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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURE MARKETING SERVICE (AMS)

NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM (NOP)

+ + + + +

MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIC

STANDARDS BOARD (NOSB)

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

OCTOBER 28, 2010

+ + + + +

The National Organic Standards

Board convened at 8:00 a.m. at the Best

Western InnTowner, 2424 University Avenue,

Madison, Wisconsin, Daniel G. Giacomini,

Chairman, presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT

DANIEL G. GIACOMINI, Chairman

STEVE DeMURI 

JOE DICKSON

KRISTINE "TINA" ELLOR

KEVIN K. ENGELBERT

JAY FELDMAN

BARRY R. FLAMM

JOHN FOSTER

WENDY FULWIDER

JENNIFER M. HALL

KATRINA HEINZE

TRACY MIEDEMA

JEFFREY W. MOYER

JOSEPH SMILLIE
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STAFF PRESENT

MILES McEVOY, Deputy Administrator, National

Organic Program

LISA AHRAMJIAN, Executive Director

MELISSA BAILEY, Director, Standards Division,

National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, Standards Division, National 

Organic Program

MARK LIPSON, Organic and Sustainable 

Agriculture Policy Advisor, Office of

the Secretary

ARTHUR NEAL, Director of Program 

Administration, National Organic Program

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, Agricultural Marketing 

Specialist 
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TABLE OF CONTENTS

Call to Order - Dan Giacomini ...... 5

NOSB Consideration and Vote on Committee

Action Items

Crops Committee - Tina Ellor ...... 5

 Petitioned Materials Recommendations

 Reaffirm Prior Sunset 2012 Recommendations

 on § 205.601 & § 205.602 

 Sunset 2012 Recommendations on § 205.601 !

 EPA List 4

 Corn Steep Liquor Recommendation

Livestock Committee - Kevin Engelbert . . 59

 Petitioned Material Recommendation

 Reaffirm Prior Sunset 2012 Recommendations

 on § 205.603 and § 205.604

 Sunset 2012 Recommendations on § 205.603

 Apiculture Recommendation Animal 

Healthcare Products / Clarifying § 

205.238(c)(2) Recommendation 

Handling Committee - Steve DeMuri . . . . 99

 Petitioned Materials Recommendations

 Reaffirm Prior Sunset 2012 Recommendations

 on § 205.605(a), § 205.605(b), and § 

 205.606 

 Reconsider Prior Sunset 2012 

Recommendation on Glycerides (Mono and Di) 

 Colors Annotation Recommendation 

 Sunset 2012 Recommendations on § 

205.605(a) 

 Sunset 2012 Recommendations on § 

205.605(b) 

 Sunset 2012 Recommendations on § 205.606

Materials Committee - Katrina Heinze . 273

 Nanotechnology Guidance Document 
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Compliance, Accreditation, and Certification

 Committee - Joe Smillie . . . . . . . 283

 "Made With" Organic Claim Recommendation

 Limitations of § 205.101(b) Recommendation

Policy Development Committee - 

 Barry Flamm . . . . . . . . . . . . . 307

 NOSB Policy and Procedure Manual 

 Recommendations

 NOSB New Member Guide Update 

 Recommendation 

Committee Workplans . . . . . . . . . . 350

Selection of NOSB Officers and

Committee Chairs . . . . . . . . . . . 378

Other Business and Closing . . . . . . 383
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:06 a.m.

3 MR. GIACOMINI: The Thursday

4 session of this meeting of the National

5 Organic Standard Board is now in session.

6 Board members are seated and we have a quorum.

7 We have a few things that we need

8 to accomplish today that are not on the

9 agenda. We have a very full agenda, and

10 depending on how things go we may very well

11 likely end up way behind schedule, as usual

12 for this meeting. 

13 So, what we have decided to do is

14 to take the three items that are, that we need

15 to accomplish that are not on the agenda and

16 use them to get behind schedule rather than

17 ending up behind schedule and not feeling like

18 we have the time to do those three things. 

19 So, the first one that we're

20 adding to the agenda is -- Tina, please make

21 your presentation. 

22 MS. ELLOR: I'm hoping there is
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1 time because this is very brief. I thought of,

2 for a long time, what I would say if I had

3 this chance to express my appreciation for

4 everything Valerie did for us as her time,

5 with her time as executive Director. 

6 And I've distilled it down to

7 very, very few words. She did the work of ten.

8 There could have been no better captain to

9 have steered the NOSB through years of rocky

10 and shark-infested water, and did it with

11 kindness, tolerance, and true care for the

12 Board members and for the integrity of the

13 organic label. 

14 So we have something we'd like to

15 give to you, if you wouldn't mind coming up

16 here. 

17 MS. FRANCES: It's beautiful. I

18 love the color.

19 MS. ELLOR: And I have to say, for

20 the record, that Bea found this for us and

21 helped us out. 

22 MR. MCEVOY: Okay, good morning.
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1 Want to congratulate the, I guess the

2 graduates of the National Organics Standards

3 Board that are moving onto other pastures,

4 greener pastures, some other pastures. Some

5 kind of access to the outdoors. 

6 And I thought I would read

7 something from Sand County Almanac inspired by

8 Barry Flamm, just a couple of things, since

9 Aldo Leopold was from this area and said

10 things very eloquently, a lot more eloquently

11 than I can. 

12 And I think it embodies some of

13 the goals that these five Board members

14 brought to the Board, what they were trying to

15 accomplish here with the National Organics

16 Standards Board. Kevin Engelbert, Dan

17 Giacomini, Jennifer Hall, Jeff Moyer, and Joe

18 Smillie. 

19 There are some who can live

20 without wild things, and some who cannot.

21 These essays are the delights and dilemmas of

22 one who cannot. Like winds and sunsets, wild
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1 things were taken for granted until progress

2 began to do away with them. 

3 Now we face the question, whether

4 a still higher standard of living is worth its

5 cost in things natural, wild, and free. For us

6 of the minority, the opportunity to see geese

7 is more important than television. And the

8 chance to find a pasque flower is a right as

9 inalienable as free speech. 

10 These wild things, I admit, had

11 little human value until mechanization assured

12 us of a good breakfast and until science

13 disclosed the drama of where they come from

14 and how they live. The whole conflict thus

15 boils down to a question of degree. We of the

16 minority see a law of diminishing returns in

17 progress, our opponents do not. 

18 So, these essays in Sand County

19 Almanac attempt to weld three concepts

20 together. That land as a community is the

21 basic concept of ecology, but that land is to

22 be loved and respected is an extension of
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1 ethics, that land yields a cultural harvest is

2 a fact long known, but latterly often

3 forgotten. 

4 Such a view of land and people is,

5 of course, subject to the blurs and

6 distortions of personal experience and

7 personal bias. But wherever the truth may lie,

8 this much is crystal clear. Our bigger and

9 better society is now like a hypochondriac, so

10 obsessed with its own economic health as to

11 have lost the capacity to remain healthy. 

12 The whole world is so greedy for

13 more bathtubs, it has lost the stability

14 necessary to build them, or even to turn off

15 the tap. Nothing could be more salutary at

16 this stage than a little healthy contempt for

17 a plethora of material blessings. 

18 Perhaps such a shift of values can

19 be achieved by reappraising things unnatural,

20 tame and confined in terms of things natural,

21 wild, and free. So, anyway, thank you very

22 much for your service, and we have some
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1 plaques and things for you. 

2 MS. ELLOR: Your fellow Board

3 members got together and, with the help of

4 Lisa, have some fabulous departing gifts for

5 you. So, yes, and I'm going to make you get up

6 to get them. So. How about you first, Jeff?

7 And Tracy, if you wouldn't mind grabbing my

8 camera from Jeff, then we can document this.

9 Oh, well, hopefully they'll

10 survive. So, just for the first bag here, I

11 want to show people what, what Lisa came up

12 with, and this is just brilliant, I think you

13 will love it. Hold the shirt up and read it to

14 the audience. 

15 MR. MOYER: I didn't put my glasses

16 on but it's USDA organic NOSB -- you read it.

17 MS. ELLOR: It says, "organic

18 integrity from farm to table, consumers trust

19 the organic label". And it's an organic shirt.

20 And then other Board members contributed

21 various things which will be a surprise. Dan?

22 Joe? Jennifer? And last, but certainly not
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1 least, Kevin. All right. And that's all I

2 have. Kevin. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Thank you

4 very much. Today is the, our final discussion

5 and voting day for Board recommendations

6 presented for final consideration by the

7 various Committees. 

8 The Committees have worked for

9 months on these recommendations, and have

10 respectfully viewed public comments submitted

11 both online and in person at this meeting. I

12 have always found it impressive, the

13 responsiveness that Committees grant to the

14 public input. 

15 Frequently, a Committee works well

16 into the night, during the meeting, to re17 craft a recommendation for consideration by

18 the Board, with sometimes minor changes and

19 sometimes major changes based on public

20 comment they received. 

21 Again, we thank the public for

22 their input and the Committees for their great
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1 work. However, now is the time for the final

2 consideration and vote. The Board asks that

3 the members of the audience refrain from

4 emails, phone texts, and other forms of

5 electronic communication during this voting

6 process. 

7 And we thank you in advance for

8 your consideration to the fairness of all

9 parties involved. Chair would like to make a

10 special request to the Committee vice chairs,

11 please try to keep track of all changes made

12 to the recommendations for your Committee. 

13 We often have additional changes

14 done, sometimes minor tweaks in things on this

15 final day, and so that we make sure we have

16 both the version from the -- that Lisa will be

17 keeping, and a version from the Committee and

18 hopefully they will be the same. 

19 Okay, we proceed today in the same

20 order as we used previously to work through

21 the various Committees. So, Tina is passing

22 out the voting sheet. Jennifer, could you
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1 please take those from Tina and finish passing

2 so that she can begin her work with crops? 

3 MS. ELLOR: Thank you, Mr.

4 Chairman. We're starting today with ethylene

5 glycol, which I'll hand over to Jeff in a

6 moment. And Jeff is also going to say

7 something about, you know, what, how the

8 Committee is going to communicate with the NOP

9 about the inert, reviewing inerts issue. 

10 We are going to go ahead with

11 three of the four materials today, but, well,

12 I'll let Jeff talk about what the options for

13 the petitioners are. 

14 MR. MOYER: Thank you, Tina. Yes,

15 what we've decided to do as a Committee is to

16 present our guidance language, formerly out of

17 Committee, to the program exactly as the way

18 we presented it to the whole Board on, I

19 believe it was on Monday. Actually, Tuesday,

20 I'm sorry. It was on Tuesday. 

21 Giving the program some guidance

22 on how to respond to new petitions coming into
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1 the, potentially coming into the process,

2 representing inerts. And again, the three main

3 points of that guidance statement are that we

4 suggest, although we have no way of telling

5 potential petitioners what to do, we're

6 suggesting that there's going to be a

7 moratorium on the inert materials coming into

8 the petition process. 

9 That an allowance of any material

10 currently in the review process as an inert,

11 to be temporarily withdrawn by the petitioner

12 without prejudice, including petition

13 materials evaluated by the Crops Committee for

14 this meeting, and you'll see that we are

15 withdrawing one of them at the petitioner's

16 request. 

17 And then, any materials that are

18 withdrawn, or not withdrawn and voted on at

19 this meeting, can be repetitioned, pending the

20 outcome of the NOP EPA process. And then

21 finally we're going to be voting on the list,

22 the re-listing of the inerts via the sunset
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1 process. 

2 So we're going to submit that

3 directly to the program and through discussion

4 with them they've already indicated that they

5 will be getting in touch with the petitioners

6 and potential petitioners with that message.

7 But in light of that, we will be

8 moving forward with some of the petitions that

9 are in front of the Committee and the Board

10 today. Tina? 

11 MS. ELLOR: Thank you, Jeff. So,

12 since the first material on the agenda is

13 material that you looked at, do you want to go

14 ahead? And you can just use my computer if you

15 want. 

16 MR. MOYER: Thank you, Tina. First

17 material on the Crops Committee's agenda for

18 voting today is ethylene glycol. Ethylene

19 glycol is an inert that is being petitioned to

20 add to the National List. You may recall again

21 from Tuesday that the Committee is

22 recommending that this material not be listed.
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1 First, we voted that it was a

2 synthetic, we voted five to zero on that with

3 two absent. And then we voted to not list this

4 material with a vote of zero yeses, six nos,

5 and one absent for that vote. 

6 So, the Committee's recommendation

7 is that we do not list this material on the

8 National List. At this point in time I'll make

9 a motion that we do not list, or reject,

10 ethylene glycol for listing on 205.601. 

11 MS. ELLOR: And I will second that

12 motion. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

14 and seconded. I'm sorry, can you please state

15 that, the motion, Mr. Chairman? 

16 MR. MOYER: Yes, I'll try to make

17 the motion in the affirmative. The Crops

18 Committee recommends that we list ethylene

19 glycol on the National List, 205.601. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, with that,

21 before we go second, could you make the motion

22 that that substance be added to the National
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1 List in that section? Katrina? 

2 MR. MOYER: I believe I just did

3 that. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Go ahead.

5 MS. HEINZE: I believe we have to

6 vote on whether it's synthetic or not first.

7 MR. GIACOMINI: We will. 

8 MS. HEINZE: Don't we need that

9 motion first? 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. We're new at

11 this two-step process. We're trying to make

12 sure we get it right. Okay. Let's start with

13 -- just for the record, Tina, withdraw your

14 second for the initial motion, which we don't

15 want to deal with. 

16 MS. ELLOR: I withdraw my second. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. All right, so

18 the first step that we need is a motion to

19 approve that the substance is determined to be

20 synthetic. 

21 MR. MOYER: Thank you, Mr.

22 Chairman. I make a motion that we list
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1 ethylene glycol as a synthetic. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Now, we don't want

3 to list it yet, we just want to approve that

4 it is synthetic.

5 MR. MOYER: That we classify it as

6 synthetic. Thank you. 

7 MS. ELLOR: And I will second. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Been moved

9 and seconded that we classify ethylene glycol

10 as a synthetic. Mr. Maker of the Motion, do

11 you have any further comment? 

12 MR. MOYER: I do not. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

14 Seeing none, proceed to vote. Okay. Oh boy.

15 Okay. Jeff. We also have to work on our voting

16 sheet here. 

17 I apologize for this, folks, we

18 had a number of things that we were working on

19 late into the night on and very hard through

20 the morning, and some of these kind of things

21 we were unable to catch up on. 

22 All right. Beginning with -- on
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1 the motion to classify this material as

2 synthetic. Okay, are we ready? Jane, Katrina,

3 are we ready? Okay, is everyone else ready to

4 vote? Okay. To classify this substance as

5 synthetic, Jay? 

6 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

8 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

10 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

12 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

14 MS. HALL: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

16 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

18 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

20 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

22 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

2 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

4 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

6 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

8 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

10 One abstain -- I mean, one absent. I'm sorry.

11 So, we are zero no, fourteen yes, one abstain.

12 Madam Vice Chair, could you -- I mean one

13 absent, I'm sorry. I keep saying that. One

14 absent. You need to help us track vote so we

15 make sure we get them right. 

16 Oh, she's no longer absent, we

17 just have. Okay. All right. 

18 MR. MCEVOY: Dan? 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes? 

20 MR. MCEVOY: You have to do the

21 conflict of interest --

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes, yes we do. I
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1 don't -- I didn't think there was too much

2 conflict of interest on whether to classify

3 it, but we do need to do that. And I will need

4 to be reminded regularly. I hope I finally get

5 that by the time. So, any conflict of interest

6 on this substance? Seeing none. Okay. We

7 proceed to the recommendation on the listing.

8

9 MR. MOYER: I make a motion that we

10 list ethylene glycol on the National List

11 205.601. 

12 MS. ELLOR: I will second. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

14 to list ethylene glycol on National List

15 section 205.601. Mr. Maker of the Motion, any

16 further debate? 

17 MR. MOYER: No. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Any further debate?

19 Seeing none, we'll proceed to vote. On the

20 listing, to, to add -- correct. The motion is

21 made in the affirmative because the action of

22 the Board that's of importance, that takes
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1 action, is the fact of listing. 

2 All substantive votes or

3 definitive votes of the Board require a two4 thirds majority, so if we were to proceed with

5 the motion in the negative, which is the

6 recommendation of the Committee to not list,

7 if that were the way we presented the motion,

8 and it failed at the Board level, we still

9 would not have achieved the action of whether

10 we place it on the list or not. 

11 So by making the motion in the

12 form of listing, we only have to make one vote

13 to know what we're going to do. It either

14 passes, two-thirds, or it fails and it's not

15 listed. The recommendation from the Crops

16 Committee is a no vote on this listing. 

17 It may seem a little awkward,

18 parliamentarily, it's similar to presentation

19 of -- voting on bylaws, where a new regulation

20 is presented by the public, which is what

21 majority of the listing items for petitions

22 are. 
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1 We vote based -- the Board votes

2 on that recommendation as it's presented. So

3 that's where we proceed. Even when we proceed

4 to sunset, the action of the Board that is

5 important is whether we're re-listing, not by,

6 if we've, not by a motion to not re-list, and

7 it passes. 

8 That would not necessarily mean

9 that it is re-listed. The only thing is

10 whether we vote reassert to re-list and

11 whether that passes or fails. We do not need

12 to action to not re-list, an action to, no

13 action by the Board on a substantive sunset

14 means that it would come off on its own

15 without our action.

16 So this saves us, while it makes a

17 long, drawn-out explanation at every meeting,

18 it saves us a tremendous amount of time at the

19 voting level. So the motion is to list

20 ethylene glycol and the recommendation from

21 the Committee is a no vote. 

22 So we will proceed. Question? Joe?
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1 MR. SMILLIE: Jay seems ready to

2 vote, and our tradition is to --

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes, we will move

4 down. We move one down whenever we do another

5 vote. So, are we ready for the question? Okay.

6 Katrina? 

7 MS. HEINZE: No. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

9 MS. FULWIDER: No. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

11 MR. ENGELBERT: No. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

13 MS. HALL: No. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

15 MR. MOYER: No. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

17 MS. ELLOR: No. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

19 MS. MIEDEMA: No. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

21 MR. SMILLIE: No. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 
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1 MR. DICKSON: No. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

3 MR. FLAMM: No. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

5 MR. DEMURI: No. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

7 MR. FOSTER: No. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

9 MR. FELDMAN: No. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes no. Oh

11 boy. Do we have any conflicts of interest on,

12 regarding the substance? Ethylene glycol. We

13 voted, but we didn't, no, it--well, just to

14 make sure. Okay. Yes. We should only have to

15 ask that one time on each substance. Okay. So,

16 zero no -- I mean, fourteen no. Zero yes.

17 Motion fails. 

18 All right, next substance, Madam

19 Chairperson? 

20 MS. ELLOR: Thank you. The next

21 substance on our work plan this morning is

22 tall oil. Oh, I'm sorry. We decided as a
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1 Committee to withdraw, or to allow for the

2 withdraw of the EDDS, and I don't know if,

3 Jay, you want to say anything more about that.

4 But the petitioner did ask us to

5 withdraw that pending the outcome of the

6 collaboration on list inerts. I'm not going to

7 say a list. Inerts. Between the NOP, the EPA,

8 and the NOSB. And we have done that without

9 prejudice. 

10 So, you can make a line through

11 your voting sheet on that one. The next one is

12 tall oil, which was my material. I took point

13 on that one. Which, as we mentioned in

14 discussions on Tuesday, the substance, the

15 Crops Committee is recommending against

16 listing tall oil. 

17 The substance fails criteria

18 categories one, two, and three, and our

19 comment is that even though tall oil is being

20 petitioned as an inert, it also has

21 insecticidal properties, so the Committee felt

22 that it failed the environmental impact
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1 category. 

2 There are alternatives, therefore

3 the Committee does not feel it was essential,

4 and the Committee determined that it is not

5 compatible or consistent with organics and

6 sustainable agriculture. We voted as a

7 Committee to classify the material as

8 synthetic on a vote of six to zero, with one

9 absent and no abstentions and no conflicts. 

10 So the first motion I'd like to

11 make is that we classify tall oil as

12 synthetic. 

13 MR. MOYER: I'll second that

14 motion.

15 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

16 and seconded to classify tall oil as

17 synthetic. Madam Maker of the Motion, do you

18 have any further debate? Tina? Do you have any

19 further debate?

20 MS. ELLOR: No. No, I don't. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Any further

22 debate? 
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1 MR. MOYER: Do conflicts of

2 interest first? 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Conflicts of

4 interest on tall oil? Seeing none, ready for

5 the question? Proceed to vote on the

6 classification of tall oil as synthetic.

7 Wendy? 

8 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

10 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

12 MS. HALL: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

14 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

16 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

18 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

20 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

2 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

4 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

10 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

12 Zero no, fourteen yes. Running out of room

13 here. Board votes to classify the substance as

14 synthetic. Madam Chairman? 

15 MS. ELLOR: I'd like to make a

16 motion that we list tall oil on -- I'm looking

17 for the list, I'm sorry -- to add tall oil to

18 the National List 205.601 as a synthetic for

19 use in crop production. That's the motion. 

20 MR. MOYER: I'll second that

21 motion.

22 MR. GIACOMINI: It's been moved and
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1 seconded to add tall oil to the National List

2 section 205.601 as a synthetic. Madam Maker of

3 the Motion, do you have any further debate? 

4 MS. ELLOR: No, I do not. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Any further debate?

6 Ready for the question. So, the motion to add

7 tall oil to the National List Section 205.601

8 as a synthetic. The Board -- the Committee

9 recommendation is a no vote. Kevin? 

10 MR. ENGELBERT: No. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: I did conflicts.

12 That's all right, I'm going to have to clean

13 this anyway, I'll need, I'll get that ink out.

14 Jennifer? 

15 MS. HALL: No. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

17 MR. MOYER: No. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

19 MS. ELLOR: No. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

21 MS. MIEDEMA: No. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 
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1 MR. SMILLIE: No. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

3 MR. DICKSON: No. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

5 MR. FLAMM: No. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

7 MR. DEMURI: No. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

9 MR. FOSTER: No. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: No. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

13 MS. HEINZE: No. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

15 MS. FULWIDER: No. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Fourteen -- chair.

17 Chair, no. Fourteen no. Yes, zero. No abstain,

18 no absent. The motion fails. Next item, Madam

19 Chairman? 

20 MS. ELLOR: The next item is

21 tetramethyl. We'll just call it tetramethyl.

22 Barry, would you like to take that one? 
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1 MR. FLAMM: The Committee reviewed

2 tetramethyl and found it failed all three

3 categories. The vote was one to list and five

4 not to list and one absent. Oh, and, excuse

5 me, we voted that it's synthetic. I move that

6 we classify tetramethyl as a synthetic. 

7 MR. MOYER: I will second that

8 motion. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

10 and seconded to classify tetramethyl as a

11 synthetic. Maker of the Motion, do you have

12 any further debate? Further debate? Conflict

13 of interest? Seeing none, we're ready for the

14 question. 

15 MR. MCEVOY: Dan? We should put the

16 full name of the product into the record. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. I'll request

18 the Chairman of the Crops Committee to do

19 that, please. 

20 MS. ELLOR: All right, all right.

21 Tetramethyldecynediol. And, yes, yes, okay,

22 okay, okay. Got it. 2,4,7,9-tetramethyl-5-
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1 decyne-4,7-diol. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: There you go. Okay.

3 So we have conflict of interest. Questions,

4 and we are ready for the question. Believe

5 we're up to -- who are we up to? Jennifer?

6 Okay. Jennifer? 

7 MS. HALL: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

9 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

11 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

13 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

15 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

17 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

19 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

21 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 
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1 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

5 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

7 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

9 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

11 Zero no, fourteen yes. Classified as a

12 synthetic. Madam Chair? 

13 MS. ELLOR: I will pass it back to

14 Barry for the next motion. 

15 MR. FLAMM: Should I read the full

16 name for the record? Okay. I move that

17 2,4,7,9-tetramethyl--5-decyne-4,7-diol be

18 listed under 601. 

19 MR. MOYER: I'll second that

20 motion.

21 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

22 and seconded to list tetramethyldecynediol on
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1 section 601. Mr. Maker of the Motion, further

2 debate? Further debate, Barry? 

3 MR. FLAMM: No further debate. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. What's the

5 recommendation of the Committee? To vote no?

6 MR. FLAMM: To vote no. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Vote no. No vote is

8 the recommendation of the Committee. Any

9 further debate? Okay. Seeing none, proceed to

10 vote. Jeff? 

11 MR. MOYER: No. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

13 MS. ELLOR: No. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

15 MS. MIEDEMA: No. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

17 MR. SMILLIE: No. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

19 MR. DICKSON: No. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

21 MR. FLAMM: No. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 
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1 MR. DEMURI: No. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

3 MR. FOSTER: No. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

5 MR. FELDMAN: No. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

7 MS. HEINZE: No. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

9 MS. FULWIDER: No. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

11 MR. ENGELBERT: No. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

13 MS. HALL: No. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes no.

15 Fourteen nos, zero yes. Listing fails. Next

16 item. 

17 MS. ELLOR: The next item on our

18 agenda this morning is the reaffirmation of

19 the sunset 2012 votes that we took in April.

20 And I'm going to go through and read the items

21 that we're reaffirming that we voted on, to

22 re-list during the sunset votes in April. 
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1 Hydrogen peroxide, soap-based

2 algicides, demossers, herbicide, soap-based,

3 for use in farmstead maintenance, mulches,

4 newspapers or other recycled paper, you know,

5 I'm sorry, the form that this document is in

6 is very difficult to read. I should have gone

7 through and listed these out separately. 

8 We separated them into category

9 uses, and that's the way I'm reading them.

10 Hydrogen peroxide, soap-based algicides,

11 demossers. Herbicide, soap-based, for use in

12 farmstead maintenance. As mulches, newspapers,

13 and other recycled paper, plastic mulches,

14 plastic mulching covers. 

15 As animal repellents, soap,

16 ammonia for use as large animal repellent

17 only. As insecticides, ammonium carbonate,

18 boric acid, elemental sulfur, lime sulfur,

19 oils, horticulturals, soaps, insecticidal.

20 Sticky traps and barriers, sucrose octenoate

21 esters.

22 As plant disease control, hydrated
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1 lime, hydrogen peroxide, lime sulfur,

2 horticultural oils, potassium bicarbonate,

3 elemental sulfur. As planter soil amendments,

4 aquatic plant extracts, elemental sulfur,

5 humic acids, micronutrients, soluble boron

6 products. 

7 Sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or

8 silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese,

9 molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt. Liquid fish

10 products, vitamins B1, C, and E. Those were

11 the 205.601 listings. 

12 The 205.602 that we recommended,

13 and these are materials, of course, not

14 allowed for use in organic agriculture. Ash

15 from manure burning, arsenic, lead salts,

16 potassium chloride, unless derived from a mine

17 source and applied in a manner that minimizes

18 chloride accumulation in soil. 

19 Sodium flow aluminate, strychnine

20 and tobacco dust. So, our recommendation as a

21 Committee is to -- I'm sorry, Lisa? 

22 MS. AHRAMJIAN: Tina, I think that
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1 you read, on, under mulches, the newspaper and

2 other recycled paper without glossy and

3 colored and plastic mulch and other covers.

4 The Committee recommended to delay a vote on

5 that. 

6 MS. ELLOR: You are correct. Thank

7 you for pointing that out. We sent that out

8 for further technical review. So those are not

9 part of our -- they were not part of our April

10 2012 Board. 

11 So, the Committee is recommending

12 re-listing of those items -- the Committee is

13 recommending reaffirming the vote we took in

14 April as a Board on those 2012 sunset

15 materials. 

16 I would like to make a motion that

17 we reaffirm the Board vote, re-listing those,

18 and don't make me read them again, those 2012

19 sunset materials. 

20 MS. MIEDEMA: Second. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

22 and seconded to reaffirm the votes of the
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1 April 2010 sunset recommendation for re2 listing of sunset. Any further debate? I don't

3 know whether there would be any conflict of

4 interest. 

5 Madam Chairperson, just for the

6 clarification of the record, were there any

7 changes to the April recommendation that we

8 are not voting to reaffirm? Just so that we're

9 official. 

10 MS. ELLOR: No, there are none. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: So it is exactly as

12 voted on in April, is what we are voting to

13 reaffirm? 

14 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Is

16 everyone clear on that? Hopefully the record

17 will be clear as well. Ready for the question?

18 Tina. 

19 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

21 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 
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1 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

3 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

5 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

7 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

9 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

13 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

15 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

17 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

19 MS. HALL: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

21 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.
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1 Motion passes. Zero no, fourteen yeses, motion

2 passes. Next item, Madam Chairperson? 

3 MS. ELLOR: The next item on our

4 agenda is the sunset 2012 EPA list for inerts,

5 which I will turn over to Jeff. 

6 MR. MOYER: Thank you, Tina. EPA

7 list for inerts of minimal concern, as

8 currently appears on the list under 205.601

9 under the sunset process, the Committee

10 recommends that we continue with the re11 listing of the EPA list for inerts of minimal

12 concern. 

13 It came out of Committee with a

14 vote of four yeses, two nos, and one was

15 absent. There is a minority opinion on this,

16 but I think this is a two vote, so we're just

17 going to leave it -- or do you want me to

18 address the minority opinion at this point? I

19 want it known that there is a minority

20 opinion. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: We can state the

22 minority opinion, of course. Let's wait and do
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1 that in discussion, though. Let's make the

2 original motion, proceed with the second. 

3 MR. MOYER: I make a motion that

4 we, under the sunset process, re-list EPA list

5 for inerts of minimal concern under 205.601.

6 MS. ELLOR: And I would second

7 that.

8 MR. GIACOMINI: It's been moved and

9 seconded to re-list EPA list for inerts under

10 205.601 for sunset 2012 review. Mr. Maker of

11 the Motion, further debate? 

12 MR. MOYER: Yes, I would like to

13 bring to the attention of the Board that there

14 is a minority opinion to this motion. The

15 minority opinion without reading it in detail,

16 since we did read it the other day, has mainly

17 to do with the time frame under which we're

18 asking the program to react to an affirmative

19 motion here. 

20 Under the standard sunset process,

21 as we all know, there's a five year time frame

22 on the Board taking action on this item again.
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1 The minority opinion is asking that this be

2 re-listed only for three years so that we can

3 expedite the process. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

5 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6 The minority would like to amend the motion to

7 three years. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: This is a sunset

9 review where we're not looking at, that would

10 be a major annotation change that would not be

11 in order at this time. The process for Crops

12 Committee, for the minority, would be to

13 proceed with that through the Crops Committee

14 for a recommendation change, to change the

15 annotation of this listing at the spring

16 meeting. 

17 Further debate? Further questions?

18 Are we ready for the question? Conflict of

19 interest? 

20 MS. ELLOR: Can we go through the

21 Committee recommendation? 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 
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1 MS. HEINZE: I know we talked about

2 this a little bit earlier, for list four, but

3 is the Committee going to proceed with your

4 thoughts on list four in general? How is all

5 of list four going to come together, is, I

6 guess, what I'm asking. Right? Because we have

7 the guidance that we discussed earlier this

8 week, and you talked about earlier this

9 morning we have the re-listing. 

10 Is it your intention that you'll

11 come forward with the guidance, that we not

12 look at list fours until the collaboration

13 between the program and the Board and EPA

14 comes together? I just need a reminder of how

15 it all comes together. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

17 MR. MOYER: Thank you, Mr.

18 Chairman. I'll try to answer that the best

19 that I can with the limited information

20 because it does involve, obviously, the

21 program. 

22 Our intent here is to re-list all
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1 the materials as they exist on a static list,

2 not a dynamic list, it's a very static list

3 that had a cutoff time period which we heard

4 in public comment yesterday. 

5 To re-list that, under the sunset

6 process, which means typically it will go for

7 five years, pending the minority opinion and

8 the outcome of that. What we're going to do

9 then, is we're working with the, the Committee

10 and the full Board will be working with the

11 program and with EPA to develop a different

12 process by which these materials will be

13 evaluated in the future. 

14 I believe in discussion with the

15 program and with Arthur in particular, it is

16 the intent of the program to expedite this and

17 not have to wait till five years is up before

18 this is passed through. But we all recognize

19 that it does take time for these things to

20 happen, particularly when you're dealing with

21 cross-agencies like this, and creating new

22 Memorandums of Understanding. 
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1 And there are a lot of materials

2 to look at. Our goal, again, talking with

3 Arthur, is to reduce the number of materials

4 that we actually have to look at by paring

5 down that list to, as we mentioned at the

6 April meeting, looking at the naturals and

7 creating a sublist, and suggesting to

8 pesticide manufacturers, that they reformulate

9 to those because they don't have to put those

10 on the list. 

11 Many may not be able to do that,

12 so then we're going to have a sublist of what

13 they absolutely need to work with or what

14 certifiers are currently certifying, what

15 products are they certifying. With the

16 program, and the EPA, they can go to those

17 manufacturers and elicit the information that

18 they need on that, where we have no authority

19 to do that. 

20 So we're thinking that we're going

21 to shrink down that list, get to a point that

22 is manageable for the program and for this
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1 Board, then moving forward, our intention on

2 the document we passed back in April, was then

3 to have folks come forward with petitions for

4 inerts under maybe a slightly different set of

5 evaluation criteria. 

6 We don't know what that will be

7 yet, because that needs to be developed by the

8 program and the help with the EPA. Because

9 under our current evaluation criteria, most of

10 these things, the ones that come in through as

11 synthetics, will fail because we're looking at

12 them as actives. 

13 So we need a new process for that,

14 that's the plan. Does that help?

15 MS. HEINZE: And in the meantime,

16 you, what I heard was you wanted to pause all

17 reviews of inerts while that process unfolds.

18 Is that correct? 

19 MR. MOYER: That is correct. While

20 we have no authority to stop someone from

21 petitioning this Board with materials through

22 the program, our message to the program was
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1 that we were asking them to relay a message

2 back to the potential petitioners of inerts

3 that we are asking for a moratorium on that

4 until this new process is defined. 

5 And we are recommending that it be

6 in their best interest as well as ours to

7 follow that. But we can't stop them, so you

8 may see new petitions on inerts. I don't know.

9

10 MS. HEINZE: Thank you. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

12 MR. FELDMAN: Appreciate the work

13 of the Committee on this and Jeff in

14 particular for all your work. This is a

15 critical issue, I just want to just restate

16 for the record that this is an urgent, urgent,

17 urgent issue.

18 We cannot fulfill our statutory

19 duty in terms of materials review without this

20 information. If this lags, we are really out

21 of step with our duties here to evaluate the

22 full range of impacts of product ingredients.
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1 And while I certainly defer to the

2 chair on this matter, and I'm not objecting to

3 your decision, I believe that it is in order

4 to amend a motion of this nature, which is

5 certainly a policy motion. We're not seeking

6 to amend an annotation here. 

7 We're seeking to expedite, or, you

8 know, speed up the timeframe in which we would

9 review these things, but, again, we defer, the

10 minority defers to the pleasure of the chair

11 and just want to reemphasize the urgent nature

12 of this issue. Thank you. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: The chair will be

14 happy to refer to the program. Would the

15 program see a change in this listing to

16 essentially add an annotation of a drop dead

17 date as an annotation change? In the

18 rulemaking process? 

19 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, adding an

20 annotation would be adding an annotation,

21 that's not currently allowed --

22 MR. GIACOMINI: I didn't mean to,
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1 to set you up there, but I didn't know how

2 else to say it. Okay. I think the program then

3 concurs on that. With the point of view of the

4 chair and the chair's ruling that, in our

5 current policy, that's not in order at this

6 time. 

7 Further debate on the question?

8 Seeing none, ready for the question. Proceed

9 to vote. Any conflict of interest? Tina? 

10 MS. ELLOR: Jeff, could you restate

11 the motion, please? 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Wait. Before we do

13 that, any conflict of interest? Seeing none,

14 Jeff, please restate the motion. 

15 MR. MOYER: I believe the motion I

16 made is to re-list EPA list for inerts of

17 minimal concern on list 205.601 under the

18 sunset process. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Are we ready

20 for the question? What he said. Tracy? 

21 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 
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1 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

3 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

5 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

7 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

9 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

13 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

15 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

17 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

19 MS. HALL: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

21 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 
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1 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

3 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

4 item, Madam Chairperson? 

5 MS. ELLOR: The next item on our

6 agenda this morning is corn steep liquor. We

7 really struggled with this one, as a

8 Committee, and we got a lot of new information

9 during public comment, and we got together

10 this morning to try and find, you know, a

11 compromise that would make everybody

12 comfortable with voting on this material. 

13 And what we decided as a

14 Committee, and we took a vote on it, and the

15 vote was four to two, to withdraw this from

16 the table for voting at this meeting, and take

17 it back and verify information that we got

18 and, you know, see what other information

19 comes to light. 

20 As we learn more about this very

21 difficult process, not only, you know, do we

22 need to know corn steep liquor processing
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1 inside out, but the ramifications of this

2 decision are so far-reaching that we really

3 felt, or the majority of the opinion felt that

4 caution would be our best policy. So we are

5 withdrawing that from the table for voting at

6 this meeting. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. John? 

8 MR. FOSTER: I would just like to

9 say, I felt there was enough information to

10 make a decision. I was one who, one of the

11 people who wanted to proceed with the vote. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

13 MR. DEMURI: I can live with the

14 Committee's withdrawal, but my concern is that

15 we have a lot of new Board members coming on

16 and a lot of experience leaving, and so we're

17 basically going to have to start the process

18 over, in my mind. 

19 MS. ELLOR: And, you know, those of

20 us who are residual on the crops Committee

21 will, you know, do our best to you know, keep

22 it fresh and be good and patient teachers. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

2 MR. ENGELBERT: And I would just

3 like to add to that that we're, we're not

4 leaving tomorrow. We're going to do everything

5 we can, the members that are leaving in

6 January, to work, you know, this is going to

7 be front and center from now until we leave,

8 to bring the new members up to speed and get

9 them as educated as possible, along with the

10 members that are staying here. 

11 That, we did consider that, at

12 least I did, myself. And I'm comfortable that

13 the new people coming on are qualified and

14 it's not going to take them long to get up to

15 speed, its just, we had so much new

16 information that to give this due process and

17 be able to justify exactly what decision the

18 entire Board comes to, we thought it would be

19 prudent and the best course of action was to

20 withdraw the petition at this time. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

22 MR. SMILLIE: I am respectfully, I
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1 am very disappointed with the Committee

2 decision. I wanted to vote on this issue, I

3 think it's a landmark issue. I thought we had

4 full and complete debate. It's going to come

5 down to differences of opinion, and deeply

6 disappointed that my last vote I could not

7 vote on this issue. 

8 Because, it's not just about corn

9 steep liquor. It's about how we look at

10 synthetics, and I think it's a deep

11 disappointment that we didn't bring this to

12 vote at this time. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

14 MS. HEINZE: I agree with that.

15 Much of the debate We've heard is debate that

16 we had when we went thorough the

17 classification document. I also agree that

18 you have, I think you have the information you

19 need but I support your decision as a

20 Committee. 

21 I would offer the services of the

22 Materials Committee, since we have kind of
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1 that institutional knowledge on

2 classification. And, we can, you know, bring

3 to bear some resources from the material

4 working group who engaged in these debates as

5 well. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

7 MR. SMILLIE: I'm not as well

8 versed in Robert's Rules of Order as you are.

9 Can I make a motion to accept the minority

10 opinion on this? Because the Committee is

11 withdrawing the majority opinion, or can they

12 also withdraw the minority opinion? 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: The Committee's

14 prerogative is the presentation of this matter

15 to the Board. They have, they have decided to

16 not present it to the Board at all. The Chair

17 agrees with Joe and Katrina, though, and is

18 extremely disappointed that we're not able to

19 take action on this at this time. Any--Tina?

20 MS. ELLOR: I was the other

21 Committee member who wanted to bring this to

22 the table, but I think for the same reasons
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1 Joe mentioned that it is such a far reaching

2 matter. I mean, I always think more

3 information is good. 

4 And, you know, although I would

5 have liked to have voted on it today, I'm

6 certainly willing to, you know, put my nose to

7 the grindstone and do whatever we need to do

8 to resolve this in the best possible way. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Further comments?

10 Program? 

11 MR. MCEVOY: So, we totally respect

12 the work of the NOSB on this matter, and just

13 from the program's perspective, we'll continue

14 to allow corn steep liquor as a input in

15 organic systems until the NOSB makes a final

16 determination on this matter. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you for that

18 clarification. Further comment? Okay. Madame

19 Chairperson? 

20 MS. ELLOR: That concludes the

21 agenda items for the Crops Committee and I, I

22 think we're a little ahead of schedule. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: I believe we are,

2 but we're only about ten minutes ahead of

3 schedule. So rather than, well, what I'm

4 saying is, rather than have to break in the

5 middle of Livestock, I would prefer, I think

6 we'd be better off breaking now. 

7 So, it's--twenty after, reconvene

8 please. Please be prompt so we can stay on, on

9 task. 

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

11 matter went off the record at 9:07 a.m. and

12 resumed at 9:27 a.m.)

13 MR. GIACOMINI: We are back in

14 session. We are ready for the Livestock

15 portion of today's agenda. Kevin, if you could

16 so proceed with the Livestock portion. 

17 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. And, as our

18 Committee has been talking and I mentioned

19 Monday, it seems like quite a nice change to

20 not have the controversial subjects for the

21 first time since we've been on the Board. 

22 So, we will proceed through. We
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1 have one petition to material that we made a

2 recommendation on, formic acid. We also have

3 to reaffirm our prior sunset 2012

4 recommendation on 205.603 and 205.604 from the

5 spring 2010 meeting. 

6 We have the remaining twelve

7 materials on our sunset 2012 recommendation

8 that are listed on 205.603. We have the long

9 awaited, much anticipated, and for the most

10 part, roundly approved apiculture

11 recommendation. 

12 And then we have our final

13 recommendation clarifying our 205.238 C2

14 recommendation. And with that, I will turn

15 this over to Jennifer to take us through the

16 formic acid recommendation. 

17 MS. HALL: Thank you Kevin. So the

18 Livestock Committee received a petition to add

19 formic acid to 205.603 for use as a pesticide

20 in honeybee hives. Again, the substance met

21 all the evaluation criteria, and the Committee

22 did vote that it is a synthetic, and did vote
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1 to recommend adding formic acid to the

2 National List 205.603 for use as a pesticide

3 solely within honeybee hives. Is there any

4 discussion? 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Did you make that

6 in the form of a motion? Let's start with the

7 motion on classification, please. 

8 MS. HALL: Yes. So, I would like to

9 make a motion that we classify formic acid as

10 a synthetic. 

11 MR. ENGELBERT: I will second. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

13 and seconded to classify formic acid as a

14 synthetic. Maker of the motion, do you have

15 further comment or debate? 

16 MS. HALL: No. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Further comment and

18 debate? Ready for the question? Any conflict

19 of interest overall on formic acid? Seeing

20 none, proceed to vote. Joe Smillie? 

21 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 
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1 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

3 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

5 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

7 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

9 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

11 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

13 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

15 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

17 MS. HALL: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

19 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

21 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 
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1 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

3 Zero no's, fourteen yes. Motion for

4 classifying the material as synthetic passes.

5 Jennifer? 

6 MS. HALL: Yes, so, now, we will

7 take up adding formic acid to 205.603. I do

8 want to just kind of reiterate that we did not

9 receive much comment, but everything--

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer, can we

11 have the motion and then we'll have debate? 

12 MS. HALL: Sure. So, the Livestock

13 Committee would like to move that we add

14 formic acid to 205.603 for use as a pesticide

15 solely within honeybee hives. 

16 MR. ENGELBERT: I'll second. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

18 and seconded to add formic acid to National

19 List 603. I missed the annotation. Can you

20 please restate that, please, for the record?

21 MS. HALL: The annotation for

22 formic acid is for use as a pesticide solely
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1 within honeybee hives. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Madam

3 Maker of the Motion, further debate? 

4 MS. HALL: Yes, I just want to

5 remind folks that the comments we did receive

6 are in support, and that we have requested a

7 technical review and look forward to receiving

8 that information. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: But the Committee

10 recommends to proceed with it? 

11 MS. HALL: Absolutely. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Because of

13 the nature of--

14 MS. HALL: Because of the timing,

15 the critical nature of adding it before that

16 industry is lost to organic, and because it is

17 in keeping with the apiculture standards with

18 the EU and with Canada, it is in use. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

20 MR. SMILLIE: I totally support the

21 motion, but I'm just wondering, we don't, we

22 can, we can move forward without a TR, right?
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1 That's been established? We've done that in

2 the past? So, this is not a problematic or

3 precedent setting--

4 MR. GIACOMINI: The Committee is

5 recommending that we proceed at this because

6 of the nature of its situation with the

7 industry in conjunction with the apiculture

8 recommendation and the overall rulemaking

9 structure that the program faces in moving

10 forward with this so that we do not end up

11 with a situation where we have regulations for

12 organic honeybees for honey but no bees left

13 to make them. 

14 MR. SMILLIE: As I said, I totally

15 support the motion, I just want to make sure

16 that this isn't precedent setting. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. And the

18 Livestock Committee, I believe, intends to

19 review that. Certainly review the TR. Kevin?

20 MR. ENGELBERT: And I'd like to

21 reiterate, we did receive a lot of information

22 from the petitioner that we thought was sound,
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1 and Jennifer did a lot of personal research

2 and we are very, very confident in what

3 received as--

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Program? 

5 MR. NEAL: Just a comment on the

6 proposal is that when presenting it to us,

7 also, make sure you let us know specifically

8 where you want it listed. Right now it says to

9 603. Where in 603 do you want it listed?

10 603(a)? 603(b)? So that we don't place it

11 where we think it should go, but where you

12 recommend it should go. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Livestock

14 Committee, if you could do that correctly and

15 quickly, we can proceed. Otherwise we could

16 withdraw that motion for this time, consult

17 with it on during break, and proceed with this

18 item later. 

19 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes, we'll get back

20 to you on that. We had that figured out at one

21 point and somehow it got lost in the

22 translation. So, we'll come back. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. So, Madam

2 Maker of the Motion, please withdraw your

3 motion. 

4 MS. HALL: I withdraw my motion. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. So we have

6 formic acid voted on and classified as a

7 synthetic. Motion on exactly where it will be

8 placed? 

9 MR. ENGELBERT: It's under (b.) 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: (b.)? 

11 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Maker of the

13 Motion, please restate your motion, please. 

14 MS. HALL: The livestock Committee

15 moves to add formic acid to 205.603B for use

16 as a pesticide solely within honeybee hives.

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? 

18 MR. ENGELBERT: I'll second. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Is the

20 Program, Program's looking concerned. 

21 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, I don't seeing

22 the logic of putting it in (b.). A miticide is
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1 not a parasiticide, if that's what you're

2 thinking. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. I think, I'd

4 recommend the Maker of the Motion withdraw--

5 MS. HALL: I withdraw. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: --this again, and

7 look it over, okay. We'll look that over and,

8 and hopefully figure out exactly the best way

9 that everybody agrees. We can come back to

10 that at a later time. Kevin, please proceed

11 with the next item for Livestock. 

12 MR. ENGELBERT: Okay. The next item

13 is to reaffirm our prior 2012 sunset

14 recommendation from the spring 2010 meeting.

15 For those items on 205.603 and 205.604. I'll

16 turn that over to Jeff. 

17 MR. MOYER: Thank you, Mr.

18 Chairman. At this time, I'd like to make a

19 motion to re-list--to reaffirm the spring 2010

20 meeting votes on sunset 2012 recommendations

21 603 and 604. And, unfortunately for myself and

22 for everybody else, since Tina started the
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1 precedent--

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, let's cut

3 that off at the, you want to list them, or? 

4 MR. MOYER: I'm going to list them.

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. 

6 MR. MOYER: The materials are under

7 205.603A as disinfectants and sanitizers.

8 Atropine, biologics, vaccines. Butorphanol,

9 chlorhexidine, electrolytes, flunixin,

10 hydrogen peroxide, iodine, magnesium

11 hydroxide, oxytocin, parasiticides,

12 ivermectin, peroxyacetic and peracetic acid,

13 phosphoric acid, proxylene, tolazoline,

14 xylazine. 

15 We deferred votes on alcohols,

16 ethanol, isopropyl, aspirin, chlorine

17 materials, calcium chlorite, calcium dioxide,

18 sodium hydrochloride, furosemide, glucose,

19 glycerine, and magnesium sulfate. 

20 On 205.603b, as topical

21 treatments, external parasiticides and local

22 anesthetics as applicable, iodine, lidocaine,
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1 lime hydrated, mineral oil, procaine, sucrose,

2 octanoate esters, and we deferred votes on

3 copper sulfate. 

4 Under 205.603d, as feed additives,

5 trace minerals, vitamins for enrichment. Under

6 205.603e, as synthetic inerts, list three,

7 four inerts of minimal concern. Under

8 205.603f, excipients. And under 205.604,

9 category use A, strychnine. My motion is to

10 reaffirm those votes. 

11 MR. ENGELBERT: I will second. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

13 and seconded to reaffirm the voting for sunset

14 2012 recommendation on section 205.603 and

15 205.604 from the April 2010 meeting. Mr. Maker

16 of the Motion, further debate? 

17 MR. MOYER: There is none. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate or

19 comment? Ready for the question? Can't

20 imagine any conflict of interest. Seeing

21 none. Proceed to vote. Joe Dickson? 

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Again, this is to

2 reaffirm the vote that we took on all these

3 substances for 603, 604, from the spring

4 meeting. Barry? 

5 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

7 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

9 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

13 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

15 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

17 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

19 MS. HALL: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

21 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 
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1 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

3 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

5 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

7 Zero no. Fourteen yes. Motion passes. Okay.

8 Kevin, next item for Livestock. 

9 MR. ENGELBERT: Okay. Our next item

10 is the remainder of our sunset 2012 materials

11 that were deferred from the spring meeting.

12 They are aspirin, chlorine materials, which

13 are calcium hypochlorite, chlorine dioxide,

14 sodium hypochlorite, copper sulfate, alcohols,

15 which include ethanol and isopropanol,

16 furosemide, glucose, glycerine, and magnesium

17 sulfate. 

18 And, it's not listed on the, on

19 the computer here, but also inerts, list four

20 inerts of minimal concern. Again, we've had no

21 negative public comments. We did hear at least

22 one farmer yesterday speak and say that he
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1 uses all of these materials and knows the

2 farmers that do. 

3 Even though we haven't received

4 the TRs that we were hoping for by this

5 meeting, it was the Committee's belief that we

6 should proceed and re-list these, or, make a

7 positive vote that these do not be allowed to

8 sunset.

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. So, we had

10 the motion. We need a second. Do we have a--

11 did you make that a formal motion? 

12 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes, that was the

13 formal motion. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Second? 

15 MR. MOYER: I'll second that. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, now, moved

17 and seconded. Now, we can have any further

18 debate. Maker of the Motion, please, do you

19 have any further debate? 

20 MR. ENGELBERT: No, well, just one

21 quick thing. Again, it was my negative no vote

22 in Committee was simply because of the concern
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1 that we hadn't received the TRs and I, I

2 thought we could wait until this following

3 spring to, to do this vote. 

4 But, you know, that, I just wanted

5 to make that point, that's all. It's, it

6 wasn't that I have deep concerns over any of

7 these materials. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

9 Okay. Seeing none, ready for the question. On

10 the re-listing of the items listed, Kevin,

11 could you please, oh, I believe they're here.

12 Aspirin, chlorine materials, copper sulfate,

13 alcohols, furosemide, glucose, glycerine, and

14 magnesium sulfate. Is that correct list, as on

15 the agenda? 

16 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. And the list

18 four inerts. Okay. We need, that's not, okay.

19 And list four inerts. So, Barry? 

20 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

22 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

2 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

6 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

8 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

10 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

12 MS. HALL: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

14 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

16 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

18 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

20 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

2 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Okay.

3 Just so, for those keeping score with your

4 pencil, at home, with the ten, since our

5 decisive motions needed two thirds, just so

6 that's, we're figured, we got it straight

7 here, anybody that wants to check my numbers

8 is welcome to approach the Chair at some

9 point.

10 Fourteen voting requires ten for,

11 to pass, thirteen yes no votes. Nine to pass,

12 twelve yes no votes, eight to pass. Eleven yes

13 no votes, eight to pass. Ten yes no votes,

14 seven to pass. Nine yes no votes, six to pass.

15 And an abstain is not counted as a vote, only

16 to contribute to the quorum. Next item, Mr.

17 Chairman? 

18 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes, our next item

19 is our, excuse me, our next item is our

20 apiculture recommendation. The Committee did

21 make a few, a couple minor changes in the

22 recommendation based on public comment that we
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1 received since Monday. 

2 And, I'll turn this over to Joe

3 Dickson to take us through our apiculture

4 recommendation. Thank you, Joe. 

5 MR. DICKSON: Thanks, Kevin. Going

6 to walk through the three changes we made now,

7 or should I--

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, walk through

9 the three changes and then move to accept the

10 documents. 

11 MR. DICKSON: Very quickly, we made

12 three changes to the document. The first of

13 which is to 205.248A1, and it's a simple

14 insertion of the words "if used" to the

15 sentence at the beginning of the one year

16 transition foundation wax if used must be

17 replaced, et cetera. 

18 The reason for that insertion is

19 that it would have inadvertently required that

20 foundation be used and there are some

21 production systems that don't use foundation

22 at all. 
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1 The next change that we made is to

2 205.240B3, and we simply changed the language

3 there regarding GMO crops to actually exclude

4 all crops produced using excluded methods,

5 based on public comment that we received

6 yesterday. 

7 The final change is to 205.240C12,

8 and that is just to explicitly require that

9 records of all healthcare interventions and

10 healthcare products used be maintained by the

11 producer. I'd like to move to accept the

12 Livestock Committee's recommendation on

13 apiculture. 

14 MS. ELLOR: I'll second. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

16 and seconded to accept the Livestock's

17 recommendation on apiculture. Maker of the

18 Motion, further debate? Joe? 

19 MR. SMILLIE: I will vote for this.

20 I think it's basically a good document. I do

21 have concerns about the enforcement of the

22 foraging zone. I think it's problematic at
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1 best. 

2 I think it really places a lot of

3 wonderful organic beekeepers at risk,

4 dependent upon, you know, the lawn chemicals

5 of someone in the forage zone. 

6 You know, one application of lawn

7 chemical in a forage zone by a recalcitrant

8 neighbor who doesn't like a gift of honey

9 could cause problems, and I'm just hoping that

10 good will will carry it through and that we

11 will have organic beekeeping and organic honey

12 production in most areas, and it won't be

13 restricted to really out of the way areas. 

14 That's, that's my concern, but I

15 will vote. I think it's a good document. It's

16 time for it. I just have some of the

17 enforcement concerns over the no fly zone. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

19 MR. MOYER: I agree, Joe. I mean, I

20 intend to vote for the document as well. In

21 fact, this document will put our farm out of

22 the organic bee process as well, because we
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1 cannot guarantee that, while we think we have

2 enough nectar sources on the farm to keep them

3 there, within that, your no fly zone, we know

4 that there are materials being used or

5 processes being applied to the land that would

6 disqualify us, so we're, we're going to be out

7 of the organic honeybee business. Yes. But I

8 do think it's a good document. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

10 MR. FOSTER: I'll join the crowd

11 who intends to vote for it. My concern more is

12 about how that forage zone, that, basically

13 four mile radius is going to get inspected and

14 verified as part of the SOP. 

15 I think it's possible that it's

16 just not--oh, sorry, OSP--I think it's

17 possible, I'm just curious as to see how

18 that's going to get implemented with

19 inspectors on the ground.

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

21 MR. ENGELBERT: Again, I agree with

22 all of you. It's definitely a concern. And
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1 there was at least one of us on the Committee

2 that said for that very reason you can't have

3 certified organic honey. 

4 But, I acquiesced and said okay.

5 If we can put these in, and we'll see what

6 public comment is when it goes to ANPR and if

7 it can or can't be done, but this is our best,

8 our best attempt, you know, what we think is

9 the best approach right now. 

10 Because, we know that if it has

11 that organic standard on it, consumers don't

12 want honey that's coming from GMO crops or GMO

13 flowers or GMO lawns. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Further

15 debate? I think it's also worth noting that

16 the nature of the process of rulemaking, which

17 in this case will be extensive, will allow for

18 a tremendous amount of public comment and the

19 program will review all those issues, which

20 receive statements of concern. 

21 So, we ready for the question?

22 Seeing no further debate. It's been moved and
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1 seconded to accept the Livestock Committee's

2 recommendation on apiculture. Those in favor.

3 Start with Steve. 

4 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

10 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

12 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

14 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

16 MS. HALL: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

18 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

20 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

22 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

2 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

4 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

6 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

8 Zero no's, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Oh

9 boy. Conflict of interest. Any conflict of

10 interest on that, this? Any--okay. I think

11 it's worth noting though that we have, what,

12 you said yesterday, two members that raise

13 bees but both of them accept the fact that

14 they won't be able to be organic, according to

15 this regulation. 

16 So, I think that's reasonable,

17 certainly not to call for any recusal. Joe? 

18 MR. DICKSON: I just want to

19 clarify that I am a hobby beekeeper and I have

20 no commercial interest in beekeeping or honey.

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. All right. I

22 think we're covered there, according to, in
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1 the eyes of the Chair we are. All right. Next

2 item, Mr. Chairman. 

3 MR. ENGELBERT: The next item is

4 the clarification of our 205.238C2

5 recommendation, and I'll turn this right back

6 to you, Dan. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. The 238C2

8 recommendation. I can't see whether we're

9 pulling that up--okay, we have, there was a

10 number of public, a few public commenters.

11 Certainly don't want to get in trouble over my

12 use of a description on, on numbers like that.

13 Some, recommending that we add a

14 statement, definitive, that it is relevant to

15 things that are allowed, essentially, in

16 organic standards. I think there may have been

17 some interest in putting that actually into

18 the recommendation. 

19 The Committee decided not to do

20 that, since there's no mention of that in the

21 current listing that we're suggesting it

22 change to. So, we've placed it here at the end
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1 of the discussion section, right before the

2 recommendation. 

3 John, could you please read that

4 for me? 

5 MR. FOSTER: Sure. The addition is,

6 the Livestock Committee intends the practice

7 and enforcement of this recommendation to be

8 consistent with organic regulations 7 CFR 205

9 et sequentiae. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. That's what,

11 that's what you said was proper thing to put

12 in, so. Okay. He says that means it's the

13 whole thing. So. Hope that's not, that's

14 understandable. Is that understandable by the

15 program? 

16 MR. MCEVOY: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, thank you.

18 Okay. I move to, that the Board accept the

19 recommendation of the Livestock Committee on

20 clarification of, amending section 238C2. 

21 MR. ENGELBERT: I'll second. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: That was the only
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1 change. I think we had fairly complete

2 agreement from public comment that this was a

3 good move. 

4 There was some concern on some of

5 the tweaking of language but basically the

6 concern for animal welfare and the advancement

7 of science was welcomed by the community. Any

8 further debate? Ready for the question, ready

9 to vote. John--

10 MR. MCEVOY: Excuse me? 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes, Program? 

12 MR. MCEVOY: We just want you to

13 know that we need to take a look at this.

14 We'll accept your recommendation but we need

15 to take a look at this in relationship to OFPA

16 because this is potentially not in line with

17 OFPA statutory language, so--

18 MR. GIACOMINI: We--we understand

19 that. Yes. 

20 MR. MCEVOY: We'll take a look at

21 that and get back to you. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: And we, and that's
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1 why we, we're only able to proceed with this

2 after going through the transcript and

3 testimony presented to this body from Deputy

4 Secretary Merrigan. At the same meeting as the

5 aquaculture symposium, I believe, I don't

6 remember the exact date on that. I know it's

7 in our recommendation. 

8 So, yes, it's in the discussion--

9 MR. MCEVOY: Point of

10 clarification, she was not the Deputy

11 Secretary at the time she was making those

12 comments, so--

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Correct. 

14 MR. MCEVOY: --there's a different15 -

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes, I apologize. I

17 didn't mean to--yes. Just identifying who she

18 is. 

19 MR. MCEVOY: Different perspective20 -

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. 

22 MR. MCEVOY: --from within the USDA
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1 than outside.

2 MR. GIACOMINI: The more proper

3 representation of that would be person

4 involved with the writing of OFPA would be,

5 yes. Correct. More accurate description of her

6 position. Okay. Vote. Ready to, ready for the

7 question. John? 

8 MR. FOSTER: I was just going to

9 start--

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Oh, he said you had

11 something else to say. 

12 MR. FOSTER: No, I was just--

13 MR. GIACOMINI: It's good to have--

14 MR. FOSTER: I was about to speak

15 when, when Miles wanted something to say, so.

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. John? 

17 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

21 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 
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1 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

3 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

5 MS. HALL: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

7 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

9 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

11 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

13 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

15 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

17 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

19 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

21 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. And

22 again, the Committee, and I believe the Board,
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1 recognized the two step that could be involved

2 in this process. Not two step process, but the

3 two-step. Oh, conflict of interest? I'm sorry.

4 Seeing none. 

5 Okay. We are now -- Holy Toledo --

6 we are now an hour ahead of schedule. I'm

7 sorry--before we move on, the Livestock

8 Committee is ready to go back on formic acid.

9 Okay. Mr. Chairman? 

10 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes, we're ready to

11 go back with, our recommendation under formic

12 acid and to recommend that it be under

13 205.603B. Our research did indicate that mites

14 are a parasite, and the other option was to

15 separate the sucrose octenoate esters out and

16 form another category, G. 

17 But, we decided just to get this

18 moving that the simplest approach was be to

19 use that as a precedent and put this under B,

20 parasites--excuse me--parasiticides. And, as

21 topical treatment, external parasiticide, or

22 local anaesthetic as applicable. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Do we need a

2 second?

3 MS. ELLOR: I will second that. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. It has been

5 moved and seconded to add formic acid on

6 section 603B, with the annotation as described

7 in the motion for honeybees. Mr. Maker of the

8 Motion, further--

9 MR. ENGELBERT: No, I have no

10 further comment. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. I, any

12 further debate? John? 

13 MR. FOSTER: Is this material

14 registered as a parasiticide, or as a

15 miticide, or does it matter? How is it

16 registered, so--

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer, do you

18 remember this is registered? I know we looked

19 into the different things listed on the

20 apiculture recommendations. One of them was

21 not allowed, but I don't remember how this one

22 was listed. 
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1 MR. FOSTER: My point is, I just

2 want to put in the right spot on the list. I'd

3 like to see it there, but I want to make sure

4 that if it's entered as a parasiticide that

5 it's registered for that use. I just, I don't

6 know that it makes a difference but I'd rather

7 clear that up now than six months down the

8 road. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: While she's looking

10 that up, Mr.--Kevin, Chairman of the

11 Livestock, Maker of the Motion, I'm, I'm just

12 concerned with the placement of this--now I'm

13 losing my place here again. 

14 In B, I would, I would wonder

15 whether we wouldn't, that, there, we're very,

16 "B" is very specific, topical treatment and

17 external parasiticide or local anaesthetic

18 with the last is not applicable, but the first

19 two are. 

20 I'm, I'm concerned that we're not

21 going to get in trouble on the classification

22 of whether they are external and might not,
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1 this better be listed in the same category as

2 the parasiticide ivermectin. 

3 MR. ENGELBERT: I think our thought

4 process was, this wasn't actually applied to

5 the bees themselves. It was applied to the

6 hive, and where ivermectin is applied to an

7 animal. 

8 And, so we know that it's

9 external. We know that it's just simply

10 applied to the hive itself. And that is what

11 takes care of the mites and keeps the

12 population under control. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: It is applied

14 though as a medical treatment? 

15 MR. ENGELBERT: No, not a medical

16 treatment to the hive. It's applied as a

17 parasiticide--

18 MR. GIACOMINI: That's right,

19 paraciticides as listed are only a post, post,

20 prescribed by a veterinarian. 

21 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Has to be in
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1 a case. Okay. 

2 MR. MOYER: Trying to answer john's

3 question, the information that we have in

4 front of us just indicates that formic acid is

5 listed in the USDA EPA as a registered

6 pesticide. That's all we were able to find in

7 short term. 

8 MS. ELLOR: To disinfect. 

9 MR. MOYER: To, yes, to disinfect--

10 to disinfest honeybee hives of this mite. So

11 it is used as a miticide. It's not clear. It's

12 not definitive. 

13 MR. FOSTER: I know how important

14 this is, so my concern is again, we put it on

15 our list in the right way, so that there's no

16 trouble down the road with someone saying,

17 "Hey, you listed it as one thing. It's not

18 registered for that," so as long as it's not

19 going to be a problem to list it wherever you,

20 the Committee feels it's appropriate, I'm fine

21 with that. Just want to make sure--

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes, I mean, from
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1 what they've just said, they still think, I

2 would still like A better, but. Did the

3 program have a comment? Emily? 

4 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: The petitioner

5 has applied a label for a product that has a

6 special local need registration only in Hawaii

7 as a pesticide for use in beehives. I mean, I

8 think you can probably just direct us to find

9 the right spot on the list and we'll find the

10 right spot on the list. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: And this would

12 certainly be conditional to what we had just

13 passed on C2. Jay? 

14 MR. FELDMAN: Just a clarification.

15 Are, but this motion is not specific to

16 Hawaii, it's a general approval for this use,

17 right? 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. So it would

19 have to be allowed in other places. 

20 MR. MCEVOY: Well, it's only

21 allowed where EPA allows it to be used, so if

22 it's not registered for use in a particular
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1 state, then it can't be used in that state. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Emily, can

3 you relay what that comment was? 

4 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, they said it's

5 coming for registration in other states. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. That's our

7 latest information. Okay. With the condition

8 that the program will find the right place to

9 put it, is the Committee comfortable

10 proceeding with the motion as stated? 

11 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. The listing

13 of formic acid on 603B with the annotation as

14 stated in the motion for honeybees. Any

15 further debate? Ready for the question. Jay?

16 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

18 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

20 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

22 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

2 MS. HALL: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

4 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

6 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

8 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

10 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

12 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

14 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

16 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

18 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

20 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion for listing

21 passes. Okay. We are now still way ahead of

22 schedule. Is the--Kevin?
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1 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes, to wrap up the

2 Livestock Committee's presentation, I again

3 want to thank all of the Committee members,

4 not just today but throughout my term on the

5 Board. 

6 Every member's participated a

7 great deal. We've accomplished a great deal of

8 work in this length of time, and I was very

9 proud to be a part of it. 

10 And on behalf of all the Livestock

11 Committees, we are willingly to accept your

12 praise, accolades, and thanks for getting us

13 nearly an hour ahead of schedule. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. I -- the

15 Chair is very aware of, number one, the

16 appreciation of being ahead of schedule. But

17 also the work and sometimes the strategic time

18 planning that goes into structuring the things

19 that need to be worked on the night before and

20 the morning of the final day for voting. So,

21 the Chair is going to offer the Chairman of

22 the Handling Committee, which goes next,
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1 whether they would like a short break to pull

2 all their issues together before they proceed.

3 MR. DEMURI: We are ready, I

4 believe. So we, we're in favor of proceeding.

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, go ahead. 

6 MR. DEMURI: All right. By way of

7 preview, I'll let you know what you're going

8 to be voting on here. You saw the

9 recommendations yesterday, have a couple of

10 changes that the people who were the leads on

11 will explain to you as we get to their items.

12 But first, we have four petition

13 materials to go through. We have a

14 reaffirmation on the last meeting's sunset

15 materials, plus one that we pulled out of

16 that, overall reaffirmation. Then we have a

17 colors annotation recommendation. 

18 And then we get into the sunset

19 2012 recommendations for this meeting, and I

20 did notice that there was a mistake on the

21 agenda. We pulled out annatto extract out of

22 the colors sunset recommendation. Made that a
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1 separate recommendation. 

2 So, the agenda's not correct, but

3 the voting sheet is. So, probably not a big

4 deal. But, we'll get to that later on. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: We'll proceed as it

6 was presented by the Committee two days ago,

7 so, that's, that's great. 

8 MR. DEMURI: So, with that, I'd

9 like to pass it on to Joe to present the yeast

10 petition to move from 605 to 606. 

11 MR. SMILLIE: Right, that was the

12 petition. During Committee discussion, as

13 we've presented, that created some problems.

14 A few problems. And we basically responded to

15 the petitioner by leaving it on 605 (s) and

16 having -- creating a new annotation. 

17 Part of the old annotation, the,

18 the change that is highlighted in yellow up

19 there, part of the old annotation had, for

20 smoke yeast, non-synthetic smoke flavoring

21 process must be documented. 

22 Although many of use felt that
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1 that would be covered under other parts of the

2 regulation, mainly flavors, we decided to err

3 on the side of caution and re-add that to our

4 new annotation, which now, the new annotation

5 for yeast now reads yeast, when used as a food

6 fermentation agent, or supplement, yeast must

7 be organic if it's end use is for human

8 consumption. 

9 Non-organic yeast may be used when

10 equivalent organic yeast is not commercially

11 available. Growth on petrochemical substrate

12 and sulfite waste liquor is prohibited, and

13 for smoked yeast, non-synthetic smoke

14 flavoring process must be documented. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Question. Is it the

16 intention -- is it the intention of the

17 Committee to formally vote on the petition, or

18 just your version? 

19 MR. SMILLIE: No, our intention is

20 to vote on the document we're presenting. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. 

22 MR. SMILLIE: We've discussed this
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1 with the petitioner and they have no objection

2 to that. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Just to

4 clarify. 

5 MR. SMILLIE: The other change, so,

6 that we could be very clear, at the end,

7 because there is some -- in the previous

8 annotation, some specific types of yeast were

9 listed and there was some concern that those

10 wouldn't be covered. 

11 We believe that it is the intent

12 of the Handling Committee that this, that this

13 recommendation apply to all yeast products

14 used in ingredients in organic food products,

15 including but not limited to autosalate,

16 bakers, brewers, nutritional, and smoke as

17 listed in the previous recommendation. 

18 We believe our annotation is a

19 much broader annotation. It covers all sorts

20 of uses, and not simply the uses that were

21 first listed in the original annotation. So

22 those are the two changes. No discussion? 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: No. Move to make

2 the motion to accept. 

3 MR. SMILLIE: Yes, Mr. Chair. I was

4 just about to do that. I'd like to move that

5 the Committee recommendation to re-list -- to

6 list yeast on 605A with a new annotation, to

7 the list yeast on 605A, with a new annotation.

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Read the annotation

9 for the record, please, and the motion. 

10 MR. SMILLIE: Yeast, when used as a

11 food -- yeast, when used as food, a

12 fermentation agent, or supplement, yeast must

13 be organic if it's end use is for human

14 consumption. Non-organic yeast may be used

15 when equivalent organic yeast is not

16 commercially available. 

17 Growth on petrochemical substrate

18 and sulfite waste liquor is prohibited. For

19 smoked yeast, non-synthetic smoke flavoring

20 process must be documented. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Second?

22 Steve. Okay. It's been moved and seconded, to
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1 change the annotation on yeast as was stated

2 in the motion. Further debate? Joe? Further

3 debate?

4 MR. SMILLIE: Program? 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Program. 

6 MR. NEAL: We do have one question.

7 In the first line of the annotation, it says,

8 when used as food, a fermentation agent, or

9 supplement, yeast must be organic. A

10 clarification, well, got a question of

11 clarification, what does supplement mean, or

12 as a supplement, supplement to what? 

13 MR. SMILLIE: In industry terms,

14 there's a term called a supplement, a food

15 supplement. It means you don't sort of sit

16 down and cut it with a knife and fork, it

17 comes as a capsule or as a pill and generally,

18 in industry, that's termed a supplement. 

19 It's not food, it's a thing that

20 you supplement your diet with. No, you don't

21 like that term? There's wagging of heads. Yes?

22 Well, we could add that word, if it would
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1 please the program. 

2 MR. NEAL: Thank you for the

3 clarification. 

4 MR. SMILLIE: Does that suit your

5 purposes? 

6 MR. MCEVOY: Dietary supplements

7 have some interesting cross-agency

8 authorities. FDA is involved in dietary, the

9 regulation of dietary supplements. We regulate

10 food and agricultural products, so we have

11 some -- it potentially presents some

12 complications for the program, and we'll

13 evaluate this and get back to you. 

14 MR. SMILLIE: We really don't want

15 to delay this any longer, it's been quite a

16 few years. So, would it please the program for

17 us to change that to either dietary

18 supplements, or eliminate the word

19 supplements? 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Do we need, do we

21 need the qualifiers before the statement of

22 use for human consumption? Do we need the food
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1 fermentation agent or supplement? 

2 MR. MCEVOY: We would request that

3 you take the supplement out of that statement.

4 When used as a food, a fermentation agent.

5 Delete "or supplement". It'll make our ability

6 to implement this possible. 

7 MR. SMILLIE: Having concurred with

8 the petitioner and the Handling Committee, we

9 will now move to delete "or supplements". 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: We need a Board

11 member to make that as a changed -- an

12 amendment to the motion, which can be accepted

13 by the maker of the motion as a friendly

14 Amendment. 

15 MR. DEMURI: Okay, I'll give it a

16 shot. I would like to move that we change the

17 recommendation to read --

18 MR. GIACOMINI: No, we just need to

19 state the amendment that you want to make,

20 drop "or supplement". 

21 MR. DEMURI: Okay. I would like to

22 move that we drop the word supplement from the
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1 recommendation. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: "Or supplement". 

3 MR. DEMURI: "Or supplement". 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? Nobody

5 wants to second that? 

6 MR. FOSTER: I will second that.

7 This is John. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: I can't second as

9 the Chair. Okay. Once we get it straight. Is

10 that accepted as a friendly amendment by the

11 maker of the motion? 

12 MR. SMILLIE: It is. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? You made it.

14 You accept it, obviously. 

15 MR. DEMURI: I do. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. So. The

17 motion now reads as stated up there, yeast,

18 when used as food or fermentation agent, yeast

19 must be organic if it's end use is for human

20 consumption. Non-organic yeast -- could

21 somebody else read that? I can't read that,

22 and talk in the microphone at the same time.
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1 MR. SMILLIE: Yeast, when used as a

2 food or a fermentation agent, yeast must be

3 organic. If it's end use is for human

4 consumption. Non-organic yeast may be used

5 when equivalent organic yeast is not

6 commercially available. Growth on

7 petrochemical substrate and sulfite waste

8 liquor is prohibited. For smoked yeast, non9 synthetic smoke flavoring process must be

10 documented. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Program is still

12 under consultation on this. Joe? 

13 MR. SMILLIE: I don't know if I

14 want to turn them out. 

15 MR. MCEVOY: Sorry, we didn't get -

16 - bring this up earlier, but what is sulfite

17 waste liquor? 

18 MR. SMILLIE: I will let Tina

19 answer it, technically, but we adopted that

20 from the original Board recommendation on

21 yeast. That's where it came from. We wanted to

22 honor the work of the previous Board. 
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1 But, the technical explanation is

2 --

3 MS. ELLOR: It's a byproduct of the

4 sulfite, magnesium sulfite paper mill, paper

5 making process. 

6 MR. SMILLIE: Nasty stuff. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Question from the

8 Chair, for the Committee. Was that part of the

9 annotation change fully reviewed within

10 Committee? 

11 MR. SMILLIE: Define fully. I mean,

12 we looked at it--

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Enough to satisfy

14 600 (a). 

15 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. Yes, it was, Mr.

16 Chair. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Chairman of the

18 Handling Committee concur on that? 

19 MR. DEMURI: That would be yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. We are

21 held in suspension as Arthur continues to

22 point at the screen. Any further debate? Jeff?
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1 MR. MOYER: Again, I just wanted to

2 go on record as I did the other day to thank

3 Joe and the rest of the Handling Committee

4 for, for really working so hard on this for so

5 long and coming up with what I think is a very

6 masterful compromise that gets us off of the

7 spot where we were and moves us forward. And,

8 I appreciate that work, Joe. 

9 MR. SMILLIE: Well, and we

10 appreciated the, you know, being able to work

11 especially with Dan and the Livestock

12 Committee. I mean, that's the kind of

13 interagency cooperation that we'd like to see

14 emulated in the Federal Government. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate or

16 comment from the Program? Miles? 

17 MR. NEAL: We're happy at this

18 point.

19 MR. GIACOMINI: And we hope that

20 will continue into the day. Okay, thank you.

21 Further, any further comment? 

22 MR. DEMURI: Conflict. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Conflicts. Any

2 conflicts on yeast? 

3 MR. DEMURI: My company, my

4 employer purchases organic yeast from the

5 petitioner and we use it in some of our

6 products. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: What influences --

8 how much of that influence does that have on

9 your, your part of the department that you're

10 in? 

11 MR. DEMURI: I recommend suppliers

12 and ingredients, formulas, the whole shebang.

13 MR. GIACOMINI: And would you like

14 to recuse yourself from this--

15 MR. DEMURI: I think I probably

16 should on this one, yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Any further

18 conflict? Katrina? 

19 MS. HEINZE: I'm going to do my

20 standard -- I work for a company that uses a

21 wide variety of organic ingredients. I am not

22 involved in the R&D process. But, clearly, we
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1 may or may not use any of the ingredients that

2 the Handling Committee reviews. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Are you -- is

4 your part of the Division involved with the

5 procuring of organic yeast? What would be

6 needing to be organic yeast? 

7 MS. HEINZE: Only in so far as to

8 approving suppliers from a food safety

9 perspective. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. So, from food

11 safety. Do you feel you need to recuse

12 yourself from this vote? 

13 MS. HEINZE: I don't, but I want to

14 make sure that the rest of the Board has a

15 chance to weigh in. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. The chair

17 does not see that as a significant conflict.

18 Any objection to the Board's -- the Chair's

19 decision from other members of the Board?

20 Okay. We will put you down as potential

21 conflict. 

22 Okay. All right. Ready for the
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1 question. And, just so happens, look where we

2 start. Katrina? 

3 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

5 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

7 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

9 MS. HALL: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff. 

11 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina. 

13 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy. 

15 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie. 

17 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson. 

19 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry. 

21 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve recuses.
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1 John?

2 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay. 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

6 Zero no, thirteen yes, one recuse. Motion

7 passes. I don't know how the loud cheering

8 will show up in the transcripts, but let's

9 just say, pandemonium has broke out in the

10 gallery. 

11 All right. Let's see if anyone can

12 get nearly as excited about pectin. Mr.

13 Chairman? 

14 MR. DEMURI: I thought maybe the

15 Giants won again already. Okay, the next one

16 on the docket is for pectin, and Joe will

17 handle that one as well. 

18 MR. SMILLIE: If it pleases the

19 Chair and the Committee, we'd like to handle

20 the pectin one in the same manner that we did

21 -- in a sense, the petition was to move low22 methoxy pectin from 605 to 606. During our
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1 deliberations and research on the subject, we

2 determined that we wanted to make three

3 distinct recommendations on the whole pectin

4 issue. 

5 Which are as follows -- oh --

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Go ahead, read the

7 three. 

8 MR. SMILLIE: Okay. The three

9 distinct recommendations, which resulted from

10 our response to petitioner, was agreed upon by

11 the petitioner. They had no problem with us

12 changing their original petition to the

13 following three recommendations. 

14 We're recommending that pectin

15 low-methoxy be removed from listing on 205.605

16 (b). We're recommending that pectin high17 methoxy be listing from listing on 205.606.

18 And we are recommending that pectin, non19 amidated forms only, be added to 205.606. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. State that in

21 a motion, please. 

22 MR. SMILLIE: I move that the NOSB
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1 accept the recommendations of the Committee.

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? 

3 MR. DEMURI: Second. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve is back in

5 mode as Mr. Second, that's great. Okay. I

6 didn't get -- it is very appropriate to

7 maintain these as a block as any part of it

8 would break down the entire intent of the

9 Committee. 

10 Oh. Mr. Maker of the Motion, any

11 further debate? 

12 MS. HEINZE: I may have missed

13 something, but I don't remember voting on

14 classification of pectin. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: I'm sorry? 

16 MR. SMILLIE: I don't believe, I

17 don't believe we need to vote on that, because

18 they've already been classified. But now we

19 are reclassifying, and that's your point. I

20 don't know if I want to do that. 

21 MS. HEINZE: It was part of our

22 Committee recommendation. The Committee took
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1 two votes. 

2 MR. SMILLIE: As always, you are

3 correct. So, we need to do this in two votes.

4 Can we -- oh boy. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Withdraw your

6 motion, and remake the motion to -- for the

7 classification of the material. You withdraw

8 -- are you withdrawing --MR. SMILLIE:Yes, yes.

9 I withdraw the motion, and I, I need to --

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Motion is

11 withdrawn. Now, to make a new motion for the

12 classification of pectin, for a vote on the

13 classification of pectin. 

14 MR. SMILLIE: I'd like to move that

15 pectin low-methoxy be classified as non16 synthetic. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: What is, what is

18 our -- clarification. 

19 MR. SMILLIE: Do you want me to

20 explain? 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: No, I want to ask a

22 question. Madame Materials Chair, can you
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1 please summarize for us what our current

2 listings on pectin are, just so we have those.

3 MS. HEINZE: Today, and I'm going

4 to look at Joe to make sure I get it right, we

5 have pectin low-methoxy on 205.605B, and

6 pectin high-methoxy on 205.606. So high7 methoxy has already been classified --

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Has already been

9 classified. 

10 MS. HEINZE: -- so we need to

11 reclassify, we need to come to agreement on

12 the classification on non -- low-methoxy, non13 amidated, which is what the Committee voted

14 on, because it is the Committee's intention to

15 list pectin non-amidated on 205.606. So, high16 methoxy, non-amidated is already on that list.

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Would it be, would

18 it be -- okay, would it be appropriate, in

19 your opinion, to vote for, to have a motion

20 for a classification pectin and then a vote on

21 the classification of pectin non-amidated? 

22 MS. HEINZE: No and yes. It might
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1 be appropriate to vote on the classification

2 of pectin non-amidated, and then I suppose we

3 could have a second on pectin amidated. That

4 would split pectin into the two groups. I

5 don't entirely see the purpose of doing the

6 amidated, since that's not the material under

7 consideration --

8 MR. GIACOMINI: I'm sorry, I meant

9 non-amidated, yes. 

10 MS. HEINZE: Right. I guess I don't

11 entirely see the purpose of voting, voting on

12 the amidated since that's not the intention of

13 this petition. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Okay. So.

15 MR. SMILLIE: I move that pectin

16 non-amidated be ruled as non-synthetic. And

17 that's the recommendation of this Committee,

18 that pectin non-amidated be classified as non19 synthetic on 606. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Steve, please

21 second this because I'm running out of space.

22 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. So,

2 classification. 

3 MR. MCEVOY: Point of

4 clarification. Aren't you trying to get this

5 on 606? You want to classify it as an

6 agricultural substance?

7 MR. SMILLIE: The first vote is

8 whether it's synthetic or not. 

9 MS. HEINZE: I do believe the

10 Committee did this right, so I think if we

11 look at the Committee recommendation, we'll

12 see that we're okay. The Committee moved that

13 pectin low-methoxy non-amidated is non14 synthetic agricultural. 

15 So, if we make that one motion and

16 vote on it, we should be in good shape. And

17 that, I believe, would address the Program's

18 question. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. I'm out of

20 space.

21 MR. SMILLIE: Withdraw the motion.

22 Well, that's your problem, Mr. Chair. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: I just want you to

2 make this motion so that we can have a record

3 that look --

4 MR. SMILLIE: We're, we're working

5 on it. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, go ahead. 

7 MR. SMILLIE: Okay. I move that

8 pectin, non-amidated, be classified as non9 synthetic and agricultural. 

10 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? Mic? 

12 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Classify

14 -- to classify pectin non-amidated as non15 synthetic, agricultural. Mr. Maker of the

16 Motion, any further debate? Joe? Any other

17 comments? 

18 MR. SMILLIE: No. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate from

20 the Committee, from the Board? Ready for the

21 question? Okay. Those in favor of classifying

22 pectin non-amidated as non-synthetic
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1 agricultural, say aye. As we move through. Is

2 that, did I get that correct? Yes, as was

3 stated in the motion. Okay. Wendy? 

4 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Oh, conflict of

6 interest? Conflict of interest on pectin?

7 Okay. Joe, did you have something else that

8 was going to -- 

9 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. Yes. I do. I'd

10 like to recognize the Program. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: I would like to

12 recognize the Program. 

13 MR. SMILLIE: Oh, you, then. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Program. 

15 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, just a point of

16 clarification in terms of what's written there

17 on the first motion you -- the motion is about

18 pectin, low-methoxy non-amidated, and then in

19 your second motion, you only refer to it as

20 non-amidated. Is that going to cause you a

21 problem? 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 
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1 MS. HEINZE: I don't believe so.

2 The second motion refers to the current

3 listing, which is unclear on amidation. So we

4 tried to be clear in our second, the second

5 motion what exactly we needed to happen to the

6 National List. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: The Committee felt

8 that the classification between low- and high9 was not substantive, and are just re-asking --

10 being formal in their clarification on the

11 classification of the non-amidated forms. 

12 MR. SMILLIE: And reminding

13 everyone that this is a petition and not

14 sunset. The sunset vote will be a distinctly

15 different vote. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. For the

17 classification of pectin, non-amidated, as

18 non-synthetic agricultural. Wendy? 

19 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

21 MR. ENGELBERT: No. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 
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1 MS. HALL: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

3 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

5 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

7 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

9 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

11 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

13 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

15 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

17 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

21 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.
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1 One no, thirteen yes. Motion pass. So, that's

2 for the classification of this substance. Joe,

3 would you now proceed with recommendation for

4 listing? 

5 MR. SMILLIE: At the pleasure of

6 the Chair and the Board, I'd like to move all

7 three recommendations as one motion. So I move

8 that pectin, low-methoxy be removed from

9 listing on 205.605B, pectin high-methoxy be

10 removed from listing on 205.606, and pectin

11 non-amidated forms only be added to 205.606.

12 MS. MIEDEMA: Second. 

13 MR. DEMURI: I'll second.

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy won. Okay.

15 It's been moved and seconded that those -- as

16 described in the motion -- I can't, I can't

17 see what we're doing here. But that's fine. It

18 won't show up in the transcript why I'm so

19 discombobulated, but I can't see the screen

20 from where I am. 

21 So, Mr. Maker of the Motion,

22 further -- okay. Any other comments, questions
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1 from the -- okay. I would just like to ask the

2 Committee, I certainly understand and I agree

3 with the process of combining these into one

4 motion. I would just as the Committee to

5 clarify their intention for the Program if one

6 of the steps along the way breaks down, what

7 their intention for the Program would be to

8 continue with the other steps, so that the

9 Program is clear on how we're -- how to

10 proceed. 

11 MR. SMILLIE: Well, we believe

12 we're clear, but we also don't feel that it's,

13 if there is a breakdown, that there will be a

14 problem with industry because we intend to

15 vote later on the sunsetting to re-list

16 everything as is. 

17 So, if there does -- if there is a

18 problem, you know, the jam makers will still

19 have access to what they've currently using,

20 doesn't constitute a threat to the industry.

21 So, we don't feel that it's a dangerous

22 recommendation in that sense, because it's a
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1 petition response and not a sunset. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: But, specifically,

3 if one of the three items breaks down in

4 rulemaking, is it the recommendation of the

5 Committee for the Program to proceed with the

6 other two? 

7 MR. SMILLIE: Well, I guess that

8 depends on what breaks down, but I'd rather

9 cross that bridge when we come to it rather

10 than debate it now. I mean, if it's a problem,

11 they'll let us know and we'll deal with it. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Is that --

13 Program? Miles? 

14 MR. MCEVOY: We don't see a problem

15 with doing this all as one docket, so --

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. 

17 MR. MCEVOY: -- so, I don't foresee

18 any problems here. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Great. Just

20 so we were all clear on what would happen if

21 we only can move with two legs of the stool.

22 Okay. I believe we already asked for conflict
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1 on pectin. Any further debate on this? Ready

2 for the question. Kevin? 

3 MR. ENGELBERT: Abstain. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

5 MS. HALL: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

7 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

9 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

11 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

13 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

15 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? Barry, I'm

17 sorry. Barry. 

18 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Was that a yes,

20 Barry? I missed you. 

21 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: I'm sorry. Steve? 
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1 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

3 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

5 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

7 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

9 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Vote is -- Chair,

11 yes. I know what I'm going to do, why do I

12 need to tell you? Vote is zero no, thirteen

13 yes, and one abstain. The abstain satisfies

14 the quorum, which brings us to thirteen

15 voting, which requires nine. Motion passes.

16 Next substance, Mr. Chairman. 

17 MR. DEMURI: Thank you. And,

18 Katrina, thank you for that catch. That was

19 important. Okay. The next petition material is

20 glucosamine hydrochloride, to list, and Tracy

21 will take us through that one. 

22 MS. MIEDEMA: I would like to move
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1 that we withdraw any recommendation on this

2 material. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Nobody

4 second. So it's the decision of the material

5 -- of the Handling Committee to just withdraw

6 this item? Okay. That's the prerogative of the

7 Handling Committee on these issues, and we

8 don't need a motion and a vote to proceed.

9 Okay. Next item, Mr. Chairman. 

10 MR. DEMURI: Thank you, Tracy. The

11 last petition material is hops, petition to

12 remove. Joe Smillie again. 

13 MR. SMILLIE: It gives me great

14 pleasure Mr. Chair of the Board, to say that

15 in this case, we are agreeing with the

16 petition. The petition actually never had a

17 date, it just asked for a removal. So, we're

18 responding in the affirmative and have set a

19 time for it's removal of hops, humulus

lupulus, from 606 on January 1st 20 , 2013. 

21 Obviously, there was a -- no, I'm

22 just giving the background right now. So,
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1 that's the background. We had a full

2 discussion of it. The petitioner agreed with

3 the compromise and went on record on

4 regulations.gov in agreeing with it. 

5 They feel that it creates an

6 orderly transition and although some brewers

7 and possibly some hop growers were

8 disappointed in the delay -- I'd like to move

9 that we remove hops from 205.606 as of January

1st 10 , 2013. 

11 MS. HALL: Second. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: That was Jennifer.

13 Okay --

14 MR. SMILLIE: With agreement from

15 the petitioner and a full, vigorous debate.

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff, can I restate

17 that motion as Chair? Been moved and seconded

18 to -- but I can't read the darn thing -- to

remove hops from 606 on January 1 st 19 , 2013.

20 Okay. Maker of the Motion, do you have

21 additional debate? 

22 MR. SMILLIE: No. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Further

2 comments or debate on this item? I think this

3 is technically an annotation change, but I

4 don't think the structure of the motion

5 invalidates that at all. 

6 Personally, I had great concern

7 over the date that was applied here, but the

8 comments that we had from the brewer yesterday

9 more than satisfied my understanding why this

10 seems to be in the middle of a crop year. 

11 So, I'm, I'm very comfortable with

12 it as well. Further debate? Conflict of

13 interest on hops? Drinking beer does not

14 constitute enough to recuse yourself. Seeing

15 none. Jennifer? 

16 MS. HALL: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

18 MR. MOYER: Happily, yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

20 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

22 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

2 MR. SMILLIE: Happily, yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

4 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

6 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

8 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

10 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

12 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

14 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

16 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: For the record,

18 that was yes, in case the transcript --

19 recorder did not pick that up. Kevin? 

20 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

22 Zero no, fourteen yes, motion passes. 
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1 MS. HALL: Did we do conflict of

2 interest? 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes, and I said

4 drinking beer did not -- was not going to

5 constitute that. Okay. Next item, Mr.

6 Chairman. 

7 MR. DEMURI: Thank you. The next

8 group of items is a reaffirmation of prior

9 sunset 2012 recommendations on 205.605 (a),

10 205.605 (b), and 205.606. And we did have one

11 substance that we pulled out that will not be

12 part of this overall recommendation. 

13 Let me read through all the items

14 that we are reaffirming right now. For 605

15 (a), which are non-synthetics allowed, we have

16 acids, alginic, citric produced from microbial

17 fermentation of carbohydrate substances, and

18 lactic. 

19 Bentonite, calcium carbonate,

20 calcium chloride, carrageenan, dairy cultures,

21 diatomaceous earth, food filtering aid only.

22 Kaolin, nitrogen, oil-free grades, oxygen,
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1 oil-free grades, pearlite for use only as a

2 filter aid in food processing, potassium

3 chloride, sodium bicarbonate, sodium

4 carbonate, and waxes, non-synthetic, carnauba

5 wax and wood resin. 

6 For 205.605 (b), which are allowed

7 synthetics: calcium phosphates, monobasic,

8 dibasic, and tribasic. Carbon dioxide,

9 ethylene allowed for post-harvest ripening of

10 tropical fruit and degreening of citrus.

11 Glycerine, produced by hydrolysis of fats and

12 oils. 

13 Hydrogen peroxide, magnesium

14 carbonate for use only in agricultural

15 products labeled "made with organic", and in

16 parentheses, specified ingredients or food

17 groups. Prohibited in agricultural products

18 labeled organic. 

19 Magnesium chloride, derived from

20 seawater. Magnesium stearate, for use only in

21 agricultural products labeled "made with

22 organic". Again, specified ingredients or food
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1 groups. Prohibited in agricultural products

2 labeled organic. 

3 Ozone, potassium, acid tartrate,

4 potassium carbonate, potassium citrate,

5 potassium hydroxide prohibited for use in

6 light peeling of fruits and vegetables, except

7 when used for peeling peaches during

8 individually quick frozen or IQF production

9 processes. 

10 Potassium phosphate for use only

11 in agricultural products labeled "made with

12 organic", specified ingredients for food

13 groups prohibited in agricultural products

14 labeled organic. Xanthum gum, alginates,

15 ammonium bicarbonate for use only as a

16 leavening agent, ammonium carbonate for use

17 only as a leavening agent, ascorbic acid,

18 calcium citrate and calcium hydroxide. 

19 And the last group are the 205.606

20 items being reaffirmed from last meeting.

21 Casings from processed intestines, celery

22 powder, chia, salvia hispanica, dillweed oil,
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1 fish oil stabilized with organic ingredients

2 or only with ingredients on the National List

3 205.605 and 205.606. 

4 Galangal frozen, gelatin, gums

5 water extracted only. Arabic, guar, locust

6 bean, and carob bean. And, konjac flower.

7 Lemongrass, frozen. Orange shellac,

8 unbleached. Pepper, chipotle pepper. Kelp for

9 use only as a thickener and dietary

10 supplement. Sweet potato starch for bean

11 thread production only. Turkish bay leaves and

12 wakame seaweed. Undaria pinnatifida. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Do we have a

14 second?

15 MR. FOSTER: I will second that. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. It has been

17 moved and seconded with the indulgence of the

18 industry, the Board, the guy who's going to

19 have to write the transcript to this, the

20 chair will refer to this as the motion to

21 reaffirm the April, 2010 sunset 2012

22 recommendation with, without glycerides --
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1 except for glycerides. 

2 Okay, so, you made a motion and

3 that would go -- will go on for three pages.

4 But we will refer to it as reaffirmation

5 except for glycerides for 605 (a)(b) and 606.

6 Do you have any further debate on this issue?

7 MR. DEMURI: No, I do not. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Any further debate

9 from the Board? Are we ready for the question?

10 Jeff? 

11 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Any conflict of

13 interest on this? Just a reaffirmation of the

14 previous vote. Okay. Tina? 

15 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

17 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

19 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

21 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 
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1 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

3 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

5 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

9 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

11 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

13 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

15 MS. HALL: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

17 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion to reaffirm 605

18 (a), 605 (b), 606 vote from April except for

19 glycerides, mono- and di- passes. Mr.

20 Chairman? 

21 MR. DEMURI: Thank you. As you

22 heard, we did have one substance that we
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1 pulled out of that reaffirmation due to some

2 late -- not late, but public comment after our

3 last meeting, before the deadline. So, John is

4 going to present our recommendation to you. 

5 MR. FOSTER: Thank you, Steve. So

6 the one we pulled out from the reaffirmation

7 was glycerides, this is mono- and di- --

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Just, just start

9 with the motion, please. 

10 MR. FOSTER: Sorry. The Committee's

11 recommendation is to renew the following

12 substance. This would be on 205.606 (b).

13 Glycerides, open parentheses, mono- and di-,

14 close parentheses, for use only in drum drying

15 of food. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: That's 5 (b),

17 right? I believe you said 6 (b). That's 5 (b),

18 correct? 5 (b). 

19 MR. FOSTER: Sorry. I mean to say

20 605 (b). 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: So you move that we

22 accept the recommendation to re-list. As
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1 noted. Second? 

2 MS. ELLOR: I will second. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina seconds. Maker

4 of the Motion, any further debate on this?

5 Whose mic is on? 

6 MR. FOSTER: There was a -- we did

7 discuss the day before yesterday that there

8 was additional comment that had come in, and

9 we got together as a group and decided that it

10 didn't warrant a reconsideration at this time.

11 We expect that a petition to

12 remove glycerides will come in pretty soon.

13 But at this time we're going to keep our

14 recommendation the way it's written up there.

15 MR. GIACOMINI: To re-list, to

16 reaffirm the listing. Jay? 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Would it be

18 appropriate to ask for a little more

19 explanation as to why -- I mean, the basis of

20 the petition is that there is an organic

21 alternative and it sounds like that

22 information was not available at the time the
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1 Committee -- or, it may have been, but the

2 Committee didn't consider that information. 

3 I may be misrepresenting this, I

4 need help here. And that, I had suggested that

5 perhaps a Committee could take that

6 information back and bring it back to the

7 spring meeting. Was that considered? 

8 MR. FOSTER: There is no petition

9 to remove glycerides at this time. The

10 petition I think you're referring to is to

11 remove silicon dioxide. Is that --

12 MR. FELDMAN: That, that's true. I

13 mean, it's the same, it's a rice product, I

14 guess. I guess the question for me is whether

15 information from that petition and related

16 products can be gleaned for purposes of

17 informing this decision. 

18 MR. FOSTER: Got you. No, I'm

19 sorry, I wasn't understanding. There is some

20 overlap, but in the comment, in the various

21 comments that have been provided in this last

22 comment period for both silicon dioxide and
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1 glycerides, it was unclear at least to the

2 point that seemed to justify reconsideration,

3 that there was enough information to make a

4 decision on glycerides based on the petition

5 to remove silicon dioxide. 

6 It just seemed not quite enough.

7 But it was considered, and we would certainly

8 expect to reconsider it more fully -- again,

9 I expect a petition to remove glycerides will

10 come in in the spring, with, with a TR at that

11 point. 

12 MR. FELDMAN: So, just to -- one

13 more question. That included a consideration

14 of Richter's comments, I assume? 

15 MR. FOSTER: It did. And given the

16 level of scrutiny that we're appropriately

17 paying to these materials, we felt like now

18 there's enough information from the -- from

19 industry, from manufacturers, from users, and

20 manufacturers of alternatives that with the TR

21 we'd be able to make a well-informed decision,

22 and I expect that'll be on the work plan for
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1 next year. 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Thanks. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

4 Seeing none, ready for the question? Tina? Oh,

5 on the motion to reconsider -- I mean, to

6 reaffirm -- we say reconsider, on the agenda,

7 we need to change that. To reaffirm the April

8 2010 vote on sunset 2012 re-listing of

9 glycerides, mono- and di-. Tina? 

10 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

12 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

14 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

16 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

18 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

20 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

22 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

4 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

6 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

8 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

10 MS. HALL: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

12 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

14 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. We are

15 almost approaching the time of our next

16 scheduled break, but as it is on the agenda,

17 I believe we can get one more item through. 

18 MR. DEMURI: Okay, our next item is

19 a colors annotation recommendation. It was

20 described to you two days ago. Katrina, if

21 you'll present that, please. 

22 MS. HEINZE: Yes, thank you. I
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1 will, as I believe I'm supposed to, start with

2 a motion and then I'll explain our rationale.

3 I move that the annotation for

4 colors derived from agricultural products be

5 changed and that the new listing on 205.606

6 (b), colors derived from agricultural products

7 must not be produced using synthetic solvents

8 and carrier systems or any artificial

9 preservative. 

10 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: John, I'm going to

12 ask you to be my man over there. It's been

13 moved and seconded to --

14 MR. FOSTER: Handling Committee

15 recommends that the annotation for colors

16 derived from agricultural products be changed

17 and that the new listing on section 205.606

18 (b), colors derived from agricultural products

19 must not be produced using synthetic solvents

20 and carrier systems or any artificial

21 preservative. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Thank you.
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1 Maker of the Motion, further debate? 

2 MS. HEINZE: Just again, to recap,

3 when these materials were originally listed,

4 there was a lot of confusion about the

5 annotation. The materials we reviewed were not

6 produced using synthetic solvents, but it's

7 come to our attention that some clarity on the

8 topic would be useful. 

9 So, we're doing this to provide

10 some clarity on the topic. And all public

11 comment we've received has support this

12 change. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Further

14 debate? Comment? Yes, just, when this was --

15 when we voted on all of these in `07, we were

16 at ground zero. We did not have the existing

17 listings, we did not even have the category.

18 The debate of whether they're

19 water extracted, solvent extracted, oil

20 extracted, was various debates. We now have

21 the opportunity to clarify the category rather

22 than have to individually deal with each
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1 substance. I think that's a great improvement

2 in the listing, and for clarity on the

3 subject. 

4 So, I thank you for doing this.

5 Further debate? Ready for the question? Tracy?

6 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

8 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

10 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

12 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

14 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

16 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

20 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

22 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

2 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

4 MS. HALL: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

6 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

8 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

10 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. We're

11 way ahead of schedule, but we are at the time

12 for a planned break. Let's do that now, and

13 shoot for 11:15. Katrina, do you -- no. Okay,

14 so, fifteen minutes. 

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 11:02 a.m. and

17 returned at 11:25 a.m.) 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: All right, we will

19 come back into session. We had the

20 opportunity, since we are so far ahead of

21 schedule to take a little bit of an extended

22 break, and have a lot of conferencing on some
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1 potential strategic issues. 

2 But it's time now to proceed with

3 our agenda. All the members have refilled

4 their glasses and we should be ready to go. So

5 we are back to the handling Committee

6 chairperson Steve DeMuri to continue with

7 their items. 

8 MR. DEMURI: Thank you, Dan. And

9 now we're moving into our sunset 2012

10 recommendations. The first three are for

11 205.605A, and the first one of those happens

12 to be Flavors, which was presented to the

13 Board day before yesterday. 

14 So, I would like to move that the

15 Board vote for the re-listing of Flavors to

16 the National list 205.605A, non-synthetic

17 sources only, and must not be produced using

18 synthetic solvents and carrier systems or any

19 artificial preservative. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? 

21 MS. ELLOR: I'll second. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Moved and seconded
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1 to re-list Flavors on 605A for sunset 2012.

2 Maker of the Motion, do you have any further

3 debate?

4 MR. DEMURI: Just a couple of

5 comments. I want everybody to remember that we

6 realize as a Committee that there's a lot of

7 flavor discussions that we've had over the

8 last few days. This is just for sunset. 

9 We intend to take up the flavor

10 issue as a general subject in our next six

11 month session and start a task force to help

12 us with that. So, this is just for the sunset.

13 Also wanted to thank Katrina, she

14 was instrumental in the wording on this

15 recommendation. I forgot to do that yesterday,

16 so thank you very much. That's all the

17 comments I have at this point. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

19 Jay.

20 MR. FELDMAN: Do you have a like

21 time frame for that? What's your sense of,

22 because this is a reiteration, am I correct,
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1 of previous sense of the Board that this is a

2 complicated area that needs to be broken apart

3 and discussed based on the different

4 categories of flavors? 

5 MR. DEMURI: Yes, it is going to be

6 very complicated. Realistically, I doubt,

7 although I'd like, we want to start the task

8 force as soon as possible. I think we're

9 probably looking at a couple of years,

10 minimum. 

11 MR. FELDMAN: It's on the work

12 plan, I guess is what you're saying? 

13 MR. DEMURI: It is. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

16 Yes. Yes, after, with Julie Weisman's

17 comment's yesterday, it sounds like we're

18 almost in a similar situation with Flavors

19 that we were on Livestock with excipients.

20 And it'll be interesting to see

21 how we can possibly find a way to proceed

22 through, through that minefield. We're ready
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1 for the question. Conflict of interest on

2 Flavors, for re-listing of sunset? Seeing

3 none. Proceed to vote. Joe Smillie? 

4 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

6 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

8 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

10 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

12 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

14 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

16 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

18 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

20 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

22 MS. HALL: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

2 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

4 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

6 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

8 Zero no's, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

9 item, Mr. Chairman. 

10 MR. DEMURI: Thank you. The next

11 one is, the next 205.605A item, it is

12 magnesium sulfate. So, Lisa, if you can put

13 that one up there for us. It was presented to

14 the Board day before yesterday. 

15 I'd like to move for the re16 listing of magnesium sulfate, non-synthetic

17 sources only, to the National list, section

18 205.605A. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? 

20 MR. SMILLIE: Second. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Moved and seconded

22 to re-list, according to sunset 2012 the
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1 listing of magnesium sulfate, non-synthetic

2 sources only. Did I get that right? On 605A.

3 Maker of the Motion, further debate? Steve? 

4 MR. DEMURI: No. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: No comments? Any

6 more questions, comments, debate, from the

7 Board? Conflict of interest? Joe Dickson? 

8 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

10 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

12 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

14 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

16 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

18 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

20 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

22 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer?

2 MS. HALL: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff?

4 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina?

6 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy?

8 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie?

10 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

12 Zero no, fourteen yes. Re-listing motion pass.

13 Next item, Mr. Chairman. 

14 MR. DEMURI: All right, now we move

15 into 205.605B items--oh, no, I take that back.

16 One more 605A item, how could I forget. Yeast.

17 Joe Smillie? 

18 MR. SMILLIE: I move that we re19 list yeast, non-synthetic, growth impediment,

20 petrochemical substrate and sulfite waste

21 liquor is prohibited, brackets, autosalate,

22 bakers, brewers, nutritional, and smoked,
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1 nonsynthetic smoke flavoring must be

2 documented. So re-list on 205.605A. 

3 MR. DEMURI: Second. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

5 and seconded to re-list yeast on 605A, as

6 currently listed. Mr. Maker of the Motion,

7 further debate? Joe, you have anything else?

8 MR. SMILLIE: No. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate on

10 this item? Oh boy. We don't have the names on

11 the top of page two, so I'm going to have to

12 try and work through to make sure who's what,

13 here. Okay. Conflict of interest on yeast, did

14 I already ask that? Steve? 

15 MR. DEMURI: Well, we do use

16 organic yeast in some of our products, but in

17 this case, it shouldn't be a--

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Just a re-listing.

19 MR. DEMURI: --conflict, I wouldn't

20 think. Right. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Just a re-listing

22 for sunset. Any other--okay. Chair does not
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1 find that is a significant conflict to recuse.

2 Ready for the vote? Barry. 

3 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

5 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

7 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

9 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

11 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

13 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

15 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

17 MS. HALL: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

19 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

21 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 
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1 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

3 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

5 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

7 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

8 item, Mr. Chairman. 

9 MR. DEMURI: Okay, now we move into

10 the 605, 60--205.605B items. The first one of

11 those is chlorine materials, John Foster. 

12 MR. FOSTER: The Committee

13 recommends to--let's see. I would like to

14 move, we re-list chlorine materials 205.605B,

15 thank you--

16 MR. DEMURI: I've got your wingman.

17 MR. FOSTER: Thanks. In this way.

18 Chlorine materials, disinfecting and

19 sanitizing, food contact surfaces, accept that

20 residual chlorine levels in the water shall

21 not exceed the maximum residual disinfectant

22 limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act. 
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1 Open parentheses, calcium

2 hypochlorite, chlorine dioxide, and sodium

3 hypochlorite. And close parentheses. 

4 MS. MIEDEMA: Second. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

6 and seconded to re-list for sunset 2012 the

7 listing for chlorine, all the chlorine

8 materials on 605B. Further debate? Mr.

9 Chairman--go ahead. 

10 MR. FOSTER: Just wanted to make

11 note that we recognize the program has issue

12 draft guidance along, with respect to the use

13 of these materials and expect we'll continue

14 to pay attention to the comment that comes in

15 as a function of that. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Did, did the

18 Committee consider--I mean, let me put it this

19 way. If the Committee had the authority to

20 annotate during sunset, would there have been

21 any considerations that you would have brought

22 to this decision? 
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1 MR. FOSTER: Of course, it's always

2 dangerous to work in the hypothetical. So, I

3 don't know. I, it, there's too many variables,

4 particularly, there's more variables now than

5 I would have had a week ago. 

6 But, I, if that's the case,

7 certainly I would have taken into it, I think

8 we would have taken into account the draft

9 guidance from the program. Certainly, at

10 minimum, that would have been the most

11 relevant, I think. But, too many variables to,

12 to state anything clearly at this point.

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

14 Seeing none, proceed to vote. Conflict on

15 chlorine materials? Seeing none. 

16 MR. FOSTER: I mean, I would, I

17 guess, go first to say that we do use it as a

18 water sanitizer in our process. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

20 MS. HEINZE: For those of us in

21 handling, do we have to answer the conflict of

22 interest question for every material, or can
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1 the blanket statement stand? 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: We will take that

3 as a fairly blanket statement, but please

4 notify the Board and the Chair if any of the

5 items that are subsequently coming up are more

6 significant than your blanket statement

7 includes. Katrina--oh--

8 MS. HEINZE: Point well taken,

9 thank you. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. So. Anything--

11 blanket statements are fine. Anything more

12 significant, please let us know. Steve? 

13 MR. DEMURI: Blanket. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Blanket. Anybody

15 else? Tracy. 

16 MS. MIEDEMA: I also work for a

17 company that uses the material as a water

18 sanitzer. In water, as a sanitizer. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

20 MR. SMILLIE: I want to go on the

21 record, I don't think that that's the issue.

22 The issue is, "Did you sell chlorine?" That's
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1 what would be cause for recusal, not that you

2 use it or not. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: We're just asking,

4 we're just asking for full disclosure of

5 potential conflicts. Joe? 

6 MR. DICKSON: Just in the interest

7 of full disclosure, I also work for a company

8 that uses chlorine as a water sanitizer and

9 many other materials that are up for re10 listing. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: I think all of us

12 at some point have touched, come across this

13 product. So. All right. So, just like I say,

14 I'm taking most of those as, we'll take, the

15 Chair will take most of those as blankets, but

16 please notify the Chair if any of the items

17 that we'll be discussing are, have more

18 significant connection. 

19 Okay. One more time, any further

20 debate on this item? Okay. For the motion to

21 re-list on 605B the listing for all the

22 chlorinated materials for sunset 2012. Steve?
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1 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

3 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

5 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

7 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

9 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

11 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

13 MS. HALL: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

15 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

17 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

19 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

21 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 
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1 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

3 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

5 Zero no's, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Yes,

6 go ahead. 

7 MR. DEMURI: The next item is

8 another 205.605B. It's ferrous sulfate, and

9 John will present that one, as well. 

10 MR. FOSTER: Thank you. I'd like to

11 move that--

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Point of order. 

13 MR. SMILLIE: What is the material,

14 again? 

15 MR. DEMURI: Ferrous sulfate. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Yes. It is

17 correct on the agenda. It's been corrected on

18 the documents. We have too many phosphates,

19 sulfates, ammoniates, whatever -ates on the,

20 the voting sheet, we need to all make the

21 correction for ferrous sulfate. Okay. John? 

22 MR. FOSTER: Thanks for point that
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1 out, Joe. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you, thank

3 you, Joe. 

4 MR. FOSTER: I would like to move

5 that to re-list on 205.605B, ferrous sulfate,

6 annotated, for iron enrichment or

7 fortification of foods when required by

8 regulation or recommended, or, yes. Or

9 recommended. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? 

11 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: It's been moved and

13 seconded to re-list ferrous sulfate for, under

14 sunset 2012 on 605B. John, Maker of the

15 Motion, any further debate? 

16 MR. FOSTER: No. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Any further debate

18 on this issue? Any additional conflict from

19 the batch? Proceed to vote. John? 

20 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

22 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

2 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

4 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

6 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

8 MS. HALL: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

10 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

12 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

14 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

16 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

18 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

20 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

22 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

2 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. 

3 MR. DEMURI: The next item is

4 pectin, low methoxy, for 205.605B. Joe? 

5 MR. SMILLIE: I move that we re6 list pectin low methoxy on 205.605B. 

7 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

9 and seconded to re-list pectin low-methoxy on

10 605B. Mr. Maker of the Motion, any further

11 debate? 

12 MR. SMILLIE: No. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Any further

14 questions or debate on this issue? Jeff? 

15 MR. MOYER: Just a point of

16 clarification. This, this doesn't supersede or

17 impact the previous vote we just took on

18 pectin, this is just a placeholder to keep

19 everything moving as it is until the new

20 motion, or the new recommendation can get

21 processed through the program, correct? 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Correct. 
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1 MR. MOYER: Thank you. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. All right.

3 So, just so everyone is aware, the necessity

4 for this is because the current listing on 606

5 for pectin R is pectin high methoxy only, so

6 this is allowing the continued use of low7 methoxy. Even though the Committee determined

8 that there is not really a difference. 

9 MR. SMILLIE: There's a difference.

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Further

11 debate? Conflict about the batch? Ready for

12 the question. Jay? 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

15 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

17 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

19 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

21 MS. HALL: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 
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1 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

3 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

5 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

7 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

9 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

11 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

13 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

15 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

17 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

18 item, please. 

19 MR. DEMURI: The next item is

20 phosphoric acid. Joe Dickson? 

21 MR. DICKSON: I'd like to move that

22 phosphoric acid be re-listed on 205.605B. 
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1 MS. MIEDEMA: Second. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

3 and seconded for the re-listing of phosphoric

4 acid on, according to sunset 2012 on 205.605B.

5 Any further debate, Mr. Maker of the Motion?

6 MR. DICKSON: No. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Further questions--

8 Jeff? 

9 MR. MOYER: I think it would be

10 wise to read the annotation into the motion,

11 as well. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Could we please

13 just have, at least have a full reading of the

14 annotation into the record? 

15 MR. DICKSON: The motion is to re16 list phosphoric acid on 205.605B with the

17 annotation cleaning of food contact surfaces

18 and equipment only. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Tracy,

20 seconded the motion, will sort of, do that as

21 a friendly Amendment. Accept that as the

22 Amendment? 
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1 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, great. So,

3 re-listing of phosphoric acid on 605B again.

4 Any further debate? Any conflict about the

5 batch? Ready for the question. Katrina? 

6 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

8 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

10 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

12 MS. HALL: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

14 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

16 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

18 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

20 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

2 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

4 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair, yes. Zero

10 no, fourteen yes's. Motion passes. Next item,

11 please. 

12 MR. DEMURI: Next item, 205.605B,

13 is silicon dioxide. John Foster. 

14 MR. FOSTER: I would like to move

15 to re-list silicon dioxide on 205.605 without

16 annotation. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: B. 

18 MR. FOSTER: Sorry, 205.605B,

19 without annotation. 

20 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been

22 seconded for the re-listing of silicon dioxide
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1 on 205.605B according to the sunset 2012. Mr.

2 Maker of the Motion, any further debate? 

3 MR. FOSTER: Not debate as far as I

4 know, just recognition that there is a

5 petition to remove silicon dioxide that we

6 will be considering in the next year's work

7 plan. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

9 Seeing none, ready for the question. Any

10 conflict about the batch? Wendy? 

11 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

13 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

15 MS. HALL: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

17 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

19 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

21 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 
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1 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

3 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

5 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

7 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

9 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

13 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

15 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

16 item, please. 

17 MR. DEMURI: The next item is

18 sodium citrate, also for 205.605B. Joe

19 Dickson. 

20 MR. DICKSON: I move to re-list

21 sodium citrate to 205.605B as part of the

22 sunset process. 
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1 MR. DEMURI: Second. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Moved and seconded

3 for the re-listing of sodium citrate on 605B

4 according to 2012 sunset. Maker of the Motion,

5 further debate? 

6 MR. DICKSON: No. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Any further debate?

8 Any conflict outside the batch? Ready for the

9 question. Kevin? 

10 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

12 MS. HALL: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

14 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

16 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

18 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

20 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

2 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

4 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

10 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

12 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

14 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

15 item, please? 

16 MR. DEMURI: Next item also

17 205.605B is sodium hydroxide. Joe? 

18 MR. DICKSON: I move to re-list

19 sodium hydroxide with the annotation

20 prohibited for use in live peeling of fruits

21 and vegetables to 205.605B as part of the 2012

22 sunset process. 
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1 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Moved and seconded

3 to re-list sodium hydroxide as annotated on

4 605B for the 2012 sunset review process. Maker

5 of the Motion, further debate? 

6 MR. DICKSON: No. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Other debate?

8 Conflict outside the batch? Ready for the

9 question. Jennifer? 

10 MS. HALL: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

12 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

14 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

16 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

18 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

20 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

22 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

2 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

4 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

6 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

8 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy?

10 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

12 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

14 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

15 item, please. 

16 MR. DEMURI: 205.605B item again.

17 Sodium phosphates. Joe? 

18 MR. DICKSON: I would like to move

19 that sodium phosphates with the annotation for

20 use only in dairy foods be re-listed to

21 205.605B as part of the 2012 sunset process.

22 MR. DEMURI: Second. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

2 and seconded to re-list sodium phosphate as

3 annotated on 605B according to the 2012 sunset

4 review process. Maker of the Motion, do you

5 have any further debate? 

6 MR. DICKSON: I do not. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Any further debate

8 on this issue? Additional conflict of

9 interest? Seeing none, proceed to vote. Jeff?

10 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

12 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

14 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

16 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

18 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

20 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

22 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

2 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

6 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

8 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

10 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

12 MS. HALL: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

14 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

15 item, please. 

16 MR. DEMURI: This is the last

17 205.605B item, sulfur dioxide. Joe, again. 

18 MR. DICKSON: I move to re-list

19 sulfur dioxide with the annotation for use

20 only in wine labeled "Made with organic

21 grapes" provided that total sulfite

22 concentration does not exceed 100 parts per
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1 million, for re-listing on 205.605B as part of

2 2012 sunset. 

3 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Been moved and

5 seconded for the re-listing of sulfur dioxide

6 as annotated on 605B according to the sunset

7 2012 process, review process. Any further

8 debate, Maker of the Motion? 

9 MR. DICKSON: Just want to note for

10 the record that the, a petition has been

11 submitted to remove the annotation that

12 restricts the use of sulfur dioxide in wine,

13 but that is not currently on the table. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Currently on

15 the table is only the re-listing. Further

16 debate? Jay? 

17 MR. FELDMAN: I assume that's on

18 the work plan too, for--

19 MR. DEMURI: Most definitely. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

21 Conflicts? Again, drinking wine does not

22 qualify as a conflict of interest. Ready for
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1 the question. Tina? 

2 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

4 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

6 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

8 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

10 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

12 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

14 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

16 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

18 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

20 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

22 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

2 MS. HALL: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

4 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

6 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. We are

7 five minutes to noon. We're time for, we're

8 scheduled for our break at noon. We are well

9 ahead of schedule. Rather than break up the

10 606 items, I think it would be good to take,

11 take our lunch now. 

12 Please be back, one o'clock. Thank

13 you. We're in recess. 

14 (Whereupon, the off the record at

15 11:55 a.m. and resuming at 1:14 p.m.) 

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 1:14 p.m. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Hope everyone

4 had a great lunch. We are still well ahead of

5 schedule, and we are in the middle of our

6 votes for handling Committee and back to

7 Chairman of the handling Committee to continue

8 with our sunset 2012 recommendations for 606.

9 MR. DEMURI: Thank you. As Dan

10 mentioned, we are moving into the 205.606

11 items now. The first one on the list on the

12 agenda is Colors, and that's one that Katrina

13 handled for us, so, Katrina? With your mouth

14 full. 

15 MS. HEINZE: I did not realize I

16 was first. I'm sorry. Give me a sec, it's not

17 open on my computer. Okay. Thank you for your

18 patience. I'll do the motion and then some

19 explanation. 

20 The, I move that the following

21 colors on 205.606 be re-listed through the

22 sunset process. Do I need to read the CAS
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1 numbers, or can I just read the names of the

2 colors? 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Just read the

4 names.

5 MS. HEINZE: Okay. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: And we'll again,

7 assume that the list is inclusive and complete

8 and it won't be part of the, as we proceed

9 with our re-listing of the motion. 

10 MS. HEINZE: Okay. So I'll repeat

11 the motion. I move that the following colors

12 on 205.606 be re-listed through the sunset

13 process. 

14 Beet juice extract color, beta

15 carotine extract color from carrots, black

16 currant juice color, black purple carrot juice

17 color, blueberry juice color, carrot juice

18 color, cherry juice color, chokeberry aronia

19 juice color, elderberry juice color, grape

20 juice color, grape skin extract color. 

21 Paprika color, dried powder, and

22 vegetable oil extract, pumpkin juice color,
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1 purple potato juice color, red cabbage extract

2 color, red radish extract color, saffron

3 extract color, tumeric extract color. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? Okay. It's

5 been moved and seconded to re-list the

6 eighteen colors listed on 606 for 2012 sunset

7 as, as included in the motion. Just for

8 clarification, that is all of the colors on

9 606 except annotto, correct? 

10 MS. HEINZE: That is correct. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. That's the

12 other way to look at it, so. Okay. Maker of

13 the Motion, further debate? 

14 MS. HEINZE: I just want to

15 highlight for folks that this passed Committee

16 with five yes's, zero no's, two absents, and

17 we do have a public comment supporting these

18 relistings and no public comment opposing. 

19 I also want to highlight, again,

20 that we believe the CAS numbers with these

21 listings are not correct. We have public

22 comment to that fact, and so this
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1 recommendation includes a request to the

2 program to fix those when they do this re3 listing. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate? We

5 continue with our blanket conflict of interest

6 statements. Anything above the batch, the

7 batch announcements? Seeing none, any, one

8 last call for further debate as I line up my

9 voting sheet here. Ready for the question. For

10 the vote on re-listing of the sunset, the

11 colors on 606 for sunset 2012, Tracy? 

12 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

14 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

16 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

18 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

20 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

22 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

4 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

6 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

8 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

10 MS. HALL: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

12 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

14 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

16 Zero no. Fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

17 item, please, Mr. Chairman. 

18 MR. DEMURI: Thank you. It's not on

19 your agenda, at least the agenda I have, but

20 it is on the voting sheet, and the next one is

21 annotto. Obviously also a color, but that was

22 one that we broke out of the other eighteen,
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1 so. Katrina? 

2 MS. HEINZE: Okay. Since our

3 discussion Tuesday, the Committee has met and

4 there's been a change in the recommendation,

5 so I will do the motion, and then I will

6 explain our rationale and why we made the

7 change, if that's acceptable. 

8 Okay. I move that annotto extract

9 color, water and oil soluble, be re-listed on

10 205.606. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: That was--who's the

12 second? Jennifer. 

13 MS. HEINZE: Okay. Lisa, if you can

14 scroll down to the last paragraph in the

15 Committee summary. Just a refresher, as we

16 looked at this material, we did receive public

17 comment saying that the liquid form is

18 available, the powdered form is not. 

19 I can summarize that in more

20 detail for you guys. We also had discussion

21 about whether or not the original Committee

22 recommendation could be executed, or
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1 implemented by the program as we desired. We

2 got feedback from the program that they were

3 concerned about that. 

4 So we've now added a paragraph to

5 our recommendation that says, "Unfortunately,

6 the listing for annotto extract color on

7 205.606 does not list the liquid and powdered

8 forms in the annotation, so current NOSB

9 policy does not allow only one form to be

10 removed. The NOSB has received a petition for

11 the removal of annotto extract color from

12 205.606, which the handling Committee intends

13 to review immediately. At this time, we're

14 going to recommend that annotto extract color

15 be re-listed but expect to address the forms

16 available in response to the petition we have

17 received." 

18 So, that's our intention. Any

19 questions? 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Questions and

21 comments. Jay? 

22 MR. FELDMAN: To clarify, we
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1 received comment from a company that said they

2 now do have the powdered form? 

3 MS. HEINZE: We received public

4 comment from the supplier of a liquid annotto

5 that said they do have that form. WE also

6 received some public comment saying that,

7 asking that annotto not be re-listed. Then, we

8 received public comment asking that it be re9 listed. 

10 And, finally, we received public

11 comment from a handler who uses powdered

12 annotto extract who says they have tried the

13 liquid and the ground annotto seed, which is

14 available, and that they were unable to

15 produce the product that consumers wanted to

16 purchase. 

17 So, we had mixed public comment,

18 which was supported by my very informal walk

19 up and down the grocery store shelf. 

20 MR. FELDMAN: I guess, are we

21 talking about, can I mention the company name,

22 D.D. Williams? I thought they submitted
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1 comments that they had received your inquiry,

2 or somebody's inquiry, and since that time,

3 they had, they now have the powdered form

4 available. I just want to be clear, that,

5 again, in the interest of making 606 work that

6 that information is available to us. 

7 MS. HEINZE: Yes. Thank you for

8 bringing that up. And actually I should say

9 that when annotto was originally listed in

10 2007, there was some organic on the market,

11 but it was very unreliable and the handling

12 products that were being produced at the time.

13 So, I think annotto is a great

14 example of having been listed because the

15 quality or form was not right, and we're

16 seeing really a big development in this

17 market, which I think is great news. 

18 So I'm excited about the petition.

19 We'll look at it when we get it. Hopefully we

20 can sort out this forms thing, and learn more

21 about the powdered, where there seems to be

22 some debate about whether it's working or not,
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1 and available in the right quantity, which I

2 think is also a question. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

4 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Further questions

6 and debate? Conflict on this item? Okay.

7 Seeing none. Ready to vote. Joe Smillie? 

8 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

10 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

12 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

14 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

16 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

20 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

22 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

2 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

4 MS. HALL: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

6 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

8 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

10 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

12 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

13 item, please. 

14 MR. DEMURI: Okay. The next item,

15 another 205.606 item, fructooligosaccharides,

16 better known as FOS. I would move that the

17 NOSB re-list fructo-oligosaccharides to

18 205.606 of the National List. 

19 MS. HEINZE: Second. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved

21 and seconded to re-list fructooligosaccharides

22 to the National list 606 according to sunset
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1 2012 process. Further debate, Mr. Maker of the

2 Motion? 

3 MR. DEMURI: Not from me. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

5 Jay? 

6 MR. FELDMAN: I don't know how

7 deeply you guys looked into this but there's

8 been a lot of, seems like controversy around

9 this. I don't know how widely used it is. I

10 don't know much about it, but in looking

11 through some of the literature on this, there

12 seems to be concerns that have come up--did

13 you guys uncover any concerns associated with

14 its use? 

15 MR. DEMURI: Nobody made any public

16 comment to that effect. All the public comment

17 we received were, was in favor of re-listing

18 it. And it's not widely used, but it is used

19 in some organic fruits. Baby foods, some

20 beverages. Biscuits. A variety of products,

21 but not widely used. I mean, the spectrum is

22 wide but it's not used a lot, not a big
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1 quantity. 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

4 MS. HEINZE: I was going to add

5 that when we originally listed this there was

6 some discussion of those concerns. So it's not

7 new information. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

9 Seeing none, any conflicts? Hearing none.

10 Proceed to vote. Joe Dickson? 

11 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

13 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

15 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

17 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

21 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 
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1 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

3 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

5 MS. HALL: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

7 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

9 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

11 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

13 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

15 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

16 item, please. 

17 MR. DEMURI: Next agenda item is

18 also a 205.606 item. It's hops. Joe Smillie?

19 MR. SMILLIE: I would move that we

20 re-list hops from humulus lupus on 205.606. 

21 MR. DEMURI: Second. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: It has been moved
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1 and seconded to re-list hops on 205.606,

2 according to the sunset 2012 process. Any

3 further debate, Mr. Maker of the Motion? Joe?

4 MR. SMILLIE: No. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate on

6 this item? Again, this is--Jeff? 

7 MR. MOYER: Not--I was just going

8 to restate the same thing I believe you were

9 going to say, again, this is just clarifying

10 the vote that we made earlier on hops, when we

11 talked about, this is a way to protect hops on

12 the list until that new vote that we just took

13 works it's way through the process. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. Yes, if, if

15 that cannot get through rulemaking up to the

16 deadline that we have, this is the

17 authorization to the program and the Secretary

18 to re-list hops on, in its, with it's existing

19 annotation. 

20 MR. SMILLIE: I have full faith

21 that they will do so. Full faith on this one.

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 
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1 MR. FLAMM: I'm really not clear on

2 why, in this case, this is necessary, since

3 the time and everything, so close together, I

4 think this could be misconstrued. Could you

5 clarify that for me? Thanks. 

6 MR. SMILLIE: Yes, I'll do my best.

7 Basically, there's two different items. One is

8 the response to the petition, which we want to

9 have it removed from the list on 2013. This is

10 the sunset item, which automatically renews

11 it. 

12 So, the reason why this is, the

13 reason why we're re-listing is because we

14 don't know how long it will take the program

15 to establish the new annotation, to cut it off

on, to remove it on January 1st 16 , 2013. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: I have a question

18 for either katrina or maybe Lisa Bailey. What

19 is the date on hops, for it's sunset? 

20 MS. HEINZE: I'm letting Lisa

21 Brines answer. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Lisa Brines, yes.
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1 What did I say? Oh, sorry. Lisa Brines. 

2 MS. BRINES: Lisa Brines, NOP

3 standards Division. The current sunset date

for hops is June 27th 4 , 2012. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. So the main

6 impact there, Barry, is that puts the sunset

7 before harvest. And before that crop will be,

8 would be ready. Jennifer? 

9 MS. HALL: But, what that also

10 does, then, if they don't get to rulemaking,

11 it does then put it on the sunset for another

12 five years. So the risk is the one harvest, is

13 what we're talking about, right? 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: The risk is one

15 harvest. But if they're not going to be able

16 to get an annotation change with the new drop

17 dead date, this Board would have the

18 opportunity to bring forth another motion to

19 remove it from the list, which would proceed

20 fairly smoothly. Does that make sense? Steve?

21 MR. DEMURI: And don't forget, this

22 is subject to commercial availability, and I
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1 think all the certifiers that certify hops are

2 in this room, or have been in the last few

3 days, so I'm sure they heard loud and clear

4 that there's plenty of hops out there, so I

5 would think they'd be looking into that pretty

6 closely. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Program? 

8 MR. MCEVOY: Arthur said that we'll

9 get it done. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Our concern for you

11 getting, for this getting done is not in your

12 hands. It's always the other things that you

13 have to do in the process. We're sure you will

14 get your process stuff done in a timely

15 fashion. Okay. Anything else? Any further

16 debate on this? All right. Any, again,

17 drinking beer is not a conflict. Any other

18 conflicts? Proceeding with the vote. Barry? 

19 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

21 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 
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1 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

5 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

7 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

9 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

11 MS. HALL: No. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: No? 

13 MS. HALL: No. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: No. Jeff? 

15 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

17 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

19 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

21 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 
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1 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

3 One no, thirteen yes. Motion passes. Next

4 item, please. 

5 MR. DEMURI: Next item for 205.606

6 is inulin, oligofructose enriched. I would

7 like to move that the Board vote to re-list

8 inulin, oligofructose enriched, to the

9 National List in section 205.606. 

10 MS. ELLOR: I'll second. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Been moved and

12 seconded to re-list inulin, oligofructose

13 enriched on National List 606. According to

14 the sunset 2012 review process. Mr. Maker of

15 the Motion, any further debate? 

16 MR. DEMURI: No. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Any other debate

18 and comments on this item? Any conflict?

19 Seeing none, proceed to new vote. Steve? 

20 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

22 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

4 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

6 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

8 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

10 MS. HALL: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

12 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

14 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

16 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

18 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

20 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

22 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

2 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

3 item, please. 

4 MR. DEMURI: Next and last item is

5 whey protein concentrate --

6 MR. GIACOMINI: No --

7 MR. DEMURI: Oh, it's not? 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: You have two more.

9 MR. DEMURI: Oh. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Pectin high-methoxy

11 is your next one. 

12 MR. DEMURI: Oh, okay. Pectin. Is

13 that the next one on the -- 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. 

15 MR. DEMURI: Missed one. Sorry

16 about that. I got ahead of myself. So, the

17 next one for 606 is pectin, and that would be

18 Joe Smillie. 

19 MR. SMILLIE: I move that pectin

20 high-methoxy be re-listed on 205.606.

21 MS. MIEDEMA: Second. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy, thank you.
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1 Been moved and seconded for pectin high2 methoxy be re-listed on section 606, from

3 sunset 2012 review process. Maker of the

4 motion, any debate? 

5 MR. SMILLIE: No. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Further -- other

7 debate and comments? Questions? Any conflict?

8 Seeing none, ready to vote. John? 

9 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

13 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

15 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

17 MR. ENGELBERT: No. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

19 MS. HALL: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

21 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 
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1 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

3 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

5 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

7 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

9 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

11 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

13 One no, thirteen yes. Motion passes. Next

14 item, please. 

15 MR. DEMURI: Okay. The next item

16 for 606 is corn starch. John Foster? 

17 MR. FOSTER: Let's see. We have,

18 let's see -- sorry -- we have corn starch to

19 be listed on 205.606. We certainly have

20 learned a great deal about that, if only

21 inadvertently. 

22 Since we don't have a
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1 determination on the majority's recommendation

2 on CSL, I'd like to ask the Board to consider

3 the minority recommendation and to help

4 clarify this, and also ask the program for

5 clarification at this time. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: I was expecting

7 something else. I didn't quite get all of what

8 you were saying there. Restate that, please.

9 MR. FOSTER: Sure. Learned a lot

10 about corn starch manufacturing in the last

11 few days, if only inadvertently. And since we

12 don't have a determination on corn steep

13 liquor, which is the same process as corn

14 starch, I'd like to ask the Board to consider

15 the minority, the Crops Committee minority

16 recommendation on corn steep liquor, and ask

17 the program if they have any input of

18 clarification on that process. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Well, the current

20 position from the Chair was that the Committee

21 had decided to withdraw. We had a member

22 trying to put forth that as a motion. It was
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1 ruled out of order since the Committee had --

2 that item had not been presented by the

3 Committee. 

4 If the program has anything to add

5 on this, they're certainly welcome to at this

6 point in time to proceed with what you're

7 trying to do, with what you're looking to do,

8 would be a motion to appeal the decision of

9 the Chair, which would require a second. A

10 second, no debate, and a majority vote. 

11 So, if you would like to make a

12 motion to proceed with -- pardon, Jay? 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Sorry. I'd like to

14 call a point of order. I think that the issue

15 is corn starch sunset and we have either a

16 Committee recommendation or we don't on corn

17 starch. We have to consider the majority

18 opinion, my belief. If it's introduced. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: I would find the

20 action that the member's trying to make more

21 appropriate at the conclusion of the handling

22 Committee's work. But I would be willing to
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1 take that motion, I would just appreciate it,

2 that were, presented them, if you would just

3 please proceed with corn starch at this time.

4 MR. FOSTER: I made a motion. If it

5 fails for lack of a second, then it fails. But

6 my understanding is --

7 MR. GIACOMINI: That's the same

8 motion that Mr. Smillie made earlier and I

9 ruled it out of order. 

10 MR. FOSTER: Okay. Okay, are you

11 doing the same here? 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. 

13 MR. FOSTER: Then to be re-listed

14 on 205.606, corn starch, native. I'd make the

15 motion to re-list cornstarch on 606,

16 obviously, as an agricultural product. 

17 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: It's been moved and

19 seconded to re-list corn starch as annotated

20 on 606 under 2012 sunset review process. Maker

21 of the motion, any further debate? Other

22 further debate? Arthur?
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1 MR. NEAL: Yes, I had a question.

2 What I heard was, John, in essence, deferred

3 making a decision on corn starch because of

4 the information that they learned regarding

5 corn steep liquor. I didn't hear directly, an

6 appeal of the Chair's decision concerning corn

7 steep liquor. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: The Chair heard

9 John making a motion to consider and bring up

10 the minority opinion on corn steep liquor. Was

11 that correct? 

12 MR. FOSTER: Correct, I was not

13 challenging the Chair on the decision --

14 MR. GIACOMINI: You were just

15 trying to --

16 MR. FOSTER: - the majority --

17 MR. GIACOMINI: -- see if I was

18 going to be consistent? 

19 MR. FOSTER: I was -- no, I was

20 just asking for the Board to consider the

21 minority recommendation. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Okay. We can
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1 -- yes. Are you comfortable at this time still

2 proceeding with 606 corn starch?

3 MR. FOSTER: I would prefer to go

4 back to my prior request, the motion that was,

5 as far as I know, was on the floor for the

6 Board to consider the minority recommendation.

7 MS. MIEDEMA: Which minority

8 recommendation?

9 MR. FOSTER: Crops Committee

10 minority recommendation on corn steep liquor.

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Tracy? 

12 MS. MIEDEMA: When you say

13 minority, what you're talking about isn't a

14 motion that was on the table before the Board

15 but a within-Committee motion that was

16 discussed today on the floor that the

17 Committee opted not to bring corn steep

18 liquor? 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Point of

20 clarification, Mr.-- Madame Crops Chairperson.

21 That, that is simply, is that simply listed in

22 the document as a minority opinion or is there
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1 a structure to it in the form of a motion?

2 The minority opinion on the corn steel liquor

3 document. 

4 MS. ELLOR: It is a minority

5 opinion.

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Not in the form of

7 a motion? 

8 MS. ELLOR: Not in the, not on the

9 Committee level. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Katrina? 

11 MS. HEINZE: I believe on

12 classification, since there isn't a third

13 choice, if you make a motion that something is

14 synthetic and it fails, therefore it's non15 synthetic.

16 MR. GIACOMINI: The program felt

17 that on this item, this was a substantive

18 vote, and they were requesting a two-thirds

19 majority. 

20 MS. HEINZE: I guess I don't

21 disagree with that, but if, if you move that

22 something is blue, and something can either be
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1 blue or not blue and you move that it's blue,

2 and that fails, then what does one do? 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: We, we reviewed

4 that, Katrina, we reviewed, we discussed that

5 extensively. It is definitely an either/or.

6 The program was fairly insistent that it was

7 a substantive decision. If the entire process

8 had played out in the normal way, what we were

9 expecting to do was take the majority opinion

10 at, motion, vote on that. 

11 If that did not receive the two

12 third majority, to present the minority

13 opinion in the form of a motion, if that did

14 not receive a two thirds vote, to then send it

15 back to Committee for further review and

16 consideration, and a review of the, of the

17 facts. 

18 Debatable facts, conflicting

19 facts, but facts. That was the plan. We have

20 got to explaining that whole process, but that

21 was the plan. The process right now, based on

22 the Board, the Chair's decision in accepting
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1 a motion without it being presented by the

2 Committee, it would call for someone to appeal

3 the decision of the Chair, requires a second,

4 not debatable, simple majority vote, of which

5 then, if that passed, the, a member of the

6 Board would be able to make a motion to

7 represent the minority opinion, which would

8 need to pass by two thirds. 

9 But, the Chair does not feel that

10 that automatically, automatically brings back

11 a vote on the majority opinion regarding,

12 regardless of the result of that vote. Does

13 that make sense? 

14 MS. HEINZE: Thank you for

15 explaining the process. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. We would

17 have gotten to that, we just, it was, we were

18 pre-empted. Okay. So. John, do we have, do,

19 are you, do we have a motion to appeal the

20 decision of the Chair regarding the

21 presentation of that motion? 

22 MR. FOSTER: With a qualifier, yes.
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: I need to hear, I

2 move to appeal the decision of the Chair

3 regarding --

4 MR. FOSTER: I move to appeal the

5 decision of the Chair. May I qualify? 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay --

7 MR. FOSTER: With input from the

8 program, with any guidance they can provide.

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. I don't' know

10 what guidance we're looking for, but let's,

11 even before we, you're, you're kind of asking

12 for an appeal, the, the guidance before the

13 appeal. 

14 MR. FOSTER: I'd, I'd like to

15 appeal the decision of the Chair. Move the

16 decision, appeal the decision of the Chair. To

17 move to -- okay -- appeal the decision of the

18 Chair. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: All right. 

20 MS. MIEDEMA: I'll second. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: I don't know -- I

22 don't know where we're going to put this,
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1 Tina. Let me see. Okay. All right. We will --

2 let's put this on the line that we have at the

3 end of, we have one line at the end of Crops.

4 Let's try and see if we can put it there. 

5 MS. ELLOR: We already got

6 something there. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Well, you're going

8 to have to move it. Okay. So We're going to

9 appeal the decision of the Chair. Do we have

10 a second? 

11 MS. MIEDEMA: Second. 

12 MR. MCEVOY: For clarification

13 purposes, could we state for the record what

14 John is appealing, what decision by the Chair

15 John is appealing? Is it the decision that the

16 Chair made just a few moments ago, or the

17 decision from earlier today? 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: I, if I can state

19 that so that I understand it, you tell me if

20 I'm right. You are appealing the decision of

21 the Chair that the motion, that the making of

22 a motion by a Board member regarding the
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1 minority opinion on CSL without CSL document

2 being presented by the Crops Committee was out

3 of order. 

4 MR. FOSTER: Yes. That is correct.

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Is that

6 clear? Okay. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Point of order. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

9 MR. FELDMAN: I don't believe that

10 the Board has the authority to repeal a

11 decision of this nature, which is identified

12 in our policy manual as proper procedure. This

13 is not a discretionary act by the Chair, the

14 Chair is enforcing the policy memo -- or

15 policy -- Barry, you can read that paragraph

16 -- and as a result, we need a ruling on, an

17 interpretation of the policy, which we, which

18 the Chair has the authority to do, and only

19 the Chair. And, based on a reading of our

20 policy. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: The, the Chair had,

22 in reviewing the policy manual, where, and if,
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1 Barry, if you can find that, it essentially

2 says in the presentation by the Committee,

3 historically, that the Chair feels that that

4 had been viewed as the formal presentation of

5 a document for voting by the Committee today

6 on the last day for voting. 

7 The Chair will take this motion

8 on, to appeal, on, from the viewpoint if

9 members feel that the presentation of this

10 item is due, it comes about from the posting

11 of the document, the discussion that we've

12 had, and the fact that it was discussed two

13 days ago, in, in, in a Board format in front

14 of the entire Board. 

15 MR. FELDMAN: I just think that's

16 out of order. We, we, this is proper, this is

17 procedure that has been used at this meeting

18 today, on other --

19 MR. GIACOMINI: I, I agree with, I

20 agree with your view of that, I'm going to

21 overrule your point of order, though. And

22 we'll leave that up, that interpretation --
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1 MR. FELDMAN: May I appeal that

2 overruling, or? 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Well, you've got,

4 we're going to do a vote. We're, right now,

5 there's no debate, we have a second, there's

6 no debate. We vote on the motion to appeal the

7 decision of the Chair. 

8 It's a majority vote. Everybody

9 has the right to make their vote on that. No

10 debate. I addressed the issue with Jay,

11 because he was calling a point of order in

12 regard to the accepting of the motion. 

13 Okay. So, I've got the book here,

14 if anybody wants to look at it. So, in voting

15 on the motion to appeal the decision of the

16 Chair regarding the allowance of a motion by

17 a member of the Board on an issue that was not

18 presented from the Committee. 

19 Since we're here, we're kind of in

20 a suspended animation here on our voting

21 sheet. I'll just begin at the start. So, a yes

22 vote is to, is to appeal -- to overrule the
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1 Chair. A no vote supports the Chair. So, Jay?

2 MR. FELDMAN: No. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

4 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

5 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy, yes. Kevin?

7 MR. ENGELBERT: No. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

9 MS. HALL: No. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

11 MR. MOYER: No. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

13 MS. ELLOR: No. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

15 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Smillie? 

17 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

19 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

21 MR. FLAMM: No. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 
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1 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

3 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Since we have an

5 even number of people and we don't have one to

6 break a tie, the Chair has already made it's

7 claim, and it's, we're looking for the opinion

8 of the rest of the body. The Chair will

9 abstain. 

10 So, we have one, two, three --

11 seven -- seven no -- six no, seven yes. Motion

12 passes. So, you, do I understand that you

13 prefer to proceed with the corn steep liquor

14 minority opinion vote before your voting on

15 corn starch? For six -- re-listing on 606? 

16 MR. FOSTER: I would, again, with

17 input from the program. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Oh, okay. 

19 MR. FOSTER: If they have it. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Now we're back on

21 input from the program. Does the program have

22 any other input on this, or are you just --
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1 MR. MCEVOY: What kind of input are

2 you looking for? 

3 MR. FOSTER: Since this is a little

4 uncharted water, anything you think is

5 relevant based on your experience and

6 understanding of the process. 

7 MR. MCEVOY: I would urge the Board

8 members to take a look at page sixty-four of

9 your policy handbook which has parliamentary

10 procedures at a glance. So, this will help you

11 with your decision making in this --

12 MR. GIACOMINI: I believe, I

13 believe we're past that, Miles. We've

14 overruled the Chair, and the motion to, a

15 motion to present the minority opinion on CSL

16 in the form of a main motion is now in, would

17 now be in order. 

18 MR. MCEVOY: I am responding to the

19 question that Mr. Foster --

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Okay. 

21 MR. FOSTER: -- asked of any, any

22 comments that we have, and that's about all we
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1 have at this point. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. What page is

3 that? One second, John. All right, that's the

4 wrong document. Was there anything specific on

5 that page you wanted to bring to our

6 attention? 

7 MR. MCEVOY: Well, part of the

8 question is, what are your procedures. So we

9 looked at, we looked at FACA. FACA doesn't

10 really give you any particular guidance in

11 terms of how you make decisions or bring up

12 motions. 

13 What it says is that any advisory

14 Board needs to have procedures in place of how

15 they make decisions. That's your NOSB policy

16 manual. So that's what you should be looking

17 at in terms of reference in terms of how you

18 proceed. 

19 You reference Robert's Rules of

20 Order, and in Appendix D, you have a short

21 part of Robert's Rules of -- you have a short

22 part of Robert's Rules, and that should be
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1 utilized as reference in this process. There

2 you go. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: I have two books,

4 right here. 

5 MR. MCEVOY: You have two books.

6 So, but for the other members of the Board,

7 this might be a good area to look at because

8 there seems to be a lot of questions right now

9 in terms of how to move forward.

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe, first, do you

11 have anything to follow? Tracy? 

12 MR. SMILLIE: MY question was about

13 FACA, and it was answered. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Tracy? 

15 MS. MIEDEMA: Just as a historical

16 note here, I know We've had motions from the

17 floor before that didn't come out of

18 Committee, and I'm having a hard time

19 remembering what they all were, but they

20 weren't as rare --

21 MR. GIACOMINI: I don't know what

22 they'd be, I don't not recall any. 
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1 MS. MIEDEMA: A motion from the

2 floor? What about --

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Not in the

4 situation of where a document was withdrawn by

5 the Committee. 

6 MS. MIEDEMA: That's the specifics

7 but I'm just wondering about the whole notion

8 of a motion from the floor is that it isn't,

9 doesn't come from a Committee vote. I, I think

10 that's, We've gotten away from it, but --

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Well, that is the

12 specific though of what we're dealing with

13 here. The debate and the reason, the reason

14 that the Chair is, you know, the Chair, the

15 Chair viewed the language in the policy and

16 procedure manual as we, as the Chair recalls

17 it has historically been done, is that when,

18 if the Committee does not bring forth a

19 recommendation for voting, it has been

20 considered not presented to the Board today.

21 It's, if the, if the Committee, if

22 the Board feels that the interpretation of
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1 that part of the policy and procedure manual

2 should be that a presentation of a document in

3 the earlier part of the Board and a discussion

4 at that point in time is the presentation of

5 that document to the Board, that's the Board's

6 decision. 

7 And that should become the policy

8 of the Board from now on, and I would

9 encourage the Policy Committee to look into

10 putting that aspect of our policy more clearly

11 into our record. So, in the, in the view of

12 the Chair, that's where we are right now. 

13 The Board has right now

14 essentially changed what the Chair has sees as

15 our historical process or our historical way

16 of doing things and viewing things that were

17 withdrawn and not presented by the Committee.

18 We've now changed that, and as a

19 result, it's the, it, the -- at the discretion

20 and of a member of the Board to now make the

21 motion which brought about the original

22 overruling by the, ruling of out of order by
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1 the Chair. Jay? 

2 MR. FELDMAN: Again, point of

3 order. And we can get a, you know, we can get

4 a ruling on this from the Office of General

5 Counsel, but this isn't a question of

6 interpretation. This is in question -- and you

7 said it could be made more clear, everything

8 can be made more clearly. 

9 But where, we're charged with

10 carrying out the procedures of our policy.

11 That's a, that's a duty we have. And the

12 procedure is very, I, I asked Barry to read it

13 earlier, is very clear. These issues come out

14 of Committee. If they don't come out of

15 Committee, they don't come to the Board. 

16 They do come out of Committee, we

17 have all kinds of opportunities to address the

18 issues. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: It's -- it's --

20 MR. FELDMAN: So, in other words, I

21 think we will get a, we will get a legal

22 reading on this and we can, we can proceed
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1 with our gut or we can proceed under the rules

2 of this, of the FACA body, which has a set of

3 procedures, legal procedures. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: The, the place

5 where the Chair disagrees with you is in the

6 clarity of what is stated in the policy and

7 procedure manual, as opposed to how it has

8 historically been enacted, and the view of

9 this Committee at this point in time to change

10 that interpretation. 

11 I, where I disagree with you is

12 that it is explicitly clear. I find, the Chair

13 finds that an opinion that bringing forth an

14 item two days ago where we did have full

15 discussion and we have been discussing this

16 item for now four days, essentially that is

17 what they're saying, it was, was presenting

18 the item. 

19 MR. FELDMAN: But again, we, we had

20 public discussion since that presentation,

21 which was intended, as our policy says, to

22 inform our decisions. It informed the
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1 Committee's decision. The Committee withdrew

2 in accordance with the policy. 

3 The policy is very clear --

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Every, every

5 decision of the Chair is appealable. If at

6 some point down the road, someone feels that

7 we have done something absolutely wrong, I

8 don't know where they come back and throw

9 things out, but part of policy and procedure

10 and everything else is that we include that we

11 are -- Robert's Rules of Order. 

12 And, appealing the opinion of the

13 Chair, the ruling of a Chair is part of

14 Robert's Rules of Order, and that's where we

15 have, and the Board has overruled them. And I,

16 I'm, I understand your point. I don't think

17 our discussion of it will, we'll just continue

18 the discussion, I don't think either one of us

19 will change the other person's mind. 

20 So, this is where we are right

21 now. Do you have something additional on this,

22 Tracy? 
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1 MS. MIEDEMA: I just was going to

2 get the citation that's been bandied about

3 here. I was just going to provide the citation

4 for what's being talked about here so we get

5 that one the record. What we're talking about

6 is page twenty under policy and procedures

7 manual, and there are four steps outlined for

8 procedures for completing Committee

9 recommendations. Nowhere in the four steps

10 does it spell out --

11 MR. GIACOMINI: No, I don't think

12 that's the section. Barry, what is the section

13 on where we come up for vote? It's a, it's a

14 whole, it's a paragraph --

15 MS. MIEDEMA: Okay -- I was just

16 cut off, but there --

17 MR. GIACOMINI: I'm sorry, but I, I

18 don't, that's --

19 MS. MIEDEMA: There are, there are

20 four steps --

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay --

22 MS. MIEDEMA: -- for procedures for
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1 completing Committee recommendations. Step

2 three is the point where We've been the last

3 two days, public comments are considered by

4 the Committee when making recommendations to

5 the Board. Step four, the Board takes action

6 on the Committee recommendation. We don't have

7 a step 3.5 that spells out that it absolutely

8 must be brought to the floor by the Committee,

9 nor does anything in our policy preclude a

10 member of this Board from making a motion on

11 putting, making a motion on the floor. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: It's the --

13 MS. MIEDEMA: We have tradition,

14 and our policy -- yes. So, I just don't want

15 to see OGC get involved, that's way, over --

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. The, the 3.1

17 as you describe it is in another section. Kim

18 Dietz, do you know what page that's on in our

19 policy and procedure manual? Anything new,

20 Jay? 

21 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, can I just say

22 in response to Tracy, just to correct the
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1 record, there is no Committee recommendation.

2 The only way this Board receives a Committee

3 recommendation is through a motion. The Board

4 operates under motions, and the Committee did

5 not present a motion on this. Therefore the

6 Committee didn't present a recommendation. 

7 Unfortunately, I wish, you know,

8 it were some other way, but that is how the

9 Rule is written and should be read. And that's

10 proper procedure under Robert's Rules of

11 Order, you can't force the Committee to

12 present a recommendation. The recommendation,

13 the preparation of a recommendation is a

14 deliberative process that starts with the

15 Committee work, hears the public opinion, vets

16 the public opinion --

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Folks, folks. We're

18 beyond this, okay? We've overruled the

19 decision of the Chair. I'm the Chair. I can

20 live with it. We're proceeding, you know,

21 we're asking if we can find, to find that one

22 paragraph so that it can be read into the
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1 record of where the Chair feels that it's an

2 interpretation that has, on this vote,

3 changing the position of the Board.

4 MS. MIEDEMA: Okay. I want to --

5 MR. GIACOMINI: No, no. Excuse me.

6 No. No. Barry, please read that paragraph.

7 Microphone, please. 

8 MR. FLAMM: This is on page fifty

9 five of the policy and procedures manual. Item

10 five. The Chair of each Committee will present

11 the Board with the Committee's written votes

12 and recommendations during the material review

13 process at the NOSB meeting. The

14 recommendation should come in the form of a

15 motion which must be seconded by an NOSB

16 member to move forward. 

17 The process will follow Robert's

18 Rules of Order in which the Chair would open

19 the motion for discussion. The Chair shall

20 seek, if any Board members have conflicts of

21 interest. After discussion, Board members will

22 vote on the motion. That's -- 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Does that say

2 should or shall? In the form of a motion. 

3 MR. FLAMM: Should. Let's see --

4 yes. Should. Should come in the form of a

5 motion. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Should. Should is,

7 most of the time. Kevin? Whose has the mic on,

8 please. 

9 MR. ENGELBERT: But I think the

10 point remains, was, there was never a motion

11 made by the Committee. It was withdrawn. So

12 it's as if it was never on the table. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. That's,

14 that's all, as I say, water under the bridge.

15 The Chair agrees with the people who feel that

16 way, there was a motion to appeal the decision

17 of the Chair. It won, okay? We can continue on

18 this all day, or we can try to move forward.

19 We are right now in a situation of

20 looking either for Chairman of the Handling

21 Committee to proceed with what they have left

22 or for someone to make a motion that
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1 represents, which I believe is what was trying

2 to come forth, represents the opinion of the

3 minority opinion on corn steep liquor. 

4 I think We've had enough

5 discussion on all the other interpretations.

6 I'm waiting for someone to volunteer to come

7 forth with that motion. If not, I think it's

8 unfortunate that we've gone through the battle

9 we just did. John? 

10 MR. FOSTER: So, I'd like to have

11 the Board consider, I move that the Board

12 consider, the Crops Committee minority

13 position on corn steep liquor. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Rather than

15 doing all that, can we, how about if we just

16 have a motion to, for the classification of

17 corn steep liquor to be non-synthetic, which

18 is I think is what you're asking for you.

19 Could you restate that? 

20 MR. FOSTER: I sure can restate

21 that. I withdraw the first one. I would like

22 the Board to, I move that the Board consider
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1 corn steep liquor to be non-synthetic.

2 MR. GIACOMINI: To classify corn

3 steep liquor as non-synthetic. 

4 MR. FOSTER: Thank you for the

5 clarification. Classify corn steep liquor as

6 non-synthetic. 

7 MS. MIEDEMA: Second. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, it's been

9 moved and seconded to classify corn steep

10 liquor as nonsynthetic. Maker of the motion,

11 you have any further debate? 

12 MR. FOSTER: I think we've had lots

13 of information and debate already. I wouldn't

14 suggest we rehash that, from my point of view.

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

16 MS. ELLOR: How this came about

17 doesn't change my opinion about corn steep

18 liquor, but I feel, I feel it's a little

19 dishonorable, the way it came about. So. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

21 Jeff?

22 MR. MOYER: Yes, I just want to go
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1 on the record as saying that the way we've

2 always worked over the last, I know I've only

3 been here five years, so, I'm not as well

4 versed as I should be maybe, but the way We've

5 always worked in this Board has been that

6 We've allowed Committees to function to their

7 highest level by working on, on these

8 projects, bring forth the recommendation,

9 being able to take in public comment, which,

10 in this case, was substantial. 

11 There was some public comment that

12 was given that was very supportive of the

13 recommendation that's now been brought to the

14 floor. But much of that information has not

15 been substantiated by a third party or been

16 given, the Committee hasn't been given time to

17 review that, and even run those parts of the

18 decision process through the decision tree

19 that the materials group has put in front of

20 us and is still fine tuning as we go along. 

21 It's a very controversial

22 material. My experience over the last five
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1 years has been that when we allow Committees

2 to do their work, to function properly, to

3 bring information before the public and the

4 Board, take it back to Committee, work on it

5 again, and in the end, even though the timing

6 may not suit everybody, in the end, we have

7 always made the right decision. 

8 Yeast is a fine example. We had

9 some celebrations in the room today about

10 yeast. The yeast was brought forward first

11 meeting I was at. If we would have taken that

12 and accepted it as it was presented the first

13 year, it would have not been nearly as

14 positive, as strong a document, and as well

15 received among the entire community as it was

16 today. 

17 Realizing that it took longer than

18 some people would have liked, I understand

19 that. But in the end, we got it right, and

20 people are, in general, are very happy with

21 it. So I'm a little disappointed that the

22 Board has, has chosen to operate in this way
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1 on this issue. 

2 I feel very confident that, and,

3 and We've gotten feedback from the program

4 about some of our documentation that we have

5 as a Committee that is not up to par, would

6 not withstand public scrutiny. And that, with

7 a little bit of time, we'll get it right. 

8 And so I'm disappointed that We've

9 chosen to change the way the Board operates.

10 There's been other materials that were

11 withdrawn today as well. Those Committees are

12 shown the respect of other Board members and

13 Committee members and allowed to go back, work

14 on it. 

15 Because we know that in the end,

16 they're going to get it right. So I just

17 wanted to go on the record for that. Thank

18 you. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

20 MS. MIEDEMA: Thanks, Jeff. And

21 thank you, Tina, for your comments, and I've,

22 I've heard both of you in the last few minutes
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1 mention the respect and the collegiality and

2 the feeling of that having been breached in

3 some manner. 

4 And we do have a duty to one

5 another in our process. But we have a lot

6 bigger duty, and that's to the public, and in

7 very informal polling, there was a very strong

8 feeling among what felt like a majority of

9 this Board wanting to vote on this material,

10 and being privy to all the same information

11 that this Committee was privy to through

12 public comments and through the

13 recommendation. 

14 And so, while there were three

15 members of one Committee that were not ready

16 -- was it four? Four members of the Committee

17 that were not ready to vote, there was also a

18 number of people, as this process is showing

19 that feel quite prepared and clear and there

20 is a portion of the industry right now that is

21 in limbo. 

22 It's in a little bit of shambles,
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1 and we can cause true damage through our

2 interest in seeing our own, respecting our own

3 collegiality to such a degree that we do harm

4 to farmers and companies. 

5 And so we have duties that really

6 stretch beyond this table. And that's, that's

7 honorable as well. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

9 MR. MOYER: Thank you, Tracy. I

10 appreciate that, and I agree that our

11 responsibility to the community far exceeds

12 that of a collegiate relationship among Board

13 members. 

14 I think that when you have four

15 Committee members, the majority of the

16 Committee who was working on this document,

17 not convinced that we have it right, when we

18 have, when we're, the material that we're

19 working with, and we specifically asked the

20 program for a comment from the table about the

21 continued use of the material until this is

22 voted on and they, they gave us an affirmative
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1 nod from that, from the program table, stating

2 that there would be no disruption to the

3 industry in the interim, that the material

4 currently is being used, it would be continued

5 to be used until this Board makes a decision,

6 so there's no disruption in commerce or in the

7 industry. 

8 I think We're sending a strong

9 message to the industry that we are working on

10 this, we're working in their best interest as

11 well as consumers and farmers, and our goal is

12 not to disrupt the industry but to, as I said

13 before, to get it right so it's a strong

14 positive message to the industry to the

15 community and to farmers that we are working

16 in their best interest. Thank you. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina?

18 MS. HEINZE: I appreciate both the

19 perspectives of Jeff and Tracy. It does still

20 feel like we're trying to debate our previous

21 vote, however, versus the motion in front of

22 us. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

2 MS. ELLOR: Yes, I have to

3 apologize. Dishonorable was maybe too strong

4 a word. I didn't mean to impugn anybody in

5 particular. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Not by, because you

7 didn't, weren't specific, but. 

8 MS. ELLOR: All right. I was just

9 willing to, as part of the minority opinion,

10 and as part of the Crops Committee, I was very

11 willing to take it back and do more work on

12 it, but what we have in front of us now is a

13 vote to determine, to make a determination on

14 whether corn steep liquor, whether we feel

15 corn steep liquor is synthetic or

16 nonsynthetic. So that's --

17 MR. GIACOMINI: No, that's not

18 correct. 

19 MS. ELLOR: I'm sorry. That's

20 right. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: What we have, the

22 motion in front of us is a determination of
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1 whether it's non-synthetic. I want to be very

2 clear that unless that other motion comes

3 forward, a no vote on this should not be taken

4 by anyone as a motion that the people, the

5 person voting feels that it's synthetic.

6 They're two separate votes, the, this motion

7 on classifying corn steep liquor as non

8 synthetic is considered by the program as a

9 decisive vote. I certainly consider with the

10 passion on this that I would agree with that

11 on this point. 

12 It's going to, it needs, it

13 requires two thirds. And, but that does not

14 mean that the person is voting today that it

15 is synthetic. Those may feel like an exclusive

16 issues, but they're not. Katrina, did you have

17 more to say? 

18 MS. HEINZE: Not at this time. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

20 MR. MOYER: Follow up question,

21 then, to the, to the presenter of the motion.

22 Is it your intention that all corn steep
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1 liquor, no matter how manufactured or sourced,

2 is then going to be considered under your

3 vote, nonsynthetic? 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

5 MR. FOSTER: No. Only the corn

6 steep liquor that is produced in the way that

7 we've heard it described produced and

8 available for commercial --

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, that's not

10 what your motion says. Would there be any

11 interest in amending your motion? 

12 MR. FOSTER: Sure. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes. State your

14 point. 

15 MR. FELDMAN: He can amend his own

16 motion. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: No, he can't. But,

18 someone else can, and that's -- well, if,

19 would anyone like to do that. You're, your

20 point well taken. If anyone would like to make

21 clarity to this motion that is specific to wet

22 corn milling. More further debate? Katrina? 
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1 MS. HEINZE: I'd like to offer a

2 friendly amendment that -- not sure how to do

3 this. That we classify corn steep liquor from

4 the wet milling process be classified as

5 nonsynthetic. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Is that acceptable

7 by the maker of the motion and the person who

8 seconded?

9 MR. FOSTER: It is. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. I believe --

11 Jay? 

12 MR. FELDMAN: We need a second for

13 that motion and we have to have discussion. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: No, historically

15 We've, we accept friendly amendments by the

16 maker of the motion and the person who made

17 the second. So, it is -- that is an -- I'm

18 sorry? Oh. Is this extremely substantive to

19 the wording of this -- okay, could you please

20 come to a microphone, whether we accept that

21 or not, we need it on the record. 

22 MR. MARCURA: Thank you, Mr.
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1 Chairman, and thank you very much for the

2 opportunity. The proper wordology for this --

3 my name is Dragan Macura. I am the chief

4 science officer of AgroThrive Incorporated. 

5 What I see the motion being voted

6 on or considered to be voted on is, with the

7 exclusion of all kinds of other steep liquor

8 types that have been discussed and considered,

9 the one that seems to be clear, or that I

10 understand the, the Board seems to think is

11 clearly non synthetic, is the one that is

12 produced by the countercurrent steeping

13 process. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Thank you. 

15 PARTICIPANT: Traditional or

16 countercurrent steeping process. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Thank you. We

18 have a motion that is on the floor, we're back

19 up for debate. We just had comment calling for

20 a correction of that language. It's up to the

21 discretion of the Board for action. Joe? 

22 MR. SMILLIE: I would like to make
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1 a friendly amendment. Corn steep liquor, a

2 byproduct of the countercurrent steeping

3 process. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Is that acceptable

5 to the maker of the motion and the second? 

6 MR. FOSTER: It is. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? 

8 MS. MIEDEMA: Second. Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Just, just

10 for clarification on one thing, Jay, this was

11 a new process for me too. In the time that

12 I've done parliamentary procedure, the

13 friendly amendment was a bit new, but it's the

14 way they seem to have always done it, so. 

15 Just to clarify that. Okay. We are

16 now dealing with a motion, just to clarify, a

17 motion to classify corn steep liquor as a

18 byproduct of the countercurrent steeping

19 process as non-synthetic. Is that everyone's

20 understanding? Okay. Kevin? 

21 MR. ENGELBERT: Are we entertaining

22 new information under new information from
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1 this Board at the time, or is there no more

2 debate, simply a vote? 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: We are debating

4 this motion. 

5 MR. ENGELBERT: Then, I'd like

6 permission from the Chair to read an email

7 that I received last night from Brian Baker

8 stating his opinion. He was formerly with

9 OMRI, did a lot of work on the classification

10 of CSL, and he sent me an email stating his

11 position and reasoning on his, on OMRI's

12 decision for it to be CSL, or to be synthetic.

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Any reason why this

14 couldn't have been, wouldn't have, shouldn't

15 have been entered by Brian in public comment?

16 MR. ENGELBERT: He had intended to

17 come to the meeting and then things didn't

18 work out with his new job and he was unable to

19 attend, and by the time that he realized that

20 was going to happen, the period for public

21 comment had already closed. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: My opinion, my
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1 feeling, my gut feeling, is to say no. But I'm

2 concerned with any consequences that that may

3 bring. Anybody on the program want to give me

4 a one way or another on that? 

5 MR. NEAL: The decision is up to

6 the Chair. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Denied. Further

8 debate? Jay? 

9 MR. FELDMAN: Could I see a

10 definition of the countercurrent process, and

11 the resulting SO2 levels, please? 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: You can see, if we

13 can, I would like to get a definition of

14 countercurrent steeping process. I think that

15 would be in very order. But the levels of SO2

16 is not relevant to the classification, only

17 relevant to the placement. 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Followup on that? 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay. 

20 MR. FELDMAN: The --

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Excuse me, Jay.

22 Could, could we have someone try to get that
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1 definition? 

2 MR. FELDMAN: The -- excuse me.

3 The, I just think the Board should know that

4 the data that we receive from the technical

5 review and is contained in the Biss and Cogan

6 article that I hope everyone's ready by now.

7 It is all about the countercurrent

8 process. And, if the Board chooses to define

9 the countercurrent process, it leaves open the

10 door to a variety of methodologies, vis-a-vis

11 timing and amount of SO2. 

12 So that's why I asked for a

13 definition, because to just call the

14 countercurrent one type of countercurrent

15 leaves the door open to a range of approaches

16 and amounts of material applied, which is why

17 we wanted to bring this back to the Committee

18 to clarify and to get a third party assessment

19 as to what the range and variability was that

20 we could consider. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, let's see if

22 we can get that definition then. Do you have
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1 -- okay, go ahead. 

2 MR. MACURA: Mr. Chairman, the only

3 process that is used by this supplier of the

4 steep liquor which is currently being used in

5 industry for production of liquid organic

6 fertilizer is the one that has been described,

7 that has been provided, a flow chart for, with

8 the twelve steeping tanks and a very detailed

9 description of the process provided with it.

10 And this particular process is

11 being used by 99 -- I don't know anybody in

12 the industry that's using any other process

13 but this. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, so the best

15 you can do for a definition is this picture?

16 MR. MACURA: I can, I can verbalize

17 it if you need it verbalized. I can do it.

18 Otherwise, for you to --

19 MR. FELDMAN: Okay, so what's the

20 timing, where the levels, what's the timing?

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, so we have,

22 we have this chart, which I'm holding up for
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1 the record, is figure one from public comment

2 that was presented --

3 MR. MACURA: By AgroThrive,

4 Incorporated. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Regard, it's

6 figure one, countercurrent steeping of corn.

7 Thank you. So we are, we have that, we have

8 that presented as the definition. It's up to

9 each member of the Board to find the

10 satisfaction in that definition. 

11 MR. FELDMAN: For the record, Mr.

12 Chairman, that is not a definition. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: I didn't say it

14 was, Jay, I said it was what was presented as

15 the definition. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: Can you make a, can

17 you make a judgment as chair, which we could

18 choose to overrule, as to whether that was

19 the--

20 MR. GIACOMINI: I would love to

21 see, I would love to see it in words. I

22 understand your position on the detail. But
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1 what we have is a picture. Barry? 

2 MR. FLAMM: I'm wondering if

3 there's an OMRI representative in the room. I

4 can't tell from here, that could--

5 MR. GIACOMINI: What would we, what

6 would we be bringing forth from an OMRI--

7 MR. FLAMM: Perhaps there are more

8 current--

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, if we have an

10 OMRI representative in the room, could they

11 provide a more detailed definition of this

12 process? No. We don't seem to, I'm not

13 getting, we're not getting shaking, we're

14 getting negative shaking heads. In all

15 fairness, is there anyone in the room who

16 thinks they could provide with fair amount of

17 assurance and credibility a verbal definition18 -sir, you had your chance. You gave us a

19 picture. A verbal definition of this process.

20 I don't see none. So proceeding with debate.

21 Tracy? 

22 MS. MIEDEMA: In manufacturing, a
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1 process flow chart that has an accepted title

2 is considered a process, and so there's

3 nothing inappropriate in describing our

4 process through a flow chart. In fact, when

5 companies, industry is communicating with one

6 another, a process flow, in the same form as

7 we are looking at here, is considered

8 standard. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Arthur, did

10 you have something, someone said--you don't

11 have to, I was just told Arthur. 

12 MR. NEAL: This is just

13 observation. Observation seems to be a lot of

14 confusion. Uncomfortability with things kind

15 of being perceived as being made up on the

16 fly, just from the integrity standpoint, the

17 Board should just consider every decision,

18 every conversation, because it's going to be

19 for -- on the record, and this is a pretty

20 critical decision. So as you continue to

21 proceed, just think about the integrity of the

22 process. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: That's why I'm,

2 will, I said before and I will intend to say

3 again, this is a vote of the Board members'

4 best judgment today of whether this is non

5 synthetic or not. And that a no vote is not

6 saying that it--that they feel that it is

7 synthetic. It is just a affirmation of whether

8 today, they're going on the record that what

9 we have in front of us, that it is non

10 synthetic. Jay? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Could, could--

12 apologize, I'm not, I'm not following this.

13 If, if, if we vote that this is not synthetic14 -

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Correct. 

16 MR. FELDMAN: If we vote this as a

17 nonsynthetic--

18 MR. GIACOMINI: The motion is that

19 it's, to classify it non-synthetic. 

20 MR. FELDMAN: Correct. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. And if we do

22 what? 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Well, I'm trying to

2 understand--

3 MR. GIACOMINI: IF we pass or fail,

4 I'm going to, just wondering where you're

5 going--

6 MR. FELDMAN: No, I'm just trying

7 to understand, if, if, if that means that

8 implicitly, we're saying we're rejecting the

9 notion that this is a synthetic material. I

10 mean, we're calling this a non-synthetic. This

11 vote would be calling corn steep liquor--

12 MR. GIACOMINI: This vote, this

13 vote, vote would be calling this substance

14 under this process as we identified in the

15 recommendation, it would be calling, it would

16 be classifying it as non-synthetic. 

17 But I want to be very clear that

18 that--if a, a no vote is not saying that we

19 are not classifying it as synthetic. And it

20 takes a two third vote to pass. Any further

21 debate of anything new? Katrina? 

22 MS. HEINZE: I want to give
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1 everyone on the Board the best chance I can to

2 make the best decision, so I can but I do not

3 have to, would it be useful for me to briefly

4 summarize the definitions that we should be

5 using and some of the background on that in

6 deciding synthetic versus nonsynthetic? 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair feels that

8 we've been dealing a lot with nonsynthetic and

9 synthetic over the last four days and in

10 preparing for this meeting if a member of this

11 Board feels, and the, the chair would

12 discourage this, going that route. 

13 We were ahead of time, I have no

14 idea where we are right now. We were, we're a

15 half an hour behind our next break, and we are

16 now two substances behind. But if someone on

17 the Board insists that that be done, the chair

18 would, the chair would allow it. 

19 But I, so I'm waiting to hear if

20 anybody's going to absolutely request those

21 reading into the record. Further, further

22 comment? Jay. 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: I have a question for

2 the program. In terms of the vote that the,

3 the, the, the lack of action, or the previous

4 decision by the Committee to withdraw and, the

5 clarification that we received from Miles

6 earlier, on the impact that would have, or at

7 least the standing that corn steep liquor

8 would have, pending the Board having an

9 opportunity through the Committee process to

10 consider a recommendation, a Committee

11 recommendation. 

12 Miles made the statement that the

13 program would treat corn steep liquor as

14 nonsynthetic during the pendancy of our

15 consideration. I would want to ask the program

16 whether he believes that the Committee

17 deliberations, pending a vote by the full

18 Board, would cause economic dislocation to the

19 industry, to the organic industry. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. The board--I

21 believe, if the, what the program has said is

22 that until this is resolved, it's a
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1 continuing, it's under essentially a

2 continuing resolution to being allowed. 

3 If a, if this motion now does not

4 pass, and it goes back to the Committee, I

5 would assume that that would stay in, in

6 force. 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Because, we, we were

8 told that someone, I think it was you, Tracy,

9 said that a failure to act today would cause

10 economic dislocation in the organic industry.

11 We could check the transcript on that, but I

12 believe that's pretty accurate. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Well, what, what,

14 the interaction between the two of them and

15 also what Jeff said, it wouldn't stop corn

16 steep liquor from being allowed in organic.

17 That is not--that's one aspect of economic

18 impact. That does not say, that is not the

19 same to say that the indecision by this Board

20 does not create a economic impact for the

21 companies that are trying to develop and

22 contract products and everything else. That's
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1 possible.

2 MR. FELDMAN: Is, has that been

3 measured by a member of the Board who made

4 that claim? Do we have the economic and

5 essentiality data that we're required to have

6 in reviewing these materials? I mean, you're

7 making a claim that goes to process, not the

8 classification. 

9 So, it's, it's not even

10 technically within the realm. But we took in

11 our best judgment this issue of impact on

12 industry and we found, based on a position of

13 program and what we know about the marketplace

14 that we weren't causing economic dislocation.

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay--

16 MR. FELDMAN: So--

17 MR. GIACOMINI: The motion, the

18 motion before us is a motion to classify as

19 non-synthetic. The only, and whether that

20 passes or fails, it will be the same as the

21 continuing resolution, with, with maybe just

22 with, with more authority. If that fails, a
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1 continuing resolution continues. We don't have

2 hard data. We have anecdotal data from people

3 in the industry. Jeff? 

4 MR. MOYER: I think a simplified

5 version of what you're saying, Dan, is a no

6 vote is not a yes vote for, or, not calling it

7 synthetic. It's merely sending it back to

8 Committee. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: I'm not quite going

10 to say that because I don't know what someone

11 else is going to want to move next. So. Miles?

12 MR. MCEVOY: First of all, I want

13 to clarify that we have not determined that

14 corn steep liquor is a non-synthetic. That is

15 for the Board to determine, whether or not

16 it's a non-synthetic or synthetic, that's

17 exactly why we brought it to the Board. 

18 What we, what I said earlier is

19 that corn steep liquor has been allowed to be

20 used in organic crop production for many

21 years. The program will continue to allow it

22 to be used, but we have not made a
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1 determination of whether it's nonsynthetic or

2 synthetic. 

3 That's the role of the NOSB. The

4 second comment is, is that there's obviously

5 very good debate and discussion going on here,

6 but you're not going to be able to come out

7 with a clear decision that everyone's going to

8 feel confident about, and I would respectfully

9 ask John Foster to withdraw the motion. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: I am not sure of

11 the appropriateness of the program requesting

12 a withdrawal of the motion from the, from the

13 Board. And I apologize for any

14 mischaracterization. You certainly reworded it

15 more correctly. 

16 But it is, it is only a positive

17 vote, an affirmative vote of the two thirds

18 that would significantly affect your allowance

19 of the substance to be used in organic right

20 now, correct? And how you view it. 

21 MR. MCEVOY: I think you would need

22 to make both votes of--first vote would be to
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1 determine, if you had a two thirds vote to

2 determine that it's a non synthetic, and then

3 a two thirds vote to determine that it's not

4 a synthetic. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: I believe the two

6 thirds vote non synthetic passed, we wouldn't

7 have to do it. If it failed, we would need a

8 two third to decide on the synthetic side.

9 Hopefully, like I told Jeff, I don't know

10 what's going to be moved next. Jeff, is this

11 substantive to the question, or can we move

12 on, debate, or can we move on to the question.

13 MR. MOYER: I consider it

14 substantive, because I, as a Board member, I'm

15 going to ask John if he would be willing to

16 withdraw his motion. 

17 MR. FOSTER: Trying to get

18 recognition from the chair. I would withdraw

19 at this time, and apologize for the, the, the,

20 whatever bad feelings are there, and, and I

21 appreciate the honest, again, as I always

22 have, the very honest passionate debate going
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1 forward. Thank you. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. I just want

3 to remind everyone, we have, we have a new

4 policy, and I would suggest that the policy

5 Committee to work that policy into policy

6 procedure manual as clearly as possible. But

7 we have--we've changed a historical

8 perspective of dealing with matters from

9 Committee. 

10 Other than that, we are

11 withdrawing the motion on corn steep liquor.

12 We still have corn starch and whey protein. We

13 are an hour, more than an hour behind

14 schedule, and an hour since our, when we

15 scheduled for our previous break. 

16 So rather than continue I'm, I'm

17 going to call for a fifteen minute break.

18 Three o'clock. 

19 (Whereupon, the above entitled

20 matter went off the record at 2:41 p.m. and

21 returned at 3:02 p.m.) 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, folks. We are
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1 now an hour behind schedule. If we could

2 still, if we could proceed with the next item

3 from the handling Committee. 

4 MR. DEMURI: I think we started on

5 it a while ago, maybe yesterday sometime, or

6 a year ago. But, the next item is corn starch,

7 and I'll turn it back over to John. I think.

8 MR. FOSTER: You can trust me this

9 time. I think I am confident we'll make the

10 right decision on the prior, unnamed item

11 eventually and I do thank the Board and

12 particularly the chair for indulgence and

13 endurance in that last discussion. 

14 We have now to be re-listed on

15 205.606 corn starch, parenthetically native.

16 Without further annotation, I move that we re17 list corn starch as an agricultural item on

18 205.606. 

19 MR. DEMURI: I'll second. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: It's been moved and

21 seconded to re-list corn starch on 606, as,

22 as, as listed under the sunset 2012 review
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1 process. Maker of the motion, further debate?

2 MR. FOSTER: No. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate from

4 the Board? Okay. Seeing none, proceed to vote.

5 We're back, let me see where we are here on

6 our rotational. Jay? 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: I've got to line my

9 numbers up here, and--Katrina? 

10 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

12 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

14 MR. ENGELBERT: No. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

16 MS. HALL: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

18 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

20 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

22 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

2 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 

4 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

6 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

8 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

10 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair abstains. One

12 no, one abstained, twelve yes. Motion passes.

13 Next item, Mr. Chairman. 

14 MR. DEMURI: Okay. Our last item is

15 on 606, whey protein concentrate. I'd like to

16 move that the Board vote to re-list whey

17 protein concentrate to 205.606 of the National

18 List. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? Is there a

20 second? 

21 MS. HALL: Second. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Been moved and
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1 seconded to re-list whey protein--does that

2 have an annotation at all? No? 

3 MR. DEMURI: No, it doesn't. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. To re-list

5 whey protein on National List 606 under the

6 Sunset 2012 review process. Maker of the

7 motion, further debate? 

8 MR. DEMURI: Yes, for the record,

9 record, it's whey protein concentrate. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Whey protein

11 concentrate. Corrected. Any further comments,

12 Maker of the motion? Kevin? 

13 MR. ENGELBERT: Just one quick

14 question for the Committee. In, I understand

15 the procedures that must be done to take

16 something off 606 with sunset review, but

17 given the dramatic growth in organic dairy

18 since this was put on 606, is there any

19 indication that this is available sitting in

20 a warehouse, nobody's using it? Anything of

21 that sort at all? 

22 MR. DEMURI: No, there's no
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1 indication to that effect. Nobody made those

2 kind of comments and nobody has petitioned it,

3 which I would hope they would do. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina?

5 MS. HEINZE: We received no public

6 comments opposing the re-listing. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

8 Seeing none, proceed to vote. Katrina? 

9 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

11 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

13 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

15 MS. HALL: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

17 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

19 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

21 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 
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1 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

3 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

5 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

7 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

9 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

13 Zero no, fourteen yes. Passes. Does that

14 conclude the work of the Handling? 

15 MR. DEMURI: It does. Thank you,

16 Mr. Chairman. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Next on

18 the agenda, Materials Committee, Chairman

19 Katrina Heinze. 

20 MS. HEINZE: Okay. I'm going to

21 make my motion first and then I'll go for some

22 changes that the Committee met and voted on
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1 earlier today. I move that we accept -- that

2 the NOSB accept this document--is that the

3 correct motion? 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: I'm trying to

5 think, what we, how we worded these things in

6 the past. I'm sorry. It's been a long day,

7 folks. Yes. Accept the guidance and

8 recommendation--

9 MS. HEINZE: I move that, so I

10 withdraw what I just said, and thank you for

11 your patience. I move that the NOSB accept

12 this guidance document in full and forward it

13 to the program for action. Thank--I withdraw

14 that again. 

15 Thank you. Let me see if I can get

16 it right. I move that the NOSB accept the

17 guidance document, engineered nanomaterials

18 and organic production processing and

19 packaging, and forward it to the National

20 Organic Program for action. 

21 MR. SMILLIE: Second. 

22 MS. HEINZE: Thank you.
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: It has moved and

2 seconded for the NOSB to accept the

3 recommendation--John, read for me, please. 

4 MR. FOSTER: Sorry--the, the whole

5 thing, or just the--

6 MR. GIACOMINI: The title. The

7 title.

8 MR. FOSTER: Guidance document:

9 engineered nanomaterials in organic production

10 processing and packaging. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. 

12 MR. FOSTER: And the date of

October 28th 13 , 2010. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Been properly

15 moved and seconded. Further debate and, Madame

16 maker of the motion? 

17 MS. HEINZE: Okay. I just wanted to

18 highlight a little bit of what the Committee

19 wanted to do with this document. You know, we

20 have received very consistent feedback that no

21 one wants nano, engineered nanomaterials or

22 contamination from engineered nanomaterials in
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1 their organic food today. 

2 So we wanted to take action that

3 accomplished that goal, but created a path to

4 help us understand areas where we were still

5 a little bit confused. So, this document asks

6 the program to prohibit nanotechnology now and

7 then partner with us to answer the questions

8 on which we did not have answers. 

9 So we also received public comment

10 both written and here in person at this

11 meeting that a little bit more clarity on the

12 what we wanted to happen right now was

13 necessary. So I'm going to take you through

14 the changes that we've made to do that. 

15 So the very first thing we did is

16 we put a statement at the very top of our

17 recommendation that says the National Organic

18 Standards Board proposes that engineered

19 nanomaterials be prohibited from certified

20 organic products as expeditiously as possibly.

21 We respectfully request that the

22 National Organic Program take immediate
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1 actions to implement this document. And then,

2 Lisa, if you scroll down to the bottom of page

3 one, bottom of page one is where we talk about

4 our proposed definition for engineered

5 nanomaterials, which I'll read to you a little

6 bit later. 

7 And then says that we believe that

8 all substances that would fall under this

9 definition are synthetic and therefore are

10 prohibited in organic production and

11 processing. We added that, it used to say

12 should. Should be prohibited. 

13 And we appreciate the public

14 comment that we received at this meeting that

15 said, not should be, are. So we made this

16 stronger by saying are. Any questions about

17 that? Okay.

18 Then, if you scroll to page two,

19 another comment that we've received was that

20 since this document defines, has a definition

21 of engineered nanomaterials and asks that the

22 NOP accept that definition and anything that
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1 meets that definition as synthetic. 

2 So since they're synthetic,

3 therefore they are not allowed, what we missed

4 in this paragraph, what we said in this

5 paragraph is that they may have unique

6 properties that distinguish them from all

7 listings of the substances in a bulk form, and

8 that they are not allowed by a listing of the

9 bulk form of the substance on that National

10 List. 

11 It was perhaps not as obvious that

12 it was our intent that for things that are

13 classified as nonsynthetic, and therefore, you

14 know, today would be allowed in their bulk

15 form in crops and livestock, that the

16 engineered nano version of those bulk

17 nonsynthetics is synthetic, and therefore not

18 allowed. 

19 So, we wanted to make that more

20 clear as well. Finally, at the bottom of page

21 two, we had very good public, helpful public

22 comment from Jim Riddle, with some references
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1 to the final rule and OFPA with regards to

2 packaging. 

3 So, we are seeing clarification on

4 how 206.272B1 and OFPA 2111.A5 prohibits use

5 of engineered nanomaterials in packaging.

6 Okay. So, finally, Lisa, if you can scroll

7 down to our recommendation. 

8 So, we included in our Committee

9 vote bullet points because it is our

10 expectation that action be taken on this

11 document right away, and that engineered

12 nanomaterials be prohibited right now. 

13 And so, we included those specific

14 steps in our recommendation. So, I'm going to

15 highlight these and then open it for

16 discussion. So the Committee moved to accept

17 this document as a guidance recommendation and

18 specifically asking the NOP to accept as a

19 working definition, the definition for

20 engineered nanomaterials. 

21 Asking the NOP to disallow the

22 engineered nanomaterial form of substances
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1 currently on the National List, asking the NOP

2 to accept materials that meet this working

3 definition of engineered nanomaterials as

4 synthetic substances. 

5 We added, even when those same

6 materials in bulk form are non-synthetic, so

7 we want to be very clear that if a material

8 meets this definition, it is synthetic and it

9 is not allowed today in organic production or

10 handling. 

11 We are asking the NOP to accept

12 that engineered nanomaterials may have unique

13 properties that distinguish them from all

14 listings of the substances in a bulk form and

15 that they are not allowed by the listing of

16 the bulk form on the National List. 

17 We do in that paragraph talk about

18 further recommendations from the NOSB. Then

19 we're asking the NOP to work with the NOSB to

20 determine whether enforcement of restrictions

21 in primary packaging and food contact surfaces

22 is possible, practical, and legal. 
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1 Clearly, that's our desire in the

2 discussion, that those be enforced, that that

3 be restricted and enforced. And finally, we

4 ask the NOP to work with us to schedule a

5 symposium on a variety of topics on which we

6 felt we needed more information. 

7 You know, again, it was the

8 questions that we still had that we wanted

9 answers to, but it was very clear to everyone

10 on the Committee given all the public comment

11 that we wanted a prohibition now, and so this

12 was our way to accomplish that. Any questions?

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate on

14 this topic? Ready for the question? Any

15 conflict of interest? On the acceptance of

16 this document, engineered nanoparticles--we

17 got it. Okay. Those in favor, say aye. Wendy?

18 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

20 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

22 MS. HALL: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

2 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

4 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

6 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

8 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

10 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

12 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

14 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

16 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

20 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

22 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Anything
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1 else for, further Materials? Does that

2 conclude the work of the Materials Committee?

3

4 MS. HEINZE: It does complete the

5 work of the Materials Committee. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you.

7 Compliance, Accreditation, and Certification?

8 Joe Smillie? 

9 MR. SMILLIE: Yes, we had

10 originally two recommendations to present.

11 Based on preceding events and an attempt to

12 bring back the, my reading of Robert's Rules

13 of Order, and correct procedure and, and

14 correct actions, I would like to, I believe

15 that the correct procedure in the case of

16 withdrawal is to make a motion for one. 

17 So, I am going to, I would like to

18 make a motion to the Board to withdraw that

19 the CACC is recommending withdrawal of our

20 recommendation on the "made with" label. I'm

21 putting that forward as a motion. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: State your point. 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: I don't believe a

2 motion is necessary for a Committee to

3 withdraw it's recommendation. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: The Chair, in light

5 of the recent essential change in policy that

6 was voted on by this Board in the appeal the

7 decision of the chair, which presents the,

8 which makes the point that at some point in

9 time prior to this day, the Board feels that

10 the Committee has presented the document to

11 this Board, whether it's two days ago when we

12 discussed it or the posting or the opening of

13 this meeting, the Board Chairs overrule your

14 decision. 

15 MR. FELDMAN: Are you going to

16 invalidate previous decisions made by the

17 Board where the motion, there wasn't a motion

18 to withdraw? 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Those were made

20 before that change. At this time, and they're

21 just relevant, certainly just relevant to this

22 meeting. 
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1 MR. SMILLIE: Again, I'm not trying

2 to make it a necessity, I'm just making it a

3 courtesy. I'd like to, if there are members of

4 the Board who really want to vote on this, I

5 want to entertain that. Our recommendation--

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Excuse me, Mr.

7 maker of the motion, is there a second? 

8 MS. HALL: Second. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Been moved and

10 seconded for the Committee to withdraw the

11 motion on, made with, this is completely

12 unprecedented, but it seems that in light of

13 the way the Board wants to decide to interpret

14 their policy, it seems to be appropriate.

15 Didn't agree with the first decision, and I

16 don't agree where this is taking us, but I

17 don't feel the Chair has any alternative.

18 Maker of the motion, any further debate? Joe?

19 Tracy? 

20 MS. MIEDEMA: Since the Chair made

21 a comment, I'd like to follow up and say that

22 we did not make a de facto change to the point
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1 at which a --

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Ma'am, you're out

3 of order. We're on the debate, the discussion

4 of the withdrawal motion. If you want to

5 appeal the decision, if you want to make a

6 point of order on the Chair's action, that's

7 allowed, but right now what we're doing is

8 debate on the motion. 

9 MS. MIEDEMA: Certainly this is at

10 the pleasure of the Chair. No comments. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate on

12 the motion before the Board? Any conflict?

13 Seeing none, proceed to vote. Kevin? Motion to

14 withdraw. A yes vote is to withdraw the

15 motion. A no, failing vote would force the

16 Committee to bring forth this matter. 

17 MR. ENGELBERT: Abstain. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

19 MS. HALL: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

21 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 
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1 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

3 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

5 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

7 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

9 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

11 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

13 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

15 MR. FELDMAN: Abstain. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

17 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

19 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair abstains.

21 Zero no, three abstain, eleven yes. Motion

22 passes. Next item, Mr. Chairman. 
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1 MR. SMILLIE: The next item is the2 -

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Pardon? Mic. 

4 MR. SMILLIE: The next item is the

5 recommendation of the CACC on the limitations

6 of 205.101B, which we had a good debate on and

7 we'd like to move, I'd like John to take the

8 lead on this. 

9 MR. FOSTER: We have a

10 recommendation clarifying limitations to

11 section 205.101(b), recommended guidance

12 toward reducing fraud in the organic

marketplace. Dated here June 28th 13 , 2010. Like

14 to make a motion to--

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Move to accept this

16 recommendation, the recommendation on--

17 MR. FOSTER: Sorry. I'd like to, I

18 move that the Board accept this

19 recommendation. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Title? 

21 MR. FOSTER: Sorry. The

22 recommendation clarifying limitations on
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1 section 205.101B, Recommended Guidance Toward

2 Reducing Fraud in the Organic Marketplace,

June 28th 3 , 2010. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? 

5 MR. DEMURI: Second. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: It's been moved and

7 seconded to accept the recommendation on

8 limitations of 101B. Maker of the motion?

9 John? Further debate? 

10 MR. FOSTER: No. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate on

12 this item? Kevin? 

13 MR. ENGELBERT: Could you spell

14 out, John, exactly what change are going to be

15 made in this, 201.101B? 

16 MR. FOSTER: Because the good

17 discussion we had clarification about,

18 basically the limitations on the limitations,

19 that the definitions of handle and handling

20 operation, and handler that exclude, actually

21 exclude from the exclusion, the direct farm to

22 processor transport that was discussed in the-
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1 -I'm sorry, discussed prior.

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Further--anything

3 else? Katrina? 

4 MS. HEINZE: My understanding is,

5 the Committee is not recommending any changes

6 to 101B, but only asking the program to better

7 clarify who qualifies under 101B, to address

8 some of the things that we've discussed. Is

9 that correct? So there's no Rule change, it's

10 just a request to the program, is that

11 correct? 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? Oh--

13 MR. MOYER: I defer to John. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

15 MR. FOSTER: Sorry. Yes. I'm a

16 little lightheaded at the moment. Yes, no

17 change to this recommendation, but certainly

18 clarity provided to the program that it was

19 not our intention to, to include the, like I

20 said, the direct farmer to processor transport

21 that, that was discussed at the prior meeting.

22 I'm sorry, I don't know how to
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1 really encapsulate that. But it's, it was, as

2 I said on our discussions on Tuesday, it

3 wasn't the intent to cover, that this be

4 covered. I really apologize. Wasn't our intent

5 to cover anything that was of concern in our

6 discussion on Tuesday. 

7 That, it was only to hopefully

8 direct the program to clarify for the general

9 public what was included under the kinds of

10 activities that were included under 101B and

11 those that weren't. So, no new rule changes

12 recommended here. 

13 We're just asking the NOP to

14 provide clarity on the kinds of activities

15 that are covered by 101B, and those that

16 aren't covered by 101B. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? Joe. 

18 MR. SMILLIE: No. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

20 MR. ENGELBERT: Thank you. I, I was

21 under the impression that there would be some

22 recommended wording changes on behalf of the
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1 program. That's why I asked. I thought that

2 was the purpose of putting it out, getting

3 public comment and then coming back with a,

4 with a recommended word change to help with

5 that clarification. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

7 MR. FOSTER: Yes. The, with the

8 clarity that we're merely asking the program

9 to clarify what's already in regulation, that

10 we, you know, we trust the program to make

11 that determination, and accordingly, wouldn't

12 extend anything beyond where it's already in

13 place, just perhaps not closely scrutinized by

14 the industry at this time. Does that help? 

15 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

17 MR. FELDMAN: I apologize if you

18 mentioned this the day before yesterday. Did,

19 did you consult with NOP staff on this, and

20 determine the necessity for this document? Did

21 you consult with NOP on this? 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Who was on your
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1 Committee? Was, was that part of your

2 discussion, the NOP staff that was on your

3 Committee? 

4 MR. FOSTER: See, see, see, correct

5 me if I'm wrong. We don't have a standard, we

6 don't have a --

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Oh, okay. 

8 MR. FOSTER: -- an ongoing liaison.

9 In our Committee calls. I, I would say that in

10 general terms, this discussion had come up

11 with, with various staff, but, not real

12 details, but just general principles. 

13 And that, I suspect the comments

14 made by program on Tuesday would be indicative

15 of their perspective. I don't want to speak

16 for them, but I believe they made the comments

17 that they wanted to. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Program? 

19 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, this will be very

20 helpful. As we stated previously, we are

21 working on guidance in this area to clarify

22 who needs to be certified and who doesn't,
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1 who's excluded, who's not. This is an area

2 that we get a lot of complains about. 

3 There's a lot, much broader

4 guidance that we're looking at in this area,

5 in terms of clarifying the provisions of 101B

6 and this will certainly be very helpful to

7 give the program the feeling, the sentiment of

8 the Board in regards to who's included in the

9 exclusions and who should be certified.

10 If there are parts of the

11 recommendation that, that you would like to

12 have certified that are currently excluded, we

13 will respond back to the program that that's

14 the case, and then you could potentially

15 recommend a rule change. But, this is going to

16 be very helpful for us to develop our guidance

17 in this area. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate? I

19 have to be very careful how I say this, just

20 as I love babies and I hate fraud, I, I'm just

21 very concerned that this document at this

22 time, I very much respect the statement from
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1 Miles from the program, and I always like, you

2 know, full proper enforcement. 

3 And, but, there's just a feeling

4 here that I get when I read this document

5 that, without having any better way to say it,

6 throwing this into the realm of the age of

7 enforcement that a lot, much more zeal is

8 going to come to this document than may

9 otherwise have been. 

10 And, in very trying economic times

11 for a lot of our producers, I think this could

12 have a fairly significant economic impact, and

13 I just question the appropriateness of that.

14 Again, I love babies and I hate fraud but I

15 question that direction, wisdom, whatever.

16 Joe? 

17 MR. SMILLIE: It's really about

18 brokers, it's not about farmers. It's not

19 about the hay farmer who sells the hay or the

20 farmer who buys the hay. It's about the mask,

21 or the possible masks that brokers use to

22 possibly add in conventional hay, or, fill in
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1 the blank, on this. 

2 So, that's what the document is

3 directed towards, to make sure that that, that

4 problem, to whatever extent it exists, gets

5 eliminated. There have been discussions with

6 the program about it, and, you know, we felt

7 it was important to really get some

8 clarification of a guidance document. 

9 We don't intend that, Dan, now I

10 understand--

11 MR. GIACOMINI: I understand, and I

12 don't know how, for instance, hay is dealt

13 with in other parts of the country. But I know

14 in my part of the country, no broker is ever

15 interested in revealing to the person, the

16 producer that is buying that hay, what his

17 markup is, or how much goes towards freight.

18 He, the farmer doesn't want to

19 write three checks. He wants to write one. He

20 writes one to the broker, and by this

21 definition, that makes the broker taking

22 title, it seems, and I'm very concerned where
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1 it's out in the field, it gets picked up in a

2 truck that the broker doesn't even own, that's

3 a subcontract.

4 I just don't know how far this is

5 going to be. The zeal of the enforcement of

6 this, I'm just concerned with. I respect the

7 program's statement when they say this will be

8 helpful. I respect that, I hope its not, like

9 I say, too much of an, become too much of an

10 economic burden due to excessive enforcement.

11 Kevin? 

12 MR. ENGELBERT: I share your

13 concerns, to a degree, but fraud and people

14 that are cheating are, you know, that has to

15 be stopped. And it's unfortunate there's a

16 price that someone will have to pay, but if it

17 has to be paid, then, then that's the way,

18 that's the way it should be. 

19 I mean, we've been, the program's

20 notified. There are problems, and we believe

21 that, you know, I agree, I think the

22 Committee's come up with the best, a good
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1 guidance and we'll see, like they said, we'll

2 see what happens. And, if the rule change has

3 to be recommended, then, then that'll be the

4 next step. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: A no vote is not

6 supporting fraud. I just want to make that

7 clear. Further debate? 

8 MR. ENGELBERT: Are you sure? 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: My no vote would

10 not be supporting fraud. Please. Further

11 debate? Ready for the question. Jennifer? 

12 MS. HALL: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

14 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

16 MS. ELLOR: Abstain. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

18 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

20 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

2 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

4 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

8 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

10 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

12 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

14 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes no. One

16 no, one abstain, twelve yes. Motion passes. 

17 MR. SMILLIE: That concludes the

18 CACC report, Mr. Chair. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. I think

20 we go, let's go through--I don't even know

21 where we are in compared to our scheduled

22 breaks. Let's see how we proceed, Mr.
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1 Chairman, and, Barry, Chairman of the Policy,

2 let's see how we go. 

3 MR. FLAMM: Okay. Our first

4 recommendation is, is the establishing of ad

5 hoc committees, and Steve will present that.

6 And also, we expect a friendly amendment to

7 our recommendation. 

8 MR. DEMURI: Well, I presented it a

9 couple days ago, so I'd just like to make a

10 motion that the Board vote to accept this

11 Policy Development Committee recommendation

12 for the formation of ad hoc committees, dated

July 22nd 13 , 2010. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? Is there a

15 second? 

16 MR. FLAMM: Second. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Who said, who did

18 that? Barry. Moved and seconded to accept the

19 recommendation of the Policy Committee on ad

20 hoc committees. Maker of the motion, any

21 further debate? Any other debate? I would like

22 to offer an amendment. 
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1 On page, the last page of the

2 recommendation, under the section of ad hoc

3 Committees--are you there, Lisa--to delete the

4 last sentence and replace it with ad hoc

5 committees can be dissolved at the

6 recommendation of the NOSB chairperson with

7 approval of the Executive Committee, period.

8 An ad hoc committee chairperson is

9 a nonvoting member of the Executive Committee.

10 Okay. To replace, delete the last sentence.

11 Okay. Ad hoc committees can be dissolved at

12 the recommendation of the NOSB Chairperson

13 with the approval of the Executive Committee,

14 period. 

15 That puts that in line with the

16 language of the formation. And the next

17 sentence, ad hoc committee chairperson, or the

18 ad hoc committee chairperson, is a non voting

19 member of the Executive Committee. That

20 provides for the informational transition for

21 the, for the rest of the Board. 

22 Did we get that? Okay. All right.
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1 So, that was an amendment. Is there a second,

2 or to, accepted by the maker of the motion? 

3 MR. FLAMM: We accept the-- 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

5 MR. FLAMM: --as a friendly motion.

6 MR. GIACOMINI: The first sentence

7 is to bring it in line with the language of

8 the formation at the beginning of the

9 paragraph. The second sentence is to provide

10 the chairperson of the ad hoc committee to be

11 part of the Executive Committee, interact with

12 transition of information, but as a non voting

13 member and not bring in any question of

14 whether, if that person is the Chairman of

15 another committee, the, whether he has two

16 votes. 

17 MR. DEMURI: Yes, I can accept

18 that. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Accepted as a

20 friendly amendment. Okay. Katrina? 

21 MS. HEINZE: As the most recent

22 chair of a ad hoc committee, I really support
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1 this change. It was not clear to me for quite

2 a bit that I needed to be at the Executive

3 Committee calls. So formalizing this I think

4 will be helpful. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: You were the

6 chairman of a joint committee. It wasn't in

7 here as an ad hoc Committee. And it wasn't the

8 policy at this, at that time that you were

9 part of that.

10 MS. HEINZE: Hence why I support

11 adding this. It will clarify it for people in

12 the future who find themselves in the same

13 position that I was, so this was very helpful

14 and I support it. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer?

16 MS. HALL: On the point of the

17 second sentence, if it so happened that the ad

18 hoc committee chairperson was already a part

19 of the Executive Committee, would they still

20 not vote? 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: They would still be

22 part of the Executive Committee in their other
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1 capacity. 

2 MS. HALL: All right. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: They wouldn't get

4 two votes. Is that clear with everyone? Does

5 that make sense, does that need to be worded

6 differently? Katrina? 

7 MS. HEINZE: I think Jennifer has a

8 very good point. Perhaps we could change it to

9 the ad hoc committee chairperson would not

10 vote on the Executive Committee in their

11 capacity as ad hoc committee chairperson. 

12 Here, it, the sentence as written13 -

14 MR. GIACOMINI: How about, instead

15 of all that, just go to the beginning of the

16 sentence and say the position of--would that

17 be reasonable? Instead of what Lisa's doing

18 there? 

19 MS. HEINZE: Sure. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: I think. Lisa, did

21 you get that? Can you go back to where you

22 were and just position of? See if that fits?
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1 Okay. Is that--I agree with that, and Barry

2 and Jay? 

3 MR. DEMURI: So that was a friendly

4 amendment to your friendly amendment? 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: This was accepted,

6 it was no longer the amendment, it was the

7 motion. Barry? You accept that? No--accept

8 that. Okay. Any further debate on this issue?

9 As the chair, one of the most difficult things

10 I did was trying to structure committee

11 amendment, committee appointments within the

12 structure of a joint committee where the fact

13 that someone, you're putting someone on one

14 committee automatically puts them on two. It

15 makes it very -- made a very difficult thing

16 to do to make the work load of the Board

17 equitable, especially in the year of sunset

18 where we were trying to load the Material

19 Committees as much as possible. So, any

20 further debate? I don't know if there's

21 possibility for any conflict but I will ask

22 for it anyway. Hearing none. Line up my
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1 sheets. Jeff? 

2 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina?

4 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

6 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

8 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

10 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

12 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

14 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

16 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

20 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

22 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

2 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

4 MS. HALL: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

6 Zero no. Fourteen yes. Motion passes. Next

7 item, please. 

8 MR. FLAMM: I would like to move

9 that the Board adopt clarification and

10 updating of section five in the policy and

11 procedure manual, which is direction on NOSB

NOP collaboration process. Dated July 27 th 12

13 2010. 

14 MR. ENGELBERT: I'll second. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Moved and seconded

16 to accept the NOSB collaboration document.

17 Maker of the motion, further debate? 

18 MR. FLAMM: We, we received no

19 further comments on the proposal, so. I think

20 we're probably ready for a vote. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Any further debate?

22 Hearing none. Tina? 
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1 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 

3 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

5 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

7 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

9 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

11 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

13 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

15 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

17 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

19 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

21 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 
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1 MS. HALL: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

3 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

5 Zero no, fourteen in favor. Motion passes.

6 Next item, please. 

7 MR. FLAMM: Our next recommendation

8 involves some proposed revisions in the sunset

9 policy. We've had a rather vigorous debate on

10 that, and We've made some changes in committee

11 which Jay will explain what they are, and, and

12 answer your questions. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes, we need to

14 make a--well, you just transferring it over to

15 him for the authority, Jay, you can make the

16 motion and then detail the changes as you,

17 that you, in the presented document. 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Thanks, Barry.

19 Thanks, Dan. On behalf of the Policy

20 Development Committee, I'd like to introduce

21 a motion to amend the sunset review process

22 policy proposal as adopted by the Committee on
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August 28th 1 , 2010. And, updated--you don't

2 have that? Okay. So, can we, and, as updated,

3 as--

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Does she not have

5 that in, on a disk? Do you have it on a disk,

6 anywhere, Jay? You don't have it on--

7 MR. FELDMAN: It's pretty simple. I

8 think she can just highlight it. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. How about,

10 we're, we're at a place where we can take--how

11 about if we take a break and give Lisa a

12 chance to get this in. Fifteen minutes. To--

13 four o'clock. 

14 (Whereupon, the above entitled

15 matter went off the record at 3:46 p.m. and

16 resumed at 4:02 p.m.) 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: --are significantly

18 behind schedule. People have flights, people

19 have things scheduled for this evening. No one

20 planned us to be going this late, I don't

21 think. Anybody--any conversations, people in

22 the audience, please find your seats, or, if
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1 you have a conversation, please take it

2 outside. 

3 Can the gallery please take the

4 conversations outside, please? Jay and Lisa,

5 are we ready to proceed with sunset on the

6 screen, which I can't see? 

7 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Thank you.

8 Again, on behalf of the Policy and Development

9 Committee, I'm introducing a motion here to

10 amend the sunset process in accordance with

the August 28 th 11 , 2010 document as amended on

12 the screen. Can I get a second for that? 

13 MS. HEINZE: Second. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. So, as you

15 know, just to recap, we received some really

16 strong comments, not that many, but very

17 insightful and helpful. Nine comments. 

18 One of the major themes running

19 through the comments, I think, at least eight

20 out of the ten, concurred with the Committee

21 that we should try to incorporate annotations

22 into the sunset process, but we should do that
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1 in a way that ensures public, the public's

2 ability to participate in the process of

3 annotation. 

4 In that spirit, then, we, it was

5 pointed out to us that the last sentence in

6 four precluded possible public input insofar

7 as it allows annotations to be developed at

8 the Board meeting and presented as amendments

9 to the Board decision making process. 

10 Distinct from the proposal coming

11 out of Committee, and it was felt that that

12 would preclude the ability of the public to

13 participate in the annotation fully, so that

14 Committee is proposing to delete that last

15 sentence of four. 

16 So that, what that leaves us with

17 is a process whereby the Committee, the NOSB

18 Committee conducting sunset, could do one of

19 two things. It could adopt a simple motion to

20 remove or renew the listing of the substance.

21 I'm reading a number, in section four, here.

22 Or, it could adopt a motion to renew,
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1 accompanied by an Amendment containing the

2 addition of an annotation to the listing. 

3 That would then go out to public

4 comment, regarding the addition of the

5 annotation, the Committee will in a two step

6 process first vote on the Amendment with the

7 annotation and then the motion to renew. 

8 So, depending on that, how that

9 plays out, after that process is complete at

10 the Committee level, it would go out, it would

11 go out to comment. Be published in the Federal

12 register. So, if that Amendment prevails in

13 Committee, then the Board in consideration of

14 the Committee decision would, will vote first

15 on the Amendment to annotate, and then the

16 motion to renew. 

17 So, it's, again, it's the same two

18 step process so that everybody has an

19 opportunity to weigh in on the annotation and

20 then a separate vote on the decision to move

21 forward with a re-listing or a removal from

22 the list. 
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1 And, after that, basically the

2 process is the same. We eliminated seven here,

3 which was a process that we had originally

4 viewed as a failsafe process so that if in

5 fact the Board decided to annotate and

6 clearance took a really long time, it could

7 come back to us prior to the expiration of the

8 sunset. 

9 But, it was felt by the program, I

10 don't want to put words in the program's

11 mouth, but we interpreted the program's

12 response to that as unnecessary and so then

13 we, we actually sought guidance from the

14 program and we were told that this was in

15 total, with these amendments, a workable

16 process that would give the program in, under

17 normal situations, the, the, the, the proper

18 amount of time to work this thing through the

19 process. 

20 Committee members, did I miss

21 anything? Did I leave anything out that--okay.

22 Thank you. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

2 MS. HEINZE: I very much appreciate

3 the Committee taking the feedback that you

4 heard during this week. I'm very pleased with

5 the changes, I just have one question. The

6 sentence at the end of number four, I guess

7 the last two sentences regarding the addition

8 of an annotation, the Committee will, in a two

9 step process, first vote on the amendment with

10 the annotation then on the motion to renew. 

11 And then, the motion to renew, in,

12 in the following sentence. My question is the

13 same. It, are we vote, are you saying that the

14 Board would vote, or the, the Committee and

15 then the Board would vote on a motion to renew

16 the existing listing? 

17 Or, the listing with the

18 annotation change? It's not clear to me from

19 your sentence. I, I think, I think I

20 understand what your intent is, it's just not

21 clear to me from the sentence. 

22 MR. FELDMAN: The, the intent is to
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1 have a two step process where the Committee

2 first votes on any proposed annotations. That

3 vote would inform the second vote, which would

4 be the proposal to renew with an annotation or

5 a proposal to renew without an annotation, or

6 a proposal to remove, that would be the second

7 step, those would be the three choices in the

8 second step. 

9 So, it's, you know, it gives

10 people who believe that the continued use of

11 a material without an annotation is

12 unacceptable. It gives them the opportunity to

13 vote--

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Excuse me. Jay,

15 when you say without an annotation, you need

16 an annotation change. 

17 MR. FELDMAN: I'm sorry. Without an

18 annotation change. Sorry. Thank you for the

19 clarification. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Didn't mean

21 to interrupt, I just wanted to get that clear.

22 Katrina? 
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1 MS. HEINZE: That wasn't my--that's

2 not what I was expecting, but I was looking at

3 the rest of the Board, I if I was the only

4 one, I, I was expecting that the second vote

5 would be on the motion to renew the current

6 listing, similar to what we did with hops. Did

7 I, did I misinterpret what you just said, Jay?

8 MR. FELDMAN: I think, I'm not sure

9 hops is a good example, because hops, there's

10 a gap period there, it sounded like, between

11 when the 606 would phase out and the sunset

12 would phase out. So we need, we had to cover

13 a gap, so that's why we had to do the renewal.

14 In this case, we're assuming that

15 if we choose to amend an annotation--I guess

16 we could add, we could add an annotation, too.

17 I mean, that would be our prerogative here. We

18 would then vote after the adoption of that

19 annotation or that change to an annotation, we

20 would then offer the Committee an opportunity

21 to vote that package, to move it forward with

22 the annotation, up or down. 
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1 So, it doesn't, it doesn't

2 prejudge the, the decision on the specifics of

3 the annotation. It doesn't, it enables a full

4 and informed, hopefully, discussion on whether

5 any limitations need to be added to that

6 listing, and then a separate vote would be

7 taken on that decision, on the decision to

8 move it forward with a request to re-list or

9 remove. 

10 And so, one vote, the first vote

11 informs the second vote. If somebody else can

12 help me out here, if that's not clear, I-- 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? Katrina. 

14 MS. HEINZE: I'm sorry. I'm still

15 confused. So, perhaps I could--I'm going to

16 make up an example and then you can tell me if

17 I'm understanding you correctly. 

18 So what I'm hearing is that we

19 have material A on the list with no

20 annotation. Then, through the sunset process,

21 the committee reviewing that material for re22 listing identifies that it needs an
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1 annotation. 

2 So, they are going to vote on an,

3 in this case, an addition and an annotation

4 that would say material A extracted without

5 synthetic solvents, and, and that passes. Then

6 the second vote that you have up here is the

7 second vote on re-listing material A, or is

8 the second vote on re-listing material A

9 extracted without synthetic solvents? 

10 MR. FELDMAN: The latter. 

11 MS. HEINZE: That's not what I was

12 expecting. I was expecting that it would be

13 similar to what we did with yeast, that the

14 second vote would be to re-list the existing

15 listing so that, that would be there as a

16 failsafe for the program as they work the

17 annotation change through the system. 

18 MR. FELDMAN: Could, could we ask

19 the program if that's how they interpreted it?

20 I mean--

21 MR. GIACOMINI: That's how I

22 interpreted it. 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Right. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Program? I don't

3 know if you've had time to digest this. I

4 mean, we, yes. But I certainly see it the same

5 way that, you know--

6 MR. FELDMAN: While they're looking

7 at that, I can tell you that the, the idea was

8 to give the program a package, essentially one

9 package, and if the package included a change

10 in annotation or a new annotation--

11 MR. GIACOMINI: But it gives them a

12 package that does not reassert the existing

13 listing. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: Right. I mean, we

15 could, we could either ask the program to

16 remove it, or we could ask the program to--

17 MR. GIACOMINI: No, just involved,

18 regarding the annotation change, though.

19 That's the debate. That's the--

20 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, that's the

21 package. They would get, they would get the,

22 so we'd like to move this ahead with an
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1 annotation. That would be the second vote. Do

2 we want to move this ahead with the annotation

3 that the Committee just adopted. 

4 And they, so the program would get

5 one package and the question we had for the

6 program is, is this logistically possible and

7 feasible within the time constraints and all

8 that. And, I though the answer we got back was

9 yes. Right? Wasn't that--

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

11 MS. HEINZE: I'll finish and then

12 stay out of it for a while. I would

13 respectfully ask that it, if that was your

14 intention, that you clarify in, in these two

15 sentences, because that would effect my

16 perspective on this recommendation. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

18 MR. SMILLIE: Yes, I think I'm

19 understanding what Katrina's saying. And

20 that's, was my, I thought that's what we asked

21 for the change to be, is that the set, the

22 first vote is the, the material with the
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1 annotation, and the second vote is to re-list

2 the material as it was in the case that the

3 program had a problem with the annotation, so

4 that way, we'd have a failsafe and, you know,

5 agreed, our intent was the annotation, but if

6 for whatever reason the annotation didn't

7 work, then we wouldn't lose the material. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

9 MR. MOYER: I would just add to

10 that, Joe, it would be a failsafe to re-list

11 it, but it's also, gives the Board the

12 opportunity to let it sunset if the annotation

13 isn't accepted. So that second vote could go

14 either way. 

15 Yes, so, if somebody, for example,

16 wanted only would, would vote to re-list if

17 the annotation was there, they have that

18 choice. If the annotation isn't there they

19 have the opportunity to let it sunset or

20 failsafe it. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

22 MR. SMILLIE: I agree, they have
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1 their, that's the voting choice. But the, the

2 choice is to re-list as it. That's what I

3 understood it to be. But it sounds like it's

4 either with annotation, or--I don't understand

5 why there's two votes on, on--

6 MR. FELDMAN: Because--if, if in

7 fact the annotation fails, someone could

8 conceivably on that Committee could say, ooh,

9 I don't think that, as is, as it, without the

10 annotation should go forward, as a renewal. So

11 they would have the opportunity to vote it

12 down, to vote against it. Right. 

13 But, again, I, it was our feeling

14 that, to streamline this, the program, if the

15 program received a package, that is, either

16 two scenarios, or three, actually--one, an up

17 or down, an up vote, renewal vote without

18 anything, that's one scenario. 

19 Two, a de-listing. Or three, a

20 renewal with an amended annotation. So they

21 would get either of those three scenarios.

22 And, and it all hinges on whether the, the
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1 program thinks there's enough time to process

2 that annotation before the sunset expires, or

3 before the period of the, before it sunsets.

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? Tracy? 

5 MS. MIEDEMA: My question, my

6 question is how we would--my question is how

7 this would be listed in the Federal register

8 and presume that this, these scenarios kind of

9 trace those a, b, or c need to be vetted for

10 public comment. That's the reason we're having

11 this discussion right now. 

12 And, whether there's any precedent

13 in the Federal register for those sorts of

14 hey, here's a material that could break three

15 different ways, please comment. Is that not

16 what we're talking about here? 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Our intent is that we

18 publish in the Federal register one of those

19 three options. We either publish a proposal to

20 re-list as, to re-list as is, to de-list, or

21 to list and re-list with an amended

22 annotation, or a new annotation. 
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1 So, we only publish one of those,

2 but then, then we get a, have a, hope, get

3 some good debate among the Board, and then the

4 Board would go through a similar process to

5 decide whether it wanted to annotate--the only

6 reason the Board would need a two step process

7 is if we came forward from the Committee level

8 with a re-listing proposal with an annotation.

9 Then, the Board also would have

10 the opportunity--

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Wait, wait. We're

12 not, we're not coming forth with that. What

13 we're coming forth with is a recommendation to

14 change the annotation, and then if that

15 passes, incorporate that language into the

16 sunset re-listing document, is what I hear

17 that you're saying that you're wanting to do.

18 So, it's not that the annotation

19 change is done within the sunset document, but

20 what you're looking to do is, as we did in

21 some other cases today, or as We've done in

22 the past with livestock matters, is that we
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1 voted on a change in the annotation. 

2 You're bringing that changed

3 annotation into the sunset document, which if

4 there's a hiccup in the rule making process,

5 does not give the program the authority to re6 list that substance as it currently exists. 

7 That's the effect of this

8 document. And the way that you've included

9 here. So, that, that would be the consequence.

10 So, Katrina? 

11 MS. HEINZE: I'm going to go back

12 to my original request. It is not clear to me

13 which of those two choices you are proposing

14 in number four, so I would ask that after the

15 words on the motion to renew, you add either

16 the existing listing or the listing with the

17 annotation change so it's clearer what we're

18 voting on. 

19 And, I guess that my final though

20 ton this is I support this, so, I support if,

21 I support it if it's motion to renew with the

22 existing listing. Just so--I, no. Jay just
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1 asked me would I support it with on the motion

2 to renew with the annotation change. 

3 I would, my personal opinion

4 speaking only for myself, I think, I would

5 like to see it happen the way we did with

6 yeast. That we had one vote on the annotation

7 change and then a second vote on the original

8 listing, which is only there for the two

9 purposes we've talked about, either a failsafe

10 or an opportunity for someone to say that they

11 are, are not comfortable with the existing

12 listing without the annotation change. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: I, I, for me, I

14 think I agree with Katrina completely. I think

15 there might be a way, either cutting it off

16 after comments or cutting it off after

17 substance and reword the one, that I might be

18 able to go along with this. 

19 But, ultimately, I, I kind of

20 disagree--I, I'd like to do that, if we can

21 get it to do that. I still think the problem

22 with the document is that it links the change
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1 in the annotation that is discovered during

2 the time of the sunset review process, with

3 the sunset review recommendation, which I

4 believe is a mistake. 

5 And, I think that it's far better

6 to be fixed in our process discussions that

7 are on tap for the material Committee to fix

8 the petition process and make it clear within

9 our procedures how to bring forth

10 recommendations to, if, if we have an

11 annotation change, that the Board votes in,

12 and it, and then has to re-list an existing

13 listing that people don't really like anymore,

14 but for continuance of the program--of the

15 industry, they vote to re-list that but then

16 the annotation change fails, that we have the

17 ability as a Board to come back with the

18 motion to remove or retain.

19 But, but it all comes back for me

20 to the same thing. The petition process is

21 broken, but, I think, and I think tying

22 annotation changes to sunset recommendations
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1 is a mistake that will yield a train wreck of

2 biblical proportions to the industry. 

3 I think, I think it could be huge,

4 I really do, Jay. I'm not just using

5 hyperbole. If it's the wrong substance--

6 MR. FELDMAN: Okay, well that's

7 not, the, obviously that's not the intent. We

8 don't want to inadvertently allow something to

9 de-list-- 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: If we had only, as

11 an example, Jay, Jay--I just want to make one

12 example. If we had only reasserted in our

13 sunset documents the amendments, the change of

14 annotations that we had done to lecithin, the

15 change in annotation to lecithin has not gone

16 through. If that is the only thing that we had

17 reasserted for the program to re-list, they

18 could not re-list what we have now, and we

19 would lose all use of lecithin from 606. Yes,

20 I'm sorry--point of order. 

21 MS. HEINZE: I'd like to hear from

22 other folks on the Board just to make sure
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1 that I'm not crazy. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Absolutely. I

3 apologize if I'm taking up too much time from

4 the chair on the discussion. Miles, do you

5 have something? 

6 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, we had to do a

7 little bit of thinking about this, but what

8 you're proposing here I think can work very

9 well for the program. You just need to be very

10 clear in what you're recommendation is. So, in

11 the case of how you handled hops and yeast

12 this week, it, it's really elegant and you

13 have clarified what you intend to do. 

14 The program, our responsibility is

15 to take your recommendation and put it into

16 rulemaking, and that's our job and we'll

17 handle that. So, it sort of depends on, if

18 you're clear on your intent, of what you want

19 to do with an annotation, we can implement

20 that. 

21 Now, the timing of that may vary

22 depending upon where we are in the cycle. For
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1 instance, you made a recommendation on

2 methyanene in April, we had to get that done

3 by October, and we did that through an interim

4 Rule. 

5 For the hops, we have a couple of

6 years, until January 2013, so we're, we're

7 thinking that through right now, okay, are we

8 going to do this in one docket, through sunset

9 and put an expiration date on hops? Or will we

10 do it through two separate dockets, through

11 relistings, hops, through sunset and having a

12 separate docket that will handle adding the

13 expiration date. 

14 I think that's our responsibility,

15 to figure that out. It's your responsibility

16 to, to tell us clearly what you want in

17 regards to an annotation during sunset, and,

18 and we can go from there. I think this will

19 work. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

21 MR. SMILLIE: I, I'm not sure the

22 wording of the document, and, no, you're not
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1 crazy, but then again, I don't think anybody

2 on this Board is in any position to judge that

3 right now. So, speaking as a certification

4 agent, I think we're all certifiable. 

5 So, but what I want is, what I

6 want is that failsafe. What I, I'm, if the

7 Committee votes for an annotation, that's what

8 we want, but we want the backup that if for

9 whatever reason that annotation doesn't take

10 into, it doesn't go into effect, we don't want

11 to de-list automatically. 

12 If the Committee votes to de-list,

13 well that's different. You know, that's,

14 that's fine too. That, then we're clear. But

15 if we vote for an annotation and the

16 annotation doesn't go through, we want the

17 listing to stay. That's, that's what I would

18 like. 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, and that's why

20 originally we had number seven, so that if it

21 looked like we were going to have a problem

22 in, because of complexity or timing or
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1 something, that it wasn't going to go through,

2 then the Board would like the authority to

3 come back and say, just de-list, or, list this

4 thing, re-list it. 

5 But, we were told that this should

6 not be much different than the current

7 process, if we, if we're really clear about

8 what we want to get done. I don't know. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? Are you--do

10 you, you had your hand up earlier. Do you want

11 to--Kevin? 

12 MR. ENGELBERT: Joe, that's our

13 intent, and I, I think, sitting here

14 listening, I think the concern, the problem

15 is, the timing of everything. We obviously

16 don't want something to sunset that the Board

17 doesn't want to. 

18 So, the proposal is, when, in

19 Committee, we'll recommend an annotation

20 change if we deem necessary. This is all under

21 the assumption that We've had a material come

22 up under sunset, we think that it's being used
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1 in a way that it shouldn't, We're going to

2 restrict it in some respect. 

3 And the, and the Committee sends

4 this forward with that recommendation. Now,

5 maybe the proper step would be then to have

6 that recommendation be, we re-list this sunset

7 material with a new annotation. If that fails,

8 then the second vote becomes re-list it with

9 it's original annotation, period. 

10 And not have it have to wait until

11 the next cycle, do it all at the same time,

12 for those annotations that change on any

13 materials during a given sunset period. I

14 think that avoids any train wrecks. It makes

15 it happen right at the same time, and I think

16 we can write that in that language so that

17 that's the way it takes place. 

18 It's just a simple two vote thing

19 rather than a three or rather than a waiting

20 until after the meeting, that, well, this

21 failed, now the program's got to hustle and

22 get this thing so it doesn't go off. 
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1 It can just be simple, because if

2 the recommended annotation that the Committee

3 puts out, that is changed, doesn't pass the

4 Board, then obviously to me the simple

5 solution is you vote on the sunset with the

6 original annotation, to, plain and simple,

7 right, one or two. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

9 MR. FOSTER: Thank you, Kevin.

10 That, what, how you described it is how I

11 would want it, and you articulated it just

12 right. And I was kind of worried until then,

13 until you just said that. So if we can make

14 that intent clear, either in, in some way,

15 that, I'm all behind that. I think that's

16 great. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

18 Katrina? 

19 MS. HEINZE: When you have further

20 debate, because we don't, at, at least for me,

21 I don't have a document that's clear to me,

22 what happens in that second vote. But if I
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1 knew, if I'm the only one, I'm perfectly

2 willing to be the only confused person. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: We're not going to

4 go through a full debate, but I am at least

5 confused, if not just opposed. Katrina? 

6 MS. HEINZE: I am not a

7 parliamentarian, I will never be. I know that

8 we only have a few things left to vote on. Can

9 we do something to give the Committee a little

10 bit of time so they can think about that and

11 come back to it in ten minutes? I don't know

12 how to do that. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: We, we have one

14 other item, and it's that Committee. And then

15 we--

16 MS. HEINZE: Right, but like, can

17 they come back after the work plans? Are we

18 allowed to do that 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: We can do one other

20 item, take an additional vote ask, ask all

21 the, take, do one, do the one other item. We

22 can take a break. We ask all the other
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1 Committees to confirm their work plans and do

2 any of the other things that we need to do

3 before we wrap up this meeting, and the policy

4 can come back after the break. That's the,

5 that's the best we can offer right now. Okay.

6 What is the--Barry, you're, you're Chairman of

7 the Committee. Would you like to have Jay

8 withdraw that motion at this time and proceed

9 with your final item and then take a, a break

10 for, for coming back, consideration on this

11 issue? Not requiring that you change it, but

12 just taking a look at it. It's up to you. 

13 MR. FLAMM: I think that would be a

14 wise move, and let, let us talk about it. I

15 don't know how we'll come out, but--

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. 

17 MR. FLAMM: --we'll talk about it.

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. 

19 MR. FLAMM: And--

20 MR. GIACOMINI: That would require

21 two additional votes that I really don't want

22 to have to take. It was just, it was just
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1 brought to my attention, the option of tabling

2 and bringing back from the table. I really

3 don't want to have to take those additional

4 votes right now. 

5 If, if Jay would, you, be willing

6 to withdraw your motion. Otherwise I'm going

7 to call for the question. So you, want to,

8 withdraw your motion, we'll take on the--

9 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I'll withdraw

10 the motion-- 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: --we'll take on the

12 new member guide, take a break. 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Sure. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. 

15 MR. FELDMAN: Withdraw. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Withdraw the

17 motion. We'll--Barry, proceed with your next

18 item on the agenda. 

19 MR. FLAMM: The next item, let

20 Kevin handle it, but it's a new member guide

21 and I do believe we had a request to take out

22 any personal contact references, which will,
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1 that will be done. Kevin? 

2 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. The, as Barry

3 said, We've had request that anything that's

4 published for the public's viewing, any

5 personal contact information will be taken out

6 of the new member guide. But, obviously the

7 ones that are provided for new members will

8 have that information in there. 

9 So, with that caveat, I would like

10 to make a motion to accept the recommended

11 edits to the new member guide. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? 

13 MS. ELLOR: I'll second. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Moved and seconded

15 to accept the new member guide update as

16 presented, with the removal of personal

17 information. Maker of the Motion, further

18 debate on the issue, any further debate? Jeff?

19 MR. MOYER: I just wanted to

20 acknowledge the policy Committee for doing an

21 excellent job on rewriting that and making,

22 bringing to clarity many of the things that
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1 were confusing in the old, the old rendition.

2 So I say, thank you. And I'm sure the new

3 members will greatly appreciate that clarity.

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Further

5 debate? Further debate on the new member

6 guide? Call for the vote. Line up the names.

7 Tracy? 

8 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

10 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe? 

12 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry?> 

14 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

16 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

18 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay? 

20 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

22 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

2 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

4 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

5 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

6 MS. HALL: Yes. 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff?

8 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

10 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

11 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

12 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. Fifteen

13 minute break. Committee chairs, please work

14 with your Committees on Committee work plans.

15 Policy Committee, see what you can do on

16 anything, if you make any changes to this

17 document. Fifteen minutes. 

18 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

19 matter went off the record at 4:36 p.m. and

20 returned at 4:52 p.m.) 

21 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry--Jeff is in--

22 Bill Wolfe, could you please stick your head
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1 out the door and see if you see Jeff anywhere?

2 He'll be right back? Okay. I hope that was

3 verbally, and not with a flow chart or

4 pictures. 

5 Okay. All right. We proceed. Okay,

6 we are back to the item on the agenda, the one

7 item we have left. With the handling--the

8 Policy Committee, Mr. Chairman, I'll put it

9 back to you. Barry, Chairman of the Policy

10 Committee, back to you for the final matter.

11 MR. FLAMM: Jay, would you make a,

12 a proposal to the Committee with the changes

13 that we just made? 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay, so, Jay, the

15 previous motion was withdrawn, so it never

16 existed. So just, we can make a motion to

17 accept this document and then you can go

18 through the changes that were made to it from19 -yes, since it was posted. Okay, so just make

20 the, the motion, and then detail the changes.

21 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. So, again,

22 thank you guys for your patience. On behalf of
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1 the policy development Committee, we would

2 like you to adopt, I'd introduce a motion for

3 sunset review process, amended October--what

is today's date? Or the, August 28th 4 --

5 MR. GIACOMINI: October. 

MR. FELDMAN: August 28th 6 , 2010--

7 MR. GIACOMINI: October. October. 

8 MR. FELDMAN: --as amended on

October 28th 9 . Wow. 2010. 

MR. GIACOMINI: It was October 23rd 10

11 when we started this thing. 

12 MR. FELDMAN: And, this proposal is

13 intended to provide for streamlined, efficient

14 way in which the Board can adopt annotations

15 as opposed, as a part of sunset with complete

16 and full public input. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay, can we just

18 have the motion, second, and--

19 MR. FELDMAN: I forgot, I'm

20 introducing the motion. So, can I get a second

21 on the motion? 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Did you move? 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I moved that we

adopt this, August 28th 2 as amended October

28th 3 . 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: You know, if, if,

5 if he didn't have the exact words at this

6 point in time when it comes out in the

7 transcript--

8 MS. HEINZE: I second. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Okay. 

10 MR. FELDMAN: So the change in

11 language on section four will read as follows.

12 Kevin, could you do that for me? 

13 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. Section four

14 will read, the reviewing NOSB Committee

15 provides it's recommendation to the full Board

16 and the public sixty days prior to the Board

17 meeting which would include the following. 

18 A simple motion to remove, add, or

19 amend a restricting or clarifying annotation,

20 if applicable, and, I, a simple motion to

21 renew the existing listing. 

22 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. So, I
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1 think we've accomplished what people want to

2 do. We want to have a two track system so that

3 we ensure that we don't inadvertently delist

4 something while the possible renewal with

5 annotation is going through the process, the

6 regulatory process. Discussion? 

7 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

8 MR. FOSTER: Just, could we say,

9 full Board and the public no less than 60

10 days? To hit that on exactly 60 days is hard.

11 No less than 60 days. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: I think sixty days

13 was in, is the current listing. I don't know

14 that that's, I just had that open and I just

15 closed it. A friendly amendment--Jay, is that

16 alright? 

17 MR. FELDMAN: Sounds fine to me. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Did you get

19 that, Lisa? Okay. Any further debate? Joe. 

20 MR. DICKSON: I am reading that

21 that would require the package to include both

22 one and two? Is that--
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: It would be two

2 packages. There will be two votes. 

3 MR. DICKSON: Okay. So, but, would

4 it be helpful if we were to insert the word

5 both, include both of the following? 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

7 MS. HEINZE: I believe that's taken

8 care of by the if applicable after I. 

9 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Either that

10 or a comma, comma and. But I think we're fine,

11 I think the intent is clear. Kevin? 

12 MR. ENGELBERT: And we also took

13 away number seven on the original document

14 that we thought took care of this, but We've,

15 you know, realized that this is probably the

16 best, better approach.

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate?

18 Katrina? 

19 MS. HEINZE: I just want to thank

20 everyone for indulging me in clarifying this.

21 I really appreciate it. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Further debate? 
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1 MR. FELDMAN: I thank, take the

2 Board for your consideration and your input on

3 this. Appreciate it. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: I, I think, I, I

5 still question the need to tie annotations to

6 the sunset recommendation process. However, I

7 think the solution you've come up here, come

8 up with here where we are reasserting for the

9 public and the program not only the existing

10 listings but annotation change recommendations

11 that have happened in the past, is, is

12 exactly, is, is great. 

13 I think the one thing that is

14 worth noting is that in my view of this

15 reading, and I would have to sit down with it,

16 but I think in my view it will need to include

17 in the annotation portion, it will need to

18 include as many, if not all, of the past

19 annotation change recommendations that this

20 Board has passed, that have not yet been, have

21 not yet made it through rulemaking. 

22 So, it will be the burden of the
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1 Board and the burden of the public to, in

2 public comment, to make sure that all of those

3 recommendations are included because I'm

4 personally not clear what the effect of

5 missing one of those could be, if it, it this

6 reassertion is considered--I'd, I'd be

7 concerned that, that missing one would be

8 considered an overriding factor on the vote

9 that had been taken. 

10 But I think this is great, and I

11 think it's a compromise. Again, lot of hours,

12 a lot of people working together, ultimately

13 from different points of view, but ultimately

14 trying to reach the same goal, achieving the

15 right answer. 

16 And it's one more example of

17 please, people, in the future, have faith in

18 the Board, and the people on it. Okay. Further

19 debate? Ready for the question. Okay. Proceed

20 to vote. Joe Smillie? 

21 MR. SMILLIE: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Joe Dickson? 
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1 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Barry? 

3 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

4 MR. GIACOMINI: Steve? 

5 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: John? 

7 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

8 MR. GIACOMINI: Jay. 

9 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Katrina? 

11 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Wendy? 

13 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

14 MR. GIACOMINI: Kevin? 

15 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Jennifer? 

17 MS. HALL: Yes. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: Jeff? 

19 MR. MOYER: Yes. 

20 MR. GIACOMINI: Tina? 

21 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Tracy? 
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1 MS. MIEDEMA: Yes. 

2 MR. GIACOMINI: Chair votes yes.

3 Zero no, fourteen yes. Motion passes. 

4 MR. SMILLIE: And biblical

5 proportions were avoided. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: No, I think that's

7 -- I think you did a great job. I think that's

8 brilliant. And I think it does, by both votes,

9 exactly what it -- prevents the problems we

10 were hoping, we were perceiving, and may be an

11 interesting resolution that we can keep things

12 going with. 

13 Okay. That concludes, I believe,

14 the work of the Policy Committee, and that

15 concludes the recommendations up for

16 discussion on this Board today. And I thank

17 everybody for their hard work, their

18 attention, patience of everyone involved, and

19 in the long run, that cool heads for the most

20 part prevailed. 

21 We are ready to move into work

22 plans. The work plan portion of this meeting
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1 from each Subcommittee. We'll call on each

2 Subcommittee, the Committee chairperson to

3 present their Committee's work plan for the

4 next meeting. 

5 So, if they're each ready, we'll

6 go through in the order we had, crops -- if,

7 Lisa, if you're able to keep track of these,

8 either typing out or in long hand, and making

9 sure, everyone making sure that this document,

10 the document they have on this gets to Lisa as

11 quickly as possible. 

12 Okay? So, Katrina-- I mean, Tina,

13 are you ready? 

14 MS. ELLOR: I am ready. 

15 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Work plan for

16 crops, please. 

17 MS. ELLOR: Thank you, Mr.

18 Chairman. I did, I was able to send this out

19 to the Crops Committee and I will send it out

20 as a hard copy, you know, or by email,

21 sometime next week. 

22 Well, it'll be no surprise to
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1 anybody that at the very top of our work plan,

2 in purple, is corn steep liquor, and we're

3 happy to take that back and, and take it on.

4 Polycaprolactone, we'll be working

5 on that. I think DDA has been withdrawn, for

6 now. Difluroethane has been sent forward for

7 a TR. Prolylene glycomonolaurate, we received

8 a TR on that. We're reviewing it for

9 sufficiency. We're a little bit behind

10 schedule, we'll try and catch up on these. 

11 Indole 3 butyric acid, we sent for

12 a TR. Nickel, we are looking at the

13 sufficiency of that TR. I do believe. Yes.

14 Ammonium nanonoate has been sent for a TR.

15 Manganese sulfate monohydrate as an inert, and

16 this is another issue which we'll have some

17 back and forth with the Program on how we want

18 to handle these things and how we want to

19 communicate with the petitioners. 

20 We have 1-1-difluorethane, has

21 been sent for a TR. Methylaurate, as an inert,

22 once again. We have--
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Excuse me. Lisa, I

2 think on your end, she'll get you this list if

3 you can just put petition materials, that'll

4 save you a lot of headache. 

5 MS. ELLOR: All right. Ferric

6 phosphate, we are looking at a petition to

7 remove and we'll be working on that as well.

8 We have some questions out to S&T which I

9 think we'll probably get some return on here

10 pretty soon. 

11 Our 2012 remaining sunset

12 materials; I believe we have twenty two of

13 them which we'll be working on. Ethanol,

14 isopropynol, calcium hypochlorite, chlorine

15 dioxide, sodium hypochlorite, newspapers,

16 plastic mulches, pheromones, sulfur dioxide,

17 vitamin D3, copper materials, streptomycin,

18 lignin sulfinate, magnesium sulfate, ethylene

19 gas for pineapple flowering. 

20 All of these have been sent out

21 for technical review. Sodium nitrate, which

22 we're looking at in terms of sunset and with
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1 the ability to make annotations that might

2 make that job easier. I think I got them all,

3 but if not, you know, we'll, we certainly

4 won't leave any out, with Lisa's help. 

5 Also with Lisa's help, and I'm

6 sorry I can't get internet right now, but I'd

7 ask Lisa to remind me of what our 2013 sunsets

8 are that we have to start looking at, so, we

9 do have some 2013 sunset materials. If you

10 wouldn't mind, Lisa, just, you know, reading

11 into the record what those are, that would be

12 great. Because I can't get them. 

13 MS. BRINES: Lisa Brines, NOP

14 Standards Division. The 2013 sunset list is

15 quite a bit shorter. So the Crops Committee,

16 you have two listings for copper sulfate, one

17 on 601A, one on 601E. You're looking at a, in

18 a listing for ozone gas, two listings for

19 paracetic acid, 601A and 601I, and EPA lists

20 three inerts. And the last one is a 602

21 material, which is calcium chloride. 

22 MS. ELLOR: Thank you very much. In
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1 terms of documents or other recommendations,

2 you know, quite honestly, we will have no time

3 for mushroom standards here, but as always,

4 I'm happy to work with the NOP, you know, when

5 you guys get to that. I know a lot about

6 mushrooms. It's really all I know, so, if you

7 could take advantage of that, that would be

8 great. 

9 Jeff, oddly enough, has said he's

10 probably not going to do a food safety

11 recommendation, so I think we'll wipe that one

12 off our work plan for this session as well.

13 Oh, John. Never mind. Never mind. John will be

14 working on that. 

15 And I think that's what we have on

16 our plate, which is plenty, believe me. So.

17 But you did hear that, right, Miles? Plenty?

18 Right. Our work plan is full. Just saying.

19 Just saying. Okay. And that's all I have.

20 Unless my Crops Committee can think of

21 something else they really, really want to do.

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Thank you. I
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1 just want to note know appropriate it is; no

2 ill will towards the people in corn steep

3 liquor industry or any aspect of it's use, but

4 in many areas of the world, purple is

5 considered a sign of royalty, and there were

6 times today when corn steep liquor was a royal

7 something. So. We'll just go from there. 

8 Moving on, next on, livestock.

9 Kevin.

10 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes, I'm happy to

11 report that the next meeting of the Livestock

12 Committee will be back in the hot seat because

13 we will hope to have a recommendation out on

14 animal welfare. The two remaining items are

15 stocking rate charts and our animal handling,

16 transit, and slaughter recommendation. 

17 We at present do not have any

18 petitioned materials to look at, nor do we

19 have any 2013 sunset items to look at, so we

20 have accomplished not just with the current

21 Board, but, over the last five years an awful

22 lot has been gotten off the plate of the
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1 Livestock Committee, from thin fish, bivalves,

2 to animal welfare to, you know, we've done an

3 awful lot and I'm very proud of it, so, that's

4 all that we know of right now that we have. 

5 And we will have a -- we will not

6 start up our calls on the second but we will

start in again on November 9th 7 . Even though it

8 doesn't seem like a lot, we've got holidays

9 coming through and we're going to miss a lot

10 of days and the spring meeting will be here

11 before we know it, so we will start right in

again with our weekly calls November 9th 12 . 

13 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you.

14 Handling, Steve. 

15 MR. DEMURI: Thank you. Well, to

16 pen a phrase that John Foster said earlier, we

17 have a full quiver of petition materials. We

18 have twelve 205.605 materials. Calcium acid

19 pyrophosphate, sodium acid pyrophosphate, as

20 a petition for expanded use. 

21 Atapolgate, silicone dioxide to

22 remove, gibberellic acids, sulfiric acid,
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1 taurine, accesory nutrients, arachidonic acid,

2 arachidonic acid, ARA. Dextrin,

3 docosahexaenoic acid, DHA. And sulfur dioxide

4 to remove the annotation. 

5 And then, 606 items, we have five

6 of those. Annatto extract to remove, and we

7 have caramunich malt, barley beta fiber, beta

8 carotene and sugar beet fiber. So those are

9 petitions we have in front of us. We still

10 have four, or four 2012 sunset items to review

11 that we have not done yet. 

12 We have enzymes, and potassium

13 iodide for 205.605A. And then for 205.605B, we

14 have nutrient, vitamins and minerals and

15 potassium iodide, another listing, it's listed

16 in both sections. And that assumes that we'll

17 get lecithin, rulemaking process complete. If

18 not, then we we'll have to do something about

19 those at the next meeting as well. 

20 We also have thirteen materials

21 for sunset 2013, and I don't have the list,

22 but Lisa, if you could read those off for me
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1 I'd appreciate that. 

2 Ms. BRINES: Lisa Brines, for the

3 record. So the ones that I have listed for the

4 handling Committee for 2013 sunset are all 605

5 materials, which are agar agar, animal

6 enzymes, calcium sulfate, carrageenan,

7 cellulose, gluconodethalactone, and two

8 separate listings for tartaric acid, one on

9 605A and one on 605B. 

10 And I'm not sure that that number

11 matches up with what you said, Steve, but

12 we'll double-check. 

13 MR. DEMURI: And then we have --

14 thank you, Lisa -- a few recommendations that

15 we're going to get going on here. We had a

16 discussion document on nutrient vitamins and

17 minerals. At this meeting, we're going to

18 hopefully expand that out to a recommendation

19 for the Seattle meeting. 

20 And then at the NOP's request, I

21 think at the last meeting, they requested that

22 we review and revise as necessary the
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1 annotation for chlorine materials and

2 handling. So we'll look at that, and then we

3 have commissioning of a flavor task force. 

4 And begin a recommendation for that subject.

5 So we have a very full slate ahead of us. 

6 MS. HEINZE: Thank you. We have

7 three topics on our work plan. The first is a

8 continuing our work on classification of

9 materials. I think that's clear to everyone

10 why that needs to be a top priority. 

11 We'll be proceeding with a

12 decision tree and our worksheets and response

13 to the NOP feedback and have, hope to have

14 that to Committees for you guys to maybe test15 walk some materials through before the next

16 meeting. 

17 On materials, obviously that is

18 our primary responsibility, so we'll

19 collaborate with the Program Crops, Livestock

20 and Handling on petitions in TR's and Q to

21 make sure that everything is on track and

22 prioritized, although that is much easier work
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1 for the Committee now with Lisa Brines helping

2 and Lisa A. helping. 

3 We do still have on our work play

4 the take from the table petition. I believe

5 that was from the fall of `08, to try to clean

6 up materials that were lost in the NOSB

7 process, so we'll try to find some time for

8 that. 

9 Then, it is our understanding from

10 various public comments we've had over the

11 last several years that there are some

12 materials that were never on the table, but

13 that got petitioned and kind of are still

14 someplace in Committee work plans. 

15 Our intention with both of those

16 is to identify what they are and then work

17 with the Program to go back to the petitioners

18 to see if they still want the Board to be

19 considering those materials or if they can be

20 withdrawn. 

21 Finally, as I talked about in our

22 Materials Committee update, we are beginning
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1 work on our process improvements for the

2 materials review process. We'll collaborate

3 with the other Committees as needed. Our

4 initial plans, although we'll finalize this

5 after this meeting and our next call, is to

6 look at the evaluation checklist so it better

7 reflects the different types of material

8 actions we consider as Committees and Boards.

9 Look at a TR request form to

10 formalize that process, but also to allow us

11 to better customize the TR's to individual

12 material situations. And then define what a

13 good TR looks like. That's what we think right

14 now will be our priorities. 

15 But then, we will also develop a

16 roadmap so it's clear to the Board, the

17 program, and the public what we're hoping to

18 accomplish and by when. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you, Katrina.

20 CAC, Joe. 

21 MR. SMILLIE: Right. There's been a

22 pretty abrupt sea change in the way that the
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1 CAC is, is now working, and our work plan

2 reflects that. Basically, the change is that

3 unlike in the past, where we had issues and

4 then we went, created recommendations and took

5 them to the NOP, now we seem to be moving more

6 into a mode of interacting with the NOP on

7 issues. 

8 It's a good thing, but it's a

9 complicated thing, and it's a new thing. This

10 started at the meeting in California when NOP

11 was coming forward with guidance, were coming

12 forward with proposed guidance on pesticide

13 residue, unannounced inspections, and the

14 evaluation, evaluating -- evaluation

15 organizations is the only way I can think of

16 it right now. 

17 And that proposal, they wanted us

18 to look at that, so we had appointed people in

19 the Committee to track each one of those

20 items, and then basically said "Okay, NOP,

21 what exactly do you want, here? Let's, you

22 know, what is your intent?" 
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1 Are we to go ahead and write

2 recommendations on these issues, do you want

3 us to look at your guidance policy? Do you

4 want us to work with you on guidance policy?

5 How exactly are we going to do this? And there

6 were good questions. Arthur said, "Yes, those

7 are good questions, let's think about them,

8 we'll get back to you." 

9 And, it sort of, kind of ended

10 there, and my impression was that it was

11 withdrawn, which was okay. We had other things

12 to do, it wasn't a problem. And now, our last

13 recommendations basically the one which we

14 talked about, the 100% label claim and the use

15 of inerts as packaging aides. 

16 The NOP came back and said, you

17 know, sort of guess -- we understand where you

18 guys are going, but for the various very good

19 reasons, you know, there's a disconnect and

20 we're not able to implement that regulation.

21 So we want to go back and look at that, and

22 see if there's a way we can be just maybe a
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1 little more narrow in our recommendation. 

2 Because we still think that there

3 is an injustice out there that needs to be

4 corrected. But, again, it's reacting with the

5 NOP on their response to it. The made with,

6 which we withdrew, basically, there's going to

7 be guidance, a lot of guidance, and very

8 important guidance coming on the made with

9 labeling. 

10 And, we want to sit -- we want to

11 wait now and see where the NOP is going to go

12 with this made with label, let it sort of

13 like, it come out, let the dust settle, and

14 then see if there's still a role for us in

15 talking about that label and bringing back

16 maybe a more useful recommendation, if we see

17 the need for it on that one. 

18 The other thing, which we haven't

19 completed yet, which we got a start on, is

20 retail or, retail certification and what is

21 implied. And in a certain sense, limitations

22 to 101B is about that, too. We didn't talk
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1 about retailers in that document, but it's the

2 same exclusion, you know, where are they

3 exempt, where are they excluded, and what are

4 retail standards, and how is voluntary

5 certification is different than mandatory

6 certification? 

7 There's a lot of issues with

8 retail. We're a little hesitant to move

9 forward with that full-bore until we get a

10 feeling of where the NOP wants to go with

11 that. So, that's the sea change that I mean.

12 To me, things have changed from when I came

13 on. 

14 We were off in our little world,

15 and giving things to them, and now we're much

16 more linked at the hip, and I think that's a

17 good thing, but we've got to clarify that

18 relationship, we've got to figure out exactly

19 how that is supposed to work. 

20 Is it -- are we a joint Committee

21 with the NOP? No, that, was just kidding. But

22 again, we'll follow the mantra and, you know,
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1 we love babies, we hate fraud, and we have

2 faith in the NOP. 

3 So, our work plan is going to be

4 dependent on how all of those particular

5 issues, our exchange of information and sort

6 of getting the go ahead, so that we're not off

7 working on stuff that you guys are already

8 working on, and our recommendations are

9 meaningless. 

10 So, we don't want to waste our

11 time doing things that aren't going to be

12 useful. And, you know, we could just, you

13 know, become more of a lobbying group and ask

14 for cosmetics, pet food, group certification,

15 retail, aqua -- I won't, I'll stop there. 

16 You know, there's, you guys, in a

17 certain sense, I think, in a certain sense I

18 think the NOP should stop making

19 recommendations and just sit here and say

20 okay, now, you've got a lot of them. You know,

21 we want to see some results. 

22 But, no, you're working as fast
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1 and as hard as you can, and we respect that.

2 And we'll -- now our Committee will move into

3 a slightly different mode and work with the

4 NOP on those, at least, those issues that I've

5 mentioned and any others that come up. 

6 And there will be a new Chair,

7 probably later this week, so that Chair also

8 will have his or her own opinion of where it's

9 going to go. 

10 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Lisa? 

11 MS. AHRAMJIAN: I don't know if the

12 Committee has already considered it, but at

13 one point, I had made the note that there, CAC

14 may want to consider a meant, looking at

15 205.100A. I don't know if it's not important,

16 never mind. I just scribbled it down. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. We'll take

18 that, they'll take that under advisement.

19 Okay. Last one. Policy, Barry. 

20 MR. FLAMM: Thank you. And, as

21 often happens at the meeting, things come up

22 that gives the Policy Committee some work,
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1 and, and one things we need to address and

2 clarify and add or whatever to the policy and

3 procedure manual is this voting procedure and

4 the withdrawal, so that, I think that will be

5 important to work on that while it's a fresh

6 issue. 

7 Secondly, I, at some point, and I

8 haven't had a chance to talk to Katrina about

9 this yet, but the work that Materials is doing

10 with other Committees on the petition process

11 and that will have to be incorporated in the

12 manual. 

13 So, we probably need to get -- no

14 doubt, Committee members will be on your

15 Committee, but we need to get involved so

16 there isn't a delay in getting the manual

17 updated when we change forms and all that. 

18 Another one is taking a re-look in

19 section three and section four of the policy

20 manual regarding duties of officers and duties

21 of Committees. We had a very pleasant but

22 interesting surprise this year that the Vice
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1 Chair and the Policy Committees have some

2 exactly same duties assigned in the manual. 

3 And, somehow, in the review, when

4 we've reviewed the chapters separately, this

5 was never noticed. So, this is a matter of

6 looking at that, and seeing what role the

7 Board wants the Vice Chair to play. 

8 Right now, we both have, the

9 Committee and the Vice Chair, has the exact

10 same wording in terms of responsibilities for

11 up keeping the policy and procedures manual.

12 But I think the process -- one other thing, I

13 have just recently realized and noticed, that

14 there, we don't say, I'm not sure, Dan, what

15 the correct title of it is. 

16 But, the administrative group that

17 meets on Monday and the -- I don't know if

18 that's something we want to have in the policy

19 and procedures manual or not, what the duties

20 are and what's going on. But I know, it took

21 -- it was about a year before I even

22 understood when, you know, there was this kind
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1 of meeting. 

2 So, I think those are the things

3 that have come to our attention so far and

4 we've talked about it through emails but we've

5 had a little gap in meeting, concentrating on

6 the issues. So, I haven't got any negative

7 feedback from the Committee on these, but, so

8 I'm assuming that they agree that these are

9 ones to work on. 

10 Except the one that just occurred

11 today, and that is of necessity to address. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Yes, I don't know

13 if the -- what Barry's referring to on the

14 Monday meeting. We've had the admin team which

15 we've considered the three executive officers

16 and the Executive Director has a early call

17 Monday morning just to sort of make sure that

18 everything on the week is straight. 

19 It generally lasts somewhere

20 between ten and thirty minutes. Sometimes it's

21 no more than a hello, sometimes there's not a

22 quorum. It's just a sort of an informal way of
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1 getting everybody to check. I don't know how

2 much it needs to be in the policy and

3 procedure manual, and every administrative

4 team would handle it differently. 

5 I would just, as the Chair, like

6 to address briefly the one issue that you're

7 referring to that occurred today. Today, the

8 Board overruled the Chair, and if the Chair

9 was correct in it's interpretation, the Board

10 overruled that and enacted policy for today.

11 It's clear, I think, that the

12 Policy Committee needs to look at the clarity

13 of the presentation of material and when that

14 occurs, but I don't think it's necessarily --

15 that you are necessarily predetermined to

16 enact a recommendation that completely agrees

17 with the vote and the action that was taken

18 today. 

19 You could determine that what you

20 have is fine, it needs to be clarified, or you

21 could agree with that, that would be up to the

22 Committee and up to the Board in the future.
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1 But I don't, would not want you to go into

2 that action assuming you have to codify the

3 result of that appeal of the Chair. 

4 MR. FLAMM: I didn't intend to

5 approach it that way. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Thank you.

7 Okay. We are completed with our work plans.

8 Miles? 

9 MR. MCEVOY: Hello. You probably

10 don't -- we really appreciate all the work

11 that the NOSB has done and continues to do. We

12 have a lot of work to do to continue to catch

13 up with the NOSB recommendations that have

14 been made over the years, and we intend to

15 continue to implement those things. 

16 From time to time, we'll have to

17 check back with the Board to understand what

18 the intent of previous recommendations were.

19 We're working on a number of draft guidance

20 documents that are in the spirit of

21 implementing the NOSB recommendations. 

22 There are a few things that, in
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1 particular, we'd be interested in getting

2 additional input from the NOSB. When we have

3 a specific issue that we want input from the

4 NOSB, we'll send you an official memo to the

5 Board, to the Chair, so you have it in writing

6 of exactly what it is we're looking for. 

7 Just to mention a few of the

8 things. Percentage of organic ingredients,

9 calculating the percentage of organic

10 ingredients. There's been some questions about

11 that lately. There's been -- there's a policy

12 on the NOP website, but there's some new

13 questions, especially in terms of cosmetics,

14 that we may need to have the Board look at. 

15 Residue testing, of course, we're

16 moving forward with that, but any guidance or

17 input that the Board wants to provide in that

18 area would be helpful. We've mentioned before

19 material evaluation programs. California is

20 implementing a pretty impactful program

21 through AB856 to register, inspect all organic

22 inputs. 
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1 I think it's something the Board

2 should pay attention to. California is a big

3 organic production area, and it has wide

4 impact, so I think it's really something the

5 Board should pay attention to what California

6 is doing with that new program. 

7 And then, the other thing that

8 we're working with is how to handle

9 confidential business information for the

10 Board in regards to the petition process, how

11 to balance transparency with the CBI. 

12 So, those are some of the things

13 that we're thinking about and we look forward

14 to continuing to collaborate with the Board on

15 all the various projects that you're working

16 on. 

17 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Thank you.

18 Proceeding now onto the election -- selection

19 of NOSB officers. I would like to just run

20 through the -- from our policy and procedure

21 manual, run through the highlights. I'm going

22 to go through under election of officers on
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1 page fourteen. 

2 I will run through AB and on, but

3 I'm not going to worry about each individual

4 thing, just the highlights of -- all

5 interested NOSB members are eligible for

6 consideration for any position. Candidates may

7 be self nominated or nominated by another

8 member of the Board. 

9 Members interested in serving more

10 than one consecutive term in an officer

11 position can, if the Board is in favor.

12 However, it is recommended that an officer not

13 serve for more than two consecutive terms. 

14 Officers shall be elected to terms

15 of one year by majority vote at the annual

16 fall meeting. Only NOSB Board members present

17 are eligible to vote for nominated officers.

18 Board members are entitled to cast one vote

19 per nomination. 

20 The offices are Chair. Voting will

21 be by ballot immediately following the

22 nomination. The officers are Chair, Vice
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1 Chair, and Secretary. Ballots will be counted

2 for one office and -- ballots will be counted

3 for one office, and the acting chair will

4 announce the tally before the next Office is

5 open for nominations. 

6 The Acting Secretary will prepare

7 and distribute the ballots and gather the

8 votes by secret ballot. The Chair will tally

9 the votes after each officer nomination, and

10 the Acting Secretary will verify the vote

11 result. 

12 In the past, if one of those two

13 officers was running for one of the offices,

14 we would use the Vice Chair so that we would

15 have two to do that. Hopefully, that's not

16 going to - and appeal, an appeal the decision

17 of the chair or a point of order. 

18 Candidates receiving the largest

19 number of votes will be elected. In the event

20 of a tie, there will be a revote until a

21 nominee obtains the majority. All nominees

22 will be included in the revote, or may be
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1 given the opportunity to withdraw at their

2 discretion. 

3 Member vote counts will remain

4 confidential, and other NOSB members will not

5 be allowed to determine how the members voted.

6 Votes will be disposed of by the Chair or

7 Secretary, and that's it. So, we'll see how

8 things go. 

9 So, we are ready to proceed. We

10 begin with Chair. Entertain motions for office

11 of Chairman. You can nominate someone else, or

12 you can self-nominate, and there's no need for

13 a second. So, do I hear any--Steve? 

14 MR. DEMURI: I'd like to nominate

15 Tracy Miedema. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Anyone else? Kevin?

17 MR. ENGELBERT: I would like to

18 nominate Jay Feldman. 

19 MR. GIACOMINI: Anyone else?

20 Entertain a motion to close nominations for

21 Chairperson.

22 MR. SMILLIE: So moved. 
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1 MR. GIACOMINI: Second? 

2 MS. HEINZE: Second. 

3 MR. GIACOMINI: Opposed? Seeing

4 none, motion passes. We'll vote for

5 Chairperson. We've distributed these little

6 tablets. Write Tracy's name or Jay's name on

7 the sheet, and fold it up, make it

8 confidential. Turn it in. Tina and I will

9 count. To make sure we verify.

10 I, while we're doing this, just to

11 let you know, I don't know if I mentioned this

12 before, but in my local county, not long, a

13 couple of years ago, we did have someone lose

14 to Mickey Mouse. 

15 So, every vote does count. He,

16 there would -- let me, I have to tell this

17 story. There were three people running and one

18 person got forty -- got fifty, 50.1% of the

19 votes that were for -- that were cast for the

20 people running. 

21 But the regulations said that it

22 had to be a majority of all the votes cast,
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1 and when all the votes were counted, his

2 majority dropped to 49.9, which put him in a

3 runoff, and when the runoff was held a number

4 of months later, he lost. 

5 So, I don't know who those other

6 votes were for, but you can say in a way he

7 lost to Mickey Mouse, so. Every vote is

8 important. Vice Chair for year 2011, Joe

9 Dickson. Nominations for Secretary? Kevin? 

10 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. I nominate

11 Wendy Fulwider. 

12 MR. GIACOMINI: Further

13 nominations? Motion to close the nominations?

14 Was that a motion, Joe? Did you make a motion

15 to close? 

16 MR. SMILLIE: Motion to close. So

17 moved. 

18 MR. GIACOMINI: All right. And

19 seconded. Somebody did, I'm sure. In their

20 hearts. Okay. Election for Secretary. Wendy is

21 on the ballot. Just let everyone know, Mickey

22 Mouse is not a member of the NOSB Board and
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1 can not serve, so. 

2 While we're wrapping this up, just

3 want to remind at least Miles and Lisa in

4 addition to all the Board members to please

5 stay around immediately following the meeting.

6 If we can get a quick picture, a group

7 picture, I think we would all appreciate it.

8 I know those are some of my favorite pictures.

9 So, if we could get, if everyone

10 could stay around for that, so, we'll have

11 other things before we wrap up, but, as we're

12 -- just want to make that one announcement

13 now. 

14 New Board Secretary for 2011,

15 Wendy Fulwider. Any -- we are about to wrap up

16 this meeting. Any other announcements or --

17 Jeff? 

18 MR. MOYER: Well, before we have

19 Dan's final closing comments, assuming he may

20 have some, and we move onto pictures, I just

21 wanted to take a moment, and also before he

22 hands off the gavel to Tracy, to thank Dan for
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1 the great job he did as Chair over the last

2 year. 

3 And also personally for serving as

4 my Vice Chair when I was the Chair. I greatly

5 appreciate it and I think we all owe Dan a

6 round of applause for the great job he's done.

7 MR. GIACOMINI: Thank you. Any

8 other announcements? Katrina? 

9 MS. HEINZE: Well, I don't usually

10 speak for other people. I am confident that I

11 speak for others that I thank very much the

12 five of you who are retiring for welcoming us

13 to the Board and helping us learn and

14 shepherding us through the process. We will

15 miss you greatly. 

16 MR. GIACOMINI: Okay. Anything else

17 from anyone? I appreciate the hard work and

18 the dedication that we've all brought to the

19 Board, especially over the past year, but in

20 the five years, from all the people that I've

21 served with. 

22 The dedication and the commitment
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1 that we have is admirable. The passion that we

2 have is admirable, and the recognition that

3 comes from working together to reach the

4 goals, like we've said a number of times

5 before. We have faith, to have faith in the

6 Board, and the Board with get it right. It may

7 not always be pretty in the process, getting

8 there, but have faith in the Board. The Board

9 tends to get it right. 

10 And, so, I appreciate all that

11 you've done in helping me in this past year in

12 my position, and that's the one thing that I'd

13 like to leave you with is, have faith in the

14 rest of your members. In the long run, they'll

15 get it right. 

16 So, do we have a motion to adjourn

17 this meeting? 

18 MR. SMILLIE: Yes, my last one. I

19 move to adjourn. 

20 MR. MOYER: I'll second -- I'll

21 second that motion. 

22 MR. GIACOMINI: Does anyone have
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1 the nerve -- it's been properly moved and

2 seconded to adjourn this meeting, does anyone

3 have the nerve to oppose that motion? Kevin?

4 MR. ENGELBERT: No, but I'm not

5 really sure I want it to end. 

6 MR. GIACOMINI: Have faith in the

7 Board even when they're acting crazy. Meeting

8 adjourned. 

9 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

10 matter went off the record at 5:47 p.m.)

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Foster 1:19 20:8

25:7 29:6 31:9

34:1 36:3 41:9

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92:1 94:13 97:18

107:6 114:2

124:17 129:3

133:10 137:15

139:5 140:5,10,19

141:6 142:8,18

143:15 144:22

146:14 148:16

153:12 155:14

158:7 159:11,12

159:17 160:10

161:1,16 164:3

165:10,22 166:4

166:16,20 170:15

173:6,13,14,18

174:3 175:9 177:6

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207:9 208:16,17

209:9 211:4,10,13

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restrictions 280:20

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website 374:12

week 45:8 161:5

315:4 330:12

351:21 368:7

371:18

weekly 357:12

weigh 112:15

313:19

Weisman's 152:16

welcome 76:8

210:5

welcomed 86:7

welcoming 382:12

weld 8:19

welfare 86:6

356:14 357:2

well-informed

143:21

Wendy 1:19 19:9

24:8 28:7 31:14

34:6 36:8 41:14

52:14 62:12 71:14

75:7 82:11 88:22

96:19 113:4 122:3

123:18 129:8

133:15 139:10

145:5 148:21

153:17 155:19

158:12 164:8

167:3 169:16

172:7 174:10

177:11 179:9

181:7 183:19

189:5 194:21

197:22 203:6

205:5 207:14

222:6 269:11

272:10 281:17

287:18 299:11

306:21 308:18

341:1 349:12

380:11,20 381:15

went 56:16 59:11

131:3 149:16

267:20 310:15

341:19 363:4

384:10

weren't 226:20

245:7 263:14

291:11

Western 1:11

wet 247:21 248:4

we'll 21:19 31:21

58:13 63:11 66:19

66:22 68:7 81:5

86:14,20 95:9

100:4,5 105:12

120:11 127:11

160:13 163:14,17

186:6 193:19

202:8 220:22

231:17 241:7

268:9 298:1,1

330:16 333:19

337:15,17 338:8

338:11,17 351:1,5

352:4,10,16 353:7

353:9,13 354:3

355:11 356:7

358:16,18 359:12

360:2,11,18 361:7

362:2,4 364:8

366:22 368:2,17

373:16 374:4

378:7 379:4

381:10

we're 5:19 13:4

14:5,21 15:2

17:10,11 22:13

23:5 32:13 33:5

36:21 40:8 42:16

43:17 44:9 46:8,9

47:12,20,20 48:11

50:5,7 54:16 55:3

55:3,4 57:18

58:22 59:2 76:6

80:6,6 83:22 84:8

84:21 87:1 90:10

92:15,20 99:4

101:20 110:17

115:14,16 120:12

121:4,4 125:17

126:9,12 130:17

141:13 143:16

147:9 149:10

150:9 152:8,17,22

163:3,4 184:7,7

184:13 191:13

193:15 200:13

201:13 202:13

217:10,22 218:8

221:4,4,19,19

223:7,20 224:13

227:12 229:9

232:5 234:17,20

234:21 243:18,18

244:8,10,20

249:18 256:13,13

259:8,8,10 260:14

263:5 269:5

280:19 286:3,7

291:13 292:8

294:4 307:20

310:10,10 317:14

324:10,16 325:11

325:12,13 326:17

331:6,6 332:4,14

333:7 334:1 336:3

346:10 352:2,8,9

353:22 357:9

359:15,17 362:17

364:20 366:8,15

367:6 373:19

374:6,15 375:8,13

379:10 381:2,11

we've 13:15 23:6

56:15 59:21 65:1

72:20 84:22 98:7

100:13 101:22

147:11 151:7

191:4 220:11

224:13 226:16

227:10 228:18

233:2 234:18

237:4,8 238:12

239:1,4,6 241:3,8

247:7 248:15

260:8 267:7

276:14 277:19

290:8 297:19

309:9,10 325:21

327:9 333:21

339:3 345:1

346:14 357:2,8

361:10 366:17,18

370:4 371:4,4,14

371:15 374:18

379:5 382:18

383:4

whey 206:5 267:12

270:15,16 271:1,5

271:9,10

wide 111:21 196:22

375:3

widely 196:9,18,21

wild 7:20,22 8:5,10

9:21

Williams 192:22

willing 58:6 210:22

245:9,11 266:15

336:2 338:5

willingly 98:11

winds 7:22

wine 181:20 182:12

182:21

wingman 159:16

wipe 355:11

Wisconsin 1:12

wisdom 295:15

wise 171:10 337:14

wish 234:7

withdraw 17:13,16

26:1,2,5 53:15

55:20 57:12 66:16

67:2,4 68:4,5

117:5,7,9 120:21

130:1,5 209:21

237:21 261:4

265:9 266:16,18

274:10,13 283:18

284:3,18 285:10

286:14,14 337:8

338:6,8,9,15,16

378:1

withdrawal 54:14

265:12 283:16,19

286:4 369:4

withdrawing 14:15

54:5 57:11 117:8

267:11

withdrawn 14:11

14:18,18 117:11

227:4 228:17

236:11 241:11

342:15 352:5

361:20 364:11

withdrew 231:1

365:6

within-Committee

213:15

withstand 241:6

Wolfe 341:22

won 114:15 125:14

236:17

wonder 92:14

wonderful 79:3

wondering 64:21

227:7 256:2 259:4

wood 135:5

word 104:22

105:18 106:22

245:4 292:4 346:4

worded 274:5

304:5
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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

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wording 151:14

248:19 291:22

331:22 370:10

wordology 249:2

words 6:7 77:14

229:20 255:21

314:10 326:15

344:5

work 6:7 12:1,20

13:2 18:15 25:21

47:13 49:12,14

55:6 58:12 98:8

98:17 108:22

110:8,10 111:20

143:22 152:11

157:12 161:2

162:16 163:7

174:6 182:18

193:5 210:22

234:15 240:2,4

241:13 245:11

251:9,18 267:5

273:14 280:19

281:4 283:2,5

305:16 314:18

319:16 322:7

330:8 331:19

336:17 337:1

341:13,14 350:14

350:17,21,22

351:3,15 352:1

355:4,12,18 360:7

360:8,22 361:3,14

361:16 362:1

363:1 364:4

366:19 367:3

368:3,22 369:5,9

371:9 373:7,10,12

382:17

workable 314:15

worked 11:8 98:19

239:2,5

working 18:18 46:9

46:10 57:4 110:4

121:4 193:22

239:7 243:16,19

244:9,10,15

279:19 280:2

293:21 348:12

352:4 353:7,13

355:14 363:1

367:7,8,22 373:19

375:8,15 383:3

Workplans 4:17

works 11:15

199:13

worksheets 360:12

world 9:12 356:4

366:14

worried 335:12

worry 376:3

worth 8:4 81:15

83:11 347:14

wouldn't 6:15 10:7

92:15 102:10

157:19 238:13

251:14 262:15

266:6 292:11

304:3 322:7

354:10

Wow 343:9

wrap 98:1 337:3

381:11,15

wrapping 381:2

wreck 329:1

wrecks 334:14

write 137:19

296:19,19 334:16

364:1 379:6

writes 296:20

writing 88:4 374:5

written 122:16

141:14 234:9

235:11 276:10

304:12

wrong 225:4 231:7

293:5 329:5

X

Xanthum 136:14

xylazine 69:14

Y

year 43:21 77:15

132:10 144:1

240:13 268:6

305:17 369:22

370:21 376:15

380:8 382:2,19

383:11

years 6:9 44:2,7

46:7,17 105:16

152:9 201:12

239:3 240:1

264:21 331:6

356:21 361:11

373:14 379:13

382:20

year's 174:6

yeast 100:9,20

101:5,5,6,9,10,13

102:8,13 103:6,7

103:10,11,12,14

103:15,19 104:1,9

107:17,18,20

108:1,2,4,5,8,21

111:2,4 112:5,6

156:16,19 157:5

157:13,16 240:8

240:10,10 319:13

327:6 330:11

yellow 100:18

yeses 16:4 42:1,14

yesterday 46:4

72:22 78:6 83:12

99:9 132:8 141:7

150:13 151:15

152:17 154:14

268:5 292:18

yes's 173:10 187:16

yield 329:1

yields 9:1

Z

zeal 295:7 297:5

zero 16:2,4 20:11

25:16,16 27:8

29:12 31:17 34:11

36:15 42:1 53:3

63:3 72:7 76:2

83:8 89:21 97:20

114:6 129:12

133:22 139:17

145:14 147:16

149:10 154:8

156:12 159:7

165:5 168:2

170:17 173:9

175:15 177:14

179:14 181:14

184:6 187:16

189:16 195:12

198:15 206:2

273:13 282:22

287:21 307:6

309:5 341:12

350:3

zinc 38:8

zone 78:22 79:5,7

79:17 80:3,12

Þ

þ 3:7

0

07 147:15

08 361:5

1

1st 130:20 131:10

131:19 200:16

1-1-difluorethane

352:20

1:14 184:15 185:2

100 181:22

100% 364:14

101B 289:8 290:6,7

291:10,15,16

294:5 365:22

11:02 149:16

11:15 149:13

11:25 149:17

11:55 184:15

2

2,4,7,9-tetramethyl

34:17

2,4,7,9-tetrameth...

32:22

2:41 267:20

2007 193:10

201.101B 289:15

2010 1:8 40:1 60:5

68:14,19 70:15

137:21 144:8

275:13 288:13

289:3 300:13

307:13 310:1

311:11 343:6,9

2011 380:8 381:14

2012 3:6,7,10,12,15

3:17,19,20,21

36:19 39:10,14,18

42:4 43:10 60:3,7

68:13,20 70:14

72:10 99:19 134:9

137:21 144:8

150:9 151:1

154:22 160:6

163:22 166:14

171:4 174:1 176:4

177:21 178:4

179:21 180:3

182:2,7 185:8

187:6 188:11

196:1 199:2 201:4

204:14 207:3

211:20 268:22

271:6 353:11

358:10

2013 130:20 131:10

131:19 200:9,16

331:6 354:7,9,14

356:19 358:21

359:4

205 85:8

205.100A 368:15

205.101B 288:6

289:1

205.101(b) 4:5

288:11

205.238 60:13

205.238C2 84:4

205.238(c)(2) 3:13

205.240B3 78:2

205.240C12 78:7

205.248A1 77:13
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Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 428

205.601 3:6,7 16:10

16:19 21:11,15

29:18 30:2,7

38:11 42:8 43:5

43:10 51:17

205.602 3:6 38:12

205.603 3:11,12

60:4,8,19 61:2

63:7,14 68:15

70:14

205.603A 69:7

205.603b 67:15

69:20 90:13

205.603d 70:4

205.603e 70:6

205.603f 70:8

205.604 3:11 60:4

68:15 70:8,15

205.605 115:15

134:9,10 135:6

137:3 173:15

357:18

205.605A 150:11

150:16 154:11,18

157:2 358:13

205.605B 118:5

125:9 156:15

159:10,14 165:8

166:5 168:4,6

170:22 171:4,16

173:12,18 174:1

175:18,21 177:17

177:21 179:16,21

181:17 182:1

358:13

205.605(a) 3:16,19

205.605(b) 3:16,21

205.606 3:17,21

115:17,19 118:6

118:15 125:10,11

131:9 134:10

136:19 137:3

140:12 146:5,17

185:10,21 186:12

190:10 191:7,12

195:15,18 198:18

198:20 199:1

204:5,9 206:20

208:19 211:14

268:15,18 270:17

206.272B1 279:4

2111.A5 279:4

22nd 300:13

23rd 343:10

238C2 84:7 85:20

2424 1:11

27th 201:4 307:12

273 3:22

28 1:8

28th 275:13 288:13

289:3 310:1

311:11 343:4,6,9

344:2,3

283 4:3

3

3 352:11

3.1 233:16

3.5 233:7

3:02 267:21

3:46 310:15

307 4:10

350 4:17

378 4:20

383 4:22

4

4 3:8

4:02 310:16

4:36 341:19

4:52 341:20

49.9 380:2

5

5 3:2,5 140:16,17

140:18

5-decyne-4,7-diol

34:17

5:47 384:10

50.1 379:18

59 3:9

6

6 140:17

60 159:10 345:9,10

345:11

600 109:14

601 34:18 35:1

601A 354:17,19

601E 354:17

601I 354:19

602 354:20

603 63:19 66:9,9

68:21 71:3

603B 91:6 96:13

603(a) 66:10

603(b) 66:10

604 68:21 71:3

605 100:10,15

114:22 134:14

138:5 139:17,18

140:20 159:10

359:4

605A 103:6,7 151:1

155:2 156:16

157:5 359:9

605B 160:8 163:21

166:14 168:10

172:3 176:3 178:4

180:3 182:6 359:9

606 100:10 114:22

119:19 120:5

130:20 131:19

138:5 139:18

169:4 184:10

185:8 187:6,9

188:11 193:5

195:22 204:13

206:17 207:2

208:16 211:15,20

213:2 223:15

268:21 270:15

271:5,16,18

317:11 329:19

358:5

7

7 85:8

8

8:00 1:10

8:06 5:2

9

9th 357:7,12

9:07 59:11

9:27 59:12

99 3:14 254:11
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 ----------------------- 

Court Reporter 

429

National Organic Standards Board

US Department of Agriculture

10-28-10

Madison, Wisconsin