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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE (AMS)

 NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM (NOP)

 + + + + +

 MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIC 

 STANDARDS BOARD (NOSB)

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY

 APRIL 27, 2010

 + + + + +

 The National Organic Standards Board

convened at 8:00 a.m. in the Heidrick Ag

History Center located at 1962 Hays Lane,

Woodland, California, Daniel G. Giacomini,

Chairperson, presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

 DANIEL G. GIACOMINI, Chairperson

 TRACY MIEDEMA, Vice-Chairperson

 TINA ELLOR, Secretary

 STEVE DeMURI

 JOE DICKSON 

 JAY FELDMAN 

 BARRY FLAMM 

 JOHN FOSTER 

 WENDY FULWIDER 

 JENNIFER M. HALL 

 KATRINA HEINZE 

 JEFFREY W. MOYER 

 ANNETTE RIHERD

 JOE SMILLIE
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STAFF PRESENT:

 MILES McEVOY

 JUDY RAGONESI

 VALERIE FRANCES

 ARTHUR NEAL

 MARK BRADLEY

 LARS CRAIL

 SHANNON NALLY

 DR. KERRY SMITH

 DR. LISA BRINES
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:03 a.m.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: We'll call

4 the meeting back out of recess, and today is

5 our day for public comment. I would restart

6 by reading part of our policy statement

7 regarding public comment. We've already gone

8 through the sign-up process, so we'll skip

9 that, but every person will be given five

10 minutes to speak, unless otherwise indicated

11 by the Chair. Persons must give their name

12 and affiliation for the record at the

13 beginning of their comment. A person may

14 submit a written proxy to the NOSB or NOP

15 requesting that another person speak on his or

16 her behalf. The proxy request should be

17 submitted in writing to the Executive

18 Director, and include the -- 

19 (Off the record comments.)

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: So, you

21 get five minutes, you give your name and

22 affiliation at the beginning of your comment. 
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1 Proxies should be submitted to the Executive

2 Director, include the name of the presenter

3 and topics, who will be for the proxy, and

4 limited to five minutes. No person will be

5 allowed to speak during the public comment

6 period for more than 10 minutes, unless

7 otherwise indicated by the Chair. Individuals

8 providing public comment will refrain from any

9 personal attacks, and from remarks that would

10 impugn the character of any individual. 

11 We have nine -- as a count from

12 yesterday, we have, and I don't know if this

13 is a new list or not, we have 96 people signed

14 up for public comment today. At five minutes

15 per person, 12 people an hour, that is eight

16 hours of solid public comment. At six minutes

17 per person, that goes to nine and a half hours

18 of public comment, so I am a complete believer

19 that this is one of the most important things

20 we do on this Board as a practice of our

21 American democracy in the organic world. I

22 think the only thing more important is the
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1 written public comment, which is where the

2 people who can't come to the meeting have

3 access to the Board. After that, this is the

4 most important, at least in my mind. 

5 I don't want to have to go to a

6 three-minute cutoff, but I would like everyone

7 to be aware of what the time constraints for

8 today do mean, both from those presenting when

9 your time limit is called and up, and Board

10 members for asking questions. I don't want t

11 put any kind of restrictions or constraints on

12 anyone, but I want everyone to be aware of

13 what that time situation implies.

14 So, do we have any other

15 statements or comments, or anything? Valerie,

16 are we good to go this morning? Anyone else

17 have anything for us before we get started?

18 Oh, we have -- thank you. Okay. 

19 We do have one statement, I believe from the

20 Materials Committee or the Joint Committee, I

21 believe that hopefully will address some of

22 the issues that you'll be talking about today.
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1 MS. HEINZE: The Joint Committee

2 wants to thank everyone who submitted written

3 public comment. We met last night. Well,

4 we've met many times over the last few in

5 reaction to the public comment, so we met last

6 night and voted on a new second sentence for

7 the definition of chemical change. We're

8 changing -- getting this ahead of time because

9 we know that classification of materials

10 requires some thinking, so we wanted to get it

11 up there and in front of folks who have put so

12 much thought on this topic, so the Joint

13 Committee voted unanimously to support the

14 second sentence to address the public comment.

15 I will read it, but, again, we

16 wanted everyone to have a chance -- I hope

17 you're all writing it down so you have time to

18 think about it. We would love some public

19 comment on it today, but, again, we'll be

20 presenting it and discussing it more broadly

21 during my presentation tomorrow. So, if you

22 have particular thoughts that we should be
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1 aware of, that would be good, as well.

2 The second sentence is,

3 "Processing is defined in 205.2 of

4 Agricultural Products using materials allowed

5 on the applicable section of the National

6 List, 205.601 for crops, 603 for livestock,

7 605-606 for handling, does not result in

8 chemical changes that applies to

9 classification of materials." 

10 Our intent with this sentence is

11 two-fold. One, we heard a ton of public

12 comment in November that our original

13 definition for chemical change, which was the

14 first sentence, went too far, and would have

15 classified organic agricultural inputs that

16 had been processed with non-synthetics, or

17 synthetics, or even other agricultural inputs

18 using lab processes would have classified

19 those as synthetic, so we needed to address

20 that. So, then we came up with a sentence to

21 do that. Then we got public comment that said

22 that went too far, and would have allowed
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1 mixing if non-synthetics in crops and

2 livestock, so this is our attempt to address

3 that. So, again, wanted you to see it, so you

4 had time to think about it. Thanks.

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

6 So, that, hopefully -- we tried to deal with

7 the majority of the written public comment. 

8 We'll see how that satisfies the oral. Also,

9 I apologize right now. I'm sure there will be

10 names that I will completely and totally botch

11 today, whether from unfamiliarity, to

12 tiredness. When you deal with this long of a

13 public comment, it becomes a bit of a, for

14 lack of a better term, a time warp, so when

15 we're dealing with our jump to the left, and

16 step to the right, it sometimes could be

17 possible. And someone with the last name of

18 Giacomini, I went through almost 20 years of

19 school with the first day of class my name was

20 Dan G, here, so I understand fouling up names,

21 and I apologize for it, but it's probably

22 unavoidable. So, anything else before we
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1 start? Valerie.

2 MS. FRANCES: Just a reminder, for

3 those of you who do, or do not know the drill,

4 when you're called you're on deck, and if you

5 have written materials, bring them then,

6 because I can't handle stacks of written

7 materials and figure out whose is what. So,

8 just when you're on deck be ready, and the

9 person who is up there will be talking anyway. 

10 You'll be next, and I'll pass things out. All

11 right?

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Also, for

13 our five minutes, we have a one-minute sign,

14 and a stop sign. And I believe the buzzer

15 will also go with the stop sign, so in case

16 you're so involved in your public comment,

17 hopefully, that just the buzzer will be enough

18 to pull you back to reality of the world. 

19 So, as we start, Peggy Miars from

20 CCOF is first, with a proxy, and Alexis

21 Randolph is on deck with a proxy, and Gary

22 Middleton in the hole.
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1 MS. MIARS: Good morning. I do

2 have a proxy, however, I doubt that I'll use

3 it. I'm Peggy Miars, Executive Director of

4 California Certified Organic Farmers. CCOF

5 represents more than 2,100 certified organic

6 operations, and about 350 individual

7 supporting members. We certify about 80

8 percent of the organic farmland in California.

9 Those of you who have been on the

10 Board have heard me over the last couple of

11 years at each meeting urge this meeting to be

12 held on the West Coast. So, I've waited a

13 long time to say this, welcome to the great

14 State of California. I understand this is the

15 first time the NOSB has met in California for

16 about 10 years, so we're glad to have you

17 back. 

18 We've excited to have you here

19 because California is so critical to the

20 organic industry. According to the National

21 Ag Statistic Services 2008 Organic Production

22 Survey, nearly 20 percent of the nation's
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1 certified organic farms are here in

2 California, and our state produced over $1.1

3 billion of organic ag products in 2008, which

4 represents more than 36 percent of US organic

5 production.

6 I think I've got a different

7 audience here than you usually see in

8 Washington, D.C., and I encourage you to take

9 this road show, excuse me, this show on the

10 road around the country.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MS. MIARS: Well, maybe it's a

13 road show, I don't know, to expose the NOSB to

14 people who would not otherwise be able to trek

15 to D.C. And, as you know, at these meetings,

16 we typically hear from certifiers, consumer

17 groups, manufacturers, ingredient suppliers,

18 and so forth, and then the occasional farmer. 

19 And I've heard Board members say how much you 

20 appreciate hearing from farmers, from the

21 people who are actually impacted by many of

22 the decisions that we make. So, CCOF has
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1 encouraged our members to participate in this

2 meeting, and we encouraged them to submit

3 written comments, which I know they did. 

4 We've encouraged them to sign up for public

5 comments, which I believe they did, and we

6 encouraged them to just simply show up and

7 watch the proceedings, because it's a

8 fantastic learning experience. And I know

9 that I've seen some CCOF members here who I

10 have not seen at NOSB meetings before.

11 In fact, looking out at the

12 audience, I'd say probably half of the faces

13 are ones that I've never seen at an NOSB

14 meeting before, so I think that's fantastic. 

15 And, also, you'll see the majority of CCOF's

16 office staff here today, because it is such a

17 great experience. They'll be here tomorrow,

18 as well. They can see the transparent NOSB

19 process, and it's a great experience seeing

20 the big picture of organic, and it gives their

21 jobs context.

22 We want to invite Board members
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1 and everyone else here in the room to join

2 CCOF at our Welcome to California Reception

3 tomorrow night in the museum, which is across

4 the lobby. I'm sorry, I keep forgetting what

5 day it is. I thought it was Wednesday, or

6 Monday, I don't know. It is tonight, 7

7 tonight. Okay. 

8 So, now on to comments regarding

9 an actual agenda item. We at CCOF are pleased

10 to see the Sunset Review Process being

11 addressed for clarity, since there seems to be

12 different opinions about what Sunset actually

13 means. We support the Policy Development

14 Committee's Option 3, the Sunset fees at a

15 hybrid approach. We agree that industry

16 should bear the burden of proof that a

17 material should remain on the National List,

18 and that the NOSB should bear the burden to

19 show that materials should be removed from the

20 list. We also agree that synthetics should not

21 be easy to get on the list, nor should they be

22 easy to keep on the list. 
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1 And, lastly, in response to the

2 Committee's question about annotations, we

3 believe that the NOSB should be able to revise

4 annotations for listed materials during the

5 Sunset Process. Thank you so much for your

6 attention.

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

8 questions for Peggy? Seeing none, thank you.

9 MS. MIARS: Thank you.

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Alexis

11 Randolph, Gary Middleton on deck, Grace

12 Marroquin in the hole.

13 MS. RANDOLPH: Good morning. I'm 

14 Alexis Randolph from QAI Organic Certification

15 Agency in San Diego, California, and I'd like

16 to thank the National Organic Standards Board

17 for this opportunity to provide comments. 

18 This is my personal first opportunity in front

19 of the NOSB, so I'm very grateful for that.

20 A good chunk of the majority of my

21 comments are going to be about the

22 classification of materials. QAI appreciates
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1 the Joint Materials and Handling Committee's

2 continued work on this very complex issue. We

3 do feel that the majority of our questions

4 raised at public comment in 2009 have been

5 answered with the new guidance document.

6 Because of the new definition

7 which was just posted, I'm going to withhold

8 many of my comments this morning, and then

9 take that into consideration, submit written

10 comments later if I feel it's necessary. 

11 We did want to draw the Board's

12 attention to the public comment submitted by

13 Oregon Tilth in writing previously, as well as

14 others. It sounds like the NOSB took those

15 comments very seriously, and we appreciate

16 that. We recognize the Committee has stated

17 that the term "significant" and "insignificant

18 level" still need defining, and we support

19 that effort. QAI already uses this NOSB draft

20 proposal as a tool for reviewing materials,

21 and we find it to be very effective. 

22 Before the definition was reposted
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1 this morning, our intent was to encourage the

2 implementation of the Classification of

3 Materials Policy and Guidance document

4 provided it was restricted for the use of

5 handlers' scope only under the NOP. We would

6 still like to encourage the implementation of

7 this policy, specifically for handlers at this

8 time. And, of course, we'll reevaluate the

9 definition when time allows. It's a little

10 bit tough being second speaker, didn't have

11 time to do that. 

12 I'll conclude my comments on the

13 materials at that point, and move on to the

14 discussion document on livestock stocking

15 densities. We are very supportive of the

16 Livestock Committee's concern for animal

17 welfare, and intentions to bring clarity to

18 certain concepts of the regulation, such as

19 natural behavior. As a certifier, detailed

20 regulatory requirements are always welcomed. 

21 They allow certifiers to verify compliance to

22 the regulation, rather than debate the intent
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1 of the regulation.

2 At this point, however, we do not

3 feel enough data regarding the current

4 stocking rates in the US have been collected

5 or analyzed by the NOSB to determine the

6 impact on the organic industry of implementing

7 the stocking the way it's being discussed. 

8 Based on the US-Canada Equivalency Agreement,

9 certifiers have already begun the process of

10 collecting this data, and QAI asks the NOSB to

11 allow certifiers ample time to finish this

12 process, and provide data to the NOP for

13 analysis.

14 Regarding the discussion document

15 on the USDA's seal and the Natives Organic

16 labeling category, QAI fully supports

17 regulatory updates that would help consumers

18 distinguish between the organic and native

19 organic claims. However, QAI disagrees with

20 the USDA's seal or variation of the seal on

21 native organic products to accomplish this. 

22 The USDA seal on 100 percent organic and
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1 organic products has raised the bar, and

2 expanded the organic industry by requiring

3 more ingredients obtain certification in order

4 for new products to achieve the USDA gold

5 standard. 

6 To answer your specific question,

7 what regulatory approaches would facilitate

8 stronger consumer recognition of the native

9 organic category, QAI would like to encourage

10 the CACC to review Section 205.304 of the

11 regulation with attention on the may versus

12 must language in regards to the primary made

13 with organic claim, and the percent organic

14 statement. For example, with the primary

15 claim of made with organic ingredients being

16 optional, a percent claim of X percent organic

17 ingredients can be used strategically to

18 compete with products making a primary claim

19 of certified organic.

20 With that said, we understand the

21 NOP already intends to issue clarification

22 regarding labeling in the native organic
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1 category, with the intention of reducing

2 consumer confusion, and we look forward to

3 receiving that information. As always, we

4 hope directives regarding labels are

5 implemented with adequate grace period for

6 operators to bring labels into compliance

7 without suffering financial loss. 

8 Regarding atmospheric gases and

9 the 100 percent organic claim, QAI agrees with

10 the CAC Committee that atmospheric gases do

11 not meet the definition of processing aids or

12 ingredients. These inert gases do not mix

13 with the product and evaporate when packaging

14 is opened. We support the recommendation that

15 the use of atmospheric gases will be allowed

16 as a packaging aid for products making 100

17 percent organic claim.

18 Regarding the National List and

19 Sunset of materials, QAI has reviewed the

20 recommendations to renew materials under all

21 sections of the National List. We are in

22 agreement with each Committee's recommendation
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1 for lead listing of materials due to Sunset. 

2 In summary, QAI supports the immediate

3 implementation of the Materials Classification

4 Policy with a limited scope for products used

5 by handler operations. QAI supports the

6 intention behind the Livestock Committee

7 discussion document on stocking rates, but do

8 not feel enough data has been collected on the

9 current stocking rates in the US to make any

10 recommendation at this time. QAI looks

11 forward to no further action being taken with

12 regards to a USDA seal on made with organic

13 products. QAI supports the use of atmospheric

14 gases and packaging aids in products making a

15 100 percent organic claim, and QAI supports

16 the relisting of all materials on the National

17 List as currently proposed by the NOSB. Thank

18 you for considering my comments.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

20 questions? Thank you. One other little

21 housecleaning, for lack of a better term. It

22 seems that yesterday with the people on this
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1 room on the internet, we had a -- there was an

2 area meltdown of the wireless support, similar

3 to the blackout of Manhattan, so they have

4 requested us not to have everyone on line at

5 this time, so we've having to -- I guess we're

6 just asking that the public not be online

7 unless absolutely necessary, or however it's

8 to be done. We just don't want to have that

9 same sort of a disaster again today, because

10 it was more than just this building. It was

11 supposed to have been in like a two or three

12 block area.

13 (Laughter.)

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: I'm told

15 it's already crashed on us. Okay. Gary

16 Middleton, Grace Marroquin on deck, Liana

17 Hoodes is in the hole.

18 MR. MIDDLETON: I'm Gary Middleton

19 and I represent Middleton Organic Orchards. 

20 I would like to first take the opportunity to

21 thank the Advisory Board for the opportunity

22 to testify in regards to this issue. Again,
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1 I'm Gary Middleton. I represent Middleton

2 Organic Orchards in Eltopia. I represent

3 Organic Tree Fruit Growers in the State of

4 Washington, Oregon, and Idaho, as well. I am

5 the owner and grower of 100-acre orchard in

6 which we grow organic apples, cherries, and

7 blueberries. 

8 At issue is our 16-acre block of

9 Gala apples. Over the past five to seven

10 years, fire blight has disseminated

11 approximately five to six acres throughout

12 this block of apples which equates to 4,000

13 trees and a financial annual loss of 75,000. 

14 Fortunately, we've had the opportunity to

15 utilize microshield, or the losses certainly

16 would have been much greater. We have

17 replanted with a somewhat resistant stock Bud

18 9 with, unfortunately, only marginal success. 

19 The one rootstock that has resisted to Fire

20 blight is Geneva type rootstock, however, it

21 is difficult for nurseries to propagate,

22 therefore, availability is limited, at best. 
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1 According to Dr. Aldwinckle from Cornell

2 University, Geneva, rootstocks are known to be

3 resist to direct shoot inoculation with the 

4 amylovora strains. It was, however, not known

5 if these apple rootstocks are resistant to

6 infection through other avenues under orchard

7 conditions. The cost to replant 16 acres of

8 such a rootstock is extremely cost prohibitive

9 for a small family farm. 

10 It is important to note that not

11 all varieties of apples are susceptible to

12 Fire blight. Pink Lady, Gala, Fujis are

13 susceptible, especially on dwarfing rootstocks

14 such as M.9, and M.26. Fire blight infection

15 in susceptible apple rootstocks, such as 9 and

16 26, frequently results in necrosis of the

17 rootstock crown and tree death. Fire blight

18 infection of rootstock can occur by several

19 different avenues, including infection of

20 rootstock suckers, basipetal internal movement

21 of bacteria through healthy scion tissue, and

22 direct infection of rootstock crown through
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1 breaks or wounds in the bark. 

2 The infection period primarily

3 occurs during bloom time when microshield is

4 used; however, Fire blight carries throughout

5 the entire season. New shoots or branches are

6 very susceptible when Fire blight has been

7 prevalent in the orchard. Spreading of the

8 disease occurs with wind, rain, heavy dews and

9 insect transmittal. We utilize the WSU Cougar

10 Blight models which measure degree days, leave

11 bloom wetness, and dew points to assure we

12 apply antibiotics only when infection period

13 is high to extreme. A close monitoring of

14 these models allow us to minimize

15 applications. There would not be widespread

16 use of oxytetracycline, as there are only a

17 few of the many rootstocks grown. 

18 According to the Department of

19 Plant Pathology, Oregon State University,

20 antibiotic use in plant agriculture

21 constitutes less than one-half of 1 percent of

22 total antibiotic use in the United States,
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1 with the major use of controlling Fire blights

2 in home fruits. Streptomycin is used in plant

3 agriculture for bacterial disease control,

4 particularly against Fire blight in home fruit

5 orchards. 

6 We have utilized bacteria control

7 such as Blight Ban and Bloomtime with

8 extremely nominal results. They are not

9 viable options; however, we still utilize them

10 to help suppress the disease. We are

11 constantly monitoring the orchard, cutting out

12 Fire blight strikes, as needed. Many times an

13 entire tree becomes affected, and we have no

14 choice but to remove the tree. It is not

15 uncommon and very likely for adjoining trees

16 to become affected, as well.

17 We elected to forego our Europe Ag

18 certification on the Gala bug, because without

19 antibiotics the entire orchard would have to

20 be destroyed. This is not a preferable

21 option, but rather an economical survival

22 option. It is important to note streptomycin
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1 was utilized in Europe from `93 to `96 to help

2 suppress Fire blight in orchards. However,

3 what is of more interest is that Germany had

4 a severe Fire blight problem in 2008, and has

5 allowed the use of streptomycin in 2009. In

6 2009, a high Fire blight risk was also

7 reported in the UK, and the use of

8 streptomycin in home fruit tree nurseries has

9 been allowed in Switzerland for the first

10 time, because there trees are considered to be

11 pathogen risk spores. 

12 Geographical areas, climatic

13 conditions, and weather conditions play a

14 major factor in Fire blight disease models

15 infection susceptibility. When we planted our

16 Gala block in 1995, Fire blight was not an

17 issue in the northwest. Since 2004, the Fire

18 blight has become a rapid enemy to dwarfing

19 rootstocks in select varieties. Without

20 products such as microshield, it is highly

21 likely that our entire Gala block will be

22 destroyed. Replanting is not an economical
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1 alternative, even if the Geneva rootstock was

2 available. Like other orchards, we are

3 anxiously anticipated the organic products to

4 suppress Fire blight. However, are not aware

5 of any of these products at this time, or in

6 the near future. 

7 I cannot emphasize enough how we

8 are concerned about the integrity of the

9 organic products we provide to consumers. We

10 take pride in ownership in the fruit that we

11 produce. This is a complex matter at best,

12 and there are no easy solutions, so with

13 confidence, I can say that with stringent

14 monitoring, and limited use of antibiotics, we

15 can continue to move forward until a true

16 organic solution becomes available. Thank

17 you.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

19 Questions? Katrina.

20 MS. HEINZE: Thank you very much

21 for your comments. Would you be willing to

22 provide Valerie with those in writing so we
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1 could have them to reference?

2 MR. MIDDLETON: Yes, I did provide

3 those. Thank you. And, actually, it's a

4 little bit more in depth, because I had to

5 scratch a lot of stuff to get it in five

6 minutes.

7 MS. HEINZE: I understand. Thank

8 you. 

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe.

10 MR. SMILLIE: Sort of off topic,

11 but do you use pheromone mating disruptives in

12 your practice?

13 MR. MIDDLETON: Yes, we do.

14 MR. SMILLIE: Right. I just

15 wanted to clarify that. And has that helped

16 you a great deal to grow organic apples?

17 MR. MIDDLETON: It's absolutely

18 been essential. We've been utilizing the

19 mating disruption for about 10 years, and it

20 certainly reduces the amount of opportunity,

21 or need to spray other products. And it has

22 worked extremely well in the northwest. 
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1 MR. SMILLIE: And do you find that

2 this synthetic pesticide has enabled you to

3 grow more organic -- get more growers growing

4 organic?

5 MR. MIDDLETON: You're talking

6 about the pheromones?

7 MR. SMILLIE: Yes.

8 MR. MIDDLETON: Yes. The

9 pheromones certainly eliminate, or provide the

10 opportunity for many other orchardists to grow

11 organically, because they can suppress the

12 amount of -- available throughout the

13 orchards, and it's been a huge tool, and

14 benefit to not only organic, but also

15 conventional growers. Conventional growers

16 are using that substantially to reduce their

17 amount of synthetic sprays. 

18 MR. SMILLIE: Thank you. 

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Tina.

20 MS. ELLOR: When the peracetic

21 acid that we approved last fall goes to

22 rulemaking, do you see that as a viable
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1 option?

2 MR. MIDDLETON: What was that

3 again?

4 MS. ELLOR: When the peracetic

5 acid that we approved at the fall meeting goes

6 to rulemaking, do you see that as a viable

7 option for at least to -- 

8 MR. MIDDLETON: Well, at this

9 time, I don't know that it will be. I'm not

10 familiar, I have not utilized that product. 

11 You're saying the peracetic - 

12 MS. ELLOR: Peracetic acid was

13 presented to us as an alternative. It is

14 approved, but it has not been through

15 rulemaking yet. So, maybe I'll ask you again.

16 MR. MIDDLETON: Is that for Fire

17 blight?

18 MS. ELLOR: For Fire blight, yes.

19 MR. MIDDLETON: Yes. And we've

20 tried, like I said, the natural bacterias and

21 whatnot, and they're very expensive, and we

22 have had no success with them at all. 
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1 Although, when you're losing your trees, you

2 get pretty desperate and you'll use anything. 

3 But I have not seen or heard of anything that

4 supports that product.

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

6 Thank you. Grace Marroquin, Liana is on deck,

7 and Rod Crossley in the hole.

8 MR. SIEGEL: My name is -- 

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: You are

10 not Grace.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. SIEGEL: I'm not Grace, no. 

13 My name is Richard Siegel. I'm a lawyer from

14 Washington, D.C., and I'm counsel for

15 Marroquin Organic International. Grace

16 Marroquin is on her way, but she's been

17 delayed, and asks the indulgence of the Board

18 for her to appear at a later time today. So,

19 I would like to just make that announcement. 

20 Thank you. 

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

22 We'll see what we can do on that. If we have
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1 any of these in the future, contact Valerie so

2 that we can do that rescheduling.

3 MR. SIEGEL: Yes, I mentioned this

4 to Valerie, and she requested that I come to

5 the mic.

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

7 Just, you take care of it so that we'll --

8 okay. Let's go Liana, and then we'll come

9 back to Grace. I believe she's coming in the

10 door. 

11 MS. HOODES: Good morning, all. 

12 I'm Liana Hoodes with the National Organic

13 Coalition. First, I would like to -- I see

14 you all have these -- to present to you the

15 National Organic Action Plan from the Margin

16 to the Mainstream Advancing Organic

17 Agriculture in the US. This is a project we

18 worked on for five plus years, and it's about

19 the big picture looking at supporting organic

20 throughout the federal government, and state

21 and local government. So, the goal of the NOAP

22 is to establish organic as the foundation for
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1 food and agriculture production systems across

2 the US So, enjoy the light reading in your

3 free time, test you on it at the end of the

4 week.

5 The National Organic Coalition is

6 a national alliance of organizations

7 representing farmers, environmentalists, other

8 organic industry members, and consumers

9 concerned about the integrity of national

10 organic standards. The goal of the Coalition

11 is to assure that organic integrity is

12 maintained, that consumers' confidence is

13 preserved, and the policies are fair,

14 equitable, and encourage diversity of

15 participation and access. 

16 I want to welcome all the new

17 members of the Board, and thank all of you for

18 your continued hard work and dedication to

19 organic. 

20 I'm going to whip through some

21 points to get to the details on others. 

22 Nanotechnology, there are others who have much
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1 better information, and you'll hear details

2 from the Center for Food Safety, Food and

3 Water Watch, and Consumers Union. We support

4 their comments on this, and we specifically

5 feel that this is an instance where organic

6 takes the lead in the precautionary principle. 

7 The issues are about big concern for health

8 and safety, and we feel all materials

9 developed with this technology should be

10 prohibited, as a whole.

11 Nanotechnology is intended to

12 change and manipulate nature at a fundamental

13 level, and we do not agree that the

14 classification of the technology as synthetic

15 would provide the protections needed at this

16 point. We're very happy to see that the NOSB

17 is taking a careful approach, and support the

18 request for more information, and a technical

19 review.

20 Sunset Review Policy, this is

21 something we've commented on a lot over the

22 years. We're very pleased to see that it's
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1 under review. We have been very disturbed

2 over the years at the mention of the vague

3 term of evergreen, and we're glad to see

4 that's no longer a part of the discussion. 

5 And we did disagree with the interpretation of

6 the Board that's now in the policy manual that

7 annotations can't be changed during Sunset

8 Review, so we encourage you to revise the

9 policy manual as soon as possible to allow you

10 to make those annotations.

11 We consider that Sunset means that

12 after five years, the material comes off.

13 Option 1 seems the clearest, but I'm intrigued

14 by Option 3. I just worry that it presents

15 you with a burden, another burden on top of

16 all the rest of your burdens to prove -- so

17 that you have to take a material off, as

18 opposed to it automatically coming off. But

19 I think I need to understand it just a bit

20 more about what Option 3 is. I do not support

21 Option 2 at all.

22 Sunset is clearly understood
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1 throughout industry and government as a

2 process that a material would stop, and we

3 really think that decisions have been made

4 from the very first Board about what materials

5 should be on the list based on the fact that

6 they understood that in five years that they

7 would come off. And if they were to come back

8 on, there would be a complete re-review. And

9 we need to stick with those -- the issues of

10 essentiality and compatibility when you're

11 reviewing the materials. And it needs to be

12 redone.

13 So, methionine is a poster child

14 for what's going wrong with Sunset. It's had

15 extensions, and we have -- there are

16 alternatives, and they're just not there yet,

17 in part, because there's no impetus for the

18 industry to go there. We heard from Walter

19 Goldstein about his research very close to

20 actual commercial production of high

21 methionine corn, and he -- because of a lack

22 of USDA grants, because they don't tend to
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1 fund corn that isn't GMO corn research, he has

2 not been able to continue that. The industry

3 should have stepped in and funded that

4 research to get to commercial availability. 

5 I don't think they did, because they didn't

6 actually think it was going to come off. 

7 There was no imperatives. This is why

8 methionine needs to come off, and we don't

9 agree with a five-year extension whatsoever. 

10 I had two comments on materials, but they'll

11 be in my written comments to you.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

13 Any questions? Okay. I think this is a good

14 example, and not to point the finger at her,

15 we know you appreciate being here, and we

16 certainly appreciate you coming, but we would

17 really appreciate that the majority of your

18 time is spent on your substantive comments. 

19 That's going to be your best use of time, and

20 it's our best use of time over a long day. 

21 So, I don't -- I want to sound as polite with

22 that, as possible, but I'm sure Liana wishes
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1 that she had spent that time talking about

2 those materials, rather than saying how much

3 she liked being here. So, next up, Rod

4 Crossley. I think Grace is in the room. We'll

5 slide Grace in, and Kim Dietz in the hole.

6 MR. CROSSLEY: Good morning. I'm

7 Rod Crossley. I was on the Board that put

8 together the materials in the 2000 list. When

9 we started that, the only thing we had to work

10 from was the -- when we started that, the only

11 thing we had to work from was the Act. And

12 that was our guiding line for both the

13 comments to the Secretary, and for the

14 National List. We also had organic production

15 standards established by private certifiers,

16 and we had an industry standard at that time

17 which has definitely gone away, which was that

18 if you could get it organically, that was what

19 you had to use. And if you couldn't get it

20 organically, could you get it naturally? And

21 if you couldn't get it naturally, could you

22 get a synthetic, and how fast could you go
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1 back up the hill? 

2 The Processing Committee was one

3 of the three committees that the Board

4 established, Crops, Livestock, and Process. 

5 The Processing Committee had the fortunate

6 ability to travel around the United States

7 meeting with private industry, meeting with

8 certifiers, meeting with the public to

9 basically find out what they're doing. What

10 are you doing? What materials are you using? 

11 How are you keeping records? What do you

12 think of our OSP drafts, et cetera? And after

13 much discussion at the Board meeting, the

14 Committee and the public, we came up with a

15 list of 130 processing materials that needed

16 to be reviewed with a TAP, because remember

17 the rules, the Act states that any material

18 put on the list must, or prohibited on the

19 list, must go through a TAP review. There's

20 no exception to that part of the rule at all.

21 The problem was that we realized

22 that there were a bunch of things on there
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1 that we knew were natural, but based upon the

2 definition of synthetic, we had to go and

3 review them. Cornstarch is a good example of

4 that. It goes through, as we talked about

5 yesterday, it goes through an acid bath. We

6 were going down the cornstarch side, not the

7 liquor side, and we were wondering if the corn

8 physically changed. It doesn't, so now -- but

9 we had to do a TAP review to prove it, and

10 then vote on it, and add it to the list. So,

11 that was -- an after Orlando, we issued a

12 directive called a Progress Report on the

13 Proposed National List. And, basically, what

14 that did was it outlined what we were going to

15 do, what we did, how it worked, and what we

16 were going to do, the steps we were going to

17 take going forward, which Miles alluded to

18 yesterday in that we did two reviews. You did

19 this synthetic, and do you add it? And if

20 it's processing, do you -- is it going to go

21 for all the processing, or only for made with? 

22 So, there are two points in that -- and, also,
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1 we issued a preamble. I'm getting lost.

2 We also issued a preamble of the

3 proposed list. I want to read two pieces of

4 it. "The expectation to be embodied in the

5 National Organic Program Standards is that

6 cultural, biological, and other management

7 practices will be sought to replace any

8 material input, synthetic or natural, as the 

9 organic production system evolves over time." 

10 And for processing it says that, "Non-organic

11 agriculture ingredients may be used in organic

12 foods only when an acceptable organic product

13 form is commercially unavailable. 

14 Justification for the use of non-organic

15 ingredients, as well as the efforts to develop

16 organic sources for non-organic ingredients

17 must be addressed within the handling plan,

18 and the record keeping requirements of the

19 rule."

20 After Indianapolis, we had voted

21 on 166 materials. Oh, God. We had voted on

22 166 materials, and I'll cut to the chase. 
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1 There are 28 materials that we considered to

2 be natural. We put those on -- you put them

3 on 605. They should be on 606. That's where

4 we expected them to be. And, by the way, we

5 expected those to be natural, to be used as

6 organic. But the other thing that's bothering

7 me is that on the National List at the present

8 moment is a material that has never gone

9 through a TAP review, and that's flavors. The

10 Board only issued a memorandum for the use of

11 natural flavors in organics at Austin, so I

12 would request that you remove that material

13 and put it through a TAP review to see if it

14 comes back on as a synthetic, or as a natural. 

15 Thank you.

16 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

17 questions?

18 MR. CROSSLEY: I'm sorry.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No, that's

20 all right. I don't think we have any, anyway. 

21 Okay, so we're fine. Grace Marroquin, Kim

22 Dietz on deck, Kelly Shea in the hole.
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1 MS. MARROQUIN: Good morning. My

2 name is Grace Marroquin. I'm President and

3 CEO of Marroquin Organic International based

4 in Santa Cruz, California. We are importers

5 and suppliers of organic ingredients since

6 1991. I would like to thank the 10 Board

7 members who are continuing to serve, and I

8 welcome the new five members, and I

9 congratulate you.

10 For those of you who have seen me

11 before at the NOS meetings, please indulge me. 

12 I've been addressing the Board at almost every

13 meeting since 2004. And once again, I'm here

14 to talk about our favorite topic, organic

15 yeast. 

16 Organic yeast is produced in

17 Germany by a well-established company, Agrano. 

18 Agrano has been NOP-certified since 2003, and

19 until November 2008, we sold Agrano's organic

20 yeast to a small group of customers in the

21 United States. Then the NOP received a

22 complaint, and cited Agrano with a non-
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1 compliance. The NOP claimed that yeast could

2 not be marketed as organic, because it was

3 listed on the National List as non4 agricultural. Agrano filed an appeal to the

5 AMS, on March 2nd, 2010 under new management

6 lifted that non-compliance, and we are

7 certainly grateful to the NOP for this

8 decision. On April 15th, the AMS formally

9 closed the appeal as moot, and made the appeal

10 as moot. The NOP now recognizes again that

11 yeast can be certified as organic. Then why

12 are we here before this Board once again? 

13 Because we still have a loophole in the

14 National List, and the Board is in charge of

15 this National List. 

16 Yeast is still classified on the

17 National List as a non-agricultural substance

18 on Section 205.605(a). This means organic

19 food processors are allowed to use

20 conventional yeast freely as an ingredient in

21 their 5 percent non-organic content. Food

22 processors do not have to look for an organic
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1 version. There is no organic preference

2 applied when it comes to yeast, not fair. As

3 a result, the vast majority of organic

4 processors continue to bypass and use

5 conventional yeast. If yeast would be listed

6 on 205.606 as an agricultural product,

7 processors would have to use organic yeast, if

8 it were commercially available. This would be

9 a gain for the organic integrity of processed

10 foods sold as organic.

11 In fact, the reason Agrano

12 developed organic yeast was because European

13 organic community objected to the synthetic

14 chemicals involved in conventional yeast. 

15 These include ammonia, sulfuric acid, caustic

16 soda lye, synthetic vitamins, and synthetic

17 antifoaming agents. The waste water from

18 conventional yeast product is contaminated,

19 and must be treated before it's released. 

20 In organic yeast production, none

21 of these chemicals are used. The waste water

22 is pure and can be reused in organic
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1 production. In fact, we all could enjoy a

2 glass of it right now. If you were to use the

3 waste water from conventional yeast, surely

4 you would be in the hospital. 

5 Turning now to organic yeast, it

6 does not use synthetic chemicals, as I've

7 stated. It is grown on a substrate of organic

8 grains. If there were a robust organic yeast

9 industry here in the United States, then

10 organic farms would produce these grains

11 needed to make the organic yeast. The entire

12 organic sector would benefit.

13 Yeast companies are watching this

14 issue closely. I can assure you of this,

15 because as soon as yeast is transferred to

16 205.606 they will meet the challenge, and the

17 demand for organic yeast. There is no doubt. 

18 The EU first recognized organic yeast in its

19 organic regulations in 2007. Under the

20 current EU regulations, all yeast in organic

21 processed foods must be organic, must be

22 organic, as of December 31st, 2013. They gave
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1 them this grace period, so to speak, to meet

2 this challenge. This is causing Agrano, and

3 other producers, to increase their capacity. 

4 However, the picture in the United States is

5 far different. There will be no incentive for

6 Agrano, or any other yeast company, to build

7 capacity in this country for organic yeast

8 until the National List gives yeast organic

9 preference. 

10 In addition, if the NOP does not

11 require organic yeast, this could lead to a

12 trade issue with EU, and I know right now

13 we're engaged in these talks for equivalency. 

14 We look forward to this fall meeting. Yes, I

15 do, when the Handling Committee intends to

16 have a recommendation on the petition to

17 reclassify yeast as an agricultural product. 

18 In closing, I would like to thank

19 the Joint Material and Handling Committee for

20 its efforts. I know it's been a long road,

21 and I know that we all are working towards the

22 same goal, at least I hope. I know, I know,
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1 I really do. And we look forward, we, I look

2 forward to seeing you in the fall. Thank you.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions

4 for Grace?

5 MS. MARROQUIN: Yes?

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe.

7 MR. SMILLIE: Bring the champagne.

8 MS. MARROQUIN: Oh, good. Surely,

9 I will. Thank you, everybody.

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

11 Kim Dietz, Kelly Shea on deck, Patty Lovera in

12 the hole.

13 MS. DIETZ: I had to bring my

14 water, because I'm losing my voice, so I

15 apologize if I sound hoarse, and hopefully I

16 make it through. Just a little bit of

17 housekeeping before, if I may. We're bringing

18 lunch in. We have a caterer bringing boxed

19 lunches, so if you have not placed your order,

20 and you'd like to, you have about 15 minutes

21 to get lunch orders in. So, please see me out 

22 in the lobby after my presentation. And
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1 welcome to California. 

2 Okay. Good morning. I can't see

3 my presentation here. My name is Kim Dietz,

4 and I'd like to welcome all the new Board

5 members, and thank each and every one of you

6 for your service. And I just have to say

7 that, Dan. For those new Board members, I

8 served on the NOSB as Handler Representative

9 from 2000 to 2005. During that time, I was

10 Materials Chair, as well as Board Secretary,

11 as well as one of the founding members of

12 OMRI, a Materials Working Group.

13 I worked for Smuckers Natural

14 Foods for 26 years, and today my comments are

15 really my own comments based on my work with

16 the Board, and not those of my employer. I

17 have submitted comments in regulations.gov

18 under Smuckers, and you can read those, if you

19 like.

20 I'm going to start with Sunset,

21 and get into definitions of insignificant, and

22 end up with classification, if I have time. 
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1 So, yesterday Miles urged the Board to use

2 caution with regard to Sunset. I agree with

3 him, that this is a timely process that must

4 be met within the five-year time period. Your

5 role on this Board is to insure that Sunset is

6 conducted timely, and efficiently. I

7 encourage this Board to take into

8 consideration the work that was put into the

9 Sunset process by previous Board members,

10 industry, and the National Organic Program.

11 The issues emerging in the Policy

12 Committee's 2010 Sunset Review document are

13 not new. In fact, if you read the minutes, we

14 deliberated over those exact same issues,

15 annotation change, extensive material review,

16 how much of the criteria do we need to do the

17 re-reviews? I'm confident that we did the

18 best that we could to provide you with the

19 tools that you need for the tremendous task of

20 Sunset Review. 

21 Below are a few historical

22 highlights of the process. I just wanted to
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1 remind you that in 2002, we started, I was on

2 the Board at the time, I was Chair of

3 Materials, and we started working on the

4 Sunset process. In 2004, Ms. Rosalie Koenig

5 was Chair of Materials, and she brought a

6 document before the Board on the Sunset Review

7 process. During that same year, the NOP

8 brought their version of the Sunset Review

9 process. Later on, it took about three years

10 to evolve through this, but once we did, we

11 had a joint agreement on what the Sunset

12 process should be. It was a hybrid approach

13 between the National Organic Program and the

14 review of the Board, and it was voted on

15 unanimously by the Board, and that is the

16 Sunset process that is currently in your

17 policy book today.

18 I do agree that over time things

19 need to change, and that you guys need the

20 tools that you need to do a thorough review. 

21 I wanted to just quote something, because,

22 believe it or not, back in 2002, 3, and 4, we
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1 knew that 2012 Sunset was coming. And we

2 thought that it would be a train wreck if we

3 didn't have a process in place that ran smooth

4 so that you could review these 186 materials

5 that were coming up for Sunset. So, I just

6 wanted to quote something, and there's more to

7 it before this, but "Understand that in 2012,

8 if we're all still here, how many of us are

9 still here -- this big clump that became

10 active October 21st, `02, this big clump of

11 materials has to go through it again, plus any

12 materials that are voted on on an annual

13 basis." So, again, I guess that -- just in

14 summary, please take that into consideration.

15 I support the new Sunset

16 guidelines that were put out in the most

17 recent Federal Register asking for the OFPA

18 criteria. If you look at my public comments,

19 I did a template. I hope that -- please look

20 at that. I tried to -- it took me about a week

21 to put it together. I did a very thorough

22 job. I think that gives you more information
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1 than you've ever hard, and I think it's a

2 stepping stone to what you're looking for. I

3 support the request for new TAPs. That's not

4 new, every Board has had that opportunity, if

5 you need it.

6 I also support annotation change. 

7 We were never told you could not change an

8 annotation. We did not want to do that,

9 because we felt the annotations change need to

10 come through the petition process. As a

11 Board, we recommended that when we finalized

12 that Sunset. 

13 And, last, I do not support re14 petitioning. I think that you need to

15 transition. If you don't have enough of the

16 information that you need, then let's look at

17 it, but let's not go too far. I think you do

18 have the tools that you need. Thank you.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

20 Joe.

21 MR. SMILLIE: The current Policy

22 Committee recommendation provides three
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1 options. With your experience, and your

2 viewpoints, which of the Options -- 

3 MS. DIETZ: Well, I didn't choose

4 any of them. I choose a hybrid to one. I

5 like the current process with the ability to

6 change annotations, and the new OFPA criteria. 

7 I think that's a good step to try. If it

8 doesn't work, then let's go back at it.

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Katrina.

10 MS. HEINZE: If we were crazy

11 enough in our free time to want to go back and

12 read some current transcripts, is there one or

13 two you would draw our attention to?

14 MS. DIETZ: For the Sunset? It

15 was all in October -- actually, April 2004 and

16 October 2004. That's when the NOSB brought

17 their recommendation, and then the NOP brought

18 their's, and we voted on it in October 2004.

19 And then just lastly, I gave

20 Katrina on insignificant. I did a lot of

21 work. I scoured the CFRs, and I put a couple

22 of pages of CFR references to insignificant,
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1 and I'll give those to Valerie to give to the

2 Board.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

4 Kelly Shea, Patty Lovera on deck, Jennifer

5 Fearing in the hole.

6 MS. SHEA: Good morning,

7 everybody. That coffee out in the hallway was

8 really nice this morning. 

9 I'm Kelly Shea with White Wave

10 Foods. You have my submitted comments on the

11 agenda. I was intending to go over those

12 again, but I think in light of the surprising

13 announcement by USDA yesterday regarding new

14 thinking on the use of accessory nutrients in

15 organic food, and the subsequent press

16 release, and then Wall Street Journal article,

17 I just wanted to make a couple of comments to

18 the Board about the DHA product that's used in

19 Horizon organic milk, and to talk a little bit

20 about process.

21 So, first off, we really do want

22 to thank Miles McEvoy and the NOP for
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1 clarification, because it is always better for

2 farmers, and certifiers, and processors when

3 the requirements for organic compliance are

4 clear as a bell. And we've been asking for a

5 lot of years for USDA determinations on

6 interpretation of the regulations to be

7 published in today's news, to be sent to

8 certifiers, and available to all participants

9 in the organic community.

10 That said, changes to a published

11 USDA position that has been in place for over

12 four years, and impacts processors and their

13 farmer suppliers, needs to be implemented

14 thoughtfully. While we would have preferred

15 that the work that resulted in the position

16 outlined yesterday would have been done in a

17 transparent manner, and would have been posted

18 in advance of the meeting, we do accept it as

19 done. Last we had heard, the NOP was coming

20 to this meeting to present a document that

21 asked questions on accessory nutrients, not

22 made a declaration changing the way business
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1 has been happening. So, I would just ask the

2 Board and the program to ensure that the

3 forthcoming petitions for accessory nutrients

4 that you will get, because they're going to be

5 necessary to comply with the new thinking,

6 that they're reviewed and voted on in a timely

7 manner, and that the timeline be coordinated

8 with implementation of the new interpretation.

9 And I'd also like to note for the

10 Board that contrary to a published report, the

11 DHA product that we've used since 2007 is made

12 from algae and it's not hexane-extracted. 

13 It's extracted with alcohol. DHA in certified

14 organic products is currently in use by more

15 than a dozen different companies allowed by

16 four different USDA-accredited certification

17 agencies, and carried in stores all across the

18 nation, so we look forward to seeing the TAP

19 review that was done on the substance, and

20 commenting on that TAP review. We're not in

21 favor of TAP reviews that are done kind of the

22 Google approach, and contain erroneous
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1 information, and cite unqualified sources, so

2 we'd really like to have an opportunity to see

3 that TAP and comment on it.

4 And then, in light of the new

5 thinking on vitamins and minerals, the Board

6 may want to consider deferring their Sunset

7 vote on this listing until more clarification

8 is provided from the program, and the proper

9 annotation can be researched and decided on.

10 So with that, I'm going to end,

11 but I just need to say, because Mr. Kevin

12 Engelbert is not here today, I want to take

13 the opportunity to reiterate that we strongly

14 disagree with the recommendation for

15 clarification of 205.238 by the Livestock

16 Committee. We agree with the minority

17 opinion, Mr. Engelbert's. If an animal is

18 treated with a substance that requires a

19 withhold, that milk cannot be put in the tank

20 to be shipped, nor should it be fed to calves. 

21 Calves are only allowed to have certified

22 organic feed, and that includes milk. And
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1 milk from cows that have been treated with a

2 substance that requires a withhold, or is a

3 prohibited substance, should be disposed of,

4 and that disposal should be recorded in a

5 farm's audit record keeping. Thank you very

6 much.

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions

8 for Kelly? Tracy.

9 MS. MIEDEMA: I'd like to ask a

10 question of the Deputy Administrator in light

11 of the announcement yesterday, and in light of

12 what Kelly just brought up. Yesterday, there

13 was a reference to ample time and transition

14 time. There is also a request that the NOSB

15 help flesh out what the scope of nutrients,

16 vitamins, and minerals would be. And I

17 wondered if you could just spell out some more

18 details about what that transition time looks

19 like, and what the process would be that you

20 see.

21 MR. McEVOY: Yes. First of all, in

22 general, we would like to have these TAP
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1 reports and other information to the Board way

2 ahead of time, that we were expecting to come

3 to this meeting with just some questions and

4 information about accessory nutrients. And we

5 got the clarification from FDA really very,

6 very recently, and that's why the announcement

7 is here. Basically, as soon as we got the

8 information, we put it together in a coherent

9 fashion for presenting it to the organic

10 community. 

11 In terms of timeline, I think

12 there's a lot of information that we need to 

13 understand about how many products are out

14 there, what kind -- what are the products,

15 what's the universe of these substances, these

16 accessory nutrients that are used in organic

17 food products. And once we have a better

18 understanding of that, then we'd have a better

19 sense how long that transition would occur,

20 that timeline would be.

21 Since this was allowed by the

22 Program for understanding of the organic
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1 industry that these compounds were allowed, we

2 need to give ample time for that transition to

3 occur. We need to have ample time for

4 petitions to be received, reviewed, and

5 potentially approved by the Board, and then go

6 through the proposed final rulemaking process. 

7 So, we're probably talking about a couple of

8 years, even in an expedited process, for this

9 to work its way out of the system, or work its

10 way through the system. 

11 In terms of a draft guidance,

12 we're hoping to get that out later this

13 summer. Again, there would be a 60-day

14 comment period. After the comment period, we

15 would look at the comments, and then issue

16 final guidance, but we're looking at a couple

17 of years in terms of the transition here.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Anything

19 else for Kelly? 

20 MS. SHEA: Thank you, and thank

21 you, Miles, for that.

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 
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1 Patty Lovera, Jennifer Fearing, Urvashi

2 Rangan. 

3 MS. LOVERA: Hi, my name is Patty

4 Lovera. I work for a consumer group called

5 Food and Water Watch out of our D.C. office. 

6 We also have an office in San Francisco, and

7 we're a member of the National Organic

8 Coalition. So, I submitted more detailed

9 comments specifically on nanotechnology, but

10 I'm going to go over kind of the short version

11 of that pretty quickly.

12 So, in short, to answer the

13 questions that were in the document you put

14 out for discussion, we think that

15 intentionally engineered nanomaterials should

16 meet those questions you asked about whether

17 or not they're synthetic, but we're also

18 looking for more than that to make sure that

19 they are not part of the organic program,

20 they're not part of this market, so we're

21 looking for them to be prohibited as a group

22 of materials.
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1 In terms of what are we talking

2 about when we're talking about nanotechnology

3 and how it should be defined, I think the key

4 points are that this is an intentional process

5 of engineering materials to be on this scale

6 of one to 300 nanometers. We're not looking

7 to lump in naturally occurring things that

8 happen in other processes where you weren't

9 intending to create nanomaterials, or not

10 dependent on nanomaterials coming out of that

11 process, like homogenization, or grinding

12 flour. We're looking for an exclusion of when

13 you're intentionally creating these materials

14 on this scale. And the reason we think that's

15 important is because these materials are

16 different. They're not just smaller, they're

17 different. And to lots of the questions that

18 you had in that document, we tried to answer

19 by saying they act differently, they react

20 differently, and we need to treat them

21 differently. They're not just tiny versions

22 of their former selves. So, we put lots of
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1 things in there, in that more detailed

2 comment. I'm happy to provide copies of

3 anything that we referenced, but I think the

4 most important point is that one of the most

5 recent papers we received described

6 nanomaterials as having a novel mechanism of

7 toxicity. They act differently in our bodies. 

8 They can cross barriers that other chemicals

9 cannot, like the blood brain barrier, and cell

10 walls, and things like that. And we're

11 dealing with different types of toxicity we

12 haven't seen before. And that's why we don't

13 think it's enough to put it in this

14 classification when we're dealing with a

15 petition process for synthetic materials. We

16 want to build a wall to keep these out, and

17 deal with them as a class, that, if you're

18 intentionally creating these materials, they

19 don't have a place in organic.

20 So, I think, kind of to sum up,

21 it's just that we're looking for a more robust

22 exclusion of this than just taking it down
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1 that synthetic path, where you're going to

2 have to deal with petition after petition to

3 try to figure out which ones go on which list. 

4 I don't think that's a manageable exercise for

5 the NOSB to have to do. There's been some

6 studies that even for the EPA, or the FDA,

7 agencies that are, in theory, set up to deal

8 with things like this, it's going to take them

9 decades, and hundreds of millions of dollars

10 to start to even figure out what we're looking

11 at with these new materials. And I don't

12 think that's the venue for the NOSB to have to

13 deal with on a case-by-case basis. So, we

14 just think that's a really important issue for

15 the label, for consumers to feel good about

16 organic, and feel like it's credible, that

17 they understand that there's been an effort

18 made to keep these engineered nanomaterials

19 out of the system.

20 So, just really quickly on a

21 couple of other points, which Liana brought up

22 for the National Organic Coalition, and others
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1 will bring up, as well, later on the

2 methionine issue, this is one that the

3 consumers that we interact with, who read our

4 materials and contact us, and ask us questions

5 about labels, they're aware of it, but I think

6 they're starting to become aware of it as like

7 a proxy for a bigger discussion that hasn't

8 necessarily happened about poultry, and it's

9 a discussion about what kind of systems are we

10 using to raise organic culture, so we're

11 having conversations year after year about

12 this one specific material, methionine, and

13 they're not getting a sense that we're having

14 a discussion about, how big are these systems? 

15 Are they imitations of the confinement model

16 of conventional agriculture that more and more

17 people are looking for an alternative to, so

18 we'd like to see -- we'd like to be done with

19 this conversation about methionine and get to

20 a point where we are talking about the other

21 things you're talking about, like density, and

22 management, and breeds, are we using the right
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1 breeds? I mean, this is a system conversation

2 and we're boiling it down to a chemical

3 conversation. So, I think for consumer

4 clarity, and for the label's credibility, it's

5 time to get this out of the system as quickly

6 as possible.

7 And then, that really leads to

8 what Liana was talking also about the Sunset

9 issue. We agree that when these things

10 expire, they need to come off the list. And

11 if we're going to tell consumers that this is

12 a label that's based on continuous

13 improvement, and finding incentives to find

14 alternatives that aren't synthetic, there has

15 to be a clock that actually expires. And this

16 kind of cycle where they stay on there needs

17 to stop.

18 And then, finally, the last point

19 I'll make is that with the Made With Organic

20 label option, we think that this, again, is a

21 standard, maybe, that's missing some context

22 about how we enforce the use of the word
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1 "organic," so we'd like to see some more

2 concerted effort on enforcing the use of the

3 word "organic" before we worry about changing

4 that standard, and moving that seal to a

5 different tier. So, we would like to see some

6 reining in of the organic -- the use of the

7 word "organic" that we all see before we

8 decide whether to move that seal to a

9 different category.

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

11 Thank you. Any questions? Katrina.

12 MS. HEINZE: I just wanted to

13 thank you for your detailed comments on

14 nanotech; specifically, the proposed

15 definition. That gives us something to start

16 with, so we appreciate it.

17 MS. LOVERA: Good. Thank you.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

19 Joe.

20 MR. SMILLIE: Just a brief

21 comment. And, again, this covers a lot of

22 issues, and I appreciate everything you said. 
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1 I'm basically, in agreement. It's just when

2 you talk about synthetics, it brings up a big

3 issue. The whole of organic agriculture is

4 not anti-synthetic, and I think we're starting

5 to hear more and more people saying we've got

6 to get rid of all synthetics. And I just

7 disagree. I don't think that's where the NOSB

8 and the NOP are going. That battle was fought

9 a long time ago. All that is natural is not

10 necessarily good, and all that is synthetic is

11 not necessarily bad. And we have an

12 orchardist, Gary Middleton, talking about a

13 synthetic pheromone mating disruptor, which is

14 a synthetic pesticide under FIFRA, and it has

15 allowed organic to grow, so I just do not feel

16 that this complete use of the word "synthetic"

17 as equating bad is necessarily where we want

18 to go. Synthetics can be very beneficial to

19 the planet, and to consumers, and I just

20 wanted to make that point now, and I will try

21 to refrain from making it again. 

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Yes, I
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1 just have one -- I'd ask one point for

2 clarification on your nanotechnology comments. 

3 In the category of that intentionally created,

4 there were comments submitted of, I believe,

5 slow churn processing that intentionally

6 creates small nanosize particles to improve

7 mouthfeel. Would that fit in under your idea

8 of intentionally created, or fit in under the

9 incidental along with the grinding and --

10 general grinding and homogenization?

11 MS. LOVERA: Yes. We had a lot of

12 conversations about that particular -- I think

13 in ice cream is where it's happening, and

14 there's a lot of interest in it, and low fat,

15 trying to make low fat feel like full fat. 

16 And I think the line for us is intentional,

17 because all of these substances we're starting

18 with are known, and then when you

19 intentionally put them in this nano system

20 they behave differently. So, I think that's

21 the line. If you're intentionally going for

22 a nanoscale material because you think it will
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1 act differently -- otherwise, why would you do

2 it? -- then that puts you in the category of

3 these intentionally engineered materials that

4 we think aren't part of that. 

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

6 Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that. 

7 Thanks. Anything else? Okay. Seeing none,

8 Jennifer Fearing, Urvashi Rangan on deck,

9 Michael Hansen in the hole.

10 MS. FEARING: Good morning. My

11 name is Jennifer Fearing. I am here on behalf

12 of the Humane Society of the United States. 

13 I'm our California State Director, and on

14 behalf of our nearly 11 million supporters

15 nationwide, we are pleased to respond, and we

16 did so in writing, and are pleased to be here

17 today in person with respect to the proposed

18 stocking rate charts that you're considering.

19 We think it's important to be here

20 to support the NOP's commitment to high

21 standards of animal care and housing. Many

22 organic producers recognize that humane
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1 treatment of animals is integral to organic

2 principles and philosophy. Consumers expect

3 organic farms to meet the animals' needs,

4 especially their needs for adequate living

5 space, and the freedom to express their

6 natural behaviors. 

7 We support the most generous

8 stocking densities that are feasible for

9 producers, and we would be concerned with any

10 proposals to increase the density or the

11 stocking rates above those that are outlined

12 in the proposed November 2009 rate charts,

13 which correspond with the Canadian

14 requirements. We feel strongly that these

15 should not be weakened.

16 We raised, in our letter of April

17 12th, some specific concerns. While we are

18 generally very supportive of the overall space

19 allowances, we just wanted to highlight the

20 finishing space for cattle, and make sure that

21 those are in alignment, as well, with the

22 Canadian requirements, and draw attention to
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1 some potential concerns about accidental

2 crushing of piglets, if no space is required

3 to make sure that they have adequate zone to

4 avoid that outcome, and wanted to refer you to

5 the Global Animal Partnership Program, a plan

6 that's already devised some requirements in

7 that area. And we would strongly encourage

8 the Board to incorporate those, and to fail

9 farms that don't have the ability to meet

10 those requirements. 

11 So, again, mostly I'm just here to

12 provide strong support for the direction that

13 you're headed in, and to encourage you not to

14 weaken any of the densities that you proposed.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

16 Questions? Thank you.

17 MS. FEARING: Thanks.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Urvashi

19 Rangan, Michael Hansen on deck, Charlotte

20 Vallaeys in the hole.

21 MR. RANGAN: Hi, good morning. I

22 believe I have the proxy for Michael. Right,
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1 Valerie? Yes. Well, good morning. My name

2 is Urvashi Rangan. I am the Director of

3 Technical Policy for Consumers Union. We

4 publish Consumer Reports Magazine. I'm also

5 an Environmental Health Scientist,

6 Toxicologist. 

7 I'd like to begin with

8 nanomaterials. We also have comments. I'm

9 sorry they're going to get to you late, but

10 we're able to submit them to you this morning. 

11 We concur with the comments of Patty Lovera

12 from Food and Water Watch, that we believe

13 nanomaterials, it's really about the

14 intentional creation of engineered

15 nanomaterials, and then the prohibition of

16 those materials in organic production. 

17 That's, ideally, what we would like to get to. 

18 We understand that treating them as

19 synthetics, at least as of today, gets us one

20 step further, but we think, at the end of the

21 day, that is a type of substance that needs to

22 be prohibited in organic production for all
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1 the reasons Patty mentioned.

2 These things are very small. They

3 do behave differently. From a toxicology

4 perspective, when you start to look at the

5 studies, as well, they are so small, they can

6 penetrate much further than molecules that are

7 like them that are bigger can. We've studied

8 this issue in sunscreens, for example, and we

9 know that the nanomaterials can actually

10 penetrate the dermis much further, and get to

11 places in the body that the regular versions

12 of those chemicals or minerals cannot. So,

13 for those reasons, we do think that engineered

14 nanomaterials should be prohibited in organic

15 production.

16 With regard to methionine, as

17 Miles pointed out in the NOP presentation

18 yesterday, amino acids are not vitamins or

19 minerals. And so, we wonder about the

20 rationale in the regulatory framework section

21 of this recommendation. I think, overall, if

22 this recommendation were to go through, it
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1 would be 16 years of a prohibited material

2 that is allowed in this feed. That's just not

3 okay, and I think it really represents a bit

4 of a breakdown process when it comes to

5 Sunsetting materials, creating incentives for

6 organic alternatives to be developed. And

7 even in reviewing the recommendation, it's

8 clear that there are many natural materials

9 that can be explored further.

10 I've met a gentleman who is

11 producing high methionine corn, and,

12 apparently, didn't get four grants in the last

13 several years, because there was no demand,

14 and there's no interest. So, if you keep

15 Sunsetting material, or you don't Sunset

16 materials over and over again, that sends a

17 clear message to the marketplace that there's

18 no real need to develop alternatives. And

19 that's a really big problem, because Sunset

20 and use of synthetic materials -- and, Joe, I

21 respectfully sort of disagree with your

22 concept on synthetics with regard to organic -
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1 - but it was designed to use it for a while,

2 if there aren't any other alternatives. But

3 as the natural alternatives become available,

4 that's what needs to move into organic

5 production. And consumers are trusting you to

6 implement that process properly. 

7 Methionine is an example of a

8 failed Sunset procedure system, and we really

9 urge you to start winding this down, to start

10 Sunsetting this material, put a transition

11 period in if you need to, but we really need

12 to be done with this. And it shouldn't take

13 another five or six years to get that done.

14 In the regulatory framework,

15 though, if that is the rationale for this

16 exemption, that it is a vitamin and mineral,

17 and that is how it's being granted as an

18 exemption for using a prohibited substance in

19 organic production, then I would just

20 encourage you to revisit that in the context

21 of what Miles had stated yesterday.

22 With regard to classification of
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1 materials, I'll tell you, I've been watching

2 the development of what's synthetic, and

3 what's not synthetic for the last decade. 

4 And, as a scientist, I'm even getting rather

5 confused about what this is. And, as a

6 scientist, trying to educate the public about

7 what it is your rationale is for what is

8 synthetic or what isn't, what is natural or

9 what isn't, it's becoming increasingly

10 difficult to do that. 

11 We felt about a year ago we were

12 getting on the mark, and then somehow we feel

13 we've deviated from that point. I think it's

14 important to avoid the ability to exploit the

15 classification of a material, so let me just

16 zoom out for a minute, and say that we think

17 that this Board should err on the side of

18 having to review a material that may be

19 questionable for use in organic production,

20 and that that should trump the development of

21 an overworked formula that might actually lead

22 to an inappropriate material being
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1 greenlighted for use in organic production.

2 We are very concerned about many

3 ingredients that might be listed, and I don't

4 know if there's been a little bit of a testing

5 process to this formula, like what synthetic

6 ingredients are out there that we wouldn't

7 want in organic production, and could that be

8 greenlighted in this process? 

9 I can't figure out how partially

10 hydrogenated oil couldn't be done right now

11 under the current definition. It's a nickel

12 catalyst, natural oil, little pressure, little

13 hydrogen gas and you've got hydrogenated oil. 

14 This doesn't prevent that from happening. 

15 And, frankly, we often talk about the natural

16 label to consumers, and don't confuse natural

17 with organic, and here's what natural ought to

18 mean. And that is, if you don't have an

19 ingredient that grew in nature, you don't have

20 a natural ingredient anymore. If you

21 processed it, and it is chemically different

22 from what it was in nature, you don't have a
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1 natural ingredient. You chemically changed

2 it, and this is Chemistry 101. And I think

3 there seems to be a drive to redefine what it

4 is, rather than just saying by following basic

5 chemistry principles, that's what it is. And

6 maybe there's a way for you all to

7 differentiate between products that are

8 minimally processed, and you could, perhaps,

9 fast-track that through a different, or

10 through a shorter chain of evaluation than you

11 would for a full-blown synthetic TAP review. 

12 But you can't just wave it through. And I

13 think whatever it is, the recommendation right

14 now, it doesn't jibe with what basic science

15 is. So, we think that needs revision. We

16 think if there's a chemical change, there's a

17 chemical change, and we think that from the

18 consumer point of view, they expect you to

19 review those things, and approve them on the

20 National List, so that if there are truly

21 synthetic materials, that you have, in fact,

22 reviewed them, and decided whether they should
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1 be on the list or not.

2 With regard to the Made With

3 label, consumers have been educated to look

4 for the organic seal, the USDA organic seal,

5 to find the most value in organic products. 

6 It's a way for us to help educate consumers,

7 to tell them if you want the best of the

8 organic, you need to look for the USDA seal. 

9 By allowing that seal to be used on the Made

10 With category, it's, we believe, going to lead

11 to actually more confusion on the marketplace,

12 and it will, ultimately, confuse consumers

13 even further. 

14 We concur with Patty Lovera that

15 this is an enforcement issue, and we

16 appreciate the want to try to clear up this

17 marketplace confusion, but we think that

18 products like fish that are carrying an

19 organic claim, or personal care products that

20 aren't NOP certified that have an organic

21 claim, or fertilizers that have an organic

22 claim that are sewage sludge, those should not
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1 be allowed, and that those should be

2 prohibited, and that those are the direct

3 confusing factors in the marketplace. It

4 isn't the Made With so much as it is these

5 misleading organic-labeled products out on the

6 marketplace. And, at this point, we can say

7 if food has an organic claim on the front, it

8 meets the National Organic Program. And I

9 think that most consumers understand that, but

10 it's the other product categories in the other

11 sectors where there hasn't been any

12 enforcement action. 

13 We're really pleased to see that

14 the NOP is meeting with the FTC. We're very

15 happy with that, and we encourage them to not

16 only talk about personal care products in that

17 meeting, but also any non-NOP organic claim in

18 the marketplace. We think it's a really great

19 opportunity. The FTC is about to issue their

20 Environmental Marketing Guides again, and it's

21 an opportunity for FTC to help the agency with

22 preventing deceptive marketing claims on the
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1 marketplace.

2 And, finally, with regard to inert

3 gases used in the 100 percent organic, I tried

4 to get a better handle on how inert gases are

5 produced. It seems to be through fractional

6 distillation of air, which is how you get most

7 of these inert gases. And as long as that

8 process, again, meets with all of the terms in

9 terms of getting that, making a natural type

10 of ingredient, we don't have a problem with

11 the use of inert gases in 100 percent organic. 

12 Thank you.

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

14 Joe.

15 MR. SMILLIE: We may disagree on

16 the role of synthetics, but we greatly

17 appreciate the work of Consumers Union in

18 educating the public about organic, and your

19 strident support of the organic label as

20 compared to the natural label. A great deal

21 of appreciation on that issue.

22 MS. RANGAN: Thank you, Joe.
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1 MR. SMILLIE: I'll pass on the

2 classification, and let my colleagues tackle

3 that one. But on the Made With, the Made With

4 label also meets the NOP program. I'm not

5 arguing for the USDA seal. It's a discussion -

6 - 

7 MS. RANGAN: Oh, we realize -- 

8 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. And I think

9 that organizations like yours play a really

10 important role to bring that awareness to

11 people that Made With organic products are

12 certified, that they do meet the National

13 Organic Program, and that they do help expand

14 the growth of organics in the industry. And

15 even though it's not as valid as the organic

16 label, I think it's an issue of consumer

17 education, not necessarily the seal. And I

18 think that's the way we are heading. And

19 organizations like yours can do a great deal

20 to help us get that education out there, that

21 it's not not organic, that it's just not as

22 good as organic. 
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1 And, lastly, I greatly appreciate

2 your support on the inert gases. As a

3 distinguished scientist, I'm glad you did the

4 research to realize that this material is

5 going to be very helpful to manufacturers, and

6 doesn't prevent them from using 100 percent

7 claim.

8 MS. RANGAN: Thanks, Joe. Just to

9 respond to your one labeling issue. I mean,

10 there are other ways besides reducing the seal

11 in half, and putting it on the back. And we

12 think it is that seal use that's going to be

13 confusing. I'm not sure consumers are going

14 to know bigger versus smaller, and know the

15 value differential. 

16 Maybe a statement on the back with

17 the certifier's seal to say, "meets the

18 standards of the National Organic Program for

19 this category," I mean, that's a very

20 transparent, clear way of helping consumers

21 understand that, while not confusing them

22 further, and they still being able to
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1 differentiate the higher organic categories

2 with the seal.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Katrina.

4 MS. HEINZE: Thank you for your

5 comments on the classification of materials. 

6 Certainly, if it was easy, it would have been

7 solved a long time ago. Your comments give us

8 something to think about. I'm interested, if

9 we just went with chemical change, which is

10 what we did in the fall, we heard a lot of

11 public comment that that would then

12 unintentionally include a lot of agricultural

13 products that had been processed, and make

14 those synthetic, and that that would be

15 confusing to consumers. For example, now the

16 bread would be synthetic, their yogurt would

17 be synthetic, and that certified organic

18 synthetic, while perhaps scientifically

19 correct, would offend the sensibilities of

20 consumers. I'm interested what your thoughts

21 are on that topic.

22 MS. RANGAN: Katrina, I think it's
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1 a very difficult line we're trying to tread

2 here. I think that if there are synthetics

3 that are appropriate for use in organic

4 production, and there aren't alternatives,

5 come clean with the public, and let them know

6 that that's the only way you can get yogurt,

7 is to have certain synthetic materials in it. 

8 There's no other way. I think what happens

9 is, you try to create this paradigm and spit

10 something out as natural, that scientifically

11 speaking isn't, and then you get outrage on

12 the back end with, well, how did you evaluate

13 this? And then it's, well, we didn't really,

14 because we didn't need to, and then you back

15 it up to that rationale. I think that becomes

16 a challenge for you all, and for the integrity

17 of organics on the whole.

18 MS. HEINZE: I appreciate that. I

19 guess my question is not in cases where you've

20 used synthetics, but in the cases where you've

21 used a natural. So, for example, or have just

22 processed it. So, the example we had in our
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1 document was a very simple one, but you take

2 wheat, you toast it, that is chemically

3 changed. And our definition as it stood in

4 November, that would be synthetic.

5 MS. RANGAN: Well, I think - 

6 MS. HEINZE: And I also go back to

7 my mom, and those of you who have been on the

8 Board for a while, she would tell me I was an

9 idiot if I made that synthetic.

10 MS. RANGAN: Right. And I've been

11 up here having the same discussion before. 

12 So, the act defines processing, and we have

13 those terms for what it can be. And I think

14 there was agreement that if you use those

15 processing techniques with an ingredient, that

16 you cook it, you bake it, you dry it, that you

17 would not need to run it through the mill. 

18 But if you do anything else to it, why

19 wouldn't you want to run it through the mill,

20 and why does the mill have to be as

21 complicated for every single one? If you know

22 that it's only a minimal processing, and
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1 whatever it is, at least it had your eyes to

2 review. And I think that's the point, is that

3 the public needs you all to be that box, where

4 these things input through, there's some sort

5 of eyeballs and review on it, or a more

6 extensive review if that's necessary, and then

7 it comes out the other end. Without that, the

8 fact that things can sort of land on the

9 floor, and you all never have seen it because

10 it was just greenlighted through, that's a

11 very precarious position to be in, I think,

12 for this program.

13 MS. HEINZE: Thank you. That is

14 exactly what our edition is intended to do, to

15 say if you process it with these few things,

16 it doesn't need to go through the mill, but

17 otherwise it does. And we'll take a look at

18 other public comments, as well, but that was

19 an intent to do that. 

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: John. 

21 MR. FOSTER: So, one of the things

22 that's occupied a lot of my time is that
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1 complex world that you talked about. I would

2 love to live in a world where if it's chemical

3 change, it's chemical change. That's great. 

4 But one thing that's come a little more

5 clearer for me in the last six months,

6 particularly, is that there's a difference

7 between how you define chemical change and its

8 acceptability to the industry. And even

9 though I've watched a lot of these meetings in

10 the last few years, it seems like it's a

11 subtlety that's now readily apparent. So,

12 there's been a sharp and painful learning

13 curve for me in the last few months about

14 that. That's such a significant difference,

15 I think it's so subtle that it escapes a lot

16 of consumers who express discontent. I'm not

17 sure that they're thinking in those terms.

18 When you had mentioned if it's

19 chemical change, it's chemical change, so --

20 and I'm really looking for it, and I want the

21 answer. Does baking bread -- in my

22 understanding, there's a chemical change
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1 there. Should that be considered synthetic,

2 or not? 

3 MS. RANGAN: No, and we've talked

4 about this before. You have processing terms

5 here, and that was sort of where we -- well,

6 we agreed with you all that the line should be

7 drawn last year, but if it was cooked, if it

8 was dried, if it was evaporated, if it was

9 grinded, I mean that those are things that

10 were fine. But, John, I do have to ask you to

11 consider why or how a partially hydrogenated

12 oil right now could get through as organic,

13 according to this definition. And I don't

14 think you intend for that to happen, but that

15 is, perhaps, an inadvertent consequence of

16 creating a bigger formula for exempting things

17 from being reviewed, rather than creating a

18 narrow formula, and just running through the

19 review. And, again, this isn't a matter of

20 not using it, using it, and maybe you'll deem

21 some of those things natural on the other end

22 after you review them, and say, oh, I see how
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1 it's done, and so, chemically, it's not any

2 different, even though lots of synthetics were

3 used to process the thing. But if it doesn't

4 have that review, it doesn't have that kind of

5 credibility that consumers are looking toward

6 and paying more for, because they think that

7 that kind of due diligence is being done when

8 they buy organic products. 

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay.

10 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you for your

11 comments. Dr. Rangan, as a toxicologist, I

12 want to ask you a couple of questions about --

13 on this classification issue regarding the

14 significant versus insignificant definition,

15 which, of course, is not before us here, but

16 is sort of the foundation on which we are

17 building this classification discussion. So,

18 we take a process that involves a chemical

19 extraction, and we end up with an

20 insignificant amount of that chemical in the

21 end product. As a toxicologist, what's your

22 feeling about that?
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1 MS. RANGAN: That you definitely

2 do have a chemical change. And, Jay, thank

3 you for bringing up that question. I wanted

4 to mention that significant change, subtle

5 change, John, however you want to phrase it,

6 change is change. And from a chemistry

7 perspective, it just is change. It requires

8 your review, whether it's a subtle change,

9 significant, whatever it is, it requires your

10 review. I'm sorry, Jay, the last part of your

11 question on that?

12 MR. FELDMAN: Well, it's just a

13 question of how - I think you've answered it.

14 MS. RANGAN: Yes.

15 MR. FELDMAN: How should we

16 address that as a Board? Should we view this

17 as de minimis and, therefore, not -- 

18 MS. RANGAN: Yes. No, and I would

19 also maybe encourage you all to look at what

20 FDA did with the Corn Refiners Association. 

21 The Corn Refiners Association went to FDA a

22 few years ago, and wanted to use the term
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1 "natural" on high fructose corn syrup2 containing products, and that processing

3 involves a lot of strong acids and bases, also

4 bacterial enzymes to make it. And, if you

5 read through that document, it's pretty dense,

6 and it kind of takes a scientist to read

7 through it and tease it out, but what you

8 realize is that even FDA at that time was

9 saying, look, we really don't think so, and

10 the fact that you've run these things on

11 columns, you load it with an acid, it's only

12 unless you have zero residue of that acid left

13 at the other end that they would even

14 entertain the thought of it being labeled as

15 natural. So, I think that might help you all

16 just looking at what little FDA has done

17 around the natural claim, and it's not enough,

18 in our opinion, but, even what little they

19 have done, I think will give you some

20 indications that certainly if there are

21 residues left, it's not considered -- 

22 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Part of the
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1 struggle for us is that once you talk about

2 zero, you're talking about limits of

3 detection, and you're talking about a

4 methodology for that, which, of course, is a

5 moving target. But, at the same time, the

6 statute under which we're operating is a

7 process-driven statute, so the question is

8 whether you're adding something, not whether

9 something is remaining. We use residues to

10 determine whether there's compliance with that

11 process-driven process.

12 MS. RANGAN: Sure.

13 MR. FELDMAN: And we're getting

14 caught up in -- and we're back-ending a lot of

15 our discussion, I think partly because of the

16 IG report, and the focus on how we're going to

17 create a new enforcement, better enforcement

18 system, and we're giving -- we're sort of

19 forgetting that we're process-driven, and we

20 don't want those inputs being put in at the

21 front end, because we know about some of the

22 deficiencies on detecting them at the back
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1 end.

2 MS. RANGAN: That's right. And I

3 can't agree more, and I think all the

4 processing aids, and I'll bring up food

5 contact substances, but it's those things

6 should be considered, you should be looking at

7 them. And there are areas -- I mean,

8 bisphenol A is a classic example of what's

9 going on right now as a food contact substance

10 that leaches into food in the cans, that, had

11 the law not been changed several years ago, we

12 would be reviewing that material right now. 

13 And consumers ask me all the time, does

14 organic not have BPA? And that's not the

15 case, and that's the result of not reviewing

16 food contact substances, and not really taking

17 a closer look at processing aids. There will

18 be more after BPA, but that's an example of

19 how not paying attention to those things can

20 sort of bite you on the back end.

21 MR. FELDMAN: Dan, I'm really

22 sorry about this. I just have one other
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1 question. I want to thank you for your

2 comments on public perception, because I think

3 on classification that's a really driving

4 issue for the Board to deal with the fact that

5 we are approving a lot of synthetics. We do

6 go through a rigorous review, and we want to

7 improve that review, but I agree with you,

8 that we need to have that review and

9 acknowledge that we do allow synthetics, and

10 stand behind that. I don't go as far as Joe

11 goes, I think our default under the statute is

12 to try to avoid that, to the extent possible,

13 but we do do it. 

14 I need to ask you about inert

15 ingredients, since you didn't mention that,

16 and what your feeling is in terms of the Board

17 authority or responsibility to evaluate inert

18 ingredients, especially under the new EPA

19 pending policy on full disclosure.

20 MS. RANGAN: I mean, the Board

21 won't be happy with what I have to say on

22 that. You guys, I think you need to review
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1 them, and I think that maybe there are places

2 at EPA, you know, they have this design for

3 the environment program. There may be an

4 infrastructure framework at EPA already there

5 for you to try to use to help expedite the

6 sort of re-review of some of these things, and

7 where they're going, but, again, I just think

8 to greenlight these things, or wave the hand

9 through, what we're able to tell consumers is,

10 if there's a synthetic material used in it,

11 then the Board reviewed it, and that you, the

12 consumer, can be assured of that. And that's

13 a very important line in the sand. And if you

14 start to erode that line, or get rid of it,

15 that's really going to undermine the integrity

16 of organics, and what consumers expect out of

17 it.

18 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jennifer.

20 MS. HALL: Thank you, Dan. 

21 Urvashi, I'd like to talk to you a little bit

22 about your comments about the Made With label. 
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1 And I couldn't agree with you more that I

2 think the greater consternation lies in the

3 arenas that are completely not inspected, that

4 don't have any rules around them with personal

5 care, and other industries. However, I think

6 that, in your own words, that what organic

7 represents is the credibility that consumers

8 are looking for. And that, up to now, we may

9 have used that USDA seal as representing the

10 gold bar, but that, potentially, it has more

11 value to us if we actually use it as

12 verification that it has met legal

13 requirements to be in a certain category. And

14 Made With is a legitimate category of organic,

15 so to the extent that we refer to it as kind

16 of the ugly stepchild, because it's less

17 perfect, I don't think that does any good. I

18 think that we need to promote the industry as

19 a whole, and those products are 70 percent

20 better than their conventional counterparts. 

21 So, I think that your group and others have

22 done incredible work to establish a value with
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1 the seal and the recognition of what that

2 means, and that there's an opportunity to

3 expand the credibility of all of organic, and

4 recognizing all of the work that's done in the

5 industry, even with the Made With category. 

6 And that the fact that at least the seal on

7 every single thing that has gone through

8 organic certification does start to spread the

9 waters. It either has been inspected and is

10 verified, or it's not, and there does become

11 a clear divining rod then between those

12 industries that are just making claims that we

13 don't have a handle on yet, or may never ever,

14 and those that are legitimately inspected and

15 certified.

16 MS. RANGAN: Thanks, Jenny. I

17 appreciate your comments, and I -- in reading

18 through that recommendation, I really

19 empathize with the Board. And it's something

20 we have to educate consumers on too. And we

21 agree, there is legitimacy to that, to the

22 Made With organic label. We completely agree
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1 with you. 

2 I think it's in the way it's going

3 to be denoted, that will actually have an

4 inadvertent consequence of muddying it up for

5 the consumer. And the reason I say that is

6 because every time -- I mean, even today after 

7 a decade of this program being in place, I

8 still have to deal with reporters in talking

9 about the three tiers of organic, and meeting

10 wonderment when they hear that. And people

11 don't know there are three tiers of organic

12 labeling. They don't know how they're

13 supposed to figure that out. And the USDA

14 seal has enabled us to tell people that those

15 are the top levels of organic. It enables us

16 to help guide people toward the most

17 meaningful organic products on the market, and

18 that's not an attempt to discredit the Made

19 With category, and that's why I really do

20 encourage some sort of, "meets the standards

21 of the National Organic Program" on the back

22 of it, so that it is clear to consumers that
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1 those products do meet the standards of the

2 National Organic Program. 

3 I would just really caution that

4 the seal may confuse people's ability to

5 discern between those that are made with

6 organic, and those that are organic, and those

7 that are 100 percent organic. And right now,

8 we actually have a way to differentiate better

9 on those categories, but with the seal, it

10 becomes increasingly difficult if you throw

11 that on the third tier. So, that's why we

12 would like to see some sort of disclosure on

13 the back that it does meet the standards of

14 the National Organic Program, so that it's

15 very clear to consumers that you save that

16 seal for the most meaningful organic products

17 on the marketplace.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

19 I'd like to remind the Board members that cots

20 will not be brought in, and to please try and

21 stay focused on -- thank you, Urvashi. Didn't

22 mean to take that off at all, but please try
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1 to stay focused on the questions, not

2 discussions of your agreement and disagreement

3 at this point in time.

4 Is Charlotte -- Will, do you have5 MR. FANTLE: Charlotte is not

6 here. She is seven months pregnant, and

7 decided to remain in Boston. We are going to

8 cede her time to a producer from Pennsylvania

9 who came out here.

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. We

11 are going to take this one. Are you already

12 on the list?

13 MR. BAKER: Via Cornucopia, I'm

14 not on the list. 

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

16 Let's try and keep this organized through

17 Valerie, please, these kind of switches. 

18 We're going to do one more, then we'll take

19 our break and give everyone a chance to

20 stretch their legs. Thank you.

21 MR. BAKER: Thank you. John Baker,

22 President of Giving Nature Foods. Regarding
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1 the review of NOP standards affecting outdoor

2 access for egg-laying hens, and whether or not

3 it should be defined as providing a pastured

4 environment for organic layers, I would like

5 to make the following comments.

6 In my opinion, no one can question

7 that consumers expect organic egg producers to

8 provide pasture for organic laying hens. 

9 Also, in my opinion, no one can deny that the

10 consumers who buy organic eggs expect them to

11 be from anything other than from pastured

12 hens. The term outdoor access was created to

13 replace pasturing as a term to describe the

14 environment that should be provided to organic

15 laying hens. I will not conjecture on why

16 this was decided upon, but will only say that

17 I believe it falls far short of the

18 expectation of the organic egg consumer.

19 Testimony that comes from

20 representatives of large-scale CAFO, 

21 concentrated animal feeding operations,

22 organic egg producers whose interests dwell on
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1 keeping the standards as they are, and whose

2 only result, should their desires be

3 actualized, would, I believe, be the continued

4 warping of the term "organic" to fit such a

5 large-scale CAFO monoculture production model.

6 For the record then, I would like

7 it to be known that as an organic egg supplier

8 to the Mid-Atlantic and Greater New York City

9 region of the United States, and whose scale

10 of production includes 130,000 plus organic

11 laying hens, I, without exception, support the

12 following standards for organic egg laying

13 hens, and that such standards be a replacement

14 for the current NOP standard regarding outdoor

15 access, as it pertains to organic laying hens.

16 All organic laying facilities

17 should have pasture available to them at least

18 120 days of the calendar year. Such pasture

19 must be maintained with at least 75 percent

20 vegetation during the time the laying hens

21 have access to pasture. The standard of

22 maintaining 75 percent vegetation during
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1 pasture access should be used as a baseline

2 when determining the requirement of outdoor

3 square footage per bird. Anything less will

4 result in bare ground devoid of fulfilling the

5 pasture concept's true intent.

6 I believe these standards are

7 achievable under most climate conditions in

8 the United States that an organic egg producer

9 would encounter. Wherever they are not

10 achievable, then those areas of the US should

11 be deemed unfit for organic egg production,

12 and those egg producers that are currently

13 producing organic eggs in those areas can

14 enter other existing vibrant markets, such as

15 cage-free egg production. Thank you. 

16 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

17 Jeff.

18 MR. MOYER: You said you have

19 130,000 birds. Is that correct?

20 MR. BAKER: Yes, sir.

21 MR. MOYER: How many acres are 

22 you -- 
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1 MR. BAKER: Well, we're just now

2 transitioning them all into pasture, so we're

3 going to attempt to have them all transitioned

4 within the next three years. We have about a

5 quarter of them going into transition now, and

6 next year we'll do the same. Because of the

7 way the standards are written, it was hard to

8 find a farmer that was willing to go to that

9 extent for the level of production that we

10 needed to satisfy our customers. So, over the

11 years, we've advocated for outdoor access, the

12 greater standard than what is now available,

13 in fact, that they should be pastured. What

14 we've done is, we've asked the people that are

15 willing to participate in the program right

16 now, which is about a quarter of our

17 production, we've asked them to take a 15-foot

18 buffer that's around the house that has to be

19 done anyway as a result of organic

20 certification, and we've asked them to put

21 them out on that pasture area. That's not

22 adequate, but it begins that process, and then
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1 the buffer that will come out around that 15

2 feet that goes around the house will be made

3 even larger to finally be adequate to maintain

4 75 percent vegetation, like I just described. 

5 So, we're in the process, ourselves, and I

6 would recommend that, too, in terms of

7 reviewing this, because most people don't have

8 their birds outside if they're supplying any

9 type of size of production. 

10 MR. MOYER: I guess, to be a

11 little more specific, within your farm or your

12 region in the northeast, if you have 130,000

13 birds, how many square feet per bird are you

14 allowing, or how many acres is it going to

15 take you for 130,000 birds?

16 MR. BAKER: We're still going

17 through that process ourselves.

18 MR. MOYER: So, you don't know.

19 MR. BAKER: No, but we're going to

20 have to -- we'll find out as we go along how

21 much we actually do need. I think to try and

22 have a target with an exact amount of acreage
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1 needed right now isn't practical, because you

2 may end up requiring too much acreage, or not

3 enough. It's going to depend on the area that

4 you're in, and what the experience is of the

5 growers. Because we've gone through decades

6 of not doing this, all that kind of knowledge

7 is really lost, nobody really knows. 

8 MR. MOYER: And how many hours a

9 day do you expect the birds to be on that

10 pasture?

11 MR. BAKER: I would probably defer

12 to my Culture Management Service. Mel. What

13 would you think they would be outdoor access? 

14 Minimum of four. Okay. Maximum? Four to

15 ten.

16 MR. MOYER: Thank you.

17 MR. BAKER: Yes.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any other

19 questions? Seeing none, thank you. We will

20 take our break. We will stay on schedule, and

21 bring you back together, reconvene at 10:00.

22 (Whereupon, the above-entitled
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1 proceeding went off the record at 9:51 a.m.,

2 and resumed at 10:10 a.m.)

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. We

4 have a quorum, and we'd like our first --

5 where did my list go? Will Fantle with a

6 proxy -- Will, do you have a proxy?

7 MR. FANTLE: Yes.

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

9 With a proxy, and then Walter Goldstein, and

10 Steve Ricke on deck and in the hole.

11 MR. FANTLE: My name is Will

12 Fantle. I'm the Co-Director of the Cornucopia

13 Institute. We have approximately 3,500

14 members across the country predominantly

15 certified organic farmers as that membership,

16 and I'm here representing the organization. 

17 We provided detailed comments to the Board on

18 a number of the agenda items. I'm going to

19 highlight some of those portions of the

20 comments.

21 The first area I want to talk

22 about is the Livestock Committee's request for
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1 public input regarding stocking rates. We're

2 concerned that the scope and magnitude of the

3 area of regulatory oversight that's being

4 suggested in this document warrants more

5 extensive and greater public participation. 

6 And what we would suggest as a model for that

7 is something that works successfully, we

8 think, on the pasture rule. And that was the

9 symposium that was held at State College

10 Pennsylvania in 2006 that brought together a

11 wide variety of producers from across the

12 country who were able to generate a

13 significant amount of discussion, and we

14 think, ultimately, coalesced around a proposal

15 that led to, eventually, what became the

16 Pasture Rule that was released this last

17 February. We think that's a good model to use

18 for this going forward.

19 We would also suggest that the

20 Board take a look at the document that was

21 produced by Dr. Kathleen Merrigan, and Dr.

22 Lokeretz when Dr. Merrigan was at Tufts, and
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1 that dealt with this very issue of animal

2 welfare and stocking ratios. In fact, the

3 document that they jointly produced was a

4 review of seven different organic standards

5 designed for use by the NOSB and the NOP. And

6 we think that would be useful for you to have,

7 in addition to the three documents that were

8 provided to you in your materials for

9 discussion of this item.

10 The other aspect of this I want to

11 mention is the organic egg sector. Later this

12 year, our organization will be releasing a

13 report based upon the extensive research that

14 we're currently doing, and have been doing for

15 the last year and a half into organic eggs. 

16 We've been doing survey work of organic egg

17 producers. We've been visiting farms. We've

18 been talking to people involved in the

19 industry.

20 Generally, I can tell you right

21 now, what we have uncovered is that most of

22 the smaller scale organic producers would be
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1 able to meet any of the standards that are

2 mentioned in the appendices that you have

3 received. In fact, they could probably go

4 beyond those standards. We don't think,

5 however, from what our research has found that

6 many of the large-scale organic egg-laying

7 operations can do that. In fact, we think

8 they would need to remodel their hen houses,

9 and potentially dedicate or acquire additional

10 land to allow them to comply with what's even

11 the lowest proposed numbers, meaning those

12 highest densities that you're considering. 

13 And I'd also like to note that

14 it's very difficult for some of the smaller

15 and mid-sized operations to come to events

16 like this. They rely on organizations, such

17 as ours, and others to share information with

18 them. And this is one more reason, I think,

19 for you to consider a symposium that would be

20 a focal point for attention on this issue, and

21 allow for these other producers to gather, and

22 talk, and share information with you, and
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1 dialogue with you. 

2 The larger producers, as you

3 recall from your November meeting, were able

4 to send their representatives. I know that

5 many of them are here again today, and we're

6 concerned that you're only hearing one voice,

7 and we would hope that you would broaden your

8 activities, and try and include those other

9 voices in this discussion.

10 Accessory nutrients, we were

11 pleased by the announcement from the Program

12 yesterday indicating that accessory nutrients

13 are not on the National List. This is

14 something that some of you may recall we filed

15 a formal complaint with the Program on several

16 years ago, saying that this was, indeed, the

17 case. That complaint was dismissed by the

18 prior Program Management. We re-filed that

19 complaint last week, and I would hope that you

20 would again just take a look at that, because

21 one of the key components of this has been the

22 suggestion going forward that you're going to
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1 allow a transition time for businesses to

2 remove some of these ingredients from their

3 product. We don't have a problem with that. 

4 What I would suggest to you is that some of

5 these ingredients are not, necessarily,

6 benign. DHA, in particular, in infant

7 formula, we have gathered and collected

8 through our Freedom of Information Act request

9 with the Food and Drug Administration a number

10 of adverse reactions to that, scores of those,

11 which indicate that for a small subset of

12 infants, explosive diarrhea and vomiting are

13 the result of taking formula which seems to

14 clear up like that as soon as they switch to

15 a formula that doesn't have DHA in it. So,

16 please bear that in mind as you weigh how to

17 proceed on this issue, that there are some

18 infants that, perhaps, are needlessly

19 suffering because of some of these

20 ingredients.

21 As for Made With Organic, and the

22 use of organic in company names, we believe
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1 that use of a USDA seal for Made With Organic

2 Product will dilute the value of organic, of

3 100 percent organic products, and we object to

4 the usage of any type of seal, any color or

5 size on any Made With Organic product. We

6 welcome companies that are willing to move

7 forward and invest in putting 70 percent of

8 organic ingredients, or perhaps more, in the

9 products, we think the gold standard remains

10 the seal, and we think, in fact, we fear that

11 that will be watered down, or diminished in

12 value for those companies that are engaged in

13 organics, and are providing 100 percent or 95

14 percent.

15 We also have a complaint that I

16 think many of you are aware of pending before

17 the NOP dealing with the use of the name, or

18 the word "organic" in a company name on a

19 product. I won't go into details on that,

20 because I know you've seen that, and I think

21 you'll be processing that, but we do think

22 that's something that you're going to need to
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1 take action on to insure that organic and a

2 company name does not mislead consumers as to

3 what's actually in the product.

4 The last item I want to point to

5 is something that was not on your agenda, and

6 something we would encourage you to be engaged

7 with in the future, and that's the proposed

8 exemption from pasture for beef. We're

9 disappointed that the National Organic

10 Standards Board did not have an opportunity to

11 weigh in on this exemption. This actually has

12 been much of the case with this proposal, the

13 Pasture Rule going on for the past couple of

14 years, and we would urge the Program in the

15 future to recognize the importance of you,

16 your input and your involvement in any future

17 rulemakings that are involved. 

18 I'll just briefly say a couple of

19 things about the beef proposals that we

20 suggested. We again surveyed, and went out

21 and talked with beef producers across the

22 country, and dairy producers that also sell
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1 slaughter stock. What we discovered,

2 actually, was a little surprising to us, that

3 upwards of 80 percent of the nation's organic

4 beef producers are exclusively or primarily

5 grass-based until slaughter. They don't need

6 an exemption.

7 On the other hand, upwards or

8 close to 20 percent of organic beef producers

9 do currently use green finishing and a feed

10 lot setting. These producers, many, are

11 family scale and run family operated farms,

12 and they need an exemption to stay in

13 business. So, we're sort of neutral on the

14 exemption, but we did come up with a proposal

15 that would, we think, accommodate several

16 different production schemes, as well as

17 provide transparency for consumers going

18 forward. One would be organic green finished,

19 organic 100 percent grass fed, and then there

20 are producers who keep their animals out on

21 pasture, and will bring some amount of grain

22 out to them for the duration of their lives,
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1 and that would be animals finished on pasture

2 with green supplement. So, as I said, we

3 think this will lend transparency to the

4 process. It'll provide options for producers

5 going forward to meet the demands of

6 consumers, as well as allowing the market to

7 help sort out which style of operation that

8 consumers and producers are able to support. 

9 So, thank you for this opportunity.

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

11 questions? John.

12 MR. FOSTER: The numbers you were

13 talking about about beef producers, that 80

14 percent, 20 percent. Was that number of

15 animals, or number of producers?

16 MR. FANTLE: Number of producers.

17 MR. FOSTER: Okay.

18 MR. FANTLE: The number of animals

19 has probably flip-flopped for those two

20 ratios.

21 MR. FOSTER: Thank you.

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Tracy.
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1 MS. MIEDEMA: Mr. Fantle, I

2 wouldn't need you to reply to this here and

3 now, but in your written comments, and in your

4 comments today on the topic of accessory

5 nutrients, you use words like "explosive" and

6 "suffering," very hyperbolic language. This

7 appears to be some sort of narrative research. 

8 If you have any peer reviewed research on this

9 topic, would you share it with this Board?

10 MR. FANTLE: I will try and get

11 you the reports that we have from the medical

12 community, and the FDA on that. There has

13 been no -- actually, it's interesting you

14 should mention peer reviewed, because the --

15 when the FDA granted approval to Martec for

16 use of this product in foods, they asked them

17 with a generally recognized as safe

18 designation for the company to provide ongoing

19 updates, do follow-ups to any type of

20 reporting that they're receiving back. The

21 company has not done that, so that's one of

22 the deficiencies that's out there, and the
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1 omissions that we think that has been allowed

2 on this product. I will try and get to you,

3 I will talk to Charlotte, our researcher who's

4 collected this information, some overview and

5 synopsis, and some of the actual medical

6 reports.

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you,

8 Will. Next, Walter Goldstein, Steve Ricke,

9 and David Martinelli on deck, or in the hole.

10 DR. GOLDSTEIN: I'm Walter

11 Goldstein. I work at Michael Fields

12 Agricultural Institute in Southeast Wisconsin

13 as Research Director. I've been involved

14 since 1989 in breeding corn for organic

15 farmers. The interest was in quality, in

16 particular, in nutritional value. 

17 I'd like to talk with you about

18 our project to breed methionine corn. It's a

19 development project. It's something that

20 comes under pressure. As you all know,

21 methionine is a hot topic. There's three

22 different issues that I need to talk with you
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1 about. One of them is yield, the second is

2 quality, and the third is speed, and funding,

3 and so on, some of the issues that were

4 brought up earlier by three other people on

5 this issue.

6 I can refer you, actually, to a

7 set of slides that are being shown right now. 

8 We're breeding high methionine corn, and high

9 lysine corn that comes in the same sort of

10 package. We have two different types of high

11 methionine corn that we've identified. One of

12 them has a hard kernel and the other has a

13 soft kernel. And the hard endosperm sources,

14 the harder kernel types, are high protein

15 corns. They're more subject to fluctuations

16 in protein content, but they're easier for us

17 to immediately get something out to farmers

18 on. The soft endosperm corn has a higher

19 lysine and methionine content than the hard

20 kind, and we have done feeding trials with the

21 soft kind, together with Organic Valley and

22 the University of Minnesota, where we found
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1 that it replaced synthetic methionine in the

2 diet for broilers and for layers with the soft

3 kind. The hard kind we haven't done feeding

4 trials on.

5 We have also had some problems

6 with yields. The first two sets of hybrids

7 that we put out, the first set was about a

8 third less yield than normal hybrids, the

9 second set was about a quarter less yield, and

10 that was something that was actually

11 considered not to make this product fly. 

12 Could we have the next slide, please?

13 We had a third set. We've been

14 learning as we go along here. The third set

15 looked a lot better. We did trials on nine

16 organic and nine conventional sites, together

17 with a set of seed companies, and USDA, and

18 this year the high methionine hybrids, these

19 are all hard endosperm, the hard type, yielded

20 87 percent as much as normal commercial

21 hybrids, so we're climbing up there. It did

22 seem like the ones that did better under
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1 organic conditions were not the ones that did

2 as well under conventional conditions, and so

3 on, so that actually breeding under organic

4 conditions did make a difference. So, we've

5 got something that's looking fairly nice in

6 terms of yields. Next slide, please.

7 So, to evaluate differences, we

8 have looked at quality of our varieties. And,

9 generally, we are -- on these particulars,

10 these hard endosperm types, they are high

11 protein corns. And, on average, we had 12.9

12 percent protein on a total dry basis for these

13 corns, and .28 percent methionine. It's a

14 little bit lower methionine than we'd like to

15 have. We'd like to have about .3, but that's

16 what we got, and that contrasts with about 8-

17 1/2 percent protein for the normal hybrids. 

18 And this is pretty typical of results that

19 we've had in the past at our research stage.

20 So, essentially, what we're doing is we're

21 breeding high protein corn that has a lot of

22 methionine in it. It doesn't lose its
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1 methionine as the protein content goes up.

2 Well, all right. So, we have made

3 some gains. We're making gains in yield, but

4 we also, on the other hand, we've been

5 involved with Methionine Task Force in a

6 project where they have been funding, more or

7 less, seed production, not research, but seed

8 production. And there the results were -- next

9 slide, please. If you look at some of the --

10 these show some of the results that we've had

11 on different farms, and we can see that on two

12 of the farms, the lower two, we simply didn't

13 get the protein that we would have expected,

14 that we normally get. So, certainly, less

15 than 12 percent. And this is part of the

16 variation that we know that we have in the

17 hard endosperm types, that if they don't make

18 the protein content, they're not going to have

19 the methionine. Unfortunately, I think the

20 Methionine Task Force having invested so much

21 in growing this seed is going to be feeding

22 it. And I'm not sure that the results will
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1 actually show the full potential of high

2 methionine corn. Above it you can see the

3 flowery type, or the soft type, and it

4 preserves its methionine content even at lower

5 protein levels. Next slide. And here, the

6 little round balls here show the soft type,

7 and the little triangles show the hard type,

8 if you look at methionine as a function of

9 protein.

10 If you want me to talk about

11 funding, I could go on, and speed.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

13 questions? I have a -- or Jeff, go ahead. 

14 MR. MOYER: Yes, Walter. I'm just

15 wondering if through this research, how much

16 of this was actually done on organic farms?

17 You said some - 

18 DR. GOLDSTEIN: Everything.

19 MR. MOYER: This was all done on -

20 DR. GOLDSTEIN: Except, remember I

21 said nine organic sites, and nine

22 conventional, but, otherwise, everything has
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1 been done on organic.

2 MR. MOYER: And are these germ

3 plasms patented?

4 DR. GOLDSTEIN: No.

5 MR. MOYER: Okay. Thank you. 

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: So, in the

7 -- we found a variety of corn, the soft has a

8 higher -- methionine is a higher percentage of

9 protein than traditional. And the hard just

10 has more total protein with traditional

11 methionine as a percent of protein. Is that

12 correct?

13 DR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes, let me -- can

14 I rephrase that? I would say that the hard

15 has a more fixed level of protein in it. It

16 doesn't compensate for a low protein level, so

17 if you have a farm where protein content is

18 low because of the growing conditions - 

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Right.

20 DR. GOLDSTEIN: -- it's not going

21 to have high methionine. With the soft kind,

22 it will have a higher methionine content, even
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1 at a low protein content.

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

3 Have you pushed the numbers if -- in trying to

4 meet methionine requirements with your corn,

5 how much of the corn in a traditional diet

6 would need to be this corn to meet methionine,

7 or would that meet the methionine?

8 DR. GOLDSTEIN: We've done two

9 feeding trials, one with the University of

10 Minnesota, and one with Organic Valley, and

11 both have shown total replacement of the need

12 for -- relative to synthetic methionine in the

13 diet by using the soft kind. So, in terms of

14 actual performance, they have performed as

15 well as synthetic methionine in the small

16 tests that have been done so far. I hope that

17 answers your question. 

18 In terms of the actual number

19 pushing, what it looked like is that we want

20 to get around .3 percent methionine in terms

21 of totally -- 

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: But of the
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1 corn in the diet, was it all this corn that it

2 took to get that amount of methionine?

3 DR. GOLDSTEIN: Yes, yes, yes.

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. And

5 then going back to Jeff's question, this would

6 be public domain knowledge, this seed?

7 DR. GOLDSTEIN: We are a non8 profit NGO public organization, and all our

9 information is given out in field days, and on

10 our website, and so on. 

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: But for -

12 - the seed stock would be available to - 

13 DR. GOLDSTEIN: The seed stock is

14 available. We will license it to seed

15 companies. We have given away things to

16 farmers. We do work with farmers, we work

17 with Practical Farmers of Iowa, and they test

18 our stuff, so we have very much of a farmer

19 involvement in what we're doing. 

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay.

21 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. I'm

22 curious as to your opinion on what the
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1 disincentives are for an expansion of the

2 application of your research either in law, or

3 as a function of funding, and what you believe

4 the Board, the NOSB should do to help

5 facilitate a transition, and an expansion of

6 the hybrid that you've developed?

7 DR. GOLDSTEIN: Thank you very

8 much for that question. We have, in terms --

9 this is a development process, and any

10 development process is going to involve time,

11 mistakes, learning curve, and so on. And any

12 development process will occur, to a certain

13 extent, in relationship to funding, how much

14 money can you actually devote to the task. 

15 We have submitted three proposals

16 to SARE and been turned down, and two to OREI

17 and been turned down. The comments have been

18 that, mostly, that we don't want to see corn

19 be the solution. We're interested in a

20 systems approach. That's, basically, it. 

21 Now, I don't know if the movie "King Corn" has

22 influenced that, or if it's -- what, exactly,
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1 it's coming from, but it's very disappointing,

2 and very difficult. Organic farmers need

3 corn. It's one of their most productive

4 crops, and it's very useful.

5 I would like to make the point

6 that corn -- that high methionine corn is not

7 -- is scale neutral. I, myself, have a flock

8 of birds. I feed them through the growing

9 season, and they do very well because they

10 have high methionine corn. They go outside in

11 the wintertime. I think the high methionine

12 corn is especially important for them. So, I

13 think we're dealing with a scale neutral

14 thing, and it's been somewhat politicized, and

15 that's probably the reason why we're not

16 getting funding here. I'm hoping that those

17 who are opposed to large-scale operations that

18 don't allow chickens outside, or minimal use

19 of that will understand that, that this is not

20 something that is a silver bullet for just

21 large-scale operations. It's something that's

22 going to affect small and large.
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1 In terms of what can be done, I

2 would greatly welcome it if you would please

3 consider helping to further this sort of work. 

4 Research needs to be done, it costs money. 

5 The Methionine Task Force has been engaged in

6 producing seed for trials. It's put up money

7 for doing that. It has not put up money for

8 research in terms of breeding because, in

9 part, that money could be available from other

10 sources. But that money isn't coming

11 available from other sources. Could you ask

12 OREI, could you ask ARS for funding sources to

13 be devoted to developing some of these things

14 that the organic industry needs, such as high

15 methionine?

16 MR. FELDMAN: Just a quick follow17 up. We can ask, but, obviously, that's not

18 within the purview of the Board. I guess my

19 question is, if this Board were to take some

20 of the actions that have been recommended in

21 public comment to cut this thing off, or to

22 phase it down quickly, would the market fill
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1 that gap and provide the kind of methionine

2 that's necessary, or appears to be needed in

3 the production, on the production side?

4 DR. GOLDSTEIN: That depends on

5 the industry, itself. The Methionine Task

6 Force has been very helpful with us in terms

7 of joining forces, in terms of asking for

8 money from federal sources. We did, in terms

9 of private investment, we did see a drop after

10 the Board allowed synthetic methionine to be

11 used until 2010. In terms of interest, in

12 terms of feeding trials, I think there was a

13 clear drop in interest. And I think that's

14 something I would like you to take into

15 consideration. Perhaps, I've heard from Dave

16 Martinelli about the proposed drop, or

17 reduction, the possible plan for reducing

18 methionine over time. I think phasing out the

19 use of methionine is something to be

20 considered, the actual speed may affect to

21 what extent we can help. 

22 We have been able to do research
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1 in this area with money from other sources. 

2 At the moment, we are very limited. We no

3 longer have a winter nursery, our time of

4 getting varieties out has been cut in half, so

5 it does make a difference. I know there's

6 people sitting on the line, there's people who

7 like to see synthetic methionine continue

8 because of ease, and there's a lot of inertia

9 in the system. And I really do think that

10 some strong changes are necessary if this is

11 going to happen. It has to be driven by need.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

13 Any further questions? Thank you. Dr. Steve

14 Ricke, David Martinelli, and Greg Herbruck in

15 the hole.

16 DR. RICKE: Good morning. 

17 Everybody hear me okay? I am Steve Ricke from

18 the University of Arkansas, and what I want to

19 talk to you a little bit about is some

20 progress we've made on a project funded by the

21 Methionine Task Force, which takes a little

22 bit different tact than what's been talked
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1 about some today, but addresses the methionine

2 issue as it's been discussed today, to some

3 extent. And what we've done is, basically,

4 look at what would be called microbial

5 overproduction of methionine as it pertains to

6 alternative sources of methionine, as opposed

7 to the normal crystalline methionine that's

8 used in conventional industry, and obviously

9 used in these associations, as well.

10 And, basically, the premise of

11 what we've looked at here is, is to be able to

12 isolate out in nature methionine-producing

13 bacteria from a variety of different sources,

14 and then examine their ability to overproduce

15 methionine, and excrete methionine out into

16 the media, or the environment, or whatever,

17 and whether that has a potential availability

18 as a methionine source. And then the second

19 thing, obviously, that goes in hand with that

20 is assessing the potential for methionine

21 production, and quantitating that, and

22 figuring out how much we might actually get
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1 out of that. Can I have the next slide,

2 please.

3 And this is just the results, and

4 I can certainly provide more details, as

5 needed. But, so far, what we've been able to

6 do based off the funding we've had is we've

7 isolated 38 methionine-producing bacteria

8 sources. These comes from a variety of

9 sources. Nine of these actually came from the

10 chicken gastrointestinal tract, which we were

11 excited about to some extent, because that may

12 have some other possibilities, as well. 

13 Others came from the ruminant of the cow, some

14 came from soil, and a pretty wide range of

15 environments, which I think really gets us

16 excited to some extent about where we can go

17 with this. 

18 We screened for overproducing by

19 basically using methionine analog norleucine. 

20 Methionine overproducing organisms that occur

21 in nature naturally are norleucine tolerant,

22 so it makes for a ready fast screen, which we
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1 can run from a plating standpoint. We have

2 just completed here recently, we've ID'd a

3 couple of the more tolerant strains using 16S

4 RNA. We know what they are now, and that's an

5 important part of the process, because once we

6 know who the organisms are, we can get a much

7 better idea on how to grow them initially, and

8 how to optimize that growth. And, therefore,

9 start to strategize on how to optimize our

10 methionine production. So, we just recently

11 completed that. We have a pretty good idea of

12 at least two of the organisms, and what they

13 are, so now we're in the process of developing

14 that media, the media for growing these

15 organisms, and coming up with ways to optimize

16 methionine production.

17 And, finally, where we're at now

18 is, is we're starting to assess methionine

19 production capacity so that we can come up

20 with some quantitative numbers in terms of how

21 much methionine would be produced. Our

22 overall goal on this thing is to come up with
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1 something that could be used in the industry

2 much like synthetic methionine, or crystalline

3 methionine is used now, but now this is

4 derived from an organic source. And the

5 potential, I think, is definitely there. 

6 We're in the initial stages of this. Again,

7 we want to thank, again, the Methionine Task

8 Force for funding us to initiate this process.

9 I'm trained as a microbiologist,

10 so this very much fits into my bailiwick, so

11 to speak, in terms of the sorts of things that

12 we're interested in. And this is not a new

13 technology. I mean, a lot of amino acids in

14 the past, certainly in Japan and other places

15 have been produced by these processes using

16 natural bacterial isolates in nature that

17 overproduce amino acids, and excrete those

18 amino acids. So, it's not uncommon. You do

19 find them in gastrointestinal tract systems,

20 as well, and I think really where we're at is

21 trying to figure out a way to focus this,

22 harness this potential, and then come up with
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1 an industrial-scale process that can actually

2 be useful to the industry.

3 I think as protein sources get to

4 be more variable and valuable in terms of not

5 just the organic industry, but the

6 conventional industry as well, I think there's

7 real need for some alternative approaches to

8 how to do some of the amino acid balancing in

9 diets, et cetera. And with that, I thank you

10 for having me here, and I'll be happy to

11 answer questions.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jeff.

13 MR. MOYER: Thanks, Steve. That's

14 very interesting work that you're doing there. 

15 Best case scenario, how long before, if

16 everything went well, that kind of a process

17 would yield commercially available methionine?

18 DR. RICKE: Well, I anticipated

19 that question and, unfortunately, I don't have

20 a real good answer for it. We're in the

21 beginning stages. We know who the organisms

22 are, so with that, we're working out how best
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1 to grow them now. I think the next stage is

2 going to require a couple of things. And I

3 know you've heard this several times now,

4 additional funding. Us folks in academics

5 are, in particular, guilty of making that plea

6 all the time, but where we need to go next is

7 to tie-in with a chemical engineer, somebody

8 who can help us with the scale-up part. In

9 other words, come up with ways to design --

10 come up with a good size fermenter that could

11 actually help us to collect the amino acid,

12 come up with a good collection process, which,

13 obviously, would be compatible with an

14 organic-type process.

15 The nice thing is with these

16 excreting organisms, is the amino acid is put

17 out into the media, so there's no chemical

18 extraction per se required. So, I'm

19 optimistic, give us a couple of more years, I

20 think we'll definitely be in the process of --

21 I can come before you again, I think, and be

22 able to lay out some actual game plans. 
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1 The real question here is, is how

2 many organisms would you have to grow to get

3 the amounts required, get up to the tonnage,

4 or whatever that you're going to need, and I

5 can't completely answer that one right now. 

6 But I think as we get at the lab scale, once

7 we get an idea how much methionine is

8 produced, and how to ramp that up a little

9 bit, I think we'll have a pretty good idea of

10 what it's going to take to scale that up. And

11 as a microbiologist, what I would say is a lot

12 depends on how much oxygen is required in the

13 ferment -- you know, if it's fermentation

14 system versus a more aerobic-type system, you

15 know. Laboratory is easy to optimize. When

16 you start getting large-scale, that has its

17 own challenges, to some extent. But I've

18 worked with a chemical engineers a lot over

19 the years, and I feel pretty good about we'll

20 be able to line up with somebody that can help

21 us on that part. And we've made some

22 overtures along those lines already, so does
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1 that answer your - 

2 MR. MOYER: Yes, it gives me a

3 better idea. We're talking a few years before

4 we actually get the plans laid out, and then

5 another -- 

6 DR. RICKE: Yes. Exactly. I

7 mean, there's, obviously, some commercial

8 considerations and that sort of thing. I

9 mean, keep in mind, and I know this has come

10 up a little bit in some discussion points

11 already, is that we're probably not dealing

12 with what I would call intellectual

13 properties, and patents, and that sort of

14 thing, because these are natural isolates. I

15 mean, we've not done any genetic modification

16 or anything like that, nor would we. So,

17 that's one of the upsides of this, is that

18 really it's already an organism, it's already

19 in nature.

20 MR. MOYER: Thank you.

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe.

22 MR. SMILLIE: Have any commercial 
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1 fermenters approached you, or do you have any

2 knowledge if anybody is interested in this?

3 DR. RICKE: I've not been

4 approached, but then I haven't been real

5 aggressive about approaching folks either. I

6 tend to be conservative that way. I like to

7 make sure I've got my ducks in order before I

8 start -- we have enough hype in this business. 

9 I try to -- but, absolutely, once I get a

10 better idea lab-wise, my idea would be to -- I

11 have colleagues in academics that certainly

12 could help us along those lines. And, again,

13 I think Walter brought this point up very

14 well, is it's like a lot of things, I have

15 applied to the OREI in the past for grants and

16 that sort of thing, and all this stuff, the

17 Methionine Task Force has been fantastic in

18 terms of seeding this, and getting us to this

19 point. We really do need to put some

20 investment in this. 

21 I'm going to get on my soapbox

22 here a little bit, because I think it needs to
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1 be said from the academic side, if people

2 really care about this stuff, and really want

3 this to happen, they need to make the case

4 that put the funds into it, and it'll happen. 

5 You know, that's the bottom line here. So, I

6 -- we certainly have -- I don't even want to

7 go into how many grants I've written this

8 year. And I certainly don't want to go into

9 the success percentage on that either, but I

10 think we're seeing some seed changes in USDA

11 in terms of their mentality about stuff. I

12 mean, the new regime that is in place now, the

13 new Program Director, is very much more into

14 stakeholder input, and folks coming in and

15 helping to write those RFPs for the grants,

16 and identifying what the issues are. And I

17 think this audience, and I think everyone

18 needs to be cognizant of that, and help to

19 encourage that. As I said, I'll step back off

20 my soapbox, but I think there's some potential

21 here, but it's an investment potential, too,

22 it's the way we need to look at it.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

2 Just very quickly from the time that I've

3 spent in microbiology lab, very simple

4 question, are the bugs that you're optimistic

5 about, are they easy to grow or hard to grow?

6 DR. RICKE: Yes, one of them in

7 particular is a really easy to grow organism,

8 so it's a fairly ubiquitous organism, and has

9 lots of variants out there, so it wasn't a

10 surprise that we might find one that would be

11 a variant that could do this. And I think one

12 of the long range things that we thought about

13 here is that we wouldn't, necessarily, need to

14 stop at methionine. We certainly could start

15 to look at lysine, we certainly could look at

16 some of the other essential amino acids. I

17 mean, there's -- I work a lot with the

18 conventional poultry industry, as well, and

19 there is a definite need on that side of the

20 equation, as well, with the ethanol driving

21 grain prices, et cetera, to come up with ways

22 to supplement lower quality proteins. And
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1 that's one of the reasons why crystal amino

2 acids retained some popularity along those

3 lines. So, I think there's opportunities here

4 to do some nice precise balancing of diets

5 with some of these approaches. So, I think

6 that's where we want to go with some of what

7 we're doing. 

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

9 Dave Martinelli with a proxy, Greg Herbruck,

10 and Kurt from Nature Pure in the hole.

11 MR. MARTINELLI: Good morning. 

12 Dave Martinelli, I'm with Coleman Natural

13 Foods. We're an organic broiler producer, but

14 I'm actually representing the Methionine Task

15 Force this morning. I'll try to be brief. I

16 have the proxy, but I don't think I'll need

17 the full 10 minutes. We'll just kind of go

18 through this quickly.

19 Just kind of outline, next slide,

20 Valerie, this is what we're going to be

21 talking about. I want to spend a little bit

22 of time on the recommendation coming out of
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1 the Livestock Committee, and also reference

2 some minor adjustments that the Task Force

3 would like to see in the final recommendation. 

4 We'll touch briefly on the research. You've

5 gotten a pretty good update from both Walter

6 and Steve already, but I'll just mention a few

7 other points to both of those. And then,

8 lastly, we'll discuss some of the more recent

9 feeding trial information that we've

10 uncovered.

11 First, an acknowledgment. I do

12 very much appreciate the fact that in our many

13 years of rehashing this topic there seems to

14 at least be an acknowledgment that methionine

15 is a critical and essential amino acid in

16 poultry. We wrote a very detailed petition

17 this time in the justification section talking

18 about the fact that with the vegetarian diet

19 for an omnivore, for an animal that needs meat

20 in its diet given the constraint of the

21 vegetarian diet, it's basically critical that

22 they get some level of methionine for
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1 acceptable development of the immune system,

2 particularly in young birds, baby chicks that

3 need that good start on life so they can ward

4 off other environmental pressures that may be

5 coming their way. So, I think that's just a

6 thank you very much for at least -- we can

7 argue about how much, but at least

8 acknowledgment that it is a critical and

9 important amino acid.

10 We have two suggestions, and these

11 are both covered in our written comments, as

12 well, but just to address the Board, and

13 entertain questions around them. We feel that

14 pullets, because, again, we're dealing with

15 baby chicks and birds up to 27 weeks of age,

16 that those should really be carved out as a

17 separate category from laying hens. They have

18 different methionine needs. And our

19 suggestion is to group them together with

20 broilers, which also encompass birds from day

21 old chicks, all the way to market age. And

22 our suggestion would be that as we hit the
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1 step-down levels, kind of the second point of

2 this, effective 2012, our recommendation would

3 be that both broilers and pullets get three

4 pounds per ton, as opposed to the two pounds

5 per ton that were recommended. The layers go

6 from four pounds to two pounds in the step7 down, broilers actually, currently, are

8 recommended to go from five pounds to two

9 pounds, so there's kind of a disproportionate

10 drop in broilers, and also if this

11 recommendation were accepted, in pullets, as

12 well. There's not only a disproportionate

13 decrease in the allowance, but it's happening

14 in a category of birds that probably has the

15 single highest level of methionine demand,

16 because of their age, and their stage of life,

17 and growth. Next slide, please.

18 It's also important to underscore

19 that the majority of methionine for the birds

20 will still be coming from grain sources in

21 their diet. Technically, the diet will be

22 deficient of methionine, but of the methionine
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1 that is present in the diet on the step-down

2 levels, 82 percent of the diet at a minimum,

3 it varies by class of birds, but this is the

4 lowest percentage, 82 percent of the

5 methionine in the diet will be met from grain

6 sources, so we're still talking about the

7 majority of the birds' methionine needs being

8 met by grains, and only a very small

9 supplemental percentage being provided by the

10 synthetic.

11 There's some different

12 perspectives on whether even the three pounds

13 is adequate for broilers and pullets. We were

14 able to find at least one major breeder

15 producer, High Line, that recommends for baby

16 chicks, I think it's 2.88 pounds of methionine

17 per ton, so that's kind of how the -- why the

18 Task Force settled on three pounds, but you

19 will probably hear comments today that even

20 three pounds isn't sufficient. Again, we can

21 argue over the level, but we're trying to live

22 with the absolute bare minimum that we need
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1 for maintenance of basic health requirements

2 for the bird.

3 Just to segue a little bit into

4 some of the research alternatives. Again,

5 you've heard from Walter in detail about some

6 of the seed trials. I'm going to speak,

7 specifically, to some trials that we did with

8 Walter's seed with Sun Opta. We did two plots

9 in Iowa, specifically raising the corn for

10 feeding trials. We had a 35-acre site that

11 came in with a disappointing yield, about 66

12 percent of the control groups. And then we

13 had a second 40-acre site that was really kind

14 of off the chart, disappointing at 23 percent

15 of the control groups. So, this has been a

16 bit of a setback, frankly, because we had

17 hoped that we would get something more

18 consistent with some of the test plot work

19 that shows more the 87 or 90 percent

20 comparison to control, so about a 10-13

21 percent yield drag. And seeing yield drags

22 like this creates a significant problem, just
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1 in terms of making the project even a go. 

2 So, the second leg of this, we've

3 had the disappointing agronomic results, but

4 the second, from our perspective, more

5 important element of this is then to take that

6 feed corn that we do have, and start running

7 feeding trials. In two weeks, we're going to

8 start feeding trials of broilers in

9 California. The work that's been done so far

10 has been on extremely small bird counts, I

11 mean like 50 birds, so we've got some test

12 housing in California that we've used

13 previously, that'll probably run, I think the

14 high methionine corn trial will be somewhere

15 between 400-800 birds, so at least we get

16 something closer to approximating a commercial

17 setting.

18 This is just kind of a graphical

19 picture. I don't know if it really shows in

20 this light, but here on the left is organic

21 corn from the control group, and here on the

22 right is the high methionine corn. Not only
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1 is the ear size smaller, but the kernels

2 themselves are smaller, as well. 

3 We heard from Steve on the first

4 bullet point here about naturally produced

5 methionine, so I don't think I -- he certainly

6 knows a lot more about it than I do, and I

7 think he covered it very well, so I'm not

8 going to spend any time there. 

9 You did hear a presentation, I

10 want to say about a year ago, from a group

11 that was working on alfalfa nutrient

12 concentrate, again, an area of disappointment. 

13 We haven't really been able to engage the

14 vendor. We sent emails, asked for spec

15 sheets, asked to get a time line of when this

16 product produced organically, and where

17 they're at in the process, and there's just

18 really been no follow-up, no response. So,

19 we've poked, we've prodded, we've tried to get

20 it moving along, and there's just been no

21 reaction. So, I'm kind of putting that in the

22 category of not viable at this point. 
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1 Obviously, if it revives, we'll pursue it, but

2 at this point, I think we probably need to

3 move on and focus on the high methionine corn

4 and naturally produced methionine.

5 In terms of feeding trial results,

6 Herbruck's ran a layer trial, and I think the

7 two most significant take-aways on this, in

8 the no methionine group, there was significant

9 feather loss, particularly at the end of the

10 test cycle. And, again, this is a no

11 methionine group, not the step-down level that

12 we're talking about. But I've got a slide

13 following this from the 2008 study in Sweden,

14 and there's a very consistent trend here in

15 terms of feather loss in birds that don't have

16 adequate levels of methionine. 

17 Interestingly enough, they also

18 have a reduced foot pad size in the no

19 methionine group in the layer trial, and this

20 is really Michigan State's speculation, but

21 the hens could not maintain covered body

22 temperature, and they were trying to --
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1 because the feathering wasn't in place

2 adequately, but they were trying to use stored

3 body fats to clean the foot pad, to try to

4 compensate. So, it's just another example

5 that when you go to a strictly no methionine

6 diet, you have some significant health

7 problems within the birds. 

8 Again, with the broiler trials

9 that we're going to start in two weeks, we'll

10 include high methionine corn, and we're also

11 going to run trials on fish meal, just to see

12 (a) if it works from a performance standpoint,

13 if the birds look okay and feather properly,

14 but, also (b) if there's other -- we'll then

15 do a sensory analysis of the meat to see if

16 there's any flavor issue that's come up before

17 as a possible issue in terms of inclusion

18 rates of fish meal in the diet.

19 And the last slide I have here is

20 about the results of the trial in Sweden. You

21 may have seen this before at the last Board

22 meeting, but I thought I'd include it again,
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1 since it's a fairly recent trial. The

2 important thing is feathering was very poor. 

3 In this particular trial, it was manifested in

4 much higher levels of feed intake. And I've

5 got appendices at the end of this report that

6 has detail on that trial, as well as the

7 detail on the methionine percentage of the

8 diet that's met from grains versus the

9 synthetic, as well. So, I won't bore you all

10 with that, but that's included as part of the

11 presentation that you can view later. So,

12 that concludes what I have to say.

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. Any

14 questions? Steve.

15 MR. DeMURI: Thanks for your

16 presentation. Weren't you guys working on an

17 insect option, as well?

18 MR. MARTINELLI: Yes, there was

19 like an insect meal product that was really

20 coming out of the aquaculture industry, and

21 that really has tended the same track record

22 as this alfalfa nutrient concentrate where it
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1 was supposed to be this product that would

2 solve our problems, and we finally did get a

3 spec sheet, I think, a year and a half ago out

4 of that group. It's basically got the same

5 nutritional profile, including methionine as

6 soybean meal which we currently feed, and to

7 my knowledge, they really abandoned that

8 project. I've not gotten any further follow9 up with them about where they're at in the

10 process.

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Dave,

12 aside from the comments that we have online

13 that we're reading, the ones who just said we

14 were totally crazy one way or the other. Of

15 the people who analyzed our step-down, I think

16 the pullets were fairly universal, and

17 suggesting that we move them. You're also

18 suggesting the broilers. Can you give just a

19 little bit of additional justification for us

20 to be able to make that move?

21 MR. MARTINELLI: Yes, I guess

22 there's two reasons, primarily. One is the age
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1 of the bird. With broilers, you're dealing

2 with baby chicks, as you are pullets, and they

3 have a disproportionally high methionine

4 demand at that stage of life. So, somehow we

5 need to address that. And that's -- actually,

6 when we wrote our petition it was around an

7 average, because there is a disproportionally

8 high need at the beginning that's offset by a

9 lower need with older birds. 

10 I think the critical thing is that

11 we get adequate methionine to the birds at the

12 stage of life that they need it. And in the

13 case of broilers, they were going down from

14 five pounds to two pounds, there's actually a

15 60 percent reduction, TAP provided for a 60

16 percent reduction, which didn't seem

17 consistent with what we were doing with the

18 other categories.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Could you

20 give us a number that we could possibly

21 utilize as a maximum at saying all chicks, and

22 putting a maximum age?
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1 MR. MARTINELLI: You mean carving

2 out broilers separate from pullets then? So,

3 you'd actually have --

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Just

5 carving out all chicks.

6 MR. MARTINELLI: Well, we're

7 saying up to 27 weeks, so 27 weeks -- 

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Twenty9 seven weeks.

10 MR. MARTINELLI: -- would solve

11 the problem, because you're going to cover

12 broilers with that.

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: And how

14 far do broilers go after 27 weeks?

15 MR. MARTINELLI: Well, broilers

16 don't go to 27 weeks.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: But the

18 pullets need 27 weeks.

19 MR. MARTINELLI: Right. And that

20 would be our recommendation, actually, to have

21 a specific number, as opposed to pullets. 

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 
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1 Greg Herbruck, Kurt Lausecker on deck, and

2 Steve Mahrt in the hole.

3 MR. HERBRUCK: Good morning. My

4 name is Greg Herbruck. I'm an organic egg

5 producer in Michigan, and my brothers and I,

6 we've been producing organic eggs since 1998. 

7 And we were a part of the large growth that's

8 been going on in the organics. We believed in

9 the USDA organic program, that this was -- to

10 develop new markets. And this was a new

11 market for our company, and we have invested

12 millions of dollars in that growth. We have -

13 - and I'm in the chicken house just about

14 every day. And the Cornucopia study is right,

15 this proposed guidelines for living conditions

16 and stocking standards, and outside access

17 will put us out of business. We did not build

18 these currently certified organic houses with

19 some of these standards in mind. And if they

20 are imposed upon us, then we will not be able

21 to produce.

22 The standard, and the assumption
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1 that then 80 percent of the guys that are like

2 us that have a house similar that cannot

3 either economically depopulate enough but

4 still pay the bills, that there's a cage-free

5 market for our eggs if we are not organic. 

6 That market will quickly become a commodity

7 market because there's too many of us out

8 there already who have also -- that will

9 follow me later in the day that have invested

10 likewise millions of dollars. So, I challenge

11 the NOSB to think about that as they look at

12 setting a standard, that we are currently

13 certified organic, and have been for many

14 years. And these new standards could well put

15 us out of business. 

16 As we look at some of these

17 stocking standards, I know for some of the

18 sources were mentioned, I think the idea of

19 considering further is merit. There are

20 several sources that I work with through some

21 of my farm industry standard boards,

22 university ethicists and bird behaviorists
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1 that have not been contacted yet, and I would

2 strongly encourage that we do so as we

3 proceed.

4 There's also existing standards

5 that were developed on a science base, and an

6 ethics base. American Humane Association has

7 one such, Humane Farm Animal Care has one,

8 that have all gone through a similar process

9 that we're seeking to do, and in the absence

10 of any guidance or direction from the NOP,

11 most of us have all accepted those and are

12 being certified and audited by those groups. 

13 So, I would encourage that we look to what has

14 been accomplished there. 

15 And one thing that is not in the

16 initial standard, and what needs more research

17 is the type of housing. There are multitudes

18 of housing systems out there that affect how

19 a hen's life goes on. There are flat floor

20 barn systems, there's raised perch systems,

21 roost systems, and then there's what's called

22 aviaries, where it's multi-tier, where they
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1 actually are free flying to move about in the

2 system. None of those are considered in this,

3 and should be, and there are standards with

4 these other two groups I mentioned.

5 The third point I'd like to

6 mention is the outside access rule. As an egg

7 producer, we're also going to be required to

8 comply with a new FDA rule July of this year,

9 whereby we're required to clean and disinfect

10 all living surfaces. If we have to increase

11 and have more outside access, and more pasture

12 area, the FDA will require us to disinfect

13 those surfaces, and I don't know how we will

14 do that. 

15 The other thing is that rodents

16 are a major vector of salmonella, and in the

17 higher -- where we are, they're off concrete

18 or a hard surface, they're more likely to have

19 contact with rodents that very likely are one

20 of the major sources of salmonella in eggs

21 today, and will increase the risk of that in

22 the finished product, and reduce food safety. 
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1 So, I think we should consider all those as

2 you moved ahead. And, like I said, the goals

3 of the USDA are to promote and build markets,

4 and some of these guidelines will reduce

5 markets. Thank you.

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jeff.

7 MR. MOYER: Thank you Greg. Am I

8 to understand that your birds don't go

9 outdoors at all right now?

10 MR. HERBRUCK: Oh, no. Yes, they

11 go outside, yes. But 20 percent of the living

12 space is outside access.

13 MR. MOYER: Is that on porches?

14 MR. HERBRUCK: Porches, just

15 fenced in areas all types. I guess they all -

16 - that's the requirement, they have to -- they

17 have access 365 days a year. 

18 MR. MOYER: And are you currently

19 disinfecting those areas?

20 MR. HERBRUCK: Yes. And most of

21 them are covered in concrete. There's a few

22 of our smaller farms that actually they're
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1 going out of business. We had one contract

2 producer that worked with us, couldn't comply

3 with some of these new guidelines. Instead of

4 adding the extra surfaces, chose to go out, so

5 we had roughly 190,000 capacity just

6 depopulate in the last month.

7 MR. MOYER: So, unlike the person

8 we heard before who was trying to get his

9 birds on grass, so that's 75 percent

10 vegetative, your's is on concrete when they're

11 outdoors. I'm just trying to get a picture of

12 it.

13 MR. HERBRUCK: Most of them, yes. 

14 They're called winter gardens, porches, all

15 types of things. Some of them we even have

16 roosting areas where they can go out and get

17 up higher staying away from some of the --

18 depending on the size, and it was mentioned

19 that the main pathway areas, the difficulty

20 with laying hens is keeping grass in there

21 because they love to tear it up, and it's

22 gone. I mean, when I looked at some of the
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1 initial proposals, I don't know how we'd keep

2 them because chickens just love to scratch. 

3 And you'll be to bare dirt very quick. And

4 they love to burrow. They'll be down under,

5 and rodents also like those burrows, as well,

6 so we're going to increase the contact with

7 high-risk opportunities, and rodents are one

8 of the main carriers of salmonella. That is

9 one of the risks to the food safety.

10 MR. MOYER: And how many square

11 feet per bird of outdoor access do you

12 currently - 

13 MR. HERBRUCK: Well, it's anywhere

14 around 20-25 percent of the -- depending on

15 the system. We have all three types of -- or

16 three types of systems, barn systems in the

17 American Humane and Humane Farm Animal Care

18 are 1.5 square feet. The raised roost system

19 is 1.2, the aviary is one square foot. And

20 this is all designed around how well these

21 birds interact in the system, are they

22 protected, do they have safe places? I mean,
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1 pecking order came from birds, and the better

2 designed system best protects the lower

3 hierarchy birds, and gives areas for the

4 dominant birds to stay away from them. So, on

5 a flat floor system, I've seen it myself when

6 some group decided to pick on one bird, that

7 bird can be dead in a few moments. 

8 MR. MOYER: Thank you.

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe.

10 MR. SMILLIE: Greg, your current -

11 I realize you're dealing with complex systems,

12 and there's no one single answer, but,

13 currently, do all of your systems meet current

14 USDA regulations? 

15 MR. HERBRUCK: Yes.

16 MR. SMILLIE: We know that, and do

17 they all meet the HSUS Humane Welfare

18 Standards, or just -- the Humane Society.

19 MR. HERBRUCK: Humane Farm Animal

20 Care, and American Humane Association?

21 MR. SMILLIE: Right.

22 MR. HERBRUCK: Yes.
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1 MR. SMILLIE: They all meet.

2 MR. HERBRUCK: They all meet it.

3 MR. SMILLIE: Okay.

4 MR. HERBRUCK: And we had to make

5 a lot of changes. There was specific

6 requirements for nest space, for perch space,

7 for dust bathing, for all the various

8 behavioral things that a bird needs to go

9 through in a day, feed and water also. So,

10 those all should be considered as you move

11 forward.

12 MR. SMILLIE: We had a speaker

13 this morning that supported our current

14 recommendation on -- wasn't that a Humane

15 Society speaker? I think it was that, but

16 we'll follow-up and find out what the

17 discrepancy seems to be there. 

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: HSUS and

19 HSA.

20 MR. SMILLIE: Oh, okay. They're

21 different groups. Okay. 

22 The last thing is, has there been
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1 any networking with your Canadian colleagues

2 that are currently facing this implementation

3 of their regulation? They've got a soft

4 enforcement for two years, and have you

5 dialogued with them on the current Canadian

6 regulations which are slowly being enforced?

7 MR. HERBRUCK: Minimally. The main

8 difference between Canada and the US, Canada

9 has a quota system, so they have -- they will

10 not -- I mean, they have a market order, and

11 any excess production winds up in the US They

12 are almost guaranteed a profit. In the US, we

13 have no such quota system that we can work

14 with, and we can rely on to support and

15 develop a standard. They set -- the Quota

16 System Board sets the price of the eggs, so in

17 the US it's market price. If you have extra

18 eggs, you sell them until they're gone, or I

19 mean you drop your price until they're gone. 

20 And in Canada, they don't have to deal with

21 that risk. 

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: In Canada,
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1 that's a provincial quota system. Correct?

2 MR. HERBRUCK: Yes.

3 MR. SMILLIE: I think we have to

4 take a lot of things into consideration. The

5 fact that you're currently meeting standards,

6 and it looks as if we are creating an unstable

7 regulatory environment for the entire

8 industry, I think we need to look at that very

9 carefully. 

10 MR. HERBRUCK: We speculated that

11 80 percent of the current housing will not

12 meet it. And I think that the Cornucopia

13 study supported that, that my brothers all

14 said we'll be out of business because we can't

15 work the bank, we can't pay back the bank.

16 We'll have to come up with tens, if not

17 hundreds of thousands of more growers to meet

18 it with the smaller sized populations that are

19 out there.

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

21 Thank you.

22 MR. HERBRUCK: Thank you.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

2 One quick minute as the next speaker comes up,

3 Kurt Lausecker, Steve Mahrt, and George Bass. 

4 As Joe tends to remind, it's good to be Chair. 

5 One of the things you can do is take a

6 personal minute. As we've heard before, it is

7 good to have a meeting outside of the D.C.

8 area on the west coast. For me, I'm an hour

9 and a half from home, so my wife is able to

10 come, and the best secretary, and the best

11 editor in the world. So, I - 

12 (Laughter.)

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

14 MR. LAUSECKER: Thank you for

15 allowing me to comment on the proposed

16 National Organic Standard Board's Animal

17 Welfare recommendations for organic laying

18 hens. My name is Kurt Lausecker, and together

19 with my wife, Gertie, who is also here today,

20 I'm the owner of Nature Pure, an organic egg

21 farm in Raymond, Ohio. 

22 I worked for 30 years as manager
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1 of Daily Egg Farm, a layer operation with two

2 million laying hens in cages, and about

3 200,000 cage-free organic laying hens. Three

4 years ago, I was able to buy the organic part

5 of Daily Egg Farm, including an organic feed

6 mill. The investment at the time was several

7 million dollars. I have a strong commitment

8 to animal welfare, and served on the Animal

9 Welfare Committee of United Egg Producers. 

10 My dream came true when I invested

11 in organic food production. This is my life

12 now, and the life of my family. My farm

13 consists of six laying buildings for 32,000

14 layers each, and one processing room with an

15 egg crater and a cooler. I also have one

16 organic pullet house, and I employ

17 approximately 35 people, and buy organic grain

18 from more than 13 local organic farmers.

19 All buildings have state-of-the20 art equipment for cage-free organic egg

21 production, and were furnished according to

22 current organic and cage-free rules and
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1 regulations, as outlined by the AHC, and the

2 National Organic Program. 

3 Just two weeks ago, my company

4 passed an American Humane Certified Audit with

5 99 out of 100 points. While I agree with the

6 concerns submitted by the US commercial size

7 organic farms, there is one issue that is of

8 critical importance to me. I'm here just to

9 let you know that the proposed outside space

10 of 1.8 square foot per bird will -- what they

11 will do to my company. I cannot comply. I

12 just do not have additional outside space

13 available. 

14 When the original transition from

15 caged laying hens to cage-free organic laying

16 hens was made, the existing buildings were

17 utilized. While I am in compliance with the

18 current requirements for outside access, I am

19 very restricted on outside space. The

20 proposed recommendations would reduce the

21 number of hens in my houses from 32,000 to

22 less than 5,000. 
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1 My young company is highly

2 leveraged, and our financing is spread out

3 over the useful life of the buildings and the

4 equipment. If the recommendations will be

5 implemented as proposed without

6 grandfathering, they would force my company

7 out of business, since I cannot repay my

8 loans. Thirty-five employees would lose their

9 job, and many local organic farmers would have

10 to look for another market. Because egg

11 production is my only source of income, I

12 would lose everything I worked for in 35

13 years. Thank you. 

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

15 Jeff.

16 MR. MOYER: Your birds go outside

17 right now, or have some access to outdoors. 

18 Is that correct?

19 MR. LAUSECKER: Yes.

20 MR. MOYER: And how many square

21 feet do they have right now?

22 MR. LAUSECKER: Outside access?
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1 MR. MOYER: Yes.

2 MR. LAUSECKER: About 35 percent

3 of the living space that they have inside.

4 MR. MOYER: Okay. And what is the

5 outdoor access, it is concrete porches?

6 MR. LAUSECKER: No, that's just

7 fenced in and covered - 

8 MR. MOYER: Fenced in, covered.

9 MR. LAUSECKER: -- grass area,

10 pasture.

11 MR. MOYER: Okay.

12 MR. LAUSECKER: It's interesting

13 to note, however, that how few birds really

14 take advantage of the outside areas. This is

15 something that is really surprising to me, and

16 this is just an observation I made in my own

17 company. I would expect really that there are

18 far more birds outside than there actually

19 are. Personally, I believe the reason is that

20 birds generally are really worried about

21 predators flying over them, and they really

22 shy to the outside. I just want to mention
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1 this because I think this gets somehow

2 overlooked, that in reality birds are really

3 not taking advantage of the outside areas that

4 we even propose right now, have right now.

5 MR. MOYER: Thank you.

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Wendy.

7 MS. FULWIDER: What do you have

8 for access doors?

9 MR. LAUSECKER: There are openings

10 about five feet to six feet wide, and maybe

11 two feet high, numerous. I mean, ten on each

12 side of the building, ten, fifteen.

13 MS. FULWIDER: Thank you.

14 MR. LAUSECKER: Thank you very

15 much.

16 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

17 Okay. Steve Mahrt up, Greg Bass on deck,

18 Robert Beauregard in the hole.

19 MR. MAHRT: Well, good morning. 

20 It seems like 100 years ago I was here in the

21 `90s testifying about organic egg production,

22 and here I am again. And some of the same
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1 issues are still here. 

2 One of my concerns is being echoed

3 here, is that I took an old cage layer house

4 ranch, and I initially converted to cage-free. 

5 And in `95 we were one of the first certified

6 egg producers in California. And, at that

7 time, it was an experiment, not knowing how it

8 was going to work out. And those of us lucky

9 to live in California with all the wonderful

10 water quality control issues that we have, air

11 quality control issues, and every other issue

12 you can think of, and some we haven't invented

13 yet, but we will, we worry about not only the

14 chickens, the environment, our customers, our

15 competition, and the folks that work for us. 

16 And with this new onset of proposed

17 regulations, I'll tell you, I can't move my

18 chicken house. We don't have enough space. 

19 I can't afford enough land to fulfill these

20 regulations. Our houses are open-sided. We

21 naturally ventilate our chickens, we naturally

22 light our chickens as much as possible. I
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1 mean, it's kind of part of our whole

2 sustainable creed that we use. We try not to

3 use any outside inputs, as little as possible,

4 and then we have roosting areas outside. We

5 are faced -- we have areas right next to our

6 farm where we have large populations of

7 migratory birds, and for those of you that

8 haven't kind of kept up with it, because

9 you're not chicken farmers, avian influenza is

10 a big scary deal. And we're very concerned

11 about contaminating our chickens because -- I

12 don't know if you guys realize what happens

13 when a chicken gets avian influenza. It dies,

14 and it's very rapid. 

15 The other thing that we're

16 concerned about, and the CDC is concerned

17 about is that the birds that give our chickens

18 potentially avian influenza, that some of that

19 mutates and gets passed on to our customers. 

20 And that's the absolute last thing we want.

21 Another issue that makes it even

22 more fun is federally now the FDA has decided
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1 that eggs are the cause of all things. We got

2 passed cholesterol, and now we're being blamed

3 for virtually all the salmonella issues in the

4 United States, even though the data they used

5 was from the early `90s. We vaccinate all our

6 chickens, we've tested our eggs, but that

7 doesn't matter to the FDA at this point, and

8 the problem is that we've got two regulatory

9 bodies that we've got two regulatory bodies

10 that are going heads on at each other. USDA,

11 you guys say put them outside more, give them

12 more space, and the FDA says well, you're

13 going to have to swab all the environment, and

14 if you run across one pellet from a mouse, you

15 could be a positive sample, and then you've

16 got to invert all your eggs to the breaking

17 plant. And guess which breaking plant is

18 going to want eggs that have possibly positive

19 for salmonella. Gee, I don't think there's a

20 lot of them signing up and saying I want to do

21 this. Well, wait a minute, maybe I will, but

22 I won't give you anything for the eggs,
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1 because I'm taking such a risk. Okay?

2 So, my experience in the US

3 talking to a few folks over the years is that

4 if you're positive for salmonella, you

5 depopulate the birds. Okay? So, you're

6 recruiting an untenable situation for us by

7 expanding the requirement for outdoor access

8 because the threshold is 3,000 birds. That's

9 not a very big organic farm. 

10 One of the things that we'd all

11 like to do is be diversified. Right? The

12 problem is, a pretty large amount of expertise

13 is required to raise chickens nowadays. I

14 mean, we're talking about methionine. That's

15 an essential amino acid. We're getting pretty

16 sophisticated. Okay? 

17 On my farm, I have a guy that

18 raises potatoes. My brother has an organic

19 dairy on our farm, but we all share our

20 expertise, and share the farm. My part of the

21 farm, there's roads, and I can't move my

22 chicken houses any further. 
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1 The last point I want to make is

2 that I'm in support of the Task Force because

3 methionine, it even says in your last meeting,

4 is amino acids are as important as vitamins

5 and proper food sources. So, once again, I am

6 concerned about what the FDA is going to do to

7 us. I don't even know if any of us are going

8 to pass, because we don't do environmental

9 testing very regularly, but we do egg testing. 

10 So, anyway, questions.

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

12 Jeff.

13 MR. MOYER: Thanks, Steve. I'm

14 going to ask you sort of the same question I

15 asked of the last producer.

16 MR. MAHRT: Sure.

17 MR. MOYER: Do your birds go

18 outside at all?

19 MR. MAHRT: They go out some, but

20 remember, our houses are way open, so they can

21 sun themselves, so there isn't quite the need. 

22 But I'm not in -- I'm in West Sonoma County. 
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1 I'm not in the Midwest where there's snow, and

2 it's cold. So, our birds, our wall is only

3 this tall on nine foot high buildings, so they

4 can sun themselves in the house, and naturally

5 ventilate. And we don't use any outside

6 lights except in the morning and evening.

7 MR. MOYER: Okay. So, if we were

8 to pick a square foot number, what kind of

9 square footage number would you - 

10 MR. MAHRT: Well, I don't know

11 what the -- I think that that should be left

12 up to the certifier. I mean, I think that

13 conforming with the rules -- this thing has

14 been in existence for 10 years. I don't think

15 it's broken. I think the issue you have is

16 the consumer perception that there's kind of

17 an industrialization of organic, and I think

18 that's what you guys are wrestling with. And

19 the problem is that anything in production

20 agriculture is a little bit of a compromise. 

21 Okay? We have human welfare, we have animal

22 welfare, and then we've also got farmer
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1 welfare. Right? Because one of the key

2 linchpins of sustainable is we've got to make

3 a profit, because nobody is going to loan us

4 any money to do this stuff, if we can't make

5 you profitable. Right? So, it's -- the

6 certifier I think is the manner -- for you to

7 try to make a -- that's why it was so hard

8 before when I was testifying years ago, that's

9 why they left it pretty open and up to the

10 certifier, because it isn't one size fits all. 

11 You know, I mean, I have -- we do some

12 business with a major organic cooperative. 

13 Okay? Well, I've seen their places in the

14 middle of winter. Okay? Birds don't go

15 outside. They can't. The snow is over the

16 top of the damned doors, so what are they

17 going to do? So, you've got to really think

18 about the environment in the house. You've

19 got to provide for those birds.

20 The other thing, I've been in

21 Europe a number of times looking at organic

22 communities. Okay? They keep wanting to push
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1 the birds further out, and the birds keep

2 saying no. Okay? No matter how much the

3 consumer wants kind of the bonanza chicken,

4 okay, the chicken has a say in it, and they

5 don't go very far. I should have brought it. 

6 I have a picture, an overhead picture of a

7 pretty sophisticated organic layer operation

8 in England, and there's dirt paths around

9 every single building. Now, the guys that

10 move their birds, this pasture-based system,

11 that's cool if you're in Virginia where you

12 get rain a number days a year, but I'll tell

13 you, this is an unusual year for us. Most of

14 our stuff is going to -- normally, in another

15 month or so, they call it the Golden State. 

16 That's not because it's gold, it's because

17 everything is dry, and there is no more

18 pasture or forage out there. Okay? So, they

19 get zip. Okay? What they do get is angst as

20 we're full of red-tail hawks in our area, and

21 every time one of those suckers flies over,

22 even if the birds are inside, they see them,
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1 they go on the other side of the chicken

2 house, because guess what, to them that's

3 still scary. Even though we say it's not

4 scary, they still think it is. 

5 MR. MOYER: I have one follow-up

6 question to that.

7 MR. MAHRT: Sure.

8 MR. MOYER: When you described

9 your laying house, to me it sounds very sunny,

10 airy, and comfortable. If a consumer of your

11 eggs came to visit your farm, would they be

12 happy with what they see, in your opinion?

13 MR. MAHRT: It depends where

14 they're sitting. It really depends on where

15 they're sitting. I mean, I've brought people

16 and there's chickens all over the place and

17 they go gosh, they're crowded. Then I show

18 them a picture at night, and they're all

19 sitting up in the roost, and you can run

20 through the place. Okay? So, it really

21 depends where they're sitting. I've had

22 people that thought we were wonderful. And
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1 I've had people that said well, you should

2 only have five chickens in there. I mean,

3 that's such a broad statement that it's really

4 tough for me to answer. I think most of our

5 customers like what we do, but I'm sure

6 there's always somebody, and my wife answers

7 all the emails, there's always a few that say,

8 you know, I'm a devil. And there's a lot of

9 them that say we're good, but there's always

10 a couple that say we're the devil.

11 MR. MOYER: Well, how many square

12 feet do you have inside your building per

13 bird?

14 MR. MAHRT: It's about 175.

15 MR. MOYER: One seventy-five -- 

16 MR. MAHRT: But we have different

17 tiers, you know, so the birds can move into

18 different directions, because there's a

19 definite pecking order. You've heard that

20 today. All right? So, we want to make

21 different areas for different birds in the

22 pecking order, to be able to have
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1 relationships.

2 MR. MOYER: Thank you.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Other

4 questions? Thank you.

5 MR. MAHRT: Very well. Thank you.

6 By the way, I want to thank all you guys. 

7 This is not a fun job. It wasn't a fun job 20

8 years ago, and I can't imagine it getting any

9 better, so thank you guys all very much for

10 your time.

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Where do

12 people get this idea? It's a blast. 

13 (Laughter.)

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Yes, at

15 9:00 tonight when we're still going, it's a

16 blast.

17 MR. MOYER: Dan, apparently we

18 don't look like we're having fun.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Well, we

20 apologize then. George Bass, Robert

21 Beauregard, Hal Kreher, however you say. Hal,

22 you're in the hole. 
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1 MR. BASS: Thank you very much. 

2 To the Committee and the staff, thank you all

3 the time for the past and the present members

4 of the NOSB Committee, and thank you to the

5 staff which have worked very hard for the NOP

6 for the public, and also the producers. 

7 These are some of the important

8 points of the Country Hen. Number one, even

9 before the company was certified organic, the

10 barns had hens on the floor, and had many,

11 many windows back to back on both sides of the

12 barns open to rain and the good weather. 

13 Every year each barn would be carefully

14 cleaned by eight people. All manure was taken

15 to other fields. All of this is going on

16 today. 

17 Number two, the porches of the

18 farm are part of our certified organic system

19 plan. I think we were the first certification. 

20 Number three, there should not be more hundred

21 hens per acre to keep the grass. We have

22 about 70,000 hens, therefore, we should have
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1 700 acres. The cost of the land, building,

2 and equipment would be exorbitant. Number

3 four, we didn't want manure building up on the

4 barn dirt so that non-potable water would get

5 into the nearby large lake that supplies

6 drinking water to Boston. This lake reservoir

7 was closed to our farm. It's about 70 miles

8 from Boston. Number five, the porches will

9 stop the risk of migration of wild birds

10 spreading external disease, AI. There are

11 many internal diseases that can develop from

12 hens in barren dirt. 

13 As you know, cows are different

14 from chickens. The disease was awful, at

15 times you've seen it, over 250 million birds

16 in China, they killed those hens, 250 million

17 birds because the AI. And, also, in

18 Pennsylvania, if you know about it, there are

19 17 million birds died AI because they have AI. 

20 So, there is difficult -- I think they're very

21 difficult. They're much more difficult as

22 cows are not very good. I mean, the cows go
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1 outside. 

2 Our customers have completed two

3 surveys about porches. In 2002, we sent about

4 150,000 inserts in the cartons of the eggs to

5 our customers. There were a total of 1,560

6 answers. Eighty percent were positive, 20

7 were negative. And we started another one. 

8 This came in this year, and the lady was doing

9 it, she was fantastic. She did it during the

10 night, and during the day, and she sent out

11 900 letters to our customers, and also about

12 1,000 emails. And these, which happened for

13 these surveys, she got 405 replies to date,

14 392 of the responses or 96.8. That's a vote

15 of positives, and so that is fantastic. I

16 really think that these people, our customers,

17 understand that these porches are okay.

18 There's no problem at all. Therefore, I'd

19 just like to thank you. 

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay.

21 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you for your

22 comments. I have a question I wish I had
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1 asked everybody that sort of testified on this

2 issue, but if you were to distinguish for a

3 consumer between organically certified

4 production, egg production, and conventional,

5 how would you describe the difference? How

6 would you distinguish the two to the consuming

7 public?

8 MR. BASS: Thinking about the

9 customers, some like the organics, and other

10 like the commercial?

11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

12 MR. BASS: Well, most people --

13 anybody -- excuse me. I shouldn't say that,

14 but we're the best of those eggs of anybody

15 ourselves. We've done it for 22 years. 

16 Therefore, the quality I think is much, much

17 better. Basically, and they understand what

18 we do on the farm.

19 MR. FELDMAN: On the production

20 side, what would be the key differences that

21 you believe the consumer is concerned about?

22 MR. BASS: On the customers?
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1 MR. FELDMAN: On the production,

2 on your production side.

3 MR. BASS: Right now, it's on the

4 computer, and, therefore, we've got those four

5 photos that explains what happens. And we

6 sent it. We gave a lot of information on that

7 thing, the lady that set all that stuff. So,

8 therefore, hopefully, the public could

9 understand why it should be.

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Other

11 questions? Okay. Seeing none, thank you. 

12 Robert Beauregard, Hal, I apologize for that

13 last name, and Arnold Riebli.

14 MR. BEAUREGARD: Good morning. My

15 name is Bob Beauregard, and I'm the General

16 Manager of the Country Hen. And I have this

17 thing all written up that I was going to read. 

18 I think that hearing from some of the past

19 producers, it's just very repetitive. 

20 The issues that we have with the

21 outdoor access and the conflicting new

22 guidance for FDA issues, environment will have
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1 to be tested. So, obviously, this is about

2 the outdoor access, and the animal welfare. 

3 So, I'm going to ask a question. If the

4 chickens are out in the pasture, I would think

5 that that would be environment. Environmental

6 testing will be required between the ages of

7 40 and 45 weeks of age.

8 If a positive result comes in from

9 an environmental test, all of our eggs will be

10 required to be tested. If the eggs come back

11 as a positive, which they probably wouldn't,

12 they would be diverted into a breaking plant,

13 as one of the past producers. But you

14 certainly would come up with positive results

15 in a free range system testing that

16 environment. Not only the rodents, you have

17 the pigeons, you have the bats, and several

18 others that carry salmonella naturally. So,

19 it's a conflicting side of the issue.

20 To go a little bit deeper, APHIS

21 has a -- sister, USDA sister, APHIS, has

22 guidance documents that support exactly how we
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1 produce our eggs with our hens. It's a porch

2 system that's fully netted. We use a clear

3 plastic roof. We provide about .15 percent

4 square footage per bird. As past producers

5 have testified, none of the birds want to

6 really go out there. They really don't want

7 to go out. You do see numbers going out

8 there. Sometimes the porches are completely

9 full. They should be bigger. I think that,

10 you know -- I mean, we developed our organic

11 system plan based on the rule that's presently

12 in the register right now. So, our whole

13 entire organic system plan was based on that.

14 We built the porches on the barns, we added

15 this at a lot, a lot of cost, millions of

16 dollars in new equipment, buildings, putting

17 the porches on. And, again, just to reiterate

18 that with the square footage recommendations

19 that you've put out there, we certainly would

20 not comply, and we would be out of business as

21 soon as the rules were enforced. 

22 So, we feel that the hen's welfare
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1 and safety issues are -- the hens will be

2 better protected in this type of a system, a

3 porch system with a roof, a clear roof. We

4 use a clear roof over the top of it. It's

5 completely netted all the way around. We're

6 in total agreement with expanding the outdoor

7 access area, but under a porch system. 

8 The only other thing that I wanted

9 to touch on is that we believe that the three

10 pounds per ton for the methionine in the first

11 starter formula is crucial in allowing the

12 chick the proper amino acids to develop at the

13 young stage of life. And that's all I have.

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

15 Katrina.

16 MS. HEINZE: We've heard a lot

17 today about how the FDA Egg Safety Rule is in

18 conflict with what the Livestock Committee has

19 recommended. I guess I'm wondering, there's

20 a lot of free range eggs out there, how --

21 what's your understanding of how the

22 producers of free range eggs are going to meet
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1 the Egg Safety Rule?

2 MR. BEAUREGARD: Well, free range

3 -- or the requirement is any producer that has

4 3,000 or more birds must meet these

5 requirements. So, free range egg producers

6 that have more than 3,000, and I guess that's

7 my question, is that environmental testing

8 going to be enforced on a 700-acre plot. If

9 we're going to free range our hens, we would

10 need 700 acres of land to do so at 100 hens

11 per acre. And how would you plausibly

12 environmentally test that for the FDA

13 regulations? 

14 MS. HEINZE: So, I guess my

15 question is, so you don't know how a current

16 non-organic free range egg producer would be

17 meeting the new Egg Safety Rule.

18 MR. BEAUREGARD: Well, currently,

19 there's no enforcement. It's a new rule that's

20 coming out.

21 MS. HEINZE: Right. But,

22 presumably, they thought about it, or they're
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1 going to lose their business - 

2 MR. BEAUREGARD: Right. But if

3 they have under 3,000 birds, they wouldn't

4 have to.

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

6 No further questions. Thank you. I think

7 let's -- that was Robert. Let's do Hal, and

8 then we'll see how time is for possibly

9 breaking for lunch. 

10 MR. KREHER: Good morning. My

11 name is Hal Kreher. With my four brothers and

12 two cousins, I own a new organic egg farm near

13 Buffalo, New York. We are currently producing

14 eggs for Wegman's, and Tops chain of grocery

15 stores. We have been organic crop farmers for

16 over 10 years. 

17 I support the Methionine Task

18 Force recommendations that were brought up

19 earlier. I apologize if some of my comments

20 are repetitive. I had it all written out. 

21 I was on a conference call

22 listening to the USDA Organic Working Group
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1 Stakeholders meeting two weeks ago, and one of

2 the speakers spoke about access to organic

3 food, and how to grow the sector. This brings

4 up a very good point, and one that I think

5 many people struggle with, and that is whether

6 or not organic products should be available at

7 chain grocery stores. Should people be able

8 to get organic products wherever they shop? 

9 Most people purchase their foods at grocery

10 stores, or should purchasing organic food

11 require a drive out to the country? Is

12 organic food for everyone, or just the elite? 

13 Should we try to spread organic practices

14 across the entire agricultural sector, or

15 should it be for small farms only? 

16 I think there's a main concern

17 with the current situation regarding organic

18 egg production, and that we currently have a

19 supply that is dependent on farmers that have

20 approached production on a commercial scale. 

21 Many of the organic farmers are housing flocks

22 in the 30,000 hen range. If this style of
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1 production is not followed through requiring

2 excessive outdoor area, a large segment of

3 organic food production will be lost. This

4 will decrease the access to organic food. 

5 I personally do not believe that

6 access to organic food should be limited to

7 the very wealthy, or those who live in a rural

8 area. Most people purchase their food at a

9 grocery store, and in order for them to

10 purchase organic eggs, they must be available

11 at a grocery store. In order to supply these

12 large customers, a large number of hens is

13 required. 

14 My farm is also certified by the

15 American Humane Association, and according to 

16 their website, the American Humane Association

17 created the first welfare certification

18 program in the United States to insure the

19 humane treatment of farm animals. The American

20 Humane Certified Program provides third-party

21 independent verification that certified

22 producers care and handling of farm animals
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1 meets the science-based animal welfare

2 standards of American Humane. 

3 It's important to note that the

4 standards developed by American Humane were

5 not developed by farmers, they were developed

6 by animal scientists, and ethicists. The

7 program, and other third-party auditors humane

8 care programs we've already heard about covers

9 every aspect of animal husbandry, as it

10 relates to the care and raising of chickens. 

11 It's much more comprehensive than what has

12 been developed by the Livestock Committee. I

13 do not mean to criticize their efforts, as I

14 realize that they spent many hours to develop

15 the care standards. However, there already

16 exists several of these programs which would

17 fulfill the same requirement, and actually are

18 much more comprehensive to insure that animals

19 are treated humanely. 

20 My proposal is that rather than

21 spending many more hours debating what should

22 and should not be included, that, instead, the
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1 National Organic Program require the following 

2 of the standards off a list of acceptable

3 programs. This list would include American

4 Human Certified Program, Humane Farm Animal

5 Care Program, and some others. 

6 One benefit would be that if the

7 standards change due to further research, it

8 would not require a change to the National

9 Organic Program. Another benefit of using one

10 of these third-party audited systems is that

11 they utilize auditors whose sole focus is the

12 care of the animals. When they inspect a

13 facility, they are already familiar with the

14 standards as they apply to that animal

15 species. Their inspection is quite thorough,

16 and quite possibly more than can be handled by

17 the usual organic inspector, who is already

18 tasked with understanding fields, crops,

19 inputs, et cetera. 

20 We have already talked about space

21 allowance. I kind of wanted to talk a little

22 bit more about the multilevel aviary system,
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1 but I see I'm running out of time. 

2 There's no need for the NOP to

3 develop stricter standards than what is

4 already considered humane by the organizations

5 that are most concerned with humane treatment

6 of animals. 

7 Regarding outdoor access, I

8 realize there are some folks who would prefer

9 to buy their eggs from a small farm that has

10 a flock of barnyard chickens. In order to

11 fulfill this need and to differentiate the

12 eggs produced in this manner, I propose an

13 additional standard for free range or pasture

14 poultry be included.

15 In fact, the humane programs I

16 have already discussed, they have standards

17 for this, and they're on the order of

18 requiring one acre for 400 chickens. It would

19 be very difficult to produce the volume of

20 eggs that can be sold through grocery store

21 chains in this manner, but it would also allow

22 a differentiation for farmers that choose to
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1 have a small flock of chickens. 

2 There's already precedents for

3 having different levels of organic. And, in

4 fact, earlier we heard about differentiation

5 proposed for beef production. 

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

7 I apologize that you drew the short straw

8 here. I'm going to come back to Jay's

9 question. How would you, and for lack of a

10 better term, the classic 30-second elevator

11 speech, explain to a consumer the

12 distinguishing differences between your

13 operation and conventional?

14 MR. KREHER: I also have a

15 conventional operation, so I'm very - 

16 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay.

17 MR. KREHER: -- very able to talk

18 about that. In fact, I have to talk to people

19 about that all the time. The conventional

20 production, the chickens are in cages. 

21 They're fed conventional feed. I don't see

22 anything -- personally, I don't see anything
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1 wrong with that. There are people who prefer

2 organic products. The organic chickens,

3 they're not enclosed in a cage, they can get

4 out, they can run around the floor if they

5 choose to. They can get around in the

6 building. It's quite a bit different, and

7 they're fed organic feed. Now, organic feed

8 is, of course, produced without pesticides and

9 herbicides, which, therefore, those pesticides

10 and herbicides don't need to be produced. So,

11 that's a benefit, I think. 

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe.

13 MR. SMILLIE: You said your farms

14 are near Buffalo?

15 MR. KREHER: Yes.

16 MR. SMILLIE: So, you'll be one of

17 the experts on the snow up to the eaves.

18 MR. KREHER: Yes. And allowing the

19 chickens out, is a big issue for us. 

20 MR. SMILLIE: Well, I wanted to

21 expound on that. So, what do you notice in

22 your production during the winter months in
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1 Buffalo, which are severe, and the summer

2 months when your chickens are outdoors?

3 MR. KREHER: Our farm is quite

4 new. Our first flock of organic hens is only

5 about 30 weeks old at this point. Our

6 veterinarian has advised us that they

7 shouldn't go out when it's cold. They should

8 stay inside when it's cold, and only go out

9 when it's over 60 degrees. The temperature

10 difference, when you open up a lot of these

11 doors in the building, the building is

12 depending on ventilation. The chickens in the

13 house have to have ventilation, have to have

14 air moving through there or they'll suffocate. 

15 So, when you open up all these buildings, all

16 these doors for them, there's 36 doors in the

17 house, and that creates now a ventilation

18 problem. 

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

20 Thank you. I think this will be a good time

21 to break for lunch. We're on schedule. 

22 Arnold Riebli will be up next, Lisa McCrory on
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1 deck, Dave Will in the hole. Be back -- well,

2 time-wise, we'll be back at 1:00.

3 (Whereupon, the proceedings went

4 off the record at 11:46 a.m., and resumed at

5 1:01 p.m.)

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 1:02 p.m.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: We have a

4 quorum and we're going to move on. We've had

5 a number of requests that I'm not being

6 ruthless enough on cutting off questions and

7 we're about one-third of the way through and

8 we should be half. We're fairly way behind.

9 So, is Arnold Riebli here? Okay.

10 Lisa McCrory, on deck. Dave Will.

11 MR. RIEBLI: Good afternoon. 

12 I'll try not to put you all to

13 sleep since you all just had a big meal. 

14 Valerie, welcome to California. 

15 And on behalf of the California taxpayers you

16 may have to turn off the light when you leave

17 California. 

18 My name is Arnold Riebli. I'm a

19 fourth generation farmer and egg producer from

20 Sonoma County, California. 

21 My partners and I and our families

22 have been producing eggs in Sonoma County on
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1 a commercial basis for over 100 years. 

2 Collectively today my partners and

3 I have well over 300 years of practical

4 experience. We were organic before organic

5 was organic. 

6 When our families first started in

7 the egg business, all of our production was

8 entirely of the floor or cage-free type.

9 In the late 1940s into the early

10 1950s we transitioned over to a battery cage

11 type systems because we found these systems to

12 be a better technology break for us. The

13 primary reason for transitioning over was

14 animal health and in essence safety. 

15 Over the years we have seen many

16 different types of cage systems come and go. 

17 About seven years ago we started to experience

18 a demand for organic eggs and as reasonable

19 businessmen we responded by adding organic

20 production to our conventional production --

21 to our conventional product lines. 

22 So, it is, I believe, fair to say
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1 that we have a significant amount of practical

2 experience even to the point of possibly

3 calling us experts in the field of egg

4 production. 

5 Today I'd like to address four

6 items that are up for consideration. 

7 They are number one, space

8 allowance for an egg-laying hens. 

9 Number two, outside access for

10 egg-laying hens and the need to increase the

11 space allowance. 

12 Use of Methionine in egg-laying

13 hen feed rations.

14 And, number four, the condition of

15 vegetation that must be used in egg-laying

16 pastures. 

17 First, space allowance. We

18 understand that there is a consideration being

19 given to increasing the minimum floor space

20 from 1.2 square feet of floor space to 1.8. 

21 We question the reasoning. 

22 When we look at broiler meat
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1 production we notice the space allowance for

2 a broiler is one square foot. The average

3 mature egg-laying hen weights approximately

4 3.5 to 3.8 pounds per hen. The average mature

5 broiler weight 6 to 8 pounds per bird. 

6 When we observed mature egg layers

7 in our current barn, we believe that the hens

8 have more than adequate floor space. Hens are

9 naturally social and they will group up. 

10 To require us to increase this

11 floor space would also mean a one-third

12 reduction in our total bird capacity, thereby

13 requiring us to either build more capacity to

14 an approximate cost of $40 per hen or to

15 reduce our total production and thereby

16 failing to meet the current demand. No matter

17 which course we take, it means a higher cost

18 to the consumer. From a practical

19 perspective, we do not support nor do we

20 believe that this added space requirement is

21 either necessary or wise. 

22 Number two, outside access. We
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1 question the rationale for required outdoor

2 access for young birds during their reading

3 age and the amount of space required

4 throughout their access for adult layers. 

5 First, let me address the young

6 birds. On our pullet-rearing farms we have a

7 significant amount of wild life in the form of

8 wild duck, wild geese, starlings, swallows,

9 pheasants and quail. In the early stages of

10 a young pullet's life she has little or no

11 immunity to any type of viral challenge. She

12 gets these immunities through vaccinations

13 that are administered to her during the first

14 15 weeks of her life and it usually takes two

15 weeks to develop an immunity. 

16 The consideration being given to

17 require outdoor access starting at six to

18 seven weeks of age flies in the face of good

19 animal health practices so say nothing of

20 exposing the young pullet to outside ambient

21 temperatures that cannot be controlled. 

22 It is absolutely imperative the
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1 young birds be kept at 73 degrees Fahrenheit

2 or above. As far as older hens are concerned

3 and I would ask, why do you need the same

4 space outside that I need inside. All of the

5 birds will never be in the same place at the

6 same time. Even when given the opportunity to

7 be outside, some if not most will just simply

8 refuse to do so. 

9 As far as allowing outside access

10 on a daily basis, unless weather did not

11 permit, we would ask, how are we supposed to

12 handle mud? That's a situation that exists in

13 California for about six months out of the

14 year. 

15 Methionine. I, we agree with the

16 recommendation that are being put forth by a

17 methionine subcommittee. Very simply put,

18 that without synthetic methionine we would

19 have to increase the crude protein of a layer

20 diet to a point where the layers' overall well

21 being would be threatened. Anything below a

22 minimum four pound level would be a challenge.
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1 Number four, required vegetation.

2 In the outdoor access areas, well3 -

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Can you

5 wrap that one up? 

6 MR. RIEBLI: I'm sorry?

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Your

8 buzzer went off. Can you wrap up that last

9 point? 

10 MR. RIEBLI: Okay. 

11 Let me say, if we had to put birds

12 out in the summer because of no rain the birds

13 would dilute the yard of vegetation, within a

14 period of time we could not live up to the

15 vegetation standards. 

16 Thank you. 

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions

18 from the Board? 

19 Thank you. Okay. 

20 Lisa McCrory and Dave Will on deck

21 and Robin Allen in the hole. 

22 MS. McCRORY: Good afternoon. 
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1 Hopefully there's copies for

2 everybody. 

3 My name is Lisa McCrory and I work

4 for the Northeast Organic Dairy Producers

5 Alliance, an organic dairy farmer organization

6 with a membership of 836 organic dairy

7 farmers. 

8 NODPA's mission is to enable

9 organic dairy farm families situated across an

10 extensive area to have informed discussion

11 about matters critical to the well-being of

12 the organic dairy industry as a whole. 

13 I'd like to provide some comments

14 on a few areas. First, would be in regards to

15 the livestock committee recommendation

16 regarding clarification of 205.238. We

17 strongly disagree with this recommendation by

18 the livestock committee and we agree with the

19 minority opinion.

20 Economic or management challenges

21 should not be a valid argument to weaken

22 organic standards. Rather than making the use
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1 of substance enzymes 205.603 easy, there

2 should be a cost involved with using them so

3 that organic farms develop different

4 management strategies to eliminate their use. 

5 If the young animal's mother was

6 treated with the 205.603 substance with a

7 withholding time, the young animal would be

8 better off with a surrogate organic mother

9 until the withholding time has expired. That

10 may prove difficult with some farms but

11 organic rules shouldn't be enacted to make

12 things easy. 

13 We support the minority opinion

14 that 205.238 (c)(i) should be amended as

15 follows. Milk from animals undergoing

16 treatment with a substance allowed under

17 205.603 that has a withholding time cannot be

18 sold as organic or fed to organic livestock

19 during the withholding time period. 

20 And my comments are pretty

21 condensed because it's a six-page comment

22 document that you've got. So, I'm going to be
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1 skipping over a few things. 

2 The other area of comment that I

3 wanted to voice was invitation for public

4 input on stocking rate charts. And we

5 strongly believe that organic animal welfare

6 guidance and standards must be sensible and

7 based on reasonable standards that are

8 determined by the realities of farming, good

9 husbandry, grazing, nature animal behavior and

10 natural healing.

11 That said, we recognize the

12 importance of requiring adequate space for

13 animals to exhibit their natural behavior

14 during the non-grazing season or during times

15 of temporary confinement. 

16 NODPA recommends that the

17 livestock committee can reconsider the

18 stocking density rate to calculate rates per

19 weight and not per animal to insure more

20 accurate space allocation. Such practices are

21 common in the EU. And we believe that the

22 USDA certified organic animal welfare
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1 standards should meet or exceed the standard

2 which applies to all animals in the EU.

3 Animals increase in size and

4 weight during their lives and vary by breed. 

5 Calculating stocking densities by animal

6 instead of by weight can most increasingly

7 cramp conditions as the animals grow and

8 cannot be applied to young stock except by

9 using animal equivalents which are misleading.

10 And as for 205.236 origin of

11 livestock we understand that the NOP is in the

12 process of writing an ANPR on 205.236, origin

13 of livestock and NODPA and food farmers

14 recommend that the proposed rule on origin of

15 livestock follow the principles that were

16 outlined in the preamble of the December 21,

17 2000, Federal Register of the NOP final rule. 

18 We do not request any exemptions

19 to this rule. Some have advocated for

20 transition cows and heifers to be sold as

21 organic. Allowing transitioned animals to be

22 sold as certified organic creates a loophole
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1 that will be exploited and transition animals

2 are technically not organic.

3 A transitioned animal is certified

4 to produce organic milk but cannot be sold for

5 organic slaughter and should be allowed to be

6 sold and should not be allowed to be sold as

7 an organic dairy animal. If culled from the

8 herd a transitioned animal should be sold into

9 the conventional market.

10 There will be no decrease in the

11 asset value to the producer as the organic

12 original value of the livestock was as a

13 conventional animal and the producer has

14 recouped any expense incurred in transitioning

15 to organic certification through the premium

16 received from organic milk produced. 

17 A transitioned animal by

18 definition did not have organic management

19 through its life so on and so forth. 

20 And for the sake of time, I think

21 you get my point. There's a lot more detail

22 as to why and we wait with baited breath to
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1 see what the livestock -- the organic

2 livestock standards are going to look like and

3 thank you very much for listening. 

4 Do you have any questions? 

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions

6 from the Board? 

7 Seeing none, thank you very much. 

8 MS. McCRORY: Thank you. 

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Dave Will. 

10 Robin Allen on deck. Dave Carter in the hole.

11 MR. WILL: Good afternoon. 

12 As a fellow Californian, I also

13 would like to extend my welcome to our great

14 state and please leave any spare change you

15 have with Arnie on the way out so he can

16 forward it to the governor. 

17 Just a couple of things. I'm with

18 Chino Valley Ranchers and we are organic egg 

19 producers in Southern California and I'd like

20 to firs to start with thanking the NOSB for

21 all the consideration you're given on our

22 petition and where we are today. 
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1 Also, as a member of the task

2 force, I'd like to personally thank Dave

3 Martinelli for getting a group of egg

4 producers and broiler producers throughout the

5 United States to gather to actually talk about

6 one subject in a coherent fashion. And I

7 appreciate your hard work on that. It wasn't

8 easy, I know. So, thank you. 

9 A couple of minor issues. We do

10 support the pullet concerns that Dave

11 mentioned. You'll also hear from the OTA and

12 I believe UEP put in their writing. 

13 And one thing that we felt we left

14 out was at 27 weeks of age, didn't pull that

15 out of the air for pullets. That's actually

16 the time the bird is fully feathered and has

17 reached its full adult weight, so there was

18 actually some science and understanding behind

19 why we put in 27 weeks considered the same as

20 a broiler. 

21 Fourth, we'd like to talk about

22 what sort of allowances there may be moving
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1 forward to look at substances that currently

2 are not on any list that are natural. Our

3 nutritionist has actually been digging through

4 some very interesting research and has found

5 a couple of things that we'd like to be able

6 to conduct in a small layer-trial full-scale

7 so that we can get the full benefits of it,

8 but we're concerned because this would be

9 something in the realm of a natural non10 synthetic, non-organic substance and whether

11 or not that would lose our certification for

12 that flock or those eggs. 

13 Also, we tested the corn. We did

14 bring in some of the high methionine corn back

15 in January of '09 and sent it out for

16 nutritional testing. We chose to pass because

17 we got absolutely no significant differences

18 between regular corn and high methionine corn

19 at that point in time. And we were never able

20 to ascertain a natural field cost on the

21 product so it made it very difficult for us to

22 move forward.
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1 Switching gears onto animal

2 welfare. 

3 We just want to remind the Board

4 to -- I know everyone looks at the Canadian

5 standards and we've heard that a couple of

6 times and as Greg mentioned, Canada is unique

7 with the fact that they are on an egg quota

8 and it makes it much easier for them to have

9 the resources to develop systems and to have

10 those sort of things in place. Any loss in

11 production or land costs, they're capable of

12 covering with the fact that they do have a

13 quota system for eggs. 

14 Second, on the densities. 

15 We'd like to know if you guys have

16 involved any of the major breeders. 

17 Basically, in the egg industry we're forced to

18 buy our chicks from one of three or four

19 companies. And they all have different

20 standards for the inside space available for

21 the birds and it basically monitors exactly

22 what UEP, Free Farmed and American Humane have
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1 also put out as a public standard of that 1.5

2 foot per bird.

3 Third, on behalf of ourselves in

4 Southern California, and I know there are

5 several other egg producers in the rooms. We

6 would all like to invite you out to an

7 operating ranch. If you want to grab one of

8 us I'm sure we could work something out. We'd

9 love to have you out so that you can see some

10 of the trials and some of the issues that we

11 have to face. 

12 I know Greg in the Midwest has

13 wanted to extend it but he forgot to and we in

14 Southern California would be more than happy

15 to invite any of you out to take a look at our

16 operation.

17 Fourth, we support outside access

18 as a space requirement not as a land quality

19 requirement because that takes into

20 seasonability and the judgment by a certifier

21 and we just feel that leaving that open to

22 interpretation is not correct. We really
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1 would like to see putting as some sort of

2 space. 

3 Also, you know, we have major

4 concerns that are different than the dairy

5 industry because our major contaminants fly. 

6 If pigs flew you might have a different

7 response out of them, concerned about cows and

8 swine crossing paths, but they don't

9 fortunately. Our major predators and concerns

10 do and that's one of the main reasons that we

11 are so worried about birds with the avian

12 influenza. 

13 And then last a little bit of

14 housekeeping. I was asked to remind the group

15 that something was slightly misspoken earlier.

16 A positive environmental test

17 right now for salmonella as the law is written

18 will require four negative tests in a row

19 which are two-week interval and that the eggs

20 should be diverted but it does not require

21 them to be diverted in the rule. So, if you

22 have a positive for those tests then you're
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1 subject to recall. So, good business practice

2 would require or suggest that they are

3 diverted. But it's not the way the law is

4 written. 

5 So, thank you for your time. 

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

7 Questions? 

8 Seeing none, thank you. 

9 Robin Allen, Dave Carter on deck,

10 Beth Unger in the hole.

11 MS. ALLEN: My name is Robin

12 Allen.

13 I'm the Director of Urban

14 Livestock Verification as CCOF. I am

15 responsible for the certification of

16 approximately 1,770 crop operations and a 120

17 livestock operations. 

18 Thank you for this opportunity to

19 make comments. 

20 My comments today going to be

21 directed at recommendations put forth by the

22 Crops Committee and by the Livestock
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1 Committee. So, if I may begin with my

2 comments to the Crops Committee on production

3 standards for terrestrial plants and

4 containers and enclosures. 

5 In short, CCOF feels strongly that

6 this recommendation is misguided and should

7 not be approved by the board. 

8 It appears as though the

9 recommendation is aimed at achieving two

10 different objectives. One to prohibit

11 hydroponics and aeroponics and two the set

12 production standards for green houses. 

13 I want to address these two

14 objectives separately. 

15 Regarding the outright prohibition

16 of aeroponics and hydroponics, CCOF does not

17 believe that this is necessary, though we

18 understand at this point it may be a foregone

19 conclusion due to international trade issues. 

20 Please remember that all certified

21 operations, not just soil-based farmers, are

22 already required to maintain or improve the
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1 natural resources of their operation including

2 soil and water quality.

3 The recommendations/rationale for

4 prohibiting hydro and aeroponics due to lack

5 of soil does not also take into account the

6 fact that the organic community has agreed

7 that other types of crop productions that are

8 not soil-based should be allowed, including

9 wild grown mushrooms and aquacultural such as

10 health. 

11 It does not seem reasonable to

12 exclude hydro and aeroponics based on this

13 rationale and while continuing to allow these

14 other types of productions we are doing. 

15 There are also ramifications for

16 other crop producers which I do not feel are

17 adequately addressed. As written, the

18 recommendation would prohibit the production

19 of organic sprouts. Commonly grown sprouts

20 such as alfalfa and sunflower are both

21 normally terrestrial vascular plants being

22 grown in a soilless environment. 
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1 As the rule specifically discusses

2 sprout production into 205.204(a)(i) and many

3 sprout producers are currently certified, we

4 do not believe that sprout production should

5 be prohibited.

6 In addition to overlooking

7 sprouts, the recommendation would create a

8 very problematic situation for types of

9 transplants and annual seedling production. 

10 Many transplants are grown in a media such a

11 ProLight or Vermiculite which do not meet the

12 recommendations requirement for a compost13 based growing media which can support proper

14 soil biology. 

15 We ask that you carefully consider

16 all of the ramifications of this

17 recommendation and that you do not pass the

18 recommendation that would prohibit sprouts or

19 inhibit the production of transplants or

20 annual seedlings organic production. 

21 Separate from these issues

22 stemming from the section on hydroponics and
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1 aeroponics are the issues stemming from the

2 recommendation standards for greenhouse

3 production. 

4 As we commented at the previous

5 NOSB meeting, CCOF believes that these

6 production standards are overly prescriptive

7 and redundant to other parts of the NOP

8 regulations and are therefore unnecessary.

9 The requirements in the

10 recommendation duplicates requirements already

11 found in other sections of the rule such as

12 the recommendation states that prohibited

13 materials may not be used in a growing media

14 and that commingling and contamination must be

15 prevented and that organic and non-organic

16 crops must be labeled. 

17 We do not believe that there's a

18 widespread problem with commingling or

19 contamination in greenhouses to the extent of

20 wording such lengthy yet narrow requirements. 

21 The problem that this recommendations seems to

22 be trying to solve just doesn't exist. 
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1 Those of you who work with

2 livestock operations affected by the recent

3 pasture rule publication may be sympathetic to

4 the repercussions of subjecting a small

5 segment of the organic community to lengthy

6 and prescriptive requirements.

7 When it comes to organic dairy,

8 there was a consensus there was a problem in

9 the lack of regulations that needed to be

10 addressed. In the cases of greenhouse

11 production, this is not true.

12 Lastly on the subject, we're

13 concerned that the recommendations allowance

14 of supplemental carbon dioxide is by-passing

15 the petition and review and approval

16 process to allow synthetics on the National

17 List. Carbon dioxide from a tank as used in

18 greenhouses is likely from synthetic sources

19 and we cannot support a recommendation that

20 would circumvent the lifting process for

21 synthetic materials.

22 So, for all these reasons, CCOF
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1 cannot support the recommendation and we ask

2 that the committee vote it off the table. 

3 Next, I'd like to comment on the

4 recommendations from the Livestock Committee. 

5 First, we'd like to express our

6 support for the majority opinion regarding a

7 recommendation for clarification of

8 205.238(c)(i), so we do support something

9 sometimes. 

10 Second, regarding the definition

11 of the animal health care products, I do

12 sincerely appreciate that you recognize

13 there's a catch-22 inherent in the regulations

14 that limits the use of preventative and

15 homeopathic health care products. However,

16 the recommendation to add a new definition for

17 animal health care products doesn't solve the

18 problem. 

19 The definition of animal drugs in

20 NOP which references the definition provided

21 by the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act

22 includes preventative and homeopathic products
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1 in the definition of a drug. 

2 Under 205.238(c)(ii), animal drugs

3 may not be used in the absence of an illness. 

4 Adding a definition doesn't cancel out this

5 contradiction.

6 In my written comments I provided

7 three suggestions for technical corrections

8 that could solve this problem, including

9 clarifying the wording of 238(c)(ii) to either

10 state producers must not administer any

11 synthetic medication allowed under 206.053

12 other than vaccinations in the absence of an

13 illness or administer any drug other than

14 vaccinations homeopathic or preventative

15 products in the absence of an illness.

16 That's it. 

17 Questions?

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Someone's

19 paying attention. 

20 Questions? Questions for Robin?

21 Joe.

22 MR. SMILLIE: Could I get a
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1 response from Crops Committee on the sprouts

2 issue. Did you consider that? 

3 Anybody? 

4 MS. ELLOR: Yes. We did and we'll

5 probably go back in the committee with that. 

6 MR. SMILLIE: Okay. 

7 MS. ELLOR: I was -- actually we

8 got a lot of good suggestions. We'll probably

9 go back to the committee before it comes to

10 the floor. 

11 MS. ALLEN: Thank you. 

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

13 Dave Carter on deck. Gay Timmons.

14 MR. CARTER: Thank you. 

15 Members of the Committee, NOP. 

16 I'm Dave Carter, a survivor of this body here

17 today speaking on behalf of a group of organic

18 pet food manufacturers working under the

19 auspices of the Pet Food Institute. 

20 Before I start though I want to

21 welcome the new NOSB members. You're

22 beginning about five years of the most
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1 frustrating and interesting part of your

2 career that you can imagine. And I also want

3 to thank Valerie Frances for your work as

4 Director for the NOSB. You've been a great

5 resource. 

6 Very briefly. The whole area of

7 pet food has been confusing from the very get8 go. From October 2002 when companies moved

9 forward to engage in sort of an occasion to

10 sort of market their products. 

11 But particularly after 2004, when

12 first of all the scope document came out and

13 said that pet food couldn't be certified and

14 then it was later corrected and said, well,

15 yes. It can as long as it complies with

16 205.605, the human food standards rather than

17 603, the livestock feed. 

18 There's been an effort on the part

19 of certifiers and the companies to move

20 forward in compliance with 605 in the midst of

21 a confusing playing field. 

22 Some further confusion and concern
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1 was added earlier this year when the letter

2 came out to some of the certifiers saying that

3 pet foods that are complete and balanced can

4 no longer be certified because they were --

5 because they contained nutrients not listed on

6 104.20 which is mentioned in 205.605. 

7 And let me just stop and say

8 complete and balanced is the be all, end all

9 of pet food. Because pet food is a sole

10 source diet. It's one bowl of food every day

11 that that companion animal gets all of its

12 nutrition from, that food product has to have

13 all of the nutrients that that animal needs

14 and that's established by AFCO to comply with

15 FDA. So, there was a lot of concern and chaos

16 coming out of that. 

17 I am particularly pleased that

18 Miles in his report yesterday gave us a road

19 map to help address a lot of this. 

20 There's four particular areas. 

21 First of all, number one is to say

22 that developing the pet food regulations is a
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1 priority. Again, coming out of all the

2 confusion in 2004, there was the establishment

3 of the Pet Food Task Force delivered its

4 report to this group which was pretty much

5 adopted in toto in November of 2008. Probably

6 one of the best recommendations I've seen in

7 terms of being a ready-made regulation that

8 can move forward. 

9 We're very pleased that NOP has

10 put that on their work plan. 

11 Secondly, is the request from the

12 NOP for this group to re-evaluate the

13 recommendations for nutritional vitamins and

14 minerals as to try and update the

15 recommendation that was made in 1995 by the

16 NOSB at that time. 

17 Third, and this is a critical one. 

18 Was the acknowledgement in the memorandum

19 yesterday that certifiers and operations have

20 been playing by the rules as those rules were

21 defined and interpreted by the program in 2006

22 and 2007. And that's critical because we have
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1 so many folks out there that have been the

2 good players. They have rolled up their

3 sleeves, they've done the heavy lifting to try

4 and develop their formulations in compliance

5 with the National Organic Standards as

6 interpreted by the National Organic Program.

7 Now that we have the program

8 moving forward with a different

9 interpretation, and with the consultation by

10 the FDA, there's a couple of things. 

11 Number one, is we want to make

12 sure that the FDA folks from the Center for

13 Veterinary Medicine are brought into the

14 discussion. But the last point is that the

15 comments in his memorandum, in Miles'

16 memorandum yesterday, that there will be draft

17 guidance on how to comply with the new

18 interpretation. And that there will be a time

19 period including the 60-day comments. I think

20 that that helps give us some breathing space

21 which is critical because we need to have the

22 ability for those companies to move forward
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1 and continue to market those products while we

2 get the ground rules clarified. 

3 So, let me just -- three things in

4 summary. 

5 Number one, is we need to start

6 ASAP on the regulations. 

7 Number two, is you can expect some

8 petitions to be coming in on some of the

9 nutrients that are essential. They are not

10 supplemental. They are essential for

11 companion animals.

12 And, number three, is that we do

13 need to have this transitional period, the

14 breathing space, so that we don't have the

15 business interruption. Because in summary,

16 this isn't just about pet food. I'm in the

17 livestock business. It's about carcass

18 utilization in our business is that if you're

19 trying to get all of your organic premium off

20 of the tenderloins and the ribeyes and the

21 strips, and you can't get an organic premium

22 off of those other ingredients, you simply
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1 cannot compete in the market place. Pet food

2 has been a critical component of allowing

3 these companies that manufacture the human

4 foods to be competitive in the marketplace.

5 Thank you very much. 

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

7 Any questions? 

8 Thanks. 

9 Beth Unger, Gay Timmons, Sheila

10 Linderman in the hole. 

11 MS. UNGER: I'm Beth Unger from

12 CROPP Cooperative. A farmer-owned cooperative

13 that markets organic products under the

14 Organic Valley and the Organic Prairie label. 

15 I am here to speak to you

16 primarily methionine today. I'm going to say

17 it one more time and then we'll go on to other

18 topics. 

19 So, first I think the Livestock

20 Committee put a lot of time and effort into

21 their recommendation for the methionine

22 listing, a continued listing with a step down
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1 thing. But I have a few problems with it. 

2 I think that we need to go back

3 and take a look at process and reconsider this

4 in another way. The TAP review in the handout

5 that everybody received is notes that Barbara

6 Robinson had made in response to the initial

7 TAP review that was done for methionine.

8 This particular TAP review was

9 held up as a biased piece of work and

10 incomplete and it was done so by the NOP and

11 by the poultry industry.

12 Methionine is an essential

13 nutrient. It is used in a very small amount

14 and it is done for good solid animal welfare

15 reasons. This is not a growth promotant. 

16 The natural sources, you heard

17 reports. There was, you know, a little this

18 and that on the high methionine corn. Now

19 we've got it at these levels. We tried it. 

20 It's didn't really work, you know. And

21 there's a commercial availability issue. So,

22 that's no where near. 
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1 I'm very interested to hear the

2 gentleman from the University of Arkansas talk

3 about the microbial trials that they're doing

4 and what they're looking at. And then when

5 you question him about that, it's years down

6 the road. So, I think that we need to go back

7 to the Methionine Task Force decision, take a

8 good solid look at that once again, because as

9 I reviewed the petition that the Livestock

10 Committee put forth, I don't know where that

11 step down came from. It's where is the

12 science behind t? It is -- it is the lack of

13 the science that brought us to where we are

14 right now at this point in time.

15 The TAP review is discounted. We

16 need a new TAP review and in the meantime

17 until you have more information rather than

18 just making a decision that pushes an industry

19 to do something that does not exist at this

20 time, go back, check on the science. And I

21 would strongly encourage that the USDA spend

22 a little time listening to this about no
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1 funding available for this and the other thing

2 on such a critical topic that nobody wants to

3 hear about anymore. 

4 We really need to rethink what's

5 going on here and get some science behind this

6 and do it right. 

7 And that is what I have except the

8 Methionine Task Force petition. Go back to

9 that one, accept it and vote on it and request

10 a new TAP review so that the next time we're

11 back here talking about it we have better

12 information available on that. 

13 I really look forward to seeing

14 you make a good decision on this in the

15 future.

16 Now, haven't seen the one minute

17 sign yet. 

18 Stocking density. A lot of

19 interesting discussion about that. I

20 understand that certifiers are busy collecting

21 a lot of information in terms of the Canadian

22 equivalency agreement. Hopefully all of that
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1 is going to go well. But I want to go back to

2 the issue that this is a very large nation

3 with a very diverse geography, different

4 production systems, different requirements and

5 I just don't see, first of all, that a table,

6 a stocking density table is going to

7 necessarily fit in all areas. 

8 In some cases what was on that

9 table will not be enough space for good animal

10 care. And in other cases maybe you don't need

11 quite as much space. So, it's like we're back

12 to that same old thing that I bring every time

13 and that is. Let this be a relationship with

14 each producers and certifier to insure

15 compliance with the standard.

16 Thank you. 

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

18 Thank you. 

19 Gay Timmons up, Sheila Linderman

20 on deck. Jo Ann Baumgartner in the hole. 

21 MS. TIMMONS: Hi. I'm going to be

22 reading Sheila's also because she's not here. 
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Do you

2 want two fives or one ten? 

3 MS. TIMMONS: Two fives. Actually

4 maybe one ten. I'll keep the one ten. 

5 My name is Gay Timmons. I'm with

6 a distribution company. I've been working

7 with organics since 1991.

8 And I want to thank everybody for

9 having this at this end of the country. I

10 went to school at Davis so it was really fun

11 for me to drive here. I keep telling people

12 I used to count tomato seeds as a way of

13 getting through college right here in

14 Woodland. It was not a good job. But I'm

15 really proud to have people in California. 

16 The 1990 Organic Food Production

17 Act is a promise to consumers that they have

18 access to organically produced foods that

19 contain few if any synthetics. 

20 I want to address the fact that

21 over the past five years or so the NOP has

22 presided over the organic certification of
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1 synthesized non-food ingredients. As long as

2 you guys are talking about synthetics and non3 synthetics, let's get down to the hard core

4 stuff. 

5 These ingredients are synthetic

6 under the definitions in the regulation and

7 OFPA. They have been chemically changed and

8 they have a new chemical identity. They do

9 not exist in nature in isolation.

10 The products that are currently

11 certified included but are not limited to

12 organic or made with organic mono and

13 diglycerides, seven different esters that I

14 found, potassium cocoate and palmate and every

15 other ate you can find out there that has to

16 do with any -- that's any pontification of any

17 oil. Glycerin, fatty acid ethyl esters,

18 sulsinate ethyl palmate, distilled fatty

19 acids, sucrose cocoate and palmate and there

20 are a few other things as well.

21 Based on the processes and the

22 policies used to certify those products, the
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1 following list could also be certified. And

2 I talked about this with my certifier and with

3 two chemists. And basically it's the same

4 processes as was used for the certification of

5 the previously mentioned materials. 

6 Monosodium glutamate, ethyl

7 acetate, glycerol stearate, sodium isostearoyl

8 lactylate, disodium coco-glucoside citrate,

9 sodium cocoyl glutamate, et cetera, et cetera.

10 There's about 2,000 materials that

11 fall into this. I'm totally making that

12 number up. There are a lot of materials that

13 fall into this category because it's

14 processing that has been allowed to be used to

15 certify these materials. So, it's methods

16 plus materials.

17 This is obviously important

18 because we have a potential for a very real

19 mess. Certification of these ingredients and

20 their inclusion in finished products has

21 already occurred under muddy conditions. Need

22 I raise the ghost of Arthur Harvey.
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1 I'm asking the NOP and the NOSB to

2 provide clarity and guidelines or to change

3 the laws or to simply prohibit this practice. 

4 Quite frankly, I don't care which

5 thing you do, but right now I think it's very

6 messy. It's very difficult for people to deal

7 with decision-making if they own a business. 

8 Because I don't know if I should sell

9 certified organic synthetics or not. I don't

10 know if my customer is going to turn around

11 and sue me because it gets de-certified. So,

12 I think we need some sort of assurance of

13 where we're going with this. 

14 It's important to note that when

15 making aroma chemicals, synthesis of a new

16 chemical is the only goal. While we may all

17 agree that there are chemical changes in food

18 processing, they are generally a minute part

19 of the whole. The result of traditional food

20 production processes. In chemical

21 manufacturing there is only one goal to make

22 the unique chemical that does not exist in
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1 nature and isolation.

2 Manufacturers take great risk in

3 investing in new products and consumers

4 deserve to trust the promises made to them by

5 government. For both these parts of the

6 community I ask these questions. 

7 How can you certify as organic a

8 synthesized chemical? 

9 In multiple readings of the law

10 and the regulation, there really does not

11 appear to be an explicit prohibition of

12 certification of synthesized ingredients. 

13 I've been reading the stupid thing for five

14 years looking for that special line that says

15 you can't do this and I don't see it. 

16 At the same time, this seems to

17 bed at odds with the intent of the law and the

18 expectation of consumers as we have heard over

19 and over. 

20 Can the NOP or the NOSB provide

21 guidance on this question? 

22 Number two. If you look at
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1 section 211 of OFPA which is you got to review

2 it if it's synthetic and put it on the

3 National List. What is, again, the guidance

4 from the NOSB and the NOP on the use of

5 organic synthetics that are not on the

6 National List? 

7 Process certification and chemical

8 definitions are two separate realities.

9 Can one use organic glycerin at

10 greater than five percent? Can you use non11 listed certified organic synthetics in

12 processed products under the law as it stands? 

13 Can we use certified organic mono and di

14 glycerides in products other than drum drying?

15 While OFPA -- this is number

16 three. While OFPA is a labeling law based on

17 labeling laws, what is the impact of listing

18 out the names of ingredients that no longer

19 exist due to chemical reactions? Is it

20 misbranding? 

21 If I make sucrose cocoate, used as

22 a emulsifier in food manufacturing, there's no
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1 longer any coconut oil in the ingredient. 

2 It's a new chemical made from a reaction

3 between the sugar and the coconut oil and

4 calcium hydroxide. And it's allowed to

5 purchase and you know that. And it has a new

6 name. 

7 How can you allow companies to

8 list out the pre-reactive inputs to a chemical

9 reaction as though they were actually in the

10 bottle or the package. They're not there. 

11 And I evidently forgot the rest of that

12 sentence. That's what happens when you've

13 added too much.

14 So, my fourth and final question

15 is simple. 

16 What would consumer think when

17 they pick up a product that contains certified

18 organic mono and di glycerides? 

19 I will share that I and other

20 colleagues have asked this question and it is

21 clear that most people in this industry are

22 completely unaware that this is going on. 
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1 They think it's a joke. It's not. The

2 products are out there. 

3 I look forward to further guidance

4 on this issue and I'll make this statement

5 available to anybody who would like it

6 electronically. 

7 Please note that I've attached a 

8 listing from one of the certifiers of some of

9 the materials mentioned and blacked out

10 information about the company. It's not about

11 them. It's about what's been certified.

12 So, that's the five minutes,

13 number one. 

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: That was a

15 lot more than five minutes so you better go on

16 with the second one. 

17 MS. TIMMONS: I read slow. It's

18 me. 

19 Okay. 

20 This is from Sheila Linderman and

21 I'm reading it on her behalf. I know nothing

22 about it. 
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1 Flavors should be removed from the

2 National List by a sense of review for the

3 following reasons all of which are of equal

4 importance. 

5 Number one. There are literally

6 hundreds of flavors that are already certified

7 but are not required for use in products

8 labeled as organic due to flavors being on

9 205.605(a) as opposed to 205.606 which

10 includes organic preference. 

11 When flavors were initially placed

12 on the National List it was assured that

13 compounded flavors could not be certified, yet

14 the crafters of the National List had the

15 foresight to include flavors non-synthetic so

16 that processed organic foods could have

17 increased palatability. 

18 Clearly creative flavor houses

19 have learned to use organic resources to

20 create organic compliant if not fully

21 certified flavors. These efforts must be

22 encouraged by making the use of certified
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1 organic flavors mandatory in finished products

2 labeled as organic and are organic.

3 Three. Compounded flavors are

4 generally composed of plant extracts,

5 concentrates, essential oils, distillates,

6 isolates and aroma chemicals. They are often

7 in carriers such as ethanol and neutral oils. 

8 With the exception of some, not

9 all are aroma chemicals. These components are

10 agricultural and nonsynthetic and therefore

11 certifiable.

12 Furthermore, a tremendous amount

13 of land compared to the individual component

14 quantity is required for production of these

15 types of components, requiring that they all

16 be organic would therefore promote organic

17 agriculture which is our ultimate goal. 

18 Regarding certain distillants and

19 isolates which may fall into the general

20 category of aroma chemicals, these may be

21 difficult to obtain as organic due to the

22 commercial availability of the raw materials
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1 needed to produce these items. One item is

2 alphol which is produced by steam distillation

3 pine needles followed by fractional

4 distillation to purify, then dehydration. All

5 are allowed processes, but the availability of

6 organic pine needs is tenuous at best. 

7 Aroma chemicals of this type could

8 be petitioned onto 205.606. Given the

9 shortened time that items on this list need to

10 be included, it may be presumed that growers

11 could demotivate to increase the availability

12 of organic raw materials. 

13 Other aroma chemicals such as

14 triethyl citrate produced by coming ethanol

15 and citric acid are synthetic but have no

16 negative impact on the environment. Such

17 materials could be petitioned to 205.605(b)

18 with an annotation requiring the use of

19 certified organic ethanol.

20 The addition of these and other

21 materials to the appropriate sections on the

22 National List would increase the flavor's
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1 range thereby increasing the number of

2 certifiable flavors all the while increasing

3 the demand for land that is dedicated to

4 organic agriculture. 

5 It's important to note that flavor

6 -- removal of flavors from 205.605(a) and

7 showing organic preference would result in

8 certifiers requiring a greater understanding

9 of how flavors are produced, not to mention

10 clear definitions of synthetic and

11 nonsynthetic and agricultural and

12 nonagricultural. 

13 One could postulate that removal

14 of flavors from their current position could

15 promote general clarity of definition and

16 knowledge for all parties concerned. 

17 Lastly, I'd like to lend my

18 support in favor of Gay Timmons' position on

19 the certifiability of synthetics, the organic

20 certification of synthetics such as glycerine

21 that is a byproduct of saponification flies in

22 the face of virtually all organic tenants. At
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1 the very best glycerine is made by

2 saponification of organic oils which should

3 not be allowed for use as an ingredient. 

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

5 questions?

6 Thank you. 

7 Jo Ann Baumgartner, Zea and Bonnie

8 Wideman. 

9 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Hello. I'm Jo

10 Ann Baumgartner for Wild Farm Alliance. We

11 promote agriculture that protects and restores

12 wild nature and strongly encourage the

13 implementation of biodiversity natural

14 resource conservation in NOP. 

15 This issue was first brought to

16 the NOSB in 2004 when it was decided later

17 that the NOSB adopt biodiversity inspection

18 questions into the model of organic food plan.

19 Last year the NOSB went further 

20 unanimously in making a recommendation to the

21 NOP to comprehensively address biodiversity by

22 having the NOP consider biodiversity when
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1 reviewing materials that NOP would incorporate

2 biodiversity trainings for certifiers, for

3 inspectors. All organic farmers would add

4 biodiversity into their farm plans. 

5 Certifiers verified biodiversity as being

6 implemented by farmers and NOP had

7 biodiversity conservation to the checklist

8 used by auditors when they are certifying. 

9 So, we wanted to bring to your

10 attention, so far these steps have not been

11 taken and we'd like to suggest to encourage

12 NOP to implement the NOSB recommendation

13 without delay. 

14 I was happy to hear that Miles

15 with NOP yesterday said that biodiversity is

16 on the priority list. Still, let's make sure

17 that this urgent issue will be addressed soon.

18 Everyday rare species decline to

19 the point of extinction. Agriculture's

20 impacts to land and water resources are

21 responsible in large part for the biodiversity

22 crisis. As a natural systems we think
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1 humanity loses because the system services

2 they currently provide for free. The organic

3 community can help to reverse the rate of loss

4 and begin restoring the ecological

5 infrastructure that provide viable soils,

6 clean water and healthy food.

7 So, to begin with, it would be

8 helpful for the NOP to incorporate the

9 material review work done by the NOSB into

10 proper form so that science and tech at AMS

11 can begin checking for positive and negative

12 impacts of biodiversity.

13 It's also important for the NOP to

14 commence biodiversity conservation training

15 which will then give a strong signal to all

16 organic certifiers that they need to verify

17 their farmers are putting conservation into

18 practice. 

19 We applaud the CCOF for continuing

20 to address biodiversity into getting this

21 passed to require their farmers to fill out a

22 broad set of diversity inspection questions
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1 and for those other certifiers who have

2 already done this in the past. But we feel

3 that the playing field still needs to be

4 leveled for all certifiers. 

5 One of the most significant

6 changes that could be made is to revise ARC

7 review compliance checklist, a document that

8 guides audits of NOP accredited certification

9 agents so the questions about natural

10 resources standard 205.200 are in every audit.

11 The recent NOP oversight report

12 confirms that the ARC checklist is inadequate

13 and needs revision. Standard 205.200, which

14 states production practices must maintain or

15 improve the natural resources of the operation

16 putting soil, water, wetlands, woodlands and

17 wildlife, is not in the checklist. With this

18 revision and a comprehensive implementation of

19 biodiversity conservation, the organic

20 community will address intent in the letter of

21 the law. 

22 Organic farms benefit from
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1 ecosystem services provided by biodiversity. 

2 Conserving native habitats on farms yield

3 necessary pollen and nectar for bees and

4 natural enemy insects, valuable hunting roofs

5 and cover for rodent eating predators and

6 critical vegetation that filters sediments and

7 pathogens produces clean water and clean food

8 for all. 

9 I also want to briefly discuss

10 food safety and land conversion. We have been

11 advocating for the co-management of food

12 safety and conservation since the E. coli

13 0157:H7 spinach contamination in 2006. In the

14 next year, we'll be working with -- working on

15 a co-management guide for organic farmers with

16 support from OMRI and some organic wholesalers

17 so that the NOP and organic farmers and

18 wholesalers can successfully influence and

19 educate FDA as they write the safety rules and

20 as they begin showing up on organic farms.

21 I had heard that the NOSB had

22 wanted to address this issue and so I invite
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1 any of you to be involved in this project. 

2 Also, in NOSB's biodiversity

3 recommendation last year, it was mentioned the

4 controversial issue about land conversion and

5 how native forests and grasslands are being

6 converted to organic to avoid the three-year

7 wait for clean land. And we'd like to work

8 with the NOSB and NOP and NCAT on this issue

9 and so you'll be hearing from us about that. 

10 So, that's it. Oh, perfect

11 timing.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

13 Jay. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you for your

15 comments on this. 

16 I just want to get a better feel

17 for what you think the timeline needs to be

18 and whether you're getting the kind of

19 response from NOP in terms of following

20 through on the recommendations that were

21 adopted by the Board and what specific

22 schedule do you think needs to be adopted to
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1 make sure that, you know, that we bring a

2 greater sense of urgency to this issue

3 perhaps. 

4 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Yes. Thank you.

5 Well, the issue of addressing

6 materials in biodiversity could happen right

7 away or the NOP could deal with that right

8 away because it sounds like the NOSB has

9 already got it ready and the NOP just has to

10 do something. And that's it. 

11 As far as the ARC checklist,

12 that's really critical. As soon as that

13 205.200 was added to that checklist then

14 everything changes. It really makes a level

15 playing field for all the certifiers and then

16 that will filter down across the landscape. 

17 So, I'd love to see that happen

18 right away. 

19 Then training certifiers on what

20 all this means is obviously crucial. So, yes. 

21 We're losing species every day across the

22 planet. 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Right. So, may I

2 ask. 

3 Do we know as a Board whether

4 there's adequate follow up to this and

5 incorporated into the audit standards and are

6 we happy with how that's gone? 

7 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. The program

8 has got our recommendation and it's on their

9 list for implementation. I don't know what

10 else -- 

11 MR. McEVOY: Yes. NOSB has a

12 final recommendation on biodiversity. It's

13 going to be included in the guidance that we

14 put out this summer, so it's part of the

15 program handbook. We'll be implementing that

16 particular recommendation. Rule changes as

17 necessary so that will come out in staff

18 guidance.

19 In terms of the review criteria --

20 the ARC review criteria is under revision

21 currently and we'll take this under advisement

22 to see if we need to add more specific
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1 information about biodiversity. 

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Barry. 

3 MR. FLAMM: First of all, I'd like

4 to thank Jo Ann and the Farm Alliance for all

5 the great work that you've done on

6 biodiversity through the years and also on

7 behalf of the Board I appreciate your follow

8 up on the points that we approved a year ago

9 and I think it's good to have this follow up. 

10 I'm also particularly interested

11 in this controversial subject but very

12 important subject of land conversion and I

13 hope we will -- that you will as an

14 organization will pursue that and I hope the

15 Board can play a role in this important

16 factor. 

17 So, thank you again. 

18 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Thank you. 

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

20 Next up is Zea Bonneband, Bonnie

21 Wideman on deck, Garth Kahl in the hole. 

22 Just before Zea starts. 
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1 Every once in awhile with this

2 system we seem to be, at least I am, picking

3 up a rumble. As I'm looking through the crowd

4 I think somehow it's picking up some of your

5 conversations and the way it reverberates

6 through the room so if we have any

7 conversations going on in the audience outside

8 of just a couple of word comments, and it's

9 going to last anymore than that, please take

10 them outside. 

11 Thank you. 

12 MS. BONNEBAND: Thank you very

13 much.

14 I'm Zea Bonneband with California

15 Certified Organic Farmers. Policy Specialist

16 is my title. Materials girl is what I'm more

17 often known by historically. 

18 I've been coming to the meetings

19 from almost the beginning and have been -- was

20 the first TAP contractor so I've been so many

21 of these same discussions many times over. 

22 And I want to touch on a few different
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1 materials issues. 

2 If I don't quick finish my inert

3 portion of my talk feel free to ask me

4 questions.

5 First, I want to say that CCOF

6 does support the relisting of ferric

7 phosphate. We feel that the petition should

8 be evaluated thoroughly before you consider

9 taking any other decision and our growers were

10 in strong support of putting this on the list

11 in the first place.

12 About the classification of

13 materials, I've been working on this since

14 1993 when we started on it and I think we've

15 made great, great progress towards a solution. 

16 I'm concerned about the latest version being

17 too processing centric and I'm going to defer

18 to further comments to Gwendolyn Wyard who is

19 going to give a more explanation about it. 

20 And also the written comments from PCO which

21 I thought were very good that you could look

22 at. 
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1 I would like you to be careful

2 when you make a number of your recommendations

3 about how you handle materials and respect the

4 National List process. For instance, suddenly

5 seeing carbon dioxide in the greenhouse

6 document which is -- was deemed to be

7 synthetic in handling and is not on the

8 National List for crops should not just be

9 inserted into a greenhouse document without it

10 being petitioned. Likewise, argon is in the

11 100 percent listing and argon is not on the

12 National List. 

13 So, let's double check, do our

14 homework. Make sure what we're talking about

15 is in correspondence with the petition and the

16 National List process. 

17 Okay. I have submitted extremely

18 detailed comments about inerts because have

19 been working on this issue since the beginning

20 of materials lists as we know it for organics.

21 I think the -- I really understand

22 your dilemma but I think the current document
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1 as it's proposed is going to create a great

2 deal of hardship for everyone involved,

3 especially you and especially the growers who

4 use the materials that are in question. 

5 I think that what it boils down to

6 for you is an extremely increased workload and

7 you're not going to be able to find the

8 information that you normally use to review

9 materials because most of that is hidden in

10 the EPA somewhere. It's not like these inerts

11 have a lot of public available research about

12 them. 

13 And so what I was most

14 disappointed about in the document was that

15 the EPA was only mentioned as being a

16 cooperator on the part to determine what's

17 nonsynthetic on the EPA list, not in the

18 further endeavors to try and solve the inerts

19 program. And cooperating with the EPA is

20 absolutely essential for you to be able to

21 create a good inerts policy.

22 So, in this new era of, you know,
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1 the NOP having increased budget and

2 cooperation among all Federal agencies and the

3 EPA taking some strides forward, I really urge

4 you to create a more viable solution that

5 involves working with the EPA.

6 For instance, it could be that the

7 -- inerts could go into a program manual

8 instead of on the National List. The EPA

9 could help conduct the reviews of the things

10 that for instance were reclassified to list

11 for after 2004 or that are new or things like

12 that. And then the NOSB instead could focus

13 on developing the public statement about why

14 inerts are even an issue and why they're

15 compatible with organics. 

16 It has been the past practice of

17 the NOSB on occasions like this issue to

18 create task forces. I've been on three NOSB

19 task forces when never serving on the NOSB,

20 including an inerts task force before the 2002

21 law came into effect. And you could create an

22 outside task force with some of us inerts
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1 people, OMRI us and EPA representatives to

2 help you come to a more realistic solution. 

3 Alternatively, you could contract

4 with OMRI or some group like that for inerts. 

5 And our main objective here I think in the

6 whole organic farming community is to create

7 as little disruption to the amount of

8 materials that we use as possible. 

9 Thank you. 

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

11 Any questions? 

12 Jay.

13 MR. FELDMAN: Is it possible to

14 easily come up with a list of inert

15 ingredients among those products that are

16 registered or are allowed for use in organic

17 production?

18 MS. BONNEBAND: Possible. 

19 Probably easy. No. 

20 MR. FELDMAN: Is that something

21 EPA could come up with relatively easily if we

22 have a product names and -- 
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1 MS. BONNEBAND: No. 

2 MR. FELDMAN: For those on the

3 registry.

4 MS. BONNEBAND: No. The closest

5 would be OMRI who has an internal database of

6 the inerts but they don't have it in their

7 purview to have a, you know, a full-time

8 person for a couple of months to pull it

9 together in a format that would be useful, nor

10 do they have the necessary the permission for

11 the companies to provide that information.

12 MR. FELDMAN: Right. So, this

13 wouldn't be produce-specific information. It

14 would be an aggregate list. 

15 MS. BONNEBAND: I understand that.

16 We did that. OMRI when -- as you

17 know, the 2002 law was first published in the

18 middle of 2000 or late 2000 so we had 18

19 months before implementation. And OMRI did

20 that. We created a list that I believe had a

21 135 inerts, not linked to the brand name, gave

22 it to the EPA and said. What do you think? 
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1 You know, we'd like these inerts either

2 reclassified. Two lists -- if they're on list

3 3 or set, you know, acknowledgement. 

4 The EPA took most of the 18 months

5 but they did turn it around. They

6 reclassified 17, I believe. They told us we

7 had -- we, OMRI, had to prohibit about five or

8 six of them and they okayed most of the rest

9 of them. 

10 So, there is precedent for that

11 but it's a big work load, I mean OMRI did it

12 on their own time for the benefit of the

13 organic community and that would be the

14 factor. 

15 MR. FELDMAN: But it can be done. 

16 I mean, what you describe is -- 

17 MS. BONNEBAND: You know, when the

18 first inerts document came out three meetings

19 ago maybe and it asked -- it was a call for

20 tell us what you're approving and what's in

21 it. Almost no certifiers came forward with

22 that information because when it comes right
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1 down to it, OMRI does most of the approval for

2 EPA registered pesticides. There are a few

3 out there in certifiers but relatively few. 

4 Most of them are OMRI. So, OMRI would be the

5 bulk of the inerts that would be in play. 

6 MR. FELDMAN: I really appreciate

7 your comments on the EPA collaboration because

8 I agree that that needs to be more specific in

9 the proposal here. 

10 What I hope we can get help with

11 on this is this balance between angry farmers

12 and angry consumers because the whole process

13 that I think inerts raises is transparency for

14 both the farmer and the individual who is

15 choosing to use one product over another. And

16 the consumer who can have confidence that this

17 Board and USDA is adequately reviewing

18 everything that goes into organic production

19 and processing and handling. 

20 And so what -- the dilemma right

21 now and we're at a crossroads is whether

22 organic wants to stay ahead of the curve
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1 before EPA actually gets to the point of

2 disclosing these products for the, you know,

3 the user community which obviously will be

4 traced back to the consumer community. It's

5 all, you know, there's a relationship there

6 certainly. 

7 So, your help in figuring out

8 where the resources are, you know. What OMRI

9 can contribute, what EPA can contribute. The

10 point is, I think we all want the same end

11 goal here and we've got to figure out how we

12 bring the resources together to get it done. 

13 And I like the comment that was

14 made earlier that it's not always easy to do

15 what's right, you know, in the organic world

16 but that's the challenge we've taken on. 

17 MS. BONNEBAND: Right. 

18 MR. FELDMAN: So, this is a key

19 challenge. It may end up adding synthetics to

20 the National List and that's an unfortunate

21 reality, but we can take comfort in the fact

22 that working together, all together, we see it
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1 in our best interest to get these things

2 reviewed and to have some accountability for

3 meeting the standards of OFPA. And so

4 appreciate it. 

5 MS. BONNEBAND: Don't get me

6 wrong. Organic farmers want to use things

7 that are fully disclosed and are the safest

8 possible choices. 

9 MR. FELDMAN: Right. 

10 MS. BONNEBAND: But they also need

11 things that are going to work for the purpose

12 that they're intended for. 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Right. I think we

14 can work this out. I just hope everybody

15 wants to pitch in and see that it's in all of

16 our interest from the user standpoint, from

17 the consumer standpoint and it will especially

18 if we're ahead of the curve, it will increase,

19 you know, this sense of organic integrity. 

20 Thank you. 

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Katrina.

22 MS. HEINZE: I appreciate your
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1 comments on classification. I'm looking

2 forward to hearing other comments. 

3 You said that the definition that

4 we showed this morning was too processing

5 centric. And I'm wondering, do you mean it's

6 too processing centric or it goes too far and

7 expands the concept to crops and livestock? 

8 I just want to make sure I understand. 

9 MS. BONNEBAND: Well, as I briefly

10 mentioned it to you at lunch, agricultural is

11 not a term used in the construct of crop

12 materials. And so to try and bring the

13 concept of agricultural into the discussion on

14 601, it just doesn't make it clear enough to -

15 - I feel to crop inputs. And we very

16 specifically want to prohibit things like

17 mixing sodium nitrate and potassium chloride

18 to get potassium nitrate.

19 Now, in that instance, they're all

20 minerals, but there are situations where

21 something that's biological might get mixed

22 with a mineral to create what we feel is a
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1 chemical reaction, chemical chance that has

2 not historically been accepted in organics. 

3 MS. HEINZE: So, am I correctly

4 interpreting what you're saying to say that we

5 went too far to include crops?

6 MS. BONNEBAND: Yes. I would like

7 to leave the agricultural out of a crops

8 decision, even if it means a different

9 decision tree and just stick to

10 synthetic/nonsynthetic for crops materials. 

11 We don't want excessive heating for instance

12 which is an accepted processing practice but

13 excessive heating for minerals is not

14 acceptable. And, you know, it's different. 

15 As much as you want to try and

16 make it the same and the same definitions on

17 some situations implied, but there are some

18 differences. 

19 MS. HEINZE: Thank you for

20 clarifying.

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe. 

22 MR. SMILLIE: Can you think of any
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1 examples of the one you cited because mineral

2 to mineral is not what we're talking about? 

3 We're talking about mineral with agricultural.

4 Can you think of anything in your

5 vast experience that -- 

6 MS. BONNEBAND: Of the biological

7 material that -- 

8 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

9 MS. BONNEBAND: Well, of course,

10 you know, the classic one that we are often

11 concerned about is fish products that besides

12 the accepted stabilizers they may have other

13 ingredients added and then there's a question

14 about whether chemical change that boosts the

15 fertilizer content happens. And this is the

16 reason why fish products and aquatic products

17 were put on the National List as synthetics

18 because they have been stabilized in the

19 chemical changes created and we're

20 acknowledging that chemical change made them

21 synthetic.

22 Because of after all, a
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1 nonsynthetic in crops does not have to be

2 petitioned. And so you can't -- if you make

3 a definition that includes a lot of

4 nonsynthetics, then a lot of companies are

5 going to go out there and say. Oh, it's

6 nonsynthetic under the definition and,

7 therefore, we -- you know, it's really hard to

8 challenge that because it's not like you have

9 the petition process to go through and ask

10 those questions. 

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: John. 

12 MR. FOSTER: So, what's excessive

13 heat? You said -- used the term excessive

14 heat that -- 

15 MS. BONNEBAND: Yes. 

16 MR. FOSTER: That baking bread is

17 okay, but excessive heat is -- what is

18 excessive?

19 MS. BONNEBAND: Asked ourselves

20 that question a lot and it basically comes

21 down to heat that's more than you would use in

22 boiling something or baking something. 
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1 Because most minerals that are heated are in

2 the thousands of degree heat range but we

3 have, you know. In the review panel in OMRI,

4 I don't think I'm disclosing anything

5 confidential by saying that we see gradients. 

6 You know, we see things that are heated to 900

7 degrees. Okay. Well, that's hotter than an

8 oven gets, but is it -- you know, it's not the

9 2,000 degrees they use to slate lime or

10 whatever. 

11 So, you know, I used to try -- '93

12 I was involved in trying to push the NOSB to

13 say what temperature. You know, to say no

14 combustion for minerals because we don't want

15 combustion and we don't want excessive

16 temperature, but what should that temperature

17 be and that's hard to determine.

18 MR. FOSTER: I have one more. 

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: One more. 

20 Follow up. Go ahead. 

21 MR. FOSTER: Are fish products

22 themselves synthetic by virtue of having say
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1 phosphoric acid to it? Is the fish product

2 itself synthetic by your thinking. 

3 

4 MS. BONNEBAND: Okay, fish by

5 itself is not synthetic. When you take fish

6 but the products on the market we believe have

7 undergone enough chemical change to the

8 stabilization process that they are synthetic. 

9 That's why they're put on the National List. 

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay. 

11 MR. FELDMAN: On the atmospheric -

12 - sorry. One more question. 

13 On the atmospheric gasses -- inert

14 atmospheric gasses you mentioned argon needing

15 to be on the National List. Well, it needs to

16 be petitioned, whether it would make it or

17 not. I know nothing about argon so -- 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. I mean, the

19 comment earlier from Urvashi was that these

20 ingredients are readily available in the

21 atmosphere, therefore, I guess it qualifies as

22 nonsynthetic, wouldn't need to be listed and
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1 therefore falls within - 

2 MS. BONNEBAND: That's not

3 necessarily a -- 

4 MR. FELDMAN: -- presumably the

5 100 percent. 

6 MS. BONNEBAND: Yes. That's not

7 necessarily true. When we -- as the TAP

8 contractor I studied the gasses that we were

9 petitioned and that they can be from synthetic

10 sources. I don't know about argon, but it can

11 be. 

12 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. But we're

13 talking about inert, right, atmospheric

14 gasses? Because a -- 

15 MS. BONNEBAND: Yes. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: Because CCOF did not

17 support the committee proposals is the way I

18 understand it. 

19 MS. BONNEBAND: Yes. But that's

20 partly from argon but also that has more to do

21 with the 100 percent label and Jody will speak

22 to that later. 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Later. 

2 Thank you. 

3 MR. SMILLIE: Again, it's inert

4 and atmospheric. Okay. 

5 MS. BONNEBAND: Yes. Just like

6 the carbon dioxide that I mentioned briefly.

7 We studied this extensively and

8 there's an old petition in case Harvey went

9 through as far as to declare it a nonsynthetic

10 but it can be either one when you get it in a

11 tank. When you get it from cow farts or

12 whatever, it's natural. 

13 MR. FELDMAN: There's also the --

14 there's also the issue and I don't know if

15 anybody here can help on this. 

16 When you put inert, the word inert

17 before atmospheric gasses, we're talking that

18 five inert, right, essential --

19 PARTICIPANT: Carbon dioxide.

20 MR. FELDMAN: Right. We're not --

21 we're not talking about nitrogen, I guess, and

22 is it the intent that nitrogen be one of those
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1 so-called inerts? So, I don't know --

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Inert has

3 a specific chemical definition of which when

4 you look at the periodic table it's the ones

5 on the--

6 MR. FELDMAN: That's right and it

7 doesn't -- 

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Right. 

9 So, unless they -- if they want to deviate

10 from that, they need to be very specific.

11 Bonnie Wideman, Garth Kahl on

12 deck, Stephen Pederson in the hole. 

13 MS. WIDEMAN: Hello. My name is

14 Bonnie Wideman and I'm the Director of MOSA,

15 Midwest Organic Services Association in

16 Wisconsin. We certify over 1,300 farms and

17 over 600 of them are livestock operations. 

18 So, we've submitted comments on

19 all handling and other crop and livestock

20 issues. But I want to address animal welfare.

21 The background for animal welfare

22 in the November recommendation says that
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1 livestock committee members arrived at the

2 conclusion that current livestock regulation

3 lacks specificity with the potential for

4 creating confusion between producers,

5 inspectors and certifiers. 

6 Further, it was considered that

7 the precise language had created unintended

8 production practices which restricted the

9 welfare of animals to a considerable degree.

10 Our concern here is that in

11 striving for specificity with animal welfare,

12 we will be embarking on a journey similar to

13 the Pasture odyssey. 

14 If you want to take that second

15 sentence and put in Pasture for animal

16 welfare, this is what you get. Further, it

17 was considered that the imprecise language had

18 created unintended production practices which

19 restricted the access to pasture for ruminant

20 animals. 

21 And we do not feel that there is

22 that much now that is of question. And I
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1 think that we have to note that the emperor is

2 wearing no clothes and admit that what we're

3 looking at is poultry issues. Those are the

4 ones where there are unintended production

5 practices. 

6 Unless you think that I just want

7 to nay-say everything that's going on, I have

8 three proposals that I would like to start

9 with. 

10 And the first one in regard to

11 poultry is that it be up to the NOP to bring

12 clarification to organic poultry production. 

13 Because in their putting out of the NOP

14 program handbook, this is a proper time to do

15 this because most certifiers are not allowing

16 porches for poultry. Most of us are requiring

17 indoor and outdoor space that is similar to

18 the ACA poultry working groups proposal. And

19 I'd like to see the NOP take this up. 

20 And then my second proposal is

21 that the livestock committee go back to the

22 livestock rule as it is now with the pasture
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1 changes and create another standard under 238

2 that calls for animal well-being as a primary

3 consideration in on-farm, in transport and

4 slaughter handling of animals.

5 And thirdly, I think that we need

6 to recognize that there are many resources for

7 animal welfare. And similar to the way the

8 pasture trainings, preferred producers and

9 certifiers to pasture guidance materials, I

10 would like to see producers, certifiers and

11 inspectors be referred to my favorite is

12 Humane Foreign Animal Care Guidelines as best

13 practices.

14 And now I think I should explain

15 some of the reasons we don't want to get too

16 specific.

17 One of the things in the November

18 recommendation there were -- I think there

19 were five alteration practices that were

20 prohibited. And the issue I have with that is

21 that most of them are not allowed now,

22 especially tail docking. Some of us have
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1 never heard of mulesing of sheep. In fact,

2 now I've put on my farmer hat because I have

3 35 years experience in sheep handling. 

4 And as far as space requirements,

5 the Canadian requirement calls for 16.1 square

6 feet per head, per sheep plus 2.5 square feet

7 per lamb. 

8 In the standard in the industry

9 for lambing jugs, you know, those are where

10 you put the sheep and the lambs if you are

11 lambing inside is a four foot square pen which

12 is 16 square feet. That is one of the reasons

13 I respect the Humane Animal Care Standards is

14 that that sort of thing is recognized in here.

15 But also as far as specificity, if

16 you're going to go all the way, you're going

17 to have to address everything in this book. 

18 So, thank you. 

19 Any questions?

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

21 questions.

22 Thank you. 
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1 Garth Karl, Stephen Pederson,

2 Carmela Beck.

3 MR. KARL: Hi. My name is Garth

4 Kahl. I'm the Latin American Program

5 Coordinator with Oregon Tilth Certified

6 Organic. 

7 Oregon Tilth is a nonprofit

8 research and educational membership

9 organization and we salute your service to the

10 organic community and the considerable time

11 and effort that each one of you has put in to

12 -- the considerable time and effort each one

13 of you contributes to this task.

14 As you know, we have already

15 submitted brief written comments and at this

16 time I'd like to highlight and summarize some

17 of those comments in brief. 

18 On the issue of production

19 standards for terrestrial plants, Oregon Tilth

20 supports the recommendation of the committee,

21 including the prohibition on hydro and

22 aeroponics. We are also pleased that the
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1 definition is harmonious with that of the

2 Canadian organic regime. 

3 We would also comment that we

4 overlooked the issue of sprouts and we would

5 ask that the committee do take that into

6 consideration as Robin did point out.

7 On stocking density charts. 

8 Oregon Tilth understands that many

9 international regulations and certification

10 bodies use them. But it is also under our

11 understanding that equivalency agreements

12 established with Canada and others recognize

13 current practices for NOP producers to be

14 acceptable and similar. 

15 To verify this, the NOP requested

16 that ACA report stocking densities. It was

17 further understood that these numbers would

18 then be reported to the NOP for analysis and

19 later be used to demonstrate to foreign

20 counterparts the validity of that equivalency.

21 Oregon Tilth request that ACAs

22 and producers be given ample time,
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1 specifically one to two years to record such

2 data and report their findings to NOP before

3 any additional action is taken. In other

4 words, please don't fix it until we know if

5 it's broken or not.

6 Particularly at a time when

7 growers are already having to adapt to the new

8 pasture regulations. This is an unnecessary

9 and an added burden for them to jump through. 

10 We support the relisting of

11 tetracycline as well as materials on 601

12 through 603 that are due to set in the next

13 two years. We also agree that ferric

14 phosphate should be relisted. Producers

15 needs, depend on and deserve a stable

16 regulatory environment. We do not believe

17 that synthetic materials are overused or

18 abused. 

19 For synthetic methionine, we

20 support the recommendation in part because of

21 the spirit of collaboration that went into it

22 and because methionine is such an important
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1 component for a nutritional requirement in

2 birds. 

3 We understand that many members of

4 the committee, industry and the general public

5 feel organic culture production should move

6 away from the use of synthetic methionine. 

7 However, with have proven alternatives already

8 we feel synthetic methionine is necessary. 

9 If the industry does make strides

10 to move away from this material, Oregon Tilth

11 requests an ample time be given for production

12 systems to trial other management practices,

13 feed sources, breeds, etcetera. 

14 On the evaluation and individual

15 listing of inert ingredients, OTCO supports

16 the recommendation in general but urges that

17 the period to submit currently allowed

18 synthetics for review be extended to one year.

19 We can envision many

20 manufacturers, particularly those overseas who

21 would not find out about the issue until after

22 one or more growers had brought it to their
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1 attention. In addition, if the rule is

2 implemented, we would ask the NOP to make a

3 significant wide-reaching effort to inform

4 growers, processors and the industry in

5 general and that effort be similar to what

6 we're seeing with the pasture rule. 

7 OTCO would also like the committee

8 to consider putting forth recommendations and

9 guidance for ACAs and material review bodies

10 that allows them to continue to review

11 materials in the interim. And we would also

12 second Zea's comments regarding the --

13 regarding employing OMRI or the EPA to do that

14 task. 

15 Before closing I'd briefly like to

16 touch on the issue of organic apiculture. 

17 OCTO strongly urges that the NOSB and NOP

18 prioritize the consideration rapid and

19 wholesale adoption of the 2009 Organic

20 Apiculture Guidance document prepared by the

21 ACA. 

22 While NOSB did draft an apiculture
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1 standard in 2001, we all know that the NOP did

2 knock on it. In the intervening years, EU and

3 now Canadian standards have become the de

4 facto world standard, particularly, in the

5 global south where most of the world's organic

6 honey is produced. 

7 The ACA standard was drafted with

8 an eye for commonization with both the EU and

9 COR standard. We feel the ACA standard would

10 not only assure organic integrity, but would

11 also create a workable standard that producers

12 could live and pride with. 

13 We would also stress that a

14 crucial part of the adoption of any organic

15 honey standard must also be the addition to

16 the National List of a number of synthetic

17 materials currently used internationally in

18 organic apiculture. Specifically, time off

19 formic acid and oxalic acid if the latter

20 gains EPA approval for bees. 

21 Again, thank you for your time,

22 efforts and dedication. And I'll take any
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1 questions. 

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

3 Thank you. 

4 MR. KARL: Thank you. 

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: David

6 Pederson, Carmela Beck, Brian McEvoy. 

7 No Stephen Pederson? 

8 Carmela Beck. Brian McEvoy,

9 Edward Gildea. 

10 MS. BECK: Good afternoon. My

11 name is Carmela Beck and I work at the

12 Driscoll Strawberry Associates. I'm the

13 Organic Program Supervisor. 

14 Driscoll's is a distribution or

15 conventional and organic strawberries,

16 blackberries, blueberries and raspberries.

17 We work with upwards of 45 plus

18 organic growers and on behalf of our growers

19 we're here today to request that ferric

20 phosphate continues to be relisted on the

21 National List.

22 Ferric phosphate is used in the
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1 snail bait that's in the life of our growers. 

2 Currently it's the best tool that they have

3 right now for snail bait and we hope to be

4 able to have it in the future in order to

5 manage our buffer zone. 

6 That's my comments. 

7 Thank you. 

8 Any questions?

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

10 Thank you. 

11 Brian McEvoy, Edward Gildea, Tim

12 Stemwedel. Tim Stemwedel. 

13 MR. McEVOY: Brian McEvoy,

14 Driscoll Strawberry Associates. 

15 I want to express appreciation to

16 the National Organic Program staff for their

17 presentation on the corn liquor issue. I

18 think that the issue is well phrased and I

19 think that this body can deal with the

20 determination that's going to come out of

21 that. And so I look forward to the result of

22 your review. 
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1 I do think that liquid fertilizers

2 are consistent with organic production

3 practices and methods and hope that the focus

4 on review of corn liquor is just that. The

5 review of corn liquor and not the review of

6 all liquid fertilizers. 

7 And that's the end of my comment

8 on corn liquor and I wanted to go back to a

9 comment that you made, Joe, earlier about

10 mating pheromone disruption. And I wanted to

11 point out that one of the things about being

12 in California is that you are very close to

13 the light brown apple moth quarantine area. 

14 And the Light brown apple moth

15 quarantine essentially means that any producer

16 that is found with any evidence of light brown

17 apple moth, whether it's a pupa or the actual

18 moth itself or the worm, the lepidoptera, that

19 producer can end up not being able to ship. 

20 And that has happened to Driscoll's producers. 

21 It's happened to other producers in Salinas,

22 Swansonville and it could be happening up in
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1 the Sonoma and northern San Francisco area. 

2 This year AFIS, USDA AFIS has

3 distributed mating pheromone twist ties for

4 the disruption of the light brown apple moth

5 mating process and they've distributed those

6 twist ties to all growers, conventional and

7 organic, in the light brown apple moth

8 quarantine to help growers limit the light

9 brown apple moth mating process and thus

10 reduce hopefully how many pesticides organic

11 and conventional we have to spray to try to

12 control the pest. Because again, it's not

13 about control. It's about eradication. We

14 cannot have one.

15 So, I just wanted to go back and

16 point out, Joe, that mating pheromone

17 disruption we have found those twist ties to

18 this point to be extremely effective. When we

19 have a mating pheromone trap in our field and

20 we have the mating pheromone disruption twist

21 ties around it, the moths cannot find the

22 trap. And it's a huge issue for us here in
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1 California and it's a huge part of our

2 program.

3 So, that's it. Thank you.

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

5 Thank you. 

6 Edward Gildea, Tim Stemwedel and

7 Kyd Brenner. 

8 MR. GILDEA: Good afternoon. 

9 My name is Edward Gildea. Thank

10 you for taking the opportunity to let me speak

11 today.

12 This is my first NOSB meeting and

13 I have to say I'm very impressed with the

14 amount of work and time and energy that you've

15 put into making decisions.

16 I'm the President of a company

17 called Converted Organics, Inc. I'm here

18 today to provide input concerning your

19 deliberations with respect to corn steep

20 liquor. 

21 We submitted written comments on

22 February 10th to Deputy Administrator McEvoy. 
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1 I recommend those comments to you as they

2 contain a great deal more information that I

3 saw in the recent TAC Report on corn steep

4 liquor. 

5 Converted Organics is a publicly

6 held company. We have shares traded on NASDAQ

7 under the symbol COIN. Our main line of

8 business is to manufacture, distribute and

9 sell organic fertilizers that we manufacture

10 by recycling food waste. 

11 The recycled food waste using a

12 proprietary aerobic microbial digestion

13 progress. Our headquarters is in Boston,

14 Massachusetts. We operate two recycling

15 manufacturing facilities, one in Woodbridge,

16 New Jersey, and one in Gonzales, California.

17 We employ about 46 people and in

18 2009 we generated sales of about $2.6 million.

19 Our products are sold in the

20 agricultural market and lawn and turf market

21 and in retail stores such as Home Depot, Whole

22 Foods and WalMart. 
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1 The organic producers both solid

2 and liquid fertilizers all of which are

3 produced by recycling some form of food waste

4 and one of the food waste products that we

5 recycle is corn steep liquor. 

6 We use corn steep liquor in a

7 product -- when we use corn steep liquor in a

8 product we always process it through the

9 microbial digesting process. We don't

10 advocate direct application onto land and we

11 never use prohibitive substances in connection

12 with our manufacturing process. But we do

13 digest corn steep liquor in order to make our

14 product. 

15 Corn steep liquor is a food waste

16 containing an insignificant amount of

17 processing aid, sulfur dioxide or SO2. Our

18 data indicates that a typical amount of SO2 in

19 raw corn steep liquor at our facility is about

20 one-tenth of one percent and that the

21 percentage drops to seven one hundredths of a

22 percent in our final liquid fertilizer
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1 product. 

2 Food waste from conventional

3 tomato processing facilities that use

4 potassium hydroxide to remove skins is

5 permitted to be used in a composting facility. 

6 Potassium hydroxide is a processing aid. It's

7 not allowed in organic processing for this

8 use. It has residues in significant amount of

9 the waste and the food waste from these

10 facilities may be used as feed stock from

11 compost for organic production. 

12 The question is. How does corn

13 steep liquor differ?

14 If the corn set million process is

15 determined to be synthetic due to the use of

16 SO2, then all the products resulting from this

17 process including corn starch and corn gluten

18 which currently are allowed in organic

19 agricultural nonsynthetic materials would have

20 to be considered a synthetic because these

21 products with the same origin and go through

22 the same process as does corn steep liquor.
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1 Although I don't believe that the

2 corn set milling process creates synthetic

3 materials, I would expect that the NOSB and

4 the NOP would apply the same decision

5 uniformly to corn steep liquor, corn gluten

6 and corn starch.

7 Compost, whether it's made on a

8 farm or purchased for use has been used by

9 organic farmers as one of their tools to go to

10 build soil kilt and provide nutrients for

11 their crops. Reducing the availability of

12 good quality compost and fertilizer for the

13 available feed stock for creating those

14 products would increase the challenges of

15 organic farming. 

16 Corn steep liquor should continue

17 to use this feed stock for compost and

18 fertilizer that is used in organic production

19 without the necessity of petitioning for its

20 use as a synthetic material. 

21 Thank you. I made it as quickly

22 as I could since you must be tired. 
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

2 Joe? 

3 MR. SMILLIE: You've had a lot of

4 experience. What did you -- what particular

5 issues with the TAC that we were provided with

6 from the program would you take issue with? 

7 Was it simply too simplistic or was it

8 inaccurate?

9 MR. GILDEA: Well, it --

10 carefully, there are so many people listening.

11 MR. SMILLIE: Officially recorded

12 I might add, you know. What you have said

13 here will be held against you. 

14 MR. GILDEA: My official -- my

15 official position would be that it looked very

16 much like it had been copied from a previous

17 document issued by another agency. It didn't

18 look as though it contained any independent

19 thoughts on the evaluation of the subject

20 raised in the document. 

21 I think if you look at the

22 submission we gave you, you'll find that
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1 there's a lot of data and a lot of information

2 that was not included in that TAC report. 

3 Yes, ma'am?

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Tina.

5 MS. ELLOR: Yes. The crops

6 committee came to pretty much the same

7 conclusion and we talked about that yesterday

8 with the program. So, we hope to address some

9 of those extra questions as we, you know,

10 continue to deliberate on the corn steep

11 liquor question. 

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Further

13 questions? 

14 MR. GILDEA: Thank you.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

16 Next up Tim Stemwedel, Kyd

17 Brenner, Lindsay Fernandez-Salvador. 

18 MR. STEMWEDEL: I'm Tim Stemwedel. 

19 I'm the Founder, Owner and President of

20 California Organic Fertilizers. 

21 I've been in business

22 manufacturing organic fertilizer products for
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1 20 years. 

2 Several topics I wanted to address

3 today which are waste streams being used as

4 crop inputs. Sunset review of liquid fish and

5 corn steep liquor. 

6 Regarding waste streams, my

7 research has shown that these materials are

8 not made with the intent to be used in organic

9 crop production. And as such, there's no

10 concerns made relative to the organic

11 materials in the production process.

12 Included in this category is corn

13 steep liquor, concentrator separator by14 product or what's known as CSB, and lysine by15 products. 

16 A number of these have been banned

17 and others are under review. I believe that

18 it's bad for organics to be dependent upon

19 waste streams. If let's say the product that

20 they're making that -- the commercial product

21 that they're making is no longer needed all of

22 a sudden we no longer have a fertilizer
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1 product. 

2 Regarding the sunset review of

3 liquid fish, first, the fish with phosphoric

4 and sulfuric acid is a formulated product and

5 doesn't really meet the regulatory

6 requirements for inclusion on the National

7 List. It's two different ingredients put

8 together. Each ingredient should be

9 considered separately by petition. 

10 The use of phosphoric and sulfuric

11 acid are not necessarily -- are really not

12 necessary as there are alternatives available

13 such as citric and acidic acid. 

14 And I agree with Zea that the

15 strong acids that are used in these create a

16 chemical reaction and they actually change the

17 material. They degrade the acid hydrolysis of

18 the proteins.

19 Finally, I've got some comments on

20 corn steep liquor. I've already posted

21 comments at the regulations.gov site. These

22 are in addition to that. 
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1 CSL is an industrial waste. It's

2 a by-product of the manufacturing of corn

3 starch based cardboard glue. And there's

4 thousands of tons of this stuff made and

5 believe me it's not all going into little

6 boxes in people's pantries. It's a good

7 product. 

8 It's an industrial material, not

9 an agricultural product. 

10 There are also alternatives,

11 alternate fertilizers available that could be

12 used in place. So, it's not really necessary

13 as a fertilizer. 

14 The addition of SO2 should make

15 CSL formulate product as well because it's two

16 ingredients together. So, each ingredient

17 should be considered separately. You really

18 should be looking at the use of SO2 by itself

19 in the production of corn starch.

20 Additionally, we've looked

21 extensively at the manufacturing process but

22 really not at the shipping and handling of
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1 this materials. The CSL is very biologically

2 active and it ferments very easily. This is

3 such the reason for adding the SO2 to begin

4 with.

5 CSL needs to be stabilized in

6 order to ship or store it for any length of

7 time. Due to the fermentation issues, it's

8 not stored for more than a few days at the

9 production site. My research has discovered

10 that CSL is usually stabilized to stop

11 fermentation using sodium bisulfide.

12 So, in conclusion on the CSL, I

13 would like to support OMRI's position that it

14 is a synthetic material.

15 I'm also against the use of using

16 the food process rules for crop inputs. And

17 I ask the NOSB to be cautious in making

18 recommendations that reduce the value of the

19 organic brand by allowing organics to converge

20 with conventional agriculture. 

21 And I would as well also ask that

22 the EPA list three and four ingredients be
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1 considered separately, each by petition. 

2 Thank you for allowing me to

3 speak. 

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Question?

5 Jeff.

6 MR. MOYER: To follow up on your

7 last comment. You just said that you support

8 the inerts being listed -- you're talking

9 about each ingredient individually by petition

10 to this board? Is that what you're saying?

11 MR. STEMWEDEL: Yes. 

12 MR. MOYER: Thank you. 

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Further

14 questions? 

15 Thank you.

16 Kyd Brenner, Lindsay Fernandez17 Salvador.

18 Mr. Brenner in. Lindsay

19 Fernandez-Salvador, Bob Durst on deck. 

20 Valerie, is Mr. Durst listed

21 twice?

22 MS. FRANCES: Representing two
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1 different organizations. Yes. 

2 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Good

3 afternoon. My name is Lindsay Fernandez4 Salvador. I'm the Technical Director at OMRI.

5 OMRI is a nonprofit organization. 

6 Our mission is to provide professional,

7 independent and transparent review of

8 materials and processes to determine their

9 suitability to producing processing and

10 handling organic food and fiber. 

11 I want to start today by

12 commenting on corn steep liquor. We would

13 like to discuss a little bit about how we

14 arrived at the synthetic determination or

15 classification of corn steep liquor. 

16 When OMRI comes across a material

17 that's particularly complex such as corn steep

18 liquor, we have a long review process that we

19 take it through what we call a review panel. 

20 And when our review panel can't make that

21 determination, we take it to an advisory

22 council.
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1 Our advisory council is made of a 

2 wide variety of experts in their field, not

3 unlike the NOSB. And we prepare materials for

4 them that they can review and make a

5 determination or both. And the majority vote

6 is how we go. 

7 So, we have this process so that

8 no one person had the complete power over the

9 decision of a synthetic or nonsynthetic

10 status. 

11 The first time they voted they

12 were provided with scientific literature, a

13 copy of the NOSB guidance document that you --

14 that you recommended in 2006 with information

15 from the manufacturer wanting to use this

16 material. They voted 8 to 2 that it was

17 synthetic. 

18 Then we received more information

19 substantiating the idea that it was

20 nonsynthetic primarily that lactic acid was

21 the driver of the protein cleavage. And so we

22 provided the ACA again with this information
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1 with the same information that the -- that the

2 manufacturer used to support the determination

3 of nonsynthetic or to support his argument. 

4 And, again, they voted 7 to 3 that it was

5 synthetic. 

6 So, I do believe that OMRI

7 fulfilled our mission by being professional,

8 independent and transparent in this review of

9 this material.

10 But given that we of course

11 appreciate the NOP's guidance in lieu of an

12 official decision from the NOSB and we are

13 assured that the NOSB will take into account

14 the information that they've been provided on

15 corn steep liquor and make a fair and informed

16 decision on that. 

17 I would also take a moment to

18 mention the minorities' opinion as well

19 because there was a good stream of, while this

20 is synthetic, it's a very useful product. And

21 they would like to see it listed on the

22 National List. And so I quote. 
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1 I think there are limitations on

2 how far the definition of synthetics should be

3 extended. When the law was written the

4 primary materials that were being rejected by

5 organic growers was synthetic fertilizers and

6 pest controls that were causing large-scale

7 and long-term environmental damage. And

8 synthetic materials such as artificial

9 coloring that was adulterating our food

10 supplies to the point of causing diseases in

11 healthy people. 

12 And so that was the

13 characterization of many comments, both in the

14 synthetic vote and the nonsynthetic. 

15 So, with that I'd like to move on

16 with the classification of materials. 

17 We'd like to comment on question

18 number 2 of the guidance material. 

19 While we support this question of

20 removing a material from classification when

21 certified organic in processed foods, it

22 causes a problem for OMRI when we have to look
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1 at an ingredient that might be -- could be

2 certified organic but isn't certified organic

3 because it's used in crop or livestock inputs. 

4 So, if that was the intent of that question to

5 remove those types of materials, we'd like you

6 to rethink that if that really was the intent

7 and if so how the industry might deal with

8 that. 

9 We also appreciate the burning of

10 the midnight oil with the extra vote last

11 night and we'd like to take another moment to

12 make comments on that at a later date. 

13 And we strongly support the

14 continuing work on significant and

15 insignificant levels. This is a vital piece

16 of information. We prohibit on a regular

17 basis whether or not a synthetic is left over

18 in the formulation. And anytime that we can

19 point to a regulation, it helps our case at

20 OMRI, our staff but it also helps the

21 manufacturers that work towards a threshold

22 when making new products.
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1 Thank you. 

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

3 Katrina. 

4 MS. HEINZE: Thank you for your

5 comments on classification. 

6 I would encourage you as the joint

7 committee continues to work on that guidance

8 document if you could send us any facts you

9 have on significant and insignificant that

10 might inform our deliberations. We would love

11 to get those. You can send them to Valerie

12 and she'll forward them on to us. 

13 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: I will do

14 my best. 

15 MS. HEINZE: Thank you very much.

16 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay. 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you for your

18 comments. 

19 you also commented on ferric

20 phosphate, right? 

21 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Correct. 

22 In my written comments. Yes. 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: In your written

2 comments. And you say OMRI is not taking a

3 position on -- on -- on the vote or the

4 pending vote on the sunset.

5 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: On the --

6 we're not taking a position on the petition to

7 delist. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Right. 

9 Now, is that unusual? Is that

10 something you don't do? If you were requested

11 to take a position, would you or it doesn't

12 work that way?

13 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: No. We

14 tend not to take a position on the suitability

15 or the allowance of materials.

16 MR. FELDMAN: Right. But in terms

17 of compliance with the standards of the final

18 rules, you would -- you would make a ruling on

19 that? No?

20 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Currently

21 ferric phosphates as formulated in a pesticide

22 -- in a pesticide formulation is compliant wit
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1 the regulations both EPA and NOP.

2 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Does OMRI

3 look at whether the essentiality of a product

4 and whether there have been alternatives

5 developed for a particular target pest?

6 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: No. 

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Question? 

8 Joe. 

9 MR. SMILLIE: Thank you. 

10 This is not just for you but I

11 like OMRI's position on the industry as to

12 this question. From reading the written

13 submissions on corn steep liquor, I've been

14 led to believe in a couple of cases that there

15 are two methodologies for corn steep liquor. 

16 One called the old traditional method and the

17 other the new method. And that these

18 methodologies should be looked at separately. 

19 When you -- when your panels

20 looked at it, is that the way -- did you look

21 at both methods?

22 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: When we
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1 look at the status of a material, we look at

2 it primarily in the context of the actual

3 ingredient that is wanting to be used in an

4 OMRI listed product. So, in this case, it's

5 the industrial corn steeping method, counter6 current method. 

7 I can't speak for the -- the old

8 manufacturing process. But we would look and

9 especially if there were other mechanisms

10 through which something could be manufactured. 

11 For example, maltodextrin can be made both

12 synthetically and nonsynthetically. So, if

13 corn step liquor came through again that was

14 made perhaps through enzyme hidrosis rather

15 than sulphurous acid, we might consider that

16 a nonsynthetic material.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any more

18 questions? 

19 Thank you.

20 Okay. Bob Durst is next. 

21 Before you get started through,

22 just for going back and checking where we
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1 stand on our list. 

2 Is there a speaker for the Corn

3 Refiners of America here? 

4 Okay. 

5 And is Stephen Pederson here? 

6 Okay. Then we have -- this is --

7 do you want one ten minute or do you want two

8 fives?

9 MR. DURST: Give it one ten but

10 allow me a five because it's sort of separate

11 stuff.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

13 Then we have Dennis Macura and

14 Paolo Mario Bonetti in the hole. 

15 MR. DURST: Thanks. 

16 First, Bob Durst from Simple

17 Organic Solutions. I'm a consultant and on

18 the corn steep liquor issue I'm addressing

19 that for some of my clients.

20 Something that wasn't just

21 mentioned from OMRI is that they've made this

22 ruling about it being synthetic now, but for
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1 many, many years, it was actually an approved

2 product and listed with them and when the

3 first approvals of those products were made,

4 they were aware of the sulfur dioxide content

5 and the process that was used in it and it was

6 readdressed later on most recently here. And

7 when they readdressed that they decided to

8 rule it as synthetic. So, it has been used

9 widely for a long time and approved by OMRI. 

10 So that's its historical status on it. 

11 To address a little bit the

12 chemistry of the process, and Lisa yesterday

13 introduced that and I'll reiterate a little

14 bit. That SO2 is used primarily to prevent

15 wild microbial action of the material while

16 it's going through initial steeping. And that

17 if the pH is involved in these conditions of

18 extraction, there's really minimal breakdown

19 of the chemical bonds in there and that most

20 of the action and chemical breakdown is due to

21 the lack of acid fermentation that's going on.

22 And if one looks at the entire
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1 process there it might almost be a mute point

2 because these products once you start with

3 CSL, in order to make a liquid fertilizer it's

4 going on to additional fermentations which are

5 biological processes that are completely

6 breaking down all the chemical nature of the

7 things that are there regardless of anything

8 that might have happened with SO2 up front. 

9 Those proteins are being broken down by

10 biological fermentation products subsequent in

11 the operation there. 

12 Just to expand on that a little

13 bit, examples that Miles gave yesterday in his

14 presentation regarding things like bifenthrin,

15 residues in compost, where you've got a real

16 nasty chemical in there on the input stream

17 but through the composting process you got a

18 breakdown of that and subsequently you've got

19 a material that's perfectly acceptable for use

20 as an input in organic agriculture. 

21 And the case here is very similar. 

22 We see a cell. Edward made a point just a
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1 moment ago with the sodium hydroxide and

2 tomato waste product being used in the same

3 way that you've got a complete breakdown of

4 this material that is happening through a

5 biological process at the end of this whole

6 liquid composting process that's real

7 different from using that as an ingredient. 

8 It's -- it's material that's in there. It's

9 being used. It's being broken down by

10 exceptional processes that it should be

11 allowed as an acceptable ingredient then for

12 agriculture.

13 So, actually that's just about all

14 I have on the CSL. 

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

16 questions on the CSL? 

17 Okay. Go ahead. 

18 I think after your next comment we

19 will take our n ext break. We are a few

20 minutes -- should have a few minutes. 

21 Probably should have done it before you, but

22 go ahead. 
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1 MR. DURST: There's only one or

2 two more CSL things. You might want to finish

3 that up before you move on to something. 

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Oh, okay. 

5 MR. DURST: Just as a suggestion.

6 So, my second area that I'm going

7 to address here and I'm representing Whitmeyer

8 MicroGen which is a pesticide manufacturer. 

9 Has to do with inerts in pesticide product.

10 And the August 2004 list is the

11 last combination list that was published by

12 EPA. And unfortunately what happened is they,

13 you know, they dropped the ball as you folks

14 all know in 2006, but they had been continuing

15 to evaluate materials between 2004 and 2006

16 when they dropped it. 

17 And the recent guidance document

18 that came out that said we're going to -- that

19 you're going to use the 2004 list, but having

20 acknowledged that some reviews continued after

21 that point, and stating that there were half

22 a dozen -- actually eight materials that were
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1 removed from list 4 that the guidance document

2 says are no longer going to be acceptable. 

3 There's no acknowledgment that

4 there were quite a number of materials that

5 were reviewed and added to list 4 during that

6 two-year period and because the 2004 list

7 doesn't have those on them, nobody is allowed

8 to use those. And it's really a travesty that

9 those things -- people spent a lot of money to

10 get those things listed in that interim period

11 and now they've fallen through the cracks. 

12 And I realize that the whole issue with EPA

13 inerts is a big kerfuffle these days because

14 it's been dropping the fall, but there should

15 be some guidance document that says anything

16 that was listed at any point in time with the

17 EPA list, the additions of these handful of

18 materials and the removal of these materials

19 between 2004 and 2006 when they dropped the

20 ball, ought to be allowed as inert pesticides.

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

22 questions?
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1 Okay. So, you think we should do

2 one more before we break? There's only one

3 listed. 

4 There is only one listed. 

5 Dennis Macura. 

6 MR. MACURA: Thank you, Mr.

7 Chairman. Members of the Board, ladies and

8 gentlemen. 

9 Thank you for the opportunity to

10 address this distinguished Board. 

11 My name is Dragon Macura. I go as

12 Dennis as well. I represent a company called

13 AgroThrive, Incorporated. AgroThrive, I

14 believe was the company at the focus of

15 attention with OMRI. 

16 When we first submitted our

17 application for listing of our products with

18 OMRI, we have submitted our application to

19 Washington State and ASCO at the same time. 

20 They asked the same questions and approved our

21 products within less than a month.

22 OMRI took about two years, two and
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1 a half. At the end of deciding that they were

2 going to list it as -- not list it in their --

3 their decision was that it was going to be

4 synthetic. And that was made by their

5 advisory council. 

6 I asked for the information that

7 was submitted to the advisory council and I

8 received all the papers. There were seven in

9 all. And none of them were peer reviewed

10 published research papers. They were all

11 discussion papers about the topic. 

12 When I then went to do my

13 literature search I found one field reviewed

14 research paper by Disincogin 1996 which

15 actually looked at this issue. 

16 I believe I have submitted a copy

17 of it with my written submission. If I have

18 not, please let me know and I'll submit it to

19 whoever has not received it. 

20 I've taken some of the details of

21 that research and I've also addressed some of

22 the comments that OMRI had in their recent
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1 newsletter publication talking about the

2 issue. 

3 The two points there that I would

4 wish to make. One of them is to address the

5 issue of 7 to 2 -- 7 to 3 or 7 to 2 voting of

6 the OMRI advisory council. I believe that

7 they -- the council members tried in earnest

8 to make the correct decision. However, they

9 did not have all the information to make a

10 decision on. 

11 The information being that the

12 supposed reaction that is -- that was supposed

13 to be happening is the reaction between sulfur

14 dioxide that is used as a processing aid in up

15 stream and steeping process creates a reaction

16 with bisulfide bonds in protein and therefore

17 renders a material synthetic. 

18 While my application was for the

19 listing of AgroThrive fermented compost -- a

20 liquid composted product. It was not for

21 listing of -- of an ingredient in steep

22 liquor. 
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1 And as a result, the process

2 that's -- that follows the formulation of our

3 materials of the composting process was not

4 even considered in the deliberation. The

5 reaction itself is supposed to be going on at

6 pH conditions that were not present in the

7 counter current production system. 

8 If you look at my submission I've

9 gone to the manufacturer and I've taken

10 detailed notes and diagrams on -- on how the

11 material is actually produced, not what the

12 literature says about it because there's a

13 fair amount of discussion literature of

14 different types of processes. 

15 If you take a look at those -- the

16 submission you will see that the fresh corn in

17 which the supposed reaction is possible to

18 take place is added to the oldest steep

19 liquor. In other words to a pH at which this

20 reaction is less than one percent chance of

21 happening.

22 The highest concentration of SO2
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1 is added to the oldest corn one and a half

2 hours before it's taken out of the process and

3 ground. So, chance of that happening or that

4 reaction actually taking place is very minimal

5 to none. 

6 In addition, while this is

7 happening there is a very, very vigorous

8 lactic acid fermentation taking place. Lactic

9 acid material are known to be pertilitic and

10 they are -- they are very active at the -- at

11 the onset when -- when the corn is added to

12 the material. 

13 And, finally, the -- the corn

14 steep liquor that we use in our product is a

15 formulated material. I mean, it's part of the

16 formulation. So, I was very -- very glad to

17 see that NOP did an explanation on composting

18 with bifenthrin and I think that it should be

19 looked at in the same context as composting as

20 a composting process.

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

22 Questions? 
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1 Okay. Folks, we are -- we've been

2 at this -- thank you, sir. 

3 MR. MACURA: Thank you. 

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: We've been

5 at this since 8:00 this morning. It's 3:00. 

6 We are hoping to be done by 5:00 and we're not

7 half done.

8 So, we're going to take a break. 

9 When that clock hits 3:10 we're going to be --

10 the next speaker is coming up. We'll start

11 with the wine group and we may need a glass. 

12 Paul Dolan, Paola Bonetti and

13 Brian Fitzpatrick. 

14 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

15 matter went off the record at 2:59 p.m. and

16 resumed at 3:11 p.m.) 

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Could we

18 please bring the meeting to order? Yes, we

19 can. We have a quorum. We have eight. We're

20 rockin' and rollin'.

21 MR. DOLAN: My name is Paul Dolan. 

22 I'm a farmer, biodynamic organic farmer and
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1 wine grower, wine maker. I've been in the

2 business for a number of years working for a

3 small family business. I worked for a large

4 corporation actually and I'm involved in small

5 family business now. I'm excited that my sons

6 have decided to become fifth generation

7 farmers as well.

8 My awakening in this business came

9 about 25 years ago. As a young wine maker I

10 can remember being in vineyards tasting fruit

11 trying to determine whether they were ready to

12 harvest or not, tasting sauvignon blanc.

13 Tasting the berry off the vine had all of the

14 fruit and melon and fig characteristics I

15 would expect for Sauvignon blanc. 

16 And then just walking 10 feet over

17 to another row, tasting another berry that was

18 flat and insipid. I didn't get that and I

19 didn't understand it. I always had great

20 hopes for that wine but each year I would end

21 up being disappointed. That wine would go

22 into our everyday table wine. 
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1 Three years after we converted it

2 to organic those same grapes started going

3 into our top level Sauvignon blanc. Clearly

4 for me there was a difference. I could make

5 better wine growing grapes organically. 

6 I also realized on some level I

7 was probably poisoning the earth by using the

8 chemicals that I was using and killing the

9 microbial life from the soil. For me

10 everything shifted and I started to become

11 very passionate about organic. So passionate

12 that my personal mantra is create a shift in

13 sustainability on the planet through business

14 leadership. 

15 I think organics with its

16 orientation to systems thinking actually

17 starts to give us some access there. I've been

18 involved in converting many, many acres over

19 to organic, probably over 2,500 acres myself,

20 and involved in leading the rest of the

21 industry as well.

22 Now, 15 years ago I had to get
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1 involved in order to make that happen because

2 the NOP was going to go down the path of

3 interpreting that wine could not be made --

4 organic wines or the word organic couldn't be

5 put on the label that used sulfites. We were

6 able to create special category, "made with

7 organically grown gapes." 

8 Since then, or the reason I went

9 back to do that is because I knew farmers

10 would not grow organically if there wasn't a

11 market. I knew wine makers would not easily

12 make wines without sulfites because sulfites

13 have been in the production of wine for

14 thousands -- hundreds of years I should say.

15 Now, today there are 55 wineries

16 that are using sulfites, 55 brands that are

17 using sulfites in their wine production with

18 the terminology "made with organically grown

19 grapes." There are 15 with no sulfites added.

20 Things have changed in the last 15

21 years now so that we are now the only wine22 producing country in the world that does not
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1 allow sulfites to be used for organic wines. 

2 Canada just allowed that just recently.

3 We also are a country that has

4 five categories for the terminology organic if

5 you can imagine that. So I have a simple

6 request. My request is that we go to one

7 category, organic wine, with two

8 subcategories. We allow for products with no

9 sulfites added but really organic wines really

10 are just wine, wine that we use sulfites.

11 The simple benefits for that when

12 we get this all cleared up on a global scale,

13 I think that's really important for the growth

14 and development of the business but also for

15 the growth and development of organic. It

16 also clears up with the trade. We will always

17 have the confusion. 

18 We created the confusion, if you

19 will, the organic industry, with the sulfite

20 issue because it never was an issue until we

21 started to go down the organic path. We'll

22 still have to deal with that but we can reduce
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1 the confusion for consumers by simply creating

2 products that are 100 percent organic. 

3 Now, I would also suggest that we

4 eliminate the category of 70 percent. We

5 don't need it in our industry. There is no

6 benefit. There is nobody that's using it. 

7 It's just a temptation to create more

8 confusion for us going forward. 

9 It would be wonderful if we could

10 create an interpretation that doesn't allow

11 for the 70/30 ruling, nor do we need the other

12 one which suggest that you can put organic

13 ingredients on the back label. That's it.

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

15 MR. DOLAN: Oh, they always have

16 questions for the wine guy.

17 MR. SMILLIE: We love your

18 product.

19 MR. DOLAN: All right. We love

20 it.

21 MR. SMILLIE: In the vein of the 

22 "made with" and, again, 70 percent is a "made
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1 with" label which is the only label you are

2 currently able to operate under so if we got

3 rid of that, you wouldn't have anything at

4 this point in time which I agree is ludicrous. 

5 What's your view and your industry's take on

6 the interpretation that you can have different

7 varieties of grapes as organic and nonorganic

8 in the same meritage blend?

9 MR. DOLAN: Crazy. It's crazy. 

10 MR. SMILLIE: Total nonsense.

11 MR. DOLAN: Nobody wants it. We

12 don't want it. We're saying don't give that

13 to us. We just as soon not have that and we

14 just as soon just have 100 percent or 95

15 percent.

16 MR. SMILLIE: You don't want to go

17 a hundred either.

18 MR. DOLAN: You probably don't

19 want to go to a hundred.

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Katrina.

21 MS. HEINZE: Have you submitted a

22 petition to change the annotation for
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1 sulfites?

2 MR. DOLAN: Yes. Paolo is going

3 to speak to that next.

4 MS. HEINZE: Oh, fabulous. 

5 Thanks.

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jon.

7 MR. FOSTER: When you -- forgive

8 how odd this question sounds. When you add

9 the sulfur compounds to wine do you consider

10 wine to be synthetic at that point or a

11 nonsynthetic product? I'm just asking.

12 MR. DOLAN: It's wine. Just wine. 

13 I've been involved in wine making for a long

14 time. I'm the fourth generation. My great

15 grandfather was the one that brought the

16 technology of sulfites from France over to

17 this country. 

18 Actually he was an Italian but on

19 a trip over there he discovered the use of it

20 and he found that you could just stabilize

21 wines and so for over 120 years now we've been

22 using sulfites in the use of wine production
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1 and it's just created stability. Absent

2 sulfites, you know, the wines fall apart very

3 quickly and then you lose the integrity of the

4 product and that's not really what we want to

5 do.

6 MR. FOSTER: So it's wine before

7 and wine after.

8 MR. DOLAN: Thank you.

9 MR. FOSTER: Is that right?

10 MR. DOLAN: Thank you. Yes.

11 MR. FOSTER: Excellent.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Those kind

13 of questions are not allowable from a first14 year member. I'm sorry. I can just imagine

15 15 or 16 years ago this was probably a very

16 contentious conversation and so hopefully you

17 won't be going forward with it.

18 Anymore questions? Thank you. 

19 I'm on the wrong page. Whoever knows they are

20 coming up knows they are coming up.

21 MR. BONETTI: Here's the petition.

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Brian
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1 Fitzpatrick, Chris -- whoever is from ZD

2 Wines.

3 MR. BONETTI: Here's the petition. 

4 I agree with everything that Paul said. My

5 name is Paolo Bonetti. I'm president of

6 Organic Vintners from Boulder, Colorado. My

7 company has been in the organic wine industry

8 since October of 2001 after the Boxer McCall

9 amendment to allow the FDA to allow the use of

10 sulfites in wine.

11 We are primarily an importer of

12 organic wines and we also product domestic and

13 imported wines with our own brand also called

14 Organic Vintners which make up about 25

15 percent of our business. All our wines are

16 made from 100 percent organic grapes that

17 comply with the NOP and contain no more than

18 the permissible amount of sulfur dioxide which

19 is 100 parts per million. By comparison

20 conventional wines are allowed up to 350. 

21 In addition to complying with the

22 NOP alcoholic beverage labels are controlled
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1 by the US Tax and Trade Bureau so it's my

2 responsibility to help my foreign exporters

3 comply with their regulations as well.

4 On October 8, 2009 our domestic

5 certifier, CCOF, informed us that Organic

6 Vintners brand would not longer be acceptable

7 because the product is in the "made with"

8 category. Up to that time CCOF and the TTB

9 had approved 41 labels over an eight-year

10 period. Upon this certification we were

11 horrified, as you will be, by what we

12 discovered.

13 We previously thought that all

14 wine making and the organic claims were made

15 from 100 percent organic grapes with sulfites

16 or without sulfites because of the basic

17 fundamental long-standing principle of organic

18 agriculture to not have any organic and

19 nonorganic form in the same ingredient.

20 We discovered this not to be true

21 in wine. When the final regulations were

22 passed, the language chosen for wine with
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1 added sulfites was not subject to appear for

2 public comment and these wines were restricted

3 to the inferior claim of made with organic

4 grapes which does not allow the use of the

5 USDA organic seal and does not allow the

6 product to be called organic wine.

7 Because made with organic

8 ingredients requires only 70 percent organic

9 agricultural products, we discovered that

10 wines containing 30 percent nonorganic grapes

11 were also permitted to make the same claim

12 "made with organic grapes." 

13 This horrifying fact was confirmed

14 by an NOP and TTB joint publication issued

15 last June called "Guidelines for Labeling Wine

16 with Organic References." This document

17 recommends a brand new label to the organic

18 industry which is supposed to clarify the 30

19 percent rule by making the claim "made with

20 organic grapes and nonorganic grapes." Have

21 you all seen this? If you haven't, I have

22 extra copies.
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1 How is a consumer supposed to know

2 that "made with" is 100 percent organic

3 because it does not have the seal and it does

4 not have to say organic wine. Interestingly,

5 at the same time this document was issued last

6 June Canada announced its own organic program

7 the COR, Canadian Organic Regime. Canada was

8 well aware of the US rules on organic wine and

9 chose not to adopt them. 

10 In Canada organic wine without

11 sulfur dioxide is liable to be called organic

12 wine and may carry the COR seal. A month

13 later the US and Canada signed an historic

14 equivalency agreement on organic regulations.

15 We are also expecting the European Union to

16 pass its own organic regulations in June of

17 this year allowing the wines with added

18 sulfites to be labeled as organic and use the

19 seal.

20 To take advantage of these foreign

21 regulations Organic Vintners recently exported

22 a California organic wine with added sulfites
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1 with a Canadian organic seal on the principle

2 display panel to a customer in England whose

3 label was approved by CCOF for export only.

4 We submitted this shocking label

5 you are looking at to the USDA accredited

6 certifiers of Argentina, Italy, Switzerland

7 and Germany and they all rejected it, as we

8 suspected, stating that they could only allow

9 an organic claim with the existence of

10 nonorganic grapes. 

11 This puts the NOP's made with

12 organic grapes category at odds with new and

13 existing international regulations. We think

14 you and Canada are correct and believe the

15 NOSB should not allow organic wine to contain

16 nonorganic grapes and should amend the

17 annotation for sulfur dioxide on the National

18 List.

19 How much time do I have left? One

20 minute Thank you.

21 An overwhelming majority of

22 organic wine makers use sulfur dioxide to
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1 stabilize a product dating back to 1487. They

2 are all prohibited from using the USDA seal

3 causing consumer confusion over the difference

4 between organic wine and wine made with

5 organic grapes. 

6 This has inhibited the growth of

7 our industry. We estimate that 2 percent of

8 all wine sales in the US are organic wines

9 while the organic food and beverage category

10 enjoys a 3.5 percent market share.

11 The only symbol that gives

12 consumers confidence, assurance, and trust and

13 the legitimacy of organic integrity is the

14 USDA seal. Thank you for coming up with it. 

15 Although the additional sulfur dioxide is

16 permitted by an act of Congress, NOP would not

17 allow over 99 percent of wine makers using 100

18 percent organic grapes across the world to

19 call it organic wine. 

20 Therefore, for the benefit of the

21 domestic and international organic wine

22 industry and the promulgation of organic
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1 agriculture in general, organic vintners and

2 co-petitioners Paul Dolan and others have

3 submitted an annotation to sulfur dioxide in

4 Section 205.605(b) to allow wines with added

5 sulfur dioxide to be labeled as organic

6 instead of made with organic grapes. Thank

7 you.

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

9 MR. BONETTI: If anybody wants a

10 copy, it's right here.

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: I would. 

12 Anybody that wants one can take one.

13 Joe.

14 MR. SMILLIE: To follow up with

15 the complications we're getting as we move

16 into the era of equivalency clashing with the

17 age of enforcement, you could contract a

18 Canadian wine maker to certify a wine under

19 the core and put the USDA seal on it.

20 MR. BONETTI: Right. We could but

21 the label has to be approved by the TTB and

22 they wouldn't.
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1 MR. SMILLIE: Ah.

2 MR. BONETTI: Right? 

3 MR. SMILLIE: The USDA would

4 accept it but TTB --

5 MR. BONETTI: The USDA would

6 accept it? You would accept a wine that says

7 "organic wine from Canada" with a USDA seal

8 that contained sulfites? I don't think so,

9 Joe. It would be nice.

10 MR. SMILLIE: Well, let me ask the

11 program. If there is an equivalency agreement

12 and that's not part of the exclusions, if a

13 Canadian wine maker in compliance with the

14 core put a USDA seal on a Canadian wine, which

15 noncompliance would they be charged with?

16

17 MR. BONETTI: Excuse me. Are you

18 directing the question to --

19 MR. SMILLIE: I'm asking the

20 program.

21 MR. BONETTI: Oh, okay.

22 MR. McEVOY: First of all, I think
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1 you have a lot of good points. The National

2 List does say that sulfites are only allowed

3 to be used and made with organic products so

4 in order for that to change there has to be a

5 petition. You are following the right

6 procedure petitioning the Board for a change

7 to the annotation.

8 MR. BONETTI: Thank you.

9 MR. McEVOY: So that's great. 

10 I'll let Shannon answer the question in terms

11 of the nonorganic components because Shannon

12 is really on top of the TTB question.

13 In terms of the equivalency

14 arrangement, the equivalency arrangement

15 doesn't mean that you -- you still have to

16 follow US labeling laws for products so it's

17 an equivalency of organic products but you

18 still have to follow the US labeling laws. 

19 TTB has certain labeling requirements and you

20 have to meet those in order to sell an organic

21 product within the US

22 MR. BONETTI: So the answer is no.
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1 MR. McEVOY: At this time.

2 MR. BONETTI: Otherwise, the other

3 thought we had when I heard the same thing

4 George has said is why not export a wine to

5 Canada with a USDA seal on it and then import

6 it back into America if the answer was yes. 

7 Right?

8 MR. McEVOY: It still has to

9 comply with the US labeling.

10 MR. BONETTI: Right. Of course.

11 MR. McEVOY: It's an area that

12 needs some work.

13 MR. BONETTI: Any other questions? 

14 Thank you.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Shannon,

16 did you have anything to add on this since

17 they made you walk all that way?

18 MR. SMILLIE: Have we received the

19 petition yet?

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: We just

21 did. 

22 PARTICIPANT: No.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No. We

2 haven't received it. No, we have not received

3 it.

4 MS. HEINZE: The chair has not

5 received it from the program. While you all

6 have it in front of you, we have not

7 officially received it.

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Pay no

9 attention to the man behind the screen. Okay.

10 MR. McEVOY: Do you want

11 clarification on the not organic, organic wine

12 component?

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

14 MR. McEVOY: We'll try.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Shannon.

16 MS. NALLY: Let's see. Last

17 summer in June of 2009 we did issue a

18 clarification to add essentially a new

19 labeling category that is only specific to

20 wines that would allow the "made with" claim

21 to state "made with organic and nonorganic

22 grapes" because we were informed that what was
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1 happening is that some wines that had the

2 label "made with organically grown grapes" had

3 70 percent organic grapes but within that 30

4 percent had nonorganic grapes. 

5 The implication of made with

6 organically grown grapes claim on the label to

7 a consumer imply that the wine contains only

8 organic grapes. Therefore, we allow grapes of

9 different varieties, not the same variety, to

10 be organic. 

11 We allow organic and nonorganic

12 grapes of different varieties but the organic

13 grapes still have to be present at the 70

14 percent level and the nonorganic grapes can be

15 within the 30 percent but they have to be a

16 different variety than the organic grapes.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: I

18 understand that.

19 Brian, then Chris from ZD and

20 Patrick Riggs.

21 MR. FITZPATRICK: Hi. I'm Brian

22 Fitzpatrick of Fitzpatrick Winery and Lodge. 
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1 I am the pioneer of making wines from

2 organically grown grapes. We are celebrating

3 our 30th year. I've spent my entire life, 40

4 years, in the organic food industry. 

5 I've tried to be in the right

6 place at the right time but I have suffered

7 because of this misunderstanding of how wines

8 need to be made and the benefits have not come

9 my way. I still am committed to producing

10 wines made from organically grown grapes but

11 we get no premium for our product at all

12 because of the misconception that is out there

13 and the confusion. 

14 I made wine when the natural food

15 industry didn't allow alcohol in their

16 establishment when they considered that not

17 part of a healthy diet. I've come a long way

18 and I've always been in the right place but

19 it's never been the right time yet and I hope

20 we can clear that up. 

21 What I'm here though is for a more

22 immediate need for clarification although I
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1 support the speakers before me. One of them

2 is that wine has to be understood. Wine is a

3 family of derivatives. Now, that term is not

4 very well received at the moment. Wine is not

5 just hardy burgundy. 

6 Wine can be red wine, white wine,

7 rose, sweet, off-dry. It could be dry. It

8 could be sparkling. It could be a brandy. It

9 could be a sherry-like wine. It can be a

10 fortified wine like a port. It could be

11 vinegar and it could be a distillate. That's

12 the family of wine and that's what our product

13 is is a family of products all derived from

14 the organically grown grape.

15 Well, recently I started making

16 vinegars about three years ago and CCOF is

17 saying that I can't call my vinegar "made from

18 organically grown grapes." The fact of the

19 matter is what is vinegar? 

20 Vinegar is part of the family of

21 wine and all I do with vinegar is I cull out

22 wines that I don't feel are good enough for
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1 our label to be bottled as a wine and I move

2 them to what I call the vinegar house because

3 they can't be in the winery and I allow oxygen

4 and time to take them to their end result,

5 vinegar. 

6 Now, what do I tell my customers? 

7 Where is this vinegar from? It's from

8 organically grown grapes. It's the same exact

9 product. It's just part of the family of wine

10 so I want to have that cleared up.

11 This family is wine is well

12 supported by the TTB, and I think this form is

13 an old form but the 702 form that we have to

14 fill out has categories which list all these

15 different things whether it be sparkling wine,

16 a distillate, under 14 percent, over 14

17 percent, and vinegar. It's all in the same

18 form. The definition of what is this family

19 of wine that already exist, nobody has to

20 redefine that.

21 Another issue I have is the

22 interpretation that somehow my product is
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1 poison when it comes to making an organic

2 product with my wine and/or any of the family

3 of my wines in it. My wines meet all of the

4 95 percent rule. 

5 As a matter of fact, when CCOF

6 pushed me to put ingredient labels in the very

7 beginning when the TTB didn't require them, I

8 put on there 99.999 percent organic

9 ingredients and then sulfur dioxide. I mean,

10 that is how ludicrous this is. Somehow CCOF

11 is making the decision that I cannot use my

12 product in an organic product.

13 For instance, I could take my

14 vinegar and just boil it with organic sugar

15 and make a beautiful sweet and sour hard

16 candy. I could blend it with olive oil and

17 make a beautiful, you know, vinaigrette

18 dressing. 

19 There are all sorts of things

20 whether it be culinary sauces, mustards,

21 jellies, marinades, reductions, confections,

22 all sorts of things that I spent my life
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1 wanting to make a product that I would be able

2 to use that in making other products. 

3 Supposedly I can't do that. 

4 This has been a revelation that

5 just come to me in the past six months and I

6 can't believe what I hear on that regard.

7 Another item is labeling requirements. For

8 some reason wine has been relegated to having

9 different requirements than any other product

10 has. 

11 Take, for instance, apple juice. 

12 The apple juice fellow can every morning start

13 to juice apples of many different varieties,

14 from different sources, and different blends,

15 different percentages, and then slaps the same

16 label on that he's been using for 10 years. 

17 Somehow because I make wines that

18 have vintage dates on them I have to have a

19 product profile for every single one of these. 

20 That's ridiculous and it's putting a standard

21 in front of me that doesn't exist with any

22 other organic product there is. 
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1 I ask you, this is immediate need,

2 to clarify those three issues, that vinegar is

3 wine, that I should be allowed to use any of

4 my products in making of organic products, and

5 that this labeling requirement should be no

6 greater than any other organic product that's

7 out there.

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

9 Tracy. 

10 MS. MIEDEMA: Sir, have you

11 checked with TTB on that third question you

12 had because the provenance and the variety of

13 the grape seems to be outside the purview of

14 USDA. That seems to be a secondary labeling

15 requirement of wine.

16 MR. FITZPATRICK: I always refer

17 to CCOF, "You should not be creating labeling

18 requirements. TTB has that all covered. We

19 are allowed to not have to resubmit for label

20 approval for a whole host of reasons. One is

21 vintage doesn't trigger that, alcohol doesn't

22 trigger that. 
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1 The percentage of the grapes if

2 you don't list them on the label you just put

3 a varietal there and it doesn't trigger that. 

4 TTB has it all worked out and that is all that

5 should be enforced within the organic realm of

6 labeling is what TTB rules are.

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Further

8 questions? Thank you.

9 Chris from ZD, Patrick Riggs, and

10 Amelia Slayton. 

11 Sorry on your last name. I'm

12 Italian, too, but I'm not going to try that

13 one.

14 MR. PISANI: It's Pisani.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Pisani. 

16 You pull that fire thing and switched the

17 letters.

18 MR. PISANI: My name is Chris

19 Pisani. I am the wine maker at ZD Wines in

20 Napa, California. I apologize in advance. 

21 I'm going to address the sulfite issue in wine

22 making, in particular the made with
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1 organically grown grapes. I do want to say

2 that I also support the previous speakers and

3 their approach.

4 A brief background. ZD Wines is a

5 small family-owned winery in Napa Valley that

6 has been making wine since 1969. The de Leuze

7 family has been deeply committed to organic

8 farming practices producing wines of high

9 quality and distinction.

10 Our state vineyard in Rutherford,

11 California has been farmed organically since

12 1985. It was certified in 1999 via CCOF. 

13 Another property we purchased in the Carneros

14 in 1996 was immediately converted to organic

15 farming after our purchase and also certified

16 our winery in 2001 as a handler.

17 We are committed to producing

18 first and foremost a premium product. We use

19 always the best ecological practices and

20 methods that are available to us that even go

21 outside the realm of organic farming. As part

22 of that we recognize, as many other wine
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1 makers do, that sulfur dioxide is critical to

2 the process of making high-quality wines.

3 There is currently no other known

4 substance available approved for use in wine

5 making that has the same antioxidant

6 properties as sulfur dioxide. While we make

7 every attempt to keep the additions of S02 to

8 a minimum, and there have been many

9 technological advances in wine making that

10 allow us to do just that, there are several

11 things about S02 that pose problems for us.

12 Quickly, the nature of S02's action

13 in wine is that it's strongly pH dependent

14 and, as a result, a wine with a lower pH, say

15 3.3, may require only 25 parts per million to

16 protect it while a wine at 3.6 or 3.7 can need

17 upwards of 50.

18 Also, sulfur dioxide is extremely

19 reactive in wine. It reacts and binds and

20 essentially becomes inactive with many of the

21 other compounds; tannins, polyphenols in that

22 product and, again, no longer protects the
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1 wine.

2 I should also mention that it is

3 produced naturally by yeast. I have

4 personally documented levels in wines that

5 have had no sulfur dioxide added

6 prefermentation to finish in the range of 26

7 to 40 part per million as total. That's

8 coming just from yeast metabolism.

9 As a result what has wound up

10 happening to us on many occasions is because

11 of the NOP Rule 205.605(b) that specifically

12 states that wine made with organically grown

13 grapes cannot have more than 100 parts per

14 million total. 

15 I could find no reason or record

16 of where that 100 part per million number came

17 from. As it stands right now the FDA

18 recognizes sulfur dioxide as GRAS or generally

19 recognized as safe and regulates its limit at

20 350 parts. I doubt there are many wineries

21 right now under the "made with" label that

22 have wines that can approach that level.
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1 Unfortunately what has happened to

2 us on several occasions we've made wines with

3 100 percent organically grown grapes, followed

4 all the NOP rules, no DAC, no sulfate, only to

5 have our levels at 105 or 106 at bottling so

6 basically we're almost there.

7 That being said, I mean, basically

8 we're just petitioning and, again, if you

9 agreed with the previous speakers and went

10 that route, I wouldn't be up here asking for

11 it. I would at least like to petition the

12 Board to revisit the S02 issue.

13 A lot has been learned about its

14 chemistry since the late '80s when a lot of

15 the stuff came out after the famous salad bar

16 incident with sulfites. It would be great if

17 we could revisit that and potentially raise

18 the level and match the FDA 350. Thank you.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

20 Just a couple quick things. Your speculation

21 is that the 105, 106 you're achieving

22 bacterial fermentations is what's pushing you
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1 over the top?

2 MR. PISANI: Not from bacterial,

3 from the yeast fermentation.

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Yeast

5 fermentation. Right.

6 MR. PISANI: We start in the hole

7 already sometimes at 40.

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: It's late. 

9 Okay. You said there is no alternative. I'm

10 going to throw you a softball because I know

11 we've talked before. Why do you know there is

12 no alternative?

13 MR. PISANI: Well, my

14 understanding is that there currently is a one

15 million dollar prize out there given through

16 the University of California Davis or somebody

17 affiliated with it to come up with another

18 material with the same antioxidant properties

19 and it has not been done. I don't have an

20 answer. I haven't been involved in finding

21 one but when somebody does, there is a nice

22 fat pay out there for you.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: I haven't

2 searched that out but it might be with the

3 Pasteur Institute, I think. Can you go into

4 a little more very briefly on the algae

5 situation?

6 MR. PISANI: Yes. I did some

7 reading up on that. Basically my

8 understanding is that back in the late '80s

9 after the salad bar incident, and maybe people

10 don't know the salad bar incident. It was a

11 case where they were spraying a very high

12 concentration of potassium metabisulfite over

13 their salad bar to preserve the vegetables.

14 A person that was asthmatic ate

15 the vegetables and had a very severe reaction

16 so this, of course, I believe the FASEB and

17 the FDA combined forces and looked at the

18 whole sulfite issue. The 350 I'm not sure how

19 they came up with that. I looked and did find

20 some papers that found that there is a very

21 percentage essentially of asthmatics. I think

22 the number is .4 percent of people with asthma
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1 that can potentially have a reaction to

2 sulfites.

3 Those people that have that

4 sensitivity are aware of it and they avoid

5 jams and jellies, juice concentrates. There

6 are plenty of products out there that have 10

7 times the level of sulfites in their products. 

8 I've seen numbers as high as 6,000. 

9 The numbers in wine are really

10 already way, way below those thresholds. I

11 found one particular university study that

12 said that under 200 parts per million it was,

13 I think, a sample of 30 asthmatics with the

14 condition that had no reaction at all in the

15 200 ppm range.

16 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

17 Thank you.

18 Patrick Riggs, Amelia Slayton, and

19 Patrick Leavy.

20 MR. RIGGS: Hello. My name is

21 Patrick Riggs. I'm a viticulturist for Jack

22 Neal and Son Vineyard Management. I've been
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1 around since 1968. Started farming

2 organically in '84. Responsible for the

3 organic certification of over 1,800 acres in

4 the Napa Valley. 95 percent of the stuff we

5 farm is currently organic certified or in the

6 three-year transition process. We also serve

7 as a wine grower for over 75 individual

8 wineries.

9 The organic wine labeling

10 standards and the consumer confusion

11 surrounding that has prevented the development

12 of a organic wine grape market as is typical

13 with most other commodities. If this market

14 existed more growers would transition to

15 certified organic farming.

16 Despite the absence of this market

17 many wine growers have gone organic because

18 they believe in organic farming. However,

19 economics can and will change that equation. 

20 I'll give you a specific example. One of our

21 previous clients had 450 acres of certified

22 organic wine grapes in the Napa Valley. 
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1 In 2008 when the market started to

2 move down a decision was made despite the

3 displeasure of the owner and they transitioned

4 back to conventional agriculture because they

5 did not believe that organic wine growing and

6 the associated standards was economically

7 viable in the long term. I disagree with this

8 but that's the fact.

9 The Board labeling in the lower

10 standard that others have eluded to around the

11 70 percent "made with organic" claim has

12 blurred the lines between certified organic

13 and sustainable or other green farming

14 methods. This is a disservice to organic

15 farmers who work their butts off and are held

16 to really high standards. A 95 percent

17 threshold makes a lot more sense.

18 If you make vineyard designated

19 wine 95 percent of the grapes have to come

20 from one place, that's what the TTB uses. It

21 makes more sense to use that requirement. 

22 This would also allow growers a little
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1 flexibility because there are other issues

2 with buffer rows and neighbor issues such as

3 pesticide drift that are beyond the individual

4 growers' control.

5 Due to a variety of factors

6 including the standards around wine labeling

7 many organic wines have been received by

8 consumers as being of low quality. Whether

9 this is fact or fiction does not matter. 

10 Most of this perception is due in

11 part to old and poorly conceived standards

12 surrounding wine processing aids that were

13 previously talked about which typically make

14 up less than .1 percent of the final product. 

15 This is a catch 22. It prevents wineries from

16 making organic wine and making wine made from

17 organic grapes and, therefore, growers have no

18 market for organic wine grapes.

19 Finally, slightly different. I

20 would love it if you guys could address the

21 removal of a term "organic" in trade names

22 unless these trade names are, indeed,
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1 certified organic. This is a disservice to

2 everybody who is certified organic across the

3 spectrum. That's all I got.

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

5 Questions? Joe.

6 MR. SMILLIE: Could you clarify

7 your role again? I didn't quite understand.

8 MR. RIGGS: I'm a viticulturist. 

9 I'm in the field every day concerned about

10 producing the highest quality.

11 MR. SMILLIE: So you work for a

12 number of different wineries and grape

13 growers?

14 MR. RIGGS: Yes.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

16 Thanks, Patrick.

17 MR. SMILLIE: It's more for the

18 program. Is there an understanding that if

19 you're a wine producing and you've got organic

20 in your name, because the only claim open to

21 you is the "made with" claim, that you're

22 pending policy on organic and the "made with"
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1 products, is that going to be an exception?

2 MR. McEVOY: Yes, that's the

3 concept is that would be the exception because

4 it's 100 percent organic ingredients and that

5 we would provide that exception. That's what

6 we're thinking in terms of the draft guidance.

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

8 Amelia, Patrick Leavy, Jon Cadoux.

9 MS. SLAYTON: Hello. My name's

10 Amelia and I have been in the organic growing

11 supply business since 1997 and also a brewer

12 of beer and recipe development for our company

13 since 1996. I'm here to talk about the

14 organic hops issue. Currently organic beer is

15 brewed in the US with nonorganic hops and they

16 are on the 205.606 list. We are requested

17 that they be removed when they sunset in 2012.

18 Having been in this business for a

19 very long time we learned some significant

20 reasons why we feel this should happen. The

21 first and foremost is that hops are a key

22 ingredient in beer and everybody who is a beer
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1 fanatic who knows this. It's like making

2 certified organic vanilla pudding and using

3 nonorganic vanilla. 

4 As a brewer for many years I've

5 had the opportunity to work with a very

6 limited array of hops. In the early years

7 from the first time I got samples from New

8 Zealand and Germany I decided to only use

9 organic hops. Today our company has recipes

10 for 25 different styles of beer. 

11 We now offer 25 different kinds of

12 organic hops so the market has changed

13 significantly in the 13 years that we've been

14 in business. We strongly believe that putting

15 a USDA seal on a bottle of beer that is made

16 without organic hops is very misleading to the

17 public. 

18 One of the reasons I'm here today

19 is as an activist and not particularly as a

20 company but I've been working on a petition

21 that is a public outreach petition and it's

22 interesting the reactions that people have
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1 when they learn that this beer is made without

2 organic hops. We have gathered about 600

3 signatures that I would like to give to you

4 folks today if I could.

5 Another reason we feel strongly

6 that this hops needs to be removed from the

7 list is that there has been very little

8 financial incentive in the organic hops market

9 in the US in the past few years to change.

10 To give you an example just from a

11 business standpoint, last year we had to

12 cancel two-thirds of a huge contract with

13 Germany because we didn't have buyers for the

14 hops. We tried to sell them. We tried to

15 sell them. We called breweries and when we

16 are trying to sell hops for $15 a pound and

17 they can use hops that are $5 a pound, that

18 really makes it a difficult sell.

19 Going back to consumers because

20 I've been in this meeting all day and I really

21 appreciate what you guys do here and I really

22 appreciate the opportunities to be able to
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1 come here because if it was in Washington

2 there would be no way for me to be able to

3 take the time and spend the money to go.

4 That's the truth for a lot of

5 people who are concerned about organic but

6 can't be here. That's why I wanted to bring

7 this petition that is from the public and has

8 their comments and their sentiment so that you

9 can see what they have to say about the issue.

10 One of the number one reasons that

11 people buy organic is because they want to

12 support organic sustainable earth friendly

13 agriculture and requiring hops in organic beer

14 will help achieve that.

15 Another big issue is the truth in

16 labeling. We just constantly hear people who

17 are just outraged that the product is labeled

18 organic and it doesn't clearly say whether the

19 hops are organic or not.

20 Finally, there is just an unfair

21 market advantage. We work with a lot of

22 breweries and we do sell wholesale and we do
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1 sell to small and medium-sized microbreweries. 

2 Those breweries are paying twice as much for

3 hops and they have an unfair market advantage

4 because some of these breweries have a very

5 strong commitment toward agriculture. 

6 They are taking that step. The

7 largest source of funding to develop organic

8 hop growing is from the largest end user which

9 are breweries. If there is a requirement by

10 2012 that they have to use organic hops, maybe

11 they will. Thank you.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

13 questions? Steve.

14 MR. DeMURI: Thank you for your

15 comments. I'm trying to understand your

16 affiliation. Are you a hops broker?

17 MS. SLAYTON: Yes.

18 MR. DeMURI: Okay. Do you ever

19 have certifiers calling you and asking you for

20 information on commercial availability of

21 organic hops?

22 MS. SLAYTON: No.
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1 MR. DeMURI: No. My other

2 question would be are you ever aware of any

3 hops varieties that have been requested as

4 organic that are not available as organic?

5 MS. SLAYTON: Yes. Some of that

6 has changed but there are almost 200 varieties

7 that we know of and it's unrealistic to wait

8 until all of those varieties are available. 

9 There are major classes of hops and good

10 substitutions. 

11 As a brewer for 15 years I know

12 what those are and can make educated

13 recommendations for developing recipes with

14 ultimate hops. You do have to be a little

15 creative and you do have a more limited range

16 of ingredients than a conventional brewer but

17 it is a starting place and we've got a pretty

18 good starting place now.

19 MR. DeMURI: Okay. Thank you.

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe, did

21 you have a question?

22 MR. SMILLIE: That's the quality. 
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1 What about just total overall quantity of

2 hops? Do you believe that there is organic

3 hops available for all the organic growing

4 that is currently occurring?

5 MS. SLAYTON: If we start

6 transitioning now for 2012 I believe we'll be

7 there. With world organic hop production I

8 believe we have the capability to do it but it

9 takes money. It takes money coming into the

10 system now. If someone asked me today if I

11 can provide them with 100,000 pounds of hops,

12 I would say no. 

13 We just don't have that buying

14 power yet. We had to turn away 10,000 pounds

15 of hops from Germany because we didn't have

16 buyers. If we work towards that goal in two

17 years we can get there. It just takes money.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay.

19 MR. FELDMAN: So thank you for

20 your comments. This is the challenge and

21 maybe you can help us because the burden on

22 the Board is to figure out whether there is
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1 commercial availability in the organic

2 alternative. 

3 Some of this will come up in a

4 conversation on sunset but rather than a

5 listed petition, I mean, we know people are

6 outraged by these sorts of things, the

7 information that would help move the Board

8 into a position of taking action on this

9 criterion of commercial availability would be

10 data that would show us in some format that

11 would be reliable that the market could be

12 filled. The market demand could be filled by

13 the organic alternative.

14 MS. SLAYTON: I don't have that

15 data today but it's something I'm happy to

16 work on to give to you by the fall meeting.

17 MR. FELDMAN: The reason I'm

18 intrigued by this is because this is not a

19 problem unique to hops. This is a generalized

20 problem that the Board needs to work more

21 closely with the community, the organic

22 community on. If you could be a trail blazer
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1 in this area, it would be phenomenal, I think.

2 MS. SLAYTON: Do you know there are

3 organic hops being sold to conventional

4 breweries because they don't have buyers from

5 organic breweries. I don't have the solid

6 numbers but we can get those.

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jeff.

8 MR. MOYER: I think to follow up

9 Joe sort of asked my question but it's a two10 part question. One is is it available and if

11 it is available then it would be incumbent

12 upon you to petition this Board not, as Jay

13 said, to give us a stack of petitions but to

14 petition the program to have hops removed from

15 606 and then that would come to the Board.

16 MS. SLAYTON: That has been done

17 and I participated in that as well.

18 MR. MOYER: But we don't have it

19 yet.

20 MR. SMILLIE: Yes, we do.

21 MR. MOYER: Oh, you have it.

22 MR. SMILLIE: It's on our work
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1 plan.

2 MR. MOYER: Oh, never mind.

3 MS. SLAYTON: We're taking two

4 different approaches to it. I did have a

5 question. Can I give these two today or

6 should I --

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Give those

8 to Valerie and we'll get them. Katrina.

9 MS. HEINZE: To clarify for you,

10 Jeff, we do have the petition to remove hops

11 and sulfites that we don't officially have. 

12 I do not need an answer for this today but

13 when we reviewed hops to put it on 606 one of

14 the big arguments had to do with drought and

15 pest residence. 

16 I don't remember all the details

17 but perhaps you could look at the original

18 petition and some of our deliberations. It

19 would be very useful for us in the fall to

20 have some public comment on those particular

21 topics. Thank you.

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe.
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1 MR. SMILLIE: Just a small point. 

2 It's not up to the Board to determine

3 commercial availability. It's up to the

4 certification agencies to determine

5 availability. There's a lot of ways to do

6 that but one of the most common ones is if you

7 are producing vanilla pudding without organic

8 vanilla and you've got three competitors who

9 are using organic vanilla, you better have

10 some pretty good argument why you're not using

11 it. 

12 That's not the be all and end all

13 of commercial availability but it's certainly

14 an early indication. If a large volume of

15 organic beers start showing up on the market

16 with organic hops in it, then the antenna

17 start pointing at, okay, commercial

18 availability is starting to happen and now the

19 scrutiny starts to go onto their clients who

20 are not using organic hops so it's kind of

21 push you/pull me kind of situation for

22 commercial availability. 
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1 I agree with you it is a catch 22

2 but 606 is designed to spur organic production

3 and that's the certification agent's job is to

4 make sure that their --

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe, do

6 you have a question in there, please?

7 MR. SMILLIE: No question.

8 MS. SLAYTON: I do have a

9 response, though. I mean, the problem that we

10 see is that the label looks exactly the same

11 to the consumer whether it has organic hops or

12 whether it doesn't. Unless there is a

13 distinction, we want hops off the list.

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

15 further questions?

16 MR. FELDMAN: I have a question

17 for Joe.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No. No.

19 MR. FELDMAN: I'll ask you later.

20 MR. SMILLIE: See me later.

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: All right. 

22 Thank you.
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1 Patrick Leavy, Jon Cadoux, and

2 Bill Wolf on hold.

3 MR. LEAVY: Mr. Chairman and

4 members of the Board, I would like to thank

5 you for the opportunity to speak today. My

6 name is Pat Leavy and I am current president

7 of the American Organic Hop Growers

8 Association. I've grown hops for 33 years and

9 I'm in my fourth year of organic hop

10 production.

11 On December 8th of 2009 a petition

12 was filed by the American Organic Hop Growers

13 Association to remove hops from 606 of the

14 National Organic Program. The decision to

15 file the petition was made last summer before

16 the timeline for the sunset process for

17 agricultural ingredients added in 2007 was set

18 in motion.

19 At the time we felt organic hops

20 were commercially available and their

21 continued placement on the National List was

22 undermining the further development of organic
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1 production. It was imperative to start the

2 process before organic production was

3 discouraged, particularly here in the US

4 Also, we have submitted comments

5 for this meeting. These comments request that

6 a timely review of the petition given the

7 timeline that has been set out for the sunset

8 process it is a moot point. A decision will

9 be made this fall. I ask that question. Is

10 that an accurate statement?

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No and

12 yes. It's not moot. We could vote to keep it

13 on sunset and then consider your petition.

14 MR. LEAVY: Okay.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: They do

16 not have to --

17 MR. LEAVY: Okay. Thank you.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Yes.

19 MR. LEAVY: Because that's

20 something new. It's sort of like, it's been

21 lately, which way did they go.

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: They maybe
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1 overlap but it's a matter of receiving

2 information. If we can't get all the

3 information we need, we would vote to continue

4 to sunset and then with more information

5 consider the petition to remove.

6 MR. LEAVY: Again, this gets into

7 how this should be done. The petition is in

8 place. Should we resubmit these arguments or

9 our position in the comment period also?

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Whenever

11 you can.

12 MR. LEAVY: Okay. Because we have

13 additional information to provide on that and

14 your questions are helpful. Thank you.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Yes.

16 MR. LEAVY: Okay. While I'm here

17 I would like to make the following points. 

18 Today there are unsold organic hops available

19 in the spot market. Today organic hops are

20 being used in the production of nonorganic

21 beer. This may seem like an accomplishment

22 but it would be better to see organic hops in
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1 organic beer. 

2 Nearly 100 percent of the

3 nonorganic hops being produced in 2010 are

4 under contract. This is a number exceeding

5 over 30,000 acres. Whereas, less than 10

6 percent of the organic hops being produced in

7 2010 are under contract.

8 Since November of 2009, board

9 members of the association have listed their

10 farms on the Accredited Certifier's

11 Association 606 website. As of this day not

12 one farm has received an inquiry resulting

13 from this site. 

14 Given the fact that certifiers

15 required processors who have a system in place

16 that regularly searches for organic

17 ingredients and want to see commercial

18 availability reviewed regularly, this is a

19 disappointing development.

20 The question is how many varieties

21 of hops must be available for hops to no

22 longer be on the list. If the criteria to
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1 remove an ingredient from the list is that

2 every variety of the crop must be commercially

3 available, very few crops, if any, would be

4 removed from the list. If there's not enough

5 varieties now how many more do we need? Five,

6 10? What would be the number? Every year new

7 varieties are coming into the system from the

8 breeding programs.

9 Lastly, no one should be surprised

10 by the removal of hops from the list. The

11 sunset process is well known and everyone

12 knows that a petition can happen at any time. 

13 Arguments that the removal of hops will

14 disrupt the organic beer production can be

15 made forever, especially when there has been

16 very little effort to use organic hops.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

18 Questions? I have a question for you as a

19 hops grower. The information we received in

20 2007 is that hops can tend to have a high

21 susceptibility to molds. Is that a true

22 statement from you as a hop grower?
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1 MR. LEAVY: Hops are susceptible

2 to two funguses, downy mildew and powdery

3 mildew. They are environment dependent. In

4 Western Oregon, where I grow hops, downy

5 mildew is an issue. In Eastern Washington

6 powdery mildew is the issue.

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Is that a

8 problem for you as an organic hops grower?

9 MR. LEAVY: I pick varieties, as

10 we are supposed to do under the NOP as part of

11 the pest control. I select varieties which

12 have resistance to the disease and that is

13 part of an organic farmer's responsibility. 

14 I grow varieties that are resistant to downy

15 mildew as what I put in the market place.

16 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

17 Thank you.

18 Jay.

19 MR. FELDMAN: Do you think that

20 hops should have been put on 606 originally?

21 MR. LEAVY: I started in 2007 with

22 a 10th of an acre of hops, of organic hops. 
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1 I thought about commenting at the time and

2 felt I did not have enough expertise or

3 experience to do it. I would say yes. That

4 was a decision that I could not argue with. 

5 Looking back on it now, I would

6 change my mind because of the spirit I have

7 seen in the marketplace. It won't work this

8 way but it would have been a good backup

9 system. In other words, as the organic hop

10 industry developed and, say, there were

11 problems or a little bit of a supply issue,

12 then the option of using a nonorganic hop

13 would have kept the organic beer makers going.

14 I could see if it was done right,

15 as a good system. As of today I think it is

16 very damaging to the business. We have put

17 our organic operation on hold until the

18 situation changes so, yes. Sorry.

19 MR. FELDMAN: And a quick follow20 up. Do you see any situations in which

21 certifiers are not appropriately or adequately

22 defining commercial availability of the
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1 organic hops? Do you have specific instances

2 where certifiers in your view did not

3 adequately disallow conventional hops, given

4 the availability of organic?

5 MR. LEAVY: I can get in a lot of

6 trouble here. I mean, to be honest with you,

7 there's blow-back on being up here, in the

8 market place, that I can handle. Then there

9 can be blow-back on certifiers. There are

10 things -- I can give you an example. 

11 I don't know if the certifier

12 accepted this so I swill not put this in the

13 certifier -- it's not quite what you wanted --

14 but I had an organic brewer who made sort of,

15 we'll say, a blanket email through the Oregon

16 Hop Commission to all the growers in

17 Oregon saying that I'm looking for organic

18 hops closer to home. 

19 The reason that was said is that a

20 lot of organic hops are grown in New Zealand

21 and in Germany. The email is coming, "I want

22 them closer to home." Okay, fine. I knew
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1 this brewery. I've had contact with this

2 brewery. They know I exist, so I thought

3 about whether to respond. 

4 I responded back, just to do it,

5 told them which varieties I have and have

6 never heard back. Now, if I was a certifier

7 I would not have accepted that as sourcing and

8 there are two reasons. First of all, they are

9 under an obligation to source for that hop in

10 the form. All they did was ask if I wanted to

11 grow organic hops. 

12 I wouldn't have accepted because

13 they'd never asked for the form so how am I

14 supposed to know what organic hop is desired? 

15 Not only are they supposed to look for the

16 hops with the right form but they also talk

17 about quantities so I did not even get, "I

18 want 5,000 pounds of variety X, Y, Z." 

19 I don't know if it is but I would

20 not have accepted that as one of the attempts

21 to source organic. It did not ask for

22 variety. It did not ask for quantity. The
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1 big problem that they are having is a

2 reluctance by breweries to give us any

3 information and I have another example but,

4 you know, there's people waiting. Thank you.

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

6 Jon Cadoux, Bill Wolf, Richard Holt.

7 MR. CADOUX: Thanks for the time. 

8 Valerie, thanks, before I even start, for just

9 helping me out with this PowerPoint. I really

10 appreciate it.

11 I'm Jon, I'm the founder and I'm

12 the president of Peak Organic Brewing Company. 

13 We're out of Portland, Maine. I thought it

14 would interesting to give a little bit of

15 perspective from the brewer's side. We are

16 one of the few brewing companies in the

17 country. 

18 I think there are under five who

19 just exclusively brews organic beer so it's

20 not a line extension for us. It's literally

21 100 percent of what we do. We're not

22 diversified. Organic beer is everything to
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1 us. I think that the perspectives before me

2 were interesting. 

3 I think that we all sort of agree

4 on the 10,000 foot view that we all wish that

5 organic beer was brewed with 100 percent

6 organic hops. It's just that right now, at

7 least today, that's not a reality. There are

8 things that we can do in the future that I

9 want to talk about to get there. 

10 I think that we need to be really

11 sensitive to brewers, too, who are critical to

12 this entire supply chain and sort of the

13 things that we're up against. The first

14 thing, the challenge for us is that when a

15 supply of 100 pounds of any organic variety

16 comes up we're buying varieties in the

17 thousands of pounds so that's what we need,

18 sort of, to brew our beers. 

19 Another thing, there is a lot of

20 talk in this petition about unsold organic

21 hops and I've looked a lot into it and I agree

22 with the fact that there are some out there
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1 that are unsold. The one that I've noticed is

2 in the biggest quantity is the Palisade hop.

3 Valerie, if you go to the next

4 slide real quick. A couple of years ago

5 Anheuser-Busch decided to get in the organic

6 beer game and they came out with a couple

7 different organic beer labels and encouraged

8 and worked with some farmers to create an

9 organic Palisade hop which came out in really

10 large quantities. 

11 Then they have since backed out of

12 that game, so now the Palisade hop, which Peak

13 doesn't use and I think probably the vast

14 majority of other organic brewers do not use,

15 is sort of out there for consumption and it

16 puts us in a difficult spot because it's not

17 a hop that we use. Again, they encourage

18 those farmers to grow a whole lot of that hop

19 so it's a really difficult situation.

20 One thing I want to talk about is

21 the fact that hops are not hops are not hops. 

22 There is this sort of notion of
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1 interchangability which I think is really

2 complicated. Different hop varieties have

3 really different characteristics and the

4 demand levels for different hop varieties vary

5 considerably based on those characteristics.

6 These are two examples that I

7 thought I would give you guys. The one on the

8 left is the Palisade that I talked about

9 before, and I highlighted in red some of the

10 things that are critical to the conversation. 

11 This is sort of a spec sheet if you will. 

12 Both are aroma-type hops.

13 The Palisade hop gives off these

14 sort of earthy herbal aromas and tastes and

15 the Centennial, which is an increasingly

16 popular hop used in IPAs, which is a very

17 popular style, gives off more of a citrusy,

18 floral flavor. 

19 They are both technically hops, no

20 doubt about it, but the flavor and the aroma

21 that they give off are wildly different. I

22 think that is something that really needs to
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1 be taken into consideration. The key thing

2 here is the oils, if you look at the bottom. 

3 So the Palisade is pretty high on

4 this caryophyllene oil. Sixteen to 18 percent

5 of its total oils are that and, again, that

6 oil gives off those sort of earthy, herbal

7 aromas and flavors. Then the Centennial, the

8 myrcene oil is 58 percent of total oils. That

9 oil contributes to that big citrusy, floral

10 taste profile. 

11 And this is the taste profile that

12 is really popular in the marketplace right

13 now. That's just not something we can

14 control. Consumers when they are buying craft

15 beers are looking for hoppy beers, citrusy

16 beers. That's what's selling.

17 Go to the next slide. This is on

18 interchangeability. This is the opinion of

19 Ian Ward, who is the president. He is a Ph.D.

20 of Brewer Supply Group. I highlighted the key

21 parts here; but, today there are huge

22 variations in one hop variety to the next;
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1 different concentrations of over 150 aromatic

2 oils which interact to produce very different

3 organoleptic responses in the human palate.

4 Some hops will possess a very

5 citrusy character, others pine-like, and some

6 will possess spicy hops. Indeed, they are

7 examples of the same varieties grown. I'll

8 skip forward. In this author's opinion it is

9 possible for international brewers to swap

10 varieties of hops but the same cannot be said

11 for craft brewers. 

12 I'll skip ahead. This just shows

13 which brews are most popular in the market

14 place right now. Again, pale ales, amber

15 ales, IPAs using these citrusy hops. 

16 Interchangeability, again, we just see, out in

17 the marketplace, it's absolutely critical that

18 we have sufficient quantities of critical hop

19 varieties. That is sort of part of 606, in my

20 understanding.

21 Contracts. Peak. I can only

22 speak for ourselves. Nearly 100 percent of
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1 our barley and our hops are contracted and we

2 believe, anyway, that we've done a lot to spur

3 the supply of organic hops and organic barley

4 and this has come at a huge cost. Right now

5 our Hallartau contract is $27 a pound. I can

6 buy at Spot for 9 so we have incurred

7 absolutely huge costs for this but it's

8 something that we're passionate on.

9 I have one more slide at the end

10 that I would really love to show you guys, if

11 that's okay. These are just some of our

12 farmers doubling of organic barley over the

13 least two years. Sorry, Valerie. If you

14 could just keep going. Doubling the use of

15 organic wheat, doubling the use of organic

16 hops through contracts. 

17 I guess we can go to the next one. 

18 Suggested next steps. Okay. The good news

19 is, I think, like Amelia and Pat were saying,

20 there's been some really nice progress in the

21 availability of organic hops, there is no

22 doubt about it. There is a lot of acreage.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Could you

2 give that to us in a hard copy rather than

3 reading through the whole thing and wrap up

4 this?

5 MR. CADOUX: Can I wrap it up now?

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: You can

7 wrap it up now, but don't read the whole

8 thing.

9 MR. CADOUX: Good. Last thing. 

10 So that's the good news. The bad news is a

11 lot of this was used for one particular hop

12 variety and other varieties that are just not

13 currently in demand so what we believe is,

14 it's up to us as brewers to give contracts to

15 growers who have come on line and that is

16 something that we are dedicated to doing.

17 There's no doubt about it. We

18 have done it in the past and we'll do it in

19 the future. But I think, and I think I speak

20 on behalf of brewers, there needs to be a lot

21 of sensitivity to this whole

22 interchangeability piece and the lack of
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1 diversification with hops. If one of my

2 critical hop varieties, 100 percent of it is

3 coming from one farm, and for whatever reason

4 that farm goes out of business, there is a

5 weather event, something happens and that

6 variety is gone and hops --

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

8 I think we understand where you're going. 

9 MR. CADOUX: Okay.

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: We just

11 need to continue and move on. We're extremely

12 far behind. Very quickly, questions. 

13 Katrina.

14 MS. HEINZE: Just generally, for

15 beer, how much is water, how much is hops, how

16 much is whatever else goes into it? Like a

17 30-second answer.

18 MR. CADOUX: Vast majority of it

19 is water. Hoppy beer might be 1.5 percent

20 hops. All of our beers are over 99 percent

21 organic. Most are over 99.5 percent organic.

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Steve.
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1 MR. DeMURI: Real quick. In your

2 opinion how long do you think you need to get

3 there?

4 MR. CADOUX: I think we can do it

5 in 2012. I do. I think that if that is a

6 hard goal and one thing goes wrong, we're in

7 big trouble. Again, looking out there in the

8 United States and Pat's association I think it

9 seems like there are four farms out there

10 right now that are capable of growing the type

11 of acreage that we need. 

12 If something were to happen with

13 one of those, you know, it wouldn't work out. 

14 I do believe 2012 is possible but I think

15 there needs to be some sensitivity to what is

16 going to take to get there.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

18 further questions? Okay. Thank you.

19 Bill Wolf, Richard Holt. I'm gong

20 to assume it's Stephen Colbert. I don't think

21 Stephen Colbert is probably here.

22 One last thing, Jon. As Bill
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1 comes up to the viral video that's going

2 around, please keep it as beer and not

3 sparkling malted barley beverage.

4 MR. WOLF: While Valerie is

5 bringing up some slides, it's way after dinner

6 time my time. I also submitted a proxy and I

7 will not use the entire proxy. Nibble on

8 those while I get ready for these public

9 comments. I do have a proxy but I do not

10 intend to use all of the second five minutes. 

11 I will be as brief as I can. 

12 I'm going to talk about four

13 specific areas that you all are struggling

14 with and working with: first, on continuous

15 improvement, second, on the stabilization of

16 the regulatory environment, third, on

17 clarifying synthetic definitions, and fourth,

18 about inert ingredients.

19 To frame this, the roots of

20 organic agriculture are obviously a healthy

21 soil system. I've always talked about the

22 core principles behind the decisions about
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1 organic regulations being to ask the

2 earthworm, to see what they like in the

3 system. That's the frame.

4 Now I'd like to talk a little

5 about continuous improvement because very few

6 people look at organic as anything but the

7 absence of certain things. We've got several

8 new Board members here some of whom are

9 familiar with this principle but I think it's

10 critical to the way we think about moving

11 forward, and organic is more than no chemical

12 pesticides or fertilizers.

13 Built into the regulations I've

14 referenced four examples, not just in

15 cropping, not just in soils, but also in pest

16 control and in facility management where it's

17 embedded in the regs. With that in mind I

18 want to talk about the principle of continuous

19 improvement and request three ways to really

20 promote continuous improvement.

21 The first one is something I've

22 testified about several times in the past and
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1 it's kind of bogged down. I know it's not at

2 the top of the list but I'm going to address

3 it both to the NOSB and the NOP, and that is

4 that I think that if all ACAs had a place to

5 post every commercial availability decision in

6 a generic form, efficiently, on a website, it

7 would give us all a transparent place to

8 understand what is actually happening with

9 decisions like organic hops or anything else,

10 or organic seed, or the non-organic

11 ingredients that are on 605. 

12 Which takes me to point B, which

13 is, to apply organic preference to all

14 ingredients. Period. Across the board. 

15 We're seeing that in regulations around the

16 world. Canada has actually embedded it in

17 fertilizer requirements. 

18 C. When the list was constructed,

19 and I was one of the reviewers of some of the

20 materials back in the '90s, we really weren't

21 thinking about it being highly complex in the

22 structure of the list. Having 605 be broken
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1 into two sections and having 605 and 606

2 separated has actually caused an awful lot of

3 the discussions that we've been having. 

4 I would say that longer-term a

5 solution to some of these side debates where

6 we are not encouraging earthworms and instead

7 we are creating a lot of bureaucratic

8 conversation might be to look at merging 605

9 and 606 and reducing the debate about ag and

10 non-ag and synthetic and nonsynthetic.

11 Next slide, please. This is where

12 the heart of your work right now is so now

13 we're going to get down in the bushes, your

14 work about clarification of synthetics. First

15 of all, the March 1 documents are

16 extraordinarily thought out, well done, moving

17 forward. 

18 I think it does clarify the intent

19 of synthetic and chemical change far better

20 and it captures the precautionary principle to

21 restrict and review manmade synthesized

22 compounds. I think it improves the definition
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1 of chemical changes so I support that work.

2 I do want to raise three concerns

3 for consideration. One, continuing to

4 watchdog against the use of the definition of

5 synthetic that would cause the loss of

6 commonly accepted natural materials by looking

7 so closely at materials that we come up with

8 the idea that somehow it's synthetic.

9 I can tell you from doing reviews

10 of foreign regulations that they don't even

11 look at inerts, carriers, processes. The

12 active ingredient is all they look at. Now,

13 I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I think

14 actually they need to do more looking, for

15 those foreign regs, but I think we've been

16 looking way too deep. 

17 I was president of the Board of

18 OMRI for a number of years. I've not been on

19 the Board for the last six. I believe that

20 some of this work is going in the wrong

21 direction. We are looking at the wrong -- not

22 at the critical issues in organic. I want to
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1 say, please, be careful what you do that

2 causes damage to the availability of natural

3 materials.

4 And I could give you some examples

5 of those but I'm on a limited timeframe. I've

6 heard conversations and I've worked on all

7 kinds of issues like ion solutions that would

8 technically be a chemical change if you look

9 at it in one way as a chemist.

10 No. 2, I think that there are

11 categories on the National List but they are

12 generic categories such as insecticidal soap

13 and sticky traps. And I think that, you know,

14 for example, another category that really

15 should have been petitioned should have been

16 sugar esters rather than a specific compound

17 within the sugar ester group. I present that

18 as a concept because we are going down a road

19 where we are going to end up without those

20 groups.

21 Then, 3, there is a specific set

22 of language, in the March 1, 2010 document
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1 where the specific paragraph, the last

2 paragraph of page 9, says, "the presence of

3 any synthetic would cause a material to be a

4 synthetic." 

5 I think you need to clarify what

6 you meant by the presence of any synthetic and

7 I suggested some language here where it would

8 simply add the phrase, "the presence of any

9 synthetic at significant levels and

10 specifically added as an ingredient."

11 The insignificant significant

12 issue I know you're discussing and I've worked

13 on it as well. It's part of the materials

14 working group. I think that you're not going

15 to come up with a number in every case, but I

16 think it's really about functionality. If

17 that material is there at an insignificant

18 level and is not doing anything but was part

19 of the process of getting us a natural

20 material, then it's insignificant.

21 Next slide, please. Regarding

22 inert ingredients. I have registered
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1 pesticides. I have manufactured biologicals

2 and botanicals in a past life back in '95. I

3 stopped doing that but bottom line is that

4 it's a complicated process. It's very

5 complicated to get a registration through EPA.

6 I think that your current proposal

7 is unworkable. There has been discussion and

8 presentations about that. There have been

9 several suggestions that are good suggestions

10 that you've heard from presenters and in

11 public comment. I think cooperating with EPA

12 on the review of the merits is critical,

13 number one. 

14 And number two, I think the EPA's

15 newest proposal for full disclosure of all

16 inerts is good for everybody but I don't think

17 we should get ahead of the curve, meaning that

18 I don't think we should require it at any

19 faster pace than the EPA is doing. I think we

20 can retain the list for principle by

21 referencing the inerts allowed in 25(b) and

22 the inerts on EPA's list 180.950.
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1 Next slide, please. That's just

2 about Wolf DiMatteo. I'm open for questions.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions

4 from the Board. Katrina.

5 MS. HEINZE: This is not a

6 question but a clarification. I appreciate

7 the detailed reading of our addendum. 

8 Unfortunately page 9 is actually not part of

9 our addendum but it's part of our November

10 recommendation.

11 MR. WOLF: Correct.

12 MS. HEINZE: But I do get your

13 point, so thank you.

14 MR. WOLF: Thank you for pointing

15 that out. I should have clarified that. I

16 would say that is a good example of this whole

17 process that the perfect is not the enemy of

18 the good and I quote from the Deputy Secretary

19 when I say that. In this whole process we

20 need to be protecting the long-term overview,

21 that everything fits together.

22 MS. HEINZE: I appreciate your
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1 comments. Thank you.

2 MR. WOLF: Thank you.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: John.

4 MR. FOSTER: It's a real question

5 this time. 

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Good.

7 MR. FOSTER: Bill, what are some

8 of the examples of materials that you feel

9 being -- the natural materials you fear are

10 being lost?

11 MR. WOLF: Well, I'll give you

12 four examples. One, in mine mineral

13 processing ionic bonds are broken and put into

14 water and then recollected. In fact, that's

15 how salt is produced. 

16 There are a number of mine

17 minerals that are produced that way that would

18 end up technically being synthetic if you

19 said, "Well, was the chemical bond broken?" 

20 Salt would be considered -- most formulations

21 of salt would be considered synthetic under

22 that definition of chemical.
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1 That's why I go back to, was it a

2 manmade compound? And I think you have

3 captured that in talking about did it

4 represent its original material and intention. 

5 That's why I've said you've made real progress

6 in clarifying that gap. We talked about those

7 examples last time.

8 The second one is about compost

9 and this one makes me very nervous because

10 there is a number of materials going into

11 compost, especially food waste materials that

12 contain synthetic materials in the process, or

13 synthetics that are byproducts or even

14 products of food. 

15 Does that, therefore, make that

16 compost synthetic? That was not, in my

17 opinion, our intent in developing the organic

18 principles. So you've got manure, you've got

19 compost, you've got food waste. I think the

20 conversation about corn steep liquor fits the

21 same conversation. If you drill down and say

22 was the bond broken, where was it broken, it
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1 couldn't have been broken in the soluble part

2 of the corn. 

3 There's no way, because what

4 happens with that process in terms of S02 is

5 that it's absorbed by the corn and there is an

6 error in the presentation that was made on the

7 website now because that flow chart is wrong

8 because it says that the corn mash was

9 produced before the corn steep liquor was

10 removed. That's not the case. In other

11 words, we've got to really be careful where we

12 go here. Manure is the same way. 

13 Manure from conventional farms is

14 currently being used and I would love to see

15 a time in the future where we only use manure

16 from organic farms. We're not there yet but

17 right now, manure from conventional farms

18 contains, by their very character, synthetics. 

19 Those are a few examples.

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Katrina.

21 MS. HEINZE: Sorry, Dan. Have you

22 had a chance to think about the new language
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1 that you presented this morning?

2 MR. WOLF: I heard it. I read it. 

3 I liked your intention. I don't fully

4 understand it. I would like to see it. I

5 wish it was a handout.

6 MS. HEINZE: Sorry about that.

7 MR. WOLF: I'm sorry about that. 

8 MS. HEINZE: I know there are some

9 people in the audience who have it on their

10 computers now.

11 MR. WOLF: Right.

12 MS. HEINZE: Perhaps you could ask

13 one of them for it.

14 MR. WOLF: I will look --

15 MS. HEINZE: It would be great if

16 you could think about it.

17 MR. WOLF: I will look at it and

18 I'll be here tomorrow.

19 MS. HEINZE: Thank you.

20 MR. WOLF: Thank you.

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

22 MR. WOLF: Thank you all.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Richard

2 Holt, Stephen Colbert, Walt Talarek.

3 MR. HOLT: Good afternoon and

4 thank you for the chance to come and speak

5 today. My comments are a bit of a follow-on

6 to what I just heard, especially talking about

7 significant and insignificant levels and also

8 a number of comments I've heard today about

9 list 4 and being incomplete and the problems

10 that creates.

11 I think I've got a real world

12 example to talk about. Beginning, my name is

13 Rick Holt. I'm here on behalf of the DuPont

14 Company. My comments today, and those of my

15 colleague to follow, are intended to

16 respectfully ask the Board to include the

17 review and hopefully approval of two key

18 inerts on the agenda in time for your next

19 meeting in the fall. 

20 These inerts are tetramethyldecyne

21 diol, or TMDD, and ethylene glycol. Both are

22 extremely low-level antifoam agents that are
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1 essential components of the Kocide copper

2 formulation. Although we at DuPont looked, we

3 were unable to find any nonsynthetic

4 replacements for it.

5 Kocide, as I'm sure many of you

6 know, is the low use-rate copper fungicide and

7 it has been a staple in organic production for

8 many, many years. Unfortunately, it's been

9 unavailable for the last couple of growing

10 seasons while awaiting approval by the Board

11 of these two inerts, both of which were caught

12 in this catch-22 that we've been talking about

13 with EPA relative to list 4. 

14 Both inerts were, in fact,

15 approved by EPA have tolerance exemptions and

16 would have been included in the list 4 if, in

17 fact, list 4 had ever been updated which, as

18 we know, never occurred.

19 As described in the procedural

20 rules for this Board, the DuPont company did

21 prepare and submit petitions for both inerts

22 in 2008. I believe the crop committee
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1 received the technical views completed last

2 year. Both inerts were, it was my

3 understanding, originally intended for a

4 review at this meeting but were superseded by

5 other issues on the agenda.

6 If time had allowed, I would spend

7 some time covering the toxicity and the fate

8 aspects of these ingredients nor is this the

9 venue for doing that. However, in your

10 deliberations in the fall if, in fact, you do

11 review this, which I hope you do, I would

12 kindly ask that you factor in this one

13 important factor when you do that. 

14 I'm showing on this slide here

15 both of these inerts are in the Kocide

16 formulation at extremely low levels. They are

17 there at a 10th of a percent of the Kocide

18 formula which gives you an inert rate of .001

19 pound per acre. That translates to .45 grams

20 per acre if you look at it on an in-use

21 example.

22 If you were to assume no
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1 degradation, or very little degradation, you

2 would be hard-pressed to actually find any of

3 this material in the environment. I'm

4 personally a very visual person so we have a

5 next slide; this sort of puts it into

6 perspective. 

7 You've got two vials here, one on

8 the left there with sand and the other with

9 colored water both at a half a gram. You can

10 imagine spreading this material over an acre

11 of land. You're looking at what I interpret

12 as talking about insignificant levels and

13 that's what we're looking at here. 

14 I would ask in any review that

15 when you're looking at risk that you factor in

16 your calculus the real world exposure that

17 we're talking about here. We're not talking

18 about very high levels.

19 To conclude my presentation, I

20 also have a number of, if I could, letters of

21 support we received from our growers. This

22 first one is from California, Oxnard, stating
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1 that "we need Kocide available for organic

2 production because it has the lowest rate of

3 copper and is the most environmentally

4 friendly copper choice on the market."

5 This is from Tehema up the road

6 here. It says "without Kocide available our

7 yields would go down due to less packaging

8 control and less resistance to management." 

9 The third from the Florida Fruit and Vegetable

10 Association down with Dan Botts and that crew

11 stating that "FFVA strongly endorses the

12 organic registration and reinstatement of

13 preservation efforts and placement of Kocide

14 back onto the OMRI list of approved products."

15 Finally, the last from Frank's

16 Crop Watch stating that "Kocide products offer

17 organic growers superior copper fungicide in

18 comparison to the available alternatives."

19 With that, I would like to say

20 thank you for the opportunity to talk and,

21 again, restate my plea that at the next

22 meeting in the fall that you take on the
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1 review of these and hopefully approve at least

2 two inerts. Thank you.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

4 questions? Thank you.

5 Stephen Colbert, Walt Talarek and

6 Cam Wilson.

7 MR. COLBERT: First off, I would

8 like to thank the Board for commenting on the

9 Colbert report and I have a lot of questions

10 for you. And it is Colbert, it's not Colbert. 

11 I'm the product development representative for

12 DuPont here in Northern California so I do a

13 lot of the testing and working with growers

14 and customers with our products.

15 Of course, Kocide is a very large

16 product for us. Copper fungicides are an

17 essential part of many programs for disease

18 control. As Rick previously mentioned, Kocide

19 was standard for many years for organic

20 production with some of our older products. 

21 I would like to get into what benefit it is to

22 your growers to have Kocide on the approved
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1 list.

2 Go ahead and we'll go to the first

3 slide there. The Kocide brand has been around

4 for quite a long time. It's the market leader

5 in the United States. It is the most

6 available product for growers to use of a

7 copper hydroxide or copper fungicide.

8 DuPont is committed to

9 environmental stewardship. We do have

10 technical assistance. We do awards for

11 various programs. We offer quality products

12 that are very, very high standards. As it

13 shows there, we do use recycled copper. We no

14 longer mine it. At one time, Kocide was

15 Kennecott Corporation, Kennecott Mines. That

16 is no longer the case.

17 It does meet the highest standards

18 for purity, for world organizations as well as

19 for the United States. We pioneered the

20 process of using less and less copper per

21 acre.

22 There was vision within the
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1 company at one time that said we are going to

2 run into regulatory environment in the near

3 future and cost that is going to mean we have

4 to use less copper which provides an

5 environmental benefit as well. We do market

6 now products that you can use at much lower

7 copper use rates than you could at one time. 

8 Therefore, the load in the environment is

9 reduced.

10 Go ahead. A little bit of

11 background on how copper works. Copper itself

12 is a metal. You could throw all the copper

13 wire you want at a disease and it wouldn't do

14 anything. It has to be formulated in such a

15 process that it can be released as an ion in

16 water. You get the copper ion. That is what

17 does all the work. For most formulations

18 that's going to be in the low parts, one part

19 per million, five parts per million in the

20 water.

21 At any rate, the way to get around the

22 fact that you could only get so much copper
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1 into the water as a bioavailable or active ion

2 was to develop new patented formulations that

3 included certain ingredients that allowed you

4 to take that to more like 100 parts per

5 million. Therefore, you would have more

6 active copper. You could do more disease

7 control and use less total copper.

8 This has been pushed and pushed

9 and pushed over the years and now we have

10 Kocide 3000. You're actually using, let's

11 say, for example, in grapes where you would

12 have used two pounds of our older formulations

13 at a 50 percent product, 50 percent copper,

14 you would now use one pound that's 30 percent

15 copper. So you are using 25, 30 percent of

16 the total metallic copper that you want to

17 use.

18 The other thing is that we provide

19 the best formulations out there, the lowest

20 foaming, the best mixing, the best

21 sprayability. That's why we use the antifoam

22 agents in there is, in the manufacturing use
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1 of the product you don't want to have this

2 much foam in your tank when you're spraying. 

3 It makes it impossible to spray.

4 Again, we would like to be

5 organically certified. We strive to be there. 

6 We've been working on this for a couple of

7 years now and would really appreciate your

8 considering us and getting us onto the next

9 meeting's agenda. Thank you very much.

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay.

11 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you for your

12 comment. Do you guys have a label approved by

13 EPA with these inerts in the Kocide product?

14 MR. COLBERT: The current product

15 is labeled, and has been out for a few years

16 and it includes these inerts which were

17 reviewed from the one list.

18 MR. FELDMAN: So this is a basic

19 section 3 registration, it's standard

20 registration?

21 MR. COLBERT: Right. It's done

22 and it's marketed worldwide and in a few years
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1 in the United States as well.

2 MR. FELDMAN: Right. Thank you.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

4 Okay. I think, in the essence of time, we

5 still have about a third of the list to go,

6 but we'll put this, maybe -- but we will try

7 to continue to restrict our questions but I'm

8 going to ask a little help from yourselves

9 also. Any of you that would like to be held

10 to a three-minute minimum tell us when you

11 come up and we'll set that clock. That's is

12 yours. No one is expected to do that.

13 MR. TALAREK: Good afternoon. My

14 name is Walt Talarek. I'm here today

15 representing W. Neudorff GmbH KG, or otherwise

16 the Neudorff Company.

17 MR. SMILLIE: You're the guy.

18 MR. TALAREK: I must be.

19 MR. SMILLIE: All those petitions.

20 MR. TALAREK: Right. There's a

21 lot of science that we submitted to you in

22 rebuttal of the Steptoe and Johnson petition
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1 to delist. I'm here primarily to encourage

2 you to review the science and our evaluation

3 of the science.

4 In any event, Neudorff is a small

5 150-year-old company. It's family-owned,

6 based in Emmerthal, Germany. The company is

7 dedicated to providing reduced-risk pesticides

8 such as those containing ferric phosphate as

9 well as biopesticides.

10 Neudorff is a producer and

11 registrant of a slug bait containing ferric

12 phosphate as the sole active ingredient. As

13 you know, or may know, ferric phosphate occurs

14 naturally in the environment. However,

15 because of its lack of availability large

16 quantities are produced for Neudorff and for

17 its use in slug and snail bait.

18 In the US, as you guys know,

19 ferric phosphate is currently allowed by the

20 USDA at the regulation at 7 CFR Section

21 205.601(h). In other words, it's listed on

22 the National List. I am here today to
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1 encourage you to continue the listing of

2 ferric phosphate as a molluscicide on the

3 National List.

4 Throughout the world to date

5 ferric phosphate's uses as a molluscicide for

6 organic production has been approved by the

7 Codex Alimentarius Commission, IFOAM, and the

8 European Commission. Currently, Neudorff slug

9 and snail bait is registered for organic

10 production in the US by the US EPA as well as

11 throughout the EC countries.

12 In the US, in our slug bait, I can

13 tell you that all the inert ingredients are on

14 EPA's list 4. Furthermore, the OMRI has

15 certified Neudorff slug and snail bait for

16 organic production here in the US

17 In Europe, Neudorff slug bait

18 containing ferric phosphate has replaced

19 metaldehyde slug baits for organic production. 

20 That occurred in approximately 2006. Neudorff

21 believes that ferric phosphate continues to

22 meet the OFPA criteria for listing as a
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1 substance for organic production. 

2 We did submit, as you know, to the

3 docket a substantial list of comments this

4 March. Also, we submitted to the docket our

5 response to the Neudorff petition which we

6 submitted in hard copy in January of this year

7 to the Board.

8 Ferric phosphate is the only

9 active ingredient in Neudorff slug and snail

10 bait. We have submitted scientific studies

11 supporting that statement to the docket. And

12 actually, it's appended to our response to the

13 Steptoe petition.

14 Ferric phosphate by itself is

15 active as an ingested poison for mollusks. 

16 However, because it needs to be ingested for

17 activity, carriers such as common foodstuffs

18 and dispersants are used to encourage slugs

19 and snails to eat the bait and to assist with

20 the bait's digestion and absorption in the

21 slug's gut. 

22 Ferric phosphate does not react
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1 with EDTA during the manufacture of Neudorff's

2 slug and snail bait to form iron EDTA as an

3 active ingredient. I think that is a key

4 issue for you. I saw that in the

5 recommendation. Again, we have submitted

6 documentation supporting that statement and we

7 encourage you to review the science behind

8 that statement.

9 Ferric phosphate, I say this

10 emphatically, has no unacceptable toxic

11 effects on earthworms. Again, we submitted

12 the scientific documentation supporting that

13 statement. As a matter of fact, the study

14 submitted by Steptoe has been critiqued. 

15 If you look at the full 14 days

16 worth of study, you'll see that statement I

17 just made that there are no unacceptable toxic

18 effects on earthworms is correct unlike the

19 statement based on the truncated 10-day

20 comment by Steptoe. Thank you.

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

22 Joe.
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1 MR. SMILLIE: First of all, let me

2 apologize for my little outburst. It was not

3 meant as a disparagement whatsoever but that

4 was the most voluminous amount of scientific

5 testimony that I have ever had the occasion to

6 have to read through. Certainly, you have

7 definitely made your case. Again, I

8 apologize. 

9 When we first got to the

10 regulations I thought there was a mistake

11 because this ferric phosphate thing kept

12 coming up again. I said, "What is going on?" 

13 I realize that each of those are a separate

14 submission and it was truly voluminous. I

15 think it was a record.

16 MR. TALAREK: I apologize because

17 the www.regulations.gov website only accepts

18 10 megabytes worth of data in a comment. Now,

19 some of these studies run 60, 70 pages long so

20 they had to be divided up into three or four

21 parts. I apologize for that. My daughter did

22 help out so it wasn't that much of a burden.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay, did

2 you have a question?

3 MR. FELDMAN: You say on page 2

4 that ferric phosphate, when used, does not

5 cause unreasonable adverse impacts on humans

6 or the environment. As you know, that's not

7 the Organic Food Production Act standard for

8 safety so I'm wondering what is reasonable or

9 what is unreasonable in this context?

10 MR. TALAREK: I probably took that

11 from my EPA jargon.

12 MR. FELDMAN: Exactly.

13 MR. TALAREK: Normally, I do EPA

14 registrations.

15 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. I was

16 wondering about that.

17 MR. TALAREK: Okay. Basically, if

18 you look at the tox database for ferric

19 phosphate you see that the acute tox is

20 toxicity level 4 for the acutes, subchronics

21 and chronics. There are no adverse affects.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. So you think
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1 it exceeds the standard required.

2 MR. TALAREK: Yes. Absolutely. 

3 Thank you.

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

5 Okay. Cam Wilson. Then, on the suggestion of

6 the speaker earlier today, since that is the

7 last one listed here for this subject, I think

8 then we will take a break approaching the

9 5:00. After that will be Lyle Wong and Leslie

10 Zuck.

11 MR. WILSON: Thank you, NOSB. 

12 Walt is responsible for the submission so

13 don't shoot the messenger. I will continue

14 where Walt left off on the discussion about

15 ferric phosphate to keep it on the National

16 List and to refute some of the claims that

17 were made by Steptoe.

18 My name is Cam Wilson. I'm the

19 Chief Technical Officer for Neudorff North

20 America and I'm obviously here to defend

21 ferric phosphate and keep it on the National

22 List and let me to tell you the reasons why.
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1 First and foremost, the need. 

2 Organic growers, as many people have spoken

3 earlier, need an organic slug bait, and ferric

4 phosphate satisfies that need. Strawberry

5 growers, artichoke growers, hops growers,

6 citrus growers, in this area in particular,

7 need an organic slug bait.

8 Also, and many of you may not be

9 aware of this, but those of you from the east

10 that are involved in the dairy industry there

11 is a vector for liver fluke and it's a snail.

12 Currently organic dairy farmers do

13 not have control for that snail outside of

14 Sluggo, which is the commercial name for the

15 product, the ferric phosphate bait. Not only

16 is it crop growers but it's also dairy farmers

17 require something like this product.

18 The alternate methods, such as

19 copper banding and hand picking, are not

20 practical. I can't speak as a grower but I

21 think the growers here if they were told to

22 speak on that issue would become very
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1 passionate about it. In the past ducks were

2 recommended and we all know the issue of ducks

3 in organic production. It's just really not

4 practical, once more.

5 Earlier a speaker mentioned, the

6 speaker for Wild Farm Alliance, and it was

7 very interesting because we are currently

8 working on a project with the US Army in

9 Hawaii that is reforesting wild plants and

10 they have a problem with a slug and they want

11 an organic product. So without Sluggo that

12 project would not go forward.

13 Just as a reminder, five years ago

14 I was here, or in D.C., and petitioned to put

15 ferric phosphate on the National List. As a

16 result of the TAP review the NOSB voted 10 to

17 zero to add ferric phosphate to the National

18 List. No one voted against putting ferric

19 phosphate on the National List. 

20 I believe that still stands true

21 today, that the product has minimal impact on

22 humans and the environment, has no synthetic
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1 substances available for mollusk control at

2 the moment and the material is compatible with

3 organic production practices.

4 The product is recognized, as Walt

5 mentioned, by IFOAM as an active in organic

6 production and by the European Commission. 

7 Throughout the world, everywhere where

8 Neudorff, our company, has registered our slug

9 bait, ferric phosphate is recognized as the

10 active ingredient.

11 In total, and it is a list that

12 has been provided to you on that website,

13 approximately 22 countries have registered the

14 Neudorff slug and snail bait with the active

15 ingredient ferric phosphate.

16 I want to talk now about the

17 Steptoe petition. Many of you may not be

18 aware of this but that was competitor-based. 

19 Where that came from, Steptoe, was from a

20 competitor of the ferric phosphate baits so

21 that's the origin of the petition to remove.

22 As far as I understand, no one in the organic
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1 community has petitioned to remove ferric

2 phosphate from the National List.

3 I'm going to go right to the

4 conclusion because I think it summarizes

5 things nicely. Just as a reminder, EDTA is a

6 list 4 inert. All the inerts in the Neudorff

7 slug and snail bait are list 4 and are

8 acceptable by the NOP standards as of today.

9 In summary, organic farmers need

10 an effective slug and snail bait. We have

11 proven with all the submission in every

12 country in the world that ferric phosphate is

13 the active ingredient in the Neudorff bait.

14 As I mentioned, all the inerts are

15 on the August 2004 list 4. As recent as

16 January 2010, the EPA staff approved the

17 Neudorff label with the NOP and OMRI

18 confirming that the product is NOP compliant. 

19 The active ingredient is ferric phosphate.

20 Just to repeat what Walt said, ferric

21 phosphate slug and snail baits are not harmful

22 to earthworms, as some may have led you to
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1 believe.

2 Based on the facts I have provided

3 I ask you to keep ferric phosphate on the

4 National List. Any questions?

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay.

6 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you for your

7 comment. Are you able, willing, or whatever

8 to disclose the inert ingredients?

9 MR. WILSON: It has been provided

10 to you.

11 MR. FELDMAN: It's provided to the

12 Board?

13 MR. WILSON: Yes. In fact, it was

14 provided in the Steptoe petition to remove it.

15 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. So beyond the

16 EDTA and the EDDS there are other inert

17 ingredients?

18 MR. WILSON: Flour and sugar.

19 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. WILSON: Any other questions?

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No, I

22 think that's it.
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1 MR. WILSON: Thank you.

2 MR. TALAREK: There no EDDS in the

3 US as slug bait. That is an alternative

4 substance that is used elsewhere in the world,

5 as a substitute for EDTA.

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

7 Okay. We're going to take a break. Next up

8 will be Lyle Wong, Leslie Zuck. Does

9 Katherine win the award for the first one to

10 give up her space in the case of time? Thank

11 you, Katherine. Followed by Tom Hutcheson. 

12 Again, let's go 10 after the hour on that

13 clock. And Board members, please try to be

14 prompt.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 4:59 p.m. and

17 resumed at 5:11 p.m.)

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: First up

19 is Lyle Wong, Leslie Zuck, and Tom Hutcheson.

20 Mr. Wong, we needed eight seated

21 and as soon as we have that, you can begin. 

22 Go ahead, sir.
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1 MR. WONG: Members of the Board,

2 my name is Lyle Wong. I am head of the Plant

3 Industry Division of the Hawaii Department of

4 Agriculture.

5 The Hawaii Department of

6 Agriculture recently submitted a petition to

7 USDA National Organic Program.

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Excuse me. 

9 Could people please take conversations

10 outside? We're back in session. Could

11 someone please close that door also so we can

12 hold the noise down? Thank you.

13 MR. WONG: The Hawaii Department

14 of Ag recently submitted a petition to USDA

15 National Organic Program requesting the

16 listing of formic acid as an approved

17 substance for organic handling and processing.

18 This petition was submitted as a

19 result of the recent introduction of the

20 varroa mite into Hawaii and the need for an

21 effective chemical control for this pest for

22 the survival of organic honey production in
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1 the State of Hawaii.

2 This is the first submittal of a

3 petition by the Hawaii Department of Ag for a

4 listing of a substance as organic. USDA NOP

5 has completed its preliminary review of the

6 document for completeness and we are hopeful

7 that the document and our request for a

8 listing can now proceed through the vetting

9 process established by the National Organic

10 Program.

11 From a discussion with USDA, we

12 understand that the process could take

13 possibly 18 to 24 months to complete, assuming

14 all goes well for a determination. As author

15 of the petition, I'm hopeful that a

16 determination will be positive for listing at

17 the earliest possible date.

18 To my comments I've attached a

19 letter from Philip Grad, an organic beekeeper

20 in Hawaii to the Honorable Dennis Cardoza,

21 Chairman of the US House Committee on

22 Agriculture, seeking his assistance to have a
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1 temporary but immediately ruling that would

2 permit US beekeepers to control parasitic

3 mites, including the varroa mite, with formic

4 acid without jeopardizing their honey organic

5 certification.

6 This thoughtful letter from an

7 organic beekeeper in Hawaii goes on to state

8 that under the US/Canadian Organic Equivalency

9 Agreement, Canadian beekeepers using formic

10 acid can export their honey to the United

11 States and label and sell it as organic using

12 either the Canadian or US organic seal. 

13 However, US honey producers using formic acid

14 are not permitted to label their honey as

15 organic.

16 He adds further that other

17 organizations and countries, such as the

18 European Union and New Zealand, also permit

19 the use of formic acid in the production of

20 organic honey.

21 The Hawaii Department of Ag

22 strongly supports this request for a temporary
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1 ruling to allow the use of formic acid for

2 mite control in the United States, which would

3 allow the time needed by the National Organic

4 Standards Board to develop a permanent

5 position regarding position without

6 disadvantaging US beekeepers.

7 For beekeepers in Hawaii, a delay

8 in ruling of two years will, in all

9 likelihood, see the collapse of the organic

10 honey production in Hawaii to the varroa mite

11 and to the absence of a control method that

12 other producers have the privilege of using as

13 organic not only in their producing area but

14 also for distribution of product into the

15 United States under an international

16 agreement.

17 This would be a disaster not only

18 for the producers in Hawaii, which are all

19 small rural families, but for Hawaii

20 agriculture as well. From worldwide

21 experience with the varroa mite, Hawaii can

22 expect the loss of the vast majority of its
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1 many thousands of feral hives that supply bees

2 with crop pollination throughout the Hawaiian

3 Islands.

4 The Hawaii Depart of Ag and

5 growers have been struggling with this reality

6 for the past two years. It is likely that a

7 number of small traditional beekeepers will

8 step up production of managed hives with

9 pesticide treatment to control the varroa mite

10 for pollination services.

11 The reality is, however, that the

12 only source of bees in Hawaii in any

13 significant numbers at this time is through

14 the organic honey producers, by far the

15 largest beekeepers in the state.

16 The largest organic beekeeper in

17 Hawaii is, in all likelihood, the largest

18 organic honey producer in the United States. 

19 The loss of this sector of the industry to the

20 varroa mite in Hawaii in the absence of an

21 effective control would deprive the US market

22 of certified honey previously available from
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1 major sources in Hawaii and will vastly

2 complicate how Hawaii is to transition into a

3 system of organic production entirely

4 dependent on managed hives throughout the

5 Hawaiian chain, a very serious concern and

6 problem for the State of Hawaii and the Hawaii

7 Department of Ag.

8 Organic honey production is an

9 important industry in Hawaii and an essential

10 industry more so than ever to Hawaii at this

11 point in time. I am not sufficiently familiar

12 with organic -- the national organic standards

13 to say whether the law provides for what is

14 being requested but as Chief of the Pesticides

15 Branch as well, I know that the provisions are

16 available under the Federal Insecticide

17 Fungicide Act to address true emergencies. 

18 The risk-based standard of FIFRA provides for

19 --

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Wrap it up

21 please.

22 MR. WONG: -- yes -- emergency
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1 exemptions which are, hopefully, likewise

2 available through a national organic standard.

3 Thank you.

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

5 questions? Tina?

6 SECRETARY ELLOR: Don't growl at

7 me, Dan.

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: It wasn't

9 a growl.

10 SECRETARY ELLOR: I have a

11 question more for the program. And we talked

12 about this a little bit this morning and with

13 Katrina.

14 Is there an option within the rule

15 that would allow for an emergency approval?

16 MR. WONG: Well, there is a

17 temporary variance but it is not relevant for

18 materials. There is emergency pest and

19 disease treatment under I think it is 671,

20 which allows the use of a prohibited substance

21 under an emergency basis. But the products

22 that are treated cannot be sold as organic. 
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1 But you don't lose the certification but you

2 would lose the market.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay?

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'll get this by

5 the end of the meeting. Thank you.

6 Maybe this is a question for the

7 program in terms of certification of organic

8 honey production, where is that? Where do we

9 find that? And is that just -- I'm -- I mean

10 there are two elements to this. Obviously one

11 is the care of the hives, the management of

12 the hives.

13 But there's also issues around

14 foraging and in conventional fields and

15 conventional areas where there are flowering

16 plants and whatever. So how has the program

17 dealt with this, the labeling of organic

18 honey?

19 MR. McEVOY: Well, it is a very

20 interesting dilemma because there are not

21 specific standards on organic honey

22 production.
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1 So there is an NOSB recommendation

2 on apiculture. But if you look in the

3 National Organic Program regulations, there's

4 nothing specific to bee production.

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: So when I go to

6 my co-op and I see organic honey with the USDA

7 seal --

8 MR. McEVOY: It is certified by an

9 accredited certifier. And it is certified

10 under their best work to verify that it meets

11 the national organic standards. So I'm not

12 familiar with exactly what the certifiers are

13 doing. But these are accredited certifiers

14 that are following the national organic

15 standards.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Maybe you can

17 help with this. Is this product registered by

18 EPA?

19 MR. WONG: Yes, it is. Formic

20 acid is registered.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: What is the

22 product name that --
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1 MR. WONG: It's Mite-Away. There

2 is a Mite-Away 2 that has been around for

3 quite a while but we can't use it in Hawaii

4 because of temperature restrictions. So to 

5 get formic acid for our beekeepers, our

6 traditional beekeepers, we have registered a

7 24C that has no temperature upper limit and a

8 shorter exposure period.

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: So it is a

10 special local needs permit just in Hawaii and

11 other states?

12 MR. WONG: Yes. Other states are

13 going to get registrations for a section --

14 for 24C and it is probably going to get a

15 Section 3, too.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. And do we

17 know the inert ingredients in the product?

18 MR. WONG: That we have provided

19 to USDA through the -- but it has confidential

20 business information. There's nothing

21 particular unusual about the inerts.

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. So the
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1 dilemma is we don't really, as a Board, have

2 a standard for organic production. The

3 implication here is we are being asked to

4 allow a material that would presumably be used

5 -- knowingly be used to put a label on a

6 product for which we don't have a process that

7 we have approved.

8 So it sort of puts us in a bind, I

9 think, as a Board, doesn't it, to essentially

10 imply approval of a label, and presumably a

11 process for management of hives, that we

12 haven't really approved or at least the

13 materials haven't been approved.

14 MR. McEVOY: Well, you have

15 recommendations that you have approved. You

16 have final recommendations on apiculture. And

17 so a petition for something that is specific

18 to apiculture could be a relevant thing for

19 you to consider. I don't see that as a

20 conflict.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay.

22 MR. McEVOY: You already have
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1 recommendations. And it complements the

2 recommendation or it could complement the

3 recommendation.

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. So just so

5 folk know, what we have here is a situation of

6 a chemical that has not been registered by

7 EPA.

8 MR. WONG: No.

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: The registrant is

10 getting what is called a 24C registration,

11 which is a Special Local Need permit.

12 MR. WONG: No, it is registered.

13 MEMBER FELDMAN: I thought you

14 said it was pending, a Section 3.

15 MR. WONG: No, no, no.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'm sorry.

17 MR. WONG: Formic acid is

18 registered as a mitacide by US EPA, Mite-Away

19 2.

20 And what we did was we issued a

21 24C registration to provide for the use of

22 formic acid under local conditions, which is
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1 the temperature regimes that we have in

2 Hawaii. So that formic acid end-use product

3 is under a 24C specifically for use in Hawaii.

4 But formic acid is approved by US

5 EPA for varroa mite control throughout the

6 United States.

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: I don't want to

8 drag this out but what makes it special in

9 Hawaii then? Why can't you just go with the

10 regular Section 3?

11 MR. WONG: Because we can't be

12 compliant with the label requirements for not

13 exceeding 82 degrees Fahrenheit over a 21-day

14 period.

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: I see. Okay. 

16 Thank you.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Have you

18 submitted a petition for this to the program?

19 MR. WONG: Yes. And EPA -- I mean

20 USDA has it. And they are looking at it for

21 completeness right now. And I guess it will

22 come to the Board.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay.

2 Katrina?

3 MEMBER HEINZE: This is actually a

4 question for you, Dan. Once we get that, this

5 is a livestock material, right? Because it's

6 used for pest management on the bees?

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: It's on

8 the bees themselves I would think.

9 MEMBER HEINZE: As opposed to a

10 handling material?

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: I would

12 think so, yes.

13 MR. WONG: Correct.

14 MEMBER HEINZE: Okay. I just

15 wanted to clarify. Little fuzzy for me.

16 MR. WONG: Sucrose esters are

17 approved for varroa mite control. And so

18 that's elicited.

19 And the formic acid is -- when you

20 put it in the hive, it's there as an acid

21 vapor from a pad, the delivery system. And

22 bees happen to be very tolerant of formic
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1 acid, possibly because it's in the stinger. 

2 And it's a natural product of honey, too,

3 formic acid.

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any other

5 questions?

6 MS. FRANCES: Just a comment. 

7 Sucrose octanoate esters was looked at both in

8 livestock and crops because the bees are in

9 the field. That was looked at in crops, too,

10 just so that it was kind of covering the

11 bases.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay.

13 MEMBER FELDMAN: So can I ask

14 Miles another question? If they use the

15 special provision, they couldn't sell the crop

16 as organic but they could return to organic

17 production immediately?

18 MR. McEVOY: You're talking about

19 671?

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: 671.

21 MR. McEVOY: I'd have to read 671

22 and so I can get you that answer.
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1 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay.

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. I

3 think this Board would need to work through

4 the petition process. You've done that. As

5 soon as it comes to us from the program, the

6 other issues I would suggest you continue to

7 work with the program on whether there is any

8 kind of a "variance" and proceed from there. 

9 And hopefully we'll be able to come to some

10 conclusion.

11 MR. WONG: Thank you.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. Is

13 Leslie not here? Okay. Thank you, Leslie.

14 Tom Hutcheson, Patti Bursten15 Deutch, and Pat Kane. Not here.

16 Jake Lewin? Proceed.

17 MR. HUTCHESON: Good afternoon,

18 I'm Tom Hutcheson.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. Oh,

20 I'm sorry. Pat Kane.

21 MR. HUTCHESON: Okay. Good

22 afternoon. I'm Tom Hutcheson, Regulatory
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1 Analyst for the Organic Trade Association. 

2 OTA, with its democratically-elected board is

3 the membership business association for

4 organic agricultural products in North

5 American. We thank NOSB for the opportunity

6 to provide comment. Please refer to our

7 written comments on enclosed operations,

8 animal healthcare products, and

9 nanotechnology, as well as fuller discussions

10 of the items I'll cover here.

11 First on Sunset items, OTA

12 supports the recommendation for all items

13 identified for continued use at this meeting. 

14 Unfortunately, items in the documents NOSB has

15 prepared are not completely consistent with

16 items published in the two Federal Register

17 notices.

18 And the three opportunities for

19 comment have caused some anxiety in the trade

20 unnecessarily and we hope NOP and NOSB can

21 collaborate more closely in the future to

22 avoid confusion. 
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1 On List 4 inerts, OTA does not

2 support the recommendation of the Crops

3 Committee, particularly the suggestion that

4 NOSB needs to review all inert ingredient

5 components used in current NOP-complaint

6 pesticide formulations. This recommendation

7 would result in a significant loss of tools

8 available to organic growers.

9 NOSB is not a smaller version of

10 EPA for reviewing individual inerts. This

11 would result in a large and unnecessary burden

12 on NOSB with over 250 currently approved

13 unique inerts. NOSB should work with NOP and

14 existing technical advisors such as OMRI in

15 adjusting to the changed regulatory

16 environment rather than trying to stand in for

17 EPA.

18 On methionine, OTA supports the

19 recommendation with the following adjustments. 

20 OTA suggests that the reduction of the allowed

21 amount by two pounds per ton applied to layers

22 also be applied to pullets, which are not
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1 currently treated separately although as

2 growing chickens, they have higher nutrient

3 needs and broilers.

4 Broilers, which under the current

5 proposal could receive five instead of four

6 pounds per ton, together with pullets, should

7 be able to receive three pounds per ton of

8 synthetic methionine per ton instead of two.

9 On stocking rates, OTA requests

10 that NOSB use the data being gathered by NOP

11 as part of the US/Canadian Equivalents

12 Agreement and not take issue on this action

13 before considering that data.

14 Also, OTA fully supports Deputy

15 Administrator McEvoy's request that NOSB

16 recommend clarification that animal living

17 conditions standards apply throughout the

18 certification chain until the time of

19 slaughter.

20 On definitions of materials and

21 classification, the revised clarification of

22 chemical change is good and helpful but should
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1 apply only to product to be used in producing

2 a product for human or animal consumption, not

3 to crop or livestock production inputs.

4 We appreciate the clarification of

5 the definition of non-agricultural and agree

6 that an agricultural product should remain

7 agricultural no matter how it is processed or

8 what it is combined with. But the new

9 definition is inconsistent with the range of

10 products that can be and are currently being

11 certified under NOP.

12 The current definition of crop as

13 a plant or part of a plant falls short as

14 mushrooms and kelp, for example, are not

15 technically plants.

16 OTA also supports yeast being

17 agricultural. Any living organism that can be

18 cultivated or cultured by humans that is

19 produced from naturally-occurring biological

20 processes can potentially be certifiable as

21 organic and be agricultural.

22 Finally, 605 should be revised to
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1 require sourcing of commercially available

2 organic ingredients.

3 For classification, we need

4 separate review sheets for crop, livestock,

5 and handling inputs with different questions

6 posed as applicable. Also non-organic

7 agricultural ingredients should be allowed to

8 be included as feed supplements or minor

9 ingredients in food subject to commercial

10 unavailability.

11 On inerts in gases, OTA supports

12 the recommendation as written.

13 On Sunset Review, OTA supports

14 Option 2B, which we feel does not challenge

15 the integrity of NOSB's review program. OTA

16 expects NOSB to review materials as fully as

17 the Board decides is necessary. Nonetheless,

18 initial NOSB review and subsequent votes

19 should indicate that without new information

20 either from periodic review or public comment,

21 the original reviews and decisions were

22 reasonable.
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1 Thank you.

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

3 Joe?

4 MEMBER SMILLIE: Well, just one

5 quick comment and that's I really appreciate

6 OTA breaking up their submissions to the

7 nopregulations.gov as far as subject titles

8 go. And I urge future petitioners who talk on

9 multiple issues to break them up so that they

10 are all clearly available for review. So I

11 appreciate that and I appreciate all of your

12 comments.

13 MR. HUTCHESON: Thank you.

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

15 Patti, then Pat, then Jake.

16 MS. BURSTEN-DEUTCH: I could

17 actually use a soap box. Here we go.

18 Hi, everybody. I'm Patti Bursten19 Deutch of Organic Education Solutions and

20 Organic Concepts. I live on a certified

21 organic dairy farm in southwestern Wisconsin. 

22 And I've been a full-time independent organic
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1 inspector since 1997.

2 In these many years, I've had the

3 opportunity to inspect thousands of farms,

4 facilities, and livestock operations. And

5 during this time, it has become increasingly

6 clear that there is a void in the long supply

7 chain from producers to consumers.

8 This void creates an environment

9 for some operations to game the system,

10 creating an uneven playing field and providing

11 cause for skepticism.

12 Since the inception of the NOP,

13 the activities of many brokers, traders, and

14 distributors have been considered to be

15 excluded under 205.101(b). This was also the

16 case in many pre-NOP private organic standards

17 which served to provide a starting point for

18 the current system.

19 Currently there are gaps in

20 recordkeeping, procedures, and oversight of

21 the activities of some uncertified brokers,

22 traders, and distributors who deal in organic
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1 goods that can allow compromising activities

2 to occur.

3 Chief among these activities is

4 non-organic goods being sold with an organic

5 claim using otherwise valid organic producer

6 certificates to represent more goods than were

7 produced or purchased or to represent goods

8 that were never purchased at all. This

9 appears to be most prominent in organic

10 commodities such as grains, soybeans, and hay

11 and is not limited to a particular geographic

12 area of the United States.

13 I understand that in the world of

14 organic many consider fraud to be the F word. 

15 And as such, they don't really want to hear

16 this word spoken out loud. So instead I think

17 we could view this as the opportunity as in

18 the opportunity to expand enforcement of the

19 NOP under the existing regulation.

20 The opportunity exists because the

21 language is already in the regulation to

22 provide ample oversight of many activities
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1 currently conducted without required organic

2 certification and enforcement activity and

3 without even the recordkeeping provisions

4 required for exempt operations under

5 205.101(c).

6 There is no need to change the

7 regulation in order to expand enforcement. So

8 in the interest of time, I'm going to spare

9 you reading the section of the regulation. 

10 But I'd like to note that 205.101(b) provides

11 for the following:

12 Any organically-produced products

13 are exempt if they are one, packaged or

14 otherwise enclosed in a container prior to

15 being received or acquired by the operation,

16 and two, remain in the same package or

17 container and are not otherwise processed

18 while in the control of the handling

19 operation.

20 The opportunity presented here is

21 that while this language supports the

22 continued allowance of the exclusion of
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1 brokers, traders, and distributors of finished

2 packaged goods, whether wholesale ingredients

3 or retail products, it does not support

4 continued exclusion of bulk agricultural

5 commodities such as grains, soybeans, or hay.

6 These are not generally packaged

7 or enclosed in a container prior to being

8 received by the broker, trader, or

9 distributor. And if they are, they may not

10 remain in that container for the duration of

11 the handler's activity.

12 Hay is not packaged or enclosed

13 and so clearly does not need the provisions of

14 205.101(b). Bulk soybeans and grains are

15 typically received by brokers, traders, or

16 distributors in one container such as a

17 railcar and transferred to another container. 

18 And so they also do not meet the provisions of

19 205.101(b).

20 Several other commodities and

21 goods can be sold, brokered, and traded in a

22 similar fashion. And as it was just pointed
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1 out to me, this issue can also really extend

2 to brokers of livestock as well.

3 I'm here to ask that the NOSB

4 recommend that guidance be issued to clearly

5 articulate the limitations of 205.101(b) and

6 the need for handling operations involved in

7 the activities described above to seek organic

8 certification or risk appropriate enforcement

9 activity.

10 I request that the NOSB send the

11 message that handling operations currently

12 engaged in brokering, trading, and

13 distribution activities in a manner

14 inconsistent with 205.101(b) are operating

15 illegally and are subject to penalties and

16 fines as per 205.101(c)(i).

17 I'd like to add that these ideas

18 are not entirely my own. They are really the

19 culmination of many conversations with people

20 who have observed this same thing. And to

21 those, several of whom are here, I thank you

22 very much for encouraging me to bring this
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1 issue to light.

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

4 Questions? Don't run off, Patti.

5 Katrina?

6 MS. BURSTEN-DEUTCH: Sorry.

7 MEMBER HEINZE: Yes, I just wanted

8 to thank you for your comments. I think it is

9 an important topic and appreciate you bringing

10 it to the Board.

11 MS. BURSTEN-DEUTCH: Thank you.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

13 Pat Kane?

14 MS. KANE: I'll pass.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: You're

16 passing? See, just like not being here. I

17 was right the first time.

18 Okay, Jake with a proxy. Gwen --

19 Gwendolyn Wyard and Steven Peirce.

20 PARTICIPANT: Are you getting

21 silly?

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: If it
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1 helps.

2 MR. LEWIN: It is my distinct hope

3 to not use the proxy. And I'm sure it is

4 yours, too.

5 All right. My name is Jake Lewin. 

6 I'm the Chief Certification Officer for CCOF

7 Certification Services. We certify about

8 2,300 operations in 38 states in about three

9 countries.

10 I want to thank you for all your

11 work. I know you all work extremely hard. I

12 know some of you personally and have spent

13 some dinners with you. And I know the amount

14 of work you do.

15 And with that, I believe I'll be

16 nominated to the certifier's seat. And I

17 humbly hope that I am chosen to serve. But

18 I'm not sure why because it seems like a heck

19 of a lot of work.

20 So, but the issue at hand, what we

21 are here to talk about is the 100 percent

22 recommendation. And we are CCOF request that
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1 the Committee withdraw this recommendation and

2 instead put forward either a recommendation

3 that clarifies that non-organic additives or

4 processing aids are prohibited in the 100

5 percent organic labeling category without

6 exception or a recommendation to eliminate the 

7 labeling claim of 100 percent organic.

8 We believe that the problem that

9 must be addressed is the inconsistent approval

10 of products in the 100 percent organic claim. 

11 And we respectfully ask that the Committee to

12 return the discussion back to this issue.

13 It is clearly compliant with the

14 regulation to clarify that the use of any

15 material listed on 205.605 means that the

16 final product cannot be labeled 100 percent

17 organic. This interpretation is also far more

18 practical than the recommendation proposed by

19 the Committee, which would create a confusing

20 and contradictory exemption that is poorly

21 supported by the regulation itself.

22 As certifiers, CCOF dedicates
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1 significant time and resources to the daunting

2 task of explaining the subtleties of the NOP

3 standards to certified operations. We support

4 regulatory changes or guidance that makes

5 certification requirements clearer and more

6 intuitive to certified parties and to

7 consumers.

8 Instead of bringing clarity to

9 this issue, this recommendation suggests that

10 we add another layer of complexity to the 100

11 percent organic labeling category. The 100

12 percent organic claim is the simplest for

13 consumers to understand and identify.

14 However, the distinction between

15 ingredients, processing aids, and inert

16 atmospheric gases are not obvious to the

17 consumer and nobody should need a degree in

18 chemistry to understand the 100 percent

19 organic claim.

20 We are also confused and concerned

21 about the inclusion of argon in this

22 recommendation since it is not listed on
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1 205.605 and, therefore, we just can't figure

2 out where it fits into this at all.

3 The benefits of creating another

4 except in the case of clause to allow these

5 materials in 100 percent organic products and

6 to allow the use of argon, which is not

7 currently on the National List, clearly

8 outweigh the disadvantages of adding yet

9 another complication to the rule.

10 So moving on from that, moving to

11 the Made with seal, there has been a lot of

12 comments on this. There is not a lot of

13 support. I don't really see the need to pile

14 on so I'm going to keep this brief.

15 We've got written comments. I'd

16 encourage you to read them. At kind of its

17 fundamental level, an optional seal is sub18 optimal at best. It's unlikely to be used. 

19 And a mandatory seal is a non-starter since

20 that would create a huge burden on

21 manufacturers and creates color issues and

22 packaging issues.
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1 So we just -- we don't see it as

2 workable and, instead, believe that there

3 should be clarifications regarding that claim

4 and more promotion and time spent promoting

5 that claim.

6 Finally, because we ran out of

7 time earlier, I'd like to just address the

8 stocking rate charts very briefly. I'd like

9 to point out that the NOSB in 2000 discussed

10 this issue and recommended that the stocking

11 rate guidelines be included in a management

12 practices manual and not in the rule itself as

13 they were so specific.

14 While a management practices

15 manual was never developed and, therefore,

16 such guidelines were not implemented, the

17 wisdom of the previous Board holds true. I

18 strongly recommend that when stocking rates

19 are determined, they be added to the NOP

20 policy manual that is currently under

21 development and not included in the

22 regulations.
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1 So those are our comments on those

2 issues. And really thank you for taking the

3 time to hear them.

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

5 Jay?

6 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. Do you guys

7 certify any 100 percent organic?

8 MR. LEWIN: Yes, absolutely,

9 often.

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. Why would

11 we need to put inert -- you said inert and

12 atmospheric gases on 605?

13 MR. LEWIN: The inert atmospheric

14 gases, with the exception of argon, that are

15 discussed in this recommendation already

16 appear under 605. It is there. Their use in

17 organic is predicated on that listing. And we

18 believe that any use of a material based on

19 its 605 listing should result in that material

20 being labeled organic. Does that make sense?

21 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Joe?

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.
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1 MEMBER SMILLIE: At the risk of --

2 I'll address some of your comments tomorrow

3 when I present the 100 percent option. We

4 would agree to disagree on that item.

5 The argon we'll have to think

6 about since it isn't on 605. But the idea is

7 not so much whether they are allowable or not. 

8 It is the question of whether they are a

9 processing aid or not. And the Committee

10 believes that they are not. They shouldn't be

11 looked at as a processing aid but as a

12 packaging aid. And hence, you know, that's

13 why our recommendation is there.

14 As far as the 100 percent category

15 itself, originally we considered making a

16 recommendation to abolish the category. But

17 for various reasons, we decided to just remedy

18 this particular discreet usage. And I'll go

19 into more detail tomorrow when I present the

20 Committee. But we will certainly take account

21 of your comments.

22 MR. LEWIN: We have some
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1 significant concerns regarding implementing a

2 justification based on a term packaging aid

3 that appears nowhere in the regulation. It

4 starts to verge on semantic niceties in order

5 to gain exceptions to use of the 100 percent

6 organic claim.

7 And it doesn't lead us down a good

8 road. It leads us down a road of a thicket of

9 exemptions for what should be relatively

10 simply and what we should do our best to keep

11 simple.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

13 Gwendolyn Wyard, Steve Peirce,

14 John Ashby.

15 MS. WYARD: Testing, testing. All

16 right. Great. Thanks.

17 Good evening, Mr. Chairman,

18 members of the Board, NOP staff, and ladies

19 and gentlemen of the gallery. My name is

20 Gwendolyn Wyard speaking on behalf of Oregon

21 Tilth.

22 I'm the Processing Program
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1 Technical Specialist, holding a degree in Food

2 Science. I've worked in the farming and

3 certification community since 1994.

4 And I've also been working closely

5 with the Board on the topics of agricultural

6 and non-agricultural and synthetic and non7 synthetic since 2004 when Oregon Tilth first

8 submitted a proposal with a solution for

9 distinguishing between agricultural and non10 agricultural.

11 I also co-chaired the Material

12 Working Group with Kim Dietz.

13 You have our written comments. We

14 have comments on the USDA seal on Made with

15 products as well as use of inert atmospheric

16 gases in the 100 percent label. I'm not going

17 to touch on those. If you have any questions,

18 we concur with CCOF on the use of the Made

19 with seal. We have a slightly different take

20 on the use of inert atmospheric gases.

21 But what I am going to try to do

22 today is bring some -- hopefully some
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1 clarification to the discussion surrounding

2 chemical change. Okay so we're talking about

3 the classification of materials.

4 And the definition of chemical

5 change, what I have up on the screen, the red

6 is the OTCO Oregon Tilth proposed definition

7 or addition to chemical change. It is going

8 to be hard to see.

9 The blue is the one that was put

10 out this morning. And the green is the one

11 that's in the addendum document that went out.

12 So the green one, there was a lot

13 of commenters that were concerned about the

14 document that went out, feeling that it went

15 too far. It went beyond an exception that was

16 provided really to agricultural products to

17 process food. And I'm going to give some

18 background hopefully that will help clarify

19 that.

20 The green version could have

21 presented us with a situation where you could

22 take two non-synthetics and react those and
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1 come up with a third. And in the situation of

2 a crop or a livestock input.

3 And I'm not going to speak on

4 whether or not that is good or bad. But I

5 will say it is different. It is different

6 than historically, you know what's been

7 reviewed and decided in terms of crop and

8 livestock inputs.

9 So I want to go back to the 1993

10 Handling Committee working draft. And I want

11 to read you a couple sections from that.

12 And when they were discussing the

13 structuring and the National List and talking

14 about agricultural, non-agricultural,

15 synthetic, and non-synthetic, they said the

16 first question is whether the normal effects

17 of food processing by processing methods

18 specifically allowed in the OFPA, such effects

19 being known to generate chemical changes in

20 food, thereby render the food synthetic.

21 The Committee's consideration of

22 the term synthetic led to the following
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1 statement. The term synthetic shall not be

2 applied to otherwise non-synthetic substances

3 that is formulated or manufactured by

4 processing as defined in the Act.

5 That idea was carried forth into

6 the 2005 clarification document on synthetic

7 and non-synthetic where the Board was very

8 clear when they said this clarification, as it

9 relates to the definition of synthetic in the

10 regulation, is about inputs put on to 601

11 through 606.

12 Okay, it doesn't apply to the

13 processing of food or agricultural products

14 that are processed by handling operations. It

15 was really trying to distinguish between what

16 takes place in a handling operation versus the

17 inputs that the Board is reviewing to go on to

18 the National List.

19 Okay. So the problem, however, is

20 that you have the processing of food, okay, so

21 you're toasted wheat, your bread, I think that

22 most people can say if it goes through a
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1 chemical change, not synthetic.

2 But there are substances that you

3 will be looking at that go onto 605 or ones

4 that are already on there that could be

5 processed organically. And you also could

6 review them and they could be synthetic.

7 So it is looking at specifically

8 substances that are going on to 605, inputs on

9 605 or 606, and asking whether they could be

10 organic.

11 If you'd put up the next slide,

12 Valerie, this is our -- this simplifies it a

13 little bit -- our suggestion for chemical

14 change. A term synthetic shall not be applied

15 to the processing of agricultural products as

16 defined in 205.270(a).

17 We're choosing 205.270(a) versus

18 205.2, which is in your suggested definition

19 as of this morning, because 205.270 is under

20 the regulations for handling operations.

21 Please go on to the next slide. A

22 lot of this has to do with commercial
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1 availability. Assign it to 605 to all

2 ingredients in the five percent.

3 So any questions, there's quite a

4 bit more that I could speak on but I know

5 we're all tired.

6 Katrina?

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Katrina?

8 MS. WYARD: Sorry.

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No, that's

10 all right. Just go right ahead.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MEMBER HEINZE: Gwendolyn, as

13 always, thank you for all your thought on this

14 topic and insightful comments.

15 To maybe distill your comment down

16 to maybe its key point, what I'm hearing is

17 you like the language that we had this morning

18 but it goes too far in going to crops and

19 livestock. And you would prefer that it just

20 be focused on handling.

21 MS. WYARD: It's -- yes, it needs

22 to be -- it is an exception provided to
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1 processed food, to processed agricultural

2 products and inputs that are put onto 605 or

3 606 because you don't want to put something on

4 to 605 as a synthetic, as a non-agricultural

5 synthetic when an organic alternative is

6 available or could be available because then

7 we're stuck in the situation that is really

8 what is the big stumbling block that we're up

9 against.

10 People are less attached to

11 whether something is classified as

12 agricultural or non-agricultural per se but

13 very attached to whether or not it can be

14 produced organically or people should be

15 required to source an organic form.

16 And that's why we're saying a lot

17 of this could be eliminated if you were to

18 apply commercial availability to anything in

19 the five percent. A lot of this would be

20 eliminated.

21 MEMBER HEINZE: Yes. So limit it

22 to processing.
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1 MS. WYARD: Absolutely. It has

2 always been the intent. And their definition

3 this morning said the processing of

4 agricultural products using materials on 601

5 or 602, I don't really understand how that

6 even makes sense because if I am processing an

7 agricultural product, I'm a handling

8 operation, I'm not looking to 601 or 603. I'm

9 limited to 605 and 606 only.

10 So the way that that wording is

11 structured, it's not even allowed by the

12 regulations. It's the difference between the

13 evaluation of an input versus evaluation of a

14 processed agricultural product or food. So

15 you need to make that distinguished.

16 MEMBER HEINZE: Thanks.

17 MS. WYARD: Sure. Any other

18 questions?

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Do you

20 want to comment? Go ahead, Jay.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Is there -- any I

22 crazy or is there any reason to distinguish
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1 between 605(a) and 605(b) in this whole

2 conversation -- discussion?

3 MS. WYARD: Well, for 95.5, it has

4 to be on the list period. Where synthetic and

5 non-synthetic comes into play is really -- and

6 I think a couple people have brought this up

7 although it is not currently applied is the

8 idea of organic preference where you use

9 organic first, then you use non-synthetic,

10 then you use synthetic.

11 But for 605, in organic products,

12 it has to be on 605 or 606. But we --

13 MEMBER FELDMAN: Right. But

14 whether we define that product as synthetic or

15 not, the distinction between 605(a) and 605(b)

16 seems significant because the (a) obviously is

17 non-synthetic or natural and the other is

18 synthetic. So, you know --

19 MS. WYARD: Because it is a closed

20 list, it certainly has a lot less significance

21 than with crop or livestock.

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. But it has
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1 some significance.

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Jay, the

3 difference -- and you're not crazy --

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay.

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: -- you

6 make complete sense.

7 MS. WYARD: Yes.

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: It's just

9 not the way the law is written. The law

10 states a chemical change. It doesn't say what

11 made it.

12 MEMBER FELDMAN: Right.

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: We've

14 looked at that before.

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. I feel

16 crazy though.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No, you're

18 just tired.

19 John?

20 MEMBER FOSTER: So going to the

21 terminology or the definition that you are

22 comfortable with, would that have, in your
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1 mind, any bearing on the Corn Steep Liquor

2 question?

3 MS. WYARD: Valerie, do you want

4 to go back one bit here? Okay.

5 So if you had somebody producing

6 Corn Steep Liquor using enzymes, I mean this

7 would be a situation where you could look at

8 Corn Steep Liquor in the context of crops, and

9 you could say okay, the sulfur dioxide, we're

10 going to decide that the cleavage of the

11 disulfide bonds, that's synthetic.

12 Make your synthetic determination. 

13 Just because you've made that synthetic

14 determination for that particular source and

15 process doesn't mean that a non-synthetic or

16 an organic form could also be available.

17 If you were to now have somebody

18 that wants to petition cornstarch or some

19 other product of the wet milling process to

20 605 or 606, now if you were to plug in this --

21 the second part of this definition, it's

22 processing, it's using materials on 605 or
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1 606, it would not be synthetic. 

2 Rather it would be, in this

3 particular case, non-synthetic and potentially

4 could be made in organic form, which is the

5 case with the organic cornstarch, organic

6 maltodextrin, and all the ones that are

7 utilizing enzymes versus sulfur dioxide or

8 sulfurous acid.

9 MEMBER FOSTER: Okay. So if I

10 hear you correctly, and correct me if I'm

11 wrong, then since sulfur dioxide is on 605, is

12 it not --

13 MS. WYARD: Annotated restriction.

14 MEMBER FOSTER: -- well, okay, but

15 we haven't talked about annotations yet,

16 right?

17 MS. WYARD: Well, when we talk

18 about a material on 605 or 606, we talk about

19 the material and its annotation.

20 MEMBER FOSTER: Okay.

21 MS. WYARD: We don't speak of them

22 differently. They're all one.
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1 MEMBER FOSTER: Thank you. Then

2 we're only talking about ingredients, never

3 about inputs here, correct?

4 MS. WYARD: Ingredients.

5 MEMBER FOSTER: Correct. So my

6 wish in all of this has been to use the same

7 definition for synthetic, whether we're

8 talking about an ingredient or an input. It's

9 my wish.

10 I realize I don't always get what

11 I wish for. But what I would also wish to

12 avoid is down the road someone else coming up

13 with a definition of synthetic for an input

14 that is inconsistent with what we come to

15 here. That's a train wreck.

16 And by not including determination

17 of ag inputs, farm crop, or livestock inputs

18 under this same umbrella --

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Is there a

20 question in here, John?

21 MS. WYARD: Oh, there must be.

22 MEMBER FOSTER: Eventually. Does
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1 -- am I right in understanding that in your

2 thinking, this would not apply to farm or

3 livestock inputs?

4 MS. WYARD: No because the

5 historical practice of material evaluation has

6 been this, this exception that commenters were

7 wanting to have built into this recommendation

8 applied to food and processing, all of the

9 materials that have been reviewed for many,

10 many years have not applied this exception.

11 So to now take this exception and

12 apply it to crop and livestock, that's going

13 to be very different from a lot of decisions

14 that have been made in the past.

15 So, you know, good or bad, it's

16 just something we'll have to contend with. 

17 It's different. It's a change.

18 And also if anybody wants to ask

19 any questions about the worksheets and how

20 I've split apart the decision sheets that you

21 put together and how they should definitely be

22 split into ag and non-ag and synthetic and
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1 non-synthetic, I'd love to answer those

2 questions as well.

3 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Katrina?

4 MEMBER HEINZE: It will be fast. 

5 I was just going to say we appreciate getting

6 them. Obviously that work will come after --

7 MS. WYARD: Guidance document,

8 work to come. Yes, I'm here for you. 

9 Anything, assistance, I love it.

10 Thank you very much.

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

12 Steve Peirce, John Ashby, Alexis

13 Baden-Mayer.

14 MR. PEIRCE: Good evening. And I

15 would like to start by saying thank you for

16 the volunteer work that you all do. And the

17 dedicated effort that the NOP puts in for our

18 industry.

19 My comments this afternoon are

20 relating to the National List and actually the

21 removal of synthetics or non-organic

22 ingredients from that list. And it is the
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1 procedures involved.

2 My credentials, I'm a president of

3 a company. I could be considered an

4 entrepreneur, part-time inventor, in one of

5 those kind of organizations that I think you,

6 the Board, and the NOP has looked to to find

7 organic and natural, wholly natural

8 alternatives to some of the synthetics that

9 are on the National List.

10 I have submitted comments in 2007

11 during the Sunset Review period as it related

12 to silicone dioxide. Those comments seem to

13 have been lost.

14 Secondly, we have submitted

15 petitions to have silicone dioxide removed. 

16 I understand that the Board is going to be

17 looking at that in the fall. And that

18 petition would fly in the face of allowing an

19 exemption for it again for the next five

20 years.

21 Likewise, there are petitions

22 coming on the subject of mono and diglycerides 
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1 for use as drum dry release agent according to

2 the annotation on it.

3 With that in mind, the Sunset

4 process I think is very good, very time

5 consuming and part of what went into the Act

6 when it was originally conceived. I think

7 there is good direction on how to make

8 comments, whether you are in favor of leaving

9 a product on the list or removing the product.

10 However, what is either non11 existent or I consider to be non-existent, is

12 the information necessary for you, the Board

13 members so that, as Jay said earlier today,

14 you guys need to know what products are

15 produced? Who is producing it? Is it a

16 natural alternative? Does it fit the

17 commercial availability?

18 So that you can make informed

19 decisions not to disrupt the supply chain

20 because that is one of your biggest concerns. 

21 One is food safety and life safety. But also

22 not to interrupt that supply chain.
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1 I think some provisions need to be

2 made in that Sunset period so that someone

3 that does invent something new and bring it to

4 the marketplace can have the right process to

5 inform you properly at the right time so that

6 you can make an informed decision.

7 In that same vein, as we look at

8 the petition process, it is all about how to

9 get new synthetic or new non-organic

10 ingredients on to the National List. Those on

11 ramps onto that interstate highway are very

12 well built and very well used.

13 What was conceived of in the Act

14 to have a system where there are also off

15 ramps so we don't get too crowded on that

16 highway, they haven't been built. I applaud

17 you on what you did earlier this year or last

18 year as it related to lecithin. It wasn't

19 easy. Brain damaging. Took a lot of time. 

20 And sure as heck was not efficient.

21 Something needs to be done so that

22 the entrepreneurs that are out there that are
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1 supporting what the Act stands for, what the

2 NOP and the NOSB stand for, so we know how to

3 actively get involved in that game, get our

4 product, when it is in the commercial

5 marketplace, our products have been sold in

6 probably nine, 12 countries around the world

7 into organics but yet silicone dioxide still

8 remains on the National List.

9 So looking at this, the group that

10 we most hardily support seems to be one of the

11 hardest hurdles for us to jump is making that

12 awareness. If you read the Act, and I know

13 all of you have, it talks about that the

14 reason an exception is given is when a wholly

15 natural alternative doesn't exist.

16 And Joe made the comment today

17 start using the organic hops. I'm sure the

18 other certifiers will cause the producers to

19 start buying that and using that. That's kind

20 of fantasy land because I've got to tell you,

21 it doesn't happen that way. 

22 Since we've had a product on the
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1 market over the last four years, I've had

2 probably two cases where people have said my

3 certifier said I need to look for this type of

4 alternative.

5 So in closing with the one-minute

6 mark, I support what you guys are doing. We

7 have invented some products.

8 We have brought them to the market

9 in commercial availability, working as one-to10 one replacers on silicone dioxide, working as

11 replaces for mono and diglycerides, we're

12 going through the process, as set up by the

13 Federal Register, and just encourage more of

14 the dialogue like Jay talked about so that

15 producers and regulators are in sync with one

16 another and their system informs to that

17 you've got yes, good on ramps for products

18 that are needed in organics as well as good

19 off ramps so that when some of those non20 organic items are timed to either sunset or be

21 disallowed, it is an easier, smoother, more

22 efficient process for the entire industry.
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1 Thank you.

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

3 Joe?

4 MEMBER SMILLIE: Have we received

5 that petition?

6 MR. PEIRCE: The Board probably

7 has not. It was filed in January. It was

8 resent -- it was resubmitted back to us on a

9 point of confusion. Are we supposed to fill

10 out the two parts according to the Federal

11 Register as to why the synthetic is no longer

12 necessary or do we need to fill out the 12-

13 part portion that talks about ten sections,

14 all about the synthetic that you are trying to

15 displace rather than those specific items that

16 we would bring to the market.

17 It was resubmitted to Washington,

18 D.C. and received on Monday of this week. So

19 you haven't gotten it yet.

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: We don't

21 have it then.

22 MR. PEIRCE: Okay. Good. No, you
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1 haven't missed anything.

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

3 Thank you very much. And a lot of these

4 things will come up in discussions tomorrow

5 specifically rather than getting into them

6 when we don't really have questions here.

7 MR. PEIRCE: Understood. Thanks

8 again.

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

10 John Ashby, Alexis Baden-Mayer --

11 I'm not sure whether Meredith Niles is up or

12 Jaydee Hanson is next. I have notes on here

13 and I'm not sure what they mean.

14 So, John, go ahead.

15 MR. ASHBY: John Ashby with

16 California Natural Products.

17 In the interest of the late hour,

18 I've decided to present my comments in the

19 form of a couple of haikus.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. ASHBY: 605(a), (b), thanks. 

22 Processors need them all. They don't hurt
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1 nothing.

2 Nanochemistry, weird. This is

3 what matters. Food safety will trump all.

4 One, two, three is best. Adjust

5 annotations, oops, is the NOSB.

6 And finally, 205, 207(a), are

7 chemical reactions. Synthetic, it depends.

8 (Laughter and applause.)

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: You've had

10 all day. We will not ask questions in the

11 form of haiku.

12 Katrina?

13 MEMBER HEINZE: I would

14 respectfully ask that you submit those in

15 writing.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MR. ASHBY: Okay. I don't think I

18 edited them in the reading.

19 MEMBER HEINZE: No, please,

20 please, that was the most succinct think I

21 have ever heard.

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. One
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1 question before you go. Valerie, what's my --

2 can you clarify the note on Meredith and

3 Jaydee?

4 MS. FRANCES: Meredith is the

5 proxy for Jaydee Hanson as well. Or the other

6 way around. Meredith is supposed to be here.

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: One will

8 speak for ten minutes.

9 MS. FRANCES: Yes.

10 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. And

11 then after that would be David Bronner. Okay.

12 Alexis, I'm sorry about that. But

13 go ahead.

14 MS. BADEN-MAYER: I'm going to do

15 an interpretive dance.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MS. BADEN-MAYER: I'm Alexis

18 Baden-Mayer. I'm here on behalf of the

19 Organic Consumers Association and the 900,000

20 organic consumer activists who have worked

21 with us over the last decade for a national

22 organic program that lives up to consumer
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1 expectations for organic food and farming.

2 Consumers expect organic to be

3 safer, more nutritious, better for the

4 environment, and kinder to animals than non5 organic food and farming. And it is. But

6 there are decisions that you will make as

7 members of the National Organic Standards

8 Board this week that will determine just how

9 much better organic is.

10 Please support continuous

11 improvement in organic by banning nanotech,

12 letting the October 2010 Sunset on synthetic

13 methionine happen, and keeping up the good

14 work that you all have begun to put measurable

15 minimum requirements behind the animal welfare

16 standards that already exist.

17 Along with my testimony, I am

18 submitting 16,184 letters from our members in

19 support of excluding nanoengineering from

20 organic and 8,767 letters in support of ending

21 the use of synthetic methionine.

22 Organic is largely defined by what
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1 it is not, no harmful pesticides, synthetic

2 fertilizers, or radiation, sewage sludge,

3 antibiotics, genetic engineering, or animal

4 cloning. It's time to add nanotechnology and

5 exclude that, too.

6 We need to give consumers a way to

7 avoid unlabeled and potentially dangerous

8 nanotech packaging and ingredients. Ban

9 nanotechnology from organic by making

10 nanoengineering an excluded method, not just

11 prohibited synthetic materials that could be

12 petitioned for use at a later time, but an

13 excluded method that has no place in organic.

14 Organic, of course, is a lot more

15 than what it isn't. We call organic organic

16 because it builds up the organic matter in the

17 soil. Organics' capacity to maintain and

18 build soil fertility is the reason that it

19 will be organic farming that feeds the world

20 into the future.

21 Building organic matter in the

22 soil also traps carbon dioxide. The Rodale
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1 Institute has estimated that if all the

2 world's crop land were transitioned to

3 organic, it would sequester 40 percent of the

4 world's current greenhouse gas emissions. And

5 that's just crop land. Pasture has even more

6 potential to trap carbon dioxide.

7 If it doesn't build soil's organic

8 matter, then it isn't organic. Unfortunately,

9 there is a lot of organic food production in

10 the US that isn't in crop land or pasture. 

11 It's in sheds full of animals. Thirty

12 thousands hens in a single building with a

13 little door to a little porch. That's what is

14 being certified as organic in chicken and egg

15 production.

16 They are fed organic corn and soy,

17 no antibiotics, no cages, but it is a far cry

18 from what one would expect from reading the

19 current rules. Animals raised organically are

20 supposed to be given access to the outdoors

21 and be allowed to exhibit their natural

22 behaviors under conditions that provide for
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1 exercise, freedom of movement, and reduction

2 of stress.

3 If it weren't for the use of

4 synthetic methionine, producers that didn't

5 let their chickens out to scratch for food in

6 pasture would have chickens that looked really

7 sick. And the certifiers would see the stress

8 that results when chickens are prevented from

9 exhibiting their natural behaviors.

10 Synthetic methionine is a crutch

11 that the industry has used to scale up

12 production and keep costs down. This is

13 organic as we know it. But this means the

14 grocery store organic consumer is being

15 deprived of the pleasure of cracking open a

16 pasture-raised egg and seeing the difference

17 for themselves. Pasture-raised hens lay eggs

18 with yolks that are deep, bright, red-orange.

19 It's so different from what you

20 see in organic eggs in the grocery store

21 today. The difference you are seeing is the

22 nutrition, four to six times as much Vitamin
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1 D, one-third less cholesterol, one-fourth less

2 saturated fat, two-thirds more Vitamin A, two

3 times more Omega-3 essential fatty acids,

4 three times more Vitamin E, seven more times

5 beta carotene.

6 But organic consumers who shop at

7 the grocery store won't see that. And they

8 won't know what they are missing.

9 And maybe they will just agree

10 with the United Egg Producers that there's no

11 real difference between organic eggs and

12 regular eggs. Maybe they will learn that

13 organic chickens are fed synthetic feed

14 supplements and kept by the tens of thousands

15 in huge sheds.

16 I don't want to be the one to tell

17 them that. I want to tell them that in

18 October 2010, synthetic methionine is being

19 phased out and won't be allowed in organic

20 anymore. And that organic has strong animal

21 welfare standards that are strictly enforced

22 to produce food that is safer, more
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1 nutritious, and better for the environment.

2 So I will be reporting back to our

3 members. And I hope you all give us something

4 to be excited about.

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions? 

6 Jay?

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: So I'm curious

8 how you view the responsibility of the NOSB in

9 light of -- you know, you are the largest

10 organic consumer organization by name although

11 I suspect Consumers Union might have claim a

12 large segment of the population on this issue

13 as well.

14 These issues you are discussing,

15 you know, are they issues you feel we have

16 discretionary authority on? Or do you see the

17 law is very clear and in terms of a mandate,

18 given the statute and the regulations?

19 MS. BADEN-MAYER: It's clear to me

20 when I read the law. I mean it seems obvious

21 that the idea is to phase out synthetics,

22 continuous improvement, you know, and build a
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1 system that improves soil fertility, and

2 respects animals' natural behaviors.

3 I mean all these things seem

4 obvious to me. And from the certifiers that

5 show up here, you know, it seems obvious to

6 them, too. I don't think that the scrupulous

7 certifiers who are presenting before the NOSB

8 and are really involved, I think they are

9 doing the right thing.

10 That's my assumption.

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

12 MS. BADEN-MAYER: I'm willing to

13 suspend my disbeliefs and imagine that the way

14 I interpret the law is the way it is being

15 enforced.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Right. I mean

17 obviously there is the issue of consumer

18 perception here. But there is also what our

19 statutory duty is. And that's what I need to

20 hear in terms of what our responsibility is as

21 a Board to meet the standards of the law as

22 they exist right now.
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1 And it sounds like what you are

2 saying is all the positions you are taking are

3 based on what you believe is the correct

4 reading of the law.

5 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Yes. And I

6 think that a lot of the issues that are before

7 you that you are trying to figure out like the

8 animal welfare issues, if we just had, you

9 know, all the people who come to the NOSB

10 meetings, I think really understand things.

11 But we have a lot of people

12 participating in organic now who aren't as

13 dedicated. They're not the first wave. They

14 aren't the people who invented organic. You

15 know and for them maybe we need clearer

16 guidelines.

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: I have

19 one. Do you have any comment at all on the

20 238(c)(i) recommendation?

21 MS. BADEN-MAYER: I'm sorry. What

22 is that?
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: The

2 products on 603 with the withholding period

3 that are given to cows on whether that milk

4 can be fed to the calves.

5 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Is that

6 something I can submit comments on before May

7 25th? Okay, then I'll look --

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No, we

9 would be voting on that at this meeting.

10 MS. BADEN-MAYER: My understanding

11 was that you are accepting comments until the

12 25th --

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No, that's

14 not a Sunset item, no.

15 MS. BADEN-MAYER: It's not one of

16 the -- okay, sorry, never mind.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No, no.

18 MS. BADEN-MAYER: I'm sorry. I

19 don't know about this issue.

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

21 Okay. Thank you.

22 MS. BADEN-MAYER: It's bad.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: And she

2 says we're the group of no. Okay.

3 Is this Meredith or Jaydee?

4 MS. NILES: I am Meredith, not

5 Jaydee.

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay,

7 Meredith, Dave Bronner, and Cheryl van Dyne.

8 Meredith, do you need five or ten

9 or two fives?

10 MS. NILES: I'm going to do my

11 best to not take ten but that's what I'm

12 scheduled for, I believe.

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: That's so

14 tempting to say give her eight. But go ahead.

15 MS. NILES: Okay. Good evening. 

16 I'm speaking on behalf of the Center for Food

17 Safety and the International Center for

18 Technology Assessment. They are both actually

19 at the Supreme Court today testifying against

20 an appeal by Monsanto to repeal the injunction

21 on genetically-engineered alfalfa. So I'm a

22 consultant to the Center for Food Safety and
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1 I'll be speaking about nanotechnology.

2 Nanotechnology, like genetic

3 engineering, irradiation, cloning of animals,

4 and sewage sludge is antithetical to the

5 intent and letter of organic law and the rules

6 governing organic practices.

7 It is an industrial engineering

8 process intended to engineer and manipulate

9 nature at its most fundamental level. The

10 platform technology allows industry to create

11 or synthesize products that can behave in ways

12 that naturally-occurring substances simply

13 cannot.

14 A company intentionally

15 manufactures or engineers a material at the

16 nano scale so it can use the new properties

17 that emanate from the nanoscale such as

18 increased surface area, solubility, size,

19 charge, physical dimensions, et cetera.

20 As such, it does not matter

21 whether the original bulk material comes from

22 a natural source because once nanotechnology
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1 is applied, the chemical and physical changes

2 that result render it a non-agricultural

3 synthetic material.

4 Today's engineered nanomaterials

5 and nanoparticles, as well as those in

6 development, are different from anything else

7 that occurs in nature. This is precisely why

8 nanotechnology is promoted so heavily by

9 industry.

10 While proponents may claim that

11 their new products are just the same as non12 nanoproducts to regulators, at the same time,

13 they are claiming that their products are

14 entirely new with novel properties in order to

15 secure patents.

16 Naturally-occurring nanoparticles,

17 such as salt nanocrystals found in the ocean

18 or carbon nanoparticles emitted from fire, are

19 very different from nanoparticles that are

20 deliberately engineered or manufactured. 

21 Nature makes them as nature has

22 intended, in the natural environment. As
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1 naturally-occurring and not manufactured,

2 artificially synthesized or deliberately

3 engineered, these natural nanoparticles should

4 be omitted from the definition of

5 nanoparticles or in the materials that are

6 prohibited under the organic rules.

7 Section 2118 of the Organic Foods

8 Product Act outlines the standard that must be

9 met in order for synthetic substances to be

10 included on the National List. 

11 Nanotechnologies and materials, as a class,

12 fail to meet this standard and, therefore,

13 they should be prohibited in organic now and

14 in the future.

15 That said, if nanomaterials are

16 classified as synthetic without a prohibition

17 as an excluded substance and method, every

18 single nanofood and nanofood packaging

19 ingredient would be allowed to be petitioned

20 for inclusion on the National List. Such

21 petitions should, and hopefully would, be

22 denied because the production of GECs in crops
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1 fundamentally contravene the intent and

2 express language of the Organic Foods

3 Production Act.

4 But the integrity of the standards

5 would be in constant jeopardy or question and

6 organic advocates would have to remain forever

7 vigilant that no nano-derived materials slip

8 on to the National List.

9 The only way to protect the

10 integrity of organic is to prohibit

11 nanotechnology and engineered nanomaterials as

12 a class because it is antithetical to the

13 principles and purpose of the organic

14 standard.

15 The assumption that there may be

16 some type of nanotechnology application that

17 may have the potential to be considered

18 organic in the future should not be used as a

19 basis for setting organic policy. That

20 argument is without merit and it would be an

21 irresponsible public policy to leave open the

22 door for nanotechnology on that basis.
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1 Instead, at this moment, there

2 exist sufficient evidence to prohibit the use

3 of nanotechnology by taking precautionary

4 action particularly in light of the fact that

5 nanotechnology intentionally manufactures or

6 engineers synthetic substances that pose a

7 demonstrated risk to both human and

8 environmental health.

9 Please refer to our comment that

10 we submitted in both April and November of

11 2009 regarding these risks.

12 In our written comments we propose

13 specific amendments to the definition of nano

14 and we ask the NOSB to seriously consider them

15 when deliberating on this issue.

16 In short, the definition of

17 nanomaterials and particles and the basis for

18 its prohibition pivots on two significant

19 factors. First, their non-agricultural

20 synthetic nature and two, the fact that they

21 are intentionally engineered or manufactured.

22 We argue that all nanoparticles
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1 and structures which have at least one

2 dimension and the nanoscale range of one to

3 300 nanometers must be considered synthetic,

4 non-agricultural, and prohibited from organic

5 agriculture.

6 Such nanoparticles do not qualify

7 as processing aids, adjuvant excipients,

8 solvents or other inert or minor ingredient

9 substances even when present in insignificant

10 amounts in the final product.

11 We further argue that the nano

12 prohibition should not include naturally13 occurring nanomaterials such as sea salt or

14 nanomaterials that form during traditional

15 food manufacturing and processing including

16 homogenization, cheese making, or grain

17 milling.

18 The NOSB definition of

19 nanomaterials need not rest on the ability to

20 detect the nanomaterials through techniques

21 such as electron microscopes or other

22 meteorological devices as suggested in our
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1 class for comments. The NOSB can best address

2 this concern by making nanotechnology a

3 prohibited method.

4 Nanotechnology are synthetic in

5 that they are engineered materials intended to

6 take advantage of their properties at the

7 nanoscale. Engineering an element, mineral,

8 or a chemical compound at the nanoscale

9 profoundly changes the ways in which a new

10 nanomaterial's function can arise.

11 Unlike synthetic chemistry in

12 which the chemistry of a chemical is altered

13 and a new chemical is formed,

14 nanotechnological engineering can change

15 synthetic chemicals and natural metals'

16 chemicals into a substance that is essentially

17 a new synthetic because of its new properties

18 such as scale or surface area, not chemical

19 engineering.

20 The chemical reactions of a

21 nanoscale material can change from that of the

22 bulk substance from which it is derived. But
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1 the chemistry of the chemical is not

2 necessarily altered.

3 It is the new properties that make

4 nanochemicals synthetic. These new property

5 changes can be even more striking than those

6 created through the application of traditional

7 synthetic chemistry. For example, safe

8 chemicals at the bulk scale can become

9 dangerous at the nanoscale.

10 The huge increase in surface area

11 alone in a nanoscale chemical makes it much

12 more highly reactive than the bulk scale

13 chemical. But the ionization and the surface

14 charge of the chemical may or may not change.

15 Chemicals that are not soluble at

16 the bulk scale can be soluble at the

17 nanoscale. The agglomeration potential of the

18 chemical changes also results in a larger

19 particle size in many cases with a surface

20 area far greater than that of a dense particle

21 of the same chemical. When two nanochemicals

22 are fused together, even more differences can
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1 appear.

2 In conclusion, nanochemicals

3 represent a new kind of synthetic not

4 envisioned by the makers of the National List. 

5 Nanotechnologies are synthetic in that they

6 are intentionally engineered to take advantage

7 of their properties at the nanoscale.

8 Moreover, if nanotechnology and

9 the knowledge we have now about its hazards

10 was known when OFPA was written, we are

11 confident that it would be considered an

12 excluded method and excluded substance akin to

13 genetic engineering. That is precisely how we

14 believe the Board should treat these

15 substances today and in the future.

16 There will always be additional

17 studies needed for us to better understand how

18 emerging technologies affect the environment

19 and human health. But the NOP must not wait

20 until all of these studies are completed

21 before prohibiting nanotechnologies and

22 synthetic nanomaterials and particles.
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1 The NOSB should take immediate

2 precautionary action to keep nanomaterials out

3 of organics before nanotechnologies are

4 infused into our food supply 

5 Defining engineered nanomaterials

6 as synthetic substances alone is not

7 sufficient to protect the integrity of USDA

8 organic. Therefore, we urge you to put

9 nanotechnology and engineered nanomaterials in

10 the same category as sewage sludge,

11 irradiation, and genetically-engineered crops. 

12 And prohibit the substance and the methods.

13 Thank you for the time. And I'd

14 be happy to answer any questions.

15 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

16 Any questions?

17 (No response)

18 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. I

19 have one. I think your comments online were

20 the ones -- was the one -- and my brain is --

21 I won't use the term I usually would use but

22 it is a little fried right now -- the
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1 potential examples we talked about were just

2 not practical and not real world, whatever it

3 is, but that's the part that I kind of

4 disagree with.

5 I agree with most of where you are

6 going. But I'd like to present just a very

7 quick scenario. And I'd like you to give me

8 an idea of what you want to do with it -- what

9 you would do with it. Complete prohibition of

10 nano, a company, middle of anywhere, a

11 municipal area, on a municipal water supply.

12 Nano is coming and we're going to

13 have a hard time stopping it. A water company

14 decides to put water filters in their

15 municipal water supply with nanosilver in it. 

16 Maybe at a very low level but there is some

17 slough off and it can be measured at very low

18 levels in that water supply.

19 With a complete prohibition on

20 nanotechnology, should that then put any

21 organic processing facility in that municipal

22 water supply that has absolutely no control
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1 over that water supply, should that put them

2 out of business as organic?

3 MS. NILES: I think that's a great

4 question. And first I'd like to add that I

5 may have to consult with CFS and ICT on some

6 of these questions since I'm here as a proxy

7 today.

8 I would add, though, that I did

9 give a talk to some water treatment employees

10 at the National Association of Clean Water

11 Agencies about a year ago. And nanosilver is

12 actually something they are very concerned

13 about as something that they would be able to

14 keep out of the water supply.

15 So I actually think that most

16 pretreatment and water agencies are thinking

17 about it from an opposite perspective and

18 viewing nanotechnologies and nanosilver as a

19 threat to their integrity of water

20 purification.

21 With regards to the rest of the

22 question, to be honest, I don't feel
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1 comfortable commenting on behalf of the CFS

2 for that. But I would be very happy to check

3 with Jaydee on that issue and get back to you

4 about it.

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay.

6 Joe?

7 MEMBER SMILLIE: Briefly, the use

8 of titanium dioxide and zinc oxide in personal

9 care sun screen products, is that all in

10 nanotechnology or are you familiar, are those

11 products effective in the non-nanoscale?

12 MS. NILES: My understanding about

13 that technology is that it's nano for the

14 reason that it will cause sun screens to go on

15 clear rather than cause them to go on white. 

16 So in this case you have a situation where it

17 is actually a technology for a very cosmetic

18 purpose and not necessarily for a health

19 purpose or a purpose that would be beneficial

20 for public health for example.

21 So my understanding is that there 

22 are both technologies there. The nano version
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1 of it is so that the sun screen will go on

2 clear.

3 MEMBER SMILLIE: Thank you.

4 MS. NILES: Thank you very much.

5 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

6 David Bronner, Cheryl van Dyne, J.

7 Friedman.

8 MR. BRONNER: Hello. I'm David

9 Bronner, President of Dr. Bronner's Magic

10 Soaps. I was going to talk a lot about soaps

11 and alkaline and why potassium and sodium

12 hydroxide should continue to be listed.

13 I'll talk on that briefly but then

14 I want to address the NOP letter to NOSB on

15 personal care.

16 So the voluntary certification of

17 soaps under the NOP has been very successful. 

18 Dr. Bronner's on reliance of the NOP scope

19 statement, as certified in 2003, following

20 Twin Craft and Bradford, the two largest

21 private label soap manufacturers in the United

22 States to be certified in 2002.
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1 We've invested three million in

2 some costs in developing fair trade organic

3 grower projects for coconut oil in Sri Lanka,

4 palm oil in Ghana, olive oil in Palestine and

5 Israel, and mint oil in India. This supports 

6 over 1,000 organic farmers in 10,000 acres.

7 As far as the alkali that we use,

8 traditionally for melaneous, the alkali was

9 made by leaching ashes or you could burn

10 biomass and you reach the ashes and you get

11 alkali and that was how you made soap.

12 It's not an appropriate way of

13 doing that on a large scale. It's very -- if

14 all the alkali in the world came from that

15 process, you would be burning a lot of

16 biomass. So the NOP properly has alkali from

17 seawater.

18 Basically you run electricity

19 through potassium chloride or sodium chloride. 

20 You separate and get your alkali that way. 

21 There are a few different processes and in my

22 written comments, there's better ones and
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1 worse ones. And the good one is winning out

2 and taking over the production, which is

3 membrane cell productions.

4 Energy efficient, there is no

5 mercury contamination.

6 And also I appreciate the

7 Materials and Handling Committee, that

8 worksheet, you know, soap works great. And,

9 you know, some comments made earlier about

10 chemical changes in foods. I mean like milk

11 caramel and you just cook sugar and milk and

12 there is a maillard reaction and, you know,

13 there's no sugar and there's no milk. I mean

14 it's milk caramel.

15 You know, it's similar to the

16 soap. And it's all organic and I feel it is

17 very much within the spirit of the organic

18 program. It's simple and more similar to

19 making tofu than it is modern detergent

20 manufacturing.

21 So the NOP, the letter to NOSB

22 references that like the 2005 statement as
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1 like a departure from previous NOP policy. 

2 And in 2005 all of a sudden NOP says personal

3 care is allowed. And, you know, before that

4 wasn't NOP's position.

5 Actually the NOP launched -- so in

6 May 2002, the original policy scope of the

7 national organic program, which is very

8 difficult to find but, you know, I found it,

9 so it states producers and handlers of any

10 agricultural commodity or product, whether raw

11 or processed, including any commodity or

12 product derived from livestock that is

13 marketed in the United States for human or

14 livestock consumption may seek certification

15 under the NOP as an organic producer or

16 handler.

17 Please note, the term consumption

18 is not limited to products that are used for

19 food. Specifically we have been asked if the

20 regulations under NOP apply to the following

21 products, class of products, and production

22 systems: mushrooms, pet foods, aquatic
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1 animals, fabrics, cosmetics, body care

2 products, over-the-counter medications,

3 dietary supplements, and other stuff.

4 Because these and other products,

5 classes of products, and production systems

6 contain agricultural products, the producers

7 and handlers of such products, classes of

8 products, and production systems are eligible

9 to seek certification under the NOP.

10 So the NOP launched with the

11 explicit invitation to personal care to

12 certify. And we were not the first. We

13 followed the two biggest soap manufacturers. 

14 We were like, you know, okay, we're going for

15 it.

16 You know so this wasn't like

17 something that we pushed on NOP. We followed

18 what, you know, we just thought this is how it

19 went.

20 Just quickly on the ag versus non21 ag, I mean it's not like clothes. Like I've

22 got a nylon shirt and I say it's organic. I
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1 mean and I can't say oh, it's non-ag so you

2 can't do anything about my non-ag organic,

3 nylon shirt.

4 I mean personal care the same say. 

5 We can't control it being organic and

6 agricultural. And anyways -- so and then

7 Leahey, there's a statement of the Leahey

8 after the rescinding of the statements from

9 Benneman. Leahey, you know, basically says

10 NOP, the NOP should be going after all these

11 organic -- all these other product classes and

12 there shouldn't be these loopholes.

13 So that's it.

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

15 Questions?

16 (No response.)

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

18 Thank you.

19 All right. We will not bring

20 dinner in. We will not bring cots. We've

21 been an hour and a half since the last break. 

22 We probably have -- oh, it could be another
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1 hour and a half to go. Hour to an hour and a

2 half. Do we want to take a break or just

3 allow people to take breaks on their own?

4 Steve says keep going -- is it to

5 keep going?

6 PARTICIPANT: Yes.

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: All right. 

8 Let's rock and roll.

9 Cheryl, Jay is bypassing his time. 

10 Susan Cheney and Harriett Behar.

11 MS. Van DYNE: Okay. I'm make it

12 brief.

13 Thank you very much for giving me

14 the update. My name is Cheryl van Dyne. I am

15 with C. P. Kelco and Huber Engineered

16 Materials. I'm Global Regulatory Affairs

17 Manager for -- they are J. M. Huber Companies.

18 Many years ago we submitted the

19 Gellan petition. And Gellan has made it to

20 rulemaking. And so I look forward, our

21 customers look forward, we, as a company that

22 manufactures food additives, we provide these
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1 to the industry as asked. And we don't

2 certify our products organic.

3 And so we've been through quite a

4 bit with this. You know I've come to the

5 meetings and I've really learned an awful lot

6 in the process.

7 One thing I would like to ask --

8 Miles isn't here but the visibility that we

9 don't have in terms of our petition material

10 as an industry is really disturbing. We --

11 you know, I come, I ask, I talk to Mark, I

12 talk to, you know, Bob Pooler, I talk to you

13 guys. Where is it? Where is it?

14 Industry really doesn't have any

15 idea what's going on. And I'd like to ask

16 that perhaps we could, with the new staffing,

17 that the industry maybe could get a little

18 more visibility.

19 I do have my contacts. And I do

20 have my insides. But it is a difficult thing.

21 The other -- anyway, thank you

22 very much for getting Gellan so far along. I
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1 guess we're at the point where it is going to

2 be downhill pretty soon.

3 The other part of why I'm here is

4 I'm representing IFAC. They've asked me to

5 speak. It is the International Food Additive

6 Council.

7 We did present public comments. 

8 Glenn Nabors provided them. But I'm not going

9 to read them. You all have them. I printed

10 them out again not knowing that I shouldn't

11 have done that. But not to be no Green. But

12 anyhow, Michelle and Valerie will pass them

13 out.

14 But one of the things that we

15 would like to ask is that in the letter, that

16 this is group is like our company. We're

17 members of this. They are industry folks,

18 companies, that because their customers asked

19 them to petition these materials and represent

20 them, that they would like to see the National

21 Organics Standards Board look at the Sunset

22 materials that are on the 605 and the 606 as
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1 being needed the industry. We represent

2 industry as manufacturers. And industry comes

3 to us, the Jams & Jellies group, you know, our

4 different customers and ask us to support

5 these.

6 So we ask you to support

7 nominating these materials again for sunset. 

8 And, again, I won't read them. It's the

9 materials that we've submitted.

10 And with that, I'm going to

11 conclude. This has been a long day.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

13 (No response.)

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay. 

15 Thank you.

16 MS. Van DYNE: Thanks.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Susan

18 Cheney, Harriett Behar with a proxy, and

19 Nicole Dehne.

20 MS. CHENEY: Hello. I'm Susan

21 Cheney, Director of Regulatory Affairs from

22 Martek Biosciences Corporation.
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1 In light of yesterday's policy

2 change announcement regarding accessory

3 nutrients and the time of day, my comments are

4 going to be brief. Martek will be submitting

5 a petition for our DHA and ARA food

6 ingredients. And we look forward to working

7 with you during a fair and transparent review

8 process.

9 Martek would also like to thank

10 the Program for confirming that ample time

11 will be given to ensure a smooth transition

12 during this policy change. And we will also

13 be submitting further comments regarding the

14 accessory nutrients technical review that was

15 made public today.

16 I've provided Valerie a copy of

17 our original written comments for your review. 

18 And I thank you for your time.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

20 Joe?

21 MEMBER SMILLIE: Could you clarify

22 the use of hexane because that seems to be one
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1 of the areas that I'd like to just find out --

2 get some more information on.

3 MS. CHENEY: Martek employs

4 several different microbial sources to produce

5 our products. And those specific microbial

6 sources will use a different processing

7 method.

8 Our comments will address -- our

9 petition will address these various processing

10 methods that are used with the different

11 microbial sources. In the interest of time,

12 hexane can be used within this process.

13 MEMBER SMILLIE: So hexane, if

14 necessary, but not necessarily hexane.

15 MS. CHENEY: Hexane, depending on

16 the source, may be used.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Other

18 question?

19 (No response.)

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

21 Harriett Behar, Nicole Dehne, I

22 think, and Dave DeCou.
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1 MS. BEHAR: Hello. Long day. But

2 if I don't read my husband's proxy, he'll be

3 very angry.

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: That's

5 okay. We won't tell.

6 MS. BEHAR: What's that?

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: We won't

8 tell.

9 MS. BEHAR: Oh, you won't tell? 

10 He'll find out.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MS. BEHAR: Okay. You should have

13 my comments in front of you, I hope. My name

14 is Harriett Behar and I'm the Organic

15 Specialist for the Midwest Organic and

16 Sustainable Education Services, MOSES, which

17 aids organic and transitioning to organic

18 farmers to improve their farms and the greater

19 environment through organic production.

20 And I have a few short comments on

21 a variety of subjects.

22 I have seen a thread of similarity
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1 through many of the recommendations and

2 discussions posted for this meeting that go

3 back to a long-standing issue since the

4 inception of the NOSB.

5 There is a lack of complete

6 science-based Technical Advisory Panel reviews

7 by competent organizations with a deep

8 understanding of the criteria within the OFPA

9 for materials approval as well as the

10 background in organic production to help them

11 know where and how to compile the information

12 needed to verify compliance to that criteria.

13 The NOSB should not be expected to

14 the research and discovery on any of these

15 materials. You neither have the time nor the

16 expertise in all matters to do these

17 effectively or efficiently.

18 Not only should all new materials

19 have TAB reviews but sunset materials as well. 

20 It is understood that these two reviews would

21 be different since they address different

22 criteria. However the proposal put forth to
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1 have suppliers, users, or others provide

2 information to the NOSB on sunset would not

3 provide the complete and diverse information

4 needed for the NOSB to make their decisions

5 since most organic producers are busy making

6 a living and do not monitor the NOSB process.

7 Items on 606 should also have TAB

8 reviews with another criterion including not

9 only is it currently available but could it

10 become available within a reasonable time. It

11 has been used instead as an excuse to not pre12 contract with possible organic suppliers to

13 make these 606 items since because it is not

14 readily available as organic, they do not need

15 to do the legwork to provide the environment

16 so it could be produced organically.

17 I believe a variety of TAB

18 contractors should be educated by the NOP

19 staff and Emily Brand-Rosen, among others,

20 could help with this task. To expect an

21 organization to be able to take on this unique

22 function of doing TAB reviews without any
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1 training or background results in poor TABs

2 and delayed decisions.

3 The NOSB should ask the NOP to

4 begin this task as soon as possible since to

5 build a variety of well-trained TAB

6 contractors could take years and the sooner we

7 start the better.

8 I support the minority opinion

9 dealing with the feeding of milk from organic

10 animals treated with medicines that have

11 withholding time. Removing the young from the

12 mother for this short amount of time will not

13 affect the bonding process.

14 Unless the farmer only has one

15 animal, there would be other sources of

16 organic milk on the farm for the young. And

17 it is actually common practice for dairy farms

18 to have nurse cows who suckle calves that are

19 not their own offspring.

20 The amount of milk that would be

21 dumped is not huge but the risk to the young

22 fed tainted, non-organic milk from ill mothers
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1 is great.

2 Please consider the points made by

3 the minority opinion and not only the fact

4 that the farmers have to do something with

5 this milk. These young animals are the future

6 organic production stock on the farm and they

7 should be the best, not the second rate

8 products.

9 This milk is not organic for

10 humans or the animals offspring. I do not

11 support the small, Made with organic seal on

12 the back label of the package. Producers who

13 use the Made with organic label may have

14 chosen to go with this designation because

15 they do not want to use a commercially

16 available organic product for economic or

17 other reasons. This should not be rewarded.

18 If there is abuse of the Made with

19 organic label, this should be brought to the

20 attention of the NOP Compliance and

21 Enforcement Division and not dealt with by

22 lessening the value of the USDA organic seal. 
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1 Producers who are in the 95 to 100 percent

2 organic category have earned that prize, not

3 the Made with organic producers.

4 I agree with the sentiments of the

5 Livestock Committee and the frustration as we

6 wait for viable alternatives to methionine. 

7 I also believe that stocking rates and true

8 access to the outdoors on more than just bare

9 ground would also contribute to a lessened

10 need for synthetic methionine in the poultry

11 diet.

12 The management of organic poultry

13 needs to be addressed as well as the current

14 abuses we have occurring where organic birds

15 of all types never see the sun or a blade of

16 grass. The need for synthetic methionine has

17 never been studied in what I would consider a

18 true organic system. So it is difficult to

19 say how much it is really needed.

20 Lastly, as a member of the ACA

21 Apiculture Task Force, I encourage you to

22 review the ACA Apiculture proposed standards. 
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1 I believe you will find this a good starting

2 place to tackle the needs of this unique

3 production system.

4 Now I'm going to go to Aaron's. 

5 I'm just going to talk about honeybees.

6 This is for my husband, Aaron Bin,

7 who is the Inspection Manager at MOSA. So

8 there is a little confusion in the family. I

9 work for MOSES. He works for MOSA.

10 MOSA hopes that the NOSB and the

11 NOP will respond to the needs of organic

12 beekeepers and vendors and develop national

13 organic standards for apiculture. While some

14 of the livestock standards can be applied to

15 apiculture, an insect's life cycle and needs

16 are quite different from animal life and

17 require additional standards in our view.

18 We at MOSA are supportive of the

19 Accredited Certifiers Association guidance on 

20 apiculture published in October 2009. The ACA

21 Apiculture Working Group was a broad-based

22 committee of nine certifiers with
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1 participation of agencies from Hawaii to

2 Vermont. This group struggled with many

3 issues and reached consensus on most of them.

4 Because European and Canadian

5 apiculture standards were published after the

6 NOSB Apiculture Task Force Standard of 2001,

7 this standard needs to be updated. MOSA

8 supports taking into account Canadian and

9 European apiculture standards and harmonizing

10 with these standards where possible.

11 MOSA supports the ACA vision on

12 how wide an area is needed for organic bee

13 forage. ACA guidance has both a forage zone

14 and a surveillance zone. An organic bee

15 forage zone of 1.8 mile radius harmonizes with

16 Canadian and European forage areas while an

17 additional less restrictive surveillance zone

18 with a 2.2 mile radius still maintains the

19 original NOSB concept of a forage zone with a

20 four mile radius.

21 MOSA also supports a one year

22 transition for bee colonies and hive
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1 equipment. At the beginning of the transition

2 period, the bees would be required to draw out

3 wax comb under organic management. Beekeepers

4 now understand that wax absorbs chemicals

5 applied inside and outside the colony,

6 resulting in a toxic bee brood nest and toxic

7 food storage of honey and pollen.

8 We feel that replacement bees

9 purchased to populate hives that could not

10 survive the winter or dearth period could be

11 purchased from conventional sources and

12 managed in organic wax combs with a shorter

13 transition of 60 days.

14 However, we want to limit

15 replacement bees to 25 percent of the hives

16 present in the previous honey flow. This

17 would encourage beekeepers to develop their

18 queen and colony genetics and manage bee

19 diseases and pests so their apiaries could

20 become stronger, healthier, and self

21 sustaining.

22 But finally we believe that pest
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1 control materials to help manage varroa mite

2 infestations should be reviewed and petitioned

3 for addition to the National List. These

4 would include formic acid, thymol, and carbon

5 dioxide.

6 In addition, if folic acid, lactic

7 acid, or oxalic acid become recognized by the

8 EPA for use in honey bees, these materials

9 should also be petitioned and considered for

10 inclusion on the National List.

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

13 Questions?

14 (No response.)

15 MS. BEHAR: Good. Tell them to

16 give TAB reviews.

17 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

18 Nicole, Dave DeCou, and -- Nicole? 

19 No Nicole.

20 MS. FRANCES: Dave already gave up

21 his spot.

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: And Dave
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1 is passing.

2 Moving quickly, the speaker from

3 Earthwise, is she here? Rather than my trying

4 to say that again and get laughed at.

5 Paul Browner? They're dropping

6 like flies.

7 Bob McCain? McClain, I'm sorry.

8 MR. McCLAIN: Thank you. My name

9 is Bob McClain. I'm the Research and Field

10 Director for the California Pear Advisory

11 Board. I'm here to talk about

12 oxytetracycline.

13 And, Valerie, could I have that

14 slide up? I'm not going to go into some of

15 the things that my northwest friend went into. 

16 I'm just going to -- I would like you folks to

17 see some of the photographs of what a blighted

18 orchard looks like.

19 And if you would give us the first

20 one, that is a cluster of pear blooms infected

21 with fire blight. And that is a bud spur with

22 that little yellow thing. Down on the right-
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1 hand side is a blight ooze that insects get

2 into and spread around to other green tissue.

3 Could I have the next one? And

4 that is a pear shoot that is recently

5 infected. And, of course, that's the other

6 green tissue where insects transmit that

7 blight bacteria.

8 That is a small pear, about as big

9 as my little finger or whatever, that is

10 infected with blight bacteria. And that

11 bacteria can be airborne. So it is not a case

12 of just being limited to one tree. If you

13 have a wound, a hail mark, or something like

14 this, a torn leaf or something like that and

15 that bacteria gets into it, it could come from

16 a pear like this.

17 Could I have the next one? And

18 that is -- it's kind of hard to see but all

19 those little flags around the top are blight

20 strikes.

21 Next? And that is the base of a

22 tree like that where the grower has attempted
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1 to scrape away the blight infection out of the

2 cambium but it has also gone down all the way

3 into the ground of the root stock. So that

4 tree is as good as dead.

5 Next please. And that is a

6 salvaged pear tree, I'd say about an eight- or

7 nine-year old tree. And you can see where it

8 has been scraped at the base as well. But

9 they have been able to save it. But they've

10 taken all the scaffolds out of it.

11 All of the fruit-producing wood is

12 gone and you are basically left with sort of

13 a non-producing tree for the next three or

14 four years until you get new shoots to develop

15 new fruit wood out of it.

16 And I'd just like to say a little

17 bit about alternatives to terramycin. One of

18 the things -- I know there was a fellow here

19 talking about Kocide 3000. And we use that

20 conventionally. It does a very good job for

21 us. And hopefully you folks will be able to

22 see that the inner ingredients will comply
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1 with your standards.

2 We use a couple of biologicals,

3 Blight Ban 85-06, and another one called

4 Bloomtime. There is similar colonization,

5 bacteria which colonizes the nectaries of the

6 flowers before the blight bacteria gets into

7 it. And basically it denies the blight

8 bacteria the food source in the nectaries. 

9 The other products we have, of

10 course, are copper products. Coppers tend to

11 russet smooth-skinned pears like the Bartlett,

12 Comice, Seckel, and those varieties, which is

13 actually a great defect in the business as far

14 as USDA is concerned.

15 And then you have the streptomycin

16 which you hear in California has some issues

17 with resistance. And then, of course,

18 terramycin which we have no resistant issues. 

19 And so we're kind of -- we're really concerned

20 in the industry, particularly with the organic

21 people, that they are going to lose their

22 orchards when this product sunsets.
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1 Do you have any questions?

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

3 (No response.)

4 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

5 MR. McCLAIN: Thank you.

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Dan Todd?

7 (No response.)

8 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Tony

9 Avedo, is he still here?

10 (No response.)

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Nancy

12 Cook? Nancy Cook, okay.

13 MR. TODD: Well, thank you for

14 your sitting through all of this testimony. 

15 It can't be easy to do that.

16 My name is Dan Todd. I'm an

17 organic pear grower. I've been doing that

18 since 1986. I'm one of the -- maybe not the

19 first wave but an early generation organic

20 farmer.

21 I had farmed for ten years

22 conventionally. And I switched over to
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1 organic because that was the way I wanted to

2 farm.

3 I realize that the passing

4 diseases don't go away when you become organic

5 like some people would like to think so. They

6 are still there. Some pests become less of a

7 problem, some that you've never heard of or

8 even thought of show up and become

9 devastating.

10 I've had my orchard defoliated by

11 pear slug. I've had pear scab, which is an

12 ongoing problem with pear. They affect my

13 entire crop in those 25 years, three or four

14 times where I couldn't sell any fruit into the

15 fresh market.

16 I had to look at what were my

17 tools, what were my alternatives for

18 controlling things with organic products. And

19 a lot of the early research on organic

20 materials was done on my farm.

21 When I started trying to this,

22 there was nobody to talk to. There was nobody
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1 to say how do you do this, how do you control

2 these pests because there were almost no

3 organic pear growers around. Bill Denevan,

4 who some of you know, is in the back and he

5 was doing that.

6 I worked with the university with

7 Dr. Falcon and Dr. Walter on some of the

8 materials that even conventional growers use

9 today.

10 I'm here to talk specifically

11 about the removal of tetracycline as a tool to

12 control fire blight in pears effective October

13 2012. But before I do, I need to address

14 briefly the NOSB Sunset materials list, some

15 of which are to be reviewed at the spring

16 meeting and some at the fall meeting.

17 All metal sulfur, lime sulfur,

18 horticultural oils, pheromone, coppers,

19 streptomycin, and tetracycline are all on that

20 list, with tetracycline being actually removed

21 effective October 2012.

22 These are the tools that I
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1 discovered I could use when I moved to organic

2 farming. And I've used them, all of these

3 materials, and those are the only materials I

4 have to control most of the pests, insects,

5 and diseases that I face.

6 Without them I could not continue

7 to farm pears organically. It would not be

8 possible.

9 Back to tetracycline. 

10 Tetracycline is a vital tool to control fire

11 blight. You've seen the pictures of the

12 damage that fire blight can do. I have had

13 pear trees with over 200 blight strikes per

14 tree. When you are done pruning that tree

15 what you end up with is a stump about yea big. 

16 That might be all you have left.

17 As a grower that has planted trees

18 and orchards and farmed trees that my

19 grandfather and my father have farmed, that's

20 not a pretty picture. It's not fun to look

21 out there and see all that work be cut down.

22 Last year on June 3rd I was hit
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1 with the worst hailstorm I have ever seen. 

2 Hail as big as my thumb. And I have big

3 thumbs.

4 Besides the damage to the crop,

5 every torn leaf or pear was a potential entry

6 point for the blight bacteria. Within 24

7 hours, I sprayed every part of my 50 acres

8 with tetracycline.

9 As the growing season progressed,

10 I could see that the last areas to be sprayed

11 in that 24-hour period had indeed developed

12 significant blight. That's how critical the

13 timing is of what we do and how we face these

14 problems, these diseases. I sprayed most of

15 the night that night to protect my trees and

16 my crop.

17 This last part, I have a minute

18 left, I am going to take the Board to task a

19 little bit. I believe that this Board's

20 backdoor removal of tetracycline effective

21 October 2012, intentionally bypassing the

22 Sunset review criteria, has taken away an
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1 important material for organic pear growers.

2 Two things were clear to me from

3 reading the transcripts of the November 19th,

4 2008 tetracycline vote. I wish I had time to

5 read more of this to you but the two things I

6 came away with from that, one is that this

7 Board wants to remove tetracycline from

8 organic use. That seems very clear.

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: That was

10 the buzzer also. So wrap -- it was a

11 different buzzer but they both went off.

12 MR. TODD: They were buzzers both

13 for me.

14 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay.

15 MR. TODD: Okay. The second point

16 and I'll wrap this up quickly, the second

17 point is that this decision could not have

18 been made using Sunset review criteria.

19 I end with a quote from Mr.

20 Smillie from that, from the transcript, and

21 stick with the date that we have here to allow

22 the growers hopefully to find some materials
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1 they can use. Now that's not an exact quote

2 because I didn't finish writing it down.

3 But the problem I have is that

4 there are no other materials that we have

5 effectively to use. It effects my life, my

6 home, my family, those kinds of things.

7 You've had people talk about

8 millions of dollars today. That's not me. 

9 I'm a small grower. But you know what? It's

10 my whole life. And I don't know if you have

11 any questions.

12 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Questions?

13 Katrina?

14 MEMBER HEINZE: Perhaps a question

15 for someone on the Crops Committee. I guess

16 I'm a little bit confused. Is there a date? 

17 Because I don't see that it comes off without

18 a separate Sunset.

19 MR. TODD: It's not allowed to

20 just go through the Sunset Review. Or that's

21 the recommendation from the Board. It said it

22 would not --
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Was that -

2 - what is that -- when did that come out,

3 Miles?

4 MR. McEVOY: Yes, there is a

5 proposed rule that went out in --

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: A proposed

7 rule.

8 MR. McEVOY: -- oh, what was that,

9 the comment period closed on May -- March

10 15th, somewhere around there, mid-March, on

11 tetracycline and sulfurous acid. And I

12 believe, Shannon, what the proposed rule had

13 that tetracycline would Sunset -- or not

14 Sunset -- would expire after October 2012. 

15 And that was based on the LSB recommendation

16 from November 2008, I believe.

17 PARTICIPANT: That is right.

18 MS. NALLY: Thank you.

19 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Correct.

20 Any other questions?

21 (No response.)

22 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.
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1 Okay. I don't believe Tony Avedo

2 is here. Nancy Cook and Marty Mesh. Is Laura

3 here to still speak? Okay. Okay.

4 MS. COOK: Well, good afternoon,

5 evening, where I'm from this is pretty late

6 guys.

7 Thank you very much for allowing

8 us all to come in today and talk to the

9 hardest working Board I think I've ever met. 

10 I'm Nancy Cook from Pet Food Institute based

11 in Washington, D.C. And we represent 98

12 percent of the dog and cat food that you find

13 in the US marketplace. And about a percent of

14 that -- percent, percent and a half of that is

15 organic pet food based on our best estimates.

16 Now you think about that for a

17 minute and you say that's not such a big

18 piece. But then you realize that out of a

19 17.5 billion dollar industry, that's about 262

20 million dollars worth of pet food.

21 And the thing that should make it

22 really interesting for this group is fully
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1 half of that 262 million dollars is farm gate

2 sales for producers of organic products.

3 That comes from the co-products of

4 what everybody in this room produces, whether

5 as Dave Carter mentioned earlier this morning,

6 it's the parts from the critter that we have

7 decided we aren't going to eat but our little

8 friends with four legs really like or if it is

9 the guy who is growing organic corn or organic

10 wheat and he's got to do something with the

11 co-products there, we take those co-products

12 and put it into a product that is uniquely

13 formulated to be the complete and balanced

14 diet for that pet.

15 Unlike you and I, the dog or cat

16 that gets fed a commercially-produced pet

17 food, whether it is organic or not, it is all

18 the nutrition that he needs to get out of that

19 food. And he doesn't have to worry about

20 going out and making sure he's got five

21 servings of vegetables and three more servings

22 of fruit. And making sure he's got his dairy
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1 and his protein. We've already done that for

2 him a whole lot easier than we've ever done

3 before in this country or around the world.

4 In addition to that 17.5 billion

5 dollars in sales that we do around the world -

6 - or that we do in the US, we do another 1.3

7 billion around the world. The folks at

8 Foreign Ag Service call us the poster child of

9 value-added agriculture because we take a

10 million dollars in market access program funds

11 and generate 1.3 in sales. It's pretty

12 helpful.

13 What we want to do, as the pet

14 food industry, is we want to be able to

15 support the portion of the industry that is

16 going to make good, solid, wholesome organic

17 pet foods. And that's why we went out and got

18 the best guy we knew to come and negotiate the

19 rapids that are part of the deal with NOP and

20 the NOSB.

21 I've had the opportunity to come

22 speak before this Board on several occasions,
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1 most recently as Chair of the Pet Food

2 Committee that -- or the Pet Food Task Force

3 that you folks put together. And we were

4 happy to build a recommendation that the NOP

5 accepted in 2008. And we were glad to hear

6 that the pet food regs are on the calendar in

7 2011. Thank you Miles, Arthur, and Mark. We

8 really appreciate that.

9 And we also are meeting in our

10 offices the week after next to kind of shake

11 the bushes and make sure those folks are

12 understanding what we have to do on the

13 recommendations for the petitions that we will

14 be filing.

15 So keep us together, expect

16 information from us. Don't hesitate to

17 contact me or Dave or any of the folks that

18 you know are around because we'll do the very

19 best we can for you.

20 And, again, thank you very much

21 for the opportunity to come work with you,

22 come visit with you. And these guys over
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1 here, you have to feel sorry for them because

2 they are probably going to see me fairly

3 often.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MS. COOK: Thanks very much.

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

7 questions?

8 (No response.)

9 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

10 MEMBER SMILLIE: Just thanks for

11 your work. We really appreciate it.

12 MS. COOK: Well, thanks, Joe. We

13 decided a long time ago that the very best

14 thing that we could do as a pet food industry

15 was pay close attention to how the organic

16 program got together so that it would be a

17 good solid program all around.

18 And we appreciate all the work of

19 this Committee. Thanks so much.

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Thank you.

21 Marty?

22 MR. MESH: It's always a bit
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1 intimidating to be the last between this crew

2 and the reception when the Chair especially

3 has suggested to refrain from humor or

4 tangential comments, especially if you are a

5 guy like me. This after I thought we were

6 going in reverse order this meeting so I

7 strategically waited until the end to sign up.

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. MESH: I want to thank Peggy

10 in CCOF for giving me the rest of her unused

11 minutes. To show my appreciation for CCOF, I

12 have passed out a letter from Louis Ocunia and

13 C.F. Rush concerning their support for growers

14 in California and the Northwest and the effort

15 to keep tetracycline on the list.

16 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Marty, you

17 have five minutes.

18 MR. MESH: No, I have the proxy. 

19 Valerie?

20 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: You have

21 your five minutes. You've had all day and all

22 the time to prepare for it.
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1 MR. MESH: You're killing me.

2 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: You have

3 your five minutes.

4 MR. MESH: But stop the clock,

5 Tina.

6 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: You have

7 your five minutes. Thank you.

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. MESH: It was handed to me by

10 Bill Devin, a pioneer California organic

11 farmer who probably I last saw before today in

12 the early or mid-1990s at an NOSB meeting

13 where we were discussing inerts. Given that

14 history and the reality and the fact that I

15 couldn't access the internet and review

16 relevant documents, I stopped writing

17 extensive and technical comments and instead

18 I'm thinking we should focus on getting to the

19 CCOF reception out of frustration and

20 appreciation for Peggy's additional time,

21 which now is being taken away.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. MESH: For the new Board

2 members, my name is Marty Mesh. I'm the

3 Executive Director of Florida Organic Growers

4 and our certification program, Quality

5 Certification Services.

6 I started farming organically in

7 1972. On a larger scale in `76. We formed

8 FOG 20 years ago. And today I serve on the

9 Board of Directors of the ACA, the Southern

10 Sustainable Ag Working Group, and the OTA

11 Board, not to ever say that my comments

12 reflect the opinion of the Organic Trade

13 Association.

14 A warm welcome to the new members

15 and a reiteration of the thank you to Valerie

16 for the years of work and patience you have

17 shown with all of us and me personally.

18 I want to thank the Program for,

19 again, a transparent and full Program report

20 and presentation yesterday. The competency

21 and dedication of the staff is to be

22 commended. And we are thankful for all of the
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1 work.

2 I also want to reinforce and

3 support the preliminary unofficial comments

4 communicated by the Program that seem to lead

5 in the direction that increased pesticide

6 testing mandated in OFPA and identified in the

7 OIG audit may be done by USDA and USDA labs

8 with the cost borne by the increased funding

9 that the NOP has received, which will make it

10 much easier to fulfil the requirements in OFPA

11 and have those results available.

12 They didn't say those exact words

13 but I'm thinking that's what they meant. 

14 Those who want a material should be

15 responsible for making the case to keep it on

16 the list. That's what I've said before. And

17 that position remains true.

18 While I believe institutional

19 memory should be remembered when we talk about

20 more easily updating annotations, the

21 historical time lag and/or dysfunction of an

22 underfunded government regulatory system that
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1 at times can be in conflict with the more

2 immediate needs of farmers and industry is

3 frustrating.

4 While use of annotations were part

5 of the public process, result in the decision

6 to list materials in the first place, to

7 narrow the use of a listed material by

8 tightening up an annotation seems to be a no9 brainer if the only thing that needs to be

10 changed is the Board policy manual.

11 I don't really believe there

12 exists a real alternative to methionine at

13 this point. And if it was taken off the list,

14 I believe we would see many less stores

15 carrying organic eggs but conventional GMO

16 grain, partially made possible by atrazine

17 poisoning our water being used for all

18 natural, free range eggs, which would

19 proliferate.

20 Concerning Urvashi and the CU

21 comments on fish, I want to put in my

22 continuing plug for developing aquiculture
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1 standards for low-hanging or maybe low2 swimming species that are being managed in

3 systems that can again be compliant and

4 certified.

5 I hear again today how honey

6 without specific standards can have a USDA

7 logo on it when almost ten years ago Florida

8 and Texas shrimp producers were told by the

9 then-NOP manager that if they met the

10 standards, were certified they, too, could be

11 a USDA seal on the shrimp.

12 Thus they invested around a half a

13 million dollars. We certified them. They

14 marketed their shrimp. And then had USDA

15 change their mind, order the removal of the

16 USDA logo. They lost their major markets. 

17 And are both now bankrupt.

18 Concerning the hops issues and

19 seeing the frustration of organic hops

20 growers, maybe it would be fitting to just --

21 maybe it would just be fitting to give a quick

22 update on behalf of southern growers who have
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1 been waiting for the petitioner who I

2 advocated against for non-organic IQF okra to

3 be added to the list to get in touch and offer

4 a fair contract and have certified organic IQF

5 okra.

6 I believe that petition discussion

7 was about three or four years ago. And the

8 updates -- no contact ever.

9 I'm almost finished. And I have a

10 proxy. I really do.

11 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: No, you

12 don't. Wrap it up.

13 MR. MESH: The update, no contact

14 ever. Those okra growers are still waiting

15 and the okra continues to grow well

16 organically in the south.

17 One might remember several years

18 ago a film maker being at the NOSB meeting in

19 D.C. When she asked if she could interview me

20 for a film and she said she was making a film

21 about y'all and about organic agriculture and

22 the NOP, I became very interested and
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1 ultimately co-producer of the film.

2 The DVD is done and we're doing

3 screenings at film festivals. And if the

4 community would like to a screening, please

5 get in touch.

6 And then the last closing comment. 

7 One question for John. When you take organic

8 salad greens and you wash them and put them in

9 a sealed up plastic bag that may heat up or

10 even if they don't heat up, do they become

11 synthetic?

12 (Laughter.)

13 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Any

14 questions?

15 Tracy?

16 MS. MIEDEMA: I just have one,

17 Marty. And it's non-okra. I've been saving

18 this one.

19 Do you think chickens are range

20 animals? Are chickens --

21 MR. MESH: We're out of time.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Okay,

2 folks.

3 That brings us to the end of our

4 public comment. Thank you for staying with

5 us. Thank the Board for staying with us.

6 (Applause.)

7 CHAIRPERSON GIACOMINI: Many of

8 you sat through 11 hours. Many of us will now

9 go to Committee meetings where we will look at

10 and evaluate all the inputs we've taken.

11 We're now in recess until eight

12 o'clock tomorrow morning.

13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

14 meeting of the National Organic Standards

15 Board was concluded at 7:12 p.m.)

16

17

18

19 

20 

21

22
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A

Aaron 539:6

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141:20 150:14

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160:20 171:9

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296:4 297:19

334:6 337:2 356:1

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abolish 472:16

above-entitled

109:22 331:14

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absence 162:9

232:3,12,15

366:16 402:7

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absolute 150:22

178:20

absolutely 21:7

28:17 143:9

211:22 221:17

268:20 396:17

397:7 431:2 471:8

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absorbed 412:5

absorbs 541:4

absorption 427:20

abuse 537:18

abused 291:18

abuses 538:14

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290:16 293:21

294:7,9 312:22

538:20,22 539:20

540:11,13 562:9

academic 144:1

academics 140:4

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347:4,6,6

acceptability 90:8

acceptable 41:12

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278:12 389:12

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104:2,12 105:15

105:21 106:1

107:11 109:13

160:16 163:6,11

164:12,17 166:11

173:18 174:17,22

175:5 176:8 180:7

192:21 193:2

195:7 198:2 199:4

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210:22 211:2,4,17

212:9 213:2

223:17 244:18

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56:21 57:3 60:4

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accidental 73:1

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384:21

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313:13 472:20

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344:5 385:10

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accurate 216:20

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achievable 106:7

106:10

achieve 18:4

373:14

achieving 226:9

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acid 29:21 30:5,12

40:5 45:15 94:11

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140:11,16 147:15

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acids 75:18 94:3

138:13,17,18

145:16 146:2

181:4 195:12

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502:3

acknowledge 97:9

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324:20

acknowledgement

236:18 272:3

acknowledging

278:20

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147:11,14 148:8

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acre 188:21 196:11

202:18 387:22

416:19,20 417:10

420:21

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109:2 397:22

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106:21 108:14

189:1 196:10

333:18,19 366:3

366:21 385:5

522:6 551:7

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443:17 477:4

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321:15,20 360:12

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active 52:10 309:2

330:10 405:12

422:1,6 425:12

427:9,15 428:3

434:5,10,14

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actively 492:3

activist 371:19

activists 497:20

activities 114:8

460:13,21 461:1,3

461:22 464:7,13

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254:20 293:1
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308:14 330:6

340:21 475:7

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additional 113:9

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Additionally

308:20

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148:12 158:5

209:5 211:5

226:13 235:19

244:20 256:21

258:20 259:20

260:22 284:20

288:17 305:8

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addressed 13:11

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230:10 257:17

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addresses 135:1

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262:5 320:18

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73:3 107:22 108:3

150:13 154:16

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216:12 263:4

adequately 155:2

227:17 273:17

388:21 389:3

adjoining 25:15

Adjust 496:4

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adjustments 147:2

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administer 232:10

232:13

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211:13

Administration

115:9

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adopt 256:17 343:9

adopted 236:5

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176:3 343:20

373:21 374:3

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311:21 312:1

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534:6 543:10

advocate 301:10

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217:19 566:2

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141:14

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226:16 227:4,12

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Affairs 527:16

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133:20 162:18

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157:3 172:4 173:3

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481:20 495:14

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aid 19:16 301:17

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alcohol 57:13

352:15 357:21

alcoholic 340:22

Aldwinckle 23:1

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495:10 497:12,17

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219:10 225:9,11

225:12 233:11

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67:14 76:6,18

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365:18 370:8,10

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512:13

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162:6 166:17

167:20 173:4

199:15,16,19

200:2,4 201:3

222:22 289:4

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139:8 140:11,16

145:16 146:1

147:15 148:9

180:15 181:4

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amount 28:20

29:12,17 92:20

108:22 111:13

118:21 129:2

180:12 209:1

211:3,7 240:13

253:12 270:7

299:14 301:16,18

302:8 329:13

340:18 429:4

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amounts 141:3

513:10

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61:2,3 290:22

292:11 461:22

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258:10

amylovora 23:4

analog 136:19

analysis 17:13

155:15 290:18

Analyst 454:1

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157:15

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211:19 215:7

216:5,9,19,22

217:5,9 218:3,7,8

218:13,17 222:1

231:11,17,19

232:2 235:11,13

240:14 243:9

284:20,21 285:11

285:15 287:2,7,12

288:13 454:8

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498:15 499:3

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animals 72:1,3

118:20 119:1,15

119:18 199:19,22

200:18 201:12

202:6 215:15

216:13 217:2,3,7

217:21 218:1

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ANNETTE 1:22

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annotation 50:15

53:6,8 58:9

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348:7 485:19

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35:7,10 53:9 54:6

485:15 496:5

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announced 343:6

announcement

31:19 55:13 59:11

60:6 114:11 531:2

annual 22:13 52:12
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ANPR 217:12

answer 18:6 62:12

63:18 90:21

139:11,20 141:5

142:1 167:12

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answers 128:17

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antenna 380:16

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141:9 142:10

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321:11,14 322:13

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53:4,11 55:2,18

57:2,10 58:5 60:1

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88:8 93:16 97:4

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100:19 102:19

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133:10 148:12

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222:3 226:7

261:21 263:3

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310:10 326:7,10

348:6 362:12

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377:7,20 378:12

378:15 380:2

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403:14 405:17,19

409:4 414:16

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427:7 436:12

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465:10 470:17

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Board's 15:11

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Bob 192:15 310:19

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290:10 293:9

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Boxer 340:8

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Branch 443:15

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309:19 340:13

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brands 334:16

brandy 353:8

Brand-Rosen

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bread 86:16 90:21

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break 103:19

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briefly 117:18

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collecting 17:10

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Colorado 340:6

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columns 94:11

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combination

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137:19,22 138:22

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155:16 170:16

171:10 193:10,14

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270:21 296:20

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363:17 367:19

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398:15 405:7

407:15 414:4

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453:9 476:1

486:14 488:6,8

495:4 505:9 528:4

528:11 544:15

554:2 555:8

557:18,21 558:21

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45:2 76:4 89:7

104:19 121:20

122:9 136:8 171:2

193:8 230:7 233:9

272:22 279:20

311:16 355:1

392:16 401:1

453:5 482:5

508:21 530:2

553:17 556:3

comfort 274:21

comfortable

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148:5 149:20

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238:8 254:14

265:18 331:10

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215:21 216:2

231:3 274:13

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384:9 408:11

423:12 428:20

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89:18 92:11 97:2

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104:5 110:17,20

120:3,4 130:17

148:11 150:19

157:12 190:22

197:19 214:13

215:20 225:19,20

226:2 232:6

237:15,19 261:15

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Coordinator 289:5

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Cornucopia 103:13

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Cougar 24:9

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276:15 284:19

306:4,9 309:16

315:3 386:2

415:22 418:16

432:16 442:2

452:15 457:3,12

458:4 476:2,7

482:21 486:17

487:12 500:2,5,10

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131:4 201:18

225:22 226:2

229:16 233:1

267:8 276:7 277:5

277:7,10 279:1

303:11 305:5

386:3 452:8,9

455:2 479:18

484:8 510:22

517:11 553:15

cross 64:8

crossing 224:8

Crossley 31:7 38:4

38:6,7 42:18

crossroads 273:21

crowd 265:3

crowded 185:17

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crown 23:17,22

crucial 195:11

262:20 294:14

crude 212:19

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175:2 190:6 194:3

249:10 267:11

282:5,21 301:20

301:22 329:20

336:2,4,22 337:14

337:15 340:15,16

341:15 342:8,10

342:19 343:2

345:7,10,17,18

351:3,4,14,15

354:16,17 355:4,8

362:3 364:22

366:4 367:11,16

367:19 368:14

370:4 385:2,6

391:21 392:5

395:4,8 396:22

399:2,19,20,21

416:17 422:13,13

422:14,15 466:21

467:5,7,10,16

468:11,12,18

469:5 471:7 472:3

472:14 473:5

474:16 479:2

480:19 500:3

538:1 541:15

555:12,13,14,14

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144:9 150:4,9

156:7 301:21

358:1 364:21

percentages 356:15

perception 97:2

182:16 368:10

504:18

perch 162:20 168:6

perfect 99:17

261:10 409:17

perfectly 322:19

performance

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performed 128:14

period 4:6 19:5

24:2,12 47:1 50:4

61:14,14 77:11

213:14 215:19

237:19 238:13

292:17 325:6,10

341:10 384:9

403:14 447:8

450:14 482:4

489:11 491:2

506:2 541:2,10

551:11 554:9

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458:20

permanent 441:4

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permission 271:10

permit 212:11

440:2,18 447:10

449:11

permitted 302:5

342:11 345:16

440:14

person 3:9,13,15

4:4,15,17 9:9

71:17 165:7 271:8

312:8 364:14

417:4

personal 4:9 14:18

81:19 82:16 99:4

171:6 333:12

520:8 521:15

524:2 525:11

526:4

personally 175:19

199:5 203:22

220:2 361:4 417:4

466:12 562:17

Persons 3:11

perspective 75:4

93:7 152:4 210:19

391:15 417:6

519:17

perspectives

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135:5

pertilitic 330:9

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318:5 379:15

387:11 402:15

438:21 444:18

451:6 541:22

pesticide 29:2

69:14 317:21,22

324:8,9 368:3

442:9 455:6 563:5

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273:2 298:10

325:20 402:12

408:1 425:7

443:14 499:1

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549:2 550:4

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234:13 235:3,9,9

235:22 236:3

238:16 239:1

524:22 555:10,15

555:20 556:14,16

557:13,17 558:1,2

558:6 559:14

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53:10 64:15 65:2

65:2 147:16 158:6

219:22 230:15

241:9 242:8 266:7

267:15 279:9

283:8 307:9 310:1

310:9 317:6

337:22 339:21

340:3 348:5

349:19 362:11

371:20,21 373:7

377:5 378:12,14

379:10,18 382:11

382:15 383:6,13

384:5,7 386:12

392:20 424:22

427:5,13 434:17

434:21 436:14

438:6,14,18 439:3

439:15 448:17

450:18 453:4

484:18 489:18

491:8 494:5

527:19 528:9

529:19 531:5

532:9 566:6

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281:16 282:9

406:15 433:14

435:1 499:12

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362:8

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489:15,21 510:21

558:13

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360:13,14

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503:21

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316:20 425:8,12

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426:18,21 427:8

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82:6 89:2 103:3

113:20 117:4

131:5 143:13,19

149:1 153:4,22

154:2 163:5 179:7

181:1 198:4 205:5

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221:19 226:18

237:14 241:14

257:19 274:1,10

290:6 297:11

298:16,18 314:10

315:19 322:1,22

324:21 325:16

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173:5 188:8 264:8

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323:3 349:17

352:9,17 365:10

365:10 373:2

383:21 388:8

401:5 402:10

405:16 406:9

410:17 412:3,12

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483:9 492:21

497:6 499:6

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380:5 402:19

508:11 514:9

weaken 73:14

214:21

weakened 72:15

wealthy 199:7

wearing 286:2

weather 26:13

188:12 212:10

399:5

website 129:10

199:16 385:11

403:6 412:7

429:17 434:12

Wednesday 13:5

week 33:4 52:20

114:19 494:18

498:8 558:10

weeks 148:15 152:7

155:9 159:7,7,9

159:14,16,18

173:3 193:7 198:1

205:5 211:14,15

211:18 220:14,19

Wegman's 197:14

weigh 115:16

117:11

weight 210:5

216:19 217:4,6

220:17

weights 210:3

weird 496:2

welcome 10:13

13:2 33:16 43:8

49:1,4 116:6

132:2 207:14

219:13 233:21

562:14

welcomed 16:20

welfare 16:17

112:2 167:17

171:17 172:8,9

182:21,22 183:1

193:2 194:22

199:17 200:1

216:5,22 222:2

240:14 284:20,21

285:9,11,16 287:7

498:15 502:21

505:8

well-being 214:11

287:2

well-established

43:17

well-trained 536:5

Wendy 1:20 176:6

went 7:14,22 8:18

86:9 93:21 110:1

117:20 139:16

206:3 213:8

244:10 256:19

277:5 283:8

291:21 327:12

331:15 334:8

362:9 437:16

475:11,14,14,15

490:5 525:19

543:15 552:11

554:5 557:17

weren't 63:8

156:16 403:20

501:3

west 10:12 171:8

181:22

Western 387:4

wet 484:19

wetlands 259:16

wetness 24:11

we'll 3:3,8 6:19 8:8

16:8 31:22 32:7,8

38:4 89:17 103:18

107:6 108:20

140:20 141:9,19

146:17 147:4,8

154:1 155:9,14

168:16 170:14,16

197:8 206:2 233:4

233:8 239:17

260:14 263:15,21

331:10 335:21

350:14 376:6

379:8 389:15

398:18 420:2

424:6,11 453:9

472:5 487:16

558:18

we're 6:7 8:15

10:16 21:5 34:16

34:22 35:3 42:21

47:13 48:17 52:8

57:20 61:7,12,16

62:7,17,20 63:2,6

63:12 64:10,14,21

65:10 66:10,13

67:2,11 69:4

70:17 74:10 82:13

82:14 87:1 95:6

95:13,14,16,18,18

95:19 98:9 103:18

107:1,2 108:5,16

108:19 111:1

112:14 114:5

117:8 118:13

122:8 123:21

124:20,20 125:3

129:19 130:19

131:13,15 137:13

137:17,18 138:6

138:12,20 139:20

139:22 142:3,11

144:10 146:7,13

146:20 148:14

150:6,21 152:7

154:12 155:9,10

157:13 159:6

162:9 163:7,9

166:6 178:10,15

179:2 180:14,15

184:20 186:9,10

187:15,18 191:14

195:5 196:9

205:21 207:4,7,8

221:8 222:17

230:12 236:9

242:10 243:11

247:13 262:21

267:14 273:21

275:18 278:2,3,19

282:12 283:17,20

283:21 286:2

293:6 295:19

317:6 324:18

331:6,8,9,19

337:12 346:15

362:6,8 370:6

379:3 391:13,21

392:13,16 397:8

399:11 400:6

403:15 404:13

412:16 417:13,17

417:17 437:7

438:10 475:2

478:17 479:5

480:7,8,16 484:9

486:2,7 493:11

507:2 518:12

525:14 529:1,16

546:19,19 567:2

567:21 568:11

we've 3:7 6:4 10:18

12:4 21:5 22:14

28:18 30:19 34:21

56:4 57:11 69:5

75:7 78:13 91:3

107:11,14,14,17

107:20 109:5

112:16,17,17

122:11 123:13

124:4,19 125:4,10

128:8 134:20

135:3,11 136:5,6

136:6 137:2

141:21 142:15

147:9 152:2,11,12

153:19,19,19

160:6 171:6 179:6

179:8,9 182:22

183:2 191:15

192:4 195:16

200:8 207:4 222:5

240:19 266:14

274:11,16 284:18

308:20 331:1,4

338:21 362:2

363:11 371:13

375:17 397:2

402:7 404:3

405:15 412:11

415:12 423:6

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526:20 528:3

530:9 557:1,2

568:10

whatnot 30:21

whatsoever 37:9

429:3

wheat 88:2 397:15

477:21 556:10

whip 33:20

white 55:9 353:6

520:15

Whitmeyer 324:7

wholesale 293:19

373:22 463:2

wholesalers 260:16

260:18

wholesome 557:16

wholly 489:7

492:14

wide 111:11 136:14

176:10 312:2

540:12

widely 321:9

Wideman 256:8

264:21 284:11,13

284:14

widespread 24:15

229:18

wide-reaching

293:3

wife 171:9,19 186:6

wild 189:9 211:7,8

211:8 227:9

256:10,12 321:15

433:6,9

wildlife 259:17

wildly 394:21

willing 27:21 107:8

107:15 116:6

436:7 504:12
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436:13,18,20

437:1

win 437:9

wind 24:8

winding 77:9

windows 188:11

winds 169:11

wine 331:11 332:1

332:1,9,20,21,22

333:5 334:3,11,13

334:17,21 335:7

335:10,10 336:16

338:9,10,12,12,13

338:22 339:6,7

340:7,10 341:14

341:21,22 342:6

342:15 343:4,8,10

343:12,22 344:15

344:22 345:4,4,8

345:17,19,21

346:18,18 347:6,7

347:13,14 349:4

350:11 351:7

352:14 353:2,2,4

353:6,6,6,9,10,12

353:21 354:1,9,11

354:15,19 355:2

356:8 357:3,15

358:19,21 359:6

359:22 360:4,9,13

360:14,16,19

361:1,12 365:9

366:7,9,12,17,22

367:5,19 368:6,12

368:16,16,18

369:19

wineries 334:15

361:20 366:8

368:15 369:12

winery 351:22

354:3 359:5,16

wines 334:4,12

335:1,9 338:21

339:2 340:2,12,13

340:15,20 342:2

342:10 343:17

345:8 346:4

350:20 351:1

352:1,7,10 353:22

355:3,3 356:17

358:19 359:4,8

360:2 361:4,22

362:2 368:7

winning 523:1

winter 134:3

165:14 183:14

204:22 541:10

wintertime 131:11

wire 421:13

wireless 21:2

Wisconsin 121:12

284:16 459:21

wisdom 470:17

wise 210:21

wish 190:22 328:4

392:4 413:5 486:6

486:9,11,11 552:4

wishes 37:22

wit 317:22

withdraw 467:1

withhold 15:7

58:19 59:2

withholding 215:7

215:9,17,19 506:2

536:11

Wolf 382:2 391:6

400:19 401:4

409:2,11,14 410:2

410:11 413:2,7,11

413:14,17,20,22

wonder 75:19

wondered 59:17

wonderful 177:9

185:22 336:9

wondering 40:7

126:15 195:19

276:5 430:8,16

wonderment

101:10

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438:13 443:22

444:16 446:19

447:1,12,18 449:8

449:12,15,17

450:11,19 451:13

451:16 453:11

wood 545:11,15

Woodbridge

300:15

Woodland 1:12

244:14

woodlands 259:16

word 67:22 68:3,7

69:16 116:18

265:8 283:16

334:4 461:14,16

wording 229:20

232:9 481:10

words 99:6 120:5

140:9 291:4

329:19 388:9

412:11 425:21

563:12

work 15:2 33:18

38:9,11 49:15

50:8 54:8,21

56:15 61:9,9 62:4

83:17 99:22 100:4

112:16 121:11

129:16,16 132:3

139:14 145:17

151:18 152:9

161:20 169:13

170:15 177:8,15

214:3 220:7 223:8

230:1 234:3

236:10 240:9,20

258:9 261:7 264:5

272:11 275:11,14

295:11,17 299:14

315:14,21 316:7

317:12 349:12

367:15 369:11

371:5 373:21

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378:22 388:7

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539:9 550:21

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474:12 476:10

493:9,10 531:6

539:21 555:9

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works 111:7

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420:18 426:4

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518:2 522:14

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worried 175:20

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worse 523:1

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worth 428:16

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281:22 337:3

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552:10,16 566:12

wreck 52:2 486:15

wrestling 182:18

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written 3:14 5:1

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15:9 37:11 107:7

120:3 144:7

148:11 192:17

197:20 224:17

225:4 227:17

232:6 266:20
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298:2 332:20

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59:11,12 75:18

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235:18 236:19

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305:7 321:12

322:13 562:20

yesterday's 531:1

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125:3 139:17

151:11,21,21

260:2

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yields 123:6 124:6

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yolks 501:18

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195:13 211:2,5,10

211:20 212:1

215:5,7 217:8

332:9 536:11,16

536:21 537:5

your's 165:10

you/pull 380:21

y'all 566:21

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Z 390:18

ZD 340:1 351:19

358:9,19 359:4

Zea 256:7 264:20

264:22 265:14

307:14

Zealand 371:8

389:20 440:18

Zea's 293:12

zero 94:12 95:2

433:17

zinc 520:8

zip 184:19

zone 73:3 296:5

540:13,14,15,17

540:19

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Zuck 431:10 437:8

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$15 372:16

$2.6 300:18

$27 397:5

$40 210:14

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02 52:10

09 221:15

1

1 24:21 35:13

368:14 404:15

406:22

1,000 190:12 522:6

1,300 284:16

1,560 190:5

1,770 225:16

1,800 366:3

1.2 166:19 209:20

1.3 557:6,11

1.5 166:18 223:1

399:19

1.8 173:10 209:20

540:15

1/2 124:17

1:00 206:2

1:01 206:5

1:02 207:2

10 4:6 10:16 28:19

43:6 146:17

182:14 197:16

332:16 356:16

365:6 385:5 386:6

429:18 433:16

437:12

10th 299:22 387:22

416:17

10,000 376:14

392:4 522:6

10-day 428:19

10-13 151:20

10:00 109:21

10:10 110:2

100 17:22 19:9,16

20:15 83:3,11

85:6 102:7 116:3

116:13 118:19

173:5 176:20

196:10 208:1

267:11 282:5,21

336:2 337:14

340:16,19 341:15

343:2 345:17

361:13,16 362:3

370:4 385:2

391:21 392:5,15

396:22 399:2

422:4 466:21

467:4,7,10,16

468:10,11,18

469:5 471:7 472:3

472:14 473:5

474:16 538:1

100,000 376:11

100-acre 22:5

101 80:2

104.20 235:6

105 362:5,21

106 362:5,21

11 71:14 568:8

11:46 206:4

12 4:15 125:15

492:6 494:12

12th 72:17

12.9 124:11

120 105:18 225:16

338:21

13 172:18 371:13

130 39:15

130,000 105:10
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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

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135 271:21

14 354:16,16

428:15

1487 345:1

15 48:20 108:1

194:3 211:14

333:22 334:19,20

339:15 375:11

15th 44:8 554:10

15-foot 107:17

150 396:1

150,000 190:4

150-year-old 425:5

16 23:7 76:1 288:12

339:15

16S 137:3

16,184 498:18

16-acre 22:8

16.1 288:5

166 41:21,22

17 189:19 272:6

17.5 555:19 557:4

175 186:14

18 271:18 272:4

395:4 439:13

180.950 408:22

186 52:4

19th 552:3

190,000 165:5

1940s 208:9

1950s 208:10

1962 1:12

1968 366:1

1969 359:6

1972 562:7

1985 359:12

1986 547:18

1989 121:14

1990 244:16

1991 43:6 244:7

1993 266:14 476:9

1994 474:3

1995 26:16 236:15

1996 327:14 359:14

370:13

1997 370:11 460:1

1998 160:6

1999 359:12

2

2 35:21 312:16

314:18 328:5,5

345:7 406:10

430:3 447:2

449:19

2B 458:14

2nd 44:5

2,000 246:10 280:9

2,100 10:5

2,300 466:8

2,500 333:19

2.2 540:18

2.5 288:6

2.88 150:16

2:59 331:15

20 8:18 10:22 118:8

119:14 164:11

187:7 190:6 306:1

562:8

20-25 166:14

200 365:12,15

375:6 550:13

200,000 172:3

2000 38:8 49:9

217:17 271:18,18

470:9

2001 294:1 340:8

359:16 540:6

2002 51:1,22 190:3

234:8 269:20

271:17 521:22

524:6

2003 43:18 521:19

2004 26:17 43:13

51:4 54:15,16,18

234:11 236:2

256:16 269:11

324:10,15,19

325:6,19 435:15

474:7

2005 49:9 477:6

523:22 524:2

2006 111:10 236:21

260:13 312:14

324:14,15 325:19

426:20

2007 46:19 57:11

236:22 382:17

386:20 387:21

489:10

2008 10:21 11:3

26:4 43:19 154:13

236:5 367:1

415:22 552:4

554:16 558:5

2009 15:4 26:5,6

72:12 293:19

300:18 341:4

350:17 382:11

385:8 512:11

539:20

2010 1:8 44:5 50:12

133:11 385:3,7

406:22 435:16

498:12 502:18

2011 558:7

2012 52:1,7 149:2

370:17 374:10

376:6 400:5,14

549:13,21 551:21

554:14

2013 46:22

205 496:6

205.101(b) 460:15

462:10 463:14,19

464:5,14

205.101(c) 462:5

205.101(c)(i)

464:16

205.2 7:3 478:18

205.200 259:10,13

262:13

205.204(a)(i) 228:2

205.236 217:10,12

205.238 58:15

214:16 215:14

205.238(c)(ii) 232:2

205.238(c)(i) 231:8

205.270 478:19

205.270(a) 478:16

478:17

205.304 18:10

205.601 7:6

205.601(h) 425:21

205.603 215:1,6,17

205.605 234:16

235:6 467:15

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205.605(a) 44:18

252:9 255:6

205.605(b) 254:17

346:4 361:11

205.606 45:6 46:16

252:9 254:8

370:16

206.053 232:11

207(a) 496:6

21 217:16

21st 52:10

21-day 450:13

211 249:1

2118 510:7

22 191:15 368:15

381:1 434:13

23 151:14

238 287:1

238(c)(ii) 232:9

238(c)(i) 505:20

24 439:13 551:6

24C 447:7,14

449:10,21 450:3

24-hour 551:11

25 332:9 340:14

360:15 371:10,11

422:15 541:15

548:13

25th 506:7,12

25(b) 408:21

250 189:15,16

455:12

26 23:16 49:14

361:6

262 555:19 556:1

27 1:8 148:15 159:7

159:7,14,16,18

220:14,19

28 42:1 124:13

3

3 13:14 35:14,20

51:22 124:15

128:20 272:3

313:4 328:5

406:21 423:19

447:15 449:14

450:10

3rd 550:22

3,000 180:8 196:4,6

197:3

3,500 110:13

3.3 360:15

3.5 210:4 345:10

3.6 360:16

3.7 360:16

3.8 210:4

3:00 331:5

3:10 331:9

3:11 331:16

30 171:22 205:5

342:10,18 351:3

351:15 365:13

422:14,15

30th 352:3

30,000 198:22

385:5

30-second 203:10

399:17

300 63:6 208:3

513:3

3000 422:10 545:19

31st 46:22

32,000 172:13

173:21

33 382:8

35 172:17 174:12

175:2 288:3

35-acre 151:10

350 10:6 340:20

361:20 362:18

364:18

36 11:4 205:16

365 164:17

38 136:7 466:8

392 190:14
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4 51:22 325:1,5

364:22 414:9

415:13,16,17

426:14 430:20

435:6,7,15 455:1

4,000 22:12

4:59 437:16

40 193:7 352:3

361:7 363:7 500:3

40-acre 151:13

400 202:18

400-800 152:15

405 190:13

41 341:9

45 193:7 295:17

416:19

450 366:21

46 300:175 5 44:21

5,000 173:22

390:18

5:00 331:6 431:9

5:11 437:17

50 152:11 360:17

422:13,13 551:7

55 334:15,16

58 395:8

6

6 210:5

6,000 365:8

60 158:15,15 205:9

429:19 541:13

60-day 61:13

237:19

600 284:17 372:2

601 276:14 291:11

477:10 481:4,8

602 481:5

603 7:6 234:17

291:12 481:8

506:2

605 42:3 234:20

403:11,22 404:1,8

457:22 471:12,16

471:19 472:6

478:3,8,9 479:1

480:2,4 481:9

482:11,12 484:20

484:22 485:11,18

529:22

605(a) 482:1,15

495:21

605(b) 482:1,15

605-606 7:7

606 42:3 378:15

379:13 381:2

382:13 385:11

387:20 396:19

404:1,9 477:11

478:9 480:3 481:9

482:12 484:20

485:1,18 529:22

535:7,13

66 151:11

671 444:19 452:19

452:20,217

7 13:6 313:4 328:5

328:5,5 425:20

7:12 568:15

70 99:19 116:7

189:7 336:4,22

342:8 351:3,13

367:11 429:19

70,000 188:22

70/30 336:11

700 189:1 196:10

700-acre 196:8

702 354:13

73 212:1

75 105:19,22 108:4

165:9 366:7

75,000 22:13

76 562:7

8

8 124:16 210:5

312:16 341:4

8th 382:11

8,767 498:20

8:00 1:11 331:5

8:03 3:2

80 10:7 118:3

119:13 161:1

170:11

80s 362:14 364:8

82 150:2,4 450:13

836 214:6

84 366:2

85-06 546:3

87 123:20 151:19 9 9 22:18 23:15 397:6

407:2 409:8

9:00 187:15

9:51 110:1

90 151:19

90s 176:21 179:5

403:20

900 190:11 280:6

900,000 497:19

93 26:1 280:11

95 116:13 177:5

337:14 355:4

366:4 367:16,19

408:2 538:1

95.5 482:3

96 4:13 26:1

96.8 190:14

98 555:11

99 173:5 345:17

399:20

99.5 399:21

99.999 355:8