1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6

7 Public Hearing on 

8 Standards of Performance of Greenhouse Emissions 

9 From New Stationary Sources:

10 Electric Utility Generating Units

11

12

13

14

15 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m.

16 Thursday, February 6, 2014

17

18 EPA East Building

19 Room B

20 1201 Constitution Avenue, N.W.

21 Washington, D.C. 20210

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
2

1 MORNING SESSION 

2 EPA Panel:

3 BOB WAYLAND, Group Leader

4 Energy Strategies Group, EPA Office of

5 Air Quality Planning and Standards

6

7 BILL STEVENS, EPA,

8 Clean Air Market Division

9 Washington, DC

10

11 CHRISTIAN FELLNER, 

12 Energy Strategies Group

13 Research Triangle Park, NC

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
3

1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 EPA PANEL:

3

4 JULIE ROSENBERG, Chief

5 State and Local Branch

6 EPA Climate Protection Partnership Division

7

8 JIM KETCHAN-COLWILL,

9 Office of Policy Analysis and Review

10

11 CHRISTIAN FELLNER, 

12 Energy Strategies Group

13 Research Triangle Park, NC

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
4

1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 Morning Session

4 PUBLIC COMMENTS:

5 PAUL BILLINGS, American Lung Association 13

6 LAURA ANDERKO, Scanlon Endowed Share & Values

7 Based Healthcare 19

8 ANDREW KNUDSEN, ESQ, Hunton & Williams 24

9 SEAN HOLLIHAN, Healthy Air Coalition

10 Virginia 31

11 BARBARA GOTTLIEB, Environment & Health at

12 Physicians for Social Responsibility 36

13 JANE DIFENBACH, Citizen 42

14 JOHN ELWOOD, BelovedPlanet.com 48

15 ERIC HOLDSWORTH, Edison Electric Institute 52

16 REV. TERENCE ELLEN, Interfaith Moral Action

17 On Climate 59

18 REV. M. DELE, Virginia's Interfaith Power

19 & Light Affiliation 63

20 STEVEN PARKS, Citizen 67

21 DAVID DONNIGER, NRDC 71

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
5

1 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE

2 LIH YOUNG, Citizen 78

3 SAM LOCKHART, Citizen 83

4 BENJAMIN LONGSTRENTH, Natural Resources 

5 Defense Council 87

6 MOLLY RAUCH, Mom's Clean Air Force 94

7 ZACKERY GOOD, Virginia Conservation Network 99

8 JOHN HILL, General Board of Church & Society 

9 of the United Methodist Church 102 

10 RICHARD CIZIK, New Evangelical Partnership

11 for the Common Good 106

12 SARAH SCHERSCHLIGT, Peace Lutheran Church 112

13 SARA CHIEFFO, League of Conservation Voters 117

14 ASHTON BAILEY, Air & Energy, Staff attorney

15 with Greenlaw 122

16 GREG BERTELSEN, National Association of

17 Manufacturers 129

18 JOHN CARTMILL, Fairfax Climate Watch 135

19 LINDA MULLER, Rappahannock Group 140

20 DARYL DOWNING, Citizen 143

21 TANYA ROLAND, Citizen 145

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
6

1 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE

2 ANNE USHER, ECR Club - Virginia Chapter 150

3 CARLA ARONSOHN, Environmental America 154

4 RICHARD BALL, Citizen 159

5 JACKIE WEIDNER, Nicole Hernandez Hammer 166

6 MARK MAGANA, Green Latinos 172

7 LUCIA OLIVA HENNELLY, Citizen 176

8 MARTIN WITCHGOR, Citizen 182

9 GLEN BESA, Sierra Club, Virginia Chapter 186

10 JAMES MULLINS, Citizen 189

11 TYLA MATTESON, Citizen 192

12 WILFRED CANDLER, Greater Annapolis

13 Environment Action 194

14 -- AFTERNOON SESSION -- 202

15 TIMOTHY WHITCOMBE, Citizen 198

16 SARAH HUAZANO, Citizen 207

17 MOLLY SIMON, Citizen 210

18 ANDY LUDWIG, Citizen 213

19 JESSICA ECKDISH, Sierra Club 219

20 SUSAN STILLMAN, Citizen 223

21 SARAH BUCCI, Environment, Virginia 228

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
7

1 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE

2 MARK SHERIDAN, League of Conservation

3 Voters 232

4 SARAH HAGAN, Sierra Club 235

5 ELIZABETH OUZTS, Environment North Carolina 239

6 SARAH FROST, Environment America 243

7 Madison Mathiasen, Environment America 246

8 HARVEY FERNBACH, Citizen 251

9 KRISTEN COOK, Citizen 254

10 PARIS CARR, Citizen 257

11 MARTHA ELLEN WINGFIELD, Citizen 258

12 MALLEN MOENCH, Utah Physician's for a

13 Healthy Environment 262

14 DONALD GURNEY, Sierra Club 267

15 JUDY KOENICK, Citizen 273

16 MARK SIBLEY, National Wildlife Federation 280

17 RYAN KINGSTON, Citizen 286

18 JENNIE GOSCHE, National Wildlife Federation 290

19 DANIEL MARSHALL, Citizen 294

20 GRANT LAHMANN, Small Business Majority 297

21

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
8

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MORNING SESSION

3 (9:00 a.m.)

4 MR. WAYLAND: Good morning. I'd like to 

5 thank you for attending this public hearing 

6 today. My name is Bob Wayland. I am the group 

7 leader for the Energy Strategies Group in EPA's 

8 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards. My 

9 group was responsible for the proposal that we're 

10 here to talk about today.

11 I will be chairing this morning's hearing 

12 session, and joining me here on the panel to my 

13 left are Christian Fellner, who is part of the 

14 Energy Strategies Group in Research, Triangle 

15 Park. And Bill Stevens to my right who is with 

16 EPA's Clean Air Markets Division here in 

17 Washington, D.C. 

18 We are here today to listen to your 

19 comments on EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

20 standard for new power plants. EPA published the 

21 proposed standards in the Federal Register on 

22 January 8th, 2014. This common sense step under 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
9

1 the Clean Air Act would, for the first time, set 

2 national limits on the amount of carbon pollution 

3 power plants built in the future can emit. 

4 EPA is proposing to set an emission 

5 standard of 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide, or 

6 CO2 per megawatt hour on a gross output basis for 

7 new fossil fuel fired utility boilers and for 

8 integrated gasification combined cycle units, or 

9 IGCC units. 

10 The EPA is also proposing standards for 

11 natural gas-fired combustion turbines. Those 

12 proposed standards are 1,000 pounds of CO2 per 

13 megawatt hour for large combustion turbine units, 

14 and 1,100 pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour for 

15 smaller units. 

16 The Agency's proposal does not apply to 

17 existing units. EPA's proposed standard reflects 

18 the ongoing trend in the power sector to build 

19 cleaner, lower emitting facilities. The proposal 

20 is flexible and would help minimize carbon 

21 pollution throughout the deployment of the same 

22 types of modern technologies that power companies 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
10

1 are already using to build our next generation of 

2 power plants.

3 EPA's proposal would ensure that this 

4 progress toward a cleaner, safer, and more modern 

5 power sector continues well into the future.

6 Today we will be accepting oral comments 

7 on all aspects of this proposal and we will 

8 prepare a written transcript of the hearing. The 

9 transcript will be available as part of the 

10 official record or docket for this rule and will 

11 be placed in the regulatory docket.

12 We are also accepting written comments on 

13 the proposed rule until March 10th, 2014. 

14 Out in the registration area, which is 

15 located in the lobby just outside of this room, 

16 there are handouts with detailed information 

17 outlining how you submit written comments by 

18 mail, fax, or electronically by e-mail. EPA will 

19 consider your comments as we move forward to 

20 complete a final rule. Written statements and 

21 supporting information submitted during the 

22 comment period will be considered with the same 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
11

1 weight as any oral comments and supporting 

2 information presented here at today's hearing.

3 Now let me describe the logistics for 

4 today's hearing. I'm going to call schedule 

5 speakers to the table two at a time. When it is 

6 your turn to speak, please state your name, your 

7 affiliation before you begin your testimony. It 

8 would also help out the court reporter if you 

9 would please spell your last name to make sure 

10 that it's in the record correctly.

11 In order to be fair to everyone, we will 

12 limit your testimony to five minutes each and ask 

13 that everyone remain at the table until both 

14 speakers in the pair have finished. So if you're 

15 the first speaker, when you're done please remain 

16 at the table until the second person is finished.

17 After you finish your testimony, members 

18 of the panel here may ask clarifying questions if 

19 they're unclear on any of your testimony. If you 

20 would like to provide us a written copy of your 

21 testimony, you can give a copy to the 

22 registration desk or leave it here with us.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
12

1 We have a little time-keeping system here 

2 which consists of a green, yellow, and red light 

3 to help you keep track of your five minutes to 

4 speak. When you begin speaking the green light 

5 will come on. The yellow light will illuminate 

6 when you have a minute left to speak. And when 

7 the red light comes on, I will have to ask you to 

8 stop to try to keep the hearing on schedule. If 

9 you run a few minutes -- I mean, a few seconds 

10 over, that's fine. But we like to limit 

11 everybody to five minutes because we do have a 

12 long day today.

13 Today's hearing is scheduled from 9:00 

14 a.m. and will continue until 8:00 p.m. or later 

15 if necessary, depending on the number of 

16 speakers. The hearing will go on recess during

17 the scheduled lunch break from 12:00 to 1:00, and 

18 a dinner break from 5:00 until 6:00 p.m. We will 

19 reconvene promptly at 1:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. 

20 respectively. 

21 If you would like to testify but have not 

22 yet registered to do so, please sign up at the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
13

1 registration table out in the lobby outside of 

2 this room. For those who have already registered 

3 to speak, we have tried to accommodate your 

4 requests for a specific time slot. We ask for 

5 your patience as we proceed through the list of 

6 speakers. We may need to make some adjustments 

7 as the day progresses. We do realize that the 

8 weather in the Northeast is causing travel 

9 problems for some people who were scheduled to be 

10 here, so we may have to make some adjustments to 

11 accommodate those people as they arrive.

12 If any questions arise throughout the 

13 day, please see one of us here or staff at the 

14 registration table for assistance. And again, 

15 I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to 

16 be here today to give us your comments on the 

17 proposed rule. And with that, let's get started.

18 Our first two speakers will be Mr. Paul 

19 Billings and Ms. Laura Anderko. 

20 MR. BILLINGS: Good morning. I'm Paul 

21 Billings, B-I-L-L-I-N-G-S, Senior Vice President, 

22 Advocacy and Education for the American Lung 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
14

1 Association.

2 The American Lung Association is pleased 

3 to support the Environmental Protection Agency's 

4 proposed standards for carbon pollution from 

5 power plants. This rule is setting the stage for 

6 the next generation of America's power plants to 

7 be the least toxic and most modern in the world. 

8 The American Lung Association believes a 

9 power plant should not be allowed to emit 

10 unlimited amounts of carbon pollution into the 

11 air. Scientists warn that the buildup of carbon 

12 pollution will create warmer temperatures, which 

13 will increase the risk of unhealthful smog 

14 levels. Any increase in smog means more 

15 childhood asthma attacks and complications for 

16 those with lung disease. Addressing carbon 

17 pollution will help protect public health. 

18 Higher temperatures can enhance 

19 conditions for ozone formation, even with the 

20 steps that are in place to reduce ozone. 

21 Evidence warns that changes in the climate are 

22 likely to increase unhealthy ozone levels in the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
15

1 future in large parts of the United States.

2 To protect human health the Nation needs 

3 strong measures to reduce climate change in 

4 ozone. Proposed standards for power plants are 

5 an important first step to address large 

6 stationary sources' contribution to climate 

7 change. 

8 Ozone is a highly reactive gas that is a 

9 form of oxygen, commonly known as smog. Ozone is 

10 a pervasive pollutant that forms in the 

11 atmosphere when hydrocarbon vapors react with 

12 oxides of nitrogen in the presence of sunlight 

13 and heat. 

14 The American Lung Association's State of 

15 the Air Report shows that more than 119 million 

16 Americans, nearly four in 10 people, live in 

17 areas where the air is unhealthy because of ozone 

18 pollution. The report is based on the 75 part 

19 per billion ozone standard, a standard that the 

20 science shows is clearly too high to protect 

21 public health. If President Obama and EPA had 

22 followed the law and the science, the ozone 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
16

1 standard would be much more protective of public 

2 health. 

3 When a person inhales ozone, it reacts 

4 chemically with the body's internal tissues, 

5 causing inflammation like a sunburn of the lung. 

6 This respiratory irritant is found in large areas 

7 across the country and breathing ozone may cause 

8 serious harm to health, including premature 

9 death, shortness of breath and chest pain, 

10 wheezing and coughing, inflammation of the lining 

11 of the lung and increased asthma attacks.

12 New evidence indicates that ozone is 

13 likely to cause cardiovascular harm, may cause 

14 reproductive and developmental harm, including 

15 low birth weight and harm to the central nervous 

16 system. People most at risk include people with 

17 lung diseases such as asthma, emphysema, and 

18 chronic bronchitis; children because children's 

19 airways are smaller, still developing, and 

20 children have higher rates of respiration, and 

21 they're often outdoors more as well; people who 

22 work and exercise outdoors; and our seniors, age 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
17

1 65 and older. 

2 In sum, ozone pollution is a serious 

3 health threat that impacts millions of Americans. 

4 Reducing carbon emissions will help us fight to 

5 reduce ozone and will reduce the risk of lung 

6 disease and other health problems associated with 

7 the changing climate.

8 We urge EPA to strengthen the carbon 

9 pollution proposal in several key ways; stronger 

10 standards will spur the adoption of the cleaner 

11 sources of energy. Our children and their 

12 children deserve no less. Therefore, to ensure 

13 the next generation of power plants are the most 

14 modern and least toxic, we urge EPA to adopt a 

15 tighter than 1,000 pound per megawatt hour carbon 

16 dioxide standard for all natural gas combined 

17 cycle plants, reflecting the achievements of the 

18 best performing plants in operation today.

19 The American Lung Association believes 

20 that the U.S. should not continue to expand its 

21 coal-fire generating capacity because of the 

22 extensive scope of health risks associated with 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
18

1 the use of coal, the disproportionate impact on 

2 local communities and the long lifespan of 

3 electric generating units. 

4 We do appreciate the EPA's proposed 

5 standard for simple cycle turbines that sell more 

6 than one third of their potential electric output 

7 to the grid each year. However, EPA should 

8 incorporate strong standards for all simple cycle 

9 turbines. We'll discuss all these issues in 

10 greater detail in our technical comments that we 

11 will file with the agency next month.

12 Finally, EPA must propose new standards 

13 for all existing power plants in June, 2014. Any 

14 further delay in placing strong limits on carbon 

15 pollution from existing power plants shortchanges 

16 our kids and shortchanges our health. Thank you, 

17 very much.

18 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much, Paul. 

19 Bill or Christian do you have clarifying 

20 questions?

21 MR. FELLNER: Just with your technical 

22 comments. In a month will they have 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
19

1 recommendations for the standard; you said a 

2 tighter standard then natural gas?

3 MR. BILLINGS: Yes.

4 MR. FELLNER: For the simple cycle. So 

5 you have that information.

6 MR. BILLINGS: We'll include that in our 

7 technical comments, yes. 

8 MR. FELLNER: Okay. Thank you. 

9 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you.

10 MR. BILLINGS: Thank you very much.

11 MR. WAYLAND: And thank you for staying 

12 under the limit. 

13 Ms. Anderko?

14 MS. ANDERKO: Hi. My name is Laura 

15 Anderko; Dr. Laura Anderko. It's A-N-D-E-R-K-O. 

16 And I hold the Scanlon Endowed Share and Values 

17 Based Healthcare at Georgetown University. I 

18 also sit on the board of the Alliance of Nurses 

19 for Healthy Environments.

20 I am a nurse and a recipient of the White 

21 House Champions of Change Award for my work in 

22 climate change and public health. I am here to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
20

1 support EPA's proposed new standards for reducing 

2 carbon pollution from existing and future power 

3 plants, which would substantially improve air 

4 quality and ultimately public health.

5 Every health professional knows and 

6 learns early on in our studies that air is the 

7 very essence of life. Air is a life force. And 

8 we breathe approximately 35 gallons of air a day, 

9 or about 20,000, 20 to 25,000 respirations each 

10 day. So think about your breathing right now.

11 The quality of the air we breathe 

12 strongly impacts our health and our wellbeing, 

13 and our longevity. 

14 The Clean Air Act is one of the Nation's 

15 most important public health laws with a long 

16 history of success. However, as you know, there 

17 are no national limits on the amount of carbon 

18 pollution that are allowed from power plants. 

19 EPA needs to propose strong limits on carbon 

20 pollution from power plants to fulfill the 

21 mission of the Clean Air Act, and its own mission 

22 which is protecting the public from air pollution 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
21

1 that endangers health.

2 There are a number of co-benefits gained 

3 by reducing air pollution in 2010. A study found 

4 that approximately $1.3 trillion, or nine percent 

5 of the GDP, was gained in public health and 

6 environmental health benefits for a cost of 50 

7 billion, or .4 of GDP. 

8 This reduced pollution lead to less 

9 illness, less days lost in school, less days lost 

10 in work. So it's good for the economy. 

11 Less disabilities and disability and 

12 deaths, less money in our healthcare system 

13 spent, as well as reduced hospitalizations and 

14 other related healthcare costs. And finally it 

15 increased the size of the economy. And this is a 

16 study by Goodstein in 2010. 

17 Carbon pollution is a key contributor to 

18 climate change. These changes have resulted in a 

19 wide range of health issues, including an 

20 increase in vector borne disease. We're seeing 

21 an expansion of ranges of several vectors such as 

22 ticks and malaria, cardio-respiratory disease, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
22

1 water borne disease, and for many impacted by 

2 extreme weather events, mental health issues. 

3 We're seeing an increase in Post-Traumatic Stress 

4 Disorder, particularly those areas hit by 

5 hurricanes, such as Hurricane Sandy and Katrina.

6 As was mentioned earlier, children are 

7 particularly vulnerable to poor air quality. As 

8 a former member of EPA's Children's Health 

9 Protection Advisory Committee, we worked 

10 diligently to support EPA's efforts to protect 

11 our children and communities from power plant 

12 pollution. As noted earlier, children are much 

13 more susceptible to health effects of air 

14 pollution because their lungs are still 

15 developing and they often spend more time 

16 outdoors than adults.

17 Millions of children every year suffer 

18 from asthma. Right here in the District we're 

19 seeing a significant increase in children, 

20 particularly African-American children who are 

21 hospitalized as a result of poor air quality and 

22 ozone pollution.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
23

1 Any increases in smog and ozone will 

2 ultimately mean more childhood asthma attacks and 

3 life-long issues with respiratory health. 

4 Americans support strong limits on power 

5 pollution from power plants, according to a 

6 bipartisan survey conducted by the American Lung 

7 Association. Voters strongly supported EPA's 

8 efforts to update clean air protections. An 

9 astounding 72 percent of voters surveyed 

10 specifically want EPA to set limits on power 

11 plant carbon pollution. And a two-to-one 

12 majority believes that strengthening safeguards 

13 against pollution will create, not destroy jobs, 

14 by encouraging innovation and quite frankly 

15 keeping people well enough so that they can do 

16 their jobs.

17 In closing I would like to underscore 

18 that the proposed carbon standard supports the 

19 mission of the EPA, which is to protect human 

20 health and the environment, and it would move us 

21 closer towards improving the public's health. 

22 Thank you for this opportunity to share my 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
24

1 comments. 

2 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, Dr. Anderko. 

3 Any questions? Bill?

4 MR. STEVENS: No, not today.

5 MS. ANDERKO: Okay.

6 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

7 Okay. Our next two speakers will be 

8 Andrew Knudsen and Sean Hollihan. And I will 

9 apologize to everyone with pronunciation. If I 

10 mess up your name, please accept my apologies. 

11 Andrew, you --

12 MR. KNUDSEN: Mr. Wayland was actually 

13 right-on.

14 MR. WAYLAND: Okay.

15 MR. KNUDSEN: Good morning. My name is 

16 Andrew Knudsen, K-N-U-D-S-E-N. And I'm an 

17 attorney with the law firm of Hunton and 

18 Williams. 

19 I'm here today on behalf of the Utility 

20 Air Regulatory Group, or UARG, which is a not for 

21 profit association of electric generating 

22 companies and organizations and national trade 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
25

1 associations. UARG's purpose is to participate 

2 on behalf of its members collectively in EPA rule 

3 makings and other Clean Air Act proceedings that 

4 affect the interest of electric generators and in 

5 litigation arising from those proceedings.

6 UARG proposes this repurposed NSPS for 

7 electric generating units. And my statement 

8 today briefly outlines just a few of UARG's 

9 objections. UARG plans to submit detailed 

10 written comments that will more comprehensively 

11 explain its reasons for opposing this proposed 

12 rule.

13 First, EPA bases the proposed standard 

14 for new coal-fired units on carbon capture and 

15 storage, or CCS, which it assert is the best 

16 system of emission reduction that has been 

17 adequately demonstrated for coal-fired units. It 

18 is not. 

19 There is not a single commercial scale 

20 coal-fired power plant in operation anywhere in 

21 the world that captures and sequesters carbon 

22 dioxide with CCS. EPA cannot determine that a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
26

1 technology is adequately demonstrated for 

2 reducing CO2 emissions from these units when a 

3 project to demonstrate that technology has yet to 

4 operate.

5 The projects EPA cites as evidence that 

6 CCS is adequately demonstrated, are not 

7 operational and; therefore, demonstrate nothing. 

8 Furthermore, even if EPA could base a 

9 performance standard on the application of a 

10 technology that is yet to operate, three of the 

11 four projects EPA cites to support its 

12 determination have received subsidies under the 

13 Energy Policy Act of 2005 and tax credits, which 

14 prohibits EPA from considering such projects and 

15 making an adequately demonstrated determination. 

16 EPA cannot rely on these three projects at all, 

17 and must withdraw its proposal for this reason 

18 alone. 

19 The remaining project EPA cites is in 

20 Canada, is heavily subsidized by the Canadian 

21 Government and is also not operational. Not only 

22 is EPA precluded from relying on a project that 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
27

1 is not operational, but if this project were to 

2 become operational, EPA could not rely on it 

3 without first analyzing the unique electric grid 

4 and environmental regulatory constraints that 

5 coal-fired units face in the United States; 

6 constraints which may preclude any future 

7 reliance on this Canadian project.

8 Second, EPA's proposed standard of 

9 performance for natural gas-fired stationary 

10 combustion turbines is also unsupported. The 

11 proposed standard of 1,000 pounds of carbon 

12 dioxide per megawatt hour, does not represent the 

13 performance of the category as a whole under the 

14 range of relevant conditions affecting carbon 

15 dioxide emissions from natural gas-fired units.

16 UARG will provide, as part of its written 

17 comments, a report that analyzes data on carbon 

18 dioxide emissions from recently built combined 

19 cycle gas-fired units, operating at various duty 

20 cycles. These emissions data support a higher 

21 standard.

22 Third, the proposal is arbitrary and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
28

1 capricious if, as EPA claims, the standard will 

2 not accomplish anything. Section 301(a) of the 

3 Clean Air Act provides that the administrator is 

4 authorized to prescribe such regulations as are 

5 necessary to carry out her functions under the 

6 act. And Section 111(b)(1)(b) states that the 

7 administrator need not review a standard if she 

8 determines that such review is not appropriate in 

9 light of readily available information as to the 

10 efficacy of such standard.

11 Here, the administrator has determined 

12 that this proposed rule will result in negligible 

13 CO2 emission changes, quantified benefits, and 

14 costs by 2022. In other words, EPA has found 

15 that the standard will not advance the objective 

16 of reducing greenhouse gasses or combating 

17 climate change. It is by EPA's own admission 

18 neither necessary nor efficacious. EPA lacks 

19 authority to promulgate a standard that 

20 accomplishes nothing.

21 Finally, EPA is required to make a new 

22 endangerment finding and a new cause or 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
29

1 contribute significantly finding before proposing 

2 these new regulations.

3 In 2009 EPA found that six greenhouse 

4 gasses collectively endanger public health and 

5 welfare. And EPA further found that greenhouse 

6 gas emissions from new motor vehicles and engines 

7 contribute to that endangerment. 

8 Before EPA can regulate emissions of 

9 carbon dioxide specifically, EPA must make a new 

10 endangerment finding for carbon dioxide alone. 

11 EPA must also make a separate finding that 

12 emissions of carbon dioxide from the sources to 

13 be regulated here, which are only a portion of 

14 electric generating units, cause or contribute 

15 significantly to air pollution that may 

16 reasonably be anticipated to endanger public 

17 health or welfare. 

18 EPA has not made, and cannot make these 

19 findings here. Furthermore, even if it could, 

20 EPA has already conceded that the proposed 

21 standards will not reduce CO2 emissions and; 

22 therefore, cannot address the proposed 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
30

1 endangerment.

2 UARG will be glad to respond to any 

3 further questions from the EPA, and I thank you 

4 for the opportunity to comment today.

5 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, sir. Questions?

6 MR. STEVENS: Just one, sir, on your use 

7 of the word commercial. Could you give me 

8 another couple sentences on your meaning?

9 MR. KNUDSEN: Well, unfortunately I'm not 

10 prepared today to provide testimony on our 

11 definition of commercial, but that will be 

12 addressed in our written comments.

13 MR. STEVENS: Very good. Thanks.

14 MR. WAYLAND: Question?

15 MR. FELLNER: In your written comments, 

16 will they have for the coal plants, what you 

17 would consider the best demonstrative technology 

18 if -- you're saying carbon would not -- are you 

19 going to provide an alternative of what, in your 

20 opinion, would be?

21 MR. KNUDSEN: I don't believe I'm 

22 prepared to respond to that question either.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
31

1 MR. FELLNER: Okay. All right. Thank 

2 you.

3 MR. KNUDSEN: Thank you.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Sean?

5 MR. HOLLIHAN: Good morning. 

6 MR. WAYLAND: Good morning.

7 MR. HOLLIHAN: My name is Sean Hollihan, 

8 and I work with the Healthy Air Coalition, the 

9 American Lung Association in Virginia. 

10 I stand before you today in support of 

11 your proposed carbon pollution standards for 

12 newer power plants. Finalizing these standards 

13 is essential to protecting the health of people 

14 in Virginia and across the country.

15 The American Lung Association's Healthy 

16 Air Campaign has brought together a strong 

17 coalition of public health groups and medical 

18 professionals to spread the word about the impact 

19 that air pollution has on public health. 

20 Together we've supported protections that limit 

21 many of the most dangerous pollutants that form 

22 from emissions from power plants, including 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
32

1 mercury and air toxics, ground-level ozone, and 

2 particle pollution.

3 Now we have to finalize the first ever 

4 limits on power plant carbon pollution to 

5 continue working toward healthy air and 

6 protecting public health. 

7 Climate change is the greatest public 

8 health threat of our time. The science is clear 

9 that the buildup of carbon pollution will create 

10 warmer temperatures, which could, in turn, 

11 increase the risk of unhealthy levels of ozone 

12 pollution. More ozone means more asthma attacks 

13 and complications from lung disease, especially 

14 for our most vulnerable populations.

15 Virginia has more than 150,000 children 

16 and 540,000 adults with asthma. The Commonwealth 

17 is also home to more than 380,000 people with 

18 chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. They're 

19 all at greater risk of missed days of work and 

20 school, emergency room visits, hospitalizations, 

21 and premature death from health problems caused 

22 by ozone pollution.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
33

1 Virginia's children, senior citizens, and 

2 people living in poverty are also particularly 

3 vulnerable. We've also already had a smog 

4 problem in Virginia. Every year the American 

5 Lung Association releases our State of the Air 

6 Report, which uses EPA data to give letter grades 

7 to our cities and counties for their levels of 

8 ozone.

9 In the most recent report, we received 

10 failing grades for ozone levels in parts of 

11 Northern Virginia, the Richmond Metro area, and 

12 Southeastern Virginia. 

13 The good news is that our state is making 

14 real gains in reducing our ozone levels. 

15 However, climate change could undo the progress 

16 we're making.

17 The American Lung Association in Virginia 

18 has spent the past year and a half building our 

19 coalition of health groups and medical 

20 professionals. What we found is that doctors, 

21 nurses, respiratory therapists, public health 

22 experts, and patients all understand the terrible 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
34

1 toll that ozone takes on public health. That's 

2 why they've joined us in supporting the proposed 

3 carbon pollution standards for new power plants. 

4 Last month we were joined by eight other 

5 Virginia medical practices and health 

6 organizations when we called on our members of 

7 congress to uphold EPA's authority to cut carbon 

8 pollution. 

9 These partners are spread throughout the 

10 Commonwealth. The local Health Care Council of 

11 the National Capitol Area, the Central Virginia 

12 Asthma Coalition in Richmond, Community Health 

13 Charities of Virginia and Newport News, the 

14 Health Individuals Through Prevention and 

15 Education Coalition in Lynchburg, clinics in 

16 Roanoke and Danville, a lung disease group in 

17 Fredericksburg, and more. Mayors, city council 

18 members, members of boards of supervisors all 

19 throughout Virginia have also publically signed 

20 on to these efforts. 

21 The support we've seen in Virginia is 

22 consistent with the results of national polls as 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
35

1 well. Americans are in favor of strong limits of 

2 pollution from power plants. According to a 

3 bipartisan survey conducted for the American Lung 

4 Association, voters strongly support EPA's 

5 efforts to update clean air protections. 

6 Seventy-two percent of voters surveyed 

7 specifically want EPA to set limits on power 

8 plant carbon pollution.

9 People also don't believe that we have to 

10 choose between public health and a strong 

11 economy. According to the same poll, 73 percent 

12 of voters say that we can achieve both.

13 In a two-to-one majority, 60 to 31 

14 percent, believe that strengthening safeguards 

15 against pollution will create, not destroy, jobs 

16 by encouraging innovation.

17 Our healthy air coalition is committed to 

18 educating Virginians about the impacts of air 

19 pollution on their health and convincing our 

20 decision makers to strengthen protections against 

21 these pollutants. We call on EPA to finalize its 

22 proposed carbon pollution standards for new power 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
36

1 plants into law. It's the next step in our 

2 progress towards healthy air for all. Thank you 

3 very much.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, sir. Any 

5 questions? 

6 MR. STEVENS: Not for me. Thank you very 

7 much.

8 MR. HOLLIHAN: Thank you very much. 

9 Thank you.

10 MR. WAYLAND: Okay. Our next two 

11 speakers will be Sam Lockhart and Jane Difenbach. 

12 They may be in the other room.

13 For those of you that just joined us, we 

14 have had some people notify us of travel delays 

15 this morning. So there may be some shuffling of 

16 names. 

17 Okay. We'll hear from Barbara Gottlieb. 

18 MS. GOTTLIEB: Good morning. My name is 

19 Barbara Gottlieb. I'm Director of Environment 

20 and Health at Physicians for Social 

21 Responsibility, a national organization of 50,000 

22 physicians, nurses, public health professionals, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
37

1 and citizen supporters. 

2 On their behalf I thank the Environmental 

3 Protection Agency for its work to place limits on 

4 carbon emissions from new power plants, and for 

5 this opportunity to comment on those proposed 

6 rules.

7 Science has established that climate 

8 change is real, it is happening now, and burning 

9 fossil fuels is a major cause. Thus, in order to 

10 slow and ultimately reverse climate change, we 

11 need to reduce carbon emissions from fossil fuel 

12 plants. 

13 Climate change is often characterized as 

14 an environmental problem. Let me present it to 

15 you as a health problem, in fact, one of the 

16 greatest threats to human health and survival in 

17 the world today.

18 Because time is brief, I'll touch on just 

19 four ways that climate change kills. I'll start 

20 with heat effects and extreme weather events. As 

21 world temperatures increase intense heat waves 

22 become more common and extreme heat kills more 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
38

1 U.S. residents than lightening, tornados, floods, 

2 and earthquakes combined. 

3 Exposure to prolonged extreme heat, as in 

4 a heat wave, can cause heat cramps, then heat 

5 exhaustion, then heat-stroke, which can be fatal. 

6 The Chicago heat wave of 1995 killed over 

7 700 people. The European heat wave of 2003 

8 killed an unimaginable 35,000 to 75,000 people. 

9 Estimates vary. 

10 Heat also increases the formation of 

11 ground-level ozone which triggers asthma and 

12 exacerbates heart and lung disease. Heat also 

13 contributes to wildfires which, of course, can 

14 kill outright; but, which also release 

15 particulate matter, a dangerous respiratory 

16 irritant, as well as carcinogenic hydrocarbons.

17 Extreme weather events are also 

18 increasing in frequency with climate change. 

19 We've witnessed the devastating effects of 

20 Hurricanes Katrina and Sandy, drownings and 

21 deaths, hospitals evacuated, patients carried 

22 down dark staircases, displacement, homelessness, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
39

1 Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. 

2 Even small storms cause flooding and 

3 contaminate water with toxic chemicals and 

4 sewage, which can cause outbreaks of 

5 cryptosporidium, e-coli, giardia, shigella, 

6 typhoid, hepatitis A. While the U.S. generally 

7 enjoys reliable sources of potable water, 

8 contamination of recreational waters from extreme 

9 weather events remains a significant means of 

10 disease transmission. 

11 Climate change also increases the threat 

12 of insect-borne diseases. Insect hosts and the 

13 infectious agents they carry are cold-blooded, so 

14 they respond to temperature in many ways. 

15 Temperature changes may shift their geographic 

16 ranges; seems to be happening with the deer tick, 

17 the carrier of Lyme disease.

18 Mosquitoes, which carry malaria, dengue 

19 fever, West Nile virus, and other diseases are 

20 highly sensitive to temperature changes. Higher 

21 temperatures boost their reproductive rates, make 

22 them bite more frequently. If you live in 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
40

1 Washington you believe that. Lengthen their 

2 breeding season, and shorten the time it takes 

3 for the pathogens they bear to reach an 

4 infectious state. Globaling malaria is a major 

5 killer, especially of children. 

6 Finally, climate change is threatening 

7 the Earth's ability to produce food. Estimates 

8 vary, but experts predict that for every 1.8 

9 degree Fahrenheit increase in global average 

10 surface temperature, we can expect about a 10 

11 percent decline in yields of the world's major 

12 grains, corn, soy beans, rice, and wheat.

13 In some plants like wheat, soy beans, and 

14 rice, higher CO2 levels actually increase plant 

15 growth. But most experts agree that the CO2-

16 related benefits will be outweighed by the 

17 negative effects of higher temperatures, which 

18 decrease rates of photosynthesis, reduce soil 

19 moisture, increase water demand, and lead to 

20 increased survival of plant pests, diseases, and 

21 weeds, all which combine to reduce crop yields.

22 Most models looking at food production 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
41

1 only consider the effect of rising temperature 

2 and CO2 levels. Yet climate change will also 

3 disrupt food production in other ways, such as 

4 more droughts, more frequent severe, and longer 

5 lasting heat waves, damaging rains and storms, 

6 reduced water available for irrigation, soil 

7 salination from rising sea levels and storm 

8 surges, thriving plant pests and diseases, and 

9 higher ozone levels that damage plants and reduce 

10 crop yields. 

11 That is not the world we want for 

12 ourselves, for our children, for our patients, 

13 for our communities. It's vital that the EPA, to 

14 protect our health and wellbeing from the ravages 

15 of climate change, set the strongest possible 

16 limits on carbon pollution from power plants. 

17 In addition, we urge you to encourage the 

18 states, as they establish the best systems for 

19 emissions reductions, to increase energy 

20 efficiency and expand their use of solar, wind, 

21 and other renewable energy sources. That is the 

22 way to a bright future; one that reduces climate 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
42

1 disruption, cuts conventional pollutants, and 

2 provides great gains to the health of all of us. 

3 Thank you.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Any 

5 questions?

6 MR. STEVENS: Just one quickly. How many 

7 members do you have in positions for public 

8 health?

9 MS. GOTTLIEB: We have 50,000 members and 

10 supporters.

11 MR. STEVENS: Thank you.

12 MS. GOTTLIEB: We have also, 24 chapters 

13 across the country and 14 student chapters.

14 MR. WAYLAND: Question? No? Thank you 

15 very much. You can leave your -- here on the 

16 corner. We'll make sure the court reporter gets 

17 it. Yes. Thank you very much.

18 Our next two speakers will be Jane 

19 Difenbach and John Ellwood.

20 MS. DIFENBACH: Hi, good morning. My 

21 name is Jane Difenbach and I’m here on behalf of 

22 myself. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
43

1 Thank you for your time today to take my 

2 statement in support of stringent standards for 

3 carbon emissions for existing power plants in the 

4 U.S.

5 I'm thankful for all the people here 

6 today to document all the ways --

7 MR. WAYLAND: Could you use the other 

8 microphone?

9 MS. DIFENBACH: The other microphone.

10 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you.

11 MS. DIFENBACH: All the ways that climate 

12 change and climate chaos will create harm. But 

13 I'm here to speak from the heart today.

14 I'm a middle-aged mother of two grown 

15 children. I work as a clinical research 

16 scientist on a variety of diseases, including 

17 tuberculosis, the second ranked killer among 

18 diseases globally, and a latent but persistent 

19 threat in the U.S. still.

20 I take my work very seriously, but more 

21 and more days I get up wondering why I would work 

22 anything other than raising awareness of the harm 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
44

1 of climate change, and the threat that's coming 

2 with it. Because without a course correction on

3 climate change, nothing will matter. Certainly 

4 not tuberculosis cures in developing countries, 

5 because TB will be the least of the problems that 

6 poor people have to deal with once climate change 

7 disrupts their lives and ours.

8 You don't need to be a climate scientist 

9 to see that we've got a problem. The drought in 

10 California is only the latest of predictable 

11 environmental tragedies unfolding worldwide. I'm 

12 scared for you and your children and 

13 grandchildren, for me and my children and 

14 grandchildren, but mostly for people who don't 

15 live in Washington, D.C. or North America, who 

16 will bear the brunt of climate change.

17 I hear two main arguments against the EPA 

18 taking action to curb carbon dioxide emissions. 

19 One of them is that jobs will be lost. I was at 

20 a hearing here on November 7th when Mitch 

21 McConnell delivered this argument for the hearing 

22 about carbon dioxide emissions for new power 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
45

1 plants. And I would never dismiss the problem of 

2 rural people finding work in Kentucky. But on 

3 that day that Senator McConnell was arguing that 

4 14,000 jobs would be lost, Typhoon Haiyan was 

5 hitting land and reeking the destruction that we 

6 all know happened afterward in the Philippines, 

7 where thousands of people lost their lives and 

8 hundreds of thousands had their lives completely 

9 undone.

10 The other argument I hear is that the 

11 problem is not with the U.S., it's with Asia. 

12 After all, China is the new leader in overall CO2

13 emissions, and growing rapidly. 

14 Two documents on the fridge serve as 

15 reminders and the problems with this argument. 

16 One is a map of where the world's people live be 

17 economic status. You can't see it probably, but 

18 maybe you'll be able to just get a general sense 

19 of it. 

20 This map has wealth coded in color. Blue 

21 is for high, purple to red for middle, orange to 

22 pale yellow for low economic status. Big 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
46

1 populations are represented by solid colors. 

2 Small ones look like dots. North America is blue 

3 dots. Western Europe, Japan, parts of the 

4 Arabian Peninsula are also blue. 

5 But look how sparse North America is. 

6 It's sparsely dispersed well. Compare this to 

7 Central Africa and Southeast Asia where solid 

8 swaths of orange to tan show huge populations 

9 living in poverty. 

10 It's a daily reminder of the unequal 

11 distribution of wealth. And when I look at this, 

12 my feelings turn more to guilt than pride. The 

13 other document I brought with me, and I keep it 

14 at the ready to start conversations in my own 

15 household and get all the young people passing 

16 through to think about this issue, is the World 

17 Bank Report of per-capita CO2 emissions.

18 At 17 metric tons per-capita per year, 

19 the U.S. is the second biggest carbon polluter in 

20 the world, just behind Canada, and just ahead of 

21 Saudi Arabia. 

22 Per-capita emissions in the U.S. are two 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
47

1 times, or higher than Western European countries, 

2 four times higher than Mexico, seven times higher 

3 than Brazil, 10 times higher than India, and 40 

4 times higher than Bangladesh. The U.S. emits 

5 twice as much carbon per-capital as China.

6 From a moral standpoint, it doesn't 

7 matter that China emits more carbon dioxide than 

8 the U.S. because we're using more than our share. 

9 We can and should be even with Europe, but over 

10 and over we sit on the sidelines refusing to 

11 participate in global agreements to limit carbon 

12 emissions. And now we find ourselves at three 

13 times the emissions of the U.K. and France, and 

14 two times Germany. We've not been a good 

15 neighbor, we have not played fair, we have not 

16 been moral.

17 Limits on carbon emissions for existing 

18 power plants is a step in the right direction for 

19 Americans to regain moral ground. I urge you to 

20 make them tough and enforceable. Let's get this 

21 done and let's move on to other ways of thinking 

22 about conservation and renewable energy. Time is 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
48

1 precious and we need your leadership. The 

2 standard for what's acceptable in our city and 

3 our country needs to change now.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you. Questions? 

5 MR. STEVENS: None for me. Thank you 

6 very much.

7 MR. WAYLAND: Questions? 

8 MR. FELLNER: No, thank you.

9 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much.

10 Mr. Elwood.

11 MR. ELWOOD: Thank you, gentlemen. My 

12 name is John Elwood. I'm speaking to you today 

13 as an elder and a teacher in the Presbyterian 

14 Church. I'm speaking as the editor of the 

15 website BelovedPlanet.com, and as participant in 

16 the Environmental Stewardship Initiative of the 

17 Christian Reformed Church. 

18 My farm in Andover, New Jersey provides 

19 produce for more than 700 families. And I thank 

20 you for giving me the opportunity to testify in 

21 support of the EPA's carbon emission standards 

22 for new power plants.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
49

1 An important question for Christians, and 

2 I think for all people of goodwill, is this: How 

3 much carbon pollution should power plants be 

4 permitted to dump into the atmosphere for others 

5 to pay for both in health and in climate 

6 disruption costs? 

7 Now from an evangelical and reformed 

8 Christian perspective, it's clearly wrong for a 

9 buyer and a seller to enjoy all the benefits of a 

10 transaction, but then leave a substantial part of 

11 the cost for innocent third-parties to bear the 

12 external costs. 

13 The scriptures of the Old and New 

14 Testaments don't speak of external costs by that 

15 name. But God pronounces judgment on other 

16 things that are analogous to it in our day. 

17 Dishonest scales, skimping on the measure, mixing 

18 the sweepings with the wheat. 

19 "The Lord has sworn by himself," says the 

20 Profit Amos, "I will never forget what they have 

21 done. I will spare them no longer."

22 Until recently, now, we didn't know the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
50

1 scale of the external costs of coal burning. But 

2 as you know, in 2010, the U.S. National Academy 

3 of Science quantified these costs in their study 

4 titled "The hidden cost of energy". I thought 

5 that their findings were shocking. Coal burned 

6 in a single year by U.S. power plants costs 

7 everyone else on the planet another $200 to $300 

8 billion in unpriced external costs. That's a tax 

9 of about $40 levied on every single human on 

10 Earth. Only for U.S. coal, only for one single 

11 year, borne by men and women, adults and 

12 children, and by both the rich and those earning 

13 less than $1 a day.

14 During these hearings you've heard 

15 testimony from people engaged in the coal 

16 industry, and you've been asked to consider the 

17 toll that they will bear if new power plants are 

18 made to limit their carbon pollution. 

19 Christians of all traditions take their 

20 plight seriously and our society must find ways 

21 to help effected communities recover. But I 

22 would like to ask you to consider the plight of 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
51

1 totally innocent communities; communities both in 

2 our country and elsewhere in the world, which 

3 receive no benefit whatsoever from the burning of 

4 coal.

5 Last year the Christian Reformed Church 

6 sent me and a delegation of other leaders to 

7 Kenya to hear firsthand from people who are 

8 bearing the brunt of external costs from carbon 

9 pollution. We met with hundreds of small farmers 

10 and community leaders. And everywhere the story 

11 was exactly the same. Two reliable growing 

12 seasons had shrunk to one. And even that one 

13 remaining growing season had become unreliable, 

14 both characterized by drought and by flooding.

15 Crop yields, of course, have plummeted, 

16 and water in Kenya is more scarce than ever. We 

17 also visited with Reverend Peter Colanga, the 

18 General Secretary of the Kenyan Council of 

19 Churches. Please listen to what this good man 

20 had to say.

21 "We are very concerned," he said, 

22 "especially about America. They are the most 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
52

1 obstinate country when it comes to climate 

2 change. You have a responsibility to reduce your 

3 greenhouse gasses which are harming the rest of 

4 the world. Long after your life is over," he 

5 told us, "your actions will have consequences on 

6 us. Many of them will be harmful consequences."

7 That's the end of his quote.

8 On behalf of all people who bear the cost 

9 of carbon pollution from American power plants, 

10 our citizens, our children, the people of Kenya, 

11 plus many more, I urge the EPA to finally 

12 implement standards aimed at reducing carbon 

13 emissions from new power plants. Thank you and 

14 may God bless your efforts.

15 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

16 Questions? 

17 MR. STEVENS: Not for me, thank you.

18 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, both. Our next 

19 two speakers this morning will be Terence Ellen 

20 and Eric Holdsworth.

21 MR. HOLDSWORTH: Thank you. Good 

22 morning, and thank you for the opportunity to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
53

1 make this statement. My name is Eric Holdsworth 

2 and I'm speaking on behalf of the Edison Electric 

3 Institute, or EEI. 

4 EEI is the trade association that 

5 represents all U.S. investor and utilities. Our 

6 members provide electricity for 220 million 

7 Americans, operating in all 50 states and the 

8 District of Columbia, and directly employ more 

9 than half a million workers. Reliable, 

10 affordable, and sustainable electricity powers 

11 the economy and enhances the lives of all 

12 Americans.

13 EEI will be submitting detailed comments 

14 on the reproposed greenhouse gas performance 

15 standards for new electric generating units. My 

16 remarks today will focus on three key concerns.

17 One, the ability of natural gas units to 

18 comply with the standards under normal operating 

19 conditions, especially as more renewable 

20 resources are integrated into the grid.

21 Two, the lack of an explicit exemption 

22 for simple cycle units.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
54

1 Three, EPA's determination that carbon 

2 capture and storage, or CCS, has been adequately 

3 demonstrated for coal-based EG use at this time.

4 While EPA has proposed a separate 

5 standard for coal, it has not created a workable 

6 pathway for coal-fired units going forward, given 

7 the costs and other barriers to CCS. 

8 Let me briefly elaborate. Regarding the 

9 proposed standards for natural gas units, we 

10 appreciate EPA's creation of a separate standard 

11 of 1,100 pounds per megawatt hour for smaller 

12 units in response to numerous concerns raised 

13 with the standards as initially proposed. And we 

14 appreciate the modification of the methods for 

15 compliance determination. These revisions do 

16 appear to address some of the concerns cited in 

17 our June, 2012, comments.

18 Nonetheless, concerns remain with the 

19 ability of new plants to meet the proposed 

20 standards. Increased penetration of renewables 

21 in the future will cause natural gas units to 

22 cycle even more frequently to support the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
55

1 increased integration of these resources into the 

2 grid. Natural gas combined cycle units should 

3 not be subject to unachievable standards that do 

4 not consider the range of normal operating 

5 conditions.

6 These concerns are reflected in some of 

7 the recently issued greenhouse gas backed limits 

8 for several recent projects. Several of these 

9 projects are cited at levels that are above the 

10 proposed standard, further demonstrating that at 

11 least some new plants may have trouble meeting 

12 the proposed levels.

13 We urge EPA to consider raising the 

14 standard for small and large units to 1,100 

15 pounds per megawatt hour in order to ensure that 

16 new units can meet the standards, while helping 

17 to integrate the increased renewable resources 

18 into the grid, which is the overall objective 

19 that EPA and the Administration are seeking to 

20 achieve.

21 At a minimum, EPA must not lower the 

22 standards as some stakeholders are advocating.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
56

1 Regarding simple cycle combustion 

2 turbines, we remain supportive of an explicit 

3 exemption as described in the 2012 proposal. 

4 These units ramp up quickly to support renewable 

5 integration into the grid and provide other 

6 services to support -- to ensure power 

7 reliability by quickly responding to load demands 

8 and other system conditions. Thus, it is vital 

9 that these units be available.

10 We appreciate that EPA appears to have 

11 tried to address the importance of simple cycle 

12 units in maintaining reliability with proposed 

13 changes to the applicability criteria.

14 Further, our initial analysis suggests 

15 that the draft standards appear to exempt most 

16 simple cycle units. However, EPA's proposal 

17 creates much uncertainty as to how these units 

18 will be regulated. An explicit exemption would 

19 provide needed clarity.

20 Finally, we continue to object to EPA's 

21 determination that CCS has been adequately 

22 demonstrated for coal-based electric generating 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
57

1 units at this time. CCS is widely considered not 

2 to be commercially available because it has not 

3 yet been adequately demonstrated at utility 

4 scale, has not been integrated with electricity 

5 production and is not economically feasible at 

6 this time.

7 Demonstration is the key factor in 

8 bringing down the costs of CCS, and this rule 

9 will hinder further CCS development by creating 

10 regulatory disincentives to new projects. Given 

11 the costs and other barriers to CCS, EPA's 

12 proposed separate standard for coal does not 

13 create a workable pathway for coal-fired units 

14 going forward. Even EPA has acknowledged that 

15 CCS may be economically infeasible for most 

16 units.

17 As noted in our 2012 comments, the value 

18 of a separate standard is not just to ensure a 

19 diverse portfolio of generating fuels, but to 

20 ensure that there are economic alternatives, 

21 should the price of natural gas increase. Coal 

22 with CCS is not currently able to provide a hedge 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
58

1 against rising natural gas prices. Therefore, we 

2 reiterate our call for EPA to set the separate 

3 coal-based standard at a level that does not 

4 require CCS. 

5 Further, CCS should not be deemed the 

6 best system of emission reduction for new natural 

7 gas units, which is a conclusion reached 

8 repeatedly in GHG backed analyses for new natural 

9 gas units. 

10 I thank you for your attention.

11 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

12 I had one question. You mentioned your 

13 upcoming written comments to the docket, and you 

14 talked about some recent backed determinations. 

15 Will that information be included in EEI's 

16 written comments?

17 MR. HOLDSWORTH: Yes. 

18 MR. WAYLAND: Okay.

19 MR. HOLDSWORTH: There will be much more 

20 detailed information on all these points, 

21 including all those units.

22 MR. WAYLAND: Great. Thank you very 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
59

1 much. Bill, any question?

2 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you very much. 

3 MR. WAYLAND: Chris?

4 MR. FELLNER: No. 

5 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

6 Terence? 

7 MR. ELLEN: I’m the Reverend Dr. Terence 

8 Ellen, speaking on behalf of Interfaith Moral 

9 Action on Climate. And also on behalf of 

10 Unitarian and Universalists for Social Justice in 

11 the National Capital Region. 

12 We endorse the strictest standards you 

13 can set for CO2 emissions from new power plants. 

14 But the arguments I offer are moral, not 

15 technical. There are three, and I appreciate 

16 your technical stuff. I'm not going to be 

17 dealing with that.

18 First, the atmosphere, the air, was given 

19 to all of us by a power greater than all of us. 

20 It was not given to certain corporations to use 

21 for profit while passing on the costs to the rest 

22 of us. We require restaurants to dispose of 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
60

1 their garbage. Power plants should not throw 

2 their trash out for free.

3 Personally I've raised my family on the 

4 east coast and lived with the knowledge that 

5 completely irresponsible plants in the Midwest 

6 were forcing the people I most dearly love to 

7 breathe in their voluminous emissions. Air 

8 pollution has never respected state boundaries 

9 and so standards must be federal and they come 

10 down to you.

11 I also know that with almost without 

12 exception, at least in my experience, past 

13 industry protests about tighter public health or 

14 public safety standards ruining them economically 

15 have been overstated and have not come to pass. 

16 Rather, as best I know, always higher industry 

17 standards have led to prosperity and the public 

18 good. 

19 Please, please do not be misled by cries 

20 of financial ruin from industry. It is an old 

21 ploy and it should be bankrupt as an argument 

22 based upon all past experience.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
61

1 Secondly, it is absolutely essential that 

2 new power plants in our country meet the highest 

3 standards for CO2 emissions. Given the huge 

4 percentage of our national CO2 emissions coming 

5 from our power plants, given the fact that 

6 whatever standards we set now will be the 

7 standards well into the future when things will 

8 only become more dire, and given that we all 

9 know, or should know unless we're burying our 

10 heads in the sand, what rising CO2 levels are 

11 doing to us and to the other species all over the 

12 world. This is an historic opportunity and 

13 moment to appropriately address our irresponsible 

14 and selfish CO2 emissions.

15 The whole world is watching to see if we, 

16 said to be the last and greatest hope of 

17 humankind, will live up to our reputation and the 

18 great hope that is placed in us as a free 

19 country. 

20 Our past standards with our naivete, 

21 ignorance, and placement of profit before public 

22 good is one thing. The future, with all of our 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
62

1 children and theirs hanging in the balance, is 

2 another. We know better now. Or we surely 

3 should.

4 Thirdly, and lastly, meeting the urgent 

5 crisis of climate change by among other things, 

6 limiting our CO2 emissions, is without doubt the 

7 greatest moral issue and task of our time. 

8 Everything else pales before it because of the 

9 gigantic long-term consequences to the most 

10 vulnerable humans among us, to the whole 

11 miraculous and infinitely nuanced biological 

12 diversity of species, and to our own kids and 

13 theirs. 

14 You, as those called to protect the wider 

15 public good, you as those charged with standing 

16 up for the wider long-term view when others will 

17 look not far beyond their own noses, you hold now 

18 a precious charge and perspective. Please, on 

19 behalf of all those who cannot be here today, on 

20 behalf of all the voices who depend upon you to 

21 stand up for their good, keep the wider 

22 perspective in mind. Do not allow yourselves to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
63

1 be swamped by the immediate concerns of those out 

2 to make money, or who are interested only in the 

3 immediate present. Time on this issue of climate 

4 change is very short. And you, as well as all of 

5 us, must address it with the overriding 

6 seriousness that it deserves.

7 Thank you for your time and I hope by all 

8 that -- in God's name and all that is holy, that 

9 you uphold the integrity of this country and 

10 reduce our climate change emissions. Thank you.

11 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Any 

12 questions?

13 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you, sir.

14 MR. FELLNER: No, thank you.

15 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

16 Our next two speakers will be Reverend M. 

17 Dele and Steven Parks.

18 Reverend Dele?

19 MS. DELE: Yes.

20 MR. WAYLAND: Good morning.

21 MS. DELE: Reverend Marjana Dele. I'm a 

22 steering committee member of Virginia's 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
64

1 Interfaith Power and Light Affiliate. I'm also a 

2 pastor within the United Church of Christ. 

3 Last year our denomination decided to 

4 divest itself of fossil fuel industries at a 

5 national level, demonstrating that we want to do 

6 everything that we can to remove the economic 

7 incentive to smother the Earth. 

8 Our 4,000 members agree with President 

9 Obama that we should serve and preserve the land 

10 as is stated in Genesis, the second chapter, the 

11 16th verse.

12 We also agree with thousands of small 

13 business owners who support carbon pollution 

14 standards because they recognize that our economy 

15 can never be so desperate that we sell off our 

16 children's right to fresh air. 

17 We also agree with the Universal 

18 Declaration of the Rights of Mother Earth, which 

19 says that the inherent right of Mother Earth 

20 includes the right to clean air, and the right to 

21 be free from pollution and toxic waste. For as 

22 we treat Mother Earth, we treat ourselves.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
65

1 Over 75 percent of African Americans are 

2 treated to a house within 30 miles of the coal3 fired power plant that is spewing unbridled 

4 carbon pollution into the air. 

5 We see racial disparities in carbon 

6 polluting when we realize that an African7 American family making $50,000 a year is more 

8 likely to live near a toxic facility than a 

9 European-American family making $15,000 a year. 

10 This disparity continues in increased rates of 

11 respiratory illnesses in African-Americans. 

12 Even though we have lower rates of 

13 smoking, we are more likely to die of lung 

14 disease. Nationwide African-American children 

15 are five times more likely to die of asthma, and 

16 three times more likely to be admitted to the 

17 hospital for an asthma attack. This is directly 

18 related to unbridled carbon pollution in the air.

19 When combined with other toxins that come 

20 from power plants, such as mercury, arsenic, and 

21 lead, carbon pollution creates a death dome which 

22 hovers over our communities and snuffs out lives 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
66

1 prematurely. Again, it is unbridled carbon 

2 pollution that is the number one driver of 

3 climate change.

4 And we have seen that those most harshly 

5 impacted by climate change are the most 

6 vulnerable members of our society that we are 

7 called to care for. And so we call on the 

8 Environmental Protection agency to please protect 

9 our environment; to pass the carbon pollution 

10 standards so that the death domes hovering over 

11 our communities will stop sending children to the 

12 hospital just because they played outdoors. Some 

13 of these children never come home.

14 So we're asking that you pass these 

15 standards to restore our beautiful spacious skies 

16 so that we all can breathe freely, the breath of 

17 life. 

18 I want to end with a quote from an 

19 African-American spiritual that says, "Keep your 

20 lamp trimmed and burning or this world will soon 

21 be done." 

22 It's a commonsense instruction to tell 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
67

1 you that whether you are burning bees wax or 

2 coal, any time you are burning fuel, you must 

3 remove the soot. You must remove the carbon so 

4 that generating power does not kill you. Thank 

5 you very much.

6 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

7 Questions?

8 MR. STEVENS: No. 

9 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you. Mr. Parks.

10 MR. PARKS: Good day. Thank you for 

11 receiving my testimony. And thank you to the 

12 EPA. 

13 I'm an old codger grew up before the 

14 Clean Air Act and so forth, and I remember the 

15 real horrors of the pollution in the water and 

16 the air. In fact my explorer scout initiation 

17 consisted of having to wade in one of the rivers 

18 in Florida, after which my hair stuck to my skin 

19 because of the pollution.

20 I'm here. I am a member of the Sierra 

21 Club, the Native Plant Society, and I’m a very 

22 avid naturalist. But I'm here to speak against 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
68

1 the ruling. And I guess you could say I'm 

2 representing balanced discourse. 

3 We've heard a lot about carbon dioxide 

4 and the climate change and ozone connections. I 

5 want to remind you that those are tenuous. I'm a 

6 physicist and I see carbon dioxide greenhouse 

7 forcing as possibly responsible for about a half 

8 degree of the total temperature change that we've 

9 seen. The rest is subject to various kinds of 

10 modeling and amplification factors that are in 

11 question.

12 But I will agree that carbon dioxide has 

13 contributed to global warming. That's all I'm 

14 going to say on that matter.

15 I'd like to speak to the more -- the 

16 feasibility of things.

17 The comments already made indicate that 

18 the low price of natural gas, and the proposed 

19 regulations together have pretty much killed any 

20 prospects for building new coal-fired power 

21 plants. And the EPA appears to acknowledge that 

22 in Section 2.1.2 of their technical report, where 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
69

1 they say basically that the regulations will have 

2 no economic impact because natural gas and the 

3 proposals have killed the construction of coal; 

4 therefore, no new plants will be built. 

5 Therefore, the new proposed regulations will have 

6 no economic effect at all and basically cost 

7 society nothing.

8 Well, that may be true, but prices can 

9 change. And I want to talk about that. The zero 

10 argument is the wonderful labor-saving device. 

11 By saying that zero plants will be built, and 

12 therefore there's zero cost, has excused EPA from 

13 doing their math and from justifying on a cost14 effectiveness basis what their rules may do. 

15 Zero times any cost equals zero. Very, very 

16 effective. 

17 I couldn't find anything on the website 

18 about what was the basis for your calculations. 

19 So I went to the electronic -- sorry, the energy 

20 -- what is it? The International Energy Agency. 

21 And according to them, currently 

22 installed fleet of power plants produces carbon 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
70

1 dioxide at the rate of roughly 2,200 pounds per 

2 megawatt hour. 

3 The best newly built supercritical plants 

4 run at about 1,600 pounds of CO2 per kilowatt 

5 hour. And the 1,100 number is just incredibly 

6 far from that and not reachable by anything 

7 currently in existence. 

8 What we need -- we need coal. The recent 

9 winter here has shown that gas cannot be relied 

10 upon to provide stuff. You cut a pipeline or you 

11 have an extremely high demand and suddenly you're 

12 out of the distance. We need coal as a part of 

13 our energy mix for energy security. Therefore, I 

14 recommend that coal plants be allowed to be built 

15 in order to keep our diverse energy security.

16 If you shut down a gas pipeline, the 

17 lights go out. But a coal plant can have a back 

18 yard piled with thousands of tons of fuel and 

19 keep going for a month, even in the case of 

20 accident, sabotage, or some other interruption. 

21 Thank you very much.

22 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Any 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
71

1 questions, Bill or Christian? 

2 MR. STEVENS: Just when you were speaking 

3 for yourself, correct? Is that --

4 MR. PARKS: I am speaking -- no, I am 

5 speaking on behalf of balanced discourse and 

6 myself, yes. 

7 MR. STEVENS: Okay. Thank you. 

8 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you both very much. 

9 Okay. We're going to continue. Our next 

10 two speakers will be Mr. David Donniger and Lih 

11 Young. 

12 And for those of you just joining us, we 

13 need to use both of the microphones. The larger 

14 one in front of David is for the room. The long 

15 one is for the court reporter. So make sure 

16 you're talking into both of them. It will make 

17 sure the transcripts are accurate. 

18 And with that, David.

19 MR. DONNIGER: Thank you very much. 

20 Thanks for the opportunity to speak today on 

21 behalf of NRDC and its 1.4 million members and 

22 online activists in support of your proposal.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
72

1 My name is David Donniger. I'm the 

2 Policy Director of the Climate and Clean Air 

3 Program at NRDC.

4 Several of my NRDC colleagues will 

5 testify later in the day and we'll address 

6 different aspects of the proposal and we'll have 

7 written comments, of course, as well.

8 This is the first big step to implement 

9 the President's Climate Action Plan. The 

10 President has called for action on climate 

11 change, and he set out a specific timetable for 

12 EPA to act under the Clean Air Act on new and 

13 existing power plants. This is the most 

14 important place to act because they are the 

15 nation's biggest drivers of climate change with 

16 more than 2 billion tons of CO2 emissions each 

17 year. We commend EPA for the steps it's taking 

18 on both new and existing power plants to carry 

19 out the President's timetable for action.

20 Your authority and responsibility under 

21 the Clean Air Act are absolutely clear. Supreme 

22 Court upheld your authority twice, Massachusetts 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
73

1 v. EPA, American Electric Power v. Connecticut, 

2 and really a third time in declining to hear 

3 appeals from the power plant -- sorry, the 

4 vehicle standards and the endangerment 

5 determination in the current litigation.

6 So I would like to focus on two major 

7 points. 

8 First, EPA is fully justified in setting 

9 standards for new power plants under Section 

10 111(b). As the proposal notes, EPA has made the 

11 scientific endangerment determination, the D.C. 

12 Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the endangerment 

13 determination, and as I've mentioned, the Supreme 

14 Court refused all challenges to it.

15 Power plants, being responsible for 40 

16 percent of the Nation's CO2 pollution are the 

17 most significant contributor to greenhouse gas 

18 concentrations. And the endangerment 

19 determination coupled with information on the 

20 scale of power plant carbon pollution fully 

21 supports the proposed standard.

22 Second, let me address the question of 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
74

1 categories and subcategories. 

2 111(b) authorizes EPA to define the 

3 industrial category and EPA asks for comment on 

4 several options. 

5 While NRDC supports the current proposal 

6 to set standards for three specific 

7 subcategories, we believe EPA should define the 

8 overall category broadly to reflect the full 

9 scope and character of the Nation's electricity 

10 generating system. This means that in addition 

11 to including the coal and gas-fired units covered 

12 by the current proposal, the category should also 

13 encompass all of the greenhouse gas emitting 

14 facilities that contribute electricity to the 

15 grid, or that generate electricity for use in 

16 facilities that otherwise would be taking 

17 electricity from the grid.

18 Within this electric system category 

19 there is room for EPA to establish appropriate 

20 subcategories. And that's why we supported the 

21 original April, 2012, proposal with a single 

22 standard for coal and gas-fired units. NRDC also 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
75

1 supports the current proposal with the separate 

2 best system of emission reduction, BSER 

3 determinations, or subcategories consisting of 

4 the fossil fuel utility boilers and IGCC units, 

5 and the natural gas combined cycle units. 

6 My colleagues, David Hawkins and Ben 

7 Longstrenth, will speak in more detail about the 

8 appropriate standards for these subcategories. 

9 We think it would make the most logical sense to 

10 define subpart TTTT to reflect the broad system11 wide category that I described above, and then to 

12 complete the setting of the proposed standards 

13 for these subcategories, and then to establish a 

14 schedule for developing standards for other 

15 appropriate subcategories within the subpart.

16 And in particular NRDC believes EPA 

17 should reconsider the proposed exemption of new 

18 units that are intended to provide less than one19 third of their potential electricity output to 

20 the grid. This exemption is described as mainly, 

21 but not exclusively covering new simple cycle 

22 natural gas units designed for peaking purposes. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
76

1 But the one-third exemption will also 

2 cover units that run more often than traditional 

3 peakers. Substantial numbers of simple cycle 

4 units -- of single cycle units, excuse me, are 

5 being constructed, and they need to be promptly 

6 covered by appropriate carbon pollution 

7 standards. While EPA should not delay completing 

8 the rule making, we're depending proposed 

9 standards for the subcategories you've got. The 

10 Agency needs to narrow the proposed exemption and 

11 establish appropriate standards for the peakers 

12 without delay.

13 So in conclusion, we commend you for 

14 issuing this proposal. We'll comment further 

15 today and in writing. And we urge you to keep 

16 moving forward to implement the President's 

17 charge to curb the dangerous carbon pollution 

18 from both new and existing power plants. Thank 

19 you.

20 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you. Bill, 

21 questions?

22 MR. STEVENS: No, sir. Thank you. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
77

1 MR. FELLNER: Just one question. When 

2 you said the broad applicability for all electric 

3 generating units, were you considering like a 

4 cut-off, like right now the rule has a cut-off, 

5 you have to be larger than 25 megawatts? 

6 MR. DONNIGER: Well, we'll comment on 

7 that cut-off perhaps. But I understand your 

8 point about the possibility of having --

9 MR. FELLNER: Okay.

10 MR. DONNIGER: -- some small source -- 

11 some distinction for smaller sources. 

12 We do think it's important, both for the 

13 (b) and the (d) standard, to have a concept of 

14 the category that covers everything that 

15 contributes electricity. We don't want to have 

16 any kind of perverse lines which encourage people 

17 to build a unit which is just shy of the size 

18 cut-off; build more of them than they would build 

19 a few bigger ones, things of that kind. We don't 

20 want to see an encouragement to go off the grid 

21 to generate electricity and so forth.

22 But, these standards would need to be --

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
78

1 need to have VSER determinations that are 

2 appropriate for the types you're talking about. 

3 And some things are more urgent than others.

4 MR. FELLNER: Okay. Thank you.

5 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you. Ms. Young?

6 MS. YOUNG: Good morning. 

7 MR. WAYLAND: Good morning.

8 MS. YOUNG: My name is Lih Young. I'm a 

9 PhD economist by training. I'm am here to join 

10 other civic organizations like Sierra Club to 

11 support the clean water, clean air, and other 

12 plans that EPA would like to reduce significantly 

13 harmful pollution and global warming from power 

14 plants and petroleum refineries, et cetera, to 

15 improve the government function and to protect 

16 people, families and the communities from such 

17 harmful damages. My main reasons are stated 

18 below.

19 The harmful pollution affects people's 

20 health, productivity, and medical expenditures, 

21 individual, family, and social lives from both 

22 the private and social cost-benefit point of 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
79

1 view.

2 Power plants and the refineries are 

3 producing carbon pollution which harms our people 

4 and the communities, while taxpayers and general 

5 public have to pay the costs. Further, adverse 

6 impacts of unfairness, irresponsibility, unfair 

7 election, and market mechanism, and unjust 

8 influence of corporation entities or networks 

9 cause serious social-political problems and thus 

10 cost our society tremendously.

11 To help you understand the social problem 

12 I have identified -- I will attach that. See 

13 attachments, including my candidate statements. 

14 I have run for public offices, from local to 

15 federal, since 1994, including U.S. Senate. 

16 And so I want to emphasize, social 

17 justice is in great danger. Work to be done is 

18 promote fairness, freedom, justice, peace, 

19 humanity, productivity, wellbeing of general 

20 public, resolve socio-political issues, balancing 

21 the budget, oppose the so-called "Fair Election 

22 Act", public finance, matching small donors funds 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
80

1 which do more harm than good; resources benefit 

2 bad guys as usual.

3 So I urge the officials and legislatures 

4 to resolve the murder-fraud-crime-injustice 

5 network, and the complained issues, audit 

6 complaints and finances in practically every 

7 agency and contractors; prosecute/eliminate 

8 "murder-fraud-crime-injustice networks," 

9 operation, unjust practices, abuse, waste; and 

10 rather than being misled, manipulated, and 

11 influenced to benefit them. We ought to improve 

12 government function, resolve complaint issues, 

13 protect people, families, business, and 

14 communities from harmful damages on health, 

15 productivity, activities, lives, and medical 

16 expenditures from private and social points of 

17 view.

18 Just "murder-fraud-crime-injustice 

19 networks" so rampant from public and private 

20 sectors, three branches, administrative, and 

21 judicial levels from local to global, including 

22 legal, judicial and court personnel, law 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
81

1 enforcement, health services occupation, agency 

2 contracts, impersonators, facilities, et cetera, 

3 which are continuing, ongoing, relaying, 

4 infiltrating every segment of our lives, 

5 including non-profit civic organizations, 

6 expanding local to global with threat, coercion, 

7 falsification, misleading, destruction, 

8 tampering, destroying, concealing evidence, 

9 documents, witnesses, with endless abuse of 

10 power, law and authorities, unlawful, immoral 

11 acts, official misconduct, waste, unjust 

12 practices, scheme, scams, manipulation, 

13 monitoring, influences; deprivation of people's 

14 rights, resources, reputations, and lives; 

15 obstruct and destruct activities, personal, 

16 businesses, civic, political affiliation, destroy 

17 individuals, families, businesses, communities, 

18 society, justice, peace, cause homelessness, 

19 poverty, civil human rights, backwards, serious 

20 socio-political election media, legislative 

21 budget appropriation system problems. 

22 The murder-fraud-crime-injustice networks 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
82

1 can cause various abuse, false evidence or 

2 witnesses, obtain people's properties, 

3 belongings, pull hairs, cut buttons, clothing, 

4 handbags, shoes, luggage, samples, blood; unjust 

5 injuries, injection, damages, financially, 

6 physically, bodily, mentally, lives, even make 

7 certain matches on DNA. So it would be very hard 

8 to prove you're innocent.

9 It would be even more difficult or 

10 impossible for people to defend. And I want to 

11 mention that I have a -- maybe we say e-mail 

12 address, lyoung2k@yahoo.com, which has been 

13 unjustly obstructed and closed or denied access 

14 by this murder-fraud-crime injustice network. So 

15 abuses like other social media, the same, 

16 internet, computer. They are all obstruct, so as 

17 I have been complaining, a number of issues 

18 hasn't been resolved. So I just want you to pay 

19 attention and read this really carefully if you 

20 want to make contribution to our society. 

21 Thank you very much. And I would like to 

22 present this.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
83

1 MR. WAYLAND: Sure. You can leave it 

2 right here on the corner of the table.

3 Bill, any questions?

4 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you very much.

5 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Right 

6 here. Yes, right on the table. Thank you very 

7 much.

8 Our next two speakers this morning will 

9 be Sam Lockhart and Ben Longstrenth.

10 MS. LOCKHART: I know over there folks 

11 were saying they're having some trouble hearing 

12 in the back. So I don't know if there is a way 

13 to pump up the volume so everyone can hear. I 

14 just wanted to say that because someone asked to 

15 give that feedback.

16 MR. WAYLAND: Okay. Thank you, I'll get 

17 Joe to ask somebody. We're borrowing this room, 

18 obviously, from some judges. 

19 But, yes, we'll get that looked into and 

20 try to create more volume so everyone can hear. 

21 MS. LOCKHART: Is that any better? I 

22 switched it to on. Okay.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
84

1 MR. WAYLAND: Yes.

2 MS. LOCKHART: All right. Hello. My 

3 name is Sam Lockhart and I work as the National 

4 Outreach Coordinator for the National Wildlife 

5 Federation. However, today I'm here speaking as 

6 a citizen in support of the EPA's proposed new 

7 source carbon pollution standard.

8 I am third generation New Jersian on my 

9 father's side. That means that I grew up going 

10 to the Jersey Shore, just like my father before 

11 me and his father before him. And I have always 

12 assumed that when I had children I would take 

13 them to the Jersey Shore too.

14 After Superstorm Sandy, I no longer know 

15 if that is true and it has brought home to me the 

16 urgent need to develop serious strategies to 

17 address the underlying pollution that is at the 

18 heart of our climate crisis.

19 And New Jersey is just the tip of the 

20 iceberg. No pun intended. Across the world we 

21 are seeing increased drought, wildfires, and 

22 floods. We are seeing unanticipated impacts to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
85

1 all kinds of wildlife, from birds and fish to big 

2 game species like deer, moose, and bison. 

3 Climate change is the biggest threat to 

4 wildlife in the world. Here in the U.S. we have 

5 a strong tradition of spending time outside in 

6 this country's special places, where families 

7 like to fish, hunt, hike, and observe birds and 

8 other wildlife.

9 Though my family traditions on the Jersey 

10 Shore may seem a bit different, more ski ball and 

11 sandcastles than duck hunting, we all stand to 

12 lose when it comes to climate change. 

13 I'm also a young person. That means I 

14 care a lot about what the future of our country 

15 looks like. What kinds of jobs will be available 

16 for my kids and grandkids? Will we continue to 

17 invest largely in industries that are poisoning 

18 communities and destroying our planet? Or we take 

19 seriously our common moral responsibility to 

20 invest in energy sources that are sustainable.

21 Already renewable energy is one of the 

22 fastest growing sectors of our economy, and I 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
86

1 know that this rule will further spur that growth 

2 and push our country towards the future that we 

3 all need. 

4 Most people of my generation, commonly 

5 known as Millennials, have stopped believing in 

6 government as a force of good. Frustrated by a 

7 congress all too focused on denial and delay, and 

8 dismayed by the undue influence of big corporate 

9 polluters in our democracy, many of my generation 

10 have all but given up. 

11 Well, I'm proud today to see my 

12 government taking action to stand up for our 

13 health, our communities, and our environment. I 

14 am hopeful that actions like this and the 

15 existing source carbon standard on which the EPA 

16 held listening sessions this fall, will restore 

17 my generation's faith in our government and our 

18 country and attract some of the most talented and 

19 innovative among Millennials to make the choice 

20 to work toward our common good.

21 So finally I want to say, thank you. 

22 Thank you in advance to all our of our champions 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
87

1 in congress that will allow the EPA to do its job 

2 of protecting our environment and stand up to 

3 challenges from climate denying extremists that 

4 are in the pocket of big corporate polluters. 

5 Thank you here, at the EPA, for moving 

6 towards finalizing this rule. And thank you for 

7 everyone who came here today to share your voice 

8 in support of this exciting new step for our 

9 country. That's all.

10 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you.

11 MS. LOCKHART: And I have extra --

12 MR. WAYLAND: Yes, if you'll just, when 

13 you leave, leave it here --

14 MS. LOCKHART: Okay.

15 MR. WAYLAND: -- it would be great. 

16 MR. STEVENS: No questions for me. 

17 Thanks very much.

18 MR. FELLNER: No questions.

19 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

20 MR. LONGSTRENTH: All right. Good 

21 morning. My name is Benjamin Longstrenth. I'm 

22 an attorney with the Natural Resources Defense 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
88

1 Council. 

2 Thank you for providing me the 

3 opportunity to speak today in support of EPA's 

4 proposed standards to limit carbon pollution from 

5 power plants. I join my colleague, David 

6 Donniger, in commending EPA on behalf of NRDC's 

7 1.4 million members and online activists for 

8 undertaking this most important rule making.

9 We have an obligation to protect our 

10 children, grandchildren, and their children, from 

11 the harms of climate change. In recognition of 

12 this imperative, President Obama committed to 

13 achieve by 2020 a 17 percent reduction in carbon 

14 pollution from 2005 levels.

15 Last summer in the Climate Action Plan 

16 the President charted a path towards this 17 

17 percent reduction goal. The first and most 

18 important element of that plan is setting 

19 standards for the carbon pollution from power 

20 plants that are responsible for 40 percent of our 

21 carbon pollution.

22 But in order to reach the 17 percent 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
89

1 target, it is critical to not just set standards, 

2 but to set standards that achieve significant 

3 reductions in the level of pollution emitted from 

4 new, and even more importantly, existing power 

5 plants.

6 I'm going to address the standards EPA 

7 has proposed for natural gas-fired combustion 

8 turbines. This is an area of the proposed rule 

9 that should be significantly strengthened. EPA 

10 proposes to find that natural gas combined cycle 

11 plants are the best system of emission reduction 

12 for this subcategory. We support this 

13 determination. 

14 But EPA then fails to properly determine 

15 the appropriate level of carbon pollution that 

16 such plants can meet. Specifically, EPA proposes 

17 that natural gas combined cycle units above 250 

18 megawatt -- that for plants above 250 megawatts, 

19 the standard should be 1,000 pounds per -- CO2

20 per megawatt hour. And for units below 250 

21 megawatts it should be 1,100 pounds per megawatt 

22 hour.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
90

1 In selecting these numbers, EPA has 

2 proposed emission levels that just about every 

3 natural gas combined cycle unit in each size 

4 class can meet. This is not adequate. 

5 After EPA determines that NGCC Is the 

6 best system of emission reduction, EPA must 

7 still, as it has for other rules, determine the 

8 proper level at which the standards should be set 

9 based on the range of performance achieved by 

10 these plants.

11 EPA's practice in other rules has been to 

12 examine the performance of the sources, using the 

13 identified system of emission reduction and set 

14 the standard based on what the best plants,

15 typically near the 80th percentile can achieve.

16 For natural gas combined cycle plants, 

17 there's a significant range in performance. In 

18 our comments on the April, 2012, proposed rule, 

19 we presented our analysis of the emission levels 

20 for natural gas combined cycle plants. This 

21 showed that there are many 250-megawatt or larger 

22 plants that achieve a net emissions rate below 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
91

1 825 pounds CO2 per megawatt hour, and a good 

2 number that are below 800.

3 Based on that analysis, we recommended 

4 that for the category of larger plants EPA adopt 

5 a standard in the range of 825 to 850 pounds CO2

6 per megawatt hour. We're in the process of 

7 reviewing that data again, but thus far we have 

8 seen no evidence warranting a weaker standard. 

9 There is no reason for EPA to set a standard of 

10 1,000 pounds per megawatt hour when so many 

11 plants can achieve substantially better results.

12 We're also evaluating the data for the 

13 smaller NGCC plants, and believe that EPA's 

14 proposed 1,100 pound standard is similarly too 

15 lenient.

16 I'd like to address also the question of 

17 whether EPA standards are based on net electrical 

18 output, that is the amount of electricity 

19 delivered to the grid, or gross electrical 

20 production by the plant. We believe it's 

21 important for EPA to set the standard based on 

22 the net electrical output of each plant, meaning 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
92

1 the amount of pollution per kilowatt hour of 

2 electricity delivered to the grid.

3 EPA has proposed standards based on the 

4 gross amount of electricity produced by the 

5 plant. This approach will mask the fact that 

6 some plants consume significant quantities of 

7 electricity on site. What we're all interested 

8 in is the amount of useful electricity produced, 

9 and in order to allow for an accurate comparison 

10 of different plants, EPA needs to base its 

11 standard on the net electrical output. 

12 I want to just reiterate that EPA should 

13 be applauded for issuing this proposal, and for 

14 the important discussions it's undertaken 

15 regarding the standards for existing power 

16 plants.

17 But we do urge EPA, as it moves forward, 

18 to make sure that it sets standards for the gas19 fired combustion subcategory at the level that 

20 will achieve the largest carbon pollution 

21 reductions possible. Thank you.

22 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Bill, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
93

1 do you have any questions?

2 MR. STEVENS: No, that was clear. 

3 Thanks.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Christian?

5 MR. FELLNER: Yes, just one question. 

6 When you do your analysis, is it you're 

7 recommending a net output basis? Will your 

8 numbers be on a net -- you would somehow --

9 MR. LONGSTRENTH: I think we will try to 

10 provide both numbers --

11 MR. FELLNER: Okay.

12 MR. LONGSTRENTH: -- for you all, but we 

13 definitely will include the net because we think 

14 that's important.

15 MR. FELLNER: Okay. Thank you.

16 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much.

17 MR. LONGSTRENTH: Thank you. 

18 MR. WAYLAND: If you have anything, you 

19 can leave it here on the corner and we will get 

20 it to the reporter. Thank you both very much. 

21 Okay. Just a reminder for those of you 

22 who are coming in post the opening statement, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
94

1 please spell your last name for the reporter over 

2 here, just to make sure we get it right in the 

3 docket. We have a list where you signed up, but 

4 I just want to make sure that the record is 

5 correct.

6 Our next two speakers will be Molly Rauch 

7 and Zack Good. 

8 MS. RAUCH: Good morning.

9 MR. WAYLAND: Good morning.

10 MS. RAUCH: I'm Molly Rauch, R-A-U-C-H. 

11 Is that what you were asking for?

12 MR. WAYLAND: Yes. Sorry, I 

13 mispronounced it.

14 MS. RAUCH: That's okay. I'm grateful 

15 for the opportunity to speak with you today in 

16 support of EPA's proposed carbon rules. I'm 

17 speaking as a representative of Mom's Clean Air 

18 Force, an organization of more than 200,000 moms 

19 and dads.

20 I'm also speaking as a mother, myself. 

21 My three children are the most important reason 

22 that I am here today because their lives will be 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
95

1 directly affected by the choices that we make 

2 about whether and how much to limit the dangerous 

3 carbon pollution that's altering our climate.

4 I was here a year and a half ago when you 

5 held a hearing on the prior version of this 

6 standard. I'm here again today. I'll keep 

7 coming back until this work is done and done 

8 right. Each time I come back I'll be recruiting 

9 more concerned moms and dads because we are true 

10 stakeholders in this process.

11 Carbon pollution is disrupting our 

12 planet's climate. It's causing temperatures to 

13 rise. These rising temperatures increase ground14 level ozone. Climate change is also predicted, 

15 according to the most recent IPCC report, it is 

16 also predicted to increase the levels of 

17 dangerous particle pollution in areas with 

18 already high areas of the tiny particles, such as 

19 most major cities, including Washington, D.C., 

20 where I live with my family.

21 So with climate change we get increases 

22 in temperatures, increases in ozone, and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
96

1 increases in particle pollution, at least in some 

2 places. These three factors all contribute to 

3 very serious health problems such as asthma 

4 attacks, heart attacks, heart disease, stroke, 

5 possibly the development of the disease, asthma, 

6 to begin with, lung cancer, premature death, 

7 emergency room visits, hospital admissions, low 

8 birth weight, premature birth, diabetes, 

9 pneumonia, even autism. 

10 Many of these problems harm our children 

11 in particular. We at Mom's Clean Air Force think 

12 that's unacceptable. Carbon pollution, in other 

13 words, is not healthy for children and other 

14 living things.

15 Our electric utilities sometimes claim 

16 that they need the flexibility to give us cheap 

17 electricity. But what they call cheap could not 

18 be more expensive. A future of ill health 

19 created by us to be endured by our children. 

20 My kids are all in elementary school now, 

21 but I want to share something that happened to me 

22 when my children were babies, and I'm sure it 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
97

1 happens to most parents. Until I had children I 

2 was a very heavy sleeper. I could sleep through 

3 anything. But after I became a mom it was as if 

4 my hearing became more sensitive. If I heard my 

5 baby's little voice calling out in the night, I 

6 would find myself out of bed and halfway down the 

7 hall before she'd even stopped to take a breath. 

8 I could hear her on a cellular level, in a 

9 different way than I had heard anything else 

10 before.

11 Her cry wasn't just a baby crying, it was 

12 a wake-up call of a deeper sort. "You are now my 

13 mother," I heard her saying in that little cry. 

14 "You will hear everything differently now." 

15 And I do. I hear everything differently 

16 now. A colleague of mine calls that mother love. 

17 And why am I telling you about that? Well, I'll 

18 get to that.

19 That mother love, that different kind of 

20 hearing, that's the jolt that makes us jump out 

21 of bed at night and go to our babies. And my 

22 comments today, I feel like they're fueled by 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
98

1 that same jolt of adrenaline. 

2 There are currently no limits on the 

3 carbon emissions from either new power plants or 

4 existing ones. And that fact, to me, is like my 

5 baby crying out in the night. It's like a signal 

6 that my children's future is on the line. And 

7 that's why I'm here.

8 I want to end with a point I made a year 

9 and a half ago when I spoke about those proposed 

10 standards for new power plants. Moms have a lot 

11 of experience cleaning up messes. We know that 

12 most children won't clean up their rooms, or do 

13 the dishes, or hang up their coats on their own. 

14 Our power plants are no different.

15 The carbon emissions that come from this 

16 sector are making a mess of our climate. And it's 

17 up to us, all of us together, to make sure it 

18 stops. Our children deserve a well regulated 

19 electric power industry that produces electricity 

20 from clean sources without causing asthma and 

21 other grave health effects. It's EPA's job to 

22 set the rules that will give us the power 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
99

1 industry that all Americans and especially our 

2 children deserve. And we support you in this 

3 process. Thank you.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Bill?

5 MR. STEVENS: Thank you.

6 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much.

7 MR. GOOD: Thanks. Hi, my name is 

8 Zachary Good, G-O-O-D, and I'm here to testify in 

9 support of EPA's new source performance 

10 standards. 

11 As a climate and energy organizing fellow 

12 at Virginia Conservation Network, the dangers of 

13 carbon pollution and climate change are part of 

14 daily conversation for me. So much so that I 

15 often take for granted the wide-spread support 

16 amongst many of my friends for controlling carbon 

17 pollution. 

18 It is a fact that the unregulated dumping 

19 of CO2 into our atmosphere is a large contributor 

20 to climate change. It is a fact that 40 percent 

21 of carbon pollution in the United States comes 

22 from power plants. It is a fact that we limit 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
100

1 mercury, arsenic, lead, soot, and other pollution 

2 from power plants, but not carbon pollution, the 

3 key driver of climate change.

4 However, I'm not here to tell you what 

5 you already know. I'm here to tell you why 

6 regulating carbon pollution is important to me. 

7 To be perfectly honest, I haven't lived in 

8 Virginia very long. But I immediately connected 

9 with my peers on an issue that was pressing in my 

10 previous home, Miami. 

11 As an area affected by sea level rise, 

12 parts of Miami Beach regularly flood during 

13 spring tide events, there is a strong sense of 

14 the immediate need for adaptation. 

15 With the Hampton Roads area in Virginia, 

16 second only to New Orleans in the rate of sea 

17 level rise, the need for action is even more 

18 apparent. Already these communities are 

19 scrambling to adapt to these rising seas caused 

20 by climate change, battling recurrent flooding, 

21 property damage, and the prospect that family 

22 homes may need to be abandoned.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
101

1 Despite these challenges I am hopeful 

2 that new resilient communities will be leading 

3 our nation into the future. On the other hand, 

4 making adaptations to sea level rise and climate 

5 change are pointless without proper mitigation. 

6 We must reduce carbon pollution to 

7 prevent climate change from advancing beyond our 

8 ability to adapt. As a society, we have been 

9 faced with tough choices. No one thinks it will 

10 be easy to achieve these dramatic cuts in carbon 

11 pollution necessary. However, the EPA's new 

12 source performance standards are a step in the 

13 right direction. 

14 As a supporter of the new source 

15 performance standards, I am proud to number 

16 myself among those who will be able to tell 

17 future generations, I did something. I spoke up. 

18 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

19 Questions? 

20 MR. STEVENS: No, thanks.

21 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, both. 

22 Just a second. We'll be right back. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
102

1 (Off the record discussion.)

2 MR. WAYLAND: Okay. Sorry, we had a 

3 little crisis we needed to take care of.

4 Our next two speakers this morning will 

5 be John Hill and Richard Cizik. 

6 Mr. Hill?

7 MR. HILL: Yes. Good morning. 

8 My name is John Hill, H-I-L-L. I serve 

9 as the Director for Economic and Environmental 

10 Justice at the General Board of Church and 

11 Society of the United Methodist Church. 

12 I’m here today not as a scientist or as 

13 an engineer, or even as primarily an 

14 environmental advocate, but first and foremost as 

15 a person of faith who is called to care for God's 

16 good creation and to walk alongside my brothers 

17 and sisters around the globe who are struggling 

18 to survive the impacts of a changing climate.

19 I'm grateful for the opportunity to share 

20 comments this morning, for you all sitting here 

21 and listening, and most of all for EPA's 

22 commitment to addressing the real and present 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
103

1 moral crisis of climate change.

2 The United Methodist Church is a global 

3 denomination with nearly 12 million members and 

4 45,000 churches across the United States, in 

5 Europe, in the Philippines, and across to Africa. 

6 We represent a broad spectrum of political and 

7 social, and even theological views. But we take 

8 seriously our connection and love for our 

9 neighbors and are called to be caretakers of 

10 God's sacred gifts of land, water, and air.

11 In our church's social principles, which 

12 is our official position as a church, the social 

13 principle entitled Global Climate Stewardship 

14 acknowledges the unjust impact that our disregard 

15 for creation has had both on Earth and our 

16 neighbors, stating, quote, "The adverse impacts 

17 of global climate change disproportionately 

18 affect individuals and nations least responsible 

19 for the emissions. We therefore support effort 

20 of all governments to require mandatory 

21 reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and call 

22 on individuals, congregations, businesses, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
104

1 industries, and communities to reduce their 

2 emissions."

3 Across the United Methodist Church from 

4 affluent urban congregations here in Washington, 

5 D.C. to small rural churches from North Carolina 

6 to Nigeria, United Methodists are responding to 

7 God's call to protect creation by reducing our 

8 energy consumption, shifting to cleaner sources 

9 of energy, and educating, equipping, and 

10 mobilizing our churches, we are doing our part to 

11 reduce emissions and promote healthier 

12 sustainable communities.

13 Today I'm grateful that EPA is finally 

14 doing its part. After shameful years of inaction 

15 by our elected representatives, it's doing its 

16 part to reduce carbon pollution from power 

17 plants.

18 You'll hear from a lot of experts today. 

19 You've already heard some this morning who are 

20 armed with statistics and science. And I believe 

21 that information is critical to making an 

22 informed decision. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
105

1 But for those of us in ministry, in our 

2 churches, ours is a ministry not of numbers and 

3 statistics, but of names and stories. It's a 

4 ministry of relationships. So when I hear from 

5 Rosemary in Uganda that the survival of her 

6 women's farming co-op is threatened by changing 

7 rain patterns and unreliable growing seasons, or 

8 when I sit with my colleague and friend, Kabwita 

9 in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and hear 

10 how his community is challenged by conflict over 

11 increasingly scarce resources, I understand even 

12 more fully my responsibility, our complicity in 

13 their struggle. 

14 The sad truth is that while we in our 

15 places of comfort and privilege in the United 

16 States have debated the science and argued the 

17 statistics, and perpetuated our polluting ways, 

18 our brothers and sisters around the world and in 

19 vulnerable communities here at home have 

20 suffered.

21 Now is our time to act. Today I'm here 

22 as a person of faith asking that EPA move quickly 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
106

1 to finalize strong carbon pollution standards for 

2 new power plants as a first step in meeting our 

3 responsibilities, both to those who are bearing 

4 the burden of present pollution, and to future 

5 generations who will inherit this Earth.

6 Furthermore, I look forward to working 

7 with the Administration in the coming months to 

8 adopt rules for existing power plants so that we 

9 might hasten our transition to a cleaner, just, 

10 and sustainable energy economy that protects 

11 God's planet and all of God's people. Thank you. 

12 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

13 Questions?

14 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you. 

15 MR. WAYLAND: Mr. Cizik.

16 MR. CIZIK: Good morning. Thank you for 

17 the invitation. My name is Richard Cizik and I 

18 want to thank my colleague in faith for a 

19 beautiful statement.

20 I speak here today as the president of an 

21 organization called the New Evangelical 

22 Partnership for the Common Good, though I spent 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
107

1 28 years with the National Association of 

2 Evangelicals, the last 10 years as its vice 

3 president for governmental affairs. And I speak 

4 today as well as a citizen's activist from the 

5 Community of Virginia. On behalf of all 

6 Americans, not just those of faith, who want 

7 action to address the devastating health and 

8 climate impacts of carbon pollution.

9 When I thought about what I might say, I 

10 thought I would speak as a father, first, and I 

11 am the father of a son by the name of John. John 

12 is just 20 years of age and is a healthy six 

13 foot, five inch young man with a bright future. 

14 However, about seven years ago he was 

15 diagnosed with serious asthma. And on one 

16 occasion, before we really understood what was 

17 happening, he woke up in the morning unable to 

18 breathe. And it's a frightening experience if 

19 you're a parent and your child is telling you, 

20 gagging, he can't breathe. It's an experience, 

21 trust me, you will never forget.

22 Well, the good news is we got him to a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
108

1 doctor's office. He was diagnosed with asthma. 

2 He carries with him an inhaler and that solves 

3 the problem most of the time.

4 Interestingly enough, it was years later 

5 as a member of the Virginia Climate Commission, 

6 appointed by then Governor Tim Cane, that I came 

7 to understand what most people in Virginia do 

8 not. Namely, that our air in the Commonwealth is 

9 high in particulates and it contributes to the 

10 asthma rates that we have. 

11 And so I speak this morning, first of 

12 all, as a parent who knows first-hand the impacts 

13 that come from pollutions and toxins in the 

14 environment. 

15 By the way, when I testified to this 

16 affect, back in May of 2012, there was a 

17 representative here at the EPA who cynically 

18 reported in the news thereafter that Reverend 

19 Cizik thought we ought to do something about this 

20 problem because his son almost died. It struck 

21 me as ironic that this individual, who was 

22 obviously a lobbyist for one of the coal or other 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
109

1 industries in this town, thought that -- he 

2 thought that it was somehow out of place that a 

3 parent would come here and testify that we had to 

4 do something because his very child's life was in 

5 danger. There's something about that, that 

6 strikes me frankly as a biblical Christian, as 

7 somewhat, if you don't mind my saying so, sick.

8 I come also as an individual to testify 

9 about how I personally have been impacted and why 

10 I am an activist. I was asked years ago by the 

11 Environmental Working Group to be part of -- to 

12 be a participant, in fact, of the Human Toxome 

13 Project. And in so doing, according to the final 

14 results which were revealed to 25 Americans, I 

15 became one of only a small number of people in 

16 the world to know a portion of the personal body 

17 burden of industrial chemicals called the Human 

18 Toxome. In my own body.

19 And the result is that I can testify to 

20 the many industrial chemicals, plasticides, flame 

21 retardants, Teflon chemicals, and heavy metals 

22 that are present. In fact, I have varying levels 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
110

1 of 39 of 84, if you can believe that, industrial 

2 compounds, pollutants and other chemicals tested, 

3 that have contributed, among other things, to 

4 what they said in the report to mean reproductive 

5 health problems. Big surprise. My wife and I, 

6 for many, many years, were infertile. I couldn't 

7 help but look back and say, I wonder what else is 

8 going on in my body.

9 Well, I know. I know the levels, for 

10 example, of mercury, including methyl mercury. 

11 And just to give you an example, it's 2 PPBs, 

12 which is relatively high to national studies. In 

13 fact, I'm in the 87th percentile, nationally, 

14 which means only 13 percent of the public has 

15 higher exposure.

16 And I could go through all these 

17 industrial compounds, chemicals, toxins, and the 

18 rest and give you my exact levels, and how they 

19 contribute, according to some scientists, to 

20 cardiovascular disease, immune disorders, and 

21 every other thing that you can imagine. And I 

22 would dare say to you, sir, ladies and gentlemen 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
111

1 here today, if most Americans had any idea of 

2 what is in their body, they would be here, 

3 standing in droves to give you testimony about 

4 why this pollution -- carbon pollution standard 

5 is so important. 

6 Genetics, of course, also play a role. 

7 But the bottom line is very clear. Our EPA is 

8 doing the right thing in setting carbon pollution 

9 standards to reduce the effects of climate change 

10 that worsen smog and trigger asthma attacks and 

11 other health consequences. And I can only say, 

12 since the light has come on, this is really 

13 important and I urge you onward. Do not be 

14 delayed. We all know time is of the essence. 

15 Very lives are at stake. 

16 And so I say, as a man of faith and a 

17 fellow American and a member of the Commonwealth 

18 of Virginia, God bless you and do it. It's very 

19 important for individual lives. Including my 

20 son's, my family's, and my own. And I thank you 

21 very much.

22 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, sir. Any 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
112

1 questions?

2 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you.

3 MR. FELLNER: Thank you.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, both.

5 Okay. Our next two speakers, and I'm 

6 going to apologize in advance, I'm probably not 

7 going to get this one right, the Reverend 

8 Sarah --

9 MS. SCHERSCHLIGT: Scherschligt.

10 MR. WAYLAND: -- Scherschligt. 

11 MS. SCHERSCHLIGT: Yes. As soon as you 

12 said you're not getting it right, I knew. 

13 MR. WAYLAND: And Sara Chieffo. I'm sure 

14 there's an app on my phone that you could type it 

15 in and it would tell you how to say it, but 

16 thanks for your patience.

17 MS. SCHERSCHLIGT: Thank you. This must 

18 be the people of faith time to talk. My name is

19 Sarah Scherschligt and I'm the senior pastor of 

20 Peace Lutheran Church in Alexandria, Virginia, as 

21 well as the leader of the Metropolitan 

22 Washington, D.C., Senate of the Evangelical 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
113

1 Lutheran Church and America's Creation Care Team.

2 As a team, we meet monthly to see how we 

3 can encourage our 80 churches with 34,000 members 

4 to take seriously our call to care for this world 

5 that God made and that God called good. 

6 We connect with Lutheran churches across 

7 the country in a network called Lutherans 

8 Restoring Creation, and we connect with people of 

9 other faiths in the vast network of the 

10 Interfaith Power and Light. 

11 We are grateful for the work of the EPA 

12 and we consider good government a gift from God 

13 and a responsibility of human society. 

14 I just want to briefly address the 

15 stereotype that Christians don't like science. 

16 Please know there are plenty of Christians, 

17 including many in this room, I'm sure, who love 

18 and trust science, care about the environment, 

19 care about the environment's impacts, especially 

20 on the poor, and can connect the dots, and work 

21 for climate justice. 

22 From a faith perspective, I join this 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
114

1 growing chorus of people, including at least 14 

2 other faith leaders you're going to hear from 

3 today, who believe that there is no more 

4 important issue facing our world than the 

5 devastating effects of pollution from our carbon 

6 hungry economy, including large scale weather 

7 events, other climate disruptions, and a host of 

8 carbon pollution related health problems. 

9 Across the world many Christians will 

10 hear on Sunday, this text, "You are the salt of 

11 the Earth and you are the light of the world." 

12 At my church we'll sing it, (singing) "You are 

13 the light of the world. You are the light of the 

14 world, so shine, shine, shine where you are. You 

15 are the light of the world."

16 We take that to mean that each person has 

17 a responsibility to do what they can, where they 

18 can, for the care and redemption of God's world. 

19 And like a grain of salt or one candle flame, 

20 most of our actions are small. Most of us can 

21 only influence climate change by changing our own 

22 carbon consumption. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
115

1 Do you know what this is? It's a piece 

2 of weather stripping. My husband and I recently 

3 bought our first home. It's from 1954 and it 

4 needed some work. We've put in weather stripping 

5 along all the doors, we've replaced the windows, 

6 we've turned down the thermostats, we're doing 

7 what we can, and undoubtedly these are small 

8 things. But we're not alone.

9 The Lutheran Creation Care Team I work 

10 with encourages similar actions for all of our 

11 members, and for our churches. A church in 

12 Gaithersburg, Maryland has just reinsulated their 

13 roof. A church in Arlington has replaced single14 pane windows with double-pane windows, and is 

15 budgeting for a new efficient HVAC system. My 

16 church has just invested in LED lighting for our 

17 sanctuary.

18 We encourage our members to carbon fast 

19 during the season of Lent, a season that will 

20 start this year on March 5th. And every day for 

21 those 40 days, we will take small actions, put on 

22 a sweater, turn down the thermostat one degree, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
116

1 and we will fast from our use of carbon in order 

2 to make our voices known and to take our small 

3 actions. 

4 That will lead us to Easter, where on 

5 Easter we will celebrate in the next Sunday, the 

6 Creation Care Sunday, where all our congregations 

7 will be encouraged to focus on God's good world 

8 that day, reprogramming the thermostats for the 

9 summer, teaching their kids to connect faith and 

10 pollution, biking to church, not printing 

11 bulletins. All of these small actions. All of 

12 these little grains of salt. 

13 We do them, we trust that somehow they 

14 matter, but we know that these actions alone 

15 can't do much in terms of the big thing we're 

16 facing. Rarely are we, as individuals, in a 

17 position to make big change. But you are. With 

18 the scope of these carbon reduction rules, you 

19 are in a position to make big changes; changes 

20 that we need in order to start to realign our 

21 national pollution load with what our world can 

22 handle, rules that we need for the health and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
117

1 wellbeing of people, and the future of our 

2 society.

3 The EPA right now is in a position to 

4 make all these little efforts done by faithful 

5 people around the world, add up. Add up to 

6 something far bigger. And so now I hope that you 

7 take the call as the salt of the Earth, as the 

8 light of the world, to take bold action in 

9 deciding to impose these strict carbon pollution 

10 rules for new and existing power plants. Let 

11 your light shine. Thank you.

12 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Bill?

13 MR. STEVENS: Nothing from me. Thank you 

14 very much.

15 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you.

16 MS. CHIEFFO: Wow. Thank you. Good 

17 morning, my name is Sara Chieffo, C-H-I-E-F-F-O. 

18 And I am really honored to be part of the chorus 

19 of voices that are speaking in strong support of 

20 the Environmental Protection Agency's proposed 

21 standard that sets the first national limits on 

22 carbon pollution from new power plants.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
118

1 You see, I'm here as a mom, as an asthma 

2 sufferer, and as the legislative director at the 

3 League of Conservation Voters. 

4 I commend President Obama's leadership in 

5 addressing the climate crisis, and strongly 

6 support the comprehensive Climate Action Plan 

7 that he unveiled at Georgetown University this 

8 past June. 

9 As you know well, a port pillar of that 

10 plan is limiting the pollution that's driving 

11 climate change from the nation's largest 

12 polluter, power plants. The science is clear. I 

13 deal mostly with congress these days. They have 

14 other views. But the science is clear, climate 

15 change is happening and human actions are the 

16 main cause. People are seeing the impacts right 

17 outside their windows. 

18 The devastation wrought by Hurricane 

19 Sandy, which we already heard about, the drought 

20 current gripping my home state of California, the 

21 wildfires and subsequent floods that ravaged 

22 Colorado this past year. Our nation is already 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
119

1 footing the bill for climate change. It's not a 

2 problem that's decades away. It is here today.

3 In 2013, there were seven separate 

4 weather and climate disasters whose price tags 

5 exceeded $1 billion. Tax payers are stuck 

6 already picking up the vast majority of these 

7 costs. Doctors, nurses, scientists, and other 

8 experts, you'll hear from today and you've 

9 already heard from, warn us that carbon pollution 

10 threatens public health and is especially 

11 damaging to vulnerable populations like children, 

12 including my daughter, and the elderly. 

13 Climate change's rising temperatures will 

14 make smog pollution worse, triggering asthma 

15 attacks and even permanently damaging children's 

16 developing lungs. My own asthma attacks strike 

17 on smog-filled hot summer days, so I feel like 

18 I’m squarely in climate change's cross-hairs. 

19 Coal and gas-fired power plants are the 

20 single largest source of carbon pollution in the 

21 United States, accounting for roughly 40 percent 

22 of the global warming emissions that our nation 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
120

1 puts out. Right now these polluters are free to 

2 dump an unlimited amount of carbon pollution into 

3 our air. It's wrong, and thankfully we're here 

4 today to support you finally stopping that. 

5 Limiting carbon pollution for new power 

6 plants is just good plain old common sense. 

7 Setting limits on carbon pollution is widely 

8 supported, including by overwhelming four out of 

9 five young people, the generation with the most 

10 at stake.

11 In fact, reducing carbon pollution from 

12 the nation's largest polluters is so commonsense 

13 that most people assume limits are already in 

14 place. When they learn they aren't, they demand 

15 action now. 

16 The proposed standard will protect public 

17 health, spur innovation and clean technologies, 

18 and start us down the path of stopping dangerous 

19 climate discussion. 

20 I see you're going to get the hook.

21 MR. WAYLAND: No, no, no, no.

22 MS. CHIEFFO: Okay.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
121

1 MR. WAYLAND: I didn't reset it. That's 

2 why I just cut it off. You're fine.

3 MS. CHIEFFO: Okay. I was like, oh, I 

4 can wrap up.

5 MR. WAYLAND: No, no, take your time. 

6 Take your time.

7 MS. CHIEFFO: So this standard will help 

8 ensure that the current market trends we're 

9 seeing towards a cleaner, a safer, and a more 

10 modern power sector continue. 

11 The standard builds on successful actions 

12 that you, EPA in partnership with the Department 

13 of Transportation, have already taken to reduce 

14 carbon pollution from our nation's fleet of cars 

15 and trucks.

16 My organization, the League of 

17 Conservation Voters, has already gathered over 

18 200,000 comments in support of this proposed 

19 standard before us today. Our members are part 

20 of the record-breaking millions of concerned 

21 citizens, more than ever who have stood up and 

22 voiced their support for the EPA, setting limits 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
122

1 on power plants' carbon pollution, both for new 

2 power plants and for existing.

3 I get up every day fighting for cleaner 

4 air and a safer planet. I want to thank the EPA 

5 for allowing our voices to be heard today and for 

6 being a partner in that fight. Looking into my 

7 nine month old daughter's eyes is my daily 

8 reminder of what's at stake and why we must act 

9 now to stop dangerous climate disruption. Thank 

10 you for your time.

11 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Any 

12 questions, guys?

13 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you.

14 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, both. 

15 Okay. Our next two speakers will be 

16 Ashton Lee Bailey and Greg Bertelsen.

17 Okay, Ashton, whenever you're ready.

18 MS. BAILEY: Good morning. My name is 

19 Ashton Bailey, and I'm a staff attorney at 

20 Greenlaw, a non-profit environmental law firm 

21 focused on Georgia.

22 Greenlaw in connection with the Southern 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
123

1 Environmental Law Center and a number of other 

2 environmental groups, will also be submitting 

3 written comments to the Agency.

4 I certainly echo many of the other 

5 comments I've heard here today. Carbon pollution 

6 is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, 

7 and the EPA should not hesitate to put stringent 

8 requirements on plants that burn fossil fuels to 

9 produce electricity. 

10 However, I'm here today to draw your 

11 attention to information that has recently become 

12 publically available regarding one of the three 

13 plants that EPA labels as under development, 

14 Plant Washington. 

15 Based on the information I have to share, 

16 EPA should determine that this facility has not 

17 commenced construction, and if it is built, would 

18 be a new source that is subject to the same 

19 emission safeguards that apply to all new sources 

20 under the proposed rule.

21 As you're likely aware, the term 

22 commenced is defined by federal regulation to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
124

1 require that a source have either begun as 

2 continuous program of construction or entered 

3 into a contractual obligation to undertake and 

4 complete within a reasonable amount of time, a 

5 continuous program of construction or 

6 modification.

7 In the case of Plant Washington, EPA's 

8 interpretations of commencing construction would 

9 require the facility to have executed binding 

10 contractual agreements that impose significant 

11 penalties for breach. According to the proposed 

12 rule EPA's belief that Plant Washington has 

13 commenced construction is based solely on 

14 unconfirmed representations made by the plant's 

15 developer, Power for Georgians. 

16 However, to the extent that EPA is 

17 referring to assertions made by Power for 

18 Georgians in April of 2013, that it had entered a 

19 contract for the purchase of the boiler, 

20 containing significant penalties for breach, 

21 those assertions do not show that Plant 

22 Washington has commenced construction. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
125

1 Rather, the boiler contract in question 

2 contains multiple escape hatches that allow Power 

3 for Georgians to avoid significant liability as 

4 defined by the EPA. 

5 A letter from Power for Georgians to the 

6 Environmental Protection Division -- or to the 

7 Georgia Environmental Protection Division, 

8 describes how Power for Georgians can escape 

9 liability. 

10 First, if U.S. EPA promulgates final 

11 standards that seek to impose greenhouse gas 

12 emission limits on Plant Washington, or that 

13 eliminate the proposed transitional source 

14 exemption. 

15 Second, if the U.S. EPA failed to 

16 promulgate final standards by July 1st, 2013. 

17 Or third, if P for G either received an 

18 adverse applicability determination in response 

19 to their request to EPD or failed to receive a 

20 response by July 1st, 2013. 

21 Two of these provisions described in the 

22 letter have already come to pass. As a result, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
126

1 Power for Georgians has, since last July, had the 

2 option of terminating contracts at its 

3 convenience. As such, the boiler purchase 

4 contract does not impose significant liability 

5 for breach, and cannot be considered sufficient 

6 to have commenced construction.

7 The developer has not produced any 

8 documentation that cures these deficiencies. 

9 However, even if the developer has amended 

10 contracts we believe it is reasonable to expect 

11 that any such amendment would contain similar 

12 escape hatches. 

13 If Power for Georgians were truly poised 

14 to commence construction it would proceed without 

15 waiting further action by EPA and point to its 

16 progress as the basis for exemption from the 

17 greenhouse gas standard. Rather than showing its 

18 progress Power for Georgians is now seeking 

19 permission from the Georgia Environmental 

20 Protection Division for an extension of 18 months 

21 to commence construction under its air permit for 

22 the facility. This is further evidence that the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
127

1 facility has not progressed to a point that plans 

2 could not be altered to conform to the greenhouse 

3 gas standard. 

4 I want to remind the Agency that the 

5 burden of proof that a facility has commenced 

6 construction has historically been on the 

7 facility. The Agency should not shift this 

8 burden and its rule making to itself, permitting 

9 agencies or citizens who would be burdened by 

10 additional pollution in their communities. 

11 In short, it is time for Power for 

12 Georgians to affirmatively show EPA how it is so 

13 far along in the development process that it 

14 cannot be treated like any other new source of 

15 carbon pollution. We suspect Power for Georgians 

16 cannot meet its burden and that is why EPA only 

17 has its hollow representations. 

18 Just a few facts to explain why we're so 

19 concerned. Plant Washington, as permitted, is 

20 expected to emit more than 22 million tons of 

21 carbon dioxide annually. It's going to be sited 

22 in a state that's going to cost over $2 billion 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
128

1 and be sited in a state where the primary utility 

2 already has a glut of capacity and has no 

3 evidence of power purchase agreements.

4 As you can see, the physical and economic 

5 health of Georgians and the environment they 

6 enjoy will be impacted negatively if Plant 

7 Washington is constructed. 

8 I thank you for your time and happy to 

9 answer any questions.

10 MR. WAYLAND: I just had one question. 

11 Will you guys be submitting the specifics of that 

12 letter and the contracts as part of your formal 

13 comments?

14 MS. BAILEY: The letter is currently 

15 publically available. The contracts are a 

16 subject of litigation.

17 MR. WAYLAND: Litigation. Okay.

18 MS. BAILEY: So we hope to, but we 

19 haven't --

20 MR. WAYLAND: Okay.

21 MS. BAILEY: -- reached a settlement on 

22 that yet.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
129

1 MR. WAYLAND: Okay. Thank you. Bill?

2 MR. STEVENS: No, nothing. Thank you. 

3 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Greg?

4 MR. BERTELSEN: Good morning. My name is 

5 Greg Bertelsen, B, as in boy, E-R-T-E-L-S-E-N. 

6 On behalf of the National Association of 

7 Manufacturers and its 12,000 members, I am 

8 pleased to offer the following remarks on the 

9 Environmental Protection Agency's proposed 

10 standards of performance for greenhouse gas 

11 emissions for new electric utility generating 

12 units.

13 The NAM is the Nation's largest 

14 industrial trade association representing small, 

15 medium, and large manufacturers in every 

16 industrial sector and in all 50 states.

17 As the EPA accepts comments on this rule, 

18 manufacturers and the rest of the regulated 

19 community are well aware that this is just the 

20 first in a suite of planned regulations that will 

21 ultimately impact the cost and availability of 

22 energy, and could dictate equipment and process 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
130

1 choices for businesses across the country. 

2 The Administration is intent on pursuing 

3 this regulatory path. Let's get this first rule 

4 right and avoid setting the dangerous precedent 

5 of issuing unachievable standards unsupported by 

6 statute.

7 The Clean Air Act requires the EPA to set 

8 standards that are achievable and that have been 

9 adequately demonstrated. Yet the standard the 

10 EPA proposes for coal is neither. There is not a 

11 single utility scale power plant in operation 

12 that meets the EPA standard for coal. The only 

13 four examples EPA can identify in supporting its 

14 conclusion that CCS is an adequately demonstrated 

15 technology are still in various stages of 

16 development. Only two of which are actually 

17 under construction, one of which is located 

18 outside of the United States.

19 Further, the three U.S. based projects 

20 identified in EPA's proposed rule, have all 

21 received various levels of support through the 

22 Clean Coal Power Initiative, or CCPI. The CCPI 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
131

1 is administered by the Department of Energy and 

2 is intended to help overcome some of the 

3 technical risks associated with bringing emerging 

4 technologies like CCS, to the point of commercial 

5 readiness. 

6 The CCPI was not conceived for already 

7 deployed and commercially viable technologies, 

8 and is certainly not intended for technologies 

9 that have been adequately demonstrated. 

10 Congress recognized the intent of the 

11 CCPI in the Energy Policy Act of 2005, when it 

12 explicitly limited the use of the projects 

13 receiving assistance through the CCPI in 

14 determining a technology has been adequately 

15 demonstrated for purposes of regulation under 

16 Section 111 of the Clean Air Act. 

17 Yet this proposed rule -- yet in this 

18 proposed rule, the EPA relies on these three CCPI 

19 projects in making its adequately demonstrated 

20 determination, a determination the NAM submits is 

21 incorrect.

22 The performance standard in this rule is 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
132

1 contrary to the clear intent of congress. 

2 However, you need not ask congress or lawyers to 

3 draw the conclusion that CCS has not been 

4 adequately demonstrated. Just ask the 

5 manufactures of the technology and they will tell 

6 you, it is not ready. 

7 CCS for utility scale coal or gas 

8 projects need more time, more investment dollars, 

9 and a reasonable regulatory environment to get 

10 where it needs to go; from a developing 

11 technology with a promising future, to one that 

12 has overcome the technical barriers necessary to 

13 be deployed in a competitive marketplace. 

14 An inflexible mandate, such as the one 

15 offered in this proposed rule ensures only that 

16 the pipeline of new advanced power plant projects 

17 will dry up, sending CCS technologies overseas 

18 for international competitors to nurture and 

19 ultimately own.

20 Investment dollars, like greenhouse gas 

21 emissions are not constrained by national 

22 borders. This kind of regulatory environment 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
133

1 ensures both will be sent abroad.

2 If this rule is finalized in its current 

3 form, it will add another layer of unnecessary 

4 regulatory uncertainty as the courts will be 

5 forced to weigh in on the rule's tenuous legal 

6 conclusions. It will threaten the diversity and 

7 affordability of our future energy supply, and it 

8 will cede the next generation of power plant 

9 technologies to our international competitors.

10 All this for a rule that EPA surmises 

11 will have no notable impact on CO2 emissions. At 

12 some point, one is left to ponder the question, 

13 what are we actually accomplishing with this 

14 rule. 

15 As manufacturers stand next in line for 

16 regulations of their own, can the Administration 

17 commit to them with any sincerity that they will 

18 not be subject to similar, ill conceived, 

19 unattainable standards? Manufacturers are 

20 committed to protecting the environment through 

21 greater environmental sustainability, increased 

22 energy efficiency and conservation, and reducing 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
134

1 greenhouse gas emissions. 

2 Manufacturers can and will continue to 

3 develop technological solutions to ensure a 

4 sustainable future. We are building more 

5 efficient power plants, factories, cars, and 

6 appliances, all of which are leading to lower 

7 emissions. With the right policies in place, we 

8 will continue to do so while fueling job creation 

9 and driving economic growth. 

10 In pursuit of this end, we strongly urge 

11 the EPA to reevaluate the proposed greenhouse gas 

12 rule for new power plants and consider a more 

13 reasonable path forward based on technologically 

14 achievable standards. Thank you very much.

15 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you. Bill, any 

16 questions? 

17 MR. STEVENS: No. Thanks. 

18 MR. FELLNER: In your written comments, 

19 will you provide sort of what you feel would be 

20 reasonable for coal plants?

21 MR. BERTELSEN: Yes. 

22 MR. FELLNER: Okay. Thanks.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
135

1 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you. 

2 MR. BERTELSEN: Thanks. Just put them 

3 there?

4 MR. WAYLAND: Sure. If you'll leave it 

5 there. 

6 MR. STEVENS: Do you have an extra copy?

7 MR. WAYLAND: Perfect. Mine is the same 

8 way. 

9 Okay. Our next two speakers this morning 

10 will be John Cartmill and Linda Muller. 

11 MR. CARTMILL: My name is John Cartmill, 

12 C-A-R-T-M-I-L-L, and I'm one of the directors of 

13 Fairfax Climate Watch.

14 My message today is simple. The U.S. 

15 needs to reduce carbon emissions drastically, 

16 starting now. And although this regulation is a 

17 step in the right direction, it does not go 

18 nearly far enough in restricting CO2 emissions. 

19 Emissions of today will adversely impact 

20 the climate for centuries to come. If the EPA is 

21 to fulfill its mission of protecting human health 

22 and the environment, then this Agency needs to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
136

1 act quickly and forcefully. 

2 Last week in his State of the Union 

3 Address, the President said, "And when our 

4 children's children look us in the eye and ask if 

5 we did all we could to deliver them a safer more 

6 stable world with new sources of energy, I want 

7 to be able to say, yes we did."

8 Back in 1992 the U.S. signed the UN 

9 Framework Convention on Climate Change. 

10 Seventeen years later, in 2009, the EPA finally 

11 issues an endangerment finding. Five years after 

12 that we are sitting here today commenting on a 

13 proposed rule that the EPA projects will result 

14 in negligible CO2 emission changes and benefits 

15 by 2022. Will our grandchildren be proud of us 

16 for that?

17 The NRC assessments in the science 

18 section of this regulation detail a number of 

19 horrific perils. Dramatic sea level rise, a 

20 doubling of wildfires, an ocean acidification to 

21 name just a few. They use terms like 

22 disruptions, coral reef die-off, and mass 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
137

1 extinction. All of which scream, we must end our 

2 CO2 emissions as rapidly as possible.

3 Winston Churchill said it best; the era 

4 of procrastination, of half measures, of soothing 

5 expedience of delays is coming to its close. In 

6 its place we are entering a period of 

7 consequences. We're already witnessing these 

8 consequences.

9 Oyster fisheries on both coasts are 

10 imperiled by ocean acidification. And I shudder 

11 to think of the cost if California doesn't get 

12 some rain soon. 

13 In 2011, barge traffic on the Mississippi 

14 River was stopped due to record high water caused 

15 by flooding. In 2012 it was stopped by record 

16 low water caused by drought. What will happen 

17 when we get another Katrina or Sandy or both?

18 This regulation also ignores secondary 

19 emissions as a result of extracting and 

20 transporting these fossil fuels. A 2011 analysis 

21 found that in each stage of the life cycle of 

22 coal, extraction, transport, processing, and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
138

1 combustion, generates a waste stream that is 

2 costing the U.S. public hundreds of billions of 

3 dollars annually. 

4 Natural gas extraction has its own set of 

5 problems. Methane leaks occur in drilling, as we 

6 saw just last week in the Gulf of Mexico. And in 

7 pipelines like the one that exploded in Canada 

8 two weeks ago. Then there's frackquakes and 

9 ground water contamination with a witches brew of 

10 proprietary chemicals that have led states and 

11 municipalities, the ones that care about the 

12 environment and the health of their citizens, to 

13 actually ban fracking. 

14 Along with these dangers to the 

15 environment this regulation is also a failure 

16 economically by allowing coal and natural gas 

17 powered plants to continue to freely spew their 

18 waste gases into the atmosphere. It gives them 

19 an unfair advantage over zero emission 

20 technologies like wind and solar. 

21 Instead of embracing the future this 

22 regulation helps perpetuate fossil fuel 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
139

1 technologies that need to go the way of the 

2 vacuum tube and the typewriter. One day soon 

3 there will be a price on carbon. Maybe imposed 

4 by a result of climate negotiations. Maybe 

5 imposed by a carbon tax by congress. Maybe it 

6 will be the cost of adaptation, like the billions 

7 we spent on the levies in New Orleans to replace 

8 the levies that we spent billions on before. 

9 But my greatest fear is it will be paid 

10 in lives lost and dismal futures for our children 

11 and grandchildren. 

12 I realize this regulation is probably the 

13 best you can do. I understand how the political 

14 climate works. But I also understand how the 

15 physical climate works. And Dr. Wally Broecker 

16 once said, "It is an angry beast and we are 

17 poking at it with sticks."

18 It is clear we must have urgent action to 

19 put a cap on the cumulative total greenhouse gas 

20 emissions. Considering the climate consequences 

21 we're facing if we procrastinate, does the EPA 

22 really think this regulation truly fulfills its 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
140

1 mission of protecting human health and the 

2 environment? Thank you.

3 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

4 Questions?

5 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you very much.

6 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you.

7 MS. MULLER: My name is Linda Muller, 

8 M-U-L-L-E-R. I reside in Stafford, Virginia. 

9 I’m the chair of the Rappahannock Group Sierra 

10 Club, which is part of the Sierra Club, the 

11 country's largest, oldest grassroots 

12 environmental organization. And I want to thank 

13 the Agency for allowing this opportunity to speak 

14 on this very important proposed legislation.

15 My husband and I moved from Chicago to 

16 Virginia in February, 1989, 25 years ago. I fell 

17 in love with Virginia's unique and beautiful 

18 outdoor setting. Beaches and lowlands on the 

19 east, and vapor cloaked Appalachian Mountains to 

20 the west and southwest, rich piedmonts and 

21 valleys carved by rivers and streams. 

22 I recall one of my first hikes, June, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
141

1 1985, 25 years ago, in the Shenandoah National 

2 Park, along a trail called the White Oak Canyon 

3 in Skyline Drive. This challenging trail offers 

4 hikers an abundance of waterfalls and steep 

5 terrain, and opportunities to drop a fishing line 

6 to hook a brookie or two. 

7 I'll never forget walking through the 

8 upper section of the White Oak Canyon Trail, on a 

9 humid June morning. There was a thick grove of 

10 hemlock trees, the sunlight muted through the 

11 shroud of fog mixed with the light pine scent of 

12 the hemlocks. It was phenomenal. 

13 Fast forward 25 years. The hemlock 

14 groves are disseminated due to pine boring 

15 beetles which have thrived in warmer climates and 

16 have infested weakened trees caused by drought or 

17 lack of hard winter freezes. 

18 I have family in Colorado, and over the 

19 past 30 years I've spent many a spring and winter 

20 ski seasons in the Rocky Mountains. 

21 In June 2012, while visiting with family 

22 in Colorado, we personally witnessed the raging 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
142

1 wildfires and reviewed hundreds of thousands of 

2 acres of dead or infested pine trees caused by 

3 pine boring beetles. 

4 A lack of natural controls, such as 

5 predators or pathogens or inadequate defenses in 

6 trees can allow insects to spread. Climate 

7 change can contribute to an increase in the 

8 severity of future insect outbreaks. Rising 

9 temperatures can enable some insect species to 

10 develop faster and expand the ranges northward. 

11 Invasive plant species can displace important 

12 native vegetation because invasive species often 

13 lack natural predators. 

14 This can have a devastating impact, not 

15 only to recreational natural preserves and parks, 

16 but also on our farming crops, agriculture, and 

17 the impact to our health based on vector-borne 

18 diseases.

19 This is just one example of negative 

20 impacts of climate change. We need to reduce our 

21 CO2 emissions. And I support any efforts to make 

22 that difference. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
143

1 I want to thank you for your time this 

2 morning. 

3 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much for 

4 your testimony. Any questions?

5 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you. 

6 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, both. 

7 All right. We'll continue.

8 Our next two speakers will be Martha 

9 Ellen Wingfield, and Daryl Downing. 

10 Ms. Wingfield. Okay. 

11 MR. DOWNING: Just one okay?

12 MR. WAYLAND: You need to use both of 

13 them. Sorry. One is for amplification, one is 

14 for recording.

15 MR. DOWNING: Okay. Good morning, my 

16 name is Daryl Downing, and I thank you for this 

17 opportunity to testify. 

18 I'm a conservationist. My family 

19 practice is reduce, reuse, recycle. We compost. 

20 We try to be good stewards of the environment. 

21 My wife and I made a conscious decision 

22 to have no more than two children. While these 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
144

1 choices are good for the environment they're 

2 almost meaningless compared to the thousands of 

3 tons of greenhouse gases that fossil fuel plants 

4 emit. 

5 There's already far too much CO2 in the 

6 atmosphere, which is why it's absolutely 

7 imperative that the EPA put in place the most 

8 stringent controls for all new fossil fuel 

9 plants.

10 I served in the U.S. military for 24 

11 years. I swore to defend the Constitution. I 

12 did not swear to defend the right of large 

13 corporations to destroy the environment for this 

14 and future generations. I implore you to address 

15 the greenhouse gas problem in a way that's 

16 appropriate for a bona fide crisis that is in 

17 dire need of being fixed. If you fail in this 

18 task consider the unacceptable legacy we're 

19 leaving our children. You must not fail.

20 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Okay, 

21 moving along we have Anne Usher and Tanya Roland.

22 MS. ROLAND: Leave this?

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
145

1 MR. WAYLAND: Sure. Just right there on 

2 the corner. Thank you.

3 MS. ROLAND: Tanya Roland, R-O-L-A-N-D.

4 When I was a kid growing up in Arlington, 

5 we learned very early that carbon is 

6 carcinogenic, exceptionally toxic to our health. 

7 One would never willingly ingest it. So how 

8 deeply disturbing it was to learn that somehow 

9 when the Clean Air Act took effect in 1970, a 

10 wholesale ban on carbon emissions was not 

11 included. 

12 Apparently we have power plants in this 

13 country that account for 40 percent of these 

14 carcinogens that have been poisoning our air for 

15 decades and decades. The exceptionally powerful 

16 forces of money and profit have bought, coerced, 

17 and trumped the rights and freedoms of the many 

18 to breathe pure air, to profit the few without 

19 recourse.

20 We have very clear laws. We cannot kill, 

21 steal, lie, cheat, extort. If someone commits 

22 such crimes and is caught, there's appropriate 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
146

1 punishment. 

2 We also have very clear laws that give us 

3 freedoms, that allow us to live these freedoms 

4 within the confines of these laws, or else again, 

5 there are consequences.

6 We're blessed by life itself, with pure 

7 air to breathe, pure water to drink, pure earth 

8 to grow our food, and lots of space to move 

9 around in. These pristine elements belong to all 

10 of us, freely, and need to be protected as such 

11 from polluters and profiteers who would seek to 

12 deny us these fundamental rights.

13 Laws and regulations in this case are 

14 urgent. It's unconscionable that these 

15 industries have gotten away with polluting our 

16 air, water, and soil for as long as they have. 

17 All living things are at risk when we allow these 

18 toxins to permeate the only air that we breathe, 

19 and to settle and absorb into the water and soil 

20 that we drink and grow our food in.

21 The American Lung Association identifies 

22 particularly vulnerable of the human population 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
147

1 when it comes to these toxins. Just in the D.C., 

2 Virginia, Maryland, and West Virginia area, kids 

3 with asthma, 190,000; adults with asthma, 

4 570,000; people with COPD, 380,000; heart 

5 disease, 2.1 million; diabetes, 620,000; kids 

6 under 18, 2 million; elders over 65, 950,000; 

7 those in poverty, 800,000, for a total of 8.75 

8 million people at risk, with a total population 

9 of 8.5 million, that's over 100 percent of our 

10 population who is at risk because of air 

11 pollution, if my math is correct. That's you, 

12 me, and everyone we know, and everyone we don't 

13 know, all at risk.

14 Eradicating emissions obviously would be 

15 the best immediate solution. But for some reason 

16 on the table is merely limiting carbon emissions 

17 of new power plants built after today. I guess 

18 it's a start, but it's nowhere near enough. 

19 In a related note, trees, forests, and 

20 their ecosystems are crucial regarding our air 

21 and carbon as well. Trees effectively absorb air 

22 pollutants, including carbon. They provide 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
148

1 shade, habitat, and beauty. Yet in the D.C. 

2 area, and particularly in Northern Virginia I see 

3 little but full scale clear cutting of trees and 

4 habitats and ecosystems to put up roads, houses, 

5 office buildings. Tyson's Corner is a perfect 

6 example. Not long ago it was a forest. Now it's 

7 a blazing concrete monstrosity devoid of nature.

8 All around Arlington, Falls Church, 

9 Fairfax, Alexandria old trees are being felled 

10 with no thought of consequence. The few trees in 

11 that little natural habitat that we have left 

12 desperately needs to be protected now. Wide 

13 treed stands need to be protected along roads to 

14 absorb car and other deadly toxins, in schools, 

15 parks, median strips, malls, et cetera. We need 

16 designated wild areas within and amongst 

17 population centers to offset the heat created by 

18 out of control construction.

19 We need to replant, rewild where 

20 wholesale destruction has been allowed to take 

21 place. And the time to act is now. 

22 My mom chose to smoke. She had that 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
149

1 right. She knew it was slowly killing her. But 

2 power plants, cars, lawnmowers, airplanes, smoke 

3 stacks, et cetera, don't have the right to slowly 

4 kill us and our planet. We need sharp reductions 

5 and strident regulations of these emissions 

6 immediately. 

7 Polluters need to be held accountable and 

8 prosecuted for the deadly harm they're inflicting 

9 on all of us. It's up to us to envision and 

10 enact policies, industries, and actualities that 

11 will sharply reverse current trends, and to 

12 sustain our descendents deep into the future.

13 Some Native American nations plan for the 

14 next seven generations. I think we need to plan 

15 for the next 50, 100, 1,000 generations, and far 

16 far beyond. That doesn't mean, oh, let's find 

17 another planet to live on. No, these concepts 

18 are a cop out of the worst degree. There's no 

19 excuse for this madness to continue. Needless to 

20 say, I wholly support the EPA's efforts to 

21 greatly reduce carbon emissions in new power 

22 plants. Thank you.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
150

1 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you. Were you 

2 representing anyone, or yourself? 

3 MS. ROLAND: Just myself.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Just yourself. Okay. Thank 

5 you. Any questions?

6 MS. ROLAND: And those like-minded 

7 people.

8 MR. WAYLAND: Questions?

9 MR. STEVENS: No, thanks. 

10 MR. WAYLAND: Okay. Thank you, very 

11 much.

12 MS. USHER: Hi.

13 MR. WAYLAND: How are you doing?

14 MS. USHER: My name is Anne Usher, and 

15 I'm a former journalist and currently a volunteer 

16 with the Virginia Chapter of the Sierra Club. 

17 First, thank you for holding this 

18 hearing. For more than 40 years the 

19 Environmental Protection Agency has been 

20 regulated -- has been allowed to regulate air 

21 pollution because of its direct harm to 

22 Americans' health. The EPA now has an equal and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
151

1 scientists would argue, far more urgent duty to 

2 regulate CO2 emissions. It is now beyond dispute 

3 that these emissions will not only directly 

4 impact the global environment and our environment 

5 here at home, but also directly and indirectly 

6 impact our welfare as human beings.

7 Here on the East Coast, we have witnessed 

8 the ravaging effects of Hurricane Sandy. Climate 

9 scientists predict that we will see more 

10 superstorms, sea level rise that will alter our 

11 coast lines, and more prolonged droughts, such as 

12 we've witnessed in Texas and are now witnessing 

13 in California.

14 In Northern Virginia where I live, this 

15 ability to regulate carbon emissions has never 

16 been more crucial. Just under half the 

17 electricity that powers my state and my home 

18 comes from dirty coal-fired power plants. These 

19 plants are directly contributing, of course to 

20 climate change. And our coastal towns are indeed 

21 on the front lines. 

22 Some lawmakers, whose campaigns I note 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
152

1 have been heavily funded by this industry, claim 

2 that taking this responsible action might cost 

3 jobs. On the contrary, in Virginia, clean energy 

4 jobs are actually increasing at a rate of more 

5 than 8 percent a year. The old jobs, the old, 

6 dirty, carbon jobs, are actually already falling 

7 off because coal deposits in very steep erosion8 prone sleeps, at least in Southern Virginia, are 

9 actually nearly fully exploited.

10 Still, much more needs to be done to 

11 encourage this sector in Virginia. Only four 

12 percent of electricity is expected to come from 

13 clean renewable sources, including solar and 

14 wind, this year. Virginia's goal by 2025 is a 

15 mere 15 percent for renewable energy. 

16 That pace simply isn't fast enough. 

17 Right now we have no utility scale wind and solar 

18 projects in Virginia, and very, very few customer 

19 owned solar projects. This and other -- I'm 

20 sorry, EPA proposals are ultimately about taking 

21 modest steps to limit carbon emissions from the 

22 dirtiest coal plants in our Nation, and ensure 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
153

1 the new ones meet a higher threshold.

2 The technologies to meet the new 

3 standards are readily available. Companies are 

4 already taking advantage of this. This action 

5 merely ensures that this progress continues.

6 In Alexandria, I don't know a single 

7 person who didn't rejoice when a large coal-fired 

8 power plant, a plant that sent dangerous amounts 

9 of mercury into the air in addition to heat 

10 trapping CO2, was finally retired. I'm a runner 

11 and I was really thrilled to finally be able to 

12 run along the Potomac without thinking about 

13 this.

14 But this has not been enough. The 

15 Federal Government must urgently intervene, in 

16 part because states like mine simply have not 

17 done nearly enough to bring CO2 emissions down on 

18 their own. 

19 We already limit arsenic, lead, soot, and 

20 other pollutants from power plants. The 

21 authority to limit dangerous carbon emissions has 

22 already been upheld by the Supreme Court. It's 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
154

1 now time for action, for ourselves, for the 

2 health of the planet, and for the next 

3 generation. Thank you.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Any 

5 questions?

6 MR. STEVENS: None from me, thanks.

7 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, both. Thank 

8 you.

9 Okay. Our next two speakers will be 

10 Carla Aronsohn and Richard Ball. 

11 MS. ARONSOHN: All right. Hello. Thank 

12 you for listening to us speak today.

13 My name is Carla Aronsohn. It's Carla 

14 with a C an then A-R-O-N-S-O-H-N.

15 Today I'm here with Environment America, 

16 and I'm originally from Miami, Florida. I was 

17 born in 1990, which will date me. But a couple 

18 years after I was born a devastating superstorm, 

19 Hurricane Andrew, hit Miami, Florida, demolished 

20 our house and is one of the most costly storms 

21 after Hurricane Katrina. And it's clear that 

22 this extreme weather is hitting closer and closer 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
155

1 to home. And the IPCC, which is made up of 

2 leading climate experts, as well as government 

3 bodies has already confirmed that the frequency 

4 and severity of extreme weather events like these 

5 will continue to increase unless we dramatically 

6 cut the carbon pollution that is fueling global 

7 climate change.

8 And Environment America's research in 

9 Policy Center's recent report, America's Dirtiest 

10 Power Plants, shows that America's power plants 

11 are the single largest source of carbon 

12 pollution. And a handful of these dirtiest 

13 plants have made up a huge portion of our total 

14 emissions. 

15 And to put it into perspective, the 50 

16 dirtiest plants in the United States emit more 

17 carbon pollution than all of the countries, 

18 except for six countries. 

19 And if we want a cleaner, safer future 

20 for our kids, we can't afford to ignore power 

21 plants' outsized contribution to global climate 

22 change. Tackling the problem means cleaning up 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
156

1 our dirtiest power plants and setting new strict 

2 standards on the newest power plants. 

3 And now we have a very big opportunity to 

4 meet the challenge of the global climate crisis

5 and the Climate Action Plan that President Obama 

6 laid out this past summer calls on the EPA to 

7 propose limits on carbon pollution from new and 

8 existing power plants.

9 And we have already, the community, has 

10 already submitted more than 3 million public 

11 comments in support of limiting carbon pollution 

12 from power plants. And hundreds of elected 

13 officials, business leaders, and organizations 

14 have voiced their support in reigning in on these 

15 biggest polluters. 

16 And we know that there's a better way 

17 than these dirty power plants. This is a problem 

18 that has a solution. We can harness the wind and 

19 the sun, make our buildings smarter and more 

20 efficient, educate the youth about environmental 

21 issues, and eventually slash our dependence on 

22 the dirtiest sources of energy.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
157

1 And we know what it will take to get 

2 there, and America has already taken some steps 

3 to shift away from dirty power plants. The peak 

4 of carbon pollution was in 2005, and since then 

5 we've decreased it by 11 percent. But we still 

6 have a long way to go in solving the climate 

7 crisis.

8 And power companies and coal industry who 

9 profit from pollution, along with their allies in 

10 congress, are definitely gearing up to fight to 

11 protect their pockets. And these folks are also 

12 just laughing from their extravagant lifestyles 

13 at climate change as even President Barack Obama 

14 has endorsed natural gas and fracking as a bridge 

15 fuel for America.

16 It is also completely unfair that these 

17 affluent companies can put some of the Nation's 

18 most vulnerable communities at risk. 

19 For example, some of the biggest effects 

20 of climate change and power plant emissions, the 

21 burden is beared by some of the Nation's most 

22 lowest income people.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
158

1 And these are reasons that the tip of the 

2 melting iceberg of why we need to act now and get 

3 our country's leaders to join us in to supporting 

4 a plan to tackle climate change by limiting 

5 carbon pollution. 

6 It is true that climate change's worst 

7 impacts will be felt by future generations. But 

8 the crippling drought that we see in California, 

9 devastating wild fires, and destructive 

10 hurricanes are a problem for our generation. And 

11 let's not ignore the message that these 

12 devastating events are sending us. Failure to 

13 act would be a betrayal to our future 

14 generations. 

15 So Environment America calls on the EPA 

16 to join us in supporting limits on carbon 

17 pollution from power plants, and America is one 

18 of the biggest emitters of carbon pollution. And 

19 while we consider ourselves one of the most 

20 powerful countries in the world, we are about to 

21 fall far behind on moving towards a clean energy 

22 future and we can't afford to wait to act on 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
159

1 climate. So it's critical that the EPA step up 

2 and support action now. Thank you very much.

3 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you. Questions?

4 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you. 

5 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Mr. 

6 Ball. 

7 MR. BALL: Yes. My name is Richard Ball. 

8 I live in Annandale, Virginia. I am a retired 

9 energy policy and technology analyst, and I 

10 worked on climate change science.

11 Incidentally, part of my work in energy 

12 policy and technology was during the '70s at EPA, 

13 and later for 22 more years at the Department of 

14 Energy. I was also a lead author on Working 

15 Group 2 for the first and second IPCC 

16 assessments.

17 I'm speaking here today on my own behalf. 

18 I support the proposed NSPS Carbon Rule as a very 

19 important step forward in reducing U.S. carbon 

20 emissions and a signal to the rest of the world 

21 about our seriousness in mitigating global 

22 warming and ocean acidification.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
160

1 However, in my remarks today I want to 

2 indicate that I believe the proposed regulations 

3 are quite conservative and could be -- it would 

4 be possible and desirable to strengthen and 

5 improve upon this rule in several key respects as 

6 follows.

7 First of all, the rule for natural gas 

8 plants could be made more stringent by, say about

9 20 percent, I believe, to better reflect the best 

10 available technologies for generating electricity 

11 from natural gas.

12 Many new combined cycle gas turbine 

13 plants already in service achieve carbon 

14 emissions of less than 800 pounds per megawatt 

15 hour. 

16 To look at it from this perspective, one 

17 might conclude that natural gas effectively is 

18 getting a free ride on CO2 control because it 

19 doesn't seem to require them to do much more than 

20 they're already doing.

21 The proposed coal plant standard, while a 

22 huge step forward, still appears weaker than it 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
161

1 might be since it is based only a 40 percent 

2 capture rate by CCS equipment. Several coal 

3 plants under construction and designs exist for 

4 all types of new coal plants with carbon capture 

5 and storage that incorporate capture rates of up 

6 to 90 percent. 

7 Plants with 90 percent capture translate 

8 the CO2 emission rates much less than 300 pounds 

9 per megawatt hour. It probably -- and I think 

10 looking at this from a long-term economic 

11 perspective, it probably would be economically 

12 inefficient to build a coal plant with a more 

13 modest rate of capture and then have to require a 

14 later major retrofit to a higher level of capture 

15 when it becomes necessary to reduce carbon 

16 emissions even further in the future.

17 The third point is that greenhouse gases, 

18 other than carbon dioxide should be taken into 

19 account, especially methane which is the major 

20 component of natural gas of course. And 

21 considerable leakage occurs in the natural gas 

22 production and use cycle. I think exactly how 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
162

1 much is still a controversial issue of course.

2 My fourth point, if CCS, carbon capture 

3 and storage, is applicable to coal-fired power 

4 plants, at least in theory it should be even more 

5 applicable to natural gas-fired plants because it 

6 is technically easier and more cost effective to 

7 log carbon capture to more thermally efficient 

8 plants. Although of course, none appear to have 

9 actually been demonstrated.

10 Designs for natural gas combined cycle 

11 with 90 percent capture would translate into an 

12 emission rate of less than 100 pounds per 

13 megawatt hour. 

14 From a systems perspective several other 

15 attributes of power plants than just pounds of 

16 CO2 per kilowatt hour at the stack, affect their 

17 overall contribution to the electric grid and to 

18 carbon emissions. These attributes potentially 

19 could be evaluated and possibly included in an 

20 integrated rule, at least in a future iteration 

21 of the NSPS.

22 I would cite in particular, the ability 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
163

1 of the plant to ramp power output up and down 

2 rapidly to respond to grid needs, which can 

3 greatly affect the ability to integrate 

4 intermittent renewables into the grid, and also 

5 the need to operate higher emitting sources such 

6 as peaking turbines or old coal and gas plants to 

7 do load following.

8 So, if a requirement could be imposed, or 

9 an incentive in the standards to encourage more 

10 flexible load following combined cycle gas plants 

11 that would reduce greenhouse gas emissions beyond 

12 those just in the unit in question. But that's 

13 obviously a more complicated issue that would 

14 have to be tackled in a future iteration.

15 And as I mentioned, consideration of fuel 

16 cycle emissions of greenhouse gases from 

17 production and natural gas and other fuels used 

18 in power plants would be another step in looking 

19 at it from a systems perspective. That might 

20 place natural gas plants on a more level playing 

21 field with other fuels, and thus be viewed by 

22 industry as more fair. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
164

1 However, an accounting for methane 

2 emissions in general, EPA I would urge to use a 

3 more realistic formula for its impact on the 

4 simple global warming potential hundred-year 

5 estimate which has been used of 21, which I 

6 believe is now out of date with the latest IPC 

7 estimates, and does not reflect the latest 

8 atmospheric chemistry modeling, nor the short9 term impact such as the 20-year GWP, which taking 

10 those things into account can lead to an 

11 effective GWP value greater than 100.

12 Another point is that some of the -- I 

13 would say, however, looking at all those other 

14 improvements, since some of those improvements 

15 might complicate the regulatory process, and 

16 since basing the coal standard on partial 

17 implementation of CCS arguably will have little 

18 or no practical effect in the next few years, I 

19 therefore would urge EPA to move forward with the 

20 rule as proposed, at least in preference to 

21 delaying the process any longer. 

22 But it would be preferable if possible to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
165

1 set tighter and numerical limits.

2 MR. WAYLAND: Mr. Ball, I'd like to ask 

3 you to wrap up your comments as --

4 MR. BALL: Okay. I'm just about done. 

5 More far-reaching improvements should be 

6 considered for implementation in the next few 

7 years.

8 One other point, and this is a more of a 

9 long-term strategy than relevant to this 

10 standard. EPA and other agencies of the Federal 

11 Government should be moving forward to analyze 

12 the overall longer term impacts of all fossil 

13 plants that may be constructed in the near 

14 future, and considering whether efforts should be 

15 put in to encouraging demonstration of carbon 

16 capture and storage technology applied to natural 

17 gas plants. 

18 I thank you for your time.

19 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. Any 

20 questions?

21 MR. STEVENS: No, thanks. Thank you.

22 MR. BALL: Any questions?

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
166

1 MR. WAYLAND: I did. I had one quick 

2 question when you were referring to the natural 

3 gas plants and applying carbon capture and 

4 storage to those. Did you say that that 

5 technology was demonstrated or was not 

6 demonstrated?

7 MR. BALL: I'm sorry. Technology for 

8 which?

9 MR. WAYLAND: For having CCS on gas 

10 plants.

11 MR. BALL: I said it was not.

12 MR. WAYLAND: Was not.

13 MR. BALL: Yes. As far as I know, it 

14 hasn't been demonstrated yet, at least in the 

15 U.S.

16 MR. WAYLAND: Okay. Thank you, very 

17 much.

18 Okay. Our next two speakers will be Mark 

19 Magana and Jackie Weidman -- Jackie Weidman. 

20 MS. WEIDMAN: Hello. My name is Jackie 

21 Weidman and I will be testifying on behalf of 

22 Nicole Hernandez Hammer, who unfortunately cannot 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
167

1 be here today. So I'd like to request that the 

2 following comments be submitted, for the record, 

3 on her behalf. 

4 MR. WAYLAND: Sure.

5 MS. WEIDMAN: So thank you for the 

6 opportunity to submit these comments. My name is 

7 Nicole Hernandez Hammer. I am the Assistant 

8 Director of Climate Change and Research for the 

9 Florida Center for Environmental Studies, and a 

10 Latino Outreach Consultant for the Union of 

11 Concerned Scientists. 

12 As a sea level rise researcher, I work to 

13 better understand the causes and impacts of sea 

14 level rise on coastal regions of the United 

15 States. 

16 As a Latina, I am particularly interested 

17 in what the sea level rise implications are for 

18 U.S. Hispanic communities. We know that most of 

19 the amount of sea level rise we have seen over 

20 the past 100 years is a direct cause of human21 induced climate change. And we know that the 

22 primary cause of climate change is carbon 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
168

1 pollution and the primary source of carbon 

2 pollution is fossil fueled power plants.

3 That's why the proposed standards that we 

4 are discussing today are so important. When they 

5 are finalized they will put the first ever 

6 national limits on the amount of carbon pollution 

7 that power plants can emit, and that will be a 

8 big step in protecting our communities from the 

9 damage caused by climate change, including sea 

10 level rise. 

11 Sea level rise is one of the many impacts 

12 of climate change, and it poses severe 

13 consequences for many communities across the 

14 country. Sea level rise is linked to polluted 

15 water, loss of land, and fiercer storms. 

16 There is a lot of information on which 

17 places will be under water in the next 20, 40, 

18 and 100 plus -- or 80 plus years, and the 

19 projections are grim.

20 Nationally there are efforts under way to 

21 figure out what kind of people are most at risk 

22 to sea level rise. Are they rich or poor, young 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
169

1 or old? So far, though, there is little 

2 information on what sea level rise means for 

3 Latinos.

4 But I have compared Climate Central's 

5 list of the most vulnerable U.S. locations to sea 

6 level rise, and notice that they all have 

7 something in common. I have family that live in 

8 these places, in New York and California, North 

9 Carolina, Florida, Texas. Comparing the Climate 

10 Central list to the 2010 census report I 

11 discovered that these are the same places that 

12 have the largest and/or fastest growing Hispanic 

13 communities in the country.

14 For example, according to a 2008 report 

15 from the Organization for Economic Cooperation 

16 and Development, Miami is the number one most 

17 economically vulnerable place to sea level rise 

18 in the world. Its population also happens to be 

19 close to 70 percent Hispanic.

20 I grew up in Southeast Florida. It's 

21 where I've chosen to work and raise my family. 

22 It's a wonderful place and I am lucky to call it 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
170

1 home. For us, sea level rise is not just a 

2 future threat. We are already seeing impacts 

3 now. Cities in our region have lost drinking 

4 water wells to salt water contamination, and as a 

5 result, are drilling new wells inland. 

6 There are hundreds of millions of dollars 

7 being spent on projects to manage the ever 

8 growing frequency of urban flooding during 

9 seasonal high tides, and projected billions of 

10 dollars to be spent in the next 20 years. 

11 Mayors and city officials are meeting to 

12 learn more about the issue and to gather 

13 resources and tools to adapt to these problems. 

14 And at times there has even been discussion on 

15 how to manage or treat from urban areas that in 

16 the next 30 to 50 years may be unsalvageable from 

17 permanent inundation.

18 My colleagues in other coastal states 

19 have very similar stories of urgent adaptation 

20 needs. We are dealing with the impacts of what 

21 ultimately amounts to bad choices, weak policies, 

22 and soft regulations that have exacerbated the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
171

1 problem of climate change and now the 

2 consequences are at our front door.

3 But there is still a narrow window of 

4 time for us to make the right choices, to take 

5 responsibility, and act to mitigate carbon 

6 emissions. The best way to do that is to 

7 finalize proposed standards for power plants that 

8 we're discussing today, and place the first ever 

9 national limits on pollution that power plants 

10 can emit.

11 As Hispanics we are paying close 

12 attention to this issue because we know that our 

13 communities will suffer disproportionately. 

14 Because of the rate of sea level rise and the 

15 severity of its consequences, the immediate 

16 future of our local economies, public health, and 

17 natural resources all hang in the balance.

18 Many Hispanics like me are first19 generation immigrants and understand the 

20 sacrifices that are required when starting a new 

21 life in a new country. These are sacrifices that 

22 we gladly make to provide a better life for 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
172

1 ourselves and our families, but while we work to 

2 build a future the looming threat of sea level 

3 rise is endangering what we are working so hard 

4 for.

5 As our leaders, we rely on you to take 

6 all the possible steps to mitigate this threat. 

7 We know that these hard choices can't be put off 

8 any longer and what these choices will determine 

9 is what kind of future we leave for the next 

10 generation. 

11 As a Hispanic-American who cares about 

12 clean air, public health, and climate change, I 

13 urge you to finalize strong carbon standards that 

14 reduce the pollution from power plants. Thank 

15 you for taking this significant next step to 

16 tackle climate change and for allowing me to 

17 speak with you today.

18 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. 

19 Questions?

20 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you. 

21 MR. WAYLAND: Okay. 

22 MR. MAGANA: Gentleman, thanks for taking 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
173

1 the time to hear the public on this very 

2 important issue. My name is Mark Magana and I am 

3 the executive director of the National Latino 

4 Coalition on Climate Change and Green Latinos.

5 I am here today as a member of Green 

6 Latinos representing the diverse Latino community 

7 in the United States who vehemently supports EPA 

8 in regulating carbon pollution from new power 

9 plants with the strongest possible rules.

10 Carbon pollution has disproportionately 

11 negative impacts on our Latino communities, and 

12 as the fastest growing population in this 

13 country, Latino voices on this issue must be 

14 heard.

15 We are a large coalition of national 

16 Latino organizations, grassroots supporters, 

17 community leaders, and Latino advocates from 

18 across the Nation, working to ensure that our 

19 community has an integral voice in the National 

20 dialog on climate change and energy policy.

21 We are raising awareness about global 

22 warming and the impact of climate change in 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
174

1 Latino communities and building the capacity 

2 needed to support grassroots advocacy efforts 

3 through research, policy, and educational 

4 outreach.

5 NLCCC is pleased to be able to present 

6 our concerns at this public hearing on the 

7 proposed carbon pollution standards to reduce 

8 carbon pollution from newer power plants. Our 

9 coalition partners are deeply concerned about the 

10 continued adverse impacts that harmful 

11 pollutants, particularly from coal-fired power 

12 plants are causing on Hispanic and other 

13 communities of color. 

14 Nearly 40 percent of Latinos live within 

15 30 miles of a power plant, an area that's most 

16 susceptible to the negative effects of fine 

17 particulate soot in the air. As a consequence, 

18 Latino communities are disproportionately 

19 impacted by the toxic pollutants that are 

20 discharged from power plants. 

21 This air pollution represents an extreme 

22 health risk for the Latino community, including 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
175

1 breathing problems and low birth weight babies 

2 with stunted lung growth. The rate of asthma in 

3 these communities is reaching epidemic 

4 proportions. The high poverty rate in the Latino 

5 community often restricts the housing options of 

6 the Latino community. They are often left with 

7 no choice but to live in the undesirable low rent 

8 communities that are near power plants.

9 More than seven out of ten Hispanics live 

10 in counties that violate federal air pollution 

11 standards for one or more pollutants. It is 

12 because Latinos and other traditionally 

13 underrepresented communities are so 

14 disproportionately impacted by these harmful 

15 pollutants that NLCCC urges the EPA to adopt the 

16 strictest possible carbon pollution standards for 

17 new power plants that will adequately protect our 

18 communities. 

19 In our coalition's view, we must close 

20 the Clean Air Act's 40-year loophole for power 

21 plants and make them comply with modern emission 

22 control standards. These rules are essential to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
176

1 protect the health of our members and necessary 

2 to guarantee the safety of the air of Hispanic 

3 communities nationwide. Thank you.

4 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, very much. Any 

5 questions?

6 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you.

7 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you. 

8 Okay. Thanks everyone who has stuck it 

9 out for the entire morning. We have, right now, 

10 four more speakers and then we'll take a lunch 

11 break, which everybody is probably ready for 

12 that. But we'll go through these four and then I 

13 will open it up at the end of that if there's 

14 anybody that wants to address the hearing this 

15 morning before lunch. We'll accommodate that and 

16 then we'll break for lunch and reconvene back 

17 here in this room at 1:00. 

18 So, with that, Lucia Hennelly and Martin 

19 Witchgor. 

20 MS. HENNELLY: Good morning. My name is 

21 Lucia Oliva Hennelly. I work with Environmental 

22 Defense Fund, a nonpartisan environmental 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
177

1 organization with more than 750,000 members 

2 nationwide.

3 I'm here today as a member of the diverse 

4 Latino community in the United States to support 

5 EPA in regulating carbon pollution from new power 

6 plants with the strongest possible rules.

7 Carbon pollution has disproportionate 

8 negative impacts on our Latino communities. And 

9 as the fastest growing population in this 

10 country, Latino voices on this issue must be 

11 heard. 

12 I am delivering comments on behalf of 

13 someone who could not be here today, Adrianne 

14 Shelley, Executive Director, with a partner 

15 organization, Air Alliance Houston, but because 

16 carbon pollution impacts Latino communities 

17 everywhere, not just in Washington.

18 As the Houston region's leading air 

19 quality and public health nonprofit, we at Air 

20 Alliance Houston are mindful of the effects that 

21 carbon pollution has on our local communities. 

22 For two years running, Harris County has 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
178

1 been the fastest growing county in the nation, 

2 and Houston is the most diverse major city in the 

3 United States. It's a majority/minority city, 

4 and more than a third of its residents are 

5 Latinos. 

6 Harris County is also ground zero for the 

7 Environmental Justice movement. Although 

8 everyone in Harris County could suffer from the 

9 effects of climate change, we can expect our low10 income communities of color, including many 

11 Latinos, to suffer disproportionately. There are 

12 several reasons for this.

13 First, these communities are in the most 

14 vulnerable locations. Many of our Environmental 

15 Justice communities are in Houston's east end and

16 along the Houston's ship channel. These 

17 communities are on the front lines of any 

18 potential sea level rise or major hurricanes, 

19 both exacerbated by climate change. The primary 

20 cause of climate change is carbon pollution, and 

21 the primary source of carbon pollution is fossil 

22 fuel fired power plants. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
179

1 This is what makes the proposed standards 

2 we are discussing today so important. When they 

3 are finalized, they will put the first ever 

4 national limits on the amount of carbon pollution 

5 that power plants can emit. That's a major step 

6 toward protecting our communities from the damage 

7 caused by climate change. In Houston, these are 

8 communities that are surrounded by our city's 

9 petro-chemical industry, refineries, chemical 

10 plants, tank farms, and the like. 

11 Some estimates have suggested that 1,400 

12 tanks in Houston are at serious risk should a 25-

13 foot storm surge occur. Those tanks threaten our 

14 most vulnerable residents. It should also be 

15 noted that these are lower income residents, 

16 including many Latinos who are less likely to 

17 have flood insurance.

18 Second, the public health impacts of 

19 climate change will disproportionately impact our 

20 Environmental Justice communities. Climate 

21 change will lead to such adverse affects as 

22 rising sea levels, extreme weather events, heat 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
180

1 and drought. Many of these impacts will weigh 

2 more heavily on Houston's vulnerable populations.

3 Climate change, exacerbated by carbon 

4 pollution will also lead to an exacerbation of 

5 ambient air pollution, particularly ozone. 

6 Our Environmental Justice communities 

7 already suffer worse air quality than most of 

8 Houston and under the threat of climate change 

9 they can expect to suffer more, as some of my 

10 colleagues have shared with you today, or will 

11 share with you later.

12 Third, the health of Environmental 

13 Justice communities is already compromised. Our 

14 surveys of Houston ship channel residents show 

15 that they suffer more health problems than the 

16 rest of Texas. Fully 27 percent suffer from 

17 asthma or another respiratory disease, compared 

18 to 12.7 percent of Texans at large. Similarly 

19 5.6 percent of ship channel residents report 

20 having cancer, compared to 3.7 percent of Texans 

21 overall.

22 Texas also has the most uninsured 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
181

1 residents of any state in the nation. Our 

2 surveys indicate that 51 percent of ship channel 

3 residents do not have healthcare coverage. 

4 Houston has been called the energy 

5 capital of the world. At Air Alliance Houston, 

6 we do not believe we are accurately measuring the 

7 true cost of the energy we produce. It can be 

8 measured in billions of dollars of corporate 

9 profit, or it can be measured in years and lives 

10 lost within our vulnerable populations. 

11 We refuse to weigh dollars against lives 

12 and we are unsympathetic to claims that bringing 

13 our nation's carbon emissions under control is 

14 not economically feasible. For more than a 

15 century, Houston has been home to great technical 

16 advances in energy economy. We have great faith 

17 in our business community. It has risen to 

18 challenges in the past and it will do so again. 

19 We call on the EPA to regulate carbon 

20 pollution from new power plants with the 

21 strongest possible rules, and on the business 

22 community to embrace regulations that will lead 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
182

1 us all into the clean, healthy, energy economy of 

2 the future. Thank you for the opportunity to 

3 comment and please feel free contact us if you 

4 have further questions.

5 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, very much. 

6 Questions?

7 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you.

8 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you.

9 MR. WITCHGOR: Good morning. I'm here 

10 today as a member of the diverse Latino community 

11 in the United States to support --

12 MR. WAYLAND: Could you state your name 

13 for the record, please?

14 MR. WITCHGOR: Yes. My name is Martin 

15 Witchgor, and as an environmentalist, a young 

16 person, a Latino, my name is -- I support the EPA 

17 in strongly regulating carbon pollution from 

18 power plants. 

19 As I said, I'm a part of the -- a member 

20 of the diverse Latino community that supports the 

21 EPA in regulating carbon pollution from new power 

22 plants with the strongest rules possible. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
183

1 Carbon pollution has disproportionate 

2 negative impacts on our Latino communities, and 

3 as the fastest growing population in this 

4 country, Latino voices on this issue must be 

5 heard.

6 I also work at the League of Conservation 

7 Voters and engage Latinos online and offline in 

8 environmental and climate issues across the 

9 United States.

10 While Latinos are a diverse and broad 

11 population, we are definitely environmentalists, 

12 as several of my colleagues and friends have 

13 demonstrated before me and will later today.

14 I too, in my work, know this to be true. 

15 I recently sent out a poll to the thousands of 

16 our Latino members of the League of Conservation 

17 Voters, asking them what environmental issues 

18 were most important to them. The top two issues 

19 were curbing climate change and addressing toxic 

20 pollution in our communities. We Latinos 

21 understand this issue. They're important to us 

22 for the health of our families, our communities, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
184

1 and our planet. 

2 I'd like to speak for a moment to the 

3 public health aspect of these carbon regulations. 

4 My older brother, Filipe has asthma, and I myself 

5 also suffered from asthmatic conditions in my 

6 childhood. While I don't believe our asthma was 

7 caused by poor air quality in our neighborhoods 

8 growing up, I understand firsthand experiences 

9 that are endured by millions of Americans, and 

10 millions of Latinos among them, that suffer from 

11 asthma. Many of those children and adults 

12 afflicted with these illnesses live in 

13 communities with poor air quality, including more 

14 than half of all Latinos who live in the 25 most 

15 ozone polluted cities in the country. 

16 When I think of my brother and his asthma 

17 attacks as a kid, I believe no family should have 

18 to endure that. Especially if it's because they 

19 live in the United States today where smog and 

20 poor air quality persist due to the warming 

21 climate brought on by this unlimited spewing of 

22 harmful carbon pollution by power plants. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
185

1 For our health, the EPA needs to instate 

2 strong rules to limit carbon pollution from power 

3 plants. 

4 I have grown up in the climate 

5 generation. Many of my friends are climate 

6 organizers, working with fellow young adults and 

7 students to be climate voters, climate activists, 

8 and motivating each other to address climate 

9 change; the single biggest issue our society has 

10 ever faced.

11 I plan to dedicate my career to 

12 addressing the climate crisis. To me and to 

13 fellow young adults inheriting our world, we know 

14 this is a huge challenge, but understand it is a 

15 necessity to get off fossil fuels and build a 

16 clean, safe, and just energy economy. 

17 I am here today on behalf of those Latino 

18 members I work with, on behalf of my brother and 

19 all those with asthma, and together with the rest 

20 of my generation to bring their message to you 

21 and to ask the EPA to limit carbon pollution from 

22 all power plants with the strongest rules 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
186

1 possible. Thank you.

2 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, very much. 

3 Questions?

4 MR. STEVENS: No. Thank you.

5 MR. WAYLAND: Okay. Thank you, both.

6 Okay. Our final two speakers this 

7 morning will be Glen Besa and James Mullins.

8 MR. BESA: Do you need both these mics at 

9 the same time or --

10 MR. WAYLAND: Yes, please. 

11 MR. BESA: Sure.

12 MR. WAYLAND: One is for amplification, 

13 the other one is for recording.

14 MR. BESA: Sure. Fair enough. Thank 

15 you.

16 Hi there. My name is Glen Besa. I'm the 

17 director of the Sierra Club, the Virginia 

18 Chapter. I live in Richmond, Virginia. I'm 

19 speaking for the Sierra Club, Virginia Chapter. 

20 We are extremely concerned about climate 

21 change. From a personal perspective my mother22 in-law's home has been flooded three times in 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
187

1 Hampton, Virginia, a region of the country which 

2 is designated as the second most vulnerable to 

3 sea level rise from climate change in the 

4 country, second only to New Orleans.

5 We're here to support the CO2's actions 

6 for CO2 reductions to address climate change. 

7 But we do urge more aggressive action to reduce 

8 CO2, particularly from gas plants. Natural gas 

9 is not a bridge fuel. In Virginia our biggest 

10 utility, Dominion Virginia Power, and also our 

11 biggest CO2 emitter, is proposing to build or is 

12 currently building three new gas plants over the 

13 next 15 years. 

14 Their numbers, not ours. They're 

15 proposing a 37 percent increase in CO2. A 37 

16 percent increase in CO2 as a result of expanded 

17 gas burning at a time when the climate science 

18 says that we need to reduce our CO2 emissions, 

19 not increase them. Again, a 37 percent increase 

20 in CO2 as a result of expanding their use of gas.

21 Tighter controls on carbon is essential 

22 to meet the demands of climate science, and the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
188

1 goals that this country has agreed to with 

2 respect to that climate science to keep our 

3 global average temperature below two degrees 

4 Celsius.

5 Additionally, tighter controls on CO2

6 will result in expediting the transition to wind, 

7 solar, and efficiency, particularly in states 

8 like Virginia which have done very little to 

9 incentivize wind, solar, and efficiency. And in 

10 fact, they lag behind much of the nation, while 

11 they still incentivize coal and gas. In fact, 

12 about $38 million a year goes to subsidizing coal 

13 development in the State of Virginia, when there 

14 is virtually no incentives for clean energy. We 

15 have to get on with this work.

16 So I would urge you to go forward with 

17 the regulations you have without delay, but as 

18 was mentioned earlier I think it's important to 

19 revise those regulations as soon as possible to 

20 tighten up the CO2 emissions, particularly for 

21 gas plants, new gas plants, and I look forward to 

22 seeing you soon again in support of emissions for 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
189

1 existing fossil fuel power plants. Thank you so 

2 much.

3 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, very much. 

4 Questions?

5 MR. STEVENS: No, thank you.

6 MR. FELLNER: No.

7 MR. MULLINS: Thank you. My name is 

8 James Mullins and I am from southwestern 

9 Virginia. I come here representing myself and my 

10 family, and especially my children.

11 I'm a former fourth generation 

12 Appalachian coal miner. I worked underground 

13 like my father, my grandfathers, my great14 grandfather, multiple uncles, cousins. Coal is a 

15 part of life in southwestern Virginia. It's been 

16 the main stake of employment and the economy for 

17 many years. The mantra going on there now is, 

18 "Coal keeps the lights on." Like it is in most 

19 other coal-producing areas within the United 

20 States.

21 But, you know, whenever you look out over 

22 a large city at night and you see all those 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
190

1 various lights lit up, you begin to wonder if 

2 there's too many lights on. 

3 I had to move my family out of the valley 

4 that we called home for 10 generations. Mountain 

5 top removal coal mining practices have 

6 eviscerated all the mountains and destroyed the 

7 aquifers. The spring that we used for four 

8 generations turned acidic. We've seen the entire 

9 creek going down our hollow, turn white from 

10 hydraulic oil that somebody let loose on the 

11 mountain top removal site from one of the pieces 

12 of machinery. And I personally, unfortunately, 

13 have been privy and participated in the act of 

14 releasing used motor oils, gear oils, and 

15 hydraulic oils inside an underground mine. 

16 Upwards of 1,000 gallons over the course of a 

17 year, in some respects.

18 These are not chemicals that are just 

19 easily left behind. They end up in our water 

20 sources and as the cancer rates increase we had 

21 to begin to wonder what the next step is. 

22 The carbon pollution standard I believe 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
191

1 is one of the best things that we can be doing as 

2 a nation to spur on energy efficiency. We need 

3 to be able to reduce the amount of carbon 

4 emissions and increase the levels in which we try 

5 to save that energy so we no longer have to 

6 extract these resources and destroy people's 

7 homes.

8 And it doesn't just include coal. It 

9 includes oil and natural gas. A lot of people do 

10 not associate fracking with southwestern Virginia 

11 and the coalfields, but it's been going on there 

12 for quite some time now. 

13 So, the EPA, moving forward with this, is 

14 pivotal for our children to be able to continue 

15 to live in a clean environment so that they don't 

16 have to worry about those risks of cancer, the 

17 risks of birth defects that have recently come 

18 out. It's just thinking back to all the 

19 destruction, it's just not worth it on the long20 term. We can use energy efficiency jobs to 

21 easily replace those of coal, of natural gas, and 

22 even of oil if we needed to. Thank you.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
192

1 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, very much. Any 

2 questions? 

3 (Applause.)

4 MR. WAYLAND: Is there anyone in the room 

5 that would like to address the hearing this 

6 morning before we break for lunch?

7 Yes, sir.

8 MR. CANDLER: I have a -- 

9 MR. WAYLAND: Sure. That's fine. 

10 MR. CANDLER: My name is Wilfred Candler, 

11 and this is a diagram of (indiscernible). 

12 MR. WAYLAND: Okay.

13 MR. CANDLER: That's a new copy. Do you 

14 have anybody else? I'm just it?

15 MR. WAYLAND: Sure. Oh, yes. Yes. You 

16 can go. 

17 MS. MATTESON: Okay.

18 MR. WAYLAND: Yes, that will be fine.

19 MS. MATTESON: Thank you, very much. Is 

20 this one working? 

21 My name is Tyla Matteson, M-A-T-T-E-S-O22 N. And 4896 Bernham Road in North Chesterfield, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
193

1 Virginia. Thank you, very much for staying over 

2 into your lunch for a moment.

3 I wish to speak to have the EPA set 

4 highest standards possible in order for carbons 

5 to be regulated and reduced from new power 

6 plants. 

7 It is a well-known scientific fact that 

8 climate change is occurring and the resulting 

9 disruptions include more frequent and severe 

10 storms, droughts, acidification of oceans and 

11 more. 

12 Wildlife must deal with changing weather 

13 patterns. Humans are suffering with lands lost 

14 to sea level rise, violent weather events, and 

15 destructions to their homes and loss of life. 

16 My mother lives in a home in Hampton, 

17 Virginia that has been flooded several times in 

18 the past seven years with a 15-inch flood 

19 intrusion from a nearby small waterway, and her 

20 walls needed to be cut out and replaced. She's 

21 one of many who are experiencing adverse effects 

22 in that particular region in the Hampton Roads 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
194

1 area due to sea level rise and more serious 

2 storms. 

3 And the bottom line is for us to do all 

4 we can with your help to keep the oil and gas in 

5 the ground. Thank you so much for your 

6 consideration.

7 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, very much. 

8 MR. CANDLER: My name is Wilfred Candler, 

9 C-A-N-D-L-E-R, and I represent the Greater 

10 Annapolis Environmental Action. We know that's 

11 our name, we adopted it last week.

12 Now I must talk, please. I challenge the 

13 EPA in reporting on carbon pollution from new 

14 power plants to say what it believes the safe 

15 level of atmospheric carbon dioxide to be. 

16 That's my main point to you and I'll come back to 

17 it. 

18 First, the good news. We are not short 

19 of energy. Climate forcing is positive, meaning 

20 that the Earth receives slightly more radiant 

21 energy than it emits into space. 

22 Some bad news, this imbalance causes 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
195

1 Earth to become slightly warmer year after year. 

2 Causation, the imbalance is caused by our 

3 use of fossil fuels, coal, natural gas, and oil, 

4 that add carbon dioxide to the atmosphere, thus 

5 blocking some of the infrared radiation that 

6 would otherwise send energy into space. This 

7 property of gaseous carbon dioxide has been known 

8 to physics since 1859, when it was discovered by 

9 John Tyndall. 

10 Our use of fossil fuels adds about two 

11 parts per million to the carbon dioxide in the 

12 atmosphere each year. Currently we are at 400 

13 parts per million. 

14 For 800,000 years, prior to the use of 

15 fossil fuels, atmospheric CO2 has never been 

16 above 300 parts per million, as shown in the ice 

17 core data which I handed out to you. We have had 

18 800,000 thousand years of experience with 

19 atmospheric carbon dioxide at or below 300 parts 

20 per million. 

21 If you'll look at your diagram, I'd 

22 appreciate that. The red line is carbon dioxide 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
196

1 and it goes up to 300 parts per million. Except 

2 for on the extreme right where we have now got it 

3 up to 400 parts per million. I'm sure -- I 

4 trust, I assure you're very familiar with this 

5 graph, and it only shows 400,000 years, but 

6 they've got the ice core data now back to 800,000 

7 years, which is a long time.

8 Currently we are at 400 parts per 

9 million. But there is no reason to believe this 

10 is safe. There is no reason to believe this is 

11 safe. 

12 I don't think you'll find a scientist who 

13 tells you what he thinks a safe level of CO2 will 

14 be. He'll tell you it's dangerous, but he won't 

15 tell you it's safe.

16 There are vicious fast and slow feedback 

17 mechanisms that add to the direct effect of 

18 carbon dioxide. For instance, as the Earth 

19 warms, there is less polar ice, which means that 

20 less of the incoming radiation from the sun is 

21 reflected back into space. Instead the open 

22 water absorbs the radiation, leading to faster 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
197

1 warming. The first ice-free day in the Arctic is 

2 expected to be in 2016. 

3 The most threatening feedback mechanism 

4 is from methane as arctic permafrost melts and 

5 decays anaerobically, and from methane currently 

6 sequestered in the form of methane clathrate, a 

7 combination of ice and methane, which may be 

8 released as atmospheric methane as the ice melts.

9 Depending on the strength of these 

10 feedback mechanisms the Earth might continue to 

11 warm even if we stopped using fossil fuels. 

12 These fast and slow feedbacks are so strong that 

13 it's estimated only 15 percent of the warming of 

14 added CO2 comes from the direct insulation effect 

15 discovered by John Tyndall. The other 85 percent 

16 comes from slow and fast feedbacks, some of which 

17 take decades and centuries to fully work 

18 themselves out.

19 In short, I challenge the EPA in 

20 reporting on carbon pollution from new power 

21 plants to say what it believes the safe level of 

22 carbon dioxide to be. Thank you.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
198

1 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you very much. I 

2 think we have time for one more this morning.

3 MR. CANDLER: I'll read it again if you'd 

4 like.

5 MR. WAYLAND: No, because we have to 

6 start back right at 1:00 and we do need a brief 

7 break. So, yes.

8 MR. WHITCOMBE: Hold up.

9 MR. WAYLAND: You need to use both mics.

10 MR. WHITCOMBE: I have to use both.

11 MR. WAYLAND: Yes.

12 One is for the recording the other one is 

13 for amplification.

14 MR. WHITCOMBE: Okay. Yes. Hello.

15 My name is Timothy Whitcombe. My last 

16 name is spelled W-H-I-T-C-O-M-B-E. I live in 

17 Hernico, Virginia, which is a suburb of Richmond. 

18 I'm a volunteer for the Sierra Club, but today 

19 I'm speaking for myself. I would like to thank 

20 you for the opportunity to speak today. 

21 In 2007 the Supreme Court of the United 

22 States ruled that greenhouse gases, including 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
199

1 carbon dioxide, fit well within the Clean Air 

2 Act's definition of air pollutant. Greenhouse 

3 gasses are causing global warming and climate 

4 change. From what I have read, virtually every 

5 atmospheric scientist in the world now believes 

6 that greenhouse gasses, including carbon dioxide 

7 are causing global warming and climate change. 

8 Global warming and climate change have 

9 already caused sea level rise. And this has been 

10 conclusively measured and proven. Sea level rise 

11 is already causing problems in flooding in 

12 Hampton Roads and in Norfolk, which is home to 

13 America's and the world's largest Naval base. 

14 Global warming and climate change have 

15 already caused ice cap melting in Greenland and 

16 in the Arctics. Atmospheric carbon dioxide 

17 levels have now risen to above 400 parts per 

18 million, and this has been measured and proven. 

19 This present level of carbon dioxide has not been 

20 seen in the atmosphere at any time in the last 

21 800,000 years.

22 Every year coal-fired power plants are 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
200

1 dumping over 2 billion tons of dangerous carbon 

2 pollution and other pollutants into the air. 

3 These proposed regulations, which will 

4 affect only new coal-fired power plants, will be 

5 just a small step towards dealing with the 

6 massive problem of carbon pollution. Far, far 

7 more needs to be done before all of us can 

8 breathe easier.

9 Richmond, Virginia has four coal-fired 

10 power plants within 25 miles of the city. There 

11 is a major coal-fired power plant in Chesterfield 

12 County, and there is also a coal-fired power 

13 plant on the campus of the University of 

14 Richmond. 

15 I've been told that Richmond has twice 

16 been named the Asthma Capital of the United 

17 States due to its high prevalence of asthma.

18 Last July I began a walking program to 

19 help me lose weight and also to improve my 

20 health. I was taking a brisk and enjoyable walk 

21 of about three miles each and every day. My 

22 walks reminded me of my days as a track and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
201

1 cross-country and road runner many years ago. 

2 Then in October, I got a bad cough. My 

3 doctor diagnosed me with bronchitis. My cough 

4 was so bad that I was forced to discontinue my 

5 walking program. I have not been walking since 

6 last October. 

7 I urge you to implement these rules on 

8 limiting carbon pollution from new power plants, 

9 which are just simply a first step in dealing 

10 with an enormous problem. Thank you, very much 

11 for your consideration.

12 MR. WAYLAND: Thank you, very much. 

13 MR. WHITCOMBE: Okay.

14 MR. WAYLAND: And thanks to everyone who 

15 took time and energy and effort to come this 

16 morning and address the hearing. I can assure 

17 you, your comments will be taken to heart as we 

18 work through the public comment process, towards 

19 issuing the final rule. A lot of you have spoken 

20 to the existing source plant rule that's due in 

21 June via the President's Climate Action Plan. 

22 Those comments, I assure you, will also be taken 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
202

1 into account as we work on that proposal and move 

2 towards June.

3 So, thank you very much for coming. 

4 Thank you very much for your comments, and at 

5 this time the hearing will be in recess until 

6 1:00. Thank you.

7 (Recess from 12:30 p.m. until 1:00 p.m.)

8 -- AFTERNOON SESSION --

9 1:00 p.m.

10 MS. ROSENBERG: All right. So, welcome. 

11 Good afternoon. Thank you for attending this 

12 public hearing. 

13 My name is Julie Rosenberg. I'm the 

14 chief of the state and local branch in EPA's 

15 Climate Protection Partnership Division. I'm 

16 chairing this afternoon's panel. With me are 

17 Christian Fellner with our Sector's Policies and 

18 Programs Division, and Jim Ketchan-Colwill, who 

19 is with our Office of Policy Analysis and Review.

20 So we're here today to listen to your 

21 comments on EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

22 standard for new power plants. EPA published the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
203

1 proposed standards in the Federal Register on 

2 January 8th of 2014. These comments a step under 

3 the Clean Air Act would, for the first time, set 

4 national limits on the amount of carbon pollution 

5 power plants built in the future can emit.

6 EPA is proposing to set an emissions 

7 standard, 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide per 

8 megawatt hour on a gross output basis for new 

9 fossil-fired utility boilers and for integrated 

10 gasification combined cycle units.

11 EPA is also proposing standards for 

12 natural gas-fired combustion turbines. Those 

13 proposed standards are 1,000 pounds of CO2 per 

14 megawatt hour for large combustion units, and 

15 1,100 pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour for small 

16 combustion turbine units.

17 The Agency's proposal does not apply to 

18 existing units. EPA's proposed standard reflects 

19 the ongoing trend in the power sector to build 

20 cleaner, lower emitting power plants. The 

21 proposal is flexible and would help minimize 

22 carbon pollution through the deployment of the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
204

1 same types of modern technologies that power 

2 companies are already using to build the next 

3 generation of power plants.

4 EPA's proposal would ensure that this 

5 progress towards a cleaner, safer, and more 

6 modern power sector continues. Today we're 

7 accepting oral comments on all aspects of our 

8 proposal and we'll prepare a written transcript 

9 of the hearing. The transcript will be available 

10 as part of the official record for this rule and 

11 placed in the regulatory docket.

12 We're also accepting written comments on 

13 the proposal until March 10th, 2014, at the 

14 registration area in the lobby. There are 

15 handouts with detailed information outlining how 

16 to submit written comments by mail, fax, or 

17 electronically.

18 EPA will consider your comments as we 

19 move forward to complete a final rule. Written 

20 statements and supporting information submitted 

21 during the comment period will be considered with 

22 the same weight as any oral comments and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
205

1 supporting information presented today.

2 Let me describe the logistics for today's 

3 hearing. I will call scheduled speakers to the 

4 table in pairs. When it's your turn to speak 

5 please state your name and your affiliation 

6 before you begin your testimony. It would help 

7 our court reporter if you spell out your name.

8 In order to be fair to everyone, we will 

9 limit your testimony to five minutes each and ask 

10 that everyone remain at the table until both 

11 speakers in the pair have finished. After you 

12 finish your testimony then we, members of the 

13 panel, might ask you a few clarifying questions. 

14 If you want to provide a copy of your testimony 

15 you can give a copy to the registration desk in 

16 the lobby, or you submit them to the docket the 

17 way I mentioned earlier. 

18 We have a timekeeping system consisting 

19 of green, yellow, and red lights to help you keep 

20 track of your five minutes to speak. And when 

21 you begin speaking, the green light will come on, 

22 the yellow light will signal that you have one 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
206

1 minute left to speak and the red light indicates 

2 that you have passed five minutes and I will ask 

3 you to please complete your testimony. 

4 Today's hearing started at 9:00 and is 

5 going to be running until 8:00 p.m. or later if 

6 necessary, depending on the number of speakers. 

7 We're taking a break from 5:00 to 6:00 for 

8 dinner. If you've already registered to speak 

9 we've tried to accommodate requests for specific 

10 time slots. 

11 We ask your patience as we proceed 

12 through the list of speakers. We may need to 

13 make some adjustments. 

14 If any questions arise throughout the 

15 day, please see someone at the registration table 

16 for assistance. We also have assistants here in 

17 the room, so thank you for participating and we 

18 can get started.

19 So I'm calling up the first two speakers 

20 are Shahara Huzano. Forgive me if I mispronounce 

21 your name. Come on up. And Mark Sheridan. No 

22 Mark Sheridan? Okay. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
207

1 So you can go ahead and have a seat. 

2 State your name and you can spell it for our 

3 record.

4 MS. HUAZANO: Good afternoon. My name is 

5 Sahara --

6 (Discussion off the record.)

7 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Go ahead.

8 MS. HUAZANO: Good afternoon, my name is 

9 Sahara, S-A-H-A-R-A, and I'm a citizen from rural 

10 California.

11 I wanted to speak today with the EPA 

12 first ever carbon pollution standard for new 

13 power plants and how this will benefit the 

14 American people.

15 The science and data before us, 

16 inconclusive. Scientists tell us that climate 

17 change is real. It is happening and it's 

18 present. Some very real threats to our health 

19 and societal wellbeing fueled by carbon pollution 

20 doctors and nurses tell us that as the 

21 temperature rises, so will the instances of smog 

22 inducive asthma and respiratory illnesses. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
208

1 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Excuse me. Please 

2 speak right into the microphone so everyone can 

3 hear you. 

4 MS. HUAZANO: Oh, sorry. As a citizen 

5 who grew up in an environmental justice community 

6 in rural California, I can tell you that we need 

7 the carbon standard to be strong and efficient to 

8 protect the health of my mother, my father, and 

9 my neighbors. 

10 I see firsthand the detrimental health 

11 effects that carbon pollution and other dangerous 

12 pollutants from coal-fired power plants pose to 

13 communities. Tens of thousands of people from 

14 Virginia to California, to right here in D.C. 

15 suffer from the real and sometimes fatal 

16 consequences of power plants, not bearing 

17 responsibility to the pollution they spew out.

18 This not only devastates families, but it 

19 also increases the burden through our already 

20 strapped health service programs. 

21 In closing, I want to thank EPA for their 

22 efforts to protect public health, protect our 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
209

1 planet, and spur 21st Century innovation and 

2 modernization through energy fleet. I urge EPA 

3 to move forward quickly with this critically 

4 important standard. Thank you.

5 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Any 

6 questions? 

7 (No response.) 

8 MS. ROSENBERG: Where in California are 

9 you from? I didn't get --

10 MS. HUAZANO: Southern California.

11 MS. ROSENBERG: Oh, southern California. 

12 Okay. 

13 MS. HUAZANO: Yes.

14 MS. ROSENBERG: I thought you mentioned a 

15 town I didn't catch. Okay. Thank you.

16 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thanks for 

17 appearing.

18 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. The next panel is

19 Molly Simon and Andy Ludwig.

20 MS. SIMON: Hello. Thank you for holding 

21 this public --

22 MS. ROSENBERG: Can you state your name 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
210

1 for the court reporter. 

2 MS. SIMON: Oh, sorry. My name is Molly 

3 Simon. 

4 Hello. Thank you for holding this public 

5 hearing. My name is Molly Simon, and I am an 

6 intern at the National Wildlife Federation, a 

7 concerned citizen, and a strong supporter of 

8 carbon regulations for power plants. 

9 Last year I went on a faith-based mission 

10 trip to Costa Rica to work on climate change 

11 issues. I had studied climate change extensively 

12 at Villanova University, and I felt confident 

13 that I had sound understanding of the issues. 

14 But when I arrived in Costa Rica my eyes were 

15 opened.

16 I heard stories from people who have been 

17 forced to relocate due to their homes being taken 

18 over by rising sea levels. I also got to see 

19 firsthand how changing climate, rising sea 

20 levels, and more extreme weather were affecting 

21 the sea turtle populations who use the beaches to 

22 lay their eggs. It was truly moving to put a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
211

1 face on these climate issues.

2 Not soon after I returned home Hurricane 

3 Sandy hit the east coast. And suddenly climate 

4 change wasn't only affecting the people and 

5 wildlife I had met in a developing country. It 

6 was affecting my friends and family. The New 

7 Jersey beaches where I had spent countless summer 

8 days going on ocean swims with my dad, fishing 

9 with my uncle, or relaxing with friends, were 

10 devastated. For days and weeks family members 

11 and friends were without power. 

12 As it began to get colder one of my 

13 friends from Long Island had her mother and 

14 brother, who were still without power well into 

15 November, come live with her in her college 

16 apartment. It was startling to see climate 

17 change happening in front of me. Not just in 

18 books and in the classroom, but to the people I 

19 knew.

20 Extreme weather brought on by climate 

21 change is being seen across the United States. 

22 The people of California are experiencing 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
212

1 powerful droughts that are only predicted to 

2 worsen. 

3 Out west they are also experiencing more 

4 frequent and intense forest fires. And those 

5 living on the eastern seaboard are at risk for 

6 more powerful hurricanes.

7 There are people across America and 

8 around the world who are constantly threatened by 

9 changing climate. It's significantly altering 

10 their lives and impacting them in a negative way. 

11 I strongly believe that climate change is the 

12 greatest challenge facing us today. If we don't 

13 act on climate, we are putting future 

14 generations, the American economy, and our lives 

15 at risk. 

16 Carbon emissions from power plants are 

17 one of the most significant contributors to 

18 climate change, and I believe that it's 

19 imperative that the EPA moves forward with the 

20 proposed limits to carbon -- power plant carbon 

21 emissions. 

22 As a young adult, recent graduate, and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
213

1 person of Catholic faith, I urge the EPA to take 

2 a strong stand on carbon regulations for power 

3 plants and I applaud the EPA for taking these 

4 critical first steps. 

5 Thanks, very much, for your time.

6 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Do you have 

7 any questions?

8 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: I do not.

9 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Thank you. 

10 MR. LUDWIG: I was told I'd be able to 

11 connect this to a projector so I apologize to 

12 anybody who can't see this. But hopefully you 

13 will -- is it okay if I put this here?

14 MS. SIMON: Oh, yeah. Go for it. 

15 MR. LUDWIG: Hopefully you all can see 

16 that and if anybody wants to move you're welcome 

17 to.

18 Well, thank you for your time. My name 

19 is Andy Ludwig, L-U-D-W-I-G. 

20 Energy and the environment are my 

21 passions, and I believe I'm uniquely qualified to 

22 discuss the proposed legislation as I've worked 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
214

1 on both sides of the issue.

2 In my previous role, I helped utilities 

3 like PEPCO procure their electricity for the 

4 upcoming year, and these are usually auctions 

5 where the lowest price power plants win the bid. 

6 In some cases the format was an RFP for a new 

7 generation to be built. So there is going to be 

8 a 30-plus year effect based on the result.

9 When my company scrutinized the RFP 

10 evaluation rules for a utility in Oregon, we 

11 discovered that the playing field was tilted 

12 heavily in favor of large coal plants. And this 

13 is because state public service commissions, like 

14 the DCPSC, write rules where the final cost to 

15 rate payers is paramount. 

16 And this was in super-green Oregon. You 

17 know, the birthplace of granola and hippies. Or 

18 so Wikipedia told me. 

19 Anyway, even in Oregon dirty coal plants 

20 have the advantage as things stand. 

21 Currently I manage energy efficiency 

22 projects at a university here in D.C. Some 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
215

1 people have been saying that regulating power 

2 plants isn't necessary as the market will drive 

3 out old inefficient plants and the demand will 

4 decline as every company and organization are 

5 starting to realize that energy efficiency is the 

6 best investment they can make. And it really is.

7 Well, we're attacking inefficiencies on 

8 all fronts, even with some government support, 

9 and it's not going to be enough. We have 

10 invested millions of dollars over the past few 

11 years and have only made a three percent 

12 reduction in our emissions and we're ahead of the 

13 curve.

14 In an optimistic scenario, we'll reduce 

15 our greenhouse gas emissions 30 percent by 2025, 

16 but all of those reductions will be eaten up by 

17 the new buildings that we're adding. And we're 

18 not alone. Growth is king.

19 Simply put, the market won't put dirty 

20 coal out of business. Only you can. 

21 You already know the predictions from the 

22 vast majority of scientific community about the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
216

1 worst impacts. Extreme heat waves, drought, 

2 extreme weather events. But let me add a couple 

3 that are personal to me.

4 I have a daughter on the way. If she 

5 lives to be 85, she'll be around in 2100, the 

6 year most climate predictions stop and also when 

7 they're the scariest. A year without a winter, 

8 like last year, might become common. 

9 Sea level rise might bring the Potomac up 

10 on to Constitution Avenue. I hope you all have a 

11 canoe for your commute. 

12 But that's way into the future so let me 

13 talk about now. This is my little puppy. She 

14 loves to play usually, but she now has Lyme 

15 disease and is unable to run around on some days 

16 due to the joint pain. It's already been 

17 observed that the changing climate is spreading 

18 the reach of mosquitoes and ticks where they can 

19 impact more pets and people.

20 And from a global perspective, I spent 

21 Christmas and New Years in China a few years ago. 

22 Even then the smog was palpable. One of the main 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
217

1 things my friends and I will remember is all of 

2 the locals hacking up phlegm and spitting on the 

3 street. Men, women, children, (spitting sound) 

4 everywhere. 

5 China is in that situation because of 

6 coal plants. Please do not allow us to enable 

7 China to continue to do that. Better yet, let's 

8 join the rest of the international community in 

9 recognizing CO2 as a pollutant and do something 

10 about it, which we've begun the process for.

11 It's way too late to be a leader in this 

12 realm, since everyone has signed the Kyoto 

13 Protocol but us. But if we take a strong stand 

14 on this China will feel the pressure to follow 

15 suit, and that's when we'll make a difference 

16 globally.

17 Your actions after this hearing and 

18 fighting for what's right could improve the 

19 world. Please don't let this opportunity go up 

20 in smoke. After all, it's like buying insurance. 

21 Jim, do you buy car insurance? 

22 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: I do.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
218

1 MR. LUDWIG: You do. And Julie, do you 

2 have home insurance? 

3 MS. ROSENBERG: Yes. 

4 MR. LUDWIG: And Christian, what about 

5 you? Do you have health insurance? 

6 MR. FELLNER: Yes. 

7 MR. LUDWIG: Glad to hear it. Limiting 

8 pollution from coal plants is the most prudent 

9 path forward and is similar to something you've 

10 done before with car emissions. It's such a 

11 small price to pay to avoid these catastrophic 

12 consequences, so I, my daughter, and other cute 

13 little puppies will be very glad that you did.

14 Thank you.

15 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Questions? 

16 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: What kind of 

17 projects -- you mentioned you manage energy 

18 efficiency projects?

19 MR. LUDWIG: Correct.

20 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Just briefly, what 

21 type?

22 MR. LUDWIG: Changing lights to be more 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
219

1 efficient, boilers, chillers, and behavior change 

2 to get our students to compete to reduce their 

3 water and energy consumption.

4 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thank you.

5 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you.

6 MR. LUDWIG: Sure. 

7 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. The next panel is 

8 Jessica Eckdish and Susan Stillman. 

9 MS. STILLMAN: Did I hear Stillman? 

10 MS. ROSENBERT: Yes.

11 MS. STILLMAN: First or second up? First 

12 or second?

13 MS. STILLMAN: Second.

14 MS. ROSENBERG: Second up. 

15 MS. ECKDISH: Okay. Can you hear me 

16 okay?

17 MS. ROSENBERG: Not well.

18 MS. ECKDISH: Is that better? 

19 MS. ROSENBERG: That's better.

20 MS. ECKDISH: Okay. Great. Good 

21 afternoon. My name is Jessica Eckdish and I am 

22 speaking today as a representative of the Sierra 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
220

1 Club as well as a private citizen. 

2 I appreciate the opportunity to speak 

3 with you today about your effort to tackle carbon

4 pollution from power plants, and what I consider 

5 to be the biggest challenge of our time, the 

6 urgent need for action on climate change.

7 There is overwhelming consensus within 

8 the scientific community that in order to avoid 

9 catastrophic and irreversible damage to our 

10 planet, we need to limit the increase in average 

11 global temperature to two degrees Celsius. 

12 So far we've already raised this 

13 temperature almost one degree Celsius. 

14 At this point, in order to stay below a 

15 two degree increase scientists estimate that 

16 humans can pour roughly 565 more gigatons of 

17 carbon dioxide into the atmosphere by 2050. The 

18 scary fact is that globally we have five times 

19 that number in proven coal, oil, and gas 

20 reserves.

21 In short, the fossil fuel we're currently 

22 planning to burn is five times higher than what 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
221

1 scientists think is safe. 

2 Last year the World Bank said that we are 

3 currently on track to warm the planet by four 

4 degrees this century. After only one degree of 

5 temperature increase, we've already seen sea 

6 levels rise, extreme storms like Hurricane Sandy 

7 devastate communities, and catastrophic droughts, 

8 floods, and wild fires all across the country. 

9 I don't like thinking about what would 

10 happen if the Earth warmed by four degrees or 

11 even more. And we know who and what is to blame 

12 for these changes. According to the latest 

13 report from the IPCC, there is now 95 percent 

14 certainty that humans are responsible for the 

15 warming of the last 50 years or so. And the 

16 strong consensus in the scientific community 

17 attributes a large part of this to fossil fuel 

18 consuming power plants that dump greenhouse 

19 gasses into the atmosphere every day.

20 Fossil fueled power plants are the single 

21 largest source of climate pollution in the United 

22 States and currently do not have to meet any 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
222

1 national carbon limits. Power plants have been 

2 free to pollute our air and water, poison nearby 

3 communities, and pose a catastrophic threat to 

4 our climate.

5 For years the U.S. has lagged behind 

6 other countries and failed to step up as a leader 

7 in the climate fight. But thankfully I think I'm 

8 finally seeing leadership. The EPA's effort to 

9 clean up dirty dangerous power plants is a 

10 critical step in the right direction. One that 

11 has the potential to dramatically cut our carbon 

12 pollution, protect families, and transition our 

13 energy sector towards cleaner, renewable energy 

14 sources.

15 Clean energy is no longer some far-off 

16 goal. It is here now. Our carbon policy should 

17 reflect the world that we want to live in; one 

18 where we power our homes and cars with energy 

19 sources that don't poison our air and our 

20 climate, but support a thriving green economy. 

21 Thank you for this opportunity to 

22 testify. I strongly urge the EPA to move forward 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
223

1 with a strong and just standard for new power 

2 plants that reflects the future that I want to 

3 see. Thank you.

4 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Any 

5 questions? 

6 (No response.) 

7 MS. STILLMAN: My name is Susan Stillman. 

8 Can you hear me?

9 MS. ROSENBERG: Yes.

10 MS. STILLMAN: Okay. My name is Susan 

11 Stillman. I live in Vienna, Virginia, and thank 

12 you for the opportunity to speak today. I have a 

13 little bit of a cold.

14 So many people think that our obligation 

15 in a democracy is done when we vote. I don't 

16 agree with that. We have to stand up and speak 

17 up about the things that we feel strongly about. 

18 And I care about the effects of climate change. 

19 And I'm not alone. Pulling data from 

20 Stanford University, from Yale, from the Sierra 

21 Club, says that greater than 50 percent of the 

22 population thinks that the government needs to do 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
224

1 more about mitigating climate change. And that's 

2 what I'm hoping you all will do with your rules. 

3 You've done a great job with the automobile 

4 rules. Let's move on to the stationary 

5 generation of electricity.

6 But even with this polling data I can 

7 only speak for myself and I'm seriously 

8 concerned. I've drawn the conclusion that we 

9 need to drastically reduce the emissions from 

10 coal and gas-fired power plants. 

11 Strong regulation that deals with gas 

12 emissions, greenhouse gas emissions, carbon 

13 pollution, particulate matter, and other 

14 pollutants will benefit all Americans. We'll all 

15 be better off. We've got to move off fossil fuel 

16 generation for electricity. Postponing the 

17 inevitable won't make it easier. It will just 

18 make it harder.

19 Power companies complain that moving to 

20 clean renewable energy is going to be expensive 

21 for their rate payers. I contend that the 

22 current cheap electricity isn't cheap at all. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
225

1 Just look at the weather disasters that we're 

2 paying for. Look to the cost of individuals in 

3 society for the storms, droughts, and wildfires. 

4 I think about the place where I went to 

5 the beach as a child, Virginia Beach. It's at 

6 serious risk of sea level rise due to climate 

7 change. I think about where I go now, Cape Cod, 

8 which is also at risk to sea level rise from 

9 climate change. 

10 Add this to the potential devastating 

11 storms cause for these coastal communities, and 

12 you have every reason to act.

13 Consider the health harms caused by 

14 burning coal. Richmond, Virginia is one of the 

15 top asthma capitals in the Nation for the last 

16 two or three years. Just recently there was an 

17 article in the New York Times about how expensive 

18 asthma medications have become. So you add the 

19 growing rate of asthma to the added expense, and 

20 we're talking about cheap electricity not being 

21 so cheap anymore.

22 I live in the Commonwealth of Virginia 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
226

1 where our largest utility fights clean renewable 

2 energy and energy efficiency. They don't install 

3 wind. They don't install solar and they fight 

4 energy efficiency as I said. They're nowhere 

5 near achieving their own energy efficiency goals. 

6 They're way behind. 

7 I am hoping that the rules that you all 

8 make will be a nudge that will seriously get them 

9 moving in the right direction.

10 I think you heard in earlier testimony 

11 that said that the integrative resource plan for 

12 Dominion shows them growing their carbon by 37 

13 percent over the next 15 years. That's totally 

14 the wrong direction to be headed.

15 So I envision a day when we no longer 

16 blow up mountains and contaminate the waters in 

17 Appalachia, to mine coal for burning in power 

18 plants. I see a day when southwest Virginia is a 

19 manufacturing area for the components that go 

20 into wind turbines. We need to diversify that 

21 economy, not keep it the way it has been. And 

22 there was a young man here from a coal community 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
227

1 earlier that talked about that.

2 And I hope we can stop -- we can't give 

3 natural gas a buy on all this either. We need to 

4 look at what the extraction of natural gas is and 

5 what the -- I know you all are worried about CO2. 

6 But we have a methane problem, leakage, when we 

7 talk about fracking. And we're wasting our most 

8 precious and the absolute most necessary recourse 

9 that we have with -- resource that we have, with 

10 water through fracking, and risking our water 

11 resources.

12 I don't understand how that makes any 

13 sense. We need to grow clean jobs. They're more 

14 important than the existing jobs and the existing 

15 money that's behind pushing back on the 

16 regulations that you all are trying to write. 

17 And I really appreciate the work that you're 

18 doing. I commend you for it. Good luck with 

19 this. I know this is tough.

20 There was a good article in The Post this 

21 week about the challenges you all are up against. 

22 So, thank you very much.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
228

1 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Do we have 

2 questions? 

3 (No response.) 

4 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. So Sarah --

5 MS. BUCCI: Bucci.

6 MS. ROSENBERG: Bucci. I'm sorry. 

7 MS. BUCCI: It's like Gucci, it's just --

8 MS. ROSENBERG: Like Gucci. Yes, it's 

9 spelled like Gucci. And Mark Sheridan. 

10 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: As the speakers are 

11 getting settled, just say thank you to all the 

12 speakers who have spoken and those who will be 

13 speaking for making the effort to come out today 

14 and bring us your views. And whether you're from 

15 nearby in Vienna, or far away in California.

16 MS. BUCCI: So my name is Sarah Bucci. 

17 And I'm the Director of Environment Virginia, 

18 which is a statewide citizen-funded environmental 

19 advocacy group and we represent 25,000 citizen 

20 members and supporters across the Commonwealth, 

21 and I'm very happy to be here today speaking on 

22 behalf of both myself and all of our members. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
229

1 And I'm sure you've heard a lot of Virginians 

2 here today as well. So I'm very proud of that 

3 fact.

4 And our mission is really about 

5 protecting and preserving special places that 

6 Virginians care about and core environmental 

7 values and one of those values is taking action 

8 to address climate change.

9 I'm here speaking on behalf of our 

10 members in Virginia because we are concerned 

11 about the impacts of climate change in Virginia, 

12 and they are hitting close to home. Extreme 

13 storms wreak havoc on public safety and 

14 infrastructure. And in fact our research has 

15 found that in recent years nine out of ten 

16 Virginians live in a city or county that has had 

17 a federally declared weather-related disaster.

18 And our coastlines are one of, you know, 

19 the most vulnerable to the risks of sea level 

20 rise from climate change.

21 And the Intergovernmental Panel on 

22 Climate Change confirms that the frequency and 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
230

1 severity of extreme weather events would continue 

2 to increase unless we dramatically cut the carbon 

3 pollution that is fueling climate change.

4 The largest single source of carbon 

5 pollution comes from America's power plants. And 

6 currently those power plants are able to spew an 

7 unrestricted amount of carbon pollution into the 

8 atmosphere. 

9 This past summer President Obama 

10 announced his Climate Action Plan and a 

11 cornerstone of that plan is these standards, 

12 directing the Environmental Protection Agency to 

13 set limits on the carbon pollution from both new 

14 and existing power plants. And we're here today 

15 in full support of those efforts, and of the 

16 proposed rule that was announced by the 

17 administrator this past fall.

18 We know that there is a better way than 

19 dirty polluting power plants. We can harness the 

20 power from the wind and the sun. We can build 

21 smarter and more efficiently and slash our 

22 dependence on the dirtiest sources of energy from 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
231

1 fossil fuels like coal and natural gas, and oil.

2 And these proposed standards are 

3 definitely a step in the right direction. 

4 Virginians and Americans support taking action 

5 and support the EPA taking action. You know, 

6 already Americans have submitted 4 million 

7 comments in support of EPA rules to limit carbon 

8 pollution from power plants, and over 130,000 of 

9 those come from Virginians. And as the President 

10 has said, we really have a moral obligation to 

11 future generations to tackle the threat of 

12 climate change, not just for ourselves, but for 

13 those who will come after us.

14 So on behalf of Environment Virginia I 

15 urge the EPA to finalize these proposed 

16 standards, to limit carbon pollution from new 

17 power plants. The Environmental Protection 

18 Agency and the Clean Air Act have a really strong 

19 track record of success when it comes to cutting 

20 pollution from power plants, when we look at 

21 standards to reduce mercury and air toxics and 

22 soot pollution. And so I see this as a 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
232

1 commonsense step and continuing down that road.

2 And it's necessary in order to protect 

3 future generations from the worst impacts of 

4 climate change. Thank you. 

5 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Questions? 

6 (No response.) 

7 MS. ROSENBERG: Go ahead.

8 MR. SHERIDAN: All right. My name is 

9 Mark Sheridan and I'm here to express support for 

10 the Environmental Protection Agency's proposal to 

11 set limits on carbon pollution from power plants.

12 I'm here as an intern at League of 

13 Conservation Voters, a student at Dartmouth 

14 College, but most importantly as a representative 

15 of today's youth. 

16 We are already experiencing the effects 

17 of a warming climate caused by human activities. 

18 And if we don't take action my generation will 

19 have to deal with even more extreme impacts. My 

20 generation understands the risks. Recent polling 

21 shows that over 80 percent of individuals under 

22 the age of 35 support the President's Climate 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
233

1 Action Plan, which includes the EPA's limits on 

2 carbon pollution from power plants as a main 

3 pillar. 

4 It is critical that we take aggressive 

5 action on climate change today in order to avoid 

6 more devastating impacts in the future. 

7 Despite repeated warnings from a strong 

8 consensus of scientists over the past several 

9 decades, congress has failed to take action. 

10 This failure to act is caused by members of 

11 congress who are more concerned about protecting 

12 the profits of polluters than protecting the 

13 health of communities and the environment.

14 Among members of congress in office today 

15 who obstruct efforts to address climate change, 

16 many of them are over the age of 60 or 70. They 

17 will not have to live with the most extreme 

18 impacts of climate change. But my generation 

19 will. Thankfully the EPA has proposed to take 

20 action on climate change. 

21 The EPA's plan is a sensible step in 

22 reducing carbon pollution from our Nation's 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
234

1 largest source of carbon emissions. As it 

2 currently stands, power plants, which account for 

3 40 percent of U.S. carbon emissions, are allowed 

4 to emit carbon pollution for free. The EPA's 

5 plan changes this and puts our country on a path 

6 to a more livable future.

7 The opponents of this plan will try to 

8 say that now is not the right time for limits on 

9 carbon pollution, but the status quo is not an 

10 option. Continuing to dump carbon pollution into 

11 the atmosphere with no limits will lead to 

12 climate disaster. 

13 In the interest of my generation and 

14 future generations we must act now to address 

15 climate change. The EPA's plan to reduce carbon 

16 pollution from power plants is a bold step in 

17 addressing climate change, and I am proud to 

18 support it, along with the overwhelming majority 

19 of people my age. Thank you.

20 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Questions?

21 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thank you.

22 MS. ROSENBERG: Is Michelle Passerelli in 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
235

1 the room? 

2 (No response.) 

3 MS. ROSENBERG: No. Okay. 

4 All right. Sarah Hagan and Elizabeth 

5 Outzs. Okay, Sarah, do you want to start?

6 MS. HAGAN: Hi, there. My name is Sarah 

7 Hagan. That's Sarah with an H, H-A-G-A-N. 

8 I'm an organizer with the Virginia 

9 Chapter of the Sierra Club, but I'm also a 

10 paddler, hiker, gardener, amateur bird watcher, 

11 and aspiring naturalist. 

12 I live in Fredericksburg, Virginia on the 

13 fall line of the Rappahannock River, the longest 

14 free-flowing river on the east coast. As rivers 

15 go, it's a relatively healthy one. But every day 

16 I see the effects of climate related disruption 

17 in my watershed.

18 Carbon pollution accounts for 80 percent 

19 of greenhouse gas emissions in the U.S. Forty 

20 percent of that comes from power plants. 

21 Greenhouse gasses have numerous effects, but I 

22 want to talk about rainfall and storm water 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
236

1 runoff today.

2 According to the EPA we've seen a five 

3 percent increase in the amount of precipitation 

4 in the United States in the last century. And in 

5 recent years much of our precipitation is coming 

6 from intense single-day storms, and greenhouse 

7 gasses are a major contributor to these changing 

8 patterns in rainfall.

9 With more land being developed, which 

10 leads to impervious surface area and more water 

11 than ever, the effects of climate disruption on 

12 the Rappahannock River watershed are becoming 

13 more and more apparent. 

14 The Rappahannock frequently looks like 

15 chocolate milk due to high sediment loads in the 

16 water. Dirt is picked up by storm water as it 

17 runs over land and is carried into our streams 

18 and creeks. During heavy rains, water travels at 

19 a high velocity through streambeds unaccustomed 

20 to the amount of water. The water cuts and 

21 gouges its way down stream destabilizing the 

22 stream bank loosening more sediment in the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
237

1 process. 

2 As the water slows, the sediment settles 

3 to the bottom of the stream or riverbed. Over 

4 time, we humans begin to take notice. 

5 In the last five years I have seen the 

6 shape of my river change as the sediment loads 

7 have increased, shifted, and settled. I have 

8 watched as a portion of river narrowed, 

9 channelized and adapted to this new threat. I 

10 have seen stream banks become compromised due to 

11 the increased amount of storm water they have to 

12 handle. And in turn I have seen the natural 

13 ecosystems failing. Grasses can't grow in dirty 

14 water where there is no sunlight. Fish lack 

15 habitat and food when grasses die. And in turn, 

16 water quality becomes impaired.

17 An increase in storm water runoff also 

18 means an increase in the amount of chemicals, 

19 toxins, and excess nutrients carried in the 

20 water. High levels of nitrogen phosphorous 

21 plague the Rappahannock. When it rains in the 

22 upper watershed, these nutrients are washed from 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
238

1 the fields and yards into the river. Once they 

2 make it to the lower basin, these plant boosting 

3 nutrients from fields and laws encourage growth 

4 in the water in the form of algae blooms. 

5 When algae dies and decomposes it sucks 

6 the oxygen out of the water creating dead zones. 

7 There is little to no oxygen in a dead zone so 

8 nothing can live there, no oysters, fish or 

9 crabs. 

10 This affects the water quality and it 

11 affects the lives of the watermen who depend on 

12 the river for their livelihood. 

13 The dead zone in the Rappahannock is 

14 seven times larger than any of the other dead

15 zones in Virginia's other rivers combined. 

16 I ask the EPA to limit the amount of 

17 carbon emissions from new power plants built in 

18 the United States. Power plants are the leading 

19 contributor of the number one greenhouse gas in 

20 the country, carbon dioxide. With fewer carbon 

21 emissions we'll see fewer of the extreme weather 

22 events that contribute to the problems of storm

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
239

1 water runoff in the Rappahannock River watershed. 

2 The time to act is now. So let's not 

3 wait until it's too late. Thank you.

4 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. 

5 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thank you.

6 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Questions? 

7 (No response.) 

8 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. 

9 MS. OUZTS: Hi. Thanks for the 

10 opportunity to speak to you today. My name is 

11 Elizabeth Ouzts. 

12 MS. ROSENBERG: Ouzts, sorry.

13 MS. OUZTS: O-U-Z-T-S. That's okay. 

14 It's a common mistake. 

15 And I am the Director of Environment 

16 North Carolina, here from Raleigh, North 

17 Carolina. 

18 We are a statewide citizen based 

19 environmental advocacy group with thousands of 

20 members from Asheville to Wilmington.

21 When it comes to global warming, North 

22 Carolina has a lot at stake. Sea levels are 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
240

1 rising on our coasts three times more quickly 

2 than they are across the globe. The Outer Banks 

3 and the rest of our Barrier Islands are some of 

4 our most prized landscapes. But without strong 

5 action to cut carbon pollution and stem the worst 

6 effects of global warming, much of these islands 

7 will be under water.

8 Already public officials are struggling 

9 with difficult choices about how to protect 

10 quality of life for those on the coast in the 

11 face of flooded homes and highways which are, you 

12 know, certainly in part due to rising seas and 

13 increased frequency and intensity of storms. 

14 It's not just our coastal communities at 

15 risk. In 2012, North Carolina experienced a 

16 total of 40 broken heat records, 13 broken 

17 precipitation records and 19 large wildfires all 

18 across the state. High smog days could double in 

19 cities like Raleigh and Asheville in a warming 

20 world threatening children, the elderly, those 

21 with asthma and even normal healthy adults. 

22 While the consequences of not addressing 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
241

1 the most profound environmental crisis of our day 

2 are tremendous for our state, so too are the 

3 benefits of cutting carbon pollution and 

4 transitioning to clean renewable energy. 

5 We are already poised as leaders in the 

6 clean energy future. North Carolina was second 

7 only to California last year in new solar power 

8 added. And across the state more than 18,000 

9 work in a range of clean energy jobs, which is up 

10 more than 20 percent from the previous year.

11 And we have the potential to add even 

12 more. North Carolina has more potential for 

13 offshore wind than any other state on the 

14 Atlantic coast. 

15 Coal-fired power plants, as you know, are 

16 the single largest source of carbon pollution and 

17 North Carolina has some of the dirtiest in the 

18 country. And so we urge you to craft the 

19 strongest possible rule to limit carbon pollution 

20 from any new plants built in this country. And 

21 we look forward to rules to clean up carbon 

22 pollution from our existing coal plants as well.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
242

1 Finally, I want to say that in the wake 

2 of a massive spill in North Carolina from a toxic 

3 coal ash pond with enough ash and water to fill 

4 40 Olympic swimming pools, we are reminded that 

5 coal power doesn't just fuel global warming. 

6 Indeed it poses multiple threats to our 

7 environment and our public safety. 

8 And so we urge the Obama Administration 

9 to not only move forward with these rules and 

10 with rules to curb pollution from new power 

11 plants, but to lead the charge to a transition to 

12 a clean fossil-fuel-free energy future.

13 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Do you have 

14 questions? 

15 (No response.) 

16 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thanks for making 

17 the trip.

18 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay.

19 Sarah Frost and Madison -- I can't read 

20 this. Mathiasew? 

21 Sarah? 

22 MS. FROST: Yes, hi. Thanks so much for 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
243

1 having us.

2 I'm Sarah Frost. I'm an Assistant 

3 National Field Director with Environment America. 

4 We are a federation of 29 state-based groups like 

5 Environment North Carolina and Environment 

6 Virginia, working for environmental solutions.

7 So I see myself as a product of the 

8 environmental education movement. I grew up 

9 reducing, reusing, and recycling, learning about 

10 the Rain Forrest, celebrating Earth Day, and I 

11 also grew up, like many Americans, believing that 

12 as a country we like to do the right thing even 

13 when it's hard or inconvenient.

14 It's so easy, though, in this day and 

15 age, to forget that we are inherently part of the 

16 natural matrix; that when we build and design 

17 fuel and dispose of the trappings of modern 

18 American life, we too often let the bottom line 

19 and the status quo dictate our choices instead of 

20 what is right.

21 The extreme weather that we're starting 

22 to experience from droughts and wildfires, storms 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
244

1 and floods, fueled by global climate change, the 

2 weather that science is telling us will only get 

3 worse, it prompts us to remember that ultimately 

4 there is no way to escape the consequences of our 

5 actions.

6 And that's why as I stood on the Capitol 

7 lawn on January 21st of last year, I was thrilled 

8 to hear our President make a commitment to act on 

9 climate, not only four ourselves but for all 

10 prosperity.

11 In order to meet our highest potential as 

12 a nation, to keep our water, our land, and our 

13 air clean, and our communities safe from harm, we 

14 need to bypass further development of fossil 

15 fuels like coal, oil and gas, and head straight 

16 towards the clean, green, renewable energy future 

17 that so many Americans support. 

18 And we know there is enough sun and wind 

19 to power this country many times over; that the 

20 energy we produce from these sources has grown 

21 tremendously over the past few years, and that 

22 we've really barely scratched the surface on its 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
245

1 potential.

2 Because we can meet our energy needs by 

3 tapping the power of clean renewables and by 

4 reducing the tremendous amount of energy that we 

5 waste, dirty energy makes no sense. In the 21st 

6 Century keeping the lights on shouldn't poison 

7 our environment and our health and it doesn't 

8 have to.

9 So the President is now looking to make 

10 good on his vision of a greener America through 

11 his Climate Action Plan, which lays out 

12 unprecedented action to build the foundation for 

13 a clean energy economy, tackle the issue of 

14 climate change and protect our environment.

15 I support limiting the damage that can be 

16 done by coal-fired power plants by capping their 

17 carbon emissions. It's a critical first step in 

18 preventing catastrophic impacts from climate 

19 change and it's the right thing to do. Thank 

20 you. 

21 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you.

22 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thank you.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
246

1 MS. MATHIASEN: My name is Madison 

2 Mathiasen and I am intern with Environment 

3 America. 

4 MS. ROSENBERG: It's an N. Okay. 

5 MS. MATHIASEN: The one-year anniversary 

6 of the super storm that tore apart my New Jersey 

7 hometown recently passed. Hurricane Sandy 

8 devastated homes and businesses around my town 

9 and all over the state. Power outages left 

10 people cold and vulnerable and the sea that rose 

11 and covered shore towns left destruction in its 

12 path as well as more than 100 people dead.

13 The super storm left billions of dollars'

14 worth of damage rivaling even Hurricane Katrina. 

15 These storms are the planet's attempt to send us 

16 a message. They will not stop. 

17 As you've seen, even this winter, 

18 unprecedented snowfall in southern states has 

19 been leaving parts of the country completely 

20 disabled. The weather patterns are going to 

21 continue to get more and more extreme and this is 

22 greatly a result of global warming. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
247

1 The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate 

2 Change has confirmed that the frequency and 

3 severity of extreme weather events like these 

4 will continue to increase unless we dramatically 

5 cut the carbon pollution fueling global warming.

6 Environment America's research and policy 

7 centers report America's dirtiest power plants, 

8 shows that power plants in America are the single 

9 largest source of carbon pollution, and that only 

10 a handful of the dirtiest plants make up a huge 

11 portion of our emissions.

12 For example, the 50 dirtiest U.S. plants 

13 emit more carbon than all but six other 

14 countries. This is absurd. Why in America do we 

15 feel so entitled to pollute the air that we as a 

16 global society depend on to survive and prosper? 

17 I have already made the decision that 

18 this planet is not a place to raise a child. 

19 Because of all the pollution, environmental 

20 degradation and health risks resulting from poor 

21 regulation and corrupt loopholes and laws, my 

22 personal opportunity to start a family has been 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
248

1 stolen from me. 

2 I feel betrayed by the leaders of my 

3 country. It's not right that this planet has 

4 been so destroyed from pollution and dirty energy 

5 initiatives that I now fear for my safety in the 

6 coming years. I feel sadness for the future of 

7 our nation and for the children that will have to 

8 deal with the repercussions of climate change 

9 that we were too busy contributing to, to fix.

10 I feel hopeless and powerless, as if no 

11 one is listening to the pleas of the people. 

12 Today is an opportunity to change that. We are 

13 joined here today to urge you to stop the carbon 

14 pollution that is so contributing to global 

15 warming. Americans are demanding action. 

16 We have already submitted 4 million 

17 comments in support of limiting carbon pollution 

18 from power plants. Hundreds of elected 

19 officials, business leaders, and organizations 

20 have voiced their support in reigning in the 

21 biggest polluters. 

22 We know there is a better way than dirty 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
249

1 power plants. Surveys from across the country 

2 show that Americans are aware of the impacts and 

3 effects of global warming, and that we are ready 

4 and willing to make the switch to clean energy.

5 I and my friends are doing the things 

6 that we can to cut our impact on the planet, 

7 driving less, using efficient light bulbs, 

8 limiting our meat intake, and taking time out of 

9 our days to urge leaders like you to act. But if 

10 we're going to tackle the problem, we need a 

11 national commitment to cutting carbon pollution. 

12 We're relying on you to lead the way to help 

13 transition us to a cleaner future.

14 You have the power to take the necessary 

15 actions to cut pollution from the largest sources 

16 and make the biggest dent in the problem. Please 

17 act quickly to protect our lives in the future. 

18 The opposition from power companies and the coal 

19 industry who profit from pollution, along with 

20 their allies in congress are ready to fight us 

21 with their pockets full of dirty money that they 

22 earn from promoting pollution. That's why it's 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
250

1 absolutely critical that the state leaders join 

2 us in supporting President Obama's plan to tackle 

3 global warming by limiting carbon pollution from 

4 power plants.

5 While global warming's impacts will be 

6 felt by future generations, these massive 

7 hurricanes, thick smog clouds, and acid rain are 

8 effecting the wellbeing of our people right now. 

9 We can't ignore the message that these events are 

10 sending us. Failure to act is not just betrayal 

11 to future generations, but it is a sign of pure 

12 ignorance and duplicity.

13 Environment America calls on state 

14 leaders to join us in supporting limits on power 

15 plants, carbon solutions, and to not back down 

16 against wealthy opposition tempting you with 

17 promises of money. 

18 Further, we urge the EPA to move forward 

19 to finalize these carbon pollution standards for 

20 new power plants so that no new plants will be 

21 allowed to dump unlimited amounts of dangerous 

22 carbon pollution into the air. Without these 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
251

1 regulations, we're destined to continue rushing 

2 full force towards collapse. Not just as a 

3 country but as an entire global population. 

4 Thank you.

5 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. 

6 Okay. Harvey Fernbach and Kristen Cook.

7 MR. FERNBACH: Good afternoon. I'm 

8 Harvey Fernbach --

9 MS. ROSENBERG: You probably need to 

10 speak up or more directly into the microphone, 

11 maybe.

12 MR. FERNBACH: I'm Harvey Fernbach. I'm 

13 a physician. Glad to be here. I've been an 

14 admirer of the EPA for many, many years. We have 

15 something in common. I was in the medical school 

16 class of 1970 and you guys started practicing the 

17 environmental health also in 1970.

18 As you know, your patients, the American 

19 environment and climate, is getting sicker and 

20 sicker. The signs and symptoms are very clear. 

21 Global fever, cold chills, hot and dehydrating 

22 periods, polluted water and soil. The 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
252

1 atmospheric carbon now is sky high, and we have 

2 actually a pandemic all over the world.

3 As physicians we recommend treatments to 

4 patients. Sometimes they don't like the 

5 treatment, but we have to do what we think is 

6 best. We sometimes -- we a lot of times 

7 prescribe medicines that our pharmaceutical 

8 represent, who I don't see any more, don't like. 

9 We obviously have to tell people to cut down on 

10 their sugar, even though the confectionary 

11 industry would be appalled. 

12 Same thing with smoking. We clearly 

13 avoid what the tobacco industry says and tell the 

14 people what they want. Matter of fact, the 

15 tobacco industry, I'm around long enough to know, 

16 when they would lie to congress and the federal 

17 agencies about the dangers of smoking. You don't 

18 see smoking allowed signs anyplace anymore. And 

19 we take it for granted. You wouldn't see Jay 

20 Leno smoking a cigarette as opposed to Edward R. 

21 Murrow many years ago.

22 But, there is solid environmental 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
253

1 evidence now on the effect of carbon and how much 

2 on climate change. And Dr. EPA, please prescribe 

3 that power plants cut down all their smoking. We 

4 really can't tolerate it anymore. It's that 

5 critical. 

6 As an individual, we cannot do much. We 

7 cannot solve the problem. We're really very 

8 helpless. We cannot hide. We cannot run. We 

9 cannot close the windows and watch it on TV. 

10 Whether you're in the one percent, like the 

11 members of the panel here, or the 99 percent, 

12 whether we live on Park Avenue or in the park, we 

13 are all in this together.

14 Dr. EPA, we are in a desperate need for 

15 aggressive treatment if we are to have any chance 

16 to avoid a global hospice. 

17 This may seem like I'm Chicken Little 

18 crying, the sky is falling. But I have read and 

19 learned a lot and I am informed and not a 

20 hysterical science-based Chicken Little. For 

21 surely the sky is indeed falling right now. 

22 Thank you very much.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
254

1 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. 

2 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thank you.

3 MS. COOK: Hi. My name is Kristin Cook 

4 and I'm a mother of three and environmental 

5 activist. 

6 Let me start by saying that I am 

7 profoundly sad that we are even discussing carbon 

8 pollution standards for future coal plants or 

9 power plants, because I can't believe we're 

10 planning for a future with more coal-fired power 

11 plants. When will we learn?

12 Well for now, forget new standards for 

13 emissions and allow me to remind you the most 

14 recent environmental accidents, read disasters, 

15 from these coal-fired power plants, because I 

16 think that has to be taken into account.

17 October 31st of last year, an estimated 1 

18 billion liters of waste water leaked out of a 

19 containment pit at the old Obed Mountain Coal 

20 Mine some 30 kilometers east of Hinton, Canada. 

21 Mercury levels nine times higher than normal, 

22 levels of cancer-causing polycyclic -- I can't 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
255

1 pronounce it, sorry -- hydrocarbons four times 

2 the allowed standard for Canadian drinking water.

3 Those are the kinds of disturbing test 

4 results that Dr. James Talbot, Alberta's Chief 

5 Medical Officer of Health is seeing as he 

6 monitors a huge coal mine wastewater currently 

7 oozing down the Athabasca River. Sorry. Not 

8 Canadian.

9 Again, when will we learn? 

10 January, of course, 9th of this year, 

11 chemical spill ruins water supplies, sparks a 

12 state emergency in West Virginia. Thirty 

13 thousand Charlestown residents were under water 

14 restrictions when a chemical used to clean coal 

15 leaked into the Elk River, into their water 

16 supply. Residents couldn't shower, cook with it, 

17 and had to drink bottled water. When will we 

18 learn?

19 February 5th, oh my gosh, that was 

20 yesterday. An estimated 50,000 to 82,000 tons of 

21 coal ash and up to 27 million gallons of water

22 were released this last Sunday, I'm sorry, into 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
256

1 the Dan River in Northern North Carolina via 

2 broken pipe underneath a waste containment pond 

3 according to Duke Energy Corp. When will we ever 

4 learn?

5 Okay. Well, I'll get back to making a 

6 case for strong standards for our future power 

7 plants. But I feel that I really don't need to. 

8 It's all over your own website. It's nothing --

9 I cannot provide any information that I didn't 

10 get from you.

11 I'm sorry. It's all over your website, 

12 the dangers of carbon emissions, the health risks 

13 not only directed to human health, but to the 

14 heating up of our planet. Mercury poisoning from 

15 U.S. power plants alone causes everything from 

16 heart attacks to asthma to inhibiting cognitive 

17 development in children. 

18 As told, coal costs America 330 to 500 

19 billion per year. We need you to stay strong in 

20 your mission to drastically cut emissions from 

21 these pollution factories. What will be your 

22 legacy. Thank you.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
257

1 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Thanks. 

2 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thanks for coming.

3 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Paris Carr and 

4 Martha Ellen Wingfield.

5 Okay. Paris Carr?

6 MS. CARR: Hi. My name is Paris Carr and 

7 I support the EPA's new regulation for carbon 

8 emissions on new power plants as well as current 

9 power plants.

10 And I'd just like to say that as a Type-1 

11 diabetic since January of 1993, I learned that 

12 many doctors -- or no doctors -- actually, know 

13 what quite causes diabetes. 

14 However, it came to my attention after 

15 about ten years of having diabetes that 

16 environmental factors play a major role in 

17 potential causes for Type-1 diabetes. 

18 And they also -- the environment also 

19 really impacts your endocrine system, which 

20 pretty much controls your entire body. When the 

21 weather is too warm it is extremely difficult for 

22 me to maintain and regulate my blood sugar. And 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
258

1 this is because I tend to drink a lot more water 

2 and my blood sugar drops low.

3 So I always have to prepare for 

4 unseasonably warm weather, and it is quite 

5 annoying and troublesome. So, again, I'd just 

6 like to reiterate that the environment has 

7 tremendous impact among us diabetics, Type-1 and 

8 Type-2. Thank you.

9 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Do you have 

10 questions? 

11 (No response.) 

12 MS. WINGFIELD: Hi. I am Martha Ellen 

13 Wingfield, W-I-N-G-F-I-E-L-D. I am here as a 

14 private citizen, also as a lover of mountains. 

15 This particular picture is of the Sierra Nevada 

16 Mountains that I took while hiking through there 

17 the summer before last with my husband. I love 

18 the mountains. As John Muir said, "Going to the 

19 mountains is to go home."

20 The sense of peacefulness, the connection 

21 to the inexplicable, that is what I find in 

22 nature. It's kind of my church. I've hiked the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
259

1 remote Sierra's, some of the most pristine 

2 mountains that we still have left in the United 

3 States. The rugged San Jacinto of Southern 

4 California, the pristine Three Sisters of Oregon, 

5 and of course the ancient, ancient Appalachians. 

6 While these beautiful mountains all have 

7 significant ecological and geological 

8 differences, they do all have the same threat of 

9 climate change that is facing them.

10 From the east coast -- or sorry. From 

11 the west coast, with fires threatening the 

12 Pacific Crest Trail and the John Muir Trail, to 

13 species shifting on the east coast with higher 

14 temperatures making hardwood old-growth trees 

15 unable to survive. There's a myriad number of 

16 effects that are facing the mountains.

17 But I'm not just a backpacker. 

18 Unfortunately no one will pay me to do that. 

19 Clearly I'm also an environmentalist. But I'm 

20 also a high school science teacher. And most 

21 recently I've become a wife. And of course the 

22 first question that everybody asks you after you 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
260

1 get married is, when are you going to start 

2 having babies. Gets a little annoying. 

3 And honestly, I don't know what to say. 

4 I want to say I'm excited about creating life 

5 with the person that I love most. But knowing 

6 what we all know about climate change and what's 

7 happening to our planet because of us, I'm scared 

8 to bring a child into this world. While it's a 

9 beautiful world in so many ways, as we've heard 

10 today we're facing seemingly insurmountable 

11 problems. 

12 So that's why I applaud you all on 

13 proposing these standards. Please don't let the 

14 big industry bully you with threats of lost jobs. 

15 We are a very progressive, imaginative, smart 

16 society and we can overcome that. So that is not 

17 a good argument. We need to stop listening to 

18 that threat of joblessness.

19 So, I do urge you to adopt the most 

20 stringent standards possible, for both coal and 

21 natural gas power plants. Even though natural 

22 gas has been touted as clean, I think we all know 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
261

1 that it is very dirty. Reports have said that it 

2 is possibly even dirtier than coal when you look 

3 at the extraction all the way to the energy 

4 generation.

5 So, please, so that I'm not scared to 

6 have kids, so that other young women like me see 

7 hope for the future, please continue to set 

8 progressive standards. I do applaud what you've 

9 done and let's stop making it easy for dirty 

10 energy to thrive. Thank you.

11 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. 

12 James Conway and Mallon Moench.

13 MR. CONWAY: I wasn't really prepared to 

14 speak today.

15 MS. ROSENBERG: Oh, okay. 

16 MR. CONWAY: So I just want to listen.

17 MS. ROSENBERG: All right. 

18 MR. CONWAY: I mean basically --

19 MS. ROSENBERG: Are you James?

20 MR. CONWAY: Yes.

21 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Do we have another 

22 -- okay. Go ahead. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
262

1 So, Mallen?

2 MR. MOENCH: Mallen.

3 MS. ROSENBERG: Mallen.

4 MR. MOENCH: My name is Mallen Moench. I 

5 speak on behalf of Utah Physicians --

6 MS. ROSENBERG: Could you spell your last 

7 name just to make sure the reporter gets it 

8 right?

9 MR. MOENCH: Oh, M-O-E-N-C-H. 

10 MS. ROSENBERG: Moench. Okay.

11 MR. MOENCH: I speak on behalf of Utah 

12 Physicians for a Healthy Environment, a group of 

13 nearly 300 doctors that live in Utah.

14 Science shows that air pollution causes 

15 or exacerbates many of the illnesses that its 

16 members treat. Therefore, they feel their 

17 expertise should inform the debate over how 

18 society should approach air pollution.

19 Question: Who cares about air pollution? 

20 Answer: Everyone who understands its 

21 health effects.

22 Most of Utah's people live in the north, 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
263

1 along the Wasatch Front. Severe air pollution 

2 has held the towns along the front under siege 

3 for much of this winter. 

4 Two weeks ago there was a rally of 5,000 

5 people on the steps of the State Capitol 

6 demanding that the legislature address the public 

7 health crisis that this pollution is causing.

8 A poll taken by the Salt Lake Tribune 

9 shows that by a three to one margin Utah 

10 residents want tighter regulation of industrial 

11 polluters. Regarding the long-term drought 

12 gripping the western states, Lane Ingram, a 

13 professor of Earth Science at UC Berkley says we 

14 are on track for having the worst drought in 500 

15 years. 

16 Our written statement explains why this 

17 climate disruption is traceable to a warming of 

18 the Arctic greater than anything seen since 

19 before the last ice age. This is traceable to 

20 the sudden massive increase in the concentration 

21 of greenhouse gasses in the Earth's atmosphere.

22 The resulting disruption of the climate 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
264

1 of the American West is turning California, which 

2 once served as the Nation's grapevine, orchard, 

3 and garden, into a dust bowl before our eyes. 

4 Healthy ecosystems are the foundation of life and 

5 human welfare. They produce fresh water, food, 

6 and moderate climates.

7 The value of these services to the 

8 planet's inhabitants was recently estimated to be 

9 $33 trillion each year. By 2050, as much as a 

10 third of all land plants and animals will become 

11 extinct as a result of abrupt climate change. As 

12 ecosystems deteriorate, so will the public's 

13 health, which is inextricably tied to them.

14 Climate change intensifies the heat and 

15 drought that have long plagued the west. These 

16 are some of the consequences. 

17 Forest fire pollution. The forest fire 

18 season is two and one half months longer than it 

19 was just 25 years ago. More frequent and more 

20 intense fires produce particulates that can be 

21 ten times more toxic than industrial or vehicular 

22 pollution. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
265

1 Ozone. Along the Wasatch Front current 

2 ozone levels increase deaths by respiratory 

3 disease by about 25 percent from what they would 

4 otherwise be. The chemical reactions that create 

5 ozone are driven by heat. A hotter climate 

6 increases ground-level ozone. 

7 Particulate pollution. The range lands 

8 of the Great Basin are already water-stressed. 

9 Accelerating global warming could turn them to 

10 dust. Utah is downwind from Nevada. Nevada's 

11 soils contain millions of tons of erionite, a 

12 mineral similar to asbestos that causes the same 

13 type of lung disease.

14 Southern Nevada soils are laced with a 

15 dozen different radioactive isotopes, the residue 

16 of nuclear bomb tests conducted over a period of 

17 40 years. If fragile native vegetation dies and 

18 Nevada becomes a dust bowl, the prevailing west 

19 winds will distribute these unanchored soils and 

20 their poisonous contaminates across most of the 

21 state of Utah. 

22 Mercury, selenium, and other heavy metals 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
266

1 coming mostly from coal-fired power plants, 

2 saturate the bed of the Great Salt Lake. Heat 

3 and drought caused by greenhouse gasses threaten 

4 to dry up the lake. If this happens west winds 

5 will pick up these neurotoxins and spread them 

6 across the Wasatch Front's airshed. 

7 Increased airborne neurotoxins from 

8 destroyed rangeland, increased forest fires, and 

9 exposed lake beds would increase respiratory 

10 disease, throat, and esophageal cancer, and 

11 cognitively impair a substantial percentage of 

12 the 40,000 fetuses that are conceived in Utah 

13 each year.

14 The science is clear. Over the long term,

15 the American west is headed for intensified heat 

16 and drought sufficient to threaten both the 

17 viability of its ecosystems and the breathability 

18 of its air. This phenomenon is the greatest 

19 single threat to the health and wellbeing of 

20 Utah's children. We recognize that this calamity 

21 will only be averted through quick and effective 

22 government action and international cooperation. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
267

1 The new source emission standards that 

2 are proposed here by the EPA are a modest first 

3 step toward avoiding this calamity. 

4 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. 

5 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Question. 

6 Your statement about the Nevada soils has 

7 some references indicated in it. In other words, 

8 is there further information available beyond 

9 what you've suggested?

10 MR. MOENCH: Yes, I can provide some 

11 detailed data and studies that may address that 

12 issue if you would like. And I'll refer in more 

13 detail to this in my written statement.

14 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. 

15 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thank you.

16 So, are you James Conway? 

17 MR. GURNEY: My name is Donald Gurney, G18 U-R-N-E-Y. 

19 MS. ROSENBERG: 

20 MR. GURNEY: Okay. Hello. I live in 

21 Arlington, Virginia. I'm speaking on behalf of 

22 myself, but I'm also a member of the Sierra Club. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
268

1 I'm testifying support of the proposed 

2 EPA standards on carbon pollution for the new 

3 power plants. By way of background, I'm a 

4 retired Air Force officer and a defense 

5 contractor.

6 I'm also a Vietnam War and a Cold War 

7 veteran. In all, I've spent over 45 years 

8 committed to defending the United States from 

9 foreign enemies. Now I'm concerned that the 

10 carbon pollution driven climate change threatens 

11 the national security of the United States and 

12 the future quality of life for my two daughters 

13 and for the next generation.

14 I have over 40 years' experience as an 

15 intelligence analyst, therefore, I find it quite 

16 important that the intelligence community's 

17 National Intelligence Council has identified 

18 climate change as a significant national security 

19 issue. In fact the National Intelligence Council 

20 approves several unclassified reports assessing 

21 the impact of climate change to various countries 

22 throughout the world. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
269

1 Here are a few of the judgments from 

2 these assessments. By 2020, climate change will 

3 result in more water shortages, poor water 

4 quality, and more severe floods. These will 

5 likely result in higher unemployment, increased 

6 social tension, strains on infrastructure, and 

7 increased instability in key areas. 

8 By 2030, many countries are likely to 

9 face severe drought, deforestation, shifting 

10 agriculture patterns, mass migration, severe 

11 storms and coastal flooding. These problems are 

12 likely to increase threats to the global food 

13 production, as well as increase the risk of 

14 instability, state failure and increased regional 

15 tensions. 

16 And then the coastal regions are 

17 increasingly vulnerable to flooding, storm surge 

18 and sea level rise. 

19 While these intelligence estimates focus 

20 on foreign countries, we're already seeing that

21 some of these problems are developing here in the 

22 United States. Here in Virginia we are facing 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
270

1 the threat of sea level rise and coastal 

2 flooding. The Hampton Roads, Norfolk, and 

3 Virginia Beach area continues to experience the 

4 highest rates of sea level rise on the east 

5 coast. For the past several years this has meant 

6 local, state, and federal government 

7 organizations working with private citizens 

8 developing numerous plans and infrastructure 

9 projects to counteract these threats.

10 Just this year California is enduring a 

11 record drought. Last month Governor Brown 

12 declared a drought emergency and requested that 

13 Californians voluntarily cut their water 

14 consumption by 20 percent. Moreover in an 

15 unprecedented move the California Department of 

16 Water Resources stated that it will not send any 

17 additional water from state reservoir resources 

18 system to local agencies this spring.

19 According to news reports these measures 

20 will affect drinking water supplies for 25 

21 million Americans and irrigation for one million 

22 acres of farmland. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
271

1 Closer to home, my family has owned a 

2 small farm in Northern Virginia since the 1840s. 

3 In the last 10 years, because of increasing 

4 drought and the severity of these droughts, as 

5 well as some pressure from the corn seed provider 

6 that we use, we've had to install an expensive 

7 irrigation system. This proved to be a major 

8 asset since it's preserved our crops from drought 

9 several times since we put it in.

10 Severe weather is also disrupting life in 

11 the United States. Over the past few years in my 

12 Arlington neighborhood, I've experienced more 

13 severe storms which have knocked down more trees 

14 and caused more prolonged power outages than I 

15 have seen in the past 30 years. 

16 In 2010, my sister's life in Sherwood, 

17 Wisconsin was disrupted by an all-time record 

18 thunderstorm that dumped seven and a half inches 

19 of rain in just two hours on Shorewood. This 

20 totally overloaded the town's sewer system and 

21 resulted in water running four to five feet deep 

22 on the streets next to her house. The first 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
272

1 floor of my sister's house was flooded, as were 

2 all the units in her condo development. Besides 

3 having to make expensive repairs to her home, it 

4 took two years to resolve the damage claims with 

5 the insurance companies.

6 In conclusion, I firmly believe that 

7 strong carbon pollution standards on the new 

8 power plants are an essential step in trying to 

9 slow and mitigate climate change. I also believe 

10 that strong carbon pollution standards are needed 

11 for existing power plants and other major sources 

12 of carbon pollution. Thank you, very much.

13 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Okay. I 

14 think maybe after this next panel we'll take a 

15 break. Okay. Thank you.

16 Did you have any questions?

17 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: I would just like 

18 to ask if the doctor mentioned others who might 

19 want to submit his material, have the information 

20 they need to do that.

21 MS. ROSENBERG: Can leave it here or at 

22 the desk in front.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
273

1 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: In the future. 

2 MR. MOENCH: The EPA (off microphone). 

3 MS. ROSENBERG: Oh, great. 

4 MR. MOENCH: So I'll just follow those 

5 instructions.

6 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thank you very 

7 much.

8 MS. ROSENBERG: That's great. Thank you. 

9 Okay. Judy Koenick and Mark Shipley.

10 MS. KOENICK: I've been copying this over 

11 so it's a little bit more legible so I can try to 

12 read it without all the errors in it.

13 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Do you want to go 

14 ahead? Are you --

15 MS. KOENICK: Before I start it would be 

16 nice to know the next time you hold a hearing 

17 that you post signs outside all over the place 

18 telling us where it is and have people know where 

19 it is.

20 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay.

21 MS. KOENICK: And it would also be nice 

22 if your bathrooms were handicapped accessible. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
274

1 It is not.

2 MS. ROSENBERG: Good point. Thank you. 

3 All right. Can you start by stating your name, 

4 please? Go ahead and start.

5 MS. KOENICK: Okay. I tell people if you 

6 have money, I'll buy a hearing aid.

7 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay.

8 MS. KOENICK: My name is Judy Koenick. I 

9 live at 2714 Washington Avenue, Chevy Chase, 

10 Maryland, 20815. A week ago the conscious of 

11 this country died at age 94. While he was not 

12 the author, Woody Guthrie was, he made the song 

13 that challenged all America. Does anyone here 

14 know the name of the person or the name of the 

15 song? 

16 I noticed that Mr. Wayland has 

17 disappeared so he didn't have to give me the 

18 answer and be embarrassed by not telling me. 

19 How long have we had the Clean Air Act? 

20 1970, '77, 1994. Forty-four years ago. How long 

21 have we had the Clean Water Act? 1972, amended 

22 in '77 and '87. Forty-two years ago. Yet 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
275

1 neither EPA, Maryland, or Montgomery County have 

2 shown any interest in enforcement. 

3 I have met with all three, including Bob 

4 Perciasepe when he was head of MDE. In fact he 

5 didn't comply with the PIA request so I hauled 

6 him into court. 

7 Now he has refused and ignored my request 

8 to meet with him at EPA. Martin O'Malley, 

9 Maryland Governor, who wants to be POTUS with all 

10 the perks, but allowed PEPCO to butcher thousands 

11 of trees in Montgomery County and Prince George's 

12 County by cutting out the heart and soul of the 

13 trees. 

14 As head of Maryland, when it rains he has 

15 discharged tens of thousands of gallons of mud, 

16 silt, and animal feces into Rock Creek, less than 

17 a mile from the D.C. line. 

18 Last summer after I raised the issue the 

19 County removed at least eight large dump truck 

20 loads of mud, silt, and feces from their sediment 

21 pond in Rock Creek Stream Valley Unit No. 1. 

22 O'Malley refused to empty the state pond 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
276

1 now for almost six years. So the mud, silt, 

2 feces, continue to flow into Rock Creek, the 

3 Potomac, and the bay from the Meadowbrook

4 Stables. 

5 When it is dry, he violates the Clean Air 

6 Act with the fine particulate matter, dust, 

7 permeating the air we breathe with it so dense 

8 you cannot see behind it. 

9 Maryland National Park and Planning 

10 Commission, a state chartered governmental agency 

11 for almost 30 years, has been told to water 

12 sufficiently to prevent the dust from becoming 

13 airborne and has refused to do so.

14 EPA does nothing. Arrange a meeting with 

15 Bob Perciasepe and let's stop the environmental 

16 degradation before O'Malley becomes governor and 

17 decides that the environment is meaningless.

18 Will this new regulation be effective? 

19 Only if it is enforced vigorously. I have little 

20 doubt that that will happen. As a result of my 

21 efforts to stop the degradation, state employees 

22 have tried to run me down, threatened to set fire 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
277

1 to my home, and then be promoted by the state, 

2 and have taken aim at me with their cars, along 

3 with Izaiah Leggett, County Executive, I have 

4 been harassed, threatened, injured, denied 

5 medical care, brutalized, and thrown in jail 

6 because of my efforts to stop the environment and 

7 try to get it to be a priority in Montgomery 

8 County, in Maryland, or in Federal Court. No one 

9 seems any interest in doing anything about it.

10 Each time I go out of my house, I fear 

11 for my life. Will I be arrested and thrown in 

12 jail again because I've exercised my right of 

13 free speech to document the pollution and see 

14 that it can be stopped? 

15 I have here -- by the way, it was Pete 

16 Seeger who just died and the song was, "This Land 

17 is Your Land. This land is my land, from 

18 California to New York Island, from the Redwood 

19 Forest to the Gulf Stream waters, this land was 

20 made for you and me." 

21 And I have not seen one single 

22 governmental agency at all levels do anything to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
278

1 stop what I see on a daily basis in my 

2 neighborhood. 

3 I will have copies of this picture. This 

4 shows the mud, silt, animal feces, going in to 

5 Rock Creek. This shows the manure that they 

6 grind up. They're supposed to pick it all up. 

7 Sometimes they leave it on the ground for weeks 

8 at a time. Sometimes they pick it up. Sometimes 

9 they just go in with their tractors and grind it 

10 up so it flows into the creek. 

11 When it is dry, as I said, it becomes 

12 extremely dusty. This picture is cloudy because 

13 you can just barely see the woman with her two 

14 kids trying to walk by the stables. 

15 This shows you another example. And 

16 another example. Now if anyone here wants to 

17 tell me this is not a violation of the Clean Air 

18 Act, then the Clean Air Act is a waste of time. 

19 Or the Clean Water. This is --

20 MS. ROSENBERG: Can you wrap up, please? 

21 MS. KOENICK: I am. I've just got a few 

22 more.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
279

1 This shows the two ponds. This one, by 

2 the way, should never have been built. And what 

3 happens is the manure goes into the pond, it 

4 fills up, it then goes into the next pond, and 

5 then goes into the creek. It has not been 

6 cleaned in six and a half years and O'Malley 

7 refuses to do anything about it.

8 Trees butchered. The trees are supposed 

9 to protect the environment. They don't. I've 

10 already mentioned the song. I've already 

11 mentioned about Woody Guthrie and that, but I 

12 also pulled something, which I don't have here, 

13 off of your own website that says what you do. I 

14 don't see it. 

15 And if this will work, fine. I have no 

16 confidence in it. Unless someone will step up to 

17 the plate, say look, let's look at this issue, 

18 let's look at the video, let's look at the 

19 movies, and we will see that this stops. This is 

20 less than a mile from the D.C. line. 

21 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Thank you for your 

22 comments.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
280

1 MS. KOENICK: Let me ask another 

2 question. Has anyone bothered to do a saline 

3 test on the water around here before and after 

4 the last ice storm, or the last month and a half 

5 of snow? Because they put the ice on -- they put 

6 salt on the roads and where does it go? 

7 MS. ROSENBERG: Right.

8 MS. KOENICK: Into the water. EPA needs 

9 to look into that, seriously.

10 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Thank you. All 

11 right. 

12 MS. KOENICK: I still would like to meet 

13 with you all.

14 MS. ROSENBERG: Mr. Shibley, do you want 

15 to --

16 MR. SHIBLEY: good afternoon. I'm Mark 

17 Shibley. I am from Richmond, Virginia. I am 

18 here through a call from the National Wildlife 

19 Federation with the Sierra Club, and as a 

20 concerned citizen. 

21 Pollution is chemical warfare against the 

22 planet. Science has revealed that the demise of 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
281

1 dinosaurs and extinction of many life forms was 

2 due to a meteor, comet, or asteroid impact in the 

3 Yucatan Peninsula some sixty-five and a half 

4 million years ago. There was enough debris 

5 thrust into the atmosphere to cause an ice age.

6 Science has also shown that a volcanic 

7 eruption around 535 A.D. is in what is now El 

8 Salvador, caused a volcanic winter and the 

9 explanation for the Dark Ages. There was enough 

10 ash and acid dust to veil much of the Earth from 

11 Greenland to Antarctica. There was so much 

12 pollution that it dimmed the sun enough to cause 

13 unseasonable weather, famines and crop failures.

14 The volcanic eruptions in Iceland in 2010 

15 halted air traffic for five days, and dropped ash 

16 thousands of miles away in the winds of the upper 

17 atmosphere.

18 We know that a single smokestack emits a 

19 minimal amount of pollutants compared to the 

20 astronomic impact or volcanic activity mentioned 

21 above. It is, however, the massive numbers of 

22 smokestacks that create the global problems. The 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
282

1 carcinogenic mix of pollutants from various 

2 industries can create a dangerous atmospheric 

3 soup. The various pollutants can combine in the 

4 atmosphere and affect unsuspecting people.

5 There have been studies showing the 

6 increased incidence of cancers downwind of many 

7 manufacturing plants, the pollutants rise and are 

8 carried by wind currents. The amounts may be a 

9 few microns per million per smokestack, but we 

10 are constantly being exposed.

11 We are seeing the demise of the Monarch 

12 Butterflies, their lives are more fragile than 

13 ours and they can't fight or escape the poisons. 

14 They are an indicator of the problem. 

15 There also has been a noticeable 

16 reduction of song birds. They too are victims of 

17 a carbon pollution problem. Studies are showing 

18 an ever increasing incidence of asthma and 

19 cancers in our children. It is apparent to me 

20 that the weakest are the first to reveal the 

21 early stages of a serious problem. Ironically as 

22 was the Canary in the coalmine. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
283

1 We have to be astute and acknowledge the 

2 signs. Ignoring them won't make them go away. A 

3 logical conclusion seems to be that pollutants 

4 from factories and coal-fired power plants just 

5 upwind or those thousands of miles away are 

6 raining pollutants and impacting the environment 

7 causing problems around the world. 

8 It seems to me industry is unwilling --

9 is unwittingly or wantonly inflicting chemical 

10 warfare on the plant life, animals, and people of 

11 the planet. The amounts may seem small, but when 

12 you look at the total picture all the factories 

13 and their combined output over time, it reveals a 

14 deadly situation on the horizon. Geologists 

15 learn from the deposits from cataclysms of the 

16 past and study their effects on the environment 

17 at a time in history -- it affects on the 

18 environment at a time in history.

19 They study the pollution in the 

20 stratification of rocks and in soil samples, and 

21 determine how it will affect the environment of 

22 the future. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
284

1 At the current rates of pollution and 

2 chemicals released, we may not have a century 

3 before things are too polluted to survive. We in 

4 the United States claim to be world leaders, so 

5 let us be leaders and responsible stewards of 

6 this small, fragile, planet, and strive to make 

7 it a better place than we found it.

8 The EPA should approach universities in 

9 the form of a competition with scholarships as a 

10 reward to research and develop ways to clean up 

11 existing dirty plants. 

12 When I was at VCU I was a member of the 

13 Advertising Club and various universities got 

14 together to create ad campaigns. I don't see any 

15 reason why we can't take engineering schools and 

16 put them into the mix and have them research the 

17 problems. Industry says it costs too much. It's 

18 almost free; a few dollars for scholarships or 

19 they'll do it for free. I know, I've been there. 

20 We have to start sometime and now would 

21 be the best time to stop or at least put some 

22 limits on the carbon pollutants released into the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
285

1 air by our power plants. This proposed 

2 regulation is only a drop in the bucket of what 

3 needs to be done. But it is a beginning. Thank 

4 you.

5 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Do you have a 

6 question?

7 (No response.) 

8 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. 

9 MS. KOENICK: As a two seat survivor, I'm 

10 tired of having to breathe this stuff. Two 

11 times. 

12 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. All right. 

13 We will take a 10 minute break. We'll back about 

14 2:40 if that's okay. Does that work for you?

15 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Yes.

16 (Recess from 2:30 p.m. until 2:40 p.m.)

17 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Well, I think both 

18 rooms are taking a break at the same time so we 

19 may have lost some of our audience. But we are 

20 ready to get started again, so is Ryan Kingston 

21 here?

22 MR. KINGSTON: Yes.

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
286

1 MS. ROSENBERG: Excellent. And Jeanie 

2 Gosche, Gosche? 

3 Okay. Well, go ahead and we'll -- and 

4 for this round I'd like you to spell your name, 

5 please, for the recorder. 

6 MR. KINGSTON: Okay.

7 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay? All right. Go 

8 ahead.

9 MR. KINGSTON: All right. My name is 

10 Ryan Kingston. My last name is spelled K-I-N-G11 S-T-O-N. 

12 All right. So if we do not take action 

13 on climate change, every dollar we have spent in 

14 environmental restoration and protection so far 

15 will have been wasted. 

16 Having grown up on Long Island Sound my 

17 family has seen significant improvements in water 

18 quality over the last 30 or so years. Where my 

19 grandparents were once told to stay out of the 

20 water, we now have public access and public space 

21 where people can go and enjoy the resource. It's 

22 really a great testament to all the work the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
287

1 states and the Federal Government has done to 

2 protect and restore the Sound.

3 I was actually lucky enough to have 

4 attended an out culture school in Bridgeport 

5 Connecticut, spent a significant time out on the 

6 water, learned a lot. My first boat trip with 

7 the school happened during a summer camp in 

8 middle school. 

9 The boat cast some nets, trolled the 

10 Sound floor, and hauled up a basket full of 

11 wonders. I was really fascinated by the variety 

12 of species of crabs and the ground fish and the 

13 shell fish. Our teacher even took time to show 

14 us a sample of water just swarming with algae and 

15 plankton. 

16 I really became fascinated by the 

17 diversity of life in what was practically my 

18 backyard. I'm certain that if it weren't for 

19 this experience I wouldn't be here in front of 

20 you right now. Probably wouldn't even be in this 

21 field. 

22 It's really my hope that future 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
288

1 generations, my kids and grandkids, will have 

2 these same experiences so that they can continue 

3 to explore and develop a fascination for the 

4 natural world.

5 But climate change really threatens our 

6 natural resources, would really undo all of the 

7 progress we've already made. With more intense 

8 storms, for example, sewer systems will overflow 

9 more frequently and really degrade the quality of 

10 our water. 

11 We saw this happen during Hurricane Sandy 

12 from Virginia to Connecticut with the increased 

13 water outflow. Sewer systems were overwhelmed 

14 causing eleven billion gallons of untreated and 

15 partially treated sewage to be dumped into 

16 adjacent waterways, including Long Island Sound.

17 Climate change isn't just about 

18 protecting the polar bears and armoring our 

19 coastlines. It's about protecting human health 

20 from these hazards. 

21 Although I'd like my kids to explore and 

22 enjoy the sound, there's no way I'd let them swim 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
289

1 in there if it was filled with sewage. 

2 And I know that's not even the worst 

3 impact climate change will bring. I'm sure 

4 you've heard about more intense hurricanes and 

5 nor'easters, drought and wildfires, invasive 

6 pests and disease, just to name a few. But I'm 

7 sure you've heard this all before and will 

8 continue to hear it throughout the day.

9 I do, however, have to commend the 

10 Administration for already taking strong action 

11 in raising fuel efficiency standards for cars and 

12 passing a rule for existing power plants. 

13 Enacting rules for new power plants simply makes 

14 sense.

15 So let's cut the carbon and keep moving 

16 forward on climate. Thank you.

17 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Questions? 

18 (No response.) 

19 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Did Jeanie 

20 Gosche --

21 MS. GOSCHE: Jennie Gosche. Yes.

22 MS. ROSENBERG: Gosche. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
290

1 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Thanks very much.

2 MS. GOSCHE: I've got two copies.

3 MS. ROSENBERG: Oh, great. Okay. Thank 

4 you. 

5 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: How do you spell 

6 the last name?

7 MS. ROSENBERG: She'll spell it.

8 MR. KETCHAN-COLWILL: Okay. 

9 MS. GOSCHE: The previous speaker spoke 

10 about polar bears, and here I am with photographs 

11 of them. 

12 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. When you introduce 

13 yourself, will you please spell your name?

14 MS. GOSCHE: My name is Jennie Gosche, J15 E-N-N-I-E G-O-S-C-H-E. 

16 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you.

17 MS. GOSCHE: I would like to thank you 

18 for allowing me to add my remarks to your 

19 deliberations about proposed rules to limit 

20 carbon pollution being emitted from existing 

21 coal-fired power plants.

22 I would also like to thank the National 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
291

1 Wildlife Federation for inviting me to 

2 participate today. 

3 My name is Jennie Gosche and I live in 

4 Kensington, Maryland. I am employed as a social 

5 worker and therapist by Montgomery County 

6 Government. But today I want to talk about my 

7 experience as a wildlife photographer and my 

8 passionate advocacy for the polar bear and my 

9 concern about their survival, and the survival of 

10 all life in the Arctic.

11 In November 2010 I visited Churchill, 

12 Manitoba, Canada, the polar bear capital of the 

13 world to photograph the polar bears. 

14 Polar bears are listed as threatened 

15 under the U.S. Endangered Species Act, and my two 

16 photographs, this bear here on my right is a coy, 

17 which is a first year bear. And this photograph 

18 is a photograph of two older bears with their 

19 mother, which are probably close to two years 

20 old. They're almost as large as their mother. 

21 Bears usually stay with their mothers about two 

22 to two and a half years. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
292

1 Last month the World Wildlife Fund --

2 MS. ROSENBERG: We may need you to speak 

3 into that microphone too because that goes to the 

4 recorder. Just keep them both together. Sorry 

5 to interrupt you, but --

6 MS. GOSCHE: Oh, okay. 

7 MS. ROSENBERG: -- I could tell he 

8 couldn't hear you.

9 MS. GOSCHE: Last month the World 

10 Wildlife Fund reported that approximately 5,000 

11 polar bear cubs are believed to have been born in 

12 the Arctic around New Year's Day. Polar bear 

13 mothers usually give birth to twins, but three 

14 and sometimes four cubs are occasionally born. 

15 But many of those cubs, up to 45 to 65 percent, 

16 do not live to reach adulthood.

17 Many factors affect the survival of polar 

18 bear cubs. A female polar bear will stay in the 

19 den with her just-born cubs for months without 

20 food, until the cubs are large enough to follow 

21 her on the ice as she hunts for seals. 

22 And this bear here is, his mother is to 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
293

1 the side.

2 The polar bears -- to hunt for seals the 

3 polar bear's most fat-laden food. Some cubs do 

4 not survive very long if their mother does not 

5 have the fat stores necessary to nurse her cubs, 

6 or the strength to find food after months of 

7 fasting in the birthing den. 

8 The Arctic ice on which polar bears 

9 depend to hunt seal and raise their cubs, is 

10 retreating at an alarming rate. The ice is 

11 freezing later in the fall and breaking up 

12 earlier in the spring. Many scientists believe 

13 the Arctic warming is due to rising levels of 

14 greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere. Carbon 

15 pollution from the United States' coal-fired 

16 power plants has a direct impact on the Earth's 

17 atmosphere as well as the formation and retreat 

18 of the ice in the Arctic.

19 Please require existing coal-fired power 

20 plants to reduce their carbon emissions. The 

21 polar bears in the Arctic, as well as all U.S. 

22 citizens will benefit. If you do not act now the 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
294

1 polar bear may become endangered and could be 

2 extinct in our lifetime. Thank you.

3 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Okay. Danny 

4 Ruthenberg Marshall and Grant Lahmann.

5 MR. LAHMANN: Yes.

6 MR. MARSHALL: Hi. My name is Daniel 

7 Marshall. I'm a videographer in the area. 

8 MS. ROSENBERG: Can you spell your name 

9 for the recorder, please?

10 MR. MARSHALL: Yes, D-A-N-I-E-L, 

11 Marshall, M-A-R-S-H-A-L-L. 

12 A cousin of mine recently gave birth to a 

13 beautiful baby boy, also named Daniel. He's not 

14 named after me, but he's still a bundle of joy 

15 and the best behaved baby you'll ever meet. 

16 While my cousin was pregnant, I remember 

17 her talking about some of the things she wasn't 

18 supposed to be doing. Among them was eating 

19 seafood and I thought about our coal-fired power 

20 plants emitting tens of thousands of pounds of 

21 mercury into the atmosphere every year, and how 

22 that mercury rains down and contaminates our 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
295

1 waterways and poisons our fish. Not enough that 

2 the average person would notice, but definitely 

3 enough for Baby Daniel to notice.

4 We welcomed Daniel into this world in 

5 June and I'm happy to say that my cousin is 

6 fortunate enough to live in a neighborhood far 

7 away from any coal-fired power plant. And 

8 Daniel's risk of getting asthma isn't 

9 significantly increased. 

10 But what about all the children who are 

11 being born every day and growing up in 

12 neighborhoods where asthma and cancer rates are 

13 going through the roof?

14 Those children aren't afforded the same 

15 opportunities as Daniel, because we as a society 

16 can't get our act together.

17 I sometimes wonder what would happen if 

18 Daniel had been born in Beijing, where some days 

19 the air quality is so poor you can't see across 

20 the street. Hundreds of babies are being born 

21 every day in that city and breathing that toxic 

22 air is their first breath on this beautiful 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
296

1 plant. Breathing deep and taking in some of the 

2 worst air on the planet.

3 Those babies got truly unlucky being born 

4 into that situation, into a country that isn't 

5 free, and to a people who cannot advocate for 

6 themselves without fear of persecution. 

7 Here, we have the unalienable right to 

8 speak up and be heard, but what good is it if our 

9 government doesn't listen? What happens if the 

10 will of the people is ignored; if common sense is 

11 ignored? 

12 Will our air continue to worsen? Will it 

13 eventually sink to such levels that everyone can 

14 physically see the danger they face with every

15 breath as the people of Beijing do? 

16 Sometimes I like to believe that we live 

17 in a functional republic where the government 

18 answers to the people instead of this quagmire we 

19 face in D.C. Thankfully in this case it's a 

20 small easy step to take. You have the power to 

21 finalize this rule and you have the moral 

22 obligation to do so, for my sake, for Baby 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
297

1 Daniel's sake, for the sake of every single 

2 person in this country. I hope you realize this 

3 rule -- I hope you finalize this rule and help us 

4 guarantee a clean and safe atmosphere for 

5 generations to come. Thank you.

6 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. 

7 MR. LAHMANN: Hi, my name is Grant 

8 Lahmann. Excuse me. I'm the Outreach Director 

9 for Small Business Majority. 

10 MS. ROSENBERG: Spell your name.

11 MR. LAHMANN: Yes. First name, Grant, G12 R-A-N-T. Last name is L-A-H-M-A-N-N.

13 Thank you for giving me this opportunity 

14 to represent my organization and provide comment 

15 on the carbon pollution standards you're facing. 

16 Small Business Majority is a non-profit, 

17 nonpartisan, small business organization found 

18 and run by small business owners focused on 

19 solving the biggest problems facing small 

20 businesses today. We represent 28 million 

21 Americans who are either self-employed or own 

22 businesses of up to a hundred employees. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
298

1 Our organization uses scientific 

2 research, opinion and economic and works with our 

3 network of more than 25,000 small business owners 

4 to understand and represent the interests of the 

5 small business community. 

6 I'd like and hope to offer comments today 

7 on the small business perspective on EPA 

8 standards that would eliminate carbon emissions 

9 from new power plants and their impact on 

10 America's 28 million small businesses and the 

11 economy as a whole.

12 Over the past 40 years, the Environmental

13 Protection Agency has proven itself as much a 

14 protector of our economy as of the public's 

15 health. And we see new EPA standards under the 

16 Clean Air Act as a key component to progressing 

17 toward a clean energy economy and to creating 

18 jobs. That view is based upon the fact that 

19 during the last two decades under the Clean Air 

20 Act, gross domestic product has increased by up 

21 to 64 percent while emissions of the most common 

22 air pollutants have declined by 41 percent. 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
299

1 Contrary to misleading claims from 

2 opponents of clean energy and environmental 

3 safeguards, reducing pollution is good for 

4 business and the Clean Air Act has been proven to 

5 be a wise investment for long-term economic 

6 growth.

7 Studies show that the economic benefits 

8 of the Act have far exceeded the cost to 

9 businesses. According to the Office of 

10 Management and Budget, the total economic 

11 benefits of the Clean Air Act are estimated at 

12 more than four to eight times the cost of 

13 compliance. 

14 Additionally, between 2010 and 2015 

15 capital investments in pollution controls and new 

16 generation will create an estimated 1.46 million 

17 jobs, or almost 300,000 year-round jobs on 

18 average for each of those five years.

19 The EPA's proposed rule that would limit 

20 greenhouse gas emissions from new power plants 

21 will help spur innovation and provide 

22 opportunities for small businesses. And this 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
300

1 standard is supported by the vast majority of 

2 entrepreneurs. Our opinion polling found three 

3 quarters of small business owners are in favor of 

4 requiring new power plants to reduce emissions of 

5 carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses. 

6 What's more, 56 percent would still 

7 support this standard even if it means an 

8 increase in utility rates. Our polling also 

9 found that 52 percent of small businesses support 

10 EPA, regulating carbon emissions from existing 

11 power plants that cause climate change, and 

12 another 65 percent support the EPA's rules to 

13 reduce mercury and other toxic emissions that get 

14 into the air from power plants.

15 Six in ten agree expanded use of 

16 renewable energy sources can have economic 

17 benefits for small business owners as well. And 

18 almost seven in ten support increasing automotive 

19 fuel efficiency standards.

20 We know that small business owners also 

21 support key strategies needed to reduce pollution 

22 and transition to a clean energy economy. Small 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
301

1 Business Majority's recent national poll of small 

2 business owners found that 56 percent of 

3 entrepreneurs believe that government can play an 

4 important role in creating financial incentives 

5 to help small businesses take advantage of energy 

6 efficiency measures, saving businesses money and 

7 reducing energy consumption.

8 Small business owners also believe 

9 government investments in clean energy have an 

10 important role in boosting our national economy 

11 and creating jobs. Our polling found 71 percent 

12 of small employers believe it is important 

13 government continues to invest in clean energy.

14 While 57 percent of small businesses 

15 reported their businesses will be impacted by EPA 

16 oversight of carbon and other emissions, 

17 including one in four who say they will be 

18 majorly impacted, as I stated earlier, 56 percent 

19 in the same poll still support EPA regulating 

20 greenhouse gas emissions, even if it means a 

21 possible increase in utility prices. 

22 As our polling shows, small businesses 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
302

1 believe a clean energy economy, that includes 

2 robust clean energy standards, is rife with 

3 economic possibilities. 

4 Entrepreneurs understand clean energy can 

5 stimulate the economy and create new jobs now and 

6 believe we should be investing in this area to 

7 spur growth.

8 Despite strong small business report, 

9 efforts to set standards reducing carbon 

10 emissions have been blocked over and over. That 

11 comes at the expense, we believe, of our economic 

12 future. 

13 It is important the EPA know its proposal 

14 to limit greenhouse gas emissions from new power 

15 plants is one small businesses support. Thank 

16 you.

17 MS. ROSENBERG: Thank you. Do we have 

18 questions? 

19 Are you leaving written testimony with 

20 citations?

21 MR. LAHMANN: Yes. Absolutely, and happy 

22 to follow up with --

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376
303

1 MS. ROSENBERG: That would be great. 

2 MR. LAHMANN: -- additional. 

3 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay.

4 MR. LAHMANN: Uh-huh.

5 MS. ROSENBERG: You can leave it here.

6 MR. LAHMANN: Absolutely.

7 MS. ROSENBERG: Okay. Thank you, very 

8 much.

9 MR. LAHMANN: Thank you, very much. 

10 MS. ROSENBERG: Oh, okay. Great. So we 

11 are going to close this and we're going to move 

12 into the other room and consolidate. 

13 Thank you all very much. 

14 (Whereupon, at 3:01 p.m., the 

15 Environmental Protection Agency, Public Hearing 

16 on Standards of Performance of Greenhouse 

17 Emissions From New Stationary Sources held in 

18 room B was concluded.)

19

20

21

22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC.

1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036

Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376