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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE (AMS)

 NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM (NOP)

 + + + + +

 MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIC

 STANDARDS BOARD (NOSB)

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY

 APRIL 29, 2014

 + + + + +

 The National Organic Standards

Board convened at 8:30 a.m. at the Saint

Anthony Hotel, 300 East Travis Street, San

Antonio, Texas, Mac Stone, Chairperson,

presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

ROBERT "MAC" STONE, Chairperson

JOHN FOSTER, Vice Chairperson

CALVIN WALKER, NOSB Secretary

HAROLD AUSTIN

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

JOSEPH DICKSON

TRACY FAVRE

JAY FELDMAN

WENDY FULWIDER

NICHOLAS MARAVELL

JEAN RICHARDSON

ZEA SONNABEND

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE
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STAFF PRESENT:

MILES McEVOY, Deputy Administrator, National

 Organic Program

ANN MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board

 Specialist

MELISSA BAILEY, Director, Standards

 Division, National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, Standards Division, National

 Organic Program
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS

Call To Order 4

Introductions, NOSB Mission 24

Secretary's Report 29

NOSB Assessment 40

Policy Development 84

Materials Update 99

National Organic Program (NOP) Report 196

Organic Agriculture at USDA 243

Presentation by the National Resource

Conservation Service 265

Public Comment 291

Adjourn 459
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:06 a.m.)

3 MR. McEVOY: Okay, we're going to

4 get started here. Good morning. Thank you

5 all for coming. I would like to open the

6 spring 2014 National Organic Standards Board

7 meeting.

8 MEMBER FELDMAN: Point of order,

9 Mr. Chair. Point of order.

10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Don't

11 change sunset. Don't change sunset. Don't

12 change sunset

13 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Don't change

14 sunset. Don't change sunset. Don't change

15 sunset. Don't change sunset. Don't change

16 sunset. Don't change sunset. Don't change

17 sunset. Don't change sunset.

18 CHAIR STONE: Thank you all.

19 Thank you all for bringing that to our

20 attention.

21 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Don't change

22 sunset. Don't change sunset. Don't change
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1 sunset.

2 CHAIR STONE: I think you all have

3 made - made your point. At this time we will

4 recess the meeting.

5 (Whereupon the above-entitled

6 meeting went off the record at 9:03 a.m. and

7 resumed at 9:06 a.m.)

8 MR. McEVOY: Okay. We're going to

9 get started again. So --

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: Point of order --

11 MR. McEVOY: -- again --

12 MEMBER FELDMAN: Point of order,

13 Mr. Chair.

14 MR. McEVOY: Yes, what? Thank

15 you, Jay.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. With

17 deep respect for your work, Mr. Chair, and the

18 work of this Board, and your outstanding work

19 in the community, I wanted to raise of point

20 of order, please, that your chairing of this

21 meeting is out of order.

22 It does not comply with the fact
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1 that the underlying legislation, OFPA, the

2 Organic Foods Production Act, Section 2119, 7

3 USC 6518, the National Organic Standards Board

4 Chairperson, subsection G, The Board shall

5 select a chairperson for the Board, or the

6 FACA rule, Final Rule 41 CFR Parts 101.6 and

7 101.2, which says that this Board must operate

8 under clear operating procedures.

9 The FACA rule also finds that the

10 chair, if it shall be a member of the

11 government, an official of the government such

12 as yourself, Mr. Chair, shall be appointed by

13 an agency head. This Board has received no

14 such letter to that effect. And that there

15 shall be clear rules in effect. This Board

16 has, nor this community, has received any such

17 rule.

18 And in fact, in your February 27

19 memo to the National Organic Standards Board

20 training summary, you state FACA requires that

21 AMS and NOP guidelines for managing the NOSB

22 provide clear operating procedures for the
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1 conduct of advisory committee meetings and

2 other activities, and describe the roles of

3 the advisory committee members, the DFO and

4 the staff.

5 You have not done so, Mr. Chair.

6 And given that, and given the failure to

7 comply with both the underlying enabling

8 legislation and the FACA final rule, I would

9 urge you, and I demand that we turn the gavel

10 back over to the selected chair under our

11 current operating procedures, as captured on

12 page 13 and 14 in the PPM, which outlines the

13 officers' responsibilities, including the

14 election of the chair and selection by the

15 Board. In officer responsibilities, it says,

16 The chair is responsible -- please listen to

17 this carefully -- is responsible to assure the

18 integrity of the Board process including

19 effectiveness of the meetings and the Board's

20 adherence to its own rules. The chair shall,

21 among other things, convene and preside at

22 meetings.
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1 So while I have deep respect for

2 you, Mr. Chair, and your long history of

3 commitment and work to the organic community,

4 I also respect the history of this Board and

5 the processes that we have engaged in. I

6 respect the previous Boards, I respect the

7 members around this table, and I believe we

8 should revert back to our PPM and procedures

9 until such time as the USDA National Organic

10 Program, AMS, issues rules with clarity that

11 establish a new procedure and goes through the

12 appropriate public process to adopt those.

13 Thank you very much.

14 MR. McEVOY: Thanks, Jay. So --

15 (Applause.)

16 MR. McEVOY: -- I just want to

17 point out that in -- under FACA and under the

18 NOSB's policies and procedures manual, that it

19 specifically says that the Designated Federal

20 Officer, who I am the Designated Federal

21 Officer for the National Organic Standards

22 Board, can chair the meeting when directed by
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1 the Secretary of Agriculture or the

2 Secretary's designee. That's right from the

3 NOSB policies and procedures manual. And also

4 under FACA, it's our responsibility as the

5 Designated Federal Officer to open the

6 meeting. That has been a responsibility that

7 we haven't done in past meetings, but it's a

8 requirement under FACA that we follow that.

9 So we'll continue on here with

10 opening up the meeting, and --

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: -- order, Mr.

12 Chair. I appeal from the decision of the

13 Chair, and I ask for a second.

14 MEMBER BONDERA: I second that

15 appeal.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Mr. Chair, I

17 believe we have the authorization now to move

18 forward with debate among all the Board

19 members, which requires the Board -- a vote of

20 this Board to continue this meeting under

21 rules that are yet to be written or procedures

22 that have not been published or discussed with
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1 the public.

2 (Pause.)

3 MR. McEVOY: Okay. So let's hear

4 the discussion.

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: You are -- under

6 the rules, Mr. Chair, you are welcome to

7 introduce the issue, make your comment and

8 then call on Board members, if they would like

9 to comment, and then close the session. Thank

10 you.

11 MR. McEVOY: So, Zea.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Since we're

13 being all Robert's Rules, I'd like to call the

14 question.

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: Out of order.

16 Point of order.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'd like to

18 proceed with the meeting, so I'd like to call

19 the question. Thank you.

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: Mr. Chair, we

21 have a motion on the table that requires a

22 vote of the Board. We are allowed to debate
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1 the issue, Mr. Chair, so I's appreciate it if

2 you follow the rules and ask any Board members

3 if they have any comments on this.

4 MR. McEVOY: Okay. So the

5 question's been called so it ends debate, and

6 the question's on the table then.

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: I appeal from the

8 decision of the Chair which authorizes a

9 discussion and a vote of the Board --

10 requires, requires a discussion --

11 MR. McEVOY: No, we already

12 asked --

13 MEMBER FELDMAN: -- and vote of

14 the Board.

15 MR. McEVOY: -- for discussion, so

16 we -- and then the question's been called, so.

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'd like to

18 discuss this.

19 MR. McEVOY: So Jay, you've made

20 your opening statement, and --

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Right.

22 MR. McEVOY: Are there further
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1 points that people would like to make on this

2 issue?

3 (No audible response.)

4 MR. McEVOY: If not, then the

5 question's on the table. All those in favor?

6 (No audible response.)

7 MR. McEVOY: All those opposed?

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Aye.

9 MR. McEVOY: Please restate the

10 motion. So the motion is -- Jay, can you

11 repeat the motion?

12 MEMBER FELDMAN: The motion on the

13 table is that we revert to the policies and

14 procedures adopted by the Board of -- by the

15 NOSB Board and revert the chair, the power of

16 the chair, the power of the chairperson to the

17 person selected by the Board to run this

18 meeting, convene this meeting and run this

19 meeting in accordance with the policies and

20 procedures manual.

21 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Everybody got

22 that? All those in favor?
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1

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: Aye.

3 MEMBER BECK: Aye.

4 MEMBER TAYLOR: Aye.

5 MR. McEVOY: We've got four ayes.

6 All those opposed?

7 MALE PARTICIPANT: Aye.

8 MALE PARTICIPANT: Aye.

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'll ask for a

10 roll call, please, Mr. Chair. I ask for a

11 roll call, please.

12 MR. McEVOY: All right. Let's

13 start with Francis.

14 MEMBER THICKE: Aye.

15 MR. McEVOY: Wendy?

16 MEMBER FULWIDER: Aye.

17 MR. McEVOY: Nick?

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: Abstain.

19 MR. McEVOY: Tracy?

20 MEMBER FAVRE: Abstain.

21 MR. McEVOY: Carmela?

22 MEMBER BECK: Could I get
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1 clarification on the vote, how I'm voting.

2 I'm voting against that.

3 MR. McEVOY: You're asking for

4 clarification on the motion?

5 MEMBER BECK: Yes, one more time.

6 I'm sorry. It's really long.

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: The motion is to

8 revert to the PPM and confer the duties of the

9 chair back to the selected chair of the NOSB.

10 MR. McEVOY: Okay.

11 MEMBER BECK: That's a no.

12 MR. McEVOY: Hold on just a minute

13 here.

14 (Pause.)

15 MR. McEVOY: We're going to take a

16 five minute recess so we can understand the

17 process here. So I apologize for that, but

18 we'll get started in a few minutes.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

20 matter went off the record at

21 9:17 a.m. and went back on the

22 record at 9:19 a.m.)
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1 MR. McEVOY: So, thank you very

2 much, Jay. Your motion is not a debatable

3 ruling, so we're going to continue on here

4 with introductory statements. And we're

5 going to get into this in a lot of detail in

6 terms of FACA and the Organic Foods Production

7 Act and the NOSB policies and procedures

8 manual. That's part of the introductory

9 remarks.

10 Okay. Nice music, but --

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: May I just make a

12 statement to close this out?

13 MR. McEVOY: Sure.

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

15 MR. McEVOY: Please.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you, Miles.

17 Obviously, you know, there's --

18 the word I got was that the meeting might have

19 to be closed down if we couldn't resolve this,

20 so it's not my intent to close the meeting

21 down. The most important part of this meeting

22 is hearing from the organic community on all
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1 these important issues.

2 I do believe this issue remains

3 unresolved, and I do believe very strongly

4 that until we have very clear policies and

5 procedures as required in our democratic

6 society to run meetings of this sort, public

7 meetings, that we do operate outside the law.

8 So we'll leave that issue on the table and in

9 the spirit of collaboration, I concur with

10 your moving on with the meeting. Thank you so

11 much for addressing these issues.

12 MR. McEVOY: Yes, thanks, Jay.

13 And we are certainly operating within the law

14 and under FACA and OFPA in this, in everything

15 that we do. There's certainly questions that

16 will come up in terms of procedure and how we

17 operate, and we're happy to hear those

18 questions, go back to counsel and report back

19 to the Board about procedures.

20 So again, good morning. Thanks to

21 everyone for coming. We're getting a little

22 bit of a late start here, but there's a lot of
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1 things to cover as well.

2 So I'd like to open the National

3 Organic Standards Board meeting. As I said,

4 I am Miles McEvoy. I'm the deputy

5 administrator in the Agricultural Marketing

6 Service, I'm the Program Manager of the

7 National Organic Program, and I'm the

8 Designated Federal Officer of the National

9 Organic Standards Board.

10 Under the Federal Advisory

11 Committee Act, and as per the NOSB policy and

12 procedures manual, which says that the

13 Designated Federal Officer can chair the

14 meeting, it is my pleasure to open the San

15 Antonio meeting.

16 Welcome to Board members and the

17 public. I look forward to a great meeting.

18 We've already had a lot of interesting things

19 happening, and we'll continue to have that,

20 I'm sure. In a moment, I will turn the

21 meeting over to Mac Stone, the NOSB Chair, but

22 first I have a few things that I'd like to
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1 cover.

2 First of all, I want to thank the

3 NOSB members for their service to the organic

4 community. All the members of the Board are

5 volunteers. They devote hundreds of hours on

6 researching topics, discussing and developing

7 proposals, reading and listening to the public

8 comments, they all try to do this to provide

9 the best recommendations possible to the

10 National Organic Program, to the Agricultural

11 Marketing Service, and to USDA.

12 Second, USDA, Agricultural

13 Marketing Service, and then National Organic

14 Program value very much the advice and

15 recommendations of the NOSB. We are working

16 to understand those recommendations, to review

17 those recommendations and implement them as

18 needed. There are many NOSB recommendations

19 that have been passed over the years. There's

20 dozens of them that we still have in the queue

21 to be worked on.

22 Over the last year, many NOSB
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1 recommendations have been acted upon by the

2 NOP, including draft guidance on

3 classification of materials, proposed rule on

4 biodegradable mulch, certification

5 requirements for unpackaged organic products,

6 and many more.

7 We have significant -- we made

8 significant progress on aquaculture, pet food

9 and origin of livestock with proposed rules

10 coming out later this year. And then many

11 others are being worked on well, including

12 animal welfare. The NOSB has passed dozens of

13 recommendations and we're still trying to

14 catch up with your great work.

15 Third, we value all of the public

16 input and comments. We appreciate all the

17 time that everyone puts in to the written and

18 oral comments. We're here to listen and

19 understand. That's part of the reason why

20 we're sitting up here at the table. If you've

21 been here over a number of years, when I first

22 got here in 2009, the program sat down in the
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1 front row and separate from the Board. And

2 over the last few meetings, we've been sitting

3 off to the side.

4 But what we've heard and you'll

5 hear more in the NOSB assessment is that a lot

6 of the comments that you all make are comments

7 to the program as much as to the Board, and we

8 want to be here, listen to your comments,

9 understand where you're coming from to make

10 sure that we can, in the best way possible,

11 try to address your comments and move forward

12 with the best interest of the organic

13 community as a whole.

14 Fourth, we have heard a lot of

15 comments and angst about the revised Sunset

16 process and some changes to the NOSB

17 procedures. Even Secretary Vilsack received

18 a letter from Secretary Leahy and Congressman

19 DeFazio last week. So we understand there's

20 a lot of interest in the revised Sunset

21 process.

22 We ask that you listen to our
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1 presentations on the Organic Foods Production

2 Act, on the Federal Advisory Committee and on

3 the revised Sunset process. I think that you

4 will find that the changes are better aligned

5 with OFPA and FACA, ensure a better process

6 and better public input and better protect the

7 organic community from minority changes to the

8 organic requirements.

9 And lastly, USDA is very

10 supportive of the organic sector. We are busy

11 in many areas to support the sector as you

12 will hear throughout the day. Keep up the

13 great work. We salute the work that you

14 already do to support organics and protect the

15 integrity of the organic label.

16 So let me briefly cover the agenda

17 for the next few days. We have a lot of

18 topics to cover over the next few days. Today

19 we start with an overview of NOSB procedures,

20 covering the NOSB assessment, the Organic

21 Foods Production Act, FACA, the Federal

22 Advisory Committee Act, and the NOSB policies
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1 and procedures manual.

2 Next, Dr. Jean Richardson will

3 provide an update on the policy development

4 subcommittee. Next we'll cover the National

5 List and petition process, a brief overview of

6 rule making, how NOSB recommendations become

7 law, followed by the revised Sunset process.

8 Next will be a report from the National

9 Organic Program, of the activities that we're

10 up to. Then we'll have lunch.

11 The afternoon will start with a

12 presentation from USDA's Natural Resource

13 Conservation Service on opportunities for

14 organic farmers, and some issues regarding

15 conservation practices on organic farms. This

16 presentation will help explain the memo that

17 we sent to the Board yesterday requesting that

18 they work on soil conservation practices for

19 organic farms.

20 Next we'll have a report from the

21 Secretary's office on all the activities at

22 USDA that support organic agriculture.
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1 Then we get to the most important

2 and interesting part of the meeting, the

3 public comments. Public comment runs to the

4 end of today and through a majority of

5 Wednesday. Thirty percent of the meeting time

6 is devoted to public comments.

7 Wednesday afternoon we'll have the

8 crop subcommittee items that will be

9 discussed. Thursday the Board will cover

10 livestock handling certification,

11 accreditation and compliance and materials

12 items. Friday morning will be for deferred

13 items, NOSB officer elections, and then we'll

14 wrap up by noon.

15 So, okay, now I'm going to

16 introduce the USDA team that's here. First of

17 all, I have Dr. Melissa Bailey on my right,

18 the NOP standards director. Next to her is

19 Dr. Lisa Brines, the National List Manager.

20 We have Michelle Arsenault, our

21 NOSB advisory board specialist that will

22 handle all of the oral public comments. So if
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1 you have any questions about logistics or

2 timing, please connect with her. She also --

3 if you have anything for handing out to the

4 Board or for your presentations, get that

5 information to Michelle.

6 We also have Mark Lipson, Organic

7 Policy Director from the Secretary's office.

8 He'll be speaking this afternoon. We have Sam

9 Jones from AMS Public Affairs, so if there's

10 any media here, please check in with Sam. And

11 then we have Sara Brown from the Natural

12 Resource Conservation Service who will be

13 speaking about soil conservation this

14 afternoon.

15 Okay. Mac, now I'll turn it over

16 to you.

17 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Miles.

18 It's been a year since we were

19 together. That's given a lot of us time to

20 think, it gave the USDA time to do some

21 recalibration and looking at how we operate.

22 The Board had a training in February and we
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1 were apprised of a lot of these changes, and

2 so the Board has spent a lot of time in

3 discussion of, we still have a lot of

4 responsibility to take -- all these 15 of us

5 have a lot of responsibility to assimilate and

6 make decisions on your all's behalf.

7 And I assure you there are no easy

8 decisions on this side of the microphone, and

9 we need and thrive off of all of your all's

10 input. But ultimately we have the

11 responsibility to take the longer view or to

12 respect our perspective of where to guide this

13 ship.

14 So I look forward in the next few

15 days as we sort of land in a new spot, if you

16 will, and agree to go forward because it's

17 quite frustrating when we keep punching each

18 other in the nose rather than agreeing on our

19 differences and then ultimately leaving it up

20 to us to decide. And I say, there's no easy

21 decisions. There's always people that benefit

22 and people that come up short on a decision.
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1 So I urge us to have a very

2 serious conversation and respect each other's

3 differences. But ultimately these 15

4 people -- these 14 people that I've grown to

5 respect very much are going to have to make

6 some decisions in the next few days, and we

7 just need to listen and we need to agree at

8 some point how we're going to go forward. The

9 Board still has a lot of responsibility here.

10 The Board's responsibility was not take away.

11 The procedure was changed in the way we

12 operate.

13 So we didn't get -- I didn't get a

14 chance to welcome to all to Louisville last

15 October. We have rescheduled that meeting in

16 Louisville, so I look forward to hosting all

17 of you all in the great state of Kentucky.

18 And I would remind you, if

19 everyone would turn your cell phones on

20 vibrate, please. Also, there will be a

21 reception tomorrow night. Right, Michelle?

22 Tomorrow night's the reception? NCAT, Robert
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1 Maggiani and several other members; TOFGA,

2 Texas Organic Farming and Gardening

3 Association, Whole Foods, Crave Market, Zurich

4 International Properties, Eugene Martinez

5 Farm, and -- I should have read this before --

6 Valhausen Family Farm. Mr. or Mrs. Valhausen,

7 excuse me for pronouncing your name however I

8 should have.

9 So that is around the corner.

10 There are maps I guess out on the little

11 table. It's just two or three blocks away,

12 and we very much appreciate them letting us

13 all get together in a casual setting tomorrow

14 evening.

15 As is tradition, at some -- we

16 always remind ourselves of the vision, of our

17 mission, if you will, is to assist in the

18 development of standards for substances to be

19 used in organic production and to advise the

20 Secretary on any other aspects of the

21 implementation of this title.

22 And I chose that mission statement
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1 versus the vision. We still have the

2 responsibility, we still have a mechanism to

3 advise the Secretary. Again, the process may

4 have changed, but the responsibility and the

5 ability to effect change has not changed.

6 With that I failed to introduce

7 myself. And then I'll ask the Board members

8 to follow suit. Again, I'm Mac Stone,

9 currently the chair of the National Organic

10 Standards Board. My wife and her brother and

11 their family and I run a certified organic

12 farm in Kentucky. We have CSA, farmers

13 market, mostly a direct market operation. I'm

14 dramatically impacted by the work of this

15 Board over the past few years, and represent

16 the certifiers on the Board.

17 And with that I'll hand it off to

18 Mr. Foster. We'll go this way.

19 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: My name's John

20 Foster. I've been -- this is my last of five

21 years on the Board. I represent

22 handler/processor folks. I, in the past, have
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1 served as crops -- going back then -- crops

2 committee chair and have also served as the

3 chair of the handling subcommittee after the

4 name change. It's, again, a pleasure to be

5 here, and I -- my other job is for Earthbound

6 Farm. I work in the areas of regulatory

7 compliance.

8 SECRETARY WALKER: Good morning.

9 My name is Calvin Walker. However, the last

10 two years I've changed it to C. Rueben Walker

11 because I found out that it helped with

12 funding for my university. When you get 3-

13 and $400,000 in grants when you use C. Rueben

14 Walker, you might as well continue to use C.

15 Rueben.

16 Again, I would like to welcome

17 everybody to Texas, the neighboring state of

18 Louisiana. And before I say a little bit more

19 about myself, I would like to say

20 congratulations and happy birthday Dr. Jean

21 Richardson. Today she's 25 years old.

22 (Applause.)
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1 SECRETARY WALKER: I was appointed

2 to the Board by Secretary Vilsack as a

3 consumer, a public interest advocate. My way

4 to organics came about by Mr. Frank Stronach,

5 former founder of Magna Corporation in Canada,

6 and Dennis Mills, his CEO. And their efforts

7 was to help grow organics among minorities

8 during the time of Katrina.

9 And I was one of the individuals

10 that they had called to help. I didn't know

11 a lot -- I used the word shiggity. Shiggity

12 is a word I could tell you what it means later

13 on. I think it's good for the transcript to

14 use the word shiggity. But Mr. Stronach and

15 Dennis Mills was able to give me some good

16 guidance about organics. And this is the way

17 that I came to organics, and I'm glad that

18 these two individuals were a part of my

19 evolution to organics.

20 I currently serve as chair of the

21 Agricultural Sciences and Urban Forestry

22 Program at Southern. And I represent, again,
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1 the consumers, the public, and I served as the

2 vice -- as the chair of the materials

3 committee, and I'm member of the livestock

4 committee.

5 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you,

6 Calvin.

7 I'm not as funny as Calvin is.

8 But I have -- you know, anyway. So I'm Jean

9 Richardson. I have a background in the

10 biological and earth sciences and law,

11 professor emerita of environmental studies and

12 natural resources, University of Vermont.

13 I used to operate a small family

14 farm. Mostly we had animals like a sort of

15 McDonald's farm, is you will, grew little of

16 everything. Now I help my kids on their

17 organic maple syrup production business in

18 northern Vermont. And we had a very late

19 season this year because of the weather.

20 And also an organic inspector,

21 have been for about 14-15 years, for both

22 farms and for processing and for handling, and
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1 I represent public interest on the Board. I'm

2 also on the handling subcommittee, the

3 livestock subcommittee and the accreditation

4 subcommittee, and for a brief period I was a

5 chair of policy, and maybe I still am, that

6 yet remains to be seen. Thank you.

7 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you, Jean.

8 My name is Joe Dickson. I am the

9 global quality standards coordinator at Whole

10 Foods Market just up the road in Austin,

11 Texas. I am in my fifth year on the National

12 Organic Standards Board as the retail

13 representative on the Board.

14 I serve on the compliance,

15 accreditation and certification committee,

16 along with the livestock and the handling

17 committees, and I'm happy to be here in San

18 Antonio and welcome you all to Texas.

19 MEMBER BECK: Good morning. My

20 name is Carmela Beck. I work for Driscoll

21 Strawberry Associates. We're based out of

22 Watsonville, California. I'm the organic
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1 program manager, so I do the certification for

2 all of our organic farmers. I have the farmer

3 seat. I'm in my third year. I am the chair

4 of the CACS and I also am on the crop

5 subcommittee. And it's nice to see all of you

6 here.

7 MEMBER FAVRE: As we say in Texas,

8 howdy. As a native Texan, I'd like to welcome

9 you to the great republic of the state of

10 Texas, home of the Alamo, which I encourage

11 you to go see. Every school child in Texas in

12 the eighth grade takes Texas history, and the

13 Alamo is one of the great stories of the state

14 of Texas, so I encourage you to go.

15 My name is Tracy Favre. I'm

16 currently head of the livestock subcommittee.

17 I am a registered professional engineer in the

18 state of Texas. I sit on the environmental --

19 one of the environmental seats on the Board

20 after having worked as an environmental

21 engineer in the state of Texas for 18 years.

22 I currently have a small diversified family
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1 farm in Granbury, Texas, just southwest of Ft.

2 Worth. Thank you all for coming here today.

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: Hi, I'm Nick

4 Maravell, organic producer of crops and

5 livestock in Maryland.

6 MEMBER FULWIDER: Hi, I'm Wendy

7 Fulwider, and I represent producers on this

8 Board. I own a certified organic dairy farm

9 with my son, Cody, in Ripon, Wisconsin, and we

10 also direct market grass-finished beef,

11 pastured pork and free range poultry. I also

12 work for Global Animal Partnership as a farm

13 animal care specialist.

14 MEMBER THICKE: Hi, I'm Francis

15 Thicke. I'm from Iowa, an organic dairy

16 farmer, and we market our products locally,

17 process it on the farm. I'm also a soil

18 scientist and in the past have worked at USDA

19 in Washington as a natural program leader for

20 soil science with the USDA extension service.

21 And I sit in the environmentalist chair.

22 MEMBER BONDERA: Hello everybody.
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1 My name is Colehour Bondera and I'm glad to be

2 in Texas, but I'm here from Hawaii, and I'm a

3 representative on the board of organic

4 farmers, which my family has a small diverse

5 organic farm in Hawaii. I think the only

6 thing worth sharing is that I serve -- I'm

7 former chair of the policy development

8 subcommittee, as Jean referred, and I serve on

9 the crops and the livestock subcommittees.

10 Thank you.

11 MEMBER TAYLOR: Good morning. I'm

12 Jennifer Taylor and on the Board I serve and

13 represent the public and the organic

14 community. Thank you.

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: Good morning.

16 Good morning. Jay Feldman. I am Executive

17 Director of Beyond Pesticides. I serve in the

18 environmental conservation slot on the Board.

19 Our organization is a diverse mix

20 of scientists and activists and farmers, farm

21 workers who come together around the idea that

22 toxic chemicals have no place in our society,
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1 especially in the production of food. We

2 believe very deeply that we need to grow the

3 organic community, grow the organic commitment

4 on behalf of consumers and all those out there

5 that are concerned about health and

6 environment.

7 And we do that by building trust,

8 trust in the organic label. So you'll hear me

9 speaking throughout this meeting from that

10 perspective because we believe organic is the

11 solution to pesticide pollution. And it is an

12 honor to serve with all of these incredibly

13 dedicated people on this Board and in the

14 agency. And I hope we can make the right

15 decisions over the next couple of days. Thank

16 you.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Hi, I'm Zea

18 Sonnabend from Watsonville, California. My

19 affiliations are Fruitilicious Farm and CCOF.

20 I chair the crops committee and serve on the

21 handling committee and the materials/GMO

22 committee, and the inerts working group.
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Good morning. My

2 name's Harold Austin. I'm with Zirkle Fruit

3 Company. We're a handler and a processor out

4 of the state of Washington farming organic

5 apples, cherries, pears, wine grapes,

6 blueberries.

7 I sit as the chair of the handling

8 subcommittee, I serve on the crops committee

9 and also the CACS. I've been a part of the

10 organic industry for a little over 20 years,

11 first as a consultant and then as part of the

12 part of the company that I now work for. I'm

13 very proud of that affiliation and that

14 association.

15 We've come a long ways, our

16 organic family. And that's everybody in this

17 room. And I'm proud to be a part of the

18 growth of what organics is today compared to

19 where we were even just a mere five, six,

20 seven years ago. We've got a long ways to go.

21 We've got a long ways to work together to

22 overcome the hurdles and challenges that our
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1 organic industry and our organic family and

2 community will face.

3 And we need to do that together

4 collectively. There's a way that we can step

5 into the same room and work with same

6 commitment, no matter what your perspective,

7 no matter what your passion, no matter what

8 entities you represent, as we can show by the

9 15 of us that sit on this Board working

10 together for a common goal.

11 I'm glad to be a part of it, and I

12 thank you all for being here. And I would

13 like to say that Washington State's also -- we

14 don't have a basketball team anymore, but we

15 are the home of the Seattle Seahawks, the

16 world championship football team.

17 CHAIR STONE: And that ball

18 doesn't really bounce very well, does it?

19 MEMBER AUSTIN: A little bit

20 pointy.

21 CHAIR STONE: Well, thank you all.

22 And, Zea, I think I'll recommend to the
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1 executive committee that we make that the non2 GMO committee. Okay?

3 All right. Thank you. Yes, we

4 are here -- as I said, this group of

5 individuals up here is going to have to make

6 some decisions, and the better that we can

7 engage with you all and have a spirited

8 debate, if you will, is very important. Miles

9 referenced that a full third of the time that

10 we have together is in oral comments.

11 I'll assure you that written

12 comments, all of us around the table that look

13 a little bleary-eyed, it's not from jet lag,

14 it's from reading every single one of those

15 written comments so that when we get together

16 we can address the specific issues.

17 And when we get substantive

18 written comments, it affects the way we do

19 business on this side of the table. We're

20 looking at how do we have a more efficient

21 method of us getting your all's input into the

22 process.
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1 So those are the types of things

2 that are still very much alive and very much

3 of what we're trying to do on your all's

4 behalf, as Harold said, to grow this community

5 and grow that seal that you see displayed up

6 on the board behind me.

7 So with that, Miles is going to

8 give us some assessment that the program has

9 been working through with their staff at USDA.

10 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Thanks, Mac.

11 So what -- the next part of the

12 day is going to be the presentations that we

13 actually gave to the National Organic

14 Standards Board in February in an abbreviated

15 fashion. So all of the content that's going

16 to be covered today is already up on our

17 website. You just go under the NOSB February

18 training and you can find the content for a

19 lot of things that we cover today.

20 This is a shorter version of that,

21 but we're going to go through that information

22 again. Part of the information that we got
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1 from the assessment is that it's very

2 important that we're very clear on what the

3 procedures are, how we operate, and in many

4 different levels of USDA and AMS, NOP and

5 NOSB.

6 Okay. Great. So I'm going to --

7 first, I'm going to cover the NOSB assessment,

8 then I'm going to cover NOSB under the Organic

9 Foods Production Act and the Federal Advisory

10 Committee Act, because both of those Acts,

11 those statutes are very important to the

12 understanding of how the National Organic

13 Standards Board works, and then get into NOSB

14 procedures.

15 So first of all, we all know about

16 the concept of continual improvement under the

17 organic principles. We're always looking of

18 ways to improve the process, to make the

19 system better. This is a public/private

20 partnership the way that the Organic Foods

21 Production Act was set up, a partnership

22 between public entities and private groups.
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1 We've received requests from the

2 public for more transparency and clarification

3 of the NOSB process. Many of the people in

4 this room have submitted those kinds of

5 comments over the last few years.

6 So AMS has these goals of, first

7 of all, to fully address all the NOSB

8 recommendations. There's many

9 recommendations, as I said, that we still have

10 not fully addressed, and to receive advice

11 from the NOSB that we can implement.

12 We really want to be successful.

13 We want those recommendations to be things

14 that we can actually work with and implement

15 through the governmental process. We're also

16 interested in improving the efficiency and

17 effectiveness of the NOSB to make sure that

18 the recommendations are as effective as

19 possible and really can be implemented.

20 So last summer we contracted with

21 the Meridian Institute to conduct an outside

22 assessment of the NOSB to try to learn things
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1 of how we could improve that process. The

2 Meridian Institute is a non-profit with

3 expertise in process design, facilitation,

4 mediation and conducting assessments of

5 organizational dynamics. The Meridian

6 assessment report was posted yesterday, so you

7 can see the full report on the NOP website

8 now.

9 The methodology that they followed

10 is they conducted 33 interviews between

11 October and early December. All the Board

12 members were interviewed and then some key

13 stakeholders. They analyzed that data from

14 the interviews to develop their report.

15 Now 33 is not that many, it's not

16 a statistically valid sample of the organic

17 community, but that was the resources that we

18 had. We tried to identify our key

19 stakeholders within the organic community that

20 are very active in the National Organic

21 Standards Board process to be the key folks

22 that we interviewed as part of that process.
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1 The key findings in this report of

2 what we heard works from the report is that it

3 was good access to the National Organic

4 Program staff when needed by the National

5 Organic Standards Board, strong leadership

6 from NOP staff, improvements in the

7 organization and implementation of the process

8 in recent years.

9 If you've been following the

10 National Organic Standards Board, there have

11 been many changes that we've implemented over

12 the years. We'll continue to do that to try

13 to make the process better. Good

14 documentation of public meetings and the

15 subcommittee calls.

16 Also, a high level of respect

17 among the Board members, public meetings are

18 very effective at moving through established

19 agendas. There's a clear NOSB focus today

20 than in previous years is what they said were

21 their findings. And that stakeholders

22 generally view the NOSB process as transparent
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1 and particularly the public meetings. A lot

2 of value that the stakeholders felt were in

3 these public meetings.

4 The major themes that they

5 identified in the report were in four areas:

6 roles and responsibilities, communication and

7 transparency, NOSB workload and scope, and

8 NOSB public meetings. So I'll go into each of

9 those in more detail.

10 So in terms of roles and

11 responsibilities they identified a range of

12 views on the following issues. First of all,

13 NOSB authority. We've already seen that this

14 morning. There's a lot of different

15 viewpoints in terms of what is the NOSB's

16 authority.

17 The development of NOSB work

18 plans, which I'll cover in more detail later

19 today, there was a lot of differing views on

20 that. And the nature of the partnership

21 between the NOSB and the National Organic

22 Program in developing recommendations and
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1 setting policy. So a lot of divergent

2 viewpoints in these particular areas.

3 So their concepts for potential

4 next steps, first of all, the need to clarify

5 the extent of the advisory nature of the

6 Board, the responsibility for both the

7 National Organic Program and the National

8 Organic Standards Board in developing and

9 executing work plans, NOP's legal

10 responsibilities regarding review of the NOSB

11 recommendations, and the protocols to guide

12 collaborative work with the NOSB.

13 So they also suggested providing

14 training to new NOSB members, clarifying the

15 roles and responsibilities. So that's one of

16 the concepts that we hope to implement, or we

17 plan to implement is ensuring adequate

18 training for new NOSB members that come on to

19 the Board.

20 In terms of communication and

21 transparency, their key findings were that

22 there were differing perceptions of how
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1 effective communication currently is between

2 NOP staff and the NOSB, particularly regarding

3 the development of subcommittee work plans.

4 There was a desire for more communication

5 pathways to the National Organic Program from

6 external stakeholders.

7 This is one way to get information

8 into the National Organic Program, but there

9 are other methods that we want to highlight as

10 well. There is the NOP guidance at usda.gov

11 that's always open for public comment, so we

12 want to make people aware that there are ways

13 to get comments into the National Organic

14 Program at any time.

15 And stakeholders also seek a clear

16 understanding of progress that's made on these

17 NOSB recommendations within the USDA's rule

18 making process. So we'll try to be more

19 transparent and more communicative about where

20 we are with the various NOSB recommendations.

21 So our next steps, review the

22 roles and responsibilities for the National
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1 Organic Standards Board and the National

2 Organic Program; to guide input on

3 subcommittee work plans, we'll go through that

4 in more detail later this morning; establish

5 a means for external stakeholders to provide

6 comment directly to the National Organic

7 Program rather than through NOSB channels. We

8 have some things set up but we need to expand

9 on those.

10 The Board passed an open

11 communication recommendation last year or the

12 year before that we still haven't implemented.

13 It's one of a number of NOSB recommendations

14 that haven't been implemented that we support.

15 We just haven't gotten that particular item

16 completed.

17 And providing more clarity on the

18 process that recommendations must go through

19 to be implemented by USDA. And that's what

20 we're going to try to do today, is to provide

21 some more clarity, some more information about

22 that process that we go through to make those
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1 recommendations into effective rules or

2 policy.

3 The next area was around NOSB's

4 scope. The key issues identified was that

5 there was an extensive NOSB workload, it was

6 hard for many of the NOSB members to manage

7 the work that they have in front of them in

8 terms of the national risk, the Sunset and the

9 other work that the Board is working on.

10 Desire for more strategic

11 conversations. On the one hand there's too

12 much work for the Board, on the other hand the

13 Board wants to have more higher level

14 strategic conversations about the direction of

15 the organic standards, organic community.

16 The complex technical nature of

17 petitions reviewed by the Board. That's very

18 much a challenging thing for the Board

19 members. These are very complex technical

20 issues on many of these materials. And then

21 uneven distribution of work among

22 subcommittees.
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1 So potential next steps here, one

2 idea is to focus strictly on National List

3 issues. That's the area of authority

4 specifically granted under the Organic Foods

5 Production Act. Clarify the process of

6 identifying and vetting experts to participate

7 in technical advisory panels, and focus

8 additional efforts on technical support for

9 NOSB subcommittees.

10 One of the things that we've done

11 over the last few years, each of the

12 subcommittees now has a technical

13 representative from the National Organic

14 Standards Board to try to provide support to

15 those subcommittees. But still the Board

16 wants more information and more support, so

17 how can we provide more support, technical

18 support for those subcommittees.

19 In terms of effective public

20 meetings, the meeting duration was seen as

21 limiting the robust discussion, so certainly

22 a suggestion for longer public meetings. The
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1 oral public comment was viewed as having a

2 disproportionate impact on the NOSB meetings.

3 The high volume of written public

4 comments is difficult for the Board to review.

5 Part of the problem is, is that the written

6 comment period closes pretty close to the

7 meeting date, so it's a very, very compressed

8 amount of time for the Board to review all

9 those comments between the closure of written

10 comment period and the opening of the meeting.

11 A need for more collegial meeting

12 environment and desire for more robust

13 dialogue among Board members during meetings.

14 So potential next steps here,

15 consider length of public meetings as well as

16 conducting some portions of the public

17 meetings via teleconference, webinar or other

18 virtual means. So we might want to look into

19 some of those concepts of using technology to

20 expand the open public meetings that the Board

21 has.

22 Establish a mechanism to gather
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1 and consider written comments directed to the

2 NOP rather than the NOSB. So is there some

3 way that we can carve off part of the meeting

4 for comments directly to the National Organic

5 Program. Consider restructuring the public

6 comment process to better facilitate direct

7 dialogue and feedback. Consider whether focus

8 should be on oral or written comments and

9 adjust schedules accordingly.

10 There's some interesting ideas

11 that they have in the assessment report about

12 ways of improving the dialogue or other ways

13 of running this meeting to have more dialogue

14 and discussion at these meetings.

15 Other things that the assessment

16 report discusses is subcommittee process and

17 functions, NOSB policies and procedures and

18 Board member selections. So please take a

19 look at the assessment report. There's a lot

20 of really good information in there that can

21 give us some ideas of how to continue to

22 improve the process.
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1 So now moving on to the National

2 Organic Standards Board. As you know, the

3 Board is appointed by the Secretary of

4 Agriculture under the Federal Advisory

5 Committee Act. The purpose of a FACA

6 committee is to obtain advice or

7 recommendations on issues or policies within

8 the scope of an agency's official

9 responsibilities. NOSB reviews substances and

10 recommends if they should be allowed and

11 prohibited.

12 USDA's role with the National

13 Organic Standards Board, we have specific

14 responsibilities, including ensuring that

15 there's public access to the NOSB actions and

16 that that is maximized. We're responsible for

17 issuing administrative guidelines to the

18 National Organic Standards Board. We're

19 responsible for controlling the undue

20 influence of special interests by balancing

21 committee membership. This is all from the

22 Federal Advisory Committee Act. We're also
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1 responsible to monitor and reduce costs as

2 much as possible to make -- to maximize the

3 return on the investment of public money into

4 these meetings.

5 In addition, USDA may not include

6 exemptions for the use of specific synthetic

7 substances without them having been proposed

8 or recommended by the National Organic

9 Standards Board. We all know this point, but

10 it's important to reiterate that the USDA, the

11 National Organic Program cannot add anything,

12 any synthetic substance to the National List

13 unless there's a recommendation for that to

14 happen that comes from the National Organic

15 Standards Board.

16 In addition though, also within

17 OFPA, USDA is responsible for evaluating the

18 OFPA criteria associated with National List

19 substances. So there's a shared

20 responsibility.

21 We certainly can't add anything to

22 the National List that hasn't been recommended
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1 by the Board. But just because it's

2 recommended by the Board, we still have to do

3 the analysis to determine that it meets OFPA

4 criteria and may or may not decide to add

5 something to the National List.

6 So our specific role with the

7 National List, we establish and administer a

8 national list of approved and prohibited

9 substances. That's the -- AMS'

10 responsibility. Those are based on the

11 recommendations from the National Organic

12 Standards Board.

13 The Secretary may not include

14 exemptions for the use of specific synthetic

15 substances without a recommendation from the

16 Board, and we must publish any proposed

17 amendments to the list and seek public

18 comment, and must note any changes the

19 Secretary has made to the Board's

20 recommendation in any proposed and final rule

21 making that we do.

22 After evaluation of the comments,
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1 the Secretary shall publish the final National

2 List, along with an analysis of the comments

3 that we received on the proposed National

4 List.

5 In terms of the Sunset provision,

6 receive the Board's five-year review on the

7 National List substances and determine whether

8 or not to renew those substances. That's the

9 USDA's responsibility.

10 So we'll quickly cover the Sunset

11 provision, but we're going to go into a lot

12 more detail on the Sunset provision later this

13 morning. From the statute, no exemption or

14 prohibition contained on the National List

15 shall be valid unless the NOSB has reviewed

16 such exemption or prohibition as provided in

17 this section within five years of such

18 exemption or prohibition being adopted or

19 reviewed, and the Secretary has renewed such

20 exemption or prohibition. So the process is

21 the NOSB reviews, and the Secretary renews

22 these substances on the National List.
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1 So from our perspective the Sunset

2 process needed to be revised. There was a lot

3 of drawbacks to the previous process. It only

4 required two-fifths of the Board to remove a

5 substance from the National List.

6 Every Sunset required three NOP

7 rule making steps. Substances used to be

8 discussed in one public meeting and there were

9 many annotation changes that were

10 problematical for us to implement during the

11 rule making process.

12 So the revision we feel has many

13 benefits. It's a thorough and transparent

14 review process for all substances, it provides

15 two public comment opportunities before the

16 NOSB completes its review of each substance,

17 it ensures that any change to the National

18 List, whether it's petitioned or through the

19 Sunset process, is supported by two-third

20 majority, a decisive majority of the National

21 Organic Standards Board.

22 And it streamlines the
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1 administration of the National List by

2 simplifying our rule making process. So we

3 see there are many benefits to this revised

4 process. And as I said, we'll get into this

5 in more detail later this morning.

6 So a little bit of legislative

7 history of the creation of the -- and the

8 membership of the National Organic Standards

9 Board. The 1990 Farm Bill Senate Committee

10 and Conference Report, Board membership was

11 carefully selected to provide a balance of

12 interests.

13 There was concern about

14 appropriate representation given the Board's

15 anticipated influence in setting standards.

16 At the time it was noted that the interest of

17 farmers and handlers and the interest of

18 consumers and environmentalists required

19 balance, and that's why the representation

20 included six of each of these two interest

21 groups. It was then supplemented by a

22 retailer, and then later by a certifier and a
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1 scientist to have the 15 members of the Board.

2 The two-third majority vote to

3 carry any motion was set to adequately prevent

4 any one interest from controlling the Board.

5 So the idea is to have a majority, more of a

6 consensus viewpoint when there's a

7 recommendation that comes out of the National

8 Organic Standards Board.

9 So under the Organic Foods

10 Production Act, it states that the Secretary

11 shall establish a National Organic Standards

12 Board in accordance with the Federal Advisory

13 Committee Act to assist in the development of

14 standards for substances to be used in organic

15 production and to advise the Secretary on any

16 other aspects of implementation of this title.

17 So those are the specific things that come

18 from the statute about the National Organic

19 Standards Board.

20 There are many responsibilities

21 that the NOSB has. First of all, provide

22 recommendations to the Secretary regarding
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1 implementation of the Organic Foods Production

2 Act, develop the proposed National List or

3 proposed amendments to the National List for

4 submission to the Secretary, convene technical

5 advisory panels to provide scientific

6 evaluation of materials, review botanical

7 pesticides, advise the Secretary on product

8 residue testing, and emergency spray programs.

9 And there are some specific

10 requirements while establishing the proposed

11 amendments and those include reviewing

12 available information on potential adverse

13 human and environmental affects, obtain a

14 complete list of ingredients of considered

15 substances from manufacturers to determine if

16 it includes synthetic inert materials, and to

17 submit to the Secretary results of the Board's

18 evaluation and any technical advisory panel.

19 And then to use seven specified

20 evaluation criteria which are in very small

21 print here, but there are seven specific

22 criteria that the Board continually uses to
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1 evaluate substances through the Sunset process

2 and through the petition process.

3 And this is abbreviated, but those

4 seven areas are to look at detrimental

5 chemical interactions. The second one is

6 toxicity and mode of action, the break down

7 products, the persistence in the environment.

8 The third one is probability of environmental

9 contamination during manufacturing and use.

10 The fourth is effect of the substance on human

11 health.

12 The fifth is the affects of the

13 substance on biological and chemical

14 interactions in the agroecosystem. The sixth

15 is alternatives to using the substance. And

16 the seventh is compatibility with a system of

17 sustainable agriculture. So those are the

18 criteria that the Board utilizes to determine

19 whether or not a substance meets the

20 requirements under OFPA.

21 The Board is also responsible for

22 establishing procedures for receding petitions
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1 to evaluating substances for inclusion on the

2 list, and to conduct Sunset review of each

3 substance on the list within five years of

4 that substance being adopted or renewed.

5 Okay. Now with that every quick

6 overview of some of the provisions in OFPA,

7 we're going to move on to the Federal Advisory

8 Committee Act. And under the Federal Advisory

9 Committee Act the Secretary has certain

10 responsibilities to establish the National

11 Organic Standards Board in accordance with

12 that Federal Advisory Committee Act.

13 And FACA committees are

14 established for the purpose of obtaining

15 advice or recommendations on issues or

16 policies within the scope of an agency's

17 official responsibilities. Like the NOSB,

18 many FACA boards are statutory. In 2012 141

19 of the 169 USDA boards were statutory.

20 So the USDA has many FACA boards,

21 many advisory committees that provide advice

22 and recommendations to the Secretary.
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1 169 as of 2012, and many of those are

2 statutorily defined by Congress.

3 So the NOSB is unique and special

4 and it's also the same as many other advisory

5 committees. It operates under the Federal

6 Advisory Committee Act and therefore the

7 Federal Advisory Committee Act is really,

8 really important to have a basic understanding

9 of some of the provisions in FACA that affect

10 the operations of the NOSB.

11 And federal advisory committees

12 exist to advise and recommend, not to decide.

13 Obviously the recommendations are very

14 important to USDA, and we try as much as we

15 can to address them and to implement them, but

16 they are recommendations. They're advice to

17 the Secretary. It's the USDA's responsibility

18 to have the rules and the policies and the

19 guidance for enforcing and protecting organic

20 integrity.

21 Some of the requirements that FACA

22 committees must have, there has to be a
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1 charter. It has to be established with

2 mission and duties and the charter has to be

3 renewed every two years. We have a charter

4 that's just about ready to expire. The new

5 charter will be posted very shortly, within

6 the next few weeks I believe.

7 And the charter is a very

8 important thing. It's on our website, people

9 should take a look at it. It has some basic

10 provisions about the operating procedures for

11 the National Organic Standards Board.

12 FACA committees also have to have

13 fair and balanced membership. The Secretary

14 appoints the members based on the Organic

15 Foods Production Act's categories. A

16 Designated Federal Officer for advisory

17 committee and its subcommittees has to be

18 designated.

19 FACA assigns a number of

20 activities to the Designated Federal Officer.

21 And there also has to be an opportunity for

22 reasonable participation by the public in
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1 advisory committee activities, subject to

2 agency guidelines around FACA committees.

3 Open meetings is part of the FACA

4 rules, so open meetings with opportunity for

5 public comment. Any member of the public is

6 permitted to file a written statement with the

7 advisory committee, and any member of the

8 public may speak to or address the advisory

9 committee within the appropriate guidelines.

10 So everything that the Board does has to be

11 done in -- under the Open Public Meetings Act

12 and in the public.

13 So what's the difference between

14 subcommittees versus committees? That's why

15 we changed the name a few years ago. We used

16 to call the subcommittees committees, but

17 committees are things that are subject to the

18 FACA rules. That's why we're now calling them

19 the handling subcommittee, the crops

20 subcommittee, and so on.

21 Subcommittee meetings must be

22 conducted in accordance with FACA's openness
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1 requirements if recommendations are made

2 directly to the federal agency. And the way

3 that the things are set up under this Board is

4 subcommittees do not make recommendations

5 directly to USDA or AMS. They provide a

6 process for the Board as a whole to have some

7 work being done and proposals brought forward

8 to the full Board for discussion and decision.

9 So there's no decision making that

10 occurs at the subcommittee level. They're

11 just bringing things forward, organizing the

12 work so the full Board that meets here today

13 and other meetings, this is where the final

14 advice and recommendation is determined.

15 So the parent advisory committee

16 would -- subcommittee would have to meet FACA

17 openness requirements if the parent advisory

18 committee would adopt the subcommittee

19 recommendations without any further

20 deliberations. The further deliberations

21 happen here.

22 NOSB subcommittee proposals do not
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1 come directly to USDA, they come through the

2 NOSB full committee, and this is why the

3 subcommittee calls are not currently opened to

4 the public, and this is also why we call

5 subcommittee products proposals rather than

6 recommendations.

7 So our responsibilities,

8 Agricultural Marketing Service's

9 responsibilities is, first of all, we need to

10 comply with FACA, with Federal Advisory

11 Committee Act. We need to issue

12 administrative guidelines and management

13 controls that apply to advisory committees.

14 We designate a committee management officer

15 and a Designated Federal Officer for each

16 advisory committee and its subcommittees.

17 We provide a written determination

18 stating the reasons for closing any advisory

19 committee meeting to the public, and we have

20 to review at least annually the need to

21 continue each advisory committee consistent

22 with the public interest and the purpose of
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1 each advisory committee. So every year we

2 have to submit a report on the NOSB and

3 whether or not the NOSB should continue to

4 function as an advisory committee.

5 We also determine that staff,

6 experts and consultants to advisory committees

7 are justified and levels of agency support are

8 adequate. We develop the procedures to assure

9 that the committees' recommendations will not

10 be inappropriately influenced by the

11 appointing authority or by any special

12 interest, but will instead be the result of

13 the committee's independent judgment.

14 We also are responsible to assure

15 that the interests and affiliations of

16 advisory committee members are reviewed for

17 conformance with applicable conflict of

18 interest statutes, regulations issued by the

19 Office of Governmental Ethics, including any

20 supplemental agency requirements and other

21 federal ethics laws. There's a lot of

22 different things that we're responsible for to
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1 make sure that these are operating

2 appropriately for the National Organic

3 Standards Board.

4 AMS' Designated Federal Officer,

5 which is myself, to the NOSB is the NOP deputy

6 administrator. The Designated Federal Officer

7 is the one that calls the meeting, that

8 attends the meeting, and adjoins the committee

9 meetings. That means the NOSB meetings are

10 called and adjourned by the Designated Federal

11 Officer.

12 We develop and approve the

13 agendas. Obviously with lots of input from

14 the National Organic Standards Board, but it's

15 our responsibility to develop and approve the

16 NOSB agenda. We maintain the required records

17 and we retain the budgets, we ensure efficient

18 operations and adherence to FACA and other

19 laws, we develop committee reports for the

20 committee management officer and we must

21 submit an annual report on Board activities,

22 meetings and expenses. So we have lots of
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1 things that we do to support administratively

2 the operation of this Board and the important

3 work that the Board does.

4 So if you put FACA and OFPA

5 together, OFPA doesn't direct the NOSB to

6 decide. OFPA asks NOSB to assist in the

7 development of standards, to provide

8 recommendations, to evaluate substances, to

9 develop proposed national lists and proposed

10 amendments to the list for submission to the

11 Secretary. So you all are making very

12 important recommendations, but they're not

13 implemented unless the USDA AMS goes through

14 the process to adopt them through rule making

15 or guidance or policy.

16 The Secretary -- and that

17 authority has been delegated by the Secretary

18 to the Agricultural Marketing Service, retains

19 the decision making and rule making authority.

20 Okay. So one of the things that

21 we found in the assessment process, lots of

22 questions about the nominations process. How
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1 do people get nominated, how people do get on

2 to the National Organic Standards Board. The

3 nomination process takes about a year, and I'm

4 going to go through briefly the steps involved

5 in the nomination process.

6 First of all, we prepare a Federal

7 Register call for nominations, an outreach

8 plan, and complete the clearance process to

9 publish the Federal Register notice.

10 Secondly, we announce the call for

11 nominations, we target having the announcement

12 open for about two months. Then the

13 applications come in, we review those

14 applications for completeness and for some

15 basic requirements, for instance whether or

16 not those applicants fit the requirements

17 under the OFPA categories.

18 Next we vet those qualified

19 candidates against the exclusion criteria.

20 There's some folks that are not eligible to

21 serve on the Board, if they're a registered

22 lobbyist or if they are on another advisory
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1 committee, they can't serve on more than one

2 advisory committee at a time.

3 Next -- it looks like we skipped

4 number five there. I don't know what happened

5 to number 5. We go from four to six. We

6 interview the qualified and vetted candidates

7 and we prepare a slate, an information summary

8 about the qualified and vetted candidates for

9 the Secretary's consideration. Then the

10 Secretary selects that appointee and the

11 appointee announced and the term begins in

12 January.

13 Okay. So there's a range of

14 factors that are considered in evaluating

15 those applicants for the Board. First of all,

16 the OFPA categories of seats to be filled,

17 that's a mandatory requirement. Second of

18 all, we have a recommendation from the

19 National Organic Standards Board on criteria

20 for board membership that came out in 1999.

21 We're going to cover that in more detail in

22 the next slide. The other things that we're
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1 looking at is ability to work collaboratively

2 with other Board members and with USDA.

3 And then there's -- the Secretary

4 is very passionate about diversity and wanting

5 to make sure that the Board represents all

6 racial and ethnic groups, women and men and

7 persons with disabilities. Very, very

8 important to have that diversity of the

9 American public represented on the National

10 Organic Standards Board.

11 So in 1999 the NOSB recommended

12 criteria for board membership. These criteria

13 are on the NOP's nominations webpage and in

14 our Federal Register announcements. And

15 they're used during the candidate evaluations.

16 So this is an example of an NOSB

17 recommendation on what are the criteria for

18 board membership that USDA has implemented in

19 our process in terms of nomination and

20 appointment of new board members.

21 The criteria that are in the

22 Federal Register notice that come from the
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1 NOSB recommendation are understanding of

2 organic principles and practical experience in

3 the organic community, experience in public

4 policy, commitment to organic integrity,

5 ability to evaluate technical information, the

6 willingness to commit time and energy needed,

7 and demonstrated experience and interest in

8 organic production and certification. So lots

9 of different criteria that are utilized in

10 this whole evaluation process.

11 So we do have a call for

12 nominations that's currently open. We're

13 accepting nominations for four new members.

14 The members are appointed by the Secretary,

15 it's a five-year term, it starts in January of

16 2015 and runs through January 2020.

17 We're seeking nominations for the following

18 seats: individual with expertise in areas of

19 environmental protection and resource

20 conservation, an organic producer who owns or

21 operates an organic operation, organic handler

22 who owns or operates an organic handling
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1 operation, and a retailer with significant

2 trade in organic products.

3 So those of you here that are

4 sitting in the audience, if you have any

5 interest in serving on the Board, we'd love to

6 see your nomination come in so we have a

7 diversity of folks that can be considered.

8 And as I said, the nomination is open until

9 May 15. More information is available on our

10 website, so please consider it, and take the

11 opportunity to serve up here with your fellow

12 community members.

13 Okay. Now we're going to move on

14 to the policies and procedures manual. The

15 policies and procedures manual is a very

16 valuable resource for the Board, for the

17 National Organic Program, and the public.

18 From 2002 to 2013, the PPM was developed by

19 the Board with revisions open to public

20 comment.

21 Moving forward, AMS is taking the leadership

22 role with the policies and procedures manual.
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1 The reason for this is, as you saw from the

2 earlier slides, is that we're responsible for

3 that. Under the FACA requirements we need to

4 provide the guidelines for the Board to

5 operate.

6 But the policies and procedures

7 manual is an excellent document. There are

8 many things that are just -- have been worked

9 on for years and work really, really well that

10 will continue to be utilized as we move

11 forward.

12 So the content of an amended

13 policies and procedures manual will include

14 NOP policies and procedures that are related

15 to the National Organic Standards Board, for

16 instance the conflict of interest memo that we

17 sent to the Board last year.

18 There are many parts of the

19 existing policies and procedures manual that

20 are working well and will be kept, and there

21 are some parts that need to be updated and

22 revised. For instance the Sunset revision
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1 component needs to be updated and revised.

2 If you look at the Sunset revision component

3 currently, it actually conflicts with each

4 other. In one part it says that there's a

5 renewal process, in another part it says

6 there's a withdraw -- removal process. So

7 there are things that need to be clarified to

8 make sure that that policies and procedures

9 manual is up-to-date.

10 Okay. Moving on to the topic of

11 work plans. As I presented, AMS drives the

12 priorities for what the Board considers. The

13 Board certainly has a voice in this process.

14 The public may petition additions or deletions

15 from the National List, and the public may

16 also submit comments directly to the Board,

17 and also write to the National Organic

18 Program. As I said, we do have a way to

19 comment at any time at nopguidance@usda.gov.

20 So you can submit comments to the National

21 Organic Program at any time for things that

22 you feel that we should be working on.
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1 FACA requires that agencies

2 effectively use resources, so we're not going

3 to be asking for advice that we don't have the

4 authority or ability to act upon. So in terms

5 of the criteria for adding work plan items,

6 first of all, we would look at whether the

7 work plan item is within the scope of the

8 authority of the Organic Foods Production Act

9 and within our scope of authority, under

10 Agricultural Marketing Service.

11 Secondly, whether or not it's a

12 priority for USDA and the National Organic

13 Program. The item must be a priority for USDA

14 and NOP, and something that are able to

15 implement in a reasonable time frame. There

16 has to be a clear need. The item must reflect

17 a clear need from the program and the organic

18 community for which information or advice is

19 needed. And it could be a need, but we

20 already have enough information, so we don't

21 necessarily need it to be on the work plan.

22 There are items -- for instance,
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1 last year the Board was working a little bit

2 on the definition of production aids, but we

3 already had a recommendation from the National

4 Organic Standards Board on production aids

5 from 2005 that we actually have not fully

6 addressed. So there's no clear need for

7 additional work to do on that until we have

8 the time to evaluate the old recommendation.

9 And then clear scope. We must have a clear

10 sense of what the intent and scope of that

11 work plan item is.

12 So we are trying to be more

13 transparent with the organic community about

14 work plan items, so we are now sending memos

15 to the Board about work plan items that are

16 not under the National List or Sunset review

17 process, so we've sent memos on ancillary

18 substances yesterday, improved guidance on

19 preventing GMO presence in organic products

20 and assessing soil conservation practices.

21 We think these memos are important

22 to be transparent to the public, indicate that
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1 there is a need for the Board to work on that

2 particular topic and clarify the parameters in

3 terms of the scope of the work on this topic

4 and the authority of that particular work plan

5 item. So take a look at those memos and we'll

6 be continuing to use that process in the

7 future.

8 In terms of the public meeting

9 agenda, the public meeting agenda is prepared

10 by the National Organic Program and it's

11 driven by several factors. Of course the

12 Board is very, very involved in the

13 development of the agenda. We're going to be

14 including work plan items that have yielded

15 acceptable discussion documents or proposals,

16 a reasonable time for public comments, make

17 sure that there's time for presentations and

18 expert panel and the cross. Those are the

19 things that we're looking at as we develop the

20 agenda for these public meetings.

21 And in the future we're looking at

22 maybe some other ways of doing these public
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1 meetings. For instance, a preparatory

2 meeting, a webinar or face-to-face meeting so

3 the Board can review the content of the

4 discussion documents and proposals before

5 getting into the final decision making

6 process. We had three meetings that NOSB had

7 for a couple of rounds that the Board liked a

8 lot, so we're looking at ways that we could

9 maybe incorporate that in a more of an open

10 public session.

11 For this particular meeting

12 there's only two substantive changes to the

13 public meeting that's being implemented for

14 this meeting, and consistent with other FACA

15 boards, the NOP is co-chairing the spring

16 meeting. There's not really a lot of change

17 there. We have more presentations this time

18 to provide information to the public, but as

19 soon as we're done with our presentations, the

20 Chair of the National Organic Standards Board,

21 Mac Stone, will be running the public comment

22 process and the subcommittee topics for the
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1 next few days.

2 And then secondly there's only

3 minor adjustments to discussion documents, and

4 proposals will be allowed before voting. If

5 public comments lead to substantive changes,

6 the document is to go back to the subcommittee

7 before voting. So a little bit more on

8 substantive change. So some of the questions

9 or criteria that we're going to utilize to

10 determine whether a proposal is being

11 substantively changed are these: is the NOSB

12 recommendation substantially different from

13 the subcommittee proposal on which it is

14 based?

15 So these are the factors that we

16 will consider: the extent to which a

17 reasonable person affected by the

18 recommendation would have understood that the

19 published proposal would affect his or her

20 interests, the extent to which the subject of

21 the recommendation or the issues determined in

22 it are substantially different from the
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1 subject or issues involved in the proposal,

2 and the extent to which the effects of the

3 recommendation differ from the effects of the

4 proposal. So really we're looking for the

5 proposal that's published to be the one that's

6 acted upon by the full Board. We will allow

7 minor changes, as long as they're not

8 substantively different from what was

9 proposed.

10 And then the NOP deputy

11 administrator or designee will determine

12 whether proposed amendment or proposal would

13 be a substantive change, just like we've done

14 in the past. Substantive change amendments

15 will be referred back to the subcommittee for

16 further consideration. Okay. So that was a

17 lot of information. I hope it was useful.

18 There's a lot of detail there. And again,

19 these presentations will be put up on our

20 website, but there's actually a little bit

21 limpier presentation that's under the NOSB

22 February training session. So with that we'll
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1 move on. Thank you.

2 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Miles.

3 So the Board was -- we got some of this

4 information in February, so I'm going to, in

5 an essence of time when we're behind -- if

6 Board members have some follow-up, there's

7 going to be some more -- I think more around

8 the Sunset in a little bit, so I'm going to

9 hold conversation around this right now. At

10 this time I'm going to ask -- Jean has a

11 report from the policy development

12 subcommittee.

13 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Hi everyone

14 again. Much of the information that I'm going

15 to say has actually really been covered by

16 Miles in one form or another, so it's somewhat

17 repetitive in places, but it is a report of

18 our subcommittee, or our former subcommittee,

19 however we look at it, for that last year and

20 report back on public comment of course.

21 The members of the subcommittee are myself,

22 John Foster, Nick Maravell, Mac Stone and Jay
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1 Feldman. In 2013 the policy and development

2 subcommittee worked on conflict of interest

3 policy and proposed extensive updates to the

4 policies and procedures manual.

5 These proposed changes were posted

6 on the public comment -- for public comment,

7 and they were due to be considered at the fall

8 2013 meeting in Louisville, which was

9 cancelled because the government shut down.

10 We received considerable public comment from

11 a broad range of stakeholder groups, including

12 the OTA, NOC, Beyond Pesticides, Consumer

13 Union, Cornucopia, Center for Food Safety,

14 several certifying agencies, PC Natural

15 Markets, Midwest Pesticide Action, and a

16 number of individuals. And obviously those

17 came not only in the form of written comment,

18 but also in reports and memoranda that people

19 circulated.

20 The work plan for the 2014

21 subcommittee, that subcommittee I just

22 described to you, we were going to provide
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1 comprehensive updates on the entire policies

2 and procedures manual ready for public comment

3 and full discussion and a vote. So this is a

4 brief report on the public comment we received

5 last fall and spring, and to explain why our

6 subcommittee no longer has any work plan items

7 on its agenda.

8 And again, apologies, some of this

9 is repetitive from Miles' report. OFPA was

10 established in the 1990 Farm Bill. OFPA

11 established the NOSB and authorized creation

12 of the USDA organic regulations. The policies

13 and procedures have been part of the work of

14 the NOSB since 2002. The work was always

15 collaborative between the NOP and the NOSB, so

16 that from the year 2002 until 2013, the NOSB

17 wrote and kept updating the policies and

18 procedures manual with all of the revisions

19 being open to public comment.

20 And in fall 2013 when the

21 government shut down, the NOP and the AMS used

22 the time in part to reassess how policies and
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1 procedures for the NOSB are developed,

2 approved and implemented. As a result of

3 consultations between the NOP and Office of

4 General Counsel, as we heard in some detail in

5 the -- Miles' report, we were reminded, and I

6 quote a February memo to us from Miles, "as a

7 federal advisory committee, the NSOB is not an

8 independent organization, it does not set

9 policy or make regulatory changes, decisions.

10 It exists to advise the Secretary. AMS has

11 been delegated authority to implement OFPA,

12 and the AMS and NOP are responsible for

13 managing the NOSB." End of quote.

14 So thus, as we now understand it,

15 the AMS, as with other FACA committees, even

16 though we are somewhat unique as you, again,

17 heard Miles commenting in his report, the AMS

18 is responsible for establishing board

19 procedures and to, "moving forward, the AMS

20 will take the leadership role on the PPM with

21 no public comment. However, there will be

22 consultation as needed with the NOSB as
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1 updates are being made."

2 I am not actually sure really what

3 that means yet. We'll find out. So that

4 means that, in fact, are no work plan items on

5 our agenda now. Now most of the working

6 public assumes that we volunteer Board members

7 can put work plan items onto our agenda, but

8 this is not the case. All work plan items

9 must be preapproved by the NOP. So we can't

10 just hold our subcommittees and have work plan

11 items.

12 The NOP reminded us during the

13 February training that the NOP has a backlog

14 of work on substances, on guidance and so

15 forth, and that work plan items must be an

16 NOP/USDA priority. And I do think that these

17 changes that, again, Miles clearly presented,

18 are really important for all of the public to

19 gain greater clarity on.

20 So they need to be able to

21 demonstrate a clear need for the NOP or the

22 organic community. So when the public wants
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1 the NOSB to address and issue, then that high

2 priority need must be clearly articulated and

3 the item must be something the NOP believes it

4 should work on and can implement, if the

5 recommendation is passed by the NOSB and

6 accepted by the NOP. And as we heard from

7 Miles, the NOP hopes that this will allow for

8 a transparent process.

9 On Sunset, what can I say in

10 brief? We received considerable public

11 comment on this major change in how substances

12 are reviewed. One aspect which came up many

13 times in public comment is the serious concern

14 that a substance may receive Sunset

15 determination in the subcommittee and not

16 actually reach the full Board.

17 The NOSB is aware of this concern

18 and there has been considerable discussion,

19 not only amongst Board members, but also in

20 our February training and right up till even

21 yesterday. And so the issue of full Board

22 consideration of Sunset material still needs
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1 to have clarification as to the specificity of

2 procedures in writing. So stay tuned on that.

3 Many members of the public

4 expressed their concern about the change in

5 interpretation of the OFPA Sunset provision,

6 which now requires a decisive two-thirds vote

7 during Sunset to delist National List

8 materials rather than a two-thirds vote on the

9 Board to relist materials. And we will hear

10 more about this later on and hopefully have

11 some more conversation on it.

12 Board representation and conflict

13 of interest. We had considerable public

14 comment on concern over Board representation

15 and conflict of interest policies. In March

16 2013 the NOSB received a memorandum

17 articulating the new conflict of interest

18 policy, which is based on FACA.

19 This represents a change from the

20 simpler NOSB policy in the PPM developed over

21 the years. Troubling to several members of

22 the public commenters is the language in that
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1 memo on representation. The memo states,

2 "NOSB members are classified as

3 representatives under the FACA. Each

4 representative is appointed to articulate the

5 viewpoints and interests of a particular

6 interest group. Representatives are appointed

7 to speak in a we' term, serving as the voice

8 of the group represented. And as such, you

9 are not expected to provide independent expert

10 advice, but rather advice based on the

11 interests the groups serve."

12 Some public commenters expressed

13 concern that this is a narrow interpretation

14 of FACA, and that it is imperative that every

15 Board member uses all their accumulated

16 experience, education and expertise to review

17 all issues and substances in as broad a

18 context of information as possible with

19 up-to-date research data, and for the benefit

20 of the organic community as a whole, and not

21 just for one sector of stakeholders.

22 Other public comment expressed
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1 concern that the different stakeholder groups

2 are indeed clearly represented. So --

3 actually that's not really a concern -- but

4 anyway, they thought -- they felt that the

5 diverse perspectives of the sectors that make

6 up the organic community in the industry are

7 well represented in the decision making

8 process.

9 These commenters believe that this

10 ensures that the organic sector will grow with

11 integrity and broad support, and the diverse

12 expertise of the Board members is a resource

13 for informing Board deliberations. But

14 ultimately the stakeholder groups must be

15 represented clearly to ensure decision

16 outcomes that build broad public trust in the

17 organic label.

18 So the NOSB was established so

19 that voices, experience and expertise from the

20 different sectors of the organic community

21 could be shared around the table and open to

22 receive public input.
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1 On process, many commenters

2 believe, and continue to believe, that the

3 USDA changes in policies and procedures should

4 have been subject to public comment before

5 being implemented. These are substantial and

6 significant changes in Board and public

7 process, and they deserve to be discussed in

8 a transparent manner to ensure ongoing public

9 trust in the decision making process and the

10 organic label. We received obviously a lot of

11 comment that, but we heard more of that this

12 morning as well.

13 So, at this juncture, questions

14 about procedures and policies of the NOSB

15 should be addressed to the NOP. The NOSB will

16 continue to work with due diligence to

17 understand these changed policies and

18 procedures and we will work rigorously to

19 review all substances and all issues that come

20 before us in order to assure the ongoing

21 integrity of the organic seal, which actually

22 means a great deal to all of us. At this
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1 point I'd like to ask if there are any of the

2 members of the subcommittee who would like to

3 add anything else to this report.

4 (No response.)

5 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you.

6 CHAIR STONE: Any follow-up or

7 questions for Jean?

8 (No response.)

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jean.

10 Yes, and I made a brief statement in the

11 opening that the Board is digesting this

12 change, if you will, and as Jean ended her

13 comments that we have your -- the seal. We

14 have that interest in mind and we're

15 retooling, recalibrating, how do we uphold the

16 responsibility that you all see that we have.

17 And we're going to unfold that

18 here in the next little bit. And I hope that

19 you will have a little more comfort level in

20 where we are going forward then. And it is

21 hard when it sort of lands in your lap, and we

22 were in conversation to see it coming. So
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1 with that, one quick --

2 MR. McEVOY: May I add one --

3 CHAIR STONE: I'm sorry?

4 MR. McEVOY: Yeah, just one thing

5 I wanted to follow up on was the

6 representative component of what you're

7 talking about. My understand is that the

8 Board members, the committee members of the

9 National Organic Standards Board can really

10 either be classified as a representative or a

11 special government employee. And so the

12 identification of you as a representative is

13 really about how you are classified for

14 conflict of interest and ethics rules.

15 And our understanding is that the

16 Board members do not want to be considered

17 special government employees, because if you

18 are, even though you're not paid by the

19 government, you still can be considered a

20 special government employee under FACA rules.

21 And if you're considered a special government

22 employee, then different rules go into effect.
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1 You basically have to follow the same

2 provisions of conflict of interest and ethics

3 as a federal employee. And so that would be

4 much more burdensome on you.

5

6 So the reason why we've identified

7 all Board members as representatives is really

8 to deal with that particular element of the

9 FACA rules, that you are representatives, and

10 you follow representatives conflict of

11 interest perspective.

12 Separately from that, there are

13 the different categories under the Organic

14 Foods Production Act that you all represent,

15 or you all are appointed because you meet

16 those particular criteria, and there's

17 certainly no interest from the program, or

18 AMS's perspective to not have you use all of

19 your expertise and all of your knowledge and

20 abilities to discuss and come to your

21 determination on the best way to move forward

22 as a member of the Board. So I think that we
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1 need to kind of distinguish the representative

2 thing under FACA from a broader perspective of

3 representative.

4 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thank you,

5 Miles. One little housekeeping chore before

6 we take a break. I neglected to have the

7 secretary, C. Ruben, to read the minutes -- or

8 acknowledge the minutes, and the Board needs

9 to approve the minutes of our last meeting of

10 last April.

11 SECRETARY WALKER: Thank you, Mac.

12 Again, I'd like to say welcome to the South,

13 and for fellow Board members at this point we

14 are trying to -- we would like to put together

15 the voting of the April 9 through 13 voting

16 record, as well as the transcript. And I know

17 all of us have read the 1,500 pages of

18 transcript, so I'm sure we all agree we can do

19 it by voice vote on both of these at one time,

20 Mr. Chairman.

21 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Calvin.

22 Does any member have any questions or issues
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1 that they saw in review in transcripts or the

2 record?

3 (No response.)

4 CHAIR STONE: Seeing none, all in

5 favor of approving the minutes of our past

6 meeting say aye.

7 (A chorus of ayes.)

8 CHAIR STONE: Any opposed?

9 (No response.)

10 CHAIR STONE: The motion carries.

11 Thank you for that. We will recess and be

12 back in 15 minutes. When would that be?

13 Eleven o'clock sharp. Thank you.

14 (Whereupon, a short recess was

15 taken.)

16 CHAIR STONE: Members of the

17 audience, if you would take your seats,

18 please. We're going to stop promptly at noon.

19 I mentioned to some of the folks upstairs,

20 Sean is adjusting each of our microphones as

21 we speak, so if you'll be a little bit patient

22 with us as we kind of go around the room and
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1 give our deliveries, give Sean time to make

2 those adjustments.

3 So with no further ado, we're

4 going to reconvene the meeting, and, Miles,

5 we're going to adjust his timing a little bit

6 so that we can stop promptly at noon and get

7 back on schedule. Miles?

8 MR. McEVOY: Okay. We're going to

9 get started again here with covering the

10 National List, some rule making procedures,

11 Sunset revisions, and then NOP report, and

12 we're going to get all that done before lunch,

13 I believe. So let's -- I'll turn it over to

14 Dr. Brines for the materials update and

15 process overview.

16 DR. BRINES: Okay. Thanks, Miles.

17 I've got a little bit of everything in this

18 materials update. It's been a year since we

19 last reported on the status of outstanding

20 petitions and technical reports. We do have

21 a lot of that information that gets reported

22 on a regular basis through our enewsletter,
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1 but these slides have got everything

2 consolidated and it'll be posted on our

3 website for those that are taking notes.

4 Okay. So I'm just going to go

5 through by committee, so starting with crops.

6 So this meeting of the crops subcommittee is

7 going to be addressing four petitions. Three

8 of those petitions are to add new materials to

9 the National List at 205.601. Those are

10 laminarin, magnesium oxide and vinasse.

11 There's another petition also for

12 streptomycin, and that's for a petition

13 amendment to the current annotation at

14 205.601. So four petitions from the crops

15 committee at this meeting. And all those

16 petitions are also posted on our website.

17 Other petitions that are currently under

18 subcommittee review that might be coming

19 forward at later meetings, there's a petition

20 for exhaust gas, or carbon monoxide, for

21 underground rodent control, there's a petition

22 for allyl isothiocyanate, which is used as a
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1 pre-plant fumigant or pesticide.

2 There's a petition for aluminum

3 sulfate, which is connected to another

4 petition for livestock use. I'll mention that

5 later. And we received another petition for

6 an inert ingredient for use in pesticide

7 products, a petition for propylene carbonate.

8 Two of those petitions that are currently

9 under review by the crops committee have a

10 technical report in development. Once that

11 technical report is available, it'll be posted

12 on our website. All four of these petitions

13 are currently posted on our website.

14 Okay. So moving on to livestock.

15 At this meeting the livestock subcommittee

16 will cover a petition to amend the annotation

17 for methionine on 205.603. Also address a

18 petition to add the substance acidified sodium

19 chlorite to 205.603. And there's a number of

20 aquaculture petitions that I've outlined here.

21 I won't go through all these individually.

22 Again, they're on the agenda and this
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1 presentation will be posted on the website

2 shortly.

3 I will just mention briefly that

4 about half of those aquaculture petitions are

5 for use in aquatic animal production, and the

6 other half of those petitions are specifically

7 for aquatic plant production. For efficiency

8 they're all being by the livestock

9 subcommittee due to some overlap in

10 considerations. Okay. For outstanding

11 petitions that are currently under

12 subcommittee review, there's a petition to add

13 aluminum sulfate to 205.603 of the National

14 List that's for use in treating poultry litter

15 for organic livestock producers.

16 The way it relates to the petition

17 for crops is that that litter -- the intent of

18 the petition is to use it in organic livestock

19 facilities, but to also have the ability to

20 apply that treated litter to organic fields,

21 so there's overlap between both in crops and

22 livestock uses. And again, the petition's on
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1 the website for those that are interested.

2 We did have one petition that was

3 drawn from livestock subcommittee review since

4 our last meeting, and that's a petition for

5 lignin sulfonate for aquatic animal use.

6 There is another petition for lignin

7 sulfonate, which is on the agenda for this

8 meeting, and that's just for the aquatic plant

9 use, not for animals. And again, each of

10 those petitions are posted on our website.

11 Okay. So moving on to handling,

12 at this meeting the Board will be considering

13 the addition of ammonium hydroxide to Section

14 205.605 of the National List as a boiler

15 additive, will be considering the removal of

16 glycerin from 205.605(b) of the National List,

17 and also considering the addition of

18 polyalkylene glycol monobutyl ether, or PGME,

19 to the National List. And again, those

20 petitions are all posted.

21 Currently under subcommittee

22 review that might be coming forward later is
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1 three outstanding petitions for handling. One

2 for gibberellic acid, which has also been

3 previously considered, and a new petition for

4 triethyl citrate to add to Section 205.605.

5 And a petition for whole algal flour, it's an

6 algae derivative which is petitioned to

7 205.606. So each of those petitions are

8 posted on the website, and I think I did

9 recently get a technical report request for

10 triethyl citrate, so that will be coming forth

11 shortly as well.

12 Okay. In terms of the Sunset

13 materials, I'm just going to briefly mention

14 the materials and we'll get into process later

15 this morning. There's three Sunset substances

16 which are up for review by the crops

17 subcommittee: aqueous potassium silicate,

18 which has two listings at 205.601(e) as an

19 insecticide, and (I) for plant disease

20 control; sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate, which

21 is listed under paragraph (a), which is the

22 algicides disinfectants and sanitizers; and
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1 sulfuric acid under paragraph (j), which is

2 plant and soil amendments. Each of these

3 substances are fairly recent additions to the

4 National List, being added in 2010, and

5 they're up for their first Sunset review for

6 2015.

7 As part of the review process the

8 subcommittee did request updated technical

9 information for each of these three materials.

10 The program was able to process those requests

11 and all those technical information updates is

12 available on the website for public viewing.

13 Okay. Moving on to handling.

14 There are no livestock Sunset 2015 substances,

15 so it's just crops and handling for Sunset

16 this year. There are four Sunset substances:

17 gellan gum; two of the cooking wines, Marsala

18 and Sherry, which on 205.606; and tragacanth

19 gum. There are no new technical information

20 for these four substances, so the subcommittee

21 is proceeding with the currently available

22 information.
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1 Okay. So I do have a little bit

2 of this presentation which is devoted to

3 process. And it's important to clarify sort

4 of NOP's role in the process and

5 distinguishing that from the Board and

6 subcommittees' process. So I'll go through

7 some of our internal procedures that we use in

8 terms of processing petitions and take us

9 through the process to come into the Board

10 recommendation.

11 So the petition process is

12 mentioned under the Organic Food Production

13 Act under Section 2119 that the Board shall

14 establish procedures under which persons may

15 petition the Board for the purpose of

16 evaluating substances for inclusion on the

17 National List. That provision is included in

18 the regulations at 205.607 on amending the

19 National List.

20 Again, repeating that any person

21 may submit a petition, and that individuals

22 can request a copy of the petition procedures
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1 from the USDA. We do also have the current

2 petition procedures posted on our website, but

3 we can mail hard copies when needed. So what

4 do the guidelines say? The most recent

5 version was published in the Federal Register

6 back in 2007. The guidelines explain what

7 information needs to be included in a

8 petition. So common questions we get, you

9 know, what is the form, what's the template.

10 There's no specific form or format or template

11 that's required. Additionally, there's no fee

12 or cost to petition, which is sometimes

13 surprising to petitioners. So it's at their

14 discretion, but they do need to hit all the

15 information that's in the current guidelines.

16 Petitions can contain confidential

17 business information according to the 2007

18 petition guidelines. However, that

19 confidential business information is not

20 posted on the website, it's not available to

21 the NOSB. And I know that's a topic that

22 we'll be discussing later this meeting, and
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1 some of the -- hopefully alleviating even some

2 of the problems that have been happening with

3 CBI.

4 Okay. So what's the program's

5 process? We receive the petition, so when we

6 get a new petition, we confirm receipt with

7 the petitioner, we do review all incoming

8 petitions for both eligibility and

9 sufficiency. Generally that review is

10 completed within 30 days, although some more

11 complicated things may take longer. We're

12 also the primary point of contact for any

13 correspondence between the Board and the

14 petitioner. So if the petitioner has

15 questions about status, they can direct those

16 questions through the program. If the Board

17 has questions for the petitioner that they

18 need a response to, those requests need to

19 come through the program. That's to ensure

20 that we have appropriate records for all that

21 communication.

22 Again, as part of our review we're
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1 looking to make sure the petitions are

2 eligible and complete when they're distributed

3 to the subcommittee. We do use check lists to

4 facilitate that process. It's essentially

5 going section-by-section through the

6 guidelines to ensure that the petitioner has

7 addressed each of the information.

8 We're not doing a quality check or a technical

9 review at this stage, we're just looking to

10 make sure that that information has been

11 included.

12 We do let the petitioners know

13 upon acceptance of the petition, when it goes

14 to the Board, that acceptance of a petition by

15 the program for review by the Board is really

16 just an administrative manner. It doesn't

17 reflect a decision by the program on any of

18 the merits of the petition.

19 We do sometimes have

20 correspondence back and forth with the

21 petitioners before that petition will go to

22 the Board, and often that's to the point of
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1 directing the petitioner, Well, you say

2 there's no alternatives, maybe you should

3 mention what people are doing now. Trying to

4 fill out information or questions that we

5 might anticipate come up during the review.

6 Often other examples might be that

7 the petitioner didn't know that the substance

8 has been previously reviewed by the Board, so

9 we might encourage them to include some of

10 that information in their petition if it's

11 relevant. Okay. So at the point that Program

12 has determined that the petition is eligible

13 and complete, we post the petition on our

14 website, and at that point the appropriate

15 subcommittee is notified that the petition is

16 available for review.

17 According to the policies and

18 procedures manual, the subcommittee should

19 complete its initial review of that petition

20 within 60 days of receipt, and at that stage

21 they can request a technical report if

22 necessary, or they can ask for additional
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1 information from the petition. And again, if

2 additional information is needed, that request

3 is submitted from the subcommittee to the

4 program, and we'll draft a letter to the

5 petitioner with any requests.

6 As part of the process, sometimes

7 petitions do get updated throughout the

8 process. Sometimes those updates are

9 responses to specific subcommittee requests.

10 In that case we usually instruct the

11 petitioner to format their response so that it

12 can be posted as an addendum to their petition

13 on the NOP website. That way, for

14 transparency, that information is available to

15 the public as well.

16 We do occasionally get updates

17 that are unsolicited, so the petition had new

18 information that has come up that they want to

19 update their petition with. They can do that

20 at any time. They can submit the -- a new

21 version of the petition or they can submit

22 updates.
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1 And we generally try to tell them

2 -- to encourage them just to do a single

3 submission if possible, so we don't have to

4 manage multiple addenda. But that's not

5 always -- it doesn't always work out. But we

6 do post those updates alongside the original

7 petition on our website, so all the

8 information is available to the public.

9 Okay. So what happens if the

10 subcommittee requests a technical report?

11 These reports -- the contracting side is

12 handled by the program. The reports

13 themselves are completed by third-party

14 contractors and NOP manages those contracts.

15 The technical report contractor has access to

16 the full petition, any past reviews of the

17 substance, and the current templates for

18 technical reports.

19 And the questions that are

20 included in the technical reports for either

21 crop, livestock or handling, align with the

22 OFPA criteria. So it doesn't necessarily
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1 include everything about a substance, but it

2 does include everything that the Board is

3 required to consider under OFPA. It may not

4 include proprietary information or

5 confidential business information in the

6 report.

7 And also the reports generally

8 don't cover economic impact information. It's

9 an important criteria that the program has to

10 consider before we do rule making, but it

11 hasn't traditionally been a part of the

12 technical report process.

13 When we do do the reports, because

14 NOP is managing the contract, we do have a

15 responsibility to accept the quality accuracy

16 and completeness of technical reports. So

17 it's our expectation when we send the reports

18 to the subcommittee that the technical reports

19 meet the requirements of the contract and

20 shouldn't need further revisions. So again,

21 we do review the reports before they're

22 distributed to the subcommittee, and that's to
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1 ensure that they meet the contracting

2 requirements and that they're complete before

3 they go to the subcommittee.

4 We do have a date in the footer

5 that some have noted that are in the technical

6 reports. That's generally the date that the

7 report was submitted by the contractor to NOP.

8 It doesn't always correlate with the posting

9 date on our website. There is sometimes a

10 delay due to Program review or subcommittee

11 review, but we keep that date as the date that

12 it came in from the contractor.

13 Okay. One other note about

14 technical reports. Occasionally we have

15 requested assistance from subject matter

16 experts in the Agricultural Research Service,

17 or ARS, in the technical review of draft

18 reports, generally that's for complicated

19 things where we might want someone with a

20 technical eye to take a closer look at a

21 couple of different areas.

22 When that has, the pre-review has
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1 occurred, we do note that in the distribution,

2 when we send it to the subcommittee, that we

3 asked a subject matter expert to look at it

4 from ARS, which is a different USDA agency.

5 Okay. So as Miles mentioned, I think, in his

6 presentation, there are certain criteria for

7 evaluation of materials. Those criteria are

8 outlined in the Organic Foods Production Act.

9 Both the petition guidelines and the technical

10 report questions, as well as the NOSB check

11 list, are designed to align with those OFPA

12 criteria, so that it can be documented that

13 the substance was evaluated against those

14 criteria.

15 There are different criteria

16 depending on the use of the substance. So

17 production has different criteria than

18 handling or processing. And there are

19 additional criteria for synthetic processing

20 aids, which are in the regulations at

21 205.600(b). Okay. So a quick note about the

22 check list, which are part of the NOSB
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1 subcommittee proposals. Check lists are

2 intended to be a tool to facilitate and

3 document review of the petition substance

4 against the OFPA criteria.

5 So those questions and the check

6 list come straight from OFPA. OFPA doesn't

7 require the check list, so it's really just a

8 tool. It does require, under OFPA, that the

9 Board considers seven different criteria

10 before making its recommendation. So again,

11 a tool to document the evaluation. And I know

12 working with some of the subcommittees,

13 sometimes it's easy to get hung up on the way

14 the check list is set up, on whether to check

15 the yes box or check the no box for some of

16 these complicated things, because sometimes

17 when you're evaluating a substance, it's not

18 so black and white and there might be some

19 gray areas.

20 And so rather than focus on, you

21 know, are you checking the right box, we

22 really want to encourage the subcommittees to
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1 use the narrative responses within the note

2 section to describe how they evaluated the

3 substance. Because really the evaluation is

4 the most important. The yes and no check

5 boxes, you can get into long debates which box

6 is correct, but the narrative responses really

7 do demonstrate that the Board completed its

8 responsibility to evaluate the substance

9 against that criteria.

10 Okay. So Miles mentioned this

11 previously, but in bringing forth those

12 proposals to recommendations, just to mention

13 again, if there are substantive changes

14 between the proposal and what happens at the

15 meeting, that's, you know, fine and reasonable

16 to, you know, to make changes based on public

17 comment, but we want to make sure that if

18 there substantive changes, that those changes

19 go back to subcommittee first for

20 deliberation. It would allow for another

21 public comment opportunity before the Board

22 considers passing the recommendation.
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1 So we want to make sure that

2 there's full consideration to any changes.

3 Sometimes things and seem minor, but then when

4 we get to the rule making stage at the

5 programming side -- the program side, it can

6 be challenging. So we want to make sure to

7 work out those little details so that we can

8 take action on the recommendation as it's

9 submitted.

10 Okay. So a quick note about voting procedures

11 for petitions. So the Board does take two

12 votes on each petition substance. The first

13 motion, or first vote is a classification

14 vote.

15 That's generally only for things

16 that have not been previously classified, so

17 you would be classifying a substances either

18 a synthetic or non-synthetic, or for handling

19 and processing materials, agricultural or

20 non-agricultural.

21 Then the Board would proceed to a

22 second motion which is generally to list, to
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1 remove or to amend an annotation. And for

2 each of those motions they need a decisive

3 majority in order to pass, so that's

4 two-thirds under OFPA, or ten votes out of 15

5 members. Okay. So lots of pieces to this.

6 Lots of parts that make up the Board

7 recommendation. It's easy sometimes to focus

8 on any one particular piece of this puzzle,

9 but really they all play an important role.

10 So there's the petition, the

11 request from an individual organization to

12 change the list, there's third party technical

13 information, there's public comment, there's

14 the proposal from the subcommittee, but the

15 recommendation comes from the full board, and

16 can draw from any of these inputs. So it's

17 important to think about all of them in

18 context, but not any one particular input is

19 more important than the others. Okay. And

20 all are encompassed by the OFPA criteria,

21 which is what we're working off of.

22 I think I'm going to pause there.
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1 I do have some slides on the status of the

2 inerts working group, but I think due to time

3 constraints, we might kick that to the crops

4 subcommittee agenda tomorrow. Looking, does

5 -- he has the -- we'll see how time goes. I

6 think -- all right, we'll hold that for now

7 and move on. Thanks.

8 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Thanks, Lisa.

9 Any questions on that from Board

10 members? Yes, Jennifer.

11 MEMBER TAYLOR: Before you put the

12 circle around it and identified it as to

13 criteria, I was wondering if you wanted to

14 also include a circle or a square for the

15 impact of the program on the Board

16 recommendation.

17 DR. BRINES: Well, we don't take

18 action on a Board recommendation until it

19 passes the Board. I guess --

20 MEMBER TAYLOR: But in the

21 development of the work plan, in development

22 of the issues that should be addressed --
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1 DR. BRINES: Oh, I see. Yeah,

2 this -- I guess the context for this graphic

3 is really just to address petitions, so these

4 are things that generally come unsolicited

5 from the program that are requests from the

6 public to make a change to the National List.

7 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Jay?

8 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. Thank

9 you for that presentation. Can you give me an

10 example of a scenario where you would turn

11 back a petition as being lacking or

12 insufficient in some areas?

13 And as a follow-up to that

14 question, I notice, you know, we get into this

15 debate about single ingredient reviews versus

16 mixtures, and I notice that from time-to-time

17 the Board receives, you know, materials that

18 are actually mixtures as opposed to single

19 ingredients. Would that be the kind of thing

20 that would get screened out, or could get

21 screened out in your evaluation process?

22 DR. BRINES: Okay. Yeah, I'll
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1 answer those each individually. There's lots

2 of examples of incomplete or ineligible

3 petitions. We get a number of petitions for

4 brand name products that we have to turn back

5 because we only petitions for generic

6 materials.

7 Often we return petitions because

8 they're in process still with either FDA or

9 EPA in terms of the their regulatory status,

10 so they're trying to do both, get organic

11 approval at the same time they're working

12 their way through FDA, and we won't accept

13 petitions until they've already received a

14 status through FDA or EPA, so we don't preempt

15 that. And we return a lot of incomplete

16 petitions that don't describe alternatives as

17 well.

18 In terms of single substances,

19 there have been instances where the program

20 has moved forward petitions for certain

21 classes of materials, generally on the basis

22 of other things that are on the National List.
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1 So as an example of a petition on the agenda

2 at this meeting are the vitamins for aquatic

3 livestock, aquatic animals, and also the

4 petition for vaccines for aquatic animals as

5 well. So in that case it's a substance that's

6 already been evaluated and recommended as a

7 group listing by previous Boards and has been

8 implemented into the regulations. Thanks.

9 MR. McEVOY: Okay. We're going to

10 move on to presentation on -- a brief

11 presentation about the rule making process, so

12 Dr. Bailey will give that presentation. Thank

13 you.

14 DR. BAILEY: Well, while we get

15 the presentation up, this is one of my

16 favorite topics to talk about, so glad to have

17 a few minutes on the agenda to do it today.

18 Okay. So this would be a very condensed

19 version of the one that we provided to the

20 Board in February, so I encourage you, if you

21 want more details, to refer to that more

22 detailed presentation on our website.
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1 The purpose of giving this brief

2 overview is sort of for three reasons. One,

3 to response to some public feedback that we've

4 gotten where people don't fully understand

5 what happens once a Board recommendation comes

6 to SCA, what does the rule making process look

7 like?

8 Also to just sort of give you some

9 sense of the long journey that these rules

10 that we work on have to take to see the other

11 side. And finally, to provide the public with

12 a little more information about what is

13 already out there that you could access, and

14 how you can contribute to the process along

15 the way. Okay. So every rule making action

16 that we undertake has to be supported by some

17 legal authority. We turn to OFPA as that

18 legal authority for us to write regulations

19 and that would implement that law.

20 So if you think of OFPA, in a way,

21 as a house that provides the boundaries under

22 which we operate, it provides the foundation,
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1 some of the walls, the roof, and the

2 responsibility of NOP is to fill in some of

3 the details of that house, what does the

4 finished work look like, what are some further

5 details we can provide to the community about

6 how to actually implement the law.

7 We can only issue rules that are

8 within the scope of our -- of that house, of

9 that authorizing statute. So for example we

10 could not propose a rule to have some new

11 requirements for toy safety. We need to

12 operate under the requirements of the statute.

13 And we have our own procedures that we have to

14 follow, every federal agency has to follow

15 these, they're not unique to NOP. We have to

16 issue rules in accordance with something

17 called the Administrative Procedures Act, or

18 APA. And what that means is it sort of sets

19 the responsibilities of the agency to provide

20 for notice and comment on rule making actions

21 and some other details.

22 It also provides and outlines some
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1 of the exemptions to the APA. Often there are

2 some military actions that don't need to go

3 through that rule making process and general

4 statements of policy do not have to go through

5 notice and comment under the APA.

6 So, three bullet points, it's

7 looks pretty simple. Publish a proposed rule

8 in the Federal Register. The Federal Register

9 sort of is our -- almost like a federal

10 newspaper, if you will, that puts out all the

11 rules, final rules, notices, presidential

12 documents that the government may want the

13 public to be aware of.

14 Then we provide interested parties

15 with an opportunity to comment and show data

16 about the proposal that we've made. And

17 third, publish a final rule in the Federal

18 Register notifying people of our decision. In

19 fact, it is quite a bit more complicated. And

20 the Board meeting I unveiled what we call the

21 scroll, so I'll do that here as well, just to

22 give you a sense of really all the steps it
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1 takes, that it's not just these three steps,

2 it's much more than that.

3 So I think Michelle's going to

4 help me with this. And the details aren't

5 important, though you're welcome to look at

6 this during the break if you want to. It's

7 just to give you kind of a visual sense of

8 what we -- the process that we go through.

9 (Pause.)

10 DR. BAILEY: So what this -- and

11 this is after the Board recommendation. So if

12 you start right at the beginning, I'm going to

13 talk about a few of the steps along the way

14 without too much detail. Okay. So given this

15 and the scroll, what happens once we get a

16 Board recommendation, how does the program

17 actually initiate rule making? And the first

18 step, for us, is that we prepare something

19 called the regulatory work plan for every

20 stage of the rule making process.

21 That document is used to

22 communicate sort of up the line, so to speak,
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1 about the objectives, the possible

2 alternatives that we've considered to whatever

3 we'll be proposing and the effects of what

4 we're proposing really to non-technical folks,

5 so oftentimes, you know that we're talking

6 about, a lot technical details here. We're

7 figuring out how to communicate that in a

8 non-technical way to people who have to

9 approve these work plans.

10 It's an important stage because it

11 provides information needed for something

12 called significance of the action, and I'll

13 talk a bit more about that and why it's

14 important in a moment. And it really is an

15 important communication that we use to explain

16 to Office of Management and Budget, who I'll

17 also talk a bit more about, and the public

18 about what the agency intends to work on

19 through rule making. And I'll touch on where

20 you can actual reach out to find a listing of

21 what work plans are on the regulatory plan,

22 not just for USDA but for the entire federal
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1 government.

2 So it's come up at Board meetings

3 in the past, we talk about the rule of Office

4 of Management and Budget, or OMB, regularly.

5 We specifically work within -- with an office

6 within OMB called the Office of Information

7 and Regulatory Affairs, or OIRA, and they

8 serve multiple important roles across the

9 federal government for regulations.

10 They operate to aggregate

11 information across agencies, and facilitate

12 coordination across agencies for regulation.

13 So you can imagine it's important, even within

14 the Board's work and our work. There's

15 overlap -- Lisa just mentioned EPA and FDA --

16 there's overlap in the work that we do. We

17 need to have a mechanism to be able to talk to

18 each other about what our activities are. So

19 OMB sort of serves that point of contact.

20 They also have interest and

21 consideration of the cost and benefits of

22 regulations. Every year they report to
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1 Congress en masse, the sort of overall cost

2 and benefits of regulations that the

3 government has done in a given year. They

4 ensure public engagement in the process, so

5 they're always looking for the importance of

6 providing comment in rule making activities,

7 and ensure compliance with other statutes that

8 we have to meet. One example being the

9 Paperwork Reduction Act, and I'll touch on

10 that as well.

11 So with all the rules moving

12 through the government, they certainly can't

13 review every single one of them. So there's

14 this system by which they designate every

15 action through our work plan that we provide,

16 and it falls into two categories. One is not

17 significant, in which case OMB does not review

18 the rule. For the purposes of organic this is

19 typically -- many of our National List rules

20 are not considered significant by OMB.

21 Or they can consider it a

22 significant, or even economically significant
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1 action, in which case OMB will review the

2 rule. And you'll see some of the things

3 they're looking for and how that does extend

4 the review time for our regulations. For

5 criteria they use to establish the

6 significance designation for a rule, and

7 they're outlined here, in brief, they look at

8 the annual affect on the economy of 100

9 million or more, or sector of the economy that

10 you might be impacting that could trigger a

11 significant designation.

12 If you'd be creating serious

13 inconsistencies with another agency, they'd

14 like to see that and perhaps provide comments

15 if you'll be altering the budgetary impact of

16 the government. So if you're going to be

17 starting up a new program but maybe you don't

18 have the resources to do it, they want to know

19 that, or if it raises novel legal or policy

20 issues.

21 It's important to note that rules

22 that have an effect of over 100 million or
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1 more on the economy are considered at this

2 even higher threshold of economically

3 significant, which means that it triggers

4 Congressional review, which extends -- the

5 bottom line there is it extends review time at

6 the other end before you can get a final rule

7 in effect. So it's creates an additional

8 layer, if you will, to the clearance process

9 and review.

10 In front of us -- I know here

11 right now we have -- in addition to some

12 non-significant National List rules, we have

13 I believe six significant actions that OMB has

14 designated and will want to see as they move

15 their way through the process.

16 So how to you as stakeholders know

17 what rules agencies are working on? Once OMB

18 approves their work plan, this does appear

19 twice a year in various documents that are

20 published in the Register. And, in fact, on

21 OMB's website they provide an agenda of

22 regulatory actions that you can look up. You
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1 can click on the different agencies that will

2 provide an abstract of those actions for you

3 to read.

4 And I believe, as of the fall

5 2013, there's 131 USDA actions on the agenda.

6 Within AMS we had I think eight of the eleven.

7 So we have a pretty significant portion of our

8 particular agency's regulatory agenda at this

9 point. Once we've drafted all of the

10 background, we read our rules in the Register,

11 you'll notice there's sort of a structure to

12 them. There's the background that goes

13 through the Board history, what we're actually

14 -- what our overview of the amendment is, what

15 we're actually proposing to do, how that would

16 affect people.

17 There's also a whole section of

18 what we call sort of supplementary analyses.

19 These are executive orders and other

20 requirements that the federal government

21 agencies are required to go through. I'll

22 just touch on a few. The point is just to let
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1 you know those are other things you'll see in

2 our rules, and each of them requires their own

3 analysis and work by the staff.

4 So the first one, starting at the

5 top, was set by two executive orders called a

6 regulatory impact analysis where the agency is

7 required to evaluate the costs benefits and

8 discuss any alternatives that they could have

9 considered and what the cost implications

10 would be from doing so when we're changing the

11 regulations. This is typically part of our --

12 or is part of all of our significant rules.

13

14 So as one example, we had expected

15 the aquaculture rule to be not significant.

16 OMB believed it was significant, and therefore

17 we ended up having to prepare a cost benefit

18 analysis to support that regulation, which

19 took additional time.

20 Another important example is looking at the

21 Regulatory Flexibility Act. This is done for

22 not significant and significant rules, and the
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1 important take away here is we have to

2 evaluate, again, cost and benefits as it

3 pertains to small entities and businesses.

4 Small Business Administration is

5 interested in agencies' regulatory flexibility

6 analysis. For organics the majority, not all

7 but the majority fall under the criteria that

8 would be considered small businesses. So this

9 is always an important thing we need to go

10 through. And the goal is to look for ways in

11 which small businesses could comply in the

12 least burdensome manner.

13 For some of our rules, if there is

14 going to be a new record keeping or reporting

15 burden, we have to prepare a Paperwork

16 Reduction Act section that basically seeks

17 from OMB approval to add that reporting and

18 record keeping burden to their organic

19 producer or certifying agents, whoever might

20 be impacted by the new requirement. So that's

21 a whole other process that we need to go

22 through.
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1 So these are just some examples to

2 give you a flavor of the additional work that

3 the staff goes through to get these rules

4 through the process. So, great. We say we

5 finished the draft. So if you look at that

6 scroll, just to keep you a little navigated,

7 we're still almost at the beginning where that

8 glass is at this point.

9 So it depends -- how we clear

10 rules for publication really depends and

11 hinges on that significance designation. So

12 on one side of the slide here you can see I

13 have not significant action, the people who

14 need to review and clear off on those actions.

15 On the other side you can see there's a whole

16 lot of people who get added to the list in red

17 there, and you have a significant action.

18 And at the sort of bottom of that

19 list you see OMB has a minimum 90-day review

20 time. So that's about three months that OMB

21 has to review and make comments on significant

22 actions. They could approve it, more often
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1 they have comments that you need to address,

2 and then they'll need to review it again.

3 Then after you made changes to the rule we

4 need to get legal review again to clear it off

5 for publication.

6 So it's just -- it's a long haul

7 and we do a lot of work after we've drafted

8 rules just to facilitate this up the line,

9 because if you have 131 rules at USDA that are

10 all competing for people's time to clear these

11 out, it's a lot of cultivating those things so

12 that we can get them published on behalf of

13 the organic community.

14 So why does rule making take so

15 long? You can see I've divided it into two

16 stages here. The take away that I'd like you

17 to have from here is, is we're kind of part

18 way down the scroll. Now we've got it

19 cleared, we published a proposed rule, we've

20 taken public comments. We get to start this

21 process all over again for the final rule. We

22 need to do another work plan, we need to do
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1 additional analyses if it's a significant

2 action. So it's just a robust process. And

3 for a purpose, because we want to make sure

4 whatever changes we're making in the

5 regulation are well-considered.

6 So how can comments, public

7 comments, affect the final outcome of the

8 final rule? The notice and comment process,

9 as you know, typically we provide 60 days of

10 public comment on most things. That can vary

11 depending on the significance of an action or

12 they need to get something done quickly.

13 Anyone can submit a comment on any

14 part of a proposed rule. It's most helpful

15 when people are specific in their comments to

16 us. In particular, providing alternatives to

17 what we proposed. Sometimes we feel -- we

18 find that people may comment generally that

19 they don't like the rule, but aren't providing

20 the agency with guidance on what they'd like

21 to see instead.

22 The process is not like a ballot
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1 initiative or an up-and-down vote in a

2 legislature. The agency is not permitted to

3 just base the final rule on the number of

4 comments in support of it versus there is to

5 oppose it. Instead, we have to base our

6 reasoning and conclusions on the rule-making

7 record, which consists of comments, data, any

8 expert opinions we might seek, or facts

9 accumulated during the pre-rule and

10 proposed-rule stage.

11 And if the rule-making record

12 contains persuasive new data or sound policy

13 arguments, the agency may decide to terminate

14 the ruling making effort and start over with

15 a new proposal, or the agency may decide to

16 continue the rule making but change aspects of

17 the rule to reflect the new issue. So there's

18 a number of directions we can go based on

19 public comment. We can't really change things

20 too far outside of scope based on comment and

21 finalize that. Often, you'd have to take it

22 back to a proposed rule at that point.
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1 An important note, just so people

2 understand how the Federal Register and the

3 Code of Federal Regulations work together.

4 The CFR is where you should be looking for

5 what the most current requirements are. What

6 happens is the Federal Register staff take

7 everything that's published in the Register

8 and they're the ones responsible for updating

9 the CFR whenever it needs to be updated.

10 So some of our rules go in effect

11 the day after publication, some 30 days after

12 publication, sometimes months after

13 publication. The Federal Register team will

14 keep track of all of those and make those

15 changes when we've basically asked them to

16 make them. So I always encourage people, we

17 all have our printed copies of regulations,

18 and that's nice to have, that it's important

19 you always go back to the CFR for the most

20 up-to-date information.

21 And in summary, really why is this

22 whole process important for us? It's
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1 important because if we end up in sort of a

2 legal battle, courts can find or rule that we

3 went all the way through this process with

4 unlawful -- if it's arbitrary and capricious,

5 an abuse of discretion, not in accordance with

6 the law. So we need to be able to look at the

7 facts presented and the data and make a

8 logical outgrowth or argument based on that

9 information that comes down to the final rule.

10 They can find it unlawful if it's

11 in excess of the agency's statutory authority.

12 That's why we have legal review for anything

13 that you're seeing published in the Federal

14 Register. That's the rule of our attorneys is

15 to help us through that process. Or, if the

16 agency did not follow proper procedure in

17 putting forth the rule. So the process really

18 is a long process, but there's a lot of

19 important reasons and things along the way for

20 us to go through. And I am excited. We

21 have a number of rules, as Miles mentioned,

22 that are getting really into the thick of
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1 things in terms of clearing them out, and so

2 it should be a great, hopefully, rest of the

3 year.

4 Oh, and the last slide. If anyone

5 is a much of a policy wonk as I am, these are

6 some good resources that -- if you want to

7 learn even more about the process, you can

8 read and hopefully they're helpful to you.

9 Thank you.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Melissa.

11 When we were educated on this

12 process, it helped us to understand at the

13 Board level of how we craft the proposals, the

14 language that we include in the proposals to

15 be clear and concise and also how our

16 conversation around the table here can feed

17 the data and the information and the

18 background that the Standards staff needs when

19 they go into this rule making process and

20 defend their actions, if you will.

21 I know a couple of meetings ago,

22 there was concern that we, quote, had a
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1 pre-meeting and there was lack of deliberation

2 at the microphone, and the audience felt they

3 weren't quite sure of what was happening. I

4 urge you all to -- it's not a pre-meeting, but

5 it's a sort of walk-through, which is very

6 different, which just allows us to have --

7 understand a lot of that, to put together a

8 better work product for the Standards staff to

9 have to do their work.

10 So the Board members now

11 understand we're going to have these

12 conversations and you'll see in our proposals

13 that we're trying to really be sure the

14 Standards staff has the information they need

15 across all segments of the thought processes

16 of the different committee members. So thank

17 you all for your work.

18 MR. McEVOY: Yes, one thing I

19 wanted to reiterate is that we've had a lot of

20 discussion of the economic impact of the rule

21 making actions, and one of the things that you

22 have to keep in mind is that -- it's not that
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1 the actions that we take can't have economic

2 impact, it's just that there's a process that

3 we have to go through with departmental

4 clearance and with OMB to explain what the

5 economic impact is.

6 And the more information that we

7 can get form this process, the NOSB process

8 about any economic impact of the

9 recommendations, it just makes our job easier

10 when we go through the development of the

11 proposals to get it through the clearance

12 process.

13 So when we're asking for questions

14 about economic impact, it's not to slow the

15 process down, it's just that we need that

16 information in order to be successful to move

17 things through the process.

18 So any other questions from the

19 Board? Jean.

20 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So Melissa, we

21 on the Board, and also members of the public,

22 can get frustrated when the NOSB may have
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1 passed a recommendation like animal welfare or

2 whatever it might be, or the aquaculture

3 proposed standards, and it just seems to take

4 like, you know, a hundred years for stuff to

5 get done, so to speak. We understand, and

6 have done from our training and from this too,

7 is that there are all these steps to take.

8 Does it make any difference if we

9 keep saying, well, you know, where is this

10 thing, Melissa. You know, why isn't -- what

11 stage -- where is it on this line. And we

12 know you have many priorities that you have to

13 set. How do you decide that you're going to

14 spend more time on animal welfare or on

15 aquaculture when we would like to see all of

16 them done, of course, right away?

17 DR. BAILEY: Yes, that's a good

18 question. Yes, our -- so back in this last

19 summer, we had to propose a fairly lengthy

20 memo about what our regulatory priorities were

21 going to be. Naturally, to the top of that

22 list at the time would have been any Sunset
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1 rules.

2 For a long time, we were trying to

3 chip away at some of these other practice

4 standards, but at the end of the day we had to

5 get Sunset regulations done because of the

6 time crunch that we were under. So those

7 would just naturally rise to the top of the

8 list.

9 At times, there's been -- I know

10 people probably recall with methionine, there

11 was an expiration date. At one point, there

12 was a tetracycline expiration date. Those,

13 again, took precedence because of the time

14 crunch that we were under, and, you know, had

15 difficulty working on those projects.

16 So I think it's always helpful to

17 hear from the community about what the

18 priorities are. It doesn't necessarily always

19 mean they're going to be able to move faster,

20 but it helps guide our own sort of internal

21 process and discussing with people up the line

22 how important things are to get through,
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1 especially, again, if you're kind of competing

2 for people's time to get things cleared.

3 So I would say yes, it's helpful;

4 unfortunately, sometimes we can't always say

5 it's going to be exactly four months, or six

6 months, so yes.

7 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I think it helps

8 to continually ask questions of not just the

9 program, but USDA in general about what the

10 status is of these various recommendations,

11 because it shows to the Department the

12 importance of organics and moving forward with

13 these recommendations, so.

14 And you can see by the regulatory

15 work plan, there's a lot of organic items on

16 that regulatory work plan currently. So

17 there's a lot of support for organics at USDA.

18 We are a very small program, but very active

19 in the regulatory arena and we still have a

20 lot more work to do, but asking questions is

21 a good thing to do.

22 Okay. Jay.
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1 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

2 Here's a question that goes to the difference

3 perhaps between a FACA -- a pure FACA board

4 and a FACA board that's also governed by

5 enabling legislation, like OFPA.

6 Do you see that there's any

7 difference there in terms of the requirement

8 for the agency to commit resources to a board

9 such as this Board, which has authorities from

10 two different statutes, in which this Board,

11 in collaboration with the program and the

12 public, is seeking to grow organic, invest in

13 integrity and essentially respond to petitions

14 as they come in? Are those unique sort of

15 functions and mandates that come from the

16 enabling legislation? Are those mandates

17 somehow -- do they create sort of a

18 requirement on the program to commit

19 additional resources as they come in -- and

20 we're glad to see additional resources having

21 come in through the Farm Bill -- to ensure

22 that we're being more responsive, not less?
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1 Because what it sounds like is

2 happening here is we're getting a little less

3 responsive to the needs as identified by the

4 organic community by virtue of some

5 prioritization that goes on at the program

6 under the FACA authority. I would like to

7 tease out a little bit how you feel we're

8 complying, or are we in any way different

9 under OFPA that really requires us to commit

10 more resources than would otherwise be the

11 case to respond to the need -- and most of the

12 needs we're responding to as a Board are

13 growth-oriented.

14 It's to enhance the market and to

15 grow the label, the effect of the label. And

16 yet it seems like this focus on the onerous

17 nature of the, you know, of moving through the

18 rule making is slowing that down, is holding

19 back the Board wanting to be responsive to

20 what it's hearing from the community.

21 MR. McEVOY: Okay. So the

22 National Organic Standards Board is one of
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1 about 160 FACA committees that -- and 140 of

2 those are statutorily-defined boards, so it's

3 really not anything different than most of the

4 FACA committees. Congress appropriates money

5 to the program for a number of different

6 items, has not appropriated any specific money

7 for the National Organic Standards Board.

8 We support the -- the Board is

9 supported by a budget, I think it's $200,000

10 a year, which does not actually cover all the

11 costs of supporting the work of the Board.

12 That supports the travel, about $50,000 a

13 meeting for travel expenses. It supports the

14 staff, Michelle Arsenault, and -- but there's

15 a lot of other work, additional work that

16 happens at the program and Departmental level

17 to support the Board. So it's a lot more than

18 $200,000 a year that we're investing to

19 support the Board.

20 We've put significantly more

21 resources into supporting the work of the

22 Board over the last few years. The reason for
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1 us to explain this regulatory process is

2 because we've heard a lot of frustration from

3 folks of how come it takes so long and why

4 does it take so long, why can't we implement

5 all these NOSB recommendations?

6 One, they're complicated. They

7 require a lot of review, the process is long

8 for any rule making that the agency or USDA

9 does, so we're just explaining what that

10 process is so there's a better understanding,

11 so we can move things through as effectively

12 as possible.

13 The other thing you see is that

14 USDA is putting a lot of resources in

15 supporting that pipeline of organic actions.

16 So over the last few years there's been many

17 rule making actions that have been supported

18 by high levels within the Department, and that

19 continues to be there, that support for lots

20 of actions to occur.

21 Okay. I think we're going to move

22 on to everybody's favorite topic, Sunset
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1 revision. So with that I'm going to turn it

2 over to Dr. Brines.

3 DR. BRINES: All right. Thanks,

4 Miles. Actually, I think that's a good

5 transition into talking about the Sunset

6 review process, because certainly as we looked

7 over the past several years at where we're

8 spending our rule making time, a lot of that

9 has been on Sunset rules.

10 And for removing things, we

11 definitely have to go through the rule making

12 process, but in looking at how we can

13 implement other Board recommendations, you

14 know, that's what instigated our looking into

15 this process, is can we spend plus time on

16 some of these things that aren't serving the

17 process.

18 Okay. So just a general overview.

19 In September, as you know, the National

20 Organic Program announced a transparent and

21 streamlined Sunset review and renewal process.

22 So that announcement was published in the
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1 Federal Register and as well went out through

2 our electronic newsletter. The purpose of the

3 updated procedure is to clarify the process,

4 provide increased opportunity for public

5 comment, and ensure that a decisive majority

6 vote happens for all recommendations to change

7 the National List, and that's whether those

8 changes are from the petition process or from

9 Sunset.

10 Okay. So why did Sunset need a

11 revamp? We had noted a number of draw backs

12 to the previous process. Each Sunset year

13 required three separate rule making documents.

14 So Melissa talked about proposed and final

15 rules. Under the previous Sunset process, we

16 were also publishing an advanced notice of

17 proposed rule making. And a lot of the work

18 that we were doing on our end was in trying to

19 move those documents through the clearance

20 process. It was taking a lot of time and

21 deferring work on other important priorities

22 of the Board in implementing those
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1 recommendations.

2 In addition, substances were

3 discussed at a single public meeting, and

4 removal of a substance under Sunset review

5 could occur with a minority of votes. So with

6 the way that the votes -- the voting motions

7 were previously structured, it could take less

8 than a majority to remove a substance from the

9 National List and change the regulations.

10 In addition, we had had some

11 difficulty implementing annotation changes

12 that were made during the previous Sunset

13 reviews. Again, because we're under time

14 constraints in getting things cleared, having

15 these discussed at a single public meeting was

16 becoming problematic to meet our Sunset

17 deadlines if we didn't have all of the

18 information we needed.

19 Okay. So in looking at how we

20 might revamp the process, we go back first to

21 the statute, in the Sunset provision of OFPA.

22 And I think Miles had a version of this slide
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1 earlier today. And again, what OFPA says is

2 that no exemption or prohibition contained on

3 the National List shall be valid unless the

4 NOSB has reviewed such exemption or

5 prohibition within five years, and the

6 Secretary has renewed such exemption or

7 prohibition. So it clearly distinguishes

8 between the responsibilities of the Board to

9 review, and the Secretary to renew.

10 Okay. So through the new process

11 -- and I'll get into the logistics of the

12 process a little bit later -- but the overall

13 benefits are the thorough and transparent

14 review process for all substances over two

15 Board meetings. So two public comment

16 opportunities over which the Board completes

17 its review of each substance.

18 It also ensures that any change to

19 the National List, whether, again, that's

20 through the petition process or during Sunset

21 review, is supported by a decisive majority of

22 the Board. And it's decisive as defined under
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1 OFPA, which is two-thirds.

2 It also streamlines, again, our

3 administration of the National List by rule

4 making. Again, we have to do rule making for

5 any removals, but if the material remains on

6 the list, that's not something that's required

7 by OFPA.

8 Okay. So there's been some

9 questions about whether this change will

10 weaken the standards, and no, we don't think

11 it will. The Board still retains its ability

12 to recommend removal of substances on the

13 National List through the Sunset process. So

14 previously, we did look at other materials

15 that have come off the list through the Sunset

16 process, and what we found is when new

17 information became available or alternatives,

18 that those substances that were removed from

19 the National List during the Sunset process

20 had at least two-thirds votes in favor of

21 their removal. So even under this new

22 process, if we were to look at those older
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1 substances, they still would have been

2 removed. Generally, those removals are

3 well-supported by the Board.

4 So again, just a couple of

5 examples recently, sulfur dioxide for rodent

6 control, some forms of pectin and forms of

7 lecithin that were removed from use, silicon

8 dioxide, some forms of that, and hops. So

9 again, generally when things come off the

10 board through Sunset, they had been previously

11 supported by the majority of the Board

12 members.

13 Okay. So what is the process? So

14 again, just like in OFPA, there's two

15 components. There's the Board's part to

16 review and there's the USDA action to renew

17 for those that are continuing on. So I'll go

18 through each of these steps and a couple of

19 the key documents that are associated with the

20 review.

21 Okay. So in terms of the

22 mechanics, and I'll use Sunset 2015, since
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1 it's on the agenda for this meeting just as an

2 example, as we go through the steps. So step

3 one is the meeting announcement in the Federal

4 Register inviting comment on the Sunset list,

5 so for Sunset 2015 that's inviting comments at

6 this meeting. That background information may

7 include any request from the subcommittee

8 about any additional information that they're

9 looking for. So again, that's published in

10 advance. It includes a summary of the status

11 of the substance it's listing and its Sunset

12 date.

13 So step two is written public

14 comment. So these are the comments that were

15 submitted in advance of this meeting for

16 Sunset 2015, and that includes all the written

17 comment that was submitted by the comment

18 deadline. Next, we're -- and this is where

19 we're currently at for Sunset 2015 is step

20 three, the first Board meeting. So at this

21 meeting for the crop -- part of the crops

22 agenda and the handling agenda, there's a
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1 section designated for the Sunset substances.

2 So during that section of the

3 agenda, the subcommittees will summarize the

4 background information on those Sunset

5 substances, any public comment received. They

6 may receive additional in person public

7 comment at this meeting, and there'll be

8 deliberations about the need for the

9 substance. So we're expecting to have a

10 thorough discussion about the comments that

11 have come in for those Sunset substances at

12 this meeting in anticipation of any proposed

13 removals that might happen later on.

14 Okay. So what happens after this

15 meeting? The subcommittees will be go back to

16 their committees and will prepare a document

17 which is called the preliminary review. So

18 that preliminary review may include any

19 motions for removal based on that information

20 and deliberation that happens at this meeting

21 for Sunset 2015. So just like a petition

22 would have a proposal from the subcommittee,
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1 in this case we're having a preliminary review

2 document that'll come out of the subcommittee.

3 And again, if there's any information about

4 substances that may need to be removed from

5 the National List because they no longer meet

6 the OFPA criteria, that would be included in

7 a preliminary review for public comment.

8 Okay. So we will publish that

9 preliminary review for public comment in

10 advance of the second meeting, which will

11 happen this fall. When the public comment

12 period closes prior to the meeting, the

13 subcommittee will analyze any written public

14 comments that were submitted on the

15 preliminary review before the fall meeting

16 occurs. And then at the next fall meeting,

17 the subcommittees will present their

18 preliminary review just like they present any

19 other proposal, receive public comment at the

20 meeting, discuss any written public comments

21 that were received in response to the proposal

22 prior to the meeting, and then they will vote
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1 on any motions for removal that were included

2 in the preliminary review. And after that

3 meeting concludes, the Board will complete a

4 document called the Sunset Review.

5 So that would complete the Board's

6 responsibility. AMS would receive that Sunset

7 review document, and we have a template

8 available that the Board will use for that,

9 and consider rule making action for any

10 recommended removals. And then we would have

11 to go through the rule making process for

12 removals. For any renewals under the Sunset

13 provision, we would issue a Federal Register

14 notice that would announce the renewal of any

15 substances under the Sunset review.

16 So we see a lot of advantages to

17 this two-meeting process. One is it allows

18 for earlier information gathering at the first

19 meeting, so this is the opportunity for

20 comments to come in on those Sunset substances

21 so that the Board has time to consider them

22 before making any proposals to remove at the
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1 second meeting. At the second meeting, it

2 would allow for the Board to consider any

3 comments on the proposed removals based on

4 information received during the first meeting.

5 So the process is over two meetings and it's

6 the full Board having that deliberation at

7 each of those meetings.

8 If new information is submitted

9 late at the last minute that may have merit,

10 you know, there's always an opportunity for

11 new information to come in, but we really

12 think that new information submitting at the

13 last minute should be gone through the

14 petition process. Really, we're trying to

15 have the information submitted for Sunset

16 review at the first meeting to ensure that we

17 can meet any deadlines under the Sunset review

18 before the Sunset deadline for each substance.

19 Okay. As I mentioned, the new

20 process does have a different voting procedure

21 as well. Instead of voting to relist

22 substances, the Board will be proposing to
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1 remove a substance during the Sunset review,

2 and that removal motion will need a two-thirds

3 majority as a decisive vote under OFPA. And

4 the reason that we made this decision was to

5 align the number of votes required with other

6 actions that the Board recommends. So

7 including petitions to remove or petitions to

8 list, the Board is making a decision to --

9 that's going to have a net effect, if

10 implemented, of changing the regulations and

11 that recommendation needs to be supported by

12 a decisive majority of the Board.

13 We also understand that because

14 the Board will only be voting on those

15 removals, it will increase efficiency a bit at

16 the Board meetings. But really focusing the

17 deliberation on any of those proposals to

18 remove. So we're expecting, you know, a

19 robust discussion rather than needing to vote

20 on every individual listing.

21 Okay. So there's been some

22 questions about how does the Board complete
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1 its Sunset review for the Sunset substances --

2 for ones that the Board is not recommending to

3 remove, how do you know the review has been

4 completed if there's no vote?

5 So for removals, it's simple in

6 that there would be a vote at the second

7 meeting that -- and if that vote passes by

8 two-thirds, then that would be recommended for

9 removal under Sunset and that recommendation

10 would be passed on to the NOP. For other

11 reviews where removal is not being

12 recommended, the review is complete at the end

13 of the second meeting.

14 So we've defined the process. The

15 process occurs over two meetings. The

16 conclusion of that second meeting, if there's

17 no removal motion, the Board has completed its

18 obligation under OFPA to review. So at the

19 conclusion of the second meeting, the Chair

20 will submit the NOSB-reviewed document to NOP.

21 Again, recommendations are not required for

22 Sunset renewals, only for removals, and that
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1 structure of the two-meeting process meets

2 OFPA's Sunset requirement for the NOSB to

3 review materials.

4 Okay. So just a quick couple of

5 other notes on time lines. So in January, we

6 did publish a memo to the Board on Sunset

7 review time lines, which identifies the two

8 meetings that the Board will use to address

9 each substance for the next couple of Sunset

10 reviews. It also includes deadlines for the

11 Board to request technical reports. We

12 understand since the information will be

13 occurring over two meetings, we want to make

14 sure that technical information is available

15 to the public as early as possible. So we did

16 put in deadlines that we should be able to

17 work with with contracting to get those

18 available in time. And the review also

19 includes a list of substances scheduled to

20 Sunset 3/20/17. So that's meetings through

21 2017, so Sunset dates through 2019 currently.

22 And just one other note about
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1 Sunset dates. If they aren't in the notice,

2 we do have a list of Sunset dates which is

3 published in our program handbook on our

4 website. The dates for the Sunset are set

5 five years from the effective date of when the

6 substance was added to the list. So for

7 efficiency, we conduct the Sunset reviews by

8 calendar year, but there's different dates

9 depending on the substance. So sometimes

10 there's multiple dates within a full Sunset

11 year.

12 Right. So just, I guess in

13 conclusion, the intent of the new process is

14 to ensure that there's a decisive majority

15 vote for all recommendations to change the

16 National List. It does maintain the Board's

17 responsibility to review the substances on the

18 National List and under the Sunset provision,

19 and it streamlines our administration of the

20 renewal process. It allows us to focus

21 additional resources in implementing other

22 important Board recommendations on standards
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1 as well. All right. Thank you.

2 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thank you,

3 Lisa.

4 Are there questions from the Board

5 clarifying from Lisa, or for -- or Miles?

6 Jean.

7 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Lisa,

8 obviously I'm new to the -- I've been going

9 through these Sunset materials, and I started

10 on half a dozen of them that were during -- in

11 livestock, and I was really quite astounded to

12 see how difficult it was in terms of public

13 transparency to actually follow the thought

14 processes and the materials that were used to

15 come to decisions on Sunset, to, you know,

16 keep them or not. Then it's quite, sort of a

17 rabbit warren to go through to find all of

18 these materials.

19 So I would like you to explain, if

20 you would, how it is that we've been working

21 together, the NOP and the Board, to try to

22 develop these templates that will allow there
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1 to be a public record that will give greater

2 transparency. Because I know I've had

3 questions from the public is that what -- can

4 they see what we're doing and how we're doing

5 it, and, you know, how we've been developing

6 materials, how will the public be able to see

7 those. You know what I mean, those templates?

8 DR. BRINES: Sure. Yes, I mean,

9 what we publish in advance of this meeting for

10 Sunset 2015 is basically a table of the

11 substances, which included reference to where

12 it is on the National List, links to previous

13 technical reports, sometimes there are

14 several, depending on how long a substance has

15 been on the list, as well as generally links

16 to the Federal Register notice that added the

17 substance to the list. So that document often

18 includes any discussion of comment we might

19 have received through the rule making process,

20 which can be helpful as well.

21 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I think what our

22 goal is, as you mentioned, Jean, is that the
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1 previous Sunset processes, it's hard to follow

2 the documents from the past. And what we're

3 trying to do is be as transparent as possible.

4 There's still more, additional information

5 that will be part of this process to make that

6 as transparent and available to the public as

7 possible as we continue to implement this

8 Sunset process.

9 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: In the interest

11 of, you know, sort of carrying out the laws as

12 I think we all agree, it's supposed to be --

13 you know, we want to have a robust discussion

14 with all points of view on the table. So I

15 think partly what I'd like to see happen here

16 in this segment is get some real clarity on

17 the points of view that are out there in

18 implementation, starting with this concept of

19 majority and minority.

20 Miles, you have said that the

21 minority shouldn't stop a material from being

22 relisted, or should not allow a material to be
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1 delisted, either way you want to think about

2 it. And in fact, whether you're talking about

3 Robert's Rules of Order, in which the most

4 important votes required are two-thirds, or if

5 you're talking about the historic application

6 of OFPA with a decisive vote for relisting.

7 The whole purpose of the minority having

8 considerable control, that is six members of

9 this Board, is so that we force, as close as

10 possible, some consensus among Board members

11 because these are critical decisions.

12 And if we lose the trust of any

13 one of the stakeholder groups, be it consumers

14 or environmentalists or farmers, if we lost

15 that, that what you're referring to as a

16 minority, then we really risk the credibility

17 and the trust in the label. If consumers walk

18 away from this family or this community or

19 this market, then we have nothing. We're left

20 with nothing.

21 So the way Congress envisioned

22 this was to give tremendous power to the
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1 minority to force a discussion and to move

2 toward consensus. And that's historically

3 exactly what this Board has done. No one is

4 perfectly happy with every decision typically,

5 but it drives us toward that consensus. And,

6 in fact, that's what Robert's Rules of Order

7 tries to do as well.

8 So I think it's really a mistake

9 to keep diminishing the role of the minority

10 in the context of reviewing the allowable

11 materials, the National List materials.

12 That's one that I really think we should have

13 a discussion as a Board on that point so that

14 -- with the community so that people

15 understand that that's a basic, important,

16 critical philosophical shift and shift in

17 interpretation of law.

18 The second point is that you --

19 the only document we really have that's

20 official is a Federal Register notice of

21 September 16th, right, of last year, 2013.

22 And in that document it's very clear that only
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1 if warranted, and I'm quoting, the NOSB

2 subcommittees can develop proposals to remove

3 substances as part of their preliminary

4 review. And then each subcommittee chair

5 leads the full NOSB discussion on the

6 subcommittee preliminary reviews and any

7 associated proposals to remove substances from

8 the National List. And then finally, if a

9 subcommittee had published a proposal to

10 remove a substance, then a member of the NOSB

11 can make a motion to remove the substance from

12 the National List.

13 I understand your interpretation

14 of that, and that you may have an

15 interpretation that allows for a full board

16 discussion, but there's nothing required in

17 that September 16 Federal Register to remove

18 anything other than a delisting motion on to

19 the full Board, which means you're vesting

20 with the subcommittee authorities that really

21 are only vested with the NOSB, the full NOSB.

22 So we either have to correct that
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1 September 16 Federal Register notice. I don't

2 think clarifying it is -- to your intent,

3 would be sufficient, and if you want to walk

4 us through that language and explain how if a

5 subcommittee does not pass a motion to delist,

6 how, based on this Federal Register notice,

7 that motion -- that is, a motion for

8 essentially an allowance for relisting based

9 on a review -- will come to the full Board for

10 deliberation and a vote.

11 Okay. So I think we need clarity

12 on that. And if, in fact, you see this

13 differently than as we've interpreted the

14 words on the page, that would be helpful to

15 hear at this juncture.

16 So, you know, at the end of the

17 day here, we're talking -- as I said earlier,

18 we're talking about public trust in this

19 process. You know, streamlining is

20 streamlining, but if we're streamlining at the

21 expense of public trust in the label at the

22 end of the day, then we haven't achieved
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1 anything except streamlining for purposes of

2 avoiding an otherwise onerous regulatory

3 process. So you may have achieved an end that

4 you think is important, and is important, I'm

5 not denying it, but at the expense of what?

6 At the expense of public trust and value of

7 that label.

8 So as a Board member, I feel that

9 this Board has to help strike that balance and

10 has to work in collaboration with the program

11 to give you the feedback -- or the program the

12 feedback that it needs to make sure that we

13 don't alienate major stakeholder groups in the

14 organic community that in and of themselves

15 may -- you may call a minority, but if they

16 walk away from the table, we're left with

17 virtually nothing.

18 So I hope we can, throughout these

19 next several days, can come to an

20 understanding about those perspectives and see

21 if we can reincorporate somehow those elements

22 into the implementation of the statute, which
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1 is carefully calibrated to ensure that we all

2 do work together and hear each other. Thanks.

3 MR. McEVOY: Okay Jay, you said a

4 lot of things there.

5 (Applause.)

6 MR. McEVOY: And there were many

7 things there that I totally support. The idea

8 of consensus, clear process. So a couple of

9 things is-- one is, as we said, the NOSB is

10 responsible for renewing these substances

11 every five years as part of the Sunset review,

12 and that's what the process lays out, is that

13 process.

14 There are no decisions that are

15 made at a subcommittee level. The

16 subcommittee has a role to play on all kinds

17 of things with the Board, but the place where

18 those decisions, where the review is

19 completed, is at the full Board meetings. So

20 it sounds like there's some questions, but the

21 process is, is that the subcommittee reviews

22 things, brings proposals to the full Board,
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1 but the full Board is the one that has the

2 discussion and the final determination.

3 So thank you for your perspective,

4 and are there questions?

5 CHAIR STONE: So Jay, and to

6 Jean's point, you know, with this new process,

7 we're developing these templates and charts

8 and tracking mechanisms, and so some of this

9 is just finalizing the mechanics of how it

10 works through the system, but for that very

11 reason, it's not necessary for Federal

12 Register notice I guess, but we're still

13 working through the mechanics.

14 And my conversation with

15 individual Board members is yes, there's an

16 assumption that every material will come

17 before the full Board in some form or fashion.

18 We're just not sure what that physically looks

19 like in the process of making these lists of

20 hundreds of materials, and the review going --

21 leading up to that.

22 Any -- Francis.
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1 MEMBER THICKE: So Miles, then, in

2 the case of a subcommittee that does not put

3 forth a proposal to deny or to delist, how

4 does the Board technically review that, the

5 full Board review that proposal -- or that

6 material?

7 MR. McEVOY: So the subcommittees

8 do not have to put forward a proposal to

9 remove. In discussions with you all, it

10 sounds like you really want to vote on things,

11 that you want to vote on every Sunset

12 material. So if the subcommittees, if the

13 Board wants to have a proposal on the table

14 for removal for every substance, you can do

15 that.

16 The proposal to remove should be

17 based on the criteria in OFPA. There should

18 be some basis for a proposal to remove. But

19 to have just something on the table so there

20 can always be a full Board discussion, a

21 proposal to remove, even though the

22 subcommittee members may not support that
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1 proposal to remove, it could still be on the

2 table for discussion for full review.

3 So that's where the full Board

4 then could make that determination, that vote,

5 on whether or not to remove that substance.

6 To vote to remove the substance should be

7 based on the OFPA criteria of determining how

8 a substance fails to meet one of those seven

9 criteria.

10 CHAIR STONE: Nick.

11 MEMBER MARAVELL: So if a Board

12 member who's not on the subcommittee feels

13 that a material fails to meet the OFPA

14 criteria, that Board member would not have the

15 opportunity to realize a discussion and a vote

16 on that substance, if a subcommittee did not

17 make a recommendation to delist, is that --

18 did I misunderstand it, or is --

19 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I think you

20 misunderstood it.

21 MEMBER MARAVELL: Oh, good.

22 MR. McEVOY: You have two --
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: Please explain.

2 MR. McEVOY: -- you have two

3 meetings, right. So you have the first

4 meeting to discuss the public comment, the

5 technical reports, all the background

6 information, why it got onto the National List

7 in the first place, right. So that's the

8 purpose of the first meeting.

9 There's going to be a full

10 discussion of all the Sunset materials, one by

11 one. That information will go back to the

12 subcommittees. There can be any member of the

13 Board that can raise concerns about a

14 particular Sunset material during the full

15 Board discussion. If the subcommittee can,

16 they always have a proposal on the table to

17 remove, so you always, at the full Board

18 meeting, have the ability to vote and

19 determine the criteria. That's what's the

20 responsibility of the full Board is.

21 The subcommittee is simply

22 focusing, just like with all your -- you know,
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1 all the petitioned substances, the other

2 things that are on the NOSB work plan, the

3 subcommittees put a little more focus on the

4 things that are on their work plan and then

5 put proposals forward to the full Board for

6 consideration.

7 CHAIR STONE: Colehour.

8 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. I

9 guess as a follow-up to Nick's question and

10 your response, Miles, I just need to better

11 understand the choice of the words "can" and

12 "could" in terms of, the subcommittee chairs

13 could make those choices to put such a thing

14 forth, but like Nick suggested, if nobody on

15 the subcommittee is encouraging it, they could

16 choose not to.

17 So I guess I'm asking, will this

18 be an NOP requirement or this is just a

19 possible guidance? I just -- I don't get how

20 this is going to play out in reality.

21 MR. McEVOY: Right. Well, you

22 have to remember that the responsibility that
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1 the Board has during Sunset is to review the

2 substances. There's no requirement that you

3 have a vote to remove. So it's your option if

4 you want to have that on the table. Your only

5 requirement is to review these substances

6 every five years. So that's why it's a "may",

7 you may put that proposal on the table to

8 remove, but it's not a requirement to have a

9 proposal on the table to remove these

10 substances.

11 CHAIR STONE: Jean.

12 MEMBER RICHARDSON: There's

13 obviously a lack of clarity, and yesterday at

14 the NOC meeting that I attended for a short

15 period of time, these same questions were

16 raised by a range of stakeholders around the

17 table. And we all understand that the present

18 NOP staff, Lisa, Melissa, Miles sitting here,

19 it is your intent that all of these materials

20 come to the full Board.

21 The trouble is, the Federal

22 Register seems to lack the necessary clarity,
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1 and I'm not sure whether we can answer it here

2 around the table right now, but somehow or

3 other we have to have, in writing, this intent

4 so that there is -- there are reassurances, as

5 Jay put, for the sort of, the integrity of the

6 whole process.

7 And I -- you know, we trust that

8 you're doing the right things, but if there's

9 a lack of clarity on a very serious issue like

10 this, which is seen by a large number of

11 stakeholders as being a problem, I think that

12 we need to put our heads together and work out

13 how we can provide that necessary clarity and

14 reassurance.

15 CHAIR STONE: Zea.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. As

17 subcommittee chair of the crops committee, if

18 I interpret what I think I heard Miles say

19 correctly, we have substances for Sunset

20 review and this is the first meeting we'll

21 talk about them. Any Board member who wishes

22 to raise concerns during our discussion
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1 tomorrow, whether they're on the subcommittee

2 or not, can encourage us on the subcommittee

3 to come forward with a proposal to remove for

4 the next meeting.

5 So if you read the public comment

6 as I did, we all read the public comment and

7 some commenters say, well, this should be

8 removed for this reason, all any member of the

9 Board has to do is say, during our discussion,

10 these concerns are raised, I think we should

11 consider removal, then the subcommittee will

12 take it and work on it for the next meeting

13 and possibly bring -- probably -- you know, I

14 would respect the process as chair to bring

15 forward the motion for removal.

16 DR. BAILEY: Jean, to just follow

17 up on your comments. Just to be clear in the

18 notice, and I'm not sure if people are missing

19 this or not, but the preliminary review -- so

20 we're in the first meeting right now. All of

21 the substances for Sunset 2015 will be

22 discussed at this meeting.
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1 Those same substances, in the

2 fall, regardless of whether there's a proposal

3 to remove, will again be part of the

4 preliminary review that the subcommittee puts

5 forth and will, again, all be discussed by the

6 full Board at the second meeting. So there is

7 consistency between the first and second

8 meeting that all of those individual materials

9 will have an opportunity to be discussed,

10 whether it's findings of just the review or

11 putting actually on the floor a proposal to

12 remove at the second meeting.

13 So I'm sort of hearing -- what I

14 think I'm hearing is concern that some

15 materials won't even be discussed at the

16 second meeting, and that's just not the case.

17 CHAIR STONE: And we're

18 pre-loading time for all of this. We're

19 starting way ahead and 16 and 17 is right

20 here in front of us.

21 So Jay, if you'll wrap this up?

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, I'll try.
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1 Melissa, that's an interesting interpretation,

2 but it really -- when you publish a Federal

3 Register notice that says if a subcommittee

4 had published a proposal to remove a

5 substance, then a member of the NOSB can make

6 a motion to remove, that precludes a member,

7 such as the Honorable Member from Maryland has

8 suggested, if he was not on a subcommittee,

9 and the probability didn't actually pan out as

10 the Honorable Member from California

11 suggested, then we would be lacking a motion

12 published, made available to the public, and

13 therefore the introduction of a motion to

14 delist at that second meeting would be

15 considered untimely, as referenced in the

16 Federal Register notice and therefore out of

17 order.

18 So what you're describing is fine,

19 that makes sense, but that is not what is on

20 the page. So unless you can reinterpret this

21 for me, if a subcommittee had published a

22 proposal to remove a substance, then a member
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1 of the NOSB can make a motion to remove a

2 substance from the National List.

3 DR. BAILEY: No, that -- well, I

4 wasn't actually commenting on that portion of

5 the notice. I mean, that's fine, what you

6 just said. I was just saying that what I was

7 hearing was that people were concerned some of

8 these materials would not even be discussed at

9 the second meeting, and I was clarifying that

10 the notice is clear on that point, that all of

11 those materials will, in fact, be discussed at

12 the second meeting.

13 MEMBER FELDMAN: Right. But

14 discussion without the ability to vote for a

15 delisting motion, given all the hypotheticals

16 of probability, may or can, these are not

17 words in either regulatory or statutory

18 language that ensure that the full Board

19 becomes a deliberative process that allows for

20 a delisting motion. And that's key.

21 You know, when I first got on the

22 Board, Miles explained to me and the other new
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1 members that the Board lacking an action on a

2 Sunset meant that the material would be

3 delisted. And that meant that we had to

4 really get ourselves in gear to take action to

5 prevent a delisting, because a lack of action

6 resulted in a delisting.

7 Now we're being told a lack of

8 action results in a relisting, and some of us

9 obviously believe there's a legal question

10 there. But leave that aside. If this, from

11 a FACA perspective, doesn't allow for full

12 deliberations and a vote for delisting, then

13 I think we have a FACA problem in terms of the

14 Board not having the ability to vote when a

15 member of the Board wants to raise a motion

16 that had not been passed out of subcommittee.

17 So that's a FACA problem.

18 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I would just

19 respectfully disagree that -- what your

20 responsibility is, is to review these

21 substances. There's no requirement that

22 there's a vote on the table to remove these
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1 substances. And -- but you have lots of

2 options to do that, and that's what this

3 meeting is about is to discuss these

4 substances. If you want a proposal to remove,

5 get it into the record, it'll become part of

6 the proposal, then it can be part of the next

7 meeting so you can have a vote on removing

8 these substances. So yes, that's it.

9 CHAIR STONE: So Jay, it is

10 incumbent on us to be out in front at this

11 first meeting when they're first announced,

12 make sure the members of the public are aware

13 that they're -- it's in the first meeting, et

14 cetera, to not wait for that second meeting.

15 So it's a little tougher on us to stay in

16 front of these things to avoid the concern

17 that you have.

18 With that, it's twelve -- oh,

19 Calvin.

20 SECRETARY WALKER: I have some

21 comments and questions. It's my view, looking

22 at the new change, is that it seems like I'm
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1 not hearing that -- I was under the impression

2 that all materials will be voted on by the

3 Board, whether at the first or the second

4 meeting. Is that -- will the Board as a whole

5 get a chance to vote on every material for

6 Sunset?

7 MR. McEVOY: The Board reviews

8 each -- every material during Sunset. Your

9 responsibility is to review these substances.

10 You can have a proposal to remove every

11 substance if you would like, but it's not a

12 requirement. Your responsibility is to review

13 each of these substances every five years.

14 SECRETARY WALKER: And that's the

15 rub that I have. It seemed like this Board

16 ought to have the opportunity all to vote on

17 all materials up for Sunset, up or down, as

18 opposed to they might or might not.

19 The other issue I have is that in

20 the livestock committee I have about seven

21 materials that I'm looking at. We look at new

22 information. Some of the materials I'm
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1 looking at do not even have a TR. Some do not

2 even have had a TR in 1999.

3 When you're dealing with science,

4 new information, a TR that has been done in

5 1999, that's 15 years, that's a long time.

6 And if the program do not have enough funds to

7 get new TRs for these, I think the one I have

8 I think 60 percent have not had a TR since

9 1999. So how do I, as a Board member, if the

10 funds are not there, to actually get new TR to

11 see if there's new information to keep in or

12 vote out?

13 DR. BRINES: Yeah, I can answer

14 that for you, Calvin. I think those materials

15 you're referring to might be part of the 2017

16 Sunset review of which there are over 200

17 materials. Many of those materials were added

18 to the National List as part of the

19 regulations going into had technical advisory

20 panel reviews that were effect.

21 So they might have conducted in

22 1995 or 1996, but may not have a lot of new
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1 information, technical information that's

2 available.

3 We do have some resources to

4 devote for technical reports for each Sunset

5 year. It can help the program in terms of

6 reviewing those requests, that the

7 subcommittees can look at those materials and

8 really prioritize which ones are most

9 important. I think most of the more

10 controversial materials generally have updated

11 technical information.

12 The ones that don't are often

13 materials that have a long history of use in

14 organic, even before the NOP regulations went

15 into effect. There might be new information,

16 but we probably won't be able to do 200 new

17 technical reports. You don't have the time to

18 review them and neither do I. So prioritizing

19 where the real needs are can be helpful for

20 us. Thanks.

21 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

22 MEMBER AUSTIN: On the handling
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1 committee we're dealing with some of these

2 issues right now, and I think a good example

3 is because of the lack of adequate funds to be

4 able to take and request a TR on virtually

5 every item, I mean in the 2017 we're going to

6 have a 105 materials for the handling

7 committee along. So we've got a quite

8 extensive list.

9 Part of the new process, they do a

10 listing for the Sunset materials. I think

11 this first one -- and we've done that on our

12 2015 materials, is that it affords the

13 subcommittee the opportunity to reach out to

14 the original petitioner, to the stakeholders,

15 to the certifiers, and come up with specific

16 questions to help offset some of the requests

17 or the lack of requests for the TR.

18 So it gives the community an

19 opportunity, the stakeholders irregardless an

20 opportunity to comment to that and bring to

21 light any new changes to that substance to the

22 subcommittee. So that as we go through our
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1 deliberation, headed to the second meeting, if

2 there's anything that's come up, we can

3 address it then, and we could then initiate a

4 motion to delist at that time, depending on

5 what's been brought to us.

6 CHAIR STONE: Thanks. Calvin, you

7 want to wrap this up for us?

8 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes. Could the

9 program share with me -- because I know I have

10 been asked, and will be asked again, if I'm a

11 petitioner and I'm petitioning for methionine,

12 if I'm the petitioner, if I bring this forward

13 for it to be added to the National List, where

14 is my role in making the case to remove it?

15 CHAIR STONE: Go ahead, Lisa.

16 DR. BRINES: Yeah, if I understand

17 your question, Calvin. So we only accept

18 petitions for generic materials. So once the

19 generic materials added to the list, any

20 manufacturer or user of that material can use

21 the generic form.

22 Often we get petitions from the
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1 manufacturers of specific materials. They may

2 want to defend the material during the Sunset

3 review, but really once it's added to the

4 regulations it's a public -- it's open to

5 anyone. So I don't know that then that

6 manufacturer specifically needs to be engaged.

7 CHAIR STONE: I would suggest,

8 Calvin, that that's what Harold's saying, is

9 the subcommittee reaches to all of the

10 interested parties in more of an open

11 education process about these materials versus

12 the subcommittee going into deliberations on

13 their own and seeing -- hopefully we did good

14 before we make a proposal to the full Board.

15 So it does involve just a lot of interaction

16 with the community, which is our

17 responsibility on each of these materials.

18 Okay. Thank you very much. I'm

19 sure we'll have some bits and pieces of this

20 in addition as we go through the next couple

21 of days. I have 12:40, let's return back at

22 1:45. That gives us a little over an hour to
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1 get out and find lunch and get back. Thank

2 you very much.

3 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

4 matter went off the record at 12:40 p.m. and

5 resumed at 1:49 p.m.)

6 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

7 (1:49 p.m.)

8 CHAIR STONE: If I could have the

9 Board members take their seats, we're going to

10 go ahead and get started.

11 (Pause.)

12 CHAIR STONE: We've got a little

13 bit more of a report from NOP, we're going to

14 get Mr. Mark Lipson up here, then we're going

15 to get into public comment, oral comments if

16 you will. Yeah, and Sarah with NRCS. I'm

17 sorry, Sarah. I didn't -- wasn't slighting

18 you. You are part of USDA.

19 So we're -- your agenda shows

20 there's an hour of time for overarching or

21 underpinning, I don't remember the exact word

22 -- overarching ideas and undercurrents in
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1 organics.

2 I think we felt some undercurrents

3 earlier this morning, and we're going to let

4 that be that time, and we're going -- because

5 we don't want to get in -- to limit the oral

6 comment time. So that's a conversation that

7 we maybe can have bits of pieces of throughout

8 the agenda, but not take an hour long block of

9 time just for that.

10 So with that being said, we'll

11 turn it over to Miles to pick up the NOP

12 report that we didn't get to before lunch.

13 Miles?

14 MR. McEVOY: Okay. Welcome back.

15 This is the normal part of the process where

16 I talk about a lot of things happening at the

17 National Organic Program, so we've been busy,

18 there's a lot of things going on, a lot of

19 things to report on, things that we've

20 accomplished and what our plans are for the

21 immediate future.

22 I guess I have control, so I can
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1 do this. Okay. So just as a reminder of the

2 National Organic Program, our mission, our

3 vision, our mission is to ensure the integrity

4 of USDA organic products in the United States

5 and throughout the world.

6 The USDA Organic logo is

7 recognized throughout the world as the gold

8 standard in many, many different countries of

9 the integrity of the process, the rigor of our

10 process.

11 It is very much seen that way in

12 many of the international meetings that we go

13 to. So it's not just about protecting

14 integrity here, but it's also protecting

15 integrity of the products being shipped

16 overseas and products that come into the US

17 bearing the USDA Organic logo.

18 Our vision, organic integrity from

19 farm to table. Consumers trust the organic

20 label. Had some discussions about trust here

21 this morning. It's very, very important to

22 make sure that we maintain that integrity,
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1 that the standards are being upheld through

2 the certification and accreditation process.

3 And our core role is to implement the Organic

4 Foods Production Act and the USDA organic

5 regulations.

6 So I know a lot of you know what

7 the program does, but there might be things

8 that we do that you don't know that we do.

9 And here are the key activities of what the

10 program does.

11 We develop and maintain organic

12 standards, and that's where the National

13 Organic Standards Board is such a critical

14 role in terms of the public input that we get,

15 the advice and the recommendations that we get

16 from the Board are critical in that process of

17 developing and maintaining the organic

18 standards.

19 We accredit and oversee the

20 third-party organic certifying agents, and

21 they're the ones who do the review and

22 inspection and approving organic producers and
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1 handlers to be in the organic marketplace. So

2 our oversight of them to ensure that they're

3 doing their jobs properly is very critical.

4 We implement international organic

5 trade agreements. We also have an enforcement

6 role. We investigate complaints of

7 violations, for example uncertified farmers

8 selling food as organic, or selling

9 conventional food as organic. And of course

10 we support the work of the National Organic

11 Standards Board.

12 Just some facts and figures.

13 There's 84 accredited certifying agents that

14 are operating worldwide, there's over 25,000

15 certified organic operations, and around $35

16 billion in US organic sales.

17 The one thing that's interesting

18 to think about in terms of the 25,000

19 certified organic operations is that a number

20 of those are grower groups, especially --

21 well, outside the US. And within those grower

22 groups there are about a half a million small
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1 holders, or small farmers that participate in

2 those growers groups and are participating

3 under the USDA National Organic Program.

4 A few quick facts about the NOP.

5 Thirty-four employees in three divisions and

6 growing. We're in the process of hiring about

7 10 new staff, so we'll have significantly more

8 people working in the program a year from now.

9 Our budget was around $7 million

10 in 2012. With sequestration it went down to

11 6.369 in 13, and then we had a sizable

12 increase for 14. This money was provided in

13 January, but it takes a long time to get that

14 money actually to the program and get that

15 money implemented.

16 So that's -- it's a lot of work

17 actually to all of a sudden figure out --

18 well, it's not all of a sudden -- we had a

19 plan of how to utilize that money, but it's a

20 lot of work to hire the staff and get the work

21 done to utilize that money the best.

22 We are a regulatory program within
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1 the Agricultural Marketing Service. So that's

2 our job is to regulate the organic label, the

3 organic trade, and that's what we do.

4 So, we oversee the work of 84

5 certifiers, certified over 25,000 operations,

6 that work of accreditation includes audits,

7 audit report reviews, we do notices of

8 non-compliance to certifying agents, we have

9 to do corrective action reviews of the

10 corrective actions that they do to correct

11 their findings, we respond to their questions,

12 we update the list of certified operations.

13 And just some other facts and

14 figures. As of the close of fiscal year 2013,

15 certifiers were in full compliance with 95

16 percent of the accreditation criteria, and

17 have implemented corrective actions for all

18 the deficiencies that we found, all the

19 findings.

20 So what we do to a certifier is

21 very similar to what happens with a certified

22 operation, is that they are inspected, or
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1 audited. Those audits usually are about a

2 week long, depending upon the size and scope

3 of the certifier, and as with the certified

4 operation, there's always things that you

5 find.

6 Most of things are relatively

7 minor, they don't have all their conflict of

8 interest reports up-to-date, that they have

9 been, but they're not up-to-date for all their

10 employees, they have some missing training

11 records. For foreign certifiers, one of the

12 common things we'd found is that they didn't

13 follow the adverse action procedures exactly

14 as per the regulations. So those are the

15 kinds of findings.

16 It's part of the process that you

17 do have findings when you do audits and that's

18 -- then we make sure that those certifiers are

19 making the corrective actions to come back

20 into full compliance with all the

21 requirements.

22 So key accreditation activities
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1 for last year. There were 25 accreditation

2 renewals audits, five accreditation mid-term

3 audits, one initial accreditation audit, 63

4 reinstatements of certification, nine

5 temporary variances, we denied two temporary

6 variances, we issued four expert

7 authorizations, we supported training, policy

8 development and outreach activities, we

9 launched Sound and Sensible Initiative, and

10 we'll talk more about that later.

11 So, many different things that the

12 Accreditation Division of the National Organic

13 Program is doing. They have a - limited

14 staff who work very closely with the

15 Agricultural Marketing Service Quality

16 Assurance Division to do the audits of

17 certifiers, but there's a lot of work that's

18 involved in that.

19 In terms of international trade,

20 we have trade arrangements with several

21 countries to facilitate the exchange of

22 organic products and provide market
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1 opportunities for organic producers and

2 handlers in the US. We have three equivalency

3 arrangements currently.

4 Now an equivalency arrangement is

5 where we accept the foreign country's program

6 in total, we accept their standards as

7 equivalent. It doesn't mean identical, it

8 means that it's equivalent. We accept their

9 accreditation system, we accept their

10 compliance process, how they enforce the

11 organic label in those countries.

12 So we have three of those

13 equivalency arrangements: with Canada, which

14 was the first one in June of 2009; and then

15 2012 an equivalency arrangement with the

16 European Union and the 27 member states, so 27

17 countries involved under the European Union;

18 and then Japan just most recently, became

19 effective on January of this year.

20 And we're having discussions with

21 other countries, in particular South Korea and

22 Switzerland. Many countries are interested in
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1 equivalency arrangements with the US, so

2 that'll be a continuing focus of the program

3 is to work with these foreign countries on

4 potential equivalency arrangements.

5 Recognition agreements are

6 distinct in that they are where the -- what

7 we're accepting is the foreign country's

8 accreditation system. So we're not accepting

9 their standards, they still have to certify

10 products in those countries to the US

11 standards, but we are accepting the

12 accreditation program, the government

13 accreditation program. We have now three

14 recognition agreements, with India, Israel and

15 New Zealand.

16 All of these agreements require

17 both negotiations and ongoing discussions

18 through organic working groups, and ongoing

19 peer assessments, peer reviews where we're

20 sending teams to those countries to make sure

21 that they're meeting the terms of the

22 requirements. And they do the same, they send
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1 teams to the US.

2 So we work very closely with

3 USDA's Foreign Agricultural Service and the

4 Office of the US Trade Representative on all

5 this work on international trade and

6 activities.

7 So just briefly, in terms of

8 imports there are three ways that products can

9 get into the US organic market. It can be

10 certified by a certifier that's directly

11 accredited by USDA National Organic Program,

12 or they can be certified to the USDA organic

13 regulations by a certifier that is accredited

14 by a foreign government that's recognized by

15 USDA. That's Israel, India and New Zealand.

16 And finally, it can be certified

17 to an equivalent organic standard by an

18 authorized control body. So for instance in

19 Canada, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency

20 does the accreditation of the certifiers that

21 operate in Canada. Those certifiers are

22 certifying to the Canadian standard.
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1 We deem the Canadian standard

2 equivalent to the US standard with a couple of

3 critical variances. One is that they -- any

4 livestock product coming into the US can't be

5 produced with the use of antibiotics, and then

6 for products going from the US into Canada

7 there are stocking rate requirements for

8 poultry and non-ruminant livestock, and

9 prohibition on hydroponics and aeroponics and

10 sodium nitrate. Almost lost that last one

11 there.

12 Okay. And then so we have to --

13 we're responsible to make sure that all

14 products sold in the US meet the US

15 requirements, but we're also interested in

16 supporting markets for US producers and

17 handlers. There's a lot of interest in

18 organics in many foreign countries. There's

19 a lot of foreign countries that organic sales

20 are increasing rapidly. China, for instance,

21 has a growing organic market.

22 So, for the countries that we have
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1 an equivalency arrangement, the NOP

2 certification is equivalent and it's

3 relatively easy to get your products into

4 those countries, that's the EU, Canada and

5 Japan. For Taiwan, we have an export

6 arrangement, so NOP certification is accepted

7 there.

8 There are many countries that have

9 no mandatory labeling requirements, so it's

10 sort of an unregulated marketplace. So Mexico

11 is like that, though they're in the process of

12 implementing some regulations there. And

13 Australia has a mandatory regulation for

14 exports, but not for domestic. So in those

15 countries, US organic certification works for

16 sales.

17 And then there's other countries

18 that have their own mandatory requirements,

19 that have their own standard. For instance

20 China, South Korea now, they've just

21 implemented mandatory requirements as of

22 January of 2014 in Brazil. And so for those
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1 countries, if you want to ship to those

2 countries, you have to be certified to that

3 country's standard by a certifier that's

4 accredited under that country's standard. So

5 it gets a lot more complicated. So that's

6 just a quick overview of export issues.

7 So key priorities for the

8 Accreditation and International Activities

9 Division, of course publishing the updated

10 list of certified operations, that's a thing

11 that we do on a yearly basis.

12 We're very excited about the money

13 that we've gotten in the Farm Bill for

14 information technology upgrades. So - in the

15 future, we'll have a real time database of

16 certified operations. But the current time

17 is, is that we have to do this on an annual

18 basis, and there's a fair amount of work

19 involved in doing that.

20 We do certifier training every

21 year, which we want to expand on that. So the

22 last one was in February. We train our
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1 auditors to make sure they're up to speed with

2 any changes to the requirements and they're on

3 the same page as they do their audits of

4 certifiers.

5 We did our first Latin American

6 certifier training in March. Had nine or ten

7 Latin American countries that participated.

8 They are very, very excited about the

9 opportunities in organic agriculture in their

10 countries and how they can support the organic

11 integrity and understand the organic system in

12 Latin America. So we hope to continue to

13 provide training to -- in Latin America in

14 particular, but other countries potentially as

15 well.

16 We're currently under a peer

17 review by the American -- by ANSI, I always

18 forget what the acronym stands for, but it's

19 the -- Lynn, you know -- American National

20 Standards Institute. American National

21 Standards Institute. Okay. That seems kind

22 of redundant, American National.
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1 Okay. American National Standards

2 Institute. They're currently doing a peer

3 review, so they're evaluating the program

4 under ISO 17011 in our requirements, and so

5 once that review is complete, we'll be

6 publishing that peer review report for

7 everyone to take a look at.

8 Lots of accreditation audits.

9 This is a heavy accreditation audit year for

10 certifiers, and then maintaining our existing

11 recognition and equivalency arrangements,

12 conducting our peer reviews and working

13 groups.

14 Moving on to the Compliance and

15 Enforcement Division, their key activities are

16 to investigate complaints, work with

17 operations to achieve compliance where

18 possible and take enforcement actions as

19 appropriate. They represent the National

20 Organic Program in appeals of adverse actions.

21 They work with certifiers and

22 state programs and federal partners on
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1 enforcement of the statute and the

2 regulations, so there's a lot of work,

3 collaborative work that they do with

4 certifiers to do the investigations of

5 complaints. And if it gets to be, for

6 instance, more serious violations, we work

7 with our federal partners and the Department

8 of Justice at times on criminal

9 investigations.

10 They're our lead

11 enforcement-related policy development

12 division, and they also are doing some

13 outreach efforts.

14 So the purposes of enforcement is

15 to protect the integrity of the organic

16 standards so as to facilitate commerce,

17 maintaining consumer confidence, and ensuring

18 a fair market for the great majority of

19 operations that operate in compliance with the

20 law. So our experience shows that the vast

21 majority of operations are in compliance with

22 the requirements.
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1 There's always findings when you

2 do an audit, when you do an inspection, but

3 they tend to be relatively minor things that

4 can be corrected. We do find some significant

5 violations at times, and then we want to do

6 very stringent enforcement and have strict

7 penalties for those bad actors. But the great

8 majority of organic operations are operating

9 in compliance with the requirements.

10 So in terms of 2013, the

11 Compliance and Enforcement Division issued 18

12 civil penalties totaling $78,500 for willful

13 violations of the regulations. They closed

14 260 complaints. They had continuous

15 improvement on case handling and they reduced

16 the overall backlog of complaints.

17 We still have a backlog of

18 complaints, but we're making some progress

19 there. And they'd worked with the Office of

20 Inspector General and the Department of

21 Justice on some high profile enforcement

22 cases.
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1 We've had a lot of improvement in

2 terms of handling of appeals. A few years

3 ago, 2011, the average days to close an appeal

4 was 344 days, so basically a year. So that's

5 the average time, was a year. So some appeals

6 were going on for two years, a very long

7 period of time.

8 And remember, if you appeal an

9 adverse action, the operation continues to be

10 certified, continues to be able to sell

11 products as organic during that appeals

12 process.

13 So we brought that down from 2011

14 to -- over the last six months down to 148

15 days, so we've cut that in half for the

16 average amount. And it looks like for all of

17 the appeals that we're getting, that we'll be

18 able to close the vast majority of those

19 within 180 days in 2014, which means that

20 there will be others that are being closed in

21 like 90 days. So a lot of improvement -- of

22 process improvements in the way that we handle
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1 appeals.

2 One of the things that we're doing

3 is we're using settlement agreements in many

4 cases to more rapidly close the appeal, ensure

5 compliance with the regulations, either get

6 those companies back in compliance, or get

7 them out of the organic marketplace.

8 Complete distribution. Over half

9 of the complaints we get are about uncertified

10 operations, about a third on labeling

11 violations and fraud, and prohibited

12 substances -- allegations of prohibited

13 substances and methods about -- it looks like

14 about a sixth or a fifth of the complaints

15 that we receive.

16 Priorities for warrants and

17 enforcement. Complaint investigations and

18 closures remain their highest priority,

19 reducing the backlog and their time to case

20 closure. Some things can be closed relatively

21 quickly, but some things that are complicated

22 take a significant amount of investigative
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1 work to bring to closure.

2 Working closely with the Office of

3 General Counsel to pursue complaints for

4 hearing against violators. So after there's

5 an administrative decision, the next step in

6 the process is to file a complaint and go to

7 an administrative hearing.

8 Contribute to policy and training

9 development related to enforcement, and then

10 also implement the Farm Bill provisions

11 related to enforcement. Within the Farm Bill,

12 there are enhanced enforcement authorities

13 that the National Organic Program now has.

14 We have the authority to issue

15 subpoenas, so we're making sure that our

16 compliance staff are trained and able to use

17 subpoenas when we need to do that in the

18 course of our investigative and enforcement

19 work.

20 A little bit about residue

21 testing. One of the most significant

22 compliance-related issues that we've rolled
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1 out over the last few years is residue testing

2 for certifiers. That was a new requirement

3 that they do 5 percent of their operations on

4 a yearly basis starting in 2013.

5 So this was a cross-divisional

6 effort that we worked with other AMS programs

7 to develop this residue testing requirements.

8 We set the residue testing standard through

9 proposed and final rule making. We've

10 provided instructions and training to

11 certifiers and will continue to provide more

12 of that in the future.

13 We've assessed certifiers'

14 compliance with these new rules during our

15 accreditation audits. This is really the

16 first year that we'll start to do that to

17 ensure that they're doing 5 percent of the

18 operations in 2013 and that they've taken

19 appropriate follow-up action when they find

20 residues in the course of their work.

21 We've collaborated with the

22 Agricultural Marketing Service's Science and
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1 Technology Program on sampling, on the residue

2 screens that they conduct and on residue

3 testing. And they've provided a lot of

4 service in support to the certifiers to

5 implement the residue testing requirements.

6 And we've also conducted enforcement actions

7 based on residue sample results that have come

8 in as a basis of this residue testing.

9 So as I said, since 2013,

10 certifiers are conducting this residue

11 testing. There's some basic requirements that

12 the certifiers have to do. They have to

13 notify the applicant or the certified

14 operation of any test results when they do

15 residue analysis, they have to maintain

16 records of the analysis, and they must provide

17 results to the public upon request.

18 They must maintain sample

19 collection information and sample results for

20 review during the NOP accreditation audits.

21 And then when residues are found, they have to

22 investigate why are those residues present,
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1 and take appropriate enforcement action.

2 So I'm just going to provide an

3 example of this in terms of how -- this is

4 very brief, but how certifiers have been given

5 instructions and guidance on how to respond to

6 detected residues, whether it's a prohibited

7 pesticide, antibiotic, hormone or the GMOs.

8 So they have to investigate -- when they find

9 positive residues they have to investigate to

10 determine the source of the residues and take

11 appropriate action.

12 And there's basically two things

13 that they need to determine: whether or not

14 there was the use of a prohibited substance or

15 method, or inadequate measures to prevent

16 contamination or commingling. So there's a

17 very distinct difference in terms of the

18 compliance and enforcement action that a

19 certifier will take based on determining what

20 has happened.

21 So you get these residue results

22 and you need to analyze them. Where was it
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1 collected, why is it there, what is the

2 compound, how much is there. And by looking

3 at those things you can -- it tells you a

4 story, it gives you information.

5 And then the certifiers that --

6 working with us as necessary, can make this

7 determination. Is it the use of the

8 prohibited substance or is it because of

9 inadequate buffers or inadequate procedures to

10 prevent commingling.

11 And if it's the use of the

12 prohibited substance or method that's

13 knowingly and willful, then that would be a

14 proposed revocation, that would be the

15 outcome. If it was an error, then it would be

16 a proposed suspension. So sometimes a

17 prohibited substance may be used by a mistake

18 rather than a willful violation, and that

19 would be a reason to go for a proposed

20 suspension rather than proposed revocation.

21 If it's inadequate measures, then

22 the appropriate approach is a notice of
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1 non-compliance, to require corrective actions,

2 to put in place better buffer zones, better

3 procedures to prevent commingling or

4 contamination during handling. So those are

5 the basic concepts that we have presented to

6 certifiers in terms of responding to positive

7 results.

8 So an example is on GMO residues.

9 There's been questions of whether or not

10 organic products are sampled for GMO residues.

11 So as you know, the USDA organic regulations

12 prohibit the use of genetically modified

13 organisms. They prohibit commingling or

14 contamination during processing and handling,

15 and they require preventative practices to

16 avoid contact with GMOs.

17 Organic agricultural products

18 should have minimal, if any, GMO presence

19 because of the process that is in place.

20 There is no tolerance level that's been

21 established for the presence of GMO material,

22 but there's still actions that certifiers must
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1 take if GMOs are found in the course of their

2 responsibilities of residue testing and

3 analysis.

4 So if, during the course of their

5 work, they find GMO residues, then they have

6 to do an investigation, why are those GMO

7 residues there. If the investigation

8 determines that the residues were there

9 because there was the use of excluded methods,

10 then the certifier would take adverse actions

11 to suspend or revoke the operation.

12 If the certifier determines that

13 the residue levels are due to inadequate

14 measures to avoid contact, then -- with

15 excluded methods from adjoining land use or

16 commingling, inadequate measures for handling,

17 then the certifier issues a notice of

18 non-compliance and there's corrective actions

19 that are implemented to improve the integrity

20 of the whole system.

21 So that's just a brief overview of

22 how we've provided guidance and training to
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1 certifiers of how they handle prohibited

2 substances, including the use of GMO products.

3 Okay. So summary on periodic

4 residue testing. Test results provide a copy

5 to the operator and make it available to the

6 public upon request. Investigate the positive

7 results to determine the source, and then take

8 appropriate action when you find residues,

9 adverse action, notification of authorities as

10 necessary.

11 So just wanted to cover this

12 because there's sometimes a lot of questions

13 or misconceptions about the role of residue

14 testing, and especially around residue testing

15 and GMOs.

16 Okay. Now moving to the Standards

17 Division. Melissa Bailey is the Director of

18 the Standards Division. Key activities of the

19 Standards Division is to develop new rules and

20 coordinate the clearance of those through that

21 long process; develop and maintain the

22 regulatory priorities agenda; draft new and
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1 updated guidance and policy memos based on the

2 recommendations from this Board.

3 But also from the Office of

4 Inspector General findings, we have to address

5 that. Some of the actions we take are based

6 on the Office of Inspector General findings

7 about the program.

8 We also take actions based on

9 questions from certifiers and from the

10 community at large and other priority needs.

11 We develop materials to support the roll out

12 of new standards, respond to letters and

13 questions about standards.

14 The division is responsible for

15 maintaining the National List, including the

16 petition intake process and response, and the

17 list management activities. And this is the

18 division that does most of the support work

19 for the National Organic Standards Board.

20 So there are successes for last

21 year. They led, managed, maintained and

22 communicated progress for approximately 20
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1 Standards projects, including regulatory work

2 plans, rules and communication materials.

3 They completed three final rules,

4 three proposed rules, two draft guidance

5 documents and five final guidance documents.

6 So lots of work coming out of this division.

7 They've developed a regulatory

8 priority plan to ensure NOP's priorities are

9 reflected in USDA's regulatory agenda, and

10 this morning, Melissa showed you how to get

11 access to that regulatory agenda to see what

12 those priorities are. They developed the

13 revised Sunset process to improve the

14 efficient use of USDA resources and ensure

15 stability for organic markets.

16 So our priorities for 2014, we

17 have three things currently in clearance, and

18 the clearance process is long, so don't expect

19 these to come out any day now. It's still

20 weeks, months away before publication. But

21 the origin of livestock is in clearance, the

22 proposed rule; aquaculture is in clearance,
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1 the proposed rule; and the pet food is in

2 clearance, the proposed rule.

3 Other rules that are in progress

4 include sodium nitrate, nutrient vitamins and

5 minerals, animal welfare, aquaculture,

6 mushrooms and the National List rule on

7 biodegradable mulch. So it's -- there's a lot

8 of stuff.

9 This Board has been busy, there's

10 still a lot of things for us to do, and

11 everybody will see their favorite project on

12 the list and say, "When is it going to come

13 out?" But that's our list.

14 We actually have I think, what,

15 over 50 projects on our what we call our

16 quality management list of things that are

17 either rule making dockets, instructions,

18 guidance or policy memos. And that's split up

19 into A, B and C, and I think everything on

20 that other rules in progress is in the A

21 category. So these are the highlights of that

22 long list of things that we're working on.
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1 Other priorities, draft guidance

2 and post-harvest handling. That was just

3 published on Friday. Biodiversity and natural

4 resource conservation, we're getting close to

5 a draft guidance on biodiversity I believe.

6 Final guidance made with organic specified

7 ingredients of food groups. That's coming out

8 this week.

9 Classification of materials is

10 coming out soon -- well, soon, next few

11 months. Materials for organic crop

12 production, that should be out next few

13 months.

14 These guys are like scowling at me

15 now because -- but next few months is pretty

16 safe. Right?

17 Okay. Other projects. Material

18 clarifications for certifiers, we have a new

19 process to clarify substances that are in that

20 gray area where there's a disagreement between

21 certifiers of whether a substance is allowed

22 or not, so we'll be putting out additional
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1 material clarifications for certifiers.

2 National List management, including technical

3 report contract management and providing

4 support for the NOSB committees.

5 Okay. Now I'm going to jump to

6 Sound and Sensible, how to maintain organic

7 integrity in a sound and sensible manner. One

8 of the things that we did that we are required

9 to do every three years is to assess the

10 paperwork burden of the USDA organic

11 regulations.

12 So last year we did an information

13 collection, which is that process that was

14 completed in December 2013, so we put out a

15 Federal Register notice, asked for comments

16 about the paperwork burden and got lots of

17 interesting comments, many interesting

18 comments. And those are all available on

19 regulations.gov. Right?

20 So I just wanted to highlight a

21 few of the comments that I thought were very

22 interesting. We all had the opportunity to
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1 find our favorite comments. So these were

2 some of my favorite comments. One was that,

3 "The format used by my certification

4 agency is burdensome in order to meet the NOP

5 standards, and it takes hours to wade through

6 it and by-pass the irrelevant portions. My

7 main time-consuming activity that's beyond

8 reasonable is the research to determine what

9 materials are compliant and used in what

10 fashion.

11 "Trying to find, for example, if copper

12 azole surface treatment, not pressure

13 treatment, of wood for fence posts is

14 prohibited or permitted, and if prohibited, at

15 what distance from the nearest tree that

16 produces a certified organic fruit, and how is

17 that distance measured."

18 So lots of questions about the

19 details of the standards that make it very

20 challenging for operators. Another comment,

21 "We have been completely organic since

22 1999, certified since 2003, and have not
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1 substantially changed our operation in that

2 time, with the exception of adding eight more

3 acres of production. Every year the

4 regulations are tightened a little more, and

5 more things are scrutinized, and the paperwork

6 burden grows and grows even though we have

7 always passed recertification inspection, and

8 good reports since being certified 10 years

9 ago.

10 "Wouldn't it be better to get more farms

11 certified and for the government agency to

12 spend its tax dollars on promoting organic

13 products so that farmers could get higher

14 prices for the higher costs of organic

15 farming, instead of creating an onerous

16 time-wasting paperwork burden?"

17 And the last of my favorite

18 comments,

19 "Indirect cross-certification. As an

20 organic handler/processor with sales of

21 organic product less than 200 metric tons and

22 revenue of less than $750,000, I would
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1 estimate our annual time requirements based

2 upon activity as followed: maintaining

3 organic handling production sales records,

4 about 200 hours."

5 What's that, five weeks?

6 "Preparation, follow-up and

7 participation in the annual inspection"

8 That's only 20 hours.

9 "Maintaining knowledge of organic

10 regulations, training and et cetera, 40

11 hours."

12 So a significant time investment

13 that people invest in understanding and

14 keeping the records and complying with the

15 requirements.

16 So, those are some of the reasons

17 why I get excited about this, the Sound and

18 Sensible concept, the Sound and Sensible

19 Initiative to try to make certification both

20 high integrity but reasonable and practical.

21 So, some of the issues that we

22 need to address. Inconsistent certification
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1 process. We've identified that during some of

2 our audits. We continue to provide training

3 to certifiers to try to get more consistency

4 in the certification process, the focus and

5 burden of record keeping, the expense of

6 certification, the burden of time that's

7 involved in inspections and maintaining

8 paperwork.

9 It's really the indirect costs

10 that I think that are really more burdensome

11 than the direct costs. And we all know that

12 there are many farms that comply with the

13 basic organic standards in terms of the

14 production practices, but they avoid

15 certification. They don't need it for their

16 market, or they just don't want to go through

17 the hassle.

18 So that's why we've started the

19 Sound and Sensible Initiative. Three key

20 concepts: affordable, accessible and

21 attainable. Affordable meaning reasonable

22 fees, reasonable compliance costs.
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1 Accessible, that there are certifiers and

2 technical assistance that's available in all

3 local areas all across the country. And

4 attainable, that people understand what the

5 requirements are, plain language, and

6 reasonable record keeping requirements.

7 So great concepts, it's just how

8 do we actually implement that? So we've done

9 a few things. We've issued technical

10 assistance instructions about a year ago for

11 certifiers and inspectors that they are

12 responsible to provide technical assistance to

13 the certified operations.

14 We've clarified some of the

15 requirements around organic system plans that

16 came out in the fall showing that there's

17 multiple ways to comply, and we feel that

18 we've streamlined the certification process,

19 and then we're also been really pushing the

20 concept of mediation and settlement agreements

21 to support continuous improvement and timely

22 compliance with the requirements.
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1 So just as a summary,

2 certification must be sound, objective and

3 complete evaluation of compliance, verify and

4 enforce compliance, take action on

5 non-compliances. So we will insist on this.

6 It has to be sound, we have to

7 make sure that certifiers don't just go on the

8 sensible side of things, but make sure that

9 integrity is maintained throughout the whole

10 chain of -- from farm to market, and -- but

11 also should be sensible and reasonable records

12 that verify compliance, educating farmers and

13 handlers on the requirements so that they can

14 be successful.

15 So for 2014, our focus, in terms

16 of the soundness of it, is increased focus on

17 non-certified operation, no organic claims

18 unless you were exempt or excluded from

19 certification, so we have a number of both

20 enforcement actions and educational efforts

21 going on in that regard.

22 And that it should be sensible,
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1 developing affordable, accessible and

2 attainable certification programs for

3 underserved areas. And I'll get to that in a

4 moment. And that's this. So there -- with

5 some of the new resources that we have this

6 year, we're going to be issuing a multi-award

7 contract opportunity, so we've set aside some

8 of the money in our fiscal 2014 funds to

9 support projects that develop sound and

10 sensible organic certification models,

11 training and outreach.

12 There's a draft performance work

13 statement online at fedbizops.gov, so any

14 certifiers in the room or people that are

15 interested in providing training or technical

16 assistance should check this out. We

17 encourage certifiers and other organizations

18 to form teams to respond to the final

19 solicitation once that's posted. We hope to

20 get that posted within the next few weeks.

21 And to help you, if you're

22 interested in this kind of thing, you can sign
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1 up as an interested vendor at this particular

2 link below. We'll get this posted on our

3 website so I don't have to read all that long

4 listing there. This will also be announced in

5 the Organic Insider.

6 So opportunities for certifiers

7 and others to develop more sound and sensible

8 systems, because we all know that there has

9 been some burdens that have been put on the

10 organic community that don't add value, that

11 don't -- that aren't really necessary to

12 protect organic integrity. Let's try to

13 develop a better system so that we can support

14 organic farmers and handlers and their success

15 in the organic marketplace.

16 Okay. Get the right thing here.

17 Okay. On to the Farm Bill, and Mark Lipson

18 will be covering this in more detail.

19 But in general there's a lot of

20 different organic provisions in the Farm Bill.

21 $100 million for organic research, extension

22 and education. $5 million for the organic
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1 data initiatives. This is primarily money

2 that's going to be used by the Economic

3 Research Service and the National Agricultural

4 Statistics Service, a little bit by Market

5 News to improve the data around organic

6 agriculture and the organic industry.

7 $5 million -- no, let's see --

8 expanded option for organic crop insurance,

9 expanded exemptions for organic producers who

10 are putting into commodity check off programs.

11 The Farm Bill also authorizes USDA to consider

12 an application from the organic sector to

13 establish its own check off program. So

14 that's authorized in the Farm Bill. Whether

15 or not it happens or not is -- we'll see.

16 Improved enforcement authority for

17 the NOP to conduct investigations, and $5

18 million for a technology upgrade for the

19 National Organic Program, and $11-1/2 million

20 annually for certification cost-share

21 assistance.

22 In terms of the NOP information
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1 technology improvements, we do have a report

2 on this that we published in March of 2013.

3 It describes the primary needs that we have

4 around the technology upgrade.

5 So if you're interested in the IT

6 area, the data of organics, I'd really

7 encourage you to take a look at that report.

8 It kind of spells out some of our initial

9 ideas and plans for this technology upgrade.

10 Some of the things we're looking

11 at is a registry of exempt and excluded

12 operations to include as a part of the overall

13 project an ability to issue USDA certificates

14 and export certificates, for example to

15 European countries; a real time list of

16 certified organic products; importance for

17 certified operations and for the public and

18 for certifiers and state organic programs to

19 interface with the - this overarching

20 database.

21 Okay. So that's a quick run

22 through, some of the things that we're working
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1 on at the National Organic Program. So any

2 questions from the Board?

3 CHAIR STONE: John?

4 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: So there's a

5 quite a reduction in the number of accredited

6 certifiers since NOP started. I think it was

7 102 or something back in 2002 and it's 84 now.

8 So I'm wondering if there's a -- what the --

9 where the reductions are happening, either

10 national or international. And why some folks

11 -- why almost 20 certifiers have gotten out of

12 the pool.

13 MR. McEVOY: Sure. Yeah, I don't

14 think it was 100 in 2002, but just a few years

15 ago there was about 100 accredited certifiers.

16 There's been a number that have dropped out

17 because of the equivalency arrangements.

18 So the -- we used to accredit

19 certifiers in Canada, and none of them need to

20 be -- if they're only operating in Canada,

21 they no longer need to be accredited under the

22 NOP. A number of the European certifiers have
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1 dropped out as well. There have been some US

2 certifiers, some smaller certifiers in the US

3 that have dropped out of accreditation as

4 well.

5 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: On the US

6 certifiers that have dropped out, what's been

7 their rationale, or their need or lack of

8 resources or whatever it was?

9 MR. McEVOY: Yeah, there's been

10 different reasons for different certifiers to

11 drop their accreditation. That for some of

12 them, as we started to do more rigorous audits

13 and oversight of how they operated, they were

14 unable to meet the accreditation requirements,

15 and rather than going through adverse action

16 procedures, they decided to get out of the

17 business.

18 CHAIR STONE: Calvin?

19 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes, I don't

20 know if everyone was asleep, but I think we

21 should give the NOP a round of applause, and

22 to Secretary Vilsack for giving the organic
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1 program some additional funding.

2 (General applause.)

3 SECRETARY WALKER: My comment, and

4 I have a question, an explanation, the --

5 Wendy is probably familiar with it, because

6 when the pork industry years ago was having

7 issues with research and those things, there

8 was nine groups -- nine individuals out of

9 Illinois, they started what they call the

10 Moline 9 that ultimately gave rise to the

11 National Pork Producers Council.

12 And it's probably one of the

13 strongest commodity groups that we have. And

14 I was particularly glad to hear that we have

15 a check off. Could you elaborate? You had

16 mentioned about appropriation for that. But

17 I think it's very good for all the industry.

18 MR. McEVOY: Okay. So there's no

19 appropriation for the check off. The Farm

20 Bill authorizes further exemptions for organic

21 producers to not have to pay into existing

22 commodity programs, commodity check off
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1 programs. So that is already started. It has

2 to go through a rule making process, a

3 proposed and final rule to expand the

4 exemptions for organic producers to not pay

5 into existing check off programs.

6 The other part is it also

7 authorizes the organic community to set up

8 their own check off program for the organic

9 industry. And my understanding of that

10 process is that the industry would make a

11 proposal to AMS, and AMS as a neutral party

12 would then work with that.

13 And if certain conditions are met

14 at a certain point, there would be a

15 referendum, and then the folks that were

16 potentially subjected to the organic check off

17 would have an opportunity to vote on whether

18 or not they wanted to set up an organic check

19 off or not.

20 So it's really up to the organic

21 industry to -- you have the authority to

22 request an organic check off, but you have to
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1 make that proposal to AMS to get that process

2 started.

3 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thank you

4 very much, Miles. Take a deep breath there

5 for a minute.

6 We now have Mr. Mark Lipson with

7 an update from the Secretary's office.

8 MR. LIPSON: Good afternoon

9 everybody. Wake up.

10 (General laughter.)

11 MR. LIPSON: I always seem to be

12 getting slighted in the afternoon nap time in

13 my talks this year.

14 I'm going to try and gain a few

15 minutes on our lost time, so forgive me if I

16 go a little bit fast. Definitely want to

17 leave time for a little bit of questions from

18 the Board, and if the audience -- if the Chair

19 entertains that.

20 So this is a quick update of USDA

21 organic policy realms beyond the NOP and the

22 NOSB. Despite the massive amount of things
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1 that you've heard Miles talk about that the

2 NOP and the Board have to do, there are, in

3 fact, a whole other universe of things that go

4 on in the Department of Agriculture related to

5 organic.

6 So I'm going to try and cover

7 briefly those we talked about just a little

8 bit at the training in February, so some of

9 this is in the way of update since then, and

10 other background.

11 So this is that one. All right.

12 The first point is that organic is being

13 integrated throughout the Department across

14 every agency, department-wide. And this will

15 affect our many producers and handlers and

16 consumers in other ways beyond what you track

17 with the NOP.

18 This is both the result of

19 intentional commitment by the Department and

20 this administration, as well as Congressional

21 drivers like the Farm Bill and the

22 appropriations process.
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1 When I came in and began my job as

2 organic policy advisor in 2010, there had just

3 recently been established a strategic plan

4 performance objective, not strictly a goal,

5 but a performance objective for a 25 percent

6 increase in the number of organic businesses

7 under certification by 2015 from the 2009

8 baseline.

9 We're not going to hit that goal

10 probably. We still might. But it was an

11 extremely ambitious goal and I think we'll

12 come fairly close. The very sharp spike in

13 conventional commodity prices in those years

14 I think certainly affected the conversion to

15 organic, especially in commodity crops.

16 The hiatus in the Farm Bill, we

17 had a gap of a year-and-a-half, two years in

18 some cases for some of these programs where we

19 didn't have tools and resources to continue

20 the kinds of things that we can do to help get

21 more organic production and businesses going.

22 So despite that, the trend in
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1 2013, we saw reversed in terms of the rate of

2 growth, after the rate of growth declining

3 during 2011 and 2012, and 2013 we saw that

4 rate of growth start to increase again. So

5 hopefully that's a good sign for the future.

6 My role as organic policy advisor

7 I'm going to touch on just briefly now and

8 then come back to that at the end. This is a

9 priority that the organic community had

10 expressed to the incoming administration, and

11 so I'm the first one.

12 But my job is to serve in the

13 Office of the Secretary and advise, I'm not a

14 decider, but advise the Secretary and the

15 entire realm of the Secretary's office, which

16 is all the undersecretaries, et cetera, and

17 their staffs when the O word shows up on their

18 screen.

19 And as part of that I also do work

20 very closely with the National Organic Program

21 when their thousand rule making projects make

22 it up to the policy level. And during her
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1 tenure, the Deputy Secretary, Kathleen

2 Merrigan, former deputy now, and I worked very

3 closely, essentially every day, facilitating

4 that process and putting our eyeballs on

5 everything that was coming out of NOP and

6 moving through the clearance process.

7 The first thing that we did, when

8 I came in, was to convene what had been an

9 informal USDA organic working group, and at

10 the direction of the Secretary and with the

11 Deputy's leadership, we've made the organic

12 working group more formal, in terms of

13 requiring representation from every agency in

14 the Department. And I'll speak a little bit

15 more in a second about how that works.

16 The Organic Literacy Initiative

17 was the first big project of this new

18 formalized organic working group. We did a -

19 sort of a survey process throughout USDA to

20 find out how many USDA employees in all its

21 various agencies and field offices actually

22 knew about the organic standard and the fact
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1 that a branch of USDA actually managed the

2 organic standards and the seal. And, in fact,

3 a very significant proportion of them did not,

4 or knew very little about it.

5 So we undertook what we called the

6 Organic Literacy Initiative to train USDA

7 employees about the program and the standards

8 and the seal so that they, in turn, could be

9 prepared to offer information to people who

10 came into their offices who either were

11 already organic or interested in being

12 organic, and instead of just getting a shrug

13 or a, "No, we don't do that," they would know

14 that, in fact, that is part of USDA's

15 responsibility, part of their responsibility

16 as USDA staff to facilitate and to be able to

17 know where they can direct people for more

18 information.

19 And then a year ago, May, the

20 Secretary took another step and issued his

21 departmental guidance directive to all the

22 agencies regarding organic agriculture and
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1 markets, and that was a very, very significant

2 institutional step that I'll talk a little bit

3 more about. So that's just the big picture of

4 what I'm going to try and cover, again, quite

5 quickly.

6 The guidance itself had five main

7 areas of concern. Regulatory reciprocity

8 within USDA. That is where agencies had

9 regulatory or information requirements related

10 to the programs that they were delivering that

11 may overlap with the National Organic Program

12 requirements, to streamline those and, in

13 fact, make sure that they weren't in conflict

14 and to try and reduce the paperwork burden on

15 producers and handlers to make it work better

16 for everybody. So the directive requires

17 agencies to work on that process with the NOP.

18 It asks every agency for their

19 research needs related to organic, either for

20 their own purposes or for their customers'

21 purposes. Same with data. The directive

22 specified that each agency will deal with
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1 outreach and training for all of their

2 contacts throughout the country in terms of

3 how they're doing their job. And finally,

4 encouraging the growth of the organic sector

5 as the implementation of the strategic plan

6 performance objective.

7 There are organic working group

8 teams for each of these. I'll go through them

9 very quickly, just the highlights of their

10 2014 work plans related to these.

11 For the reciprocity directive, the

12 primary focus, right now, is on coordination

13 with the Natural Resources Conservation

14 Service, and their program requirements as

15 they overlap or interact with the NOP

16 requirements.

17 It's a very, very important facet

18 of how USDA can try and work better for

19 organic agriculture, and also help improve the

20 performance of organic agriculture with

21 respect to conservation activities and

22 outcomes.
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1 The work plan for the data

2 collection committee and data analysis

3 includes a master inventory of all USDA data

4 related to organic. In fact, a number of

5 agencies are collecting data, but it's not all

6 coordinated or even known to each other. So,

7 that'll be a very significant outcome for

8 everybody to have this year.

9 Support for increasing the number

10 of international trade codes. It requires a

11 fair amount of data. And then finally,

12 collation of stakeholder data needs. Many

13 agencies are hearing about different data

14 needs from their customers, so this group is

15 making an effort to collate those all in one

16 place.

17 Training and outreach. The USDA

18 organic topic pages which I'll show you in a

19 minute is a very significant new step that

20 provides a one-stop shop for all the

21 Department's information related to programs

22 that affect, or are specifically for organic
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1 agriculture.

2 We're in the process now of

3 updating our organic resource guide with new

4 information following the Farm Bill. And we

5 will continue the progress on the Organic

6 Literacy Initiative.

7 To date, as of March, there were

8 over 30,000 USDA employees that have taken the

9 basic organic 101 online training course. So

10 that's essentially a third of the USDA

11 workforce in only about a year-and-a-half.

12 So, yeah, that's a very, very significant

13 accomplishment that should have benefits over

14 the long haul.

15 This is just a screen shot of the

16 USDA topic page. If you go to the usda.gov

17 main page, under the topics tab there is now

18 for the first time an organic topic tab, which

19 contains links to all the agencies and their

20 work related to organic, and their work

21 related to the organic working group.

22 Under the Secretary's guidance
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1 relative to growth of the organic sector, this

2 is still in its early stages of development,

3 but we're going to start out with sort of an

4 electronic town hall discussion in the --

5 probably in the next month or so, so keep your

6 eyes out for that, to try and generate ideas

7 about how we better facilitate growth of

8 organic.

9 And the second project out for

10 that team is trying to collect transition

11 resources that are scattered throughout the

12 Department and other places and try and do a

13 better job of at least providing a one-stop

14 shop for that kind of information.

15 And one place where the guidance

16 intersects directly in the work of the OWG,

17 intersects directly with that of the Board is

18 in terms of the research priorities that the

19 Board passed in 2012 and is going to work on

20 again at this meeting.

21 The research team of the organic

22 working group reviewed the research
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1 recommendations from the Board recently and

2 has provided an assessment. So that's what

3 Michelle just passed out to all of you, and I

4 think there are a handful of copies out on the

5 table for the audience, and we'll be happy to

6 make more, and that'll be made part of the

7 record of this meeting.

8 So this group included all the

9 research agencies, the National Institute for

10 Agriculture, ARS, ERS, also included NRCS and

11 Dr. Brines from the NOP program also

12 participated on this team to make sure that

13 she could help translate, you know, some of

14 what the Board was trying to express.

15 So, these comments and

16 recommendations from the research team have

17 now been provided back to the Board. We gave

18 them to the materials committee a couple of

19 weeks ago and to the Board as a whole now.

20 And those recommendations will also go to the

21 various research agencies themselves, to their

22 leaderships.
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1 And just a couple of highlights

2 related to that. The research priorities in

3 terms of whole farm systems, alternatives for

4 antibiotics, alternatives for methionine and

5 investigation of the principles of livestock

6 herd health have been, and will continue to be

7 prioritized by the Organic Research and

8 Extension Initiative. These are things that,

9 you know, have been heard before and have been

10 incorporated into the priorities.

11 But one of the pieces of feedback

12 that we did get from the research work team

13 was that the strength of proposals that they

14 have received for some of these topics has not

15 been adequate, that even though it's been made

16 a priority, the requirements for the quality

17 and methodology of the proposed project still

18 has to be at the highest level because it is

19 a very, very competitive program.

20 So that's just an important bit of

21 feedback that people should be carrying back

22 to their partners in research institutions and
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1 in formulating their own proposals.

2 And one other thing I'll do -

3 I'll mention from this feedback is that they

4 felt that the questions and recommendations

5 that the Board was posing in terms of

6 aquaculture, and in terms of genetically

7 engineered vaccines needed more specificity

8 for them to be able to respond adequately.

9 So they're looking for more

10 specificity and detail in terms of

11 recommendations from the Board, in terms of

12 how USDA research programs can assist with

13 those questions. So, you know, there's a

14 little more nuance than that to it, but that's

15 just one of the highlights of the feedback.

16 I'm not really going to go into

17 more detail on any of Farm Bill issues here in

18 the interest of time. We did have a couple of

19 Farm Bill listening sessions on organic, a

20 short one at the Natural Foods Expo and then

21 a more formal one that we conducted at USDA

22 with a number of phone lines for people to
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1 participate.

2 All of this feedback on

3 implementation of the Farm Bill programs is

4 ongoing, so you can make comments any time to

5 any of the agencies, and you can find that

6 information on the USDA Farm Bill topic page

7 with information about whom to contact, and

8 you can also certainly always find me for that

9 information.

10 The request for applications for

11 2014 for the Organic Research and Extension

12 Initiative is already out there. If you're

13 not working on a proposal now, you probably

14 don't have too much time left to start. But

15 that cycle is underway and we're looking

16 forward to the results.

17 I just want to emphasize my

18 gratitude to everybody who worked on all of

19 these topics during the Farm Bill process.

20 It's incredibly important that we got all

21 these things restored in the Farm Bill and

22 everybody who worked on that deserves thanks
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1 from those of us who get to implement it.

2 So I'll just close by talking a

3 little bit about my role and my position.

4 This is the last Board meeting that I'll

5 attend in this capacity. It'll be four years

6 in a few weeks since I started this job, so my

7 contract term is ending, and I am not going to

8 continue doing it.

9 So by the time the next Board

10 meeting comes around, there should be a new

11 organic policy advisor in this capacity. The

12 Secretary and the leadership of the Department

13 are very committed to this role continuing.

14 It has shown to have benefits for everybody in

15 the Department to have such a position.

16 It won't necessarily look exactly

17 like mine because we are trying to figure out

18 how best to institutionalize it, because mine

19 was a temporary position. And there is a

20 commitment to trying to make this a permanent

21 role so that it doesn't go away with the next

22 administration.
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1 There may be several people with

2 different assignments fulfilling different

3 parts of the role, but it is something that

4 you all should, you know, be cognizant of in

5 its transition and make best use of it.

6 I guess I'll stop there. I don't

7 know how long that ended up being, but thank

8 you all for your service and, you know,

9 interaction with the -- all these other things

10 that we've got to work on to advance organic

11 agriculture beyond the standards and the

12 certification process.

13 CHAIR STONE: Well, Mark, that was

14 obviously very impressive of the broader being

15 institutionalized within USDA. And as a

16 long-time friend and benefactor of your

17 knowledge of organics, I'd like for us to give

18 you a hand for what you've done for all of us

19 --

20 (General applause.)

21 MR. LIPSON: Thank you. Thank

22 you.
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1 CHAIR STONE: No, thank you, Mark.

2 Is there any follow-ups? I mean

3 that's just impressive.

4 And, John?

5 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Thank you,

6 Mark. Be nice to maybe see you around the

7 home front a little bit more than we have

8 lately. It'll be nice.

9 I had two questions. The organic

10 topics tab that you talked about, what's the

11 role, like why is that an important thing in

12 your view? And, yes, that is a leading

13 question.

14 MR. LIPSON: The organic topic

15 page, you know, in and of itself, well, it's

16 on the website but information is powerful and

17 all the activity that's going on in the

18 Department with respect to organic and all

19 these other spheres has been very difficult

20 for people to access.

21 Look, the USDA website overall has

22 not been very user friendly, I think. You
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1 know, I'm not throwing anybody under the bus

2 to say that because it's a vast, you know,

3 department and many, many different kinds of

4 things and all different kinds of approaches

5 to web-based information.

6 So the fact that we were able to

7 collate it all in one place and have a focus

8 for maintaining that information, you know, so

9 that it can be refreshed more easily I think

10 will serve everybody. And so it's just a

11 manifestation of the sort of working level

12 attention to what's needed.

13 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: So correct me

14 if I'm wrong. That's a way for the USDA to

15 recognized the kind of interest there is in a

16 really easily documentable form.

17 MR. LIPSON: Well, it is a

18 recognition of the interest. And as we were

19 developing the website, the IT people told us

20 that organic was consistently among the top

21 three search items in the little search box

22 for the USDA webpage.
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1 And so that contrasted with the

2 fact that the only link you could get from the

3 main page was to NOP, and that was listed

4 under Nutrition for some reason, you know,

5 spoke to the importance of being able to have

6 a better way of people finding that

7 information.

8 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Then my last

9 question, what are you most excited about?

10 Out of the things that you've been able to do

11 in four years, what thrills you, you know, if

12 you had to pick one.

13 MR. LIPSON: Well, the Organic

14 Literacy Initiative, I think, is hard to

15 overstate the importance of and how far we

16 came so quickly in terms of

17 institutionalizing, respect for, and attention

18 to the needs of the organic sector within all

19 these different parts of the Department.

20 CHAIR STONE: Nick?

21 MEMBER MARAVELL: Thanks for that

22 presentation, Mark. I was wondering if you
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1 could just give us a little bit of your take

2 on where the AC -- I noticed you left that one

3 out -- where the AC21 committee is sort of

4 going, and how we in the organic community can

5 best participate in that.

6 MR. LIPSON: The advisory

7 committee on agricultural biotechnology for

8 the 21st century, otherwise known as AC21, was

9 reauthorized in the Farm Bill, because it's a

10 subsidiary of the master research advisory

11 FACA committee, so it had a hiatus during the

12 Farm Bill disruption.

13 So it has been reauthorized but it

14 hasn't been reconvened or recharged yet. So

15 one of the products of the previous version of

16 the advisory committee was in their report of

17 November 2012 which included a recommendation

18 for the Department to seek stakeholder input

19 on the whole question of co-existence and

20 information and stewardship practices that

21 facilitate co-existence.

22 That is, how users of different
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1 production systems and technologies can

2 co-equally meet the needs of their markets.

3 That's how -- basically how it's defined.

4 So USDA did have a Federal

5 Register notice seeking that information, a

6 specific set of questions and some more

7 general solicitation of input. That Federal

8 Register comment period, after extension,

9 closed on March 3, and those comments are

10 being processed now by the Department.

11 And as a result of analyzing those

12 comments, there will be proposals and

13 discussion for how to move forward in terms of

14 either public workshops and/or reconvening the

15 AC 21 committee with a new charge to follow up

16 on some specific questions. But I don't know

17 what those are going to look like right now.

18 I think the best thing to do is to

19 look for the results of that comment analysis

20 -- and all those comments of course are

21 visible on regulations.gov -- and continue to

22 provide your inputs to what you think the next
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1 steps for USDA should be. That's the best

2 answer I can give you.

3 CHAIR STONE: All right. Mark,

4 thank you very much for being here, and thank

5 you for your work in DC and devoting that much

6 time and attention to this cause. Thank you

7 and good luck.

8 MR. LIPSON: All right. And I

9 just -- I want to emphasize the importance of

10 our next speaker, who is from the Natural

11 Resources Conservation Service, Sarah Brown,

12 who is one of the primary spear carriers

13 institutionalizing organic throughout field

14 offices of NRCS in the -- throughout the whole

15 country.

16 And the topics that she's

17 addressing are very, very important for the

18 Board and for the organic community as a whole

19 in terms of better service by the conservation

20 programs, better conservation performance of

21 organic systems. Thanks.

22 CHAIR STONE: Well, Sarah, I don't
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1 think I could a better introduction than that,

2 so the floor is all yours, and thank you for

3 being here as well.

4 MS. BROWN: Yes, thank you. I was

5 going to sit up here an start by thanking Mark

6 because he's one of the primary reasons I'm

7 here. The efforts to integrate USDA agencies,

8 efforts around organic definitely falls in

9 line with the work I've been doing.

10 And just to give a little bit of

11 background before I get started here, I have

12 been working with the Natural Resource

13 Conservation Service now for about four years

14 in the position as the National Organic

15 Specialist with the agency.

16 And it's a pretty unique role.

17 I'm supported by a contribution agreement

18 between NRCS and my employer, Oregon Tilth,

19 and when I initially started, the focus was to

20 provide technical assistance to the agency.

21 So I've been to a dozen plus

22 states offering in-person trainings to NRCS
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1 staff and other ag professionals. I've

2 actually had the opportunity to visit Mac's

3 farm with about 30 NRCSers and talk about how

4 they're managing soil fertility. So, it's

5 been a really interesting and unique

6 perspective.

7 And the response from NRCS has

8 been overwhelmingly positive. The fact that

9 I'm here today, I think, is a testament to how

10 far we've come because when in initially

11 started there was very little conversation

12 between NRCS and NOP and there's quite a bit

13 of overlap in our goals to promote and further

14 sustainable agriculture. So we've come a

15 long, long way.

16 So that being said, I'll try to

17 move this forward here. I'm going to talk

18 very briefly about the NRCS programs that are

19 available to organic producers, and

20 unfortunately they've been pretty

21 underutilized, and I'm hoping that in a room

22 here of folks that are supporting organic,
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1 it's something that we can begin to talk a

2 little bit more about.

3 Secondly, I wanted to just briefly

4 mention some of the work that we're doing to

5 link up organic system plans with conservation

6 planning, because there's a lot of opportunity

7 to reduce redundancy, one of the primary goals

8 obviously of Sound and Sensible.

9 And then lastly, I'm going to be

10 continuing the conversation that -- well, I

11 guess maybe starting the conversation in

12 response to the memo that went out yesterday

13 by the NOP relating to soil conservation on

14 organic farms. So I'll be sharing the NRCS

15 kind of perspective and experience about that.

16 So just very briefly, the NRCS is

17 very much focused on conservation and so they

18 have a couple of different services and

19 methods of approaching that. If you haven't

20 seen their web soil survey, it's an awesome

21 resource.

22 And I should mention also that I
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1 am a transitioning farmer. My husband and I

2 own land in Oregon, so I have had the

3 opportunity to work with NRCS firsthand and

4 get some insider perspective on what that

5 process looks like. And it's been an

6 incredibly valuable program and service for us

7 as well.

8 So not only can you get assistance

9 with designing conservation practices, but you

10 can also get financial assistance, which is a

11 big, big help, especially as a beginning

12 farmer. There is also programs and projects

13 related to emergency assistance, and I work

14 with partners, our agreement being one of

15 those.

16 So when you start with NRCS, the

17 primary issue is what are producers' resource

18 concerns? And all these photos here are

19 photos that I've taken on organic farms, and

20 that's kind of unfortunate because there are

21 issues on some of these farms, and I have

22 different label descriptions here of resource
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1 concerns.

2 And I want to be really clear that

3 resource concerns mean different things to

4 different people, but NRCS has very specific

5 standards and definitions of what those look

6 like. So I think the current list is there's

7 60 resource concerns that NRCS evaluates. And

8 these are just some of those.

9 And the way that they evaluate

10 them, they use very complex tools that most

11 people would have a very difficult time

12 learning how to use, myself being one of them.

13 And the tools are very helpful, they provide

14 quantitative kind of measures of what

15 different resource concerns look like.

16 That being said, they're just a

17 tool and they're not perfect, and especially

18 when you're talking about a CSA farm that has

19 100 different crops on an acre and a half.

20 Things get really, really complicated.

21 And so I do want to mention while

22 these are very valuable tools, and I think
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1 there's opportunity to further their use,

2 there are members of the organic community

3 that see concerns with using them.

4 RUSLE2 being one. It measures

5 erosion on organic farms, and there's some

6 question about whether or not it accurately

7 accounts for the function of soil biology.

8 And so clearly that's worth discussing and

9 figuring out.

10 So once NRCS is out on your farm,

11 you identify resource concerns, there's

12 programs and there's finances to help

13 producers. EQIP is one of those programs. A

14 producer will be able to choose from a variety

15 of conservation practices.

16 And the program, it's not just for

17 certified producers, so transitional and

18 exempt producers are also eligible to apply

19 for this program, which is great because

20 they're definitely often in need of assistance

21 as well.

22 There are lower financial limits
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1 to this program than if you go through regular

2 EQIP, but the hope and the goal, initially the

3 intent was to spread the money further. As I

4 mentioned, unfortunately it's still

5 underutilized.

6 In some things it's probably

7 difficult to see, but one of the issues that

8 still needs to be addressed that I just raise

9 here for awareness, is that transitioning and

10 exempt producers are still actually required

11 because of statute to self-certify that

12 they're developing or implementing an organic

13 system plan, which is not a National Organic

14 Program requirement.

15 So that's still an issue that

16 we're talking about and trying to address. In

17 most cases that's not a significant hurdle,

18 but it is a little bit of an inconsistency.

19 So what are conservation

20 practices? These are all depicting different

21 options producers have: prescribed grazing,

22 compost facilities, pollinator habitat, mulch,
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1 high tunnels, all sorts of different things

2 producers can choose from.

3 We just put in 1200 feet of

4 pollinator habitat on our farm along the road

5 that's also going to serve as a buffer, and

6 we're pretty excited about that.

7 And this is an example of what a

8 producer's conservation map might look like of

9 their operation. So this is a diversified

10 farm in California. They received assistance

11 implementing watering facilities, fences,

12 hedgerows, cover crops, mulching, pest

13 management, nutrient management, there's a

14 whole host of practices to choose from.

15 You can find out more on the

16 website. And additionally on the website,

17 there's a list of the NRCS state organic

18 contacts. So it's a really important thing to

19 be aware of, that each state has an organic

20 contact in their office, which can be a very

21 helpful advocate if there are issues on the

22 field levels.
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1 And briefly I also wanted to

2 mention the conservation stewardship program.

3 This really aims to work with producers who

4 are already implementing conservation a bit

5 and helping them take it to the next level.

6 And so they do that through a variety of

7 enhancements, so maybe the producer's already

8 covercropping, but they want to begin

9 inter-cropping. So this is an example of one

10 of the practices -- or the, I'm sorry, the

11 enhancements that might be available to them.

12 Okay. And so some of the key I

13 think opportunities for overlap between the

14 efforts or the services available through NRCS

15 and the NOP standards are definitely related

16 to buffers and building soil organic matter.

17 There's a lot there and lot that producers can

18 access.

19 Crop rotations, nutrient

20 management, minimizing erosion, which I'll

21 speak to in just a bit, efforts to increase

22 biodiversity. NRCS has hedgerows and you can
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1 get assistance with pollinator meadows and

2 riparian areas, all sorts of different things

3 along those lines and structural practices as

4 well.

5 So the key thing here is that NRCS

6 does not work on production-related issues.

7 So if a producer came in and said, I'm really

8 interested in using less fertilizer because

9 I'm spending a lot of money and it's just cost

10 prohibitive to me, that's not really an

11 approach that would get you very far with

12 NRCS.

13 Same if you said, I'm having

14 really bad pest pressure and, you know, I want

15 to spray. That's really not going to get you

16 anywhere. So you have to really think about

17 it in terms of resource concerns and

18 conservation.

19 So Mark briefly mentioned our

20 efforts to link conservation plans and organic

21 system plans. And the way that we've been

22 doing this -- and I apologize here if I'm
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1 getting into acronyms and codes -- but NRCS

2 has had a very specific plan available for

3 producers called the CAP 138.

4 And the goal and the intent of

5 that was to aid transitioning producers

6 through the process to help them get ready for

7 organic certification. Unfortunately it has

8 fallen a little bit short in doing that,

9 mostly because of the format.

10 Also because the individuals who

11 are supposed to be writing this plan, the

12 Technical Service Providers, there's only

13 about a dozen nationwide. I think there's two

14 or three in the room here today. But there's

15 not enough folks available. Training them on

16 how to use NRCS tools is really, really

17 complicated.

18 And so Melissa and I and a couple

19 of other folks have been meeting on a very

20 regular basis to revisit the intent of this

21 plan and discuss maybe there's a different

22 approach we can take.
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1 And what we're currently working

2 on, which I'm really excited about, and I was

3 able to share with the different certifiers

4 this last February, is we've taken the

5 national -- the NOP OSP template and we've

6 pulled out the components of that that are

7 related to NRCS, so soil fertility,

8 cover-cropping, crop rotation, things that

9 NRCS can get behind and relate to, and we've

10 taken that and we're packaging that as the CAP

11 138.

12 And so our goal ultimately is that

13 a producer might be able to go to NRCS, and

14 NRCS can help them fill out the CAP 138 and

15 the left over portions that NRCS can't help

16 with, the land use history, the record

17 keeping, the commingling and contamination,

18 the producer will still be responsible for

19 that portion, but after having gone to NRCS,

20 half of their OSP might be completed.

21 And so it significantly cuts down

22 on what producers have identified as a barrier
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1 to certification. And so we're really hopeful

2 this is going to work. We've gotten pretty

3 far with it so far, and we're packaging it and

4 formatting it, and I'd love to get comments

5 from more folks about what they think about

6 this.

7 And then lastly I was asked to

8 come and talk about soil conservation and

9 erosion on organic farms. And before I get

10 too far into this, I just want to acknowledge

11 that I think this is a really sensitive topic.

12 The last thing I want to do here

13 today is promote a stereotype that soil

14 erosion is rampant on organic farms, because

15 that is not at all my belief.

16 From my experience working with

17 NRCS I do hear regularly from planners that

18 it's an issue that they're seeing out in the

19 field and they don't know how to address it.

20 They don't want to be the regulators or, you

21 know, the whistleblowers calling up certifiers

22 and complaining. And so it's an issue that we
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1 do need to address.

2 And additionally, NRCS has taken

3 on a campaign, the Soil Health Initiative,

4 talking a lot about minimizing erosion and

5 cover-cropping. And so I feel like this topic

6 is becoming much more talked about and

7 discussed.

8 And folks who are looking to, I

9 don't know, tear down organic often criticize

10 it because of what might be excessive tillage

11 on a very small number of farms. We don't

12 know the scope of this problem, and so I want

13 to acknowledge that from the very beginning.

14 That being said, I do want to talk

15 about what's happening from the NRCS

16 perspective and hopefully this will be the

17 start of a much larger conversation.

18 So just to give a little bit of

19 background, in the 85 Farm Bill there were

20 provisions related to highly erodible land,

21 and I will define that for you here in a

22 second. It's pretty self-explanatory. But
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1 basically, producers have to be in compliance

2 with highly erodible land provisions to be

3 eligible for some USDA programs.

4 And what that means is, is if

5 they're farming highly erodible land, they

6 have to agree to not plant or produce a

7 commodity on it unless they are applying an

8 approved conservation plan.

9 So the issue that I hear from NRCS

10 and planners in the field is that sometimes

11 they're going out to certify organic farms and

12 they're out of compliance with this provision.

13 And so that means they're being certified by

14 an inspector in, you know, the NOP -- two NOP

15 programs, and yet when NRCS goes out and runs

16 the assessment tools, they're eroding at

17 excessive rates. And so you can see the

18 inconsistency that's happening there.

19 And so exactly what highly

20 erodible land is, it's determined based on a

21 number of factors of that particular piece of

22 property. NRCS routinely makes determinations
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1 about whether land is or is not highly

2 erodible, and they can do so upon request.

3 So what that means, to be in

4 compliance, it actually allows for twice the

5 tolerable soil erosion of that -- of a basic

6 conservation plan. So to be in compliance

7 doesn't mean you're not eroding, it means

8 you're eroding pretty significantly -- I'm

9 sorry, to be out of compliance.

10 And when that's identified on a

11 farm, the producer has up to a year to get

12 into compliance working with NRCS. So there's

13 support available to them.

14 So all that being said, I think

15 this is a bigger topic than just what is

16 highly erodible land and how often that

17 specific situation is actually occurring. On

18 my farm, it's nearly impossible for us to do

19 no-till because we're farming vegetables. And

20 it's very hard to plant a carrot seed into a

21 no-till field.

22 We grow cover crops and we try to
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1 build our soil organic matter because of that,

2 but oftentimes there can't -- or I shouldn't

3 say oftentimes -- there can be situations

4 where tillage is relied on too heavily. And

5 so as an organic community, I think this is a

6 conversation we need to continue having and

7 talking about.

8 And I posed some questions here

9 for us to consider. A lot of these are

10 mirrored in the memo that went out yesterday

11 by the National Organic Program. Firstly, I

12 think we need to figure out how big of an

13 issue this really is. I know that ACAs are

14 probably wanting more guidance on how to

15 assess soil erosion, and how they're doing it

16 to begin with, I think, is an important

17 question.

18 Are visual assessments really

19 enough once a year, if it's not during the

20 rainy season. Maybe for some farms it is,

21 maybe for some it's not. I don't know what

22 the follow-up questions are that inspectors
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1 are asking.

2 Also, does highly erodible land,

3 or HEL determinants play into this

4 conversation at all? Should producers have

5 to report if they're farming highly erodible

6 land to their inspector or to their certifier?

7 And then how do ACAs determine if there's a

8 non-compliance at all, what's the benchmarks

9 that they're looking at?

10 And lastly another issue that I

11 hear about from NRCS folks is in relation to

12 outdoor access and if that's being required in

13 situations where it might not be very

14 appropriate because of soil conditions.

15 So, again, I want to reiterate I

16 think this is an important conversation to

17 have and hopefully this is just the starting

18 point of it.

19 And this is -- actually I put this

20 up again. This is a photo of our pasture

21 field with a significant erosion problem in

22 the middle. We just bought our land a
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1 year-and-a-half ago. And so, even with the

2 best intentions, issues occur. And

3 fortunately we're working with NRCS to address

4 this.

5 So that's all I have right now.

6 And I'm open to any questions the Board might

7 have.

8 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank

9 you, Sarah. I know when the NRCS folks were

10 at our farm they were scratching their head

11 pretty good because we had laid black plastic

12 and then we had planted rye grass and

13 buckwheat in between the plastic. They'd

14 never seen plastic with purposely planted

15 grass between the rows. That's our way to

16 keep RUSLE from implementing -- changing

17 things on our farm.

18 So along that line, a lot of --

19 the tech gods at NRCS can be fairly rigid in

20 their requirements to meet those, and OSPs are

21 purposely very not rigid. Is there

22 conversation about coordinating those?
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1 MS. BROWN: Yeah, Melissa and I

2 have had a number of conversations about that.

3 For instance, with NRCS and nutrient

4 management, if you were to sign up for

5 assistance for nutrient management as a

6 practice, you have to complete a full nutrient

7 management budget with very precise details on

8 how that'll be implemented, much more details

9 than are required on an organic system plan.

10 And so what that overlap looks

11 like is difficult to figure out, and we don't

12 feel like we can do it entirely. There might

13 have to be some translation of information

14 between the two worlds. But, I think we're

15 getting close with this CAP plan, so.

16 CHAIR STONE: Good. Thanks.

17 Maybe you can convince Mark to stick around

18 for another year or so.

19 Jean?

20 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Hi. That was

21 a great report. I'm all in favor of soil.

22 As an inspector, so we had
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1 training with a certified -- one of the

2 certifieds I was working with, Le Monde

3 organic farmers, and so as inspectors, when we

4 go out there we have some specific questions

5 on the inspection report that we're required

6 to fill out to send back as part of the -- our

7 inspector report.

8 And I'd be interested to know if

9 you've done any research or looked around to

10 see which other certifying agencies around the

11 country are -- have -- already have -- are

12 doing this, are already having their

13 inspectors trained to look for erosion.

14 And I'm wondering, this is sort of

15 a two-part thing, is this something that our

16 accreditation subcommittee should be looking

17 at, or the crops subcommittee be looking at as

18 part of a work plan item?

19 MR. McEVOY: Yeah, we just sent

20 you a memo, Friday I believe, posted yesterday

21 that we do want this to be a work plan item

22 for the certification, accreditation and
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1 compliance subcommittee. So it has some

2 specific ideas in there and some questions in

3 there, that we'd like this to be looked at.

4 In terms of the accreditation

5 audits, it's already part of the audits. Is

6 that it's one of the criteria to see that

7 certifiers are evaluating compliance with

8 205.200, 205.201, 205.202, all the different

9 -- and 203 -- all the different elements in

10 terms of meeting and improving natural

11 resources and soil and water quality. So it's

12 already part of the process.

13 I think what we're asking the

14 subcommittee to do is to look -- and the Board

15 to do -- is to look are there better tools,

16 are there more tools that certifiers could be

17 using, technical assistance that could be

18 provided to organic producers and tools for

19 evaluation to ensure that the -- those natural

20 resources are conserved on all organic farms.

21 I just think it's an area that we

22 haven't really looked at, the Board hasn't
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1 really looked at. There's some real expertise

2 on this Board currently to take a look at this

3 with Francis here. What are the best

4 practices for certifiers to utilize to

5 evaluate those requirements.

6 CHAIR STONE: Francis.

7 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you, Sarah.

8 As a soil scientist myself, I wanted to point

9 out something that you're probably well aware

10 of, is that often if you can set aside 10 or

11 15 percent of the erodible land in buffer

12 strips and waterways, grass waterways and so

13 forth, in perennial crop you can -- perennial

14 cover you can solve 90 percent of your problem

15 by just a small, as you well know.

16 So I think of organic farms could

17 really make a lot of progress in erosion if

18 they would just use their diversity on areas

19 that would help protect the soil. I think

20 that's a really important thing.

21 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.
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1 Thank you for the presentation. When I

2 started farming again three years ago, and I

3 went over to talk to the NRCS agents when they

4 were at my neighbors, and was told that we

5 would not be eligible for any NRCS funding

6 until we had had sales of at least $1,000 for

7 two years in a row.

8 And I don't know if this is a

9 California thing or if it's nationwide, but

10 isn't that an impediment to beginning farmers

11 who haven't had sales for two years in a row?

12 And I'm also wondering if that is only for

13 funded projects, or applies to advice like

14 about erosion control as well.

15 MS. BROWN: That is -- well, what

16 they were referring to would be national

17 guidelines, and that's no longer the case, and

18 I'm not even sure they had interpreted that

19 correctly for you. At this point, I believe,

20 and I don't want to mis-speak, but I don't

21 think that is a requirement any longer, that

22 you have to have sold $1,000 worth.
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1 And I know that beginning farmers,

2 there's additional financial assistance

3 available to that group. So -- and that

4 specifically was in regards to the EQIP

5 program. Technical assistance you should have

6 access to, regardless of your income at all.

7 So, yeah, I -- one of my key

8 efforts has been to go around and work with

9 NRCS staff to make sure they know about what

10 organic is and how it's different implementing

11 a hedgerow on an organic farm, or factoring

12 cover crops and compost into a nutrient

13 management plan. And so, we still have some

14 work ahead of us in that regard.

15 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Again, Sarah,

16 thank you very much for being here, and thank

17 you for your work, and there is a lot of

18 overlap there, so thank you.

19 (General applause.)

20 CHAIR STONE: Okay. We're going

21 to move in -- we're significantly behind

22 schedule, even though we took an hour off the
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1 agenda, but, again, this is an important part

2 of why we convene, and so we're going to start

3 with public comment period.

4 Do we need a break? Thank you.

5 We'll take a break. Let's do it at 15

6 minutes, which is going to put us 45 minutes

7 behind schedule, so we'll be back here at

8 3:45.

9 (Whereupon, a short recess was

10 taken.)

11 CHAIR STONE: Okay. If I could

12 everyone start taking their seats, please. We

13 need to get started on the public comment.

14 We're going to be here a little bit late as it

15 is.

16 (Pause.)

17 MALE VOICE: I second.

18 CHAIR STONE: Sure enough, if we

19 could have everyone take their seat, please,

20 so we can get started. I have a few prefacing

21 comments, but I want those of you that are

22 presenting, the -- we are running late, so
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1 Board members, I'm going to be pretty

2 scrutinizing in questions, if at all. I hate

3 to do that, I don't want to do that, but we're

4 going to run pretty late as it is.

5 So, first of all, we -- the Board

6 always debates how much time can we devote.

7 It depends on how many requests for sign-ups

8 we have for public -- for oral comments. It

9 was 87, 89, Michelle, somewhere in there, and

10 as Miles mentioned this earlier, it's almost

11 a third of the meeting that we devote to this.

12 So we as a Board don't think that

13 it has more merit than written comments, but

14 it is nice to hear it. I would recommend

15 that those of you that have submitted written

16 comments, that you submit something slightly

17 different from the microphone, because, as I

18 said, all the Board members scrutinize written

19 comments very, very thoroughly.

20 So we did decide on four minutes.

21 We have the little stoplight system that we

22 implemented a little bit. When you see the
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1 yellow light, that means you're down to a

2 minute and you might start winding down.

3 Something we did in I guess it was

4 in Portland. Someone, I'm sorry, I don't

5 remember who it was, stopped exactly when the

6 red light went on. They got a gift. We have

7 gifts for the people that time it perfectly;

8 your USDA mug.

9 And there's another person that

10 stopped immediately in mid-word when the light

11 turned red, so they get a gift as well. So we

12 have organic t-shirts for those that -- and

13 truthfully it's respect for the timing and for

14 those that follow you on the program. So we

15 appreciate your respect for the time.

16 We request that there's no

17 substitutions. If you have comment or prep,

18 if there's things like that, if you could do

19 it outside just so it's not disruptive to the

20 person commenting, there will be sort of an

21 on-deck chair over there that Will is sitting

22 in now, so that you can get to the podium and
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1 reduce the time between.

2 We ask that you focus on the

3 issues, not people, and, please, no personal

4 attacks. And please don't interrupt each

5 other. Again, we take this very seriously and

6 we'd like the audience members to listen to

7 each other's comments seriously.

8 And, again, questions only if you

9 are acknowledged by the Chair to ask a

10 question.

11 So with no further ado, Mr. Mark

12 Kastel, you're up first. And Colin Archipley

13 in on deck in the -- thank you.

14 (Pause.)

15 MR. KASTEL: And I already see the

16 clock is going, and I want that mug, Mac, so

17 restart it to six minutes. You got that

18 ready? I'm supervising here. It doesn't even

19 -- it starts at 3:54. It won't even start at

20 three -- four minutes.

21 We're having a bit of a technical

22 -- no, wait. I could -- I'll start and then
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1 she'll catch up. That way I'll get extra

2 time.

3 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Why

4 should citizens and public interest groups

5 bother going to the effort of attending these

6 meetings? When Cornucopia was founded 10

7 years ago, our first mission was to force the

8 USDA to crack down on industrial dairies, each

9 milking thousands of cows each, that refused

10 to graze their cattle.

11 We helped facilitate the

12 attendance of scores of farmers over a period

13 of years. We collaborated with NOSB members

14 to craft language. It was actually -- it

15 would be in force today. It would be good

16 language if that was happening.

17 Today, the almighty authority at

18 the NOP has seized control of this committee

19 as a deliberative body. You will now only be

20 allowed to discuss issues that they deem

21 appropriate. This is dead wrong, and a

22 violation of both the spirit and letter of the
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1 Organic Foods Production Act of 1990.

2 Many of us involved in the 1980s

3 who supported OFPA never would have done so

4 without the safeguards built in, vis-à-vis the

5 power vested in the NOSB. I'm glad that late

6 last week Senator Patrick Leahy and

7 Representative Peter DeFazio sent a

8 strongly-worded letter of protest to USDA

9 Secretary Vilsack condemning the unilateral

10 power grab.

11 Mr. McEvoy, shame on you for

12 either going along with this or, quite

13 frankly, we don't know if you are the chief

14 architect of this betrayal or you were just

15 carrying it out. This is a turning point. We

16 are headed to court. This is a nation of

17 laws.

18 Your job, Mr. McEvoy, and that of

19 your boss, Secretary Vilsack, is to implement

20 and enforce the laws passed by Congress. The

21 National Organic Program is willfully failing

22 on both counts.
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1 Let me provide one example for the

2 NOSB and audience in terms of failure of

3 enforcement. As many of you know, Cornucopia

4 just refiled a formal legal complaint alleging

5 violations in the operation of a giant dairy

6 in Idaho that has been operated by Dean Foods

7 and WhiteWave.

8 Reportedly, it milks cows three

9 and four times a day without allowing them

10 legal access to pasture. We filed complaints

11 against this dairy before, and based on FOIA

12 documents it appeared that the NOP had never

13 investigated.

14 Why would some farms get

15 decertified, but others charged with similar

16 transgressions not? Why would Aurora Dairy be

17 found in violation of the law after they were

18 closely scrutinized, and why would the

19 powerful corporate lender -- I'm sorry, the

20 corporate leaders at Dean Foods and WhiteWave

21 be able to scoff at the law?

22 We were recently told by the head
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1 of NOP enforcement that you indeed did

2 investigate by sending in the certifier,

3 Quality Assurance International. Isn't that

4 the fox watching the chicken coop?

5 QAI is the same certifier that

6 certified Vander Eyk Dairy in California;

7 10,000 cows, no pasture, decertified. QAI

8 certified initially Shamrock Dairy; thousands

9 of cows, no pasture, in the process of being

10 decertified.

11 And the NOP trusts QAI to carry

12 out the investigation? This is a gross

13 betrayal of public trust. Consumers have to

14 believe the organic law is being enforced.

15 Ethical dairy farmers are being

16 crushed in the marketplace. Most of us in

17 this room believe in the values that the

18 organic movement was founded upon. We will

19 not rest while we see the USDA attempting to

20 partner with powerful corporate interests in

21 changing the working definition of organics.

22 In closing, if the NOSB appointed
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1 the director of the NOP as Congress mandated,

2 he or she would be accountable to the organic

3 community and this Board, not to politicians.

4 Far less tumult and a stronger organic label.

5 Thank you very much.

6 (General applause.)

7 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Mark.

8 That's pretty good.

9 MR. KASTEL: I get the mug now,

10 Mac.

11 CHAIR STONE: Well, you have to

12 wait till the end to see how the others do.

13 Okay?

14 MR. KASTEL: Someone might be

15 better and I --

16 CHAIR STONE: Someone might be --

17 MR. KASTEL: -- refer to them.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Good job.

20 Thank you.

21 Okay. Colin Archipley, and please

22 help me if I --
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1 MR. KASTEL: I think there might

2 be a question from one of your --

3 CHAIR STONE: Oh --

4 MR. KASTEL: -- colleagues, Mr.

5 Chairman.

6 CHAIR STONE: Jennifer?

7 MR. KASTEL: I'm hard of hearing

8 --

9 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you.

10 MR. KASTEL: -- Jennifer.

11 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you.

12 MR. KASTEL: Muscle right up to

13 that microphone.

14 MEMBER TAYLOR: Okay. I was just

15 wondering if, within all of the comments that

16 you provided for us today, and thank you for

17 speaking, what would be the most important

18 issue that you would summarize?

19 MR. KASTEL: Okay. Well, I think

20 the general, what I would call general power

21 grab on the part of the USDA. We saw a visual

22 demonstration today of dissatisfaction with
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1 the organic community on the issue of the

2 Sunsetting.

3 On one end, I was told by the

4 Organic Consumers Association before they, you

5 know, engaged in that activity, that they had

6 80,000 consumers sign a petition, electronic

7 petition stating their discomfort.

8 On the other end of the divide we

9 have the elected board chairman of the Organic

10 Trade Association call my colleagues at the

11 Center for Food Safety, Food and Water Watch,

12 and Consumers Union liars, and asking the

13 organic community to get behind the organic

14 program.

15 So, you know, whether -- whichever

16 side of the fence you're on, this is a

17 black-eye to organics, and is deleterious to

18 our credibility in the eyes of consumers.

19 So, you know, I guess the three

20 points that I'll make, number one, OFPA

21 specifically states, and we saw this

22 confrontation brought up by the motion that
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1 Mr. Feldman brought forward to revert to the

2 NOSB elected Board Chairman. OFPA is clear by

3 saying, the NOSB will elect the chairman, and

4 the chairman's responsibility is obviously to

5 run this program.

6 The next I referenced is that the

7 -- it's very clear in OFPA that the NOSB has

8 the obligation, shall is the word, appoint the

9 staff director, and then it goes into

10 explaining how to staff the program.

11 And make no mistake about it, that

12 is Mr. McEvoy's current position, because then

13 it says that the duties of them are to carry

14 out this Act, the Organic Foods Production Act

15 of 1990.

16 So the last point that we'll make,

17 and I think we'll present this in further

18 testimony, is that OFPA specifically gives the

19 authority to you and your colleagues to secure

20 the -- to TAP reviews or the technical

21 reports.

22 I can tell you that as the -- one
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1 of the directors of the Cornucopia Institute,

2 I cannot choose the auditors to -- for our

3 non-profit public charity. That has to be

4 done by the Board because the job of the

5 auditor is to support our Board and critique

6 the work of the management to make sure that

7 it's ethical.

8 The reports from the technical

9 review are not for the NOP. You folks have to

10 have confidence that they're truly being done

11 by qualified and independent individuals.

12 How can you do that when they go

13 out and contract -- and in recent years since

14 the Obama-Vilsack administration have taken

15 over, the author's name -- and where does it

16 -- where else does it occur in science -- the

17 author's names of the technical reports are

18 secret.

19 You don't even know who is

20 producing those reports, so how do you know if

21 you would have confidence in them enabling you

22 to make these difficult decisions? There's
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1 only one seat on this Board that's held by a

2 "scientist". The rest of us in this room,

3 most of us, are lay people.

4 Obviously Ms. Richardson, Mr.

5 Thicke, both hold PhDs, they're scientists.

6 A couple of our other academics are

7 scientists. But that's not a prerequisite to

8 hold many of these seats on the Board. You

9 have to have trust and confidence.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Mark.

11 MR. KASTEL: Those are the points

12 I'd like to make. Thank you for you're the

13 opportunity Mr. Chairman --

14 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thank you.

15 MR. KASTEL: -- Mr. Chairman.

16 CHAIR STONE: All right.

17 (General applause.)

18 MR. McEVOY: Yeah, just a couple

19 of things there. Mac is the Chair of the

20 National Organic Standards Board. I'm the

21 Designated Federal Officer. We both have

22 roles and responsibilities to play in this --
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1 in how this meeting operates, how the National

2 Organic Standards Board operates.

3 The other point is that there are

4 84 accredited certifiers, they have certain

5 responsibilities. They're responsible to do

6 investigations to verify organic compliance.

7 QAI is an accredited certifier.

8 And just like all the others,

9 that's the process, is that the certifiers are

10 accredited to do the work that they do, they

11 do the investigations, they verify that all

12 organic operations that are certified organic

13 are in compliance with the regulations,

14 including the Idaho dairy, including all the

15 other names that were mentioned in the last

16 person's testimony. Thank you.

17 MR. ARCHIPLEY: Good afternoon,

18 Board. I'm here today to bring light

19 discussion about soilless agriculture within

20 the organic standards. The definition of soil

21 in most dictionaries is the upper layer of

22 earth.
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1 Now we already know many growers

2 in organic standards don't grow in the upper

3 layer of earth, some may, but usually spend

4 part of the life cycle outside of the upper

5 layer of earth using plugs and whatnot.

6 So what is soilless agriculture?

7 Containers, plugs, hydroponics. Specifically

8 what is hydroponics? Hydro means labor, ponis

9 means water, so it's making the water do the

10 work for us. It's been used since the

11 beginning of agriculture. The Hanging Gardens

12 of Babylon, Floating Gardens of Aztecs and so

13 on.

14 Modern hydroponics is kind of

15 defined by college students growing hippie

16 lettuce in their closet using synthetic

17 fertilizers and whatnot. But that does not

18 define us all, and there is a return to

19 hydro-organics.

20 What is different about

21 hydro-organics systems compared to its

22 conventional hydroponic systems? The use of
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1 organic inputs and standards, and the reliance

2 of microorganisms to decompose organic matter

3 to derive nutrients.

4 Exactly the same thing that

5 happens in soils but in a contained system to

6 include aquaponics, Dutch buckets, ceilings

7 for plugs and so forth. The only difference

8 is not using sand, silt or clay as a base for

9 the microorganisms to grow.

10 And how do we do it on our farm?

11 The of compost teas with worm casting fishing

12 motions, no synthetic micro-nutrients or

13 anything like that. We capture and

14 recirculate the water.

15 The bottom line, for an area like

16 us where water is $2100 an acre foot, and land

17 is in excess of $100,000 per acre, yet the

18 community of San Diego is saying, We don't

19 want to buy food from Fresno, we want to buy

20 it from our community.

21 This is a matter of survival for

22 our type of agriculture. It's extremely
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1 efficient, up to 90 percent more water

2 efficient. Land of agriculture is at an

3 all-time high, and with this form of

4 agriculture, you can reduce your footprint and

5 be profitable with only a few acres. We can

6 convert parking lots, warehouses, reclaim

7 industrial land for organics, roof tops and so

8 forth.

9 The bottom line is, there's a

10 misunderstanding of what the term

11 hydro-organics, hydroponics means, and it

12 shouldn't -- that misunderstanding should not

13 disclaim us from all. We believe the pillars

14 of the organic industry is microorganisms,

15 organic matter, sustainability, and a crop,

16 and we bring all those four pillars to the

17 organic community.

18 And I'd like to throw my hat in

19 the ring, try to be a member of the Board to

20 bring light to the organic industry of what

21 soilless agriculture is defined within keeping

22 of the highest standards of the National
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1 Organic Program. Thank you.

2 CHAIR STONE: Good. Thank you

3 very much.

4 Karen, I've seen you follow this

5 act before, so -- and Urvashi Rangan is next,

6 on deck.

7 MS. MITCHELL-ARCHIPLEY: Okay.

8 Hi, my name is Karen Archipley, and we're with

9 Archie's Acres, and we're the Veterans

10 Sustainable Agriculture Training Program.

11 And first I want to just wear my

12 hat, I'm a Board member of CCOF, and I wanted

13 to bring to your attention that we have

14 written, on behalf of CCOF, a letter regarding

15 the animal welfare standards, and that a

16 cement porch is not outdoors.

17 So I want to put my other hat on,

18 I'm going to go back to VSAT and what we're

19 doing. And I want to say thank you to the

20 USDA, because we transition active duty as

21 well as veterans into sustainable organic

22 agriculture, and with the new Farm Bill, it
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1 has been great.

2 And I want to say that with San

3 Diego -- my husband pointed out that water is

4 $2100 an acre foot, and that is brutal. And

5 I can tell you that with organic --

6 hydro-organic, we're able to not only survive,

7 but thrive and bring organic food to areas

8 where we can say, give us your worst land.

9 And if you have issues with water,

10 we can come to that with a solution that

11 actually produces up to three to five times

12 the crop and has the tremendous nutrients

13 within it.

14 And so I want to say thank you,

15 make room for veterans that are coming out

16 into organic sustainable ag. Today a veteran

17 can use their VA home loan to buy a farm.

18 That was not true a year ago. So we're really

19 happy with our advocacy.

20 Second, organic sustainable

21 agriculture is now a career track for all

22 people leaving the military, all branches.
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1 And so as you and the organic industry, please

2 make room and support those transitioning

3 veterans.

4 And I want to say thank you to all

5 the companies that do support us, such as

6 Whole Foods, Jimbo's. We've had Farmtek,

7 Agritech, so many of the people that have

8 reached out to not only employ, but to offer

9 that learning concept of what organic

10 agriculture is all about. So thank you for my

11 time.

12 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

13 Thank you for your service for the organic

14 community as well.

15 I have -- Urvashi is up, and Ram,

16 you know, is on deck.

17 Terry, I'm letting Ram get on an

18 airplane, so I'm sticking him in there. Thank

19 you.

20 MS. RANGAN: Great. Thank you.

21 Good afternoon. My name's Urvashi Rangan.

22 I'm Director of Consumer Safety and
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1 Sustainability for Consumer Reports. Our

2 policy and action arm is Consumer's Union.

3 And I'm glad to be here today to be able to

4 make comments.

5 I also want to welcome Charlotte

6 Vallaeys to our team at Consumer Reports, and

7 she'll be making additional comments here

8 today -- tomorrow on behalf of Consumer

9 Reports.

10 So we're glad to be here today.

11 There's so much to talk about, so we can only

12 pick a few things. We're one of the many

13 public interest groups who spend our time

14 educating consumers about what labels mean and

15 what they don't and where they fall short of

16 consumer expectations.

17 And consumers have clearly

18 demonstrated a willingness to pay more for the

19 food that they believe is truly natural, and

20 they will pay more for the organic label to

21 get that. Their confidence in the label is

22 actually paramount to its success. And
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1 without a confident consumer, there isn't a

2 successful organic program.

3 This is why Consumer Reports and

4 so many other public interest groups have

5 remained vigilant in advocating for

6 maintaining the integrity of this label and

7 the process for reviewing materials. And we

8 agree with the many comments made here today

9 by Jay Feldman.

10 We believe that the National

11 Organic Program is not protecting the label as

12 it should. We believe the decision to allow

13 prohibited substances that were granted

14 five-year listings to, by default, remain on

15 the list if two-thirds of the NOSB does not

16 vote them off, is a perversion of the intent

17 of the law.

18 And there will be no incentive for

19 natural alternatives to be developed on a

20 commercial scale, which is already a problem.

21 This is a slap in the face of the organic

22 label, and to consumers who pay more for it.
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1 And while the NOP believes this is

2 an invalid opinion and that our raising

3 awareness of this issue is detrimental to

4 organic, which we've been told, we

5 respectfully disagree. And the authors of the

6 organic law echo that sentiment. In their

7 letter they say,

8 "Therefore, it is with great concern

9 that we learned about the policy change

10 implemented by your agency this past

11 September, which turns the Sunset policy of

12 OFPA on its head."

13 And you can read the rest of that

14 letter, and it's pretty damning in terms of

15 what this interpretation is.

16 You've questioned the

17 qualification, the quality of surveys in the

18 past two consumer surveys, but I'm here to

19 actually present the results of an independent

20 Consumer Reports national research survey

21 that's been released today with many findings

22 of what consumers think about the organic
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1 label.

2 And here's some of the highlights.

3 Regarding the use of artificial ingredients in

4 organics, 71 percent of consumers want as few

5 artificial ingredients as possible approved in

6 organic production.

7 If they are approved, 84 percent

8 say that the use of artificial ingredients

9 should be discontinued if not reviewed after

10 five years. And interestingly, 44 percent of

11 consumers think a five-year time frame is

12 actually too long.

13 We believe that the NOP

14 interpretation of Sunset is wrong. It weakens

15 the organic standards by making it far easier

16 for exempted and prohibited materials, which

17 is what these are, to remain on the National

18 List in perpetuity. This is not in line with

19 consumer expectations, or the authors of the

20 organic law, and it will cause serious damage

21 to the integrity of the organic label.

22 Regarding the use of streptomycin,
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1 while only 66 percent of consumers think that

2 no antibiotics were used on organic fruits and

3 vegetables, 86 percent don't want them used.

4 We believe that you should not extend the

5 period allowed for streptomycin use.

6 Regarding antibiotic use in other

7 places in organic, because we just stumbled on

8 this, 88 percent of consumers believe organics

9 should not allow the use of antibiotics,

10 including at the egg stage, or at day one of

11 life in terms of poultry production.

12 And regarding aquaculture, we do

13 not believe you should be approving materials

14 for aquaculture before you actually have

15 standards. We need a strong organic label

16 where the privilege of granting exemptions for

17 otherwise prohibited substances is made with

18 care and with the intent that they will not

19 remain on in perpetuity.

20 We believe the NOP's reasoning is

21 flawed, and we will continue this fight until

22 it is resolved. Thank you.
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1 (General applause.)

2 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Urvashi.

3 Jay?

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you, Mr.

5 Chair.

6 Hi.

7 MS. RANGAN: Hi.

8 MEMBER FELDMAN: I really want to

9 ask you to give us a little more detail about

10 your study designs and how Consumer Reports

11 and Consumers Union develops a study and the

12 meaningfulness of that relative to the

13 information that's available to a board like

14 this to make informed decisions around

15 consumer preference, consumer expectation,

16 which is a key tenet in the final rule and the

17 operations of this Board.

18 It really pains me sometimes when

19 I hear people dismiss the quality of the data

20 that your organization has historically

21 generated for this -- for the nation. So if

22 you could help us with that, I would really
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1 appreciate it. Thanks.

2 MS. RANGAN: Yeah. Thank you,

3 Jay. In fact, our national survey center

4 actually runs some of the largest surveys --

5 next to the census, we're the largest

6 independent group actually running surveys out

7 in the nation.

8 And there is a science behind

9 surveys. And, in fact, I think it would be

10 really beneficial, because of some of the

11 frankly ludicrous claims made in these meeting

12 rooms about the preposterousness of consumer

13 survey data made by consumers is ridiculous.

14 There is a science behind it, you can do them

15 well, and you can do them not well.

16 And we have an entire department

17 filled with PhDs that actually work to create

18 these questions and craft them. It's really

19 important how you craft them, how you craft

20 the questions, that they are not leading. We

21 have scientists working on just that. That's

22 their full-time job and we have an entire shop
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1 of them.

2 In addition to that, the way we

3 administer those surveys matter, and it

4 matters how they're administered. There's

5 telephone polls, there's online polls. You

6 have to have enough people to get a

7 statistically representative sample, and you

8 have to have the demographic cross-section so

9 that you know that those are nationally

10 representative.

11 These are just some examples of

12 all of the different scientific criteria that

13 we use before we even put a survey out into

14 the field. The results of those surveys are

15 bonafide, they are statistically significant,

16 we stand behind them, our entire organization

17 does.

18 And I think it might be really

19 beneficial at some point for this group -- I'd

20 be happy to bring on any one of our staff

21 members to make a presentation to you about

22 what makes for a scientifically sound survey,
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1 and we'd be very happy to bring that to you.

2 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Thank

3 you very much.

4 MS. RANGAN: Thank you.

5 (General applause.)

6 CHAIR STONE: So Ram is up, and if

7 you will state your name for the record, maybe

8 they'll understand why I didn't state your

9 name.

10 And Terry Shistar's on deck.

11 MR. BALASUBRAMANIAN: Thank you

12 very much for the opportunity, Mr. Chairman.

13 I am Ram; my full name is Ramkrishnan

14 Balasubramanian, since Mac asked about it.

15 I'm the QCS Chief Operating Officer. QCS is

16 one of the accredited certifiers based in

17 Gainesville, Florida. We're also accredited

18 to do organic aquaculture under the European

19 Union and Canada.

20 We certified several aquaculture

21 and aquaponic operations, and, in fact, we are

22 the only US-based certification body to do
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1 GlobalGap food safety for aquaculture.

2 Needless to say, I'm here to talk about

3 aquaculture.

4 The Board is moving in the right

5 direction, and we fully support the efforts to

6 include the materials as a part of the

7 standards. That is always the question,

8 whether it is wise for the NOSB to recommend

9 materials when the standards are not

10 finalized.

11 We think it is a wise move to

12 include, based on the recommended aquaculture

13 standards. This will enable the industry to

14 start when the standards are out and don't

15 have to wait on these materials.

16 Should there be changes in the

17 final rule, the NOP can always send the

18 materials back to the committee, and just

19 because the NOSB approves these materials does

20 not mean the NOP has to adopt them. I'm

21 confident, if the materials recommended are

22 not consistent with the final rule, the NOP
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1 will not include these materials and send it

2 back to the NOSB.

3 We have waited painfully long for

4 these standards to come out. In 2003, QCS

5 used to certify under the USDA livestock

6 standards. The USDA permitted this at that

7 time. Two operations, one in Permian, Texas

8 and one in Florida, both growing shrimp were

9 certified to the USDA organic standards.

10 Around 2005 both operations were

11 voluntarily requested to surrender their

12 certificates, and the reason is, if the USDA

13 allowed the fish to be certified under the

14 livestock standards, hardly two or three

15 species would ever be certified as organic.

16 And some species, such as salmon, could never

17 be certified.

18 The operator understand, and the

19 understanding at that time is the USDA is

20 going to come back with a rule as soon as

21 possible. Ten -Twelve years have passed.

22 The rules are still not out there.
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1 The operator has been bankrupt.

2 These are US-based operations. They're

3 bankrupt because they couldn't compete against

4 some of the ceremonial standards. To give an

5 example, some of the ceremonial standards out

6 there, even today, allows one-third of the

7 animal's aquatic lifetime to be under

8 non-organic management.

9 If you take shrimp, 120 days is

10 the average days you're supposed to be

11 harvesting it. Thirty days can be under

12 non-organic management, plus can be fed with

13 terrestrial animal byproducts. So these

14 operations could not compete; subsequently

15 went bankrupt.

16 Currently operations that are

17 certified to other national-international

18 organic standards can produce their organic

19 product as organic. In doing comparison

20 against other standards, we believe the

21 standards recommended by NOSB is much better.

22 And given all the circumstances,
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1 we strongly urge the Board members to move

2 forward in including these materials. It is

3 very delightful to hear your stating that

4 there'll be proposed aquaculture rules out by

5 the end of the year. We support all the

6 materials petitioned to be awarded in favor of

7 being included in the final standards.

8 One comment about carbon dioxide

9 that has been petitioned. QCS is very much

10 aware it is a synthetic carbon dioxide.

11 Carbon dioxide in the petition has dual

12 purpose, digestive pH and also as a nutrient.

13 Two places this material, carbon

14 dioxide, is used. To produce microalgae to

15 feed the aquatic animals. Almost all

16 commercially cultivated aquatic species

17 consumes microalgae as a feed during their

18 juvenile stage. It'll be used if the final

19 rule requires integrated multitrophic

20 aquaculture.

21 So the question is, given the fact

22 that carbon dioxide can also be a macro
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1 nutrient, can aquatic plant producers can live

2 with all that. The answer is maybe. You can

3 use aeration, you can grow in large ponds and

4 perhaps use calcium bicarbonate for pH

5 adjustment, but there are severe economic

6 consequences.

7 That process has not been

8 standardized. The cost of production is going

9 to go up and it's almost impossible to do it

10 with only carbon dioxide. Thank you.

11 Questions?

12 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Ram.

13 Jay?

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, I'll defer

15 if anybody else has questions.

16 (No response.)

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. I had

18 a couple of questions about these materials.

19 So are you suggesting that the CO2 is used as

20 a nutrient source?

21 MR. BALASUBRAMANIAN: All right.

22 Sorry.
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1 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. And what

2 about the chlorine. The chlorine -- do you

3 use it in culture water as well as for

4 cleaning --

5 MR. BALASUBRAMANIAN: Culture

6 water has to be sanitized for grow in

7 pathogens, but it is no different than

8 treating any other water treatments, like we

9 do in processing plants that needs to treated.

10 That's all. It has no other effect other than

11 sanitation in culture water.

12 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

13 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Ram.

14 Oh, I'm sorry. Jean?

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: My apologies.

16 I'm trying to keep track of the public

17 comments from the list that we have, and I

18 don't see the name of the organization that

19 you're with, Ram. If you could help me --

20 MR. BALASUBRAMANIAN: Quality

21 Certification Services. If you know Marty,

22 I'm with Marty.
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1 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So -- oh,

2 okay. All right. Great. Thank you.

3 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thanks, Ram.

4 MR. BALASUBRAMANIAN: Thank you.

5 CHAIR STONE: You can get your

6 plane.

7 Terry Shistar, and Sharon Donovan

8 is on deck.

9 (Pause.)

10 DR. SHISTAR: Okay.

11 CHAIR STONE: Okay?

12 DR. SHISTAR: Okay. My name is

13 Terry Shistar, and I'm on the Board of

14 Directors of Beyond Pesticides. And these

15 slides should be advancing automatically.

16 (Pause.)

17 DR. SHISTAR: Beyond Pesticides

18 has a long history of involvement with organic

19 production. Our roots are in the problems of

20 agriculture from poisoning of farmer workers

21 to contaminated food, soil, air and water.

22 We are a committed organic
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1 production, and the organic model in

2 non-production situations as a solution to

3 pollution. On this slide you can see some of

4 our present and former board members.

5 I want to talk about precedence,

6 particularly about setting bad precedence,

7 which seems to be happening here now. The

8 most significant bad precedent that is being

9 set at this meeting is the overthrow of a

10 democratic process for establishing organic

11 policy by an agency with a history of

12 antagonism towards organic production.

13 It was no accident that the NOSB

14 was given powers beyond those of the usual

15 FACA board. Until now, the Board has provided

16 direction to the organic program from the

17 organic community as a whole. I'm afraid that

18 the future of the organic label depends on

19 your finding a way to restore democratic

20 control. Compared to that big issue, the

21 other bad precedence are relatively minor.

22 Listing aquaculture materials
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1 without having an understanding of the

2 diversity of aquaculture systems or

3 regulations in place defining organic

4 practices in aquaculture would be a terrible

5 precedent.

6 The petitions for aquaculture

7 materials request the approval of a whole slew

8 of synthetic materials for use on a routine

9 basis. This is a bad precedent on a different

10 scale than that of approval of formic acid in

11 aquaculture.

12 The fact that the NOP passed on to

13 the NOSB a petition for vinasse that redefined

14 the material, lumping together synthetic and

15 non-synthetic forms together under one name

16 was a bad precedent from a materials review.

17 Much confusion could have been

18 avoided if the NOP had recognized that the

19 petitioner was petitioning a mixture of

20 formulations that was turned down by MROs

21 because of the synthetic additives. The NOP

22 should have sent the petition back to the
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1 petitioner as inappropriate for NOSB

2 consideration.

3 We support efforts to clarify the

4 roles of the NOSB and MROs with respect to

5 generic substances and formulated materials or

6 mixtures.

7 With respect to another crops

8 material, laminarin, another bad precedent is

9 in the works. The manufacture of laminarin

10 involves the addition of sulfuric acid, which

11 is neutralized by the addition by the sodium

12 hydroxide, thus creating a net addition of

13 sodium sulfate.

14 The crops subcommittee ignores the

15 sodium sulfate, treating the neutralization as

16 a removal step. That is bad -- it would be a

17 bad precedent to endorse that. It would also

18 be a bad precedent to endorse OMRI's position

19 that the sodium sulfate, which it acknowledges

20 must be reviewed, is acceptable because it is

21 a list for inert. We are moving away from

22 giving "inert" special status.
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1 The theory put forth by the

2 handling committee that the boiler chemical

3 PGME is not required to be on the National

4 List because it makes no contact with organic

5 products would establish another bad

6 precedent. OFPA makes it clear that the use

7 of the material, not the contact with the

8 food, determines the need for its listing.

9 This is supported by the fact that

10 the NOSB must consider other factors like

11 essentiality and the probability of

12 environmental contamination during

13 manufacturer use, misuse or disposal that

14 apply regardless of food contact.

15 Too big to fail is bad economic

16 policy and that's bad organic policy. We urge

17 you to correct past bad precedents and to

18 avoid making the same mistakes with

19 aquaculture.

20 Well, you know what I was going to

21 say about Sunset.

22 (General applause.)
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1 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Terry.

2 That was an effective presentation.

3 Oh, Calvin?

4 SECRETARY WALKER: Dr. Shistar,

5 could you tell me what is your views on

6 Sunset?

7 DR. SHISTAR: Well, what I was

8 going to say is we all know what Sunset means.

9 It means that the exemption goes away unless,

10 upon thorough reconsideration, it is voted to

11 stay.

12 We urge you to ensure that every

13 substance on the National List receive

14 rigorous review before relisting by attaching

15 an annotation for a five-year expiration date

16 to every petition material, and approving our

17 petitions for annotation with an expiration

18 date of those substances currently in Sunset

19 review.

20 And besides that, you know, I've

21 submitted other comments.

22 CHAIR STONE: Good. Thank you,
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1 Terry. Thank you very much.

2 Sharon Donovan is up, and Melody

3 Meyer on deck.

4 (Pause.)

5 MS. DONOVAN: Good afternoon. My

6 name is Sharon Donovan. I'm from Des Moines,

7 Iowa, and I represent Occupy the World Food

8 Prize. Our goal is to encourage the world

9 food prize to give fair and balanced

10 representation to sustainable and organic

11 agriculture. We are the people's answer to

12 the world food prize and its big ad program to

13 replace nature with chemicals.

14 It was no surprise to us that big

15 ag would use their influence that resulted in

16 the decision by the USDA, supported by the

17 Organic Trade Association, to engineer the

18 downgrade of organic standards.

19 This alarming reversal of the

20 Congressionally mandated directive is a

21 shocking misuse of power. But it is much

22 more, and let me make this very clear. It is
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1 a movement by corporate interests to control

2 food policy. The lowering of organic

3 standards in the US is just one part of a

4 bigger picture.

5 There are more examples. The

6 World Food Prize winners are not announced at

7 the Department of Agriculture. They are

8 announced by the US Secretary of State,

9 because big ag directs our foreign food

10 policy, working alongside the Rockefeller

11 Foundation and the Ford Foundation, influenced

12 by our old friend, Harry Kissinger, who is

13 reported to have said, If you control the

14 food, you control the people.

15 Corporations like Monsanto and

16 Syngenta, DuPont and their co-conspirators,

17 manipulate our foreign policy to serve their

18 profit-driven agenda to control seeds, lands

19 and market.

20 In 1999 when a Monsanto vice

21 president was asked what his company's goal is

22 for the 21st Century, he's reported to reply,
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1 Control all seeds in the world. When our

2 French scientist, Professor Gilles Seralini,

3 and his team published his rat study in the

4 Food and Chemical Toxicology Journal, it was

5 withdrawn shortly after a Monsanto lobbyist

6 joined the Journal's editorial board.

7 Paul Bremmer, perhaps you remember

8 him, and big ag pushed through the 100 orders

9 to transfer Iraq's economy into private US

10 hands. Order 81 stands out. It forced Iraq's

11 farmers to plant only what was called

12 "protected crop varieties". Thus, one of the

13 world's oldest agricultural traditions was

14 destroyed.

15 Now, Iraqis are obliged to

16 purchase seeds, fertilizers, pesticides,

17 herbicides to feed their people. The seeds of

18 course are GMOs. Do you see a pattern here?

19 Today in our backyard corporate

20 profit drives the motive to lower organic

21 standards through cover up, intimidation and

22 lies. This is much more than a fight for what
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1 is in our food. This is a fight against

2 dominance and greed. We all know this, but

3 Occupy wants it on the record.

4 Occupy appeals to you to please

5 stand strong. Please respect the integrity of

6 organic foods. Reject Secretary Vilsack and

7 his political degradation of organic

8 standards, and the power hungry, profit-driven

9 corporate corporations would have given us

10 each an orange, PCBs, VDT, GMOs and now what

11 could become a growing list of synthetic

12 materials added to our own organic foods.

13 Thank you.

14 (General applause.)

15 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Thank

16 you for being here. Thank you very much.

17 Melody Meyer is up, and Michael

18 Sligh is on deck. Melody?

19 MS. MEYER: Thank you. It's a

20 pleasure to be here. I want to thank the

21 Board for all your work and dedication.

22 I'm Melody Meyer from UNFI, and I
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1 want to talk about something completely

2 different. I want to bring forward a new

3 emerging technology called synthetic biology

4 that is quite possibly in the organic food

5 supply and the organic production right now,

6 and urge this Board and NOP to consider

7 looking at it and reviewing it.

8 It's synthetic biology, and I

9 won't go into the definition, you know, a lot,

10 but it's sometimes called syn-bio or

11 synthetically modified organism, and it's an

12 extreme form of GMO. It's the next step.

13 And it's basically taking DNA

14 strands, putting them together to create a

15 separate entity that's never been alive on the

16 planet; it's a new entity, injecting that into

17 algaes or bacteria or yeasts and growing

18 things like synthetic vanilla.

19 These synthetic vanilla is

20 actually on the market now and being marketed

21 to companies in Expo East. When I was there,

22 there were companies out there looking to get
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1 this into the supply, call it natural. Should

2 it be organic? I don't think so.

3 It's thoroughly untested, it's

4 unregulated, it's unlabeled, just like GMOs.

5 So there's the possibility that this could be

6 entering the food supply now, the organic food

7 supply without us knowing it, and we may be in

8 a catch-22 where we have to catch up with this

9 emerging technology.

10 The research and development is

11 huge, it's growing by 41 percent a year. It's

12 estimated to be $16.7 billion in 2018. This

13 is something that I believe that the Board and

14 NOP should pay attention to.

15 The focus has been on chemicals

16 and fuels, but now they're targeting tropic

17 commodities and we really don't know the

18 effects that it will have on the environment

19 if these algaes and use that exist everywhere,

20 if there's biocontamination. The effects, the

21 economic effects to small organic growers in

22 subtropic regions is profound, and quite
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1 frankly the effects of our consumer group, if

2 this is in organic items will be also

3 profound.

4 So I want to urge this Board and

5 the NOP to take a look at this. And

6 specifically with flavors because synthetic

7 vanilla it out there and there are many more

8 products coming.

9 So there's more information in my

10 written comments. I'll be emailing those to

11 you, and there's resources at the bottom of

12 that if you have any questions. I have other

13 resources. I'm certainly not an expert on

14 this, but I know enough that it's scary.

15 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you,

17 Melody. Why would you think it would be in

18 organic food now when we require non-GMO

19 declarations and you say it's a GMO, so how

20 could they possibly give a non-GMO

21 declaration?

22 MS. MEYER: It's not --
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: And along --

2 also, why wouldn't our current policy against

3 GMOs apply to this, that we would have to do

4 a separate looking into it?

5 MS. MEYER: The way I understand

6 it is, because of the fermentation process

7 that goes on with the algaes, it's not

8 considered a GMO product. And there aren't

9 any labels or -- well, there's no way to

10 identify it.

11 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

12 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you for

13 your testimony. Here's the things I'd like

14 your advice on, currently -- in the past when

15 someone like yourself or the environmental

16 community came to this Board and said, There's

17 a problem you're not addressing -- I'll give

18 you the example of nanotechnology -- the Board

19 took that information, studied it, did a

20 discussion document and put it on its work

21 plan, it was voted on by the Board.

22 We have -- you've heard today
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1 obviously that the whole policy has changed.

2 The Board does not control its work plan.

3 This is an issue that environmental groups

4 have approached me on.

5 What would be your suggestion to

6 this Board as to what it should do, and how

7 could it collaborate with industry to make

8 this an issue that in effect compels the USDA

9 to bring this to the NOSB? Do you have any

10 thoughts on that?

11 MS. MEYER: Well, I'm here

12 speaking to the NOP as well so that they hear

13 this message and it can come down to the NOSB

14 as a priority.

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay.

16 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank

17 you for bringing that to our attention.

18 Calvin?

19 SECRETARY WALKER: Did I hear you

20 right, that you represent Occupy? Is that an

21 environmental group? Could you explain?

22 MS. MEYER: No, I'm just an
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1 interested citizen in this.

2 MALE VOICE: UNFI.

3 SECRETARY WALKER: Oh, okay. I

4 thought I heard Jay said environmental group,

5 and it's always good to see other groups. So

6 I thought he had mentioned that you were an

7 environmentalist.

8 MALE VOICE: No.

9 SECRETARY WALKER: Sorry.

10 MS. MEYER: Thank you.

11 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Melody.

12 Michael Sligh is on deck and Jake

13 -- I mean Michael is up and Jake's on deck.

14 MR. SLIGH: Well, Southerners do

15 get five minutes. Right?

16 CHAIR STONE: Well, it's going to

17 be four, but it's going to sound like five.

18 (General laughter.)

19 MR. SLIGH: And many thanks to the

20 Board and the NOP for all their service to the

21 organic community. As a native son of the

22 Alamo, I'm honored to have this event here.
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1 We fully support the need for ongoing USDA

2 organic policy advisors.

3 I'm here both as a voice from the

4 past, as well as in defense of the future. As

5 one of the commercial scale organic farmers

6 back in the 1970s, we understood that organic

7 could not grow to its real potential unless we

8 could protect the consumer trust by creating

9 greater consistency across state and national

10 lines.

11 However, we also knew it would

12 require a program that was fully defensible

13 and could meet the ongoing expectations of our

14 community. It took three tries to pass

15 federal legislation. By then polls were

16 already showing 84 percent of the consumers

17 wanted to buy organic food and over half were

18 willing to pay more.

19 This is still the case, and supply

20 still lags behind demand. How we as a

21 community and you as our representatives

22 address this challenge will determine the
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1 future integrity and viability of organics.

2 And I may be an old rat at the

3 barn, but I think it's important for us to

4 step back right now and take stock of how we

5 had gotten here and whether we are going in

6 the right path now. This is our legacy, and

7 our responsibility to pursue the real promise

8 of organic. It is more than what we've

9 managed to codify so far. And it's our job to

10 build upon that solid foundation.

11 However, it's important to realize

12 the context of OFPA and why it was written

13 exactly as it was. We must admit that this

14 was a shotgun marriage from the very

15 beginning, one that has required ongoing

16 marriage counseling with every single Board,

17 with every single administration regardless of

18 party.

19 In order for the OFPA to pass and

20 gain community support, it was critical to

21 build in the power-sharing into the law and

22 maximize the community roles. The
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1 Congressional intent was to severely limit

2 USDA discretion. USDA was not to reinvent the

3 wheel. This was written as a partnership.

4 This Act did break new ground for

5 the federal government and requires ongoing

6 unique regulatory scheme. The NOSB has always

7 been more than a regular FACA, FACA does not

8 trump the OFPA. We would not be here today if

9 that was not the case.

10 It is important to remember that

11 we're all here as volunteers. We don't work

12 for USDA, we're not employees. Your job is to

13 cooperate, to consult, to give your best

14 advice to the Secretary, to listen to the will

15 of the community and to be faithful stewards

16 of the spirit and the letter of the law.

17 This is not about any of us that

18 are here today. This is not even personal.

19 This is about ensuring the institutional

20 balance of powers and checks and balances that

21 were envisioned in the statute. We cannot

22 afford ongoing polarization. We do so at our
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1 peril.

2 No matter now efficient, no matter

3 how well intended, major changes without

4 public comment and without public Board

5 deliberations is a breakdown of our

6 partnership. For all of us who have given the

7 bloom of our youth to this, we must rise to

8 protect this institutional partnership.

9 I fully support the recent letter

10 by the co-authors of the law clarifying the

11 Sunset. We know that making sausage in public

12 is not always pretty; it is messy. But if

13 done right, it can fry up something tasty.

14 We should not change the course

15 without the consultative due process. USDA

16 should not unilaterally set the scope of the

17 goals. This kind of change in the wrong hands

18 could cause much mischief.

19 It's not too late to get it right,

20 if we can honor where we came from, share the

21 power, and keep the process open. It is our

22 responsibility to the future. Thank you.
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1 (General applause.)

2 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Michael.

3 Colehour?

4 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you,

5 Michael, for your comments. I want to ask you

6 if you can get a teeny bit specific from your

7 history with this and your opinions in terms

8 of -- I mean I guess I'll ask it this way,

9 which is like you said, OFPA -- we aren't a

10 basic typical FACA.

11 MR. SLIGH: Right.

12 MEMBER BONDERA: And I think that

13 we all can recognize that. But like the

14 program has identified, there has to be some

15 kind of bottom line, there has to be

16 somewhere. And my question I think would be,

17 how practically, logistically can the NOSB be

18 meeting its higher standards than a regular

19 FACA in practice?

20 What would be added or done? I

21 think the good relationships and the

22 collaborative work is a general good concept,
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1 but what could be put into action that would

2 differentiate or meet the statute better?

3 MR. SLIGH: Well, I mean I think,

4 you know, the term partnership is what we have

5 always operated on. And when I was in your

6 seat, we would collaborate in developing the

7 agenda, we would hear the Department's needs

8 and what their constraints were, we would

9 balance that against the needs of the

10 community and come to a reasonable agreement

11 on how to propose joint work moving forward.

12 Unilateral decision making is not

13 going to work with a hyper-participatory

14 community. We have to engage it robustly.

15 And you as a Board need to do your part to

16 ensure that you're bringing forward what you

17 think is the most important priorities that

18 have to be addressed. But you also have to

19 carefully listen to the Department as to what

20 their constraints are.

21 But without that, what we end up

22 with is either failing to meet the demand of
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1 the community, or leaving USDA in a lurch.

2 And so it's the middle ground, the

3 partnership, the dialogue that got us here.

4 That was really -- you know, in the beginning

5 we had no staff, we had no budget, but we had

6 a mandate. And if we had of said, Gee, we

7 don't have a budget and we don't have a staff,

8 I guess we can't do anything, we wouldn't be

9 here today.

10 So you -- even though you have to

11 recognize the constraints of the Department,

12 your vision and your mandate has to be bigger

13 when what the current

14 capacity is, and continue to drive that

15 process forward.

16 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much,

17 Michael.

18 MR. SLIGH: Sure.

19 CHAIR STONE: Well stated.

20 Jake Lewin is up and JoAnn

21 Baumgartner is on deck.

22 (Pause.)
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1 CHAIR STONE: Jake?

2 (No response.)

3 CHAIR STONE: I saw him in the

4 back a minute ago. JoAnn, if you don't mind

5 to go ahead, and we'll plug Jake back in in a

6 minute.

7 After JoAnn will be Lauren

8 Bernick. And please correct your

9 pronunciation if I get it wrong.

10 (Pause.)

11 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Oh, oh, for a

12 minute -- hi, I'm JoAnn Baumgartner with the

13 Wild Farm Alliance. We promote healthy viable

14 agriculture that protects and restores wild

15 nature.

16 This winter the NOP webpage

17 declared in their first bullet that organic

18 farms and processors preserved natural

19 resources and biodiversity. This is good.

20 It's also good to hear that the NOP is

21 collaborating so closely with the NRCS.

22 But there are a few troubling
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1 issues the NOSB can engage in by following

2 through on the biodiversity discussion

3 document that was addressed in the fall 2012

4 NOSB meeting by then Chair Barry Flamm.

5 A decade after the NOP regulations

6 were created, we are just now anticipating

7 that guidance will be published soon that will

8 equally address biodiversity and natural

9 resources, and the title and the intent.

10 But the NOP has left biodiversity

11 out of their accreditation check lists you use

12 to accreditate certifiers. If biodiversity

13 and natural resources are not treated equally,

14 a misunderstanding will arise. Biodiversity

15 is so much more than natural resources.

16 It's conserving the diversity of

17 all life and ecological processes, much more

18 than the short list of natural resources that

19 humans use that's part of the 205.200

20 standards, soil, water, wetlands, lowlands,

21 and wildlife.

22 Biodiversity conservation is in
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1 the rule twice, it's in the preamble and it's

2 defined by the NOSB. Organic production

3 definition includes conserving biodiversity,

4 the preamble explains that that use of the

5 word "conserve" means that a producer must

6 initiate practices to support biodiversity,

7 and compliance is required, for perennial

8 systems biodiversity is also required.

9 While it's important that the USDA

10 and NRCS is now participating with the NOP,

11 the NOP reach encompasses the biodiversity

12 issue broader than NRCS, such as those under

13 US Fish and Wildlife Service and EPA.

14 Another issue that NOSB was

15 addressing in the fall 2012 biodiversity

16 discussion document was high conservation

17 value areas. These are natural habitats that

18 have been identified as having outstanding

19 importance due to their environmental,

20 biodiversity or landscape values.

21 The NOP three-year waiting period

22 for land with pesticides incentivizes farmers
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1 to convert pesticide-free high conservation

2 value areas to organic production because they

3 can do it quickly. And this has to change.

4 Either this issue needs to be put into

5 guidance, or the NOP should make an

6 interpretation on the intent of the rule, put

7 it out for public comment and do some rule

8 making.

9 If the NOP Sunset process is not

10 changed back to what it was, material that was

11 approved before biodiversity impacts were

12 considered in the review process, might stay

13 on the list indefinitely.

14 The NOP should remove open ocean

15 nets in facilities from the proposed

16 aquaculture standard, because pollution and

17 disease, fish escapes, habitat damage

18 occurring will never allow them to be able to

19 meet the requirements to conserve by diversity

20 and maintain or improve water quality and

21 wildlife.

22 I want to share some materials
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1 we're developing with the International

2 Organic Inspectors Association when training

3 inspectors, like this slide here. And also we

4 just published a document on co-managing food

5 safety and conservation.

6 If the Board has any questions

7 about the fall 2012 NOSB biodiversity

8 document, I'd be happy to answer them. Thank

9 you.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, JoAnn.

11 (General applause.)

12 CHAIR STONE: Jay --

13 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you, JoAnn.

14 Okay. So we heard that NOP is working on the

15 release of policy, so that's a good thing.

16 Right?

17 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Yes, that's

18 great.

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. If you're

20 speaking directly to them, I guess you have an

21 opportunity to do that, what are the critical

22 issues -- are there any other critical issues
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1 that you didn't mention in your presentation

2 that need to be --

3 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Yes, well, back

4 in 2009 the NOSB made a comprehensive

5 recommendation on this issue, and they said

6 that training needs to occur, not just with

7 inspectors, but also with farmers.

8 And working with the IOIA, we did

9 a survey this winter where we talked to over

10 50 organic inspectors and certification

11 reviewers about conservation. And while

12 three-quarters of them said that they were

13 addressing some aspect, only about a third of

14 them were addressing it at any deep level.

15 And they told us that a really big

16 problem was only about 60 percent of the

17 farmers even know what conservation is. So

18 that's a big problem. And they also said that

19 -- or 94 percent of these inspectors and

20 certification reviewers said that they'd like

21 more training materials and training.

22 So that's a big issue, and I hope
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1 somehow either the NOSB and NOP work together

2 on this issue of high conservation value areas

3 and/or we can help work with that, or put a

4 team together. It's a critical issue. It has

5 to be addressed. It's not going away.

6 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, JoAnn.

7 Thank you very much for being here.

8 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Thank you.

9 CHAIR STONE: Being at every --

10 I'm sorry, Jean. I forgot you.

11 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Just a quick

12 comment and actually it tied in with a

13 question to Miles. I think this is a very

14 timely presentation and I particularly

15 appreciated it, having been a professor of

16 environmental studies and natural resources

17 for many years.

18 And I'm wondering, Miles, if this

19 is an opportunity first to fold this critical

20 element of what should be in the OCPs and have

21 us working on in the few years since Barry

22 Flamm brought this to us, fold it into the
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1 NRCS work that we will be doing on the -- what

2 are those called, our accreditation

3 subcommittee, because it fits in with the soil

4 conservation aspects that we'll be looking at,

5 even though it adds a different nuance. I

6 think it enriches that kind of work that we

7 could be involved in.

8 MR. McEVOY: Yes, it's something

9 we can look into. I think what JoAnn was

10 saying was about the accreditation component

11 on the accreditation audit reports, which is,

12 you know, different than what we were looking

13 at for the conservation plans. But I don't

14 see any reason why we couldn't look at this as

15 well during that review.

16 MS. BAUMGARTNER: If I could just

17 add to that, the high conservation value areas

18 is directly related to the ATL that Sarah

19 Brown talked about, the highly erodible lands.

20 It's those sensitive areas that shouldn't be

21 farmed, and ATL is part of that. So the other

22 high value conservation areas could be wrapped
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1 into this whole discussion.

2 CHAIR STONE: Good. Thank you.

3 So, members of the committee, kind of put that

4 together. Thank you very much.

5 So, Jake, we'll get you in back in

6 order, and, Lauren, we apologize for the

7 inconvenience.

8 MR. LEWIN: All right. Hi

9 everyone. Thank you very much for your

10 service. My name is Jake Lewin. I'm the

11 president of CCOF certification services.

12 We're the largest accredited certifier to the

13 National Organic Program.

14 We work with a really large

15 variety of operations, a really huge slough of

16 them, and that includes 1400 operations that

17 are classified below the USDA small farm

18 definition, and a number of larger operations.

19 We're currently performing about 4,000

20 inspections a year, and about 400 of those are

21 in retailers, retailer who seek certification

22 voluntarily.
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1 So I want to talk to you a little

2 bit about the CACC subcommittee proposal on

3 retail certification. We recognize the

4 complexities of this. In fact, we certified

5 the first retailer ever as far as we know in

6 1997. I'm sure another certifier will correct

7 me if I'm wrong.

8 And, you know, today we work with

9 about seven different retailers, which from

10 our perspective is actually a lot. And we

11 recognize the value of this, the value of

12 retail certification and the current -- and we

13 also recognize the value that the current

14 exemptions, thumb certification that is

15 important I think to our marketplace.

16 But we really think there needs to

17 be a difference between what an exempt

18 retailer and a certified retailer can do. And

19 we really think that 18,000 operations in the

20 US alone have invested a lot to get certified.

21 And that -- we're kind of thinking

22 this proposal, the allowance for a
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1 non-certified retailer to utilize the USDA

2 seal and make certified organic claims of

3 their own making within their store is really

4 -- kind of degrades all the effort and all the

5 certification that's happened before then.

6 And so we think there could be a

7 better way to go with this, which is to limit

8 the use of the USDA seal, which in every other

9 area of the rule isn't allowed, and the term

10 "certified organic", every other area of the

11 rule, the basis of certification is that -- is

12 the right that certification conveys. So we

13 think that would be a better approach in that

14 case. And we'd be happy to provide more

15 information.

16 In terms of GMOs, we think the

17 seed purity is really, really important. We

18 think the phase-in with the five- and ten-year

19 implementation is workable, and we see this as

20 a really critical baseline for addressing

21 this.

22 CCOF, within the period residue
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1 testing regime, will be doing increasing GMO

2 testing. And I think sometimes there's a

3 misunderstanding that GMO contamination is

4 somehow okay because there's not some kind of

5 level like there is for the unavoidable

6 residual environmental contaminants, and in

7 any case where a residue of GMOs is found, we

8 would always investigate and it's always taken

9 seriously within certification.

10 And in the coming year, you know,

11 we looked -- we're going to do more testing

12 and then we're going to be looking at a .9

13 percent as kind of a baseline where we're

14 going to take things more seriously, and as

15 kind of what we understand to be the, for lack

16 of a better word, industry benchmark.

17 So we're going to be looking at

18 that very closely. We really look forward to

19 coming back with more information about how

20 these things go. In the meanwhile, we really

21 do need to see purity as that core piece at

22 the very beginning from which, after that,
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1 additional measures can be taken to help

2 ensure that the commodities are not

3 contaminated.

4 So anyway, really appreciate all

5 the work you guys do, and we'd welcome any

6 questions.

7 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jake. I

8 have one, seeing no hands. So if product that

9 is processed, based certified organic, but if

10 GMO contamination shows up in the marketplace,

11 what kind of anecdotal stories do you have, or

12 one story if you will. I mean what happens to

13 that product, I mean is it -- does it change

14 the value or the salability of the product?

15 MR. LEWIN: I mean I didn't value

16 its salability or, you know, tremendously

17 affected by who is the buyer and the seller

18 and what their requirements are. I can -- but

19 there's a lot of evidence, I think a lot of

20 people talked to evidence of what affects

21 salability.

22 I know that at a compliance level
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1 an incidence of contamination of really any

2 kind within periodic residues would result in

3 a need to figure out why that is there and to

4 do work to address it.

5 CHAIR STONE: Nick?

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, Jake, what

7 protocols are you using for your GMO sampling,

8 and are you looking at -- how do you choose

9 which products you are going to sample and at

10 what point you're going to sample those?

11 MR. LEWIN: Well --

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Or inputs, the

13 products or inputs --

14 MR. LEWIN: Well, I'll tell you

15 what we really like about the periodic residue

16 rule. It's really well written, which is it

17 gives broad discretion for how to apply these

18 things in the best way possible.

19 Right now we are -- we're looking

20 at all the available testing methodologies

21 honestly, and we'll probably use different

22 things in different settings, and we'll likely
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1 do some laboratory testing and some strip

2 testing and we're looking at the existing

3 protocols that are out there in terms of other

4 non-GMO programs and looking at what they

5 believe to be effective and then we'll be just

6 using that as guideposts for how we will move

7 forward.

8 The kind of direction that I gave

9 internally was, well, let's do this where it

10 actually could be found. Right. We're not

11 going to test a commodity for which it is

12 pointless. But we might look at different

13 points in the supply chain, not just at crops.

14 I think it's pretty important.

15 CHAIR STONE: Thanks, Jake.

16 MR. LEWIN: Yes, thank you very

17 much.

18 CHAIR STONE: Lauren Bernick,

19 thank you for your patience. And Lisa Bunin

20 is on deck.

21 MS. BERNICK: Hi. I'm speaking

22 about aquaculture animals, something we've
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1 already touched on. My name is Lauren

2 Bernick. I'm a consumer, a mother, author of

3 the blog, My Non-Toxic Life, and I'm from

4 Texas. Welcome to Texas.

5 I'm a member of the Cornucopia

6 Institute. I'm here today as a citizen

7 lobbyist because -- I volunteered to present

8 testimony because I am very concerned about

9 the integrity of organic foods.

10 Since switching my family to 100

11 percent organic non-GMO foods two years ago,

12 we've all seen vast improvements in our

13 health. So I take it very seriously. I take

14 it as a personal affront when anyone tries to

15 undermine that little logo right there. It,

16 to me, has come to mean the last bastion of

17 safe food that I can feed my family.

18 No regulations have been

19 established for aquatic animal or plant

20 production, so the first order of business

21 before petitions are approved must be the

22 establishment of organic regulations. This
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1 alone is reason enough to vote against any

2 materials petitioned for use in aquaculture.

3 The NOP should not request review

4 of aquaculture materials when they have not

5 published the aquaculture standards. It's

6 unsettling that the NOP is placing pressure on

7 the NOSB to approve aquaculture material prior

8 to approving an overall standard based on NOSB

9 recommendations.

10 Organic agriculture is a

11 production system that responds to

12 site-specific conditions and promotes

13 ecological balance. The raising of livestock,

14 primarily fish, but also aquatic and

15 vertebrates is fundamentally different from

16 the raising of terrestrial livestock.

17 From an organic standpoint it's

18 essential to take those differences into

19 account when considering both the regulations

20 and any possible additions to the synthetic

21 materials to the National List. The fact that

22 organic regulations have not yet been
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1 developed and approved by both the NOSB and

2 NOP indicates that these differences have not

3 been fully resolved.

4 Specifically for aquatic animals

5 the following petition materials must be

6 rejected: chlorine, tocopherols, trace

7 minerals, vitamins and vaccines. The main

8 reason that these materials must be rejected

9 is because there are no organic aquaculture

10 standards upon which to judge the use of these

11 materials.

12 Secondly, much of the information

13 needed to assess these materials is missing.

14 Chlorine has not aquaculture technical report,

15 tocopherols are both a vitamin and a

16 preservative, and the listing proposal doesn't

17 specify its use.

18 Trace minerals are so broad that

19 they don't even specify which minerals they

20 include. Vitamins are produced using

21 undisclosed proprietary manufacturing

22 practices which can include prohibited
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1 substances or genetic engineering.

2 Vaccines are so broad we don't

3 even know which ones they're referring to, and

4 they too can be produced using excluded

5 methods, including genetic engineering without

6 clearly labeling them.

7 There's clearly not enough

8 information on any of these materials to

9 understand their potential impacts. Likewise,

10 there's no designation if they will be used in

11 open-pen systems or closed ones.

12 The world's fisheries are already

13 in crisis. Open-pen fish farming increases

14 disease transmission and genetic pollution

15 into wild stocks, pollutes the water with

16 excess feces, nutrients and is largely

17 dependent on unstable feed sources.

18 It is truly frightening that

19 organics might embrace factory farm fishing

20 that contributes to the further peril of our

21 oceans, waterways and wild aquatic organisms.

22 Therefore, please reject all aquaculture
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1 proposals, or at the very least amend them to

2 include a five-year Sunset date.

3 Thank you for allowing me to

4 present testimony. If you have any questions,

5 please refer them to the Cornucopia Institute.

6 (General applause.)

7 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much,

8 and thank you for your support of organic

9 food.

10 MS. BERNICK: Thank you.

11 CHAIR STONE: Lisa Bunin is up,

12 and Liana Hoodes is on deck.

13 MS. BUNIN: Good afternoon. My

14 name is Lisa Bunin and I'm the Organic Policy

15 Director at the public interest organization

16 Center for Food Safety.

17 On the 20th anniversary of the

18 Organic Foods Production Act, Senator Leahy

19 invited Deputy Secretary of Agriculture,

20 Kathleen Merrigan, to share her reflections on

21 OFPA with his agriculture nutrition and

22 forestry committee.
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1 Merrigan recalled how Congress

2 carefully chartered the NOSB to facilitate

3 consensus among stakeholders regarding the

4 interpretations of OFPA. She also underscored

5 the gatekeeper function Congress entrusted to

6 the NOSB to stringently evaluate synthetics

7 before allowing them on the National List.

8 The role of any gatekeeper is to

9 limit entry to only the most qualified. For

10 OFPA this means upholding the synthetics

11 prohibition, permitting only certain temporary

12 exceptions.

13 Congress assigned the NOSB this

14 critical gatekeeper function after hearing

15 from constituents that the organic community

16 with stakes in the continuing organic

17 integrity insisted that it maintain control

18 over vetting synthetics. That way no sector

19 of organic could unduly influence the process

20 or curry favor with the Secretary of

21 Agriculture no matter who held that office.

22 No one would argue that this a
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1 perfect process, but the NOSB's gatekeeper

2 actions have made it difficult for synthetics

3 that do not meet OFPA's health, environment

4 and essentiality criteria to make it on the

5 National List.

6 Unfortunately, this important role

7 has been wrongly served by USDA NOP by

8 weakening OFPA's Sunset provision in two

9 significant ways. First, the new policy

10 reverses the presumption that a substance will

11 be removed from the National List to a

12 presumption that it will be retained.

13 The policy includes a change into

14 the Sunset voting procedure from two-thirds

15 majority vote needed to put a substance back

16 on the National List, to a two-thirds majority

17 vote need to remove a synthetic from the list.

18 Secondly, the policy allows

19 synthetics to be renewed by subcommittees

20 without a full Board vote. This undermines

21 Congress's intent of giving the legal

22 authority to gatekeep synthetics to a diverse
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1 15-member stakeholder Board.

2 The new Sunset policy also

3 undermines the principal of continuous

4 improvement, one of the cornerstones of OFPA's

5 implementation. Instead of strengthening

6 procedures that pressure petitioners to find

7 alternatives within five years of the time of

8 listing, it creates complacency by creating

9 the expectation that synthetics will be

10 automatically renewed.

11 Critically the organic brand in

12 consumer markets is driven by organic's high

13 integrity, not the ability to accommodate the

14 lowest common denominator. It's incumbent

15 upon USDA NOP to not forge ahead with

16 streamlining the Sunset process at the expense

17 of public trust or confidence in the organic

18 label.

19 Market growth fueled by a policy

20 that increases the number of synthetics in

21 organic is destined for failure as stated in

22 recent letters sent to USDA by both OFPA's
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1 original drafters and former NOSB chairs.

2 They're calling for USDA to rescind its

3 September 2103 Sunset policy and to engage the

4 public on the issue. The Center for Food

5 Safety adds our voice in support of that

6 effort.

7 Moving to aquaculture, CFS has

8 always been -- the position has always been

9 that no petition to add a substance to the

10 National List for use in organic agriculture

11 should be considered until final regulations

12 are promulgated.

13 In the absence of knowledge about

14 the system within which a substance would be

15 added, approving any substance would be

16 arbitrary, capricious and unlawful. We urge

17 the NOSB to deny all petitions for material in

18 organic aquaculture systems.

19 Neither the NOSB nor the NOP has

20 officially evaluated the wide range of

21 aquaculture systems that could be considered

22 organic. The only system presented to the
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1 organic community, open ocean net facilities,

2 has been championed by the aquaculture working

3 group, comprised of members with vested

4 interests in this system.

5 The Center for Food Safety has

6 consistently argued that open ocean

7 aquaculture can never be organic, and as such,

8 we urge the NOP to prohibit them in organic.

9 Thank you.

10 (General applause.)

11 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank

12 you, Lisa.

13 Jay?

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you, Dr.

15 Bunin. I wanted to switch subjects a little

16 bit. You had written extensively to the Board

17 on methionine, and I'm particularly interested

18 in two things.

19 One, you know, this sort of

20 chicken and the egg argument that we require

21 this material, amino acid, because of the

22 scale in which we're operating, and the lack
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1 of access to pasture. And we can't really

2 mess with reducing or eliminating the chemical

3 because of the systems which are in place.

4 We can't change the systems in

5 place if we allow continued access to the

6 chemical and don't effect some sort of

7 transition, which this Board is on record as

8 endorsing, in a very forceful way by the way.

9 Right. As you know.

10 You come along and say, Well,

11 look, Board, there are these other sort of

12 quirky alternatives out there, but they're not

13 going to get traction unless you do something.

14 And Terry referred to this as too big to fail,

15 which I like that concept.

16 So what do you want to say to

17 Board members who are on the fence about this,

18 and seem to be prepared to let this treadmill

19 go on and on and on with no end in sight?

20 MS. BUNIN: Well, my colleague is

21 going to talk about this tomorrow, but I will

22 give you a little preview in that. We just
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1 produced a report on animal welfare in the

2 poultry industry, and we are very critical of

3 the reluctance to move forward on animal

4 welfare regulations.

5 And the commissioned USDA report

6 says that five big organic producers are

7 unable to implement the very minimum and basic

8 animal welfare recommendations that were put

9 forward by the NOSB. And so as a result it

10 appears as though there are some big large

11 producers that are holding hostage the

12 majority of small and medium sized producers

13 that are able to meet the standards.

14 And issues like methionine, the

15 synthetic methionine, really prop up this

16 really large system of organic poultry

17 production, and so we feel that beginning to

18 require more space requirements is really

19 essential, as well as looking at some of these

20 alternatives seriously.

21 There's still quite a bit of time

22 until methionine is set to run out to look at
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1 this applies or a way or a number of herbs and

2 minerals. We really feel like that's the

3 system that we should be headed in, and if

4 those large producers can't really make the

5 mark, then perhaps they should consider

6 leaving the system.

7 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Lisa.

8 Miles has a comment.

9 MR. McEVOY: Yes, the economic

10 study that we did last year was part of the

11 process of putting the work together so we can

12 move forward with rule making on animal

13 welfare. So it's -- there is an economic

14 impact for us to move forward with those

15 animal welfare recommendations.

16 In order for us to do that and be

17 successful, we need to have that economic

18 information. So that's one --

19 MS. BUNIN: But --

20 MR. McEVOY: -- piece in the --

21 let me finish -- that's one piece in the

22 process of us being able to move forward.
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1 There's a lot more information we need.

2 There is nothing that we said that

3 we're not going to do this. What we said was

4 that it was not going to happen in the near

5 future because we had many other things to do.

6 So say that something's being held hostage

7 because of that report, that report was to try

8 to move this process forward.

9 And that it will move forward. We

10 need more information and more economic

11 analysis so that we can be successful in

12 implementing that recommendation. So I just

13 -- it just -- that's enough. Thanks.

14 CHAIR STONE: Thanks, Miles.

15 Thank you, Lisa.

16 Oh, I'm sorry, Francis.

17 MEMBER THICKE: Lisa, in your

18 research did you -- do you come to the

19 conclusion that aside from those five large

20 houses, the others could make it without any

21 synthetic methionine?

22 MS. BUNIN: Yes, and that's the
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1 conclusion of the USDA's own study. And just

2 to clarify, it was not me who said that you

3 were going to delay the animal welfare

4 regulation development, it was you who

5 released the report with that statement, so

6 that's why we went and took a look at what was

7 the economic basis.

8 And you'll hear more about it

9 tomorrow, but, in fact, the model is a fairly

10 -- it was a fairly stagnant model and it

11 really didn't look at market flexibility

12 because, in fact, as some of the big producers

13 might end up exiting the market, some of the

14 small and medium producers might actually

15 economically thrive under those conditions.

16 CHAIR STONE: Thanks, Lisa.

17 MR. McEVOY: Right. It's one

18 piece of the process, so it's one report, we

19 need lots more information, so we really

20 appreciate the report that you all put

21 together that will help us to move forward on

22 this issue.
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1 MS. BUNIN: Great. We're on the

2 same page. Thank you.

3 MR. McEVOY: We are.

4 CHAIR STONE: Thank you.

5 Liana is up, and Robert Adams on

6 deck.

7 MS. HOODES: Good afternoon. I'm

8 Liana Hoodes. I'm the Executive Director of

9 the National Organic Coalition. We're a

10 national alliance of organizations working to

11 provide a Washington voice for farmers,

12 ranchers, environmentalists, consumers and

13 industry members involved in organic

14 agriculture.

15 To the Board I say thank you.

16 Please stay strong and committed and we

17 appreciate this job you're doing.

18 The National Organic Coalition is

19 extremely disturbed at recent actions by USDA

20 that severely limit the procedures and

21 functioning of the NOSB, as well as

22 contravening the Organic Foods Production Act.
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1 Not the least that the new Sunset

2 policy violates OFPA because it does not

3 subject all materials to the required review,

4 careful analysis, public debate and decisive

5 two-thirds vote as a prerequisite for allowing

6 a material to be relisted through the Sunset

7 process. We demand that USDA reinstate the

8 original Sunset policy.

9 Equally distressing is the

10 Department's heavy hand at controlling both

11 the Board's agenda and the direct relationship

12 to the Secretary. As long as this policy

13 continues unresolved at USDA, we ask members

14 of the NOSB to compel full review, analysis,

15 public debate and vote by the entire Board for

16 all materials at Sunset.

17 Our concern with this heavy

18 handedness at USDA rests with the Secretary.

19 While the USDA maintains control of the USDA

20 organic label, it does not control the true

21 meaning of organic food and agriculture.

22 Organic is a comprehensive alternative to our
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1 conventional food and agriculture system that

2 USDA has never embraced, despite the good work

3 of a few dedicated individuals.

4 The USDA continues to maintain

5 it's simply a marketing label and subject to

6 market forces. Organic is more than a market

7 label. It's an alternative that's desperately

8 needed now for human, environmental and global

9 health, and you on the NOSB are the torch

10 bearers for this entire system as you

11 implement the label.

12 As you know, the degradation of

13 high standards of the label can have

14 significant deleterious effects to the real

15 values of organic. So when USDA takes your

16 power away, we are left with a federal

17 government that seeks to marginalize the

18 success of organic.

19 The needs of family farmers, farm

20 workers, human health and environmental

21 sustainability take a back seat at USDA for

22 the profit of the conventional non-organic
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1 system. This plays out unnecessarily in your

2 work load and your agenda.

3 Why are you being asked to approve

4 materials for an aquaculture system that is

5 yet to be defined? Why has your review of

6 inerts not proceeded despite a plan that would

7 streamline review and finally address what the

8 organic naysayers describe as toxics allowed

9 in organic?

10 Why, after a dozen years, do we

11 still agonize over the definition of something

12 so basic as synthetics, non-synthetics and the

13 classification of materials? Why is the role

14 of the consumer's expectations being dismissed

15 somehow as a special interest not to be paid

16 attention to?

17 Why has the Department never

18 fulfilled its requirement for a continuous

19 oversight mechanism of the NOP? This is not

20 an accident. It is business as usual for the

21 federal government that does not believe in

22 the success of the organic alternative that
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1 was supposed to be more -- not more than a

2 label.

3 Except that the farmers who

4 insisted on being regulated to ensure that the

5 definition of organic stays consistent and

6 strong and is fairly implemented throughout

7 the country. That the producers, the farmers

8 of organic would have a level playing field

9 against market forces.

10 Seed purity. Your voice on seed

11 purity and GMO contamination is really

12 important. Yet the discussion can't happen in

13 a vacuum and seed purity can't happen in the

14 absence of strong national policy of GMO

15 contamination prevention.

16 Please continue to directly appeal

17 to Secretary Vilsack that we need a fair

18 contamination prevention plan, including a

19 compensation scheme that holds the owners of

20 the technology responsible before we ask

21 organic farmers to take more unilateral

22 responsibility.
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1 Whoo. Whoo.

2 CHAIR STONE: Very good.

3 (General laughter and applause.)

4 MS. HOODES: I'm in the running.

5 CHAIR STONE: Good. Now, Mark --

6 Mark, you out of the running, bud. Sorry.

7 Okay. Thank you. That was very

8 -- you got a lot of information in there too

9 as well.

10 Colehour?

11 MEMBER BONDERA: I have what I

12 hope is a quick question. Liana, I thank you

13 for your testimony. Very timely. Can you,

14 just for the -- for -- to wrap my brain around

15 it a little bit, you commented and I wrote it

16 down, continuous oversight of NOP, can you

17 expand on that briefly, please?

18 MS. HOODES: Yes, under the law

19 and the regulation, the NOP is required to

20 have -- to participate in its own

21 accreditation review system. The peer review

22 panel is part of that, but I think it's a much
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1 more -- and I look forward to seeing the

2 results of this, but this has got to happen

3 and it's got to happen soon, that there's

4 oversight in a quality system mechanism. Lynn

5 Cody will be detailing this a little bit more

6 in her comments for us.

7 MR. McEVOY: Yes, and just to give

8 a little bit more on the peer review. The

9 peer review is a requirement as, Liana, as

10 you're saying. We have been conducting peer

11 review of the program through various

12 mechanisms over the last few years and had a

13 list review a few years ago.

14 We have peer reviews that are

15 conducted by our peers, which are foreign

16 governments, when they come in to do the

17 international agreements. Those peer review

18 reports are on our website.

19 This is, I agree, a very important

20 issue to fully implement. We have some

21 concepts that we hope to work with the Board

22 on in terms of a way of having the Board
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1 involved in the peer review process of the

2 program. So I'll be meeting with Lynn to

3 discuss that further during this week.

4 MS. HOODES: Very good. Thank

5 you.

6 CHAIR STONE: Thanks, Liana.

7 Right now you've got the choice

8 between the mug or the t-shirt.

9 (General laughter.)

10 CHAIR STONE: Robert Adams is up,

11 and Linley Dixon is on deck.

12 Robert?

13 MR. ADAMS: Hi, my name is Robert

14 Adams. I am a member of Cornucopia Institute,

15 and I'm here today as a citizen lobbyist. I

16 own a landscaping business in Austin, and I am

17 an organic gardener as well.

18 I drove here today because

19 maintaining and strengthening organic

20 standards is extremely important to me. I

21 would like to comment on the preliminary

22 review of the Sunset materials gellan gum,
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1 tragacanth gum, Marsala and Sherry wine.

2 Cornucopia requests that new

3 technical reviews be completed on all of these

4 materials before they are considered for

5 relisting. No technical report was ever

6 prepared for non-organic Marsala or Sherry,

7 though the heavy use of pesticides in the

8 production of conventionally grown wine grapes

9 is well known, as well as the use of synthetic

10 preservatives and other additives.

11 Cornucopia contacted the original

12 petitioners of Marsala and Sherry, and they

13 are no longer using these cooking wines in

14 their products. Organic sources of

15 Marsala-like wines and Sherry-like wines exist

16 to meet any change in demand in organic

17 production.

18 Therefore, Marsala and Sherry are

19 not essential because organic alternatives are

20 available. If Marsala and Sherry are relisted

21 for some reason, we recommend an annotation to

22 prohibit fortified wines that contain added
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1 sulfites.

2 No technical report was ever

3 prepared for tragacanth gum. A nearly

4 identical organically available emulsifier,

5 thickener and stabilizer is organic gum

6 arabic. Therefore, tragacanth gum is not

7 essential as a non-organically produced

8 ingredient allowed in organics.

9 The technical report for gellan

10 gum is outdated and does not distinguish

11 between the processes used in precipitating

12 high acyl gellan gum and deacetylated gellan

13 gum. We might have recommended reviewing only

14 the high acyl native form of gellan gum for

15 approval, but this is extracted with isopropyl

16 alcohol leaving 750 ppm in the product.

17 Solvent extraction is an excluded method in

18 organics.

19 We carefully reviewed the comments

20 of food processors, handlers and trade

21 associations requesting to relist gellan gum.

22 While we recognize that it keeps fortified
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1 calcium in suspension, manufacturers could

2 choose to use soluble forms of calcium

3 instead.

4 We urge manufacturers to recognize

5 that many consumers of organic products read

6 labels -- I am one who definitely does -- and

7 buy the products with the fewest additives.

8 Rather than pushing for these ingredients to

9 be included in organics, why not advertise

10 your products are free of additives?

11 Consumers are already accustomed

12 to shaking many products and cartons before

13 using. We prefer that to adding of

14 ingredients that may not meet organic

15 standards. If any of these materials are

16 relisted, we urge that a five-year expiration

17 date be added as a notation to the listing

18 given the new Sunset policy.

19 Thank you for allowing me to

20 present my testimony. If you have questions

21 about this testimony, I encourage you to speak

22 with one of Cornucopia's staff members. Thank
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1 you.

2 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Robert.

3 Linley Dixon is up, and Dawn --

4 excuse me, I'm from Kentucky -- Unruh. If

5 you'll correct me when you get up. Thank you.

6 Linley?

7 DR. DIXON: Hi, my name is Linley

8 Dixon. I'm here to comment on the exciting

9 topic of boiler additives, and we're passing

10 around a survey that we did. I'm a food and

11 farm policy analyst for the Cornucopia

12 Institute.

13 I have a Ph.D. in plant pathology

14 from the University of Florida, and a master's

15 degree in plant and soil sciences, part of

16 West Virginia University's organic farm

17 project.

18 I have worked as a researcher for

19 the USDA Agricultural Research Service in

20 Beltsville, and I currently own a 100-member

21 CSA and farmers market vegetable farm in

22 Durango, Colorado.
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1 I'd like to comment on the

2 petitions to add ammonium hydroxide and PGME

3 to the National List as boiler additives. The

4 Cornucopia Institute conducted a survey

5 requesting feedback from the organic community

6 on the essentiality of boiler additives.

7 Thirty-six out of 39 respondents from a wide

8 diversity of handlers, including cheese,

9 edible oils, beer, tofu, milk, juice, almonds,

10 dehydrated potato products, prepared meats and

11 purees required that they do use boiler

12 additives.

13 The two that didn't use them

14 responded that they could only do so because

15 they don't have hard water, and then

16 mechanically clean out the system, usually

17 annually.

18 The boiler additives used included

19 oxygen scavengers, phosphates, amines, and

20 alkaline substances. One of our survey

21 questions was, If the NOSB voted to remove

22 synthetic boiler treatments from the list of
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1 approved materials, what would your actions

2 be? Here are several responses.

3 This would have adverse affects on

4 the performance and longevity of a boiler.

5 There would be increase for a corrosion and

6 energy cost due to scale deposits. We have to

7 find an approved chemical.

8 Running our boiler without the

9 treatments we're using now would void our

10 warranties. We are unaware of any

11 non-synthetic substitutes. The only option I

12 found is a $40,000 clean steam generator.

13 We would cease organic production

14 if no suitable treatment was feasible for

15 boiler health. While the process could still

16 be done, the machinery would break down

17 cyclically. It's not economically practical.

18 It could jeopardize the continued manufacture

19 of organic products.

20 And finally, We currently shut

21 down the chemical injector 48 hours prior to

22 making organic pellets, and make non-organic
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1 pellets for those two days. At the end of the

2 organic round, we turn the chemical injector

3 back on. This works for us, but we would have

4 to use a boiler chemical most of the time. If

5 not, the boiler would become a bomb.

6 It's well understood that ammonium

7 hydroxide persists in steam and has contact

8 with the organic product. Ammonium hydroxide

9 is a thus, synthetic chemical that appears to

10 be non-toxic at concentrations less than 1,000

11 parts per million. Concentrations of ammonium

12 is seen in the range of 5 to 25 parts per

13 million, and then much lower once added to the

14 food.

15 The Cornucopia Institute

16 recognizes that ammonium hydroxide is the most

17 cost-effective method to prevent corrosion in

18 boilers. It's also a safer alternative to the

19 toxic amine boiler additives currently on the

20 National List, for use only in packaging

21 sterilization because of their known

22 volatility and toxicity.
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1 So our stance is that these amine

2 boiler additives should be removed from the

3 list and that if ammonium hydroxide is

4 approved, it should be considered for Sunset

5 after five years, and only if adequate

6 research concludes that the organic industry

7 is prepared to operate without them.

8 Finally, the Cornucopia Institute

9 opposes the use of PGME in organic food,

10 without adding it to the National List, PGME

11 should be considered by the full Board based

12 on the evidence that it does come into contact

13 with the organic food through entrainment of

14 water droplets. A direct quote from the TR

15 states,

16 "While mechanical entrainment can be

17 minimized through mechanical or operational

18 changes, entrainment can occur in all steam

19 generators. Despite this, the handling

20 subcommittee recommended to allow its use

21 without adding it to the list on the basis

22 that it doesn't come into contact with organic
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1 food."

2 So due to the element of

3 occurrence of entrainment in all steam

4 generators, PGME would come into contact with

5 organic food, and the substance is eligible

6 for petition.

7 So thank you for allowing me to

8 present testimony, and I'm happy to take any

9 questions.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Linley.

11 Jean?

12 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Hi, Dr. Dixon.

13 We did talk on the phone, so it's --

14 DR. DIXON: Right.

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: -- nice to see

16 you in person, and we'll talk to you later.

17 I was interested in the data and information

18 that you've just presented to us. Did you

19 find any data that would suggest that if

20 ammonium hydroxide was approved, that it

21 could, in fact, technically, replace the three

22 amines that are presently on the list of
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1 boiler additives that are only presently able

2 to be used for packaging sterilization?

3 DR. DIXON: Yes, it's my

4 understanding -- I'm not, you know, a boiler

5 mechanic, but it's my understand that ammonium

6 hydroxide is sufficient, and could replace the

7 amines that are currently on the list.

8 Based on the -- we asked what

9 chemicals are you using in the survey, and

10 several of them were -- did not list the

11 amines. So several boilers are operating

12 without those.

13 MEMBER RICHARDSON: But could

14 ammonium hydroxide be -- I mean do you have

15 like a scientific article that you might have

16 found that shows that, in fact, there is an

17 equivalency in terms of replacing those amines

18 with ammonium hydroxide?

19 DR. DIXON: Well, just other than

20 the fact that boilers are operating without

21 them.

22 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Okay.
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1 CHAIR STONE: So I'm just curious

2 how it becomes a bomb. I've heard that

3 before, so how does that work?

4 DR. DIXON: My understanding is

5 that the pressure builds up so high -- I'm not

6 sure if that's, you know, exactly accurate,

7 but that the pressure would build up so high

8 that it could -- that explosions could occur.

9 MEMBER THICKE: I could add that.

10 Because if you get a build up of scale, the

11 heat doesn't transfer and then so it gets

12 hotter than it should be.

13 CHAIR STONE: Thanks. I was just

14 -- I was curious about that.

15 MEMBER THICKE: Actually, I was

16 one of the surveyors who doesn't use a steam

17 additive to our boiler.

18 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Thank

19 you, Linley.

20 DR. DIXON: Thank you.

21 CHAIR STONE: Very -- oh, I'm

22 sorry. Harold? I'm sorry, Linley.
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1 DR. DIXON: Oh, hi.

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you. I

3 think your tests shown a little bit, as we

4 move forward into the Sunset review process,

5 as we look ahead towards the 2016, we do have

6 the three boiler materials that are on there,

7 plus the two that we're going to be discussing

8 today.

9 In your opinion, with the

10 research, the information that you guys have

11 gotten back and gathered and presented to us,

12 and thank you very much for that, it's quite

13 useful, what -- how would you feel that we

14 should proceed moving ahead? You know, our

15 handling discussion will be on Thursday and

16 ammonium hydroxide and PGME are listed there.

17 It's part of a very broader scope

18 rather than just a single material. And I

19 think we want to do -- I think this is a good

20 example of part of the responsibility of this

21 Board and the Sunset process is to look at the

22 materials.
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1 You've suggested that there might

2 possibly be one material that we could take a

3 serious look at that could possibly replace

4 three materials that will be up for Sunset

5 review. I guess a little bit of clarification

6 on that, and the information you got from some

7 of these people on that, and how do you feel

8 we should proceed with this?

9 Because the subcommittee proposal,

10 moving ahead, was actually going to be -- and

11 we'll discuss this on Thursday, but was

12 actually going to be to possibly not list

13 that.

14 DR. DIXON: Right. I think what I

15 found was kind of glaring is that the organic

16 community -- and we even got responses that we

17 would move ahead without them or leave the

18 organic industry, so I think if -- we need to,

19 in our decision making process, use, you know,

20 the vast list of people that are part of the

21 program, get their information and before we

22 act just make sure they're prepared to.
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1 And so our recommendation is based

2 on the fact that there -- they don't know how

3 to operate right now without them. So if that

4 is going to be the NOSB's stance, make sure

5 the information is readily available so that

6 they can operate without them.

7 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you. A

8 great example of why we're all here. Thanks.

9 CHAIR STONE: Yes, thank you very

10 much.

11 Dawn Unruh, and please correct me

12 again, and Cynthia Kurkowski is on deck.

13 MS. UNRUH: Hi there. I'm Dawn

14 Unruh, German. Great to be here. I'm a

15 member of the Cornucopia Institute and I'm

16 here today as a citizen lobbyist. I'm a mom,

17 a wife, a Gigi, for those of you who don't

18 know, that's grandma.

19 And I've been in nutrition and

20 fitness all of my life, and I'm just kind of

21 wondering, after having the wonderful

22 experience of listening to all of this today,
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1 what's for dinner. Yeah.

2 I would like to comment on the

3 motion to remove glycerin from the National

4 List as an allowed non-agricultural synthetic,

5 205.605(b). Cornucopia supports the petition

6 to remove glycerin from the National List.

7 The TR produced in 2013 states that,

8 "In recent years, new developments have

9 improved both methods and non-GMO yeast

10 strains allowing substantial overproduction of

11 organic glycerin by fermentation."

12 The TR lists 21 handling

13 operations that manufacture and/or source USDA

14 certified organic glycerin. Removing glycerin

15 from the National List is imperative to

16 incentivize the purchase and continued

17 increase in production of organic glycerin.

18 Despite this substantial

19 overproduction of organic glycerin by

20 fermentation, the OTA and others surprisingly

21 commented to leave glycerin on the National

22 List, with an annotation to be used only when
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1 organic glycerin is commercially unavailable.

2 This only serves to create a

3 loophole for the continued use of non-organic

4 glycerin. The OTA suggests not only leaving

5 glycerin on 205.605, but also to add the

6 agricultural version of glycerin to 205.606,

7 both with commercial availability

8 requirements.

9 We recognize that commercial

10 availability is crucial to not disrupting the

11 organic marketplace. However, the TR

12 indicates that there's an overproduction of

13 organic glycerin and multiple manufacturers

14 that could continue to increase the supply in

15 accordance with demand.

16 Organic regulations must encourage

17 transitions to organic options in the

18 industry. Organic glycerin may be produced by

19 either microbial fermentation, classified as

20 agricultural non-synthetic, or by hydrolysis

21 of organic fats and oils, classified as

22 non-agricultural synthetic.
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1 Organic glycerin produced by

2 hydrolysis of organic fats and oils using

3 either steam splitting or traditional

4 saponification requires an alkali such as

5 sodium carbonate, sodium hydroxide, or

6 potassium hydroxide.

7 Cornucopia recommends that organic

8 glycerin should be produced by the process of

9 microbial fermentation using only mechanical

10 and biological processes, as required in

11 205.270(a), the organic handling requirements,

12 and without the use of allowed synthetics

13 listed in 205.605(b).

14 Finally, glycerin is also listed

15 on 205.603 as a synthetic substance allowed

16 for use in organic livestock production as a

17 livestock teat dip. Please consider removing

18 glycerin from 205.603 since there is already

19 a surplus of organic glycerin available.

20 Thank you so much, and questions

21 will be taken by the staff members from

22 Cornucopia Institute.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Dawn.

2 MS. UNRUH: You're welcome.

3 CHAIR STONE: Cynthia Kurkowski is

4 up, and Barbara Ovalle is on deck.

5 Cynthia?

6 MS. KURKOWSKI: Hi. I had a

7 script, and I have just thrown it aside, so

8 I'm kind of just talking to you basically

9 right now. I represent March Against Monsanto

10 San Antonio, also the Right to Know movement,

11 and I'm a concerned citizen.

12 I am here before you -- I find

13 myself here because of the journey I came

14 through the GMO marketplace, and the no GMO

15 marketplace of course. And you need to

16 understand that the organic community is our

17 saviors. We see the clouds parting, the

18 sunlight coming down on you. You are it. You

19 are our salvation.

20 Every day I talk to people about

21 how to move away from GMO and how to live GMO

22 free. You are the only alternative we have
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1 now. It is so important. I implore you,

2 please do not compromise -- do not compromise

3 on integrity, do not streamline to sacrifice

4 quality product. Keep it pure, please.

5 I live in Texas, I was born and

6 raised here. I don't eat food out of the bay

7 anymore because everybody knows the oil

8 spills. Our food sources are shrinking. Now

9 we've got Pacific, so much for my tuna.

10 And it's just -- I am actually

11 getting to the point now where I'm starting to

12 tell people, Grow your own. Grow your own.

13 Because what is the alternative? If you're

14 going to taint the food, if you're going to

15 make allowances, introduce synthetic

16 additives, provide loopholes, don't do it.

17 Please.

18 We already have all that out there already.

19 We don't need that.

20 What we need is real food to --

21 not just for nourishing, but for healing. I

22 found myself here because family members died
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1 from cancer, from kidney failure, from bladder

2 failure, from gastrointestinal issues. And we

3 thought we were eating good.

4 I'm not a big fast food eater. I

5 give fresh vegetables and fruits to my

6 children. I was juicing. And then I find out

7 about all the GMOs. I'm thinking I'm doing

8 pretty good overall, peel everything, you

9 know. But my only alternative is organic, and

10 I can't always afford it, but I'm doing it.

11 And I live on the bedroom

12 community outside of San Antonio, and I'll

13 tell you about money, because I know money

14 talks, and that's who you're listening to

15 right now is big money. Remember your

16 consumers are your customers, that's who you

17 really are loyal to.

18 And we need this, and we are

19 behind you. We will give you all our money,

20 just please keep it pure. In San Antonio and

21 Cibolo, Schwertz over there by the Retama, you

22 know, Racetrack, they -- that HEB out there
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1 had nothing organic.

2 It was so difficult to find

3 organic out there. Within a year I've got

4 four different displays now, areas, specific

5 areas for organic now that were not there

6 before. I now have an organic farmer market

7 that's coming into my neighborhood. Before I

8 had to drive 25 miles if I wanted that.

9 So the money's coming in. It's a

10 growing market. You all know that. Just

11 please, please be loyal to your consumer, your

12 customer, because we depend on you for our

13 health, for life. That's it. Thank you.

14 CHAIR STONE: Good. Thank you.

15 (General applause.)

16 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much

17 for a passionate positive for organic.

18 Barbara, if you'd pronounce your

19 last name, since I'm sure I didn't get it

20 right, and Juan --

21 MS. OVALLE: It's Ovalle. Barbara

22 Ovalle.
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1 CHAIR STONE: -- and Juan Beltran

2 is on deck.

3 MS. OVALLE: Okay. My name is

4 Barbara Ovalle. I am also a local resident

5 and devoted organic consumer, and I also am a

6 member of March Against Monsanto San Antonio.

7 I'm filling in a vacancy, so I'm going to do

8 the same, I'm just going to speak from my

9 heart and how I really feel as a consumer.

10 I am here to represent the public

11 interest and trust in the organic label.

12 First, I want to talk a little bit about the

13 current perception of that, of the organic

14 label, at least locally and from family and

15 friends, people in my area.

16 When I talk about that, when I

17 talk organics, I get mixed responses. You get

18 people who are 100 percent, yeah, organic, I

19 support organic. Then you have others who are

20 on the opposite ends that really don't care

21 about their food, they're just like whatever.

22 But now it's starting to be a
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1 larger gray area. Conversations are more

2 sounding like, Well, there's still synthetics

3 in organics, or How do you know the government

4 is upholding their job and the organic label

5 and making sure the standards are there, and

6 you hear about GMO contamination.

7 So it's -- and I'm hearing it more

8 now more than before, so it's starting to be

9 people are falling in the middle. Maybe

10 they're going away from organics, or maybe

11 they are learning about organics but then

12 they're hearing about these things and it's --

13 so it's -- so basically I just want to say

14 that the public trust is already an issue

15 that's treading on shaky ground. So we don't

16 want to compromise that.

17 Again, as a citizen and consumer,

18 I believe that transparency and clarity is a

19 must for the benefit of the people. We need

20 to truly and wholeheartedly believe and

21 understand and in layman's terms, that there

22 is no room for loss of integrity in the
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1 organic label.

2 I don't want to think that the

3 lack of action or lack of data means that

4 synthetics will just keep lingering in my

5 food. Sunset seems to have been originally

6 implemented so that synthetics get

7 automatically challenged and possibly kicked

8 out of our food, unless it's been deemed

9 necessary.

10 So, and that's how it should be.

11 So the national approved list of materials

12 should be aiming at getting shorter, not

13 longer. Over time I think that this will

14 eventually happen, it's just going to get

15 longer.

16 So why, as a consumer, should I

17 keep buying organic? For the chance that it

18 is truly organic or real food? There should

19 not be a chance. I want to know. Organic is

20 my family's safe haven. As Cynthia said, it's

21 our safe haven in terms of eating non-GMO,

22 non-synthetic, non-toxic foods.
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1 Already I have a serious issue and

2 concern over the acceptable process of

3 mutagenesis in organics. That is not an

4 organic process when genes are manipulated in

5 that way, irradiated.

6 Also, the farm fish issue now

7 being brought up, how can that be considered

8 organic, they are not living in their natural

9 habitat, so of course they need to be chocked

10 full of synthetic vitamins, minerals,

11 vaccines. So to me that's not organic.

12 But I do -- I want to believe that

13 my family's food will stay real with the least

14 amount of synthetics as possible, and I'm

15 afraid that these policy changes will

16 jeopardize that. Thank you.

17 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

18 Thank you for coming to testify.

19 (General applause.)

20 CHAIR STONE: Juan Beltran, and

21 Kurt Jacobsen on deck.

22 MR. BELTRAN: Hello. My name is
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1 Juan Beltran. I am a production manager in

2 Berrymex in Mexico. We grow organic berries

3 in Jalisco, in Michoacán, in Baja, and I'm in

4 Michoacán. And I'm here to talk to you about

5 sulfurous acid from the sulfur burners.

6 We started using them in

7 Michoacán last year and we've seen good

8 improvements in our production. And it's

9 basically what we have seen is that it's a

10 sustainable way of improving our water. We

11 have a 8.1 pH water normally in our wells, so

12 it's really hard for us to grow crops without

13 being decremental toward our soil, you know.

14 So we like to conserve our soil and improve

15 our production with sulfurous acid.

16 And some other improvements that

17 we've seen this year in the production, we

18 have little need for adding micro-nutrients to

19 our crops and to our soils. The berries have

20 been able to naturally use what we've used as

21 amendments from the compost and everything we

22 use into the soil. Since we have better water
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1 quality, these nutrients are en bloc in our

2 soil and we are being able to grow healthier

3 berries.

4 In terms of how sulfurous acid can

5 be a sulphate fertilizer, I don't see it has

6 -- how it can be viable. The reality is that

7 we've seen real little improvements in how

8 sulfates are available either in our leaf

9 analysis and our soil analysis, and we have

10 other sources for it, so we can use sulfate

11 potash or other nutrients, and in that case we

12 don't see it as a fertilizer, so just an

13 improvement to water quality.

14 And in terms what we really feel

15 is that this still improves the conditions of

16 our soil and improves the conditions of our

17 water, making our production process more

18 sustainable. I'm open to any questions you

19 might have.

20 CHAIR STONE: Francis?

21 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you, Juan.

22 MR. BELTRAN: Yeah.
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1 MEMBER THICKE: Before you used

2 sulfurous acid, are you familiar with anything

3 else that will do similar -- will help in the

4 same way, or have you tried anything else?

5 MR. BELTRAN: Yeah, we've been

6 growing organic berries since 2003 in Mexico,

7 and we started out in Baja with strawberries.

8 And we starting using citric acid. But the

9 reality is that it's benefits to the -- in low

10 -- in such a high pH water, we really didn't

11 see it, you know.

12 It wasn't until we started using

13 the sulfur burners that we actually see a

14 sufficient enough reduction in the pH in the

15 water, and by eliminating the decarbonates and

16 carbonates in it that we really see some

17 potential for making an economically viable

18 production.

19 It's also the -- we -- it's not

20 like we're just using the sulfur burners.

21 We're also using the compost and everything.

22 But in certain soils and certain water
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1 sources, I see it as the only viable option.

2 It's not for everything, you know. It's

3 certain types of soils and certain types of

4 waters that we have.

5 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Harold?

6 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yeah, Juan -- over

7 here -- compared to the applications -- in

8 water and stuff, in the treatments prior to

9 the -- using the sulfur burner and forming

10 this sulfurous acid, do you see a significant

11 variation in the amount -- in the inputs that

12 you're having to add to the soil before versus

13 now that you're using, you know, the sulfur

14 burners and the conditions that this is doing

15 to your soil and the treatments as far as the

16 additives that you're having to put in, the

17 other inputs?

18 MR. BELTRAN: Yeah, basically what

19 -- this is my first year managing a farm with

20 sulfur burners. And it's really changing how

21 we try to improve or incorporate different

22 materials to the soil.
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1 Right now we're moving more into

2 compost and blood meal and bone meal. And

3 we're less dependent in calcium sulfate, for

4 example, and other sources of nutrients, and

5 also in micro-nutrients. So we started moving

6 more to these blood meal, bone meals and

7 compost because we see that now it's working

8 in the soil. As in the past, we had to be

9 more dependent in potassium sulfate in one

10 sense, and calcium sulfate and other

11 micro-elements to be able to grow good enough

12 production.

13 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Juan.

14 Thank you --

15 MR. BELTRAN: Thanks.

16 CHAIR STONE: -- very much.

17 Kurt Jacobsen is at the podium,

18 and Morgan Tittle is on deck.

19 MR. JACOBSEN: Good afternoon. My

20 name is Kurt Jacobsen, and I'm the National

21 Organic Supply Manager for Driscoll's, and I'm

22 here to support the relisting of sulfurous
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1 acid on behalf of our independent organic

2 growers and on behalf of Driscoll's as a

3 whole.

4 I've been with the company a

5 little over a year, so I don't have extensive

6 experience, but I've heard a lot about the

7 sulfur burner and the experience of our

8 growers, and I feel like it's very important

9 that we relist this product.

10 Our mission as a company is to

11 delight our berry consumers through alignment

12 with our customers and our growers. And I

13 mention that because we function with function

14 with an independent grower base. Some people

15 may look at Driscoll's and see this big

16 entity, but what we really are is a network of

17 small independent growers, especially on the

18 organic side.

19 One of our biggest focuses as an

20 organization is to ensure the long term health

21 of our grower base. We do everything we

22 possibly can to make sure that our growers
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1 have a healthy deal and so we provide all the

2 support we possibly can to make sure that our

3 growers can farm successfully, sustainably for

4 a long time, earn some money and grow their

5 business.

6 Which brings me to the sulfur

7 burner and the on-farm generation of the

8 sulfurous acid. I read a bunch of the

9 supporting documents and I think the point

10 that says it best is that sulfurous acid

11 provides organic farmers the ability to amend

12 irrigation water exactly the same way that

13 nature does, and by recreating the properties

14 of natural rainwater in our irrigation water,

15 we improve soil conditions and soil health.

16 That's it in a nutshell.

17 I recommend reading the full

18 report. I don't know how many people here

19 have read it; I'm sure you guys all have. But

20 it's fascinating, it's interesting, and to me

21 it's a no-brainer. I mean it's a fabulous

22 system. It reduces soil pH, reduces the pH of
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1 the water, it allows better uptake of

2 nutrients, it helps dissolve salts and leach

3 salts out of the soil. I mean it's quite an

4 amazing technology, and it's a great

5 technology, and we should continue -- let our

6 growers use it.

7 You heard Juan, there's other

8 examples in the public documents about showing

9 a decrease in pH, showing changes in nutrient

10 levels. So I think it's just a really

11 important tool. We have a limited toolbox,

12 it's one that we need to keep. So I highly

13 encourage the Board to relist sulfurous acid

14 on behalf of our organic growers.

15 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Kurt.

16 MR. JACOBSEN: All right.

17 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

18 Morgan Tittle is up, and Patty

19 Lovera is on deck.

20 MR. TITTLE: Thank you for

21 allowing me to address the Board today. I

22 represent a family farm on the central coast
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1 of California where we grow raspberries,

2 blackberries and blueberries. I'm here today

3 to also express my support of sulfurous acid

4 and the use of sulfur burners.

5 Like Juan and Kurt have expressed

6 before me, there are many benefits for the

7 use. In my opinion, the main benefit and the

8 best benefit to growers is that it is the best

9 alternative that we have. Other alternatives

10 are sulfurous acid or citric acid, which are

11 very dangerous and very -- pose a great risk

12 to the environment.

13 The sulfurous acid and the sulfur

14 burner uses 99.9 percent pure elemental sulfur

15 and I don't think it takes a whole bunch of

16 chemistry experience to know that a 50-pound

17 bag of sulfur is going to be much more safe to

18 work with and to store than a 300 gallon tank

19 of liquid acid.

20 As Juan and Kurt have also

21 mentioned, that it allows us to be more

22 efficient with our irrigation and with our
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1 nutrient applications. In California we've

2 experienced many winters below average

3 rainfall, and as a result we have had a

4 buildup of salts and bicarbonates in our soil,

5 leading to the death and deterioration of our

6 crops.

7 With the sulfur burners, we were

8 able to leach away these salts and

9 bicarbonates and once again restore a healthy

10 productive growing environment in our soil.

11 Also being more efficient with our

12 fertilizer has many impacts, not only

13 financially, but also to the environment. For

14 example, if I wanted to -- before the use of

15 the sulfur burner, I might have had to apply

16 10 units of nitrogen per week. With this use

17 of sulfur burner, I can now cut that

18 application to maybe seven or eight units of

19 nitrogen and still achieve the same or greater

20 effects.

21 As a grower we are constantly

22 under pressures and regulations and constantly
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1 losing tools, and as an organic grower, we

2 already have a very limited toolbox. I think

3 that sulfurous acid and sulfur burners are

4 essential and a great benefit to growers not

5 only organically but also conventionally.

6 Thank you, and I'm open to any questions.

7 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Morgan.

8 Oh, I'm sorry. Harold?

9 Morgan, I'm sorry, we had one.

10 Harold over here has one.

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: Morgan, thank you

12 for coming to testify before the Board today.

13 We appreciate everybody that's willing to take

14 the time out of their busy schedules,

15 especially a family farm, and come and share

16 your thoughts and concerns with us as a Board.

17 With the sulfurous acid that

18 you've been using, how long have you been

19 using that?

20 MR. TITTLE: Since 2011.

21 MEMBER AUSTIN: Can you explain to

22 us the differences on your family's farm that
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1 you've been able to experience and see from

2 before you started to use it to now, you know,

3 looking -- you know, taking into consideration

4 that you're not putting on a water now that's

5 an 818283, you're now putting on a more

6 neutral-based water, what are the impacts that

7 you're seeing that you feel it's doing?

8 You've talked a little bit about

9 the reduction in the amount of inputs that

10 you're putting on. What about soil -- are you

11 pulling any soil samples looking at microbial

12 activity, and then how do you relate that to

13 plant development and growth and health?

14 MR. TITTLE: Yes, sir, I pull soil

15 samples all throughout the season at various

16 stages of production and growth of the plant.

17 Soil samples are a tool that I use for many

18 different things. It's kind of difficult to

19 put a number on it, but kind of an overall

20 observation, our plants have much more vigor,

21 much healthier looking plant.

22 As I'd mentioned, we can be more
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1 -- not only more efficient with our fertilizer

2 application, but the plants can all begin to

3 utilize the nutrients that are already in the

4 soil, many of which are micro-nutrients that,

5 for one, are difficult to find a reputable

6 source, and two, are difficult for plant

7 uptake. So the use of the sulfur burner and

8 sulfurous acid has given us a huge benefit in

9 that aspect.

10 Also, as I mentioned, leaching

11 away the salts, opening up pore space for

12 water infiltration and oxygen, has greatly

13 helped us maintain and improve the health of

14 our soils. Thank you.

15 CHAIR STONE: All right. Again,

16 thank you very much for your time.

17 Patty Lovera, and Bev Walker on

18 deck. Thank you, Patty.

19 MS. LOVERA: Okay. Hi. My name's

20 Patty Lovera, and I'm from Food and Water

21 Watch, which is a consumer advocacy group, and

22 we're also a member of the National Organic
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1 Coalition.

2 So before I get to some of the

3 things that are on the agenda for this

4 meeting, I did want to echo what we've heard

5 from other folks today about our

6 disappointment about some of the things that

7 have changed for this meeting, including the

8 Board being told that the capacity of the NOP

9 can limit what the Board is able to talk

10 about.

11 So we spend a lot of time,

12 actually more time on kind of conventional

13 food and all of the issues in conventional ag,

14 than we actually do on organic. But we get

15 asked a lot how they're different. And this

16 process is one of the things I bring up.

17 I don't get to go anywhere else in

18 the food system and have these conversations

19 about what the rules are, what the standards

20 are and consumers don't either. This is a key

21 difference, and it is disappointing to see the

22 scope of what can happen here at this place
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1 where the organic community is supposed to

2 figure stuff out be limited in that way.

3 And then I think not surprisingly

4 we're also pretty disturbed by what's going on

5 with the changes to the Sunset process. We've

6 heard the conversation this morning about some

7 of the semantics of how the rule works.

8 I remain unconvinced, I think a

9 lot of other people remain unconvinced, and,

10 you know, we might get into two meetings

11 versus one and what happens in what sequence,

12 but I think the bottom line for the folks that

13 I'm representing, and what more and more

14 consumers are going to start to understand, is

15 that the default is that stuff stays on the

16 list, and the things that they wish were

17 starting to come off, it's going to take a lot

18 more work to do that.

19 And that sends the wrong signal,

20 and I think it's just going to chip away, it's

21 going to continue to chip away at the

22 confidence that people have in the label. And
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1 I think it was Jay who said this morning that

2 we're streamlining this process at the expense

3 of public trust. And there is a long term

4 cost to that that you're not going to be able

5 to get back if people start to think that

6 there isn't a way to improve these standards.

7 So there are a couple of things on

8 the agenda that kind of speak to the Sunset

9 process, which has not been a treat to date.

10 We've struggled with it. Right? So

11 streptomycin is one of them. I will point you

12 to two of our comments.

13 We included a petition from over

14 12,000 of our supporters who are urging the

15 Board not to extend the expiration date for

16 streptomycin. We've had this conversation

17 before.

18 A year ago we were pleased when

19 the Board voted not to extend the use of

20 tetracycline and I think the case is even more

21 compelling for streptomycin in terms of the

22 residue data you had in there, and the
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1 conversation about who's actually using it,

2 and how essential that it is.

3 And again, this is just in the

4 context of the public having a conversation

5 and more and more and more people are becoming

6 aware of antibiotics, the fragile resource

7 that they are, and the role of any use of

8 antibiotics anywhere, that it chips away at

9 this tool that we're not really putting new

10 antibiotics in our toolbox of what we can use

11 to treat disease.

12 So we're having a conversation

13 with folks about conventional agriculture,

14 we're talking to city councils all over the

15 country, and they're doing resolutions to urge

16 Congress to take action on antibiotic use in

17 conventional livestock.

18 And antibiotics -- organics should

19 be on the right side of this issue and be able

20 to say with no asterisk, no exceptions, We

21 don't use them. That's where organics should

22 be, and that's where organic consumers want
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1 organic to be.

2 So another Sunset issue is

3 methionine. It's time for that to end as

4 well. It's really hard to say there's an

5 incentive to find alternatives if there's

6 constant, constant, constant exceptions and

7 extensions, and it really starts to seem like

8 an idle threat that you have five years to

9 find an alternative if we're constantly

10 getting another five years.

11 And not shockingly, on aquaculture

12 we don't think you can approve these materials

13 until you define what an aquaculture system

14 is, the range of what is called aquaculture is

15 enormous, from open ocean farms we don't think

16 should be anywhere near the label of organic,

17 to much smaller land-based closed

18 recirculating systems that maybe we can figure

19 out.

20 But until we define what's

21 organic, I don't know how you evaluate these

22 materials against all of the rules that you're
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1 supposed to do when you consider those. So

2 I'll stop there.

3 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Patty.

4 Very well stated. All right. Thank you very

5 much.

6 (General applause.)

7 CHAIR STONE: Bev Walker to the

8 podium, and Mike Durschmid on deck.

9 MS. WALKER: Hi, I'm Beverly

10 Walker. I'm a concerned consumer. I'm a

11 member of the Cornucopia Institute, and I'm

12 here today as a citizen lobbyist.

13 I volunteered to help present

14 testimony because I want to ensure the

15 integrity of organic food. I don't think the

16 word "organic" should be -- or its label

17 should be adulterated.

18 I will comment on the two

19 livestock proposals before you: synthetic

20 methionine in organic poultry production and

21 acidified sodium chlorite as a teat

22 disinfectant. We support the livestock
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1 subcommittee amendment for synthetic

2 methionine, believing it will allow some

3 flexibility to adjust the methionine levels

4 based in the state of life of the bird.

5 That said, we encourage a more

6 holistic approach to poultry management that

7 will reduce the dependence on synthetic

8 methionine. Some of the practices we would

9 like to see more organic poultry producers

10 incorporate include access to healthy growing

11 pasture, not just a concrete porch; stocking

12 densities that allow pastures to maintain

13 vegetative cover and natural biodiversity to

14 thrive.

15 Sufficient pop holes in the

16 chicken house to encourage outdoor foraging;

17 management practices that include opening

18 doors as much as possible; locating some feed

19 and water outside to encourage foraging;

20 utilizing slower growing or heritage chicken

21 breeds that are capable of superior foraging;

22 a varied diet of diverse nutritious foods, not
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1 just corn and soy; natural supplements that

2 could include herbal, methionine or non-GMO

3 fermented methionine when those become

4 available.

5 Our stance is that if this

6 adjusted methionine proposal is approved, it

7 should be expected to Sunset in five years, if

8 research shows alternative management

9 practices and/or natural supplements can

10 supply adequate levels of methionine for

11 poultry health.

12 We encourage the NOSB and the USDA

13 to support aggressive research into the

14 alternatives to synthetic methionine. We also

15 support a resolution by the NOSB to Sunset

16 this material in 2019.

17 For the second proposal on

18 acidified sodium chlorite, we agree with

19 livestock subcommittee that this product is

20 not necessary in organic production.

21 Therefore we encourage you to reject the

22 petition to list acidified sodium chlorite.
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1 This material does not appear to

2 have wide support in the organic industry.

3 The technical report states,

4 "International regulations regarding the

5 use of acidified sodium chlorite solutions in

6 organic agricultural production, processing

7 and handling are lacking. Presumably that

8 means the acidified sodium chlorite is not

9 approved for organic livestock under

10 international organic regulations."

11 The livestock subcommittee deemed

12 it unnecessary after speaking to organic

13 farmers. We agree that you should reject this

14 petition.

15 Thank you very much for allowing

16 me to present testimony. If there are any

17 questions, please speak with one of the staff

18 members at Cornucopia. Thank you.

19 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Bev.

20 (General applause.)

21 CHAIR STONE: Mike Durschmid, and

22 Zak Wiegand is on deck.
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1 Mike?

2 MR. DURSCHMID: How are you doing?

3 My name's Mike Durschmid. I'm a member of the

4 Organic Consumers Association. Today,

5 representatives of the Organic Consumers

6 Association's March Against Monsanto San

7 Antonio staged their protest here at the NOSB

8 meeting.

9 Changes to the process of removing

10 organic ingredients and materials from the

11 NOP's National List of substances allowed and

12 prohibited in products certified as organic,

13 the damages made without the due process or

14 input from the public endorsed as organic

15 standards and will result in the list of

16 synthetic and non-organic ingredients and

17 materials allowed in organic to grow

18 increasingly and irreversibly longer.

19 For more than a decade, the

20 process of deciding what ingredients and

21 materials are allowed in organic has been

22 fairly democratic. The OCA routinely attends
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1 NOSB meetings on behalf of more than one

2 million of its representatives.

3 Under the new provision, it will

4 be extremely difficult to get non-organic

5 materials and ingredients removed from the

6 list. Our protest today is intended to draw

7 attention to the threat that this new process

8 poses to organic standards, the arbitrary

9 manner in which the process was challenged --

10 or changed and to demand that the changes be

11 revised.

12 Non-organic materials targeted for

13 removal. OCA's Save Organic Standards

14 campaign has targeted several non-organic

15 materials for removal from the National

16 Organics List. These include carrageenan, a

17 thickener and emulsifier, with no natural

18 nutritional value that is harmful to humans'

19 health. OCA's petition to remove carrageenan

20 from the National List has been signed by

21 15,000 organic consumers.

22 Methionine, a cheap synthetic feed
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1 additive that provides an essential amino acid

2 needed by fast growing chickens raised without

3 access to pasture on the nutritional --

4 nutrition and poor diet of corn and soy.

5 OCA's petition demanding real outdoor access

6 for organic chickens has been signed by 36-,

7 nearly 37,000 organic consumers.

8 Synthetic nutrients, vitamins and

9 minerals, a group of synthetic ingredients

10 illegally added to National List en masse

11 without individual approval. Synthetic

12 nutrients can disrupt normal metabolistic

13 functions with devastating side effects.

14 OCA's petition to remove synthetic nutrients,

15 vitamins and minerals from the National List

16 has been signed by 17,000, or actually nearly

17 18,000 organic consumers.

18 Mutant microgenes created in a lab

19 using radiation and chemical to provide

20 mutagens, including DMS -- or DSMs and DHA and

21 ARAs, which have been linked to severe gastric

22 diseases or distress, prolonged periods of
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1 vomiting and painful bloating. OCA's petition

2 to ban mutagens from organic has been signed

3 by 11,470 organic consumers.

4 Sausage casings from the

5 intestines of non-organic animals likely

6 raised on factory farms and feed slaughter

7 waste. This practice has given rise to a form

8 of human mad cow disease called CJD, often

9 mis-diagnosed as Alzheimer's Disease.

10 Because of the changes Mr. McEvoy

11 has made to the Sunset process, these

12 problematic non-organic materials will likely

13 be allowed to stay on the National List and in

14 USDA certified organic foods.

15 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Mike.

16 Zak Wiegand, and Laura Batcha's on

17 deck.

18 MR. WIEGAND: All right.

19 CHAIR STONE: Thank you.

20 MR. WIEGAND: Good after -- well,

21 it's good evening now. My name is Zak

22 Wiegand, and I am the Processing Program
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1 Technical Specialist for Oregon Tilth.

2 Oregon Tilth is a non-profit

3 membership-based organization that promotes

4 sustainable agriculture through education,

5 research, advocacy, and certification. We

6 certify over 1400 farms, handlers across

7 borders, pretty much internationally.

8 We at Oregon Tilth would like to

9 thank the compliance and accreditation and

10 certification subcommittee for their work on

11 the request for NOP clarification on guidance

12 -- guidance for retail certification.

13 As you already know, there's a

14 growing interest in voluntary retail

15 certification, and as such there's a definite

16 need for clarification and guidance to help

17 this portion of the industry progress. Based

18 on this topic, we feel that you have further

19 voiced this opinion.

20 All right. As noted in the

21 proposal there's an inconsistency in

22 interpretation of the regulations surrounding
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1 retail operations. We have participated in

2 discussion with other accredited certifiers

3 and it is clear that not everyone is on the

4 same page.

5 Because of the division in the

6 interpretation, we agree that the request for

7 clarification from the NOP that is included in

8 this proposal.

9 We've also reviewed comments

10 submitted by the Organic Trade Association and

11 the Accredited Certifiers Association, their

12 -- and their comments echo the same concerns

13 with the lack of clear guidance from the NOP

14 as well as necessary resources for industry.

15 Overall we feel this proposal

16 addresses points of clarity needed in the

17 world of retail certification, which will

18 allow for easier entry, increased

19 understanding and support for voluntary

20 certification of retail operations. So thank

21 you again for your work on this proposal.

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Zak.
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1 Questions?

2 (No response.)

3 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

4 Thanks for taking time.

5 Laura to the podium, and Diana

6 Elizalde, yeah, please correct, Elizalde, on

7 deck.

8 MS. BATCHA: Hi. Just to wake you

9 up. I know it's been a long day. So first I

10 just want to say that we appreciate all of you

11 being willing to sit in your chairs and go

12 through what has been a long first day of the

13 Board meeting here, and we really do

14 appreciate that you're still continuing to sit

15 here and indulge us with our comments.

16 So I'm Laura Batcha. I'm the

17 Executive Director of the Organic Trade

18 Association and I'm here to provide comments

19 on behalf of our membership, as well as on

20 behalf of the Organic Center, a non-profit

21 research and education organization that

22 operates under the umbrella of the Trade
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1 Association.

2 We represent certified organic

3 operators of all sizes and points in the

4 supply chain. Everything from single

5 owner-operator farms and ranches to first

6 handlers, branded manufacturers, distributers

7 and retailers throughout the supply chain, and

8 over half of our members are small businesses

9 below a million dollars a year in gross sales.

10 We use a task force system to get

11 a range of views from our membership that's

12 really helpful for us in trying to provide

13 some meaningful comments to you all.

14 I'm passing around two things.

15 One is a summary of our comments. You guys

16 have received all our written comments, I'm

17 not going to go through them in too much

18 detail now. But also a copy of a report that

19 the Organic Center just released this spring

20 coming out of the Board meeting with the

21 determination to expire the use of

22 tetracycline for apple and pear production.
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1 The Organic Center invested

2 financial resources in compiling the most

3 relevant and current information from growers

4 about how to use organic compliant protocols

5 to produce apples and pears without the use of

6 antibiotics that came out this spring.

7 We've been working through Ag

8 Extension and other ag groups across the

9 country to get the publication in the hands of

10 growers. If you have grower networks that you

11 think can benefit from this information --

12 that couldn't possibly be three minutes,

13 Michelle. I think it was running when I got

14 up here, so I'm going to -- if you indulge me,

15 I'm just going to finish up here.

16 So take a look at the publication,

17 help us spread it around.

18 I have two areas I want to focus

19 on. One is research priorities. We gave you

20 written comments and we really support all of

21 the priorities you've identified, but we have

22 sort of two key thoughts for you here.
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1 One is that anything you can do to

2 get that list of priorities consolidated into

3 some theme so that you can really send a

4 strong message about what the true priorities

5 should be. For us, our recommendation to you

6 would be the top of that list would be natural

7 alternatives to synthetics on the National

8 List.

9 We need some help and public

10 investment into this research so that we can

11 find these alternatives and move forward in a

12 way that is not disruptive to growers and

13 ranchers and hard-working certified operators,

14 meets the needs of the public to minimize the

15 use of synthetics in organic, and provide for

16 judicious review. So if you guys do anything

17 in your research priorities, send that strong,

18 clear message.

19 The other thing is we need organic

20 representation on those boards that advise the

21 Secretary on how to use public funds to

22 support research. So we have to have our
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1 voice in those boards like we have our voice

2 here in this room. So we encourage you to

3 pursue that.

4 The other area I want to talk

5 about is the GMO seed purity discussion

6 document, and recognize a momentous challenge

7 you guys have taken on in even beginning this

8 discussion. So I know it's been very, very

9 difficult.

10 We have recognized that seed

11 purity is the foundation of being able to

12 provide an organic product to the consumer

13 that meets their expectations in terms of

14 non-GMO status for that final product and

15 throughout the supply chain.

16 We think it's fantastic that the

17 program has already suggested that the work

18 plan could include some work on

19 recommendations for best practices to minimize

20 commingling and contamination of the supply

21 chain.

22 Certifiers and inspectors need
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1 training on how to utilize the residue testing

2 rule in a way that is well-informed in terms

3 of the methodology that they choose when they

4 pull tests and where they pull tests and that

5 they have the skills to conduct these

6 investigations that are required whenever they

7 find positives.

8 We really recognize that a lot of

9 stakeholders have raised some very important

10 issues in the challenges of implementing a

11 seed purity standard in organic, and those --

12 in my mind, the most important of them are can

13 we do this in a way and move forward where no

14 organic farmer gets left behind, because I

15 think we all agree on how important that is.

16 And in addition to that, this

17 well-founded belief in the organic community

18 that the organic producers and handlers

19 shouldn't be the ones who continue to take on

20 the burden and the cost of contamination

21 prevention and testing in the marketplace.

22 So as our task force explored
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1 this, and we identified it a little bit in our

2 comments, but I want to put it out there as

3 what might be a creative idea to continue

4 forward on your work here. And the idea is --

5 the program outlined this morning that the 5

6 percent requirement for residue testing

7 already applies to GMOs and investigations are

8 required in the organic system.

9 Consider and get some stakeholder

10 input perhaps on this idea that a seed purity

11 standard could be applied to non-organic seed

12 that's utilized on organic farms under the

13 commercial availability provision for crops

14 that have deregulated comparables that the

15 seed provider could be required to provide on

16 the seed bag as part of the certificate

17 analysis a declaration of seed purity, and

18 that this would be the way that certifiers

19 would verify that the non-organic seed met the

20 requirements for not including excluded

21 methods.

22 So when the seed comes outside of
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1 the organic system, require that under that

2 commercial availability the seed bag declare

3 its seed purity status. The seed providers

4 will be responsible for that testing and

5 declaration.

6 And it would go a long way I think

7 to incentivize organic production in seed,

8 protect our farmers and help us take a baby

9 step towards this. So that's our idea.

10 Questions?

11 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank

12 you, Laura. You don't win the mug.

13 (General laughter.)

14 MS. BATCHA: It was already

15 rolling when I got --

16 CHAIR STONE: I know.

17 MS. BATCHA: -- up here, Mac.

18 CHAIR STONE: I know.

19 Any questions? Hang on, Laura.

20 Question, John?

21 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: So on that

22 last idea, did you talk about that with the
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1 certifier -- the certification community

2 knowing -- I mean they'd have to go through

3 the verification of that and to what extent

4 have you kind of talked to either ACA or other

5 certifiers --

6 MS. BATCHA: Yeah, it's --

7 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: -- about that?

8 MS. BATCHA: -- it's not a simple

9 idea and it just came up in the last couple of

10 weeks as our task forces really struggled with

11 how do you move forward and take a step and

12 meet all the needs that have been identified.

13 So it hasn't been fully vetted with the

14 certification community, and it should be.

15 But I will say they already verify

16 all non-organic ingredients that come into the

17 system. John, you know this, it's just done

18 through affidavits, and this is just a way to

19 say, A paper signed affidavit isn't quite

20 enough in regards to our seed purity. Right?

21 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Hey, Laura. I
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1 don't want to put you on the spot, so you

2 don't have to answer this, but I'll give you

3 the chance if you'd like to. You know, you've

4 been listening today to all these comments on

5 Sunset and these changes, and obviously you

6 work with an industry that relies heavily on

7 consumer trust, and we all want to see that

8 industry grow.

9 Are there any things that you've

10 heard today that you view as potentially

11 problematic in terms of long term, and, you

12 know, preserving trust and growing the market?

13 MS. BATCHA: Thanks, Jay. I

14 haven't had a chance to review Consumer

15 Reports' survey because it just came out, but

16 I'm looking forward to it, and we have a

17 tremendous amount of respect for the work that

18 those folks do. So I'm looking to digging

19 into that. We do surveys every year.

20 The consumer trust in the seal is

21 the most important thing for the long-term

22 viability of organic agriculture, food and
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1 farming. We believe that that trust is really

2 a three-legged stool. It includes judicious

3 review of synthetics that are used only when

4 that OFPA criteria is met, and the judicious

5 regular review of those through the Sunset

6 process.

7 It also includes standards

8 development that keeps up with the expectation

9 that the consumer has for what the organic

10 seal means. We were thrilled to hear not only

11 spoken, but in the presentation, that there is

12 the intention to use some of this capacity to

13 move forward animal welfare standards within

14 the National Organic Program.

15 This is something that's a long

16 time coming with a tremendous amount of

17 debate, and is one of the single most

18 important things that can shore up confidence

19 long term.

20 I think the third leg of that

21 stool is the compliance and enforcement. And,

22 we've got to continue to encourage the program
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1 to shorten those appeal times, and you guys

2 are doing a tremendous amount of good work on

3 this.

4 I think I raised for you guys

5 yesterday, Jay, and interested in further

6 discussion that we're concerned about that 50

7 percent of complaints that are out -- or

8 uncertified operations that fall into a black

9 hole where there's no ability for anybody to

10 follow up on these. The FTC's not taking up

11 the issue, it's outside of the jurisdiction

12 for NOP to follow up on the complaints.

13 So there are three important areas

14 we need to focus on in terms of that consumer

15 confidence.

16 So what I've heard today but I

17 think -- I'm not sure I would characterize it

18 as a concern, but the discussion resonated

19 with me and I'm not sure you guys got all the

20 way there, were some of the questions that you

21 had, Jean, trying to clarify how the role of

22 the subcommittee and the full Board plays out
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1 under the new Sunset process.

2 And I encourage you to follow that

3 thread. I serve on a FACA board where I'm in

4 the minority, and there's basically five of us

5 of 15 in AC 21, and I know at the end of the

6 day there are a lot of things that will not go

7 the way I want them to in the end, but I

8 really find it important to have my voice and

9 my say, and make sure that I understand that

10 there's going to be room for that.

11 So you guys keep pulling that

12 thread and find out what you need for

13 assurance so the subcommittee brings the

14 discussion to the full Board, and then if you

15 all feel like you need to be on the record on

16 every vote, express that and try to engage

17 that as a request.

18 Because I think that that would be

19 an understandable need on behalf of the

20 volunteers to make sure that those things get

21 brought forward. So that interested me the

22 most in that follow-up discussion. So I know,
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1 Jean, you were leading that. I encourage you

2 to continue to pull that thread.

3 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you,

4 Laura. Thank you very much.

5 (General applause.)

6 CHAIR STONE: Diana, you hiding

7 behind the post over there I think.

8 MS. ELIZALDE: Sorry.

9 CHAIR STONE: Very good. You can

10 complete the oral testimony today. Thank you.

11 MS. ELIZALDE: Hello. My name is

12 Diana Elizalde, and I live here in San

13 Antonio, Texas. I'm going to be very brief.

14 Earlier this morning, a person here challenged

15 me with technical jargon. He also asked me if

16 I believed everything I read.

17 I could not answer him at that

18 time. And I just want to say something.

19 There are people that use their knowledge to

20 help and educate other people. And there are

21 other people that use their knowledge to

22 overpower the less educated people.
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1 The truth is I am just an average

2 citizen searching for a healthier way of life.

3 I do not know any of the technical terms of

4 the exact name of all the synthetic

5 ingredients that are being added to organic

6 food. That's the reason I am here, to get

7 educated, not to get offended by people that

8 have more knowledge that I do.

9 When I first discovered organic

10 food, I immediately started buying products

11 with a USDA organic label. I fed my daughter

12 organic formula, thinking that it was the best

13 choice. Two years later, I found out that

14 this formula contained several synthetic

15 ingredients.

16 I had to recognize it was my fault

17 for not reading the labels. And I was also

18 uneducated. I was new to organic. And to

19 this day I'm still no expert about the

20 subject. That's why I'm here.

21 But one thing I do know is that

22 something cannot be completely or 100 percent
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1 organic if it has anything synthetic in it, or

2 any synthetic ingredients.

3 When I go grocery shopping and I

4 see the USDA organic label, that is the

5 product I choose in good faith. My loved ones

6 and I are the ones eating this type of food.

7 I don't promote the consumption of this

8 organic food to scientists, or activists or

9 other people with certification in organic

10 food.

11 I try to promote -- I'm sorry -- I

12 promote the consumption of organic food to

13 friends and family. How can I continue to

14 promote organic food if most people in my

15 community believe organic food is a hoax?

16 Contrary to popular belief, the

17 USDA organic label has been losing

18 credibility. Someone mentioned earlier that

19 they were trying to be as transparent as

20 possible.

21 Let me say something, trying is

22 doing something with the intention of fail,
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1 therefore trying to be transparent as possible

2 is not enough. You have to do everything in

3 your power to make it transparent.

4 My question today is, why does the

5 Board need to bid on synthetic ingredients

6 that can be added to organic food? That is

7 not even -- that shouldn't even be a question.

8 Synthetic ingredients should not be in organic

9 food period. Adding synthetic ingredients to

10 organic food defeats the whole purpose and it

11 goes against its own principle.

12 If you keep approving synthetic

13 ingredients in organic food, there's a big

14 chance that it will never stop. Adding

15 synthetic ingredients is unacceptable and it

16 needs to stop immediately. If you continue

17 approving synthetic ingredients, we'll be back

18 to square one where we don't even know what's

19 in our food again.

20 The comments of this citizen --

21 the comments of the citizens here today must

22 be taken into consideration because we are the
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1 consumers and we are the ones buying. We are

2 the ones going to the grocery store, and when

3 we go grocery shopping, we want to know that

4 the food we are buying is 100 percent organic,

5 and it's been raised and grown with

6 traditional organic practices.

7 The USDA was established to

8 protect the welfare of the people and not for

9 industry pocketbooks. Please don't let the

10 USDA organic label lose the credibility and

11 trust of the people. Don't let organic food

12 turn into an illusion. Let's keep organic

13 food real. Thank you.

14 (General applause.)

15 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Diana.

16 That concludes the agenda for

17 today. I wanted to take a little latitude of

18 the Chair, and we have a t-shirt that I think

19 goes to the most heartfelt of the comments

20 today.

21 Cynthia, I'd like you to have this

22 t-shirt.
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1 MS. KURKOWSKI: Oh, thank you.

2 (General applause.)

3 CHAIR STONE: Thank you for, all

4 of you, for taking your time as individuals,

5 and for the work that you do on behalf of the

6 organics in a greater scale.

7 So tomorrow we'll reconvene at

8 8:30, and we're scheduled to recess at 5:30

9 tomorrow afternoon. So thank you all for your

10 attention.

11 And, Board, thank you all very

12 much. And, see you in the morning.

13 (Whereupon, at 6:27 p.m., the

14 meeting was adjourned.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

$1,000 289:6,22

$100 236:21

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$11-1/2 237:19

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$200,000 150:9,18

$2100 307:16 310:4

$35 199:15

$40,000 393:12

$400,000 29:13

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$50,000 150:12

$7 200:9

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abbreviated 40:14

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ability 28:5 73:1

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388:22 390:17

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adding 78:5 230:2

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addition 54:5,16

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154:2,10 194:20

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68:1,4,6,16 71:22

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Affairs 24:9 129:7

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131:8 133:16

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affidavits 449:18

affiliation 37:13

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193:15 195:10

290:14 350:5

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aids 79:2,4 115:20

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aims 274:3

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alcohol 389:16

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algaes 337:17

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algicides 104:22

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align 112:21 115:11

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alkali 404:4

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all's 25:6,9 39:21

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alleging 297:4

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analyze 160:13

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anybody 261:1

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anymore 38:14

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362:4

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appeal 9:12,15 11:7

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134:15 145:2,15

225:22 226:5

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monobutyl 103:18

monoxide 100:20

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month 253:5

months 71:12

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225:20 227:11,13

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Morgan 417:18

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morning 4:4 16:20

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motive 335:20

move 9:17 20:11

62:7 75:13 76:10

84:1 96:21 120:7

123:10 132:14

144:16 146:19

151:11,21 153:19

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267:17 290:21

321:11 324:1

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446:13 449:11

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movement 298:18

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moving 16:10

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211:14 223:16

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330:21 348:11

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mug 293:8 294:16

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mulch 19:4 226:7

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mulching 273:12

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multiple 112:4

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mushrooms 226:6

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217:2,14 223:19

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277:19 278:17

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63:19 64:11,14

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91:20 92:6,10,17

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215:7 216:13

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229:16,21 230:12

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231:3,9 232:13

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235:10 236:5,10

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236:21,22 237:5,6

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public/private

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putting 141:17

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227:22 237:10

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puzzle 119:8

Q

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QCS 320:15,15

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qualification

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qualified 71:18

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R

R 195:6

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radiation 437:19

rainfall 422:3

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raising 314:2

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Ram 311:15,17

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Ramkrishnan

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rampant 278:14

ranchers 380:12

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ranches 442:5

Rangan 309:5

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range 34:11 45:11

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rapidly 207:20

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raspberries 421:1

rat 335:3 344:2

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rationale 240:7

reach 89:16 128:20

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readily 401:5

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ready 64:4 86:2

276:6 294:18

real 169:16 191:19

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411:18 412:13

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458:13

reality 180:20

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realize 178:15

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reason 19:19 76:1

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reasons 67:18

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recommendation

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WhiteWave 297:7

297:20

wholeheartedly

410:20

Whoo 385:1,1

wide 373:20 392:7

434:2

Wiegand 434:22

438:16,18,20,22

wife 28:10 401:17

wild 350:13,14

368:15,21

wildlife 351:21

352:13 353:21

willful 213:12

220:13,18

willfully 296:21

willing 343:18

423:13 441:11

willingness 74:6

312:18

win 448:12

winding 293:2

wine 37:5 388:1,8

wines 105:17

388:13,15,15,22

winners 334:6

winter 350:16

355:9

winters 422:2

Wisconsin 34:9

wise 321:8,11

wish 427:16

wishes 182:21

withdraw 77:6

withdrawn 335:5

women 73:6

wonderful 401:21

wondering 120:13

239:8 262:22

286:14 289:12

300:15 356:18

401:21

wonk 142:5

wood 229:13

word 15:18 30:11

30:12,14 195:21

246:17 302:8

352:5 361:16

431:16

words 173:14

180:11 186:17

work 5:17,18,18

8:3 19:14 21:13

21:13 22:18 28:14

29:6 32:20 34:12

37:12,21 38:5

42:14 45:17 46:9

46:12 47:3 48:3

49:7,9,12,21 66:7

66:12 70:3 73:1

76:9 77:11 78:5,7

78:21 79:7,11,14

79:15 80:1,3,4,14

85:20 86:6,13,14

88:4,7,8,10,14,15

89:4 93:16,18

112:5 118:7

120:21 124:10

125:4 127:19

128:9,18,21 129:5

129:14,14,16

130:15 132:18
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137:22 140:3

143:8,9,17 147:15

147:16,20 150:11

150:15,15,21

153:17,21 165:17

174:10 175:2

180:2,4 182:12

183:12 199:10

200:16,20,20

201:4,6 203:14,17

205:3 206:2,5

209:18 211:16,21

212:2,3,6 216:1

216:19 217:20

222:5 224:18

225:1,6 235:12

242:12 246:19

249:15,17 250:10

250:18 251:1

252:20,20 253:16

253:19 255:12

259:10 265:5

266:9 268:4 269:3

269:13 274:3

275:6 278:2

286:18,21 290:8

290:14,17 303:6

305:10 306:10

318:17 336:21

340:20 341:2

345:11 347:22

348:11,13 356:1,3

357:1,6 358:14

359:8 362:5 363:4

377:11 382:2

383:2 386:21

398:3 421:18

427:18 439:10

440:21 445:17,18

447:4 450:6,17

452:2 459:5

workable 360:19

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19:11 33:20 34:18

76:8 85:2 213:19

217:6 247:2

257:18,22 391:18

workers 35:21

327:20 382:20

workforce 252:11

working 18:15

36:22 38:9 40:9

49:9 76:20 77:22

79:1 88:5 116:12

119:21 120:2

122:11 132:17

146:15 167:20

176:13 200:8

205:18 211:12

216:2 220:6

226:22 238:22

247:9,12,18 250:7

252:21 253:22

257:13 261:11

266:12 277:1

278:16 281:12

284:3 286:2

298:21 318:21

334:10 354:14

355:8 356:21

374:2 380:10

417:7 443:7

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247:15 330:9

394:3 427:7

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440:17

world's 335:13

368:12

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340:2 349:8

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wrapped 357:22

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writing 90:2 182:3

276:11

written 9:21 19:17

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51:5,9 52:1,8 65:6

67:17 85:17

158:13,16 160:13

160:20 292:13,15

292:18 309:14

339:10 344:12

345:3 363:16

374:16 442:16

443:20

wrong 261:14

295:21 315:14

346:17 350:9

359:7 427:19

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190:13 193:16

195:16 239:13

240:9 252:12

285:1 286:19

290:7 304:18

318:2 402:1

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415:5 416:6,18

441:6 449:6

year 18:22 19:10

24:18 31:19 32:11

33:3 48:11,12

68:1 71:3 76:17

79:1 84:19 86:16

99:18 105:16

129:22 130:3

132:19 142:3

150:10,18 153:12

166:8,11 171:21

191:5 200:8

201:14 203:1

204:19 209:21

211:9 214:4,5

217:16 224:21

228:12 230:3

233:10 235:6

243:13 248:19

251:8 281:11

282:19 285:18

310:18 324:5

338:11 358:20

361:10 377:10

408:3 413:7,17

416:19 418:5

428:18 442:9

450:19

year-and-a-half

245:17 252:11

284:1

yearly 209:11

217:4

years 18:19 19:21

28:15,21 29:10,21

31:21 33:21 37:10

37:20 42:5 44:8

44:12,20 50:11

56:17 62:3 64:3

65:15 76:9 90:21

145:4 150:22

151:16 152:7

155:5 166:5

175:11 181:6

189:13 190:5

214:2,6 217:1

228:9 230:8

239:14 241:6

245:13,17 258:5

262:11 266:13

289:2,7,11 295:7

295:13 303:13

315:10 322:21

356:17,21 365:11

372:7 383:10

386:12,13 395:5

402:8 430:8,10

433:7 455:13

yeast 402:9

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yesterday 22:17

43:6 79:18 89:21

181:13 268:12

282:10 286:20

452:5

yielded 80:14

youth 346:7

Z

Zak 434:22 438:16

438:21 440:22

Zea 1:19 10:11

36:17 38:22

182:15 288:21

339:15

Zealand 205:15

206:15

Zirkle 37:2

zones 221:2

Zurich 27:3

0

1

1,000 394:10

1,500 97:17

1:45 194:22

1:49 195:5,7

10 200:7 230:8

288:10 295:6

422:16

10,000 298:7

100 131:8,22

239:14,15 270:19

335:8 365:10

409:18 455:22

458:4

100-member

391:20

101 252:9

101.2 6:7

101.6 6:6

102 239:7

105 192:6

11,470 438:3
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12:40 194:21 195:4

120 323:9

1200 273:3

13 7:12 97:15

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131 133:5 137:9

138 276:3 277:11

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14 7:12 26:4 200:12

14-15 31:21

140 150:1

1400 358:16 439:6

141 62:18

148 214:14

15 25:4 26:3 38:9

59:1 75:9 98:12

119:4 190:5

288:11 291:5

453:5

15-member 372:1

15,000 436:21

16 172:17 173:1

184:19

160 150:1

169 62:19 63:1

16th 171:21

17 184:19

17,000 437:16

17011 211:4

18 33:21 213:11

18,000 359:19

437:17

180 214:19

196 3:12

1970s 343:6

1980s 296:2

1990 58:9 86:10

296:1 302:15

1995 190:22

1996 190:22

1997 359:6

1999 72:20 73:11

190:2,5,9 229:22

334:20

2

20 37:10 224:22

231:8 239:11

200 190:16 191:16

230:21 231:4

2002 75:18 86:14

86:16 239:7,14

2003 229:22 322:4

415:6

2005 79:5 322:10

2007 107:6,17

2009 19:22 204:14

245:7 355:4

2010 105:4 245:2

2011 214:3,13

246:3 423:20

2012 62:18 63:1

200:10 204:15

246:3 253:19

263:17 351:3

352:15 354:7

2013 75:18 85:1,8

86:16,20 90:16

133:5 171:21

201:14 213:10

217:4,18 218:9

228:14 238:2

246:1,3 402:7

2014 1:7 4:6 85:20

208:22 214:19

225:16 234:15

235:8 250:10

257:11

2015 74:16 105:6

105:14 157:22

158:5,16,19

159:21 168:10

183:21 192:12

245:7

2016 399:5

2017 165:21 190:15

192:5

2018 338:12

2019 165:21 433:16

2020 74:16

203 287:9

205.200 287:8

351:19

205.201 287:8

205.202 287:8

205.270(a) 404:11

205.600(b) 115:21

205.601 100:9,14

205.601(e) 104:18

205.603 101:17,19

102:13 404:15,18

205.605 103:14

104:4 403:5

205.605(b) 103:16

402:5 404:13

205.606 104:7

105:18 403:6

205.607 106:18

20th 369:17

21 264:15 402:12

453:5

2103 373:3

2119 6:2 106:13

21st 263:8 334:22

24 3:3

243 3:14

25 29:21 203:1

245:5 394:12

408:8

25,000 199:14,18

201:5

260 213:14

265 3:17

27 6:18 204:16,16

29 1:7 3:4

291 3:20

3

3 29:12 264:9

3/20/17 165:20

3:45 291:8

3:54 294:19

30 108:10 140:11

267:3

30,000 252:8

300 1:10 421:18

33 43:10,15

344 214:4

36 437:6

37,000 437:7

39 392:7

4

4 3:2

4,000 358:19

40 3:6 231:10

400 358:20

41 6:6 338:11

44 315:10

45 291:6

459 3:22

48 393:21

5

5 72:5 217:3,17

394:12 447:5

5:30 459:8

50 226:15 355:10

452:6

50-pound 421:16

6

6.369 200:11

6:27 459:13

60 110:20 138:9

190:8 270:7

355:16

63 203:3

6518 6:3

66 316:1

7

7 6:2

71 315:4

750 389:16

8

8.1 413:11

8:30 1:9 459:8

80,000 301:6

81 335:10

818283 424:5

84 3:8 199:13 201:4

239:7 305:4 315:7

343:16

85 279:19

86 316:3

87 292:9

88 316:8

89 292:9

9

9 97:15 241:10

361:12

9:03 5:6

9:06 4:2 5:7

9:17 14:21

9:19 14:22

90 214:21 288:14

308:1

90-day 136:19

94 355:19

95 201:15

99 3:10

99.9 421:14

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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE (AMS)

 NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM (NOP)

 + + + + +

 MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIC

 STANDARDS BOARD (NOSB)

 + + + + +

 WEDNESDAY

 APRIL 30, 2014

 + + + + +

 The National Organic Standards

Board convened at 8:32 a.m. at the Saint

Anthony Hotel, 300 East Travis Street, San

Antonio, Texas, Robert "Mac" Stone,

Chairperson, presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT

ROBERT "MAC" STONE, Chairperson

JOHN FOSTER, Vice Chairperson

CALVIN WALKER, NOSB Secretary

HAROLD AUSTIN

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

JOSEPH DICKSON

TRACY FAVRE

JAY FELDMAN

WENDY FULWIDER

NICHOLAS MARAVELL

JEAN RICHARDSON

ZEA SONNABEND

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE
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STAFF PRESENT

MILES McEVOY, Deputy Administrator, National

 Organic Program

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board

 Specialist

MELISSA BAILEY, Director, Standards

 Division, National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, Standards Division, National

 Organic Program
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS

 Page

Open Meeting and Welcome

 Chair Stone..................... 5

Public Comment

 Jackie Townsend................. 6

 Isaura Andaluz.................. 13

 Pamela Coleman.................. 21

 Laura Cardona................... 31

 Bill Wolf....................... 36

 Brian Keegan.................... 47

 Lindsay Fernandez-Salvador...... 51

 Gwendolyn Wyard................. 62

 Allyson Kelly................... 73

 Romalda Allsup.................. 80

 Cindy Elder..................... 84

 Tim Miller...................... 89

 Steve Walker.................... 93

 Allen Lewis..................... 97

 Ib Hagsten...................... 101

 Margo Mastroud.................. 106

 Amanda Love..................... 109

 Gerald Davis.................... 113

 Terry Gong...................... 118

 Andy Hudson..................... 122

 Dragan Macura................... 130

 Nate Lewis...................... 135

 Rebecca Thistlewaite............ 140

 Ernie Peterson.................. 150

 Chris Pierce.................... 156

 Melvin Gaiman................... 164

 Randy Mitchell.................. 171

 Paige Tomaselli................. 179

 Ashley Swaffer.................. 188

 David Will...................... 191

 John Brunquell.................. 202

 Amy Simpson..................... 206

 Jim Winter...................... 210

 Dan Giacomini................... 218

 Ann Mosness..................... 224
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS (Con't.)

 Page

 Jim Pierce...................... 233

 Harriet Behar................... 240

 Rebecca Willows................. 246

 Lynn Coody...................... 253

 Bill Denevan.................... 259

 David Moore..................... 271

 Alexis Randolph................. 276

 Patricia Kane................... 280

 Jessica Walden.................. 282

 Charlotte Vallaeys.............. 287

 Will Fantle..................... 291

 Troy Aykan...................... 295

 Cheryl VanDyne.................. 299

 Allison Walent.................. 307

 Joy Rockwell.................... 310

 Brad Rockwell................... 314

 Lisa Stokke..................... 317

 Beth Unger...................... 322

 Zareb Herman.................... 325

 Peggy Miars..................... 328

 Marty Mesh...................... 334

 John Ashby...................... 338

CROPS SUBCOMMITTEE

 Zea Sonnabend, Chairperson...... 344

 Proposal: Streptomycin.......... 347

 Proposal: Magnesium Oxide....... 377

 Proposal: Vinasse............... 387

 Proposal: Laminarin............ 405

 SUNSET REVIEW LIST

 Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate.. 428

 Aqueous Potassium Silicate...... 442

 Sulfurous Acid.................. 451

Wrap-up and Adjourn

 Chair Stone..................... 464
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (8:32 a.m.)

3 CHAIR STONE: We've got quite a

4 bit of public comment to work through this

5 morning, a little bit into the afternoon and

6 then the committee deliberations will start

7 mid-afternoon, I believe.

8 Is there any questions from Board

9 Members, any thoughts before we get started

10 here? You're good? I see Michelle is getting

11 some PowerPoints squared away there.

12 (Pause.)

13 CHAIR STONE: Okay, we are all

14 here and we want to stay on schedule. We want

15 to give everybody time to present. We want to

16 have the Board time for questions. I think it

17 worked well. I appreciate the Board Members

18 for their respectful judicious use of

19 questions and time yesterday. I thought it

20 worked well.

21 Audience members, I very much

22 appreciate the respect for the time slot. I
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1 very much appreciate those of you presenting

2 respecting the time clock because it is

3 respect for your fellow community members.

4 And it gives us time for questions to get to

5 specific topics that you can help us in our

6 deliberations here.

7 With no further ado, Jackie

8 Townsend, if you will make your way to the

9 podium. And we have Isaura Andaluz on deck.

10 Jackie, thank you. Michelle, are

11 you ready? Okay.

12 MS. TOWNSEND: Good morning. My

13 name is Jackie Townsend. I am the MOSA

14 Certification Review and Farm Certification

15 Manager. MOSA certifies almost 1600 farmers

16 and processors located, primarily, in the

17 Midwest.

18 We are fortunate to be in Viroqua,

19 in the heart of a thriving organic community.

20 We are the largest livestock certifier in the

21 nation.

22 First, I will comment on
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1 methionine. When the proposal was first

2 released, we sent a survey out to our

3 certified chicken farmers and chicken feed

4 manufacturers. The message we received was

5 one of support. However, it also raised

6 concerns for animal welfare with the current

7 annotations in the rule and with broiler

8 nutritional needs not being met.

9 For hens, nutritionists said that

10 the methionine levels over the life of the

11 bird would not exceed the proposed level

12 generally anyway. So, we feel the record13 keeping in this area could be made pretty

14 practical under the proposal. Our written

15 comments we submitted last fall expand on this

16 further.

17 This is a nice segue into the next

18 topic, which is research priorities.

19 Methionine alternatives area clearly a need.

20 So are antibiotics for fire blight and GMO

21 vaccines. We would like to see some

22 prioritization of livestock management topics.
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1 We appreciate the work to move ahead on these

2 topics and are available to help in any way we

3 can.

4 On GMOs, it was great to see the

5 NOP memo to the NOSB. Clearly, this is a

6 research priority, too. Probably kick it to

7 the top of the list. More information is

8 needed on contamination avoidance. The 11/3

9 policy memo was helpful but isn't addressing

10 the current problem.

11 We see clients have their crops

12 being tested in the marketplace, resulting in

13 minorly positive results and organic crop

14 rejection and sale of the crop on the

15 conventional market.

16 Inspections that we do yield very

17 low results, no evidence of GMO use. We

18 recognize how difficult setting limits would

19 be so it may be easier to provide further

20 guidance on testing and sampling.

21 The seed purity report shows the

22 importance of further work in this area. We
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1 need to be sure our seeds are starting out

2 GMO-free and we need time for research and

3 development. We understand but do not agree

4 with the complexities in overall GMO

5 regulation. Onus should be on those polluting

6 the system. Our country should have GMO

7 labeling laws. We have even been approached

8 about adding non-GMO verification but we have

9 no time to consider that, due to our sound and

10 sensible systems implementation. But it may

11 be something to consider on down the road,

12 depending on the outcome of this conversation.

13 Now that I mentioned it, I have to

14 say something about sound and sensible.

15 First, thank you all for taking the subject up

16 so quickly. We appreciate the direction we

17 are headed for clients. We need to ensure

18 practical and sound enforcement of the

19 standards. We just maintain our certification

20 system to withstand the test of time. We must

21 find ways to communicate effectively

22 throughout the industry. We have a strong
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1 desire to see relationships and collaboration

2 between ACAs, NOP, NOSB, and other

3 stakeholders strengthen. Some NOP

4 instructions have added requirements for us.

5 Some will add cost to certification for

6 clients. Some will impact organic

7 availability of product in the marketplace.

8 Some have caused creation of systems or

9 entirely changing the system. Some have

10 resulted in hiring staff or dedicating staff

11 resources. Most require some added expense.

12 Clarifications are generally well13 received and we work to implement them but we

14 need time to catch up and rest for a minute.

15 It would be great to be proactive, rather than

16 reactive. We ask that in developing

17 recommendations and instructions that sounds

18 and sensible principles be kept in line for

19 certifiers. Finding further balance in this

20 area continues to be an important discussion.

21 We appreciate the work of the NOP

22 and NOSB and thank you to Mac for reaching out
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1 to certifiers and representing our industry.

2 We are available for further questions and

3 inquiry at any time.

4 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jackie.

5 So, I know at the ACA training, the certifiers

6 sort of went around the room of how they are

7 implementing sound and sensible and

8 communication with clients and electronic and

9 updates was a big part of that. And we

10 appreciate all you all are doing for the

11 complicated multiple crop farmers. It is not

12 easy at that point.

13 MS. TOWNSEND: Thank you.

14 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jackie.

15 Oh, Francis. I'm sorry, Jackie.

16 MEMBER THICKE: Yes, a question

17 for Jackie. I didn't fully understanding on

18 the methionine. Are you saying that even with

19 the proposed change in the methionine that

20 that is not adequate?

21 MS. TOWNSEND: The reports that we

22 heard, the proposed change for layers would be
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1 entirely adequate, averaged out over the life

2 of the bird but there was some concern raised

3 by nutritionists we spoke to about broiler

4 levels, about the levels not meeting the

5 nutritional need for broilers. They need more

6 methionine during their short lives is some of

7 the reports we heard.

8 MEMBER THICKE: And what size

9 houses are these, the ranging of sizes? Do

10 you know?

11 MS. TOWNSEND: A variety. We

12 certify any number -- many numbers of birds

13 from a few hundred to less than a hundred to

14 multiple thousands. So, those reports came

15 primarily from the nutritionist working at

16 feed manufacturers, as well as the growers

17 growing the birds, a cross-section variety of

18 people.

19 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you.

20 CHAIR STONE: All right, thanks,

21 Jackie.

22 MS. TOWNSEND: Thank you.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Isaura to the podium

2 and Pam Coleman on deck.

3 MS. ANDALUZ: Good morning. My

4 name is Isaura Andaluz and I am the Treasurer

5 of OSGATA, the Organic Sea Growers and Trade

6 Association, a national farmer organization

7 representing certified organic farmers,

8 growers, and seed companies. I am making

9 these comments under protest.

10 OSGATA, as an organization which

11 exists to protect and steward the interests of

12 the organic community, cannot condone, in good

13 conscience, the statutory rights and

14 responsibilities of the NOSB. The NOSB was

15 established by Congress as an independent

16 citizen oversight board under the authority of

17 the Organic Foods Protection Act of 1990.

18 OFPA represents a negotiated framework by

19 which the organic community entered into

20 partnership with the USDA in accepting

21 regulation of the organic industry.

22 OSGATA's role in helping steer the
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1 functioning of the organic industry requires

2 those to insist that the letter and the spirit

3 of the neighboring legislation be respected.

4 It is essential if the NOP is to maintain the

5 participation of certified organic farmers and

6 businesses, and most importantly, to maintain

7 the trust and confidence of the organic

8 consumer.

9 And these are comments regarding

10 the CPAT from GMO. We thank the NOSB for

11 having the courage to recognize the GE

12 movement outside of the areas that they have

13 grown in is a source of pollution and the GE

14 presence is a contaminant to organic seed.

15 Organic begins with seed.

16 OSGATA's policy on genetic

17 engineering states that the contamination of

18 organic seed by GE seed constitutes a

19 repairable harm to the organic seed industry.

20 By undermining the integrity of the organic

21 seed, any detectible level is unacceptable.

22 Farmers are the stewards to these
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1 seeds. As such, we must acknowledge that the

2 increasing rate of GE contamination poses

3 threats to our carefully curated genetics.

4 This externalize cost to contamination is

5 irreplaceable.

6 The presence of GE traits in seed

7 has severe consequences for farmers. One such

8 consequence is the associated cost shouldered

9 by organic farmers as the result of

10 maintaining seed purity. OSGATA used seed

11 testing to identify GE contamination as

12 necessary to maintain the organic seed

13 integrity. Required seed testing and seed

14 purity protocols applied to organic seed must

15 also be applied to conventional seed as done

16 a thousand years by organic farmers.

17 Organic farmers should not bear

18 the economic burden associated with the cost

19 of contamination, including testing, nor

20 should they assume the cost associated with

21 crop loss from the GE contamination and

22 whatever drops on their side of the fence.
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1 The biotechnology of patent holders must bear

2 all costs associated with the polluting

3 technology.

4 OSGATA disagrees with NOSB's

5 conclusion that holding patent holders

6 financially accountable for the cost of

7 contamination is outside the scope of the NOP

8 and USDA. USDA and APHIS must require that

9 the associated costs of contamination be borne

10 by biotech patent holders.

11 As we move forward with

12 implementation of seed purity standards, it is

13 imperative that the NOSB continues to work

14 with stakeholders within the organic seed

15 community.

16 And PCO has got a handbook that I

17 passed out to everyone that we have developed

18 for additional research for testing protocols

19 on GE contamination. Thank you for your time.

20 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, very

21 much.

22 Zea?
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Now is it on?

2 Okay. Thank you for your comments Isaura.

3 What would you suggest further we

4 could do to get the polluter to pay for

5 contamination and for the testing?

6 MS. TOWNSEND: Well, I mean the

7 problem is that you know, because I sit on the

8 AC21 Committee, that they came out with like

9 crop insurance. So, the problem is that these

10 biotech companies can circumvent basically any

11 compensation mechanism that you come up with.

12 So now for example, Monsanto

13 bought up a company in October that offers

14 crop insurance. So now, the polluter is going

15 to be selling the insurance to the people that

16 they are contaminating. Right?

17 So, I mean the problem is that

18 they patent a life form. I mean, it doesn't

19 matter. The seeds do what they are supposed

20 to be doing. They cross-pollinate. Because

21 the seeds are evolving. That is how come we

22 are all here because the seeds have evolved
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1 with the climate change over all these

2 hundreds or thousands of years and the seeds

3 keep evolving by cross-pollinating.

4 So I mean the thing is, like I

5 said before, this is just my thing. It is not

6 OSGATA. They can breed insterility into some

7 of these seeds like they do on a lot of the

8 hybrids. It is not the terminator genes. It

9 is not anything else. It is just -- you know

10 they have been doing this for a long time but

11 they don't want to incur that cost.

12 And if it is a seed that they

13 can't do that to, then maybe that seed should

14 just not be out there on the market.

15 But I mean we are seeing

16 increasing numbers of farmers being

17 contaminated. You can do all the data

18 collection you want but the farmers are not

19 going to tell you what they had because they

20 have infringed on the patent law of the patent

21 holder.

22 So, it is very difficult to gather
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1 this information. And that is why it is when

2 the USDA says we need to get more information.

3 Then you gather information. No. Something

4 needs to be done now and maybe USDA needs to

5 go back and they need to look at all the

6 patent laws that they passed. I mean, this is

7 the existing -- they are going to make us

8 extinct. I mean, there are some seeds already

9 that we know as seed breeders. There is only

10 a minimal amount of seed left that is not

11 contaminated. And I think a lot of the other

12 companies, what they already have been doing,

13 this is like back since 10 or 20 years ago is

14 they have been growing seed in other

15 countries. And that might be what will happen

16 to us is that all of us will have to grow all

17 of our seeds in other countries and bring the

18 seed back here to the United States, where you

19 have basically exported all of those jobs out

20 of the United States.

21 And we already see on the local

22 level that a lot of the seed companies we have
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1 in all of our states are gone. They have been

2 gone.

3 And now with alfalfa, the

4 perennial crop, it is even worse.

5 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

6 Oh, Nick. Isaura, I'm sorry. One more.

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: Sir, I would

8 like to turn the table a little bit here and

9 just ask you what is your best estimation of

10 the future work or mission of the AC 21

11 Committee. Being a member of that committee,

12 have you received any indication of the future

13 direction of that committee or the mission of

14 that committee's charge now?

15 MS. TOWNSEND: No, we have not.

16 We have just been waiting for the funding to

17 continue the work of the AC 21. There is no

18 -- nothing is set is yet.

19 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, very

20 much.

21 Pam Coleman to the podium and

22 Laura Cardona on deck.
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1 DR. COLEMAN: Good morning. My

2 name is Pamela Coleman. I am a policy analyst

3 for the Cornucopia Institute. I have a Ph.D.

4 in plant pathology and experience as an

5 organic inspector. Today, I will discuss the

6 use of streptomycin to control fire blight in

7 apples and pears.

8 Three years' ago, the Crops

9 Subcommittee recommended against the relisting

10 of streptomycin. The full Board compromised.

11 They voted to relist but only until 2014.

12 Now, it is 2014. This week, I urge you to

13 respect the work of the NOSB in the past and

14 oppose this petition for extension of

15 streptomycin.

16 Streptomycin is not essential.

17 Other options are available. Moreover, its

18 effectiveness has been reduced in many

19 orchards because the bacteria that control

20 fire blight have developed resistance due to

21 repeated applications of streptomycin.

22 My review of the research has
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1 convinced me that fire blight can be managed

2 without the use of antibiotics. Canadians,

3 Europeans, Japanese, all of them are growing

4 apples without antibiotics. Why aren't we

5 doing that?

6 Well, actually, we are doing that.

7 Many apple growers in Washington State avoid

8 the use of antibiotics, so that they can sell

9 their organic applies in Europe. They grow

10 popular and even highly susceptible varieties:

11 Gala, Fuji, Braeburn, Pink Lady, Honey Crisp,

12 all without the use of antibiotics.

13 Cornucopia surveyed apple growers

14 all over the U.S. and of those who responded,

15 more than half of them said they don't use

16 antibiotics. Success depends on an integrated

17 approach. Orchardists must be proactive.

18 They must monitor the orchard and take action

19 to prevent disease outbreaks early in the

20 season. This is what the organic approach is

21 all about. It is different from the

22 conventional approach of waiting until disease
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1 is present and then spraying antibiotics.

2 There are many options, as well as

3 antibiotics. There are cultural practices,

4 resistant root stalks, blossom thinning,

5 material such as copper sulfate, lime sulfur,

6 fish oils.

7 I am especially excited about the

8 new biological controls that are showing

9 excellent results. Dr. Ken Johnson talked

10 about those and it has been widely -- the

11 information has been widely disseminated

12 through eOrganic. The biological controls

13 were as effective as antibiotics, even on

14 susceptible apples. Comments for this meeting

15 submitted by Westbridge, who manufactures the

16 biological control Blossom Protect, also

17 showed more research that that product is as

18 effective as antibiotics, even on pears which

19 are susceptible and highly susceptible apples.

20 Please reject this petition.

21 American orchardists are fully capable of

22 using an integrated approach to manage fire
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1 blight. Those of you sitting here can end the

2 use of antibiotics and protect the organic

3 brand. If you reject this petition today,

4 next year, when you go out to buy your organic

5 apple juice that say 100 percent USA apples,

6 these apples will have been grown without

7 antibiotics. Won't that be a good feeling?

8 I am happy to answer questions.

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Pamela.

10 Harold?

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: Good morning, Pam.

12 In the research and stuff that you were able

13 to go through and take a look at, what did you

14 find different as far as fire blight's

15 acceptability to control measures with pears?

16 Because in your written -- Cornucopia's

17 written statements, they did suggest that

18 there might possible need to be consideration

19 for pear growers because the research -- the

20 level of research hasn't taken place and the

21 effectiveness of the materials isn't quite

22 there yet.
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1 What have you found?

2 DR. COLEMAN: I have found that

3 the materials are effective. However, you are

4 right, there has been fewer experiments on

5 pears, partly because there is fewer pears

6 grown. And you are correct, pears are

7 naturally more susceptible.

8 If it is possible to differentiate

9 between apples and pears in your approval of

10 this petition, then that might be a reasonable

11 compromise to say extend the use for pears.

12 There is a couple of reasons why I

13 think it would be organically acceptable to

14 allow antibiotics on pears but not apples. We

15 talk a lot about the organic approach. And

16 the organic approach is to use a multi-level

17 way to prevent diseases. So, you start with

18 cultural practices. And from what I have seen

19 in Washington State, the pear growers are

20 using cultural practices. Their pruning

21 practices are such that they have many

22 branches to the tree, so that the tree doesn't
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1 die if it gets fire blight. Also, they have

2 older trees and older trees are less

3 susceptible to fire blight. And they do not

4 use the dwarfing rootstocks.

5 One of the reasons that fire

6 blight has become so serious in Washington

7 State is because more and more apple growers

8 are planting trees on the highly dwarfing

9 rootstocks that are more susceptible and have

10 the smaller trees.

11 So, my concern here is that I am

12 seeing that apple growers are relying first on

13 antibiotics and not using the cultural

14 controls but the pear growers I am seeing are

15 using the cultural controls. And if they are

16 not efficient, if they are not enough, then

17 you can use materials. And I think that is

18 consistent with an organic approach.

19 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thanks, Pam. I

21 am interested in your comment on the age of

22 the trees and the resistance to the fire
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1 blight as a result of the -- we had the

2 opportunity as a Board to visit the Mount Hood

3 area in Oregon and saw a number of sites,

4 which included an older orchard of pears --

5 pear trees, which seemed to be, well at least

6 according to the grower, the fire blight did

7 not seem to be pressure there in that

8 particular orchard.

9 So, I guess you raise a complexity

10 here that I am wondering about because you

11 suggested this might be a compromise. If in

12 fact there are specific conditions under which

13 the streptomycin, in this case, would not be

14 necessary in pear production and if in fact

15 the problem is associated with younger trees,

16 would you suggest that in a compromise such as

17 this that there be a delineation made between

18 the type or orchard or the age of the orchard,

19 the age of the tree, given the essentiality

20 under those conditions?

21 I am just trying to understand,

22 especially when you raise the idea of
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1 compromise, whether the complexity of what you

2 are suggesting goes beyond the compromise

3 between apples and pears but really strikes at

4 some of the conditions, even within the

5 growing of pears that might differentiate the

6 essentiality or the need for streptomycin in

7 different age orchards, maybe different

8 varieties, maybe different rootstocks.

9 I mean you focused on apples but

10 what about pears and the differentiation

11 there?

12 DR. COLEMAN: Okay, I just want to

13 clarify when you talk about age, are you

14 suggesting this only for pears? Because I

15 really do believe -- is this still on? I

16 can't tell if you can hear me. Can you hear

17 me? Thank you, Michelle. Michelle hears me

18 very well.

19 I am not sure if you are asking

20 just about the complexity for pears or apples

21 as well.

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Pears.
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1 DR. COLEMAN: Okay. Because I

2 think if you start allowing it for young

3 apples, then you get too complicated for the

4 certifiers.

5 I want to just keep stressing that

6 it is a complex issue. So, there are so many

7 factors that combine. Age of the trees is one

8 of them; rootstocks is one of them; the way

9 that pear trees and apple trees flower all at

10 once or dragged out over a long time.

11 So, I am not sure how to answer

12 your question. Are you thinking that possibly

13 you could say that antibiotics would be

14 allowed on young pear trees?

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, I was just

16 trying to understand whether there is another

17 level of complexity that the compromise that

18 might be discussed would not simply be a

19 compromise between apples and pears. You

20 know, sort of cutting the -- splitting the

21 issue here that way. But that even within

22 pears, at least from what I was able to
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1 observe, there is a level of complexity, given

2 cultural practices, age of the orchard. These

3 are all issues that come down to questions of

4 essentiality. And I think, especially with

5 the sensitivity that we see out in the public

6 to the use of antibiotics and food production,

7 given the resistance we are seeing in human

8 populations and the need for antibiotics, that

9 we have to be really careful when we talk

10 about compromise, that we drill down to the

11 really specific levels of essentiality. I

12 mean this is not a broad brush issue. This

13 has to be a very specific issue.

14 So, that was my question, whether

15 we could create those lines that I believe I

16 observed. I mean, unless somebody has a

17 response to that. I mean we did see an older,

18 very old, actually, orchard that did not have

19 the fire blight issue. Now, that could have

20 been also the geoclimate there, whatever, the

21 microclimate that existed in that particular

22 -- I mean there are a lot of factors.
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1 DR. COLEMAN: Right. There are a

2 lot of factors. And I would hate to have a

3 compromise within pears because it would be

4 very confusing to have some treated with

5 antibiotics and others not treated with

6 antibiotics, I believe. But I think you bring

7 a good point up with consumers because I bring

8 this apple juice in because I do think

9 consumers are particularly concerned about

10 apples because it is something that is so

11 commonly drunk, it is so commonly added to so

12 many fruit juices and given to children that

13 I am just extremely concerned that if word

14 gets out that this juice that we are giving

15 our children is grown with apples treated with

16 antibiotics. I think that can do a lot of

17 harm to the organic apple growers and I would

18 not like to see that happen.

19 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Pamela.

20 Okay, Laura to the podium and Bill

21 Wolf on deck.

22 MS. CARDONA: Hello. My name is
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1 Laura Cardona. I am a member of the

2 Cornucopia Institute and here today as a

3 citizen lobbyist.

4 I am actually an autism mom who

5 became extremely interested in organics with

6 my daughter who was failure to thrive for one

7 year, did not gain weight for one year. When

8 I switched her to an organic whole foods diet

9 is when she started to gain weight, after many

10 medical interventions.

11 I volunteered to present testimony

12 because I am concerned about the use of

13 antibiotics on organic apples, as Pamela was

14 talking about. I was happy to learn that the

15 full Board voted to allow tetracycline to be

16 phased out in 2014 and streptomycin should be

17 phased out as well.

18 Consumers who buy organic food

19 want to know that they are avoiding

20 antibiotics and more than 83,000 consumers

21 signed a petition or commented directly to say

22 that they do not want antibiotics in organic
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1 fruit.

2 I am particularly concerned about

3 the threat of antibiotic resistance from the

4 use of streptomycin. Some bacteria, those

5 that cause the fire blight, disease in apples

6 and pears, have already developed resistance

7 to streptomycin, making it less effective in

8 that plant disease.

9 We need to ensure that

10 streptomycin remains effective in controlling

11 human disease. The World Health Organization

12 stated that it is critical to prevent

13 resistance to streptomycin. People who have

14 resistant bacteria in their intestinal flora

15 may not realize it until they have an

16 infection that does not respond to antibiotics

17 and even low doses of streptomycin can

18 increase the likelihood of resistant

19 populations.

20 Farm workers are exposed when they

21 spray the trees and consumers can obviously be

22 exposed when they eat the fruit. Residues of
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1 streptomycin have been found on the apples

2 themselves when the trees were sprayed 86 days

3 before harvest.

4 So, you can rationalize that these

5 are low levels but that is the problem.

6 Exposure to the low levels of antibiotics

7 contributes to the development of antibiotic

8 resistant bacteria.

9 Another example is sheep that were

10 grazed in fields, sprayed with streptomycin,

11 were found to have higher levels of the

12 streptomycin-resistant bacteria. So, I am

13 asking you today to not wait until we see

14 antibiotic resistance in humans. Please allow

15 the use of streptomycin to expire at the end

16 of 2014, as the rules are currently written.

17 On a personal note, I said I am an

18 autism mom and the research shows that 50

19 percent of autistics have GI symptoms, food

20 allergies, and malabsorption issues. For us

21 in our family, healing the gut was so

22 important and crucial to my daughter's
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1 recovery. So, when antibiotics are allowed in

2 organics, it undermines our efforts to heal

3 the gut. And, as you know, antibiotics kill

4 good gut flora.

5 For allergy moms, we need peace of

6 mind knowing that our organic food is as pure

7 as possible.

8 So, if you have more questions

9 about streptomycin, I encourage you to speak

10 again with Pamela Coleman and/or you can

11 actually call her back up now. But thank you

12 so much to keeping our organics strong. I

13 really appreciate the work you are doing. And

14 thank you for allowing me to present today.

15 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Mac?

17 CHAIR STONE: Bill Wolf to the

18 podium.

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: Mac.

20 CHAIR STONE: She said direct

21 questions elsewhere.

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, this isn't
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1 related to streptomycin.

2 CHAIR STONE: And Bill Wolf to the

3 podium and Brian Keegan on deck.

4 MR. WOLF: Good morning. I am

5 Bill Wolf, President of Wolf DiMatteo and

6 Associates, a consulting and technical support

7 firm for organic production, farming,

8 certification, and policy and regulatory

9 issues.

10 It has been several years since I

11 have had the opportunity to address the NOSB

12 and so some of you may not know me. Some of

13 you may recall my earthworm slide shows. I

14 don't have one today. I have been involved in

15 organics for over 40 years.

16 Today, I am actually here

17 representing a client, Draco Natural Products

18 of San Jose, California, the petitioner to

19 remove glycerin from the National List. I

20 would like to share a statement from them.

21 They were unable to attend.

22 Draco Natural Products appreciates
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1 the opportunity to comment and really thanks

2 the Handling Committee for supporting our

3 petition to remove glycerin from Section

4 205.605(b) of the National List. Ideally,

5 this is the decision we seek.

6 Public comments submitted prior in

7 this meeting and in October of last year are

8 clearly divided between support for removal

9 and concern about the commercial availability

10 of organic glycerin to meet the quantity and

11 quality demands of organic food manufacturers.

12 Concern about the impact on

13 natural flavors and colors which are used

14 broadly in organic products has also been

15 raised. Our key points in response are,

16 number one, through increased demand between

17 2012 and 2013, Draco's production increased

18 120 percent and continues to grow. There are

19 other manufacturers of organic glycerin and

20 current supplies that now sit in warehouses

21 waiting to be sold. However, we realize that

22 confidence in the supply chain is necessary.
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1 If the NOSB is not totally in support of

2 removal, we are willing to support a decision

3 to list glycerin in Section 205.605, ensuring

4 that it be used in organic products, unless

5 commercially unavailable.

6 Point two, further, if the NOSB

7 believes that some synthetic glycerin needs to

8 be used, we would reluctantly accept the

9 retention of synthetic glycerin on 605(b)

10 because of the problems with classifications

11 of materials but only if restricted to use in

12 made with organic products and as carriers in

13 natural flavors and organic colors.

14 We don't support 605 solution

15 suggested by OTA because it would still allow

16 synthetic glycerin to be used in any organic

17 product.

18 Please do not postpone this

19 decision. It take many months, if not years,

20 for your decision to be fully enforced by NOP.

21 Your decision now gives manufacturers and

22 ingredient suppliers a transition time they
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1 may need, as well as sends a message about the

2 commitment to continuous improvement.

3 In addition, we urge the NOP to

4 complete its work on the classification

5 materials guidance document in order to avoid

6 further confusion and complexity in decisions

7 on petitions and approval of materials used in

8 organic production.

9 Draco has invested in producing

10 organic glycerin because it will increase the

11 amount of organic ingredients in final

12 products, as consumers increasingly demand,

13 and to support organic farmers who produce the

14 raw ingredients Draco uses. Replacing

15 synthetic glycerin with organic glycerin in

16 organic processed products is the right thing

17 to do, in accordance with the principles of

18 organic production.

19 That ends Draco's statement. Of

20 course, Wolf DiMatteo and Associates also

21 submitted comments on a range of other topics.

22 I am open to answering questions about Draco's
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1 and the glycerin issue and any other questions

2 on any matter. Thank you.

3 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Bill.

4 Jay, any questions?

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: Hello? Okay,

6 thank you. Thank you, Bill. I loved your

7 statement. This is exactly what I think the

8 organic community is about, bringing new

9 ideas, incentivizing organic materials,

10 natural-based materials, whatever.

11 So, you came here with some

12 compromises to a petition. Do you not feel

13 that the company, I guess Draco has the

14 capacity to meet the need, current glycerin

15 needs as petitioned in the organic form that

16 it is now producing. And if -- the way I read

17 the petition, the petitioner felt pretty

18 strongly that -- and we have seen this with

19 other alternatives where, until the demand is

20 really there, it is hard to argue that the

21 supply is there, once the demand is

22 incentivized through this petition.
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1 The question is, will the demand

2 be able to -- will the supply be able to meet

3 the demand? And if so, why would you want to

4 compromise on the petition?

5 MR. WOLF: Well, there are several

6 producers of organic glycerin. Draco is only

7 one of those producers. Draco produces using

8 fermentation methods. There are two basic

9 certified organic procedures for producing

10 glycerin. Fermentation is one of them.

11 Saponification is the second.

12 And if in fact the surveys and the

13 data about the volume of glycerin being used

14 in organic products today is accurate, if

15 today the switch was turned, then there would

16 be a short. However, there is quite a long

17 period of time from when this Board votes to

18 when the actual rule is completed and changes.

19 And so, I would leave it to the Board to judge

20 the chain of events that is going to occur.

21 But we were also supportive of, and helped to

22 prepare the petition for organic lecithin
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1 changes on the National List. And there are

2 some similarities in terms of the process and

3 the amount of time it takes to build supply.

4 And there has not been a shortage or organic

5 lecithin in the marketplace that caused any

6 hardships.

7 The difference in this situation

8 is that there is a technical difference

9 between the lecithin situation and the

10 glycerin situation. And that is that glycerin

11 is a very common ingredient in natural

12 flavors. Natural flavors is on the National

13 List and is used very commonly in processed

14 organic foods. And not all natural flavor

15 producers are making organic or products

16 specifically for the organic market.

17 So, we have a little bit of a

18 complication there in the annotations that

19 have been added to natural flavors on 605.

20 And Draco is sensitive to that and wants the

21 organic industry not to be upset or disrupted.

22 I think the problem could be
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1 solved by simply using organic glycerin but I

2 also know that that adds a layer of challenges

3 throughout the supply chain. So, what Draco

4 has taken the position of is that they don't

5 want to disrupt many, many companies and

6 processes. As I said, there are several

7 producers of organic glycerin, all available

8 to ramp up their production during the period

9 from when this Board votes to when it is fully

10 implemented on the National List.

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

12 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Bill.

13 Harold?

14 MEMBER AUSTIN: Bill, during the

15 public comments that we received back, there

16 was also one other, along with the concerns

17 that you have just stated and why you have

18 come with a potential compromise, was also a

19 couple of comments regarding the ability of

20 some of those that are using glycerin to be

21 able to continue with their food safety

22 certifications. They have raised some issues
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1 that possibly they might not be able to do

2 that with the organic sources. Could you talk

3 to us a little bit about that?

4 MR. WOLF: It is interesting to

5 raise that question. I am not convinced that

6 that is a question within the framework of the

7 Organic Foods Production Act, frankly. I

8 think it is an important issue, generally, for

9 the organic community to be compliant to all

10 food safety regulations.

11 In the case of Draco, they are

12 certified by SGS, an internationally known

13 inspection agency to both their HASA plans and

14 GMP plans. They also hold Kosher

15 certifications, as well as USDA organic and EU

16 organic certifications.

17 I can't speak to other producers

18 but there are -- the complexities of food

19 safety inspections have become much more

20 challenging because many -- some of the larger

21 food handling proceeding companies require

22 that their own inspectors do additional
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1 inspections. And not every company allows

2 that.

3 So, I am not privy to the ins and

4 outs of this issue but I gather it did come up

5 in some surveys about glycerin. But I am not

6 convinced that that really has anything to do

7 with the issue.

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you. And I

9 think it just -- my point being is when we

10 look at the ability of the organic community

11 and the handlers to be able to make that

12 transition, if we were to move forward with

13 this, that would be one of the things that

14 would be impacting them as well.

15 So, looking at our organic

16 stakeholders and the impacts that any decision

17 that we would have here, how that would affect

18 those stakeholders.

19 MR. WOLF: Well, this comes back

20 to a comment that Wolf DiMatteo and Associates

21 has been making every year or so for the last

22 ten years and that is that commercial
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1 availability should apply to the entire list.

2 If it did, then the issue of commercial

3 availability would address a food safety

4 glitch, meaning that if you couldn't get your

5 product to meet your specifications and they

6 were legitimate specifications, you could

7 submit to the certifier information to show

8 that it wasn't compliant to a food safety

9 issue. And that does occur today in the

10 marketplace. However, currently, commercial

11 availability is not being applied to any other

12 section of the list except 606. In terms of

13 continuous improvement, that would be a major

14 step forward, if in fact the entire list did

15 have commercial availability applied to it.

16 And that would solve the food safety question.

17 CHAIR STONE: Than you Bill.

18 MEMBER FELDMAN: Can I just ask,

19 is there any -- do you see any legal

20 impediment to doing that or is it just -- why

21 hasn't that done been done, that follow

22 through on your recommendation?
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1 MR. WOLF: We have made that

2 statement in the past but there is no real

3 movement to change that. I don't know how we

4 would do it. There is not a formal petition

5 process for doing that. That is a framework

6 rule change.

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay, thank you.

8 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Bill.

9 Thank you, very much. Anything else? Brian

10 Keegan to the podium, Lindsey Fernandez11 Salvador on deck.

12 Board members, I will let you know

13 we are sufficiently doubled our time. We are

14 going way over. I am considering that we go

15 straight through. We may not take a break.

16 Each of us can get up as we need to, pick the

17 speakers, just to try to make up some time.

18 I am hesitant to not allow

19 questions but we are running way over. So,

20 thank you.

21 Brian?

22 MR. KEEGAN: Good morning. I am
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1 Brian Keegan. I am a consumer, a grandfather,

2 member of the Cornucopia Institute. And I am

3 here today as a citizen lobbyist.

4 I volunteered to help present

5 testimony because I am concerned about the

6 recent efforts of the NOP to take away the

7 independence and the rightful authority of the

8 National Organic Standards Board. There are

9 many examples of this takeover but I only have

10 four minutes. So, today I will talk about the

11 new NOP Sunset process. This issue is not on

12 the agenda but it should be.

13 The NOP reversed the Sunset

14 procedure without public involvement and

15 without the consent of the NOSB. In the words

16 of Congressman Patrick Leahy and Peter DeFazio

17 in a letter to Agriculture Secretary Tom

18 Vilsack, we are urging you to reverse this

19 policy change. The OFPA is one of our

20 proudest legislative accomplishments and we

21 are extremely concerned by this significant

22 and unwarranted policy change.
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1 Many organizations have written

2 eloquent comments in support of the Board's

3 right to determine the Sunset policy. For

4 example, Beyond Pesticides, Center for Food

5 Safety, Consumers Union, Cornucopia Institute

6 for food and water watch, Midwest Pesticide

7 Action Center, National Organic Coalition, No

8 Spray Zone, NOFA Interstate Council, Wild Farm

9 Alliance.

10 Three former of the NOSB, Jim

11 Riddle, Jeff Moyer, and Barry Flamm wrote to

12 Secretary Vilsack to express their objections

13 to reversal of the Sunset policy. They also

14 mentioned additional concerns.

15 We are distressed by the apparent

16 determination of the NOP management that they

17 have the authority to micromanage the NOSB

18 work plans and agendas. The disbanding of the

19 NOSB's policy development subcommittee was

20 again done in an arbitrary, unilateral, and

21 disrespective manner by the management of the

22 NOP with no public discussion or consultation.
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1 Thank you to NOSB members for your

2 work in keeping organics strong. I wish you

3 success in your efforts to develop work plans

4 that address vital issues, to have a policy

5 subcommittee that responds to public input and

6 to have a robust Sunset process.

7 Now, for my two cents in this, if

8 I may. A long, long time ago in a faraway

9 land, I worked and trusted in people that

10 governed -- that were involved in governing

11 America. Then, I was introduced to Agent

12 Orange. Life has never been the same.

13 Since then, I have watched as the

14 global oligarchs have become more visible and

15 active. And over time, I felt we have lost

16 our honor. And without our honor, all is

17 lost.

18 I have seen the likes of Monsanto

19 and its affiliates spread their tentacles of

20 devastation around the planet with assistance

21 by some in the global governments and private

22 sectors. I am witnessing fascism and
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1 plutocracy.

2 I hope that while you folks are

3 sitting in these chairs for just a brief

4 moment in history, that you will try to help

5 bring back our honor. Do the right thing.

6 I wish you all a productive

7 session while you are in San Antonio, good

8 health to you and good health to your

9 grandbabies.

10 That's all I have.

11 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much,

12 Brian. Thank you for taking the time to be

13 here.

14 (Applause.)

15 CHAIR STONE: Lindsay Fernandez16 Salvador to the podium and Gwendolyn Wyard on

17 deck.

18 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Good

19 morning, everybody. Mac, I am here to help

20 catch you up on your schedule here. Okay?

21 Because I am going to be real quick.

22 My name is Lindsay Fernandez-
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1 Salvador. I work at OMRI. I am the technical

2 director over there. I would like to start

3 this morning by thanking the NOP and the NOSB

4 for their service. And I think you guys are

5 going a great job. I am going to talk about

6 the vinasse and laminarin.

7 First for vinasse, OMRI supports

8 the majority opinion. It is OMRI's opinion

9 that vinasse is non-synthetic the way it is

10 manufactured. We have approximately eight

11 products on our list that contain vinasse. We

12 also have other vinasse ingredients that we

13 have prohibited because they contain synthetic

14 additives that are not on the National List

15 for that purpose.

16 We consider it non-synthetic

17 because it is a substance created by quote

18 unquote naturally-occurring biological

19 processes. However, different sources of

20 vinasse may contain synthetic additives that

21 are otherwise not permitted on the National

22 List and are not removed by the manufacturing
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1 process.

2 We definitely agree with the

3 suggested annotation to screen for high

4 nitrogen fortification. This is one of the

5 ingredients that OMRI regularly considers for

6 analysis on nitrogen because it can be at risk

7 for nitrogen fortification, just due to the

8 wide variety of sources all over the globe.

9 For laminarin, OMRI's opinion is

10 that raw laminarin, as described in the

11 petition is non-synthetic. However, the

12 attitude is need further review. For example,

13 the leftover sodium sulfate produced during

14 the pH adjustment is synthetic and should be

15 evaluated as an inert, since laminarin is

16 being petitioned as a pesticide.

17 We do note that the majority

18 opinion says that sodium sulfate is present at

19 insignificant levels. I do want to note that

20 this will be the first time that the NOSB will

21 suggest such a thing, since the new guidance

22 document on classification of materials. And
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1 while we don't have an opinion on whether that

2 is significant or insignificant, we can say

3 that currently OMRI would consider the sodium

4 sulfate as part of the review and not ignore

5 it or not review it.

6 So, please do realize that a

7 precedent for quote unquote insignificant

8 residues is being set with a majority opinion

9 as written and to consider those part of your

10 deliberation. Thank you.

11 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much,

12 Lindsay.

13 Jay.

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you,

15 Lindsay. A couple questions. I am trying to

16 understand. You said in your comments, I

17 believe, that this would be the first time

18 plant extract would not be identified as

19 synthetic or that there other similar plant

20 extracts that are subject to the same

21 processing that are listed as synthetic. I am

22 talking about laminarin now.
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1 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: No, we

2 are talking about aquatic plant extracts that

3 are typically extracted with alkaline

4 materials that are used as plant soil

5 amendments. And OMRI doesn't actually

6 consider the extract itself to be synthetic.

7 We consider the fact that the aquatic plant

8 extract plus the extractant, the phosphoric

9 acid or I'm sorry the alkaline materials are

10 both present in the final product, as applied

11 to the soil. And so that is why those aquatic

12 plant extracts need to be on the National List

13 or are on the National List because the

14 synthetic, the alkaline material is still

15 present.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Right. So, you

17 don't see an analogy here with the synthetic

18 material being present at a functional

19 technical effect and, therefore, should be --

20 I'm not saying it shouldn't be listed. I'm

21 saying it should be evaluated as a synthetic.

22 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: I see
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1 your analogy but I think for clarity purposes,

2 it is better to consider the extract and the

3 separate ingredients as separate pieces of a

4 puzzle.

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: And one last

6 comment. Sorry. As you know -- I didn't mean

7 to cut you off. I apologize.

8 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Oh,

9 that's fine, Jay. You're on the Board.

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: I am just trying

11 to move this along. I know Mac gets upset

12 with me.

13 This idea of being treated as an

14 inert, my antenna go up really high because we

15 are not evaluating inerts and EPA no longer

16 has list 1, 2, 3, 4, 4(a), 4(b), even though

17 they rely on the NOSB or the NOP to reference

18 those lists that no longer exist and has been

19 very patient with this program in waiting for

20 the analysis to be done. This is another

21 topic for another day.

22 But to reference inerts, at this
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1 point, as a way of allowing an admittedly

2 synthetic ingredient to add a functional and

3 technical effect in the final material, don't

4 you think creates a little bit of a distance

5 here with our inability to evaluate inerts

6 and, in addition, having held up numerous

7 other alerts, waiting for an inerts policy

8 like EDDS as a substitute for EDTA.

9 So, why would it be proper, at

10 this point, for the Board to dismiss or allow

11 this materials inert and, therefore,

12 circumvent review of a synthetic when, in

13 fact, we have held up other inerts that are

14 EDDS in the same exact category. It is a list

15 for inert and we have held it up, pending an

16 inerts policy.

17 So, is there a little bit of a

18 dissonance or discordant position there do you

19 think or am I off base on that?

20 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Actually,

21 I think the logical progression is to continue

22 reviewing materials with the rule that we have
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1 right now and then to go back into a final

2 sweep when we have made final rule on inerts,

3 in my opinion.

4 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you,

6 Lindsay.

7 I would just like you to briefly

8 comment on your written comment on sodium

9 carbonate peroxyhydrate and what is wrong with

10 the annotation.

11 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Yes, so

12 as part of my job, I get a lot of questions

13 about how to implement annotations for

14 substances on the National List. And

15 unfortunately, I don't have the annotation in

16 front of me but, basically, it says that

17 federal -- that the sodium carbonate

18 peroxyhydrate has to be used according to

19 federal laws. And it has two issues. One,

20 being that when you are in a foreign country,

21 what are those federal laws? What should you

22 be following? Should you be following the EPA
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1 laws or should you be following the federal

2 laws that jurisdict over your country?

3 And then the second part is that

4 when you look at sodium carbonate

5 peroxyhydrate registration for the EPA, in

6 some cases it has been used as algae control

7 in irrigation systems and there is not going

8 to be any food uses on the label because you

9 are not going to be using that irrigation

10 water, necessarily with that ingredient as a

11 pesticide.

12 So, there is confusion around how

13 it is supposed to be implemented and we just

14 wanted to have the analysts discuss that at

15 some level and realizing that there is no

16 resolution to it. Just give us a bit of

17 guidance.

18 CHAIR STONE: Really?

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: She's the best --

20 CHAIR STONE: Go ahead.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: -- and we need

22 her.
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1 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Thanks,

2 Jay.

3 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, you know how

4 I feel about you, Lindsay.

5 If you could just inform the

6 Board, just spend a little bit of time just

7 explaining to us the difference between

8 generic and formulated substances and the

9 division of responsibilities between NOP,

10 NOSB, and MROs into review organizations. And

11 the kinds of problems we should be aware of

12 and look out for or the Board should be aware

13 of as we delve into this issue.

14 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Well, I

15 can answer the first part of the question

16 about what is the difference between generics

17 and formulateds. I can't answer your second

18 question. It is out of my purview.

19 But the difference between

20 generics and brand name products is the fact

21 that there is raw ingredients that go into a

22 formulated product so that the manufacturer
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1 can market that product versus a generic

2 material that is manufactured in a way that is

3 then further formulated.

4 It is kind of complex but Blood

5 Meal is both a brand name product and a

6 generic material and it is when the

7 manufacturer puts a brand on it and

8 intentionally manufacturers it in a way that

9 they intend for it to have some sort of

10 marketable value.

11 And so generic materials will be

12 formulated sometimes because in this world,

13 they are manufactured in certain ways. They

14 are not necessarily manufactured according to

15 what we consider to be a singular generic

16 material. And so, I think you are going to

17 have to consider it on a case-by-case basis.

18 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Lindsay,

19 very much.

20 MS. FERNANDEZ-SALVADOR: Thank

21 you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Gwendolyn to the
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1 podium and Allyson Kelly on deck.

2 MS. WYARD: All right, good

3 morning. My name is Gwendolyn Wyard and I am

4 the Regulatory Director of Organic Standards

5 and Food Safety for the Organic Trade

6 Association. I appreciate being here, having

7 this opportunity. I realized as I was coming

8 here that this is my 20th consecutive NOSB

9 meeting. And I am not sure what to say about

10 that other than thank you for your service and

11 thank you for the job security. Hopefully, I

12 can offer some perspective that I have gained

13 over sitting through these meeting and

14 particularly with materials.

15 I want to address an agenda topic

16 today, glycerin. I am going to dive right in.

17 I'm not sure how well you can see the screen.

18 I need glasses.

19 So, I am going to try to tease out

20 some of the issues with glycerin. First, I

21 want to say we are really excited about the

22 petition to remove glycerin. We are always in
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1 support of a petition to remove the material.

2 We would also like to see glycerin come off

3 the national list, if there is an adequate

4 supply of organic forms available.

5 Looking at this chart, the

6 concerns that we do have, however, is the on7 demand data that we have collected from our

8 membership. In terms of the amount in the

9 petition that the manufacturers are able to

10 produce, our members are telling us that the

11 demand is surpassing that by two to three

12 times. So, that is a big issue is making sure

13 we do in fact have the supply. And the other

14 issue is the classification of materials. We

15 have a draft out there that final is pending.

16 One of the reason that this is so

17 important is that in the made with category,

18 any non-agricultural needs to be on the

19 National List and the 30 percent you are

20 allowed to use non-organic agricultural

21 ingredients but in the made with, the non22 agriculturals have to be on the National List.
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1 So, when the petition first came,

2 I was contacted by several members saying

3 well, if glycerin comes off the national list

4 altogether, I wouldn't be allowed to use

5 anything but the agricultural or the organic

6 form in the made with category. The

7 regulations do not require organic in the made

8 with category. There is also no requirement

9 to use organic in natural flavors.

10 If it were to come off the

11 National List altogether, certifiers would

12 need to be able to clearly make a

13 classification decision to say to whoever is

14 requesting its use, you can use the

15 agricultural form only. But you can see here

16 as I interviewed various certifiers, the form

17 in the non-agricultural, it is either with the

18 hydrolysis fats and oils, you can have the

19 saponification, which would use sodium

20 hydroxide or it can be used through steam

21 splitting, a combination of pressure and

22 temperature. Some certifiers do that as
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1 agricultural.

2 The form that is being petitioned,

3 which is the microbial fermentation of corn

4 starch, that is analogous to citric acid.

5 That is currently classified as non6 agricultural.

7 So, we are not saying to keep

8 glycerin on the National List to solve the

9 classification problem but you might need to.

10 And one of our suggestions is that you do keep

11 it on the National List to classify.

12 And if you look at this next, in

13 terms of what we are suggesting here, that if

14 you were to keep it on the National List, you

15 could clarify, because of the ambiguous nature

16 of it, that non-organic agricultural forms

17 could be used and made with the products, just

18 to be clear, the pending guidance of those is

19 something that we need to clarify this issue.

20 What I am trying to -- the point

21 here is that the solution that OTA has brought

22 up in our comments and I am happy to address
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1 the suggestion that Bill Wolf just put on the

2 table, in terms of whether we would agree with

3 that compromise, if you want to ask questions

4 about that, but we are suggesting that you

5 retain glycerin on 605(b) and annotate it that

6 it may be used only when it is not available.

7 And I am happy to answer any

8 questions you have about this progression

9 going from its current status to the solution

10 that we are offering up. Thank you.

11 CHAIR STONE: Harold.

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Good morning,

13 Gwen.

14 MS. WYARD: Good morning.

15 MEMBER AUSTIN: Could you go ahead

16 and finish your part about your compromise,

17 Bill Wolf's compromise that he just brought?

18 MS. WYARD: Sure. And I may need

19 to bring Bill up here, if I didn't completely

20 understand because I am just hearing it for

21 the first time but I will try to describe the

22 difference between what we are saying and what
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1 Bill is saying. We are suggesting that

2 glycerin be placed on the Agricultural List,

3 which is 205.606, allowed non-organic

4 agriculturals. That it would be placed there

5 so that any agricultural form would need to be

6 sourced as organic. It could only be used if

7 it was commercially unavailable.

8 We are also requesting that

9 glycerin be retained on the allowed non10 agricultural synthetic list, which is 605(b).

11 The annotation there again would be that you

12 would be required to use organic, unless it is

13 unavailable. We are also suggesting that it

14 be clarified that non-organic agricultural

15 forms could be used -- could be allowed in the

16 made with category.

17 What Bill is suggesting is that it

18 be placed on 606, the allowed non-organic

19 agricultural list, so that it would be --

20 organic would be required, unless commercially

21 unavailable. On 605(b), he is saying to

22 restrict it only, so it would only be allowed
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1 in natural flavors and would only be allowed

2 in made with products.

3 We would have to work through that

4 a little bit more. Any way you slice this, I

5 think that we do need to look at an

6 intermediate step. Because if you look at the

7 current status, right now we have got allowed

8 synthetic in organic products, made with

9 products, and natural flavors. If you take it

10 off the National List, you have got organic

11 being the only form that would be allowed when

12 we have commercial availability issues and it

13 would force organic forms potentially in

14 products that are not required, have no

15 requirement for organic.

16 The solution up here essentially

17 is that you are saying you can use non-organic

18 only when organic is commercially unavailable.

19 This would be a huge step in the right

20 direction. It also would provide a huge

21 incentive for natural flavors because right

22 now, if you take glycerin off the National
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1 List, you couldn't use glycerin in natural

2 flavors. And I am positive that the natural

3 flavor manufacturers have not been brought

4 into this conversation, that there hasn't been

5 a close look at the supply as it relates to

6 natural flavors because this was a nuance that

7 really came up at the last minute.

8 What we are suggesting would

9 require natural flavor manufacturers to source

10 organic. So, it gets us going in the right

11 direction. This would be the first time that

12 for natural flavors they would be required to

13 use organic, unless it is commercially

14 unavailable. That is a huge step right there.

15 And it gets us going down the road because you

16 are going to be reviewing natural flavors for

17 the 2017 Sunset. So, it is a good step in the

18 right direction.

19 CHAIR STONE: John?

20 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Thank you.

21 Thank you for that.

22 I was going to ask about the
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1 natural flavor deal but I think you covered

2 what I needed to cover. My question was have

3 you looked at glycerin's use in personal care

4 products and how the supply and demand of that

5 is quite a bit different for food use. I know

6 you know that. So, could you talk about that?

7 Because that has not been part of the

8 discourse so far.

9 MS. WYARD: Yes, I think the large

10 majority of the glycerin is being used in

11 personal care products. And I think that also

12 will speak to Harold's question earlier about

13 the food safety aspects is that most of the

14 glycerin is being manufactured for personal

15 products and they have completely different

16 requirements when it comes to food safety than

17 for food products.

18 Glycerin is being used in food

19 products and I can't say compare one to the

20 other but I do know that in certified, NOP21 certified products, there is a significant

22 amount of glycerin that is being used. But it
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1 is the food products, the real difference in

2 terms of looking at what is significant about

3 personal care versus food is that a lot of the

4 glycerin manufacturers, including the

5 manufacturers that are making the organic

6 glycerin would need to take on additional food

7 safety inspections and certifications to meet

8 the requirements that are being requested from

9 the food companies.

10 CHAIR STONE: Carmela?

11 MEMBER BECK: Yes, you talked

12 about -- can you hear me?

13 You talked about the pending

14 classification guidance. And so can you tell

15 us how the finalized guidance would support

16 the solutions that you are proposing?

17 MS. WYARD: Sure. Thanks,

18 Carmela.

19 It goes back to the question, the

20 issue that I brought up with made with

21 products, that the classification of a

22 material determines what products something
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1 can and cannot be allowed in.

2 So, if you had to make a decision,

3 if a certifier had to figure out whether or

4 not to allow the agricultural form or the non5 agricultural form, they would need that final

6 guidance to be able to clearly make that

7 determination and also so that all certifiers

8 are consistently making those decisions.

9 So, classification becomes a big

10 part of this matter and it is coming soon but

11 it is not out right now. Again, it is not a

12 show stopper but it is a very important part

13 of this.

14 You know we suggest that this is a

15 really good example of something that needs

16 further deliberation. The suggested changes

17 that are in our comments, this is not

18 something that should be made at this meeting,

19 this would be a substantial change in going

20 back to the clarification about substantial

21 changes made to a proposal. This is something

22 that I really encourage everybody to take a
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1 closer look at, take some time and come up

2 with a recommendation that will take into

3 consideration all of these points that have

4 been brought up today.

5 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you,

6 Gwendolyn. Thanks very much.

7 Allyson Kelly to the podium and

8 Romalda Allsup on deck.

9 MS. KELLY: Good morning. My name

10 is Allyson Kelly. I am the Senior Program

11 Manager for Organic Compliance with the Hain

12 Celestial Group. We wish to offer comments on

13 the notification of Sunset process and the

14 Sound and Sensible Initiative.

15 On November 16, 2013, AMS posted a

16 Federal Register notice clarifying the process

17 for reviewing materials that are up for Sunset

18 review. The process allows increased

19 opportunities for public comment over two NOSB

20 meetings.

21 To remove the materials from the

22 National List during Sunset review, a decisive
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1 two-thirds vote of the Board is required.

2 This is consistent with OFPA and the two3 thirds vote that is required to add a material

4 to the list.

5 The previous Sunset clauses

6 allowed just two-fifths of the NOSB members to

7 essentially vote a material off the list after

8 it was already scrutinized to be safe and

9 necessary for organic production or handling

10 by two-thirds of the Board. This old process

11 amounts of a tyranny of the minority and is

12 inconsistent with our democratic system of

13 government.

14 We have heard that this revised

15 process will make it extremely difficult to

16 make changes to the National List but I do not

17 believe this is accurate. Two-thirds of the

18 Board has voted to change the listing of

19 pectin and to require organic forms of

20 lecithin, yeast, and silicon dioxide, when

21 commercially available.

22 We are confident that substances
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1 that are no longer appropriate to organic

2 systems will be removable through this voting

3 requirement. We want to express our support

4 for this clarified sunset review process.

5 We would also like to again

6 express our support for the Sound and Sensible

7 Certification Initiative. As Miles has

8 stated, certifying agents must ensure organic

9 integrity, while setting sensible limits on

10 paperwork. We could not agree more.

11 I am required to maintain and

12 renew annually the organic certifications for

13 more than 20 manufacturing facilities and

14 three corporate handler certificates. When

15 the manufacturing facilities have their annual

16 inspections, we are required to print out

17 massive amounts of paperwork. Inspectors

18 scrutinize the facility, and every ingredient

19 and every formula, and every label. Then when

20 we have our corporate audits, some inspectors

21 asked for the same information on ingredients

22 and formulas that are used in manufacturing
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1 facilities that were already inspected. This

2 is redundant and totally unnecessary.

3 We also have the problem that some

4 ACAs do not honor the certification decisions

5 of other ACAs. If products of a manufacturing

6 facility have been certified by an NOP7 approved ACA but the label on the product

8 lists a different ACA, the label ACA should

9 respect that the product has already been

10 certified. They should not require the

11 product formulas and the documentation for the

12 ingredients. This duplication is a huge waste

13 of time because the products have already been

14 certified. These duplications do not ensure

15 organic integrity but they do ensure

16 frustration and waste.

17 Since not all companies are

18 certified by the same accredited certifying

19 agency, these ACAs must trust that other ACAs

20 are doing their due diligence, especially with

21 regards to documentation review and

22 certification. It is important that we all
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1 stay close to the practices that form the

2 foundation of organic.

3 We wish to thank the NOSB for

4 their service. We also want to thank Miles

5 McEvoy and the dedicated staff at NOP for all

6 of their hard work and efforts to support

7 organic foods in the United States. Thank

8 you.

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Allyson.

10 Questions? Jay.

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: And I would like

12 to thank Hain for its leadership in growing

13 organic label and the organic market.

14 I would really urge the company,

15 however, to re-read democratic principles that

16 govern democracy in the United States, which

17 protects against the tyranny of the majority.

18 And that is why we have the two-thirds

19 decisive vote. That is why Robert's Rules of

20 Order has a two-thirds vote to cut off debate.

21 That is why we protect the minority in this

22 country.
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1 So, my question is, have you

2 looked at --

3 CHAIR STONE: Jay, is there is a

4 question in there?

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. Have you

6 looked at the implication that this --

7 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Point of

8 order. Mr. Chair, point of order.

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'm asking a

10 question. Have you looked at --

11 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Point of

12 order, Mr. Chair. I would like to request,

13 Mr. Chair, that you direct Mr. Feldman to try

14 not to lecture the audience or the listening

15 --

16 (Applause.)

17 CHAIR STONE: Jay, if you could --

18 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. Is

19 Hain worried about alienating organic

20 consumers who are concerned that their views

21 are being discounted in the Sunset process?

22 MS. KELLY: Well, Jay, this is an
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1 issue that is really close to my heart.

2 I work for Hain because I believe

3 in organic. As somebody that is recently

4 married and considering soon becoming a

5 mother, I am extremely concerned with the

6 future of organic. And I think Hain is doing

7 everything it can to support that. The

8 organic program is never going to grow, unless

9 we allow a little bit of change.

10 I am confident that the change to

11 the Sunset review process, as I said, would

12 still allow materials to come off of the list

13 as they see fit. I don't think that things

14 are going to remain on the list in perpetuity,

15 as I have heard said over the past couple of

16 meetings.

17 I know that there is a vision of

18 Hain as this big corporate, and I am the

19 organic program. I do the -- the entire

20 program is mine by myself. I don't consider

21 myself big nor corporate. I am really trying

22 to do the right thing by organic because I do
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1 believe in it. It is something that I am

2 master of control of over at Hain and it is

3 very important to me.

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

5 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Allyson.

6 MS. KELLY: Thank you.

7 CHAIR STONE: Romalda Allsup and

8 Cindy Elder on deck.

9 Welcome.

10 MS. ALLSUP: Hi. My name is

11 Romalda Allsup. I am a retailer from Austin,

12 Texas. As a member of the Cornucopia

13 Institute, I am here to lobby and to present

14 testimony because I want to ensure the future

15 integrity of organic food.

16 I think future generations are

17 counting on us to improve in strength and

18 organic standards. Organic farmers worked in

19 pursuit of better methods and add to the

20 science of food production. They deserve our

21 support.

22 For the consumer, a credible
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1 organic label can only exist when there are

2 strong, verifiable standards in place. Food

3 production needs to be honest and transparent.

4 There is a question coming up

5 about the aquaculture materials that the

6 National Organic Program is requesting review

7 of the aquaculture materials before they have

8 published the aquaculture standards. It is

9 placing pressure on the National Organic

10 Standards Board to approve aquaculture

11 materials prior to creating an overall

12 standard. And that looks like it is putting

13 the cart before the horse.

14 Organic agriculture response to

15 site-specific conditions and promotes

16 ecological balance. The raising of aquatic

17 plants is fundamentally different from the

18 raising of terrestrial crops. That is

19 essential to take these differences into

20 account, considering both the regulations and

21 any possible additions of synthetic materials

22 to the National List.
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1 The fact that organic regulations

2 have not yet been developed and approved by

3 both the NOSB and the NOP indicates these

4 differences have not been fully resolved.

5 So, specifically for aquatic

6 plants, the following petition materials must

7 be rejected: chlorine, lignin sulfonate,

8 carbon dioxide, vitamins, and micronutrients.

9 The main reason these materials must be

10 rejected is because there are no organic

11 aquaculture standards by which to judge the

12 use of these materials. None of these

13 materials have technical reports for aquatic

14 use.

15 Carbon dioxide is presently used

16 as a processing agent in food manufacturing

17 but in a completely different way than it

18 would be used in water. Chlorine has been

19 around to sterilize in some situations where

20 it can be washed off. But if it is put into

21 the water, it can't be taken out.

22 Lignin sulfonate has been fully
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1 rejected by the Livestock Subcommittee. There

2 is lots to be said about that stuff.

3 Micronutrients and vitamins cannot

4 be verified by the label produced because they

5 use proprietary processes. So, we don't know

6 what is in them. There is clearly not enough

7 evidence or information on any of these

8 materials to understand their potential

9 impacts. There is also no designation if they

10 will be used in open-water culture systems or

11 closed ones. The world's oceans and waterways

12 are in crisis. Ocean acidification is

13 happening with rising CO2 levels, placing the

14 entire food web at risk.

15 We have times where supporting

16 leading to massive fish die-offs and food

17 poisoning in humans. Trash and nutrient

18 pollution is rampant. Sixty percent of

19 coastal rivers and bays in the U.S. have

20 moderate to severe nutrient pollution. It is

21 truly frightening to consider that organics

22 might embrace an aquaculture model that
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1 contributes to the further peril of our

2 oceans, waterways, and wild aquatic organism.

3 Therefore, please reject all

4 aquaculture provisions or, at the least,

5 limiting them to include a five-year Sunset

6 date.

7 Thank you for allowing me to

8 present testimony. If you have questions

9 about this, I encourage you to speak to one of

10 the Cornucopia staff members present at this

11 meeting or, at your option, call them if they

12 are experts if you have questions that need to

13 be answered.

14 Thank you.

15 CHAIR STONE: Thank you for your

16 time.

17 Cindy Elder to the podium and Kim

18 Miller on deck.

19 MS. ELDER: Good morning. I am

20 Cindy Elder, Inspector Services Coordinator

21 and Reviewer at Organic Crop Improvement

22 Association. I am presenting this on behalf
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1 of our Board of Directors and membership.

2 We are a producer, processor, and

3 handler members of the Organic Crop

4 Improvement Association International. OCIA

5 functions in the United States as a network of

6 chapter and direct members and as a USDA

7 National Organic Program Accredited

8 Certification Agency that provides

9 certification services to more than 9,000

10 people in North, Central, and South America

11 and Asia. Our comments on the National

12 Organic Standards Board in Spring 2014 meeting

13 follow.

14 OCIA thanks the NOSB for its

15 efforts to maintain organic integrity.

16 However, OCIA is concerned about the lack of

17 published standards for hydroponics,

18 aquaculture, retailers, and seed growers. As

19 a certifier, we need clear standards to

20 certify operations.

21 Consumers expect organic products

22 to be free of genetically engineered
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1 organisms. Organic producers are seed savers.

2 Organics integrity would diminish if seed is

3 contaminated with transgenic traits and then

4 saved.

5 Retailers are a gap in the audit

6 trail. We agree with the Cornucopia

7 Institute's comments to the NOSB that quote,

8 consumers expect the organic label to name the

9 final holder of the product, as well as the

10 name of the handler's certification agency.

11 Stakeholders who initially developed the

12 Organic Foods Production Act assumed that an

13 audit trail would be available to track

14 products and ingredients back to the original

15 producers. The broad question to be addressed

16 is what procedures must be in place to ensure

17 that consumer expectations are met in terms of

18 trust in the organic labeling and retail

19 process, end quote.

20 Additionally, OCIA agrees with all

21 of the Cornucopia's comments on research

22 priorities. We specifically urge the NOSB to
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1 continue research on the unwanted presence of

2 genetically engineered organisms and organics.

3 Consumers expect organic products to be

4 transgene free. OCIA members are concerned

5 about transgenic trespass because organic

6 producers are seed savers and organics

7 integrity starts with seed. The NOP has

8 guidance on pesticide residue testing but

9 certifiers need further guidance on testing

10 for presence of genetically engineered

11 organisms.

12 Organic farmers should be able to

13 save seed without risking the spread of

14 genetic contamination. There is a lack of

15 effort on the part of non-organic operators to

16 prevent contamination. Non-organic producers

17 should not solely be responsible for

18 uncontrollable pollen drift onto neighboring

19 organic fields. Seed developers of the

20 genetically engineered crops need to take

21 responsibility for genetic contamination.

22 We recognize that seed purity can
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1 extend beyond the authority of the NOSB but we

2 encouraged continued discussion on this topic,

3 especially with organic seed producers.

4 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

5 MS. ELDER: Thank you.

6 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

7 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Just one quick

8 question. You mentioned your desire to make

9 sure there is no -- your work to keep GMO out

10 of the food chain. Do you certify livestock

11 as well?

12 MS. ELDER: Yes, we do.

13 MEMBER RICHARDSON: When you

14 certify livestock, do you ask the livestock

15 producers to verify that the vaccines that

16 they are using are non-GMO?

17 MS. ELDER: I would need to refer

18 that question to our livestock staff and

19 provide you an answer at a later time.

20 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Great. I

21 would really appreciate an answer.

22 MS. ELDER: Okay.
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1 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you very

2 much.

3 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you,

4 Cindy. Tim Miller to the podium and Steve

5 Walker on deck.

6 MR. MILLER: My name is Tim

7 Miller. I am in my 25th year of following the

8 rules of being a five-acre certified organic

9 grower who uses only rainwater for production.

10 Recently the State of Texas has proposed a

11 five-lane highway within 200 feet of my farm.

12 No standards exist regulating vehicle

13 emissions in soil and rainwater. Will I be

14 polluted out of business?

15 I am member of the Cornucopia

16 Institute and I am here today as a citizen

17 lobbyist. I have volunteered to help present

18 testimony because I want to ensure the

19 integrity of organic food.

20 The NOP should not request review

21 of aquaculture materials when they have not

22 published the aquaculture standards. It is
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1 unsettling that the NOP is placing pressure on

2 the NOSB to approve aquaculture materials

3 prior to creating an overall standard. I want

4 to highlight a couple of powerful comments

5 sent to the NOSB on aquaculture from John

6 Botterich of Cannon Beach, Oregon.

7 My family and I have been

8 commercial salmon fishermen for decades. My

9 four sons have fished with me since they were

10 little and have employed healthy work and a

11 good living, especially since wild salmon

12 prices have recovered from the impact on the

13 market of cheap farmed fish.

14 Now, I understand the aquaculture

15 industry is asking for consumers from the USDA

16 to swallow that in an attempt to increase its

17 appeal to concerned consumers farmed fish can

18 be labeled organic. For the sake of the

19 American consumer, we hope that the USDA won't

20 cave into the aquaculture industry's special

21 interest. Organic should mean something

22 incorruptible about the quality of our food.
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1 Farmed fish feedlots damage marine ecosystems

2 and harm wild fish populations. Disease,

3 parasites, pollution, escapees, all threaten

4 the wild fish that live in the proximity, even

5 briefly, to industrial fish pens. The

6 aquaculture industry's efforts to address

7 these problems with vaccines, antibiotics,

8 synthetic feed, chlorine, will invite mockery

9 of the term organic if it labels farmed fish.

10 From Bernell Waltz of Bellingham

11 Washington: Organic standards require animals

12 to exhibit their natural behavior. Wild

13 salmon and other fish swim for lifetimes

14 traveling hundreds of miles and confining this

15 fish is a direct violation of the core organic

16 principles.

17 Marine fish farms replicate some

18 of the worst practices of a confined animal

19 feedlot operations known as CAFOs, which would

20 never receive organic certification, or at

21 least they shouldn't, impact so largely under

22 the waterline and out of sight so the fish
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1 farm industry has escaped scrutiny that would

2 have closed down comparably dirty land-based

3 operations. Marine net pens allow excess

4 feed, pathogens, parasites, and voluminous

5 amounts of pollution to flush into the

6 surrounding waters putting other aquatic

7 species at risk.

8 Farmed fish escape, competing with

9 wild fish, for wild species, for food and

10 habitat. More than 600,000 non-native

11 Atlantic salmon escaped from net pens into

12 Washington State waters in four years alone.

13 Millions of farmed fish escaped worldwide, he

14 concludes.

15 I ask you that you please reject

16 all aquaculture proposals or, at the very

17 least, amend them to include a five-year

18 Sunset date.

19 Thank you for allowing me to

20 present testimony. If you have questions

21 about this testimony, I encourage you to speak

22 with one of the Cornucopia staff members
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1 present at this meeting.

2 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Tim.

3 MR. MILLER: Thank you.

4 CHAIR STONE: Steve Walker to the

5 podium. Allen Lewis on deck.

6 MR. WALKER: Hi, I'm Steve Walker

7 and I am the processing and compliance manager

8 with MOSA. We certify about 1600 operations,

9 mostly in the upper Midwest. We submitted a

10 handful of written comments last fall and a

11 recently revised comment on retail

12 certification.

13 But here, I want to talk about

14 something a bit different, kind of a personal

15 story that speaks to themes of the past couple

16 of days and to balance.

17 At the San Diego Accredited

18 Certifiers Association Training a couple

19 months' ago, the NOP stated that organic

20 promotion is not the certifier's role. Now,

21 to be fair, I can't quite frame the context of

22 that statement but I do know it raised my
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1 dander. I thought, wait a minute, that is why

2 I do this work. And we just rewrote MOSA's

3 mission statement, which now says we promote

4 organic integrity through practical, reliable,

5 and friendly certification services.

6 Now, I understand the boundaries

7 we need to maintain as certifiers. We have to

8 enforce the regulations consistently and with

9 some detachment. But I also truly believe

10 that I am from the government and I am here to

11 help. I help by trying to make oversight

12 practical, as well as sound, and promoting the

13 human values that this industry was founded

14 upon.

15 In my 50 years, when I found good

16 news, I have learned to share it. I think

17 that for most of us, it is this organic good

18 life that brings us here. We want to promote

19 that.

20 My organic roots probably link

21 back to a sort of voluntary simplicity taught

22 by my mother. I also have somewhat of an
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1 aversion to boxes. After college, I took the

2 road less traveled. In my late 20s, I found

3 myself trying run a backyard homestead and

4 found a good life. Many here are probably

5 familiar with the influential 1950s book on

6 homesteading, Living the Good Life: How to

7 Live Simply and Sanely in a Troubled World by

8 Helen and Scott Nearing.

9 The Nearings left the city with

10 goals of economic independence, not tied to

11 the commodity and labor markets, well-being,

12 where contact with the earth and homegrown,

13 organic food would play a large part, and with

14 social and ethical ideals to avoid

15 exploitation of planète insolite, they wrote:

16 "The good life is more than a yearning for the

17 good, the beautiful, the true. It includes

18 decision, will, determination, and effort."

19 And so I find myself today

20 struggling to promote this organic good life

21 amidst sometimes divisive and damaging

22 rhetoric. La dolce vita is an Italian term
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1 for the good life, the sweet life filled with

2 abundance, drink, a culture of good food. We

3 all know it. We get to hang with enlightened

4 people in nice places like San Diego, and San

5 Antonio, and Viroqua, Wisconsin. We eat proud

6 salads and stinky cheese and know the sweet

7 smell of healthy soil. La dolce vita is good

8 news worth sharing.

9 But "La Dolce Vita" is also a 1960

10 Fellini films, which was really a study of

11 decay and world evolution of modern culture.

12 Sometimes when we have too much of a good

13 thing, we have challenges of balance and

14 respect.

15 Which brings me back to the

16 constant balancing act of maintaining the

17 organic standards. The Nearings warned keep

18 out of the system's clutches and you have a

19 chance of subsistence, even if the oligarchs

20 disapprove of what you think and say and do.

21 Accept the system with its implications and

22 ramifications and you become a helpless cog in
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1 an impersonal machine operated to make rich

2 men richer and powerful men more powerful.

3 This organic dolce vita is a desperately

4 needed alternative for our troubled world. It

5 requires balance. It is not easy work. We

6 can't turn a blind eye to the challenges but

7 we must promote what is good. We have a lot

8 of good life stories to tell and organic

9 operators urgently need organic consumers to

10 hear more of our good news.

11 (Applause.)

12 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Steve.

13 Well done.

14 Allen Lewis to the podium and Ib

15 Hagsten on deck.

16 MR. LEWIS: Hi, Allen Lewis. I am

17 here today as a private citizen. I do manage

18 75 retail handling certificates, including --

19 plus 110,000 square foot food processing

20 facility that is certified organic.

21 I have a higher level comment

22 today that comes in three parts and a
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1 conclusion. I am going to wing this and get

2 through it quickly.

3 First is herding hippies. This is

4 what I described to our investor community

5 when we are talking about people who have

6 worked in organic food and seeing this

7 community grow up over 30 years and then say,

8 oh, by the way, SEC compliance. Let me tell

9 you what that means.

10 But let's look at our community

11 here and how we describe it. Collaboration,

12 consensus, collective thought, citizen

13 constituency, compromise, constant change, and

14 chaos and confusion because ultimately, we

15 have an organization chart. We all report to

16 ourselves and to each other in this very flat

17 web of connections.

18 Each of us is pursuing our

19 economic and philosophical desires but we have

20 agreed that we will not damage the collective

21 well-being at the whole at the same time.

22 Observation number two, let's talk
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1 about government bureaucracy. Here are some

2 new words, hierarchies, rules, procedures,

3 rank, reporting, charts, authority, fealty,

4 status, compliance, titles, order,

5 regulations.

6 And to greatly oversimplify, it is

7 the job of a government and a bureaucracy in

8 particular to impose order, eliminate

9 unexpected outcomes, and quell or at least

10 manage dissent.

11 So, observation number three,

12 nobody is surprised that the USDA, as a

13 bureaucracy, is utterly terrified of the

14 organic community as a chaotic collaborative

15 environment. But let's be honest and open.

16 These are not opposites. These are different

17 cultures.

18 Finally, I understand, again, why

19 the USDA is afraid of Sunset and that is what

20 my comment is about. The Sunset process that

21 the drafters of the original Organic Foods

22 Production Act envisioned understood these two
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1 different cultures, understood the great mass

2 collaborative chaos of a collective culture

3 over here and they put the NOSB in place to

4 literally translate the language and the

5 desires, the consensus here into proposals and

6 verbiage that the bureaucracy could

7 understand, take up, and act on in the way

8 that it does.

9 But Deputy Administrator, the

10 organic community needs the Sunset process the

11 way it was written because the people who

12 drafted that understood that with a community

13 and a culture like this, we had to be brought

14 together every year and forced to reach a new

15 consensus; force the outliers to acknowledge

16 the common good; force new ideas to come in

17 through that collaborative process; and then

18 filter it through the NOSB and drop it off in

19 the NOP's lap.

20 I understand that the original

21 Sunset process is frightening and chaotic and

22 uncontrolled against every value that a
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1 regulatory culture has but I would ask the

2 USDA to understand that it is critical to our

3 community to go through this complicated ugly

4 process in order to do the job that we need to

5 do.

6 Thank you.

7 (Applause.)

8 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Allen.

9 Ib Hagsten to the podium and

10 Margot Mastroud on deck.

11 DR. HAGSTEN: Good morning. My

12 name is Dr. Ib Hagsten, an independent,

13 accredited organic inspector, serving a third

14 term as Chair of IOIA, the International

15 Organic Inspectors Association.

16 Ladies and gentlemen,

17 distinguished members of the NOSB and

18 dedicated staff of the NOP, thank you for the

19 opportunity to elaborate on the issues of

20 interest to the organic inspectors.

21 IOIA has appreciated the

22 opportunity to work with NOP leadership, NOSB
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1 representatives, and working group members of

2 the ACA of the NOSB's Sound and Sensible

3 Initiative discussion document.

4 There were three issues that we at

5 IOIA believed strongly needed to be improved

6 and streamlined for the benefit of the

7 consumer, the certifier, the NOP, and the

8 organic inspectors who are the only eyes,

9 ears, and noses on the ground in the Program.

10 Firstly, that the NOP auditors had

11 to learn to sing from the same page because in

12 the past, the certifiers seemed to be sitting

13 on pins and needles wondering how the next NOP

14 auditor would interpret their paperwork.

15 I was encouraged to hear from

16 Miles McEvoy last summer that the week-long

17 auditor training had been very successful. My

18 certifier survey indicates that the NOP

19 auditors were singing off the same page and

20 were organic in knowledge in the recent

21 season.

22 Secondly, we inspectors saw out on
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1 the farm the discrepancies between the organic

2 system plan and the observed practices. We

3 could fix it or not. Most likely, the

4 discrepancy is an improved farming practice,

5 yet it is not identical to the NOSP -- to the

6 OSP.

7 So, what do we do? Do we

8 compliment the farmer? Do we have the farmer

9 make the change? Or do we, the inspector,

10 make the change and then inform certifier?

11 Our industry is pleased to see the

12 NOP directive that helped streamline this

13 sticky issue. Each certifier I work with has

14 developed a policy that makes it clear to the

15 farmer, to the inspector, and to the

16 reviewers, what is expected.

17 This is another example of where

18 an organic integrity issue concerned most

19 advantaged to a simple yet helpful NOP

20 directive.

21 And lastly, at the end of the

22 inspection, we are required to complete an
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1 exit interview with the farmer that one,

2 informs the certifier of observed non3 compliances and changes in the OSP.

4 Two, informs the farmer of our

5 findings and assures comprehension of the

6 issue. And three, allows the inspector to

7 comment on things done well.

8 I witnessed exit interview forms

9 from a blank piece of paper to a detailed

10 form. However, I am encouraged to report that

11 your workshops and conference calls initiated

12 by the ACA two improvements have already

13 occurred. One, each certifier has done a

14 better job during the 2014 training of

15 communicating their expectations from the exit

16 interview and several of them have updated the

17 exit interview form.

18 The exit interview form should be

19 the capstone of the on farm inspection and

20 serve as a guidance document for the review.

21 Thanks to the cooperation among the certifiers

22 and with the IOIA in the dialogue, I am
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1 pleased to report that visibly improved exit

2 interview process that makes the expectations

3 more simple and more sensible for all parties.

4 We are encouraged to see the focus on

5 inspector qualifications during the last year.

6 However, IOIA has noted the lack of

7 commensurate emphasis on improved and uniform

8 review of training and qualifications. And

9 that would be the next area for focus, in our

10 opinion.

11 In summary, IOIA thanks Mac and

12 others for initiating the dialogue prior to

13 the Portland meeting, where all parties were

14 represented. It has been rewarding to note

15 the improvements to the Sound and Sensible

16 process related to inspectors and inspections

17 that already have been implemented. And we

18 commend the responsiveness of both the NOP and

19 the certifiers.

20 Thank you.

21 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Ib and

22 thank you for your work on helping us decide
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1 what is sound and sensible and getting it out

2 on the ground. As you said, the inspectors

3 are the face of organic to many people.

4 Is there any questions? All

5 right, thank you very much.

6 DR. HAGSTEN: Thank you.

7 CHAIR STONE: Thank you for being

8 here.

9 Margot Mastroud to the podium and

10 Amanda Love on deck. Margot?

11 MS. MASTROUD: Good morning. My

12 name is Margot Mastroud and I am a mother. I

13 am a wife. I am a small business owner. I am

14 a very concerned citizen. And I am here as a

15 member of the Cornucopia Institute. I am here

16 today as a citizen lobbyist.

17 I have volunteered to help present

18 testimony because, as a mother and a wife, it

19 is my honor and my duty to protect my family

20 and to ensure that the organic food that I am

21 feeding them keeps the integrity.

22 Today, I will talk about two
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1 materials petitioned for crop production,

2 vinasse and laminarin. Vinasse is a byproduct

3 of conventional molasses processing, which

4 itself is derived from sugar manufacturing.

5 The raw materials, sugar cane and sugar beets

6 are agricultural but many synthetic chemicals

7 are added in these processes. Vinasse

8 contains all of these chemicals, plus the

9 yeast added in fermentation. The sugar beets

10 and the yeast are likely genetically modified.

11 Some vinasse is produced through natural

12 processes. But other vinasse results from the

13 industrial process that would classify it as

14 synthetic.

15 We ask the Crops Subcommittee

16 classify the appropriate forms of vinasse as

17 synthetic. The proposal from the Crops

18 Subcommittee to address this issue by amending

19 NOP's draft guidance, known as NOP 5033 and

20 5034 should be rejected for two reasons.

21 First, this is draft guidance. It has not

22 been implemented.
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1 Second, being guidance, it was

2 written by the NOP and thus, it is subject to

3 change by the NOP at any time without further

4 input from the NOSB or the public.

5 Laminarin is used to boost plant

6 defense against disease. Laminarin is derived

7 from a natural product, a seaweed. So, it

8 might appear to be natural. However, it was

9 derived through an extraction process, using

10 synthetic materials, including sulfuric acid

11 and sodium hydroxide. The chemicals are not

12 removed from laminarin. Therefore, the final

13 extracted product must be considered

14 synthetic.

15 The final product to be used by

16 farmers must be reviewed by the entire NOSB to

17 determine if it is compatible with organic

18 production.

19 The Cornucopia Institute is

20 concerned about the process used to decide

21 whether a material is synthetic or non22 synthetic. We understand that the NOP
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1 reviewed laminarin before the volunteer NOSB

2 had a chance to review it. We would like to

3 remind everyone that consumers trust the

4 members of the NOSB to make decisions without

5 the influence of the government. The NOSB has

6 developed criteria on classifications of

7 materials and the NOP should adopt and follow

8 the criteria that the NOSB has already

9 developed.

10 If you have questions about this

11 testimony, I encourage you to speak with one

12 of the Cornucopia staff members present at the

13 meeting or, at your option, you can call one

14 of the expert staff up to the microphone right

15 now to answer your inquiries.

16 Thank you for your time.

17 (Applause.)

18 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Margot.

19 Amanda Love to the podium and

20 Gerald Davis on deck.

21 MS. LOVE: Hello. My name is

22 Amanda Love. I am also known as The Barefoot
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1 Cook. I live in Austin, Texas. I am a

2 professional natural food chef. I cook with

3 all organic natural food, nutrient-rich food.

4 Also I have been a nutritionist for many years

5 and I am a Board Member of the Cornucopia

6 Institute.

7 I am here today on behalf of the

8 Cornucopia Board to express our concern about

9 recent NOP unilateral actions taken without

10 the customary respect for NOSB members and the

11 public.

12 The organic industry was built

13 with grassroots support. The NOSB was

14 established by Congress with a diversity of

15 organic stakeholders to gather public input on

16 materials and policies.

17 The NOSB has always had wide

18 support in the organic community. From 2002

19 to 2012, the Policy and Procedures Manual,

20 PPM, was developed by the NOSB with all

21 revisions open to public comment. The

22 transparent process helped citizens support
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1 and trust the organic label.

2 That trust was wounded this past

3 fall when the NOP unilaterally reversed the

4 established Sunset process and undermined the

5 independence of the Board. When public

6 interest groups objected, the NOP simply

7 decided that they would disband the policy

8 subcommittee and implement the new edicts,

9 despite objections from many organic

10 stakeholders.

11 Cornucopia Board Member Barry

12 Flamm, immediate past NOSB Chair and former

13 Chair of the Policy Subcommittee stated,

14 quote, throwing out the PPM is destroying

15 decades of work with public involvement and

16 makes the NOSB practically worthless, end

17 quote.

18 It is the responsibility of the

19 NOSB, not the NOP to determine Sunset review

20 procedures. Mark Kastel submitted to you a

21 letter signed by former NOSB Chair Barry Flamm

22 and addressed to USDA Secretary Vilsack. The
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1 letter is also signed by former NOSB Chairman

2 Jim Riddle and Jeff Moyer. I trust you

3 respect these gentlemen as much as I do and I

4 hope the Secretary takes their concerns to

5 heart.

6 Under OFPA, the NOSB provides

7 advice on all aspects of organic regulations.

8 We believe they are legally able to set their

9 own work plan with priorities important to the

10 organic community. Cornucopia Board Members

11 have long been concerned about USDA's failure

12 to act on priority issues, including EPA list

13 for inerts, aquaculture standards, hydroponic

14 standards, origin of livestock and others.

15 And the law requires the Secretary

16 to set up a peer review panel for

17 accreditation. Where is that panel? The law

18 provides for the NOSB, not the NOP, to select

19 contractors to perform technical reviews.

20 Many of the current and past reviews are of

21 substandard quality and exhibit tremendous

22 bias and now the reviewers' identities are top
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1 secret.

2 And I know this would be a game

3 changer but the law gives the NOSB, not the

4 USDA Secretary, the power and authority to

5 hire the director of the NOP, Mr. McEvoy's

6 position, if, as the law requires, the chief

7 honcho at the NOP served at the pleasure of

8 the Board, the entire program would become

9 more accountable to the public.

10 Thank you to NOSB members for your

11 hard work.

12 (Applause.)

13 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

14 Gerald Davis to the podium and Terry Gong on

15 deck.

16 MR. DAVIS: Good morning. Gerald

17 Davis, Research Agronomist for Grimmway Cal18 Organic Farms in support of the continued use

19 of sulfurous acid in organic production.

20 Grimmway Cal-Organic Farms is a

21 California-based organic farm producing

22 organic vegetables. Cal-Organic Farms began
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1 in 1984 and became a part of Grimmway in 2001.

2 Since I started with the farm in 1993, it has

3 grown from 1,200 acres to 34,000 acres of

4 certified organic. We are still a privately5 owned LLC held by the Grimm family and we

6 grow, pack, and ship most everything that we

7 market.

8 One aspect of the fact that

9 Grimmway Cal-Organic is a family-owned farm is

10 that we operate our farm with practices that

11 foster the improvement of long-term soil

12 health. Every year, we grow thousands of

13 acres of green manure crops and incorporate

14 them back into the soil, along with natural

15 rock minerals. Cal-Organic is now reaping the

16 long-term benefits of those practices.

17 But we are here today to support a

18 very important soil health topic that concerns

19 this board. Like many farms in the western

20 U.S., we own land that is alkaline in nature

21 with irrigation water sources that tend to

22 keep it that way without proper amendments.
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1 Previously, we relied on elemental

2 sulfur applied to the soil, which was not very

3 effective in lowering soil pH. This process

4 was always hindered by the previously

5 mentioned alkaline water supplies that tend to

6 have high bicarbonate content. This

7 bicarbonate in the water would convert to

8 limestone when contacted our soils, which were

9 already high in pH, making limestone addition

10 an undesirable practice. We now own and

11 operate 15 sulfur-burning machines that treat

12 these type of water supplies with sulfurous

13 acid, which effectively and safely dissolves

14 the bicarbonate in the water, neutralizing it

15 from becoming limestone. For a typical

16 situation with our water supplies, we would be

17 applying 500 to 600 pounds of limestone to

18 every crop every year. This is detrimental,

19 in our case.

20 In my written comments I provided

21 soil test data showing the benefits we have

22 seen from the use of our sulfur burners.
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1 These benefits include lower soil pH,

2 declining limestone percentage, improved

3 sodium balances in the soil. We try to be

4 strategic on which areas we use the 15 sulfur

5 burners we have at an average cost of $25,000

6 per unit and we do not intend to buy any more

7 than necessary. The end result of using

8 sulfurous acid is the sulfate ion. When we

9 used to sulfur, soil sulfur, we had a lot

10 higher sulfate ion excesses. We don't have

11 that problem anymore.

12 My last comment. We would never

13 purposely apply sulfate to our western soils

14 because it is contained in many other things

15 that we use like gypsum and potassium sulfate.

16 So sulfur burners would never be used in

17 western soils for a sulfate ion source.

18 Sulfurous acid is a very specific

19 tool. It is very helpful to area region

20 growers. It is not for everyone. It is not

21 a nutrient supplier. It is a water treatment

22 method that increases the sustainability of
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1 area region agriculture very simply and

2 effectively in a way that mimics what comes

3 from rainfall that is mildly acidic already

4 due to global volcanism.

5 If you have any questions --

6 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, sir.

7 Questions? Zea?

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Of the crop mix

9 that you grow vegetables, are some crops

10 benefitting more by it and which crops would

11 you tend to grow in the fields that you were

12 able to treat the water with?

13 MR. DAVIS: It is beneficial to

14 the blueberries that we grow, although it is

15 a small acreage crop that we have but it is

16 beneficial to that. It is beneficial to many

17 of the crops that we grow. Specifically, we

18 address the water supplies that are high in

19 bicarbonate because those are detrimental to

20 all our crops in varying degrees.

21 CHAIR STONE: Okay, thank you,

22 sir. Thank you for being here.
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1 (Applause.)

2 CHAIR STONE: Terry Gong to the

3 podium and Andy Hudson on deck.

4 MR. GONG: Okay, my name is Terry

5 Gong. I am with Harmon Systems,

6 International. I am the original petitioner

7 for the on-site generation of sulfurous acid

8 for organic crop production and I am here to

9 obviously urge that this material be continued

10 on the approved materials list.

11 Okay. I am going to go -- I have

12 a bunch of slides here but I am going to go

13 through them very quickly. I just need about,

14 well, hopefully, four minutes to do it all but

15 I have some additional slides if there is any

16 questions that it might help serve answering.

17 Okay, volcanism, nature's natural

18 source of SO2. If you look at volcanism, when

19 the oxidation of sulfur into SO2 combined with

20 water, it forms HOSO3, which splits apart

21 immediately the hydrogen from the water and

22 creates bisulfate. But bisulfate is an
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1 interesting component because it feeds and

2 reenergize chemoheterotrophic bacterias. In

3 that process, it then causes the bisulfite to

4 render its free remaining hydrogen and then

5 turns to sulfate.

6 So, in that regard, the bisulfite

7 isn't -- when we amend the water, we are not

8 delivering a synthetic plant nutrient, as

9 claimed by those who want to remove the

10 sulfurous acid from the approved materials

11 list. This is a microbial conversion of the

12 bisulfate derived from the sulfurous acid into

13 sulfate. It is quite natural.

14 Okay, if we look at volcanism

15 again, we see that -- I know it is hard for

16 the audience to see this but rainwater pH

17 throughout the world is 5.6. It is not

18 neutral. And this is, the chart there is

19 basically from the EPA website and it shows

20 5.6. Acid rain starts when it is below 5.6.

21 And also the other chart there

22 showing, I have a circle around it, where we
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1 are showing the comparison of ocean water

2 alkalinity. There is some confusion or

3 mystification in the scientific community

4 about why the oceans may appear that they are

5 acidifying. I contend that because 73 percent

6 of the earth is covered by water and less than

7 five percent of the ocean floor has been

8 mapped, the mapping that we have found so far

9 that there are millions of active volcanos

10 underneath the ocean greater gradation and

11 intensity than anything going on on the

12 surface because the pH have been found in

13 close proximity 1.0 pH and teaming with

14 chemoheterotrophic bacteria organisms.

15 So, to continue, if volcanism

16 ceased on this planet, we could go by the way

17 of Mars, which we have never observed any

18 volcanism and that is why we see what is

19 hydrological activity and salt carbonates on

20 that planet surface.

21 Now, with respect to rain, if

22 rainwater is 5.6 and it falls heavily like
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1 let's say the Eastern Seaboard, 80 to 90

2 inches of rainfall, the soils are going to be

3 acidic. The western soils, we don't receive

4 that much rainfall. That is why our soils are

5 still basic.

6 Now, with respect to acid rain,

7 the problem with that is we are doing most of

8 our coal burning in a region where the soils,

9 the ecosystem have already lost their natural

10 buffering capability. And so that is why it

11 would be a problem.

12 The driver of these ecosystems?

13 It is the free hydrogen proton and the

14 bisulfate.

15 Wow. Okay, thank you.

16 CHAIR STONE: Do you teach it

17 somewhere where we could take your class and

18 learn some more?

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. GONG: I am happy to give

21 presentations to any organization that would

22 be happy to listen. Tomorrow I am going to be
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1 speaking to the Wastewater Treatment

2 Conference in California.

3 CHAIR STONE: Thank you for being

4 here sharing that with us. Questions?

5 Jean.

6 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Do you have a

7 copy of your presentation in a hard paper

8 version or could you email it to Ms.

9 Arsenault?

10 MR. GONG: Yes, she already has a

11 PDF copy of it.

12 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you.

13 CHAIR STONE: Yes, thanks for

14 asking that, Jean. Very good. Thank you for

15 your time for being here.

16 And I think we are just going to

17 keep running through to try to get caught up

18 a little bit before lunch. So, you should

19 take a break, kind of look and --

20 So, I have got Andy Hudson to the

21 podium and Dragan Macura on deck.

22 DR. HUDSON: Good morning. I am
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1 Dr. Andy Hudson, Senior Research Scientist at

2 Westbridge Agricultural Products. First,

3 Westbridge would like to thank the NOSB for

4 the opportunity to discuss issues related to

5 the proposed extension of streptomycin.

6 Westbridge introduced an organic

7 BioControl, Blossom Protect for the control of

8 fire blight, upon receiving EPA registration

9 in 2012. This was followed by California

10 registration in 2013. Prior to the EPA

11 registration, there were four years of

12 university trials from 2008 to 2011 in which

13 Blossom Protect showed consistent, reliable

14 control.

15 Westbridge would like to make

16 clear that it is not taking a position on

17 extending the deadline for streptomycin use in

18 organic orchards. We believe there are

19 compelling arguments by proponents for both

20 sides and we trust that the decision will be

21 made in the best interest of the organic

22 community. However, there are several
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1 organically-approved options for fire blight

2 control. Blossom Protect is one of the most

3 efficacious materials in combatting fire

4 blight, whether used as a stand-alone

5 application or as part of an integrated pest

6 management program.

7 Blossom Protect was first

8 developed and introduced in Europe. The

9 active ingredients are two proprietary strains

10 of a yeast-like fungus named Aureobasidium

11 pullulans, a naturally occurring epiphyte

12 found in hung fruit orchards. It is safe for

13 bees and beneficial insects.

14 Blossom Protect is a preventative

15 biocontrol product, which requires full

16 applications prior to the first infection.

17 Blossom Protect is always used in combination

18 with Buffer Protect.

19 In over six years of testing in

20 inoculated trials in the Pacific Northwest on

21 pome fruit, Blossom Protect has consistently

22 yielded results at a level comparable to
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1 antibiotics. These trials were conducted at

2 major universities by various respected fire

3 blight researchers.

4 I would like to point out that the

5 bars on the graph are proportional to the

6 infection. Therefore, the smaller bars

7 indicate superior control. Also, these

8 represent multiple years with variable

9 conditions in each year. Yet, consistent

10 control is achieved. I would just like to

11 point out that -- let me see if this pointer

12 works. Is there a pointer?

13 I just want to point out that the

14 control or the untreated are the red bars, the

15 antibiotic are the yellow bars, and Blossom

16 Protect is the green bars. In a number of

17 years, Blossom Protect performed superior to

18 the antibiotic.

19 Applications should be made for

20 the duration of the primary bloom cycle, when

21 possible. Multiple applications are crucial

22 in colonizing flowers that have emerged since
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1 a previous application. Early applications

2 help to build the population levels, while

3 applications made later in the bloom cycle

4 will help to ensure that all susceptible

5 tissue has been treated. These late

6 applications can be very critical but

7 applications made after petal fall are

8 restricted and off-label.

9 Most biopesticides with a living

10 active ingredient such as Blossom Protect will

11 have some constraints, compared to traditional

12 chemistries. In summary, with its

13 demonstrated efficacy, organic approval, and

14 pollinator and worker safety, Blossom Protect

15 represents a valuable tool to combat fire

16 blight.

17 I am here with Tina Koenemann,

18 President of Westbridge and Dr. Larry Parker,

19 Director of Research and Development. We are

20 available for more information or discussions,

21 if desired. Thank you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, sir.
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1 Harold?

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you. One

3 question for you. Your comment was that the

4 Blossom Protect efficacy-wise, was comparable

5 to that of the antibiotics. But yet,

6 application would be off-label post-bloom.

7 Whereas, fire blight doesn't just affect trees

8 at bloom time. What would be the efficacy or

9 what would we use to control if we were not to

10 have antibiotics post-bloom for tip light or

11 say we had a crop that got hail injury?

12 DR. HUDSON: That would be the one

13 the situation in which Blossom Protect would

14 not be able to fill the gap.

15 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. And

17 thank you for bringing us some alternative

18 materials to use. But I would like to know

19 what your research results may be in the

20 Central Valley and Delta of California on

21 pears, where the conditions are very warm and

22 humid in the winter, relative to the Pacific
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1 Northwest where your research has been

2 conducted.

3 DR. HUDSON: We have done trials

4 in California on pear and it has worked fairly

5 well on pear without a problem. The biggest

6 problem with pear that I have seen is that it

7 does have a tendency towards a more protracted

8 bloom. And so when you get out -- you know

9 there is a lot more secondary bloom or rat

10 tail. So, that is, I think, the biggest issue

11 on treating the pear. It actually is more

12 efficacious on pear when it is applied in the

13 bloom cycle and there is a restricted bloom.

14 It does work very well on pear.

15 The issue with pear is the

16 extended secondary bloom, especially on some

17 cultivars. This product will definitely work

18 better in a typical bloom year, where it is

19 more constrained in duration. Thank you.

20 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Oh,

21 Francis.

22 MEMBER THICKE: The data you show,
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1 did you use Blossom Protect beyond the bloom

2 period in those charts or only until the

3 bloom?

4 DR. HUDSON: No, sir. Those were

5 only during the bloom period that those

6 applications were made.

7 MEMBER THICKE: Okay.

8 DR. HUDSON: A number of them will

9 have some thinning treatments done prior,

10 early in the bloom. A lot of times in Pacific

11 Northwest they use fish oil with lime sulfur

12 to thin and then Blossom Protect, a couple of

13 applications during the bloom cycle.

14 MEMBER THICKE: Okay, a follow-up.

15 We have heard some rumors that it hasn't

16 worked in some cases. Would you comment on

17 that what might be the reason? Was it not

18 used properly?

19 DR. HUDSON: I would like to know

20 a little more information on those rumors or

21 reports because I run the field trials and I

22 haven't received those indications. The only
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1 indications I have seen that I would say are

2 a little questionable would be when there is

3 no fire blight pressure to begin with. And

4 then how do you control -- how do you say

5 whether you got control if there wasn't

6 pressure to begin with due to the

7 environmental conditions that year. But I

8 haven't specifically seen where there have

9 been issues in it not performing when it has

10 been applied during the bloom cycle.

11 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

12 And as Zea said, thank you for your work and

13 thank you for being here.

14 DR. HUDSON: Thank you.

15 (Applause.)

16 CHAIR STONE: Dragan to the podium

17 and Nate Lewis on deck.

18 MR. MACURA: Thank you. May name

19 is Dragan Macura and I am the founder and the

20 chief science officer of AgroThrive,

21 Incorporated. A lot of you probably remember

22 me from being in the eye of the storm on the
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1 discussions about corn steep liquor. And I am

2 here today to talk about organic fertilizers

3 in general. I have a comment on the vinasse

4 and I also have a suggestion as to how to deal

5 with the residual concentrations of

6 objectionable materials in raw materials for

7 fertilizers.

8 So, organic fertilizers are, as we

9 probably know but haven't thought about it too

10 much, foundational or everything organic.

11 Everything we eat or use in organic industry

12 has either been fertilized or has been fed on

13 something that has been fertilized at some

14 point in time.

15 So, organic fertilizers are at the

16 bottom of the pyramid of our whole system and

17 we should always keep that in mind when we are

18 making decisions on whether to include or

19 exclude any raw materials for organic

20 fertilizers. We already are in very short

21 supply of raw materials for organic

22 fertilizers and with increased tendency to
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1 exclude raw materials because they have

2 objectionable residuals, it is increasingly

3 worrisome that our whole industry has no basis

4 upon which to grow. And we have heard many

5 groups and many people talk about wanting to

6 protect organic integrity and also increase or

7 grow organic industry but always looking at

8 ways to eliminate raw materials for organic

9 fertilizers.

10 And so with that, I would like to

11 suggest that when there is a question on the

12 table whether to include or exclude the

13 material, please remember that rules that have

14 been made for organic industry, for food

15 industry, have usually been made on the basis

16 of the materials for human consumption. These

17 are fertilizers. Fertilizers have to be

18 processed in some way before they get into

19 soil. Soil itself has enormous microbial

20 activity and ability to degrade, to digest,

21 and to neutralize a lot of objectionable

22 materials.
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1 One of the processes, our process,

2 for example, that we use is on progressive

3 digestion process. And I just want to show

4 you a bunch of slides that will demonstrate

5 how we degrade very objectionable and in fact

6 probably environmentally dangerous materials

7 to very useful fertilizers that are done in

8 about three times, rather than in long, long

9 time, six weeks to six months, maybe years in

10 the environment.

11 So, we start with very

12 objectionable, environmentally objectionable,

13 and also dangerous material on the pathogenic,

14 on the microbial point of view, et cetera.

15 Fish, for example, fish waste. We

16 take fish waste. We grind it, a bunch of

17 grinding processes and yes, we add it to corn

18 steep liquor in this case. We can use other

19 materials that will liquefy the process. Then

20 we take it through a bunch of digestion tanks.

21 We have primary digestion, secondary

22 digestion, and in three weeks we turn it into
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1 liquid portion which is our product and then

2 a solid portion which has been heat-treated,

3 highly digested, very safe, very good

4 nutrients for soil, et cetera. These are the

5 microbes that end up as champions of that

6 process. Very beneficial to soil. Very safe

7 in the environmental terms.

8 So, this system can be used if you

9 want to challenge the material with, for

10 example, antibiotics, or any other materials

11 that are objectionable in fertilizers as raw

12 inputs. And if these materials are not

13 degraded or otherwise digested, then we should

14 restrict them. Otherwise, then they have gone

15 through a process like this, they should be

16 allowed to be used as raw materials.

17 Thank you. I'm sorry about

18 running over.

19 CHAIR STONE: All right. Thank

20 you, sir. Thanks for being here.

21 Nate Lewis to the podium and

22 Rebecca Thistlewaite on deck.
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1 MR. LEWIS: Good morning. I am

2 Nate Lewis with Organic Trade Association. I

3 am the Senior Crops and Livestock Specialist.

4 OTA represents over 6,500 businesses engaged

5 in the organic industry across 49 states and

6 I am happy to be here to address some of the

7 items on the agenda at this meeting.

8 OTA supports sound, pragmatic, and

9 consistent evaluation of National List

10 materials. This is why we support tabling the

11 recommendations on aquaculture. This is why

12 we support the petition annotation change for

13 the listing in methionine in poultry rations

14 as passed by the Livestock Subcommittee. And

15 this is also why we caution against the

16 selective use of annotations redundant to

17 practice standards and OFPA provisions.

18 Proposed standards for aquaculture

19 are long overdue. We understand the desire to

20 usher along the implementation of these

21 standards by prioritizing the review of

22 petitioned aquaculture materials. However, we
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1 recommend the board table the aquaculture

2 materials recommendations until a production

3 standard is released.

4 Sound assessment of National List

5 materials role in a practice standard is

6 critical to determining essentiality.

7 On methionine, our poultry

8 producing membership represents a wide range

9 of operations covering the entire United

10 States from smaller operations with pasture11 based approach to larger operations with

12 nationally distributed labels. Reports from

13 all sizes of operations indicate that the

14 step-down of allowed methionine in organic

15 feed has resulted in an increase in animal

16 welfare issues, like feather-pulling and

17 cannibalism.

18 The petitioners request that

19 methionine levels be averaged over the

20 lifetime of the animal, much like how dry

21 matter intake is calculated for ruminant

22 animals over the course of the grazing season.
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1 This pragmatic approach would satisfy one of

2 the basic tenants of preventative livestock

3 healthcare, which is to provide feed rations

4 sufficient to meet nutritional requirements.

5 It also resulted in no increase in the use of

6 synthetic substances on the National List. We

7 urge the Board to accept the recommendation of

8 the subcommittee and allow organic poultry

9 producers to provide rations adaptable to the

10 changing demands of their flocks.

11 In regards to an overall comment

12 on NOSB's material review process, applying

13 annotations redundant to practice standards

14 and OFPA provisions are a result of political

15 compromises, a vote of no confidence in

16 current practice standards.

17 Once in a while you get shown the

18 light in the strangest of places, if you look

19 at it right. But forcing farmers and handlers

20 defend the light or defend their production

21 system with the selective use of annotations

22 and materials shifts the perception of organic
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1 from one of an integrated process-based

2 standard, to one of input substitution.

3 Shifting this perspective does not foster

4 confidence in the consistent application of

5 the organic standards in OFPA.

6 Consistency in how the Board the

7 reviews, renews, and repeals substances on a

8 National List can also reduce NOP's rulemaking

9 burden. Freeing up resources at NOP will

10 enable them to act on long-awaited practice

11 standard recommendations like origin of

12 livestock and animal welfare.

13 We also believe that consistency

14 in the Board's material review is essential to

15 attracting additional farmers to organic

16 practices, expanding organic acreage, and in

17 continuing to grow the organic sector.

18 Please table the recommendations

19 of aquaculture materials, allow organic

20 poultry producers to adapt feed rations, to

21 changing nutritional demands, and maintain

22 consistency in National List material review.
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1 Thanks.

2 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Nate.

3 Jean?

4 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Hi, Nate.

5 Just one quick question. Have you done any

6 kind of a survey of your poultry producers to

7 see if all sizes of producing facilities are

8 using methionine from the very small to the

9 very large in your system?

10 MR. LEWIS: Well, you are going to

11 hear from a number of members that represent

12 that full range of skills of operations in

13 public comment coming up. So, I am going to

14 let them talk about the specifics there.

15 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you for

17 your statement. Can you give us a little more

18 detail on how the streamlining will free up

19 resources? If I understood you correctly, you

20 were saying that the review process, the new

21 review process will free up resources so that

22 the Program can do other things.
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1 MR. LEWIS: Well, we are just

2 responding to the statement NOP released when

3 it issued its new Sunset.

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: So, you don't

5 have an independent assessment of that

6 statement?

7 MR. LEWIS: No, we usually trust

8 the NOP to gauge its ability to enact

9 rulemaking.

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay.

11 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Nate.

12 (Applause.)

13 CHAIR STONE: Rebecca Thistlewaite

14 to the podium and Ernie Peterson on deck.

15 MS. THISTLEWAITE: Hello and good

16 morning. My name is Rebecca Thistlewaite and

17 I am from Hood River, Oregon.

18 I was recently hired as a policy

19 analyst for the Cornucopia Institute with a

20 specialty in livestock policy. I am also a

21 small-scale vegetable a livestock farmer. And

22 I previously owned a certified organic
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1 livestock and poultry farm in California. And

2 so I know firsthand about poultry production.

3 I am speaking today on the subject

4 of synthetic methionine. I know this is a

5 controversial synthetic amino acid and I, too,

6 have wavered on my stance as I learn more

7 about it and I talk to other producers and

8 feed mills.

9 The Cornucopia supports the

10 livestock subcommittee proposal to amend the

11 current language on synthetic methionine to

12 include changing -- allowing producers to

13 average the inclusion rates over the life of

14 the flock. So, two pounds for layers and

15 broilers and three pounds for turkeys and

16 other poultry.

17 I know some other NGOs don't

18 support this amendment but because of input

19 from our strong constituency of organic farmer

20 members, the Cornucopia Institute perceives

21 the need for a more measured response to the

22 issue of methionine use.
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1 We understand that the current

2 step-down amounts have led to poultry health

3 issues, longer grow out times and reduced egg

4 production. We can't just phase out synthetic

5 methionine without considering the management

6 practices of modern day organic poultry.

7 The bigger issues is the very

8 restricted diet of corn and soy that most

9 organic poultry have to obtain all their

10 essential amino acids and also the lack of

11 meaningful outdoor access. Yes, there are

12 alternative feedstuffs that can be added into

13 poultry rations to increase methionine rates.

14 That is good and diets should be more diverse.

15 But truly getting the birds out on quality

16 pasture, eating bugs, warms, and vegetation

17 can actually satisfy the vast majority of

18 methionine needs.

19 The problem is two-fold, though.

20 U.S. Organic Poultry does not have meaningful

21 outdoor access and stocking densities are too

22 high for the birds to obtain much nutrition if
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1 they do get to go outdoors. European Union

2 organic rules require that organic laying hens

3 and broilers have at least 43 square feet of

4 outdoor space per bird. The NOP is

5 considering animal welfare standards that

6 would only include two square feet of outdoor

7 space per bird. So, clearly, there is a

8 difference in what the European Union model is

9 and what we are suggesting in the United

10 States.

11 Forty-three square feet per bird

12 actually is equivalent to only a thousand

13 birds per acre. The NOP has basically

14 abdicated their responsibility in enforcing

15 the animal welfare aspects of the organic

16 regulations.

17 Let's get our organic poultry

18 outside on a pasture eating diverse diets and

19 generally accommodating the health and natural

20 behaviors of the birds as OFPA states and as

21 required under organic regulations. Then, it

22 will be much easier to address the nutritional
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1 needs for methionine with natural supplements.

2 If the Livestock Subcommittee

3 amendment does pass, we also ask that the NOSB

4 pass a resolution stating their commitment to

5 aggressive research into alternatives to

6 synthetic methionine, as well as a commitment

7 to a true Sunset in 2019.

8 Thank you for allowing me to

9 present testimony. I would be happy to take

10 any questions now.

11 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much,

12 Rebecca. Ernie -- I'm sorry. Zea.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you,

14 Rebecca.

15 Has your investigation into the

16 methionine and its alternatives turned up how

17 feasible it is the suggestion that was given

18 by a couple of other commenters about the

19 Black Soldier worms and whether this can soon,

20 if not right now, become a viable alternative

21 addition to feed for methionine?

22 MS. THISTLEWAITE: Sure. Yes, I
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1 did do quite a bit of research in Black

2 Soldier fly meal. It does look like it has a

3 lot of potential not only for methionine but

4 also to address protein needs for poultry.

5 However, the FDA has not approved it yet in

6 poultry feed. I did contact a manufacturer

7 who is commercializing it and they have got it

8 approved for shrimp production but they think

9 it is going to take another three to five

10 years before FDA approves it for poultry.

11 So, it does look like it is a

12 viable alternative but we are not there yet.

13 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Jay.

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. If I

15 understand it correctly, methionine or others

16 is being used as an animal welfare tool. Is

17 that correct? And if so, how can we be

18 assured that we will get to an actual Sunset

19 in 2019 or whenever it is?

20 MS. THISTLEWAITE: Well, it is an

21 essential amino acid, essential for poultry

22 growth. So, if you take it away from them
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1 without providing alternatives, it does turn

2 into an animal welfare problem because it

3 increases feather pecking and there is a range

4 of other health issues.

5 I am on a Listserv of the American

6 Pastured Poultry Producers Association and

7 there is 600 members. I asked people what

8 they were seeing as a result of the step-down

9 and even pastured producers were seeing health

10 problems in their flocks.

11 So, it does turn it into an animal

12 welfare issue when you just turn it off.

13 What was your second questions?

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, how do we

15 get to the Sunset then, if we are not adopting

16 actual animal welfare standards as you

17 describe? I don't see how we get to that

18 Sunset that you advised the Board that we

19 should get to.

20 MS. THISTLEWAITE: Yes, the

21 Cornucopia does support the animal welfare

22 standards that were developed for poultry a
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1 couple years ago. I would say that they are

2 very baseline. I think we actually need to do

3 much more than those standards. So, we would

4 encourage the NOP to make some movement on

5 that, while sticking to a sunset data of 2019

6 for methionine. I think if those two things

7 go hand-in-hand, we will get to the place

8 where we need to be.

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Oh,

10 Nick?

11 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, I was

12 wondering if you could comment on the other --

13 you indicated there were a variety of sources

14 for methionine. Could you comment on the

15 other sources of methionine that are not

16 facing any regulatory barriers that are

17 currently available to poultry producers? And

18 specifically, what would be the cost

19 implication? Would they cost more, cost less,

20 of including those in a poultry ration?

21 MS. THISTLEWAITE: Yes, sure.

22 There are some great alternatives. Dried whey
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1 is one that is commercially available and in

2 an organic form. But a lot of the

3 alternatives are not available in an organic

4 form, such as corn gluten meal or potato meal.

5 There is just not any production of it.

6 Some of the other alternatives

7 include fish meal, which there is serious

8 sustainability issues around fish meal. Crab

9 meal can be great but it is usually preserved

10 with a synthetic called ethoxyquin, which we

11 can't use. Some impart bad flavors, like flax

12 meal. If you give more than five percent flax

13 meal, you are going to have fishy eggs. Some

14 of low digestibility. So, even if they have

15 high MET, they are not in a digestible form.

16 And then some aren't approved yet, like I

17 mentioned with the Black Soldier fly meal.

18 So, feed mills are using

19 alternatives right now because they are only

20 allowed to use two pounds per ton. But birds

21 actually need more like I think with layers

22 they actually need like 0.37 percent. So,
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1 they are using natural sources already to

2 supply that additional methionine. So, things

3 like canola meal, sunflower meal, some crab

4 meal that is naturally preserved. So, they

5 are using some of those alternatives.

6 A couple of the feed mills that I

7 interviewed when doing this research said that

8 if the biggest vertically-integrated egg

9 operations in the country started using these

10 alternative methionine inputs, they would take

11 up the entire supply that is available and

12 there wouldn't be any left for smaller

13 producers.

14 Now, of course that may stimulate

15 new production but there is always a lag

16 between demand and supply.

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: What is the

18 applicability of using organic alfalfa as a

19 supplement as well?

20 MS. THISTLEWAITE: Yes, alfalfa

21 meal does provide some methionine in small

22 quantities but whenever you are making a
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1 poultry ration, even if something has

2 methionine, it is all about balancing all

3 these different nutrients and anti-nutrients,

4 too. So, I don't know enough about alfalfa in

5 particular.

6 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much,

7 Rebecca.

8 MS. THISTLEWAITE: Thanks.

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you for your

10 work. Ernie Peterson to the podium and Chris

11 Pierce on deck.

12 MR. PETERSON: Good morning. I'm

13 going to use up my time just getting the mike

14 adjusted. Well, you can wait. We'll be done

15 by lunch.

16 Good morning, again. I am Ernie

17 Peterson, Cashton, Wisconsin. We have Cashton

18 Farm Supply, CFS Specialty in the soy press

19 facility to Brodhead called Super Soy. We

20 have been certified organic sin 1996.

21 My positions as a feed

22 nutritionist and feed manufacturer, we are
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1 presently feeding somewhere around 190 to 200

2 organic layers. Most of these are smaller

3 flocks from 2,500 birds, lots than 2,500 to

4 5,000 bird barns, up to 20,000 bird barns.

5 Thank you guys for addressing this

6 issue. You have been fighting with it for a

7 while and it needs some change.

8 I am here to support the life of

9 the flock, rather than the two pounds per ton,

10 and there are four points I really want to

11 address, the science, the humane treatment of

12 the chickens, it is not fair by region, the

13 present formula we have, and the environmental

14 concerns.

15 The science. That has been

16 addressed and studies continue and we will

17 hear more about that.

18 The humane treatment of the birds.

19 We all know and we see it in these small

20 barns, when a bird or a layer is short of a

21 feeding ingredient, they will find the

22 ingredient. We call it feather pecking. For
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1 the most part, they want to eat flesh to get

2 the methionine and it is cannibalism. So,

3 that is what we are seeing in what we refer to

4 the humane. It is the feather pecking but

5 mainly the eating of flesh to satisfy their

6 need for methionine.

7 The other point that I want to

8 make and that becomes is temperature, its

9 fairness to make a level playing field. We

10 ship feed into Canada and we also ship a

11 decent amount of feed into Texas. In the

12 north in Wisconsin, our birds are regularly

13 eating 25 to 30 pounds of feed for every 100

14 birds. Once we move into this Arkansas/Texas

15 area, 18 to 24 pounds becomes the maximum.

16 The advantage in the north we have is those

17 birds with two pounds per ton are

18 automatically consuming about 20 percent more

19 methionine just because of where they live.

20 The problem I have is that doesn't make a fair

21 playing field for an organic producer. If you

22 live in the north, cooler temperature, you
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1 have an advantage with the rule.

2 The environmental concerns. Two

3 pounds per ton versus the life of the flock

4 forces us to use more protein in the early

5 stages of production. We have the ammonia

6 issues in the house, both for the people and

7 the birds that causes or forces us to spread

8 more nitrogen on the field, which ends up in

9 the water. The extra protein also forces more

10 beans to be growing and, at this point, with

11 the lack of acreage that we have, it is the

12 imports that we have the emphasis on.

13 Once again, the four points that I

14 think are important to me are the science, the

15 humane treatment of birds, it is not a fair

16 playing field right now, and what we are doing

17 by the environment by forcing more free

18 nitrogen out there.

19 I want to thank you for your time

20 and urge you to change the rulings for the

21 life of the flock. Thank you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Ernie.
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1 Francis?

2 MR. PETERSON: Yes.

3 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you, Ernie.

4 Have you had any experience with the high

5 methionine corn? I know it was developed or

6 worked on in Wisconsin. Have you grown it?

7 MR. PETERSON: We have grown it.

8 The early high methionine was a waxy corn.

9 And that certainly did not have the yield,

10 probably about the half the yield of

11 conventional. I have met with Walter

12 Goldstein. That was last week. They have a

13 new genetic out. They have some investors

14 that were up from Chicago.

15 Presently, they have enough corn

16 seed for about 200 acres this year. They are

17 looking for investors. It is not going to

18 take away the methionine. They are changing

19 methionine level in corn from a 0.015 to a

20 0.025 to a 0.03. That is going to allow us a

21 full corn diet, corn-soy ration to get rid of

22 about a quarter pound of methionine per ton.
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1 So, it will help but even the new

2 genetics they have of the corn is not going to

3 solve it.

4 We mentioned alfalfa. We use

5 alfalfa. Most rations for xanthophyll, for

6 the egg yolk color and to try and pick up the

7 methionine. Obviously, they need some

8 practice to try and get as close as we can.

9 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to go on

10 but I hope I answered your questions.

11 CHAIR STONE: And there are going

12 to be, looking at the list, there is like six

13 or seven more presenters on methionine coming

14 up behind here. So, thank you very much.

15 MR. PETERSON: If I could make one

16 quick comment is in the late lay stage, we

17 have adequate methionine under where we are at

18 now. It is these bringing the birds into lay

19 and when the birds are laying at high

20 production, in growing this stuff.

21 So, thank you for your time.

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, very
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1 much.

2 (Applause.)

3 CHAIR STONE: Chris Pierce to the

4 podium and Melvin Gaimain on deck.

5 MR. PIERCE: Good morning ladies

6 and gentlemen of the National Organic

7 Standards Board, our friends from the NOP and

8 all of those sitting in the audience this

9 morning. My name is Chris Pierce. I am from

10 Annville, Pennsylvania, which is south-central

11 Pennsylvania. We live just a few miles from

12 the sweetest place on earth, Hershey,

13 Pennsylvania.

14 I have shared before with this

15 Board and again, I thank you. And I am going

16 to go quick. You are the most involved

17 voluntary board of anything I have ever seen

18 in my life and I thank you for your sincere

19 dedication.

20 I am here to talk a little bit

21 about specifically methionine and I am going

22 to touch on animal welfare.
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1 The company I am with is Heritage

2 Poultry Management Services. We are a

3 management company. We have been involved in

4 organic production since 1997. Today, we work

5 with over 100 small family farms that are

6 producing non-caged eggs. Around 60 of those

7 small family farms are certified organic and

8 that is why I am here today.

9 I am the face of the small family

10 farms from south-central Pennsylvania that

11 aren't able to be here today in beautiful

12 Texas. And I carry that burden to share their

13 successes and their concerns with you.

14 As I think about our small family

15 farmer, he is probably 35 -- he or she. We

16 have a good amount of female poultry farmers,

17 too. Our average age is around 35 years of

18 age, compared to USDA's 58 years of age. So,

19 the organic opportunity has breathed fresh air

20 of new opportunity for farmers. And our

21 farming community in our nation is shrinking,

22 not growing. Within the segment of organic,
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1 it is growing and we are thankful for that.

2 So, as I think about those, we at

3 Heritage and the 60 organic family farmers

4 that I represent range in farm sizes from

5 4,000 hens up to around 20,000 bird barns of

6 two on a farm, so they could have up to 40,000

7 birds on the farm.

8 We are in support of the

9 Livestock's Committee's motion that the

10 Subcommittee has approved a methionine use

11 changing from two pound per ton to a two pound

12 over the life of a flock.

13 From the experiences we have seen,

14 we have seen -- we are very data driven. All

15 of our farmers give us a weekly breakdown of

16 livability and feed consumption and water

17 consumption and egg production. And we have

18 our service technicians visit the farms on a

19 weekly basis to hold the hand of the farmer to

20 help them succeed with complying with the food

21 safety, animal welfare, the organic

22 certifications, all these details. Our
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1 service people and our company is there to

2 help the farm succeed.

3 We have, as Mr. Peterson, just

4 said, seen a significant increase in mortality

5 due to the decreased level of methionine. We,

6 too, are formulating sunflower meal, canola

7 meal, alfalfa, many of the ingredients that

8 were talked about earlier in addition to our

9 corn and soy diet. And that is just to try to

10 balance out to utilize what we can.

11 This does tie into animal welfare

12 and I would like to strongly encourage the NOP

13 to take the actions that this Board had passed

14 in December of 2011 and support that the

15 consumers are getting the eggs that they

16 believe organic stands for, in addition to the

17 grain source that organic hens are fed, it is

18 the welfare standards, as well as the types of

19 farms that are producing those eggs.

20 We support the two square foot

21 minimum standard that was set for outdoor

22 access and allow farmers to put more in place,
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1 if they choose to do so. We understand many

2 retailers around the country that are

3 featuring and selling organic eggs, they, too,

4 are starting to take their own position

5 because of the NOP taking regulatory

6 positions, retailers such as Whole Foods and

7 many others are looking at how do they

8 standardize and create standards that the NOP

9 is not going to, because they see the value of

10 helping consumers understand that there is

11 value to clarifying the unknown. And I want

12 to strongly encourage that.

13 So, as I think about the

14 successes, I would like to go back to say

15 there is many small family farms that can

16 invest 30, 40, 50 million dollars in a venture

17 that can put in a half a million, a million,

18 which is a lifetime's worth of money for all

19 of us here, but they can invest that into

20 developing egg farms -- I'm done -- egg farms

21 to meet consumers' expectations. And

22 consumers' expectations are welfare and also
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1 the types of outdoor access that are

2 encouraged.

3 So, thank you to the Board for

4 allowing me to share my comments.

5 MEMBER THICKE: Can I ask a quick

6 question?

7 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Chris.

8 Francis.

9 MEMBER THICKE: You said that the

10 chickens are cage free. Can you describe what

11 kind of access to the outdoors they have?

12 MR. PIERCE: Sure. So, we work

13 with -- we don't discriminate whether they are

14 organic or fed conventional feeds that are

15 non-caged. So, the outdoor access of all the

16 organic egg farms, we have transitioned.

17 Because before, as we know, there was no

18 definition of outdoor access. Even as it

19 stands today, it can be this little atrium

20 area could be enough for 30,000 chickens. And

21 as we sit here and think there is no way that

22 could be 30,000, we have transitioned into our
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1 company having a minimum of two square foot

2 per bird. And I would say they were probably

3 around 70 percent compliant because you have

4 to think about it.

5 So before, if you had a half a

6 foot a bird, let's be realistic, if you had a

7 half a foot a bird before and you need to

8 expand to two foot or more, you also have to

9 make sure that the ground you are expanding to

10 meets the 36 months without any prohibitive

11 materials. So, for many farmers across the

12 United States, we do have buffer zones but if

13 we exceed where that buffer zone is, we need

14 to allow time for our farmers to follow

15 organic standards on that additional land.

16 So, it could be another year until all of our

17 farms will be able to be at that minimum to

18 two square foot.

19 And I know the NOP, as they pass

20 guidelines, they do give a time line in which

21 farms can adapt to meet the new standards.

22 And we are just pleading with the NOP to come
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1 up with some proposed rules so we can get to

2 final rules and move forward with this.

3 CHAIR STONE: Jennifer?

4 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you for your

5 presentation.

6 MR. PIERCE: Sure.

7 MEMBER TAYLOR: I would like to

8 know if you are aware of any existing

9 scenarios where methionine would not be

10 necessary.

11 MR. PIERCE: That is a good

12 question. Some people are saying if the birds

13 weren't on a corn and soy diet, if they were

14 all living outside, and again, I am not an

15 expert, the next speaker is my father-in-law,

16 so I trust my father-in-law. He has a little

17 bit more knowledge and experience on

18 nutrition. So, I am not aware of any. And

19 even as has been shared by Cornucopia and

20 Ernie earlier, I am not aware of any flocks

21 that are able to -- that are producing eggs

22 without some level of a synthetic methionine.
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1 Even as we look at Europe and we talk about

2 Europe, we tout Europe, remember there are 95

3 percent rules. They have a five percent non4 organic allowance. So, there are some other

5 things -- long answer: no.

6 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you,

7 very much.

8 MR. PIERCE: Thank you.

9 CHAIR STONE: Mr. Father-in-Law to

10 the podium and Randy Mitchell on deck.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. GAIMAN: Greetings to the NOSB

13 and the NOP. I want to thank the Standards

14 Board for volunteering your time and

15 understanding how the standards affect real

16 people. I want to talk about methionine and

17 animal welfare.

18 My name is Mel Gaiman. I am the

19 founder of Heritage Poultry Management

20 Services and past president. Heritage was

21 founded in poultry management services in 1980

22 and I served on the five-year term on the
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1 Pennsylvania Certified Organic Board. And my

2 interest has been in providing best husbandry

3 to hens and to produce the best products for

4 the consumer.

5 Pennsylvania has about two million

6 hens that meet the present outdoor access

7 provisions. And our company has been

8 certified in organic egg production since 1998

9 and involved in at least 50 percent of

10 Pennsylvania organic egg production on family

11 farms. From the beginning, our goal is to be

12 transparent and to anticipate consumer

13 expectations in organic eggs. Each of our

14 organic egg layer houses has approximately

15 $18,000 hens with two square foot outdoor

16 access, which Chris had mentioned.

17 We do have -- have had searched

18 for feedstuffs and anticipated -- to

19 anticipate all natural methionine. And we

20 have worked with Penn State University and

21 Doctors Heather Burley and Paul Patterson have

22 been doing research in fractionation of
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1 natural methionine to concentrate it from

2 organic feedstuffs. Although the progress has

3 been incremental, there needs to be much more

4 done.

5 The available amount of natural

6 methionine has been outpaced by the U.S.'s

7 growing demand by consumers for organic

8 protein foods. We need fermentation of

9 natural methionine. I understand the

10 companies are working on that.

11 A couple years' ago, I checked

12 with a couple companies that I had thought

13 there was some anticipated some possibility.

14 But to this point, the process has been

15 difficult. The need for synthetic methionine

16 in high levels for peak growth and demands for

17 poultry, lower levels than adequate create

18 welfare issues.

19 We continue to need the amount of

20 two pounds' average on the synthetic

21 methionine for the life of the bird and we

22 support that process. It is time to put the
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1 effects of animal welfare standards in poultry

2 for outdoor space as laid out by the NOSB for

3 2011. Thank you.

4 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Mr.

5 Gaiman. Jean?

6 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Hi.

7 MR. GAIMAN: Hi, Jean.

8 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Am I correct

9 in understanding that over the last 20 years

10 or so, the change in the breeding of poultry

11 to give us either on the one hand fast-growing

12 birds for meat or lots of eggs from the egg

13 layers, as resulted in much higher nutritional

14 demands, so that methionine is necessary

15 because of that, in part, regardless of

16 whether it is a really small farm outside on

17 pasture or in a larger production unit?

18 MR. GAIMAN: You are correct about

19 the process of genetic selection. It has gone

20 over the last hundred years and it has been

21 great strides to meet the efficiencies.

22 America has been great on producing low-cost
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1 food and poultry has been a leader in that.

2 And so it is hard to go back in

3 time. If we supported, even in the early

4 '60s, hens laid a lot fewer eggs than they do

5 today. So, that is some of the problem.

6 CHAIR STONE: Nick.

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: You know I would

8 like to follow up on Jean's question. Could

9 you just give us a rough idea of with the

10 flocks that you are associated with, what is

11 the percentage of laying production over the

12 life of those flocks and what do you consider

13 to be an inadequate level of egg production,

14 in other words, no longer economically

15 feasible or whatever?

16 MR. GAIMAN: Nick, I'm not sure if

17 I understood the exact point, the methionine

18 level?

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: No, I am asking

20 for, under current practice, how many eggs

21 would you expect to get from your average hen

22 per day or per week or whatever. And when
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1 does that -- when, it falls to a certain

2 level, what is that level that is seen to be

3 not viable anymore? And how long do you keep

4 the flocks that you are associated with, how

5 long do you keep the flocks?

6 MR. GAIMAN: Well, that is a good

7 question. On the present cost of organic

8 ingredients, the hen, at peak production, the

9 cost of the hen is like $12 a bird. So, you

10 need to get adequate production over the life

11 of that flock.

12 So, to answer your question, the

13 flocks peak when they are young, 30-some

14 weeks' of age. And the end of the flock is

15 like a little over a year. So, they lay for

16 about 56 to 58 weeks and around 300 eggs. So,

17 over that cycle, there is a decreasing.

18 So, the inefficiency would be when

19 the feed costs are high and the production is

20 low, then the flock would have to be removed.

21 But you would have to get the high

22 depreciation value of the high cost of the
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1 original bird.

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: I guess my

3 point, I am trying to give a tangible idea to

4 people. If let's say the ideal would be to

5 get one egg over that 300 plus days per day,

6 you are not going to get that ever out of a

7 flock, when it gets to what percentage do you

8 really start to feel the hurt? I mean when

9 you go down to 80 percent, 70 percent, 60

10 percent? Where does that number sort of

11 really hurt?

12 MR. GAIMAN: Well, with the

13 competitive nature of the egg industry, if you

14 are laying five percent less than the normal

15 for your genetic anticipation, and we follow

16 our flocks every week, based on the need

17 performance and what we are experiencing.

18 And so when you are experiencing

19 less than normal performance, with the cost of

20 ingredients and all, it really cuts into your

21 ability to pay down the original investment on

22 the bird.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Thank you Mr.

2 Gaiman.

3 MR. GAIMAN: Thank you.

4 CHAIR STONE: Randy Mitchell to

5 the podium and Paige Tomaselli on deck.

6 DR. MITCHELL: Good afternoon --

7 or good morning, I guess, still. Okay, I

8 don't want to be beeped at.

9 Okay, thank you. May name is Dr.

10 Randy Mitchell and I am speaking to the Board

11 today, representing Coleman Natural Foods.

12 And I believe I am probably one of lone

13 broiler guys here speaking specifically

14 towards organic broilers.

15 I am a poultry nutritionist and in

16 this capacity, responsible for the nutrition

17 program for over a hundred farms, the majority

18 of which are family-owned and operated that

19 produce organic broilers for Coleman in three

20 different regions across the U.S.

21 I oversee the development of food

22 rations to ensure they promote optimal bird
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1 health and welfare at the farm level.

2 My comments today are concerning

3 the addition of synthetic methionine into

4 organic broiler diets. Methionine is the

5 first limiting amino acid for chickens and it

6 is vital for proper development of the animal,

7 as we have heard several speakers talk about

8 earlier.

9 Prior to the use of synthetic

10 methionine, poultry diets were very high in

11 crude protein. And in order to meet that

12 requirement, they contained a lot of things

13 that we don't use today, like animal

14 byproducts, meat scraps, feather meal, those

15 things that are just not allowed in organic

16 broiler production today.

17 To date, no natural substitute for

18 synthetic methionine has been developed. In

19 October of 2012, new restrictions on

20 methionine addition reduced the amount allowed

21 in broiler chicken feeds by 60 percent and in

22 layers and other poultry species by 50
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1 percent.

2 Layers and broilers were grouped

3 together, despite the fact that layers spend

4 their productive lives as adults when

5 methionine requirements are lower, whereas,

6 broilers are juveniles, when these

7 requirements are much higher.

8 The National Research Council or

9 NRC for short, publishes guidelines on the

10 dietary requirements for many different types

11 of animals. These guidelines are

12 internationally recognized by scientists as a

13 base for nutritional requirements. In the

14 1994 NRC publication for poultry, the minimum

15 requirement for methionine for a broiler

16 chicken from hatching to three weeks' of age

17 was listed as 0.50 percent of the ration. The

18 requirement for crude protein for this same

19 time period was listed as 23 percent.

20 I should also mention, point out

21 that these requirements were not derived from

22 modern fast-growing broilers. Most of this
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1 data -- the NRC was published 20 years' ago

2 and most of that data was gathered, probably

3 wasn't changed with 1984 NRC and that data was

4 probably gathered 30 to 50 years ago.

5 So, a starter diet containing

6 typical ingredients available for organic

7 production that is formulated to meet NRC

8 minimum requirements for methionine and only

9 containing the two pounds per ton level will

10 contain almost 27 percent crude protein from

11 the 23 -- higher than the 23 percent actual

12 requirement. This extra nitrogen from these

13 high protein diets places a heavy metabolic

14 burden on the animal at a time when other

15 stresses such as vaccinations are also

16 occurring. All of this extra nitrogen is

17 excreted into the feces, creating a much more

18 nitrogen-laden litter.

19 The farmers that raise organic

20 boilers have noticed similar negative effects

21 of the higher protein diets when these new

22 restrictions were put into place. These
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1 included higher ammonia levels in the barns

2 there in brooding, wet litter, more foot pad

3 lesions and higher incidences of the disease

4 necrotic enteritis, which is frequently fatal.

5 In fact, our farmers saw an 18 percent

6 increase in mortality during the first year

7 following the new methionine restrictions.

8 These problems are a direct result of the

9 extra nitrogen in the feed required to supply

10 methionine.

11 We, at Coleman Natural Foods, have

12 a deep commitment to the welfare of the

13 animals that are entrusted to our care. That

14 is why we would like the committee to consider

15 two changes in the organic standards related

16 to methionine. One would be to specifically

17 for broilers, two and a half pounds per ton,

18 to recognize the requirement differences from

19 other poultry species. This would be a 50

20 percent reduction in the finding from the

21 previous standard and would be consistent with

22 the other poultry species.
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1 In addition, I find it interesting

2 that three pounds of methionine is allowed for

3 turkeys, a 50 percent higher rate than

4 broilers when the NRC requirement for

5 methionine during breeding is only ten percent

6 higher.

7 Secondly, is to allow nutritionist

8 to adjust the levels of methionine to an

9 average amount over the lifetime of the animal

10 to take into account the high requirement in

11 the first few weeks of life.

12 Coleman Natural Foods, through the

13 Methionine Task Force, is committed to

14 continuing research in the areas of natural

15 methionine sources to less dependence on

16 synthetic sources. However, in the interim,

17 the change is to two and a half pound

18 inclusion for broilers and a lifetime average

19 use for all poultry species would have a

20 dramatic effect to improve the health and

21 welfare of the animals. So, I respectfully

22 ask the NOSB to consider them. Thank you and
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1 I would be glad to answer any questions.

2 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. I have a

3 question. We talked about added synthetic

4 methionine. How many pounds of methionine are

5 in a typical corn-soy ration by itself?

6 DR. MITCHELL: Okay, a typical

7 corn-soy ration, well if you look at total,

8 you are probably talking about 0.03 percent.

9 I am just going to -- about that. Probably

10 about a third of the actual or a little over

11 half of the actual requirement, probably 60

12 percent of the actual requirement.

13 CHAIR STONE: And if you did the

14 math of what the average should be for a

15 broiler, a seven- or eight-week broiler, we

16 are discussing two to two and a half. What

17 does NRC -- what is the calculated average

18 that the bird would require?

19 DR. MITCHELL: As far as over the

20 lifetime of the animal?

21 CHAIR STONE: Yes.

22 DR. MITCHELL: The calculated
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1 average would probably be in the 0.42 to 0.44.

2 And one of the reasons that might be a little

3 bit difficult is because of course during the

4 first three weeks' of life, the animal is not

5 eating a whole lot of feed. Whereas, in the

6 last several weeks, they are eating a lot of

7 feed requirement.

8 So, I want to say probably 0.43,

9 0.44 something like that would be the average

10 requirement that would be required.

11 CHAIR STONE: So how many pounds

12 of synthetic methionine would be the average

13 you would need to add to hit that optimum

14 level? We are saying two and a half. But is

15 it two and a half or 2.6.

16 DR. MITCHELL: Right. Right. So,

17 what two and a half would do for us is it

18 would allow us to meet that level and reduce

19 our overall protein level down closer to that

20 23 percent. And that is really important to

21 counteract the litter problems that we have,

22 the enteritis, the necrotic enteritis is
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1 really our main health issue, unlike the

2 laying hen guys where feather pecking is more

3 of a major concern.

4 CHAIR STONE: Okay, great. Thank

5 you very much. Thank you for being here.

6 DR. MITCHELL: Okay.

7 CHAIR STONE: I lost my place.

8 Paige Tomaselli to the podium and Ashley

9 Swaffer on deck.

10 MS. TOMASELLI: Good morning. My

11 name is Paige Tomaselli and I am a senior

12 attorney at the public interest organization

13 Center for Food Safety. Last week, Center for

14 Food Safety released a paper analyzing USDA's

15 decision to delay animal welfare regulations.

16 The paper concludes that USDA is making a

17 mistake since animal welfare is a clear

18 priority for the organic community. When USDA

19 announced its intention to stall animal

20 welfare regulations, it pointed to an economic

21 impact assessment that found the impact on the

22 largest organic egg producers. Those housing
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1 more than 100,000 birds would be quote,

2 unquote, substantial. Our analysis reveals,

3 however, that the vast majority of egg and

4 poultry operations would not be financially

5 impacted by increased animal welfare

6 standards.

7 We conclude that by ignoring

8 expectations and ethics inherent in organic

9 purchasing habits, USDA's inaction could

10 threaten the overall success of the organic

11 brand.

12 Center for Food Safety has

13 consistently promoted strong animal welfare

14 standards because we believe they are critical

15 to the organic label. As our paper shows,

16 organic consumers pay a premium for organic

17 foods and with that, comes certain

18 expectations. For those that purchase organic

19 products, cruel and unnatural treatment is not

20 consistent with the term organic. In fact, in

21 September 2013, Center for Food Safety has

22 surveyed its members. The vast majority of
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1 CFS members indicated that animal welfare was

2 one of the top reasons they purchased organic

3 poultry and eggs.

4 People also choose higher welfare

5 animal products because they want healthier

6 food. The evidence is mounting that even

7 minimal improvements in production systems

8 offering animals greater opportunities for

9 exercise, behavioral expression and naturally

10 suited diets, such as those contained in

11 NOSB's recommendations can drastically improve

12 animal welfare and the nutritional quality of

13 animal products. USDA ignored these and other

14 non-economic considerations in the its

15 decision to stall the regulations.

16 NOSB's animal welfare

17 recommendations are minimal. CFS believes

18 that stricter standards are surely warranted

19 under the organic label. NOSB's

20 recommendations are, however, a necessary next

21 step. That the largest poultry operations may

22 not be able to comply raises serious doubts
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1 about these operations' ability to boast the

2 organic label.

3 Directly related to animal welfare

4 is methionine. CFS is opposed to the

5 Livestock Committee's methionine proposal. We

6 have consistently urged USDA to put forward a

7 research plan, to aid organic farmers and

8 removing synthetic methionine from organic

9 poultry production. To date, USDA has not

10 done so. Organic poultry operations cannot

11 continue to use synthetic methionine in their

12 organic operations. Instead, innovative

13 alternatives such as insects like Black

14 Soldier fly, whey, increased access to pasture

15 and other natural sources of methionine must

16 take the place of synthetic methionine.

17 Streptomycin in organic orchards

18 should not be extended because it is

19 incompatible with organic systems and because

20 it poses unnecessary threats to human health.

21 The risk of using streptomycin are even

22 clearer than those from using tetracycline,
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1 which the NOSB voted allow to Sunset at its

2 April 2013 meeting. Organic agriculture

3 should prohibit the use of antibiotics once

4 and for all to preserve the efficacy of these

5 essential human drugs.

6 CFS also strongly disagrees with

7 the NOP edict to remove all discussions about

8 NOSB members' potential conflicts of interest

9 out of public view and behind closed doors.

10 This undermines the purpose of requiring

11 conflict of interest disclosures in the first

12 place, which is to ensure public

13 accountability and checks and balances in NOSB

14 decision-making.

15 CFS urges the NOSB to call upon

16 the NOP to take a more proactive role in

17 advocating that USDA develop mandatory GE

18 contamination prevention measures by patent

19 holders and GE technology users that are

20 protective of organic agriculture.

21 On behalf of organic community, we

22 further urge you to directly communicate with
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1 Secretary Vilsack, the organic community's

2 dissatisfaction with his coexistence policy,

3 which serves to perpetuate GE contamination

4 and threaten organic integrity.

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

7 Zea?

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. You

9 crammed a lot in there.

10 MS. TOMASELLI: I only had four

11 minutes. Sorry about the speed talking.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, my

13 question is concerning the methionine

14 recommendation as it relates to animal

15 welfare. And you know we are hearing from

16 people that without modifying the

17 recommendation that is now in effect, that we

18 are contributing to animal cruelty and not

19 taking into consideration animal welfare over

20 the life of the flock, by changing from the

21 life of the flock from what it is now. And

22 yet we also heard that the alternatives,
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1 including the Black Soldier bugs are not

2 registered for them to use.

3 So, when you say you can't support

4 the change, I don't see how we cannot vote for

5 it unless we are affecting animal welfare.

6 So, I would like to hear your perspective on

7 that.

8 MS. TOMASELLI: Well, I think one

9 thing that I think is really clear is that if

10 the NOSB puts a hard Sunset in place, that the

11 market will adjust and really promote some of

12 these other alternatives and allow for

13 research and create the supply because there

14 will be a demand for it. So, I do think that

15 adding a conclusive hard Sunset deadline will

16 promote the kind of research that is necessary

17 in this area. And I feel that it is up to

18 USDA and the industry to promote that research

19 at as fast of a pace as is possible.

20 As far as the recommendation that

21 is on the table, the proposal that is on the

22 table, I have heard both sides of the story.
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1 I think our comments speak to our position on

2 it and so I can't really speak to more of that

3 now. But I do feel that a hard Sunset

4 deadline is appropriate here. Methionine has

5 been, synthetic methionine has been used for

6 13 years and it is going to be used for the

7 next four or five years. And I think that is

8 long enough for the industry to come up with

9 an alternative.

10 Yes?

11 CHAIR STONE: Jennifer.

12 MS. TOMASELLI: Sorry.

13 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you for your

14 presentation.

15 MS. TOMASELLI: You're welcome.

16 MEMBER TAYLOR: Can you tell me if

17 there are any additional issues maybe if you

18 look at farmer selection of maybe a fast19 growing poultry broiler versus a slower

20 growing one in relation to methionine

21 dependency?

22 MS. TOMASELLI: Yes, there are
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1 definitely issues. The research has shown

2 that the slowing growing broilers require less

3 synthetic inputs of methionine. I also think

4 that the poultry industry has sped up and the

5 consumer demand for poultry is great. And so

6 when you have that kind of consumer demand,

7 you have the poultry industry trying to rush

8 to meet that demand, although I don't

9 necessarily agree that is the proper way to go

10 about producing poultry. I think if you take

11 the natural lifespan of organic poultry into

12 consideration and the way that an animal is

13 supposed to grow, the conditions are more

14 naturally suited and you will have to require

15 less synthetic inputs.

16 CHAIR STONE: Wendy?

17 MEMBER FULWIDER: What do you

18 think is the most promising alternative?

19 MS. TOMASELLI: What do I think is

20 the most promising alternative? In this last

21 round of comments, we did a lot of research on

22 insects, including Black Soldier flies. I
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1 realize there is some regulatory hurdles. But

2 what we think three to five years is exactly

3 the amount of time where methionine could

4 Sunset for good and so I think the FDA would

5 hear that methionine is sunsetting and fast

6 track any alternative through the animal feed

7 process as necessary. So, I do think that

8 insects are a viable alternative. I also

9 think because they are part of a system and

10 they are created on compost, poultry compost,

11 that that feeds into the system's approach of

12 the organic model and it would be a holistic

13 way to approach the situation.

14 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Paige.

15 MS. TOMASELLI: Yes.

16 CHAIR STONE: Ashley Swaffer. I

17 hope I got that right. I apologize. And

18 David Will on deck.

19 MS. SWAFFER: Hi. My name is

20 Ashley Swaffer and I am the President of the

21 Organic Egg Farmers of America. The Organic

22 Egg Farmers of America represent over 45
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1 member companies and seven million organic

2 laying hens. We appreciate the opportunity to

3 comment on the issue of methionine in organic

4 layer chicken diets. We wish to register our

5 support for the initial petition and

6 subsequent Livestock Committee recommendation

7 to change the amount of DL-methionine from two

8 pounds maximum to two pounds average over the

9 life of the bird.

10 Our membership has seen numerous

11 issues related to inadequate amount of

12 methionine in current diets. Methionine is a

13 limiting amino acid and by not feeding in

14 proper quantities, it limits all other amino

15 acids to the level in the diet.

16 The issues that our members are

17 seeing is feather pulling, cannibalism,

18 increased mortality, feather eating, and high

19 ammonia levels in barns. We are seeing these

20 issues across all types of production styles

21 and flock sizes, from flocks as small as 850

22 hens to larger flocks. And we are seeing
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1 these issues on farms from minimal outdoor

2 access to pasture-based systems.

3 We do have members that are trying

4 alternative products to methionine but those

5 products are not commercially available to

6 feed all the organic laying hens. The key

7 when exploring the alternative products is

8 that we need sufficient quantities to be able

9 to support the nine million in growing organic

10 laying hen population.

11 We believe that making this

12 technical fix from allowing two pounds maximum

13 to two pounds average over the life of the

14 bird will lead to better welfare conditions,

15 helping the consumer expectations for

16 responsible organic husbandry. We are proud

17 to come together as organic egg producers to

18 share information on best practices and are

19 united in our recommendation. Many of our

20 members are here today to also give their

21 personal comments.

22 Thank you. Any questions?
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1 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Jay.

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. Do

3 you see any scenario in which we would no

4 longer need synthetic methionine? If so, what

5 does that scenario look like? And if not, why

6 not?

7 MS. SWAFFER: I'm not 100 percent

8 as versed as the following presenter behind

9 me. David Will represent the Methionine Task

10 Force and I think that question would be

11 better suited for him.

12 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you.

13 Thank you for being here as well.

14 (Applause.)

15 CHAIR STONE: David Will to the

16 podium and John Brunquell on deck.

17 MR. WILL: Hi. I'm going to start

18 before the clock so I have an extra second.

19 I want that mug.

20 Anyhow, my name is David Will and

21 I am here representing members of the

22 Methionine Task Force. We are a group that
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1 has banded together and self-funded. We

2 represent from very small to very large

3 producers, both broiler and layer. We

4 anticipate that we represent about 85 percent

5 of the entire layer production in the United

6 States. In addition, we represent, as I was

7 told, a majority of the broilers.

8 What I wanted to talk about is

9 that we do support the change that the

10 Livestock Committee passed of changing it from

11 a hard cap to an average. I think the

12 majority of us in this room are parents. And

13 the one thing that we wanted to point out is

14 that none of us feed an infant, like we feed

15 a child, like we feed an adult, like we feed

16 a senior. And the hard cap really forced us

17 into doing that.

18 Those of us who don't have

19 children, if you walk the pet food aisle, you

20 see numerous foods and rations that are

21 designed for young dogs to old dogs. So, it

22 seems like all animals get that opportunity
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1 and we really need to change that average to

2 an average so that we can adjust for the age

3 of our birds.

4 We have had numerous issues

5 reported to us from our membership on the

6 methionine and perhaps the most interesting

7 thing we got was we were reported by several

8 certifiers that when they had walked flocks

9 one year to the next, the increase in the

10 nervousness in the flocks that they had seen

11 was quite interesting to them. And I know

12 those comments were passed and some written

13 and also to the Livestock Committee.

14 We also saw a tremendous amount of

15 increase in feather pecking and eating of

16 feathers. And we also had, especially with

17 this year being as cold a winter as we had, we

18 had quite a bit of problems reported to us of

19 ammonia levels in barns due to the overfeeding

20 of protein.

21 When we took out the extra

22 methionine, what we put in was soybean meal
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1 and corn and it really did change the protein

2 levels, and therefore, changed the manure,

3 which made the houses have much tougher air

4 quality issues for them.

5 Also, just being fair to all of

6 our members, we would like to support that the

7 broilers, if you are going to take the 50

8 percent cut across the board since 2012 step9 down, we would like to do the math correctly

10 and say that five is two and a half and

11 support the broiler average going to there.

12 The Methionine Task Force is

13 committed to doing future work. We funded a

14 study to North Carolina that listed and did

15 research on all of the possible methionine

16 sources out there. We are now, once they are

17 done with their broiler study, or their

18 survivability of layer studies, we are going

19 to go back to them and ask them to take the

20 top five or seven and do some work on those,

21 to find out if they are viable and if so, how

22 available. And we do guarantee that we will
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1 come back and do reports on that and make that

2 information available to all of our members.

3 And just quickly, somebody had

4 asked about sunflower meal. We actually feed

5 one flock, one entire flock sunflower meal for

6 a different ration that we use and it is the

7 most difficult ration to get. We constantly

8 are having trouble sourcing that product. So,

9 I just wanted you to know that.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, David.

11 MR. WILL: Three seconds.

12 CHAIR STONE: Jay, did that get to

13 your question or do you want to follow-up?

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Do you feel that

15 we will ever get off of the methionine

16 dependency? If not, why not? And if so, how

17 would we do that and how would you recommend

18 the Board move toward that transition?

19 MR. WILL: I don't know that we

20 are very going to get off the dependency.

21 Part of it is you have to understand

22 methionine is one of the most expensive
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1 ingredients that we add to our ration. We

2 would all love to look for a source. But if

3 we take up the combined dollars that we spend

4 on methionine nationally between broilers and

5 organic, we estimate that at about $3 million

6 and that is a tough thing.

7 In addition, with your own survey

8 that you guys presented in Savannah, consumer

9 push back on leak byproducts which was being

10 used, which was the standard ration in the

11 1940s was overwhelmingly rejected by

12 consumers. I can't imagine standing in front

13 of a grocery and saying now with more bug

14 larvae than ever that we are going to get a

15 huge following.

16 Organic, especially on eggs, has

17 really grown out of our core markets. You

18 know, it is hard to walk into a supermarket

19 now and not find organic eggs and we have

20 really changed the consumer that we are going

21 for. There are certain consumers in this

22 marketplace that are absolutely in love with
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1 organic and will buy it no matter what. But

2 as they found them in other retailers, they

3 are buying them for more whim than the message

4 that they are sending. And I think that

5 consumer we would lose very quickly.

6 CHAIR STONE: Zea.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thanks, David,

8 for your comments.

9 In spite of your aspersion to bug

10 larvae, which chickens who peck on the ground,

11 that is what they are mostly eating, did the

12 North Carolina study indicate that the Black

13 Soldier bugs were one or any other insect

14 sources were a good source of methionine? And

15 what is your perception of how viable that is

16 in the future as an alternative?

17 MR. WILL: I think it is viable.

18 The survey did find a couple different

19 interesting bugs. I don't specifically

20 remember what it said about the Black Soldier

21 fly but what I do remember is it said that

22 silk worms were actually quite high in
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1 methionine. And so our own company has taken

2 that and realized that silk worms eat a

3 single-source product, which is mulberry

4 leaves. And we have actually tested mulberry

5 leaves and we found that they actually do have

6 some methionine in them. The problem is,

7 number one, they are not commercially

8 available, and number two, the process of

9 getting them into the feed, the amount of

10 tonnage that you would have to put in is

11 crazy.

12 And you have to remember something

13 that was said earlier by Ernie is we have a

14 ration we have to balance against. So, it is

15 not only just methionine, it is protein. It

16 is energy. And if we make minor subtle

17 changes by adding even alfalfa because there

18 is no energy in that, it throws everything

19 else off and it just kind of staggers all

20 throughout.

21 I think there is options. One of

22 the good ones that we also identified was
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1 Brazil nuts. That is going to be on the top

2 of our testing. But again, it is commercial

3 availability.

4 I think that we stand a better

5 chance of finding something that may be non6 synthetic than organic as a replacement. And

7 that may be something we have to come back to

8 you with. But I do also tell you that all of

9 the members of the Task Force, we still have

10 a little bit of money in the bank and we are

11 going to bankroll the next study with this.

12 And we are going to find and feed a long-term

13 trial to try to find some options.

14 CHAIR STONE: Jennifer?

15 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you for your

16 presentation. Can you tell me if you are

17 aware of earthworms being used as a potential

18 source for methionine and how available is

19 that source?

20 MR. WILL: Again, it is a matter

21 of how many you have to have. Even on a small

22 flock of 850 birds, that amount of protein
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1 that you would have to have available for them

2 is very tough. And I don't remember anything

3 specifically out of the report either that

4 listed the methionine content.

5 We did have a professor of

6 entomology at the University of California at

7 Riverside, right by our offices, Brad Mullens.

8 He is actually going through the report right

9 now to pick out which insects he thinks are

10 favorable and which would least garner FDA

11 disapproval. So, we are looking at some

12 options.

13 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, David.

14 Thank you for your work on the Task Force as

15 well.

16 MR. WILL: No problem. Thank you.

17 CHAIR STONE: One more? Nick, go

18 ahead.

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: This is a

20 question you don't necessarily need to answer

21 right now but perhaps take back to the Task

22 Force.
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1 What is it that we on the NOSB

2 could do to provide an acceptable incentive

3 for the industry to move away from synthetic

4 methionine? And as I said, if you have

5 immediate reaction, that's fine but is there

6 a way to provide a positive incentive that

7 would work for everyone?

8 MR. WILL: Cash.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. WILL: I think the first

11 message you sent of the step-down from the

12 five pounds, four pounds, to the two and a

13 half and two, and three for turkeys, broilers

14 -- turkeys and ducks was a very clear message

15 for us. And it is not a matter of inactivity,

16 it is a matter of really trying to find an

17 option that, number one, is first commercially

18 available, and second is acceptable. And

19 third and most important, promotes animal

20 welfare within the confines that we have to be

21 organic.

22 And I think that we are working
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1 for that and I think you will see more updates

2 as the years go forward of some research that

3 we are doing. But you have sent a pretty

4 clear message and we have heard you.

5 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, David.

6 MR. WILL: Thank you.

7 CHAIR STONE: And thanks for your

8 work with the Task Force.

9 (Applause.)

10 CHAIR STONE: John Brunquell to

11 the podium and Amy Simpson on deck.

12 MR. BRUNQUELL: Good morning.

13 Thank you for the opportunity to present

14 information. What I am going to speak to is

15 methionine but I am going to try and have a

16 couple pictures be worth a whole lot of words.

17 By way of background, I am the

18 President of Egg Innovations. Egg Innovations

19 represents 40 small organic farmers throughout

20 the Midwest. We have production from north21 central Wisconsin down to western Ohio and all

22 points in-between.
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1 My scientific background is I have

2 a master's degree in poultry science. I am

3 also a member of the Farmer Advisory Council

4 of the Organic Trade Association. I have also

5 been a direct producer, growing up on an egg

6 farm, collecting eggs since I was three years

7 old. I have been a producer for over 30

8 years.

9 What I want to show you next are

10 two simple pictures. You are going to see two

11 pictures of flocks, both on two square feet

12 outside, the NOSB recommendations of land.

13 So, what we wanted to do is we wanted to take

14 away a lot of the noise about speculation.

15 What if they were outside, would they get more

16 methionine compared to being inside?

17 So, here is a flock of non-organic

18 birds on three pounds of methionine, raised --

19 you can see the feathering, the outside

20 access. And this is two square feet per bird

21 outside on this facility. And this is two

22 pounds.
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1 This is an organic flock, same

2 age, same physical setup. All of our barns

3 are identical. They are all the same length,

4 same width, same outside access. And we

5 wanted to explore that answer. You can see

6 the feathering is significantly less.

7 Although we are huge advocates for birds going

8 outside on the ground and we did see feather

9 regrowth in summer, as the birds had an

10 opportunity, but clearly, methionine is an

11 animal welfare issue. And we saw it very

12 direct.

13 And we actually did feather scores

14 and we worked with Dr. Jacquie Jacob out of

15 the University of Kentucky and we quantified

16 this data.

17 The other issue I want to show you

18 is an issue that I haven't seen since I was a

19 child. It is called bumblefoot. It very

20 simply means that when a bird cuts its foot

21 open for any of a variety of reasons, say

22 another bird steps on its foot, if it is in a
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1 high-ammonia environment, it has an

2 opportunity to get infected. For the first

3 time in my career, I saw that in our organic

4 flocks last winter.

5 This is an animal welfare issue.

6 It is not about money. I am a huge advocate

7 for reducing methionine. I appreciate the

8 question you have been asking all the time,

9 what is the pathway. We are passionate about

10 getting there also. We actually do believe we

11 will get there. I don't know if it is in four

12 years but we will get there, as we figure out

13 alternatives.

14 But I care about the birds that I

15 take care of and this is the environment I am

16 in today. As such, our opinion is we support

17 the request to allow the methionine usage

18 being raised to an average instead of a cap.

19 If you have any questions, I would

20 be glad to answer them.

21 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, John.

22 And those pictures were valuable. Thank you
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1 for bringing them.

2 (Applause.)

3 CHAIR STONE: Amy Simpson to the

4 podium and Jim Winter on deck.

5 MS. SIMPSON: Good morning. I am

6 Amy Simpson, Policy Director and Staff

7 Attorney for Beyond Pesticides. But

8 personally, I am also a mom, an organic

9 community garden president and organic

10 consumer.

11 I realize that each one of you who

12 sits on this Board have many different roles

13 and many different responsibilities. Despite

14 these differences, however, there are certain

15 responsibilities and duties that unify all of

16 you and do not differ. Indeed, cannot differ.

17 These are the duties set forth in the very law

18 that created the National Organic Standards

19 Board, National Organic Program and Organic

20 Production Standards. Given recent

21 reinterpretations of these duties, and I would

22 argue misinterpretations concerning many, I
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1 feel it is my duty in all of my roles to

2 clarify what the founding law describes as the

3 unequivocal mandatory responsibilities of the

4 Board and the USDA in relationship to the

5 Board.

6 I would like to emphasize the

7 following duties go beyond those established

8 under FACA. And though USDA would have you

9 think that you are nothing special, it is in

10 accordance with FACA to create and support a

11 Board with broader, mandatory duties. The

12 NOSB is unique because of the extent of these

13 broader duties and powers vested in it by the

14 Act.

15 First, the NOSB must provide

16 recommendations to the Secretary on the

17 implementation of OFPA as a whole. The

18 statute does not state that this duty is at

19 the request or discretion of the Secretary.

20 The NOSB must develop the proposed National

21 List and proposed amendments. And this

22 development must follow the specific statutory
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1 standards and procedures outlined in the

2 statute. This responsibility is not limited

3 to the creation of the first National List but

4 also the continuing changes to that list. The

5 NOSB must follow statutory requirements in

6 establishing the proposed National List and

7 its amendments. NOSB evaluations of

8 substances considered for inclusion on the

9 National List must contemplate several

10 criteria, such as effects on human health and

11 alternatives. These criteria are the only

12 criteria provided for in the Act for

13 evaluating National List materials. None of

14 the evaluation criteria include or reference

15 economic impacts. The NOSB must establish

16 National List petition procedures. It is the

17 Board, not the USDA that is tasked with

18 establishing these procedures.

19 The NOSB must perform a host of

20 specific functions beyond National List

21 development and OFPA implementation. And

22 finally, NOSB must review existing National
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1 List materials every five years. If the Board

2 fails to conduct this review, the material

3 would no longer be valid on the National List.

4 Now, the Secretary and NOP also

5 have a number of important mandatory duties in

6 relation to the NOSB. First and foremost, the

7 NOSB must exist. Unlike many FACA boards, the

8 NOSB is not a board established at the

9 Agency's discretion or with a finite life

10 term. The Secretary must consult with the

11 NOSB on developing not only the National List

12 but also the entire National Organic Program.

13 This is a general provision, not a National

14 List-specific provision.

15 The Secretary must base the

16 National List on the NOSB proposed National

17 List or amendments. And there is an absolute

18 bar against listing synthetics not on the

19 NOSB's list. This emphasizes that a proposed

20 list from the NOSB is not mere advice.

21 And finally, every five years, the

22 Secretary must determine whether to renew a
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1 National List material. Should the Secretary

2 fail to affirmatively renew and note that the

3 only option in the language of the Sunset

4 provision is to renew, then the material would

5 be invalid on the National List.

6 Again, I recognize there are a lot

7 of differing roles, interests on the NOSB.

8 These differences, however, do not change the

9 shared fundamental duties and collaborative

10 intent established in the law that you all

11 must uphold, regardless of regulatory

12 dysfunction. Thank you.

13 (Applause.)

14 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Amy.

15 Questions? Thank you, very much.

16 MS. SIMPSON: You're welcome.

17 CHAIR STONE: Jim Winter to the

18 podium and Dan Giacomini on deck.

19 MR. WINTER: First of all, good

20 afternoon and thank you for the opportunity to

21 speak to you this afternoon. My name is Jim

22 Winter. I manage the Agri Business for Ecolab
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1 of North America. I am also past president of

2 the National Mastitis Council. And I just

3 want to thank you for the time you spend

4 volunteering your time. I spent ten years on

5 the National Mastitis Board in a similar

6 volunteer role. So, I understand the time it

7 takes.

8 The reason I am here today is to

9 support the approval of the use of acidified

10 sodium chlorite as an active in teat dips used

11 in organic livestock production. Currently,

12 pre- and post-milking, teat dipping with an

13 efficacious teat dip are two of the most

14 important things you can do on a dairy farm to

15 improve milk quality and reduce mastitis.

16 Today, organic producers are

17 limited to using teat dips that contain a

18 select few actives. Each of these actives has

19 weaknesses that can impact their suitability

20 for use on an organic dairy farm.

21 In full disclosure, Ecolab

22 produces teat dips with many of the actives
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1 that you approve and we sell to the organic

2 industry but we are all about trying to

3 provide the best new technology for our

4 customer base.

5 First of all, chlorhexidine, which

6 is on the list. Chlorhexidine does not have

7 broad spectrum kill and, in fact, there are

8 certain mastitis pathogens that can actually

9 grow in a chlorhexidine teat dip.

10 Furthermore, there was a paper

11 recently published by Middleton et al out of

12 Missouri that pointed out that chlorhexidine

13 has a long elimination half-life in milk, a

14 lack of human dietary exposure data to suggest

15 a food tolerance to food products and the FDA

16 has published zero tolerance for chlorhexidine

17 in uncooked eatable calf tissue. Yet, it is

18 one of the options.

19 Two, iodine. Iodine is the number

20 one teat dip -- number one active use in teat

21 dips in the U.S. for all dairies. However,

22 its use has declined in the past few years,
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1 due to the increased cost for iodine and the

2 increased concern for iodine residue in milk.

3 Furthermore, a more recent concern

4 is that the primary complexing agent that

5 brings the raw iodine into a teat dip so that

6 it becomes usable in a teat dip is something

7 called nonylphenol ethoxylate, which is called

8 NPE. NPE is a particular ingredient, a

9 surfactant that is on the watch list by EPA

10 and they are looking at the potential of

11 eliminating it. So, that is a concern with

12 iodine teat dips.

13 Hydrogen peroxide, a third product

14 on the list, is an excellent germicide, when

15 formulated correctly with an acid to reduce

16 the pH. However, this particular product is

17 heavily impacted, negatively impacted by

18 organic matter and also certain enzymes that

19 are found on skin tissue, which are also found

20 on the teat.

21 With that, I strongly believe that

22 acidified sodium chlorite, which generates
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1 chlorine dioxide germicide, that is a broad

2 spectrum oxidizing germicide that degrades

3 really into chloride and lactic acid, which

4 are both indigenous to milk, the same

5 chemistry is currently by the NOP for use of

6 an antimicrobial no-rinse food treatment.

7 Chlorine dioxide is not chlorine.

8 A lot of people think that it acts like

9 chlorine. It is not chlorine. Therefore, it

10 does not generate the harmful halogenated

11 organics which chlorine can produce. That is

12 why chlorine dioxide is the preferred water

13 treatment chemistry in the industry.

14 Furthermore, because acidified

15 sodium chlorite is so broad spectrum, it is a

16 lot more efficacious on a dairy farm than a

17 chlorhexidine-based dip without the residue

18 concern.

19 As organic dairymen work to become

20 more sustainable, they are moving more to

21 composted bedding where chloroform bacteria

22 can be prevalent. They need a broad spectrum
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1 teat dip that is effective and performs when

2 challenged with heavy organic matter.

3 Acidified sodium chlorite fits the

4 bill and data is available showing significant

5 less new E. coli intramammary infections, when

6 compared to iodine teat dips.

7 I appreciate very much your time

8 and I hope that you consider acidified sodium

9 chlorite as an active in organic teat dips.

10 Thank you.

11 CHAIR STONE: I'm looking to the

12 dairy over here. Francis.

13 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you. I am a

14 dairy farmer but I have not used NaCLO but I

15 have heard people who have used it, actually

16 not many, but they say when you mix the acid

17 with the chloride that there is a gas

18 produced, chlorine dioxide. Are you familiar

19 with that?

20 MR. WINTER: Yes. Essentially

21 what happens, you use typically on the

22 majority of the acidified sodium chlorite teat
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1 dips which we produce and other of our

2 competitors produce, you use lactic acid --

3 CHAIR STONE: Stay on the

4 microphone, please.

5 MR. WINTER: Oh, excuse me. You

6 mix lactic acid with sodium chlorite. That

7 produces chlorous acid, which will generate

8 chlorine dioxide. The chlorine dioxide will

9 give you a slight odor of chlorine like you

10 would smell chlorine because the chloride

11 dioxide is a gaseous state.

12 MEMBER THICKE: Isn't it also a

13 toxic material when you breathe in? I mean,

14 actually the TR is not very good in this

15 situation. I have been doing some more

16 research. It is an eye irritant and a lung

17 irritant.

18 MR. WINTER: Yes, you are correct

19 that TR is not real well when it comes to

20 that. There are specific guidelines as parts

21 per million of the ClO2 gas that can be

22 breathed in. The use of it in teat dips, we
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1 don't even approach the parts per million that

2 would create a problem.

3 The biggest issue is when you use

4 a very strong acid, like a sulfuric acid and

5 you mix that with a sodium chlorite. Then,

6 you will get a heavy blow off of chlorine

7 dioxide. And that is where the concern is.

8 When you are using what we call a

9 protic acid or a mild acid like lactic acid,

10 citric acid and you mix it with sodium

11 chlorite, you do not get anywhere near the

12 parts per million that are a concern to the

13 industry.

14 MEMBER THICKE: But people have

15 reported they can smell that gas coming out

16 when they mix that.

17 MR. WINTER: Well, they will get

18 some odor, just like you will get odor if you

19 used an iodine teat dip.

20 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you.

21 MR. WINTER: Yes.

22 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank
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1 you very much for being here.

2 MR. WINTER: Sure.

3 CHAIR STONE: Dan Giocomini to the

4 podium and Ann Mosness on deck.

5 And folks, just one second here.

6 We are about 20, 25 minutes behind. That is

7 going to put us closer to 12:45 or even later,

8 breaking for lunch. Just so you know that,

9 and the audience as well.

10 Dan.

11 MR. GIOCOMINI: Thank you. My

12 name is Dan Giocomini. I work in animal

13 nutrition, dairy management, and organic

14 consulting. I am a former member of the NOSB,

15 having served on the Livestock Subcommittee,

16 Chairperson of the Materials Committee, and

17 Board Chairman.

18 In a day and a half of this

19 meeting, I could talk about a lot of things

20 but I am here today to encourage the Livestock

21 Committee to reconsider their vote on the

22 acidified sodium chlorite and I support its
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1 listing as a teat dip on 603.

2 I argue that there is producer

3 demand for the substance. Numerous times over

4 the years as a consultant, I have seen where

5 this substance was the preferred teat dip of

6 dairy farms, prior to conversion to organic

7 and they would love to have this tool

8 available again.

9 In two weeks of working on this

10 project, I have a petition of 35 names,

11 including producers from six states, as well

12 as processors, dairy industry workers,

13 veterinarians, including one of the top

14 organic vets in the U.S. and consumers.

15 Additionally, in the fall, public

16 comment on regulations.gov, Dr. Cindy Daley,

17 Professor and Managing Supervisor for the

18 Certified Organic Dairy at Chico State

19 University, supported this substance.

20 I was on the Board when ASC was

21 added to 605 for handling. It easily met the

22 criteria. It passed 12 to 2, largely because
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1 of its effectiveness and the end products of

2 water, citric acid, and salt entering the

3 environment. It is worth noting that ASC is

4 not included in the chlorine materials listing

5 on 605. This technology is totally different.

6 I admit that if it were up to the

7 current TR, I would vote the same as the LC.

8 Sorry about that. I commend the LC for the

9 great job they did on getting most of the

10 basic information correct. You referenced the

11 2009 recommendation. However, the TR is

12 likely the source from which the listing of

13 organically allowed teat dips in the

14 recommendation is not correct.

15 Overall, the TR stinks. It is too

16 long and makes up for it by being confusing

17 and misleading. I wish I had the time to go

18 through all the problems that I see with the

19 TR. The TR poorly describes the final

20 products from the substance entering the

21 environment, being water or leak acid and

22 table salt. The TR refers to a 605 status in
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1 regard to a 603 substance, which is irrelevant

2 and confusing.

3 The lists provided in the TR are

4 confusing and easily misrepresented. The TR

5 ignores on-farm situational issues related to

6 this substance and allowed alternatives, such

7 as bedding, milking practices, and

8 effectiveness in breadth of kill and impact of

9 teat dip on effectiveness. It ignores full

10 environmental impact from contamination, both

11 as it occurs in the general environment and in

12 the milk supply. And in all these situations,

13 there are conditions where ASC is as good or

14 better than the best currently allowed

15 alternatives.

16 The impact on loss of efficacy of

17 the available options, as can happen regularly

18 on on-farm situations in a non-sanitary barn

19 condition is ignored. These impacts include

20 increasing levels of somatic cell count,

21 increasing mastitis, negative impact on animal

22 health, disease, and welfare, increased
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1 potential need for antibiotics and decrease in

2 the length of the animal's productive life.

3 Again, in many situations, ASC is

4 as good as or better than the best

5 alternatives available.

6 The alternative impact and the

7 status of teat dip in health is not discussed

8 in the TR and many conditions causing chapped

9 teats and irritated teat ends, ASC is, again,

10 as good or better than the alternatives

11 available.

12 Finally, available information

13 does not suggest that the commercial products

14 natural organic acids and homemade essential

15 oil mixtures are all equally effective, as

16 stated in the TR. Actually, as it states

17 later, there is no scientific literature that

18 supports that statement and it could easily be

19 said that nothing suggests equal

20 effectiveness, aside from anecdotal statements

21 and claims.

22 In many situations, ASC is not
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1 only a good alternative, it is the best

2 alternative. It is 21st century technology.

3 It is not your grandmother's bleach. If you

4 look at the evaluation criteria on this

5 substance and compare it with what is

6 available now, this substance is as good, if

7 not better than everything currently

8 available.

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Dan.

10 Calvin?

11 SECRETARY WALKER: Dan, thanks for

12 your comments. Could you repeat again for the

13 Livestock Committee one or two reasons why we

14 should reconsider their deliberations this

15 evening?

16 MR. GIOCOMINI: While you did an

17 excellent job at pulling a lot of the facts

18 that were available from the Handling

19 Committee recommendation and the 2009 TR,

20 there is a number of other dairy farm on-the21 farm, in-barn situations where the current

22 teat dip TR for livestock is just completely
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1 deficient. It should -- you either need to --

2 I ask you to reconsider it or pull it back.

3 And if there is no money to get a new TR, at

4 least somehow do the effort, do the work and

5 see what those options are.

6 CHAIR STONE: Wendy.

7 MEMBER FULWIDER: Will you be

8 sharing your petition?

9 MR. GIOCOMINI: I have it

10 available. I only have one copy but yes, I

11 have it available.

12 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you,

13 Dan.

14 MR. GIOCOMINI: Thank you.

15 CHAIR STONE: Ann Mosness to the

16 podium. Ann, correct me on the pronunciation

17 and Jim Pierce on deck.

18 MS. MOSNESS: Thank you. And yes,

19 that is correct.

20 Ann Mosness. I have commercially

21 fished for nearly 30 years in Alaska and

22 sometimes in Washington State. It was sort of
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1 an accidental occupation, since there were no

2 sons in the family. But that is pretty

3 typical farm families, too, is that if you

4 have a family business, you fall into it.

5 Now Alaska manages its fisheries

6 for sustainability. It is written into their

7 State Constitution. The only thing that

8 Alaska does is it is very inefficient in its

9 salmon harvest. The license holder has to be

10 onboard. Consequently, I fished until I was

11 eight months pregnant. I have fished on

12 crutches. I could not deal with a herniated

13 disc in my neck and so, in 2001, I was

14 actually flying to Minneapolis for a position

15 with the Institute for Agriculture and Trade

16 Policy and I got a call that morning that my

17 boat had just burned in Alaska. So, I did a

18 career change. I also received a Food and

19 Society Policy Fellowship.

20 So, I have spent many years

21 learning about farming and learning about the

22 similarities that the farm families have with
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1 fishing families. And I would like to share

2 with you a little bit more about fishing

3 because you want to make some decisions that

4 could almost be a nail in the coffin to my

5 businesses and to the families that harvest

6 our wild seafoods.

7 Because you're looking at marine

8 aquaculture and possibly certifying it as

9 organic. That would be like certifying hog

10 farms. The major problem with marine

11 aquaculture is that nothing is contained. The

12 pollution, the pathogens, the parasites, they

13 flush right from the cages. These cages

14 cannot confine fish and these have a huge

15 impact on natural resources, the natural

16 behaviors of these highly migratory fish, the

17 salmon, they are exuberant when they are in

18 the waters.

19 You are considering allowing feed

20 to come from non-organic fish. But it's also

21 the competition with fisheries and we have

22 seen this. When the fish farms flooded our
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1 markets with highly subsidized fish, it caused

2 almost a complete collapse of the value of the

3 wild fisheries. My license was $300,000 in

4 1995. That's why I fished on crutches,

5 because we were making money and we had to be

6 on the boat. Seven years later because of the

7 flooding of the markets by farmed fish, my

8 license was valued at $20,000 and over that

9 winter of 2002, I knew of three suicides.

10 So I initiated the lawsuit that

11 required the labeling of colorants in farmed

12 salmon and now there is some differentiation

13 in the marketplace. There's also a huge, huge

14 push by other industries trying to come in and

15 doing very concentrated feedlot operations in

16 our marine waters.

17 And I come from Washington State.

18 We know about factory farms in our marine

19 waters, if you learn about shrimp farming,

20 this is geoduck farming, all those beaches and

21 tubes stomped in. This is salmon farming

22 right in Puget Sound. These farms in
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1 Washington State allow 11 million pounds of

2 sewage, basically, to flush into our waters.

3 These don't contain pathogens. We've had

4 viral hemorrhagic septicemia in our waters.

5 The industry pays zero for this

6 sewage disposal. So while farmers are making

7 changes to practices to make sure that the

8 water that comes from your farms and goes into

9 the coastal environment is clean, we're

10 allowing polluted waters from fish farming.

11 You know about the feed issue, but

12 let me try and really briefly, just because we

13 have certified farmed organic fish in our

14 markets from Europe, the Europeans don't even

15 agree with that. The Irish organic farmers

16 don't believe they should be certified

17 organic. They had an association quit when

18 their association tried to certify farmed fish

19 as organic. This is what it is about, other

20 industries coming into our marine waters.

21 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Ann.

22 Jay?
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1 (Applause.)

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you, Ann.

3 Do you have a vision of an organic farmed fish

4 scenario? Is there one that this Board should

5 be considering? And as a follow-up to what --

6 is it proper for the Board to evaluate

7 materials before having that vision codified?

8 MS. MOSNESS: You know, one of the

9 things that has concerned me is that you were

10 getting your information from the proponents

11 and the lobbyists for an industry. Did you

12 hear from people from the fishing industry who

13 were going to impacted? Even Dr. Naylor said

14 she is the only one that was on your Advisory

15 Committee that was not tied to the industry.

16 I mean the very first mistake is

17 you are proceeding with something that aids an

18 industry to go into our waters and you want

19 to, I am sure, want to be helpful to that

20 industry because you have been hearing from

21 them. I think it is absolutely disastrous to

22 take these incremental steps first before you
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1 have looked at the production systems. And

2 the one thing I would recommend is you don't

3 allow any industry that lets its manure flush

4 away from its operation. If you did nothing

5 else, only look at closed containment. You

6 wouldn't let hog farms come into city, state,

7 or federal parks without a containment plan

8 for manure.

9 So again, I think the one thing

10 you could do is differentiate closed

11 containment wherever it exists. They have

12 bladder situations that they can

13 experimentally use in a coastal environment

14 where they do take out the effluence, the

15 waste. They process it.

16 Yes, it adds cost. But why do we

17 think that any dirty industry has the right to

18 pollute our commons, our public coastal

19 waters? You know you have all, all the

20 farmers have made changes to make sure their

21 waste, their runoff doesn't go into our

22 coastal waters. And yet, you would consider
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1 letting a dirty industry park right out there,

2 three miles from our coastal rivers? That is

3 under NOAA's plan. This is a NOAA photograph.

4 That is the Department of Commerce.

5 So, we have all these competing

6 agencies and they are hearing from the

7 industries that want to go into our waters and

8 utilize decommissioned oil rigs for the

9 aquaculture industry. You know it is about

10 bankrupting the coastal fishing industry

11 because then you don't have resistance to open

12 pit mining, coal trains, oil pipelines.

13 So the worst thing that could

14 happen is somehow giving this industry your

15 stamp of approval when you haven't really

16 looked at the impacts.

17 CHAIR STONE: Francis.

18 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you, Ann.

19 We get loud and clear your message about

20 coastal aquaculture.

21 What is your opinion on closed

22 systems like ponds and such, organic --
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1 MS. MOSNESS: Well, that is what I

2 say. If it contains the effluence, and

3 doesn't allow interaction with the wild

4 species, it is that exchange, these marine net

5 pens actually are reservoirs. They amplify.

6 It is a dense, crowded conditions. And so,

7 any pathogens and parasites will amplify.

8 Well, then that spreads out from the pens and

9 they are actually attractants for the

10 predators and for other wild species. So,

11 this just disperses this.

12 But if you have a contained

13 system, you know and they have some raising

14 salmon, so that they don't -- they are not

15 totally capable of confining everything.

16 You probably haven't heard very

17 much from independent scientists but they have

18 looked at the fact that the juveniles have

19 escaped from closed containment systems. The

20 water is not always totally filtered but it is

21 the best. It has to get better but it is

22 certainly the only thing you should look at.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you,

2 Ann.

3 MS. MOSNESS: Thank you.

4 CHAIR STONE: We are going to do

5 two more before we break for lunch. That gets

6 to the end of -- I think we have them

7 segmented by Livestock Subcommittee.

8 So, Jim Pierce to the podium and

9 we will break for lunch after Harriet Behar is

10 finished.

11 MR. PIERCE: All right, thank you.

12 For the record, I am Jim Pierce, Global

13 Organic Program Manager for Oregon Tilth

14 Certified Organic. As you know, OTCO is the

15 best certifier, but there is precious little

16 time to dwell on that now.

17 Since the beginning of the

18 discussions through the NOSB Aquaculture

19 Symposium in 2007, the repeated draft

20 recommendations and the final NOSB

21 recommendations for aquaculture in 2007

22 through 2010, Oregon Tilth has been an active
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1 participant challenger and supporter of the

2 addition of organic aquaculture to the scope

3 of the National Organic Program.

4 We are now encouraging you to move

5 forward with discussion and voting at this

6 meeting on the Livestock Subcommittee's

7 recommendations for materials so that the

8 aquaculture standards and the list of

9 permitted substances for aquaculture can come

10 out relatively hand-in-hand.

11 Since you have blaringly read all

12 977 written comments, you are aware that OTCO,

13 with some very astute and valuable comments

14 regarding listing aquaculture materials

15 consistently with current listings, endorses

16 the addition of nine of the 11 materials on

17 the docket for aquatic animal and plant

18 production and that we have concerns about

19 micro-nutrients in CO2.

20 Therefore in these oral comments,

21 I would like to respectfully address some of

22 the concerns expressed in the comments that we
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1 are hearing, as well as the minority opinion

2 included with many of the Subcommittee's

3 recommendations.

4 Organic aquaculture has been

5 defined. Canada and the EU have organic

6 standards, aquaculture standards that include

7 permitted substances and that seem to be

8 meeting consumer expectations.

9 The NOP standards are written, and

10 it was good to learn yesterday that they are

11 glacially progressing through the python but

12 without a materials list, they will be mostly

13 useless, since these materials are essential

14 for success.

15 The U.S. organic movement would be

16 nowhere if the NOP standards had been launched

17 in 2002 with nothing listed in Section 600.

18 Aquaculture materials today might make it out

19 of the sausage smokehouse in just a few short

20 years, after the standards, which in many

21 cases will be gathering dust since, again,

22 materials like vitamins, minerals, and
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1 vaccines are essential.

2 We have heard again the concerns

3 that aquaculture in general and open nets and

4 pens in particular are inappropriate for an

5 organic system. To challenge the alleged

6 ghost of this hotel, I am here to tell you

7 that is fish poo, partner.

8 Seriously, like conventional

9 poultry and conventional dairy, organic

10 aquaculture producers will expose the bad

11 practices of conventional aquaculture and

12 concerned consumers will reward these best

13 practitioners by raising farm-raised fish and

14 plants with the USDA organic logo, the world's

15 most successful eco label. We are seeing this

16 happen in Europe and Canada, where small scale

17 family fish farms are, once again, becoming

18 competitive and viable.

19 In closing, there will be public

20 comment periods for the NOP aquaculture

21 standards and additional public comment

22 periods to evaluate the materials on the
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1 docket today to those standards.

2 Work the system. We have a system

3 that works. It doesn't work perfectly but it

4 works good and they need not be enemies.

5 For the record, while we do not

6 agree with every NOP decision and every NOSB

7 recommendation, we do so with respect and

8 appreciation of your efforts. We do not agree

9 with the grandstanding showmanship and tactics

10 of divisiveness and attack which are toxifying

11 your collaboration. We have confidence in the

12 NOP and in the NOSB and in the system. We are

13 happy to see and anxious to assist the

14 encouraging momentum of the program. Even

15 while we are not on the same side, we are on

16 the same team, advancing a common cause and a

17 darn good one. La dolce vita. Molte grazie.

18 (Applause.)

19 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Zea?

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Jim.

21 Could you address the points raised by the

22 previous commenter about the fish in the net
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1 pens in the ocean not being able to express

2 their natural behaviors and being like

3 confinement feedlots and inputs and waste

4 escaping into the open ocean, and how that

5 would ever be quantified as organic?

6 MR. PIERCE: Just that. Okay,

7 yes, I can and I hope it's adequate. It is a

8 big topic.

9 This discussion has been going on

10 for over ten years. And just like what you

11 are hearing with the methionine, we are

12 catching up with discussions that have

13 happened ten years or longer ago. So this was

14 definitely a concern.

15 The comparison of salmon with

16 their natural behavior is certainly

17 legitimate. However, I am pretty sure we can

18 certify organic buffalo now today. And they

19 are going to be in some sort of a confinement

20 system or a contained system, I would hope.

21 As far as the effluent from the

22 net pen system, that is a good point. Because
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1 there is definitely a problem. Just like

2 conventional poultry and pork, there is bad

3 things going on. Make a legitimate standard,

4 set a bar, let the curious monkeys that are

5 the entrepreneurs of the organic industry

6 figure out how to meet that bar.

7 My understanding is that the

8 proposal for net pen aquaculture includes

9 mandatory, integrated nutrient management. In

10 other words, something has to be absorbing

11 that manure, those nutrients.

12 And I forget if there was another

13 point to your question, Zea. No? Good.

14 CHAIR STONE: Francis, did that

15 get yours? Okay. Thanks.

16 Jay?

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: Could you define

18 glacially moving, please?

19 MR. PIERCE: Well it was a bit of

20 a mixed metaphor because it is glacially

21 moving through a python. But, I am glad you

22 noticed it and called me out on it. It is
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1 artistic license.

2 CHAIR STONE: Thanks, Jim. We

3 appreciate it.

4 Harriet, I would appreciate it if

5 you would close it out for lunch.

6 MS. BEHAR: Okay, I am Harriet

7 Behar. I am with the Midwest Organic

8 Sustainable Education Service, otherwise known

9 as MOSES. And we interact with thousands of

10 organic farmers on a yearly basis.

11 I want to talk a little bit about

12 systems. And systems as we work here,

13 reviewing organic standards and materials, and

14 systems out on the farm.

15 So, first I want to say to the NOP

16 that I hope that you are listening to the many

17 unhappy voices about the changes to Sunset and

18 to the policy and activities of the NOSB. We

19 may not always have an administrator who is

20 knowledgeable and committed to organic as you

21 Miles, in the future, and I would hate for

22 this legacy to pass down to someone else who
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1 may be would not have as a heartfelt promotion

2 of organic at the helm.

3 Also, I want to talk a little bit

4 about the organic label and that we have --

5 when we label things as organic, we have a

6 little five percent that we know is not

7 organic. And I think that we here in the room

8 tend to focus so much on that five percent and

9 forget about the 95 percent. And I hate the

10 idea that the consumers and the farmers that

11 are so emotionally tied to organic will see

12 what we discuss here and lessen their trust

13 and support of organic due to our focus so

14 much on the five percent that might be

15 problematic.

16 I want to also talk about

17 methionine. Again, where is the system in

18 this? There is an ATTRA publication, which I

19 can pass around that was put out in 2010 that

20 has got a long list of methionine

21 alternatives. There is skim milk, there is

22 dried whey, there is protein from potatoes.
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1 There is a lot of opportunities here. And I

2 think that this reliance on a corn and

3 soybean-based diet for poultry has actually

4 gone out into our larger system, where we have

5 difficulty with our grain producers having a

6 good crop rotation because they are producing

7 corn and soybeans for the poultry.

8 So, I mean, it is a larger

9 systems-based issue here and I think that the

10 NOSB, through your directive, can encourage

11 people to be growing more in a rotation. I

12 challenge the Feed Mill and the Methionine

13 Task Force to really be doing some more work

14 on these alternative items. You know

15 sunflower meal was talked about, sesame meal.

16 There is a lot of items here that can be done

17 and are being done organically.

18 But that said, I do support what

19 the Livestock Committee has done. I am very

20 concerned about animal welfare and I want to

21 tie that in as well.

22 So, we want the animals to be
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1 outside. I am concerned and I am hoping that

2 we will see soon some animal welfare

3 standards. I know that my farmers said, not

4 that MOSES has farmers, or a lot of people who

5 talk to MOSES are concerned about that organic

6 is losing its recognition as the gold standard

7 and that there isn't animal welfare. They

8 consider organic possibly being the CAFO of

9 poultry.

10 I also know that there is not

11 enough organic eggs out there. So, I would

12 like the future organic farms to be truly

13 given the direction to give outside access to

14 their birds. I have seen it done on large

15 farms and it can be done. But they can't take

16 failed conventional operations and --

17 CHAIR STONE: You've got prize

18 number two right there.

19 Thank you. Questions for Harriet?

20 Jennifer.

21 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you. Could

22 you continue your -- did you complete your
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1 thought or would you continue?

2 MS. BEHAR: Yes, it is a

3 conventional operation, where we just put

4 chickens in the house and feed them organic

5 feed. That is not an organic system.

6 CHAIR STONE: Thank you for that

7 but thank you for respect for the stop light.

8 Okay, Harriet, thank you very

9 much.

10 (Applause.)

11 CHAIR STONE: We are going to

12 break. I have got 12:33. So, let's say 1:45

13 back here and Rebecca Willows is first and

14 Lynn Coody is second. Please be prompt,

15 because that we are going to start promptly at

16 1:45.

17 (Whereupon, at 12:33 p.m., a lunch

18 recess was taken.)

19

20

21

22
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 (1:49 p.m.)

3 CHAIR STONE: A couple of

4 announcements. Thank you. We are going to

5 get started here, if you all could be quiet in

6 the back, please.

7 So just a reminder if any of you

8 weren't here, the stop light thing works. The

9 green light goes to blinking, I think when you

10 are halfway through and then it goes to yellow

11 for the last minute.

12 And Rebecca and Lynn, you all are

13 going to have a really tough time dragging

14 this cup out of Liana's hands and the tee15 shirt out of -- who was it? I didn't write it

16 down -- to Harriet. Harriet did the dead stop

17 thing and Liana's got the perfect timing award

18 so far. You all can decide which one gets

19 which, actually.

20 So, a couple of things. Reminder

21 cell phones on vibrate, please. It has been

22 very good. I hadn't heard any problems there.
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1 Remind everyone about the reception tonight.

2 It is just a couple of blocks away that NCAT

3 and TOFGA and a few others are hosting for

4 everyone in attendance to the meeting.

5 Anything else housekeeping? Very

6 good. So, thank you all for coming back

7 promptly and Rebecca, you are up.

8 MS. WILLOWS: All right. Hi. My

9 name is Rebecca Willows and I am commenting on

10 behalf of the Organic Produce Wholesalers

11 Coalition, OPWC, which is comprised of ten

12 businesses that distribute fresh organic

13 produce to retailers, restaurants, and other

14 customers across the United States and

15 internationally.

16 I am a certification coordinator

17 at Organically Grown Company headquartered in

18 Eugene, Oregon, which is a member of the OPWC.

19 OGC is also a supporting member of the

20 Accredited Certifiers Association. OPWC has

21 given written comments on several topics but

22 I am addressing the Sound and Sensible
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1 Initiative. The OPWC appreciates the work

2 that both the NOSB and NOP are doing on the

3 Sound and Sensible Initiative. We believe

4 that the goals of streamlining procedures and

5 clarifying regulations will play an important

6 role in creating a better system.

7 I would like to share the

8 following four points on the Sound and

9 Sensible Initiative. First, real-time

10 operator database from the NOP. The NOP

11 database is only updated once a year and is,

12 therefore, not reliable for verification of

13 certification status. As a result, all of the

14 OPWC members are burdened with the task of

15 maintaining our own complex databases for

16 verifying certification. Real-time

17 information on operator certification status

18 and accurate product lists on certificates are

19 the number one changes that would make the

20 regulatory environment both more sound and

21 sensible. This change would save time, money,

22 ensure integrity, and allow the organic
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1 marketplace to flow in a more predictable and

2 efficient manner.

3 Second, single standardized

4 formats for certificates. Currently, each

5 organic certifier uses its own format for its

6 certificate. Especially problematic for us is

7 that they have different dates, sometimes with

8 different definitions. We suggest the NOP

9 require a valid until date on certificates.

10 Permanent certificate numbers

11 should be assigned to each certified party and

12 serve as a constant reference number on the

13 NOP website.

14 Third, the NOP instruction on 2603

15 on organic certificates. We applaud the NOP's

16 recent revision to NOP 2603 instruction on

17 organic certificates and we strongly support

18 inclusion of the reference to 205.501(a)(21)

19 which requires mandatory implementation of the

20 elements of the instruction by certifiers.

21 However, we feel the NOP's use of the term

22 should and must on 2603 need clarification.
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1 We are concerned that the framing points with

2 should or must will allow an opening for

3 certifiers to claim that these points are not

4 subject to mandatory implementation.

5 OPWC urges the NOP to include this

6 new instruction at its annual training for

7 other ACA agents in order to ensure that all

8 ACAs implement the changes as soon as

9 possible.

10 So, now on the fourth, sound and

11 sensible investigations. When OPWC members

12 have made formal complaints to the NOP, we

13 have found the current process of handling

14 compliance investigations is slow and lacks

15 transparency. Long time frames for resolving

16 complaints and other enforcement issues

17 significantly impact commerce in the fresh

18 produce industry. Purchase and sales

19 decisions are put into limbo. The product may

20 become spoiled or enter and run through the

21 market before the NOP's compliance system

22 takes effect. The OPWC appreciates the NOP's
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1 recent efforts to reduce the time needed to

2 close enforcement actions and we urge the

3 agency to continue to monitor and report on

4 the activities of the NOP's compliance and

5 enforcement division, so that the time frames

6 for enforcement activities can be further

7 shortened, thus, making them more relevant to

8 the organic marketplace.

9 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank

10 you, Rebecca. Questions, comments? Nick.

11 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, Rebecca,

12 about your second point, valid until. If

13 there were a legal problem with doing that,

14 and I won't go into the reasons for that,

15 would something along the lines of inspected

16 through with a date, let's say inspected

17 through December 31, 2014, would that be

18 sufficient?

19 There may be legal issues raised

20 with the ability to revoke and affect a

21 certificate with an expiration date, as

22 opposed to another action.
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1 MS. WILLOW: Right. Well, there

2 is two points on that. One, we would like to

3 see either a valid or a certificate that

4 expires but the certified entity may not, so

5 that there are two separate ways of saying

6 okay, the certificate is no longer valid. The

7 certifier is still certified.

8 Secondly, the inspection date is

9 not on the certificate currently. And that,

10 alone, would greatly help the marketplace

11 because it is the only date that has any

12 reference in the rules for a time frame for

13 the next action.

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, as long as

15 you are aware of the issues, I think you will

16 be able to work that through.

17 MR. McEVOY: Yes, just a point of

18 clarification on that. The way that the rules

19 are written is that certification is valid

20 until it is surrendered, suspended, or

21 revoked. There is an NOSB recommendation from

22 a few years back that requests that
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1 certificates expire. So, it is one of dozens

2 of NOSB recommendations that we have not fully

3 addressed. The intent is is that we will go

4 back and do some rulemaking to have those

5 certificates expire so that they are valid for

6 a yearly basis. But that requires a

7 rulemaking action.

8 But at this point, certificates

9 are valid until they are surrendered,

10 suspended, or revoked.

11 MEMBER MARAVELL: So you think you

12 can legally put an expiration date that would

13 not violate your current policy or you would

14 have to change policy.

15 MR. McEVOY: Right, you would have

16 to change the regulations in order to put that

17 expiration date on there.

18 So, the organic certificate

19 instruction clarifies what we are saying, the

20 requirements for certifiers to issue that. We

21 also intend to, we would like to move to a

22 unified organic certificate so they all look
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1 the same. So, that is part of our information

2 technology initiative for improvements.

3 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you

4 very much.

5 Lynn Coody to the podium and Bill

6 Denevan on deck.

7 MS. COODY: Hi. My name is Lynn

8 Coody and today I am speaking on behalf of the

9 National Organic Coalition, an alliance of

10 organizations representing farmers,

11 environmentalists, other industry members and

12 consumers working together to ensure the

13 integrity of National Organic Standards.

14 Today, I would like to comment on

15 Sound and Sensible. In response to the

16 discussion document on this topic that was

17 prepared by the CACS for the fall 2013 NOSB

18 meeting, NOC submitted specific ideas for

19 improving NOP certification and accreditation

20 programs. Our paper discusses a range of

21 topics, including improving OSP forms,

22 training inspectors and auditors, upgrading
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1 methods for evaluating materials, and

2 suggestions about the records required of

3 organic farmers and handlers.

4 The primary focus of NOC's

5 comments was the need for oversight systems

6 that provide proactive, continuous quality

7 assessments at every level of the regulatory

8 system of the U.S. organic industry.

9 On this topic of oversight, NOC's

10 comments introduce a concept of a National

11 Organic Quality System as a way to frame the

12 discussion of the Sound and Sensible

13 Initiative. The concept focuses on management

14 of the multiple levels of the NOP regulatory

15 systems as an integrated whole. We believe

16 that this integrated view affords

17 opportunities for redistributing burdens and

18 responsibilities of quality assurance, so that

19 they are commensurate with the level of

20 authority at each level of the oversight

21 system established by OFPA. In turn, this

22 allows both increased efficiency and increased
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1 effectiveness, which boils down to Sound and

2 Sensible.

3 This is a complex concept that is

4 better understood by reading our comments.

5 But for now, here is an example of how this

6 concept plays out in a practical way. The

7 foundation of the National Organic Quality

8 System is the certified operation of farm or

9 handling operation that is overseen by an

10 accredited certification agent. NOC believes

11 that the level of paperwork used to document

12 this relationship has become overly burdensome

13 on farmers and handlers. In response, some

14 certifiers have implemented systems that allow

15 operators the option of maintaining the

16 working copy of their OSP as an electronic

17 document on the certifiers' computer network.

18 This supports easier electronic updates, while

19 ensuring that the operator and certification

20 staff are using the same information. This is

21 an example of rebalancing the responsibility

22 for management of a quality system
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1 documentation from operators to certifiers.

2 In this case, the system is not only more

3 effective and more efficient. It is also more

4 equitable. This same principle applies at the

5 next level up of the National Organic System,

6 where NOC has identified a lack of continuous

7 oversight of the NOP as an important

8 impediment to the principles of Sound and

9 Sensible. Failure to implement the peer

10 review panel and oversight mechanism required

11 by both OFPA and NOP's regulation has resulted

12 in systems which are noncompliant with Section

13 509 of NOP's own regulation. And this has

14 been shown in the results of internal audits

15 and other audits that have been done by the

16 Office of Inspector General and the National

17 Institute of Standards and Technology, which

18 have documented problems related to this.

19 So in conclusion, Organic

20 Regulatory Systems must function as a

21 practical marketing tool for organic farmers,

22 handlers, and other stakeholders, who rely on
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1 the clarity and validity of the organic claim

2 in the marketplace.

3 We urge you to review our written

4 comments, which provide specific comments

5 about how to achieve this goal and we did try

6 to be constructive and very specific about the

7 ideas that we provided.

8 Thank you very much.

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Lynn.

10 Miles?

11 MR. McEVOY: Yes, a point of

12 clarification there. The Office of the

13 Inspector General did do an audit report March

14 of 2010 had some specific findings about the

15 USDA National Organic Program not implementing

16 the peer review panel. AMS took some

17 recommended actions, based on that. And OIG

18 has closed that, based on those corrective

19 actions that the program has taken.

20 So, we are meeting the

21 requirements of a peer review panel. There

22 are more things to do and we appreciate the
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1 input that NOC has provided, in terms of

2 making improvements to that whole system.

3 MS. COODY: Well, in turn, we

4 appreciate the proactive stance that you have

5 taken to try to improve the situation and

6 address some of the noncompliances that were

7 brought out by the audits.

8 Now, auditing is an opportunity to

9 provide a very specific feedback on the

10 quality of a regulatory system and so that has

11 been great that you have taken corrective

12 actions. We do look forward to having a more

13 proactive situation with the peer review panel

14 that addresses not only the requirements of

15 the NOP's own regulation but also the

16 requirement of to be compliant with ISO 17011,

17 which is in your regulation as well. So, that

18 is an area I think that could potentially be

19 improved, based on the results from the NIST

20 audit.

21 So, and I have looked forward to

22 working with you on this more, Miles.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Great.

2 MS. COODY: Done?

3 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Lynn.

4 MS. COODY: Thank you.

5 CHAIR STONE: Bill Denevan to the

6 podium and David Moore on deck.

7 MR. DENEVAN: Hello. My name is

8 Bill Denevan. From '76 to 2006, I grew 120

9 acres of organic pears and apples under the

10 Denevan Apple and Happy Valley labels. In the

11 '80s, I served on the Board of Directors of

12 CCOF. I have been employed for the last 20

13 years as California and Chili Grower Rep for

14 Viva Terra, formerly known as CF Fresh.

15 Three years' ago, I was elected to

16 the Board of Directors of the California Apple

17 Commission. I represent District 2. And I

18 just got done visiting growers that I

19 represent in the Central Valley.

20 Although I don't put my money

21 where my mouth is, like I did when I was a

22 grower, I still remember that time in my life.
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1 Most of the farmers I visit, they walk a

2 financial tightrope, just like I did. The

3 last thing that we need now is to lose the

4 ability to borrow money from the bank and be

5 financially successful.

6 Nothing upsets a grower more than

7 losing its future in one year due to blight.

8 There is no bug, no fungus, no freeze, no bad

9 market, nor any dilemma that can destroy a

10 grower as quick as blight can.

11 The way I see it, throwing out all

12 the antibiotic controls for the next year and

13 making growers experiment, instead of letting

14 them use their currently most effective tool

15 in their disease toolbox would be an

16 incredibly illogical move. At the very least,

17 we should have a chance to create a new

18 reasonable time line so as to figuring a new

19 effective spray regiment.

20 All the organic growers I know are

21 honest, hard-working, salt of the earth types

22 who strive to give organic consumers the
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1 cleanest fruit they can grow. Antibiotics

2 have been in use for 30 years in organics and

3 applied only when necessary. Yes, we all

4 realize there has to be other ways to kill

5 blight. Yes, we are in the process of trying

6 them all. Why be in such a hurry without

7 sufficient trials and protocol? Why do we

8 have to seriously think about being ready to

9 jump off the cliff and have many trees dying

10 next year? We already have enough serious

11 tasks to deal with markets, financing, hail,

12 labor, fertilizers, and feeding our families.

13 The main reason for my coming to

14 this meeting today is to let the decision15 makers on the NOSB Board know that my research

16 into the effectiveness of these highly-touted

17 organic alternatives shows that without a

18 doubt these new materials are not ready for

19 prime time. Nearly all the experts I have

20 talked to say that any non-antibiotic control

21 is a work in progress and many more efficacy

22 trials must be done before they can write
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1 solid recommendations.

2 As we speak, in Reedley today

3 there are over $1,500 per acre being spent on

4 cutting out a burning blight on over 100 acres

5 of organic Gala and Granny. This includes

6 three growers. On the 30 acres with the most

7 damage, the grower religiously adhered to the

8 copper, lime, sulfur Blossom Protect with

9 buffer type spray regiment, currently being

10 touted by the industry experts in Washington.

11 His blooms had 60 percent blight on the trees.

12 That is an incredible amount of cutting.

13 Now, he has shoot blight today.

14 He has cut everything out of the blossoms that

15 have been infected. Now he is getting these

16 shoots that are dying and it is starting run

17 down the branches. Anyway, he is using

18 Blossom Protect and this is his second year

19 using Blossom Protect and he has got bad

20 blight as a result.

21 Another grower has got 75 acres of

22 organic Gala, Asian pears. He has horrible
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1 blight. He has been using Agri-Mycin,

2 MicroShield, lime sulfur, as these chemicals

3 are approved for this year. It is his first

4 year doing organic and he has got less damage

5 than the Blossom Protect guy has and he needs

6 some more research and protocol.

7 The good thing about this proposed

8 ban is that we are going to be able evolve

9 some kind of good protocol.

10 In the same neighborhood, another

11 grower, who is in transition, has 20 acres.

12 He is spraying every three days with an

13 alternating MicroShield and Agri-Mycin and has

14 little damage on his 18 acres. So, he has two

15 acres of Blossom Protect and they are

16 terrible.

17 So, basically, what I wanted to

18 say is that as far as I am concerned, these

19 new products, there's 15 of them out there,

20 blight control products that they're saying

21 hey, you've got to try them out, they're

22 placebos. They've got WSDA and OMRI
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1 imprimaturs on them and they are not working.

2 And I think this is ridiculous.

3 If you want to send all of

4 California pear and apple business to South

5 America and to Washington -- well, to South

6 America where blight doesn't exist and send

7 the growers of our state packing back to

8 conventional, then don't give us our extension

9 that we need.

10 This year is the worst blight I

11 have ever seen since I started farming in '76.

12 We have had warm temperatures. The most

13 warmest temperatures ever recorded. The bloom

14 has not been compact and advantageous for

15 doing Blossom Protect sprays. We have had a

16 bloom for five weeks. The flowers on the

17 apples have been open for too long. This kind

18 of situation happens in California every five

19 years and in Washington, it almost never

20 happens. They always have adequate chill up

21 there.

22 Nothing has been developed for
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1 warmer climates and California is not the only

2 one. There is Pennsylvania. There is other

3 places that have trouble, too.

4 Anyway, the California Pear and

5 Apple Commission and the many growers have

6 allotted big chunks of our orchards to study

7 the problem and have been trying to use these

8 new products that cost two to four times more

9 than the products that we know that work. And

10 we are certainly not ready to jump over the

11 cliff, unless the proposed ban pushes us over.

12 That's it.

13 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Bill.

14 Harold.

15 MEMBER AUSTIN: Bill, thanks for

16 coming. I appreciate the concerns and the

17 issues that the growers in California are

18 dealing with, as well as others across the

19 country.

20 Could you answer us, based on your

21 personal experience in your involvement with

22 the growers, any efficacy differences between
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1 the materials in apples versus pears? And

2 then also, do you see any difference in

3 efficacy with materials, based off the age of

4 a tree or is there certain varieties that are

5 more susceptible?

6 MR. DENEVAN: That's a really good

7 question. Let's get to the latter. Trees

8 that are really young, they die in a hurry.

9 Trees that are vigorous, that are well10 fertilized and happy, all of a sudden they get

11 this bacteria and they die in the same year

12 that they get the blight.

13 Anything that is four years' old

14 and younger, whether it is a pear or an apple,

15 especially a Pink Lady, the blight will come

16 in through the blossom and run. And it will

17 run all the way down to the roots. I have

18 seen 400 acres taken out in California from

19 five-year-old trees that were not sprayed

20 properly.

21 Like I said, this is not something

22 that you can get rid of in one year. This guy
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1 that used Blossom Protect last year and really

2 he had blight, a little bit of blight last

3 year. He had a little bit of cankers in his

4 trees as a result of not having taken care of

5 it last year. This year, he went to the label

6 and beyond and what did he get? He has got 60

7 percent of all of his spurs are dieback. And

8 now he has got shoot blight. It is

9 incredible.

10 Your other question was what?

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: Pears, the

12 difference between apples and pears.

13 MR. DENEVAN: Pears are the worst.

14 They always have a late, a delayed bloom.

15 They never do a snowball bloom. And yes,

16 pears die faster than apples, as a rule.

17 Although this year, I am changing my idea on

18 that. This year was unbelievable. I have

19 never seen this kind of damage. And I just

20 came out of the field. I was there last week

21 looking at the trees and I don't even want to

22 look at them. It is so disgusting. Because
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1 I grew pears for 30 years and I know how fast

2 you can lose branches.

3 One year, I took every single spur

4 and shoot off of every single tree of 2,500

5 trees and was left with just the leaders, just

6 the basic framework of the tree, and had to

7 regrow all the fruit. It took years to get

8 back.

9 And that is the problem. The

10 people that are wanting us to jump off the

11 cliff and get rid of the antibiotics

12 immediately, they don't understand that it is

13 not like any other situation that has ever

14 happened to anybody. You have to be a grower.

15 You have to be somebody that puts your money

16 where your mouth is. You plant a tree, it

17 last for your whole generation, your whole

18 life. It is different than a bug or a market

19 thing or hail. These are all like things that

20 could be taken care of over a year or two.

21 But blight, once you get it, you are fighting

22 it forever.
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1 So, any other questions about

2 blight or the tetracycline ban?

3 CHAIR STONE: Jennifer.

4 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you for your

5 presentation. I was just wondering. As you

6 talk to your growers around the different

7 areas, do you ever have conversations about

8 different kinds of alternative management

9 systems that they could use or should use or

10 are using?

11 MR. DENEVAN: Well, for one thing,

12 every year is a little different. And if you

13 have inoculant from the year before, that

14 means you have a certain protocol to operate

15 on that particular year. So, the last year,

16 your history affects what you do now. And

17 then your region predicts what you do.

18 I advise people not to grow Pink

19 Ladies because they seem to get it worse than

20 any other variety. And I advise people to try

21 to spray closer, when we have really hot

22 events and it is a warm winter, I advise them
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1 to get out there and spray more often.

2 As far as planting other trees and

3 things like that, like I said, this is a long4 term tree. You plant a tree, you don't go and

5 say oh, gosh, I have got seven-year-old trees

6 and I have to go on a whole new regiment and

7 I will just plow it all under. It is not like

8 growing a row crop where you can say oh, I am

9 tired of growing this, I will grow something

10 else or I will go fallow. This is something

11 that you commit to for, we are talking a

12 decade's commitment.

13 I know it is hard for people to

14 understand that but I committed to growing my

15 crops for 30 years. And I would build up

16 fungus. There are so many issues. But with

17 fire blight, trying new things is what we are

18 all about. We were forced to. We were forced

19 to. We were told five years ago that we had

20 better get the heck into something new.

21 So, the biggest problem -- and

22 this is a really good question. The biggest
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1 problem really is we need pesticide

2 manufacturers, and we need researcher, and we

3 need cooperation of other growers who are

4 trying different methods. We need to have a

5 consensus of ideas developed that we can work

6 together on, not like just hey, my time line

7 says goodbye right now. No, that isn't the

8 way nature works. That is not the way growing

9 crops work. It works in a less finite kind of

10 way. Do you hear what I am saying?

11 CHAIR STONE: Great, thank you,

12 Bill.

13 MR. DENEVAN: All right.

14 CHAIR STONE: David Moore to the

15 podium and Alexis Randolph is on deck.

16 MR. MOORE: Good afternoon,

17 everybody. I am David Moore. I am a

18 California licensed agricultural pest control

19 advisor and qualified applicator and almost

20 alone here today. I am here to talk about

21 205.206(e).

22 Section 205.206(e) is the gem of
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1 organic agriculture. It is not just the only

2 regulatory mandate for IPM. It is where the

3 certification system affirms and enforces the

4 goals of the NOP. It is also where the

5 organic grower faces the very real challenges

6 of crop protection. This point, where the

7 grower and his or her OSP affirm the authority

8 of the certifier and of the NOP is the crux of

9 the integrity and longevity of organics. This

10 is a really tall order for a really short

11 regulation. And while 206(e) is rightfully

12 the pride of organic regulation, it is proper

13 and, I would say, critical for this Board to

14 examine it and show that it is always up to

15 that task.

16 Section 206(e) must not stifle the

17 initiative and the ingenuity of the organic

18 grower. It must not be interpreted in ways

19 that hobble the growth and advance of

20 organics. And it must become a primary driver

21 of more organic farms, more organic acres, and

22 of more and more affordable organic food.
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1 The word insufficient must not be

2 interpreted to force growers to repeat failed

3 practices, to forego established best

4 practices, or to violate other regulations,

5 including other parts of the NOP. In Silicon

6 Valley, they like to say don't let perfect

7 become the enemy of good.

8 The rigors of how 206(e) is

9 applied on the ground must be considered

10 during Sunset and petition reviews. Section

11 206(e) is the bulwark to ensure the synthetics

12 on 601 are used in accordance with the goals

13 of the NOP and assertions that listing a

14 synthetic material somehow allows misuse or

15 abuse are disingenuous.

16 I was taught that organic

17 agriculture is founded on the concept of the

18 farm as a system for the well-fed, well cared

19 for soil of its foundation. This, presumably,

20 is one reason certification and regulation is

21 rooted in a system of grower actions tailored

22 to that grower's farm. Systems remain stable
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1 due to feedback and the grower's OSP is the

2 organ of that feedback. Regulating organics

3 is also a system and the NOSB is one organ of

4 that feedback.

5 The important concerns for 206(e)

6 are an example of that feedback, as stated in

7 the Subcommittee document. And I want to

8 thank the Board for showing the courage to

9 address this. This board should be gravely

10 concerned by the indifference that 206(e)so

11 often faces. A review of 206(e)should be a

12 system of ongoing feedback with a goal

13 elevating 206(e) to its proper place as the

14 beacon or organic regulation.

15 The document before you today is a

16 very important step but it has its

17 shortcomings. It raises the issues of public

18 misperception and poorly informed stakeholders

19 and notes how these issues sap NOSB resources

20 and distract from the tasks at hand, yet there

21 is not express call to address this.

22 Ongoing review of 206(e) should
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1 include focused efforts to eliminate these

2 persistent problems. The incredibly

3 widespread misperception that organics are

4 somehow free of chemical controls is

5 disgraceful. And it is a discredit to the

6 diligence of the organic grower and the

7 industry as a whole. It is an intellectual

8 dishonesty and it sullies the reputation of an

9 industry that professes to pride itself on the

10 transparency.

11 One duty of the organic

12 stakeholder is to challenge the misinformed

13 and to educate the uniformed. And the Board's

14 review of 206(e) should explicitly address

15 that duty, not merely acknowledge it.

16 I challenge this Board to act

17 decisively to try to resolve all the issues

18 identified in the Subcommittee document.

19 Thank you.

20 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank

21 you, David. Questions, comments?

22 MR. MOORE: Thank you.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank

2 you. I've always wanted to know who made sure

3 that crop rotation was 205.205. I just think

4 that is great.

5 (Laughter.)

6 CHAIR STONE: Okay, Alexis is to

7 the podium and Pat Kane is on deck.

8 MS. RANDOLPH: Okay, good

9 afternoon everybody. My name is Alexis

10 Randolph and I am representing QAI and NOP

11 Accredited Certification Agency. We are also

12 a member of the Accredited Certifiers

13 Association and a proud participant in their

14 Task Force meetings.

15 I am here to speak to you about

16 the discussion document on crop management,

17 specifically 205.206(e). QAI worked with the

18 ACA to submit written comments and we also

19 submitted additional comments directly. The

20 discussion document claims there was

21 uncertainty and variability in the application

22 of the requirements under 206(e). I find this
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1 statement puzzling.

2 All NOP certification agents

3 undergo rigorous accreditation audit and

4 mandatory annual NOP training to ensure that

5 there is no variability among certifiers.

6 Additionally, as a participant in the

7 Accredited Certifiers Association, this allows

8 us to share best practices and receive peer

9 reviewed feedback on certification procedures.

10 The heart of the discussion document appears

11 to be in question number one. What activities

12 or practices do you require the applicants and

13 certified operations in their OSP with respect

14 to compliance with 206(e)? The answer is in

15 the regulation itself. A full reading of 206,

16 bullets (a) through (d) outlines numerous

17 preventive practices, such as crop rotation,

18 plant species selection, mechanical and

19 physical methods to control pests, nutrient

20 management practices and so on.

21 Bullet (e) clearly says that when

22 preventative practices identified under
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1 bullets (a) through (d) are insufficient, then

2 and only then may substances on the National

3 List be used.

4 Certifiers are not uncertain about

5 how to read that section of the regulation or

6 how to verify preventative practices are

7 implemented. Please read the comments by the

8 ACA and QAI for more detailed information on

9 the exact contents of farm organic system

10 plans, supporting records that are maintained,

11 inspection procedures, including visual

12 observations and in-depth auditing of records,

13 all of which confirm preventative practices

14 are being implemented and are the foundation

15 of a good organic system plan.

16 Thank you very much.

17 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Alexis.

18 Questions? John.

19 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Thank you,

20 Alexis. I know you can just speak for QAI.

21 I don't want to ask you to speak for all ACAs

22 everywhere. But for QAI, would you find
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1 sufficient evidence that an operator is

2 complying and is that embedded into some sort

3 of format in the OSP template?

4 MS. RANDOLPH: Sure. In our

5 written comment, we give some examples of what

6 is in the OSP that the farmers have to submit

7 and it includes a variety of information,

8 everything from what is their crop rotation

9 plan going to be, which changes from year to

10 year; what is their cover crop going to be,

11 especially if it is a perennial system. We

12 ask detailed questions about their integrated

13 pest management, in terms of biologics and the

14 varieties of pest pressures that they are

15 receiving on farms.

16 So, it is a very complex question

17 to answer but it is being fully addressed

18 throughout the mechanism of the organic system

19 plan.

20 And then on final inspections are

21 not only auditing records, which is very

22 important in terms of looking at inputs that
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1 are being purchased and harvest records and

2 planting records, but they also did visual

3 observations of the field, walking the

4 borders, looking at the buffers, looking at

5 the overall botanics that are on the farm and

6 promoting good pest management, et cetera.

7 So, it is a very complex subject

8 but it is one that we have been doing for

9 years in the organic industry. It is the

10 foundation of organic farming.

11 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Alexis.

12 Thanks for all your work and for being here.

13 MS. RANDOLPH: Okay, thank you.

14 CHAIR STONE: Pat Kane to the

15 podium and Jessica Walden on deck.

16 MS. KANE: Hi, everyone. I am Pat

17 Kane. I am the coordinator of the Accredited

18 Certifiers Association. I would like to thank

19 the Board for all the work that you do and

20 providing our opportunity for comments.

21 I also would like to take this

22 opportunity to thank the National Organic
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1 Program for the continued efforts on guidance

2 and instructions for ACAs. It is very

3 helpful.

4 ACA submitted comments to the CACS

5 document, the request for NOP's clarification

6 and guidance on retail compliance and

7 certification. We thought the document was

8 great and supported it. We like the ideas of

9 additional education and outreach for

10 retailers in the form of guidance from NOP.

11 We also supported the Subcommittee's request

12 for clarification from the National Organic

13 Program as it applies to retailers.

14 The clarifications regarding

15 record keeping requirements for exempt and

16 excluded operations, clarification regarding

17 whether an exempt or excluded retail

18 establishment may sell products off-site,

19 including online sales, and a clarification on

20 labeling requirements in 205.308, 309, and

21 310.

22 In particular, ACA requested
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1 clarification regarding the term certified

2 facility that appears in 205.308 and

3 205.309(b). Some ACA's interpret the language

4 in these sections prepared in a certified

5 facility as referencing the retail food

6 establishment. Some interpret the wording as

7 where the product was originally produced and

8 some believe it refers to the certified

9 handler.

10 So, clarification is needed, since

11 there are restrictions on the use of the seal

12 and the certifier logo, depending upon which

13 party is certified. So, we would really like

14 some clarification on that.

15 Thank you.

16 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Pat.

17 Questions? Very good. Thank you very much

18 for your work that you do in helping the

19 certifiers.

20 Jessica Walden to the podium and

21 Charlotte Vallaeys on deck. Welcome, Jessica.

22 MS. WALDEN: Hi. Thank you. My
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1 name is Jessica Walden from QAI. I am the

2 Technical Senior Reviewer and sometimes

3 inspector, supervisor of the reviewers. I

4 also grow organic homo sapiens, currently. It

5 is a difficult process.

6 QAI is an accredited certifier and

7 we are an active member of the Accredited

8 Certifiers Association. This is a forum where

9 certifiers work together, even though we are

10 competitors. We work together to reach

11 consistency of how we interpret and implement

12 the organic regulations. And we know that we

13 are working towards the same cause, to protect

14 organic integrity, the label, the consumer,

15 the organic operator. I worked in the organic

16 industry, both in the U.S. and Australia for

17 over 18 years and I have only seen a

18 strengthening of organic requirements, the

19 organic regulations, and I have seen a

20 strengthening of certification and inspection

21 staff during that time.

22 The NOP has also only gotten
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1 better through much more transparency, open

2 dialogue, and by providing more guidance to

3 certifiers and operators and consumers. So,

4 I wanted to say thank you to the NOP. And I

5 wanted to say thank you to the NOSB as well.

6 Your work is very much appreciated and I know

7 you will continue to do good work. So, thank

8 you.

9 So why am I here? I am going to

10 talk about glycerin, actually. This is going

11 to be quick. So, as a certifier, it is not my

12 job to argue for or against the listing or

13 delisting of a specific material. However, we

14 are always supportive of the development or

15 organic alternatives for items on the list.

16 But I can report what I see are the challenges

17 for when there are changes. And hopefully,

18 they will be considered during deliberations

19 and when a final decision is made.

20 So glycerin is currently on the

21 National List as a non-agricultural synthetic.

22 We know it can be produced in several
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1 different ways as is summarized in the

2 Handler's Committee's proposal and they

3 include alkaline saponification and microbial

4 fermentation, which both could be carried out

5 according to the regulations and materials on

6 the National List.

7 Glycerin is used in a wide variety

8 of food and personal care products that are

9 certified organic. And we have heard the

10 challenges, and those include it is still

11 uncertain about the food-grade quality of the

12 organic glycerin produced currently.

13 Glycerin is also widely used in

14 natural flavors and natural colors. And those

15 natural flavors and natural colors are not

16 organic. And they are often produced for the

17 mainstream clientele and organic makes up a

18 small percentage of the market. So, in terms

19 of those manufacturers using organic glycerin,

20 there might be some time required for them to

21 start making those changes.

22 I really appreciated Bill Wolf's
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1 comments because he did identify these

2 challenges and he also proposed some

3 solutions. And he was speaking on behalf of

4 the petitioner. So, that really says

5 something.

6 You know he talked about

7 transitional solutions implementing the

8 commercial availability clause, initially, and

9 also tweaking the language of the annotations

10 as well to sort of take into account some of

11 these challenges.

12 Gwendolyn from OTA also touched

13 upon the difficulty that certifiers face when

14 evaluating whether the material is

15 agricultural, non-agricultural, synthetic,

16 non-synthetic. And so until we get that

17 guidance from the NOP, if we are looking at

18 glycerin that is going to be used in a made

19 with product, certifiers might be assessing

20 those types of glycerin in different ways.

21 So, thank you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jessica.
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1 Questions, comments? Very good. Thank you

2 very much.

3 Charlotte Vallaeys is up next and

4 Will Fantle is on deck.

5 MS. VALLAEYS: Good afternoon. My

6 name is Charlotte Vallaeys. I am with

7 Consumer Reports in our Policy and Action Arm

8 Consumers Union. We are also part of the

9 National Organic Coalition. We believe in the

10 unique value and critical role of the NOSB and

11 we are concerned with the recent disregard

12 from the USDA for this important role and

13 value of the Board.

14 I work for the Food Safety and

15 Sustainability Center at Consumer Reports.

16 Food safety and sustainability are

17 interconnected and our goal is to see the

18 entire food landscape change. Organic is part

19 of that and we want to see this label and the

20 system of agriculture that is behind it grow

21 and thrive but it needs to grow in a

22 meaningful way.
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1 The growth of the market depends

2 on the standards staying strong, aligning with

3 consumer expectations. In that way, please,

4 don't disregard or diminish in any way the

5 importance of consumers. This is a $30

6 billion industry and let's not forget where

7 those $30 billion come from: consumers who

8 are willing to pay more because they expect

9 more.

10 We responded to the NOSB's

11 research priorities request for information on

12 consumer expectations with a comprehensive

13 nationally representative survey. We hope you

14 will use the results in your deliberations.

15 Before I address NOSB agenda

16 items, we noted that the USDA states, in

17 organic promotional materials outside on the

18 table, that organic chickens are granted year19 round access to the outdoors. This is also

20 what consumers expect. Yet, we know that this

21 isn't happening and there are no specific

22 standards. We urge the NOP to move forward
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1 with animal welfare standards and enforce the

2 existing rule requiring outdoor access. We

3 also urge the USDA to prohibit the use of

4 antibiotics throughout the entire lifespan of

5 organic chickens. We have survey data on that

6 as well.

7 As with many synthetic materials,

8 we are concerned with allowing ammonium

9 hydroxide as a broiler water additive and have

10 submitted detailed comments. In milk

11 pasteurization, it would actually come in

12 direct contact with organic milk. Ammonium

13 hydroxide is a toxic substance and we think

14 you should reject the petition.

15 You have our comprehensive

16 comments on ancillary substances. The

17 National List is for single substances, not

18 formulated multi-ingredient products. Non19 organic or artificial substances used in a

20 formulation must be either organic or on the

21 National List.

22 We believe methionine is the
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1 poster child for how Sunset has failed, for

2 how materials, when they stay on the list

3 indefinitely, discourage the development of

4 natural commercially-available alternatives.

5 Regarding Sunset, the original

6 authors of OFPA in Congress have already

7 publicly urged you to reverse this policy

8 change, saying it conflicts with both the

9 letter and the intent of the statute. We

10 agree and, according to our survey results, so

11 does the vast majority of consumers.

12 We want to see the organic

13 industry grow and thrive. Consumers turn to

14 organic because it is an alternative to the

15 largely unregulated conventional food system.

16 Strong standards that meet consumer

17 expectations are the foundation of the organic

18 label and must be protected and preserved.

19 Thank you.

20 (Applause.)

21 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank

22 you, Charlotte. Questions? Thank you very
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1 much. Well done.

2 Will Fantle to the podium and Troy

3 Aykan on deck. Welcome, Will.

4 MR. FANTLE: Thank you. My name

5 is Will Fantle. I am the Co-Director of the

6 Cornucopia Institute. We have more than

7 10,000 members scattered across the country

8 and we believe we also have the largest number

9 of certified organic farmers of any other

10 comparable organization. We aim to bring

11 their voices to this meeting, to share their

12 concerns with good food consumers who want to

13 support their farmer heroes.

14 For the past two days, you have

15 heard a lot of concern and profound

16 expressions about the changes that have been

17 made to Sunset and other authority concerns

18 with the NOSB. I understand that when the

19 USDA brought the members of the NOSB to

20 Washington last February for what I will call

21 reorientation, reduction about their roles and

22 duties, they were told on more than one
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1 occasion to stay in your lane. Stay in your

2 lane.

3 The reality is that the USDA has

4 merged into the NOSB's lane, squeezing and

5 minimizing the space you were given by

6 Congress with the Organic Foods Production

7 Act, OFPA.

8 Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised,

9 after all, that the USDA told Congress that

10 they didn't want the responsibility for

11 administering the new law. Michael Sligh, the

12 first Board Chair of the NOSB appropriately

13 called this a shotgun marriage yesterday in

14 his remarks.

15 Aside from Sunset, I want to draw

16 your attention to a couple of highlighted

17 paragraphs from OFPA. The section of the law,

18 the first highlighted section, authorizes the

19 Board to hire a staff director. We believe

20 that Miles is fulfilling this function. We

21 also believe that the power dynamic between

22 the NOSB and the USDA would be significantly
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1 different if this section of the law was being

2 adhered to.

3 The second highlighted section

4 deals with who handles and authorizes TRs.

5 The Board, you have got the power who is in

6 whose lane. Some of you may be familiar with

7 the Italian-American philosopher Tony Soprano.

8 When his business associates complained about

9 this strong arm tactics, his response was:

10 "What you going to do about it?" Well, we are

11 going to do something about this. We are

12 likely going to court. This power grab on

13 Sunset and NOSB authority cannot and will not

14 stand.

15 I also want to update you on a

16 development dealing with organic eggs. I have

17 talked about this before. This is an

18 operation in California that was marketing

19 their eggs with this type of packaging from

20 this type of facility. They were taken to

21 court by an animal rights legal defense fund

22 organization because of the deceptive
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1 packaging. They won. That packaging is no

2 longer in use. So, we have animal welfare

3 organizations enforcing welfare standards and

4 many consumers of organics believe that this

5 image is really what they are getting.

6 Lastly, I want to mention our

7 extreme disappointment with the rule released

8 on the reauthorization of carrageenan by the

9 USDA. This Board appropriately attached a

10 restriction to that reauthorization in the

11 form of an annotation. And that annotation

12 prohibited the use of carrageenan in infant

13 formula. The sanitation was missing from the

14 final rule issued by the USDA. It is

15 outrageous. It is unacceptable. We are

16 looking into this and likely will be

17 challenging that.

18 The last little piece I want to

19 mention is our intention to develop a

20 scorecard going forward, just like we have --

21 here we go -- thank you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Will. We
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1 are getting some good ties on that stopping at

2 the light. I appreciate that. We have got

3 three right now. So, Michelle, we will have

4 to come up with some more prizes.

5 Questions for Will? All right.

6 Thank you very much.

7 Troy Aykan to the microphone and

8 Cheryl VanDyne on deck.

9 MR. AYKAN: Good afternoon. My

10 name is Troy Aykan. I am a food scientist and

11 a lawyer with Hain Celestial Group. I also

12 teach part-time food laws and regulations at

13 Catholic Pomona and Chapman Universities.

14 We wish to strongly support the

15 relisting of gellan gum on 205.605(a), non16 synthetics allowed. Our support for relisting

17 gellan gum is based on the following.

18 Essential for organic production. Gellan gum

19 is a necessary ingredient in many organic and

20 made with organic products. It is used in

21 various applications as a stabilizer or

22 thickener. It is especially useful to suspend
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1 water insoluble substances in liquid products.

2 We use it in a number of our non-dairy

3 beverages. It is unique characteristics are

4 not matched by other gums or substances on the

5 National List.

6 Safety. Gellan gum is classified

7 as grass or generally recognized as safe for

8 direct addition to food for human consumption.

9 This is codified in 21 CFR Section 172.665.

10 Meets all criteria for addition to

11 National List. Gellan gum meets all of the

12 criteria for allowed substances, as required

13 in CFR 205.600. It is essential for the

14 handling of organically-produced agricultural

15 products and there are no organic substitutes.

16 Gellan Gum is grass and its manufacture use

17 and disposal do not have adverse effects on

18 the environment and are done in a manner

19 compatible with organic handling.

20 We urge the Handling Committee and

21 the NOSB to keep gellan gum on 205.605(a).

22 Glycerin. We also wish to comment
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1 on the petition to remove glycerin from the

2 National List. We support the increased use

3 of organic ingredients in organic products.

4 However, there is some uncertainty about the

5 classification about non-organic glycerin

6 which was mentioned by previous presenters.

7 Is it agricultural or non-agricultural? If

8 non-agricultural, is it synthetic or non9 synthetic? This should be cleared up before

10 the Board takes any decisive action.

11 In addition, there are concerns

12 that organic glycerin may not be available in

13 sufficient quantity for the needs of organic

14 foods. Additionally, non-organic glycerin

15 should be allowed in natural flavors. Getting

16 flavored houses to use organic glycerin would

17 be a big problem. Organic companies do not

18 have the volumes to induce most flavor houses

19 to use organic glycerin. Glycerin should stay

20 on the National List with the requirement to

21 use organic glycerin if it is commercially

22 available.
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1 Thank you.

2 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Troy.

3 Questions? Zea.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

5 Could you give us a little more specifics

6 about what type of food processing situations

7 you would use gellan gum in over xanthan gum,

8 or guar gum, or one of the other gums, why it

9 is unique?

10 MR. AYKAN: Or carrageenan, yes.

11 I have consulted with our R and D staff. They

12 informed me that gellan gum has unique

13 properties that is not matched by other types

14 of gums. And in certain applications, such as

15 when we want to suspend water insoluble

16 substances, it is the substance to use.

17 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: You also

19 mentioned, and we have seen a couple of

20 written comments have also come in mentioning

21 gellan gum being used as a substitute for

22 carrageenan. Since that came up and was
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1 relisted during our meeting in Albuquerque,

2 have you seen an increased demand for gellan

3 gum as a replacement for carrageenan?

4 MR. AYKAN: From my experience, I

5 am not the person that formulates food

6 products but, as far as I know, the way I

7 understand it is that they have unique

8 properties and may not be -- I don't want to

9 cut it right there like it is impossible to

10 replace it but in certain applications, they

11 have unique properties to work without being

12 able to substitute.

13

14 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you,

15 Troy.

16 MR. AYKAN: Thank you.

17 CHAIR STONE: Cheryl VanDyne to

18 the microphone and Allison Walent on deck.

19 MS. VAN DYNE: Thank you. My name

20 is Cheryl VanDyne. I am the Director for

21 Global Regulatory Affairs for CP Kelco. I

22 want to thank you for your time today.
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1 The purpose of my presentation

2 today is to talk about gellan gum and reasons

3 for relisting and to address some of the

4 issues that came up in public comment.

5 First of all, gellan was listed at

6 205.605(a). and I know that in the Federal

7 Register they said focus on providing new

8 information. So, what I am doing is

9 addressing the information that you need to

10 have to support the comments that were made.

11 CP Kelco does note that certain

12 comments were made and we think that maybe the

13 basis of this might be misinformation or some

14 unsubstantiated concerns. So like I said, the

15 comments are going to support addressing the

16 relisting of high-acyl gellan gum as non17 synthetic and to talk about the public

18 comments and process and safety.

19 So, first of all, high-acyl gellan

20 gum is not harmful to human health or

21 environment. And we have information to

22 support this because it is approved as a food
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1 additive in the U.S. and globally. And these

2 approvals were based on extensive scientific

3 reviews of safety and toxicology studies.

4 Additionally, it is not an impact

5 to the environment, as noted in the EPA impact

6 report.

7 The USDA TAP report that was

8 prepared by the USDA NOP scientific evaluators

9 provided expert safety evaluation of gellan

10 gum for the NOSB Handling Committee and the

11 NOSB Board. And this was based on full

12 disclosure in the petition by CP Kelco. We

13 disclosed it fully to the NOP under CBI. And

14 this process allows us to do full disclosure

15 and protect the confidential business

16 information that protects our innovation but

17 doesn't compromise the safety review. And I

18 think that this is a very important point that

19 was raised in public comment, talking about

20 CBI. And representatives of CP Kelco provided

21 public testimony and answered questions as

22 they were asked.
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1 So, why high-acyl gellan gum?

2 Well, first of all, it is used in a wide

3 variety of the 95 percent organic -- certified

4 at 95 percent. And it is proof that the

5 ingredient is valuable to the organic

6 producers and consumers, based on its high

7 use.

8 It does have unique properties. I

9 think some of the questions you had today were

10 what is different about gellan and the others

11 and could they be substituted and I have a

12 couple of charts that I think will be helpful.

13 Kind of eye charts but if you take a look at

14 it, you can see that high-acyl gellan gum is

15 at the top. It goes into primarily beverages

16 and provides properties for chocolate milk

17 suspension. One of the -- across the list.

18 One of the things that is unique

19 about gellan is its ability to completely

20 suspend nutrients. And those nutrients are

21 then delivered in the beverage as part of the

22 beverage, rather than having to shake or
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1 whatever. It really does suspend.

2 So, the next chart is food

3 applications. Where is it used?

4 Confectionaries, water gels, and fruit bakery

5 fillings, et cetera.

6 High-acyl gellan gum is consistent

7 with organic handling.

8 The primary reason for the

9 decision to not list --

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Calvin?

11 SECRETARY WALKER: Could you

12 finish?

13 MS. VAN DYNE: I'm sorry. Any

14 questions?

15 SECRETARY WALKER: My comment was,

16 could you go ahead and complete what you were

17 trying to --

18 MS. VAN DYNE: Would you like me

19 to finish?

20 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

21 MS. VAN DYNE: Oh, okay, thank

22 you. Thank you very much.
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1 When we submitted the petition for

2 gellan gum, we put it with (b), 205.605(b).

3 As a synthetic, we didn't know any different

4 because that is where xanthan was.

5 And so during the second review,

6 and the NOSB kindly agreed to that, they took

7 a look at what it was that caused them to

8 think it was synthetic. And they actually

9 said, and there is some public comment, that

10 they didn't agree that gellan should be on the

11 (b) list. They believed it should be on the

12 (a) list.

13 So, during that review, they

14 looked at (a) versus (b) and determined that

15 the presence of IPA does not make gellan a

16 synthetic and that they recognized that

17 although low-acyl is naturally occurring, they

18 annotated it as high-acyl because they

19 realized that low-acyl can be reduced as a

20 process from deacetylation and, therefore,

21 only high-acyl would be allowable.

22 And, therefore, we are requesting
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1 the relist at 205.605(a), high-acyl gellan gum

2 as a non-synthetic.

3 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Thank

4 you. Harold?

5 MEMBER AUSTIN: Could you tell us

6 how much -- is the industry still utilizing

7 gellan gum substantially since the last time

8 it was reviewed? Has anything changed in the

9 use demand of the material? Is it still being

10 used about the same or is it increased or

11 decreased?

12 MS. VAN DYNE: Are you asking if

13 the use of gellan gum has reduced the use of

14 other materials or if the use of gellan gum

15 has increased?

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: Gellan gum,

17 itself, what is its current status?

18 MS. VAN DYNE: Yes, gellan gum has

19 increased.

20 CHAIR STONE: Great. Oh, Joe?

21 MEMBER DICKSON: So, in reviewing

22 the transcript from 2007, when the Board last
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1 reviewed this, it looked like there was a

2 really complex conversation about how each of

3 these materials is produced. Can you just

4 speak a little bit about what is different

5 about the processing of high-acyl versus low6 acyl gellan gum that would cause one to be

7 okay as a non-synthetic?

8 MS. VAN DYNE: Could you repeat?

9 What different -- I don't hear very well. I'm

10 sorry.

11 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes, that's okay.

12 Could you explain a little bit more about what

13 is different in the processing between high14 acyl and low-acyl gellan gum?

15 MS. VAN DYNE: Yes. I am not the

16 technical guru. I am the regulatory guru.

17 So, there is a processing called deacetylation

18 and it reduces the acyl groups. We have got

19 Mr. Green up there. So, it reduces the acyl

20 groups and creates, it is not a chemically

21 different, it is a little bit different

22 structure. It is still gellan gum but it is
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1 recognized as deacetylated. And, therefore,

2 it occurs naturally. The acyl groups break

3 down naturally but in industry, if you want,

4 you can change it to the deacetylated. And I

5 think the Board recognized that.

6 We produce the high-acyl for the

7 organic program certifiers.

8 Anything else?

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

10 And for the record, you are on the list for

11 getting the tee-shirt for stopping on time.

12 (Laughter.)

13 CHAIR STONE: Allison Walent to

14 the podium and Joy Rockwell on deck.

15 MS. WALENT: Good afternoon.

16 Thank you for your dedication and service for

17 organic agriculture.

18 My name is Allison Walent and I

19 represent CROPP Cooperative Organic

20 Valley/Organic Prairie, a farmer-owned

21 cooperative representing more than 1,800

22 farmer owners.
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1 We would like to express our

2 support of relisting high-acyl gellan gum as

3 a non-synthetic on 205.605(a). Please refer

4 to CP Kelco's the original petitioner's full

5 written comment for more information regarding

6 its non-synthetic classification.

7 Scientific studies by the Food and

8 Agricultural Organization, as well as its

9 grass certification have demonstrated that

10 gellan gum is safe for human consumption.

11 When CROPP finds it necessary to use

12 additional ingredients, we strictly limit the

13 use of approved non-synthetics or synthetics

14 to meet consumer expectations for the highest

15 quality organic products.

16 Since 2012, we have been

17 diligently working to remove carrageenan from

18 our products and have successfully done so

19 from our chocolate milk, egg nog, and soy

20 beverages.

21 Gellan gum, for its properties as

22 a stabilizer and thickening agent has proven
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1 to be the best alternative. It provides a

2 comparable alternative in body and flavor to

3 current consumer expectations for product

4 performance.

5 CROPP Cooperative Organic Valley

6 and Organic Prairie support the relisting of

7 gellan gum on 205.605(a). We appreciate the

8 opportunity to address the Board and thank you

9 for your service.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

11 Questions or comments? Joe.

12 MEMBER DICKSON: Are there

13 specific products you could not functionally

14 make without gellan gum and what are they?

15 And is it the ones that you listed where

16 gellan is an alternative to carrageenan or are

17 there other products where gellan gum is the

18 only viable ingredient?

19 MS. WALENT: Gellan gum is the

20 best alternative but I am not an R and D food

21 scientist. So, I would have to go back to my

22 R and D Department with that.
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1 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you.

2 MS. WALENT: Yes.

3 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you

4 very much.

5 Joy Rockwell to the podium and

6 Brad Rockwell on deck.

7 MS. ROCKWELL: Hello. My name is

8 Joy Rockwell and I am a consumer and a health

9 educator. And I have to say, I make my own

10 almond milk at home. I don't use -- there is

11 no additives to it. It is just almonds and

12 water and it is delicious. And I don't mind

13 shaking it up.

14 But the reason I am here, I really

15 believe in organic food. I am a member of the

16 Cornucopia Institute. I am here as a citizen

17 lobbyist. I work at two health organizations,

18 the Retreat Centers, one in California, one in

19 Austin. And the only thing we serve is USDA

20 organic food. And I have seen people with

21 Stage IV cancer reverse it. Prostate cancer

22 that has metastasized to the bone and
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1 endometrial cancer that has spread to the

2 lungs, people have reversed it with organic

3 food, produce, juices. So, organic is really

4 important and non-GMO.

5 Today, I will talk about sodium

6 carbonate peroxyhydrate. This material should

7 never have been added to the National List.

8 Now, it should be allowed to Sunset. Ideally,

9 the NOP will accept the advice of the NOSB and

10 return to the Sunset process that has been in

11 effect since 2005. If the new NOP policy

12 remains in effect, then we urge the Crops

13 Subcommittee to draft a proposal to remove

14 sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate from the

15 National List.

16 There are several reasons to

17 remove SCP. The product label states

18 bactericide, fungicide, algaecide. One

19 possible use for SCP is to control algae in

20 rice. But apparently, it will kill fungi and

21 bacteria along with algae. Use of a broad

22 spectrum biocide is not consistent with
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1 organic principles, which is to promote

2 ecological balance.

3 The Crops Subcommittee, in 2007,

4 voted unanimously against adding SCP to the

5 list, zero yes, five no. The committee agreed

6 that SCP was harmful to the environment, not

7 essential because alternatives are available,

8 and not consistent with organic production and

9 handling. The checklist for SCP noted that it

10 did not satisfy evaluation criteria 1, 2, or

11 3. The checklist also noted that SCP does not

12 any OFPA categories. For these reasons, SCP

13 should never have been allowed in organic

14 production in the first place.

15 The Crops Subcommittee should

16 reconsider this information but they also need

17 to consider the possible use of SCP for

18 aquatic plants and hydroponic systems. Those

19 uses were not evaluated in 2007 because the

20 NOSB recommended that hydroponics should be

21 prohibited. Recently, the NOP decided that

22 crop aquaculture and hydroponics are allowed,
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1 which means that all the crops materials must

2 be reevaluated for those uses.

3 Lastly, I hope that the USDA

4 organic regulations can be as strong and well5 respected as those in other countries. The

6 United States should lead the way.

7 International standards do not allow SCP in

8 crop production. We should not allow it here.

9 If you have questions about this

10 testimony, I encourage you to speak with one

11 of Cornucopia staff members. They are here

12 today.

13 And I want to thank you, NOSB

14 members, for your work in keeping organics

15 strong. And remember what Hippocrates said:

16 Let food be thy medicine. And I have seen so

17 many people here through the years, hundreds

18 of thousands of people the past 35 years have

19 gone to these institutions and organics are so

20 important for our health and well-being. So,

21 thank you so much for the work that you do.

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. And
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1 thank you for your support or organic food and

2 your work. We appreciate that very much.

3 MS. ROCKWELL: It so important,

4 yes.

5 CHAIR STONE: Thank you.

6 MS. ROCKWELL: Thank you.

7 CHAIR STONE: Brad Rockwell and

8 Lisa Stokke on deck.

9 MR. ROCKWELL: Hello. My name is

10 Brad Rockwell. I am 61 years old and have

11 been eating vegetarian organic foods for about

12 40 years. I depend on USDA organic

13 certification program. I am also an attorney

14 and I specialize in environmental law.

15 I am a member of the Cornucopia

16 Institute and am here as a member because I

17 volunteered to help present testimony because

18 I want to ensure the integrity of organic

19 food.

20 Today, I will talk about aqueous

21 potassium silicate and sulfurous acid, which

22 are currently up for Sunset review.
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1 Sulfurous acid is not allowed in

2 Canada, Japan, or Europe. Aqueous potassium

3 silicate, or APS, is not allowed, according to

4 standards of Canada, Japan, Europe, IFOAM or

5 Kodex. Why are these materials allowed in the

6 United States? Please vote to remove them

7 from the National List.

8 Ideally, to ensure consumer trust

9 and organic integrity, I encourage the USDA to

10 reinstate the democratic Sunset process that

11 have been used since 2005. If that does not

12 happen, I encourage the Crops Subcommittee to

13 write proposals to remove these materials

14 during Sunset review.

15 Aqueous potassium silicate should

16 never have been added to the National List.

17 In the 2003 TAP review for APS, two of the

18 three reviewers felt that APS should be

19 prohibited because of the highly soluble

20 synthetic fertilizers. The Crops

21 Subcommittee, in 2007, voted that APS should

22 not be allowed as an insecticide for disease
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1 control or for hydroponic use. Despite this,

2 the full Board approved APS, without realizing

3 that the NOP would later allow its use in

4 aquaculture and hydroponics.

5 The NOSB recommended that

6 hydroponics should not be considered organic,

7 yet the NOP disregarded that recommendation

8 and stated that organic hydroponic is allowed.

9 When the NOP chose to allow hydroponic

10 production allowed the use of APS in a way

11 that was not intended by the Board.

12 Similarly, the NOP explicitly allowed crop

13 materials to be used for plant aquaculture

14 without input from the NOSB.

15 Since these uses were not

16 evaluated by the NOSB, I hope that these

17 materials will now be reevaluated.

18 In conclusion, we request that the

19 original democratic Sunset review be

20 reinstated. If the new NOP policy is

21 retained, then the Cornucopia Institute

22 recommends the Crops Subcommittee must write
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1 proposals to de-list these two materials.

2 If you have questions about the

3 subject of my testimony, I encourage you to

4 speak with one of the Cornucopia staff members

5 present here today.

6 Thank you to you all for the work

7 that you have done over the years and for

8 keeping organics strong. And thank you for

9 allowing me to present testimony here today.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

11 Thank you for your time.

12 Lisa Stokke to the podium and Beth

13 Unger is on deck.

14 MS. STOKKE: Thank you and it is

15 Lisa Stokke.

16 CHAIR STONE: Stokke. Thank you.

17 Welcome.

18 MS. STOKKE: Thank you.

19 Before I begin my comments, I just

20 want to say thank you to this volunteer board.

21 I appreciate your service. Thank you.

22 Good afternoon. My name is Lisa
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1 Stokke and I am Co-founder of Food Democracy

2 Now. We are a grassroots organization based

3 in Iowa dedicated to education and advocacy

4 for sustainable agriculture, organics, and

5 family farmers. Today, I stand before you as

6 an organic consumer for 25 years, a mother,

7 citizen, and a representative of the community

8 of Food Democracy Now, which is over 700,000

9 people strong and includes organic farmers and

10 organic consumers.

11 I am also a board member of

12 OSGATA, Organic Seed Growers and Trade

13 Association, which is a national membership

14 organization representing certified organic

15 farmers, seed growers, and seed companies.

16 I have to say I am offering these

17 comments under protest, as Food Democracy Now

18 exists to advocate for the interests of the

19 organic community and organic family farmers

20 cannot condone in good conscious the removal

21 of the statutory rights and responsibilities

22 of the NOSB. The NOSB was established by
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1 Congress as an independent citizen oversight

2 board under the authority of the Organic Foods

3 Protection Act of 1990. The OFPA represents

4 the framework by which the organic community

5 entered into partnership with the USDA in

6 regulating the organic sector.

7 Yesterday, Food Democracy Now sent

8 a call to action to our community to which

9 over 30,000 people have responded in 24 hours

10 by signing a petition to Secretary Vilsack,

11 asking him to rethink the proposed changes to

12 the NOP rules and protect organic integrity.

13 I echo the words of NOSB member

14 Jay Feldman, who yesterday expressed a deep

15 concern that many in the organic community

16 share, with an apparent change in direction of

17 the NOP. Namely, when he stated that the

18 needs of the NOSB is primarily responding --

19 the needs that they are responding to are

20 primarily growth-oriented. The hope and

21 expectation is that the NOSB serve as an

22 advocate for the organic community and act in
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1 the spirit of cooperation and partnership.

2 Sadly, organic is a victim of its

3 own success. As more people have woken up to

4 the adverse health and environmental impacts

5 that are associated and caused by eating food

6 from the industrial foods system, more are

7 turning to organic as a safe haven. The

8 people have enjoyed and earned trust in

9 organic farmers and producers.

10 Trust was waned in recent years,

11 however, particularly because of the USDA's

12 failure to properly stand up for organic

13 principles. The prevailing hope and

14 expectation of organic consumers has been of

15 purity and integrity. Organic is more than

16 simply a label.

17 I am an individual who made a

18 commitment to organic. I have consistently,

19 for over 20 years, driven two hours one way to

20 source organic food that I trust to feed my

21 four children. I have always been grateful

22 that organic is available, the chemical and
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1 genetically engineered alternative being

2 unthinkable.

3 The Titanic of our food system is

4 sinking and organic is a lifeboat for parents

5 and children suffering from food allergies and

6 to individuals whose food is literally making

7 them sick. We cannot sink the lifeboat.

8 Aside from individual health,

9 people buy and remain committed to organic, as

10 it creates community and a vibrant society,

11 through fostering human health, the support of

12 small family farmers, and the conservation of

13 healthy soil and pure seed.

14 I close by reiterating the support

15 of organic integrity by millions of

16 individuals. It is our hope that the NOP and

17 the USDA will work in cooperation with the

18 NOSB as a trusted partner representative of

19 the organic community. We have respected the

20 action of the USDA to regulate but not to

21 take. As a community, we will protect organic

22 integrity.
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1 Perfect. Thank you.

2 (Applause.)

3 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Thank

4 you very much.

5 Okay, Beth, before you get

6 started, then we have Zareb Herman on deck,

7 Board Members, we have five presentations

8 left, just so you can sort of pace yourself

9 and know where we are.

10 Beth, welcome.

11 MS. UNGER: Thank you very much.

12 It is good to be here and thank you all for

13 your great service and to the NOP for the

14 improvements we have seen over the past four

15 years. We appreciate your willingness to work

16 together.

17 I am Beth Unger. I am

18 certification manager at CROPP Cooperative,

19 marketing products through Organic Valley and

20 Organic Prairie brands. And I would like to

21 talk about the seed purity report.

22 The Materials Committee and the
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1 former GMO Ad Hoc Committee put out a

2 beautiful document. It was such nice work and

3 I really appreciate what you did. I think my

4 favorite part of that document was in the very

5 beginning, when you stated that one of your

6 conclusions said a seed purity standard can be

7 consistent with process-based standards. We

8 agree very much so. We did respond to that

9 document in a point-by-point in our written

10 comments. I don't want to go over that with

11 you today because I am sure you all read that

12 with great interest.

13 So, I just wanted to bring up a

14 few points that can't be emphasized enough.

15 And first of all is that when seed is

16 contaminated, the crops that come from that

17 seed will be contaminated. There is no

18 question about it. Practices that the farmers

19 can employ such as delayed planting, or buffer

20 zones, or whatever can certainly mitigate the

21 risk of contamination but contaminated seed

22 equals contaminated crop.
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1 And proliferation of genetically

2 engineered crops is frightening. It is the

3 USDA that is allowing the proliferation of

4 genetically modified crops in this country.

5 To expect the USDA to come back with a

6 polluter pays, it is a great idea. I would

7 love to see that idea get traction.

8 For the organic community, I

9 believe we have a very serious duty here and

10 that duty is to preserve clean seed for now

11 and future generations. It is the right thing

12 to do. We cannot let that go.

13 And so I am here to request that

14 the NOP and the NOSB get together a Task Force

15 of the real experts in this field, the organic

16 seed growers, other seed growers. Put them

17 together and come up with a solution that is

18 something more than polluter pays.

19 Thank you very much for your

20 service. I appreciate it.

21 (Applause.)

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Beth.
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1 Thank you for your work as well. Thank you

2 very much.

3 Zareb to the podium and Peggy

4 Miars on deck.

5 MR. HERMAN: Good afternoon. My

6 name is Zareb Herman and I am a food scientist

7 with the Hain Celestial Group, one of the

8 largest organic handlers in the world.

9 We appreciate the work of the

10 Materials Subcommittee but we strongly

11 disagree with the recommendation to eliminate

12 confidential business information or CBI from

13 petitions.

14 I work for a manufacturer and

15 manufacturers are businesses. To stay in

16 business, they must protect their trade

17 secrets and proprietary processes from

18 competitors. It is quite feasible to allow

19 CBI and still obtain sufficient information

20 from the petitioner to make decisions

21 concerning the classification of a material

22 and its suitability for use in organic
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1 production or handling.

2 To accomplish this, technical

3 review contractors and the NOSB should be

4 authorized to work closely with each

5 petitioner to obtain the necessary information

6 without disclosing information that is

7 confidential to the business. We all know

8 that it has become extremely difficult to get

9 any petition approved to add a material to the

10 National List.

11 I would like to share an

12 experience I had at the Natural Products Expo

13 in Anaheim. I was speaking with another

14 organic foods manufacturer when a man

15 approached us. The man produced conventional

16 foods but he was interested in making organic

17 and it would be a new category of organic

18 foods. However, his manufacturing process

19 required a small amount of a benign but

20 synthetic ingredient that is not on the

21 National List. He asked about the petition

22 process and we told him that it would take
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1 years and require a fair amount of money to

2 hire someone to write the petition.

3 Then he asked about the chances of

4 getting the petition approved. And we had to

5 be honest with him that the chances were very

6 slim. So, he dropped it and we lost the

7 opportunity for a new category of organic

8 products that would utilize potentially

9 millions of pounds of organic ingredients.

10 And we also lost the new organic acreage that

11 would lead to less pesticides, less

12 herbicides, and fertilizers, and less erosion

13 of topsoil. This is sad because we need more

14 organic acreage, not less.

15 Manufacturers are already

16 reluctant to submit petitions. This

17 recommendation to eliminate confidential

18 business information will further deter

19 manufacturers from even trying. Some

20 petitions will not require CBI but some will.

21 We urge the NOSB to exercise good judgment and

22 go with the Subcommittee's Recommendation 2,
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1 which allows confidential business information

2 in petitions.

3 In closing, I thank the Board for

4 their valuable service. And I wish to thank

5 Miles McEvoy and his entire staff at NOP. I

6 have always found them to be highly

7 professional, impartial and dedicated to doing

8 what is best for organic foods and the entire

9 organic community.

10 Thank you.

11 (Applause.)

12 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Any

13 questions? Thank you very much.

14 Peggy Miars to the podium and

15 Marty Mesh on deck.

16 MS. MIARS: Good afternoon. My

17 name is Peggy Miars and I am the Executive

18 Director of OMRI, the Organic Materials Review

19 Institute and I have been an organic consumer

20 for nearly 30 years.

21 I want to first thank each NOSB

22 member and the NOP staff for your service.
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1 Yesterday, I had literally one minute of

2 comments regarding confidential business

3 information in petitions. But after listening

4 to the proceedings yesterday and reading some

5 of the written comments that I hadn't yet

6 read, last night I expanded my comments.

7 Well first, OMRI agrees with the

8 proposal to eliminate the provision for

9 confidential business information in

10 petitions. Only generic materials should be

11 petitioned for evaluation by the NOSB.

12 Formulated products should be submitted to a

13 certifier or a material review organization

14 for evaluation. Therefore, it makes sense

15 that confidential business information is

16 required for a brand name product review but

17 not for a petition material being reviewed by

18 the NOSB.

19 Personally, I am glad to see that

20 the procedures for requesting technical

21 reports continues to be made independent of

22 the availability of funds. And if there is a
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1 lack of funding to secure a TR, the review of

2 the materials should be put on hold. That

3 ensures that substances on the National List

4 receive the appropriate evaluation that

5 stakeholders expect. But if you do find that

6 you must go forward without a TR, I caution

7 you to proceed very carefully because you may

8 not have the current and full information.

9 Now for my additional comments,

10 which are on the Sound and Sensible

11 Initiative. I appreciated the written

12 comments from the Organic Product Wholesalers

13 Coalition suggesting centralizing a material

14 review system through OMRI. I also

15 appreciated the National Organic Coalition's

16 recommendations to standardize the material

17 review system's use by ACAs, to emphasize

18 policies that encourage material suppliers to

19 submit their products to OMRI for review, for

20 operators to use OMRI-listed materials in

21 order to move toward a centralized review

22 system, and to expand the scope of NOP's
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1 accreditation to include MROs that are not

2 ACAs.

3 I couldn't agree more and,

4 frankly, I couldn't have written a better

5 promotions for OMRI. So thank you, Liana,

6 wherever you are.

7 So, I encourage all of us to think

8 creatively to find a better way to serve the

9 organic operators when it comes to material

10 review. After all, growers, handlers, and

11 processors are benefactors or possibly victims

12 of material review decisions. As a non-profit

13 organization, OMRI's main motivation is our

14 mission, rather than money. If the NOP

15 doesn't have funding for such a material

16 review improvement project, perhaps OMRI and

17 other non-profits could seek grant funding to

18 help with this.

19 I am in the middle of reading a

20 book called Get There Early: Sensing the

21 Future to Compete in the Present. And the

22 biggest takeaway for me, halfway through this
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1 book, is that many of us learn to be problem

2 solvers where there must be one right answer,

3 where there is one winner and possibly

4 multiple losers but in today's world, the

5 volatility, uncertainty, complexity and

6 ambiguity, we face many more dilemmas than

7 problems.

8 Now dilemmas are problems that

9 won't go away, problems that have no right or

10 wrong or even a solution. Instead, it is

11 often possible to come up with win-win

12 strategies where there is more than one

13 winner.

14 So, I don't have the answers here

15 today but I am willing to participate in a

16 discussion about improving the material review

17 process and how OMRI can provide support and

18 services for the organic community.

19 So in closing, I will pose a

20 question and ask do we need a working group to

21 address this dilemma of consistency and

22 transparency in material review.
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1 And in my remaining seconds, I

2 will just comment that a year ago I came right

3 after John Ashby's comments, where he gave an

4 eloquent poem. And today, I understand I am

5 right before Marty Mesh and John Ashby. So,

6 the entertainment begins when I am done here.

7 Thank you.

8 (Laughter.)

9 CHAIR STONE: Very good! Pretty

10 good!

11 (Applause.)

12 CHAIR STONE: Cheers to you!

13 Great. Thank you.

14 Questions for Peggy? And I know

15 the ACA training there is a lot of discussion

16 about how to standardize and get some more

17 uniformity around this MRO. So, thank you for

18 working on it in the bigger picture, not in a

19 self-serving way. So, thank you.

20 MS. MIARS: Thank you.

21 CHAIR STONE: And your name is on

22 the mug list.
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1 MS. MIARS: All right!

2 CHAIR STONE: Okay, Marty, you are

3 up and John will close it out.

4 MR. MESH: Tell me when, because I

5 am in it for the tee-shirt.

6 CHAIR STONE: When.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MR. MESH: My name is still Marty

9 Mesh. I am still the Executive Director of

10 Florida Certified Organic Growers and

11 Consumers, a non-profit organization which

12 operates a certification program called

13 Quality Certification Services, as well other

14 types of education and foods systems programs.

15 I started growing organically in

16 1972 on a larger scale in 1976 as part of

17 Bellevue Gardens Organic Farm. As I watched,

18 listen, and feel the evolution of our

19 community, I am increasingly frustrated in how

20 we frame what I thought was our common goal of

21 furthering organic agriculture. That is a way

22 to protect our natural resources, our precious
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1 surface and groundwater, the biodiversity of

2 nature, and to affect farmers' and workers'

3 health by not being exposed to the many

4 poisons that have cut short farmer friends of

5 mine in agriculture and their lives, and

6 workers and farmers I don't know but I know

7 they left behind children without a

8 functioning or alive mother or father.

9 Then there is the health of folks

10 eating the produce food and products derived

11 from organic agriculture. The intent, in the

12 words of Kathleen Merrigan, have been

13 occasionally tossed around and one quote I

14 vividly remember is, "don't let the perfect be

15 the enemy of the good" or I might say, very

16 good, especially when I think of where we were

17 not so many years ago.

18 It seems to me that here in public

19 comment that I need to state my thanks to

20 members of this Board for all the time,

21 energy, and work you all have put in. And

22 thank you and acknowledgment to the USDA and
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1 Mark for institutionalizing organic further

2 within the context of the USDA and the NOP,

3 under Miles' leadership. Clearly, I do not

4 agree with every decision or action that comes

5 out of the National Organic Program or the

6 National Organic Standards Board. Just to

7 repeat, clearly, I don't agree with every

8 decision that comes out of the NOP or the

9 NOSB. However, listening to Miles'

10 presentation, listening to what the Program

11 has accomplished to the presentation on the

12 challenges of getting stuff through the

13 Federal Register process should have given

14 everyone in this room something for

15 consideration on how to move ahead, versus

16 just how to take a stance on no, no, no.

17 Because of the Program's work,

18 certifiers are much clearer about interpreting

19 standards, implementing standards verification

20 consistently, and that should relate to

21 consumer confidence.

22 The work that the Program has done
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1 and is doing is a long way from where we were.

2 But no one seems to know that. We don't put

3 that out on social media and all that other

4 kind of stuff.

5 Certifiers are undergoing rigorous

6 oversight and are still required to submit

7 corrective actions of any shortcomings that

8 they find in their operation -- do I get

9 three minutes or four? Phew. Okay. -- to

10 change and improve their system as needed. As

11 Jessica stated: "Why am I here?" To urge a

12 more civil discourse in an open mind and heart

13 in hearing others in the hopeful reaffirmation

14 that if, collectively, we view the widespread

15 adoption of organic agriculture practices as

16 beneficial to helping solve some of the

17 pressing issues of our time in leaving the

18 planet in a healthier state for not only our

19 children but my grandchildren who was born

20 Sunday morning before I came here, --

21 (Applause.)

22 MR. MESH: -- that we need to with
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1 a new and revigorated attitude for generations

2 to come.

3 So with that, I am open to taking

4 any questions and I am going to keep talking

5 until we get to exactly four minutes because

6 I am in it for the tee-shirt. So, I read it

7 too fast and I am just going to stop in

8 another two seconds -- 20 seconds? Shit!

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. MESH: I want credit for that

11 time that I went over or something like that.

12 This will even it out. Thank you very much.

13 (Applause.)

14 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Marty.

15 Marty, we gave a tee-shirt yesterday for a

16 heartfelt. You get it for style points.

17 Okay?

18 John, welcome and close out the

19 oral statements.

20 MR. ASHBY: Thank you. I'm John

21 Ashby. And there once was a man from

22 Nantucket -- no! No, that was the OMRI dinner
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1 after a whole bunch of wine.

2 (Laughter.)

3 MR. ASHBY: I probably better

4 confess at the outset, despite what some

5 people might think of me from my comments,

6 that I am actually not an American style

7 democracy-hating communist troublemaker.

8 Troublemaker, I can't really completely get

9 rid of that one.

10 But anyway, I have been doing this

11 organic stuff in different ways for over 20

12 years. For some reason, people have elected

13 formerly five times to different leadership

14 positions. Sometimes they are the same one.

15 If I was an American style democracy-hating

16 communist, it would have come out by now. But

17 it gets worse. If I had somebody who could

18 help me grow organics who was an American

19 style democracy-hating communist, welcome.

20 Growth of organics is too important.

21 One of the little things I try to

22 do and I would like to encourage people to do,
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1 is I always ask is this going to help

2 organics, the big picture of organics? Is

3 this going to help organics or is this going

4 to mangle it? And what I think gets glossed

5 over at these meetings all too often is that

6 there is two sides to this growing organics.

7 Buying it. People want to buy it. They

8 should. It's great, despite what one might be

9 able to take away from some of these meetings.

10 Again, ask is this helping to grow or mangle.

11 But also important is making it. People need

12 to be able to make it.

13 I got an email today from a really

14 famous Midwest organic farmer who is writing

15 about how he just had to go to the dark side

16 because things were so unpredictable he had to

17 go to some conventional farming. He didn't

18 like it. He has to do it. I would like that

19 to stop.

20 Another confession, a bad one,

21 this is worse than communist. I am an actual

22 card-carrying certified food scientist. There
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1 is only about 1,500 or so of us in the world.

2 This includes the science, the making, the

3 health and nutrition, the food safety. You

4 really have got to know all this stuff. This

5 means I have a pretty good handle on the

6 issues of making the food, while at the same

7 time understanding the balance with organic

8 rules and principles. Glycerin is a great

9 example. The multiply mentioned food safety

10 requirements, these are not an option. These

11 are not something you have a choice about,

12 period. It is not an option.

13 And if you take glycerin away, you

14 are going to damage a lot of organic food

15 production. If you want to do that, that is

16 fine. You have your right to your opinion but

17 you can't ignore the outcome of hurting a part

18 of the organic food industry. It is a

19 mistake, in my view. A huge generic solution

20 to this issue is put some energy to an OFPA

21 change to just add commercial availability to

22 605.
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1 It gets even worse. Here it

2 comes. The Sunset policy is not the end of

3 the world.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. ASHBY: Way worse, it is a

6 good thing that more deliberation is required

7 before you mess with organic food production.

8 Even this does not make me a communist

9 American democracy-hating troublemaker. Is

10 this going to help or mangle organics?

11 And I saved until the end, in case

12 I didn't have time, thanks to both the NOSB

13 and the NOP for all the work that you do.

14 Let's just really remember how much we are all

15 in this together and we have got a lot of

16 things stacked up against us. So, let's

17 remember we are in this together.

18 CHAIR STONE: Well, I don't know

19 if that is in the mug category or the tee20 shirt but we will vote on it later. Okay?

21 Thank you very much for those

22 comments. Very good. Questions for John?
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1 Okay, thank you.

2 (Applause.)

3 CHAIR STONE: Thanks to everyone.

4 We joked about the tee-shirts and

5 the mugs but really we are not joking because

6 the respect that we give for the time, to give

7 each other time, to give us have time to ask

8 questions, we are going to get -- so the tee9 shirt list is Harriet, Jessica, Will, Cheryl,

10 and Marty. And the mug is Liana and Peggy.

11 So, Michelle will figure out how

12 to get those to you because we didn't bring

13 that many and we really greatly appreciate

14 that respect.

15 So, we are going to take a 15-

16 minute break and we will start the Crops

17 Subcommittee promptly at 3:45. Thank you all.

18 (Whereupon, the foregoing meeting

19 went off the record at 3:29 p.m.

20 and went back on the record at

21 3:45 p.m.)

22 CHAIR STONE: Okay, we're going to
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1 move into the Crops Subcommittee. And this is

2 going to be the trial run for the 2015 or the

3 new Sunset process. So, it is important that

4 we are thorough in our deliberations here. We

5 want to get it -- so, yes. It feels really

6 loud right here.

7 So, if you all could take your

8 seats in the back. Calvin.

9 So, this part of the Program was

10 scheduled to start at 3:00. It is 3:45, so it

11 looks like we will be going to 6:00 or so,

12 just for gauging your time slots here.

13 So, with this, Zea, I guess, if

14 you want to be sort of generic -- oh, yes.

15 You all do want to pay attention to this. You

16 may not being paying attention to me, but this

17 is something you ought to pay attention to.

18 Okay, let it roll, whoever has the

19 --

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

21 Well, as Marty said, we deal with a lot of

22 very complex and contentious topics here and
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1 sometimes we lose sight of what we are really

2 all doing here and what our common goals are.

3 And so, I thought we would take a little bit

4 of time, three minutes or so to reflect on

5 what really brought us all here, which is the

6 dangers of pesticides. So, we are going to

7 show three minutes of a five minute video to

8 remind us all about the dangers of pesticides.

9 And if you don't have a sense of humor, you

10 might as well leave the room now for three

11 minutes.

12 Thank you. Go ahead, Michelle.

13 (Whereas, a video was played from

14 3:47 p.m. to 3:53 p.m.)

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, I know we

16 left you in suspense but believe me, Mickey in

17 1935, which that is an original clip from,

18 does come back live another day. And it is

19 our duty, I think, to protect his garden in

20 the future from the ravages of pesticides.

21 Okay. Without further ado, we

22 have a number of topics here for the Crops
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1 Committee and we are going to take them in

2 order as they appear on the agenda. And we

3 are going to run this with a presentation from

4 each key point person who worked on each

5 material, starting out with Lisa Brines from

6 the Department, giving us the background on

7 each material and then a summary of the public

8 comments and then followed by Board

9 discussion.

10 So, streptomycin is the first

11 thing up. And so, Lisa, if you will take us

12 away.

13 DR. BRINES: Sure, thank you. The

14 petition for streptomycin was submitted on

15 February 26, 2013. It was a joint submission

16 by four different parties, the Washington

17 State Horticultural Association, the

18 California Pear Advisory Board, the U.S. Apple

19 Association and Michigan State Horticultural

20 Society.

21 The material is currently listed

22 at Section 205.601 of the National List under
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1 synthetic substances allowed for use in

2 organic crop production. Paragraph (i) as

3 plant disease control, number 11, streptomycin

4 for fire blight control in apples and pears

5 only until October 21, 2014.

6 The most recent technical

7 evaluation report for this substance was

8 completed in 2011 and there are additional

9 technical reports that predate that one.

10 This particular petition was also

11 on the agenda for the fall 2013 meeting that

12 was canceled. So, there is both a

13 Subcommittee proposal from the fall meeting

14 and an updated one for this meeting.

15 Thanks.

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay, the

17 difference between the petition -- the

18 proposal that the Crops Subcommittee had

19 brought forward for the Louisville meeting

20 versus this one, there was one change based

21 off of comments from the petitioner. We added

22 -- the petitioner Blossom Protect, they had
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1 commentary on a position, comments that the

2 proposal had stated. So, we added the

3 inclusion under the points of fire blight

4 control, points of agreement and disagreement.

5 I think it is on page 2. We added, under

6 experience of pear growers, especially in the

7 2013 season, has shown that Blossom Protect

8 has not worked well in the Pacific Northwest

9 for California. After that we added in

10 parentheses we added the manufacturer of

11 Blossom Protect does not agree with this

12 statement and has voiced their disagreement

13 during the written public comment period prior

14 to the canceled fall 2013 NOSB meeting. So,

15 we did include that statement to address that

16 concern.

17 Going through the list of public

18 comments, we had two groups of commentary that

19 we needed to take and look at. We had to go

20 back and revisit the written public comments

21 that were submitted for the fall presentation

22 -- the canceled fall meeting, along with the
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1 comments received for the spring.

2 A quick, just a quick breakdown of

3 that, we had for the canceled meeting in the

4 fall, we had ten written comments in support

5 of the majority position from research, CCOF,

6 the OTA, UNFI, Pennsylvania Certified Organic.

7 We had two comments, one from the Organic Tree

8 Fruit Association that was taking more of a

9 centralist position, another one from Organic

10 Produce Wholesalers that was taking a neutral

11 position. And then one from Westbridge, the

12 manufacturer of Blossom Protect that also took

13 a neutral position, neither supporting or not

14 supporting the position -- the proposal as

15 submitted.

16 Okay, for the fall meeting, those

17 that were not in support of the extension, we

18 had 314 specific comments that were against

19 the majority position. There were three large

20 petitions that were signed and we had several

21 groups and organizations that also submitted

22 comments beyond pesticides, not Cornucopia to
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1 name a couple of them.

2 For the spring public comment

3 period, we had six written comments that were

4 submitted that were in favor: PCO, the

5 California Apple Commission, OTA, plus Steve

6 Chinchilio of River Bend Orchards, an organic

7 grower in California, Bill Denevan, who also

8 gave an oral presentation today as a grower

9 representative for Viva Tierra and he is also

10 a consultant, as he said today.

11 We supported a neutral position,

12 Organic Produce Wholesalers Association. They

13 believe that the NOSB should not take away

14 production tools before development of viable

15 workable alternatives, lest we risk crippling

16 the important segments of the organic industry

17 that can take years to rebuild. But they did

18 not support either the majority or the

19 minority position on this proposal.

20 Not supporting either position,

21 again, as I said, Westbridge, the manufacturer

22 of Blossom Protect. Also not in favor of the
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1 proposal, we had 424 individual comments that

2 were submitted. Organic Consumers Association

3 submitted a petition of 39,851 signatures.

4 Food and Water Watch submitted a petition of

5 12,427 signatures on it that were opposed.

6 Again, we had several groups or

7 associations, Cornucopia, Beyond Pesticides,

8 NOC, the Infectious Disease Society of

9 America, the Center for Food Safety, just

10 saying a few of those that were submitting

11 commentary.

12 In support of the Subcommittee's

13 decision to extend this, what the proposal was

14 to extend streptomycin, the expiration date

15 from October 21, 2014 to replace it with a new

16 expiration date of October 21, 2017 for both

17 apples and pears.

18 The classification motion, that

19 would stay static because it was already

20 classified and list on the National List. The

21 motion as it reads on the proposal itself is

22 a motion to remove the existing expiration
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1 date of October 21, 2014 for streptomycin at

2 205.601(i)(11) and replace it with an

3 expiration date of October 21, 12017, so that

4 the listing reads: (11) Streptomycin for fire

5 blight control in apples and pears only until

6 October 21, 2017. That was moved forward on

7 a five yes, three no out of the Crops

8 Committee to the full Board review today.

9 We have an additional motion, a

10 resolution that read the National Organic

11 Standards Board is committed to phase out of

12 this material. Between now and the expiration

13 date, the Board urges growers and certifiers

14 to include in organic systems plans and annual

15 increase in the extent and/or number of

16 alternative practices and materials that are

17 trialed for controlling fire blight. In

18 addition, the Board strongly advocates to the

19 USDA a high priority for increased support for

20 research into these alternatives practices and

21 materials.

22 Part of the rationale for the
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1 majority position of the Crops Subcommittee

2 was that going through the listing, listening

3 to commentary and the materials that we have

4 had and the petition itself, that the organic

5 stakeholders that were looking for an

6 extension felt that the alternatives have not

7 been given adequate time to complete the

8 trials to get into the hands of the growers,

9 the people that are actually going to use

10 those materials and work them into their day

11 to day production practices, so that they

12 could figure out exactly how and properly to

13 use those materials in an effective manner.

14 They feel that having an expiration date of

15 2014 still does not allow them adequate time

16 to take those materials, get them into their

17 systems, and implement an organic systems plan

18 approach that would be viable to their

19 business model as it exists today to prevent

20 the fire blight disease and the bacteria from

21 damaging their crops.

22 Also, these growers have had
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1 tremendous time, energy, and expense in

2 investment in these crops. As we heard from

3 one of the oral commenters today, it takes

4 years and years to develop these ranches.

5 Once fire blight gets established, it takes an

6 extended period of time to figure out how to

7 deal with it, even using the existing tools.

8 So, allowing more time for more research and

9 development of the materials, the potential

10 replacement materials, seemed like it was the

11 right thing.

12 Allow science to run its course

13 and allow the research and the research

14 dollars that are already being expended and

15 spent to take and exert the value that they

16 present to those stakeholders. We are

17 spending the money. They are spending the

18 money. Allow them the time to complete those

19 studies and those trial.

20 And then concern for the impact on

21 additional stakeholders, what that might have

22 as far as volume of crop production, would
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1 there be a reduction to those that have built

2 their businesses from a handling and sales

3 standpoint, what impact would the loss of

4 streptomycin have. So, we looked at that as

5 well.

6 So, we felt that a slight

7 extension to 2017 was a reasonable approach to

8 allow these necessary steps to take place and

9 allow this to move forward. And that is why

10 we moved this proposal forward as we have

11 done.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thanks, Harold.

13 We will have discussion now. But I think on

14 this and most all of our proposals, unless we

15 think there is unanimousness, we will postpone

16 voting until tomorrow. Does that seem

17 appropriate? Because we are running so late

18 the voting takes time -- Friday. Sorry. To

19 the end of the meeting when we have reserved

20 for voting.

21 So, Mac, are you going to call on

22 people for the discussion?
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1 CHAIR STONE: Sure. Is there

2 discussion, questions from other Board

3 members, other Crops Committee members? I

4 know there is a minority opinion that we will

5 get to as well.

6 Calvin.

7 SECRETARY WALKER: My question is

8 the October 21, 2017, is this the drop-dead

9 date, regardless, no matter what?

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: That is what we

11 would like it to be. That is what we would

12 say that it would be. And I mean that is how

13 the proposal that we have moved forward is,

14 Calvin.

15 I don't think the industry would

16 look to try to repetition for an extension.

17 The 2017 would allow time for the existing

18 trials research that is ongoing to be

19 completed. Additional alternative materials

20 to get through the registration course of

21 action so that it is there in the hands of the

22 handlers -- not the handlers but the growers
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1 and those stakeholders. So, it would give

2 them adequate time for that to take place.

3 CHAIR STONE: Other questions from

4 the Board? Jay.

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, I don't

6 know if the Board has read the minority

7 position thoroughly. I think we did get kudos

8 for putting together a document that was more

9 readable than the previous document and that,

10 as a Committee, we acknowledged what the key

11 issues were and then provided sort of a

12 point/counterpoint, so that people could see

13 that we have addressed each other's issues

14 from a minority and majority standpoint.

15 So, the other thing that people

16 will remember is that we had a speaker back at

17 the Portland meeting a year ago, I guess, from

18 the Infectious Disease Society of America,

19 which submitted formal comments this time and

20 Dr. Morris also submitted comments again in

21 support of the minority position.

22 The key, you know obviously, there
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1 are issues of production, which are important

2 issues. And you know if you go back in the

3 history of the NOSB, this is not a new issue.

4 We have been or the Board, previous Boards

5 have been struggling with this issue for a

6 long time.

7 So, the experience seems to be

8 until the Board actually takes a position on

9 getting something off the market, often we

10 don't see the research gearing up. We don't

11 see the money going in. And in fact, the

12 Board back in Seattle identifying this with an

13 expiration date, I think most people would

14 agree helped to stimulate research on

15 alternatives.

16 But the history on this really

17 starts back way before that. I would say the

18 original Board even struggled with this. And

19 the Board previous to the Seattle meeting back

20 in 2008 had come very close and issued

21 warnings on removing both tetracycline and

22 streptomycin.
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1 So anyway, the document is pretty

2 clear. The issue of exposure to streptomycin

3 seems to be a higher concern, even than

4 tetracycline in terms of direct human exposure

5 and transfer and horizontal gene transfer.

6 Concerns about antibiotic resistance, as you

7 know, this is the key public health issue.

8 That is why the Infectious Disease Society of

9 America has gotten involved in all of this.

10 And then struggling with the

11 question of how do you move something off the

12 market to effect different management

13 strategies and how do you balance that with

14 the public health concerns associated with

15 continued use.

16 So, we are talking human health,

17 ecological effects, effects on microbial

18 activity, weighing into the medical community.

19 We heard from the alternative producer of

20 biological-based material. We know it is not

21 perfect but we have made a lot of headway

22 since the original expiration date. The Board
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1 has already extended the expiration date once.

2 We have seen new research. Hopefully, we will

3 see more research coming in. And we just

4 can't afford to expand this problem of

5 antibiotic resistance. It is just something

6 that the organic community has to lead on, I

7 think. And I think that is the view of the

8 minority, generally, here.

9 If anybody else in the minority

10 wants to say anything, I defer to them.

11 CHAIR STONE: Other comments,

12 thoughts? Tracy.

13 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes, this one is

14 tough for me because like oxytetracycline,

15 there are significant impacts to the growers.

16 Should we take it from the marketplace? These

17 are not crops that can be regrown across a

18 season. As the commenter earlier today

19 mentioned, it is an investment in time, one

20 that has significant long-term impacts.

21 But looking at it from an

22 environmental standpoint, streptomycin
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1 troubles me for reasons that oxytetracycline

2 did not, in that it is allowed for repeated

3 application even after blossom fall. And the

4 half-life in the soil persists longer. It is

5 still not terribly persistent. I think the

6 checklist said something like 17 and a half

7 days for the half-life. But there is also

8 residue that is detectable in the fruit

9 itself.

10 So, unfortunately, I don't feel

11 like there is a good solution to this either

12 way on either decision, whether we vote it up

13 or we vote it down. But there are some things

14 that do trouble me about it.

15 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Tracy.

16 Are there other -- Francis.

17 MEMBER THICKE: Well, on that

18 point, Tracy, if you like chemistry, I did a

19 calculation. Some of the research shows that

20 the streptomycin would show up in apples at a

21 level of up to 18 parts per billion. And if

22 you do a calculation and you take an apple
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1 that weighs about a quarter of a pound, and

2 you calculate how many molecules of

3 streptomycin would be in that apple at one

4 part per billion, I'll bet you couldn't guess

5 how many molecules would be in there. It is

6 23 quadrillion. That is 23 times ten to the

7 15th molecules of streptomycin will be in that

8 apple at one part per billion. I have my

9 calculation right here if you want to see it.

10 CHAIR STONE: Others? Tracy.

11 MEMBER FAVRE: Just one thing I

12 did neglect to mention earlier but is actually

13 sort of the foundation of it for me is the

14 soil food web itself is impacted. There are

15 some studies that show that in the soil

16 causing an elimination of some of the

17 bacterial populations and it specifically says

18 eliminated species were described as

19 beneficial bacteria involved in various

20 metabolic processes, mineralization, and

21 organic compounds.

22 So unfortunately, we start this
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1 downward spiral as far as soil food health, as

2 far as the things that might actually lead to

3 the trees themselves and their ecosystem

4 increasing their own immunity to some of these

5 problems.

6 And it certainly has, I believe

7 this material has a greater impact than the

8 oxytetracycline.

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Tracy.

10 Zea.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'm sorry,

12 Francis, but I just have to challenge that

13 perception because it doesn't mean anything

14 unless you compare it to how many trillion

15 molecules are in a human dosage of that or how

16 many trillion molecules would cause a microbe

17 to become resistant to that. It doesn't

18 matter how many trillion molecules are in an

19 apple.

20 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

21 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Just to

22 quote from Kenneth Mandley from the Organic
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1 Tree Fruit Association, and this is part of

2 their written public testimony. Objections to

3 the use of the antibiotics for fire blight

4 management tend to be philosophical, rather

5 than scientifically-based. Current strains of

6 the antibiotic resistance in human and animal

7 pathogens have been conclusively linked to the

8 overuse of antibiotics in animal and medical

9 systems. However, no such linkage has been

10 shown for antibiotics supplied to a plant

11 pathogen. In fact, quite the contrary.

12 Recent published research from the

13 University of Wisconsin, based on ten years of

14 annual antibiotic applications to several

15 orchards have showed no increase in antibiotic

16 resistant microorganisms when compared to the

17 unsprayed orchard environments.

18 CHAIR STONE: Francis.

19 MEMBER THICKE: Zea is correct

20 that there needs to be a threshold to make an

21 effect. No doubt about that. However, some

22 people are more sensitive than others. I know
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1 personally some people who have to actually,

2 on person in particular, has to leave Iowa

3 every summer when the spraying of corn begins

4 and move to Upper Peninsula of Michigan

5 because her physician said she is

6 hypersensitive. And so some people.

7 Again, a trillion, a quadrillion

8 molecules, well, we have about a trillion

9 cells in our body. It is a big number and

10 things happen on a cellular level, on a

11 molecular level. So, we don't know what these

12 effects will be. And people, when they buy

13 apples, they don't expect that to be in there.

14 But you are right. There is a

15 threshold effect. We don't really know what

16 it is and science hasn't totally defined these

17 things on safety, I don't think.

18 CHAIR STONE: Jay.

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: The testimony we

20 got from the medical community suggested that

21 lower level exposures could be, and likely

22 are, more problematic when it comes to
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1 resistant genes developing. So, if you have

2 low levels of exposure, and we know this from

3 even taking medications that if you don't

4 complete your dosage, you are leaving behind

5 potentially stronger strains of this stuff.

6 But to follow-up on Harold, the

7 technical review had a reference to Yoshihiro

8 and McManus 2012 and they said it is possible

9 that streptomycin could select for novel

10 resistant genes in apple orchards, even if the

11 overall frequency of resistant bacteria is not

12 increased. A greater diversity of mobile

13 resistant genes in apple orchards could lead

14 to horizontal gene transfer of resistance,

15 among a greater range of bacteria, which in

16 turn could be consumed on fresh produce.

17 And so this is complex. And we

18 spent a lot of time discussing this idea that

19 low level residuals of the antibiotic in the

20 orchard does move to affect resistance in

21 genes. And those do move and there is a

22 transfer that occurs.
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1 So, you know you can take any

2 piece of this puzzle and talk about it but if

3 you don't talk about the whole environment and

4 the context in which we live with genes and

5 how the transfer occurs from food to humans,

6 from environment to other microbes, to other

7 bacteria, to humans, then you don't really

8 have the full picture on this.

9 And so you know I guess the other

10 bottom line here, as you recall from the last

11 conversation we had on this was the consumer

12 concerns about antibiotics used in organic

13 production. And that is sort of a hanging

14 over our heads in the environmental community

15 that we have allowed the use of antibiotics.

16 I think what saves the environmental community

17 on this issue is that there has been very

18 limited use and the uses that we have allowed

19 and are now phasing out.

20 But I think there is probably

21 agreement that most people assume that

22 antibiotics are not used in organic
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1 production.

2 CHAIR STONE: Seeing no other

3 hands, I will reference that as a grower I

4 don't grow tree fruit, but a perennial crop

5 like this and knowing how prudent growers are

6 in following label recommendations how they

7 are following, John, 205.206(e), how they are

8 managing the crop, then the expense of this

9 material, certifiers are verifying and working

10 with them that they are following 205.206

11 before they implement these sprays, that they

12 are doing everything they can. They only

13 spray it when they are having the weather

14 conditions, the modeling is right. And it is

15 such a valuable tool that I guess I am

16 personally reluctant to take that away from

17 them for a couple more years until we get more

18 tools that would be better tools.

19 Jay?

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: You know I agree

21 with that generally, but we did visit an

22 orchard where the grower was spraying
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1 prophylactically. And he found in his own

2 experience that it was best and more efficient

3 and effective to spray on a calendar. I'm not

4 saying that that is the norm or that the

5 industry even endorses that as a practice but

6 when you are dealing with a material that has

7 the consequences that these do, then we don't

8 have a lot of room for error on something like

9 that.

10 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: A couple of

12 points. I think the one thing that I failed

13 to stress when we started this presentation is

14 that both the majority and the minority

15 positions are both in support of streptomycin

16 delisting and Sunsetting off. I think it is

17 just our differences of opinion are when that

18 should occur.

19 I think a couple of the points

20 that we should consider is what impact does an

21 extension have or not have on the

22 stakeholders. All the stakeholders. Not just
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1 the consumers but the handlers, the producers,

2 the retailers, everybody.

3 What would that decision impact?

4 How will it impact the supply chain? How

5 would this decision impact consumers? All

6 consumers, not a select group of consumers but

7 all organic consumers.

8 Truly, what are the real risks for

9 granting an extension for the large use,

10 knowing that the use patterns pose significant

11 increases? Will they propose significant

12 increases in human health? We have had two

13 varying points of view. Which one is right?

14 Which one is wrong? There is a balance there.

15 I think we all, at the end of the

16 day, agree that this material needs to take

17 and get de-listed. It is just a matter,

18 again, whether it is 2014 or 2017. This is

19 not a new material but it is one that has been

20 on the National List of approved materials for

21 several years, being allowed for use in

22 organic -- for organic growers to use and
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1 build on their organic crops.

2 So, we visited businesses. We

3 have had other companies, besides just the

4 producers that have built their businesses

5 upon an expanded growth in organic production.

6 We need to take and consider not with just

7 this material but with all materials, the

8 impact that we will have, our decisions will

9 have, on all organic stakeholders.

10 Thank you.

11 CHAIR STONE: Nick.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Jay, I would

13 just like to make a comment because we were in

14 that orchard together where the farm manager

15 was spraying prophylactically. Just to give

16 you a little bit of context for that, we have

17 heard that the history of a specific orchard

18 or location is important. And that particular

19 orchard he did give us the history. It was

20 heavily infested with blight. The problem is

21 how long do you hold on to that history. And

22 I think you have a very legitimate concern
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1 that they may have been holding on to that

2 history way too long.

3 But I just wanted to say that

4 growers, even this grower who you say was

5 doing it prophylactically, was responding to

6 his history and I don't know what the research

7 or the data would say when does that history

8 of a severe infection fade. It is too

9 complicated of a formula for me to be able to

10 render an opinion on that.

11 Any other? Zea.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, I know we

13 need to wrap this up or we will never finish

14 today but I just want to, although it was in

15 the public docket, bring out one paragraph of

16 the testimony from the Infectious Disease

17 Society of America. And they say much work

18 must be done to improve our scientific

19 understanding of the risks that antibiotic use

20 in orchards poses to human health. We do not

21 yet understand the magnitude, extent, and

22 duration of the human exposure to streptomycin
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1 that may result from environmental application

2 to fruit trees. We do not understand the

3 environmental effects of streptomycin in soil

4 and water. Most importantly, we do not fully

5 understand the extent to which bacteria with

6 antibiotic resistance genes can be transferred

7 to humans through food and water supplies or

8 from the environment, following application of

9 streptomycin from fruit trees.

10 Accordingly, the IDSA strongly

11 supports an expanded federal research agenda

12 to address these questions.

13 IDSA goes on to support the

14 minority position under essentially the

15 precautionary principle, which certainly, from

16 where they are coming from, makes perfect

17 sense. But I submit to you that these

18 contentions that we just don't have enough

19 science backing to prove any of the risks that

20 are being hypothesized a great deal have meant

21 that organic farmers have been operating in

22 entire good faith, trying to maintain their
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1 livelihood using the best practices possible

2 that they understand to ensure both the health

3 of their trees, as well as the health of the

4 people who eat their fruit.

5 And while I realize that this is

6 probably going to go along the same voting

7 lines that we did last time, I just really

8 feel that to support these growers who are

9 operating in good faith to make a reasonable

10 transition to the products that would be more

11 efficacious and less hypothetically impacting

12 on the environment makes sense by having a

13 longer term transition for them and keeping

14 the material for another three years.

15 CHAIR STONE: Jay.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: The complication

17 here is both scientific. Obviously, there is

18 a precautionary principle built in there. We

19 also had perhaps the leading infectious

20 disease doc in the country and maybe the

21 global community, Glen Morris speaking. And

22 he was very clear. He said I think if you say
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1 we wait for more studies, we are potentially

2 taking years and a lot of money. And again,

3 while I am not speaking officially for IDS, I

4 believe there is a letter from IDSA in your

5 docket. And again, feeling very strongly from

6 the Infectious Disease Society of America, you

7 know it is time to do it now.

8 So, he has done a lot of work in

9 animal agriculture and we certainly have, I

10 think, agreement in this room, probably, that

11 antibiotics in animal agricultures are a

12 serious problem, and is using his experience

13 from that to extrapolate data in terms of

14 horizontal gene transfer.

15 So, that is the science. But now

16 we are faced with the assurances that we do

17 move away from these materials. That has been

18 the difficulty with this particular material.

19 And the juxtaposition of not having assurances

20 through the process by which we -- I mean this

21 is a proposal to put the material into the

22 cycle again so two or three years from now we
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1 will having or the Board will be having the

2 same conversation with a whole new set of

3 folks. And who knows how it will go at that

4 point.

5 So, we need assurances. We needed

6 assurances six years' ago, when the Board

7 originally took this up four years' ago now,

8 and many people on this Board discussed it.

9 And assurance is only as good as the people

10 that agree to it. And we will have all new

11 folks sitting around the table, for the most

12 part, when this comes up again.

13 So, I think the time is now. I

14 agree with Dr. Morris. There is always going

15 to be with science questions of uncertainty.

16 Always. But you have got to take what you

17 know from how resistance has operated. And by

18 the way, you all know we are seeing a higher

19 degree of resistance with streptomycin than we

20 even saw with tetracycline. And the

21 expectation is we are going to see elevated

22 resistance to tetracycline in the orchard
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1 environment as well.

2 So, all the signals are there for

3 us. The data of the horizontal gene transfer

4 is there. The resistance, the bacterial

5 resistance is there. The consumer concern

6 about exposure is there. The ultimately -- I

7 can't think of a stronger case for -- and more

8 deliberation and assessment that has gone on

9 any one chemical.

10 So, thank you.

11 CHAIR STONE: Harold, is the lead

12 all through there? Do you want to wrap up?

13 Or Zea? I'm not sure where you all here.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, I think we

15 are ready to move on. We will vote tomorrow.

16 And if perhaps we will have a bit more

17 discussion at that time or make statements

18 before voting.

19 Next is magnesium oxide petitioned

20 item. Lisa will introduce this.

21 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Zea.

22 The petition for magnesium oxide
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1 was received on February 13, 2013 and was

2 submitted by Mesa Verde Resources. It is not

3 currently included on the National List and

4 has been petitioned for addition to Section

5 205.601 as a synthetic substance allowed for

6 use in organic crop production.

7 There is no technical report that

8 was requested in response to this petition.

9 The petition was on the agenda for the October

10 2013 NOSB meeting that was canceled. So,

11 there is a subcommittee proposal from that

12 meeting that has been revised in response to

13 public comment with the minority opinion

14 added.

15 Thanks.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, Francis,

17 I believe you are going to walk us through

18 this one.

19 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. What is

20 proposed or petitioned for magnesium oxide is

21 petition to be an agent to control the

22 viscosity of a clay suspension. Can you hear?
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1 Okay, I'm sorry.

2 Magnesium oxide is petitioned to

3 be an agent to control the viscosity of a clay

4 suspension agent used to apply fine humates to

5 soils or plants, perhaps. And so, it is used

6 at very small level, a very low level.

7 And in the Committee -- well, just

8 basically back to the comments, last fall

9 there were eight comments and for the spring,

10 there were an additional six comments. And

11 actually all the comments were opposed to the

12 petition being -- the addition of magnesium

13 oxide to the National List. However, the

14 committee voted to add it to the list, eight

15 to zero.

16 And the comments mostly centered

17 on the fact that it maybe wouldn't be renewed

18 in five years, asking if it could be renewed

19 -- if an annotation could be put in to require

20 magnesium oxide to be revisited again in five

21 years.

22 There was also one concern about
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1 there is a small amount of acid used in the

2 making of the magnesium oxide.

3 The annotation -- let's see. The

4 annotation for the listing motion was for use

5 only to control the viscosity of a clay

6 suspension agent for humates. And then the

7 additional, the minority position that came on

8 since last fall added to that annotation to

9 list magnesium oxide with the following

10 annotation: until May 1, 2019 or five years

11 after the date it is first allowed.

12 So it would be only listed until

13 that time period. And the justification given

14 for that is that a synthetic material used in

15 organic production, even if used in small

16 quantities, must meet all the off-public

17 criteria.

18 Current consideration of the

19 material has raised issues related to the

20 environmental impacts and alternatives. One,

21 the review in five years must be performed

22 with the same standard for allowing continued
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1 use as is used to approve use in the first

2 place. Two, the need for liquid humates and,

3 hence, magnesium oxide, should be reevaluated.

4 Three, the possibility of using non-synthetic

5 acids in place of synthetic sulfuric acid must

6 be reevaluated.

7 So, I guess that is the base

8 starting here.

9 CHAIR STONE: Questions from the

10 Board, other people on the Committee?

11 Comment?

12 Zea, are we thinking we are going

13 to go ahead and vote on this or will you wait

14 on everything?

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: I will leave

16 that to the discretion of the Chair, but I do

17 have a comment, if no one else is going to

18 talk.

19 CHAIR STONE: Please.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. I think

21 -- I can't speak for everyone in the majority

22 position but I think it is safe to say that
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1 the reason that the minority position did not

2 become the majority position is because most

3 people don't feel that inserting into each

4 material something you didn't like about the

5 Sunset process in general is an appropriate

6 way to approach this issue.

7 And so, the majority feels that it

8 should go be voted on to the National List in

9 a normal fashion, where it will get thoroughly

10 reviewed in five years whether there is an

11 expiration date in three years or not.

12 Because a fixed expiration date, when you

13 don't know when a rule is coming out, is not

14 five years. It could be four, three, two, who

15 knows how long.

16 CHAIR STONE: Other committee

17 members?

18 MEMBER BONDERA: Sorry. It does

19 say, Zea, or five years after the date it is

20 first allowed.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Nonetheless,

22 the reason I think it is --
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1 CHAIR STONE: Jay.

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, I guess we

3 may be having this conversation a lot,

4 unfortunately, and usually it is tied to some

5 potential environmental effect that we talk

6 about uncertainty with streptomycin. We talk

7 about uncertainty with magnesium oxide. As I

8 said earlier, a lot of these things have a

9 degree of uncertainty associated with a full

10 degree of adverse effects. That is why it is

11 important to default at the end of a year to

12 a relisting process, where the Board reaffirms

13 that this still meets the OFPA criteria.

14 You know, there is a real high

15 heat -- I mean Calvin -- I mean sorry --

16 Francis, you evaluated this and there was this

17 limestone process and then there was a salt

18 brine process, which seemed to be less

19 effective, perhaps for commercial purposes.

20 And so we are dealing with a process, a high

21 heat process that releases carbon dioxide

22 through fossil fuels to achieve the high heat
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1 required to decompose the limestone.

2 So, it is not as if this is

3 something you are cooking up in your kitchen.

4 you know there is an, albeit limited,

5 environmental impact associated with this,

6 although, I think some of my friends in the

7 climate change community would not like to see

8 the release in the organic community of

9 additional carbon dioxide.

10 But the point here is that we, as

11 a Board, have the opportunity to say there is

12 a potential environmental insult here that we

13 could incentivize alternatives for and the

14 best way to do that is to require that in five

15 years or five years after the rulemaking

16 finishes, that the Board again makes an

17 affirmative decision to keep this on the list,

18 based on any new science on this carbon

19 dioxide or hopefully the salt brine process

20 will be better commercialized or something.

21 Whatever it is, creating that

22 incentive is important. So, that is the
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1 purpose of expiration date.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: So, Mac, I

3 don't see why we couldn't vote, unless anyone

4 feels like they are going to find out

5 something additional between now and Friday

6 that they want to wait. Okay.

7 CHAIR STONE: John?

8 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I didn't think

9 about it until Zea and Jay just talked about

10 those items but this is, I am finding truer

11 and truer with all materials, that a lot of

12 the dialogue speaks as if we are putting tons

13 of these materials onto the ground. And given

14 the use of this, the context of this use, it

15 is just not the case. And I feel like a lot

16 of the dialogue comes around that makes it

17 sound like we are putting a lot of this

18 product on.

19 But in the context of the limited

20 use of something in humates, humates aren't

21 added in large volume, certainly not relative

22 to other inputs in organic production. I
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1 don't -- I can't think. I don't know what the

2 numbers would be. But it would be a fraction

3 of a fraction of a percent of other kinds of

4 input. So, the magnesium oxide portion of

5 humates is even smaller than that.

6 And I want to, I guess, drive that

7 point home because what I hear, if I didn't

8 know the use of humates or magnesium oxide

9 component, the fraction in humates, I would

10 think this is a horrible, horrible thing. And

11 I would like to remind everyone that we have

12 a context for these materials. Magnesium

13 oxide is a fraction of an infrequently used,

14 relative to all inputs in organic, it is an

15 infrequently used input. And I am hoping we

16 can keep that context in mind. Those of you

17 who know me know that this is not the first

18 time I have said this.

19 But this dialogue right here makes

20 it sounds like it is a much larger issue, in

21 terms of volume than I think it will be and I

22 would like to just remind us of that.
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1 CHAIR STONE: So, I'm thinking in

2 the essence of time, we are running late, but

3 also to give Board members time to converse

4 with each other at dinner and whatnot about

5 these specific materials, about this

6 discussion of scale, if you will, or use,

7 normal use, et cetera, we will defer all votes

8 until Friday. I think we will have enough

9 time on Friday so we can openly deliberate and

10 note bog down in vote-taking today, Zea, if

11 that is all right with you.

12 Okay, anything else on magnesium

13 oxide?

14 Okay, next up.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, the next

16 is the petitioned item new for this meeting,

17 vinasse. Lisa?

18 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Zea. The

19 petition for vinasse was submitted on March

20 27, 2012. The petitioner is BioBizz Worldwide

21 N.V. The material is not currently included

22 anywhere on the National List and the petition
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1 requests the inclusion of vinasse at Section

2 205.601 as a synthetic substance allowed for

3 use in crop production.

4 In support of its review, the

5 Crops Subcommittee requested a limited scope

6 technical evaluation report to assist in the

7 classification of this material. That report

8 is posted on the NOP website. Thanks.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you,

10 Lisa. I am the point person on this one.

11 This material has been on our work

12 plan almost since I joined, which is about two

13 years plus. It is complicated and it has

14 taken us a very long time to get to this

15 point. We had a limited scope TR done, as it

16 says in the posted document, only on the

17 question of whether it was synthetic or non18 synthetic and what forms of it would be

19 considered synthetic or non-synthetic.

20 It is confusing because it is

21 called vinasse, whether it has additives added

22 before the fermentation and the production
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1 step or after the fermentation and production

2 step, which is similar to molasses and some

3 other non-synthetic things that are on the

4 list of allowed things.

5 So, what we came to was that the

6 stages of extracting sugar and making molasses

7 are non-synthetic processes. To the extent

8 that the last step in vinasse is a

9 fermentation process to turn the molasses into

10 vinasse, and that is a naturally occurring

11 biological process, as are the other steps

12 that are involved in vinasse, and so the

13 product coming out of the fermentation would

14 be considered non-synthetic.

15 Our problem comes with additives

16 that are added after the fermentation process

17 is complete. And these additives consist of

18 all sorts of things, antimicrobials, ammonium

19 compounds, even antibiotics or chlorine

20 sometimes, and there is the danger of nitrogen

21 fortification.

22 So, we decided, in the Crops
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1 Subcommittee, that we needed to distinguish

2 the non-synthetic from the synthetic forms.

3 And that is where our majority position came

4 from, which was to classify it as non5 synthetic but then to use the guidance

6 documents on the classification of materials

7 and the permitted substances list to clarify

8 which things were and weren't synthetic.

9 We got public comments from

10 relatively few, considering that it is a

11 fertilizer material. But the gist of many of

12 the public comments, both supporting minority

13 and majority, was to get the classification of

14 materials guidance finished. We are saying we

15 are using in order to make these decisions but

16 it is only proposed guidance and we would have

17 a lot surer footing if we were dealing with

18 final guidance. So, that is out on the table

19 for everyone to hear.

20 We got a couple of certifiers in

21 OMRI who support the majority position, feel

22 that we have made a good distinguish of what
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1 is non-synthetic and what is synthetic. And

2 that the MROs in the certifiers and OMRI are

3 capable of doing a good review process, using

4 the guidelines that we have proposed.

5 However, PCO pointed out that we

6 were proposing language to modify the guidance

7 when we didn't necessarily have the authority

8 to do so and please clarify what the procedure

9 for amending proposed guidance or final

10 guidance would be, so that they could petition

11 to do it in the future presumably. They don't

12 say that but they would like it to be

13 clarified.

14 OMRI would like further guidance

15 on what fortification means with nitrogen,

16 which has been a big stumbling block in

17 approving some of theirs.

18 All the certifiers and OMRI did

19 not think the minority position was workable

20 because it was too complicated and showed lack

21 of confidence in the MROs who review

22 materials.
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1 Now, Beyond Pesticides and

2 Cornucopia pointed out that the motion the way

3 it is posed on non-synthetic is not binding on

4 the NOP to offer the clarification and that we

5 are only proposing to have the clarification

6 of what non-synthetic is in guidance and

7 Beyond Pesticide has suggested that we put the

8 clarification on what was non-synthetic in the

9 actual definition.

10 And we heard that. It was a good

11 suggestion and so we have proposed a

12 substitute motion -- Michelle, if you have

13 that slide and could be getting it up while I

14 talk -- where we have used language motion to

15 put into the first motion to make a better

16 actual determination on what non-synthetic

17 vinasse means in our motion.

18 Cornucopia also urged us to adopt

19 a motion that defines the distinction between

20 synthetic and non-synthetic and should be

21 independent of the draft guidance.

22 Several commenters wrote in
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1 parroting Beyond Pesticides' comments, three

2 of them.

3 And I am going to let Jay present

4 the minority view in a second but the minority

5 view proposed roughly putting vinasse onto

6 both 602 and 601; 2 as prohibited, 1 to

7 prohibit the synthetic forms. And well, he

8 has to explain it.

9 It made very little sense to me as

10 well as to certifiers because 601 is for

11 allowed synthetics and he is proposing to put

12 an allowed non-synthetic -- the synthetic

13 forms as a prohibited synthetic.

14 So lastly, I want to point out

15 that because this is a petition that came to

16 us for a synthetic non-synthetic determination

17 and nobody wants to put synthetic forms of

18 vinasse onto the national list that is in our

19 group, as near as I can tell. If this vote

20 fails for the majority motion, the status quo

21 of what is going on in the community is

22 maintained and it is out of the NOSB's hands.
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1 So, that means MROs will be

2 continued to make their own decisions and we

3 will be offering them no guidance whatsoever.

4 So, that being said, Mac, you want

5 to take it away to call on Jay for the --

6 CHAIR STONE: Yes. Jay.

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, thanks.

8 Thanks, Zea.

9 So the Subcommittee convened again

10 and took the suggestions from the comments and

11 agreed with the motion unanimously, I believe,

12 to amend the motion to include the guidance

13 language that was in the motion into one

14 streamlined motion.

15 I guess the idea is to also ask

16 the NOP but, of course, there is no assurance

17 on that but to request that the NOP consider

18 putting this into guidance at some point as

19 soon as possible.

20 So, in effect, that means that the

21 minority motion is being and has been

22 withdrawn because the proposals that came in
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1 through the public comment period proposed

2 more streamlined approach.

3 I am a little nervous, though the

4 reason I was hoping to get something into the

5 National List is because that provides the

6 greatest assurance that any restrictions that

7 this Board wants to impose or recommends

8 imposing on a material would be incorporated

9 into the National List by the Secretary.

10 So, this is a little unique, in

11 some respects, because this is a motion on

12 synthetic/non-synthetic with a qualifier. I

13 don't think I have ever voted on one like that

14 before. Have you, John?

15 So, I guess it is going to be out

16 there and the MROs will rely on it as they

17 make their determination when vinasse products

18 come through the door. I hope it works.

19 CHAIR STONE: And I would like to

20 program -- Melissa, maybe, so, we have heard

21 that significant changes not be allowed on

22 short notice but Zea and the Committee
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1 consulted with the Program that this was a

2 clarification, not a significant change. If

3 maybe you want to address that conversation a

4 little bit. Substantive change.

5 DR. BAILEY: Substantive. Yes,

6 sure.

7 Yes, we received a request from

8 the Crops Committee to add some of the

9 language that was really already part of the

10 posted proposal for the public, just into the

11 classification motion. And based on running

12 it through the criteria we presented yesterday

13 about substantive change, we still felt that

14 people would understand what the Board was --

15 or what the Subcommittee was trying to propose

16 and just adding that language to the

17 classification motion is really just a

18 clarification.

19 CHAIR STONE: Good. Thank you.

20 Since that is new, I want to be sure we open

21 that up.

22 Any other questions or thoughts
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1 from the committee? Nick?

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: Zea, does this

3 mean that the second motion is no longer in

4 play or to be voted on? It seems to be an

5 identical restatement of the first motion but

6 only oriented towards guidance.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: I was planning

8 to keep the second motion and have it voted on

9 so it would be clear to the NOP that we would

10 like this added to the guidance. But if Board

11 members and/or the NOP feel assured that that

12 would happen anyway, then we don't need to

13 have the second motion. But it had been my

14 plan to keep the second motion.

15 And can everyone read it okay or

16 do you need me to read it to you? And that

17 includes the audience.

18 CHAIR STONE: I would like you to

19 read it and clarify the -- please read it and

20 clarify.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. So, the

22 original motion -- well, we had two motions.
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1 One was a determination for classification and

2 the other was for the guidance. The original

3 motion for classification was just to classify

4 vinasse as non-synthetic. The proposed change

5 to the classification motion is move to

6 classify vinasse, which does not contain

7 prohibited additives, such as pH adjusters,

8 sanitizers, ammonium compounds, antibiotics,

9 or chlorine materials, and is not fortified

10 with nitrogen as non-synthetic.

11 So, that went through the

12 subcommittee; six yes, zero no, zero abstain,

13 and one absent.

14 Is that clear? Does anyone need

15 further explanation?

16 MEMBER BONDERA: Zea, I just

17 suggest that you go ahead and repeat what the

18 second motion is, too, please. Because it is

19 not -- as a member of the Crops Subcommittee

20 for a bit, I remember it not being super clear

21 to me that that is, like you have already

22 said, just guidance. And then repeating that
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1 would be appropriate.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. The

3 second motion is to -- and this is exactly

4 what is posted. Motion to add specific

5 language for a listing of vinasse in the

6 guidance on materials for organic crop

7 production, NOP 5034-1. Vinasse may not

8 contain prohibited additives, such as but not

9 limited to, pH adjusters, sanitizers, ammonium

10 compounds, antibiotics, or chlorine materials

11 that are not provided for at 205.601.

12 Nitrogen levels may not be fortified.

13 CHAIR STONE: Colehour?

14 MEMBER BONDERA: So, I personally

15 feel like us leaving this as a motion, like

16 Zea suggested, makes the most sense from the

17 perspective of -- I hesitate to say it but --

18 uncertainty that I want to turn back to the

19 Program and ask if, like people said, like Jay

20 said, has there even been a -- sorry I am not

21 speaking into the microphone -- a

22 classification motion that is along those
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1 lines before and has the Program really dealt

2 with one like that. Because that uncertainty

3 makes me think that the second motion is

4 necessary because of that. I don't know if

5 you have any response or not.

6 CHAIR STONE: Miles.

7 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I think that

8 this is exactly the kind of advice,

9 recommendations that we are looking for from

10 the Board is on materials. This is where we

11 really want your expertise and the viewpoint

12 of the community as a whole on these difficult

13 material issues. So, I think moving forward

14 with this, whatever your final determination

15 is, will very much help us in terms of

16 clarifying the standards and the requirements

17 to organic producers, specifically.

18 So, the second motion of

19 recommending that it goes into the final

20 guidance would help us in terms of moving

21 forward with that clarification.

22 In addition, I think people should
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1 re-familiarize themselves with the

2 introduction to the Program handbook, where it

3 talks about the development of the documents

4 in the Program handbook. At any time, anyone

5 can submit comments to the documents in the

6 Program handbook, through NOP guidance at

7 USDA.gov. So, those documents are alive and

8 can be modified with comments and with

9 discussion or recommendations from the Board.

10 So, that is the whole concept of

11 that Program handbook is that it will continue

12 to improve with input from the Board and the

13 organic community.

14 CHAIR STONE: Nick, are you good?

15 Jay.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, I think I

17 heard two parts to Colehour's question. Maybe

18 I was reading into it. But I would like to

19 verify with the Program that if this were to

20 pass, as Zea has read it, that the Program

21 would publish it as a two-part action by the

22 Board, one being the synthetic determination
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1 with that qualifying language and two, the

2 second motion being a recommendation on

3 guidance, publication of guidance.

4 And the reason I am raising this

5 is because as you know, we have had other two6 part motions or votes where the Program chose

7 the second motion, to implement the second

8 motion, not the first. It is not exactly

9 analogous but there is a possibility, I guess,

10 out there that the Program could determine,

11 perhaps, hypothetically, that maybe a

12 synthetic or non-synthetic determination with

13 qualified language is not appropriate, that

14 that is just a yes or no vote, up or down, and

15 that a qualification Zea is proposing here and

16 the subcommittee voted on would not be

17 included with that motion.

18 I that were the case, I would feel

19 that that didn't fairly carry out at least

20 what the subcommittee was hoping would be

21 done.

22 Does that --
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1 MR. McEVOY: I'm not sure I am

2 following you. The Board passes

3 recommendations that go to the Program and

4 then we take those recommendations and respond

5 to them.

6 So, are you asking for us to

7 respond to what we are going to do with your

8 recommendations now before you pass the

9 recommendations?

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: Maybe a little

11 heads up would help.

12 You know it seems pretty

13 straightforward but what this subcommittee is

14 hoping to do is to get into the synthetic/non15 synthetic determination or motion, qualifying

16 language. If the program feels that that is

17 inappropriate or outside the scope of

18 allowable motion on synthetic/non-synthetic,

19 it would be nice to know that now.

20 DR. BAILEY: Yes, I think to your

21 last question there, part of the reason we had

22 the conversation leading up to this meeting
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1 about adding the qualifying language is that

2 we felt that would be fine to put on the

3 table. So, hopefully, that addresses your

4 question.

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: Politically

6 stated beautifully.

7 CHAIR STONE: Zea, -- one second

8 Jean -- what was the vote on the original

9 second motion?

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Four to three.

11 CHAIR STONE: Okay.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: The minority

13 voted against it, the same minority that voted

14 against the first one.

15 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Jean, you are

16 up.

17 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I would just

18 like to hope -- I am not on your Subcommittee

19 -- that you would vote on both motions.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: I don't see why

21 we couldn't. I mean at worst, it is

22 redundant. So, we might as well.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Yes, I saw it as a

2 one and a two, myself.

3 Any more thoughts, clarifications?

4 Crystal clear?

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: So, do you want

6 to hold the vote until tomorrow?

7 CHAIR STONE: I do, just in time.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay.

9 CHAIR STONE: And again, it gives

10 us conversation and clarification.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay.

12 CHAIR STONE: Great.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: So next up is

14 laminarin, a petitioned item. And Lisa will

15 tell us about that.

16 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Zea. The

17 petition for laminarin was received on May 30,

18 2013. It was submitted by SciReg Incorporated

19 on behalf of Laboratoires Goëmar SA.

20 Apologies for the pronunciation. It is not

21 currently included anywhere on the National

22 List and the petition requests the inclusion
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1 of Laminarin at Section 205.601 as a synthetic

2 substance allowed for use in organic crop

3 production.

4 There was no technical evaluation

5 report that was requested by the Subcommittee

6 for its deliberations. And the Subcommittee

7 proposal is posted online. Thanks.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you,

9 Lisa. I was the point person on this one as

10 well.

11 So, in the laminarin petition,

12 they gave a quite detailed explanation of

13 their manufacturing process. We took a look

14 at that, compared to the guidance

15 classification draft and determined that it

16 was an acid-based extraction and the end

17 product of the acid base extraction left a bit

18 of -- where is the name of it -- sodium

19 sulfate, which did not appear to have a

20 technical or functional affect. And so the

21 majority of the Committee voted this as non22 synthetic, with a vote of five to two.
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1 The public comment, we have

2 gotten, again, relatively little. The gist of

3 much of it was how can you base it on a

4 classification guidance that is still a draft

5 guidance. And we like final guidance to

6 determine if this really is acid-base

7 extraction and what you had in mind for

8 classification.

9 We got several comments that were

10 criticizing us not evaluating according to the

11 OFPA criteria but the non-synthetic/synthetic

12 distinction comes first and only the

13 synthetics are evaluated, compared to the

14 criteria formerly in our deliberations.

15 We got, among the public comment

16 that we got, was PCO suggested that we do send

17 it back for a TR to provide more guidance to

18 MROs on how to evaluate the product.

19 OMRI supported the majority

20 opinion but disagrees with the last point, as

21 you heard Lindsay say today. Or was that

22 yesterday? But anyway, the sodium sulfate
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1 does remain but OMRI would look at it as a

2 List 4(a) inert and inerts are not something

3 that we are reviewing at the same time as the

4 generic materials.

5 Cornucopia and Beyond Pesticides

6 felt that it was synthetic and supported the

7 minority opinion and that it should be sent

8 back for a determination of synthetic and,

9 therefore, a full TAP review, TR.

10 I will mention, as I mentioned

11 with vinasse, unlike vinasse where if the

12 motion fails here, it is over, which was the

13 case with vinasse, if this motion fails for

14 calling it non-synthetic, it will go back to

15 the Subcommittee and the Subcommittee will

16 consider some of the points raised and decide

17 whether to request a TR and bring it back for

18 another synthetic/non-synthetic determination

19 after we have a TR. And the TR, presumably,

20 would look at it according the criteria that

21 we use for synthetics.

22 So, then we got three public
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1 comments that were very brief that supported

2 Beyond Pesticides' position. And that is

3 pretty much all the public comment we got.

4 CHAIR STONE: Miles.

5 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I just wanted to

6 make a comment about the need for the final

7 guidance on classification materials. We

8 understand it is really, really important. We

9 are working to get that out and we hope to

10 have that out within the next few months.

11 And but you do have -- yes,

12 glacially moving through the python. You do

13 have a lot of resources to utilize. You do

14 have your final recommendation on the

15 classification materials that you passed a few

16 years ago. So, you have some really solid

17 basis to utilize in the meantime, before that

18 final guidance is out. And you also have the

19 draft guidance, which is based on the NOSB

20 final recommendation on classification

21 materials.

22 So, we do understand the
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1 importance of getting the final guidance out

2 and Lisa and Melissa are really pushing that

3 glacier as quickly as possible.

4 CHAIR STONE: Jay.

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: For us wonks on

6 this stuff, this is a lot of fun. So, if you

7 want more fun next semester, joint the Crops

8 Committee.

9 There are a lot of issues here

10 that intersect with what the Board has done

11 previously. First of all, I don't think

12 anyone is now denying that there is a

13 synthetic remaining in the final product.

14 That is the case. What you call it or

15 otherwise could be important to this

16 discussion for a number of reasons. But the

17 principle reason is that typically what a

18 manufacturer has been done in recent years

19 anyway, is petitioning the Board for the

20 allowance of the inert ingredient. So, we

21 have actually a lot of -- several materials in

22 the queue to be reviewed by the Board or the
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1 Subcommittee and then the Board, as inert

2 ingredients. And this one might pass the

3 test. It might just be a great example of one

4 that might pass the test. Who knows? But the

5 point is it has to be evaluated. It has to be

6 evaluated by the Board and it should be

7 evaluated at least at the same time as the

8 materials being evaluated, but certainly not

9 after the material has been evaluated.

10 And as you all know, this has been

11 one of the biggest problems with pesticides

12 generally, that inerts have gotten sort of a

13 pass, in many ways. They are not subject to

14 the same level of scrutiny as an active

15 ingredient. And then, years later, you find

16 out, oops, that inert was a real problem, in

17 fact, more problematic than the active

18 ingredient, which may be the issue here -- may

19 or may not. We don't have the process in

20 place yet to make that determination.

21 And that is my point. Since we

22 don't have the process in place yet to review
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1 inerts, my thinking on this, after spending a

2 weekend with an EPA chemist who went through

3 all the numbers and then Lisa Brines checked

4 him out on the level of the actual sodium

5 sulfate left in the material after this acid6 based reaction that has been described. And

7 you know those numbers are neither here nor

8 there, except to establish that the material

9 is there, which was confirmed by OMRI. So, we

10 are not debating that issue, as I said.

11 Since we don't have an inerts

12 policy, it would be good, I thought, to

13 evaluate this together. And I don't think it

14 would even take a complete TR. I think, you

15 could probably do a modified TR on this.

16 It is bad precedent not to do

17 that. It is bad precedent not to review these

18 things. We have gotten in trouble with that

19 before. So, we would send it back to

20 subcommittee. We would do a modified TR on

21 this particular inert and then move it through

22 to the next meeting. That would be my
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1 suggestion.

2 The other point you saw in OMRI's

3 comments, which goes to the consistency

4 question, is that other aquatic plant extracts

5 are classified as synthetic under 205.601.

6 So, it is not as if we don't have other

7 synthetic aquatic plant extracts, which this

8 would be, that are allowed in organic

9 production. It is a matter of following the

10 process so that we have dotted all our i's,

11 crossed all our t's.

12 This would actually be an

13 interesting case study for evaluating an inert

14 on a pretty expedited basis. It is a 4(a),

15 List 4(a) inert. It is one of the inerts that

16 I would guess would probably pass the test but

17 we have to go through that process.

18 CHAIR STONE: Lisa?

19 DR. BRINES: Yes, just a

20 clarification, since my name was mentioned in

21 the calculations. I did look at the

22 calculations that Jay had forwarded. Just for
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1 the record, I did have some concerns with some

2 of the assumptions that were built into the

3 calculations. I am not an EPA chemist but I

4 didn't agree with the numbers that were

5 calculated. Thanks.

6 MEMBER FELDMAN: And just -- I did

7 not mean to misrepresent you. I didn't get

8 that from your email. I guess I may have

9 misinterpreted it. So, just for the record,

10 just so folks in the future have this, there

11 is a 624 parts per million sulfate and 299

12 parts per million of sodium added to the final

13 product. And because the kelp provides some

14 buffering capacity, which is what Lisa

15 originally contacted us about, the chemist at

16 EPA told us that the quantities, because of

17 this buffering effect, are probably somewhat

18 higher than this calculation indicates.

19 I thought we had had your

20 concurrence on this but I guess we don't.

21 That is the feedback we got from the EPA

22 chemist and I apologize for misrepresenting.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Jean.

2 MEMBER RICHARDSON: My comment may

3 be a little bit off point but I am going to

4 make it anyway. Because when we are looking

5 at the laminarin, whether or not it is

6 synthetic or non-synthetic, which I think is

7 a slightly confusing issues, as Jay has

8 brought out, and lacks really perfect clarity

9 from the scientific point of view.

10 The other thing that I am

11 concerned if all the Crops Subcommittee looks

12 at is the synthetic/non-synthetic and it is

13 fine, oh, it is agriculture or non-synthetic,

14 it goes forward, no one has actually taken the

15 time then to look at all the other OFPA

16 criteria. And so, I know the north coast of

17 Britain, where they are getting this laminaria

18 from and I don't know how much laminaria is

19 being harvested to make this product. I don't

20 know what its impact is on the aquatic

21 ecosystem in that area. And so even though it

22 is off point, because if it is non-synthetic,
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1 then you don't have to look at those things.

2 So, therefore, what I am saying is sort of

3 moot. It is nonetheless, I think, something

4 that is important for us to be thinking about

5 as we deliberate on this nuance synthetic/non6 synthetic, when there are, in fact, a number

7 of other issues of conservation and biological

8 diversity that we really need to keep in the

9 back of our minds as we are looking at this

10 as well.

11 CHAIR STONE: Zea.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

13 Well, I just feel the need to correct what I

14 see as inaccuracies in the statement that Jay

15 just made because we do have an inerts policy

16 in place. And the inerts policy that is in

17 place is to allow List 4(a) and 4(b) inerts

18 until we have another policy in place to

19 replace that.

20 The inerts that were petitioned

21 individually generally were petitioned because

22 they are not on 4(a) or 4(b) already and they
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1 would like some consideration. That was

2 petitioned and it is on 4(a) and 4(b) -- then

3 it is allowed and it will be reviewed in our

4 regular inerts policy.

5 I am not saying that I am against

6 sending this back and having a TR but I

7 consider this residue to be an impurity and,

8 as such an impurity, it could possibly be

9 evaluated by a TR because it is synthetic but

10 not because it is a 4(a) inert. Because it is

11 a 4(a) inert, it should be allowed.

12 CHAIR STONE: Calvin.

13 SECRETARY WALKER: I would like to

14 concur with Gene. My notes with magnesium

15 oxide, as well as laminarin, I noted in my

16 notes, no TR. And it has always been my view

17 is that we should not look at just the

18 petitioner's information. We need to use

19 other form of information to make sure it meet

20 all the criteria.

21 CHAIR STONE: So, I had a

22 question. It says it is allowed by EPA as a
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1 disease control. Who is using for what type

2 of control and how much demand is there?

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: It is

4 registered by the EPA for disease control. It

5 is not yet, however, allowed in organic

6 production and so we don't think any organic

7 growers are using it. And we have no way of

8 knowing what other growers might be using it.

9 But that is why they petitioned is so they

10 could have it allowed for organics.

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: As Jean said --

12 CHAIR STONE: Well my question is

13 is commercial agriculture using it? Is it

14 trees? Is it --

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: It is mildew --

16 what were the other -- damping off type

17 diseases and mildew were among the

18 registrations.

19 CHAIR STONE: Okay, that is all I

20 was asking.

21 Jay.

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: As Jean pointed
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1 out, that was not the focus of our

2 conversation because we were just looking at

3 the synthetic/non-synthetic issue.

4 But again, I really don't enjoy

5 disagreeing with Zea, as you all know. I

6 think this is a very serious matter and I

7 don't want to go through the whole history on

8 it. But we, long ago, EPA had expected that

9 the NOP and the NOSB would have dispensed with

10 the use of these lists because EPA has

11 discontinued the lists. We don't have -- and

12 they have retained as a static list, they have

13 retained lists one through -- I guess for us,

14 lists 3 and 4(a) and (b) as a static list

15 because EPA no longer uses that process. They

16 have dispensed with this listing process.

17 So, we have been engaged in a

18 process that we are going to get a report on

19 that during this meeting, that is moving at

20 that glacial whatever speed that is.

21 So, I just think given that it

22 makes sense that we treat this, and I am happy
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1 to do it the way you are suggesting Zea, we

2 treat this as a synthetic ingredient that is

3 identified by OMRI as an ingredient that,

4 whatever you call it, take the word and blurt

5 out, just call it ingredient, impurity,

6 contaminant, whatever it is, the Board is

7 significant enough at a significant enough

8 level that the Board should evaluate it in

9 making a determination on listing or making a

10 determination on whether it should be

11 evaluated or not, given the synthetic/non12 synthetic determination.

13 CHAIR STONE: Okay. It seems like

14 we got to a pause in that conversation. Are

15 you good, Zea?

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: So next, we are

17 going to have a report from Lisa about the

18 Inerts Working Group, which Jay and I both sit

19 on, along with Lisa and Emily Brown-Rosen and

20 two people from the EPA.

21 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Zea. I think

22 that is a good transition into this topic. I
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1 don't have too many slides here, so we will

2 try and zip through them.

3 Okay, as Zea mentioned, this is

4 the membership of the Inerts Working Group.

5 We have two members from the Board, two

6 members of NOP staff and then two individuals

7 from EPA that work specifically on pesticides

8 and inert issues.

9 So, as just a reminder, the new

10 Organic Feed Production Act does indicate that

11 the National List may provide for the use of

12 inerts and pesticides, specifically when they

13 are not classified by EPA as inerts of

14 toxicological concern. And the NOP does have

15 a definition for inert ingredient in the

16 regulations at 205(2), which follows from the

17 definition that EPA uses from FIFRA.

18 And just as a reminder, so inert

19 ingredient refers to other ingredients that

20 are in pesticide products. It is not the same

21 as something that is chemically or

22 biologically inert. It is used for common
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1 language.

2 So, the rule as it currently is

3 listed, we do allow for the use of List 4

4 inerts, which are those chemical ingredients

5 that had been previously classified by EPA as

6 either 4(a) or 4(b). So, those allowance for

7 List 4 on both the crop portion of the

8 National List at 205.601(m) and the livestock

9 portion at 205.603(e). We also have an

10 allowance for the List 3 inert ingredients but

11 only allowed in passive pheromone dispensers

12 at 205.601(m).

13 Both List 3 and List 4 allowances

14 are subject to Sunset review. The next coming

15 Sunset review is October 2014 for List 4. So,

16 some action will need to be taken before then.

17 Okay so again, the issue is that

18 EPA had put inerts into these lists according

19 to their toxicology and use patterns as part

20 of a reassessment that they were doing. But

21 they completed that reassessment in 2006 and

22 they no longer use those or maintain those
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1 Lists 1 through 4. But because of the way our

2 regulations cite them, we are still operating

3 with those obsolete lists of inerts, which

4 were last updated in August 2004.

5 Since that time, we have been

6 receiving and continuing to receive petitions

7 for the use of inerts that were not captured

8 on those old lists.

9 And just a brief history. In

10 April of 2010, we had the first Board

11 recommendation about inerts which asked NOP to

12 work with EPA for more review of inerts and

13 give various options for collaboration, for

14 review and listing.

15 In October 2010, the NOSB reviewed

16 the existing listing for List for inerts

17 because it was up for Sunset. And in December

18 2010, following that meeting, the Inerts

19 Working Group was established.

20 In October 2012, the Board issued

21 a recommendation which proposed a policy to

22 review all known inert ingredients by groups,
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1 with individual inclusion on the National

2 List, that is individual listings on the

3 National List. Since that time, the Inerts

4 Working Group has worked to develop and look

5 at data on known inerts that are in use and

6 how to group those for categorical review.

7 We have developed a plan for

8 public notification and comment. It is a

9 complicated topic, so we are still continuing

10 to work through that.

11 In terms of new information that

12 we didn't report last time, between May 2013

13 and April 2014 NOP has met with EPA staff at

14 a different program, which is called Design

15 for the Environment. That is a newer program

16 with EPA that does do review of ingredients.

17 They run a voluntary labeling program for

18 safer chemical products and they publish a

19 Safer Chemical Ingredients List or the acronym

20 is SCIL, S-C-I-L.

21 They also published the detailed

22 criteria for those ingredients on their
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1 website. They do -- the criteria are based

2 categorically. So, they have got criteria for

3 surfactants, criteria for pH adjusters,

4 criteria for key loading agents. So, it is

5 evaluating substances within a specific use in

6 determining which are the safer chemicals that

7 qualify for this list.

8 So, there is a lot of overlap in

9 the criteria under the DfE, Design for the

10 Environment program and what qualifies a

11 chemical for the safer ingredients list. A

12 lot of overlap with some of the criteria that

13 was in the Board recommendation. It doesn't

14 include all of the criteria under OFPA, such

15 as essentiality but a lot of the toxicology

16 and other work is covered under some of the

17 chemicals that have been evaluated for the

18 SCIL list.

19 The Inerts Working Group has

20 reviewed some aspects of the DfE program. We

21 have been exchanging information with EPA on

22 the program, including some questions that
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1 they have responded to. We have some

2 preliminary data on some inerts that are known

3 to be in use in products for organic use. We

4 have shared some of that information with DfE

5 so that we could compare a list of what we

6 know is in use versus those chemicals that

7 have already been reviewed by DfE and

8 determined to qualify as a safer chemical.

9 So, the current status of this

10 work is we are consulting with the Office of

11 General Counsel to see if there is options for

12 collaboration with EPA, in terms of this safer

13 chemical program. They have done a lot of

14 work in grouping chemicals by class in

15 evaluating those chemicals within the context

16 of how they are functioning in a product. We

17 think there is a lot of information that we

18 can glean from that process that directly ties

19 in to the intent of the Board recommendation.

20 The inerts working group has

21 continued meet. Once we get feedback from our

22 Office of General Counsel, if this option is
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1 viable, then next steps would be further

2 consultation with the Board on details of how

3 this arrangement might work. So, we are

4 hoping to have more information to provide at

5 the fall meeting. If this is something that

6 we end up pursuing, of course, there will be

7 public notification and comment to get

8 information from various stakeholders that

9 might be affected. But it looks promising, so

10 we are hopeful that this might be a good

11 option to pursue to avoid some of the

12 duplicative work that might already have been

13 done under this program.

14 Okay, I am happy to answer

15 questions, if there are any.

16 CHAIR STONE: Questions from the

17 Board or qualifications? Jay, anything you

18 want to add?

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, we

20 appreciate all the work that NOP is doing on

21 this topic. It is a really important topic.

22 Obviously, we would like things to move
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1 faster. That is always the case. So,

2 anything we can do to move it along is

3 helpful. Thank you.

4 CHAIR STONE: Thanks. Okay, we

5 are on to Sunset 2015.

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, we're

7 going to move on to the Sunset 2015 items and

8 I think in the interest of time, and because

9 it is posted in the posting, we won't have

10 Lisa give the very much detail about what each

11 one is but the point people will summarize it.

12 I will ask my esteemed colleagues

13 to refrain from making this a soap box about

14 why you are unhappy with the Sunset changes as

15 you present each material.

16 CHAIR STONE: The Chair concurs

17 with that.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Let us start in

19 the order posted with aqueous potassium

20 silicate, which is Jay.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Can I go second?

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: You want to go
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1 second, all right.

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: If you don't

3 mind.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: I don't mind.

5 So, the next one is sodium carbonate

6 peroxyhydrate. My glasses get stuck. And

7 that one is mine, so hold on a second.

8 Okay. Sodium carbonate

9 peroxyhydrate was put on the list in 2007 and

10 so it doesn't have quite as long a history as

11 the things that were adopted with the original

12 National List. It's used as an algaecide and

13 it had technical reports done in 2006 and then

14 we did request another technical report in

15 this year.

16 It was originally put on the list

17 with the annotation that says federal law

18 restricts the use of this substance in food

19 crop production to approved food uses

20 identified on the product label.

21 So, now it is up for Sunset

22 review. And in keeping with trying to get as
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1 much public comment on each item as possible,

2 you will have noticed some change in this

3 posting from how it was in the fall meeting.

4 In the fall meeting, the summary was posted

5 but not the comments from our Subcommittee on

6 what particular issues we would like to see

7 addressed in public comment.

8 So, we were able to formulate on

9 this and the other Sunset materials specific

10 questions that we may have had in terms of

11 that we would like input from the public. For

12 the sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate, the

13 question was we were seeking a comparison of

14 this material to copper sulfate for control of

15 algal scum in rice production and whether it

16 could replace copper sulfate for this use.

17 Unfortunately, we got very little response to

18 this question, except we did get some from the

19 petitioner.

20 We did get in the fall of 2013

21 when we gave no question, we gotten comments

22 from Beyond Pesticides and nine supporters
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1 about removing from the list and one from CCOF

2 to keep the new items on but feeling that

3 there should be more information to respond to

4 in order to present good information back.

5 For this round, we got comments

6 from the petitioner, Biosafe Systems, Beyond

7 Pesticides, OMRI, and Cornucopia. And that is

8 all.

9 And you know what? This isn't the

10 right thing. Hold on one second.

11 (Pause.)

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, the key

13 points raised. The people who were against

14 this material noted that it would found by the

15 NOSB in its 2007 recommendation not to meet

16 the OFPA criteria of essentiality,

17 compatibility with organic production, and

18 impacts on human health and the environment.

19 They pointed out that it is not permitted in

20 organic production internationally.

21 The TR mentioned several materials

22 and alternative practices to reduce algaes in
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1 ponds and rice patties, including rice straw,

2 barley straw, allelopathic plants, and

3 herbivorous fish. And they pointed out that

4 the SCP does not fit into any OFPA categories,

5 SCP being sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate,

6 which I might say SCP from now on.

7 The comments in favor of it

8 included those that it has better control of

9 algae and its breakdown components of water

10 and oxygen than cooper does and it is needed

11 as relief from elemental copper accumulation

12 associated with copper-based compounds.

13 The petitioners input mentioned

14 that in 2014 copper labels have been

15 restricted to a label that is rendered useless

16 when treating algae. Therefore, copper may

17 not even be an option from now on. I will

18 have to look into that more because that was

19 news to me and I did not have a chance to

20 pursue it.

21 Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate has

22 been approved for use in drinking water by the
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1 NSF and also has been kosher certified. And

2 when used in irrigation ponds, sodium

3 carbonate peroxyhydrate has less corrosion

4 issues with irrigation equipment than copper

5 sulfate.

6 Then we got a somewhat neutral

7 comment from OMRI but talking about the

8 annotation. The annotation for this material

9 is confusing and difficult to interpret for

10 products that are manufactured outside the

11 U.S. or labeled for other uses than besides a

12 pesticide or for food crops. The annotation

13 indicates it is restricted to food crops.

14 However, if you are using it as an irrigation

15 cleaner, that wouldn't necessarily have food

16 crops on the label, so it doesn't really make

17 that much sense.

18 And I do agree with their concerns

19 about the annotation whole-heartedly. I'm not

20 sure I have the energy to do a whole petition

21 to get the annotation changed at the same

22 time, but the annotation really is lame on
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1 this one. I am just telling you.

2 So, we have further work to do

3 before we come out with our recommendation.

4 We have not had a chance to discuss in

5 subcommittee where we are going with this. It

6 is very likely that a petition to remove will

7 come forward and then it will come before the

8 whole Board, as we feel is proper for a

9 material that definitely has unresolved

10 issues.

11 The further work that I have to do

12 or we, as a subcommittee, include the fact

13 that I think we got very little grower comment

14 because SCP spelled out is really a mouthful

15 and growers have no idea that that is actually

16 in the product that they may have been using.

17 And so, unless you name the brand name product

18 to growers and say what do you think about

19 this brand name, they are not going to know.

20 And so, granted, we, even at CCOF, could do a

21 better job because we send out to the affected

22 members yes, comment on this but we did not
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1 name the brand names in ours.

2 However, we did, now that we can

3 link into the material use for our growers,

4 pull up collective data, we have 34 clients

5 who use materials that this is the main

6 ingredient. I believe we have five different

7 compound -- five brand name products with this

8 as the active ingredient, although by far, the

9 most use is one of the brand names of those

10 five.

11 So, we need to take a look at who

12 those growers are, what they are using it for

13 and whether there are valid things to

14 alternatives. We clearly need to look further

15 at whether these new copper restrictions will

16 make a difference in the need for this

17 material and whether it will start being used

18 more. It only has been registered in rice

19 since 2010 and probably that registration,

20 there is a very short window in the spring

21 when this is needed. And if the registration

22 came later in the year, then that it wasn't
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1 even used in the 2010 growing season. So,

2 that leaves only three years when it could

3 have been used so far and we have to look into

4 whether it has actually been used.

5 So, we do have more work to do but

6 this one will come back, according to our

7 Sunset review, in the fall.

8 CHAIR STONE: Any questions for

9 Zea?

10 The process, so, this is the first

11 full review. We have asked for public

12 comment. As Zea mentioned, we got a

13 smattering on this one but this is the

14 opportunity for us to fully flesh out any

15 issues, so that it can be taken back to the

16 committee so that when it comes back in the

17 fall, there is no surprises. The Committee

18 can do its work thoroughly so that the new

19 process -- people may not like the new process

20 but this is what we are given and this is how

21 we are going to make it work. So, this is the

22 time for us to flesh it out.
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1 Okay. Jean, I'm sorry.

2 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I would just

3 concur with what Zea was saying about the fact

4 that, as I read through this material, it

5 definitely needs to have a petition to change

6 because of the annotation. And so, I would

7 assume we would seem -- it would be

8 interesting to see further information on that

9 as you go through your analysis in

10 subcommittee.

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: The thing is no

12 one in the audience or the committee has any

13 incentive to put in a petition to change the

14 annotation.

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes, I know.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: So, if we can

17 get it done in a timely way -- I mean really,

18 it just should be removed, in my opinion.

19 CHAIR STONE: Melissa?

20 DR. BAILEY: Yes, thanks. I just

21 wanted to remind the Board that under the

22 Sunset process, this is the time for those
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1 members, who may not be on the Corps

2 Subcommittee, to voice their perspective to

3 the Subcommittee, including whether you feel

4 for the next meeting that they should consider

5 a proposal to remove. So, just pointing that

6 out, since this is our first time in the

7 process.

8 CHAIR STONE: That was what I was

9 trying to say but I think you said it better.

10 Jean.

11 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So, I am not

12 on the Crops Subcommittee and I would

13 certainly be supporting a proposal to -- a

14 recommendation to remove.

15 CHAIR STONE: Calvin?

16 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes, I would

17 concur seeing a proposal.

18 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Everybody

19 good? Okay, thank you much.

20 So, we are going to go -- I'm

21 sorry. Calvin.

22 SECRETARY WALKER: Jean and I had
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1 suggested seeing a proposal for removal. So

2 what is the outcome? Does that mean that the

3 Crops Committee --

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: It goes back to

5 the committee and we will take that up.

6 SECRETARY WALKER: So, it is not a

7 definite. It is up to you all still to

8 decide.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Like I said, we

10 will take it up. I imagine that will come

11 from within the Subcommittee, as well.

12 CHAIR STONE: Melissa.

13 DR. BAILEY: Yes, for both Jean

14 and Calvin, it may be helpful to the

15 Subcommittee if you elaborate on your

16 perspective of why you would like them to

17 consider removal, just for their own

18 deliberations.

19 MEMBER RICHARDSON: It would seem

20 to me looking at it, I would concur with the

21 comments that were put in by OMRI that the

22 language in the annotation sort of makes it
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1 impossible to really adequately assure that

2 this material follows U.S. federal law when it

3 is being used in other places. That would be

4 one of the issues that would seem to me to be

5 of considerable concern.

6 CHAIR STONE: So, what I'm also

7 seeing here is it is not only important for

8 the community to weigh in when they see this

9 first notice and we are trying to sort of

10 advertise that as well, but also for committee

11 members to take this first -- non-subcommittee

12 members to take this and be sure that we vet

13 it, as individuals, to bring back to the

14 committee, so that this process can work as

15 well as it can.

16 So, this is our first trial

17 balloon and I appreciate everybody working

18 through it. Anything else on this material?

19 Yes, Jay.

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, I don't

21 know again if this is something that is

22 feasible in the time frame but I think in
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1 order to elicit input from the grower

2 community along the lines that Zea suggested

3 if there was a mechanism in place to receive

4 that information through a docket or something

5 of that sort.

6 If we don't, the likelihood is

7 pretty high that new substantive information

8 will come up at the next meeting that would

9 force us to postpone. My assumption is that,

10 though, that if we postpone and don't take

11 action that it remains on the list. Is that

12 correct, if we go past the 2015 deadline?

13 MR. McEVOY: Yes, as we presented

14 yesterday, the process is is that your

15 responsibility is to complete the review. So,

16 once the review is complete, then you complete

17 part of the Sunset process and then the next

18 step in the process is for the program to

19 potentially renew that substance if it

20 continues to meet the criteria.

21 CHAIR STONE: Okay.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, we are
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1 ready for aqueous potassium silicate.

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. Okay,

3 so I tried to do this one.

4 The summary of uses are here:

5 insecticide, acaricide and plant disease

6 control. Currently listed on 601(e) and

7 601(i) as aqueous potassium silicate, the

8 silica -- and this is the annotation -- used

9 in the manufacture of potassium silicate must

10 be sourced from naturally occurring sand.

11 There is a technical report in

12 2003 and 2014. Petitions originally, I guess

13 in 2004 and a supplemental in 2006. Action by

14 the NOSB, a review and recommendation for

15 addition to the National List came in November

16 of 2007 and the proposed rule was published in

17 2009, added to the National List in 2010, and

18 the Sunset date is 2015, as we know.

19 So, the Subcommittee had a bunch

20 of questions that it put out the community and

21 I hope you have all seen this already but

22 potassium silicate -- should I go through all
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1 this?

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Don't read the

3 whole thing.

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. So, there

5 were questions about the technical report,

6 which discussed the impact of silicate on the

7 availability of micronutrients. In fact, on

8 plant tissues there is a question of about

9 foliar application and the different uses

10 employing mitigation strategies in

11 consideration of these impacts. How should

12 the NOSB weigh this impact on the nutritive

13 value of treated plants? That was one of our

14 questions.

15 Okay, now the next slide, I

16 actually will go back to the public comments,

17 just to finish off the other questions from

18 the Subcommittee. Can organic management

19 systems conserve and build available silicon

20 in the soil in a way that can serve as

21 alternative to potassium silicate? The 2014

22 TR suggests that the following alternative
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1 practices exist. And this is where we need

2 grower input.

3 Ideally, what we need is grower

4 input at this meeting, really, but we have to

5 figure out a mechanism to get that. The

6 Subcommittee is interested in comments

7 concerning non-synthetic materials and

8 practices being used in the field.

9 So, what we heard -- oops. Oh,

10 well. I can't get that slide up. I have this

11 slide here on public comments. Can you move

12 it back one? Is that possible? Oops. Back

13 one. Thank you. Thanks, Lisa.

14 So, as you can see, we didn't get

15 a lot of comments. One grower in CCOF, Beyond

16 Pesticides, Cornucopia, California Safe

17 Schools, and five individuals. The comments

18 we got were APS, which is the acronym for

19 aqueous potassium silicate, enters the soil

20 from plant treatment and is indistinguishable

21 from silicates already present in the ground.

22 APS is used as a foliar application, not for
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1 roots. Management systems can be used to

2 build the silicon in the soil to improve the

3 plants' resistance to disease and reducing the

4 likelihood of needing a pesticide treatment.

5 However, when an infestation occurs and a

6 treatment is required, APS should be an

7 available option for organic farmers.

8 Information is needed on

9 accumulation of silicon plants. International

10 standards do not allow APS in crop production

11 and organic methods of soil conservation make

12 its use unnecessary.

13 So, obviously, you can see the

14 grower perspective of being toward the top of

15 these bullets and the sort of environmental

16 concerns being raised at the bottom, bottom

17 three of the bullets.

18 And that is about it. Back to

19 you, Mac.

20 CHAIR STONE: Questions or

21 comments from other Board members, other

22 committee members? Zea.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, again,

2 this suffers from the fact that people know it

3 by the brand name probably more than they know

4 it by the name we know it by. And so, that is

5 one reason why we get low grower response.

6 And granted, this is our first

7 time running through the Sunsets this way and

8 so even with the two meeting, because the

9 canceled meeting, format, there wasn't enough

10 time to fully reach out to all the growers to

11 get it clear. But from the limited

12 conversations I started to have with growers,

13 I have actually never seen this being used on

14 an inspection. And the growers have indicated

15 that it is a highly alkaline material when

16 they put it into their tank to mix it. And

17 so, therefore, it needs really extensive

18 buffering that varies a lot compared to what

19 your water situation is. And if you don't

20 buffer it just right, it hurts, you see

21 phytotoxic damage from the alkalinity on the

22 plants.
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1 And so for these reasons, I

2 suspect it is not very widely used. And I

3 think the fact that the petitioner didn't show

4 up also might indicate that they are not

5 having -- it is not very widely used.

6 So, I definitely think this may be

7 a candidate for removal from the list because

8 we really got so limited input on it and

9 because growers don't really talk about it.

10 They are not very likely to write in if they

11 tried it and it burned their plants because it

12 was alkaline. That doesn't mean they want it

13 off the list. It means they want everything

14 in their toolbox but that wasn't really one of

15 the things that was good. So, I just don't

16 know how much we will hear about it in the

17 future.

18 But I will try, between now and

19 the next meeting, to survey our growers and

20 see what we get further.

21 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

22 MEMBER RICHARDSON: My questions,
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1 I am not on the Crops Subcommittee, so based

2 on the very limited information that presently

3 we have in hand, I don't really see that it is

4 a -- it doesn't appear to have a high level of

5 essentiality. I am not aware of it when I do

6 inspections, myself, in the northeast, but

7 that is a limited area to look in, and

8 geographically it may well vary in terms of

9 where it is being applied and used, which

10 would be important information to have.

11 Absent any good sign of

12 essentiality, I would be recommending a motion

13 to delist.

14 CHAIR STONE: Okay.

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: Again, if you

16 don't mind. You know maybe we should

17 institute a general meeting of each

18 subcommittee that has sunsets coming up, so

19 all Board members can bring or some other

20 mechanism to bring concerns to the

21 subcommittee and maybe formalize something

22 like that.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Yes, I think it is

2 becoming more apparent the value of non3 subcommittee members paying a lot of attention

4 to these Sunset materials so that this first

5 meeting can garner the attention that it

6 needs. And this was an original concern when

7 this system came up.

8 Yes, I think we need that

9 mechanism and that is part of what we are

10 trying to figure out here and I know that we

11 will.

12 CHAIR STONE: Go ahead Miles.

13 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I think this is

14 maybe where we start looking at some ideas

15 that came out of that NOSB assessment, in

16 terms of maybe a webinar, which could be open

17 to the public, where the Board could have

18 these subcommittee discussions that the whole

19 Board participates in, so that there is a full

20 discussion of these substances and figure out

21 how to move forward.

22 So, we will try to look into some
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1 other alternative ways to keep an open public

2 process for the Sunset review process.

3 MEMBER THICKE: Could I add?

4 CHAIR STONE: Francis.

5 MEMBER THICKE: I would like to

6 add that if we do something like that, that in

7 some way we need to engage the producers.

8 Because the average farmer, we are out there.

9 We are not looking for this kind of

10 engagement. Unless you grab a hold of us

11 somehow, we are not going to know.

12 CHAIR STONE: Well, and certifiers

13 have databases. They are getting more

14 sophisticated in their databases and the ACAs

15 can be a big benefit here at the risk of their

16 time.

17 Zea.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, actually,

19 I just wanted to reemphasize that point. If

20 perhaps Pat or other certifiers in the room,

21 each time we have a sense that material could

22 call out to the group for if they know how
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1 many of their clients use a material, they

2 could come up with it. Like they have started

3 doing for handling, they will often survey how

4 many of your processors or using this or not.

5 If they know that information for crops use

6 materials that are sunsetting, it is

7 definitely good to know how much the materials

8 on the list that aren't obvious ones are being

9 used in the field. And maybe we could get

10 that information in.

11 CHAIR STONE: Because the

12 certifiers can use brand names. It's just

13 that we can't because of our situation.

14 Okay, last one.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Last we have

16 sulfurous acid and that would be Colehour.

17 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay, thank you.

18 I thought I was going to be the first of the

19 Sunset ones but now I am the last thing of the

20 day. So, either way I was going to go pretty

21 quick, frankly, but we will talk about it as

22 we need. Thank you, Zea.
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1 Sulfurous acid is coming to

2 Sunset. So, it is 205.601(j), just so you

3 know.

4 So, just to make sure that people

5 are, to some degree, up to speed, I think I

6 personally find this a little bit confusing

7 because it has gone from the subcommittee to

8 now it is everybody. But what has everybody

9 even thought about about it?

10 So, the listing is sulfurous acid

11 is the name given to water that has been

12 sprayed through smoke and fumes produced by

13 burning elemental sulfur. And the primary

14 purpose of sulfurous acid is reducing the pH

15 of irrigation water to alleviate the effects

16 of specific saline or sodic soil conditions or

17 the effects caused by saline or sodic

18 irrigation. Otherwise stated, acidified

19 irrigation water used to adjust soil pH into

20 the acidic range.

21 And you know we have had some live

22 testimony anyway, so I don't think you know
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1 nothing about it. But a little bit more

2 history is that elemental sulfur was once

3 mined from salt domes but now residual sulfur

4 is removed from petroleum, natural gas, and

5 coal by the quote unquote Claus process, which

6 is the most significant gas desulfurizing

7 process recovering elemental sulfur from

8 gaseous hydrogen sulfide. And it was patented

9 first in 1883 by a scientist Carl Friedrich

10 Claus. So, just so you have that.

11 So, we determined that the TR,

12 which I think I have the date here -- sorry,

13 I thought it was going to be mentioned but

14 this is fine -- 2010 TR. We pursued an

15 updated TR, so we got one in 2013 but asked

16 some follow-up questions, so it was finalized

17 a few months ago, early 2014.

18 And I think it is in the packet of

19 information. I don't know how much people

20 have looked at it but I don't have a slide but

21 I tried to summarize the fact that in

22 preparation for the meeting, we determined
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1 that there were still some question areas that

2 we wanted more input from the public on that

3 were put forth.

4 And my summary is that the first

5 question is if or how the sulfurous acid

6 transforms to sulfate and the crop

7 availability, along with how farmers or

8 certifiers can determine such soil conditions

9 that would result in that process.

10 And the second question that was

11 put forth was regarding the use of sulfurous

12 acid to remedy unsustainable agricultural

13 practices and the implications thereof of a

14 Sunset review process and specifically impact

15 on soil life as notable.

16 So, I am about to even wrap it up

17 here. I think it is worth noting, again,

18 historically, that sulfurous acid is not

19 permitted in other countries' organic systems.

20 From my perspective at least,

21 looking at the whole picture, we did get

22 comment because this was going to be done at
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1 the last meeting. So, if you looked through

2 the public testimony -- the written testimony,

3 we did get comment. And we got -- I don't

4 think it is ridiculously substantial but we

5 got comment for both meetings we did, both the

6 canceled meeting and this meeting.

7 I would say sorry my thing

8 disappeared on me. Sorry.

9 Overall, my general observation is

10 that the comments, and we can divide them into

11 categories, but the testimony was both to

12 delist and to relist on both sides, if you

13 want to view it that way. I think that

14 numerically, there were more, the votes were

15 more for not renewing the listing, again,

16 depending on how one wants to look at that.

17 Several farmers, processor, and

18 the certifier, CCOF, encouraged that sulfurous

19 acids remain on the list. From written

20 testimony and from some of those same people

21 you heard live testimony today in that regard,

22 that there aren't viable alternatives and that
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1 the needs are at hand for its use. I think,

2 you know I am not going to quote who or what

3 all those things were but I think it is worth

4 noting that -- and I did say this to the

5 subcommittee but for me, for whatever reason

6 it stands out, that some kinds of limitations

7 of allowing use only if the pH is verified

8 above seven and/or a statement that it is not

9 permitted in water-logged soils was included

10 in some of that testimony.

11 I think all of the public interest

12 groups that testified representing their

13 members and all of the consumers, and it

14 wasn't a small percentage of the total

15 testimony that submitted written testimony,

16 requested that NOSB delist sulfurous acid, in

17 terms of protecting our soils, the broader

18 environment, and looking at the situational

19 need. I think, at this point in time, that is

20 really a general overview and I am not certain

21 how.

22 If people have comments or
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1 questions, I am happy to do it. Several

2 people who work with Driscols submitted

3 written testimony that we all saw. Like I

4 said, I'm not going to cite all the different

5 ones. But that is all I wanted to go through.

6 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

7 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes, for me,

8 not on the Crops Subcommittee, having read the

9 public comment and listened to the comment

10 today, and noting that elemental sulfur, which

11 it has to meet those characteristics,

12 elemental sulfur, at (j)(2) of what is it 605

13 -- I mean 205.601, it would seem to me that

14 the way in which it is being utilized is

15 appropriate.

16 So, on this one, I would not be

17 suggesting a motion to delist but in fact to

18 keep this one in use, based on the limited

19 range, perhaps, but certainly essentiality and

20 its range of limited use in application.

21 CHAIR STONE: Zea.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Colehour failed
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1 to totally mention this, but all of the

2 growers who commented that they use this did

3 indicate that it improved their soil and

4 contributed in a positive way to their soil

5 situation that they started with and that the

6 sulfate did not contribute any fertilizer

7 value as a plant nutrient, which is in

8 directly answering the questions that we

9 posed, which was very nice that we posed

10 questions and they addressed them.

11 CHAIR STONE: Francis.

12 MEMBER THICKE: Yes, I have got to

13 say from what I heard from the growers, I was

14 pretty impressed with how it worked. And we

15 have got to remember, this is for use in the

16 desert. If you are farming in a desert

17 irrigating, this is not a natural system. And

18 so, we are going to -- it seems like this is

19 pretty -- I was pretty impressed that

20 something like this works better than

21 elemental sulfur, which actually puts sulfur

22 in the ground.
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1 So, I would be hard-pressed to

2 vote against this thing.

3 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: I think, too,

5 along with the other materials that we were

6 just talking about on the 2015, coming from

7 that desert area and being well adverse in

8 this particular process, I think also trying

9 to ferret back out from some of the other

10 growers, they are going to think about it as

11 a sulfur burner, the sulfurous acid. Probably

12 90 percent of those growers aren't even going

13 to -- this is not going to be registering with

14 them. They are going to be talking about

15 their sulfur burners that are burning 99.9

16 percent pure elemental sulfur.

17 So, we probably need to find a way

18 to garner that information, maybe is for the

19 certifiers or somebody else as well. This

20 will be one of the things I think, as we go

21 through this process, we are going to need to

22 try to figure out how do we ferret that
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1 information out and get the word out to the

2 appropriate stakeholders, so that they are

3 aware of it.

4 CHAIR STONE: Miles.

5 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I just wanted to

6 point out that this is an area that -- an

7 international arena. This is sort of similar

8 to the biodegradable mulch situation, where

9 all the other international standards have a

10 positive list of things that can be used but

11 they have a different way of looking at what

12 is allowed and what is not allowed.

13 So, if you look at the EU

14 regulation, in particular, you will see that

15 biodegradable mulch is not on the list of

16 allowed substances. However, it is allowed

17 and used under the European certification

18 system. And this is a similar situation with

19 sulfurous acid. Even though it is not

20 specifically listed as an allowed substance

21 under these international regulations, I think

22 there needs to be some additional looking into
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1 that to see whether or not they consider it

2 something that has to be reviewed because it

3 used to treat the water before application.

4 And there is water treatment that occurs that

5 may not be subject to their particular

6 regulations.

7 We have a meeting with our

8 European colleagues on Monday. We have the

9 European organic working group and this is

10 something that we will bring up and we will

11 report back to the Board about how they look

12 at this particular compound so that can be

13 clarified.

14 CHAIR STONE: Colehour.

15 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, Miles,

16 for that comment. I think that that is very

17 useful but it is just in the moment my first

18 reaction is shouldn't that be something that

19 would be included in the TR. Shouldn't those

20 people, a neutral party, be looking at ways to

21 find out that kind of information or do we

22 need to rephrase or make sure that kind of
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1 questioning is put forth in the TR questions?

2 Because that is hard for, I think, us to know

3 how to do or to do appropriately.

4 I think your point is well taken,

5 though.

6 CHAIR STONE: Okay, anything else?

7 So, the Committee heard some comments from the

8 Board, as well as public testimony.

9 Zea are you good for now as far as

10 the Committee?

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, I think

12 that wraps up.

13 Just for the benefit of the

14 public, though, I do want to say that because

15 we did not start any voting today, we did not

16 have the opportunity to make a conflict of

17 interest declaration, which I am very

18 interested I making before we start voting.

19 And so I will do that before we start doing.

20 CHAIR STONE: Yes, Miles and I

21 talked about that when we started

22 deliberations and knowing that no one had
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1 declared a conflict of interest, anyone on the

2 Board on any of the materials or any of the

3 subjects. We didn't go through that today but

4 certainly we will clarify that and welcome you

5 all to be comfortable with that when we start

6 voting.

7 So, any subcommittee chairs, if

8 you feel the need or something, then we can do

9 that.

10 So, I guess I want to make sure we

11 wrap this up, what we learned today. So,

12 reaching out to the stakeholders, as Harold

13 likes to call it. The different materials are

14 going to have different stakeholders that use

15 different names, that use different materials,

16 that are in different regions and those types

17 of things. So, it is incumbent on us to reach

18 out so that we can do a good job and fulfill

19 our obligation in reviewing these sunset

20 materials in the timely manner that we have to

21 work with.

22 So, any other final thoughts on
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1 this kind of first shot across the bow on the

2 sunset process?

3 Okay, I will remind everyone the

4 reception, you go out the front door of the

5 hotel to the right, down two blocks, take a

6 left and you will find it at 110 Broadway and

7 Houston Street.

8 We will reconvene tomorrow

9 morning at 8:30. Thank you very much.

10 (Whereupon, at 6:06 p.m., the

11 foregoing meeting was adjourned to

12 reconvene at 8:30 a.m. on

13 Thursday, May 1, 2014.)

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

$1,500 262:3

$12 169:9

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353:15 354:12,13

354:18 355:8,9

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126:13 211:9

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118:10 119:10

145:5,8 148:16

158:10 263:3

300:22 308:13

316:2 326:9 327:4

370:20 429:19

432:22

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approving 391:17

approximately

52:10 165:14

April 1:7 183:2

423:10 424:13

APS 315:3,17,18,21

316:2,10 444:18

444:22 445:6,10

aquaculture 81:5,7

81:8,10 82:11

83:22 84:4 85:18

89:21,22 90:2,5

90:14,20 91:6

92:16 112:13

135:11,18,22

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226:8,11 231:9,20

233:18,21 234:2,8

234:9,14 235:4,6

235:18 236:3,10

236:11,20 239:8

312:22 316:4,13

aquatic 55:2,7,11

81:16 82:5,13

84:2 92:6 234:17

312:18 413:4,7

415:20

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314:20 315:2,15

428:19 442:1,7

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arbitrary 49:20

area 7:13,19 8:22

10:20 27:3 105:9

116:19 117:1

152:15 161:20

185:17 258:18

415:21 448:7

459:7 460:6

areas 14:12 116:4

176:14 269:7

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arena 460:7

argue 40:20 206:22

219:2 284:12

arguments 123:19

Arkansas/Texas

152:14

arm 287:7 293:9

arrangement 427:3

Arsenault 2:13

122:9

artificial 289:19

artistic 240:1

ASC 219:20 220:3

221:13 222:3,9,22

Ashby 4:13 333:5

338:20,21 339:3

342:5

Ashby's 333:3

Ashley 3:19 179:8

188:16,20

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hate 31:2 240:21

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Innovations 202:18

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inoculant 269:13

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inserting 382:3

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instructions 10:4

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irrigation 59:7,9

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issue 29:6,21 30:12

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270:16 274:17,19

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73:21 79:12 81:5

81:7,11,21 82:6,9

82:12,13 83:8

89:21 90:2 107:1

107:5 108:10

109:7 110:16

118:10 119:10

124:3 127:18

131:6,6,19,21

132:1,8,16,22

133:6,19 134:10

134:12,16 135:10

135:22 136:2,5

137:22 138:19

162:11 208:13

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234:14,16 235:12

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236:22 240:13

254:1 261:18

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354:9,10 356:19

370:20 371:7

375:17 385:11,13

386:12 387:5

390:6,14 391:22

398:9 399:6,10

400:10 408:4

409:7,15,21

410:21 411:8

430:9 431:21

435:5 444:7 449:4

451:6,7 459:5

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math 177:14 194:9

matter 17:19 40:2

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363:18 370:17

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maximum 152:15

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257:11 328:5

400:7 403:1 409:5

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McManus 366:8

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128:22 129:7,14

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167:6,8 168:7,19

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186:13,16 187:17

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218:14 224:7

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243:21 246:18,19

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252:11 265:15

267:11 269:4

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298:4,18 305:5,16

305:21 306:11

309:12 310:1,15

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319:13 328:22

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362:11 363:11,21

364:19 365:19

368:20 369:11

371:12 372:12

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378:16,19 381:15

381:20 382:18,21

383:2 385:2

387:15 388:9

394:7 397:2,7,21

398:16,19 399:2

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403:10 404:5,10

404:12,17,20

405:5,8,11,13

406:8 410:5 414:6

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420:16 427:19

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457:22 458:12

459:4 461:15

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74:6 84:10 85:3,6

87:4 92:22 101:17

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110:10 112:10

113:10 139:11

141:20 146:7

180:22 181:1

183:8 189:16

190:3,20 191:21

194:6 195:2 199:9

247:14 249:11

253:11 291:7,19

313:11,14 317:4

322:7 335:20

356:3,3 382:17

387:3 397:11

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membership 63:8

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mere 209:20

merely 275:15

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mild 217:9

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Mill 242:12

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mills 141:8 148:18

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mimics 117:2

mind 35:6 131:17

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minds 416:9

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minimal 19:10

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minimizing 292:5

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Minneapolis

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minute 10:14 69:7

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minutes 48:10

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misrepresented

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mission 20:10,13

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74:16 81:6,9,22

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136:4 137:6 138:8

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280:22 281:12

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Nearings 95:9

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necessarily 59:10

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148:21,22 152:6

155:7 162:7,13

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178:13 190:8

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nice 7:17 96:4

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noise 203:14

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non-antibiotic

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non-caged 157:6

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non-dairy 296:2

non-economic

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non-GMO 9:8

88:16 311:4

non-native 92:10

non-organic 63:20

65:16 67:3,14,18

68:17 87:15,16

203:17 226:20

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non-sanitary

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non-subcommittee

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381:4 388:19

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232:5,8 236:4

238:1

people 12:18 17:15

33:13 50:9 85:10

96:4 98:5 100:11

106:3 132:5 146:7

153:6 159:1

163:12 164:16

170:4 181:4

184:16 214:8

215:15 217:14

229:12 242:11

243:4 268:10

269:18,20 270:13

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319:9 320:3,8

321:9 339:5,12,22

340:7,11 353:9

355:22 357:12,15

358:13 364:22

365:1,6,12 367:21

374:4 376:8,9

381:10 382:3

396:14 399:19

400:22 420:20

428:11 431:13

436:19 446:2

452:4 453:19

455:20 456:22

457:2 461:20

perceives 141:20

percent 24:5 34:19

37:18 63:19 83:18

120:5,7 148:12,22

152:18 162:3

164:3,3 165:9

170:9,9,10,14

172:21 173:1,17

173:19 174:10,11

175:5,20 176:3,5

177:8,12 178:20

191:7 192:4 194:8

241:6,8,9,14

262:11 267:7

302:3,4 386:3

459:12,16

percentage 116:2

168:11 170:7

285:18 456:14

perception 137:22

197:15 363:13

perennial 20:4

279:11 368:4

perfect 245:17

273:6 322:1

335:14 359:21

373:16 415:8

perfectly 237:3

perform 112:19

208:19

performance

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Permanent 248:10

permitted 52:21

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peroxide 213:13

peroxyhydrate

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311:6,14 429:6,9

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perpetuate 184:3

perpetuity 79:14

persistent 275:2

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person 299:5 346:4

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personal 34:17

70:3,11,14 71:3

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personally 206:8

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138:3 185:6

399:17 438:2

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pest 124:5 271:18

279:13,14 280:6

pesticide 49:6

53:16 59:11 87:8

271:1 392:7

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pesticides 49:4

206:7 327:11

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351:7 392:1 393:1

408:5 409:2

411:11 421:7,12

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pests 277:19

pet 192:19

petal 126:7

Peter 48:16

Peterson 3:17

140:14 150:10,12

150:17 154:2,7

155:15 159:3

petition 21:14

23:20 24:3 25:10

32:21 37:3 40:12

40:17,22 41:4,22

47:4 53:11 62:22

63:1,9 64:1 82:6

135:12 189:5

208:16 219:10

224:8 273:10

289:14 297:1

301:12 304:1

319:10 326:9,21

327:2,4 329:17

346:14 347:10,17

351:3,4 353:4

377:22 378:8,9,21

379:12 387:19,22

391:10 393:15

405:17,22 406:11

433:20 434:6

437:5,13

petitioned 40:15

53:16 65:2 107:1

135:22 329:11

377:19 378:4,20

379:2 387:16

405:14 416:20,21

417:2 418:9

petitioner 36:18

40:17 118:6 286:4

325:20 326:5

347:21,22 387:20

430:19 431:6

447:3

petitioner's 308:4

417:18

petitioners 136:18

432:13

petitioning 410:19

petitions 39:7

325:13 327:16,20

328:2 329:3,10

349:20 423:6

442:12

petroleum 453:4

pH 53:14 115:3,9

116:1 119:16

120:12,13 213:16

398:7 399:9 425:3

452:14,19 456:7

Ph.D 21:3

phase 142:4 352:11

phased 32:16,17

phasing 367:19

pheromone 422:11

Phew 337:9

philosopher 293:7

philosophical

98:19 364:4

phones 245:21

phosphoric 55:8

photograph 231:3

physical 204:2

277:19

physician 365:5

phytotoxic 446:21

pick 47:16 155:6

200:9

picture 333:18

340:2 367:8

454:21

pictures 202:16

203:10,11 205:22

piece 104:9 294:18

367:2

pieces 56:3

Pierce 3:17 4:3

150:11 156:3,5,9

161:12 163:6,11

164:8 224:17

233:8,11,12 238:6

239:19

Pink 22:11 266:15

269:18

pins 102:13

pipelines 231:12

pit 231:12

place 24:20 81:2

86:16 100:3 147:7

156:12 159:22

174:22 179:7

182:16 183:12

185:10 274:13

312:14 355:8

357:2 381:2,5

411:20,22 416:16

416:17,18 441:3

placebos 263:22

placed 67:2,4,18

places 96:4 137:18

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440:3

placing 81:9 83:13

90:1

plan 103:2 112:9

182:7 230:7 231:3

278:15 279:9,19

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397:14 424:7

planet 50:20

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planète 95:15

planning 397:7

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plant 21:4 33:8

54:18,19 55:2,4,7

55:12 108:5 119:8

234:17 268:16

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364:10 413:4,7

442:5 443:8

444:20 458:7

planting 26:8 270:2

280:2 323:19

plants 81:17 82:6

236:14 312:18

379:5 432:2

443:13 445:3,9

446:22 447:11

play 95:13 247:5

397:4

played 345:13

playing 152:9,21

153:16

plays 255:6

pleading 162:22

please 23:20 34:14

38:18 54:6 84:3

92:15 132:13

138:18 216:4

239:18 244:14

245:6,21 278:7

288:3 308:3 315:6

381:19 391:8

397:19 398:18

pleased 103:11

105:1

pleasure 113:7

plow 270:7

plus 55:8 97:19

107:8 170:5 350:5

388:13

plutocracy 51:1

podium 6:9 13:1

20:21 31:20 35:18

36:3 47:10 51:16

62:1 73:7 84:17

89:4 93:5 97:14

101:9 106:9

109:19 113:14

118:3 122:21

130:16 134:21

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156:4 164:10

171:5 179:8

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38:6 45:9 57:1,10

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point-by-point

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point/counterpoint

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pointed 179:20

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pointer 125:11,12

pointing 438:5

points 37:15 73:3

151:10 153:13

202:22 237:21

247:8 249:1,3

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338:16 348:3,4

369:12,19 370:13

408:16 431:13

poisoning 83:17

poisons 335:4

policies 110:16

330:18

policy 8:9 14:16

21:2 36:8 48:19

48:22 49:3,13,19

50:4 57:7,16

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111:7,13 140:18

140:20 184:2

206:6 225:16,19

240:18 252:13,14

287:7 290:7

311:11 316:20

342:2 412:12

416:15,16,18

417:4 423:21

political 137:14

Politically 404:5

pollen 87:18

pollinator 126:14

pollute 230:18

polluted 89:14

228:10

polluter 17:4,14

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polluting 9:5 16:2

pollution 14:13

83:18,20 91:3

92:5 226:12

pome 124:21

Pomona 295:13

ponds 231:22 432:1

433:2

poo 236:7

poorly 220:19

274:18

popular 22:10

population 126:2

190:10

populations 30:8

33:19 91:2 362:17

pork 239:2

portion 134:1,2

386:4 422:7,9

Portland 105:13

357:17

pose 332:19 370:10

posed 392:3 458:9

458:9

poses 15:2 182:20

372:20

position 43:4 57:18

113:6 123:16

160:4 186:1

225:14 348:1

349:5,9,11,13,14

349:19 350:11,19

350:20 353:1

357:7,21 358:8

373:14 380:7

381:22 382:1,2

390:3,21 391:19

409:2

positions 150:21

160:6 339:14

369:15

positive 8:13 69:2

201:6 458:4

460:10

possibility 166:13

381:4 402:9

possible 24:18 25:8

35:7 81:21 125:21

185:19 194:15

249:9 311:19

312:17 332:11

366:8 374:1

394:19 410:3

430:1 444:12

possibly 29:12 44:1

226:8 243:8

331:11 332:3

417:8

post-bloom 127:6

127:10

post-milking

211:12

posted 73:15 388:8

388:16 396:10

399:4 406:7 428:9

428:19 430:4

poster 290:1

posting 428:9 430:3

postpone 38:18

355:15 441:9,10

potassium 4:19

116:15 314:21

315:2,15 428:19

442:1,7,9,22

443:21 444:19

potato 148:4

potatoes 241:22

potential 43:18

83:8 145:3 183:8

199:17 213:10

222:1 354:9 383:5

384:12

potentially 68:13

258:18 327:8

366:5 375:1

441:19

poultry 135:13

136:7 137:8

138:20 139:6

141:1,2,16 142:2

142:6,9,13,20

143:17 145:4,6,10

145:21 146:6,22

147:17,20 150:1

157:2,16 164:19

164:21 166:17

167:1,10 168:1

171:15 172:10,22

173:14 175:19,22

176:19 180:4

181:3,21 182:9,10

186:19 187:4,5,7

187:10,11 188:10

203:2 236:9 239:2

242:3,7 243:9

pound 154:22

158:11,11 176:17

362:1

pounds 115:17

141:14,15 148:20

151:9 152:13,15

152:17 153:3

166:20 174:9

175:17 176:2

177:4 178:11

189:8,8 190:12,13

201:12,12 203:18

203:22 228:1

327:9

power 113:4

292:21 293:5,12

powerful 90:4 97:2

97:2

PowerPoints 5:11

powers 207:13

PPM 110:20

111:14

practical 7:14 9:18

94:4,12 255:6

256:21

practically 111:16

practice 103:4

115:10 135:17

136:5 137:13,16

138:10 155:8

168:20 369:5

practices 23:3

25:18,20,21 30:2

77:1 91:18 103:2

114:10,16 138:16

142:6 190:18

221:7 228:7

236:11 273:3,4

277:8,12,17,20,22

278:6,13 323:18

337:15 352:16,20

353:11 374:1

431:22 444:1,8

454:13

practitioners

236:13

pragmatic 135:8

137:1

Prairie 307:20

309:6 322:20

pre 211:12

precautionary

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precedent 54:7

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preferred 214:12

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pregnant 225:11

preliminary 426:2

premium 180:16

preparation 453:22

prepare 41:22

prepared 253:17

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presence 14:14

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present 1:12 2:9

5:15 23:1 32:11

35:14 48:4 53:18

55:10,15,18 80:13

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109:12 144:9

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393:3 428:15

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presentation 122:7

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presentations

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presented 196:8

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presenter 191:8

presenters 155:13

297:6

presenting 6:1

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presently 82:15

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preserve 183:4

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preserved 148:9

149:4 290:18

president 36:5

126:18 164:20

188:20 202:18

206:9 211:1

presiding 1:11

press 150:18

pressing 337:17

pressure 27:7

64:21 81:9 90:1

130:3,6

pressures 279:14

presumably 273:19

391:11 408:19

pretty 7:13 40:17

202:3 225:2

238:17 333:9

341:5 359:1

403:12 409:3

413:14 441:7

451:20 458:14,19

458:19

prevailing 320:13

prevalent 214:22

prevent 22:19

25:17 33:12 87:16

353:19

preventative

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277:22 278:6,13

prevention 183:18

preventive 277:17

previous 74:5

126:1 175:21

237:22 297:6

357:9 358:4,19

previously 115:1,4

140:22 410:11

422:5

prices 90:12

pride 272:12 275:9

primarily 6:16

12:15 302:15

319:18,20

primary 125:20

133:21 213:4

254:4 272:20

303:8 452:13

prime 261:19

principle 256:4

373:15 374:18

410:17

principles 10:18

39:17 77:15 91:16

256:8 312:1

320:13 341:8

print 75:16

prior 37:6 81:11

90:3 105:12

123:10 124:16

129:9 172:9 219:6

348:13

priorities 7:18

86:22 112:9

288:11

prioritization 7:22

prioritizing 135:21

priority 8:6 112:12

179:18 352:19

private 50:21 97:17

privately 114:4

privy 45:3

prize 243:17

prizes 295:4

proactive 10:15

22:17 183:16

254:6 258:4,13

probably 8:6 94:20

95:4 130:21 131:9

133:6 154:10

157:15 162:2

171:12 174:2,4

177:8,9,11 178:1

178:8 232:16

339:3 367:20

374:6 375:10

412:15 413:16

414:17 435:19

446:3 459:11,17

problem 8:10 17:7

17:9,17 27:15

34:5 42:22 65:9

76:3 116:11 121:7

121:11 128:5,6

142:19 146:2

152:20 168:5

198:6 200:16

217:2 226:10

239:1 250:13

265:7 268:9

270:21 271:1

297:17 332:1

360:4 371:20

375:12 389:15

411:16

problematic 241:15

248:6 365:22

411:17

problems 38:10

60:11 91:7 146:10

175:8 178:21

193:18 220:18

245:22 256:18

275:2 332:7,8,9

363:5 411:11

procedure 48:14

391:8

procedures 41:9

86:16 99:2 110:19

111:20 208:1,16

208:18 247:4

277:9 278:11

329:20

proceed 330:7

proceeding 44:21

229:17

proceedings 329:4

process 42:2 47:5

48:11 50:6 53:1

73:13,16,18 74:10

74:15 75:4 78:21

79:11 86:19 99:20

100:10,17,21

101:4 105:2,16

107:13 108:9,20

110:22 111:4

115:3 119:3 133:1

133:3,19 134:6,15

137:12 139:20,21

166:14,22 167:19

188:7 198:8

230:15 249:13

261:5 283:5

300:18 301:14

304:20 311:10

315:10 326:18,22

332:17 336:13

344:3 375:20

382:5 383:12,17

383:18,20,21

384:19 389:9,11

389:16 391:3

406:13 411:19,22

413:10,17 419:15

419:16,18 426:18

436:10,19,19

437:22 438:7

440:14 441:14,17

441:18 450:2,2

453:5,7 454:9,14

459:8,21 464:2

process-based

138:1 323:7

processed 39:16

42:13 132:18

processes 43:6

52:19 83:5 107:7

107:12 133:1,17

325:17 362:20

389:7

processing 54:21

82:16 93:7 97:19

107:3 298:6 306:5

306:13,17

processor 85:2

455:17

processors 6:16

219:12 331:11

451:4

produce 39:13

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171:19 214:11

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414:13 415:19

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30:6 36:7 37:17

39:8,18 43:8 44:7

74:9 80:20 81:3

86:12 89:9 99:22

107:1 108:18

113:19 118:8

136:2 137:20

141:2 142:4 145:8

148:5 149:15

153:5 155:20

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168:11,13 169:8

169:10,19 172:16

174:7 181:7 182:9

189:20 192:5

202:20 206:20

211:11 230:1

234:18 292:6

295:18 312:8,14

313:8 316:10

326:1 341:15

342:7 347:2

350:14 353:11

354:22 358:1

367:13 368:1

371:5 378:6

380:15 385:22

388:3,22 389:1

399:7 406:3 413:9

418:6 421:10

429:19 430:15

431:17,20 445:10

productive 51:6

173:4 222:2

products 36:17,22

37:14 38:4,12

39:12,16 41:14

42:15 52:11 60:20

65:17 68:2,8,9,14

70:4,11,15,17,19

70:21 71:1,21,22

76:5,13 85:21

86:14 87:3 123:2

165:3 180:19

181:5,13 190:4,5

190:7 212:15

220:1,20 222:13

263:19,20 265:8,9

281:18 285:8

289:18 295:20

296:1,15 297:3

299:6 308:15,18

309:13,17 322:19

326:12 327:8

329:12 330:19

335:10 374:10

395:17 421:20

424:18 426:3

433:10 435:7

professes 275:9

professional 110:2

328:7

professor 200:5

219:17

profound 291:15

program 1:2 2:12

2:16,18 56:19

73:10 79:8,19,20

81:6 85:7 102:9

113:8 124:6

139:22 171:17

206:19 209:12

233:13 234:3

237:14 257:15,19

281:1,13 307:7

314:13 334:12

336:5,10,22 344:9

395:20 396:1

399:19 400:1

401:2,4,6,11,19

401:20 402:6,10

403:3,16 424:14

424:15,17 425:10

425:20,22 426:13

427:13 441:18

Program's 336:17

programs 253:20

334:14

progress 166:2

261:21

progressing 235:11

progression 57:21

66:8

progressive 133:2

prohibit 183:3

289:3 393:7

prohibited 52:13

294:12 312:21

315:19 393:6,13

398:7 399:8

prohibitive 162:10

project 219:10

331:16

proliferation 324:1

324:3

promising 187:18

187:20 427:9

promote 94:3,18

95:20 97:7 171:22

185:11,16,18

312:1

promoted 180:13

promotes 81:15

201:19

promoting 94:12

280:6

promotion 93:20

241:1

promotional

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promotions 331:5

prompt 244:14

promptly 244:15

246:7 343:17

pronunciation

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proof 302:4

proper 57:9 114:22

172:6 187:9

189:14 229:6

272:12 274:13

434:8

properly 129:18

266:20 320:12

353:12

properties 298:13

299:8,11 302:8,16

308:21

prophylactically

369:1 371:15

372:5

proponents 123:19

229:10

proportional 125:5

proposal 4:16,16

4:17,17 7:1,14

72:21 107:17

141:10 182:5

185:21 239:8

285:2 311:13

329:8 347:13,18

348:2 349:14

350:19 351:1,13

351:21 355:10

356:13 375:21

378:11 396:10

406:7 438:5,13,17

439:1

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326:3 328:18

329:13,16 330:1

330:14,17,19,21

331:10,12,16

332:16,22 352:8

366:7 380:21

388:4 391:3,21

408:9 411:22

412:17 422:14,15

423:12,14,22

424:6,16 429:22

436:7,11 441:15

441:16 442:14

450:2 454:14

reviewed 108:16

109:1 277:9 305:8

306:1 329:17

382:10 410:22

417:3 423:15

425:20 426:7

461:2

Reviewer 84:21

283:2

reviewers 103:16

112:22 283:3

315:18

reviewing 57:22

69:16 73:17

240:13 305:21

408:3 463:19

reviews 112:19,20

138:7 273:10

301:3

revigorated 338:1

revised 74:14 93:11

378:12

revision 248:16

revisions 110:21

revisit 348:20

revisited 379:20

revoke 250:20

revoked 251:21

252:10

reward 236:12

rewarding 105:14

rewrote 94:2

rhetoric 95:22

rice 311:20 430:15

432:1,1 435:18

rich 97:1

RICHARDSON

1:19 78:7,11 88:7

88:13,20 89:1

122:6,12 139:4

167:6,8 404:17

415:2 437:2,15

438:11 439:19

447:22 457:7

richer 97:2

rid 154:21 266:22

268:11 339:9

Riddle 49:11 112:2

ridiculous 264:2

ridiculously 455:4

right 12:20 17:16

25:4 31:1 39:16

49:3 51:5 55:16

58:1 62:2,16 68:7

68:19,21 69:10,14

69:18 72:11 79:22

106:5 109:14

134:19 137:19

144:20 148:19

153:16 178:16,16

188:17 200:7,8,21

226:13 227:22

230:17 231:1

233:11 243:18

246:8 251:1

252:15 271:7,13

295:3,5 299:9

324:11 332:2,9

333:2,5 334:1

341:16 344:6

354:11 362:9

365:14 368:14

370:13 386:19

387:11 429:1

431:10 446:20

464:5

rightful 48:7

rightfully 272:11

rights 13:13 293:21

318:21

rigorous 277:3

337:5

rigors 273:8

rigs 231:8

rising 83:13

risk 53:6 83:14

92:7 182:21

323:21 350:15

450:15

risking 87:13

risks 370:8 372:19

373:19

River 140:17 350:6

rivers 83:19 231:2

Riverside 200:7

road 9:11 69:15

95:2

Robert 1:10,13

Robert's 77:19

robust 50:6

rock 114:15

Rockwell 4:10,10

307:14 310:5,6,7

310:8 314:3,6,7,9

314:10

role 13:22 93:20

136:5 183:16

211:6 247:6

287:10,12

roles 206:12 207:1

210:7 291:21

roll 344:18

Romalda 3:10 73:8

80:7,11

room 11:6 192:12

241:7 336:14

345:10 369:8

375:10 450:20

root 23:4

rooted 273:21

roots 94:20 266:17

445:1

rootstocks 26:4,9

28:8 29:8

rotation 242:6,11

276:3 277:17

279:8

rough 168:9

roughly 393:5

round 187:21

288:19 431:5

row 270:8

rule 7:7 41:18 47:6

57:22 58:2 153:1

267:16 289:2

294:7,14 382:13

422:2 442:16

rulemaking 138:8

140:9 252:4,7

384:15

rules 34:16 77:19

89:8 99:2 132:13

143:2 163:1,2

164:3 251:12,18

319:12 341:8

rulings 153:20

ruminant 136:21

rumors 129:15,20

run 95:3 129:21

249:20 262:16

266:16,17 344:2

346:3 354:12

424:17

running 47:19

122:17 134:18

355:17 387:2

396:11 446:7

runoff 230:21

rush 187:7

S

s 166:6

S-C-I-L 424:20

S-E-S-S-I-O-N

245:1

SA 405:19

sad 327:13
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safely 115:13

safer 424:18,19

425:6,11 426:8,12

safety 43:21 44:10

44:19 46:3,8,16

49:5 62:5 70:13

70:16 71:7 126:14

158:21 179:13,14

180:12,21 287:14

287:16 296:6

300:18 301:3,9,17

341:3,9 351:9

365:17

Saint 1:9

sake 90:18

salads 96:6

sale 8:14

sales 249:18 281:19

355:2

saline 452:16,17

salmon 90:8,11

91:13 92:11 225:9

226:17 227:12,21

232:14 238:15

salt 120:19 220:2

220:22 260:21

383:17 384:19

453:3

Salvador 47:11

51:16 52:1

sampling 8:20

San 1:10 36:18

51:7 93:17 96:4,4

sand 442:10

Sanely 95:7

sanitation 294:13

sanitizers 398:8

399:9

sap 274:19

sapiens 283:4

saponification

41:11 64:19 285:3

satisfy 137:1

142:17 152:5

312:10

sausage 235:19

Savannah 196:8

save 87:13 247:21

saved 86:4 342:11

savers 86:1 87:6

saves 367:16

saw 27:3 102:22

175:5 193:14

204:11 205:3

376:20 405:1

413:2 457:3

saying 11:18 55:20

55:21 64:2 65:7

66:22 67:1,21

68:17 139:20

163:12 178:14

196:13 251:5

252:19 263:20

271:10 290:8

351:10 369:4

390:14 416:2

417:5 437:3

says 19:2 53:18

58:16 94:3 271:7

277:21 286:4

362:17 388:16

417:22 429:17

scale 236:16 334:16

387:6

scattered 291:7

scenario 191:3,5

229:4

scenarios 163:9

schedule 5:14

51:20

scheduled 344:10

Schools 444:17

science 80:20

130:20 151:11,15

153:14 203:2

341:2 354:12

365:16 373:19

375:15 376:15

384:18

scientific 120:3

203:1 222:17

301:2,8 308:7

372:18 374:17

415:9

scientifically-bas...

364:5

scientist 123:1

295:10 309:21

325:6 340:22

453:9

scientists 173:12

232:17

SCIL 424:20

425:18

SciReg 405:18

scope 16:7 234:2

330:22 388:5,15

403:17

scorecard 294:20

scores 204:13

Scott 95:8

SCP 311:17,19

312:4,6,9,11,12

312:17 313:7

432:4,5,6 434:14

scraps 172:14

screen 53:3 62:17

scrutinize 75:18

scrutinized 74:8

scrutiny 92:1

411:14

scum 430:15

Sea 13:5

Seaboard 121:1

seafoods 226:6

seal 282:11

searched 165:17

season 22:20

102:21 136:22

348:7 360:18

436:1

seats 344:8

Seattle 358:12,19

seaweed 108:7

SEC 98:8

second 41:11 59:3

60:17 108:1

146:13 191:18

201:18 218:5

244:14 248:3

250:12 262:18

293:3 304:5 393:4

397:3,8,13,14

398:18 399:3

400:3,18 402:2,7

402:7 404:7,9

428:21 429:1,7

431:10 454:10

secondary 128:9,16

133:21

Secondly 102:22

176:7 251:8

seconds 195:11

333:1 338:8,8

secret 113:1

Secretary 1:14

48:17 49:12

111:22 112:4,15

113:4 184:1

207:16,19 209:4

209:10,15,22

210:1 223:11

303:11,15,20

319:10 356:7

395:9 417:13

438:16,22 439:6

secrets 325:17

section 37:3 38:3

46:12 235:17

256:12 271:22

272:16 273:10

278:5 292:17,18

293:1,3 296:9

346:22 378:4

388:1 406:1

sections 282:4

sector 138:17 319:6

sectors 50:22

secure 330:1

security 62:11

see 5:10 7:21 8:4,11

10:1 19:21 30:5

30:17 31:18 34:13

46:19 55:17,22

62:17 63:2 64:15

79:13 103:11

105:4 119:15,16

120:18 125:11

139:7 146:17

151:19 160:9

185:4 191:3

192:20 202:1

203:10,19 204:5,8

220:18 224:5

237:13 241:11

243:2 251:3

260:11 266:2

284:16 287:17,19

290:12 302:14

324:7 329:19

357:12 358:10,11

360:3 362:9

376:21 380:3

384:7 385:3

404:20 416:14

426:11 430:6

437:8 440:8

444:14 445:13

446:20 447:20

448:3 460:14

461:1

seed 8:21 13:8

14:14,15,18,18,19

14:21 15:6,10,10

15:12,13,13,14,15

16:12,14 18:12,13

19:9,10,14,18,22

85:18 86:1,2 87:6

87:7,13,19,22

88:3 154:16

318:12,15,15

321:13 322:21

323:6,15,17,21

324:10,16,16

seeds 9:1 15:1

17:19,21,22 18:2

18:7 19:8,17

seeing 18:15 26:12

26:14 30:7 98:6

146:8,9 152:3
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50:18 115:22

128:6 130:1,8

156:17 158:13,14

159:4 169:2

189:10 193:10

204:18 219:4

226:22 243:14

264:11 266:18

267:19 283:17,19

298:19 299:2

310:20 313:16

322:14 360:2

442:21 446:13

segment 157:22

segmented 233:7

segments 350:16

segue 7:17

select 112:18

211:18 366:9

370:6

selection 167:19

186:18 277:18

selective 135:16

137:21

self-funded 192:1

self-serving 333:19

sell 22:8 212:1

281:18

selling 17:15 160:3

semester 410:7

send 264:3,6

407:16 412:19

434:21

sending 197:4

417:6

sends 39:1

senior 73:10 123:1

135:3 179:11

192:16 283:2

sense 329:14 345:9

373:17 374:12

393:9 399:16

419:22 433:17

450:21

sensible 9:10,14

10:18 11:7 73:14

75:6,9 102:2

105:3,15 106:1

246:22 247:3,9,21

249:11 253:15

254:12 255:2

256:9 330:10

Sensing 331:20

sensitive 42:20

364:22

sensitivity 30:5

sent 7:2 90:5

201:11 202:3

319:7 408:7

separate 56:3,3

251:5

September 180:21

septicemia 228:4

serious 26:6 148:7

181:22 261:10

324:9 375:12

419:6

seriously 236:8

261:8

serve 104:20

118:16 248:12

310:19 319:21

331:8 443:20

served 113:7

164:22 218:15

259:11

serves 184:3

service 1:1 52:4

62:10 77:4 158:18

159:1 240:8

307:16 309:9

317:21 322:13

324:20 328:4,22

services 84:20 85:9

94:5 157:2 164:20

164:21 332:18

334:13

serving 101:13

sesame 242:15

session 51:7

set 20:18 54:8

112:8,16 159:21

206:17 239:4

376:2

setting 8:18 75:9

setup 204:2

seven 155:13

177:15 189:1

194:20 227:6

456:8

seven-year-old

270:5

severe 15:7 83:20

372:8

sewage 228:2,6

SGS 44:12

shake 302:22

shaking 310:13

share 36:20 94:16

157:12 161:4

190:18 226:1

247:7 277:8

291:11 319:16

326:11

shared 156:14

163:19 210:9

426:4

sharing 96:8 122:4

224:8

sheep 34:9

Shifting 138:3

shifts 137:22

ship 114:6 152:10

152:10

shirt 245:15 342:20

343:9

Shit 338:8

shoot 262:13 267:8

268:4

shoots 262:16

short 12:6 41:16

131:20 151:20

173:9 235:19

272:10 335:4

395:22 435:20

shortage 42:4

shortcomings

274:17 337:7

shortened 250:7

shot 464:1

shotgun 292:13

shouldered 15:8

show 46:7 72:12

128:22 133:3

203:9 204:17

272:14 345:7

361:20 362:15

447:3

showed 23:17

123:13 364:15

391:20

showing 23:8

115:21 119:22

120:1 215:4 274:8

showmanship

237:9

shown 137:17

187:1 256:14

348:7 364:10

shows 8:21 34:18

36:13 119:19

180:15 261:17

361:19

shrimp 145:8

227:19

shrinking 157:21

sick 321:7

side 15:22 237:15

340:15

sides 123:20 185:22

340:6 455:12

sight 91:22 345:1

sign 448:11

signals 377:2

signatures 351:3,5

signed 32:21

111:21 112:1

349:20

significant 48:21

54:2 70:21 71:2

159:4 215:4

360:15,20 370:10

370:11 395:21

396:2 420:7,7

453:6

significantly 204:6

249:17 292:22

signing 319:10

silica 442:8

silicate 4:19 314:21

315:3,15 428:20

442:1,7,9,22

443:6,21 444:19

silicates 444:21

silicon 74:20 273:5

443:19 445:2,9

silk 197:22 198:2

similar 54:19

174:20 211:5

389:2 460:7,18

similarities 42:2

225:22

Similarly 316:12

simple 103:19

105:3 203:10

simplicity 94:21

simply 29:18 43:1

95:7 111:6 117:1

204:20 320:16

Simpson 3:21

202:11 206:3,5,6

210:16

sin 150:20

sincere 156:18

sing 102:11

singing 102:19

single 248:3 268:3

268:4 289:17

single-source 198:3

singular 61:15

sink 321:7

sinking 321:4

sir 20:7 117:6,22

126:22 129:4

134:20

sit 17:7 37:20

161:21 420:18

site-specific 81:15
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sits 206:12

sitting 24:1 51:3

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156:8 376:11

situation 42:7,9,10

115:16 127:13

188:13 216:15

258:5,13 264:18

268:13 446:19

451:13 458:5

460:8,18

situational 221:5

456:18

situations 82:19

221:12,18 222:3

222:22 223:21

230:12 298:6

six 124:19 133:9,9

155:12 219:11

350:3 376:6

379:10 398:12

Sixty 83:18

size 12:8

sizes 12:9 136:13

139:7 158:4

189:21

skills 139:12

skim 241:21

skin 213:19

slice 68:4

slide 36:13 392:13

443:15 444:10,11

453:20

slides 118:12,15

133:4 421:1

Sligh 292:11

slight 216:9 355:6

slightly 415:7

slim 327:6

slot 5:22

slots 344:12

slow 249:14

slower 186:19

slowing 187:2

small 106:13

117:15 139:8

149:21 151:19

157:5,7,9,14

160:15 167:16

189:21 192:2

199:21 202:19

236:16 285:18

321:12 326:19

379:6 380:1,15

456:14

small-scale 140:21

smaller 26:10

125:6 136:10

149:12 151:2

386:5

smattering 436:13

smell 96:7 216:10

217:15

smoke 452:12

smokehouse

235:19

snowball 267:15

SO2 118:18,19

soap 428:13

social 95:14 337:3

society 225:19

321:10 346:20

351:8 357:18

359:8 372:17

375:6

sodic 452:16,17

sodium 4:19 53:13

53:18 54:3 58:8

58:17 59:4 64:19

108:11 116:3

211:10 213:22

214:15 215:3,8,22

216:6 217:5,10

218:22 311:5,14

406:18 407:22

412:4 414:12

429:5,8 430:12

432:5,21 433:2

soil 55:4,11 89:13

96:7 114:11,14,18

115:2,3,21 116:1

116:3,9 132:19,19

134:4,6 273:19

321:13 361:4

362:14,15 363:1

373:3 443:20

444:19 445:2,11

452:16,19 454:8

454:15 458:3,4

soils 115:8 116:13

116:17 121:2,3,4

121:8 379:5 456:9

456:17

sold 37:21

Soldier 144:19

145:2 148:17

182:14 185:1

187:22 197:13,20

solely 87:17

solid 134:2 262:1

409:16

soluble 315:19

solution 38:14

65:21 66:9 68:16

324:17 332:10

341:19 361:11

solutions 71:16

286:3,7

solve 46:16 65:8

155:3 337:16

solved 43:1

solvers 332:2

somatic 221:20

somebody 30:16

79:3 195:3 268:15

339:17 459:19

somewhat 94:22

414:17 433:6

Sonnabend 1:19

4:15 17:1 58:5

117:8 127:16

144:13 184:8,12

197:7 237:20

298:4 344:20

345:15 355:12

363:11 372:12

377:14 378:16

381:15,20 382:21

385:2 387:15

388:9 397:7,21

399:2 404:10,12

404:20 405:5,8,11

405:13 406:8

416:12 418:3,15

420:16 428:6,18

428:22 429:4

431:12 437:11,16

439:4,9 441:22

443:2 446:1

450:18 451:15

457:22 462:11

sons 90:9 225:2

soon 72:10 79:4

144:19 243:2

249:8 394:19

sophisticated

450:14

Soprano 293:7

sorry 11:15 20:6

55:9 56:6 134:17

144:12 155:9

184:11 186:12

220:8 303:13

306:10 355:18

363:11 379:1

382:18 383:15

399:20 437:1

438:21 453:12

455:7,8

sort 11:6 29:20

61:9 94:21 170:10

224:22 238:19

279:2 286:10

322:8 344:14

357:11 362:13

367:13 411:12

416:2 439:22

440:9 441:5

445:15 460:7

sorts 389:18

sound 9:9,14,18

11:7 73:14 75:6

94:12 102:2

105:15 106:1

135:8 136:4

227:22 246:22

247:3,8,20 249:10

253:15 254:12

255:1 256:8

330:10 385:17

sounds 10:17

386:20

source 14:13 69:9

116:17 118:18

159:17 196:2

197:14 199:18,19

220:12 320:20

sourced 67:6

442:10

sources 44:2 52:19

53:8 114:21

147:13,15 149:1

176:15,16 182:15

194:16 197:14

sourcing 195:8

South 85:10 264:4

264:5

south-central

156:10 157:10

soy 142:8 150:18

150:19 159:9

163:13 308:19

soybean 193:22

soybean-based

242:3

soybeans 242:7

space 143:4,7 167:2

292:5

speak 35:9 44:17

70:12 84:9 92:21

109:11 186:1,2

202:14 210:21

262:2 276:15

278:20,21 306:4

313:10 317:4

381:21

speaker 163:15

357:16

speakers 47:17

172:7

speaking 122:1

141:3 171:10,13

253:8 286:3

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Specialist 2:14

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specialize 314:14

specialty 140:20

150:18

species 92:7,9

172:22 175:19,22

176:19 232:4,10

277:18 362:18

specific 6:5 27:12

30:11,13 116:18

207:22 208:20

216:20 253:18

257:4,6,14 258:9

284:13 288:21

309:13 349:18

371:17 387:5

399:4 425:5 430:9

452:16

specifically 42:16

82:5 86:22 117:17

130:8 147:18

156:21 171:13

175:16 197:19

200:3 276:17

362:17 400:17

421:7,12 454:14

460:20

specifications 46:5

46:6

specifics 139:14

298:5

spectrum 212:7

214:2,15,22

311:22

speculation 203:14

sped 187:4

speed 184:11

419:20 452:5

spelled 434:14

spend 60:6 173:3

196:3 211:3

spending 354:17,17

412:1

spent 211:4 225:20

262:3 354:15

366:18

spiral 363:1

spirit 14:2 320:1

spite 197:9

splits 118:20

splitting 29:20

64:21

spoiled 249:20

spoke 12:3

spray 33:21 49:8

260:19 262:9

269:21 270:1

368:13 369:3

sprayed 34:2,10

266:19 452:12

spraying 23:1

263:12 365:3

368:22 371:15

sprays 264:15

368:11

spread 50:19 87:13

153:7 311:1

spreads 232:8

spring 85:12 349:1

350:2 379:9

435:20

spur 268:3

spurs 267:7

square 97:19 143:3

143:6,11 159:20

162:1,18 165:15

203:11,20

squared 5:11

squeezing 292:4

stabilizer 295:21

308:22

stable 273:22

stacked 342:16

staff 2:9 10:10,10

77:5 84:10 88:18

92:22 101:18

109:12,14 206:6

255:20 283:21

292:19 298:11

313:11 317:4

328:5,22 421:6

424:13

stage 155:16

310:21

stages 153:5 389:6

staggers 198:19

stakeholder 275:12

stakeholders 10:3

16:14 45:16,18

86:11 110:15

111:10 256:22

274:18 330:5

353:5 354:16,21

357:1 369:22,22

371:9 427:8 460:2

463:12,14

stalks 23:4

stall 179:19 181:15

stamp 231:15

stance 141:6 258:4

336:16

stand 199:4 293:14

318:5 320:12

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229:22 230:14

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313:10 314:17

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365:19 372:16

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422:6

4(b) 56:16 416:17

416:22 417:2

422:6

4,000 158:5

40 36:15 160:16

202:19 314:12

40,000 158:6

400 266:18

405 4:17

424 351:1

428 4:19

43 143:3

442 4:19

45 188:22

451 4:20

464 4:22

47 3:8

49 135:5

5

5 3:4

5,000 151:4

5.6 119:17,20,20

120:22

50 34:18 94:15

160:16 165:9

172:22 174:4

175:19 176:3

194:7

500 115:17

5033 107:19
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5034 107:20

5034-1 399:7

509 256:13

51 3:8

56 169:16

58 157:18 169:16

6

6 3:5

6,500 135:4

6:00 344:11

6:06 464:10

60 157:6 158:3

170:9 172:21

177:11 262:11

267:6

600 115:17 146:7

235:17

600,000 92:10

601 273:12 393:6

393:10

601(e) 442:6

601(i) 442:7

602 393:6

603 219:1 221:1

605 38:14 42:19

219:21 220:5,22

341:22 457:12

605(b) 38:9 66:5

67:10,21

606 46:12 67:18

60s 168:4

61 314:10

62 3:9

624 414:11

7

70 162:3 170:9

700,000 318:8

73 3:9 120:5

75 97:18 262:21

76 259:8 264:11

8

8:30 464:9,12

8:32 1:9 5:2

80 3:10 121:1 170:9

80s 259:11

83,000 32:20

84 3:10

85 192:4

850 189:21 199:22

86 34:2

89 3:11

9

9,000 85:9

90 121:1 459:12

93 3:11

95 164:2 241:9

302:3,4

97 3:12

977 234:12

99.9 459:15

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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE (AMS)

 NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM (NOP)

 + + + + +

 MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIC

 STANDARDS BOARD (NOSB)

 + + + + +

 THURSDAY

 MAY 1, 2014

 + + + + +

 The National Organic Standards

Board convened at 8:31 a.m. at the Saint

Anthony Hotel, 300 East Travis Street, San

Antonio, Texas, Mac Stone, Chairperson,

presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT

MAC STONE, Chairperson

JOHN FOSTER, Vice Chairperson

CALVIN WALKER, NOSB Secretary

HAROLD AUSTIN

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

JOSEPH DICKSON

TRACY FAVRE

JAY FELDMAN

WENDY FULWIDER

NICHOLAS MARAVELL

JEAN RICHARDSON

ZEA SONNABEND

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE
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STAFF PRESENT

MILES McEVOY, Deputy Administrator, National

 Organic Program

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board

 Specialist

MELISSA BAILEY, Director, Standards

 Division, National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, Standards Division, National

 Organic Program
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 A-G-E-N-D-A

Livestock Subcommittee

Proposal: Methionine in Organic Poultry Feed

(MET) - petitioned 18

Proposal: Acidified Sodium Chlorite (ASC)

petitioned 52

Verbal Update: Vaccines from Excluded Methods

(GMO Vaccines) 61

Proposal: Aquaculture - Chlorine (for aquatic

animals) - petitioned 73

Proposal: Aquaculture - Tocopherols (for

aquatic animals) - petitioned 103

Proposal: Aquaculture - Minerals (for aquatic

animals) - petitioned 114

Proposal: Aquaculture - Vitamins (for aquatic

animals) - petitioned 127

Proposal: Aquaculture - Micronutrients (for

aquatic plants) - petitioned 154

Proposal: Aquaculture - CO2 (for aquatic

plants) - petitioned 163

Proposal: Aquaculture - Chlorine (for aquatic

plants) - petitioned 182

Proposal: Aquaculture - Lignin sulfonate (for

aquatic plants) - petitioned 185

Proposal: Aquaculture - Vitamins B1, B12, H

(for aquatic plants) - petitioned 196

Compliance, Accreditation & Certification

Subcommittee

Proposal: Guidance on Retail
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Certification 210

Discussion Document: Clarifying Accredited

Certifying Agents' Application of Section

205.206(e) 231

Verbal Summary/Update: Sound and Sensible (no

document) 248

Handling Subcommittee

Proposal: Ammonium Hydroxide (boiler water

additive) - petitioned 256

Proposal: Glycerin - petitioned for

removal 275

Discussion Document: Polyalkylene Glycol

Monobutyl Ether (PGME) - petitioned. 280

Update: Ancillary Substances (no

document) 293

Sunset 2015 Review List:

 Gellan Gum 301

 Tragacanth Gum 307

 Marsala 314

 Sherry 316

Materials Subcommittee

Proposal: Update of Petition & Technical

Review Process 324

Proposal: Confidential Business Information

in Petitions (CBI) 330

Proposal: Fall 2013 Research Priorities 352

Written Report: Seed Purity from GMOs 365
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:31 a.m.

3 CHAIR STONE: If I could ask

4 everyone to start taking their seats. Board

5 members make their way to the table, please.

6 We have a very long day ahead of us today.

7 We've -- each committee is going to go through

8 their agendas. We want to have plenty of time

9 for the Board discussion. We have a couple of

10 kind of generic housekeeping chores here first

11 thing this morning. And I better get my

12 agenda out.

13 I know that Ms. Favre is ready.

14 We're going to start off with livestock which

15 we kind of referred to.

16 You may have noticed that we --

17 when we took back up the aquaculture this

18 semester or term we combined the plant

19 aquaculture materials and the livestock

20 aquaculture materials just so that we could

21 have a unified approach and a shared

22 conversation because of the interaction
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1 between them. And I really appreciate the

2 work the committee did to really roll up your

3 sleeves and work hard. And I'll let Tracy get

4 into a little more of the details of that. So

5 it was kind of a hybrid committee if you will

6 and they did a lot of great work and we're

7 going to learn a lot more about it here in a

8 few minutes.

9 Going to start. Miles is going to

10 -- I neglected to clarify the conflict of

11 interest or lack thereof on the discussions

12 for this meeting yesterday before Zea started

13 the Crops Committee.

14 So Miles, if you'll at this time

15 refresh our memory and Michelle has the tally

16 that the Board has already weighed in on this.

17 Miles?

18 MR. MCEVOY: Good morning. Can

19 everybody hear me okay? Okay, good.

20 First of all, I just wanted to say

21 a little bit about the public comments. Not

22 very many people here today so I might repeat
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1 this later on in the meeting. But I just

2 wanted to thank everybody for their public

3 comments over the last couple of days.

4 The Board received a lot of great

5 information and perspectives about their

6 proposals. The Agricultural Marketing Service

7 also heard many concerns about the revised

8 sunset process as well as concerns about USDA

9 taking away authority from the Independent

10 National Organic Standards Board.

11 We really appreciate all the time

12 and effort that everyone put into providing

13 these comments. It's really important to us

14 and it's important to the Board.

15 My goal is to support the success

16 of the organic community in all of its

17 diversity. You are a very diverse and a very

18 passionate group.

19 I am lucky to be able to serve and

20 I am working to support all of you and your

21 amazing diversity of perspectives. I would

22 encourage all of you to reach out to me and
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1 the National Organic Program.

2 Please come up and talk with us

3 during the breaks, invite us to your farms or

4 organizations so that we can understand your

5 concerns. Stop in and visit with us when you

6 are in D.C. and also send us your comments.

7 You can always do that at nopguidance@usda.gov

8 and any allegations of violations you can send

9 to nopcompliance@usda.gov.

10 We're not always going to agree

11 but we're not your enemy. We're here to try

12 to serve the best interest of the organic

13 community as a whole.

14 Okay. Moving onto conflict of

15 interest. The members of the Board were

16 appointed to the Board to represent the

17 interests of particular groups.

18 As such, many of the interests

19 that you hold, the Board members hold, are

20 acceptable interests. An interest is

21 acceptable if you carry it on on behalf of a

22 represented group and if you receive no
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1 disproportionate benefit from expressing that

2 interest.

3 Interests create appearance

4 problems, often referred to as conflicts of

5 interest when an interest directly and

6 disproportionately benefits you or a person

7 associated with you that could impair your

8 objectivity in representing your group, or has

9 the potential to create an unfair competitive

10 advantage.

11 Conflict of interest is as much

12 about the appearance of a personal conflict

13 and loss of impartiality as it is about direct

14 financial gain.

15 So Board members are appointed

16 because they have interests. They represent

17 those interests. That's a very important part

18 of the structure of the National Organic

19 Standards Board is that they have interests

20 and those interests are important to represent

21 so there's a full diversity of interests that

22 are represented in the recommendations that
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1 come from the Board.

2 So over the last month the

3 National Organic Program provided the members

4 of the Board with a matrix that lists the

5 documents that are being voted on at this

6 meeting.

7 The Board members were asked to

8 identify any conflicts of interest on any

9 agenda item. The completed matrix did not

10 identify any conflicts with any of the agenda

11 items by any of the Board members. Therefore

12 there will be no recusals on any of the items

13 at this meeting.

14 At the beginning of each

15 subcommittee session, at the beginning of this

16 subcommittee session for livestock no Board

17 members have a conflict of interest with an of

18 these subcommittee items.

19 At this point I'll turn it over to

20 Mac. And that's it. Thanks.

21 CHAIR STONE: Okay, thanks, Miles.

22 So at the beginning of each subcommittee
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1 deliberation we had this conversation in

2 executive committee and maybe hopefully we did

3 at each subcommittee that the USDA has their

4 official conflict of interest policy.

5 We as 15 individuals look each

6 other in the eye and recognize and revel in

7 those differences, in those interests as Miles

8 said that we have. So we as a Board, as

9 individuals on the Board have sort of

10 recognized where each of us is in that.

11 And I personally like, if there

12 were any stronger declaration of interest,

13 John, that it be involved in the discussion

14 phase, acknowledged in discussion, not just in

15 voting. And I'm not aware of anyone that

16 feels that they need to declare any abnormal

17 interests. But to be aware.

18 So each of us as individuals. I

19 certainly welcome you to state an interest,

20 declaration of interest, or lack thereof at

21 the beginning of each of these subcommittees

22 as we go in. So, feel free to do that.
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1 And I will remind each of the

2 subcommittees as we begin each of the

3 sessions. Zea?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: I would like to

5 make a declaration of interest. And I don't

6 want to do it at each subcommittee. I just

7 want to do it once. So may I proceed?

8 CHAIR STONE: Yes, ma'am.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Because

10 I feel personally and beyond the NOP policy

11 that it is worth it for us to declare our

12 interest to the public or lack thereof.

13 And so therefore I would like to

14 say that I do work for a certifier who may or

15 may not certify any of the products that come

16 before us. But I do not stand to gain for any

17 of those approvals or not approvals.

18 And I am a partner in a small farm

19 who grows apples and may or may not use any of

20 the products that are on the list once they

21 are approved. Thank you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Zea. Any
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1 other thoughts or comments, declarations if

2 you will? Great, thank you. But please feel

3 comfortable if you feel it coming on, let us

4 know.

5 Okay, we're going to start this

6 morning with the Livestock Subcommittee.

7 We've got that scheduled until lunch. We

8 don't want to be in any rush. I'll let Tracy

9 introduce how we're going to proceed.

10 Then we've got CACS immediately

11 after lunch, Handling the middle of the

12 afternoon and we'll round out the day with the

13 Materials Subcommittee.

14 So, Tracy, with no further ado

15 I'll let you open the conversation.

16 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Mac. To

17 start off the conversation this morning I'd

18 like to first acknowledge and thank the

19 subcommittee for their work on all the

20 materials. As you see on the agenda we have

21 had a boatload of materials and petitions that

22 we've been responsible for reviewing.
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1 It's been a pleasure to work with

2 this subcommittee. We haven't always agreed

3 on some of the materials during our

4 discussions but it's always been very

5 respectful. And hopefully we've created an

6 environment where everybody gets to voice

7 their opinion and feels as though their

8 position has been heard.

9 We'll start with some materials

10 that are not aquaculture but aquaculture is

11 the 3,000-pound gorilla sitting in the room

12 today. So I do at least want to acknowledge

13 that we did approach these materials with a

14 systems approach.

15 We had several discussions as a

16 subcommittee even prior to review,

17 particularly when the materials came over from

18 Crops about how we wanted to philosophically

19 approach the review of these materials.

20 We all did have concerns and

21 reservations about the fact that there were

22 not yet standards out for us to review within,
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1 but were encouraged to also review the draft

2 standards that had been submitted from

3 previous NOSB and use that as the framework

4 under which we reviewed the materials.

5 Like I said we did all have some

6 reservations and as early as December of last

7 year did feel as though that there was a

8 chance that we would move these materials

9 forward, do the work and the review and if the

10 standards were not ready we may elect as a

11 subcommittee to either bring them to the table

12 for discussion but not vote on them, or not

13 bring them to the full Board.

14 As is obvious from the agenda

15 today we did bring the materials together and

16 forward for the full Board to discuss. I

17 personally and I think the rest of the

18 subcommittee felt because there is so much

19 controversy and this is such a complex issue

20 that we wanted to have an opportunity for the

21 full Board to discuss in public these

22 materials and have everybody weigh in and have
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1 a healthy and lively debate on them not only

2 for the record but also for the benefit of our

3 stakeholders who want to see that there is

4 earnest and well-intentioned work being done

5 on the materials.

6 It is our intention, so everybody

7 knows here today, to have that presentation of

8 each of the materials and a discussion. But

9 we do intend to defer the vote until Friday,

10 tomorrow, at which time we do intend likely

11 unless there is a very, very strong reason

12 otherwise to refer them back to committee

13 after having considered the written and the

14 public testimony that we've heard over the

15 last few days.

16 So having said all that and gotten

17 the ball rolling we do have our first proposal

18 petition material, methionine in organic

19 poultry feed. And Mac is the lead on that.

20 Lisa, I think you need to make your

21 introduction.

22 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The
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1 petition for methionine was received on April

2 8, 2011, and it was submitted by the

3 methionine task force. The petition requests

4 an amendment to the current listing for

5 methionine on Section 205.603 of the National

6 List. And I'll go ahead and read the full

7 current listing for the record.

8 It's under 205.603 Synthetic

9 Substances Allowed for Use in Organic

10 Livestock Production, paragraph D as Feed

11 Additives, number 1, DL-Methionine, DL12 Methionine hydroxy analog, and DL-Methionine

13 hydroxy analog calcium (CAS numbers 59-51-8,

14 583-91-5, 4857-44-7, and 922-50-9) for use

15 only in organic poultry production at the

16 following maximum levels of synthetic

17 methionine per 10 of feed.

18 Laying in broiler chickens - 2

19 pounds, turkey and all other poultry - 3

20 pounds.

21 The current sunset date for this

22 listing is October 2, 2017. The most recent
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1 technical report for methionine was completed

2 in 2011 and previous reports are also posted

3 on the NOP website. Thanks.

4 MEMBER FAVRE: Go ahead, Mac.

5 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Tracy,

6 Lisa. So, I've got the recommendation before

7 me. I'm glad to if any of the committee

8 members would like me to review the history of

9 the cascading of recommendations.

10 It's been discuss ad nauseam over

11 the years since the beginning and before there

12 was a rule. I'm glad to run through that but

13 I think everyone's pretty well aware of the

14 history.

15 There's the intent from the

16 beginning that synthetic amino acid in poultry

17 has just been, excuse the pun, Madam Chair,

18 stuck in the craw of this whole group.

19 And we heard testimony yesterday

20 that there has been a lot of work, a lot of

21 money has gone into finding alternatives for

22 this synthetic product and they've not come up
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1 with one.

2 I raise broilers and layers on

3 pasture. I exceed the European Union 43

4 square foot per bird most of the time, maybe

5 not on broilers.

6 But I would suggest that access to

7 outdoors which is referenced in public comment

8 a lot, when I move my birds the broilers move

9 twice a day every day. The layers move every

10 three or four days on pasture.

11 Whatever insects are there are

12 gone within minutes of them finding their new

13 enclosure and that alone does not meet the

14 methionine needs of the birds, but it does

15 help.

16 So, I just make reference that it

17 is -- this is the step-down that the previous

18 Board has implemented to get the 2 pounds for

19 broilers and layers, 3 pounds for turkeys and

20 other fowl.

21 Some describe it as arbitrary.

22 Others say, well, it has to be forceful to try
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1 to encourage these alternatives to be

2 generated and found.

3 I know that at the University of

4 Kentucky near where I am they've got a multi5 year trial. They're using different feeds and

6 cafeteria style feeding, different genetics to

7 see about this. So there's a lot of work

8 going into finding these alternatives.

9 But frankly we heard and seemingly

10 the commercial availability of those is just

11 not there yet.

12 So, the proposal to allow these 2

13 pounds or 3 pounds to be a variable rate in

14 the feed to meet the stage of maturity demand

15 of the chickens became aware to the committee

16 as an animal welfare issue because of what we

17 heard in testimony yesterday and other

18 documentation that the committee has received.

19 When the growers went to these

20 step-down rates they could witness and

21 document behavioral changes, physical changes,

22 lack of feathering. Chickens can be very
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1 cannibalistic by nature and that just doesn't

2 seem right for us as -- for me as an organic

3 farmer to allow those things to happen when we

4 know what can fix it.

5 So just kind of reviewing comments

6 yesterday. Ernie from the Feed Mill was

7 talking about variations and if they don't eat

8 enough total feed then they don't get enough

9 methionine based on location in the country.

10 And summertime is different than wintertime.

11 The broiler boys that were here

12 yesterday, I talked to them. The synthetic

13 portion of the methionine is somewhere between

14 one-fifth to one quarter of the total

15 methionine needs to the bird. So most of it

16 is still coming from the natural ingredients

17 in the feed products.

18 Certifiers, I think Jackie from

19 MOSES talked about that it's important. And

20 the certifiers will work with the growers and

21 develop a system of tracking and monitoring to

22 make this variable rate workable and
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1 verifiable at the individual level.

2 So, all that being said the

3 recommendation is to allow both broilers --

4 well, all poultry to use a variable rate of

5 methionine to meet the nutritional demand of

6 the birds but still not exceed the overall

7 total pounds of methionine that go into an

8 individual animal over the life of that bird

9 I've got other comments but I

10 think that sort of frames the conversation.

11 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay, thanks, Mac.

12 I'm going to open it up for any discussion

13 with the rest of the Board.

14 CHAIR STONE: Yes, so it's a

15 little awkward since I'm the lead but we had

16 decided that I will sort of direct the

17 conversation so that the subcommittee chair

18 can manage on the details of the conversation.

19 So, Nick?

20 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, in the

21 interest of full disclosure like Mac I raise

22 broilers and layers. And I intend to support
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1 this proposal because it gives additional

2 flexibility to poultry growers.

3 However, I'd like to state in my

4 reservations in doing so. I feel that we have

5 used both methionine and no-methionine in our

6 mineral mix, particularly in the wintertime

7 when insect activity is lower methionine would

8 seem to be more advisable.

9 We also mix in alfalfa with our

10 feed which means we have to change our feed

11 ration to accommodate the addition of a higher

12 protein and a lower energy source.

13 But those things are all -- that's

14 not rocket science. I'm not a nutritionist

15 but the nutritionists can figure that out. We

16 also grow alfalfa so it's economically

17 feasible for us to do so.

18 And what I would like to comment

19 here is that there's a fine balance between

20 economic viability making organics available

21 in the marketplace and staying away from

22 synthetics.
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1 And so my reservation here is I am

2 not able, I mean this methionine issue has

3 been debated for a very long time. I'm not

4 able to ascertain from the public or from

5 within my own limited capacity a way to

6 provide an incentive for everyone to come

7 together on this and still make the product

8 economically viable.

9 Because I think in the end this is

10 an economic issue. And as a Board member my

11 statutory charge does not include economic

12 considerations. So, it is a little bit

13 difficult for me to move forward in this mode.

14 So I just wanted to express that.

15 And that I do think, and this is

16 just an opinion, and I've got no basis for

17 this, but I do think that eventually if there

18 is continued demand from within the organic

19 community to move away from methionine,

20 synthetic methionine, we will find better ways

21 to do it.

22 And I don't think there's going to
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1 be one answer in one section of the country.

2 I mean it's going to vary from place to place

3 and from type of operation to type of

4 operation.

5 But I guess my only reservation

6 about voting for this is the we give in and

7 don't continue to explore and innovate. And

8 I know that the task force is going to

9 continue on.

10 We do need to keep the pressure on

11 and that's about the only thing I can say.

12 And we need to do it in a moderated way.

13 So, while I support this and I

14 believe this is an improvement over our

15 existing policy for poultry producers, there's

16 no question about that, I'm all for adding the

17 flexibility. I just don't want us to lose

18 sight of the final goal. So, thank you.

19 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Mac.

21 I have two questions. So, if you -- I'll do

22 them both together or else one at a time.
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1 Well, this is a material that

2 sitting in the audience for 20 years I often

3 turn to the person next to me and said boy,

4 I'm glad I don't have to vote on it.

5 (Laughter)

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: Because it is

7 really one of the more tougher complicated

8 things that we have to do.

9 But being that I'm not on the

10 Livestock Committee and I went back and read

11 the document yesterday and reread the

12 recommendation yesterday, but I have not read

13 all the TRs recently or anything like that.

14 So this may be in there and I just don't know.

15 My first question is has

16 relatively more or less methionine in the

17 chicken affected anyone's health, any humans

18 that eat the eggs or the meat from that

19 chicken? Like do they get methionine

20 deficient? Do people get methionine

21 deficient? Or has there been any health

22 effects from too much methionine in a chicken?
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1 CHAIR STONE: It's been a little

2 while since I read the TR but I don't remember

3 thinking anything about that aspect.

4 I did have in my notes and did

5 mention that as I sell chickens one at a time

6 at the farmer's market and engage customers

7 they have no idea what methionine is and

8 that's not anywhere on the radar of their

9 concern. And I'll be glad to check that. But

10 I don't remember anything of pass through the

11 chicken and affecting the human.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: I figured

13 someone might have commented on that if it was

14 the case.

15 So my second question, and granted

16 I probably should know this, but I couldn't

17 figure it out from reading this again

18 yesterday. If we vote this in does that start

19 5 years ago again for sunset on this? Or if

20 not, what's the previous sunset schedule that

21 we're voting something in for how many years?

22 CHAIR STONE: It does reset the
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1 sunset clock because it's a change in it. I

2 think Lisa said it's currently set to sunset

3 in 17.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: I would like

5 that to be more specific if not in the

6 document itself at least in the cover sheet

7 once it's voted for. Because that was just

8 not at all clear to me.

9 CHAIR STONE: Melissa, you want to

10 clarify?

11 DR. BAILEY: Yes, thanks. Just to

12 be clear, the Board if they voted and make a

13 final recommendation to change the annotation

14 that would come to USDA, we'd review that

15 recommendation and determine whether we were

16 going to pursue rulemaking.

17 If we did pursue rulemaking the

18 sunset date for this material would only

19 change upon issuance of a final rule on that

20 effective date. So, it's hard to say actually

21 what that target would be because we have to

22 do our own review of what you provide and then
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1 it would have to go through that process.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: But it would be

3 five years from whenever the final rule is

4 published for this particular annotation.

5 DR. BAILEY: Correct.

6 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: I appreciate

8 hearing all the comments, particularly Nick's

9 comments about keeping the pressure on.

10 As you know, I'm concerned that

11 we're taking the pressure off. I'm less

12 concerned about transition. I mean, I always

13 thought the statute and the regulations

14 facilitated transitions and didn't create

15 abrupt changes by virtue of the debate that's

16 usually preceded action by several years and

17 then action that has resulted in rulemaking,

18 that extends the time frame.

19 And then the flexibility of the

20 Board over the years to keep the pressure on

21 by use of expiration annotations from time to

22 time such as with antibiotics.
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1 With -- when I first started

2 debating this, and yes, it's not my favorite

3 thing to do, the sunset process has changed.

4 You all know that. And it's changed in ways

5 that takes the pressure off.

6 So, with respect to the comments

7 we previously heard about the desire of one

8 member to keep the pressure on I don't think

9 anything in this motion would do that. In

10 fact, I think it would do just the opposite.

11 And I'd appreciate hearing comments on that

12 point from Nick especially.

13 This is probably a good example,

14 Mr. Chair, of a place where this Board would

15 want to keep the pressure on. We already

16 heard from one of those who gave us a

17 statement that what the Board had done

18 previously did help to move the industry to

19 make changes. I mean, that's music to my

20 ears. That's what this Board is about,

21 continuous improvement.

22 But to put this into the new
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1 sunset process is basically to say that we

2 won't see -- the likelihood of change goes

3 down, the pressure goes down, the effect of

4 this Board's desire or some members to effect

5 more changes and transition. That pressure

6 goes down.

7 So I would propose when we get to

8 that point in the program that we consider an

9 expiration date on this petition. I don't

10 know if the program would consider that

11 substantial new information or new -- but I

12 think we really need to seriously consider

13 whether this is one of those examples where we

14 want to create incentives for the industry to

15 move even further.

16 This decision will affect research

17 dollars, it will affect investment of private

18 -- private investment of research and

19 development.

20 The message that comes out of this

21 vote will either mean we stay on the

22 treadmill, this dependency treadmill, or we
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1 create investments out there in the private

2 sector and even in government research to make

3 this transition.

4 So think about that when you think

5 about whether you can support the motion as

6 has been proposed by the subcommittee. And

7 think about -- I hope you'll think about

8 whether we can do something as a Board that

9 provides more incentives for the kinds of

10 investments we'd want to see.

11 And by the way, just to give you a

12 parallel, if you go back and talk to

13 researchers on alternatives to antibiotics I

14 don't think anyone would disagree that the

15 vote that this Board took in Seattle in what

16 was that, 2011 or 10 -- I forget -- did

17 create research dollars, literally. It

18 created the awareness in the research

19 community that we better get looking at this.

20 So that message that this Board

21 sends out is critically important. And your

22 role in helping to not just rhetorically state
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1 that desire but take an action that puts it --

2 makes it happen is what we're about I think.

3 Thanks.

4 CHAIR STONE: Colehour.

5 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Yes,

6 I guess -- I have three different points I

7 want to make and I'm not sure they're all

8 questions. But I do want to say the first one

9 really is -- I guess it's sort of related to

10 what Jay just said.

11 Which is, even though it's not

12 directly which -- my understanding since I've

13 been on the NOSB and since I've listened to

14 what we've talked about really is we as a body

15 are supposed to be respecting past NOSB

16 decisions and working from what was decided.

17 And what Melissa responded when

18 Zea was asking that question about how many

19 years, you know, the step-down idea was every

20 5 years less and less of the synthetic

21 methionine would be allowed.

22 And this proposal actually does
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1 not respect that 5-year reduction process

2 realistically. It changes how it's

3 implemented but it extends the period we're

4 currently in. And that's a concern of mine.

5 I guess I'm raising it that way.

6 I do -- my second point I guess is

7 to some degree a question and I think -- I

8 don't know in what capacity you want to

9 respond to this, but Mac, you as the lead

10 person on this topic made a comment about your

11 personal situation and it was unclear to me if

12 the birds that you are -- you said the birds

13 -- I'm not going to quote you accurately but

14 they don't get all of their methionine needs

15 met by the insects.

16 But you didn't say, and I'm

17 curious if you would please say, if you

18 provide them with -- if you use synthetic

19 methionine in your poultry-raising. Because

20 that wasn't clear to me. So I don't know if

21 you're willing to respond to that.

22 CHAIR STONE: Sure. No, we use a
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1 crabmeal and/or a fishmeal. And among other

2 natural -- we don't use any synthetic vitamins

3 or minerals in our poultry ration. It's

4 outrageously expensive. We sell eggs for $7

5 a dozen at our farmer's market. We don't have

6 enough of them. I wish we had more.

7 Our customers tell us that our

8 eggs are different than organic storebought

9 eggs. Their public comment referencing

10 systems, how do these different systems

11 address this methionine issue.

12 And we know that there's variable

13 systems in the poultry industry. And that's

14 a bigger picture that I think this Board and

15 the program is working at. But short answer

16 is no, I don't use synthetic methionine.

17 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you for

18 that. I just wanted to make sure it's clear

19 to the whole Board and to the public that this

20 is not something that all poultry producers

21 are dependent upon. And I think it's a

22 critical variable to consider and to be aware
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1 of.

2 And my final point isn't really

3 again a question per se but it's to bring up

4 another topic which is one of the things we

5 discussed in this conversation within the

6 Livestock Subcommittee and I think it's pretty

7 important in my opinion and I think we should

8 discuss it further in this context is

9 considering and/or looking at the alternatives

10 that do exist internationally.

11 And I think that Calvin may or may

12 not have comments from his research on that

13 that he'll be sharing this morning. But I

14 think that it's not as if there are no other

15 alternatives already being used in different

16 ways.

17 And so I think that we can't -- I

18 think getting the ball rolling is good, but I

19 think my point is the ball is rolling and we

20 need to recognize that and acknowledge that.

21 So that's what I wanted to say. Thank you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Wendy?
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1 MEMBER FULWIDER: We all

2 understand and respect that we want to get the

3 synthetics off the list. But the bottom line

4 really is that the chickens need the

5 methionine because it's going to be a big

6 animal welfare issue for the organic industry.

7 So I'm not sure how you can keep

8 that with your research priorities. I mean,

9 everybody needs to understand that until we

10 have the alternatives available for the

11 producers we have to have the methionine

12 available.

13 CHAIR STONE: Jean.

14 MEMBER RICHARDSON: This is a very

15 difficult decision for me to make as a

16 consumer representative on the Board, s real

17 challenge. And I would like to thank Colehour

18 and especially Jay for their really articulate

19 comments on this.

20 And I agree with them all although

21 I will be voting in favor of this motion on

22 the methionine.
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1 It's been my observation over the

2 last many decades that the way we've bred

3 chickens into the lines that are going to be

4 very fast-growing broiler birds and the lines

5 that are going to be the egg producers, we've

6 really selected for animals that grow very

7 fast and are expected to produce large amounts

8 of eggs or large amounts of meat in an

9 extremely short period of time.

10 And we have a national policy of

11 cheap food. And we expect to get these

12 expensively produced animals, we consumers are

13 a fickle lot, for still as cheap as possible.

14 And I think that's placed a great pressure not

15 just on conventional but certainly even more

16 so on organic farming.

17 So, we know that these new breeds

18 of hens require very large nutritional inputs

19 and over a long period of time. We want eggs

20 12 months of the year. We don't want little

21 pullet eggs, and we don't want them different

22 sizes, we want the eggs large and we want
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1 enough meat on the bird so that there's not

2 much left over afterwards when it's a meat

3 bird.

4 So at the moment I actually don't

5 think that we have much choice if we're really

6 going to meet consumer demand that we're going

7 to have to maintain these methionine levels

8 and send two messages.

9 Send Jay's message and my message

10 at the same time to the administration

11 reminding them that what we really need are

12 those new rules that will allow more of these

13 hens to be outside in pasture most of the time

14 with proper outdoor access, critically

15 important.

16 Because we consumers expect that

17 those sweet, happy little chickens have been

18 out there on little family farms with all

19 kinds of pasture to eat as much as they can

20 during the year. So it's not a simple

21 decision for us to make here.

22 And I know that the egg producers
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1 that I've talked to in the Northeast that are

2 running many, many small farms like the guy we

3 heard from yesterday. Consumers we have one,

4 Pete and Jerry's, I think that's what the

5 right name is, in New England they too have

6 lots of small family farms that -- where the

7 animals, the birds are out on pasture all the

8 time. But their production costs are of

9 course higher than the very large industrial

10 so-called farms where eggs are coming out much

11 more cheaply.

12 So we have -- and they, even the

13 small family farms in New England, they also

14 need the methionine based on the observations

15 that I've made at the present time. So I

16 shall be voting for this.

17 CHAIR STONE: Tracy?

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: I'd like to

19 thank everybody for their comments. I think

20 my opinion has been expressed sort of equally

21 around the various comments.

22 I'd also like to tell everyone how
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1 much I appreciate that we have three hours in

2 the Livestock Committee for debate. If this

3 is the discussion for the first material we've

4 got a long way to go.

5 I would like to remind everybody

6 that the step-down that we've proposed of 2

7 pounds over the life of the bird, average over

8 the life of the bird still doesn't adequately

9 meet the demands for broilers as we heard in

10 written and public comments yesterday.

11 I do think that we have not let up

12 the pressure for incentives because that

13 component of the industry is still going to be

14 a little bit behind the eight ball and still

15 looking for alternatives. So, lest we think

16 that we're somehow letting off the pressure we

17 need to recognize that there is still a

18 component of this industry that's going to be

19 pinched pretty badly and is going to be

20 raising a ruckus.

21 I personally feel that the photos

22 shown to us yesterday in public comment were
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1 very compelling. We can all sit here and

2 argue philosophically about synthetics and

3 organics but when you look at animals that are

4 suffering.

5 I completely agree with Wendy's

6 comments. Whether or not we feel it's what we

7 want, we cannot in my opinion ethically and

8 morally allow animals to suffer because of a

9 standard that we're trying to reach.

10 I would also say that this in

11 large part is a situation of our own creation.

12 The Livestock Committee three meetings ago I

13 guess floated an omnivore methionine

14 questionnaire discussion document where we got

15 emphatic feedback that meat scraps and meat

16 alternatives or meat byproducts were not an

17 alternative for us.

18 And so we forced an omnivore to

19 consume a vegetarian diet and now we're all

20 wailing and gnashing our teeth that we have to

21 include a synthetic to accommodate that. So

22 we need to think about that.
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1 And obviously this is a very

2 difficult decision. We're trying to balance

3 competing agendas and objectives but in the

4 end we've created this situation and I think

5 it behooves us to take in the animal welfare

6 considerations that we've created because of

7 the situation.

8 CHAIR STONE: Calvin?

9 SECRETARY WALKER: There's a

10 saying be careful what you ask for because you

11 might get it. And I say that is that I would

12 like to disclose that I do use methionine from

13 ADM as well as lysine. It is a difficult

14 thing.

15 And we were told during the

16 training session to stay in our lane. And in

17 this, Jean and Jennifer, we are a

18 representative of the public.

19 And it's not often that the group

20 that we represent, they're generally on the

21 same side. But on this particular issue some

22 of the public interest groups are with the
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1 business interests. It's not often that you

2 see Cornucopia and OTA on the same side. Just

3 clearly saying that. And that was a game4 changer for me to think about.

5 And not only that in our research

6 priorities that, Zea and Jennifer that you all

7 led, one of the priorities was methionine

8 research.

9 And the Secretary of Agriculture

10 with his Organic and Sustainable Agriculture

11 Working Group, three weeks ago Mark passed out

12 the findings of the different priorities that

13 we asked that USDA do research on. And I

14 believe that USDA ARS is a very independent

15 body.

16 If you look at their

17 recommendation for methionine it said to

18 continue it and they endorsed the idea of

19 looking at doing research in that area. And

20 that was in the document that was passed out

21 to us I believe Tuesday by Mark if you read

22 the methionine USDA recommendation, the
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1 scientists and to me that was also a game2 changer.

3 And plus, my stakeholders are all

4 over the place as it relates to this

5 particular matter.

6 And then the last thing I would

7 like to say is that we know that organic

8 aquaculture will come. And some of these

9 particular systems will be requiring, what, 25

10 and 30 percent non-organic materials to feed

11 fish.

12 And yet, this level of methionine

13 is not even 1 percent of the diet. So, as a

14 representative of the consumers my intent is

15 to vote yes on this, I call it a modified

16 step-down. Even though I would like to see

17 more research continue.

18 CHAIR STONE: Francis?

19 MEMBER THICKE: Thank you. In the

20 interest of full disclosure I have 20 chickens

21 on my farm. And their role is to help control

22 the flies around the barnyard. They do a
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1 great job. Obviously they're outdoors.

2 But I think that the outdoor

3 thing, it's important to consider this in that

4 context. Nick and Mac both talked about how

5 it helps their methionine needs for

6 supplemental.

7 And I had an interesting

8 experience recently. I got some new chickens

9 this year because my old chicken house I shut

10 down and over the winter I didn't have any.

11 So I built a new chicken house

12 and, Mac, by the way I put an automatic door

13 so it opens in the morning and closes at night

14 all by itself.

15 But first I bought six chickens

16 from somebody and they were outdoor chickens.

17 They ran around right away.

18 And then I bought about 10 pullets

19 just beginning to lay. And I put them in

20 there. And they apparently hadn't been

21 outside before. And it took them about a week

22 before they finally looked out the door. The
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1 door was wide open. And then they started to

2 slowly look around.

3 And finally they found the grass

4 and pretty soon they were eating grass, and

5 eating insects, and scratching around, and

6 making dust baths, and so on. And la dolce

7 vita, you know?

8 But that got me thinking about

9 these large poultry houses where they have a

10 little door and they have 100,000 birds and

11 even if they got out there it wouldn't be

12 outdoors. It's not outdoors.

13 And so I think we have to look at

14 this. And this access to outdoors already in

15 the rule would be enough to change that

16 situation. That's not workable.

17 And while I'm on that point,

18 another experience I had recently related to

19 the economic analysis for the outdoor access,

20 or for the chicken animal welfare thing is

21 usually I grow all my own grain for my animals

22 and my dairy cows. But I ran out this year.
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1 And I called National Farmers

2 Organization, broker, organic broker, and I

3 told them I need a load of organic grain. I

4 usually get barley or wheat or Triticale. And

5 he got me a load of Triticale.

6 But he said there's no corn out

7 there. He said these huge chicken producers

8 are just sucking it all up. And you can't

9 even get it and it's sky high prices.

10 And I thought that isn't in the

11 economic analysis for this animal welfare

12 thing. All the livestock producers,

13 especially in Northeast U.S., the dairy

14 producers, they can't hardly get corn. It's

15 expensive. It's driving them out of business.

16 And that wasn't in the economic analysis. And

17 that needs to be in the economic analysis I

18 think.

19 So, to me that's a big part of the

20 whole issue. But I've seen over the years

21 chickens cannibalize each other and so I don't

22 think we can use methionine to try to change
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1 the animal welfare standards. It's like

2 trying to wag the dog with the tail. We have

3 to fix that problem. We have to fix that

4 problem.

5 But I think we can't make the

6 chickens bear the brunt of it. And so I'm

7 going to have to vote for the proposal.

8 CHAIR STONE: John, do you want to

9 wrap this up?

10 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I think this

11 is a really reasonable approach. Everything

12 I've heard sounds like it respects some data

13 that I think was given in good faith.

14 I think anyone, any producers that

15 don't think we're suddenly taking pressure off

16 are just not paying attention. Because

17 obviously these deliberations, if they're not

18 indicating the pressure is still on I don't

19 think they'll probably be in business very

20 long. I don't think the pressure is coming

21 off. I think this is just a reasonable

22 approach to accommodate new information which
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1 we asked for. We got new information. We are

2 adapting, just like every iteration of this

3 Board has always done.

4 Every Board with a vote says we

5 think X, Y, or Z needs to happen. Next Boards

6 come in and say hey, this is new information.

7 We think W ought to happen. And that's what

8 that iteration of the Board does.

9 So with respect to giving respect

10 to past Boards I think we -- we do that every

11 day. We're just doing it with new

12 information. We adapt and we overcome.

13 Some of the best and brightest

14 have done that for many, many years. I think

15 this Board is a good example of that. That's

16 all I have to say.

17 CHAIR STONE: Good. So Madam

18 Chair, I'll close this out. A couple of

19 comments on alternatives.

20 We heard that a variety of oats

21 called naked oats are very easily digested and

22 good for the chickens and can help with this
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1 overall get away from the corn thing, Francis.

2 So we've grown in the last two years because

3 the birds rarely accept them.

4 Well, as soon as they get ripe

5 just like raccoons and sweet corn, the wild

6 birds came in, harvested everything we had and

7 we didn't hardly -- it wasn't even worth

8 harvesting the field. So, just an example of

9 how difficult developing some of these

10 alternatives can be.

11 And I don't want to go off the

12 deep end of how we as a Board, we hear from

13 the community. But where does retail drive

14 farm policy. And if that impacts the

15 livelihood or the well-being of our farm

16 animals or farming systems this Board has the

17 responsibility to balance retail driving farm

18 policy or farm policy driving retail

19 availability. It may be one of those

20 overarching conversations, John.

21 But I think also I want to close

22 out saying that the program and the audience
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1 really appreciates this kind of a go-around

2 and lots of diversity of opinions and it helps

3 everybody to know where we come from in our

4 logic and thinking.

5 So I think with that, Madam Chair,

6 we'll close out this one.

7 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Mac.

8 Thank you, everyone.

9 As I said at the top of the

10 discussion we are going to defer votes until

11 Friday and in the interest of time which I

12 think we're going to need. When we planned

13 this three hours sounded like forever but I'm

14 rapidly reassessing that decision.

15 So we're going to go ahead and

16 move onto the next material. We had a

17 petition for acidified sodium chlorite. Joe

18 Dickson is the lead on that. Lisa?

19 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The

20 petition for acidified sodium chlorite was

21 received on April 30, 2012, and was submitted

22 by Agrosystems International.
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1 The petition requests the

2 inclusion of acidified sodium chlorite at

3 Section 205.603 of the National List for use

4 in organic livestock production.

5 The material is listed elsewhere

6 on the National List at Section 205.605 under

7 paragraph B Synthetics Allowed.

8 In support of its review the

9 Livestock Subcommittee did request the

10 development of a technical report which was

11 completed in 2013 and is posted on the NOP

12 website.

13 There was also a previous

14 technical report completed in 2008 in support

15 of the review for processing and handling use.

16 This petition was also on the

17 agenda of the October 2013 NOSB meeting which

18 was canceled and the proposal has moved

19 forward to this meeting instead. Thanks.

20 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Lisa.

21 Joe?

22 MEMBER DICKSON: So, we evaluated
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1 this material over the last half a year or so

2 and based that review largely on the technical

3 report that we had available to us as a

4 subcommittee.

5 It seemed like a pretty cut and

6 dry evaluation. The material is allowed in

7 processing for direct food contact. There are

8 no real safety or environmental issues. Its

9 environmental fate is very clear and not an

10 issue.

11 But where the technical report and

12 the petition didn't convince us was in the

13 essentiality arena. The technical report

14 listed a number of alternative teat dips for

15 mastitis treatment that were available.

16 The petition itself was not as

17 clear as it could have been in helping us

18 understand why this material was the most

19 appropriate material for certain situations.

20 And so we voted as a subcommittee

21 to not list this material because the

22 essentiality hadn't been shown to us.
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1 Yesterday we heard public comment

2 from two different commenters, one Dan

3 Giacomini, our former chair, who is a dairy

4 health consultant.

5 And he took us through some very

6 detailed comment that laid out a number of

7 ways in which the technical report may have

8 been missing key pieces of information or may

9 have overstated the availability of

10 alternative materials.

11 And we also heard from the

12 petitioner who gave us similar information.

13 So, based in that public comment that we heard

14 the Livestock Committee met last night and

15 discussed this material.

16 And we feel that there's enough

17 question mark here to withdraw the

18 recommendation and as a subcommittee

19 reevaluate the technical report, whether it is

20 in fact sufficient, and how we want to proceed

21 as a subcommittee in looking at this material.

22 Questions or discussion?
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1 CHAIR STONE: Calvin?

2 SECRETARY WALKER: I would just

3 like to add I believe it was my first Board

4 meeting one of the things that I found strange

5 was that written comment, oral comment, and

6 this Board make decisions on things that

7 sometimes need to be vetted beyond 24 hours.

8 Policy juries, city councils, Supreme Court,

9 takes longer. And I think that this is one of

10 these materials that need further

11 deliberations on instead of trying to make a

12 decision in 24 hours.

13 CHAIR STONE: John.

14 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: This is one

15 that was kind of new material for me not being

16 on Livestock. So, I wasn't kind of up to

17 speed on it until we all do our cramming for

18 the previous two weeks prior to these

19 meetings. So I had kind of so-so feelings

20 about it.

21 I will say Dan Giacomini whose

22 work in the field is quite admirable in my
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1 opinion, very respected, was pretty compelling

2 for me.

3 And having had that it allowed me

4 to kind of go back and re-look at other

5 material that I maybe didn't have a full

6 appreciation of before, I didn't have a good

7 context. Certainly not a practical context

8 for.

9 And that's what we rely on public

10 comment for. I thought Dan's comments were a

11 great example of that. So, I feel like if we

12 do, you know, decide to go through the vote

13 I'm feeling very confident that I can make a

14 reasoned decision on it.

15 CHAIR STONE: Francis?

16 MEMBER THICKE: I think we need to

17 -- as we proceed we need to look more at the

18 essentiality -- continue to look at that.

19 I did put on a question on the

20 dairy listserv, organic dairy farmer listserv,

21 about 100 members, and I only got one response

22 back. And it was from somebody who kind of
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1 first gave a libertarian slam on bureaucracy

2 and then said why not include it.

3 And so I didn't really know that,

4 you know, he really needed it or not. I was

5 surprised we didn't. So I think we need to

6 pursue that essentiality.

7 And also, we can look at other

8 things we need for the TR. But one is I think

9 when you mix that acid with the chlorite you

10 need to look at the gaseous thing. We need to

11 look at the toxicity of that particular

12 instance of using it for mixing things.

13 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

14 MEMBER AUSTIN: You know, I agree

15 with the approach that the subcommittee's

16 proposing to the Board.

17 I think also, just a visual

18 comment that it kind of helps show the

19 importance of the combination of not only the

20 written testimony but also the oral

21 presentations that we receive. It helps to

22 bring things I think in a little truer
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1 perspective by looking at the combination of

2 those two.

3 The other thing that I would

4 suggest to the subcommittee if you do refer

5 this back to take further review of it, those

6 are some pretty serious points raised about

7 the depth or the lack of adequate information

8 within the TR itself.

9 And I think that would be

10 something to try to take and put that into a

11 balance for ourselves but also for those

12 people sitting in the audience that we've

13 looked at those issues as they were raised.

14 And look at that I think would help bring

15 value to future TRs and stuff. And see if

16 some of those points were legitimate or if

17 they were just from a personal perspective.

18 And then when you come back with a

19 proposal be able to take and inform us on

20 those findings as well.

21 CHAIR STONE: Joe.

22 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you,
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1 Harold, that's a really good point. Also, it

2 makes me wish that when we accepted the

3 technical review we'd had the resources to

4 look more critically at it.

5 Francis and Wendy fortunately on

6 the committee have some expertise in mastitis.

7 Others of us do not. But it really does

8 highlight the role of finding that deep

9 technical expertise and really using it and

10 critically evaluating these materials.

11 CHAIR STONE: I'll make a comment.

12 I've stated it at the committee level several

13 times. We have the responsibility to accept

14 the TR or not as sufficient. And I know I've

15 often been very uncomfortable. I know what I

16 see in a TR but often if it's outside the

17 wheelhouse you don't know what you don't see

18 or what's not there. So I think we can work

19 with the program to try to develop those.

20 And we've talked about modified

21 TRs and specific questions and things. And

22 that's part of this continual improvement,
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1 Miles, that we work with the program to make

2 our work more efficient and more thorough at

3 the same time.

4 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay, thank you,

5 Joe. I'll state again so everyone knows that

6 we will be deferring the vote or in this case

7 probably a motion to our voting tomorrow.

8 Okay, next on our agenda is a

9 verbal update on vaccines from excluded

10 methods, GMO vaccines. Jean?

11 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So, I'm trying

12 to keep the GMO vaccines issue alive and well

13 on the NOSB Board and keep it on the sort of

14 -- even though it may be somewhat on the

15 backburner for the NOP in terms of our work

16 plan, but at each meeting we're going to try

17 to give an update as to where we are with

18 developing what the certifiers and the

19 producers would really like to see, and that's

20 a list of good vaccines and bad vaccines, or

21 at least a list of good vaccines.

22 So as you recall, the working
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1 group of the NOSB and the NOP and APHIS, we

2 began working 2 years ago now on issues

3 surrounding the use of biologic vaccines made

4 with excluded methods.

5 We hope to get a list for

6 producers and certifiers that would clearly

7 make this differentiation between those made

8 with excluded methods and those not.

9 We eventually reached a sort of

10 stumbling block which we sort of remain at and

11 as Zea has found doing the same thing in terms

12 of seeds, the actual definition of excluded

13 methods needs updating and that's a big job.

14 And I'm not sure when that will actually take

15 place. So these are in a way interim measures

16 that we've been trying to think what might

17 work so that we could really keep assuring the

18 public that indeed in terms of consistency

19 we're working hard across the country to try

20 to make sure that we are having non-GMO

21 vaccines going to our livestock.

22 We understand that certifiers and
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1 producers need to know whether or not they're

2 made with excluded methods. And the common

3 language they use is the non-GMO language.

4 So just a quick reminder is that

5 Section 205.238(a)(6) requires that land-based

6 livestock must establish and maintain a

7 preventive healthcare practices including

8 administration of vaccines and other

9 veterinary biologics.

10 At the present time livestock

11 producers are allowed to use vaccines as

12 provided in 205.603(a)(4). However, vaccines

13 made with excluded methods, GMOs, are

14 prohibited as provided in Section 205.105(e).

15 And as well aware many people

16 don't realize this across the country.

17 Further, there is specific reference that

18 205.105(e) to provide an allowance for

19 vaccines made with excluded methods if the

20 vaccines are reviewed and recommended for

21 addition to the National List by the NOSB.

22 Such review needs to be conducted
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1 in accordance with Section 205.600(a) using

2 criteria specified in the act at 651.7 and

3 651.8. And I again remind us on the record

4 that no such GMO vaccine has been approved.

5 Products containing biologics are

6 regulated by USDA APHIS Center for Veterinary

7 Biologics and that's the group that we have

8 been working with. And I must say Nick and I

9 have found them to be really very thoughtful

10 and good people to be working through. And

11 hopefully we will be able to continue doing

12 that as the month go by.

13 So it was of some interest that we

14 heard that the Vermont Organic Farmers had

15 developed an affidavit seeking information on

16 vaccines. And so in a way this is sort of a

17 good news report.

18 Vermont Organic Farmers did a

19 survey of their farms and they were trying to

20 get this list that would work for their

21 farmers. So I asked for a report from the

22 certifier and Nicole Dehne who is the
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1 executive director of that or the head

2 certifier, I don't remember her important

3 title. She'll yell at me later I'm sure.

4 And so she's going to help me with

5 this in just a minute. And certainly as we

6 present something that's just from one

7 certifier I know I've been talking to other

8 certifiers in the room these last few days.

9 If there are any other of you out

10 there who are certifiers that are in fact

11 collecting data on all of the various vaccines

12 that are being used by your producers and if

13 you've got documents that are good affidavits

14 and lists of vaccines that you've found to be

15 acceptable for your producers the Livestock

16 Subcommittee would really appreciate that.

17 And you could direct them directly

18 to me and I'll make sure they're properly

19 distributed. So if, Michelle, we could put up

20 the NOSB Vaccine Report from VOF I would

21 appreciate it.

22 And Nicole, if you could come up
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1 to the microphone I would appreciate that.

2 And I'm hoping that everyone is seeing that

3 here we are the NOSB, the voice of the people,

4 we're trying to work with stakeholders around

5 the country. And so it was nice to be able to

6 work with a member of a certifier group to try

7 to develop this information.

8 Nicole, I wonder if you could walk

9 us through the report. We haven't got it yet.

10 Sorry? Yes, that's it.

11 MS. DEHNE: So, for the record my

12 name is Nicole Dehne and I coordinate the

13 Vermont Organic Farmers which is the organic

14 certification program of NOFA Vermont.

15 And I'm happy to go over kind of

16 our process and what we found while reviewing

17 vaccines used by our certified livestock

18 producers.

19 And you know I want to just say

20 that any success that we've had really needs

21 to be put in the context of the type of farms

22 that we certify. It's not our intention at
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1 all to create a list of approved vaccines

2 that's usable nationwide.

3 So, as this report describes what

4 we did is we developed a document that was --

5 the intent was that it would be signed by

6 vaccine manufacturers to verify whether their

7 vaccines were produced using excluded methods.

8 And as Jean described the initial

9 challenge for us was really developing a

10 working definition for what a vaccine is

11 that's produced with the excluded method.

12 So we referenced the NOSB's the

13 Vaccine Working Group interim report and we

14 developed our document based on that report.

15 And it aims to define vaccines that would be

16 considered made with excluded methods and then

17 therefore prohibited.

18 So probably the most significant

19 definitions in the document which we pulled

20 out of the working group report start on the

21 second page. Number 3. And that talks about

22 vaccines made with excluded methods include
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1 all those vaccines in which specific

2 modifications, additions, or deletions are

3 introduced into the viral or bacterial genome.

4 And then we give examples of

5 excluded methods and examples of allowed

6 methods. And then we're asking manufacturers

7 to sign off as to whether their vaccines

8 qualify.

9 So, last year what we did is we

10 queried our certification database and we

11 created a list of all the vaccines used by our

12 certified organic dairy producers. And then

13 we contacted the manufacturers that were on

14 that list.

15 And we currently have 156 dairy

16 operations out of 189 that are reporting the

17 use of at least one vaccine. So interestingly

18 enough, we were able to receive non-GMO

19 confirmation from the manufacturers of all the

20 vaccines that were in question on our queried

21 list. So that was great news.

22 So then what we did was all of our
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1 livestock producers beyond just our dairy

2 producers received a list of all of the

3 vaccines that we had approved or verified in

4 January of this year. And then we have been

5 able to add to this list since we've

6 distributed it to our producers.

7 So, at this point for the most

8 part producers contact us now if they wish to

9 use a vaccine that's not on the list. And

10 then we will contact the manufacturer and try

11 to verify whether it can meet the practices

12 and can be considered made without excluded

13 methods.

14 So, if you want to -- oh, right,

15 if you could scroll down, Melissa. This

16 description, this paragraph here is kind of

17 what I just described. If you could scroll

18 down a little bit more I actually included the

19 list of vaccines here. Next page.

20 So, it's organized by manufacturer

21 and then this is the list of the vaccines that

22 we've received confirmation that they're not
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1 made with excluded methods.

2 We did contact -- so again, these

3 vaccines mainly address vaccines used by dairy

4 producers. Some of the -- one manufacturer

5 that we did contact, Merck -- and if you

6 scroll down a little bit, Melissa, you might

7 see that one -- they did respond by giving us

8 all of their vaccines including for swine and

9 for poultry.

10 MEMBER RICHARDSON: And we do have

11 copies, made about 10 copies of this if

12 anyone's interested in looking at the list of

13 the OF accumulated. And if people want to

14 have copies of it just let me know or come by

15 and get one.

16 And do we know if we use any

17 poultry vaccines in Vermont? Or you weren't

18 looking at that at all, were you?

19 MS. DEHNE: No, so that's a great

20 question. The poultry producers that we

21 certify are all under 1,000 birds. Way under

22 1,000 birds. Our largest poultry producer
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1 probably has around 200 birds. So none of our

2 poultry producers are using vaccines earlier

3 than past the second day of life.

4 And we have a very small number of

5 pork producers and they also are not using

6 vaccines. So again, you should think of this

7 list in context of the type of farms that we

8 certify which are primarily smaller dairy

9 operations and beef operations.

10 But it was interesting that some

11 manufacturers did provide information for

12 poultry and swine.

13 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Are there any

14 questions from the other members of the NOSB

15 to Nicole on this?

16 Let me just ask you one other

17 thing. Did you find the manufacturers were

18 helpful and responsive, and did some of their

19 own affidavits?

20 MS. DEHNE: Yes, that's a great

21 question. We did find the manufacturers were

22 very helpful and receptive. And we also came
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1 across an affidavit from a large dairy

2 operation that was obviously verifying their

3 vaccines as well. So we're certainly not the

4 only ones that are out there doing this was my

5 assumption.

6 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Great. So

7 thanks very much, Nicole. I really appreciate

8 you coming and giving this information and for

9 doing this work.

10 And again, as I say to other

11 certifiers, if you have similar affidavits and

12 lists I sure would appreciate it because we

13 don't really want to let this issue sort of

14 die before we come up with a list that would

15 be a useful thing to use throughout the

16 country.

17 And as far as I know that's going

18 to be only the poultry area that's going to be

19 a slight challenge for us in finding a non-GMO

20 vaccine for one of the salmonellas.

21 Otherwise I think that we should

22 have enough vaccines that are used around the
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1 country that it's easy for all of our organic

2 farmers to find appropriate non-GMO vaccines

3 to reassure the public that indeed we're all

4 making a concerted joint effort to make sure

5 there are no GMOs in the food stream. Thank

6 you.

7 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Jean.

8 Well, I feel like we should have a drum roll

9 and a crescendo. We are now ready to start

10 our discussion on the aquaculture materials.

11 The first one on the agenda. I almost feel

12 like we need to stand up and everybody limber

13 up and get loose and get ready.

14 Okay, first proposal for

15 aquaculture is chlorine for aquatic animals.

16 Joe Dickson is the lead on that. Lisa?

17 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The

18 petition for chlorine for aquatic animal use

19 was submitted on April 19, 2012 and was

20 submitted by the Aquaculture Working Group.

21 The petition requests the inclusion of

22 chlorine for aquatic animal use in addition to
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1 the National List.

2 This particular agenda item was a

3 carryover from the fall 2013 meeting that was

4 canceled and the subcommittee proposal was

5 revised in response to comments from that

6 comment period.

7 There was no new technical report

8 for chlorine. There are existing technical

9 reports from 2011 for crop uses as well as for

10 crop handling and processing uses from 2006

11 and some earlier ones.

12 There is also chlorine

13 consideration on the agenda for aquatic plant

14 use and we'll be discussing that later this

15 morning. Thanks.

16 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Lisa.

17 Joe?

18 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you, Tracy.

19 So, to start out, my notes here are pretty

20 complicated.

21 The process we followed with

22 chlorine was a little bit confusing for the
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1 committee in that we wanted to capture the

2 intent of the petition and that is the desired

3 use of chlorine.

4 We wanted to come up with a

5 listing that was consistent with other uses of

6 chlorine on the National List. And we thought

7 we did that.

8 Basically, so the petitioned

9 annotation for chlorine or the intent of the

10 petitioner was to use chlorine as a

11 disinfectant as the material is currently used

12 in handling with the additional use in culture

13 water.

14 Our original thinking was to match

15 the current handling listing which restricts

16 the residual chlorine levels in the water to

17 the level set by the Safe Drinking Water Act.

18 After we made that initial

19 recommendation we learned from the program

20 that the program's intent had been to change

21 that listing to specifically mention the

22 effluent water rather than the water itself to
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1 clarify that we're not restricting its use in

2 the sanitizing water but rather the effluent

3 water from the facility.

4 So we had some go-around with the

5 program on that and I think finally arrived at

6 a proposed annotation that works and suits

7 everyone's intent.

8 Lisa, does that make sense and

9 does that correctly capture sort of our

10 process?

11 DR. BRINES: Yes, I believe so.

12 Thanks.

13 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you. I'm

14 glad to hear that makes sense because I'm

15 still trying to sort it out in my own notes

16 here.

17 But bottom line is we wanted to

18 write an annotation for use of chlorine that

19 was identical with how it's used right now in

20 food processing. To be used for sanitizing

21 facilities and equipment including culture

22 water and aquaculture applications.
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1 The one new topic for the listing

2 was the sort of question of culture water

3 where chlorine is essentially used to

4 sterilize water and eliminate any existing

5 organisms before establishing new cultures in

6 the water.

7 I believe it was Francis on the

8 last subcommittee who brought up a really

9 interesting question which was is that -- do

10 we want to look at that use of chlorine in

11 culture water as similar to the practice of

12 soil fumigation.

13 You know, from a sort of organic

14 philosophy perspective is this sort of

15 practice of wiping out the existing

16 microorganism population of water consistent

17 with the principles that we're here to uphold.

18 I'd say that conversation is

19 ongoing within the Livestock Committee but

20 definitely one for discussion here.

21 And that really concludes my

22 general introduction.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Are there questions,

2 comments? Start a conversation around this

3 material? Zea?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Joe.

5 The issue of culture water was not made clear

6 at all in this checklist or the way the

7 recommendation was framed to someone who did

8 not participate in the Livestock Subcommittee.

9 I know it was petitioned for

10 culture water but nowhere in the actual

11 listing does it -- you know, the whole text

12 talks about we're going to make this similar

13 to the rest of the listed uses of chlorine,

14 but that's not an already listed use of

15 chlorine.

16 And nowhere in the text of what

17 was passed does it say this is also approved

18 for culture water. So I would assume from

19 reading it it is not approved for culture

20 water.

21 I mean that's just how you read

22 it. It's only allowed for disinfecting and
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1 sanitizing facilities and equipment. That's

2 what it says.

3 Furthermore, while I know there's

4 been many TRs in the past on this none of them

5 had to do with culture water at all. And I

6 really feel that it needs to be studied, the

7 checklist needs to be studied for what happens

8 when it's used in culture water.

9 Because like for instance, I don't

10 see how this is different than soil

11 fumigation. You're sterilizing everything in

12 the water just like you would with methyl

13 bromide. So maybe it's not that bad but I

14 would really like to see that studied with a

15 TR and/or expert opinion and then specifically

16 talked about in the checklist with, you know,

17 what would happen to the effluent water from

18 culture water. Are there trihalomethanes for

19 them that sink to the bottom of the pond?

20 And plus, it doesn't distinguish -

21 - and I'm just having to assume this here

22 because it wasn't made clear in the thing --
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1 whether you'd try to sterilize a net pen in

2 the ocean which I'd hope you wouldn't even

3 try. But that this is only for ponds.

4 I mean, I just really think it

5 needs to be distinguished, the culture water

6 thing which is a new facet of it.

7 And so I feel like I could not --

8 no way could I vote for or against this motion

9 it being incomplete in this form.

10 And I would say that the same

11 thing applies to the chlorine for plants so I

12 don't have to repeat myself there.

13 CHAIR STONE: Zea, thank you. So

14 this is exactly what the subcommittee is

15 looking for, to have this extended view, the

16 extended perception of the materials and the

17 process of evaluating these from those outside

18 the committee. And let the audience know how

19 we're not finished doing our due diligence on

20 these. So, thank you. That's exactly what

21 the committee wants to hear. Francis?

22 MEMBER THICKE: I think it's
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1 pretty obvious too that the reason we couldn't

2 really figure all this out is we don't have

3 any standards. And so we don't know for sure

4 what we're trying to sanitize and what we're

5 trying to do here.

6 CHAIR STONE: Colehour?

7 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, I don't mean

8 to cause any unpleasantness in this

9 conversation, but I do want to note that as a

10 Livestock Subcommittee member, and I

11 approximately Zea's input at this point in

12 time, frankly and realistically as a minority

13 opinion on these conversations I brought up

14 most every one of those points in most every

15 one of those same kind of approaches within

16 the subcommittee that we consider, listing in

17 an annotation this is only for certain uses,

18 and the whole culture water discussion, and

19 all of these other issues.

20 And so I don't think it's bad to

21 bring it up again, but I think we need a

22 context in which we're going to do something
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1 with these things. For example, within these

2 recommendations, these proposed

3 recommendations at the subcommittee level I

4 think that that could or should have been put

5 forth as this was brought up as one minority

6 discussion points.

7 So that people like Zea not on the

8 subcommittee would be aware that at least it

9 had been considered so that the whole NOSB

10 isn't thinking this is brand new in process.

11 Because I think we need to make our process a

12 little bit more efficient, frankly, for that

13 reason. Thank you.

14 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, thank you.

16 Just to echo Colehour's sentiment here. The

17 Livestock Committee was given a checklist from

18 the Crops Subcommittee which included this

19 exact conversation.

20 All of that information was

21 stripped out of the Livestock Committee

22 checklist. The minority position was
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1 relegated to the back of the checklist in a

2 narrative form.

3 You know, this is the credibility

4 of the organic label. And either way you cut

5 this, Mr. Chair, if you come to this body in

6 a public forum, this meeting and say to the

7 subcommittee, well, we've been looking at this

8 thing for a year and we got new information at

9 this meeting that is causing us to return this

10 issue back to subcommittee I personally feel

11 it makes this Board look foolish.

12 On the other hand, if you admit

13 that we did evaluate a lot of these issues and

14 we chose to ignore them I think that makes the

15 process look somehow deficient.

16 So I hope we can take from this

17 the need that I think the community has that

18 we give voice through this process to all the

19 views.

20 One of the issues, Joe, that I

21 know was raised in the context of this

22 discussion was the distinction between the
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1 Safe Drinking Water Act and the Clean Water

2 Act. That was brought to the subcommittee by

3 the minority view.

4 And again, that issue which is a

5 technical issue of import to the deliberations

6 of this Board was not addressed or

7 incorporated into the checklist.

8 I know some people feel it's

9 confusing to have a checklist which

10 incorporates a variety of opinions, but I

11 think the credibility of the label ties to the

12 fact that the public can point to and see that

13 this Board deliberated fully and reached a

14 conclusion that it believed in its best intent

15 meets the standards of the statute.

16 And I think with regard to this

17 material in particular, but others as well,

18 when we're talking about a chlorine-based

19 economy and a chlorine-based food supply which

20 is exactly the kinds of materials the public

21 supporting organic wants to get away from we

22 have to be very careful that we explain the
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1 justification for these uses and show due

2 diligence.

3 I think every attempt was made to

4 do this through the subcommittee process. I

5 know the information and if you go back to the

6 checklists that were prepared and then

7 withdrawn for the last meeting that was

8 canceled I think you'll find that the

9 committee and the Board, or the committee at

10 the least, the Crops Committee did its due

11 diligence on this issue.

12 So, again, I support the hard work

13 of Colehour to bring these issues forward.

14 And I hope as we discuss moving forward on

15 this that we can incorporate these issues into

16 our review.

17 CHAIR STONE: Tracy and then Jean.

18 MEMBER RICHARDSON: A point of

19 order or clarification, Mr. Chair, is that

20 many of Jay's comments are actually

21 referencing really the chlorine in the plants

22 one which we haven't yet got to. So, if we
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1 can hold all your comments and sort of --

2 because right now Joe's only discussing the

3 chlorine in the animals thing because that --

4 for which -- for the plants there is a long

5 minority opinion.

6 CHAIR STONE: Tracy?

7 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Jean.

8 That was one point I was going to make.

9 And there is a minority opinion

10 that is fairly lengthy that's attached to

11 chlorine for aquatic plants.

12 I will just say that, Colehour, I

13 appreciate your comment that you're not trying

14 to be contentious. I think we did have

15 collegial conversations about this in

16 subcommittee. I hope you feel that way. You

17 indicated as such I think to me anyway.

18 The issue about the checklists

19 which Jean has rightfully pointed out, excuse

20 me, belong more to the aquatic plants and

21 aquatic animals was an issue that we discussed

22 essentially one whole meeting when we first
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1 received the material -- materials from Crops.

2 And we had a pretty lively debate about

3 philosophically how we wanted to make sure to

4 represent all of those opinions.

5 And it was the consensus of the

6 subcommittee. In fact, I think there was --

7 maybe Colehour was the only dissenting vote on

8 that -- that we felt very strongly that it was

9 our job as a subcommittee to come forth with

10 a recommendation that clearly presented the

11 reasons for why the recommendation was going

12 the way it was, but still left room for

13 commentary and discussion from minority

14 opinions.

15 That is specifically the reason we

16 elected to untangle the checklist which I

17 think most of us felt was very confusing and

18 left not only the remainder of the Board but

19 the public as well very confused as to what a

20 clear recommendation was.

21 We want to make sure that there's

22 an opportunity for all sides to be presented.
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1 And I'll remind you, Jay, that specifically

2 one of the reasons we brought these proposal

3 to the full Board was so that we could have

4 this discussion on the public record within

5 view and sight of the public and stakeholders

6 that are interested in this to make sure that

7 we have an opportunity to present all sides of

8 the issue. Thank you.

9 CHAIR STONE: Calvin.

10 SECRETARY WALKER: Jay, are you

11 saying that for the checklist the minority

12 opinion should be a part -- be placed as a

13 part of that right? It seemed like that may

14 be --

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: I think the

16 attempt of the minority as I understood it on

17 the calls that I listened into and observed

18 was to incorporate into the checklist the

19 issues of chlorine that have been previously

20 addressed by the Crops Committee. And that

21 those issues applied both to chlorine use in

22 animal agriculture -- or aquatic agriculture
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1 as well as crop aquaculture.

2 So, I, you know, I don't

3 understand why that -- it was so difficult to

4 incorporate those issues. I thought that was

5 the whole point as you say, Madam Chair, to

6 bring the two committees together and

7 incorporate the issues of concern which are

8 issues related to the categories under the

9 checklist related to adverse impacts on the

10 environment. And incorporate those very same

11 questions.

12 Is there a persistence or

13 concentration of the material or breakdown

14 products in the environment? I mean, that's

15 an issue whether we're talking about crop

16 aquaculture or animal aquaculture. It's the

17 same issue.

18 And that was just my point, that

19 the minority was attempting to incorporate key

20 scientific issues. And the only thing that is

21 in here is chlorine dioxide is reactive and

22 breaks down quickly. That's what's in here.
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1 So, I -- and then other things

2 about it degrading rapidly in the environment.

3 Yes, a lot of that's true. But where is the

4 information on the potential adverse effects

5 in the animal side?

6 So yes, that was my point. Just

7 to try to -- I hope -- you know, I know

8 there's well intentions behind this. I'm not

9 criticizing any individual. I'm just hoping

10 that we can create a document that

11 incorporates in a more easily understood

12 manner if it was confusing in the past, but

13 clearly incorporates into the checklist the

14 different viewpoints so that everybody knows

15 that we've done our due diligence. I feel

16 it's left out of here.

17 CHAIR STONE: Joe? Harold?

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: While I don't sit

19 on the Livestock Subcommittee I am a part of

20 the Crops Subcommittee and was a part of the

21 deliberation when the aquaculture materials

22 that we had were there until we combined them
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1 with the Livestock Subcommittee.

2 And I applaud what you guys have

3 done with the proposals. You've cleaned up

4 the checklist rather than diluted them.

5 The way they were written I think

6 for even those of us on the subcommittee by

7 trying to interject the majority and the

8 minority opinions within the context of the

9 checklists themselves actually made a very

10 convoluted hodge-podge of what we had in front

11 of us.

12 It made it very difficult to

13 understand because the points kept crossing

14 over. You'd have the majority and then we

15 would have the minority got inputted into

16 that.

17 I think by pulling it out and

18 addressing that in the minority opinion at the

19 end of the document makes a very clearer, more

20 concise, more transparent document for

21 everybody to understand and be able to take

22 and move forward.
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1 I think the thing we also have to

2 look at is the stuff that we put forward now

3 as a Board are going to be reference points

4 for those that follow us in our footsteps down

5 the road. And we need to make sure that we

6 leave a clear and concise path and trail for

7 those to follow that have to make future

8 decisions that we're going to leave for them.

9 So I think what you've done was

10 the right move to do on behalf of myself. I

11 mean it was my personal opinion but I think

12 it's made a much, much better document.

13 CHAIR STONE: And I would suggest

14 that we had conversation and we talked with

15 the Standards staff. And there's two

16 objectives here, Jay, of being sure that

17 everyone understands we considered the various

18 factors, the various implications, but also

19 that the Standards staff has a clear picture

20 as they go into rulemaking.

21 So in my opinion as Harold

22 represented if it didn't do that -- and we are
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1 going to rework these I think. If we didn't

2 do that we'd have two objectives. Be sure

3 that everyone knows we did our due diligence,

4 but also that the Standards staff has clear

5 information with which to begin the rulemaking

6 process. Zea?

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: I think this

8 goes beyond majority/minority opinion to

9 really doing a good job on the checklists

10 though. Which isn't to say that -- I mean I

11 appreciate that it's cleared up in this form

12 so that it isn't all this minority/majority.

13 But I think it could be a more complete

14 statement of the facts.

15 And especially regarding this

16 question 6 here of the persistence and

17 concentration in the environment which is the

18 key one that would be different between a use

19 as a disinfectant where the statements here

20 apply to its use as a disinfectant in the

21 presence of air and sunlight.

22 If it's used -- it should have
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1 another paragraph in it that says when used in

2 culture water which would be in a big tank

3 indoors or a big pond in water without air and

4 sunlight here's what might happen to it and

5 here would be the fate. And that might be a

6 quite different but yet factual statement

7 compared to what happens for it as a

8 disinfectant.

9 And I really feel that we could be

10 a little more thorough in this case without

11 saying -- you know, then you draw your own

12 conclusion from it, is it good or bad, or

13 majority or minority. But you have a more

14 thorough statement.

15 And if you can't create that

16 statement by yourselves because you don't know

17 then we need a TR and expert assistance with

18 it.

19 CHAIR STONE: Calvin?

20 SECRETARY WALKER: It seemed to me

21 looking at the minority opinions that Colehour

22 placed in the aquaculture petitions it seemed
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1 like it would be okay if you have a minority

2 opinion. If you want to put it in a paragraph

3 form essentially that's what the minority

4 opinion was.

5 For each of the three criterias

6 for -- that we was evaluating Colehour had it

7 in a paragraph form. To me he could have

8 easily placed it in a tabular form with the

9 same thing as the minority opinion. Because

10 at the end of the day when they go to

11 rulemaking only the majority is going to carry

12 the day.

13 So I look at category 1, category

14 2, category 3. They -- I could easily see

15 they are his response being put in the

16 checklist, but why not -- instead of putting

17 it in a paragraph form place it in a tabular

18 form as the minority opinion. It's

19 essentially the same. It's a checklist

20 without the table already.

21 CHAIR STONE: So, Madam Chair, in

22 a little bit of essence of time here. So,
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1 this first material I think we were able to

2 get a lot of those generic sort of process

3 things on the table. And I think we won't

4 have to spend as much time around this process

5 and this education.

6 I know the Standards staff also

7 uses these comments, the transcripts, not just

8 recommendations. So they comb through every

9 word as they're working through the rulemaking

10 process.

11 But, so with some of that, if

12 there's other generics, you know, I'm not

13 squandering conversation here, but as we move

14 through these materials maybe we can not have

15 to reiterate these types of comments on how

16 the subcommittee goes forward in the process.

17 So if there's other material18 specific I welcome that. Zea?

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Did you just

20 say you weren't going to talk about the rest

21 of them individually?

22 CHAIR STONE: No, ma'am. I tried
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1 to say that if we've covered the generic bases

2 of the committee's work going forward that we

3 can keep it to specific as we go through each

4 one individually around the material itself.

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: I have one more

6 general statement to make that overarches all

7 of them. I didn't want to take it all out on

8 chlorine.

9 I just wanted to be on the record

10 to point out to people that the majority of

11 the National List was voted in before there

12 were published standards in the federal rule.

13 And if the federal rule in 2002

14 had come out and all the materials were waited

15 until the rule came out we'd still be here

16 today hashing it out.

17 So, I pretty much reject this

18 notion that you have to wait till the

19 standards are out to review any materials for

20 it. That being said -- so I don't feel that

21 that is a reason to hold up everything.

22 But that being said I was somewhat
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1 disappointed that the checklist on the whole

2 did not distinguish very clearly between the

3 closed system aquaculture and the open net pen

4 aquaculture.

5 And although we have NOSB

6 recommendations which will be the basis for

7 the standards to refer to in deciding on the

8 materials I did not find the NOSB

9 recommendation on the open net pens creating

10 enough illumination to me to be able to

11 support any of the materials in the context of

12 net pens since it wasn't discussed in the

13 checklist specifically. Like here's the

14 impact of this material in a closed system,

15 here's the impact of this material in an open

16 system.

17 So I feel pretty comfortable with

18 the pond NOSB recommendations that things like

19 handling the waste water would be dealt with

20 in an organic system plan.

21 But as far as the net pens

22 recommendation, even after talking to a former
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1 Board member who was there for that debate and

2 he told me how strict they were I do not feel

3 comfortable with that use of any of the

4 materials that is before us.

5 And I would like us to take them

6 back, to reconsider making a distinction

7 between net pens and pond systems and perhaps

8 having separate votes on them for that

9 purpose.

10 But I'm not using the excuse of no

11 standards, no materials, because when we did

12 the list to begin with we had NOSB

13 recommendations on the different facets of

14 what became the federal rule and we were able

15 to create a materials list proposed that could

16 come out with the regulations. Thank you.

17 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Zea.

18 Tracy?

19 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you very much

20 for those comments. I think that's going to

21 be helpful in our deliberations when we take

22 these back to committee.
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1 If there's nothing more on --

2 CHAIR STONE: I've got one more,

3 Nick and then Jean. That would be two.

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: Zea, I'd just

5 like to point out I do not share the same

6 level of assurance that we should move forward

7 in the absence of standards based upon your

8 comments.

9 We did have operating standards by

10 certifiers, public and private, across the

11 country. Assured there were differences on

12 materials. We had recommendations from the

13 NOSB. So I think we should -- we should

14 acknowledge. Plus we had certain definitions

15 and guidance from the federal legislation.

16 So I'm just saying that I

17 understand your point but I think we should

18 view that point in the context of how we

19 evolve this. So, I personally think we have

20 the luxury now of seeing standards before we

21 approve materials. And I would prefer to go

22 that way if at all possible.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Jean? Want to wrap

2 this up?

3 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes, I agree

4 with that second part of what Zea was saying.

5 It was very frustrating to us not to have

6 adequate information in order to do exactly

7 what you're saying, that how would these

8 materials be used in net pens as opposed to

9 closed systems. It was quite frustrating.

10 The petitions were all, quite

11 frankly, on the record fairly badly written.

12 And we received really not -- and even with

13 experts coming on and explaining how these

14 materials might be used to some of our

15 conference calls we really didn't get an

16 adequate framework because there are no --

17 apart from the NOSB recommendations which we

18 did look at of course in fine detail and we

19 tried to make our sort of analysis somewhat

20 based on those.

21 Unfortunately without the actual

22 detail of what the final proposed regulations
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1 will look like it was very difficult to do

2 that depth of analysis.

3 But I really appreciate your

4 comments that we need to rework those

5 checklists, all of them, in regards to these

6 general comments that have come up today. So

7 I appreciate that very much, thank you.

8 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: I just want to

10 add one supplemental point that Nick brought

11 up. And I do agree with you, Nick, that we

12 did have established certifier standards to

13 work with.

14 And that's what brought to mind

15 that one other weakness here I thought, and

16 this is not blame on the NOSB, but it's a

17 factor of not having TRs done on them, is that

18 the existing standards in other countries we

19 did not really take a look at, or at least

20 maybe the committee did but it did not come

21 out in these checklists for those countries

22 who do have standards for aquaculture whether
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1 they allow these materials in fish.

2 And that's something I would like

3 to explore in the absence of our own standards

4 to at least know what was going on in those

5 other standards.

6 CHAIR STONE: Great. Well, Madam

7 Chair, I think that was a great opening

8 conversation and exactly what I think the

9 committee was hoping would happen today and

10 appreciate the good input from the Board. So,

11 next up.

12 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes, thank you,

13 everyone. Okay. Next up is tocopherols in

14 aquatic animal production. Myself and

15 Colehour were co-leads on this material.

16 Lisa?

17 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The

18 petition for tocopherols for aquatic animal

19 use was submitted on April 27, 2012 by the

20 Aquaculture Working Group.

21 The petition requests the

22 inclusion of tocopherols for use in aquatic
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1 animal production. There's one other listing

2 for tocopherols on the National List at

3 Section 205.605(b) for use in handling and

4 processing.

5 In support of its review the

6 Livestock Subcommittee did request the

7 development of a new technical evaluation

8 report to assist in its review. And that

9 report was completed in 2013. There is also

10 additional information from the original

11 technical advisory panel report for a

12 processing consideration from 1995.

13 This particular agenda item was

14 also on the agenda for the October 2013

15 meeting which was canceled and the

16 subcommittee proposal was revised in response

17 to comments submitted for that meeting.

18 Thanks.

19 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you. I'm

20 going to make some initial comments. Then I'm

21 going to turn it over to Colehour.

22 First of all, I'd like to
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1 apologize for an error that crept into the

2 checklist. Under category 2 is the substance

3 agricultural. It was marked as yes. I

4 noticed OTA caught that. Thank you very much.

5 Obviously in other places on the National List

6 it's considered a non-agricultural synthetic.

7 If we had a category for

8 agricultural synthetic it might be easier but

9 that doesn't happen.

10 So anyway, Colehour, I'll turn it

11 over to you for discussion.

12 MEMBER BONDERA: Okay, thank you.

13 Yes, to be honest with you all I'm not

14 prepared to do a general presentation on this

15 subject area, but I can try in the moment to

16 accomplish that just in terms of what we as a

17 subcommittee did with the process.

18 So, I think that there was a

19 little bit of questioning regarding the

20 classification issue in terms of the as21 petitioned part. I think that the fact is

22 that it relates to the clarity that is shared
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1 in the listing part regarding whether -- how

2 the tocopherols are derived.

3 And I think that that's a critical

4 component. Like it says in the listing motion

5 tocopherols derived from vegetable oils are

6 allowed as ingredients in aquatic livestock

7 production when rosemary extracts are not a

8 suitable alternative.

9 And so I think that there's a

10 bunch of questions brought up in there in

11 terms of how the tocopherols are derived and

12 what is suitable for what purposes. But I

13 think that we went through the process. I

14 think if you look at the checklist you can see

15 that in a number of cases there are times when

16 both yes and no are checked because of those

17 same factors, that there are, for example, in

18 the same one that Tracy was just referring to,

19 you know, item number 4, is the substance

20 created by naturally occurring biological

21 processes? Well, there are naturally

22 occurring tocopherols. But the petition is
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1 for synthetic tocopherols. So I think that we

2 need to recognize that range of issues.

3 And I think that how the

4 tocopherols are extracted was definitely one

5 of the turning points of our conversation. I

6 think that we did as a subcommittee, and I

7 won't be able to quote this accurately, but we

8 did go, so maybe Tracy will chime in here, we

9 did go back and forth a little bit with where

10 we were going to -- what was included as

11 annotation language and/or specific language.

12 I believe, and again, I'm not looking at it at

13 this moment so I can't read it, but I believe

14 I suggested and for some time period we

15 actually entertained an annotation that was

16 more comprehensive than what we ended up with.

17 Again, I can't quote that. I don't know if

18 somebody has that available to read.

19 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes, let me address

20 that. This was one of the proposals that was

21 originally posted for discussion at the fall

22 meeting. And so we did receive some public
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1 comment back on the more restrictive

2 annotation that we had put in there which

3 specifically excluded tocopherols made by

4 volatile solvents.

5 And the feedback we got from the

6 comments at the defunct fall meeting was that

7 there were essentially no such tocopherols

8 that were commercially available for these

9 applications.

10 So, I did a little digging after

11 that public comment period and after that

12 meeting had been canceled and I did get some

13 feedback that there are particularly for

14 personal cosmetic use and personal care

15 products use organic non-volatile solvent

16 extracted tocopherols available on the

17 marketplace.

18 One of the things that I found

19 that we really struggle with is understanding

20 true commercial availability in the quantities

21 necessary. Because we get conflicting

22 feedback on that on public comment. We don't
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1 always have the resources available to gather

2 that information ourselves.

3 So, while we removed the specific

4 reference to non-hexane or non-volatile

5 solvent extractions from the annotation we do

6 know that there are some organic tocopherols

7 non-volatile solvent extractions.

8 So this is definitely one of the

9 ones that regardless of the other public

10 comments we got for aquaculture in general we

11 felt like we probably were going to need to

12 present to the public and post for getting

13 additional feedback in preparation for this

14 meeting. But regardless it will be referred

15 back to committee for a little bit of

16 tweaking.

17 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, Tracy.

18 I guess that was my final intention was to

19 read part of the minority opinion into the

20 record. It does appear in our proposed

21 recommendation and it does refer to one of the

22 interactions, a letter from OO Organics which
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1 supports actually the consistent availability

2 of natural tocopherols extracted without

3 synthetic solvents.

4 And the letter states, "I have

5 sold non-GMO non-solvent extracted tocopherol

6 since 2005 both BASF, an international

7 ingredient manufacturer out of Germany, and

8 BTSA, a company specializing in non-GMO

9 tocopherols, supply this material. It is

10 consistently available and is broadly used in

11 the food, cosmetic and household cleaning

12 business.

13 "Additionally, I have been ISO

14 certified documents for a supplier in China so

15 I believe it available around the world."

16 So, you know, partly for that

17 reason I voted and ended up in a minority

18 position in the discussions with the -- like

19 Tracy said she and I were co-leading this but

20 in the Livestock Subcommittee's deliberations

21 and conclusions.

22 But I think with that I think I
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1 feel fine wrapping it up and listening to

2 other people's input. Thank you.

3 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, maybe

5 this is not a very smart question but I

6 appreciate the availability of non-GMO non7 solvent tocopherols.

8 But if tocopherols were not added

9 to the list wouldn't they also have to be from

10 organic sources? As livestock feed.

11 CHAIR STONE: I take that as a

12 question to the committee to evaluate. I

13 would add to that that the committee look at

14 feed manufacturing for aquaculture animals and

15 availability of -- we heard at one of the

16 committee meetings that there's like a cold

17 water species vitamin mineral pack and a warm

18 water species.

19 And just because they're available

20 -- what's the commercial availability and the

21 ability for feed manufacturers to access them

22 to get them into these diets. I think we
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1 heard some issues around that.

2 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes, I'll just add

3 that just because they're available on the

4 market doesn't mean that they're commercially

5 available, to Mac's point, for the type of

6 application we need. We certainly need to do

7 a little more digging on that.

8 CHAIR STONE: Jay, did you have

9 your hand up?

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. I

11 have two points to make. One is I know it's

12 really important to understand these materials

13 in the context of how they're regulated in

14 other environments such as the FDA. And

15 understanding that something is GRAS listed

16 they're generally recognized as safe at FDA is

17 certainly part of the deliberations.

18 But I think we should be careful

19 as a Board to reference GRAS as if it equates

20 with the standards of the Organic Foods

21 Production Act. And I see that creeping into

22 a lot of the documents.
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1 If we want to reference GRAS we

2 should be very specific, I believe, as to how

3 that review -- because there are a variety of

4 reviews under that GRAS listing -- how that

5 specific review relates to the OFPA standards.

6 And that's going to be important down the road

7 as -- and has been important in different

8 conversations.

9 The other issue I think we have to

10 look at is given this being used as a vitamin

11 and it's -- this is in the minority position,

12 actually.

13 Usually, when we're looking at

14 vitamins for terrestrial animals they're --

15 well, in the case of vitamins for terrestrial

16 animals they're restricted to enrichment or

17 fortification when FDA approved.

18 And so I guess the question is

19 whether that is the case in this case. Are we

20 talking about -- are we being consistent with

21 vitamins that are listed for terrestrial

22 animals? And are we restricting it in the
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1 same way that we've restricted it for

2 terrestrial use.

3 So, those are my two comments.

4 Thank you.

5 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jay.

6 Calvin?

7 SECRETARY WALKER: Jay, that

8 comment was also echoed by some of the written

9 commenters because we did not do that. To use

10 it with the same annotation when only for

11 enrichment. So that's something we would have

12 to look at for sure.

13 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Madam Chair,

14 we're a few minutes ahead of a scheduled

15 break. If we can get one more done we're

16 almost halfway your agenda for the morning.

17 So maybe we can add one more and then we'll

18 take a break.

19 MEMBER FAVRE: All right, thank

20 you. Next on the agenda is a petition for

21 aquaculture minerals for aquatic animals.

22 Francis, I believe you're the lead on that.
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1 Lisa?

2 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The

3 petition for minerals to be used in aquatic

4 animal production was submitted on March 27,

5 2012 by the Aquaculture Working Group.

6 In support of its review the

7 Livestock Subcommittee did specifically

8 request a technical evaluation report for

9 minerals to address the petition. That report

10 was completed in 2013 and is posted on the NOP

11 website.

12 There is an analogous listing for

13 minerals on Section 205.603 of the National

14 List under paragraph (d) as feed additives,

15 subparagraph (2) for trace minerals. Thanks.

16 MEMBER FAVRE: Francis?

17 MEMBER THICKE: One thing we did

18 is that we recognized the trace mineral

19 element that Lisa mentioned really actually in

20 practice includes all minerals, macro minerals

21 as well.

22 Generally trace minerals to animal
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1 scientists and cell scientists means a certain

2 group of them. It doesn't include the macro

3 mineral. So anyway, we changed the

4 nomenclature to "minerals" instead of "trace

5 minerals" first of all.

6 And then secondly we just kind of

7 put it parallel to with livestock production

8 already in the existing rules and allowed for

9 minerals that are essential for animals

10 basically. I don't know, I don't have any

11 other comments to make.

12 CHAIR STONE: Comments?

13 Questions? Other committee members outside?

14 Zea?

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: I didn't think

16 I had any questions till Francis just said

17 that. But what that isn't a trace mineral

18 might be used as a mineral in fish? Is it

19 potassium or calcium or what?

20 CHAIR STONE: Francis.

21 MEMBER THICKE: You know, I can't

22 really answer that but I presume that they
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1 need calcium, magnesium, potassium, phosphorus

2 for their bodybuilding. I guess I made an

3 assumption there.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: I mean, it's

5 not on this list and the list of what was

6 petitioned with the exception of potassium

7 iodide which is both potassium and iodide, but

8 all the rest are truly trace minerals.

9 MEMBER THICKE: You're right. But

10 when we talked to the working group they

11 didn't really I think understand. They said

12 they meant all minerals when they did it and

13 they were a little unclear of how they ended

14 up -- they just took the trace mineral

15 nomenclature out of the existing rule. And so

16 in our discussions with them they indicated

17 they meant all minerals. Even though,

18 actually you're right, they listed only a few.

19 So it's a little confusing.

20 So we decided that in discussing

21 with the program and with the working group

22 that they intended to have all minerals, and
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1 that if we didn't have all minerals it wasn't

2 complete.

3 CHAIR STONE: Very good. Other

4 thoughts? Colehour?

5 MEMBER BONDERA: I hesitate to

6 bring this up because I'm guilty of it as

7 well, but process-wise I'm a little bit

8 concerned that we're not each -- when each

9 lead person is presenting these reviewing what

10 public comment has come in and discussing that

11 as part of the presentation of the topic.

12 I would like us to try to do so

13 just because that's been very useful for me as

14 an NOSB member.

15 I do have a separate point I want

16 to ask. I don't know if, Francis, you want to

17 address that.

18 MEMBER THICKE: Are you referring

19 to particular public comments? Were you

20 referring to specific public comments? I'm

21 not prepared. I don't have them reviewed in

22 front of me. I'm sorry.
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1 MEMBER BONDERA: My experience is

2 just at least a general commentary on what the

3 public comment was is good for other members

4 to contemplate the topic.

5 MEMBER THICKE: Good point, but

6 I'm not prepared to do that. Sorry.

7 CHAIR STONE: Just for

8 clarification so Tony can follow the

9 transcripts. I like the fast nature of back

10 and forth conversation but it does sort of

11 need to route just to be sure the transcripts

12 are clear later. Although it makes more sense

13 for people to have a conversation.

14 I've got Tracy and then Calvin.

15 MEMBER FAVRE: Colehour, I think

16 that's a good point. I re-reviewed the public

17 comments for livestock last night and in

18 general there were a few comments that spoke

19 specifically to individual materials. And as

20 we come to them hopefully those will be

21 brought up.

22 But I'd say that in general most
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1 of the comments were along the lines of don't

2 do it. We have no standards.

3 CHAIR STONE: Calvin?

4 SECRETARY WALKER: In addition to

5 what Tracy just mentioned in the presentation

6 on vitamins I did summarize all of the public

7 comment and it was along the line of what

8 Tracy mentioned. And I do have the numbers

9 and it will be shared.

10 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, in light

12 of the last little bit of discussion I do

13 respectfully request that if this is going

14 back to committee that there be a list or

15 characterization of what type of minerals are

16 being voted on in the motion.

17 Because I thought I was prepared

18 to vote for this at least for ponds but now

19 I'm very uncomfortable with what might be in

20 that list of minerals for fish. Thank you.

21 CHAIR STONE: And I assume other

22 aquatic creatures as well.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, for

2 plants we'd need to stick to only trace

3 minerals as defined in the statute for crops

4 I think.

5 CHAIR STONE: Right, but

6 crustaceans and shellfish and other types.

7 Jay and then Francis.

8 MEMBER FELDMAN: I believe we did

9 receive a comment about needing more

10 specificity on minerals. I think that came in

11 if I'm not mistaken from Oregon Tilth.

12 But in any event, I know that I

13 wanted to reference on the specificity issue

14 under 6517(b) of OFPA it says, "The list

15 established under Subsection (a) of this

16 section shall contain an itemization by

17 specific use or application of each synthetic

18 substance permitted under Subsection (c)(1) of

19 this section."

20 So I guess that would provide more

21 basis for more specificity given a use pattern

22 or specific need being addressed. That seems
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1 to be something we might want to do when we go

2 back to the subcommittee.

3 CHAIR STONE: Francis?

4 MEMBER THICKE: So Jay, are you

5 suggesting that in the annotation it should

6 list all of the essential elements for

7 animals?

8 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. Well,

10 you know, if we get down to the species and

11 what is needed if there's any unique -- if

12 there's any uniqueness associated with the

13 need for these materials on a routine basis,

14 yes, I think we should list them and identify

15 -- hopefully identify the specific species in

16 which they are being used.

17 CHAIR STONE: Francis?

18 MEMBER THICKE: We could do that.

19 It would be very complicated when you're

20 getting down to the level of species. But I'd

21 refer back to the crop production listing for

22 minerals. It says trace minerals used for
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1 enrichment for fortification when FDA

2 approved.

3 So, if you were to list the 18

4 essential elements and then try to do it by

5 species it would get pretty complicated.

6 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, I guess the

7 question here is the distinction between trace

8 minerals and minerals. Okay, so that would be

9 one distinction that's being made.

10 And if we're making the case for

11 routine use as opposed to a more specific use

12 as needed or given a specific use pattern I

13 think that would be helpful.

14 But certainly the distinction

15 between trace minerals and synthetic minerals

16 would be helpful.

17 But in the case of listing the,

18 you know, I know when we dealt with micro

19 nutrients in the past at least from a crops

20 perspective we've identified the specific use

21 and need and been very specific about that.

22 So I think it would be helpful to list -- at
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1 least provide the list and differentiate

2 between the trace minerals and the synthetic

3 minerals.

4 CHAIR STONE: Francis, do you all

5 want to take this outside?

6 MEMBER THICKE: No, no, no. I'm

7 not arguing with you, Jay. It's just that I'm

8 trying to get clarity here.

9 I understand that in the plant

10 side where it's just trace minerals. It gets

11 complicated because then we think about if we

12 have a true aquaculture system where there are

13 plants and animals together, and we have a

14 real, true multitrophic system we perhaps

15 don't need to use trace minerals for the plant

16 side.

17 On the animal side we probably

18 still do need to, as we do in terrestrial

19 animals. So we can discuss it later I guess.

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. This goes

21 to the larger issue of routine use and routine

22 dependency outside of a system. So I think
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1 that's where the complication comes in.

2 Because when we look at some of

3 these things we might be able to provide them

4 from natural sources depending on the system

5 that's available.

6 CHAIR STONE: And I don't want to

7 make light of that. It's very good. That's

8 exactly what the committee is looking for in

9 this conversation. So, Harold?

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: I think one

11 approach to take though would be similar to

12 crops, Jay.

13 I think it would be part of the

14 organic systems plan. And it would have to be

15 a validation justification for the use. And

16 the producer would have to take and be able to

17 show that in some way, shape, or form that

18 there is a need. And it would be a part of

19 their organic systems plan. And then for

20 review at their annual review and audit.

21 So I think the mechanism is in

22 place to be able to justify that and prove
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1 that. But that would be something I think as

2 we look at rulemaking and we come up with

3 those guidelines I think that would definitely

4 be something to make sure that that's a part

5 of. To give us that balance, Jay, that we're

6 looking for.

7 CHAIR STONE: Okay, thank you.

8 That was I think a very rewarding conversation

9 we've had this morning, Madam Chair. Exactly

10 what I think the committee is looking for.

11 I've got 10:40. Maybe we'll come

12 back at 10 -- let's come back at 11. Thank

13 you very much.

14 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

15 went off the record at 10:40 a.m. and went

16 back on the record at 11:02 a.m.)

17 SECRETARY WALKER: Thank you,

18 Madam Chair. They say why be a copy when you

19 can be an original so I'm doing a little

20 PowerPoint here. And for the audience and

21 Board members of the material that the public

22 has seen is a part of the PowerPoint
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1 presentation.

2 And also I have the subcommittee

3 listed but it's also, it may be a conflict of

4 interest for maybe financial gain. Miles is

5 not here. Because when I get back to work,

6 when they start talking about merit pay and

7 what have you been doing I could add these

8 documents to show that my name was on the

9 presentation. So it does have a cache.

10 I think Dave Willis mentioned

11 yesterday the word "cache." It could have

12 that benefit for me in the next one or two

13 years.

14 Okay, next as Dr. Brines has read

15 -- sorry about the small print. This went out

16 to the public by way of summary of the

17 proposed action. Essentially it said that

18 synthetic vitamins is already on the National

19 List. It's listed at OFPA 6517(c)(1)(B)(i).

20 There was a TR requested and the

21 Livestock Subcommittee did get a TR for

22 aquatic vitamins. Essentially the evaluation
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1 criteria, the committee at that point in time

2 we thought that it met the criteria. It did

3 meet the criteria of impact on humans and the

4 environment. And I'll show you the public

5 comment where they had a lot of concerns based

6 upon how we evaluated aquaculture vitamins for

7 animals.

8 Essentiality, we checked it yes.

9 And compatibility and consistency, yes.

10 In terms of the subcommittee's

11 vote as Colehour was asking as it relates to

12 this the vote, everyone on the committee voted

13 to move the aquaculture vitamin petition

14 forward to the public. And for the

15 classification motion there was 15 vitamins

16 that was petitioned by the Aquaculture Working

17 Group. And no annotations.

18 And it will be mentioned later on

19 that some of the commenters as Jay mentioned

20 wanted to see an annotation. Even with

21 terrestrials there is an annotation for

22 enrichment so we did not have that. So some
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1 of the commenters wanted to see that.

2 Okay. If we can get to general

3 public comments. During the time that I was

4 -- based on my count in the fall of 2013 we

5 had seven commenters, 29 percent approved what

6 was put forward as it relates to aquaculture

7 vitamins.

8 In the spring of 2014 there were

9 79 commenters. Only 3 percent approved. And

10 it doesn't take a lot to do the math. If you

11 multiply 3 percent times 79 you can see that

12 there was only a few that actually support it,

13 what was put forward.

14 And it was primarily the

15 Aquaculture Working Group that supported the

16 petition.

17 I have a little asterisk at the

18 bottom for those of you like me who can barely

19 see sometimes is that Food and Water Watch had

20 over 11,000 signatures. The only state that

21 I did not see was North Dakota. And it was 10

22 countries.
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1 Next slide relates to public

2 comments. Came in from a citizen from

3 Washington. It was Anne. She gave an

4 excellent presentation on yesterday. But we

5 were told during the training about how not to

6 mention the names. So I just unveiled her.

7 Her name was Anne I think from Bellingham,

8 Washington. She was the one that had the

9 commercial fish operation.

10 Someone from New York, MOSA,

11 MOFGA. Sero Kolawa from Hawaii voiced

12 opposition. Tennessee, North Carolina,

13 Limburg, Belgium, you name it. Also, Oregon

14 Tilth supported the vitamins but they wanted

15 to see it similar with the annotation as in

16 terrestrials. When FDA approved an

17 annotation.

18 What I thought was more for lack

19 of a better word is, again it is very rare

20 since I've been on the Board to have

21 Cornucopia, Center for Food Safety, Organic

22 Trade Association, Food and Water Works,
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1 Beyond Pesticides, PCC Markets and others all

2 on the same page. So, when you get all on the

3 same page it kind of gives you pause to say

4 that something is wrong.

5 And when I was at Oregon State my

6 advisor Dr. England said that he never made

7 errors, he made mistakes. And then Robert

8 Kennedy said a mistake is not a mistake until

9 you refuse to correct it.

10 And the message that seemed to be

11 with the public is that we need to take these

12 back, take this back and address some of the

13 concerns. Even Zea had mentioned about are

14 these for closed, are these for net pens.

15 And these were some of the things

16 that we briefly had mentioned in the Livestock

17 Subcommittee but we didn't ferret it out as we

18 placed it in the document before you.

19 Okay, the next one, about two more

20 minutes here of public comments. The

21 Aquaculture Working Group supported vitamins

22 for animal adequacy.
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1 Organic Trade Association gave

2 four reasons to take it back. One was they

3 supported tabling vitamins recommendations

4 until the proposed rule is out.

5 The question of essentiality

6 cannot be evaluated outside the context of

7 production standards.

8 The third reason, material

9 evaluation for the National List cannot occur

10 in a vacuum.

11 And then the fourth reason for

12 bringing these back to the committee was the

13 need for annotation for specific restrictions

14 on materials.

15 Food and Water Watch, basically

16 the same. There's no rule so these should be

17 pulled back.

18 Anne from Washington again said

19 that -- do not contribute to the demise of the

20 integrity of the U.S. organic standards and

21 reputation by bringing these forth within the

22 absence of the rule.
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1 And she also expressed concerns

2 about biodiversity and environmental impact.

3 And one particular person -- she

4 also stated this which said by draining the

5 Southeast Pacific oceans of wild fish for feed

6 salmon farmers are stealing fish out of the

7 mouth of Latin American people.

8 Beyond Pesticides, the same

9 reason. Essentiality cannot be addressed

10 without standards.

11 Also, the concern of open versus

12 closed systems needed to be defined, et

13 cetera. And we can go on and on.

14 Consumers Union expressed some of

15 the same things. And they also went to say

16 that the 100 percent organic feed should be

17 required for carnivore fish and migratory

18 fish.

19 Also, Consumers Union stated that

20 NOSB should consider certain recommendations

21 such as open ocean systems should be

22 prohibited. Wild-caught fish for feed meal
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1 and fishmeal should also be prohibited.

2 Oregon Tilth recommended using the

3 same annotation that we use for terrestrial

4 animals. Vitamins used for enrichment and

5 fortification when FDA approved.

6 MOFGA, Maine Organic Farmers and

7 Gardeners Association, essentially said the

8 same thing.

9 National Organic Coalition, same

10 thing.

11 And essentially the National

12 Organic Coalition says that for various

13 systems we need to have a definition of what

14 a closed system is.

15 Center for Food Safety outlined

16 what a closed system should look like. One

17 hundred percent feed. And they even suggested

18 using a closed system land base as a

19 demonstration to see if it works before we go

20 forward.

21 And their concern was also about

22 as one guy in Louisiana asked me, he said Doc,
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1 he said what's the difference between tilapia

2 organic in a net pen versus tilapia outside of

3 the pen.

4 You know, it took me awhile to

5 fumble through an answer but basically I had

6 to tell him it was basically feed. So, even

7 those who may not really understand organic as

8 we might, we have to make sure that these

9 definitions for closed and open systems are

10 clear.

11 Madam Chairman that's in a

12 nutshell what we have.

13 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Calvin.

14 CHAIR STONE: Are there some

15 specific input that Board members would like

16 to give to Calvin as the lead on this material

17 and the subcommittee in general? Harold?

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes, thanks Mac.

19 Calvin, just a point of clarification. On the

20 classification motion you've got the list of

21 the vitamins and stuff.

22 Tocopherols, CAS 59-02-9. What's
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1 the difference between here and the ones that

2 we discussed previously before taking a break?

3 SECRETARY WALKER: My answer would

4 be they should be the same. Anybody else have

5 any? Which is vitamin E.

6 MEMBER FAVRE: It's the

7 application of the tocopherols are slightly

8 different in the petitioned use when they were

9 petitioned separately.

10 CHAIR STONE: Correct. One was

11 for fishmeal stabilization, feed

12 stabilization. The other was for feeding the

13 animal as we understood that. But thank you,

14 Harold.

15 Other questions, comments? Jean?

16 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Mine's sort of

17 a question to staff if it would be helpful to

18 have Calvin's analysis of the consumer

19 comments to be part of your transcript.

20 Because otherwise he read some of them in but

21 not all of them and he has quite a lot of

22 useful detail there. And rather than us all
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1 take time to do it.

2 I did a somewhat similar analysis

3 but his looks much better than mine did. I

4 was just wondering if that would be helpful to

5 you to have that as you go forward out of this

6 meeting or if it's okay just the way it was

7 done?

8 CHAIR STONE: We can have the

9 PowerPoint and Calvin's notes as part of the

10 record for our deliberation today.

11 DR. BAILEY: I'm sorry, we were

12 talking. What did you say, Mac?

13 CHAIR STONE: Just Jean wanted to

14 make sure that we captured the public

15 comments. And I say that we could incorporate

16 his presentation as to part of our

17 documentation of this conversation.

18 DR. BAILEY: Sure, yes, that's

19 fine. Those kinds of comments will be most

20 important to the staff once you actually are

21 voting on any kind of proposal and giving us

22 a recommendation. But sure, that sounds fine.
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1 CHAIR STONE: But so yes, Jean,

2 you don't need to repeat that when we come

3 back around. Other specific comments to the

4 material or overarching kind of thoughts?

5 Jay?

6 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes, under the

7 overarching. And you just mentioned it,

8 Calvin. Thank you very much for that thorough

9 presentation, by the way, and collating all

10 those opinions and input to the Board.

11 You mentioned in your response to

12 the student what's the difference. And you

13 said feed. And that got me thinking back to

14 some of the comments we've received about the

15 organic law supporting natural behavior of

16 animals.

17 Does the -- I know we've talked

18 about different systems, but it seems to me,

19 and I'd be curious if anybody has a different

20 opinion on this, that one of the screens that

21 the Board should apply when it looks at these

22 inputs is natural behavior of the animal, and
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1 whether that material would be necessary or

2 essential to the animal in its natural

3 environment.

4 And how does that apply to these

5 individual materials as we presumably send

6 these things back to the subcommittee and then

7 evaluate them. So that's an overarching

8 question I think that could be applied to all

9 these things. But it's something that came up

10 in the testimony that we received over the

11 last couple of days.

12 CHAIR STONE: John?

13 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I think that's

14 a good idea. The challenge is defining a

15 natural environment for animals and plants for

16 that matter that have been bred for several

17 thousand years in many cases. That's an

18 interesting, as those who know me know this is

19 a topic of some interest for me, like how we

20 define that is also important.

21 I think it's a really good point

22 and a good direction but what constitutes
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1 natural in agriculture is -- that can be a

2 difficult thing.

3 MEMBER FELDMAN: And in this case

4 I'd qualify that. I meant natural behavior.

5 And I understand that behavior can be bred as

6 well.

7 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Others? And

8 this was clearly -- was this a clearly defined

9 list of vitamins in the petition is the

10 question I had. I don't know this one or one

11 of -- this one was clearly defined? Very

12 good.

13 Anything else? Very good. The

14 break didn't put the brakes on the ship moving

15 across the sea as they say. So, very good.

16 I think that's it, Madam Chair.

17 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay. Thank you,

18 Calvin. Thank you, everyone, for your

19 comments.

20 The next proposal is a petition

21 for aquaculture biologics vaccine for aquatic

22 animals. Jean is the lead on that. Lisa?
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1 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The

2 petition for biologics vaccines was submitted

3 on June 12, 2012 by the Aquaculture Working

4 Group.

5 The petition requests the

6 inclusion of vaccines to the National List for

7 aquatic animal production.

8 In support of its review the

9 Livestock Subcommittee did request the

10 development of a third party technical

11 evaluation report. That report was completed

12 in early 2014 and is posted on the NOP

13 website.

14 There is one analogous listing for

15 biologics vaccines on the National List at

16 Section 205.603 for organic livestock

17 production under paragraph (a)(4). Thanks.

18 MEMBER FAVRE: Jean?

19 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you.

20 The petitioner requests vaccines including

21 vaccines made with excluded methods for

22 medical treatment of aquatic animals.
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1 Obviously when we worked through

2 this we would not at any point be proposing

3 vaccines made with excluded methods. So the

4 vote that we would -- our recommendation that

5 we came up with was that it would be -- we

6 would propose to approve vaccines except for

7 those produced by excluded methods.

8 The petitioner used somewhat

9 similar kind of language to suggest that

10 because vaccines are approved for livestock,

11 land-based livestock it would be the same

12 kinds of approach for vaccines that would be

13 used under aquatic conditions.

14 The products containing biologics

15 are regulated through USDA Center for

16 Veterinary Biologics. So, they provided us

17 information on that.

18 They explained how the vaccines

19 would be given, injected intramuscularly or

20 orally and to the fish. Primarily finfish

21 would be receiving these. The technical

22 report differentiated clearly between
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1 inactivated and modified live vaccines. And

2 believed that they would be significant to

3 have these, very important because of the

4 conditions under which the animals would be

5 being produced. Although there was a lack of

6 specificity on exactly what that would be.

7 Internationally vaccines are

8 allowed in aquaculture in the United Kingdom,

9 Canada, Japan, Sweden, except for GMO

10 vaccines. The European Union allows GMO

11 vaccines in aquaculture as an exception to

12 their rule.

13 The vote to move this forward, the

14 listing motion was that they are synthetic --

15 one person was absent. There were six yeses,

16 no nos, no abstentions, no recusals. The

17 listing motion to move it forward was five

18 yes, one no, one absent, no abstentions and no

19 recusals.

20 The public comments that were

21 received on this were very much -- my analysis

22 was very, very similar to that of Calvin's so
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1 I won't repeat it here.

2 I would say that there were a

3 range of organizations and certifiers that put

4 in comments including Beyond Pesticides,

5 MOFGA, OTCO that had some comments also on

6 CO2.

7 There were 68 individuals that

8 provided information and many of the

9 organizations had a large following of people

10 who obviously were involved in providing those

11 organizations with comments.

12 I should say that the comments

13 lacked specificity as to materials. So that's

14 why we're really just getting general

15 comments. They were -- except for chlorine

16 and CO2. They all related to the lack of

17 standards so they were all rather general in

18 nature.

19 We also have one minority opinion

20 from Colehour on this subject. And Madam

21 Chair, I'm not sure if this is the appropriate

22 time to have Colehour want to make your
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1 comments at this time because you had some

2 serious concerns about allowing this to go

3 forward. Thank you.

4 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes, Colehour, I'd

5 suggest you might want to raise them here.

6 CHAIR STONE: Colehour?

7 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Yes,

8 I think that I would like to repeat some of

9 what I did -- what is shared. And I think

10 that generally speaking in terms of the

11 listing motion, you know, it's from my

12 personal experience and background critical

13 that the annotation was included regarding

14 accepting those with excluded methods. Just

15 for the record I wanted to note that.

16 I think that the one thing that

17 I'll spend the few moments focusing on is I

18 think that the clarity of the checklist in

19 terms of the information provided in the

20 comments and documentation and like Lisa told

21 us when we asked the program or the program

22 commented about the checklist process, it kind
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1 of doesn't matter whether or not the answer

2 chosen is yes or no. What matters is the

3 comments.

4 And I would actually agree that

5 it's very nice that the comments are pretty

6 thorough and are there. However, I think that

7 it's misleading in a number of cases that the

8 no column is chosen when the comments if you

9 read them essentially suggest that yes, I

10 think that the probability of environmental

11 contamination during use or misuse really

12 suggests that that is a yes answer is one

13 example. And I think that there's a number

14 more that are similar to that.

15 I think the one question, category

16 1, number 9, "Are there adverse biological and

17 chemical interactions in the agro-ecosystem"

18 really suggests that maybe we're lacking

19 sufficient information to decide that the

20 answer is no.

21 So, I think that my general sense

22 is, and I very much do not mean this as a
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1 commentary to Jean who has put so much work

2 into these vaccines in the last several years

3 in terms of getting up to speed and

4 understanding it.

5 But I just think that we are -- I

6 think my general sense is maybe that the

7 information isn't well enough rounded and/or

8 the presentation of it is not as clear as it

9 could be. And I think that that's really the

10 main motivation I had in that regard to come

11 up with my minority thoughts to make sure that

12 the broader picture is there.

13 So that's all I wanted to share.

14 Thank you.

15 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thank you,

16 Colehour, not just for that but for

17 incorporating that into the written materials.

18 Zea?

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Mac.

20 I have two very specific questions about this

21 which means that I guess I'm glad we're

22 sending it back because granted this may not
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1 be me reading the TR very thoroughly. I did,

2 I confess, rather skim through it and didn't

3 look up the citations like I do in a lot of

4 the TRs.

5 But my two specific questions are

6 this. And this is one that I think would

7 benefit the most from standards being out

8 before we look at it.

9 It mentions in a general way that

10 overcrowding contributes to the need for the

11 vaccinations. And -- but not -- I didn't see

12 any specific information on the relationship

13 between stocking density and the need for

14 vaccinations.

15 And I don't know if there's going

16 to be stocking density provisions in the

17 standards. And so that would be a question I

18 would have is if there is any specific

19 research on the relationship between stocking

20 density, overcrowding and the need for

21 vaccinations.

22 The second point is that I would
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1 really want to know what happened if you

2 vaccinated fish in a net pen and one of them

3 escaped, whether that fish would have a

4 competitive advantage over the wild fish in

5 the ocean because it was so vaccinated and

6 more healthy.

7 So this would be another reason I

8 would feel like I couldn't vote for it in a

9 net pen until that question was explored.

10 Thank you.

11 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Zea.

12 Jean?

13 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I can sort of

14 answer the questions in part. Some of it was

15 in the TR but the TR would not specifically

16 answer your question.

17 But when we talk to people on our

18 conference calls and also when we made that

19 field visit that we did to Maine and discussed

20 with the aquaculture experts there how they

21 were actually doing vaccines they don't

22 necessarily prophylactically do vaccinations.
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1 It varies enormously from species to species.

2 And again, they were not listed separately

3 species by species of finfish in the TR.

4 But the use of the vaccines really

5 does vary enormously as to how they're used.

6 For many of them no vaccine is given until it

7 looks like there may be a problem. And so

8 then they would be given in order to protect

9 that immediate flock at the time.

10 And I don't have an answer to your

11 second question is does a vaccinated fish

12 getting out be at a competitive edge. I don't

13 have an answer to that.

14 Certainly there's a lot of

15 difference between whether or not they're

16 dealing with killed or not killed vaccines

17 that are being administered to the fish.

18 I think one of the other issues

19 for the fish in terms of fish humane treatment

20 is the extent to which they're being given

21 things like the equivalent of lidocaine

22 procaine or stunned in order so that they
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1 don't get upset when they get vaccinated.

2 There's a whole range of other issues I think

3 that we could have -- we'll need greater

4 specificity on which hopefully will come out

5 when we get the standards.

6 CHAIR STONE: Other suggestions,

7 thoughts for Jean as the lead and the

8 subcommittee in general to discuss around the

9 vaccines? Jennifer?

10 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you. Can

11 you tell me if you're able to look at

12 different kinds of alternative systems that

13 may lower the need for vaccinations or any of

14 the other strategies that we're looking for?

15 As you're looking at systems and

16 developing a protocol maybe you can look at

17 alternative management or alternative types of

18 scenarios that would bring about a system

19 maybe where vaccinations aren't needed or as

20 much. Or some of the other protocols that

21 were looking at it as well.

22 CHAIR STONE: Jean?
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1 MEMBER TAYLOR: I'm probably not -

2 - I mean, obviously I'm on a learning curve on

3 this as well. My understanding from the way

4 in which the standards upon which we were

5 basing our discussions were going to be

6 similar to the recommendations that went

7 forward from the NOSB in those three separate

8 recommendations that went into the NOP from

9 the foundation for the upcoming regulations.

10 So that the way to minimize the

11 use of vaccines is to have extremely low

12 stocking densities and also to incorporate a

13 range of other fish species and plant species

14 that would somewhat assimilate a more natural

15 living condition.

16 But there would be, for example,

17 if they're in net pens out in the ocean there

18 would be an interior net pen in which the fish

19 species that was being raised would be

20 located. And then maybe other fish species

21 within that.

22 And in an outer sort of circle
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1 around it in another sort of external net as

2 well other fish species and plant species that

3 would assimilate to some extent the natural

4 ecological conditions of the area so that the

5 overuse of vaccines wouldn't take place.

6 But the assumption is that there's

7 for some fish species that preventive vaccines

8 may still be necessary nonetheless.

9 But vaccines are expensive,

10 difficult, fiddly to do, dangerous sometimes

11 to the person giving the vaccine because

12 they're literally, they're vaccinated. You

13 know, you handle the fish and you put the

14 needle into it. So if they can avoid that

15 they're obviously going to do so.

16 The other things in terms of

17 systems within which we made this conversation

18 was the assumption that there would indeed be

19 rotational grazing of the net pens.

20 The net pens would be left fallow

21 for -- used for one cropping season and then

22 those net pens, both the interior and the
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1 exterior, but sort of the interior ones would

2 be emptied out.

3 There would be no fish in there

4 and that those areas would be left fallow for

5 a period of time. Whether that was 9 months

6 or 3 years would again vary depending on the

7 geographical location of the net pens and that

8 that would allow for recovery of the local

9 benthic environment prior to restocking again.

10 So yes, I think that you make a

11 very good point, that there are management

12 activities that could take place that would

13 reduce the need for an excessive use of

14 vaccines. Thank you.

15 CHAIR STONE: Anything else from

16 the Board? All right, thank you very much.

17 Madam Chair, next one?

18 MEMBER FAVRE: Sorry, I was making

19 notes about things to include.

20 CHAIR STONE: Take your time.

21 MEMBER FAVRE: Next on the agenda

22 is we are now getting into the aquatic plants
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1 petition material. Next on the agenda is a

2 petition for -- aquaculture micronutrients for

3 aquatic plants. And Francis, you're the lead

4 on that

5 CHAIR STONE: Lisa?

6 DR. BRINES: We're starting with

7 micronutrients?

8 CHAIR STONE: Yes.

9 DR. BRINES: Okay, sorry. The

10 petition for micronutrients was submitted on

11 June 7, 2012 by the Aquaculture Working Group.

12 It requests the use of micronutrients in

13 aquatic plant production.

14 This petition was not on the

15 agenda for the October meeting so it's a new

16 item.

17 There is an analogous listing for

18 micronutrients on the National List for

19 organic plant production under Section 205.601

20 of the National List under paragraph (j) as

21 plant and soil amendments. Thanks.

22 CHAIR STONE: Francis?
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1 MEMBER THICKE: Yes. So the

2 listing motion includes the annotation for

3 non-vascular plants only, which means it's not

4 for hydroponics.

5 And with that we need to look

6 ahead. We didn't do that for some of the

7 other plant aquaculture things and we may need

8 to have that in there in the future.

9 The motion passed 7 to zero.

10 However, there are some controversial issues

11 in here I think and a lot of it depends upon

12 the system as it's defined. And we don't have

13 a standard so we don't know what it is.

14 But basically this proposal is for

15 a very simple system where you're supplying

16 all the nutrients to the plants. And I think

17 that in the comments, of course most of the

18 comments that came to this were about not

19 approving them until we have standards in

20 place.

21 But I think Beyond Pesticides

22 probably articulated very well this issue in
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1 that in general in organic production

2 synthetic materials are not the norm. They

3 only are there for deficiencies.

4 Like for example, crop production.

5 You have to have a soil test in order to apply

6 micronutrients.

7 Well, in a plant aquaculture the

8 way they are doing it and proposing to do it

9 is that you put in a media mix that has the

10 micronutrients in it at the onset.

11 And the rationale for that is that

12 it's very expensive and difficult to test if

13 there's a deficiency. So they just put it in

14 routinely.

15 And that basically you're starting

16 with water so you're not -- unlike soil you're

17 not going to normally have them in there. So

18 that I think is the real issue.

19 Because if you're looking at, as

20 Beyond Pesticides is talking about, a

21 multitrophic system with plants and animals

22 together the animal aquaculture will supply
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1 the nutrients for the plants. And in some

2 successful systems they do not use any

3 additional nutrients for the plants.

4 And so if that were the system

5 that we're defining then what we have here is

6 not appropriate. However, if it's a simple

7 system defined by the Aquaculture Working

8 Group that's what this is kind of targeted

9 for. So I'd be interested in people's

10 thoughts on this.

11 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Francis.

12 CHAIR STONE: Questions?

13 Comments? Thoughts? Nick?

14

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: This is just a

16 question because I wasn't part of the

17 discussion. Is this a proposal only for non18 vascular aquatic plants? And it would ignore

19 whether or not that was in a multitrophic

20 system or a system with aquatic animals.

21 MEMBER THICKE: As it's written it

22 appears it would apply to both a multitrophic
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1 system -- it could apply to both and a

2 monoculture system. A plant like maybe algae

3 or something.

4 That's the way it is now. And is

5 that the way the standards are going to be?

6 Are the standards going to require a

7 multitrophic system? The Working Group didn't

8 seem to indicate that that was the direction

9 they're going in.

10 Is that what you're talking about,

11 Nick?

12 CHAIR STONE: So, my impression,

13 and that's all it is is an impression, that

14 multitrophic systems are very much not only a

15 requirement of the standards in order to be

16 organic and to do it. It's the growers want

17 it to be, they need it to be. It's a critical

18 point.

19 Some of those may be multiple

20 saleable crops and some of those may be a

21 biofilter type of a system that's not a

22 saleable crop. So to Nick's point there's a
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1 couple of layers there that have to be sort of

2 peeled away to see just what is happening in

3 there. So, John, do you have something?

4 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: It's been

5 awhile since these were in the Crops Committee

6 where I was -- these materials were covered by

7 the Crops Committee back what seems like a

8 long time ago now.

9 But my recollection of my

10 conversations with the Aquaculture Working

11 Group representatives when I was looking at

12 these materials was that it was specified --

13 well, the utility was expected for non14 vascular plants only to generate a food source

15 for animals.

16 And in that context then I don't

17 know that it needs to be -- I don't know that

18 we -- I don't know, that was my recollection

19 anyway, and that makes sense to me. I would

20 rather have micronutrients used to feed algae

21 that were grown onsite kind of locally grown,

22 locally consumed. I would much rather have
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1 that than needing to import some other food

2 source from offsite at whatever expense.

3 So if the cost of having an

4 aquatic animal producer be able to provide

5 some of his or her own feed, if the cost of

6 that is micronutrients to grow algae that

7 seems like a really good tradeoff to me,

8 irrespective of the issues you were talking

9 about, Francis.

10 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

11 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

12 Okay. I find this really confusing now

13 because aquatic plants as far as I know does

14 not include lettuce and tomatoes grown

15 hydroponically. And yet terrestrial plants

16 doesn't either really.

17 And so, but you haven't defined

18 aquatic plants to say it does. And yet you're

19 trying to accomplish some ban on hydroponic

20 crops in an aquatic plant document which --

21 without exploring that in the checklist near

22 as I can tell.
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1 And so I could -- I would need

2 definitions and what is done in hydroponics

3 now. Because right now hydroponic people are

4 operating under the 205.601 crop standard.

5 Before you could really justify

6 this sufficiently. At very minimum a

7 definition of an aquatic plant which to me

8 does not include hydroponics at the moment.

9 CHAIR STONE: Francis?

10 MEMBER THICKE: Well, we operated

11 under the assumption that it was non-vascular

12 plants throughout. And then we put it in at

13 the end to make sure.

14 Because aquatic plants could be

15 ambiguous. It could mean non-vascular plants.

16 It could mean a plant like a tomato growing in

17 water. Somebody may say well, that's an

18 aquatic plant because it's growing in water.

19 I mean, that's why we put it in there.

20 CHAIR STONE: Okay, very good.

21 You've got your marching orders. Tracy, take

22 your time with your notes.
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1 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you for your

2 patience.

3 CHAIR STONE: Absolutely.

4 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay, no other

5 questions on -- we're good? Okay.

6 Next proposal was a petition for

7 aquaculture CO2 for aquatic plants. I was the

8 lead on that so the -- I'm sorry, Lisa. Yes,

9 thank you.

10 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The

11 petition for carbon dioxide for aquatic plant

12 use was originally submitted April 3, 2012.

13 It was updated after the initial posting on

14 the NOP website. So the current update was

15 submitted on November 20, 2012.

16 The petition requests the

17 inclusion of carbon dioxide on the National

18 List for aquatic plant production.

19 In support of its review the

20 committee did not request a technical

21 evaluation report although there are previous

22 reports available from 2006 and earlier in
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1 consideration of carbon dioxide that was

2 previously petitioned for a change on

3 handling.

4 Carbon dioxide is currently

5 included on the National List for processing

6 and handling at Section 205.605(b). Thanks.

7 CHAIR STONE: Tracy?

8 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay. So, the

9 petitioner specifically has requested

10 synthetic carbon dioxide but has actually made

11 a statement in the petition that there are

12 natural sources of carbon dioxide out there.

13 Clearly there are.

14 The reason for the petition for

15 synthetic is that geographic availability of

16 natural carbon dioxide is not reliable. And

17 likewise, there's not always a good match-up

18 where the deposits of natural CO2 exist

19 compared with where potentially they would be

20 used in aquaculture systems.

21 And they've rightfully pointed out

22 that transport of CO2 can potentially be
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1 dangerous. So that's why they've indicated

2 that they've specifically petitioned for

3 synthetic.

4 The purpose of the CO2 in

5 aquaculture systems is to be used in the

6 adjustment as a production aid for alkalinity

7 adjustment and for maintaining pH levels.

8 Basically this is going to be used

9 for culture of aquatic plants. As those

10 plants grow, particularly micro algae, the pH

11 can fluctuate due to the proliferation of the

12 plant itself. And so the CO2 would be used as

13 a pH adjustment.

14 The committee passed a motion to

15 classify carbon dioxide as petitioned as

16 synthetic, 5 yes, zero no, 2 absent, zero

17 abstain, zero recusals.

18 The listing motion was to list it

19 with the following annotation for use in

20 contained systems such as tanks and ponds.

21 That motion passed 4 yes, 1 no, 2 absent, zero

22 abstained, zero recusals.
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1 Looking at the public comment as

2 with all the other materials and as both

3 Calvin and Jean have mentioned there was very

4 little specificity around most of the

5 materials.

6 However, there were a couple of

7 comments around CO2. Beyond Pesticides

8 particularly made some very good cogent

9 remarks.

10 But I will express some

11 disagreement with the comment that they make

12 that because the carbon dioxide is consumed as

13 the algae grows that it's therefore considered

14 a synthetic micronutrient.

15 I don't necessarily agree with

16 that. I think it's a culture adjustment. And

17 it can be argued probably either way but

18 that's my personal opinion on it.

19 This was a tough one. Obviously

20 as someone sitting on the environmental

21 position on the Board there are valid reasons

22 for why CO2 production is problematic.
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1 If we do have the opportunity to

2 use the recycled version of CO2 and in most

3 cases even the synthetic CO2 is a byproduct of

4 manufacturing of other processes. Some of the

5 processes are fairly noxious including

6 petrochemical processing. But the material

7 itself is already produced. So there is some

8 mitigation of that in my mind.

9 Generally, like I said, the

10 comments were that none of the materials

11 should be approved in absence of standards.

12 And there were some particular concerns around

13 CO2.

14 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Tracy.

15 Other Board members, subcommittee members,

16 additional comments? Colehour?

17 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, thank you,

18 and thank you, Tracy. I'll just add a little

19 bit of the minority opinion on the subject

20 area since I'm the one who voted in opposition

21 to listing.

22 And I think just in summary really
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1 the general concept of a major component

2 that's necessary for aquatic plant growth in

3 an organic system in the form of a synthetic

4 chemical is really inconsistent with organic

5 principles in my opinion.

6 And as is noted in the record, and

7 I'm not going to read through it, but you

8 know, the -- this was before it came to the

9 Livestock Subcommittee considered by the Crop

10 Subcommittee and there was information that

11 indicated that additions of synthetic carbon

12 dioxide are not essential.

13 And finally, really the use of

14 synthetic carbon dioxide which is not captured

15 as opposed to using carbon dioxide produced by

16 animals in the system contributes to, like

17 Tracy was generally suggesting, to the problem

18 of global climate change, environmental

19 questions.

20 So I just think that those points

21 stand on their own in terms of that this

22 listing isn't merited in my opinion. Thank
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1 you.

2 CHAIR STONE: Tracy?

3 MEMBER FAVRE: I did only want to

4 add that CO2 is actually currently approved

5 for use in other international organic

6 aquaculture systems and does seem to be fairly

7 innocuous as it's described in those

8 international systems.

9 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. This is

11 a subject I know quite a bit about the sources

12 of CO2 because I did write the petition in

13 Handling that is referred to extensively in

14 the Aquaculture Working Group petition.

15 There are two non-synthetic

16 sources mined from the ground, in deposits

17 underground, and the byproduct of ethanol

18 production which is a naturally occurring

19 biological process of which CO2 is the residue

20 after the ethanol is produced. There are also

21 synthetic sources from industry and

22 manufacturing.
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1 I submit that by recapturing the

2 sources that would ordinarily come out of a

3 smokestack all you're doing -- that has less

4 environmental impact than the non-synthetic

5 sources that you're mining from the ground and

6 then putting the CO2 in the air because all

7 you're doing recirculating the first, the

8 synthetic, whereas the mined you're putting it

9 in the air originally. So, I just wanted to

10 make that point clear.

11 You cannot -- if you're a small

12 consumer of carbon dioxide, and by that I mean

13 if you're buying less than a railcar full you

14 cannot find out usually where your source is

15 coming from. And so producers do not have the

16 luxury of choosing synthetic or non-synthetic.

17 That being said, I have not been

18 at all convinced on the need for this material

19 in algae production based on both written

20 public comment from Oregon Tilth and from

21 things that Rahm said in his oral comment and

22 also when he was on the conference call.
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1 And I think that if it would be

2 approved a more restrictive annotation than

3 this would be needed because both of them

4 seemed to imply that, especially Rahm, that it

5 was only needed in the very early stages of

6 growth on algae in tanks and in multitrophic

7 systems.

8 But I might have that wrong

9 because it wasn't really explored in the

10 checklist. And we did not get a TR on that.

11 And so the specific uses of what situations

12 it's used in would lead to being able to make

13 a better decision.

14 Because if it's not really needed

15 in everything, you know, why approve it for

16 everything. And you know, Tilth's testimony

17 said they didn't allow it because they found

18 that all the systems they certify in it's not

19 necessary.

20 And so I would like to have a

21 little more input on that from our

22 stakeholders before I really would feel
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1 comfortable voting for this material.

2 CHAIR STONE: Colehour?

3 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Thank

4 you, Zea. I just want to add it's not exactly

5 clarification so I guess it's repetition, but

6 in the checklist category 2 question, number

7 8, are there alternative substances.

8 You know, the last sentence reads,

9 and if you look at the petition it's going to

10 read, "When aquatic plant production is paired

11 with animal production the requirement for

12 additional CO2 is reduced."

13 So I think it goes back to what

14 Zea was just talking about is the system and

15 how it's balanced and what is being

16 incorporated. And what Francis was talking

17 about, a multitrophic.

18 So I think that there's a lot of

19 issues here even within where the thing is

20 currently at in terms of need. Thank you.

21 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. We
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1 worked on this in the Crops Subcommittee as

2 you know. I think others have mentioned this.

3 So I'd like to just provide some orientation

4 on the issues Zea raised related to production

5 of CO2.

6 But before getting to that I'd

7 like to just quickly read the comment into the

8 record from Oregon Tilth which sort of

9 captures my view on this.

10 The Environmental Protection

11 Agency has deemed CO2 to be a regulated air

12 pollutant and greenhouse gas. That's 2014.

13 This proposed allowance, that is

14 the proposal coming out of the Livestock

15 Subcommittee for CO2 in crop aquaculture would

16 open up the doors to regular, not intermittent

17 use of synthetic CO2 in organic production.

18 Although the petition is

19 optimistic that recycled CO2 could be used the

20 primary sources of recycled CO2 are from

21 industrial waste, flue gas, et cetera, would

22 contain other contaminants including nitrous
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1 oxides and sulfurous oxides.

2 For pure CO2 to be used in aquatic

3 plant production it is probable that new

4 synthetic CO2 would need to be produced which

5 would ultimately add additional greenhouse gas

6 into the environment.

7 Oregon Tilth believes that the

8 listing motion "for use in contained systems

9 such as tanks and ponds" is not sufficient to

10 prevent the eventual release of new CO2 into

11 the atmosphere.

12 So this raises the larger, bigger

13 picture issue. And I guess you could argue

14 it's philosophical. I think others would

15 argue it's legal, a legal question as to the

16 checklist and questions surrounding the

17 origins of materials, where they come from.

18 Regardless of whether we are

19 taking a recycled material from an otherwise

20 polluting industrial process I think at the

21 end of the day organic has to provide us a

22 model for not being reliant on polluting
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1 industrial practices.

2 I think that's inherent in the

3 statute, it's the goal of the organic system.

4 We are more than what we put in our mouths.

5 We are, as an organic system, as we all know,

6 really focused on how we protect the Earth,

7 the land, the management systems that we all

8 are trying to improve on a day-to-day basis.

9 So this would be a step backwards

10 in terms of creating a system, calling it

11 organic and being reliant on an industrial

12 waste product that we know to be hazardous and

13 deemed by EPA to be a pollutant greenhouse

14 gas.

15 I appreciate the perspective that

16 recycling is good in a society otherwise

17 dependent on these industrial practices.

18 However, I think what we're trying to do

19 through organic and what the law initiates is

20 a new view of how we create systems that are

21 not reliant on those practices and show that

22 these industrial practices can be eliminated
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1 because clearly organic is not dependent on

2 them.

3 So, I know there are a lot of

4 complex issues in there but I think we have --

5 at some point may want to have that discussion

6 in more depth.

7 The other issue that I still don't

8 have complete clarity on is the nutrient value

9 of this material, and whether in fact -- I

10 thought I heard yesterday from Rahm that this

11 does have nutrient value.

12 And of course if this is a

13 synthetic and we're not very careful that we

14 are evaluating that aspect. In fact, the

15 original petition mentioned the nutrient value

16 of CO2. We went back to the petitioner and

17 the petitioner corrected that. And so that

18 was taken out of the petition.

19 But I think if in fact that is

20 even a secondary effect of this reliance then

21 we have to know that and evaluate it in the

22 context of the review. Thank you.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jay.

2 John?

3 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: So I hate to

4 disagree with my former employer at Oregon

5 Tilth but there's -- there are several

6 companies not in this room, but who'd find a

7 whole bunch of food-grade carbon dioxide

8 readily available that does not have any of

9 the byproducts that would be problematic. So

10 I'm hard-pressed to believe that the

11 relatively minor use that this -- at issue

12 here would impact the larger multinational

13 corporations that carbonated beverages on a

14 regular basis that don't have those pollutants

15 in them.

16 So I'm puzzled by that. I would

17 like to know more about that, the details of

18 that. But, just the carbonated beverage

19 industry alone tells me there's plenty of

20 toxin-free CO2 available.

21 So that aside, I don't want to

22 forget that -- I don't know many farmers that
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1 grow or raise anything that use things they

2 don't really have to. So I wanted to remind

3 us that as we talk about this I don't think --

4 I don't think every operator is going to start

5 using this just because it's on the list.

6 They'll only use it if they need it.

7 And that's true I think for a lot

8 of inputs. That certainly was true for me

9 when I was growing vegetables.

10 Even though the National List has

11 several things on it never used any of them

12 unless I absolutely had to just from cost. So

13 I'd hate to have the dialogue keep going

14 without reminding ourselves that just because

15 it's on the list doesn't mean everyone is

16 going to run out and use it.

17 The wisdom of growers is very,

18 very deep and their pockets are not. So they

19 will tend not to use things unless they have

20 to. I just wanted to remind us of that.

21 CHAIR STONE: Nick?

22 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, just a
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1 suggestion for the committee. The statement

2 about carbon dioxide is used internationally

3 is based on a 2006 report and did not cover as

4 is indicated here aquaculture standards in the

5 international community.

6 So if you have the information to

7 update that standard and whether or not the

8 sources are synthetic or natural. Just to

9 see. You know, it's been almost 10 years.

10 Let's see, maybe they figured this one out.

11 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

12 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. John, I

13 think -- again, I don't want to get off, and

14 we can have a side conversation on this, but

15 I think it's important when we talk about

16 production practices to -- and this is

17 category 1, question 2, is there environmental

18 contamination during manufacture, use, misuse,

19 or disposal. And it's in that context of

20 manufacture that we're talking about the

21 release of greenhouse gases and those sorts of

22 things.
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1 So, I appreciate that, you know,

2 organic is a minor player in virtually all

3 these discussions of contamination. But our

4 hope long-term is that organic becomes the

5 major mainstream player.

6 And if we don't have a good

7 foundation in having answered these questions

8 early on about the underlying source material

9 in their manufacturing processes we will have

10 built organic on a foundation that we didn't

11 intend to build on which is a foundation of

12 industrial practices that are polluting and

13 ones that we would like to see discontinued,

14 ones that many of our friends in the

15 environmental community working on green

16 chemistry, alternative practices just as we

17 are here are seeking to eliminate.

18 So let's early on when we approve

19 a system like this, something new, that we

20 start with a sound foundation and answer all

21 these questions really thoroughly.

22 Look at all the words in the
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1 question, not just pick one. Don't pick

2 "use." Don't pick "disposal." Don't pick

3 "misuse." Don't just simply pick

4 "manufacture." Look at all the questions and

5 answer those questions to the best of our

6 ability so that we can go out to the community

7 and say we've created this new system here

8 that we feel to the best of our ability is

9 truly compatible with organic principles and

10 core values.

11 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jay.

12 Francis?

13 MEMBER THICKE: Yes, I'd like to

14 point to something too that Oregon Tilth said.

15 In the case that the CO2 emissions

16 from the fish are not enough to keep the pH

17 right. There are other natural pH adjustments

18 like lactic acid and vinegar and oyster

19 shells. So that's reassuring that they're

20 looking at that.

21 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Madam Chair,

22 when you get your notes squared away, next up.
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1 Do you need another pen or anything over

2 there?

3 MEMBER FAVRE: I'm going to start

4 pricking my finger and writing it in blood.

5 Okay.

6 (Laughter)

7 MEMBER FAVRE: Sorry, TMI? Okay.

8 Next on the agenda is aquaculture chlorine for

9 aquatic plants petitioned. Lisa?

10 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The

11 petition for chlorine for aquatic plant use

12 was received on April 19, 2012. It requests

13 the inclusion of chlorine materials to the

14 National List for use in aquatic plant

15 production.

16 As mentioned earlier there is no

17 new technical report for chlorine for

18 aquaculture use. But there were previous

19 reports available from previous review for

20 both crops and livestock and handling uses.

21 And chlorine materials are currently listed on

22 the National List at 205.601, 205.603 and
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1 205.605. Thanks.

2 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Lisa.

3 Joe, you're the lead on this.

4 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you, Tracy.

5 I don't know that there's a lot to say here

6 that we didn't talk about when we discussed

7 the aquatic animal use of this material this

8 morning.

9 There is clearly a lot of work to

10 do on the checklist for both uses of the

11 material. And I think we can do a lot of work

12 to accommodate the concerns that were brought

13 up this morning and in the minority opinion on

14 both of them.

15 I think we as a committee have a

16 chance to work collaboratively with both the

17 minority and the majority groups on both uses

18 of this material and come up with something a

19 little more detailed and I think a little more

20 robust.

21 There's also the question of

22 culture water which we talked about a little
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1 bit this morning, both philosophically and in

2 understanding the mechanics of exactly how

3 that use works, what it looks like, how we

4 visualize it and understand it.

5 It's a good illustration of I

6 think where a practice standard would really

7 come in handy and I think help a lot of people

8 on this committee feel better about the

9 material. So again, you know, I think that

10 does confirm our overall approach to all of

11 these aquaculture materials.

12 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

13 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you for

14 that, Joe. I look forward to working with you

15 guys on that.

16 And for anyone reading this

17 transcript in the year 2020 please refer back

18 to the discussion on livestock animal

19 aquaculture because I don't think we need to

20 repeat the discussion we had this morning as

21 it relates to crop aquaculture. Thank you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Tracy?
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1 MEMBER FAVRE: I would like to

2 just say to Jay bless your heart. Thank you

3 for that.

4 (Laughter)

5 CHAIR STONE: Great. Thank you

6 all. Very good. Tracy, you didn't even have

7 to take any notes. Very nice.

8 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay. Well,

9 actually I did. You missed it. Thank you.

10 Next on the agenda is a proposal

11 petitioned aquaculture lignin sulfonate for

12 aquatic plants. Jean is the lead on that.

13 Lisa?

14 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The

15 petition for lignin sulfonate for aquatic

16 plant production was submitted on June 27,

17 2012 by the Aquaculture Working Group.

18 It requests the inclusion of

19 lignin sulfonate as a chelating agent for

20 aquatic plant production. In support of its

21 review there was not a new technical report

22 but there was a previous technical evaluation
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1 report available for lignin sulfonate from

2 2011 to assist in the subcommittee's

3 deliberations.

4 One other point on lignin

5 sulfonate. There were previously two

6 petitions for lignin sulfonate, one for

7 aquatic plants and one for aquatic animals.

8 The petition for lignin sulfonate for aquatic

9 animals which was as a feed binder was

10 withdrawn by the petitioner last August.

11 Thanks.

12 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes, go ahead.

13 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Okay, so

14 lignin sulfonate, interesting material. The

15 proposed recommendation for this would be to

16 use it only for a chelating agent for

17 micronutrient uptake.

18 Lignin sulfonate presently is used

19 in organic soil-based crop production as a

20 plant or soil amendment, as a chelating agent

21 and as a dust suppressant and also as a

22 floating agent in post harvest handling at
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1 205.601.

2 So the chelating agents are water

3 soluble compounds which is an important aspect

4 to keep in mind since we're dealing with

5 aquatic systems. And they have the ability to

6 bind metal nutrients.

7 And what they do is they allow --

8 the chelate molecule facilitates cell uptake

9 of the metal nutrients which are needed by the

10 plants in this case.

11 Now, lignin sulfonate is not my

12 favorite material. It's a byproduct of the

13 wood and pulping industry, a derivative of

14 lignin, and it can be made by a number of

15 different processes: sulfite chemical pulping,

16 acidic sulfite process and the craft pulping

17 process.

18 And there has in the past been

19 some serious concern about the mechanisms

20 whereby the lignin sulfonate is derived by

21 then is utilized subsequently in agriculture.

22 Some of those issues have been laid to rest
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1 but again the TR does in fact raise some of

2 these and the references associated with it

3 get into quite a reasonable amount of detail.

4 One of the problems with lignin

5 sulfonate salts, that they're soluble in

6 water, and these are water plants that we're

7 looking at. Due to the high biological demand

8 during breakdown the lignin sulfonates will

9 remove dissolved oxygen from waters,

10 decreasing pH and can have a range of impacts

11 including increasing metal uptake through

12 bioaccumulation and also to modify

13 considerably -- the potential is there to

14 modify considerably the benthic environment.

15 It is with those things in mind

16 that when the lignin sulfonate, the other

17 petition which was for use as a fish binder,

18 fish feed binder, sorry, came to our

19 subcommittee we spent considerable time

20 working on that, looking at it within the

21 context of using the regulations that were --

22 recommendations that were being proposed by
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1 the NOSB for aquatic aquaculture we in our

2 subcommittee had come up with a decision and

3 voted to say no to lignin sulfonate being used

4 as a fish feed binder because of the impact on

5 the aquatic environment, the benthic

6 ecosystem, et cetera.

7 And we were proposing that that

8 was going to go forward to the full Board.

9 However, the petitioner withdrew that.

10 I mention that because it is

11 important that we then looked at the use of

12 the lignin sulfonate within the proposed

13 systems as far as we could tell that were

14 going to be used.

15 We made some assumptions based on

16 the petition and our understanding of what was

17 going to be proposed from the NOSB

18 recommendations on aquaculture that the plants

19 would be in glass flasks such as we saw, those

20 of us that went to the -- on the NOSB when we

21 went to -- was it Portland? We went and

22 looked at the university and we went out and
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1 looked at shellfish production.

2 I remember Calvin and Wendy and I

3 went and looked at how they were producing

4 these small algae in glass flasks, in

5 containers, in tanks and in ponds. And they

6 were not being produced in open water.

7 So for these reasons it appears

8 absent the detail of the new regulations, and

9 everything to do with aquaculture depends on

10 the detail in those regulations that are

11 upcoming, we made the assumption that the

12 environmental impact of using the lignin

13 sulfonate in these kinds of systems could be

14 expected to be minimal or negligible.

15 Based on those assumptions we

16 voted, the listing motion, we voted to approve

17 the lignin sulfonate for a chelating agent.

18 There were 6 yes, 1 no and abstentions and

19 recusals were zero.

20 Again, the public comments that

21 we've talked about earlier were non-specific

22 to lignin sulfonate, only referred basically
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1 to the systems as a whole.

2 So, we're recommending approval.

3 It would be interesting to be able to see what

4 these -- see what our discussion would look

5 like once we've received the final regulations

6 as to how exactly they're going to be used.

7 CHAIR STONE: Okay, Nick?

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, Jean, I was

9 interested in the assumption. But it was not

10 necessary to place that assumption as an

11 annotation then you didn't feel on the

12 approval of lignin sulfonate?

13 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

14 MEMBER RICHARDSON: We weren't

15 getting into annotations. No.

16 CHAIR STONE: Nick. Oh, you're

17 good? Other thoughts? Jay?

18 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, you know,

19 this obviously, as you say, Jean, this was

20 wrapped up in the larger question of the

21 system that ultimately is used. And then the

22 question of essentiality comes up as well.
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1 I guess my view of this is similar

2 to the CO2. As you pointed out, the source of

3 this material is problematic. And so you

4 know, again, that's going to have to be

5 balanced with the essentiality concerns given

6 the different systems.

7 And I might put a little more

8 weight than others on the manufacturing

9 process and origins of the material. But

10 ultimately I hope that we can have that

11 discussion, balancing of the essentiality with

12 the adverse impacts.

13 CHAIR STONE: Colehour?

14 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes, I think what

15 Jay just said was related to what I wanted to

16 say. And I'll just add maybe the fact that we

17 really are being asked to decide about not the

18 essentiality of those micronutrients for the

19 plants, but the essentiality of synthetic

20 micronutrients and the lignin sulfonate is

21 used to chelate those synthetic

22 micronutrients. And that's I think the
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1 question really is essentiality of that means

2 to achieve.

3 CHAIR STONE: Jean.

4 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I think those,

5 Jay and Colehour, are both very valid points.

6 I know that when we looked at the

7 use of the lignin sulfonate as a feed binder

8 for fish feed we did note in terms of

9 essentiality that in fact there were a number

10 of other materials that could be used to

11 replace that which was one of the essentiality

12 issues that we looked at for that.

13 We weren't able to find what might

14 be used for -- as a chelating agent other than

15 the lignin sulfonate. There really wasn't

16 enough information on that. And it would be

17 good to have it. Because quite frankly it

18 would be very difficult for me to vote seeing

19 more lignin sulfonate getting into aquatic

20 ecosystems of any kind.

21 So unless there's really clear

22 evidence as we re-review these and look at it
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1 within the system hopefully they will find

2 some other material that could be more

3 appropriate. Because I would have a hard time

4 putting more, or any of this really into an

5 aquatic ecosystem if any of it's getting into

6 an outside of the tank situation.

7 CHAIR STONE: Francis?

8 MEMBER THICKE: Oregon Tilth made

9 a good comment related to this lignin

10 sulfonate and micronutrients.

11 They said if all micronutrient

12 forms including synthetically chelated ones

13 are allowed then the petition allowance for

14 lignin sulfonate as a synthetic chelate

15 becomes irrelevant.

16 It's an interesting concept. If

17 you're going to put them in there anyway we

18 don't really need the lignin sulfonate. Not

19 that I'm in favor necessarily of putting them

20 in there anyway.

21 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Jean, I don't
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1 know if you got into the detail of the natural

2 sources of micronutrients that could be added

3 when the subcommittee discussed essentiality.

4 But obviously that's a key element in all our

5 discussions.

6 Do you recall if there was any

7 discussion of natural sources of

8 micronutrients?

9 CHAIR STONE: Jean.

10 MEMBER RICHARDSON: That would be

11 a question to the micronutrient lead person.

12 I mean this one, right now we're just talking

13 about the lignin sulfonate.

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Right.

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: However.

17 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Right. Yes,

18 they both have to go together, no, I agree.

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. In any

20 event, I hope that can be done and we can

21 cross-fertilize the information on that issue

22 and see on the question of essentiality.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Great. Very good.

2 Thanks, everyone. Tracy, the last hurrah.

3 MEMBER FAVRE: All right,

4 everybody take a deep breath. I think we're

5 almost there. The end is in sight. That's

6 either the train or the light at the end of

7 the tunnel.

8 Final proposal for aquaculture is

9 a petition for aquaculture vitamins B1, B12

10 and H for aquatic plants as petitioned.

11 Calvin, you're the lead on that.

12 Lisa?

13 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Tracy. The

14 petition for vitamins was submitted on August

15 3, 2012. The petition requests the addition

16 of three specific vitamins, again, B12, B1 and

17 H to the National List for use in aquatic

18 plant production.

19 Of those three petitioned vitamins

20 vitamin B1 is currently individually listed on

21 the National List at 205.601(j)(8) as part of

22 three other vitamins that are already allowed
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1 for use in organic crop production.

2 The subcommittee did not request a

3 new technical report in support of its review.

4 Thanks.

5 MEMBER FAVRE: Calvin?

6 SECRETARY WALKER: I make a motion

7 that we go to lunch right now.

8 (Laughter)

9 SECRETARY WALKER: This will be

10 very brief.

11 The title of this one is "Aquatic

12 Plant Vitamins." And what we are hearing is

13 that maybe a need for a TR. Because this

14 particular material, B1, B12 and H. There was

15 no TR for this particular material for plants

16 use.

17 The Livestock Subcommittee

18 received the petition from the Crop Committee

19 in October of 2013. So we had a very short

20 window to request a TR. And that was one of

21 the concerns for some, there was no TR for

22 this particular use in plants.
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1 And as Dr. Brines mentioned, B1 is

2 already -- these vitamins are already being

3 used in plants.

4 As far as the evaluation criteria,

5 again, as the public had told us how can we

6 evaluate these criteria without a rule, but we

7 did. And we have seen the error of our ways

8 and we're going to go back and hopefully come

9 back with something more meaningful the next

10 time these come up as it relates to impact on

11 human and environment, essentiality and

12 compatibility.

13 The committee as you could see was

14 in support of this particular material, 7 yes,

15 zero no on the classification motion.

16 As it relates to the listing there

17 was an objection by Colehour. And one other

18 objection of the minority committee was in the

19 absence -- in the change in the sunset process

20 there needs to be a time-line for reevaluating

21 these materials. And I'm sure Colehour may

22 mention that but that was one of the concerns
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1 that he had on a lot of these petitions.

2 And again, as Tracy mentioned,

3 there's a large number of commenters and most

4 were against what we had put forward. But we

5 are optimistic that when we come back those

6 numbers will be reversed and more clear.

7 And again, I'm not going to go and

8 read all of the -- I'm just going to read a

9 few different ones.

10 They said when you start naming

11 people and calling names you don't want to

12 leave anybody out so I'm going to pick a few

13 different ones hopefully again for some.

14 But again, when you have the same

15 outstanding group such as OTA and Cornucopia

16 and Food Safety and the rest having issues and

17 all on the same side, that kind of tells you

18 that you need to go back and look at what we

19 have done. And it's very rare that you would

20 have them all on the same side. And if we

21 don't get it right we may not want the program

22 to do that.
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1 And I said that with conflict of

2 interest. Everyone has had some issue with

3 conflict of interest. So we dilly-dallied for

4 some time and then eventually the program had

5 to step in and they've taken over that

6 particular matter based on their authority.

7 Okay, some of the objections of

8 the public which I always find good. I

9 sometimes spend three and four days reading

10 the public comment because I find that you all

11 are very intelligent. You are far smarter

12 than I am. So, I sometimes take three and

13 four days off just to read the comments

14 because you all are very insightful as

15 Chairman Mac had mentioned.

16 Food and Water Watch. Let me pick

17 out one particular one for this one that I

18 didn't read before that I thought that others

19 expressed.

20 So, as you know, NOSB

21 recommendation on fish farming has been

22 extremely controversial, especially the use of
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1 open net pens for fish. Yet there are no

2 standards for organic aquaculture operations.

3 Thus, the use of synthetic

4 materials in organic production is likewise

5 highly controversial. And voting on allowing

6 synthetic materials in organic agriculture

7 before we even know what these operations will

8 look like is not acceptable.

9 And I just underlined that it was

10 from at least 59 states and 10 countries

11 signed the petition.

12 Okay. Moving down here. As it

13 relates to a citizen, again, she had a nice

14 comment from Washington.

15 CHAIR STONE: I thought you were

16 hungry.

17 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

18 (Laughter)

19 SECRETARY WALKER: Okay, I'm here,

20 A. This particular citizen we heard

21 yesterday. I didn't read these two but I kind

22 of highlighted some of the ones. A formal
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1 assessment of risk and impact must be

2 conducted before NOSB proceeds with

3 greenlighting an industry that most consider

4 incompatible with organic principles,

5 especially those important practices that

6 biodiversity, minimize environmental impact,

7 control inputs and allow natural behavior.

8 And C., pollution, pathogens and

9 parasites cannot be confined in a fluid

10 environment.

11 Getting near the end here. Beyond

12 Pesticides, something that -- A. Inputs must

13 be judged in the context of an aquaculture

14 system. And that's even been the sentiment of

15 others that had written in.

16 Almost near the end here. Oregon

17 Tilth annotations for vitamins. Well, they

18 essentially had an issue with the annotation

19 for aquatic plants and animals, that it should

20 be the same as in the -- what we already have.

21 Okay, Maine Organic Farmers and

22 Gardeners Association. I believe that covers
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1 several states. It's an OFPA mandate that

2 producers must provide organically produced

3 animals with toll feed ration -- okay, let me

4 skip that one. We're opposed to giving an

5 organic label to fish that lives or moves in

6 and out of an undesignated area that is not

7 controlled by the producer.

8 So, to make the long and short,

9 the public comment was for, as we have heard

10 yesterday and the day before, was bringing

11 these particular materials back, and maybe for

12 some may even need a TR that we can chisel

13 into some of the things that they had a

14 concern about. That's it.

15 CHAIR STONE: All right.

16 Specifics around the vitamins in aquatic

17 plants? Colehour?

18 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Thank

19 you, Calvin. I just want to add two little

20 notes to that concept of this being brought

21 back to the subcommittee and considered

22 further.
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1 And one is you suggested and I

2 think it's appropriate which is consider

3 annotation by system or definition of what

4 systems are being -- this is being approved

5 for. And I think we should seriously consider

6 that.

7 And I think that the other issue

8 which isn't in my opinion adequately addressed

9 but needs a little more attention is

10 considering whether or not there realistically

11 are natural source alternatives to be looking

12 at or considering regarding deciding whether

13 or not this is essential as petitioned. Thank

14 you.

15 CHAIR STONE: Calvin?

16 SECRETARY WALKER: I'm not sure if

17 I gave that to the committee but that was one

18 of their concerns.

19 I did email one of the

20 manufacturers. Being an animal scientist I'd

21 never heard of vitamins for plants. I've

22 heard of NPK, trace minerals and those things.
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1 But one of the manufacturers of

2 these vitamins did email me back. I didn't

3 let him know I was on the NOSB or anything.

4 But the person that the petitioner referred

5 to, they had the view that the vitamins for

6 plants were not needed if you provide the

7 other essential elements in the system.

8 I'm not sure if I shared that,

9 Madam Chair, with the committee, that

10 particular email from the manufacturer.

11 CHAIR STONE: Okay. That's great.

12 Tracy, you want to do sort of a generic wrap13 up?

14 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes. Thank you,

15 Mr. Chair. We appreciate all of your all's

16 patience today as we've slogged through these

17 materials.

18 As you can see we have a lot of

19 work to do going back and tweaking and

20 refining these. That was really my goal and

21 objective for bringing these materials forward

22 is to have this kind of dialogue to seek the
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1 public comment. I'll reiterate that because

2 that is really important to understand.

3 These are complicated issues. The

4 use of these materials is complicated and we

5 certainly need the input. In this case it

6 sort of takes a village to craft the proposals

7 for this.

8 I would also like to, whoever

9 might be listening to this or reading this in

10 the public record strongly urge that potential

11 producers of organic aquaculture weigh in on

12 the public comments.

13 The public comments are very

14 strongly listened to and influence our

15 deliberations and our discussions.

16 And I personally truly appreciate

17 all the comments we've received. However, I

18 feel as though they're slightly unbalanced

19 right now. We've had a great deal of input

20 from consumers and certifiers and consumer

21 groups, but we've heard very little from the

22 producers themselves except as an aggregate of
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1 the Aquaculture Working Group. So I think it

2 would be useful for us to hear.

3 We've had several remarks made in

4 today's comments about the essentiality of

5 some of these materials. And it's difficult

6 for us to really weigh that without having the

7 expertise.

8 I've heard comments over the last

9 few days about unless you're a farmer you

10 don't get it. Or unless you use XYZ material

11 you don't understand whether it's essential or

12 not.

13 And I think that's particularly

14 true in something like this where these are

15 complicated systems.

16 So with that I think I will say

17 that we are going to wrap up unless there's

18 any other comments from the group. And I

19 appreciate everyone's attention so thank you.

20 CHAIR STONE: Well, I want to

21 personally thank on behalf of the rest of the

22 Board members the subcommittee.
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1 It was awkward. It was new

2 territory. There was a lot of angst. They

3 knew, you all knew as a subcommittee that this

4 was a lot of interest and a lot of concerns

5 around this and appreciated how well you

6 worked through it, and produced something that

7 gave us enough information for the rest of us

8 to sort of weigh in.

9 I appreciate Jay and Colehour and

10 others, those that weren't on the committee

11 but showed interest and joined in the

12 discussion. So, real loud applause for you

13 all for what you did to get us to this point.

14 And now it will be much easier to take that

15 next step.

16 I've got 12:30 essentially so

17 we'll be back here at 1:45 and begin the

18 afternoon. Thank you very much.

19 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

20 went off the record at 12:32 p.m. and went

21 back on the record at 1:51 p.m.)

22 CHAIR STONE: So, if those of you
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1 in the back mind taking your seat we're going

2 to go ahead and ramp back up. I know it's

3 hard to get out and eat and get back in an

4 hour and 15 minutes but we're pretty much on

5 time.

6 We had a great conversation this

7 morning. I appreciate the Board members and

8 their thorough yet succinct conversation over

9 a complicated topic.

10 So if we can continue in that vein

11 this afternoon we can get a lot more work done

12 and be fully prepared with comfort level

13 around all of these different proposals that

14 we're evaluating for tomorrow's ultimate vote.

15 So with no further ado I'll turn

16 the program lead over to Ms. Carmela Beck for

17 the Compliance, Accreditation and

18 Certification Subcommittee conversation.

19 Carmela?

20 MEMBER BECK: Thank you, Mac. So

21 I'd just like to thank the members of the

22 Compliance, Accreditation and Certification
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1 Subcommittee for their collaborative work over

2 the past few months.

3 Today we have three items on the

4 agenda. The first topic is titled "The

5 Request for NOP Clarification and Guidance on

6 Retail Compliance and Certification."

7 The second topic is titled

8 "Towards Clarifying Accredited Certifying

9 Agents' Application of 205.206(e).

10 And the third item will be a brief

11 statement regarding sound and sensible.

12 So I will just go ahead and we'll

13 go in that order. So I'm wondering, Joe, if

14 you could go ahead and get started. Thank

15 you.

16 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you,

17 Carmela. So, we have a proposal on retail

18 certification and certification requirements

19 before us.

20 This is a subject that of course

21 is really close to my heart and I'm really

22 happy to see it on the NOSB agenda once again.
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1 It first appeared on this agenda

2 back in 2007 before I was on the Board and I

3 worked at the time and provided testimony --

4 and worked at the time with Bea James who was

5 our retail representative who put a lot of

6 work and effort and outreach into the

7 recommendation that that Board came up with.

8 It's a proposal that covers a very

9 complex series of issues that affect the

10 entire retail sector. We have retailers of

11 all sizes and types from national chains to

12 single-store independent food stores and co13 ops, farmers markets.

14 Since the rule came out we have

15 seen a proliferation of virtual and online

16 retail outlets that didn't exist in the same

17 form in 2000 and 2002. And really, any place

18 that organic products are made available

19 directly to consumers.

20 We've seen in the news in the last

21 couple of weeks a few large national

22 conventional retailers are working on boosting
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1 their organic offerings. That really does

2 underscore how timely this recommendation is.

3 As the final step in the whole

4 organic supply chain from grower to consumer

5 retailers have a critical role to play in

6 ensuring that organic products are sourced,

7 handled and marketed with care and integrity.

8 However, retailers are one of the

9 only links in the whole supply chain that are

10 exempt from the requirement for certification

11 in the rule.

12 Because of this exemption many

13 retailers lie outside of the certification

14 infrastructure and the supervision that

15 certified retailers and certified handlers and

16 growers all receive from their certifiers.

17 For the store where I work because

18 we are a voluntarily certified retailer we

19 operate under a very strict organic system

20 plan and the continuous supervision and

21 inspection of our certifier.

22 For stores that are not certified
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1 there's constant certifier feedback. And so

2 -- or there isn't rather that feedback. So

3 there are greater opportunities for non4 compliance in that segment of the sector.

5 That's why the main focus of the

6 recommendation we've come up with is not

7 enforcement but rather education. We've asked

8 the program to proactively reach out to

9 retailers, especially uncertified retailers

10 but also all retailers to enhance their

11 understanding of what the rule requires in a

12 retail environment.

13 In addition, we've asked the

14 program to clarify a few parts of the rule

15 that are very confusing or perhaps ambiguous

16 for retailers. This represents a huge

17 opportunity to enhance understanding, improve

18 consumer confidence in the organic label and

19 to ensure integrity within a segment of the

20 organic supply chain that remains largely

21 uncertified.

22 I co-led this initiative with my
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1 colleague Harold Austin. I didn't want to

2 take this on solely because I am the retail

3 representative and wanted to share the fun of

4 this work.

5 Harold, do you have anything you

6 want to add?

7 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks, Joe. You

8 know, I think there was a lot of good public

9 comment coming back in on this from various

10 stakeholders in the organic community.

11 And I think from what we saw,

12 whether it was from the consumer groups, or

13 whether it was from some of the organic trade

14 associations, or some of the retailers

15 themselves, we got some really good feedback.

16 Everybody was very, very positive

17 of this document that we're moving forward.

18 And they liked the fact that it's outreach and

19 education and some very specific points that

20 were listed in there.

21 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you,

22 Harold. Michelle, could we have the
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1 recommendation or the proposal on the screen?

2 I can still just kind of talk through it. I'm

3 not going to read the whole thing verbatim.

4 This was on the agenda for the

5 canceled meeting in Louisville as a discussion

6 document. And the intent of that document had

7 been to ask a series of very specific

8 questions of the organic community to answer

9 to sort of give us a body of data and feedback

10 to take back as a committee and use to fashion

11 a recommendation.

12 That meeting of course didn't

13 happen but it did solicit a fair amount of

14 public comment from retailers, from

15 certifiers, from non-profit groups and others

16 in the community.

17 We felt we had enough to go on

18 there to take that feedback and turn it into

19 the proposal that we're presenting now.

20 As I mentioned before, the NOSB

21 made its last guidance recommendation back in

22 2009 called "Clarification of Marketing for
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1 Voluntary Retail Certification."

2 It covered some of the issues that

3 we have covered in this recommendation but not

4 all of them. Its focus was more on the

5 certified organic retailer, a retailer who's

6 volunteered to become certified, and the kinds

7 of marketing claims that such a retailer could

8 make.

9 And we have included that among

10 the issues that we cover in the current

11 recommendation.

12 The 2009 recommendation also asked

13 the program for clear guidance on the use of

14 the USDA seal in marketing certified

15 retailers; clear guidelines for deli and

16 bakery operations identifying precisely under

17 what considerations certification is required;

18 additional guidance on the accredited

19 certifying agent's role in managing voluntary

20 retailer certification; and clarity on the

21 retailer's role in improving the marketing of

22 voluntary retailer organic certification.
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1 So those are all areas from the

2 2009 recommendation that we've sort of

3 restated in this one.

4 We've also asked for a number of

5 sort of broader pieces of education and

6 outreach from the program that don't

7 specifically apply to certified retailers but

8 to retailers in general.

9 As I mentioned before, certified

10 retailers get a lot of supervision and a lot

11 of oversight from certifiers acting as agents

12 of the National Organic Program. Uncertified

13 retailers do not.

14 And especially with the growth of

15 farmers markets and online marketplaces we'd

16 like to see the program come out with some

17 really targeted outreach and education

18 focusing on those particular types of

19 retailers.

20 There are also a couple of areas

21 of the rule that could bear some clarification

22 as to how they apply to retailers that are
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1 exempt and excluded from the certification

2 requirements.

3 For example, it's not clear the

4 extent to which exempt retailers -- it is

5 clear that they're required to comply with the

6 record-keeping requirements in the rule, but

7 it's not explicit entirely the extent to which

8 retailers need to also comply with the

9 commingling and the contamination provisions

10 in the rule.

11 There's also a question as to

12 whether excluded operations are required to

13 comply with the record-keeping operations in

14 205.101(c).

15 There's also some room for

16 interpretation around what it means to handle

17 or process. The exemption applies to

18 retailers who process or handle -- or process

19 foods that are prepared to be eaten onsite, or

20 are processed onsite rather.

21 One of the questions, for example,

22 that came up on our committee discussion was
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1 a retailer that is processing products onsite

2 but then selling them both onsite and in an

3 online venue. That was one area where we

4 thought we could use clarification.

5 And then as a few of the

6 commenters confirmed and we brought up in our

7 recommendation, you know, when a retailer

8 brings in produce, say, and takes in a case of

9 avocados and re-stacks them on the sales

10 floor, have those been handled under the rule

11 and in that particular situation?

12 Can a retailer still use the USDA

13 seal and the term "certified organic" when

14 they have handled, or re-stacked, or re15 packaged a previously certified product in an

16 uncertified environment?

17 That really summarizes the bulk of

18 our recommendation. The public comment that

19 we received for this meeting was pretty

20 substantial.

21 We did receive a few comments.

22 Bea James, the original sort of shepherd of
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1 this recommendation from 2009 made a series of

2 suggestions asking us to actually add the

3 terms "merchandiser" and certain provisions

4 related to retail operations to the rule

5 itself.

6 The consensus among the committee

7 was that that type of rule change was outside

8 of the scope of this recommendation, but we

9 would like to look specifically at her

10 recommendations and other recommendations for

11 rule change that were received, some from

12 Beyond Pesticides as well. And really look at

13 those as a committee and consider them

14 separately.

15 We got pretty supportive feedback

16 from Crop, especially on the sort of question

17 of the virtual marketplace and online sales

18 and how they fall under the retail exemption.

19 CCOF supported the recommendation

20 and reiterated their concerns about the use of

21 the term "certified organic" and the USDA seal

22 itself on products that have been handled in
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1 retail stores.

2 A few consumers wrote in with

3 supportive comments.

4 The Accredited Certifiers

5 Association provided very detailed comments

6 supporting the recommendation and our request

7 for clarification from the program.

8 The Organic Trade Association

9 actually convened a retailer task force that

10 they put together and based on the work of

11 that task force provided very detailed

12 comments to the committee.

13 And finally, MOSA also provided

14 supportive comments as a certifier.

15 To summarize the subcommittee

16 vote, the subcommittee voted 7 in favor, none

17 not in favor or abstaining on this proposal.

18 And Harold, do you have anything

19 to add about the process or the

20 recommendation?

21 MEMBER AUSTIN: No, I think, you

22 know, we had a lot of discussion on the
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1 subcommittee prior to the fall meeting and

2 then after the fall meeting.

3 And then listening to -- we did,

4 you were right. We got a lot of really good

5 comments in preparation for the council in

6 Louisville. Which just kind of reiterated

7 that this was the right direction to move,

8 especially based off of the growth.

9 And I think you kind of touched on

10 a lot of it, Joe. The organic industry has

11 grown considerably. And the retail

12 certification is a voluntary certification.

13 So, those people that choose to certify

14 understand the rules and they have a good

15 concept of it.

16 But it's that other segment where

17 the growth really lies that the outreach I

18 think is imperative that we help to give the

19 program some very specific guidelines to go

20 out with the outreach and education. And I

21 think this will help do that to ensure the

22 organic integrity that we're all seeking.
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1 And it's no fault of these people,

2 whether it's the increased farmers markets or

3 the other various retail operations. They're

4 just not aware. And so if we can find a

5 vehicle to provide that education, outreach

6 and education for them I think it's a solid

7 move for our industry as a whole.

8 And so I think this will help

9 cover a lot of those if acted upon.

10 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes, well said.

11 And to reiterate too I think that's the most

12 important piece is that uncertified retailers

13 are perhaps -- are one of the only major parts

14 of our whole supply chain that aren't under

15 the continuous supervision of certifiers.

16 And so that doesn't mean that

17 they're, you know, necessarily not in

18 compliance but I think that that area could

19 bear some extra outreach and education and the

20 same support that we all within the certified

21 world get on a daily basis.

22 CHAIR STONE: Others? Miles?
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1 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, this is an area

2 that we have a lot of interest in. We are

3 working on a number of documents around this

4 topic area. We have a fact sheet that we're

5 working on for direct marketing, for organic

6 claims for direct marketing operations, mostly

7 directed towards farmers markets. We hope to

8 have that out within the next few weeks.

9 We're also -- on our quality

10 management list we have a policy memo about

11 community-supported agriculture around

12 retailing and the definition of retail

13 operations.

14 The concept of doing outreach and

15 education, more of that retail operations I

16 think is a good one and we'll certainly try to

17 do more and more of that to explain the

18 requirements for retail operations.

19 And then the open questions that

20 you have, this is where the program and AMS

21 really would -- I mean, we're fine to go back

22 and answer the question, but it's always nice
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1 when the Board can provide us with your

2 recommendation on how to answer those

3 questions and what your preference is in terms

4 of the interpretation of those sections that

5 are identified.

6 Certainly that's our

7 responsibility to provide that clarification

8 but it also is very nice if the Board can

9 provide us with your best advice, your best

10 recommendation about how those various

11 sections should be clarified and interpreted.

12 CHAIR STONE: So, you're asking --

13 so we asked these specific questions and we

14 got good feedback, but how do we incorporate

15 that into the recommendation in a follow-up?

16 I mean, have you thought about how to do that,

17 Joe?

18 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes, Miles, do I

19 -- I think I hear you saying that you'd rather

20 receive this recommendation with the answers

21 to our questions sort of penciled in.

22 MR. MCEVOY: Right.
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1 MEMBER DICKSON: Okay. That's

2 good feedback.

3 CHAIR STONE: Yes, that's kind of

4 what I was sitting here thinking too. That's

5 very good for the Board to have that

6 opportunity to assimilate everything from the

7 community on behalf.

8 One specific question that has

9 always interested me are the green-washing of

10 the label. Like the markets where they may

11 certify the pastures but not the livestock.

12 And they have an organic seal and talk about

13 being certified organic but it's not the

14 product.

15 Those sort of gray areas are

16 really tough. So if we could spend a little

17 more time with it we might could help the

18 program in identifying some of that type of

19 thing.

20 MEMBER DICKSON: Miles, you

21 mentioned the program has a few pieces of

22 guidance or education forthcoming. Do any of
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1 those answer parts of these questions already?

2 MR. MCEVOY: We'd have to take a

3 look at that. The fact sheet for direct

4 market operations, no. The CSA policy may

5 address some of those things.

6 But I think what we could do --

7 because that's further along. It has a lot

8 further along the python to go before it gets

9 out. It's early enough probably in that

10 process that these particular questions could

11 go into the mouth of the python and possibly

12 come out the other end.

13 (Laughter)

14 MEMBER DICKSON: I guess what I'm

15 asking is should we feed them to the python at

16 this meeting? Like, would you rather that the

17 python get fed these questions now or in the

18 fall with answers filled in?

19 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, you can -- we

20 can take the questions now. Yes, absolutely.

21 It will help our process. If we get the

22 questions now then we know that those are
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1 important questions to answer and we have our

2 staff and our legal review try to answer those

3 questions.

4 And if we have some questions as

5 we try to answer your questions we'll come

6 back to the Board with further questions.

7 How's that sound?

8 MEMBER DICKSON: That sounds fun.

9 CHAIR STONE: That python's

10 wrapping around something here, but I'm not

11 sure.

12 (Laughter)

13 CHAIR STONE: So that also means a

14 follow-up in the fall. But get them started

15 and get that. Great.

16 Other comments? Jay, you had your

17 hand up a minute ago. Anybody else? Sounds

18 like collaboration to me.

19 Okay, great, Joe. Thank you for

20 bringing that to our attention with your

21 expertise. And Harold, thanks for your

22 leadership on that as well. Carmela?
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1 MEMBER BECK: Yes, so can I just

2 get clarification? So, will we be moving this

3 document forward for a full Board vote and

4 then issue another document in the fall?

5 CHAIR STONE: Yes, ma'am.

6 MEMBER BECK: Great. So, it

7 sounds like we can move this to a full Board

8 vote at this point. Okay.

9 CHAIR STONE: Very good.

10 MEMBER BECK: All right. So, I'll

11 go ahead and make the motion. So, the motion

12 is to accept the request for NOP clarification

13 and guidance on retail compliance and

14 certification proposal. Can I get a second?

15 MEMBER AUSTIN: Second that.

16 MEMBER BECK: Thank you, Harold.

17 CHAIR STONE: So, we have a motion

18 and a second. We're going to move this one on

19 through thinking that tomorrow might be full

20 and this is pretty straightforward.

21 So, we'll begin -- we don't have

22 an order yet. So moving from clockwise. So
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1 we'll start with Colehour on this vote.

2 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Aye.

3 MEMBER TAYLOR: Aye.

4 MEMBER FELDMAN: Aye.

5 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

6 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

7 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

8 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

9 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

10 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

11 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

13 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

14 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

15 CHAIR STONE: Chair votes yes and

16 one absent. Thank you, Carmela.

17 Okay, next up?

18 MEMBER BECK: All right. John,

19 would you mind?

20 CHAIR STONE: So I've got 14 yeses

21 and 1 absent. Thank you. Motion passes.

22 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes, Carmela,
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1 I'd be more than happy to do that. Calvin,

2 I'm starting to appreciate the chaos of vote3 counting and doing your other work here. Yes,

4 hat's off to you. You did it great last time.

5 In front of us now we have a

6 proposal to move a document forward to the NOP

7 toward clarifying accredited certifying

8 agents' application of Section 205.206(e).

9 This was a document that was

10 discussed in the main for presentation at the

11 fall 2013 meeting. Of course with the

12 shutdown not voted on or discussed at that

13 time.

14 We discussed it a bit this winter

15 and in the spring brought it forward unchanged

16 as noted on the version that was posted. We

17 voted on that again February 11, 2014 to move

18 it forward as a proposal. It was unchanged

19 since last fall.

20 There were no revisions to content

21 and we opted to move this forward as a

22 proposal.
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1 Now, with all this discussion of

2 the python we may need to revisit, have a

3 similar conversation as we just had with

4 retail. But we'll cover that I think at the

5 end. I just wanted to say python because

6 everyone else has done it.

7 The intent of this document was to

8 provide a means of asking the certification

9 community some questions about their views on

10 the application of 205.206(e).

11 It was also intended to highlight

12 kind of the cascading approach to -- that

13 organic producers are very familiar with in

14 order to manage pests, weed, disease issues.

15 And very importantly, also

16 reminding all of the stakeholders, community,

17 Board, everyone in between that our primary

18 function of reviewing and discussing

19 substances on the National List, while we

20 always perform that with respect to the

21 criteria in 205.600, that's where most of our

22 deliberations are, we also need to do that in
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1 the context and with respect to and for the

2 requirements of 205.206.

3 There were several good

4 substantive public comments including Beyond

5 Pesticides, OTA, NOC. There was also an

6 individual comment generally supportive of the

7 direction of the proposal.

8 Three of them had some kind of

9 modifications. I believe it was the NOC

10 recommendation were quite thorough on

11 suggesting where it might go farther, some of

12 the questions might go farther or re-framing

13 of the questions. That was very helpful.

14 There was also a desire in the

15 comments to bring kind of overarching

16 principles of organic production and handling,

17 that document the Board passed several years

18 ago, to bear on the deliberations.

19 And I don't know about which is

20 the cart and which is the horse, which is the

21 dog, which is the tail here, but I think that

22 those principles are -- have a reflection in
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1 this codification of basically IPM.

2 And to my knowledge it's the only

3 federally mandated IPM program. And even

4 though it's not called that here that's really

5 what it is.

6 For me that's a very proud moment

7 for the organic community. Because I don't

8 think you find that requirement anywhere else

9 in federal regulation.

10 Another commenter had some

11 confusion about the structure of the proposal.

12 I understand that because the proposal does

13 have some kind of just discussion document

14 tendencies. That's because it was generated

15 as a discussion document. In the course of

16 the deliberations recognized that we could put

17 that forward.

18 It achieved the intent that we had

19 talked about so there's no reason not to put

20 it forward as a proposal, mostly as an

21 advisory to the program and a way to highlight

22 the issues that we felt were important.
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1 We had some real articulate spoken

2 comment here from I think it was Mr. Moore or

3 Ms. Randolph. That's on the record already.

4 It was very well received. I think timely

5 also.

6 Particularly I was struck by Mr.

7 Moore's recognition that this is an

8 opportunity. I liked his phrasing, a call to

9 action to address this core tenet and raise

10 the profile of it.

11 I think consumers want that. I

12 think they want to know that. And several of

13 the comments highlighted the consumers' desire

14 to want to know the steps that are taken in

15 the production of their organic food. I agree

16 with that completely.

17 My observation in the last four

18 years of a lot of subcommittee discussions

19 was, and I've mentioned this in subcommittee

20 meetings frequently and at public meetings in

21 the past also that we often forget there is

22 this context.
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1 And this was also an opportunity

2 to remind ourselves that all the criteria, the

3 technical criteria that we spend most of our

4 time on, that's the core. I get that. But I

5 don't want to forget what's operating in the

6 background either. And this 206 is part of

7 that background.

8 That's about it in summary. The

9 subcommittee voted 7 to zero with 1 absent to

10 move it forward as a recognition of these

11 important items to the NOP.

12 And now, with respect to the

13 python I don't know where we want to -- if we

14 want to include -- whether we want to vote on

15 this as is now but create another document

16 that includes more of the public comment that

17 we received in the fall like the previous

18 proposal. We can do that. I would leave that

19 up to Madam Chair.

20 MEMBER BECK: Just for

21 clarification I think when we published this

22 it accidentally had the word "proposal" on it
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1 and it was supposed to be a discussion

2 document.

3 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Other members

4 of the CACS? Is that everyone's recollection?

5 Excellent. Then everything I just said about

6 that, change that. That was not my

7 recollection but I'm happy to be wrong on

8 that.

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: Is that a

10 substantive change?

11 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I hope not.

12 In that event then, heck, we can move it

13 forward as a discussion document at this time.

14 We would then kind of as a matter of protocol

15 include all the public comments, re-wrap that

16 and put that forward as a proposal in the

17 fall.

18 Miles?

19 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, I'm glad it's a

20 discussion document because my question was

21 going to be what are we supposed to do with

22 this. Like what your expectation was.
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1 So if you have -- yes. Because it

2 should be a recommendation or advice for us to

3 do something. Otherwise it's like, okay,

4 that's nice. So, great. It looks like a

5 great discussion document. Thanks for your

6 really great work on this.

7 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Happy to make

8 this a discussion document. That would make

9 it a very natural progression to incorporate

10 all of the public comments received, perhaps

11 add some of the questions or modify them and

12 then ask you to put those forward in a more

13 formal way in the fall meeting. Excellent.

14 CHAIR STONE: Great. Is there any

15 other input for the committee? Nick?

16 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, I have

17 basically three points.

18 The first is is there -- what was

19 your feeling as the extent to which this is a

20 major gap or problem or an issue.

21 The second point is did you give

22 any thought to how this might impact the
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1 paperwork burden on the farmer and tying that

2 into sound and sensible.

3 And then the third point is is

4 this an organic or a wild-caught python?

5 Because then I want to know what we're feeding

6 it.

7 MR. MCEVOY: Is that question for

8 me?

9 MEMBER MARAVELL: It was simply

10 for consideration as these issues are

11 developed. If somebody wants to respond

12 that's fine.

13 MR. MCEVOY: Okay, yes. Yes,

14 well, this is something that is done by

15 certifiers all the time. This is that part of

16 the certification process that's very

17 thoroughly reviewed for each production

18 operation. It's very much incorporated into

19 the requirements under the organic system

20 plans.

21 So when producers write their

22 organic system plans they're demonstrating --
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1 if they are using any substances they have to

2 demonstrate how they comply with this

3 progressive pest control practices. They can

4 only use pest control practices if they have

5 these other -- if they have the other

6 practices in place. So there's the cultural

7 practices, resistant varieties, biological

8 control, all those things have to be utilized

9 before they can use those substances for pest

10 control.

11 So a very standard practice in the

12 certification process. It's something that we

13 look at very thoroughly when we do our

14 accreditation audits to ensure that certifiers

15 are adequately reviewing this both when they

16 review the organic system plan and when

17 they're onsite conducting the inspections,

18 that yes, they check all those substances to

19 make sure that they comply with the standards.

20 But they're also checking to see

21 that there's compliance with the provisions of

22 205.206. A lot of focus on this area. It's
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1 really some of the most fascinating parts of

2 the inspection when you're out there doing the

3 inspections is talking about the whole

4 integrated system of the crops, and the

5 plants, and the pest control systems, and how

6 they all interrelate, and how they sometimes

7 need to use substances to control certain

8 pests.

9 But for the most part on an

10 organic system most pests, insects, disease,

11 weeds are controlled by an integrated system

12 without inputs.

13 Impact on farmers/handlers. There

14 is an impact. There's a lot of explanation of

15 really what farmers are doing, especially

16 organic farmers are doing. They have to

17 translate that from what they just normally do

18 to a paperwork format.

19 So they've got to translate it

20 from their mind and put it on paper. For some

21 farmers that's quite a struggle because that's

22 not what they're -- they're farmers. They're
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1 not in the business of writing down -- writing

2 books, I guess.

3 But they do it. There is that

4 requirement, that it is documented and it's

5 reviewed, and it's also documented and

6 reviewed by the inspector and the

7 certification agency.

8 So there's -- there's nothing new

9 here. This is just part of the system that's

10 been set up for many, many years.

11 And is it organic or wild-caught?

12 Hmm. I think it's organic. I don't think

13 it's wild-caught. Yes, we're very cultured in

14 the South building. I don't think there's any

15 wild buildings in the South building. Some

16 rats down in the basement.

17 CHAIR STONE: Okay, Nick? Follow18 up?

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. My point

20 was exactly what you just stated, Miles, which

21 is I think we're already doing this. My

22 certifier does that to me every OSP. So I was
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1 just wondering was I missing something here

2 that perhaps we're not doing adequately. That

3 was really the nature of my question. And if

4 we're not doing adequately will that then

5 result in yet additional paperwork burden.

6 I'm just sort of trying to respond as a

7 farmer.

8 CHAIR STONE: John?

9 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: So that did

10 come up in the discussion. I remember

11 conversations primarily around the folks that

12 have been doing inspections in the past,

13 myself, Jean, others, that there is some

14 variability in how across those 80-some odd

15 certifiers.

16 My observation has been in the

17 United States the larger certifiers are pretty

18 consistent about it, the larger certifiers by

19 number. And that by definition would mean the

20 amount of variability is pretty slim.

21 I have noted more variability in

22 foreign certifiers, particularly South
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1 America. Some of that may be a translation

2 thing, I don't know. But when I look at

3 inspection reports or OSPs from South American

4 suppliers, there's some nuances there that I

5 think -- there's some variability.

6 I have every assurance that as

7 ACAs they're doing that work. And I think

8 that's what Miles was talking about.

9 But to what degree they focus on

10 that, I think there's some variability there.

11 And in the context of us focusing

12 our primary mission on thinking about

13 materials and inputs for the National List the

14 application of that in the field is where that

15 rubber hits the road. And so any variability

16 there is, you know, we should be talking

17 about.

18 I don't think it's widespread but

19 it's there. It's a minor -- it's not low20 hanging fruit. We've picked all that. This

21 is stuff higher up in the trees that needs

22 just a little, a tweaking, perhaps.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Jennifer.

2 MEMBER TAYLOR: Thank you. I was

3 just wondering is there a reason why (f)

4 wasn't included?

5 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Can you read

6 (f) to me?

7 MEMBER TAYLOR: "The producer must

8 not use lumber treated with arsenic or other

9 prohibited materials for new installations or

10 replacement purposes in contact with soil or

11 livestock."

12 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes, because

13 that didn't refer to this cascading sequential

14 order of things. That (e), (e) essentially

15 says thou shalt do (a), (b), (c), (d) before

16 you try -- well, before you get to synthetics

17 on the National List you've got to try these

18 other cultural, physical, mechanical,

19 biological practices before you get to

20 synthetic materials. That was really the meat

21 of it, that cascading effect is what we were

22 focused on.
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1 And since (f) was focused on a

2 single use of a material that was not

3 dependent at least in (e) and above.

4 MEMBER TAYLOR: It does impact the

5 other items though, don't you think?

6 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: How so?

7 MEMBER TAYLOR: Well, it doesn't

8 impact the -- maybe the nutrient content

9 management practice. You've got crop

10 rotation, sanitation measures, cultural

11 practices. Then it says don't use arsenic.

12 Just a minute, I lost it.

13 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: That was not

14 part of the discussion amongst the

15 subcommittee.

16 MEMBER TAYLOR: That's what I was

17 asking. Okay.

18 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Because we

19 were focused on the vast majority I think of

20 crop pest control materials is covered in (a)

21 through (d). The vast majority. And that was

22 the main focus. That was also kind of the --
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1 what we had found to be most variable.

2 The application of 206(f) didn't

3 seem to be that variable in the experiences

4 that we were aware of prior to our

5 discussions.

6 CHAIR STONE: Miles?

7 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, in our

8 experience of doing accreditation audits we

9 actually are seeing a fair amount of

10 variability in the interpretation of (f). So

11 we're working on some clarification of that.

12 It's actually a very nuanced part of the rule.

13 So we could report more information on that to

14 the Board if you're interested.

15 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Anything

16 else? Jennifer, I think your mike is still

17 on.

18 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes, thanks.

19 CHAIR STONE: Anything else from

20 the Board? Do you want to vote this one while

21 we're here? No vote? Okay, thank you.

22 MEMBER BECK: Okay. Well, thank
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1 you so much. Can we go ahead and just move

2 on, Mac, to your statement?

3 CHAIR STONE: Great. So, the

4 committee, I guess it's a year ago now we had

5 a discussion document around sound and

6 sensible which a lot of that was to educate

7 the broader community about the work that the

8 program and the certifiers, the inspector core

9 were working together to make a more sound and

10 sensible certification process.

11 The Secretary I guess had

12 approached Mark and Miles concerned that the

13 increasing numbers of -- the numbers of

14 organic operations was not increasing as fast

15 as they would like and wondered what was going

16 on.

17 And the onerous certification

18 process was one of the things. High grain

19 prices and there's other factors as well.

20 But so, the program has done lots

21 of work. The certifiers as individuals, the

22 ACA, the collective ACA with Scott Rice and
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1 Pat Kane and the Board had done a lot of work.

2 They had a working group to evaluate lots of

3 different options.

4 So, the program recalibrated the

5 accreditation auditors. The certifiers at the

6 first of this conversation said yes, we can

7 think of lots of stuff that we could do that

8 would make this easier but it has to be

9 compliant with our accreditation manual.

10 And then how the auditors

11 interpret our implementation of our

12 accreditation manual and that type of thing.

13 Certifiers are in different parts of the

14 country, different audit cores.

15 We had different beliefs and

16 interpretations so there's inconsistency not

17 just among certifiers but partly because the

18 auditors had different feelings and different

19 individuals and their perceptions.

20 So, the program, Miles and Sheri

21 Courtney and that team, all of those

22 accreditation managers worked very hard to get
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1 consistency of the message, retooling of those

2 accreditation auditors.

3 And the accreditation staff, Sheri

4 and her staff meet more routinely. They bring

5 each other news from the field if you will so

6 that when they get questions from certifiers

7 they were being answered in a more consistent

8 way.

9 Prior to the Portland meeting I

10 think Ib made reference to it in his public

11 comment the other day, yesterday. We all sat

12 in one room, representatives all sat in one

13 room and discussed what are some options that

14 we maintain integrity at all costs. But how

15 do we answer these different types of

16 questions.

17 So this obviously is an ongoing

18 process and continual improvement is very much

19 the moniker that this group, individuals are

20 working continuously to think and work

21 together.

22 At the annual certifier training
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1 this year the program has a one-day

2 educational update and then the certifiers

3 have two additional days that they work

4 amongst themselves for that continual

5 improvement.

6 And it's nice to know that at the

7 end of that second day Miles was giving the

8 presentation and I was kind of the secretary

9 of the conversation if you will.

10 After several questions Scott, the

11 questions stopped coming in. Miles was just

12 saying tell me what I need to know, tell me

13 what I need to know. And the certifiers were

14 much more comfortable. It was a great feeling

15 to see the additional comfort from the first

16 one of those I went to several years ago which

17 is a shout-out to how well the certifiers and

18 the accreditation folks are working to make a

19 better system.

20 So, some of the things the

21 certifiers are doing. One of the biggest

22 things I mentioned yesterday is this
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1 information exchange between operators and

2 their certifier. Electronic updates. The

3 different certifiers have different systems.

4 It can be electronic.

5 Some smaller certifiers, they call

6 them up on the phone and say what's different?

7 How many chickens you got? How many cows you

8 got? And that's the only difference. You

9 know, buffers aren't changing, inputs aren't

10 changing, barns aren't changing, milking

11 systems aren't changing. So a more

12 streamlined update to an annual update system.

13 Another big part of this was

14 training inspectors, not just a more thorough

15 exit interview process but Margaret Scholls

16 and IOA are doing a good job of kind of

17 reevaluating how the exit interview can be a

18 valuable tool in all of this.

19 But also to help the inspectors be

20 more comfortable in not consulting with the

21 operator but to educate them, to explain the

22 rule, interpret the jargon that's inherent in
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1 the rule. Because as we said they're the face

2 of certification to a lot of operators.

3 Material review is sort of this

4 messy problem that certifiers and

5 inconsistency across the different certifiers'

6 capability to do good material review is sort

7 of inherent in all this. Again, that's

8 another part of the conversation.

9 The groups, the certifiers and the

10 program agreed on definitions. It says you

11 must document. Does that mean a piece of

12 paper, or does that mean that the inspector

13 can visually verify so there's not all of this

14 paper that has to be submitted to the

15 certifier? If there's a good communication

16 between the inspector and the certifier visual

17 verification can go a long way in reducing

18 some of the paperwork burden that Miles

19 referred to.

20 So all in all I guess certifiers

21 are doing everything they can to make their

22 clients happy but also sleep good at night
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1 knowing that all of their operators meet the

2 letter of the rule, and understand the rule,

3 and can make those decisions going forward in

4 a comfortable way, and have built a better

5 relationship with the program and the

6 accreditation staff, getting their questions

7 answered.

8 The ACA, a shout-out to Pat Kane

9 and the ACA as a group, how well they work

10 together and try to help each other to gain

11 this consistency across the spectrum on the

12 various topics.

13 So, that's just sort of an

14 overview and I would welcome any questions or

15 thoughts. Francis?

16 MEMBER THICKE: I just want to

17 report that last year my inspection -- it must

18 be working because my inspection was so easy

19 on my farm and my processing plant. It was

20 just a totally different thing.

21 And I kept all the old information

22 from last year in my database and just updated
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1 things. That didn't change were the same.

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIR STONE: Would you like to

4 repeat that, please?

5 (Laughter)

6 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Well, sure

7 enough, thank you, Francis. That's one thing

8 that's really good to hear. I know Miles and

9 the certifiers are really glad to hear that.

10 Because it takes the accreditation

11 -- not everybody gets accredited every year.

12 They'd go bankrupt if they were -- had an

13 audit every year. But it takes a few years

14 for all of us to get fully implemented and the

15 comfort level of certifiers.

16 If they retool in some way and

17 their accreditation auditors are not

18 comfortable with the reduction of a paperwork

19 transfer, information transfer, then they're

20 going to get a non-compliance and they have

21 more work to go back to whatever it was.

22 So I know there's anxiousness
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1 among certifiers, how far can they go without

2 getting themselves in trouble. So I'm really,

3 really glad to hear you say that you've

4 already seen it and felt it on the ground.

5 So, Madam Chair, that concludes my

6 report.

7 MEMBER BECK: Great, well those

8 were our three topics so that concludes the

9 CACS report.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Thank

11 you. Carmela did a great job with running

12 that committee this term.

13 Okay, Handling Subcommittee is

14 next on the agenda. Harold Austin, chair of

15 the subcommittee, I'll turn it over to you to

16 get us started.

17 MEMBER AUSTIN: All right.

18 Thanks, Mac. I'm just going to run over

19 quickly what the Handling Subcommittee is

20 going to be bringing forward to the full Board

21 for deliberation today.

22 We've got two proposals. The
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1 first proposal is to add to 205.605 ammonium

2 hydroxide as a boiler water additive,

3 petitioned.

4 The second proposal is to remove

5 from 205.605(b) glycerin, CAS number 56-81-5,

6 petitioned.

7 The next item is a discussion

8 document. This document is talking about

9 polyalkylene glycol monobutyl ether, from now

10 on called PGME. This was petitioned to be

11 added to 205.605(b) as a boiler water additive

12 material. And we'll clarify that during our

13 subcommittee preponderance.

14 We will have an update on

15 ancillary substances. This will help to give

16 stakeholders an update as to where we are on

17 this initial phase of the implementation of

18 the review of ancillary substances.

19 We are going to look at using

20 microorganisms, one of our 2016 sunset

21 materials as our guinea pig to test the

22 process and see what we need to do to improve
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1 or otherwise with that.

2 And then we'll move into the

3 sunset 2015 materials, there's four of those.

4 This will be the first of the scheduled two5 part comment periods for use of the four

6 materials. The first posting gives the

7 subcommittee, in this case the Handling

8 Subcommittee, an opportunity to pose

9 additional and specific questions to either

10 the stakeholders, the certifiers, or the

11 original petitioner about the material that's

12 now being -- beginning its required sunset

13 review process.

14 With that I will turn it over to

15 our -- our first material will be ammonium

16 hydroxide.

17 Before we start on that I would

18 like to say that the two proposals and the

19 discussion document, we'll probably like to

20 defer the voting until tomorrow.

21 And for the full Board's

22 consideration we'd like to have good
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1 discussion on this so we'll go over the public

2 comment.

3 The subcommittee is considering

4 referring these three proposals back to the

5 subcommittee for further deliberation.

6 With that we'll have our lead on

7 ammonium hydroxide.

8 CHAIR STONE: Lisa will start.

9 MEMBER AUSTIN: Lisa?

10 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The

11 petition for ammonium hydroxide was submitted

12 on November 2, 2012 from Dr. Richard Theurer.

13 The petition requests the addition

14 of ammonium hydroxide to Section 205.605 of

15 the National List as a synthetic substance for

16 handling and processing.

17 There are some background

18 materials available from a previous review of

19 this substance when it was petitioned in 2000

20 so the subcommittee was able to use that

21 previous technical report from 2001 to assist

22 in its review. Thanks.
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Jean is our lead

2 reviewer on this.

3 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you.

4 There's quite a bit to say about ammonium

5 hydroxide. Just to be sure we have it in the

6 record and in order for us to be able to

7 discuss it fully I will be giving quite a bit

8 on the background of this material.

9 Ammonium hydroxide is a strong

10 alkali and used as a boiler additive to

11 prevent boiler and pipe corrosion by reducing

12 the pH to 8.509 and neutralizing carbonic

13 acid.

14 It's manufactured from natural

15 gas, synthetic -- the natural gas which is

16 used to convert atmospheric nitrogen to

17 ammonia to which water is added. It is toxic

18 by all routes.

19 In terms of the actual background,

20 the history of this material, in the NOSB

21 Organic Good Manufacturing Practices of 1995

22 did not include boiler additives.
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1 In 2001 ammonium hydroxide was

2 petitioned for addition to the National List

3 and there was a TEP review which was actually

4 quite a lengthy one. And attached to it were

5 many appendices and a steam paper which

6 analyzes and compares all the boiler

7 additives. But that was in 2001. As you'll

8 see later we have some concerns as to its

9 modern day adequacy after public comment.

10 This TEP review as done by OMRI

11 back in 2001 and it recommended prohibition of

12 ammonium hydroxide.

13 And in August 2001 there was a

14 lengthy analysis submitted to the NOSB by Dr.

15 Theurer comparing all of boiler additives.

16 The NOSB recommendation dated

17 October 2001 was to approve limited use of

18 three amine boiler additives which we'll also

19 get to in a minute, and to approve ammonium

20 hydroxide "for use as a boiler additive only

21 with removal from the National List October

22 21, 2005."
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1 And if the Office of General

2 Counsel says no to a shorter sunset date the

3 material will remain prohibited. And the vote

4 was 10 in favor, 3 abstentions and 1 no.

5 I mention this because in the

6 final rule, the NOP dated September 2006 which

7 stated that most commenters wanted the

8 chemical included and some did not. However,

9 the expiration date recommended by the NOSB

10 had lapsed and therefore it was not added to

11 the list.

12 Therefore in October 2012 Dr.

13 Theurer submitted this petition that Lisa has

14 just read into the record. It's a new

15 petition with appendices to add the ammonium

16 hydroxide to the National List "solely for use

17 as a boiler water additive to neutralize

18 carbon dioxide in steam condensate."

19 The petitioner in his materials

20 suggests that the addition of ammonium

21 hydroxide as a boiler additive on the National

22 List would allow the eliminate of the three
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1 synthetic volatile amines.

2 And as time went by and we got

3 public comment and looked around we still

4 don't really know whether that is correct or

5 not. So, it is -- and we have not received

6 further information that would clarify it as

7 I'll get to when I talk in public comments in

8 a few minutes.

9 So, right now the National List

10 currently includes three volatile synthetic

11 amines as boiler water additives. Here we go,

12 I'll read them out: cyclohexylamine,

13 diethylaminoethanol and two neutralizing

14 amines, and octadecyclamine, a filming amine.

15 The pronunciation is more or less correct.

16 It should be noted that these

17 three amines are only for packaging

18 sterilization. They're not for broad use.

19 The present petition is for somewhat broader

20 use and it may get into culinary steam. I'll

21 get to that in a minute too.

22 The petitioner indicates that
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1 ammonium hydroxide is a direct food substance

2 affirmed by the FDA is generally recognized as

3 safe, grass, for what, you know. And again,

4 as Jay mentioned this morning, that's

5 something for us to consider just as one of

6 the criteria or pieces of information.

7 The petitioner indicates that the

8 form of ammonium hydroxide in the steam

9 condensate itself is actually ammonium

10 carbonate and states that the substance

11 ammonium carbonate is currently on the

12 National List.

13 However, it should be noted that

14 ammonium carbonate and ammonium bicarbonate

15 are on the National List only for use as

16 leavening agents.

17 In contrast, the three synthetic

18 amines retain their identity in the steam

19 condensate and thus persist into the processed

20 food in their forms.

21 So we will of course look to

22 essentiality, one of the criteria which we
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1 must consider. And we found that when we

2 first did this back when John was chairing

3 this Handling Committee last year we discussed

4 and noted that there are many different

5 alternatives for ammonium hydroxide.

6 And I'll read them out because

7 there are a lot of them that we need to really

8 be thinking about as we look at these and the

9 other boiler additives. Stainless steel

10 piping. Treatment of incoming water to

11 soften, filter and purify. Physical and

12 chemical deaeration, interrupt your boiler

13 water treatment before the organic processing,

14 bleed runs, blowdowns, dismantle the system

15 and clean before organic runs, steam-to-steam

16 heat exchangers, secondary boiler steam for

17 direct food contact application. So there's

18 a lot of management things that could be done

19 which would make this non-essential for the

20 intent that the petitioner was asking for.

21 And therefore the subcommittee

22 voted in February of 2013 -- 2013, note -- for
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1 yes - zero, no - 6, absent - 2 and there were

2 no abstentions or recusal.

3 Then the fall meeting was canceled

4 and we did have some public input which I'll

5 get to in a second.

6 So in February 2014 the newly

7 revised subcommittee under Harold's leadership

8 revised the proposal to go out to the public

9 seeking further public comment regarding

10 essentiality of ammonium hydroxide especially

11 in light of the upcoming 2016 sunset review

12 for the three amines.

13 And the public comment were

14 received both in the fall of 2013 and spring

15 2014 from several commenters including the

16 petitioner.

17 The majority of the public

18 comments such as Consumers Union, Beyond

19 Pesticides and individuals recommended not

20 adding ammonium hydroxide to the National

21 List.

22 The petitioner provided written
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1 comment raising broader issues related to the

2 use of chloramines in drinking water and

3 states that we the NOSB "have failed to

4 distinguish between manageable hazards of

5 ammonium hydroxide added to a boiler in a

6 factory and the absence of any risk created by

7 consumption of a food product containing a few

8 parts per million of ammonium carbonate

9 contributed by the condensate water."

10 However, the petitioner did not

11 provide us with -- we're still unaware of

12 which producers out there, which handlers,

13 which processors, which people want this

14 material as a boiler additive. So we don't

15 have that information yet.

16 And also, Dr. Theurer still has

17 failed to help us to fully understand the full

18 range of uses of this material in the culinary

19 steam uses that may come into play if there is

20 any suggestion that this could be used, that

21 the ammonium hydroxide could be used to

22 replace the three amines.
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1 So, while there doesn't appear to

2 be a demand for this chemical there are many

3 alternatives. We're presently thinking in the

4 subcommittee that it might be more sensible

5 for us to send this back to the subcommittee

6 in order to really be able to analyze this

7 boiler additive along with the sunset boiler

8 additives as a group.

9 And I especially want to thank

10 Cornucopia for providing us a little bit of

11 additional data as part of the public comment

12 which they've supplied to us for PGME which

13 I'll get to later where as you heard in the

14 public comment yesterday they did some quick

15 research for us to find out if they knew who

16 was using as range of boiler additives

17 including the three amines.

18 And this is already part of the

19 public record. I won't go into it in any more

20 detail here.

21 But again, it raises some concerns

22 that we probably should be looking at all of
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1 these boiler additives with perhaps some more

2 information and look at them as a group so

3 that we don't inadvertently vote no on a

4 boiler additive when in fact it could be used

5 to replace things that are more toxic.

6 And those ones that are more toxic

7 are the ones that are coming up for sunset.

8 So probably I would be, Harold, recommending

9 that we send these back to the subcommittee to

10 be looked at together for the four. So that's

11 our report.

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you, Jean.

13 And that's kind of part of what I was alluding

14 to when we started was that we'd like to defer

15 the voting on these till tomorrow.

16 And that's probably going to be

17 our subcommittee recommendation to the Board

18 will be to refer these back to committee so

19 that we can group them, take a better look at

20 them as a whole group rather than this one

21 particular product. Since we know we have the

22 other three amines coming up on 2016.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Are there others

2 who'd like to weigh in at this point?

3 Colehour?

4 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. I

5 actually frankly don't want to talk about this

6 but I want to just site a minor error in the

7 document which reports on the listing motion

8 that it was seconded by Colehour Bondera who

9 does not serve on the Handling Committee.

10 So I just want to make sure that

11 everybody in their record for the sake of

12 review knows that for whatever reason, if you

13 do or don't want to know that, my

14 understanding is it was Carmela Beck who

15 seconded that last year. But in any case,

16 slight correction.

17 MEMBER RICHARDSON: It's the

18 initials that do it.

19 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: We'd be happy

20 to adopt you.

21 CHAIR STONE: Yes, just for the

22 audience in the minutes and whatnot, in our
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1 correspondence there is CBO which is Colehour

2 Bondera and CBE which is Carmela Beck. So I

3 assume that's what happened in translation

4 there. But thank you for pointing that out

5 for the official document here. Jay?

6 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. Thank

7 you for that thorough report. Jean, do we

8 know who Dr. Theurer represents? Does he have

9 a client for this petition?

10 MEMBER RICHARDSON: No, my

11 understanding he does not have a specific

12 client. In fact, his public comment, the

13 written form that came in and the other

14 materials list him as an independent person.

15 But obviously he does have people that he's

16 working with but they're not specifically

17 mentioned in this, no.

18 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

19 CHAIR STONE: Melissa?

20 DR. BAILEY: Thanks, Mac. Yes, I

21 think that makes a lot of sense. I think

22 where the subcommittee is going with this to
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1 consider it perhaps against the other three

2 additives that are already on the National

3 List. Because those three will be discussed

4 at the fall meeting.

5 It seems like one possibility

6 would be to have an expert panel or a few

7 experts here on this particular subject area

8 if that would be helpful for those

9 deliberations.

10 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: Just

12 clarification on the process. The three

13 amines are up for sunset so that will be the

14 first meeting on the amines. But would be

15 expect to be voting on the ammonium hydroxide

16 at the fall meeting?

17 DR. BAILEY: I think that would be

18 up to the subcommittee.

19 CHAIR STONE: It depends on where

20 they are on their information stream leading

21 up to that meeting. Jay?

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: On that point
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1 then, it seems to me if I understood your

2 presentation correctly it would be good to

3 have all the information assembled on all four

4 materials so that when voting whoever's voting

5 at that time has an understanding of how they

6 relate to each other and what action will be

7 taken.

8 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

9 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes, I agree

10 with you, Jay. I think that especially since

11 we haven't noted a demand for this. I mean,

12 we've had no company that says this is

13 essential, this ammonium hydroxide, we really

14 want it now. We haven't seen any demand for

15 that.

16 So I don't think delaying this

17 until the spring of next year when we'll be

18 looking at the amines, I don't think that

19 that's going to be an issue.

20 But certainly we could put it on

21 the fall agenda at least for an update. When

22 we're doing the sunset of the others we'll be
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1 sure to bring it up at the same time so that

2 people can see that we're still trying to

3 accumulate all the appropriate information to

4 come up with a good decision.

5 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

6 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes, Jay. I think

7 that if you look at the listing motion the

8 subcommittee actually was zero yes and 6 no on

9 this proposal to move it forward for listing.

10 But based off of public comments

11 in the fall and then again this spring we

12 decided that some of the points that have been

13 raised are valid and if we can take a look at

14 the boiler group collectively as a whole, and

15 if there's a possibility that we could remove

16 three toxic amines off of the list of approved

17 materials and replace it with one material

18 that's a solid move and it's a move in the

19 right direction.

20 So we want to make sure we get it

21 right. So we're going to take our time and

22 we're going to make sure that this one's done
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1 properly. And that's the whole purpose of

2 what we're trying to accomplish now.

3 CHAIR STONE: And Jean made

4 reference I remember on one of the calls some

5 is just boilers. There's no food contact.

6 Some there's packaging contact. And then

7 there's culinary steam. So that's that sort

8 of overlay of three different uses much less

9 four different materials. So there's kind of

10 a matrix to be built there I guess in that.

11 Anything else from the Board?

12 Very good. Thank you, Harold. Next up?

13 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay, our next

14 material is glycerin. Lisa, you can lead us

15 off. Tracy is the lead reviewer on that.

16 DR. BRINES: Okay. Thanks,

17 Harold. The petition for glycerin was

18 submitted on January 4, 2013 by Draco Natural

19 Products. The petitioner requests the removal

20 of glycerin from Section 205.605(b) of the

21 National List.

22 The current listing reads,
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1 "Glycerin produced by hydrolysis of fats and

2 oils."

3 There is one additional listing

4 for glycerin on the National List under an

5 alternate spelling with an E at the end.

6 That's on 205.603, an allowance in organic

7 livestock production as a teat dip.

8 That particular allowance is not

9 within the scope of this petition. The

10 removal is just requesting the committee

11 address 205.605.

12 In support of its review the

13 Handling Subcommittee did request the

14 development of a third party technical

15 evaluation report. That report was completed

16 in 2013 and is posted on the NOP website.

17 Thanks.

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: Tracy, go ahead.

19 MEMBER FAVRE: Thanks, Harold.

20 Okay, so at first blush this looked like a

21 fairly straightforward petition. They've

22 requested to remove it from 205.605(b) with
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1 the assertion that there is sufficient

2 quantity of organic glycerin. So, in our

3 efforts for continuous improvement we should

4 consider removal.

5 When we put the proposal together

6 we did actually have this proposed for the

7 fall meeting as Lisa said and put in a request

8 specifically because we understand that

9 glycerin is used in a wide variety of

10 products. We wanted to get some feedback on

11 what the potential impact would be on the

12 industry should it be removed.

13 So under the classification of be

14 careful what you ask for we've gotten some

15 feedback that appears to make this a lot more

16 complicated than we first thought.

17 So, initially the intent after the

18 review of the TR and the past materials was

19 for a recommendation from the subcommittee to

20 remove glycerin as currently listed. For the

21 reasons that -- it did seem as though there

22 was sufficient quantity of organic glycerin
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1 available.

2 However, again referring to the

3 public comments, because there is some

4 confusion about the classification of

5 glycerin, there is some draft material out

6 there for classification of materials that

7 would provide us some guidance, but it is a

8 little confusing because there are multiple

9 processes by which glycerin can be made. And

10 in some cases it's considered organic --

11 excuse me, it could be considered agricultural

12 and in some cases it's considered synthetic.

13 So that muddies the water.

14 After looking at the potential

15 impacts, particularly as it relates to natural

16 flavorings and natural colors essentially --

17 and that coupled with the confusion around the

18 classification of glycerin we've decided as a

19 committee generally that we are probably going

20 to refer this back to committee to reassess

21 based on the comments that we've received in

22 public.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Is there

2 further input for the committee or this

3 discussion? Okay, thank you. I think we did

4 hear several different things yesterday and

5 then in written as well. So rarely are things

6 as simple as they appear. Okay, Harold?

7 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks, Mac. I

8 think to go along with that I think it comes

9 into play. Making sure that we make the right

10 choices so that we don't negatively impact our

11 organic community.

12 If we're not going to get it right

13 we're going to pull it back and make sure that

14 when we come forward with something that we do

15 get it right based off of essentiality, trying

16 to get our heads around the facts about the

17 availability.

18 And about not just the

19 availability of organic glycerin but it also

20 boils down to is that organic glycerin an

21 adequate substitute in the form that it is for

22 what's currently being used as well. So
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1 there's a lot of peripheral things that we

2 need to take a look at and consider.

3 Plus the peripheral impact of this

4 decision. So, Tracy. Mac.

5 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes, I just wanted

6 to add I thought the remarks by Bill Wolf on

7 Tuesday were indicative of some of the

8 confusion around it where the original

9 petitioner themselves has said wait a minute,

10 we need to assess the impact of this and

11 reconsider.

12 So, I think for me that was a

13 compelling reason to go ahead and pull it back

14 even though we'd already considered doing

15 that.

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thanks, Tracy.

17 Our next material to talk about will be

18 polyalkylene glycol monobutyl ether.

19 Actually, I already said that was just going

20 to be PGME from now on.

21 So, Lisa, if you would go ahead

22 and then Jean was the lead reviewer on this.
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1 MEMBER FAVRE: Sure. Thanks,

2 Harold. The petition for PGME was submitted

3 on December 27, 2012 by Pellet Products, Inc.

4 The petition requests the addition of PGME to

5 Section 205.605 of the National List as a

6 boiler water additive.

7 In support of its review the

8 Handling Subcommittee did request the

9 development of a technical evaluation report

10 and that report was completed in 2013 and is

11 posted on the NOP website.

12 This petition is also an agenda

13 item from the fall meeting that's moved

14 forward from the canceled meeting and it is a

15 discussion document that was reposted with no

16 revisions. Thanks.

17 MEMBER AUSTIN: Jean?

18 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you. I

19 like boiler water additives, actually.

20 They're quite interesting.

21 All right. This boiler additive

22 was an interesting one. We received the
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1 information on this back in 2013. And as we

2 looked at it, at the technical report we noted

3 that the PGME is non-volatile and as far as we

4 could tell from the technical report it

5 remains in the boiler and does not come into

6 direct contact with the processed organic

7 products, in this case feed meal materials.

8 It's a very interesting material.

9 It functions to reduce foaming during

10 production of pelleted livestock feeds and

11 also functions as a lubricant.

12 It has the unique property of

13 inverse solubility such that it dissolves

14 easily in cold water but at temperatures over

15 104 which is cloud point it's completely

16 insoluble.

17 So, PGME is not delivered with the

18 steam but remains in the boiler as a

19 precipitate until the cooler boils down below

20 the cloud point and thus PGME does not come

21 into contact with the feed. And it has

22 extremely low toxicity. And there's all sorts
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1 of other good things about it.

2 However, let's see, there are no

3 natural sources of it, although there are --

4 there are not many natural anti-foam

5 chemicals. There are natural oils such as

6 cottonseed, lard, sunflower, and so forth that

7 are listed in the discussion document but very

8 little data is available on these.

9 So, initially what the Handling

10 Committee did was the normal thing. We

11 developed a recommendation or a proposal based

12 on the checklist and were voting that it would

13 be okay based on our interpretation of the

14 petition, the TR, the attachments and all the

15 material that we had received. And as I say,

16 it's a new TR that was done.

17 And then when the NOP saw that

18 they determined that because there is

19 apparently no contact of the PGME with the

20 food material, in this case animal feed, that

21 therefore it wasn't necessary for it to be

22 petitioned to be on the National List.
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1 And so therefore they recommended

2 that we turn it into a discussion document and

3 that this is the discussion document that was

4 then posted ready for last fall. The document

5 was to seek public comment on this petition

6 and with the NOP notifying the petitioner that

7 they would have thought that PGME is not

8 eligible for petition to 205.605(b) because it

9 is not used in direct contact with organic

10 products.

11 Then we got public comment. We

12 didn't get any public comment that I recall

13 from last fall. But since then with the re14 posting of this we got some very interesting

15 public comment.

16 We got comment from Beyond

17 Pesticides, Cornucopia, OTA, NOC, Center for

18 Food Safety and one individual. Public

19 comment raised some very serious concerns that

20 the petition and the technical report

21 contained inaccuracies and inconsistencies.

22 Beyond Pesticides, "believes that
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1 although PGME is non-volatile contact with

2 organic food is possible under this use

3 through entrainment of water droplets and

4 should be evaluated through the petition

5 process for its appropriateness for use in

6 organic production.

7 "PGME is made from highly toxic

8 ethylene dioxide and the TR identifies

9 alternative production practices that do not

10 require an additive like PGME," end of quote.

11 Cornucopia states that, quote, the

12 quality of the technical report does not

13 provide sufficient information to evaluate

14 PGME. They further state, quote, "The

15 petition submitted by the manufacturer of the

16 product containing PGME designed to be used in

17 livestock feed mills states that the mode of

18 action is through direct contact with the

19 product," end of quote.

20 The TR, however, states that this

21 does not occur, but the TR does not provide

22 adequate citation for this assertion so that
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1 it could then be independently verified.

2 Cornucopia further asserts that

3 entrainment of water droplets is possible, and

4 that the TR conflicts with the petition,

5 raising the possibility of PGME being in

6 contact with animal feed pellets.

7 The subcommittee then discussed

8 these public comments received, both those

9 submitted in writing as well as oral comment

10 that we've heard. And we proposed that any

11 decision on listing or not listing PGME should

12 be deferred until we have more information

13 both from the petitioner and a TR contractor.

14 And it should be noted that the

15 petition is limited for use as a processing

16 aid for livestock feed pellets. And it should

17 also be -- and that this petition was

18 initially sent to the Materials Subcommittee

19 for feedback on whether the petition should be

20 addressed in Livestock or Handling because OTA

21 pointed out it was maybe in the wrong

22 subcommittee.
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1 But the Handling Subcommittee was

2 assigned this petition and we worked with the

3 Materials Subcommittee to keep them informed

4 at the same time because the idea is to have

5 them all -- sorry, the Handling Committee, so

6 that the Handling Committee could really look

7 at all of these boiler additives together.

8 So, I guess we don't want to

9 petition right now, do we, Harold? We'll do

10 that tomorrow. Okay.

11 So, I'd like, perhaps if I may,

12 Jay, you had some other comments in Beyond

13 Pesticides that I was hoping that you would

14 also bring up in terms of the -- whether or

15 not NOP should have just let us do the

16 document or not. If you would please

17 articulate those.

18 CHAIR STONE: Jay.

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: Sure, thank you.

20 You know, this goes to the issue of

21 production. I mean, production aids or issues

22 related to processing where there may not be
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1 -- it may not be a food contact substance

2 which we believe it is because the TR actually

3 identifies entrainment. But because of it

4 being an input in the production process.

5 And so I don't know if that's a

6 difference of interpretation of the law, or

7 why the food contact substance issue would

8 preclude an NOSB review. And so that's

9 raised, as you point out, that's raised in the

10 Beyond Pesticides comment.

11 I guess I don't have anything more

12 to add on that. It just may be a straight up

13 disagreement on interpreting the law.

14 But are there other examples I

15 would ask of where food contact becomes the

16 ultimate issue when the material is part of

17 the production processing, production and/or

18 processing of the end product that's labeled

19 organic.

20 CHAIR STONE: Miles.

21 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, this is part of

22 the reason why we bring these kinds of things
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1 to the Board. Great discussion, great to have

2 public input on this, on these complex issues.

3 The basic concept would be if the

4 substance does not come into contact, does not

5 by direct or indirect contact with the organic

6 product that it's not really relevant to the

7 organic system. So there's many things that

8 are used in both production and handling that

9 are outside the scope of the regulations.

10 For instance, if you had cleaning

11 supplies for your bathroom that's used in the

12 production facility or in the handling

13 facility, not really relevant.

14 But this is a more interesting

15 substance because the concept of entrainment,

16 it certainly comes close. So that's why it

17 should be evaluated very, very closely.

18 But there's areas I guess where

19 there's going to be a clear line of yes,

20 that's not relevant. We don't need to look at

21 what they're using to clean their bathrooms,

22 or what they're using in their kitchen.
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1 But if it's near the production or

2 handling system, then it's certainly worth a

3 careful look. And that's what inspectors and

4 certifiers are doing when they're evaluating

5 onsite, when they're doing their inspections

6 they're evaluating all the substances that are

7 being used to see if they have any possibility

8 of commingling or contamination of the organic

9 product.

10 If it's being used in the handling

11 of the organic product then it has to be an

12 allowed substance.

13 CHAIR STONE: Jay.

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: And I guess that

15 was the position we came down on which was a

16 7 USC 6504 National Standards for Organic

17 Production to be sold or labeled as an

18 organically produced agricultural product.

19 Under this title an agricultural product shall

20 have been produced and handled without the use

21 of synthetic chemicals except as otherwise

22 provided.
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1 So it's that interpretation I

2 would think is distinct from the management

3 practices of the facility which do intersect

4 especially with storage facilities with

5 organic standards.

6 But this is certainly a part of

7 the handling and production of the product,

8 the agricultural product.

9 MR. MCEVOY: Right. And you have

10 to think that there are many things that are

11 used in a processing facility, for instance,

12 that are looked at in the inspection process

13 but are not looked at in terms of whether

14 they're on the National List.

15 For instance, there's a lot of

16 equipment that has various lubricants that are

17 used. And if during the evaluation of the

18 system you determine that there's no potential

19 contact or contamination of the organic

20 products that it's not really relevant for

21 review.

22 You can think on a farming
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1 operation there's a lot of mechanical

2 equipment. There's the diesel or the gasoline

3 that's used to run the equipment. Again,

4 those things are not on the National List.

5 So, it is challenging at times to determine

6 where -- how far you go. But there's

7 definitely an evaluation part of the process

8 by the certifiers and inspectors.

9 CHAIR STONE: Francis?

10 MEMBER THICKE: Well, you could go

11 ahead and go back and look at this material.

12 I think you need to look a little more closely

13 at the chemistry and make sure you've got a

14 real chemical analysis. Because if something

15 is completely soluble at low temperature I'm

16 pretty skeptical that it's zero solubility at

17 a high temperature. KSP doesn't go down to

18 zero I don't think.

19 And also the vapor pressure. I

20 mean, that's a little suspicious in my mind.

21 It needs to be looked at I think.

22 CHAIR STONE: Okay, seeing no more
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1 hands, going once, twice, okay. You good,

2 Harold?

3 MEMBER AUSTIN: We're good. We

4 appreciate the feedback. Okay, for those

5 three materials we look to defer voting on

6 those tomorrow.

7 Having said that we'll move onto

8 our next topic which will be an update on

9 ancillary substances given to us by Zea.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay, now that

11 everyone is wide awake we can talk about one

12 of our favorite subjects.

13 This is brief and quite informal.

14 And I apologize to those of you who aren't

15 into all that brevity stuff.

16 But as you all know what started

17 out as other ingredients and now is known as

18 ancillary substances are defined in our

19 proposal that was passed in Portland as

20 additives that are added during the

21 manufacturing of a non-organic substance and

22 not removed.
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1 We did pass this as a proposal at

2 our last meeting a year ago and we are

3 operating under this proposal at least until

4 we see the need to make changes to it. So

5 we're going to try it out and see how it

6 works.

7 As Harold mentioned our little

8 test case, our first test case is going to be

9 the microorganisms which are scheduled for a

10 2016 sunset. And so that means that they will

11 come for their first session before the Board

12 at the next meeting, at the fall 2014 meeting.

13 A TR was done, an initial TR was

14 done on microorganisms. Unfortunately it was

15 commissioned before we had passed the

16 ancillary substance proposal and so it did not

17 include a full set of questions regarding

18 ancillary substances the way we would like to

19 have them covered.

20 And it also didn't include a few

21 of the microorganisms that we need to look at,

22 like fungi.
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1 So, we have developed a series of

2 questions to get another TR or a supplemental

3 TR done. They're not quite finalized yet but

4 we'll be going at our next -- by the time we

5 have another phone call we'll be going through

6 the subcommittee and onto Lisa to get the TR

7 underway.

8 We are looking -- we have

9 identified, meanwhile, at least the beginning

10 of those functional classes of ancillaries

11 that will be in the microorganisms.

12 And some of those ancillary

13 categories that we've come up with are anti14 caking agents and antioxidants, carriers and

15 fillers, what would be known as growth media

16 or substrate, preservatives and stabilizers.

17 And so those are a few of the groups we will

18 be looking at.

19 We have developed a special

20 checklist that will -- for the ancillaries

21 that will -- or not checklist. Yes, I guess

22 checklist is the right form. That will go as
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1 a secondary checklist along with the main

2 checklist for the microorganisms.

3 The checklist will include the

4 functional classes and the things we have

5 reviewed so that once a proposal is through

6 the ACAs and the others who care about this

7 stuff can go after our meeting and just look

8 at the one piece of paper and say okay, now we

9 know which ancillaries are approved for this

10 particular class of things and which ones may

11 not be.

12 We will be having these go as a

13 separate proposal. Right, Miles? A separate

14 proposal for each meeting. So there will be

15 a microorganisms proposal and then there will

16 be an ancillary proposal for that thing?

17 That's what I perceived is in the checklist

18 that Emily gave us.

19 DR. BRINES: Yes, I think you were

20 going to do them in sequence. That was the

21 plan.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, okay. So,
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1 it will be very clear to everyone that we have

2 reviewed the ancillary substances that go with

3 each thing.

4 The checklist does address the key

5 points that are in our evaluation criteria

6 such as impacts in humans on the environment,

7 essentiality, availability and comparability

8 and consistency with organic handling.

9 And that's really my report.

10 We'll see how it goes at the fall meeting.

11 Oh, I do want to put out the call

12 well ahead of time to especially Pat and the

13 certifiers in the room.

14 We would really like to start

15 collecting spec sheets and see the spec sheets

16 which will indicate what the ancillaries are

17 for microorganisms.

18 If you could mention on the ACA

19 listserv perhaps that if anyone has

20 microorganism spec sheets they can either

21 email them to me or Michelle or Emily Brown

22 Rosen who I believe you have both of their
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1 emails.

2 And same with any handlers in the

3 room that would like to make sure that the

4 ancillaries in their particular things are

5 considered and reviewed. So that's my report,

6 thanks.

7 CHAIR STONE: Zea, I spoke with

8 Scott Rice who's the chair of the ACA board

9 earlier today relative to our sunset

10 conversation the other day.

11 And he has offered Pat. Pat, I

12 didn't get a chance to talk to you about our

13 conversation. Maybe Scott did.

14 But he offered that the ACAs would

15 very much like to help get in front of sunset

16 materials. And they can use brand names and

17 get the word out to help us in our preliminary

18 review for meeting 1 on sunsets. So this

19 falls right in line with that.

20 So I feel sure they're welcome

21 your advice and all of us to reach out to them

22 as a group. Harold?
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Well, I think just

2 to go along with Zea. So, as we go through

3 the materials review process then we'll have

4 the review for the material itself and then it

5 will be followed with a supplemental review of

6 the ancillary material. And that will be on

7 a separate checklist. It won't be on the same

8 materials checklist that we use for the other

9 materials.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, although

11 there are some questions on our regular

12 checklist that also refer to ancillary

13 substances. But probably more along the lines

14 of which types of functional classes are used

15 in this.

16 CHAIR STONE: Okay, are there

17 others on the Handling Committee want to fill

18 in any gaps or details? Or if you're not on

19 the Handling Committee questions for Zea or

20 the Handling Committee. Lisa.

21 DR. BRINES: Yes, just one

22 clarification for those in the audience that
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1 might be looking for that microorganisms

2 technical report. Since it's still under

3 subcommittee review it hasn't been posted for

4 the public yet. But we will have that posted

5 as soon as it's approved by the subcommittee.

6 Thanks.

7 CHAIR STONE: Good. Thanks, Lisa.

8 Other questions or comments for the committee?

9 Okay.

10 Harold, we're scheduled for a

11 break about now but I don't know if you want

12 to run through your sunsets, how long you

13 think that will take and we can break after

14 that. It's up to you. I don't know how long

15 you think we'll be.

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: What do our leads

17 think? Nick says we can go for it. He's not

18 even a lead.

19 CHAIR STONE: We came back a

20 little late.

21 MEMBER AUSTIN: I think we'll be

22 okay to move forward.
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1 CHAIR STONE: We started a little

2 late so actually it would be a cleaner break

3 to work on through this if that's okay. Good,

4 thank you.

5 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. We've got

6 four 2015 materials up for sunset review. The

7 first one will be gellan gum. Joe's the lead

8 on that. Lisa, if you could -- are you --

9 yes, you're going to read that, correct?

10 DR. BRINES: I believe all the

11 information was posted online so I'm happy

12 just to let Joe proceed if you'd like.

13 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Joe, you

14 ready?

15 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes, I'm ready.

16 And just to confirm with you, Harold, as the

17 chair this is our first sunset material under

18 the new approach. I'm just going to kind of

19 talk through the material in general and the

20 process and summarize public comment.

21 MEMBER AUSTIN: I think so, Joe.

22 I think we'll just kind of do an overview of
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1 that's been posted. This is the first of two

2 public reviews of that material.

3 And I think just maybe if we've

4 gotten a little bit of feedback from the

5 public comment we can talk about that right

6 now. I think that would be the approach to

7 take.

8 CHAIR STONE: Yes, I think so.

9 And again, this is our trial balloon on this

10 sunset and we're learning did we reach out

11 well enough in this first meeting. But we'll

12 go with where we are and learn as we go.

13 But I think all of us are

14 dedicated to make this work and we'll go with

15 where we are. Thanks, Joe.

16 MEMBER DICKSON: All right. The

17 listing is for gellan gum, CAS no. 710-10-521,

18 high acyl form only on 205.605(a) as a non19 synthetic material.

20 Gellan gum is a polysaccharide gum

21 produced as a fermentation product of a

22 microbe called pseudomonas elodea.
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1 This bacterium produces a gum

2 which is used as a thickening agent in a

3 diverse array of food products including

4 bakery fillings, confections, dairy products

5 specifically, gels, frostings, icings and

6 glazes.

7 It was petitioned for addition to

8 205.605(b) in 2004. In 2006 a technical

9 evaluation report was completed for the

10 Handling Committee which recommended its

11 addition to 605(b) in April of 2007.

12 Following that a detailed

13 discussion among the Board, the program and

14 the petitioner at that meeting led to the

15 conclusion that it is in fact non-synthetic

16 and should have been added to 205.605(a).

17 The Handling Committee made an

18 updated recommendation in 2007 and it was

19 passed by the full Board at the April 2008

20 meeting.

21 The public comment we have

22 received on this material is overwhelmingly
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1 supportive of re-listing.

2 One important thing to note is

3 that the current listing is for gellan gum

4 high-acyl only which is the non-synthetic form

5 of the substance.

6 Two commenters, Beyond Pesticides

7 and Cornucopia, noted that low-acyl gellan gum

8 shouldn't be on 605(a) and it's not. And that

9 wasn't made as clear as it could have been in

10 the sunset recommendation so I wanted to

11 clarify that.

12 The Hain Celestial Group, CP Kelco

13 which is the manufacturer, QAI, CROPP, all

14 confirm that the material is essential in the

15 production of non-dairy beverages and other

16 specific foods.

17 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thank you,

18 Joe. And Joe said we did have some written

19 and public testimony on this one. Is there

20 any questions for Joe or be sure that we reach

21 out to the community? Zea?

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: I just want to
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1 bring up one point that was raised in public

2 comment that I think was a little

3 misunderstood. And that was the perception

4 that isopropyl alcohol was an ancillary

5 substance in gellan gum when it is in fact a

6 processing aid used in gellan gum. And so I

7 think that is not under consideration as an

8 ancillary substance.

9 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

10 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I'd be

11 interested in hearing maybe, Wendy, the

12 people, or Nick, people who are not on the

13 Handling Subcommittee if you've had a chance

14 to look at this and if you have an opinion

15 based on some of the comments we heard

16 yesterday how you see it going forward.

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: I'm speechless.

18 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

19 MEMBER AUSTIN: I think this was a

20 good material to give us an example of the new

21 sunset process, possibly how it's going to

22 work, its strengths, its weaknesses. I think
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1 we probably need to get a little bit more

2 aggressive on the requests of specific

3 information.

4 Because this is going to be I

5 think the first listing of the material

6 through the public comment is going to give

7 the subcommittee working on those sunset

8 reviews the highest level of ability of

9 information to be able to come back then to

10 the full Board and then the community and the

11 stakeholders for discussion at this -- like

12 for these four materials at this type of a

13 meeting, the first round.

14 So, I think we got -- on gellan

15 gum I think we got some pretty good feedback

16 yesterday from several different sources.

17 I think one of the comments that I

18 think stood out for me, and this goes back to

19 my first meeting on the NOSB in Albuquerque.

20 And the review material that I got

21 back then and this is a possible material that

22 sounds like some of the handlers are beginning
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1 to use as a replacement for carrageenan. So

2 it shows that the system's working.

3 It also shows that the industry

4 and the stakeholders are listening to what

5 takes place at these meetings. So it helps

6 just to reinforce that the process is working

7 if we help it and we give it the time and the

8 ability to move forward.

9 CHAIR STONE: Okay, any other

10 discussion? Thank you. Next up?

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: Next up will be

12 Joe again with tragacanth gum.

13 MEMBER DICKSON: Thank you,

14 Harold. Tragacanth gum is up for sunset on

15 205.606 as a non-organic agricultural

16 ingredient.

17 Of course, most of the discussion

18 among the committee and the Board when it was

19 originally listed centered around its

20 commercial availability in organic form.

21 It is an exudate gum which is a

22 category of gums that are minimally processed
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1 and basically a sap that is extracted directly

2 from the tree.

3 At the time of its listing the

4 Board looked at the reasons for this material

5 not being commercially available in organic

6 form.

7 There was discussion that it was

8 primarily cultivated in the Middle East

9 particularly and Iran, and international trade

10 issues had limited the availability of the

11 supply.

12 At the time it was noted that

13 Turkey was increasing its production of

14 conventional tragacanth gum and also its

15 organic production.

16 We have scoured the ingredient

17 market and the whole internet and everywhere

18 you might buy a gum and we were unable to find

19 any evidence of organic gum tragacanth being

20 available.

21 However, a few commenters did

22 raise the question of whether gum Arabic,
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1 which is now available in organic form, would

2 serve as a suitable replacement for this

3 material.

4 That is a question I believe would

5 be well answered by the current users of the

6 material. I know that there is at least one

7 candy product and one sauce on the market

8 right now using this in its conventional form.

9 QAI which I believe is the

10 certifier for one or both of those companies

11 did confirm that it's still in use. But our

12 hope is that we are able to hear directly from

13 those manufacturers as to whether gum Arabic

14 is a suitable substitute and whether there is

15 an organic form of this available and its

16 ongoing necessity.

17 That really sums up gum

18 tragacanth.

19 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: So, how would we

21 do that? I think you're raising good

22 questions about getting information back from
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1 the community on alternatives or essentiality.

2 And you've already gotten some from QAI.

3 But the presumption is -- I mean,

4 to me just hearing that doesn't sound like

5 sufficient evidence of essentiality. We

6 obviously have to maybe contact those folks

7 and find out if the alternative would work.

8 But that's presumably going to

9 happen between now and the next Board meeting.

10 So, I guess if we publish -- if the

11 subcommittee publishes something prior to the

12 next Board meeting any new information that

13 comes in as a result of that publication would

14 be considered untimely and would have to --

15 and if that were to influence the thinking of

16 the subcommittee would have to go back to the

17 subcommittee. Is there sufficient time to do

18 that on a -- these are 2015 right? Sunsets.

19 CHAIR STONE: Yes, they are 2015.

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. So I'm

21 just -- I mean, this is a classic example

22 where getting essentiality information has
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1 always been a tough thing for the Board. And

2 the best essentiality information seems to

3 come in during the course of generating public

4 comments.

5 So, I suspect if the past is any

6 indication of the future that we'll get some

7 at least substantive comments after the

8 publication of the subcommittee proposal for

9 the fall meeting.

10 MEMBER DICKSON: Is your question

11 will it be too late at that point to take

12 action on that and change this recommendation?

13 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

14 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes, that's a

15 good question.

16 CHAIR STONE: Miles.

17 MR. MCEVOY: Well, if you have the

18 proposal, if the subcommittee comes with a

19 proposal to remove then that proposal would be

20 on the table for consideration at the fall

21 meeting with any new information that was

22 provided between now and the fall meeting and
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1 at the fall meeting. So that's why you may

2 want to consider having that always as a

3 possibility.

4 It also seems to be a way of

5 encouraging input because, you know, people

6 take that seriously.

7 Yes, the concept though is

8 hopefully that -- the plan is to get as much

9 information as possible at this meeting, the

10 first meeting, that then helps to supplement

11 that with additional information for the

12 second meeting.

13 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

14 MEMBER AUSTIN: Jay, that was a

15 valid point that you brought up. And I think

16 looking at this process I think that going

17 through the two-step process on sunset review

18 like we're proposing to -- we are now

19 implementing and we are now doing, I think

20 that would probably be an indicator for us as

21 for the subcommittees.

22 If we don't public comment back
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1 from either the user or certifiers or the

2 petitioner or somebody helping us to explain

3 and substantiate what the essentiality is then

4 I think then that would be the indicator for

5 the subcommittee to then take and come forward

6 with that type of a motion to de-list it.

7 And so I think that would be the

8 message to send out. Once we're getting

9 feedback on the first of the two meetings

10 about essentiality and stuff, that kind of

11 helps us to decide how to move forward or not

12 to move forward.

13 But if we're hearing nothing back

14 then I think that for me at least as the

15 Handling Subcommittee chair would trigger our

16 debate in the Handling Subcommittee that we

17 would want to move forward with a motion to

18 de-list for the fall meeting, or for the

19 second meeting.

20 CHAIR STONE: Carmela?

21 MEMBER BECK: Yes, in my

22 experience we've historically relied very
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1 heavily on our certifier to provide us

2 notifications about possible de-listings or

3 things that we're talking about right now.

4 And so I think that from this time

5 until the fall we could expect that certifiers

6 would be the ones that might carry this and

7 might help generate more information to come

8 our way. And I'm not sure how that comes our

9 way but so that it's not all in the fall at

10 the public comment period. So, I don't know.

11 CHAIR STONE: And Scott and Pat,

12 you may want to know the numbers are going to

13 get quite big in the next year or so.

14 Anything else on this material?

15 All right, thank you much. Harold?

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: All right, the

17 third of our four materials, marsala. And our

18 lead on that is Tracy.

19 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Harold.

20 Marsala or a fortified cooking line was

21 originally petitioned in 2007 for addition to

22 205.606 because it was considered a unique
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1 flavor ingredient and was not commercially

2 available as organic. This is for

3 agricultural non-organic.

4 The use of marsala in organic

5 products actually, after doing some informal

6 research this applies almost equally between

7 marsala and sherry which will be coming up

8 next.

9 There was one particular

10 petitioner that requested the ingredient or

11 the material and doing some digging around we

12 actually couldn't find that original

13 petitioner.

14 I do understand since then that

15 they're still in business but we haven't been

16 able to actually get anybody to give us any

17 feedback in regards to whether this material

18 is still in use, whether there's still a need

19 for it.

20 So, the initial proposal coming

21 back from the initial analysis from the

22 Handling Committee is that we would be
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1 considering de-listing. So we brought it

2 forth as part of the new sunset process to

3 basically make that statement and request

4 input.

5 The feedback on both marsala and

6 sherry was generally that because it can be

7 produced organically it should be removed as

8 agricultural non-organic.

9 And as part of our research on

10 these two materials we've talked to a producer

11 who says it is possible to produce it and he's

12 probably been requested information about

13 production of organic marsala. But generally

14 he is not producing it because there's not a

15 demand for it.

16 And so it's a little bit of a

17 chicken and the egg. It's hard for us to

18 determine essentiality. It doesn't appear to

19 be essentially in use or not in significant

20 amounts. Even the original petitioner is

21 difficult to find and track down. So for that

22 reason we would recommend the de-listing.
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1 Generally the public comments were

2 along the lines like I said of it's not

3 organic. It can be produced organically which

4 we have verified it can and should be de5 listed. Thank you.

6 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Tracy.

7 Questions? Comments? Harold?

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes. One of the

9 things I think to point out to the full Board

10 is with this first listing because we did have

11 questions with marsala and then with sherry as

12 Tracy will get into in just a moment, this was

13 an opportunity for the subcommittee to reach

14 out to the industry and the stakeholders and

15 the users to ask very specific questions.

16 And if you notice on marsala and

17 sherry we did have three specific questions

18 looking for stakeholder input and feedback.

19 The first one was the Handling

20 Subcommittee request that the public provide

21 comment regarding commercial demand for

22 marsala in organic comments and provide
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1 comments on the impact that removing it from

2 205.606 would have on the organic business or

3 organic products.

4 The second question was has the

5 industry attempted to locate organic sources

6 of marsala and with what degree of success.

7 And then the third, are there

8 other ingredients with suitable flavor

9 profiles that would -- could be used in place

10 of marsala given adequate transition time for

11 the ingredient inventory and label depletion.

12 We got very, very little feedback

13 if any at all as Tracy has alluded to. So I

14 think this is a good example where this is

15 probably a sunset material that the

16 subcommittee will move forward with a

17 recommendation to de-list come the fall.

18 CHAIR STONE: Proceed.

19 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay, our fourth

20 and final material is sherry. Tracy, you're

21 up to bat again.

22 MEMBER FAVRE: Well, same song,
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1 second verse. Sherry being agricultural non2 organic, same issues. It's a fortified

3 cooking wine. Again, originally petitioned

4 for its unique flavor profile.

5 It was the same petitioner as for

6 marsala, same investigation, same results

7 essentially.

8 We did get some public comment

9 along the lines from a couple of the

10 certifiers that they think they may have a

11 couple of clients who have this material in

12 use.

13 And that -- but they aren't sure.

14 Again, there doesn't seem to be a huge demand.

15 Certainly there was no hue and outcry when we

16 put it out there for feedback as to whether or

17 not there was going to be an issue.

18 And maybe with the second

19 opportunity we'll get some feedback,

20 particularly if they hear from this meeting

21 that we are heavily leaning towards de22 listing.
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1 And the same three questions apply

2 that Harold read off. My apologies for not

3 catching those first go-around with the new

4 process. But anyway.

5 And particularly the original

6 justification being the unique flavor profile.

7 If it's not being used and it's available

8 organically but not in demand there's really

9 no reason to leave it on the National List.

10 Thank you.

11 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Any follow12 up? Committee members? Non-committee

13 members? Subcommittee? Nick?

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, in the

15 interest of levity I'd like to make a full

16 disclosure here that I use marsala and sherry

17 in the non-organic form for a beef liver pate

18 which I use as a lead-in with restaurant

19 chefs.

20 And many of whom would like me to

21 produce that commercially which I am not

22 doing.
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1 But after half a bottle -- I mean,

2 a tureen of that I've got them eating out of

3 my hand. They just love it.

4 So, I may in the future have an

5 interest in marsala and sherry. But I thought

6 I would just indicate that for full

7 disclosure.

8 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Jay?

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: Could the

10 gentleman from Maryland please explain why

11 he's not using organic forms of marsala and

12 sherry?

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: I can't find

14 them.

15 CHAIR STONE: Tracy?

16 MEMBER FAVRE: I would only like

17 to remark that your comments officially on the

18 record along those lines might have been

19 helpful in our discussions. Thank you very

20 much.

21 (Laughter)

22 CHAIR STONE: Joe?
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1 MEMBER DICKSON: Tracy, when you

2 say that -- I guess this is more on the

3 marsala, but you also have it on sherry.

4 When you're talking about there

5 potentially being organic forms available are

6 you talking made with organic grapes but with

7 added sulfites? Or organic no-sulfite

8 versions?

9 MEMBER FAVRE: The indication that

10 we received. Now, obviously this could be and

11 should be and might be rather than is at the

12 moment. But the indications are that it would

13 be made with organic grapes without added

14 sulfites.

15 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Joe, you

16 still look perplexed?

17 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes, I am

18 perplexed. Because then how would that impact

19 its -- the argument for it going off of --

20 being available in a made with organic form

21 isn't the same as it being available in

22 organic form. I guess is my perplexion.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Well, we're glad we

2 aired that out at the first meeting here.

3 Harold, are we good?

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: Mac, that's all we

5 have for the Handling Subcommittee.

6 CHAIR STONE: All right. Thank

7 you all, that's great work.

8 And I just want to add a brief

9 comment that obviously many folks in the

10 broader community are bothered or concerned

11 about the change in the sunset process. We

12 hear stories about calling your legislator and

13 calling lawyers and all sorts of things.

14 But this group has a

15 responsibility to work with this new process

16 and make it work the best we can. So, not

17 only I but each of these Board members is

18 seeking your all's help in making this process

19 work, helping us make the process work to

20 provide the best service that we can to the

21 individuals, those 25,000 certified operations

22 around the world that depend on us for this
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1 process to work.

2 And frankly, really reaching out

3 to you all to help us communicate and shorten

4 that divide of our work and your all's need.

5 So, please, and thank you for helping us get

6 our work done.

7 So with that we'll take a little

8 break. I've got 3:51 so let's say 10 after 4.

9 Thank you.

10 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

11 went off the record at 3:51 p.m. and went back

12 on the record at 4:13 p.m.)

13 CHAIR STONE: Okay, it looks like

14 most of the Board is here pretty much. We've

15 got some of the program here to make sure we

16 don't cross any lines, get out of our lane.

17 So at this point it's the

18 Materials Subcommittee. I'll turn it over to

19 the chair, Mr. C. Reuben Walker.

20 SECRETARY WALKER: Thank you, Mr.

21 Chair. We have four topics. First will be

22 update of the petition and technical review
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1 process which will be led by Zea.

2 Next we will have confidential

3 business information and petitions, CBI, by

4 the trumpeter, Dr. Thicke, Francis Thicke.

5 And John -- Dr. Thicke. The third

6 proposal will be the fall 2013 research

7 priorities. I will be giving that one. It

8 was originally assigned to Zea but we know

9 that Zea has a full plate on a lot of these

10 subcommittees. So, a couple of weeks ago we

11 wanted to lighten her workload since she made

12 that request.

13 And Dr. Taylor, Jennifer was in

14 France. And I ended up getting stuck in

15 presenting this.

16 The same thing happened with

17 George Bush, Jr., the younger one. Dick

18 Cheney was the person over the VP search

19 committee and he could not come up with a VP

20 candidate. So Bush told him you're the one.

21 So that's how Dick Cheney ended up being the

22 Vice President for George Bush 43.
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1 And the last report will be given

2 by Zea. It will be a written report on seed

3 purity and GMO. And we'll start out with Zea.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you,

5 Calvin. I just realized here that on the

6 agenda for the Louisville meeting that was

7 canceled I had requested that Michelle switch

8 the order so that at least when we vote we

9 need to vote on confidential business

10 information first before we vote on updating

11 the petition and process.

12 And so we need -- I'll talk about

13 this one now but when we vote we have to vote

14 CBI first because it affects what happens in

15 this proposal.

16 So anyway, the NOP asked us to

17 take up the issue of updating the petition and

18 technical review process.

19 We did that. We posted the

20 document in the fall 2013 and again this time

21 without changing it.

22 We -- language was outdated in
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1 there and there was a need to take a look at

2 and modernize a bunch of the language. Now,

3 even though there is a relatively recent

4 change to have the Department be in charge of

5 the policy manual, that change happened too

6 late for us to reconsider this document. But

7 essentially we're just -- the two parts, one

8 of which are what will be in a Federal

9 Register notice for petitions and the other

10 part is the policies and procedures manual and

11 they mirror each other. So really we are only

12 voting -- probably voting the first part

13 because whatever happens from the first part

14 will end up in whatever the policy and

15 procedures manual is.

16 We received very little public

17 comment on any of the things other than the

18 CBI portion which we'll cover in a minute.

19 Most people were favorable that

20 did comment, especially in the fall we got a

21 couple of comments with people who just said

22 yes, these are good changes.
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1 A particular one to highlight is

2 that we streamlined the process for if you

3 just want a petition to change an annotation

4 so that you don't have to answer all 12 or 13

5 questions, you just need to answer certain

6 ones of them, about half of them or even a

7 little less than half of them in order to

8 change an annotation.

9 We also did add questions about

10 ancillary substances when people are

11 petitioning handling ingredients so that those

12 come in at the same time hopefully to the

13 extent possible. At least for that one

14 petitioner.

15 But we do recognize that any

16 petitioned generic substance may have other

17 formulators who use other ancillary

18 substances. And we'll still have to do work

19 on finding out what those are.

20 So, I think that is pretty

21 explanatory. If anyone has questions on this

22 I guess we'll take them now and then we'll
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1 talk about CBI and vote on that.

2 CHAIR STONE: Okay, are there

3 questions or clarifications for Zea or others

4 in the committee? Jay?

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you, Zea,

6 for your work on this.

7 So in terms of the process we're

8 not amending the PPM at this point. Do we

9 have concurrence with the program that the

10 changes that are being proposed here are

11 acceptable?

12 CHAIR STONE: You have to say

13 something, not just nod.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Before we

15 posted it in the fall 2013 the Department had

16 agreed to it, yes.

17 MR. MCEVOY: Yes.

18 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you.

19 CHAIR STONE: Any other thoughts?

20 Questions? And I guess we've kind of got to

21 tie this into the other one like you said.

22 Okay, let's proceed.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'm not the

2 lead on CBI.

3 SECRETARY WALKER: Okay, next we

4 have Francis, CBI.

5 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. And I may

6 need some help here because the CBI thing

7 started before I got on the Board. And I'm

8 summarizing the comments and the petition on

9 the proposal as I see it. Maybe -- if I don't

10 do it all maybe Zea can help me out.

11 Basically the proposal is that

12 there are two possible recommendations. One

13 is that CBI not be allowed at all in

14 petitions. And the second one is that CBI be

15 allowed and it outlines the responsibilities

16 of the various stakeholders, of the NOP, the

17 petitioners and NOSB.

18 And the subcommittee voted for

19 number one, that no CBI be allowed 7 to zero.

20 Now, just to clarify that. That

21 doesn't mean that the petitioners have to give

22 their exact recipes of such. But we need to
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1 have enough information to know -- to be able

2 to evaluate the materials and to see what

3 effect they may have on health, human health

4 or the environment. So that's an important

5 distinction to keep in mind.

6 And as far as the comments go,

7 there were comments both last fall and this

8 year and a total of about 11 between the two

9 times. And there may be a few more in favor

10 of the position of the subcommittee of no CBI.

11 However, Hain Celestial and OTA

12 had strong objections to that, thinking that

13 there needs to be some CBI to allow keeping

14 proprietary information private. So that's

15 the basics.

16 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Do others on

17 the committee want to add anything or clarify

18 that point? Zea?

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes. As a

20 person who's read a lot of petitions and a lot

21 of TRs it just keeps coming up time and time

22 again specifically about manufacturing
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1 processes. How can you tell if something is

2 synthetic or non-synthetic without knowing the

3 manufacturing process?

4 And times when we have turned this

5 over to the TR contractor because it was CBI

6 and they could look at it and we wouldn't look

7 at it, they don't really have the best track

8 record of getting what we mean when we say

9 synthetic or non-synthetic.

10 And for instance, vinasse we had

11 to send back like three times before they even

12 understood what distinction we were trying to

13 make between synthetic and non-synthetic.

14 And so I just keep asking myself

15 the question of can I trust what a TR says

16 based on CBI and whether it's synthetic or

17 non-synthetic. And I had to say to myself no,

18 I cannot trust that.

19 However, I do feel that this does

20 not mean that companies have to turn in all

21 their confidential formulas and confidential

22 recipes. You can just leave it out of the
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1 petition and only turn in, you know, saying

2 things like this patent covers things that are

3 in our manufacturing process and give the

4 patent reference number and leave the exact

5 formula out.

6 And if what the patent says is

7 true and can be verified by the TR then that

8 covers it.

9 But I do feel that we need to be

10 able to know whether things are made with a

11 synthetic or a non-synthetic process. And I

12 believe the Department feels the same because

13 they asked us to consider this opinion in the

14 first place.

15 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Questions?

16 Thoughts? Lisa?

17 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Mac. Yes, we

18 agree with Zea that we do support the proposal

19 to eliminate the CBI option. It's been a

20 problem periodically with certain petitions

21 even when those petitions meet the guidelines

22 in the current petition guidelines.
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1 So we think that eliminating this

2 option will alleviate the NOP's need to manage

3 that information.

4 The CBI information that does get

5 submitted to the program really doesn't seem

6 to be serving any practical purpose and it's

7 not available to the Board or the public. So,

8 just in the interest of transparency we'd like

9 to see that option removed from the petition

10 process. Thanks.

11 CHAIR STONE: Miles?

12 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, I just want to

13 add to that that, yes, it's been difficult to

14 manage. We have petitioners that have

15 submitted CBI to us and believe that because

16 they do that that somehow we're going to be

17 able to make a determination.

18 Just, it's not for us to make the

19 determination on the petition. It's for the

20 Board to make that determination. So it puts

21 -- it's a very awkward position. And the

22 spirit of organics is to have this open to the
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1 public and to have a transparent process. So

2 it seems like keeping that information

3 confidential is just not meeting the needs of

4 the program or the public for full disclosure

5 of the substances that are being considered

6 for listing on the National List.

7 CHAIR STONE: John.

8 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I'm not on the

9 Materials Subcommittee. Could you

10 characterize the discussion around what you

11 expect, if any, impact to be on submission

12 petitions if there is no CBI anymore? Was

13 that part of the discussion? And if so, how

14 would you characterize it?

15 CHAIR STONE: Zea? Yes, please,

16 Zea.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'm sure it

18 probably will make the amount of petitions go

19 down but I'm not sure how much lower it will

20 than other factors in the organic community

21 that are making petitions go way down.

22 But it's just -- once again, I
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1 just feel like we have to be able to determine

2 the process in order to evaluate the petition.

3 I will say just as a for instance

4 a couple of meetings ago we reviewed lutein.

5 And lutein -- I might not be saying it right,

6 but it's made from marigolds originally.

7 And it is one thing I was really,

8 really on the fence about. And this actual

9 process with CBI. And if they had told the

10 actual process so I actually knew this --

11 could determine that the steps from marigold

12 to lutein seemed compatible that would have

13 made me vote for it.

14 But I voted against it because I

15 didn't have the confidence that the TR that

16 was done on it or the information provided by

17 the manufacturer was sufficient for me to make

18 that determination.

19 CHAIR STONE: John.

20 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: So, I get

21 that. We've had that conversation, you and I,

22 before.
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1 I'm interested in the conversation

2 that might have happened in the subcommittee

3 context. I'm assuming it did, and if it did

4 kind of what was the committee's kind of, you

5 know, characterization about that.

6 CHAIR STONE: Francis.

7 MEMBER THICKE: Just the one piece

8 that I'm more familiar with is that more often

9 I've heard that those with CBI get turned down

10 anyway. And so it's like it's a waste of

11 effort and time for the petitioner and the

12 Board. And so -- because such a high majority

13 get turned down with CBI.

14 CHAIR STONE: Anything else?

15 Anybody else? Okay, thank you. Oh, Harold,

16 I'm sorry.

17 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes. You know, I

18 guess kind of along the lines where John's at

19 it's been difficult as we review some of the

20 petitions that do get submitted.

21 Because you'll get -- I've got one

22 I'm working on right now and it's probably got
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1 four or five pages of CBI information

2 redacted. So, I mean you've got like nine

3 pages, there's four or five of them that are

4 just, they're blacked out. So, it does make

5 it difficult on some petitions.

6 But I'm also a little bit

7 concerned about where we take the process and

8 the dialogue we have with those people that

9 might in the future be wanting to submit a

10 petition and what flexibility do we give them

11 or allow them to protect their investment but

12 yet provide us with enough information to make

13 a solid determination.

14 And I think that's kind of where I

15 think John and myself as well were wondering

16 if that type of dialogue had taken place

17 within the subcommittee to talk about those

18 issues and how to move forward.

19 And I know you probably did by

20 that but just kind of like hearing some of

21 that information back from you guys I think

22 would help the rest of us on the Board
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1 depending on how we want to look at this.

2 CHAIR STONE: Jay.

3 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, this is not

4 a new discussion. I mean, the previous

5 Materials Committee had discussed this in

6 preparation for the Louisville meeting that

7 didn't happen. So we're talking about over at

8 least a year or more than that.

9 And I can tell you that when I was

10 on the Materials Committee we discussed this.

11 We discussed it with the program.

12 We did recognize that, first of

13 all, the business community is used to

14 producing product and utilizing protection

15 under proprietary information protection in

16 different statutes. I mean, pesticide

17 manufacturers get that protection.

18 And so what Miles describes which

19 is a commitment to transparency is unique as

20 are other provisions or other means of doing

21 business is unique to this law and the way

22 it's implemented. So we recognize that that
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1 was a part of the discussion.

2 I think it will take some

3 manufacturers some getting used to. And a lot

4 will reject that notion that they can subject

5 what they have traditionally viewed as

6 proprietary information to the public arena.

7 We have found in our organization

8 that many of the claims of proprietary

9 information are, you know, especially when it

10 comes to ingredient materials, or those

11 materials used in an extraction process, or

12 whatever they're claiming as proprietary to

13 the manufacturing is really understood by

14 their competitors.

15 You know, these are often ways in

16 which manufacturers try to claim a uniqueness

17 in the market. But to their competitors what

18 they're doing is pretty well understood. I'm

19 not saying that's always the case, but it's

20 very often the case.

21 So, the upside at least in the

22 discussions we had when I was on the Materials
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1 Subcommittee, the upside of maintaining a

2 commitment to transparency, providing the

3 Board all the information it needed to comply

4 with the statute and generate sufficient

5 information to make informed decisions, all of

6 that outweighed what was -- what we understand

7 to be the downside which, John, you've

8 obviously identified as a potential downside.

9 I would say that over the long

10 term if this doesn't work out and somehow

11 people can identify where this is impeding the

12 growth of organic, you know, or the organic

13 brand then, you know, we would have to revisit

14 this with the program. And maybe it will be

15 a little bit difficult but establish a

16 mechanism for protecting that data, protecting

17 that information.

18 But the other element to all of

19 this is that, and I'm not sure how it

20 intersects, exactly, but we're dealing with

21 generic materials. We're not dealing with

22 brand name materials. So, I think the subset
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1 that we're dealing with may be smaller than we

2 typically see in the industry.

3 So that's the experience -- I'm

4 just trying to explain the experience that I

5 had as a part. It was thoroughly debated. We

6 had a lot of input from the program, feedback,

7 and you know, didn't come to this decision

8 lightly.

9 CHAIR STONE: Calvin?

10 SECRETARY WALKER: I would like to

11 share some of the concerns that John and

12 Harold had talked about and how I was able to

13 get over it.

14 In 2004 I was fortunate enough to

15 get a patent. And sometimes when you do write

16 grants or review them, they write back and ask

17 for more detail.

18 And my first inclination is I

19 don't really want to tell you all about my

20 rinse process other than what's in the patent.

21 Because when you write patents you tend to

22 write it broad enough to give you broad
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1 coverage to keep someone else from patenting

2 over your patent.

3 So, but the way the committee

4 handled CBI, Zea and the others, I would feel

5 comfortable if a program was asking me for a

6 little bit more information to make a decision

7 about my product to be used.

8 But certainly I would have some

9 questions. I wouldn't just say straight up

10 yes. I would have some additional questions

11 to ask them before I divulge anything that I

12 thought that the reviewers were looking at it.

13 And we do know that reviewers are

14 not always tight-lipped. And I've seen it

15 happen. You know, people divulge your patent

16 to their colleagues. So it is a problem.

17 But I think Zea said it. Some of

18 the individuals may not file a petition but I

19 think that the process that we have outlined,

20 I think it would be okay for most people who

21 are trying to conceal their trade secrets from

22 the public.
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1 CHAIR STONE: John?

2 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I'll use this

3 to kind of finish my thought.

4 My biggest concern is that -- I

5 guess it's mostly in handling materials,

6 generic ones, is that in the attempt to try

7 and develop less objectionable synthetics,

8 say, or non-synthetic versions of things that

9 are now on the list as synthetic I'm guessing

10 it will become increasingly popular as the

11 marketplace expands for companies to want to

12 develop those kinds of products.

13 And I think the nature of the

14 business is that there's going to be more

15 interesting and more esoteric methods used to

16 create those novel products.

17 And what I don't want to do is

18 establish a means that we could get better

19 products on the National List, or even natural

20 versions of things on the National List right

21 now. Because I think developing those is

22 going to require some really interesting
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1 technology and processes. A lot of those are

2 going to want to be tightly held.

3 So my concern isn't so much about

4 growing the National List. It's finding

5 better alternatives to things that are already

6 there. That's my biggest concern.

7 So, I mean, if obviously the will

8 of the Board is to move this way that's, you

9 know, I get it. But I hope we have kind of

10 our sights on the right things, or at least I

11 think we do, is finding better things than we

12 have right now.

13 And as long as we're not impeding

14 that evolution I'm fine. But I wanted to get

15 that out there. That's my intent.

16 CHAIR STONE: Zea.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: I do share that

18 concern, John. And I just think one of the

19 impacts of this hopefully will be that

20 companies who want a petition will think of

21 creative ways to put in their petition with

22 information that is sufficient for us to make
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1 our determination.

2 Like, there's nothing wrong with

3 them saying I make my stuff by putting it

4 through a hydrolysis process with an enzyme

5 followed by a centrifuge, followed by a

6 fermentation process. And all of these

7 processes are natural, but I don't want to

8 give you my exact recipe.

9 And if that can then be verified

10 by a TR then that could be a non-synthetic

11 process and they've disclosed what they can

12 without disclosing everything that's

13 proprietary.

14 And that being said, I also want

15 to make it clear that much as it's really

16 annoying to do this for sunset I have no

17 intention of asking for the CBI to be

18 eliminated retroactively to the things that

19 have already been reviewed.

20 That has come up a few times in

21 the public comments but I just think those

22 people joined the list on one set of rules and
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1 those rules hold for them now that they're on

2 the list.

3 CHAIR STONE: So, I have a

4 question I guess for Lisa. So, how -- the

5 redaction happens at your desk? Or how do you

6 know what to redact? Or where does CBI get

7 redacted?

8 DR. BRINES: Yes, as part of the

9 petition guidelines it requires petitioners

10 with CBI to submit two different versions of

11 the petition. So the first version has the

12 full information. The second copy of the

13 petition, the petitioner has redacted that

14 information such that it's supposed to be sort

15 of a carbon copy of the first version but just

16 with the removals. So we verify that the

17 information that's redacted meets the

18 guidelines for removing that information.

19 Oftentimes when petitions are

20 determined to be incomplete it's because that

21 specific provision of the petition guidelines

22 has not been met. So it does create some
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1 administrative -- it's a little bit time2 consuming sometimes because petitioners don't

3 always interpret that section correctly.

4 CHAIR STONE: And the TR

5 contractors have the same confidentiality that

6 you all have obviously. It's just when it

7 comes into our public realm that it loses the

8 control of that confidential.

9 DR. BRINES: Yes, that's right.

10 We are able to send the confidential

11 information to the contractor.

12 However, the contractor can't

13 provide that information within the content of

14 the report. So they can verify some things

15 but it's of limited value even with that

16 option.

17 CHAIR STONE: So, the contractor

18 gets both versions as well.

19 DR. BRINES: We usually will start

20 by sending them a link to the version that's

21 redacted. If they need more information we

22 can supply them with the confidential business
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1 information.

2 CHAIR STONE: Okay, thanks.

3 Harold?

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: Would it then be

5 possible to get a list of the problematic

6 types of scenarios that the various

7 subcommittees as we review these materials

8 experience and then work a little bit more in

9 detail with the contractors that are doing the

10 TRs for us so that they can spend a little bit

11 more time and energy to try to help wade

12 through the weeds and pull that information,

13 frame it a little bit better to where we've

14 got a more clearer and better understanding of

15 the information that's being presented to us.

16 Rather than go through a full removal of CBI.

17 DR. BRINES: Yes, I think I see

18 your point. I don't think that that would be

19 the easiest solution to this problem.

20 I do think there is some burden on

21 the petitioner who's submitting that

22 information to disclose as much information as
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1 they can.

2 A lot of times the information

3 that is redacted is manufacturing information.

4 Oftentimes they're re-purposing manufacturing

5 information that was developed for another

6 purpose.

7 It does have a level of detail

8 that really is above and beyond what the Board

9 generally needs to be able to make a

10 classification decision or to evaluate the

11 manufacturing process.

12 So I think oftentimes it's

13 certainly possible to rephrase the

14 manufacturing process in a way that describes

15 it accurately and precisely to a general

16 audience without the level of detail that they

17 generally include.

18 CHAIR STONE: Zea.

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: You know, like

20 I said, I've read a lot of petitions and TRs.

21 And the most egregious example I

22 have to say, and I'm not going to name the
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1 material because I can't even remember what it

2 was, but we have one material on our list that

3 not only was the manufacturing process

4 redacted but I think it's question 4 where

5 they ask for the effects on human health --

6 human health effects from handling the

7 material.

8 The entire question 4 was

9 redacted. It said we have done studies on the

10 effects of human health, black black black

11 black. Blacked out for page after page after

12 page.

13 So they sent it to the TR and the

14 TR says yes, from the information provided by

15 the manufacturer there seem to be no effects

16 on human health. But with no outside

17 verification other than that. And not telling

18 us what studies were done.

19 So, how can you make a decision on

20 that? But a former NOSB apparently did.

21 CHAIR STONE: Okay. I think that

22 was a good discussion. We got a little more
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1 background to how we got to where we are I

2 guess.

3 Anything else there? No redacted

4 comments in getting us to where we are? Okay.

5 Okay.

6 Calvin, next up?

7 SECRETARY WALKER: Next up would

8 be research priorities. This will be very

9 quick. Jennifer, if you were here you would

10 be doing this one but you were in France so

11 you're fortunate.

12 This was sent out to the public.

13 So it's placing on the PowerPoint. And it's

14 probably of little use. You can't see it

15 here. So I can at least read it.

16 This was what was sent out to the

17 public that I believe 11 stakeholders

18 responded to. A recommendation for -- let me

19 just read it here.

20 As the introduction to what all of

21 you that responded had a chance to see, one

22 was a recommendation for a framework to set
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1 resource priorities and was approved by the

2 NOSB in May of 2012.

3 A part of the recommendation was

4 to bring these -- do these priorities and

5 deliberations and bring them back up at our

6 fall meeting.

7 Three, I believe this was done by

8 Zea and Jennifer that was handling this in

9 those years. It was that each subcommittee

10 was asked to give research priorities that

11 they thought was needed for the things that

12 they were dealing with. And these were

13 actually submitted to the public for comment.

14 And some of the priorities for

15 2013 was whole farm systems, alternatives for

16 antibiotics including tetracycline,

17 streptomycin for fire blight, evaluation of

18 genetically modified vaccines, methionine

19 alternatives, aquatic biodiversity, herd

20 health, and so forth and so on.

21 What was not added, and this was

22 taken from what was put out to the public for
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1 commenting. The Livestock Committee and the

2 Crop Committee inadvertently submitted their

3 recommendations a little late and there were

4 five items that want -- was chlorine

5 alternatives, sulfuric acid alternatives,

6 parasitism, mastitis and pneumonia.

7 What the subcommittee did, we

8 voted on these. The motion was by Zea, second

9 by Tracy and the vote was 5 to zero and two

10 members of the subcommittee was absent.

11 Again, I apologize for the table.

12 Public comment. For the fall there was 11 and

13 100 percent supported the work done by Zea and

14 Jennifer in leading this particular document.

15 What was interesting that I

16 counted was that 89 percent not only said what

17 was shared with them was okay, but 89 percent

18 offered additional recommendations. I thought

19 that was good, that the public weigh in and

20 say what you have, we like that, but here's

21 some of our recommendations. So I thought

22 that that was a good way, Mac, to engage the
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1 public.

2 In the spring of 2014 there was 10

3 commenters. The research priorities by this

4 Board are all approved. And 80 percent

5 offered additional comments.

6 And this is where it goes into --

7 we always say as a Board it is good to read

8 the comments from the public. So we want the

9 public to know that what you write and spend

10 time on, we read it. We may not be able to

11 respond to all of it but we do read for

12 thousands or hundreds of pages.

13 Some of the entities that gave a

14 response was OTA, the Organic Producers

15 Wholesalers Coalition, Organic Seed Alliance,

16 Consumers Union, Organic Center, Cornucopia,

17 Beyond Pesticides, Center for Food Safety, and

18 CCOF.

19 I'm just going to highlight a

20 couple of from each of these organizations

21 because they're taking time to write them and

22 send them in so I think we should take time to
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1 at least share with the rest of the Board what

2 was said.

3 OTA which I thought was good as we

4 talk about land grant. And it kind of ties

5 into what Mark had mentioned.

6 OTA had said that research on seed

7 quality should precede the determination of

8 best stewardship practice. Education and

9 outreach should be about these defined

10 stewardship practices.

11 And for those of us who work at

12 land grants, we know that research is not good

13 just for research only. It needs to be a

14 nexus to that. And that nexus is education

15 and extension or which we call outreach. So

16 I thought that that was good. So, that was

17 one that was suggested by OTA.

18 Another one was that as we look at

19 the issue of seed purity, and we are finding

20 out today in talking to fellow Board members

21 over lunch what happened today to get the

22 feedback from the public that's so great is
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1 that it was suggested that maybe a group of

2 seed experts may be convened by NOSB at the

3 next meeting. Maybe for a 30- or a 40-minute

4 presentation. A dialogue on the next step

5 with seed purity.

6 Going to the Organic Producers

7 Wholesalers Coalition, three things. They

8 gave four but for the sake of time. One they

9 wanted to know was research to be done on the

10 impact of consumers by organic apples', pears'

11 availability and pricing.

12 And they mentioned, I believe they

13 represent about 10 different businesses with

14 a half a billion dollars in sale. So I think

15 that when you almost have a billion dollars in

16 sales and if there's something that we can do

17 to help them see what is the next step since

18 tetracycline is out and streptomycin is on the

19 ropes, we don't know. So I think that we owe

20 it to this group to continue to look at these

21 things.

22 Another question that the Organic
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1 Producers Wholesalers Coalition wanted to see

2 was an analysis of the impact of organic

3 apples and pears production based on current

4 organic policy on antibiotics.

5 And I think Mark said something I

6 thought was nice. We should not only be

7 trying to engage NIFA but all of us come from

8 a state that has a land grant institution.

9 And they all at least have one ag economist.

10 So this could be something for an ag economist

11 to look at, at the data maybe to see how they

12 can -- it wouldn't take a lot of research

13 money.

14 Plant science research and animal

15 science research take money, but agriculture

16 economic data, there's many times it's all

17 there, you've just got to compile it.

18 Okay, next if we move right along,

19 Organic Seed Alliance. Two things here.

20 Their interest for the Materials Committee as

21 it relates to research priorities was

22 approaches from leading organic seed market
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1 demand without narrowing uniformity in our

2 fields. That was a concern that they wanted

3 to see something done about or addressed.

4 And another one was organic and

5 the seed industry collaboration to identify

6 and improve availability of germ plasm that

7 was appropriate for organic seed production.

8 And the last thing they wanted to

9 know was research done around the state of

10 contamination of organic seeds.

11 Okay, National Organic Coalition.

12 Biodegradable plastic mulch. And we heard a

13 couple of days ago about insects, black

14 soldier flies, other alternatives to deal with

15 the methionine issue.

16 Okay, Consumers Union. And one

17 thing I have noticed, that OTA, Consumers

18 Union and PCC seem to do a number of surveys.

19 And the Consumers Union offered to use their

20 expertise on matters that relates -- let me go

21 to that one here. Let me just skip to this

22 one. I made a mistake. I had Consumers Union
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1 twice. That was no bias, that was just an

2 accident.

3 (Laughter)

4 SECRETARY WALKER: Consumers Union

5 essentially said using scientifically valid

6 research methods the National Research Center

7 surveyed consumers about a wide range of

8 topics.

9 The center essentially did over

10 200 qualitative studies each year. They're

11 very independent. So essentially what

12 Consumers Union said, that they are available

13 if we need to do surveys. And I'm sure that

14 there are other organizations that have the

15 research and expertise would try to do the

16 same. But Consumers Union have offered to do

17 these surveys for us. And I thought that was

18 a very excellent gesture.

19 Okay, going back to the Organic

20 Center. Another thing that they were really

21 concerned about, I thought it was a good one,

22 was the organic control of citrus greening.
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1 And I think that's a big problem in the State

2 of Florida. So I think that when we ask

3 consumers and stakeholder groups.

4 GMO vaccines. CCOF has stated

5 that they were willing to lend their expertise

6 in helping us out. So, as we look with

7 research priorities I think as Mark and others

8 said we don't always need to go to NIFA USDA.

9 We've got state agricultural experiment

10 stations and we've got some of the

11 organizations that are being represented here

12 today have a wealth of information to help us

13 address some of these issues.

14 And the research committee knows

15 that we need to find a way to make this happen

16 because many times the research we need takes

17 20 and 30 years. So, if we set fire blight

18 today those who deal with pears' health their

19 issue is now. So by the time the research is

20 done it's too late almost. So we need to find

21 a path as a Board to how we can do research

22 priorities where it's enough time to get
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1 funding and get the research back.

2 And research for those who do not

3 know generally take 10, 15 and 20 years or

4 longer. It's not something you can always do

5 in two years or three years.

6 So, in essence that's the nature

7 of this report that I was presenting on behalf

8 of Zea and the good work that Jennifer had

9 done the year before.

10 So, as it relates to research

11 priorities these were the ones that the

12 subcommittees came up with along with yours.

13 And I would like to take to the

14 subcommittee is that for those of you who give

15 comments and offer good recommendations for

16 research priorities I hope that this

17 subcommittee would look at each one of them

18 and in some way provide a response.

19 If you're taking the time to say

20 citrus greening this should not be the end of

21 that. At the next meeting we ought to be able

22 to come back to you to say that the committee
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1 talked about it, deliberated on it and we have

2 made that a priority. And this is what we are

3 attempting to do. As opposed to just a

4 written document that goes nowhere. That's

5 it.

6 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Anybody,

7 questions, comments? And Mark handed out a

8 handout. He has taken that to Organic Working

9 Group, going deeper into USDA or broader. And

10 I think again we need to thank Mark and Miles

11 for institutionalizing the O word in the South

12 and the North building. Nick?

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: Just a minor

14 editorial correction on page 2 under

15 methionine alternative. I suggest we strike

16 the words in 205.207(5)(b) currently reads one

17 former NOSB member stated in 205.237(5)(b) et

18 cetera.

19 There's obviously been a mistake

20 there. So NOSB member is quoted in the

21 regulations.

22 CHAIR STONE: Okay, good catch.
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1 Anything else here? Okay, very good. All

2 right. Calvin, last on your list and last on

3 our day on this subcommittee, a written report

4 on seed purity and GMOs.

5 SECRETARY WALKER: This will be

6 led again by Zea.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Thank

8 you, Calvin.

9 We haven't been voting on the

10 things that are votable on this committee so

11 are we voting tomorrow on everything?

12 CHAIR STONE: I was going to ask

13 Mr. Chairman if he wanted to vote on these

14 today. We've got a little bit of time here if

15 you so choose, or we can wait till tomorrow.

16 It's up to Calvin.

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: Because this

18 report is about 10 to 15 minutes long.

19 SECRETARY WALKER: I was going to

20 defer to the person that was leading it. Do

21 they want to bring it for a vote today.

22 CHAIR STONE: Why don't you run
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1 through this and we'll see how everybody

2 feels.

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. All

4 right. So, as you all know we had a year-long

5 process talking about seed purity from GMOs.

6 The results of that so far has

7 been a report that you see posted on this

8 occasion. I'm not going to rehash the whole

9 report, but basically we had it out for public

10 comment on two occasions. We analyzed all

11 that public comment and arrived at the

12 conclusion as a committee that we could not

13 make a recommendation at this time, but that

14 we would explore all the issues raised in

15 public comment and present the public with

16 where we stood on them in hopes that the

17 public would write in with inspiration for us

18 on what the next steps should be. And to try

19 and keep this moving forward. And the whole

20 issue of GMOs front and center before the

21 Department, the public and the Secretary.

22 So, this is what we received for
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1 this meeting. This is mostly divided into the

2 same sections that the report is divided into

3 with just a few key points singled out and

4 then a little section at the end about

5 research.

6 We received 12 substantive public

7 comments. We also received a number of

8 comments of citizens who just said label GMOs

9 or no GMOs. I did not even count those but we

10 will count them because they're good for

11 ammunition in our future reports and things

12 like that. But I'm going to mostly focus on

13 the 12 of substantive.

14 And this is a lot of initials. By

15 now most of you know these groups but I will

16 name them off. And my typeface is a little

17 bit bigger than Calvin's so you should be able

18 to see most of it.

19 We got them from the National

20 Organic Coalition, the Center for Food Safety,

21 the Natural Organic Farmers Association, well

22 NOFA. Northeast. Sorry, Jean. Organic Seed
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1 Alliance, Organic Seed Growers and Organic

2 Trade Association, CCOF California Certified

3 Organic Farmers, CROPP Cooperative, and I'm

4 not going to try to what CROPP stands for.

5 Organic Produce Wholesalers Coalition, Beyond

6 Pesticides and two individuals.

7 It's not a lot bigger than

8 Calvin's but a little bit.

9 Okay, key points. And I've

10 divided these into shared responsibility and

11 achievability.

12 In our letter to the Secretary

13 that we sent a couple of years ago we -- our

14 main point was that the issue of GMOs had to

15 be a shared responsibility between organic

16 farmers and conventional farmers, and that

17 organic farmers would do everything in their

18 power to keep GMOs out of their production.

19 And we would certainly hope that

20 conventional farmers and the makers of the

21 pollution technology would do the same, keep

22 things on their side of the fence. So this is
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1 one step in that trajectory of showing that we

2 are doing our share.

3 It was pointed out by several

4 commenters including Beyond Pesticides while

5 a seed purity standard is reasonable it's not

6 reasonable to impose a standard in the absence

7 of a comprehensive program both within organic

8 agriculture and agriculture as practiced by

9 those using genetic engineered varieties to

10 prevent contamination of organic crops by

11 genetically engineered crops, and to fine

12 those responsible for the contamination.

13 We got -- now, I am singling out

14 key comments here in these 12 comments, but

15 several commenters would tend to be a bit

16 redundant so I'm not repeating every single

17 one.

18 CFS and NOC said something very

19 similar as did OTA, that we need to have a

20 more comprehensive guidance on best practices.

21 We were thinking of this at the

22 same time our public was and so we have put in
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1 the proposal and received the mandate from the

2 NOP to work on organic prevention guidance

3 practices.

4 And we can only hope that the

5 other side of the USDA, the conventional side,

6 is doing the same and looking at prevention

7 guidance for conventional farmers to keep

8 their GMOs in their fields. So this is a key

9 point.

10 The second key point is a number

11 of our commenters felt that this is achievable

12 in the end, that a seed purity standard is

13 achievable.

14 CROPP said we support the

15 statement that change can only happen by

16 speaking out and thank you for speaking out.

17 You're welcome.

18 (Laughter)

19 MEMBER SONNABEND: OTA strongly

20 encourages the Materials Committee to keep the

21 discussion alive and take action now to keep

22 GMOs out of organic agriculture.
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1 A seed purity standard if properly

2 established would protect rather than burden

3 farmers.

4 CCOF thinks that a clear

5 requirement for seed purity in 5 to 10 years

6 is achievable and necessary, and it could be

7 integrated into a certification process as

8 other documentation and protocols that are

9 already in place.

10 Okay, now into the comments that

11 were directly aligned with the sections of the

12 report.

13 People who did comment were in

14 agreement that this would be a tool that would

15 be consistent with a process standard. And

16 that the non-detect standard proposed was a

17 workable one for using if we were going to

18 proceed with a recommendation.

19 Next section was about data, about

20 testing protocols and thresholds for

21 rejection. OTA thinks that the lack of data

22 is the most significant source of reluctance
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1 to moving forward with this. They offered to

2 help with aggregating and encouraging

3 initiatives that will collect and present

4 baseline data on seed purity.

5 And other people concurred that

6 there is definitely a need for increased data

7 collection and increased testing protocols.

8 It is an area that I hope we can

9 work maybe with Mark before he leaves with

10 institutionalizing how the data call goes

11 through the Department so that we can make a

12 more firm statement about what data we need

13 and can gather from the Department and also

14 industry. And I'm sure we'll be talking

15 further about that as one of our next steps.

16 Okay, these are a little bit out

17 of order. Just for the sake of making

18 coherent slides.

19 The source material is

20 unavailable. Both CROPP and OTA said

21 substantial players in the seed industry have

22 made it clear that the archive parent lines
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1 owned by large seed houses of the U.S. are

2 generally stored in archives clear of GMO

3 genetic code and could be made available to

4 breeders interested in clean versions of the

5 parent lines.

6 This somewhat obscure statement is

7 in contrast to what we heard in some of the

8 public comment from those companies who use

9 those lines, but we will want to investigate

10 that more.

11 The concern about genetic

12 diversity being decreased. CROPP addressed

13 that through careful breeding isolation over

14 the coming years a breeder could confidently

15 select for seeds that retain lower and lower

16 levels of unwanted genetics in exactly the

17 same way they select for specific varietal

18 genetics.

19 Well, this would be a good area to

20 follow up more with the OSA suggestion that

21 Calvin reiterated about having seed experts

22 come speak to us at a future NOSB meeting
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1 because this is clearly an area that we'd want

2 to hear more about.

3 Okay, the issue of cost or expense

4 for organic farmers, especially small-scale

5 ones. The Organic Produce Wholesalers believe

6 that the primary focus of NOSB recommendations

7 should require the USDA to upholds its

8 obligation to protect organic producers by

9 preventing GE contamination and if it does

10 occur establish compensation models.

11 Yet CCOF said we don't believe

12 that it's practical or desirable to wait until

13 the compensation mechanism from companies

14 manufacturing transgenic crops is in place

15 before implementing a genetic purity standard.

16 OSGATA commended us for

17 recognizing the onus of contamination and

18 concurs that it belongs with the patent

19 holders and they need to be held accountable

20 for their pollution.

21 Okay. Seed availability,

22 especially organic seed. CROPP says they are
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1 quite certain that there are a number of

2 adequate seed suppliers who have access to

3 adequate non-detect germ plasm and want to

4 save the organic non-detect market.

5 That's great if it's, you know,

6 but if they assert it we have to back that up

7 with a little bit more investigation and data

8 before we can go ahead.

9 Distinguishing between organic and

10 conventional seed. OSA commented extensively

11 on this. And these are just some excerpts.

12 The strategy for favoring organic seed in

13 general will take a comprehensive approach

14 that includes better guidance for the NOP,

15 stronger enforcement of the organic seed

16 requirement, especially for minor uses of

17 organic seed that don't -- minor users that

18 don't demonstrate improvement. And an

19 unintended consequence of any standard could

20 be to encourage non-organic seed usage.

21 Also, the policy must address

22 farmer saved seed which I had really not been
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1 thinking were any different than any other

2 seed but perhaps does need special

3 consideration.

4 Okay. And the last point. It's

5 the responsibility of the greater USDA, not

6 just the NOP. I have two slides about this

7 because everybody weighed in on this topic as

8 you might imagine.

9 It's the duty of the National

10 Organic Program to work with the USDA to

11 ensure that organic is a protected form of

12 agriculture because the USDA's mission is to

13 ensure fair farming for all. So I believe

14 they would like Miles and the program to go to

15 bat for us against the rest of the USDA who

16 doesn't really want to support organic.

17 (Laughter)

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Home run,

19 Miles. Come back and show us the ball.

20 (Laughter)

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. OSGATA

22 disagrees with they call it our conclusion
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1 that holding patent holders financially

2 accountable as well as logistically

3 responsible is outside of the scope of the NOP

4 and USDA. This wasn't totally our conclusion

5 but this is what is stated in the report.

6 The USDA statutory responsibility

7 is to work on behalf of the welfare of all

8 farmers for the U.S. which includes organic

9 farmers.

10 The NOSB should be encouraged to

11 call upon the NOP to take a more proactive

12 role in advocating for GMO contamination

13 prevention.

14 Okay, the next ones have to do

15 with people who -- primarily OTA and Organic

16 Seed Alliance who talk about the Plant

17 Protection Act of 2000 which is what gives the

18 underlying authority to the USDA to regulate

19 crops produced through biotechnology and

20 appears to be the root of the problem.

21 OSA had the very interesting

22 comment which I am going to read verbatim
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1 because I thought it was interesting. The PPA

2 which is Plant Protection Act expands APHIS's

3 authority to regulate noxious weeds, a

4 category that more appropriately covers crops

5 than plant pests.

6 The statute defines a noxious weed

7 as any plant or plant product that can

8 directly or indirectly injure or cause damage

9 to crops, livestock, poultry, or other

10 interests of agriculture, irrigation,

11 navigation, the natural resources of the U.S.,

12 the public health or the environment.

13 Clearly, based on this language

14 USDA has sufficient statutory authority to

15 issue regulations that address economic and

16 other harms posed by GE crops.

17 So, I'm not sure we're going

18 anywhere with this, but let it give everyone

19 in the audience ideas if you'd like to pursue

20 that.

21 Okay. A lot of people wrote in

22 about research needs involved with all the
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1 steps. And some of this is quite redundant to

2 what Calvin's talked about so I'm not going to

3 be talking about this at length.

4 But we appear to have, oh, not

5 just 15 or 30 years but 100 years' worth of

6 research ideas that we could do on GMO crops.

7 We singled out two for our research priorities

8 this year because they came up in discussion.

9 But several slides here worth of more.

10 OTA suggested that the NOSB could

11 create a research model to collect data. I'm

12 not exactly sure what that means, a research

13 model to collect data. So maybe they'll tell

14 me more about that at some future time.

15

16 But there is definitely a lack of

17 data on how much contamination is occurring,

18 whether that contamination is coming through

19 the seed or through drift or handling

20 practices. How contaminated is the seed

21 supply now.

22 And then we also need research and
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1 funding on methods to eliminate contamination

2 from breeding lines and foundation seed.

3 And more topics on this slide

4 which includes cost analysis of the financial

5 burdens that would be placed on different

6 organic stakeholders in the process of

7 implementing it.

8 Now, I will say that some other

9 groups besides these 12 commented on these

10 same subjects for research priorities that

11 Calvin summarized and not directly on the seed

12 purity report.

13 Okay. A few other random stray

14 comments.

15 Please leave the discussion of

16 seed purity open until the committee has a

17 recommendation ready for the USDA. That was

18 one of our two individual comments.

19 OTA urges NOSB to include in the

20 recommendation guidance that ACAs require a

21 seed purity declaration made by the seed

22 supplier of the non-GMO status of seed and as
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1 Laura talked about on their bags.

2 The difference between commercial

3 seed and farm-saved seed was brought up. And

4 our other individual commented we should set

5 fines for GMO crops drifting over and

6 contaminating organic non-GMO crops.

7 So that concludes the report on

8 seed purity. I think we have grist to talk

9 about in the committee meetings on some

10 possible next steps regarding research data

11 and some other actions. And so we will take

12 it from there. Thank you.

13 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much,

14 Zea, for compiling all that and the whole

15 background to generate the information, to

16 generate this is just tremendous, the effort

17 you put in on that.

18 Are there others on the Board that

19 would like to add to or ask questions or

20 clarify? John?

21 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I just want to

22 say I think this is a great work product.
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1 This is a lot of work and took a tremendous

2 amount of effort and talent and knowledge.

3 And I just wanted to acknowledge it. It's a

4 really nice piece of work.

5 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

6 MEMBER SONNABEND: And I do want

7 to acknowledge that this might have never been

8 posted if the NOP hadn't agreed to work with

9 us on it. Because we realize that it draws

10 conclusions that are outside of their scope

11 but they did agree to help us make it go

12 forward as a report. So thank you to Melissa

13 and Mark Lipson who helped substantially on

14 this.

15 CHAIR STONE: Yes, I sense a lot

16 of interest in the audience and heard some

17 nice noises from them as you were unveiling

18 some of that. Nick?

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes, I'd just

20 like to make a comment to help frame some of

21 the issues surrounding compensation for GMO

22 contamination. And the use of the concept of
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1 irreparable harm.

2 Once you accept compensation for

3 GMO contamination you no longer have access to

4 irreparable harm arguments. And when you no

5 longer have access to that, you no longer have

6 access to certain forms of injunctive relief.

7 I don't want to get too

8 complicated here but I'm just trying to tell

9 you that once you go down the road of

10 compensation you shut off a whole realm of

11 legal argument to try and contain the

12 activities of the patent holders.

13 So I feel that's more of a legal

14 issue and this paper certainly is not a legal

15 brief, it's a discussion of the substantive

16 problems involved with the contamination.

17 But that is also why it is

18 important to keep your eye on AC 21 and why

19 you may have heard some questions about the AC

20 21 committee here at this meeting.

21 CHAIR STONE: Any other thoughts?

22 Comments? Okay. Mr. Chairman, Calvin, there
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1 seemed to be a lot of consensus around the

2 couple of voting. We've got 10 or 15 minutes.

3 We've got quite a bit tomorrow as well. I'll

4 leave it up to you but I might recommend we

5 knock a couple of these out if that's

6 favorable. Is that -- everybody? While these

7 are still fresh on our minds. We obviously

8 won't go backwards into the agenda.

9 SECRETARY WALKER: Okay. Thank

10 you, Mr. Chairman. Francis, you would like to

11 take the bat on CBI?

12 MEMBER THICKE: CBI? Since I have

13 not done this before I'm not sure what I'm

14 doing here.

15 CHAIR STONE: So, if you'll read

16 the motion and make a motion since you're the

17 lead. And then we'll hopefully get a second.

18 MEMBER THICKE: This isn't really

19 a motion like it is in a proposal usually.

20 Okay, so how about this. The Materials

21 Subcommittee moves to accept recommendation

22 number 1 in the proposal. And it's pretty
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1 long. Do you want me to read it?

2 CHAIR STONE: Maybe not.

3 MEMBER THICKE: Okay.

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Actually, I

5 don't have it open this second. The sentence

6 right above where it says that motion

7 summarizes it in a much shorter form.

8 MEMBER THICKE: Okay, here we go,

9 yes. Thank you, Zea. The Materials

10 Subcommittee is recommending a revision to the

11 material petition process to eliminate the

12 provision for confidential business

13 information.

14 CHAIR STONE: We have a motion.

15 Is there a second?

16 MEMBER TAYLOR: I second.

17 CHAIR STONE: Second by Jennifer.

18 Any further discussion? Okay. Hearing none,

19 we'll proceed with the vote and we'll start

20 with Jennifer.

21 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: No.

3 CHAIR STONE: I'm not voting.

4 We're going a little bit slower so the tally5 takers can keep up here too. John?

6 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

7 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

8 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

9 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

10 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

11 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

13 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

14 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

15 CHAIR STONE: The chair votes yes.

16 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

17 CHAIR STONE: Oh, I'm sorry. I

18 forgot. I thought we started at the

19 beginning. Sorry, Colehour.

20 So, we got 14 yes, 1 no. Thank

21 you very much. So Zea, I think that motion

22 carries. Remember, all chairs are rookies.
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1 They have to get used to this thing.

2 So, Zea said that we needed to do

3 that one first. So, Calvin?

4 SECRETARY WALKER: Next it would

5 be a petitions and technical reviewing

6 process. Zea?

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: The motion is

8 to accept the proposal on updating the

9 petition and TR process as described above and

10 voted on on August 27, 2013.

11 CHAIR STONE: Which I would

12 suggest is a lot of verbiage to make sure

13 everyone is clear that it's above that in the

14 document. Is there anyone that's not clear?

15 Is that okay, Melissa, entered

16 into the record as such? Is there a second?

17 SECRETARY WALKER: I'll second.

18 CHAIR STONE: Second, Calvin. Any

19 further discussion? Seeing none I'll proceed

20 with the vote starting with Jay.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

2 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

3 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

4 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

5 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

6 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

7 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

9 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

10 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

12 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

13 CHAIR STONE: The chair votes yes.

14 We have 15 - 0, the motion passes. I notice

15 Wendy a former secretary is down there busily

16 making sure that we get it right. Thank you

17 for that, Wendy. We can't get it out of you.

18 So, the last one to vote on would

19 be the research priorities.

20 SECRETARY WALKER: Okay, this

21 motion is a motion to adopt the proposed

22 recommendation on NOSB research priorities for
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1 2013.

2 CHAIR STONE: We have a motion.

3 Is there a second?

4 MEMBER TAYLOR: I second.

5 CHAIR STONE: Who said that? I'm

6 sorry. Jennifer. Okay. Any further

7 discussion? Seeing none I'll begin the vote

8 with Zea.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

11 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

12 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

13 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

14 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

15 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

16 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

18 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

19 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

20 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

21 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Vote 15 - 0. Motion

2 passes. Thank you very much. And thank you

3 for the great report or else we wouldn't have

4 had that kind of quick and easy voting process

5 here.

6 So, in closing out, thank you, Mr.

7 Chairman. Thank you for getting your work

8 done.

9 So, tomorrow I guess I want to

10 visit with subcommittee chairs just a little

11 bit. Be sure Michelle has the accurate list,

12 that we know sort of which are being voted on,

13 maybe which are being referred back to

14 committee. We may affect the order of the

15 vote so that we can maybe save time.

16 Many of those that we think are

17 being referred back to committee, we'll sort

18 of maybe work through those to get warmed up,

19 get our juices flowing tomorrow morning, and

20 then save some of the others if there's more

21 time for deliberation that might be needed.

22 Any other thoughts or anything
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1 that anyone wants to bring before we recess

2 for the evening?

3 Thank you very much. We did a lot

4 of great work today. We had a lot of great

5 conversation. The conversation flowed nicely.

6 I appreciate everyone's sharing of information

7 and adding to our work. Thank you very much

8 and we'll see you at 8:30 in the morning.

9 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

10 went off the record at 5:27 p.m.)

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

$7 35:4

A-G-E-N-D-A 3:1

a.m 1:9 5:2 126:15

126:16

ability 111:21

181:6,8 187:5

306:8 307:8

able 7:19 24:2,4

59:19 64:11 66:5

68:18 69:5 91:21

96:1 98:10 99:14

107:7 125:3,16,22

151:11 161:4

171:12 191:3

193:13 259:20

260:6 268:6 306:9

309:12 315:16

331:1 333:10

334:17 336:1

342:12 348:10

350:9 355:10

362:21 366:17

abnormal 11:16

abrupt 29:15

absence 100:7

103:3 132:22

167:11 198:19

267:6 368:6

absent 143:15,18

165:16,21 190:8

230:16,21 236:9

266:1 354:10

absolutely 163:3

178:12 227:20

abstain 165:17

abstained 165:22

abstaining 221:17

abstentions 143:16

143:18 190:18

262:4 266:2

AC 382:18,19

ACA 248:22,22

254:8,9 297:18

298:8

ACAs 244:7 296:6

298:14 379:20

accept 51:3 60:13

229:12 382:2

383:21 386:8

acceptable 8:20,21

65:15 201:8

329:11

accepted 60:2

accepting 145:14

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351:11 359:13

blacked 338:4

351:11

blame 102:16

bleed 265:14

bless 185:2

blight 353:17

361:17

block 62:10

blood 182:4

blowdowns 265:14

blush 276:20

board 1:4,9 2:3 5:4

5:9 6:16 7:4,10,14

8:15,16,19 9:15

9:19 10:1,4,7,11

10:16 11:8,9

15:13,16,21 19:18

22:13 24:10 28:12

29:20 30:14,17,20

32:8,15,20 35:14

35:19 37:16 50:3

50:4,8,15 51:12

51:16 56:3,6

58:16 61:13 83:11

84:6,13 85:9

87:18 88:3 92:3

99:1 103:10

112:19 126:21

130:20 135:15

138:10,21 154:16

166:21 167:15

189:8 207:22

209:7 211:2,7

225:1,8 226:5

228:6 229:3,7

232:17 233:17

247:14,20 249:1

256:20 269:17

275:11 289:1

294:11 298:8

303:13,19 306:10

307:18 308:4

310:9,12 311:1

317:9 323:17

324:14 330:7

334:7,20 337:12

338:22 341:3

345:8 350:8 355:4

355:7 356:1,20

361:21 380:18

Board's 31:4

258:21

Boards 50:5,10

boatload 13:21

body 33:14 44:15

83:5 215:9

bodybuilding

117:2

boiler 4:6 257:2,11

260:10,11,22

261:6,15,18,20

262:17,21 263:11

265:9,12,16 267:5

267:14 268:7,7,16

269:1,4 274:14

281:6,19,21 282:5

282:18 287:7

boilers 275:5

boils 279:20 282:19

Bondera 1:16 33:5

35:17 81:7 105:12

109:17 118:5

119:1 145:7

167:17 172:3

192:14 203:18

230:2 270:4,8

271:2 385:16

387:11 388:20

books 242:2

boosting 211:22

bothered 323:10

bottle 321:1

bottom 37:3 76:17

79:19 129:18

bought 46:15,18

boy 26:3

boys 21:11

brakes 140:14

brand 82:10 298:16

341:13,22

break 114:15,18

136:2 140:14

300:11,13 301:2

324:8

breakdown 89:13

188:8

breaks 8:3 89:22

breath 196:4

bred 38:2 139:16

140:5

breeder 372:14

breeders 372:4

breeding 372:13

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182:10 185:14

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81:21 85:13 89:6

118:6 151:18

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broad 263:18

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broader 147:12

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broadly 110:10

broiler 17:18 21:11

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broilers 19:2,5,8,19

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broker 48:2,2

bromide 79:13

brought 77:8 81:13

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119:21 183:12

203:20 219:6

231:15 312:15

316:1 380:3

Brown 297:21

brunt 49:6

BTSA 110:8

buffers 252:9

build 180:11

building 242:14,15

363:12

buildings 242:15

built 46:11 180:10

254:4 275:10

bulk 219:17

bunch 106:10

177:7 327:2

burden 239:1 243:5

253:18 349:20

370:2

burdens 379:5

bureaucracy 58:1

Bush 325:17,20,22

busily 387:15

business 4:17 44:1

48:15 49:19

110:12 242:1

315:15 318:2

325:3 326:9

339:13,21 344:14

348:22 384:12

businesses 357:13

buy 308:18

buying 170:13

byproduct 167:3

169:17 187:12

byproducts 42:16

177:9

C

c 121:18 202:8

245:15 324:19

cache 127:9,11

CACS 13:10 237:4

256:9

cafeteria 20:6

caking 295:14

calcium 17:13

116:19 117:1

California 367:2

call 45:15 170:22

235:8 252:5 295:5

297:11 356:15

371:10 375:22

376:11

called 48:1 50:21

215:22 234:4

257:10 302:22

calling 175:10

199:11 323:12,13

calls 88:17 101:15

149:18 275:4

Calvin 1:14 36:11

43:8 56:1 88:9

94:19 114:6

119:14 120:3

135:13,16,19

138:8 140:18

166:3 190:2

196:11 197:5

203:19 204:15

231:1 326:5 342:9

352:6 364:2,8,16

372:21 379:11

382:22 386:3,18

Calvin's 136:18

137:9 143:22

366:17 367:8

378:2

Canada 143:9

canceled 53:18

74:4 85:8 104:15

108:12 215:5

266:3 281:14

326:7

candidate 325:20

candy 309:7

cannibalistic 21:1

cannibalize 48:21

capability 253:6

capacity 24:5 34:8

capture 75:1 76:9

captured 137:14

168:14

captures 173:9

carbon 163:11,17

164:1,4,10,12,16

165:15 166:12

168:11,14,15

170:12 177:7

179:2 262:18

347:15

carbonate 264:10

264:11,14 267:8

carbonated 177:13

177:18

carbonic 260:12

care 108:14 212:7

296:6

careful 43:10 84:22

112:18 176:13

277:14 290:3

372:13

Carmela 1:15

209:16,19 210:17

228:22 230:16,22

256:11 270:14

271:2 313:20

carnivore 133:17

Carolina 130:12

carrageenan 307:1

carriers 295:14

carries 385:22

carry 8:21 95:11

314:6

carryover 74:3

cart 233:20

CAS 17:13 135:22

257:5 302:17

cascading 18:9

232:12 245:13,21

case 27:14 61:6

94:10 113:15,19

113:19 123:10,17

140:3 181:15

187:10 206:5

219:8 258:7

270:15 282:7

283:20 294:8,8

340:19,20

cases 106:15

139:17 146:7

167:3 278:10,12

catch 363:22

catching 320:3

categories 89:8

295:13

category 95:13,13

95:14 105:2,7

146:15 172:6

179:17 307:22

377:4

caught 105:4

cause 81:8 377:8

causing 83:9

CBE 271:2

CBI 4:17 325:3

326:14 327:18

329:1 330:2,4,6

330:13,14,19

331:10,13 332:5

332:16 333:19

334:4,15 335:12

336:9 337:9,13

338:1 343:4

346:17 347:6,10

349:16 383:11,12

CBO 271:1

CCOF 220:19

355:18 361:4

367:2 370:4

373:11

Celestial 304:12

331:11

cell 116:1 187:8

center 64:6 130:21

134:15 142:15

284:17 355:16,17

360:6,9,20 365:20

366:20

centered 307:19

centrifuge 346:5

certain 54:19 81:17

100:14 116:1

133:20 220:3

241:7 328:5

333:20 374:1

382:6
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382:14

certification 3:21

4:1 66:14 68:10

209:18,22 210:6

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212:13 216:1,17

216:20,22 218:1

222:12,12 229:14

232:8 239:16

240:12 242:7

248:10,17 253:2

370:7

certified 66:17

68:12 110:14

212:15,15,18,22

216:5,6,14 217:7

217:9 219:13,15

220:21 223:20

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certifier 12:14

64:22 65:2,7 66:6

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certifiers 21:18,20

61:18 62:6,22

65:8,10 72:11

100:10 144:3

206:20 212:16

215:15 217:11

221:4 223:15

239:15 240:14

243:15,17,18,22

248:8,21 249:5,13

249:17 250:6

251:2,13,17,21

252:3,5 253:4,5,9

253:20 255:9,15

256:1 258:10

290:4 292:8

297:13 313:1

314:5 319:10

certify 12:15 66:22

70:21 71:8 171:18

222:13 226:11

certifying 4:2 210:8

216:19 231:7

cetera 133:13

173:21 189:6

363:18

CFS 368:18

chain 212:4,9

213:20 223:14

chains 211:11

chair 5:3 10:21

12:8,22 18:5,17

22:14,17 25:19

27:1,22 28:9 29:6

30:14 33:4 34:22

36:22 37:13 40:17

43:8 45:18 49:8

49:10 50:17,18

52:5 55:3 56:1,13

56:14 57:15 58:13

59:21 60:11 78:1

80:13 81:6 82:14

83:5 85:17,19

86:6 88:9 89:5

90:17 92:13 94:19

95:21,21 96:22

99:17 100:2 101:1

102:8 103:6,7

111:3,11 112:8

114:5,13,13

116:12,20 118:3

119:7 120:3,10,21

121:5 122:3,8,17

124:4 125:6 126:7

126:9,18 135:14

136:10 137:8,13

138:1 139:12,13

140:7,16 144:21

145:6 147:15

149:11 151:6,22

154:15,17,20

155:5,8,22 158:12

159:12 160:4

161:10 162:9,20

163:3 164:7

167:14 169:2,9

172:2,21 177:1,3

178:21 179:11

181:11,21,21

184:12,22 185:5

191:7,13,16

192:13 193:3

194:7,21 195:9

196:1 201:15

203:15 204:15

205:9,11,15

207:20 208:22

223:22 225:12

226:3 228:9,13

229:5,9,17 230:6

230:15,15,20,22

236:19 237:3,11

238:7,14 242:17

243:8,9 245:1,5

245:12 246:6,13

246:18 247:6,15

247:19 248:3

255:3,6 256:5,10

256:14 259:8

270:1,19,21

271:19 272:10,19

273:8 274:5 275:3

279:1 287:18

288:20 290:13

292:9,22 298:7,8

299:16 300:7,19

301:1,17 302:8

304:17 305:9,18

307:9 309:19

310:19 311:16

312:13 313:15,20

314:11 317:6

318:18 320:11

321:8,15,22

322:15 323:1,6

324:13,19,21

329:2,12,19

331:16 333:15

334:11 335:7,8,15

336:19,20 337:6

337:14 339:2

342:9 344:1,2

345:16 347:3

348:4,17 349:2

350:18 351:21

363:6,22 364:12

364:22 380:13,21

381:5,15 382:21

383:15 384:2,14

384:17 385:3,6,15

385:15,17 386:11

386:18 387:2,13

387:13 388:2,5,11

389:1

chairing 265:2

Chairman 135:11

200:15 364:13

382:22 383:10

389:7

Chairperson 1:10

1:13,14

chairs 385:22

389:10

challenge 37:17

67:9 72:19 139:14

challenging 292:5

chance 15:8 183:16

298:12 305:13

352:21

change 23:10 28:1

28:13,19 31:2

47:15 48:22 75:20

164:2 168:18

198:19 220:7,11

237:6,10 255:1

311:12 323:11

327:4,5 328:3,8

369:15

changed 30:3,4

116:3

changer 44:4 45:2

changes 20:21,21

29:15 30:19 31:5

34:2 294:4 327:22

329:10

changing 252:9,10

252:10,11 326:21

chaos 231:2

characterization

120:15 337:5

characterize

335:10,14

charge 24:11 327:4

cheap 38:11,13

cheaply 40:11

check 27:9 240:18

checked 106:16

128:8

checking 240:20

checklist 78:6 79:7

79:16 82:17,22

83:1 84:7,9 87:16

88:11,18 89:9

90:13 91:4 95:16

95:19 98:1,13

105:2 106:14

145:18,22 161:21

171:10 172:6

174:16 183:10

283:12 295:20,21

295:22 296:1,2,3

296:17 297:4

299:7,8,12

checklists 85:6

86:18 91:9 93:9

102:5,21

chefs 320:19

chelate 187:8

192:21 194:14

chelated 194:12

chelating 185:19

186:16,20 187:2

190:17 193:14

chemical 146:17

168:4 187:15

262:8 265:12

268:2 292:14

chemicals 283:5
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chemistry 180:16

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Cheney 325:18,21

chicken 26:17,19

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chickens 17:18

20:15,22 27:5

37:4 38:3 39:17

45:20 46:8,15,16

48:21 49:6 50:22

252:7

chime 107:8

China 110:14

chisel 203:12

chloramines 267:2

chlorine 3:7,16

73:15,18,22 74:8

74:12,22 75:3,6,9

75:10,16 76:18

77:3,10 78:13,15

80:11 85:21 86:3

86:11 88:19,21

89:21 97:8 144:15

182:8,11,13,17,21

354:4

chlorine-based

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chlorite 3:4 52:17

52:20 53:2 58:9

choice 39:5

choices 279:10

choose 222:13

364:15

choosing 170:16

chores 5:10

chose 83:14

chosen 146:2,8

circle 152:22

citation 285:22

citations 148:3

citizen 130:2

201:13,20

citizens 366:8

citrus 360:22

362:20

city 56:8

claim 340:16

claiming 340:12

claims 216:7 224:6

340:8

clarification 85:19

119:8 135:19

172:5 210:5

215:22 217:21

219:4 221:7 225:7

229:2,12 236:21

247:11 272:12

299:22

clarifications 329:3

clarified 225:11

clarify 6:10 28:10

76:1 213:14

257:12 263:6

304:11 330:20

331:17 380:20

clarifying 4:2 210:8

231:7

clarity 105:22

124:8 145:18

176:8 216:20

class 296:10

classes 295:10

296:4 299:14

classic 310:21

classification

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135:20 198:15

277:13 278:4,6,18

350:10

classify 165:15

clean 84:1 265:15

289:21 372:4

cleaned 91:3

cleaner 301:2

cleaning 110:11

289:10

clear 28:8,12 34:20

35:18 54:9,17

78:5 79:22 87:20

92:6,19 93:4

119:12 135:10

147:8 170:10

193:21 199:6

216:13,15 218:3,5

289:19 297:1

304:9 346:15

370:4 371:22

372:2 386:13,14

cleared 93:11

clearer 91:19

349:14

clearly 44:3 62:6

87:10 90:13 98:2

140:8,8,11 142:22

164:13 176:1

183:9 373:1

377:13

client 271:9,12

clients 253:22

319:11

climate 168:18

clock 28:1

clockwise 229:22

close 50:18 51:21

52:6 210:21

289:16

closed 98:3,14

101:9 131:14

133:12 134:14,16

134:18 135:9

closely 289:17

292:12

closes 46:13

closing 389:6

cloud 282:15,20

co-leading 110:19

co-leads 103:15

co-led 213:22

CO2 3:14 144:6,16

163:7 164:18,22

165:4,12 166:7,22

167:2,3,13 169:4

169:12,19 170:6

172:12 173:5,11

173:15,17,19,20

174:2,4,10 176:16

177:20 181:15

192:2

Coalition 134:9,12

355:15 357:7

358:1 359:11

366:20 367:5

code 372:3

codification 234:1

cogent 166:8

coherent 371:18

cold 111:16 282:14

Colehour 1:16 33:4

37:17 81:6 85:13

86:12 87:7 94:21

95:6 103:15

104:21 105:10

118:4 119:15

128:11 144:20,22

145:4,6 147:16

167:16 172:2

192:13 193:5

198:17,21 203:17

208:9 230:1 270:3

270:8 271:1

385:19

Colehour's 82:16

collaboration

228:18 359:5

collaborative 210:1

collaboratively

183:16

collating 138:9

colleague 214:1

colleagues 343:16

collect 371:3

378:11,13

collecting 65:11

297:15

collection 371:7

collective 248:22

collectively 274:14

collegial 86:15

colors 278:16

column 146:8

comb 96:8

combination 58:19

59:1

combined 5:18

90:22

come 8:2 10:1

12:15 18:22 24:6

28:14 45:8 50:6

52:3 59:18 65:22

70:14 72:14 75:4

83:5 87:9 97:14

99:16 102:6,20

118:10 119:20

126:2,11,12 138:2

147:10 151:4

170:2 174:17

183:18 184:7

189:2 198:8,10

199:5 213:6

217:16 227:12

228:5 243:10

267:19 274:4

279:14 282:5,20

289:4 294:11

295:13 306:9

311:3 313:5 314:7

318:17 325:19

328:12 342:7

346:20 358:7

362:22 372:22

375:19

comes 31:20 125:1

191:22 279:8

289:16 310:13

311:18 314:8

340:10 348:7

comfort 209:12

251:15 255:15

comfortable 13:3

98:17 99:3 172:1

251:14 252:20

254:4 255:18

343:5

coming 13:3 21:16

40:10 49:20 72:8

101:13 170:15

173:14 214:9

251:11 269:7,22

315:7,20 331:21

372:14 378:18

commended 373:16

comment 19:7
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206:1 214:9

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258:5 259:2 261:9

263:3 266:9,13

267:1 268:11,14

271:12 284:5,11

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7:13 8:6 13:1

21:5 22:9 29:8,9

30:6,11 36:12

37:19 40:19,21

41:10 42:6 50:19

57:10 74:5 78:2

85:20 86:1 96:7

96:15 99:20 100:8

102:4,6 104:17,20

108:6 109:10

114:3 116:11,12

118:19,20 119:17

119:18 120:1

129:3 130:2

131:20 136:15,19

137:15,19 138:3

138:14 140:19

143:20 144:4,5,11

144:12,15 145:1

145:20 146:3,5,8

156:17,18 158:13

166:7 167:10,16

190:20 200:13

206:12,13,17

207:4,8,18 219:21

221:3,5,12,14

222:5 228:16

233:4,15 235:13

237:15 238:10

263:7 266:18

274:10 278:3,21

286:8 287:12

300:8 305:15

306:17 311:4,7

317:1,7,22 318:1

321:17 327:21

330:8 331:6,7

346:21 352:4

355:5,8 362:15

363:7 366:7,8

368:14,14 370:10

379:14,18 382:22

commercial 20:10

108:20 111:20

130:9 307:20

317:21 380:2

commercially

108:8 112:4 308:5

315:1 320:21

commingling 218:9

290:8

commissioned

294:15

commitment

339:19 341:2

committee 5:7 6:2

6:5,13 11:2 16:12

18:7 20:15,18

26:10 41:2 42:12

55:14 60:6,12

75:1 77:19 80:18

80:21 82:17,21

85:9,9,10 88:20

99:22 102:20

103:9 109:15

111:12,13,16

116:13 120:14

125:8 126:10

128:1,12 132:12

160:5,7 163:20

165:14 179:1

183:15 184:8

197:18 198:13,18

204:17 205:9

208:10 215:10

218:22 220:6,13

221:12 238:15

248:4 256:12

265:3 269:18

270:9 276:10

278:19,20 279:2

283:10 287:5,6

299:17,19,20

300:8 303:10,17

307:18 315:22

320:12 325:19

329:4 331:17

339:5,10 343:3

354:1,2 358:20

361:14 362:22

364:10 365:12

369:20 379:16

380:9 382:20

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126:12 129:21

179:9 201:10

262:4 324:8 355:2

357:13 362:3

364:18 370:5

383:2

10:40 126:11,15

100 57:21 133:16

354:13 378:5

100,000 47:10

103 3:9

104 282:15

11 126:12 231:17

331:8 352:17

354:12

11,000 129:20

11:02 126:16

114 3:10

12 38:20 141:3

328:4 366:6,13

368:14 379:9

12:30 208:16

12:32 208:20

127 3:12

13 328:4

14 230:20 385:20

15 11:5 128:15

209:4 362:3

364:18 378:5

383:2 387:14

389:1

154 3:13

156 68:15

163 3:15

17 28:3

18 3:3 123:3

182 3:16

185 3:18

189 68:16

19 73:19 182:12

196 3:19

1995 104:12 260:21

2

2 17:18,22 19:18

20:12 41:6 62:2

95:14 105:2

115:15 165:16,21

172:6 179:17

259:12 266:1

363:14

20 26:2 45:20

163:15 361:17

362:3

200 71:1 360:10

2000 211:17 259:19

376:17

2001 259:21 261:1

261:7,11,13,17

2002 97:13 211:17

2004 303:8 342:14

2005 110:6 261:22

2006 74:10 163:22

179:3 262:6 303:8

2007 211:2 303:11

303:18 314:21

2008 53:14 303:19

2009 215:22 216:12

217:2 220:1

2011 17:2 18:2

32:16 74:9 186:2

2012 52:21 73:19

103:19 115:5

141:3 155:11

163:12,15 182:12

185:17 196:15

259:12 262:12

281:3 353:2

2013 4:19 53:11,17

74:3 104:9,14

115:10 129:4

197:19 231:11

265:22,22 266:14

275:18 276:16

281:10 282:1

325:6 326:20

329:15 353:15

386:10 388:1

2014 1:7 129:8

141:12 173:12

231:17 266:6,15

294:12 355:2

2015 4:12 258:3

301:6 310:18,19

2016 257:20 266:11

269:22 294:10

2017 17:22

2020 184:17

205.101(c) 218:14

205.105(e) 63:14,18

205.206 233:2

240:22

205.206(e) 4:3

210:9 231:8

232:10

205.207(5)(b)

363:16

205.237(5)(b)

363:17

205.238(a)(6) 63:5

205.600 232:21

205.600(a) 64:1

205.601 155:19

162:4 182:22

187:1

205.601(j)(8)

196:21

205.603 17:5,8 53:3

115:13 141:16

182:22 276:6

205.603(a)(4) 63:12

205.605 53:6 183:1

257:1 259:14

276:11 281:5

205.605(a) 302:18

303:16

205.605(b) 104:3

164:6 257:5,11

275:20 276:22

284:8 303:8

205.606 307:15

314:22 318:2

206 236:6

206(f) 247:2

21 261:22 382:18

382:20

210 4:1

231 4:3

24 56:7,12

248 4:4

25 45:9

25,000 323:21

256 4:6

27 103:19 115:4

185:16 281:3

386:10

275 4:8

280 4:9

29 129:5

293 4:11

3

3 17:19 19:19 20:13

67:21 95:14 129:9

129:11 154:6

163:12 196:15

262:4

3,000-pound 14:11

3:51 324:8,11

30 45:10 52:21

357:3 361:17

378:5

300 1:10

301 4:12

307 4:13

314 4:13

316 4:14

324 4:16

330 4:17

352 4:19

365 4:21

4

4 106:19 141:17

165:21 275:18

324:8 351:4,8

4:13 324:12

40-minute 357:3

43 19:3 325:22

4857-44-7 17:14

5

5 27:19 33:20

165:16 354:9

370:5

5-year 34:1

5:27 390:10

52 3:4

56-81-5 257:5

583-91-5 17:14

59 201:10

59-02-9 135:22

59-51-8 17:13

6

6 93:16 190:18

266:1 274:8

605(a) 304:8

605(b) 303:11

61 3:6
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6504 290:16

651.7 64:2

651.8 64:3

6517(b) 121:14

6517(c)(1)(B)(i)

127:19

68 144:7

7

7 155:11 156:9

198:14 221:16

236:9 290:16

330:19

710-10-521 302:17

73 3:7

79 129:9,11

8

8 17:2 172:7

8.509 260:12

8:30 390:8

8:31 1:9 5:2

80 355:4

80-some 243:14

89 354:16,17

9

9 146:16 154:5

922-50-9 17:14

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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE (AMS)

 NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM (NOP)

 + + + + +

 MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIC

 STANDARDS BOARD (NOSB)

 + + + + +

 FRIDAY

 MAY 2, 2014

 + + + + +

 The National Organic Standards

Board convened at 8:30 a.m., at the St.

Anthony Hotel, 300 East Travis Street, San

Antonio, Texas, Mac Stone, Chairperson,

presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

MAC STONE, Chairperson

JOHN FOSTER, Vice Chairperson

CALVIN WALKER, NOSB Secretary

HAROLD AUSTIN

CARMELA BECK

COLEHOUR BONDERA

JOSEPH DICKSON

TRACY FAVRE

JAY FELDMAN

WENDY FULWIDER

NICHOLAS MARAVELL

JEAN RICHARDSON

ZEA SONNABEND

JENNIFER TAYLOR

FRANCIS THICKE
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STAFF PRESENT:

MILES McEVOY, Deputy Administrator, National

Organic Program

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board

Specialist

MELISSA BAILEY, Director, Standards

Division, National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, Standards Division, National

Organic Program
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS

 PAGE

Deferred Proposals/Final Votes 4

NOSB Officer Elections 143

Subcommittee Workplans 149

Other Business and Closing Remarks 160
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 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

 2 (8:31 a.m.)

 3 CHAIR STONE: Okay. I've got 8:30

 4 -- 8:31 actually. We've got a lot of voting

 5 to do today. We had great discussion on these

 6 materials the last two or three -- three days

 7 I guess.

 8 I think everyone in the audience

 9 heard that several of these are going back to

 10 committee. And I think actually my sense is

 11 the Board members appreciate that, they're

 12 fine with that. They feel like we did good

 13 work, we listened to comment, we read

 14 comments, we adjusted our decisionmaking

 15 because of the good information that we got

 16 from the broader community.

 17 So we talk about it at the Board

 18 level, of how do we engage the community

 19 during our deliberations so that we can get

 20 closer to the right thing before we get here.

 21 And so there's several layers of continual

 22 improvement, and I think information-sharing,
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1 but I'm pretty proud of this group of people

2 that worked hard, listened hard, and going

3 back to work on these same materials so that

4 we can get it right in the long run.

5 So, Board members, I know it's

6 going to be feel sort of not fun to go around

7 on referrals. But with Robert's Rules, when

8 you have a two-third majority that's needed,

9 you have to do a roll call vote. And it goes

10 into the -- it gets recorded that way. We

11 can't just everybody raise their hand or nod

12 or whatever. We have to go around.

13 So I think we'll go through just

14 in order. Ms. Grateful Dead, Zea, over here,

15 we'll start with the Crops Committee when Zea

16 gets settled in.

17 I think it makes most sense -- we

18 do have a hard stop at 11:15. So I think

19 that's plenty of time to discuss the ones that

20 are not being referred back to committee. But

21 I will be moving it along. If it gets to that

22 point, we'll have to just stop the
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1 deliberations and vote to move on. Because of

2 the Federal Register Notice, the meeting has

3 to end on time. And, besides that, several of

4 us have planes to catch and we planned on

5 being finished on time, frankly.

6 So is there any other

7 housekeeping? Miles, anything you've got?

8 MR. McEVOY: No.

9 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Colehour?

10 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. Don't

11 mean to correct you, but you read it quickly,

12 and I just want to make sure it's clear. It

13 says 11:15 is when that session starts. It

14 ends at 11:45. Just so you aren't looking at

15 your clock this whole time thinking we're

16 ending at 11:15.

17 CHAIR STONE: Right. No, the

18 voting ends at 11:15. Right.

19 MEMBER BONDERA: No. Is that --

20 okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. I'm

21 reading it wrong now. Thank you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Zea, are you
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1 settled in? We'll start with streptomycin.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. This is

3 my birthday celebration, not the Grateful

4 Dead, because it's the last day, so we might

5 as well celebrate today. And Michelle gave me

6 this.

7 Okay. The first thing in the

8 Crops Committee will be streptomycin. And I

9 don't know, do you want the point person to

10 read the motion for each one? Which I think

11 would be good, since I don't have it in front

12 of me?

13 CHAIR STONE: Correct. I think

14 let the point person start the discussion.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. So, then

16 I'll ask Harold to take it away.

17 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. For

18 streptomycin, classification motion, we won't

19 need as it's already on the national list

20 classified as a synthetic. The listing

21 motion, which is before us, is the motion to

22 remove the existing expiration date of October
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1 21, 2014, for streptomycin at 205.601-I-11,

2 and replace it with an expiration date of

3 October 21, 2017, so that the listing reads,

4 "Section 11 streptomycin for fire blight

5 control in apples and pears only until October

6 21, 2017."

7 CHAIR STONE: So I'm going to let

8 that be as a motion. You didn't just read the

9 motion. That is a motion, correct?

10 MEMBER AUSTIN: I move to accept

11 this motion as I just read it.

12 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Is there a

13 second?

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'll second it.

15 CHAIR STONE: Seconded by Zea. Is

16 there further discussion on this motion? Jay?

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: Just to make it

18 clear, could we just explain that a vote in

19 favor will extend streptomycin and a vote

20 against will keep the existing expiration date

21 of October 2014.

22 CHAIR STONE: Correct. Thank you
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1 for clarifying that. Does anyone have further

2 conversation versus having thought about it

3 from the other day?

4 (Off-microphone comment.)

5 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Michelle

6 reminded us we discussed the other day,

7 whichever day, conflict of interest. The

8 process that we have is the Board has emailed

9 a chart of all of the petitions on the table,

10 and Board members self-declare whether they

11 have a conflict of interest under the

12 definition, the USDA definition that we have

13 been advised of.

14 No one on the Board, to my

15 knowledge, had any conflicts on any of the

16 materials today. But I welcome any Board

17 member that wishes to declare their interest

18 or potential perception of interest. If they

19 would like to, you're certainly welcome to do

20 so. Zea did the other day, and she said that

21 lasts for the whole meeting, the way I

22 remember it. But anyone else is certainly
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1 welcome to do so.

2 MR. McEVOY: Yeah, and as the

3 Designated Federal Officer for the National

4 Organic Standards Board, the information that

5 was supplied by the members indicated that no

6 members have a conflict of interest with any

7 of the proposals being voted on.

8 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thanks.

9 Thanks, Michelle, for keeping us on track.

10 Harold, did you have your hand up?

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. Before we

12 start to take our vote, I would just like to

13 make a few comments in defense of the listing

14 motion. I think, you know, we've gone through

15 the written public comment period. We've gone

16 through the oral testimony. And I think we've

17 gotten some decent feedbacks from both those

18 that are in favor of this motion and those

19 that have some very solid-based grounds of

20 concerns about not moving this motion forward.

21 I would like to say that, in

22 Seattle, this Board challenged the organic
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1 producer industry to go out and start to begin

2 to take the task of finding alternatives to

3 streptomycin and tetracycline, which the

4 industry did. I think we heard in testimony

5 yesterday that research testing and

6 development on replacement products will take

7 anywhere from five to 10 to as long as 15

8 years to really go through that cycle of

9 taking and learning a product, learning

10 physically how to use it, taking that product,

11 then, and being able to physically work it

12 into a day-to-day operation, something that a

13 grower has a comfortability about using that

14 product and knowing that it's not going to

15 damage his crop in a different way than maybe

16 what fire blight was, if we use products we

17 can cause russet, whatever.

18 I think the problem for me is that

19 the Board set the ground rules when they

20 challenged the industry and they told them in

21 Seattle to go forward and come back to us and

22 show us that you're making progress, which is
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1 exactly what they did. They haven't completed

2 the trials. They haven't completed the

3 testing.

4 We've got one material, and we

5 continue to hear about, well, we've got this

6 Blossom Protect. As we heard in oral

7 testimony, and as we saw in written testimony,

8 Blossom Protect is not a panacea for a full

9 replacement of antibiotics. It's not shown to

10 be completely effective in all geographic

11 locations of the United States. It's a

12 material that does not replace the antibiotics

13 post-bloom. Post-bloom is a serious point of

14 control when we've got tip blight and we've

15 got blight that can be caused from hail

16 damage. We have no material.

17 There is a material, a copper,

18 that is still tied up. We talked about it

19 during the tetracycline discussion. It's

20 still tied up with EPA. It does sound like

21 it's coming through and will be ready for use

22 later this season, which of course will be
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1 after the fire blight season.

2 The tools aren't yet there for our

3 stakeholders in the organic sector for the

4 removal of this material. I don't think

5 anybody in this room that sits on this Board

6 wants to see an indefinite period of time for

7 streptomycin to continue to be used. We know

8 that's not the right move, and that's not what

9 sunset is all about, and we appreciate that.

10 To remove this now, before the

11 rest of the research and development has been

12 done, will put a hardship on individuals that

13 we heard yesterday. These crops are not crops

14 that get replaced each and every year, once or

15 twice a year. These are crops that are put in

16 the ground and they are going to have a

17 lifetime expectancy of 20 to 30 years. That

18 is a tough loss when you're starting to take

19 those trees, those plants, that production out

20 of the equation for your family livelihood.

21 We owe it to our organic

22 stakeholders, our producers that rely on this
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1 material, to give them this extension and set

2 a hard-fast date of October 21, 2017, for a

3 firm and definite removal. We are not yet

4 there. 2011 to 2014 is not adequate time for

5 the research and development to have been

6 given proper time to take place and reach full

7 continuity and have the results back to the

8 industry and the stakeholders that they need.

9 Thank you.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Harold.

11 Zea?

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: I just would

13 like to speak from personal experience and on

14 behalf of the pear growers in California.

15 Pears are more susceptible, as we've heard, to

16 fire blight. California does have a pear

17 industry. We've been watching this carefully.

18 We have very different conditions there than

19 they do in Washington and Oregon. And since

20 I've been really trying to encourage our

21 growers to move away from antibiotics, I have

22 been trying to stay on top of all of the
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1 guidance and suggestions and research and like

2 that to tell our growers.

3 The research and the public

4 information for the most part is oriented

5 towards Washington and Oregon. And so, for

6 instance, we eagerly awaited the publication

7 by David Granatstein and Harold Ostenson. It

8 was not released until March of this year,

9 which is after blooms started for California

10 pears in the Central Valley and in my area.

11 And by after bloom it is too late to do an

12 integrated program for that year. I mean,

13 it's not too late to do some of it, but it's

14 too late to do the whole integrated program.

15 You have to start in the dormant season.

16 So, you know, we being

17 enterprising, fruit growers on my farm decided

18 the future is in fire-resistant pears, so

19 let's plant a block of them. Well, that is

20 not that easy. There is one variety. It's

21 not that easy to find. We had to have it

22 custom-grafted onto rootstock that works in
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1 our area, because it is not the same rootstock

2 as in Washington, and so we have to wait.

3 That's a two-year process for us to arrange

4 the custom grafting onto the right rootstock.

5 And so even though I started last

6 year, we won't be able to have those trees to

7 even plant until next year. And then we have

8 to wait five to seven years to get pears.

9 And so, you know, people are like,

10 okay, the consumers don't want antibiotic

11 pears. Okay. The consumers get a choice

12 between conventional pears, pears from

13 Argentina, or no pears at all.

14 So, the organic consumer has

15 spoken. They don't want pears. I'm sorry,

16 but that's what it boils down to for the next

17 several years. And my estimate is,

18 realistically, 10 to 20 years until a good

19 supply of organic pears will become available

20 again. And that's why I'm in support of this

21 motion.

22 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Zea.
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1 Others? Jay?

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: Thank you. The

3 discussion we're having is critical to how we

4 try to balance the need for materials versus

5 the adverse impacts of materials, and that's

6 always a challenge, obviously. And I don't

7 think anybody feels good about taking

8 materials away, especially when the need is

9 established.

10 In many ways, I view organic as

11 having a number of pressure points that are

12 elevated among the many, this being one of

13 them, this being one of them for the reason

14 that most of the people -- and you mentioned

15 consumers -- most of the people that buy

16 organic food have believed that antibiotics

17 are not a part of the inputs, or not among the

18 inputs.

19 And, you know, that is how the

20 industry has evolved, for better or worse.

21 And so we're trying to catch up with that

22 perception out there. And in the context of
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1 how we might do that, this Board, I think, has

2 been extremely diligent in trying to effect

3 the transition.

4 It didn't start in Seattle. It

5 started years before. By the time it got to

6 Seattle, we were already faced with an

7 expiration date. The Seattle meeting extended

8 the expiration date. So, you know, you can go

9 back to some of the original meetings of the

10 Board, and this has been on the table.

11 You know, one thing I'm beginning

12 to realize, until the hammer falls, the

13 incentive doesn't seem to be there, for some

14 reason. And I wish it weren't that way. I

15 wish people would actually read the

16 transcripts and see how serious the issues are

17 and try to stay ahead of the curve. But

18 typically what we've seen, you know, I've

19 worked the pesticides side of ag production

20 for many years, and I can tell you, in all the

21 hot button issues, most of what I've seen

22 happen in industry is to rally around
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1 supporting a material rather than trying to

2 get ahead of the curve and transition.

3 So to say that the hammer fell in

4 Seattle on this I don't believe is accurate.

5 Yes, the Board has picked up a degree of

6 seriousness that has become more and more

7 elevated. And I think it has become more

8 elevated because when you see medical

9 institutions, like the World Health

10 Organization, and, you know, doctors that are

11 concerned about antibiotic resistance in very

12 serious public health terms, then, you know,

13 a Board like this is really instructed to

14 consider that.

15 And so when we make this decision,

16 unfortunately, it's not just a decision of,

17 well, what does an individual sector need or

18 believe it needs for having a successful crop,

19 because that is changing all the time. We

20 need to do a better job of conveying the

21 seriousness of the transition away from

22 materials that are believed to be out of
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1 compliance with the standards of OFPA.

2 Because obviously the message from the Board

3 didn't get out in 2008, didn't get out years

4 before that, if you go through the transcript,

5 which I have, where there is a very serious

6 discussion.

7 So the discussion doesn't motivate

8 the change. You know, when I tried to bring

9 Harold Ostenson to the conversation back in

10 Seattle, I was told that was inappropriate.

11 And that his name was just referenced because

12 he has written a document for the Organic

13 Center, which is very helpful.

14 But the industry has known about

15 Dr. Ostenson for a very long time, and that he

16 has been assisting growers in transitioning

17 away from these materials. So we're at this

18 juncture where we shouldn't really be, and it

19 shouldn't have had to come down to this. We

20 should have been able to get to this point

21 through a more collaborative spirit, and it

22 shouldn't be viewed as environmentalists or
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1 consumers against growers.

2 The whole purpose of this Board is

3 to bring all of us together to put the message

4 out there to effect the transition, and we

5 just haven't gotten to that yet.

6 So we're dealing with human

7 pathogens and fire blight bacteria that share

8 the same exact gene pool of genes resistant to

9 streptomycin. You can't deny that. There is

10 a direct connection there. We are dealing

11 with streptomycin residues that are sometimes

12 present in treated fruit. We can't deny that.

13 And at the same time, we are dealing with the

14 fact that streptomycin is still an important

15 antimicrobial that is used to fight human

16 pathogens.

17 I'm not going to go into all of

18 the details about how, you know, horizontal

19 gene transfer works. You've got the

20 testimony. You've got Dr. Morris' statements

21 that he delivered to the Board in Portland and

22 reiterated in public comment. You've got the
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1 Infectious Disease Society of America, which

2 has raised a very serious, you can call it

3 precautionary appeal or precautionary

4 standard, but that is what medicine is about,

5 connecting the dots and saying to the public

6 we have sufficient evidence to urge you to

7 take another course, even though all of the

8 science isn't on the table at this point.

9 There is enough science that they

10 could reach the conclusion that this

11 connection that I just read you is evident,

12 this horizontal gene transfer and this

13 connection to human pathogens and the

14 resistance associated with them.

15 So, when we have the discussion,

16 yes, we need to hear what Harold is saying.

17 This is very painful that, you know, we've

18 gotten to a point where the clock somehow only

19 started ticking in Seattle, when this Board

20 has been on record for about a decade at

21 least, if not more, that this was a problem.

22 Medical communities weighing in,
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1 consumers, at the end of the day, we have to

2 protect the label and the integrity of the

3 label and ensure consumer trust. So, you

4 know, as Zea said yesterday, you sit and watch

5 these issues from the audience and you say,

6 "Boy, I hope I don't have to vote," or "I'm

7 glad I don't have to vote on that." And we're

8 at one of those junctures where we shouldn't

9 have to be voting on this. This should have

10 transitioned on its own through the great work

11 of this Board historically, but it didn't. So

12 we're forced to push it along again in the

13 interest of protecting consumer trust in the

14 label. So, you've heard me say all of this

15 before, but there you have it.

16 CHAIR STONE: Wendy?

17 MEMBER FULWIDER: I find that when

18 consumers come directly to the farm and they

19 have questions about organic and conventional

20 and transitioning and all of those things, if

21 you take the time to explain it to them, they

22 understand it. And I think the bulk of
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1 consumers would support having organic fruit

2 in the United States, even if we need to give

3 them time and give them a few tools, because

4 it's going to be cleaner, it's going to be

5 more sustainable, and it's going to be better.

6 And we really need to move forward

7 and support one another rather than push

8 producers out of the industry.

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Wendy.

10 Harold?

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: I'd just like to

12 say that, Jay, the decision in Seattle 2011

13 didn't start the hammer drop-down and the

14 industry working for a solution to the

15 antibiotic use. I have been raised my whole

16 life in tree fruit production in the

17 Northwest. I've been a licensed crop

18 consultant for over 35 years. I have been

19 involved in the organic industry for over 20.

20 I've been in IPM since its inception in the

21 Northwest.

22 We've been looking for a solution
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1 for antibiotics for as long as I can remember.

2 For the organic sector, with the transitioning

3 of the acreages starting in 2008, we started

4 to see enough volume where people outside the

5 scope of the norm started to look at the

6 organic sector as a viable, plausible,

7 supporting sector of the agriculture industry,

8 to where the research and development started

9 to take place.

10 We started to see some grants come

11 through. We started to see some research

12 projects starting to be initiated. So it

13 wasn't 2011, this hammer dropping, as you

14 said. 2011 was the arbitrary date of 2014 for

15 this to expire from use for our industry.

16 The research and development from

17 the growers has been going on for as long as

18 I've been a part of tree fruit farming. It's

19 a continual phase, it's a continual process,

20 and that's why I'm saying it's not like all of

21 a sudden the light bulb clicked on and these

22 growers said, "Hey, wow, look, we've got to
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1 start doing something because the National

2 Organic Standards Board in Seattle in 2011

3 said, 'You've got to get your act together.'"

4 Their act has been together. It

5 has been together for a very long time. They

6 just haven't had the resources or the ability

7 or the financial backing from the universities

8 and the grants and those entities that provide

9 that ability for them to be able to be

10 successful. They are making huge progress.

11 I feel that we need to afford them the

12 opportunity, the time, and our support to make

13 that happen.

14 I know there's a concern from a

15 lot of other stakeholders. We're not denying

16 that, and we're not turning our backs on that.

17 It's not like these guys are asking for an

18 expiration date of 2020, 2030. They're

19 looking for a couple more years to get a

20 couple more products and some research

21 material out in the field where they can

22 physically get their hands on it, take a look
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1 at it, integrate it into their organic systems

2 plants in a functional, viable way. That's

3 all they're looking for, and that's all I've

4 got to say.

5 But the research and the industry

6 movement from those stakeholders, those

7 producers, didn't start in 2011. It started

8 a heck of a long time before that.

9 CHAIR STONE: Thank you. Others?

10 (No response.)

11 Okay. I think it's framed pretty

12 well, and we're ready for a vote. Okay.

13 Starts with Harold.

14 MEMBER AUSTIN: Hm, let me think

15 about that.

16 (Laughter.)

17 Yes.

18 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

19 SECRETARY WALKER: No.

20 MEMBER RICHARDSON: No.

21 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

22 MEMBER BECK: Yes.
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1 MEMBER FAVRE: No.

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

3 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

4 MEMBER THICKE: No.

5 MEMBER BONDERA: No.

6 MEMBER TAYLOR: No.

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: No.

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

9 CHAIR STONE: Yes.

10 The vote was seven nos, eight yes,

11 motion fails. Thank you. It's not easy.

12 MEMBER AUSTIN: Mac, we would like

13 to go ahead and bring forth the additional

14 resolution motion at this time as well.

15 CHAIR STONE: Proceed.

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: Okay. We also

17 have an attached resolution motion with the

18 streptomycin motion we'd like to take and put

19 before the Board. And it reads, "The National

20 Organic Standards Board is committed to the

21 phase-out of this material. Between now and

22 the expiration date, the Board urges growers
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1 and certifiers to include an organic systems

2 plan, an annual increase in the extent and/or

3 number of alternative practices and materials

4 that are trialed for controlling fire blight.

5 In addition, the Board strongly advocates to

6 the USDA a high priority for increased support

7 for research into these alternative practices

8 and materials."

9 I make this motion.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Harold.

11 Is there a second?

12 MEMBER BONDERA: I'll second that

13 motion.

14 CHAIR STONE: Second, Colehour

15 Bondera. Any further conversation?

16 (No response.)

17 Voting begins with John.

18 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

19 SECRETARY WALKER: Could you

20 repeat what has been said, what we're voting

21 on?

22 CHAIR STONE: The resolution, the
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1 commitment resolution that is --

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: A yes vote would

3 accept this resolution from the Board; a no

4 vote would not.

5 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

6 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

7 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

8 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

9 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

10 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

11 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

12 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

13 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

14 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

17 CHAIR STONE: Yes.

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

19 Fifteen-zero.

20 CHAIR STONE: Fifteen-zero.

21 Motion passes. Thank you, Harold.

22 Magnesium oxide. Zea?
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. That

2 would be -- Francis will read the motion.

3 MEMBER THICKE: So, first, we need

4 a classification motion, and so I make a

5 motion to classify magnesium oxide as a

6 synthetic.

7 MEMBER AUSTIN: Second that.

8 CHAIR STONE: Motion by Francis.

9 Second by Harold. Any conversation?

10 Deliberations?

11 (No response.)

12 Voting begins with Calvin. Oh,

13 I'm sorry. Jay?

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Sorry about that.

15 Okay. So this is the synthetic motion we're

16 voting on right now?

17 CHAIR STONE: Correct.

18 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. Sorry.

19 CHAIR STONE: Voting begins with

20 Calvin.

21 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

22 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.
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1 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

2 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

3 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

5 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

6 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

7 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

8 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

10 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

12 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

13 CHAIR STONE: Yes.

14 SECRETARY WALKER: Fifteen-zero.

15 CHAIR STONE: Fifteen-zero.

16 Motion passes.

17 Francis?

18 MEMBER THICKE: So I make a motion

19 to list magnesium oxide at 205.601 with the

20 following annotation, "For use only to control

21 the viscosity of a clay suspension agent for

22 humates."
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1 CHAIR STONE: Motion by Francis.

2 Is there a second?

3 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Second.

4 CHAIR STONE: Who said that?

5 Jean? Motion second by Jean. Any

6 deliberations?

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

8 Okay. I originally supported this motion, as

9 you know, in subcommittee because I believed

10 that this, based on the data received, would

11 provide -- serve a useful function. As with

12 many of the petitions that we get, there are

13 issues of a variety of manufacturing

14 processes. Some are better than others, you

15 know, when it comes to extraction or source

16 material or release of effluent or some sort

17 of contaminant associated with the

18 manufacturing process.

19 In this case, as we talked about

20 yesterday -- I'm not going to repeat all of

21 this again, but there are contaminants

22 associated with that process or source
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1 material. I always felt comfortable with

2 these deficiencies or limitations or

3 imperfections in -- you know, in the petitions

4 insofar as them being perfectly "safe,"

5 quote/unquote, and took some console in the

6 fact that -- or consolation in the fact that

7 we would, as a Board, revisit these materials

8 under the same rigorous process that we

9 applied to their initial listing on the

10 national list.

11 So, in other words, we are now

12 going to vote on this. It will require a

13 two-thirds vote. And in five years we would

14 have voted on this again; it would have

15 required a two-thirds vote. And that provided

16 the kind of incentive, both in research and in

17 the -- in the industry to push toward the

18 safer manufacturing processes.

19 We are taking that incentive away,

20 and we are -- as we have seen with other

21 materials, as soon as you introduce a

22 material, you create a dependency on that
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1 material. This certainly will make things

2 easier to build organic matter in the soil, to

3 create a more healthy humus in the soil.

4 These are all good things. This is part of

5 what we want to do in organic production. But

6 we don't have access to it now, and we are

7 doing those things.

8 We could do it better and more

9 easily, but we need to maintain the rigor with

10 which we evaluate whether this material is

11 acceptable, and, more importantly whether we

12 can do it better, whether we can make this

13 material better.

14 There is no incentive for someone

15 to go out there and invest in R&D if they

16 don't think they could get the votes when

17 you've got a whole bunch of folks showing up

18 at a meeting or commenting that they need this

19 material in this form because of its unique

20 characteristics, et cetera.

21 It's very hard once you let

22 something on the Board -- on the list, you put
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1 something on the list, to have the kind of

2 conversation we are supposed to have when we

3 initially put it on the list. If we don't

4 have that conversation, things get skewed

5 toward one side, and that's -- that's exactly

6 what the drafters of the law, of the Organic

7 Foods Production Act, were trying to avoid.

8 So I -- I believe it's appropriate

9 to establish an expiration date when we adopt

10 petitions. Petitions are within the realm of

11 the Board. None of the new policies that have

12 been put in place as far as I understand it --

13 and I have been back through all of the

14 training materials and the different memos --

15 none of the materials that we have received

16 have been specific to the petition process.

17 They have been specific to the sunset process.

18 So here we are as a Board asking

19 ourselves, are there enough questions about

20 the production processes associated with

21 magnesium oxide that warrant us going through

22 this same deliberative process five years from
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1 now to make a determination that this material

2 meets the standards and there hasn't been

3 something else that has come along that has --

4 that would make this a safer material or

5 change the manufacturing process in some way.

6 So I would like to introduce a

7 motion at some point when it's appropriate,

8 Mr. Chair, to amend this motion to add a

9 five-year expiration date after the

10 publication of the rule listing this material

11 on the national list. And I would ask for,

12 when appropriate, a second to that motion.

13 CHAIR STONE: Would you restate

14 the motion, the amendment to the motion?

15 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. The

16 amendment would be -- I don't have it in front

17 of me. It's in the minority position.

18 MEMBER SONNABEND: Doesn't the

19 maker of the motion have to accept the

20 amendment?

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: No.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: And the second?
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1 MEMBER FELDMAN: No. Not if I get

2 a second. I wasn't introducing it. I was

3 waiting for the Chair to tell me the

4 appropriate time. But, no, the maker of the

5 motion has to get a second, and then we

6 discuss the second motion. And after that

7 vote, then we go on to discuss the primary

8 motion. And it would require a majority vote,

9 but I guess under our rules a two-thirds vote

10 to amend the motion.

11 So there you have it. To list

12 magnesium oxide at 205.601 with the following

13 annotation, "Until May 1, 2019, five years

14 after, or" -- it should say "or five years

15 after the date it is first allowed" -- sorry?

16 That's it.

17 CHAIR STONE: It does say that.

18 MEMBER FELDMAN: Sorry. Thank

19 you.

20 MEMBER THICKE: I'll second that

21 motion.

22 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion and
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1 a second by Francis for an amendment to set a

2 hard date for this material to come off the

3 list. Is that characterized right?

4 Discussion? Nick?

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: Just sort of a

6 technical question here. We've got two

7 potentially conflicting dates here. Do you

8 mean for five years after the date is first

9 allowed, whichever is later? Because we have

10 two dates now, May 1 --

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: -- and for five

13 years. So whichever is later?

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. Thank you.

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: So would you

16 accept that as a friendly amendment?

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. Thank you.

18 CHAIR STONE: Everybody is clear

19 with that clarification? Harold?

20 MEMBER AUSTIN: Will this

21 constitute a significant change from what has

22 been posted for public commentary?
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1 CHAIR STONE: I yield to the

2 program.

3 MR. McEVOY: No. That would not.

4 That's just a clarification of something that

5 is already on the table, or as part of this

6 minority opinion. So it's not -- I think

7 maybe Lisa needs to clarify this, but my

8 understanding is that the minority position

9 would have to -- in order to be voted on would

10 need a majority of the members to vote to then

11 be able to vote on it to substitute for the

12 majority proposal coming out of the

13 subcommittee.

14 DR. BRINES: Yes, that's correct.

15 So just as a clarification for everyone, at

16 this point the motion is to amend the listing

17 motion. So the focus of the debate should be

18 focused on whether to accept that amendment.

19 If that amendment does not pass, then you

20 would revert back to the original motion.

21 Thanks.

22 CHAIR STONE: Zea?
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you, Mac.

2 This is the point where I'm going to invoke

3 the lyrics to the song that I feel is most

4 appropriate for this event, which is -- I

5 can't sing like Peter Rowan, and so I'm just

6 going to read you a couple of lines. Peter

7 Rowan is a very good singer.

8 "If you ever feel sorrow for the

9 deeds you have done, with no hope for tomorrow

10 in the setting of the sun, I will meet you at

11 Alamo Mission and we can say our prayers."

12 Since we're in San Antonio, I just have to say

13 that I resent the position that the Board will

14 not do a rigorous review every five years in

15 sunset, and I don't believe that every

16 material should be held hostage to people who

17 are unhappy with the sunset process.

18 Therefore, I completely reject

19 this idea of putting an expiration date on

20 this or any other material.

21 Thank you.

22 CHAIR STONE: Colehour?
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1 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you. And

2 thank you, Zea. I think at some level we

3 completely agree, except for the last part of

4 what you said, which is an ultimatum of "it

5 can't happen with any," because your

6 suggestion was, you know, it may or may not be

7 appropriate, and then you're like, but this

8 can't -- this doesn't need to be applied at

9 all. And I think in some cases it does, in my

10 opinion, and in this particular case I think

11 that a reevaluation will be appropriate on

12 considering what has been put forth and

13 discussed already, even up to this point.

14 So I do not disagree that, you

15 know, maybe it does not need to be applied

16 across the board. Maybe, maybe not. But I

17 think that, you know, the opposite doesn't

18 make sense either, in my opinion.

19 CHAIR STONE: Jay? And we do need

20 to move on here.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: You know, I

22 believe the maker of the motion and the
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1 seconder is -- wants to make the process work

2 and wants to facilitate access to materials

3 that can assist organic growers. If anyone

4 could show me where, over the history of this

5 Board, the application of the sunset process,

6 as envisioned by the drafters of the statute

7 and carried out over the last 15-plus years,

8 has been harmful to organic growers and the

9 growth of a 35 or more billion dollar

10 industry, I would like to see that

11 information.

12 This has been a healthy, rigorous

13 debate as part of petitioning and sunset, the

14 exact debate that the drafters envisioned. So

15 that at the end of the day the consumers

16 trusting in the label understood that these

17 issues had been hashed out in the most

18 thorough and honest, scientific way, with

19 growers sitting around the table, consumers

20 bringing their views together. This is

21 healthy. This isn't antagonistic, because we

22 all want the same thing.
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1 I think -- I hope, I truly hope

2 that people believe that. So we're talking

3 about fixing a problem. In fact, what we're

4 doing is undermining the integrity of the

5 label. You may not see it that way, but I

6 hope -- I don't want to be -- I hope I'm wrong

7 about this. I hope consumers will -- this is

8 just a blip in the history and consumers will

9 say, "Oh, what the heck. It doesn't matter."

10 But I don't see it panning out that way.

11 I have never wanted to bring these

12 issues to a forum outside this room. I have

13 always protected the sanctity of this room and

14 this Board to have an honest and open

15 discussion with the most informed audience I

16 know of at any public hearing that I have ever

17 been at over the years, to engage that

18 informed community and do it in a way that

19 ensures that at the end of the day, even

20 though we emerge from this room with

21 disagreements, the consumers that emerge, the

22 environmentalists that emerge, the farmers
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1 that emerge said, "Well, we at least had a

2 real honest and open debate, and everyone had

3 a chance to vote." And at the end of the day,

4 we drove this discussion to consensus, and we

5 did it. And we left it on the list or we took

6 it off the list.

7 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Call the

8 question.

9 MEMBER FELDMAN: That's all we're

10 doing.

11 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Call the

12 question.

13 CHAIR STONE: The question has

14 been called, and the voting starts with Jean.

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: No.

16 MEMBER DICKSON: No.

17 MEMBER BECK: No.

18 MEMBER FAVRE: No.

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

20 MEMBER FULWIDER: No.

21 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

22 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.
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1 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: No.

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: No.

5 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: No.

6 SECRETARY WALKER: No.

7 CHAIR STONE: The Chair votes no.

8 (Pause.)

9 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I'm going to

10 have to -- I'm going to have to doublecheck

11 this here. We got 11 no's and four yeses.

12 Does that sound -- I don't --

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: I've got five

14 yeses.

15 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Okay. Five

16 yeses. Okay.

17 CHAIR STONE: So 10 no, five yes.

18 Motion fails. And so we're back to the

19 original motion to list this as annotated.

20 Further discussion about the material itself?

21 (No response.)

22 Seeing none, the vote starts with
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1 Joe. And take your time going around the

2 table, please.

3 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

4 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

5 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

7 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

8 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

9 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

10 MEMBER TAYLOR: No.

11 MEMBER FELDMAN: No.

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

13 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

14 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

15 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

16 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

17 CHAIR STONE: Yes.

18 SECRETARY WALKER: Thirteen-two.

19 CHAIR STONE: The vote was 13 yes,

20 two no's.

21 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

22 CHAIR STONE: The motion passes.
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1 Thank you.

2 Zea, next up is vinasse.

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you.

4 Okay. We presented a change to the current --

5 to the wording for the vinasse motion, which

6 is on the slide, Michelle. Remember? Yes,

7 not in the proposal.

8 I will read it while you are

9 pulling it up. This is for the classification

10 motion for vinasse, and there is a second

11 motion also. The classification motion is to

12 classify vinasse that does not contain

13 prohibited additives, such as pH adjusters,

14 sanitizers, ammonium compounds, antibiotics,

15 or chlorine materials, and is not fortified

16 with nitrogen as non-synthetic. And I will

17 make that motion.

18 MEMBER AUSTIN: I'll second it.

19 CHAIR STONE: Motion by Zea.

20 Second by Harold.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: And could I

22 start --
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1 CHAIR STONE: Yes.

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: -- out with a

3 clarification on this.

4 CHAIR STONE: Yes, ma'am.

5 MEMBER SONNABEND: I do want to

6 remind the Board what I said yesterday, that

7 if this fails, then vinasse is a -- no longer

8 a subject before this Board. There is nothing

9 else we could do unless someone wanted to come

10 back at the next meeting with a proposal about

11 it being synthetic, and that would -- so since

12 that's relatively unlikely to happen, it will

13 mean that vinasse will be essentially

14 unregulated in the organic community as it is

15 now.

16 Thank you.

17 CHAIR STONE: Any other

18 discussion? Going once, going twice.

19 (No response.)

20 Okay. Voting starts with Carmela.

21 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

22 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

2 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

3 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

4 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

5 MEMBER TAYLOR: No.

6 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

8 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

9 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

10 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

11 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

12 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

13 CHAIR STONE: Yes. Fourteen yes,

14 one no. Motion passes.

15 Zea?

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: Thank you. The

17 second motion is to add specific language in

18 the listing for vinasse in the guidance on

19 materials for organic product production and

20 OP 5034-1. Vinasse may not contain

21 prohibitive additives, such as, but not

22 limited to, pH adjusters, sanitizers, ammonium
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1 compounds, antibiotics, or chlorine materials

2 that are not provided for at 205.601.

3 Nitrogen levels may not be fortified.

4 CHAIR STONE: Is there a second?

5 MEMBER AUSTIN: I'll second that.

6 CHAIR STONE: Second, Harold.

7 Further discussion? Nick?

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. I'd just

9 like to say I have no objection to the motion,

10 but I think it isn't absolutely necessary. I

11 feel the program would do that anyway. And I

12 -- just in the interest of relieving a little

13 bit of, you know, paperwork and burden on all

14 concerned, I would hate to see this become a

15 routinized thing that every time we pass a

16 motion we also pass a motion with regard to

17 something that the program is probably going

18 to do anyway. That's all. But I support the

19 motion.

20 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes. Nick, I

22 understand that concern. I am -- we are only
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1 doing it -- and, yes, it is redundant, but

2 we're doing it because the guidance is only in

3 draft form. And I'm imagining that by the

4 time it comes out in final form there will be

5 some clarification on how someone would

6 request a change to that guidance, so that the

7 Board would not have to do this once it's a

8 final guidance and we know that things will be

9 in it.

10 CHAIR STONE: Anything else,

11 Board?

12 (No response.)

13 Very good. Voting starts with

14 Tracy.

15 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

16 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

17 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

18 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

19 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

20 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

22 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

2 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

3 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

4 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

5 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

6 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

7 CHAIR STONE: Yes.

8 SECRETARY WALKER: Fifteen-zero.

9 CHAIR STONE: Fifteen-aught.

10 Fifteen-love, as they say in tennis. Motion

11 carries.

12 Okay. Zea, laminarin.

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay.

14 Laminarin, the motion coming out of the

15 subcommittee is to classify laminarin as

16 non-synthetic. I will put forward that

17 motion.

18 CHAIR STONE: Motion by Zea.

19 Second? Is there a second?

20 MEMBER BONDERA: I'll second.

21 CHAIR STONE: Colehour second.

22 Any further discussion?
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1 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. Since this

2 is the only motion on the table on laminarin

3 I just want to remind folks that a vote in

4 favor of the motion will mean that the Board

5 will not review laminarin. There are two

6 points to be made here. Any further -- in

7 other words, it would be deemed non-synthetic,

8 and then any form of it will be allowed to be

9 used in organic production.

10 Two points here. One, as we

11 discussed yesterday, just to remind you, there

12 is a chemical residue, sodium sulfate, in this

13 material. It is considered either of

14 technical or functional effect or significant,

15 any way you want to look at it. Choose your

16 category, but it's there.

17 It is there at considerably

18 elevated levels. I mean, significant enough

19 to be -- fall into one of those categories of

20 technical functional effect or significant,

21 which are the terms that are used in the --

22 all of the kinds of draft classification of
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1 materials documents that are floating around.

2 We should not be allowing this as

3 an inert. The inert issue is central to our

4 decisionmaking process in the present. We

5 can't be allowing materials onto the market

6 without evaluating them. I'm not saying we

7 wouldn't allow this, but without evaluating

8 the material as a component of the -- making

9 a component of the material laminarin, and,

10 thus, making the material a synthetic

11 material.

12 Secondly, if this doesn't go -- so

13 I think it's legitimately a synthetic

14 material, whether you describe that as a

15 synthetic that has an inert or a synthetic

16 that has an impurity or a synthetic that is

17 part of the production or a result of the

18 production process by virtue of adding an

19 extractant.

20 But in addition to that, if we

21 don't put it on the list, then we're not going

22 to get to any of the manufacturing practices.
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1 Are there ecological impacts? Are there

2 environmental impacts associated with the

3 laminarin at harvesting, et cetera, et cetera?

4 So that's the reason I will be

5 voting against this motion. But I would like

6 to suggest to the Chair that if this motion

7 were to fail, we should be on record as

8 defining it as synthetic. So we would need a

9 motion, is that right, to define it as

10 synthetic?

11 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, if this

13 motion fails, it goes back to the subcommittee

14 for potentially a TR to determine whether it's

15 synthetic or not, and comes back to this Board

16 at the next meeting for another classification

17 motion as synthetic or not. We are not

18 prepared to say that it's synthetic just

19 because we vote that it's -- if we don't vote

20 that it's non-synthetic.

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. That

22 sounds perfect to me. I would -- I have
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1 actually advocated that process, so that would

2 be the process I would hope we could get

3 behind. So a no vote would ensure that that

4 process would take place.

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIR STONE: Zea, would you

7 clarify that for me, and maybe others?

8 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay.

9 Essentially, if you vote no on the motion

10 today, it's not because you think it's

11 synthetic; it's because you think there's not

12 enough information to make it clear to you

13 that it is non-synthetic. Okay? So you don't

14 -- you don't have enough information.

15 Therefore, it goes back to the

16 subcommittee. The subcommittee, in all

17 likelihood, will request at least a limited

18 TR, maybe a full TR, on this question. The TR

19 will illuminate for us the issues around the

20 impurities, the residues, the ecological

21 impacts, whatever, we ask it for. And then

22 you may come back -- and a proposal will come
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1 to the next meeting.

2 The proposal will still have a

3 listing motion, because that's the first -- I

4 mean, a classification motion, because that's

5 the first step. Maybe you'll read the TR and

6 you go, "Okay. It really is non-synthetic."

7 Maybe you read the TR and go, "Okay. It's

8 synthetic." But we'll vote again on that.

9 We're not making that decision today.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you for that.

11 Miles?

12 MR. McEVOY: Yes. A point of

13 clarification. There are hundreds of

14 materials that are used by organic farmers

15 that are never reviewed by this Board. The

16 majority of the materials used in organic

17 production are natural substances that never

18 come in front of this Board for review or

19 determination.

20 And the NOSB recommendation on

21 classification of materials is used by

22 certification agencies and material review
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1 organizations each and every day to make

2 determinations about whether something is

3 allowed or not, and also the draft guidance

4 that we published that will eventually become

5 final guidance on classification materials.

6 So it seems like there is a

7 distinction between the policy determination

8 versus this substance itself. And I think

9 those two things are getting mixed up here,

10 because by the NOSB's recommendation on

11 classification materials, my understanding is

12 that this substance would be classified as a

13 non-synthetic.

14 So, but just -- the real point is

15 is that there are hundreds of materials -- and

16 this is the job that certifiers and material

17 review organizations are doing each and every

18 day. Those materials never come before this

19 Board for consideration, because this Board's

20 consideration is the purview of the potential

21 for having synthetics on the national list of

22 allowed and prohibited substances.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Miles.

2 Any further discussion?

3 Questions? Zea?

4 MEMBER SONNABEND: Jay wanted me

5 to clarify why this is a petition before this

6 Board in light of what Miles just said. And

7 it is pretty clear to me -- and maybe Lisa

8 will concur with this -- that this was

9 petitioned because it is an aquatic plant

10 extract that is used as a registered

11 pesticide. Aquatic plant extracts are already

12 on 205.601 but as a fertilizing material.

13 And so if it were to be declared a

14 synthetic, it would need to be added for that

15 use. And if it were declared non-synthetic,

16 it has to be a non-synthetic extract, because

17 the aquatic plant extracts that are on the

18 list are considered synthetic extracts because

19 of the alkali without the acid. This has both

20 an alkali and an acid added. Therefore, we

21 think it's neutralized. But the fertilizer

22 ones only have alkali, no acid.
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1 It was petitioned. I mean, the

2 fact that it was petitioned for a review,

3 unlike all the other natural things which

4 aren't petitioned. So we're taking it up.

5 CHAIR STONE: I actually got it,

6 but I didn't think I was going to. It's

7 getting --

8 (Laughter.)

9 Okay. If people are comfortable,

10 which I believe we are, voting starts with

11 Nick.

12 MEMBER MARAVELL: Oh, great. You

13 give me an easy one here, Mac.

14 CHAIR STONE: Okay.

15 MEMBER MARAVELL: No.

16 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

17 MEMBER THICKE: No.

18 MEMBER BONDERA: No.

19 MEMBER TAYLOR: No.

20 MEMBER FELDMAN: No.

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

22 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.
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1 MEMBER AUSTIN: Yes.

2 SECRETARY WALKER: No.

3 MEMBER RICHARDSON: No.

4 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

5 MEMBER BECK: Yes.

6 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.

7 CHAIR STONE: Yes. Eight yes,

8 seven no. Motion fails. So it goes back to

9 committee.

10 Thank you.

11 Okay. While Michelle is getting

12 up methionine -- I believe that's it, right?

13 Zea, you're -- we're good on crops?

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes.

15 CHAIR STONE: Thank you.

16 Time check, one hour. Okay. So

17 methionine. Is the lead on that -- Tracy, do

18 you want to make any opening statements for

19 the Livestock Committee?

20 MEMBER FAVRE: No. I think we had

21 plenty from me yesterday.

22 CHAIR STONE: So as the lead on
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1 methionine, I will read into the record the

2 motion to accept the following amendment at

3 205.603-D, DL methionine, DL methionine

4 hydroxyanalog, and DL methionine hydroxyanalog

5 calcium, CAS Numbers 59518, 583915, 4857447,

6 and 922509, for use only in organic poultry

7 production at the following maximum average

8 pounds per ton of 100 percent synthetic

9 methionine in the diet over the life of the

10 flock -- laying and broiler chickens, two

11 pounds; turkeys and all other poultry, three

12 pounds.

13 I'll make that motion.

14 MEMBER FAVRE: Second.

15 CHAIR STONE: Second, Tracy.

16 Further conversation? Jay?

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

18 So this is a similar conversation to magnesium

19 oxide, on steroids, though, this time. I

20 think there is concern, especially on this,

21 that we get into this treadmill effect where

22 unless we have an expiration date on this
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1 material -- we do a couple of things, and I'm

2 not going to go through the whole explanation

3 that I just did on magnesium oxide.

4 But one of the things that we have

5 been clear on with antibiotics is where there

6 was clarity. It's a really clear statement by

7 the Board that this material needs research

8 attention and research dollars and investment

9 in alternatives and transition tools and, you

10 know, all of the issues around humane

11 treatment of animals. That without clarity

12 from the Board we don't really see this -- I

13 don't see this thing moving off of this

14 dependency that we all, I believe, think we

15 should try to get away from.

16 Now, remember that the petition

17 process -- and we've seen this with a number

18 of materials -- where an expiration date is

19 set, the users of the material come back and

20 they get -- the petitions are extended,

21 similar to the sunset process extending,

22 previously extending allowances on the
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1 national list.

2 This happened at least twice,

3 definitely twice with all of the antibiotics

4 back in 2008, 2011, where the user community

5 came -- and the research community came to the

6 Board and said, "We need an extension." And

7 those extensions were granted for a reasonable

8 amount of time.

9 So I would like to introduce a

10 motion, or someone else among those who feel

11 this way, I'd like to hear some discussion on

12 this about, you know, removing this -- there

13 are a couple of ways we could do this -- refer

14 this back to the subcommittee to -- with the

15 instructions to bring to the Board a proposal

16 to -- just as it's written, the current

17 proposal, with an annotation that allows this

18 material to expire after a five-year period,

19 after the publication of the final rule by the

20 department.

21 So I guess the question is, for

22 me, how do we best promote and advance
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1 alternatives and research into alternatives so

2 that we can reduce and hopefully eliminate

3 reliance on this material? And how do we

4 expedite that rather than -- you know, this is

5 one of those issues that has been around this

6 Board, kicking around for about a decade or

7 more. And so, you know, I believe we have to

8 keep moving in that direction of restricting

9 it and helping to attract research dollars to

10 the alternatives.

11 CHAIR STONE: Tracy?

12 MEMBER FAVRE: It's way too early

13 to sit and be lectured to this morning. I

14 call the question.

15 CHAIR STONE: The question has

16 been called on the original motion.

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, then, I

18 would have to appeal to the Chair the calling

19 of the question. I think more discussion --

20 I apologize that you felt lectured to, but

21 this is for many -- as you heard in testimony,

22 this is connected to a whole range of issues
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1 that are important, and having an expiration

2 date is a critical mechanism.

3 MEMBER BONDERA: I second that.

4 CHAIR STONE: So the question has

5 been called. Nick?

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: What happens if

7 this question is called and it does not

8 prevail? Can another motion be made?

9 CHAIR STONE: I would entertain

10 another motion.

11 MR. McEVOY: You can't -- the only

12 proposal that you can vote on here is the one

13 that has been published. So the -- you have

14 an option to refer this back to the

15 subcommittee, but if -- the only proposal is

16 the one that's published. There is no

17 alternative.

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: How would we

19 refer this back to subcommittee?

20 MR. McEVOY: How would -- you

21 would determine that that's the best way to

22 move forward rather than voting on the
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1 proposal is you want to refer it back to the

2 subcommittee.

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: But do we have

4 to do that -- if we vote on this motion now,

5 and the motion does not pass, can we still

6 make a motion to refer it to subcommittee?

7 I'm just not familiar with procedure.

8 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. That's a

9 Robert's Rules question.

10 MEMBER MARAVELL: If somebody can

11 answer. I'm just asking for clarification.

12 DR. BRINES: Sorry. So the

13 question is whether, if someone moves the

14 previous question and you vote on the motion,

15 whether it can be then motioned back to

16 committee?

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: I think that --

18 the question specifically is, if we are to

19 vote on the proposal as contained in the

20 committee recommendation, and that proposal

21 does not prevail, it fails, can another motion

22 be introduced at that time to refer it back to
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1 subcommittee for additional work?

2 DR. BRINES: I think at that point

3 it would be off the table.

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: So a motion --

5 MEMBER FELDMAN: Get a

6 reconsideration motion, though, to bring it

7 back for reconsideration, with an amendment to

8 refer it back to committee?

9 DR. BRINES: Yes. It would have

10 to be a motion for reconsideration by somebody

11 who was on the prevailing side.

12 CHAIR STONE: And Lisa did advise

13 me that the -- when the question is called, it

14 has to be seconded and approved.

15 DR. BRINES: By a two-thirds

16 majority to end debate.

17 CHAIR STONE: Okay.

18 DR. BRINES: Since there was an

19 objection, you might want to go through that

20 process.

21 CHAIR STONE: Right. Okay.

22 So the question was called. It's
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1 on the table first. So is there a second to

2 calling the question?

3 MEMBER MARAVELL: I have one more

4 point of clarification --

5 CHAIR STONE: Go ahead.

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: -- of Lisa's

7 description, because I'm not a parliamentarian

8 here, so -- so when you say a motion to

9 reconsider would be what would be possible by

10 someone who was on the prevailing side, what

11 is the prevailing side if the motion fails?

12 DR. BRINES: Someone who voted

13 against the motion.

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: And a motion to

15 reconsider would allow what further action?

16 Would that allow us to send it back to

17 subcommittee? I'm looking for a way here to

18 keep this vitally alive.

19 DR. BRINES: Yes. It's getting a

20 little bit complicated. We might have to

21 huddle on that before I give you a definitive

22 answer.
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, would it

2 be best to have that huddle before we go down

3 any further this road? I'd submit that to the

4 Chair.

5 CHAIR STONE: So we have to finish

6 the question question, but maybe we should

7 take a short break and let the

8 parliamentarians discuss where we are and

9 where -- the options to go forward. So we'll

10 come back in 10 minutes.

11 Thanks.

12 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the foregoing

13 matter went off the record at 9:43 a.m. and

14 went back on the record at 9:53 a.m.)

15 CHAIR STONE: Okay. The

16 discussion was that, first, when someone calls

17 the question -- this is a broader sort of a

18 thing -- when someone calls the question, they

19 don't have autonomy to stop the debate. The

20 question has to be seconded and approved by a

21 two-thirds majority.

22 I know that in lots of settings in
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1 boards that we're on, without this much

2 attention being paid to them, that often it

3 works that way. So I'm glad to know that

4 that's the way this Board operates. So just

5 for the future.

6 Tracy?

7 MEMBER FAVRE: In the interest of

8 continuing the conversation, I will withdraw

9 my call for the question, and I would like to

10 encourage this Board to consider the motion as

11 it exists from the proposal.

12 Thank you.

13 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thank you for

14 that.

15 So there is two options. We can

16 vote as is. If there is a motion made to

17 refer this back to committee, technically a

18 motion to refer is a simple majority, not a

19 two-thirds majority. So that is important for

20 the other, we think, referrals later on our

21 agenda. That can be a simple majority, and we

22 truthfully don't have to do the go-arounds
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1 unless we choose to.

2 Tracy?

3 MEMBER FAVRE: In regards to the

4 current motion that came from the proposal, as

5 I understand it, the objection is really about

6 making sure that we have a hard deadline on

7 it, so that we are not in the same position as

8 we have been with other materials where they

9 just keeping getting extended over and over

10 again.

11 I understand the desire to want to

12 try to make sure that this doesn't continue to

13 happen on materials. However, I think it's

14 really important, particularly for this

15 proposal, that we give some indication to the

16 producers out there that we do intend to come

17 up with a compromise that will allow them to

18 work through their issues.

19 For those of you that might want

20 to stand on principle on the removal of

21 synthetic methionine, I understand that

22 desire, and I applaud that desire. But if it
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1 comes at the expense of animal welfare, I say

2 shame on you; that's inappropriate. It's not

3 what we stand for as organic producers. And

4 I would really like to see the proposal, and

5 the motion as it stands, go through, so that

6 we have a workable solution for poultry

7 producers.

8 Thank you.

9 CHAIR STONE: Okay. There's one

10 other aspect to this relative to the magnesium

11 oxide. The minority opinion had it in there

12 -- a hard date -- so it was allowed to be

13 voted on, because it was in play, if you will,

14 as part of the -- as part of the

15 recommendation, if you will. In this case,

16 that is -- that is not the case with

17 methionine.

18 So the program has determined that

19 to be a substantive change, and, therefore, it

20 would not be allowed as an amendment to this

21 motion based on a technicality.

22 Nick?
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: As I stated

2 yesterday, I am in favor of the proposal, but

3 I have reservations. And I think that it

4 would be advisable, in my opinion, not to let

5 this proposal run the risk of not passing. I

6 think it's a good proposal, but I think that

7 there has been a history of this Board, in

8 dealing with methionine, and it has been to

9 reevaluate methionine in a very serious way.

10 And I think that putting a five-year

11 expiration date is something that the Board

12 should consider.

13 And so if referring it back to

14 committee is the only way to achieve that, I

15 think it's unfortunate. I mean, under

16 previous -- what should I say -- under

17 previous Board meetings we have been able to,

18 for example, in Seattle set an expiration

19 date. But I'm not quibbling with the

20 procedure; I'm just saying it's unfortunate

21 that this procedure is going to take more

22 time. But I think that the Board should have
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1 the opportunity to consider a fixed end date,

2 and I think that would also improve the

3 chances of putting a signal out to the

4 research community that this is indeed a very

5 prudent investment for future study and for

6 innovation.

7 So I don't want to see anything

8 adverse happen here. I simply would like the

9 Board to have that opportunity. So I would

10 support sending this back to committee to

11 consider some form of a mandate.

12 And I am not a parliamentarian,

13 and so I leave it up to the others here to say

14 what would be the best way to pursue that,

15 that that would be my -- my desire.

16 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Nick.

17 Others? Francis, I'm sorry.

18 MEMBER THICKE: First, I need a

19 clarification. I don't know for sure -- if

20 the motion fails, can there be a motion made

21 to refer it back to committee by one of the

22 people who --
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1 CHAIR STONE: No, sir.

2 MEMBER THICKE: -- prevailed?

3 CHAIR STONE: No, sir. If the

4 motion fails, it's done.

5 MEMBER THICKE: Okay.

6 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

7 MEMBER THICKE: Well, I'm not --

8 can I continue, please?

9 CHAIR STONE: Yes. I'm sorry.

10 I'm sorry.

11 MEMBER THICKE: I just want to

12 make a statement, though. So I've been on the

13 fence on this issue. I see the need to take

14 care of the animals, no question about it, and

15 make sure they have adequate methionine.

16 However, I see a need to keep the pressure on

17 industry.

18 My concern is that a yes vote will

19 take that pressure off again, and it's going

20 to -- it's not going to accomplish that

21 objective.

22 I would like to see that go to an
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1 average of the lifetime of the flock.

2 However, I think we need a hard expiration

3 date. And so if this fails, I would like to

4 bring forth another -- a new proposal to the

5 subcommittee for a five-year expiration back

6 in subcommittee.

7 CHAIR STONE: And, Lisa, correct

8 me if I'm wrong, but that would require a new

9 petition?

10 DR. BRINES: Yes, that's right.

11 Normally, once the petition is voted on at the

12 Board meeting, in order to raise the issue

13 again a new petition would be submitted with

14 new information that wasn't previously

15 considered by the Board.

16 CHAIR STONE: And I could bring

17 that petition forward with a five-year

18 deadline, which is new information, right?

19 DR. BRINES: Yes. We would have

20 to look at that. I mean, the --

21 MR. McEVOY: Well, it would be a

22 new petition, so you could -- it would just be
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1 a new petition and would start through the

2 process all over again.

3 CHAIR STONE: And, Zea, with --

4 question, Zea. With the new petition,

5 abbreviated petition process, would that come

6 into play here?

7 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, of course

8 the new petition process would make it a

9 little bit easier to petition, because you are

10 petitioning for an annotation rather than for

11 a whole new thing on the national list.

12 However, just asking for a

13 five-year expiration isn't really new

14 information, in my opinion. And so the -- but

15 it's not my call, so the Department would have

16 to evaluate whether a five-year expiration is

17 really new enough information to bring a

18 petition before the Board in any sort of

19 priority.

20 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: Well, we've had a

22 finding by the program that it's substantially
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1 new. So in some respects that sets the

2 framework for it being new information.

3 I think the issues around research

4 and the ability to move or incentivize the

5 research community and innovators to come up

6 with new ideas is something that hasn't been

7 addressed by the petition in the past. So I

8 would argue that if Francis or another Board

9 member would come forward with a petition and

10 a five-year limitation or expiration, whatever

11 you call it, I hope the program would view

12 that as a new petition with new information.

13 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

14 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I would like

15 to see us vote in favor of this

16 recommendation. We have round and round and

17 round on it for an awful long time. And I am

18 concerned, obviously, for the health of the

19 birds, their nutrition needs. And the breeds

20 that we're using nowadays, whether they're

21 organic or conventional, they're all -- their

22 needs are such that the methionine presently,
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1 the way we're doing organic agriculture, is

2 really needed.

3 And to keep on delaying it by

4 these mechanisms really is sort of a concern

5 for me. I know that we're all a bit

6 aggravated that the sunset and all that stuff

7 has taken place, and we're getting edicts from

8 Washington. I mean, I've been as frustrated

9 as the rest of us, although, you know, I stay

10 quiet and well behaved sometimes.

11 But I don't think that we should

12 -- we should use our concerns and the politics

13 of all of that at the expense of things that

14 are needed for the organic industry. I

15 believe that five years from now the sunset

16 review that the methionine will get under the

17 normal procedures that it will go through

18 under the new sunset, or whatever happens to

19 it in the next few months or years, will

20 adequately address the concerns of both the --

21 of both sides of the issues, and that we will

22 get a reasonable -- I mean, an excellent
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1 review, no matter which one of the sunset

2 things we end up with in the next few years.

3 But I'm assuming this one will continue on the

4 way it is.

5 CHAIR STONE: So I've got two or

6 three hands. I would also suggest that the

7 irony here is by the time a petition is put

8 forth, reviewed by the program, sent to the

9 committee, we are going to add a year or much

10 more before we have the opportunity to

11 readdress this issue.

12 I've got Zea, and then Nick, and

13 then Harold, and then Tracy. So Zea.

14 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. Thank

15 you. I agree with Jean pretty much

16 completely. And along the lines of what Mac

17 said, I just want to add that that year or two

18 that is added is going to keep a policy going

19 that does not have the best interest of the

20 birds at heart, and, as we have heard

21 testimony for, is not working and creating

22 conditions where the animals are not happy and
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1 healthy.

2 And so I really think we need to

3 make this change, so that the life of the

4 flock average can be implemented in the field.

5 But I do suggest that an alternative to

6 finding -- to submitting a new petition and

7 delaying the whole thing would be to -- for

8 people who want it to go back to subcommittee

9 to prevail upon the subcommittee before we

10 vote to withdraw it and take it back, and I

11 don't know exactly if that's amendment or

12 referral motion with a majority, but to do

13 that before we vote to see if it can go back

14 to the committee rather than trying to do

15 something after we vote and then repetition,

16 which, you know, as was mentioned adds years.

17 CHAIR STONE: Nick?

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. Zea

19 anticipated what I wanted to say. I'd like to

20 state it the following way. I think that

21 under the circumstances the best thing to do

22 would be to have a vote on whether or not to
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1 send this back to subcommittee. If that vote

2 prevails, then that's what happens. If that

3 vote does not prevail, then we should be able

4 to vote on the petition as is.

5 So could I simply get

6 clarification from the Chair if that's a

7 possible scenario, and then I would

8 respectfully ask that we withdraw the motion

9 and try to go that way. But -- so could I

10 find out if that scenario I outlined is

11 possible, if first we vote on referral to

12 committee; if that fails, then we can vote on

13 the motion as is.

14 CHAIR STONE: Yes, we can do that.

15 And the referral is a simple majority, I

16 remind you.

17 MEMBER MARAVELL: Is there any

18 willingness on the part of the person who made

19 the motion to entertain that procedure?

20 CHAIR STONE: Why don't we get a

21 little more input. I've got several hands up

22 with the current conversation. So now I'm
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1 back to Harold.

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: You know, I think

3 we saw some pretty good testimony, both

4 through written and through oral, on this

5 issue. And I think for me the most important

6 part of it right now is the health and

7 well-being of the flock. You know, I know

8 we've dealt with this material. I think we've

9 made tremendous progress over the last couple

10 of years since I've been on the Board, and I

11 applaud the members of the Livestock Committee

12 for that.

13 But I think right now the animal

14 welfare probably should be the one thing that

15 we're looking at. I mean, we saw the photos,

16 we saw the pictures, and we know that the

17 testimonies were coming from the heart. I

18 think to do anything other than that I think

19 would be turning our backs on that group of

20 organic stakeholders that have brought us

21 their heart and souls and their testimonies to

22 this committee and to this Board.
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1 The other thing that I would like

2 to just briefly touch upon is I really am

3 appalled by the process of wanting to do the

4 five-year extensions and deadlines. Having

5 lived through it with the antibiotics, it

6 takes the materials outside of the scope of

7 the sunset process. I think with the sunset

8 process, as we showed yesterday in the

9 Handling Subcommittee, with the two-step

10 process that we are now under, gives us a very

11 solid mechanism to take in -- in a material

12 like this -- it looks like we're having a

13 separate Board meeting over in the corner.

14 But I think we have the vehicle in

15 place. I think we can have solid testimony,

16 solid discussion, as these materials come up

17 for sunset review. It's a little distracting

18 with the guys in the corner, but it's okay.

19 Anyway, Mac, that's my two cents.

20 I just think stepping outside of the sunset

21 process with these continued annotation and

22 expiration dates is a travesty to the process
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1 itself.

2 CHAIR STONE: Tracy?

3 Gentlemen, if you all would like

4 to join us, we're having a discussion here.

5 MEMBER FAVRE: I would like to

6 state for the record that I would certainly

7 prefer to see this referred back to committee

8 if I thought this proposal was going to fail.

9 I'm not convinced of that yet.

10 But I want to address a comment

11 that was brought up in regards to -- I think

12 it was Francis made the comment about keeping

13 the pressure up. I said this the other day in

14 the comments, and I'll reiterate it. The

15 broiler people are already unhappy at the two

16 pounds, even as an average over the life of

17 the bird. It is not sufficient for their

18 needs. They are already desperately looking

19 for alternatives to augment what they are

20 going to be currently allowed even with this

21 proposal.

22 There is continued pressure on
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1 them to find solutions. By voting this

2 proposal through, we are not letting up the

3 pressure. They are continuously looking for

4 alternatives. There is progress on the

5 research right now.

6 That is not going to suddenly stop

7 just because we have basically changed the

8 application of the limits. The application of

9 the limits, in my mind, were completely about

10 animal welfare. As I said the other day, we

11 have created this circumstance by refusing to

12 allow an omnivore to eat like an omnivore.

13 And I think that we need to

14 recognize that this is more about our

15 frustration and consternation with the revised

16 sunset policy rather than with the proposal

17 itself. And I, along with Harold, would like

18 us to have faith in the system. If we choose

19 at the time of sunset to bring forth a motion

20 to remove a material, we have the option to do

21 that.

22 We have the control and the
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1 ability to review the material in whatever

2 depth and detail we wish to at sunset. So

3 let's please not stall an issue and a proposal

4 out that needs to be brought forward and we

5 need resolution on in order to comfort

6 ourselves with our frustrations about sunset.

7 CHAIR STONE: We've got Colehour,

8 then Francis, then Wendy.

9 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes. I don't

10 know, in response to Tracy's comment, if Mr.

11 Chair, you would like to engage in what we

12 have done here before, a quick straw poll of

13 where -- like she indicated, of the motion.

14 CHAIR STONE: Not yet.

15 Francis?

16 MEMBER THICKE: Well, first, I'd

17 like to make it clear that for me this is not

18 about procedure, not about sunset. It's about

19 I think we need to keep that pressure on. And

20 I -- without a hard expiration date, I'm not

21 going to be able to support it.

22 So I make a motion we refer it
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1 back to committee.

2 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion to

3 refer it back to committee. Is there a

4 second?

5 MEMBER MARAVELL: I second that

6 motion.

7 CHAIR STONE: Second by Nick.

8 Further discussion?

9 (No response.)

10 I was going to offer an option,

11 based on the animal welfare of this issue,

12 that we could vote the motion -- we could

13 allow the birds to have -- allow the growers

14 to manage their birds in a more appropriate

15 manner. And a petition could be brought

16 forward for a hard-fast date, while the birds

17 are being managed in a better condition as an

18 option here.

19 Any other discussion on the motion

20 to --

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'm sorry. Could

22 you repeat that?
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1 CHAIR STONE: Someone could bring

2 forth a petition from the committee to create

3 a hard-fast date before -- while the birds are

4 being properly, or more appropriately fed, I

5 should say, as a way to get the birds' welfare

6 taken care of while we debate the date.

7 Other discussion? John?

8 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I like that

9 idea.

10 CHAIR STONE: So we have a motion

11 on the floor, and I wish we could continue the

12 debate with the Colehour thought of straw

13 vote, if you would, to see where -- again, I

14 think there are several of us that are very

15 concerned about the welfare of the animals,

16 and they are the ones that are going to suffer

17 here while we tinker with the process of a

18 date and motivation for change.

19 Francis?

20 MEMBER THICKE: Could you clarify

21 -- so your suggestion is that we vote for the

22 original petition -- original proposal, and
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1 then meanwhile we pursue a petition for a hard

2 date?

3 CHAIR STONE: Yes, sir. I think

4 that's a --

5 MEMBER THICKE: Could I ask the

6 program if they would be willing to consider

7 such a petition?

8 DR. BRINES: Yes. I think with

9 any petition that we receive we look at the

10 eligibility and the complete list guidelines.

11 For things that have been previously

12 petitioned, we evaluate any previous Board

13 recommendations to ensure there is new

14 information. So if there's new information

15 which is a basis for the petition, we would

16 forward that to the subcommittee for further

17 deliberation.

18 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Other

19 conversation?

20 Jay?

21 MEMBER FELDMAN: I can't recall

22 what you said about Colehour's proposal, how
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1 you --

2 CHAIR STONE: He was suggesting a

3 straw poll to see which way we think this

4 thing is going before we make some alternation

5 motion. But now we have a motion on the

6 floor.

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: Are you in favor

8 of doing that or --

9 CHAIR STONE: I'm okay with that.

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

11 CHAIR STONE: I'm not sure exactly

12 how to do that. If there is a -- if it were

13 made to -- if the motion that's on the floor

14 were to be withdrawn, it would give us more

15 flexibility in crafting a fix here, frankly.

16 MEMBER THICKE: So I will

17 temporarily withdraw that emotion. Motion.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MEMBER MARAVELL: I second that

20 emotion.

21 (Laughter.)

22 CHAIR STONE: Good. Okay. So
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1 with the options that I see -- and so everyone

2 at this table and in this room is getting the

3 fact that there needs to be some pressure, if

4 you will, and how best to bring some closure

5 to this, as I stated yesterday, this ad

6 nauseam debate by the Board of this material.

7 But the welfare of the birds that are out

8 there is happening while we are doing what

9 we're doing.

10 So I don't see any problem with

11 someone coming forth with some hard date. If

12 that were to be a workable solution, we can

13 get the birds taken care of. So I'm

14 suggesting that with that framework I ask --

15 I guess it's a show of hands? Is that how a

16 straw poll -- a show of hands that if we work

17 to -- if the subcommittee works to petition

18 this Board -- so it doesn't have to come from

19 the community.

20 We're doing this ourselves. We're

21 managing the conversation ourselves with the

22 amended petition process that Zea and we voted
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1 on yesterday. It's an internal conversation

2 that -- but we get the birds in a better

3 condition. How many would be in favor of

4 that?

5 Francis?

6 MEMBER THICKE: You're sort of

7 insinuating that the program is going to

8 accept that discussion in this -- that

9 petition. And I'm a little unclear that the

10 program is going to accept that petition, so

11 --

12 MEMBER SONNABEND: And I have a

13 point of clarification about that, too, that

14 I'd like to ask the program.

15 CHAIR STONE: Please do.

16 MEMBER SONNABEND: I mean,

17 normally, when we approve a recommendation

18 such as the revised petition process, we have

19 to wait until it's final and comes out in the

20 Federal Register that we can streamline a

21 petition for an annotation change.

22 So if the Department says now,
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1 yes, if it's just a petition for an annotation

2 change, we will follow the guidelines that are

3 in the NOSB recommendation to only answer, you

4 know, six of the questions instead of all 13,

5 then that would work. But if we have to

6 operate under the old thing where you have to

7 do a complete full petition for even an

8 annotation change, then it becomes a lot more

9 difficult, and so I'd like the program to

10 clarify that, please.

11 MR. McEVOY: Well, first of all,

12 if there is a recommendation on methionine

13 that goes to the program, then the program

14 would look at that recommendation to determine

15 what's the best course to move forward,

16 whether or not to go into rulemaking, to make

17 the changes to the -- to the rates of

18 methionine allowed in organic poultry

19 production or not.

20 So remember that this is a

21 recommendation to the Board that goes to the

22 USDA for consideration of how best to proceed
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1 and respond to that recommendation.

2 In terms of petitions, there is --

3 we receive many petitions, and they are

4 evaluated to determine how to move them

5 through the process. So we would consider a

6 new petition just like any other petition, and

7 do it in a fair and complete manner, like we

8 do for other petitions.

9 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, but what

10 we approved yesterday changes the requirements

11 of a new petition for an annotation change a

12 bit.

13 MR. McEVOY: Again, that's a

14 recommendation back to the program, and we'll

15 -- it seems like a great recommendation. We

16 have no concerns about it, but there is a

17 process for us to then get that new -- that

18 recommendation implemented.

19 CHAIR STONE: And subsequent time

20 delay while that's happening as far as -- so,

21 Francis, as far as there is still a delay,

22 there is still time, if there's -- if it's two
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1 years before a motion to set a date can be

2 realized, all the way to the table at this

3 stage of the process, then the date might be

4 adjusted accordingly to give time for

5 rulemaking for that date to be effective. It

6 wouldn't have to be five years after that

7 date; it could be some other, quote,

8 "arbitrary date."

9 So why is everybody looking at me?

10 No.

11 So I guess I'd like to -- with

12 that in mind as an option, I'd be curious --

13 so there's a general sense that the birds are

14 the ones that are a concern here while we do

15 our administrative duties as Board members.

16 Are people willing to move this recommendation

17 for the welfare of the animals while the

18 administrative changes can be implemented as

19 discussed on hard date issue? I see seven

20 hands.

21 So I feel we should refer this --

22 I feel the motion to refer it back to
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1 committee is a shorter timeframe to

2 potentially get the birds -- the producers the

3 ability to effect the rations for the birds,

4 would be the shortest timeframe would be to

5 refer it back to committee to come back in the

6 fall.

7 Is that right? Nick?

8 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, I'm going

9 to make this comment, and if the program does

10 not agree I don't choose to pursue it. But my

11 understanding is that in the statute that we

12 are, as a Board, entitled to set the

13 procedures for petitions. And it appears that

14 this is a petition, and that some of our

15 procedures are being set by the program.

16 Now, I'm asking this very

17 respectfully, that if the -- if the program

18 could see their way clear, that we could do

19 both right now -- approve the motion as

20 proposed and add -- under a procedure that we

21 would sanction, and add the extension through

22 a five-year period -- I would consider that in
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1 the best interests of everyone.

2 But, as I said, this would have to

3 be with the concurrence of the program, if

4 they could see their way clear to do that. I

5 do not think that this would be something that

6 we would set -- that we would do this on

7 everything, but this is something that we

8 would want to consider doing in this specific

9 case to accomplish the will of everybody on

10 the Board.

11 So I just respectfully ask that

12 question.

13 CHAIR STONE: We're going to take

14 a don't-leave-the-room five-minute recess,

15 please.

16 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the foregoing

17 matter went off the record at 10:25 a.m. and

18 went back on the record at 10:30 a.m.)

19 CHAIR STONE: The program was

20 asked for clarification or -- why don't you

21 all tell us what you huddled about?

22 MR. McEVOY: Yes. Okay. So it's
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1 our role at AMS to ensure the fairness of the

2 whole process, that everybody has the same

3 access to information, the public has the same

4 process, whether they're here at the meeting

5 or just anywhere in the United States.

6 So last summer when we were

7 talking with the Board about the upcoming

8 changes to the sunset process, we talked about

9 changes to the -- updating the petition

10 guidelines. We have been supportive of an

11 expedited, streamlined way for petitions to

12 remove, so we have been supporting that

13 process.

14 We support the recommendation that

15 was passed yesterday, and we have to implement

16 that. The current petition guidelines were

17 published in the Federal Register Notice in

18 2007. And in order for us to implement these

19 new recommendations that we support, we have

20 to publish a new Federal Register Notice, so

21 everyone understands what that process is and

22 has the same access to the information.
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1 That, I understand, is going to be

2 expedited. And you'll remember this is the

3 glacial speed of the python that we are

4 talking about, but -- so an expedited move

5 through the python is for a couple of months

6 before we'd be able to publish a new Federal

7 Register Notice that would then take the place

8 of the 2007 petition guidelines that are the

9 current ones that are being operated under.

10 So we support the recommendation.

11 We have to go through a process to implement

12 it. I hope that answers your question.

13 MEMBER MARAVELL: Not directly,

14 unfortunately.

15 CHAIR STONE: I'll attempt an

16 interpretation, that a petition by a

17 subcommittee member could be brought forth

18 during this term to be effective at the next

19 Board meeting, because there is interest to

20 make that happen, and it's a clear and open

21 process. It just has to be on the work plan

22 of the subcommittee.
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1 Nick?

2 MEMBER MARAVELL: So to clarify,

3 then, if we add this today, we will be

4 discussing subcommittee work plans. If we add

5 this to the work plan, the program anticipates

6 putting out new guidelines for the petition

7 process. That would allow the subcommittee to

8 submit a petition for the very next meeting,

9 and that petition process could be somewhat

10 abbreviated because it would only be a

11 petition for an annotation.

12 And now I'm going to make a leap

13 of logic here, but that this would basically

14 affect the same -- similar thing as referring

15 this back to subcommittee. But it would allow

16 more flexibility in providing methionine,

17 synthetic methionine, to poultry right now.

18 I understand all of that. My

19 original question was a little bit different,

20 but I understand all of that. My original

21 question was, can we do it all right here,

22 right now? But it does not appear that that
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1 was the answer from the program.

2 So I -- but I appreciate your

3 willingness to accommodate, as much as you

4 can, what it is that the Board might want to

5 achieve.

6 CHAIR STONE: And there is one

7 other step to the way I characterize it is the

8 petition has to be accepted and forwarded to

9 the subcommittee, so there is another time lag

10 in there, not just as clean as I characterized

11 it a moment ago.

12 Colehour?

13 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, Mr.

14 Chair. And I just wanted to -- and I

15 apologize if I should have done it before we

16 had our last little break -- but I really

17 second what Nick put forth as what I see as an

18 opportunity for simplification. I really

19 think this idea of a five-year expiration

20 amendment does not affect any of the involved

21 interests to a great extent, and it does

22 exactly what everybody said regarding -- it's
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1 a minor change that really allows for the

2 topic to be dealt with.

3 I really feel that within OFPA the

4 materials face a five-year sunset review, and

5 that's the reason that we're, you know, like

6 it says, reduce the -- you know, the step-down

7 process with methionine requires reducing it,

8 and I think that adding a five-year expiration

9 date does not -- and I apologize if, after the

10 fact, based on the program's huddle that they

11 have determined otherwise -- it does not

12 substantially alter the subjects or issues

13 involved in the proposal in my opinion. And

14 I just really feel like we have this

15 opportunity to make it simple, frankly.

16 CHAIR STONE: Francis?

17 MEMBER THICKE: Well, I would have

18 to agree. If you look at the yes and no vote

19 on the initial -- original petition, this --

20 what we're talking about is right in the

21 middle. It takes both sides and brings it

22 right to the middle. It's not really new
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1 information. It's not anything radical. If

2 it were outside of one side or the other, I

3 could understand it. But this is just a --

4 kind of a little compromise here. That's

5 nothing new.

6 So I think it's overly rigid,

7 frankly. I'm concerned about that. And I

8 actually have to say I didn't understand the

9 whole circuit of logic about the petitions.

10 Maybe I'm too new to understand all that.

11 So I don't know if I'm at the

12 point where I should now introduce that motion

13 to bring it back to the subcommittee, or if

14 the other alternative, which I didn't

15 understand, is a better one. Maybe somebody

16 can help me out here.

17 CHAIR STONE: So, Tracy? So the

18 other alternative is to approve the motion on

19 the table, knowing that the subcommittee is

20 going to bring a petition as soon as they can

21 to this Board to set a hard-fast date, or it

22 goes back to -- that we make a -- we move it
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1 back to Committee and it comes back in the

2 fall with this same debate to be had.

3 Tracy?

4 MEMBER FAVRE: Just a point or a

5 question for the program. Do we have the

6 option to appeal the decision of it being a

7 substantive change, to put in a hard and fast

8 date in the motion? I mean, can we get some

9 information about that?

10 MR. McEVOY: Can you repeat the

11 question, please?

12 MEMBER FAVRE: Several of us here

13 feel as though, since it's going to sunset in

14 five years anyway, putting a hard and fast

15 date of five years into the motion wouldn't

16 be, in my opinion, a substantive change. It

17 may be different from what was posted, but

18 it's not really different in practicality as

19 to what would likely happen for the material.

20 I think we've heard from you that

21 you feel that that is a substantive change,

22 and so I'm asking if we can sort of appeal
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1 that decision.

2 MR. McEVOY: Yes. It is

3 definitely a substantive change. It's very

4 different than what was proposed. What is

5 proposed was a change to the annotation from

6 the pounds per ton to an average over the life

7 of the bird. There was no talk about an

8 expiration date.

9 The process for -- of sunset

10 review and renewal is that every substance

11 that's on the national list is thoroughly

12 reviewed by the National Organic Standards

13 Board every five years. An expiration date is

14 a very different effect than the sunset review

15 and renewal process.

16 So no one had the opportunity to

17 consider that in -- coming up to the meeting.

18 There was no one that could submit written or

19 oral public comments on that particular

20 proposal, so it's definitely a substantive

21 change that cannot be considered at this

22 meeting. If you want to consider that, you
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1 will have to go back to your subcommittee.

2 CHAIR STONE: Tracy? And we're --

3 I'm watching the clock a little tighter here.

4 MEMBER FAVRE: Sorry. Just I

5 think maybe an unintended consequence of this

6 is that we are going to have -- as I

7 understand from an earlier conversation, it

8 was allowed on the other material because

9 there was a minority opinion that stated that

10 as a possibility. So I think potentially an

11 unintended consequence of this decision is we

12 might end up with minority opinions on every

13 single material. That includes a hard stop as

14 a suggestion.

15 So that's just something to think

16 about. That's going to force us into

17 potentially having minority opinions on every

18 material if we're not careful.

19 CHAIR STONE: Okay. So we have

20 two options. We can send it back to committee

21 to come back with the variable rate and a

22 hard-fast date in the fall, or we can approve
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1 the motion on the table and come back as soon

2 as we can with a hard-fast date to be voted on

3 separately. So we can -- yes, they will be

4 voted on together, if it goes back to

5 committee. They will be voted on separately

6 if we do it the second way.

7 Francis, and then I'm going to

8 wrap up.

9 MEMBER THICKE: Okay. I make a

10 motion that we refer this back to committee.

11 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion to

12 refer this back to committee. Is there a

13 second?

14 MEMBER MARAVELL: I second the

15 motion.

16 CHAIR STONE: Even though -- is

17 there more discussion? Nick?

18 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, I would be

19 willing to continue to work towards a solution

20 that could be more expeditious. If there are

21 other suggestions -- I thought Zea had one

22 that would get us pretty close to that, but
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1 I'm -- what I'm saying is I'm seconding this

2 motion, but I'm also wiling, if anybody has

3 additional ways in which it appears that we

4 could get to where we want to go, I'd be happy

5 to consider those.

6 CHAIR STONE: So I'm thinking we

7 can't craft that at the microphone, frankly.

8 Jean?

9 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I'll be voting

10 against the motion to send it back to

11 subcommittee. I think a much more sensible

12 alternative is to vote in favor of the present

13 motion on the floor, thinking of the health of

14 the birds over the long time and the need to

15 spread out the methionine from the young

16 months to the older ones, and allow the

17 subcommittee to work on a petition.

18 CHAIR STONE: Jay? Last comment.

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'll be voting

20 for the motion. I think separating these two

21 -- unfortunately, though I'd like to see that

22 as a viable option -- has too many unknowns
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1 associated with it. We have already seen the

2 difficulties of moving something through the

3 regulatory process to final rulemaking. And

4 given the way the straw vote went, it's

5 unlikely that the motion for a five-year

6 authorization would prevail -- a five-year

7 expiration would prevail.

8 That's unfortunate. I think,

9 again, the -- to remind you, the drafters of

10 the law understood that it wanted to bring

11 along as close to consensus of the group as

12 possible, and this is just one of those hard

13 examples. If we had a little more

14 flexibility, as Tracy suggested, I think the

15 process could go much more smoothly, and we'd

16 only bring motions that are of a serious

17 nature such as this to the full Board for

18 consideration of expiration annotations.

19 CHAIR STONE: Okay. And I would

20 also suggest that the -- if it does go back to

21 the subcommittee, it can be brought forth in

22 two separate motions, one for the variable
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1 rate and one for a date. So it doesn't have

2 to be coupled into one motion coming out of

3 committee.

4 So with that, we said this is a

5 simple majority. But because of the

6 sensitivity of this conversation, I'm going to

7 take a roll call vote, and we start with

8 Wendy. This is to send it back to -- this is

9 an amendment to send it back to committee.

10 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

11 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

12 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

13 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: I'm really

16 confused, so I think I'm abstaining. Well,

17 no.

18 CHAIR STONE: Your vote is no.

19 Clarify, okay.

20 MEMBER SONNABEND: Yes, it's no.

21 (Laughter.)

22 MEMBER AUSTIN: No.
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1 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: No.

2 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

3 MEMBER RICHARDSON: No.

4 MEMBER DICKSON: No.

5 MEMBER BECK: No.

6 MEMBER FAVRE: No.

7 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

8 CHAIR STONE: Yes.

9 SECRETARY WALKER: I've got eight.

10 Eight. Eight yes.

11 CHAIR STONE: We have eight yes,

12 seven no's. That's a simple majority, so it

13 goes back to committee.

14 Thank you.

15 So having worked through that, we

16 -- the next proposal, so if my notes are

17 right, any of the motions that are -- any of

18 the proposals that are -- there's a motion to

19 refer back to committee, we can do in the form

20 of a simple majority. I'm going to do, in

21 essence of time, because we don't have much,

22 I'm going to say yea and nay. If there's any
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1 question of whether it's clear one way or the

2 other, then we'll take a roll call vote, if

3 that's acceptable.

4 Okay. Tracy, acidified sodium

5 chlorite.

6 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes. Joe Dickson

7 is the lead on this. Joe, I'm going to let

8 you bring forth the motion, please.

9 MEMBER DICKSON: I'd like to make

10 a motion to refer the proposal on acidified

11 sodium chlorite back to the Livestock

12 Committee.

13 MEMBER THICKE: I second.

14 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion and

15 a second. Is there any conversation?

16 (No response.)

17 All in favor say aye.

18 (Chorus of ayes.)

19 Any opposed?

20 (No response.)

21 Hearing no opposed, motion

22 carries.
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1 Next?

2 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay. The next

3 material is chlorine materials in aquatic

4 livestock production. Again, Joe, you're the

5 lead on this.

6 MEMBER DICKSON: I make a motion

7 to refer the recommendation on chlorine for

8 aquatic animal production back to the

9 Livestock Subcommittee.

10 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion to

11 refer it back to committee. Is there a

12 second?

13 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Second.

14 CHAIR STONE: Second by Jean. Any

15 further conversation?

16 (No response.)

17 All in favor say aye.

18 (Chorus of ayes.)

19 Any opposed?

20 (No response.)

21 Hearing no opposed, motion

22 approved.
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1 Next?

2 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay. Get the

3 train rolling. The next one is tocopherols in

4 aquatic animal protection. Colehour and I are

5 the lead on that. Colehour, do you want to

6 make the motion, or would you rather I do?

7 MEMBER BONDERA: Go ahead.

8 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay. I'd like to

9 make a motion that we refer this proposal back

10 to the Livestock Subcommittee.

11 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion to

12 refer tocopherols back to the Livestock

13 Subcommittee. Is there a second?

14 MEMBER BONDERA: Second.

15 CHAIR STONE: Second, Colehour.

16 Any further conversation? Jay?

17 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes. I was

18 wondering if -- Jean, I don't know if you want

19 to -- if you're interested in the language on

20 instructions when we refer this back to

21 subcommittee, if that's still something of

22 interest. We had talked about a statement,
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1 which I can read.

2 So I'd like to propose an

3 amendment, and I'm not sure I have the final

4 version in front of me.

5 MEMBER FAVRE: Jay, I have the

6 language if you want me to read it.

7 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. Is that

8 okay? Thank you.

9 MEMBER FAVRE: There was language

10 discussed that a motion be made to refer back

11 -- the material back to the Livestock

12 Committee, and that the subcommittee be

13 instructed to reconsider its proposal and make

14 a determination on the future action after the

15 NOP publishes aquaculture final regulations.

16 And, two, the Livestock

17 Subcommittee requests and receives updated TRs

18 as needed for aquaculture material use and

19 revises the materials checklist in response to

20 public comment and Board discussion from the

21 spring 2014 meeting, which includes

22 consideration of the regulations and the TR.
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1 The Board would then welcome a

2 proposal that integrates all views related to

3 specific aquaculture systems and species.

4 That was the crafted language.

5 I think, as part of this, I don't

6 disagree in principle with all the language in

7 this. I do feel like it's a little bit overly

8 prescriptive. I took, and I think all the

9 subcommittee took, extensive and detailed

10 notes based on the comments we received

11 yesterday. But it is our intention that we

12 would be reviewing these materials in the

13 context of the new standards when they come

14 out. And I don't know if that gets you where

15 you want to go or not, Jay.

16 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'm not

17 comfortable with this level of prescription

18 either, although we added words like "as

19 needed." And I believe when this -- at least

20 the intent was when this was written was

21 intended to capture the conversation that we

22 all had. It wasn't intended to add anything.
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1 I think this would be helpful. I

2 mean, you know, some on the board have felt

3 that we should really get better petitions

4 from the petitioner. But this I think would

5 be a middle ground to at least codify what we

6 did discuss, and so it's on the record and in

7 some succinct form so people don't have to

8 wade back through the transcript to know what

9 the intent of the Board is. That was the

10 intent behind it.

11 CHAIR STONE: Might I suggest that

12 this be a separate motion, separate from being

13 coupled to any particular material, as a -- so

14 that the subcommittee can address it, know the

15 intent of the Board, the intent of the

16 conversation is expressed in this, in general,

17 not coupled to any one material. Tracy?

18 MEMBER FAVRE: Can we do that in

19 the form of a resolution after the proposal --

20 or the motion is made to return it to

21 committee?

22 CHAIR STONE: I like that.
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1 Zea?

2 MEMBER SONNABEND: So I don't even

3 know if this motion is on the floor or not.

4 But I am completely opposed to the

5 prescription notion that the standards have to

6 be out first, as I said the other day.

7 CHAIR STONE: So, Jay, if you'll

8 allow, let's move through the -- let's get the

9 -- Colehour?

10 MEMBER BONDERA: I'm not sure I

11 agree with the process that's occurring. I

12 personally was going to suggest that it be --

13 this be added as a friendly amendment language

14 to all of these, so we didn't have to discuss

15 it every time and that it was considered as a

16 friendly amendment.

17 But if we're going to vote on it

18 as a resolution, and it's not going to be done

19 in this kind of way, the referral back to

20 committee, which is just a simple majority,

21 then I think we are facing a different

22 question as a resolution and a longer
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1 conversation, and I'm not sure that that's

2 going to be as smooth or comfortable.

3 CHAIR STONE: So a motion was made

4 to couple this to each of the following

5 materials, not the first two.

6 MEMBER FAVRE: Point of order. I

7 don't know that Colehour actually made a

8 motion. Did he?

9 CHAIR STONE: Jay did.

10 MEMBER FELDMAN: I made the

11 motion. I don't think I got a second.

12 CHAIR STONE: It wasn't seconded,

13 so we're still sort of in limbo here.

14 MEMBER BONDERA: I second Jay's

15 motion.

16 CHAIR STONE: So to couple this to

17 each -- clarification, Jay, is that to couple

18 this statement with each material?

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: You know, there

20 were different ways it could be done. But if

21 there were to be a motion, I think it would

22 have to come prior to the vote, which might be
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1 a little awkward, on each material.

2 MEMBER AUSTIN: Mac?

3 CHAIR STONE: Harold?

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: Since the voting

5 has already started, and we've already got a

6 couple of materials where I could move through

7 it, I think this would be out of order.

8 CHAIR STONE: That's why I

9 suggested this as a -- as its own item to be

10 approved or not after we get the referrals

11 done.

12 MEMBER FELDMAN: I don't see --

13 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: I'm not sure I

15 understand this being out of order. A motion

16 was on the table for specific material

17 approval, and a motion was made to amend that

18 motion by attaching this language. That

19 requires a second, and then a majority vote.

20 So I'm not sure why that would be

21 out of order.

22 CHAIR STONE: No. I wasn't saying
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1 it was out of order. It's just --

2 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay.

3 CHAIR STONE: -- it's complicated.

4 So there is a motion and a second to couple

5 this language with the referral. Motion?

6 Tracy?

7 MEMBER FAVRE: Just a point of

8 clarity. Colehour did ask for it to be

9 attached to each referral. And since one has

10 already been done, I think that was Harold's

11 point about being out of order. If we're

12 doing it going forward, or -- I mean, we have

13 already voted to send the first material back

14 to committee, and that is already done and

15 it's gone. So I don't know that we can go

16 back now and reattach it. I mean, we probably

17 should have done it back at that material.

18 MEMBER BONDERA: I agree. I

19 agree. I apologize. I was trying to suggest

20 simplification. I understand that we had

21 voted on the one that Joe had done, the

22 chlorine, but at this point in time, since it
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1 was -- you know, Jean hadn't brought it up,

2 and Jay hadn't made the motion, so it would

3 apply to this one at this point in time. And

4 if we want to do it for each one, I was just

5 suggesting we could maybe simplify it. But if

6 we need to do it more formally, I'm happy to

7 be more formal.

8 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

9 MEMBER RICHARDSON: You know, this

10 isn't really that bad, what's up here. I

11 mean, I think if it said -- I would be in

12 favor of this motion, just do it as a motion

13 for all of the materials that go back to the

14 subcommittee on aquaculture. It's a perfectly

15 reasonable motion. Jay and I have tried to

16 sort of build in what we think is -- reflects

17 what we will actually be doing in the

18 subcommittee.

19 So I don't think it's a big deal.

20 I think I would just say that the motion --

21 that all of the materials referred back to the

22 Livestock Committee, and that way you just do
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1 it once and just vote on it.

2 I understand that Zea isn't

3 terribly keen on the idea that we wait for

4 final. I mean, the reality of what will

5 happen is it will go back to the subcommittee.

6 And as soon as the proposal comes out, knowing

7 our work plans, we will already be working on

8 it, so that hopefully by the time the final

9 rule in fact comes out that we will be able to

10 mesh the new recommendations in line with the

11 final as it is coming out. I mean, that's the

12 reality of what's on there.

13 So I think this is a very

14 reasonable motion that probably meets

15 everybody's needs.

16 CHAIR STONE: Zea?

17 MEMBER SONNABEND: I respectfully

18 disagree with that assessment. I think that

19 waiting until the final rule comes out on the

20 standards in order to propose the first

21 material onto the list, say it doesn't come

22 out for three years, and then you have the
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1 rulemaking process on the materials which

2 takes another two years. You're looking at

3 five years.

4 If it was not quite so

5 prescriptive, this mandates that it has to not

6 be done until the final regulations come out,

7 by just referring it back to the committee.

8 That is, you know, absurdly restrict for

9 something that just needs more exploration.

10 So if it just had .2, then I would

11 vote in favor of it. But with .1 in there, I

12 just think you are completely hamstringing the

13 Board and the future boards into this absurd

14 thing.

15 CHAIR STONE: Jean?

16 MEMBER RICHARDSON: So if we just

17 change the phrase where it says the NOP

18 publish proposed aquaculture, would that do it

19 for you? Because obviously we can't actually

20 look at the --

21 MEMBER SONNABEND: If it said that

22 and it was "or" between one and two, that
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1 would be okay. But if it says that, you know,

2 I'm not that comfortable with just that. But

3 if it said they published the proposed rule or

4 you get a TR that makes you comfortable to

5 vote for it --

6 MEMBER RICHARDSON: But the thing

7 is, we really can't study the materials until

8 such time as we've actually got some

9 regulations or proposed ones to look at. So

10 we won't even know the right questions perhaps

11 for the TR.

12 So, in other words, what --

13 MEMBER SONNABEND: Well, if you're

14 back to not even requesting a TR, because you

15 don't have questions until there's rules out,

16 then you're talking about like six or seven --

17 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Well, there

18 are plenty of questions we can ask now, but

19 they won't necessarily be all of them until we

20 have a proposed rule.

21 CHAIR STONE: Tracy?

22 MEMBER FAVRE: I would consider it
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1 as a friendly amendment if we put in there

2 "publishes the draft rules." I would be more

3 comfortable with that. I share Zea's concern

4 about the prescriptive nature of this, as I

5 said, but we do effectively need some sort of

6 standards at least from which to work as we're

7 doing the evaluation and incorporating the

8 comments that we received yesterday from the

9 Board.

10 So I would, at least for

11 tocopherols, which is mine that made the

12 motion, I would consider that as a friendly

13 amendment, if we revised it so that Point I

14 was the NOP publishes

15 draft aquaculture regulations. Sorry,

16 proposed.

17 CHAIR STONE: Does the maker of

18 the motion accept that friendly amendment?

19 MEMBER FELDMAN: I mean, I'd like

20 to hear other conversation on that. You know,

21 the problem is, that was a big part of the

22 public comment, that -- how do we determine
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1 acceptable materials and their use patterns

2 outside the context of a regulation.

3 As you all know, you guys have

4 been involved with the regulatory process, and

5 with as intelligent a group of stakeholders in

6 the audience, you know, we could -- I'm just

7 putting this on the table for question. You

8 know, we could see the final rule change, you

9 know, in some important ways from the draft

10 rule.

11 That's -- that would just mean we

12 -- I would suspect the Board would have to

13 come back and then do additional work if the

14 final rule were to be substantially different.

15 And so just think about that when you amend

16 this language. But I'm open to it. I just

17 wanted to have a little discussion on that, so

18 people are aware of that problem.

19 CHAIR STONE: And I would suggest

20 that -- trust future boards to determine when

21 the right time to listen to public comment off

22 the proposed rule. But to Zea's point, the
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1 materials can be coupled with the final rule

2 as they go -- to be ready to be coupled to go

3 through the rulemaking process.

4 So we are desperately tight on

5 time here. Nick, quickly.

6 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes. I support

7 the friendly amendment, and I understand the

8 -- and have been in, as most of us have been,

9 in this situation of materials and rules. But

10 we have managed to work through it over the

11 past 20-odd years. So I support the friendly

12 amendment.

13 CHAIR STONE: Jay?

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Okay. I support

15 it.

16 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jay.

17 Colehour?

18 MEMBER BONDERA: I'll accept the

19 change of "final" to "proposed."

20 CHAIR STONE: So Michelle will

21 change the word "final" to "proposed." And

22 we'll trust that future boards will act
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1 appropriately based on how that transpires.

2 So now we're going to couple this

3 with each of the materials. In effect, that

4 will -- chlorine will be -- was not coupled

5 with this, is caught in the same bundle, so I

6 think it was not necessary to go backwards in

7 the agenda.

8 So we have a motion on the floor

9 to accept this attachment to the referral

10 documents, and the voting starts with Francis.

11 MEMBER THICKE: Yes.

12 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

13 MEMBER TAYLOR: Yes.

14 MEMBER FELDMAN: Yes.

15 MEMBER SONNABEND: Abstain.

16 MEMBER AUSTIN: No.

17 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Yes.

18 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes.

19 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes.

20 MEMBER DICKSON: Yes.

21 MEMBER BECK: No.

22 MEMBER FAVRE: Yes.
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1 MEMBER MARAVELL: Yes.

2 MEMBER FULWIDER: Yes.

3 CHAIR STONE: The Chair votes yes.

4 So this will be coupled with each of the

5 materials, so as to expedite the voting on the

6 rest of the aquaculture materials -- be quite

7 clear.

8 Now there is a motion on the floor

9 to refer tocopherols back to committee. Any

10 questions? Any clarification?

11 (No response.)

12 All in favor say aye.

13 (Chorus of ayes.)

14 Any opposed?

15 (No response.)

16 Hearing no opposed, motion

17 carries.

18 MEMBER FAVRE: Okay. The next

19 material is petition for minerals in aquatic

20 animal production. Francis, that's you.

21 MEMBER THICKE: I move that we

22 refer the proposal for minerals for aquatic
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1 animals back to the committee, as per the

2 language on the screen, except the word

3 "final" being replaced with "proposed."

4 MEMBER FAVRE: Second.

5 CHAIR STONE: That's a given.

6 Motion and a second. Any further discussion?

7 (No response.)

8 All in favor say aye.

9 (Chorus of ayes.)

10 Any opposed?

11 (No response.)

12 Hearing no opposed, motion

13 carries.

14 Next?

15 MEMBER FAVRE: Next material was a

16 petition for vitamins in aquatic animal

17 production. Calvin?

18 SECRETARY WALKER: Yes. I move

19 that we refer vitamins for aquaculture animals

20 back to the committee, with the proposed

21 motion change.

22 MEMBER FAVRE: Second.
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1 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion and

2 a second. Any further discussion?

3 (No response.)

4 All in favor say aye.

5 (Chorus of ayes.)

6 Any opposed?

7 (No response.)

8 Hearing no opposed, motion

9 carries.

10 Thank you.

11 MEMBER FAVRE: Next material is

12 biologics/vaccines in aquatic animal

13 production. Jean?

14 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I make a

15 motion that we refer the vaccine/biologics for

16 aquatic animals back to the subcommittee.

17 MEMBER FAVRE: Second.

18 CHAIR STONE: Motion by Jean.

19 Second by Tracy. Any further discussion?

20 (No response.)

21 All in favor say aye.

22 (Chorus of ayes.)
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1 Any opposed?

2 (No response.)

3 Hearing no opposed, motion

4 carries.

5 Next?

6 MEMBER FAVRE: Next, material for

7 petition was micronutrients for use in aquatic

8 plant production. Francis?

9 MEMBER THICKE: I move that we

10 refer the proposal for micronutrients for

11 aquatic plants back to the Livestock

12 Subcommittee with the attached language.

13 MEMBER FAVRE: Second.

14 CHAIR STONE: Motion, Francis;

15 second, Tracy. Any further discussion?

16 (No response.)

17 All in favor say aye.

18 (Chorus of ayes.)

19 Any opposed?

20 (No response.)

21 Hearing no opposed, motion

22 carries.
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1 Thank you.

2 MEMBER FAVRE: Next material is

3 carbon dioxide for use in aquatic plant

4 production. I'd like to make a motion that

5 this be referred back to subcommittee with the

6 attached language.

7 MEMBER THICKE: Second.

8 CHAIR STONE: Motion, Tracy;

9 second, Francis. Any further discussion?

10 (No response.)

11 All in favor say aye.

12 (Chorus of ayes.)

13 Any opposed?

14 (No response.)

15 Hearing no opposed, motion

16 carries.

17 MEMBER FAVRE: Next material is

18 chlorine materials for use in aquatic plant

19 production. Joe?

20 MEMBER DICKSON: I move that the

21 proposal on aquatic -- or on chlorine in

22 aquatic plant production be referred back to
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1 the subcommittee with the language on the

2 screen.

3 MEMBER FAVRE: Second.

4 CHAIR STONE: Motion, Joe; second,

5 Tracy. Any further discussion?

6 (No response.)

7 All in favor say aye.

8 (Chorus of ayes.)

9 Any opposed?

10 (No response.)

11 Hearing no opposed, motion

12 carries.

13 MEMBER FAVRE: Next material is

14 lignin sulfonate in aquatic plant production.

15 Jean?

16 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I make the

17 motion that we refer lignin sulfonate for

18 aquatic plants back to the subcommittee.

19 MEMBER FAVRE: Second.

20 CHAIR STONE: Motion, Jean;

21 second, Tracy. Any further discussion?

22 (No response.)
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1 All in favor say aye.

2 (Chorus of ayes.)

3 Any opposed?

4 (No response.)

5 Hearing no opposed, motion

6 carries.

7 MEMBER FAVRE: And our final

8 material -- a round of applause, please -- for

9 vitamins in aquatic plant production. Calvin?

10 SECRETARY WALKER: I make a motion

11 that vitamins for plants to be returned back

12 to the committee with the language change

13 proposed.

14 MEMBER FAVRE: Second.

15 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion for

16 aquatic plants. Second, Tracy. Any further

17 discussion?

18 (No response.)

19 All in favor say aye.

20 (Chorus of ayes.)

21 Any opposed?

22 (No response.)
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1 Hearing no opposed, motion

2 carries.

3 Thank you very much.

4 MEMBER FAVRE: Mr. Chair, thank

5 you. That concludes the votes for Livestock.

6 CHAIR STONE: And I thank the

7 Livestock Committee, and Tracy specifically,

8 and others that worked very diligently in

9 developing those proposals and getting us to

10 this point in the process on those materials.

11 Thank you, all.

12 Okay. In the essence of time, we

13 are not going to take a break.

14 MEMBER BONDERA: Can we have a

15 five- minute break?

16 CHAIR STONE: Five? Okay. Five

17 minutes. Be back in five minutes.

18 Thank you.

19 (Whereupon, the proceedings in the foregoing

20 matter went off the record at 11:06 a.m. and

21 went back on the record at 11:12 a.m.)

22 CHAIR STONE: Okay. I'm going to
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1 turn the -- turn to Harold as the Chair of the

2 Handling Subcommittee to put the first

3 material on the table.

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: Thank you, Mac.

5 Our first material for addition to 205605,

6 ammonium hydroxide as a boiler water additive.

7 Jean was the lead. Jean, would you make the

8 proposal?

9 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Yes. I make

10 the motion that we refer the ammonium

11 hydroxide boiler water additive as petitioned

12 back to the Handling Subcommittee.

13 MEMBER AUSTIN: I'll second that.

14 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion by

15 Jean, a second by Harold, to refer this

16 material back to committee -- subcommittee.

17 Any further discussion?

18 (No response.)

19 All in favor say aye.

20 (Chorus of ayes.)

21 Any opposed?

22 (No response.)
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1 Hearing no opposed, motion

2 carries.

3 Harold?

4 MEMBER AUSTIN: All right. Our

5 second material is a material to be removed

6 from 205605B, glycerin, Case Number 56-81-5.

7 Tracy was the lead on that.

8 MEMBER FAVRE: I make the motion

9 that this material is referred back to

10 subcommittee.

11 MEMBER AUSTIN: I'll second.

12 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion,

13 Tracy; second, Harold, refer this back to

14 committee. Any further discussion?

15 (No response.)

16 All in favor say aye.

17 (Chorus of ayes.)

18 Any opposed?

19 (No response.)

20 Hearing none, motion carries.

21 Thank you.

22 MEMBER AUSTIN: We've got one
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1 final -- third material, polyalkaline glycol

2 monobutyl ether. That was a discussion

3 document, and that will default back to the

4 subcommittee for further deliberation. And we

5 will bring that back to the full Board in the

6 fall. And that wraps up our presentation.

7 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thank you,

8 Harold.

9 And just for the record, we are

10 one minute ahead of schedule.

11 Thank you all very much. That was

12 -- it's always difficult to work through this,

13 and thank you all. Difficult in many ways, I

14 should say.

15 So next on the agenda is officer

16 elections. So just in general the process is

17 we will take nominations from the Board for --

18 to be Chair. Once that vote is complete, then

19 there will be nominations for Vice -- Vice

20 Chair. And then once voting is complete,

21 there will be nominations for Secretary, and

22 they will each be voted on separately.
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1 So which color, Calvin, is going

2 to be Chair?

3 SECRETARY WALKER: Pink for Chair.

4 CHAIR STONE: Pink for Chair. How

5 about that. Okay. Very good.

6 So I will entertain a motion,

7 nominations for -- to be Chair. Joe?

8 MEMBER DICKSON: I'd like to

9 nominate Dr. Jean Richardson as Chair.

10 SECRETARY WALKER: Second.

11 CHAIR STONE: I have a motion -- I

12 mean, a nomination -- I don't guess it's

13 motions. Yes, it is. It's a motion. And a

14 second for Jean to -- Jean Richardson to be

15 the Chair of the National Organic Standards

16 Board.

17 Are there other nominations from

18 the Board?

19 (No response.)

20 Seeing no other nominations,

21 hearing no other nominations from the Board,

22 I guess we declare Jean by acclamation to be
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1 the next Chair of the National Organic

2 Standards Board.

3 (Applause.)

4 Is that really a smile, or just

5 kind of a fake smile?

6 (Laughter.)

7 I'm going with the fake smile

8 myself. And I might understand that myself,

9 actually, after this morning.

10 So next I'll accept nominations

11 from Board members for Vice Chair. And Jean

12 does need some help. Somebody?

13 SECRETARY WALKER: I nominate

14 Wendy Fulwider.

15 CHAIR STONE: I have a nomination

16 for Wendy. I guess I should ask, do you

17 accept the nomination?

18 MEMBER FULWIDER: I'm going to

19 decline.

20 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Okay. So we

21 have a do-over. Jean?

22 MEMBER RICHARDSON: I would like
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1 to nominate John Foster.

2 SECRETARY WALKER: Second.

3 CHAIR STONE: I have a nomination

4 and a second for John to continue as Vice

5 Chair. Is there any other nominations from

6 the Board?

7 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I'll nominate

8 Colehour.

9 CHAIR STONE: I have a nomination

10 of Colehour. Do you accept that nomination?

11 MEMBER BONDERA: Yes.

12 CHAIR STONE: Jennifer, you had

13 your hand up a second ago?

14 MEMBER TAYLOR: I was going to

15 have the same --

16 CHAIR STONE: Okay. I have a

17 nomination for Colehour for Vice Chair. Any

18 other nominations from the Board? I'm sorry.

19 John, do you accept the nomination?

20 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: I do.

21 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Thanks.

22 Okay. So, at this time, if each
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1 one would mark the green sheet, Calvin, is

2 that right, for Vice Chair?

3 SECRETARY WALKER: Yellow.

4 CHAIR STONE: Yellow? Use your

5 yellow notecards. And Calvin, as Secretary,

6 will read the votes, and I will ask Jean, as

7 incoming, to have the second set of eyes to

8 look at the votes, please.

9 (Pause.)

10 So, Secretary C. Reuben has -- and

11 verified by Dr. Richardson, John, nine votes;

12 Colehour, six. John, stay on as Vice Chair.

13 Thank you very much.

14 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: You're

15 welcome.

16 (Applause.)

17 CHAIR STONE: So now for Secretary

18 I'll accept nominations from Board members.

19 SECRETARY WALKER: I would like to

20 nominate Mac Stone Secretary.

21 MEMBER MARAVELL: I second the

22 nomination.
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1 CHAIR STONE: Yesterday I was

2 thinking one thing. After this morning, I'm

3 thinking something -- no, I would accept.

4 MEMBER MARAVELL: Well, we're not

5 nominating you for Chair.

6 CHAIR STONE: I understand that.

7 No, I will accept that. Other nominations

8 from the Board, please? Please?

9 (Laughter.)

10 MEMBER FAVRE: Do we need to call

11 A and B, first?

12 CHAIR STONE: No. But I'm hoping

13 I miss my flight. No other nominations?

14 (No response.)

15 Okay. A little awkward accepting

16 that myself as the Chair, but -- yes, John, if

17 you would do that.

18 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Hearing no

19 other nominations, we will -- hearing no other

20 nominations, we'll by acclamation declare Mac

21 Stone as the Secretary for the next season.

22 (Applause.)
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1 CHAIR STONE: Thank you very much.

2 I guess we didn't clarify before

3 the vote, we are out of synch because of the

4 cancelled fall meeting last fall. So this

5 sitting officership will be for six months.

6 And at the fall meeting we will vote again for

7 each of these officers to get back online to

8 be consistent with our PPM that they are voted

9 on at the fall meeting. So this is an

10 abbreviated officership, however you phrase

11 that. Okay?

12 Thank you very much.

13 So I think the way we have kind of

14 scripted this is I'm going to hand the floor,

15 the Chair, to the new Chair, Jean. The work

16 plans will be discussed, and she will be

17 chairing this term. And then, when she is

18 done, there will be a few closing remarks by

19 myself and/or Miles to close out the meeting.

20 So, Jean, and I guess we've got

21 work plans coming up.

22 MEMBER RICHARDSON: The next item
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1 on the agenda, then, are the work plans. And

2 we see them on the overhead next to us. I'm

3 not sure exactly how we do this. Do we go

4 through each subcommittee and have the Chair

5 of each subcommittee comment on them?

6 CHAIR STONE: Yes, ma'am.

7 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Okay. Start

8 with CACS. Carmela, please?

9 MEMBER BECK: All right. Well, so

10 it looks like we've got two agenda items. The

11 205206E, that's the one that we're going to

12 take back to subcommittee to see how to

13 proceed on it for the fall meeting, if indeed

14 we choose to move forward with that, and then

15 the second item is, as it says, the assessment

16 of soil conservation practices, that we plan

17 to have a discussion document for the fall

18 meeting. So those are our two for the fall.

19 Thank you.

20 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you.

21 For the Crops Subcommittee, Zea,

22 please.
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1 MEMBER SONNABEND: Okay. So now

2 is when I'll ask inspiration to move me

3 brightly towards our next semester of work for

4 the NOSB when we will be considering our first

5 sunset materials. Those sunsets are sulfurous

6 acid, sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate, and two

7 listings for aqueous potassium silicate.

8 We have 2016 sunset materials that

9 we will be doing our first summary for. Those

10 include ferric phosphate -- hard to believe

11 that's up again already -- and hydrogen

12 chloride for cotton seed delinting.

13 And then -- okay. I don't --

14 what? No, I don't want to see 2017. But just

15 so the public knows, we are well underway on

16 taking a look at 2017 materials to try and

17 commission TRs for the ones that seem to need

18 it. And we will, over the summer, be deciding

19 on those TRs and identifying questions to send

20 along for the TR reviews.

21 Then, we have petition materials.

22 Those include carbon monoxide, which we have
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1 renamed as exhaust gas, because it is not pure

2 carbon monoxide, and a TR is out for that

3 right now. So we hope to have a proposal for

4 fall.

5 Allyl isothiocyanate will also be

6 -- that's in the TR stage. It's a petitioned

7 item and will be hopefully a proposal for

8 fall.

9 We do hope to have progress on

10 inerts, and we will report on that as we can.

11 The thing right below that,

12 propylene carbonate, is a petition for an

13 inert, which is pretty much on hold in the

14 meantime.

15 And, last but not least, the issue

16 that we put on the work plan -- well, right

17 before the last fall meeting, which is to

18 examine contamination issues in farm inputs,

19 that will be on -- we hope as a discussion

20 document in the fall of 2014.

21 And that will be the Crops

22 Committee -- Subcommittee's work plan.
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1 Thank you.

2 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you,

3 Zea.

4 Harold for Handling, please.

5 MEMBER AUSTIN: All right. For

6 the Handling for this next term, you know,

7 we've got a pretty light workload, so I think

8 we'll be able to take it easy, sit back along

9 the beach somewhere.

10 No, we've actually got quite an

11 extensive workload. Petition materials, we've

12 got gibberellic acid, which now would -- since

13 we have the first harvest handling guidance,

14 we'll be able to move that along and make a

15 determination on that. Whole algal flour, a

16 petition that it be added to 205606.

17 Ammonium hydroxide, which just was

18 deferred back to the committee, glycine, and

19 then PGME was the discussion document. All of

20 those are coming back to the subcommittee for

21 further work. Triethyl citrate, that one

22 should be moving forward for the fall meeting
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1 as well.

2 That will move us on into our 2015

3 sunset materials, which we heard the first

4 public commentary on. First posting took

5 place at this meeting. The final review,

6 final posting on those, and discussion will be

7 coming up for discussion in the fall meeting.

8 And we'll move into our 2016

9 materials. Egg white lysozyme microorganisms,

10 activated charcoal, peracetic acid, we'll run

11 into our three boiler materials, which I'm not

12 going to try to pronounce all of three of

13 those right now. L-Malic acid, sodium acid,

14 pyrophosphate, and then tetrosodium

15 pyrophosphate, TSPP.

16 And then, just for good measure,

17 we will have -- we will move into our 2017

18 sunset materials. We have just simply got 103

19 of those. We won't go into them individually,

20 but I think I would, just for the sake of

21 getting it into the record, so everybody is

22 aware, we are going to look at those as
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1 classification groups.

2 And those groups will be looking

3 -- that will be looking at will -- as we do

4 the review for TR need, will be filtering

5 agents, food coatings, food acids, minerals,

6 sanitizers, gums and thickening agents,

7 vitamins and minerals, leavening agents,

8 drying, preservatives, gases, colors, casings,

9 miscellaneous ingredients, dairy products, and

10 flavors.

11 So, I mean, that's just breaking

12 them up into the subclasses. I mean, and each

13 one of those, like I said, we've got 103 of

14 those.

15 Then, other projects, we will be

16 continuing to work and come back with an

17 update on progression on ancillary substances,

18 and then we have one other material -- is it

19 on here? It's not on there. We've got one

20 that we are working on, and I don't know --

21 we'll have it back on our work plan -- BPA.

22 So at this moment it's just -- we've got it
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1 tabled, and we may or may not bring it back

2 forward.

3 Madam Chair, that's all I have.

4 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you,

5 Harold.

6 John, you have a comment?

7 VICE CHAIR FOSTER: Just one thing

8 to say. As former Chair of the Handling

9 Committee, good luck to you. And I can tell

10 you with no uncertainty you are entering a

11 world of pain.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MEMBER AUSTIN: Golly, gee,

14 thanks.

15 MEMBER RICHARDSON: The next

16 subcommittee is Livestock. Tracy, please?

17 MEMBER FAVRE: Thank you, Jean.

18 We will be doing petition materials as they

19 come up, including aluminum sulfate.

20 Obviously, our work plan is going to look

21 substantially different than planned, since we

22 have so many proposals referred back to
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1 committee.

2 But other projects, we've got

3 vaccines from excluded methods, the update on

4 that. We have 43 2017 sunset materials. And

5 then, in addition to the aquaculture

6 proposals, we also have the methionine, the

7 acidified sodium chlorite.

8 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Mac, you have

9 a question?

10 CHAIR STONE: Yes. Just a

11 comment, really. Just with the sunset bubble

12 on the way, just figure out how the committee

13 and the timing of -- I'm worried about

14 aquaculture materials getting stale. Maybe we

15 -- we heard a lot of great comment from other

16 Board members about specific issues, and just

17 trying to think about how best to address some

18 of that while it's fresh in our mind versus

19 waiting for a proposed rule. And so it's just

20 a comment for the committee members to think

21 -- start thinking about processing the timing

22 of how to deal with all of that.
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1 So you've got a lot on your plate,

2 and I just want to offer some help in that

3 way, so --

4 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you. It

5 will be appreciated.

6 Thank you, Tracy.

7 The next subcommittee, Materials,

8 GMO, ad hoc. Calvin, please?

9 SECRETARY WALKER: Thank you,

10 Madam Chair, Chairman, Chairperson. The work

11 plan items for the Materials GMO Ad Hoc

12 Committee, as you can see on the screen, is

13 research priorities will be coming up in the

14 fall, petitions and TR tracking, which will be

15 an ongoing thing that will probably not be

16 brought back up in the fall.

17 Technical difficulty.

18 Seed purity, the next step, report

19 that we heard at this meeting here is that

20 over 80 percent of the stakeholders wanted --

21 provided input. And we still have some work

22 to do on seed purity based upon our
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1 stakeholders' requests.

2 And other projects, prevention

3 strategies, for excluded methods and crops and

4 handling, also planned for the fall.

5 That's it.

6 MEMBER RICHARDSON: Thank you,

7 Calvin.

8 Those are all the work plans,

9 right? So I turn it back to you, Mac.

10 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jean.

11 Just one other thought. We heard some public

12 testimony, concern about work plan

13 development. There has been a lot of

14 conversation as we've discussed this at the

15 subcommittee level and Executive Committee

16 level, Jay, that there is a process.

17 The committee members can bring

18 forth a White Paper, for lack of a better

19 term, to make the case for a work plan item.

20 It gets vetted by the subcommittee. It

21 bubbles up to the Executive Committee and can

22 be strengthened along the way, if you will.
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1 It gets submitted to the program.

2 They evaluate it about, is it

3 something that's in our wheelhouse? Is it

4 something that they can control? Is it -- so

5 they evaluate it for how it fits in with the

6 rest of the authority that the program and the

7 Board has and discusses it with the Executive

8 Committee and/or the subcommittee.

9 So there still is a process. It

10 is more formal. And from my perspective, it's

11 still a very viable and open process for the

12 Board members to listen to the broader

13 community and work with the process that we

14 have to get work plan items brought forth to

15 the full Board.

16 Any other thoughts/comments there,

17 while we have a minute?

18 (No response.)

19 Okay. So that concludes our

20 official business. I had a couple of

21 thoughts, just -- is there any Other Business

22 to come before the Board? Colehour?
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1 MEMBER BONDERA: Thank you, Mac.

2 Yes, I think that this is Other Business, and

3 I'm glad that we are not super far behind

4 schedule, according to my review, so it will

5 take a few moments, but it won't take that

6 long.

7 I just wanted to tell everybody as

8 a proud small-scale farmer, which I am, and I

9 think in jest, but truthfully I'm a confirmed

10 NOSB minority in many ways, but for the sake

11 of, you know, just -- I want to just say this

12 for the sake of transparency. I want to let

13 other NOSB members know that I'm going to be

14 submitting this to Miles McEvoy, so I just

15 want to read it. It's pretty brief.

16 "Dear National Organic Program:

17 As a member of the National Organic Standards

18 Board, in order to maintain the integrity of

19 the organic label, I hereby urge you to

20 enforce the sunset provision of the Organic

21 Foods Production Act as intended by requiring

22 public debate and discussion and a vote of the
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1 National Organic Standards Board on whether to

2 relist allowed synthetic materials in organic

3 production and processing on a five-year

4 cycle.

5 "Organic has always been held to

6 high standards of public review, and the

7 relisting process, like the initial petition

8 process, ensures important scientific and

9 essentiality scrutiny to maintain public trust

10 in the organic label. Sincerely, Colehour

11 Bondera."

12 And I do invite and welcome other

13 minority and majority NOSB members to add

14 their names to this Other Business, and I

15 honestly also think that this should be at

16 least commented on or discussed at the

17 Executive Subcommittee level. So that's what

18 I wanted to put forth, and I appreciate your

19 time to hear me.

20 Thank you.

21 CHAIR STONE: Okay. Jay?

22 MEMBER FELDMAN: Mr. Chairman,
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1 thank you for all of your hard work and

2 diligence as Chair, and especially in running

3 the meetings. I know that's a very stressful

4 job.

5 I just wanted to let the Board

6 members know that I will be signing on to

7 Colehour's letter, and hope that we can

8 continue this discussion in an open manner, so

9 that the community feels that we are

10 responsive to these issues.

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIR STONE: Thank you, Jay.

13 Any other last thoughts of Board

14 members?

15 MR. McEVOY: If I may say

16 something. Yes. Thank you for those

17 comments, and look forward to further

18 discussions at the Executive Committee.

19 CHAIR STONE: So I just had a

20 couple of thoughts that I'd like to leave out

21 there. As Chair, I think I stated it earlier

22 today, that all Board chairs are rookies, and
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1 it's really easy for rookies to not be sure

2 how to navigate various aspects. But it has

3 been very, very rewarding to me to have the

4 pleasure and to work with such dedicated,

5 hardworking folks.

6 And for my term on the Board, not

7 just as Chair, no matter how much we give,

8 Jay, no matter how much energy we put into

9 this stuff, I personally have gained more than

10 I ever feel like I could give, because of what

11 we go through to make the deliberations.

12 So to the audience, I'd like to --

13 apparently, I didn't say it as well as I

14 thought I did yesterday. The sunset procedure

15 has changed. The Board cannot do anything

16 about that. That's not what we do. That's

17 not true; there is something we can do about

18 that.

19 We have the responsibility to make

20 it the best it can be on behalf of the

21 stakeholders that have materials or standards

22 changes to go through. So whatever happens in
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1 the broader context outside of this room,

2 outside of the Board action, we can't do

3 anything about that. I hear rumors about

4 things that may happen because of people not

5 liking the action of the USDA, but I think you

6 saw here that this Board still has a

7 responsibility to work with the rules that we

8 have and to do the best that we can.

9 And we need your all's support,

10 your all's help, whatever that -- whatever

11 perspective you bring to the table, we need

12 your help to get the work done, and the other

13 thing is just out there. But while that's --

14 whatever happens out there doesn't affect --

15 we need your help to get our work done at this

16 table.

17 The last thing I'd like to say is,

18 so when we come into this room and very

19 passionate, very caring, very understanding

20 people throw barbs at the process, at this --

21 all of this inside this room, and that's

22 great. That's what democracy is all about.
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1 But I will suggest that those barbs hit

2 people, these 15, 16, 17, 18 people. And it

3 can be hurtful because we are trying to do the

4 best we can.

5 So, again, we need your help. But

6 what I'm concerned about is is when people

7 leave this room, when you get the cab back to

8 the airport, and the cab driver says, "Oh,

9 what have you been doing in San Antonio?" that

10 when you get out of that cab, the cab driver

11 has a better appreciation and respect for

12 organic food for what it is rather than a

13 perception that the system is flawed or the

14 people don't care or whatever it might be.

15 And I just want to make sure that

16 all of us, when we leave this room, differing

17 opinions about what votes we made, that we

18 promote that seal right there to anybody and

19 everybody we can. When we come into this

20 room, we fight tooth and nail for our

21 conviction. But when we leave, it's all about

22 promotion of that seal.
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1 Thank you very much.

2 (Applause.)

3 MEMBER SONNABEND: I think we

4 should give Mac a big round of applause for

5 being our Chair and going out with a bang.

6 CHAIR STONE: Thank you.

7 (Applause.)

8 Miles? So, Miles, I'll turn it

9 over to you to close it out.

10 MR. McEVOY: All righty. So an

11 interesting meeting, as all meetings are.

12 Lots of fun this week. Thank you all for the

13 public comments. The Board received a lot of

14 great information and perspectives about their

15 proposals. We really appreciate all the time

16 and effort that everyone put into providing

17 comments.

18 The Agricultural Marketing Service

19 also heard many concerns about the revised

20 sunset process. As you heard from me, that we

21 are convinced that the revised sunset process

22 increases transparency and public input into
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1 the process. The revised process more closely

2 aligns with the Organic Foods Production Act

3 by ensuring that the NOSB fulfills its

4 responsibility to fully review all substances

5 on the national list every five years.

6 In addition, it assures that all

7 recommended changes to the USDA organic

8 regulations are supported by at least

9 two-thirds of the Board members.

10 Thanks to the Board for their work

11 on implementing the revised process. USDA

12 thanks the Board members for their service.

13 Your expertise and advice will help USDA

14 improve the National Organic Program. We

15 invite everyone to come see us next October in

16 Louisville, Kentucky.

17 And with that, the spring 2014

18 NOSB meeting is closed.

19 Thank you.

20 (Whereupon, at 11:43 a.m., the proceedings in

21 the foregoing matter were concluded.)

22
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A

a.m 1:10 4:2 71:13

71:14 100:17,18

140:20,21 168:20

abbreviated 79:5

103:10 149:10

ability 26:6,9 80:4

89:1 99:3

able 11:11 16:6

20:20 26:9 40:11

75:17 84:3 89:21

102:6 126:9 153:8

153:14

absolutely 51:10

Abstain 132:15

abstaining 113:16

absurd 127:13

absurdly 127:8

accept 8:10 30:3

37:19 39:16 40:18

63:2 95:8,10

129:18 131:18

132:9 145:10,17

146:10,19 147:18

148:3,7

acceptable 35:11

115:3 130:1

accepted 104:8

accepting 148:15

access 35:6 43:2

101:3,22

acclamation 144:22

148:20

accommodate

104:3

accomplish 77:20

100:9

accurate 19:4

achieve 75:14

104:5

acid 60:19,20,22

151:6 153:12

154:10,13,13

acidified 115:4,10

157:7

acids 155:5

acreages 25:3

act 26:3,4 36:7

131:22 161:21

168:2

action 70:15 118:14

165:2,5

activated 154:10

ad 94:5 158:8,11

add 37:8 50:17

82:9,17 99:20,21

103:3,4 119:22

162:13

added 60:14,20

82:18 119:18

121:13 153:16

adding 55:18 105:8

addition 29:5 55:20

141:5 157:5 168:6

additional 28:13

69:1 111:3 130:13

additive 141:6,11

additives 48:13

50:21

address 81:20

87:10 120:14

157:17

addressed 80:7

adds 83:16

adequate 14:4

77:15

adequately 81:20

adjusted 4:14 98:4

adjusters 48:13

50:22

administrative

98:15,18

Administrator 2:11

adopt 36:9

advance 65:22

adverse 17:5 76:8

advice 168:13

advisable 75:4

advise 69:12

advised 9:13

Advisory 2:13

advocated 57:1

advocates 29:5

affect 103:14

104:20 165:14

afford 26:11

ag 18:19

agencies 58:22

agenda 72:21 132:7

143:15 150:1,10

agent 32:21

agents 155:5,6,7

aggravated 81:6

ago 104:11 146:13

agree 42:3 82:15

99:10 105:18

121:11 124:18,19

Agricultural 1:1

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agriculture 1:1

25:7 81:1

ahead 18:17 19:2

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airport 166:8

Alamo 41:11

algal 153:15

aligns 168:2

alive 70:18

alkali 60:19,20,22

all's 165:9,10

allow 55:7 70:15,16

73:17 88:12 90:13

90:13 103:7,15

111:16 121:8

allowances 64:22

allowed 38:15 39:9

54:8 59:3,22

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allowing 55:2,5

allows 65:17 105:1

Allyl 152:5

alter 105:12

alternation 93:4

alternative 29:3,7

67:17 83:5 106:14

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alternatives 11:2

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amend 37:8 38:10

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amended 94:22

amendment 37:14

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69:7 74:20 83:11

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118:3 121:13,16

129:1,13,18 131:7

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America 22:1

ammonium 48:14

50:22 141:6,10

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amount 65:8

AMS 1:1 101:1

ancillary 155:17

and/or 29:2 149:19

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animal 74:1 85:13

88:10 90:11 116:8

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annual 29:2

answer 68:11 70:22

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Anthony 1:11

antibiotic 16:10

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antibiotics 12:9,12

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65:3 86:5

anticipated 83:19

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antimicrobial

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anybody 13:5 17:7

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anyway 51:11,18

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apologize 66:20

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appalled 86:3

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appeal 22:3 66:18

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apples 8:5

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arbitrary 25:14

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area 15:10 16:1

Argentina 16:13

argue 80:8

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ARSENAULT

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asking 26:17 36:18

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attention 64:8 72:2

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27:14 28:12,16

30:2,18 31:7

32:11 39:20 46:4

47:13 48:18 50:8

51:5 53:1 62:1

85:2 113:22 123:2

123:4 132:16

141:4,13 142:4,11

142:22 153:5

156:13

authority 160:6

authorization

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autonomy 71:19

available 16:19

average 63:7 78:1

83:4 87:16 108:6

avoid 36:7

awaited 15:6

aware 130:18

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awful 80:17

awkward 123:1

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aye 115:17 116:17

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ayes 115:18 116:18

133:13 134:9

135:5,22 136:18

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139:2,20 141:20

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B

B 148:11

back 4:9 5:3,20

11:21 14:7 18:9

20:9 36:13 40:20

46:18 49:10 56:13

56:15 57:15,22

62:8 64:19 65:4

65:14 67:14,19

68:1,15,22 69:7,8

70:16 71:10,14

72:17 75:13 76:10

76:21 78:5 83:8

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97:14 98:22 99:5

99:5 100:18

103:15 106:13,22

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110:12 111:10

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114:13,19 115:11

116:8,11 117:9,12

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120:8 121:19

124:13,16,17

125:13,21 126:5

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136:11 137:5,22

138:18 139:11

140:17,21 141:12

141:16 142:9,13

143:3,5 149:7

150:12 153:8,18

153:20 155:16,21

156:1,22 158:16

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backing 26:7

backs 26:16 85:19

backwards 132:6

bacteria 21:7

bad 125:10

BAILEY 2:15

balance 17:4

bang 167:5

barbs 165:20 166:1

based 33:10 74:21

90:11 105:10

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basically 88:7

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basis 92:15

beach 153:9

BECK 1:16 27:22

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believe 19:4,18

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best 65:22 67:21

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better 17:20 19:20

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big 125:19 129:21

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blight 8:4 11:16

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block 15:19

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bubble 157:11

bubbles 159:21

build 35:2 125:16

bulb 25:21

bulk 23:22

bunch 35:17

bundle 132:5

burden 51:13

business 3:16

160:20,21 161:2

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button 18:21

buy 17:15

C

C 147:10

cab 166:7,8,10,10

CACS 150:8

calcium 63:5

California 14:14,16

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call 5:9 22:2 45:7

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called 45:14 66:16

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calling 66:18 70:2

calls 71:16,18

Calvin 1:15 31:12

31:20 134:17

139:9 144:1 147:1

147:5 158:8 159:7

cancelled 149:4

capture 119:21

carbon 137:3

151:22 152:2

carbonate 151:6

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care 77:14 91:6

94:13 166:14

careful 109:18

carefully 14:17

caring 165:19

Carmela 1:16

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carried 43:7

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CAS 63:5

case 33:19 42:10

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cases 42:9

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catch 6:4 17:21

categories 54:19

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cause 11:17

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celebrate 7:5

celebration 7:3

Center 20:13

central 15:10 55:3

cents 86:19

certainly 9:19,22

35:1 87:6

certification 58:22

certifiers 29:1

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cetera 35:20 56:3,3

Chair 4:3 6:9,17,22

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33:1,4 37:8,13

38:3,17,22 39:18

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47:14,17,19,22

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100:13,19 102:15

104:6,14 105:16

106:17 109:2,19

110:11,16 111:6

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113:18 114:1,8,11

115:14 116:10,14

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146:17,20,21

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149:15 150:4,6

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chairing 149:17

Chairman 158:10

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Chairperson 1:11

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chairs 163:22

challenge 17:6

challenged 10:22

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chance 45:3

chances 76:3

change 20:8 37:5

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95:21 96:2,8

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108:21 127:17

130:8 131:19,21

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changed 88:7

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characteristics

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characterized 39:3

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chart 9:9

check 62:16
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chemical 54:12

chickens 63:10

chloride 151:12

chlorine 48:15 51:1

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chlorite 115:5,11

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choice 16:11

choose 54:15 73:1

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Chorus 115:18

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circuit 106:9

circumstance 88:11

circumstances

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clarification 39:19

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closed 168:18

closely 168:1

closer 4:20

closing 3:16 149:18

closure 94:4

coatings 155:5

codify 120:5

Colehour 1:17 6:9

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Colehour's 92:22

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color 144:1

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come 11:21 20:19

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64:19 71:10 73:16

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122:22 126:21

127:6 130:13

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comes 33:15 52:4

56:15 74:1 95:19

107:1 126:6,9,19

comfort 89:5

comfortability

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128:2,4 129:3

coming 12:21 40:12

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10:15 21:22 87:10

87:12 89:10 99:9

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commentary 39:22

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commenting 35:18

comments 4:14

10:13 87:14

108:19 119:10

129:8 163:17

167:13,17

commission 151:17

commitment 30:1

committed 28:20

committee 4:10

5:15,20 7:8 62:9

62:19 68:16,20

69:8 72:17 75:14

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83:14 84:12 85:11

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91:2 99:1,5 107:1

109:20 110:5,10

110:12 113:3,9

114:13,19 115:12

116:11 118:12

120:21 121:20

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140:7 141:16

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153:18 156:9

157:1,12,20

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159:21 160:8

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communities 22:22

community 4:16,18

44:18 49:14 65:4

65:5 76:4 80:5

94:19 160:13

163:9

complete 92:10

96:7 97:7 143:18

143:20

completed 12:1,2

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41:18 42:3 82:16

88:9 121:4 127:12

compliance 20:1

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124:3

component 55:8,9

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51:1

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106:4

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51:22 63:20 77:18

81:4 98:14 129:3

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95:3

conditions 14:18

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confused 113:16

connected 66:22

connecting 22:5

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conservation

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considerably 54:17

consideration

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considered 54:13

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considering 42:12

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consolation 34:6

console 34:5

consternation

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constitute 39:21

consultant 24:18

consumer 16:14

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consumers 16:10

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conversation 9:2

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36:2,4 63:16,18

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conviction 166:21

convinced 87:9

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copper 12:17

corner 86:13,18

correct 6:11 7:13

8:9,22 31:17

40:14 78:7

cotton 151:12

couple 26:19,20

41:6 64:1 65:13

85:9 102:5 122:4

122:16,17 123:6

124:4 132:2

160:20 163:20

coupled 113:2

120:13,17 131:1,2

132:4 133:4

course 12:22 22:7

79:7 96:15

craft 111:7

crafted 119:4

crafting 93:15

create 34:22 35:3

91:2

created 88:11

creating 82:21

critical 17:3 67:2

crop 11:15 19:18

24:17

crops 5:15 7:8

13:13,13,15 62:13

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curious 98:12

current 48:4 65:16

73:4 84:22 101:16

102:9

currently 87:20

curve 18:17 19:2

custom 16:4

custom-grafted

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cycle 11:8 162:4

D

dairy 155:9

damage 11:15

12:16

data 33:10

date 7:22 8:2,20

14:2 18:7,8 25:14

26:18 28:22 36:9

37:9 38:15 39:2,8

41:19 63:22 64:18

67:2 74:12 75:11

75:19 76:1 78:3

89:20 90:16 91:3

91:6,18 92:2

94:11 98:1,3,5,7,8

98:19 105:9

106:21 107:8,15

108:8,13 109:22

110:2 113:1

dates 39:7,10 86:22

David 15:7

day 7:4 9:3,6,7,20

23:1 43:15 44:19

45:3 59:1,18

87:13 88:10 121:6

day-to-day 11:12

days 4:6

Dead 5:14 7:4

deadline 73:6 78:18

deadlines 86:4

deal 125:19 157:22

dealing 21:6,10,13

75:8

dealt 85:8 105:2

Dear 161:16

debate 40:17 43:13

43:14 45:2 69:16

71:19 91:6,12

94:6 107:2 161:22

decade 22:20 66:6

decent 10:17

decided 15:17

deciding 151:18

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7

7 4:7

8

8 4:8

8:30 1:10 4:3

8:31 4:2,4

80 158:20

9

9 4:9

9:43 71:13

9:53 71:14

922509 63:6