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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

 + + + + +

 PUBLIC COMMENT WEBINAR

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY,

 OCTOBER 24, 2017

 The National Organic Standards Board

convened via webinar at 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time,

Tom Chapman, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:

TOM CHAPMAN, Chair

ASHLEY SWAFFAR, Vice Chair

JESSE BUIE, Secretary 

FRANCIS THICKE, Crops Subcommittee Chair 

SUE BAIRD 

HARRIET BEHAR 

ASA BRADMAN 

LISA DE LIMA

STEVE ELA 

DAVE MORTENSEN 

JOELLE MOSSO

EMILY OAKLEY

SCOTT RICE

A-DAE ROMERO-BRIONES 

DAN SEITZ 
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ALSO PRESENT:

PAUL LEWIS, Director, Standards Division

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee 

 Specialist, NOSB

LISA BRINES, National List Manager

SHANNON NALLY YANESSA, Assistant Director, 

 Standards Division

MATT PAVONE, Policy Analyst, Standards Division

DEVON PATTILLO, Materials Specialist, Standards 

 Division

BRIDGET McELROY, Policy Analyst, Standards 

 Division
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Welcome

 Paul Lewis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Opening Remarks

 Tom Chapman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

Member Roll Call

 Michelle Arsenault . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8

Public Comments. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10

Closing Comments

 Tom Chapman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 188

Adjourn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 189
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (1:04 p.m.)

3 MR. LEWIS: Thank you, Michelle. And

4 welcome, everyone, to today's National Organic

5 Standards Board webinar. I'm Paul Lewis,

6 Director of Standards Division of the National

7 Organic Program.

8 I would like welcome NOSB members and

9 the public to today's Board public comment

10 webinar. And I appreciate NOSB member

11 participation as called, and for all your work

12 serving on the Board.

13 This webinar provides the opportunity

14 for the public to provide comments to the

15 National Organic Standards Board as part of the

16 Board's upcoming public face-to-face meeting

17 scheduled for October 31 to November 2.

18 And at that time, at that meeting, the

19 National Organic Program will also be providing

20 an update on NOP activities. Please consult the

21 National Organic Program website for further

22 information about the face-to-face meeting.
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1 This meeting, like other meetings of

2 the National Organic Standards Board operates

3 under the auspices of the Federal Advisory

4 Committee Act. I am looking forward to hearing

5 comments from the public to assist the National

6 Organic Standards Board in preparing their

7 recommendations to USDA.

8 I also want to thank my National

9 Organic Program Standards Division colleagues for

10 their help and their tireless work behind the

11 scenes to bring us to today's teleconference.

12 I would like to now turn to the chair

13 of the National Organic Standards Board, Tom

14 Chapman. Tom, thank you for chairing today's

15 meeting.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Paul. Sorry

17 it took me a moment to find my own unmute button,

18 so following my own advice. On behalf of the

19 Board, I would like to welcome everyone to the

20 public comment webinar prior to our Fall meeting,

21 which will be our sixth meeting with a webinar,

22 and I think everyone sees the tremendous value
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1 and increased access with these web meetings

2 given, so much that we're going to be doing two

3 sessions this time with another session on

4 Thursday.

5 Let me please ask for some forgiveness

6 up front from everybody as we're having IT

7 issues, and I know it's hard, and I've said it a

8 couple times, but most importantly, please

9 remember to keep yourself on mute. Star 6 to

10 mute, star 7 to unmute, or use the handy mute

11 button on your hand-held device. But don't put

12 us on hold, no matter how lovely your hold music

13 may be.

14 So after the introductory formalities,

15 we'll be beginning public comment period, and

16 then we'll go in order. If someone is not

17 present at the time they are called upon, and

18 there is time remaining at the end of the comment

19 period, I'll run through the list again of those

20 missed.

21 I will be calling on the next speaker

22 as well as the next one or two on deck so you'll
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1 have a little bit of a heads-up if you're coming

2 up. If you cannot find your phone number on the

3 list of phone numbers here, we may ask for a

4 specific commenter to message us with your phone

5 number. Also be sure that you're not muted.

6 When called upon, commenters are asked

7 to give your name and affiliation for the record. 

8 We ask that you disclose all relevant

9 affiliations pertaining to matters or business

10 before the Board. I encourage anyone that is

11 with us be, and if you want further

12 clarification, to ask questions after the public 

13 commenter finishes their comments.

14 The initial comment time will be three

15 minutes per commenter. We'll hear a buzzer at

16 that three minute mark, and I ask our respective

17 Board and all the other commenters that you try

18 to finish your sentence as soon as you hear that

19 buzzer.

20 At that point we'll field questions,

21 if there are any, from the Board, and then move

22 on to the next commenter. There will be
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1 transcripts of this call, and that will be

2 bundled with the transcripts for the entire

3 meeting when they are available.

4 With that, I think we're about ready

5 to get started. Michelle, would you be so kind

6 to do a roll call of the Board present.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: Indeed. Thank you

8 Tom. All right. Sue Baird. Sue, I know you're

9 online, I can see you.

10 MS. BAIRD: I'm sorry. Here.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: That's okay. Harriet

12 Behar?

13 MS. BEHAR: I'm here.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Harriet. Asa

15 Bradman?

16 MR. BRADMAN: I'm here.

17 MS. ARSENAULT: Hey, Asa. Jesse Buie?

18 MR. BUIE: Present.

19 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello Jesse. Tom

20 Chapman, we know you're here, but would you like

21 to say it?

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Present.
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: Lisa De Lima?

2 MS. DE LIMA: Here.

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello there. Steve

4 Ela?

5 MR. ELA: I'm here.

6 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Steve. Dave

7 Mortensen?

8 MR. MORTENSEN: I'm here.

9 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Dave. Joelle

10 Mosso?

11 MS. MOSSO: Here.

12 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome Joelle. Emily

13 Oakley?

14 MS. OAKLEY: Present.

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Emily. Scott Rice?

16 MR. RICE: Present, thanks.

17 MS. ARSENAULT: Thanks Scott. A-Dae

18 Romero-Briones?

19 MR. ROMERO-BRIONES: I'm here.

20 MS. ARSENAULT: Hey A-Dae. Dan Seitz?

21 MR. SEITZ: Present.

22 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello Dan. Ashley
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1 Swaffar?

2 MS. SWAFFAR: Here.

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi there. And Francis

4 Thicke? Francis, I know you're on. If you're

5 talking, we can't hear you. No, still not. So I

6 know you're present because I can see you on my

7 screen.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: I unmuted you Francis. 

9 You were muted on yours, not on ours.

10 MS. ARSENAULT: Not there? All right.

11 He's talking? So Francis, can you try again? 

12 Okay, well hopefully we'll work that out Tom, and

13 get his audio working. Thank you.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. With that,

15 we'll get started. First up we have Steve Etka. 

16 Following Steve will be Harold Austin and Ruth

17 Watts. Steve, if you could start with your name

18 and relevant affiliation.

19 MR. ETKA: Thank you. My name is

20 Steve Etka and I'm with the National Organic

21 Coalition. The funding process is in full swing

22 in Congress and NOC and its member organizations
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1 and D.C. partners are very much in the middle of

2 those discussions.

3 NOC's focus has been on funding for

4 organic research and certification cost-share

5 programs, expanding farmer access to regionally

6 adapted feeds, and strengthening NOC resources,

7 and enforcement to deal with fraudulent organic

8 imports.

9 But unfortunately, there is also a

10 debate taking place about the NOSB itself, with

11 some congressional critics of organic posing

12 questions about possible statutory changes in the

13 Board.

14 My belief is that the current

15 statutory structure of the Board is sound and

16 most carefully crafted by NOC to insure full

17 participation by all sectors of organic. While

18 pure added changes to the NOSB process can be

19 made administratively, it is dangerous unarguably

20 to be making changes to the statutory NOSB

21 structure and authority.

22 We value your work in the transparent
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1 and inclusively your undertaking. NOC continues

2 to appreciate NOSB's work to put together

3 research priorities, and the growing list is a

4 great example of why we are pushing for more

5 organic research funding.

6 Some of these priorities relate to

7 challenges regarding sunset decisions. In the

8 state of the NOC's comments, we support the

9 relisting of 6-copper and copper sulfate because

10 they are critical to us for farmers and are near

11 viable alternatives.

12 Yet, we also strongly support research

13 targeted to finding alternatives because of the

14 negative effects of these formulations on soil

15 health. We appreciate the addition of organic

16 livestock breeding to the research priority list

17 and emphasize its importance to the integrity of

18 organic poultry in particular.

19 More studies are needed, but

20 investigating our way of management and feeding

21 practices that can provide adequate total protein

22 and thiamine for bird health and well-being, as
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1 well as breeding for traits in a more suitable,

2 thriving and organic outdoor and pasture systems.

3 We'd also like to see research

4 priority focus on the integrity of breeding lines

5 used in organic plant breeding and seed

6 production, and identifying the best methods for

7 preventing and mitigating unwanted GE material in 

8 seed used by organic operations.

9 In the better data, to better

10 understand the extent of the problem and research

11 that evaluates the effectiveness of methods for

12 preventing the problem.

13 In closing, I want to thank NOSB and

14 NOP for setting up the open dockets for the

15 public to dialogue with the Board on an ongoing

16 basis. It's our hope that that process can be a

17 two-way dialogue for the Board to interact in

18 real time with the public.

19 And that would include posting

20 documents on key issues early to get feedback

21 throughout the process instead of waiting just

22 before the meeting when there's a time crunch. 
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1 Right now we have a one-way docket, and we need

2 to make sure that the open docket doesn't simply

3 become an empty docket. Thank you.

4 MS. ARSENAULT: Wow, great timing.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Steve. Any

6 questions for Steve? Being none, we'll be moving

7 on to our next speaker. Next up is Harold,

8 followed by Ruth Watts, and after Ruth is

9 Jeanette Hanna. Harold, are you with us?

10 MR. AUSTIN: I am.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Can you start with your

12 name and relevant affiliations please.

13 MR. AUSTIN: Good day everyone. 

14 Harold Austin, past member of the NOSB. I would

15 like to thank the NOP for allowing us the

16 opportunity to provide oral public comment via

17 the webinar process. This is a great use of

18 today's technology for the benefit of organics

19 and the various stakeholders that comprise it.

20 I would also would like to thank each

21 of you currently on the NOSB for taking the time

22 out of your busy schedules to serve your
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1 stakeholder group as well as the organic

2 community. Thank you guys. I know the time that

3 it takes.

4 I support the CACS's proposal on

5 eliminating incentive to convert native

6 ecosystems to organic production. This needs to

7 be done.

8 I support the renewal of those

9 materials for handling that are currently up for

10 sunset vote at this upcoming meeting. These

11 materials remain important to those handing

12 operations that currently use them in their daily

13 operations and production process.

14 I fully support the re-listing of the

15 chlorine materials currently up for sunset review

16 for both handling and crop production uses. 

17 These various chlorines, along with other types

18 of sanitizers and disinfectants and other various

19 controlled measures, are used in a variety of

20 steps in organic crop production and handling.

21 These materials are most often used in

22 different steps of process in order to avoid a
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1 resistance build-up to one specific material or

2 substance by the various pathogens being treated

3 for. Thus having different forms of chlorine,

4 along with other sanitizing materials, is

5 important to insure proper steps have been taken

6 to see that consumer expectations have been met

7 and that food safety is always our number one

8 goal.

9 The implementation of the Food Safety

10 Modernization Act has made meeting these

11 expectations now a legal requirement for crop

12 producers and handlers alike.

13 I support the re-listing of those

14 materials up for sunset review and vote for use

15 in organic crop production. I would like to

16 stress the importance of maintaining coppers on

17 the national list.

18 With the removal of the

19 oxytetracycline and streptomycin, copper has now

20 become our number one material for control of

21 various blight, such as fire blight and Coryneum

22 blight that attack our crops. Without this
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1 material on the national list, we would not be

2 able to farm many of the varieties that we

3 currently farm.

4 And we do implement a lot of

5 horticultural practices along with these

6 materials, so it's not just like this is a

7 panacea. We are doing everything we can and we

8 still have to use the copper in order to control

9 fire blight and Coryneum blight.

10 Finally, while not perfect, the

11 National Organic Program has helped to grow

12 consumer and organic stakeholder confidence in

13 the organic label and the integrity that it

14 represents and stands for. That includes not

15 just here in our country, but globally.

16 Miles McEvoy, during his eight years

17 as of the head of the NOP, accomplished some

18 amazing things that were for the good of the

19 organic community and its various stakeholder

20 groups. If anybody thinks otherwise, you truly

21 do not know Miles and how strongly committed to

22 organics he was and always has been.
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1 He is the reason we have organics in

2 our state, and we will always be appreciative of

3 his embodiment of what organics truly represent

4 and stand for. A way of life. Our way of life.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you Harold. Any

6 questions for Harold? I've got one. Ashley.

7 MS. SWAFFAR: Hi Harold. Thank you

8 for your comments. I just want to talk a little

9 bit about the chlorine materials, and you

10 mentioned how they're important to rotate through

11 for resistance. Can you kind of maybe go into

12 that a little bit more? I would like to hear

13 your thoughts on that.

14 MR. AUSTIN: Sure. For us,

15 particularly as a tree fruit, we use the

16 different materials, the sanitizers and the

17 disinfectants. We use them out in the field to

18 treat our equipment when we are treating or

19 cutting the limbs for fire blight control. We'll 

20 treat them with a lot of things, maybe it's with

21 chlorine, maybe it's with peracetic acid,

22 something like that, or hydrogen peroxide.
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1 We treat our bins. We rinse our bins

2 out. When coming to the packing facility, we

3 also have to disinfect and clean and sanitize our

4 storages. And when coming to our packing lines,

5 our bins get dumped and immersed into water that

6 has chlorine added to it. It gets transported

7 through brushes, across some conveyor belts,

8 maybe through some sizer cups or belts.

9 So there's a multitude of different

10 areas where our foods get contacted with various

11 surfaces. So we can't rely on just one material. 

12 We've got to rely on different materials so that

13 we're breaking up the cycle of contact with the

14 different pathogens so we're managing the systems

15 management and control.

16 So for us, you know, having one or two

17 materials isn't going to be adequate because of

18 the different various control points where we're

19 treating to control these pathogens.

20 And now the implementation of the Food

21 Safety Modernization Act, it's now a legal

22 requirement that we have to ensure that we're
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1 providing a good, safe product for the consumer

2 to buy and to give to their families and their

3 children.

4 So sanitizers, especially the

5 chlorines, are extremely important to us. We use

6 the chlorines in our dip tanks. We use them in

7 multiple other steps, but we intermix it with

8 some of the other materials, such as ozone for

9 example.

10 So we need them. Without them, I

11 think we'd have a real tough time meeting

12 compliance with the Food Safety Modernization Act

13 to be honest.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much

15 Harold.

16 MR. AUSTIN: Thank you guys.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. Up next we

18 have Ruth Watts followed by Jeanette Hanna, with

19 Zea Sonnabend on deck. Ruth, are you guys hooked

20 up?

21 MS. WATTS: Yes, thank you. This is

22 Ruth Watts. I'm with BASF Biopolymers, and I
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1 focus primarily on development of agriculture

2 opportunities. I want to acknowledge and thank

3 the NSOB and the NOP for the opportunity to speak

4 at this time and for all the commitments that you

5 guys have toward soil and environments to enrich

6 it.

7 Slide 1 please. As citizens, we are

8 all responsible for the health and safety of this

9 planet. As professional stewards of the

10 agriculture industry, we have a responsibility to

11 not only be good stewards of water and energy

12 usage, but we are also responsible for managing

13 our resources efficiently by minimalizing and

14 managing our waste.

15 Slide 2 please. Since the early

16 1960's, the benefits of polyethylene mulch film

17 have been known. Particularly for organic

18 farmers, the benefits of increased yield to meet

19 the increasing demand of organic produce,

20 reduction or elimination of herbicides for wheat

21 management, and reduced water consumption.

22 Despite all these great benefits which
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1 already have been realized with polyethylene

2 film, farmers are still -- they are prevented

3 from being good stewards of the planet due to the

4 end-of-life challenges of polyethylene mulch

5 film.

6 Slide 3 please. Due to the high soil

7 content of the used film, recyclers and land8 fillers will not accept this material. Or if

9 they do, the high keeping fees are extremely

10 high.

11 Therefore, many do not have an outlet

12 for the film, so it sits on the side of the

13 fields. In some cases it is burned. So the

14 question that has been proposed to me: Why are

15 we putting our trash in somebody else's back

16 yard?

17 Did you know that in order to get

18 polyethylene mulch film out of the field at the

19 end of the growing season, it requires a film

20 thickness greater than 30 to 40 percent of what's

21 really needed to provide those benefits that we

22 previously mentioned.
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1 This is necessary just to be able to

2 extract the film from the field, including the

3 fragments which are created due to the loss of

4 mechanical properties.

5 Slide 4 please. We've discussed that

6 the current commercial biodegradable mulch films

7 not only deliver the same benefits for the

8 farmers as the PE mulch film, but it addresses

9 the end-of-life issues in a safe and efficient

10 manner.

11 What may not be discussed yet is the

12 biodegradable mulch films can meet these

13 performances as PE at very lower film thickness

14 since it does not have to be removed from the

15 film.

16 This reduction in film thickness

17 demonstrates better use of input materials, and

18 past and present studies both from the industry

19 and academia show that there's no harm to the

20 soil or plant growth.

21 At BASF, we are responsible for

22 stewardship of all of our technologies, including
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1 those which are used in biodegradable mulch

2 films. As good stewards, we all continue with

3 research in access of biodegradable mulch

4 technologies.

5 We would ask the Board, the NSOB, to

6 vote not to sunset biodegradable mulch films. 

7 And we also ask the Board to recommend that the

8 NOP remove the Memo 15-1. Thank you very much.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

10 questions for Ruth?

11 MR. BRADMAN: This is Asa Bradman. I

12 have a question. You can email this to me. 

13 Could you send me the weight per square meter of

14 the biodegradable mulch? And I want to look at

15 that in relation to the mass of the soil in

16 making --.

17 MS. WATTS: Sure.

18 MR. BRADMAN: If you could send me

19 that, that would be great. Just the, you know,

20 grams or milligrams whatever per square meter of

21 the different materials.

22 MS. WATTS: Sure. Of the different
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1 types or what's needed for the actual

2 application, because it depends on the type of

3 film and what's required based on the, you know, 

4 the environmental condition. So I can give you a

5 range. Would that be helpful?

6 MR. BRADMAN: A range. Yes, different

7 types for different materials. Different types

8 of film.

9 MS. WATTS: Yes, I'll be glad to do

10 that.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: And Ruth --

12 MS. WATTS: Should I send that through

13 you Michelle? Is that what I should do?

14 MS. ARSENAULT: That's exactly what I

15 was about to tell you. So yes, send them to me

16 and I'll distribute them. Thanks.

17 MS. WATTS: Yes, absolutely. Thank

18 you guys.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Also a question from

20 Harriet.

21 MS. BEHAR: Hi Ruth.

22 MS. WATTS: Hi Harriet.
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1 MS. BEHAR: Hi. My understanding is

2 is the bioplastic that you have, when it

3 biodegrades, it is recognized by the microbes as

4 a food and they consume it. 

5 But there are other petroleum products

6 that are sold as synthetic fertilizers that have

7 the same characteristic. That they are synthetic

8 fertilizers, but are picked up by plant roots and

9 used by microbes to fertilize plants.

10 So perhaps again, something you can

11 send to us is explaining how your biopolymer is

12 different than the petroleum-based fertilizers

13 that we don't allow in organics.

14 MS. WATTS: Okay. I'll ask Dr.

15 Schlegel, with whom you guys met last time, to

16 see if she can address this for you.

17 MS. BEHAR: Thank you.

18 MS. WATTS: Okay, thank you.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next I have Jeanette

20 Hanna with Zea Sonnabend on deck, followed by

21 Guernina Hamza and Brian Filipowich. All right,

22 Jeanette, if you could start with your name and
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1 affiliation.

2 MS. HANNA: Sure, my name is Jeanette

3 Hanna and I work in Market Development for the

4 biopolymers business at BASF. I'd like to thank

5 the Board for taking the time to listen to the

6 input from the participants in today's webinar,

7 and today I wish to address the topic of

8 biodegradable mulch film.

9 My role in market development is to

10 work with all the stakeholders throughout the

11 agricultural and composting industries to help

12 identify where more sustainable practices might

13 be possible, and then insure these practices are

14 successfully implemented along with the proper

15 tools.

16 The goal is that these collaborations

17 will result in a more sustainable future for all

18 of us. As the certification body, your work is

19 essential for supporting developments toward this

20 sustainable future, and as an organization which

21 defines its standards based on ideals supporting

22 healthy and safe farming practices to insure
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1 stewardship of our planet, you are an important

2 influencer and gatekeeper for the introduction of

3 new technologies.

4 One of the most valuable features of

5 the Organic Program is it has the liberty of

6 taking a holistic view of the program. The

7 benefit of viewing from 50,000 feet is that we

8 can insure successful long-term outcomes, but

9 also, perhaps unexpectedly, in some cases a high10 level view also adds clarity to the details

11 taking place at 5,000 feet.

12 In one example at 50,000 feet, there

13 have been no shortages of publications

14 demonstrating the impact of organic farming on

15 soil health and global warming. This is, after

16 all, the priority to insure that organics is a

17 leader in materials and practices for a more

18 sustainable future.

19 And as such an example, I see the

20 discussion document for field and greenhouse

21 container production is also from a high-level

22 viewpoint. Here, the consideration includes the
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1 resources required for farming by this method,

2 and end-of-life outcomes for the materials used.

3 In particular, for the use of

4 polyethylene film, some of the challenges that

5 they pose for sustainable farming are described. 

6 We see here that biodegradable mulch films would

7 either eliminate or reduce these pain points for

8 farmers using mulch films for their crops.

9 Finally, as we take a look at the big

10 picture, I would like to address the topic of

11 feedstocks. This is not only an issue for

12 biodegradable mulch film with regard to Memo 15-

13 1, but it is relevant for current petitions and

14 future discussions in organics.

15 For example, I reviewed some of the

16 public comments on the Anaerobic Digestion

17 petition. The comments expressed an urgency to

18 define feedstocks for the AD process. I

19 challenge this public perception by saying it is

20 not the feedstock into the AD process which must

21 be defined. It is the final output of the

22 reactor which much be specified.
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1 Anaerobic digestion processes

2 transform incoming feedstocks. It is the

3 resulting product which is then considered as an

4 organic farming input based on its performance

5 and merits alone.

6 I therefore propose that it is not the

7 feedstocks that are important. The important

8 thing is to define a performance standard for

9 farm input.

10 In the case of biodegradable mulch

11 films, the standard for performance has already

12 been defined and is written into the regulation.

13 To conclude, I thank you for your time

14 and request that you vote to keep biodegradable

15 mulch film on the list and recommend that you

16 request the NOP remove Memo 15-1.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you Jeanette. Any

18 questions from the Board? I see A-Dae.

19 MR. ROMERO-BRIONES: Sorry, I just

20 pressed the wrong button.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. Any other

22 questions from the Board? Being none, thank you
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1 Jeanette for your comment. Up next we have Zea

2 Sonnabend, followed by Guernina Hamza. Guernina,

3 if you can message us with your phone number,

4 we're not finding you on the webinar, and are

5 followed by Brian Filipowich. And after Brian is

6 Donald Lusk. So up next is Zea Sonnabend, if you

7 could start with your name and affiliation for

8 the record.

9 MS. SONNABEND: Am I --

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Zea, can you start over. 

11 We just unmuted you.

12 MS. SONNABEND: Okay, you can hear me?

13 MR. CHAPMAN: I can hear you, yes.

14 MS. SONNABEND: Okay, thank you. Good

15 morning everyone. Zea Sonnabend, former NOSB

16 member representing CCOF and from Fruitilicious

17 Farm.

18 I'm pretty sure I'm not going to speak

19 on every single subject today. I am going to

20 speak just on four of the subjects.

21 First of all, an excluded message. As

22 one of the main instigators of this effort, I
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1 really do appreciate forward movement on it, but

2 we feel that the proposal as put out needs a

3 little more specificity to explain exactly what's

4 being prohibited here.

5 We would like to see each of the terms

6 defined and a particular statement about the

7 distinction between the term cisgenesis in this

8 context and the cell fusion within plant families

9 that's the subject of the 2013 NOP memo.

10 There was a lot of confusion even

11 amongst ourselves who know this stuff about it,

12 and we do think that it would be stronger if that

13 was clarified.

14 Next is the impurity discussion

15 document. During the April 2016 comment period,

16 the input was almost unanimously in favor of

17 creating an impurity task force. All of the

18 other ideas put forward in that last discussion

19 document would be addressed by such a task force

20 and a possible testing pilot program would

21 emerge.

22 So we were disappointed that we didn't
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1 see any mention of the task force in your

2 discussion document, and we urge you to take this

3 under consideration.

4 Next, the non-certified handler

5 operation. We understand the problem and we

6 appreciate your efforts to try and deal with the

7 handlers that are not certified. However,

8 farmers also use a lot of non-certified

9 operations such as storage facilities; both cold

10 storage and not cold storage.

11 An example such as apple and berries,

12 watermelons, and winter squash, nuts, olive oil

13 in drums and many other things. The storage is

14 almost always, but not exclusively, for the

15 farmer who has been taking the products back when

16 they're ready to sell it.

17 This proposal places an excessive

18 amount of new language on bulk containers for

19 farmers who are just trying to put their own

20 products somewhere in a designated storage. So

21 this will be a significant burden on farmers, and

22 we do urge you to modify the proposal to exempt
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1 that situation.

2 Last of all, converting native

3 ecosystems. CCOF appreciates the efforts to

4 protect native ecosystems and we appreciate the

5 NOSB trying to do something towards it. But we

6 are very concerned that this proposal is

7 unrealistic for certifiers to enforce.

8 Official maps and imaging services are

9 not always reliable, and the CCOF written

10 comments give some examples of this. Ten years

11 of verifiable information is not achievable and

12 will hold up a lot of eligible land from

13 certification. And the law now is only for three

14 years, so we question the legal authority to make

15 it longer. Thank you very much.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you Zea. Any

17 questions for Zea? I see one from Harriet.

18 MS. BEHAR: Hi Zea.

19 MS. SONNABEND: Hi.

20 MS. BEHAR: Just so you know, we have

21 been working with the NOP in trying to get

22 something, a seed purity task force is on our
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1 agenda almost every subcommittee call. But with

2 all the changes in the administration, and now

3 changes here within the NOP, things have been on

4 hold. But, just so you know, I am still carrying

5 that torch for you and for everyone else.

6 MS. SONNABEND: I understand and we

7 just have to keep pushing. I want to especially

8 thank you for my ability to now go farm and not

9 have to stay here and listen to the whole

10 webinar.

11 MS. BEHAR: We give you permission for

12 that, too.

13 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: I also have a question

15 from Ashley.

16 MS. SWAFFAR: Hi Zea.

17 MS. SONNABEND: Hi.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: I've got a question for

19 you on the non-certified handler operation where

20 you talked about, you know, like farmers going to

21 cold storage and just other storage. Do you

22 think there's any risk factors there that we
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1 really should address? Or should we just exempt

2 them all?

3 MS. SONNABEND: No, because as an

4 inspector it's very easily auditable. We have

5 what's called an affidavit that the cold storage

6 operator signs. And they have to have a

7 designated organic area within it, and only keep

8 organic products in there. And yes, it's fairly

9 easily auditable. And if it came up in

10 inspection that there might be a problem, we

11 could always go visit. The inspector could visit

12 each storage facility.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Any other questions for

14 Zea? So Zea, this is Tom. I also have a

15 question on food operations. Two questions, or a

16 question and a statement really.

17 So the first question is, do you think

18 it's an unreasonable burden to require small

19 farmers to have a label on their products being

20 sent to the third-party storage that specifies

21 what's organic, who certified it as organic, and

22 who they are?
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1 MS. SONNABEND: Yes. I mean right now

2 we only, we have to label things of course, but

3 bin tag labels for instance only say organic, and

4 the name of the farm, and what the product is. 

5 We don't have to say who certifies it or who's

6 going to handle it later because it's us. The

7 name of the firm is already the handler.

8 And then the size of the bin tag, you

9 know, then you'd have to design it like a

10 professional label and CCOF would have to approve

11 it, or you know, whoever certify it. It's a

12 pain.

13 And one other thing to that is

14 sometimes when a farmer puts it into storage,

15 they don't know who's going to handle it. If I

16 have apples that aren't sold yet, and I might

17 send them out for juice or packing, I don't know

18 who's handling it.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: The name wouldn't be the

20 future handler. The name would be the last

21 handler, which in this case would be your

22 operation in your example.
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1 MS. SONNABEND: Oh, well that's not

2 clear from the proposal.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: So any future labeling

4 of that certified product would then need to be a

5 certified operation in and of itself with

6 labeling and expiration?

7 MS. SONNABEND: Yes.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: And then one other

9 comment I did have on this, and we'll need to go

10 back and look further, cites a plan to talk about

11 at the meeting, but I don't know if the way we

12 wrote our guidance if it would affect third13 party warehousing. Because I think we mostly

14 would mostly direct it toward the sale of

15 products.

16 So a third-party warehouse itself, in

17 the warehousing activities is not, you know,

18 involved in sales, unless you are selling to that

19 warehouse, which is a different situation. But

20 if you're just contacting for the storage

21 situation, I don't know if that was covered under

22 ours and I would need to go back and read it in
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1 detail for --.

2 MS. SONNABEND: It's very vague. I

3 mean it's, it could be or it couldn't be. It's

4 not written clear enough for that in my opinion.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Any other questions for

6 Zea? Zea, thank you very much for your time and

7 go enjoy farming.

8 MS. SONNABEND: All right. Thank you.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next we have Guernina

10 Hamza. I haven't seen her on, so Guernina going

11 once, going twice, all right. Up next we have

12 Brian Filipowich followed by Donald Lusk, who we

13 also haven't seen. So Donald, if you're there,

14 can you send a message in to us with your phone

15 number? After Donald, we have David Zuckerman. 

16 Brian, if you could start with your name and

17 affiliation for the record.

18 MR. FILIPOWICH: Yes. You can hear

19 me?

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can.

21 MR. FILIPOWICH: Hi. I'm Brian

22 Filipowich. I'm commenting from the Aquaponic
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1 and Hydroponic Organic Coalition. I'm also the

2 Aquaponics Association.

3 The organic label is ultimately about

4 empowering consumers to find products that match

5 their values, means that a consumer doesn't have

6 to walk into a grocery store and spend an hour

7 researching every head of lettuce they buy, like

8 where it came from.

9 So then the question is, what are

10 these values that consumers care about that they

11 want to see in the organic label? And if you

12 look at them, you will find that aquaponics and

13 hydroponics can meet all these things that

14 consumers care about.

15 The first is that there's --

16 aquaponics and hydroponics grow produce without

17 synthetic pesticides or fertilizers. They are

18 also very good at cycling resources and being

19 very efficient with resource use, so they're very

20 sustainable.

21 And thirdly, production that relies on

22 biological systems and robust microbiology. 
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1 Consumers want to know that their produce has

2 been grown in the same way that it's been grown

3 since the dawn of time, rather than in some

4 sterile environment.

5 So Aquaponics and Hydroponics mesh all

6 these things that the consumers want in their

7 produce when they see that label.

8 Now we approach a time in development

9 of the organic program in which there's a big

10 supply shortage. There's many places in our

11 country where they don't have access to much or a

12 large variety or affordable organic produce.

13 So according to the laws of supply and

14 demand, there should be investors and growers

15 rushing in to meet this supply shortage. Why

16 aren't they?

17 For soil growers, it's because they

18 have to go three years leaving their fields

19 fallow. So you can't just start growing new

20 organic crops.

21 For aquaponic and hydroponic growers,

22 it's this indecision about whether they will
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1 retain the organic eligibility because the

2 organic price premium is so important in business

3 decisions, and brings people into the market.

4 So if the NOSB is able to send a clear

5 signal that aquaponics and hydroponics remain

6 eligible for organic certification, we'll see

7 resources flood into aquaponic and hydroponic

8 growing. And this will be a benefit for

9 everybody.

10 It will be a benefit for sustainable

11 growers. These are the people that are trying to

12 make the changes we need in our agricultural

13 system to save our planet. They will gain

14 financial viability, access to more resources,

15 skilled labor and technical advancements.

16 Consumers will see more and more

17 affordable organic produce. The environment will

18 benefit because aquaponic and hydroponic systems

19 are constructed as closed-loop systems with

20 minimal to no agricultural runoff, and minimal

21 water and resource use.

22 And finally, the economy will benefit
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1 because aquaponic and hydroponic systems, they

2 create controlled environment, year-round jobs,

3 even in urban areas and drought-stricken areas. 

4 So everyone benefits from organic aquaponic and

5 hydroponic. That concludes.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you Brian. Any

7 questions for Brian? Being none, thank you Brian

8 for your time. Up next I have Donald Lusk

9 followed by David Zuckerman and then Nicole

10 Dehne. Donald Lusk, are you here?

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Tom, I don't see him

12 in the list. There was an area code that, his

13 area code, but I guess it's not him.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Donald going once,

15 Donald going twice. All right. We're moving on

16 to David Zuckerman. David, are you here?

17 MR. ZUCKERMAN: I am here. Can you

18 hear me?

19 MR. CHAPMAN: I can. Hold on one

20 second David. David, we'll go with you next,

21 followed by Nicole Dehne, and then Jackie

22 DeMinter after that. David, if you could start
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1 with your name and affiliation for the record.

2 MR. ZUCKERMAN: Sure. My name is

3 David Zuckerman. I'm a certified organic farmer. 

4 I'm also the Lieutenant Governor of Vermont with 

5 many friendly organic communities across Vermont

6 and elsewhere.

7 Thank you for taking the time to

8 listen to many of us with our thoughts and

9 concerns. My comments are related to the

10 hydroponic issues that was actually just recently

11 spoken to you by Brian.

12 In general, by the way I would also

13 state that I don't grow crops that are in

14 competition right now with hydroponics or even

15 about my individual business in any significant

16 way. 

17 But I will say as Lieutenant Governor,

18 I recognize that consumer confidence in the

19 product and product accuracy in labeling is

20 critically important. In Vermont, we have

21 experienced that with maple syrup and other

22 products where the consumer possession of the
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1 product and the label does create value, and

2 that's critically important to organics as well.

3 I am frankly concerned that

4 hydroponics are part of the organic labeling

5 system at this time, and I would like to see it

6 be discontinued.

7 Because Brian, one of the things he

8 mentioned, was production since the dawn of time,

9 production of vegetables has not been done

10 hydroponically since the dawn of time. 

11 Vegetables have been soil-based, and organic

12 production fundamentally is soil-based. We need

13 this production as building the soil, and

14 building it healthier for the future.

15 What people think organic means and

16 what people want it to mean are very important. 

17 There is 2016 Consumer Reports perception survey

18 on words like natural and organic. And

19 throughout, it was clear that what people wanted

20 was clearly more; more strict and more clear, not

21 more broad.

22 I couldn't find a survey question
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1 specifically that said, do you think organic

2 means grown in soil, or should it be grown in

3 soil. So I don't know the answer of the consumer

4 perception. But with my customers, I can

5 certainly hazard to guess that they clearly

6 expect it to be grown in soil.

7 And what organic is about is building

8 the soil and making it healthier. That's why we

9 rotate crops, we plant cover crops, and we test

10 our soils for soil health issues. But this

11 includes in depth microbes; all the different

12 interactions in the soil and the associated

13 relationships with the plants.

14 And while we all do want organics to

15 be more accessible to more people, as Brian

16 states, the way to make it more accessible is

17 about a better economic justice system. And

18 that's not really the purview of obviously this

19 committee.

20 But what we should not be doing is

21 expanding production or reducing costs to the

22 consumer by watering down the standards. And I
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1 do mean double entendre there.

2 Strong standards are the key to the

3 integrity of organic products. That's what will

4 build the consumer demand which will then have

5 more farmers meet that demand and expand

6 interest. We're not leading an immediate

7 gratification society. We need to change

8 accordingly.

9 In closing, as an elected official and

10 a realistic organic farmer, I want to paint the

11 following parallel. Organic farming without soil

12 is like democracy without people. Thank you very

13 much.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

15 questions for David? I see Harriet.

16 MS. BEHAR: Hello David. There's a

17 lot of perception that consumers only care about

18 the inputs used on organics. That they buy

19 organic produce just because they believe there's

20 no pesticide residues. I personally don't

21 believe that. I think that they care more about

22 the greater ecosystem. Can you speak to that a
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1 little?

2 MR. ZUCKERMAN: Well, I don't have

3 statistics to speak to that, but I would

4 certainly be able to indicate through my CSA and

5 the customers that I have at the farmers market,

6 you know, well over 1,000 to 2,000 people between

7 those two, that the inputs are clearly one piece

8 of it.

9 But there's no doubt in my mind that

10 individual health, they perceive it as healthier. 

11 Now one could argue hydroponics may meet that

12 criteria. But I do think many also consider

13 organic better for water quality in terms of the

14 streams and rivers. And if we have more organic

15 being done through hydroponics at a lower cost,

16 we can actually have more conventional

17 agriculture on the lands next to rivers and

18 streams.

19 So our consumers, certainly in

20 Vermont, are pleased to see water quality

21 improvements through organic agriculture which I

22 think goes to that broader message that you were
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1 just asking about in terms of taking beyond

2 themselves, but to what is the long-term food

3 production system in terms of soil health,

4 climate.

5 I happen to raise chicken and pigs,

6 which means I've also pastured to organic

7 standards and beyond organic standards according

8 to some animals that are raised organically out

9 there without very much access to pasture. But

10 with rotational grazing, we're also sequestering

11 carbon.

12 And so many consumers are seeing

13 organic as a far more holistic production system

14 than just what the inputs are and what the

15 product produced is.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any other

17 questions for David? David, I have a question

18 for you. You kept using the term hydroponics and

19 talked a little bit about aquaponics, but there's

20 a spectrum between in-ground and, you know, fully

21 listed hydroponic operations. Where do you think

22 the line is appropriately drawn?
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1 MR. ZUCKERMAN: I'm not sure I know

2 the distinction you've just indicated because I

3 don't produce using any of those methods, so I'm

4 not an expert in them. So if you could either

5 give me a little more clarity on what the

6 differences are, I could tell you where it would

7 fall.

8 But in general, I think it should be,

9 production should be soil-based. And so if

10 there's hydroponics and aquaponics, whether it's

11 one of those with fish and so forth, then, you

12 know, that's still -- neither of those are soil13 based as far as I understand it. And if I'm

14 mistaken, please understand that I may be.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: There's also a spectrum

16 of container-style production that's grown in

17 containers with what's possibly known as potting

18 soil?

19 MR. ZUCKERMAN: Well, I think if it's 

20 better, geology matters, and again I don't know

21 the expert there, but if you're growing in

22 compost and soil and that soil is getting turned
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1 back in and then new soil is used, and you're

2 again part of a soil-based medium that is

3 potentially recycled into, you know, a compost

4 facility or broader soil arenas.

5 Then we are also taking soil from

6 those places to grow in pots to use better water

7 management, then I think that's reasonable. But

8 if there isn't soil and all of the associated

9 microbes and complexity affiliated, I would lean

10 towards staying more strict than going more

11 loosely.

12 I just don't think that we should

13 loosen standards to meet ancillary demand around

14 organic. We should work to bring more people to

15 the high quality standard, the holistic standard

16 that organic was originally intended to be, even

17 before there was a national standard.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: I don't see any other

19 questions at this time, so thank you for your

20 comments.

21 MR. ZUCKERMAN: Thank you.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Next up we have Nicole
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1 Dehne followed by Jackie DeMinter, and then

2 Lillie Snow. Nicole, are you here?

3 MS. DEHNE: Yes, can you guys hear me?

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. Can you

5 start with your name and affiliation for the

6 record.

7 MS. DEHNE: Absolutely. So hello. My

8 name is Nicole Dehne. I'm the Certification

9 Director for Vermont Organic Farmers. That's

10 NOLA Vermont's USDA accredited certification

11 program. We currently certify over 700 organic

12 farmers and processors in Vermont.

13 And I appreciate the opportunity to

14 comment on a few issues that are critical to our

15 certified producers today, and I want to

16 acknowledge and thank Board members for their

17 hard work and dedication being on the NOC.

18 So to start, regarding the organic

19 seed guidance, the OS supports NOC's

20 recommendation clarifying the NOC guidance

21 document 5029. However, we do not support the

22 additional record-keeping requirement that asks
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1 producers to justify the use of non-organic seed

2 for each variety on the list.

3 This language we feel is too

4 prescriptive and is not a sound and sensible

5 approach. In addition, we do not agree that the

6 regulations should include language that requires

7 full compliance of 205, 204A, and it doesn't seem

8 fair to burden the farmer with sourcing organic

9 seed and planting staff that may not exist. We

10 suggest including language that requires

11 continual improvement without requiring full

12 compliance.

13 In regards to hydroponics, as you just

14 heard, our certified organic producers feel very

15 strongly that hydroponic, aeroponic, and

16 aquaponic should not be labeled as organic.

17 Our preferred approach is to require

18 that organic crops are grown in the ground while

19 exempting production sold in pots like herbs and

20 bedding plants.

21 However we appreciate the work and the 

22 questions posed in the NOC discussion document
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1 regarding field and greenhouse container

2 production, and we strongly agree that these

3 issues need to be addressed.

4 As far as artificial light, there

5 would be no significant impact to Vermont

6 producers if the standards required all natural

7 lighting. In fact, we believe that it's against

8 the principles of organic production to use

9 artificial light in lieu of a renewable resource,

10 the sun.

11 In addition, the use of artificial

12 light seems counter to the principles that

13 require livestock to have daily access to direct

14 sunlight. So we feel that if natural light is

15 important for animal health, then we should

16 acknowledge that it's also important for the

17 production of healthy plants.

18 As far as synthetic mulches, producers

19 who use synthetic mulch in outside production

20 areas, we feel they should be required to

21 implement practices that would create habitat for

22 wildlife and promote biodiversity. So covering
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1 acres of fields with synthetic mulch, we feel

2 that's going to have a negative impact on soil

3 and the surrounding natural environment.

4 As far as crop residues and

5 substrates, organic producers should be held

6 responsible for recycling crop residues and

7 substrates. In addition, we think that producers

8 should be required to recycle plastic or non9 compostable containers, and all certified

10 producers should be required to address the use

11 of plastic on the farm. I really liked the

12 comments from the biodegradable mulch folks in

13 some of those pictures.

14 And then as far as clarifying

15 emergency for synthetic parasiticide usage, we

16 feel that the NOC did a great job on that

17 proposal, and it's going to help us with

18 enforcing those regulations consistently.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Nicole. Any

20 questions for Nicole? I don't see any questions

21 for Nicole. Thank you very much for your

22 comment.
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1 MS. DEHNE: Yep. Thank you.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next we have Jackie

3 DeMinter followed by Lillie Snow, and then Joel

4 Kelly. Lillie, I have not seen on the list, so

5 if you're here, can you text us your phone number

6 in the chat. And Jackie, are you here? Jackie,

7 I've got you muted, hold on. Jackie are you

8 unmuted now?

9 MS. DeMINTER: I believe I'm unmuted. 

10 Can you hear me?

11 MR. CHAPMAN: You are unmuted. 

12 Jackie, could you start with your name and

13 affiliation for the record.

14 MS. DeMINTER: Good afternoon. My

15 name is Jackie DeMinter. I am a Certification

16 Policy Manager at MOSA. We certify approximately

17 2,000 operations throughout the United States

18 including dairy, livestock operations and about

19 1,700 certified per crop.

20 My comments will address clarifying

21 emergency for use of synthetic parasiticides and

22 strengthening feed guidance. Thank you for the
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1 opportunity to comment on those topics. The

2 NOSB's position to encourage and embrace growth

3 of the organic industry and to strengthen the

4 organic field, we appreciate and encourage a

5 patient process for coming to the right final

6 recommendation.

7 We support the general direction of

8 the NOSB to further define parameters for custom

9 management plans on organic operations. The

10 proposal gets at the right intent, but suggested

11 text and location in the current rule had us

12 recommending that this be further discussed.

13 As certifiers, we need real language

14 that's enforceable and clear. Guidance would

15 probably present the most flexibility for

16 examples in considerations in different

17 circumstances, but that idea aside, our written

18 comments offer alternate language and placements

19 in the rule.

20 We think that a new proposed rule

21 would be better located in CFI 238D, where the

22 allowance fee of such medication is located,
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1 known preventive practices and better married

2 biologics are inadequate to prevent sickness. 

3 We are hopeful that the OLPP Rule will

4 become a factor and it will immediately have

5 strengthened the attention to parasite management

6 plan. Our intention was to better assess the

7 plan for prevention already in place, emergency

8 measures planned in the event of an outbreak, and

9 why such a situation may arise.

10 In our experience, an emergency would

11 occur when one or more animals are going to die,

12 or be permanently damaged, or going to spread

13 their parasites to more livestock if they do not

14 receive treatment right away.

15 We have to be sure that adequate

16 prevention methods are built in to the organic

17 management system. But even with these best

18 measures in place, parasites are adaptive and

19 they can appear quickly.

20 On the flip-side, we would not

21 consider regular outbreaks as a result of

22 inadequate pasture management to be an emergency. 
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1 We appreciate that the proposed approach could

2 curtail regular, routine use of parasiticides due

3 to inadequate management activity.

4 Moving on to the proposal for

5 strengthening feed guidance, we've provided

6 detailed comments in the Spring and have again

7 this Fall. We appreciate and support the

8 Committee's efforts to strengthen the organic

9 feed guidance.

10 However, we do have some concerns

11 about certifier enforceability impracticality.

12 For example, having full compliance with organic

13 food usage seems impractical for some growers,

14 and requiring the farmer to prevent and avoid

15 contamination from the stated methods seems as if

16 it would be particularly challenging to enforce. 

17 Our written comments outline concerns and

18 questions, and offer alternate language in some

19 cases.

20 Thank you for your work on these

21 challenging and precedent-setting topics.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jackie. Any
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1 questions for Jackie? I see Ashley.

2 MS. SWAFFAR: Hi Jackie. Thank you

3 for your comments. You were talking so quickly,

4 I was trying to take notes. Did you feel that

5 guidance would be better for emergency --

6 defining emergency use for parasiticides?

7 MS. DeMINTER: I think guidance would

8 provide the most flexibility for such a robust,

9 you know, step-up type program the NOSB is

10 talking about. We talked about this in the

11 Spring, too, and -- you know, guidance was one

12 idea, and you know obviously of the proposal

13 here. And if I remember seeing that you guys had

14 put that through. So setting aside the idea of

15 guidance, we are proposing alternate rule

16 placement and language for your consideration.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you. You know how

18 I feel about guidance.

19 MS. DeMINTER: I do.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, Harriet.

21 MS. BEHAR: Hi Jackie.

22 MS. DeMINTER: Hi Harriet.
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1 MS. BEHAR: Also what I wanted to just

2 bring up about guidance versus rule. And part of

3 that is also providing the operator somewhat of a

4 road map so they understand. Guidance is kind of

5 more for the certification wonks. It's very rare

6 for an operator to actually try to figure out

7 what is the regulation they have to follow by

8 going and looking at guidance.

9 So that was part of the thought of

10 putting it in the rules so people could see. But 

11 I've been a little bit drowning in hydroponic

12 comments, but I will make sure that I get to

13 yours when I look at the emergency treatments.

14 MS. DeMINTER: If you have any

15 questions about our suggestions or ideas about

16 location or placement in the rules, feel free to

17 contact me.

18 MS. BEHAR: Okie dokie.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you very

20 much.

21 MS. DeMINTER: Thank you very much.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: I don't see any other
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1 questions at this time. Up next we have Lillie

2 Snow, followed by Joel Kelly, followed by --

3 sorry if I butcher this -- Joszhe -- J-O-S-Z-H-E

4 -- Tosa. Lillie Snow, are you on the line? I

5 don't see your phone number.

6 MS. ARSENAULT: I'm not finding Lillie

7 either, Tom.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. Lillie going

9 once, going twice. Joel Kelly. Joel Kelly, are

10 you here? I'm not seeing Joel on the list.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: No, I don't see Joel

12 either.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Joel going once, going

14 twice. All right. Joszhe -- J-O-S-Z-H-E, sorry

15 again for butchering your name -- are you on the

16 line? I'm also not seeing your phone number. 

17 All right. Going once, going twice. Up next, and

18 I --

19 (Telephonic interference.)

20 MS. ARSENAULT: Can everybody hear me

21 okay?

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes.
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: We're getting some

2 feedback.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: We're getting feedback.

4 (Simultaneous speaking.)

5 MS. ARSENAULT: Is that better?

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, that solved the

7 problem. All right. If you'll give me one

8 second, I'll announce the next people. So after -

9 -

10 (Telephonic interference.)

11 MS. ARSENAULT: If you could, if

12 you're on your computer and on the phone, make

13 sure your speakers on your computer are off. 

14 That's generally how we end up with feedback like

15 that.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: So after Alexis, we have

17 Cody Kiroff and Amalie Lipstreu. And Alexis, if

18 you could begin with your name and affiliation

19 for the record. Alexis, are you there?

20 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Yes, I'm going to

21 turn you off and then begin.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay.
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1 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Hi, I'm Alexis

2 Baden-Mayer, the Political Director of the

3 Organic Consumers Association. OCA is the

4 largest network of organic consumers. We reach

5 400,000 people via email each week, and connect

6 with millions each day via social media. Thank

7 you to the NOSB and the National Organic Program

8 for providing this online public comment

9 opportunity.

10 I am here today to speak in favor of

11 the Crops Subcommittee proposal for hydroponic

12 and container growing recommendations with the

13 comment that sunlight and fresh air should be

14 required.

15 This week I submitted 15,000

16 signatures on a petition in support of the

17 proposal. That petition continues to gather

18 signatures and we'll update you in Jacksonville

19 on the final numbers.

20 Health currently is the number one

21 reason why people buy organic foods. So our

22 members were alarmed to learn that hydroponic
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1 greens can cause high concentrations of nitrate,

2 which can be toxic and have been linked to

3 stomach cancer.

4 Health drives most sales of organic

5 foods. What a significant percentage of organic

6 consumers, especially among the hard-core, cite

7 healthy environment as one of the reasons they

8 buy organic.

9 A 2016 Pew Research Center study found 

10 that among the people who say most or some of the

11 food they eat is organic, 88 percent said they

12 ate organic to get healthier food, and 48 percent

13 of those said they ate organic to help the

14 environment as well.

15 Our team at the Organic Consumers

16 Association is particularly passionate about the

17 potential of organic agriculture to reverse

18 climate change. In 2014, we formed an

19 international coalition to advocate for this

20 cause. The coalition, Regeneration

21 International, is working to increase

22 participation in the Four for 1,000 global
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1 initiative to increase carbon sequestration in

2 soils for food security and climate.

3 So far this global agreement has been

4 signed by 37 countries, and it's humanity's best

5 hope of drawing excess carbon, carbon dioxide,

6 from the atmosphere to get CO2 levels back down

7 below the dangerous tipping point of 350 parts

8 per million.

9 We promote organic agriculture as the

10 best way to do this. But that argument doesn't

11 work if you're talking about so-called organic

12 production practices that don't use soil.

13 And, in fact, as the crops committee

14 pointed out in its proposal, the energy use and

15 the consequences of carbon footprint of indoor

16 soilless growing systems is enormous.

17 Indoor lettuce is a carbon sasquatch. 

18 That's how to Tamar Haspel, the Washington Post

19 food columnist put it.

20 The Organic Consumers Association

21 strongly supports the 2010 NOSB recommendation on

22 production standards for terrestrial plants in
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1 containers and enclosures, greenhouses.

2 We are very glad that the crop

3 subcommittee continues to support the reasoning

4 of that recommendation.

5 I'll close by reading from that

6 recommendation, quote, the organic farming method

7 derives its name from the practice of maintaining

8 or improving the organic matter, carbon

9 containing content of the farm soil through

10 various methods and practices.

11 I urge the entire NOSB to hold true to

12 this most important organic principle and approve

13 the crop subcommittee's recommendation with the

14 caveat that soil, per se, sunlight and fresh air

15 to be included.

16 Thank you.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Any questions from the

18 Board?

19 Ashley, I see you have a question.

20 MS. SWAFFAR: Hi, I actually want to

21 thank you for your comment.

22 I didn't quite get everything you
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1 said, though. But, first, you made a statement

2 that for the hydroponic lettuce has higher, did

3 you say, nitrates when it was growing? Is that

4 what you said?

5 MS. BADEN-MAYER: No, that's actually

6 from the subcommittee's proposal. I had not

7 heard of that before I read the subcommittee's

8 proposal.

9 But then I looked it up and,

10 apparently, there was an expose in the U.K. where

11 hydroponic greens were tested for nitrates

12 because they have a limit on the amount of

13 nitrates that can be in food, maybe greens

14 specifically in the U.K.

15 And they found that hydroponically

16 grown greens had levels of nitrate above that

17 limit. And so that's how people became aware of

18 this problem. Yes.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley, do you have a

20 follow up or is that --

21 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes, I do. Was that in

22 organic or was that conventional? Do you, I
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1 mean, do you know?

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Hold on.

3 MS. BADEN-MAYER: I believe that was

4 conventional hydroponics that had the highest

5 levels of nitrate. And I don't think they had

6 organic in their study when this happened.

7 But it's certainly something that, you

8 know, as the crop subcommittee proposal points

9 out, this is something that happens because the

10 nitrogen fertilizer is in liquid form. And so,

11 the plant takes it up very quickly and it can

12 accumulate dangerous levels of nitrate in that

13 way.

14 So, it could happen in a so-called

15 organic hydroponic system that had liquid

16 nitrogen fertilizer.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay --

18 MS. SWAFFAR: I just want to follow

19 up.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, yes, we'll go for

21 one more.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes, I just want to
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1 point out that you said it could happen. There's

2 no research saying that because those were all in

3 the conventional hydroponic systems, not organic

4 systems? That's all I have.

5 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Yes, I would love to

6 have the data, you know, what we're considering

7 an organic hydroponic system should check their

8 nitrate levels.

9 But, you know, this is something that

10 wouldn't be monitored under the current

11 regulations.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, next I have Asa,

13 then Steve, then Sue. Asa?

14 PARTICIPANT: With all due respect,

15 may I chime in just for a brief second on a

16 question for that last speaker?

17 MR. CHAPMAN: No, no, sir. We don't

18 take any questions from the public, only from the

19 Board.

20 PARTICIPANT: Thank you very much.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa?

22 MR. BRADMAN: Yes, one quick thing. 
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1 I mean, I've been agonizing over these issues and

2 I've talked to many people in certainly at least

3 in California and many people in different

4 strata.

5 And pretty much everyone on the

6 consumer side is really comfortable with

7 hydroponic and non-soil systems, you know, if you

8 look at it online.

9 So, I'm curious, you know, it sounds

10 like your membership differs from that, certainly

11 bigger than the sample I have. But I'd like to

12 have more comment on that.

13 The second thing is about the energy

14 inputs related to lettuce. I mean, I think

15 that's, you know, an interesting issue and really

16 important.

17 What it leads to, though, and this is

18 where I'm kind of concerned is that, essentially,

19 what you're saying is that we should calculate

20 the carbon footprint of every product.

21 So, you know, for importing cotton

22 from India or, you know, berries from South
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1 America or hydroponic production in Arizona or,

2 you know, something grown in California, it kind

3 of leads to a trend that, you know, it seems

4 like, I mean, that's the ultimate implication of

5 what you're saying.

6 So, I was wondering if you want to

7 comment on that? And, certainly, I would

8 actually support calculating the carbon footprint

9 of every product, you know, in really every arena

10 so we understand that.

11 But I think there's an implication

12 that goes much beyond just the soil, you know,

13 non-soil debate.

14 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Well, soil is

15 essential, actually, to this debate, it's central

16 because, conventional agriculture, when you total

17 up every aspect of the supply chain starting with

18 cutting down trees to -- et cetera.

19 Then all the way through to global

20 transportation, refrigeration, et cetera.

21 About 57 percent of the global

22 greenhouse gas emissions come from our global
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1 food system.

2 Now, organic is the only aspect of the

3 global food system that's reversing that trend

4 through having the capacity to suppress the

5 carbon in the soil.

6 And conventional agriculture can't do

7 that. It can reduce soil erosion, soil loss. It

8 can reduce emissions from conventional

9 agriculture, but it can't start to reverse that

10 trend and actually draw carbon out of the

11 atmosphere and trap it in the soil. Only

12 regenerative, organic agriculture processes can

13 do that.

14 And so, if we promote, you know, my

15 organization promotes organic agriculture on a

16 climate change position. But we can't do that if

17 we're doing this carbon sasquatch lettuce, you

18 know, growing indoors using all artificial energy

19 inputs.

20 You know, they even blend natural gas

21 in some hydroponic systems to pump carbon dioxide

22 into the indoor environment.
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1 So, it's all, you know, and they have

2 to, of course, replace the energy of the sun with

3 artificial light. It's no wonder that this is

4 the most energy intensive way to produce food

5 possible.

6 So, yes, we're very opposed to that

7 type of system. You know, you asked sort of the

8 side question about whether I think that we

9 should calculate the carbon footprint of our

10 entire food system. And, of course, many people

11 have.

12 I don't know if that fits into the

13 organic standard, but I think that, you know,

14 intuitively, when the organic law was passed in

15 1990 before we were calculating carbon footprint

16 in agriculture the way we are today, I believe,

17 you know, the public is more aware.

18 There is this intuitive understanding

19 of soil and soil health as essential to organic.

20 And that's just as good of a reason to approve

21 organic systems.

22 MR. BRADMAN: Yes, and I -- let's
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1 give me one extra question in there.

2 I totally understand, okay, but what

3 I'm asking about is the product specific carbon

4 footprint. And, I guess that's just something

5 that's maybe more, you know, maybe it's a little

6 more on the philosophy end.

7 But if we're going to rate products

8 and rate production system, I just think it's

9 important to really look both at the detail level

10 and at the general level.

11 And I totally understand what you're

12 saying about, you know, soil sequestration of

13 carbon and the potential benefits of that. I

14 mean, I think, you know, I'm sure all of us are

15 on board with that.

16 MS. BADEN-MAYER: And to be real clear

17 that, you know, while I used that phrase lettuce

18 is a -- indoor lettuce is a carbon sasquatch, it

19 wasn't about lettuce, it just happened to be that

20 they studied lettuce because they, you know, you

21 have to study something specific and there aren't

22 that many studies done on this.
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1 So, I don't think that, you know, like

2 looking at a soil system versus a soilless

3 system, obviously, the soil system, especially an

4 organic soil system has the capacity to reverse

5 that kind of impact with carbon sequestration.

6 Whereas, the soilless system with all

7 of this energy intensive input is always going to

8 be a carbon sasquatch. It doesn't matter if it's

9 lettuce or if it's something else. It's --

10 that's the whole system is obviously a carbon

11 bomb.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. I think I have

13 Steve, then Sue. Ask your question, Steve.

14 MR. ELA: Yes, I guess my question

15 comes to, we had statements to the Board and on

16 the Board, that the perception, you know, of

17 organic is that there is this no pesticides and

18 no GMOs and that's really to most consumers what

19 is important, you know, for being organic.

20 And that, you know, you said that 88

21 percent of your consumers went to 44 percent want

22 to help the environment.
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1 And we certainly heard claims or

2 statements that hydroponic or container grown

3 systems help the environment because they use

4 less water, they have less runoff and some of

5 these other things.

6 But you're talking about the soil, the

7 carbon sequestration, but can you just say from

8 your organization standpoint or your consumer

9 surveys a little more about, you know, that 44

10 percent wanting to help the environment, what

11 that -- could you flesh that out a little more?

12 It seems that we're at this debate of,

13 you know, what does organic mean to the

14 consumers? You know, if you just said, no, from

15 this prospective, most consumers, they just want,

16 you know, they don't really care about the

17 hydroponic issues.

18 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Well, we didn't

19 conduct this study ourselves, it was the Pew

20 Research Center. The 2016 Pew Research Center

21 study on attitudes towards food amongst consumers

22 on a wide range of issues.
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1 So, organic was one piece of that. 

2 And, in their published report, they didn't break

3 it down any further than that. They said, 88

4 percent said they ate organic to get healthier

5 food and 48 percent of those said they ate

6 organic to help the environment as well.

7 So, I mean, I'll fully admit that

8 health is the number one driver for consumers

9 learning about and getting to access organic

10 food.

11 But once they're doing it, and you

12 learn that there are environmental benefits as

13 well, I think that could only make you more

14 committed to the cause of organic.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. And up next

16 I have a question from Sue.

17 MS. BAIRD: Yes, hi, I'm really -- I

18 appreciate your comments. I am a little

19 concerned that you have used a study for

20 conventional hydroponics to assert that organic

21 hydroponics are full of nitrates.

22 It's my understanding, talking and
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1 reading this hydroponics both organic and non2 organic because that is the key differentiation

3 between the organic hydroponic production and

4 conventional hydroponic production.

5 Conventional is, in fact, a large

6 commercial survey is what a lot -- it's all

7 implicated. They use urea in the medium, they

8 use nitrate in the medium, and it's all about

9 adding various nitrates or just nitrogen

10 production systems of import -- in nitrates in

11 their systems.

12 Organic hydroponic consultant assert

13 that they are using biologically safe input that

14 does not result in the nitrates or very low

15 additions of nitrates.

16 So, could we address that and then

17 I'll do one follow up question, is that you're

18 saying, at least to me, it seems to imply that

19 you had stated that organic hydroponics always

20 uses a lot of artificial light.

21 And yet, people that I've seen and

22 heard of hydroponics, both conventional and
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1 organic, many of them, I would say, a majority of

2 those that I visit are being produced in

3 greenhouses which allows the natural light to

4 come through the greenhouses.

5 So, two questions, please.

6 MS. BADEN-MAYER: So, the nitrate

7 issues are covered very well in the subcommittee

8 proposal. But I'll just read one piece of that.

9 It says, in addition to bypassing

10 naturally occurring co-evolved relationships

11 between plant roots and the many functional trait

12 types of rhizospheric organisms, nutrient bathing

13 is an unbuffered system.

14 For example, nutrient solutions

15 contain high concentrations of nitrate which

16 plants can accumulate beyond their requirements

17 storing excess nitrate in leaf and root vacuoles.

18 This is particularly problematic for

19 some species like spinach and chard. Nitrate is

20 toxic in food, has been linked to stomach cancer

21 and can kill livestock.

22 So, you know, that's all from the
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1 subcommittee proposal. And, as I mentioned, I

2 did look that up to verify that.

3 So, you know, maybe this proposal

4 needs to have something about testing for nitrate

5 levels. But, you know, their proposal tries to

6 remedy it by requiring more of a soil-like

7 growing medium and limiting the liquid

8 fertilizer.

9 MS. BAIRD: Thank you, I appreciate

10 that.

11 Again, my understanding is that

12 organic hydroponics are not using nitrate

13 additions. If -- unless it would be lettuces,

14 and some of them are using less than 20 percent

15 nitrates, which is also allowed currently in soil

16 production.

17 They're not -- they're using a

18 biological base input. That's what I'm

19 understanding.

20 Could you address my question about

21 using artificial light in hydroponics as opposed

22 to using artificial light in regular soil-based
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1 greenhouses, please?

2 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Yes, we think that

3 sunlight is best, I mean, just to state it most

4 simply. And it would be great to have a

5 requirement in here for sunlight for these

6 growing systems.

7 MS. BAIRD: But it should be written in

8 for strictly the hydroponics but not soil-based? 

9 It seems to me that that almost contradicts

10 requiring more one type of production than the

11 other.

12 MS. BADEN-MAYER: Not at all, I don't

13 think that the soil-based systems would have any

14 trouble meeting that sunlight requirement. So,

15 sure, it could be a requirement for everybody.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you Board

17 Members for your questions. And thank you,

18 Alexis, for your time.

19 And we're going to have to move on

20 down the list at this time, but we appreciate the

21 good dialogue there.

22 So, up next I have Cody Kiroff, a call
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1 by Amalie Lipstreu and then up after Amalie,

2 James Sbarra.

3 Cody, are you here? We are not

4 showing you on the list. All right, Cody, going

5 once, going twice.

6 Amalie, you are up.

7 MS. LIPSTREU: Can you hear me okay?

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. And let's

9 get started with you name and affiliation for the

10 record.

11 MS. LIPSTREU: I'm Amalie Lipstreu of

12 the Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association. 

13 And I'll speak to two issues this afternoon.

14 And the first is organic imports. Our

15 farmers have been feeling the effects of the

16 rising imports long before Washington placed NOP

17 action.

18 Producers were told their grain was no

19 longer needed, as imported grain surged into the

20 U.S.

21 When domestic products are overlooked

22 in favor of cheaper, and, we now know, fraudulent
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1 imports, the issue is more than the need to

2 increase domestic supply, it's also about efforts

3 to subvert the integrity of the organic industry

4 to meet economic goals.

5 We appreciate NOSB's quick action to

6 move this issue through guidance. We ask for

7 your continued diligence. Please ensure

8 everything that can be done is being done to

9 ensure a level playing field and monitor NOP

10 compliance with the nine recommendations and time

11 lines outlined in the recent audit report of the

12 USDA Office of Inspector General.

13 Oversight improvements cannot happen

14 soon enough for our organic producers who have

15 lost significant income as well as faith in the

16 ability of the NOPs to take swift action.

17 Secondly, the impact of the oil and

18 gas industry on organic farms requires your

19 attention.

20 We face from California to

21 Pennsylvania, Oklahoma to Wisconsin and more, the

22 oil and gas industry is creating negative impacts
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1 on organic farms.

2 We have proposed discrete action the

3 NOSB can take to better understand how organic

4 farmers are uniquely impacted by this industry.

5 Support certifiers that need to

6 provide guidance to operators, and also, that we

7 prevent the loss of certified operations.

8 Farmers like James, whose picture you

9 can see, who has three pipelines crossing the

10 grazing fields of his third-generation dairy

11 farm.

12 In the past year and a half, OEFFA

13 supported James, providing tools in the form of

14 an organic add impact mitigation plan and worked

15 to ensure adoption of the recommendations that

16 continue.

17 Despite the incredible disruptions of

18 his farm soil, animals, and pasture, he has been

19 able to keep in operation, to keep his

20 certification and, importantly, to keep his

21 contract so that he remains on the milk truck and

22 will not be the generation to lose the family
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1 farm.

2 Please consider one or more of the

3 seven actions outlined in our written comments as

4 they move forward on this important issue.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any questions

7 from the Board?

8 (No response)

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Hearing none, thank you

10 very much for your comments.

11 Up next, I have James Sbarra followed

12 by Luke Howard and Erin McQuaig, sorry if I

13 butchered that name or botched it up.

14 James, are you here?

15 MR. SBARRA: I am, yes. You ready?

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. James, can

17 you give us your name and affiliation for the

18 record?

19 MR. SBARRA: Yes, my name's James

20 Sbarra. I am an aquaponic farmer; we've been

21 doing it for five years.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Excellent, go ahead,
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1 James, with your comments.

2 MR. SBARRA: Yes, so the question,

3 what is more important, water or soil? If there

4 is no water, plants cannot uptake nutrients and

5 they wither and die.

6 So, why does it matter if the

7 nutrients are suspended in water or suspended in

8 soil? And the mechanism to make them available

9 to the plant is water. Without water, there is

10 no life.

11 We have proven we can go without soil,

12 and you know you cannot go without water. So,

13 which one is more important?

14 And to judge the aquaponics, it seems

15 like the Board is concerned about food safety. 

16 It seems the area where we either easy to address

17 the difference between a fish tank and plant life

18 and a proper setup systems with fish waste should

19 never come in contact with plants and roots.

20 Instead, that waste is mineralized and

21 released as nutrients into the water, then that

22 water is taken to the plant.
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1 We have never had a food safety issue

2 in five years and we get ourselves tested

3 regularly.

4 And the exemptions, it seems like the

5 review committee is trying to allow some

6 exemptions is in the future needs.

7 For instance, urban spread could be

8 allowed to be soilless. The review board states

9 that's too hard to grow them in soil. Well, why

10 is that? You can definitely grow herbs in soil,

11 there is no logical reason why some plants should

12 be allowed to go soilless while others cannot.

13 And addressing the high nitrates,

14 aquaponic farmers do not rely on adding nitrates

15 as they happen organically from bacteria that

16 convert the ammonia produced by fish into

17 nitrates.

18 This biology exists, it's backed by

19 studies and the fact that the fish have died,

20 without that biology is proof enough.

21 It seems like a big change in soil

22 health. Their document stated that all organic
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1 farmers should get their soil fertility from

2 compost.

3 There are over 3,000 OMRI listed

4 fertilizers. If all organic farmers were getting

5 their nutrients from compost, then why do all

6 these products exist?

7 Not one person against aquaponics has

8 pressed on the topic that we do improve the soil

9 health by adding fish waste to the soil. Using

10 waste as a compost producer.

11 There are so many opinions and not

12 facts in that document. For instance, there is

13 one plant that's different in aquaponic plants,

14 nitrate toxicity, shifting impacts of nutrients.

15 Aquaponics, as I note, ecological

16 complexities and it is --- to all life, energy

17 needs.

18 Are we going to disqualify a farm for

19 using fossil fuels to ship their products to

20 other countries?

21 Should we impose a time limit on

22 tractor use?
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1 Just because, you know, just in

2 creating, say, daylight, use too much energy with

3 tractors, they've being paying their fines in,

4 seems a little crazy.

5 Just in conclusion, we really think a

6 good compromise would be to have a label and that

7 states whether it's aquaponic or field grown. 

8 And if any action is going to be taken that more

9 studies need to be done so that every point and

10 counterpoint has an actual cited study that's

11 relevant to the points at hand.

12 Thank you for your time.

13 MR. ARSENAULT: Tom, maybe you're

14 still on mute or --

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, I was, sorry.

16 James, thank you very much. And that

17 explained why I was trying to interrupt you and

18 you kept going.

19 MR. SBARRA: Sorry.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: No problem, James. 

21 Thank you for your comments.

22 Questions from the Board? I see Steve. 
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1 Steve, you had a question for --

2 MR. ELA: I've Steve --

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Go ahead.

4 MR. ELA: No problem, I was trying to

5 be --

6 Just one quick question on your

7 comment, yes, saying that it makes no difference

8 whether the plant were suspended in water or soil

9 because they're taking up all the nutrients from

10 the water regardless.

11 But, I mean, there's a number of new

12 studies coming out now about the mycorrhizal

13 component of plant roots and that interaction

14 between the soil nutrient solution and the plant

15 root.

16 Could you speak to that as how, you

17 know, how the mycorrhizal interaction is covered

18 in your hydroponic system?

19 MR. SBARRA: Yes, so, again, we are

20 running an aquaponic system. I can't speak for

21 organic hydroponics outside of aquaponics.

22 But, for us, we are a 100 percent
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1 reliant on biology because, like I said, without

2 that, the fish would die from the ammonia

3 toxicity that builds up. That's when the

4 bacteria comes and converts that ammonia to

5 nitrates eventually.

6 In terms of all the studies, I've been

7 talking with, there's been some really cool

8 studies going on with that. I don't think there

9 are any studies for organic hydroponics or

10 aquaponics that show that there is or isn't.

11 What I do know is that, our plants

12 love it and our customers love it and, yes, I

13 really, as I said, without water, there seems to

14 be a very heavy emphasis on soil, for reasons

15 that ignore aquaponics as a method to grow

16 organically.

17 And it just seems like, well, water's

18 a more important factor here because, without

19 water, none would exist. Without water, that

20 fungus isn't going to grow, that bacteria is not

21 going to grow and the plant's not going to grow.

22 So, water seems to be the one thing
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1 that we can't live without in terms of growing. 

2 And, so, why the focus is all of a sudden on soil

3 when water has tons of biology in it already. It

4 might be different biology, it might be the same. 

5 I don't have the study to show either way.

6 But I do think if we're going to make

7 a decision on that, we should actually have those

8 studies so we can make an educated decision.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, James.

10 I am not seeing any questions from the

11 Board at this time, so we'll move on down the

12 list. Thank you for your comments.

13 Up next --

14 MR. SBARRA: Thank you.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: -- I have Luke Howard

16 followed by Erin McQuaig and I don't see you on

17 the line, just sending that message out asking

18 for your phone number.

19 After that, I'm going to butcher this

20 name as well, Abdeljalil, A-B-D-E-L-J-A-L-I-L,

21 Mekkaoui. If you're here, please submit your

22 number as well because we're not seeing you.
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1 And, after that, it's Stanley Edwards. 

2 Stanley, I'm also not seeing you, if you could

3 send us your number.

4 So, up next is Luke. Luke, are you

5 here?

6 MR. HOWARD: I am here. Can you hear

7 me?

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can, Luke. If

9 you could.

10 MR. HOWARD: Sure. Good morning and

11 afternoon. My name is Luke Howard and I am from

12 Blue River Organic Seed.

13 Blue River Organic Seed is an organic

14 seed producer and retailer based in Ames, Iowa. 

15 We focus on organic field corn, soy beans,

16 sorghum sudangrass and alfalfa seed.

17 We have a nationwide dealer network

18 and a product line that can provide organic seeds

19 to low crop farmers in every state.

20 But, before I get started, I just want

21 to say thank to the NOSB members for the time

22 that you commit to serving our organic community. 
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1 Without your hard work and commitment, we would

2 not be as strong of a community as we are.

3 We at Blue River would like to

4 emphasize the need to strengthen the organic seed

5 rule. We believe that the crops committee has

6 made great strides in providing recommendations

7 for strengthening the rule.

8 But it must go further if we're going

9 to protect the integrity of our industry and

10 maintain our consumers' confidence.

11 There are a few points I'd like to

12 make.

13 First, be careful making exceptions on

14 using non-organic seeds. The best intentions

15 never go unpunished. They may actually be used

16 as a path on how to avoid using organic seeds.

17 Next, on farms like variety trials

18 would be a dangerous method of measuring

19 performance on the farm. Unless these are

20 professionally executed and measured in an

21 unbiased approach, the results could equal the

22 opinion.
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1 My final point is, by allowing

2 conventional non-GMO seeds as it currently

3 stands, is an unfair process. Conventional seed

4 does not go through the same testing or protocols

5 that organic seed goes through. Those facilities

6 are not inspected for organic standards and the

7 seed is not held to the same standards that

8 organic seeds are held to.

9 We should be looking at the integrity

10 of all seed used on the organic farms. By using

11 conventional seed, we're allowing a large gap in

12 our process.

13 In conclusion, I would like to remind

14 you that sourcing organic seed is very different

15 in an organic growing farm than it is our organic

16 vegetable farm.

17 In general, grain farmers are not

18 choosing varieties based on flavor and consumer

19 preference, but merely on performance-based

20 methods.

21 I want to say thank you for your time

22 and hope to continue to work on this document and
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1 make it work correctly for our organic industry.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Luke.

4 Any questions for Luke? I see

5 Harriet.

6 MS. BEHAR: Hello, Luke.

7 So, on the on-farm trialing, as an

8 organic inspector, I always encourage that. Of

9 course, I couldn't tell people to do it, but I

10 would ask the question, are you trialing things?

11 And, over time, I did see people buy

12 a few bags of organic seed and then end up buying

13 exclusively organic seed of the variety that

14 worked well for them on their farms.

15 I think that trialing, if done

16 correctly, we're not trying to prove that it was

17 108-day corn instead of a 112-day corn. We're

18 just trying to see, is it of an equivalent

19 variety which is what our regulation requires to

20 the non-organic seed that they're using.

21 So, I'm hoping that we can work

22 through that. And I know that the Organic Seed
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1 Alliance is actually working on an on-farm

2 trialing guidebook to help farmers really be able

3 to prove to their certifiers that the organic

4 seed was of not an equivalent variety or perhaps

5 that it was.

6 And so, I've actually seen on-farm

7 trialing work in the -- to the benefit of the

8 organic seed producer. And maybe you can help us

9 with that.

10 On the other side, I have also heard

11 some farmers that, especially in alfalfa, that

12 they're having some problems here in Wisconsin

13 finding alfalfa seed that really perform as they

14 wish of the organic variety.

15 MR. HOWARD: Can I comment on both of

16 those, Tom?

17 MS. BEHAR: Sure.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, yes, Luke.

19 MR. HOWARD: Great. Harriet, good to

20 talk to you.

21 And on-farm variety trials are

22 extremely important. And we're on the same page
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1 but they really have to be done right because,

2 you know, being out in the field with Blue River,

3 I've seen the opposite approach where a farmer is

4 using pioneer untreated corn and is really

5 married to the brand.

6 And he tries a bag or two of organic

7 seed and, lo and behold, it's in a low spot in

8 the field or a high spot in the field and doesn't

9 perform equally across the field.

10 So, I've also had the same experience

11 that you talked about where a farmer tries some

12 organic seed and says, yes, it works great.

13 But I think we have to be careful when

14 we do variety trials that they're done in an

15 unbiased approach.

16 And so, we're very close to being on

17 the same page. When it comes to alfalfa seed,

18 there is a major crisis that we've all been

19 dealing with in the organic alfalfa seed

20 marketplace. And we're all starting to recover

21 from that.

22 And so, alfalfa seed would be maybe an
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1 exception to the rule at this point. But I think

2 in a few years that exception would go away.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Luke. I also

4 have a question for you from Ashley.

5 Ashley?

6 MS. SWAFFAR: Hey, Luke, thank you for

7 your comments.

8 Just kind of this whole trial thing,

9 do you see farmers, in your experience and out

10 there working with them, they'll say, yes, I

11 tried organic last year then that one didn't work

12 for me so I'm just going to go back to

13 conventional? Do you see any of that happening

14 there?

15 MR. SBARRA: Yes, and I tend to think

16 that we have -- I'm going to say this

17 unofficially, but one of our largest competitors

18 in the marketplace in organic seed is Pioneer

19 Untreated Seed.

20 And so, we often have farmers that try

21 a few bags or try, you know, a 100 acres of

22 organic seed and then go back to the brand that
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1 they're most comfortable with.

2 You know, I'm a farmer, and changing

3 brands or changing what's sort of a pattern is a

4 hard thing to do. But, in order to support out

5 industry, we really have to be on board with

6 organic seed.

7 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Luke.

9 Any other questions for Luke?

10 (No response)

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Hearing none, thank you

12 for your time.

13 And we'll move on to the next speaker,

14 Erin McQuaig, are you here? Erin? Going once,

15 going twice. I don't see you.

16 All right, next one, I'm going to

17 butcher this again, Abdeljalil. Michelle, you

18 want to try that name?

19 MS. ARSENAULT: Maybe Abdeljalil?

20 MR. CHAPMAN: There we go.

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Mekkaoui?

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Are you here? And,
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1 going once, going twice.

2 All right, third up is Stanley

3 Edwards. Stanley, are you here?

4 MS. ARSENAULT: I haven't seen Stanley

5 on the line nor his area code, either.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: No, neither have I.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: I just left him a

8 message for him. We're about 20 minutes ahead.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Tracy, are you here?

10 MS. MISIEWICZ: I'm here.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, thank you. 

12 So, Tracy, you'll be up next.

13 Following Tracy is Kelsey Maben and

14 Amber Pool.

15 Tracy, could you start with your name

16 and affiliation?

17 MS. MISIEWICZ: Hi, my name is Tracy

18 Misiewicz and I'm the Associate Director of

19 Science Programs for the Organic Center.

20 We're a nonprofit organization that

21 conveniently communicates scientific research on

22 organic agriculture. And we collaborate with
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1 academic and governmental institutions to fill

2 gaps in our knowledge.

3 So, first of all, I just want to say

4 thank you to the material subcommittee for its

5 recommendation on research priorities. We

6 appreciate both the creation of the Research

7 Priority Framework and the efforts in each

8 subcommittee to bring forth their priorities.

9 We're particularly pleased to see the

10 inclusion of research priorities related to plant

11 and safe management and the development of

12 alternative materials on the national list.

13 We rely on your research priorities to

14 guide the development of our own research

15 projects and we've heard this same type of voice

16 as priorities issues by many of the stakeholders

17 that we work with regularly.

18 We have a number of paths in ongoing

19 research projects that have been informed by and

20 directly addressed in NOSB research priorities.

21 Some of our ongoing projects include

22 one to develop organic solutions for citrus
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1 greening disease, another to develop integrated

2 pest management strategies in the U.S. organic

3 rice systems, and a project aimed at developing

4 an organic alternative to celery powder for

5 curing organic meat.

6 Our suggestions for additional

7 research priorities for 2018 to be considered for

8 inclusion include the topic of biodiversity. 

9 And, in particular, we see a need for studies

10 that assess not just the effect of different

11 practices on biodiversity, but also the economic

12 costs and benefits of implementing those

13 practices on the farm.

14 So, this information --

15 (Telephonic interference)

16 MS. MISIEWICZ: -- the increasing

17 farmer's option of those prices --

18 (Telephonic interference)

19 MS. MISIEWICZ: -- systems, believe

20 that it's particularly relevant as the NOPs new

21 biodiversity in resource conservation guidance

22 comes online.
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1 We also suggest a consideration of

2 soil health for the inclusion of research

3 priorities for 2018. Soil health has been

4 getting a lot of attention lately, but there's

5 still significant disagreement among the academic

6 and agronomic communities on how to define soil

7 health, how to measure it and the best

8 recommendations to make to farmers.

9 We request that NOSB ensure that

10 organic stakeholder voices are represented by

11 requesting mandatory organic representation on

12 USDA research boards and committees to ensure

13 that the organic sector's interest and research

14 needs are adequately and fairly represented.

15 And then, finally, regarding

16 hydroponics and container production, we want to

17 highlight that research identifies organic

18 farming as a production method that can reduce

19 the severity of climate change by increasing soil

20 carbon sequestration.

21 However, it's still important to

22 remember that organic systems do release
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1 greenhouse gases and, when calculated on a per

2 yield basis, most organic production systems are

3 still not carbon negative or even carbon neutral.

4 So, we urge the prioritization of

5 research that meaningfully quantifies the impact

6 of different agricultural systems and products to

7 mitigate climate change by including both

8 greenhouse gas emissions and carbon

9 sequestration.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, any questions from

12 the Board? Emily has a question. I know you're

13 muted, hold on. Emily, do you have a question?

14 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, can you hear me

15 okay?

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can now.

17 MS. OAKLEY: Great, thank you.

18 I was wondering if you could elaborate

19 a little bit on one of the research priorities

20 you suggested regarding biodiversity and the

21 economic impacts of adopting biodiversity

22 practices on the farm?
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1 MS. MISIEWICZ: Sure.

2 Yes, so, there's lots of studies that

3 show that organic -- different organic practices

4 increase biodiversity on farms and there's lots

5 of studies that show that there are benefits to

6 farmers from implementing those studies.

7 So, things like, you know, increased

8 beneficial predators that keep pest levels down.

9 But there's also some research that's emerging

10 that's showing that sometimes on the farm, there

11 are tradeoffs.

12 So, one example is the research that's

13 actually in review right now coming out of UC

14 Berkeley. But just through communication with

15 those researchers, what they found is that, you

16 know, while they increase beneficial predators on

17 those farms, they are also increasing the birds

18 on the farms that are eating predators and

19 they're eating strawberries in strawberry fields.

20 So, when it came down to it, when they

21 quantified that effect, there was actually no

22 benefits to increasing biodiversity when it comes
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1 from, you know, an economic perspective because

2 the farmers were still losing crops to those

3 beneficial predators.

4 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Any other questions from

6 the Board?

7 I had a question, you mentioned

8 research on citrus greening. Was that research

9 that you said you guys were already undertaking

10 or research that you are recommending us as a

11 priority?

12 MS. MISIEWICZ: Oh, that's research

13 that we already undertaking and we're happy to

14 see that it's continued to be a priority.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any other

16 questions from the Board?

17 (No response)

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Hearing none, we'll

19 continue to move down the list. Thank you,

20 Tracy.

21 Up next, I have Kelsey Maben followed

22 by Amber Pool then Peter Nell and Megha Shah
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1 Even.

2 Kelsey, are you here?

3 MS. MABEN: Yes.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Kelsey, if you can start

5 with your name and affiliation for the record?

6 MS. MABEN: Sure.

7 My name is Kelsey Maben. I work at

8 CCOF as a Grower and Livestock Certification

9 Specialist.

10 I just wanted to talk basically today

11 about the proposal for emergency pesticide use

12 clarification.

13 We really appreciate the work being

14 done to clarify and strength this area of

15 resolution. However, we see that there is

16 potentially some further clarity needed in the

17 proposed language.

18 For instance, in the proposed language

19 of Part A states, quote, examples of materials

20 management, activities and goals, you could

21 include, and then it goes on to state some

22 possible merits to the practices.
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1 Following that, it then states that,

2 when practices provided for above are

3 insufficient.

4 The way this wording is laid out, it

5 seems to first suggest that these are suggested

6 parasite prevention areas. And then, in Part V

7 it then seems to suggest that this may be

8 required steps. And we feel that there's wording

9 that could be slightly more clear.

10 The accepted area is the accepted

11 parasite threshold suggested in the proposed

12 language. A certifier looking to enforce these

13 regulations, we think there may need to be a lot

14 further guidance on what these accepted parasite

15 thresholds will be to prevent discrepancies among

16 certifier if it was used more meaningfully.

17 Thank you.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, any questions from

19 the Board?

20 MS. SWAFFAR: Hi.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Sue?

22 MS. SWAFFAR: This is for the record.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Actually -- 

2 (Simultaneous speaking)

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, there. This is

4 Michelle. If you guys could put yourself on

5 mute, we're getting some background

6 conversations. Thanks.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley?

8 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay, thanks. Kelsey,

9 thank you for your comments.

10 Would you care to submit what you have

11 said to Michelle on there? Because that varies

12 from your written comments a little bit. So, I'd

13 like to -- I was trying to take notes and

14 couldn't get that down all the way.

15 MS. MABEN: Sure, I can submit that

16 information.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: And then, the other

18 question I had, I see there's more CCOF folks

19 coming up, but it sounds like you're the right

20 thought person.

21 On oxytocin, and you said 37 of your

22 members have oxytocin on their OSP right now. Do
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1 you know, have they explored other natural

2 options or is oxytocin credible for them?

3 MS. MABEN: I can't speak for every

4 operation specifically, but generally, we allow

5 oxytocin as a kind of emergency situation.

6 We like to know what materials they're

7 going to use and having that looked at as an

8 option ahead of time allows them.

9 MS. SWAFFAR: Do you use it in

10 situations that come up quickly?

11 MS. MABEN: Many of our operations do

12 explore other routes, whether that's like a more

13 typical removal of the retained test or using

14 non-synthetic fire.

15 But it varies from operation to

16 operation. But that 37 number comes up because

17 that's the number that you have listed that may

18 potentially use it if a situation warrants that.

19 And then, our inspectors follow up on

20 how that material is used.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: All right.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Can I follow up, Tom?
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes.

2 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes, so, if we remove

3 oxytocin and that's kind of what the subcommittee

4 wrote was. I'm not sure that that's really going

5 to happen, but looking like it.

6 Have any of your clients reached out

7 to you being very concerned with that if this was

8 to be removed?

9 MS. MABEN: We haven't had a large

10 amount of concern, no. It seems that, in

11 general, producers tend to enjoy having a larger

12 tool kit rather than a smaller one so there's

13 always some level of resistance for removing

14 things.

15 That said, we haven't heard much about

16 oxytocin.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you.

18 MS. MABEN: Thank you.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, up next, I

20 had a question from Sue. Sue, if you could try

21 to speak up, you're a little faint last time you

22 were asking a question.
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1 MS. BAIRD: Yes, hi.

2 No, Ashley asked my question. I was

3 a little confused about the emergency parasite

4 effect in the position, but she asked that and I

5 appreciate that.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you, Sue.

7 Any other questions? Hearing none,

8 thank you for your time, Kelsey.

9 And, up next, we have Amber. Amber,

10 are you here?

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Amber is on the line,

12 Tom. I do see her and I'm just going to ask once

13 more, if you're not speaking, please mute

14 yourself. I hear somebody typing. Thanks.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: And I see you on the

16 line, but we don't hear you. Are you muted on

17 your end? Still not hearing you, Amber.

18 I don't know if there's someone else,

19 I know we have a couple CCOF folks in a row that

20 can throw stones at Amber.

21 And I'm getting your message, Amber,

22 that you're here, but we're not hearing you.
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1 I'm going to go next to Peter and

2 hopefully, we can figure out a way to get Amber

3 on the line while Peter's commenting.

4 Peter, are you here?

5 MR. NELL: Yes, hello?

6 MR. CHAPMAN: I can hear you.

7 MR. NELL: All right.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: So, we'll go to Peter,

9 Amber if we can figure out how to get audio for

10 you, we'll do you next. And then, I have Megha

11 after that and then Zak -- followed by Zak. If

12 you're here to send in a message because I don't

13 see your phone number as well on the phone as

14 well.

15 So, Peter, you're up, and name and

16 affiliation, if you can.

17 MR. NELL: Hello, my name is Peter

18 Nell and I am the Policy Assistant at CCOF.

19 Today, I will be talking to you on

20 various proposals.

21 First, sincere support to Amalie's

22 proposal to be reclassify potassium acid tartrate
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1 to reflect its production methods. Potassium

2 acid tartrate should be classified as a non3 synthetic agricultural substance.

4 CCOF supports the need to classify it

5 as such provided in the proposal.

6 Second, it's unclear whether the

7 proposal to clarify the annotations under the

8 materials is even in scope on the national list

9 of allowed and prohibited substances will affect

10 CCOF members.

11 The marine materials our members often

12 use do not work for the binomial of their source

13 on the material safety data sheets.

14 Because of this, it's difficult for

15 CCOF to determine if our members would be

16 affected by the proposed annotation changes.

17 Third, CCOF supports the material

18 subcommittee's research priority. The

19 subcommittee identified important topics that

20 researchers should consider.

21 Fourth, this is just thanks to the

22 crops subcommittee for their ongoing work on the
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1 organic seed guidance. CCOF supports steps to

2 encourage more organic seed usage, increasing the

3 volumes organic seed sector.

4 Finally, CCOF encourages the members

5 of the Board to make use of their time by asking

6 questions to aquaponics and hydroponic growers

7 who are present at the webinar currently who may

8 not be able to travel to Jacksonville.

9 Thank you for the opportunity to

10 comment today. And Amber is with me now. So,

11 she'll comment after.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Peter. Any

13 questions for Peter?

14 (No response)

15 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, no questions

16 from the Board. Peter, thank you for your time. 

17 And, Amber, you're up next.

18 MS. POOL: Hi, I'm here this time. I

19 don't know what happened with my audio. Sorry

20 about that.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: No problem, we can hear

22 you just fine now. If you could start with your
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1 name and affiliation for the record.

2 MS. POOL: Hi, I'm Amber Pool, I'm the

3 Farm Certification and Technical Specialist for

4 CCOF.

5 I appreciate the opportunity to

6 comment via the webinar. And I'd like to thank

7 the Board for continuing to offer the webinars

8 for farmers who would not otherwise be able to

9 travel and interact with the NOSB Board members.

10 Currently, 511 CCOF members list soap11 based herbicides on their OSP. I remember that

12 is one of the biggest hurdles to any conditions

13 to organic production.

14 If these herbicides can be used on

15 roadways, ditches and around structures, while I

16 do not support their use in organic field

17 production, continued listing of these materials

18 allow an entire operation to be certified organic

19 rather than just their field or production areas.

20 If any organic production areas are

21 certified, a farming operation might choose to

22 use a harder prohibited herbicide around the
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1 roads and the structures instead of just softer

2 spaces.

3 I'd like to briefly mention that once

4 the NOP updates annotations, the Board should

5 then review under the main annotations.

6 And with that, I'm done.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Amber.

8 Any questions for Amber? I have a

9 question from Asa.

10 MR. BRADMAN: I'm sorry, Amber, I

11 didn't quite hear what you said about the soap12 based herbicides. It -- you went out a little

13 bit. You said 111 users use the soap-based

14 herbicide?

15 MS. POOL: We currently have 511

16 members that list that soap-based herbicide on

17 their organic system plan. It doesn't mean that

18 they're all using it, but they do have it in

19 their toolbox if they want to do that.

20 MR. BRADMAN: It sounded like you were

21 or were not opposed to some uses?

22 MS. POOL: Oh, I agree that the
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1 annotation should say that it can only be used on

2 roadways, ditches and around structures.

3 I don't want that changed. I don't

4 think it should be used in the fields, but it

5 should be allowed to be used around roads and

6 structures. That way -- entire operation under

7 the organic system plan instead of field areas,

8 food area from the organic system plan and then

9 probably choose to use harder herbicides that

10 aren't compatible with organic production.

11 MR. BRADMAN: Okay, okay. Thank you

12 for that clarification.

13 MS. POOL: No problem.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: Tom, are you still

15 there?

16 MR. CHAPMAN: I put myself on mute,

17 sorry.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: That's okay.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm getting over a cold,

20 so when I cough I try not to be loud. I apologize

21 when I do that.

22 MS. ARSENAULT: We appreciate that,
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1 thank you.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes.

3 Okay, thank you, Amber. I'm not

4 seeing any other questions from the Board at this

5 time, so we'll move on to the next speaker. I

6 have Megha.

7 And, following Megha, I have Zak and

8 then Preston Farris.

9 Megha, are you here?

10 Ms. SHAH: I am.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Excellent. If you'd

12 start with your name and affiliation.

13 MS. SHAH: Sure. My name's Megha

14 Even, I'm a Senior Farm Certification Specialist

15 with CCOF.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, go ahead and

17 comment.

18 MS. SHAH: Okay.

19 Today, I will be commenting on the

20 crop subcommittee's proposal and discussion

21 document related to EPO production systems.

22 I've been working for CCOF for two and
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1 a half years and, in that time, I reviewed 460

2 farms, including more than 52 being a base

3 production system.

4 Other continuous operations, I have

5 reviewed approximately two-thirds to this

6 perennial crops, blueberries, a small number of

7 seasonal blackberries, and strawberries on

8 elevated structures.

9 The remaining container based

10 operations I have reviewed grow annual crops,

11 specifically tomatoes, cucumbers and peppers.

12 I would like to share some of the

13 practices used by certified organic container

14 producers focusing on mainly on soil management

15 and natural resource standards of the

16 regulations.

17 First, I would like to emphasize that

18 container producers must be a complete OSP as a

19 document complaint with all areas of the organic

20 standards.

21 CCOF requires container producers that

22 they get additional OSP forms and include
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1 detailed descriptions and photographs of their

2 production system.

3 The OSP submitted by container

4 producers are often lengthier and includes more

5 and more detail when compared to OSPs submitted

6 by in-ground producers.

7 An example of this is that each

8 component of their growing system must show how

9 it supports biological activity. You must

10 explain how your life expectancy of the container

11 substrate and how the growing substrate was

12 disposed of at the end of the growing cycle.

13 For annual crops, I see one to two

14 month rotations with lettuce inside containers

15 and the use of cover crops as a natural mulch in

16 wood topped container systems.

17 The perennial crops, there's so little

18 vegetation in between growth, but then you have

19 those systems where containers were placed under

20 shade crops.

21 Container producers must know how to

22 calculate portions of the entire production site
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1 and are required to keep natural resources and

2 biodiversity monitoring lines impacted for the

3 verified it in sections.

4 Outdoor container producers with plant

5 pollinator and may enhance the developer in more

6 habitat and non-crop areas of their farm. And

7 like the indoor container producers with

8 inspectors of health just outside their

9 greenhouse.

10 All container based systems are

11 reviewed with containers, grow back, and the

12 container substrate is either composted or

13 incorporated into the soil outside the production

14 area at the end of the growing cycle.

15 Container producers are comparable to

16 in-ground producers and vary depending on the

17 specific operation. The vast majority is not all

18 container production producers.

19 I have reviewed the compost on the

20 biological activity. Materials include compost

21 made onsite. With respect to the reviewer, I

22 support any producer that demonstrates inside the
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1 organic standards, irrespective of their

2 production.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Megha.

5 Any questions from the Board? I see

6 Francis.

7 MR. THICKE: Am I on? Can you hear

8 me?

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can hear you,

10 Francis.

11 MR. THICKE: The question I have is of

12 the container growers that you've certified, are

13 some of them 100 percent up on liquid feeding or

14 virtually 100 percent and what percentage of your

15 hydroponic growers are virtually all liquid

16 feeding?

17 MS. SHAH: I personally have not

18 reviewed any operations that are 100 percent

19 hydroponic, although CCOF does have a handful of

20 operations that use a 100 percent liquid media.

21 MR. THICKE: What would you say most

22 of them are? Like what percentage liquid feeding
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1 would most of them be?

2 MS. SHAH: I wouldn't be able to give

3 a percentage. I could estimate maybe five to ten

4 producers out of 3,500 that we've certified.

5 MR. THICKE: Five to ten, I'm sorry,

6 I didn't quite follow that. Five to ten are 100

7 percent hydroponic liquid feeding?

8 MS. SHAH: Correct. Yes, that's my

9 best estimate.

10 MR. THICKE: Okay, all right, thank

11 you.

12 MS. SHAH: You're welcome.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Francis.

14 Up next, I have Steve.

15 MR. ELA: Sure, this is just kind of

16 following up on Francis's question. It's buried

17 in there and I didn't quite catch when you were

18 talking about the vermicompost, the compost and

19 such, and, you know, that you needed to, you

20 know, provide documentation of that.

21 Which then tells me that we hear so

22 much about so many of these container systems
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1 being in coconut cores, but then you're talking

2 about maybe a document for the vermicompost and

3 the compost and things.

4 Could you elaborate on that a little

5 more? I didn't quite follow you and what you

6 were saying.

7 MS. SHAH: Yes, sure. I apologize, I

8 tried to fit in way more than I probably could do

9 in this.

10 But what I see with our container

11 producers are, the annual -- the producers of

12 annual crops, you are correct, they specifically

13 use cocoa core, a combination of cocoa core

14 compost and sometimes volcanic rock as their

15 substrate.

16 And then the perennial producers use

17 peat moss, cocoa core, usually perlite or saw

18 dust and compost as well. They use a typical

19 substrate mixes that I've seen.

20 Does that answer question?

21 MR. ELA: You have. And I guess I

22 just, you know, it's kind of like Francis said, I
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1 mean, it sounds like only very few of your

2 producers use a 100 percent liquid feeding.

3 Are they putting like in the

4 vermicompost and the compost, are they adding

5 those to throughout the growing season or is that

6 just the initial substrate that they're putting

7 those in?

8 MS. SHAH: Yes, that's correct. They

9 are typically replenishing throughout the

10 production cycle but the starting media it's in

11 the compost and then the compost is replenished

12 through the growing cycle.

13 MR. ELA: And do you have any sense. 

14 I guess we've had lots of discussion about liquid

15 feeding versus using things like compost and

16 containers.

17 I mean, it sounds like that's adding

18 the compost is a pretty critical component of

19 that system or -- I'm just trying to kind of get

20 around what they're actually doing here.

21 MS. SHAH: Right. The thing is highly

22 dependent on the operation. I do think it's of
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1 enhancing biological activities.

2 They're, you know, some inherent

3 biological activity in the cocoa core and in the

4 peat moss. And they keep adding the compost just

5 as an additional boost to that. That's my

6 understanding just from a reviewer's perspective.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, I have a question

8 from Harriet.

9 MS. BEHAR: Hi, you mentioned that the

10 inspectors can review a biodiversity plan. Do

11 you think that you could send that off to the

12 shelf so we can see how you are monitoring that

13 on these operations that use landscape cloth and

14 shade cloth and those systems?

15 I'm just kind of curious how you're

16 monitoring that and what percentage of the land

17 that is being certified needs to be planted to

18 pollinator plantings and that sort thing.

19 MS. SHAH: Sure, we provide sample

20 monitoring routes. We're seeing a number of our

21 operations use that as a starting point and then

22 develop their own record keeping system, so how
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1 they do that.

2 But I'd be happy to pass along an

3 example of something that some of our operation

4 that use it.

5 They often do some numerical counts of

6 different wildlife and things that they've seen

7 around their operations. They sometimes submit

8 photos. They will often submit photos of

9 plantings that they've done outside their

10 greenhouse, for example, you would see probably

11 some sunflowers.

12 And so, they'll submit photos of that

13 -- of those practices in order to naturally 

14 requirement.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I also have

16 a question from Asa.

17 MR. BRADMAN: Yes, hi. I don't know

18 if this is the place to talk about it or if

19 perhaps somebody else from CCOF will be talking

20 about it in comment.

21 But I'm looking at the standard that

22 you're proposing and the comments you submitted. 
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1 And the last three sentences are about basically

2 labeling, suggesting container grown,

3 hydroponically grown, aquaponically grown as

4 essentially a compromise on some of these issues.

5 And I also know that, you know, you

6 have a pretty diverse board and different

7 opinions on this. I see this in all -- almost

8 every other organization organic that I'm

9 involved in.

10 So, I'm wondering if you have any

11 insight on that and any feedback on obstacles or

12 acceptance or comments?

13 And if somebody else was going to

14 comment on that on the webinar from CCOF, then we

15 can defer.

16 MS. SHAH: Sure, thank you, yes. That

17 was going to be my comment because I haven't been

18 directly involved in those discussions, but our

19 Policy Director, Paula Deanwood, will be at the 

20 meeting and she will be able to answer any

21 questions that are submitted via written comments

22 at that time.
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1 MR. BRADMAN: Okay, thank you.

2 MS. SHAH: Sure.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, and I have

4 one question as well.

5 I feel it's -- you know, and answer it

6 to the best of your ability as a reviewer that's

7 seen a lot of these operations. But how many of

8 these container operations have you guys

9 certified today would be able to meet the

10 recommendations proposed by the crops

11 subcommittee for containers? You know, with

12 either their operations today or with some minor

13 modifications?

14 MS. SHAH: From my perspective, it's

15 very, very difficult to estimate that number. 

16 I'm not entirely confident that most of our

17 operations will be able to meet the proposed

18 requirements, some might be able to.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay.

20 MS. SHAH: Sorry, that wasn't very --

21 MR. CHAPMAN: No worries, I know I'm

22 putting you on the spot there. You can't answer
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1 for every people about the operations.

2 MS. SHAH: It --

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Again --

4 MS. SHAH: There's some operations may

5 be able to get it depending on the economic

6 situation and how much time and resources they

7 have.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: So, what you're saying

9 is it would be a change to operations they would

10 need to invest in new equipment, most likely?

11 MS. SHAH: Correct, I would believe so.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay.

13 Francis?

14 MR. THICKE: Yes, in your proposed

15 certification standard, you have kind of

16 container grown hydroponics are grown and

17 aquaponics are grown.

18 And for those that are 100 percent

19 liquid feeding, would you require them to use the

20 hydroponically grown label? It's a little

21 ambiguous the way you sort of lump hydroponics

22 into container growing.
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1 But, I'm curious, would you actually

2 require under that scheme 100 percent liquid

3 feeding operations to use the term hydroponic?

4 MS. SHAH: I believe the proposal is

5 that the operations can decide for themselves

6 which terminology to use, whether they would like

7 to use hydroponically grown or container grown.

8 MR. THICKE: That's what just like, to

9 me, that they could just put what they wanted on

10 there, right?

11 MS. SHAH: I'm sorry, I didn't hear

12 your last question very clearly.

13 MR. THICKE: It appeared to me from

14 the verbiage that they could decide which one

15 they wanted to put on, that's what I wanted to

16 verify.

17 MS. SHAH: That's correct, you're

18 right, yes.

19 MR. THICKE: Thank you.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, any other

21 questions from the Board?

22 (No response)
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Seeing none, thank you,

2 Megha, for your time and answering our questions.

3 Up next I have Zak from Oregon Tilth

4 then Preston Farris and Zen Honeycutt after that. 

5 And, Zak, are you still here?

6 MR. WIENGAND: Can you hear me?

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can, Zak. Zak,

8 if you'd start with your name and affiliation for

9 the record.

10 MR. WIENGAND: Sure. My name is Zak

11 Wiengand. I am the Technical -- the Harvesting

12 Program Technical Specialist for Oregon Tilth.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, and go ahead with

14 your comments.

15 MR. WIENGAND: All right.

16 So, I'm here today to provide some

17 insights into the efforts Oregon Tilth is making

18 towards ensuring integrity in the organic supply

19 chain.

20 We feel that the discussion around

21 excluded operations and the supply chain is a

22 good start to the proposal. But the discussion
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1 extends to areas of certification that are also

2 challenging, as you well know, such as imports of

3 organic products.

4 To combat these issues, we have

5 implemented several policies and enacted certain

6 procedure changes that I would like to summarize

7 for you guys and possibly inspire the NOSB.

8 Since the beginning of the year, we

9 have implemented a policy on imported organic

10 products, organic livestock purchase and sales

11 and excluded operation record keeping

12 requirements.

13 Our imported products policy was

14 implemented in July of this year and requires

15 that all -- that certified operations importing

16 specific organic products, primarily grain, from

17 outside of the U.S. notify Oregon Tilth of

18 shipments, provide traceability documentation and

19 get written approval from us prior to use.

20 Because of this policy, we have

21 actually been able to identify several

22 discrepancies in certification documentation
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1 which are currently under investigation by the

2 relevant issuing certifiers.

3 Note that this policy is actually in

4 addition to the NOP Directive that was issued to

5 certifiers.

6 Second, our livestock broker policy

7 was implemented early this month. It requires

8 that Oregon Tilth certified operations purchase

9 organic livestock only from other certified

10 operations.

11 Previously, we permitted purchase to

12 uncertified brokers so long as loads are not

13 split or combined.

14 Due to receipt of several complaints

15 from a variety of sources about issues with

16 uncertified brokers fraudulently representing

17 conventional livestock as organic, we decided to

18 take some action on that.

19 Third, we have an increased focus on

20 verification efforts centered around purchase of

21 organic ingredients to excluded operations as

22 well as the record keeping expectations for
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1 certified operations.

2 As part of this, we provided

3 additional information and resources about the

4 expectations for record keeping when purchasing

5 organic products to excluded operations. And we

6 have instructed inspectors to focus on verifying

7 records for purchases in these situations this

8 year as well as the next.

9 We do see gaps in the ability to

10 verify a lot of this information because of the

11 record keeping requirements for excluded

12 operations or lack thereof.

13 But we're employing as much policy as

14 we can to help ensure organic integrity in the

15 supply chain and without further changes.

16 We do see the proposal for excluded

17 operations in the supply chain and a step in the

18 right direction to help address these issues but

19 there's definitely more to it.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Zak.

22 Any questions for Zak?
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1 Scott?

2 MR. RICE: Thanks.

3 Zak, I just wanted to convey to you

4 and others who are reading that document that,

5 you know, that is not a catch-all standalone

6 document or proposal. And, you know, fully

7 acknowledge all of the other efforts that are

8 happening in the community around this issue.

9 And when the NOP came to us with their

10 request that we look specifically at imports, we

11 were already kind of focusing more on this

12 excluded operations angle. And so, we chose to

13 kind of continue in that direction.

14 And, as a result, came up with this

15 proposal. But, just to let you and everyone

16 know, we will be moving forward on that request

17 from the NOP in this next term to look

18 specifically at imports.

19 So, thanks for all of the

20 implementation of practices you guys are doing

21 and always good to examples of how that's

22 working. Thanks.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Scott. Any

2 other questions for Zak?

3 (No response)

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Hearing none, thank you,

5 Zak, for your comments.

6 Up next, we have Preston Farris,

7 followed by Zen Honeycutt and then Kieran Foran. 

8 Kieran, I don't -- we don't see your phone

9 number, if you can message that to us it would be

10 appreciated.

11 Preston, are you here?

12 MR. FARRIS: Yes, sir.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, Preston, if

14 you could start with your name and affiliation

15 then you can just go forward with your comments.

16 MR. FARRIS: Yes, good afternoon. My

17 name is Preston Farris. I'm a Ranch Manager for

18 Rider Brothers, Incorporated based in Oxnard,

19 California.

20 In my role with the company, I am

21 involved heavily in organic berry production on

22 several cultivars.
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1 The purpose of my statement today will

2 be to make an argument that the proposal on

3 hydroponics and container growing recommendations

4 put forward by the crop subcommittee be sent back

5 to the subcommittee for further discussion.

6 In the proposal put forth, there are

7 clear regulations that control farming practices

8 and excludes certain growers, especially in

9 regards to fertility management.

10 The proposal clearly states that 50

11 percent of the plant's annual nitrogen needs must

12 be present in the soil on the day of planting and

13 then only 20 percent of the additional nitrogen

14 in that year may be provided for liquid feeding.

15 While this may be possible in certain

16 annual crops with limited growth time per year,

17 for perennial crops and site-specific locations

18 such as Southern California, it does not make

19 sense.

20 Having a large amount of unavailable

21 nitrogen in the soil prior to planting reduces

22 the health of the root zone. By increasing the
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1 salinity at the time of the planting and creates

2 a situation where the availability of nitrogen is

3 adverse to the needs of the plant.

4 The only thing that this creates is a

5 situation in which nitrates are pushed past the

6 root zone and leaks into the soil below the plant

7 creating a deficit of nutrition that will need to

8 be corrected with additional inputs in the

9 future.

10 This also creates a situation in which

11 many growers will be tempted to inflate their

12 yearly nitrogen requirements in order to not be

13 bound by these fertility restrictions.

14 This is not an efficient use of

15 resources or sound management of the environment.

16 From a purely practical view, the

17 proposal creates an increased labor need in a

18 time where labor is one of California

19 agriculture's largest challenges.

20 Further, what method of revision or

21 inspections will be used to assure that growers

22 are complying with these proposed regulations?
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1 Based on the NOSB's past declarations

2 that there would be no proposal put forth that

3 creates a double standard between allowed

4 containers production and soil regulations, I

5 believe that this proposal severely limits the

6 ability of every organic farmer to make the

7 decisions necessary to promote plant health and

8 limit environmental impacts.

9 Thank you for your time and I welcome

10 any questions.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Tom, you may be still

12 on mute again.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, that happened

14 again, sorry.

15 Thank you and I see a question from

16 Francis.

17 MR. THICKE: Yes, my question is, can

18 you tell us what you use for a substrate from the

19 medium that is for a container?

20 And, secondly, what percent liquid

21 feeding do you do with your system?

22 MR. FARRIS: On both points, it's very
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1 difficult to make blanket statement on what

2 substrates we're using. It's very site specific

3 based on the crop.

4 And it's very site-specific on

5 fertility based on the crop. We use --

6 MS. ARSENAULT: I'm sorry to

7 interrupt, sorry, if I can just interrupt for

8 just one second. This is Michelle. If you just

9 joined us, please make sure you're on mute so we

10 don't hear your background conversations. Thank

11 you.

12 MR. FARRIS: Yes, okay.

13 So, it's very difficult to make a

14 blanket statement on which substrates we're using

15 because it really varies based on perennial or

16 annual crops. It varies based on the location,

17 the size of the container.

18 And, on the liquid feeding, also, we

19 do use both solid and liquid fertility on an as

20 needed basis in line with our soil production.

21 And I think, to clarify, there's been

22 a little bit of, at least on my end, a
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1 misclarification of what liquid fertility means.

2 And just because it's liquid, does not

3 mean that it's available to the plant. All of

4 the liquid fertilizers that we put on still

5 require a microbial process to take place to make

6 that nitrogen available to the plant.

7 So, there's a big difference between

8 liquid and availability to the plant.

9 MR. THICKE: And the liquid would that

10 be hydrolyzed soybean meal? Would that be one

11 mix you use?

12 MR. FARRIS: Not particularly. It's

13 a very expensive product to use. We use mostly

14 fish based emulsions if we're using a liquid

15 nitrogen application.

16 But it's always used in conjunction

17 with solid fertility dependent on the time and

18 the ease of use of applications.

19 MR. THICKE: So, for the range of

20 liquid feeding, would you say it's generally 50

21 percent or more or 80 percent or more?

22 MR. FARRIS: It's really impossible
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1 for me to say. It changes year to year, it

2 changes crop to crop, it changes site to site. 

3 So, for me to make a blanket statement for every

4 grower is really would be tough for me to do.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, this is Tom.

6 I have a quick follow up question to

7 make. I hear that -- I see you can't make a

8 blanket statement, are you able to give a range,

9 you know, what you use?

10 MR. FARRIS: I mean, it could be

11 anywhere as high as 50, it can be anywhere as low

12 as 20 for the nitrogen. You know, it really

13 depends on the grower because you're applying

14 these solid fertilizers takes a lot of manpower,

15 especially on a perennial crop where you might

16 have to go back in the second year or the third

17 year, pull a plant out of the pot, add compost to

18 the pot, put the plant back in. And we already

19 don't have enough labor as it is even to get the

20 fruit off of a plant.

21 Trying to add very similar products

22 that we're adding through the drop tape on the
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1 solid basis purely because they're solid, even

2 though they're very, very similar products, to

3 me, doesn't make much sense as a regulation to

4 require growers to take on that extra burden.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you.

6 I see that Asa is next followed by

7 Steve, discussions.

8 Asa?

9 MR. BRADMAN: Excuse me, I have two

10 questions.

11 One, if you look at a little bit more

12 about nitrogen being forced out of the pot into

13 the soil and where it goes after that.

14 And then, the second question is, so,

15 at the end of the cycle or prunings and

16 trimmings, what happens to that material? Is it

17 composted? Is it reused in any way? And what

18 happens to the containers?

19 MR. FARRIS: Sure, on the first part

20 on the nitrogen being leaked past the roots, that

21 really is especially important on perennial crops

22 because we're going to be required now to put 50
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1 percent of the nitrogen into the pot and the time

2 of planting.

3 But, that plant is not going to need

4 that nitrogen for probably another six to eight

5 months.

6 So, that microbial activity is going

7 to start on the solid fertilizers on day one that

8 the fertilizer is put into the pot.

9 So, that's going to start breaking

10 down and there's going to be an excess of

11 nitrogen in the pot creating a high salinity

12 environment. And then, that fertilizer is just

13 going to get washed right across the plant in

14 both containers and soil, the same thing is going

15 to happen.

16 And then, when the plant does need

17 that required nutrition six or eight months down

18 the road, it's already going to be gone. So now,

19 I have to go back and put on additional inputs to

20 make up for that.

21 As far as the trimmings, both the used

22 substrate and our pruned material, the wood,
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1 leaves, berries, everything, that all gets

2 mulched. It gets chopped up and then mulched and

3 then goes into either compost or green waste,

4 technically, a green waste system for use in our

5 in soil field and also in our vermiculture

6 applications that we have.

7 MR. BRADMAN: Thank you.

8 I have a related question to the

9 mulching. You know, there's been concerns about,

10 you know, potentially covering the earth with

11 more plastic and used as shade cloths and versus

12 open soil.

13 And, you know, of course, I've seen

14 mulch films on, you know, lots of soil systems as

15 well including polyethylene.

16 But, I'm curious, what you use over

17 the soil, under the pots, between the rows and

18 how is that managed and, you know, if you're

19 using, for example, plastics, do you see

20 alternatives? That sort of thing?

21 MR. FARRIS: Yes, we use -- we have

22 both systems where we have weed mats directly
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1 under the pot and then the in between rows, the

2 furrows are left open.

3 And then, we do also have a few

4 locations where we have weed mats covering the

5 entire portion of the production area, depending

6 on how heavy the weed structure is.

7 It does, as previously stated, labor

8 is a big, big concern for us and trying to go

9 through and take care of that amount of weeding,

10 it doesn't -- it is not feasible in certain

11 locations.

12 The other point I would like to make

13 is, is it better to have a little bit of cover

14 and ground that's not touched or do you

15 consistently running a tracker to that every six

16 months, eight months, a year over a piece of

17 ground?

18 So, we do use both applications. We

19 have open areas and we have covered areas, it

20 just depends on the site.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next, I have Steve,

22 a question from Steve and a question from
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1 Francis.

2 Steve?

3 MR. ELA: Yes, I'd just like to follow

4 up, I mean, you know, you basically said you

5 couldn't tell us, you know, how much liquid

6 feeding versus solid feeding, et cetera in a year

7 because it varies so much.

8 Yes, I mean, that's really critical

9 information, but could you at least tell us what

10 the decision making process is to decide whether

11 -- which one you're going to use and how you're

12 going to use them?

13 MR. FARRIS; Yes, absolutely. First

14 off would be labor. Do we have the amount of

15 people that we need to go through and put solid

16 fertility out on 50 acres of blueberries? You

17 know, that takes -- it's a very costly and labor

18 -- high labor need practice to do. So, that's a

19 big portion of the decision making.

20 As I stated before, many of the

21 products that we're applying are very similar in

22 the liquid form or the solid form. They're just
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1 -- depends on the way that you want to apply it.

2 And the biggest driver for that is

3 probably labor and then increased efficiency as

4 well. Because, through the drip in a container

5 production system, we can be a little bit more

6 precise on the quantity of fertilizer that we're

7 adding to each pot versus when it's done solidly,

8 because people make mistakes, they grab an extra

9 handful, they grab a little less handful.

10 Through the drip system, it allows us

11 to be very, very precise with the timing and the

12 uniformity of our distribution.

13 That does not mean that it makes it

14 anymore available to the plant uptake any

15 quicker, it just allows us to apply it more

16 cheaply and more uniformly.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: All right.

18 We have a question from Francis and

19 then from Dave Mortensen and then we're going to

20 have to stop the questions there and move on.

21 So, Francis?

22 MR. ELA: Yes, regarding your concern
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1 about leaking of nitrate, what you're talking

2 about.

3 Now, what if you had instead more

4 compost in the pot? We've seen research on

5 systems where they have a 100 percent compost or

6 a high percentage of compost and there is no

7 supplemental feeding period solid or liquid.

8 And so, it sounds to me that you're

9 feeding a lot of liquid because you have

10 essentially more plant fertility, is that

11 correct?

12 MR. FARRIS: No, that's not correct on

13 two points.

14 The first I'd like to make is, we do

15 use compost in our pots. So, to say that we

16 don't is false.

17 MR. ELA: On a percent -- what percent

18 of compost?

19 MR. FARRIS: It may be ten percent, it

20 depends and then we add in as a top dress

21 sometimes for weeding. We'll use a green waste

22 over the top of the pot to try and keep the weeds
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1 pressured out a little bit actually in the

2 container. So, that's adding some increase

3 microbial activity and nutrition.

4 And then, the second point that I

5 would like to make on that is the plant can't

6 heat compost. But, through the biology, that

7 compost material still needs to be broken down

8 into a form that the plant can take up through

9 the liquid.

10 So, it doesn't matter if you're at a

11 100 percent compost, the method that the plant

12 eats is still the same. And if that compost is

13 breaking down before the plant needs it, then you

14 have all of that energy going right past the

15 roots and out of the plant.

16 So, making us put that in at a time

17 when the plant doesn't need it, doesn't seem, to

18 me, to be the best use of the resources.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next, Dave.

20 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, thanks, Preston

21 for the presentation.

22 Could you give us an idea, aside from
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1 the nutrition of the plants that you describes,

2 could you tell us the difference between your

3 container production system that you've described

4 and a neighbor who is conventional?

5 MR. FARRIS: Oh, I mean, it would be

6 huge. Are you saying between conventional in

7 soil or conventional saying use of non-organic

8 products?

9 MR. MORTENSEN: A conventional

10 container production neighbor nearby you, what

11 would be the biggest differences? I'm just

12 trying to picture it.

13 MR. FARRIS: Well, I mean, your forms

14 of nitrogen or your forms of fertility and all

15 aspects are completely different.

16 A conventional container producer

17 would be using urea, they would be using pure

18 ammonia, they would be using calcium nitrate. 

19 They would be spraying with conventional

20 pesticides.

21 Those are the things that we are not

22 allowed to do.
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1 I think a more fair comparison would

2 be our organic container production and our

3 organic soil production. I mean, really, the

4 only difference between those two is the thing

5 that the plant roots are sitting in. That's

6 really the only difference.

7 I mean, the difference between an

8 organic container production and a conventional

9 container production is huge. I mean, you can't

10 even compare the two. All of the tools are

11 different.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: Thanks.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: I have a quick follow up

14 to that one.

15 So, are you suggesting that your

16 inputs are very similar in your in-ground

17 production of strawberries than they are for your

18 container production of strawberries?

19 MR. FARRIS: They're almost identical.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: How would they differ?

21 MR. FARRIS: On an as needed basis. 

22 You know, in the substrate we have a little bit -
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1 - or in the container production, we have a

2 little bit more ability to manipulate what's

3 happening before we plant. So, we can jump start

4 a little bit of the microbial activity.

5 We have a better idea of the processes

6 that are taking place. Wherein, the soil, it's,

7 you know, if you have a disease or you have an

8 issue, it's much harder to address that in the

9 soil.

10 So, those would be really the only

11 differences. But, we use, you know, just pretty

12 much the same products, you know, whatever's

13 available to us on the labeling are by both the

14 soil and the container production.

15 I mean, it would be -- if you looked

16 at a listed input from one of our organic soil

17 fields and one of organic container fields, and

18 nobody told you which one was which, you would

19 not be able to decide.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. And I know

21 I said no more questions, I'm going to throw the

22 last question to Emily and then we'll have to go
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1 on to the next speaker.

2 Emily?

3 MS. OAKLEY: Thanks. Did you unmute

4 me?

5 MR. CHAPMAN: I did, yes, I think.

6 MS. OAKLEY: Great, thanks.

7 So, you kind of touched on this, but

8 if you had both in ground and container

9 production already, what is the benefit to you of

10 the container production? Why don't you just do

11 all of your production in the ground?

12 And, Tom, you can put me back on mute.

13 MR. FARRIS: Well, I mean, as you may

14 know or may not know, here in Southern

15 California, land is decreasing, you know,

16 available agricultural land is decreasing every

17 year.

18 And a lot of the organic ground that

19 we have has been commercially farmed organically

20 for quite some time and the ground is a little

21 bit tired.

22 And it also allows us to take a piece
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1 of ground that may not be suited for a particular

2 cultivar, then you have the really -- you know,

3 it might be fine organic ground, but it might be

4 a really heavy clay soil with a high water table.

5 And it wouldn't be very suitable for

6 growing blueberries, but we can turn that around

7 and now grow organic blueberries on that same

8 piece of ground.

9 So, it opens up a lot of new avenues

10 for an organic farmer to provide quality organic

11 fruit to the marketplace in a time where that's

12 becoming more and more difficult to do.

13 And, as a young grower, having new

14 tools and new opportunities taken away from me

15 doesn't feel very good. So, it's something that

16 I feel very passionate about and I hope that all

17 of these points have been taken into

18 consideration.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you,

20 Preston, thank you for your time with us and

21 answering all our questions.

22 MR. FARRIS: Thank you very much.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next, I have Zen

2 Honeycutt followed by Kieran Foran and then Megan

3 Debates.

4 Zen, are you here? Did you get your

5 audio working? And we're not hearing you. I'm

6 just going to check to see if you're mute on your

7 end.

8 MS. HONEYCUTT: Yes, can you hear me?

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, I can hear you now,

10 Zen.

11 MS. HONEYCUTT: Okay, is it okay like

12 this or should I put a headset in?

13 MR. CHAPMAN: No, this is perfect. If

14 you can start with your name and affiliation and

15 then you can go straight into your comments.

16 MS. HONEYCUTT: Great.

17 My name is Zen Honeycutt and I'm the

18 Executive Director of Moms Across America. And I

19 want to say thank you for listening to me today

20 and having me on the call.

21 I'm all once are grateful because our

22 children's lives depend on what all of you do and
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1 I just want to say thank you so much.

2 I'm going to speaking from the

3 perspective of the consumer on hydroponics. And

4 what we want to say is that we need more

5 organics. We need more organic, not less. We

6 need GMO-free and toxin free food.

7 I have driven across the country twice

8 and have seen a massive deficit of organic food

9 in the stores.

10 Regarding hydroponics specifically,

11 our moms prefer organic food to be grown in the

12 soil and we would like to have the right to

13 choose between food grown in the soil or water.

14 We do prefer a separate logo for

15 hydro-organic, meaning, we would like the word

16 organic to be on it if it is, in fact, organic.

17 So, we are most concerned with the

18 toxins, however, and we think the surface of the

19 discussion should be not so much about keeping

20 organic in the soil, but about keeping the toxins

21 out of our soil, water and food. And this

22 contamination issue is being widely ignored and
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1 it is a huge problem.

2 So, if you ask any person at a

3 farmer's market, do you buy produce if it's

4 pesticide free but not organic? You will almost

5 always say yes. So, their primary concern is the

6 toxins in the food, not the label.

7 So, I ask NOSB and the organic

8 community to consider the following points with

9 the possibility of incorporating some of the

10 benefits of hydroponics into organic in order to

11 further protect consumers.

12 One of the huge benefits of

13 hydroponics is that the product being grown is

14 protected from aerial spraying.

15 Many consumers do not trust USDA

16 Organic now because we know aerial spraying is

17 happening and because this issue is not being

18 addressed by the National Organic Program.

19 Number two, another consideration is

20 the inputs in hydroponics. And we want to make

21 sure that those are a 100 percent organic.

22 The field grown organics, we are
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1 concerned that the glyphosate remaining in the

2 soil for up to 20 years is impacting the quality

3 of our food.

4 And also, glyphosate is being found in

5 rain and irrigation water.

6 With hydroponics, one would have more

7 control as you could test the water and filter

8 it, if necessary. Obviously, this cannot be done

9 with rain.

10 Number three, the last concern in

11 nutrition. We request NOSB and the organic and

12 hydroponic organizations test their similar crops

13 for nutrition levels and let the consumers know

14 the results.

15 If hydroponic nutrition levels are

16 comparable in nutrition and a 100 percent of the

17 organic inputs are used, then hydroponically

18 grown food could carry the hydro-organic label as

19 safe for consumption and maybe even less toxic

20 than organic grown in soil.

21 This may, in fact, be the way of the

22 future due to our increasing toxic environment
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1 and climate change.

2 You know, we ask you to consider that

3 temperatures are rising and that 50 percent of

4 the wheat crop will be lost in the Midwest if the

5 temperature rises, you know, two degrees, this

6 you know.

7 And we've already lost 50 percent of

8 the crop. So, just to reiterate, we must

9 consider that parents depending on food supply is

10 a real threat when we import 80 percent of our

11 food, especially soy and that they can

12 contaminate our soy -- our food.

13 And that we ask to have a separate

14 label, hydro-organics.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Zen. I'm

16 going to have to stop you there. So, thank you

17 for your comments. Any questions from the Board?

18 (No response)

19 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm seeing no questions. 

20 So, Zen, thank you very much for your comments.

21 And we will continue moving down. 

22 Next up, I have Kieran Foran followed by Megan
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1 Debates and then Peter Overgaag.

2 Kieran, are you here?

3 MR. FORAN: Yes, I'm here. Can you

4 guys hear me?

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. Can you

6 start with your name and affiliation for the

7 record and then proceed with your comments?

8 MR. FORAN: Awesome, thank you very

9 much to everyone for taking the time to hear all

10 of our opinions on this important issue.

11 My name's Kieran Foran. I'm from

12 Trifecta Ecosystems and we're a company that is a

13 commercial aquaponics growing and we're also have

14 others in our local communities start their own

15 aquaponics or hydroponics operations.

16 So, what we did is we sort of started

17 by taking a poll of our consumers and sort of

18 seeing what they thought about the organic brand

19 and sort of what they were looking for with that

20 brand.

21 And we even chose to pursue advanced

22 certification just to sort of help the consumer
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1 understand how the crops were grown, the way that

2 communicates that crops are grown with all

3 organic ingredients and without the use of

4 harmful chemicals.

5 So, the consumers is willing to pay a

6 little bit more for these crops and support in

7 the organic farmer and the organic frame.

8 So, we polled our consumers, the word

9 they associated most with organic is the word

10 clean. You know, there isn't a bunch of, you

11 know, pesticides or herbicides in their food and

12 that's nothing in there that should be.

13 And the second word that they

14 associated with the brand was trust. Trust that

15 there's some sort of standard in place, that puts

16 this food at a higher standard than

17 conventionally grown food, whether it contains

18 GMOs or not.

19 So, that certified organic brand helps

20 the consumer avoid pesticides. But, even organic

21 foods, you know, can still end up being grown in

22 nutrient parsed soils, with some of those poorly
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1 managed aquaponics or hydroponic systems.

2 So, it's really the management and the

3 practices that lead to the healthy product and so

4 hydro and aquaponics we feel will be grown to

5 organic standards and using organic inputs.

6 Hydroponic and aquaponic facilities

7 have been eligible for organic certification for

8 over 20 years. And anything qualifies that

9 they're able to follow the same guidelines as

10 organic crops grown in the ground.

11 You know, to us, organic is really

12 more about what you don't do. You don't use

13 synthetic fertilizers or pesticides. You don't

14 use genetically or GMO seeds.

15 The other thing, is burgeoning or

16 contamination, you know, you're not getting

17 sludge on our farm and there's no radiation of

18 the products.

19 So, all that has led to a burgeoning

20 interest in organic, especially on the consumer

21 side of things, which is a real good thing.

22 But there's also a lot pressure on
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1 that standard. So, you know, you have products

2 coming into the market that they minimal level of

3 what is required sitting right next to another

4 product that's also labeled organic, but there's

5 much more.

6 So, we're just, you know, obviously

7 trying to figure out a way that we can all sort

8 of make the consumer feel good about what they're

9 getting is actually what they want.

10 We feel if all of our nutrients are

11 organic, all of our pesticides and herbicides ,

12 which we personally don't use for some

13 hydroponic, then the outcome seems to me it

14 should be organic.

15 All right, so that was my time?

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes.

17 MR. FORAN: Okay.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Any questions? We

19 currently have a question from Sue.

20 MS. BAIRD: Yes, hi, I've heard quite

21 a bit of discussion today on hydroponics,

22 aquaponics --
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: Sue, this is Michelle,

2 we can barely hear you. If you could speak up

3 please? Thanks.

4 MS. BAIRD: Is it better?

5 MS. ARSENAULT: Better, thanks.

6 MS. BAIRD: Okay. I've heard a lot of

7 discussion today on container growing and hydro,

8 aquaponic growing. Do you have any position on

9 aeroponic and would you differentiate that

10 between what we consider to be hydroponic?

11 MR. FORAN: I would not differentiate

12 it between hydroponic. The main difference is

13 just how the water gets directed to the root of

14 the plant.

15 So, in aeroponic, it's usually being

16 sprayed usually on to the roots, you know, with

17 some sort of mixer. But, the water itself, you

18 know, it being managed the same way that a

19 standard hydroponic farm would be there's just

20 usually a lot less water involved.

21 So, that can be done with synthetic

22 fertilizers or that can be done with organic
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1 fertilizers.

2 MS. BAIRD: Could I do a follow up

3 question?

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes.

5 MS. BAIRD: Okay. There's been --

6 we've heard from a lot of aquaponics people and

7 hydroponics people that said there is a lot of

8 biological activity in their systems.

9 Would you commit whether that same

10 biological activity would be present on the

11 aeroponics because it is in the air?

12 MR. FORAN: Yes, so, as long as the

13 tanks where they're holding their water is being

14 properly managed, you know, even, yes, it should

15 have the same microbiology as you would find in a

16 standard hydroponic system, but I don't have any

17 personal experience with that.

18 But, there have been numerous studies

19 and they have found that hydroponic systems and

20 aquaponic systems compare to the microbial

21 activity of compost.

22 So, there are very microbial active
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1 and there's no reason that an aeroponics system

2 should be any different.

3 MS. BAIRD: Okay, thank you.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much for

5 your comments, Kieran.

6 We're going to move on, next up, I

7 have Megan Debates followed by Peter Overgaag. 

8 Peter, if you're still here, we do not see you

9 online anymore. Please message us.

10 After Peter, we will have Joel Kelly

11 and Tim Mann.

12 Megan, are you here?

13 MS. DEBATES: Hi, Megan Debates,

14 Director of Legislative Affairs and Coalitions

15 for the Organic Trade Association.

16 I want to specifically comment on

17 NOSB's proposed guidance on excluded operations. 

18 OTA is extremely supportive of NOSB's efforts to

19 address the critical issue of organic fraud.

20 And we are generally in support of

21 this proposal. We strongly believe that a

22 regulatory modification to limit the types of
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1 operations that may be excluded from

2 certification is imperative.

3 But, in addition, we also support the

4 important role guidance and training have and

5 strengthening and clarifying the regulations.

6 Acknowledging that this is one of many

7 actions that must be taken to adequately address

8 organic fraud, OTA supports passing the proposal

9 of this meeting.

10 Going forward, we encourage NOSB to

11 work on identifying the types of operations that

12 must be certified, be it a modification to the

13 regulations along with any additional guidance

14 that may be needed within NOP 50-31 or beyond.

15 OTA has been pursuing legislative

16 changes for the next Farm Bill to give NOP the

17 tools it needs to prevent fraud.

18 Our direction is shaped by a survey we

19 conducted through which over 500 organic

20 stakeholders communicated that a top priority is

21 a stronger program to increase the transparency

22 and tracking of international trade.
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1 As a result, about a month ago,

2 Representative John Faso introduced the Organic

3 Farmer and Consumer Protection Act.

4 Most relevant to the NOSB proposal we

5 are discussing today is that the legislation

6 requires USDA to close regulatory loopholes by

7 mandating that uncertified entities such as

8 ports, brokers, importers and online auctions

9 become certified.

10 The legislation achieves this goal by

11 calling for a modification to the regulations to

12 limit the type of operations that are excluded

13 from certification.

14 The language in the bill imposes a

15 deadline of no later than one year of passage of

16 the Farm Bill for USDA to issue these

17 regulations.

18 We bring this legislative action to

19 the attention of NOSB because of the obvious and

20 important intersection it has with NOP's request

21 to NOSB to provide recommendations on improving

22 the oversight and control procedures to verify
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1 organic claims for imported products.

2 We also acknowledge that with the new

3 administration and transition taking place, that

4 rulemaking can be delayed.

5 If the NOSB decides to propose changes

6 in the future that require rulemaking to address

7 the issue of operations that are currently

8 excluded from certification, OTA supports that

9 path.

10 The legislative language proposed for

11 the Farm Bill compliments NOSB's work on this

12 issue and reinforces that action should be taken

13 on this matter sooner rather than later and

14 provides the backstop to ensure that rulemaking

15 takes place in a timely manner via congressional

16 oversight.

17 Thank you for the opportunity to

18 provide comments on this proposal and share our

19 perspective.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

21 questions for Megan?

22 (No response)
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Hearing none, Megan,

2 thank you for your comments. Up next, we have

3 Peter Overgaag. Peter, are you here?

4 MR. OVERGAAG: Yes, I am. I lost my

5 connection, but I am on the phone and ready.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, Peter, if you --

7 after Pete, we have Joel Kelly and then Tim Mann.

8 If you can start with your name and

9 affiliation.

10 MR. OVERGAAG: Okay, I'm Pete Overgaag

11 from Hollandia Produce. We're a certified

12 organic hydroponic grower of lettuce and crisp

13 products. We're an e-shop, so 100 percent

14 employee owned. So you could say our employees

15 are actually a group of 150 small farmers.

16 Through all of these discussions about

17 what should or shouldn't be called organic,

18 everyone has become so fixated on their own

19 business needs that they have seemingly all but

20 forgotten about the end consumer.

21 By limiting organic certification in

22 soil based plants only, you are essentially
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1 reducing availability in products that are

2 healthier, better for the environment, for small

3 farmers and for the climate.

4 Consumers have come to understand that

5 organic means all natural inputs and nothing

6 synthetic.

7 Our growing process results in

8 products that deliver everything consumers care

9 about when shopping for organic products. And,

10 in some cases, they are actually safer for the

11 consumer, and here's why.

12 We use all natural inputs, nothing

13 synthetic, no chemicals, no exceptions. So,

14 everything we give our clients is the same as

15 growers whose plants are in the earth. The only

16 difference that there are no grains of sand

17 around our roots, for the rest, everything's the

18 same.

19 Just like in the soil, we have the

20 whole ecosystem of natural bacteria

21 microorganisms living in -- corresponding around

22 the roots of the plants.
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1 So, all natural inputs, nothing

2 synthetic in a natural ecosystem for our plants

3 results in clean, healthy produces for our

4 consumers.

5 In many cases, our products are

6 cleaner, safer and healthier than plants grown in

7 the earth. This is because we control the inputs

8 but plants only have access to the already

9 approved natural inputs that we give them.

10 An example of this would be cadmium. 

11 There are farming regions in the USA that have

12 naturally high levels of cadmium in the soil,

13 either the natural volcanic makeup of the soil.

14 The cadmium, of course, ends up in the

15 vegetables that are growing in it.

16 And, you may have heard, cadmium is

17 referred to as the new lead. It is a heavy metal

18 known to cause learning disabilities in children

19 and many other negative health effects.

20 I urge the NOSB to keep it simple by

21 supporting modern, cleaner, more sustainable and

22 healthier measures of growing by supporting
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1 certified organic hydroponics, aquaponics,

2 aeroponics and container growing.

3 If soil growers believe their products

4 are different, they should come up with their own

5 designation such as soil grown and stop trying to

6 complicate and change the organic program.

7 Thank you.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Any questions?

9 MS. ARSENAULT: Tom, if you're

10 talking, you're on mute.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Sorry. All right, so I

12 have a few questions from Asa and Francis. I'm

13 going to stop it there, we're running out of

14 time. So, keep it short.

15 So, Asa, then Francis, then if they

16 can response short as well, that would be

17 appreciated.

18 MR. BRADMAN: Hey, just a quick

19 question about labeling. It's come up now a

20 couple times in today's discussion that, you

21 know, to have like an organic hydroponic, organic

22 aeroponic. And I wonder what you are -- an
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1 opinion on that one is.

2 MR. OVERGAAG: I think it's wiser to

3 keep it simple and instead of having lots of

4 different designations that, if farmers who are

5 growing this soil that they can mark it soil

6 grown and let the consumers decide.

7 So, I would lean in that direction.

8 MR. BRADMAN: Thank you.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Francis?

10 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, in your lettuce

11 growing, can you tell us what you use for a

12 substrate and what percent liquid feeding you

13 use?

14 MR. OVERGAAG: So, we start our seeds

15 in a small cube of it's about an inch and a half

16 by inch and a half. And it's mainly peat moss

17 and we add other nutrients, a little bit of

18 compost, castings and those type of things.

19 But, of course, the cube being so

20 small and not -- it's not a high percentage of

21 what the plants need. Because, in our case, our

22 -- most of the growing is done in the water.
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: Thank you, Pete.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, we're going to

3 have to stop the questions there and move on to

4 our next commenter.

5 Next up is Joel Kelly. Joel, are you

6 on the line with us?

7 MR. KELLY: I am, can you hear me

8 okay?

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. And then after

10 Joel will be Tim, that'll be our last commenter

11 for the day.

12 Joel, if you could start with your

13 name and affiliation and then go to your

14 comments?

15 MR. KELLY: Okay, my name is Joel

16 Kelly and I'm an organic aquaponics farmer from

17 Portland, Oregon.

18 Although I believe there are great

19 arguments to be made for organic certification in

20 aquaponics and hydroponics based on biology and

21 sustainability, I do not consider myself an

22 expert in these areas. I'm an entrepreneur and
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1 I'm classically trained at reading market trends

2 and monitoring the potential outcomes of

3 strategic decisions.

4 This will be my primary in this

5 statement.

6 In 2009, the Sahara Force Project

7 estimated the world population would climb to 9.5

8 billion people by 2050.

9 Hydroponics and aquaponics have

10 potential to help feed this growing population.

11 This as well also estimated that the

12 hydroponics food industry has grown an average of

13 4.5 percent per year for the past five years and

14 that number is expected to grow exponentially

15 over the next five years.

16 Basically, it's clear that the

17 hydroponics industry is here to stay and the

18 industry is going to take a significant market

19 share over the next 10 to 20 years.

20 You, the members of the NOSB, have the

21 responsibility to help better decide what this

22 new potentially massive industry is going to look
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1 like.

2 Some seem to want to paint the picture

3 that this issue is about big ag farms wanting to

4 steam the organic market from, quote, unquote,

5 real organic farmers.

6 Like the soil farming industry, there

7 are farms in the soilless industry if you use

8 methods requiring chemicals and unsustainable

9 practices.

10 However, many certified organic

11 soilless farms like mine, a family owned farm

12 with 15 employees see aquaponics as a way to

13 provide healthy chemical-free and non-GMOs

14 sustainability grown produce.

15 To communicate these values to our

16 customers, we've become certified organic and

17 there's no other way to communicate these values

18 on the market today like the term certified

19 organic.

20 If we weren't able to use the word

21 organic to communicate this to our customers, we

22 would lose our advantage against farms in our
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1 industry who use worst practices and have a lower

2 price.

3 Farms like mine would then be forced

4 to either go out of business or sacrifice our

5 values in order to compete.

6 Think for a moment about what this

7 would create. We need you to consider the

8 possibility that a large portion of our food

9 supply someday could come from soilless farms.

10 So, we want this industry to be

11 dominated by farms using low costs, unsustainable

12 methods with no incentive to use organic

13 practices, an industry in which the only

14 incentive is to create the lowest priced products

15 regardless of the quality or what it does to the

16 environment.

17 This to me seems short-sighted. In

18 today's day and age, we need to encourage as many

19 people as possible to grow organically. I think

20 we can all agree that increasing the number of

21 farmers who use organic methods, that are good

22 for the planet and the consumer would be better
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1 for everyone.

2 I propose that we allow soilless

3 farmers to use the word organic on their label

4 and require that they label their products with

5 their growing method.

6 Let the consumers decide if they want

7 to buy -- if they don't want to buy our produce

8 because it's grown without soil. I can tell you

9 from experience handing out pamphlets, talking to

10 customers and giving tours to thousands of people

11 that our customers love what we do.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Joel. Any

14 questions for Joel?

15 (No response)

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Seeing none, we'll move

17 on to our last speaker just under the wire. Tim

18 Mann, are you on the line?

19 MR. -- I am on the line. Can you

20 hear me?

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. Tim, if

22 you can start with your name and affiliation and
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1 then go into your comments.

2 MR. MANN: Great, my name's Tim Mann. 

3 I have a farm called Friendly Aquaponics,

4 Incorporated in Hawaii with my wife and we have

5 been aquaponics farmers for the last ten years.

6 My wife's farm was the first in the

7 world to get USDA organically certified through

8 Oregon Tilth in 2008 and certified again two

9 years later to the Organic Certifiers in Southern

10 California, two of the biggest certifiers in the

11 U.S.

12 We've taught hundreds of students in

13 our commercial aquaponics courses how to get

14 organically certified. And many of them have.

15 If aquaponics was not inherently

16 certifiable, then I believe these two certifying

17 agencies would never have certified us nor any of

18 our students.

19 In fact, aquaponics may be more

20 ecologically sound and sustainable than organic

21 soil growing because of the following reasons.

22 Number one, we recirculate all our
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1 water and use as little as five percent of what's

2 used in soil growing.

3 Number two, we use much less energy

4 that growing in the soil, possibly as little as

5 one-quarter as much. And energy used is

6 electrical and can be provided from renewable

7 energy sources. You don't use any diesel,

8 period. And we don't pollute.

9 Three, because we grow so densely, we

10 have land area requirements of only one-tenth as

11 much as growing in soil.

12 Four, because we don't need soil to

13 plant, we can use infertile or marginal land that

14 the soil farmers can't use.

15 Separate from this testimony, I'd be

16 happy to send you our research and course that

17 illustrates how aquaponics and build soil within

18 five years from soil that was previously all rock

19 and gravel.

20 Next, we can farm on rooftops and

21 inside buildings and where our communities need

22 the food and where no fields exist for soil
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1 farming.

2 Next, organic soil growing depends on

3 the farmer's integrity to the produce to be truly

4 organic. And, according to some of the USDA's

5 own reports, a number of importers and even some

6 domestic producers cheat.

7 In addition, there is the issue of

8 toxic conventional over spray on to organic

9 fields from aerial sprayers which you heard about

10 earlier in this conversation, which soil growers

11 cannot prevent.

12 In contrast, aquaponics is mostly done

13 inside greenhouse so to protect the crops with a

14 barrier from any aerial spraying.

15 Also, it's impossible for an unethical

16 aquaponics farmers to cheat their system because

17 their fish would die if we used any unapproved

18 substances.

19 Last, aquaponics grows protein also in

20 the form of fish which is very difficult to do in

21 the soil.

22 With the NOSB denies organic
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1 certification for aquaponics, we may end up in a

2 long series of legal battles when I hear you've 

3 deniers and the organic aquaponics community. 

4 And no one needs that.

5 I'm almost done, by relaxing, letting

6 go of our fears and working together. Don't we

7 all have better things to do with our time?

8 And, finally, thanks for your time.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Tim. Any

10 questions for Tim?

11 (No response)

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Seeing none, Tim, I

13 would appreciate if you could send that research

14 that you mentioned to Michelle.

15 MR. MANN: I'm happy to.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: And that concludes our

17 last public comment. So, we're just over our

18 time here at 1:03 Pacific Time.

19 I want to thank all members of the

20 public for your thoughtful comments and would

21 like to thank the members of the Board for their

22 time and questions, their attention as well.
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1 And, lastly, thank the National

2 Organic Program for facilitating this meeting. I

3 think it went fairly smoothly.

4 So, with that, we'll be standing in

5 recess until our next public comment session on

6 Thursday at 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

7 Thank you, everyone.

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you. Thanks,

9 Tom, for everything, great job. Thank you

10 everyone for keeping it nice and quiet out there.

11 All right, I'm going to disconnect the

12 line.

13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

14 went off the record at 4:04 p.m.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

A-B-D-E-L-J-A-L-I-L

93:20

A-Dae 1:20 9:17,20

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136:21 146:8 157:19

167:9 182:20

above-entitled 189:13

absolutely 25:17 52:7

151:13

academia 23:19

academic 103:1 105:5

accept 22:8

acceptance 131:12

accepted 110:10,10,14

access 6:1 11:5 24:3

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accomplished 17:17

accredited 52:10

accumulate 69:12

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achieves 173:10

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acknowledge 21:2

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address 26:16 27:7

29:10 36:1 55:10

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addressed 32:19 54:3

103:20 162:18

addresses 23:8

addressing 88:13

adds 28:10

adequate 12:21 19:17

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172:7

Adjourn 3:16

administration 35:2

174:3

administratively 11:19

admit 78:7

adopting 106:21

adoption 85:15

advanced 165:21

advancements 42:15

advantage 182:22

adverse 142:3

advice 5:18

Advisory 2:12 5:3

advocate 65:19

aerial 162:14,16 187:9

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aeroponic 53:15 169:9

169:15 178:22

aeroponics 170:11

171:1 178:2

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affect 38:12 116:9

affidavit 36:5

affiliated 51:9

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115:16 118:1 121:12

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afternoon 56:14 83:13

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agencies 185:17

agenda 35:1

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agonizing 71:1

agree 53:5 54:2 119:22

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99:17,19,22

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113:10 141:20 150:9

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annotation 116:16

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annual 122:10 123:13

127:11,12 141:11,16

144:16

answer 46:3 127:20

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anybody 17:20

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approximately 56:16

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86:20 88:14 89:13

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169:8 170:20

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41:5 42:5 49:19 50:10

87:14 89:7,15 91:21

92:10,15 117:6

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185:13,15,19 186:17

187:12,16,19 188:1,3

area 36:7 43:12,13

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110:10 120:8 124:14

150:5 186:10

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54:20 110:6 118:19

118:20 120:7 122:19

124:6 136:1 150:19

150:19 180:22

arena 72:9

arenas 51:4

argue 48:11

argument 66:10 141:2

arguments 180:19

Arizona 72:1

Arsenault 2:12 3:9 8:7

8:11,14,17,19 9:1,3,6

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10:3,10 14:4 25:11,14

43:11 62:6,11,20 63:1

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asking 49:1 75:3 93:17

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aspect 72:17 73:2

aspects 155:15

assert 78:20 79:12

assess 58:6 104:10

assist 5:5

Assistant 2:15 115:18

Associate 102:18

associated 46:12 51:8

166:9,14

Association 40:2 64:3

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atmosphere 66:6 73:11

attack 16:22

attention 58:5 84:19

105:4 173:19 188:22

attitudes 77:21

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audit 84:11

auditable 36:4,9

auspices 5:3

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availability 142:2 145:8

176:1

available 8:3 87:8 145:3

145:6 152:14 157:13

158:16

avenues 159:9

average 181:12

avoid 15:22 59:14

95:16 166:20

aware 68:17 74:17

Awesome 165:8

B

back 22:15 33:15 38:10

38:22 51:1 66:6

100:12,22 124:11

141:4 146:16,18

148:19 158:12

backed 88:18

background 111:5

144:10

backstop 174:14

bacteria 88:15 92:4,20

176:20

Baden-Mayer 63:20

64:1,2 68:5 69:3 70:5

72:14 75:16 77:18

80:6 82:2,12

bag 99:6

bags 97:12 100:21

Baird 1:13 8:8,10 78:17

81:9 82:7 114:1

168:20 169:4,6 170:2

170:5 171:3

barely 169:2

barrier 187:14

base 81:18 122:2

based 25:3 27:21 30:4

50:13 94:14 96:18

118:11 119:12 122:9

124:10 140:18 143:1

144:3,5,15,16 145:14

175:22 180:20

BASF 20:22 23:21 27:4

basically 109:10 131:1

151:4 181:16

basis 13:16 106:2

144:20 147:1 156:21

bathing 80:12

battles 188:2

beans 94:15

becoming 159:12

bedding 53:20

beginning 6:15 136:8

behalf 5:18

Behar 1:14 8:12,13

25:21 26:1,17 34:18

34:20 35:11 47:16

60:21 61:1,18 97:6

98:17 129:9

behold 99:7

belief 11:14

believe 47:19,21 54:7

56:9 69:3 74:16 95:5

104:19 133:11 134:4

143:5 171:21 178:3

180:18 185:16

belts 19:7,8

beneficial 107:8,16

108:3

benefit 14:18 28:7 42:8

42:10,18,22 98:7

158:9

benefits 21:16,18,22

22:21 23:7 43:4 75:13

78:12 104:12 107:5

107:22 162:10,12

Berkeley 107:14

berries 33:11 71:22

149:1

berry 140:21

best 13:6 58:17 66:4,10

82:3 95:14 105:7

126:9 132:6 154:18

better 13:9,9 23:17

46:17 48:13 50:20

51:6 57:21 58:1,6

60:5 63:5 85:3 150:13

157:5 169:4,5 176:2

181:21 183:22 188:7

beyond 49:1,7 72:12

80:16 172:14

big 29:9 41:9 88:21

145:7 150:8,8 151:19

182:3

bigger 71:11

biggest 118:12 152:2

155:11 185:10

bill 172:16 173:14,16

174:11

billion 181:8

bin 37:3,8

binomial 116:12

bins 19:1,1,5

biodegradable 23:6,12

24:1,3,6,14 27:8 29:6

29:12 30:10,14 55:12

biodegrades 26:3

biodiversity 54:22

104:8,11,21 106:20

106:21 107:4,22

124:2 129:10

biological 40:22 81:18

123:9 124:20 129:1,3

170:8,10

biologically 79:13

biologics 58:2

biology 88:18,20 92:1

93:3,4 154:6 180:20

bioplastic 26:2

biopolymer 26:11

biopolymers 20:22

27:4

bird 12:22

birds 107:17

bit 7:1 18:9,12 49:19

61:11 106:19 111:12

119:13 144:22 147:11

150:13 152:5 154:1

156:22 157:2,4

158:21 166:6 168:21

179:17

blackberries 122:7

blanket 144:1,14 146:3

146:8

blend 73:20

blight 16:21,21,22 17:9

17:9 18:19

Blue 94:12,13 95:3 99:2

blueberries 122:6

151:16 159:6,7

board 1:3,8,10 4:5,9,12

4:15 5:2,6,13,19 7:10
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13:15,17 24:5,7 27:5

30:18,22 52:16 67:18

70:19 75:15 76:15,16

82:16 86:7 87:15 88:8

90:22 93:11 101:5

106:12 108:6,16

110:19 117:5,16

118:7,9 119:4 121:4

125:5 131:6 134:21

164:17 188:21

Board's 4:16

boards 105:12

body 27:18

bomb 76:11

boost 129:5

botched 86:13

bound 142:13

Bradman 1:14 8:15,16

24:11,11,18 25:6

70:22 74:22 119:10

119:20 120:11 130:17

132:1 147:9 149:7

178:18 179:8

brand 99:5 100:22

165:18,20 166:14,19

brands 101:3

break 78:2

breaking 19:13 148:9

154:13

breeding 12:16 13:1,4,5

Brian 26:21 31:5,5

39:12,16,21 43:6,7,7

44:11 45:7 46:15

BRIDGET 2:20

brief 70:15

briefly 119:3

BRINES 2:14

bring 5:11 51:14 61:2

103:8 173:18

brings 42:3

broad 45:21

broader 48:22 51:4

broken 154:7

broker 137:6

brokers 137:12,16

173:8

Brothers 140:18

brushes 19:7

Buie 1:12 8:17,18

build 47:4 186:17

build-up 16:1

building 45:13,14 46:7

buildings 186:21

builds 92:3

built 58:16

bulk 33:18

bunch 166:10

bundled 8:2

burden 33:21 36:18

53:8 147:4

burgeoning 167:15,19

buried 126:16

burned 22:13

business 7:9 27:4 42:2

44:15 175:19 183:4

busy 14:22

butcher 62:3 93:19

101:17

butchered 86:13

butchering 62:15

button 5:17 6:11 30:20

buy 20:2 40:7 47:18

64:21 65:8 97:11

162:3 184:7,7

buying 97:12

buzzer 7:15,19

bypassing 80:9

C

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 3:1

CACS's 15:4

cadmium 177:10,12,14

177:16

calcium 155:18

calculate 71:19 74:9

123:22

calculated 106:1

calculating 72:8 74:15

California 71:3 72:2

84:20 140:19 141:18

142:18 158:15 185:10

call 3:8 8:1,6 35:1 82:22

160:20

called 4:11 6:17 7:6

36:5 175:17 185:3

calling 6:21 173:11

cancer 65:3 80:20

capacity 73:4 76:4

carbon 49:11 66:1,5,5

66:15,17 67:8 71:20

72:8 73:5,10,17,21

74:9,15 75:3,13,18

76:5,8,10 77:7 105:20

106:3,3,8

care 40:10,14 47:17,21

77:16 111:10 150:9

176:8

careful 95:13 99:13

carefully 11:16

carry 163:18

carrying 35:4

case 30:10 37:21

179:21

cases 22:13 28:9 59:19

176:10 177:5

castings 179:18

catch 126:17

catch-all 139:5

cause 65:1,20 78:14

177:18

caveat 67:14

CCOF 31:16 34:3,9

37:10 109:8 111:18

114:19 115:18 116:4

116:10,15,17 117:1,4

118:4,10 121:15,22

122:21 125:19 130:19

131:14

celery 104:4

cell 32:8

Center 65:9 77:20,20

102:19

centered 137:20

central 72:15

certain 136:5 141:8,15

150:10

certainly 46:5 48:4,19

69:7 71:2,10 72:7

77:1

certifiable 185:16

certification 11:4 27:18

34:13 42:6 52:8,10

56:15 61:5 85:20

109:8 118:3 121:14

133:15 136:1,22

165:22 167:7 172:2

173:13 174:8 175:21

180:19 188:1

certified 33:7 36:21

38:4,5 44:3 52:15

53:14 55:9 56:19 85:7

118:18,21 122:13

125:12 126:4 129:17

132:9 136:15 137:8,9

138:1 166:19 172:12

173:9 175:11 178:1

182:10,16,18 185:7,8

185:14,17

certifier 59:11 110:12

110:16

certifiers 34:7 57:13

85:5 98:3 137:2,5

185:9,10

certifies 37:5

certify 37:11 52:11

56:16

certifying 185:16

cetera 72:18,20 151:6

CFI 57:21

chain 72:17 135:19,21

138:15,17

chair 1:9,11,12,13 5:12

chairing 5:14

challenge 29:19

challenges 12:7 22:4

29:4 142:19

challenging 59:16,21

136:2

change 47:7 65:18

73:16 88:21 105:19

106:7 133:9 164:1

178:6

changed 120:3

changes 11:12,18,20

35:2,3 42:12 116:16

136:6 138:15 146:1,2

146:2 172:16 174:5

changing 101:2,3

characteristic 26:7

chard 80:19

chat 56:6

cheaper 83:22

cheaply 152:16

cheat 187:6,16

check 70:7 160:6

chemical-free 182:13

chemicals 166:4

176:13 182:8

chicken 49:5

children 20:3 177:18

children's 160:22

chime 70:15

chlorine 15:15 16:3

18:9,21 19:6

chlorines 15:17 20:5,6

choose 118:21 120:9

161:13

choosing 96:18

chopped 149:2

chose 139:12 165:21

circumstances 57:17

cisgenesis 32:7

cite 65:6

cited 90:10

cites 38:10

citizens 21:7

citrus 103:22 108:8

claims 77:1 174:1

clarification 7:12

109:12 120:12

clarified 32:13

clarify 109:14 116:7

144:21

clarifying 52:20 55:14

56:20 172:5

clarity 28:10 50:5

109:16

classically 181:1

classified 116:2

classify 116:4

clay 159:4
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clean 19:3 166:10 177:3

cleaner 177:6,21

clear 38:2 39:4 42:4

45:19,20 57:14 75:16

110:9 141:7 181:16

clearly 45:20 46:5 48:7

134:12 141:10

clients 113:6 176:14

climate 49:4 65:18 66:2

73:16 105:19 106:7

164:1 176:3

climb 181:7

close 67:5 99:16 173:6

closed-loop 42:19

closing 3:13 13:13 47:9

cloth 129:13,14

cloths 149:11

co-evolved 80:10

CO2 66:6

coalition 10:21 40:1

65:19,20

Coalitions 171:14

cocoa 127:13,13,17

129:3

coconut 127:1

code 43:12,13 102:5

Cody 63:17 82:22 83:3

83:4

cold 33:9,10 35:21 36:5

120:19

collaborate 102:22

collaborations 27:16

colleagues 5:9

columnist 66:19

combat 136:4

combination 127:13

combined 137:13

come 72:22 80:4 87:19

112:10 176:4 178:4

178:19 183:9

comes 76:15 92:4

99:17 104:22 107:22

112:16

comfortable 71:6 101:1

coming 7:1 19:2,4 57:5

91:12 107:13 111:19

168:2

comment 1:5 4:9 5:20

6:15,18 7:14 14:16

31:1 32:15 38:9 52:14

55:22 57:1 64:8,13

67:21 71:12 72:7 91:7

98:15 117:10,11

118:6 121:17 130:20

131:14,17 171:16

188:17 189:5

commenter 7:4,13,15

7:22 180:4,10

commenters 7:6,17

commenting 39:22

115:3 121:19

comments 3:11,13 4:14

5:5 7:13 12:8 18:8

29:16,17 34:10 44:9

51:20 55:12 56:20

57:18 59:6,17 60:3

61:12 78:18 86:3,10

87:1 90:21 93:12

100:7 111:9,12

130:22 131:12,21

135:14 140:5,15

160:15 164:17,20

165:7 171:5 174:18

175:2 180:14 185:1

188:20

commercial 23:6 79:6

165:13 185:13

commercially 158:19

commit 94:22 170:9

commitment 95:1

commitments 21:4

committed 17:21 78:14

committee 2:12 5:4

46:19 66:13 88:5 95:5

Committee's 59:8

committees 105:12

communicate 182:15

182:17,21

communicated 172:20

communicates 102:21

166:2

communication 107:14

communities 44:5

105:6 165:14 186:21

community 15:2 17:19

94:22 95:2 139:8

162:8 188:3

company 140:20

165:12

comparable 124:15

163:16

compare 156:10 170:20

compared 123:5

comparison 156:1

compatible 120:10

compete 183:5

competition 44:14

competitors 100:17

complaint 122:19

complaints 137:14

complete 122:18

completely 155:15

complexities 89:16

complexity 51:9

compliance 20:12 53:7

53:12 59:12 84:10

complicate 178:6

compliments 174:11

complying 142:22

component 91:13

123:8 128:18

compost 50:22 51:3

89:2,5,10 124:19,20

126:18 127:3,14,18

128:4,11,11,15,18

129:4 146:17 149:3

153:4,5,6,15,18 154:6

154:7,11,12 170:21

179:18

compostable 55:9

composted 124:12

147:17

composting 27:11

comprise 14:19

compromise 90:6

131:4

computer 63:12,13

concentrations 65:1

80:15

concern 113:10 150:8

152:22 162:5 163:10

concerned 34:6 45:3

71:18 78:19 87:15

113:7 161:17 163:1

concerns 44:9 59:10,17

149:9

conclude 30:13

concludes 43:5 188:16

conclusion 90:5 96:13

condition 25:4

conditions 118:12

conduct 77:19

conducted 172:19

confidence 17:12 44:18

95:10

confident 132:16

confused 114:3

confusion 32:10

Congress 10:22

congressional 11:11

174:15

conjunction 145:16

connect 64:5

connection 175:5

consequences 66:15

conservation 104:21

consider 48:12 58:21

86:2 116:20 162:8

164:2,9 169:10

180:21 183:7

consideration 28:22

33:3 60:16 105:1

159:18 162:19

considerations 57:16

considered 30:3 104:7

considering 70:6

consistently 55:18

150:15

constructed 42:19

consult 4:20

consultant 79:12

consume 26:4

consumer 16:6 17:12

20:1 40:5 44:18,22

45:17 46:3,22 47:4

71:6 77:8 96:18 161:3

165:22 166:20 167:20

168:8 173:3 175:20

176:11 183:22

consumers 40:4,10,14

41:1,6 42:16 47:17

48:19 49:12 64:3,4

65:6,15 66:20 76:18

76:21 77:14,15,21

78:8 162:11,15

163:13 165:17 166:5

166:8 176:4,8 177:4

179:6 184:6

consumers' 95:10

consumption 21:21

163:19

contact 19:13 61:17

87:19

contacted 19:10

contacting 38:20

contain 80:15

container 28:21 54:1

64:12 77:2 105:16

122:9,13,18,21 123:3

123:10,16,21 124:4,7

124:10,12,15,18

125:12 126:22 127:10

131:2 132:8 133:16

133:22 134:7 141:3

143:19 144:17 152:4

154:2 155:3,10,16

156:2,8,9,18 157:1,14

157:17 158:8,10

169:7 178:2

container-style 50:16

containers 33:18 50:17

55:9 67:1 123:14,19

124:11 128:16 132:11

143:4 147:18 148:14

containing 67:9

contains 166:17

contaminate 164:12

contamination 59:15

161:22 167:16

content 22:7 67:9

context 32:8

continual 53:11
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continue 24:2 85:16

96:22 108:19 139:13

164:21

continued 84:7 108:14

118:17

continues 12:1 64:17

67:3

continuing 118:7

continuous 122:4

contract 85:21

contradicts 82:9

contrast 187:12

control 16:20 17:8

18:19 19:15,18,19

141:7 163:7 173:22

177:7

controlled 15:19 43:2

convened 1:9

conveniently 102:21

conventional 48:16

68:22 69:4 70:3 72:16

73:6,8 78:20 79:4,5

79:22 96:2,3,11

100:13 137:17 155:4

155:6,7,9,16,19 156:8

187:8

conventionally 166:17

conversation 187:10

conversations 111:6

144:10

convert 15:5 88:16

converting 34:2

converts 92:4

convey 139:3

conveyor 19:7

cool 92:7

copper 12:9 16:19 17:8

coppers 16:16

core 127:13,13,17

129:3

cores 127:1

corn 94:15 97:17,17

99:4

correct 126:8 127:12

128:8 133:11 134:17

153:11,12

corrected 142:8

correctly 97:1,16

corresponding 176:21

Coryneum 16:21 17:9

cost 48:15

cost-share 11:4

costly 151:17

costs 46:21 104:12

183:11

cotton 71:21

cough 120:20

counter 54:12

counterpoint 90:10

countries 66:4 89:20

country 17:15 41:11

161:7

counts 130:5

couple 6:8 114:19

178:20

course 37:2 74:2,10

97:9 149:13 177:14

179:19 186:16

courses 185:13

cover 46:9 123:15

150:13

covered 38:21 80:7

91:17 150:19

covering 54:22 149:10

150:4

crafted 11:16

crazy 90:4

create 43:2 45:1 54:21

183:7,14

created 23:3

creates 142:1,4,10,17

143:3

creating 32:17 84:22

90:2 142:7 148:11

creation 103:6

credible 112:2

crisis 99:18

crisp 175:12

criteria 48:12

critical 12:10 52:14

128:18 151:8 171:19

critically 44:20 45:2

critics 11:11

crop 15:16,20 16:11,15

55:4,6 56:19 67:2,13

69:8 94:19 121:20

141:4 144:3,5 146:2,2

146:15 164:4,8

crops 1:13 16:22 29:8

41:20 44:13 46:9,9

53:18 64:11 66:13

95:5 108:2 116:22

122:6,10 123:13,15

123:17,20 127:12

132:10 141:16,17

144:16 147:21 163:12

166:1,2,6 167:10

187:13

crossing 85:9

crunch 13:22

CSA 48:4

cube 179:15,19

cucumbers 122:11

cultivar 159:2

cultivars 140:22

cups 19:8

curing 104:5

curious 71:9 129:15

134:1 149:16

current 11:14 23:6

29:13 57:11 70:10

currently 14:21 15:9,12

15:15 17:3 52:11

64:20 81:15 96:2

117:7 118:10 119:15

137:1 168:19 174:7

curtail 59:2

custom 57:8

customers 46:4 48:5

92:12 182:16,21

184:10,11

cutting 18:19 72:18

cycle 19:13 123:12

124:14 128:10,12

147:15

cycling 40:18

D

D.C 11:1

daily 15:12 54:13

dairy 56:18 85:10

damaged 58:12

Dan 1:21 9:20,22

dangerous 11:19 66:7

69:12 95:18

data 13:9 70:6 116:13

Dave 1:16 9:6,9 152:19

154:19

David 39:15 43:9,16,16

43:20,20,22 44:3

47:15,16 49:17,17

dawn 41:3 45:8,10

day 14:13 64:6 141:12

148:7 180:11 183:18

daylight 90:2

De 1:15 9:1,2

deadline 173:15

deal 11:7 33:6

dealer 94:17

dealing 99:19

Deanwood 131:19

debate 11:10 72:13,15

77:12

Debates 160:3 165:1

171:7,13,13

decide 134:5,14 151:10

157:19 179:6 181:21

184:6

decided 137:17

decides 174:5

decision 93:7,8 151:10

151:19

decisions 12:7 42:3

143:7 181:3

deck 6:22 20:19 26:20

declarations 143:1

decreasing 158:15,16

dedication 52:17

defer 131:15

deficit 142:7 161:8

define 29:18 30:8 57:8

105:6

defined 29:21 30:12

32:6

defines 27:21

defining 60:6

definitely 88:10 138:19

degrees 164:5

Dehne 43:10,21 52:1,3

52:7,8 56:1

delayed 174:4

deliver 23:7 176:8

demand 21:19 41:14

47:4,5 51:13

DeMinter 43:22 52:1

56:3,9,14,15 60:7,19

60:22 61:14,21

democracy 47:12

demonstrates 23:17

124:22

demonstrating 28:14

deniers 188:3

denies 187:22

densely 186:9

DEPARTMENT 1:1

depend 160:22

dependent 128:22

145:17

depending 124:16

133:5 150:5 164:9

depends 25:2 146:13

150:20 152:1 153:20

187:2

depth 46:11

derives 67:7

described 29:5 155:3

describes 155:1

descriptions 123:1

design 37:9

designated 33:20 36:7

designation 178:5

designations 179:4

Despite 21:22 85:17

detail 39:1 75:9 123:5

detailed 59:6 123:1

details 28:10

determine 116:15

develop 103:22 104:1

129:22

developer 124:5

developing 104:3

development 21:1 27:3
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27:9 41:8 103:11,14

developments 27:19

device 6:11

DEVON 2:18

dialogue 13:15,17

82:21

die 58:11 87:5 92:2

187:17

died 88:19

diesel 186:7

differ 156:20

difference 87:17 91:7

145:7 155:2 156:4,6,7

169:12 176:16

differences 50:6 155:11

157:11

different 15:22 16:3

18:16 19:9,12,14,18

24:21,22 25:6,7,7

26:12 38:19 46:11

57:16 71:3 89:13 93:4

96:14 104:10 106:6

107:3 130:6 131:6

155:15 156:11 171:2

178:4 179:4

differentiate 169:9,11

differentiation 79:2

differs 71:10

difficult 116:14 132:15

144:1,13 159:12

187:20

digestion 29:16 30:1

diligence 84:7

dioxide 66:5 73:21

dip 20:6

direct 38:14 54:13

directed 169:13

direction 57:7 138:18

139:13 172:18 179:7

Directive 137:4

directly 103:20 131:18

149:22

Director 2:11,15 4:6

52:9 64:2 102:18

131:19 160:18 171:14

disabilities 177:18

disagreement 105:5

disappointed 32:22

disclose 7:8

disconnect 189:11

discontinued 45:6

discrepancies 110:15

136:22

discrete 85:2

discussed 23:5,11

57:12

discussing 173:5

discussion 28:20 32:14

32:18 33:2 53:22

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135:22 141:5 161:19

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operators 85:6

opinion 39:4 95:22

179:1

opinions 89:11 131:7

165:10

opportunities 21:2

159:14

opportunity 4:13 14:16

21:3 52:13 57:1 64:9

117:9 118:5 174:17

opposed 74:6 81:21

119:21

opposite 99:3

option 104:17 112:8

options 112:2

oral 14:16

order 6:16 15:22 17:8

22:17 101:4 130:13

142:12 162:10 183:5

Oregon 135:3,12,17

136:17 137:8 180:17

185:8

organically 49:8 88:15

92:16 158:19 183:19

185:7,14

organics 14:18 17:22

18:1,3 26:13 28:16

29:14 45:2 46:14

47:18 161:5 162:22

organisms 80:12

organization 27:20

73:15 77:8 102:20

131:8

organizations 10:22

163:12

originally 51:16

OS 52:19

OSP 111:22 118:11

122:18,22 123:3

OSPs 123:5

OTA 171:18 172:8,15

174:8

outbreak 58:8

outbreaks 58:21

outcome 168:13

outcomes 28:8 29:2

181:2

outdoor 13:2 124:4

outlet 22:11

outline 59:17

outlined 84:11 86:3

output 29:21

outside 54:19 91:21

124:8,13 130:9

136:17

Overgaag 165:1 171:7

175:3,4,10,10 179:2

179:14
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overlooked 83:21

oversight 84:13 173:22

174:16

owned 175:14 182:11

Oxnard 140:18

oxytetracycline 16:19

oxytocin 111:21,22

112:2,5 113:3,16

ozone 20:8

P

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

4:1

p.m 1:9 4:2 189:6,14

Pacific 188:18

packing 19:2,4 37:17

page 98:22 99:17

pain 29:7 37:12

paint 47:10 182:2

pamphlets 184:9

panacea 17:7

parallel 47:11

parameters 57:8

parasite 58:5 110:6,11

110:14 114:3

parasites 58:13,18

parasiticide 55:15

parasiticides 56:21

59:2 60:6

parents 164:9

parsed 166:22

part 4:15 45:4 51:2 61:2

61:9 109:19 110:6

138:2 147:19

PARTICIPANT 70:14,20

participants 27:6

participation 4:11

11:17 65:22

particular 12:18 29:3

32:6 104:9 159:1

particularly 18:15

21:17 59:16 65:16

80:18 103:9 104:20

145:12

partners 11:1

parts 66:7

party 38:13

pass 130:2

passage 173:15

passed 74:14

passing 172:8

passionate 65:16

159:16

pasture 13:2 49:9 58:22

85:18

pastured 49:6

path 95:16 174:9

pathogens 16:2 19:14

19:19

paths 103:18

patient 57:5

pattern 101:3

PATTILLO 2:18

Paul 2:11 3:3 4:5 5:16

Paula 131:19

PAVONE 2:17

pay 166:5

paying 90:3

PE 23:8,13

peat 127:17 129:4

179:16

Pennsylvania 84:21

people 42:3,11 45:15

45:16,19 46:15 47:12

48:6 51:14 61:10 63:8

64:5,21 65:10 68:17

71:2,3 74:10 79:21

97:9,11 133:1 151:15

152:8 170:6,7 181:8

183:19 184:10

peppers 122:11

peracetic 18:21

perceive 48:10

percent 22:20 65:11,12

72:21 76:21,21 77:10

78:4,5 81:14 91:22

125:13,14,18,20

126:7 128:2 133:18

134:2 141:11,13

143:20 145:21,21

148:1 153:5,17,17,19

154:11 162:21 163:16

164:3,7,10 175:13

179:12 181:13 186:1

percentage 65:5 125:14

125:22 126:3 129:16

153:6 179:20

perception 29:19 45:17

46:4 47:17 76:16

perennial 122:6 123:17

127:16 141:17 144:15

146:15 147:21

perfect 17:10 160:13

perform 98:13 99:9

performance 30:4,8,11

95:19

performance-based

96:19

performances 23:13

period 6:15,19 32:15

153:7 186:8

perlite 127:17

permanently 58:12

permission 35:11

permitted 137:11

peroxide 18:22

person 89:7 111:20

162:2

personal 170:17

personally 47:20

125:17 168:12

perspective 108:1

129:6 132:14 161:3

174:19

pertaining 7:9

pest 104:2 107:8

pesticide 47:20 109:11

162:4

pesticides 40:17 76:17

155:20 166:11,20

167:13 168:11

Pete 175:7,10 180:1

Peter 108:22 115:1,4,8

115:15,17 117:12,13

117:16 165:1 171:7,8

171:10 175:3,3,6

Peter's 115:3

petition 29:17 64:16,17

petitions 29:13

petroleum 26:5

petroleum-based 26:12

Pew 65:9 77:19,20

philosophy 75:6

phone 7:2,3,4 31:3

39:14 56:5 62:5,16

63:12 93:18 115:13

115:13 140:8 175:5

photographs 123:1

photos 130:8,8,12

phrase 75:17

picked 26:8

picture 29:10 85:8

155:12 182:2

pictures 55:13

piece 48:7 78:1 80:8

150:16 158:22 159:8

pigs 49:5

pilot 32:20

pioneer 99:4 100:18

pipelines 85:9

place 11:10 28:11 58:7

58:18 130:18 145:5

157:6 166:15 174:3

174:15

placed 83:16 123:19

placement 60:16 61:16

placements 57:18

places 33:17 41:10 51:6

plan 38:10 58:6,7 85:14

119:17 120:7,8

129:10

planet 21:9 22:3 28:1

42:13 183:22

planned 58:8

plans 57:9

plant 13:5 23:20 26:8

32:8 46:9 69:11 80:11

87:9,17,22 89:13 91:8

91:13,14 103:10

124:4 142:3,6 143:7

145:3,6,8 146:17,18

146:20 148:3,13,16

152:14 153:10 154:5

154:8,11,13,15,17

156:5 157:3 169:14

186:13

plant's 92:21 141:11

planted 129:17

planting 53:9 141:12,21

142:1 148:2

plantings 129:18 130:9

plants 26:9 46:13 53:20

54:17 66:22 80:16

87:4,19 88:11 89:13

92:11 155:1 175:22

176:15,22 177:2,6,8

179:21

plastic 55:8,11 149:11

plastics 149:19

playing 84:9

please 4:20 6:5,8 14:12

21:7,15 22:6 23:5

50:14 80:5 82:1 84:7

86:2 93:21 114:13

144:9 169:3 171:9

pleased 48:20 103:9

point 7:20 66:7 70:1

90:9 96:1 100:1

129:21 150:12 154:4

pointed 66:14

points 19:18 29:7 69:8

90:11 95:11 143:22

153:13 159:17 162:8

policies 136:5

policy 2:17,20 56:16

115:18 131:19 136:9

136:13,20 137:3,6

138:13

Political 64:2

poll 165:17

polled 166:8

pollinator 124:5 129:18

pollute 186:8

polyethylene 21:16

22:1,4,18 29:4 149:15

Pool 102:14 108:22

117:18 118:2,2

119:15,22 120:13

poorly 166:22

population 181:7,10

portion 150:5 151:19

183:8
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portions 123:22

Portland 180:17

ports 173:8

pose 29:5

posed 53:22

posing 11:11

position 57:2 73:16

114:4 169:8

possession 44:22

possibility 162:9 183:8

possible 11:12 27:13

32:20 74:5 109:22

141:15 183:19

possibly 50:17 136:7

186:4

Post 66:18

posting 13:19

pot 146:17,18 147:12

148:1,8,11 150:1

152:7 153:4,22

potassium 115:22

116:1

potential 65:17 75:13

181:2,10

potentially 51:3 109:16

112:18 149:10 181:22

pots 51:6 53:19 149:17

153:15

potting 50:17

poultry 12:18

powder 104:4

practical 142:16

practice 67:7 151:18

practices 12:21 17:5

27:12,13,22 28:17

54:21 58:1 66:12

67:10 104:11,13

106:22 107:3 109:22

110:2 122:13 130:13

139:20 141:7 167:3

182:9 183:1,13

precedent-setting

59:21

precise 152:6,11

predators 107:8,16,18

108:3

prefer 161:11,14

preference 96:19

preferred 53:17

premium 42:2

preparing 5:6

prescriptive 53:4

present 1:10 2:9 6:17

8:6,18,22 9:14,16,21

10:6 23:18 57:15

117:7 141:12 170:10

presentation 154:21

presiding 1:9

pressed 30:20 89:8

pressure 167:22

pressured 154:1

Preston 121:8 135:4

140:6,11,13,17

154:20 159:20

pretty 31:18 71:5

128:18 131:6 157:11

prevent 58:2 59:14 85:7

110:15 172:17 187:11

prevented 22:2

preventing 13:7,12

prevention 58:7,16

110:6

preventive 58:1

previously 22:22

137:11 150:7 186:18

price 42:2 183:2

priced 183:14

prices 104:17

primarily 21:1 136:16

primary 162:5 181:4

principle 67:12

principles 54:8,12

prior 5:20 136:19

141:21

priorities 12:3,6 103:5

103:8,10,13,16,20

104:7 105:3 106:19

prioritization 106:4

priority 12:16 13:4

28:16 103:7 108:11

108:14 116:18 172:20

probably 57:15 120:9

127:8 130:10 148:4

152:3

problem 13:10,12 33:5

36:10 63:7 68:18

90:20 91:4 117:21

120:13 162:1

problematic 80:18

problems 98:12

procedure 136:6

procedures 173:22

proceed 165:7

process 10:21 11:18

13:16,21 14:17 15:13

15:22 29:18,20 57:5

96:3,12 145:5 151:10

176:7

processes 30:1 73:12

157:5

processors 52:12

produce 21:19 40:16

41:1,7,12 42:17 47:19

50:3 74:4 162:3

175:11 182:14 184:7

187:3

produced 49:15 80:2

88:16

producer 89:10 94:14

98:8 124:22 155:16

producers 16:12 52:15

53:1,14 54:6,18 55:5

55:7,10 83:18 84:14

113:11 122:14,18,21

123:4,6,21 124:4,7,15

124:16,18 126:4

127:11,11,16 128:2

187:6

produces 177:3

product 20:1 30:3 37:4

38:4 44:19,19 45:1

49:15 71:20 72:9 75:3

94:18 145:13 162:13

167:3 168:4

production 13:6 15:6

15:13,16,20 16:15

28:21 40:21 45:8,9,12

45:13 46:21 49:3,13

50:9,16 53:19 54:2,8

54:17,19 66:12,22

72:1 75:8 79:3,4,10

81:16 82:10 105:16

105:18 106:2 116:1

118:13,17,19,20

120:10 121:21 122:3

123:2,22 124:13,18

125:2 128:10 140:21

143:4 144:20 150:5

152:5 155:3,10 156:2

156:3,8,9,17,18 157:1

157:14 158:9,10,11

products 26:5 33:15,20

36:8,19 38:15 40:4

44:22 47:3 75:7 83:21

89:6,19 106:6 136:3

136:10,13,16 138:5

146:21 147:2 151:21

155:8 157:12 167:18

168:1 174:1 175:13

176:1,8,9 177:5 178:3

183:14 184:4

professional 21:9

37:10

professionally 95:20

program 4:7,19,21 5:9

17:11 28:5,6 32:20

41:9 52:11 60:9 64:7

135:12 162:18 172:21

178:6 189:2

programs 11:5 102:19

prohibited 32:4 116:9

118:22

project 104:3 181:6

projects 103:15,19,21

promote 54:22 66:9

73:14 143:7

promotes 73:15

proof 88:20

proper 16:5 27:14

87:18

properly 170:14

properties 23:4

proposal 15:4 32:2

33:17,22 34:6 38:2

55:17 57:10 59:4

60:12 64:11,17 66:14

68:6,8 69:8 80:8 81:1

81:3,5 109:11 115:22

116:5,7 121:20 134:4

135:22 138:16 139:6

139:15 141:2,6,10

142:17 143:2,5

171:21 172:8 173:4

174:18

proposals 115:20

propose 30:6 174:5

184:2

proposed 22:14 57:20

59:1 85:2 109:17,18

110:11 116:16 132:10

132:17 133:14 142:22

171:17 174:10

proposing 60:15

130:22

prospective 77:15

protect 34:4 95:9

162:11 187:13

protected 162:14

Protection 173:3

protein 12:21 187:19

protocols 96:4

prove 97:16 98:3

proven 87:11

provide 4:14 12:21

14:16 22:21 60:8 85:6

94:18 126:20 129:19

135:16 136:18 159:10

173:21 174:18 182:13

provided 59:5 110:2

116:5 138:2 141:14

186:6

provides 4:13 174:14

providing 4:19 20:1

61:3 64:8 85:13 95:6

pruned 148:22

prunings 147:15

public 1:5 3:11 4:9,9,14

4:16 5:5,20 6:15 7:12

13:15,18 14:16 29:16

29:19 64:8 70:18

74:17 188:17,20

189:5
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publications 28:13

published 78:2

pull 146:17

pump 73:21

purchase 136:10 137:8

137:11,20

purchases 138:7

purchasing 138:4

pure 11:18 155:17

purely 142:16 147:1

purity 34:22

purpose 141:1

pursue 165:21

pursuing 172:15

purview 46:18

pushed 142:5

pushing 12:4 35:7

put 6:11 12:2 32:2,18

33:19 60:14 66:19

111:4 120:16 134:9

134:15 141:4,6 143:2

145:4 146:18 147:22

148:8,19 151:15

154:16 158:12 160:12

puts 37:14 166:15

putting 22:15 61:10

128:3,6 132:22

Q

qualifies 167:8

quality 48:13,20 51:15

159:10 163:2 183:15

quantified 107:21

quantifies 106:5

quantity 152:6

question 22:14 24:12

25:19 34:14 35:14,18

36:15,16,17 40:9

45:22 49:17 67:19

70:16 74:8 75:1 76:13

76:14 78:16 79:17

81:20 87:2 91:1,6

97:10 100:4 106:12

106:13 108:7 111:18

113:20,22 114:2

119:9 125:11 126:16

127:20 129:7 130:16

132:4 134:12 143:15

143:17 146:6 147:14

149:8 150:22,22

152:18 157:22 168:19

170:3 178:19

questions 7:12,20

11:12 14:6 18:6 24:10

30:18,22 34:17 36:13

36:15 39:5 43:7 47:15

49:17 51:19 53:22

55:20,20 59:18 60:1

61:15 62:1 67:17

70:18 80:5 82:17 86:6

90:22 93:10 97:4

101:9 106:11 108:5

108:16 110:18 114:7

117:6,13,15 119:8

121:4 125:5 131:21

134:21 135:2 138:22

140:2 143:10 147:10

152:20 157:21 159:21

164:17,19 168:18

174:21 178:8,12

180:3 184:14 188:10

188:22

quick 70:22 84:5 91:6

146:6 156:13 178:18

quicker 152:15

quickly 58:19 60:3

69:11 112:10

quiet 189:10

quite 67:22 119:11

126:6,17 127:5

158:20 168:20

quote 67:6 109:19

182:4

R

radiation 167:17

rain 163:5,9

raise 49:5

raised 49:8

Ranch 140:17

range 25:5,6 77:22

145:19 146:8

rare 61:5

rate 75:7,8

re-listing 15:14 16:13

reach 64:4

reached 113:6

reactor 29:22

read 38:22 68:7 80:8

reading 67:5 79:1 139:4

181:1

ready 8:4 33:16 86:15

175:5

real 13:18 20:11 57:13

75:16 164:10 167:21

182:5

realistic 47:10

realized 22:1

reason 18:1 64:21

74:20 88:11 171:1

reasonable 51:7

reasoning 67:3

reasons 65:7 92:14

185:21

receipt 137:14

receive 58:14

recess 189:5

recirculate 185:22

reclassify 115:22

recognize 44:18

recognized 26:3

recommend 24:7 30:15

recommendation 52:20

57:6 66:21 67:4,6,13

103:5

recommendations 5:7

64:12 84:10 85:15

95:6 105:8 132:10

141:3 173:21

recommending 57:12

108:10

record 7:7 31:8 39:17

44:1 52:6 56:13 63:19

83:10 86:18 109:5

110:22 118:1 129:22

135:9 136:11 137:22

138:4,11 165:7

189:14

record-keeping 52:22

records 138:7

recover 99:20

recycle 55:8

recycled 51:3

recyclers 22:7

recycling 55:6

reduce 29:7 73:7,8

105:18

reduced 21:21

reduces 141:21

reducing 46:21 176:1

reduction 21:20 23:16

referred 177:17

reflect 116:1

refrigeration 72:20

regard 29:12

regarding 12:7 52:18

54:1 105:15 106:20

152:22 161:10

regardless 91:10

183:15

regards 53:13 141:9

Regeneration 65:20

regenerative 73:12

regionally 11:5

regions 177:11

regular 58:21 59:2

81:22

regularly 88:3 103:17

regulation 30:12 61:7

97:19 147:3

regulations 53:6 55:18

70:11 110:13 122:16

141:7 142:22 143:4

172:5,13 173:11,17

regulatory 171:22

173:6

reinforces 174:12

reiterate 164:8

relate 12:6

related 44:9 71:14

103:10 121:21 149:8

relation 24:15

relationships 46:13

80:10

relaxing 188:5

release 105:22

released 87:21

relevant 7:8 10:18

14:12 29:13 90:11

104:20 137:2 173:4

reliable 34:9

reliant 92:1

relies 40:21

relisting 12:9

rely 19:11,12 88:14

103:13

remain 15:11 42:5

remaining 6:18 122:9

163:1

remains 85:21

Remarks 3:5

remedy 81:6

remember 6:9 60:13

105:22 118:11

remind 96:13

removal 16:18 112:13

remove 24:8 30:16

113:2

removed 23:14 113:8

removing 113:13

renewable 54:9 186:6

renewal 15:8

replace 74:2

replenished 128:11

replenishing 128:9

report 78:2 84:11

reports 45:17 187:5

represent 18:3

representation 105:11

Representative 173:2

represented 105:10,14

representing 31:16

137:16

represents 17:14

request 30:14,16 105:9

139:10,16 163:11

173:20

requesting 105:11

require 36:18 53:17

54:13 133:19 134:2

145:5 147:4 174:6

184:4
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required 25:3 29:1 54:6

54:20 55:8,10 64:14

110:8 124:1 147:22

148:17 168:3

requirement 16:11

19:22 52:22 82:5,14

82:15 130:14

requirements 80:16

132:18 136:12 138:11

142:12 186:10

requires 22:19 53:6,10

84:18 97:19 122:21

136:14 137:7 173:6

requiring 53:11 59:14

81:6 82:10 182:8

research 11:4 12:3,5,12

12:16 13:3,10 24:3

65:9 70:2 77:20,20

102:21 103:5,6,10,13

103:14,19,20 104:7

105:2,12,13,17 106:5

106:19 107:9,12

108:8,8,10,12 116:18

153:4 186:16 188:13

researchers 107:15

116:20

researching 40:7

residues 47:20 55:4,6

resistance 16:1 18:11

113:13

resolution 109:15

resource 40:19 42:21

54:9 104:21 122:15

resources 11:6 21:13

29:1 40:18 42:7,14

124:1 133:6 138:3

142:15 154:18

respect 70:14 124:21

respective 7:16

response 86:8 101:10

108:17 117:14 134:22

140:3 164:18 174:22

178:16 184:15 188:11

responsibility 21:10

181:21

responsible 21:8,12

23:21 55:6

rest 176:17

restrictions 142:13

result 27:17 58:21

79:14 139:14 173:1

resulting 30:3

results 95:21 163:14

176:7 177:3

retailer 94:14

retain 42:1

retained 112:13

reused 147:17

reverse 65:17 73:9 76:4

reversing 73:3

review 15:15 16:14 88:5

88:8 107:13 119:5

129:10

reviewed 29:15 122:1,5

122:10 124:11,19

125:18

reviewer 124:21 132:6

reviewer's 129:6

revision 142:20

rhizospheric 80:12

rice 1:19 9:15,16 104:3

139:2

Rider 140:18

rinse 19:1

rises 164:5

rising 83:16 164:3

risk 35:22

River 94:12,13 95:3

99:2

rivers 48:14,17

road 61:4 148:18

roads 119:1 120:5

roadways 118:15 120:2

robust 40:22 60:8

rock 127:14 186:18

role 27:9 140:20 172:4

roll 3:8 8:6

Romero-Briones 1:20

9:18,19 30:19

rooftops 186:20

root 80:17 91:15 141:22

142:6 169:13

roots 26:8 80:11 87:19

91:13 147:20 154:15

156:5 169:16 176:17

176:22

rotate 18:10 46:9

rotational 49:10

rotations 123:14

routes 112:12 129:20

routine 59:2

row 114:19

rows 149:17 150:1

rule 57:11,19,20 58:3

60:15 61:2 95:5,7

100:1

rulemaking 174:4,6,14

rules 61:10,16

run 6:19

running 91:20 150:15

178:13

runoff 42:20 77:4

rushing 41:15

Ruth 10:16 14:8,8 20:18

20:19,22 24:10 25:11

25:21

S

sacrifice 183:4

safe 20:1 23:9 27:22

79:13 103:11 163:19

safer 176:10 177:6

safety 16:7,9 19:21

20:12 21:8 87:15 88:1

116:13

Sahara 181:6

sale 38:14

sales 38:18 65:4 136:10

salinity 142:1 148:11

sample 71:11 129:19

sand 176:16

sanitize 19:3

sanitizers 15:18 18:16

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178:5,13 180:3

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116:4,17 117:1 123:9

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182:14

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138:10 173:22

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warehouse 38:16,19

warehousing 38:13,17

warming 28:15

warrants 112:18

washed 148:13

Washington 66:18

83:16

wasn't 75:19 132:20

waste 21:14 87:18,20

89:9,10 149:3,4

153:21

water 19:5 21:11,21

42:21 48:13,20 51:6

77:4 87:3,4,7,9,9,12

87:21,22 91:8,10

92:13,19,19,22 93:3

159:4 161:13,21

163:5,7 169:13,17,20

170:13 179:22 186:1

water's 92:17

watering 46:22

watermelons 33:12

Watts 10:17 14:8 20:18

20:21,22 24:17,22

25:9,12,17,22 26:14

26:18

way 12:20 18:4,4 38:11

41:2 44:12,16 46:16

66:10 69:13 72:19

74:4,16 93:5 110:4

111:14 115:2 120:6

127:8 133:21 147:17

152:1 163:21 166:1

168:7 169:18 182:12

182:17

web 6:1

webinar 1:5,9 4:5,10,13

5:20,21 14:17 27:6

31:4 35:10 117:7

118:6 131:14

webinars 118:7

website 4:21

weed 149:22 150:4,6

weeding 150:9 153:21

weeds 153:22

week 64:5,15

weight 24:13

welcome 3:2 4:4,8 5:19

9:12 126:12 143:9

well-being 12:22

went 76:21 119:12

189:3,14

weren't 182:20

whatever's 157:12

wheat 21:20 164:4

wide 77:22

widely 161:22

Wiengand 135:6,10,11

135:15

wife 185:4

wife's 185:6

wildlife 54:22 130:6

willing 166:5

winter 33:12

wire 184:17

Wisconsin 84:21 98:12

wiser 179:2

wish 27:7 98:14

wither 87:5

wonder 74:3 178:22

wondering 72:6 106:18

131:10

wonks 61:5

wood 123:16 148:22

word 161:15 166:8,9,13

182:20 184:3

wording 110:4,8

words 45:18

work 4:11 5:10 10:12

11:22 12:2 27:3,10,18

51:14 52:17 53:21

59:20 66:11 95:1

96:22 97:1,21 98:7

100:11 103:17 109:7

109:13 116:12,22

172:11 174:11

worked 85:14 97:14

working 10:13 34:21

65:21 98:1 100:10

121:22 139:22 160:5

188:6

works 99:12

world 181:7 185:7

worries 132:21

worst 183:1

wouldn't 37:19 70:10

126:2 159:5

Wow 14:4

written 30:12 34:9 39:4

57:17 59:17 82:7 86:3

111:12 131:21 136:19

wrong 30:20

wrote 38:12 113:4

X

Y

YANESSA 2:15

yard 22:16

year 85:12 100:11

136:8,14 138:8

141:14,16 146:1,1,16

146:17 150:16 151:6

158:17 173:15 181:13

year-round 43:2

yearly 142:12

years 17:16 34:10,14

41:18 86:21 88:2

100:2 122:1 163:2

167:8 181:13,15,19

185:5,9 186:18

yield 21:18 106:2

young 159:13

Z

Zak 115:11,11 121:7

135:3,5,7,7,10 138:21

138:22 139:3 140:2,5

Zea 20:19 26:20 31:1,6

31:10,15 34:16,17,18

35:16 36:14,14 39:6,6

Zen 135:4 140:7 160:1

160:4,10,17 164:15

164:20

zone 141:22 142:6

Zuckerman 39:15 43:9

43:16,17 44:2,3 48:2

50:1,19 51:21

0

1

1,000 48:6 65:22

1,700 56:19

1:00 1:9 189:6

1:03 188:18

1:04 4:2

10 3:11 181:19

100 91:22 100:21

125:13,14,18,20
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

211

126:6 128:2 133:18

134:2 153:5 154:11

162:21 163:16 175:13

108-day 97:17

111 119:13

112-day 97:17

15 182:12

15- 29:12

15-1 24:8 30:16

15,000 64:15

150 175:15

188 3:14

189 3:16

1960's 21:16

1990 74:15

2

2 4:17 21:15

2,000 48:6 56:17

20 81:14 102:8 141:13

146:12 163:2 167:8

181:19

2008 185:8

2009 181:6

2010 66:21

2013 32:9

2014 65:18

2016 32:15 45:17 65:9

77:20

2017 1:7

2018 104:7 105:3

204A 53:7

205 53:7

2050 181:8

238D 57:21

24 1:7

3

3 22:6

3,000 89:3

3,500 126:4

30 22:20

31 4:17

350 66:7

37 66:4 111:21 112:16

4

4 3:3 23:5

4.5 181:13

4:04 189:14

40 22:20

400,000 64:5

44 76:21 77:9

460 122:1

48 65:12 78:5

5

5 3:6

5,000 28:11

50 141:10 145:20

146:11 147:22 151:16

164:3,7

50-31 172:14

50,000 28:7,12

500 172:19

5029 52:21

511 118:10 119:15

52 122:2

57 72:21

6

6 6:9

6-copper 12:9

7

7 6:10

700 52:11

8

8 3:9

80 145:21 164:10

88 65:11 76:20 78:3

9

9.5 181:7
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

212

Public Comment Webinar

USDA/NOSB

10-24-17

webinar
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

 + + + + +

 PUBLIC COMMENT WEBINAR

 + + + + +

 THURSDAY

 OCTOBER 26, 2017

 + + + + +

 The National Organic Standards Board

convened via webinar at 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time,

Tom Chapman, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT:

TOM CHAPMAN, Chair

ASHLEY SWAFFAR, Vice Chair

JESSE BUIE, Secretary

FRANCIS THICKE, Crops Subcommittee Chair

SUE BAIRD

HARRIET BEHAR

ASA BRADMAN

LISA de LIMA

STEVE ELA

JOELLE MOSSO

EMILY OAKLEY

SCOTT RICE

A-DAE ROMERO-BRIONES

DAN SEITZ
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ALSO PRESENT:

PAUL LEWIS, Director, Standards Division

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee 

 Specialist, NOSB

LISA BRINES, National List Manager

SHANNON NALLY YANESSA, Assistant Director, 

 Standards Division

MATT PAVONE, Policy Analyst, Standards Division

DEVON PATTILLO, Materials Specialist, Standards 

 Division

BRIDGET McELROY, Policy Analyst, Standards 

 Division
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Welcome

 Paul Lewis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Opening Remarks

 Tom Chapman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

Member Roll Call

 Michelle Arsenault . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8

Public Comments. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11

Closing Comments

 Tom Chapman. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 182

Adjourn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 183
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (1:04 p.m.)

3 MR. LEWIS: Thank you, Michelle, and

4 good afternoon. I am Paul Lewis, Director,

5 Standards Division with the National Organic

6 Program. And I want to welcome members of the

7 Board and the public to today's meeting of the

8 National Organic Standards Board Public Webinar.

9 This is our second webinar this week

10 and to help us prepare our upcoming meeting with

11 the Board scheduled for October 31st through

12 November 2nd. And at that meeting, the National

13 Organic program will also be providing updates on

14 NOP activities.

15 Please consult the NOP website for

16 further information about the face to face

17 meeting that'll be occurring in Jacksonville next

18 week.

19 Today's webinar, like other meetings

20 of the National Organic Standards Board, operate

21 under the Federal Advisory Committee Act. And I

22 look forward to hearing the comments of the
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1 public today to assist the NOSB in preparing

2 their recommendations to USDA.

3 I also want to personally thank my

4 Standards Division colleagues for their help

5 behind the scenes to bring this to today's

6 teleconference.

7 I'd like to now turn to Mr. Tom

8 Chapman, Chairman of the National Organic

9 Standards Board. Tom, thank you for chairing

10 this webinar today.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Paul. And I

12 would like to welcome everyone to the public

13 comment webinar prior to our full meeting. This

14 is our second session in --

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Tom, did we lose you? 

16 If you're still talking, we can't hear you.

17 (No audible response)

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Tom, are you there?

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Sorry, it looks like you

20 guys muted me. Probably the issue.

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Thanks.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: So where did I cut off
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1 there, Michelle?

2 MS. ARSENAULT: Right at the

3 beginning.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Right at the beginning.

5 MS. ARSENAULT: Sorry about that.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Can I start from the top

7 real quick? So welcome, everybody. Looking

8 forward to a successful second webinar. Forgive

9 us if we have any IT issues, like the one just

10 experienced.

11 And then most importantly, please

12 remember to keep yourself on mute, Star 6 to

13 mute, Star 7 to unmute. Or you can use your

14 hand-set but don't put us on hold.

15 So after the introductory comments,

16 we'll begin the public comments in the order on

17 the list. If someone's not present at the time

18 they are called, we will skip them and come to

19 them at the end of the comment period if they've

20 arrived, if time permits.

21 I will also call the following

22 speakers, one or two ahead of time, and then if
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1 they're on deck. If we can't find the phone

2 number of a speaker, we'll ask members to message

3 up to try to find them.

4 When called upon, commenters, you are

5 asked to give your name and relevant affiliation

6 for the record. We ask that you disclose all

7 relevant affiliations pertaining to matters of

8 business before the Board.

9 And I encourage NOSB members, if they

10 want any further clarification, I encourage you

11 to ask questions after the public commenter has

12 finished their three minute time.

13 Comment time is three minutes per

14 commenter. You'll hear the buzzer that Michelle

15 practiced earlier. At that three minute mark,

16 I'll ask for, out of respect for the Board and

17 the other commenters on here, that you try to

18 finish your sentence after hearing that buzzer. 

19 And then we'll open it up to questions from the

20 Board at that time.

21 Again the format, we accept questions

22 from the Board, but not from the general public. 
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1 After that, we'll move on to the next commenter

2 and on down the list.

3 Now, there will be transcripts of this

4 call bundled with the transcripts of the entire

5 meeting. And with that, that's the end of my

6 comments. So, Michelle, if you'd be so kind as

7 to do a roll call of the Board present.

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Thanks, Tom. All

9 right, Sue Baird, are you on the line with us?

10 MS. BAIRD: Yes, I am.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello there. Harriet?

12 MS. BEHAR: Hi, there.

13 MS. ARSENAULT: I know you're here. 

14 Asa, I know you're here too. Are you still with

15 us? You're on mute if you're talking.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: I just unmuted Asa.

17 MS. ARSENAULT: Thanks.

18 MR. BRADMAN: All right, can you hear

19 me now?

20 MS. ARSENAULT: Hey, Asa. Got you. 

21 Great. Jesse, I see you up on the line. You

22 there? Jesse, if you're talking, I can't hear
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1 you.

2 (No audible response)

3 MS. ARSENAULT: No, still on mute,

4 maybe?

5 (No audible response)

6 MS. ARSENAULT: Jesse, it looks like

7 you're calling in from a phone, not a headset on

8 your computer. So I think you're still on mute.

9 (No audible response)

10 MS. ARSENAULT: I've got to skip over

11 Jesse for now, but I see him on there. Tom

12 Chapman?

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Present.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: Lisa de Lima?

15 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

16 MS. ARSENAULT: Great. Steve Ela?

17 MR. ELA: I'm here.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Excellent. Dave

19 Mortensen was not able to be with us today. So

20 Dave's not on the line. Joelle Mosso?

21 MS. MOSSO: Here.

22 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Joelle. Emily
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1 Oakley?

2 MS. OAKLEY: Present.

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you, ma'am. 

4 Scott Rice?

5 MR. RICE: Present.

6 MS. ARSENAULT: Hey, Scott. A-Dae? 

7 A-Dae was --

8 MS. ROMERO-BRIONES: I'm here.

9 MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you.

10 MS. ROMERO-BRIONES: I was just going

11 to stop at A-Dae.

12 MS. ARSENAULT: Figured I'd better get

13 your last name in there too. Dan Seitz?

14 MR. SEITZ: Here.

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Dan. Ashley

16 Swafar?

17 MS. SWAFFAR: I'm here.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Ashley. And

19 Francis Thicke?

20 MR. THICKE: Here.

21 MS. ARSENAULT: All right. Everyone

22 is here.
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1 MR. BUIE: Jesse Buie.

2 MS. ARSENAULT: Oh, sorry.

3 MR. BUIE: This is Jesse. I'm here.

4 MS. ARSENAULT: Great.

5 MR. BUIE: I keep losing connection

6 for some reason, but I'm here.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: Okay. Thanks, Jesse. 

8 Thank you, Tom, for moving back around.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. So there's

10 14, 15 Board members present. We do have a

11 quorum, and we'll start with the comments now. 

12 Up first is Jennifer Davis, followed by Grant

13 Richardson, and Chris Nagelhout. Jennifer, are

14 you on the line with us?

15 (No audible response)

16 MS. ARSENAULT: So we haven't found

17 Jennifer in the list. And I don't see anyone

18 from that area code on the phone with us, Tom.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. And Grant

20 Richardson, are you here?

21 MR. RICHARDSON: I'm here, can you

22 hear me?
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can, Grant. 

2 Hold on one second, let me --- so after Grant we

3 have Chris Nagelhout and then Marti Crouch.

4 All right, Grant, you can start with

5 your name, and affiliation, and then just go into

6 your comment.

7 MR. RICHARDSON: Great, thank you. My

8 name is Grant Richardson. And I am the founder

9 of Crisp Farms. Crisp Farms is a family farm in

10 Smithville, Texas, which utilizes aquaponic

11 farming to provide our community a year-round

12 local supply of lettuces and leafy greens that

13 adhere to the organic standards, an offer that is

14 not currently available in our community due to

15 our climate.

16 I'm a 25-year old first generation

17 farmer. I have a master's degree in

18 environmental engineering, but I quit my career

19 in water treatment engineering to help launch

20 this aquaponic farm, since I'm so passionate

21 about this farming technique to provide a more

22 sustainable and productive form of agriculture
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1 that fully meets the organic standards.

2 There are several key points that I

3 would like to share today that undoubtedly

4 demonstrate the proposal to ban aquaponics from

5 the NOP as both unreasonable and unfounded.

6 First and foremost, aquaponics is not

7 hydroponics. On the August webinar, multiple

8 Board members, in supporting this recommendation,

9 were quoted as suggesting that aquaponics is

10 really just hydroponics.

11 The proposal document ascertains that,

12 and I quote, "Hydroponic production is highly

13 dependent on the continuous use of fertilizer

14 inputs to the production system rather than

15 relying on productive soil and the natural

16 recycling of nutrients through decaying organic

17 matter to regenerate the fertility needs of the

18 crops."

19 While this assessment may be accurate

20 for conventional hydroponics, it is not accurate

21 for aquaponics. In fact, this assessment is one

22 of the fundamental reasons why aquaponics is not
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1 hydroponics. This is because aquaponics does not

2 and cannot use fertilizer inputs like hydroponics

3 does because of the effect it would have on fish

4 waste.

5 Furthermore, aquaponics farming

6 functions in direct alignment with what the

7 previous standards defined organic flora farming

8 as organic. Contrary to what is stated in the

9 proposal, aquaponics does use the natural

10 recycling of nutrients through decaying organic

11 matter to regenerate the fertility needs of the

12 crops.

13 It does this through the natural and

14 biological transformation of fish waste into

15 beneficial nutrients for the crops. And these

16 conjectures are being used as the justification

17 to ban hydroponic practices? But it is not

18 acceptable to group aquaponics under the umbrella

19 of hydroponic growing practices because of the

20 aforementioned differences.

21 Furthermore, at the first meeting of

22 the hydroponic/aquaponic task force in January of
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1 2016, the NOP stated that the NOP would likely

2 need to undertake rulemaking on aquaponic farming

3 and that, and I quote, "Rulemaking requires a

4 comprehensive recommendation from the NOSB that

5 addresses grey areas left by past

6 recommendations."

7 One of the grey areas that are

8 specifically called out was that aquaponic

9 systems were not sufficiently addressed including

10 NOSB recommendations. The recommendation brought

11 forth in Jacksonville does not address the gray

12 area for organic aquaponics, as the NOSB has been

13 specifically tasked with doing.

14 Instead, the recommendation to ban

15 aquaponics relies on misinformation and the lack

16 of scientific due diligence in and attempt to

17 lump aquaponics under the umbrella of hydroponics

18 which as I previously articulated, it clearly is

19 not. Thank you.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

21 questions from the Board for Grant?

22 (No audible response)
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Grant, I'm not seeing

2 any questions. Thank you for your comment. Up

3 next we have Chris Nagelhout. Chris, are you

4 here?

5 MR. NAGELHOUT: Yes, I'm here. Can

6 you all hear me?

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can, Chris. 

8 Hold on one moment. And after Chris, we had

9 Marti Crouch and then Clarence Wagner. Chris,

10 you can start with your name and relevant

11 affiliation.

12 MR. NAGELHOUT: Sure. I'm Chris

13 Nagelhout. And I'm the co-founder of Crisp

14 Farms. As my colleague, Grant, just mentioned,

15 we are a new aquaponic farm pending organic

16 certification. And we grow lettuce and leafy

17 greens.

18 Our method of organic farming uses

19 one-tenth of the land, and 90 percent less water

20 than soil-grown produce, and with the added

21 benefit that we don't have any nutrient encroach

22 into our system.
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1 I don't know if you know this, but

2 from November to March, 90 percent of the lettuce

3 we will eat in the US and Canada will come from

4 the Yuma Valley in Arizona. It brings trucks

5 thousands of miles to consumers.

6 Crisp Farms lettuce, which is grown

7 within 30 miles of Austin, is clearly more

8 sustainable than the alternative products grown

9 in drought-stricken areas and sucking the

10 Colorado River dry.

11 Additionally, we don't use any

12 petroleum-powered tractors. Our employees enjoy

13 very comfortable working conditions, and our

14 product, since it is contained in a fully

15 biosecured greenhouse, never comes in contact

16 with overspray from non-organic farms or

17 pathogens from wild animals.

18 There has been much conjecture amongst

19 the Board about our product being grown in fish

20 waste. First of all, our product is not grown in

21 fish waste. Because by the time it reaches our

22 plant, it is broken down by natural biological
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1 practices such as you would find in rivers,

2 streams, and wetlands.

3 However, how would this activation be

4 any different than organic farms who irrigate

5 with water from natural bodies of water which

6 undoubtedly contain aquatic life? What about

7 organic rice farming where thousands of acres are

8 flooded with river water, or how organic farmers

9 use worm castings for fertilizer? And worms are

10 a cold-blooded animal just like fish.

11 The proposal does not provide any

12 justification to suggest that aquaponics poses

13 more risk than those other NOP accepted

14 practices.

15 I'd also like to highlight the fact

16 that this recommendation has demonstrated to be

17 against the consumer interests. There were 198

18 comments submitted to the Federal Register that

19 this meeting would contain the search word

20 "aquaponic." Of those comments, 167 of them were

21 in support of organic aquaponics.

22 At least 84 percent of the public who
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1 feels strongly enough about aquaponics farming to

2 comment about this recommendation want aquaponics

3 to remain organic, 84 percent. Clearly a vote to

4 ban aquaponics from the NOP is in direct conflict

5 with consumer interest.

6 Additionally, our world is rapidly

7 growing, climate change is occurring, and arable

8 land is not increasing. These are facts. If

9 we're to take healthy, sustainable, and organic

10 food into the future to feed not just the few who

11 can afford but make it more affordable for all,

12 then we need to be advocates for agriculture

13 innovation and not be afraid of it.

14 If the organic labels can only be

15 applied to soil-grown, then the label and its

16 trust will eventually die. We are already

17 meeting the organic standards of our growing

18 methods, and we aren't asking for any special

19 favors.

20 Lastly, I'll remind you that you are

21 voting on aquaponics as a separate recommendation

22 from hydroponics. Please consider how the
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1 information you've learned about aquaponics

2 differentiates it from hydroponics.

3 Transcripts from previous discussions

4 have indicated confusion regarding the difference

5 between hydro and aqua. It would be

6 inappropriate to base one's understanding and

7 vote on aquaponics based off of a muddled

8 understanding of our industry and methods.

9 We are a distinct and separate method

10 of organic agriculture with hydroponics, and we

11 should be considered as such. Thank you for your

12 time.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I have some

14 questions from the Board, first Steve and then

15 Emily. Steve?

16 MR. ELA: Yes, for both of you, I have

17 a couple of questions. I mean, you both stated

18 you can't use fertilizer, there are no nutrient

19 inputs. But yet you are, I presume, feeding the

20 fish which, I mean, has been what is being

21 transformed into a nutrient. So I guess I'd like

22 you to comment both on that nutrient input and
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1 then also whether you're adding any

2 micronutrients.

3 And then finally I am, I guess, would

4 like you to at least give a little bit more --- I

5 get that the fertilizer's coming from the fish,

6 but the plants themselves are still growing in

7 the hydroponic media, even though the fertilizer

8 source is the fish.

9 So I'm not quite clear on how you can

10 say that's not a hydroponic plant growing system,

11 even though the aquaponic system, I get, as a

12 whole is bigger.

13 MR. NAGELHOUT: Absolutely. So our

14 claim that we're not putting any inputs into our

15 system to fertilize our plants, I still stand by

16 that claim. And I know we are putting a fish

17 food in. It's a non-GMO fish food for our fish.

18 However, our fish waste, basically

19 manure in this case, but when you're putting

20 manure on soil fields for organic grown, it isn't

21 required that those cows, or turkeys, or chickens

22 were fed an organic diet.
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1 It doesn't really break down that way

2 in the water. Our fish food isn't left to

3 decompose in the water. It's fully consumed by

4 the fish. So I hope that answers your question

5 there.

6 Also, within our system there are no

7 micronutrients that we put in. There aren't any

8 other synthetic fertilizers or, well, any NOP

9 allowed fertilizers. So the only other input we

10 do have in our system is crushed oyster shell

11 which just maintains a buffer for pH. And it's

12 just a natural product.

13 All of the micronutrients in our

14 system are nutrients that our plants do require,

15 are produced in the water column. It's a natural

16 biology nitrification, all the other beneficial

17 bacteria that are located in our entire system.

18 And if you think about, like, a

19 wetland, or streams, or rivers, it functions

20 exactly the same way that those natural

21 byproducts from the aquatic organisms that live

22 in the water are broken down. So does that
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1 answer your question right there about the inputs

2 into our systems?

3 MR. ELA: Yes, that's good.

4 MR. NAGELHOUT: Okay. And, I'm sorry,

5 would you --- I think you had two questions. 

6 Would you remind me what the second one was?

7 MR. ELA: It was just that I am still

8 --- I get that the whole aquaponic system is a

9 larger system. But for the plants themselves,

10 I'm not totally clear of why it still seems like

11 that's a hydroponic system at that point.

12 MR. NAGELHOUT: Sure. So the way

13 we're viewing that, and the way I think it ought

14 to be interpreted is, yes, we are, we're using

15 ideas from aquaculture. And we are using ideas

16 from hydroponics.

17 But just because we use --- in our

18 system we use a deepwater culture --- just

19 because it looks like other hydroponic systems,

20 it doesn't function the same way.

21 So I don't like to think of aquaponics

22 as being grouped under hydroponics just because
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1 of the lack of input into our systems, the

2 natural biology that's alive and constantly

3 refreshing itself within our system.

4 We don't have to drain any of our

5 water. And it's just --- it's a different

6 makeup. It's kind of like putting, you know, the

7 first cars that were invented and they contained

8 a buggy. And you then feel like saying, well,

9 how is this not a carriage. And they're just two

10 separate technologies that can look similar, and

11 be designed similarly, but don't actually

12 function that way.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Emily?

14 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you. Could you

15 please explain the number of days or the time

16 interval between when the water comes in contact

17 with the fish and when it comes in contact with

18 the plant root? Thank you.

19 MR. NAGELHOUT: Yes. So our system is

20 a recirculating system. There isn't a number of

21 days interval that I could quote you. I mean, it

22 is a system that is constantly recirculating.
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1 However, the way that our system

2 functions is that after the fish tank we have a

3 clarifier which has a baffle system. That's a

4 very low water flow pressure, very large flow

5 down the solids.

6 So in that clarifier, that's where the

7 fish food solids settle. And then we pump those

8 out. They would just --- we pull a gate valve,

9 and it drains very quickly. We use that with our

10 composting from our trimmings from our lettuce

11 and the coir substrate that we use. And we use

12 that to apply to the land.

13 So there's not a time difference

14 between the two, like, we don't hold the fish

15 water in a certain system and then let it go a

16 number of days before it's introduced to our

17 lettuce crop.

18 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much. 

20 We'll be moving on to the next commenter. Thank

21 you, Chris. Next I have Marti Crouch, followed

22 by Clarence Wagner, and then Wil Hemker. Marti
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1 Crouch, are you on the line?

2 MS. CROUCH: Yes.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: And if you can start

4 with your name and relevant affiliation.

5 MS. CROUCH: Yes, my name is Marti

6 Crouch, and I'm presenting comments for the

7 Center for Food Safety. I consult on technical

8 issues including the one I'll be talking about. 

9 And these were comments that were submitted, part

10 of comments submitted by the Center for Food

11 Safety on October 11th. And those include

12 footnotes.

13 This is for the Material Subcommittee

14 and specifically on the proposal for additional

15 excluded methods to be listed in the National

16 Organic Program Excluded Methods guidance

17 document.

18 The Center for Food Safety supports

19 the addition of cisgenesis, intragenesis, and

20 agroinfiltration to the list of excluded methods

21 but cautions NOSB to moving forward at this time

22 without clear definitions of the three methods
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1 provided in the proposal.

2 In these, as well as past comments,

3 CFS has provided ample language for the Board to

4 develop clear definitions of the three methods as

5 well as several other methods that remain to be

6 determined in the terminology chart.

7 Whether genes are moved or manipulated

8 between species or within species, altered

9 techniques, cisgenesis, intragenesis, and

10 agroinfiltration, took the definition of genetic

11 engineering under definitions and principles in

12 criteria.

13 We also recommend the use of

14 transposons, which are still listed as TBD in the

15 terminology chart, be clearly defined, or the

16 method, and categorized as excluded.

17 Now in more detail, and I will talk

18 about cisgenesis, and then Jaydee Hanson from CFS

19 will talk later in the afternoon about the other

20 methods.

21 According to a study cited in CFS

22 comments, "Cisgenesis refers to the genetic
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1 modification of the recipient plant, the natural

2 gene from a sexually compatible plant. Such a

3 gene includes its introns and is flanked by its

4 native promoter and terminator in the normal

5 sense orientation."

6 In cisgenesis then, a biotechnologist

7 uses genetic engineering techniques to move one

8 or a few genes between species and lines and

9 which results in many of the same concerns as

10 transgenesis.

11 We are aware that some people worry

12 that excluding cisgenesis will limit some kinds

13 of Brassica breeding that are used to produce new

14 vegetable varieties. Because in addition to

15 sexual crossing, Brassica breeders sometimes use

16 cell fusion within the plant family, in this

17 case, it would be grass casein, to introduce

18 nitrate-stimulated species.

19 However, cell fusion involves mixing

20 together of all the cell contents, including

21 entire genomes of the varieties being fused

22 without previous invitro manipulation of specific
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1 nucleic acids.

2 The 2013 NOP memo allowed cell fusion

3 within the plant family, because for decades many

4 Brassica crops had been developed using this

5 method. So it's considered conventional breeding

6 rather than genetic engineering. That's also why

7 the Codex definition does this.

8 So listing cisgenesis has no impact on

9 whether cell fusion within the same family was

10 considered an excluded method. Thank you.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Marti. Any

12 questions from the Board?

13 (No audible response)

14 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm not seeing any

15 questions. Thank you very much for your

16 comments.

17 MS. CROUCH: Yes, great. Thank you.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: And our next commenter

19 is Clarence Wagner, followed by Wil Hemker, and

20 then Ashley Buhler after that. Clarence, are you

21 here?

22 MR. WAGNER: Yes, can you hear me?
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, I can. Can you

2 please start with your name and relevant

3 affiliation?

4 MR. WAGNER: Yes, my name is Clarence

5 Wagner, CEA Fresh Farms.

6 Since 1995 and until today, the NOSB

7 has recommended and included organic hydroponic

8 farming on the approved list of organic farming

9 methods to be certified and receive the USDA

10 organic seal.

11 During these many years, organic

12 hydroponic farmers, in compliance with the

13 guidance and inspections of USDA certifying

14 bodies, have built and populated facilities

15 across the country.

16 In the late 2014 Organic Integrity

17 Quarterly, the NOP stated, "Organic hydroponics

18 is a method of growing plants using mineral19 nutrient solutions in water without soil. 

20 Terrestrial plants may be growing with their

21 roots in the mineral-nutrient solution only or in

22 an inert medium."
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1 In the future, the NOP may provide

2 additional guidance regarding organic hydroponic

3 direction and how the regulations apply to such

4 methods.

5 At the NOSB webinar meeting on August

6 14th, in the discussions about organic

7 hydroponics, Miles McEvoy stated of these

8 systems. There have been no accounts of organic

9 operations that are not done in soil that are

10 certified organic under the EU standards.

11 In the US, the European Union organic

12 equivalency arrangement has no restrictions in

13 terms of hydroponics. So there is no critical

14 variance or differences there.

15 One of the edicts about the US organic

16 regulation is that it provides a lot of

17 flexibility in operation to develop systems that

18 are and can be compliant with the regulations.

19 Nevertheless, the Crops Subcommittee

20 compact performance and containment growing

21 recommendations that are being presented to the

22 Board for a vote during this session is a
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1 recommendation to prohibit aeroponic, aquaponic,

2 and hydroponic growing methods and continued

3 certification as USDA organic.

4 These recommendations completely

5 nullify the desire of the NOP for further

6 guidance towards organic hydroponic acceptance

7 and reverses the 22-year history of hydroponics

8 being included in the family of USDA Organic

9 Growers.

10 These recommendations being presented,

11 if passed, shuts the door in the face of

12 thousands of organic hydroponic and aquaponic

13 farmers, many of whom may lose their businesses,

14 and ignores our country's need for more organic

15 produce, not less, in the face of climate change,

16 a growing population, and the need for new

17 innovative techniques for organic farming.

18 It is not a step forward but a step

19 backward to determine that technology needs is

20 more possible for compliance. I could stand here

21 and quote on all of the advantages of hydroponic

22 systems all day. And I have already spoken to
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1 the well documented minority view of the

2 Committee which encompasses the many virtues of

3 organic hydroponic farming.

4 I also recommend the well written CCOF

5 proposal submitted for consideration with the

6 compromise that includes everyone in the organic

7 family and supports USDA regulations that are

8 inclusive and not expensive, as soil and water

9 organic systems have their advantages and

10 limitations.

11 Therefore, I urge the full Board not

12 to pass this proposal as it stands but to send it

13 back to the Crops Committee to find a way to keep

14 organic hydroponics in the family of organic

15 methods, with positive guidance from past

16 recommendations, not banishment. Thank you.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I have a

18 question from Emily.

19 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you. I thought I

20 heard you reference thousands of certified

21 organic hydroponic, aeroponic, and container22 based systems. Did I hear that correctly?
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1 MR. WAGNER: I said thousands of

2 people working with these systems --

3 MS. OAKLEY: Oh --

4 MR. WAGNER: -- 126 employees. So if

5 you put together the people who work in all of

6 these systems, not just the systems themselves,

7 yes, that encompasses thousands.

8 MS. OAKLEY: Okay, thank you. I just

9 didn't hear that clearly. I appreciate the

10 characterization.

11 MR. WAGNER: No problem, thank you. 

12 Okay.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any other

14 questions from the Board --

15 PARTICIPANT: Hello?

16 MR. CHAPMAN: -- at this time? Sorry,

17 can you hear me?

18 MS. BEHAR: Yes, hi. I'm wondering,

19 in the marketplace, with all of the benefits that

20 you say hydroponic has, why is the organic label

21 so important to you? Why would not the

22 hydroponic label, if it was promoted the way you
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1 are promoting it here, not bring customers as a

2 premium that you need?

3 MR. WAGNER: The organic label is

4 already accepted by the population and the Board

5 as something that is clean, something that does

6 not have pesticides, and herbicides, and

7 chemicals, and other, you know, hazardous

8 materials that we all know about.

9 We need organic certified in quotes. 

10 Everything that we use is organic or it should be

11 organic. And also the flexibility of the

12 aquaponic in the USDA regulations, as they

13 interpret it today, do allow for this, to expand

14 the organic market, to expand the opportunity for

15 Americans to get really clean food.

16 We heard from others across America

17 yesterday saying this very same thing. Before

18 labeling, a change needs to be made to describe

19 whether it's organic soil or that it's

20 hydroponic. That's fine, but it needs to be in

21 the same family, because we have the same

22 methods, except for the soil seems to be the
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1 major issue, not other issues regarding the

2 regulations.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Clarence. I

4 don't know if there are any other questions at

5 this time. So we'll move to our next speaker,

6 Wil Hemker. Following that, we have Ashley

7 Buhler and Yemi Amu. Are they already on the

8 line?

9 MR. HEMKER: Yes, I am, Chairman. And

10 I have four slides. Do you have them on your

11 screen?

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Michelle? Have you got

13 the slides?

14 MS. ARSENAULT: They are up on my

15 screen. Do you guys see them yet?

16 MR. CHAPMAN: And, Wil, if you could

17 start with your name and relevant affiliations?

18 MR. HEMKER: Yes, thank you. My name

19 is Wil Hemker. I'm with the University of Akron

20 Research Foundation. Slide 1 ---

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Sorry, Tom, can you

22 see the slides?
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can see the

2 slides.

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Okay, great. Thanks.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Wil, go ahead.

5 MR. HEMKER: Thank you. This Board,

6 and the NOP, and myself hold the organic

7 standards so that consumers can trust the label,

8 and Mother Earth can be more resilient.

9 The Crop Subcommittee proposal on

10 hydroponics and container growing recommendations

11 from August 29th of this year were not authored

12 on using sound science and up to date resilient

13 ecological production facts, nor did they address

14 organic food crops in today's marketplace which

15 have unsafe exposure levels of some components.

16 Like the CCOF written comments, the

17 largest certifier of organic farms, I agree with

18 their concerns for terms used in that report that

19 say inert or trophic levels for hydroponic

20 cultivation. These reveal a degree of ignorance

21 to the salient scientific literature.

22 Slide 2 please. The soil is teeming
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1 with life, since life is enabled by water. And

2 aqueous flow of critical elements and the

3 microbiome through this root zone allows plants

4 to thrive. Soil, or soilless, water is the

5 medium. Therefore diversity should be discussed

6 about more than simply soil. But root-zone

7 ecosystems is critical.

8 Slide 3. In 1990, the NASA-controlled

9 Ecological Life-support System program

10 investigated hydroponic production. They

11 demonstrated in their model crop that, grown in

12 soil, the rhizome microbiome was teeming with

13 life, and in soilless as well. Levels to 100

14 billion cells per gram were found in either

15 system.

16 Therefore, both soil and hydroponic

17 growing displayed plentiful root-zone microbiome. 

18 Robust plant life defines the level of aquatic

19 trophic activity.

20 Slide 4 please? Addressing nitrate

21 concentrations in leafy greens, organic field

22 grown versus hydroponic standards, and a new
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1 method called nitrate reduction methods in

2 hydroponics, Cornell's Agriculture and Life

3 Sciences lab measured, in soil fields, organics

4 similar or higher than conventional hydroponics.

5 And the new technique, hydroponics

6 nitrate reduction methods, found ten to 100 times

7 less nitrates in that production versus organic

8 field production. The table speaks for itself.

9 Also, provided to this Board in April

10 of 2017, heavy metal analysis of USDA organic

11 certified field grown versus greenhouse

12 hydroponic grown spinach has found 60 times more

13 cadmium in field grown than hydroponics. The

14 level of cadmium at that level exceeds EPA

15 drinking standards by ten times.

16 USDA certified organics needs to be

17 rooted in strong science and good agricultural 

18 practices, safe products are needed for our

19 consumers. Thank you.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Wil. Any

21 questions for Wil? I see Francis.

22 MR. THICKE: Hi, thank you, Wil. You
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1 showed a slide on the number of microbes in

2 hydroponics. But compared to soil growing, what

3 about the diversity? What is the comparison of

4 the diversity of different microbes in soil

5 versus hydroponics? And do you have data on

6 that?

7 MR. HEMKER: Not at my hand right now. 

8 I could go back to the literature and find out

9 how it was done on the diversity. Can you

10 provide me your benchmark for diversity in soils

11 that you use?

12 MR. THICKE: I'm interested in the

13 comparison of hydroponic versus soil-grown. What

14 is it? I've seen some studies that are showing

15 differences in organic versus conventional in

16 soil-grown. But I've looked, and I've not really

17 seen any data to compare the diversity of

18 microbes in hydroponics versus so and so.

19 MR. HEMKER: What impact would that

20 make on the vitality of the plant crop? Can you

21 tell me that?

22 MR. THICKE: It indicates a whole
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1 different ecology. And as a cell scientist, I

2 know that we don't really understand all the

3 implications of ecology in soil. But just seeing

4 differences gives us something to ponder about

5 that.

6 I mean, really, can we really match

7 that in the hydroponic system? And are those

8 differences important? We need to have those

9 answers.

10 MR. HEMKER: Those are questions yet

11 to be defined, I'm certain. I'm not a soil

12 scientist. But I know this, that a microbiome

13 plays a very important route in our own human

14 health.

15 And I'm a food scientist. And, you

16 know, they're working with new growers right now

17 in this area. So I think that's a valid

18 question. But I think, before we try to parse 

19 the difference between soil versus soilless, we

20 better look at that microbiome and what's going

21 on in that trophic medium.

22 MR. THICKE: Thank you.
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1 MR. HEMKER: Thank you.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, any other

3 questions from the Board?

4 (No audible response)

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Not seeing any

6 questions, Wil, thank you for your comments.

7 MR. HEMKER: Thank you for the

8 opportunity.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next I have Ashley

10 Buhler, followed by Yemi Amu, and Michael

11 McDonald. Ashley, are you here with us?

12 MS. BUHLER: I am. Can you hear me?

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. Ashley, if

14 you can start with your name and relevant

15 affiliation.

16 MS. BUHLER: My name is Ashley Buhler. 

17 I am the Animal Well-Being and Ethics Manager for

18 Miller Poultry.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Great. And just go

20 ahead with your comment.

21 MS. BUHLER: Thank you. I first

22 wanted to thank the Board for the opportunity to
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1 do so today. The first topic I would like to

2 address is chlorine dioxide. I would urge the

3 Board to keep that on the list of approved

4 materials.

5 In our organic production, we found

6 that that's the best option for the sanitation

7 for our bird health. We've looked at other

8 sanitizers within organic approved, and our non9 organic birds, and have found that chlorine

10 dioxide is the best method for sanitation.

11 The second point I wanted to address

12 is the research on the thiamine. The Board has

13 asked for research to be done and some

14 information on where the research could lead.

15 I wanted to address the fish meal and

16 animal byproducts portion of that. The current

17 standard in the organic program, 205.237, state

18 that currently feed, a million of poultry

19 slaughter byproducts cannot be given to mammals

20 or poultry.

21 So if there is research to be done, it

22 would have to be done outside of organic
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1 production, or that regulation would need to be

2 changed in order to do the regulation. And then

3 it would need to go through the FDA in order to

4 get that approval.

5 And also, a current regulation for the

6 GAP certification in certified humane do not

7 allow for fish meal and avian byproducts to be

8 used in the feed. So any research would need to

9 be done in birds that do not have those

10 certifications in order for that to happen.

11 New products that would be used to

12 replace the thiamine would also need to balance

13 the amino acid profile in the seed. And that can

14 create a challenge for balancing rations. If the

15 new material is high in the thiamine it can also

16 be high in some other amino acids which may

17 create that challenge.

18 The new products could also not be as

19 digestible to the birds, and that could create

20 some loss in feed conversion and also excess

21 waste to the environment. If the birds are not

22 able to process all that they're eating, that
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1 could create a problem in the grading of those

2 birds outside.

3 Currently, there is not much research

4 that has been done with fast growing and full

5 growing broilers as to how much thiamine they

6 each need. But according to our nutritionist,

7 the thiamine will still be important.

8 And the ratio will probably be similar

9 in fast growing and slow growing. So even if we

10 switch to a slow growing broiler, you would

11 probably still need the same amount of the

12 thiamine.

13 To address the flock management

14 practices --- Thank you very much.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

16 questions from the Board?

17 (No audible response)

18 MR. CHAPMAN: I don't see any

19 questions from the Board. Thank you for your

20 comments.

21 MS. BUHLER: Thank you.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next we have Yemi
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1 Amu. Yemi, are you on the line?

2 (No audible response)

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Yemi, we have not been

4 able to find you. Going once, going twice,

5 moving on. Mike McDonald, are you on the line?

6 MR. MCDONALD: Yes, I'm here.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, Michael. Hold on

8 one second. After Michael is Dana Perls followed

9 by Mani Skaria.

10 Michael, if you can start with your

11 name, and relevant affiliation, and then go into

12 your comments.

13 MR. MCDONALD: My name is Michael

14 McDonald with H2O Produce. I'm the CEO and

15 president of our company. And I will be speaking

16 on behalf of aquaponics, hydroponics, aeroponics

17 as a whole.

18 Up front, my apologies, I am offsite. 

19 I'm not on a computer. So I'm a little short20 lived today, but I have all my presentation

21 available.

22 Outright, over the past day and a
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1 half, and past few months, I've had nothing but

2 disagreement from soil-based farmers, partly

3 aquaponics, hydroponics, aeroponics, with little

4 to no support of why traditional farming is

5 better aside from an article of the quality 

6 without full study of the people in the study to

7 further understand other potential health

8 problems.

9 Specifically, in the individual's or

10 the body's lack of ability to absorb nitrates. 

11 I'm speaking very specifically of an article that

12 was brought up on Tuesday.

13 The American Journal of Clinical

14 Nutrition back in 2009 specifically states

15 evidence of adverse effect of nitrate is

16 inconsistent and that nitrate may actually be

17 beneficial.

18 There is some evidence that nitrate

19 reduces blood pressure. The blood pressure

20 lowering effect of vegetables and the vast

21 dietary approaches to stop hypertension trials

22 reduced the nitrate in these vegetables that were
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1 actually studied.

2 Another article specifically states

3 nitrates are so essential in the fact that our

4 bodies even create it on their own. For every

5 kilogram of our body weight we carry, your body

6 naturally produces about one milligram of

7 nitrate. This is specifically out of Jeff

8 Snyder, PhD, Associate Professor at the

9 University of Wisconsin-Madison, Department of

10 Animal Sciences.

11 Our production may very well be what

12 these studies and an overall ushering in new ways

13 of thinking. We, the aquaponic, hydroponic, and

14 aeroponic farmers endorsed the USDA certified

15 organic label struggle in helping them understand

16 what we do.

17 Saying to them that we are farmers and

18 have a higher year-round yield with less of a

19 cost associated with traditional farming,

20 decreased growth cycles, and we do not have to

21 wield the problems than traditional farmers do.

22 Our society is conditioned to believe
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1 that organic farming is pesticide free and has

2 little to low chemicals associated to food they

3 are consuming.

4 In traditional large farming

5 operations, it is completely understood that

6 certain measures have to be taken to protect

7 crops. However, container-based growing has

8 proven over the years to be more sustainable and

9 even more so now to be more cost effective.

10 The association that my company, H2O

11 Produce, has with the USDA certified organic

12 label assures my farmers that this is not yet

13 complete. Upon concluding, we at H2O Produce ---

14 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm going to have to cut

15 you off there. But thank you for your comments. 

16 Any questions from the Board?

17 (No audible response)

18 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm not seeing any

19 questions. Michael, thank you very much for your

20 comments. We will proceed onto our next

21 commenter. Is Dana Perls here? Sorry, is Dana

22 Perls here? Did I hear that?
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: I'm not seeing Dana on

2 the line, Tom. And I just sent out an email, a

3 chat that we were on, and she hasn't answered. 

4 So she may not be on yet.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. Mani Skaria, are

6 you here?

7 MR. SKARIA: Yes. Can you hear me?

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, I can. Hold on one

9 moment. On deck after Mani will be Shannon

10 Sbarra and Roberto Ramirez.

11 Mani, if you can start with your name,

12 affiliation, and then proceed with your comments.

13 MR. SKARIA: Yes, sir. My name is

14 Mani Skaria. I am the president and the CEO of

15 US Citrus, specializing in first line production. 

16 And I'm also a plant pathologist and a citrus

17 specialist with 30 years mostly with the Texas

18 A&M University.

19 For your respected members, we think

20 the national problem in agriculture, how can it

21 be that the United States, as the world economic

22 leader, continues to rely on imports to supply
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1 organically grown products to our consumers?

2 The heart of the problem is that

3 organic food production is not just economically

4 viable in the United States. Why invest in

5 growing if it will be a losing proposition from

6 the beginning?

7 Citrus particularly faces two

8 additional challenges with decreased has driven

9 the cost of production in the United States since

10 2005. 

11 There is the third largest citrus

12 production area in the United States. There are

13 three real examples of individuals who basically

14 could not overcome these challenges.

15 I know an 86-year old citrus grower

16 with 64 years of experience in citrus. They are 

17 citrus production because of fees, higher

18 productions cost.

19 Number two, a middle-aged organic

20 citrus grower and a past president of Texas

21 Citrus Mutual will have organic land production

22 because of their own reasons.
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1 Number three, a citrus scientist with

2 four decades of citrus experience, and with two

3 decades of citrus farming experience, because of

4 the same reasons, cannot ask for 100-person

5 organic farming of citrus production on a larger

6 scale.

7 There's an unfair international market

8 put them in the United States where supplies are

9 cheaper with their lower manual labor cost? We

10 will not be able to compete with that cost

11 factor. Ours will have to quality products grown

12 here on domestic soil using high pesticide-free

13 standards.

14 Respected members, I ask you study and

15 propose ways to support the production and

16 distribution of pesticide-free citrus grown in

17 the United States.

18 I'm available to assist in any way

19 that I can to define the problem, define the

20 issues, and identify experts. Now more than ever,

21 we must be comfortable to help US agriculture,

22 especially citrus.
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1 Thank you. And I have provided a

2 medium and an audio with a lot of information. 

3 Thank you very much.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

5 questions from the Board?

6 (No audible response)

7 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm not seeing any

8 questions. Thank you very much for your

9 comments.

10 MR. SKARIA: Thank you.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next, Shannon Sabara.

12 Shannon, are you here?

13 MS. SABARA: I am here.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Excellent.

15 MS. SABARA: Can you hear me?

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can, Shannon. 

17 Hold on one second.

18 After Shannon, Roberto Ramirez. We

19 haven't found Roberto. If you're on the line,

20 please message Michelle. And after Roberto is

21 Robin Seeley.

22 Shannon, if you can, start with your
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1 name, relevant affiliation, and then proceed into

2 your comments.

3 MS. SABARA: My name is Shannon Sbara. 

4 I'm an aquaponic farmer for the past five years. 

5 I am strongly for allowing aquaponic farms to be

6 organically certified.

7 In addition to the multitude of other

8 reasons that have already been stated during this

9 hearing, I have just one essential point of

10 clarification. Our nutrients, whether in soil,

11 in a hydroponic system, or in an aquaponic

12 system, ultimately enter the root zones in a

13 liquid form.

14 In other words, the fungi and bacteria

15 that facilitate the interchange of nutrients

16 transfer those molecules in an aqueous form. 

17 I'll say it again. Water, not soil, is the

18 delivery mechanism for nutrients. Bacteria and

19 fungi are responsible for making those nutrients

20 available, but water is responsible for the

21 uptake.

22 Aquaponics and soil farming both rely
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1 on microorganisms to make nutrients available. 

2 And they both rely on water to liquidize the

3 nutrients so that the plants can use them.

4 On another note, one of the Board

5 members on Tuesday asked a fellow aquaponic

6 farmer about mycorrhizae in the soil. And I

7 wanted to follow-up. What I can say is that

8 there's a diverse spectrum of microorganisms in

9 aquaponic systems.

10 Some of them less scientifically 

11 about fungi in aquaponic systems, but as I

12 understand it, fungi primarily occur in the root

13 zone. And there's no reason to believe that

14 mycorrhizae are not present in an aquaponic

15 environment.

16 Both organic soil farmers and

17 aquaponic farmers have been experimenting with

18 adding beneficial fungi to their systems. I

19 don't think it's appropriate to determine if the

20 farm is organic or not based on whether fungi are

21 present.

22 If the presence of fungi on the roots
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1 is a requirement for organic certification, then

2 it should be something that can be tested in both

3 soil and aquaponic farms. Our organic farms

4 should be held to the same scientifically

5 verifiable standards.

6 One more example from nature. Where

7 I live there is a lot of lava rock. And because

8 lava rock is very porous, it can hold water, and

9 we retrieve the plants growing straight out of

10 the lava rock with no soil at all. Even in

11 nature, soil is not required. Thank you.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

13 questions from the Board?

14 (No audible response)

15 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm not seeing any

16 questions from the Board. Thank you very much

17 for your comments.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Tom, I just saw Asa

19 raise his hand.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Sorry. Asa raised his

21 hand.

22 MR. BRADMAN: Hi. This is a question
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1 I wanted to ask earlier to another aquaponic

2 producer. But actually, this is really to

3 everyone that I'm asking, that you think about it

4 on all sides of this issue.

5 And there was a reference earlier to

6 kind of support for the CCOF suggestions of kind

7 of a compromise labeling that would distinguish,

8 for example, hydroponics and aquaponics. And I

9 want everyone to think about that. And I've seen

10 opinions on it from all sides, but I'd like your

11 opinion on that as well.

12 MS. SABARA: Thank you for that

13 question. Yes, I think that, you know, organic

14 is something that customers have learned to rely

15 on, on choosing organic as a simple way to become

16 -- and whether and or not it's a food that is

17 healthy for them and good for the environment.

18 And I think that we need to really

19 think about the spirit of that organic

20 certification and try not to get caught up in

21 politics, for one, but also not getting caught up

22 in anything that can't be scientifically verified
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1 with, you know, real reasons behind changes that

2 are going to be made.

3 So with that said, I actually --- you

4 know, we have aquaponics on our label. We are

5 proud of being aquaponic. And I personally have

6 no problem being an aquaponic organic provider. 

7 And if you want to make that a separate label,

8 that's the same difference to me.

9 I do think that aquaponics should be

10 distinguished from general hydroponics. I think

11 that that's important. And I think that it

12 should be --- I think we should just be really

13 careful before we make things more complicated

14 for the consumer.

15 Because in my experience, you know,

16 it's a lot of work to even explain to somebody

17 what aquaponics is, and to develop that

18 relationship with our consumers to help them

19 understand why we're doing aquaponics, and why we

20 actually think that it's important, and why we

21 think that aquaponics is actually a great way to

22 provide stewardship for the environment and for
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1 the soil.

2 Because aquaponics, you know, we're

3 not using a recirculating system for our water. 

4 We're actually providing stewardship for the

5 soil, because we're not doing anything bad to the

6 soil, you know, if that makes sense.

7 And we're not sending any of our

8 organic fertilizers down into the watershed,

9 which does affect the watershed system. So

10 there's a lot of things that we're doing that are

11 benefitting the environment and helping the

12 organic certification. So, yes, I think that ---

13 MR. CHAPMAN: I need to cut you off. 

14 Two more questions for anyone from Francis and

15 one from Steve. If you could try to stick to

16 answering the question as directly as possible. 

17 Thank you.

18 MS. SABARA: Yes.

19 MR. THICKE: Thank you, Shannon, for

20 your comments. And one comment you made about

21 all nutrients go through the water, are you

22 familiar with the principle of contact exchange,
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1 that plant roots can touch soil particles and

2 actually directly exchange ions with the soil

3 without necessarily going through the water

4 medium?

5 MS. SABARA: I guess I can't say that

6 I am an expert in that, on any level. I was

7 speaking more generally. So I can't really speak

8 to that specifically.

9 I can say that generally, you know,

10 the way that plants generally get their nutrients

11 is through the water. And that would be, I'm

12 sure, most of the time. And anything other than

13 getting nutrients through the water is probably

14 more of a one-off situation and not something

15 that, I think, is a standard way of nutrient

16 uptake.

17 MR. THICKE: Thank you.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Steve?

19 MR. ELA: Well, to follow-up with

20 that, and I was the one that asked the

21 mycorrhizae question the other day. But, I mean,

22 my understanding is that, you know, as we are
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1 investigating --- and I think this is a work in

2 progress in the scientific community --- that we

3 are seeing that the mycorrhizae are actually the

4 medium in between the water system and the plant

5 root.

6 And many times, it's not actually the

7 plant root directly taking up that nutrient,

8 although they may be able to, but it's the

9 mycorrhizal system that forages for those

10 nutrients and then feeds that into the plant.

11 So I'm curious. I mean, you just

12 said, you know, some of these plant soil contacts

13 are one-off. But to me, the research is showing

14 even more that it's not a direct exchange. You

15 know, I'd just like to follow-up on that a little

16 bit with you.

17 MS. SABARA: Okay. So, like I said,

18 I am not a scientist that has an expertise in

19 this. So I can get some follow-up information to

20 you, as I can talk to somebody that has more

21 actual knowledge of this subject.

22 What I can say is that, like I said,
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1 I really do think that whatever the standards

2 are, they need to be applied to both soil farmers

3 and aquaponic farmers. There shouldn't be any,

4 you know, any reason that aquaponics should be

5 excluded when we don't have scientifically

6 researched, you know, actual scientific research

7 that says it's not happening in aquaponic

8 systems.

9 So far, it's just hearsay. You know,

10 there's no reason to think that mycorrhizae are

11 not in an aquaponic system.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Shannon. 

13 That's it for questions on our end. So we're

14 going to move to the commenter that's -- because

15 we were moving quite ahead of schedule now, not

16 ahead of schedule, but we're still doing great. 

17 So we're going to go back to Dana Perls. Dana

18 Perls, are you on the line?

19 MS. PERLS: I am. Can you hear me?

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. Hold on

21 one second.

22 MS. PERLS: Okay.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: After Dana, we'll go to

2 Roberto Ramirez, and then Robin Seeley. Dana, if

3 you can start with your name and affiliation, and

4 then proceed with your comments.

5 MS. PERLS: Great. Well, thank you

6 for circling back. Apologies for being late. My

7 name is Dana Perls. And I am a senior food and

8 technology campaigner with Friends of the Earth

9 U.S.

10 And I would like to comment on

11 excluded methods in synthetic biology. I've been

12 tracking fishing for four and a half years, and

13 I'm honored to be part of the Materials

14 Subcommittee Ad Hoc Working Group on the issue.

15 I'd like to provide comment on the

16 Materials Subcommittee proposal on excluded

17 methods. We'd like to strongly urge the

18 Materials and GMO Subcommittee to include several

19 techniques in the excluded methods list, namely

20 cisgenesis, intragenesis, agroinfiltration, and

21 transposons. They should be included in its

22 excluded methods terminology.
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1 We want to ensure that we have an

2 organic certification which really addresses

3 these emerging biotechnologies and new techniques

4 which some are trying to apply to agriculture.

5 And in November 2016, last year the

6 NOSB voted unanimously to update US organic

7 standards to exclude ingredients derived from

8 next generation genetic engineering and gene

9 editing.

10 As NOSB already established, these new

11 genetic engineering techniques are not compatible

12 with organic and sustainable agriculture, and

13 currently the list of techniques that are

14 excluded methods is incomplete. And there are

15 several currently marked TBD techniques that we

16 believe fall within the NOSB definition of

17 genetic engineering and modern biotech.

18 So again, we want to include

19 cisgenesis, intragenesis, agroinfiltration, and

20 transposons. The first three, cisgenesis,

21 intragenesis, and agroinfiltration, all involve

22 intentional genetic modification. And these
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1 three techniques clearly fall under the NOSB's

2 already adopted definition of modern

3 biotechnology and therefore should be excluded

4 techniques.

5 And lastly, I just want to note that

6 although transposons are, in fact, used in some

7 cases to make genetically engineered animal

8 vaccines, and those are not prohibited in

9 organic, they do fall under the new criteria for

10 excluded methods that was adopted last year.

11 So we recommend that, as a

12 clarification, transposons for use in creating

13 genetically engineered plants or animals should

14 be listed in the guidance on excluded methods and

15 the terminology chart as excluded.

16 And then perhaps it could be

17 accompanied with a note clarifying that their use

18 in animal vaccines may be currently permitted

19 under the current rules, permitted in organic,

20 but that it should be excluded for use in

21 creating genetically engineered plants and

22 animals.
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1 So just to sum up, you know, we

2 support the improvements and updates to the

3 standards which are going to preserve the

4 integrity of organic classification. And in

5 order for that to really happen, NOSB should

6 exclude the new gene editing and some

7 biotechniques from organic by updating the list

8 of excluded techniques.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Dana.

10 MS. PERLS: Yes.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Any questions from the

12 Board?

13 (No audible response)

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Not seeing any

15 questions, so thank you very much. And moving

16 on, we have Roberto Ramirez next, followed by

17 Robin Seeley, and then Marc Ketchel.

18 Roberto, are you on the line with us?

19 MR. RAMIRIZ: Yes, I'm here. Can you

20 hear me?

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. Roberto,

22 if you could start with your name, and
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1 affiliation, and then move into your comments.

2 MR. RAMIREZ: Sure. Good afternoon. 

3 My name is Roberto Ramirez. I manage 70 acres 

4 of substrate grown berries in upstate California. 

5 Twenty-six acres of the 70 are organic.

6 I am here to encourage the members of

7 the Board to vote no on the Crop Subcommittee

8 recommendation for container production. There

9 are several reasons why these proposals should be

10 voted no. But here are some of the main reasons.

11 Recommendation is not reasonable for

12 any crop. It is prescriptive to follow certain

13 farming practices that are barred from advisable

14 and not well sustained.

15 It is not in the spirit of organics,

16 because is not considered in site-specific

17 conditions. And it would create pollution to my

18 soils and my farm by being across the

19 distribution.

20 The recommendations might exclude

21 growing systems different to soil farming because

22 these will create toxic conditions for crops at
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1 the root zone level avoiding any new growth.

2 Perennial crops are clearly not

3 considered. Providing annual nitrogen needs of a

4 plant in a solid form would require me to incur

5 an excessive labor hours and waste of resources. 

6 To fulfill this requirement after year one will

7 make my business unviable. Minimum wage in

8 California is increasing gradually, and it will

9 get up to $15 per hour by 2021.

10 Soluble or liquid form of nitrogen

11 production does not mean it is on the viable form

12 for plants which is the ionic form of elements,

13 especially nitrogen. For nitrogen to be

14 available to plants from the organic fertilizer

15 solid, liquid, or soluble, it needs to go through

16 the nitrogen cycle that, by the way, needs to

17 happen in solution.

18 I urge the Board to vote no on this

19 recommendation and for it to be sent back to

20 Crops Subcommittee for further definition of

21 container growing standards.

22 There are less prescriptive farming
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1 practices and more inclusive of alternate

2 production practices that still remain true to

3 the spirit and principles of organic farming.

4 I would like to thank the Board for

5 the opportunity to comment on this subject of

6 interest to my farming and for their time and

7 effort. I will be happy to answer questions.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Roberto. Any

9 questions from the Board?

10 I am not seeing, oh, Francis, go

11 ahead.

12 MR. THICKE: Quickly, can you tell us

13 what you use for a substrate or growing medium in

14 your operation?

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Yes, of course. That is

16 how we determine what kind of substrate we're

17 going use is depending on the site-specific

18 conditions, meaning that one of the main

19 components is water quality, the climate, and

20 depending on that, we will variate the components

21 of it.

22 But mainly, it might be composed of
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1 coco coir, peat moss, perlite, gypsum, rock

2 phosphate. And we're starting to experiment a

3 little bit with some burning compost.

4 We've been doing this, or I've been

5 doing this for about a little bit over a year

6 with some of the berries that we work with. And

7 it's still very early for us to define a set

8 percentage of this and that. So we're still

9 discovering that as we go on a commercial size

10 farm.

11 MR. THICKE: Thank you.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you,

13 Roberto, I'm not seeing any other questions from

14 the Board. So we're going to move on.

15 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Next we have Robin

17 Seeley, followed by Marc Ketchel, and then Caleb

18 Adams. Robin, are you on the line?

19 MS. SEELEY: Yes, I am.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Excellent. And you can

21 start with your name, and affiliation, and then

22 proceed to your comments.
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1 MS. SEELEY: Yes. I'm Robin Hadlock

2 Seeley. I'm a senior research associate at

3 Cornell University and also a faculty fellow at

4 the Atkinson Center for a Sustainable Future at

5 Cornell.

6 Thank you all for your time and

7 interest during the webinar. My focus is the

8 issue of marine materials, also known as marine

9 algae, aquatic plant extract, kelp, and seaweed. 

10 I've been working on wild sea harvesting for 17

11 years.

12 Most recently, NOSB documents relating

13 to November of 2016, the marine materials

14 Discussion document. It identifies several

15 issues among the 205.207 wild crop harvesting

16 standards.

17 And the discussion document ended by

18 stating production of marine materials must be

19 based on the maintenance of biodiversity of

20 natural aquatic ecosystems and the continuing

21 health of the surrounding aquatic and terrestrial

22 ecosystems.
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1 What is defined here, as one of the

2 kelps, which is important in agriculture and

3 critically important to marine systems, is as is

4 shown here.

5 After getting support the marine

6 community of over 100 species of birds, fish, and

7 invertebrates, including a school of fish shown

8 in Panel A in this slide, and the Atlantic puffin

9 shown here in Panel C.

10 Panel D shows what happened underwater

11 after a machine seeding harvester. Removal of

12 whole plants creating empty space that will

13 quickly be rebuilt like a forest clear cut with

14 species that do not provide the same logical

15 services and the shore bird seeding forest which

16 has had its canopy removed.

17 I believe there must be further

18 guidance for NOP on the production of marine

19 algae or seaweeds for any product, whether it is

20 organic and derived from wild seaweed, and which

21 addresses the problem of whether the cutting of

22 the wild crop meets standards already established
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1 for wild crop harvesting in 205.207, and

2 establishes more appropriate standards for

3 certifiers working in the marine environment so

4 the consumer can be assured that products based

5 on this wild seaweed harvest maintain

6 biodiversity and the health of marine ecosystems.

7 Canadian researchers have stated that,

8 because of human pressures, the protection of

9 marine vegetative habitats should be a national

10 priority. I look forward to further discussions

11 and work with you on this important issue. Thank

12 you.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

14 questions from the Board?

15 (No audible response)

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Not seeing any

17 questions, oh, sorry. Emily? I don't know if

18 you're unmuted.

19 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you. So, Dr.

20 Seeley, you have this IB or photo. Could you

21 tell how that image might compare differently

22 with a method of harvesting other.
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1 MS. SEELEY: Mechanical harvesting

2 tends to make a higher rate. 

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any other

4 questions from the Board?

5 (No audible response)

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Seeing none, Robin,

7 thank you very much for your testimony today.

8 Up next Marc Ketchel, followed by

9 Caleb Adams, and then Dave Talbert. Marc, are

10 you on the line with us?

11 MR. KETCHEL: Yes, can you hear me?

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can, Marc. If

13 you can start with your name, and relevant

14 affiliation, and proceed with comments.

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Okay, Tom, and Marc,

16 can I just interrupt for a second? This is

17 Michelle. We're getting a little background

18 noise. So just a reminder for everyone on the

19 line to mute yourself. Thanks.

20 All right, Marc, sorry to interrupt.

21 MR. KETCHEL: No worries, thank you. 

22 Thank you very much. I appreciate the
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1 opportunity to address the Board.

2 My name is Marc Ketchel, and I am a

3 certified handler. My company is the Organic

4 Pure Foods Company. I've been certified in one

5 company or another since the inception of this,

6 so I have a little bit of background with organic

7 certification.

8 And I'm currently in the chia business

9 and have been for about ten years. I've traveled

10 extensively all over the world and looked at

11 every chia farm that I could find. And we have a

12 very big problem right now in the marketplace

13 with contamination, pesticide contamination in

14 chia.

15 We do have it, obviously, with other

16 grains but chia in particular. And that's my

17 specialty. And I'd like to ask the Board very

18 simply to include glyphosate, as a minimum, there

19 could be many others but glyphosate as a minimum,

20 as the largest and the most widely used herbicide

21 in the world.

22 And it's not one of the required tests
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1 that the certifiers, whenever there's -- I guess,

2 my understanding is there's many triggers to when

3 a certifier can request a certification of a

4 producer or a processor.

5 And the tests that are required or

6 that are expected, again I'm not very clear about

7 the exact rule, but glyphosate is not on the

8 list. And I think that's a major oversight as,

9 again, the largest, most widely used herbicide in

10 the world.

11 So that's my simple request. I think

12 we need to tighten this up. We have -- we tested

13 about, just for the Board's information, I mean,

14 we tested about 100 different lots.

15 And when I say lots I'm talking about

16 representative composite field samples for over

17 100 different fields last year. And all of them,

18 these were certified organic producers, all of

19 them found glyphosate contamination, every single

20 one of them.

21 And my company has a zero tolerance

22 for pesticides. We don't want --- we want zero. 
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1 I know that's not reasonable, but that is what we

2 continue to maintain, and I continue to try to

3 push for it.

4 And I've tried to create, and we are

5 creating independent organic zones in South

6 America where we're growing. And we're talking

7 about very large tracts of land where there's no

8 contaminated processes going on within miles,

9 kilometers.

10 That's it, a real simple request. I

11 think it can be done very easily. And the

12 upstream --- the downstream costs to producers

13 and to the market, with everybody involved, is

14 way more than the initial testing.

15 (Off the record comments)

16 MR. KETCHEL: Yes, that's great, thank

17 you.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I see I have

19 a question from Scott.

20 MR. RICE: Yes. I have a question and

21 a comment. Marc, when you have done your testing

22 of the chia lots, are you doing that --- what's
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1 your timeframe? Are you, for instance, is it

2 done in the field? Are you doing it with

3 products in storage or how is that --

4 MR. KETCHEL: No. Okay, yes, good

5 question. The whole testing process is a bit of

6 a --- it's a conundrum. But giving the long and

7 short answer directly to your question is we kept

8 that normally in the processing, in the post9 harvest processing in the plant. Which -- well,

10 in the plant, what I mean is the processing

11 plant.

12 And so the process of chia, again,

13 very briefly, is that it's harvested with a

14 combine in the field, and then it is brought to

15 the processing plant where it's de-hulled and

16 cleaned up in the ---

17 MS. ARSENAULT: Sorry.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: We're getting someone

19 who is speaking in the background.

20 (Off the record comments)

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Thanks, Tom. Hi, just

22 a reminder to please keep yourself on mute. 
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1 We're getting background conversations. Thanks.

2 MR. KETCHEL: Did I get that question

3 answered sufficiently, or should I clarify?

4 MR. RICE: No, I think I got it. I

5 have just a comment on that. But, you know,

6 while glyphosate may not be in the NOP's list of

7 materials to test for, it is something that

8 certifiers could certainly opt to do when there's

9 a risk identified.

10 And my understanding of, you know, the

11 challenge of the testing for glyphosate is that

12 you've got a very short half-life. So often you

13 may not see a crop of any kind tested for

14 glyphosate. It's typically because of a report

15 of spraying, and there's a fairly close reaction

16 time when a certifier can get their soil samples.

17 But it's, you know, it is an option

18 for certifiers. And I guess my question to you

19 is are these, if it's present, something that's

20 being shared with your certifier on a regular

21 basis or when you find that? That's something

22 that, it's required by the regulation and could
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1 help, you know, your systems become a little

2 stronger in tracking that down.

3 MR. KETCHEL: Okay. Well, let me

4 again briefly, in the interest of time, tell you

5 that, yes, we are communicating with my

6 certifier. We have a very close relationship. I

7 spoke to him this morning, as a matter of fact. 

8 And I'm one of the most knowledgeable people in

9 the certification business.

10 And this is what we've done. We test

11 --- we don't let any of this material come in to

12 our company. We don't let any material come in

13 to the country, because we do all of our testing

14 down there. And then we test it again up here,

15 sometimes twice up here.

16 So we make sure that we don't have it

17 in our material. But that material is being sold

18 to other buyers that are more unscrupulous. I

19 mean, most buyers don't want to even hear about

20 it. They don't want anybody to even talk about

21 it. Don't ask me about pesticides. I don't test

22 for pesticides. They don't, and they won't.
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1 And so we've got a small handful of

2 high quality buyers that buy large quantities

3 that actually do test. And they test themselves.

4 So we test down there, we test up here. Then

5 some of my, you know, good buyers, they test

6 themselves. So that's the way we're dealing with

7 it.

8 But as far as your question about the

9 half-life and all that, I'm sorry, but we're not

10 finding that at all. We're testing weeks and

11 months later and still finding material.

12 So I don't know, again, I'm not a

13 scientist. But I just want to share that

14 information. I'm giving you practical, you know,

15 real life examples of what's actually going on.

16 MR. RICE: Thank you. Thank you,

17 Marc.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Marc, I have a question

19 for you, and I don't know if you can answer it. 

20 But can you comment on the conventional practice

21 of chia production, to do a pre-harvest

22 desiccation spray ---
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1 MR. KETCHEL: I would say close to 100

2 percent.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay.

4 MR. KETCHEL: And again, some of the

5 organic producers are doing the same thing.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. And I think the

7 intention of the testing was that the USDA had

8 originally put out, was looking for pesticides

9 used in the production of a crop, not

10 particularly the desiccation of a crop. But your

11 point is well raised, in my opinion.

12 MR. KETCHEL: So, I mean, until --- I

13 mean, I don't understand what you're saying. 

14 Because production includes all the waste that

15 gets in the bag, right. Until it gets in the

16 bag, I mean, desiccation is part of the

17 production process.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: I agree, I agree with

19 you. I think that may not have been the view

20 when that entire list was originally sent out. 

21 So, like I said, your point is well made. And I

22 understand what you're saying.
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1 PARTICIPANT: I have a question here

2 from Sue Baird.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Sue?

4 MS. BAIRD: Yes, hi. I really commend

5 what you're doing. I think it's important. I

6 think, philosophically, I truly, truly support

7 what you're doing.

8 I wonder though if we tested every 

9 commodity crop, if you would have any organic

10 crop production, especially corn and some of the

11 things that pollination happens. And what do we

12 do? I ponder this question.

13 And so I commend you. But I just want

14 to figure to out what to do. Do we just get rid

15 of all organics? Because I would dare say that

16 most of the organic crops are contaminated at

17 some level. Non-GMO projects and other non-GMO

18 testing requires testing and established

19 policies. This is established policies. Is that

20 where we go with this thing?

21 MR. KETCHEL: Should I make a brief

22 comment?
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, please.

2 MR. KETCHEL: Well, I was one of the

3 first people to kind of deal with this way back

4 when the law was being put together. And I've

5 heard this argument before.

6 But I can tell you that it is possible

7 for us to establish a more stringent guideline. 

8 And that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that

9 100 percent zero is possible for all crops. But

10 I think that we need to, and I think the Board is

11 hearing this, that we do need to get a little bit

12 more rigid in our guidelines and see if we can

13 clamp down a little bit more.

14 We've got just too --- it's too much 

15 right now. There's too much room for people to

16 take advantage of the situation. And that's

17 what's happened.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much for

19 your comments.

20 MR. KETCHEL: Thank you very much for

21 your time, appreciate it.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next we have Caleb
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1 Adams, followed by Dave Talbert.

2 MS. ARSENAULT: We're getting some

3 feedback. And I can't hear you anymore --

4 (Off the record comments)

5 MS. ARSENAULT: Please put your phone

6 on mute ---

7 (Off the record comments)

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Push the button on

9 your phone, please hit Star 6. And if you're on

10 your computer with a headset, please make sure

11 your speakers and mic are muted. That's usually

12 when we get feedback.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, that's probably the

14 issue with Caleb. Caleb, I just muted you in

15 another way. I'm going to try to un-mute you. 

16 But please turn your speakers down.

17 MR. ADAMS: Okay, can you hear me?

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, I can hear you.

19 MR. ADAMS: Perfect, great. So I am

20 Caleb Adams. I am the VP of Organic Research and

21 Development for CleanWorld. We are an anaerobic

22 digester technology company.
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1 So I tried to time myself to see how

2 long my comments would take. And I went slightly

3 over and hour in three minutes. So I might not

4 be able to cover everything related to the

5 subject.

6 I wanted to discuss a few of the

7 benefits and issues related to the use of

8 digesting and organic farming. Anaerobic

9 digesters offer some key benefits to the organic

10 industry. And anaerobic digesters are critical

11 for diverting organic waste from landfills and

12 recycling nutrients back to farms, an important

13 aspect for organic farming.

14 Anaerobic digesters are also the

15 documented carbon negative process that will help

16 reduce the carbon footprint of the organic

17 industry while producing renewable energy in the

18 form of electricity, vehicle fuel, and heat.

19 For the organic industry to utilize

20 digestive fertilizers, the NOP guidelines and

21 regulations need to be reconsidered to address

22 issues related to digesting.
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1 Due to the time restrictions for this

2 comment period, I'll only be able to address one

3 example. However, I would propose a follow-up to

4 discuss the issues in more detail.

5 One of the issues related to manure,

6 that is related to manure digesters. The

7 guidelines have put a 90 to 120-day restriction

8 on manure digesting. That is 5006 manure

9 processing has been adopted to manure digestate

10 and basically states that the digestate must be

11 pasteurized to 165 degrees amp and dried to 12

12 percent moisture content.

13 This makes sense for the solids

14 fractions but does not take into consideration

15 that the digestate is comprised of two fractions,

16 a liquid and a solid fraction.

17 The liquid fraction can comprise up to

18 95 percent of the total volume of the digestate

19 and cannot be dried to 12 percent moisture

20 content. The pasteurization step alone is

21 sufficient to mute pathogen reduction as you can

22 see by multiple peer-reviewed papers.
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1 One of the papers out of Finland,

2 Methods to Reduce Alphagen and hypoorganisms in

3 manure, states that the European Union

4 regulations on objectives implemented in 2002

5 required digesters to pasteurize at 17 for 60

6 minutes. It does not require drying insufficient

7 for pathogen reduction and food safety.

8 I highly recommend that this guidance

9 be revisited and adapted to address the liquid

10 fraction. I also hope that the Board will reach

11 out to members of the digester industry to

12 discuss all of the potential issues related to

13 the digester use. Thank you.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

15 questions from the Board?

16 (No audible response)

17 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm not seeing any

18 questions at this time. Thank you very much,

19 Caleb, for your comments.

20 Up next we have Dave Talbert, then

21 Mark Lipson, and Miraj Patel. Dave Talbert, are

22 you on the line?
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: We haven't been able

2 to find Dave on the line, Tom.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. Dave, going

4 once, going twice. Mark Lipson, are you on the

5 line? I can see you on the web version, but I

6 don't ---

7 MR. LIPSON: I am on the line.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Excellent. Hi, Mark.

9 MR. LIPSON: I just had to find my

10 mute button. Thank you.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: So after Mark is Miraj

12 Patel, which I have not seen you on the line. 

13 And after Miraj is Bill Wolf and then Kyle

14 Manico.

15 Mark, if you would us know who you

16 are, can you start off with your name and

17 affiliation?

18 MR. LIPSON: Hi, this is Mark Lipson. 

19 I'm a partner in Molino Creek Farming Collective. 

20 I'm currently the senior program and policy

21 specialist at the Organic Farming Research

22 Foundation in Santa Cruz, California. And I'm
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1 the former USDA organic policy advisor.

2 On behalf of OFRF, I'm commenting

3 today on the research recommendations of the

4 Board. I'm not offering any specific input on

5 individual items, but I just wanted to comment on

6 the overall efficacy and evolution of the Board's

7 function regarding research recommendations and

8 priorities.

9 It is my observation that the Board's

10 recommendations have been useful to the USDA

11 Organic Research and Extension Initiative and the

12 Organic Transitions Research Program and has, you

13 know, produced some results, for example,

14 research work on thiamine and antibiotic pest

15 controls that have been funded by the OREI

16 program, a direct result of the Board's and the

17 NOP program's expressions of research needs. So

18 there is a track record of effect for the Board,

19 you know, continuing to make these

20 recommendations.

21 Well, I'll suggest that we need a kind

22 of comprehensive review of how this process is
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1 functioning and how well it's able to actually

2 affect the research portfolios and the timeliness

3 with which scientific work gets done to meet the

4 needs of the program and the organic sector.

5 I'm not very clear on how that's been

6 happening. My understanding is that the latest

7 recommendations continue to be sent to the

8 research and extension officials in USDA by the

9 program. And those have, you know, clearly

10 showed up in the annual request for applications

11 by the OREI program.

12 It would be good if we are able to do

13 something more comprehensive, looking at all of

14 these things that have accumulated on the list

15 over the years, and make an assessment of what

16 kind of work has been done, the extent to which

17 it's meeting the needs, and how there might be

18 alternative ways of meeting the need for more and

19 better science.

20 And, you know, I just want to --- this

21 is more of a personal observation, in 1990 when

22 the Organic Foods Production Act was passed, what
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1 got left on the cutting room floor was a research

2 title to the act.

3 We didn't manage to get around to

4 getting funding for organic research and

5 establishing an organic research program within

6 USDA. And so right about the time that --

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Mark, I'm going to have

8 to cut you off there. Sorry about that.

9 MR. LIPSON: No, it's all right.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: I do have a question 

11 for you from Emily.

12 (Off the record comments)

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Emily, go ahead.

14 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you. Mark, I agree

15 with your assessment. And I wanted to ask you if

16 you had suggestions for how the NOSB might assess

17 the work that's been done on these issues and

18 elaborate alternative ways to get more research

19 done on the science.

20 Do you think a discussion document to

21 the broader stakeholder community to elucidate

22 what's been done and another alternative would be
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1 the right approach? Or do you have other

2 suggestions?

3 MR. LIPSON: First suggestion is the

4 document that was produced by Organic Farming

5 Research Foundation last year entitled, "Taking

6 Stock," which is a pretty comprehensive review of

7 all the work that the Organic Research and

8 Extension Initiative has done.

9 And part of that report does hold up

10 the work that's been produced with OREI funding

11 against the issues that have been raised by NOSB

12 and NOP with respect to materials, and practices,

13 and their relationship to the rule.

14 So that's a very good place to start. 

15 There's still a lot of material there that, you

16 know, hasn't really been dug into by anyone.

17 So development of a discussion

18 document seems like a really good idea, trying to

19 convene a meeting with the USDA Research

20 Extension Education Offices to discuss their

21 approach to reviewing the same questions would

22 also be productive. And I think the program, you
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1 know, and the ANS administrator could initiate

2 that.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Mark. I have

4 a question from Ashley.

5 MS. SWAFFAR: Hi, Mark. Thanks for

6 your comment. I just wanted to ask if you could

7 send that report to Michelle, so she can forward

8 to the rest of us.

9 MR. LIPSON: Absolutely.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. I'm not

12 seeing any other questions. Mark, thank you for

13 your comment.

14 MR. LIPSON: Thank you all very much.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next we had Miraj

16 Patel. We haven't found him online. So, that's

17 line 1. Raj, are you here? And twice. Up next

18 is Bill Wolf. Bill, are you here?

19 MS. ARSENAULT: Bill is on the line,

20 Tom. He came in a little while ago. So, Bill,

21 if you're talking, you're on mute.

22 MR. WOLF: Can you hear me now?
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: Yes, we can.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: We can hear you now,

3 Bill. Bill, hold on one moment. After Bill we

4 have Kyle Manico, and then Kristen Adams. Bill,

5 if you could start with your name and affiliation

6 for the record?

7 MR. WOLF: I'm Bill Wolf, with Wolf,

8 DiMatteo and Associates. I also have an organic

9 farm, and am founder of Thorvin, a certified

10 organic kelp seaweed company.

11 Wolf DiMatteo helps farmers, food

12 companies, NGOs, and Governments to grow the

13 organic industry. Since 1992 we have presented

14 comments to the NOSB. Each in person

15 presentation for the last 25 years was intended

16 to encourage continuous improvement of the

17 organic system.

18 For this meeting we submitted written

19 comments on three topics that I request you read

20 and act on regarding sodium nitrate,

21 biodegradable mulch, and inerts. Past comments

22 from the spring meeting are also relevant,
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1 including specific recommendations on lowering an

2 algae.

3 In this three minutes I'd like to

4 share some strategic requests intended to improve

5 the organic standards on the National List, these

6 three specifics.

7 One, require an organic when available

8 for the National List specifically in Section

9 605, not just 606. Applying commercial

10 availability will stimulate innovation.

11 Two, don't make the regulations, and

12 especially the annotations, too proscriptive. It

13 causes unintended consequences, and makes it

14 harder to interpret. Certifications should still

15 be based on common sense principles.

16 And three, place and keep materials on

17 the National List that will be useful, and align

18 with the organic paradigm. The National List is

19 a toolbox. And the goal is not to have it

20 shrinked, but rather to have producers and

21 handlers grow organic with integrity.

22 We need choices, not just one solution
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1 for a specific problem. So, how do you decide on

2 these materials and issues? Let's okay an

3 organic.

4 I'd like you to remember the slides

5 I've shared with you in the past about thinking

6 like an earthworm. Imagine what produces and

7 practices promote our biotic living system across

8 all walks of life. Visualizing this can help

9 sort out what should be allowed, what should be

10 unallowed organic practice.

11 So, this criteria quantifies this

12 principle, but was not intended to overly

13 restrict it to a box organic producers and

14 handlers need. So again, we ask don't make

15 shrinking the National List to a box a goal.

16 Be open to innovation and creativity

17 that fits the organic philosophy. And realize

18 that the precautionary principle truly cuts both

19 ways. We do have a responsibility to act when a

20 better solution emerges. Your vote helps

21 increase organic acreage and earthworms.

22 Finally, thank you. As a volunteer
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1 Board you are asked to take many challenging

2 questions. I appreciate that your efforts can

3 make organics a powerful part of transforming

4 agriculture. I welcome questions.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Bill. Any

6 questions for Bill? Emily, I don't know if the

7 question was for Bill. Do you have a question?

8 MS. OAKLEY: It was actually just to

9 follow up on the last one. But that's okay. 

10 Although I do think it's interesting, and would

11 like Bill to elaborate further on his 605

12 comment, in terms of looking for a certified

13 organic unavailable. And then you can mute me.

14 MR. WOLF: Well, thank you for asking. 

15 We've been having that, this discussion about the

16 idea of applying commercial availability to 605,

17 especially to natural materials on 605, for

18 probably decades.

19 And it hasn't gotten much traction. 

20 But it would solve a number of problems that

21 occur when people come forward and actually

22 develop a certified organic version of a
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1 currently not organic crude ingredients that's

2 allowed.

3 You may not have been around for the

4 yeast wars. But it was pretty painful, even on

5 the attempt to clarify yeast is a good example of

6 that. And it's not, it shouldn't be a difficult

7 change. And in fact, aligns with some of the

8 international approaches to standards.

9 I'm tempted to say similar things

10 about 601 and 603, but in a different context. 

11 Because, for example, the Canadian organic regs

12 require the use of organic sources of fertilizers

13 when it's commercially available.

14 So, if you can get renewal from an

15 organic farm, and that system, we grow the system

16 enough so that we have that capacity, then that

17 becomes a commercial availability requirement. 

18 Thank you for the opportunity.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Bill. I also

20 have a question from Harriet. Harriet, you're on

21 mute. Hold on. Harriet, go ahead now.

22 MS. BEHAR: Hello. Okay. Bill, just
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1 in a short sentence or two, do you support the

2 Crop Subcommittee proposal on hydroponics? 

3 Coming --

4 MR. WOLF: Whoa. In one sentence? 

5 Honestly, I think that you parse the issue, and

6 it's a challenging issue. I'm not thrilled with

7 the idea of drilling down to the measuring of

8 nitrogen, and creating that very challenging

9 method of verification.

10 Because we already, we have enough

11 problems with certification review just taking

12 the grading standard as an example. I think

13 you're, I think it's getting close. But there is

14 some, been some really good comments made.

15 One more thought. And I just have to

16 share it. I think that there is room for some

17 form of aquaponics system, you know, in the

18 organic paradigm. And I think we have to

19 understand that better.

20 I think reaching out to someone like

21 Dr. John Todd would be a useful tool in that

22 conversation. Thank you. Thanks for the
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1 opportunity.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Bill. I'm

3 not seeing any other questions. So, we'll move

4 on to the next commenter. And up next we have

5 Kyle Manico. We haven't found you on the line. 

6 Kyle, are you here? Kyle going once, going

7 twice. All right. And after Kyle we have

8 Kristen Adams. Kristen, are you on the line?

9 MS. ADAMS: I am. Can you hear me?

10 MR. CHAPMAN: We can, Kristen. Hold

11 on one second. After Kristen we have Damon

12 Seawright. Damon, I haven't seen you on the

13 line. And after Damon is Edwin Horton. And then

14 Eric Sideman. Kristen, if you could start with

15 your name and affiliation?

16 MS. ADAMS: I'm Kristen Adams, MOSA,

17 Midwest Organic Services Association. Thank you

18 as always for the opportunity to provide comments

19 on both field and greenhouse container production

20 with special documents, and the hydroponic and

21 container growing recommendations.

22 MOSA currently certifies about 2,000
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1 organic operations throughout the United States,

2 including 349 clients certified for greenhouse

3 production, about three clients in five for

4 aquaponic production, and the same for hydroponic

5 production.

6 Regarding the field and the greenhouse

7 container production discussions last few

8 minutes, we support the community having this

9 discussion, and the development of guidance as

10 needed.

11 However, our concern is the 20 percent

12 limit of the plant's nitrogen requirements being

13 supplied by liquid feeding, and the 50 percent

14 limit of the nitrogen being added to the

15 container after the crop has been planted.

16 Fertility applications of all types of

17 crops should be addressed better. But at this

18 junction the certifiers don't have for them

19 measurement requirements in place for field grown

20 crop production.

21 We feel that this proposal would put

22 an unfair record-keeping requirement on organic
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1 container growers, and would add considerably to

2 the certification and inspection process.

3 We also have questions, of course. 

4 Will certifiers need to verify all stages in

5 growth, utilizing different containers when those

6 are up stages? Or will the growth, or will the

7 measurement just be in the final container? 

8 Additionally, who determines the nitrogen

9 requirements for the plant growth?

10 Regarding limiting the use of

11 artificial light to a specific number of hours

12 per day, plants do have a circadian rhythm, that

13 like humans can be adjusted and disrupted by

14 external cues, including light they receive.

15 At this time MOSA does not have a

16 recommendation regarding specific numbers of

17 hours per day that various plants should be

18 exposed to light.

19 However, we support continued research

20 in the area, and the development of requirements

21 that are balanced and help the circadian rhythms

22 of plants, and a practical approach for all
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1 growers.

2 Regarding the spectrum and intensity

3 of artificial light limitations, light is a

4 nutrient to plants. And different spectrums of

5 light are responsible for determining when

6 plants' flower grow, when they fruit, and also

7 affects the diurnal processes within the

8 circadian rhythm.

9 And our growers need to have a light

10 setting that's the proper type of light

11 wavelengths for the plant life. And must

12 encourages continued research and the continued

13 development of proposals that uphold organic

14 integrity, and again are practically applicable

15 to a variety of site specific for regional

16 growing requirements.

17 Regarding hydroponics and aquaponics,

18 MOSA appreciates, as always, the work of the

19 Crops Subcommittee. However, MOSA does not

20 support the proposal that hydroponic and

21 aquaponic systems be added as prohibited

22 practices.
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1 We support the growth of the organic

2 industry, and the inclusion of food produced by

3 hydroponic and aquaponic production, and

4 alternative labeling. Thank you.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I have a

6 couple of questions. Francis, and then Terry.

7 MS. ADAMS: Go ahead.

8 MR. THICKE: Thank you for your

9 comments. A question. Does MOSA favor allowing

10 100 percent liquid feeding to be certified

11 organic?

12 MS. ADAMS: In any specific

13 production, --

14 MR. THICKE: Well, across the board. 

15 I mean, in any case at all do they allow, would

16 you be in favor of allowing 100 percent liquid

17 feeding hydroponics?

18 Q It's, I don't think that

19 that's a sustainable approach for all production

20 systems. But, you know, we don't have a super

21 strong opinion. There are a couple of our

22 hydroponics producers who are doing, who are
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1 using all liquid feeding.

2 It doesn't make sense in all

3 productions, though. And so, I think we always

4 need to look at the production within the site

5 specific conditions, and what makes sense.

6 MR. THICKE: Thank you.

7 MS. ADAMS: Yes.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

9 MS. BEHAR: Hi, Kristen. So, my

10 question is, you mentioned that it would be

11 burdensome record keeping to keep track of the

12 nitrogen feeding.

13 But we were looking at, you know, the

14 previous requirement, when sodium nitrates had

15 that 20 percent. And I know that various

16 certifiers worked out systems for that. I know

17 someone who has helped train organic producers. 

18 We worked out systems for helping inspectors

19 figure out how to do that.

20 And also, with the pasture regulation

21 we have a fairly proscriptive requirement on the

22 pastures. So, I'm just wondering, it may look
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1 kind of burdensome now.

2 But do you think that MOSA could come

3 up with some guidelines and some charts that

4 would help people overcome that burden, and make

5 this something that, as we do now with pasture. 

6 It's really become kind of almost second nature

7 on organic inspection.

8 MS. ADAMS: Yes. Yes. Sorry if I

9 wasn't clear. I didn't mean to say whether it's

10 not possible. But the more records that we

11 require be kept, of course that increases the

12 complexity of the certification process, the

13 timing, the expense to producers, you know.

14 And not saying that those tools could

15 not be developed. Definitely we'd want some

16 guidance from the Crop Committee, you know, ways

17 of determining the specific nitrogen requirement

18 for plants. And there are questions that remain

19 to be answered. Does that answer your question,

20 Harriet?

21 MS. BEHAR: Sure.

22 MS. ADAMS: Yes.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I also have

2 a question from two last members. Hard to hear

3 you. If you could speak up.

4 MS. BAIRD: Okay. Is that better?

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. That's better.

6 MS. BAIRD: Okay. Have you seen

7 CCOF's standards proposal?

8 MS. ADAMS: I am not familiar with all

9 of the specifics of it. But am definitely more

10 interested on, after hearing some of the comments

11 today. So, for alternative labeling? Is that

12 what you're --

13 MS. BAIRD: Yes. For the, for the

14 container and their hydro certified piece.

15 MS. ADAMS: Okay. I'll take a look at

16 it. I have become a little bit more familiar

17 with some of their OSP requirements, and am

18 definitely intrigued.

19 MS. BAIRD: Right. Have you developed

20 your own standards that you're certifying your

21 container and hydro, and/or aquaponic producers?

22 MS. ADAMS: Well, the standards that
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1 we use are by USDA National Organic Standards. 

2 But we do have an internal organic system plan

3 that's specific to greenhouse production,

4 including aquaponic and hydroponic production,

5 with robust questions about biodiversity, yes.

6 MS. BAIRD: Would you mind sharing

7 those particular questions with the NOSB Board?

8 MS. ADAMS: I certainly can. I'll

9 have a compliance and policy manager send those

10 directly to you. And actually, Jackie just

11 emailed me and said that our OSP is available

12 online. So, I'll make sure that you have those

13 connections too.

14 MS. BAIRD: Yes. Thank you.

15 MS. ADAMS: Okay, yes. You bet.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Sue. And I

17 have a question from Asa.

18 MS. ADAMS: Okay.

19 MR. BRADMAN: Hi. No. Susan just

20 asked it.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. All right. I

22 think that's all of the questions I have. Thank
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1 you, Kristen. UP next we have Damon Seawright. 

2 Damon, are you on the line?

3 MR. SEAWRIGHT: I am.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. Can you hold on

5 one second? After Damon is Edwin Horton and then

6 Eric Sideman. Damon you can start.

7 MR. SEAWRIGHT: Okay.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Damon, if you could

9 start with your name and affiliation for the

10 record?

11 MR. SEAWRIGHT: Yes. I'm Damon

12 Seawright, President of AmeriCulture,

13 Incorporated.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Great. And go ahead

15 with your comment. If you could speak up a

16 little bit, you're a bit light.

17 MR. SEAWRIGHT: Okay. My apologies. 

18 Yes. Our company has for 25 years worked on the

19 development of an organic aquaponic production

20 method. The method involves the modification of

21 fish diets, so in way unrelated and unnecessary

22 for the nutrition of fish, and exclusively for
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1 the benefit of hydroponically grown plants.

2 Our aquaponic system holds a

3 microbiome consisting of a wide variety of

4 microorganisms, many of which play a crucial role

5 in the breakdown of more complex molecules to

6 those more suitable for plant nutrition.

7 The overall system biome goes beyond

8 that of organic soil, in that it includes higher

9 organisms. Bacterial nitrification not only

10 benefits the health of fish, but converts the

11 less suitable nitrogenous compound, ammonia, the

12 more suitable nitrogenous compound, nitrate.

13 Without the contribution of the fish

14 the plants would experience sub-optimal

15 obligatory inorganic nutrition. And without the

16 contribution of plants the fish would experience

17 sub-optimal nutrient accumulation.

18 The impacts of the diverse soil like

19 microbial community on root hairs was

20 demonstrated in the study supported by a large

21 inorganic NST hydroponic lettuce producer in

22 Australia, and carried out by an Australian
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1 scientists named Dr. Wilson Leonard.

2 The growth and quality of a variety of

3 herbs and leafy greens were compared under

4 inorganic hydroponic and aquaponic growing

5 methods. As an example, the impact of aquaponics

6 micro-biomes on plant performance, six out of

7 seven lettuce varieties grown under aquaponic

8 conditions outperformed those grown under

9 inorganic hydroponic conditions, though the

10 inorganic hydroponics was operated under ideal

11 nutrient conditions.

12 Among the herbs, half of the herbs

13 grown aquaponically exhibited higher growth

14 rates. And nine out of ten herbs grown

15 aquaponically were of higher quality.

16 And though not quantitative, yellow

17 pest monitoring cards located among hydroponic

18 and aquaponic canopies showed a lower level of

19 pest infestation in the same greenhouse among the

20 aquaponically grown plants, presumptively due to

21 the higher health status in and from the

22 aquaponic biome.
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1 I would be glad to provide references

2 at a later time. But several studies have been

3 conducted on the microbial ecology and

4 recirculating aquaculture systems that have

5 demonstrated these systems are indeed extremely

6 complex.

7 All plants, whether terrestrially

8 grown or grown aquaponically or hydroponically,

9 derive nutrients through an aqueous intermediary. 

10 The physical support provided by soil must

11 necessarily be provided in aquaponics and

12 hydroponics.

13 The microbiomes of aquaponic systems

14 are complex, as they are in organic soil. The

15 resulting growth, quality, and health of

16 aquaponically grown plants are similar to those

17 of grown organic crops.

18 The Organic Foods Production Act does

19 not prohibit aquaponics or hydroponics. But they

20 did say, and this discussion would not be taking

21 place today. And the 50 plus organic hydroponic

22 producers would not I think enjoy the benefit of
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1 organic certification.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Can you give me a --.

3 MR. SEAWRIGHT: The physical --

4 MR. CHAPMAN: I think I'm going to

5 have to cut you off there.

6 MR. SEAWRIGHT: Okay.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Any questions from the

8 Board? And I'm not seeing any questions. Thank

9 you for your comments. Now we'll move on to our

10 next commenter. I have Edwin Horton, followed by

11 Eric Sideman, and then Karen Archipley. Edwin,

12 are you on the line? Edwin, I see you on the

13 computer. I think I saw you. Yes. Are you

14 possibly on mute right now?

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Yes. Edwin, it looks

16 like you're using a headset, and maybe on mute. 

17 If you want to try to dial in I can, you can see

18 the number on the screen.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, Edwin, we're

20 going to move on. But you get on, set up the

21 message, and we'll come back to you. Eric

22 Sideman, you're up next. And following Eric is
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1 Karen Archipley, and then Colin Archipley. Eric

2 are you --

3 MR. SIDEMAN: Yes, I man.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Excellent, Eric. If you

5 could start with your name and affiliation.

6 MR. SIDEMAN: I'm Eric Sideman. I

7 work for the Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners

8 Association. I am their crop specialist. And

9 I've worked for them for 30 years.

10 First of all I want to thank you all

11 for being there. Pretty soon you on the NOSB are

12 going to be where I am right now, feeling good

13 about all the time I spent serving on the NOSB,

14 and protecting the integrity of organic

15 agriculture.

16 I was on the NOSB from 1997 to 2002. 

17 And I filled the scientist slot there. I was

18 involved with organic agriculture long before

19 that. I started working for MOFGA in 1986.

20 And when OFPA was first being formed

21 MOFGA was playing a role. And there was

22 discussion. And I have to admit I was very
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1 nervous that the USDA is going to measure whether

2 something was organic or not using a curve, or

3 perhaps testing the soil for contaminants. But

4 they didn't.

5 In the end they did surprisingly good

6 job. I could even say a great job. The first

7 thing that I note is they wrote a practice based

8 standard. They didn't measure whether

9 something's organic by the product itself, but by

10 the practices that are on the farm. It's the

11 practices that make the farm organic.

12 And number two, their standards were

13 very consistent, well, this was considered

14 organic then. And these principles are what

15 organic was founded on.

16 I'm here today to support the Crops

17 Subcommittee recommendation on hydroponic and

18 container growing. I think they did a fabulous

19 job of coming up with a great way of managing

20 this very difficult situation.

21 Organic farming was founded on the

22 practice of replenishing the soil. If you go
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1 back to older history books, and the definition

2 of what organic is, it is based around this idea

3 of manuring the soil. Some people called it

4 unifarming.

5 But for one way of looking at it, or

6 another way of looking at it, what it really is

7 based around is that the original farmers and

8 mothers of organic farming recognized that

9 farming degrades the soil. And that it's the

10 practices of the farmer that has to replenish and

11 build the soil.

12 That was the founding principle. Soil

13 care is what makes the farm organic from the

14 beginning. And OFPA mandates replenishing the

15 soil. And the NOP regulation says the word must

16 replenish the soil.

17 And the Crops Subcommittee

18 recommendation is simply supporting this. One

19 point that's bringing up a lot of comments is

20 this idea that part of their recommendation is

21 the idea of regulating soluble fertilizers. This

22 precedent is actually set in the NOP regulations
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1 of Chilean nitrate.

2 It's not so much that the highly

3 soluble fertilizers are harmful. The reason they

4 do it is because if a farmer becomes dependent on

5 highly soluble fertilizers you can damage the

6 primary force of fertilizer. And they're feeding

7 the crop, and they are not meeting the

8 requirement of OFPA or the rules, the founding

9 principle to replenish the soil.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Eric. Any

11 questions for Eric. I see a hand raised. 

12 Francis. Francis, if you're speaking, you're on

13 mute. Then we'll come back to you Francis,

14 because we're not hearing you. Asa, and then

15 Terry.

16 MR. BRADMAN: Yes. I just have a few

17 questions and comments. Well, not comments. But

18 I just wanted to ask a few things. One, you

19 know, you probably heard that there's, you know,

20 people on, you know, on the exact opposite

21 spectrum of what you're saying should be a

22 limitation for organic.
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1 And I totally get your perspective. 

2 So, you know, I totally get that. I've talked to

3 people now on all sides of the issue. And

4 there's organizations with, you know, an

5 extremely long history in organic, you know,

6 dating back as far as Maine Organic Farmers

7 Association.

8 And I know people who date back that

9 far who are also on both sides of this issue. 

10 And, you know, I tend to look for compromise. 

11 Maybe that's a personality trait.

12 But, do you see any opportunity for

13 compromise here? And it seems like one of the

14 ones that's been suggested is the idea of a

15 label. So, hydroponic or aquaponic would have a

16 label.

17 It could, would probably still be

18 under the NOP. But there could be a

19 distinguishment that would allow soil to stand

20 alone. And perhaps, you know, I know there's

21 talk of a regenerative agriculture label that,

22 you know, people are working on.
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1 And I just want to say that I think

2 the people who are considering diversity in

3 methods, nobody is anti-soil, and really support

4 the kinds of things you're talking about. So

5 anyway, just your perspective on that would be

6 helpful.

7 MR. SIDEMAN: You're opening up a

8 tremendous book. And I know no one wants me to

9 spend the afternoon talking about this. First of

10 all, I think the Crops Subcommittee

11 recommendation is a compromise. What they are

12 doing is writing standards to allow container

13 production.

14 In my mind the original organic label

15 was really about taking care of the farm. 

16 Building the soil in the farm, and protecting the

17 farm from the degradation that happens when you

18 grow crops. And container production wasn't even

19 considered.

20 I think the Crops Subcommittee

21 recommendation is opening the door to allow some

22 container production to take place. The idea of
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1 an extra label that you bring up makes me very

2 nervous.

3 I think the marketplace is crowded

4 already with labels that insinuate they're

5 organic. I think what should be done is, labels

6 should be very careful, and be honest and label

7 what they are.

8 And the certifiers that are certifying

9 hydroponics, I think it's because they're missing

10 the boat. They're looking at organic meaning

11 something that relates to clean and pure. And in

12 some people's mind it does.

13 But historically speaking, and from

14 the real foundation of organic production it

15 relates to managing, management of the soil, not

16 the cleanliness or the lack of contamination in

17 the crop.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

19 MS. BEHAR: Hi, Eric. So, you know,

20 we've heard a lot from people that soil based --

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet, you're echoing.

22 MS. BEHAR: Oh. Is that better?
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Much.

2 MS. BEHAR: Okay. We've heard a lot

3 that soil based, especially field grown

4 agriculture is somewhat problematic, because our

5 planet is not clean, it's --- actually, growing

6 everything indoors, and kind of removing

7 ourselves from the environment is really the

8 future of food production. Because we are not

9 going to have safe food otherwise.

10 And I'm just wondering if you see that

11 somewhat differently. Can organic agriculture

12 offer an alternative to that problem? Or are we

13 just going to kind of lose our whole planet to

14 conduct plant experiments?

15 MR. SIDEMAN: That's a good question. 

16 So, first of all I think we have to point out

17 that there may be production systems that are

18 even better than organic.

19 And I have, and I don't want to get

20 into that argument. But my point would be that

21 those production systems could really get on the

22 bandwagon with their own label. And maybe they
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1 could out beat organic in the marketplace.

2 These small scale organic farmers that

3 began farming in the '80s worked really hard to

4 develop their label, and make it valuable in the

5 marketplace.

6 And I just don't think that somebody

7 who thinks of themselves as better should come in

8 and grab the established label. Let them start

9 their own, and in their marketplace try to out

10 compete organic, not try to usurp their label.

11 Getting to the point of whether

12 organic is better for the land than conventional

13 agriculture? I actually have this discussion a

14 lot. There are very good conventional growers. 

15 And there are very bad organic --

16 MS. BEHAR: No. So --

17 MR. SIDEMAN: So, there's very good

18 conventional growers, and very bad organic

19 growers. And I think it really comes down to

20 measuring the environmental impact of the farm,

21 which has to do with nutrients crossing the

22 boundary of the farm.
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1 The organic standards that the NOP

2 wrote try to manage the nutrients crossing the

3 boundary of the barn, excuse me, the farm, and

4 try to mandate through regulation that organic

5 farmers use recycled nutrients, compost,

6 instruments for cover cropping, and so on.

7 So, yes. Organic farmers can be much

8 better at protecting the farm and the environment

9 surrounding them, as can any farmer.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. We're getting a

11 lot of feedback here from something. Francis,

12 are you able to ask your question now?

13 MR. THICKE: Can you hear me?

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can, Francis. 

15 We're here on the line.

16 MR. THICKE: Is that working now?

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes.

18 MR. THICKE: On and off. Okay. 

19 Thanks, Eric. This, on the USDA hydroponic task

20 force. I got a couple of questions to ask you

21 on, relative to some of your recommendations.

22 And well, first of all, your, the
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1 question has come up that it's difficult to

2 calculate the 20 percent nitrogen requirement,

3 and that it may be hard to determine the nitrogen

4 requirement for crops. If you could hit that.

5 And also, Tuesday the hydroponics

6 group said that if you put enough compost in a

7 container to provide 50 percent of the crops'

8 need, nitrogen needs, then it's not, it won't

9 work. Because it will be toxic, or else you'll

10 run out.

11 Can you address that? Are there

12 people doing container growing with, using very

13 little liquid feeding?

14 MR. SIDEMAN: Yes. Okay. I'll

15 address both of those. So, oh, the first

16 question just slipped my mind again. Oh, the 20

17 percent nitrogen.

18 So, we actually work with that

19 already, because we have growers who do use

20 Chilean nitrate. And that is only supposed to

21 allow 20 percent of the nitrogen requirement of

22 the crop. 
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1 What we do in our certification

2 program that I used to run, but don't anymore is,

3 we use textbooks, which is "Knott's Handbook for

4 Vegetable Crops". And we get from that, or other

5 university published information, what the

6 nitrogen requirement is for a particular crop.

7 And then it's very easily, using

8 arithmetic to determine how much nitrogen is

9 provided by a certain amount of Chilean. And you

10 can come up with the maximum allowed. That does

11 not seem like a difficult situation at all.

12 The second question, I have to

13 disagree with whoever said that it can't be done. 

14 We actually certify some growers who do container

15 production. One of our best growers has a large

16 vegetable, mixed vegetable operation.

17 For their very early season tomato

18 crop they have a large greenhouse. And because

19 they can warm the soil quicker, and maintain all

20 of the environmental parameters in the

21 greenhouse, usually they do their early season

22 tomatoes in five gallon containers.
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1 They're using a mixture of compost,

2 and certain feed meals, and alfalfa meal, and

3 having an analysis of the compost that could make

4 up any of the deficient nutrients.

5 And depending on how your compost is

6 made, and the size of the bucket, and how much

7 production you want from the crop, this is

8 certainly possible to do.

9 MR. THICKE: Thank you.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Eric. I also

11 had two quick questions for you, and then we'll

12 have to move on. So now, I was a little

13 confused, because you started with your comments

14 saying that you were concerned with the FDA

15 measuring organic as a way to determine if

16 something was organic.

17 Then you're supporting it like Crops

18 Subcommittee position that very much has to do

19 with measuring to determine whether something is

20 organic. And, you know, if I guess you could

21 explore that out a little bit more to help me

22 understand that.
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1 MR. SIDEMAN: Sure. So, I was --

2 MR. CHAPMAN: And then --

3 MR. SIDEMAN: -- nervous about --

4 MR. CHAPMAN: -- ask one more on that.

5 I have one more on that. Before you get into

6 that. And then, on that specific 20 percent

7 content you talked a little bit about how you see

8 the connection to the Chilean nitrate.

9 Then Chilean nitrate, it was in the

10 National List where that restriction lived. And

11 would you not see it as being appropriate

12 position to restrict any sort of the materials

13 that we wanted to, to similarly use the National

14 List as the tool to restrict so it's fair across

15 all types of operations.

16 MR. SIDEMAN: Boy, I hate getting two

17 questions at once. So, let me do the second one,

18 because that's the one I remember.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay.

20 MR. SIDEMAN: Chilean nitrate, and

21 some other highly soluble fertilizer are actually

22 discussed in the preamble of the rule. And it
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1 was actually an NOSB recommendation to deal with

2 the highly soluble fertilizers through the

3 National List.

4 The NOSB and those people talking

5 about this subject at that time recognized that

6 if people were using these highly soluble

7 fertilizers they would be ignoring all of the

8 soil building things. And essentially they'd be

9 raising crops by fertilizing the crop, rather

10 than feeding the soil.

11 And so, they wanted to regulate them. 

12 But there were just two of them. And it would be

13 easy to handle them specifically in the list. 

14 What has changed is actually there are a handful

15 of more. And I think a more highly soluble

16 materials that are available.

17 And I think it's reached the point

18 where this should actually be handled through

19 rulemaking, and done in the text of the rule. 

20 Can you give me the first question again, because

21 I forgot it.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: It was about measuring,
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1 and measuring --

2 MR. SIDEMAN: Oh, yes.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Your concern with --

4 MR. SIDEMAN: That's right. So, I poo

5 pooed the idea of measuring organic by sticking a

6 probe in. I'm nervous that the USDA would look

7 for pesticide residue, would try to figure out

8 some way to determine whether a farmer was using

9 chemical fertilizers by sticking a probe into the

10 food.

11 And that actually is not that

12 important. It wasn't where organic farming

13 started. Organic farming started with the

14 practices on the farm to replenish the soil,

15 cover cropping, using crop residue, growing,

16 using compost, growing legumes to get nitrogen. 

17 These are the practices that build the soil, fill

18 the, feed the microorganisms in the soil.

19 And so, the Crops Subcommittee

20 actually came up with basically the same idea,

21 even though it is measuring. What it's measuring

22 is the practice. It's not measuring the soil on
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1 the farm and saying, yes, this is organic soil. 

2 Or measuring an orange and saying, yes, this is

3 an organic orange.

4 Rather, what it's doing is looking at

5 the practices on the farm, and trying to, through

6 regulations, get the farmers to use what is best

7 for the soil.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Eric.

9 MR. SIDEMAN: You're welcome.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: We have to move on now

11 to other commenters. But thank you for fielding

12 our questions.

13 MR. SIDEMAN: Thank you.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: So, up next I have Karen

15 Archipley, followed by Colin Archipley. And

16 after Colin is Roger Tambay. Karen, are you on

17 the line with us?

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Sorry, I muted Karen. 

19 Hold on one second, Karen. I will unmute you. 

20 Or unless you just did yourself.

21 MS. ARCHIPLEY: What's that?

22 (Simultaneous speaking)
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: All right. Thank you.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: And, Karen, if you could

3 start with your name and affiliation?

4 MS. ARCHIPLEY: Sure. My name is

5 Karen Archipley. And I'm the co-founder of

6 Archi's Acres, as well as Archi's Institute for

7 Sustainable Agrobusiness, in partnership with Cal

8 Poly, Pomona.

9 And we teach beginning farmers, many

10 just transitioning out of the military. But also

11 civilians that wish to choose organic

12 agrobusiness as a career.

13 Many of our students have gone on to

14 start their own farms. And a large percentage

15 have chosen containerized hydro-organic

16 production, due to the non affordability of rural

17 land, which is unobtainable by most, due to the

18 limited financial resources.

19 And most would not be farming at all

20 without the use of containerized production

21 systems, due to productivity and limited space,

22 and limited input. Many of whom also reside in
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1 urban areas.

2 Science can show biological processes

3 conducted in containers are equivalent to field

4 production. There has been a lot of

5 misinformation about the use of synthetic and

6 inert inputs.

7 Any grower, in container or in the

8 field, using these inputs described in the

9 misinformation should be denied certification. 

10 And that process is already in place.

11 At Archi's Acres we've never used

12 synthetic inputs, not even the ones that the NOSB

13 has approved. No use of ozone, chlorine, or

14 other chemicals that opponents have attempted to

15 associate with our hydro-organic production

16 systems.

17 It is our hope that you'll see through

18 that misinformation, and instead take the time,

19 which I'd really appreciate. I'm listening, and

20 it seems that you are taking the time to research

21 and understand the facts.

22 CCOF made a recommendation for
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1 labeling. Let the consumer decide. We label

2 ours as hydro-organic. And in our stores we have

3 a large picture of our containerized production. 

4 And people love it. Because they know we're

5 taking care of the land.

6 They know that our taking care of the

7 land is giving it a rest. And that we are truly

8 organic in our practices. We are organic

9 consumers, my husband and I, as well as we're

10 organic farmers. And we wouldn't feed someone

11 something that we wouldn't eat.

12 So, we're in 2017. We should not be

13 afraid of innovation. And we should not be

14 supporting protectionism. So, hydro-organic is

15 not new. It dates back to 600 BC. And the

16 concern is from the growers, really a handful of

17 growers, not from the consumers.

18 And so I say, let's embrace this next

19 generation of organic growers, and not turn them

20 off with inappropriate use of protectionism. And

21 that's what I hear.

22 And I'll tell you, taking care of the
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1 land, we say, give us your worst land. And

2 you're looking at places like Houston, where you

3 don't even know what chemicals are in that land.

4 Yet, we can send a grower over there

5 to actually set up hydro-organic production, and

6 be feeding that community affordably. And I just

7 think that we really need to be mindful. So,

8 thank you. Thank you for your time.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

10 questions for Karen? Ashley.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: Hi, Karen. Thank you

12 for your comments. Just one very, if you know. 

13 How many items are on your material input list

14 for your organic system plan?

15 MS. ARCHIPLEY: You know what, my

16 husband is on next. And he's the one that fills

17 out that plan.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: I will, I'll ask him

19 then. Thank you.

20 MS. ARCHIPLEY: Yes. He will be

21 specific.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet? Harriet, I
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1 think you're on mute. Give me a second.

2 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay.

4 MS. BEHAR: Karen, could the

5 containers that you currently use, could you

6 follow the proposal of the subcommittee to manage

7 your containers that way?

8 MS. ARCHIPLEY: Are you talking about

9 the proposal where you want us to add soil, and

10 things like that?

11 MS. BEHAR: No. The proposal is

12 managing the amount of nitrogen in the container

13 at planting, and then the additional nitrogen

14 added.

15 MS. ARCHIPLEY: You know what, that

16 again I'm going to let my husband answer that. 

17 Because I can't give you a specific. I can tell

18 you that we measure all day. I mean, we are

19 always watching what, how our system is reacting.

20 And I know that we have a lot of

21 biological, like we have a lot of frogs in our

22 system. And those are both in our NFT channels,
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1 as well as you'll see them around the farm. And

2 so, to me it's a good sign. We have a lot of

3 biodiversity. But I'll let Colin answer the

4 question specifically about measurements.

5 MS. BEHAR: Okay. So, yes. It

6 relates back to the proposal that we are going to

7 discuss and vote upon in general.

8 MS. ARCHIPLEY: Right.

9 MS. BEHAR: Okay.

10 MS. ARCHIPLEY: Appreciate that.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Steve.

12 MR. ELA: I just want to follow-up. 

13 Early on you talked, you said science. There's,

14 I take the comment to paraphrase, and I may not

15 get it quite right. Science has demonstrated the

16 equivalent biodiversity of hydroponic and soil

17 systems. Have you submitted those science --

18 MS. ARCHIPLEY: You know what, I know

19 they've been submitted. And several other

20 people, I've heard them also referenced. But I

21 can have that sent to you. No problem.

22 MR. ELA: Yes. It's something to be
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1 sure. I mean, part of it is, I think it's been a

2 broad brush, where we've seen, I mean, there are

3 reports of biological activities. But it's often

4 hard to find that those, you now, equivalent

5 studies. So, I think anything you can submit

6 would be appreciated.

7 MS. ARCHIPLEY: More than happy to. 

8 Not a problem.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Karen. Well,

10 that looks like all the questions I have. And I

11 will move on to Colin. After Colin we're going

12 to jump back up to Edwin, who we believe is now

13 on the line. And then follow on with Roger

14 Tambay. All right. Colin, if you could start

15 with your name and affiliation for the record?

16 MR. ARCHIPLEY: My name's Colin

17 Archipley with, co-founder and grower at Archi's

18 Acres.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Go ahead, Colin.

20 MR. ARCHIPLEY: Okay. Thank you. 

21 Obviously I'm a proponent of containerized module

22 certification. And as opposed to telling you a
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1 lot of stuff you already heard today, there's

2 been a lot of people on saying all the great

3 things on it, I just want to address a few

4 things, particularly before the commenter, a few

5 calls ago said.

6 And that, starting with OFPA. And the

7 commenter is correct in regards to OFPA

8 addressing soil specifically. But any legal

9 advisor would also clearly state that OFPA wasn't

10 meant to be absolute.

11 It clearly states, and I'm

12 paraphrasing here, that if certain application of

13 OFPA don't apply to a particular business or

14 farm, then that doesn't preclude them becoming

15 certified organic.

16 That's why we have soap manufacturers

17 who have nothing to do with soil becoming

18 certified organic. Because OFPA is not absolute.

19 Secondly, the idea that these types of

20 systems popped up out of nowhere in the last few

21 years, and is something that we just have to

22 address recently is hilarious.
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1 And the idea of it is, this has

2 brought, this talk has been done on four separate

3 occasions, never more in depth after 2010, but

4 before the 2010 recommendation it was brought up

5 three separate times.

6 And we've had hydroponic growers

7 certified for 20 plus years. Our farm has been

8 certified organic now for over ten years.

9 There's also a belief that the vast

10 majority of hydroponic and aquaponic growers are

11 large scale, and large corporate agrobusiness

12 type operations. The vast majority of hydro13 organic aquaponic growers are mom and pop small

14 business who are doing this because they believe

15 they're doing the right thing, and doing it

16 because the consumer's demand they do it.

17 They're doing it because they're out

18 of water, natural resources, doing it because of

19 labor, and all the other reasons. So, just keep

20 in mind that we're not talking about a select few

21 tomato growers under attack.

22 And I know there's the thing about the
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1 organic industry. And when people become

2 successful all turn their backs. But keep in

3 mind, if you ban certified organics in these type

4 of systems it's going to be small scale growers

5 who will be impacted the most.

6 There's also been a discussion about

7 energy use. And we looked at a greenhouse with

8 hydroponics and see water pumps. And the

9 assumption is there's a lot of energy being used.

10 But if you're comparing energy use on

11 the acre by acre basis, and you're not actually

12 looking at how much energy it takes to produce a

13 plant. And you could actually look at these

14 productions.

15 And you break down carbon input to

16 produce one unit, a head of lettuce, whatever

17 that is, you're going to realize that hydroponic

18 systems and aquaponic systems are far more energy

19 independent, as well as water independent, and

20 other resources, than the vast majority of

21 standard organic farms.

22 Lastly, there was a good discussion
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1 about the use of mycorrhiza and that, and

2 hydroponic systems. Karen just mentioned that

3 she could send you some of those studies. So,

4 I'll leave it at that.

5 I do have some concepts about these

6 relationships, about this fusion, if you will,

7 between the plant, and so forth. I know that's

8 the alarm.

9 I would just like to point out there

10 has been no study, no study that said the absence

11 of the soil particle will preclude the processes,

12 these organisms from surviving. In fact, the

13 opposite is true.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank --

15 MR. ARCHIPLEY: Thank you.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Colin. I

17 have a question from Ashley.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: Hi, Colin. Can you

19 answer my earlier question? Do you know how many

20 items are on your material input list?

21 MR. ARCHIPLEY: Yes. You're looking

22 for a utility. I don't --- a tool, or all of the
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1 above?

2 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes. Like how many

3 items do you have on your material input list,

4 like in your organic system plan?

5 MR. ARCHIPLEY: Oh, okay. That

6 includes like media and pest control, and our

7 ingredients for our organic tea, and stuff like

8 that. So, I'd probably say we have about two

9 dozen items on there, primarily because we don't

10 remove items once we quit using them.

11 So, but on a day to day basis, and on

12 an annual basis we have seven fertility inputs we

13 use, a few other pest control inputs, and two or

14 three different types of media we may use in a

15 given year.

16 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

18 MS. BEHAR: Yes. So, the Crops

19 Subcommittee has a proposal that we'll be

20 reviewing and voting upon, which ties the

21 definition of hydroponics to the amount of

22 nitrogen in the container, and then additional
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1 nitrogen added.

2 I'm wondering if your containers can

3 currently, or could in the future meet that

4 requirement, and therefore, then be not

5 considered hydroponics?

6 MR. ARCHIPLEY: It's hard for me to

7 answer that question, not having the ability to

8 measure how much solubilized nitrogen, for

9 instance, is in our system at any given time.

10 What I can tell you is we've had

11 studies done, or lab tests done about the

12 availability of solubilizing nitrogen,

13 specifically, in our inputs. And those studies

14 come back --- as you add them to our production

15 system the availability of solubilized nitrogen

16 is extremely low. Meaning there is nitrogen in

17 the product that's insoluble, and it has to be

18 released through biological digestion. And we

19 know that occurs because the output of the

20 production system is greens to greens, right.

21 So, we know nitrogen is being,

22 insoluble nitrogen is being broken down and
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1 converted, and so forth. And the studies show

2 that before those inputs are added to these

3 production systems the levels of insoluble

4 nitrogen is much higher than insoluble, or

5 solubilized nitrogen.

6 Furthermore, I think there needs to be

7 a clarification between liquid nutrients and

8 solubilized nitrogen. They're two different

9 things.

10 You can add a fish emulsion that's

11 high in insoluble nitrogen, that's liquid and

12 very low soluble nitrogen. So its breakdown,

13 it's conversion -- for example, is extremely

14 similar, although it looks like it's in liquid

15 form.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Francis.

17 MR. THICKE: Yes. Could you tell me,

18 a question I've been asking other people, what

19 you use for a medium or substrate? And what

20 percent of the nitrogen would you say comes from

21 a liquid feed, soluble or insoluble?

22 MR. ARCHIPLEY: Well again, the lab
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1 tests usually show that we have extremely low

2 solubilized nitrogen adding it to the production

3 system, and it's extremely low. Less than one

4 percent of what we're applying is solubilized

5 nitrogen.

6 The type of media that we use, we use

7 a generic compost based, peat moss based potting

8 media that you find in any type of nursery crop. 

9 We also use various forms or volcanic rock,

10 vermiculite.

11 In our specific production system we

12 use, we can utilize a wide variety of media. 

13 Some, again, compost, peat moss are required to -

14 - they're off the ground. We just go with what

15 seems to be fine, that works better, and what can

16 be more available and cost effective.

17 MR. THICKE: What I asked though first

18 was, what percent of the nitrogen comes in liquid

19 form, whether it's soluble or mixed in a

20 suspension, for a cup of single liquid

21 application?

22 MR. ARCHIPLEY: Oh, I'm sorry. So,
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1 when we start the plug at zero, we add zero

2 liquid form of nutrients. Then we transplant the

3 plug after about three weeks into the system. 

4 With a majority, if not all, well, the majority

5 of fertility is coming through the irrigation

6 system.

7 MR. THICKE: Okay, thank you.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Colin. I'm

9 not seeing any other questions at this time. And

10 I appreciate it, Colin.

11 MR. ARCHIPLEY: All right. Thank you. 

12 Appreciate it.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next we have Edwin

14 Horton. Edwin, are you on the line now?

15 MR. HORTON: Yes. Can you guys hear

16 me?

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, I can Edwin. And

18 hold on one second. After that one we have Roger

19 Tambay, and then Jaydee Hanson. Edwin, you can

20 start with your name and affiliation.

21 MR. HORTON: Thank you. My name is

22 Edwin Horton, and I'm a ranch manager with Reiter
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1 Brothers. And I would like to address the

2 current Crops Subcommittee proposal on container

3 production.

4 I'm addressing this proposal, because

5 I have many questions and concerns about it. 

6 Honestly, I have more questions than answers on

7 how this would actually affect my business.

8 I manage a 200 acre organic container

9 operation of blackberries and blueberries. This

10 proposal would require me to apply 50 percent of

11 the total year's nitrogen requirement by the

12 first planting day.

13 This is excessive and wasteful, and

14 likely harmful to the establishment of a young

15 plant. This is like the same thing as taking an

16 infant to an all you can eat buffet. It is an

17 excessive amount of food for a baby, who will

18 probably waste it all, and/or get very sick if

19 you force feed it.

20 So, if the plant survives

21 establishment, then I can apply an additional 20

22 percent through the drip system, and top dress
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1 the remaining 30 percent. And this is only in

2 year one. I haven't even begun to harvest the

3 crop yet.

4 And during fruit development it is the

5 majority of the plant's nutrient uptake. So, why

6 would the Board require me to be so wasteful with

7 early nitrogen over applications, if nitrogen can

8 be so harmful to the environment and to human

9 health?

10 As a new young farmer this is very

11 meaningful to me. And I would like to produce

12 high quality organic food, while decreasing the

13 harm to the environment.

14 My fertility program usually consists

15 of solid fertility mixed in at the planting, and

16 perhaps less than ten percent of the plant's

17 needs, because of the small requirement of the

18 young plant.

19 Then I apply liquid fertilizer,

20 organic matter, microbes, and compost through the

21 drip system. We will also apply a top dressing

22 application at critical times for plant nutrient
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1 updates.

2 Top dressing applications in the pots

3 are actually particularly costly, because there's

4 no mechanical operation for this right now. Not

5 to mention, the cost of labor is significantly

6 increasing in California. And our availability

7 of labor is significantly decreasing due to

8 recent legislations.

9 For my business to be viable I need to

10 be able to keep the same plants for at least six

11 years. This proposal does not really take into

12 account how perennial plant growers will be able

13 to manager their nutrition after the first year. 

14 The fertility in these years are most critical to

15 me as a perennial plant grower to grow, build,

16 and establish healthy plants.

17 In particular, this section of the

18 proposal needs to be worked on more. It said the

19 requirements of perennials is recalculated on an

20 annual basis. So, does this mean that I have to

21 top dress 80 percent of the nitrogen? Or repot

22 the plants every year afterwards?
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1 This would greatly increase the cost

2 and complexity of the operation, and likely

3 exclude most perennial operations from this

4 organic requirement. Also, how would these be

5 regulated? Does the burden of all this complex

6 records fall on the grower?

7 I urge the Board to vote no on this

8 proposal, and send it back to the Subcommittee to

9 allow for more focus on these critical components

10 of the proposal. I would like to thank the Board

11 for their service. And I am happy to answer any

12 questions you might have for me.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I have a

14 question from Francis, and then Ashley, maybe

15 Ashley. Francis, go ahead.

16 MR. THICKE: Okay. Thanks for your

17 comments. I think that as a member of the Crops

18 Subcommittee I should answer a question that

19 several hydroponic growers have asked. And that

20 is, why would we require the nitrogen requirement

21 we have in the proposal?

22 And it's because we are looking for a
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1 container system that will work like a soil. 

2 That will either be soil, or a compost based

3 system that will work like a soil, as Eric

4 Sideman said, that will feed the plants.

5 And so, you have a system that can

6 provide nitrogens not as soluble, or various

7 highly labile nitrogen forms, but as a more mix

8 of different nitrogen forms that are present in

9 soils, and can over time provide the nutrition

10 for a plant.

11 So, I can understand that when you

12 have a hydroponic system it's not workable. 

13 Because you can't apply a soil system concept to

14 a hydroponic system. So, we just need to be

15 clear. So, I'm sorry I don't have a question. 

16 But that's what I wanted to say.

17 MR. HORTON: Yes. I have a question

18 to that. What kind of crops would they be

19 considered as? Because as we know for fruiting

20 crops, crops such as berries, they go through

21 different nitrogen requirements throughout

22 various stages of their lives, especially
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1 perennial crops. Could you touch on that?

2 MR. THICKE: Yes. There actually are

3 tables. In this proposal we talked about some of

4 those things, where you can, as Eric Sideman

5 mentioned, there's not a handbook of mutual

6 requirements for plants.

7 So, a lot of these recommendations are

8 maybe like five pounds of nitrogen per ton of

9 yield, something like that. These are guidelines

10 that come from university research and such.

11 So, those guidelines are out there. 

12 And they're pretty straightforward for what is a

13 requirement, nitrogen requirement for plants.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Francis. I

15 have a question from Steve.

16 MR. ELA: I'm curious. So, in the

17 soil system growing the same plants you're

18 growing, that nitrogen level is manipulated, you

19 know. We as growers manipulate them to provide

20 the optimal nitrogen, you know, at the various

21 times for our plants.

22 So, what was, I mean, I heard you say
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1 labor, because in containers you can't use a

2 mechanical applicator. And honestly, I mean, I

3 work in a system that requires tons of labor as

4 well. And I get that stress. But OFPA doesn't

5 put labor in our standards. You know, it looks

6 more at other things.

7 So, what are the barriers to provide,

8 to manipulating the, you know, other than labor,

9 your soil system, or your media system in your

10 containers, you know, via physical nitrogen

11 inputs versus liquid ones?

12 MR. HORTON: Can you restate the

13 question? I'm sorry. I'm a little confused.

14 MR. ELA: Well, I guess in the soil

15 system if we grow the same crops that you're

16 growing, that nitrogen need for the crop, you

17 know, as you said, goes up and down depending on

18 the year and the stage of growth.

19 In that soil system we moderate that

20 nitrogen to meet that crop need. And what I, and

21 I'm not clear of why, what the barrier is to you

22 to do the same thing. I heard labor. But
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1 really, we can't consider labor that, it's not

2 part of the OFPA rules.

3 What are the other barriers for you to

4 manipulate your nitrogen level in your plants

5 with a non liquid material, versus a liquid

6 material that, other than labor?

7 MR. HORTON: Well, we grow in a very

8 similar way as soil growers do. And to my

9 knowledge soil growers are actually not required

10 to apply 50 percent of their nitrogen requirement

11 at planting. Also, with soil you guys have a lot

12 more surface area, and/or buffer zone to deal

13 with. Does that answer your question?

14 MR. ELA: Yes. I mean, like, you've

15 heard from growers that do use a system where

16 they're manipulated without liquid feeding. And

17 we've heard from many growers that say it's

18 impossible to do that. And so, I'm trying to

19 parse out what the differences are, what the

20 barriers are.

21 MR. HORTON: Well, I mean, if I were

22 to grow a soil, personally, I would not need the
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1 50 percent. And that would have definitely

2 provided help throughout the year. 

3 But, you know, we're talking to be

4 quite specific on, you know, soil type,

5 environment, plant type, the plant year, the

6 plant structure. You know, there's very many

7 things that go into it.

8 But I just don't see using 50 percent

9 at planting applicable. And therefore, actually

10 detrimental to the plants then, you know, doing

11 this in a soil would also just accumulate a lot

12 of nitrates, which is just incredibly bad for the

13 environment. And personally I thought we were

14 trying to steer away from that as organic

15 growers.

16 MR. ELA: And we've had some comments

17 from people in the past about using different

18 compost mix, with more, you know, where the

19 nitrogen release is much, much longer term. 

20 Would that be a possibility?

21 MR. HORTON: Compost definitely helps. 

22 Obviously they assist in some microbes. I mean,
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1 no matter which way that you give the plant

2 nitrogen it's got to go through the

3 nitrification. And the plant's got to actually

4 break down those enzymes to make it acceptable

5 for it.

6 So, I will say, yes, the additional

7 compost would definitely help aid in the uptake

8 of nitrogen. I don't know if it's needed, per

9 se. But it's definitely aiding.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Edwin, you dropped off

11 there. Are you still there?

12 MR. HORTON: Can you hear me now?

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. It was at the very

14 end.

15 MR. HORTON: Oh, I'm sorry. No. I

16 would just say that compost does help aid in

17 starting the breakdown of the nitrification

18 process. That plants need to uptake nitrogen.

19 Do I think it's necessary? Not per

20 se. But I think there's natural organic composts

21 that we don't actually apply in soil and in

22 containers year round.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. Thank you

2 for your time. And thank the Board for the

3 questions. We're going to have to move on now. 

4 We're about ten minutes behind.

5 Our next speaker is Roger Tambay,

6 followed by Jaydee Hanson, and then Mark Ellis. 

7 Roger, are you on the line with us?

8 MR. TAMBAY: Yes, I am.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Go ahead, Roger. Start

10 with your name and affiliation.

11 MR. TAMBAY: My name is Roger Tambay. 

12 And thank you for the opportunity to present the

13 mulch film manufacturers' point of view at this

14 forum. I will deal with Conditions 2 and 3 of

15 Memo 15-1, mulch film testing compliance for

16 composting and soil biodegradability.

17 Film Organic creates recipes and sells 

18 soil biodegradable mulch films. It's all we do. 

19 Mulches are creep crop region soil type specific. 

20 And sometimes they are grower specific. Slide.

21 Soil biodegradable mulch film benefits

22 growers. It's a weed control tool. It can free
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1 up labor, and can help reduce costs of produce. 

2 Slide.

3 Film Organic's mission is to replace

4 polyethylene based mulch film with soil

5 biodegradable mulch film. Slide.

6 Question. Is it possible to make a

7 soil biodegradable mulch film with bioplastics

8 that are made only from modern carbon, not the

9 issue of genetic engineering, contain zero

10 percent petroleum bioplastic, meets composting

11 and soil biodegradation standards at a reasonable

12 cost as compared to alternatives? Slide. The

13 answer is yes. This photo was taken 60 days

14 after the mulch film was installed. Slide.

15 There are some conditions for a

16 successful soil biodegradable mulch film. It

17 must meet regulatory requirements. It must

18 perform technically. And it's got to be

19 reasonably priced. Slide.

20 The problem is that according to

21 Conditions 1 and 2 of Memo 15-1, the mulch film

22 must meet ASTM D6400 for compostability, at a
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1 cost of $10,000 dollars. And in requirement 2

2 the film must demonstrate at least nine percent

3 biodegradation, at a cost of $25,000 dollars. 

4 Slide.

5 We use biopolymers, or biopolymer

6 mixtures, and only perform physical blending. If

7 these comply, the mulch film complies. Slide.

8 So what? Based on our experience

9 we'll need about ten recipe thickness

10 combinations, costing potentially hundreds of

11 thousands of dollars for compliance testing. 

12 Here is why. Slide.

13 Grower collaboration is required to

14 get the right performance. Soil type, short

15 crops versus long crops, grower practices,

16 location, Washington State versus Florida,

17 growers' cost expectations. Slide.

18 Each of these recipe thickness

19 combinations require testing at a cost of $35,000

20 dollars each. The costs can add up to a lot of

21 money. Slide.

22 Testing mulch film stifles innovation. 
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1 Slide. Here is one suggestion. All biopolymers

2 or biopolymer mixtures must comply with ASMD

3 D6400. Slide. And ASTM D5988. Slide.

4 You can encourage innovation in our

5 industry by allowing us to use approved

6 biopolymers and biopolymer mixtures. We can

7 focus on creating film the growers will

8 appreciate.

9 That helps us avoid expensive

10 compliance testing, and in the end helps growers

11 reap the benefits associated with soil

12 biodegradable films. And makes organic farming

13 more accessible. Thank you.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Even though

15 we're running behind let's try to keep questions

16 and answers specific. I have two questions. 

17 First one's from Harriet. I'll take questions. 

18 First one's from Harriet.

19 MS. BEHAR: Hi. Is your biopolymer

20 like corn based? Or what is the base of that

21 polymer? Because you said it's not petroleum

22 based.
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1 MR. TAMBAY: Right. It's not

2 petroleum based. It's different sources of

3 sugar, whether they be from corn or other sugar

4 sources.

5 MS. BEHAR: Thank you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Emily.

7 MS. OAKLEY: Oh, that was for the

8 previous speaker. I don't have a question for

9 this speaker. Thank you.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Asa.

11 MR. BRADMAN: I'd like to get more

12 information on this. And again, just verify this

13 is 100 percent, like you said, modern carbon. 

14 And then also, you talked about 90 percent

15 biodegradable, and then a percentage that was

16 microcrystalline. Could you explain that a

17 little bit more, those two sectors, those two

18 components?

19 MR. TAMBAY: There are two ASTM tests

20 that are listed in the memo. The first one is

21 D6400. It requires for composting in a

22 composting environment. And D5988 requires for
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1 biodegradation.

2 And the standard requires 90 percent

3 biodegradation as compared to cellulose. So,

4 those are listed in the memo. And the ASTM

5 methods are the ones that are prescribed therein. 

6 That's why, I was merely restating what those

7 are.

8 MR. BRADMAN: Right. But wouldn't

9 ultimately the cellulose break down as well?

10 MR. TAMBAY: Yes. But I think the

11 issue is not, it is, cellulose is the reference. 

12 And so, the test requires for the material to

13 break down at least 90 percent as well as

14 cellulose.

15 MR. BRADMAN: I think --

16 MR. TAMBAY: Right.

17 MR. BRADMAN: I think I got it. I'm

18 certainly interested in getting more information

19 on it.

20 MR. TAMBAY: Okay.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, Mark. He says that

22 he can provide that to you and Michelle.
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1 MR. TAMBAY: Okay.

2 MR. BRADMAN: And one last question

3 I'd also like to get is the different weights per

4 meter of film. You can, you have different

5 materials or thicknesses. If you could give us,

6 give me like the range for different products,

7 that would be great. So, it would be the, is it

8 grams or milligrams per square meter in mass?

9 MR. TAMBAY: Sure. I'd be happy to. 

10 But it also depends on, there's several factors

11 that will affect the thickness and the recipe. 

12 Because it's not only the thickness. And I've

13 listed some of those, mainly the location, the

14 soil type, how fast we want the film to degrade,

15 or how long do we want it to last. And then

16 there could be some finer differences as well, in

17 terms of how certain growers might cultivate,

18 versus others.

19 MR. BRADMAN: Right.

20 MR. TAMBAY: And all of those make

21 differences in terms of how we end up

22 collaborating with nature to have our films last
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1 just the right amount of time.

2 MR. BRADMAN: All right. Well, again,

3 if I can get --

4 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. I think he

5 broke up a little bit. Asa?

6 MR. BRADMAN: I'm done. Thanks.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: You broke up there. We

8 didn't hear you a little bit.

9 MR. BRADMAN: Which is, I just wanted

10 to verify that I'm really interested in getting

11 the weight on an area basis --

12 MR. TAMBAY: Okay.

13 MR. BRADMAN: -- for different

14 materials. That would be great.

15 MR. TAMBAY: Yes. We'll supply them.

16 MR. BRADMAN: Thanks.

17 MR. TAMBAY: You're welcome. Thank

18 you.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Roger. Up

20 next I have Jaydee Hanson, followed by Mark Ellis

21 and Aviva Glaser. Jaydee, are you on the line

22 with us?
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1 MR. HANSON: I am on line. Can you

2 hear me?

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. You can

4 start with your name and affiliation.

5 MR. HANSON: I'm Jaydee Hanson, Senior

6 Policy Analyst for Emerging Technology at the

7 Center for Food Safety. And I'm in their

8 Washington, DC office. And you heard my

9 colleague and one of our consulting scientists,

10 Marti Crouch earlier.

11 I'm speaking on three techniques. 

12 I'll just go right into them. Intergenesis is a

13 technique that involves the genetic engineering

14 of a recipient plant with genes from crossable

15 species.

16 It is a plant that is genetically

17 engineered with various plant DNA, all of which

18 come from varieties of the plant, or sexually

19 compatible relatives, that are combined into the

20 genetic material, and inserted into the genome.

21 Intergenesis best results in a novel

22 gene, and carries risks associated with other
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1 genetic engineering methods, and should be an

2 excluded method itself. We already have some

3 fruits and potatoes coming to the market using

4 this method.

5 Agro infiltration is a method of

6 introducing nucleic acids into plant tissues

7 using agro bacterium vectors in order to produce

8 specific foreign proteins within the plants, such

9 as pharmaceuticals.

10 In agro infiltration in vitro nucleic

11 acids are introduced to plant leaves to be

12 infiltrated into them. Thus, agro infiltration

13 is clearly an in vitro nucleic acid technique and

14 falls under the definition of modern

15 biotechnology, and should be excluded.

16 Transposons are naturally occurring

17 mobile genetic elements. And they should be

18 excluded when they're used to genetically

19 engineer plants and animals.

20 And they are discrete bits of DNA,

21 with the ability to change their condition within

22 the genome, using a cut and paste mechanism
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1 called transposition.

2 And thus, can be engineered as

3 vectors, removing other pieces of DNA into the

4 recipient organisms, and for causing insertional

5 mutations. Using transposons vector or mutagens

6 clearly means they are excluded methods.

7 As previously commented by CFS,

8 transposons by themselves are not breeding or a

9 biotechnology method, though they may be used as

10 a genetic engineering techniques. As such, we

11 recommend that NOSB amend the term in the

12 terminology chart to use of transposons in

13 genetic engineering. Okay. Well, I'll stop

14 there. Thank you.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, are there any --

16 I have a question from Harriet. And again, we're

17 behind schedule. So, I have a reminder to keep

18 it brief.

19 MR. HANSON: Sure.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

21 MS. BEHAR: That was for the previous. 

22 But I want to say thank you to Jaydee for all
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1 your help.

2 MR. HANSON: Well, thanks. And thank

3 you for your input in these discussions and

4 others. I'm pretty sure there's a lot. Thank

5 you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. All right. 

7 Up next we have Mark Ellis, followed by Aviva

8 Glaser, and then Dan Martens after that. Mark

9 are you with us?

10 MR. ELLIS: Yes. Can you hear me?

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we can. And, Mark,

12 if you could start with your name and

13 affiliation, and then go into your comment.

14 MR. ELLIS: Sure. Thanks. Good

15 afternoon. I'm Mark Ellis, and I serve as

16 Executive Director of the International Diatomite

17 Producers Association, or IDPA. IDPA is an

18 industrial trade association that represents

19 producers of diatomaceous earth products.

20 Diatomaceous earth is a sedimentary,

21 non-metallic mineral composed of the skeletal

22 remains of plant based plankton called diatoms.
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1 Diatomaceous earth is predominantly amorphous

2 silica.

3 I speak to you today in support of the

4 recommendation of the NOSB Handling Subcommittee

5 to retain diatomaceous earth on a national list

6 on allowed and prohibited substances.

7 Diatomaceous earth has been considered

8 generally recognized as safe since 1963 by the

9 U.S. Food and Drug Administration for use as a

10 filter aid.

11 In 1979 the Food and Drug

12 Administration Select Committee on grass

13 substances concluded that there was no evidence

14 that demonstrated or suggested diatomaceous earth

15 presented a hazard to the public when used as a

16 filter aid.

17 In 1983 the Food and Drug

18 Administration again concluded that diatomaceous

19 earth is generally recognized as safe for use as

20 a filter aid. In 2002 the Food and Drug

21 Administration again concluded that diatomaceous

22 earth remains generally recognized as safe.
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1 The NOSB reviewed diatomaceous earth

2 in 2005, 2010, and 2015, and recommended re3 listing each time.

4 The diatomaceous earth produced by the

5 three major diatomaceous earth producers in the

6 United States complies with U.S. Pharmacopeia

7 Food Chemicals Codes purity requirements for

8 diatomaceous earth. This monograph includes

9 heavy metals requirements for both lead and

10 arsenic.

11 Diatomaceous earth continues to be

12 used as a filter media in the majority of

13 brewery, winery, and juice companies for both

14 organic and non organic products. It also is

15 used by corn and oil seed milling companies for

16 the production of sweeteners and oils. And it is

17 used as the filter aid of choice by many other

18 food and pharmaceutical industries.

19 Diatomaceous earth is used to improve

20 the efficiency of solid/liquid separation

21 processes, e.g. the removal of yeast from beer or

22 wine. Diatomaceous earth does not exist within
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1 the final organic product, and is classified as a

2 processing aid, and not as an ingredient.

3 In closing, the International

4 Diatomite Producers Association supports the NOSB

5 Subcommittee on Handling's recommendation to

6 retain diatomaceous earth on the National Organic

7 Program List of Allowable Substances, and urges

8 the National Organic Standards Board to adopt its

9 Subcommittee's recommendation. Thank you for

10 your consideration of these comments.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

12 questions? Seeing none, up next is Aviva Glaser,

13 followed by Dan Martens, then Julene Koslowski. 

14 Aviva Glaser, I didn't see you. We have not been

15 able to find you. Aviva going once, then twice. 

16 Seeing none, we're going to move on to Dan

17 Martens. Dan, are you on the line?

18 MS. ARSENAULT: I see Dan on the line. 

19 And this is his PowerPoint presentation. So,

20 Dan, if you're talking we can't hear you.

21 PARTICIPANT: Good afternoon. 

22 MS. ARSENAULT: Dan, is that you? No.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Dan, are you there? I

2 need someone to unmute him. Dan, one more time. 

3 Are you there? Dan, we're not hearing you if you

4 are there.

5 PARTICIPANT: I'm on a headset, he

6 said.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: He's on a headset. 

8 All right. So, we can't hear you. So, are you

9 able to dial in on the phone? Do you want to

10 chat that into me? I'll give you the number.

11 PARTICIPANT: He will call.

12 MS. ARSENAULT: Okay, great. You have

13 the number? He must.

14 PARTICIPANT: I can send that.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. While we

16 wait for Dan to call in, I want to check, is

17 Julene Koslowski here? We are moving back to the

18 list.

19 Is Jennifer Davis, or Yemi Amu, or

20 David Talbert, or Miraj Patel here? Dan Martens

21 is the one last commenter. Hold on while we wait

22 for Dan to call in.
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1 PARTICIPANT: Tom, tell us a joke, or

2 sing us a tune while we wait.

3 MR. MARTENS: Hello.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Dan?

5 MR. MARTENS: Yes. I apologize for

6 the technical glitch. I thought I could just

7 come in on headset. And I'm not the last guy, so

8 I really feel embarrassed. Sorry.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, Dan. If you

10 could start with your name and affiliation for

11 the record?

12 MR. MARTENS: Yes. Dan Martens. I'm

13 with Novamont North America. And thank you very

14 much. And thank you for accommodating my slides. 

15 Next slide, please.

16 Compostable mulch films provide

17 holistic benefits to farmers, including carbon

18 reduction, farming practice efficiency, and the

19 elimination of polyethylene plastics disposal.

20 The film in my comment have 15 years

21 of EU in field experience. And all certified

22 compostable to ASTM6400 standards, with
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1 additional soil biodegration certification.

2 These are not experimental mulch

3 films. They have been commercially available in

4 the U.S. for ten years. And in 15 years of

5 continual annual application there has been no

6 instances of soil contamination from any

7 component of the film, or the film itself.

8 Here are some cases where certified

9 compostable mulch films have become new tools for

10 farmers, increasing efficiency, while decreasing

11 environmental impact. Next slide, please.

12 Tomatoes. Plastic mulch films cannot

13 be used with machine harvesting, since plastic

14 films jam machinery. However, compostable films

15 exit through the back of the machinery like green

16 plant matter.

17 Using the mulch film increases harvest

18 yields by 25 percent. And the mulch films are a

19 new tool that improves both tomatoes and

20 harvesting. Next slide, please. Next slide,

21 please. Next slide, please.

22 For asparagus compostable mulch film
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1 has the same weight control as plastic film, but

2 it's much thinner. Therefore, the plant can

3 break through the film. And the compostable film

4 requires less material and energy to produce. 

5 Thus, a lower carbon footprint versus plastic. 

6 Next slide, please. Next slide, please. Next

7 slide, please.

8 For rice. When using compostable

9 mulch film less water is required. This practice

10 is only two years old. And the machine pictured

11 has only, was only invented last year. Again,

12 better crops and decreased total environmental

13 impact. Next slide, please. Next slide, please. 

14 Next slide, please.

15 I ask NOSB to vote no on the removal

16 of compostable mulch films from its National

17 List. Please consider compostable mulch films to

18 be new tools to help small farmers. Farmers who

19 have tried compostable films want them to be

20 okayed for organic.

21 These products reduce labor, cut

22 costs, produce stronger crops, and eliminate the
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1 burning or landfilling of disposable plastic. 

2 Please give these products the innovative

3 excitement that they have earned. Do not look at

4 them as a sleight of hand to put oil in the soil. 

5 That issue's not happening.

6 And you may wonder how this product

7 differs from petrochemical fertilizers that

8 attach to plant roots. But for compostable mulch

9 films please visualize this. That the plants'

10 roots are not absorbing the film.

11 The film is transformed by soil,

12 microorganisms. They eat it, they poop it, then

13 they die. Organic matter, carbon dioxide to

14 water. It's what is created, and the plants like

15 it. Thank you.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Dan. Any

17 questions from the Board? Harriet, then Asa.

18 MS. BEHAR: So, there are petroleum

19 based fertilizers that plants also like. How is

20 the breakdown of your product different from

21 those?

22 MR. MARTENS: Well, I can't speak too
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1 much for exactly that. However, I know that

2 basically, I think what I hear a lot is our

3 material being called petroleum based materials,

4 and being absorbed by the plants, or being

5 contamination of the soil. And that's not

6 happening.

7 So, I'll defer to how they're the

8 same. But they're, certainly are not that. Does

9 that make sense?

10 MS. BEHAR: Okay.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa.

12 MR. BRADMAN: I have a couple of

13 questions. And Harriet --

14 MR. MARTENS: Sure.

15 MR. BRADMAN: -- I'm just going to get

16 clarification on what you mean by petroleum based

17 fertilizers. Because I think we're talking there

18 about fossil fuel based fertilizers that are

19 sources of, you know, nitrogen, and other mineral

20 nutrients, versus, I think what you're saying

21 here with the compostable film is that it's a

22 source of carbon. And that it's a, it's not a
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1 fertilizer.

2 MR. MARTENS: Correct.

3 MR. BRADMAN: And I just want to

4 clarify that. And also, let us know what

5 proportion of the film is, you know, old carbon

6 versus new carbon? In other words, how much is

7 fossil fuel based?

8 And just to clarify, it seems like

9 what you're doing is manufacturing the polymer so

10 it's essentially munchable by bugs. Right?

11 MR. MARTENS: Yes.

12 MR. BRADMAN: Mainly bacteria. And is

13 there any proportion that's not munchable by

14 bugs? And then finally, if you could also send

15 me, I'm interested in this question of what is

16 the mass of the mulch, you know, on a, say on a

17 square meter basis, milligrams or grams per

18 square meter. Just to understand the amount of

19 material that's being incorporated into the soil.

20 MR. MARTENS: Yes. Pretty much on the

21 first question, I think you're asking what's the

22 renewable content. I can speak for my company. 
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1 But just in general, it can vary.

2 All of the, for example, probably

3 state of the art is probably about 40 percent

4 from plant based material. And that's due to

5 green chemicals, chemicals that probably didn't

6 exist in green, from plant based even five years

7 ago. And I can go into some of those if you'd

8 like.

9 But there's been a, pretty much a

10 nice, I guess new industry, the green chemistry,

11 and new advancements. Some of the chemicals that

12 were compostable mulch films in the past that

13 could not be made from plant based materials now

14 can be.

15 So, I think pretty much, I'm going to

16 defer to, like France, where they're requiring

17 home compostable material for replacing all the

18 plastic bags. Plus renewable content. There

19 they started with 20 percent renewable content. 

20 Then this last year it was 30, and now 40.

21 So, I would say based on that French

22 law 40 percent is kind of the current. And I
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1 would say probably what's doable today by major

2 manufacturers is probably about 50 percent.

3 As far as all the carbon, all the

4 carbon is carbon that should be, that is

5 ingestible, and that should be converted. Did I

6 answer your question?

7 MR. BRADMAN: Yes. Thank you.

8 MR. MARTENS: And for follow-ups, I'm

9 happy to supply follow-ups. I'm sorry this is a

10 very quick -- All these are case studies on their

11 own. But in this timeframe I wanted to just give

12 you, make you aware of them.

13 MR. BRADMAN: Right. And there was

14 just a speaker who spoke just before you that

15 claimed to have 100 percent biological-based

16 film. And are you aware of any companies, other

17 companies that are making similar products?

18 MR. MARTENS: I'm actually familiar

19 with those fellows. We have not, in the current

20 technology we're not aware of that. I mean, I do

21 agree with 100 percent that all mulch films

22 finished product must be tested.
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1 I think this was a safe thing that

2 must be done, otherwise you open, you can open

3 the door to a lot of misuse. We're a major

4 innovator/leader in this industry. We haven't

5 heard of this.

6 You can make mulch films 100 percent. 

7 But you've also got to remember they have to

8 perform in the field, they have to meet testing. 

9 And you can do this with PLAs, you can do it with

10 a lot of polyesters. But there's a lot of other

11 requirements that make them usable and

12 beneficial.

13 So, I don't know. And I've heard of

14 this product for a couple of years. I just have

15 never seen it. I've never actually seen it. So,

16 I can't comment, other than I'm skeptical until

17 the science is done on it.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. We're going to

19 have to stop we're five minutes over. Thank you

20 very much for your comment.

21 MR. MARTENS: Okay.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: All members of the
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1 public, thank you so much for your time,

2 thoughtful comments, and answering our questions. 

3 I would like to thank Members of the Board for

4 your careful attention and engagement during this

5 time, and the National Organic Program for

6 helping to support this activity, and providing

7 all the infrastructure to make it happen

8 seamlessly.

9 So, thank you everybody. For folks

10 who will be in Florida for our meeting, I look

11 forward to seeing you all on Tuesday of next

12 week. And have a great weekend. Thank you.

13 MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you, everyone. 

14 Thank you, Tom. Great job. Thanks, everybody.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

16 went off the record at 4:07 p.m.)

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

A-Dae 1:19 10:6,7,11

A&M 50:18

ability 47:10 144:7

167:21

able 9:19 44:22 46:4

52:10 61:8 86:4 87:2

89:1 91:1,12 124:12

150:10,12 172:15

173:9

above-entitled 183:15

absence 142:10

absolute 139:10,18

Absolutely 21:13 94:9

absorb 47:10

absorbed 178:4

absorbing 177:10

accept 7:21

acceptable 14:18 157:4

acceptance 32:6

accepted 18:13 35:4

accessible 161:13

accommodating

174:14

accompanied 65:17

account 150:12

accounts 31:8

accumulate 156:11

accumulated 91:14

accumulation 111:17

accurate 13:19,20

acid 44:13 167:13

acids 29:1 44:16 167:6

167:11

acre 141:11,11 148:8

acreage 97:21

acres 18:7 67:3,5 132:6

133:11 138:18

act 4:21 91:22 92:2

95:20 97:19 113:18

activation 18:3

activities 4:14 138:3

activity 38:19 183:6

actual 61:21 62:6

Ad 63:14

Adams 70:18 74:9 85:1

85:17,19,20 95:4

101:8,9,16,16 105:7

105:12 106:7 107:8

107:22 108:8,15,22

109:8,15,18

adapted 88:9

add 103:1 136:9 144:14

145:10 147:1 160:20

added 16:20 102:14

104:21 136:14 144:1

145:2

adding 21:1 55:18

146:2

addition 26:19 28:14

54:7

additional 26:14 31:2

51:8 136:13 143:22

148:21 157:6 175:1

Additionally 17:11 19:6

103:8

address 15:11 37:13

43:2,11,15 45:13 75:1

86:21 87:2 88:9

125:11,15 139:3,22

148:1

addressed 15:9 102:17

addresses 15:5 64:2

72:21

addressing 38:20 139:8

148:4

adhere 12:13

Adjourn 3:22

adjusted 103:13

Administration 170:9

170:12,18,21

administrator 94:1

admit 115:22

adopt 172:8

adopted 65:2,10 87:9

advancements 180:11

advantage 84:16

advantages 32:21 33:9

adverse 47:15

advisable 67:13

advisor 90:1 139:9

Advisory 2:2 4:21

advocates 19:12

aeroponic 32:1 33:21

48:14

aeroponics 46:16 47:3

affect 59:9 91:2 148:7

164:11

affiliation 7:5 12:5

16:11 26:4 30:3 42:15

46:11 50:12 54:1 63:3

67:1 70:21 74:14

89:17 95:5 101:15

110:9 115:5 132:3

138:15 147:20 158:10

166:4 169:13 174:10

affiliations 7:7 36:17

afford 19:11

affordability 132:16

affordable 19:11

affordably 135:6

aforementioned 14:20

afraid 19:13 134:13

afternoon 4:4 27:19

67:2 120:9 169:15

172:21

ago 94:20 139:5 180:7

agree 37:17 82:18,18

92:14 181:21

agricultural 39:17

agriculture 1:1 12:22

19:12 20:10 39:2

50:20 52:21 64:4,12

72:2 98:4 115:15,18

119:21 122:4,11

123:13

agro 167:5,7,10,12

agrobusiness 132:7,12

140:11

agroinfiltration 26:20

27:10 63:20 64:19,21

ahead 6:22 37:4 42:20

62:15,16 69:11 92:13

99:21 105:7 110:14

138:19 151:15 158:9

aid 157:7,16 170:10,16

170:20 171:17 172:2

aiding 157:9

Akron 36:19

alarm 142:8

alfalfa 127:2

algae 71:9 72:19 96:2

align 96:17

alignment 14:6

aligns 99:7

alive 24:2

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119:19 120:12,21

125:21 151:9

Allowable 172:7

allowed 22:9 29:2 97:9

99:2 126:10 170:6

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161:5

allows 38:3

Alphagen 88:2

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92:18,22 105:4

108:11 122:12

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174:13

American 47:13

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136:12 143:21 148:17

165:1 179:18

amp 87:11

ample 27:3

Amu 36:7 42:10 46:1

173:19

anaerobic 85:21 86:8

86:10,14

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155:12

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43:16 48:10 65:7,18

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81:19 107:19 136:16

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159:13 181:6

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107:19

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148:6 161:16

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110:17

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102:16 149:7 150:2

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149:19,21 152:13

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146:4

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84:21 98:2 133:19

137:10 147:10,12

161:8

appreciated 138:6

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103:22 105:19
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113:11,19

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138:17

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51:12 103:20 155:12

165:11

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5:18,21 6:2,5 8:8,11

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9:14,16,18,22 10:3,6

10:9,12,15,18,21 11:2

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37:3 50:1 56:18 74:15

78:17,21 85:2,5,8

89:1 94:19 95:1

114:15 131:18 132:1

172:18,22 173:7,12

183:13

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56:18,20 109:17

118:14 162:10 165:5

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29:20 36:6 42:9,11,13

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60:20 98:1 109:20

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91:15 92:15

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133:15

associated 48:19 49:2

161:11 166:22

Associates 95:8

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101:17 115:8 119:7

169:17,18 172:4

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ASTM 159:22 161:3

162:19 163:4

ASTM6400 174:22

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11:15 15:22 29:13

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99:17 144:12,15

150:6

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52:18 54:20 55:1

68:14 96:7 99:13

109:11 129:16 146:16

175:3

avian 44:7

Aviva 165:21 169:7

172:12,14,15

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avoiding 68:1

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181:20

B

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47:14 62:17 63:6

68:19 84:3 86:12

114:21 117:1 118:13

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179:12

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156:12

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Baird 1:15 8:9,10 83:2,4

108:4,6,13,19 109:6

109:14

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179:7 180:4,6,13,21

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131:6 166:21

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91:19 97:20 100:19

102:17 108:4,5

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94:20 95:3,3,3,4,7

98:5,6,7,11 99:19,22

101:2

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158:16

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161:12 162:15

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160:3 163:1,3

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109:5 137:3,16

biological 14:14 17:22

133:2 136:21 138:3

144:18

biological-based

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biology 22:16 24:2

63:11

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75:6 78:5 84:11,13

108:16 110:16,16

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29:12 31:22 33:11

34:14 35:4 37:5 39:9

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151:7,10 158:2 172:8

177:17 183:3

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Buie 1:14 11:1,1,3,5

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150:15

building 120:16 129:8

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107:1

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43:16,19 44:7

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85:14,14,20 88:19

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173:11,16,22

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134:5,6,22

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133:22

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cell 28:16,19,20 29:2,9

41:1

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166:7

CEO 46:14 50:14

certain 25:15 41:11

49:6 67:12 126:9

127:2 139:12 164:17

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96:14

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139:18 140:7,8 141:3

174:21 175:8

certifier 37:17 76:3

79:16,20 80:6

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106:16 121:8

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chairing 5:9

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79:11

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35:18 99:7 167:21

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168:12

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133:14 135:3 171:7

180:5,5,11

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126:9 128:8,9,20

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Chris 11:13 12:3 16:3,3

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104:8

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27:18,22 28:6,12 29:8

63:20 64:19,20

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51:15,16,17,20,21

52:1,2,3,5,16,22

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Clarence 16:9 25:22

29:19,20 30:4 36:3

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65:12 145:7 178:16

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179:8

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122:5

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107:9 152:15 154:21

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168:6

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32:15 69:19

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138:17

coco 70:1

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160:19

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25:20 29:18 49:21

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139:4,7 173:21

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131:11

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6:15,16 8:6 11:11

18:18,20 26:6,9,10

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118:17,17 127:13

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175:3

Committee 2:2 4:21

33:2,13 107:16

170:12

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61:2 72:6 92:21 102:8

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69:19,20 151:9

162:18

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87:14 172:10

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134:9,17

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59:22

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68:21 101:19,21

102:7,15 103:1,7

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126:22 133:3 136:5,7

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83:16

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104:12,12

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95:16

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176:1

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29:5 39:4 40:15 81:20

123:12,14,18

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145:13

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162:3 171:15

Cornell 71:3,5

Cornell's 39:2

corporate 140:11

correct 139:7 179:2

correctly 33:22

cost 48:19 49:9 51:9,18

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151:1 159:12 160:1,3

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costing 160:10

costly 150:3

costs 77:12 159:1

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course 69:15 103:3

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48:4 67:17,22 77:4

created 177:14

creates 158:17

creating 65:12,21 72:12

77:5 100:8 161:7

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Crisp 12:9,9 16:13 17:6

criteria 27:12 65:9

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72:22 73:1 79:13 82:9

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115:8 118:7 121:17

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113:17 116:16 117:17

120:10,18,20 125:4

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173:3,16,20,22 174:4

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169:20 170:1,5,7,14

170:18,21 171:1,4,5,8

171:11,19,22 172:6

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Division 2:2,4,5,6,7 4:5

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71:14,17 92:20 93:4

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125:12 131:4 140:14

140:15,15,17,18

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Drug 170:9,11,17,20

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171:11,19,22 172:6

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114:10,11,12,15,19

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90:13 99:5,11 100:12

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63:11,16,19,22 64:14

65:3,10,14,15,20 66:8

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75:11 95:9 99:15

116:10,11 117:13

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123:22 124:3,8

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68:22 69:3,6 86:8,13

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54:5 56:3,3 86:12

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118:3,5 129:2,7 130:9

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102:6,19 122:3 133:3

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159:3,4,5,7,14,16,21

160:2,7,22 161:7

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175:7,7,17,22 176:1,3

176:3,9 177:10,11

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164:22 174:16 175:3

175:9,12,14,14,18

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40:8 46:4 75:11 79:21

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64:20 84:3 93:3

115:10,20 116:6

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148:12 150:13 161:17

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18:10 20:20 21:5,8,16

21:17,17,18 22:2,4

24:17 25:2,7,14 43:15

44:7 72:6,7 110:21,22

111:10,13,16 145:10

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138:13

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61:15,19 87:3 137:12

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29:19 42:10 46:8

66:16 70:17 74:8 85:1

114:10 131:15 158:6

165:20 169:7 172:13

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22:2 25:7 26:7,10,18

35:15 37:14 41:15

49:2 51:3 57:16 63:7

88:7 95:11 105:2

122:8,9 130:10

148:17 149:12 166:7

170:9,11,17,20 171:7

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footnotes 26:12

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124:20 148:19

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68:4,10,11,12 86:18

100:17 145:15 146:19

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72:5 74:17 78:18 79:1

85:2 92:4 100:13

123:11 124:10 128:16

163:18 165:10

give 7:5 21:4 114:2

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173:10 177:2 181:11

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Glaser 165:21 169:8

172:12,14

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glyphosate 75:18,19

76:7,19 79:6,11,14

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39:11 101:19 102:2,6

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123:18,19 125:19

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38:17 40:2 45:4,5,9,9

45:10 49:7 51:5 56:9

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77:6 101:21 104:16

112:4 116:18 122:5

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grown 17:6,8,19,20

21:20 38:11,22 39:11

39:12,13 51:1 52:11

52:16 67:4 102:19

111:1 112:7,8,13,14

112:20 113:8,8,16,17

122:3

growth 48:20 68:1

103:5,6,9 105:1 112:2

112:13 113:15 154:18

guess 20:21 21:3 60:5

76:1 79:18 127:20

154:14 180:10

guidance 26:16 30:13

31:2 32:6 33:15 65:14

72:18 88:8 102:9

107:16

guideline 84:7

guidelines 84:12 86:20

87:7 107:3 153:9,11

gypsum 70:1

H

H2O 46:14 49:10,13

habitats 73:9

Hadlock 71:1

hairs 111:19

half 47:1 63:12 112:12

half-life 79:12 81:9

hand 40:7 56:19,21

118:11 177:4

hand-set 6:14

handbook 126:3 153:5

handful 81:1 129:14

134:16

handle 129:13

handled 129:18

handler 75:3

handlers 96:21 97:14

Handling 170:4

Handling's 172:5

Hanson 27:18 147:19

158:6 165:20 166:1,5

166:5 168:19 169:2

happen 44:10 66:5

68:17 183:7

happened 72:10 84:17

happening 62:7 91:6

177:5 178:6

happens 83:11 120:17

happy 69:7 138:7

151:11 164:9 181:9

hard 108:2 123:3 125:3

138:4 144:6

harder 96:14

harm 149:13

harmful 118:3 148:14

149:8

Harriet 1:15 8:11 99:20

99:20,21 106:8

107:20 121:18,21

135:22,22 143:17

161:17,18 168:16,20

177:17 178:13

harvest 73:5 78:9 149:2

175:17

harvested 78:13

harvester 72:11

harvesting 71:10,15

73:1,22 74:1 175:13

175:20

hate 128:16

hazard 170:15

hazardous 35:7

head 141:16

headset 9:7 85:10

114:16 173:5,7 174:7

health 41:14 43:7 47:7

71:21 73:6 111:10

112:21 113:15 149:9

healthy 19:9 57:17

150:16

hear 5:16 7:14 8:18,22

11:22 16:6 29:22

33:22 34:9,17 42:12

49:22 50:7 53:15

62:19 66:20 74:11

80:19 85:3,17,18

94:22 95:2 101:9

108:2 124:13 134:21

147:15 157:12 165:8

166:2 169:10 172:20

173:8 178:2

heard 33:20 35:16 84:5

118:19 121:20 122:2

137:20 139:1 153:22

154:22 155:15,17

166:8 182:5,13

hearing 4:22 7:18 54:9

84:11 108:10 118:14

173:3

hearsay 62:9

heart 51:2

heat 86:18

heavy 39:10 171:9

held 56:4

Hello 8:11 34:15 99:22

174:3

help 4:10 5:4 12:19

52:21 58:18 80:1

86:15 97:8 103:21

107:4 127:21 156:2

157:7,16 159:1 169:1

176:18

helped 106:17

helpful 120:6

helping 48:15 59:11

106:18 183:6

helps 95:11 97:20

156:21 161:9,10

Hemker 25:22 29:19

36:6,9,18,19 37:5

40:7,19 41:10 42:1,7

herbicide 75:20 76:9

herbicides 35:6

herbs 112:3,12,12,14

Hey 8:20 10:6

hi 8:12 9:22 10:15,18

34:18 39:22 56:22

78:21 83:4 89:8,18

94:5 106:9 109:19

121:19 135:11 142:18

161:19

high 44:15,16 52:12

81:2 145:11 149:12

higher 39:4 48:18 51:17

74:2 111:8 112:13,15

112:21 145:4

highlight 18:15

highly 13:12 88:8 118:2

118:5 128:21 129:2,6

129:15 152:7

hilarious 139:22

historically 121:13

history 32:7 117:1

119:5

hit 85:9 125:4

Hoc 63:14

hold 6:14 12:2 16:8

25:14 37:6 46:7 50:8

53:17 56:8 62:20 93:9

95:3 99:21 101:10

110:4 131:19 147:18

173:21

holds 111:2

holistic 174:17

home 180:17

honest 121:6

honestly 100:5 148:6

154:2

honored 63:13

hope 22:4 88:10 133:17

Horton 101:13 110:5

114:10 147:14,15,21

147:22 152:17 154:12

155:7,21 156:21

157:12,15

hour 68:9 86:3

hours 68:5 103:11,17

Houston 135:2

human 41:13 73:8

149:8

humane 44:6

humans 103:13

hundreds 160:10

husband 134:9 135:16

136:16

hydro 20:5 108:14,21

hydro- 140:12
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hydro-organic 132:15

133:15 134:2,14

135:5

hydroponic 13:12

14:17,19 21:7,10

23:11,19 30:7,12 31:2

32:2,6,12,21 33:3,21

34:20,22 35:20 37:19

38:10,16,22 39:12

40:13 41:7 48:13

54:11 101:20 102:4

104:20 105:3 109:4

111:21 112:4,9,17

113:21 116:17 119:15

124:19 137:16 140:6

140:10 141:17 142:2

151:19 152:12,14

hydroponic/aquaponic

14:22

hydroponically 111:1

113:8

hydroponics 13:7,10

13:20 14:1,2 15:17

19:22 20:2,10 23:16

23:22 30:17 31:7,13

32:7 33:14 37:10 39:2

39:4,5,13 40:2,5,18

46:16 47:3 57:8 58:10

100:2 104:17 105:17

105:22 112:10 113:12

113:19 121:9 125:5

141:8 143:21 144:5

hypertension 47:21

hypoorganisms 88:2

I

IB 73:20

idea 93:18 98:16 100:7

117:2,20,21 119:14

120:22 130:5,20

139:19 140:1

ideal 112:10

ideas 23:15,15

identified 79:9

identifies 71:14

identify 52:20

IDPA 169:17,17

ignorance 37:20

ignores 32:14

ignoring 129:7

image 73:21

Imagine 97:6

impact 29:8 40:19

112:5 123:20 175:11

176:13

impacted 141:5

impacts 111:18

implemented 88:4

implications 41:3

important 34:21 41:8

41:13 45:7 58:11,20

72:2,3 73:11 83:5

86:12 130:12

importantly 6:11

imports 50:22

impossible 155:18

improve 96:4 171:19

improvement 95:16

improvements 66:2

improves 175:19

inappropriate 20:6

134:20

inception 75:5

include 26:11 63:18

64:18 75:18

included 30:7 32:8

63:21

includes 28:3 33:6

82:14 111:8 143:6

171:8

including 15:9 26:8

28:20 72:7 96:1 102:2

103:14 109:4 174:17

inclusion 105:2

inclusive 33:8 69:1

incomplete 64:14

inconsistent 47:16

incorporated 110:13

179:19

increase 97:21 151:1

increases 107:11

175:17

increasing 19:8 68:8

150:6 175:10

incredibly 156:12

incur 68:4

independent 77:5

141:19,19

indicated 20:4

indicates 40:22

individual 90:5

individual's 47:9

individuals 51:13

indoors 122:6

industrial 169:18

industries 171:18

industry 20:8 86:10,17

86:19 88:11 95:13

105:2 141:1 161:5

180:10 182:4

inert 30:22 37:19 133:6

inerts 95:21

infant 148:16

infestation 112:19

infiltrated 167:12

infiltration 167:5,10,12

information 4:16 20:1

43:14 53:2 61:19

76:13 81:14 126:5

162:12 163:18

infrastructure 183:7

ingestible 181:5

ingredient 172:2

ingredients 64:7 99:1

143:7

initial 77:14

initiate 94:1

Initiative 90:11 93:8

innovation 19:13 96:10

97:16 134:13 160:22

161:4

innovative 32:17 177:2

innovator/leader 182:4

inorganic 111:15,21

112:4,9,10

input 20:22 22:9 24:1

90:4 132:22 135:13

141:15 142:20 143:3

169:3

inputs 13:14 14:2 20:19

21:14 23:1 133:6,8,12

143:12,13 144:13

145:2 154:11

inserted 166:20

insertional 168:4

insinuate 121:4

insoluble 144:17,22

145:3,4,11,21

inspection 103:2 107:7

inspections 30:13

inspectors 106:18

installed 159:14

instance 78:1 144:9

instances 175:6

Institute 132:6

instruments 124:6

insufficient 88:6

integrity 30:16 66:4

96:21 104:14 115:14

intended 95:15 96:4

97:12

intensity 104:2

intention 82:7

intentional 64:22

interchange 54:15

interest 19:5 69:6 71:7

80:4

interested 40:12 108:10

163:18 165:10 179:15

interesting 98:10

interests 18:17

Intergenesis 166:12,21

intermediary 113:9

internal 109:2

international 52:7 99:8

169:16 172:3

interpret 35:13 96:14

interpreted 23:14

interrupt 74:16,20

interval 24:16,21

intragenesis 26:19 27:9

63:20 64:19,21

intrigued 108:18

introduce 28:17

introduced 25:16

167:11

introducing 167:6

introductory 6:15

introns 28:3

invented 24:7 176:11

invertebrates 72:7

invest 51:4

investigated 38:10

investigating 61:1

invitro 28:22

involve 64:21

involved 77:13 115:18

involves 28:19 110:20

166:13

ionic 68:12

ions 60:2

irrigate 18:4

irrigation 147:5

issue 5:20 36:1 57:4

63:14 71:8 73:11

85:14 100:5,6 119:3,9

159:9 163:11

issue's 177:5

issues 6:9 26:8 36:1

52:20 71:15 86:7,22

87:4,5 88:12 92:17

93:11 97:2

items 90:5 135:13

142:20 143:3,9,10

J

Jackie 109:10

Jacksonville 4:17

15:11

jam 175:14

January 14:22

Jaydee 27:18 147:19

158:6 165:20,21

166:5 168:22

Jeff 48:7

Jennifer 11:12,13,17

173:19

Jesse 1:14 8:21,22 9:6

9:11 11:1,3,7

job 116:6,6,19 183:14

Joelle 1:17 9:20,22

John 100:21
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joke 174:1

Journal 47:13

juice 171:13

Julene 172:13 173:17

jump 138:12

junction 102:18

justification 14:16

18:12

K

Karen 114:11 115:1

131:14,16,18,19

132:2,5 135:10,11

136:4 138:9 142:2

keep 6:12 11:5 33:13

43:3 78:22 96:16

106:11 140:19 141:2

150:10 161:15 168:17

keeping 106:11

kelp 71:9 95:10

kelps 72:2

kept 78:7 107:11

Ketchel 66:17 70:17

74:8,11,21 75:2 77:16

78:4 79:2 80:3 82:1,4

82:12 83:21 84:2,20

key 13:2 86:9

kilogram 48:5

kilometers 77:9

kinds 28:12 120:4

Knott's 126:3

knowledge 61:21 155:9

knowledgeable 80:8

known 71:8

Koslowski 172:13

173:17

Kristen 95:4 101:8,8,10

101:11,14,16 106:9

110:1

Kyle 89:13 95:4 101:5,6

101:6,7

L

lab 39:3 144:11 145:22

label 19:15 34:20,22

35:3 37:7 48:15 49:12

58:4,7 119:15,16,21

120:14 121:1,6

122:22 123:4,8,10

134:1

labeling 35:18 57:7

105:4 108:11 134:1

labels 19:14 121:4,5

labile 152:7

labor 52:9 68:5 140:19

150:5,7 154:1,3,5,8

154:22 155:1,6 159:1

176:21

lack 15:15 24:1 47:10

121:16

land 16:19 19:8 25:12

51:21 77:7 123:12

132:17 134:5,7 135:1

135:1,3

landfilling 177:1

landfills 86:11

language 27:3

large 25:4 49:4 77:7

81:2 111:20 126:15

126:18 132:14 134:3

140:11,11

larger 23:9 52:5

largest 37:17 51:11

75:20 76:9

lastly 19:20 65:5 141:22

late 30:16 63:6

latest 91:6

launch 12:19

lava 56:7,8,10

law 84:4 180:22

lead 43:14 171:9

leader 50:22

leafy 12:12 16:16 38:21

112:3

learned 20:1 57:14

leave 142:4

leaves 167:11

left 15:5 22:2 92:1

legal 139:8

legislations 150:8

legumes 130:16

Leonard 112:1

let's 97:2 134:18 161:15

lettuce 16:16 17:2,6

25:10,17 111:21

112:7 141:16

lettuces 12:12

level 38:18 39:14,14

60:6 68:1 83:17

112:18 153:18 155:4

levels 37:15,19 38:13

145:3

Lewis 2:2 3:9 4:3,4

life 18:6 38:1,1,13,18

39:2 81:15 97:8

104:11

Life-support 38:9

light 103:11,14,18

104:3,3,5,9,10 110:16

Lima 1:16 9:14,15

limit 28:12 102:12,14

limitation 118:22

limitations 33:10 104:3

limited 132:18,21,22

limiting 103:10

line 8:9,21 9:20 11:14

26:1 36:8 46:1,5 50:2

50:15 53:19 62:18

66:18 70:18 74:10,19

88:22 89:2,5,7,12

94:17,19 101:5,8,13

110:2 114:12 124:15

131:17 138:13 147:14

158:7 165:21 166:1

172:17,18

lines 28:8

Lipson 88:21 89:4,7,9

89:18,18 92:9 93:3

94:9,14

liquid 54:13 68:10,15

87:16,17 88:9 102:13

105:10,16 106:1

125:13 145:7,11,14

145:21 146:18,20

147:2 149:19 154:11

155:5,5,16

liquidize 55:2

Lisa 1:16 2:3 9:14

list 2:3 6:17 8:2 11:17

26:20 30:8 43:3 63:19

64:13 66:7 76:8 79:6

82:20 91:14 96:5,8,17

96:18 97:15 128:10

128:14 129:3,13

135:13 142:20 143:3

170:5 172:7 173:18

176:17

listed 26:15 27:14

65:14 162:20 163:4

164:13

listening 133:19

listing 29:8 171:3

literature 37:21 40:8

little 21:4 46:19 47:3

49:2 61:15 70:3,5

74:17 75:6 80:1 84:11

84:13 94:20 108:16

110:16 125:13 127:12

127:21 128:7 154:13

162:17 165:5,8

live 22:21 56:7

lived 46:20 128:10

lives 152:22

living 97:7

local 12:12

located 22:17 112:17

location 160:16 164:13

logical 72:14

long 78:6 86:2 115:18

119:5 160:15 164:15

longer 156:19

look 4:22 24:10 41:20

73:10 106:4,22

108:15 119:10 130:6

141:13 177:3 183:10

looked 40:16 43:7

75:10 141:7

looking 6:7 82:8 91:13

98:12 106:13 117:5,6

121:10 131:4 135:2

141:12 142:21 151:22

looks 5:19 9:6 23:19

114:15 138:10 145:14

154:5

lose 5:15 32:13 122:13

losing 11:5 51:5

loss 44:20

lot 31:16 53:2 56:7

58:16 59:10 93:15

117:19 121:20 122:2

123:14 124:11 133:4

136:20,21 137:2

139:1,2 141:9 153:7

155:11 156:11 160:20

169:4 178:2 182:3,10

182:10

lots 76:14,15 77:22

love 134:4

low 25:4 49:2 144:16

145:12 146:1,3

lower 52:9 112:18

176:5

lowering 47:20 96:1

lump 15:17

M

ma'am 10:3

machine 72:11 175:13

176:10

machinery 175:14,15

main 67:10 69:18

Maine 115:7 119:6

maintain 73:5 77:2

126:19

maintains 22:11

maintenance 71:19

major 36:1 76:8 171:5

181:1 182:3

majority 140:10,12

141:20 147:4,4 149:5

171:12

makeup 24:6

making 54:19 181:17

mammals 43:19

man 115:3

manage 67:3 92:3

124:2 136:6 148:8

management 45:13

121:15

manager 2:3 42:17

109:9 147:22 150:13

managing 116:19
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121:15 136:12

mandate 124:4

mandates 117:14

Mani 46:9 50:5,9,11,14

Manico 89:14 95:4

101:5

manipulate 153:19

155:4

manipulated 27:7

153:18 155:16

manipulating 154:8

manipulation 28:22

manual 52:9

manufacturers 139:16

181:2

manufacturers' 158:13

manufacturing 179:9

manure 21:19,20 87:5,6

87:8,8,9 88:3

manuring 117:3

Marc 66:17 70:17 74:8

74:9,12,15,20 75:2

77:21 81:17,18

March 17:2

marine 71:8,8,13,18

72:3,5,18 73:3,6,9

mark 7:15 88:21 89:4,8

89:11,15,18 92:7,14

94:3,5,12 158:6

163:21 165:20 169:7

169:8,11,15

marked 64:15

market 35:14 52:7

77:13 167:3

marketplace 34:19

37:14 75:12 121:3

123:1,5,9

Martens 169:8 172:13

172:17 173:20 174:3

174:5,12,12 177:22

178:14 179:2,11,20

181:8,18 182:21

Marti 12:3 16:9 25:21

25:22 26:5 29:11

166:10

mass 164:8 179:16

master's 12:17

match 41:6

material 26:13 44:15

80:11,12,17,17 81:11

93:15 135:13 142:20

143:3 155:5,6 163:12

166:20 176:4 178:3

179:19 180:4,17

materials 2:5 35:8 43:4

63:13,16,18 71:8,13

71:18 79:7 93:12

96:16 97:2 98:17

128:12 129:16 164:5

165:14 178:3 180:13

MATT 2:5

matter 13:17 14:11 80:7

149:20 157:1 175:16

177:13 183:15

matters 7:7

maximum 126:10

McDonald 42:11 46:5,6

46:13,14

McELROY 2:6

McEvoy 31:7

meal 43:15 44:7 127:2

meals 127:2

mean 20:17,20 24:21

41:6 60:21 61:11

68:11 76:13 78:10

80:19 82:12,13,16

105:15 107:9 136:18

138:1,2 150:20

153:22 154:2 155:14

155:21 156:22 178:16

181:20

meaning 69:18 121:10

144:16

meaningful 149:11

means 168:6

meant 139:10

measure 116:1,8

136:18 144:8

measured 39:3

measurement 102:19

103:7

measurements 137:4

measures 49:6

measuring 100:7

123:20 127:15,19

129:22 130:1,5,21,21

130:22 131:2

mechanical 74:1 150:4

154:2

mechanism 54:18

167:22

media 21:7 143:6,14

146:6,8,12 154:9

171:12

medium 30:22 38:5

41:21 53:2 60:4 61:4

69:13 145:19

meet 91:3 144:3 154:20

159:17,22 182:8

meeting 4:7,10,12,17

5:13 8:5 14:21 18:19

19:17 31:5 91:17,18

93:19 95:18,22 118:7

183:10

meetings 4:19

meets 13:1 72:22

159:10

member 3:14 151:17

members 1:12 4:6 7:2,9

11:10 13:8 50:19

52:14 55:5 67:6 88:11

108:2 182:22 183:3

memo 29:2 158:15

159:21 162:20 163:4

mention 150:5

mentioned 16:14

106:10 142:2 153:5

merely 163:6

message 7:2 53:20

114:21

metal 39:10

metals 171:9

meter 164:4,8 179:17

179:18

method 16:18 20:9

27:16 29:5,10 30:18

39:1 43:10 73:22

100:9 110:20,20

167:2,4,5 168:9

methods 19:18 20:8

26:15,16,20,22 27:4,5

27:20 30:9 31:4 32:2

33:15 35:22 39:1,6

63:11,17,19,22 64:14

65:10,14 88:2 112:5

120:3 163:5 167:1

168:6

mic 85:11

Michael 42:10 46:7,8,10

46:13 49:19

Michelle 2:2 3:15 4:3

6:1 7:14 8:6 36:12

53:20 74:17 94:7

163:22

micro-biomes 112:6

microbes 40:1,4,18

149:20 156:22

microbial 111:19 113:3

microbiome 38:3,12,17

41:12,20 111:3

microbiomes 113:13

microcrystalline

162:16

micronutrients 21:2

22:7,13

microorganisms 55:1,8

111:4 130:18 177:12

middle-aged 51:19

Midwest 101:17

Mike 46:5

miles 17:5,7 31:7 77:8

military 132:10

Miller 42:18

milligram 48:6

milligrams 164:8

179:17

milling 171:15

million 43:18

mind 109:6 120:14

121:12 125:16 140:20

141:3

mindful 135:7

mineral 169:21 178:19

mineral- 30:18

mineral-nutrient 30:21

minimum 68:7 75:18,19

minority 33:1

minute 7:12,15

minutes 7:13 86:3 88:6

96:3 102:8 158:4

182:19

Miraj 88:21 89:11,13

94:15 173:20

misinformation 15:15

133:5,9,18

missing 121:9

mission 159:3

misuse 182:3

mix 152:7 156:18

mixed 126:16 146:19

149:15

mixing 28:19

mixture 127:1

mixtures 160:6 161:2,6

mobile 167:17

model 38:11

moderate 154:19

modern 64:17 65:2

159:8 162:13 167:14

modification 28:1

64:22 110:20

module 138:21

MOFGA 115:19,21

moisture 87:12,19

molecules 54:16 111:5

Molino 89:19

mom 140:13

moment 16:8 50:9 95:3

money 160:21

monitoring 112:17

monograph 171:8

months 47:1 81:11

morning 80:7

Mortensen 9:19

MOSA 101:16,22

103:15 104:18,19

105:9 107:2

moss 70:1 146:7,13

Mosso 1:17 9:20,21

Mother 37:8

mothers 117:8

move 8:1 28:7 36:5
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62:14 67:1 70:14

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moved 27:7

moving 11:8 25:20

26:21 46:5 62:15

66:15 173:17

muddled 20:7

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158:18,21 159:4,5,7

159:14,16,21 160:7

160:22 174:16 175:2

175:9,12,17,18,22

176:9,16,17 177:8

179:16 180:12 181:21

182:6

Mulches 158:19

multiple 13:7 87:22

multitude 54:7

munchable 179:10,13

mutagens 168:5

mutations 168:5

mute 6:12,13 8:15 9:3,8

74:19 78:22 85:6

87:21 89:10 94:21

98:13 99:21 114:14

114:16 118:13 136:1

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131:18

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mycorrhiza 142:1

mycorrhizae 55:6,14

60:21 61:3 62:10

mycorrhizal 61:9

N

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23:4,12 24:19

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16:10 26:4,5 30:2,4

36:17,18 42:14,16

46:11,13 50:11,13

54:1,3 63:3,7 66:22

67:3 70:21 74:13 75:2

89:16 95:5 101:15

110:9 115:5 132:3,4

138:15 147:20,21

158:10,11 166:4

169:12 174:10

name's 138:16

named 112:1

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national 1:3,9 2:3 4:5,8

4:12,20 5:8 26:15

50:20 73:9 96:5,8,17

96:18 97:15 109:1

128:10,13 129:3

170:5 172:6,8 176:16

183:5

native 28:4

natural 13:15 14:9,13

17:22 18:5 22:12,15

22:20 24:2 28:1 71:20

98:17 140:18 157:20

naturally 48:6 167:16

nature 56:6,11 107:6

164:22

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113:11

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32:16 35:2,9 41:8

44:1,3,8,12 45:6,11

57:18 59:13 62:2

76:12 84:10,11 86:21

90:21 91:18 96:22

97:14 103:4 104:9

106:4 125:8 135:7

150:9 152:14 154:16

154:20 155:22 157:18

160:9 173:2

needed 39:18 102:10

157:8

needs 13:17 14:11

32:19 35:18,20 39:16

68:3,15,16 90:17 91:4

91:17 125:8 145:6

149:17 150:18

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nervous 116:1 121:2

128:3 130:6

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38:22 39:5 41:16

44:11,15,18 48:12

64:3,10 65:9 66:6

68:1 134:15 149:10

175:9,19 176:18

179:6 180:10,11

NFT 136:22

NGOs 95:12

nice 180:10

nine 112:14 160:2

nitrate 38:20 39:1,6

47:15,16,18,22 48:7

95:20 111:12 118:1

125:20 128:8,9,20

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28:18

nitrates 39:7 47:10 48:3

106:14 156:12

nitrification 22:16

111:9 157:3,17

nitrogen 68:3,10,13,13

68:16 100:8 102:12

102:14 103:8 106:12

107:17 125:2,3,8,17

125:21 126:6,8

130:16 136:12,13

143:22 144:1,8,12,15

144:16,21,22 145:4,5

145:8,11,12,20 146:2

146:5,18 148:11

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151:20 152:7,8,21

153:8,13,18,20

154:10,16,20 155:4

155:10 156:19 157:2

157:8,18 178:19

nitrogenous 111:11,12

nitrogens 152:6

noise 74:18

non 132:16 155:5

171:14

non- 43:8

non-GMO 21:17 83:17

83:17

non-metallic 169:21

non-organic 17:16

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15:1 18:13 19:4 22:8

29:2 30:17 31:1 32:5

37:6 72:18 86:20

90:17 93:12 117:15

117:22 119:18 124:1

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normally 78:8

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NOSB 2:3 5:1 7:9 15:4

15:10,12 26:21 30:6

31:5 64:6,10,16 66:5

71:12 92:16 93:11

95:14 109:7 115:11

115:13,16 129:1,4

133:12 168:11 170:4

171:1 172:4 176:15

NOSB's 65:1

note 55:4 65:5,17 116:7

Novamont 174:13

novel 166:21

November 4:12 17:2

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NST 111:21

nucleic 29:1 167:6,10

167:13

nullify 32:5

number 7:2 24:15,20

25:16 40:1 51:19 52:1

98:20 103:11 114:18

116:12 173:10,13

numbers 103:16

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60:10,13 61:10 86:12

113:9 123:21 124:2,5

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occur 55:12 98:21

occurring 4:17 19:7

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October 1:7 4:11 26:11

offer 12:13 86:9 122:12

offering 90:4

office 166:8

Offices 93:20

officials 91:8

offsite 46:18

OFPA 115:20 117:14

118:8 139:6,7,9,13,18

154:4 155:2

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oil 171:15 177:4

oils 171:16

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old 12:16 51:15 176:10

179:5

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once 46:4 89:4 101:6

128:17 143:10 172:15

one's 20:6 161:17,18

one-off 60:14 61:13

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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42:22 69:5 75:1 99:18

101:1,18 119:12

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opposite 118:20 142:13

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optimal 153:20

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66:5 167:7

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organizations 119:4

orientation 28:5

original 117:7 120:14

originally 82:8,20

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outperformed 112:8

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Outright 46:22

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overall 48:12 90:6

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parameters 126:20

paraphrase 137:14

paraphrasing 139:12

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93:9 98:3 117:20

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126:6 139:13 150:17

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partner 89:19

partnership 132:7

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passionate 12:20

paste 167:22

pasteurization 87:20

pasteurize 88:5

pasteurized 87:11

pasture 106:20 107:5

pastures 106:22

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peer-reviewed 87:22

pending 16:15

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47:6 80:8 84:3,15

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118:20 119:3,8,22

120:2 121:20 125:12

129:4,6 134:4 137:20

139:2 141:1 145:18

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102:13 105:10,16

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149:1,16 150:21

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159:10 160:2 162:13

162:14 163:2,13

175:18 180:3,19,22

181:2,15,21 182:6

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150:15 151:3 153:1

perennials 150:19

Perfect 85:19

perform 159:18 160:6

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112:6 160:14

period 6:19 87:2

perlite 70:1

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62:17,18,19,22 63:5,7

66:10

permits 6:20

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person 95:14

personal 91:21

personality 119:11

personally 5:3 58:5

155:22 156:13

perspective 119:1

120:5

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143:6,13

pesticide 49:1 75:13

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pesticides 35:6 76:22

80:21,22 82:8

petrochemical 177:7

petroleum 159:10

161:21 162:2 177:18

178:3,16

petroleum-powered

17:12

pH 22:11

pharmaceutical 171:18

pharmaceuticals 167:9

Pharmacopeia 171:6

PhD 48:8

philosophically 83:6

philosophy 97:17

phone 7:1 9:7 11:18

85:5,9 173:9

phosphate 70:2

photo 73:20 159:13

physical 113:10 114:3

154:10 160:6

picture 134:3

pictured 176:10

piece 108:14

pieces 168:3

place 93:14 96:16

102:19 113:21 120:22

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places 135:2

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104:11 111:6 112:6

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150:12,15 152:10

156:5,5,6 157:1

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23:9 30:18,20 38:3

55:3 56:9 60:10 65:13

65:21 68:12,14 72:12

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107:18 111:1,14,16

112:20 113:7,16

150:10,16,22 152:4

153:6,13,17,21 155:4

156:10 157:18 167:8

167:19 177:14,19

178:4

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plastic 175:12,13 176:1

176:5 177:1 180:18

plastics 174:19

play 111:4

playing 115:21

plays 41:13

please 4:15 6:11 19:22

24:15 30:2 37:22

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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175:21 176:6,6,7,13

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122:16,20 123:11

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109:9 166:6

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pollution 67:17

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polyesters 182:10

polyethylene 159:4

174:19

polymer 161:21 179:9

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ponder 41:4 83:12

poo 130:4

pooed 130:5

poop 177:12

pop 140:13

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populated 30:14

population 32:16 35:4

porous 56:8

portfolios 91:2

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positive 33:15

possibility 156:20

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159:6

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potatoes 167:3

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PowerPoint 172:19

practical 81:14 103:22

practically 104:14

practice 81:20 97:10

116:7,22 130:22

174:18 176:9

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67:13 69:1,2 93:12

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116:11 117:10 130:14

130:17 131:5 134:8

160:15

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preamble 128:22

precautionary 97:18

precedent 117:22

preclude 139:14 142:11

predominantly 170:1

premium 35:2

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prescriptive 67:12

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presenting 26:6

preserve 66:3

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60:13 85:13 98:18

118:19 119:17 143:8

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82:17 86:15 90:22

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32:15 46:14 49:11,13

141:12,16 149:11

159:1 167:7 176:4,22

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93:4,10 105:2 171:4

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82:5 96:20 97:13

105:22 106:17 107:13

108:21 113:22 169:17

169:19 171:5 172:4

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22:12 72:19 116:9

144:17 172:1 177:6

177:20 181:22 182:14

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122:8,17,21 126:15

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169:19 171:14 176:21

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92:5 93:22 126:2

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120:16 124:8

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113:1 125:7 152:6,9

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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recipes 158:17

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record-keeping 102:22

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117:15 124:4

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related 86:4,7,22 87:5,6

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relates 121:11,15 137:6

relating 71:12

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relatives 166:19

release 156:19

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Remarks 3:11

remember 6:12 97:4

128:18 182:7

remind 19:20 23:6

reminder 74:18 78:22

168:17

removal 72:11 171:21

176:15

remove 143:10

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represents 169:18

request 76:3,11 77:10

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requests 96:4

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96:7 99:12 107:11

148:10 149:6 151:20

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75:22 76:5 79:22 88:5

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106:21 107:17 118:8

125:2,4,21 126:6

144:4 148:11 149:17

151:4,20 153:13,13

155:10 160:1

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102:19 103:9,20

104:16 108:17 150:19

152:21 153:6 159:17

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154:3 162:21,22

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requiring 180:16

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61:13 62:6 71:2 85:20

89:21 90:3,7,11,12,14

90:17 91:2,8 92:1,4,5

92:18 93:5,7,19

103:19 104:12 133:20

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researched 62:6

researchers 73:7

reside 132:22

residue 130:7,15

resilient 37:8,12

resources 68:5 132:18

140:18 141:20

respect 7:16 93:12

respected 50:19 52:14

response 5:17 9:2,5,9

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restating 163:6

restrict 97:13 128:12,14

restriction 87:7 128:10

restrictions 31:12 87:1

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resulting 113:15

results 28:9 90:13

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retrieve 56:9

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review 90:22 93:6

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reviewed 171:1

reviewing 93:21 143:20

revisited 88:9

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rhythm 103:12 104:8

rhythms 103:21

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risks 166:22

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53:20 63:2 66:16,18

66:21 67:3 69:8 70:13

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robust 38:18 109:5

rock 56:7,8,10 70:1

146:9

Roger 131:16 138:13

147:18 158:5,7,9,11

165:19

role 111:4 115:21

roll 3:14 8:7

ROMERO-BRIONES

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room 84:15 92:1 100:16

root 24:18 38:3 54:12

55:12 61:5,7 68:1

111:19

root-zone 38:6,17

rooted 39:17

roots 30:21 55:22 60:1

177:8,10

round 157:22

route 41:13

rule 76:7 93:13 128:22

129:19

rulemaking 15:2,3

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rules 65:19 118:8 155:2

run 125:10 126:2

running 161:15

rural 132:16

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54:3 57:12 59:18 60:5

61:17

safe 39:18 122:9 170:8

170:19,22 182:1

safety 26:7,11,18 88:7

166:7

salient 37:21

samples 76:16 79:16

sanitation 43:6,10

sanitizers 43:8

Santa 89:22

saw 56:18 114:13

saying 24:8 35:17

48:17 82:13,22 84:8,8

107:14 118:21 127:14

131:1,2 139:2 178:20

says 62:7 117:15

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scale 52:6 123:2 140:11

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schedule 62:15,16

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scheduled 4:11

school 72:7

science 37:12 39:17

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Sciences 39:3 48:10

scientific 15:16 37:21

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scientifically 55:10

56:4 57:22 62:5

scientist 41:1,12,15

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scientists 112:1 166:9

Scott 1:18 10:4,6 77:19

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seamlessly 183:8

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second 4:9 5:14 6:8

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101:11 107:6 110:5

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Secondly 139:19

Secretary 1:14

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166:5

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sentence 7:18 100:1,4

separate 19:21 20:9

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separation 171:20

serve 169:15

service 151:11

services 72:15 101:17

serving 115:13

session 5:14 31:22
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set 70:7 114:20 117:22

135:5

setting 104:10

settle 25:7

seven 112:7 143:12

sexual 28:15

sexually 28:2 166:18

Shannon 2:4 50:9

53:11,12,16,18,22

54:3 59:19 62:12

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100:16

shared 79:20 97:5

sharing 109:6

shell 22:10

shore 72:15

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160:14

short- 46:19

show 133:2 145:1 146:1

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112:18

showing 40:14 61:13

shown 72:4,7,9

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shrinked 96:20

shrinking 97:15

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Sideman 101:14 110:6

114:11,22 115:3,6,6

120:7 122:15 123:17

125:14 128:1,3,16,20

130:2,4 131:9,13

152:4 153:4

sides 57:4,10 119:3,9

sign 137:2

significantly 150:5,7

silica 170:2

similar 24:10 39:4 45:8

99:9 113:16 145:14

155:8 181:17

similarly 24:11 128:13

simple 57:15 76:11

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simply 38:6 75:18

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Simultaneous 131:22

sing 174:2

single 76:19 146:20

sir 50:13

site 104:15 106:4

site-specific 67:16

69:17

situation 60:14 84:16

116:20 126:11

six 112:6 150:10

size 70:9 127:6

Skaria 46:9 50:5,7,13

50:14 53:10

skeletal 169:21

skeptical 182:16

skip 6:18 9:10

slaughter 43:19

sleight 177:4

slide 36:20 37:22 38:8

38:20 40:1 72:8

158:20 159:2,5,12,14

159:19 160:4,7,12,17

160:21 161:1,3,3

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175:21 176:6,6,7,13

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97:4 174:14

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slot 115:17

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Smithville 12:10

Snyder 48:8

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37:22 38:4,6,12,16

39:3 40:2,4 41:3,11

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113:10,14 116:3,22

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121:15,20 122:3

126:19 129:8,10

130:14,17,18,22

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139:8,17 142:11

152:1,2,3,13 153:17

154:9,14,19 155:8,9

155:11,22 156:4,11

157:21 158:16,18,19

158:21 159:4,7,11,16

160:14 161:11 164:14

175:1,6 177:4,11

178:5 179:19

soil-based 47:2

soil-grown 16:20 19:15

40:13,16

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149:15

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145:5,8 146:2,4

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soluble 68:10,15

117:21 118:3,5

128:21 129:2,6,15

145:12,21 146:19

152:6

solution 30:21 68:17

96:22 97:20

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solve 98:20

somebody 58:16 61:20

123:6

someone's 6:17

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somewhat 122:4,11

soon 115:11

sorry 5:19 6:5 11:2 23:4

34:16 36:21 49:21

56:20 73:17 74:20

78:17 81:9 92:8 107:8

131:18 146:22 152:15

154:13 157:15 174:8

181:9

sort 97:9 128:12

sound 37:12

source 21:8 178:22

sources 99:12 162:2,4

178:19

South 77:5

space 72:12 132:21

speak 60:7 108:3

110:15 170:3 177:22

179:22

speaker 7:2 36:5 158:5

162:8,9 181:14

speakers 6:22 85:11,16

speaking 46:15 47:11

60:7 78:19 118:12

121:13 131:22 166:11

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specialist 2:3,5 50:17

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specializing 50:15

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species 27:8,8 28:8,18

72:6,14 166:15

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104:15 105:12 106:5

107:17 109:3 128:6

135:21 136:17 146:11

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161:16 167:8

specifically 15:8,13

26:14 47:9,11,14 48:2

48:7 60:8 96:8 129:13

137:4 139:8 144:13

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119:19

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2:5,6 4:5,8,20 5:4,9

12:13 13:1 14:7 19:17

31:10 37:7 38:22

39:15 52:13 56:5 62:1

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72:22 73:2 96:5 99:8

108:7,20,22 109:1

116:12 120:12 124:1

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174:22

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Star 6:12,13 85:9

start 6:6 11:11 12:4

16:10 26:3 30:2 36:17

42:14 46:10 50:11

53:22 63:3 66:22

70:21 74:13 89:16

93:14 95:5 101:14

110:6,9 115:5 123:8

132:3,14 138:14

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169:12 174:10

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130:13,13 180:19

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157:17

state 43:17 139:9

160:16 180:3
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102:1 139:11 171:6

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status 112:21

steer 156:14

step 32:18,18 87:20

Steve 1:17 9:16 20:14

20:15 59:15 60:18

137:11 153:15

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sticking 130:5,9

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Stock 93:6

stop 10:11 47:21

168:13 182:19

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63:17

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113:2 138:5 142:3

144:11,13 145:1

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study 27:21 47:6,6

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subcommittee 1:14

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63:14,16,18 67:7

68:20 100:2 104:19

116:17 117:17 120:10

120:20 127:18 130:19

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151:8,18 170:4 172:5

Subcommittee's 172:9

subject 61:21 69:5 86:5

129:5

submit 138:5

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26:10 33:5 95:18

137:17,19

substances 170:6,13

172:7

substrate 25:11 67:4

69:13,16 145:19

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159:16

sucking 17:9

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109:16

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19:9 49:8 64:12 71:4

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21:10,11,15 22:6,10

22:14,17 23:8,9,11,18

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54:11,12 59:3,9 61:4

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99:15,15 100:17

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136:19,22 143:4

144:9,15,20 146:3,11

147:3,6 148:22

149:21 152:1,3,5,12

152:13,14 153:17

154:3,9,9,15,19

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systems 15:9 23:2,19

24:1 31:8,17 32:22

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55:11,18 62:8 67:21

72:3 80:1 104:21

105:20 106:16,18

113:4,5,13 122:17,21

132:21 133:16 137:17

139:20 141:4,18,18

142:2 145:3

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table 39:8

tables 153:3

taken 49:6 159:13

takes 141:12

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talked 119:2 128:7

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26:8 76:15 77:6 94:21

120:4,9 129:4 136:8

140:20 156:3 172:20

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147:19 158:5,8,11,11

162:1,19 163:10,16

163:20 164:1,9,20

165:12,15,17

tank 25:2

task 14:22 124:19

tasked 15:13

TBD 27:14 64:15

tea 143:7

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technical 26:7 174:6

technically 159:18

technique 12:21 39:5

166:13 167:13

techniques 27:9 28:7

32:17 63:19 64:3,11

64:13,15 65:1,4 66:8

166:11 168:10

technologies 24:10

technology 32:19 63:8

85:22 166:6 181:20

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teleconference 5:6

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174:1

telling 138:22

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140:8 149:16 158:4

160:9 175:4

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63:22 65:15 168:12

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98:12 164:17,21

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Terry 105:6 118:15

test 79:7 80:10,14,21

81:3,3,4,4,5 163:12

tested 56:2 76:12,14

79:13 83:8 181:22

testimony 74:7

testing 77:14,21 78:5

79:11 80:13 81:10

82:7 83:18,18 116:3

158:15 160:11,19,22

161:10 182:8

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146:1 162:19

Texas 12:10 50:17

51:20

text 129:19

textbooks 126:3

thanks 5:21 8:8,17 11:7

37:3 74:19 78:21 79:1

94:5 100:22 124:19

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169:2,14 183:14

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thiamine 43:12 44:12

44:15 45:5,7,12 90:14

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39:22 40:12,22 41:22
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59:19 60:17 69:12

70:11 105:8,14 106:6

124:13,16,18 127:9

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164:11,12

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32:12 33:20 34:1,7

160:11

three 7:12,13,15 26:22

27:4 51:13 52:1 64:20

65:1 86:3 95:19 96:3

96:6,16 102:3 140:5

143:14 147:3 166:11

171:5

thrilled 100:6

thrive 38:4

THURSDAY 1:7

ties 143:20

tighten 76:12

timeframe 78:1 181:11

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times 39:6,12,15 61:6

140:5 149:22 153:21

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tissues 167:6

title 92:2

today 5:1,10 9:19 13:3

30:6 35:13 43:1 46:20

74:7 90:3 108:11

113:21 116:16 139:1

170:3 181:1

today's 4:7,19 5:5

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tolerance 76:21

Tom 1:10,13 3:12,20

5:7,9,15,18 8:8 9:11

11:8,18 36:21 50:2

56:18 74:15 78:21

89:2 94:20 174:1

183:14

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tomatoes 126:22

175:12,19

ton 153:8

tons 154:3

tool 100:21 128:14

142:22 158:22 175:19

toolbox 96:19

tools 107:14 175:9

176:18

top 6:6 148:22 149:21

150:2,21

topic 43:1

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176:12

totally 23:10 119:1,2

touch 60:1 153:1

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tracking 63:12 80:2

traction 98:19

tractors 17:12

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traditional 47:4 48:19

48:21 49:4

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trait 119:11

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transformation 14:14

transformed 20:21

177:11

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Transitions 90:12

transplant 147:2

transposition 168:1

transposons 27:14

63:21 64:20 65:6,12

167:16 168:5,8,12

traveled 75:9

treatment 12:19

tremendous 120:8

trials 47:21

tried 77:4 86:1 176:19

triggers 76:2

trimmings 25:10

trophic 37:19 38:19

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trucks 17:4

true 69:2 142:13

truly 83:6,6 97:18 134:7

trust 19:16 37:7

try 7:3,17 41:18 57:20

59:15 77:2 85:15

114:17 123:9,10

124:2,4 130:7 161:15

trying 64:4 93:18 131:5

155:18 156:14

Tuesday 47:12 55:5

125:5 183:11

tune 174:2

turkeys 21:21

turn 5:7 85:16 134:19

141:2

Twenty-six 67:5

twice 46:4 80:15 89:4

94:17 101:7 172:15

two 6:22 23:5 24:9

25:14 51:7,19 52:2

59:14 87:15 96:11

100:1 108:2 116:12

127:11 128:16 129:12

143:8,13 145:8

161:16 162:17,17,19

176:10

type 104:10 140:12

141:3 146:6,8 156:4,5

158:19 160:14 164:14

types 102:16 128:15

139:19 143:14

typically 79:14

U

U.S 63:9 170:9 171:6

175:4

ultimately 54:12 163:9

umbrella 14:18 15:17

un-mute 85:15

unallowed 97:10

unanimously 64:6

unavailable 98:13

understand 41:2 47:7

48:15 55:12 58:19

82:13,22 100:19

127:22 133:21 152:11

179:18

understanding 20:6,8

60:22 76:2 79:10 91:6

understood 49:5

undertake 15:2

underwater 72:10

undoubtedly 13:3 18:6

unfair 52:7 102:22

unfounded 13:5

unifarming 117:4

unintended 96:13

Union 31:11 88:3

unit 141:16

United 1:1 50:21 51:4,9

51:12 52:8,17 102:1

171:6

university 36:19 48:9

50:18 71:3 126:5

153:10

unmute 6:13 131:19

173:2

unmuted 8:16 73:18

unnecessary 110:21

unobtainable 132:17

unreasonable 13:5

unrelated 110:21

unsafe 37:15

unscrupulous 80:18

unviable 68:7

upcoming 4:10

update 64:6

updates 4:13 66:2

150:1

updating 66:7

uphold 104:13

upstate 67:4

upstream 77:12

uptake 54:21 60:16

149:5 157:7,18

urban 133:1

urge 33:11 43:2 63:17

68:18 151:7

urges 172:7

usable 182:11

USDA 5:2 30:9,13 32:3

32:8 33:7 35:12 39:10

39:16 48:14 49:11

82:7 90:1,10 91:8

92:6 93:19 109:1

116:1 124:19 130:6

use 6:13 13:13 14:2,9

17:11 18:9 20:18

23:17,18 25:9,11,11

27:13 28:15 35:10

40:11 55:3 65:12,17

65:20 69:13,17 86:7

88:13 99:12 103:10

109:1 124:5 125:19

126:3 128:13 131:6

132:20 133:5,13

134:20 136:5 141:7

141:10 142:1 143:13

143:14 145:19 146:6

146:6,9,12 154:1

155:15 160:5 161:5

168:12 170:9,19

useful 90:10 96:17

100:21

uses 16:18 28:7

ushering 48:12

usually 85:11 126:21

146:1 149:14

usurp 123:10

utility 142:22

utilize 86:19 146:12

utilizes 12:10

utilizing 103:5
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204

V

vaccines 65:8,18

valid 41:17

Valley 17:4

valuable 123:4

valve 25:8

variance 31:14

variate 69:20

varieties 28:14,21

112:7 166:18

variety 104:15 111:3

112:2 146:12

various 103:17 106:15

146:9 152:6,22

153:20 166:17

vary 180:1

vast 47:20 140:9,12

141:20

vector 168:5

vectors 167:7 168:3

vegetable 28:14 126:4

126:16,16

vegetables 47:20,22

vegetative 73:9

vehicle 86:18

verifiable 56:5

verification 100:9

verified 57:22

verify 103:4 162:12

165:10

vermiculite 146:10

version 89:5 98:22

versus 38:22 39:7,11

40:5,13,15,18 41:19

154:11 155:5 160:15

160:16 164:18 176:5

178:20 179:6

viable 51:4 68:11 150:9

Vice 1:13

view 33:1 82:19 158:13

viewing 23:13

virtues 33:2

visualize 177:9

Visualizing 97:8

vitality 40:20

vitro 167:10,13

volcanic 146:9

volume 87:18

volunteer 97:22

vote 19:3 20:7 31:22

67:7 68:18 97:20

137:7 151:7 176:15

voted 64:6 67:10

voting 19:21 143:20

VP 85:20

W

wage 68:7

Wagner 16:9 25:22

29:19,22 30:4,5 34:1

34:4,11 35:3

wait 173:16,21 174:2

walks 97:8

wanted 42:22 43:11,15

55:7 57:1 86:6 90:5

92:15 94:6 118:18

128:13 129:11 152:16

165:9 181:11

wants 120:8

warm 126:19

wars 99:4

Washington 160:16

166:8

wasn't 107:9 120:18

130:12 139:9

waste 14:4,14 17:20,21

21:18 44:21 68:5

82:14 86:11 148:18

wasteful 148:13 149:6

watching 136:19

water 12:19 16:19 18:5

18:5,8 22:2,3,15,22

24:5,16 25:4,15 30:19

33:8 38:1,4 54:17,20

55:2 56:8 59:3,21

60:3,11,13 61:4 69:19

140:18 141:8,19

176:9 177:14

watershed 59:8,9

wavelengths 104:11

way 22:1,20 23:12,13

23:20 24:12 25:1

33:13 34:22 52:18

57:15 58:21 60:10,15

68:16 77:14 81:6 84:3

85:15 110:21 116:19

117:5,6 127:15 130:8

136:7 155:8 157:1

ways 48:12 52:15 91:18

92:18 97:19 107:16

web 89:5

webinar 1:5,10 4:8,9,19

5:10,13 6:8 13:7 31:5

71:7

website 4:15

weed 158:22

week 4:9,18 183:12

weekend 183:12

weeks 81:10 147:3

weight 48:5 165:11

176:1

weights 164:3

welcome 3:8 4:6 5:12

6:7 98:4 131:9 165:17

Well-Being 42:17

went 86:2 183:16

wetland 22:19

wetlands 18:2

Whoa 100:4

wide 111:3 146:12

widely 75:20 76:9

wield 48:21

Wil 25:22 29:19 36:6,16

36:19 37:4 39:20,21

39:22 42:6

wild 17:17 71:10,15

72:20,22 73:1,5

Wilson 112:1

wine 171:22

winery 171:13

Wisconsin-Madison

48:9

wish 132:11

Wolf 89:13 94:18,22

95:7,7,7,11 98:14

100:4

wonder 83:8 177:6

wondering 34:18

106:22 122:10 144:2

word 18:19 117:15

words 54:14 179:6

work 34:5 58:16 61:1

70:6 73:11 90:14 91:3

91:16 92:17 93:7,10

104:18 115:7 125:9

125:18 152:1,3 154:3

workable 152:12

worked 106:16,18

110:18 115:9 123:3

150:18

working 17:13 34:2

41:16 63:14 71:10

73:3 115:19 119:22

124:16

works 146:15

world 19:6 50:21 75:10

75:21 76:10

worm 18:9

worms 18:9

worries 74:21

worry 28:11

worst 135:1

wouldn't 134:10,11

163:8

writing 120:12

written 33:4 37:16

95:18

wrote 116:7 124:2

X

Y

YANESSA 2:4

year 37:11 64:5 65:10

68:6 70:5 76:17 93:5

143:15 149:2 150:13

150:22 154:18 156:2

156:5 157:22 176:11

180:20

year's 148:11

year-round 12:11 48:18

years 30:11 49:8 50:17

51:16 54:4 63:12

71:11 75:9 91:15

95:15 110:18 115:9

139:21 140:7,8

150:11,14 174:20

175:4,4 176:10 180:6

182:14

yeast 99:4,5 171:21

yellow 112:16

Yemi 36:7 42:10 45:22

46:1,3 173:19

yesterday 35:17

yield 48:18 153:9

yields 175:18

young 148:14 149:10

149:18

Yuma 17:4

Z

zero 76:21,22 84:9

147:1,1 159:9

zone 38:3 55:13 68:1

155:12

zones 54:12 77:5

0

1

1:00 1:10

1:04 4:2

10,000 160:1

100 38:13 39:6 72:6

76:14,17 82:1 84:9

105:10,16 162:13

181:15,21 182:6

100-person 52:4

11 3:17

11th 26:11

12 87:11,19

120-day 87:7

126 34:4

14 11:10

14th 31:6

15 11:10 68:9 174:20

175:4

15-1 158:15 159:21

165 87:11

167 18:20

17 71:10 88:5

182 3:20
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183 3:22

1963 170:8

1979 170:11

198 18:17

1983 170:17

1986 115:19

1990 38:8 91:21

1992 95:13

1995 30:6

1997 115:16

2

2 37:22 158:14 159:21

160:1

2,000 101:22

20 102:11 106:15 125:2

125:16,21 128:6

140:7 148:21 180:19

200 148:8

2002 88:4 115:16

170:20

2005 51:10 171:2

2009 47:14

2010 140:3,4 171:2

2013 29:2

2014 30:16

2015 171:2

2016 15:1 64:5 71:13

2017 1:7 39:10 134:12

2021 68:9

205.207 71:15 73:1

205.237 43:17

22-year 32:7

25 95:15 110:18 175:18

25-year 12:16

25,000 160:3

26 1:7

29th 37:11

2nd 4:12

3

3 38:8 158:14

30 17:7 50:17 115:9

149:1 180:20

31st 4:11

349 102:2

35,000 160:19

4

4 3:9 38:20

4:07 183:16

40 180:3,20,22

5

5 3:12

50 102:13 113:21 125:7

148:10 155:10 156:1

156:8 181:2

5006 87:8

6

6 6:12 85:9

60 39:12 88:5 159:13

600 134:15

601 99:10

603 99:10

605 96:9 98:11,16,17

606 96:9

64 51:16

7

7 6:13

70 67:3,5

8

8 3:15

80 150:21

80s 123:3

84 18:22 19:3

86-year 51:15

9

90 16:19 17:2 87:7

162:14 163:2,13

95 87:18
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

206

Public Comment Webinar

USDA/NOSB

10-26-17

webinar
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1

 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

 + + + + +

 FALL 2017 MEETING

 + + + + +

 TUESDAY,

 OCTOBER 31, 2017

 The Board met in Florida Ballrooms A, B & C

of the Omni Jacksonville Hotel, 245 Water Street,

Jacksonville, Florida at 8:30 a.m., Tom Chapman,

Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT

TOM CHAPMAN, Chair

ASHLEY SWAFFAR, Vice Chair

JESSE BUIE, Secretary

SUE BAIRD

HARRIET BEHAR

ASA BRADMAN

A-DAE BRIONES

LISA DE LIMA

STEVE ELA

DAVE MORTENSEN

JOELLE MOSSO

EMILY OAKLEY

SCOTT RICE

DAN SEITZ

FRANCIS THICKE
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STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, NOSB Advisory Board

 Specialist, National Organic Program 

DR. LISA BRINES, Ph.D., National List Manager, 

 National Organic Program 

DR. PAUL LEWIS, Ph.D., Director, Standards

 Division, National Organic Program

DEVON PATTILLO, Materials Specialist, National 

 Organic Program 

DR. JENNIFER TUCKER, Ph.D., Associate Deputy 

 Administrator, National Organic Program; 

 Designated Federal Official

ALSO PRESENT 

TOM BARRETT, Allen Farms 

JO ANN BAUMGARTNER, Wild Farm Alliance

ANAIS BEDDARD, Lady Moon Farms

TOM BEDDARD, Lady Moon Farms

JENNIFER BERKEBILE, Pennsylvania Certified

 Organics 

MICHAEL BESANCON, Patagonia 

MARIAN BLOM, IFOAM EU

MICHAEL BROWNBACK, Spiral Path Farm 

DAVE CHAPMAN, Long Wind Farm 

DANIEL COLLIER, International Trade Specialist,

 U.S. Customs and Border Protection

MICHAEL COLLINS, Old Athens Farm 

JIM CRAWFORD, New Morning Farm; The Cornucopia 

 Institute 

THEOJARY CRISANTES, Wholesum Harvest

GERALD DAVIS, Grimmway Farms 

LINLEY DIXON, The Cornucopia Institute

MICHAEL DURANDO, Director, Marketing Order and 

 Agreement Division, Specialty Crops Program,

 Agricultural Marketing Service

MATTHEW FARMER, APHIS/Plant Protection and 

 Quarantine

JIM FULLMER, Demeter Association

JIM GERRITSEN, Wood Prairie Farm

KARL HAMMER, Vermont Compost Company 

PAUL HARLOW, Harlow Farm
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ALSO PRESENT

PETER JOHNSON, Pete's Greens

IAN JUSTUS, Driscoll's 

MARK KASTEL, The Cornucopia Institute 

MADISON KEMPNER, NOFA-VT

FRED KIRSCHENMANN, Iowa State 

ALAN LEWIS, Natural Grocers 

ESTEBAN MACIAS, Grupo U

JESSE MARANVILLE, Georgia Gulf Sulfur

MELODY MEYER, UNFI

JOHANNA MIRENDA, OMRI

DAVEY MISKELL, Miskell's Premium Organics

JEFF MOYER, Rodale Institute

EMILY MUSGRAVE, Driscoll's 

ROGER NOONAN, Middle Branch Farm; New England 

 Farmers Union

HOWARD PRUSSACK, High Meadow Farms 

URVASHI RANGAN, U R Consulting

JIM RIDDLE, Blue Fruit Farm

KYLA SMITH, Pennsylvania Certified Organics

MARY-SCOTT STANDISH, Fresh2o Growers 

LISA STOKKE, next7.org

RUSSELL TAYLOR, Humic Products Trade Association

ANGELA TENBROECK, THF Hubery; CSAEC 

CHARLOTTE VALLAEYS, Consumer Reports 
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 C O N T E N T S

Call to Order. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

Agenda Overview. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

Introductions. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8

Secretary's Report . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12

USDA National Organic Program Report . . . . . . .12

Office of Inspector General Report . . . . . . . .37

ANSI Peer Review Update. . . . . . . . . . . . . .52

NOSB Report. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .59

Panel - Imports. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 103

National Organic Program - Materials Update/

Summary of new and outstanding petitions . . . . 206

Public Comments. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 224

Adjourn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 501
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:35 a.m.

3 DR. TUCKER: Okay. Good morning

4 everyone. We're going to get started here.

5 Welcome. We are officially opening

6 the fall 2017 National Organic Standards Board

7 Meeting.

8 My name is Jennifer Tucker. And I'm

9 the Associate Deputy Administrator of the

10 National Organic -- the National Organic Program,

11 part of the Agricultural Marketing Service.

12 First I want to thank everyone for

13 being here. Thank you for making your way to

14 Jacksonville. And Happy Halloween.

15 I'm going to be serving as the

16 Designated Federal Official or DFO for this

17 meeting. At previous meetings that role had been

18 filled by Miles McEvoy, who left the National

19 Organic Program at the end of September.

20 I worked side by side with Miles for

21 six years. So, sitting in this seat today is a

22 true honor and very, very meaningful for me.
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1 He's not here with us today. But I'd

2 like to recognize his service. Can we give him a

3 round of applause?

4 (Applause.)

5 DR. TUCKER: Thank you. Next, I'd

6 like to give a special thank you to Tom Chapman

7 to my right here. Tom is the Chair of the Board

8 and this meeting.

9 That role takes tremendous focus and

10 organization. We're really, really grateful for

11 his work. So can we give him a round of applause

12 in advance for a great meeting?

13 (Applause.)

14 DR. TUCKER: And finally, I'd like to

15 recognize and thank Francis Thicke. Francis is

16 completing his fifth year with the Board So this

17 is his last in person meeting as a Board member.

18 So -- yes.

19 (Applause.)

20 DR. TUCKER: Francis has invested

21 many, many hours. And has brought extensive

22 insights and experience to this group over the
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1 last five years.

2 We're incredibly grateful for his

3 service. We'll be formally recognizing him on

4 Thursday. But I wanted to mention him right up

5 front.

6 So again, Francis, thank you.

7 (Applause.)

8 DR. TUCKER: I'm going to introduce

9 the rest of the NOP team during the NOP update. 

10 But right now I'm going to hand things over to

11 Tom.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you Jenny. Hello

13 and welcome everyone. Thank you for traveling

14 here today to participate and observe the NOSB

15 meeting.

16 I hope everyone traveled safe. And is

17 enjoying Florida's hospitality.

18 I'm going to briefly review the

19 agenda. And then we'll do brief introductions of

20 the Board Members.

21 So this morning we're going to take

22 care of some formalities and introductions. And
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1 then later we'll hear reports, the NOP Report and

2 ANSI Peer Review Audit from Jenny, the Associate

3 Deputy Administrator.

4 After a brief update from the Chair,

5 we will then move onto a panel of experts on

6 imports with representatives from several federal

7 agencies.

8 In the afternoon we will be getting an

9 update on the National List and Petition status. 

10 And then get into public comment for the rest of

11 the day.

12 Tomorrow we'll continue with public

13 comment in the morning. And then move onto crops

14 and the CACS Subcommittee after that.

15 On Thursday we have livestock handling

16 in the Materials Subcommittee. And then we'll

17 finish with any deferred items, review of the

18 current work agenda, recognition of outgoing

19 member, if we let him leave, and an election of

20 officers.

21 With that we'll move onto

22 introductions. Jenny, as she said, will
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1 introduce NOP Members later during her

2 presentation.

3 So let's start with NOP Members today. 

4 If we could start with you?

5 MS. BRIONES: A-dae Briones.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: And maybe the seat you

7 sit in.

8 MS. BRIONES: Oh, Public Interest. 

9 And I've been here for two years.

10 MS. DE LIMA: Good morning. Lisa de

11 Lima. MOM's Organic Market. I'm in the

12 Retailers seat. This is my third year.

13 MR. BRADMAN: Asa Bradman with UC

14 Berkeley. And I'm also on the Board of Trustees

15 of the Organic Center. And I'm in the

16 Environmental and Conservation seat.

17 MS. MOSSO: Joelle Mosso. I'm with

18 Olam Spice and Vegetable Ingredients out of

19 Fresno. And I am in my first year along with

20 Asa. And I'm in the Processor/Handler seat.

21 MR. ELA: Steve Ela. Ela Family Farms

22 in Hotchkiss, Colorado. I sit in the -- one of
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1 the Growers seats. And this is my first year.

2 MR. MORTENSEN: Dave Mortensen. A

3 faculty member in Agro-Ecology at Penn State in

4 State College, Pennsylvania. Finishing my first

5 year on the Board.

6 MR. BUIE: Jesse Buie. Ole Brook

7 Organics, Brookhaven, Mississippi. I sit in the

8 Organic Producers seat.

9 And I've been on the Board a year and

10 a half. And I'm the Secretary of the Board.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: Hi. I'm Ashley Swaffar. 

12 I'm from Fayetteville, Arkansas. I sit in the

13 Producers seat. I have a small certified organic

14 mixed vegetable farm.

15 I also do animal welfare and organic

16 inspections. I'm the Chair of the Livestock

17 Committee and Vice Chair of the Board.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Tom Chapman. I work for

19 Clif Bar & Company. This is my third year on the

20 Board. And I currently chair it.

21 DR. SEITZ: Dan Seitz. This is my

22 second year on the Board. I fill a
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1 Consumer/Public Interest seat. And I'm also the

2 Executive Director for the Council on

3 Naturopathic Medical Education.

4 MR. RICE: Scott Rice with the WSDA,

5 or Washington State Department of Ag, Organic

6 Program. I sit in the Certifier seat. And this

7 is my second year.

8 MS. BAIRD: Sue Baird. I am from

9 Missouri. And I represent Public

10 Interest/Special Interest groups. I am on the

11 Crops Committee and currently Vice President --

12 Vice Chair of the Livestock Committee.

13 MS. BEHAR: I'm Harriet Behar. I'm

14 from Wisconsin. I'm a certified organic grower. 

15 I'm the Chair of the Materials Committee. And

16 this is my second year.

17 MS. OAKLEY: I'm Emily Oakley. And I

18 have Three Springs Farm in Northeastern Oklahoma. 

19 It's a full time job for me. And it's a two20 person operation. And I sit in one of the

21 Farmers seats.

22 DR. THICKE: Francis Thicke. Organic
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1 dairy and crop farmer from Iowa. I sit in the

2 Environmentalist seat and then chair the Crops

3 Subcommittee.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next we

5 have the Secretary's Report. Secretary Jesse

6 Buie, can you report?

7 MR. BUIE: Mr. Chair, the minutes of

8 the April 2017 Biannual Public Meeting has been

9 distributed behind the reference tab in the

10 binder. Are there any corrections or comments?

11 (No audible response.)

12 MR. BUIE: Mr. Chair?

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Seeing none, without

14 objection we'll approve the report by consensus.

15 (No audible response.)

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Seeing no objection, the

17 report is approved. We'll now move back to

18 Jennie for the NOP Report and the Peer Review

19 update.

20 Jennie, you have three minutes.

21 (Laughter.)

22 DR. TUCKER: I want to start my timer
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1 just so I leave enough time for questions here. 

2 So, okay.

3 Okay. So good morning everyone. I am

4 very pleased to be here today. Again, my name is

5 Jennie Tucker. I am the Associate Deputy

6 Administrator of the National Organic Program.

7 I have been there for six years. I

8 love what I do. I am committed to the success of

9 the organic community. And I am pleased to share

10 this update on behalf of the Agricultural

11 Marketing Service. 

12 So here's an overview of what I am

13 going to talk about today. First we're going to

14 do some welcomes and thanks.

15 I'm going to give you a transition

16 update. I'm going to talk a bit about the Sunset

17 2017 Final Rule. Then we're going to turn to

18 enforcement and imports.

19 And an integrity update, so organic

20 integrity database update. I'm going to give you

21 an overview of the -- of the Office of Inspector

22 General's Report that came out in the last couple
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1 of months here.

2 And then we'll do a peer review of

3 NOP. So, an update on what ANSI found during

4 their 2017 Peer Review.

5 And then we will close. And I want to

6 leave time for questions from the Board.

7 So first, I just want to welcome

8 everyone to Jacksonville. And I want to thank

9 the 15 members of the NOSB who sit up here today.

10 These volunteers devote enormous

11 amounts of time to represent the interests of the

12 organic community. They've read your comments. 

13 They're going to listen to you this week. And

14 they will continue to serve you in the months

15 ahead.

16 All of us thank you for your

17 dedication. Can we give them a round of

18 applause, please?

19 (Applause.)

20 DR. TUCKER: I also want to thank the

21 hundreds of people who are participating in some

22 way during this meeting. So I want to take a
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1 look at that engagement.

2 We got more than two thousand written

3 public comments before this meeting. So that's a

4 lot of folks who took the time to submit a

5 written comment online. So we thank them all.

6 Fifty-two people provided oral

7 comments on two separate webinars. There were a

8 total of 165 webinar attendees. And then we have

9 93 people signed up to speak in Jacksonville.

10 So, a truly committed community

11 helping to move very, very important work

12 forward. So thank you all.

13 I also want to extend a welcome and

14 thanks from USDA leadership. And so we have a

15 Secretary, Sonny Perdue.

16 We have a Deputy Secretary, Steve

17 Censky. We have Former Acting Undersecretary of

18 Marketing and Regulatory Programs. His name is

19 Kevin Shea.

20 And I list him because Kevin literally

21 stopped being Acting yesterday when the new

22 Undersecretary, Greg Ibach, was sworn in in
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1 Omaha.

2 So, again today, starting this

3 morning, we have an Undersecretary of Marketing

4 and Regulatory Programs, Greg Ibach. Which

5 again, just sworn in yesterday.

6 And then we have Acting AMS

7 Administrator Bruce Summers. Okay.

8 And so for those who are less familiar

9 with the organizational structure, I'll quickly

10 mention how all of these fit together. The NOP

11 is part of a larger agency called the

12 Agricultural Marketing Service.

13 AMS is in turn part of a larger

14 mission area called Marketing and Regulatory

15 Programs. The Undersecretary of MRP reports up

16 to USDA and the Secretary.

17 So, what's real important here is we

18 are still very, very much in a transition period. 

19 Okay, we've just gotten our Undersecretary

20 literally yesterday.

21 So we've had a lot of people up and

22 down the chain in acting roles. We continue to
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1 have an Acting Administrator.

2 So the next step here would be the

3 appointment of an Administrator that follows the

4 Undersecretary. Okay? So that's still in very

5 much transition mode here.

6 So, it is an honor to represent these

7 folks here today. And they all do send their

8 welcomes.

9 Okay. Next I want to welcome our new

10 Organic Program Acting Deputy Administrator. So,

11 Dr. Ruihong Guo. Ruihong is going to serve in

12 this temporary role for the next several months

13 as the recruiting process for a permanent Deputy

14 Administrator is underway.

15 So for the past several years, Ruihong

16 has served as the Deputy Administrator of the AMS

17 Science and Technology Program. She's also held

18 a variety of other leadership positions within

19 AMS, including serving as the Associate

20 Administrator, and serving in a number of NOP

21 leadership positions.

22 So, Ruihong moved into her new office
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1 yesterday. Okay? And we're really, really

2 pleased to have her with us in a leadership role.

3 For those who don't know Ruihong, here

4 are a couple of pictures. We had a really nice

5 welcome meet and greet with her. And so here she

6 is with some of our NOP managers.

7 Hello? There we go.

8 Okay. And finally a hello from Team

9 NOP. So we currently have 36 staff members. And

10 here's our most recent team picture from last

11 month.

12 I just wanted to give you a sense of

13 who's on the other end of that call or email. We

14 have five of those team members here now.

15 So, I'd like to recognize and thank

16 them for their hard work. So I've got Dr. Paul

17 Lewis on my left here, our Standards Division

18 Director.

19 Lisa Brines, our National List

20 Manager. Devon Pattillo, our Materials

21 Specialists, and oh, so much more. And of course

22 our Advisory Board Specialist, Michelle
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1 Arsenault.

2 And so deepest thanks to all of you.

3 (Applause.)

4 DR. TUCKER: Yeah. These folks invest

5 a tremendous amount of time for the Board. And

6 it's a wonderful, wonderful team.

7 I'd also like to introduce David

8 Glasgow. Who is with the AMS Public Affairs

9 Office. So David's back there. Hi, David. 

10 Thanks for being here with us.

11 Can we just -- yeah. Thank you.

12 Okay. I would like to now turn to the

13 2017 Sunset Review Final Rule. So, this rule was

14 published in July 2017.

15 It removed eight substances from the

16 National List. And the rule also renewed three

17 substances.

18 The NOSB had recommended that those

19 three be removed. So we wanted to explain our

20 process here.

21 So the organic community has many

22 opportunities to comment on proposed changes to
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1 the National List. The public comment process

2 happens at two NOSB meetings and during USDA's

3 proposed rule public comment process.

4 Both forums, the NOSB meetings and the

5 rulemaking process, are important sources of

6 feedback. The final rule to re-list these three

7 substances were the result of public comments

8 during rulemaking.

9 Which showed that these three

10 substances remain essential ingredients for

11 organic handling. And alternatives are not yet

12 available in the quantity, quality, or form

13 needed.

14 These comments were new. Rulemaking

15 is an important part of the National List

16 management process. And the administration chose

17 to heed those public comments about those three

18 substances.

19 A key take home here is that for all

20 interested folks to participate at all phases of

21 the process. If you are using substances being

22 considered for removal by the Board, let them
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1 know your views.

2 If you commented before Board

3 meetings, also comment when proposed rules are

4 published. Very important. Okay?

5 We're also developing rulemaking to

6 change the National List based on petitions and

7 recommendations from the National -- from the

8 National Organics Standards Board.

9 So this proposed rule will address

10 recommendations that expand from 2000 to 2016. 

11 The proposed rule will include such substances as

12 zinc sulfate, acidified sodium -- oh boy,

13 acidified sodium chlorite.

14 I can't read my own handwriting there. 

15 Sorry. Methionine and hydrochloric acid. And so

16 that rule is entering the clearance process.

17 Okay. Going to move onto an

18 enforcement update and an imports update. And

19 those are sort of hand in hand. They have been

20 key areas of focus for us this year.

21 Enforcement and protecting organic

22 imports are key Administration priorities. This
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1 summer AMS asked the NOSB to add the topic of

2 imports to the Board's work agenda.

3 To support this work, later this

4 morning, there's going to be an imports panel. 

5 We're going to get multiple perspectives on this

6 topic from the federal side.

7 And so let's take a look at some

8 numbers. Here are some key figures to summarize

9 our compliance and enforcement work in fiscal

10 year '17, which ended at the end of September.

11 First, I want to highlight the current

12 count of certified operations. As of last week

13 there were a total of 39,035 certified operations

14 in the organic integrity database.

15 That's almost two thousand more than

16 we reported in January of 2017. It really

17 demonstrates the continued growth of the

18 industry.

19 And as a result, the enforcement

20 numbers really need to be considered within that

21 context. So the vast majority of organic

22 operations are in good standing under the
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1 regulations.

2 Last year there were 379 incoming

3 complaints. And that's a little lower than in

4 past years.

5 We found that a lot of our complaints

6 are really questions. So we're providing more

7 information in response to those questions.

8 Once we've answered the question,

9 often the people contacting us are satisfied. 

10 They're happy. This has two benefits.

11 It provides better customer service,

12 because we're helping people right up front get

13 their questions answered. And it also allows our

14 compliance and enforcement staff to better focus

15 their efforts on the cases that are truly

16 complaints with evidence about someone who may be

17 breaking the rules.

18 We also completed 462 complaint

19 reviews and investigations. That's a record for

20 us.

21 And we attribute it to process

22 improvements in the Compliance and Enforcement
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1 Division. The team is focusing more on evidence

2 collection and analysis with increased

3 consistency between specialists.

4 During the year we levied $187,500 in

5 civil penalties. These mainly came from

6 uncertified operations who had been representing

7 products as organic.

8 Interestingly, and this does continue

9 a trend, of the complaints last year, 75 percent

10 were about uncertified operations. So the

11 majority of the complaints that we review and

12 investigate, are of uncertified operations

13 representing themselves as organic.

14 A good part of our civil penalties are

15 for those uncertified operations. And also for

16 suspended operations who continue to represent

17 themselves as organic after being suspended.

18 Finally, the Organic Integrity

19 Database tells us that approximately 311

20 operations were newly suspended or revoked in FY

21 2017. That includes actions taken both by the

22 NOP and by certifiers.
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1 We've also made significant

2 advancements this year in data postings on the

3 AMS website. So this summer, we posted a new

4 searchable spreadsheet of fraudulent

5 certificates, which makes it much easier for the

6 trade to search and track over time.

7 We are also now posting enforcement

8 actions more frequently than in the past. You

9 can access appeal decisions, NOP suspensions and

10 revocations, and NOP settlement agreements

11 online.

12 So we get lots of questions, for

13 example, about enforcement actions taken in the

14 import investigations. Keeping an eye on this

15 website will keep you informed about appeals and

16 final actions that have been posted.

17 These are in addition to actions taken

18 by certifiers. As the investigations proceed, as

19 additional enforcement actions are taken, they're

20 posted here.

21 We also have a new link on that web

22 page where you can quickly pull up the list of
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1 suspended and revoked operations in the Organic

2 Integrity Database.

3 Okay. Let's turn to imports. First,

4 some context.

5 The organic industry has been

6 experiencing tremendous growth over the last

7 several years. Consumers continue to choose

8 organic products.

9 This rapid growth has resulted in

10 dramatically increased supply chain complexity. 

11 We need everyone in the organic control system to

12 act on the implication of these changes.

13 The organic control system, which

14 operates worldwide, includes organic standards,

15 inspections and auditing of organic farmers and

16 handlers, accreditation of certifiers, an

17 enforcement process that includes civil

18 penalties, suspensions and revocations.

19 This control system requires all

20 actors at all levels to protect organic

21 integrity. NOP sets standards, accredits and

22 oversees certifiers and enforces.
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1 Certifiers complete certification

2 actions and inspections, and investigate

3 complaints. And need to be doing careful trace

4 back and mass balance audits in that process.

5 Processors and buyers of products need

6 to be doing their due diligence in making sure

7 the products they are receiving are compliant. 

8 It takes all of us in the system to maintain

9 organic integrity within a rapidly growing and

10 increasingly complex industry.

11 So, here are some of the actions AMS

12 has been taking over the past several months. 

13 We've issued proposed and final revocations of

14 operations.

15 We've issued focused directives to

16 certifiers working in Eastern European countries

17 of interest. Requiring increased inspections and

18 sampling and testing of specific commodities

19 coming out of the region.

20 We have conducted compliance and

21 satellite audits of certifiers operating in what

22 have emerged as high-risk regions. Satellite
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1 offices are what we call certifier branch and

2 regional offices.

3 And, we have partnered with other

4 federal agencies for enforcement. For example,

5 the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service,

6 APHIS, and Customs and Border Protection, CBP,

7 were recently extremely helpful in ensuring some

8 noncompliant grains were stopped before entering

9 the U.S.

10 Like many federal enforcement

11 agencies, we're not always able to talk about our

12 successes. There are some very sophisticated bad

13 actors out there.

14 They have deep knowledge of how the

15 system works. And they're using that knowledge

16 to exploit the control system.

17 We're taking action. And these

18 actions continue to be a high priority across the

19 program.

20 This summer, we also increased our

21 training with certifiers and handlers on how to

22 maintain organic integrity across complex supply
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1 chains. We've done live webinars for handlers,

2 separate training with certifiers.

3 And we've posted training on the AMS

4 YouTube site for handlers and certifiers. These

5 posted trainings have gotten thousands of views

6 since posting this summer.

7 In August we also posted an oversight

8 of organic import summary of actions, reporting

9 on the work that's been done. We'll continue to

10 deepen our training this year with imports being

11 one of the many focus areas at our in-person

12 certifier training this winter.

13 As another action, last week we

14 published a new interim instruction on organic

15 imports. It's available in the NOP handbook

16 online.

17 The instruction explains current

18 regulatory requirements for certifiers overseeing

19 organic products imported into the United States. 

20 It also recommends best practices and provides

21 examples of actions that certifiers can take to

22 comply with the existing regulations.
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1 The instruction covers the

2 certification requirements and documentation

3 needed to import organic products into the U.S. 

4 It also covers certifier responsibilities in

5 reviewing or issuing import related documents.

6 The document specifically emphasizes

7 requirements for organic system plans, audit

8 trail record keeping, and conducting thorough

9 onsite inspections. The instruction also

10 reiterates that foreign operations are subject to

11 the same requirements as U.S. operations.

12 As we noted before, it takes all of us

13 working in the organic control system to protect

14 its integrity. This instruction provides best

15 practices for certifiers on how to do that.

16 The instruction is open for comment

17 until December 26. So we welcome your feedback.

18 Okay. So, as I shared earlier, the

19 Secretary supports our enforcement initiatives. 

20 We're continuing our investigations of fraudulent

21 imports at the certifier level, at the operation

22 level, and when we receive evidence of
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1 potentially fraudulent shipments.

2 We're following up on certifier

3 directives, continuing to conduct certifier

4 audits, and we're considering the feasibility of

5 increased compliance audits in high risk regions. 

6 We've engaged a number of people in different

7 federal partner agencies.

8 We'll talk more about that later in

9 the presentation. We're also exploring options

10 for standards related initiatives as well.

11 We've asked for the NOSB support in

12 our work on imports. Again, we're having a panel

13 later this morning.

14 We'll continue to support NOSB at the

15 committee level. We're advancing specific

16 technology initiatives, which I'll touch on

17 further in a bit.

18 In short, we're working on -- in short

19 about the technology initiatives, we're working

20 on export certificates to support U.S. producers. 

21 We're exploring ways to communicate

22 electronically with CBP, again Customs and Border
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1 Protection.

2 We're maximizing the benefits of the

3 Organic Integrity Database. And we're developing

4 a concept of operations for super -- future

5 system work.

6 We're also planning for our winter

7 training with certifiers. Where again, imports

8 will be a key topic.

9 To close this section, I want to

10 emphasize that all organic enforcement and

11 oversight rests on three core pillars, the

12 Organic Foods Production Act, the USDA Organic

13 Regulations, and evidence that can stand up in a

14 court of law.

15 That's the ball game for all NOP

16 enforcement. We hear people say, you know, this

17 certifier must be noncompliant, because another

18 government changed its accreditation status. 

19 This dairy must be out of compliance based on

20 this nutrient test.

21 We must have sources of evidence that

22 are legally defensible. We do have equivalency
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1 agreements that include a mutual commitment to

2 enforcement.

3 However, enforcement actions

4 themselves are not reciprocal. It's our

5 regulations that dictate the compliance of any

6 specific certifier.

7 We do require residue testing. 

8 However, nutrient tests are not currently part of

9 the regulations.

10 We have to govern and enforce based on

11 the regulations and based on evidence against

12 those regulations. When we stand before an

13 administrative law judge, that's all that

14 matters.

15 We enforce based on the law. And

16 we'll continue to do so.

17 Now let's turn to a different topic. 

18 The Organic Integrity Database. I'll open this

19 by highlighting our certified farms and

20 businesses in Jacksonville.

21 So there are eight listings for

22 Jacksonville. And 453 in Florida overall. You
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1 can learn more about all of these businesses at

2 the Organic Integrity Database.

3 The Farm Bill funding for technology

4 modernization was five million dollars from 2014

5 to 2018. Our first public release was in

6 September 2015.

7 We launched release seven in September

8 2017. The system does more than we thought

9 possible when we wrote our initial needs

10 assessment in 2013.

11 Now we have a full year remaining to

12 make sure everything is sustainable for the long

13 term. This is officially called operations and

14 maintenance.

15 This allows us to really stabilize the

16 system, fix bugs, and continue to refine reports

17 and digital connections as needed. We were

18 successful with this system in part because of a

19 fabulous user group of certifiers.

20 They provided us input throughout the

21 process. And continue to provide regular

22 feedback. To those of you here today, I'm
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1 really, really grateful for your engagement over

2 the last few years.

3 I also want to thank the integrity

4 team. This has been an extraordinary team to

5 work with. The developers really, really embrace

6 their work with us.

7 Their willingness to get into the

8 details on certification statuses and product

9 taxonomies, truly impressive. And we've been

10 really lucky to work with them.

11 Now it's all about the data. 

12 Integrity has been a learning curve for

13 certifiers and us. And as certifier staff

14 change, they're learning the system through a

15 whole new lens.

16 So new technologies are driving

17 efficiency and better customer service throughout

18 the organic control system. As we move into the

19 long term, data quantity and quality will drive

20 our success.

21 Here are some examples of where we'd

22 really like to see more reporting for several
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1 reasons. So, reporting of acreage. This is

2 absolutely critical to enforcement and

3 traceability.

4 We want to see more reporting of

5 business types. For example, slaughterhouses and

6 dairies. This information helps us understand

7 the market and helps connect buyers and sellers.

8 Adoption of the product taxonomy. 

9 Better structured data is vital to provide

10 accurate and complete reports and to track trends

11 over time.

12 For example, we want to keep learning

13 how much grain acreage is growing over time in

14 different places. We need structured data to

15 answer those questions.

16 Finally, we recently launched a

17 Certifier Data Quality Dashboard that certifiers

18 can see to help them assess their own data

19 quality. This dashboard was built to help us

20 celebrate certifiers who are investing in data

21 quality and to motivate other certifiers to

22 improve where needed.
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1 It matters to farms and businesses if

2 their data are up to date in integrity. The

3 dashboard helps certifiers see where they can

4 meet that need.

5 I also want to highlight one

6 relatively new feature in integrity that we've

7 built out and want folks to be aware of. In

8 September 2016, we launched an Optional Federal

9 Certificate Module. 

10 And certificates can be -- can be

11 generated by certifiers within the database. And

12 then are available on the integrity website to

13 anyone for free.

14 I want to say congratulations to the

15 two certifiers that are already using integrity

16 to generate operation certificates. LETIS and

17 the Rhode Island Department of Environmental

18 Management.

19 Certifiers can customize the

20 certificate addenda statement, add a list of

21 certified products, they can review draft

22 certificates before publishing, and generate
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1 batch downloads of certificates for their

2 records. So what's the benefit of that?

3 It reduces the cost to confirm

4 certification status. The certificate includes

5 the USDA website address and a QR code. So

6 anyone with a certificate can confirm its

7 authenticity.

8 Another benefit is that it can reduce

9 the time organic handlers and processors spend

10 verifying the supply chain. Because it makes all

11 the certificates that are available for

12 operations in their search results.

13 So if a buyer wants to buy a certain

14 commodity from producers in a certain U.S. state,

15 if the certifier has used the product taxonomy

16 and the integrity certificate, the buyer could

17 access that set of producers and their

18 certificates from integrity.

19 If you're a certifier, we encourage

20 you to look at this capability. We really worked

21 hard to establish it as an option for you.

22 If you're a certified operation and
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1 want an integrity certificate, consider reaching

2 out to your certifier to express that interest.

3 Next steps. As mentioned, we're

4 continuing to emphasize data quantity and quality

5 with certifiers using the Data Quality Dashboard

6 as a new guide.

7 We're also able to use some of the

8 Farm Bill investment to invest in technology to

9 make our accreditation management processes and

10 work flows more efficient.

11 To that end, at the start of last

12 year, we purchased software to support the work. 

13 The system is called ACCREDIT.

14 We're also looking ahead at

15 international activities. I'll be speaking about

16 that later this morning during the imports panel.

17 We're working on projects involving

18 both import and export certificates. And

19 developing concepts for future technologies to

20 support that work.

21 Okay. I'm going to turn to the Office

22 of Inspector General Report. So this is the
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1 first big Acronym that I'll keep on repeating,

2 OIG, Office of Inspector General, OIG.

3 This report was published in 2017. It

4 is available online. And includes the audit

5 process, findings, and AMS's response.

6 So the OIG conducts independent audits

7 and investigations of the Department programs and

8 operations. OIG audits happen all the time.

9 They are an important part of the

10 Department's work to enhance customer service and

11 efficiencies. Previous NOP audits have helped

12 the program tremendously. And this one will as

13 well.

14 So here are some examples. There were

15 program-wide audits in 2005 and 2010. There were

16 National List audits in 2012. That was a no

17 findings audit.

18 And then there were organic and milk

19 audits in 2012 and 2013. It was actually one of

20 the organic milk audits that led -- that drove us

21 to complete the needs assessment that led to the

22 Organic Integrity Database.
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1 So audits led to new successes. So,

2 the goal of the audit was to evaluate AMS

3 controls over the approval and oversight of NOP's

4 agreements for international trade and the

5 imports of organic products.

6 There were four OIG findings. AMS's

7 process for determining equivalency between the

8 U.S. organic regulations and foreign countries'

9 standards were not fully transparent.

10 Number two. Organic import documents

11 were not verified at U.S. ports of entry.

12 Number three. Controls over organic

13 products fumigated at U.S. ports of entry were

14 inadequate.

15 And number four. Onsite audits for

16 existing agreements were not conducted in a

17 timely manner because AMS has no established

18 requirements for frequency.

19 Now across these four findings were

20 nine recommendations. And AMS proposed responses

21 to each of those recommendations.

22 It's those recommendations and
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1 responses I'm going to talk through next. So

2 here's the first. And this is the one that

3 related to transparency.

4 Organic standards around the world are

5 generally similar, but not identical. When the

6 U.S. negotiates with another country for

7 equivalency, it compares the USDA organic

8 regulations to the other country's regulations.

9 The OIG recommended that AMS

10 publically share the differences found in that

11 comparison. So AMS has accepted that

12 recommendation and will implement it.

13 Now to understand the next three OIG

14 recommendations and AMS responses, it's useful to

15 pause to define some terms. And we're going to

16 get into some acronyms here for folks who want to

17 take some notes.

18 First, there's the NOP import

19 certificate. Right now it's required for

20 equivalence agreements like the one we have with

21 the European Union, EU.

22 An NOP import certificate must
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1 accompany every shipment of EU organic product

2 entering the United States. The EU certifier

3 approves the NOP import certificate to verify

4 that the product entering the U.S. is organic.

5 Import certificates are not currently

6 required for organic products imported from

7 countries that don't have equivalency agreements

8 with the U.S. Those products must be certified.

9 Next, Customs and Border Protection,

10 that's CBP, Customs and Border Protection, has a

11 lot of authority at the border that the U.S. --

12 that the NOP does not.

13 CBP has a system, here's another

14 acronym, called ACE. It actually stands for

15 automated commercial environment. Which is why

16 really all you have to remember is ACE. Okay?

17 That process, ACE processes import

18 documents for products entering the United

19 States. So all sorts of products entering the

20 United States get entered into the system ACE.

21 Right now the ACE system does not hold

22 organic import certificates. Here's where a new
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1 term comes in, called a message set.

2 A message set is what allows the ACE

3 system to accept and store an electronic version

4 of the NOP certificate in addition to all the

5 other required shipment information.

6 So, in this figure, the form on the

7 left undergoes a technology transformation to

8 become the message set or data stream on the

9 right that ACE can work with. These terms are

10 really important in understanding the next three

11 recommendations.

12 So, we're moving onto the first of

13 three recommendations related to import

14 verification. So, CBP is the nation's largest

15 law enforcement agency.

16 It has special authorities at the U.S.

17 ports of entry. NOP enforces organic laws but

18 has no authority at ports of entry.

19 Certifiers confirm organic compliance

20 on both sides of the border. But we don't have a

21 presence at the border itself.

22 The OIG recommended that AMS and CBP
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1 create an official partnership so AMS can use CBP

2 staff to check organic import certificates and

3 make sure they are valid for organic products

4 entering the U.S. from equivalency countries.

5 So AMS supports expanding the MOU with

6 CBP. AMS already has an agency level MOU,

7 Memorandum of Understanding. So we support

8 expanding that.

9 We do know that CBP officials right

10 now have limited capacity and no current

11 authority to review organic imports or NOP import

12 certificates. So we're going to develop a report

13 outlining how AMS and CBP could collaborate.

14 Next, as I mentioned before, ACE is a

15 system for tracking products coming into the U.S. 

16 The OIG recommended that AMS work with CBP to add

17 instructions to ACE to explain what CBP officials

18 need to look at on import certificates to make

19 sure they're valid, and what to do if they

20 suspect the paperwork or product is not truly --

21 organic.

22 So AMS accepted that recommendation. 
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1 NOP import certificates right now are only

2 required from the EU, Switzerland, Korea, and

3 Japan.

4 So AMS is requesting access to

5 additional areas of ACE. And we are submitting

6 an organic message set proposal to CBP. 

7 Remember, the message set is what allows the ACE

8 system to generate the import certificate.

9 Okay. Next, for this item the OIG

10 recommended that AMS develop a plan to ensure

11 that incoming organic certificates that we've

12 been talking about are actually valid when

13 organic produce comes to U.S. ports of entry.

14 The OIG recommended that the system

15 also identify fraudulent certificates and gather

16 data on organic products entering the U.S. So

17 AMS accepted that recommendation.

18 We'll prepare a needs assessment for

19 an organic verification system that validates

20 organic import certificates, identifies

21 fraudulent certificates, and captures data. This

22 needs assessment would create a baseline for
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1 future technology development work.

2 Let's do another background slide for

3 context about the OIG recommendations related to

4 fumigation. So, for this recommendation, we're

5 going to talk about another key federal agency,

6 one of our partners, again, another acronym,

7 APHIS, part of USDA.

8 So, we're going to talk about them and

9 CBP. So for those of you new to this discussion,

10 here's what happens at a port.

11 So let's say a fruit shipment arrives

12 in Florida. APHIS conducts a risk-based

13 inspection of the container.

14 If APHIS finds -- so let's say APHIS

15 finds a pest that could harm Florida orchards. 

16 The shipment must be treated or fumigated to

17 enter Florida.

18 The importer is notified of the

19 requirement. And the organic importer then has

20 two options.

21 They can accept fumigation, selling

22 the fruit, but not as organic. Or they can re-
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1 export the shipment to a place where the pest

2 isn't a risk.

3 Now this is happening already. 

4 Certified organic importers know that they can't

5 sell products that have been fumigated with

6 prohibited substances as organic.

7 If they hear that one has, those are

8 their two options. They can sell the fruit, but

9 it can't be labeled as organic. Or they can re10 export the shipment.

11 So, with that background, let's turn

12 to the three OIG recommendations on fumigation. 

13 OIG recommended that AMS partner with APHIS so

14 whenever organic imports are fumigated, AMS is

15 notified.

16 Once imported organic products are

17 fumigated, they can't be sold as organic. Again,

18 because they're treated with a prohibited

19 substance.

20 So, in January of this year, AMS and

21 APHIS executed an MOU to document collaborative

22 efforts to identify imported organic shipments of
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1 products that had been treated or are treated as

2 a condition of entry.

3 Okay. Now we're back to ACE again. 

4 So, remember ACE is the system that CBP has to

5 track all the incoming products to the U.S.

6 OIG recommended that AMS work with CBP

7 to update the ACE database so it tells APHIS

8 officials when organic imported products are

9 fumigated for pests. And, gives them

10 instructions for what to do next to prevent that

11 product from being sold as organic.

12 So, we need to know what is happening. 

13 And we need to tell them what to do next.

14 For this next item, OIG recommended

15 that AMS develop a system with procedures for

16 tracking organic products that are fumigated so

17 the fumigated products are not sold as organic. 

18 This information could be shared with the organic

19 community to protect integrity.

20 So the last recommendation was about

21 telling AMS and, and us telling APHIS what to do

22 next. This recommendation relates to how we
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1 track all this and notify the trade.

2 So AMS and APHIS are establishing

3 procedures to notify importers and certifiers

4 when organic products are treated and can no

5 longer be sold, labeled, or represented as

6 organic.

7 Okay. Now we're turning to the final

8 OIG finding on timely audits.

9 First, OIG recommended that AMS track

10 information about onsite audits for equivalency

11 or recognition agreements. This would show AMS

12 is doing audits in a timely fashion, ideally

13 every two years as OIG recommends.

14 Earlier I told you about the ACCREDIT

15 system which we're using to track certifier

16 audits. AMS plans to also use that system to

17 track and report on our reviews of trading

18 partners.

19 Finally, and this is the ninth

20 recommendation. OIG recommended that AMS update

21 its procedures to specify that equivalency or

22 recognition audits should be conducted every two
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1 years.

2 Right now there is no specific time

3 frame for equivalency audits. Only recognition

4 agreements. We accepted that recommendation and

5 will revise the procedure.

6 Okay. To close this section, AMS

7 accepted all the OIG's findings and responded to

8 all of its recommendations. And our actions will

9 be in place by July 2018.

10 OIG reports have helped AMS shape NOP

11 into the program that we are today. And we thank

12 them for their work and feedback.

13 On a personal note, I started working

14 with NOP while the -- when the program was

15 implementing the findings from the 2010 audit. 

16 When I started as Associate Deputy Administrator,

17 it was very clear how much that audit was serving

18 as a critical roadmap for moving ahead.

19 The program is better because of it.

20 This audit reaffirmed the actions that we've

21 already started to protect the integrity of

22 organic imports.
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1 AMS is committed to that work ahead. 

2 We're going to be better because of this report

3 and the actions that we've committed to here.

4 Final section. I am now going to go

5 through the ANSI Peer Review of the National

6 Organic Program.

7 Okay. So the ANSI Peer Review in

8 2017, again, it was conducted by the American

9 National Standard Institute, or ANSI, under

10 contract.

11 It was done by a panel of three

12 independent auditors. The process was driven by

13 an NOSB recommendation, a memo to the Board in

14 November 2014, an NOP 1031, which is in the NOP

15 handbook, called peer review of NOP

16 accreditation.

17 So peer reviews are a vital component

18 of our continuous improvement. This was our

19 second year working with ANSI. And I'm really

20 impressed with their level of precision and

21 detail in reviewing our documents and procedures.

22 These folks really dive into the
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1 specifics. They know what our procedures say. 

2 They see what we do and how we do it. And they

3 note discrepancies at a very granular level.

4 So the goal of the peer review is to

5 determine whether NOP actions align with our own

6 procedures and with ISO/IEC 17011. Which is a

7 quality standard.

8 So the context for the peer review is

9 for a small program serving a growing industry. 

10 We have strong and robust accreditation

11 procedures.

12 We have public and transparent

13 standards. We have a skilled pool of auditors

14 who receive ongoing training. And we provide

15 annual training and webinars to certifiers.

16 So, here's an overview of ANSI

17 findings. Overall, NOP is following its

18 procedures.

19 There were no major nonconformances

20 related to accreditation decisions. The ANSI

21 audit identified opportunities for NOP to improve

22 record keeping and clarify procedures.
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1 So, let's go through the ANSI findings

2 related to procedures. NOP corrective actions

3 are not tracked as described in NOP 1020.

4 So, this was our corrective action

5 procedure. NOP needs to ensure the timely

6 implementation of corrective actions before the

7 next audit.

8 NOP does not have a procedure for

9 determining the number and location of certifier

10 satellite office audits. And NOP assessments of

11 certifiers occur every two to two and a half

12 years, not every one to two years as recommended

13 in ISO 17011.

14 Okay. So, here are our corrective

15 actions related to procedures. We have revised

16 our procedures to monitor peer review corrective

17 actions on our operating plan.

18 So, NOP 1020, which is the document

19 that ANSI referenced, was the document we used to

20 track corrective actions from peer reviews,

21 internal audits and management reviews.

22 We found that it just became one more
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1 document to try and struggle with. Which was not

2 helpful.

3 Instead, we now correct all -- track

4 all corrective actions through our program-wide

5 operating plan. Which is helping build those

6 actions into our daily work better.

7 The launch of ACCREDIT and additional

8 staff will help accreditation time line

9 management and satellite office tracking.

10 One action that we think would

11 significantly help in satellite office management

12 would be to require that all satellite offices

13 that are currently under separate management be

14 accredited as separate entities. So, we're

15 currently exploring that option.

16 So, more generally, NOP continues to

17 improve its record management. We have a

18 dedicated quality manager.

19 We're improving our processes and

20 training. And we're updating and retiring

21 procedures that we no longer use, because they're

22 built into another process.
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1 Now on the final item, a corrective

2 action related to procedures, our regulations

3 require that accreditation renewals occur every

4 five years. And midterm audits occur every two

5 to three years.

6 NOP is going to review its

7 accreditation policies and procedures to explore

8 options for more frequent assessments. We don't

9 currently have resources to perform onsite

10 assessments every one to two years according to

11 ISO 17011 recommendations.

12 We are reviewing how we could use the

13 annual report process from certifiers for more

14 frequent follow ups.

15 Here are ANSI's findings related to

16 records. NOP didn't complete the review section

17 of accreditation application documents.

18 There were some instances of incorrect

19 versions or incomplete records. So, for example,

20 a date was missing or a signature was missing.

21 NOP accreditation certificates do not

22 contain the certifier's full address, and do not
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1 indicate the current version of 7 CFR, part 205. 

2 And there was one isolated instance of a date

3 discrepancy.

4 So as I mentioned before, ANSI reviews

5 are very detailed and precise. And so these

6 findings are very specific.

7 So, here are corrective actions

8 related to records. We do conduct robust

9 certifier audits of new applicants, midterms and

10 renewals.

11 In fact, AIA, the division that's

12 responsible for that, Accreditation of

13 International Activities, they conducted 60

14 audits last year. Including midterms, renewals,

15 desk audits, witness audits, peer reviews, and

16 recognition audits.

17 These activities take significant

18 amounts of time. So for those new to the

19 process, take a look at NOP 2000 and 2005 in the

20 public handbook.

21 These walk through the detailed

22 processes that our auditors use as well as their
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1 checklist.

2 We are refining our application

3 processing approach. So when ANSI found that we

4 had not completed the review section of an

5 existing form, that's because that information is

6 now stored elsewhere. It's in a different form.

7 So, it's not that we're not doing it. 

8 It's that we're doing it in a different place

9 than our procedure says we are doing it.

10 So we need to update our procedure to

11 report accurately where all of these activities

12 are happening across this robust process.

13 We have instructed auditors about

14 required signatures on certain forms. We will

15 continue to train on this.

16 We're going to revise our

17 accreditation certificate template to reference

18 the current regulations and include the

19 certifier's complete address. And we'll review

20 our procedures related to accreditation

21 certificate issue dates.

22 So, in closing, peer reviews are a
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1 vital part of our quality system. The 2018 Peer

2 Review, which will also be with ANSI, will start

3 in the spring.

4 In the meantime, we're going to post

5 the ANSI report and our NOP corrective actions. 

6 We're going to continue to advance our records

7 management practices, refine our accreditation

8 processes, continue to launch technology aids,

9 and conduct regular training for auditors and

10 certifiers.

11 And so we pass along a big thank you

12 to ANSI and the audit team.

13 And that's it. I'm going to close by

14 again thanking you all for being here. And for

15 all the work you're doing to protect organic

16 integrity around the world.

17 I am now happy to take some questions

18 from the Board.

19 (Applause.)

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you Jenny. You

21 had some big shoes to fill there for Miles' usual

22 update. And you filled them well. So thank you
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1 very much.

2 I will now open it up to questions

3 from the Board. Do we have any questions? I see

4 Harriet.

5 MS. BEHAR: I have a few questions. 

6 But, maybe I'll do just one or two and then go

7 around to other and then you can come back to me.

8 So just based on the report that you

9 just gave us, thank you, Jenny, for being so

10 detailed and comprehensive.

11 The fumigation system that you have

12 now that's dealing with notifying the certifiers

13 of what's been fumigated, that came in as organic

14 but should no longer be sold as organic, I'm

15 wondering if that could also be somehow, be put

16 up on the website?

17 Because I think the buyers need to

18 know. Many times this -- notifying the

19 certifier, it might be a little late for the

20 buyer to realize that they are bringing in a

21 product that maybe didn't -- no longer had the

22 organic integrity that it should have.
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1 So, I'm just wondering about posting

2 that. And then the second, on the -- I'm

3 wondering about at imports -- oh --

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Let's do one question at

5 a time. And I'll go back to you.

6 MS. BEHAR: Okay.

7 DR. TUCKER: Thank you. I think the

8 work we're going to do over the next several

9 months will, I think, identify both components.

10 It's how does everybody inform each

11 other? So certifiers and also the trade.

12 So, how do you get information out of

13 the systems, transmit it to the right people in a

14 timely manner, alert the trade to anything that

15 might be coming in that should not be sold as

16 organic?

17 That will all be part of sort of the

18 system and concept of operations that we work on

19 in the next several months. So, agree that

20 that's very important.

21 MS. BEHAR: Then I'm wondering about

22 looking at the NOP program manual. And actually
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1 have some system for managing risks.

2 So you mentioned about that if an

3 accredited certifier who was under an equivalency

4 agreement with another entity, revoked or had its

5 certification -- its accreditation revoked. That

6 we couldn't revoke their accreditation under the

7 equivalency agreement without evidence.

8 But, I'm wondering if we couldn't have

9 something in the program manual that would then

10 at least bring extra scrutiny to that accredited

11 certifier? Because there's obviously a risk

12 that's going -- that another entity has

13 identified.

14 So I'm just wondering if we couldn't

15 improve our program manual to bring up the

16 procedures there?

17 DR. TUCKER: Yeah. Risk-based

18 oversight and audits is something that we're

19 spending a lot of time talking about. So, how do

20 we, both in our enforcement and surveillance

21 programs, take more of a risk-based approach?

22 And so that's something that is of
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1 great interest in the program. We have done

2 increased compliance audits and increased

3 satellite office audits in response to some of

4 those risks.

5 But yes, that is an area that we're

6 very interested in looking further at. Thank you

7 for the questions.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave?

9 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes. Thank you Jenny

10 for that overview of things. That was quite

11 detailed.

12 And I have a question. You said that

13 AMS has accepted the findings and AMS will act on

14 the findings by July 2018. That's pretty soon, I

15 think. Less than a year.

16 And I'm just wondering, has there been

17 a kind of a mental sensitivity analysis done on,

18 you know, what are the -- what are the big

19 hammers?

20 And what are the tweaks out of those

21 nine that are -- that really need attention first

22 in order to make the greatest improvement in the
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1 integrity in the system?

2 If everything wasn't done by 2018,

3 July 2018.

4 DR. TUCKER: Good question. So let me

5 sort of clarify the July 2018 date. Right?

6 So the way OIG audits work is that we

7 do responses where we need to have responses to

8 everything in a year. It does not mean the work

9 will be done in a year.

10 So for example, a couple of these

11 recommendations are things like needs assessments

12 and concepts of operation. So that doesn't mean

13 we'll have a system built by July 2018, it means

14 we'll have a concept of operations and plan for a

15 system developed by then.

16 And that's actually worked in the

17 past. We did the same with the Organic Integrity

18 Database.

19 We put a needs assessment out there in

20 2013. It was -- it sparked an awful lot of

21 feedback and conversation, this is what we need. 

22 Is this not what we need?
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1 So for example, back to Harriet's

2 question about well, how do you alert certifiers

3 and trade? A concept of operations might lay out

4 some, here are some options for doing that.

5 Which would then generate feedback

6 about okay, is that the right way of doing it? 

7 Is there another way of doing it?

8 In terms of the big hits, those are

9 things we're doing already. So, separate from

10 the OIG audit.

11 We're continuing to do certifier

12 audits. We're continuing to look at these risk13 based approaches. We're continuing to track

14 ships.

15 So those are actions that we are

16 taking. We'll continue to take concurrently with

17 looking longer term, is what is the capability

18 development that has to happen to sort of

19 accommodate the growth of this industry?

20 That's something again we invite

21 everyone to take a look at. You know, it's not -

22 - so NOP will do it's -- what it can do in the
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1 system. But industry owns a part of this, the

2 certifiers own a part of this.

3 So, I think as we're working on the

4 OIG audit, starting to put materials out there

5 that will also feed feedback about well, what is

6 everybody else doing? And how do these all touch

7 together in the long term?

8 Does that make sense? And does it

9 answer your question?

10 MR. MORTENSEN: I think it makes

11 sense. I, you know, I'm the "scientist" on the

12 Board. But I work a lot and interact a lot with

13 grain growers and -- grain growers.

14 And I hear a lot of concern about how

15 quickly we can improve the integrity of the

16 shipments coming in. And the concern about its

17 impact on price, et cetera, et cetera.

18 DR. TUCKER: Yeah.

19 MR. MORTENSEN: So, I think as we move

20 forward, it will be very helpful to have a sense

21 for how quickly we can improve the system in a

22 way that's going to make a difference to folks on
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1 the ground.

2 DR. TUCKER: Yeah. I would say also

3 that good science is supported by good data. 

4 Which is why I emphasized so much the importance

5 of the Organic Integrity Database and reporting

6 of things like acreage data.

7 We really need that data both

8 domestically and abroad. And I think that data

9 will also help support sort of more science-based

10 actions and faster actions.

11 So we understand the landscape better. 

12 Yeah. Thank you. Good question.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: So I have a quick follow

14 up question. Then I'll go to Emily and Francis.

15 I also want to just put a quick

16 reminder out. I'm not trying to discourage

17 import related questions.

18 But we do have that import panel of

19 experts which Jenny is a part of. So we'll have

20 additional time at that time to ask it as well. 

21 I see you as well, Harriet.

22 Really quick follow up. You mentioned
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1 acreage data, Jenny, domestic and abroad. What's

2 the -- how would we go about accumulating that

3 information?

4 As my understanding now it's not

5 required to be listed on organic certificates?

6 DR. TUCKER: Right. It's also not --

7 it's not required in the Organic Integrity

8 Database.

9 And so that's where we'd really like

10 to have the data. Is the system will allow for

11 operation level reporting of acreage data.

12 And also has -- there are ways where

13 certifiers have figured out how to report it on a

14 field basis. And it's not just acreage, it's

15 also livestock counts.

16 So the system is set up to accept that

17 data. Not a lot of certifiers are providing that

18 data right now.

19 So we're really trying to emphasize

20 the importance of that data coming into the

21 system.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: And then the OID itself
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1 is not applicable to equivalent countries. And

2 so how do we --

3 DR. TUCKER: You mean Integrity

4 Database?

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Yeah.

6 DR. TUCKER: Right.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: How do we deal with that

8 gap?

9 DR. TUCKER: It's a good question. So

10 I think a lot of other countries are looking at

11 the Organic Integrity Database as a model for the

12 kinds of systems they could stand up.

13 Right now they're -- right now there's

14 no plans to include equivalency countries in the

15 Organic Integrity Database. Its operations are

16 certified to the U.S. standards.

17 However, we -- I think conversations

18 happen with other countries about what systems

19 they have. We have built a very public data

20 dictionary.

21 And we publish all of our, what are

22 called APIs, application programming interfaces. 
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1 So anyone can take our data, can grab our data,

2 the publically available data and use that

3 information.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Emily?

5 MS. OAKLEY: I have two questions. Do

6 you want me to ask the first one first?

7 I was wondering if you had any sense

8 of when you would be announcing the new position

9 who will be replacing Francis's seat?

10 DR. TUCKER: Which position? I can't

11 -- oh, Francis's. Sorry. There's a little bit

12 of an echo.

13 So, we got some very qualified

14 candidates for that seat that's becoming vacant. 

15 That application review process is still

16 underway.

17 So, we would anticipate an

18 announcement in the next few months.

19 MS. OAKLEY: Okay. And then my second

20 question is related to complaints. I believe you

21 stated that 75 percent of the complaints are

22 regarding non-certified operations that are
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1 representing their products as organic.

2 And I know that with the limited staff

3 there are constraints into how quickly you guys

4 can resolve those complaint issues. But, I know

5 I've actually submitted one, and it's been over a

6 year since it's been through the pipeline.

7 And I'm wondering what are some of the

8 things that could be done to help speed up that

9 process short of additional staff?

10 DR. TUCKER: Okay. Good question. 

11 So, how are we -- we are -- we are re-looking at

12 the overall complaint management process.

13 So I shared that we're taking in some

14 of the intake. That's actually helping a lot.

15 That's been introduced in the last few

16 months. And it's already making a significant

17 difference.

18 So I'm going to give a real example. 

19 We used to get complaints and -- well, we still

20 get emails in saying, well, how do I know that

21 Farmer Brown is organic?

22 Right? And so you can hear that in
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1 two ways. How do I know Farmer Brown is organic? 

2 Or I can hear, hey, how do I know Farmer Brown's

3 organic?

4 And so it turns out that a lot of them

5 are that hey, how do I know? They're just

6 questions. They're not, I think he's falsifying.

7 And so when we've trained our intake

8 specialist to recognize the difference and to ask

9 the right questions right up front. Which takes

10 care of a lot of those.

11 Because we can answer the question. 

12 And then our analyst doesn't need to spend the

13 time looking up, is he in the Organic Integrity

14 Database? Is he certified? Is he currently

15 certified?

16 And so there's a whole service out

17 there. We're also teaching the staff more about

18 risk-based approaches in terms of how do you

19 quickly look at an incoming complaint? And how

20 do you quickly get information out?

21 So, for example, some folks are

22 selling as organic. They still don't know that
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1 there are laws related to that.

2 And all you have to do is send them a

3 letter saying, did you know there are laws

4 related to that? Stop doing that. And they stop

5 doing that. Oh, I'm so sorry. Let me stop doing

6 that.

7 And so I think the trick is getting

8 those letters out faster. So we have a new

9 Compliance and Enforcement Director, Betsy

10 Rakola.

11 She is doing a superb job of

12 recognizing those opportunities and implementing

13 them very, very quickly. So, we're really

14 pleased by how that's playing out.

15 And I think the numbers are going to

16 continue to reflect that over time.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Francis?

18 DR. THICKE: Thank you Jenny for your

19 informative presentation. I have a question

20 about one of the enforcement actions taken this

21 year.

22 It has to do with the 15,000 cow dairy
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1 in Colorado that was alleged to not be grazing. 

2 And recently the response of the Compliance

3 Department was that it was in full compliance.

4 And it's a lot surprising to some

5 people. I'd like to have some more information

6 about how that was come to that conclusion.

7 DR. TUCKER: Okay.

8 DR. THICKE: We've all seen -- in fact

9 just to preface it, we've seen the articles in

10 the Washington Post that they had investigated

11 over three months, eight times they had

12 investigated that scene.

13 Fewer than 10 percent of the cows

14 grazing. And they had done tests on omega-3

15 fatty acids and conjugated linoleic acids, and

16 found they were on the level of conventional

17 agriculture.

18 And so I called the Compliance Officer

19 at NOP to see did you schedule this ahead of

20 time? Or did you do it unannounced?

21 And she told me that they scheduled it

22 ahead of time. So I was really concerned that
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1 you would do that, come one day and tell them you

2 were coming so they could put the cows out and

3 conduct -- do what they had to do with their

4 records.

5 And it's a real concern for me. Are

6 you going to be looking more into that?

7 DR. TUCKER: Okay. Thanks for the

8 question Francis. You know, I can't comment on

9 the specifics of any particular investigation.

10 I will mention that unannounced

11 inspections are very, very important tools in the

12 organic control system. Very important and NOP

13 does conduct unannounced inspections.

14 We also rely on certifiers to do

15 unannounced inspections. In fact they're

16 required to do up to five percent a year

17 unannounced inspections.

18 So, they are a very important tool in

19 the compliance tool box. As I mentioned earlier,

20 the evidence needs to be what is in -- against

21 what's in the regulations.

22 So nutrient levels are not part of the
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1 regulations right now. So that's not -- it's not

2 a regulatory criteria against which compliance

3 can be evaluated.

4 And really, there's no substitute for

5 the annual inspection of getting into the farm. 

6 Of walking the fields. Of reviewing the records

7 in real time onsite.

8 And so trained auditors go onsite and

9 they review these records. And they look at the

10 practices. They look at the animals. They look

11 at the pastures.

12 They see what's going on across the

13 entire farm. And so there's really not a

14 substitute for that kind of robust inspection.

15 DR. THICKE: Okay. Thank you.

16 DR. TUCKER: So, unannounced

17 inspections as I mentioned earlier, we are

18 continuing to look at how risk-based inspections

19 could feed more into the system.

20 And so I think unannounced inspections

21 are a good tool in that risk-based framework.

22 DR. THICKE: But I would point out
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1 that the Washington Post article indicated that

2 the inspection was done by the certifier after

3 the grazing season. So there was no way they

4 could know if they were grazing.

5 And this is a real concern. Because

6 a lot of small dairy farmers are suffering

7 greatly. And there's a huge oversupply of milk.

8 And the same organization is going to

9 be an -- they're announcing they're going to put

10 30,000 cows in Missouri. So, I would really urge

11 stronger kind of enforcement on this.

12 I'm reminded of this thing with CLAs

13 and omega-3s, that they are pretty good evidence. 

14 And the fact that there are pictures of cows not

15 grazing, it reminds me of Henry David Thoreau

16 once said about dairy farmers in his day that

17 were diluting milk with water.

18 And he said, sometimes circumstantial

19 evidence can be very great, like when you find a

20 trout in the milk.

21 And so I think that we have to be a

22 little stronger on some of these things. I would
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1 urge you to do that. Thank you.

2 (Applause.)

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you everybody.

4 DR. TUCKER: Thank you for the

5 feedback Francis.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet?

7 MS. BEHAR: I have two questions. 

8 First for Jenny and the second for Paul.

9 So, I just wanted to know if there has

10 been any thought with this risk-based, as well as

11 the new procedures for the import, if that will

12 be translated into new questions on the

13 accreditation auditor's checklist?

14 And more training for -- I know you're

15 doing some training for certifiers. But I want

16 to make sure too that at the accreditation level,

17 when they are being -- going through their

18 accreditation that these new procedures are going

19 to be translated into a checklist, you know,

20 sooner rather than later?

21 DR. TUCKER: So I would say the

22 checklist is always evolving as we continue to
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1 find new things. Right?

2 As the industry continues to grow and

3 change, new things get added to the checklist. I

4 would -- I would also say in addition to our

5 auditors being well trained and looking for a

6 risk-based, we also need certifiers to be making

7 sure that all their inspectors know how to do

8 trace-back audits. How to do mass balance

9 audits.

10 So, inspector training is as important

11 part of a risk-based system. So, all the

12 certifiers need to take responsibility to make

13 sure the inspectors that they are putting on the

14 ground can also do that kind of risk-based

15 assessment.

16 MS. BEHAR: And then for Paul. I know

17 that the Materials Subcommittee has put forward

18 for a work agenda item, a comprehensive review of

19 sanitizers, disinfectants, the products that are

20 in contact with organic foods.

21 And I'm wondering where that is in the

22 process? And we did kind of put that forward to
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1 help both the NOSB and their deliberations when

2 we get new sanitizers, et cetera -- petitioned,

3 so we can see where they fit in the greater

4 picture.

5 And see if there's any holes or, you

6 know, where they're needed. Certain, you know,

7 environments that they work in, or whatever.

8 As well as for the trade. So they can

9 see where there possibly are holes or

10 duplications as we have petitions and go through

11 sunset.

12 So where is that standing now?

13 DR. LEWIS: Sure. So thank you

14 Harriet. So we just received that request for a

15 work agenda item from the Board.

16 So thank you for that. This is

17 something that I know that we've been talking to

18 the Executive Committee about this work agenda

19 item.

20 As Dr. Tucker just mentioned, we have

21 new leadership in transition with the National

22 Organic Program, Dr. Guo. So, I'm looking
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1 forward to talking to her and familiarizing her

2 with that information.

3 One thing to think about, as this work

4 agenda item is being developed, as the public

5 knows, we have an open docket system. So, if you

6 have information that could help the Board

7 explore this topic in terms of are there

8 particular sanitizers that may be useful for a

9 particular use on a particular substrate, that

10 would help the Board in terms of some of its

11 work.

12 So again, you know, use the public

13 comment opportunity, especially written comments

14 to help educate the Board and help the Board with

15 its work.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley?

17 MS. SWAFFAR: Thanks for your update,

18 Jenny. You snuck in there a little bit about

19 methionine.

20 I'd just like to know a little more

21 about where that is in the process.

22 DR. TUCKER: So there is a -- there is
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1 a proposed rule that has been drafted and has

2 entered the early clearance process.

3 So, when that rule makes it through

4 clearance, then it would be announced, a standard

5 process that any proposed rule once it's -- goes

6 through clearance would be published for public

7 comment.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you.

9 DR. TUCKER: Thank you.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave?

11 MR. MORTENSEN: Jenny, the Board is --

12 and the Materials Subcommittee is wanting to move

13 ahead with amending the inert ingredients list. 

14 This has been something that the Board over the

15 years has worked on.

16 In 2010 the EPA moved away from the

17 EPA List Four to their new Safer Choice Program

18 for compounds. The Program is supported by EPA.

19 And it would provide a framework by

20 which inerts involved in organic production can

21 be critically evaluated for inclusion on the

22 National List.
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1 In order for us to move ahead with

2 this, we are going to need to have a Memorandum

3 of Understanding. Some sort of open and active

4 dialog between EPA, NOP and members of the

5 Materials Subcommittee on the NOSB.

6 And we're poised to move ahead with

7 that. And what we're going to need is the MOU to

8 get the crosstalk going between the agencies.

9 DR. TUCKER: Right. So we have that

10 item. We're very aware of that item.

11 We're still going through transition. 

12 EPA is also still going through their transition.

13 So I would say as both departments and

14 agencies find their way in the new administration

15 that that is a conversation that we'll have in

16 terms of how do we proceed with that.

17 DR. LEWIS: If I could just add, just

18 about that comment. Is that this is one thing,

19 Dave, that we're aware of.

20 We've had a number of interactions

21 with EPA with Office -- that Program colleagues. 

22 So, this has been a dialog we've had over the
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1 years.

2 And this is a topic that we're looking

3 forward to presenting to Dr. Guo. And with the

4 new administration coming onboard in terms of

5 prioritizing.

6 MR. MORTENSEN: I'm just curious. 

7 Because I was very involved with the EPA when I

8 was -- during the Obama administration.

9 Do we have some sense for how long

10 this will take?

11 DR. TUCKER: I do not.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: Are there active

13 discussions underway where, you know, where this

14 is being entertained as something we can get

15 going?

16 DR. LEWIS: We've had ongoing

17 discussions with OPP and EPA.

18 MR. MORTENSEN: Um-hum.

19 DR. LEWIS: So, you know, again as

20 folks come onboard we'll see in terms of the

21 timing of that activity.

22 DR. SEITZ: Jenny, if I understood
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1 correctly from your presentation, if the NOSB

2 recommends removal of a substance from the

3 National List, and then there's subsequent

4 rulemaking and there's public comment that is

5 strongly in favor in keeping that on the list and

6 there may not be any public comment, further

7 public comment on removal that there still is

8 discretion on the part of the USDA to keep that

9 substance on the list.

10 In other words, the recommendation

11 from the Board may not necessarily be acted upon

12 in the way that the Board recommends. Is that --

13 DR. TUCKER: Your interpretation is

14 correct.

15 DR. SEITZ: Yeah. So, in other words

16 if there were people who presented testimony or

17 advocated the removal of a substance, they should

18 be aware that during subsequent rulemaking, they

19 may want to -- they may want to provide public

20 comment again, just to make sure that that's

21 finally acted upon.

22 DR. TUCKER: That's why I emphasized
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1 that process.

2 DR. SEITZ: Yes. Okay. I just wanted

3 to be clear on that.

4 DR. TUCKER: It's really important -- 

5 yeah. So it's important for folks who are using

6 materials to say that during the Board process.

7 And there are people who -- for folks

8 who want to advocate removal, it's important for

9 them to say that during the rulemaking process

10 and vice versa.

11 So, it's important for everyone to

12 participate throughout the process. Because both

13 parts are important, the Board public process and

14 the rulemaking public process. Yeah.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet?

16 MS. BEHAR: Just a quick comment on

17 the inerts. I'm hoping as we work through --

18 you, the NOP works through the MOU with the EPA

19 that you'll come back to the NOSB in case we have

20 some input into possible additions or

21 modifications to that MOU.

22 Because you know, we are in charge of
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1 materials. And those inerts are, I mean, not

2 ultimately, but in the review.

3 So, we would like to make sure that

4 that MOU is robust. And really does meet the

5 criteria of the EPA.

6 DR. TUCKER: Yeah. I would assume

7 that be a collaborative process. Absolutely.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Jenny, I have a

9 question. First of all, I was happy to hear of

10 the -- I guess appointment or hiring, I don't

11 know what the correct term is.

12 But the hiring, I guess of Acting

13 Deputy Administrator Ruihong Guo. It's great to

14 see a familiar face in that role in this

15 transition period.

16 But can you go through a little bit

17 the process of finding a permanent Deputy

18 Administrator? And what that looks like?

19 DR. TUCKER: Sure. So I can talk

20 through sort of the generalized process of how

21 this works.

22 The NOP Deputy Administrator position
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1 is what's called a career senior executive

2 service position. That's another acronym, SES. 

3 SES stands for senior executive service.

4 So I'm going to now use SES. So SES,

5 career SES positions are -- go through a very

6 structured and lots of procedures associated with

7 that kind of hiring process.

8 So what will happen is that generally

9 for SES, career SES positions, they will be

10 announced on a website called USAJOBS. So you

11 can just type into Google, USAJOBS.

12 And it will put the job announcement

13 out there. You can go out into USAJOBS now and

14 search for SES and it will come up with all the

15 SES positions across federal agencies.

16 That announcement will include a job

17 description. It will also include what's called

18 executive qualifications.

19 Those are sort of five categories of

20 executive qualifications that anyone applying for

21 the SES must meet. And then there are also a --

22 generally a set of technical qualifications.
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1 So those are specialized sort of

2 technical experience that one needs for the job. 

3 So, that application window is also set by

4 regulation in terms of how long the position must

5 be open.

6 Applications will come in. They are

7 then reviewed by an initial panel. And then they

8 go through a hiring manager process that involves

9 interviews.

10 The process can take a while. So,

11 we're -- it's about usually somewhere between six

12 to nine months. Which is why we have an Acting

13 Deputy Administrator.

14 So generally, if you're going to have

15 a vacancy at the SES level, they like to put in

16 temporarily another SES. So somebody who's

17 already in the SES corps into the position during

18 that hiring period to provide that continuity.

19 Does that --

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. Thank you. All

21 right. I'm not seeing any more questions. 

22 Jenny, thank you so much for --
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: I have one more

2 question.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Oh, I'm sorry. Dave, go

4 ahead.

5 MR. MORTENSEN: As a university person

6 I get involved in a lot of searches, job searches

7 that is. And I'm curious, who appoints the

8 search committee?

9 DR. TUCKER: Who appoints the search

10 committee? Okay. So, initially the way SES

11 hiring works, and this is all on the OPM website.

12 So if you're interested in how this

13 works, the OPM, which stands for Office of

14 Personnel Management. Sorry, another acronym

15 there.

16 Office of Personnel Management is the

17 office that dictates how this kind of hiring

18 happens. How all federal hiring happens.

19 And so there is a screening process

20 that involves other SESs in different agencies

21 that review the applications. Because they're

22 interested not only in technically are you able
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1 to do this job, but do you have the skills and

2 the executive qualifications to be in the corps

3 itself, the senior executive corps itself?

4 So, there will be review panels of

5 folks outside the agency at the SES level that

6 will review applications. And then the panel

7 within the agency to do the interviews is

8 selected by the Administrator's office.

9 MR. MORTENSEN: The Secretary --

10 DR. TUCKER: So right now Bruce is --

11 Bruce Summers is the Acting Administrator.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: Okay.

13 DR. TUCKER: And so he would be the

14 one that would convene that panel generally.

15 MR. MORTENSEN: Um-hum. Okay. 

16 Thanks.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. Thank you

18 Jenny very much for your time and comments. 

19 We'll now move on the agenda to the NOSB report.

20 So I'll try to keep it brief. But as

21 I was writing this up last night, I realized I

22 kept going on and on.
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1 But I am what separates us from break. 

2 So, I will try to keep it brief.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. CHAPMAN: This is our first

5 meeting back in Florida after a long time. And

6 I'm happy to be here.

7 Florida is home to -- Jenny kind of

8 stole some of my fire with her love of

9 agricultural statistics. But, home to over 450

10 certified operations, and one that she didn't

11 mention, 72 million dollars of sales from organic

12 farmers and ranchers.

13 In April I started our meeting then

14 talking about the weighty issues we have on our

15 work agenda. Most of those still remain. And we

16 now have several more.

17 The organic community has come far

18 over the years. And yet we continue to struggle

19 with the issues that affected us from the very

20 earliest days.

21 With concerns over integrity, disputes

22 over standard setting, regional differences that
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1 come consider shortcutting, or diminishing their

2 view of what organic is. Even the areas where we

3 agree, we continue to struggle with working

4 within the confines of a federal administration

5 in dealing with various regulatory hurdles that

6 that entails.

7 When I get discouraged by the

8 challenges we face, I find reassurances in

9 looking back and taking stock of how far we've

10 actually come. Organic has gone from a fringe

11 program at the USDA to one of the most prominent

12 and public programs of the AMS.

13 And while we still struggle to get the

14 appropriate funding and staffing to support the

15 system, it's still far better than where we

16 started. I'm heartened by the progress of our

17 discussions. And that we've moved beyond blunt

18 topics.

19 For example, the exclusion of GMOs to

20 more nuanced topics like discussing specific

21 genetic methods that are prohibited. And while

22 nuanced topics are no easier than the blunt ones,
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1 it's still progress that the conversations have

2 moved along.

3 The organic community has always been

4 made up of a patchwork of different folks

5 motivated for different reasons, coming together

6 for a common cause around an alternative path for

7 organic -- for agricultural production and

8 consumption.

9 This path has multiple aspirations. 

10 And it's difficult at times to balance these

11 multiple aspirations when pulled in different

12 directions.

13 Some view this is as dysfunction. I

14 view this as a product of a passionate and

15 engaged diverse community.

16 The very attribute that makes a

17 community so resilient that it continues to bring

18 farmers and consumers together, growing the

19 organic movement and marketplace.

20 Back in April I also asked for the

21 public's patience during this time of transition

22 of administrations. And unfortunately I will
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1 need to make that same ask today.

2 Six months after our meeting in April,

3 we do have a Secretary of Agriculture now, a

4 Deputy Secretary and an Undersecretary.

5 But we're still working with an Acting

6 AMS Administrator. And as everyone is aware,

7 with Miles's retirement, we now have an Acting

8 Deputy Administrator of the NOP as well.

9 I'd be remiss if I did not say that I

10 missed Miles. Although I do enjoy Jenny and

11 Paul's company up here.

12 He was a strong advocate for organic

13 within the USDA. And was critical to allow the

14 progress I mentioned earlier.

15 However, Miles's legacy lives on. 

16 Especially in the strong staff that he recruited

17 during his tenure, like folks like Jenny and

18 Paul, Lisa, Michelle, and Devin. And with them

19 we'll continue to be in good hands.

20 I also look forward to working with

21 the new Acting Administrator, Ruihong Guo. And

22 continuing to make progress on our work agenda.
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1 We have 13 and a half hours dedicated

2 to public comment. I'm not going to go into the

3 stats, because again, Jenny loves stats as much

4 as I do. And you saw them earlier.

5 But from the numbers you can tell, we

6 have a very engaged public. And we appreciate

7 and value those comments. I'm always impressed

8 with the range and thoughtfulness of the comments

9 we receive.

10 I also want to welcome my fellow NOSB

11 family members. And that's what you guys feel

12 like these days, like family members. While you

13 may not always agree with your family, you've

14 still got to love them.

15 Your service and time commitment is

16 amazing. And I thank you for your thoughtful

17 engagement, careful reflection, and respectful

18 debate.

19 Your commitment to the organic

20 community is invaluable. And I thank you for

21 your countless hours, unpaid, away from your

22 farms, your businesses, your research, away from
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1 your students and colleagues, and most

2 importantly, time away from your family.

3 With that I'm going to move onto some

4 housekeeping items. And first off, I'd like to

5 review the NOSB conflict of interest policy in

6 accordance with our policy and procedures manual.

7 NOSB members are classified as

8 representatives under the Federal Advisory

9 Committee Act. And each representative is

10 appointed to articulate view points and interests

11 of a particular interest group.

12 The Organic Food Production Act

13 prescribes these interest groups, which include

14 farmers and growers, handlers and certifiers,

15 environmentalists, conservationists, scientists,

16 consumers and public interest groups, and

17 retailers.

18 As such, NOSB members are not expected

19 to provide independent expert advice, but rather

20 advice based on the interest of the group served. 

21 NOSB members represent interests of a particular

22 group such as many of the -- as such, sorry. 
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1 It's a flip flop of words there.

2 As such, many of the interests are

3 acceptable interests. An interest is acceptable

4 if carried out on behalf of the represented

5 group. And if the Board member receives no

6 disproportionate benefit from expressing the

7 interest.

8 True conflicts of interest arise when

9 an interest one, directly or disproportionately

10 benefits you or a person associated with that

11 member; or two, could impair the objectivity of

12 the member in representing their group; or three,

13 has the potential to create an unfair competitive

14 advantage.

15 The appearance of a personal conflict

16 or loss in partiality while not a true conflict,

17 must also be considered when conducting NOSB

18 business.

19 Once discussion documents and

20 proposals are posted for public comment, each

21 NOSB member is to review the documents across

22 outside committees and research any potential
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1 conflicts of interest due to the organizational

2 affiliations and relationships.

3 Prior to the meeting, the program

4 provides a matrix, which is now being displayed,

5 to all NOSB members that lists the items being

6 considered at the meeting. Members use this

7 matrix to disclose conflicts of interest and for

8 us to reference for any recusals when voting on

9 items.

10 If an individual is unsure if they

11 have a conflict of interest, then the question is

12 posed to the NOP's DFO. And working with the

13 USDA Office of Ethics as needed, will make a

14 determination about whether a conflict of

15 interest exists.

16 The matrix is not being displayed. 

17 And as you can see, we have no recusals at this

18 time.

19 If we were to have recusals, we would

20 remind the Board members at the start of each

21 subcommittee section of debate. However, given

22 there is no recusals, we will forego that
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1 formality.

2 If Board members wish to disclose any

3 information about their interests, they're

4 welcome to do so at this time. This is a general

5 request and voluntary.

6 And no specific statements are

7 required. Does anyone wish to make a statement?

8 (No audible response.)

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Moving on,

10 I also ask folks to be courteous to their

11 neighbors, public commenters and to the Board. 

12 Please silence your phones, silence your

13 computers, and take any conversations outside

14 into the hallway or the foyer.

15 We have stanchions placed up here. 

16 And we ask the public to refrain from coming

17 behind the Board as it is distracting to the

18 Board members listening to testimony or

19 deliberating on issues.

20 This is not to deter from public

21 interaction with individual members during the

22 break. And I encourage that interaction where
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1 possible.

2 I remind the public that photography

3 and the use of other media is allowed at this

4 public meeting. And I ask for those that use

5 those devices to be respectful of the Board and

6 public commenters, and not to be distracting.

7 If individuals become disruptive at

8 this meeting, they will be warned. If the

9 disruptions continue, those individuals will be

10 asked to leave.

11 I do plan on running a tight ship with

12 a little bit of humor now and then. And my only

13 ask is that you laugh at all my jokes.

14 (Laughter.)

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. It worked this

16 time. Because the last time I did that, and no

17 one laughed.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. CHAPMAN: In fact I had already

20 written something in here about man, no one

21 laughed at that this time. All right. Very

22 good. People learn.
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1 All right. A few announcements of

2 activities surrounding us. First of all, if you

3 haven't realized, today is Halloween.

4 So if you brought your children with

5 you, and perhaps a spouse or other responsible

6 guardian, there's a downtown trick or treat event

7 from 11:00 to 2:00 p.m. today.

8 And I know most folks will want to

9 stay in this room for whatever ghostly haunts are

10 in store for us on our agenda. But as a father

11 of young children, I wanted to throw that out

12 there for all the parents that are in the

13 audience.

14 Also today during lunch, some members

15 of the Keep Soil in Organic movement, will be

16 holding a rally offsite. They will be meeting,

17 as I understand, in the parking lot during lunch

18 to walk over to their event location. Which is,

19 I think, about a five minute walk.

20 More information -- I believe more

21 information about that is available outside. And

22 if you're interested in that, I encourage you to
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1 find Dave Chapman.

2 Lastly, QCS is generously hosting a

3 reception at the Intuition Brewery tomorrow night

4 after the meeting. I can think of no better

5 motivation to get done on time than beer.

6 That's it for me. I think we're ready

7 for a break. And then after that we'll start

8 back with our expert panel on imports.

9 Thank you everybody. We're in recess

10 until 10:30.

11 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

12 went off the record at 10:09 a.m. and

13 resumed at 10:40 a.m.)

14 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, we're going

15 to get started here. Thank you, everyone, for

16 getting quiet and finding your seats. We're

17 going to start back up with our panel of experts

18 on federal agencies and imports, and I'm going to

19 hand it over to Dr. Paul Lewis for an

20 introduction.

21 DR. LEWIS: Thank you, Tom, and thank

22 you to the members of the Board. Last August,
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1 the National Organic Program provided a charge or

2 work agenda to the National Organic Standards

3 Board on improving oversight of imported organic

4 products. The Agricultural Marketing Service

5 National Organic Program, as background,

6 determined that certain shipments of corn and soy

7 shipped from Turkey were fraudulently labeled as

8 organic.

9 As Dr. Tucker spoke about earlier this

10 morning, AMSNOP has taken steps to deter

11 additional fraudulent shipments and to protect

12 the integrity of the organic system. As part of

13 that work agenda item from last August, the NOP

14 requests that the National Organic Standards

15 Board provide recommendations on improving the

16 oversight and control procedures used by AMSNOP

17 certifiers and operations to verify organic

18 claims for imported organic products. Today's

19 panel is really the beginning of an opportunity

20 of a dialogue for federal perspectives on the

21 import of organic products.

22 We're excited, this morning, to bring
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1 together several players from the federal

2 community to provide a background for the Board,

3 as part of its beginning work dealing with this

4 important issue, in terms of maintaining the

5 integrity of imported organic commodities.

6 We have four panel members this

7 morning. I want to introduce them to you. First

8 is Michael Durando, who is from the USDA's

9 Agricultural Marketing Service Marketing Order

10 and Agreement Division. Mr. Durando will open

11 the panel discussion, providing an overview from

12 a federal perspective.

13 Michael serves USDA's director of the

14 Marketing Order and Agreement Division in this

15 capacity. He oversees the administration of

16 numerous regulatory programs, including federal

17 marketing orders for fruits, vegetables, and

18 specialty crops and related programs. Second, we

19 have Mr. Daniel Collier, from the Department of

20 Homeland Security Customs and Border Protection. 

21 Mr. Collier is an international trade specialist

22 in the Office of Trade. His focus is on
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1 interacting with other U.S. government agencies

2 to effectively carry out various public health,

3 safety, and trade enforcement missions.

4 Previously, he served as a

5 presidential management fellow at the Department

6 of Homeland Security. Third, we have Mr. Matthew

7 Farmer, from USDA's Animal and Plant Health

8 Inspection Service, the Plant Protection and

9 Quarantine Program. Mr. Farmer is the assistant

10 director in that office for the Quarantine Policy

11 Analysis and Support Division. He has previous

12 experience with the Department of Homeland

13 Security Customs and Border Protection.

14 He also worked at U.S. Forest Service,

15 Department of Justice, and he's a graduate of the

16 State University of New York College of

17 Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse,

18 where he earned dual degrees in biology and

19 natural resource management. The first three

20 panelists will really help set the stage, in

21 terms of what's happening, really, in the broader

22 federal community. Then finally, Dr. Jenny
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1 Tucker, as you all know, is the associate

2 administrator of the USDA Agricultural Marketing

3 Service with the National Organic Program, really

4 helps set the stage in terms of what the charge

5 is for the Board and to help set the stage in

6 terms of opening the questions and a dialogue in

7 this area. I'd like to first turn to Mr.

8 Durando.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Just for the Board,

10 we're going to run through the four

11 presentations, and then open it up to question

12 and answer after.

13 MR. DURANDO: Good morning, everybody. 

14 Let's get the slides adjusted here. Paul, thank

15 you very much for that introduction. Good

16 morning, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, members of

17 the National Organic Standards Board. Good

18 morning, members of the audience.

19 I want to thank our good colleagues at

20 the National Organic Program for the invitation

21 to be here today and attempt to shed a little bit

22 of light, begin to build awareness among the
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1 members of the Board here, about importation of

2 agricultural products and their regulation from a

3 marketing perspective, not from a phytosanitary

4 perspective, which Matt will certainly be

5 addressing that in the course of his

6 presentation. A couple of key points I'd like to

7 cover today.

8 First of all, pointing out how,

9 through work with CBP and department wide and

10 with the system that we have built within the

11 Marketing Order and Agreement Division, how we

12 have improved government services through

13 cross-departmental use of information technology,

14 and then to leave you with a bit of a sense of

15 the high degree of complexity of agricultural

16 import regulations.

17 There are a lot of moving parts. As

18 soon as one gets into it, you begin to learn that

19 you didn't know what you didn't know, and you

20 finally discover new aspects of it each time you

21 make a step forward.

22 Going to discuss a little bit of what
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1 we've done in my division, in terms of regulating

2 agricultural imports, specific commodities, that

3 is, and a system we built in our experience with

4 that and what those outcomes are. Finally, I'll

5 leave you with some thoughts about my perspective

6 of what are the critical elements for success for

7 a program like mine, and perhaps like the

8 National Organic Program, in terms of moving

9 forward. What do I think were the key components

10 that allowed us to be successful within the

11 Specialty Crops Program area of AMS with the

12 build and implementation of our system?

13 Jenny Tucker has already thrown out

14 some acronyms, and we appreciate her spending the

15 time to walk you through and remind you what all

16 of these mean. I've put them up here again. I

17 think repetition is good. You're going to here,

18 today, ITDS and ACE. They refer to the

19 International Trade Data System. This is really

20 the whole project that was worked on for,

21 actually, several decades.

22 Daniel Collier, from CBP, will be
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1 talking a lot more about that. Within ITDS is

2 the actual system, called the Automated

3 Commercial Environment. A little bit redundant,

4 but it's a system that's owned by Customs and

5 Border Protection. This whole effort began with

6 an authorization by Congress, in 1993, of a very

7 specific statute, designed to begin to improve

8 the efficiency of agricultural importing into

9 this country -- pardon me, all importing, not

10 just agricultural -- provides a single

11 centralized access point for government and the

12 trade community. They call it the single-window

13 approach. Fifteen to twenty years to build out. 

14 I guess the most important point of this slide is

15 47 partner government agencies -- you'll hear us

16 refer, potentially, to the term PGA or PGAs.

17 That's a partner government agency. 

18 These are all the folks around the federal

19 government who are working across departments,

20 and really throughout, to capitalize on this

21 system and, in essence, improve the integrity of

22 and, if you will, the Homeland Security of the
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1 country. A lot of this is through economic

2 security or phytosanitary security, in the case

3 of agricultural products.

4 A lot of advantages to this system. 

5 You've got coordination among 47 agencies, like

6 we've never had before, streamlined industry

7 compliance, real-time decision making, and

8 long-term reduced costs. Definitely, we're

9 moving out of the paper business. Any of these

10 systems -- and, indeed, as the National Organic

11 Program contemplates participating in ACE,

12 potentially building a system that interacts with

13 it, it's important to understand there are

14 partnerships involved, and there's a deliberate

15 governance system, which is very common in the

16 information technology community. The ITDS board

17 of directors, I serve as the representative for

18 the Agricultural Marketing Service to the ITDS

19 board. That's comprised of the 47 PGAs.

20 It really oversaw the development and

21 build of the ACE system, and then continues to

22 oversee its ongoing development, as it will
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1 change over time. There's a second entity

2 involved in governance, called the Border

3 Interagency Executive Council, or the BIEC. It

4 focuses, really, on operations and maintenance,

5 and then ongoing modernization and enhancements.

6 For those of us who are already in

7 ACE, with message sets and our executing, if you

8 will, there is a need, from time to time, to

9 build improvements or enhancements. Also, if a

10 regulation changes, sometimes it can be a couple

11 of words in a regulation, it may mean that one

12 has to go in, change a message set. That

13 requires time and investment and overall efforts. 

14 The BIEC, we're in a process right now where it's

15 really trying to focus on how to prioritize the

16 needs of 47 agencies and who gets in line first

17 when changes need to be made. I've talked about

18 the different departments. Agriculture is one,

19 but you can just see, in that blue box, how many

20 other departments around the government are

21 involved.

22 The importation into this country of
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1 goods and services is a very, very complex

2 effort. It's wrong to ever assume that our

3 agency, AMS, for example, is the only entity

4 looking at a shipment coming in. There are

5 probably, on average, another 10 or 15 agencies

6 doing their jobs, pretty much out of the

7 limelight, to ensure that product or that good or

8 service actually belongs in this country.

9 I'm going to drill down, now, and

10 focus in. Within USDA, we're one department, and

11 within that, we have four PGAs, USDA AMS, that's

12 the agency within which I serve. Animal and

13 Plant Health Inspection Service is represented by

14 Matt Farmer today and has a very robust system

15 they're working on and interacts very closely

16 with ACE. FSIS is the Food Safety Inspection

17 Service. They're looking at a lot of meat and

18 livestock imports. They have a system that

19 they've built and have been in play now for quite

20 some time. They are a major player within USDA. 

21 Then lastly, the Foreign Agricultural Service,

22 which is primarily a data user.
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1 They don't really have control

2 capability at the border, but they use the data

3 that comes from ACE, really, for statistical

4 purposes, reporting purposes, and evaluation of

5 foreign countries' activities. Going to drill,

6 now, from USDA down into AMS.

7 We're now into AMS, one of 17 agencies

8 within the U.S. Department of Agriculture. There

9 are really five different entities within AMS

10 that have a stake in the utilization of ACE. 

11 They are the Marketing Orders and Agreements

12 Division, where I reside, and we'll talk more

13 about that in a minute, in terms of regulating

14 imports of 14 different commodities.

15 Specialty Crops Inspection actually

16 handles the inspection of all of those

17 commodities that my division regulates. We have

18 a Shell Egg Quality Assessment program that

19 monitors the importation of all shell egg and

20 shell egg products for very specific health and

21 safety purposes. We have two other entities. 

22 Our Market News Division's throughout AMS, a very
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1 robust reporting system of market news, not just

2 in specialty crops, but in livestock and the

3 other commodity sectors. They are a data user.

4 Then the Research and Promotion

5 programs, which, unlike Marketing Orders, don't

6 necessarily regulate quality and standards and

7 minimum grade, but they do provide opportunities

8 for generic research and promotion activities for

9 domestic industries.

10 They pull a tremendous amount of data

11 from ACE for purposes of enforcing assessment

12 collections against imports. You can really

13 group the five entities into two broad

14 categories, one the interactive users, which

15 would be the three on the left, and then the

16 second is the data users, the two on the right.

17 Data users, they don't need to build

18 message sets. There is a thing called an ACE

19 portal. It's a computer window, if you will. 

20 You have to have a clearance to get on. Within

21 our agencies, those Market News and those

22 Research and Promotion program personnel are able
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1 to log on to that portal and pull the data down

2 that they need, in the format they need, and then

3 use it within their systems for compliance

4 purposes. On the interactive users, that's where

5 we actually build out a system that interacts and

6 talks with ACE. We have messages going back and

7 forth because, as you'll see in a minute, we

8 actually have a role in deciding whether, in my

9 division, whether products actually enter this

10 country or not.

11 What is it that the Marketing Order

12 and Agreement Division does? It does a lot of

13 things, but among them, there's what we call

14 Section 8(e), Import Regulations. Without

15 getting into the weeds, there's a very specific

16 statute, the Agricultural Marketing Agreement Act

17 of 1937, that authorizes these things called

18 marketing orders.

19 Within that act is a very specific

20 provision that says whenever a marketing order is

21 in effect for a specific commodity -- maybe it is

22 citrus, maybe it is tomatoes, maybe it's table
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1 grapes -- then any product imported into the

2 United States during that marketing period must

3 meet the same minimum standards -- they can be

4 quality, grade, size or maturity standards --

5 that are applied to domestic producers. This

6 relates to 14 different commodities. In essence,

7 it says if you want to import these products in,

8 then you're going to have to have the same

9 inspection upon entry into the United States as

10 is required of domestic producers or handlers at

11 shipping point, before they ship product into the

12 market within the United States, or even for

13 export purposes.

14 Going back to, I think Jenny may have

15 used a grapefruit example, maybe, in one of her

16 slides, there is a citrus marketing order that

17 regulates grapefruit. In Florida, grapefruit

18 must meet certain minimum sizes, grade, quality

19 standards.

20 During that time period, any

21 grapefruit coming into the United States from

22 South America or South Africa or anywhere else
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1 around the world, prior to being released at the

2 border, it must meet those same standards and be

3 inspected to prove that is the case. 

4 Approximately 250,000 to 350,000 entries per year

5 into the United States just within those 14

6 commodities that we're talking about that my

7 division oversees. An entry is any, what we call

8 a lot. I'm kind of getting into Daniel's area a

9 bit, but typically has a customs entry number. A

10 lot can be a shipment of one pallet of product. 

11 A lot could be a shipment of ten shipboard

12 containers, with maybe 20,000 or 30,000 boxes of

13 product. It really depends on how the broker

14 categorizes the load.

15 These are the 14 commodities, to give

16 you a little bit of perspective as we move

17 through and into this case study. These are the

18 14 commodities that my division regulates from an

19 import standpoint.

20 None of these commodities get into the

21 United States, either on a year-round basis, or

22 some of them are on a cyclical seasonal basis,
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1 without my division ensuring that they are

2 inspected by federal or federal state personnel

3 to meet the same standards that American

4 producers and American shippers have to meet.

5 A little quick picture of before ACE

6 and after ACE. I'm going to give Daniel license

7 to correct me if I go a little bit wrong on this. 

8 I think we have it nailed down. I was trying to

9 put it in just plain language and what does it

10 mean for us, in the government, and perhaps for

11 all of you in business out there. Before ACE,

12 all importers were basically working with paper. 

13 They had reams of paper that they were filing

14 with CBP, and really, going way back before,

15 there would be these dossiers, if you will, of

16 paper that would travel with loads, either air

17 freight -- air, land, sea, whatever it would be

18 -- that would be physically checked at the

19 border.

20 Ultimately, when a product entered,

21 there was a requirement that we had internally

22 called a stamp and fax, where the entity would be
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1 notified -- if customs got down to that level in

2 the weeds, they would remind the importer that

3 you need to get an inspection by AMS to ensure

4 that it meets the right minimum standards.

5 Then it was up to that -- before

6 crossing, that broker to then, in essence, make

7 contact with our inspection personnel and show

8 proof of that, that they provided a heads up that

9 they were coming. This was all with paper and

10 with faxes and phone calls and everything else. 

11 Then we would conduct an inspection. Then there

12 were paper inspection certificates that the

13 shipper or the owner of that product on site

14 would hang on to. Then probably three or four

15 copies of this paper document would go different

16 places, and they would be held in files by our

17 inspection division, and then ultimately, if we

18 wanted to reconcile entries with inspections, we

19 had to somehow obtain, in my division, thousands,

20 tens of thousands, several hundred thousand paper

21 inspections and start going through those one by

22 one and match those up against CBP data.
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1 Creates real difficulty trying to

2 reconcile paper certificates with import data. 

3 This affected timeliness of enforcement. In

4 essence, if we did not respond to Customs and

5 Border Protection within 30 days of entry, it was

6 automatically presumed by CBP that the load met

7 -- they had to let it go and basically release

8 the exporter from any further reliability.

9 We relied on a weekly data transfer

10 from CBP to us via a CD. Literally, a CD with

11 data on it would be couriered over from CBP to

12 AMS, or mailed. We would get that. We'd load it

13 into our system and start building our

14 spreadsheets and attempt to reconcile. The long

15 and the short of it is it really affected the

16 visibility of entries. With all due respect, I'm

17 not sure CBP's data was as accurate then as it is

18 today. We'll talk about after ACE. Definitely,

19 at our end, we did not have good visibility of

20 every single entry. There's no way we could. We

21 didn't have the manpower and certainly couldn't

22 line that up with all of the inspection
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1 certificates.

2 After ACE, which actually was, I

3 guess, built out and in full production, we could

4 say, by December 2016, things changed

5 dramatically. The paper went away. Importers

6 and their brokers were filing electronically,

7 which, upon filing, would generate automatically

8 an inspection request to AMS. In other words,

9 they would go into the single window, as they

10 call it, and there are all the different datasets

11 that the importer or the broker would have to

12 enter.

13 As soon as it was identified as one of

14 the 14 commodities that we regulate, and it was

15 during the time of year when it needed to be

16 regulated, it would generate an automatic signal

17 to our inspection division, saying heads up,

18 you've got this inspection coming, and it's going

19 to be arriving, and it's going to need to be

20 inspected in Los Angeles or in Phoenix or in

21 Denver or in Philadelphia or wherever. The

22 inspection would be conducted, and then that
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1 inspection data is electronically transmitted, in

2 an automated fashion, back to my division, and

3 ultimately, then, on a very real-time basis,

4 what's really happening is we're getting

5 inspection data back on one side -- and you'll

6 see this in a minute -- and then on the other,

7 we're getting the full load of data from CBP.

8 The systems are reconciling, and what

9 we get are the flags, then, of who hasn't

10 fulfilled their inspection requirement. It's a

11 real-time inspection system. What's important is

12 with this new system, there really isn't this

13 30-day default release by CBP. AMS, through my

14 division, has what we call hold-intact authority.

15 Daniel can elaborate on the two

16 different types of authority. Hold-intact

17 authority means that product is not released,

18 legally, from custody of CBP, and the exporter is

19 not released from liability, until we've

20 determined that it meets. We're one of

21 potentially up to 47 agencies that may have

22 something to say about that shipment. With this
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1 new system, with ACE, most of our entries are

2 released within 24 hours. Then very, very

3 importantly, we have visibility of all entries,

4 now, for our regulated products. How do we do

5 this? We do this with something called CEMS, or

6 the Compliance Enforcement Management System. 

7 Basically, it works this way.

8 Again, I'm presenting this as a case

9 study because you might be thinking how might

10 this be applicable to the regulation or the

11 oversight of organic imports, or those that have

12 been certified as organic, in ensuring that they

13 retain that integrity? It starts out here.

14 The importer files in ACE, says I'm

15 bringing in a load of kumquats or grapefruit or

16 tomatoes or whatever. Immediately, ACE transmits

17 data from its window or from its system there

18 into CEMS. The next thing that happens is CEMS,

19 as I mentioned, automatically generates an

20 inspection request to our inspection division.

21 It doesn't go to a centralized

22 division office. It, on an automated basis,
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1 sends a request to, I believe we've got more than

2 30 or 40 inspection offices around the country. 

3 It automatically decides which office needs to

4 receive that request, depending on the final

5 destination of that shipment. The inspection

6 office then, with the exporter and the shipper,

7 arranges for the inspection and conducts it, and

8 the inspection certificate says this load passed. 

9 That data is automatically, then, transmitted

10 back to CEMS, which then looks at it and says

11 this is inspected, we no longer have an interest

12 in it.

13 So automatically, it goes back and it

14 tells CBP that we release our hold, and it's

15 cleared to proceed. It doesn't mean that

16 shipment is cleared to proceed -- that's CBP's

17 final decision. We're saying from AMS Marketing

18 Order standpoint, it's cleared. We no longer

19 have an interest. Obviously, if it doesn't

20 clear, then CBP doesn't get a signal yet from our

21 system, and it knows that there's a problem.

22 It's really no questions asked. It
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1 will not be cleared until AMS is able to

2 reconcile that. CEMS development. How do we

3 build the system? Again, this is important to

4 think about as the National Organic Program

5 contemplates how it wants to deal with the import

6 situation that it has, but it does take time. 

7 For us, it took three years to -- actually, we're

8 probably about seven or eight years in conceiving

9 the concept and pushing for the support, and it

10 wasn't until the ACE build really got traction,

11 in the last four years of its build, but it took

12 us three years, pretty much start to finish, to

13 build out our system, and about $3 million, so it

14 takes money. The resources included our own

15 information technology service.

16 That's our own in-house IT shop of

17 developers and other folks who really work with

18 the contractor's. We had a team of contractors

19 that we retained, as is very common in most IT

20 projects, to build out the system. You've heard

21 the term message sets. We built nine different

22 message sets that are interactive with CBP for
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1 the different commodities.

2 Some of you might be asking wait a

3 minute; you have 14 commodities. Some of the

4 commodities -- more than one commodity can fit

5 into a message set, without going any further

6 into that, so don't let those numbers throw you. 

7 What were the results? The results are

8 important. We increased our visibility of

9 entries from about 500 lots per week to 5,000

10 entries per week. That's a ten-fold increase. 

11 This is very significant for us. The compliance

12 case investigation and average closing time was

13 reduced from about three months, on average,

14 under the before ACE situation, to down to three

15 weeks, on an average, for after ACE and once we

16 built out CEMS. Some of these cases, we have to

17 track them for a while if they have to be

18 re-exported.

19 We also have provisions in our

20 regulations that allow, rather than re-exporting,

21 they can either destroy the product, they can

22 ship it to food banks. They can also put it to
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1 other non-competitive uses. For example, they

2 can send it to a processor or those types of

3 things. We're still piloting our system, and

4 there's some regulatory reasons for that.

5 We haven't finalized a particular

6 rulemaking yet. It will happen. With probably

7 about 5 percent or so, maybe 5 to 10 percent of

8 our imports coming in under our pilot program

9 right now, we've opened and closed 1,200

10 compliance cases just since July 2017. You can

11 see it's a very robust system, with strong

12 capability. It gives us, finally, full

13 enforcement capability for our Section 8(e)

14 important regulations. We had the responsibility

15 before, but the technology just wasn't there. 

16 You couldn't afford the hundreds of additional

17 employees to try to do that on a manual basis. 

18 Very importantly, it leveled the playing field

19 for American producers. An imported product

20 cannot compete unfairly with them on an economic

21 standpoint.

22 Then lastly, and certainly very, very
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1 importantly, assured quality for American

2 consumers. They were not subjected to

3 potentially substandard product coming into the

4 country at a time when they're demanding and

5 wanting a consistently high and standard product

6 quality of a commodity. Critical elements for

7 success.

8 No. 1, you need the legal authority --

9 in our case, the legal authority to regulate

10 imports and hold them to a standard and have the

11 ability to enforce compliance on that product. 

12 Secondly, a clear process of that authority

13 that's supported by regulations which is clearly

14 spelled out. In our regs, where we actually

15 clearly define that entry in the United States is

16 considered to be -- or defined as release from

17 custody of Customs and Border Protection. You

18 need the funding for system development,

19 operations, and maintenance, the staff resources

20 for compliance enforcement. Actually, with our

21 new system, one would think you're going to

22 streamline; you don't need as many people.
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1 We're actually going to have to add a

2 number of additional people because of the

3 compliance caseload, but the benefit to the

4 Department, the industries, and the American

5 people is we're actually enforcing compliance of

6 these regulations.

7 Then last but not least, a lot of

8 communication and outreach to stakeholders. 

9 We've had to partner with major brokers at

10 various ports of entry to develop, test, and

11 pilot our system. You need to have a

12 constructive working relationship with them, not

13 an adversarial relationship. With that, I say

14 thank you. We'll remain available for questions

15 and look forward to the other panelists'

16 contributions. Paul, thank you.

17 DR. LEWIS: Thank you, Michael. Let's

18 give it a moment for Michelle to pull up Daniel's

19 slides. Again, Daniel Collier, from DHS. Again,

20 this is part of getting the broader federal

21 perspective Michael spoke about, in terms of

22 interacting with the federal partners. Daniel
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1 will be adding to that and focusing more in terms

2 of his role with the Department of Homeland

3 Security.

4 MR. COLLIER: Thank you very much. Is

5 this good volume? I want to make sure I'm not

6 leaning in too far into the mic. Thanks, again,

7 very much, Mike. That was an excellent

8 presentation. I kept thinking, during his

9 presentation, that there were things that I

10 wanted to talk more about because he touches on

11 things that I want to talk about. Hopefully,

12 there won't be too much overlap between what I

13 discuss and what he discussed.

14 I'm going to try to provide more of a

15 broader picture of what we call the single-window

16 project implementation that included the

17 agricultural marketing service, USDA, as a whole,

18 and dozens of other agencies that interact with

19 ACE in a variety of ways, which Mike touched on,

20 the data user role versus the data -- I'm sorry,

21 the data user role and the enforcement role that

22 other agencies have upon entry in the United
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1 States. There's a wide variety of that

2 throughout the federal government. Just to get

3 started and provide a general overview of ITDS,

4 which is, as Mike mentioned, the International

5 Trade Data System, which is the large project

6 into which the development of the Automated

7 Commercial Environment, ACE, falls into.

8 ACE has been around for quite a while,

9 and it is the successor to our legacy system, the

10 Automated Commercial System, ACS, which, as ACE

11 has been developed, we have been phasing out ACS. 

12 That transition is not yet complete, so ACS still

13 exists in the background, behind ACE, but ACE is

14 the public facing system that both the federal

15 agencies rely on and our partner government

16 agencies, the PGAs, rely on, and what the trade

17 community uses, our brokers, importers, etc., to

18 file data, file entry information, manifest

19 information, entry summary information into ACE,

20 and then we, as the government, process it on our

21 end.

22 The timeline that we have worked with
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1 for the past couple years officially ended in

2 December of 2016, last year, which was the

3 implementation of the core ACE functionality,

4 which involves the essential functions that each

5 of our 47 partner government agencies undertake

6 for their various trade enforcement missions. 

7 That deadline was set by the previous

8 administration, via executive order, which was

9 issued in February of 2014, or maybe that was

10 2012, excuse me. Now we're in what we call the

11 post-core environment.

12 We are working with our federal

13 partners, our trade community partners, and

14 within our own agency to prioritize enhancements

15 to the system, based on requests from the trade

16 community, based on regulatory needs by other

17 agencies, under which any future organic product

18 work would fall into would be this what we call

19 post-core. We've completed Core A.

20 It undertakes the essential trade

21 functions that we have been provided and we have

22 implemented. But there's a lot of, not only
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1 operations and maintenance work to be done in

2 this post-2016, but there's also a lot of, what

3 we call enhancements to be made to the system

4 that are on behalf of our various stakeholders

5 and partners. As Mike alluded to earlier,

6 various federal agencies have, obviously, their

7 own requirements for admissibility of imported

8 goods into the country, whether that be

9 agricultural requirements or requirements on

10 behalf of the Environmental Protection Agency for

11 ozone-depleting substances or pesticides or

12 various vehicle engine requirements.

13 There's also the National Highway

14 Traffic Safety Administration, NHTSA, which falls

15 under the Department of Transportation, which has

16 its own motor vehicle requirements for entry into

17 the U.S. We also work with the Food and Drug

18 Administration and the Center for Disease Control

19 and Prevention.

20 Both of those agencies, which fall

21 under the Department of Health and Human

22 Services, have their own various requirements,
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1 depending on the law that they're enforcing. 

2 Each of these agencies have personnel that their

3 own personal accounts in ACE to access the system

4 that is used now across the federal government.

5 We're now all working from the same

6 system and are reviewing shipments, either

7 through automated checks that are put in the

8 system on behalf of each agency, or there's often

9 manual review of forms that have not been

10 automated, but actually scanned into the system

11 as part of our document image system, which is a

12 functionality available in ACE, where someone

13 from CDC, for example, could go in and look,

14 check out a form, try to make a determination of

15 whether it's authentic.

16 If not, go back to the broker and

17 request additional information, or they can reach

18 out, they can contact CDP, either at the

19 headquarters level, through the system, or can

20 actually contact other agencies, as well, within

21 the system, if they see something amiss, they

22 want to have another agency take a second look at
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1 something.

2 As I mentioned earlier, each agency

3 has had its own forms, which then we have

4 translated into each agency's own unique PGA

5 message set. When we talk about PGA message set,

6 each one is unique to each agency.

7 AMS has multiple message sets for its

8 various requirements. Other agencies each have

9 their own, as well. Those represent data

10 elements that have been taken from forms that

11 they've -- each agency used to require upon

12 entry, that are now being submitted into a system

13 that can now be analyzed and reviewed in a way

14 that wasn't possible prior to the implementation

15 of ACE. We've learned several things throughout

16 this process that I will cover briefly here, the

17 first of which is the will that's needed from a

18 very high level of leadership in government to

19 actually see this huge project through, to get

20 close to 50 agencies together working toward a

21 common goal.

22 That really accelerated with the
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1 executive order that I mentioned earlier. As you

2 can see here, the programming for ACE actually

3 began in the early 2000s and has been an ongoing

4 process for completion, which officially occurred

5 at the end of last year.

6 In addition to political will and sort

7 of a consensus among various federal agencies

8 that we all have a common interest in pursuing

9 the implementation and continual development of a

10 single system, during that process, we've had to

11 map out what each agency's legal authorities are

12 and to make sure that legal authority, then,

13 translates into what actually can be done by each

14 agency in the system, so that data isn't be

15 shared in a way that's not legal, to ensure that

16 an agency that is able to -- has, actually, what

17 we call border hold authority, is able to place

18 holds on a shipment, either through CBP -- some

19 agencies can request that CBP place a hold on

20 their behalf. A select few are able to place

21 holds on their own.

22 Other agencies, while they have --
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1 technically, they have regulations that prevent

2 goods from coming into the country, unless they

3 meet certain requirements, don't necessarily have

4 the explicit authority to place holds, or the

5 personnel at the border to do so.

6 Not only are there varying legal

7 authorities, but there's also the resource

8 constraints that allow some agencies to have

9 individuals working side by side with my APHIS

10 colleagues and FDA colleagues and U.S. Fish and

11 Wildlife Service at the ports of entry.

12 Other agencies don't have that sort of

13 manpower, and thus rely heavily on us to do

14 things on their behalf, or they are looking at

15 things using their various ACE accounts, and then

16 pursuing various things once they are released

17 into U.S. commerce in various ways. This is just

18 to say that the legal aspect for each agency has

19 played a critical role in carving out each

20 agency's role in ACE. As I mentioned, and this

21 still continues to today, this project has had

22 oversight in the highest levels of the U.S.
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1 government.

2 So not only does monitoring occur at

3 that level, but the heads of the agencies often

4 meet frequently to discuss the progress of ACE,

5 the extent to which various agencies are

6 participating, areas where there may need to be

7 improvement or additional attention is needed.

8 When talking about major enhancements,

9 when talking about funding, as Mike mentioned

10 earlier, the governance board structure that has

11 been in existence throughout the development of

12 ACE is still in place now, as we continue to work

13 to reach consensus on a variety of issues.

14 That includes changes that need to be

15 made in the system as a result of regulatory

16 changes, whether that's statutory laws passed by

17 Congress, or whether that's a regulatory change

18 that an agency makes based on pre-existing

19 statutory authority. We continue to prioritize

20 the changes that are needed based on those

21 requirements, and then from there, once that

22 prioritization takes place, the resources have to
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1 be allocated for development work, whether that's

2 for major projects, or whether that's for

3 tweaking a few things in the system, which we --

4 it's a term that's used as IT best practice,

5 operations and maintenance. That leads into the

6 stakeholder engagement. We work with several

7 bodies within the trade community.

8 That includes our own federal advisory

9 committee, Customs and Border Protection, used

10 for all of our various trade-related missions,

11 but also through the BIEC, the Border Interagency

12 Executive Council, as its own external engagement

13 committee, which is made up of members of the

14 government and the trade community.

15 That gives them a regular chance to

16 voice any concerns they have about using this

17 system to make suggestions, and it gives us a

18 chance to keep them apprised of any changes,

19 system outages in ACE and things like that, so

20 that we're continuing to try to stay on the same

21 page, as the system continues to evolve. This

22 just provides a recent timeline that includes the
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1 December 2016 deadline and some various

2 functionality deployments in the system that have

3 occurred since then. In the system, as I

4 mentioned before -- and I won't repeat much of

5 what I said here, but each agency that obtained

6 ACE accounts and merged into this system, each

7 did its own, what we term pilot, which is just

8 sort of a test of their own functionality in ACE.

9 For each one, once all of the IT

10 development work was done in a testing

11 environment, we worked with members of the trade

12 community, which would have to file the data that

13 is required by each agency, and conducted a pilot

14 that was on a voluntary basis. We worked with

15 the trade community on a pretty -- a close

16 working relationship to test the submission of

17 the PGA message set for each agency prior to what

18 we call mandatory implementation of that message

19 set.

20 That pilot process serves as a best

21 practice for going forward for creation of future

22 functionality. Just to reiterate some of the key
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1 benefits for the other agencies -- and this

2 speaks to what Mike was mentioning earlier about

3 the savings of time and resources, the increased

4 visibility of data, since we're all looking at

5 the same system, the cross-communication among

6 agencies within ACE, and the elimination of

7 paper. Through this process, we've eliminated

8 hundreds of forms, due to the translation of the

9 data into message set data, which is filed for

10 those entries that a given agency requires. This

11 is just a quick overview of various benefits, not

12 just for the government side, but for all those

13 participating in the process.

14 Just some key lessons learned that we,

15 I think, definitely, at CBP, but as probably a

16 government, as a whole, is to, at the very

17 beginning, really go through the process of

18 figuring out what our end goal looks like at a

19 pretty specific level, so that we all know what

20 exactly we're working toward and to, throughout

21 the process, continue to evaluate readiness,

22 continue to look for problems that may exist,
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1 identify them quickly, and to ensure that we're

2 each -- not only within the government, but also

3 the trade community, we're all working at

4 relatively the same pace.

5 Once the deadline comes around, we're

6 all at a point where we can then go make this a

7 mandatory process, and we're all comfortable

8 doing it. Then at the end, once it's done,

9 looking back to try to see where things went

10 right, see where things went wrong, look at what

11 has to be done going forward. This just gives

12 some information about how to access our website

13 and find out additional information about ACE.

14 That also includes information about

15 our oversight bodies, the other agencies we work

16 with, subscriptions to various messaging services

17 that we provide that send automatic notifications

18 to those on the list for a wide variety of

19 issues. That's it for me. Thank you.

20 DR. LEWIS: Thank you, Daniel. I'd

21 like to now shift gears and turn to our colleague

22 from the Animal and Plant Health Inspection
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1 Service. As Jenny mentioned before, we have

2 developed a memorandum of understanding between

3 our office and Animal and Plant Health Inspection

4 Service. With that, we're pleased to have

5 Matthew Farmer talk about his work in this area

6 from his respective organization.

7 MR. FARMER: That was an interesting

8 way to start. Thank you to the Board and to NOP

9 for inviting me to come speak to you today. My

10 name is Matthew Farmer, and no, it's not a cover

11 name for USDA that they just assign people that

12 have to come to meetings. I work in Riverdale,

13 Maryland, out of our D.C. office. I have a few

14 topics we'd like to cover today, look at the

15 APHIS mission and our safeguarding continuum

16 model, some market access and regulatory process,

17 also the inspection process, some initiatives we

18 have going on in APHIS, and some resources.

19 Again, this USDA org chart, which was

20 taken from the website on Saturday, absolutely,

21 there will be changes. There has been changes to

22 it already. If you look down in the lower
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1 right-hand side, you see the undersecretary for

2 marketing and regulatory programs, and you'll see

3 AMS. Right below that, you'll see APHIS, or the

4 Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service.

5 You'll also see GIPSA, or the grain

6 and packers. I believe they're getting moved

7 under AMS in the future. That's why that org

8 chart's going to change. As you can see, it's a

9 very robust org chart. We'll go into the APHIS

10 mission. The Animal and Plant Health Inspection

11 Service is a multi-faceted agency with a broad

12 mission area that includes protecting and

13 promoting U.S. agriculture health, regulating

14 genetically engineered organisms, administering

15 the Animal Welfare Act, and carrying out wildlife

16 damage management activities. These efforts

17 support the overall mission of USDA, which is to

18 protect and promote food, agriculture, natural

19 resources, and related issues. Specifically,

20 within APHIS we cover the animal, plant -- the

21 Plant Protection Act of 2000 and the Animal

22 Protection Act of 2001.
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1 Those are promulgated in 7 CFR for the

2 plant side and 9 CFR for the animal side. We

3 also do work with Fish and Wildlife on some 50

4 CFR issues. There's the breakdown of what APHIS

5 looks like, animal care, BRS, or the Bio

6 Regulatory Service, international service, plant

7 protection and quarantine is where I reside,

8 veterinary service and wildlife service. I

9 mentioned the safeguarding continuum.

10 It's more of a safeguarding model. 

11 Another way to think about it is the layers of

12 protection APHIS employs to keep invasive plant

13 pests and animal disease out of the United

14 States. We begin at the top of the circle. 

15 There's the offshore programs. Again, there's no

16 better way to keep dangerous or invasive pests

17 out than to stop them in the countries where

18 they're at. We move on to the permitting, which

19 a permit basically advises an importer what the

20 requirements are to bring something into the

21 United States, what our APHIS requirements are. 

22 It spells those out. The purple box is the
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1 border and port inspection. That's the box that

2 I write policy for.

3 To explain that, the events of

4 September 11, 2001 created the Department of

5 Homeland Security Customers and Border

6 Protection. During that, in March 1, 2003, the

7 plant protection and quarantine officers at our

8 ports of entry were transferred -- 2,300

9 inspectors were transferred from USDA to the

10 newly created department, where they reside

11 today.

12 The way that we fund those inspections

13 at our ports of entry is through APHIS user fees. 

14 Those are collected monies to pay for the

15 inspections of the importations. I'll move on

16 quickly. We also do have a pest identification

17 service, and we work with the Smithsonian, but we

18 do have identifiers located throughout the

19 country. We have a Smuggling Interdiction and

20 Trade Compliance group. That's the SITC box. We

21 also have new pest detection and response. What

22 that is, that's our surveillance network here in
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1 the U.S. We survey for various pests. The last

2 one is our pest eradication and management. Let

3 me make this point. APHIS is an emergency

4 agency.

5 That means 24/7, we have to respond to

6 outbreaks, whether it be a fruit fly outbreak in

7 Florida, which has seen a few of those, likewise

8 in California, any of our citrus producing --

9 citrus greening, which is currently marching

10 westward toward California.

11 These are some of the invasive pests

12 that have made it in. Moving along, so that we

13 can definitely get some questions in. The market

14 access and regulatory approval process. I

15 outlined the steps. I'll go through them pretty

16 quickly, but I will be here for the questions

17 from the panel, but also from the audience.

18 Afterwards, I will be available for

19 any questions regarding any of this. There's the

20 pre-petition planning, which is does the U.S.

21 have a market for or that consumers would

22 produce. Some of those questions are asked. 
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1 Going through the process, we have the petition

2 process, where we have to be engaged by the

3 national plant protection organization of another

4 country to gain market access for that commodity. 

5 They have to request of the United States,

6 specifically APHIS, to enter a commodity to the

7 United States. In turn, we work with them. They

8 would provide a host pest list.

9 We would review that through our

10 Center for Plant Health, Science, and Technology,

11 out of Raleigh. They would work through and

12 perform a pest risk analysis. Out of that, there

13 may be mitigations to allow the entry of that

14 commodity to come into the United States, whether

15 that's in the operational work plan, whether it's

16 a systems approach or IPM, or integrated pest

17 management, or some other mitigation, such as

18 chemical treatment or, for mangoes out of Brazil,

19 hot water dipping or irradiation.

20 Again, I'm going to cover this really

21 quickly because I know you did not come here to

22 talk about rulemaking. But I did want to explain
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1 an interesting thing that happened in 2007. The

2 standard process of rulemaking takes several

3 years. We moved to the notice based, which

4 streamlines it, shortens the time frame, but

5 there are some requirements. Those requirements,

6 the commodity would have to be subject to

7 inspection, has to come from a designated

8 pest-free area. There would be some

9 phytosanitary requirements, and it's for

10 commercial entry only. I did put up there, if

11 you want to look, it's 319.56-4 for the full

12 criteria.

13 The steps after regulatory approval is

14 how we operationally figure that out for entry. 

15 Those, we have manuals that Customs and Border

16 Protection agriculture specialists use at our

17 ports of entry. Again, we have to define those

18 conditions for entry in our permit and,

19 ultimately, an operational work plan with the

20 country of origin.

21 Additionally, we do have to inform

22 customs of that, of the requirements, so that --
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1 there may be cutting requirements and other

2 operational concerns that customs would have. 

3 The key there is it also lends us to opening up a

4 pre-clearance plan if the country so chooses to

5 have that done offshore. I did put this up

6 there. This is one of the steps is our

7 phytosanitary treatment. It's our operational

8 guide for selecting and conducting quarantine

9 treatments. The procedures and treatment

10 schedules in this manual, they're

11 administratively authorized for APHIS to prevent

12 the movement of agriculture pests into or within

13 the United States. Listed treatments include

14 chemical treatments, such as fumigation with

15 methyl bromide, and non-chemical treatments with

16 heat, cold, or irradiation.

17 Quickly, I put up the agriculture

18 quarantine process. I believe it was covered

19 earlier by Dr. Tucker. The key question is can

20 this commodity come in? You're an importer, and

21 you want to bring this commodity in. There's

22 steps that you can go to. One of them is
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1 obtaining a broker. The broker understands the

2 entry process and how to look that up.

3 But you can also go to the APHIS

4 website. There's the fruit and vegetable import

5 requirements, or FAVIR. I'll have a link to that

6 later on, in one or two more slides. There's

7 certain entry requirements for a commodity,

8 notice of arrival, import permit. It may or may

9 not have a phytosanitary certificate requirement. 

10 There's keys. The inspection of a commodity was

11 covered. A pest is found. There's only certain

12 things that can happen to that shipment. I did

13 want to clarify this. If there is a pest that is

14 not known to occur in the United States, and it's

15 deemed invasive, we only have three options. You

16 can ultimately destroy the shipment. The other

17 option would be if there is a treatment available

18 out of the treatment manual.

19 The third option is to re-export to

20 the country of origin. I will add that CBP ag

21 specialists -- this is kind of a neat fact --

22 submit, yearly, over 50,000 pests on imported
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1 commodities. That ranges up to 90,000. Year to

2 year, it's just an amazing amount of work that

3 CBP does on APHIS's behalf. I wanted to put this

4 picture up there. This is, again, the CBP ag

5 specialist.

6 This is out of the Miami port of

7 entry, air cargo. This was close -- it was in

8 between Mother's Day and Valentine's Day, the two

9 biggest days that they receive shipments, but

10 amazing amount of shipments that they receive. 

11 They're actively looking for pests on the

12 flowers. Some ongoing initiatives in the future. 

13 Again, I won't belabor the point, but the ACE

14 ITDS. We're working internally, within APHIS,

15 for animal care, BRS, PPQ, and VS. We're also

16 looking forward. We've implemented, for our

17 Quarantine 37, or propagative material that's

18 imported, the risk-based sampling at our plant

19 inspection stations. That's been a resounding

20 success.

21 We're looking at implementation of

22 risk-based sampling in the Quarantine 56, which
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1 is fruits and vegetables. In the coming years,

2 we will have that availability. That's similar

3 to what FDA employs currently and what the

4 Australians are employing. We will look at

5 streamlining our permits. We're currently

6 building a system that's in development to also

7 engage ACE. That's our e-file.

8 That's being worked on. Additionally,

9 that's not up there, we're working on

10 government-to-government certifications. That's

11 for our phytosanitary and sanitary certificates. 

12 That's government-to-government validation and

13 verification of the permit for entry. That will

14 be a big help to speeding and facilitating trade. 

15 I mentioned some resources. A great one is the

16 APHIS Stakeholder Registry. There's the link for

17 that. You can go to APHIS's home page. There's

18 a very prominent Stakeholder Registry notice that

19 you can click on. But I also mentioned the fruit

20 and vegetable import requirement. You can go to

21 that and click on any of APHIS's manuals and take

22 a look at the entry requirements.
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1 Additionally, if you have some more

2 questions and you don't get in touch with me

3 today, you can reach our customer service call

4 center that's listed up there. Again, that's a

5 summary of what we covered. At that point, I'll

6 turn it over to Dr. Tucker. Thank you very much.

7 DR. LEWIS: Thank you, Matthew. We

8 just heard, leading from Michael's presentation,

9 what's happening with our other federal partners

10 Matthew mentioned, in terms of Animal and Plant

11 Health Inspection Service, and Daniel, Custom and

12 Border Protection.

13 We're now going to bring this back, in

14 terms of what's happening more from an AMS,

15 specifically from a National Organic Programs

16 perspective. Dr. Tucker will be sharing that,

17 bringing us to what's happening with NOP. Then

18 secondly, providing more clarity and refinement

19 in terms of what we're actually asking the Board

20 to do, in terms of looking at imports in the

21 organic sector. Let me just also mention to the

22 public that the slides that you're seeing today
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1 will be posted and available on the NOP website. 

2 I know Matthew and Daniel gave some resources, so

3 they'll be available for the public to look at

4 that. Let me now turn to my colleague, Dr.

5 Jennifer Tucker, providing an NOP perspective. 

6 Thank you.

7 DR. TUCKER: I think we're still

8 looking for my slides. I have only three, so if

9 you can't find them quickly, I can talk about

10 what's on them. They're in the P drive, NOSB

11 meeting, Jacksonville. There's a subfolder

12 called Imports Panel. It's in there. I'm going

13 to go ahead and get started. You've learned a

14 lot about AMS, APHIS, and CBP, and their

15 respective roles.

16 They are truly partners in organic

17 integrity with us, and that's going to do nothing

18 but increase as we move ahead. An awful lot of

19 our work in responding to the OIG recommendations

20 that you heard about earlier are going to hinge

21 on all the work that you just learned about here,

22 so I thought it was important to really
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1 understand the landscape that we are working in. 

2 We are one of 47 federal partners here, and each

3 of those have lots of different programs in them. 

4 The complexity of this is really quite

5 significant, so very much appreciate Matt,

6 Daniel, and Mike for joining us to talk through

7 all that, so thanks so much.

8 I'm going to close with three topics

9 -- there we are -- a quick review of our work in

10 NOP, a look at what we're doing next, and some

11 specific requests we'd like the Board to

12 consider. First, our current work. In the NOP

13 update, I noted that we are continuing to

14 emphasize data quality and content, so quality

15 and quantity, through INTEGRITY. We are

16 continuing to develop our accreditation system

17 and expanding our work into international

18 systems.

19 For example, export certificates. You

20 just heard a lot about import certificates. 

21 We're also working with export certificates. In

22 the last couple of months, we were able to invest
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1 and begin some development work in creating

2 electronic export certificates for U.S.

3 producers, using an existing AMS system called

4 ETDE. It's electronic trade document something,

5 but it has to do with electronic documents in the

6 system. We call it ETDE. We are starting with

7 populating an electronic certificate for U.S.

8 operations exporting to Mexico, and then we'll

9 turn to developing an export certificate to the

10 EU. For those who work in that area, the system

11 will connect with TRACES.

12 As part of this, we are working to

13 reduce burden and errors, by using certifier and

14 operation contact information from INTEGRITY to

15 pre-populate certificates. Now that we have the

16 investment of INTEGRITY -- again, we finished

17 development on that -- we already have a very

18 stable baseline of operation data, that can then

19 be pushed out to other systems, as needed, which

20 would save a lot of data entry for certifiers, as

21 they're working with these systems, so as they

22 feed into other systems.
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1 As I mentioned in the NOP update, we

2 have several actions involving technology that

3 are going to respond to OIG audit report

4 recommendations. One of these is the very

5 detailed process of building these proposed

6 message sets to send to CBP. Again, we're one of

7 many programs that want to be able to have

8 message sets in CBP. They, again, are what will

9 allow ACE to generate that organic import

10 certificate. The goal is to first learn how ACE

11 will generate and accept import certificates

12 under our equivalency agreements.

13 In the future, once we learn how to do

14 that, that import certificate capability could be

15 expanded to cover imports from international

16 organic businesses outside existing trade

17 agreements. All of this work would rely on

18 having specific regulatory authorities. That

19 kept on coming up in Daniel's presentation. You

20 must have regulatory authority. That's always

21 the first bullet.

22 Understanding how our regulations fit
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1 within that universe is a very, very important

2 first step. We'll get input from CBP on how that

3 could unfold. As Mike mentioned, we have been

4 able to start the message sets already. Again,

5 the export certificates we're working on is

6 already funded. Lots of OIG audit

7 recommendations that relate to this area, so

8 first steps of many, many to come. For upcoming

9 work, we're starting to explore the development

10 and implementation of an international supply

11 chain traceability system using what is called

12 Blockchain or similar technologies. These

13 technologies could allow certifiers to approve

14 transactions along an organic supply chain, in

15 real time, enabling them to detect falsification

16 of documentation and to trace inventory counts

17 across the supply chain.

18 This type of system could also allow

19 the NOP to audit across a supply chain, really

20 fulfilling the goal of tracing product from farm

21 to market and back again. Again -- I said the

22 term already -- we're learning a lot about
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1 Blockchain. It's both a governance and a

2 technology framework that can be used to create

3 electronic networks to connect players and

4 products through transactions along a supply

5 chain.

6 For example, a farmer could, say, use

7 an app on a phone to enter the availability of a

8 certain amount of organic commodity, say corn. 

9 The certifier could approve it as a valid

10 product. Then when somebody else on the chain,

11 this Blockchain, takes ownership of a certain

12 amount of the corn, the chain could record the

13 changes in inventory as it passes from one player

14 to another, all the way to the receiving

15 processor. Blockchains are designed to confirm

16 transactions as valid and authentic. There are

17 lots of different ideas for how this kind of a

18 system could work. It could be a distributed

19 industry-run system, with federal oversight.

20 Given the way organic certification is

21 structured in the law, it is a public-private

22 partnership, with the certifiers and the industry
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1 doing a lot of the transaction work directly. So

2 it could be an industry-run system with federal

3 oversight. It could also be a federalized data

4 warehouse. It could involve tracking devices

5 associated with shipments. It could involve

6 global positioning system data.

7 It could pull acreage data from

8 integrity. There might be many, many, many other

9 options. We are in the earliest stages of

10 envisioning the different possible concepts of

11 operation and look forward to learning together

12 what the possibilities here might be. Let's turn

13 to how the NOSB can help. Paul opened by

14 reminding that we had sent a memo to the Board

15 this summer, so here's some specifics, in terms

16 of ways in which the NOSB might be able to help. 

17 You learned a lot about government systems

18 involved in overseeing imports, but these are

19 areas we think the NOSB could provide proposals

20 to advance our work in this area. We're open to

21 other ideas here. This is a starting point for

22 consideration.
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1 First, No. 1, as representatives of

2 the organic community, provide your insights to

3 USDA on the respective roles of industry,

4 certifiers, and AMS, when it comes to protecting

5 the organic integrity of imports. Again, you've

6 learned a whole lot about the government systems

7 involved here, given the structure of the organic

8 system that we have, that includes the government

9 certifiers and trade.

10 How could that framework -- within

11 that framework, how could we consider new

12 technologies and practices? These insights need

13 to stay within our existing regulatory framework

14 and authority, so start with the system we have

15 and contemplate what the different roles could

16 be. What do you see as best practices for how

17 industry, certifiers, and AMS should each engage

18 with this problem through the existing system? 

19 Again, you've gotten a glance at what the

20 technology side looks like on the government

21 side. What roles could industry and certifiers,

22 what could those roles look like. Second, the
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1 current accreditation system focuses, really, on

2 audits of specific certifiers. We go out and do

3 on-the-ground audits and witness inspections with

4 specific certifiers.

5 We have started to talk about how to

6 design and implement full supply chain audits. 

7 Often, complex supply chains involve many

8 certifiers operating in many countries. How

9 could supply chain audits that truly trace from

10 farm to table and back again be structured and

11 implemented? That's a proposal that could really

12 help us consider new ways of approaching these

13 problems.

14 Third, I gave a brief overview of

15 Blockchain. As representatives of the organic

16 community, if that kind of international supply

17 chain traceability system were to be implemented,

18 who do you think should be doing what? What

19 could the chain look like, in terms of

20 governance? This is a very, very new and

21 emerging area. If you chose to really dive into

22 this item, we'd give you a crash course on
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1 Blockchain. We've done some learning, to date,

2 on Blockchain and different ways it could

3 potentially be used, so we would give you more

4 background on that particular technology. 

5 Finally, No. 4, inspectors really do play an

6 absolutely critical role.

7 They must know how to and effectively

8 complete advanced auditing activities, such as

9 mass balance and traceback audits. We know the

10 performance evaluations are a critical aspect of

11 ensuring that inspectors are able to do this

12 really complex work. What evaluation criteria

13 and testing should certifiers be implementing to

14 ensure their inspectors are skilled in these

15 audit activities, particularly as supply chains

16 become more complex?

17 How should certifiers assess and

18 document these skills as part of the performance

19 evaluation process? That's it. We're not

20 expecting the Board to take on all these items,

21 but these are needs that we've identified in NOP,

22 that we believe the Board could have unique
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1 insights about. So we're sharing them with the

2 Board today, and with the public, to get you

3 started on what is very clearly a very, very

4 complex topic. I'm going to close, again, by

5 thanking Mike, Daniel, and Matt, really

6 appreciate your being here, so thanks.

7 DR. LEWIS: Before I turn the meeting

8 back to our chair, Tom Chapman, I want to echo my

9 colleagues, thanking, also, Jenny and my federal

10 colleagues for all your work preparing for

11 today's import panel and to now move the

12 discussion to you, to members of the Board, in

13 terms of this is the first educational

14 opportunity and the background to help you

15 provide advice to us and recommendations on

16 improving oversight imported organic products. 

17 Tom, the floor is yours.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I'm going to

19 start with a few questions, and then open it up

20 to the Board to ask questions, as well. I see

21 you, Francis, but I'm going to start with a few,

22 and then I'll move on to other members. I see
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1 Harriet and Dan, so one second. First off, one

2 of the notes that was raised, I think especially

3 by you, Michael, is there's 47 agencies, and

4 there's a need to prioritize amongst all of them

5 how systems in ACE are set up. I guess I'm

6 curious to know how is that prioritization set,

7 and what can be done by the NOSB, the AMS, or the

8 community to sufficiently prioritize the organic

9 integration into that system, based on the OIG

10 audit?

11 MR. DURANDO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

12 Probably what I was referring to, now that ACE is

13 built, and it's operating, or as we say, in

14 production, we now have all of these agencies at

15 various stages of completion of their own

16 systems. The actual core development, as Daniel

17 referred to it, for ACE is completed.

18 CBP doesn't have core development

19 contractors on hand at this stage. The next step

20 is how does CBP, moving forward, prioritize the

21 work that is put before it from all of these 47

22 agencies? One of the governance entities I
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1 referred to was the Border Interagency Executive

2 Council.

3 Not to try to pass it off on other

4 workgroups or acronyms, so I apologize in

5 advance, but that is really where that group has

6 been toiling now for a number of months. I'm

7 being very transparent. How does one reconcile

8 not really competing needs -- we're all

9 complementary, as government agencies, having to

10 work together, but if everybody's lining up with

11 work, how does that get prioritized, given the

12 fact that you're going to have enough contractors

13 only to do so much at a time? That process isn't

14 resolved at this time.

15 I don't want to get too far ahead, but

16 if NOP has a new build with, say, a message set,

17 it might really depend on how large that is, what

18 the level of effort is, as they say. Of course,

19 if NOP's got the money ready to go -- I know

20 there's been efforts that Jenny's referred to on

21 the hill to line that up -- that can play a role.

22 Last, but not least, then maybe I'll
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1 see if Daniel wants to add anything, is a lot of

2 that prioritization may come once we have a full

3 complement of political appointees, not only in

4 the Department of Agriculture, but in all of the

5 other departments around the federal government.

6 Because those political appointees

7 will have significant -- underline significant --

8 impact on what gets prioritized. With all due

9 respect to any of us in federal service, there's

10 a big difference between a Mike Durando or a

11 Jenny Tucker or a Matt Farmer trying to stake out

12 a priority with CBP, as compared to, say, our

13 deputy secretary or our secretary of agriculture. 

14 Indeed, the whole build out for ACE, and the big

15 push for the last two or three years, was

16 actually overseen at the deputy secretary level. 

17 We have a deputy secretary now.

18 We have an undersecretary now, I'm

19 told. Since I left town yesterday, that's taken

20 care of. It's early. We don't know what's

21 happening today. But that's going to play a

22 role. In the end, I think the mission is there. 
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1 It's a matter of working through the dollars and

2 the resources. Daniel, would you want to add to

3 that?

4 MR. COLLIER: Sure, I could add a

5 little bit. Just to add on to what Mike said,

6 regarding the stage where we are now, the ongoing

7 operations and maintenance of the system involves

8 not only what we call critical fixes to the

9 system -- when problems arise, when bugs are

10 identified, when certain minor changes need to be

11 made, we have the funding to do that right now,

12 which is what we're focused on, essentially, to

13 keep the system going. In addition to that,

14 there is what we call -- what was once core work,

15 work that was originally designated as work that

16 needed to be done prior to December 2016 that,

17 for various reasons, has now been grouped into

18 post-core work now. On top of the operations and

19 maintenance, after that, the priority for us has

20 been completion of that work, which was

21 originally identified as core.

22 The third level is now the post-core
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1 development, purely post-core, so not operations

2 and maintenance, not holdover from core

3 development. That involves, as I mentioned

4 earlier, various requests for development from

5 the agencies within CBP, as well as from the

6 trade.

7 As Mike mentioned, that process for

8 prioritization is still in the process of being

9 ironed out, but I will say that an agency that is

10 able to fund its own request, is able to help pay

11 for that development, will most likely be higher

12 on the priority list, and/or an agency that has

13 the regulations to back up the requirement, so in

14 other words, an agency that is mandated to

15 fulfill a certain regulatory requirement that

16 currently is not in place in ACE. That would be

17 something we -- that's another factor that we

18 would look at that would drive that request

19 towards the top of our priority list.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. There was

21 mentioned several times, and you almost were

22 touching it, I think, there on the end, about
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1 ensuring that the agencies have the sufficient

2 legal authority and regulatory systems in place

3 -- and maybe, Jenny, this question is best for

4 you. Under OFPA and other statutes out there,

5 does the NOP have sufficient regulatory authority

6 to control imports through the ACE system?

7 DR. TUCKER: That's a good question. 

8 The act prohibits the representation of a product

9 as organic unless it's certified. We do not

10 have, right now, stop import or stop sale

11 authority. If we could identify the product and

12 get the information about it, right now, we don't

13 have the authority to say stop, you can't sell

14 that.

15 I think we have the authority to get

16 -- I think, I hope -- into the system -- this is

17 part in our OIG audit response, where we say we

18 have to have conversations with CBP about how do

19 they interpret our authority, and what we have

20 right now, what would that allow CBP to do and

21 what wouldn't it allow CBP to do? We know we

22 don't have stop sale authority, but we have other
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1 authority, so how would they interpret that? 

2 That's, again, the beginning of a conversation

3 that is real critical in the next few months

4 here.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Something like a stop

6 import, stop sale authority would be through an

7 act of Congress; it's not a regulatory thing?

8 DR. TUCKER: I believe that would have

9 to be a change to the act.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Then one

11 last, and I'll open it up to -- I have Frances,

12 Harriet, then Dan -- in broad timeline

13 perspectives, you talked about starting with

14 equivalencies, and then expanding to

15 non-equivalencies. Do you have a rough time

16 frame, the roughest of time frames?

17 DR. TUCKER: Our first step is going

18 to be coming up with this concept of operations,

19 working with CBP to identify the requirements. I

20 think that is the really -- planning always, done

21 well, takes a good amount of time. By July of

22 next year is when we owe OIG our concept of
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1 operations. I think we'll know a whole lot more

2 by then. At that point, we've already started

3 conversations. We've already had somebody who's

4 literally sat in front of a word processor and

5 actually written the message set. We have

6 somebody who's -- anything that doesn't cost

7 contract dollars right now we've already started

8 on. We've sent over draft message sets, how do

9 these look? That conversation has started.

10 I think once you get the mechanics

11 figured out for a certain set of countries, my

12 guess is that it's not hard, necessarily, to

13 scale out. That is, again, though, another limit

14 -- right now, import certificates are required

15 under the equivalency agreements, which is why

16 we're starting there. They're not required for

17 any other country.

18 That's another layer of that

19 regulatory complexity that we would need to talk

20 to CBP. Right now, important certificates are

21 not part of the regs. Would they have to be for

22 CBP to accept them, or can they go ahead and say
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1 stick them in there? I don't know the answer to

2 that, and I don't want to put them on the spot. 

3 Again, part of the beginning of a conversation of

4 how the authorities work.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Real quick, if we wanted

6 to expand import certificates to all imports,

7 would that be a regulatory change only, or would

8 it also require a legislative change?

9 DR. TUCKER: I believe that could be

10 achieved through regulations, but anything is

11 stronger when it's at an act. The way the

12 hierarchy works is there's an act, and then

13 there's a reg. Daniel's nodding, so I assume

14 that they would think that an act would have more

15 power than a reg, but I do believe that's a

16 requirement in the reg. These guys are looking

17 at me. I assume you're going to wave if I say --

18 MR. DURANDO: I might just chime in

19 here. I'm not versed in the organic act. Let me

20 put that right out there. But as a person who

21 oversees an operation, that's what we do is

22 regulatory work, 100-150 rulemakings a year. It
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1 really is a matter of taking a look at that

2 statute.

3 We, the agency, has to sit down with

4 our Office of the General Counsel and figure out

5 how much wiggle room you've got with the words

6 that are actually in the law. How far can you

7 go? Then back to Jenny's point, from there --

8 this is what Daniel and the CBP's going to look

9 for -- once you figure out your wiggle room and

10 how far you can take the authority, then you've

11 got to get it in real words in the regulations,

12 so that the regulations spell out -- that's where

13 the detail is. That's the execution of it, what

14 you can and you cannot do.

15 I know from experience at working on

16 CEMS with CBP, there was a time where CBP would

17 not even give an agency access to the data, just

18 raw data coming through the ACE portal, without

19 showing them your regulatory authority to even

20 see that data. They're very, very protective of

21 that, as they should be. To set up a system down

22 the road with NOP, these message sets or
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1 whatever, they're going to want to see where's

2 your authority to do this.

3 There'll be some work to do. Jenny's

4 right. It's really hard to say exactly do you

5 have to make a statutory change or regulatory

6 change. I'm not versed in it, but it's all very

7 doable, but it's a lot of work and our attorneys

8 do get involved within our Office of the General

9 Counsel.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Francis.

11 DR. THICKE: I really like that, what

12 Jenny suggested, exploring the development of an

13 international supply chain traceability system. 

14 During the break time, somebody reminded me that

15 OCIA always had these transaction certificates,

16 so that if a farmer had 100 acres of corn, got

17 150 bushels an acre, that'd be 15,000 bushels.

18 Every time that farmer sold any corn,

19 a transaction certificate would go with it. That

20 farmer could sell no more than $15,000 worth of

21 transaction certificates. The buyer maybe bought

22 200,000 bushels, would have to have a transaction
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1 certificate for every bushel total. That could

2 be done electronically. I think that would be

3 really a way to go. It's nothing radical. It's

4 something we've done in the past.

5 DR. TUCKER: Thanks for that feedback. 

6 That's a great example. I think different

7 certifiers are doing different things. There are

8 some certifiers who are already doing this. They

9 are tracking inventories. Yes, that's a great

10 example of how this could work out. Then the

11 question is how do you get that into, then, a

12 system where data between certifiers can flow

13 over an entire supply chain? I think that has --

14 it's a lot of very interesting potential. Thanks

15 for the example.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

17 MS. BEHAR: I understand that we're

18 talking -- the regulatory need for a government

19 stop sale, but I am wondering if, through ACE, if

20 the NOP can become a PGA -- I'm trying to work

21 all my acronyms here -- or other way for there to

22 be a notification, especially just something
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1 simple, like it came in as an organic product,

2 and it was fumigated with a prohibited substance.

3 Would there at least be some kind of

4 notification because we wouldn't necessarily have

5 to have a government stop sale on it. We have a

6 robust certification system, ourselves. If

7 certifiers were aware that this -- there was a

8 compromise to the organic integrity of the

9 product somehow -- I just don't know how NOP

10 becomes a PGA through ACE.

11 MR. FARMER: This is Matt Farmer. 

12 Great question. You're absolutely right. There

13 is an in-between period between, maybe, if they

14 have to look at, maybe, a reg change or a new

15 act, which that would be a huge undertaking. We

16 have found a temporary bridge. You're absolutely

17 right. In working with PPQ, Plant Protection and

18 Quarantine deputy administrator and Deputy

19 Administrator McAvoy, through that MOU, we did

20 arrange for information to be passed over. We're

21 still working out the kinks in that system. When

22 you do any systems change, there's a process in
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1 there. We did it, actually, pretty quickly. We

2 were able to stand that up.

3 I did want to point out that we

4 trained APHIS employees on how to recognize

5 organic shipments. When organic shipments come

6 into a port of entry, there's not the big label

7 up there on a shipment. It could be a bulk

8 vessel of grain that has no labeling and has no

9 documentation. It's not coming under a tariff

10 code for organic commodities.

11 That was provided by the organic

12 program to assist us with training APHIS

13 personnel in how to identify. We provided a

14 couple changes to two systems. We added an NOP

15 disclaimer, which helps them on their compliance

16 and enforcement side. Additionally, when we do

17 have information that leads us to believe this is

18 an organic shipment, that we did apply a

19 phytosanitary treatment, we do notify the organic

20 program. Like I said, some of that is right now,

21 I'm picking up the phone and notifying them, but

22 we're working out to have it automated within the
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1 system.

2 MS. BEHAR: Then the NOP, would it

3 have access to your system? They're not an

4 approved PGA yet, is that right?

5 MR. FARMER: No, but within USDA and

6 our MOU, we've worked to provide information of

7 possible non-compliance with their reg.

8 DR. TUCKER: A very quick comment on

9 that. One of the things we're learning about

10 with APHIS is how does that data come in. It

11 doesn't necessarily come in and say the certifier

12 is this certifier, or this is the operation. It

13 doesn't necessarily come in as data that's

14 immediately I can send that to the certifier.

15 Some of it is we have to figure out

16 how do we read the data that's coming in to us

17 and, frankly, notice some pattern. If we know

18 that there are certain fruits or vegetables that

19 are from a certain country are always going to be

20 treated, so they really shouldn't be sold as

21 organic in the U.S., knowing where those trends

22 are. Again, I'm going to, one more time, plug
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1 for the importance of using the taxonomy in the

2 organic integrity database that can help us more

3 quickly identify which certifiers are operating

4 in which countries, with which commodities, so

5 that we can more easily take that data from APHIS

6 and let's run a very quick report on which

7 certifiers are working with this commodity, from

8 this country. That would be -- instead of this

9 one off on each shipment, start noticing these

10 trends and get the word out about that, so it is

11 a double feedback loop.

12 MR. DURANDO: Tom, can I just finish

13 up on her question? The whole issue, again, of

14 PGA, don't get too hung up on that. I would

15 encourage you not to. In essence, AMS is a PGA

16 right now. NOP is part of AMS.

17 Actually, as NOP moves forward on

18 whatever its solutions are, different message set

19 or sets, plural, etc., those ultimately become

20 encompassed in an overarching document called a

21 CATAIR document, which stands -- we had to look

22 it up. I couldn't remember it. It's the CBP and
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1 Trade Automated Interface Requirements. AMS and

2 every other PGA has its own CATAIR. We moved

3 forward with CBP as an agency. That opportunity

4 is there to make that happen, just a matter of

5 time.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Could you fit more

7 acronyms in that sentence?

8 MR. DURANDO: We even had to look it

9 up. I use the word every day.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Real quick, the

11 notifications that you're talking about now, is

12 that mostly based on organic-specific HS tariff

13 codes?

14 MR. FARMER: No, it could be anything

15 from -- because shipments will come in that will

16 say organic, but it's not under -- it's under the

17 conventional tariff code. It could be labeling

18 on the box. It could be any other documents that

19 are provided with the entry that leads them to

20 believe it's organic.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Then under the current

22 system, if an organic HS tariff code, though,
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1 does have a fumigation on it, is there -- are

2 those caught, or would those -- it's potential if

3 it was noticed by the person in charge?

4 MR. FARMER: Definitely. Within the

5 system, it would be identified, and it would be

6 passed along to NOP.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Dan, then Dave.

8 DR. SEITZ: Michael, I'd like to

9 understand a little bit more what the final

10 system is going to look like that you've

11 described. It sounds like with the paper review

12 that you did initially, that was probably a

13 spot-checking system, right? You couldn't

14 possibly look at the paperwork for all the

15 imports coming in.

16 MR. DURANDO: It was a de facto spot

17 check. Let me leave it that way.

18 DR. SEITZ: Okay. It sounds as if

19 what you're aiming for is being able to

20 comprehensively make sure all the paperwork is in

21 place for any import through the electronic

22 system. Is that fair, that you would at least be
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1 able to track all the paperwork for every import

2 that's coming in? Is that the goal, or it would

3 still be a de facto spot checking, but just on a

4 much broader scale? Just trying to understand.

5 MR. DURANDO: The goal, and hopefully

6 the outcome, is 100 percent visibility. So every

7 single item that's being imported into the United

8 States, electronically, the documentation has

9 been entered, fields have been filled, and then

10 100 percent of those shipments that require

11 inspection, we would receive electronic

12 notification of that. Our goal is 100 percent

13 reconciliation.

14 DR. SEITZ: Then, as someone who's new

15 to this whole area, I'm curious to know is there

16 regulatory authority to test, in any way,

17 shipments that come in that may be suspect, so,

18 for instance, testing for pesticides that would

19 not be on an organic product? Apart from the

20 paperwork being in place, are there other things

21 that, then, you can do if any questions are

22 raised in your mind?
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1 MR. DURANDO: In my organization, and

2 in our legal authority, we do not have the

3 authority to test for pesticides or require a

4 test. We do have, in an instance or two, the

5 authority to test for aflatoxin. We require

6 that, and it must be within a minimum threshold

7 or maximum threshold to enter. If an agency --

8 I'll go out on a limb -- had the authority to

9 require that all imports be tested for some sort

10 of chemical residue --

11 DR. SEITZ: Or suspect ones.

12 MR. DURANDO: -- or suspect -- and

13 meet a certain standard, could a system be built,

14 similar to ours, that would track that and

15 enforce that? Yes, it could be done, but there

16 would have to be the legal authority to do that. 

17 That's not within the scope of my program.

18 DR. SEITZ: Then a final question is,

19 again, from a naive standpoint, are there typical

20 ways that fraud is perpetrated through imports? 

21 If we're trying to understand how we might

22 address this on an NOSB level, what would be the
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1 two or three typical ways that this happens, if

2 you can even describe that?

3 MR. DURANDO: I'm not sure I would

4 want to go out there. I think more often than

5 not, compliance violations, I want to believe,

6 are inadvertent or unintentional, although

7 probably the most common form, in our case, is

8 for products to be mislabeled, perhaps being a

9 certain classification of a commodity that is

10 exempt, compared to the regulated version of that

11 commodity.

12 You might have mislabeling, or there

13 can be -- we've worked with CBP on a number of

14 cases where product was -- the importer or the

15 broker was assigning an inappropriate HTS code,

16 an HTS code that would cause it to circumvent our

17 regulations. The trick is with the mass volume

18 of traffic entering the United States of product,

19 CBP isn't necessarily in a position to look at a

20 product and say whether the HTS code does or

21 doesn't match.

22 It may be an HTS code for that
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1 commodity, but it's of a classification that

2 there's no way, visually, they could determine. 

3 That would be the other area. We've had a couple

4 instances of that. That would be all I could

5 give you at this point.

6 DR. SEITZ: Great, thanks.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, thank you. I

9 have a question similar to Dan's. There's been

10 quite a change in import/export volume over the

11 last recent years. I was looking at a recent ERS

12 report. Exports of organic products valued $412

13 million in 2011 and $548 million in 2016.

14 During the same time interval, imports

15 were valued, in 2011, at $600 million, so roughly

16 equivalent to exports, but have tripled in the

17 same period of time, to 2016, to $1.65 billion. 

18 In trying, as Dan was asking, to wrap our heads

19 around the capacity of our system to track

20 things, could you guys reflect -- that's a gender

21 neutral, inclusive you folks -- project where are

22 some of the greatest vulnerabilities in
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1 certifying what's going on the ground and in

2 tracking in the pipeline, i.e. in the ships, the

3 documents and all that, when a system is

4 challenged in a way that the sales increased

5 3-fold over a very short period of time?

6 For some of these commodities, like

7 wheat, it increased 25-fold in five years,

8 soybeans and corn 4.2 and 4.4-fold increases in

9 mass of grain coming in. I'm just trying to --

10 related to my morning question about a

11 sensitivity analysis is trying to -- is this a

12 computer tracking problem, or is this an

13 on-the-ground problem? Is it boots on the ground

14 at the ports or in the fields in Turkey and

15 Lithuania? Anybody care to just help enlighten

16 us on that?

17 MR. DURANDO: I guess maybe I'll --

18 maybe Matt's going to say something. I don't

19 have a lot to offer there. In most instances --

20 I know in our case, and maybe one can

21 extrapolate, it's a matter of having -- again,

22 back to the statutory and the regulatory
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1 authority to do something, or to enforce, and

2 then it would be resources, whether it's boots on

3 the ground or automation. I know in the

4 specialty crop, fruit/vegetable specialty crop

5 arena -- I don't have the numbers in front of me,

6 but I know the Department and the trade

7 organizations all report imports of fruits and

8 vegetable specialty crops are continuing to

9 increase.

10 We're a deficit country now. More

11 than 50 percent of our consumption is imported,

12 and that's going to just continue to grow. I

13 would argue maybe in our case, we're meeting that

14 growth or that demand through automation. 

15 There's no other way around it for us. We

16 couldn't put the number of people in place to

17 handle all the paper and everything else. That's

18 what I would offer on that. Matt or Daniel, do

19 you guys have a thought?

20 MR. FARMER: Absolutely. It doesn't

21 matter if I'm wearing an NOP hat or an APHIS hat

22 or a CBP hat. Especially when you're looking at
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1 price differences in commodities, from

2 conventional to organic, you're going to have

3 people try to circumvent the system. What those

4 weaknesses are, they range from certification up

5 through mixing, partial mixing. It runs the

6 gamut. You're absolutely right. With the

7 government-to-government certifications, and with

8 greater information that ACE ITDS will provide, I

9 have no doubt that in the present and moving

10 forward, that we have confidence in the system to

11 determine where those weak points are.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: It would be helpful,

13 and maybe there's not time to get into that now,

14 but it sounds to me like ACE for organic could

15 take a while, it sounds like, from what you

16 presented. It would be helpful for us to, as a

17 Board, think about what is done in the interim.

18 Personally, I still am concerned about

19 whether we have the right kind of boots on the

20 ground ratio to deal with a three-fold increase

21 in imports, but we'll continue to try to figure

22 that out as we go along with some of the
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1 questions that the Board is considering taking

2 on, but thanks for your answers.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you for people

4 paying attention. You'll notice it's 12:30. We

5 are going to run into lunch a bit if the panel

6 experts have time to sit for a few more

7 questions. I think this is an important

8 dialogue, and I would like to make the most use

9 of all you folks' time, if possible. Up next I

10 have ASA, and then I had A-dae.

11 MR. BRADMAN: I just had a brief

12 question. I think it was mostly answered. When

13 you said the goal was to look at basically 100

14 percent of imports, I'm wondering is that going

15 to be phased in, or is that current, and is there

16 a threshold, in terms of volume or tonnage or

17 dollars for different products that would trigger

18 this evaluation, or is the goal really 100

19 percent, and how close to 100 percent are we?

20 MR. DURANDO: To be clear, the law

21 hasn't changed. There always has been a

22 requirement that 100 percent of the products
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1 represented in those 14 commodities in the case

2 study I presented, 100 percent of them must be

3 inspected, of those shipments, before they're

4 allowed to clear into the United States. The

5 challenge, again, has been visibility. I guess

6 you could argue we are phasing it in. I

7 mentioned that we have a pilot program underway. 

8 With that program, it's 5 to 10 percent or so of

9 the imports. The reason we did that wasn't

10 necessarily worrying about catching people and

11 wanted to give them a chance. They've known for

12 years that they have to comply, and we've been

13 out there leveraging penalties and fines and

14 everything else.

15 It was a matter of ensuring, No. 1,

16 that the message sets and everything else was

17 working correctly in ACE, but secondly, make sure

18 that our system, or CEMS, was stable, operating,

19 debugged and everything else.

20 At that point -- the other piece of

21 it, when you're dealing with all of these

22 commodities -- I think Daniel or Matt was
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1 reminding me earlier this morning, it's really

2 the import brokers who are a pivotal entity in

3 this whole process. These are very large

4 operations.

5 They're all having to build out their

6 own systems, their own software, so that it will

7 effectively communicate, if I'm correct, with ACE

8 and such. They're going to be able to message

9 with the rest of the universe. For many of these

10 companies, this is large, large investments in

11 technology, and it also is taking them time. 

12 Some of them have been at it for a year, two,

13 three, four years. A lot of them have been -- we

14 have trade representatives. You have folks like

15 UPS and FedEx and others on that ITDS board of

16 directors. They've all been involved trying to

17 bring the trade along.

18 Yes, it's a phase in, so to speak,

19 with a pilot program, but once we put the

20 regulation in place that says it's mandatory that

21 you file in ACE, it will go, overnight, from 5 or

22 10 or 15 percent to something much closer to 100
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1 percent, and then there will undoubtedly be a

2 lag, not really because of will, a matter of just

3 brokers gearing up fast enough.

4 You'll see, probably, a reshuffling of

5 the trade. They're going to say I need to make

6 sure I have a broker who is ACE compliant. 

7 They're going to gravitate over there while their

8 other broker continues to build out their system.

9 I don't know if that answers your

10 question. Didn't want to go down a rabbit hole

11 there, but it's not -- but there's been no change

12 in our compliance enforcement stance, if you

13 will; 100 percent have always been required to

14 meet those standards.

15 MR. FARMER: Just so we're clear, the

16 APHIS and CBP inspections are for APHIS

17 regulations. I don't believe anyone at a port of

18 entry is looking to see if that shipment that

19 came in is compliant with NOP organic standards

20 unless there was an issue with a pest being found

21 and we treat it.

22 Then we would look at the documents
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1 for NOP and provide that information over. Just

2 so we're clear, because I think some of the

3 questions were about the boots on the ground. 

4 Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no NOP

5 personnel at ports of entry.

6 DR. TUCKER: Right, that's correct. 

7 We have certifiers on one side, and certifiers on

8 the other side. We do not have anyone at the

9 border, nor do we have the authority at the

10 border.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: A-dae.

12 MS. BRIONES: Mr. Farmer, you briefly

13 described one of the ongoing initiatives with

14 ACE. Looking at the biotechnology regulatory

15 services, what data are you tracking in ACE

16 regarding the BRS stuff? Can you just describe

17 that in detail a little more?

18 MR. FARMER: I wish I could. What I

19 can do is get the information of what BRS will

20 be. I know they're part of our APHIS core team. 

21 Their documents for entry requirements, that is a

22 good questions. I definitely will get back to
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1 you on what information they're collecting.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Steve.

3 MR. ELA: Jennifer, as I understand

4 it, given what we've said, regulatory

5 environments -- the organic system is a

6 paper-based system. As you said, we have

7 certifiers here. They generate certificates. We

8 have certifiers over here that are supposed to

9 check those certificates. The only way, at this

10 point, that I see, as I'm hearing, that we can

11 enforce these fraudulent shipments is after the

12 fact of saying you've misused the word organic.

13 DR. TUCKER: I do think there are

14 actions that are being taken and can be taken

15 right now. Yes, we've been spending a lot of

16 time about paperwork and data being transmitted,

17 and every single operation must be inspected

18 every single year. Those boots on the ground,

19 the reality is the certifiers have the inspectors

20 on the ground to do things like mass balance and

21 traceback audits. What did you take in, and what

22 did you send out? If that is being done at every
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1 single operation across the supply chain, then I

2 think that can really help. The certifiers know

3 what to look at, at these certificates. We're

4 all learning.

5 We have very sophisticated actors that

6 are learning how to do -- they've learned how to

7 do this, and we need to learn what they are

8 doing. But we are learning what do you look at. 

9 When you have documentation that crosses borders,

10 not in the U.S., but between two other borders,

11 depending on what the countries are, what

12 documentation do you look at?

13 What do you look at on their

14 certificate and all their supporting documents? 

15 How do you weave that thread? I think we have

16 certainly learned a tremendous amount about how

17 the paperwork works -- on the ground audits and

18 inspections and did you really -- can we actually

19 trace what happened at this operation, so every

20 certifier can say yes, I believe this operation

21 is in full compliance, and I have all of these

22 inspection records and traceback mass balance
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1 audits to prove it. I think that's something we

2 can all do now, today.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

4 MS. BEHAR: The Organic Trade

5 Association recommended that port of entries

6 become a certified entity. Is that even possible

7 -- certified organic -- in their comments to the

8 Board. Having never been to a port of entry, I

9 don't know how that might be accomplished.

10 DR. TUCKER: That's a great question. 

11 I think as we're looking at these concepts of

12 operation, I understand your ports have multiple

13 entities operating at the port. They're all

14 distinct entities operating there. Whether the

15 entire port or subsets of the port could be

16 certified, I think, is a great question. It

17 would be part of the concept of operations. 

18 Daniel, anything that you can say on that? I

19 don't want to put you on the spot too much.

20 MR. COLLIER: That's actually the

21 first I've heard of that concept. Was there

22 anything in the details of that recommendation
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1 about how that would work, or was it just a

2 general recommendation?

3 MS. BEHAR: I suppose when they give

4 public comment, we can ask. It was a comment

5 that -- because the port of entry is part of that

6 physical transfer area, and that's the way our

7 certification system works is everyone who's

8 physically handling a product through the chain

9 is inspected to make sure that they are not

10 providing prohibited materials, they're not

11 comingling. They have personnel that understand

12 the organic certification system.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Scott, do you have any

14 thoughts, as a certifier?

15 MS. BEHAR: I have no idea, maybe

16 Scott? I've never been to a port of entry.

17 MR. RICE: We have a couple of ports

18 in Washington State that are certified. Our

19 agency does not certify them, but another

20 certifier does. I think you kind of described it

21 as it happens. As much as you have a split

22 operation or a split handler that may be handling
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1 both organic and non-organic product, you have

2 measures in place for cleanout and handling, as

3 you would see in other lines.

4 DR. TUCKER: That's really helpful. 

5 Eventually, perhaps in the Organic Integrity

6 Database, we could have port as a business type. 

7 There's a lot happening. Again, all of this --

8 we're still learning, too, so all of this is

9 really helpful in bringing your experience and

10 knowledge out there of what's happening back to

11 this group, so thank you.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, I think

13 people are getting antsy for their lunch. I'm

14 going to wrap it up with two quick questions, and

15 then thank you guys for your time. One question,

16 and this is probably directed best at APHIS -- I

17 guess probably any of you.

18 We have this organic certification

19 scheme in place, where we require practiced

20 standards of operation. There's going to be

21 certified handling operations within the U.S.

22 that then receive these products, at some point,
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1 that are imported.

2 Are there best practices or documents

3 that they could use or they should be looking at

4 to determine if a product was treated, at some

5 point in the import process, phytosanitary

6 certificates or others? Are there documents that

7 they should be requesting to ensure the integrity

8 in the supply chain?

9 MR. FARMER: Yes, and no. When we

10 take a phytosanitary action on a shipment with a

11 treatment, there's going to be an emergency

12 action notification, which is the -- it'll either

13 be a CBP Form 523 or a USDA Form 523. Those

14 would be attached -- usually, the importer is

15 unaware of what's going on with their shipment

16 while it's at the port of entry.

17 It's their broker that has the

18 awareness or is given the request if they want to

19 re-export or treat the shipment. The broker

20 would determine yes, I'll go ahead and treat the

21 shipment. That could be an issue. Then there's

22 the other one, which is a condition of entry
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1 treatment.

2 That would not have a form, other than

3 a certification of treatment, which there's no

4 certificate provided. It's just done. You

5 really have to be aware of what country commodity

6 combination you're importing from and whether or

7 not there's a standing treatment that's required

8 for entry.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: That would be in those

10 databases you mentioned earlier?

11 MR. FARMER: Correct.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Then my last question is

13 I noticed, Michael, under your presentation,

14 there was a discussion around programs being

15 focused around marketing orders and other

16 commodity programs. I know there's an organic

17 checkoff program proposal status working its way

18 through whatever that regulatory system is. If

19 that were to pass and become an official organic

20 checkoff program, would that at all change the

21 way you guys interface with organic imports?

22 MR. FARMER: It would not, my
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1 understanding. That's a research and promotion

2 program. I'll stand corrected. If anything, it

3 may assess imported product to help fund those

4 generic programs, but it would not change

5 anything that we do.

6 Any of those 14 commodities that we

7 regulate, to the extent that any of those are

8 imported as a certified organic product, to us,

9 that's interesting, in my division, but again, we

10 wouldn't be looking at that as a criteria for

11 entry and for any compliance enforcement.

12 If there were a research and promotion

13 program up and running for certified organic

14 product, and it did require that assessments be

15 levied against the imported product, it would be

16 logical, and it would flow from current practice

17 that those overseeing that R&P program would be

18 pulling data from the ACE portal and somehow

19 using that to identify all imports of certified

20 organic agricultural products. Then they would

21 be using that to match that against assessments

22 made by importers, but it wouldn't change
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1 anything that we do.

2 Typically, our research and promotion

3 programs do not have hold authority. They do not

4 hold intact authority. All of the enforcement is

5 really after the fact because the entity is still

6 there. You can always go after them.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you. We're

8 out of time. I want to thank our panelists for

9 their time and input and dialogue. I think it's

10 important and vital to our community. Thank you

11 for taking the time to travel out here with us

12 today. Paul, do you want to say anything?

13 DR. LEWIS: I have nothing else to

14 add, thank you, Tom, just to echo the support

15 that my federal colleagues have -- again, this is

16 part of an ongoing dialogue. I know we spoke

17 about having another panel discussion looking at

18 possibly a panel of certifiers. We'll be talking

19 about that in due time. Again, part of an

20 educational experience, so that we're looking

21 forward, in terms of recommendations that Tom and

22 the Board can provide, dealing with this
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1 important issue. Thank you.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you everyone. We

3 will now recess for lunch and start back up

4 promptly at, I think it's 1:30, 2:00? We'll

5 start right back up promptly at 2:00. We are now

6 in recess.

7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

8 went off the record at 12:50 p.m. and resumed at

9 2:10 p.m.)

10 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, we'll come

11 back into order and proceed with our agenda. Up

12 first is the National Organic Program with the

13 materials update and the summary of new and

14 outstanding petitions from Dr. Lisa Brines.

15 DR. BRINES: All right, good

16 afternoon, everybody. So the purpose of the

17 presentation today is just to give you an

18 overview of materials that are of interest on the

19 agenda today, but also what's in progress and

20 might be on the agenda for future NOSB meetings.

21 So for this meeting, we have four

22 petitioned materials that are on the agenda that
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1 have proposals that came out of subcommittee that

2 will be considered by the full board at this

3 meeting. There are also 35 listings of materials

4 on the National List which will complete the

5 sunset process at the conclusion of this meeting.

6 In terms of the criteria that the

7 board will use to evaluate materials, whether

8 those are petitioned materials or materials being

9 reviewed under sunset, those criteria are under

10 statute in the Organic Foods Production Act, and

11 they include a number of different criteria

12 related to toxicity, human health, alternatives 

13 --- both alternative materials, and alternative

14 practices that could be used in lieu of the

15 petitioned substance. So those are the criteria

16 for basing your decisions.

17 The petition guidelines that we have

18 published in the program handbook, the template

19 that we use for technical evaluation reports, and

20 the NOSB review documents are all designed to

21 align with those OFPA criteria to guide through

22 the full petition process from the submissions,
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1 through the technical report, to the NOSB

2 documents that they are all aligned with those

3 criteria that are under statute.

4 There are some additional criteria for

5 handling substances, so the criteria are

6 different depending on the use of that substance,

7 whether it's for crop production, livestock

8 production, or for processing or handling

9 applications, and there is some additional

10 criteria for synthetic processing aids as well

11 that are in the regulations and not in the

12 statute.

13 So for this meeting, the crops

14 subcommittee is bringing forth a number of

15 proposals for consideration by the full board. 

16 For petitioned materials, that includes a

17 petition for fatty alcohols, which is a mix of

18 octanol and decanol. 

19 There is a petition for anaerobic

20 digestate. It is not actually petitioning for

21 addition to the National List, but does have some

22 other issues that are of interest to the board in
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1 terms of material usage in organic crop

2 production. 

3 In addition, there is an update,

4 verbal update, that the board will not be voting

5 on from newspaper and recycled paper. So that

6 was not a result of a petition, but as a follow

7 up from a previous sunset review.

8 In addition, since our last public

9 meeting, the board did receive a petition also

10 for ammonium nonanoate, and that petition is

11 available to the public on the NOP website. 

12 However, during the course of its

13 initial review of the petition, the subcommittee

14 determined that the petition did not meet the

15 criteria for review because as a re-petition, it

16 didn't provide sufficient new information to

17 warrant review by the full board. 

18 So those criteria for re-petitions, it

19 is in the national petition guidelines. It's

20 posted in the NOP handbook which is available on

21 the website, and again, that petition is

22 available to the public on our website as well.
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1 Okay, so what's coming up for the

2 crops subcommittee at future meetings? You have

3 a number of petitions that have been submitted,

4 many of which are undergoing technical review and

5 might come up at the next spring meeting. Those

6 include allyl isothiocyanate, natamycin, polyoxin

7 D zinc salt, sodium citrate, sulfur as a

8 molluscicide, ammonium citrate, and ammonium

9 glycinate. 

10 And some of you that have been around

11 for a few years might notice that there's some

12 familiarity with some of these substances

13 including allyl isothiocyanate, polyoxin D, and

14 the two ammonium salts. These are all coming

15 forward as re-petitions. 

16 So under our petition process,

17 petitioners don't have a process for appealing

18 decisions of the board, but again, according to

19 the national petition guidelines, they can submit

20 a new petition for consideration by the board if

21 that new petition provides new information that

22 wasn't considered during the initial review. 
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1 So all of these materials with the

2 exception of natamycin are petitioned to add to

3 205601 of the National List. The petitioner for

4 natamycin is requesting a classification decision

5 from the board.

6 Okay, moving onto the livestock

7 subcommittee, they brought forth two different

8 petition material proposals for consideration by

9 the full board. Those include hypochlorous acid

10 and sulfur. Those petitions both included a

11 technical review prior to the proposal

12 development by the subcommittee, and both the

13 petitions and technical reviews are available on

14 the NOP website.

15 Okay, so coming up from the livestock

16 subcommittee at future meetings, currently under

17 review is a petition for a glycolic acid. That's

18 petitioned as a teat dip for dairy animals. 

19 Recently received a petition for oxalic acid. 

20 That's for control for varroa mites for honey

21 bees, and there's also a pending petition for

22 thymol which is used in foot baths for livestock. 
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1 So all of the petitions are currently available

2 on the NOP website, and the technical reports,

3 once they're completed, will be posted there as

4 well.

5 Moving onto the handling subcommittee,

6 we don't have any current petitions on the

7 handling subcommittee part of the agenda for this

8 meeting, but currently under subcommittee review,

9 we do have a trio of these antimicrobial

10 sanitizer type products that are currently under

11 review and have technical reviews either complete

12 or in development. 

13 So that includes the silver dihydrogen

14 citrate, sodium chlorite for the generation of

15 chlorine dioxide gas, and sodium dodecyl benzene

16 sulfonate or SDBS. So I believe all these three

17 of those petitions, again, are available on our

18 website and the technical reports have been

19 completed or are close to being finished.

20 Also under review by the handling

21 subcommittee we have three different agricultural

22 substances that have been petitioned for use to
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1 Section 205.606, so that's a section of the list

2 that applies to agricultural substances that can

3 be used in non-organic form if they are included

4 on 205.606. 

5 So we have two -- a petitioner that

6 submitted this Ethiopian and Japones pepper

7 petitions, and then we have a more recent

8 petition for tamarind seed gum which is under

9 review, and a technical report is in development.

10 Okay, also of interest from the

11 handling subcommittee at this meeting, there is a

12 consideration of a reclassification of potassium

13 acid tartrate. I think that came out of the last

14 sunset review of this substance. So the decision

15 would be whether to reclassify that substance

16 from a synthetic substance to an agricultural

17 substance. 

18 There's also a discussion document on

19 marine algae. That will not be voted on at this

20 meeting. It's simply a discussion document, and

21 the two verbal updates following from previous

22 meetings included tocopherols and ancillary
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1 substances in cellulose. And again, for the

2 verbal updates, we won't have a vote at this

3 meeting either.

4 Also of interest, we do have a new

5 report available for bisphenol A (BPA), as a

6 packaging substance, and again, that's posted on

7 our website now. It was developed at the request

8 of the handling subcommittee in response to a

9 memo that NOP issued to the full board in 2014

10 regarding packaging substances used in organic

11 food handling. So it's not on the agenda for

12 this meeting, but we do have the technical report

13 available, which was a follow up to that memo.

14 Okay, so in terms of things that will

15 be voted on at this meeting, for petitioned

16 substances, there are generally two votes that

17 will occur for each material. 

18 That first motion is a classification

19 motion for things that have not been previously

20 classified by the board, and that typically is a

21 motion to classify a material as either synthetic

22 or nonsynthetic or agricultural or
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1 nonagricultural. 

2 Once a material has been classified,

3 the board will take a second vote whether to

4 list, remove, or amend the substance as

5 applicable, and both of those motions do take a

6 two-thirds majority in order to pass the full

7 board, and that threshold of two-thirds is

8 established under the statute in the Organic Food

9 Production Act. 

10 So with a board of 15 members here,

11 that's 10 votes in order to pass either of those

12 motions. If someone is late back from a break

13 and there are only 14 members in the room, it's

14 still 10 votes, so 10 for membership here.

15 We will have 35 substances up for

16 sunset review to complete the sunset review at

17 this meeting. Those materials are part of the

18 sunset 2019 review, and it's 2019 because for

19 materials that are recommended for removal, the

20 program does need that time to complete any

21 necessary rulemaking by the sunset deadline. So

22 I won't go through the materials individually
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1 right now, but you'll hear from me later tomorrow

2 and the following day with the introductions for

3 those materials.

4 So in terms of the sunset 2019, one

5 caveat I did want to point out is that only one

6 of those materials that are being reviewed is

7 actually scheduled under the regulations to

8 sunset in 2019, which is the biodegradable

9 biobased mulch film. 

10 The rest of those materials are being

11 reviewed early as part of the board's

12 recommendation from 2016 to reorganize the sunset

13 review process, so in effect we're moving up the

14 review of 34 of the materials in order to better

15 balance the work load of the board under sunset.

16 Okay, so these sunset materials, they

17 were all on the agenda for the spring 2017

18 meeting, and again, this is the second meeting

19 where the board will complete its review. For

20 each of those materials, the board will take a

21 motion to remove the substance, and again, that

22 motion will take a two-thirds majority in order
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1 to pass. 

2 If you are interested in either these

3 materials or future sunset materials, we did

4 recently update the National List sunset date

5 document which is available in the program

6 handbook. That's NOP 5611, and that reflects all

7 of the updates and changes that were made under

8 the sunset 2017 process and is the most current

9 resource for upcoming sunsets.

10 And just a quick preview on the sunset

11 2020, which will start at the spring 2018

12 meeting, there's a few more materials for next

13 year, 52 listings that will be reviewed over the

14 course of the following spring meetings next

15 year. Again, six of those are actually scheduled

16 to sunset in 2020. The remaining 46 are, again,

17 under an early review as part of that NOSB

18 recommendation to redistribute the workload for

19 sunset.

20 Even though we haven't completed the

21 sunset 2019 yet, we did ask the board over the

22 summer to think about what technical reports they
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1 might need in support of next year's sunset

2 process. That's to give us enough time to do the

3 contracting and technical report development to

4 be ready for the spring 2018 meeting. 

5 So as part of that review, we did ask

6 the subcommittees to prioritize their technical

7 reports. We were able to meet all of the, I

8 guess, top priority requests and a few additional

9 ones as well. This slide will be posted on our

10 website, but just to give you a preview, that

11 looks like seven, six reports that we'll be doing

12 under sunset 2020. 

13 I do want to point out just one in

14 particular which is the gums report, which was

15 requested for the handling subcommittee. So

16 there are a number of gums on the National List. 

17 Not all of them are going to be under sunset

18 review for 2020. 

19 In consideration of the fact that gums

20 are very often used for similar technical and

21 functional effects, we did expand the scope of

22 that report for gums so that it will cover all of
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1 the gums on the National List, so it will include

2 all of the water extracted gums that are on 606,

3 but in addition, the other gums, tragacanth,

4 xanthan, and gellan gum, I think, is the last

5 one. So those reports will be coming soon. Once

6 they're approved by the various subcommittees, we

7 will post them online for the public.

8 I think this is my last slide. One

9 update on the technical report contracts, as part

10 of our normal business, we do have to update our

11 technical report contract from time to time, so

12 we did just reissue a technical report contract

13 which will help with the support for the upcoming

14 sunset reviews and petitions. That award was

15 contract -- was awarded to two groups, the

16 Nexight Group and Savan Group. 

17 And I just want to point out one

18 change that we did make for this new technical

19 report contract in response to stakeholder

20 feedback. We heard from various stakeholders

21 about the disclosure of authors for the reports. 

22 Whereas in general, we have disclosed the
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1 organization completing the report consistently,

2 but not necessarily the individuals involved in

3 the authorship. Under the new contract, we do

4 have that mandatory requirement that the authors

5 will be disclosed in the report. 

6 So we're in a bit of a transition

7 period right now, so everything being posted may

8 not include that information if it wasn't done

9 under the previous contract, but going forward

10 under this new blanket purchase agreement, we

11 will include authors, and that includes

12 subcontractors as well.

13 And I think that is it, and if you

14 have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them

15 as well. Thanks.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: So quick question, you

17 do have current contractors under contract that

18 would be extending under the non-disclosure of

19 authors contract?

20 DR. BRINES: There are a couple of

21 reports that are wrapping up, nothing new that

22 has been assigned recently. I believe the sodium
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1 citrate report is under the old contract, and

2 glycolic acid is under the old contract.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: And then those two were

4 the totality of contracts, or those are just new

5 contractors in addition to contractors already

6 approved?

7 DR. BRINES: I see, yes, so this

8 replaces an expiring contract, so this will be

9 the two contractors going forward.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Excellent, thank you.

11 DR. LEWIS: I'd like to turn to my

12 colleague, Dr. Jenny Tucker, for some additional

13 remarks.

14 DR. TUCKER: Okay, I came up here so

15 we can acknowledge and recognize Lisa Brines for

16 having won a big award within the National

17 Organic Program, so this is a happy award moment. 

18 Lisa is the recipient of the NOP Employee of the

19 Quarter award this last quarter. 

20 Okay, so this is an award, again, it's

21 a quarterly award, so it's issued each quarter. 

22 It's within NOP, and it is peer nominated, and so
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1 a group of Lisa's peers nominated her for this

2 award, and so she gets some goodies for that. 

3 So first, there is a floating trophy

4 that says USDA Organic and has a seal on it,

5 "National Organic Program employee of the quarter

6 in honor of your outstanding service," so she

7 gets to keep this for the quarter, and then it

8 gets passed to the next recipient next quarter,

9 so there you go.

10 And then to keep, Lisa gets a -- it's

11 a clock and pen holder, and for some reason, the

12 pens weren't in the box, so I'll have to mail you

13 the pens. I don't know how that works. It says,

14 "National Organic Program Employee of the

15 Quarter." It also has the seal on it, so she

16 gets to keep this, so it's her keepsake for

17 employee of the quarter.

18 And then no award would be complete

19 without a plaque, of course, so here we go, and

20 so here is the plaque. It says, "Certificate of

21 Achievement. This certificate proudly recognizes

22 Lisa M. Brines as employee of the quarter during
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1 July, August, and September 2017 in honor of your

2 outstanding performance and commitment to the

3 Agricultural Marketing Service's National Organic

4 Program's success."

5 We'll take formal pictures a little

6 later. I do want to just say a couple of words. 

7 I think you all know how wonderful Lisa is, and

8 so she has done tremendous work to really

9 formalize and to explain, and to make more

10 efficient the petition process. 

11 She answers countless questions about

12 the National List for stakeholders across the

13 community, both long-term community members and

14 new ones who are coming in. This technical

15 report recompete that she just mentioned, that

16 was a huge project. 

17 Government contracting is hard, and

18 she really, really mastered that process and

19 really took over from beginning to end really how

20 to work that process and make it the success that

21 it was, so that was a huge project, and Lisa, so

22 grateful for everything, so thank you. 
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jenny. 

2 That's an award that's well deserved. We

3 couldn't do our work without Dr. Brines' support,

4 and I think everyone on the board agrees with me

5 on that. Thank you so much, Lisa, for all your

6 help.

7 All right, we will get onto public

8 comment now. To start public comment, I'm going

9 to go over a couple items from our policies and

10 procedures manual. Before I get into that, and

11 if we could pull up those slides, just a quick

12 reminder to silence your phones and computers. I

13 can hear someone getting a decent amount of email

14 out there, so please just remember to keep that

15 quiet so we can focus on the public comment and

16 questions from the board. 

17 All right, so public comment policy,

18 I'm not going to read this in detail. I'm just

19 going to go over some mechanics of it and some

20 important highlights, but first of all, the

21 public comment duration is three minutes. 

22 We have a handy colored timer and
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1 buzzer there. Michelle, do you want to start it

2 going? So it starts at green. It will go to

3 yellow and red, and we'll just see that happen as

4 I start talking, but the yellow light is a

5 warning, and then the red light is when the time

6 is up.

7 Once you see that red light, please

8 finish your sentence and your thought, and out of

9 respect for the board and other public

10 commenters, I ask that you respect the time limit

11 and try to wrap it up as quickly as possible. At

12 that time, I will ask the board members if they

13 have any questions for the presenter.

14 If you have a presentation to go along

15 with it and have provided that Michelle, she will

16 have it loaded up, and there is a remote that you

17 can use to move the slides forward. Michelle is

18 modeling it at this time.

19 I will be asking everyone to start

20 their comments by stating their name and

21 affiliation for the record. We ask that you

22 disclose all relevant affiliations pertaining to
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1 matters of business before the board. If members

2 of the board want further clarification, I

3 encourage you to ask questions after the comment

4 has been given. 

5 I will be asking for commenters' name

6 and affiliation before each commenter to remind

7 folks to start with that, and also to give you an

8 opportunity to set the record straight if I've

9 butchered your name, and I apologize for that in

10 advance because I will most likely do that to

11 some names.

12 A reminder that -- can we go to the

13 second slide, Michelle? No proxies are allowed. 

14 Commenters should refrain from making personal

15 attacks or remarks that might impugn the

16 character of an individual. If I hear something

17 of this nature, I will interrupt the commenter

18 and ask them to refrain.

19 Please be clear and succinct. It is

20 your three minutes to talk about whatever you

21 wish, previous point notwithstanding, but just

22 because you're able to speed read doesn't mean
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1 we're able to speed listen, and that's the end of

2 my advice and what's in our manual.

3 So with that, we'll get started with

4 public comments. First up, I'll be reading the

5 names and then the names of people on deck. If

6 you're on deck, we have a chair over here for you

7 to sit on so we can rapidly move through the

8 public comment process given we're already about

9 15 minutes behind.

10 So first up is Russell Taylor,

11 followed by Jesse Maranville. Russell, are you

12 here, and if you could start with your name and

13 relevant affiliation?

14 MR. TAYLOR: Thank you. My name is

15 Russell Taylor. I'm here today representing the

16 Humic Products Trade Association as president. 

17 HPTA consists of 35 of the leading manufacturers

18 in the humic product industry. I am also a

19 committee member of the International Humic

20 Substances Society, a committee of commercial and

21 industrial applications on humic substances.

22 I have been in the humic acid
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1 manufacturing business professionally for 20

2 years, and more importantly, I'm a certified

3 organic farmer who uses humic acids on my farm. 

4 My comments today represent those of many humic

5 acid both -- in the industry, both domestically

6 and internationally.

7 Because humic acids is functionally

8 defined as being only soluble in an alkaline

9 solution, a small amount of synthetic hydroxide

10 is needed to refine these products. In past

11 years, concerns with humic acid at the NOSB has

12 always been around the nutrient fortification

13 with a synthetic substance added to refine these

14 products.

15 After reviewing the minutes of the

16 NOSB meeting in Denver, several misconceptions

17 regarding the manufacture of humic acids caught

18 our attention. Typically, humic acids are used

19 in small amounts as part of compost heaps, drip

20 irrigation, and blended with other fertilizers. 

21 Humic acid needs to be soluble to be used in

22 these applications. 
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1 Humic acids can increase the

2 availability of micronutrients and facilitate

3 microbe activity. To assert these products as

4 being used a crutch by farmers illustrates a lack

5 of knowledge of how and why humic acids are used

6 by these producers. Just like kelp extracts,

7 humic acids are a tool that can help facilitate

8 crop growth. 

9 Also at the Denver meeting, comments

10 were made in the subcommittee using confusing

11 terms like "coal" and "naturally derived humic

12 acids." Additionally, the assertion was made

13 that coal for humic extraction diminishes the

14 amount of fossil fuels available for energy.

15 Presently, humic acids are extracted

16 from terrestrial deposits such as leonardite,

17 oxidized lignite, bituminous coals, humalite,

18 carbonaceous shales, peat, and sapropel. All of

19 these naturally occurring deposits are ancient

20 plant deposits that have no commercial fuel

21 value.

22 Conversely, humic acids are not
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1 present in fuel type coals and cannot be

2 extracted from fuel type coals unless coal is

3 subjected to a chemical oxidative process which

4 are not allowed by NOP. This fact was confirmed

5 by a rigorous lab testing method done by AAPFCO

6 which is the American Association of Plant Food

7 Control Officials.

8 Because oxidative processes for humic

9 acid are not allowed by NOP rule, making

10 additional annotation or guidance for coal11 derived humic acids is redundant. The suggestion

12 that more natural-based materials should be used

13 overlooks the fact that humic acid needs to be

14 synthetically extracted regardless of the source. 

15 The bulk of the liquefied humic acid

16 soluble available to growers is made from

17 immature and brown weathered coals as indicated

18 previously. Removing them from the allowed

19 sources in the humic substance extraction process

20 would virtually eliminate all liquefied humic

21 acid as an available ingredient to organic farms.

22 The current rule describing alkaline
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1 extracted humic acid derived from naturally

2 occurring deposits is correct and requires no

3 revision or annotation.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

5 questions? Thank you for your comments. Up next

6 is Jesse Maranville followed by Theojary

7 Crisantes. Sorry, Theo.

8 MR. MARANVILLE: Hello, I'm Jesse

9 Maranville.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Sorry, if you could

11 start with your name and affiliation?

12 MR. MARANVILLE: I'm president of

13 Georgia Gulf Sulfur Corporation. Sulfur today as

14 we know it is all produced by the Claus process

15 as opposed to the Frasch process, which was the

16 mine material that happened in the 1900s. 

17 Frasch processed sulfur typically was

18 99 plus, however it had impurities including

19 lead, selenium, tellurium. The processed sulfur

20 we use today is 99.9 typical, has no impurities

21 to speak of, 0.1 percent max. 

22 It's also moved in molten tank cars
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1 and trucks today as opposed to solid in the old

2 days. We run our own tank trucks and bring it in

3 that way. 

4 We solidify it on a stainless steel

5 drum. We store it in enclosed silos and bins,

6 and then we take it to further processing. 

7 Further processing for us consists of milling it

8 to a particle size, in the ag sulfur division

9 about 35 microns. 

10 We also add kaolin clay to it at this

11 point to improve the flowability. The product is

12 then packaged to a personal requirement of the

13 customer, 50 pound bags, 30 pound bags, ton bags,

14 whatever. It's never stored in bulk. 

15 Elemental sulfur is environmentally

16 safe. It's a very safe material, both as a raw

17 material for handling, and as a finished product

18 for the producer, I mean for the consumer, excuse

19 me. Our ag products are both approved through

20 NOP as well as OMRI for, again, production in

21 crops. 

22 It should be noted that target tests
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1 for livestock are not really killed by the

2 product, but actually repel for the most part. 

3 The exception to this is when it's in contact

4 with pests that have exoskeletons that acts as

5 diatomaceous earth in that respect. 

6 At present, there are no known

7 alternatives on the National List for livestock. 

8 A good use for this product is in poultry houses

9 where it actually minimizes mites. If you

10 minimize mites, you increase egg production,

11 therefore it's just an economic benefit for the

12 grower at a very minimal cost.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

14 MR. MARANVILLE: Questions?

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Any questions for Jesse? 

16 Asa first and then Harriet.

17 MR. MARANVILLE: Harriet?

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa first.

19 MR. BRADMAN: Just a quick question. 

20 When you package the material for applications to

21 fields and poultry, is it in a dust form and is

22 the application method by dust, or do you ever -
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1 do you manufacture any wettable powders?

2 MR. MARANVILLE: It's actually - it's

3 a duo label. You can apply it as a wettable or

4 as a dust. You can dust it or spray it.

5 MS. BEHAR: Are there any respiratory

6 issues when it's being used around livestock,

7 poultry, or bovines, or anything?

8 MR. MARANVILLE: Not that we're aware

9 of, no.

10 MS. OAKLEY: Sulfur is a known skin

11 and eye irritant. Are there any concerns with

12 applying it directly to animals with regards to

13 their skin and eyes?

14 MR. MARANVILLE: I'm sorry, I didn't

15 understand.

16 MS. OAKLEY: It's a skin and eye

17 irritant. Are there any concerns applying it

18 directly to livestock?

19 MR. MARANVILLE: No, actually we make

20 another product that's a petroleum jelly-based

21 product for skin problems for livestock. Most

22 people won't dust livestock. They dust the
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1 quarters just because it's easier and it's

2 basically just as efficient, but there's no skin

3 irritations that we know of.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much.

5 MR. MARANVILLE: Thank you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Theojary

7 Crisantes followed by Peter Johnson. If you

8 could start with your name and relevant

9 affiliations for the record?

10 MR. CRISANTES: Hi, good afternoon,

11 ladies and gentlemen. My name is Theojary

12 Crisantes. I'm a grower at Wholesum Harvest. We

13 grow organic vegetables in open fields, shade

14 houses, greenhouses, both in the ground and in

15 containers. 

16 I would like to take this opportunity

17 to comment on the crops committee proposal on

18 hydroponics and container grown recommendations

19 from August 29 of 2017, specifically the motion

20 put forward that for container production to be

21 certified organic, in which a limit of 20 percent

22 of the plant nitrogen requirement can be supplied
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1 by liquid feeding and a limit of 50 percent of

2 the plant nitrogen requirement can be added to

3 the container after the crop has been planted.

4 For perennials, the nitrogen feeding

5 limit is calculated on an annual basis. 

6 Transplants, ornamentals, herbs, sprouts, potter,

7 and aquatic plants are exempted from these

8 requirements.

9 It is my view that regardless of the

10 production method used, fertility needs should be

11 addressed by site-specific conditions determined

12 by the grower in accordance with his or her

13 organic system plan and to promote biodiversity.

14 I strongly disagree to use a formula

15 of 20 percent of the plant's nitrogen

16 requirements determined for sodium nitrate, a

17 highly soluble input which is immediately

18 available to the plant as a nutrient, and compare

19 it to hydrolyzed soybean meal, which is neither

20 highly soluble nor immediately available to the

21 plant as a nutrient, and then create a rule for

22 the fertility need of a plant that is
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1 inconsistent.

2 This statement demonstrates the lack

3 of understanding of the crops committee about the

4 process necessary for organic container

5 production which they are pretending to regulate

6 which requires presence in the root zone of

7 natural and diverse soil ecology which is

8 essential for organic inputs to be available to

9 the plant as nutrients. 

10 Their correct focus in container plant

11 nutrition should be on the natural and diverse

12 soil ecology found in the container and not in

13 the amount of one single element and how the

14 element is delivered to the plant.

15 I would like to encourage the board to

16 continue to work on the minority view which is

17 based on the 2010 recommendation, specifically

18 the 50 percent carbon-based media requirement

19 which to me seems arbitrary and redundant if the

20 requirement for a media is already defined as a

21 growing media shall contain sufficient organic

22 matter. Thank you. Any questions?
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Questions? 

2 Joelle?

3 MS. MOSSO: Hi, and thank you for your

4 comments. I just had a question. I understand

5 that you don't agree with what's in the majority

6 proposal, but my question is could you comply

7 with it?

8 MR. CRISANTES: Yeah, I could comply,

9 yes, yeah.

10 MS. MOSSO: What would be the limiting

11 factors being most problematic within it?

12 MR. CRISANTES: Well, there would be,

13 you know, quite a few limiting factors, one being

14 for sure we would have a lot of runoff of that 50

15 percent of that nutrient being already in the

16 container. That would be, you know, the first

17 one. 

18 You feed the plant as they need to be

19 fed, not, you know -- you don't feed your kids 50

20 percent of what they need at once, correct? So

21 it's the same thing with plants. So imagine that

22 you're throwing away that, and so that would be
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1 one of the things that would come into mind right

2 away.

3 MS. MOSSO: Thank you.

4 DR. THICKE: Mr. Crisantes, in July

5 you testified before the U.S. Senate Ag Committee

6 on behalf of the Coalition for Sustainable

7 Organics and said quote, "The Coalition would

8 support efforts to empower USDA and NOP staff to

9 actively participate in the researching,

10 drafting, and analysis of formal recommendations,

11 and prioritize NOP's agenda. Further, we

12 strongly support an active role for industry

13 involvement."

14 So what is the active role you are

15 looking for from the industry, and why is it that

16 you want to see more of the authority of the NOSB

17 turned over to the USDA?

18 MR. CRISANTES: I would like for the

19 USDA to have a more active role on what the board

20 needs to -- on the agenda of the board, on what

21 the board needs to really be looking at. 

22 For example, we had a great example of
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1 it today. We have, you know, something that's

2 really hurting our industry, which is the

3 fraudulent imports, and I think that's something

4 that needs to be addressed really quick. 

5 And I think that's something that we

6 should be working at, and I think that's

7 something that's coming from them and it's not

8 something that we're talking among us here, so

9 those are the things that I'm talking about. 

10 Definitely the conversation needs to be including

11 the industry, but it cannot be just industry

12 driven. It needs to be a cooperation among

13 everybody that's involved. Was that not

14 satisfactory, sir?

15 DR. THICKE: I'm sorry?

16 MR. CRISANTES: Was that not

17 satisfactory?

18 DR. THICKE: Probably not for me, but,

19 you know.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Ashley?

21 MS. SWAFFAR: Theo, I'd just like to

22 let you know that the NOP does approve our work
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1 agenda items, so we as the board do not just come

2 up with something to work on. We have to have it

3 approved by the NOP. 

4 We do submit suggestions of what we

5 would like to work on, and then the program

6 approves or doesn't approve it, and then in the

7 case of hydroponics and container growing, the

8 program actually asked us to further clarify

9 this.

10 MR. CRISANTES: Correct.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much. Up

12 next, we have Peter Johnson, followed by Melody

13 Meyer. Peter, if you could start with your name

14 and affiliation for the record?

15 MR. JOHNSON: Hi, my name is Pete

16 Johnson. I have a farm called Pete's Greens in

17 northern Vermont, 100 acres of organic produce,

18 three acres of greenhouse production, and 200

19 acres of cover crops for a big crop rotation that

20 we run. 

21 I started as a farmer as an eight22 year-old. My mom encouraged me to grow some
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1 pumpkins and sell them, and immediately, even as

2 a kid, it was obvious that focusing on soil

3 fertility and quality was an important part of

4 success. I'm here to speak in favor of

5 eliminated hydroponic organics. 

6 I'm from Vermont. We have an educated

7 and interested consumer base there, and we

8 regularly hear from consumers who are very

9 concerned about watering down organic standards,

10 and the top of the list that we hear about is

11 hydroponics.

12 I'm not personally at all opposed to

13 hydroponic production. I think it's an

14 interesting way to grow food, and in the scheme

15 of how we produce food in this country and feed

16 people, there's a whole, you know, wide range of

17 quality and all those things, and I think quality

18 hydroponic production is a good way to feed

19 people.

20 I think that the difference between a

21 properly run organic soil fertility farm and

22 hydroponic production is really vast, and there
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1 are two completely different production systems

2 and they should be called different names.

3 There's lots of good things we could

4 call organic, you know, hydroponic production,

5 but certified organic is the gold standard. 

6 We're trying to keep it that way, and it means a

7 lot to a lot of people. 

8 We have been, you know, humans have

9 been farming now for 10,000 years, and that has

10 been soil based. That's what people expect. 

11 That's what people think they're dealing with

12 when they buy certified organic. They expect a

13 natural system using natural biological factors,

14 and, you know, I don't farm --

15 You know, I don't use soil biology to

16 help fertilize my crops just because I believe in

17 that. The standards require that. I can only

18 use certain fertility products, most of which

19 require some biological activity in order to be

20 accessible to my crops. 

21 So it's in the heart of the program

22 and has been from the start, and it's really
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1 important that we keep these standards and

2 continue to have the integrity of USDA organic as

3 we move forward because people care. People are

4 interested. 

5 It matters, and it's really going to

6 matter in the coming years. And we appreciate

7 your work, and I hope that you look at this very

8 seriously. Thank you.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley, then Steve.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: So you talked a little

11 bit about labeling. Would you be opposed if

12 hydroponic folks used the USDA still, but just

13 underneath it said, "hydroponically grown?"

14 MR. JOHNSON: I think that's a

15 slippery slope. There's a lot of information out

16 there in the world, and people don't -- you know,

17 consumers don't see everything and it's hard to 

18 -- I would be opposed to that, yeah. 

19 I think that we have a label for

20 organic that does still really mean something,

21 and it's really hard to educate people about all

22 of the different parameters, the different kinds
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1 of production, and I'd prefer a different label

2 for hydroponic.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Steve?

4 MR. ELA: You mentioned you had

5 several acres of greenhouse production. Is that

6 for more than just transplants?

7 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, it's mostly soil

8 grown vegetables.

9 MR. ELA: And how do you fertilize

10 that?

11 MR. JOHNSON: Mostly compost, lots of

12 different rock minerals and things, but it's the

13 same story there that I need the soil biology to

14 produce the nutrients from the crops, and it's

15 not easy. 

16 It's a complicated system, and

17 sometimes you can't respond as quickly as you'd

18 like to to a crop nutrient need, but that's part

19 of being an organic farmer and going down that

20 path, and learning those processes and working

21 with the biology.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet, then Emily.
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1 MS. BEHAR: What percentage of your

2 fertility costs do you think you have -- you

3 know, in your overall costs -- what percentage is

4 the fertility inputs?

5 MR. JOHNSON: On my farm, it's about

6 two and a half to three percent. We use a lot of

7 organic chicken manure that we apply during the

8 cover cropping period. I have three times as

9 much land as I grow vegetables on, and cover

10 cropping and bulk manure fertility is a huge part

11 of our program. 

12 And basically when I get around to

13 growing vegetables in a piece of ground, that's

14 sort of the test of the previous two years of

15 preparation, and it's highly successful. It

16 takes a lot of forethought, but my input prices

17 are quite low, so it does work out financially.

18 MS. OAKLEY: At previous meetings, we

19 have heard from public commenters that consumers

20 just consider organic to be about no synthetic

21 fertilizers or pesticides and no GMOs, but you

22 said you have an educated consumer base. I was
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1 wondering if you feel your consumers share those

2 views, or if you see that they care about a

3 broader host of issues behind the organic label

4 like biodiversity, etcetera?

5 MR. JOHNSON: Well, it's some of both. 

6 Of course it's a huge, broad spectrum, but in

7 Vermont, we do have a very educated consumer

8 base, and there is a large component of our

9 customer base that understands this issue and

10 cares about soil in soil production. I don't

11 know that that's the case everywhere. 

12 I suspect that in a lot of places, not

13 having chemicals on the food is probably the

14 number one priority, as it probably is for me as

15 well, but as you know, this issue has gotten a

16 lot of attention in the past two or three years

17 and it's not going to go away, and I think that

18 this is going to be a better and better known

19 issue, and as it is, it becomes sort of more and

20 more controversial in ways that are not good for

21 the organic label.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Sue?
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1 MS. BAIRD: In your fields, I'm

2 assuming that you would use soil tests to

3 determine the micronutrients that you would need,

4 and you said you use composted chicken litter, is

5 that correct?

6 MR. JOHNSON: Mm-hmm.

7 MS. BAIRD: And then in your

8 greenhouses, I'm assuming you use the same type

9 of inputs, correct?

10 MR. JOHNSON: Similar, you know,

11 different levels of course, but, yeah.

12 MS. BAIRD: Well, sure, depending on

13 what it needs.

14 MR. JOHNSON: Sure.

15 MS. BAIRD: Are all of those inputs

16 dry or are some of them liquefied?

17 MR. JOHNSON: We have used fish

18 emulsion, for example, in our drip irrigation,

19 but we -- actually, we find that the inputs that

20 we use dry are less expensive typically per

21 nutrient value, and we've gotten pretty good at

22 predicting the needs of the crop through the
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1 season. 

2 Like I say, it's not perfect. It's an

3 art. It's partly science, but it's also an art. 

4 Weather extremes can adjust those things. And I

5 think that's another part of this issue too is

6 that, you know, soil grown organic production is

7 difficult, and it may be more difficult in some

8 ways to create yields that could be created

9 hydroponically, and so there could be a bit of an

10 unfair playing field here and that matters as

11 well, especially if we have a consumer base that

12 actually wants what we're producing, but not

13 everybody understands the situation.

14 MS. BAIRD: And I totally agree with

15 you, very difficult. Do you have drip lines?

16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

17 MS. BAIRD: And do you run any kind of

18 inputs through those drip lines?

19 MR. JOHNSON: Occasionally fish

20 emulsion, seaweed, that sort of thing, but not at

21 all the bulk nutrient needs of the crop. 

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, I'm going to do
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1 one more, and then I'll stop it there because we

2 need to move on. Joelle?

3 MS. MOSSO: It's a quick one. In your

4 greenhouse soil-grown operation, do you do crop

5 rotation or how do you address crop rotation or

6 cover crop?

7 MR. JOHNSON: We don't cover crop much

8 in the greenhouses, a little bit here and there,

9 but the space is too valuable, so big rotation

10 and heavy doses of compost seem to really help

11 with the sort of issues that you might, you know,

12 encounter in outdoor production if you didn't

13 crop rotate, a lot of biological pest control,

14 beneficials, a lot of attention paid to all of

15 that because it's a highly diversified

16 environment. 

17 In some ways, I think it's easier to

18 grow one crop in a greenhouse and keep it all

19 closed up, but we're growing 50 crops in three

20 acres of greenhouses, so we've learned a lot

21 about how to use beneficials and things like

22 that, and that too, imperfect, but a constant
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1 learning challenge.

2 MS. MOSSO: Thank you.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Peter.

4 MR. JOHNSON: Thanks.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next, we have Melody

6 Meyer, followed by Justin Rich. We're about 25

7 minutes behind schedule now. Melody, if you

8 could start with your name and affiliation?

9 MS. MEYER: Hi, I'm Melody Meyer. I'm

10 with UNFI policy and industry relations. I'm

11 also the executive director of the UNFI

12 Foundation. I sit on the California Organic

13 Products Advisory Committee, and I'm a trustee at

14 The Organic Center. I'm no longer on the board

15 of the OTA.

16 I want to thank you all for your

17 tireless work, all the hours that you've put in,

18 and your commitment to the organic process. I

19 know it's a lot of work and I appreciate it.

20 I'm going to comment on a few things. 

21 Regarding the proposal to strengthen and clarify

22 organic seed use requirements, I agree with OTA's
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1 position that some changes need to be made before

2 the proposal is passed. 

3 Until a seed purity standard is

4 developed, I urge you to simply clarify that non5 organic seed must be commercially available in

6 organic form and produced without excluded

7 methods.

8 Regarding the proposal for hydroponic

9 and container growing, I'm in support of the

10 proposed standards that CCOF has developed for

11 all types of soilless growing conditions or

12 systems. Instead of focusing on inputs as the

13 defining characteristics of various production

14 system, the NOSB should focus more on the

15 outcomes. 

16 Minimum soil biology diversity should

17 be applied to all container and hydroponic

18 systems and all systems to ensure that soil

19 biology remains an essential element of all

20 organic systems. Selecting a one-size-fits-all

21 strategy will not work for all crops and

22 commodities. 
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1 UNFI supports separate labeling if

2 done in such a way that simply adds a line

3 beneath the name of the certification company and

4 does not require a new UPC or PLU code. This

5 would not disrupt commerce, and it would give the

6 small fraction of consumers that care about soil

7 the information that they need.

8 It's important that we take a

9 sensible, balanced approach. We do need to find

10 a solution. If NOSB cannot agree, we end up with

11 nothing, nothing more than a haphazard mix of

12 earlier recommendations and positions that are

13 both unclear and insufficient to recognize the

14 major changes that have occurred in organic

15 production since OFPA was written. 

16 I'm going to speak on eliminating the

17 incentive to convert native ecosystems. I've

18 come up here and mentioned this many times, so I

19 really want to thank you for the recommendation. 

20 I would urge you to send this proposal back to

21 committee to address a few details. 

22 The term "native ecosystem" is yet
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1 undefined, and the definition as proposed by Wild

2 Farm Alliance provides a basis for understanding

3 the types of ecosystems that this policy is

4 striving to protect. It offers a basis for a

5 practical verification method based on elements

6 that are easily observable.

7 Regarding your research priorities,

8 thank you for the inclusion of priorities related

9 to plant disease management and the development

10 of alternatives for materials on the National

11 List. That's a really important thing. 

12 As a trustee of The Organic Center, I

13 echo their suggestions to consider biodiversity

14 and the efficacy of practices as a topic for

15 inclusion in your 2018 research priorities. I

16 think this is especially relevant as the NOP's

17 new biodiversity and resource conservation guide

18 comes online. Thank you very much.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

20 questions? Emily?

21 MS. OAKLEY: Could you elaborate a

22 little bit on this new research topic of
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1 biodiversity? I thought I understood from the

2 webinar that the concern was that by increasing

3 biodiversity on the farm, you were also

4 increasing crop loss, so I wasn't entirely sure

5 if I understood that correctly or what it was

6 that the research you are suggesting should look

7 at?

8 MS. MEYER: Just to consider the

9 efficacy of different practices that are

10 happening and how that affects biodiversity.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much.

12 MS. MEYER: Thank you.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Justin Rich,

14 followed by Mary-Scott Standish. Justin, is

15 there a Justin here? All right, no Justin. 

16 Mary-Scott Standish, is that you walking up? All

17 right, sorry to put you straight on the hot seat. 

18 You're up next, followed by Esteban Macias. If

19 you could start with your name and affiliation

20 for the record?

21 MS. STANDISH: Can you see me above

22 the podium? Okay, I am Mary-Scott Standish from
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1 Fresh2o Growers. Thank you to the board for your

2 time. I would like to address the crop

3 subcommittee proposal concerning hydroponics and

4 container growing.

5 Fresh2o Growers is a certified organic

6 hydroponic grower of lettuces and herbs located

7 in Virginia. We are a family-owned and operated

8 small business which employs 30 full time office

9 and greenhouse staff. 

10 Our owner, Joe Van Wingerden, has over

11 40 years experience in the greenhouse industry. 

12 It was on a mission project in Haiti that he

13 first experienced growing produce organically. 

14 The people there needed a sustainable method to

15 produce food, and there was no available

16 fertilizer, so they had to source organic

17 fertilizer locally. 

18 He took that knowledge and experience

19 back to the United States and decided to start an

20 organic lettuce company. That is the mission of

21 Fresh2o Growers: to grow more organic produce in

22 a sustainable way. Our goal is to feed the
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1 future the freshest, healthiest, and most

2 nutritious produce possible while preserving our

3 environment.

4 If the definition of hydroponics is

5 changed to be defined as any container production

6 system that does not meet the standard of a limit

7 of 20 percent of the plant's nitrogen requirement

8 being supplied by liquid feeding, and a limit of

9 50 percent of the plant's nitrogen requirement

10 being added to the container after the crop has

11 been planted, it will take away our organic

12 certification and give field growers an unfair

13 advantage.

14 First, plants do not take up dry

15 fertilizer. They only take up liquid fertilizer. 

16 However, we do not use liquid fertilizers. We

17 use the same dry fertilizers as field growers,

18 and we dissolve the dry fertilizer in water.

19 Field growers do the same thing. The

20 only difference is their fertilizer is dissolved

21 when it rains. We control that part of the

22 process better than they do. We use the same
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1 fertilizers, except our use is targeted. 

2 Therefore, there is no waste and no runoff.

3 I think it is important to point out

4 that our greenhouse is located within the

5 Chesapeake Bay watershed. There is a great

6 concern in the Chesapeake Bay watershed over the

7 runoff from the agriculture because Chesapeake

8 Bay is literally being poisoned by the

9 fertilizers applied to the landscape, which is

10 then carried off into the bay by runoff.

11 Secondly, our substrate is organic

12 dirt. We use organic dirt and then we transplant

13 into water, and when we transplant, our substrate

14 is water. We add dry fertilizer to our substrate

15 just like field growers. All of our fertilizer

16 is already in our substrate, which is the water,

17 when the crop is planted.

18 Lastly, field growers use more

19 fertilizer per plant than we do. This rule

20 allows organic field growers to use as much

21 fertilizer as they want. The plant will use up

22 only what it needs, and the rest of the
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1 fertilizer goes into the dirt, feeds weeds, or

2 runs off to pollute water sources.

3 The fertilizer we use in our substrate

4 is used exclusively by the crop, and we use far

5 less than 20 percent of what field growers use.

6 These three points illustrate how

7 prejudiced this new definition of organic growing

8 is. This will give field growers the only right

9 to produce certified organic products. 

10 I urge the NOSB to support modern,

11 cleaner, and more sustainable and healthier

12 methods of growing by supporting certified

13 organic hydroponics, aquaponics, and container

14 growing. Thank you.

15 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you for your

16 comments. Any questions? Asa?

17 MR. BRADMAN: I had a question. You

18 said you use solid fertilizers and dissolve them

19 in water, so are you making, like, compost teas,

20 or what are the specific fertilizers that you're

21 using, and how are you dissolving them, and then

22 how are you delivering that to the plant?
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1 MS. STANDISH: We use all OMRI and NOP

2 approved dry fertilizers that are soluble in

3 water. Our mix is a propriety mix of dry

4 fertilizers, but the same as you would see in the

5 field applications, but we're just dissolving

6 them first and putting them into the substrate. 

7 Yes?

8 MS. SWAFFAR: Steve, you had your hand

9 up first.

10 MR. ELA: So I saw in your comment and

11 a number of public comments about the Chesapeake

12 Bay area, which we all know has had serious

13 problems, but are organic soil grown growers

14 there contributing to that problem as well? 

15 I mean, it seems like we're kind of

16 comparing apples and oranges in that and, you

17 know, my sense is most organic growers are

18 controlling that phosphorus nutrient, you know,

19 nitrate runoff through their growing methods. So

20 do you know in that area, are the organic growers

21 also contributing to that problem?

22 MS. STANDISH: I do know that there's
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1 a small percentage of organic field growers in

2 the state of Virginia. It's mostly conventional

3 farming in the state of Virginia when it comes to

4 field grown, so I don't know what you would

5 consider, if there is data on the percentages of

6 organic versus conventional that are contributing

7 to the problem. 

8 But what is a problem is that there

9 are so many parts of the country that do not have

10 the climate and weather that would allow for so

11 many crops to be planted, so we're trying to

12 contribute to our neck of the woods by growing

13 something indoors that is not readily available

14 year-round in our area of the country.

15 MR. MORTENSEN: Just to set the record

16 straight on the fertility issue in the Chesapeake

17 Bay region, that's an area that I work in

18 specifically. About 40 percent of the

19 phosphorous loading in the Chesapeake is from

20 human waste from sewage, and the other 60 percent

21 is attributed about 99 percent to conventionally

22 produced corn in the region. 
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1 So organic farming in the region is

2 considered not a contributor to the Chesapeake

3 Bay problem mainly because of the diversity of

4 crops on the ground and the use of cover

5 cropping.

6 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet?

7 MS. BEHAR: I know you said your

8 fertilizers are proprietary, but could you just

9 tell us what the actual sources are? We don't

10 need to know the percentages, but are they manure

11 based? Are they hydrolyzed --

12 MS. STANDISH: No, we --

13 MS. BEHAR: -- soy based, or

14 hydrolyzed soybean meal based, or sodium nitrate? 

15 I mean, what are some, like, the nitrogen and the

16 phosphorus sources?

17 MS. STANDISH: So we do use nitrogen

18 from fish emulsion, not necessarily directly on

19 the crop, but just as a source into our nutrient

20 mix, and then we use other dry fertilizers that

21 we bring in from our organic supplier.

22 MS. BEHAR: So is fish emulsion your
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1 main source of nitrogen?

2 MS. STANDISH: Our main source of

3 nitrogen is fish emulsion.

4 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you. Tom says no.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: If it's quick.

6 MS. OAKLEY: It's really quick. I

7 just wanted to make a point of clarification

8 because I've heard this through the webinar,

9 public comments, and here, that the intention

10 behind the 50 percent requirement in the

11 container was not that people load the containers

12 with dry, soluble fertilizers before planting,

13 but that they contain a substantial amount of

14 compost and/or soil from which the plants would

15 derive their nutrients. 

16 So there wasn't an intent that there

17 be leaching as a result of that, that the plants

18 would be getting materials or nutrients from the

19 compost and soil, so just a point of

20 clarification.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much.

22 MS. STANDISH: Thank you.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Esteban,

2 followed by Urvashi Rangan. Esteban, if you

3 could start with your name and affiliation for

4 the record?

5 MR. MACIAS: Thank you. My name is

6 Esteban Macias. I'm an agricultural engineer,

7 and I have a master's degree in horticultural

8 production. I work for a Mexican-based company

9 named Grupo U. We are vegetable growers, and

10 organics are about eight percent of our total

11 production. 

12 We are doing production in containers

13 in hot houses, and, well, we've been doing it now

14 for 12 years. I believe we were one of the very

15 first operations that actually started doing it

16 this way, and we actually started with trials in

17 soil and different production systems. 

18 So we had to make some decisions here

19 and for us, the technical solution to several

20 problems we had was the use of containers. Our

21 water quality and our soil quality were quite not

22 very good. We had a lot of salinity problems. 
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1 We had the option of trying to improve

2 that by using extra water to leach the salts and

3 do some organic amendments to improve everything,

4 but in the end, our region is a semi-desert area. 

5 We have a very limited amount of

6 water. We actually do harvest all the water that

7 falls for our greenhouses to be used on the

8 fields. So the solution for us, the technical

9 solution was to work on containers.

10 We came across that was also the best

11 solution for using nutrients. Over the last

12 years, organic fertilizer prices have skyrocketed

13 almost triple. So our container systems are very

14 efficient by placing the fertilizer, a little bit

15 of it at a time. 

16 I actually made a study with my

17 technical staff and this was actually placing

18 organic fertilizer, several different sources. 

19 So we used fish meal. We used soybean meal. We

20 used soy-based bean meal, different materials we

21 had at the time on our hands. 

22 We placed them on containers with
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1 soil, with actual soil, and we started irrigating

2 every week, and collecting and analyzing the

3 nutrients that leach from that. So we actually

4 found for every element how they were behaving,

5 and nitrogen, specifically nitrogen, once you

6 reach the day number 15, it's all released by the

7 microbes and then it starts dropping. 

8 So if we were placing 50 percent of

9 our nitrogen, our fertilizer just at once, after

10 15 days, it will be released, I mean, will be

11 lost either by denitrification as ammonia, but

12 most of it will be eaten by the plant. 

13 Plant relation with nitrogen is my

14 relation with chocolate. It doesn't have enough,

15 so it will take it, and that will not be very

16 good.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

18 questions?

19 DR. THICKE: Was that in a water

20 system? This is in a water-based system?

21 MR. MACIAS: No, we are working

22 actually a core mixture with compost, and
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1 minerals, and fish meal, and other stuff, so --

2 DR. THICKE: Okay, so perhaps if you

3 had some of the soluble or labile materials, plus

4 some more less labile materials, you could have a

5 different curve if they're mixed together

6 perhaps, right?

7 MR. MACIAS: Yeah, yeah, we start with

8 the nutrition on the substrate, but we tend to

9 keep it on a small amount in the very beginning

10 and then keep on adding. Actually, we add the

11 fish meal and we add the chicken pellets on each

12 container under the dripper to make sure it then

13 decomposes by the microbes.

14 MR. ELA: I'm curious when you water,

15 do you have water going through the containers

16 and coming out the bottom, and if so, how do you

17 collect that and what do you do with that?

18 MR. MACIAS: Okay, the container's got

19 a dripper on top of it, so we actually drip

20 irrigate each container, and then the containers

21 are on top of rigs, bands, so the water goes down

22 and then it's collected to be placed on our
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1 server, and then mixed with fresh water with less

2 salt and used for open field production.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

4 MR. MACIAS: You're welcome.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Urvashi,

6 followed by Marian Blom. Urvashi, if you could

7 start with your name and affiliation?

8 MS. RANGAN: Thank you. My name is

9 Urvashi Rangan. I represent U R Consulting. 

10 It's my own business. I previously spent 17

11 years running safety and sustainability at

12 Consumer Reports running test projects, label

13 ratings, and national surveys on foods, and I've

14 been to a lot of these NOSB meetings over the

15 years. I'm really happy to be here again.

16 As a toxicologist who has also been a

17 consumer advocate, I know how important it is to

18 consider the science in the context of the policy

19 work that you're doing, and making sure that the

20 OFPA -- which seems like a long time ago -- is

21 always top of mind in terms of what the intention

22 and the spirit of what we're all doing here
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1 really is.

2 I have lately -- I also wanted, Emily,

3 to address your question on what consumers want. 

4 There is survey data out there. Surveys are a

5 science. They're not phone calls, and I would

6 highly encourage you not to rely on phone calls

7 as a basis for making decisions, but rather ask

8 the questions and ask them in a scientific way so

9 that you can truly get the answers that you want.

10 These days, I've been spending a lot

11 of time consulting to the sustainable agriculture

12 foundation world, and I wanted to bring a little

13 bit of that perspective into this meeting because

14 it's really important for you to understand where

15 the outer world is in terms of funding and

16 sustainable agriculture. So Michelle, could you

17 bring that up?

18 Steve Etka has coined this my

19 eccentric concentric circle, but it is meant to

20 talk about the big word out there "regenerative." 

21 The funders that I work for are incredibly

22 interested in regenerative systems, and one thing
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1 that I'm reminding these funders, some who are

2 new in this space, some who have been there a

3 long time, is that organic is a central part of

4 what regenerative is. 

5 There are label programs out there

6 running that are going to launch without an

7 organic piece attached to it, and that is going

8 to undermine the organic program and organic

9 products in the marketplace. 

10 So it's incredibly important that all

11 of us in the room understand that organic is not

12 just central to regenerative, but it's the solid

13 foundation underneath it. 

14 And to the degree that integrity and

15 continuous improvement needs to be maintained, in

16 order to make sure that that little blue circle

17 stays strong and maybe starts to incorporate some

18 of the other things around it that are

19 appropriate in terms of continuous improvement

20 for organic, that's what it needs to be. 

21 Hydroponics, in my opinion, does not

22 fit these principles of biodiversity as soil
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1 health of regenerating topsoil that are frankly

2 part of the foundation of the OFPA. It's not

3 that it doesn't have value, but they should call

4 it something else, and USDA should come up with a

5 program for them so that they can express what

6 the benefits of their production practices are,

7 but they're not organic. 

8 Organic's really part of the soil

9 system, and it's part of a regenerative system

10 which goes even beyond organic, and labels are

11 going beyond that now, and it really behooves the

12 committee to look at that to see where continuous

13 improvement is necessary. Thank you.

14 MS. BEHAR: So just to be clear, do

15 you feel that hydroponic is a regenerative

16 system?

17 MS. RANGAN: No, when we're talking

18 about biodiversity, we're talking about building

19 topsoil, which is an incredibly important topic. 

20 We're losing topsoil. When we talk about

21 microbiology in the soil, these are all things --

22 you can't build biodiversity in a hydroponic
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1 system. You can't achieve these goals. 

2 Again, this isn't to denigrate

3 hydroponic systems. It's just to say you're

4 calling an orange an apple, and it's not, and so

5 call it something that consumers can understand. 

6 Make it really clear. 

7 Create boundaries around it, and

8 market the product as it is, and that's what that

9 industry should be doing rather than trying to

10 sort of piggyback on this, and then create what I

11 think will be likely consumer confusion as to,

12 "Why is this labeled organic, and that isn't?"

13 and to the many comments you already hear about

14 consumers feeling that the standard may be

15 getting watered down.

16 DR. SEITZ: Do you have any

17 information on how carbon sequestration compares

18 between soil-based agriculture and hydroponics?

19 MS. SMITH: I'm sorry, can you ask

20 that question again?

21 DR. SEITZ: Do you have any information

22 on how the sequestration of carbon compares
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1 between organic soil-based agriculture and other

2 kinds?

3 MS. SMITH: Yes, I don't have that

4 information; I think that's really good

5 information for you all to ask for, and perhaps

6 Rodale has that information, and Jeff can bring

7 that to your attention.

8 But the fact of the matter is, you

9 can't improve biodiversity or topsoil or

10 microbiology, per se, in a hydroponic system. 

11 That's more of starting with a sterile system,

12 making sure it doesn't get contaminated; putting

13 a lot of inputs into it in a controlled way.

14 But that's what that is; it's not

15 exactly what we think of when you read the OFPA

16 as an organic farm production system in soil.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you.

18 MS. SMITH: Thanks.

19 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Up next, Marian

20 Blom, followed by Jim Fullmer, and you can start

21 with your name and affiliation for the record.

22 MS. BLOM: My name is Marian Blom, and
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1 I represent the organic farmers and industry in

2 the Netherlands, and I speak here on behalf of

3 IFOAM EU, the organic umbrella organization

4 uniting farmers, processors, traders,

5 researchers, and certifiers.

6 My comment is relevant for the crops

7 subcommittee proposal on hydroponics and

8 container growing.

9 So there are three reasons why I

10 traveled 20 hours times two to give this three11 minute comment: firstly, I want to convince you

12 not to underestimate the importance of your

13 decisions for us.

14 If the NOP will allow hydroponic and

15 aquaponic operations, the conventional growers in

16 the EU will use this to put even more pressure on

17 the European organic groups, and this may lead to

18 the conversion of at least 1,700 acres to organic

19 hydroponic cultivation in my country, the

20 Netherlands, alone, at the expense of organic

21 soil-based cultivation.

22 By the way -- and this is the second
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1 reason why I'm here -- such a decision would be

2 quite contrary to the policy of the European

3 Union, so please allow me to update you on the EU

4 rules.

5 There is, at this moment, a political

6 agreement that above-soil production will be

7 forbidden by 2030, which is actually not such a

8 big deal, as currently, only on 50 of the

9 approximately 13,000 acres of European organic

10 greenhouses are these so-called raised beds

11 allowed.

12 It's a practice that's limited to

13 Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, and contrary to

14 what you may think, organic hydroponic production

15 is not allowed in the Netherlands.

16 So in other words, the European

17 institutions adhere to the principle of soil18 related crop production; organic crops produced

19 in living soil in connection with the subsoil and

20 bedrock, and with exceptions well defined, like

21 epiphytes, seedlings, sprouts, chicory heads,

22 ornamentals, and herbs.
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1 This brings me to the third and final

2 reason of my presence here. The strengthening of

3 soil-related crop production is an outcome of the

4 revision of the European law for organic

5 production, a revision conserving energy and

6 money, and it has lasted already for five years.

7 The European Commission proclaimed its

8 revision because Europe, in their view, needs

9 simple rules, close to the principles of organic

10 farming. This -- and we agree with that -- is

11 the only way consumers will keep trusting the

12 logo and continue buying organic products.

13 That is a consideration we would

14 recommend strongly to the NOSB. Thank you very

15 much.

16 DR. THICKE: Point of order, Tom. I

17 think you should say the name, because the

18 transcriber will have to know who is speaking

19 when they write it up.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: They have info from

21 the microphones, but we'll start with Steve.

22 Mr. ELA: Thanks. I'm curious what --
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1 and to kind of follow up on the question Dan

2 asked the previous speaker about the role of

3 carbon sequestration in organic agriculture in

4 the soils, and how that plays in your thinking,

5 or in your systems.

6 I mean, is carbon sequestration a

7 goal, and do your systems promote that?

8 MS. BLOM: Yes. Carbon sequestration

9 is very much debated at this moment in the whole

10 of Europe because of the Paris agreement, the

11 climate agreement, and it's been put into

12 national policies.

13 So every production system is trying

14 to improve their methods to allow for more carbon

15 sequestration.

16 However, I have not seen a comparison

17 between different greenhouse systems, if that is

18 what you mean. So I don't know if this

19 comparison on carbon sequestration has been done.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Harriet.

21 MS. BEHAR: So you said there was

22 1,700 acres of conventional hydroponics in the
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1 Netherlands. Is it a robust market, and

2 consumers are accepting a hydroponic label

3 without an extra organic -- they're economically

4 viable operations, or not?

5 MS. BLOM: Thank you for the question. 

6 Maybe I should make myself more clear -- I'm

7 trying to convert into acres now. There are

8 about 10,000 hectares in conventional

9 greenhouses, and they're all hydroponic.

10 And of this, there is a forefront of

11 companies who have expressed a wish to become

12 organic hydroponic, and these are the 1,700 acres

13 I mentioned.

14 But as such, the greenhouse products

15 that are produced in the Netherlands, the

16 conventional ones, they are very well accepted. 

17 But they are not specifically labeled as

18 hydroponic or anything; they're just coming from

19 a greenhouse.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Emily?

21 MS. OAKLEY: The Leaf system, or the

22 practice behind in-the-ground, in-the-soil
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1 production; would you say that's driven by

2 consumers or producers, or a combination of the

3 two in the European Union?

4 MS. BLOM: Well, it comes from more

5 sites. The discussion I'm very much involved

6 with comes from the producer site. They see the

7 added value of an in-soil production in

8 greenhouses, because it's already -- to say it

9 quite honestly, it is quite an artificial system.

10 You already have a roof over your

11 head. So the soil is what keeps the organic

12 greenhouse producers connected with the rest of

13 the organic producers, which makes it truly a

14 fundamental principle.

15 But on the other hand, you have the

16 European Commission, as I mentioned in my

17 statement; they did a survey before they started

18 the whole revision, on how the general public

19 would think that the organic rules should be. 

20 And there was a strong input from consumers,

21 saying that they would like the rules to be

22 stricter.
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1 So there are different discussions;

2 they come from different parties, from different

3 sites.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Francis?

5 DR. THICKE: Thank you. So several

6 quick questions. One is, did you say that in the

7 Netherlands, a lot of hydroponic growers are

8 growing it to U.S. organic standards, and they

9 can't sell it in the Netherlands, but they can

10 sell it in the U.S., they are selling it?

11 MS. BLOM: Yes, there is one

12 consortium of several companies together. They

13 are NOP certified. They produce in the

14 Netherlands; they sell their produce on the

15 American market as organic. They cannot sell it

16 in Europe as organic.

17 And that's not the 1,700 acres; that's

18 the smaller one. That's about 40 acres.

19 DR. THICKE: Okay. And if the U.S.

20 allows hydroponics across the board and the

21 European Union does not, what's that going to

22 mean for trade? Will there be some change and
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1 some problems with trade over time?

2 MS. BLOM: At least, we would call

3 upon the European authorities to re-negotiate the

4 equivalency agreement. That would be something. 

5 But at the moment, there are already hydroponic

6 products produced in America, and technically

7 there is no exemption made in the equivalency

8 agreement. So it can be traded in Europe already

9 as organic.

10 But if it will be really formalized

11 through this decision and formalized through the

12 regulations, I think we'd have to ask to start

13 re-negotiating the equivalency agreement.

14 DR. THICKE: And one quick last thing;

15 how likely do you think it is that European

16 Commission will consider the suggestion that

17 everything has to be in the soil; that that will

18 be adopted by the European Union? Will that

19 outlaw all container production? Do you think

20 that's very likely to happen?

21 MS. BLOM: Yes, it's part of the whole

22 revision. As I said, it's part of political
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1 agreement, it has to be acknowledged and go

2 through whole system.

3 I would say there is 90 to 95 percent

4 chance that it will go further.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you; Ashley,

6 and then we'll have to stop there.

7 MS. SWAFFAR: So, Francis, you started 

8 on where I had my question. So, containers; are

9 they allowed in your country right now?

10 MS. BLOM: Only for the exceptions;

11 for the transplants and the herbs.

12 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay, so you don't allow

13 any raised beds, anything like that? Everything

14 has to be in the upper crust of earth?

15 MS. BLOM: Yes.

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next

17 we have Jim Fullmer, followed by Kyla Smith.

18 MR. FULLMER: Hello, honorable NOSB, 

19 my name is Jim Fullmer. I am with the Demeter

20 Association in the U.S., Executive Director. I'm

21 also a certified organic farmer from the state of

22 Oregon. And there's Mark Kastel taking my
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1 picture.

2 I guess I'm going to lead where you

3 left, with the crust of the earth, and I'll start

4 there. Then I'll get into biodynamic agriculture

5 if I have time.

6 But I'll start with a slide of the

7 Earth. Those of you -- I was born in 1960, and

8 this was a famous shot taken from Apollo 17,

9 known as the Blue Marble.

10 I was 12 years old, but I remember it

11 vividly, and I remember the excitement of

12 humanity, of modern culture to be seeing

13 ourselves for the first time, collectively.

14 So I just wanted to make a testament

15 for soil in organic agriculture, and I'll start

16 with a British scientist named James Lovelock. 

17 Some of you might remember him; he

18 postulated the Gaia theory, that proposes that

19 the Earth herself is a self-regulating, complex

20 system, involving the biosphere, the atmosphere,

21 the hydrosphere, and the pedosphere, tightly

22 coupled as an evolving system.
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1 The theory sustains that the system as

2 a whole, called Gaia, seeks a physical and

3 chemical environment optimal for contemporary

4 life.

5 The outermost layer of the Earth's

6 crust, the pedosphere, going to Earth science, is

7 the sum total of all the organisms: soils,

8 water, and air. The pedosphere is the skin of

9 the Earth, and only develops when there is a

10 dynamic interaction between the atmosphere, which

11 would be the air above and below the soil; the

12 biosphere, which is the life, living organisms;

13 the lithosphere, which is basically the bedrock;

14 and the hydrosphere, which is water.

15 So essentially, this pedosphere, this

16 crust of the Earth, the outermost crust of the

17 Earth, is the foundation of all terrestrial life

18 on this planet, period. So this thin, fragile

19 layer is not only the foundation of organic

20 agriculture; it's the foundation of all

21 agriculture, of all life, and of human

22 civilization itself.
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1 So I argue it's a necessary foundation

2 of organic agriculture. And I know this is

3 philosophical; I have less than a minute to get

4 into the agronomics; soil.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jim. 

6 Harriet?

7 MS. BEHAR: So we hear from people

8 that our planet is polluted, and we have issues

9 with overspray and drift, and needing to protect

10 what limited resources we have. Can organic

11 agriculture, in fields, in soil, do anything to

12 correct that problem? Or do you think we just

13 need to abandon that and go indoors?

14 MR. FULLMER: Or go to Mars or

15 somewhere? I think this is where the discussion

16 of regenerate comes from. I argue it's the

17 premise of biodynamic agriculture, which is what

18 I do.

19 But it's the idea that you organize a

20 farming system in such a way that you're

21 generating a natural resource out of the living

22 dynamics of how you manage the farm itself;
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1 integrating livestock back into the farming

2 systems, specified and crop rotation. Your aim

3 is to build soil humus. For lack of another

4 word, that's a healing process.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Sue?

6 MS. BAIRD: When I was in Egypt, I

7 toured a wonderful farm that is managed by SEKEM;

8 are aware of SEKEM?

9 MR. FULLMER: Very much so.

10 MS. BAIRD: From Germany, and it's

11 biodynamic. They had literally turned the desert

12 into an oasis. But it wasn't the sand; it was a

13 biodynamic prep. It wasn't the sand, the desert,

14 that caused that oasis; it was biodynamic preps,

15 run through a drip irrigation. Can you address

16 that for me, please?

17 MR. FULLMER: Biodynamic preparations

18 in 30 seconds; I'd argue it was the whole system. 

19 And so Helmy Abouleish and his father, who has

20 now passed, literally formed a biodynamic farm

21 organism, integrating livestock, goats, the whole

22 thing, along with the biodynamic preparations.
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1 They won a Nobel Prize for not only

2 the social side of that, but the ability to turn

3 desert into arable land.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, I'm going to

5 go with Dave, and then I'm going to have to stop

6 there.

7 MR. MORTENSEN: Jim, in Marian's

8 country, the Netherlands, and in Northern Europe,

9 they don't allow the use of genetically modified

10 crops; it's just not allowed. I had the

11 opportunity to go over and speak there about

12 this.

13 Would you say -- and in our organic

14 community, we are very concerned about the use

15 and the contamination of organic crops with

16 genetically modified crops.

17 Would you say that the policies are

18 more in line in Marian's country, when they don't

19 allow genetically modified crops and have a

20 concern about growing plants in the soil, than

21 are policies on genetically modified crops and

22 organic agriculture?
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1 MR. FULLMER: You know, I'll reference

2 the U.S. Demeter Farm Standard, which honestly is

3 in a quagmire with the situation, in that the NOP

4 has GMOs as an excluded method. It really

5 doesn't address drift unless there is drift. The

6 U.S. Demeter Farms Standard has a position of,

7 none detected if tested.

8 And so it's a growing sector of the

9 U.S. marketplace, Demeter product, and it looks

10 highly unlikely that there could be biodynamic

11 corn coming from Iowa, for instance, just because

12 it's going to be contaminated.

13 So is that realistic, and is that

14 tough on it? I don't know. Is it tough on

15 farmers? Yes. The Demeter Standard would allow

16 a farm that had, say, contaminated corn and still

17 be a biodynamic farm, but it could not sell that

18 corn as biodynamic.

19 So whatever that means -- and I'm not

20 sure if that's answering your question --

21 MR. MORTENSEN: I guess I was trying

22 to think through; I was struggling with the
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1 inconsistency of our attitudes about policy. We

2 are frustrated, and we don't want genetically

3 modified crops; and I'm right there.

4 And Europe is, I think, much more

5 forward-looking and progressive there. I then

6 tend to look to the Europeans for what they are

7 thinking about soil-grown plants. And it seems

8 to me that the two are in parallel in Europe,

9 whereas we're going in the opposite direction

10 with some of our policies, between genetically

11 modified crops and soil. Or maybe almost in

12 parallel, at this point.

13 MR. FULLMER: With Europe, the same

14 would be as our colleagues in the Netherlands, so

15 the same with hydroponics also.

16 MR. MORTENSEN: Thank you.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next

18 is Kyla Smith, followed by Jo Ann Baumgartner. 

19 Kyla, if you'll start with your name and

20 affiliation?

21 MS. SMITH: Good afternoon, my name is

22 Kyla Smith. I'm the Certification Director at
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1 Pennsylvania Certified Organic. I also serve as

2 the chair of the Accredited Certifier's

3 Association Board of Directors. PCO certifies

4 over 1,300 operations.

5 I'll be commenting on the CACS's

6 proposal on excluded operations in the supply

7 chain.

8 First, I'd like to express PCO's

9 support on this initial step towards tackling the

10 issue of securing the integrity of the organic

11 seal in the marketplace. As our industry grows,

12 working together towards this goal is

13 increasingly important, and we will need to apply

14 a multi-pronged approach, utilizing all of the

15 tools available to us, such as guidance and rule16 making.

17 The approach recommended in this

18 proposal is sound; however, the execution may not

19 be. While the proposal stated that it did not

20 address labeling, it did hone in on the word,

21 labeled, used at 205.101, as required criteria to

22 allow an operation to be excluded from
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1 certification.

2 The section 205.101 does not specify

3 which labeling provisions are required, and there

4 are several. The proposal would essentially

5 require the labeling elements outlined at

6 205.303, on non-retail labels, which is covered

7 at 205.307.

8 It was stated at the NOC meeting

9 during the presentation on this topic, that the

10 regulations at 205.307 only apply to packaging

11 labels when the product inside that package is

12 labeled according to 205.303.

13 In July of 2016, an ACA working group

14 completed a best practices document regarding

15 products handled by uncertified wholesalers and

16 distributors. It included this statement: 

17 Containers of packaged produce may only be

18 labeled as per 205.307 when the packaged produce

19 in the non-retail container is labeled in

20 compliance with 205.303.

21 In January of this year, NOP conducted

22 its annual certifier training, which included a
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1 session on this topic, to clarify parts of the

2 ACA best practice document.

3 Specifically, the NOP covered the

4 labeling sections at 205.303 and 205.307. They

5 did not agree with the working group's

6 interpretation of 205.307, which as stated

7 before, would have only allowed product being

8 labeled according to 205.307 if the product

9 inside was labeled according to 205.303.

10 If the Board passes this

11 recommendation today, it will be imperative for

12 the program to provide further guidance to

13 certifiers to clarify if the revisions to this

14 guidance support the regulations or not.

15 With confirmation and further training

16 by the program, PCO supports this proposal. 

17 However, this is the critical piece; I cannot

18 stress this enough, as this message has not been

19 conveyed to certifiers in the past.

20 If the program does not agree with the

21 proposed revisions; if they align with the

22 current regulations, it appears that these
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1 changes would need to be made through rule2 making. PCO would welcome clarification in this

3 area, as there seems to be ongoing confusion.

4 Thank you for all of your service and

5 for the opportunity to comment.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Emily?

7 MS. OAKLEY: I have a question about

8 vitamin B1.

9 MS. SMITH: Okay; I may not be the

10 best person to ask.

11 MS. OAKLEY: I can wait and ask

12 someone else.

13 MS. SMITH: If it's more material14 related, Jen Berkebile, our materials program

15 manager, will be commenting later today.

16 MS. OAKLEY: No problem.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Scott?

18 MR. RICE: Thanks, Kyla. I would

19 whole-heartedly agree that we definitely need to

20 be on the same page, and would welcome NOP's

21 affirmation that our interpretation of the

22 standard is parallel with their own. So I
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1 understand we'll be trained on that again in

2 February, at our annual training.

3 Hopefully at that point, we will get

4 that affirmation. But I just wanted to offer

5 that.

6 MS. SMITH: Thank you.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I had a quick

8 question, comment on that as well. I read your

9 comments and much appreciated it. It was

10 probably an oversight that we didn't mention

11 205.307 in our document in sufficient detail. 

12 But the logic that we applied to

13 excluded operations applies to that section as

14 well, because it clearly states, labeled, and so

15 205.303 would apply.

16 But for a question to you; is your

17 interpretation of that section in line with what

18 I had just stated here as well? That to truly be

19 in compliance with 205.307, the product in the

20 non-retail-labeled containers must be compliant

21 with 205.303?

22 MS. SMITH: No.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: That is not your

2 interpretation?

3 MS. SMITH: And that's not what the

4 NOP had trained its certifiers on.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Which is correct. 

6 Our additional guidance related to 5031 is not in

7 there currently either. And so I would not

8 expect them to train to that either, because they

9 have not accepted that at this time.

10 Thank you. Up next is Jo Ann

11 Baumgartner, followed by Anais Beddard.

12 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Hi, I'm Jo Ann

13 Baumgartner, with the Wild Farm Alliance. On the

14 subject of hydroponics, we think it's important

15 that you consider soil biodiversity.

16 With regard to the NOP's biodiversity

17 conservation guidance, I want to give you an

18 update that the organic certifiers are starting

19 to comply with it, although most still need to

20 fix their OSPs, especially related to water and

21 wildlife issues, as you can see in our recently

22 published report on our website.
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1 But what I mostly came here to speak

2 about is protecting native ecosystems from

3 conversion. Thank you, NOSB, for working on this

4 issue. While the proposed rule is a good start,

5 some changes need to be made.

6 First, don't narrow the scope of

7 native ecosystem protection to land that has

8 never been cultivated or grazed. Most land in

9 the world that could be grazed, has been grazed. 

10 Some land that has been cultivated has recovered

11 and now is considered a native ecosystem.

12 Define native ecosystems in the rule

13 in a way that assessments can be made on species

14 present, using these four categories of

15 vegetation: natural, semi-natural, ruderal, and

16 cultural.

17 Sites dominated by vegetation

18 classified within the first two categories of

19 natural and semi-natural should be treated as

20 native ecosystems.

21 We recommend this wording as site22 supporting; a native ecosystem cannot be
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1 certified for organic production as provided

2 under this regulation for a period of 10 years

3 from the date of conversion.

4 Because of all these changes, we urge

5 the NOSB to send this back to the subcommittee to

6 get it right. The NOSB should clearly state its

7 intent to focus on the transitioning to organic

8 the 99 percent of land where prohibitive

9 materials have been applied; and to conserve

10 those native ecosystems that will be necessary to

11 support declining and rare species, as you see

12 here next to their degraded ecosystems, today and

13 100 years from now, when there will be much less

14 land available, due to increased population and

15 climate change.

16 Let's make sure the USDA label stays

17 credible. Thank you.

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Emily?

19 MS. OAKLEY: Hi, Jo Ann. I noticed

20 that a lot of the commenters referenced the Wild

21 Farm Alliance's analysis of this, and I'm

22 wondering if you feel like you can confidently
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1 state that you have a wide diversity of

2 stakeholder support for this revised definition

3 that you've proposed?

4 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Well, there were

5 over 300 comments, and a significant number of

6 them mentioned our comments. I think that they

7 feel confident that we know what we're talking

8 about.

9 And we are not just Wild Farm Alliance

10 exclusively, our board and constituents, but we

11 work with partners in the organic and

12 conservation world.

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Harriet?

14 MS. BEHAR: Hi, Jo Ann. As the lead

15 on this issue -- and I know I've spoken with you

16 many times; we've had what I like to call,

17 earnest conversations -- about being careful, I'm

18 totally with you on protecting those very rare,

19 pristine, and precious areas.

20 But also, I don't want to cast too

21 wide a net, to take away land that -- and as one

22 commenter did mention, like a takings -- I just
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1 want to make sure that we have a good definition

2 that can be verified.

3 Just having some old, tired pasture

4 that hasn't been pasture for 50 years, but has no

5 biodiversity on it; that could still be

6 organically approved; but lands that would have

7 regeneration of a diverse group of plants and

8 animals as a native ecosystem, that's what we

9 were trying to preserve.

10 So I know that that's a big challenge,

11 to figure that out, so we find the right line and

12 don't cast the net too wide out there.

13 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Yes. I did see that

14 one comment on takings; and takings have to do

15 with when the government comes in puts in a

16 freeway; they take your land.

17 But the NOP; it's a voluntary program,

18 so it's not taking. Yes, the way we propose to

19 define native ecosystems splits out those four

20 definitions, and ensures that lands that have

21 those native ecosystems, even if they were

22 previously converted to agriculture but have
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1 recovered; that they are protected.

2 There is a place within those four

3 definitions; the premier native ecosystem is

4 really easy to determine, and so is the cultural

5 ecosystem, where it's just weeds, basically, or

6 invasive species.

7 The nuance comes when you're looking

8 at the different between semi-natural ecosystems

9 and ruderal ecosystems; and in both situations,

10 the habitat was significantly changed because of

11 humans.

12 But in the cultural situation, it

13 never recovered fully, and it's because that land

14 cannot recover fully. It's surrounded by other

15 lands that don't allow the recovery to occur; the

16 natural dispersion of plants and animals, and the

17 way that wind and water and soil helps to

18 regenerate ecosystems.

19 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jo Ann.

20 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Thank you.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Up next I have

22 Anais Beddard, followed by Dave Chapman; and we
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1 are 30 minutes behind at this point.

2 MS. BEDDARD: Hi, I'm Anais Beddard,

3 and I'm the second generation of Lady Moon Farms.

4 We're the largest organic vegetable grower east

5 of the Mississippi, with farms in Florida,

6 Georgia, and Pennsylvania.

7 We've been farming organically for 30

8 years. Our success is based on the founding

9 principle that makes organic farming what it is;

10 feed the soil and let the soil feed the plant.

11 We focus on nourishing the land and

12 increasing our organic matter, which creates a

13 strong and robust base to grow a variety of

14 vegetables.

15 The most basic tenet of organic

16 farming is that all health in plants, livestock,

17 and humans flows from the immense biodiversity

18 that is found in healthy, organically-managed

19 soils.

20 Remove soil from the equation and

21 you've removed the concept of what it means to be

22 organic. Everyone agrees that straight
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1 hydroponics should not be organic. The debate

2 now is over semantics, with container systems

3 claiming they are completely different production

4 systems.

5 That is false, and while each of us is

6 entitled to our own opinions, we are not entitled

7 to our own facts. When you grow plants with

8 daily doses of liquid feed, that is hydroponics. 

9 Whether the roots are suspended in water or coco

10 coir, that does not make a difference.

11 And since we all agree hydroponics are

12 not organic, the same logic follows that

13 container growing is also not organic. The fact

14 is reinforced under OFPA. Several places

15 throughout the act, soil is mentioned

16 specifically, using strong language such as, must

17 and shall.

18 The intent of OFPA was centered around

19 a holistic growing system. It focuses on

20 building the soil, nurturing the ecosystem where

21 the farm resides. When you have strong soil, you

22 need less fertilizer; you have fewer insect
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1 problems. And guess what? Your plants thrive

2 too.

3 That allows us to grow successfully

4 each year, without heavy-duty pesticides or many

5 liquid nutrients. It isn't the lack of these

6 items that makes the production system organic;

7 rather, it's the production system that allows us

8 to be judicious with our inputs.

9 You cannot relate a closed-loop

10 container hydroponic system to this. Yet, some

11 regulations in OFPA are not applicable for

12 hydroponic container systems. The organic

13 certification process is difficult, that's why a

14 transition period was created; it takes a long

15 time.

16 Annually, we are audited for crop

17 rotations, cover crops, nutrients, soil tests. 

18 They are meant to understand how we are

19 supporting soil and the land where we farm.

20 Container hydroponics do not have to

21 meet those requirements, and thus they should not

22 be organic. We are at a point in organic history
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1 where we must stand up and protect this

2 production system, because it could be our saving

3 grace.

4 The greatest threat to our generation

5 is global warming. Soil-organic farmers are

6 combating this every day, using organic

7 techniques with the ground beneath our feet.

8 I view myself as the future steward of

9 the land that my parents raised before me. Much

10 like a child, it is my duty to protect and

11 nurture, and this is what will allow the land to

12 continue to provide for future generations. 

13 Thank you.

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Emily?

15 MS. OAKLEY: Do you support the crop

16 subcommittee's proposal that the motion on

17 containers, or are you opposed to any form of

18 containers?

19 MS. BEDDARD: I would prefer it to be

20 in the ground, in the soil. But I think we are

21 at a point, if nothing is passed, then we will

22 continue to have more businesses grow and expand
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1 using container production, and I do not agree

2 with that.

3 So I think, with our options, I would

4 be in support of the proposal.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Harriet?

6 MS. BEHAR: So that would be kind of

7 a compromise position for you?

8 MS. BEDDARD: It would be a

9 compromise. It would be a big compromise. But I

10 think we have such differing views, it is a

11 strong compromise, because it at least levels the

12 playing field a little bit.

13 We are talking about two completely

14 different production systems. This is night and

15 day, what we do versus what these container

16 systems do. So it's a huge compromise, but I

17 think if that's the option on the table, I could

18 get behind it.

19 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Asa?

20 MR. BRADMAN: Yesterday I used the

21 knife metaphor, like I'd like to cut myself in

22 half, so I could vote both ways.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: We didn't like

2 that.

3 MR. BRADMAN: Maybe this is Solomon's

4 knife. But I'm torn on this issue. Last week, I

5 talked with somebody who is a generational

6 organic farmer. The son is actually your

7 generation, maybe a little older, but second

8 generation.

9 He's been exclusively a soil grower

10 all their lives, in both contexts. And he's open

11 to these ponic methods, very emphatically, and

12 feels like it's totally consistent with organic. 

13 And he really came from the same place you came

14 from.

15 And without presaging your answer;

16 what do you think of the label compromise? Is

17 that a compromise, or would that essentially be a

18 sellout, from your point of view?

19 MS. BEDDARD: So you're saying, USDA

20 organic, and underneath, hydroponic?

21 MR. BRADMAN: I'm not sure what form

22 it would take. Maybe it would be a hydroponic
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1 label, but it would be run by USDA. Or it would

2 be -- I've seen it in the comments, aquaganics,

3 hydroganics. You know, there is a constituency

4 out there that's not just corporate hydroponic,

5 that is very grounded in the history of organic.

6 They take a different view, and I'm

7 being asked to judge this at some level. So I

8 would be interested to hear your comment as a

9 second-generation peer to this person who had

10 such a different view.

11 MS. BEDDARD: Right. I think there

12 definitely needs to be a separate label, because

13 consumers need to know the difference when

14 they're buying soil or hydroponic. I've talked

15 to a lot of friends about this, and most of them

16 don't quite get what organic farming is.

17 I had a section on it, but I was

18 running out of time, so I cut that all out. But

19 I think there needs to be a label. I do not

20 think using the USDA organic seal is the answer,

21 because I think that will lead to more confusion.

22 A separate label that does not have
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1 that seal; because if you have that seal, that is

2 what we are known for. That is organic farming,

3 and that is in the soil.

4 But I would be in favor, sure, of

5 hydroganic; something like that, yes.

6 MR. BRADMAN: What if it was run by

7 the NOP?

8 MS. BEDDARD: I'm really torn there. 

9 I think it needs to be something separate. If

10 the NOP was able to create a completely separate

11 label with separate functions; some similarities,

12 I'm sure, would be there, with promoting

13 biodiversity and being sustainable and renewable. 

14 But I just don't think it can be the

15 same USDA organic seal that everybody is used to

16 using now for soil organics.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, we have

18 to move on. Up next is Dave Chapman, followed by

19 Gerald Davis. Dave, if you could start with your

20 name and affiliation.

21 Mr. DAVE CHAPMAN: I try to keep it

22 exciting here. I'm Dave Chapman from Long Wind
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1 Farm, and I am a farmer; I think you probably all

2 know me by now.

3 And I was also on the USDA task

4 force, so I have actually investigated this issue

5 a lot. I also have a number of close friends who

6 are serious hydroponic growers, and I would just

7 say they're all very proud of how they grow. 

8 They're not embarrassed by it; they

9 don't think it's secondary in any way. I know

10 there's a famous comment in a C2F board meeting

11 by a member who said, Hydroponic is better than

12 soil growing.

13 So that's a different point of view

14 from mine, and they've always rolled their eyes

15 at me growing in the soil, thinking that it's

16 kind of cute and old-fashioned.

17 The NOSB has decided twice now in the

18 last seven years that hydroponic should not be

19 called organic; firs in 2010, and again in the

20 famous non-binding resolution, both of which

21 passed overwhelmingly.

22 So it's interesting that the
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1 discussion now is whether container growing is

2 hydroponic, and it's an important discussion

3 because probably over three-quarters of the

4 currently certified organic production comes from

5 two producers who are saying they are not

6 hydroponic; they're container growers.

7 So I brought a container -- just a

8 little fun and games, here. This is a container;

9 this is maybe the size that you might grow a

10 tomato in, in a hydroponic system.

11 This is a block of coco coir, which is

12 used in about half of the conventional hydroponic

13 production in the world. And Tom re-approved,

14 and when you wet it, it expands to about eight

15 times the size that it is now. And it kind of

16 looks like soil.

17 So it's easy to say, Well, that's not

18 hydroponic, but this is how most hydroponic

19 production looks like for tomatoes, cucumbers,

20 peppers, berries. If you just feed this water,

21 it dies, it starves to death. If you feed it a

22 nutrient solution, then it thrives.
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1 The bioponic folks are saying, Yes,

2 but we have biology with compost. However,

3 they're saying, We can't add more than 10 percent

4 of the volume as compost, or it doesn't work.

5 So it's not really a soil-based

6 system, and again, if you add water, it dies. If

7 you add a nutrient solution, it thrives. And

8 that makes it hydroponic.

9 So just to get -- this isn't

10 complicated. This is a simple thing. None of my

11 hydroponic friends would say, That's not

12 hydroponic. Of course this is hydroponic,

13 whether you add the compost or not.

14 Now, I think it's a fair debate about

15 whether hydroponic is better than organic; but

16 it's not a fair debate about whether this is

17 hydroponic. This is hydroponic.

18 What they do is, feed a lot this,

19 which is 16-0-0; a nitrogen, hydrolyzed soy

20 protein -- which, if you mis-mix it, will burn

21 the roots off the plant, according to John Spargo

22 at Penn State. So it's a hot thing, very much
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1 like a conventional fertilizer. I'm sorry I

2 can't go further.

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Dave. 

4 Questions for Dave? Harriet, then Emily. I'm

5 going to have to stop it there.

6 MS. SMITH: I might ask Amri this

7 question, but that hydrolyzed soy protein; does

8 that come from a GMO source?

9 Mr. DAVE CHAPMAN: Better ask; better

10 ask Amri that. I don't know.

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Emily?

12 MS. OAKLEY: I want to ask the same

13 question; if you support the crop subcommittee's

14 motion on containers in the proposal?

15 Mr. DAVE CHAPMAN: Yes, my answer is

16 similar to Anais'; I would far away prefer to

17 have the EU standard, that organic should be in

18 the ground; I think it's less complicated.

19 I do believe that you can have

20 something with about 95 percent of the benefits

21 of in-the-ground in a big container with a real

22 soil compost blend. I do support passing the
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1 proposal. I actually believe it's the last

2 chance we're going to have to save the national

3 organic program. I think this is it.

4 Divisive issue that's never going to

5 go away, unless it gets resolved at this meeting,

6 so I hope you will pass it.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, David. 

8 Up next I have Gerald Davis, followed by Davey

9 Miskell. Please start with your name and

10 affiliation.

11 MR. DAVIS: Gerald Davis, Grimmway

12 Farms. I represent Grimmway Farms; I'm also an

13 ex-NOSB member. I actually worked on the 2010

14 greenhouse and container-growing hydroponic

15 recommendation, and my comments today are on that

16 subject.

17 Grimmway Cal-Organic is the largest

18 organic vegetable grower in the U.S., topping

19 $500 million in sales in organic vegetables.

20 We grow 26 different crops year-round,

21 primarily on land which is owned by the farm. 

22 Grimmway is family owned and managed, founded by
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1 the Grimm brothers as shown here about 20 years

2 ago.

3 Today, the next generation of Grimm

4 family sons are taking their place, each in

5 separate production, handling, and sales

6 management areas.

7 Cal-Organic has grown with the organic

8 consumer demand by transitioning over 38,000

9 acres of conventionally-cropped land into

10 organic.

11 This land did not magically turn

12 around through simple input substitution of

13 organically-approved materials, but took years of

14 compost applications, green manure, cover

15 cropping, and proper crop rotation to be nurtured

16 to healthy soils.

17 One by one, these individual farms are

18 being stewarded through the healing process

19 toward quality, high-yield organic vegetable

20 production, matching or exceeding our

21 conventional division yields within the company.

22 It takes time and commitment to
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1 organic principles, which includes financial

2 commitment to not take shortcuts. Outdoor

3 container production is one such shortcut that

4 bypasses land stewardship and soil ecology

5 development altogether.

6 This production system does not follow

7 many sections of the organic regulations, and

8 virtually ignores the intent of organic

9 principles of land stewardship.

10 Such outdoor operations that have

11 sprung up in California have been wrongly

12 certified, since no statutory standards exist to

13 exempt them from adhering to land sections of the

14 law.

15 Greenhouse production; at the request

16 of one of our most valued retail grocery

17 customers a few years ago, we conducted what

18 turned out to be an eight-year feasibility study

19 of organic greenhouse tomato production. We

20 spent millions on this; we know very well the

21 answers to some of the questions you are asking

22 about this method.
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1 It is our opinion that containerized

2 production is merely a shortcut to bypass the

3 expensive and time-consuming process of organic

4 certification. We say, Let the hydroponics

5 production method develop its own marketing

6 label, based on the merits of their system; not

7 ride the coattails of a successful label that

8 doesn't match their methods or goals.

9 Any questions?

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you; Steve?

11 MR. ELA: Could you elucidate, in your

12 greenhouse systems, what sort of fertilizer

13 program you're using; what percent is liquid,

14 what percent is non-liquid?

15 Mr. DAVIS: Initially, when we started

16 it in the late 2000s, when I was still on the

17 board, it started out as about 25 percent

18 compost; coco fiber, rock minerals, mycorrhizae,

19 other bacterial inoculants, and we extracted our

20 nitrogen from stable, mature compost.

21 We did that for two or three years,

22 until the wonderful compost we had acquired ran
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1 out. After that, we switched to seabird guano

2 sources from South America. Eventually, the last

3 material we were using was -- we did use some

4 fish over the years; that was smelly and not very

5 nice.

6 And then the last material, the last

7 couple of years, we just used sodium nitrate. 

8 Eventually, we closed the facility and it's for

9 sale. We have decided this is not what we would

10 call an organic system, and don't see it as

11 sustainable.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Dan?

13 DR. SEITZ: Yes, can you elucidate a

14 little bit further on why you don't see it as

15 sustainable? I mean, what are the discreet

16 factors that really drove that decision?

17 And also, in terms of the quality of

18 the produce, whether flavor or nutritional

19 content or whatever; was that a factor at work in

20 your decision?

21 Mr. DAVIS: The quality of the

22 produce, from time to time was pretty good. But
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1 a lot of times, it was not so great. Feeding

2 tomatoes soluble nutrients day in and day out

3 leads to a lot of problems.

4 Whitefly infestations without

5 pesticides that really control them is a big

6 problem, and whitefly can do very, very well on

7 soluble- and nitrogen-fed tomatoes.

8 Bacterial diseases like Clavibacter

9 gave us a ton of problems. Again, it's well known

10 that feeding soluble nutrients -- nitrogen -- to

11 plants tends to lead to more disease. And we

12 really discovered that in a very difficult and

13 expensive way.

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Emily and Harriet,

15 and then we'll have to stop it there.

16 MS. OAKLEY: As someone who worked on

17 the 2010 recommendation, could you give us your

18 opinion about how the crop subcommittee's

19 proposal fits in line or not with that?

20 And I don't want to disparage the

21 minority view, but there have been some that feel

22 that it is more in line with the 2010
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1 recommendation, and I wondered if you had an

2 opinion about that.

3 Mr. DAVIS: My basic thoughts on your

4 recommendation; when I was on the board, we

5 worked on the pasture recommendation for years,

6 and we thought we had a very good, very

7 definitive rule that we proposed, and it

8 eventually became a rule. We just made the

9 recommendation, obviously.

10 I see your recommendation as what will

11 be subject to the same pitfalls. You will think

12 that it's a good compromise, and you're trying to

13 set up a system that you think will satisfy both

14 sides. But with what we see with the scofflaw

15 organic dairies that get away with it year after

16 year and not pasturing; there's ways around your

17 recommendation, if it's put into law.

18 You can't feed a crop in a container

19 on only 20 percent of the total nitrogen need of

20 the crop. It becomes a hydroponic system after a

21 few months, even if it's super well-constructed;

22 lots more compost. Eventually, in a nine-month
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1 tomato crop, it runs out, and for at least the

2 second half of the crop, you have a 100 percent

3 hydroponic system.

4 And the reason I say that is sort of

5 like what Dave Chapman just said in a simpler

6 way. If you withhold the nutrient feed, the crop

7 stops, and it will not harvest anymore within

8 just a week or two.

9 And so yes, that's 100 percent of the

10 need of that crop is coming from that; so how do

11 you put a 20 percent level on it? I don't see

12 how you can do it; I don't think it's

13 enforceable.

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. 

15 Harriet, and then we'll move on.

16 MS. BEHAR: Many of the currently

17 organically-certified hydroponic producers will

18 have an economic impact if we vote in the current

19 crops committee recommendation. If that fails,

20 would there be an economic impact on your

21 operation if more and more hydroponic operations

22 are carrying the organic seal in the marketplace?
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1 Mr. DAVIS: Not sure; I know there is

2 a large vegetable farm on the west coast that is

3 waiting, I hear, to see how this board and the

4 NOP eventually comes up with rules, and to see if

5 their floating lettuce program will be allowed. 

6 They would love to make that as organic.

7 So yes, if they were able to do that

8 and pull that one off, then yes. I don't know

9 where it would lead. When I helped craft that

10 recommendation, I had no clue that seven years

11 down the road, there would be vast acreages of

12 containerized blueberries and raspberries and so

13 on and so forth, proliferating through

14 California, basically doing what I was suggesting

15 we should allow for greenhouses; to construct a

16 good soil and make it as much like real soil as

17 possible, biodynamically and everything.

18 So the unintended consequences of what

19 I helped craft, I'm sad to say, I'm sad to see it

20 come to what it has.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. We'll

22 have to move on now, but thank you for your
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1 comments.

2 Up next is Davey Miskell, followed by

3 Tom Beddard. Davey, you can start with your name

4 and affiliation.

5 MR. MISKELL: Yes, my name is Davey

6 Miskell; I have half-acre organic greenhouses in

7 Charlotte, Vermont. I'm also a co-founder with

8 Dave Chapman on Keep the Soil in Organic.

9 And I think, with what we've proposed

10 and the work we've done with farmers around the

11 country, that you're going to see happening,

12 rallies that were the past month. I'm sorry that

13 you're not able to hear the comments of the

14 farmers; It didn't work.

15 Well, that's typical. So the 18th

16 rally of Keep the Soil in Organic was today. I

17 know a few of you came; I'm sorry that all of you

18 weren't able to come.

19 And they came from all over the United

20 States, as well as Costa Rica and England. It

21 was farmer-driven, and if the farmers like myself

22 and Dave Chapman and a number of the other
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1 farmers were completely concentrating on this

2 issue, we would have had a couple hundred rallies

3 around the United States, and at least 10 to 20

4 in other countries, but we all had to farm as

5 well.

6 So it's amazing what's happening. And

7 I think for me and the people at the rallies, the

8 first rally was at the NOSB meeting at Stowe,

9 several years ago. And at that meeting, Miles

10 pushed intensely on organic integrity.

11 For me what's happening is, the true

12 organic integrity is here; what's behind the

13 screen here. It's the farmers like myself, as

14 well as young farmers like Anais, who have this

15 commitment to soil; have a commitment to the true

16 precepts that are in the OFPA regulations and

17 rules.

18 These regulations and rules, what

19 we've heard back from, whether it's Dru Rivers,

20 who is one of the longer-term organic farmers; or

21 Eliot Coleman as well; organic has always meant

22 soil. And it's meant living soil, and it's meant
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1 improving the environment through our farming

2 practices.

3 That is not possible with containers;

4 it is not possible with hydroponics, which are

5 the same thing.

6 The other aspect that came out in

7 these rallies -- sorry, there was a previous one

8 of Tom Newmark, one of the leaders of the

9 regenerative.

10 I'm sorry my time is up. Any

11 questions? I'd be glad to answer.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Davey;

13 questions?

14 MR. MISKELL: I do support the crops

15 committee proposal; I think it's putting a finger

16 in the dyke.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Davey. 

18 Harriet?

19 MS. BEHAR: Are there any hydroponic

20 organic operations in Vermont?

21 MR. MISKELL: We prohibit it. Vermont

22 organic farmers do not certify any hydroponic or
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1 container operations.

2 MS. BEHAR: And there are sufficient

3 organic foods available in Vermont?

4 MR. MISKELL: Yes, in fact there's an

5 abundance. It's pretty competitive. We have a

6 lot of young farmers coming up. Quite a few of

7 them don't want to be certified because of the

8 denigration of the organic standards by the

9 national organic program.

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next

11 is Tom, and Jim Gerritsen is after Tom, although

12 we will be pausing for a brief five-minute break

13 after Tom. We are running significantly behind

14 at this point, so only five minutes, and I will

15 be strict on that one.

16 Sorry to have to do that right before

17 your announcement, Tom. You can start with your

18 name and affiliation.

19 MR. BEDDARD: Yes, Tom Beddard, Lady

20 Moon Farms. This is my fourth time in front of

21 you folks to testify in support of soil in

22 organic, and I always have a really well-written
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1 three minutes, right down to the second.

2 I'm up with here with nothing, because

3 I said to myself, You know what? This is the

4 fourth time, man. Either you get, or you don't,

5 Tom. And I'm wondering if everyone watching me

6 right now is going to get it.

7 Because here's my first question: If

8 we brought in 500 first-graders, and had a tub of

9 soil or this; and we said to them, Where's the

10 soil?

11 They would all know; there would be

12 no, Well, I'm not sure.

13 And I think it's the same with

14 pasture. You ask kids, What is a pasture? This

15 is easy stuff, and I'm hoping that all of us can

16 agree to what seems very common sense.

17 Also, it's not every day you get to

18 have something really important in your life. 

19 For instance, I'm here to try to keep Asa in one

20 piece. And I would say, You know, Asa? I don't

21 know why you're torn. I think we're at a

22 crossroads in history. And I think this is
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1 really, really, really important stuff.

2 Organic is soil; it just is. I mean,

3 I get that there's economic interest on the other

4 side. But, you know, it just isn't organic, and

5 it's too easy to be organic. Organic is hard.

6 Cropking, one of the biggest suppliers

7 to the hydroponic community, they said on their

8 website, The word hydroponic give no marketing

9 benefit, and raises questions and negative

10 responses among the general public, compared to

11 the more desirable word, organic, which commands

12 a premium price in the market.

13 This is what the other side is

14 interested in. Organic is soil; it always was,

15 it always will be. It's what brought me to it. 

16 There's nothing like a handful of soil, living

17 and alive, and just full of strength.

18 Backyard Farms, a well-respected

19 hydroponic tomato grower in Maine; Our plants are

20 grown hydroponically and are non-GMO-certified. 

21 We are not organic because we do not grow in

22 soil, which is a prerequisite for organic
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1 designation.

2 And I say again, get a class full of

3 first-graders and say to them, Is this soil? I

4 don't think any of them would say yes.

5 So it's my hope that we can possibly

6 bring this long-standing debate to an end, and

7 keep organic, keep the soil in organic.

8 As I like to say, What do we want? 

9 Soil. Where do we want it? In the ground.

10 Thank you all for listening.

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Tom.

12 (Applause.)

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Emily, then Steve.

14 MS. OAKLEY: So if you want soil in

15 the ground, would you agree with the CONSCIOUS

16 motion on containers, or would you prefer to see

17 production stay in the soil, in the ground?

18 Mr. BEDDARD: I'm totally for

19 production in the soil in the ground. However,

20 you're trying to get me in trouble with my

21 daughter. I mean, this is the thing; compromise

22 is what moves us ahead, and it's what's keeping
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1 us behind in Washington for the last, I don't

2 know how many years.

3 So it's so hard; I generally believe

4 in compromise. But my gosh, I believe in the

5 soil maybe more, and I'm fearful that the

6 compromise will be too hard to fully enforce.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Tom. 

8 All right, so I'll give you a little bit more

9 than five minutes. It's 4:22; we're going to

10 start back promptly at 4:30. Jim Gerritsen is up

11 first, followed by Linley Dixon; I recommend you

12 guys get here on time. We'll be starting up

13 promptly.

14 (Whereupon, the meeting regarding

15 above-entitled matter went off the record at 4:22

16 p.m. and resumed at 4:31 p.m.)

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, we are going

18 to get started. We have a quorum of the Board

19 present. First up is Jim Crawford, followed by

20 Linley Dixon. If the public would please move

21 their conversations outside or quiet down so we

22 can take testimony. Thank you.
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1 Again, if the public could please end

2 their conversations or move outside. Jim, you

3 could start with your name and affiliation for

4 the record.

5 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, I'm Jim Crawford. 

6 I'm an organic vegetable farmer in Pennsylvania

7 and a member of the Board of Directors of

8 Cornucopia Institute also.

9 When I became an organic vegetable

10 farmer in 1972, 45 years ago, the first thing

11 that I did was to make a trip through Emmaus,

12 Pennsylvania. Sort of a pilgrimage, to

13 familiarize myself with the work and ideas of

14 J.I. Rodale, the originator in the USA of the

15 concept of organic agriculture.

16 That trip started my life-long

17 education in organic farming, and that education

18 was all about soil. How biologically active,

19 organically managed soil could grow healthier

20 plants and cleaner, more nutritious food with the

21 least negative impact on the environment.

22 Since that trip, soil building and
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1 soil management have always been the primary

2 focus of our farming efforts. Most of us here

3 today, if we have ever heard of J.I. Rodale, I

4 hope most of us have, would have to agree that

5 J.I. Rodale would roll over in his grave if he

6 heard us talking, considering calling hydroponic

7 or container production organic.

8 I have an analogy that I think is

9 useful. We all here would probably agree that

10 human-caused climate change is a reality. Anyone

11 with any common sense knows that we must listen

12 to the scientists on this subject.

13 The only people trying to question

14 climate change are the corporate players and

15 their supporters who stand to profit mightily by

16 having us continue to burn fossil fuels.

17 Same case with the question of

18 hydroponic or container production being called

19 organic. Anyone with any common sense knows,

20 especially if they've heard of J.I. Rodale, that

21 soil is the basis of organic farming. The only

22 people trying to challenge the basic principle of
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1 soil in organic farming are corporate players and

2 their supporters and others who have access to

3 far more capital and much higher level of

4 technology than I have as a farmer.

5 The only people trying to challenge

6 this basic principle are those who stand to

7 profit mightily by removing the soil from food

8 production while still calling that food organic.

9 I have no quarrel with hydroponic or

10 container food production itself. But it is a

11 travesty to describe this as organic. That is

12 the plain and simple effort to profit from the

13 word organic while failing to honor the most

14 basic definition of the word.

15 In honoring the memory of J.I. Rodale,

16 I agree with my fellow organic farmer Elliott

17 Coleman, who says, quote, organic must mean grown

18 in biologically active soil, connected to the

19 Earth, and illuminated by the sun, end quote.

20 Thank you.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. 

22 Question, Steve, and Emily?
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: I have a question on

2 nutrient cycling. How do you see the difference

3 between soils in containers or hydroponics liquid

4 feeds on how nutrients are cycled and sequestered

5 and taken up and released.

6 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, how do I see the

7 difference in nutrient cycling?

8 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, what would you, I

9 mean you're talking about the benefits of soils

10 and such --

11 MR. CRAWFORD: Nutrient cycling in

12 soil based agriculture is, happens in the soil. 

13 In nature. Nutrient cycling in hydroponic

14 agriculture happens in man-made barrels or

15 whatever.

16 MR. ELLIOTT: You see, well, I'll

17 leave it at that.

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Steve. 

19 Emily?

20 MS. OAKLEY: You said grown in the

21 soil, so does that mean that you would or

22 wouldn't support the CS motion for container --
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1 MR. CRAWFORD: I would not support any

2 compromise, no.

3 MS. OAKLEY: Okay, thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Jim.

5 MR. CRAWFORD: Thank you.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Up next is Linley

7 Dixon, followed by Fred Kirschenmann. Linley, you

8 can start with your name and affiliation.

9 MS. DIXON: I'm Linley Dixon. I'm a

10 Policy Analyst for the Cornucopia Institute, and

11 I have a farm in Durango, Colorado.

12 Yesterday at the NOP meeting, the

13 concept was put forward about whether the organic

14 community should be realistic or idealistic when

15 it comes to organic policy in particular and I

16 actually really appreciated that thought exercise

17 because I went home and, or back to my room, and

18 I thought about it a long time.

19 I come out of academia and that made

20 me want to be more compromising and realistic. 

21 But at the same time, I thought about

22 environmentalism and imaging that the pioneering
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1 farmers were more realistic than idealistic and

2 where would we be today?

3 And I'm wondering if it's idealistic

4 to think that we should have to share the label

5 with mono-culture farms, hydroponic containers,

6 confined to animal operations. Is that too

7 idealistic to think that we shouldn't have to do

8 that?

9 I think these operations are only

10 temporary as long as there is cheap oil. So,

11 from an environmental perspective, which the

12 organic movement really is, we need to look

13 beyond that. The time to be realistic has

14 passed. The time to get organic right was

15 yesterday. From an environmental standpoint,

16 it's do or die time.

17 The frustrating thing I think to

18 everybody who has been organic for a long time is

19 that organic policy makers don't know what

20 organic is anymore. If you ask farmers why they

21 choose to be certified, the first thing they say

22 is because we want to let our customers know
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1 everything that we are doing.

2 We are rotating animals on pasture. 

3 We're multi-species cover cropping. We're

4 composting. We are, we are, we are. Oh, and as

5 a side note, because we are doing all these

6 things, we don't really require very many inputs,

7 their amendments.

8 I can't tell you how frustrating it is

9 to have to explain those really basic fundamental

10 truths about organic farming to policy makers,

11 changing organic to mean only approved inputs

12 used is completely redefining organic.

13 Real organic is well-defined by law. 

14 But there is a failure to properly certify it and

15 enforce it. I've seen these operations first16 hand. I don't know how they're certified. To

17 hide these failures is to participate in them.

18 Many of us promote the organic label

19 regardless of its disappointments. Cornucopia

20 tries to promote real organic farming and help

21 consumers find it. Real organic farmers are not

22 only knowledgeable, but they are idealistic. 
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1 They're deep thinkers in sustainability. Wise

2 leaders. Inspirations to us all.

3 They have taught us that real organic

4 farming is as much a way of life as it is a means

5 of making a living. They taught me that I can be

6 the change that I want to see in the world. 

7 After all, they were the change that we all

8 wanted to see, and they are why we are here

9 today.

10 Many young people are choosing this

11 way of life.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. 

13 Questions? Ashley?

14 VICE-CHAIR SWAFFAR: Thank you for

15 your comments. I'm not going to ask you about

16 hydroponics. I actually have a question about

17 livestock from your comments.

18 Would you know anything about that?

19 MS. DIXON: I don't, I do cross work

20 mostly. But I can put you in touch with the

21 person who wrote the oxytocin comment I'm

22 assuming.
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1 VICE-CHAIR SWAFFAR: Yes.

2 MS. DIXON: That was hotly debated.

3 VICE-CHAIR SWAFFAR: Yes.

4 MS. DIXON: Among our farmer members.

5 VICE-CHAIR SWAFFAR: Thank you.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Harriet.

7 MS. BEHAR: So, as a beginning farmer,

8 why did you choose soil-based agriculture instead

9 of hydroponic?

10 MS. DIXON: Because all the organic

11 farmers that I worked for were such heros to me. 

12 I guess there's not a hero in the container

13 movement that's an environmental hero. Maybe if

14 there was one I would be onboard. But I do

15 fundamentally believe that they are very

16 different systems and like many people who have

17 said to before me. I'm not going to go around

18 damning container systems or hydroponic systems. 

19 They are just different systems.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Ashley?

21 VICE-CHAIR SWAFFAR: So I am going to

22 ask you a question now.
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1 So I hear you talk about organic farms

2 and how they are better than hydroponic farms. 

3 Is your farm certified organic?

4 MS. DIXON: No, but we are in the

5 process of doing that right now because we have

6 moved our farm four times in the last seven

7 years. And we've been on land that previously

8 has been sprayed in those times. So it's been

9 very difficult for us to acquire land, but we are

10 quickly remedying that.

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next

12 is Fred, followed by Madison Monte. Fred, start

13 with your name and affiliation for the record.

14 MR. KIRSCHENMANN: Well, thank you,

15 I'm Fred Kirschenmann and I appreciate the

16 opportunity to speak to the Board. I was, as

17 probably most of you know, one of the first

18 National Organic standing Board members, and so

19 that was back a while.

20 And I think that one of the issues

21 that I would like to bring to our attention is

22 that, I think that most of us tend to try to deal
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1 with challenges that we're facing based on our

2 current circumstances and how do we make the

3 current circumstances a little better?

4 But I think it's important now, at

5 least from my perspective, that we begin to

6 recognize that we're going to make some major

7 transitions now over the next 20 or 30 years. 

8 That's going to have a major impact on the way in

9 which we produce our food.

10 And the major changes that we are

11 going to see is that we have had now, for almost

12 a century, a highly input-intensive kind of food

13 and agriculture system. Whether those were

14 synthetic inputs or natural inputs, it was very

15 much moving in terms that we had those natural

16 resources from which we could get those inputs,

17 and then we would simply focus on maximum

18 efficient production for short-term economic

19 return.

20 And as we think, as we move forward

21 into the future now, many of those inputs are

22 simply not going to be available anymore. What
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1 are some of them? They are fossil fuels. They

2 are minerals. They are fossil water. They're,

3 add into stable climates.

4 So we are going to see some major,

5 major changes which is going to require us to

6 really rethink our food system, and an input

7 intensive system will no longer be possible for

8 us. So we have to think about a food system that

9 will become essentially self-renewing.

10 And there were, of course, people of

11 great wisdom in our past, Aldo Leopold being one

12 of them and already back in the 1930s he advised

13 us that we should think about land health as the

14 major focus. And by land, he meant the entire

15 biotic community. Everything from microbes in

16 the soil to us as humans. And as he said, we

17 were not, we as humans were not the conquerors of

18 the land community. We were simply plain members

19 and citizens.

20 And we had to learn how to manage that

21 natural system in terms of land health and land

22 health, he said, was the capacity of land for
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1 self-renewal. And that's the kind of future we

2 have to think about as we don't have all these

3 inputs.

4 And this is where, I think, the issue

5 of soil becomes so important. Because if we are

6 really looking at a food system that is self7 renewing, then the microbes in the soil and the

8 life in the soil are the basic foundation for the

9 rest of the life of that land community.

10 And so I think for us to even consider

11 within organic, to have a system that is not

12 dependent on that self-renewing capacity, then

13 this is the wrong direction for us. And we will

14 find ourselves at some point in the future, no

15 longer being able to adapt to that.

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Fred. 

17 Emily?

18 MS. OAKLEY: One of the arguments that

19 we've heard often from proponents of hydroponics

20 is that we need hydroponics to feed a growing

21 population and to supply the demand for organic

22 food, but you are stating an opinion to the
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1 contrary. That, in fact, we need soil-based

2 organics because of the inputs that are heavily

3 reliant in the hydroponic system. Is that

4 correct?

5 MR. KIRSCHENMANN: Well, first of all,

6 I think there is a problem with that perception

7 that you just said, that we need to produce more

8 food in the future. We are currently producing

9 enough food to feed 10 to 12 billion people. But

10 with only 7 billion people, we've got almost 2

11 billion that are chronically hungry.

12 So it's not a question of adequate

13 production, it's a question of poverty. It's a

14 question of access. It's a question of a whole

15 range of social issues that we have to address.

16 And we also have to come to terms I

17 think with as we think about if our human

18 population continues to grow, all we have to do

19 is figure out how to feed them, you know. How

20 are we going to feed 9 billion people by the year

21 2050 which is something that we hear all the

22 time.
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1 And from my point of view, it's not if

2 the human population continues to grow. What we

3 have to come to terms with is another issue that,

4 although Leopold brought to our attention, that

5 is the problem of density of any species. And as

6 he pointed out, this is not just the density of

7 species out in the environment, it's also the

8 density of the human species.

9 And as he pointed out, was that from

10 his observation, anytime that any species reaches

11 a density which it puts it out of the integrated

12 whole of, again, renewing the life of the whole,

13 then nature always reduces that density.

14 And as he said, if one system fails,

15 she will find another. And so I think we have to

16 start thinking about our human population. Not

17 in terms of simply being able to feed them, but

18 the carrying capacity within again the land, the

19 health of the land as a whole and what our role

20 as humans are within that capacity.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Harriet?

22 MS. BEHAR: Do you think that the
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1 Organic Food Production Act supports a self2 renewing agriculture system?

3 MR. KIRSCHENMANN: I'm sorry, what?

4 MS. BEHAR: The Organic Food

5 Production Act. Do you think that addresses

6 some, kind of frames organic as self-renewing?

7 MR. KIRSCHENMANN: Well, you know,

8 when I was on the National Organics Standards

9 Board, there were several of us on the Board that

10 felt that we should add soil health into the

11 equation for a requirement for certification

12 because we felt that was kind of foundational, at

13 least at that point.

14 So we actually, the Board finally

15 actually fully agreed to that. And so we put

16 into our recommendation that soil health, the

17 maintenance of soil health should be a

18 requirement for certification.

19 And then, I didn't know this at the

20 time, but when we forwarded that to the NOP and

21 then they in turn forwarded it to the attorneys,

22 and so the attorneys have to always approve of
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1 these kinds of recommendations. And when they

2 got it, they, the attorneys threw it out because

3 they said regulations have to be answered with a

4 yes or a no.

5 And soil health is too complex an

6 issue. You can't answer that with a yes or a no.

7 And that's how we ended up with that,

8 you could certify a product organically so long

9 as it didn't use any synthetic inputs except

10 those on the approved list that was a yes or a

11 no.

12 And as long as you only use natural

13 inputs except those on the unapproved list, that

14 was a yes or a no.

15 So that's how we ended up with a

16 certification system that was primarily based on

17 the inputs rather than renewing the health of

18 soil, which again, I think is pickative,

19 particularly as we look ahead 20 years from now

20 when we are not going to have all these natural

21 inputs.

22 And, incidentally, there is another
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1 resource I would highly recommend to anyone that

2 questions the diminishing of resources, natural

3 resources, in the future. And that's Ugo Bardi's

4 new book called Extracted, which is now a Club of

5 Rome study.

6 And he goes into more detail than

7 anyone else that I know of. All these natural

8 resources that we are not going to have available

9 plus in the future.

10 So we really have to rethink about the

11 whole way in which we as humans are going to live

12 on the planet to make it more self-renewing

13 system.

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Fred. I

15 have to stop you there. We are going to move on,

16 given our time, but Fred, thank you for your

17 comments.

18 Up next is Madison followed by Mark

19 Kastel. Madison, if you could start with your

20 name and affiliation.

21 MS. KEMPNER: Okay. New name. My

22 name is Maddie Kempner, now. And I'm here on
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1 behalf of the Northeast Organic Farming

2 Association of Vermont.

3 I want to start by sincerely thanking

4 you all for your hard work and for this

5 opportunity to address the Board, and I'd like to

6 comment today on the crux of the Committee's

7 proposal on hydroponics and container production.

8 Normally when I address the Board, I

9 try to give a balanced representation of the

10 views of our members and certified farmers, but

11 since so many of our certified farmers are here

12 in person this week, I guess I can just speak for

13 myself.

14 As I've testified many times, NOFA

15 Vermont and Vermont Organic Farmers believe

16 organic production means in the soil, in the

17 ground.

18 You've heard a lot of testimony this

19 afternoon from hydroponic and container producers

20 around some of the reasons they have adopted

21 these production methods, such as limited land

22 base or water scarcity.
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1 These may all be perfectly good

2 reasons to use hydroponic growing methods, but

3 they are not reasons that that production should

4 be called organic.

5 Hydroponic production may be an

6 appropriate response to certain site-specific

7 limitations or challenges, but it is not the

8 response we need to address the greater crises of

9 our time, such as climate change, declining bio10 diversity and protecting and replenishing a

11 threatened and depleted supply of clean water.

12 Organic as a whole eco-system approach

13 to agriculture is the answer, and it starts with

14 soil. Increasingly, we are beginning to

15 understand the immense potential of soil to

16 sequester carbon and reverse climate change.

17 For generations, organic farmers have

18 worked tirelessly to build soil health, fertility

19 and biology. Looking to the future, that soil

20 and that knowledge is exactly what we need to

21 meet the ecological challenges of our time.

22 Some have argued that to say organic
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1 growing needs to be in the soil represents an

2 antiquated way of thinking. That it's anti3 innovation and close-minded and stubborn.

4 As a bona fide millennial, I am here

5 to argue exactly the opposite, except maybe the

6 stubborn part.

7 I want to argue that soil is not only

8 the foundation of organic, it is also the future

9 of organic.

10 Thank you.

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. That

12 was quick.

13 MS. KEMPNER: Yes, I didn't expect it

14 to be that short. Feel free to ask questions.

15 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Questions? Dave?

16 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, I appreciate your

17 comment about being a millennial. I teach and

18 work with a lot of young folks and I've been

19 surprised on the public comments that I've heard

20 the pro-hydro folks saying, you know, this is a

21 young person's thing. And in soil is an old

22 person's thing. I mean I've heard it several
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1 times.

2 Could you talk a little bit more about

3 your perception of your generation's view on

4 sustainability and resource use and stewardship?

5 MS. KEMPNER: No pressure. Yes, I'd

6 be happy to.

7 MR. MORTENSEN: Just in general.

8 MS. KEMPNER: Yes. No, absolutely. 

9 Thank you for the question.

10 I think there are a lot of folks who

11 argue that hydroponic is an innovative growing

12 method and I think it's attractive to a lot of

13 young farmers because they're often, have more

14 trouble accessing land.

15 And so it's a growing method that

16 allows production in areas where there is limited

17 land access or where land is really not

18 affordable to new farmers. And I really, as a

19 young person who has farmed, I empathize with

20 those challenges.

21 Again, it doesn't make it organic. 

22 And I don't think that it's really taking the
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1 long view. I think that soil, like I said,

2 research is increasingly showing the potential of

3 soil to reverse climate change. And I think

4 that's also something that my generation is

5 really focused on and trying to attack head-on.

6 And by maintaining organic production

7 as a growing method that values soil, I think

8 that's one way of taking the long view, I guess,

9 and maintaining organic as a system that really

10 represents ecological regeneration and true

11 sustainability.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: Thank you.

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Emily?

14 MS. OAKLEY: One of the Vermont

15 farmers, Davey Miskell, who spoke, said you have

16 a hard time getting young and beginning farmers

17 to get certified organic. I'm wondering if you

18 share that view and what we might do to try to

19 reverse that trend.

20 MS. KEMPNER: Yes, I think that's

21 another really good point. And I do see that

22 trend. And I, one of my colleagues actually
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1 recently compared the view of a lot of young

2 people, and I don't mean this in a disparaging

3 way at all, but compared that to sort of younger

4 generations' views on feminism, where, you know,

5 I grew up in a world where relatively speaking,

6 women do have a lot of equal opportunities and

7 are able to pursue dreams and goals.

8 And so it's easy to sort of disregard

9 or forget all of the ground work that was laid in

10 the feminist movement and in creating that

11 relative equality. And I think for young farmers

12 it's often kind of the same situation where they

13 come into farming with a lot of the same values

14 of ecological stewardship and a lot of the same

15 sort of approaches that older farmers take. But

16 they almost in some ways and, again, not to be

17 disparaging, may take that for granted. And may

18 not feel that certification is necessary because

19 they do feel like yes, I'm meeting those

20 standards.

21 And maybe they're doing a lot more

22 direct sales so their customers know that. So I
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1 think probably really more education about what

2 organic means and also maintaining the integrity

3 of organic is really important for its future. 

4 And I think by allowing in more technologies that

5 don't really meet the spirit of what organic is

6 supposed to be, I think it puts if further at

7 risk actually, rather than making it more

8 attractive to young farmers.

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you.

10 MS. KEMPNER: Thank you.

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Up next is Mark

12 Kastel followed by Jim Gerritsen. Mark, if you

13 could start with you name and affiliation for the

14 record?

15 MR. KASTEL: Hi, I'm Mark Kastel. I'm

16 the Co-director of the Cornucopia Institute and a

17 former certified organic fresh market vegetable

18 producer.

19 This meeting is your chance to end

20 corruption at the National Organic Program. 

21 Here's the pattern.

22 During the Bush Administration, we
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1 discovered that Big Pharma was adding genetically

2 mutated DHA algae oil to organic infant formula

3 and formal complaints were filed.

4 Career civil servants at the NOP sent

5 a letter to the certifier involved, stating it

6 appeared to be illegal and to explain. Instead,

7 they lawyered up and went to the NOP director,

8 who ordered the staff to retract their letter.

9 This corrupt decision was reversed

10 during the Obama Administration and the NOP, the

11 NOSB put the material on the National list. With

12 an annotation. It could not be processed with

13 Hexane. But in a big favor to the industry,

14 since there's no Hexane-free DHA oil, years

15 later, the rule has never been published.

16 When the country -- turned down by two

17 certifiers when they wanted to certify a small

18 porch as quote, outdoor access, the NOP director

19 at the time overturned the certifier, and ordered

20 them to certify the porch. Also illegal. DHA

21 legal. This is illegal.

22 As both the USDA and corporate
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1 lobbyists pay lip service to the deliberative

2 process at the NOSB, three materials including

3 whey protein isolate, where voted off the list

4 unanimously but when the draft rule was

5 published, one sentence from the lobbyists at the

6 OTA overruled the entire Board and the entire

7 public process, sunset process. Legal, but

8 unethical.

9 Now you folks have a decision about

10 hydroponics. OFPA is clear. It requires, quote,

11 careful fostering of soil fertility. It's

12 required by the law. How can you foster soil

13 fertility without soil?

14 But a past NOP director, in a secret

15 collusion with some of the largest certifiers,

16 quietly allowed giant industrial operations to

17 start producing organic products hydroponically,

18 many in containers, quote, containers. Illegal. 

19 Organic consumers are becoming more

20 sophisticated. Many want to purchase organic

21 foods not just because they are produced without

22 toxic chemicals, but because of the superior
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1 flavor and nutrition. You don't have the right -

2 there's a slide show on that tape. It's not

3 playing. Okay. I hope you will give me a few

4 more seconds since we are having technical

5 difficulties.

6 So this is your chance to protect the

7 true meaning of organics, rather than making it a

8 mere marking slogan. Like the EU, we call on you

9 to reject the potential rulemaking that would

10 legislate and legalize hydroponics and container

11 growing.

12 Instead, please make the bold

13 statement, asking the USDA to enforce OFPA and

14 the current regulations.

15 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Mark.

16 MR. KASTEL: Otherwise, I went over

17 just a couple.

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Mark.

19 MR. KASTEL: Thank you.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Any questions for

21 Mark?

22 MR. KASTEL: To address, Ashley, if
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1 you have a question concerning organic livestock,

2 I run that team at Cornucopia.

3 VICE-CHAIR SWAFFAR: Great. Okay,

4 I'll ask you that, Mark. So on your comments on

5 oxytocin, you said that you would support their

6 relisting but only with an annotation --

7 MR. KASTEL: Can you talk closer to

8 the microphone? I can't hear you.

9 VICE-CHAIR SWAFFAR: Okay. So on the

10 oxytocin, you said that you would support

11 relisting with an annotation. And we heard from

12 a lot of farmers that they don't need it. Did

13 you hear from a lot of your members that they

14 needed it?

15 MR. KASTEL: We heard from some that

16 it was an important post-reproduction tool. We

17 heard from some, we heard from many farmers that

18 said they don't require and they don't need it

19 and use alternatives.

20 If you read our comments, we want to

21 make sure that there's really rigorous and robust

22 language that would control its usage because
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1 there is a history with oxytocin of abuse being

2 used as a production tool.

3 And that would be obviously contrary

4 to a philosophy of organic, caring for your

5 cattle in a natural manner. And would not be

6 consistent with consumer expectations that

7 hormones are not used in organic livestock

8 production.

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Harriet?

10 MS. BEHAR: You are aware that the

11 livestock subcommittee voted to remove oxytocin

12 from the National list and so would you support

13 that as the Chair of Cornucopia?

14 MR. KASTEL: We wouldn't vigorously

15 oppose that and our information, our testimony

16 was for information trying to deliver a message

17 for some of the livestock producers out there. 

18 Dairy producers who voiced a preference.

19 We went out with a questionnaire to

20 our membership and that was the response we got

21 from probably a minority but a sizable minority

22 of the comments that we received back.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Lisa?

2 MS. STOKKE: Can you just quantify in

3 numbers what that sizable minority --

4 MR. KASTEL: I'm sorry, I don't have

5 that with me.

6 MS. STOKKE: Okay.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Dave and Ashley,

8 we'll have to stop it there.

9 MR. MORTENSEN: Mark, you covered a

10 number of subjects during the course of the three

11 minutes, and could you give us a sense and,

12 again, I'm big on mental sensitivity analyses. 

13 What is the scope of the hydroponic decision in

14 relation to some of the other things you covered

15 in its importance?

16 MR. KASTEL: Well, I'll give you two

17 macral aspects to your question.

18 MR. MORTENSEN: Thank you.

19 MR. KASTEL: One, and I'm sorry the

20 slide show didn't work. The scale of these

21 production facilities is not illustrated by this

22 oral comment. It's mind boggling.
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1 These are some of the largest multi2 million dollar complexes with many, dozens of

3 acres under glass. Most of the hydroponic

4 production in America today comes from the desert

5 Southwest and Mexico. It comes from Holland and

6 other countries where it is illegal to label in

7 those countries.

8 So organics was formed, when I got

9 involved in organics as both a grower and then

10 doing consulting work for some of the larger

11 farmer cooperatives and the Farmers' Union.

12 This was an economic justice vehicle. 

13 Family farmers have been crushed. This was an

14 opportunity to have a more loving and respectful

15 relationship with our customers.

16 So we've been rewarded for, these

17 folks are riding our tail. They want the

18 marketing cache of the organic label without

19 doing the heavy lifting. And this dovetails into

20 your other aspect of your question.

21 We know why consumers first come to

22 organic food. And it's selfish. And there's
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1 nothing wrong with that. It's hard-wired into

2 the, it's all brain stemming. Chemistry. We

3 want the safest and most nutritious food for our

4 families. Children are involved. Very

5 emotional.

6 We used to fight other peoples over

7 hunting lands and gathering rights. But we are

8 seeing more and more, a higher percentage of

9 organic consumers are becoming sophisticated

10 enough to understand the differences between

11 nutritional content in organic food, both in

12 livestock and crop production.

13 I'd like to cite one study that the

14 USDA conducted in 1950 that was replicated in

15 1999. They looked at the essential nutrients in

16 fruits and vegetables and they have found that a

17 third of them went down as much as a third during

18 that 50 year period. That's one of the reasons

19 people turn to organic foods, is they think they

20 are paying a premium for a premium superior

21 product. And just eliminating toxic chemicals

22 and growing them in a semi-inert media and liquid
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1 fertilizer isn't organic. I hope that answers

2 your question.

3 MR. MORTENSEN: Thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Mark. 

5 Ashley? No? You're good? Okay. Thank you

6 Mark.

7 MR. KASTEL: Thank you very much. And

8 I have 5,000 signatures here, a very high

9 percentage from farmers who would ask you to pass

10 a resolution supporting OFPA instead of what's on

11 the table right now.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Up next we have Jim

13 Gerritsen followed by Johanna Mirenda. Right now

14 we are running 40 minutes behind. Jim, we can

15 start with your name and affiliation? Is Jim's

16 mic on?

17 MR. GERRITSEN: Okay. Jim Gerritsen,

18 I'm a farmer on Wood Prairie Family Farm in

19 Northern Maine.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Go ahead Jim.

21 MR. GERRITSEN: Okay. We've been

22 farming for over 40 years. We farm 56 acres. 
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1 Our primary cash crop is organic seed potatoes

2 which is a crop that is hard on the soil. For

3 that reason, we have a long rotation, and at any

4 one time two-thirds of our soil is in cover

5 crops. And at this moment, every bit of our land

6 is in cover crop, including land that we finished

7 harvesting potatoes on three weeks ago. So we

8 value soil, as my friend Jack Lazor says, if you

9 treat the soil well, the soil will treat you

10 well. And that's our motto that we live by.

11 So, I am circulating around a piece by

12 Bart Hall-Beyer, a colleague who was not able to

13 make it here, but he's an experienced farmer and

14 inspector who has inspected almost a million

15 acres and his believe is that hydroponic

16 operations are inherently un-inspectable, and I

17 think it's important that you consider that. 

18 Those are his comments and I am presenting them,

19 handing that to you on his behalf.

20 What I want to relate, we've been

21 farming 40 years. In addition to that, I served

22 as a volunteer on the MOFGA Certification
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1 Committee for 25 years. So I would make,

2 probably, monthly, 300 mile round trip meetings

3 for 25 years. And one of the things, when I

4 started in the mid-80s, I was on a subcommittee

5 that was giving input to Kathleen Merrigan

6 working in Senator Leahy's office, and coming up

7 with the OFPA language for the Organic Foods

8 Production Act.

9 What was plain to all of us working on

10 that was that soil was the foundation of organic. 

11 And I think that the various problems that we

12 have in organic today comes from a failure of the

13 National Organic Program to live by the spirit

14 and the letter of OFPA and I think if they would

15 do that, then a lot of these apparently

16 complicated problems would go away.

17 So I think a lot of the problem has

18 been the NOP's failure to enforce OFPA. I think

19 OFPA was a very well done, not perfect, but a

20 very well done law, and I think proper

21 enforcement would resolve this. And that means

22 the spirit of OFPA is in the soil in the ground. 
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1 And I think that's what the NOSB should be

2 supporting, and I think that's what NOP should

3 have been enforcing themselves right along. And

4 I think the mess we're in now is because the USDA

5 made a gross mistake in interpreting that

6 hydroponics was okay maybe ten years ago.

7 And now we're on a slippery slope and

8 I think we have a real problem trying to correct

9 this basic mistake. But ultimately NOP needs to

10 enforce OFPA.

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Jim. 

12 Emily?

13 MS. OAKLEY: So the same question. 

14 You don't support the compromise position of

15 container growing definition or motion?

16 MR. GERRITSEN: I support OFPA and the

17 spirit of OFPA is in the soil in the ground. So

18 if I were a member of the NOSB, what I would do

19 is make a motion on a non-substantial change as a

20 substitution and encourage the USDA NOP to

21 enforce OFPA and that includes in the soil, in

22 the ground.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Harriet?

2 MS. BEHAR: I find this test written

3 testimony by Bart Hall very interesting, having

4 been an organic inspector myself and I had not

5 really thought about that. Because it's relying

6 just on liquid inputs and three days before the

7 inspector shows up, you just take the other stuff

8 out and bring the organic in. Because I know I

9 spent many, many hours out there in the field and

10 I carried a little trowel and we dug around. I

11 mean, we were in the soil and that was a very

12 important part of the organic inspection was

13 really looking at the soil.

14 So I just find that somewhat

15 compelling and something I hadn't thought of.

16 MR. GERRITSEN: That's why I'm sharing

17 it. Bart had hoped to make this meeting and he

18 wasn't able to, and I thought the content of that

19 is so important in your consideration. I don't

20 think it's enforceable if it's passed.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Jim. Up

22 next is Johanna, followed by Lisa Stokke. 
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1 Johanna, you can start with your name and

2 affiliation.

3 MS. MIRENDA: Good afternoon. My name

4 is Johanna Mirenda. I'm the technical director

5 at OMRI, the Organic Materials Review Institute. 

6 To start my comments, I'll reiterate one issue

7 from our written comments regarding the handling

8 subcommittee's proposal to change the

9 classification of potassium acid tartrate from a

10 non-agricultural synthetic substance to an

11 agricultural non-synthetic substances, and move

12 the substance from 605 feed to 606.

13 OMRI agrees with that proposal to

14 classify potassium acid tartrate as an

15 agricultural substance and a non-synthetic

16 substance. This decision aligns with the

17 policies and definitions provided by the NOP in

18 the Final Guidance on Classification of

19 Materials.

20 We encourage the NOSB's continued use

21 of these guidance documents on the classification

22 of materials to assess petition materials and to
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1 evaluate listed materials during sunset. Your

2 activities in this regard are essential to bring

3 accuracy and consistency to the classification of

4 Nationalist materials as synthetic or non5 synthetic agricultural or non-agricultural.

6 And to end my comments, I'll mention

7 one thing regarding the inerts working group. At

8 the Fall 2015 meeting, the NOSB passed a

9 recommendation to revise the annotation for

10 inerts on the National list and at long last,

11 finally resolved the pesky annotation referencing

12 EPA List 3 and 4 which have been obsolete for

13 over a decade.

14 The inerts working group made regular

15 updates at these meetings in preparation for that

16 recommendation so I'm respectfully encouraging

17 the Board to continue updating the organic

18 community with the progress of implementing that

19 recommendation. Thank you.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Harriet, then Dan.

21 MS. BEHAR: I warned you about this.

22 MS. MIRENDA: I'm ready.
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1 MS. BEHAR: So tobacco dust, nicotine

2 sulfate, is on the 602 as a prohibited natural in

3 cross-production. However, if it's growing in a

4 field, somebody could be using as a cover crop or

5 could that be done? How about a compost feed

6 stock? And how about as a para -- an external

7 parasiticide for livestock? Would any of those

8 uses be allowed in OMRI's point of view?

9 MS. MIRENDA: In terms of growing

10 tobacco and tilling it into the soil, from OMRI's

11 perspective, just based on general conversation,

12 not something that's come across our organization

13 for formal decision, but that seems totally

14 allowable by the standard. Whereas an input

15 material formulated with tobacco dust or any

16 other type of material that could be assessed

17 under the Standard of Identity of tobacco dust,

18 nicotine sulfate, that would be prohibited as a

19 crop input material.

20 MS. BEHAR: Compost feed stock?

21 MS. MIRENDA: As a compost feed stock,

22 we I believe OMRI has seen whole tobacco leaves
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1 used as a compost feed stock and we generally did

2 not think that was a prohibited use, dictated by

3 205-602. Part of the discussion is some concern

4 about the Standard of Identity of what is on the

5 National list as tobacco dust is being

6 prohibited.

7 My understanding of the NOSB's

8 deliberations in developing the National list is

9 that nicotine derivatives were being discussed as

10 the prohibited natural material but what we see

11 on the National list now is tobacco dust.

12 So this could be a good candidate for

13 a technical report to get a really firm grasp on

14 the many different materials that might be

15 commercially available and which ones are

16 specifically prohibited by that listing on 602.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Dan?

18 MS. MIRENDA: For livestock use? It's

19 a non-synthetic, not on 604 allowed.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Dan.

21 DR. SEITZ: Occasionally I hear that

22 with hydroponic operations there are materials or
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1 inputs used that are proprietary. And just as

2 someone who's not in the field as a public

3 member, are the materials that you sell, are they

4 proprietary in terms of what the formulations are

5 or would someone buying them know exactly what's

6 in the material that you sell but the person who

7 uses the product might not wish to divulge its

8 contents.

9 So I'm just trying to understand how

10 proprietary works in terms of your products or

11 someone who might be using them in their

12 operation.

13 MS. MIRENDA: Sure. So when a input

14 manufacturer applies to OMRI for verification,

15 they're required to disclose in full their entire

16 formulation, including the full manufacturing

17 process of every ingredient.

18 So OMRI knows all of that proprietary

19 information. One of the benefits of applying to

20 OMRI is that we keep that confidential as opposed

21 to that manufacturer going to every certifier,

22 giving their information, and every certifier
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1 making their own determination.

2 So OMRI keeps that information

3 confidential and in place we publish all our

4 policies for how we evaluate brand name materials

5 on our website and in our Standards manual so

6 that our, the process for our decision-making is

7 transparent but the individual formulations are

8 protected.

9 DR. SEITZ: So are you saying that if

10 a certifier wanted to know what was in this

11 substance, the product, they would not have

12 access to that. They take on faith through the

13 procedure that you have published that, indeed,

14 it doesn't have any prohibited substances.

15 MS. MIRENDA: That's correct. And our

16 contracts include a clause that, should the NOP

17 require OMRI to disclose information in order to

18 resolve a conflicting materials decision or to

19 assess our practices that they're in line, that

20 we will share that information with the NOP.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you.

22 MS. BAIRD: I do have to follow up on
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1 that. If a manufacturer applies to a certifier

2 and they would reveal that proprietary

3 information to that certifier as well. Not

4 necessarily just to you. I think there's

5 misconception there. Certifiers, if they apply

6 to an individual certifier, they do have to

7 supply that proprietary information.

8 MS. MIRENDA: Yes, that's true.

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next

10 is Lisa, followed by Michael Bessencon. Lisa, if

11 you can start with your name and affiliation for

12 the record.

13 MS. STOKKE: Thank you Tom. My name

14 is Lisa Stokke and I'm a Founder and Executive

15 Director of Next7.org. And you will see on the

16 screen behind you the number of people that I'm

17 here to represent. It says 86,269 people and

18 counting because it's going up rapidly by the

19 minute. We've actually gotten 70,000 in the last

20 24 hours, just alone, to say that they care about

21 this issue.

22 So I'm going to tell you about the
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1 petition and what it is, since I am here to

2 represent exactly what this community of people

3 have signed.

4 It says, we stand with the community

5 of organic farmers and consumers that rely upon

6 organic food and agriculture for not only the

7 nutritious and clean food that it provides, but

8 also as the solution for a sustainable future

9 through regenerative agricultural practices.

10 The organic farmers that pioneered the

11 organic revolution decades ago did so in the

12 interest of our health and that of the soil,

13 plants, water and animals to create a system of

14 agriculture we can pass down to the next

15 generations.

16 Organic consumers understand that when

17 they purchase organic food, it is an investment

18 in our future, our planet, and their personal

19 health. All of which are interdependent and

20 inseparable. What we do to the Earth, we do to

21 ourselves. Which is why so many people have

22 chosen to eat organic food for the promise of a
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1 hopeful future for ourselves and also Earth.

2 The currently permitted organic

3 certification of hydroponically grown food in

4 recent years has deceived consumers as it is not

5 grown in the soil and in accordance with

6 traditional nor certifiable organic practices. 

7 Consumers have come to expect and rely upon

8 healthy food grown in the soil when they buy

9 organic which is based upon the regulatory

10 framework in partnership with organic farmers in

11 the U.S.

12 It is disingenuous at the very least

13 to allow the production and sale of this food as

14 organic. Hydroponic food does not meet organic

15 standards as set forth by organic farmers and

16 subsequently passed NOS feed boards and the

17 National Organic Program. Allowing hydroponics

18 to be certified as organic erodes the public

19 trust and the organic label and is a great

20 disservice to the farmers whom we rely upon.

21 OFPA specifically states, an organic

22 plan shall contain provisions designed to foster
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1 sole fertility primarily through the management

2 of the organic content of the soil through proper

3 tillage, crop rotation and manuring.

4 Hydroponically grown food, plants that

5 receive their primary nutrients through an

6 artificial feeding tube instead of the fertility

7 health and vitality of the soil, are not

8 qualified to be certified as organic and

9 therefore should not be.

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you Lisa. 

11 Any questions for Lisa? Thank you Lisa.

12 MS. STOKKE: Thank you for your time.

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Up next is Michael,

14 followed by Jeff Moyer. Michael, if you'd start

15 with your name and affiliation for the record.

16 MR. BESANCON: Thanks for the

17 opportunity to speak to you. My name is Michael 

18 Besancon. I'm representing Patagonia and 17

19 other brands of organic, organic brands in the

20 industry.

21 Personally, this is my 48th year

22 selling organics. My last position when I
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1 retired was Senior Global Vice President of

2 Purchasing, Marketing, and Distribution for Whole

3 Foods Market.

4 It's our believe that the inclusion of

5 hydroponic in the organic label is detrimental to

6 the label and I think that there's, the

7 conversation that I've heard today is compelling. 

8 And the soil and the farmers and all of those

9 issues. But for me there's an overriding issue

10 here on the damage that this will do.

11 And that is that we all, in the room,

12 or many of us in the room, has our personal brand

13 or our company's brands or associations are

14 organic. And that brand is at risk. We keep

15 talking about a movement but, in a label, but

16 organic is more than that.

17 Organic is a brand. It's a stand18 alone brand. And every marketer will tell you

19 that when the consumer loses confidence in the

20 brand, the sales go down. We see it all the

21 time.

22 And the, currently, my experience
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1 anecdotally, with farmers, with consumers, with

2 vendors, is there is a lack of confidence in the

3 brand. And I think it's incumbent and essential

4 that this organization, this Board, protect the

5 brand for all of the people in the room and all

6 the people who are in the organic business, that

7 they don't lose their livelihoods and lose

8 something that's incredibly important in, not

9 sustainability, but the regeneration of the

10 planet.

11 That's the obligation that we have. 

12 That's the obligation that I believe you have. 

13 And that's what we are asking you to do, is to

14 exclude hydroponics from the organic label, the

15 organic brand. Thank you. 

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Francis?

17 DR. THICKE: Could you tell us what

18 other organizations are on your letter that

19 you're talking about?

20 MR. BESANCON: Sure. There's 17 of

21 them. There's Amy's Kitchen, Nativa, Nature's

22 Path, Patagonia, Allison Organics, Dan Barber,
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1 Blue Hill, Stone Barn, Demeter, Dr. Bronner's,

2 Elemental Herbs, Frontier, you know, I could go

3 on. There's a bunch. And there would have been

4 a whole lot more if we would have had more time.

5 I could have put personally 20 more

6 on.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Dave.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: Michael, could you

9 give us an example of where a brand loses

10 integrity and sales drop. It's not an area of my

11 familiarity. Could you just give an example or

12 two of that?

13 MR. BESANCON: Well, one that's not

14 related but is sort of is Chipotle. What, they

15 had a 40 percent drop in share price over the

16 question of integrity in their operation. The

17 integrity and safety of their food that they

18 sell.

19 And that happens all over the place. 

20 If you lose your mission, then you, I could site

21 another one but I won't. It just changed hands

22 and it has a great deal to do with the integrity
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1 of the mission.

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Michael,

3 I have a question for you. Your letter mentioned

4 hydroponics. We're talking about a range of

5 operations here from aeroponics, hydroponics,

6 potting soils, soil. Where in that spectrum are

7 those 17 companies drawing the line?

8 MR. BESANCON: In the soil.

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: In the soil in the

10 ground?

11 MR. BESANCON: In the ground.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So they do not

13 support crop subcommittee proposal?

14 MR. BESANCON: You know, I've heard

15 other folks answer that question, and somebody

16 who has the knife that's cutting themselves in

17 half, can I borrow it?

18 The issue for me is that I would be,

19 my preference, and I believe the preference of

20 most of these folks, is that it be in the soil,

21 in the ground.

22 But I'm a realist. If we have to
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1 compromise, then we would accept the compromise

2 and that's what the letter says.

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank

4 you for your testimony. Up next we have Jeff

5 Moyer followed by Roger Noonan. Jeff, you can

6 start with your name and affiliation.

7 MR. MOYER: Certainly. Jeff Moyer,

8 Executive Director of the Rodale Institute, dairy

9 farmer, and past member of the NOSB.

10 Members of the NOSB, the NOP and all

11 those in attendance, thank you very much for your

12 commitment to the organic community and for

13 allowing me to have a few minutes of your time to

14 comment on the issue of hydroponics as a

15 certified organic production system.

16 I'll try to make my few points fairly

17 simple and straightforward. Organic is about

18 soil. Since the word organic was first linked to

19 agriculture it has always been about the soil. 

20 Why is healthy organic soil so important? I

21 challenge all you to Google search the word

22 ergothionein. It's the most powerful antioxidant
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1 known to man, only produced by soil fungus and a

2 few mushrooms.

3 Soil health is not only discussed in

4 organic circles, but now conventional farmers

5 have heard our message and are beginning to

6 listen to what we talk about. At the same time,

7 organic is beginning to talk about farming

8 without the soil. Seems a little ridiculous.

9 Now, I'm not a lawyer, nor was anyone

10 else on the NOSB who helped write the 2010

11 recommendation. But we were pretty clear that

12 the idea of growing terrestrial plants without

13 soil isn't organic. Now some folks are trying to

14 redefine the word hydroponic to make us believe

15 that what they're doing is container growing to

16 confuse the issue, I suppose so lawyers can fight

17 about it.

18 We saw the same pattern happen when I

19 was on the Board with Organic Dairies. Organic

20 is not about efficiency or reducing the amount of 

21 farmland used in production. A more efficient

22 way to raise dairy animals is to simply
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1 substitute organic feed for conventional feed,

2 fill the cow's stomach with inert materials like

3 is happening in the conventional world now using

4 spent substrate from hydroponic operations.

5 And there are more effective water use

6 systems in dairy production than managing cows on

7 pasture, yet organic dairy industry works

8 diligently to facilitate cows that act like cows

9 and express their natural habits of being social,

10 eating grass outdoors on green pastures. Yes,

11 even cows need to be connected to the soil.

12 Organic is not about a one-to-one

13 substitution. Many farmers new to organic ask

14 this simple question all the time. I can't spray

15 X so can I spray Y?

16 Always looking for that one-to-one

17 substitution of materials. And certifiers will

18 tell them over and over, it's not about

19 substitution of materials, it's about a systems

20 approach.

21 Now we want to say one-to-one

22 substitution of conventional nutrient soup for
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1 organically sourced materials is really organic. 

2 I can't believe it.

3 We needed lawyers to define pasture

4 even though school-age children could do it. Now

5 we are going to need lawyers to define

6 hydroponics and container growing, even soil.

7 When school children can do it without any

8 hesitation.

9 Hydroponics in any way you describe

10 it, is many things, but it is not organic. Thank

11 you.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Any questions? 

13 Steve, and then Dan and then Francis and we will

14 have to end it there.

15 MR. ELLIOTT: So could you describe in

16 your opinion the difference between carbon

17 sequestration and nutrient cycling between

18 container hydro, I won't define that for you, and

19 soil?

20 MR. MOYER: Well, clearly, I'm not the

21 person to stand here and give you the data on

22 that. We have a lot of data from our long-term
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1 farming systems trials along with data from other

2 long-term systems trials at the USDA at the

3 University of Wisconsin and Iowa State that all

4 support the claim that farming organically

5 sequesters carbon even when conventional systems

6 don't in those same soil types.

7 No till is not a solution for that. 

8 Even -- at Ohio State will tell you that no till

9 doesn't sequester more carbon. It maybe will

10 hold onto the carbon you have at the very best,

11 but it doesn't do anything to sequester

12 additional carbon.

13 When you are looking at hydroponics or

14 a container growing, if there is no soil in

15 there, you are not sequestering carbon. The

16 plant itself doesn't sequester carbon. It's the

17 complex interaction between the plant and the

18 microbiology in the soil that actually does the

19 sequestration. So no soil, no carbon

20 sequestration.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Dan?

22 DR. SEITZ: You mentioned an
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1 antioxidant that's found only in the soil and

2 presumably, the implication there is that the

3 food grown on that soil may also then absorb

4 that, in that someone eating that produce would

5 benefit from that. And I'm just wondering if you

6 have information on the comparative nutritional

7 content of hydroponics versus organically soil8 based grown produce.

9 MR. MOYER: I do not.

10 DR. SEITZ: And would you know whether

11 such information is available, or is this

12 something, an area that has not yet been

13 researched very extensively?

14 MR. MOYER: Clearly, I haven't done a

15 literature review on that topic so I would have

16 to say I don't know.

17 DR. SEITZ: Okay, no problem.

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. 

19 Francis.

20 DR. THICKE: Jeff, recently some of

21 the large scale hydroponic producers have been

22 saying that if they use some plant material as
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1 their substrate instead of fully inert, that

2 they're no longer hydroponic, even if they are

3 using 100 percent liquid feed, they are now

4 container growers.

5 You being on the 2010 Board, Chair of

6 that Board, is that in the spirit of that 2010

7 recommendation for hydroponics, that recommending

8 prohibition of hydroponics, is it clear to you? 

9 That if it's you're using 100 percent liquid feed

10 but you are in coconut coir for example, would

11 that have been considered to be hydroponic in the

12 2010 recommendation?

13 MR. MOYER: It would have been

14 considered hydroponic and it would not have been

15 considered organic. That's correct.

16 DR. THICKE: Thank you.

17 MR. MOYER: Yes, that's why I said,

18 even though a grade school kid can tell you what

19 soil is. Soil is soil. It is not coir mixed

20 with a little compost or a nutrient soup. That's

21 hydroponic anyway you define it. That's correct. 

22 Thank you.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next

2 is Roger Noonan following by Michael Brownback. 

3 Roger, if you could start with your name and

4 affiliation for the record.

5 MR. NOONAN: Thank you Mr. Chairman. 

6 Roger Noonan, Middle Branch Farm, New Boston, New

7 Hampshire, Permit No. 186 by the New Hampshire

8 Department of Agriculture Markets and Food, which

9 does not certify hydroponic operations.

10 I'm also the President of the New

11 England Farmers Union. I'm a Supervisor on my

12 local soil and water conservation district's

13 board, and I'm speaking today as an organic

14 farmer.

15 I'm involved in a lot of different

16 things in policy and I'll tell you, this issue is

17 probably the most confounding, the NOSB and the

18 NOP is probably the most confounding. I was

19 probably much happier person when I was just

20 paying attention to my own business on the farm.

21 I want to thank you all for your

22 service on this Board. I'd been asked to serve
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1 on the NOSB a few years ago and declined that

2 pleasure. And I don't envy the decisions you

3 have to make. So thank you all for your service.

4 First I want to address another issue. 

5 I would urge the NOSB to take the native eco

6 system proposal back. I'm from New Hampshire, a

7 state that was, now 89 percent forested but not

8 long ago was nearly completely deforested for

9 various agricultural reasons.

10 I'm in a area that's suburbanized now. 

11 I don't have many options. Buying new farmland

12 is not an option. We may have to clear some

13 land. I have two adult children involved in the

14 farming business, so I'd urge you to really take

15 a hard look at what native eco system means and

16 what that means to the viability and

17 sustainability of farms that are on that peri18 urban fringe.

19 Additionally, on the hydroponic issue,

20 I mean for me it starts with the soil. I'm not a

21 lawyer. I know more than I should and I just

22 can't read the Organic Foods Production Act,
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1 which I read twice after Miles sent out his

2 farewell email, and I just don't find the space

3 in there. And I understand the quandary. Once

4 you allow something, and it has sort of tacit

5 approval in this case, I'm not really sure how

6 it's existing now, but it's just not in the law. 

7 It's not in any of the preamble as others have

8 said. Two-thirds of my ground can be undercover

9 crop at any given time. And then it's undercover

10 crop, well as soon as we finish the Brussels

11 sprouts it will all be undercover crop here when

12 I get home.

13 How am I even competing on even

14 footing with a hydro unit, and this isn't about

15 size. It's about a set of rules that we all

16 agreed, voluntarily agreed to abide by. And the

17 small farmers, many of them that showed up for

18 this meeting, we don't have an army of attorneys

19 that we can send here and draft very impressive

20 comments for your consideration.

21 So I would just urge you to do the

22 right thing for the organic label which is the
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1 original sustainability label. Thank you very

2 much.

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. 

4 Questions? Thank you. Up next we have Michael

5 Brownback followed by Jen Berkebile. Michael, if

6 you could start with your name and affiliation.

7 MR. BROWNBACK: Good afternoon. I'm

8 Mike Brownback. Along with my wife and family we

9 farm Spiral Path Farm in Pennsylvania. We are

10 currently certified by Pennsylvania Certified

11 Organic and have been since its beginning in

12 1997.

13 I guess everybody's getting a little

14 winded hearing the same thing, but one thing that

15 I want to talk about. I was around, this is my

16 second time commenting to the NOSB and the first

17 time was at the proposed rule back when it was

18 the Big Three, you know, the sludge, the

19 irradiation and the GMO's. And we've come a long

20 way from then and congratulations everybody.

21 But I'll tell you one thing. Back

22 then, one of the rationalizations was that we
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1 were going to have reciprocity internationally. 

2 And that IFOAM accreditation was going to be

3 something that we'd all have. And I don't

4 understand why the United States is a dumping

5 ground of the world for hydroponics? What's

6 going on here? This is something that's very

7 confusing to me.

8 As far as following plans for soil

9 improvement, we've taken a farm that was run down

10 that we purchased in 1977 with 1.7 percent

11 organic matter. It's now well over 5 percent. 

12 You know, raising organic matter, that is carbon

13 sequestration. I only have a ninth grade

14 education as far as my biology goes, but

15 basically the simple sugars that come from

16 photosynthesis, they go into the soil, the

17 excess.

18 How can they go into the soil if it's

19 protected by a layer of a container of a raised

20 bed or whatever term we want to use? I don't get

21 it. I'm somewhat confused. Where is our

22 integrity? What do we have for anatomy as a
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1 people if we are willing to turn a blind eye to

2 the facts of life?

3 We've had many people here eloquently

4 state what is true and what is simple a child can

5 understand. What do we need to do? I don't see

6 anybody in this room that is opposed to

7 hydroponics that is going away. Are any of you

8 guys going away? I don't think so. We're here

9 for the long haul. I do not question the

10 integrity of the NOSB. I question the

11 interaction between the NOSB, the NOP and the

12 USDA. And I have to say also that the USDA has

13 done wonderful things for me as a farmer with

14 conservation help and areas like that, that I

15 think is very laudable, that has been done over

16 the years, and I think we need to continue that

17 and maintain the integrity of what we do. Thank

18 you. 

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Michael.

20 Dave, Emily, and we'll have to stop it

21 there.

22 MR. MORTENSEN: Mike, could you give
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1 us a sense for the scale, the number of people

2 you're feeding off of Spiral Path Farm, just for

3 the record?

4 MR. BROWNBACK: Yes. Spiral Path Farm

5 currently is about 250 acres. We have about 80

6 acres in certified organic produce that we grow. 

7 We feed at least 3,000 or 4,000 people in our

8 CSA. We have in the vicinity of 2,000 members. 

9 But we also sell to a major retailer.

10 We would easily provide produce for

11 20,000 people. Easily.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: Thank you.

13 Emily.

14 MS. OAKLEY: So this question: would

15 you support for crops the pending motion on

16 containers or would you prefer to see soil,

17 growing in the ground only?

18 MR. BROWNBACK: I'm going to look you

19 all in the eye and say you all know what's right. 

20 I believe there is time for compromise. But

21 there's time that I have to be true to Mother

22 Earth. And a terrestrial plant that's evolved
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1 over eons of time with its roots in the soil, I'm

2 going to vote for modifying that? I can't. I

3 cannot support that. I am for the soil.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you

5 for your testimony.

6 Up next is Jen Berkebile followed by

7 Alan Lewis. Jen, if you can start with your name

8 and affiliation, and correct your last name if I

9 tortured it. Sorry.

10 MS. BERKEBILE: Good afternoon. My

11 name is Jennifer Berkebile. I am Materials

12 Program Manager at Pennsylvania Certified

13 Organic. PCO certifies over 1,300 operations.

14 I wanted to begin my comments by

15 thanking the members of the Board for all of

16 their time and effort. Today I will be

17 commenting on petitions and sunset materials, as

18 well as the livestock proposal clarifying

19 emergency for use of synthetic parasiticides in

20 organic livestock production.

21 I would like to first comment on

22 oxytocin which is up for sunset and which the
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1 Livestock Subcommittee has voted to remove from

2 the National List. PCO is not taking a position

3 on whether oxytocin should remain on the National

4 List. However, I did want to comment that we

5 have approximately 100 operations that list an

6 oxytocin production on their materials used form,

7 and some have expressed concern to me about the

8 possibility of this material being removed from

9 the National List .

10 I can't speak for all of these

11 producers, but it's my general understanding that

12 the majority do not use it often or maybe even

13 once a year but, rather, they just like to have

14 it available for very rare situations such as

15 collapsed uterus or other medical emergencies.

16 I would like to briefly comment on the

17 petition for elemental sulfur for use as an

18 external parasiticide pesticide for organic

19 livestock. Again, PCO is not taking a position

20 on whether elemental sulfur should be added to

21 the National List. However, PCO has received

22 requests from over 100 producers to review and
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1 allow elemental sulfur for this use.

2 Finally, I wanted to reiterate our

3 written comments on the proposal clarifying

4 emergency use of synthetic parasiticides in

5 organic livestock production. PCO appreciates

6 the work of the subcommittee to flesh out the

7 acceptable use of synthetic parasiticides in

8 organic livestock production, however, the

9 structure and language in this proposal lack

10 clarity. It is unclear whether paragraphs 1

11 through 4 are optional or mandatory. If they are

12 mandatory it is unclear whether all are mandatory

13 prior to the use of a synthetic parasiticide or

14 whether one is sufficient.

15 I will refer the subcommittee to my

16 written comments to view some suggested edits to

17 the proposed language.

18 Thank you for your time and for the

19 opportunity to comment.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet then Emily.

21 MS. BEHAR: With regard to the

22 oxytocin, do you think that your producers could
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1 have an opportunity to learn some of the natural

2 materials because there's many -- there are

3 alternatives out there? And the larger milk

4 buyers have said that they do not support

5 relisting.

6 So I understand wanting to have a

7 material on the National List, but part of our

8 criteria is that if there is a natural

9 alternative and we should be looking at not

10 approving a synthetic.

11 MS. BERKEBILE: Right. And we do,

12 again, have about 100 producers with it on their

13 materials use form. But I would say maybe we

14 have 500 organic operations in total that have

15 cows. So, you know, only on 100 out of 500. So

16 presumably some of our producers have found some

17 other working alternative.

18 So I do assume that maybe the ones

19 that are using it could find alternatives if they

20 are out there.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Emily.

22 MS. OAKLEY: I wanted to ask you about
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1 Vitamin B1. You said that you weren't taking a

2 position on any of those materials but listed

3 that there were six products that contained a

4 blend of C, E, and B1.

5 MS. BERKEBILE: Uh-huh.

6 MS. OAKLEY: So I know that's your

7 position, but I just wanted to ask, given the

8 fact that the technical review was very clear

9 that B1 is not effective for that use would you

10 see it as a limitation if we did remove it from

11 the list?

12 MS. BERKEBILE: I don't know that I

13 would see it as a limitation. But, again, I'm

14 not an expert in the efficacy of that at all. 

15 And that's only a handful of products. So I

16 really think if it was removed it might not have

17 a great impact.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: A-dae.

19 MS. BRIONES: So you mentioned that

20 you have producers who are encouraging the

21 listing of elemental sulfur. Can you just give

22 me a sense of how many producers you represent?
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1 MS. BERKEBILE: Yes. I think about

2 100 producers I would say would like to have that

3 listed for that use.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

5 Thank you. Up next is Alan Lewis

6 followed by Howard Prussack. Alan, you can start

7 with your name and affiliation.

8 MR. LEWIS: Alan Lewis from Natural

9 Grocers.

10 Hello, NOSB. This is my eighth

11 comment on hydroponics. I'm sure, Francis, you

12 won't miss the ninth.

13 Natural Grocers, 42 -- 62 years old,

14 family run, 142 stores in 19 states. We are one

15 of the pioneer companies that set our own

16 standards in the '50s, '60s, and '70s. Did our

17 own inspections when we had to, and were very

18 happy when the certifiers at the state level came

19 onto the scene.

20 We are very much focused on education. 

21 In fact, we consider ourselves an education

22 company. We have educated four generations of
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1 our customers. We are also known for being

2 organic plus because in very many instances the

3 organic standard is not enough for our customers. 

4 That includes free range, open range eggs,

5 pastured eggs. It means pasture-based dairy. It

6 means grass-fed beef, lamb, and bison.

7 We educate our customers on those

8 issues and we create a market for those standards

9 and work with the vendors to meet those standards

10 based on just shorthand, regeneration, added

11 nutrition, economic opportunity, rural

12 development, climate change, reduction of

13 pesticides, renewable certifiers, and a synthetic

14 load of chemicals in our bodies and environment.

15 So our customers come to expect

16 transparency in everything that we do. And they

17 come to expect continual improvement. So imagine

18 our surprise in the last month and few years that

19 a group of certifiers and certified organic

20 operations are putting hydroponic produce

21 unlabeled and unannounced into the marketplace.

22 And imagine our customers' surprise
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1 when we have to put up labels saying "organic,

2 just kidding, also hydroponic" because all of

3 those things that we teach as values and as

4 science and as critical attributes of good

5 agriculture and healthy nutrition are suddenly

6 suspect.

7 Secondly, imagine our surprise when we

8 try to go out and find berries and cucumbers and

9 peppers and they're no longer available because

10 the hydroponic industry has largely captured that

11 market, taken the price premium, but left the

12 dirt-in-the-ground organic growers high and dry.

13 So please consider the millions of

14 customers, the vanguard of organic demand that we

15 and retailers like Mom's Market and PCC and

16 others have developed over the last several

17 decades. If we don't move on this issue and put

18 hydroponic where it is, then Natural Grocers will

19 again continue down the road of organic plus.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Alan.

22 Dan.
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1 DR. SEITZ: Could you elaborate a

2 little bit more on the point you just made about

3 the difficulty of finding peppers and tomatoes,

4 or whatever the produce you've mentioned, grown

5 by soil-based farms; are you saying that the

6 hydroponic operations to some degree are driving

7 out certain types of produce because of a price

8 differential? Or can you just unpack that a

9 little bit and explain the nature of the

10 economics at work there?

11 MR. LEWIS: Thank you, Dan.

12 First of all, it has to be particular

13 to regions and seasons. But what hydroponic

14 operations, as other people have mentioned, what

15 they offer is continual harvest 12 months out of

16 the year at a lower cost. And so the seasonal

17 harvesters, say in Colorado or other places, --

18 I'm most familiar with Colorado at this point --

19 you get in a train wreck with the distributors

20 and the supply chain. Because if someone has a

21 contract for delivering identical, blemish-free

22 hydroponic vegetables week after week after week,
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1 then the guy with dirt on his boots, developing

2 the soil, making his family's -- making ends meet

3 for his family might knock on our door and say,

4 "I've got cukes, I've got berries, I've got some

5 peppers for you," but there's no -- that becomes

6 a disruption and a problem.

7 And his prices, or her prices, are

8 typically higher than the hydroponic prices.

9 Does that help you figure this out?

10 DR. SEITZ: Yes. Thank you.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

12 Sue.

13 MS. BAIRD: Yes. Thank you for

14 developing the market, Alan. I wanted to follow

15 up with that because, you're right, seasonally,

16 at least in Missouri it's pretty hard to grow

17 tomatoes and peppers in the wintertime.

18 So, that being said, I hate this me or

19 thee thing. Would you be -- would you endorse a

20 label that would say hydroponic organics, or

21 whatever we would call it, so that there is clear

22 transparency?
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1 MR. LEWIS: Yeah. I think that is the

2 proper direction. As I said, if you have a

3 clean, as regenerative as possible, nutritious

4 hydroponic operation, preferably closer to an

5 urban center, then that should be USDA process

6 verified operation. And then we can backtrack

7 and reestablish our education for our customers

8 to maintain that transparency and that continual

9 improvement.

10 Because where you're headed is

11 otherwise I get organic, dirt-grown tomatoes

12 from, who knows, New Zealand, you know, all

13 winter long. And that's another problem.

14 MS. BAIRD: Thank you.

15 MR. LEWIS: You're welcome.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Albert -- sorry, Ashley

17 and then Steve.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: So a little bit more on

19 that label compromise. I think what we're saying

20 here is it wouldn't be USDA process verified, it

21 would be that -- some of us would say that -- it

22 would be this logo and say hydroponically grown
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1 or something like that. Would you support that?

2 MR. LEWIS: No.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Steve.

4 MR. ELA: So I'm a grower and not a --

5 well, I guess I am a marketer in some ways, but

6 you see many more people. And we've heard

7 testimony and received comments that consumers

8 are looking for more organic produce, you know,

9 this is a market increase.

10 But what I heard you say, and correct

11 me if I'm wrong, please, is that your consumers

12 and your stores want soil-grown, but there is a

13 difference. And so could you elucidate a little

14 more on consumer preference because that's

15 something that's come up a number of times and I

16 think it's a little cloudy as to how that falls?

17 MR. LEWIS: So part of the background

18 that I left out is we only sell organic produce. 

19 So, you know, just focusing again on Colorado,

20 which you're familiar with, 3- or 4-month

21 harvest. For you with stone fruit, a 3-week

22 harvest. I don't know what you do the rest of
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1 the year.

2 PARTICIPANT: Take vacation.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. LEWIS: Florida.

5 So these value, these subjective value

6 issues about family farms, biodiversity,

7 environment, fossil fuels, carbon sequestration,

8 animal and human welfare, all of those roll up

9 and largely get resolved on the biodiverse

10 organic family farms that are represented by many

11 of the farmers on the NOSB now and in the room.

12 That's what our core customer is. 

13 Now, that's a million people out of 350-some

14 million consumers, but it's also a lot of

15 households. And that's concentrated in these

16 areas where we have our stores. So it is a

17 holistic view of health in life a new generation,

18 and that generation, that generational view seven

19 generations down, as Ms. Stokie might say.

20 So that it is a safe, blemish-free 52-

21 week-a-year production system is largely

22 irrelevant to the core values and the core
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1 science that our customers understand.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Alan.

3 MR. LEWIS: Thank you.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: We're going to move on

5 at this time. Up next is Howard, followed by

6 Paul Harlow.

7 Howard, if you can start with your

8 name and affiliation for the record.

9 MR. PRUSSACK: Yes. My name is Howard

10 Prussack. I represent my own farm, High Meadows

11 Farm in Westminster, Vermont. And thank you to

12 the Board for allowing me to speak. It's hard

13 work doing what you're doing. I respect it.

14 I started farming in 1971 as an

15 organic farmer. I don't know if there's very

16 many more people in this room who might have a

17 older legacy than I have. And what that means

18 is, yeah, I've been doing it for a long time and

19 it's given me a perspective. I've watched this

20 industry grow. It wasn't an industry when I

21 started. Nobody organic. We had like one or two

22 books that even gave us any guidance, and we
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1 really had to struggle and fight and define the

2 information that we needed to perfect it and go

3 forward. And sometimes we failed.

4 And it was tough going for many years. 

5 It was a small niche. Now it seems it's an

6 international industry that's huge, and it's the

7 fastest growing component in the agricultural and

8 food grocery stores. And all of a sudden

9 everybody wants to be organic.

10 I've earned a certain credibility from

11 my time doing this -- 40-plus years -- the trust

12 and respect of people in my farming community

13 and, most importantly, my customers who have come

14 to depend and count on what I do and my other

15 compatriots in the industry who are small organic

16 farmers.

17 I'm not going to violate that trust

18 and that respect that they've given me. When

19 they buy food from me, when people buy organic

20 food they expect it, they assume it's grown in

21 soil. That's what they think. You know, no

22 sleight of hand should be done that would erode
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1 that trust.

2 I'm not against hydroponics. They

3 really need their own label. I don't want to see

4 a compromise saying organic hydroponic as that's

5 going to muddy the water and confuse customers. 

6 We've built a brand, as somebody's mentioned

7 earlier, and I don't want to violate that trust. 

8 All the hard-working men and women and families

9 that put their lives and their blood into this

10 industry should not be disregarded.

11 The people, our customers, respect

12 that. They know that. We've created a legacy. 

13 And as we move forward into the future that's

14 really all I'm working for is to leave a legacy

15 that people could live by of organic farming is

16 people growing crops in the soil that's going to

17 leave the Earth better than when we got here. 

18 And that's, that's the charge that we're faced

19 with, leaving the Earth in a better place, not a

20 worse place.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley, Sue, then Emily.
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1 MS. SWAFFAR: So you do tomatoes in a

2 greenhouse; is that correct?

3 MR. PRUSSACK: I do tomatoes in a

4 greenhouse in soil.

5 MS. SWAFFAR: Can you tell me your

6 crop rotation? How do you -- what do you do

7 there?

8 MR. PRUSSACK: It's Vermont so I don't

9 grow year-round. We're a seasonal farm. It's we

10 grow the tomatoes when they're planted in the

11 ground in April. We just finished harvesting

12 last week. It's an unusually long harvest season

13 for us that's great. We clean up the greenhouse. 

14 We apply compost early, early spring and till it

15 in and plant tomatoes.

16 So that's it. There's no other crop

17 that's grown in those tomato greenhouses, it's

18 just tomatoes. It's one greenhouse.

19 I have other greenhouses that we grow

20 in the soil raspberries and a few other minor

21 crops. But mostly we're an outdoor production

22 soil farm.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Sue.

2 MS. BAIRD: Yes. I really am amazed

3 at the volume of production that you're doing. 

4 Can you tell me what your soil fertility inputs

5 are that you use? I know that you mentioned

6 compost but you've got -- what are you using?

7 MR. PRUSSACK: We do, it's a -- Well,

8 in the field or in the greenhouse? What are you

9 referring to?

10 MS. BAIRD: Both.

11 MR. PRUSSACK: Well, in the field we

12 do extensive green manure crops. Some of the

13 green manure we leave for a year or two years. 

14 And sweet clover, peas and oats. We do apply

15 compost and pelletized chicken manure that we get

16 from New York State.

17 MS. BAIRD: And in the greenhouse?

18 MR. PRUSSACK: Well, the greenhouse,

19 as I said, we just, the tomato house is only a

20 tomato house. That's all we grow. And we just

21 apply compost.

22 MS. BAIRD: Do you see a difference in
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1 chicken manure that is composted just on the

2 ground, or maybe not, raw? A lot of people use

3 just raw chicken manure? Do you see, would you

4 see a difference -- and you don't I'm sure on

5 your vegetables -- but in grain crops they do. 

6 Would you see a difference in that versus putting

7 it in a solution and liquefying it and spraying? 

8 Because I see that as well in organic field

9 crops.

10 MR. PRUSSACK: I don't use liquefied

11 manure. I'm not sure of the question. Would I

12 see a difference? I suppose I would.

13 I've been using the same system for

14 many years. It grows a really tasty tomato. I

15 don't think I'm going to change. Tomatoes are

16 just one of the crops we do. But it's a key

17 crop. People, people love it. We've got a good

18 reputation for what we grow.

19 MS. BAIRD: Thank you.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

21 Emily.

22 MS. OAKLEY: Same question, do you
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1 support the CS compromise motion on containers or

2 would you prefer to see it in the soil in the

3 ground?

4 MR. PRUSSACK: I didn't quite hear

5 that. I'm sorry.

6 MS. OAKLEY: Sorry. Would you prefer

7 to see it in the soil in the ground or would you

8 support the CS compromise motion on containers?

9 MR. PRUSSACK: I'm a ground-based, I'm

10 a soil-based farmer. Container growing is

11 container growing. It's, you know, apples and

12 oranges. It's a different, totally different

13 thing.

14 When people buy a tomato they expect

15 it to be grown in soil. If it's not it should,

16 it should say that. You know, they can have

17 their own.

18 We have our story, a hard, you know,

19 won, fought story. It's a great story, you know,

20 the story of small organic farmers all across

21 this country. They should develop their own

22 story.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

2 MR. PRUSSACK: You know, whatever it

3 is.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

5 MR. PRUSSACK: All right. Thank you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Paul Harlow

7 followed by Michael Collins.

8 Just so you guys know, it's just after

9 6:00 o'clock now. We have ten more commenters. 

10 So we are looking to track till about 7:00

11 o'clock at night. I know the agenda said it was

12 6:15, but given the questions we've had we will

13 go until we have completed the list.

14 Paul, you can start with your name and

15 affiliation.

16 MR. HARLOW: Right. I'm Paul Harlow. 

17 I'm a 300-acre certified organic farmer in

18 Westminster, Vermont. I'd like to speak against

19 hydroponics as a certified organic.

20 I'd like to make my comments as in the

21 avenue of the history of my farm. My grandfather

22 started the farm in 1917, so that's 100 years
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1 ago. He was a -- milked a few cows, grew some

2 vegetables. He was basically an organic farmer.

3 My father took over in 1950; followed

4 the same regimen. Although, as farmers did after

5 World War II, we started using some chemicals,

6 mostly herbicides I believe. He sold his cows in

7 1965. And he and I grew vegetables for about 10

8 years together to pay the taxes and keep the farm

9 alive somewhat.

10 And at that time I was doing things

11 that I had learned through the Extension Service: 

12 applied 10-10-10, spray atrazine, and certain

13 chemicals that, you know, reduced the weed

14 pressure.

15 I took over in 1974. And I started to

16 see things that were troubling to me. The wind

17 blew the dirt more than I remembered. I couldn't

18 find worms that I had as a kid when my father

19 would plow. I started seeing weeds that we

20 couldn't control. Nutgrass, it seemed like no

21 matter how much atrazine or whatever chemical we

22 applied that nutgrass seemed to thrive.
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1 So, surprisingly to me, at sort of a

2 young age I realized that I was the caretaker of

3 this land for future generations and that it was

4 very important that if this land was going to

5 survive I had to change what I was going to do. 

6 It was important to me that this land needed some

7 more attention, and I was not doing the right

8 thing.

9 That's when I started looking into

10 organic. Actually Howard, the previous witness,

11 was in my town and I got some information from

12 him. I did a lot of reading, a lot of trial by

13 error. It took me 10 years to become certified.

14 I remember picking sweet corn out

15 there when there were so many weeds I questioned

16 what I was doing. But I persevered. And now I

17 have about 300 acres from that 30 or 40 acres. 

18 And we use a lot of cover crops. My farm is a

19 very thriving farm. I believe that I did the

20 right thing. Our land is just, it's productive,

21 it's doing the right thing.

22 And I guess I'd like to end by
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1 thinking of a comment that a UVM agronomist of

2 years ago, he would say, I would argue that what

3 I was doing for those 10 or 15 years is similar

4 to what hydroponic growers are growing, that I

5 was just throwing stuff into the soil that was

6 not doing anything for that long-term life of

7 that soil, and that I was not promoting the long8 term fertility and life that I needed to do to

9 make sure that my soil was good for the rest of 

10 eons I guess.

11 Thank you.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Questions? Ashley.

13 MS. SWAFFAR: Do you grow tomatoes in

14 a greenhouse?

15 MR. HARLOW: I do not.

16 MS. SWAFFAR: You don't?

17 MR. HARLOW: I'm just an outside

18 grower, yes.

19 MS. SWAFFAR: Organic integrity.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Emily.

21 MS. OAKLEY: Okay. Sorry for

22 continuing to ask the same question.
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1 MR. HARLOW: Sure.

2 MS. OAKLEY: But would you support

3 the CS motion on containers with the compromise

4 that we came up with or would you prefer in the

5 soil in the ground.

6 MR. HARLOW: Totally soil in the

7 ground.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

9 We'll have to move on now. Up next is

10 Michael Collins followed by Jim Riddle on deck.

11 And, Michael, if you can start with

12 your name and affiliation.

13 MR. COLLINS: I'm Michael Collins from

14 the Old Athens Farm in Westminster, Vermont.

15 I've been farming organically since

16 1989. I sell locally in Southern Vermont and am

17 known primarily for my tomatoes. I'm asked

18 weekly at farmers' market if my tomatoes are

19 organic. They are.

20 Too often the next question is, Are

21 they hydroponic? For close to 30 years I've

22 answered that no, that would be an oxymoron.
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1 When I started farming the organic

2 standards were set locally. Every year a group

3 of farmers would get together and vote on the

4 standards. These people's motivations ranged

5 widely, and the standards we passed reflected our

6 disparate priorities, whether they concerned

7 which chemicals we would be permitted to use, the

8 health of our soil, our environmental footprint,

9 or the treatment of our animals.

10 We also worked hard to educate our

11 customers and improve the value of the organic

12 brand, which we did successfully. As the share

13 of organic food in the marketplace increased, so

14 did the corporate and governmental interest. 

15 Control of the organic label was given to the

16 federal government on the pretext that a uniform

17 standard would benefit consumers and farmers by

18 using interstate and international trade, and

19 ensuring that all states maintain the same high

20 standards.

21 Many of us feared at that time the

22 opposite outcome. In New England the vast
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1 majority of organic farmers believe that soil is

2 an integral part of the organic agriculture. 

3 Mislabeling hydroponic produce as organic is at

4 best confusing our customers. It would be a

5 watering down of the label we worked so hard to

6 create.

7 Thank you.

8 If you don't want to ask any questions

9 I'll get out of here faster anyway.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley.

12 MS. SWAFFAR: Do you grow tomatoes in

13 a greenhouse?

14 MR. COLLINS: Yes, I do.

15 MS. SWAFFAR: Can you tell me your

16 crop rotation?

17 MR. COLLINS: You're kind of fixated

18 on a crop rotation, which I'm thinking is

19 demonstrating a little lack of understanding of

20 process of growing tomatoes in a greenhouse. 

21 There is no crop rotation in that case. And, and

22 we fertilize and give the crops what they need. 
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1 Everything is cleaned out at the end of the year

2 so that pests can go away.

3 We bring compost in, more compost than

4 most people can imagine. We're fertilizing

5 primarily with alfalfa meal and wheat bran. I

6 don't know why I use wheat bran. Just some old

7 Japanese guy told me it was good.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave and Emily, and

9 we'll stop there.

10 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, I just was

11 curious. Could you, could you just tell us a

12 little bit more about the fertility program, and

13 then once you plant the tomatoes in the house are

14 you, are you dripping a nutrient solution into

15 the house?

16 MR. COLLINS: No. The way it's

17 working is our plants are in the soil. And the

18 soil is covered with actually nutrient film

19 plastic. It's kind of ironic just because it's

20 heavy duty but which keeps the moisture in the

21 soil beds. And if the roots are strong enough

22 and the plants are healthy enough those roots
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1 will grow right up onto the surface of the soil.

2 And we can fertilize with, you know,

3 hard fertilizer, alfalfa being one of my

4 favorite. We can use blood meal if we're getting

5 low on, we'll use something a little bit quicker. 

6 And we also need to add potash in the form of

7 sulfated potash.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: Thanks.

9 MR. COLLINS: But that's all, that's

10 all not liquidly added.

11 MR. BRADMAN: Tom, can I ask one more

12 question?

13 MR. CHAPMAN: We had Emily and then

14 you.

15 MR. BRADMAN: Oh, okay. But you're

16 not closing it down?

17 MR. CHAPMAN: I am. Emily.

18 MS. OAKLEY: I just want to ask the

19 same question about container compromise which I

20 will just also preface we would anticipate to

21 include some composts and/or soil in it versus in

22 the ground only with no containers. What's your
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1 preference?

2 MR. COLLINS: Well, my preference is

3 in the soil. And it's just a simpler option.

4 I mean, if you're asking what my

5 preference is it's just straightforward. And

6 it's also much easier to grow something in soil

7 because the soil is doing its job. I mean it's

8 difficult enough as it is being ahead of the

9 nutrient curve in a way. But I really can't

10 imagine doing it in a container.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Michael.

12 Asa.

13 MR. BRADMAN: I probably should have

14 been asking this of more people, but in terms of

15 outside inputs like compost, and you mentioned

16 alfalfa, I'm curious what different products do

17 you truck or bring into the farm? And do you

18 have an idea of what percentage of fertility? 

19 Kind of maybe off site we can talk more about

20 that but.

21 MR. COLLINS: It would be really hard

22 for me to tell you the percentage of off site
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1 fertility exactly. But I'm buying mostly alfalfa

2 meal; that's off site. And if we use blood meal,

3 that's definitely off site.

4 We were talking about that earlier,

5 that's generally not coming from organic

6 production. The, especially the blood meal. You

7 know, back in the old days we used to use fish

8 meal but after mad cow the price of that went out

9 the, out the roof.

10 MR. BRADMAN: Right. Right.

11 But you are trucking in, it sounds

12 like, a number of inputs from off the farm onto

13 the land?

14 MR. COLLINS: Yes. We need to truck

15 inputs from off the farm.

16 MR. BRADMAN: And your production is

17 dependent on that?

18 MR. COLLINS: That's an interesting

19 question. I mean I -- the question, could I get

20 around it with the greenhouse tomatoes? Probably

21 not.

22 With my outdoor production and with my
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1 greenhouse greens? Yes, I could, just because of

2 the different timing of the nutrient needs.

3 MR. BRADMAN: Right. Thanks.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

5 Up next we have Jim Riddle followed by

6 Charlotte Vallaeys.

7 Jim, if you can start with your name

8 and affiliation for the record.

9 MR. RIDDLE: Jim Riddle, Blue Fruit

10 Farm, Winona, Minnesota. I also chair the

11 Minnesota Department of Ag's Organic Advisory

12 Board, as well as the Steering Committee of the

13 Organic Farmers' Association, which is unique in

14 that only certified organic farmers vote on our

15 policies and leadership.

16 And we do have some policy positions

17 from OFA that are being passed out. And the OFA

18 members did vote in support of the Crop

19 Subcommittee's recommendation on hydroponic.

20 I'd like to offer comments on my own. 

21 And beginning by saying that the labeling of

22 hydroponic products as organic is illegal. OFPA
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1 6513(b)(1) states "an organic plan shall contain

2 provisions to foster soil fertility." It "shall"

3 not just it "should."

4 And it goes on to say, 6513(g), "an

5 organic plan shall not include any production or

6 handling practices that are inconsistent with

7 this chapter." Soil-less production systems are

8 inconsistent with OFPA. And they do not comply

9 with numerous provisions of the regulation which

10 have been enumerated by the Crops Subcommittee in

11 your recommendation.

12 But you missed one. And that is in

13 205.601(j)(6) the listing of micronutrients has a

14 very important annotation. And that says that

15 "soil deficiency must be documented by testing." 

16 Now, that doesn't mean the deficiency of soil. 

17 That links soil to the use of micronutrients that

18 it must be documented by testing deficiency of

19 those micronutrients.

20 It also doesn't comply with the NOSB's

21 own principles of organic production and

22 handling. The first sentence reads, "Organic
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1 agriculture is an ecological production

2 management system and promotes and enhances

3 biodiversity, biological cycles, and soil

4 biological activity."

5 I served on the NOSB from 2001 to

6 2006. During that time we adopted

7 recommendations on organic greenhouse operations.

8 And it was proposed that we address hydroponics. 

9 And I and other members of the Board at that time

10 felt that it was so far outside the scope of the

11 law that we didn't address it. We had other

12 priorities, as you have lots of other things on

13 your table as well.

14 I'm sorry that we didn't. I'm sorry

15 that we did not nip it in the bud. And there are

16 companies that have made bad business decisions,

17 and consumers are being deceived, and bona fide

18 organic farmers are facing unfair competition

19 from this sector. So I urge you to prohibit

20 hydroponic products in your recommendation since

21 it's already prohibited in the law. And this

22 discussion of having a label attached to the word
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1 "organic," you can't even consider that. There

2 couldn't be transitional organic --

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jim.

4 MR. RIDDLE: -- even though transition

5 is part of the process, but there couldn't be a

6 label for that.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Jim.

8 MR. RIDDLE: Thank you.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Questions?

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Jim, I have a question. 

11 So your term of service was from 2001 to 2005;

12 did I get that right?

13 MR. RIDDLE: Six.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Six.

15 MR. RIDDLE: Six.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: 2002 to 2006?

17 MR. RIDDLE: No. Five years.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: 2001 to 2006. My math

19 is not so great today.

20 Did you read the proposal in its

21 entirety? There's a history section at the very

22 beginning.
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1 MR. RIDDLE: Right.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: And you, you just stated

3 that you did not resolve it at the time because

4 you thought it was so far outside the standards

5 it couldn't possibly be considered organic, and

6 yet at the same time repeatedly during that time

7 frame the organic program was telling the NOSB,

8 as documented in the transcripts, that they

9 considered hydroponics under organics.

10 So if it was so clear at that time,

11 why did NOSB not take the action that you're

12 advising us to take at this time?

13 MR. RIDDLE: Yeah. Well, if you

14 recall, and maybe you weren't there, but the

15 program at that time also issued four directives

16 that had to be retracted because they were done

17 without consultation of the Board. That was

18 another one, it wasn't retracted, but it was done

19 with no consultation of the NOSB. So we didn't

20 have a say in that. Yes, the program took that

21 position but the Board was not consulted.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: I hear that. But can
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1 you point to meetings that occurred where you

2 guys directly objected to it or raised concerns?

3 MR. RIDDLE: No, I cannot point to. 

4 There were, transcripts were started during about

5 the middle of my term. There was a very foggy

6 record for some of those early ones. But I do

7 recall that the Crops Committee in addressing

8 greenhouses, and one of our members Owusu

9 Bandele, brought forward shouldn't we include

10 hydroponic in this. And we said no. Focus on

11 what's really happening organically, which is

12 greenhouse production standards.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Yeah. This transcript's

14 from 2002, 2004, 2005, and 2006.

15 MR. RIDDLE: They began in 2002.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: There was one in 2002.

17 MR. RIDDLE: Yes.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: There was an out year in

19 2003 but those were minutes.

20 MR. RIDDLE: That's when they first

21 started.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes.
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1 Any other questions?

2 (No response.)

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Jim, thank you for your 

4 thoughts.

5 MR. RIDDLE: Thank you. And thanks

6 for your service, all of you. It's a hard job. 

7 I really respect and appreciate what you do.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Charlotte, you're up

9 next, with Emily Musgrave on deck.

10 MS. VALLAEYS: Good evening. My name

11 is Charlotte Vallaeys and I'm a Senior Policy

12 Analyst with "Consumer Reports."

13 "Consumer Reports" is an independent,

14 non-profit organization. We work side-by-side

15 with consumers to create a fairer, safer, and

16 healthier world. We work in many areas,

17 including efforts to create a safe and

18 sustainable food system. In many ways the

19 organic food system aligns with our vision of a

20 better food system. And we believe the integrity

21 of the organic label is worth protecting and,

22 where warranted, a standard should be improved.
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1 There are several votes scheduled at

2 this meeting that could improve the organic

3 standards and ensure they meet consumer

4 expectations. Sodium phosphate, an artificial

5 ingredient, should be removed from the National

6 List.

7 Our 2015 Consumer Survey found that

8 avoiding artificial ingredients is an important

9 objective for 79 percent of consumers. And this

10 is especially important for consumers when they

11 purchase foods labeled organic, with 86 percent

12 saying that they expect organic foods to be free

13 from artificial ingredients.

14 A high intake of phosphorus is

15 associated with negative impact on bone, kidney,

16 and heart health. Also, the prohibition of

17 sodium phosphate in other standards, including

18 the EU and Japan, shows that it fails to meet the

19 essentiality criterion in OFPA.

20 And our 2016 Consumer Survey showed

21 that 70 percent of consumers think that the USDA

22 should not permit the use of non-organic
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1 ingredients if they are not deemed essential.

2 We strongly support the proposal to

3 include cisgenesis, intergenesis, and

4 agroinfiltration in the terminology for excluded

5 methods, and to exempt the techniques of marker6 assisted selection and transduction. And we

7 think transposons should be on the excluded

8 methods list as well.

9 We support the Livestock

10 Subcommittee's proposal to remove oxytocin from

11 the National List. In our 2015 survey we found

12 that 82 percent of consumers think that the

13 federal organic standards should prohibit the use

14 of antibiotics and other drugs.

15 For this reason also, and because we

16 think that eliminating the routine use of

17 antibiotics in animal agriculture is a critical

18 step in protecting the effectiveness of

19 antibiotics for public health, we strongly urge

20 the NOSB's Livestock Subcommittee to begin work

21 on developing a recommendation prohibiting all

22 antibiotic use in organic poultry production.
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1 And finally, last but not least, we

2 are not opposed to hydroponic production, but we

3 are opposed to products of hydroponic systems

4 being labeled as organic and using that seal when

5 those crops can be grown in soil. So we urge the

6 NOSB to support the Crops Subcommittee proposal

7 on hydroponics and container growing.

8 Thank you for considering our

9 comments. And thank you for your work.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

11 MS. BEHAR: Have you done any consumer

12 research on how consumers feel about hydroponics

13 as far as having the organic label? Has there

14 been any research on that?

15 MS. VALLAEYS: No, we haven't done a

16 consumer survey in the last year. So we haven't

17 asked that question specifically.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Any year past consumer

19 surveys speak about soil?

20 MS. VALLAEYS: We never asked that

21 question. We, we have about five questions that

22 we ask, and soil was never part of that.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: I had a question about

2 you were talking about sodium phosphate and you

3 referenced that because they're not on the

4 European and Japanese lists they're not

5 essential. There's a lot of differences between

6 the materials lists internationally. For

7 example, both those, Europe for sure, list

8 carrageenan on the list of material that we chose

9 to remove. And Europe itself doesn't restrict

10 the use of these non-organic substances to just 5

11 percent in formulation, it's open to any

12 percentage of the formulation.

13 So, given these large differences in

14 our lists, is that really the good place for us

15 to look to make these determinations?

16 MS. VALLAEYS: Wait. I'm confused

17 about you said they're on the list but they're

18 still allowed in the European Union?

19 MR. CHAPMAN: The European Union, you

20 know, allows carrageenan. That was the --

21 MS. VALLAEYS: Right.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: -- substance that your
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1 organization has lobbied us prior to remove. We

2 recommended its removal. We'll see what happens

3 in the further rulemaking steps.

4 But that's a difference between our

5 lists, much like sodium phosphate's a difference

6 in Uruguay.

7 MS. VALLAEYS: That's interesting. 

8 Okay.

9 Yeah, well, so sodium phosphate if

10 it's prohibited, and in the EU and in Japan, and

11 those markets are still served pretty well by,

12 right, organic products, to us that shows, that

13 just raises questions about is it really

14 essential. And so we have more details in our

15 written comments. But combining that with the

16 fact, for example, that you can find products in

17 the U.S. where very similar products will not

18 have sodium phosphate; right? They will have

19 found other ways, whether it's other ingredients

20 or they just don't use it, and it maybe tastes

21 slightly different. Or it has certain, you know,

22 certain differences but it can still be done.
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1 So I think that we just need to look

2 very closely at what it means to be essential

3 versus is it useful. Because it's certainly

4 something can be very useful but not, that's not

5 the same as being essential.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. I would just

7 advise that we need to keep close attention to

8 the European list as a reference for other

9 substances they allow in the amount of a non10 organic substance in there. And so it may not be

11 a comparable situation since American handlers

12 are restricted to a 5 percent usage of that non13 organic substance, where in Europe they could use

14 6, 10, 20, 40, 50 percent of the product could be

15 that product. It's a substantial difference.

16 Sue.

17 MS. BAIRD: Sorry, and I may just not

18 have heard you correctly, but I thought that I

19 heard you urge us to prohibit antibiotics in

20 poultry?

21 MS. VALLAEYS: Yes. So we've been

22 urging that for many years.
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1 Currently organic producers can use --

2 MS. BAIRD: Oh, you mean --

3 MS. VALLAEYS: Yes.

4 MS. BAIRD: I'm sorry. Because I was

5 thinking there's no antibiotics in poultry.

6 MS. VALLAEYS: It starts on day two.

7 MS. BAIRD: Yeah, okay. Yeah.

8 MS. VALLAEYS: Right. And that for us

9 has been when we explain labels to consumers and

10 we try to explain organic, the fact that we have

11 to put in parentheses "organic prohibits

12 antibiotics," but I always have to tell the

13 magazine writers, no, you need to put a

14 parentheses in there "except for poultry prior to

15 day two." And so if we could just get rid of

16 that and make it consistent and uniform so that

17 we can say to consumers organic means no

18 antibiotics period, that would be --

19 MS. BAIRD: Thank you. I'm sorry, I

20 misunderstood what you were saying.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley, and then we'll

22 have to stop there.
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1 MS. SWAFFAR: Before I get off this

2 Board, Charlotte, that is my goal.

3 MS. VALLAEYS: Thank you.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Charlotte.

5 MS. VALLAEYS: Thank you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Appreciate it.

7 Emily is up next followed by Karl

8 Hammer. Emily if you could start with name and

9 affiliation for the record.

10 MS. MUSGRAVE: Good evening. My name

11 is Emily Musgrave. I am the Organics Program

12 Manager at Driscoll's. Thank you for this

13 opportunity to comment on the Crops Subcommittee

14 proposal hydroponics and container growing

15 recommendations.

16 My comments focus on the container

17 growing recommendations section. As an avid

18 supporter of the organic industry, Driscoll's

19 requests the Board vote no on this proposal.

20 The organic movement centers on

21 principles of inclusion, environmental

22 stewardship, and sustainable management of
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1 agricultural lands, while providing healthy,

2 nutritious food to consumers. Growers pride

3 themselves on taking advantage of nature's

4 ecosystem services. Although organic farmers use

5 tried and tested methods, such as integrated pest

6 management processes, they are also champions of

7 innovation and are eager to embrace technologies

8 such as container production that allow them to

9 grow more food in an environmentally sustainable

10 way.

11 We believe this proposal, which

12 mandates prescriptive requirements for container

13 production, would stifle much-needed innovation. 

14 The vast majority of container producers would

15 not be able to meet the requirements of this

16 proposal and would therefore be classified as

17 hydroponic and prohibited from obtaining organic

18 certification.

19 The proposal limits growers' nitrogen

20 usage, which is problematic when considering

21 enforcement during the organic auditing process. 

22 You may remember the now-expired NOP rule that
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1 limited growers' usage of Chilean sodium nitrate

2 to 20 percent. Growers were required to document

3 how much sodium nitrate they used annually during

4 their organic inspections. This proved

5 challenging in many ways, including how the rule

6 was enforced through organic inspections.

7 The nitrogen requirements of this

8 proposal would create problems similar to the

9 sodium nitrate rule with regards to enforcement. 

10 It would halt progress, creativity, and

11 innovation of the organic sector. Container

12 producers who meet the standards set forth by the

13 Organic Foods Production Act and the National

14 Organic Program are already producing healthy

15 organic foods in a sustainable way. They should

16 not be denied organic certification because they

17 do not meet the overly prescriptive requirements

18 of this proposal.

19 Allowing innovation and creativity is

20 essential to building a system that is even more

21 sustainable and environmentally responsible. 

22 Driscoll's would welcome container production
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1 standards in line with the core principles of

2 organic production that allow growers to adjust

3 their systems based on the conditions of their

4 specific site.

5 Organic container growers embrace the

6 opportunity to be more sustainable, to use less

7 water, less inputs, and mitigate and reduce the

8 stress on already over-used natural resources. 

9 Let's empower our farmers' desire to produce

10 organic food in sustainable ways while preserving

11 our agricultural landscapes, natural resources,

12 fostering creativity, and using technological

13 advances.

14 We ask that the Board help keep these

15 paths of innovation open and vote no on this

16 proposal.

17 I thank you for your service and for

18 your consideration of my comments.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave.

20 MS. MUSGRAVE: Questions?

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave, Steve. I'm going

22 to cut it off so raise your hands now.
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1 All right, Dave and Steve.

2 MR. MORTENSEN: Yeah. You've probably

3 been here this afternoon and heard a lot of the

4 presentations. I've been spending a lot of time

5 with a group of students reading about the carbon

6 footprint of hydroponic production. And in

7 several meta-analyses the carbon footprint ranges

8 from 2.5 times the carbon footprint of soil to in

9 excess of 100 times the carbon footprint of crops

10 grown in soil.

11 Could you tell us how that's a

12 sustainable mode of production then, given the

13 concern we have about greenhouse gases and fossil

14 fuel use in any form of life, whether it's

15 transportation or agriculture?

16 MS. MUSGRAVE: Yeah, that's a really

17 great question. I'm going to touch a little bit

18 on it. But actually we have Ian Justus, a

19 colleague of mine, speaking, and he would be more

20 of the subject matter expert on this.

21 But I do know that what was stated

22 before saying that, you know, because container
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1 plants are in a media of, you know, coco and

2 coir, that type of thing, that they are not

3 absorbing carbon. And I believe that is

4 incorrect. The plants are actually sequestering

5 carbon.

6 So I will leave it at that and I will

7 let Ian, he's the one you want to go into more

8 detail on that question.

9 MR. MORTENSEN: Okay. I'll pursue it

10 with him.

11 MS. MUSGRAVE: Yes, please ask.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: I'm just going on the

13 published literature with these ranges, and it's

14 really striking. Actually the more I look into

15 it, the more surprised I am at the difference

16 between an in-soil and otherwise crops.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Dave.

18 Steve.

19 MR. ELA: Just Ashley's been asking my

20 questions. So how -- what is your crop rotation? 

21 How do you get around that?

22 MS. MUSGRAVE: Well --
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1 MR. ELA: You're growing perennials,

2 so.

3 MS. MUSGRAVE: Right. So the crop

4 rotation obviously for blueberries, a perennial

5 crop, growers in the soil aren't rotating the

6 base. And so the way we do it is we follow the

7 organic system plan by our certifier.

8 You know, they come out there and they

9 say, Do you have cover crops planted in between

10 the furrow? Do you have beneficial plantings? 

11 Do you have hydros?

12 So, I have seen container production

13 fields and soil fields right next to each other

14 and they are following the exact same system

15 plan, organic system plan, and they meet the

16 letter of the law because blueberries aren't --

17 you don't rotate blueberries, but you do other

18 things that are included in the organic system

19 plan like having a cover crop in between the

20 furrow, or beneficial plantings.

21 MR. ELA: So are you saying in between

22 your containers you have cover crops planted?
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1 MS. MUSGRAVE: Yes, they could do

2 that, absolutely.

3 MR. ELA: But do you? Not could.

4 MS. MUSGRAVE: I don't -- I'm not sure

5 entirely as far -- Actually, you know what, we do

6 have a container grower who's planting cover

7 crops. And they also have beneficial plantings

8 all along the side of their, their operation.

9 MR. ELA: Is that the standard

10 practice?

11 MS. MUSGRAVE: You know, it's a

12 practice. I'm not certain if every single grower

13 is. But they have to, in order to be compliant

14 with the organic system plan they must be doing

15 one of those, one of those choices. So they are,

16 you know, being inspected by organic inspectors, 

17 and in order to comply they have to be doing one

18 of those practices. So, yes, they would be doing

19 one of those practices.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

21 Up next is Karl Hammer followed by Tom

22 Barrett.
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1 Karl, if you would start with your

2 name and affiliation.

3 MR. HAMMER: I am Karl Hammer. And I 

4 own and operate a business in Montpelier,

5 Vermont, called the Vermont Compost Company. And

6 I was -- I started my farming in Vermont in my

7 late teens, '68 or so, on a hill farm, shallow to

8 bedrock. I had to clear a lot of the land. It

9 had been in my family since I was about 8 or 9

10 years old, but it was definitely a run-out old

11 hill farm at the top of the watershed.

12 Pastures were grown to trees. And I

13 cleared some of the wrong land first because it

14 was easier to see that there was land there. And

15 started where it was a 6- or 8-cow farm at the

16 best, at the most rather, which wasn't so out of

17 character at that time there. But the biggest

18 farm enclosure ever was a 30-cow farm.

19 But I learned a lot about manure and

20 my need for it and the limits of shallow soils. 

21 And I quickly realized I couldn't sell milk so I

22 decided to grow vegetables. And I was afraid of
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1 chemicals. And I started sharecropping manure --

2 hay on both sides of the hill and making cattle. 

3 And long story short, now many years later I

4 provide compost and container media to now 600

5 commercial growers, many of them certified

6 organic.

7 And so I have a -- I traffic in soil. 

8 We talk a lot about soil and ethics here. There

9 are only a couple of us in the room, we had a

10 couple soil traffickers had supper together last

11 night -- there are only two of us around -- that

12 actually sell material. And, you know, when we

13 started we endured the dismissive derision of

14 being "muck and magic" farmers. Here 40, more

15 than 40 years later now, almost 50 years later I

16 am a "muck and magic" farmer. I'm proud of it.

17 I believe that my knowledge is dwarfed

18 by my ignorance, and that we had been warned

19 about this many times, but we may be in an

20 interesting condition in terms of humanity's

21 history.

22 I now have customers in Oklahoma and
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1 Iowa taking a little bit of our terroir and

2 germinating seed in it. And so I've been

3 watching this whole question of containers and

4 amendments. You know, I'd ask you to consider

5 the scale, the scale issues between a container

6 and soil. They are orders of magnitude. And

7 that matters in all of this.

8 I oppose the liquid feeding. I know

9 that media can be prepared to produce without

10 amendment in various confining situations.

11 I'll leave it at that. And maybe a

12 couple questions would be welcome.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

14 Sue then Steve. Anyone else? Asa.

15 MS. BAIRD: I have a dear friend in

16 Illinois who has some operations in Missouri that

17 makes bio-compost. And if I told you his name

18 you'd probably know it. But they also make --

19 they use that same compost and they make a

20 compost, liquefied compost manure, or whatever

21 you want to call it. And he assures me that that

22 has the same components, other than it's
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1 liquefied, as the dry does.

2 And, therefore, he believes that that,

3 that solution run through an NFT system or

4 whatever would have the same kind of biology as

5 his dry compost does. Could you comment on that,

6 please?

7 MR. HAMMER: Yeah. Well, liquid

8 substrates and their biology and their mechanics

9 depend a lot on their moisture content overall. 

10 So liquids drives air from media. It may well be

11 possible to transport beneficial materials into a

12 soil as a slurry. And that, we can get into a

13 long discussion about that.

14 Merely having compost in a circulating

15 liquid is not at all analogous to the half

16 billion year model represented by soil, plants,

17 root, fungal, biological interaction. It isn't

18 inherently a bad thing as an instead-of-soil.

19 You know, there may come a moment

20 where the coir does become in some form a soil. 

21 And we keep -- we are in a time of anthropogenic

22 pedo -- anthropocene pedogenesis. We are as big
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1 an actor as plants now. We're a species that

2 stepped out of the soil less than 2 million years

3 ago, you know, in a system that is half a billion

4 years old.

5 And we have been warned in -- you

6 know, I came prepared to read a short Vedic

7 proverb about this instead of what I did say. 

8 Being warned about the collapse of soil is

9 disrespected. And I don't, you know, we worked

10 hard to build the organic label. It never

11 occurred to us that our, my own business slogan

12 taken from Sir Albert Howard is shamelessly

13 taken, "feed the soil," because we understood

14 that feeding -- we don't make soil, we assemble

15 and --

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Can you wrap up.

17 MR. HAMMER: -- participate in a

18 mystery.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

20 Steve.

21 MR. ELA: So I just, I didn't

22 completely follow. But you said you sell compost
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1 to a number of container growers. And but then

2 later, and you said later that you felt like they

3 could use your compost mix to grow crops without

4 additional feeding. Did I hear that right?

5 MR. HAMMER: Yes. We do -- and I'm

6 talking about a broad range of grower and grower

7 types. So, yes, volume of media is a very

8 important issue technically in this discussion. 

9 And as a media seller I often find myself in the

10 uncomfortable position of recommending more media

11 because it gives much better result, more buffer

12 capacity you know.

13 And if you look at the scale change to

14 a little cell and then map what a -- the foraging

15 potential in a soil situation, in a soil the

16 plant can move around certain things. It has a

17 lot more opportunity.

18 When you make scale changes that are

19 decimal orders of magnitude it really changes all

20 of the physics and the biology. So, and I

21 emphasize that point because, yes, most of my

22 grower, many of my grower customers predominantly
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1 they take our media, they use it for seedling

2 production, and they don't amend. They up-pot,

3 they go as the root fills the cell that indicates

4 it's time for more forage opportunity.

5 We, when I say we work with a lot of

6 different people, we work on distressed

7 substrates, asphalt parking lots, where we have

8 to provide the whole media and food needs to be

9 grown. And in a lot of those urban settings at

10 this point you can't recommend that they allow

11 the plants to forage because we know it's not

12 safe.

13 Am I answering your question? What we

14 do know is that our process of -- and we use a

15 lot of compost as a first --

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I'm going to

17 have to move on to the next question.

18 Asa.

19 MR. BRADMAN: I have two questions. 

20 One, it sounds like you're selling compost to

21 organic farmers and they're using it as a

22 supplement, or maybe that's part of it. And then
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1 actually you just raised a good point about using

2 your soil media for growing food on asphalt and

3 things like that which would basically inherently

4 be a container or raised bed system.

5 And does that mean you would support

6 the container system? I mean, I think here's a

7 real issue where there's some --

8 MR. HAMMER: I have strong hesitation

9 in calling container systems on asphalt organic,

10 partially because of international rule. You

11 know, as I understand European rule, if you're

12 going to call a container growing thing organic,

13 the container and the media come so that the

14 customer can see it for themselves. And I think

15 that's a reasonable thing.

16 When I say we work with people in

17 distressed soil, frequently in those projects

18 they're pretty local projects and I don't know

19 that they, that they -- that calling that organic

20 is important. I don't know that it should never

21 be called organic. I think the standard, I think

22 a standard about how much nutrition can be
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1 delivered by liquid system, or by any system,

2 because we know that you can -- if a volume of

3 media is sufficient and it's properly made then

4 it can, it will be soil and it can move on and

5 rotate. You can actually increase its mass by

6 proper rotations in sequence.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

8 MR. HAMMER: We're working with

9 microgreens people, and a number of them, and

10 this is coming up a lot.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

12 MR. HAMMER: And we are really

13 starting to try to develop rotation plans.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: We're going to have to

15 move along. Thank you.

16 MR. HAMMER: Sorry.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much.

18 Asa, do you have one last question or

19 did you get it answered? Thank you.

20 Okay, thank you very much.

21 MR. HAMMER: Thank you. And thank you

22 for your work. It's a knotty question.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you,

2 Karl.

3 Up next is Tom followed by Angela

4 TenBroeck -- sorry if I butchered that -- on

5 deck.

6 Tom, if you can start with your name

7 and affiliation, please.

8 MR. BARRETT: Yeah, sure.

9 Good evening everybody. My name is

10 Tom Barrett. I'm a stakeholder and I actively

11 manage Allen Farms located in Westport,

12 Massachusetts. We are a certified organic farm

13 producing soil-grown herbs, greens, vegetables,

14 and fruit for wholesale retailers and farmers'

15 markets as well. The farm was founded by my

16 mother 30 years ago and has been certified

17 organic since 1989.

18 This is my first appearance at an NSOB

19 meeting. And I thank you guys for doing what you

20 do. And I'm honored to be here to have the

21 opportunity to speak.

22 Allen Farms was founded on the love of
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1 quality food. Organic by belief and choice at

2 first, before realizing that being certified

3 organic will allow others to acknowledge the

4 quality and at the same time be willing to pay

5 the additional costs incurred with growing

6 organic, because they most likely as well share

7 and want to support the same beliefs behind

8 organic growing.

9 By selling the farm's produce at

10 farmers' markets, I am able to get immediate,

11 honest feedback from all my consumers. And it's

12 becoming very evident that the USDA certified

13 organic label is starting to lose its clout. The

14 younger generations are growing increasingly more

15 concerned about their health and eating healthier

16 food, seeking and now expecting transparency,

17 reading labels as they are concerned about

18 ingredients more than ever before, especially

19 when it comes to their food.

20 Many big businesses think that they

21 can influence markets and industries to trick or

22 deceive consumers with savvy labeling tactics. 
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1 They are unfortunately creating confusion and

2 questions amongst consumers and, in turn,

3 diluting the credentials even, if applicable, to

4 the certifying agencies, all while these large

5 corporations are just focused on cashing in on

6 the trends, as we have seen double-digit growth

7 in organic demand over the past two decades.

8 Let's not make this identity issue any

9 worse and take the opportunity to set the

10 precedents and create a turning point through

11 strengthening our USDA label and its symbolism. 

12 Standards should be getting more simple, yet

13 vigorous, so the majority of the population can

14 easily understand it.

15 Now I fully support technology and

16 innovation. With that, we get hydroponic and

17 other mediums of growing. I see alternative

18 methods as a great way to be able to increase our

19 domestic production. This also allows for small

20 scale home growers to be able to produce their

21 own food when outdoor space is not available.

22 So, with the advances in farming and
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1 the growing concern for quality food it is

2 becoming evident to my peers and myself that the

3 oversight for these methods needs to advance in

4 sync. Hydroponic growing is not organic by the

5 founding beliefs behind organic farming. As a

6 grower and a consumer it's astonishing that these

7 are even comparable under one blanketed guise of

8 organic. We need to resolve this current

9 situation that is clearly spiraling out of

10 control with money accelerating the wild fire.

11 We need to resolve the integrity and

12 do something before it jeopardizes the youth

13 future and reliance and trust in the system.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

15 Questions? Emily.

16 MS. OAKLEY: I have the same

17 question. I'm not sure how familiar you are with

18 the Crops Subcommittee proposal, but we have a

19 motion for containers. And I'm wondering if you

20 would support compromise of containers or if you

21 would like to see just grown in the soil in the

22 ground?
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1 MR. BARRETT: No chance. I recommend

2 to the Board to keep this simple and only allow

3 soil-grown produce to be certified organic. I

4 would like for other small scale farmers, young

5 and up-and-coming farms, including myself, to

6 have the opportunity to compete on a level

7 playing field amongst soil-grown organic produce.

8 Bring back the true identity of our

9 label, so consumers can be assured of their

10 purchases by seeing the USDA label on there and

11 knowing exactly what it means rather than having

12 the meaning so complex that no one understands

13 exactly what organic is anymore.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

15 We're going to move on to our next

16 commenter Angela. And after that we have Ian

17 Justus on deck.

18 MR. BARRETT: And just for the

19 labeling, there's about four different things on

20 this little gummy bear package. And you guys

21 just look up the different things on there.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.
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1 MS. TENBROECK: Hello. Are we ready?

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Is the mic on?

3 MS. TENBROECK: Can you hear me?

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. Perfect.

5 MS. TENBROECK: Hello. My name is

6 Angela TenBroeck, and I'm a fourth generation

7 farmer. I am the owner of THF Hubery and I am

8 currently the Executive Director for the Center

9 for Sustainable Agricultural Excellence and

10 Conservation. I have operated, owned, and been

11 successful at attaining SQF Level 3 certification

12 for a large aquaponics farm in this region of the

13 country.

14 Today I stand before you to encourage

15 you with data and science. The new Food Safety

16 and Modernization Act changed the way many

17 farmers farm. The FSMA encourages farmers,

18 consumers, government officials, and food safety

19 auditors to look at science. It is my suggestion

20 that the NOSB does the same.

21 We can no longer hold out that a

22 facility can't be organic because they don't
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1 plant in the dirt. We must think of our future

2 and our children's future.

3 We have -- I have always pondered as a

4 farmer why aquaponics wasn't considered organic. 

5 So I went to organic meetings with certifiers and

6 asked why was my farming technique not considered

7 organic? And the simple answer was: wasn't grown

8 in soil.

9 I went back to my farm, consulted with

10 industry experts, and asked each one: What should

11 I do to prove my farm is food safe and organic? 

12 Their answers were you need to be held to the

13 same standards as the ground growers and other

14 controlled environment ag people are held.

15 So, I went to all the food safety

16 trainings: HACCP, Ag Water, SQF, BCQI, USDA Food

17 Safety, and anything else I would take myself to. 

18 Never hearing any reasons why I, as an aquaponics

19 farmer -- excuse me -- could not get this organic

20 certification, something other than this raw

21 manure and soil.

22 So, to the first point, I conducted 
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1 baseline data of more than 20 months at the farm

2 to include total coliform, e coli, salmonella,

3 and listeria, and the produce, and the nutrient

4 water to never get a positive result.

5 So, I get to these meetings and I meet

6 all these lovely people. And I hear your

7 passionate ideas about what is organic. So I

8 agree, we are different. But let me take it

9 further as I have worked in this quest to be

10 organic.

11 The next point I have is that my

12 plants are not planted in soil, so therefore they

13 are not natural or do not have natural soil

14 components. I reached out to my web of

15 scientists and asked: Is this true?

16 So Dr. Ingram has said that, yes, my

17 produce and the soil underneath my plants -- the

18 water that I speak of -- did have in fact the

19 food web that was required as indicated in soil,

20 the normal food web that would be aerobic and

21 would generate more microbes to grow my plants.

22 On this personal research, as well as
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1 anecdotal research information, I can only

2 conclude that nutrient water that is below my

3 plants in aquaponic systems is as or more organic

4 than we have been given credit. So, given this

5 information maybe we do need a different label.

6 To conclude, we can no longer work in

7 this us versus them approach. We must research

8 what is being conducted in public and private

9 facilities, to work for our futures, our

10 counties', our country's future, food security

11 and safety.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

13 Questions?

14 MS. TENBROECK: Carbon footprint

15 question? I'm ready.

16 MR. BRADMAN: I'll ask that. And in

17 terms of the fertility, so you're bringing in

18 fish food and feeding the fish and then you're

19 using the fish waste to --

20 MS. TENBROECK: Yeah.

21 MR. BRADMAN: -- culture your plants. 

22 So it's kind of a hydroponic system with a animal
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1 source essentially?

2 MS. TENBROECK: Yes. So, I, great,

3 great way of describing aquaponics. So, many

4 people think of aquaponics as this thing people

5 do in their backyard where there's all these

6 fishes swimming below people's plants. That is

7 not what I do.

8 So what we do is is we take the fish

9 poop, as you would call it, push it through an

10 intense bioreaction process so there are no

11 flocculents in the water. Because the big deal

12 is is that we are concerned about food safety. 

13 Everybody knows that it's a big concern with

14 aquaponics. Is it going to make me sick?

15 So, we've overcome that. Okay? And

16 so from there it becomes hydroponic, deep water

17 culture, NFT, a proprietary thing that I

18 developed as far as the grow channel, I mean,

19 that we work in.

20 MR. BRADMAN: What are your positions

21 on the proposals that are before the Board right

22 now?
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1 MS. TENBROECK: So when I got here I

2 was a little bit like Why can't we join? I'm

3 going to be perfectly honest with you. I sat

4 around and listened to this and I'm thinking we

5 should just go ahead and do our own label.

6 I don't disagree that maybe we

7 shouldn't have a hydro -- maybe not call it

8 organic, maybe we come up with some other

9 creative label for ourselves.

10 So I'm going to ponder on this because

11 I am fully, I fully understand these people's

12 work. I don't -- I get they think we're on their

13 coattails. And maybe we are. That's not my --

14 that's not for me to decide.

15 MR. BRADMAN: Do you think that label

16 should be under the National Organic Program?

17 MS. TENBROECK: I do. I think there

18 need to be standards. I think there needs to be

19 a centered set for food safety. Okay, we all

20 agree on that, that was done with FMSA.

21 But I also believe that there should

22 be an environmental standard for the manner in
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1 which we treat, you know, our fish; the manner in

2 which we treat our grounds around our facilities. 

3 All the things that they are asking for that they

4 have done we are interested in as well. So a lot

5 of the things, we all agree on a lot of the same. 

6 This is a movement. Okay. I've heard that over

7 and over again. I agree as an aquaponics

8 researcher and person that, yes, in fact I agree

9 with the fact that, you know, there's a lot of

10 this stuff that you're talking about I agree

11 with.

12 But I also agree that my food is

13 readily available, it can feed the masses, it's

14 safe, it's clean, and I can grow it in one spot

15 and I can grow more than a ground grower. I get

16 it, okay. But that's just what we do. So we do

17 need a different label. And I'm anticipating

18 that's probably where I will move towards.

19 And I will meet with the Aquaponics

20 Association this weekend on that.

21 MR. BRADMAN: So are you concerned

22 about consumer confusion over labels?
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1 MS. TENBROECK: Yeah. Actually I

2 would like -- so I always believe on a business

3 side that we must do a marketing campaign. So

4 forgive me, aquaponics -- or organic folks, we

5 haven't done a good job with organics in

6 explaining what it is. So, therefore, that would

7 cause in some ways people -- I, when I talk with

8 people about organic this is what they think:

9 It's safe. My family can eat it.

10 Okay, what else? Well, tell me about

11 it? Tell me about this, tell me about organics;

12 what is it?

13 They don't know the story of these

14 guys that have worked their whole lives trying to

15 rehab soil. They don't -- they don't get that

16 story. And I don't mean to be disrespectful. 

17 I'm not trying to be. I know the work that they

18 have put in. I've followed them for years.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

20 MS. TENBROECK: Uh-huh.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave, did you want to

22 ask the carbon question?
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: No, I'm not.

2 MS. TENBROECK: All right. Thank you

3 so much for your time.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Wait, wait, wait. Sue

5 has a question for you.

6 MS. BAIRD: I'm so sorry for

7 commenting on this thing.

8 MS. TENBROECK: Hi, Sue. Hi.

9 MS. BAIRD: You have presumed all

10 along that you're growing organic hydroponics. 

11 What is the difference in an organic hydroponics

12 and a conventional hydroponics? And is there a

13 difference?

14 MS. TENBROECK: Yes. If you want to

15 talk about the fact that what we're doing is

16 hydroponic, okay. Technically we have it come

17 through the bioreactor, and we have fertilizer

18 that comes out of that.

19 So if you want to say that those, that

20 greenhouse that's full of nothing but those fish

21 water, nutrient soil, if that's in fact -- we're

22 just going to talk about hydroponic, eliminate
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1 the fish -- I would think that something that

2 poops, and we take it through the cycle, the

3 nitrification process, and it's in fact able to

4 make its readily available nutrients to the

5 plants, and they're able to do what they need to

6 grow, the nutrients are readily available there,

7 the protozoas are all there, the bacteria, you

8 know, the uptake and such. So yes, I think that

9 is different than somebody going to a Dosatron,

10 okay, I need a 1 to 50 or 1 to 1,000, and I need

11 -- I put, I only put some, some battery acid in

12 it, and that can be considered organic. I'm

13 sorry, I think that what we do is organic.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

15 Actually, I'm going to ask you if you

16 could briefly talk about the carbon impact of

17 your operation.

18 MS. TENBROECK: So, the University of

19 Michigan does a great job on this. So if you've

20 ever been interested in this we -- and the

21 operation -- I have to be honest with you, I sold

22 my operation in February -- but the operation was
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1 run on a gravity flow. And so in general for ag

2 situations vegetables take up 4.9 percent of the

3 total carbon footprint, whereas dairy and beef

4 take up, you know, 47. So I always am pondering,

5 you know, let's talk about this, we have

6 greenhouse growers and we have the energy, the

7 coal power that it takes to turn those fans and

8 such. That is an issue.

9 But let's also talk about the fact

10 that if we're getting produce here in

11 Jacksonville, from Salinas County it's 776 miles

12 to my door. There's a carbon footprint imprint

13 there. So I'm saying if you want to talk about

14 carbon footprint, buy my local stuff. There's a

15 bigger impact in local with the carbon footprint

16 argument than there is anything else.

17 And so the source of this, it's the

18 University of Michigan. They've really done a

19 good job with this carbon footprint. And I would

20 strongly suggest that you guys share that with

21 the sustainable systems. It's the University of

22 Michigan sustainable systems.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you

2 very much.

3 Up next is Ian Justus. No one is on

4 deck which means Ian is all that is keeping us

5 from trick or treating.

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Ian, I was really hoping

8 you would dress up as a strawberry or other berry

9 of your choice.

10 I'm sorry. Ian, can you start with

11 your name and affiliation for the record.

12 MR. JUSTUS: Sure. Well, thanks for

13 waiting.

14 My name is Ian Justus. And I work

15 with Driscoll's. I appreciate the opportunity to

16 comment on the organic hydroponic container

17 proposal today.

18 My specialization at Driscoll's is

19 focused on research and development relating to

20 the development of new production systems, and

21 agronomic consultation on all aspects of growing

22 the four berry types in conventional, organic,
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1 soil, and container.

2 At the end of this process, it will be

3 my job to make the growing recommendation to our

4 growers on how they can comply with the new

5 container standards. And I can tell you as the

6 current proposal stands, I really don't know how

7 to container grow long-term perennial crops in

8 this system as it, you know, it creates many

9 management challenges.

10 I have heard through this process that

11 the reasoning behind the 50 percent of the

12 upfront nutrition is because this is how all

13 organic soil should be managed. If I encountered

14 an organic soil berry grower with this

15 fertilization practice, it was my professional

16 advice to change their practices.

17 And the reason for this is because of

18 the high exposure to salinity to a young plant,

19 the increase in vegetative growth that can occur

20 with this that causes problems with disease, and

21 harvest efficiencies, and that this release curve

22 of the nitrogen will not match the uptake curve
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1 of the plant. And this is going to lead to

2 groundwater contamination and nitrate runoff.

3 This proposal dictates how to manage

4 nitrogen fertility for all crops in a few

5 sentences, and forces the grower to determine

6 total nitrogen for the year by the day of

7 planting. This really leaves little room for

8 adjustment.

9 And I understand the Board's intention

10 and the challenge here, but the complexity of the

11 farming really cannot be simplified in this

12 manner. There will be so many conflicts with

13 different cropping systems. In particular, the

14 Board should not be recommending such high rates

15 of early nitrogen when the crop will be growing

16 for over six months.

17 Our regional water quality boards

18 would not support this method of fertilization. 

19 And California growers are responsible for

20 managing nitrate runoff and percolation in their

21 fields. I don't think the Board will like the

22 reality this proposal will create. It will cause
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1 more pollution, unfavorable root zone conditions,

2 and encourage over-application of nitrogen.

3 The key to the thoughtful management

4 of nitrogen fertilization is applying it based on

5 crop development and matching the nitrate uptake

6 curve for the given cropping system.

7 Driscoll's and its growers support a

8 meaningful container standard. We urge the Board

9 to send this back to subcommittee for further

10 work. The topic has great impact on the future

11 organic produce and deserves more work and

12 attention. Farming practices inherently

13 progress, and we need to send the right message

14 to future generations of organic farmers.

15 This recommendation is counter to the

16 current schools of thought. As board members you

17 must ask yourself is it appropriate to be this

18 broadly prescriptive on farming practices? If

19 so, is this really how you want fertility to be

20 managed? And does this proposal clearly define

21 what regional conditions are acceptable for

22 organic certification?
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1 I really believe this creates a

2 reality that directly conflicts with the organic

3 principles of adjusting the scientific

4 conditions, creating healthy root zone

5 conditions, and being a good steward of the land.

6 I would like to thank the Board for

7 all their service. And I would happily take any

8 questions you might have.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Ian.

10 Steve.

11 MR. ELA: At the risk of standing

12 between Tom and his candy. So normally, I mean,

13 soil growers are in the soil. You have most of

14 your fertility upfront. And you have cover crops

15 and release curves; things are dynamic and

16 cycling.

17 And I don't see that in the container

18 systems. And that's, I mean, that's one of the

19 differences. I hear what you're saying, you put

20 this in the front, you're going to lose it

21 because the plant -- your crop plant's the only

22 thing in that system. But it seems like that's
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1 one of the fallacies of this system as well.

2 So, could you comment on that?

3 And I would also like to know the

4 water you put in, I'm assuming the plants don't

5 always take up all the nitrogen. Where does

6 that, I mean you have exudate, bypass, what are

7 you doing with that water?

8 MR. JUSTUS: Sure. And I'll be fully

9 honest with you. So, I mean, we really learned

10 how to do containers from how we managed our

11 soil. So in many cases, the growers are actually

12 managing very similar to how you'd manage a soil

13 blueberry planting versus a container blueberry

14 planting, because it's more like an orchard than

15 a rotating annual crop. Right? So there's no

16 way to really till, turn over, or really affect

17 the nutrient balance for the blueberry without

18 applying it through the drip system.

19 You can do some top dressing. You can

20 do some side shaking of the soil. And we do the

21 same thing. We can't side shake in a pot but we

22 can do top dressing. So we'll address it in that
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1 manner.

2 And the blueberry root system in

3 particular is really not expansive. It's not

4 into the furrow. It's very isolated. There's

5 not a good way to actually put it on. So that's

6 basically the way we'll do it, we'll put compost

7 on the top, or we'll top dress solid fertility.

8 But, you know, all these things are

9 inputs. This discussion about the different

10 types of nitrogen, solid versus liquid, really

11 boils down to the complexity of the protein. 

12 That's what we're talking about. Right? Which

13 one -- solid protein is a little more complex

14 than liquid soluble protein, but they all have to

15 really go through the nitrogen cycle, which

16 happens in solution by the way.

17 So I mean that's just one challenge

18 all perennial organic growers have, is how you

19 keep maintaining that when you can't actually

20 turn the soil over, you can't cover crop it,

21 especially in particular like a blueberry, which

22 is the majority of our organic container
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1 production.

2 MR. ELA: And then the water?

3 MR. JUSTUS: And the water. So, we

4 manage that very closely. And we -- usually

5 we're targeting a daily percentage, actually. 

6 And that's basically the leaching fraction, the

7 same thing you would have in soil. But where it

8 goes is really it goes right below the container.

9 And probably the worst thing we could

10 do for the soil in that field is to rob it of

11 that water. All microbial life needs water so to

12 live and thrive. And otherwise it would just be

13 a desert underneath. And we put gutters -- which

14 we could do, it would come at a great cost to the

15 grower -- that would actually rob the soil of the

16 exudate, the water.

17 But what we're not doing is hitting

18 field capacity in that soil, so we're not

19 actually getting down to the groundwater -- a big

20 advantage in my opinion. When I look at the

21 dynamics of what we can do in California and what

22 will be regulated on, it's protecting that
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1 groundwater. And we're not leaching into the

2 groundwater, because we're not hitting field

3 capacity.

4 In soil you pretty much hit field

5 capacity in every irrigation cycle.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Joelle.

7 MS. MOSSO: I had a question -- I'm

8 over here -- I had a question on the four trophic

9 levels. If you've had any time to look at that,

10 the four trophic levels in the minority view?

11 MR. JUSTUS: Yes, I did.

12 MS. MOSSO: Speak to that as to

13 whether or not that would be compliant in your

14 system?

15 MR. JUSTUS: Yeah. Arguably, it

16 really comes down to how you define a trophic

17 level. I think even a conventional hydroponic

18 system would have four trophic. We would way

19 exceed those levels. And we're not growing in

20 greenhouses; we're growing in open air tunnels. 

21 So the number of organisms that are present in

22 our environment, especially our long-term
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1 blueberry planting, is massive. We're probably

2 at least ten.

3 We have soil arthropods, you know, it

4 really depends on where is the production. Is it

5 in the soil that we're not growing in, because

6 that's full of life. Or is it, you know, there's

7 tons of spiders, there's snakes even. I mean

8 there's, it's there's a full range of

9 biodiversity going on in the field because we're

10 open. Can't keep things out even if we wanted

11 to. So four would be very simple.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

13 MS. BEHAR: Okay. So in those

14 blueberry fields are they -- I have visited some. 

15 I went to ecofarm, and you take the bus tour. 

16 And I know I've been to some -- quite a variety. 

17 And I've been to fields where they're covered in

18 landscape cloth and there isn't any cover crops

19 growing there. That's the first question.

20 The second question is: if the

21 containers were full of compost, no inert, I

22 think that they would meet that nitrogen need to
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1 start with. But you're saying that that wouldn't

2 work. And when the nitrogen is in a humus form,

3 its leaching capabilities is much less.

4 So maybe you could address those two

5 things.

6 MR. JUSTUS: Sure. So is there a

7 specific question about the landscape cloth

8 question?

9 MS. BEHAR: Yeah. Because the

10 previous woman said she thought that there was

11 cover crops growing between the rows and things

12 like that. And that's not what I saw.

13 MR. JUSTUS: Yes. I'll tell you, it

14 really depends on the operation. I work with all

15 the growers. So when they first started they

16 were like, What do we do? Right? It's always

17 kind of a question, like, how should I lay my

18 field out?

19 And some of them were like, well, I

20 really don't want to deal with weeds. I'm going

21 to cover it 100 percent.

22 And I can tell you the current school
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1 of thought amongst the growers is that's not the

2 way to do it anymore. In particular, I mean, in

3 perennial plants, you have pruning clippings. So

4 what do you do with the pruning clippings when

5 you're done? You can't till it into the soil

6 anymore because that cloth is there. It actually

7 creates like a big challenge for them.

8 So pretty much everyone now leaves

9 open the furrows, incorporates things into the

10 soil, particularly pruning trimmings. You know,

11 they cultivate to manage weeds, things like that.

12 So in that particular case, I mean,

13 obviously there wouldn't be cover cropping in

14 that area. But I think that meets the exemption

15 in the standards. I'm not 100 percent because

16 that's not my specialization.

17 And then regarding the compost

18 question for the container, I mean for every mix,

19 I mean, peat moss is how old? It's been

20 composted for long, long year. Coir is also

21 composted you could argue. But it comes down to

22 the stability of your organic matter; right?
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1 If you have totally unstable organic

2 matter, you're going to lose all your porosity. 

3 And that's going to create problems for the roots

4 and the microbes, because you obviously won't be

5 done.

6 And then the other big challenge we

7 see with it is that we're actually above the

8 ground, and so we don't have very much mass. So

9 because of that, that temperature fluctuation is

10 with the diurnal flux. So our daily average

11 temperature of the root zone is higher usually in

12 a container. So what that means is that process

13 actually happens quicker.

14 So with compost it would mean that we

15 have basically a very large carbon fraction that

16 isn't breakdownable, because otherwise you would

17 just destroy the root zone conditions from lack

18 of porosity. And then compost as well can be

19 very inherently salty, so you really would need

20 to manage what that is. And you would need a

21 large part of it to be stable organic matter,

22 which is basically what the media components are
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1 using currently is stable organic matter, or more

2 stable, even though it does break down over time. 

3 Very much so.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

5 Francis.

6 DR. THICKE: I think we have to clear

7 something up. The proposal we have for

8 containers is really is a de facto soil or

9 compost requirement. We aren't expecting you to

10 put all this nitrogen in this coconut coir. 

11 We're not that stupid. But you have to have

12 something that has some stable nitrogen or has to

13 -- a soil or compost has various stages of

14 nitrogen composition, from humus to less

15 recalcitrant to more label, a whole range, so

16 that the curve, release curve is longer.

17 And people have, and they showed us

18 how they could grow in 100 percent compost. Yes,

19 if you're going to have a mushy compost, it's

20 going to decompose. But you're going to -- you

21 have to have something that's, just like your

22 engineering your hydroponic system, you have to
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1 engineer your compost system. And I think John

2 Biernbaum is going to talk to us about that

3 tomorrow.

4 So these are straw man arguments that

5 make no sense. You know, we're not expecting you

6 to put all your nitrogen in soluble form in the

7 beginning of the year.

8 MR. JUSTUS: Agreed. But if you're

9 going to lose the structure, right, if it breaks

10 down then you lose the structure; right?

11 DR. THICKE: We'll hear more about

12 that tomorrow from John Biernbaum. He's done a

13 lot of research on that at Michigan State and has

14 made compost that worked really well for that.

15 MR. JUSTUS: Yeah. So I would ask

16 you, I guess, how do you manage the first six

17 years straight? I'd love to hear it.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. We have

19 Ashley and Sue and Asa. And we're going to cut

20 it off there. Sorry, I did totally skip over

21 Emily. So it's actually Emily, Ashley, Sue, Asa,

22 and then we're going to cut it off there.
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1 Sorry, Emily.

2 MS. OAKLEY: I think I remember from

3 the spring public testimony that you said that

4 the vast majority of Driscoll's production is in

5 the ground. Is that correct?

6 MR. JUSTUS: Yes.

7 MS. OAKLEY: So I guess I'm just

8 confused as to why you're advocating so strongly

9 for containers because it's such a small

10 percentage of your production, and what the

11 benefit to the containers -- container production

12 is over the soil?

13 MR. JUSTUS: It's a great question

14 because I was on the research team trying to

15 solve the same problems. And pretty much every

16 single one of our container growers is also a

17 organic soil grower for us as well.

18 And really, I mean, for one, the

19 grower sees a great opportunity to save water. 

20 There isn't a single example of an operation

21 we're not using at least 40 percent less water on

22 a per annual basis, which is pretty significant
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1 for our area.

2 It also, particularly for blueberries,

3 I mean blueberries prefer an extremely high

4 organic matter soil system, and that's just not

5 the natural system we have. And even, I mean,

6 the numbers we're getting, you know, 1-2 percent. 

7 That's not, that's not a viable system for

8 blueberries. You have to, the amount of

9 amendments you're adding were way more than

10 you're adding on a per acre basis. So growers

11 saw it as a way to decrease total inputs applied

12 as well. So we decreased the amount of fertility

13 we used, we decreased the amount of water we

14 used.

15 And we actually -- we actually

16 improved productivity. And we're not ashamed of

17 that. We're proud of that because we decreased

18 input usage and increased output, the coir can be

19 more sustainable and providing it just solved

20 several challenges.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Very quick.

22 MS. OAKLEY: Do you think some of
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1 those challenges might be because you're growing

2 blueberries in an environment that they don't

3 naturally want to grow in? I'm in northeastern

4 Oklahoma and we are in an area that is supposed

5 to have native blueberries. But even there, it's

6 really challenging to grow blueberries because we

7 have a warm, hot summer much like California

8 does.

9 Do you think that some of the

10 challenge is the geographic location for where

11 you're growing these crops?

12 MR. JUSTUS: Really it came down to

13 the geographic challenges around when the fruit

14 was going to get produced. We produce

15 blueberries all over the world, in places where

16 they would naturally grow and where they wouldn't

17 naturally grow. But really it came from a demand

18 for organic fruit in spring and fall, and you

19 needed the climate of California.

20 So by putting it there we saved a ton

21 of energy by instead of using some sort of

22 greenhouse system to hit those fruit requirements
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1 that the market was demanding. So that was

2 actually a much better solution, we thought -- to

3 go where the climate was naturally there so we

4 didn't have to put all the excess energy in to

5 produce the fruit.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

7 Ashley, Sue, Asa. Brief.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: Brief. Okay.

9 So you said a lot of your growers

10 produce in ground and container on the same farm. 

11 So can you describe their material input lists,

12 the differences between each of those systems? 

13 Is there a difference?

14 MR. JUSTUS: You're referring to

15 organic soil and organic container?

16 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

17 MR. JUSTUS: Yes. So the input lists

18 are going to be very similar. What you're going

19 to find particularly in a blueberry field is a

20 lot of soil amendments added previous to try and

21 make the soil that's not really adapted, adapted. 

22 So they do like, you know, tons and tons and tons
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1 of amendments. But fertility programs are very

2 similar between the two.

3 And then the pest control is pretty

4 much exactly the same.

5 So from the input list, actually the

6 soil is going to have more, especially in the

7 amendments of all the soil to try to make it

8 suitable for production.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

10 Sue. Brief.

11 MS. BAIRD: Yes. My question was

12 similar except that I -- do you do conventional

13 grown and organic grown blueberries?

14 MR. JUSTUS: Yes. I advise on all

15 systems.

16 MS. BAIRD: Okay. So what is the

17 difference in the input in a conventional

18 container-grown and an organic container-grown?

19 MR. JUSTUS: There wouldn't really be

20 any overlap. On fertility, there would be no

21 overlap. The convention people might use a

22 couple organic pest control products, but they
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1 would also use all the chemical options as well

2 just because they can.

3 But fertility, there is no overlap on

4 the sources they would use.

5 MS. BAIRD: I must not have made that

6 clear. In conventional inputs describe the

7 difference between a conventional and an organic

8 input, I mean in fertilities. Do you use your

9 ureas and whatever is in conventional? And then

10 what do you use in organic? What's the

11 differences?

12 MR. JUSTUS: Okay, sure. And really

13 the difference is mainly centered around the

14 nitrogen. And I really encourage the board to

15 look at some fertilizer labels. It's a legal

16 requirement called "guaranteed analysis" that you

17 have to put what is in that fertilizer present. 

18 And you'll see basically by law they have to put

19 percentage nitrate, percentage ammonia,

20 percentage urea. And in the case of organic,

21 they put soluble organic nitrogen and insoluble

22 organic nitrogen.
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1 If an organic fertilizer has nitrate

2 in it, they are legally obliged that they have to

3 put it on there. And that's what you don't find;

4 the board doesn't allow those products onto a

5 list. So what you see in organic is soluble

6 organic nitrogen, insoluble organic nitrogen. 

7 And those are the options we have.

8 In conventional production, what

9 you'll do is you'll basically target a level of

10 ammonia or nitrate, depending on crop need, and

11 that's what you'll target with. You won't add a

12 protein, because that basically requires a

13 microbial middleman to process, and you'll just

14 do a low rate continual application.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa. And, Dave, you

16 have a question? Okay, but that's it. And

17 brief.

18 Asa.

19 MR. BRADMAN: So I had a question

20 about how the -- sorry -- how the materials are

21 handled at the end of the cycle, containers; what

22 happens to the root ball? Are they reused? And
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1 also, what exactly is the root ball? And you

2 mentioned peat, and is there compost in there as

3 well? And so what happens to those materials? 

4 Are they taken off site, or what?

5 MR. JUSTUS: So that's really going to

6 vary by grower, of course. I won't give you that

7 ambiguous of an answer. But, you know, growers

8 have their own perspectives in their own

9 operations on what they're doing.

10 You know, most people are using a

11 blend of coir, peat, perlite, something like

12 that, and then some sort form of compost. You

13 know, I've been following this proceeding very

14 closely, and I advise all the growers, so we've

15 already begun testing these things. But it's

16 changing so quickly we're, like, well, what are

17 we actually trying to do?

18 So we've been playing with all sorts

19 of different composts, different forms and

20 availabilities, you know, in terms of breakdown

21 curves and things like that. Really, our

22 challenge is going to be, like, how do we manage
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1 it in years to come. And to be honest, we

2 haven't turned over a blueberry planting yet

3 because it's at least a 6-year cycle, and we just

4 haven't been doing it that long.

5 In the case of raspberries it's a

6 little bit shorter, 2.5 years maybe. And so what

7 we do there is either it's incorporate right into

8 the furrow, because it's all organic material so

9 then it will just be incorporated into the soil

10 on site. And then one of our larger growers has

11 basically began a massive composting operation

12 where they're doing compost and vermicompost. 

13 And those would go to that operation.

14 MR. BRADMAN: And then does that

15 compost go back into the containers?

16 MR. JUSTUS: Yeah, the compost will go

17 back in the container. Or they also have soil

18 production, so they send it to both places. And

19 they do a vermicompost extract liquid from that

20 system as well. That's also applied to soil and

21 the container system.

22 And so then we are looking, you know,
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1 if we're going to have a compost requirement,

2 what are the end requirements going to be is, you

3 know, we want more control over that. The

4 growers are probably going to likely produce

5 their own compost to go into the starting mix.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

7 And Dave.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes. Just thinking

9 about blueberries in the east where I'm familiar

10 with, and ericaceous plants, blueberries and that

11 family are acid-loving plants. And this is back

12 to Emily Oakley's question.

13 How do you get the pH down low enough,

14 whether it's in a container or in the soil, so

15 that the blueberries are healthy? I know in

16 Pennsylvania, that would be a pH within the range

17 or 4 to 5, 5 or so.

18 MR. JUSTUS: Yeah, the ideal --

19 MR. MORTENSEN: Very acidic.

20 MR. JUSTUS: Yeah. The ideal pH range

21 for blueberries is 4.5 to 5.5.

22 MR. MORTENSEN: Okay.
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1 MR. JUSTUS: And that's basically

2 their ideal range.

3 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

4 MR. JUSTUS: And they're ammonia5 loving plants. They're iron-inefficient plants. 

6 So if you're not in that pH range, you run into

7 issues very quickly.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: Right.

9 MR. JUSTUS: And so that was one of

10 the reasons to go with containers is because peat

11 moss has got a natural pH of 3.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: Right.

13 MR. JUSTUS: And so, basically we're

14 going to start with a soil that's already down

15 into the -- you know, that's just part of, you

16 know, working your soil and how you're going to

17 amend it. We're going to mix the soil to the

18 ideal pH to start them off. That made a huge

19 difference to the plant. It was just -- it was

20 unmistakable.

21 And so, and then we only use, of

22 course, organically approved methods.
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: Right.

2 MR. JUSTUS: With a big enough farm, a

3 grower is going to have a sulfur burner. And

4 then for smaller growers, a lot of them will use

5 something like citric acid.

6 And then we also we get natural

7 acidification from the microbial action in the

8 root zone, especially from the ammonia uptake

9 from the plant.

10 MR. MORTENSEN: So when you were

11 saying that the soil-based blueberry growers use

12 a lot of inputs, amendments and things in their

13 soil, part of it is to actually manipulate the

14 soil so that it resembles an acid environment in

15 an otherwise non-acid environment. Is that true?

16 MR. JUSTUS: Yeah. So in soil,

17 they'll also use a lot of elemental sulfur. A

18 lot. You know, there's a standard curve where

19 you get a holding capacity of soil of how much

20 sulfur you put in there. And then they'll also

21 do a lot of organic amendments.

22 So they were kind of making their own
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1 container. They were just really the bed they

2 were manipulating more. So a lot of elemental

3 sulfur, a lot of organic matter, compost, pine

4 bark, things like that. And then really the root

5 zone stays in that area when you get the old

6 plant out.

7 MR. MORTENSEN: Yeah.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you very

9 much. Thank you, Ian, for your time.

10 MS. JUSTUS: Thank you so much as

11 well.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you to the Board

13 for your questions.

14 We made it to the end. It's only

15 7:20. Trick or treating is early. Just don't

16 stay out too late, because we start tomorrow

17 bright and early at 8:30.

18 So we're in recess till then. Thank

19 you, everybody.

20 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

21 went off the record at 7:22 p.m.)

22
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106:11 149:12 189:11

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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beneath 253:3 304:7

beneficial 447:10,20

448:7 452:11

beneficials 250:14,21

benefit 38:2,8 98:6

130:3 233:11 327:9

387:5 421:17 489:11

benefits 23:10 32:2

98:10 142:1,11 271:6

312:20 333:9 372:19

benzene 212:15

Berkebile 2:11 293:14

392:5 396:6,10,11

399:11 400:5,12

401:1

Berkeley 9:14

berries 310:20 403:8

405:4

berry 474:8,22 475:14

Besancon 2:12 377:16

377:18 379:20 380:13

381:8,11,14

Bessencon 374:10

best 29:20 30:14 140:4

141:20 163:16 172:3

201:16 202:2 265:10

291:14 292:2 293:10

386:10 422:4 449:16

Betsy 73:9

better 23:11,14 35:17

36:9 51:19 52:2 55:6

67:11 93:15 103:4

146:16 216:14 247:18

247:18 257:22 309:11

311:15 312:9,9 339:2

340:3 411:17,19

433:20 454:11 492:2

beyond 93:17 271:10

271:11 335:13

Biannual 12:8

BIEC 112:3,14 140:11

Biernbaum 488:2,12

big 40:1 59:11,21 63:18

65:8 154:14 169:10

169:14 180:6 221:16

241:19 250:9 269:20

275:8 299:10 305:9

312:21 318:5 355:1

355:13 360:12 392:18

452:22 459:20 467:11

467:13 481:19 485:7

486:6 500:2

bigger 473:15

biggest 153:9 327:6

449:17

Bill 34:3 39:8
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

507

billion 188:17 343:9,10

343:11,20 452:16

453:3

binder 12:10

bins 232:5

Bio 146:5

bio- 349:9

bio-compost 451:17

biobased 216:9

biodegradable 216:8

biodiverse 408:9

biodiversity 236:13

247:4 254:13,17

255:1,3,10 270:22

271:18,22 273:9

295:15,16 299:5

301:17 308:13 408:6

429:3 483:9

biodynamic 283:4

285:17 286:11,13,14

286:17,20,22 288:10

288:17,18

biodynamically 321:17

biological 243:13,19

250:13 429:3,4

452:17

biologically 330:18

332:18

biology 106:18 243:15

245:13,21 252:16,19

311:2 349:19 393:14

452:4,8 454:20

bioponic 311:1

bioreaction 467:10

bioreactor 471:17

biosphere 283:20

284:12

biotechnology 196:14

biotic 341:15

bison 402:6

bisphenol 214:5

bit 13:16 31:17 70:11

81:18 87:16 101:12

107:21 108:14,22

110:3 118:9,16 119:7

170:5 184:9 192:5

220:6 244:11 249:9

250:8 254:22 265:14

269:13 305:12 317:14

329:8 351:2 364:5

404:2,9 406:18

423:12 424:5 445:17

451:1 468:2 497:6

bituminous 229:17

blanket 220:10

blanketed 461:7

blemish-free 404:21

408:20

blend 312:22 400:4

496:11

blended 228:20

blew 417:17

blind 394:1

block 310:11

Blockchain 160:12

161:1,11 164:15

165:1,2

Blockchains 161:15

Blom 2:12 268:6 273:20

273:22,22 277:8

278:5 279:4 280:11

281:2,21 282:10,15

blood 411:9 424:4

426:2,6

blue 3:10 112:19

270:16 283:9 380:1

427:9

blueberries 321:12

447:4,16,17 490:2,3,8

491:2,5,6,15 493:13

498:9,10,15,21

blueberry 479:13,13,17

480:2,21 483:1,14

492:19 497:2 500:11

blunt 93:17,22

board's 22:2 216:11

476:9

boards 376:16 476:17

bodies 140:7 143:15

402:14

boggling 360:22

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191:19 196:3 197:18

405:1

border 2:14 28:6 31:22

43:9,10,11 44:20,21

105:20 106:13 110:5

112:2 114:2 118:2

119:19 121:5 129:17

137:17 138:5 140:9

140:11 147:1,5

150:15 155:12 168:1

196:9,10

borders 198:9,10

born 283:7

borrow 381:17

Boston 389:6

bottom 267:16

bought 177:21

boundaries 272:7

bovines 234:7

box 75:19 112:19

146:22 147:1,20

183:18 222:12

boxes 118:12

boy 21:12

BPA 214:5

Bradman 1:14 9:13,13

192:11 233:19 259:17

305:20 306:3,21

308:6 424:11,15

425:13 426:10,16

427:3 455:19 466:16

466:21 467:20 468:15

469:21 495:19 497:14

brain 362:2

bran 423:5,6

branch 3:8 28:1 389:6

brand 373:4 378:12,14

378:17,18,20 379:3,5

379:15 380:9 411:6

421:12

brands 377:19,19

378:13

Brazil 149:18

break 92:1 100:22

103:7 177:14 215:12

325:12 487:2

breakdown 146:4

496:20

breakdownable 486:16

breaking 23:17

breaks 488:9

Brewery 103:3

bridge 179:16

brief 7:19 8:4 91:20

92:2 164:14 192:11

325:12 492:7,8

493:10 495:17

briefly 7:18 136:16

196:12 397:16 472:16

bright 501:17

Brines 2:3 18:19 206:14

206:15 220:20 221:7

221:15 222:22

Brines' 224:3

bring 62:10,15 94:17

104:22 146:20 151:21

155:13 194:17 232:2

262:21 269:12,17

273:6 328:6 339:21

367:8 369:2 423:3

425:17 462:8

bringing 60:20 124:15

155:17 201:9 208:14

466:17

brings 276:1

Briones 1:15 9:5,5,8

196:12 400:19

British 283:16

broad 115:13 145:11

173:12 247:6 454:6

broader 106:21 130:20

131:15 185:4 247:3

broadly 477:18

broker 118:13 120:6

122:11 135:16 152:1

152:1 187:15 195:6,8

202:17,19

brokers 122:6 130:9

132:17 194:2 195:3

bromide 151:15

Bronner's 380:1

Brook 10:6

Brookhaven 10:7

brothers 314:1

brought 6:21 102:4

211:7 310:7 326:8

327:15 344:4 432:9

brown 71:21 72:1

230:17

Brown's 72:2

Brownback 2:13 389:2

392:5,7,8 395:4,18

BRS 146:5 153:15

196:16,19

Bruce 16:7 91:10,11

Brussels 391:10

bud 429:15

buffer 454:11

bugs 34:16 170:9

Buie 1:13 10:6,6 12:6,7

12:12

build 55:5 107:22

109:12 110:13 111:21

112:9 115:17 116:5

126:3,10,11,13,20

168:16 169:14 194:5

195:8 271:22 286:3

349:18 453:10

building 111:12 121:13

154:6 159:5 271:18

302:20 330:22 443:20

built 36:19 37:7 55:22

64:13 69:19 108:10

109:3 113:19 122:3

126:21 127:16 167:13

186:13 411:6

bulk 180:7 230:15

232:14 246:10 249:21

bullet 159:21

bunch 380:3

burden 158:13

burn 311:20 331:16

burner 500:3

bus 483:15
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

508

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111:9 119:11 201:6

219:10 226:1 228:1

256:8 268:10 379:6

389:20 390:14 429:16

449:4 453:11 470:2

businesses 33:20 34:1

37:1 96:22 159:16

304:22 459:20

butchered 226:9 458:4

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410:19,19 415:14

473:14

buyer 38:13,16 60:20

177:21

buyers 27:5 36:7 60:17

399:4

buying 276:12 307:14

372:5 390:11 426:1

buzzer 225:1

bypass 316:2 479:6

bypasses 315:4

C

C 1:8 4:1 400:4

C2F 309:10

cache 361:18

CACS 8:14

CACS's 290:5

Cal-Organic 313:17

314:7

calculated 236:5

California 148:8,10

251:12 315:11 321:14

476:19 481:21 491:7

491:19

call 4:2 18:13 28:1

110:12 116:13 118:7

122:10 123:14 131:15

133:10,18 134:3

137:17 141:18 155:3

158:6 170:8,14 243:4

271:3 272:5 281:2

298:16 317:10 357:8

405:21 451:21 456:12

467:9 468:7

called 16:11,14 34:13

39:13 43:14 44:1

52:15 69:22 74:18

88:1,10,17 110:2

112:2 115:18 116:17

119:22 124:5 156:12

158:3 160:11 182:20

241:16 243:2 284:2

309:19 331:18 347:4

349:4 449:5 456:21

494:16

calling 272:4 331:6

332:8 456:9,19

calls 120:10 269:5,6

campaign 470:3

candidate 371:12

candidates 70:14

candy 478:12

capabilities 484:3

capability 38:20 65:17

114:2 128:12,13

159:14

capacity 45:10 105:15

188:19 341:22 342:12

344:18,20 454:12

481:18 482:3,5

500:19

capital 332:3

capitalize 110:20

captured 403:10

captures 46:21

carbon 272:17,22 277:3

277:6,8,14,19 349:16

385:16 386:5,9,10,12

386:15,16,19 393:12

408:7 445:5,7,8,9

446:3,5 466:14

470:22 472:16 473:3

473:12,14,15,19

486:15

carbon-based 237:18

carbonaceous 229:18

care 7:22 72:10 146:5

153:15 169:20 189:15

244:3 247:2 253:6

374:20

career 88:1,5,9 355:4

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298:17 356:11

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caring 359:4

carrageenan 437:8,20

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367:10

carry 106:2

carrying 145:15 320:22

344:18

cars 231:22

carving 138:19

case 86:19 111:2 118:3

118:17 124:8 127:12

129:9 187:7 189:20

190:13 193:1 241:7

247:11 331:17 391:5

422:21 485:12 494:20

497:5

caseload 130:3

cases 23:15 127:16

128:10 187:14 479:11

cash 364:1

cashing 460:5

cast 298:20 299:12

CATAIR 182:21 183:2

catching 193:10

categories 88:19

115:14 296:14,18

categorizes 118:14

cattle 359:5 450:2

caught 184:2 228:17

cause 94:6 187:16

470:7 476:22

caused 286:14

causes 475:20

caveat 216:5

CBP 28:6 31:22 43:10

43:13 44:14,22 45:1,6

45:9,13,16,17 46:6

47:9 49:4,6 108:9

109:22 119:14 120:22

121:6,10,11 123:7,13

123:18 125:14,20

126:22 137:18,19

142:15 152:20 153:3

153:4 156:14 159:6,8

160:2 167:18,20

169:12 171:5 172:18

172:20,21 173:19

174:20,22 176:16,16

182:22 183:3 187:13

187:19 190:22 195:16

202:13

CBP's 121:17 125:16

176:8

CCOF 252:10

CD 121:10,10

CDC 135:13

CDP 135:18

celebrate 36:20

cell 454:14 455:3

cellulose 214:1

CEMS 124:5,18,18

125:10 126:2 127:16

176:16 193:18

Censky 15:17

center 9:15 134:18

149:10 155:4 251:14

254:12 406:5 463:8

centered 302:18 468:19

494:13

centers 441:20

central 270:3,12

centralized 110:11

124:21

century 340:12

certain 38:13,14 58:14

80:6 104:6 117:18

138:3 152:7,11 161:8

161:11 170:10 171:15

174:11 181:18,19

186:13 187:9 243:18

349:6 404:7 410:10

417:12 438:21,22

448:12 454:16

certainly 108:4 121:21

128:22 198:16 382:7

439:3

certifiable 376:6

certificate 37:9,20 38:4

38:6,16 39:1 42:19,22

43:3 44:4 46:8 58:17

58:21 125:8 152:9

158:7,9 159:10,14

177:19 178:1 198:14

203:4 222:20,21

certificates 25:5 31:20

37:10,16,22 38:1,11

38:18 39:18 43:5,22

45:2,12,18 46:1,11,15

46:20,21 56:21 68:5

120:12 121:2 122:1

154:11 157:19,20,21

158:2,15 159:11

160:5 174:14,20

175:6 177:15,21

197:7,9 198:3 202:6

certification 27:1 30:2

35:8 38:4 62:5 161:20

179:6 191:4 200:7,12

201:18 203:3 253:3

257:12 289:22 291:1

303:13 316:4 345:11

345:18 346:16 353:18

364:22 376:3 442:18

443:16 463:11 464:20

477:22

certifications 154:10

191:7

certified 2:11 3:11

10:13 11:14 22:12,13

33:19 37:21 38:22

43:8 48:4 69:16 72:14

72:15 92:10 124:12

172:9 199:6,7,16

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204:13,19 228:2

235:21 243:5,12

256:5 259:9,12

280:13 282:21 290:1

297:1 310:4 315:12

325:7 335:21 336:16

339:3 348:10,11
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

509

352:17 354:17 376:18

377:8 382:15 392:10

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418:13 427:14 450:5

458:12,16 459:2,12

462:3

certifier 11:6 28:1 29:12

30:4,21 31:2,3 32:17

33:6 35:13 36:17

38:15,19 39:2 43:2

50:15 54:9 57:9 60:19

62:3,11 65:11 77:2

158:13 161:9 181:11

181:12,14 198:20

200:14,20 291:22

355:5,19 372:21,22

373:10 374:1,3,6

447:7

certifier's 56:22 58:19

290:2

certifiers 24:22 25:18

26:16,22 27:1,16,21

28:21 29:2,4,18,21

30:15 32:7 34:19

35:13 36:17,20,21

37:3,11,15,19 39:5

44:19 50:3 53:15

54:11 56:13 59:10

60:12 61:11 65:2 66:2

68:13,17 75:14 78:15

79:6,12 97:14 104:17

158:20 160:13 161:22

163:4,9,17,21 164:2,4

164:8 165:13,17

178:7,8,12 179:7

182:3,7 196:7,7 197:7

197:8,19 198:2

205:18 274:5 292:13

292:19 295:4,18

355:17 356:15 374:5

384:17 401:18 402:13

402:19 464:5

certifies 290:3 396:13

certify 200:19 324:22

336:14 346:8 355:17

355:20 389:9

certifying 189:1 460:4

cetera 66:17,17 80:2

CFR 57:1 146:1,2,4

chain 16:22 26:10

38:10 160:11,14,17

160:19 161:5,10,12

164:6,9,17,19 177:13

178:13 198:1 200:8

202:8 290:7 404:20

chains 29:1 164:7

165:15

chair 1:12,12 6:7 8:4

10:16,17,20 11:12,15

12:2,7,12 166:8 227:6

290:2 359:13 388:5

427:10

Chairman 1:10 107:16

167:11 273:17,19

276:20 277:20 278:20

280:4 282:5,16 285:5

286:5 287:4 289:17

293:6,17 294:7 295:1

295:5 297:18 298:13

300:19,21 304:14

305:5,19 306:1

308:17 312:3,11

313:7 316:10 317:12

318:14 320:14 321:21

324:12,17 325:10

328:11,13 329:7,17

332:21 333:18 334:4

334:6 337:12 338:6

338:20 339:11 342:16

344:21 347:14 350:11

350:15 352:13 354:9

354:11 357:15,18,20

359:9 360:1,7 363:4

363:12,20 366:11

367:1,21 369:20

371:17,20 373:21

374:9 377:10,13

379:16 380:7 381:2,9

381:12 382:3 385:12

386:21 387:18 389:1

389:5 392:3

challenge 193:5 251:1

299:10 331:22 332:5

382:21 476:10 480:17

485:7 486:6 491:10

496:22

challenged 189:4

challenges 93:8 340:1

349:7,21 351:20

475:9 490:20 491:1

491:13

challenging 443:5

491:6

champions 442:6

chance 140:15,18

193:11 282:4 313:2

354:19 357:6 462:1

change 21:6 35:14 79:3

112:1,12 139:17

145:8 173:9 175:7,8

177:5,6 179:14,22

188:10 195:11 203:20

204:4,22 219:18

280:22 297:15 331:10

331:14 337:6,7 349:9

349:16 352:3 366:19

368:8 402:12 414:15

418:5 454:13 475:16

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192:21 257:5 300:10

380:21 463:16

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112:10,17 139:14,16

139:20 140:18 144:21

144:21 161:13 170:10

180:14 217:7 252:1

253:14 293:1 296:5

297:4 340:10 341:5

454:18,19

changing 336:11

496:16

channel 467:18

chapter 428:7

character 226:16

449:17

characteristics 252:13

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107:4 184:3 411:18

Charlotte 3:13 322:7

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441:4

chart 144:19 145:9

chart's 145:8

cheap 335:10

check 45:2 135:14

184:17 197:9

checked 119:18

checking 185:3

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78:22 79:3

checkoff 203:17,20

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chemical 149:18

151:14 186:10 230:3

284:3 417:21 494:1

chemicals 247:13

356:22 362:21 402:14

417:5,13 421:7 450:1

Chemistry 362:2

Chesapeake 258:5,6,7

260:11 261:16,19

262:2

chicken 246:7 248:4

267:11 413:15 414:1

414:3

chicory 275:21

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385:4,7 390:13

children's 464:2

Chilean 443:1

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Chipotle 380:14

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chlorite 21:13 212:14

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474:9

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338:8

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choosing 337:10

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437:8

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circle 146:14 269:19

270:16

circles 383:4

circulating 364:11

452:14

circumstances 340:2,3

circumstantial 77:18

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191:3

cisgenesis 435:3

cite 362:13

citizens 341:19

citrate 210:7,8 212:14

221:1

citric 500:5

citrus 116:22 117:16

148:8,9

civil 24:5,14 26:17

355:4

civilization 284:22

claim 386:4

claiming 302:3

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clarification 226:2

263:7,20 293:2

clarify 53:22 64:5

152:13 241:8 251:21

252:4 292:1,13

clarifying 396:18 398:3

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CLAs 77:12

class 328:2

classification 187:9

188:1 211:4 214:18

368:9,18,21 369:3

classified 97:7 214:20

215:2 296:18 442:16

classify 214:21 368:14

Claus 231:14

clause 373:16

Clavibacter 318:8

clay 232:10

clean 349:11 375:7

406:3 412:13 469:14
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

510

cleaned 423:1

cleaner 259:11 330:20

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129:12 192:20 193:4

195:15 196:2 226:19

271:14 272:6 278:6

356:10 383:11 388:8

390:12 400:8 405:21

431:10 449:8 487:6

494:6

clearance 21:16 82:2,4

82:6 115:20

cleared 125:15,16,18

126:1 449:13

clearly 129:13,15 166:3

294:14 297:6 385:20

387:14 461:9 477:20

click 154:19,21

Clif 10:19

climate 261:10 277:11

297:15 331:10,14

349:9,16 352:3

402:12 491:19 492:3

climates 341:3

clippings 485:3,4

clock 222:11

close 14:5 32:9 51:6

59:13 136:20 141:15

153:7 157:8 166:4

192:19 212:19 276:9

309:5 420:21 439:7

close-minded 350:3

closed 128:9 250:19

317:8

closed-loop 303:9

closely 113:15 439:2

481:4 496:14

closer 194:22 358:7

406:4

closing 58:22 127:12

424:16

cloth 483:18 484:7

485:6

cloudy 407:16

clout 459:13

clover 413:14

Club 347:4

clue 321:10

Co-director 354:16

co-founder 322:7

coal 229:11,13 230:2

473:7

coal- 230:10

Coalition 239:6,7

coals 229:17 230:1,2,17

coast 321:2

coattails 316:7 468:13

coco 302:9 310:11

316:18 446:1

coconut 388:10 487:10

code 38:5 180:10

183:17,22 187:15,16

187:20,22 253:4

codes 183:13

coined 269:18

coir 302:10 310:11

388:10,19 446:2

452:20 485:20 487:10

490:18 496:11

cold 151:16

Coleman 323:21 332:17

coli 465:2

coliform 465:2

collaborate 45:13

collaborative 48:21

87:7

collapse 453:8

collapsed 397:15

colleague 143:21 156:4

221:12 364:12 445:19

colleagues 83:21 97:1

107:19 138:10,10

166:9,10 205:15

289:14 352:22

collect 267:17

collected 147:14

267:22

collecting 197:1 266:2

collection 24:2

collections 115:12

collectively 283:13

College 10:4 106:16

Collier 2:14 105:19,21

109:22 130:19 131:4

170:4 199:20

Collins 2:15 416:7

420:10,13,13 422:14

422:17 423:16 424:9

425:2,21 426:14,18

collusion 356:15

Colorado 9:22 74:1

334:11 404:17,18

407:19

colored 224:22

combating 304:6

combination 203:6

279:2

combining 438:15

come 60:7 74:6 75:1

84:20 86:19 88:14

89:6 92:17 93:1,10

144:9,12 149:14,21

150:7 151:20 160:8

169:2 180:5 181:10

181:11,13 183:15

185:17 206:10 210:5

239:1 241:1 253:18

271:4 280:2 312:8

321:20 322:18 334:19

343:16 344:3 353:13

361:21 370:12 376:7

392:19 393:15 402:15

402:17 407:15 410:13

447:8 452:19 456:13

468:8 471:16 481:14

497:1

comes 44:1 46:13

114:3 143:5 163:4

254:18 261:3 279:4,6

285:16 299:15 300:7

310:4 321:4 334:15

361:4,5 365:12

459:19 471:18 482:16

485:21

comfortable 143:7

coming 27:19 45:15

61:15 66:16 68:20

75:2 84:4 94:5 100:16

113:4 117:21 120:9

122:18 128:8 129:3

138:2 154:1 159:19

173:18 176:18 180:9

181:16 184:15 185:2

189:9 210:1,14

211:15 219:5 223:14

240:7 244:6 267:16

278:18 288:11 320:10

325:6 365:6 426:5

457:10

comingling 200:11

commands 327:11

comment 8:10,13 15:5

19:22 20:1,3 21:3

30:16 75:8 81:13 82:7

83:18 85:4,6,7,20

86:16 96:2 98:20

181:8 200:4,4 224:8,8

224:15,17,21 226:3

227:8 235:17 251:20

260:10 274:6,11

293:5 294:8 299:14

307:8 309:10 337:21

348:6 350:17 360:22

382:14 396:21 397:4

397:16 398:19 401:11

419:1 441:13 452:5

474:16 479:2

commented 21:2

commenter 226:6,17

298:22 462:16

commenters 100:11

101:6 225:10 226:14

246:19 297:20 416:9

commenters' 226:5

commenting 290:5

293:15 392:16 396:17

471:7

comments 4:18 12:10

14:12 15:3,7 20:7,14

20:17 81:13 91:18

96:7,8 199:7 225:20

227:4 228:4 229:9

231:5 238:4 259:16

260:11 263:9 272:13

294:9 298:5,6 307:2

313:15 322:1,13

337:15,17 347:17

350:19 358:4,20

359:22 364:18 368:6

368:7 369:6 391:20

396:14 398:3,16

407:7 416:20 427:20

436:9 438:15 441:16

444:18

commerce 138:17

253:5

commercial 43:15

110:3 132:7,10

150:10 227:20 229:20

450:5

commercially 252:5

371:15

Commission 276:7

279:16 281:16

commitment 33:1

96:15,19 223:2

251:18 314:22 315:2

323:15,15 382:12

committed 13:8 15:10

52:1,3

committee 10:17 11:11

11:12,15 31:15 80:18

90:8,10 97:9 140:9,13

227:19,20 235:17

237:3 239:5 251:13

253:21 271:12 320:19

324:15 365:1 427:12

432:7

Committee's 348:6

committees 98:22

commodities 27:18

105:5 109:2 114:14

114:17 117:6 118:6

118:15,18,20 122:14

127:1,3,4 153:1

180:10 182:4 189:6

191:1 193:1,22 204:6

252:22

commodity 38:14 115:3

116:21 127:4 129:6

149:4,6,14 150:6
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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151:20,21 152:7,10

161:8 182:7 187:9,11

188:1 203:5,16

common 94:6 111:15

126:19 136:21 137:8

187:7 326:16 331:11

331:19

communicate 31:21

194:7

communication 130:8

community 13:9 14:12

15:10 19:21 49:19

92:17 94:3,15,17

96:20 105:2 106:22

110:12 111:16 132:17

133:13,16 140:7,14

141:12,15 143:3

163:2 164:16 167:8

205:10 223:13,13

287:14 327:7 334:14

341:15,18 342:9

369:18 375:2,4

382:12 410:12

companies 194:10

278:11 280:12 381:7

401:15 429:16

company 2:21 10:19

95:11 253:3 256:20

264:8 314:21 401:22

449:5

company's 378:13

comparable 439:11

461:7

comparative 387:6

compare 236:18

compared 169:12

187:10 327:10 353:1

353:3

compares 42:7 272:17

272:22

comparing 260:16

comparison 42:11

277:16,19

compatriots 410:15

compelling 367:15

378:7

compete 128:20 462:6

competing 168:8

391:13

competition 429:18

competitive 98:13

325:5

complaint 23:18 71:4

71:12 72:19

complaints 23:3,5,16

24:9,11 27:3 70:20,21

71:19 355:3

complement 169:3

complementary 168:9

complete 27:1 36:10

40:21 56:16 58:19

132:12 165:8 207:4

212:11 215:16,20

216:19 222:18

completed 23:18 58:4

133:19 167:17 212:3

212:19 217:20 291:14

416:13

completely 243:1 302:3

305:13 308:10 323:1

336:12 390:8 453:22

completing 6:16 220:1

completion 137:4

167:15 170:20

complex 27:10 28:22

113:1 164:7 165:12

165:16 166:4 283:19

346:5 386:17 462:12

480:13

complexes 361:2

complexity 26:10

108:15 157:4 174:19

476:10 480:11

compliance 22:9 23:14

23:22 27:20 31:5

32:19 33:5 44:19 63:2

73:9 74:2,3,18 75:19

76:2 111:7 116:3

124:6 127:11 128:10

129:11,20 130:3,5

147:20 180:15 187:5

195:12 198:21 204:11

291:20 294:19

compliant 27:7 195:6

195:19 294:20 448:13

482:13

complicated 245:16

311:10 312:18 365:16

comply 29:22 193:12

238:6,8 295:19 428:8

428:20 448:17 475:4

component 52:17

247:8 410:7

components 61:9

109:9 451:22 465:14

486:22

composition 487:14

compost 2:21 228:19

245:11 250:10 259:19

263:14,19 266:22

311:2,4,13 312:22

314:14 316:18,20,22

319:22 370:5,20,21

371:1 388:20 412:14

413:6,15,21 423:3,3

425:15 449:5 450:4

451:19,20,20 452:5

452:14 453:22 454:3

455:15,20 480:6

483:21 485:17 486:14

486:18 487:9,13,18

487:19 488:1,14

496:2,12 497:12,15

497:16 498:1,5 501:3

composted 248:4 414:1

485:20,21

composting 336:4

497:11

composts 424:21

496:19

compounds 82:18

comprehensive 60:10

79:18

comprehensively

184:20

comprised 111:19

compromise 179:8

305:7,9,9,11,16

306:16,17 319:12

328:21 329:4,6 334:2

366:14 382:1,1

395:20 406:19 411:4

415:1,8 420:3 424:19

461:20

compromising 334:20

computer 115:19

189:12

computers 100:13

224:12

conceiving 126:8

concentrated 408:15

concentrating 323:1

concentric 269:19

concept 32:4 61:18

64:14 65:3 126:9

173:18,22 199:17,21

301:21 330:15 334:13

concepts 39:19 64:12

162:10 199:11

concern 66:14,16 75:5

77:5 255:2 258:6

287:20 371:3 397:7

445:13 461:1 467:13

concerned 74:22

191:18 242:9 287:14

421:6 459:15,17

467:12 469:21

concerning 256:3

358:1

concerns 92:21 140:16

151:2 228:11 234:11

234:17 432:2

conclude 466:2,6

conclusion 74:6 207:5

concurrently 65:16

condition 49:2 202:22

450:20

conditions 150:18

236:11 252:11 444:3

477:1,21 478:4,5

486:17

conduct 31:3 57:8 59:9

75:3,13 120:11

conducted 27:20 41:16

50:22 52:8 57:13

122:22 141:13 291:21

315:17 362:14 464:22

466:8

conducting 30:8 98:17

151:8

conducts 40:6 47:12

125:7

confidence 191:10

378:19 379:2

confident 298:7

confidential 372:20

373:3

confidently 297:22

confined 335:6

confines 93:4

confining 451:10

confirm 38:3,6 44:19

161:15

confirmation 292:15

confirmed 230:4

conflict 97:5 98:15,16

99:11,14

conflicting 373:18

conflicts 98:8 99:1,7

476:12 478:2

confounding 389:17,18

confuse 383:16 411:5

confused 393:21

437:16 489:8

confusing 229:10 393:7

422:4

confusion 272:11 293:3

307:21 460:1 469:22

congratulations 37:14

392:20

Congress 110:6 139:17

173:7

conjugated 74:15

connect 36:7 158:11

161:3

connected 279:12

332:18 384:11

connection 275:19

connections 34:17

conquerors 341:17

CONSCIOUS 328:15

consensus 12:14 137:7
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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139:13

consequences 321:18

conservation 9:16

254:17 295:17 298:12

389:12 394:14 463:10

conservationists 97:15

conserve 297:9

conserving 276:5

consider 39:1 93:1

157:12 163:11 164:12

246:20 254:13 255:8

261:5 268:18 281:16

295:15 342:10 364:17

401:21 403:13 430:1

451:4

consideration 162:22

208:15 210:20 211:8

213:12 218:19 276:13

367:19 391:20 444:18

considered 20:22 22:20

98:17 99:6 129:16

207:2 210:22 262:2

296:11 388:11,14,15

431:5,9 464:4,6

472:12

considering 31:4 192:1

331:6 436:8 442:20

consistency 24:3 369:3

consistent 306:12

359:6 440:16

consistently 129:5

220:1

consists 227:17 232:7

consortium 280:12

constant 250:22

constituency 307:3

constituents 298:10

constraints 71:3 138:8

construct 321:15

constructive 130:12

consultation 431:17,19

474:21

consulted 431:21 464:9

consulting 3:10 268:9

269:11 361:10

consumer 3:13 232:18

242:7 246:22 247:7

249:11 268:12,17

272:11 314:8 359:6

378:19 407:14 433:12

433:13 434:3,7,20

436:11,16,18 461:6

469:22

Consumer/Public 11:1

consumers 26:7 94:18

97:16 129:2 148:21

242:8 244:17 246:19

247:1 253:6 269:3

272:5,14 276:11

278:2 279:2,20

307:13 336:21 356:19

361:21 362:9 375:5

375:16 376:4,7 379:1

407:7,11 408:14

421:17 429:17 433:15

434:9,10,21 435:12

436:12 440:9,17

442:2 459:11,22

460:2 462:9 463:18

consumption 94:8

190:11

contact 79:20 120:7

135:18,20 158:14

233:3

contacting 23:9

contain 56:22 237:21

263:13 376:22 428:1

contained 400:3

container 47:13 235:18

235:20 236:3 237:4

237:10,12 238:16

241:7 252:9,17 256:4

257:5,10 259:13

263:11 265:13 267:12

267:20 274:8 281:19

291:19 302:2,13

303:10,12,20 305:1

305:15 310:1,6,7,8

312:21 315:3 319:18

325:1 331:7,18

332:10 333:22 338:12

338:18 348:7,19

357:10 366:15 383:15

385:6,18 386:14

388:4 393:19 415:10

415:11 424:19 425:10

436:7 441:14,16

442:8,12,14 443:11

443:22 444:5 445:22

447:12 448:6 450:4

451:5 454:1 456:4,6,9

456:12,13 474:16

475:1,5,7 477:8

478:17 479:13 480:22

481:8 485:18 486:12

489:11,16 492:10,15

497:17,21 498:14

501:1

container's 267:18

container-growing

313:14

container-grown

493:18,18

containerized 316:1

321:12

containers 118:12

235:15 263:11 264:12

264:20 265:9,22

267:15,20 282:8

291:17 294:20 304:17

304:18 312:14 324:3

328:16 333:3 335:5

356:18,18 395:16

415:1,8 420:3 424:22

447:22 451:3 461:19

461:20 479:10 483:21

487:8 489:9,11

495:21 497:15 499:10

contaminated 273:12

288:12,16

contamination 287:15

476:2

contemplate 163:15

contemplates 111:11

126:5

contemporary 284:3

content 157:14 317:19

362:11 367:18 377:2

387:7 452:9

contents 372:8

context 22:21 26:4 47:3

53:8 268:18

contexts 306:10

continual 137:9 402:17

404:15 406:8 495:14

continue 8:12 14:14

16:22 24:8,16 26:7

28:18 29:9 31:14

33:16 34:16,21 58:15

59:6,8 65:16 73:16

78:22 92:18 93:3

95:19 101:9 139:12

139:19 142:21,22

190:12 191:21 237:16

244:2 276:12 304:12

304:22 331:16 369:17

394:16 403:19

continued 22:17 368:20

continues 55:16 79:2

94:17 111:21 138:21

140:21 195:8 343:18

344:2

continuing 30:20 31:3

39:4 65:11,12,13

76:18 95:22 140:20

157:13,16 190:8

419:22

continuity 89:18

continuous 52:18

270:15,19 271:12

continuum 144:15

146:9

contract 52:10 174:7

219:11,12,15,19

220:3,9,17,19 221:1,2

221:8 404:21

contracting 218:3

223:17

contractor's 126:18

contractors 126:18

167:19 168:12 220:17

221:5,5,9

contracts 219:9 221:4

373:16

contrary 275:2,13

343:1 359:3

contribute 261:12

contributing 260:14,21

261:6

contributions 130:16

contributor 262:2

control 26:11,13,19

28:16 30:13 35:18

75:12 104:16 114:1

134:18 172:6 211:20

230:7 250:13 257:21

318:5 358:22 417:20

421:15 461:10 493:3

493:22 498:3

controlled 273:13

464:14

controlling 260:18

controls 41:3,12

controversial 247:20

convene 91:14

convention 493:21

conventional 74:16

183:17 191:2 261:2,6

274:15 277:22 278:8

278:16 310:12 312:1

314:21 383:4 384:1,3

384:22 386:5 471:12

474:22 482:17 493:12

493:17 494:6,7,9

495:8

conventionally 261:21

conventionally-crop...

314:9

conversation 64:21

83:15 173:2 174:9

175:3 240:10 370:11

378:7

conversations 69:17

94:1 100:13 172:18

174:3 298:17 329:21

330:2

Conversely 229:22

conversion 274:18

296:3 297:3

convert 253:17 278:7

converted 299:22

conveyed 292:19
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convince 274:11

cooperation 240:12

cooperatives 361:11

coordination 111:5

copies 120:15

core 32:11 133:3,19

167:16,18 170:14,21

171:2 196:20 266:22

408:12,22,22 444:1

corn 104:6 161:8,12

177:16,18 189:8

261:22 288:11,16,18

418:14

Cornucopia 2:15,17 3:3

330:8 334:10 336:19

354:16 358:2 359:13

corporate 307:4 331:14

332:1 355:22 421:14

Corporation 231:13

corporations 460:5

corps 89:17 91:2,3

correct 55:3 85:14

87:11 119:7 194:7

196:4,6 203:11 231:2

237:10 238:20 241:10

248:5,9 285:12 295:5

343:4 366:8 373:15

388:15,21 396:8

407:10 412:2 489:5

corrected 204:2

corrections 12:10

corrective 54:2,4,6,14

54:16,20 55:4 56:1

57:7 59:5

correctly 85:1 193:17

255:5 439:18

corrupt 355:9

corruption 354:20

cost 38:3 174:6 233:12

404:16 481:14

Costa 322:20

costs 111:8 246:2,3

459:5

Council 11:2 112:3

140:12 168:2

Counsel 176:4 177:9

count 22:12 410:14

counter 477:15

counties' 466:10

counting 374:18

countless 96:21 223:11

countries 27:16 43:7

45:4 69:1,10,14,18

146:17 164:8 174:11

182:4 198:11 323:4

361:6,7

countries' 41:8 114:5

country 42:6 110:9

111:1 112:22 113:8

116:10 125:2 129:4

134:8 138:2 147:19

149:4 150:20 151:4

152:20 174:17 181:19

182:8 190:10 203:5

242:15 261:9,14

274:19 282:9 287:8

287:18 322:11 355:16

415:21 463:13

country's 42:8 466:10

counts 68:15 160:16

County 473:11

couple 13:22 18:4

64:10 108:6 112:10

133:1 157:22 180:14

188:3 200:17 220:20

223:6 224:9 317:7

323:2 357:17 450:9

450:10 451:12 493:22

coupled 283:22

couriered 121:11

course 18:21 108:5

164:22 168:18 209:12

217:14 222:19 247:6

248:11 311:12 341:10

360:10 496:6 499:22

court 32:14

courteous 100:10

cover 108:7 136:16

144:10,14 145:20

149:20 159:15 218:22

241:19 246:8,9 250:6

250:7 262:4 303:17

314:14 336:3 364:4,6

370:4 418:18 447:9

447:19,22 448:6

478:14 480:20 483:18

484:11,21 485:13

covered 151:18 152:11

155:5 291:6 292:3

360:9,14 423:18

483:17

covers 30:1,4

cow 73:22 426:8

cow's 384:2

cows 74:13 75:2 77:10

77:14 384:6,8,8,11

399:15 417:1,6

craft 321:9,19

crash 164:22

Crawford 2:15 329:19

330:5,5 333:6,11

334:1,5

create 45:1 46:22 98:13

161:2 236:21 249:8

272:7,10 308:10

375:13 402:8 422:6

433:15,17 443:8

460:10 476:22 486:3

created 147:4,10 249:8

303:14 411:12

creates 121:1 301:12

475:8 478:1 485:7

creating 158:1 353:10

460:1 478:4

creation 141:21

creative 468:9

creativity 443:10,19

444:12

credentials 460:3

credibility 410:10

credible 297:17

credit 466:4

Crisantes 2:16 231:7

235:7,10,12 238:8,12

239:4,18 240:16

241:10

crises 349:8

criteria 76:2 87:5

150:12 165:12 204:10

207:6,9,11,15,21

208:3,4,5,10 209:15

209:18 290:21 399:8

criterion 434:19

critical 36:2 51:18

95:13 109:6 129:6

138:19 165:6,10

170:8 173:3 292:17

403:4 435:17

critically 82:21

crop 12:1 190:4,4 208:7

209:1 229:8 236:3

241:19 245:18 248:22

249:21 250:4,5,6,7,13

250:18 255:4 256:2

257:10 258:17 259:4

262:19 275:18 276:3

286:2 303:16 304:15

312:13 314:15 318:18

319:18,20 320:1,2,6

320:10 362:12 364:1

364:2,6 370:4,19

377:3 381:13 391:9

391:10,11 412:6,16

414:17 422:16,18,21

427:18 446:20 447:3

447:5,19 476:15

477:5 478:21 479:15

480:20 495:10

Cropking 327:6

cropping 246:8,10

262:5 314:15 336:3

476:13 477:6 485:13

crops 2:18 8:13 11:11

12:2 105:18 109:11

114:15 115:2 190:8

208:13 210:2 232:21

235:17 237:3 241:19

243:16,20 245:14

250:19 252:21 261:11

262:4 274:6 275:18

287:10,15,16,19,21

289:3,11 303:17

313:20 320:19 324:14

364:5 395:15 411:16

412:21 413:12 414:5

414:9,16 418:18

422:22 428:10 432:7

436:5,6 441:13 445:9

446:16 447:9,22

448:7 454:3 461:18

475:7 476:4 478:14

483:18 484:11 491:11

cross 337:19

cross-communication

142:5

cross-departmental

108:13

cross-production

370:3

crosses 198:9

crossing 120:6

crossroads 326:22

crosstalk 83:8

crushed 361:13

crust 282:14 283:3

284:6,16,16

crutch 229:4

crux 348:6

CS 333:22 415:1,8

420:3

CSA 395:8

CSAEC 3:13

cucumbers 310:19

403:8

cukes 405:4

cultivate 485:11

cultivated 296:8,10

cultivation 274:19,21

cultural 296:16 300:4

300:12

culture 283:12 466:21

467:17

curious 84:6 90:7 167:6

185:15 267:14 276:22

423:11 425:16

current 8:18 22:11

29:17 45:10 57:1

58:18 157:12 164:1

183:21 192:15 204:16

212:6 217:8 220:17

230:22 292:22 320:18

340:2,3 357:14 461:8
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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475:6 477:16 484:22

currently 10:20 11:11

18:9 33:8 43:5 55:13

55:15 56:9 72:14

148:9 154:3,5 171:16

211:16 212:1,8,10

275:8 295:7 310:4

320:16 343:8 376:2

378:22 392:10 395:5

440:1 463:8 487:1

curve 35:12 267:5

425:9 475:21,22

477:6 487:16,16

500:18

curves 478:15 496:21

custody 123:18 129:17

Custom 155:11

customer 23:11 35:17

40:10 155:3 232:13

247:9 408:12 456:14

customers 147:5

315:17 335:22 353:22

361:15 402:1,3,7,15

403:14 406:7 409:1

410:13 411:5,11

421:11 422:4 450:22

454:22

customers' 402:22

customize 37:19

customs 2:14 28:6

31:22 43:9,10 105:20

106:13 110:4 118:9

120:1 121:4 129:17

140:9 150:15,22

151:2

cut 305:21 307:18

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D

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486:10

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383:19

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109:22 119:6 123:15

130:19,22 143:20

155:11 156:2 157:6

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113:22 114:2 115:3

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120:22 121:2,9,11,17

123:1,5,7 124:17

125:9 131:20,20,21

132:5,18 136:9

137:14 141:12 142:4

142:9,9 157:14

158:18,20 162:3,6,7

176:17,18,20 178:12

181:10,13,16 182:5

196:15 197:16 204:18

261:5 269:4 385:21

385:22 386:1 463:15

465:1

database 13:20 22:14

24:19 26:2 32:3 33:18

34:2 37:11 40:22 49:7

64:18 67:5 68:8 69:4

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201:6

databases 203:10

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64:5 165:1 217:4

297:3

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daughter 328:21

Dave 1:16 2:13 10:2

63:8 82:10 83:19 90:3

103:1 184:7 188:7

287:5 300:22 308:18

308:19,21,22 312:3,4

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322:22 350:15 360:7

380:7 394:20 423:8

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446:17 470:21 495:15

498:7

Davey 3:7 313:8 322:2

322:3,5 324:12,17

352:15

David 19:7,9 77:15

313:7

David's 19:9

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313:8,11,11 316:15

317:21 319:3 321:1

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153:8,8 183:9 216:2

266:6 304:6 305:15

318:2,2 326:17 440:6

440:15 476:6

days 92:20 96:12 121:5

153:9 232:2 266:10

269:10 367:6 426:7

de 1:15 9:10,10 184:16

185:3 487:8

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143:5 215:21

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275:8 339:22 380:22

467:11 484:20

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105:3 193:21 205:22

243:11

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328:6

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133:2 141:1 170:16

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317:9 449:22

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429:16

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474:4

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490:17

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428:18

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385:3,5,18 388:21

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237:20 257:5 275:20

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196:22 240:10 293:19

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259:7 298:2 299:1

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300:3 368:17

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270:14 404:6

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371:8
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237:2

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229:9

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37:17 40:7 74:3

105:19 106:5,12,15

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130:4 131:2 134:15

134:21 147:4,10

169:4 190:6 389:8

427:11

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110:19 112:18,20

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depend 168:17 410:14

452:9

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426:17

depending 125:4 135:1

198:11 208:6 248:12

495:10

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484:14

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231:2

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51:16 87:13,17,22

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231:1

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492:11 494:6

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486:17

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135:14 373:1

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191:11 202:4,20

248:3 300:4 476:5

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123:20 209:14 236:11

236:16

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develop 45:12 46:10

49:15 130:10 157:16

316:5 415:21 457:13

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132:11 144:2 214:7

252:4,10 403:16

467:18

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405:1,14 435:21

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65:18 111:20,22

126:2 129:18 132:6

137:9 139:11 140:1

141:10 154:6 158:1

158:17 160:9 167:16

167:18 171:1,3,4,11

177:12 211:12 212:12

213:9 218:3 254:9

315:5 402:12 474:19

474:20 477:5

develops 284:9

devices 101:5 162:4

Devin 95:18

Devon 2:5 18:20

devote 14:10

DFO 5:16 99:12

DHA 355:2,14,20

DHS 130:19

dialog 83:4,22

dialogue 104:20 107:6

192:8 205:9,16

diatomaceous 233:5

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dictionary 69:20

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difference 66:22 71:17

72:8 169:10 242:20

257:20 302:10 307:13

333:2,7 385:16

407:13 413:22 414:4

414:6,12 438:4,5

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265:18,20 267:5

277:17 280:1,2,2

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406:2

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234:12,18 262:18

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directors 111:17

194:16 290:3 330:7

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disappointments

336:19

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disclose 99:7 100:2

225:22 372:15 373:17

disclosed 219:22 220:5

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discourage 67:16

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discreet 317:15

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139:4

discussed 131:13

371:9 383:3

discussing 93:20

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105:11 166:12 203:14

205:17 213:18,20

279:5 285:15 310:1,2

371:3 429:22 452:13

454:8 480:9

discussions 84:13,17

93:17 280:1

disease 134:18 146:13

254:9 318:11 475:20

diseases 318:8

disinfectants 79:19

disingenuous 376:12

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disproportionately

98:9

disputes 92:21

disregard 353:8

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dissolve 257:18 259:18

dissolved 257:20

dissolving 259:21

260:5

distinct 199:14

distracting 100:17

101:6

distressed 455:6

456:17

distributed 12:9 161:18

Distribution 378:2

distributors 291:16

404:19

district's 389:12

diurnal 486:10

dive 52:22 164:21

diverse 94:15 237:7,11

299:7

diversified 250:15

diversity 252:16 262:3

298:1 349:10

division 2:4,18 18:17

24:1 57:11 105:10,14

106:11 108:11 109:1

114:12,17 116:9,12

118:7,18 119:1

120:17,19 122:17

123:2,14 124:20,22

204:9 232:8 314:21

Division's 114:22

Divisive 313:4

divulge 372:7

Dixon 2:17 329:11,20

334:7,9,9 337:19

338:2,4,10 339:4

doable 177:7

docket 81:5

document 30:6 48:21

54:18,19 55:1 120:15

135:11 158:4 165:18

182:20,21 213:18,20

217:5 291:14 292:2

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160:16 180:9 185:8

198:9,12

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431:8

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43:18 52:21 56:17

98:19,21 158:5

183:18 189:3 195:22

196:21 198:14 202:2

202:6 207:20 208:2

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dodecyl 212:15

doing 27:3,6 50:12 58:7

58:8,9 59:15 65:4,6,7

65:9 66:6 73:4,5,5,11

78:15 113:6 143:8

157:10 162:1 164:18

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497:4,12

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170:1 174:7 192:17

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117:5,10 460:19

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228:5

dominated 296:17

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Dosatron 472:9

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double-digit 460:6

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downtown 102:6

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draft 37:21 174:8 356:4

391:19

drafted 82:1

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122:5

drawing 381:7

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249:15,18 267:19

286:15 479:18

dripper 267:12,19

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Driscoll's 3:2,8 441:12

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drive 35:19 156:10

171:18

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279:1

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Dru 323:19

Drug 134:17

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260:2,3 262:20

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452:5

dual 106:18

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297:14

dug 367:10

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Durando 2:18 105:8,10

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183:8 184:16 185:5

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234:22,22 370:1,15

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481:21

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501:15,17

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283:3,7,19 284:6,9,16

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376:1 395:22 411:17

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eaten 266:12

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459:15

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205:14 254:13

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352:10 353:14 429:1

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233:11 320:18,20

327:3 340:18 361:12

402:11

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296:7,11,22 299:8

300:3,5 302:20 442:4

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297:10,12 299:19,21

300:8,9,18

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402:7 421:10

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330:17 354:1 393:14

401:20,21 406:7

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205:20

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effective 384:5 400:9

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194:7

effectiveness 435:18

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400:14

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475:21

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383:20

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235:2 265:14 340:18

383:21

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168:18 332:12 396:16

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239:8 331:2 433:17

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233:10

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126:8 264:10 310:14

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127:21 135:6,18

137:18 202:12 212:11

214:3,21 215:11

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326:4 497:7

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197:3 245:4,9 260:10

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453:21 478:11 481:2

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254:21 404:1

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185:11

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471:22

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362:21 435:16

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Eliot 323:21

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391:2

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222:14,17,22

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180:4

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256:8

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263:3

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131:21 133:6 180:16

195:12 204:11 205:4

365:21 442:21 443:9

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England 3:8 322:20

389:11 421:22

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133:14 134:3 139:8

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124:12 165:11 172:1

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122:12 149:6 161:7

186:7

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119:20 185:9

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43:2,4,18,19 45:4

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

520

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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463:6

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486:15

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173:16 431:7

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161:2 163:10,11,13

376:10

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197:11 240:3

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339:12,15 342:16

347:14,16

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434:12

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456:17

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Fresh2o 3:11 256:1,5

256:21

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Fresno 9:19

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311:11

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174:4 190:5 325:20

478:20

Frontier 380:2

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148:6 152:4 154:19

407:21 427:9 458:14

491:13,18,22 492:5

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181:18 190:7 362:16

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336:8

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445:14

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341:1 408:7

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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308:11

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204:3

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336:9

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497:8

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153:12 159:13 206:20

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FY 24:20

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88:8,22 89:14 91:14

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426:5

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65:5 122:7,16 159:9

159:11 197:7 465:21

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301:3 304:4 306:7,8

314:3 352:4 408:17

408:18 463:6

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408:18

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477:14

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287:9,16,19,21 289:2

289:10 355:1

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301:6

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313:8,11

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363:17,17,21 366:16

367:16

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103:16 116:15 118:8

123:4,7 130:20 145:6

201:13 224:13 263:18

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481:19 490:6

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14:17 18:12 71:18

118:15 119:6 130:18

164:22 165:3 176:17

188:5 193:11 200:3

206:17 218:2,10

226:7 253:5 257:12

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318:17 327:8 329:8

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360:16 380:9,11

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197:4 202:18 226:4

227:8 347:16 391:9

400:7 409:19 410:18

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140:15,17 143:11

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378:1

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288:4

goal 41:2 53:4 136:21

142:18 159:10 160:20

185:2,5,12 192:13,18

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441:2

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223:17 299:15 421:16

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government-to-gove...

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414:5

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117:21 124:15

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223:22

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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97:20,22 98:5,12

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66:13,13 97:14

230:16 256:1,5,21

257:12,17,19 258:15

258:18,20 259:5,8

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309:6 310:6 388:4

403:12 419:4 442:2

443:2 444:2,5 447:5

450:5 454:1 460:20

464:13 473:6 475:4

476:19 477:7 478:13

479:11 480:18 484:15

485:1 489:16 490:10

492:9 496:7,14

497:10 498:4 500:4

500:11

growers' 442:19 443:1

growing 27:9 36:13

53:9 94:18 237:21

241:7 246:13 250:19

252:9,11 256:4,13

259:7,12,14 260:19

261:12 274:8 280:8

287:20 288:8 302:13

302:19 309:12,15

310:1 342:20 349:2

350:1 351:11,15

352:7 357:11 362:22

366:15 370:3,9

383:12,15 385:6

386:14 395:17 410:7

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456:2,12 459:5,8,14

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471:10 474:21 475:3

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376:5,8 377:4 387:3,8

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445:10 449:12 455:9

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493:13

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218:8 283:2 288:21

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207:21 254:17

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152:12 183:4 225:3
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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320:15 324:18 338:6

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483:12

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407:21,22 412:12

475:21

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412:11

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110:15 216:1 224:13

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156:20 157:20 199:21

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423:20

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294:3

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

525

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231:1

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262:11,14 311:19

312:7

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284:14

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I

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393:2

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448:16

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133:4 170:7 171:3

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283:20

Iowa 3:4 12:1 288:11

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381:18 382:14 383:16

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ITDS 109:18 110:1

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item 46:9 49:14 56:1

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83:10,10 104:13

164:22 185:7

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332:15

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396:7

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177:12 221:12 224:1

Jenny's 168:20 176:7

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jeopardizes 461:12

Jesse 1:13 3:5 10:6

12:5 227:11 231:6,8

233:15

Jim 2:15,20,21 3:10

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K

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451:11

leaves 370:22 476:7

485:8

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115:15 169:19 283:3

403:11 407:18

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409:17 411:12,14

legal 129:8,9 137:11,12

137:15 138:6,18

172:2 186:2,16

355:21 356:7 494:15

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495:2

legislate 357:10

legislative 175:8

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lens 35:15

leonardite 229:16

Leopold 341:11 344:4

lessons 142:14

let's 9:3 22:7 26:3 33:17

47:2,11,14 48:11 54:1

61:4 107:14 130:17

162:12 182:6 297:16

444:9 460:8 473:5,9

LETIS 37:16

letter 73:3 355:5,8

365:14 379:18 381:3

382:2 447:16

letters 73:8

lettuce 256:20 321:5

lettuces 256:6

level 30:21,22 31:15

45:6 52:20 53:3 68:11

74:16 78:16 89:15

91:5 120:1 135:19

136:18 139:3 142:19

168:18 169:16 170:22

186:22 307:7 320:11

332:3 401:18 462:6

463:11 482:17 495:9

leveled 128:18

levels 26:20 75:22

138:22 248:11 305:11

482:9,10,19

leveraging 193:13

levied 24:4 204:15

Lewis 2:4 3:4 18:17

80:13 83:17 84:16,19

103:19,21 130:17

143:20 155:7 166:7

205:13 221:11 396:7

401:5,8,8 404:11

406:1,15 407:2,17

408:4 409:3

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326:18 337:4,11

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408:17 419:6,8

445:14 481:11 483:6

life-long 330:16

lifting 361:19

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lignite 229:17

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limelight 113:7

limit 174:13 225:10

235:21 236:1,5 257:6

257:8

limitation 400:10,13

limitations 349:7

limited 45:10 71:2

265:5 275:12 285:10

348:21 351:16 443:1

limiting 238:10,13

limits 442:19 449:20

line 55:8 112:16 121:22

168:21 253:2 287:18

294:17 299:11 318:19

318:22 373:19 381:7

444:1

lines 201:3 249:15,18

lining 168:10

link 25:21 152:5 154:16

linked 382:18

links 428:17

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334:6,7,9

linoleic 74:15

lip 356:1

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248:16 414:10 451:20

452:1

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liquid 236:1 257:8,15

257:16 302:8 303:5

316:13 333:3 362:22

367:6 388:3,9 451:8

452:7,15 457:1

480:10,14 497:19

liquidly 424:10

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Lisa 1:15 2:3 3:12 9:10

18:19 95:18 206:14

221:15,18 222:10,22

223:7,21 224:5 360:1

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377:10,11,11

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list 2:3 8:9 15:20 18:19

19:16 20:1,15 21:6

25:22 37:20 40:16

82:13,17,22 85:3,5,9

143:18 149:8 171:12

171:19 207:4 208:21

211:3 213:1 215:4

217:4 218:16 219:1

223:12 233:7 242:10

254:11 346:10,13

355:11 356:3 359:12

369:10,12 371:5,8,11

397:2,4,5,9,21 399:7

400:11 416:13 434:6

435:8,11 437:7,8,17

439:8 493:5 495:5

listed 68:5 151:13

155:4 369:1 400:2

401:3

listen 14:13 227:1

331:11 383:6

listened 468:4

listening 100:18 328:10

listeria 465:3

listing 371:16 400:21

428:13

listings 33:21 207:3

217:13

lists 99:5 437:4,6,14

438:5 492:11,17

literally 15:20 16:20

121:10 174:4 258:8

286:11,20

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446:13

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little 23:3 60:19 70:11

77:22 81:18,20 87:16

101:12 107:21 108:22

110:3 118:16 119:5,7

170:5 184:9 196:17

223:5 244:10 250:8

254:22 265:14 269:12

270:16 305:12 306:7

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340:3 351:2 367:10

383:8 388:20 392:13

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234:18,21,22 286:1

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362:12 370:7 371:18

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337:5

load 118:14 121:6,12

123:7 124:15 125:8

216:15 263:11 402:14

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lobbied 438:1

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local 389:12 456:18

473:14,15

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421:2

located 147:18 256:6

258:4 458:11

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491:10

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logic 294:12 302:12

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logo 276:12 406:22

long 2:13 34:12 35:19

66:7 84:9 89:4 92:5

121:14 268:20 270:3

303:14 308:22 334:18
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342:15 388:2 403:9

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135:22 142:22 143:10

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289:6 335:12 346:19

390:15 395:18 437:15

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63:6 65:17 69:10

72:13 75:6 79:5 80:22

84:2 93:9 113:4,17

138:14 142:4 143:9

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199:11 202:3 204:10

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142:18 146:5 163:20

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310:19

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488:9,10

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M

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264:5,6 266:21 267:7

267:18 268:4

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454:19

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394:17 406:8 421:19

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352:6,9 354:2 480:19

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140:5 170:7,19 171:2

345:17

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357:7 373:1 405:2,2

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458:11 476:3 479:12

481:4 485:11 486:20

488:16 496:22

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330:19 475:13 477:20

479:10

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37:18 39:9 54:21 55:9

55:11,13,17 59:7

71:12 90:14,16 106:5

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314:6 331:1 377:1

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475:9 477:3

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396:12 441:12

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138:13

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151:10 152:18 224:10

227:2 373:5

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234:1

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372:21 374:1

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372:16

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464:21

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231:6,8,9,12 233:14

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235:5

Marble 283:9

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273:19,22

Marian's 287:7,18

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357:18,21 358:4

360:9 363:4,6

marker- 435:5

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114:22 115:1,21

117:12 144:16 148:13

148:21 149:4 160:21

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327:12 354:17 378:3

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405:14 407:9 420:18

492:1

marketer 378:18 407:5

marketing 2:18,19 5:11

13:11 15:18 16:3,12

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105:14,17 107:2

108:3,11 111:18

114:11 115:5 116:11

116:16,18,20 117:2

117:16 125:17 131:17

145:2 203:15 223:3

316:5 327:8 361:18

378:2 470:3

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270:9 288:9 290:11

320:22 402:21 421:13

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496:3

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179:11 190:18 193:22

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226:1 244:5 249:10

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156:2

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447:15 465:5 469:19

483:22

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14:22 15:3 92:5,13

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102:16 103:4 156:11

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309:10 313:5 323:8,9

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391:18 434:2 458:19

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217:14 246:18 268:14

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485:14

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251:5,7,9

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98:5,11,12,21 227:19

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366:18 372:3 382:9

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359:20

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214:9,13

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252:16

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402:18

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95:2 127:13 157:22

168:6 173:3 319:21

404:15 465:1 476:16

Montpelier 449:4

Moon 2:10,10 301:3

325:20

morning 2:15 5:3 7:21

8:13 9:10 13:3 16:3

22:4 31:13 39:16

104:10,22 105:7

107:13,16,16,18

189:10 194:1

Mortensen 1:16 10:2,2

63:9 66:10,19 82:11

84:6,12,18 90:1,5

91:9,12,15 188:8

191:12 261:15 287:7

288:21 289:16 350:16

351:7 352:12 360:9

360:18 363:3 380:8

394:22 395:12 423:10

424:8 445:2 446:9,12

471:1 498:8,19,22

499:3,8,12 500:1,10

501:7

moss 485:19 499:11

Mosso 1:17 9:17,17

238:3,10 239:3 250:3

251:2 482:7,12

mother 395:21 458:16

Mother's 153:8

motion 214:18,19,21

216:21,22 235:19

304:16 312:14 328:16

333:22 366:15,19

395:15 415:1,8 420:3

461:19

motions 215:5,12

motivate 36:21

motivated 94:5

motivation 103:5

motivations 421:4

motor 134:16

motto 364:10

MOU 45:5,6 48:21 83:7

86:18,21 87:4 179:19

181:6

move 8:5,13,21 12:17

15:11 21:17 35:18

66:19 82:12 83:1,6

91:19 97:3 118:16

146:18 147:15 156:18

166:11,22 225:17

227:7 244:3 250:2

308:18 320:15 321:22

329:20 330:2 340:20

347:15 368:11 403:17

409:4 411:13 420:9

454:16 455:17 457:4

457:15 462:15 469:18

moved 17:22 82:16

93:17 94:2 145:6

150:3 183:2 231:22

339:6

movement 94:19

102:15 151:12 335:12

338:13 353:10 378:15

441:20 469:6

moves 182:17 328:22

moving 44:12 51:18

100:9 108:17 109:8

111:9 148:12 167:20

191:9 211:6 212:5

216:13 340:15

Moyer 3:7 377:14 382:5

382:7,7 385:20 387:9

387:14 388:13,17

MRP 16:15
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

533

much-needed 442:13

muck 450:14,16

muddy 411:5

mulch 216:9

multi- 361:1

multi-faceted 145:11

multi-pronged 290:14

multi-species 336:3

multiple 22:5 94:9,11

136:7 199:12

Musgrave 3:8 433:9

441:10,11 444:20

445:16 446:11,22

447:3 448:1,4,11

mushrooms 383:2

mushy 487:19

mutated 355:2

mutual 33:1

mycorrhizae 316:18

mystery 453:18

N

N 4:1,1

nailed 119:8

naive 186:19

name 5:8 13:4 15:18

144:10,11 225:20

226:5,9 227:12,14

231:11 235:8,11

241:13,15 251:8

253:3 255:19 264:3,5

268:7,8 273:21,22

276:17 282:19 289:19

289:21 308:20 313:9

322:3,5 325:18 330:3

334:8 339:13 347:20

347:21,22 354:13

363:15 368:1,3 373:4

374:11,13 377:15,17

382:6 389:3 392:6

396:7,8,11 401:7

409:8,9 416:14

420:12 427:7 433:10

441:8,10 449:2

451:17 458:6,9 463:5

474:11,14

named 264:9 283:16

names 226:11 227:5,5

243:2

narrow 296:6

natamycin 210:6 211:2

211:4

nation's 44:14

national 1:3 2:2,3,3,4,5

2:6 4:6,15 5:6,10,10

5:18 8:9 13:6 18:19

19:16 20:1,15 21:6,7

21:8 40:16 52:5,9

80:21 82:22 85:3

104:1,2,5,14 107:3,17

107:20 109:8 111:10

126:4 134:13 149:3

155:15 206:12 207:4

208:21 209:19 210:19

211:3 217:4 218:16

219:1 221:16 222:5

222:14 223:3,12

233:7 254:10 268:13

277:12 313:2 325:9

339:18 345:8 354:20

355:11 359:12 365:13

369:10 371:5,8,11

376:17 397:2,3,9,21

399:7 434:5 435:11

443:13 468:16

Nationalist 369:4

Nativa 379:21

native 253:17,22 296:2

296:7,11,12,20,22

297:10 299:8,19,21

300:3 390:5,15 491:5

natural 3:4 106:19

145:18 237:7,11

243:13,13 285:21

296:15,19 300:16

340:14,15 341:21

346:12,20 347:2,7

359:5 370:2 371:10

384:9 399:1,8 401:8

401:13 403:18 444:8

444:11 465:13,13

490:5 499:11 500:6

natural-based 230:12

naturally 229:11,19

231:1 491:3,16,17

492:3

nature 226:17 333:13

344:13 404:9

nature's 379:21 442:3

Naturopathic 11:3

nearly 390:8

neat 152:21

necessarily 85:11

115:6 138:3 174:12

179:4 181:11,13

187:19 193:10 220:2

262:18 374:4

necessary 215:21

237:4 271:13 285:1

297:10 353:18

neck 261:12

need 22:20 26:11 27:3

27:5 36:14 37:4 45:18

49:12,13 58:10 60:17

63:21 64:7,21,22 67:7

72:12 79:6,12 83:2,7

95:1 112:8,17 115:17

116:2,2 120:3 122:19

129:8,18,22 130:11

139:6,14 163:12

167:4 170:10 174:19

178:18 195:5 198:7

215:20 218:1 236:22

238:18,20 245:13,18

248:3 250:2 252:1

253:7,9 262:10

285:13 290:13 293:1

293:19 295:19 296:5

302:22 307:13 319:19

320:10 335:12 342:20

343:1,7 349:8,20

358:12,18 384:11

385:5 394:5,16 411:3

422:22 424:6 426:14

439:1,7 440:13

449:20 461:8,11

464:12 466:5 468:18

469:17 472:5,10,10

477:13 483:22 486:19

486:20 495:10

needed 20:13 30:3

34:17 36:22 80:6

99:13 122:15 136:17

139:7,20 158:19

170:16 228:10 256:14

358:14 385:3 410:2

418:6 419:8 491:19

needing 285:9

needs 34:9 40:21 46:18

46:22 54:5 64:11,19

75:20 89:2 112:16

125:3 133:16 165:21

168:8 228:21 230:13

236:10 239:20,21

240:4,10,12 248:13

248:22 249:21 258:22

270:15,20 276:8

307:12,19 308:9

350:1 366:9 427:2

455:8 461:3 468:18

481:11

negative 327:9 330:21

434:15

negotiates 42:6

neighbors 100:11

neither 236:19

net 298:21 299:12

Netherlands 274:2,20

275:15 278:1,15

280:7,9,14 287:8

289:14

network 147:22

networks 161:3

neutral 188:21

never 111:6 199:8

200:16 232:14 296:8

300:13 313:4 355:15

436:20,22 453:10

456:20 464:18 465:4

new 2:15 3:8 4:16 15:21

17:9,22 20:14 25:3,21

29:14 35:15,16 37:6

39:6 41:1 43:22 47:9

57:9,18 70:8 73:8

78:11,12,18 79:1,3

80:2,21 82:17 83:14

84:4 95:21 106:16

108:20 123:12 124:1

129:21 147:21 163:11

164:12,20 168:16

179:14 185:14 206:13

209:16 210:20,21,21

214:4 219:18 220:3

220:10,21 221:4

223:14 253:4 254:17

254:22 259:7 270:2

347:4,21 351:18

384:13 389:6,6,7,10

390:6,11 406:12

408:17 413:16 421:22

463:15 474:20 475:4

newly 24:20 147:10

Newmark 324:8

news 114:22 115:1,21

newspaper 209:5

Nexight 219:16

next7.org 3:12 374:15

NFT 452:3 467:17

NHTSA 134:14

nice 18:4 317:5

niche 410:5

nicotine 370:1,18 371:9

night 91:21 103:3

305:14 416:11 450:11

nine 41:20 63:21 89:12

126:21

nine-month 319:22

ninth 50:19 393:13

401:12

nip 429:15

nitrate 236:16 260:19

262:14 317:7 443:1,3

443:9 476:2,20 477:5

494:19 495:1,10

nitrification 472:3

nitrogen 235:22 236:2

236:4,15 257:7,9

262:15,17 263:1,3

266:5,5,9,13 311:19

316:20 318:10 319:19

442:19 443:7 475:22

476:4,6,15 477:2,4
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

534

479:5 480:10,15

483:22 484:2 487:10

487:12,14 488:6

494:14,21,22 495:6,6

nitrogen-fed 318:7

Nobel 287:1

NOC 291:8

nodding 175:13

NOFA 348:14

NOFA-VT 3:3

nominated 221:22

222:1

non- 252:4 369:4 439:9

439:12

non-acid 500:15

non-agricultural

368:10 369:5

non-binding 309:20

non-certified 70:22

non-chemical 151:15

non-competitive 128:1

non-compliance 181:7

non-disclosure 220:18

non-equivalencies

173:15

non-GMO-certified

327:20

non-liquid 316:14

non-organic 201:1

213:3 434:22 437:10

non-profit 433:14

non-retail 291:6,19

non-retail-labeled

294:20

non-substantial 366:19

non-synthetic 368:11

368:15 371:19

nonagricultural 215:1

nonanoate 209:10

noncompliant 28:8

32:17

nonconformances

53:19

nonsynthetic 214:22

Noonan 3:8 382:5

389:2,5,6

NOP's 41:3 99:12

168:19 239:11 254:16

293:20 295:16 365:18

normal 219:10 465:20

normally 348:8 478:12

Northeast 348:1

northeastern 11:18

491:3

northern 241:17 287:8

363:19

NOS 376:16

NOSB 2:2 4:11 7:14

14:9 19:18 20:2,4

22:1 31:11,14 52:13

80:1 83:5 85:1 86:19

91:19 96:10 97:5,7,18

97:21 98:17,21 99:5

156:10 162:13,16,19

167:7 186:22 206:20

207:20 208:1 217:17

228:11,16 239:16

252:14 253:10 259:10

268:14 276:14 282:18

296:3 297:5,6 309:17

323:8 355:11 356:2

366:1,18 369:8 382:9

382:10 383:10 389:17

390:1,5 392:16

394:10,11 401:10

408:11 429:5 431:7

431:11,19 436:6

463:20

NOSB's 368:20 371:7

428:20 435:20

note 51:13 53:3 336:5

noted 30:12 157:13

232:22

notes 42:17 167:2

notice 150:3 152:8

154:18 181:17 192:4

210:11

noticed 184:3 203:13

297:19

noticing 182:9

notification 178:22

179:4 185:12 202:12

notifications 143:17

183:11

notified 47:18 48:15

120:1

notify 50:1,3 180:19

notifying 60:12,18

180:21

notwithstanding

226:21

nourishing 301:11

November 52:14

now-expired 442:22

NSOB 458:18

nuance 300:7

nuanced 93:20,22

number 17:20 31:6

41:10,12,15 54:9

83:20 118:9 130:2

168:6 187:13 190:16

207:11 208:14 210:3

218:16 247:14 260:11

266:6 298:5 309:5

322:22 360:10 374:16

395:1 407:15 426:12

454:1 457:9 482:21

numbers 22:8,20 73:15

96:5 127:6 190:5

360:3 490:6

numerous 105:16

428:9

nurture 304:11

nurtured 314:15

nurturing 302:20

nutgrass 417:20,22

nutrient 32:20 33:8

75:22 228:12 236:18

236:21 238:15 245:18

248:21 249:21 260:18

262:19 310:22 311:7

320:6 333:2,7,11,13

384:22 385:17 388:20

423:14,18 425:9

427:2 465:3 466:2

471:21 479:17

nutrients 237:9 245:14

263:15,18 265:11

266:3 303:5,17 318:2

318:10 333:4 362:15

377:5 472:4,6

nutrition 237:11 267:8

357:1 402:11 403:5

456:22 475:12

nutritional 317:18

362:11 387:6

nutritious 257:2 330:20

362:3 375:7 406:3

442:2

O

O 4:1

o'clock 416:9,11

Oakley 1:17 11:17,17

70:5,19 234:10,16

246:18 254:21 263:6

278:21 293:7,11,16

297:19 304:15 312:12

318:16 328:14 333:20

334:3 342:18 352:14

366:13 395:14 399:22

400:6 414:22 415:6

419:21 420:2 424:18

461:16 489:2,7

490:22

Oakley's 498:12

oasis 286:12,14

oats 413:14

Obama 84:8 355:10

objected 432:2

objection 12:14,16

objective 434:9

objectivity 98:11

obligation 379:11,12

obliged 495:2

observable 254:6

observation 344:10

observe 7:14

obsolete 369:12

obtain 120:19

obtained 141:5

obtaining 152:1 442:17

obvious 242:2

obviously 62:11 125:19

134:6 319:9 359:3

447:4 485:13 486:4

Occasionally 249:19

371:21

occur 54:11 56:3,4

139:2 152:14 214:17

300:15 475:19

occurred 137:4 141:3

253:14 432:1 453:11

occurring 229:19 231:2

OCIA 177:15

octanol 208:18

OCTOBER 1:7

OFA 427:17,17

offer 189:19 190:18

294:4 404:15 427:20

offers 254:4

office 4:7 13:21 17:22

19:9 39:21 40:2 54:10

55:9,11 63:3 83:21

90:13,16,17 91:8

99:13 105:22 106:10

124:22 125:3,6 144:3

144:13 176:4 177:8

256:8 365:6

Officer 74:18

officers 8:20 147:7

offices 28:1,2 55:12

125:2

official 2:7 5:16 45:1

203:19

officially 5:5 34:13

133:1 137:4

officials 45:9,17 49:8

230:7 463:18

offshore 146:15 151:5

offsite 102:16

OFPA 172:4 207:21

253:15 268:20 271:2

273:15 302:14,18

303:11 323:16 356:10

357:13 363:10 365:7

365:14,18,19,22

366:10,16,17,21

376:21 427:22 428:8

434:19

Ohio 386:8

OID 68:22
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

535

OIG 40:2,2,6,8 41:6

42:9,13 44:22 45:16

46:9,14 47:3 48:12,13

49:6,14 50:8,9,13,20

51:10 64:6 65:10 66:4

156:19 159:3 160:6

167:9 172:17 173:22

OIG's 51:7

oil 335:10 355:2,14

Oklahoma 11:18

450:22 491:4

Olam 9:18

old 2:15 221:1,2 232:1

283:10 299:3 350:21

401:13 420:14 423:6

426:7 449:10,10

453:4 485:19 501:5

old-fashioned 309:16

older 306:7 353:15

409:17

Ole 10:6

Omaha 16:1

omega-3 74:14

omega-3s 77:13

Omni 1:9

OMRI 3:6 232:20 260:1

368:5,13 370:22

372:14,18,20 373:2

373:17

OMRI's 370:8,10

on-the-ground 164:3

189:13

onboard 84:4,20

338:14

once 23:8 48:16 77:16

82:5 98:19 127:15

138:16 139:21 141:9

143:5,8 159:13 169:2

170:14 174:10 176:9

194:19 212:3 215:2

219:5 225:7 238:20

266:5,9 391:3 397:13

423:13

one-size-fits-all 252:20

one-to-one 384:12,16

384:21

ones 93:22 186:11

218:9 223:14 278:16

371:15 399:18 432:6

ongoing 53:14 84:16

111:22 112:5 137:3

153:12 170:6 196:13

205:16 293:3

online 15:5 25:11 29:16

40:4 219:7 254:18

onsite 30:9 41:15 50:10

56:9 76:7,8

open 30:16 33:18 60:2

81:5 83:3 89:5 105:10

107:11 162:20 166:19

173:11 235:13 268:2

306:10 402:4 437:11

444:15 482:20 483:10

485:9

opened 128:9 162:13

opening 5:5 107:6

151:3

operate 449:4

operated 256:7 463:10

operates 26:14

operating 27:21 54:17

55:5 164:8 167:13

182:3 193:18 199:13

199:14

operation 11:20 30:21

37:16 38:22 64:12

68:11 158:14,18

162:11 175:21 181:12

197:17 198:1,19,20

199:12 200:22 201:20

250:4 290:22 320:21

372:12 380:16 406:4

406:6 448:8 472:17

472:21,22,22 484:14

489:20 497:11,13

operational 149:15

150:19 151:2,7

operationally 150:14

operations 22:12,13,22

24:6,10,12,15,16,20

26:1 27:14 30:10,11

32:4 34:13 38:12 40:8

61:18 64:14 65:3

69:15 70:22 92:10

104:17 112:4 129:19

134:1 140:5 158:8

170:7,18 171:1

173:18 174:1 194:4

199:17 201:21 264:15

274:15 278:4 290:4,6

294:13 315:10 320:21

324:20 325:1 335:6,9

336:15 356:16 364:16

371:22 381:5 384:4

389:9 396:13 397:5

399:14 402:20 404:6

404:14 429:7 451:16

496:9

opinion 270:21 316:1

318:18 319:2 342:22

385:16 481:20

opinions 302:6

OPM 90:11,13

OPP 84:17

opportunities 19:22

53:21 73:12 115:7

353:6

opportunity 81:13

104:19 166:14 183:3

226:8 235:16 287:11

293:5 339:16 348:5

361:14 377:17 398:19

399:1 402:11 441:13

444:6 454:17 455:4

458:21 460:9 462:6

474:15 489:19

oppose 359:15 451:8

opposed 231:15 232:1

242:12 244:11,18

304:17 372:20 394:6

436:2,3

opposite 289:9 350:5

421:22

optimal 284:3

option 38:21 55:15

152:17,19 265:1

305:17 390:12 425:3

optional 37:8 398:11

options 31:9 47:20 48:8

56:8 65:4 152:15

162:9 305:3 390:11

494:1 495:7

oral 15:6 360:22

orange 272:4

oranges 260:16 415:12

orchard 479:14

orchards 47:15

order 2:18 4:2 63:22

83:1 105:9,14 108:11

116:11,20 117:16

125:18 133:8 137:1

206:11 215:6,11

216:14,22 243:19

270:16 276:16 373:17

448:13,17

ordered 355:8,19

orders 105:17 114:11

115:5 116:18 203:15

451:6 454:19

Oregon 282:22

org 144:19 145:7,9

Organic's 271:8

organic-specific

183:12

organically 256:13

299:6 301:7 330:19

346:8 385:1 386:4

387:7 420:15 432:11

499:22

organically-approved

314:13

organically-certified

320:17

organically-managed

301:18

organics 2:11 3:7,11

10:7 21:8 239:7 242:5

264:10 308:16 343:2

345:8 357:7 361:8,9

377:22 379:22 405:20

431:9 441:11 470:5

470:11

organism 286:21

organisms 145:14

284:7,12 482:21

organization 6:10 77:8

144:6 149:3 186:1

220:1 274:3 370:12

379:4 433:14 438:1

organizational 16:9

99:1

organizations 190:7

379:18

organize 285:19

origin 150:20 152:20

original 392:1

originally 170:15,21

originator 330:14

ornamentals 236:6

275:22

OSPs 295:20

OTA 251:15 356:6

OTA's 251:22

outages 140:19

outbreak 148:6

outbreaks 148:6

outcome 185:6 276:3

421:22

outcomes 109:4 252:15

outdoor 250:12 315:2

315:10 355:18 412:21

426:22 460:21

outdoors 384:10

outer 269:15

outermost 284:5,16

outgoing 8:18

outlaw 281:19

outlined 148:15 291:5

outlining 45:13

output 490:18

outreach 130:8

outside 91:5 98:22

100:13 102:21 159:16

329:21 330:2 419:17

425:15 429:10 431:4

outstanding 4:16

206:14 222:6 223:2

over-application 477:2

over-used 444:8

overall 33:22 53:17

71:12 112:13 145:17

246:3 452:9
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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overarching 182:20

overcome 467:15

overlap 131:12 493:20

493:21 494:3

overlooks 230:13

overly 443:17

overnight 194:21

overriding 378:9

overruled 356:6

oversaw 111:20

oversee 111:22

overseeing 29:18

162:18 204:17

overseen 169:16

oversees 26:22 105:15

118:7 175:21

oversight 29:7 32:11

41:3 62:18 104:3,16

124:11 138:22 143:15

161:19 162:3 166:16

294:10 461:3

overspray 285:9

oversupply 77:7

overturned 355:19

overview 4:3 13:12,21

53:16 63:10 105:11

132:3 142:11 164:14

206:18

overwhelmingly 309:21

owe 173:22

owned 110:4 313:21,22

463:10

owner 120:13 256:10

463:7

ownership 161:11

owns 66:1

Owusu 432:8

oxalic 211:19

oxidative 230:3,8

oxidized 229:17

oxymoron 420:22

oxytocin 337:21 358:5

358:10 359:1,11

396:22 397:3,6

398:22 435:10

ozone-depleting

134:11

P

P 156:10

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

5:1

p.m 102:7 206:8,9

329:16,16 501:21

pace 143:4

package 233:20 291:11

462:20

packaged 232:12

291:17,18

packaging 214:6,10

291:10

packers 145:6

page 25:22 140:21

154:17 293:20

paid 250:14

pallet 118:10

panel 4:13 8:5 22:4

31:12 39:16 52:11

67:18 89:7 91:6,14

103:8,17 104:19

105:6,11 148:17

156:12 166:11 192:5

205:17,18

panelists 106:20 205:8

panelists' 130:15

panels 91:4

paper 111:9 119:12,13

119:16 120:9,12,15

120:20 121:2 122:5

142:7 184:11 190:17

209:5

paper-based 197:6

paperwork 45:20

184:14,20 185:1,20

197:16 198:17

para 370:6

paragraphs 398:10

parallel 289:8,12

293:22

parameters 244:22

parasiticide 370:7

397:18 398:13

parasiticides 396:19

398:4,7

pardon 110:9

parentheses 440:11,14

parents 102:12 304:9

Paris 277:10

parking 102:17 455:7

part 5:11 16:11,13

20:15 24:14 33:8

34:18 40:9 47:7 57:1

59:1 61:17 66:1,2

67:19 75:22 79:11

85:8 104:12 105:3

130:20 135:11 158:12

165:18 172:17 174:21

175:3 182:16 196:20

199:17 200:5 205:16

205:19 212:7 215:17

216:11 217:17 218:5

219:9 228:19 233:2

242:3 245:18 246:10

249:5 257:21 270:3

271:2,8,9 281:21,22

350:6 367:12 371:3

399:7 407:17 422:2

430:5 436:22 455:22

486:21 499:15 500:13

partial 191:5

partiality 98:16

partially 456:10

PARTICIPANT 408:2

participate 7:14 20:20

86:12 239:9 336:17

453:17

participating 14:21

111:11 139:6 142:13

particle 232:8

particular 75:9 81:8,9,9

97:11,21 128:5 165:4

218:14 334:15 404:12

476:13 480:3,21

485:2,12

particularly 165:15

346:19 485:10 490:2

492:19

parties 280:2

partly 249:3

partner 31:7 48:13

110:15,17 130:9

132:15 133:5

partnered 28:3

partners 47:6 50:18

130:22 133:13,13

134:5 155:9 156:16

157:2 298:11

partnership 45:1

161:22 376:10

partnerships 111:14

parts 86:13 108:17

261:9 292:1

pass 59:11 168:3

203:19 215:6,11

217:1 313:6 363:9

375:14

passed 125:8 139:16

179:20 184:6 222:8

252:2 286:20 304:21

309:21 335:14 367:20

369:8 376:16 421:5

427:17

passes 161:13 292:10

passing 312:22

passionate 94:14 465:7

pasture 299:3,4 319:5

326:14,14 336:2

384:7 385:3

pasture-based 402:5

pastured 402:5

pastures 76:11 384:10

449:12

pasturing 319:16

Patagonia 2:12 377:18

379:22

patchwork 94:4

path 2:13 94:6,9 245:20

379:22 392:9 395:2,4

paths 444:15

patience 94:21

pattern 181:17 354:21

383:18

Pattillo 2:5 18:20

Paul 2:4,22 18:16 78:8

79:16 95:18 103:19

107:14 130:16 162:13

205:12 409:6 416:6

416:14,16

Paul's 95:11

pause 42:15

pausing 325:12

pay 147:14 171:10

356:1 417:8 459:4

paying 192:4 362:20

389:20

PCC 403:15

PCO 290:3 292:16

293:2 396:13 397:2

397:19,21 398:5

PCO's 290:8

peas 413:14

peat 229:18 485:19

496:2,11 499:10

pedo 452:22

pedogenesis 452:22

pedosphere 283:21

284:6,8,15

peer 4:9 8:2 12:18 14:2

14:4 52:5,7,15,17

53:4,8 54:16,20 57:15

58:22 59:1 221:22

307:9

peers 222:1 461:2

pelletized 413:15

pellets 267:11

pen 222:11

penalties 24:5,14 26:18

193:13

pending 211:21 395:15

Penn 10:3 311:22

Pennsylvania 2:11 3:11

10:4 290:1 301:6

330:6,12 392:9,10

396:12 498:16

pens 222:12,13

people 14:21 15:6,9

16:21 23:9,12 31:6

32:16 61:13 74:5

85:16 86:7 101:22

129:22 130:2,5

144:11 190:16 191:3

192:3 193:10 201:13
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

537

227:5 234:22 242:16

242:19 243:7,10,11

244:3,3,16,21 256:14

263:11 285:7 323:7

331:13,22 332:5

337:10 338:16 341:10

343:9,10,20 353:2

362:19 374:16,17

375:2,21 379:5,6

394:1,3 395:1,7,11

404:14 407:6 408:13

409:16 410:12,19

411:11,15,16 414:2

414:17,17 415:14

423:4 425:14 455:6

456:16 457:9 464:14

465:6 467:4,4 470:7,8

487:17 493:21 496:10

people's 421:4 467:6

468:11

peoples 362:6

pepper 213:6

peppers 310:20 403:9

404:3 405:5,17

percent 24:9 70:21

74:13 75:16 128:7,7

185:6,10,12 190:11

192:14,19,19,22

193:2,8 194:22 195:1

195:13 231:21 235:21

236:1,15 237:18

238:15,20 246:6

257:7,9 259:5 261:18

261:20,21 263:10

264:10 266:8 282:3

297:8 311:3 312:20

316:13,14,17 319:19

320:2,9,11 380:15

388:3,9 390:7 393:10

393:11 434:9,11,21

435:12 437:11 439:12

439:14 443:2 473:2

475:11 484:21 485:15

487:18 489:21 490:6

percentage 246:1,3

261:1 362:8 363:9

425:18,22 437:12

481:5 489:10 494:19

494:19,20

percentages 261:5

262:10

perception 343:6 351:3

percolation 476:20

Perdue 15:15

perennial 447:4 475:7

480:18 485:3

perennials 236:4 447:1

perfect 249:2 365:19

410:2 463:4

perfectly 349:1 468:3

perform 56:9 149:12

performance 165:10,18

223:2

peri- 390:17

period 16:18 87:15

89:18 117:2,20

179:13 188:17 189:5

220:7 246:8 284:18

297:2 303:14 362:18

440:18

perlite 496:11

permanent 17:13 87:17

permit 146:19 150:18

152:8 154:13 389:7

434:22

permits 154:5

permitted 376:2 421:7

permitting 146:18

perpetrated 186:20

persevered 418:16

person 6:17 11:20 90:5

98:10 175:20 184:3

293:10 307:9 337:21

348:12 351:19 372:6

385:21 389:19 469:8

person's 350:21,22

personal 51:13 98:15

135:3 226:14 232:12

375:18 378:12 465:22

personally 191:18

242:12 377:21 380:5

personnel 90:14,16

115:22 119:2 120:7

135:2 138:5 180:13

196:5 200:11

perspective 105:12

108:3,4 109:5 118:16

130:21 155:16 156:5

269:13 335:11 340:5

370:11 409:19

perspectives 22:5

104:20 173:13 496:8

pertaining 225:22

pesky 369:11

pest 47:15 48:1 147:16

147:21 148:2 149:8

149:12,16 152:11,13

195:20 250:13 442:5

493:3,22

pest-free 150:8

pesticide 397:18

pesticides 134:11

185:18 186:3 246:21

303:4 318:5 402:13

pests 49:9 146:13,16

148:1,11 151:12

152:22 153:11 233:4

423:2

Pete 241:15

Pete's 3:2 241:16

Peter 3:2 235:7 241:12

241:13 251:3

petition 8:9 149:1

207:17,22 208:17,19

209:6,9,10,13,14,19

209:21 210:16,19,20

210:21 211:8,17,19

211:21 213:8 223:10

368:22 375:1 397:17

petitioned 80:2 206:22

207:8,15 208:16

211:2,18 212:22

214:15

petitioner 211:3 213:5

petitioners 210:17

petitioning 208:20

petitions 4:16 21:6

80:10 206:14 210:3

211:10,13 212:1,6,17

213:7 219:14 396:17

petroleum 234:20

PGA 110:16 136:4,5

141:17 178:20 179:10

181:4 182:14,15

183:2

PGAs 110:16 111:19

113:11 132:16

pH 498:13,16,20 499:6

499:11,18

Ph.D 2:3,4,6

Pharma 355:1

phase 194:18

phased 192:15

phases 20:20

phasing 132:11 193:6

Philadelphia 122:21

philosophical 285:3

philosophy 359:4

Phoenix 122:20

phone 120:10 161:7

180:21 269:5,6

phones 100:12 224:12

phosphate 434:4,17

437:2 438:9,18

phosphate's 438:5

phosphorous 261:19

phosphorus 260:18

262:16 434:14

photography 101:2

photosynthesis 393:16

physical 200:6 284:2

physically 119:18 200:8

physics 454:20

phytosanitary 108:3

111:2 150:9 151:7

152:9 154:11 180:19

202:5,10

pickative 346:18

picking 180:21 418:14

picture 18:10 80:4

119:5 131:15 153:4

283:1

pictures 18:4 77:14

223:5

piece 193:20 246:13

270:7 292:17 326:20

364:11

piggyback 272:10

pilgrimage 330:12

pillars 32:11

pilot 128:8 130:11

141:7,13,20 193:7

194:19

piloting 128:3

pine 501:3

pioneer 401:15

pioneered 375:10

pioneering 334:22

pipeline 71:6 189:2

pitfalls 319:11

pivotal 194:2

place 48:1 51:9 58:8

137:17,19,20 138:4

139:12,22 171:16

172:2 184:21 185:20

190:16 194:20 201:2

201:19 300:2 306:13

314:4 373:3 380:19

411:19,20 437:14

placed 100:15 265:22

267:22

places 36:14 120:16

247:12 302:14 404:17

491:15 497:18

placing 265:14,17

266:8

plain 119:9 332:12

341:18 365:9

plan 46:10 54:17 55:5

64:14 101:11 149:15

150:19 151:4 236:13

376:22 428:1,5 447:7

447:15,15,19 448:14

planet 284:18 285:8

347:12 375:18 379:10

planning 32:6 148:20

173:20

plans 30:7 50:16 69:14

393:8 457:13

plant 28:5 106:7,8

113:13 143:22 144:3

145:4,10,20,21 146:2
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

538

146:6,12 147:7 149:3

149:10 153:18 155:10

179:17 229:20 230:6

235:22 236:2,18,21

236:22 237:9,10,14

238:18 254:9 258:19

258:21 259:22 266:12

266:13 301:10 311:21

386:16,17 387:22

395:22 412:15 423:13

454:16 464:1 475:18

476:1 478:21 499:19

500:9 501:6

plant's 236:15 257:7,9

478:21

planted 236:3 257:11

258:17 261:11 412:10

447:9,22 465:12

planting 263:12 448:6

476:7 479:13,14

483:1 497:2

plantings 447:10,20

448:7

plants 236:7 238:21

257:14 263:14,17

287:20 289:7 299:7

300:16 301:16 302:7

303:1 318:11 327:19

330:20 375:13 377:4

383:12 423:17,22

446:1,4 452:16 453:1

455:11 465:12,17,21

466:3,21 467:6 472:5

479:4 485:3 498:10

498:11 499:5,5

plaque 222:19,20

plastic 423:19

play 113:19 165:5

168:21 169:21

played 138:19

player 113:20 161:13

players 105:1 161:3

331:14 332:1

playing 73:14 128:18

249:10 305:12 357:3

462:7 496:18

plays 277:4

please 14:18 100:12

224:14 225:7 226:19

275:3 286:16 313:9

329:20 330:1 357:12

403:13 407:11 446:11

452:6 458:7

pleased 13:4,9 18:2

73:14 144:4

pleasure 390:2

plow 417:19

PLU 253:4

plug 181:22

plural 182:19

plus 231:18 267:3

347:9 402:2 403:19

podium 255:22

point 76:22 110:11,14

117:11 143:6 148:3

153:13 155:5 162:21

174:2 176:7 180:3

188:5 193:20 197:10

201:22 202:5 216:5

218:13 219:17 226:21

232:11 258:3 263:7

263:19 276:16 289:12

294:3 301:1 303:22

304:21 306:18 309:13

325:14 342:14 344:1

345:13 352:21 370:8

404:2,18 432:1,3

454:21 455:10 456:1

460:10 464:22 465:11

pointed 344:6,9

pointing 108:8

points 97:10 108:6

191:11 259:6 382:16

poised 83:6

poisoned 258:8

policies 56:7 224:9

277:12 287:17,21

289:10 368:17 373:4

427:15

policy 97:5,6 106:10

147:2 224:17 251:10

254:3 268:18 275:2

289:1 334:10,15

335:19 336:10 389:16

427:16 433:11

political 137:6 169:3,6

275:5 281:22

pollute 259:2

polluted 285:8

pollution 477:1

polyoxin 210:6,13

ponder 468:10

pondered 464:3

pondering 473:4

ponic 306:11

pool 53:13

poop 467:9

poops 472:2

populating 158:7

population 297:14

342:21 343:18 344:2

344:16 460:13

porch 355:18,20

porosity 486:2,18

port 47:10 147:1 153:6

180:6 195:17 199:5,8

199:13,15,15 200:5

200:16 201:6 202:16

portal 115:19 116:1

176:18 204:18

ports 41:11,13 44:17,18

46:13 130:10 138:11

147:8,13 150:17

189:14 196:5 199:12

200:17

posed 99:12

position 70:8,10 87:22

88:2 89:4,17 187:19

252:1 288:6 305:7

366:14 377:22 397:2

397:19 400:2,7

431:21 454:10

positioning 162:6

positions 17:18,21 88:5

88:9,15 253:12

427:16 467:20

positive 465:4

possibilities 162:12

possibility 397:8

possible 34:9 86:20

101:1 136:14 162:10

181:7 192:9 199:6

225:11 257:2 321:17

324:3,4 341:7 406:3

452:11

possibly 80:9 184:14

205:18 328:5 431:5

post 59:4 74:10 77:1

219:7

post-2016 134:2

post-core 133:11,19

170:18,22 171:1

post-reproduction

358:16

posted 25:3,16,20 29:3

29:5,7 98:20 156:1

209:20 212:3 214:6

218:9 220:7

posting 25:7 29:6 61:1

postings 25:2

postulated 283:18

pot 479:21

potash 424:6,7

potassium 213:12

368:9,14

potatoes 364:1,7

potential 98:13,22

178:14 184:2 349:15

352:2 357:9 454:15

potentially 31:1 110:16

111:12 123:21 129:3

165:3

potter 236:6

potting 381:6

poultry 233:8,21 234:7

435:22 439:20 440:5

440:14

pound 232:13,13

poverty 343:13

powders 234:1

power 175:15 473:7

powerful 382:22

PPQ 153:15 179:17

practical 254:5

practice 140:4 141:21

204:16 275:12 278:22

292:2 448:10,12

475:15

practiced 201:19

practices 29:20 30:15

59:7 76:10 163:12,16

202:2 207:14 254:14

255:9 271:6 291:14

324:2 373:19 375:9

376:6 428:6 448:18

448:19 475:16 477:12

477:18

Prairie 2:21 363:18

pre-clearance 151:4

pre-existing 139:18

pre-petition 148:20

pre-populate 158:15

preamble 391:7

precedents 460:10

precepts 323:16

precious 298:19

precise 57:5

precision 52:20

predicting 248:22

predominantly 454:22

preface 74:9 424:20

prefer 245:1 304:19

312:16 328:16 395:16

415:2,6 420:4 490:3

preferably 406:4

preference 359:18

381:19,19 407:14

425:1,2,5

prejudiced 259:7

premier 300:3

premise 285:17

premium 3:7 327:12

362:20,20 403:11

prep 286:13

preparation 246:15

369:15

preparations 286:17,22

prepare 46:18

prepared 451:9 453:6

preparing 166:10

preps 286:14

prerequisite 327:22
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

539

presaging 306:15

prescribes 97:13

prescriptive 442:12

443:17 477:18

presence 44:21 237:6

276:2

present 1:11 2:1,8 3:1

191:9 230:1 233:6

296:14 329:19 482:21

494:17

presentation 9:2 31:9

73:19 85:1 108:6

131:8,9 155:8 159:19

203:13 206:17 225:14

291:9

presentations 107:11

445:4

presented 85:16 191:16

193:2

presenter 225:13

presenting 84:3 124:8

364:18

Presently 229:15

preserve 299:9

preserving 257:2

444:10

president 11:11 227:16

231:12 378:1 389:10

presidential 106:5

presiding 1:10

pressure 274:16 351:5

417:14

presumably 387:2

399:16

presumed 121:6 471:9

pretending 237:5

pretext 421:16

pretty 63:14 77:13

113:6 126:12 141:15

142:19 148:15 180:1

248:21 317:22 325:5

383:11 405:16 438:11

456:18 482:4 485:8

489:15,22 493:3

prevent 49:10 138:1

151:11

Prevention 134:19

preview 217:10 218:10

previous 5:17 40:11

106:11 133:7 209:7

213:21 220:9 226:21

246:14,18 277:2

324:7 418:10 484:10

492:20

previously 106:4

214:19 230:18 268:10

299:22 339:7

price 66:17 191:1

327:12 380:15 403:11

404:7 426:8

prices 246:16 265:12

405:7,7,8

pride 442:2

primarily 113:22 313:21

346:16 377:1 420:17

423:5

primary 331:1 364:1

377:5

principle 275:17 279:14

301:9 331:22 332:6

principles 270:22 276:9

315:1,9 428:21

441:21 444:1 478:3

prior 99:3 118:1 136:14

141:17 170:16 211:11

398:13 438:1 440:14

priorities 21:22 254:7,8

254:15 421:6 429:12

prioritization 139:22

167:6 169:2 171:8

prioritize 112:15 133:14

139:19 167:4,8,20

218:6 239:11

prioritized 168:11

169:8

prioritizing 84:5

priority 28:18 169:12

170:19 171:12,19

218:8 247:14

pristine 298:19

private 466:8

Prize 287:1

pro-hydro 350:20

probably 113:5 120:14

126:8 128:6 142:15

167:12 184:12 187:7

195:4 201:16,17

240:18 247:13,14

294:10 309:1 310:3

331:9 339:17 354:1

359:21 365:2 389:17

389:18,19 425:13

426:20 445:2 451:18

469:18 481:9 483:1

498:4

problem 125:21 163:18

189:12,13 260:14,21

261:7,8 262:3 285:12

293:16 318:6 343:6

344:5 365:17 366:8

387:17 405:6 406:13

problematic 238:11

442:20

problems 142:22

164:13 170:9 234:21

260:13 264:20,22

281:1 303:1 318:3,9

365:11,16 443:8

475:20 486:3 489:15

procedure 51:5 54:5,8

58:9,10 373:13

procedures 49:15 50:3

50:21 52:21 53:1,6,11

53:18,22 54:2,15,16

55:21 56:2,7 58:20

62:16 78:11,18 88:6

97:6 104:16 151:9

224:10

proceed 25:18 83:16

125:15,16 206:11

proceeding 496:13

processed 231:17,19

355:12

processes 39:9 43:17

55:19 57:22 59:8

230:8 245:20 442:6

processing 58:3 208:8

208:10 232:6,7

processor 128:2

161:15 174:4

Processor/Handler

9:20

processors 27:5 38:9

274:4

proclaimed 276:7

produce 46:13 148:22

241:17 242:15 245:14

256:13,15,21 257:2

259:9 280:13,14

291:17,18 317:18,22

340:9 343:7 387:4,8

395:6,10 402:20

404:4,7 407:8,18

422:3 444:9 451:9

459:9 460:20 462:3,7

465:3,17 473:10

477:11 491:14 492:5

492:10 498:4

produced 231:14 252:6

261:22 275:18 278:15

281:6 356:21 383:1

491:14

producer 232:18 279:6

354:18

producers 10:8,13

31:20 38:14,17 117:5

117:10 119:4 128:19

158:3 229:6 279:2,12

279:13 310:5 320:17

348:19 359:17,18

387:21 397:11,22

398:22 399:12,16

400:20,22 401:2

440:1 442:14 443:12

producing 148:8

249:12 343:8 356:17

443:14 458:13

product 35:8 36:8

38:15 43:1,4 45:20

49:11 60:21 94:14

113:7 117:1,11

118:10,13 119:20

120:13 123:17 127:21

128:19 129:3,5,11

133:17 160:20 161:10

172:8,11 179:1,9

185:19 187:14,18,20

200:8 201:1 202:4

204:3,8,14,15 227:18

232:11,17 233:2,8

234:20,21 272:8

288:9 291:11 292:7,8

294:19 346:8 362:21

372:7 373:11 439:14

439:15

productive 418:20

productivity 490:16

products 3:12 24:7

26:8 27:5,7 29:19

30:3 37:21 41:5,13

43:6,8,18,19 45:3,15

46:16 48:5,16 49:1,5

49:8,16,17 50:4 71:1

79:19 104:4,18,21

108:2 111:3 114:20

116:9 117:7 124:4

161:4 166:16 187:8

188:12 192:17,22

201:22 204:20 212:10

227:16 228:10,14

229:3 232:19 243:18

251:13 259:9 270:9

276:12 278:14 281:6

291:15 356:17 372:10

400:3,15 425:16

427:22 429:20 436:3

438:12,16,17 493:22

495:4

professional 475:15

professionally 228:1

profit 331:15 332:7,12

program 2:2,3,4,5,6,18

4:6,15 5:10,19 11:6

13:6 17:10,17 28:19

40:12 51:11,14,19

52:6 53:9 61:22 62:9

62:15 63:1 80:22

82:17,18 83:21 93:11

99:3 104:1,5 106:9

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137:2

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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359:20 433:2

responses 41:20 42:1

42:14 64:7,7 327:10

responsibilities 30:4

responsibility 79:12

128:14

responsible 57:12

102:5 443:21 476:19

rest 7:9 8:10 194:9

216:10 258:22 279:12

342:9 407:22 419:9

restrict 437:9

restricted 439:12

rests 32:11

result 20:7 22:19

139:15 209:6 263:17

454:11 465:4

resulted 26:9

results 38:12 127:7,7

resumed 103:13 206:8

329:16

retail 315:16

retailer 395:9

retailers 9:12 97:17

403:15 458:14

retain 124:13

retained 126:19

rethink 341:6 347:10

retired 378:1

retirement 95:7

retiring 55:20

retract 355:8

retracted 431:16,18

return 340:19

reused 495:22

reveal 374:2

reverse 349:16 352:3

352:19

reversed 355:9

review 4:9 7:18 8:2,17

12:18 14:2,4 19:13

24:11 37:21 45:11

52:5,7,15 53:4,8

54:16 56:6,16 58:4,19

59:2 70:15 76:9 79:18

87:2 90:21 91:4,6

97:5 98:21 135:9

149:9 157:9 184:11

207:20 209:7,13,15

209:17 210:4,22

211:11,17 212:8,11

212:20 213:9,14

215:16,16,18 216:13

216:14,19 217:17

218:5,18 368:5

387:15 397:22 400:8

reviewed 89:7 136:13

207:9 216:6,11

217:13

reviewing 30:5 52:21

56:12 76:6 135:6

228:15

reviews 23:19 50:17

52:17 54:20,21 57:4

57:15 58:22 211:13

212:11 219:14

revise 51:5 58:16 369:9

revised 54:15 298:2

revision 231:3 276:4,5

276:8 279:18 281:22

revisions 292:13,21

revocations 25:10

26:18 27:13
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

544

revoke 62:6

revoked 24:20 26:1

62:4,5

revolution 375:11

rewarded 361:16

Rhode 37:17

Rica 322:20

Rice 1:18 11:4,4 200:17

293:18

Rich 251:6 255:13

rid 440:15

Riddle 3:10 420:10

427:5,9,9 430:4,8,13

430:15,17 431:1,13

432:3,15,17,20 433:5

ride 316:7

ridiculous 383:8

riding 361:17

right-hand 145:1

rights 362:7

rigorous 230:5 358:21

rigs 267:21

risk 31:5 48:2 62:11

149:12 354:7 378:14

478:11

risk- 65:12

risk-based 47:12 62:17

62:21 72:18 76:18,21

78:10 79:6,11,14

153:18,22

risks 62:1 63:4

Riverdale 144:12

Rivers 323:19

road 176:22 321:11

403:19

roadmap 51:18

rob 481:10,15

robust 53:10 57:8 58:12

76:14 87:4 113:14

115:1 128:11 145:9

179:6 278:1 301:13

358:21

rock 245:12 316:18

Rodale 3:7 273:6

330:14 331:3,5,20

332:15 382:8

Roger 3:8 382:5 389:2

389:3,6

role 5:17 6:9 17:12 18:2

87:14 116:8 131:2,20

131:21,21 138:19,20

165:6 168:21 169:22

239:12,14,19 277:2

344:19

roles 16:22 156:15

163:3,15,21,22

roll 331:5 408:8

rolled 309:14

Rome 347:5

roof 279:10 426:9

room 102:9 176:5,9

215:13 270:11 334:17

378:11,12 379:5

394:6 408:11 409:16

450:9 476:7

root 237:6 452:17 455:3

477:1 478:4 480:2

486:11,17 495:22

496:1 500:8 501:4

roots 302:9 311:21

396:1 423:21,22

486:3

rotate 250:13 447:17

457:5

rotating 336:2 447:5

479:15

rotation 241:19 250:5,5

250:9 286:2 314:15

364:3 377:3 412:6

422:16,18,21 446:20

447:4 457:13

rotations 303:17 457:6

rough 173:15

roughest 173:16

roughly 188:15

round 6:3,11 14:17

365:2

routine 435:16

rows 484:11

ruderal 296:15 300:9

Ruihong 17:11,11,15

17:22 18:3 87:13

95:21

rule 13:17 19:13,13,16

20:3,6 21:9,11,16

82:1,3,5 230:9,22

236:21 258:19 296:4

296:12 319:7,8

355:15 356:4 392:17

442:22 443:5,9

456:10,11

rule- 290:15 293:1

rulemaking 20:5,8,14

21:5 85:4,18 86:9,14

128:6 149:22 150:2

215:21 357:9 438:3

rulemakings 175:22

rules 21:3 23:17 275:4

276:9 279:19,21

321:4 323:17,18

391:15

run 107:10 182:6 192:5

232:2 241:20 242:21

249:17 286:15 307:1

308:6 358:2 393:9

401:14 452:3 473:1

499:6

run-out 449:10

running 101:11 204:13

268:11,12 270:6

307:18 325:13 363:14

runoff 238:14 258:2,7

258:10 260:19 476:2

476:20

runs 191:5 259:2 320:1

rural 402:11

Russell 3:12 227:10,11

227:15

S

S 4:1

sad 321:19,19

safe 7:16 232:16,16

408:20 433:17 455:12

464:11 469:14 470:9

safeguarding 144:15

146:9,10

safer 82:17 433:15

safest 362:3

safety 106:3 113:16

114:21 134:14 268:11

380:17 463:15,18

464:15,17 466:11

467:12 468:19

sale 172:10,22 173:6

178:19 179:5 317:9

376:13

sales 92:11 189:4

313:19 314:5 353:22

378:20 380:10

Salinas 473:11

salinity 264:22 475:18

salmonella 465:2

salt 210:7 268:2

salts 210:14 265:2

salty 486:19

sampling 27:18 153:18

153:22

sand 286:12,13

sanitary 154:11

sanitizer 212:10

sanitizers 79:19 80:2

81:8

sapropel 229:18

sat 174:4 468:3

satellite 27:21,22 54:10

55:9,11,12 63:3

satisfactory 240:14,17

satisfied 23:9

satisfy 319:13

Saturday 144:20

Savan 219:16

save 158:20 313:2

489:19

saved 491:20

saving 304:2

savings 142:3

savvy 459:22

saw 96:4 260:10 383:18

484:12 490:11

saying 71:20 73:3

122:17 125:17 197:12

279:21 306:19 310:5

311:1,3 350:20 373:9

387:22 403:1 404:5

406:19 411:4 427:21

434:12 440:20 445:22

447:21 473:13 478:19

484:1 500:11

says 58:9 116:20 117:7

124:14 125:8,10

194:20 222:4,13,20

263:4 332:17 364:8

374:17 375:4 382:2

428:14

scale 174:13 185:4

360:20 387:21 395:1

451:5,5 454:13,18

460:20 462:4

scanned 135:10

scarcity 348:22

scene 74:12 401:19

schedule 74:19 251:7

scheduled 74:21 216:7

217:15 434:1

schedules 151:10

scheme 201:19 242:14

school 385:7 388:18

484:22

school-age 385:4

schools 477:16

science 17:17 67:3

106:17 149:10 249:3

268:18 269:5 284:6

403:4 409:1 463:15

463:19

science-based 67:9

scientific 269:8 478:3

scientist 66:11 283:16

scientists 97:15 331:12

465:15

scofflaw 319:14

scope 186:17 218:21

296:6 360:13 429:10

Scott 1:18 11:4 200:13

200:16 293:17

screen 323:13 374:16

screening 90:19

scrutiny 62:10

SDBS 212:16

se 273:10

sea 119:17
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

545

seabird 317:1

seal 222:4,15 290:11

307:20 308:1,1,15

320:22 436:4

search 25:6 38:12

88:14 90:8,9 382:21

searchable 25:4

searches 90:6,6

season 77:3 249:1

412:12

seasonal 118:22

404:16 412:9

seasonally 405:15

seasons 404:13

seat 5:21 9:6,12,16,20

10:8,13 11:1,6 12:2

70:9,14 255:17

seats 10:1 11:21 103:16

seaweed 249:20

second 10:22 11:7,16

52:19 61:2 70:19 78:8

105:18 112:1 115:16

135:22 163:22 167:1

215:3 216:18 226:13

274:22 301:3 306:7

320:2 326:1 392:16

483:20

second-generation

307:9

secondary 309:9

secondly 129:12

155:18 193:17 258:11

403:7

seconds 286:18 357:4

secret 356:14

secretary 1:13 10:10

12:5 15:15,16 16:16

30:19 91:9 95:3,4

169:13,13,16,17

Secretary's 4:5 12:5

section 32:9 51:6 52:4

56:16 58:4 99:21

116:14 128:13 213:1

213:1 291:2 294:13

294:17 307:17 430:21

441:17

sections 292:4 315:7

315:13

sector 155:21 288:8

429:19 443:11

sectors 115:3

securing 290:10

security 105:20 106:6

106:13 110:22 111:2

111:2 131:3 147:5

466:10

seed 213:8 251:22

252:3,5 364:1 451:2

seedling 455:1

seedlings 275:21

seeing 12:13,16 89:21

155:22 283:12 362:8

417:19 462:10

seeking 459:16

seeks 284:2

seen 74:8,9 148:7

277:16 307:2 336:15

370:22 447:12 460:6

sees 489:19

Seitz 1:18 10:21,21

84:22 85:15 86:2

184:8,18 185:14

186:11,18 188:6

272:16,21 317:13

371:21 373:9 386:22

387:10,17 404:1

405:10

SEKEM 286:7,8

select 137:20

selected 91:8

selecting 151:8 252:20

selection 435:6

selenium 231:19

self- 342:6 345:1

self-regulating 283:19

self-renewal 342:1

self-renewing 341:9

342:12 345:6 347:12

selfish 361:22

sell 48:5,8 172:13

177:20 242:1 280:9

280:10,14,15 288:17

372:3,6 380:18 395:9

407:18 420:16 449:21

450:12 453:22

seller 454:9

sellers 36:7

selling 47:21 72:22

280:10 377:22 455:20

459:9

sellout 306:18

semantics 302:2

semi-desert 265:4

semi-inert 362:22

semi-natural 296:15,19

300:8

Senate 239:5

Senator 365:6

send 17:7 73:2 128:2

143:17 159:6 181:14

197:22 253:20 297:5

391:19 477:9,13

497:18

sends 125:1

senior 88:1,3 91:3

378:1 433:11

sense 18:12 66:8,11,20

70:7 84:9 108:14

260:17 326:16 331:11

331:19 360:11 395:1

400:22 488:5

sensible 253:9

sensitivity 63:17

189:11 360:12

sent 162:14 174:8

355:4 391:1

sentence 183:7 225:8

356:5 428:22

sentences 476:5

separate 15:7 29:2

55:13,14 65:9 253:1

307:12,22 308:9,10

308:11 314:5

separates 92:1

September 5:19 22:10

34:6,7 37:8 147:4

223:1

sequence 457:6

sequester 349:16 386:9

386:11,16

sequestered 333:4

sequestering 386:15

446:4

sequesters 386:5

sequestration 272:17

272:22 277:3,6,8,15

277:19 385:17 386:19

386:20 393:13 408:7

serious 260:12 309:6

seriously 244:8

servants 355:4

serve 14:14 17:11

111:17 113:12 290:1

389:22

served 17:16 97:20

106:4 364:21 429:5

438:11

server 268:1

serves 105:13 141:20

service 2:19 5:11 6:2

7:3 13:11 16:12 23:11

28:5 35:17 40:10

72:16 88:2,3 96:15

104:4 105:9 106:8,14

107:3 111:18 113:8

113:13,17,21 126:15

131:17 138:11 144:1

144:4 145:4,11 146:6

146:6,8,8 147:17

155:3,11 169:9 222:6

293:4 356:1 389:22

390:3 417:11 430:11

433:6 444:17 478:7

Service's 223:3

services 108:12 113:1

134:22 143:16 196:15

442:4

serving 5:15 17:19,20

51:17 53:9

SES 88:2,3,4,4,5,9,9,14

88:15,21 89:15,16,17

90:10 91:5

SESs 90:20

session 292:1

set 38:17 44:1,2,8 46:6

46:7 68:16 88:22 89:3

106:20 107:4,5

112:12 127:5 133:7

136:5,5 141:17,19

142:9 167:5,6 168:16

174:5,11 176:21

182:18 226:8 261:15

319:13 376:15 391:15

401:15 421:2 443:12

460:9 468:19

sets 26:21 112:7 115:18

126:21,22 136:7

159:6,8 160:4 174:8

176:22 182:19 193:16

setting 92:22

settings 455:9

settlement 25:10

seven 34:7 126:8

218:11 309:18 321:10

339:6 408:18

sewage 261:20

shade 235:13

shake 479:21

shaking 479:20

shales 229:18

shallow 449:7,20

shamelessly 453:12

shape 51:10

share 13:9 42:10 247:1

335:4 352:18 373:20

380:15 421:12 459:6

473:20

sharecropping 450:1

shared 30:18 49:18

71:13 137:15

sharing 155:16 166:1

367:16

Shea 15:19

shed 107:21

shell 114:18,19,20

shift 143:21

ship 101:11 117:11

127:22

shipboard 118:11

shipment 43:1 44:5

47:11,16 48:1,10

113:4 118:10,11
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

546

123:22 125:5,16

137:18 152:12,16

180:7,18 182:9

195:18 202:10,15,19

202:21

shipments 31:1 48:22

66:16 104:6,11 135:6

153:9,10 162:5 180:5

180:5 183:15 185:10

185:17 193:3 197:11

shipped 104:7

shipper 120:13 125:6

shippers 119:4

shipping 117:11

ships 65:14 189:2

shoes 59:21

shop 126:16

short 31:18,18 71:9

121:15 189:5 350:14

450:3 453:6

short-term 340:18

shortcut 315:3 316:2

shortcuts 315:2

shortcutting 93:1

shortens 150:4

shorter 497:6

shorthand 402:10

shot 283:8

show 50:11 120:7 357:2

360:20

showed 20:9 391:17

434:20 487:17

showing 176:19 352:2

shown 314:1

shows 367:7 434:18

438:12

sick 467:14

side 5:20,20 22:6 123:5

138:9,9 142:12 145:1

146:2,2 163:20,21

180:16 196:7,8 287:2

327:4,13 336:5 448:8

470:3 479:20,21

side-by-side 433:14

sides 44:20 319:14

450:2

signal 122:16 125:20

signature 56:20

signatures 58:14 363:8

signed 15:9 375:3

significant 25:1 57:17

71:16 127:11 157:5

169:7,7 298:5 489:22

significantly 55:11

300:10 325:13

silence 100:12,12

224:12

silos 232:5

silver 212:13

similar 42:5 154:2

160:12 186:14 188:9

218:20 248:10 312:16

419:3 438:17 443:8

479:12 492:18 493:2

493:12

similarities 308:11

simple 179:1 276:9

311:10 314:12 332:12

382:17 384:14 393:15

394:4 460:12 462:2

464:7 483:11

simpler 320:5 425:3

simplified 476:11

simply 213:20 252:4

253:2 340:17,22

341:18 344:17 383:22

sincerely 348:3

single 110:10 121:20

122:9 137:10 185:7

197:17,18 198:1

237:13 448:12 489:16

489:20

single-window 110:12

131:15

sir 240:14 453:12

sit 9:7,22 10:7,12 11:6

11:20 12:1 14:9 176:3

192:6 227:7 251:12

SITC 147:20

site 29:4 120:13 279:6

380:20 425:19,22

426:2,3 444:4 496:4

497:10

site- 296:21

site-specific 236:11

349:6

sites 279:5 280:3

296:17

sitting 5:21

situation 126:6 127:14

249:13 288:3 300:12

353:12 439:11 454:15

461:9

situations 300:9 397:14

451:10 473:2

six 5:21 13:7 89:11 95:2

217:15 218:11 400:3

430:13,14,15 476:16

488:16

sizable 359:21 360:3

size 117:4 232:8 310:9

310:15 391:15

sizes 117:18

skilled 53:13 165:14

skills 91:1 165:18

skin 234:10,13,16,21

235:2 284:8

skip 488:20

skyrocketed 265:12

slaughterhouses 36:5

sleight 410:22

slide 47:2 110:14 218:9

219:8 226:13 283:6

357:2 360:20

slides 107:14 117:16

130:19 152:6 155:22

156:8 224:11 225:17

slightly 438:21

slippery 244:15 366:7

slogan 357:8 453:11

slope 244:15 366:7

sludge 392:18

slurry 452:12

small 10:13 53:9 77:6

228:9,19 253:6 256:8

261:1 267:9 355:17

391:17 410:5,15

415:20 460:19 462:4

489:9

smaller 280:18 500:4

smelly 317:4

Smith 3:11 272:19

273:3,18 282:17

289:18,21,22 293:9

293:13 294:6,22

295:3 312:6

Smithsonian 147:17

Smuggling 147:19

snakes 483:7

snuck 81:18

so-called 275:10

social 287:2 343:15

384:9

Society 227:20

sodium 21:12,13 210:7

212:14,15 220:22

236:16 262:14 317:7

434:4,17 437:2 438:5

438:9,18 443:1,3,9

software 39:12 194:6

soil- 275:17 387:7

soil-based 272:18

273:1 274:21 311:5

338:8 343:1 404:5

415:10 500:11

soil-grown 250:4 289:7

407:12 458:13 462:3

462:7

Soil-less 428:7

Soil-organic 304:5

soil-related 276:3

soilless 252:11

soils 277:4 284:7

301:19 314:16 333:3

333:9 381:6 449:20

sold 48:17 49:11,17

50:5 60:14 61:15

177:18 181:20 417:6

472:21

sole 377:1

solid 232:1 259:18

270:12 480:7,10,13

solidify 232:4

Solomon's 306:3

soluble 228:8,21

230:16 236:17,20

260:2 263:12 267:3

318:2,10 480:14

488:6 494:21 495:5

soluble- 318:7

solution 228:9 253:10

264:19 265:8,9,11

310:22 311:7 375:8

386:7 414:7 423:14

452:3 480:16 492:2

solutions 182:18

solve 489:15

solved 490:19

somebody 89:16

161:10 174:3,6

177:14 306:5 370:4

381:15 472:9

somebody's 411:6

somewhat 367:14

393:21 417:9

son 306:6

Sonny 15:15

sons 314:4

soon 63:14 108:18

122:13 219:5 391:10

sooner 78:20

sophisticated 28:12

198:5 356:20 362:9

sorry 21:15 70:11 73:5

90:3,14 97:22 131:20

231:7,10 234:14

240:15 255:17 272:19

312:1 322:12,17

324:7,10 325:16

345:3 360:4,19 396:9

406:16 415:5,6

419:21 429:14,14

439:17 440:4,19

457:16 458:4 471:6

472:13 474:10 488:20

489:1 495:20

sort 21:19 61:17 64:5

65:18 67:9 83:3 87:20

88:19 89:1 137:6

138:12 141:8 186:9

246:14 247:19 249:20

250:11 272:10 316:12
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

547

320:4 330:12 353:3,8

353:15 380:14 391:4

418:1 491:21 496:12

sorts 43:19 496:18

sound 290:18

sounds 184:11,18

191:14,15 426:11

455:20

soup 384:22 388:20

source 230:14 256:16

262:19 263:1,2 312:8

467:1 473:17

sourced 385:1

sources 20:5 32:21

230:19 259:2 262:9

262:16 265:18 317:2

494:4

South 117:22,22 317:2

Southern 420:16

Southwest 361:5

soy 104:6 262:13

311:19 312:7

soy-based 265:20

soybean 236:19 262:14

265:19

soybeans 189:8

space 250:9 270:2

391:2 460:21

Spargo 311:21

sparked 64:20

speak 15:9 144:9

194:18 231:21 242:4

253:16 274:2 287:11

296:1 339:16 348:12

377:17 397:10 409:12

416:18 436:19 458:21

465:18 482:12

speaker 277:2

speaking 39:15 276:18

353:5 389:13 445:19

speaks 142:2

special 6:6 44:16

specialist 2:2,5,14

18:22 72:8 105:21

153:5

specialists 18:21 24:3

150:16 152:21

specialization 474:18

485:16

specialized 89:1

specialty 2:18 105:18

109:11 114:15 115:2

190:4,4,8

species 296:13 297:11

300:6 344:5,7,8,10

453:1

specific 27:18 31:15

33:6 51:2 57:6 93:20

100:6 109:2 110:7

114:20 116:15,19,21

142:19 157:11 159:18

164:2,4 259:20 444:4

484:7

specifically 30:6

145:19 149:6 155:15

235:19 237:17 261:18

266:5 278:17 292:3

302:16 371:16 376:21

436:17

specifics 53:1 75:9

162:15

specified 286:2

specify 50:21 291:2

spectrum 247:6 381:6

speed 71:8 226:22

227:1

speeding 154:14

spell 176:12

spelled 129:14

spells 146:22

spend 38:9 72:12

spending 62:19 109:14

197:15 269:10 445:4

spent 268:10 315:20

367:9 384:4

Spice 9:18

spiders 483:7

Spiral 2:13 392:9 395:2

395:4

spiraling 461:9

spirit 268:22 354:5

365:13,22 366:17

388:6

split 200:21,22

splits 299:19

spoke 104:9 130:21

205:16 352:15

spoken 298:15

spot 175:2 184:16

185:3 199:19 469:14

spot-checking 184:13

spouse 102:5

spray 234:4 384:14,15

417:12

sprayed 339:8

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216:17 217:11,14

218:4 412:14 489:3

491:18

Springs 11:18

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391:11

sprung 315:11

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316:20 341:3 486:21

487:1,2,12

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35:13 45:2 55:8 71:2

71:9 72:17 95:16

129:19 239:8 256:9

265:17 355:8

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167:19 170:6

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154:16,18 219:19

298:2 458:10

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134:4 219:20 223:12

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186:13 243:5 252:3

257:6 272:14 288:2,6

288:15 293:22 312:17

370:14,17 371:4

402:3 421:17 433:22

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18:17 21:8 26:14,21

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69:16 104:2,14

107:17 115:6 117:3,4

117:19 118:2 119:3

120:4 195:14,19

201:20 242:9 243:17

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315:12 325:8 345:8

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263:2,22

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335:15

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330:16 365:4 409:14

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449:15 450:1,13

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160:9 162:21 173:13

174:16 273:11 295:18

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498:5

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266:7 270:17 349:13

390:20 440:6

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Stokie 408:19

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425:5

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175:11

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93:3,13 410:1

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219:6

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384:1

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366:20 384:13,17,19

384:22

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258:13,14,16 259:3

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388:1

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109:6 129:7 153:20

223:4,20 242:4 301:8

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398:16

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321:14

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231:13,13,17,19

232:8,15 234:10

397:17,20 398:1

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Summers 16:7 91:11

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160:19 161:4 164:6,7

164:9,16 165:15

177:13 178:13 198:1

202:8 290:6 342:21

349:11 374:7 404:20

support 22:3 31:11,14

31:20 39:12,20 45:7

67:9 93:14 106:11

126:9 145:17 205:14

218:1 219:13 224:3

239:8,12 252:9

259:10 290:9 292:14

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129:13

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332:2

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414:12

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491:4

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446:15

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147:22

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279:17 434:7,20

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239:6 256:14,22

259:11 269:11,16

308:13 317:11,15

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442:9 443:15,21

444:6,10 445:12

463:9 473:21,22

490:19

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Swaffar 1:12 10:11,11

81:17 82:8 240:21

244:10 259:15 260:8

262:6 263:4 282:7,12

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358:3,9 406:18 412:1

412:5 419:13,16,19

422:12,15 441:1

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213:16 214:21 228:9

228:13 246:20 340:14

346:9 368:10 369:4,5

396:19 398:4,7,13

399:10 402:13

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123:8 149:16 157:18

158:19,21,22 162:17

163:6 167:5,16 172:2

179:22 180:14 194:6

243:1 252:12,18,18

252:20 264:17 265:13

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277:17 286:2 302:2,4

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338:19 384:6,19

386:1,2,5 428:7 436:3

444:3 456:9 466:3

473:21,22 474:20

476:13 478:18 492:12

493:15

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tab 12:9

table 116:22 164:10

305:17 363:11 429:13

tacit 391:4

tackling 290:9

tactics 459:22

tail 361:17

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136:10 144:20 169:19

197:14,14 283:8

333:5 393:9 403:11

453:12,13 496:4

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473:7

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299:14

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42:1 47:5,8 87:19

114:12 121:18 131:10

131:11 136:5 144:5

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269:20 271:20 339:1

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392:15 425:19 450:8

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472:16 473:5,9,13

488:2

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244:10 306:5 307:14

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80:17 81:1 92:14

110:1 118:6 139:8,9

178:18 183:11 205:18

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271:18 298:7 305:13

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480:12

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183:22

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368:14

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182:1

Taylor 3:12 227:10,14

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392:21 412:5 413:4

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470:11,11 475:5

484:13,22

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179:16 335:10

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483:2

ten-fold 127:10

TenBroeck 3:13 458:4

463:1,3,5,6 466:14,20

467:2 468:1,17 470:1

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472:18

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339:22

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110:16 126:21 140:4

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432:5

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72:18 81:7,10 83:16

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340:15 341:21 343:16

344:3,17 370:9 372:4

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466:17 496:20

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284:17 383:12 395:22

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141:16 185:16 186:3

186:4,5 246:14

268:12 367:2

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442:5

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141:10 165:13 185:18

230:5 428:15,18

496:15

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248:2 303:17

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19:2,10 75:7 81:17

91:16 131:6 157:7

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192:2 220:15 251:4

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377:16 424:8 427:3

433:5 474:12

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Theo 231:7 240:21

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235:6,11

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THF 3:13 463:7

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11:22 73:18 74:8

76:15,22 177:11

239:4 240:15,18

266:19 267:2 276:16

280:5,19 281:14

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255:1 319:6 334:16

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492:2

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120:20

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120:20

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481:12

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Thursday 7:4 8:15

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501:18

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173:12

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94:10 171:21 246:8

253:18 274:10 298:16

310:15 318:1 339:6,8

348:14 351:1 407:15

445:8,9 450:19

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240:1 292:11 293:15

297:12 313:15 314:3

322:16 331:3 335:2

337:9 348:6 361:4

365:12 378:7 389:13

396:16 430:19 463:14

474:17

today's 104:18 166:11

toiling 168:6

told 50:14 74:21 169:19

423:7 451:17

Tom 1:9,12 2:9,10 6:6,7

7:11 10:18 103:21

166:8,17 182:12

205:14,21 263:4

276:16 310:13 322:3

324:8 325:11,11,13

325:17,19 326:5

328:11 329:7 374:13

424:11 448:21 458:3

458:6,10 478:12

tomato 310:10 315:19

320:1 327:19 412:17

413:19,20 414:14

415:14

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124:16 310:19 318:2

318:7 404:3 405:17

406:11 412:1,3,10,15

412:18 414:15 419:13

420:17,18 422:12,20

423:13 426:20

tomorrow 8:12 103:3

216:1 488:3,12

501:16

ton 232:13 318:9

491:20

tonnage 192:16

tons 483:7 492:22,22

492:22

tool 75:18,19 76:21

229:7 358:16 359:2

tools 75:11 290:15

top 146:14 170:18

171:19 218:8 242:10

267:19,21 268:21

449:11 479:19,22

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topic 22:1,6 32:8 33:17

81:7 84:2 166:4

254:14,22 271:19

291:9 292:1 387:15

477:10

topics 93:18,20,22

144:14 157:8

topping 313:18

topsoil 271:1,19,20

273:9

torn 306:4 308:8 326:21

tortured 396:9

total 15:8 22:13 178:1

264:10 284:7 319:19

399:14 465:2 473:3

476:6 490:11

totality 221:4

totally 249:14 298:18

306:12 328:18 370:13

415:12 420:6 486:1

488:20

touch 31:16 66:6 155:2

337:20 445:17

touched 131:19

touches 131:10

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tough 288:14,14 410:4

tour 483:15

toured 286:7

town 169:19 418:11

toxic 356:22 362:21

toxicity 207:12

toxicologist 268:16

trace 27:3 160:16 164:9

198:19

trace-back 79:8

traceability 36:3 160:11

164:17 177:13

traceback 165:9 197:21

198:22

TRACES 158:11

tracing 160:20

track 25:6 36:10 49:5

50:1,9,15,17 54:20

55:3 65:13 127:17

185:1 186:14 188:19

416:10

tracked 54:3

tracking 45:15 49:16

55:9 162:4 178:9

189:2,12 196:15

traction 126:10

trade 2:14 3:12 25:6

41:4 50:1 61:11,14

65:3 80:8 105:21,22

106:3 109:19 110:12

132:5,16 133:6,13,15

133:20 140:7,14

141:11,15 143:3

147:20 154:14 158:4

159:16 163:9 171:6

183:1 190:6 194:14

194:17 195:5 199:4

227:16 280:22 281:1

421:18

trade-related 140:10

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traders 274:4

trading 50:17

traditional 376:6

traffic 134:14 187:18

450:7

traffickers 450:10

tragacanth 219:3

trail 30:8

train 58:15 295:8

404:19

trained 72:7 76:8 79:5

180:4 294:1 295:4

training 28:21 29:2,3,10

29:12 32:7 53:14,15

55:20 59:9 78:14,15

79:10 180:12 291:22

292:15 294:2

trainings 29:5 464:16

transaction 162:1

177:15,19,21,22

transactions 160:14

161:4,16

transcriber 276:18

transcript's 432:13

transcripts 431:8 432:4

transduction 435:6

transfer 121:9 200:6

transferred 147:8,9

transformation 44:7

transition 13:15 16:18

17:5 80:21 83:11,12

87:15 94:21 132:12

220:6 303:14 430:4

transitional 430:2

transitioning 297:7

314:8

transitions 340:7

translated 78:12,19

136:4

translates 137:13

translation 142:8

transmit 61:13

transmits 124:16

transmitted 123:1

125:9 197:16

transparency 42:3

402:16 405:22 406:8

459:16

transparent 41:9 53:12

168:7 373:7

transplant 258:12,13

transplants 236:6

245:6 282:11

transport 452:11

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445:15

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traveling 7:13

travesty 332:11

treat 102:6 195:21

202:19,20 364:9,9

469:1,2

treated 47:16 48:18

49:1,1 50:4 181:20

202:4 296:19

treating 474:5 501:15

treatment 149:18 151:7

151:9 152:17,18

180:19 202:11 203:1

203:3,7 421:9

treatments 151:9,13,14

151:15

trees 449:12

tremendous 6:9 19:5

26:6 115:10 198:16

223:8

tremendously 40:12

trend 24:9 352:19,22

trends 36:10 181:21

182:10 460:6

trial 418:12

trials 264:16 386:1,2

trick 73:7 102:6 187:17

459:21 474:5 501:15

tried 442:5

tries 336:20

trigger 192:17

trimmings 485:10

trio 212:9

trip 330:11,16,22 365:2

triple 265:13

tripled 188:16

trophic 482:8,10,16,18

trophy 222:3

trouble 328:20 351:14

troubling 417:16

trout 77:20

trowel 367:10

truck 425:17 426:14

trucking 426:11
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323:11,15 352:10

357:7 374:8 394:4

395:21 462:8 465:15

500:15

truly 15:10 23:15 35:9

45:20 156:16 164:9

269:9 279:13 294:18

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411:1,7 461:13

trustee 251:13 254:12

Trustees 9:14

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truths 336:10

try 55:1 91:20 92:2

128:17 131:14 135:14

140:20 143:9 168:3

191:3,21 225:11

308:21 326:19 339:22

348:9 352:18 382:16

403:8 440:10 457:13

492:20 493:7

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112:15 119:8 121:1

169:11 178:20 185:4

186:21 188:18 189:9

189:11 194:16 243:6

261:11 265:1 272:9

277:13 278:7 288:21

299:9 319:12 328:20

331:13,22 332:5

352:5 359:16 366:8

372:9 383:13 470:14

470:17 489:14 496:17

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tube 377:6

Tucker 2:6 5:3,8 6:5,14

6:20 7:8 12:22 13:5

14:20 19:4 61:7 62:17

64:4 66:18 67:2 68:6

69:3,6,9 70:10 71:10

74:7 75:7 76:16 78:4

78:21 80:20 81:22

82:9 83:9 84:11 85:13

85:22 86:4 87:6,19

90:9 91:10,13 104:9

107:1 109:13 151:19

155:6,16 156:5,7

169:11 172:7 173:8

173:17 175:9 178:5

181:8 196:6 197:13

199:10 201:4 221:12

221:14

TUESDAY 1:7

tunnels 482:20

Turkey 104:7 189:14

turn 13:17 16:13 19:12

26:3 33:17 39:21

48:11 107:7 143:21

149:7 155:6 156:4

158:9 162:12 166:7

221:11 287:2 314:11

345:21 362:19 394:1

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480:20

turned 239:17 286:11

315:18 355:16 497:2

turning 50:7 460:10

turns 72:4

tweaking 140:3

tweaks 63:20

twenty 110:13

twice 309:17 391:1

two 9:9 15:2,7 20:2

22:15 23:10 37:15

41:10 47:20 48:8

50:13,22 54:11,11,12

56:4,10 60:6 70:5

72:1 78:7 98:11

114:21 115:13,16

123:15 152:6 153:8

169:15 180:14 186:4

187:1 194:12 198:10

201:14 210:14 211:7

213:5,21 214:16

219:15 221:3,9 243:1

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274:10 279:3 289:8

296:18 305:13 310:5

316:21 320:8 355:16

360:16 380:12 390:13

409:21 413:13 440:6

440:15 450:11 455:19

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two- 11:19

two-thirds 215:6,7

216:22 364:4 391:8

type 88:11 160:18

201:6 212:10 230:1,2

248:8 370:16 446:2

types 36:5 123:16

128:2 252:11 254:3

386:6 404:7 454:7

474:22 480:10

typical 186:19 187:1

231:20 322:15

typically 118:9 205:2

214:20 228:18 231:17

248:20 405:8

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U 3:5,10 264:9 268:9

U.S 2:14 28:9 30:3,11

31:20 38:14 41:8,11

41:13 42:6 43:4,8,11

44:16 45:4,15 46:13

46:16 49:5 69:16

106:1,14 114:8

134:17 138:10,17,22

145:13 148:1,20

158:2,7 181:21

198:10 201:21 239:5

280:8,10,19 282:20

288:2,6,9 313:18

376:11 438:17

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Ugo 347:3

ultimately 87:2 119:20

120:17 123:3 150:19

152:16 182:19 366:9

Um-hum 84:18 91:15

umbrella 274:3

un-inspectable 364:16

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75:10,13,15,17 76:16

76:20 402:21

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24:15 291:15

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398:12

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underline 169:7

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270:13 306:20 465:17

481:13

undersecretary 15:17

15:22 16:3,15,19 17:4

95:4 145:1 169:18

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67:11 102:17 111:13

157:1 178:17 184:9

185:4 186:21 197:3

199:12 200:11 234:15

238:4 269:14 270:11

272:5 294:1 303:18

349:15 362:10 372:9

375:16 391:3 393:4

394:5 399:6 409:1

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45:7 68:4 83:3 144:2

159:22 204:1 237:3

254:2 371:7 397:11

422:19

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247:9 249:13 462:12

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255:1,5 453:13

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84:13 193:7

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257:12 429:18

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UNFI 3:6 251:10,11

253:1

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460:1

uniform 421:16 440:16

unintended 321:18

unintentional 187:6

Union 3:9 42:21 275:3

279:3 280:21 281:18

361:11 389:11 437:18

437:19

unique 136:4,6 165:22

427:13

unit 391:14

United 1:1 29:19 43:2

43:18,20 117:2,9,12

117:21 118:5,21

129:15 131:22 146:13

146:21 149:5,7,14

151:13 152:14 185:7

187:18 193:4 256:19

322:19 323:3 393:4

uniting 274:4

universe 160:1 194:9

university 90:5 106:16

386:3 472:18 473:18

473:21

unlabeled 402:21

unmistakable 499:20

unpack 404:8

unpaid 96:21

unstable 486:1

unsure 99:10

unusually 412:12

up-and-coming 462:5

up-pot 455:2

UPC 253:4

upcoming 160:8 217:9

219:13

update 4:9 7:9 8:4,9

12:19 13:10,16,19,20
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219:9,10 275:3

295:18

Update/ 4:15

updates 213:21 214:2

217:7 369:15

updating 55:20 369:17

upfront 475:12 478:14

upper 282:14

ups 56:14 194:15

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455:9

urea 494:20

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253:20 259:10 297:4

390:5,14 391:21

429:19 435:19 436:5

439:19 477:8

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Urvashi 3:10 264:2

268:5,6,9

USA 330:14

usage 209:1 358:22

439:12 442:20 443:1

490:18

USAJOBS 88:10,11,13

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32:12 38:5 42:7 47:7

85:8 93:11 95:13

99:13 107:2 113:10

113:11,20 114:6

131:17 144:11,19

145:17 147:9 163:3

181:5 202:13 222:4

239:8,17,19 244:2,12

271:4 297:16 306:19

307:1,20 308:15

309:3 355:22 357:13

362:14 366:4,20

386:2 394:12,12

406:5,20 434:21

459:12 460:11 462:10

464:16

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106:7

useful 42:14 81:8 331:9

439:3,4

user 34:19 113:22

115:3 131:20,21

147:13

users 115:14,16,17

116:4

uses 128:1 132:17

228:3 370:8 372:7

usual 59:21

usually 89:11 202:14

481:4 486:11

uterus 397:15

utilization 114:10

utilizing 290:14

UVM 419:1

V

vacancy 89:15

vacant 70:14

vacation 408:2

Valentine's 153:8

valid 45:3,19 46:12

161:9,16

validates 46:19

validation 154:12

Vallaeys 3:13 427:6

433:10,11 436:15,20

437:16,21 438:7

439:21 440:3,6,8

441:3,5

valuable 250:9

value 96:7 229:21

248:21 271:3 279:7

364:8 408:5,5 421:11

valued 188:12,15

315:16

values 352:7 353:13

403:3 408:22

Van 256:10

vanguard 403:14

variety 17:18 131:19

132:1 139:13 143:18

301:13 483:16

various 93:5 106:2

130:10 133:6 134:4,6

134:12,22 136:8

137:7 138:15,16,17

139:5 140:10 141:1

142:11 143:16 148:1

167:15 170:17 171:4

219:6,20 252:13

365:11 390:9 451:10

487:13

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vary 496:6

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vast 22:21 242:22

321:11 421:22 442:14

489:4

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vegetable 9:18 10:14

152:4 154:20 190:8

264:9 301:4 313:18

314:19 321:2 330:6,9

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154:1 181:18 235:13

245:8 246:9,13

301:14 313:19 362:16

404:22 414:5 417:2,7

449:22 458:13 473:2

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vegetative 475:19

vehicle 134:12,16

361:12

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verbal 209:4 213:21

214:2

verification 44:14 46:19

154:13 254:5 372:14

verified 41:11 299:2

406:6,20

verify 43:3 104:17

verifying 38:10

vermicompost 497:12

497:19

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242:6 247:7 322:7

324:20,21 325:3

348:2,15,15 352:14

409:11 412:8 416:18

420:14,16 449:5,5,6

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version 44:3 57:1

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versus 131:20 261:6

305:15 387:7 414:6

424:21 439:3 466:7

479:13 480:10

vessel 180:8

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338:1,3,5,21 358:3,9

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97:10 236:9 237:16

276:8 304:8 306:18

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318:21 344:1 351:3

352:1,8,18 353:1

370:8 398:16 408:17

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views 21:1 29:5 247:2

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124:3 127:8 142:4

185:6 193:5

vision 433:19

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421:3 427:14,18

441:19 444:15

voted 213:19 214:15

356:3 359:11 397:1

votes 214:16 215:11,14

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wait 127:2 293:11

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78:9 86:2 102:11

120:18 131:10 153:3

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373:10 396:14 398:2

399:22 400:7 405:14

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169:1 249:12 410:9
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warning 225:5

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Washington 11:5 74:10

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128:15 136:14 193:9

210:22 220:8 255:4

263:16 286:12,13

367:18 409:20 431:18

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466:19

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219:2 257:18 258:13

258:14,16 259:2,19

260:3 264:21 265:2,6

265:6 266:19 267:14

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284:8,14 295:20

300:17 302:9 310:20

311:6 341:2 348:22

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389:12 411:5 444:7

464:16 465:4,18

466:2 467:11,16

471:21 476:17 479:4

479:7 481:2,3,11,11

481:16 489:19,21

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water-based 266:20

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watering 242:9 422:5

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65:6,7 66:22 77:3

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119:14 121:20 124:7

136:13 137:15 144:8

146:11,16 147:12

161:14,20 175:11

178:3,21 184:17

185:16 188:2 189:4

190:15 197:9 200:6

203:17,21 232:3

242:14,18 243:6

253:2 256:22 264:16

269:8 273:13 274:22

276:11 285:20 296:13

299:18 300:17 309:9

318:13 320:6 337:4

337:11 340:8 347:11

350:2 352:8 353:3

383:22 385:9 392:20

423:16 425:9 442:10

443:15 447:6 460:18

463:16 467:3 479:16

480:5,6,16 482:18

485:2 490:9,11

ways 31:21 68:12 72:1

131:19 138:17 162:16

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187:1 247:20 249:8

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438:19 443:5 444:10

470:7

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web 25:21 465:14,19,20

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38:5 60:16 88:10

90:11 143:12 144:20

152:4 156:1 209:11

209:21,22 211:14

212:2,18 214:7

218:10 295:22 327:8

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418:15 484:20 485:11

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127:9,10 266:2 306:4

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404:22,22 412:12

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96:10 100:4 268:4

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319:21

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329:15 334:17 355:7

357:16 359:19 362:17

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400:1 431:14

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whole-heartedly

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Wholesum 2:16 235:12

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143:18 242:16 298:1

298:21 299:12

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297:20 298:9 461:10

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146:3,8 295:21

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122:9 124:17

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Winona 427:10

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406:13

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Wisconsin 11:14 386:3

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Wise 337:1

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226:21 278:11 372:7

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witness 57:15 164:3

418:10

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286:7 316:22 394:13

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61:21 62:8,14 63:16

70:7 71:7 79:21

178:19 192:14 247:1

297:22 326:5 335:3

352:17 387:5 461:19

Wood 2:21 363:18

woods 261:12

word 174:4 182:10

183:9 197:12 269:20

286:4 290:20 327:8

327:11 332:13,14

382:18,21 383:14

429:22

wording 296:21

words 85:10,15 98:1

112:11 122:8 171:14

176:5,11 223:6

275:16

worked 5:20 38:20

64:16 82:15 101:15

106:14 109:20 132:22

141:11,14 154:8

181:6 187:13 313:13

318:16 319:5 338:11

349:18 421:10 422:5

453:9 465:9 470:14

488:14

workgroups 168:4

working 27:16 30:13

31:18,19 39:17 51:13

52:19 66:3 93:3 95:5

95:20 99:12 110:19

113:15 119:12 130:12

133:12 135:5 136:20

138:9 141:16 142:20

143:3 153:14 154:9

157:1,21 158:12,21

160:5 170:1 173:19

176:15 179:17,21

180:22 182:7 193:17

203:17 240:6 245:20

266:21 290:12 291:13

292:5 296:3 365:6,9

369:7,14 399:17

411:14 423:17 457:8

499:16

workload 217:18

works 28:15 86:18

87:21 90:11,13 124:7
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175:12 198:17 200:7

222:13 372:10 384:7

world 42:4 59:16 118:1

244:16 269:12,15

296:9 298:12 310:13

337:6 353:5 384:3

393:5 417:5 433:16

491:15

worldwide 26:14

worms 417:18

worrying 193:10

worse 411:20 460:9

worst 481:9

worth 177:20 433:21

wouldn't 172:21 179:4

204:10,22 333:22

359:14 406:20 484:1

485:13 491:16 493:19

wrap 188:18 201:14

225:11 453:16

wrapping 220:21

wreck 404:19

write 147:2 276:19

383:10

writers 440:13

writing 91:21

written 15:2,5 81:13

101:20 174:5 253:15

367:2 368:7 398:3,16

438:15

wrong 113:2 119:7

143:10 196:4 342:13

362:1 407:11 449:13

wrongly 315:11

wrote 34:9 337:21

WSDA 11:4

X

X 384:15

xanthan 219:4

Y

Y 384:15

year 6:16 9:12,19 10:1

10:5,9,19,22 11:7,16

21:20 22:10 23:2 24:4

24:9 25:2 29:10 34:11

39:12 48:20 52:19

57:14 63:15 64:8,9

71:6 73:21 75:16

118:4 122:15 133:2

137:5 153:1,2 173:22

175:22 194:12 197:18

217:13,15 291:21

303:4 319:15,16

343:20 362:18 377:21

397:13 404:16 408:1

413:13 421:2 423:1

432:18 436:16,18

452:16 476:6 485:20

488:7

year's 218:1

year-old 241:22

year-round 118:21

261:14 313:20 412:9

yearly 152:22

years 5:21 7:1 9:9 13:7

17:15 23:4 26:7 35:2

50:13 51:1 54:12,12

56:4,5,10 82:15 84:1

92:18 110:13 126:7,8

126:11,12 133:1

150:3 154:1 169:15

188:11 189:7 193:12

194:13 210:11 228:2

228:11 243:9 244:6

246:14 247:16 256:11

264:14 265:12 268:11

268:15 276:6 283:10

297:2,13 299:4 301:8

309:18 314:1,13

315:17 316:21 317:4

317:7 319:5 321:10

323:9 329:2 330:10

339:7 340:7 346:19

355:14 363:22 364:21

365:1,3 366:6 376:4

390:1 394:16 401:13

402:18 410:4,11

413:13 414:14 416:22

417:8 418:13 419:2,3

420:21 430:17 439:22

449:10 450:3,15,15

453:2,4 458:16

470:18 488:17 497:1

497:6

yellow 225:3,4

yesterday 15:21 16:5

16:20 18:1 169:19

305:20 334:12 335:15

yields 249:8 314:21

York 106:16 413:16

young 102:11 323:14

325:6 337:10 350:18

350:21 351:13,19

352:16 353:1,11

354:8 418:2 462:4

475:18

younger 353:3 459:14

youth 461:12

YouTube 29:4

Z

Zealand 406:12

zinc 21:12 210:7

zone 237:6 477:1 478:4

486:11,17 500:8

501:5

0

0.1 231:21

1

1-2 490:6

1,000 472:10

1,200 128:9

1,300 290:4 396:13

1,700 274:18 277:22

278:12 280:17

1.65 188:17

1.7 393:10

1:30 206:4

10 74:13 113:5 128:7

193:8 194:22 215:11

215:14,14 297:2

311:3 323:3 343:9

417:7 418:13 419:3

439:14

10-10-10 417:12

10,000 243:9 278:8

10:09 103:12

10:30 103:10

10:40 103:13

100 177:16 185:6,10,12

192:13,18,19,22

193:2 194:22 195:13

241:17 297:13 320:2

320:9 388:3,9 397:5

397:22 399:12,15

401:2 416:22 445:9

484:21 485:15 487:18

100-150 175:22

1020 54:3,18

103 4:13

1031 52:14

11 147:4

11:00 102:7

12 4:5,6 264:14 283:10

343:9 404:15

12:30 192:4

12:50 206:8

13 96:1

13,000 275:9

14 114:14 117:6 118:5

118:15,18 122:14

127:3 193:1 204:6

215:13

142 401:14

15 14:9 113:5 194:22

215:10 227:9 266:6

266:10 419:3

15,000 73:22 177:17,20

150 177:17

16-0-0 311:19

165 15:8

17 22:10 114:7 268:10

283:8 377:18 379:20

381:7

17011 53:6 54:13 56:11

186 389:7

187,500 24:4

18th 322:15

19 401:14

1900s 231:16

1917 416:22

1930s 341:12

1937 116:17

1950 362:14 417:3

1960 283:7

1965 417:7

1971 409:14

1972 330:10

1974 417:15

1977 393:10

1989 420:16 458:17

1993 110:6

1997 392:12

1999 362:15

2

2 343:10 453:2

2,000 395:8

2,300 147:8

2.5 445:8 497:6

2:00 102:7 206:4,5

2:10 206:9

20 228:1 235:21 236:15

257:7 259:5 274:10

314:1 319:19 320:11

323:3 340:7 346:19

380:5 439:14 443:2

465:1

20,000 118:12 395:11

200 241:18

200,000 177:22

2000 21:10 57:19

145:21

2000s 137:3 316:16

2001 145:22 147:4

429:5 430:11,18

2002 430:16 432:14,15

432:16

2003 147:6 432:19

2004 432:14

2005 40:15 57:19

430:11 432:14

2006 429:6 430:16,18

432:14

2007 150:1

2010 40:15 51:15 82:16

237:17 309:19 313:13

318:17,22 383:10
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388:5,6,12

2011 188:13,15

2012 40:16,19 133:10

2013 34:10 40:19 64:20

2014 34:4 52:14 133:9

214:9

2015 34:6 369:8 434:7

435:11

2016 21:10 37:8 122:4

133:2 141:1 170:16

188:13,17 216:12

291:13 434:20

2017 1:5,7 5:6 12:8

13:17 14:4 19:13,14

22:16 24:21 34:8 40:3

52:8 128:10 216:17

217:8 223:1 235:19

2018 34:5 51:9 59:1

63:14 64:2,3,5,13

217:11 218:4 254:15

2019 215:18,18 216:4,8

217:21

2020 217:11,16 218:12

218:18

2030 275:7

205 57:1

205-602 371:3

205.101 290:21 291:2

205.303 291:6,12,20

292:4,9 294:15,21

205.307 291:7,10,18

292:4,6,8 294:11,19

205.601(j)(6) 428:13

205.606 213:1,4

2050 343:21

205601 211:3

206 4:16

224 4:18

24 124:2 374:20

24/7 148:5

245 1:9

25 251:6 316:17 365:1,3

25-fold 189:7

250 395:5

250,000 118:4

26 30:17 313:20

29 235:19

3

3 126:13 369:12 463:11

499:11

3- 407:20

3-fold 189:5

3-week 407:21

3,000 395:7

30 121:5 125:2 232:13

256:8 286:18 301:1,7

340:7 418:17 420:21

458:16

30-cow 449:18

30-day 123:13

30,000 77:10 118:12

300 298:5 365:2 418:17

300-acre 416:17

31 1:7

311 24:19

319.56-4 150:11

34 216:14

35 207:3 215:15 227:17

232:9

350-some 408:13

350,000 118:4

36 18:9

37 4:7 153:17

379 23:2

38,000 314:8

39,035 22:13

4

4 165:5 369:12 398:11

498:17

4-month 407:20

4,000 395:7

4.2 189:8

4.4-fold 189:8

4.5 498:21

4.9 473:2

4:22 329:9,15

4:30 329:10

4:31 329:16

40 125:2 256:11 261:18

280:18 363:14,22

364:21 380:15 418:17

439:14 450:14,15

489:21

40-plus 410:11

412 188:12

42 401:13

45 330:10

450 92:9

453 33:22

46 217:16

462 23:18

47 110:15 111:5,19

112:16 123:21 133:5

157:2 167:3,21 473:4

48th 377:21

5

5 4:2 128:7,7 193:8

194:21 393:11 437:10

439:12 498:17,17

5,000 127:9 363:8

5.5 498:21

50 136:20 146:3 190:11

232:13 236:1 237:18

238:14,19 250:19

257:9 263:10 266:8

275:8 299:4 362:18

439:14 450:15 472:10

475:11

50,000 152:22

500 127:9 313:19 326:8

399:14,15

501 4:20

5031 295:6

50s 401:16

52 4:9 217:13

52- 408:20

523 202:13,13

548 188:13

56 153:22 363:22

5611 217:6

59 4:11

6

6 439:14

6- 449:15

6-year 497:3

6:00 416:9

6:15 416:12

60 57:13 261:20

600 188:15 450:4

602 370:2 371:16

604 371:19

605 368:12

606 219:2 368:12

60s 401:16

62 401:13

6513(b)(1) 428:1

6513(g) 428:4

68 449:7

7

7 4:3 57:1 146:1 343:10

7:00 416:10

7:20 501:15

7:22 501:21

70 434:21

70,000 374:19

70s 401:16

72 92:11

75 24:9 70:21

776 473:11

79 434:9

8

8 4:4 449:9

8-cow 449:15

8(e) 116:14 128:13

8:30 1:9 501:17

8:35 5:2

80 395:5

82 435:12

86 434:11

86,269 374:17

89 390:7

9

9 146:2 343:20 449:9

90 282:3

90,000 153:1

93 15:9

95 282:3 312:20

99 231:18 261:21 297:8

99.9 231:20
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

557

Fall 2017 Meeting

USDA/NOSB

10-31-17

Jacksonville, FL
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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

 + + + + +

 FALL 2017 MEETING

 + + + + +

 WEDNESDAY,

 NOVEMBER 1, 2017

 The Board met in Florida Ballrooms A, B & C

of the Omni Jacksonville Hotel, 245 Water Street,

Jacksonville, Florida at 8:30 a.m., Tom Chapman,

Chairman, presiding.

PRESENT

TOM CHAPMAN, Chair

ASHLEY SWAFFAR, Vice Chair 

JESSE BUIE, Secretary

SUE BAIRD

HARRIET BEHAR

ASA BRADMAN

A-DAE BRIONES

LISA DE LIMA

STEVE ELA

DAVE MORTENSEN

JOELLE MOSSO

EMILY OAKLEY

SCOTT RICE

DAN SEITZ

FRANCIS THICKE
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STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, NOSB Advisory Board

 Specialist, National Organic Program 

DR. LISA BRINES, Ph.D., National List Manager, 

 National Organic Program 

DR. PAUL LEWIS, Ph.D., Director, Standards

 Division, National Organic Program

DEVON PATTILLO, Materials Specialist, National 

 Organic Program 

DR. JENNIFER TUCKER, Ph.D., Associate Deputy 

 Administrator, National Organic Program; 

 Designated Federal Official

ALSO PRESENT

ISAURA ANDALUZ, Cuatro Puertas 

ANJA ANDERSON, International Pectin Producers 

 Association 

JOHN ASHBY, California Natural Products 

CHRISTIE BADGER, National Organic Coalition 

COLEHOUR BANDERA, Kanalani Ohana Farm 

JULIA BARTON, OEFFA 

DAN BENSONOFF, NOFA/Mass

JOHN BIERNBAUM, Michigan Organic Food and Farm 

 Alliance; Michigan State University 

JOHN BOBBE, OFARM

JEFF BOGUSZ, Ferrara Candy Company 

LYNN COODY, Organic Produce Wholesale Coalition

JENNY CRUSE, Accredited Certifiers Association

MARIANNE CUFONE, Recirculating Farms Coalition

KELLY DAMEWOOD, CCOF

KAY FELDMAN, Beyond Pesticides 

LEE FRANKEL, Coalition for Sustainable Organics

MAX GOLDBERG, Organic Insider; Living Maxwell

TOM HARDING, Green Ag Supply 

CAMERON HARSH, Center for Food Safety

DAVID HILTZ, Acadian Seaplants Limited 

KIKI HUBBARD, Organic Seed Alliance 

ANDY HUDSON, Westbridge Agricultural Products

LAUREN JOHNSON, Organic Seed Alliance 

WANDA JURLINA, CP Kelco 

KEITH KANDT, NatureSweet 

MARNI KARLIN, Karlin Strategic Consulting; 

 Nature Ripe Farms
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ALSO PRESENT

PAT KERRIGAN, Organic Consumers Association

LORI KLOPF, ICL Food Specialties 

JESSICA KNUTZON, CP Kelco 

ANDREAS KUENKEL, BASF

PHIL LAROCCA, LaRocca Vineyards; CCOF

NATHANIEL LEWIS, Organic Trade Association

EMILY LYONS, International Dairy Foods 

 Association

MELINDA MAYFIELD, Innovacyn 

SUZANNE McMILLAN, ASPCA

MARTY MESH, Florida Organic Growers; Quality 

 Certification Services 

RON MITCHELL, Local Greens Farm

TRACY NAZZARO, Traders Hill Farm

MARISOL OVIETO, Northwest Horticultural Council

CHRISTOPHER PIERCE, Heritage Poultry Management 

 Services, Inc.

ROBERT RANKIN, IFAC 

GERALD ROBERTSON, Reiter Affiliated 

TERRY SHISTAR, Beyond Pesticides 

JESSICA WALDEN, QAI

STEPHEN WALKER, MOSA Certified Organic 

JULIE WEISMAN, Elan Incorporated; Flavorganics 

 LLC

DAVID WILL, Chino Valley Ranchers 

GWENDOLYN WYARD, Organic Trade Association

ABBY YOUNGBLOOD, National Organic Coalition 
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 CONTENTS

Public Comment Period. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Compliance, Accreditation, & Certification

 Subcommittee

Proposal:

Eliminating the incentive to convert native

ecosystems to organic crop production. . . . . . 255

Excluded operations in the supply

chain (uncertified handlers) . . . . . . . . . . 255

Crops Subcommittee

Topics:

2019 Sunset Substances - review

Chlorine materials (calcium hypochlorite,

chlorine dioxide, sodium hypochlorite) . . . . . 320

Herbicides, soap-based . . . . . . . . . . . . . 328

Biodegradable biobased mulch film. . . . . . . . 335

Boric acid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 340

Sticky traps/barriers. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 344

Copper sulfate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 346

Coppers, fixed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 346

Humic acids. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 350

Micronutrients (soluble boron products). . . . . 354

Micronutrients (sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or

silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese,

molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt). . . . . . . . 357

Vitamin B1, Vitamin C, Vitamin E . . . . . . . . 360

Lead Salts . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 361

Tobacco Dust (nicotine sulfate). . . . . . . . . 370

Proposal:

Fatty Alcohols . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 374

Anaerobic digestate - petitioned . . . . . . . . 399

Strengthening the organic seed guidance. . . . . 420

Aeroponics/Hydroponics/Aquaponics/

 Containers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 427

Discussion Document: Field and greenhouse

container production . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 428

Public Comment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 456

Adjourn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 542
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (8:34 a.m.)

3 MR. CHAPMAN: We are starting this

4 morning with public comments. And up first is

5 Dan Bensonoff, followed by John Biernbaum. 

6 Sorry, I have to actually do a formal something,

7 something. Michelle, can you pull up the public

8 comment slides again?

9 All right, as Michelle pulls up the

10 public comment slides, just a quick reminder, and

11 I will make it extremely quick. So for folks

12 that weren't here yesterday, this is the Public

13 Comment Policy from the NOSB Policy and

14 Procedures Manual.

15 Comment time for this meeting is three

16 minutes. We provide a lighting system that warns

17 you about the time. It starts off green, and

18 turns to yellow. At red, three minutes have

19 expired. At that time, I ask you to please

20 finish up your sentence, out of respect for other

21 commenters and the Board.

22 At that moment, we'll open it up for
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1 questions from members of the Board. If you have

2 a presentation, there's a remote that you can use

3 that will be on the stand to advance your slides. 

4 I will be asking everyone to start their comment

5 by stating their name and affiliation for the

6 record.

7 We ask that you disclose all relevant

8 affiliations pertaining to matters of business

9 before the Board. If members want further

10 clarification, I encourage you to ask questions

11 after the commenter has completed their comments.

12 Next slide, Michelle. No proxies are

13 allowed. Commenters should refrain from making

14 personal attacks or remarks that might impugn the

15 character of an individual. If I hear something

16 of this nature, I will interrupt the commenter

17 and ask them to refrain.

18 And then our last request is that

19 comments please be clear and succinct. And I

20 also ask for that in the questions and answers

21 period as well, that we try to answer the

22 question as directly as possible.
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1 We have a very full public comment

2 schedule. We jam-packed as many public

3 commenters as possible into the timeframe that we

4 had. And unfortunately, we have to conduct some

5 business this afternoon, so we're going to have

6 to really stick to our time schedule. So this is

7 a warning to the Board.

8 But I probably will act like I did

9 near the end of the day yesterday to try to keep

10 us on schedule, limiting questions as much as

11 possible. Please save your questions for the

12 folks that you really want to have that dialogue

13 for so we can ensure we have enough time to get

14 through all the public comments.

15 Also, I would be remiss if I didn't

16 remind folks to turn off their cell phones and

17 turn their computers on silent out of respect for

18 everyone in the room.

19 With that, we'll get started. So Dan,

20 if you could come back up. Sorry for bringing

21 you up and sending you back. So up first is Dan,

22 and Dan, you can start with your name and
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1 affiliation for the record.

2 MR. BENSONOFF: Sure. Good morning,

3 everybody. Thank you for allowing me to speak

4 today. My name is Dan Bensonoff, and I'm a

5 vegetable grower, but I'm here primarily

6 representing the Northeast Organic Farming

7 Association of Massachusetts.

8 We have about 1,000 members, and that

9 includes both certified and non-certified

10 farmers, and gardeners. We appreciate all of the

11 important work that the Board has done on the

12 question of hydroponics and container systems.

13 This is a decision that will define

14 the shape of organic farming. And therefore,

15 it's important we consider it from many

16 perspectives.

17 I know you've all had your fill of

18 this issue, not just in the last few days, but

19 over the last few years, so I'll be brief and

20 I'll just try to add my two cents.

21 I want to first acknowledge that at

22 this NOSB meeting, I've been surrounded by so
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1 many of my personal mentors and elders of the

2 organic community, folks like Eliot Coleman, Jeff

3 Moyer, and many others without whom there would

4 be no organic movement in the US, soil based or

5 otherwise.

6 Certainly, I would not be farming

7 without their contributions, that's for sure. 

8 And so many of these elders came out here because

9 they care deeply about organic farming. And

10 regardless whether we think that hydroponic and

11 container growing has merit, we ought to respect

12 the vision of those who paved the way for us.

13 To do otherwise would be like walking

14 into a foreign city and demanding they change

15 their way of life. I certainly don't want to be

16 guilty of that kind of disrespect.

17 Many of the members I'm here to

18 represent recognize that hydroponic and aquaponic

19 systems have many merits, especially in terms of

20 their ability to provide year-round vegetables in

21 urban and drought prone areas.

22 But we also recognize that organic
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1 farming has never been just about resource

2 efficiency. While many contemporary organic

3 consumers turn to organic produce because they

4 don't want toxic pesticides on their food,

5 organic farmers know that the heart of organic is

6 not what we don't do, but what we do do.

7 And what we do is work with biological

8 systems. The ideal of organic farming is to

9 mimic evolutionary relationships that connect

10 plants with fungi and soil and animals into a web

11 of interrelationships. It is the management of

12 this ecological balance that defines organic

13 production.

14 Hydroponic systems work in a different

15 paradigm from soil based systems. The growing

16 medium is referred to as a substrate, an anchor

17 for the plants. Conditions such as temperature,

18 light, fertility are fully controlled and nature

19 is generally held at bay as much as possible.

20 Organic soil growers think of plants

21 as one element within a larger ecosystem. It is

22 this focus on whole systems that is critical, not
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1 the exact amount of liquid or solid fertilizer or

2 the ratio of one to the next.

3 This whole system's approach ensures

4 that organic farmers are land stewards first and

5 plant factories second.

6 Aside from the philosophical

7 differences, I'll wrap up there. So I'll just

8 wrap up by saying we support soil based systems,

9 and I'm sure Emily's going to ask. We would be,

10 as much as, you know, it's hard for us to say

11 this, I think we would be willing to go on with

12 the compromise that the Crops Subcommittee came

13 up with. Thank you.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Questions from the

15 Board?

16 MS. BEHAR: We were hearing yesterday

17 that there was some greenhouse operations in soil

18 that were not really rotating crops. They were

19 rotating tomatoes and compost.

20 MR. BENSONOFF: I work at one of

21 those.

22 MS. BEHAR: Okay. So can you explain
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1 why it is that a crop rotation, when I was doing

2 many more organic inspections in the Midwest,

3 there was a requirement that there was a rotation

4 in that greenhouse, at least with a cover crop in

5 between the cash crop.

6 MR. BENSONOFF: That's a great

7 question. So first I should clarify that my farm

8 is not certified organic as of right now. I will

9 say that in general, so the rotation is not

10 necessarily very clear. If, for example on the

11 farm where I work, we grow tomatoes for a few

12 years, and then we'll usually grow either

13 cucumbers or eggplant or peppers in an off year.

14 We also have moveable tunnels so that

15 does ensure some rotation in some of our tunnels. 

16 As far as I know, a lot of the farmers that I

17 work with don't rotate primarily because of their

18 markets.

19 But it really does depend on the

20 certifiers and what they require. And NOFA does

21 not do certifications in Massachusetts, it's done

22 by base state. So I can't speak to that
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1 directly. I know that on our farm, we rely

2 primarily on compost, chicken manure, and a

3 little bit of fish emulsion for our fertility in

4 our houses.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa?

6 MR. BRADMAN: I just, my question is,

7 and one of the things that's challenging is that

8 we have certifiers in several different parts of

9 the country that do approve hydroponic, do

10 approve --

11 MR. BENSONOFF: That's right. 

12 Including Massachusetts, by the way.

13 MR. BRADMAN: -- do approve container.

14 And so it's, there's this tension. I wonder

15 where you fall out on that, or do you see there's

16 some sort of compromise that can kind of

17 reconcile that diversity?

18 MR. BENSONOFF: Well, I think that, I

19 mean, that patchwork right now isn't in fact the

20 problem. And I would also add that it's not just

21 that some certifiers do include container

22 systems, it's that they look at them very
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1 differently as well.

2 In Massachusetts, we have three

3 hydroponic facilities that are certified. And I

4 know our certifiers are very stringent in their

5 requirements, and look really carefully at the

6 systems approach. I can't speak with certainty,

7 but as far as I've heard in other states, it's a

8 little looser in terms of their requirements of

9 those container systems.

10 So I would just say that whether

11 there's a compromise reached, I think it's going

12 to be really difficult to enforce the compromise

13 that the Crops Subcommittee put together.

14 I think that it is better than

15 nothing, but I think that it's going to be a

16 challenge to enforce, and certifiers are going to

17 have to really learn a lot in terms of, you know,

18 how do you measure fertility at the outset, how

19 do you make sure that the nitrogen requirements

20 are met?

21 MR. BRADMAN: Well, I mean, just to

22 take it out a little bit further though, what
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1 about compromise in terms of labeling and

2 accepting some diversity because that's where the

3 differences I think are even larger. And it

4 seems to me there's an opportunity for having

5 strict standards, absolutely.

6 MR. BENSONOFF: Yes. I would like to

7 reward container growers who do not use toxic

8 inputs, who rely on organic fertility. I think

9 that they should differentiate themselves. I

10 honestly don't know whether it makes sense to put

11 that into the USDA Organic program or not.

12 I have mixed feelings about that. I

13 will say that as I'm looking at this label that's

14 behind you all, behind that word organic I see

15 soil based system. So I don't really know if it

16 makes sense to put organic hydroponics.

17 I worry about how prominent that would

18 be in the marketplace. Would the organic be in

19 big bold letters and the hydroponic sort of be a

20 little asterisk beneath it? Or would it really

21 be clear to consumers. That's part of the

22 question I would have.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Joelle?

2 MS. MOSSO: You made a comment in

3 regards to the organic community, or the consumer

4 that made primarily by organic due to less toxic

5 pesticide. I'm curious as to your opinion about

6 where their opinion lies in regards to this

7 issue, because they are definitely part of the

8 continuum of organic.

9 MR. BENSONOFF: Yes, so that was based

10 primarily on anecdotal evidence. We work with a

11 lot of organic consumers, and I do a lot of

12 events where I speak to people about what organic

13 is.

14 I personally think that we need to

15 balance what organic consumers want with what

16 organic farmers define their systems as and how

17 they intended their systems to run.

18 So I think in this conversation

19 there's been maybe a little bit too much focus on

20 what organic consumers think it is. And most of

21 them have a pretty basic understanding. I mean,

22 they think it means something that's healthier,
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1 something that's less toxic. And that is

2 somewhat true.

3 But there's so much more to it than

4 that. So I would say I think that you're going

5 to find a lot of different data out there if you

6 look at the survey results because as many of you

7 know, it depends on who's asking the questions

8 and how those questions are framed.

9 So I would take survey results

10 somewhat with a grain of salt depending on who's

11 asking them. But I would say that the producers

12 are the ones who put these systems together,

13 they're the ones who advocated for them from the

14 very beginning. That's really who we need to be

15 looking at first.

16 And consumers are going to follow

17 regardless of what we put in place. They're

18 going to continue to stick with organics as they

19 have, as long as it's clearly defined and as long

20 as those who started the movement continue to

21 rely on it.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Emily?
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1 MS. OAKLEY: I don't normally want to

2 comment, but I just want to say that your answer

3 to that question would have been almost identical

4 to mine. So thank you.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. We are now

6 15 minutes behind schedule. Up next is John

7 Biernbaum followed by Isaura Andaluz. Sorry if I

8 butchered that. John, you can start with your

9 name and affiliation for the record.

10 MR. BIERNBAUM: My name is John

11 Biernbaum. I'm here representing the Michigan

12 Organic Food and Farm Alliance who I serve as the

13 Chair of the Board of Directors that I've been on

14 for the last nine years, and I'm also here as a

15 faculty member in the Department of Horticulture

16 at Michigan State where I've been for over 30

17 years, and I teach.

18 My job really is to help people

19 understand the why and the what of organic

20 farming. I teach the organic farming principle

21 and practices course. I also was a member of the

22 NOP Organic Task, excuse me, the Hydroponic Task
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1 Force.

2 My 40 plus years of career and life

3 experience related to both conventional plant

4 production and greenhouses where I taught

5 greenhouse management for 30 years and helped

6 many greenhouse growers learn how to fertilize

7 their plants with water soluble inorganic

8 fertilizers.

9 And then the last 20 years of working

10 with organic farmers and working with students to

11 start the student organic farm which is a 48 week

12 CSA, that has been certified since 2004 using

13 high tunnels and, you know, closed production,

14 has set me in a unique position to really stand

15 between the perspective of the keep the soil in

16 organic view, as well as the coalition of

17 sustainable organics where they're more

18 supporting the hydroponics.

19 I would ask you as the NOSB Board

20 members, particularly those of you that are

21 undecided, to please vote on the first three

22 proposals to prohibit the use of hydroponics,
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1 aeroponics, and aquaponics.

2 Clearly, it's very difficult for me to

3 see the word organic and hydroponics together. 

4 It's unfortunate that that has been allowed to

5 happen, but it never should have been allowed to

6 happen, and we need to stop that.

7 Regarding the second proposal about

8 the containers, that's a little more challenging. 

9 I fully support the system that would be in line

10 with the IFOAM and the EU grown in soil, in the

11 ground, under the sun.

12 But I also spent 15 years of my life

13 working on how we could grow in containers if it

14 was allowed in organic. And I can tell you that

15 I do believe it is very possible to meet the

16 definition as it's been provided. I think it's

17 actually an elegant, simple way of defining it,

18 well maybe not simple.

19 It would be difficult for people to

20 understand why it works, but we have been working

21 for many years making compost from local

22 materials, leaves, wood chips, granular wood
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1 chips, grass, hay, and straw, and we can grow

2 plants for many months, many years in that media

3 successfully, without making a lot of soluble

4 inputs.

5 So it's -- yes, I figured it was about

6 time there. Off by just a little bit.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Francis?

8 DR. THICKE: Thank you, John. 

9 Yesterday, Jerry Davis told us that in his

10 experience, he has some really good compost, and

11 he could grow tomatoes from start to finish. And

12 then when he ran out of that good compost, they

13 wouldn't go very far, they faded out at three

14 months or something.

15 Could you tell us about what it takes

16 to make that kind of good compost, and have you

17 done that?

18 MR. BIERNBAUM: Yes. I was glad to

19 hear him say that, and I think that's really the

20 question that we're after, and that compost

21 unfortunately is not well defined and it can have

22 low nitrogen content from as little as one
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1 percent to we're making things that have three

2 percent.

3 So very big difference in the nitrogen

4 content, very big differences in the stability. 

5 It might be used after a few months. We're

6 working with things that we're using that are

7 over a year old.

8 And then how do you get the nutrients

9 into a form that are going to be there for long10 term, slow release. You pointed out late

11 yesterday that it's not about putting in a fish

12 meal or, you know, plant meal or whatever in and

13 expecting that to release the nitrogen.

14 We have to get that nitrogen first

15 into a biological form, and then into a form

16 where it's release is restricted either

17 chemically by having it be more complex, or

18 physically by having it occluded or contained in

19 particles where it's released over a longer

20 period of time, or by affecting the biology.

21 We can think about how to manage that. 

22 And unfortunately, composting has been a waste
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1 management strategy. How do I get rid of this

2 stuff. And what we have to do is see it in new

3 eyes as a resource management strategy.

4 I need to grow plants, I want to make

5 this media, how can I do that effectively. And

6 that's what I've used my greenhouse background, I

7 know what it needs to look like in a container,

8 and then I work to make the compost look like

9 that.

10 Last idea is that just one compost

11 probably won't work. We're working on taking

12 multiple composts, so ones that are less mature

13 that will continue to release over a longer

14 period of time with one that is very mature that

15 will provide the immediate release that you need

16 so that you can get this combination.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Dan?

18 DR. SEITZ: You mentioned that because

19 of your experience working in greenhouses,

20 working with organic farmers, working with

21 conventional farmers that you were uniquely

22 placed to really be able to understand this
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1 issue.

2 And you gave us your opinion on why we

3 should vote against allowing hydroponics and so

4 forth. But you didn't break out your reasons. 

5 If you could just do that succinctly, having had

6 these experience, what are the two or three

7 reasons that stand out to you as the reasons why

8 we should vote in the way that you advocate?

9 MR. BIERNBAUM: I have experience

10 using hydroponics. As a young person, I helped

11 my grandfather and uncle build a gravel culture

12 greenhouse and I learned how to make the

13 hydroponic, the solutions and such. And I've

14 also dabbled in aquaponics.

15 What you're doing in those systems is

16 trying to create a condition where the nutrient

17 levels are usually consistent, and so that the

18 plant is not stressed, so that you're able to

19 maximize growth, and maximize yield, particularly

20 under conditions where you can also manage the

21 light and the temperature to minimize that

22 stress.
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1 That to me does not sound like an

2 organic system, you know, where we're, the plants

3 are typically stressed and limitations are part

4 of that system as the plant is developing, and

5 that that's an important part of how a plant

6 becomes resilient to further stresses and how we

7 can help that plant to be, well there's a better

8 word than resilient, but able to tolerate things

9 in its condition and survive when conditions

10 change.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave? Asa, then Sue.

12 MR. BRADMAN: Last night, I reread the

13 Task Force report for on hydroponics, and you

14 were on the committee. This report is

15 bifurcated. You know, there's almost, like,

16 three reports or two reports.

17 And I just want to comment on what

18 that process was like and you know, was there an

19 attempt to get consensus. And then the last

20 section there's proposals for ideas about

21 labeling. And I'm just curious to hear a little

22 bit more about what that process was.
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1 MR. BIERNBAUM: In hindsight, I think

2 it's unfortunate that that happened. You know,

3 what we did was did what we were charged to which

4 was to provide you information to the NOSB to

5 help make a decision.

6 But in some way we abdicated that

7 decision by not having, you know, that discussion

8 and making those decisions with our own

9 committee. But that's really, we weren't told to

10 do that. We were told to provide information we

11 were told not to necessarily make the decision.

12 The views are so different, all right. 

13 And hydroponics, as you've heard over and over

14 again, is a system that works. All right? But

15 I've been taught a philosophy of approaching

16 different perspectives and how do you decide, and

17 the first is to recognize that almost all ideas

18 have some value.

19 All right, hydroponics has value. But

20 most ideas are incomplete. All right, thinking

21 of hydroponics as an organic system to me is an

22 incomplete thinking. They're not aware really of
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1 what organic farming is.

2 On the Soil Subcommittee, if you add

3 up the experience of just three of the members,

4 there was 100 years of experience. In between

5 the six or seven of us there was over 160 years

6 of organic farming experience.

7 On the other committee, there was, you

8 know, maybe one tenth of that. You know, they

9 didn't have the same perspective of organic

10 farming. And so just because, you know, they

11 view, well maybe I can best sum it up myself.

12 Twenty years ago, I read the OFPA and

13 said this is great, I can grow with all these

14 fertilizers and these inputs and make this work. 

15 But I didn't stop there. I should say it was the

16 same conclusion that many of these hydroponic

17 growers came to.

18 I went to meetings and visited farms,

19 and I learned that no, that's not correct. That

20 really those methods were intended to grow

21 transplants. And because the rule does not

22 correctly define and differentiate transplants
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1 from harvested crops, that led to the

2 misinterpretation that has allowed organic

3 farming to happen, or excuse me, organic

4 hydroponics to happen.

5 That never should have been allowed to

6 happen. We heard it yesterday from three

7 different NOSB members that that was never the

8 intent. But our committee had to wrestle with

9 what we were assigned to do, and it wasn't a

10 great situation.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Sue, then

12 Harriet.

13 MS. BAIRD: Hi, John. Thanks for, he

14 came down and taught a class for us at the MOA

15 one year, so thank you for that. And I know you

16 teach greenhouse production, you did at our

17 conference.

18 Do you produce year-round in Michigan

19 in your greenhouses?

20 MR. BIERNBAUM: Yes, primarily more in

21 high tunnels, unheated greenhouses. But we also

22 have some heated greenhouses. I have one that's
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1 been in use with soil for 20 years with only

2 compost and mineral amendments.

3 MS. BAIRD: Do you modify the

4 environment?

5 MR. BIERNBAUM: In that one, there is

6 heat to heat the greenhouse, yes.

7 MS. BAIRD: And lighting?

8 MR. BIERNBAUM: No.

9 MS. BAIRD: No?

10 MR. BIERNBAUM: For transplants, for

11 crop production to harvest, no. But for

12 transplant production, it would sometimes be

13 supplemental light use.

14 MS. BAIRD: There is supplemental

15 light. Okay, another question, and this is not

16 fair to ask you, I should have asked the

17 gentleman in front.

18 But it appears, here in the Northeast

19 anyway, probably because of the short growing

20 time for tomatoes, that the certifiers are not

21 allowing, or not requiring crop rotation because

22 of the timeframe. You know, they get off the
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1 crop of tomatoes, and then they say they don't

2 have time to put in any kind of cover crops.

3 What is your interpretation of that,

4 because you teach NOP compliant systems. And of

5 course, we know 205 says producer must implement

6 crop rotation.

7 MR. BIERNBAUM: I would agree with

8 your assessment, that certifiers are allowing

9 that. I believe that is wrong. You know, I

10 worked for years when I started how to develop

11 rotations for greenhouses.

12 All our greenhouses are fully rotated

13 between cool season and warm season, and we deal

14 with the problem that you have a high

15 concentration of solanums in the summer and you

16 have a high concentration of brassicas in the

17 winter. All that can be dealt with, and it

18 should be dealt with.

19 And it's because of the certifiers or

20 because of the interpretation, you know, that it

21 doesn't have to happen in greenhouses because

22 there was never a greenhouse regulation done by
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1 the NOP that those things are allowed to happen.

2 So I wouldn't blame the farmers, but

3 it is wrong.

4 MS. BAIRD: Okay, thank you.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet?

6 MS. BEHAR: So you work with a lot of

7 young people. And I know that we hear a lot that

8 hydroponics is an access point for beginning

9 farmers and small scale farmers to move into

10 farming, and that without hydroponics, these

11 people would not have access to being farmers.

12 So for the people that you are

13 teaching in your school, do you find that they've

14 been able to become successful small or mid or

15 large scale farmers in soil, or do you think that

16 we're closing a door on young people to get into

17 farming?

18 MR. BIERNBAUM: I've literally worked

19 with hundreds of students over the last 15 years

20 who have gone out, and many of them I can, could

21 probably name 20 or 30 who have gone out and

22 either worked on farms or started farms, none of
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1 them hydroponically.

2 Any of the students in class when I

3 came back and I talk about being on the task

4 force, are appalled at the idea that hydroponic

5 would be allowed as organic. I have not met one

6 student that, well I take that back.

7 There's maybe one or two, you know,

8 that started out thinking that maybe you could do

9 it organically. But when explained what the

10 limitations are, you know, accept that they're

11 not aligned. They are antithetical, opposite,

12 you know, they're just not the same thing.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I have one

14 question for you as well. You mentioned just

15 right there that organic farmers are appalled by

16 hydroponic organic, and you mentioned three

17 previous NOSB members who testified about this.

18 And I probably should have asked them

19 this question as well. But as far back as 1995,

20 the NOSB wrote something along the lines of

21 hydroponic production and soil media may be

22 labeled organically, organically produced and
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1 shall be allowed if provisions of OFPA are met.

2 Now there's a lot of debate that's

3 gone on around what was truly meant by that, but

4 that line is in there. It opened the door. That

5 is the basis for this opening that we're dealing

6 with now.

7 And I don't see any similar statement

8 in anything around, like, opening the door to

9 other clearly prohibited practices in organic

10 like GMOs. That door would not be slightly even

11 cracked like that.

12 So how do you rectify that that's back

13 as far as 1995, but you're saying it's appalling

14 and no one would ever, ever consider these to be,

15 you know, used in the same sentence?

16 MR. BIERNBAUM: I would rely on what

17 I heard yesterday, and plus I've asked that

18 question over and over again through the process

19 is that you've just said it was the NOP that said

20 that.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: The NOSB. That's from

22 the National Organic Standards Board, the very
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1 first one.

2 MR. BIERNBAUM: So the NOC, that

3 National Organic Coalition?

4 MR. CHAPMAN: National Organic

5 Standards Board, this board in 1995. That is

6 some of the members that have testified here.

7 MR. BIERNBAUM: Some of the members,

8 okay. So you know, again --

9 MR. CHAPMAN: It was a unanimous vote. 

10 That's all 15 members wrote hydroponic production

11 and soil media may be labeled organically

12 produced, shall be allowed if all provisions of

13 OFPA have been met.

14 MR. BIERNBAUM: My understanding, what

15 I've heard by many of them in the committee, the

16 people that talked was is that they never, when

17 they said as long as the other provisions were

18 met, that they didn't think that that would ever

19 be possible, that it was coming back to this idea

20 of a compromise that they thought they were

21 yielding to some people on the committee that had

22 that perspective, but that it was a minorities
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1 perspective.

2 And rather than fight it then, that

3 they compromised because they thought it would

4 never go forward. Is that I think is the answer

5 to your question. And again, it's what I argued

6 on the task force. It is unacceptable to leave

7 these important issues, you know, without using

8 accurate words.

9 The best example is a greenhouse in

10 the NOP from the beginning has been defined as an

11 enclosed, a permanent enclosed structure. That

12 is not acceptable. A greenhouse is a structure

13 with a transparent roof, and that has led to many

14 issues that are problems with lighting and things

15 being done in buildings because greenhouse wasn't

16 defined properly.

17 So accurate use of words and really

18 dealing with these things, which you're having to

19 deal with now, is very important.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you

21 very much. Up next is Isaura followed by Terry

22 Shistar. Isaura, can you start with your name
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1 and affiliation for the record.

2 MS. ANDALUZ: Good morning. Isaura

3 Andaluz, and I'm with Cuatro Puertas, a community

4 development corporation in Albuquerque, New

5 Mexico. I also sit on the board of OSGATA and

6 the steering committee for the Organic Farmer's

7 Association.

8 I've been a grower and a beekeeper for

9 about 30 years. And through Cuatro Puertas we

10 have an organic seed breeding program where we

11 work with community in trying to get new farmers

12 to build seeds, I mean grow seeds.

13 In Albuquerque, we I work with seeds

14 resilient to temperature extremes. Our normal

15 late spring highs of 90 degrees went up to 100

16 degrees last year, and 105 this year. New

17 seedlings baked in the intense heat, and even

18 established plants had scorched edges.

19 Eventually, almost everything

20 recovered, and the fruit trees produced

21 abundantly. All I did was watch and water. 

22 These plants were in the soil in the ground.
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1 Organic farming is part of a complete

2 living system that works with nature. Everything

3 is connected. There is not one person,

4 corporation, or government that can create a seed

5 or soil. No one.

6 Seeds are the memory of life. Soil is

7 a reservoir of water, bacteria, and fungi. 

8 Without soil, no seed can continue its journey

9 into the future, and no one, humans, animals,

10 insects, or reptiles will have food. No one.

11 The organic movement was born of the

12 simple but profound recognition that all life on

13 dry land, on mother Earth comes from the soil. 

14 It addresses health and the possibility of a

15 future. It is about ethics and the foundation of

16 society.

17 The soil food web is educational bible

18 by which we understand the process and is a

19 product of a practical model of application for

20 the creation of a truly sustainable agro21 ecosystem.

22 That is a system that functions as a
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1 coherent organism, with no dependents on external

2 inputs beyond what nature provides, sun and rain

3 and hydrologic flow, and no accumulation of

4 harmful outputs.

5 In other words, no waste. That is the

6 definition of sustainability, and what is at risk

7 now. I've participated in two rounds of the

8 USDA's Agriculture Center 21 committee which

9 served to rubber stamp recommendations from the

10 farm bureau and the biotechs.

11 These recommendations were later used

12 to justify decisions made by government agencies. 

13 So I am well aware of the influence of money in

14 our public process. The last AC21 recommendation

15 made all crops' identity preserved except for GE,

16 genetic engineered.

17 This means that the farmers assume all

18 responsibility to protect themselves from G

19 contamination or damage, further threatening an

20 organic farmer's right to farm, and human

21 dignity.

22 Hydroponic systems do not come from
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1 the Earth. This is an idea that comes from

2 corporate boardrooms and the industrial

3 manufacturing world. It is about distorting

4 organic standards and definitions. It addresses

5 only the marketplace and is focused on short term

6 transactions.

7 As such, this is yet another foolish

8 attempt to convert sustenance and nourishment,

9 the gifts of the commons into commodities,

10 proprietary formulas, and profit, and it seeks to

11 do this again by limiting the workforce, the

12 living creatures who make up the soil on which

13 our lives depend.

14 Let's take this idea and return it to

15 the fungal substrate where it belongs. And I

16 also want to say that as a community economic

17 consultant, I did work with an aquaponics

18 operation in New Mexico that was doing Tilapia

19 fish farming, which failed.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Questions? 

21 Harriet?

22 MS. BEHAR: Thank you for bringing the
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1 soul to organics.

2 MS. ANDALUZ: Thank you.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next we

4 have Terry Shistar followed by Marni Karlin. 

5 Terry, you can start with your name and

6 affiliation for the record.

7 MS. SHISTAR: Hi. My name is Terry

8 Shistar and I'm on the board of Beyond

9 Pesticides. We have a long history of

10 involvement with organic production, and here are

11 some of our present and former board members.

12 We submitted comments on all of the

13 issues before the Board at this meeting. A

14 couple of years ago, NOP tried to rewrite the

15 NOSB charter to say that most of the Board's work

16 was done.

17 Well, that's not true. The NOSB has

18 entered a new stage. The original work of

19 establishing a National List and regulations

20 defining the program has been completed, and the

21 NOSB has entered the stage of refining the

22 program so that it remains consistent with
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1 organic values as organic production grows.

2 Some of those refinements have been

3 made, such as the rearrangement of the sunset

4 schedule to even out the workload of the Board,

5 while others are awaiting final action by NOP.

6 There's a great deal more to be done

7 though. Some of this work is work that has been

8 put off, some arises as the maturing of organic

9 into a nearly $50 billion enterprise, and some is

10 unanticipated.

11 Most importantly, the NOSB must ensure

12 the adequate oversight of the program that's in

13 place to ensure consistent certification and

14 enforcement of the law to protect organic

15 producers and consumers.

16 While the work of examining materials

17 as petitioned at sunset continues, some items on

18 the NOSB agenda at this meeting are examples of

19 issues that need to be addressed by that mature

20 NOSB.

21 Preventing certifiers from certifying

22 organic, or certifying as organic hydroponic
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1 operations, eliminating incentives to convert

2 native land to organic production, clarifying

3 that prohibition of genetic engineering and

4 ensuring that all steps in the organic supply

5 chain are covered by enforcement.

6 But there are other issues that should

7 remain on the work agenda. Evaluating so called

8 inert ingredients which make up the largest and

9 often the most toxic part of allowed pesticides. 

10 This has been identified as unfinished business

11 since OFPA was passed.

12 The NOSB has recommended a process

13 which requires as a next step a memorandum of

14 understanding between USDA and EPA. Looking at

15 the need for and characteristics of materials

16 used as cleansers, disinfectants, and satirizers

17 to ensure that necessary materials are provided

18 on the national list, and that they are evaluated

19 using OFPA criteria.

20 Examining contaminated inputs and

21 means to eliminate them and mitigate their

22 inputs, evaluating materials such as marine algae
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1 whose use in organic production contributes to

2 ecological harm as organic production expands in

3 scale.

4 Enforcement of imports as organic

5 production, both globally and domestic producers

6 rely on imported feed grains, and restoring the

7 meaning of sunset to ensure the continuous

8 improvement of organic integrity. Thank you.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Terry. 

10 Emily, Dan, Dave.

11 MS. OAKLEY: This is actually a

12 question for the NOP regarding one of the

13 comments that Terry made, the comprehensive

14 review of sanitizers that we've asked to have on

15 our work agenda.

16 I was wondering what the status of

17 that was. And assuming that that will be, I do

18 assume that that will be approved as our requests

19 typically are.

20 DR. LEWIS: Thank you, Emily. So that

21 was a question that was asked yesterday by

22 Harriet. So we just received the work agenda
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1 item. We need to talk with our new leadership

2 team that just came on board. So looking forward

3 to sharing that with them and discussing it in

4 terms of next steps.

5 As I mentioned yesterday also, this is

6 a new topic that we want to be thinking about. 

7 And if the public has any information to help the

8 Board as part of this possible work, we encourage

9 you to provide public comments on this issue.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Dan?

11 DR. SEITZ: Could you help me

12 understand a little bit more the inert issue? 

13 Maybe just tell us a couple of examples that if

14 we knew those were inert ingredients that we

15 allow just because we call them inert, we might

16 be troubled or even horrified to find out that

17 those are allowed under our standards.

18 And then also, would it be through our

19 technical reviews, asking for that type of

20 information if we asked that any inerts be

21 identified and be described, would that be a way

22 for us to begin looking at inerts?
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1 MS. SHISTAR: Okay.

2 DR. SEITZ: I know it's a big topic.

3 MS. SHISTAR: To answer the first

4 question, for nonylphenol ethoxylates are one,

5 that's one example of some toxic, endocrine

6 disrupting chemicals that are used as inert

7 ingredients in some pesticides. They're used as

8 surfactants.

9 BHA, or BHT, maybe both BHA and BHT

10 are also examples. I don't have a list in front

11 of me, but last meeting we submitted a report

12 that contained the whole list of those that are

13 used in organic production.

14 As far as the Board has actually set

15 up a process for reviewing inerts. And I don't

16 know, if the process were to if you look at a

17 pesticidal active ingredient that's allowed in

18 organic, and look at the inerts that are

19 associated, you might find, you might run into

20 problems with confidential business information.

21 So the process that was recommended by

22 the Board involves divorcing the inerts from the
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1 actives, though looking at them together is

2 actually better. But so the process that was

3 suggested by the board involves looking at them,

4 working with EPA and EPA's Safer Chemical --

5 MR. BRADMAN: Safer Choice Program.

6 MS. SHISTAR: Safer Choice Program,

7 yes. To evaluate them. And that seems to be a,

8 it's a good way to go because working with Safer

9 Choice Program involves EPA, it uses EPA to

10 produce basically technical reports that the NOSB

11 can then evaluate.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Terry.

13 MS. SHISTAR: That's the way I see the

14 system working, anyway.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave?

16 MR. MORTENSEN: Terry, I, as a new

17 member of the NOSB, I'm really amazed at the

18 workload. It's enormous, and it's a volunteer

19 board. I'm curious if you have any ideas about

20 how a group like yours or others that have been

21 in attendance here could be more actively engaged

22 in working with the Board to move things along.
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1 Something like the inerts, and several

2 of us have been looking at that. And you know,

3 we want to get that going for sure. That is

4 going to be a huge task, I can say just having

5 read the documents that have been written so far.

6 Any thoughts about how organizations

7 like yours could help in this process more

8 actively?

9 MS. SHISTAR: All you have to do is

10 ask. Really. And we're happy to help.

11 MR. MORTENSEN: I guess I would just

12 personally encourage folks in the room to be

13 thinking about how we, you know, think about ways

14 of supporting the work of the Board more

15 actively. And I'm not sure that actually leaving

16 it to Board members to ask for help is the

17 solution. Just --

18 MS. SHISTAR: Well, okay, so here's

19 another --

20 MR. MORTENSEN: And I bring this up

21 because we, you know, just imagine, I was

22 involved with some other things with the EPA over
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1 the last ten years. EPA has a whole Staff that

2 reads public comments, 4,000 public comments on

3 24d, right? And then I would work with the EPA

4 folks that had read through the public comments,

5 we're reading 2,400 public comments on top of all

6 this other stuff.

7 And so I'm just, I just am sure that

8 there must be a better way than we're proceeding

9 right now to help get the work of the Board done.

10 MS. SHISTAR: Okay, so this is what

11 the open docket was created for was to allow a

12 two way exchange in between the meeting public

13 comment times so that the Board could indicate to

14 the public what they're working on, what

15 information is needed, and we could submit

16 information to you when it's not that busy time

17 when you're reading 2,400 comments or something.

18 And I think the process has been set

19 up and can work well, but it really requires a

20 two way communication. It requires the Board to

21 let us know what information you need in the

22 interim.
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1 I'm a fairly faithful reader of the

2 subcommittee notes, but they don't always say

3 what information you need. And when I find that

4 there's information that I can provide, I try to

5 provide it.

6 But I think that using that open

7 docket system as a two way means of communication

8 could really be helpful to the Board.

9 MR. MORTENSEN: Thank you, Terry.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. We're going

11 to have to move it along. I request that Board

12 members keep their questions succinct so we can

13 get to lunch sometime today. I know it's still

14 early in the morning, but we are currently 30

15 minutes behind, which means we will work through

16 lunch if that's what's necessary.

17 So Marni Karlin is up next, followed

18 by Jay Feldman. Marni, if you can start with

19 your name and affiliation for the record.

20 MS. KARLIN: Thanks, Tom. Good

21 morning. My name is Marni Karlin and I'm an

22 independent organic policy consultant with Karlin
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1 Strategic Consulting, and today I'm testifying on

2 behalf of Nature Ripe Farms, a certified organic

3 producer of blueberries in containers.

4 I would first like to acknowledge the

5 strides that have been made on this issue of

6 certified organic container production. For the

7 first time, this meeting's documents demonstrate

8 a consensus on the Board that container

9 production should be allowed in organic with

10 appropriate standards.

11 And that consensus should be

12 applauded. It has taken a lot of hard work to

13 get here. Of course, the question remains what

14 do those standards look like, and that's where

15 the rubber hits the road.

16 It is consistent with OFPA and with

17 the principles underlying organic that we focus

18 on an outcome based standard rather than

19 prescribing amounts of inputs that are allowed,

20 because of course organic is not a set of

21 standards for input and substitution, but rather

22 about creating a set of sustainability outcomes.
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1 So we look at fostering a national and

2 diverse soil ecology and maintaining and

3 improving biodiversity, and soil and water

4 quality. We identify a variety of site specific

5 approaches that would achieve those outcomes,

6 approaches like incorporating hedgerows,

7 recycling water and substrate materials, using

8 borders.

9 This is exactly how we, as an organic

10 community, have looked at the crop rotation

11 requirement as it pertains to perennials for

12 years. We look at the desired outcome and

13 determine whether a grower of perennials utilizes

14 organic compliant methods that achieve those

15 outcomes.

16 So where do we go from here? The

17 minority view is a step in the right direction. 

18 And that along with the consensus that container

19 production should be allowed in organic

20 encourages me that despite how it might feel

21 right now, we are actually near compromise.

22 Someone yesterday commented that it's
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1 really frustrating to feel like we're in this me

2 or thee situation, and it's easy to feel that

3 way, both in this room and in our society writ

4 large these days.

5 But I don't think it has to be that

6 way. I believe we can take a step back, identify

7 where we have consensus, and create a we

8 standard, not a me or thee standard but an

9 outcome based standard that works for the organic

10 sector.

11 And what the organic sector wants is

12 a strong, consistently applied outcome based

13 standard. I encourage the Board to send this

14 proposal back to the Crop Subcommittee for

15 continued work on such an outcome based standard,

16 something that focuses on ensuring outcomes

17 rather than prescribing inputs.

18 I commend you for your progress, and

19 implore you not to walk away from this important

20 issue, but rather to see it through and continue

21 to work towards that standard. As a sector, we

22 need a clear standard that can be applied
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1 consistently, and we rely on the NOSB to create

2 such things.

3 And finally, I would really like to

4 thank each of you for your service on this Board. 

5 I know it's hard work. I know it's a volunteer

6 board. And at times you probably feel like

7 you're just angering everyone.

8 But that's actually when we're close

9 to the compromise that moves us forward, and I

10 implore you to keep working on that. Thank you.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you,

12 Marlin.

13 MS. KARLIN: Thanks, Tom.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Jay Feldman

15 followed by Nate Lewis.

16 MR. FELDMAN: Good morning. I am Jay

17 Feldman, Executive Director of Beyond Pesticides,

18 served on the NOSB from 2010 to 2015, and chaired

19 the Crops Committee for a time, and then four

20 years on the Inerts Task Force. So there's a lot

21 of history there on inerts.

22 I would like to talk a little about
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1 the process based approach that OFPA is, and the

2 law, the science, and the practice that is

3 involved in that decision making.

4 The role of the NOSB is a key issue I

5 think that we need to address here, the NOSB

6 being the keeper of the organic label. First and

7 foremost, the Board must ensure that there's

8 public trust in that label, which translates into

9 market demand.

10 We heard yesterday about protecting

11 the brand. Integrity of the process establishes

12 that trust.

13 Secondly, the context of the decisions

14 before you is critical. Yes, the job of the NOSB

15 members to bring the voice of the stakeholder

16 group that you represent to the discussion.

17 However, in the context of the law, we

18 must adhere to the criteria established by the

19 law and the policies and procedures established

20 by the Board, previous Board decisions, and the

21 underlying and emerging science, or new science.

22 We must recognize there is a balance
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1 struck so that the public trusts the process. 

2 You have to be willing as a Board member to

3 accept that not everything can be labeled as

4 organic.

5 And remember why the Board was

6 established. You are on a Board to one, guide

7 the process to tell USDA what is good for

8 organic, what is legal under the law, to

9 challenge the deficiencies that undermine the

10 value of the label.

11 That goes to enforcement, weaknesses

12 in the certification and inspection process,

13 failures of government to follow Board

14 recommendations, and you must help guide the

15 organic community to continuously improve as part

16 of the five year sunset review process.

17 Government is too often crisis driven. 

18 The NOSB, the reason you're sitting there is to

19 seek to avoid crises. Government waits for

20 Washington Post articles and law suits, then

21 focuses on putting out the fire.

22 The NOSB must seek to avoid fires by
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1 having a pulse, or knowing the pulse of the

2 organic community and the issues before us.

3 Organic grew with every food safety

4 crisis that was before EPA and FDA. Even though

5 FDA and EPA saw those crises coming, organic will

6 shrink with every organic crisis if the NOSB

7 doesn't get out in front of these issues.

8 Organic differentiates itself in the

9 market by design and standards, alternative

10 labels. Every time an alternative label appears

11 on a product alongside an organic, the organic

12 seal, it undermines public trust in organic.

13 Isn't organic regenerative of the

14 land, non-gmo, humane to animals, bird friendly,

15 rainforest friendly, protective of those who work

16 organic farms? It should be if it isn't.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you,

18 Jay. Up next is Nate Lewis followed by Rex

19 Kittle. And I don't see Rex Kittle walking up,

20 so Nate, hold on one second. After Rex Kittle is

21 Phil LaRocca. Just make sure Phil knows he's on

22 deck after that. Nate, you can start with the
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1 name and affiliation.

2 MR. LEWIS: Sure. Good morning, my

3 name is Nate Lewis, Farm Policy Director for the

4 OTA. I also chair the Washington State

5 Department of Agriculture's Organic Advisory

6 Board, I own and manage an organic livestock

7 crop, wild crop and aquiculture farm in Olympia,

8 Washington. Our initial inspection is schedule

9 for two days from now. And I'm on the Board of

10 Directors for the Olympia Community School where

11 my daughter's a third grader in Joanna's class.

12 First, I would like to express OTA's

13 strong support for the CACS's efforts to

14 eliminate the incentives to convert native

15 ecosystems to organic production.

16 It's important that organic premiums

17 not be the driving force behind destruction of

18 our natural resources. However, we do believe

19 that additional flexibility is necessary in order

20 to enable farmers to clear land so they can

21 expand their operation. Please consider some

22 additional reasonable flexibility to this
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1 proposal.

2 On the issue of hydroponics and

3 container production, I want to be clear, as I

4 thought I've been in the past. OTA supports the

5 prohibition of hydroponics and aeroponics in

6 organic production.

7 We would have supported the Crop

8 Subcommittee recommendation to prohibit

9 hydroponics at this meeting had you retained the

10 original definition for this type of farming

11 practice.

12 The new definition which centers

13 around production practices -- which centers

14 around which production practices hydroponics

15 doesn't conform to is not a good definition.

16 In order to move this discussion

17 forward and give USDA recommendations that can

18 actually become regulation, we need to return to

19 definitions that accurately describe what these

20 systems are, not what they are not.

21 With respect to container production,

22 I urge each and every one of you to think about
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1 what are the goals that container guidelines

2 should ensure are achieved at the farm level,

3 presence of mycorrhizae, fostering of

4 biodiversity and cover cropping, maintaining

5 stable nitrogen cycles.

6 The Crop Subcommittee, in my opinion,

7 did not do a good job of outlining what the goals

8 were for container production in the proposal,

9 nor did they relate the arbitrary nitrogen

10 requirements back to those goals. How can we be

11 sure that 20 percent limit on liquid feeding and

12 50 percent nitrogen in the pot before the crop is

13 planted will achieve these goals when we don't

14 know what these goals are.

15 I encourage you to come to consensus

16 on what the goals are for organic container

17 producers, and urge, and use those goals as a

18 roadmap for the standards recommendation.

19 Some in the organic community have

20 decided we need to have a war around this issue. 

21 I would argue however, we're a lot closer to

22 consensus than it may appear.
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1 The Board apparently all agrees that

2 container production should be allowed with

3 appropriate standards, and they're working

4 through what those standards should be. This is

5 consensus, this should be celebrated. Bravo.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Francis,

7 Emily. Francis, go ahead.

8 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Nate. You

9 said you support the 2010 recommendations

10 prohibiting hydroponic. If you have a system

11 that's 100 percent liquid feed, would you call

12 that hydroponic, regardless of the substrate?

13 Suppose for example it's coconut coir. 

14 One hundred percent liquid feed, would you call

15 that hydroponic?

16 MR. LEWIS: Would that include, like,

17 a dairy farm using 100 percent liquid manure for

18 their silage? Or out of the outer crust of the

19 Earth?

20 DR. THICKE: Pardon me? Are you

21 trying to give me the strong man argument here

22 and take me off track? What I'm looking for is,
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1 and you've been very unclear about this. You say

2 you support the 2010 recommendation that

3 recommends prohibiting hydroponics.

4 And then I'm asking you if you have a

5 system that's 100 percent liquid feed with

6 coconut coir, is that hydroponic?

7 MR. LEWIS: I don't really want to

8 answer, I mean, I'm sorry. What are you trying

9 to get at? I don't really --

10 DR. THICKE: I'm trying to get at what

11 you mean by hydroponic?

12 MR. LEWIS: I think we need

13 appropriate production standards for containers. 

14 And a liquid feeding, I think it has to do with

15 where and what the product is grown in. If it's

16 in a pot, then it should be, you know, and it's a

17 container production, it meets the container

18 production requirements that you're trying to

19 propose, then it should be allowed, it should be

20 container production.

21 DR. THICKE: All right. Now, all

22 hydroponics are done in containers, right? 
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1 That's a given. And so the question is if it's

2 100 percent liquid feed, is that hydroponic or

3 not?

4 MR. LEWIS: I don't know.

5 DR. THICKE: Okay, thank you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Emily?

7 MS. OAKLEY: Just a point of

8 clarification that I don't know that I would use

9 the word consensus on containers so much as the

10 word compromise. I don't think that there was

11 consensus among us that we wanted containers, but

12 we saw that as the point of compromise. So just

13 a point of clarification.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley?

15 MS. SWAFFAR: So yesterday we heard a

16 lot of different back and forth about the two

17 different models of in-soil versus hydroponic and

18 containers and carbon. We heard a lot about

19 that. Can you give us your opinion on that?

20 MR. LEWIS: Well, I'm not a scientist. 

21 But, I think we need to be cautious when we're

22 looking at carbon footprints as it relates to
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1 organic farming. The Organic Center did come out

2 with a research study in conjunction with the

3 Northeastern which showed that organic farms in

4 general do have higher amounts of stable organic

5 matter in their soils than conventional farms. 

6 That's great research.

7 But I think it's important to also

8 recognize that on a per-yield basis, organic

9 farms are rarely carbon neutral or carbon

10 positive. And so if we're going to bring carbon

11 and climate change and carbon footprints into the

12 discussion, I think we need to look at operations

13 on a holistic perspective from the seed to the

14 mouth, the whole system, and whether or not it

15 contributes to climate change or has some

16 mitigating effect.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave?

18 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, and I would

19 actually take it one level higher, and that is

20 how many people are you actually feeding. I

21 think these comparisons of organic production

22 acre unit estimates of production are, in my
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1 opinion, meaningless because we compare for

2 example maize production conventional to organic.

3 Meaningless. Sixty percent of the

4 maize that's produced conventionally is used to

5 produce ethanol.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave, I need to get to

7 questions.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: So I guess when we

9 want to talk about sustainability, we need to

10 look at the right numbers. That's all I'll say.

11 MR. LEWIS: I would encourage you to

12 consider that as a research priority for the next

13 round. I think it's an important --

14 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, I agree that it's

15 an important priority.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Joelle?

17 MS. MOSSO: Nate, I'm curious with the

18 OTA's communication networks with consumers, I'm

19 going to ask that same question I've asked

20 previously is that what is your interaction or

21 feedback from the organic consumer community that

22 is pulling this market forward in exponential
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1 growth in regards to containerized production.

2 MR. LEWIS: That's tough. I think

3 it's challenging. Our membership is trade, and

4 we do interact with consumers. But I don't

5 really want to try to say that we understand what

6 the consumer thinks or what their perspectives

7 are.

8 I mean, I think a lot of what's been

9 contributed has been anecdotal, and from a

10 particular perspective. So it's really

11 challenging to answer that, what the consumer

12 thinks about containers.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Steve?

14 MR. ELA: You've completely confused

15 me about your definition of hydroponics now.

16 MR. LEWIS: Okay.

17 MR. ELA: Could you give me your

18 definition?

19 MR. LEWIS: It's in the 2010

20 recommendation, the production of terrestrial

21 vascular plants in an inert media with, you know,

22 soluble nutrient solution, something like that.
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1 MR. ELA: And you're going to say that

2 coconut coir is not inert?

3 MR. LEWIS: I would say that the

4 containers that are producing organic crops

5 currently are not inert media. Correct.

6 MR. ELA: I think you're hitting the

7 nail on the head that it's hard to define.

8 MR. LEWIS: Right, and I guess --

9 MR. ELA: Even your clear definition

10 is not very clear.

11 MR. LEWIS: It's hard to define. But

12 I would also say that I don't know that we need

13 to necessarily capture every single thing that we

14 don't want to have in organic in a definition and

15 then prohibit it.

16 We don't say conventional dairy

17 farming is defined as everything that doesn't

18 meet the organic standards, and that is a

19 prohibited practice. We define what the

20 practices are that are required for organic dairy

21 farming, and if you don't meet those, you can't

22 be organic. Does the parallel make sense sort
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1 of? I don't know, it's challenging.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Francis, and we'll end

3 it there.

4 DR. THICKE: Exactly what we did, we

5 defined container production that would be

6 allowed, and then we said what doesn't meet that

7 standard is not allowed.

8 MR. LEWIS: I understand that.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Nate. Up

10 next is Rex Kittle. Is Rex Kittle here? Seeing

11 no Rex Kittle, we'll move on to Phil LaRocca. 

12 And then Kelly Damewood after Phil.

13 MR. LAROCCA: Good morning, my name is

14 Phil LaRocca, I'm the owner and winemaker of

15 LaRocca Vineyards. I'm also the Chairman of the

16 Board of Directors for CCOF. I will be starting

17 my 45th year as an organic farmer, being first

18 certified in 1975.

19 I attended probably every NOSB meeting

20 for the first seven years of your inception. I

21 cannot tell you how many meetings I've been to. 

22 My crusade was to try to at least limit or try to
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1 keep out synthetics in organic.

2 It was very clear cut for me. This

3 issue on hydroponics is extremely tearing me

4 apart because I have friends -- first of all, I

5 understand both arguments on both sides. I have

6 friends on both sides of the issue, and I respect

7 the farmers on both sides of the issue.

8 I am hoping that we can come up with

9 some kind of compromise and resolve this, and

10 move on. As wearing my CCOF hat, I am proud that

11 our board is made up of all farmers, except for a

12 processor seat. So I'm also here to protect our

13 farmers.

14 And whether the NOP made a mistake or

15 not, we do have 108 farmers that were certified

16 hydroponic organic. A lot of these are not large

17 growers, they are small growers and we would

18 destroy them economically.

19 I think that we are not the Monsanto

20 of the world where we go out and pollute our

21 neighbor and don't give a damn about it. There

22 has to be some compassion in this industry, so we
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1 need to come up with some sort of compromise.

2 Our compromise that we are throwing

3 out at CCOF is total disclosure, labeling. Let's

4 label it and make the consumer decide. I totally

5 disagree with somebody earlier that didn't put a

6 lot of emphasis on the consumer.

7 None of us in this room would be here

8 if people weren't buying organic products. So

9 the consumer is the X factor. And many years ago

10 at CCOF, we ran a study, who bought organic. And

11 roughly it was women between the ages of 28 to

12 55, well educated, and I want to emphasize that,

13 well educated, felt that it was healthier for

14 them.

15 About 60 percent had children and said

16 they felt that buying organic was both healthy

17 for them and their family. And the one thing

18 that was consistent across the board when asked -

19 - at that time, I should add that it was 30 to 33

20 percent more expensive to buy organic over

21 conventional.

22 And all of these people that took the
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1 study said we are willing to pay the extra money

2 as long as it is organic. By God, it had better

3 be organic. So make total disclosure on the

4 label. You don't need a PC code to tell people

5 it's hydroponic.

6 Put it on the label that people read

7 it, and let the consumer, the organic consumer

8 decide whether they want to buy it. And that

9 will dictate whether hydroponics or containers

10 exist or not, whether the consumer goes out and

11 affords it. Thank you.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Phil. 

13 Francis?

14 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Phil. Now

15 when you take your CCOF hat off, what do you

16 think personally? Do you think hydroponics is

17 organic?

18 MR. LAROCCA: I do. I truly do. As

19 long as the standards are followed closely that

20 organic ingredients, and for example, I know one

21 hydroponic grower, it took him two and a half

22 years to come up with an organic solution before
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1 they even started their greenhouses and planted

2 in it.

3 I got to be honest with you, when I

4 was first asked to speak on this, I was shocked. 

5 I didn't realize that this was going to be so

6 controversial. I think that most of the people

7 that we know, especially the smaller growers, are

8 already labeling it certified organic hydroponic.

9 So I think, you know, we have a

10 tendency to dumb down the organic consumer. And

11 the organic consumer is not dumb. I think we

12 have a little higher consciousness than most

13 people think we have.

14 I consider myself an organic consumer

15 as well. And I do read the label of everything I

16 buy, organic or not organic.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa?

18 MR. BRADMAN: I'm just curious to hear

19 more about how the Board interacted, and whether

20 there was I guess bifurcation or, you know, how

21 was it that the vote developed?

22 MR. LAROCCA: The vote, it was very
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1 tight. We had a lot of our farmers that totally

2 believed in it. So I should add that I grow in

3 soil, and I probably spend the first 25 years of

4 my organic cultivation developing my soil. So I

5 totally believe in that.

6 I think the change came on our board

7 when we talked about labeling. And then it

8 became a pretty good majority that agreed if it's

9 labeled, we can go on with this for a lot of our

10 vegetable growers in particular.

11 MR. BRADMAN: Have you talked about

12 this with other certifiers in the country?

13 MR. LAROCCA: I have not. You know,

14 from this NOP, I sit on the Board of Directors on

15 the farm side. So there's a firewall between us

16 and our certification side. So I try to go along

17 with what the organic farmer wants, and try to do

18 everything I can to protect them.

19 That's why I feel it important for me

20 to be here because we do have these 108 growers

21 that have been operating with certification. And

22 what are we going to do with these guys? I don't
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1 think that this organic community can just throw

2 them out on the street. I personally know we

3 will devastate economically several of our

4 growers.

5 MR. BRADMAN: Can I have a follow up

6 question? So you said you believe hydroponic is

7 organic.

8 MR. LAROCCA: I do.

9 MR. BRADMAN: So can you explain that

10 and why, what are the outcomes that make it

11 organic?

12 MR. LAROCCA: Well, I personally

13 understand the concept of soil. But when all

14 this started, in our tasting room, and I am

15 organic so a lot of my customers come because I

16 have an organic wine.

17 But I would say 40 percent are just

18 off the street wanting to taste wine. So we ran

19 a little survey of what people thought was

20 organic. Most of them said they don't want

21 synthetic pesticides and chemicals in their food.

22 That's how most of your organic consumers.
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1 So I think if a hydroponic or a

2 container grower comes up with an organic system

3 that truly is organic and make the rules as

4 strict as possible. You know, no lenience. Make

5 it as strong as any organic farmer has to follow

6 that's growing in soil and follow it.

7 So if they're using inputs that are

8 qualified as organic, then label it an organic

9 system and a hydroponic system. So you go to a

10 grocery store, I'll use myself as an example.

11 If I go to a store and I'm going to

12 buy basil, if basil is grown in soil, I'll

13 probably buy that first. But if I have a choice

14 between conventional basil and basil grown

15 organic hydroponically, I'll buy the hydroponic

16 one.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Phil. So I

18 have Dan, then Sue, and I have a question. No,

19 Phil. Phil, Phil, Phil, come back. I'm just

20 saying thank you to try to cut it off.

21 MR. LAROCCA: Oh, I thought you said

22 thank you to go.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Succinct, succinct is

2 the key words here. I have Dan, then Sue, then

3 myself and we'll have to end it there.

4 DR. SEITZ: You mentioned the

5 potential hardship to hydroponic operations if we

6 did not have a organic hydroponic standard. 

7 Yesterday there was someone who testified, I

8 gather the owner of a large chain of natural

9 grocery stores, who said that he has seen harm to

10 conventional, I mean to organic soil based

11 growers in terms of the crops that they sell to

12 the stores because they've been supplanted by the

13 year round hydroponic operations.

14 So I'm just wondering if it's fair to

15 say that no matter what decision we make, there

16 is likely to be some economic hardship in that

17 sector of the organic industry?

18 MR. LAROCCA: That's true. But I

19 think the labeling may differentiate that, as I

20 explained from my own buying power. I think

21 right now a lot of hydroponic people are not

22 labeling their stuff. So the consumer doesn't
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1 know.

2 DR. SEITZ: Right. That may be one

3 way to at least level the playing field somewhat

4 so to speak. Yes. Great, thanks.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Sue?

6 MS. BAIRD: I hear this back and

7 forth, and --

8 MR. LAROCCA: Right there with you.

9 MS. BAIRD: And we will continue to

10 hear this back and forth. You're a wine maker,

11 correct?

12 MR. LAROCCA: Correct.

13 MS. BAIRD: And this is a just if. If

14 you had some container or hydroponic competition,

15 would you feel different?

16 MR. LAROCCA: No, and I'll tell you

17 why, because I am competing against, I'm from

18 California. Our minimum wage is $15 an hour. We

19 have to pay overtime to our employees, we have to

20 play lunch and breaks. And I am competing

21 against organic wines coming in from Chile where

22 they pay $4 a day for their labor. I just got to
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1 step up my game to compete.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Phil, I have

3 some questions as well, two I think. So I'll try

4 to keep it brief. First of all, you mentioned

5 that your board is primarily farmers, one

6 processor. You guys, you have been one of the

7 few in-ground soil commenters who supported a

8 concept of organic hydroponics of some form.

9 And I've also though read critiques

10 that your board is made up of hydroponic farmers. 

11 Can you speak a little bit of the make-up of your

12 board just to set that right.

13 MR. LAROCCA: We have one hydroponic

14 farmer on the board.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: And everyone else is in16 ground soil?

17 MR. LAROCCA: Everybody else is in18 ground. We do have a dairy producer.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. And the number of

20 your board members?

21 MR. LAROCCA: I think there's 16 of

22 us.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Sixteen. And they, how

2 are they selected?

3 MR. LAROCCA: We are broken up into

4 chapters. So you are nominated by your chapter

5 to be a board rep. And then you get voted on

6 from the board itself.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: So it's 16 members

8 representing chapters across --

9 MR. LAROCCA: California.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: -- California.

11 MR. LAROCCA: And we have one Mexico

12 chapter.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: One Mexico chapter. And

14 then can you speak, we've heard a lot from

15 northeastern in-ground soil production. And

16 you're one of the few probably western in-ground

17 soil production folks out here.

18 Do you think that the regional

19 differences in organic somewhat play into this

20 debate?

21 MR. LAROCCA: I do think that

22 economics is involved on the east coast, where I
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1 do believe these people believe in the soil based

2 system, I do think there's a level of economics,

3 and I see nothing wrong with that. You're trying

4 to make a living on your farm.

5 So if you see competition from the

6 outside -- I mean, we suffer all the time from

7 imports from South America in particular. But we

8 just figure we just got to step up our game. I

9 don't know what else to say on that level.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. And then one

11 last question. I know you tried to clarify this

12 earlier, but I've read you see -- CCOF is a

13 certifier of hydroponic operations, so they have

14 a financial vested interest in it.

15 I understand there's three CCOF's, the

16 CCOF Trade Association, the CCOF Certifier, and

17 the CCOF Foundation. Can you clarify which CCOF

18 you're representing?

19 MR. LAROCCA: The CCOF Incorporated. 

20 We are the Board of Directors. I am also

21 involved with the foundation side, but we don't

22 really have any involvement with certification.
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1 We did originally, and then when the

2 rule was proposed, which I always objected to,

3 it's basically a firewall, it was felt that

4 organic farmers couldn't regulate themselves in

5 certification. There may be a conflict of

6 interest.

7 But I always argued that the law board

8 is made up of lawyers, the realtor board is made

9 up of realtors, and the medical board is made up

10 of doctors. But we can't have certifiers. So

11 we're operating in a pretty good fashion.

12 We do have a lot of opportunity to do

13 outreach and research. And I think we're pretty

14 much in tune, at least correct with California,

15 and no offense to the East Coast, but we do grow

16 about 70 percent of your organic goods come from

17 our state.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Phil.

19 MR. LAROCCA: You're welcome.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Kelly

21 followed by Pat Kerrigan. Pat, is that Pat? 

22 Okay, Pat's here, I see Pat. Kelly, if you can
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1 start with your name and affiliation for the

2 record.

3 MS. DAMEWOOD: I'm Kelly Damewood with

4 -- Policy Director for CCOF. Given that we work

5 with thousands of organic producers, it's quite

6 challenging to take a hard and fast position on

7 tough issues but our position on hydroponics is

8 clear. CCOF does support strong standards for

9 hydroponic in container systems. As you just

10 heard, that is our position as adopted by our

11 Board of Directors who have a range of opinions

12 on this issue.

13 Given our position, we oppose the

14 subcommittee's proposal. Rather than propose

15 strong standards, it would create arbitrary

16 overly prescriptive requirements. An

17 unachievable standard is not a compromise as a

18 means to an end. It's a means to eliminate a

19 swath of producers using a certain type of

20 production system from organic certification. 

21 Some can jump through hoops and comply, but why? 

22 It's not going to better their crops. It's not
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1 going to further distinguish them from

2 conventional and it's not going to make them

3 magically mirror in-ground production.

4 Yes, what CCOF is saying is we

5 completely recognize that this is a new and

6 different production system but what we are also

7 saying is that's okay, we can make room. Because

8 at the end of the day, hydro is not the enemy of

9 soil and soil is not the enemy of hydro. At the

10 end of the day, it's not just soil health for the

11 sake of soil health. At the end of the day, our

12 ultimate goal is nutritious food grown without

13 harmful inputs and practices.

14 And at the end of the day, whether we

15 like it or not, USDA organic certification is the

16 chance to transform our food system. There will 

17 never be a comparable federal investment and a

18 transparent robust democratic certification

19 process.

20 As such, we strongly urge the Board to

21 reconsider the proposal and consider the draft

22 standards that we proposed to the Board. We
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1 believe these would bring consistency and clarity

2 to the certification of these new and evolving

3 systems, but of course would welcome the

4 opportunity to refine and expand upon these

5 standards.

6 Most importantly, please consider our

7 labeling proposal. While we do believe we can

8 make room for these systems, they are different

9 and we should label them as such to bring

10 transparency to the consumer. A label may help

11 bridge this deep philosophical divide so that we

12 can stop pitting growers and organizations and

13 individuals against one another. It's radical

14 but CCOF believes in a world where organic is the

15 norm and our hope is respect and working together

16 to achieve that goal. Thank you.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Francis?

18 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Kelly. I

19 studied your standards and tell me if I'm wrong

20 but you defined hydroponics as container growing

21 and so you do not have any requirement for

22 labeling hydroponics. Anything can be labeled
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1 container -- as a matter of fact, I believe

2 aeroponics is also defined as hydroponics, which

3 is container growing, so you basically will allow

4 aeroponics, hydroponics without labeling them as

5 such, calling them container growing. Is that

6 right?

7 MS. DAMEWOOD: Yes, thanks for that

8 question. We don't have a position per se on

9 aeroponics. I don't think we know enough about

10 these systems. I think the real question would

11 be, well what makes them substantially different

12 from hydroponics that we could not support them? 

13 Yes, in our mind, the most important factor is

14 not defining hydroponics as separate from

15 container. You know, all hydroponics are

16 containers, not all containers are hydroponics. 

17 As you all know, trying to draw the fine line

18 between hydroponics and containers is quite

19 challenging.

20 So yes, from our mind, everything can

21 be defined as container and what we're proposing

22 is to leave it up to the producer to either label
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1 as hydroponically grown or container grown. So

2 they must choose one of those labels and if that

3 can be clarified in the standard, we should do so

4 and we are certainly not opposed to a discussion

5 about if we can get to a clear definition of

6 hydroponic, then having a clear sect that must

7 label as hydroponic and not choose.

8 DR. THICKE: But there does seem to be

9 a loophole in that because it says that you must

10 include an eligible production statement and then

11 give examples that may include container grown,

12 hydroponically grown, aquaponically grown. It

13 does not say that you must use one of those. You

14 can use any other apparently -- any other kind of

15 eligible production statement, which you may come

16 up with according to --

17 MS. DAMEWOOD: So this is a draft

18 standard and that's exactly the feedback we need

19 because we need to fix that language because we

20 are saying you must label as either

21 hydroponically grown or container grown or

22 aquaponically grown, which is obvious -- it's not
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1 hard to distinguish that one. So thanks.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, I had Sue,

3 then Ashley. Asa, were you raising your hand or

4 not? Okay. Then Harriet, then Asa, then I'm

5 cutting it off. Sue.

6 MS. BAIRD: Yes, we have discussed as

7 the NOSB that you should limit the amount of

8 nutrients in the container to 20 percent from

9 liquids and stuff and then you have to use 50

10 percent whatever. So, I'm trying to compare that

11 to soil-based production. Do you have those kind

12 of limitations to your production in Arizona or

13 other places that may not have the types of soils

14 we do in the Midwest or Northeast. Do you limit

15 the amount of --

16 MS. DAMEWOOD: We don't have any such

17 limitation on in-ground production.

18 MS. BAIRD: Do you even ask those

19 questions?

20 MS. DAMEWOOD: The percentage that

21 there of --

22 MS. BAIRD: Using with inputs that
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1 goes through drip lines or whatever, whatever

2 that's not --

3 MS. DAMEWOOD: No limit --

4 MS. BAIRD: -- inerrant soil?

5 MS. DAMEWOOD: It's my understanding

6 that there's no specific limitation on liquid

7 inputs, however you define liquid inputs.

8 MS. BAIRD: I don't find that in the

9 rule either. I just wondered.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

11 MS. BAIRD: Okay, thank you.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley?

13 MS. SWAFFAR: Thanks for your

14 comments, Kelly. We've heard a lot of folks talk

15 about hydroponic growers as very large growers

16 and I know that Phillip said you have 108

17 hydroponic growers that you certify. Can you

18 tell us about the size and about the percentages?

19 MS. DAMEWOOD: Sure. So, you know, 

20 give or take probably over 100 to some -- I think

21 the highest we've had would be up to 130. And

22 again, it's not for us, the most important factor
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1 is not distinguishing hydroponic from container. 

2 I think a lot of people question when you're

3 saying container, do you really mean hydroponic

4 and so we kind of encompass them all as

5 container.

6 I would say if you're thinking on --

7 and so that the range from classic, you know

8 roots in water to substrate container production. 

9 That sort of classic roots in water, there's

10 probably around 10 and they are most definitely

11 very small scale family growers.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I've got

13 Harriet, then Asa.

14 MS. BEHAR: So as a shock to most --

15 many people, I grow in containers; however, I do

16 no liquid feeding whatsoever. I grow in rain

17 gutters that are suspended in my earth-bermed

18 solar greenhouse that doesn't need any heat

19 except when it goes below 10 below zero at night. 

20 So I grow lettuce and spinach and I get about

21 four cuttings through the winter and then I

22 compost the leftovers.
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1 So we were trying to define what's in

2 a container, so not all containers are hydroponic 

3 --

4 MS. DAMEWOOD: Exactly.

5 MS. BEHAR: -- so we were trying to

6 put it to the liquid feeding. So that's just

7 information.

8 And then the other -- the question I

9 have for you is about bringing in a new system

10 and looking at the Organic Food Production Act

11 and the regulations and all the things that are

12 there that really do have so much of a tie to

13 ecosystem improvement and soil improvement. How

14 do you then deal with that in your certification

15 when they fill out the organic system plan? Is

16 it just not applicable, not applicable, not

17 applicable?

18 MS. DAMEWOOD: Thanks and I think it's

19 a -- at first, it's really important to recognize

20 if you're growing in a container system, if we

21 were to pursue a container grown labeling

22 requirement, we may need to distinguish, you
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1 know, when would you have to label as container. 

2 That is a concern of mine, you know, to

3 distinguish, you know, because is the system, you

4 know, using the same kind of production system

5 science as in-ground production as classic

6 organic. So that's an aside and something I

7 think that is worth considering.

8 Our container growers are not absolved

9 of the organics -- certain parts of the organic

10 standards as has been expressed in the past. 

11 They are equally held to all the same

12 biodiversity, natural resources, conservation

13 requirements. Their OSPs are just as long, if

14 not longer and they -- you know, it's still an

15 evolving production system, I would say and so I

16 think people are still figuring out what's the

17 best type need, you know, landscape fabric

18 between the containers or tilling and there's a

19 wide range of factors. But they are held to all

20 those same standards.

21 There is biodiversity, there's

22 heteros. There's a lot of the same features that
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1 you see on the in-ground production and a lot of

2 them have both in-ground and container production

3 and it's just one piece of their overall system.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Asa.

5 MR. BRADMAN: So I have in front of me

6 opened the 2010 recommendation and I can see how

7 this can be a little confusing. There's the

8 recommendation and there's the preamble and the

9 recommendation seems to leave room for the

10 proposal that you're suggesting. But I want to

11 see if you can comment on how your proposal is --

12 how it imports with the 2010 regulations?

13 MS. DAMEWOOD: Well, you know, I

14 honestly --

15 MR. BRADMAN: Recommendations, sorry.

16 MS. DAMEWOOD: Yes. No, I think it's

17 a great question. I'd be happy to do a side by

18 side analysis and submit it to the full Board

19 after the meeting.

20 I mean, basically I think what we're -

21 - looking at the 2010 recommendation, you know,

22 over the past seven years, a lot has changed and
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1 evolved in container production systems and their

2 ability to cycle nutrients, not rely on -- you

3 know, the ability to create, you know, solutions

4 using all organically-approved materials and so I

5 think -- like, looking at the state of the sector

6 today, what are the standards that distinguish

7 them from conventional container production?

8 I think -- to be clear, what I'm

9 saying is I think to this point, there's been

10 this real effort to find that magic number, that

11 magic standard or definition that is going to

12 make these new production systems sufficiently

13 organic enough in the classic sense of growing,

14 you know, the original organic method that is all

15 about the soil.

16 And what I'm saying is CCOF recognizes

17 that, you know, these systems, some people are

18 growing container systems that I would say would

19 align with that, but these new systems we're

20 talking about are different and it's not in that

21 classic method and we're saying that's okay if

22 they can meet the organic standards and we should
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1 continue to refine how they are differentiated

2 from their conventional counterparts if that

3 makes sense.

4 So I think the 2010 was really more

5 about trying to define the kind of systems that

6 do sufficiently mirror the classic organic

7 method.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you, 

9 Kelly. We're going to have to move on. Thank

10 you. Up next is Pat Kerrigan, followed by Julie

11 Weisman. Pat, if you can start with your name

12 and affiliation for the record.

13 MR. KERRIGAN: Good morning. My name

14 is Pat Kerrigan. I'm with Organic Consumers

15 Association. I'm testifying today to urge the

16 NOSB to honor the crops subcommittee compromise

17 hydroponics proposal and along with recommending

18 that the Board members and certifiers do all they

19 can do to ensure that the regulatory process that

20 gets put into place is astringent and fraud-proof

21 as possible.

22 Since OCAs founding, we've been
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1 aligned with hard working organic farmers and

2 ranchers who do the right thing, providing

3 consumers with safe and nutritious food, treating

4 workers with dignity, raising animals humanely

5 and responsibly stewarding the land that sustains

6 all of us.

7 With our first campaign back at the

8 end of this last century, we helped to

9 successfully lead the charge against the USDA

10 proposed rule, which would have allowed GMOs,

11 irradiated foods and sewage sludge to be

12 certified as organic. We held the line against

13 those initial threats to organic integrity.

14 NOSB members, I'm asking you to do

15 your part in holding the line against the threat

16 posed by hydroponics to soil based organic --

17 real organic farmers.

18 How disturbing that organic farmers

19 now use the term soil organic as a qualifier and

20 how tragic that these farmers who provide the

21 foundation of the organic industry are facing a

22 rapidly growing threat to their survival from
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1 hydroponic producers that are more factory than

2 farm, feeding plants instead of feeding the soil

3 and who are cashing in on the integrity and

4 consumer trust that these soil farmers have

5 worked so hard to build. Seventeen thousand

6 seventy-one people have signed our petitions

7 standing with real organic farmers and to keep

8 the soil in organic coalition and opposing soil

9 as crop production systems and organic.

10 As we've stated in our hydroponics

11 petition, the push for soilless organic is just

12 another way for big business to further

13 industrialize organic and marginalize the family

14 farmers who use traditional organic farming

15 techniques.

16 Organic consumers in the U.S. are just

17 now learning about the hydroponic bait and switch

18 but have no way of knowing whether the

19 organically labeled produce on retail shelves

20 across the country is actually grown in the soil

21 or is in fact hydroponic.

22 And this consumer fraud is taking
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1 place on a larger and larger scale as hydroponic

2 industry scales up. Shouldn't the organic

3 consumers have the right to know whether the food

4 they're purchasing is produced by real organic

5 farmers or full organic factories.

6 Also when unknowingly purchasing

7 watered down hydroponic produce, these consumers

8 are being fooled into believing that with the

9 premium price they're paying, that they are

10 receiving the very most nutritious foods and

11 contributing to their family's health and

12 contributing to a healthier environment.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Pat.

14 MR. KERRIGAN: Thanks for your time. 

15 Thank you for answering. Thank you --

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Any questions?

17 MR. KERRIGAN: -- for your hard work

18 on this.

19 MS. MOSSO: Hi. I had a question. In

20 regards to the survey that you put out through

21 your members, I'm curious --

22 MR. KERRIGAN: It wasn't a survey. It
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1 was a petition.

2 MS. MOSSO: Petition. What was the

3 petition's question?

4 MR. KERRIGAN: What was the petition's 

5 what?

6 MS. MOSSO: What was the question that

7 they could sign to, that had to identify --

8 MR. KERRIGAN: To join -- keep the

9 soil in organic and soil farmers in opposing

10 soilless systems as being certified as organic.

11 MS. MOSSO: They included all of that?

12 MR. KERRIGAN: It was hydroponic

13 focus. I think we mentioned aeroponic, aquaponic

14 but it was primarily hydroponic focus.

15 MS. MOSSO: Thank you.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Dan.

17 DR. SEITZ: So from some testifiers,

18 we've heard about small scale hydroponic

19 operations. From you, we're hearing about large

20 corporate size hydroponic operations. I have no

21 idea what the landscape is in the hydroponic

22 production world. Do you have any information on
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1 whether the majority of produce is coming from

2 very large scale or is that just an emerging

3 sector and right now it's small scale? Can you,

4 do you have any way of characterizing that?

5 MR. KERRIGAN: Well it seems to be

6 rapidly emerging. Just from the online NOSB

7 testimony that I follow, then also the past

8 several in-person NOSB meetings where hydroponics

9 is the most controversial and has had the bulk of

10 the comments, there's a lot of producers --

11 hydroponic producers talking about how many staff

12 that they employ and that makes me think that --

13 just hearing the number of comments from large

14 producers that in fact, we are looking at large

15 scale hydroponic production.

16 I think they like to talk about small

17 scale producers in minimizing the potential

18 threat to soil health farms but just the fact of

19 the number of soil farmers -- farmers -- this is

20 one of their busiest times of the year and they

21 are here. They took time out of their week, are

22 paying for their hotels. They are here to
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1 testify. That shows me clearly and I hope it

2 shows you that this is a critically important

3 issue for soil farmers i.e. real organic farmers.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

5 MR. KERRIGAN: Thank you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next, we have Julie

7 Weisman, followed by Cameron Harsh. Julie, if

8 you can start with your name and affiliation for

9 the record.

10 MS. WEISMAN: Associate Deputy

11 Administrator Tucker, Chairman Chapman, members

12 of the Board, my name is Julie Weisman. I'm

13 speaking today as a representative of Elan

14 Incorporated and Flavorganics LLC, not about

15 hydroponics. I am also a past member of this

16 Board. I served on the NOSB from 2005 to 2010,

17 during which time I chaired the Handling

18 Committee and served as both Vice Chair and

19 Secretary of the Board.

20 So first, I want to thank all the

21 Board members for your service to the organic

22 industry. I know firsthand the sacrifice of work
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1 life balance that is being demanded of you.

2 Elan is a producer or organic and

3 nonorganic flavor ingredient, especially organic

4 vanilla. Flavorganics is a national brand of

5 certified organic flavor products for home use. 

6 Along with our affiliate, Natural Flavors, we've

7 been making certified organic flavors for 20

8 years now.

9 The first of the two items I want to

10 address really is directed at the program but I

11 want to make sure that my concern is heard by

12 all. I'm in search of the lost annotation change

13 to the listing of flavors nonsynthetic on 605A.

14 The Organic Trade Association

15 submitted a petition to add commercial

16 availability language to the annotation to the

17 listing of flavors on 605A, which -- the position

18 which requires no requirement for organic flavors

19 to be used in organic products.

20 My companies were signatories to this

21 petition. It was passed by the full Board at the

22 fall 2015 meeting in Stowe, Vermont. At the same
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1 meeting, they passed the renewal of flavors on

2 the national list. It was supposed to be a

3 package deal. Of course, I was glad to see that

4 the proposed and then final rule that re-listed

5 flavors on 605A but the annotation is missing in

6 action and is needed to support the growth of

7 certified organic flavors and increase the

8 organic composition of the many organic products

9 in which they're used.

10 I'm disappointed to see no evidence

11 that rule making has been initiated and would

12 appreciate some indication of when that might

13 begin.

14 I also want to give a shout out for

15 the renewal of the handling materials up for re16 listing. Not all are used directly by my company

17 but all are used if not by me, then my ingredient

18 suppliers or in the products which also use my

19 organic products as ingredients.

20 Flavorganics directly uses

21 diatomaceous earth. We could not make our

22 Flavorganics syrups clear without them. 
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1 Attapulgite also is required to clarify the

2 organic citrus and mint oils, which are starting

3 materials for Flavorganics extracts. Sodium

4 bicarbonate, potassium acid tartrate are vital to

5 the many baked products that use Elan's organic

6 vanilla extract and sodium carbonate is needed in

7 dairy and chocolate products that use Elan's

8 organic vanilla.

9 Carbon dioxide is essential for a

10 nonvolatile method of extraction used for vanilla

11 and other botanicals and spice oils. Then

12 chlorine materials are the best and most widely

13 used tools for sanitation in organic operations. 

14 In handling, we have a very limited

15 tool kit to bring organic products to consumers

16 in a form that they can recognize and use easily

17 so please renew them. Thank you.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you Julie. Thank

19 you. Up next is Cameron Harsh followed by Kiki

20 Hubbard.

21 MR. HARSH: Good morning. My name is

22 Cameron Harsh with Center for Food Safety. As
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1 always, we appreciate the opportunity to

2 participate in this robust, transparent process

3 and support the crucial role of NOSB in assuring

4 organic integrity and fostering continuous

5 improvement.

6 CFS supports the crops subcommittee's 

7 intent to prohibit aeroponic, hydroponic, and

8 aquaponic systems that eliminates soil and rely

9 exclusively on liquid nutrients. Such systems

10 cannot comply with OFPA or the organic

11 regulations, which require maintaining and

12 improving soil health, natural resources and

13 biodiversity within an organic operation.

14 CSF supports clear differentiation

15 between excluded hydroponic systems and container

16 systems that may comply with OFPA and be eligible

17 for certification. The proposal to establish

18 caps on total nitrogen supplied in liquid form

19 and the amount that may be applied after planting

20 appears to be a valuable strategy for ensuring

21 containing producers are consistently building,

22 rather than depleting the growing media.
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1 We caution the Board for moving

2 forward without justifying the proposed caps

3 based on OFPA, the regulations and soil biology. 

4 The organic community needs more time to weigh in

5 on container production requirements illustrated

6 by the need for a discussion document at this

7 meeting.

8 Language in the hydroponics proposal

9 adds Section 205.209 to the regulations but must

10 be improved before moving forward. For example,

11 container systems should not be exempt from

12 205.202B, which establishes a critical three year

13 waiting period for applied prohibited substances.

14 We support denying Synergy USAs

15 petition on anaerobic digestate due to concerns

16 of pathogens, antibiotic resistance and animal

17 drug residues. Digestate must remain subject to

18 the same harvest waiting periods as raw manure

19 when applied to organic crop fields.

20 We urge NOSB to pursue avenues to

21 strengthen the definition of biodegradable,

22 biobased mulch to ensure that only 100 percent
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1 biobased and biodegradable products are allowed. 

2 The lack of existing products that meet this

3 standard must not justify accepting materials

4 that do not meet the high bar of organic.

5 As a research priority, NOSB should

6 support field based research on the

7 biodegradability of 100 percent biobased products

8 that accounts for the high variability of site

9 specific conditions such as ongoing research by

10 Washington State University.

11 On marine algae, NOSB should identify

12 species that can be harvested in an ecologically

13 sound manner considering all ecosystem impacts

14 from harvest beyond the ability of the target

15 species to regenerate and prohibit species that

16 cannot be harvested in such manner from using

17 organic.

18 CFS submitted a brief review of

19 available literature and urges NOSB to solicit

20 input from and consult with marine biologists

21 with expertise in the ecology of economically

22 important marine species.
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1 We continue to urge NOSB to develop a 

2 formal recommendation to NOP to add

3 nanotechnology and nanomaterials to 205.105 as

4 excluded and organic. NOPs action on nano to

5 date has been insufficient and this strategy is

6 the only means of assuring that nanomaterials are

7 never allowed in organic. As more and more nano

8 scale products gain food and farm uses including

9 nanoscale micronutrients, it is imperative that

10 this step be taken immediately. Thank you.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Emily.

12 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you for all of your

13 research on marine materials --

14 MR. HARSH: Of course.

15 MS. OAKLEY: -- and I wanted to ask of

16 the three possible approaches that we might take,

17 one being listing allowed marine materials, two, 

18 prohibiting certain species or geographic regions

19 or methods of harvest and three, applying the

20 wild crop standard. Where would you suggest we

21 begin?

22 MR. HARSH: Yes, that's a tough one
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1 and we haven't taken a position on which would be

2 the best strategy for ensuring that marine

3 species that can't be harvested in an

4 ecologically sound matter are effectively

5 prohibited and I think it's likely a combination

6 of strategies in terms of annotating national

7 listings, for example agar-agar. If you find out

8 through the research that a certain species has

9 detrimental ecosystem impacts, then amending that

10 to prohibit that species. But definitely we

11 support factoring in the wild crop standard as a

12 really good strategy moving forward initially and

13 then as the research develops, then maybe a

14 combination of strategies.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you

16 Cameron. Up next is Kiki Hubbard, followed by

17 Lynn Coody.

18 MS. HUBBARD: Good morning. My name

19 is Kiki Hubbard. I'm the director of Advocacy

20 for Organic Seed Alliance. We are a nonprofit

21 that works nationally to ensure farmers have the

22 organic seed they need through research,
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1 education and advocacy and my short comments this

2 morning will focus on the three seeds, specific

3 proposals and discussion documents on the agenda

4 this week.

5 First, we're grateful that the Board

6 remains committed to addressing the genetic

7 integrity of seed. Through the most recent call

8 for comments on previous discussion documents on

9 the issue of seed purity, protecting the genetic

10 integrity of seed used by organic growers is an

11 ongoing challenge that we all know places an

12 unfair burden on the organic sector.

13 Organic crop producers, seed producers

14 and seed companies are responding to the

15 challenges contamination poses through testing,

16 prevention strategies and even redirecting

17 contaminated seed lots to less valuable markets. 

18 And as we've discussed in previous comments,

19 these practices result in burdens that go well

20 beyond simply the cost of testing and monitoring

21 the problem. We're committed to supporting your

22 work on this complex issue in the months ahead.
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1 Secondly, we are very supportive of

2 clarifying the terminology used for making

3 determinations about which methods are excluded

4 in organic systems. The materials in GMOs

5 subcommittee is headed in the right direction

6 with using a framework and refining its process

7 for making determinations about excluded methods. 

8 The current proposal on excluded

9 methods terminology is generally good and we

10 support the listing of the three methods

11 identified as excluded but before this proposal

12 is approved, we think the subcommittee should

13 include a definition for each of these terms as

14 part of their formal recommendation. 

15 Additionally, this proposal and all future

16 excluded methods proposals should include the

17 excluded methods definition itself and a clear

18 statement with citations justifying the

19 subcommitte's decision when they move a method to

20 the excluded category.

21 Lastly, as my colleague will comment

22 on here shortly, we're very pleased to once again
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1 see the crop subcommitte's proposal to strengthen

2 NOPs 2013 Organic Seed Guidance Document. It's

3 important to remember that supporting increased

4 organic seed sourcing is more than just about

5 helping organic growers meet a regulatory

6 requirement. Much of our seed is currently bred

7 and produced under agrochemical conditions in

8 conflict with organic principles and with

9 breeding goals that too often don't benefit

10 organic farmers.

11 Alternatively, organic plant breeders

12 and seed producers are working for organic

13 farmers by focusing on traits that are important

14 to low input systems such as quick emergents,

15 weed competitiveness, nutrient use efficiency,

16 disease resistance and more.

17 In other words, the organic community

18 has an opportunity to create a path that's very

19 distinct from the dominant seed industry

20 controlled by agrochemical interest and this path

21 is shaped by our individual decisions to choose

22 organic seed when appropriate, to communicate
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1 ongoing supply gaps to organic breeders and the

2 seed industry and to advocate for policies and

3 solutions to meet these needs.

4 And we all have a role to play in

5 creating this path including you as an advisory

6 board with this proposal that is before you. 

7 Thank you.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Briefly,

9 Joelle and Harriet.

10 MS. MOSSO: Just a -- over here, just

11 a quick question. In regards to the excluded

12 methods definitions, what would be your opinion

13 about putting that in guidance versus regulation

14 simply due to the fluidity of evolution and those

15 methods?

16 MS. HUBBARD: My understanding is that

17 is the goal that the guidance documents would aid

18 to further clarify the excluded methods

19 definition.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet?

21 MS. BEHAR: Hi, Kiki.

22 MS. HUBBARD: Hi, Harriet.
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1 MS. BEHAR: So I was re-looking at all

2 of the comments on the strengthening seed

3 guidance and there was quite a few comments about

4 the trialing mandate or -- it's not actually, not

5 mandated but the discussion in there that we

6 should be encouraging seed producers -- I mean,

7 crop producers to trial, to actually figure out

8 what is of equivalent variety and so I wondered

9 if you could speak to that some about is there

10 any projects or anything you're working to help

11 there?

12 MS. HUBBARD: Yes, not only do we have

13 some projects underway to support growers in

14 conducting variety trials, as well as certifiers

15 helping to better understand how they can be used

16 as a tool for identifying varieties -- organic

17 varieties in particular that are appropriate for

18 the organic systems.

19 We believe that it is a very important

20 tool to recommend, especially for operations that

21 are not demonstrating improvement year to year,

22 that are not taking extra measures when
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1 appropriate to source organic seed. We feel that

2 this could be one way that they demonstrate they

3 are making improvements in their practices.

4 Organic Seed Alliance is working. We

5 have a variety trial guide for farmers. It's 10

6 years old. We are updating that manual in 2018

7 and it will have a special focus this time around

8 on articulating for growers who rely on this

9 manual. It's one of our most popular

10 publications downloaded by organic farmers on our

11 website, really clarifying for them or

12 instructing them how to use variety trials as a

13 tool to help meet the organic seed requirement

14 and understanding equivalency issues.

15 So a compliment to that is that we're

16 also working on a manual, working closely with

17 the certification community on the organic seed

18 requirement to help identify and publish as a

19 resource best practices for understanding and

20 enforcing the organic seed requirement in a

21 reasonable and measurable way so that we can have

22 more consistent enforcement and make faster
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1 progress in encouraging more organic seed usage.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Kiki. I have

3 one quick question for you as well.

4 MS. HUBBARD: Yes?

5 MR. CHAPMAN: My biggest concern with

6 the proposal as written is around the continuance

7 improvement requirement and while on the surface,

8 I completely agree with it, you know I work -- we

9 buy an extensive amount of organic oats and work

10 with organic oat growers across the U.S. and

11 Canada, many who source organic seed but in a

12 given year when crop production has been bad,

13 that equally affects organic seed production and

14 the organic seed industry is just not as robust

15 as the conventional seed industry is, which is

16 part of why this is trying to fix this but that

17 would show a noncontinuous improvement if in that

18 next year they would have to use a nonorganic

19 seed and maybe then they'd have to be forced to

20 choose a varietal that would not work well in

21 their areas, that may be more prone to disease or

22 potentially, you know, a crop that's not the best
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1 economic crop for them to grow at that time. 

2 What -- do you have concerns in that area as

3 well? What --

4 MS. HUBBARD: Yes, Tom.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: -- what's your thoughts?

6 MS. HUBBARD: I think that is a real

7 concern. I think that the updated regulation

8 coupled with the guidance could help provide some

9 flexibility in those instances and so I very much

10 encourage that because of course, at the end of

11 the day, we -- it's no one's intent in this room

12 to force farmers -- organic farmers to use a

13 particular organic seed variety if it's not

14 optimal for their system.

15 So yes, there are these unforseen

16 circumstances that are out of their control that

17 might keep them from those annual improvements. 

18 Again, I think that there are ways to provide

19 that flexibility and still move forward with the

20 proposal with updates and improvements as we've

21 articulated in our comments.

22 But yes, we need to be honest that
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1 there is a concern but I do not think that it is

2 a reason not to pass or propose that regulatory

3 update. We believe that as written -- seed

4 issues are complex and we believe that as written

5 and honors that complexity and balances the on

6 the ground reality with practical solutions and a

7 practical proposal for moving forward.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you,

9 Kiki. We have to move on now so up next, we have

10 Lynn Coody, followed by Abby Youngblood.

11 MS. COODY: Good morning. My name is

12 Lynn Coody and I'm presenting comments for the

13 Organic Producer Wholesaler's Coalition, seven

14 businesses that distribute fresh organic produce

15 across the United States and internationally. In

16 our comments, we express our own ideas and also

17 provide a conduit for the voices of the many

18 certified growers who supply our businesses.

19 Crop materials: OPWC agrees with the

20 crop subcommittee that both the petitioned

21 materials should not be added to the national

22 list. We do support re-listing all of the crops
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1 sunset materials except Vitamin B1 as our growers

2 indicated they do not need that material.

3 Hydroponics and containers: OPWC is

4 grateful for your continued work on these

5 difficult issues. We recognize that the lack of

6 clear standards prior to certification of various

7 types of ponic and container operations presents

8 significant complexities. Some certified

9 operations will likely lose their certification. 

10 Market share will shift for some and others will

11 need to adapt their management practices to

12 comply with new standards. It is clear that

13 whichever solution is chosen, the fresh produce

14 trade will be greatly impacted.

15 We hope our comments on this topic

16 support the NOSBs work by providing ideas that

17 provide middle ground between the views of the

18 proponents of soil based systems and those who

19 advocate for certification of all types of ponic

20 operations. Our goal is to work toward a

21 balanced solution that is rooted in compromise

22 and compliance with existing crop production
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1 standards and provides clear differentiation

2 between organic and conventional production

3 systems. We are not interested in pitting soil

4 based growers against those who produce crops in

5 containers. We think there are benefits to both

6 systems when they are based on organic standards.

7 As explained in our written comments,

8 we support the minority position as the best way

9 forward because we believe it focuses on

10 assessment of the outcome of all elements of the

11 production system and it emphasizes biological

12 interactions. Both are important organic

13 principles. Our written comments provide eight

14 suggestions for further development of the

15 minority position. We urge the Board to consider

16 these and other ideas to find a way forward that

17 balances the needs of all stake holders.

18 Excluded handlers: We appreciate the

19 recommendations for tightening the NOP guidance

20 and providing additional training on managing

21 trade with excluded handlers. The topic is

22 critically important in preventing fraud, co-
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1 mingling, and contamination in both imported and

2 domestic supply chains.

3 OPWC strongly believes that allowing

4 uncertified handlers creates significant

5 exception to the standard operating procedures of

6 the organic trade. Their exclusion from

7 certification requires additional management by

8 all other entities throughout the entire supply

9 chain, as well as from certifiers and the

10 accreditation system. Our written comments

11 provide extensive examples of the negative

12 impacts of excluded handlers on the produce

13 sector.

14 Although we understand the strategy of

15 proposing solutions to guidance, we urge

16 continued work on a regulatory change to

17 eliminate the handler exclusion. Thank you.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Lynn. 

19 Questions? I have Asa, Joelle and that's it.

20 MR. BRADMAN: First comment, I just

21 want to thank you for your written comments. I

22 thought they were really well done and just
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1 really thoughtful and thank you.

2 MS. COODY: Thanks, Asa.

3 MR. BRADMAN: This of course goes to

4 the issue around hydroponics and we heard

5 earlier, a proposal for a labeling compromise

6 that would talk about a, you know, a hydroponic

7 or aquaponic label that could be perhaps under

8 the NOP. How would that -- you know, I know your

9 comments on the container proposal we have but

10 what do you think about that as a wholesaler?

11 MS. COODY: Our group felt that we

12 could definitely accommodate this as we do pass

13 tremendous number of information bits about the

14 products through the supply chain as certified

15 handlers. So, we can definitely accommodate

16 this. It would mean a change to each of the

17 handlers information systems but we can do that.

18 First though, we would appreciate a

19 clarification of the standards and an emphasis on

20 how container production would be meeting each of

21 the standards. After that, we view the labeling 

22 option as an additional portion of the
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1 compromise, but we can do it.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. Thank you, Lynn. 

3 I share Asa's comments in appreciating your

4 detailed comments and I look forward to a

5 dialogue with you as we continue to work on

6 excluded operations.

7 MS. COODY: Thanks, Tom.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much.

9 MS. COODY: We'd really be happy to

10 help in the future with both excluded handlers

11 and even containers too.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next is

13 Abby Youngblood, followed by Jeff Bogusz. Sorry

14 Jeff. Abby, you can start with your name and

15 affiliation.

16 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Thank you, Tom. I'm

17 Abby Youngblood, executive director at the

18 National Organic Coalition, and thank you, NOSB

19 members for all that you're doing. We really,

20 really appreciate your service to the organic

21 community.

22 First, we're pleased that the NOSB is
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1 considering recommendations to improve oversight

2 procedures for imports and we support the current

3 NOSB recommendations on operations excluded from

4 certification. They're a good starting point for

5 addressing problems of fraud, not just with

6 imports but also with domestically produced

7 products and we think that it's critical that the

8 NOSB consider ways to strengthen integrity for

9 the entire systems, domestic and international.

10 With this in mind, we urge the NOSB to

11 pay close attention to the oversight system for

12 the NOPs accreditation process. We heard

13 yesterday morning about the 2017 peer review

14 audit and it's good that the NOP is undertaking

15 this annual audit. This is something that's

16 required by the organic law and regulations, but

17 the current peer review process is falling short

18 and a major problem is that the NOP has too much

19 control over how the review is conducted. What

20 we need is truly independent oversight using a

21 risk base focus and review with assurance that

22 the NOP will be held accountable to fix any
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1 problems that are identified.

2 Second, on excluded methods, NOC

3 supports listing agroinfiltration, cisgenesis and

4 intragenesis as excluded methods but we strongly 

5 urge the NOSB to develop a definition for each of

6 the terms to provide necessary clarity and we do

7 not agree that cell fusion within a plant family

8 is a form of cisgenesis.

9 Third, NOC urges the NOSB to support

10 the crop subcommittee recommendation on container

11 production as a compromised solution that allows

12 container growing to continue when it's founded

13 on the principle of feeding the soil, not the

14 crop. It's important to note that highly soluble

15 crop nutrients have been thought of as

16 inappropriate for organic farming right from the

17 start. This is discussed in the preamble to the

18 NOP final rule.

19 Right now, some container production

20 systems rely on excessive use of new and highly

21 soluble sources of nutrients. The crop

22 subcommittee proposal would place a restriction
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1 that's consistent with the intent of the final

2 rule and with how other highly soluble nutrients

3 such as Chilean nitrate have been regulated.

4 And finally, I want to talk about

5 inerts. The next step is the Memorandum of

6 Understanding with the EPA and we urge the NOSB

7 to work with the NOP to move this issue forward

8 to clarify the NOSB recommendation from fall of

9 2015. Inerts make up the largest part of

10 pesticide products and some are more toxic than

11 active ingredients in pesticides. As an example,

12 nonylphenol ethoxylate or NPEs and these should

13 be removed as quickly as possible from use in

14 organic agriculture.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Questions? 

16 Asa, briefly.

17 MR. BRADMAN: I'm going to keep asking

18 the same question here but you suggested you

19 agree with the current container proposal and the

20 limits on liquid feeding and I understand the

21 arguments for that. Should there also be similar

22 limits on use of liquid fertilizers in the field
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1 and how do we evaluate for example, there's many

2 OMRI-approved fertilizers and some are, you know,

3 processed from soy beans, some are fish, some are

4 --

5 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Yes.

6 MR. BRADMAN: -- you know, how do we -

7 - and none of them of course are, you know --

8 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Yes.

9 MR. BRADMAN: -- mineral level so --

10 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Well, you know, we

11 think that there already are limits on the use of

12 these highly soluble nutrients and you know, we

13 go back to the preamble of the final rule and

14 looking at, you know, if you look at the original

15 proposed rule and the comments that NOP got on

16 that proposed rule and how the department

17 responded to those comments, it makes clear the

18 intent. The intent was to limit these highly

19 soluble nutrients. So we go back to that and we

20 think that the certifier should already be

21 looking at the issue and restricting dependence

22 of a farmer on highly soluble sources of
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1 nutrients and really looking at Section 205.203

2 of the rule. Is it always happening? We know

3 that we need to tighten that up.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Abby. We

5 have to move on. Up next is Jeffrey Bogusz. 

6 Sorry, Jeff again and then Lauren Johnson. Jeff,

7 you can start with your name and affiliation.

8 MR. BOGUSZ: So it's Jeff Bogusz with

9 the Ferrara Candy Company. Pectin is essential

10 to the manufacturer of the organic confectionary

11 products that we make. The current is not an

12 organic source of pectin so we're going to ask

13 that you keep pectin on the national list.

14 Similarly, bentonite, diatomaceous

15 earth, nitrogen and carbon dioxide could be used

16 by the people who supply us our ingredients and

17 we ask to keep a robust supply chain, you keep

18 those items on the list as well.

19 I'm the handling side of the organic

20 industry and I just want to take this opportunity

21 to say thank you to every -- all the farmers.

22 I feel that we're to a certain degree,
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1 organic by paperwork and it's all the farmers

2 here that actually grow things. Thank you. And

3 this is my third time at NOSB meeting and the

4 tension is just so incredibly thick. It's

5 amazing and so I've been thinking about why and

6 so this is a model that I've seen used in terms

7 of organizations and basically, it talks about

8 the different steps, a pyramid from the group up

9 to build an organization and how every step along

10 the way needs to be congruent with every other.

11 So, you have the environment where

12 things grow. You have the actions, how things

13 are grown, capabilities, learning how to grow

14 things. Then you get to beliefs. Healthy soil

15 makes for healthy world. Things like that. In

16 most arguments, they're usually at that belief

17 level with one person's belief is different than

18 another person's belief. But when it comes to

19 organic, we really go up this chain.

20 Above that is identity and purpose. 

21 These are all so closely tied together with every

22 different individual in this room. Everybody's
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1 purpose is really tied to whether or not

2 something's grown in the land or a container. I

3 mean, it's not -- hopefully this provides a

4 little bit more understanding as to why some of

5 these issues can be so contentious.

6 Looking at it another way, if you look

7 at the hydroponic issue. If you go to the

8 identity level, an organic farmer has their

9 identify based in growing things in the ground. 

10 Hydroponic growers have a different identity. 

11 It's in their name. If I look at the situation

12 here with that regard, their purpose is

13 relatively the same. However, at an identity

14 level, there's the split so -- in my world, if

15 you're going to find a compromise here, it's

16 going to require two different labels, two

17 different identities for the products to match

18 the different identities for the growers.

19 Also, the question that came up

20 yesterday was why are new farmers choosing not to

21 get certified in organic and I think this model

22 kind of shows two questions to ask. How does the
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1 current national organic program differ from

2 their purpose or differ from their identity? You

3 need to go to that level and ask those sorts of

4 questions.

5 Back to gummy bears. How are gummy

6 bears making the earth a better place? I'm just

7 going to add one thing here that -- maybe I

8 won't. Okay.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

10 MR. BOGUSZ: All right, thanks.

11 MR. MORTENSEN: I just wanted to say

12 thank you for the processed thought. I think

13 that's very helpful. Thank you.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much. Up

15 next, we have Lauren Johnson. Lauren Johnson

16 followed by Dave Hiltz. If you notice, we've

17 passed the 10:30 break time. We'll be working

18 through our break. If members need to take a

19 break, do it on your own as necessary. Lauren,

20 if you could start with your name and

21 affiliation.

22 MS. JOHNSON: Good morning. My name is
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1 Lauren Johnson and I'm with the Organic Seed

2 Alliance. We're a nonprofit that works

3 nationally to ensure organic farmers have the

4 seed they need through research, education and

5 advocacy. My comments will touch on the crop

6 subcommittee proposal, Strengthening Organic Seed

7 Guidance.

8 The NOSBs ongoing attention to organic

9 seed underscores the important rule that you as a

10 Board, as well as the NOP and certification

11 community, play in fostering organic seed

12 systems. Developing these systems isn't just

13 about helping certified growers meet a regulatory 

14 requirement. By investing in organic seed, we

15 are diversifying a gene pool that gives organic

16 farmers more tools to not only comply with, but

17 to thrive with organic growing conditions.

18 We believe the crop subcommittee

19 proposal is generally very strong. We support

20 the proposed regulatory change coupled with

21 stronger guidance for certifiers.

22 There are however, a few components of
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1 the proposal that we'd like to see changed,

2 essentially language edits that are described in

3 our written comments before the NOSB votes. We

4 request that the NOSB not pass this proposal as

5 written and that the subcommittee continue work

6 based on our written comments and those of others

7 in this room with the hope that an updated

8 proposal will be back on the agenda this spring

9 for a vote.

10 As OSA shared at the spring meeting,

11 we are developing a manual on organic seed for

12 certifiers and inspectors with the goal of

13 creating a resource that highlights best

14 practices for enforcing the organic seed

15 requirement. The end goal of such a resource is

16 to support reasonable and measurable progress in

17 organic seed usage. We have interviewed nearly a

18 dozen certifiers to identify best practices for

19 enforcement, hear their opinions of what

20 continuous improvement looks like in the context

21 of seed and gather ideas for addressing organic

22 seed usage among the biggest producers.
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1 One of the points of leverage we

2 identified to increase organic seed usage

3 pertains to large producers who contract their

4 entire crop to a buyer. As OSAs data show, many

5 of these large producers are growing under a

6 contract or they might have a variety dictated by

7 their buyer, typically a certified organic

8 handler who is essentially exempt from any

9 responsibility to choose varieties that are

10 available organically or could be available

11 organically with more communication and

12 coordination.

13 Even though the NOP has indicated that

14 it's up to certified producers to apply pressure

15 to their buyers in the area of organic seed, we

16 see it as necessary to find a way to directly

17 place some responsibility on certified handlers

18 that source seed directly for their growers or

19 who dictate a specific variety be grown.

20 We encourage the Board to explore all

21 tools available to them to close this loophole. 

22 Thank you.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Briefly, Steve.

2 MR. ELA: This is brief. So you would

3 prefer to see this go back to the subcommittee

4 and have the language tweaked and then come back

5 in the spring --

6 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.

7 MR. ELA: -- just to be clear?

8 MS. JOHNSON: Yes.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next is

10 Dave Hiltz, followed by Julia Barton. Dave, you

11 can start with your name and affiliation.

12 MR. HILTZ: Good morning and thanks to

13 the Board and the NOP members for their service

14 and the opportunity to comment here this morning. 

15 My name is David Hiltz. I'm the

16 director of Regulatory Affairs at Acadian

17 Seaplants for one of the world's largest

18 manufacturers of products derived for marine

19 algae and we'd like to provide some comments this

20 morning on the subject of marine materials.

21 Arcadian Seaplants appreciates and

22 supports the ongoing efforts of the NOP and the
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1 NOSB to clarify the regulatory language around

2 marine materials. While we support the

3 suggestion to identify products based on Latin

4 naming, we also caution this may be a challenge. 

5 A number of psychologists who are experts in the

6 field of marine taxonomy have commented that even

7 they sometimes have difficulty in identifying

8 closely related marine species. So it may be

9 even more difficult for certifiers to complete a

10 task like this in the field.

11 While we support the principle that

12 sourcing and harvesting of marine materials must

13 be conducted in a sustainable and ecologically

14 sound manner, we continue to be deeply concerned

15 about the comments that portray the industry in a

16 negative light. In particular, there appears to

17 be a misconception that the marine algae

18 ascophyllum nodosum, which is often known as

19 rockweed, is being widely over-harvested with

20 little concern for the effects of the surrounding

21 ecosystem.

22 Arcadian Seaplants would suggest that
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1 the science and the facts surrounding this

2 industry demonstrate that these statements are

3 not accurate. Some comments suggest that the

4 amount of ascophyllum on the shoreline is unknown

5 and that makes harvesting plants arbitrary, but

6 this is not accurate. Government and industry

7 scientists use satellite photography coupled with

8 infield measurements, which we call

9 groundtruthing, to conservatively estimate the

10 biomass. 

11 In Maine for example, these estimates 

12 conservatively put the standing stalk of

13 ascophyllum at approximately 500,000 tons spread

14 over about 3500 miles of coastline. Now, the

15 annual harvest of ascophyllum in Maine as

16 reported by the Department of Marine Resources in

17 2016, was approximately 10,000 tons. This amount

18 represents less than 2 percent of the standing

19 stalk of these species.

20 If one compares that to the amount of

21 conservative scientific estimates of 25 percent

22 of the biomass being naturally removed by coastal
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1 storms and winter ice scour, it becomes clear

2 that the current rate of harvest for this species

3 is actually quite low.

4 It is also suggested that there are no

5 regulations in place to control and monitor the

6 harvest of ascophyllum. Again, this is untrue. 

7 Shoreline is divided into sectors with biomass

8 estimates. Harvesters are licensed, trained and

9 have to adhere to harvesting -- I'm sorry -- and

10 had to adhere to harvesting restrictions and

11 methods and landings are monitored to ensure

12 balance to these policies.

13 For those that are not aware,

14 ascophyllum is actually harvested by cutting the

15 top off the plant.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Emily,

17 briefly.

18 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you for coming and

19 for giving your comments. I was wondering if you

20 would be open to applying the wild crop standard

21 to your harvesting methods and what your thoughts

22 on that are.
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1 MR. HILTZ: We'd have to carefully

2 study that Emily, but yes, I believe we can. In

3 the brief overview of the wild harvesting policy,

4 I believe that the current ascophyllum harvest

5 actually adheres to those policies.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Extremely briefly,

7 Steve.

8 MR. ELA: It seemed like in the public

9 comments and the written comments there was a

10 fair amount of clarity on the main, I mean, you

11 know, the whole main harvesting of rockweed and

12 things but worldwide, it became much less clear

13 about the sustainable harvest. Do you have any

14 suggestions of how we approach that difficulty

15 and, you know, one small area may be sustainable

16 but worldwide, it may not.

17 MR. HILTZ: I can comment from the

18 fact that Acadian Seaplants is based in Atlantic

19 Canada, so I can tell you that the resource has

20 been harvested successfully for a long time, 40-

21 50 years in Atlantic Canada. We have a detailed

22 system in place there that works between the
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1 industry and government to ensure that a

2 sustainable harvest occurs. In other areas of

3 the world, again, there is the same type of

4 philosophy. Our operations in Ireland are

5 progressing in the same direction. Ascophyllum

6 has been harvested extensively in Norway for many

7 years. Again, with no evidence of environmental

8 damage there so --

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

10 MR. HILTZ: Thank you, Tom.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Julia Barton is next,

12 followed by Steve Walker.

13 MS. BARTON: Good morning. My name is

14 Julia Barton. I'm with the Ohio Ecological Food

15 and Farm Association. OEFFA is a grassroots

16 coalition of more than 4800 farmers, researchers,

17 teachers of other folks working to build a

18 healthy and sustainable food system. Our

19 certification program certifies over 1200

20 producers and handlers in about a 10-state

21 region.

22 I'd like to comment on three items. 
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1 First, we respectfully ask that you work to add

2 the topic of oil and gas industry infrastructure 

3 impacts on organic farms to the NOSB work agenda. 

4 In our written comments, we offered ideas for

5 several specific ways we think the NOSB could

6 support organic farmers by addressing these

7 issues. We think first and foremost, it would be

8 important to work towards getting it on the

9 agenda and then we think creating a discussion

10 document to unpack some of these issues would be

11 of particular use to organic farmers.

12 Secondly, thank you for your work to

13 create an open docket. We heard the conversation

14 between Terry Shistar and Dave Mortensen this

15 morning about how we might better offer support

16 to the massive workload of the NOSB. We agree

17 that the open docket has potential to work better

18 if some of the meeting materials were to be made

19 available ahead of the kind of package of meeting

20 materials that comes out a few weeks before

21 comments are due. In particular, we think

22 discussion documents and questions that you have 
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1 -- specific questions that you have in need of

2 feedback would be of particular use. That would

3 enable us to reach out to our farmers, our

4 producers, get their feedback, look for answers

5 for those specific questions for you and to

6 engage in robust dialogue with our colleagues,

7 which helps us inform our own opinions and parse 

8 out some of the challenging issues that we can

9 then provide back to you in the form of written

10 and oral comments. We do our best work when we

11 have plenty of time to do it and we imagine that

12 you might also experience that similarly.

13 Finally, organic production systems

14 must promote ecological balance and conserve

15 biodiversity as recognized by the creators of

16 OEFFA and clearly stated in the organic rule. 

17 OEFFA believes the complex relationships in the

18 soil, along with diverse populations of soil

19 organisms are the foundation of organic farming. 

20 In the absence of clear applicable

21 standards, OEFFA has not certified hydroponic,

22 aeroponic, or aquaponic operations to date. We
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1 appreciate the ongoing work of the crop

2 subcommittee and its compromise proposal. Oxford

3 Dictionary defines compromise as follows: One,

4 to settle -- it's a verb. It's an action. 

5 That's important and I'll stop there.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet, Scott stop

7 there.

8 MS. BEHAR: Can you complete your

9 definition of compromise?

10 MS. BARTON: Yes, I'd be happy to. 

11 Thank you, Harriet. One, to settle a dispute by

12 mutual concession. Two, to accept standards that

13 are lower than is desirable. And if I may add

14 OEFFA supports the crop subcommittee compromise. 

15 Thank you.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Scott?

17 MR. RICE: Hi Julia.

18 MS. BARTON: Hi Scott.

19 MR. RICE: I just wanted to offer that

20 the CACS continues to have the discussion around

21 fracking and water issues in general and where

22 that fits in and appreciate the comments that you
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1 submitted and we're kind of fine tuning how we

2 want to request that be added to our work agenda

3 and how we might move forward on that issue so,

4 thank you.

5 MS. BARTON: Thank you, we appreciate

6 your consideration.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, we're going

8 to have to move on now. Up next is Stephen --

9 I'm sorry, we have to move on. Up next is

10 Stephen Walker, followed by Christie Badger. 

11 Stephen, you can start with your name and

12 affiliation.

13 MR. WALKER: Okay, good morning. I'm

14 Steve Walker, Operations Manager at MOSA. We

15 certify about 2000 operations across the U.S. We

16 submitted half a dozen written comments on agenda

17 items for this meeting and in this three minutes,

18 I want to address the proposal on native

19 ecosystems.

20 We support the concept of a rule

21 change to require a waiting period before a

22 native ecosystem site could be used for organic
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1 production and we appreciate changes made in

2 response to the spring comment period but we ask

3 for further development of the current proposal. 

4 We'd also like to see additional emphasis on

5 incentives to complement the 10-year waiting

6 period disincentive.

7 The proposed regulatory change is

8 pretty simple. It seems fairly practical to

9 verify and creates a disincentive without

10 categorically preventing organics regenerative

11 capability in unfortunate cases where native

12 ecosystem land has already been taken for

13 agricultural use. However, we need a native

14 ecosystem definition and we think such a

15 definition should assess the land's current

16 ecological value, which is not necessarily

17 related to the land's historical use.

18 We do have some unresolved concerns

19 about suggested verification tools such as

20 satellite images, old photographs or assessment

21 of FSA records. We're unsure of the availability

22 of such information. Accessibility of resources
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1 and training will be necessary for consistent

2 enforcement. Such review tools are not currently

3 in our certifier toolbox. We'd like

4 clarification whether such historical

5 verification would always be expected or only

6 when we have indicators of recent ecosystem

7 destruction. And I'd say our toolbox needs both

8 sticks and carrots; enforcement needs a positive

9 counterpart.

10 Though probably outside of the scope

11 of this proposal, we strongly encourage economic

12 incentives for transitioning conventional acreage

13 to organic. Our values call us not only to

14 prevent loss of important habitats but also to

15 encourage more organic production, especially as

16 a conventional agriculture replacement. And

17 there's need for right vision. Unfortunately,

18 the relative scarcity of native ecosystems

19 doesn't translate to how most folks usually see

20 economic value.

21 Yesterday in the context of

22 considering regeneration and resource depletion,
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1 I was pleased to hear a couple of references to

2 Aldo Leopold. In the forward to A Sand County

3 Almanac, he wrote, we abuse land because we

4 regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When

5 we see land as a community to which we belong, we

6 may begin to use it with love and respect.

7 Organic farmers may have better eyes

8 to see the value of biodiversity and cooperation

9 with Gaia. Education even through enforcement

10 can expand that global vision for the benefit of

11 us all. Thanks.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Emily.

13 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you for your

14 comments and I just wanted to suggest that you

15 look at the open docket for the comments by

16 NatureServe because they did provide some

17 additional tools for referencing back

18 historically and I also just wanted to point out

19 that the length of time through which this

20 proposal might get eventually passed and then go

21 through rule making is probably pretty long --

22 MR. WALKER: Yes.
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1 MS. OAKLEY: -- so I think we can

2 anticipate that should this get passed at some

3 point and eventually become a rule, we will have

4 even greater historical knowledge and satellite

5 images from which to work. But I also really

6 appreciate your comment that does this work need

7 to happen on every single certification

8 application or only ones in which there is a

9 question of applicability, so thank you.

10 MR. WALKER: Yes, I kind of imagine

11 that's something certifiers can work out within

12 ourselves as far as best practices and so forth

13 and I'm not criticizing the tools. I'm just

14 saying that, you know, right now it's not

15 something we're used to. We can get there.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Stephen. Up

17 next we have -- sorry Asa, we don't have time. 

18 Up next, we have Christie Badger, followed by

19 Suzanne McMillan. Christie, you --- 

20 MS. BADGER: Good morning.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: -- can start with your

22 name and affiliation.
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1 MS. BADGER: Yes. Good morning, my

2 name is Christie Badger and I'm speaking today on

3 behalf of the National Organic Coalition. Thank

4 you for the opportunity to address the Board and

5 thank each of you for the important, torturous

6 and time consuming work that you do as volunteers

7 on the NOSB.

8 Sanitizers: NOC appreciates the

9 consideration for adding a comprehensive review

10 of sanitizers, disinfectants and cleaners to the

11 work agenda and we are strongly in support of

12 this important work being added to the work

13 agenda. NOC urges review of all subcommittees --

14 - across all subcommittees to help identify areas

15 where there are gaps in necessary sanitizers or

16 disinfectants, which aid crops, livestock and/or

17 handling operations, and promotion of organic

18 food safety. As noted in our written comments,

19 this would benefit not only the NOSB, but also

20 the organic stakeholders.

21 Organic economic development

22 opportunities: NOC would like to encourage the
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1 NOSB to add the topic of organic economic

2 development opportunities to its work agenda. 

3 Often tough issues could be addressed if some

4 enterprising person or persons were to capitalize

5 on a gap or opportunity in organic production or

6 handling. This would allow entrepreneurs to look

7 to the NOSB for opportunities when proposing

8 ideas to investors, helping to inform the

9 industry of opportunities for growth in the

10 organic sector.

11 Oxytocin: NOC strongly supports the

12 subcommittee's recommendation to remove oxytocin

13 from the National List. Oxytocin is a protein

14 hormone, not only in -- not a body building

15 steroid hormone. It occurs in all mammals, both

16 male and female; however, there is confusion and

17 the word hormone is misunderstood by consumers

18 and as such, leaves organic dairy producers open

19 to claims that hormones are allowed for use. It

20 is not an essential material for organic

21 production.

22 As an independent organic inspector
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1 performing more than 200 inspections yearly, many

2 of them dairy operations, I ask farmers if they

3 need oxytocin. More than 90 percent of them tell

4 me no, with others telling me that they don't

5 need it but they like having it in their toolbox. 

6 I have never once had an organic dairy farmer

7 tell me that they could not remain in production

8 without oxytocin.

9 Clarifying emergency for the use of

10 synthetic parasiticides, and organic livestock

11 production, we urge it to go back to

12 subcommittee. We understand the hesitancy to

13 define the term emergency, but this confusion

14 could be eliminated by defining the term

15 emergency use for parasiticides.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Questions? 

17 Thank you, Christie.

18 MS. BADGER: Thanks.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next, we have Suzanne 

20 McMillan, followed by Colehour Bondera. You can

21 start with your name and affiliation.

22 MS. MCMILLAN: Hello, Suzanne
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1 McMillan, content director, Farm Animal Welfare

2 Campaign with the ASPCA, which is the American

3 Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. 

4 I'm glad to be here today on behalf of 

5 our 6.5 million supporters nationwide. We thank

6 the NOSB for helping to get the Organic Livestock

7 and Poultry Practices Rule finalized with USDA. 

8 We remain committed to seeing it implemented as

9 we approach its third implementation date, now

10 set for November 14th. However, given the

11 repeated delays, we no longer feel that we can

12 afford to await implementation before continuing 

13 to develop further animal welfare recommendations

14 for the Organic Program.

15 USDA declined in its final rule to

16 take up a number of outstanding animal welfare

17 issues, at times citing the need for, or at

18 minimum receptivity to, NOSB recommendations. 

19 Examples include poultry genetics with respect to

20 breeds, growth rates or suitability to outdoor

21 access, swine outdoor areas, mammalian ammonia

22 rate caps and space allowances for species other
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1 than chickens, in particular they called out

2 turkeys and swine outdoors.

3 To this end, we're grateful for NOSB's

4 proposed research priority of organic livestock

5 breeding. This is critical given the organic

6 regulations requirement of, quote, selection of

7 species and types of livestock with regard to

8 suitability for site-specific conditions and

9 resistance to prevalent diseases and parasites,

10 unquote. However, even beyond outdoor settings,

11 genetics are critical because conventional breeds

12 and strains face severe challenges even in basic

13 indoor settings. They simply are not made for

14 basic survival and thriving.

15 Similarly and related is the research

16 priority proposal of methionine in the context of

17 a system approach in organic poultry production. 

18 This topic is closely tied to both poultry

19 genetics and poultry living conditions, each of

20 which in turn informs other aspects of welfare,

21 hence very much a systems approach, which it

22 sounds like you're preparing to take and we
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1 encourage and would say is in fact essential for

2 all questions of welfare.

3 I thank the NOSB for addressing these

4 two critical topics of poultry genetics and

5 methionine and I hope you will consider the

6 additional topics I've mentioned as well. As

7 always, the ASPCA looks forward to working with

8 you to provide any input or support that may be

9 needed. Thank you.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Suzanne. 

11 Emily.

12 MS. OAKLEY: I was wondering if you

13 had any concerns about animal welfare issues in

14 the sulfur petition in livestock and the fact

15 that it's a known skin and eye irritant and that

16 it would be applied topically to the animals. 

17 Are you concerned about that in any way?

18 MS. MCMILLAN: You know, we haven't

19 dealt with that issue. We haven't addressed

20 that. We don't have a position on that. It's

21 something I would be happy to bring back to some

22 of our scientists and see if they can formulate a
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1 position for us. So, it's nothing I can comment

2 on right now.

3 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you. Steve.

4 MR. ELA: I'd be curious about your

5 organization's position on cruelty to animals if

6 Tom keeps us through lunch.

7 MS. MCMILLAN: I didn't hear all of

8 that. Okay.

9 MS. SWAFFAR: I have one for you. 

10 Suzanne, thank you so much for your commitment to 

11 seeing forward OLPP and I think that's one thing

12 that was really left out of the Program update

13 yesterday. So I'd like to ask the Program if you

14 have an update on OLPP?

15 DR. TUCKER: OLPP continues to be

16 under review by the administration.

17 MS. MCMILLAN: Thank you. All right,

18 thank you.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next is

20 Colehour Bondera, followed by Robert Rankin. To

21 respond to Steve's questions, I don't know how

22 many questions animals ask, so that might be
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1 somewhat related to whether or not they get fed. 

2 Colehour.

3 MR. BONDERA: Aloha --- 

4 MR. CHAPMAN: If you could state your

5 name and affiliation.

6 MR. BONDERA: Colehour Bondera, I'm

7 here from a diversified Kanalani Ohana Farm in

8 Hawaii. My thanks to Beyond Pesticides for

9 allowing me to be here as well.

10 I'll let you all know that I grew up

11 with 10 siblings on a farm in Oregon. We weren't

12 wealthy but my family knew that if we had to do

13 it, that a watered down soup isn't poisonous but

14 it also isn't as tasty or healthy, so please do

15 not water down the standards of organics.

16 Let me share some thoughts about

17 organics. They may include temporary variances

18 but at the end of the day, your role is to

19 guarantee the integrity of organics.

20 As Lisa Brines noted to us, the

21 livestock subcommittee will be considering a

22 petition for OAD, oxalic acid dihydrate to help
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1 control varroa mite in bee hives. Remember that

2 in Hawaii, bees do not have the same kind of

3 downtime as some bees do in temperate areas. 

4 Please urgently consider approval of this

5 material.

6 Also, I really want you to seriously

7 consider any requests that you receive for a

8 boric acid formulation to help with little fire

9 ants. Hawaii is facing a little fire ant an

10 emergency in the coffee crop and at this time,

11 there is no certified organic control.

12 Regarding hydroponics, let me first

13 thank Francis Thicke for his service on the NOSB. 

14 He and I overlapped, with my service ending in

15 January 2016. Really thank you, Francis, for

16 your support in guiding us through hydroponics. 

17 Here are some hydroponic thoughts that

18 come to you via me, via Sam Welsch of OneCert who

19 served on the hydro task force and they include

20 the following. In 1995 NOSB said, quote unquote,

21 hydroponic production in soil-less media to be

22 labeled organically produced shall be allowed if
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1 all provisions of the OFPA have been met. Since

2 it is impossible to regulate hydroponic

3 production, which compiles with the OFPA

4 requirement of management -- for management of

5 soil content in the soil, it can't be certified.

6 Next, remember no certified hydroponic 

7 operations existed before 2005 when NOP decided

8 that hydroponics could be certified. Prior it

9 was clear that OFPA and USDA organic regulations

10 required soil. After the NOP statement,

11 certifiers began ignoring those requirements in

12 order to certify hydroponic operations.

13 In reference to a letter from USDA,

14 Richard Matthews in 2005, we all should still be

15 awaiting the rule requirements for improving or

16 maintaining soil organic matter content for

17 hydroponic operations. Remember that soil is the

18 soul of organic and really overall, NOSB must

19 work with NOP to ensure enforcement of standards

20 as advised. Mahalo.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Questions? Colehour, I

22 want to ask you about that statement you just
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1 read. If it was so clear that it was not going

2 to be allowed, why would they put that in there

3 in the first place? I don't see any similar

4 statements around irradiation or not, you know,

5 GMO organisms. Why even put that in there? Why 

6 create the possibility of confusion?

7 MR. BONDERA: I think -- my read of

8 that would be leave the door open as a

9 possibility if somebody -- to make sure that the

10 if part, what, you know, if it could be addressed

11 but it hasn't been so I think why would you

12 include that? Because it hadn't been thought

13 about or discussed or analyzed enough by anybody

14 and so the argument must have been between the

15 people involved, you know, maybe, if, let's talk

16 about it. But since it doesn't, I don't think

17 that there's any further discussion at this time

18 unless someone could --

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you and I --

20 MR. BONDERA: -- explain that.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: -- just want to point

22 out that in the crops proposal, there is a quote
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1 from 2002 from the National Organic Program,

2 taken from the transcripts of an NOSB meeting

3 stating that the --- quote unquote, from the

4 program manager, Matthews, the policy statement

5 that is on the web in regards to the scope of the

6 National Organic Standards includes hydroponics,

7 so it goes as far back as 2002.

8 MR. BONDERA: To be --

9 MR. CHAPMAN: That the Program was

10 saying --

11 MR. BONDERA: -- considered, right.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: -- it was included.

13 MR. BONDERA: Right.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes.

15 MR. BONDERA: As a --

16 MR. CHAPMAN: You had stated 2005. 

17 I'm just saying it went back as far as 2002.

18 MR. BONDERA: All right, thank you.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

20 MR. BONDERA: You're welcome.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Robert

22 Rankin, followed by Lori Klope. Sorry, Lori.
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1 MR. RANKIN: Hi, Robert Rankin --

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Robert, -- 

3 MR. RANKIN: -- executive director of

4 International Food Additives Council. IFAC is a

5 global association representing manufacturers of

6 food ingredients including food additives

7 permitted for use in organic products.

8 IFAC strongly supports the Handling

9 Subcommittee's unanimous vote to re-list sodium

10 phosphate. Phosphates have a long history of

11 safe use in food and their safety is supported by

12 global regulatory authorities. Sodium phosphates 

13 are essential in the production of certain

14 organic dairy products, particularly shelf stable 

15 cheese powders and cheese sauces.

16 We would like to reiterate some of our

17 previous comments regarding the NOSB discussion

18 document on phosphates published last April. 

19 First, it has been suggested phosphates interfere

20 with the absorption of calcium. This is not a

21 true statement. The scientific literature

22 actually shows that phosphorus aides in the
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1 absorption of calcium.

2 Another point we'd like to make is the

3 reference to the 2001 TAP report and health

4 impacts related to the use of phosphates as bowel 

5 purgatives and cleansers. The discussion

6 document omits an important statement that these

7 affects are not directly relevant to food as they

8 are administered differently than consuming

9 phosphates through food. This point is critical

10 and should be considered by the NOSB.

11 Thirdly, the discussion document

12 incorrectly suggests consumers are not aware they

13 are consuming phosphates because phosphorus does

14 not appear on the nutrition facts panel. Sodium

15 phosphates, like all phosphates, are required to

16 be included in the ingredient list whenever they

17 are used in a food.

18 Finally, the discussion documents

19 suggest there are alternatives to sodium

20 phosphates in Europe. The U.S. and European

21 organic markets are very different in part due to

22 consumer preferences. Alternatives to sodium
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1 phosphate do not perform the same function and

2 their use results in an inferior product compared

3 to those that contain sodium phosphates.

4 We would like to reiterate some past

5 comments as well on the technical report on

6 phosphates. First of all, phosphates do not

7 increase serum phosphorus more so than natural

8 occurring phosphorus. We also object to the

9 claim that the elevated serum phosphorus

10 contributes to the development of renal and

11 vascular disease in the general population. The

12 existing literature focuses on specific health13 compromised patient populations and cannot be

14 applied to the majority of consumers.

15 As we noted previously, we sponsored

16 an expert scientific evaluation, independent, I

17 should say, of the peer-reviewed literature

18 regarding food phosphates. The report found no

19 definitive conclusion between the consumption of

20 phosphates and negative health impacts in the

21 general population. This was published in

22 September in Comprehensive Reviews in Food
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1 Science and Food Safety and the report reviewed

2 over 110 primary research articles as opposed to

3 the TR, which looked at about 30.

4 We'd also like to support the Handling

5 Subcommittee's vote to re-list non-amidated

6 pectin. This is used to thicken and gel organic

7 products, particularly with jams and jellies, as

8 well as fruit fillings commonly found in bakery

9 products. In many of these applications, no

10 alternative exists and organic pectin is not

11 available in the quantity needed to supply the

12 market.

13 We also finally support the re-listing

14 of konjac flour. This has numerous functions and

15 it's used in a variety of products.

16 In conclusion, we support the

17 proposals to retain -- or the votes to re-list

18 sodium phosphates and non-amidated pectin. We

19 also support the re-listing of konjac flour. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Emily,

22 Harriet, Scott and Joelle briefly please. Emily.
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1 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you for your

2 comments. You mentioned that sodium phosphate is

3 not used in Europe or allowed and that the

4 consumer preferences between the United States

5 and Europe are different. Would you say that's

6 attributable to a greater preference for

7 processed foods in the United States?

8 MR. RANKIN: Essentially. The

9 products in which sodium phosphate is used in

10 organic cheese-type products like macaroni and

11 cheese and things, those aren't commonly consumed

12 in Europe in the market. The consumers when they 

13 consume their cheese, it's usually through the,

14 you know, cheese itself versus, you know,

15 processed products that use a cheese. 

16 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet.

17 MS. BEHAR: Sodium citrate is also --

18 can be used in cheese powders. Can you speak to

19 why you need the sodium phosphate instead of

20 sodium citrate?

21 MR. RANKIN: Sure and there will be

22 commenters addressing that more specifically than
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1 I, but yes it is. It is -- it can be used. It

2 does not perform the same function as sodium

3 phosphate. It doesn't result in some of the same

4 properties that sodium phosphate presents in

5 those products like organic macaroni and cheese

6 and such. There's a buffering capacity to

7 achieve a -- you know, when working with certain

8 pH levels in foods. Sodium phosphate has a

9 better result than sodium citrate there in terms

10 of emulsification.

11 Sodium phosphate performs better than

12 sodium citrate. When you use sodium citrate or

13 use a combination of the two, you actually have

14 to use more of the material to achieve the same

15 functions. Sodium phosphate you can use a lower

16 level than when you combine with sodium citrate

17 and then it just also provides the expectation

18 consumers want in terms of the consistency, the

19 texture of the product. Sodium phosphate gives

20 that creamier texture. Sodium citrate, not so

21 much. It's not as creamy and it also can result

22 in some off flavors that consumers would maybe
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1 not prefer as much as sodium phosphate allows.

2 MR. RICE: I had a question on konjac

3 flour. At our spring meeting, we asked if you

4 could forward us some specific products that are

5 currently certified organic and use konjac flour

6 and I didn't see any of that info submitted so

7 just looking for any products that are out there 

8 that are currently certified and employing that.

9 MR. RANKIN: Right, we looked for that

10 and we made some inquiries and we weren't able to

11 get any information for this meeting so I'm not

12 aware of that.

13 MR. RICE: Okay, thank you.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Joelle.

15 MS. MOSSO: Just a quick question in

16 regards to the concentration of sodium phosphates

17 often used in the annotation with the dairy

18 products.

19 MR. RANKIN: Okay, what was the

20 question?

21 MS. MOSSO: Concentration of sodium

22 phosphates in a finished application.
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1 MR. RANKIN: It's very small. There

2 is someone commenting after me who can answer

3 that more specifically. She's a food scientist. 

4 I don't know the exact levels. Sorry.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I have one

6 question too. You had a note in there saying

7 that if sodium phosphates were used in a food, it

8 would appear on the ingredient panel but we

9 received a written comment from a food

10 manufacturer who says one of their processors

11 uses it to prevent fouling of cream lines in a

12 dairy processing plant and that's considered a

13 processing aid and not required to be labeled. 

14 So, who is right? 

15 MR. RANKIN: Processing aids don't

16 need to be labeled. Processing aids are not

17 expected to provide any presence in the final

18 product, so I would say if it's added as an

19 ingredient in this type of a function for the

20 cheese, you know, powdered cheese sauce, it would

21 be listed and we also found a list of other

22 products -- organic products, mostly macaroni and
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1 cheese type products but also protein dairy

2 shakes. They all list sodium phosphate on the

3 ingredient list. I can't speak to that specific 

4 question about the processing. International

5 Dairy Foods Association may be speaking and could

6 speak to that.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Processing aids don't --

8 are removed from the final product or don't have

9 a technical affect in the final product?

10 MR. RANKIN: It's expected they are

11 not really present in the final product. They

12 are just used to kind of help make the product

13 and by the time you get to the final product,

14 it's not there in any measurable or you know,

15 notable levels.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you. 

17 Up next we have Lori, followed by Ron Mitchell.

18 MR. KLOPF: Good morning. My name is 

19 Lori Klopf and I work for ICL Food Specialties, a

20 food ingredient company in St. Louis. I'm here

21 to support the continued listing of sodium

22 phosphates on the National List.
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1 Our company is a member of the

2 International Food Additives Council and we have

3 submitted our written comments to the NOSB

4 through this association.

5 Sodium phosphates have been on the

6 National List for a limited use in dairy foods

7 for many years. They are safe in human foods and

8 have an essential functionality in certain types

9 of organic dairy foods. Today I will address

10 some of the reasons why sodium phosphates are

11 required for these food applications.

12 The category of sodium phosphates on

13 the National List includes three food additives: 

14 monosodium, disodium and trisodium phosphate. 

15 One of the dairy food applications that may

16 include sodium phosphates are those with a cheese

17 sauce or powder such as macaroni and cheese and

18 cheese dips. Dairy-based protein shakes and

19 beverages have also become popular items for the

20 organic consumer. These food products require

21 sodium phosphates to provide a smooth and creamy 

22 mouthfeel. This is accomplished through pH
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1 buffering and also emulsification of the natural

2 protein, fat and water in the dairy products.

3 In organic foods -- dairy foods,

4 sodium phosphates are usually selected as the

5 best choice for emulsifying salt due to superior

6 buffering and emulsifying capacity, texture and

7 taste.

8 The buffering system in dairy foods is

9 typically a neutral pH. In this graph, the

10 ability of sodium phosphate to buffer is compared

11 with sodium citrate, another emulsifier. In the

12 neutral pH range shown in the green box on the

13 graph, it is apparent that sodium phosphate, the

14 black line, is much more effective than sodium

15 citrate; therefore, a lower level of sodium

16 phosphate can be used to achieve the required pH. 

17 Similarly, the ability of sodium

18 phosphates to provide emulsification to dairy

19 foods is much better than with sodium citrate. 

20 While some food formulators will use a phosphate

21 citrate blend, the overall amount required is

22 higher, which increases both the number of
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1 ingredients and the cost of the product. In

2 cases where only sodium citrate is used, it has

3 been found that calcium citrate crystals may also

4 form in the cheese products due to the higher

5 level of sodium citrate needed for this

6 functionality.

7 Both the texture and the flavor of

8 dairy products will also be affected by the

9 choice of an emulsifying salt. The texture of

10 cheese has been shown to be better when only

11 sodium phosphates are used. In addition, sodium

12 citrates based on citric acid can contribute to

13 sour flavor to finished foods while the sodium

14 phosphates do not affect the taste.

15 In summary, sodium phosphates have

16 been determined to be safe for human consumption

17 by the U.S. and by international food regulatory

18 agencies. Sodium phosphates are essential for

19 use in dairy foods. They provide the required

20 texture, stability and taste to these organic

21 foods and there are not other suitable

22 alternatives that provide the same properties. 
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1 Thank you.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Questions? 

3 Lisa.

4 MS. DE LIMA: Hi. Do you know if a

5 combination of organic corn starch and organic

6 maltodextrin would have a similar effect, because

7 I see some products on the market when it comes

8 to macaroni and cheese that use that combination

9 and don't have sodium phosphates.

10 MS. KLOPF: No, they would not have

11 the same. They are not emulsifiers, so they

12 would not have the same effect. In a dairy

13 product, you need an emulsifier to take the

14 protein, fat and water in the dairy product and

15 basically turn that into one phase. That's what

16 emulsification is, so the starches will not do

17 that.

18 MS. DE LIMA: So could the emulsifier

19 be a non-animal enzyme that's providing the same

20 function? I'm trying to figure out what else in

21 this other -- this product that doesn't have the

22 phosphate, how they're getting a --
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1 MS. KLOPF: And what we've found too -

2 - we've looked at some of those and when we've

3 actually made those products, like the boxed

4 macaroni and cheese mixes, you do not have a

5 cheese sauce that is creamy and smooth like you

6 would in what you'd anticipate or expect to find

7 in a normal macaroni and cheese product.

8 MS. DE LIMA: Okay.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Joelle.

10 MS. MOSSO: Same question. Can you

11 give any indication to the concentration level of

12 sodium phosphates?

13 MS. KLOPF: It can vary, but sodium

14 phosphates are very effective pH buffers and

15 emulsifiers, as I showed on the graph, so really

16 very low levels are affective. Approximately

17 half percent or less is typically used to achieve

18 that effect.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next is

20 Ron Mitchell, followed by Anja Anderson.

21 MR. MITCHELL: Hello. Thank you for

22 having me. My name is Ron Mitchell. I'm the
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1 owner-operator of Local Greens Farm in Berkeley,

2 California, a family owned urban vertical indoor

3 farm. We grow sprouts, microgreens, lettuce and

4 basil year around for retail markets in Northern

5 California. I have been growing organic

6 hydroponic vegetables for over 47 years.

7 The advantage of our sustainable

8 system: All incoming air and water is filtered

9 so we have no insects. We use no pesticides,

10 herbicides, fungicides or any cides at all. Our

11 recirculating system uses two percent of the

12 water used by an average farm. We compost all of

13 our plant waste. Our carbon foot print is very

14 small and we are working towards zero in the near

15 future.

16 Here is how we do this. I grow all

17 our plants on HDPE plastic trays from germination

18 to seven to ten days old using only filtered

19 water. I then cut them right above the roots and

20 package them and sell them as microgreens. I

21 sell about 8,000 pounds of these per month. I

22 take all the roots and seeds and waste, about
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1 14,000 pounds per month, and compost it. I give

2 80 percent of the raw compost to organic farmers

3 and gardeners to use on their land such as UC

4 Berkeley, which is right next door. The

5 remaining 20 percent get fed to my army of worms

6 that turn it into vermicompost.

7 I then use this vermicompost to make

8 my tea -- my vermicompost tea. This tea is used

9 to feed my larger plants I grow, like basil and

10 lettuce. The roots of these plants are alive

11 with bacteria and fungi. I know this because I

12 see them in my microscope. We grow this way not

13 to out-compete but to get more organic vegetables

14 on the table year-round and to help save the

15 planet.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Questions

17 for Ron? Steve.

18 MR. ELA: So how would you

19 characterize your crop rotation then? I mean,

20 you're composting material, but where's the

21 rotation and where are your nutrient sources

22 other than the vermicompost?
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1 MR. MITCHELL: Well, the rotation, it

2 happens all the time, every 10 days. I mean, we

3 change product on the trays and that also changes

4 the compost. And what was the other question?

5 MR. ELA: The source of -- do you use

6 other nutrition other than vermicompost for the

7 tea you mentioned.

8 MR. MITCHELL: Yes. That is

9 proprietary but we do use OMRI-certified

10 components. For instance, we use kelp that's,

11 you know -- I mean it's really useful for a lot

12 of different things.

13 MS. OAKLEY: Sorry to interrupt. What

14 was it that you just said? I didn't hear that. 

15 You use what? I didn't hear that.

16 MR. MITCHELL: Oh, kelp.

17 MS. OAKLEY: Kelp. Thank you.

18 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, among other

19 things.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Harriet.

21 MR. MITCHELL: Also I would like to

22 make a comment about the use of nitrogen. In my
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1 work, I find that most people use way too much

2 nitrogen in the soil or anywhere just because

3 they don't know the levels.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Harriet.

5 MS. BEHAR: Can you tell me about the

6 artificial light? Is it full spectrum, how many

7 hours?

8 MR. MITCHELL: Yes. It's different

9 for each type of plant, and I've been doing this

10 work for over 15 years, working with lighting,

11 and we use LED lighting that has been worked

12 through the universities to the right spectrum

13 for each plant, and we also give them about six

14 hours of what most people think of as rest but is

15 actually when the plant really grows, using the

16 energy it gets from the light.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. We have to

18 move on. Sorry Asa. We have to keep going. 

19 Sorry. Thank you very much.

20 MR. MITCHELL: Thanks for having me.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. Up next is Anja,

22 followed by Jessica Knutzon. Sorry. Anja, you
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1 can start with your name and affiliation for the 

2 record.

3 MS. ANDERSON: My name is Anja

4 Anderson, and I'm here to represent IPPA, the

5 International Pectin Producers Association, and

6 I'm here to provide comments to the Board on

7 pectin.

8 So IPPA is a global association of

9 independent companies who produce pectin. Total 

10 pectin production from IPPA members represent

11 more than 95 percent of the commercially

12 available volume. And IPPA supports retaining of

13 non-amidated pectin on the National List.

14 Pectin is naturally present in plants;

15 however, from a commercial side, pectin

16 containing raw materials of interest include peel

17 from lemon, lime and oranges, and also apple

18 pomace. Commercial pectin is obtained by

19 extraction from selected raw materials. The raw

20 materials are by-products from industrial juice

21 and citrus oil production. So by-products are

22 converted into high specialty ingredients that
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1 can be used in the food industry. Specific

2 desirable functional properties of the pectin are

3 controlled through selection of raw materials and

4 by observing certain extraction and processing

5 conditions.

6 Currently, no IPPA member produces

7 certified organic pectin, and to the best of our

8 knowledge, certified organic pectin is not

9 available. Also, organic raw materials are not

10 available in the quality or quantity to support

11 sustainable production of organic pectin.

12 It is our understanding that this

13 market situation is not likely to change for

14 several years, and as such, we recommend

15 retaining a non-amidated pectin on the National

16 List. Thank you.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

18 MS. BEHAR: Is there any task force or

19 anything in your association to overcome some of

20 these barriers to producing organic pectin?

21 MS. ANDERSON: We're working with

22 suppliers, and we need raw materials from both
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1 lime and citrus and oranges currently, and what

2 our raw material suppliers inform us is that the

3 lime and lemons -- organically produced or grown

4 limes and lemons are mainly sold to fresh produce

5 so they're not even -- and we use the by-products

6 from juice production, so the raw materials are

7 not available for us. We don't have a task force

8 per se but we monitor the market situation.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next is

10 Jessica Knutzon, followed by Wanda Jurlina. 

11 Jessica, you can start with your name and

12 affiliation.

13 MS. KNUTZON: I have a presentation

14 but I'll just start talking. I am Jessica

15 Knutzon and I am a marketing manager at CP Kelco,

16 a hydrocolloid manufacturer.

17 Pectin occurs naturally and provides

18 structure in many fruits and vegetables. Pectin

19 as an ingredient is a polysaccharide, typically

20 extracted from citrus, apple and sugar beet. 

21 Pectin can provide gelation, viscosity, protein

22 protection or emulsification. It has many unique
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1 properties, one of which is its great acid

2 stability, which is key to many fruit-based

3 products like juices and preserves.

4 As a marketer, I cannot forget to

5 mention consumers. Consumers are familiar with

6 pectin. It's an ingredient that their families

7 use to make jam, and it's recognizable and easy

8 to understand as a product.

9 There are three main types of pectin

10 used as an ingredient. There is high ester, low

11 ester conventional and low ester amidated pectin. 

12 My colleague, Wanda, who will be commenting right

13 after me will present more details on low ester

14 pectin and I will review high ester pectin with

15 you today.

16 As mentioned before, pectin can

17 provide gelation, which is why products like jam

18 and jelly gel. Pectins gel under very specific

19 conditions. The pH level needs to be quite low,

20 typically less than 3.5. Brix, which is the

21 soluble solids of a product or dissolved sugar,

22 needs to be pretty high as well, so there needs
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1 to be relatively high sugar system to make the

2 pectin gel. Without the high sugar content and

3 the low pH level, there won't be a gel with high

4 ester pectin. Without these two conditions, you

5 will get viscosity or protein protection.

6 Here are some of the products that use

7 gelation and use pectin to create them. So jams,

8 jellies, marmalades, bake stable, bakery fillings

9 and gelatin-free confectionary products.

10 Products that don't meet the

11 requirements for gelation benefit from high ester

12 pectin in different ways. High ester pectin

13 provides products like fruit juices, fruit

14 beverages and low sugar drinks with viscosity and

15 mouthfeel.

16 High ester pectin also provides

17 protein protection in milk beverages, fruit

18 beverages, protein fortified fruit drinks and

19 smoothies. High ester pectin plays an important

20 role in food manufacturing across a variety of

21 applications. Wanda Jurlina will now present

22 information on low ester pectins for you.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you

2 very much.

3 Up next is Wanda, followed by Lee

4 Frankel. Wanda, you can start with your name and

5 affiliation.

6 MS. JURLINA: Here we go. All right,

7 my name is Wanda Jurlina. I am the manager of

8 technical services for CP Kelco. We are a

9 hydrocolloid producer and in the product range

10 that we produce includes pectin -- a wide variety

11 of different pectin ingredients.

12 So with that, Jessica has introduced

13 you to the range of pectin products that are on

14 the market to meet the different needs of the

15 producers of a variety of different types of

16 products. I'm going to focus on low ester

17 conventional pectins, in addition to the high

18 ester pectins. Those are the ones that are

19 approved for use in organic products.

20 Amidated products, as you all know,

21 were voted to be removed from the list and are

22 not currently used in organic products. From our
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1 perspective, it's very easy to tell which pectins

2 are amidated, and I can say for Anja's company as

3 well, all of the names of those pectins that are

4 amidated have a designation in the name that

5 indicate that it's amidated and they will say on

6 their product data sheets that they're amidated. 

7 So they are very well identified for the market

8 to understand which pectins they can use in

9 organic products.

10 Jessica gave you the basics on where

11 high ester pectins gel. The cool thing about low

12 methoxyl pectins is that they gel in a variety of

13 different situations. They're much more flexible

14 on the pH than the solids levels that they

15 function at, so it gives product developers that

16 aren't working at very high solids and very low

17 pH an option to create a gel texture.

18 So those types of products that we see

19 within the organic product families, where low

20 methoxyl pectins are typically used, include

21 products like yogurt fruit preps. So think of

22 the fruit that's on the bottom of an organic
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1 yogurt cup or is blended with yogurt white mass

2 to produce a stirred product. Pectin is used

3 extensively in those types of products to

4 actually thicken the product, keep it uniform in

5 the 1,000-kilo tote that it's packaged in, as

6 well as holding onto liquid in those systems so

7 that they don't get a lot of separation in that

8 huge container.

9 It's also used extensively in yogurt

10 white mass where people are looking for a non11 gelatin or a non-starch based thickener to use in

12 those particular products. High ester pectins

13 don't give body and texture in those types of

14 systems, so they're not routinely used in that

15 application.

16 The last area is fruit spreads. Fruit

17 spreads give manufacturers an option to deliver a

18 product with less sugar than the traditional jams

19 and marmalades. So there's a range of those

20 types of products on the market as well.

21 I've also included two other slides

22 that I shared during the April meeting reminding
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1 the team -- the NOSB, the differences between

2 pectin and the competition as far as the

3 properties.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Emily.

5 MS. OAKLEY: I'm sure you're aware

6 from previous comments of the desire to have an

7 organic pectin.

8 MS. JURLINA: Yes.

9 MS. OAKLEY: Could you elaborate on

10 that and tell me what that limitation is?

11 MS. JURLINA: I can't -- I actually

12 would have loved to be the that presented that

13 for you. We have a great slide that we use. 

14 It's called the lemon's tale. It talks about

15 what goes into producing organic pectin. The

16 first thing is, is you have to have an organic

17 peel source in a place where you have a drying

18 operation that basically within 24 hours of

19 juicing the fruit and pressing it for oil, that

20 you have it sufficiently dried so that it can be

21 transported to manufacturing locations.

22 Setting up drying operations is
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1 extremely expensive and when you're looking at a

2 highly fragmented industry, like an organic

3 processor, it's extremely difficult to put the

4 commercial resources into drying the peel where

5 it's available so that you have enough organic

6 peel to actually produce an organic pectin. So

7 sourcing the raw material truly is the biggest

8 concern for our industry to provide a certified

9 organic product.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Steve.

11 MR. ELA: Do you see any potential for

12 organic options for the equivalent of an amidated 

13 pectin that works under the conditions you've

14 described? I mean there are a number of organic

15 fruit spreads. I mean we make an organic jam

16 that has to be labeled "made with organic" 

17 because of the amidated pectin. Are there any

18 things on the horizon to replace that?

19 MS. JURLINA: So if I look at the

20 differences between an LMA pectin and an LMC

21 pectin, an LMA pectin gives you a relatively firm 

22 and cuttable texture very similar to a high ester
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1 pectin in a high solid system. The low methoxyl

2 conventional pectins tend to have a softer

3 structure and a more spoonable type of texture

4 that they create. That's just inherent to the

5 properties of the basic pectin.

6 We've made strides in improving the 

7 LMC pectins and we actually have a new family of

8 LMC pectins that does take the organic processor

9 closer to an LMA pectin but I don't see the

10 industry duplicating the properties of an LMA

11 pectin without amidation.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Harriet, and

13 then we'll have to stop there.

14 MS. BEHAR: So I make pectin at home,

15 and I use the low methoxyl pectin, and I just add

16 in some more calcium, and that seems to give it a

17 very firm texture but --

18 MS. JURLINA: Right.

19 MS. BEHAR: -- so I don't know why

20 other people couldn't do that but the main

21 question I want to --

22 MS. JURLINA: The industry does do
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1 that.

2 MS. BEHAR: Oh, they do add in extra

3 to have that stiffer?

4 MS. JURLINA: Yes.

5 MS. BEHAR: I don't know anybody

6 that's gotten my jam in the audience but -- where

7 is most of the pectin in the -- you know, that

8 you're using, currently made? Is it made

9 domestically? I'm just trying to figure out --

10 MS. JURLINA: Okay.

11 MS. BEHAR: -- because you're saying

12 that it's kind of an infrastructure issue, so I'm

13 trying to figure out --

14 MS. JURLINA: Okay. All right.

15 MS. BEHAR: -- why that's a problem.

16 MS. JURLINA: So if you want to start

17 all the way back to where the peel comes from, a

18 lot of the peel -- well, you have to have both

19 parts, so the peel is produced in Latin America. 

20 We have some peel coming from small pockets of

21 Europe. There's peel coming from areas in China. 

22 The pectin is currently produced in
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1 Europe. There's plants in Mexico. There's

2 plants in Brazil. We're starting to see

3 producers in China making pectin. So it's a very 

4 diverse industry in the locations. There are no

5 domestic producers of pectin --

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

7 MS. JURLINA: -- or pectin plants.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much. Up

9 next we have Lee Frankel, followed by Emily

10 Lyons. Lee, you can start with your name and

11 affiliation.

12 MR. FRANKEL: Sure, thank you. My

13 name is Lee Frankel, and I'm here on behalf of

14 the members of the Coalition for Sustainable

15 Organics.

16 First of all, thank you for your time

17 that you devote to help maintain and strengthen

18 the organic brand and the organic program. I

19 really appreciate your dedication. Nonetheless,

20 the CSO does not support the four proposals of

21 the Crop Subcommittee. I carefully read the

22 justifications given by the Crop Subcommittee for
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1 the need for the prescribed 50/20 formula to

2 create the dividing line between accepted and

3 prohibited organic production methods. I found

4 the essential stated reason for the 50/20 formula

5 was to create the most soil-like biology possible

6 in a container to meet the minimum expectations

7 of the Crop Subcommittee.

8 The Crop Subcommittee specifically

9 references Dr. Martine Dorais as the expert on

10 appropriate levels of biology in container

11 systems. So I called her to understand her work. 

12 She has recently completed and collected data on

13 tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers grown in organic

14 soil and organic production systems. And her

15 data is showing higher levels of biological

16 activity and diversity in organic container

17 production systems relative to organic soil

18 systems.

19 In short, the assertion that biology

20 is less active and less diverse in containers is

21 not backed up by the evidence. Furthermore,

22 organic fertility products come from animal and
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1 plant sources so growers and containers are in

2 fact cycling nutrients from their previous cycle

3 of food production into a new crop.

4 If you believe that there are products

5 that do not require the active organic biology

6 that we expect, then please address them to the

7 National List process rather than arbitrary

8 restrictions on whether growers can use their

9 irrigation systems to aid in the feeding of the

10 organism living in the root zone of their crops. 

11 I also do not envy the members of the

12 NOSB as you took on the tough task to allow some

13 container systems while minimizing the appearance

14 of picking winners and losers and the appearance

15 of managing the economics of the market through

16 the proposal. However, the proposal does create

17 some head-scratchers. Nursery trees for fruit

18 growers will be in containers for several years

19 but lettuce is not allowed to be outside the soil

20 for just a few weeks.

21 Sprouts are said to be exempt because

22 they're grown only in water but many sprouts are
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1 grown in substrate and even the same sprout

2 themselves.

3 Herbs are exempted but microgreens are

4 not. Basil is okay but kale growing right next

5 to it in the same facility with the same

6 nutrition systems also is not. I guess mushrooms

7 were exempted in the justification but then never

8 mentioned in the proposed regulation. 

9 So while the CSO believes that the

10 USDA's interpretations of the regulations

11 currently are correct and there's no need for

12 additional regulatory action, we can recognize

13 the inconsistencies between auditors. If the

14 NOSB feels like there must be modifications to

15 regulations, then I would encourage the NOSB to

16 review the criteria established by multiple

17 auditors that currently certify production that's

18 not in the outer crust of the earth. Thanks.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Lee. I don't

20 see any questions. Thank you.

21 MR. FRANKEL: Okay, I have a copy of

22 the report as well with the biological study for
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1 your reference.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next is

3 Emily Lyons, followed by Jessica Walden.

4 MS. LYONS: Good morning. My name is

5 Emily Lyons, and I'm here on behalf of the

6 International Dairy Foods Association.

7 IDFA represents the dairy

8 manufacturing and marketing industry and their

9 suppliers, including several organic dairy

10 companies. I appreciate this opportunity to

11 comment today on the sunset review of sodium

12 phosphates.

13 In general, IDFA supports that the

14 Board renew the use of sodium phosphates for use

15 in dairy products. Today my comments are

16 specifically going to focus on how and why sodium

17 phosphates are used in dairy products with

18 specific emphasis on their use in processed

19 cheese.

20 Sodium phosphates are emulsifying

21 salts that are used when there is no alternative

22 that exists and it's essential to the production
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1 of organic processed cheese products and some

2 fluid products, such as heavy creams.

3 Emulsifying salts are used in dairy

4 products to supplement the functional properties

5 of milk proteins by removing calcium ions from

6 the casein micelle, a.k.a. it binds the calcium

7 in the product and then also helps to solulyze 

8 and hydrate proteins. It stabilizes and promotes

9 emulsification. It also assists in controlling

10 pH and helps form the desired structure and form

11 of processed cheese after it's cooled.

12 Emulsifying salts are used in varying

13 amounts and usually contain a combination of

14 salts, such as sodium phosphates and sodium

15 citrates. But that all depends on the type of

16 processed cheese product that is being produced.

17 Specifically, due to sodium

18 phosphate's calcium binding properties, its

19 higher emulsification of fat and stronger

20 dispersion in hydration of milk proteins, it's

21 used especially in the production of spreadable

22 processed cheeses and powdered processed cheese. 
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1 Whereas, sodium citrates are used more commonly

2 to produce sliceable and block-processed cheese

3 products. But again, like I mentioned, these are

4 generally used in combination but can also be

5 used alone depending on the product that you're

6 producing.

7 IDFA's organic dairy companies produce

8 a wide variety of processed cheese products,

9 which are also used in ingredients in other

10 organic foods, and they've also put significant

11 time into finding a suitable organic replacement

12 for sodium phosphates. But at this time, they've

13 been unable to find a suitable replacement for

14 the functional properties of sodium phosphates.

15 Limiting organic processed cheeses to

16 solely using citrates would reduce the

17 flexibility and ability of organic producers to

18 make a wide variety of processed cheese types,

19 which have differing end product characteristics

20 that meet consumer demands for a wider range of

21 organic dairy products.

22 I appreciate the opportunity to have
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1 provided these comments to the Board.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you

3 very much. Up next is Jessica Walden, followed

4 by Marianne Cufone. Sorry, I mispronounced that. 

5 Jessica, name and affiliation please.

6 MS. WALDEN: Jessica Walden from QAI. 

7 Hi guys. Thanks for this opportunity to comment

8 and thanks for all the amazing work that you guys

9 do, hours you put in.

10 QAI is one of the leading providers of

11 organic certification services for organic

12 production and handling operations and products. 

13 We submitted written comments to several

14 proposals that came out of all the subcommittees. 

15 Today my comments will only address the CACS

16 proposal on excluded operations in the supply

17 chain and the Handling Subcommittee's proposal on

18 the reclassification of potassium acid tartrate. 

19 QAI supports the proposal for the

20 excluded operations in the supply chain. We had

21 a minor -- or suggested addition that -- under

22 the recommendations section, that you mimic the
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1 language in the regulation instead of saying an

2 operation is excluded from certification, that

3 you say an operation or portion of an operation

4 is excluded from certification if, dot dot dot.

5 The other question -- my understanding

6 of the proposal is that for non-retail containers

7 that contain retail label product, they can still

8 comply only with 307B, which includes the lot

9 number. Is that right? But if the non-retail

10 label does not have a retail label product inside

11 of it, then it must comply with 303. Is that the

12 right -- okay.

13 Okay, so I believe that, that proposal

14 can be passed at this meeting with just that

15 slight revision and there was also -- we support 

16 also some suggested revisions submitted by OTA.

17 We believe this is a -- the benefits

18 far outweigh the cost in this and we support any 

19 action that will address and mitigate fraudulent

20 activity in the organic industry.

21 Regarding the classification of

22 potassium acid tartrate, we agree with the
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1 subcommittee's proposal to change the

2 classification from nonagricultural synthetic to

3 agricultural nonsynthetic, and we're excited that

4 you are making these determinations based on the

5 guidance that came out of the NOP and the

6 decision trees. The only suggestion we have

7 there is in the -- maybe in the discussion of the

8 recommendation or even in -- when the NOP makes

9 the change, that it's clarified that any

10 potassium acid tartrate that's produced from wine

11 that can make the "made with organic" claim

12 because of the use of sulfites would not

13 constitute an organic potassium acid tartrate,

14 and that's it.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Emily.

16 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you for your

17 comments on eliminating the incentive to convert 

18 native ecosystems, and I noted that you had a

19 proposed motion wording change. I was wondering

20 what your thoughts were on the motion wording

21 change provided by the Wild Farm Alliance.

22 MS. WALDEN: I -- can you tell me what
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1 that is by the Wild Farm Alliance?

2 MS. OAKLEY: I don't have it right in

3 front of me.

4 MS. WALDEN: Okay. I don't have it

5 right in front of me either. Yes, our suggestion

6 was to follow the IFOAM. So if it's similar to

7 the IFOAM terminology, which is really just

8 instead of -- I think, let me just quickly go to

9 what the IFOAM-1 says, is that, "Farming or

10 grazing areas installed on land that has been

11 obtained by clearing of native ecosystem sites in

12 the proceeding 10 years shall not be considered

13 compliant."

14 So it's -- instead of -- the

15 terminology that was there in the proposal was,

16 you know, someone could convert to conventional

17 and then convert to organic. So this just seems

18 to solidify it but if the Wild Farm Alliance has

19 similar terminology, then yes, we would support

20 that.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

22 MS. WALDEN: Thanks.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Marianne,

2 followed by Tracy A. Nazarro. You can start with

3 your name and affiliation.

4 MS. CUFONE: Hi there. My name is

5 Marianne Cufone. I'm the executive director of

6 the Recirculating Farms Coalition, an

7 environmental attorney, and I was on the NOP

8 Hydro Aquaponics Task Force.

9 It's highly unfortunate how the

10 conversation about hydro and aquaponic

11 certification has developed into a name calling,

12 finger pointing, divisive issue. Whether you

13 grow food in the ground, in a raised bed or

14 container, on a trellis in pebbles or other

15 medium, we're all farmers.

16 Many of us try to grow food in the

17 best way we know how for us and our planet. And

18 some of us grow and accord with existing legal

19 organic standards, and for that, if we meet USDA

20 organic standards, we should get a USDA organic

21 label.

22 The label isn't owned by any
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1 particular group of farmers. While we appreciate

2 those who've paved the way for the label, that

3 doesn't make it exclusive. It's a government

4 issued label and that should be available to any

5 farm that meets the legally defined standards.

6 In line with this, I noted that the

7 most common complaint about USDA organic

8 certification for hydroponics and aquaponics is

9 that they don't directly enhance the dirt on the

10 ground. That's not actually true for a lot of

11 these farms, but even if it was, then it is

12 equally inappropriate to allow certification of

13 farms that use the container method of growing,

14 unless hydroponic and aquaponic farms can also

15 earn certification. The soil in these containers

16 does not touch the earth. The container option

17 is no compromise. It's a specific exemption to

18 allow dirt farming in raised beds.

19 That still leaves hydro and aquaponic

20 growers with nothing. Some say organic is just

21 about using dirt itself. This makes no sense. 

22 We have a recommendation from this very Board
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1 pending with USDA to allow organic seafood, which

2 has nothing to do with dirt on the earth. Some

3 people may associate the term USDA organic with

4 soil but most associate it with the cleanest or

5 best method of production. Not all hydroponic

6 and aquaponic farms are the same, just like not

7 all in-ground or container farms are the same.

8 I'm extremely disappointed to hear and

9 read sweeping generalizations about hydro and

10 aquaponic energy use, inputs materials and other

11 matters at this meeting. Much is inaccurate and

12 thus irresponsible. For example, our farm in New

13 Orleans grows entirely outdoors, uses only

14 organic and heirloom seeds, runs almost entirely

15 on solar power, relies mainly on rainwater and

16 recirculates all the water and waste within our

17 farm. We also grow in-ground and in raised beds.

18 We don't refrigerate or ship our products and we

19 reduce fuel usage too. We leave the world a

20 better place and feed people.

21 In our world today, we need more

22 responsible farmers, smarter resource use and
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1 thoughtful production. Excluding hydro and

2 aquaponic farms from organics is neither smart or

3 appropriate. It takes away incentive for new and

4 beginning farmers to be innovated for existing

5 growers to versify their systems and to be smart

6 about all resource use, not just soil.

7 Please don't take away the USDA

8 organic label from farmers who earned it just

9 because they chose to raise food through

10 innovative hydro or aquaponics and let's stop

11 being a hydro farmer, a dirt farmer, a container

12 farmer and just all be farmers who are all

13 eligible for the USDA organic label.

14 I brought a couple of pictures for you

15 folks to look at because everybody's been

16 questioning what these farms look at and I also

17 just want to show you this last picture.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, we'll have to

19 move on. Any questions?

20 MS. CUFONE: Sure.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa.

22 MR. BRADMAN: What do you feel about
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1 labeling, and whether there should be a -- would

2 a compromise on these issues be a label that was

3 organic, hydro-organic, organic hydroponic, or

4 aquaponic, some variation thereof? I'm not

5 talking about the specifics. But --

6 MS. CUFONE: We talked about this on

7 the task force. And there was an interesting

8 consensus actually on both sides of the issue. 

9 Because as you saw that we were very, very split.

10 And the thought was, there could be a

11 different label. But it needs to say USDA

12 organics. So, it could be USDA organic

13 hydroponic, USDA organic aquaponic. But we're

14 all wanting that organic label. Because it's

15 valuable.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much.

17 MS. CUFONE: Yes.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Tracy

19 Nazzaro. And following her is John Bobbe. 

20 Tracy, if you can start with your name and

21 affiliation?

22 MS. NAZZARO: Great. Thank you. I'm
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1 Tracy Nazzaro, with Traders Hill Farm. We are a

2 commercial aquaponics farm in nearby Hilliard,

3 Florida.

4 New and innovative farming technology

5 such as hydroponics and aquaponics offer

6 advantages over traditional farming methods in

7 terms of sustainability and environment

8 preservation.

9 At Traders Hill Farm, we use no

10 pesticides, no herbicides. And our plant

11 nutrients are 100 percent organic. As an added

12 benefit, our production system utilizes less than

13 10 percent water as compared to traditional

14 ground farming.

15 My comments today address concerns

16 regarding the ability for a commercial aquaponics

17 facility to produce safe and clean food. Based

18 on my direct experience at Traders Hill Farm, I

19 will speak to the following.

20 One, the safety of our fertilizer

21 nutrients are created via our aquaponic system. 

22 And two, enterprise-wide food safety protocols
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1 that ensure the safety and quality of our

2 produce.

3 First I would like to dispel a glaring

4 misconception that commercial aquaponics

5 applications are fertilizer that is our plants' -

6 - nutrient source for our plants is not fish

7 waste. It is not fish waste.

8 The fertilizer used in our production

9 facility is nitrogen in the form of nitrates. 

10 The fish effluent is accrued product in our

11 system that is converted to a nutrient source for

12 our plants. And the process is quite

13 straightforward.

14 Animal proteins, our fish, are housed

15 in a completely separate and fully enclosed

16 facility adjacent to our greenhouse. The fish

17 effluent leaves the fish tanks and flows through

18 multiple tanks that aid in filtration,

19 sedimentation, and then a biological refining

20 chemical conversion.

21 The filtered water is then

22 biologically refined through the process of
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1 nitrification. The same species of nitrifying

2 bacteria found in ground farming and soil

3 environments convert ammonia to nitrites then

4 nitrates, the ultimate fertilizer for our plants.

5 Second, our food safety measures

6 extend from our processes to our production floor

7 and beyond. Our facility has extremely strict

8 procedures for hygiene, and a multitude of food

9 safety parameters in place to help minimize risk

10 of contamination.

11 We have fully embraced the Food Safety

12 Modernization Act of 2011, and maintain a Safe

13 Quality Food Level 3 Safety Certification. We

14 were the first aquaponics facility, and we

15 believe the only aquaponics facility to achieve

16 this level of food safety.

17 This level of certification requires

18 annual third party inspection, comprehensive

19 documentation of all processes, procedures, and

20 maintenance, as well as traceability of product

21 all the way from seed to customer.

22 Every Traders Hill Farm team member
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1 takes the Safe Serve Food Handling course on

2 their first day of employment. And we are proud

3 to have nine HACCP certified individuals on

4 staff.

5 Commercial hydroponics and aquaponics

6 farming methods are responsible. And that should

7 absolutely be allowed to pursue the USDA organic

8 designation.

9 We and our fellow farmers are up to

10 the challenge of meeting the stringent organic

11 certification criteria, and should be afforded

12 the opportunity to do so. Thank you.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Ashley.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: Are you currently

15 certified organic?

16 MS. NAZZARO: We are not currently

17 certified organic. Although we have put together

18 a task force, because that is one of our goals. 

19 We're a young company, started in the end of

20 2013. So, it is on our list of action items. 

21 Thank you.

22 MR. BRADMAN: Just the same question
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1 I've asked many people. How do you feel about

2 labeling?

3 MS. NAZZARO: So --

4 MR. BRADMAN: And would you accept an

5 aquaponic label?

6 MS. NAZZARO: So, we are very proud to

7 produce, to be aquaponic farmers. And we already

8 include that on all our packaging. And we would

9 continue to be amenable to do that. We would

10 like the USD organic label. And we would do a

11 sub note that we are -- that the produce was

12 grown aquaponically. Absolutely.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Dave.

14 MR. MORTENSEN: Just curious. What

15 would happen if you didn't have the organic

16 label, and you were to say naturally grown

17 hydroponic?

18 MS. NAZZARO: We would continue to

19 produce in the exact same way that we are

20 producing right now, in our very safe, clean,

21 healthy manner.

22 MR. MORTENSEN: Okay. So, it wouldn't
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1 put you out of business?

2 MS. NAZZARO: It would not.

3 MR. MORTENSEN: Okay. Thanks.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much.

5 MS. NAZZARO: Thank you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is John Bobbe,

7 followed by Andy Hudson.

8 MR. BOBBE: I'm John Bobbe. I'm the

9 Executive Director of the Organic Farmers' Agency

10 for Relationship Marketing.

11 USDA classified us in an article that

12 we are the largest marketer of farmer-owned and

13 controlled grain in the United States, with our

14 member cooperatives in 19 states from Montana to

15 Texas and Louisiana, and through Ohio, Tennessee,

16 and Kentucky. Our farms range in size from 100

17 to over 7,000 acres.

18 I want to address the issue of organic

19 fraud. Based on my experience of having been

20 traveling to the Ukraine to participate in the

21 Organic Integrity Project, and also for 17 years

22 in the Black Sea region.
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1 We wrote a letter to the Inspector

2 General of the USDA asking them to look at not

3 only what they were originally going to look at,

4 just European relations with the NOP, but non5 European countries.

6 And we re-wrote that letter after the

7 Washington Post report uncovering the fraud. And

8 it said in that report that AMS was unable to

9 provide reasonable assurance that the NOP

10 required documents were reviewed at the U.S.

11 ports of entry.

12 Now, we had dinner with a gentleman by

13 the name of Peter Whoriskey from the Washington

14 Post, that started the conversation. And I had

15 several conversations with him until his article

16 came out.

17 And OFARM has uncovered by itself four

18 separate ship loads, not containers, ship loads

19 of 450 to 500,000 bushels of grain. Two of those

20 have been shown to be total fraud. Three of the

21 ships in the Whoriskey article were also all

22 fraud.
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1 The most recent one that was suggested

2 yesterday, we stopped the ship. Do you know how

3 the NOP stopped the ship? Because our contacts

4 in the U.K. told OFARM the ship was coming. And

5 Miles McEvoy personally told me they had no clue.

6 And we turned it over. And it was

7 actually APHIS that stopped the shipment. Or

8 there would have been another corrupt shipment of

9 grain coming into Bellingham, Washington.

10 There is not one country in the Black

11 Sea region that can come up with one shipload of

12 certified organic grain. And that includes

13 Turkey, that does not produce one bushel of

14 soybeans or corn certified organic. And they are

15 the biggest exporter.

16 We're talking about complete fraud

17 here. And a failure. I've made some

18 recommendations that I made to the conference in

19 Odessa about what should happen. We agree with

20 many of them that were presented here yesterday.

21 And among them technologies to model. 

22 And also that we need to coordinate with the
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1 European Union on their fraud initiatives. Thank

2 you.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, John. 

4 Questions for John? Dave.

5 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes. The Panel

6 discussion yesterday morning really, from my

7 point of view, centered solely on software for

8 tracking, which obviously is very important.

9 And it's also pretty obvious that

10 that's going to take time for that to be

11 developed. What other things in the short term

12 should we be thinking about as a board?

13 MR. BOBBE: One would be international

14 maritime laws. And that is a simple request:

15 what's the cargo insured for? There's only one

16 insurer in the world. And no insurer in their

17 right mind is going to insure a conventional load

18 of grain at twice the price.

19 International maritime law, as I

20 understand it, also allows for seizure of

21 shipments that do not reflect what's on the ship

22 manifest. And that's exactly what was on the
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1 manifest of the ship that Peter Whoriskey found

2 the documents, the blatant documents that were

3 altered on the way over here.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

5 MR. MORTENSEN: Thank you.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

7 MS. BEHAR: Hi, John. Do you think

8 there's a way that we can work with the buyers

9 here in the United States to provide actually a

10 premium to the domestic producers? Because not

11 only was there fraud, and our producers lost

12 markets, but they -- it also drove down the

13 price.

14 But I know that some buyers are

15 looking for domestically produced. So, I'm

16 wondering how we might be able to enhance that

17 marketplace for domestic.

18 MR. BOBBE: Well, we, in our OFARM

19 cooperative network, are discussing that. 

20 Because we do not deal in imported grain. We

21 deal with 100 percent organic U.S. grown. And

22 our producers are proud of that.
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1 What's fallen down is on the NOP, and

2 their attempts. Six months ago, before the NOP

3 meeting in Denver, there was an NOP employee

4 telling one of our people, there's no problem

5 here. There's no reason for you to go to the

6 NOSB meeting.

7 And then three weeks later, the

8 Whoriskey article blows up in their face. So,

9 yes, there has to be. We've been having

10 discussions with our marketers, or have been on a

11 day to day basis.

12 Consumers should be concerned, because

13 this is massive fraud on the consumer end. We've

14 had some inquiries about it. But this is going

15 to be a long, slow process to change that around.

16 The damages to our producers run in

17 the hundreds of millions of dollars. The biggest

18 catastrophe in the history of organic in the U.S.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Sue.

20 MS. BAIRD: Hi, John. I have heard

21 from some feed mills that without imports of

22 grains, there will not be enough supply of
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1 organic grain. Can you address that, John?

2 MR. BOBBE: Yes. Now, let me make

3 perfectly clear, we and OFARM are not opposed to

4 imports. We are opposed to the rampant fraud

5 that is blowing the prices down by one-third.

6 And, yes, we import about 70 percent

7 of our soybeans, and about 40 percent of our

8 corn. And the question for us as producers and

9 organizations, but everyone, is: how do we get

10 the industry to focus on, instead of relegating

11 U.S. producers to being a residual --

12 Here's what the buyers tell us. You

13 can bring your grain in, but we're bought out for

14 three months, full of imports. You can bring it

15 in, but fire sale it to us.

16 And what they're using is higher

17 priced imports to beat down the domestic price. 

18 And the word from more than one buyer, as long as

19 the piece of paper has the word "organic" on it,

20 they accept it.

21 And the other question is, there's

22 some certifiers here that got their hands dirty
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1 on this one too, collecting a lot of money

2 certifiying imports that were fraud. Because

3 they can't trace the shipments off the back end

4 of the ship.

5 Our farmers are entitled to the same

6 fair treatment as the farmers in the other

7 countries. A yearly inspection, an organic

8 service plan, how that field was done, tracking

9 from field all the way through.

10 And my guess is that the NOP or any of

11 these certifiers couldn't track one single ship

12 load back to where that was on equal treatment.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Briefly.

14 MS. BAIRD: What would you suggest

15 that we implement for a traceability tracking

16 system from these foreign countries?

17 MR. BOBBE: Well, I think first of

18 all, what the European Union has done, and that's

19 a part of our recommendation here. That was a

20 part of the memo, the guidance memo that we have

21 been hammering on Miles McEvoy for about six

22 months to do.
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1 The other thing is, high risk

2 countries, like the Europeans do. That if it's

3 coming in -- right now, the NOP can't locate

4 ships. They don't know where they're coming

5 from. They don't have a clue. That's what Miles

6 told me.

7 We need to have a system. Somebody in

8 the U.S. Government is tracking those ships. How

9 does that information get shared with the NOP? 

10 How do we have the appropriate people to follow

11 through on the Inspector General's report that

12 they're at the ports?

13 A bunch of farmers have got to get a

14 message from England, and feed it to the NOP. So

15 we have people meeting the ship in Bellingham,

16 Washington. That doesn't speak very highly.

17 We've got business to do running the

18 combines this time of the year, instead of

19 worrying about fraudulent shipments of grain. 

20 And we need to follow what the Europeans are

21 doing very closely.

22 In my comments is what they're doing
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1 about their electronic tracking system. I do

2 agree with the blockchain system. However, there

3 are some other systems out there. It's being

4 used extensively in Italy. But there are other

5 countries in Europe that are looking at others.

6 And once the electronic certificates

7 are in place that would allow, like in Europe,

8 that before that ship is even loaded those

9 documents are on the way to the NOP and the

10 certifiers that this is going to happen. And if

11 it doesn't meet the initial screening criteria,

12 it doesn't go to the EU.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley, and we'll end it

14 there.

15 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you for your

16 comments. Part of the Farm Bill, there was the

17 Organic Farmer and Consumer Protection Act

18 introduced. Do you think that that will help lay

19 some of the groundwork for solving this problem?

20 MR. BOBBE: It could. I have not

21 looked specifically at it. There's another one,

22 the Fazio bill that may. What we need is
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1 certification of buyers, traders, importers.

2 There's one company that's a common

3 thread through all these ships, almost all of

4 them that we can verify. They're not certified. 

5 We know that. And so, they're running through

6 the cracks. They're not even on the NOSB or the

7 certifiers' radar screen to do this.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Thank you,

9 John.

10 MR. BOBBE: Thank you. And we

11 appreciate, I learned a lot from the Panel

12 yesterday about how this might work. And I'm

13 sure our farmers are going to have some ideas and

14 suggestions for --

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

16 MR. BOBBE: -- members of the NOSB.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, John. I

18 encourage your farmers and members to utilize the

19 open docket to get that to us. And you have my

20 contact information as well.

21 MR. BOBBE: Thank you.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Andy Hudson,
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1 followed by Christopher Pierce. Andy, if you can

2 start with your name and affiliation?

3 MR. HUDSON: Good morning. My name is

4 Andy Hudson. And I'm the Director of Quality

5 Control, and Senior Research Scientist at

6 Westbridge Agricultural Products.

7 And we are here, I'm just here to talk

8 a few minutes about the sunset review of soap

9 based herbicides in non-production agriculture.

10 To be clear, Westbridge does support

11 the continuation of the current classification,

12 but we would strongly oppose the expansion of

13 these synthetic products into crop growing areas.

14 I submitted a written comment on this

15 issue in late October, and on behalf of

16 Westbridge. And this oral comment is to

17 recapitulate and expand on the two main points on

18 that submission.

19 My first point was and is that salts

20 and fatty acids are synthetic materials as

21 defined by the NOSB. In addition, herbicidal

22 soaps should not be considered analogous to
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1 insecticidal soaps.

2 Insecticidal soaps are potassium soaps

3 of naturally occurring, even-numbered fatty

4 acids. While herbicidal soaps are ammonium soaps

5 of odd-numbered fatty acids, which are not

6 naturally occurring.

7 Okay. The slide that's showing now

8 illustrates a common method. Oh, no. The slide

9 that's showing now shows the differences between

10 the even-numbered fatty acids with a potassium

11 counterion, versus the odd-numbered fatty acids

12 with an ammonium counterion.

13 The slide that's showing now

14 illustrates the common method for the

15 manufacturer of herbicidal soaps. The general

16 process involves oxidizing a long chain fatty

17 acids, and under the proper conditions and with

18 the proper catalyst, will result in several small

19 chain fatty acids as products.

20 Nonanoic acid is one of these derived

21 small chain fatty acids. In addition, the

22 synthetic ammonium cadiron used in the
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1 manufacture of these herbicidal soaps is a non

2 organic form of nitrogen that is being applied to

3 organic soils. And I don't think that that

4 should be disregarded.

5 The second point in my written comment

6 discussed a viable organic alternative for weed

7 control in crop growing areas that was not

8 mentioned in the other comments submitted. They

9 did mention the flaming and the hand weeding,

10 which are both very intensive in labor, and very

11 expensive.

12 But there is an organically approved

13 material for application in organic crop growing

14 areas. Suppress is a contact, post-emergence

15 herbicide with activity against dicots, monocots,

16 and sedges.

17 Crop plant back can be performed as

18 soon as one day after application. And it has a

19 zero day pre-harvest.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much. 

21 Emily.

22 MS. OAKLEY: Do you have any concerns
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1 about the current annotation that allows for

2 insecticidal soap use in ditches, since there is

3 a known toxicity, both moderate and high

4 depending upon the organism of aquatic species?

5 MR. HUDSON: What was the last part of

6 that?

7 MS. OAKLEY: There's -- sorry. 

8 There's a known toxicity for aquatic animals with

9 this product. So, do you have any concerns about

10 its use in ditches where there may be --

11 MR. HUDSON: Well they --

12 MS. OAKLEY: -- standing water and --

13 MR. HUDSON: They will then say to

14 avoid any situation in which it would hit surface

15 waters, or contamination of waters. And the

16 label very explicitly states that it needs to be

17 shielded sprayers.

18 It is non specific. So, the label

19 does call that out. And we have recently

20 received some data that the, it does have -- it

21 doesn't have any impact on like honey bees, and

22 so forth at field use rate.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much.

2 MR. HUDSON: Okay.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Christopher

4 Pierce, followed by Keith Kandt. Christopher, if

5 you could start with your name and affiliation?

6 MR. PIERCE: Good morning. My name is

7 Chris Pierce. I am the President of Heritage

8 Poultry Management Services. We're located in

9 Annville, Pennsylvania.

10 Heritage provides management services

11 for over 50 small family organic pullet and egg

12 farms in Pennsylvania. And we're currently now

13 celebrating our 20th year of certification of

14 organics.

15 And I've shared with this Board many

16 times over the years on a variety of topics at

17 previous NOSB meetings that included various

18 topics on poultry discussion. I believe the

19 opportunity for public comment to this board is

20 crucial to the success of the program.

21 I want to thank each of the current

22 board members for your time, your energy, your
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1 commitment to uphold the integrity of the NOP

2 program through the, which is a critical part of

3 the USDA process.

4 The diversity of this board coming

5 together to discuss and come to a unified

6 decision point with high and low profile topics

7 is honored and appreciated by me.

8 I also value the opportunity to be

9 here today to represent our small pool of organic

10 farmers. Because they're busy caring for the

11 birds and running their farms. And it's hard for

12 them to travel like it is for me.

13 So, a couple of things I want to talk

14 about is the petition to add the elemental sulfur

15 to the National List for use for livestock

16 production, as a livestock parasiticide.

17 As organic egg farmers we partner

18 with, we've implemented the practices already

19 that comply with the OLPP, Organic Livestock and

20 Poultry Practice Rule that this body was very

21 instrumental in moving forward.

22 So, for us that are genuine organic
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1 farmers that have birds out on pasture, we have a

2 higher risk factor now than we ever have been. 

3 And we're looking for those tools in our toolbox

4 that can help us deal with the exposure that we

5 face when have the parasites like mites, and

6 fleas, and ticks.

7 And with the time that they're

8 spending out in pasture in the various areas of

9 the country that is really critical. So, our

10 toolbox has some tools that are missing.

11 And I know that the Livestock

12 Subcommittee has voted in favor, I understand, of

13 adding this to the National List. And I just

14 want to support that we believe that is a good

15 tool to add.

16 I also want to discuss the continued

17 listing and allowance of chlorine materials to

18 the National List. Our farms are on something

19 called the Pennsylvania Egg Quality Assurance

20 Program, which is the highest risk reduction for

21 salmonella in the country. It's much higher than

22 our FDA program has.
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1 And a big part of that is sanitation. 

2 It's practices that we follow on the farm between

3 flocks. We clean out. We disinfect. And we

4 want to produce good, safe food. And we want to

5 have the tools to be able to do that. So, I want

6 to support that, the Subcommittee's continuation

7 of listing that on the National List.

8 Lastly, I'd like to ask Dr. Tucker and

9 all of USDA to proceed with the implementation of

10 the OLPP rule effective November 14th, 2017, the

11 month we're in right now, without any further

12 delay.

13 A significant amount of organic

14 poultry farmers had already made the updates to

15 their operations to meet these standards, which

16 would be expected to be implemented on March the

17 20th.

18 But the rule had gone through the

19 various processes of federal rulemaking, had tens

20 of thousands of comments in support of this

21 rulemaking, and it was approved.

22 So, the future of integrity of
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1 consumer confidence in the organic seal is

2 dependent upon this rule being implemented as

3 written. Thank you.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Any

5 questions? Ashley.

6 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Chris, for

7 your comment. On the sulfur issue, I know it's

8 pretty rare for a flock to get mites. But if you

9 have -- I want to know if you've had experience

10 with flocks in the past mites in organics.

11 MR. PIERCE: Yes.

12 MS. SWAFFAR: And what you've done,

13 and if it was effective.

14 MR. PIERCE: It's a challenge. So,

15 sulfur can be a feed ingredient. So, it's okay

16 for the bird to have it as a feed ingredient. 

17 But it's not -- I believe so.

18 But like diatomaceous earth, there's

19 not a lot of tools out there. And I'll be honest

20 with you. In the last couple of years now, as we

21 have transitioned into pasture, this has been an

22 evolution.
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1 There are times that we're dealing

2 with challenges. We're dealing with mites. And

3 we don't want the organic birds -- And we also

4 don't want them to suffer. So, there's more of

5 an exposure in different regions of the country.

6 There is something call the northern

7 fowl mite. It is a relative of the deadly red

8 mite that the European poultry industry is in

9 total chaos right now.

10 There's something called Fipronil. I

11 won't talk about it a whole lot right now. But

12 there's an insecticide that has devastated the

13 western European Union's poultry industry. And

14 that was in result to trying to find a tool to

15 deal with this red mite.

16 We do not have red mites. We have

17 northern fowl mites. We're looking for natural

18 remedies. We're not asking for insecticides

19 like, we're trying to do things right.

20 So, we do not have tools right now to

21 deal with this problem. So, there's not an

22 alternative. Oh, just use Coca-Cola on them. 
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1 Like, there's nothing crazy out there that would

2 -- And that probably wouldn't be allowed either. 

3 But there's nothing crazy right now.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: There's phosphoric acid

5 in there. Any other? Thank you very much.

6 MR. PIERCE: Thank you. Thank you,

7 Board.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Keith Kandt,

9 followed by Marty Mesh.

10 MR. KANDT: Thank you. My name is

11 Keith Kandt, representing Nature Sweet Tomatoes. 

12 And I'd like to speak on the issue of hydroponic

13 growing.

14 So, you've heard all this and that

15 about this biology versus that biology. And I'm

16 going to let a lot of smarter people -- people a

17 lot smarter than me talk about all that.

18 But what I'd like to do is take a step

19 back, and really think about what we're really

20 trying to accomplish here.

21 In 1787, a group of founding fathers

22 gathered to form a new Government. These
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1 individuals agreed on really almost nothing. 

2 They had very different backgrounds, different

3 personalities, different pet issues, very

4 different views.

5 So, that probably sounds pretty

6 familiar to you about now. After a lot of work

7 though the result was the U.S. Constitution. And

8 they did some very, very smart things. And one

9 of the smartest things they did was recognize

10 that they couldn't see the future.

11 They understood they couldn't foresee

12 the issues, and the technologies, and the new

13 learnings that would come along. So, they built

14 into that Constitution a provision for amending

15 and interpreting it, for adapting as new

16 information became available, or as new issues

17 arose.

18 You have the rare opportunity to stand

19 on their shoulders. Clearly, hydroponic growing

20 wasn't top of mind in the early '90s, as the

21 legislation creating the organic program was

22 born.
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1 But within that law is an insight in

2 the spirit of those founding fathers. And that

3 is that a practice will be permitted unless it is

4 determined that such practice would be

5 inconsistent with the permitted or applicable

6 organic certification program.

7 So, those writers understood they did

8 not have the foresight to know where those

9 advances in growing would go. You have the

10 opportunity 25 plus years later to see the

11 landscape that they couldn't see, and to peek

12 into the future as well.

13 So, please take your encouragement

14 from those founding fathers, and use the gift

15 that they gave us, the gift to change and to

16 grow, no pun intended.

17 Certainly, fiercely protect the spirit

18 and legacy of the organic movement, much of which

19 is represented here in this room. But don't let

20 us get stuck in the mud. Okay, that pun was

21 intended. So --

22 Anyway, please be visionary. The
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1 founding fathers would be disappointed if we

2 aren't willing to revisit and adapt, after they

3 gave us that gift to do so.

4 Hydroponics and soil grown organics

5 have lived side by side for 25 years. And third

6 party research shows that consumers are not

7 concerned about the growing method used. And I

8 can provide that research to you if you don't

9 already have it.

10 So, I ask you to give growers the

11 freedom to pick the growing method that works

12 best for the quality of their soil, the hostility

13 or not of their weather, and their own belief

14 systems. So, thank you very much for your time

15 and your work on this.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Asa, Joelle.

17 MR. BRADMAN: The same question I've

18 asked people on both sides. Are you comfortable

19 with a label that would call out a hydroponic --

20 MR. KANDT: Got you. Yes.

21 MR. BRADMAN: -- container? Yes.

22 MR. KANDT: My recommendation is that
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1 we not do that. And that doesn't come out of a,

2 it's not, it comes out, it doesn't come out of a

3 place of my way or the highway.

4 It comes out of that research that I

5 mentioned a few minutes ago, and the research

6 that I presented to this group about a year ago. 

7 Some of you may remember it. Some of you I'm

8 sure weren't even here.

9 But in that research we asked

10 consumers about how important it was whether the

11 product was grown in the soil, or whether it was

12 hydroponically grown. After we introduced the

13 idea of hydroponics to them we asked them if that

14 made a difference.

15 And overwhelmingly they said, no, it

16 doesn't make any difference. Read my lips. The

17 part I'm worried about is: no chemicals in my

18 food. Of those that did care, more, most of them

19 found hydroponics as either being a positive, or

20 at the very least intriguing. And very few found

21 hydroponics to be a negative when thinking about

22 organic.
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1 So, what I think you have the

2 potential to do is to create confusion where none

3 exists right now. And five years from now we'll

4 be back here trying to figure out what to do with

5 that confusion that now exists.

6 I wouldn't say absolutely I won't do

7 it. But I would recommend you don't.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Joelle.

9 MS. MOSSO: First I'd ask that you do

10 send that research from the survey.

11 MR. KANDT: I would be happy to send

12 that to you, if you --

13 MS. MOSSO: Yes. My second question

14 is in regards to your substrate that you grow in.

15 MR. KANDT: Okay.

16 MS. MOSSO: If you could, you know,

17 elucidate what that is.

18 MR. KANDT: It's coco, coco coir.

19 MS. MOSSO: Solely? It's 100 percent?

20 MR. KANDT: You're talking to the

21 marketing guy. So --

22 MS. MOSSO: Got you.
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1 MR. KANDT: I can't swear to that.

2 MS. MOSSO: Okay.

3 MR. KANDT: I can get an answer for

4 you though if you want to get more specific.

5 MS. MOSSO: I appreciate it.

6 MR. KANDT: I'd be happy to supply it.

7 MS. MOSSO: Yes. Thank you.

8 MR. KANDT: Okay. Thanks.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave.

10 MR. MORTENSEN: Keith, what about, so

11 following on Asa's question. What about it not

12 being labeled officially organic, but naturally,

13 sustainably raised produce?

14 MR. KANDT: Something along those

15 lines --

16 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

17 MR. KANDT: -- instead of organic?

18 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

19 MR. KANDT: I think, when I mentioned

20 that there doesn't seem to be a lot of confusion

21 with the organic label, I can't say the same for

22 terms like natural and naturally grown, and all
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1 those sorts of things.

2 Everything I read, and when I do talk

3 to consumers, it is very clear that nobody quite

4 knows what those mean. So, I think that would

5 really be stepping into an area where consumers

6 would just say, you know, I'm throwing up my

7 hands. I don't know what that means.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa, and then we'll stop

9 it there.

10 MR. BRADMAN: Can you describe your

11 practices in terms of how materials are re-used,

12 how they're recycled? Is there any sort of crop

13 rotation, bio-diversity, any information about

14 that, those issues?

15 MR. KANDT: About? I didn't hear the

16 first part of the question.

17 MR. BRADMAN: Well, just related to

18 practices. Is there any re-use of materials,

19 recycling, composting? Is there any linkage to

20 outdoor production? What's your system?

21 MR. KANDT: Okay. Our system is

22 totally indoors. We don't have any outdoor
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1 production. We do recycle. You know, we have a

2 lot of foliage, a lot of leaves and so forth that

3 do get composed.

4 I can't give you the details of that

5 off the top of my head. But I could provide a

6 little more information on that if you'd like. 

7 Let me see, what's a couple of the other pieces

8 of your question? Give me a --

9 MR. BRADMAN: What happens to

10 materials used in the production? And then also,

11 crop rotation? How your facility may or may not

12 contribute to bio-diversity?

13 MR. KANDT: Okay. I think I'd

14 probably be better off giving you an answer to

15 that privately, and giving you better facts.

16 MR. BRADMAN: Thank you. But anything

17 you provide should go --

18 MR. KANDT: Okay.

19 MR. BRADMAN: -- to the whole board.

20 MR. KANDT: Okay. Yes. No. I'm not

21 trying to skirt your question. I just don't want

22 to give you wrong information.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: You can follow-up with

2 Michelle, and she'll get it to the board members. 

3 Thank you for your time.

4 MR. KANDT: Okay.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next we have Marty

6 Mesh, followed by Melinda Mayfield-Davis. Marty,

7 if you could start with your name and

8 affiliation?

9 MR. MESH: Marty Mesh, Florida Organic

10 Growers and Quality Certification Services. And

11 our farm was Bellevue Gardens Organic Farm, that

12 we farmed on a large scale in '76. I started

13 farming organically in '72 -- at the end of '72.

14 So, I've seen a lot of history, and a

15 lot, I've had the pleasure of seeing this sector

16 of the industry grow. QCS has admitted technical

17 comments.

18 So, and if you wanted to ask about

19 free beer tonight, then ask me in the Q&A. 

20 Because I don't want to waste my three minutes. 

21 If you want to ask me about hydroponic history, I

22 can give you some of that as well, and answer
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1 some of the comments that were done before.

2 But one of the comments I want to make

3 sure I get in in my short time is to ask to delay

4 the vote on fatty alcohols.

5 You know, we believe that a lot of

6 growers in the south didn't have time. We know

7 that they couldn't sign up for comments. Because

8 the recommendation came out when the comment

9 period was already filled up. So, they couldn't

10 get here, you know, they couldn't come and be

11 here to tell their story, and to ask for it.

12 So, we would respectfully ask that you

13 give farmers a chance to show up, as well as some

14 other technical people that may have some input

15 on it, but also couldn't get a spot to do it.

16 And then, I think the hydroponic thing

17 is really, this whole meeting has really been

18 difficult for me to hear, and the comments about

19 that.

20 And thank you to Francis. That was

21 the other thing on my list. You've been a

22 wonderful addition to the board. And thank you
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1 for your service. And all the board, as well as

2 the program.

3 I think we underestimate the, we know

4 how much the board works. But the program is

5 there working as well. And so, my thanks to the

6 staff of the program, as well as all the board

7 members.

8 You know, I heard comments about, how

9 did we get into this mess? And I'm happy to give

10 a little bit of history or, you know, where did

11 this come from?

12 I will tell you that in 1996 at that

13 board meeting here in Florida, in Orlando, I was

14 there really to convince the Board not to list

15 Chilean nitrate, you know. I was totally against

16 it as a farmer. Totally against it.

17 You know, it's salt laden fertilizer,

18 not good for earthworms. I had a great public

19 comment there. And then hydroponics was

20 introduced. And I lost the Chilean nitrate vote

21 by one vote on the board. The unanimous I think

22 was referred to later on, on the hydroponics one.
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1 Here's the people that I remember that

2 were on the board. You know, when you talk about

3 all of these, or these big corporate people. Tom

4 Stoneback, Rodale Farms, Rodale Institute. 

5 Donald Kinsman, American Meat Council.

6 Craig Weakley, Muir Glen Farms. 

7 William Friedman, New Mexico Organic Commodity

8 Commission. Michael Sligh was Chair of the board

9 at that point in time. The Board Chair from

10 RAFI. Dean Eppley, Pleasant Home Farm. Gene

11 Kahn, Cascadian Farms. Kay Chamerlain, I think

12 it was, Texas Plant and Soil Lab.

13 So, with that, I can give you those,

14 Kathleen Merrigan's on there, Bob Quinn. You

15 know, it wasn't corporate people that weren't

16 interested in truly seeing the future of organic

17 --

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

19 MR. MESH: -- agriculture or organic

20 growth.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Marty. I

22 will rarely go first, and ask you to talk a
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1 little bit about the history of the hydroponic

2 issue. And then we have Harriet.

3 And if someone tries to steal the beer

4 question, don't do it. I'm also -- I'm reserving

5 that one for the end. Okay. Jesse, Dave, were

6 you also? No. Okay. So, if you could explain a

7 little bit more about the history? That was my

8 question.

9 MR. MESH: Of the free beer? Can I?

10 MR. CHAPMAN: No, no. We'll come to

11 the free beer at the end. Don't worry about that

12 one.

13 MR. MESH: Okay.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: History of the

15 hydroponic debate. Yes. I think you're at the

16 end of --

17 MR. MESH: So yes. Fred Kersherman

18 (phonetic), Mark -- We all know Fred. We all

19 know Michael. I mean, Margaret Wittenberg, Bob

20 Anderson, Walnut Acres. Bob Quinn, Margaret

21 Clark. I mean, those were the people that I

22 remember at the Orlando meeting.
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1 And it was a unanimous vote. They all

2 were in agreement that this is -- And I was

3 floored. I mean, I was a dirt farmer, you know. 

4 That's what our farm did.

5 So, the idea of -- And then, to fast

6 forward a little bit, that was in '96. 

7 Certifiers of course, you know, the languishing

8 of the proposal, the first proposal, this or

9 that.

10 We were responding to a growing

11 industry, a market demand. And so, you know,

12 certifiers started certifying. If the board, you

13 know, our language was, if the board said this is

14 going to happen, then it's going to happen.

15 And if it's taking that long, then

16 let's just get out in front and run with it. 

17 There's not a final regulation yet. That will be

18 included in there.

19 So, CCOF obviously, you know, we

20 certified hydroponic operations back then. But,

21 you know, seaweed, fish emulsion, kelp, the same

22 inputs that some of the other growers are using.
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1 Again, I come from a dirt farm, the

2 same farm background, chicken manure. So, you

3 know, I'm not a proponent of hydroponics. I'm

4 just giving you the history of it.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Harriet.

6 MR. MESH: And by the way, USDA at

7 that point in time was, you know, it was okay,

8 2002, let's grow this industry. Let's grow this

9 industry. And so, they were about growing the

10 industry, not so much about developing standards.

11 MS. BEHAR: So, I have a question

12 about the fatty alcohols. Do your growers want

13 to use it for tobacco, or for other crops?

14 MR. KANDT: You know, and here again,

15 you know, I don't take a position on tobacco. I

16 don't smoke. I'm a anti-smoker. But tobacco is

17 a crop. I could give you a history about okra in

18 the south, the whole okra thing.

19 But they do want to use it on tobacco. 

20 And they're growing certified organic tobacco

21 without any of the chemicals that are put in post

22 harvest in cigarettes, I guess, and whatever
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1 that's, you know. But, yes, that's what it's

2 for. And they're the ones that wanted to come

3 speak.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Jesse.

5 MR. BUIE: You mentioned delay in

6 fatty alcohol. Is Tom here? Is he --

7 PARTICIPANT: I don't know if he's

8 coming. He's gone to the --

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. He's on the

10 speaking list later.

11 MR. BUIE: Okay. Okay.

12 MR. MESH: I just know that we certify

13 some seven tobacco growers. And so, that's what

14 I was speaking on.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. And, Marty,

16 free beer. Tell me more.

17 MR. MESH: So, tonight from whatever -

18 - Michelle may know better than me. I think it's

19 7:00 p.m. It's whenever you end the meeting. 

20 Thirty minutes after you end the meeting. No

21 pressure, Tom.

22 But it's right down the road. You can
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1 walk there, 20 minute walk. It's -- and there's

2 some flyers out front that Michelle and I put on

3 the table. And there's some food, and beer, and

4 stuff like that.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Marty.

6 MR. MESH: And you can take a boat

7 taxi and get out on the river.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Marty. I

9 don't run this meeting. I just herd cats. Up

10 next is Melinda, and after that is Gwendolyn

11 Wyard. Melinda, if you can start with your name

12 and affiliation for the record?

13 MS. MAYFIELD: Hi. Thanks for

14 listening. I am Melinda Mayfield. And I'm a

15 licensed veterinarian, and a WIN certified health

16 professional for animal health.

17 And we have a petition to include

18 hypochlorous. I know it's already included as a

19 surface disinfectant. I get inquiries quite

20 often when I, either from email or our social

21 media, on organic farmers wanting to know if our

22 product is certified organic.
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1 Some of the benefits of hypochlorous

2 over the currently approved therapies, the

3 research behind it. There's multiple studies on

4 hypochlorous that prove its effectiveness and its

5 safety. Many of the organically approved

6 therapies lack the scientific data.

7 Speed of activity, I know honey is one

8 we also compare it to. And the hypochlorous has

9 a 15 second kill time, with a seven log

10 reduction. Where if you look at honey, it often

11 takes up to 24 hours to even receive a six log

12 reduction.

13 The other benefit is versatility. 

14 hypochlorous with our product can be used in the

15 eyes, the ears, and the mouth. It's safe if

16 licked or ingested. It also kills bacteria,

17 funguses, viruses, and yeast. So, it's very

18 versatile.

19 And the availability. Many of the

20 farmers in a rural area have trouble actually

21 obtaining some of the approved therapies. 

22 They're not as in wide use. Whereas,
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1 hypochlorous is widely available, even at a lot

2 of the farm stores and things. Then can acquire

3 it if they need it in an emergency.

4 A brief review is, also hypochlorous

5 can be used in all areas of tissue management and

6 wound management, like infection control,

7 moisture management, edge advancement.

8 Studies prove that hypochlorous does

9 increase fibroblast migration, which will speed

10 up the healing. Many of the organic therapies

11 can leave a residue. Some of them can be

12 sensitizing. And there's really not scientific

13 data to support a lot of those.

14 Like I said, kill time is very good,

15 15 seconds, with even MRSA, pseudomonas, e coli,

16 tricophyton, the ringworm, and even the

17 parvovirus.

18 The National Center for Complementary

19 and Integrative Health, we talked with them. 

20 They're mainly in human health. But like they

21 said, they also said there's just not enough

22 scientific data, even with aloe, to say that they
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1 can definitely say it does help with wounds.

2 We know that there has been some

3 anaphylaxis reaction with chamomile. St. John's

4 wort has been proven to have sensitivity. So,

5 really the scientific data, as a veterinarian I

6 like to have data. And a lot of veterinarians

7 do. So, I think some data behind it definitely

8 encourages more veterinaries to use it.

9 So, here's some of the in vivo studies

10 they've done on hypochlorous. And those are in

11 the packets. I have packets for you all. But

12 you can look at them more in depth.

13 And it shows that the effectiveness

14 against MRSA and biofilm, which biofilm is

15 important now. And just to go back, very

16 widespread, the use of fungus. It is a chlorine. 

17 So, it's more of an electrolyte type solution. 

18 And I know some electrolytes are approved for

19 use.

20 I did talk with Dr. Karreman, who was

21 on this Board previously. And he has used

22 Vetericyn. And we also -- the pinkeye study we
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1 did, if you look at it, one of the things that

2 really was encouraging to me is that it no only

3 cleared up the pinkeye, but it had a 60.8 percent

4 reduction in pain scores on those CADs.

5 And as an animal steward, I think one

6 of the things that's important for us is to

7 reduce pain and suffering in the animals. And

8 the hypochlorous can do that, not only in the

9 pinkeye, but also in wounds and burns.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Questions?

11 MR. BRADMAN: I just have one quick

12 question. I know Albert Straus, from Straus

13 Dairy in Petaluma, a really long esteemed dairy

14 farmer and organic. Have you talked with him at

15 all? And do you have any information about his

16 impressions, beyond just the very short comment

17 he made in the --

18 MS. MAYFIELD: I have talked to his

19 various dairy farmers. And like I said, I've

20 been on the phone with some of them. I talked to

21 one this morning. And they've used some of the

22 protocols. Some of them have good luck with it.
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1 Like I said, my biggest deal, I'm in a

2 very rural area of 3,000 in the community. And

3 so, some of these are very hard for them to get a

4 hold of. They like the idea of having something

5 that's a wide range of use, that's not just for

6 pinkeye, and not just for wounds.

7 And like I said, we've done all the

8 studies. There is no residue in the tissue, no

9 residue in the milk. So, it's very safe. In the

10 environment it just breaks down into basically

11 water and salt.

12 Like I said, there is a little bit of

13 need out there, when I talked to the producers. 

14 And there has been, at all the seminars --

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you very much.

16 MS. MAYFIELD: -- I go to, the Dairy

17 Bill, they ask --

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I'm going to

19 have to cut you off there. Thank you very much

20 though. I'm not seeing any other questions. Up

21 next is Gwendolyn Wyard, followed by Jenny Cruse.

22 MS. WYARD: All right. Well, good
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1 afternoon, NOSB Members, NOP staff, and ladies

2 and gentlemen of the gallery. My name is

3 Gwendolyn Wyard. I'm the Vice President of

4 Regulatory and Technical Affairs for the Organic

5 Trade Association.

6 And I'm estimating that all of you

7 collectively, since the last meeting, have put in

8 approximately 4,260 hours, which breaks down to

9 177.5 days, during which time you produced a 177

10 page packet that you turned over to us to deal

11 with.

12 On our side, in less than 30 days we

13 spent approximately 300 hours of membership

14 engagement, research, and writing, that produced

15 67 pages of comments, and a 44 page resource

16 booklet.

17 And so, now in less than three

18 minutes, I'm going to quickly run down the list

19 of topics that I covered. And in a very

20 abbreviated fashion ask: do you have any

21 questions?

22 So, organic seed proposal. There's
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1 two proposals in the document. And the motion is

2 to accept all additions as described in the

3 proposal.

4 You can separate out the proposal for

5 regulatory change, or the motion for -- proposal

6 for regulatory change for -- from guidance. If

7 you can do that, then we urge you to pass the

8 proposal that would require continuous

9 improvement in sourcing and use of organic seed

10 at this meeting.

11 And then take the proposal on the

12 guidance piece back to subcommittee for

13 additional work. And we've detailed all the

14 reasons in our comments for the additional work

15 that's needed.

16 Excluded operations. We believe that

17 a regulatory change that will limit the types of

18 operations, also known as, traders, brokers, et

19 cetera, that may be excluded from certification,

20 is the most important step that must be taken.

21 But we also strongly support the

22 proposal on guidance, training, and certifier
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1 oversight. And we really look forward to working

2 with you on future actions we know you are yet --

3 that are yet to come.

4 Excluded methods terminology. Based

5 on our best review of definitions we believe that

6 cisgenesis, intergenesis, and agro filtration

7 should all be classified as excluded methods.

8 But our request is that the proposal

9 be revised to actually include definitions for

10 those terms in the proposal, to make sure that

11 we're all talking the same language.

12 Potassium acid tartrate, also known as

13 cream of tartar, yes. Classify as agricultural. 

14 Great move. Way to use the classification of

15 materials guidance that is near and dear to my

16 heart.

17 There are few things in this world

18 that I like more than a perfect meringue. And I

19 do hope that in the near future I'll be able to

20 buy organic cream of tartar.

21 2019 Sunset, based on our survey

22 results we believe that all of those materials
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1 should be re-listed because of the lack of

2 natural or organic alternatives.

3 The one that we're struggling with is

4 konjac flour. I'm having a hard time getting the

5 information that we need on that. One

6 consideration is to go ahead and vote for its

7 removal, knowing that we'll have another

8 opportunity to comment when the proposed rule

9 comes out.

10 And the finally, on seed purity

11 standard. Tough but critical issue. Thank you

12 for keeping it on the agenda. Keep the good work

13 up. Thank you. Any questions?

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Questions? Gwendolyn, I

15 have a question. You talked briefly about

16 konjac, and voting it off, and allowing time for

17 comment later during, for the rulemaking.

18 You also commented a lot on just the

19 amount of work that goes into NOSB

20 recommendations in general that then get

21 forwarded onto the program for potential

22 rulemaking.
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1 You guys were one of the commenters

2 who commented on the three materials of the 2017

3 Sunset that got re-listed by the program. And I

4 was just, you know, I was curious to know your

5 impression of that process. It seemed fairly new

6 this time. And just, you know, get your thoughts

7 on that.

8 MS. WYARD: Okay. So, 2017 Sunset

9 review. We're talking inulin, whey protein

10 concentrate, and Turkish bay leaves?

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Correct.

12 MS. WYARD: Okay. We commented, so

13 during the NOSB process we commented in favor of

14 removing those materials. And that comment was

15 based on the extensive Sunset survey process that

16 we go through, and reaching out to as many

17 members as we possibly can.

18 During the NOSB process I jump up and

19 down. I do everything I possibly can in my

20 position, in my power, to alert industry to the

21 fact that you guys are reviewing these materials,

22 and that people need to weigh in.
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1 There is no way that we are going to

2 be able to reach everyone. It just won't happen. 

3 There are many, many companies out there that are

4 not OTA members. Even reaching all of our OTA

5 members, because everybody has their busy lives.

6 So, we don't reach everyone. We try

7 our best. The comments that we received at that

8 time put us in the position to say, go ahead and

9 remove those materials from the National List.

10 Now, when the proposed rulemaking

11 process happened, we put out another alert. And

12 we said, attention, attention, these materials

13 are going to come off the National List. Are

14 there alternatives?

15 And so, we did hear from members at

16 that time, that those three materials were

17 needed. And so we, I believe that the comments

18 that we submitted, however, were to say just

19 that, that we believed that there may be a need

20 for these materials. And to please look to the

21 comments received from industry on that matter.

22 So, I guess, you know, a couple of
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1 things. And I appreciate you asking this

2 question. Because yesterday I definitely did not

3 appreciate hearing the Organic Trade

4 Association's name brought up in public comment

5 in what I felt was a disparaging manner, putting

6 us on the record saying that the Trade

7 Association's one comment somehow undermined the

8 National Organic Standards process.

9 The process goes all the way to the

10 end of rulemaking. People need to weigh in at

11 both stages. We also petitioned to require

12 natural flavors to be organic during that 2017

13 Sunset period. We also petitioned lignin

14 sulfonate off the National List.

15 As far as I know Organic Trade

16 Association members are the only ones that have

17 ever petitioned anything off the National List. 

18 My mission is to see organic ingredients

19 developed. The National is the entrepreneur's

20 list of opportunity.

21 I will personally petition whey

22 protein, Turkish bay leaves, inulin off the
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1 National List if we find out there's an organic

2 alternative. We've got to take it all the way to

3 the end of the process.

4 And the proposed rulemaking process,

5 as Jenny Tucker clarified yesterday, I think a

6 question that came from Dan Seitz, that yes, it's

7 the full opportunity. And I wish that I would

8 have reached everybody during the NOSB process.

9 So, on konjac flour we heard from one

10 person. And I'm going to wrap up right now. 

11 Those surveys are confidential, so I couldn't get

12 additional information. But I don't feel

13 confident that konjac flour should come off the

14 National List. So, I'd like more time to do

15 outreach. Thank you.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: And we've got Harriet

17 and Francis.

18 MS. BEHAR: So, for inulin there's

19 nothing on the Organic Integrity Database. For

20 Turkish bay leaves, I can't remember if it's

21 three or five operating just, you know, you can

22 search the Organic Integrity Database and find
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1 it.

2 And for whey protein concentrate there

3 is three types. And two of them are available

4 from multiple manufacturers, and from even more

5 brokers that are probably getting it from those

6 manufacturers. But there's one type that's not.

7 So, we're just a little bit struggling

8 not so much with OTA, but somewhat with the NOP,

9 that if something is on their Organic Integrity

10 Database from multiple sources, why was it being

11 declared as not commercially available?

12 MS. WYARD: I think the NOP is the

13 right way to go with that question. Because like

14 I said, our comments said that there are industry

15 members out there that have voiced they still

16 need these materials. And please look to the

17 comments of others.

18 So, in terms of what informs the

19 National Organic Programs process in making those

20 determinations, based on comments, please ask

21 them.

22 I think on the Turkish bay leaves it
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1 was a matter of the type, just as you talked

2 about, and an annotation fix may be, you know,

3 would have been the appropriate route.

4 But again, that definitely is a

5 question that needs to be posed to the program,

6 in terms of what their process is for determining

7 whether or not something should be removed or

8 kept on when they're going through that final

9 stage of the process.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Again, I just want to

11 know, inulin is listed several times in the OID. 

12 There's different types of inulin. And that

13 specificity might not appear. But it's common

14 for inulin to run under several names.

15 MS. BEHAR: Yes. I think it's --

16 MR. CHAPMAN: And inulin itself is on

17 there.

18 MS. BEHAR: -- listed as a chicory, or

19 yes.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes.

21 MS. WYARD: Yes. This one I think was

22 the oligofructose enriched, if my memory serves
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1 me correctly.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. But that can also

3 be legally labeled as just inulin.

4 MS. WYARD: Right.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Francis.

6 MR. THICKE: Gwendolyn, do you think

7 it's fair that OTA can go up to the NOP after the

8 process and do this, and nobody else can? Or do

9 you think we should all start going to OTA, I

10 mean, going to the program after the NOSB

11 process, and lobby them too? Do you think we

12 should all do or --

13 MS. WYARD: We, everybody does get to

14 do that process. This was an open, this was a

15 proposed rule that the National Organic Program

16 put out, and requested comments.

17 And we weighed in through the Federal

18 Register, just as the same as everyone else. And

19 you can go and look at the meeting records --

20 MR. THICKE: Okay.

21 MS. WYARD: And we're completely

22 transparent about any communications we would
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1 have with the program. We didn't lobby the

2 program. We submitted comments to the Federal

3 Register, just as you could, or anybody else in

4 the room could have.

5 MR. THICKE: Okay.

6 MS. WYARD: Thank you. Thank you for

7 that question.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

9 MS. WYARD: Thanks.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Jenny Cruse,

11 followed by Marisol Ovieto. Jenny, if you can

12 start with your name and affiliation?

13 MS. CRUSE: I'm Jenny Cruse,

14 coordinator of the Accredited Certifiers'

15 Association. I'll be addressing the Crops

16 Subcommittee proposal on strengthening the

17 organic seed guidance, NOP 5029. I'll also

18 briefly address the CACS proposal on excluded

19 operations.

20 The ACA agrees on the importance of

21 increased organic seed use in organic seed

22 production systems. And support much of what has
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1 been suggested in the proposal. We ask you to

2 consider four key points as you continue

3 conversation on this topic.

4 One, while the proposal seeks to steer

5 all growers toward use of organic seed

6 exclusively, we are concerned that this will not

7 be possible for all growers in all years.

8 Two, if GMO contamination is cited as

9 a specific reason to allow non organic seed use,

10 a specific contamination threshold would be

11 helpful. The ACA has attempted to develop

12 contamination thresholds that could be

13 consistently applied by certifiers, but at this

14 point has concluded that this needs to come from

15 the NOP.

16 Three, a comprehensive organic seed

17 database established or supported by NOP would

18 greatly assist in sourcing of organic seed, and

19 related verification.

20 NOP's Integrity Database seems like a

21 potential place to start for this, since so much

22 of the information is already supplied to NOP. 
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1 But questions related to timing of search and

2 verification would need to be looked at.

3 Four, the issue of non organic seed

4 use mandated by buyers must be addressed. So,

5 thank you for talking about this. We support the

6 idea of requiring buyers to supply seed search

7 documentation to growers.

8 But submit that handlers should also

9 be held accountable in other ways. Handler SOPs

10 should request a description of seed sourcing

11 practices as applicable. And these practices and

12 related documentation should be verified at

13 inspection.

14 We thank you for considering this

15 topic, look forward to further information on the

16 subject.

17 On the subject of the excluded

18 handlers in the supply chain, an ACA working

19 group is looking at traceability in the supply

20 chain.

21 And a major focus is on uncertified

22 handlers, how we can ensure that the proper
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1 documentation is maintained, and that inspectors

2 are consistently applying the necessary level of

3 scrutiny during the audit.

4 ACAs are in favor of clarifying

5 language around this, and would welcome

6 additional examples of who needs to be certified,

7 and who can be excluded, as the proposal

8 recommends.

9 The Organic Trade Association's

10 comments provide additional examples,

11 specifically around transloading activities at

12 ports that the ACA would be interested in hearing

13 about. Thank you for your work on this topic.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Harriet.

15 MS. BEHAR: On the strengthening the

16 seed guidance, the regulatory change is to

17 include improvement in sourcing and use of

18 organic seed. And there seems to be from public

19 commenters, and even ACA somewhat, that you need

20 more clarification on what that improvement looks

21 like.

22 MS. CRUSE: Well, I guess yes. What
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1 does improvement look like? Is it, you know, the

2 number of seeds that are used, the number of

3 acres that are in production, you know, the

4 amount of seed that's used?

5 I think there's probably some question

6 related to that. But also, kind of to get at a

7 little bit of what Kiki spoke about before. In

8 cases where due to issues beyond the growers'

9 control they're not able to use organic seed, or

10 they're not able to increase in a specific year,

11 you know, what is the allowance for that?

12 So, is increasing seed use assessed

13 annually? Or is it assessed as, you know, a

14 larger trend? I think those are important

15 questions to look at.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. Up next is

17 Marisol Ovieto, followed by Andreas Kuenkel.

18 MS. OVIETO: Hi. My name is Marisol

19 Ovieto. And I'm with the Northwest Hort Council

20 out of Yakima, Washington. The Northwest Hort

21 Council, or NHC, represents growers, packers, and

22 shippers of apples, pears, and cherries, both
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1 conventional and organic, in Idaho, Oregon and

2 Washington, on regulatory issues of international

3 and federal policy.

4 While the NHC submitted written

5 comments on a number of issues before you today I

6 am focusing my oral comments on the need to allow

7 the continued use of chlorine materials in the

8 National Organic Program.

9 Of particular interest to our growers

10 and packers, this list includes calcium

11 hypochlorite, chlorine dioxide, and sodium

12 hypochlorite, materials used in crop and handling

13 that are before the Board for consideration

14 today.

15 In many ways the Pacific Northwest is

16 the epicenter for organic pome fruit and cherry

17 production in the United States. Washington

18 State is the national leader in the production of

19 organic apples, pears, and cherries.

20 Over seven million boxes or organic

21 apples are now harvested from more than 14,000

22 acres, amounting to over 90 percent of the entire
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1 organic apple crop in the U.S. There is also a

2 significant amount of organic pears and cherries

3 planted across the Pacific Northwest.

4 Chlorine based products are a critical

5 tool for the tree fruit industry in the orchard,

6 as well as in the packing house setting. They

7 are vital to reducing the presence of naturally

8 occurring pathogens that pose health hazards for

9 consumers. And are essential for compliance with

10 new requirements for sanitizing tools and

11 equipment that will soon be implemented on all

12 commercial tree fruit growers and packers,

13 through the Food Safety Modernization Act, FSMA.

14 For example, calcium hypochlorite is

15 used both in the orchard and the packing house as

16 an algicide, disinfectant, and sanitizer. It is

17 critical to reducing health human pathogens such

18 as e coli, and listeria monocytogenes. And it is

19 used to sterilize equipment, and used to control

20 fire blight.

21 Sodium hypochlorite and sodium dioxide

22 are also used in both the orchard and packing
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1 house to sanitize irrigation systems, harvest

2 containers, and pruning equipment.

3 It is also used in packing house water

4 dump tanks as a disinfectant to reduce potential

5 for cross contamination. Both are used by nearly

6 100 percent of our organic tree fruit growers in

7 our region.

8 It is noteworthy that peracetic acid

9 is currently the only other widely used sanitizer

10 permissible under the NOP. And reliance on a

11 single sanitizer could lead to resistance by

12 pathogens.

13 On behalf of the growers and packer we

14 represent the NHC strongly supports the continued

15 use of these vital tools for equipment and water

16 sanitation purposes.

17 We ask the Members of the Board to

18 support the continued listing of chlorine

19 products. They are of critical importance to the

20 safe production of organic food, including tree

21 fruit. Thank you.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you for your
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1 comment. Any questions? Thank you.

2 MS. OVIETO: Thank you.

3 MS. SWAFFAR: Up next is Andreas. And

4 on deck is Gerald Robertson. Andreas, please

5 state your name and affiliation for the record.

6 MR. KUENKEL: My name is Andreas

7 Kuenkel. I'm from BASF. And I will report on

8 biodegradable mulch film, and our research to

9 clarify environmental fate.

10 So, biodegradability is our central

11 promise. And therefore, we invest a lot of

12 energy to fundamentally understand the process,

13 how these biodegradable polymers biodegrade in

14 the lab and in the field.

15 Because the underlying process is

16 always the culpability of microbes to metabolize

17 the polymeric material, in this case the

18 biodegradable mulch film, to CO2 biomass, energy,

19 and water.

20 So, they are doing the same. But we

21 will hopefully soon or later do with the

22 polymers. And the question is, where does the
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1 polymer carbon end up? And we have done

2 intensive studies, together with the ETH of

3 Zurich to follow up this fate of polymer.

4 So, what happens with the

5 biodegradable mulch film? At first it's

6 colonized by microbes. Then these microbes

7 excrete enzymes, and biodegrade the polymer to

8 smaller fragments. And these fragments are then

9 metabolized to CO2, and also incorporated into

10 the biomass.

11 And of course the interaction with the

12 soil is important with respect to absorption and

13 desorption. And with the ETH we have developed

14 different methods to evaluate this. And I will

15 show only two.

16 The first is the metabolizing to CO2. 

17 And you can see that within one year 95 percent

18 of the biodegradable mulch film is converted to

19 CO2. And the question is, where is the rest?

20 And the majority of the rest is in the

21 biomass. And for the first time ever this can be

22 shown with this specific method we developed with
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1 ETH. So, we used these 13 labeled carbon, and

2 then can follow-up where this labeled carbon is.

3 First, on the left side on the top you

4 see a biodegradable mulch film colonized by

5 different microorganisms, so with fungi and with

6 bacteria. And on the right part of the picture

7 you see the incorporation of the C searching

8 carbon.

9 And red means that five percent of the

10 carbon is labeled carbon, which means, as you can

11 see in the fungi, there are roughly five percent

12 of labeled carbon. This means this is the rest

13 of the biodegradable mulch film.

14 The next question is, how viable are

15 the microbes which are capable of biodegrading

16 the mulch film? And without going into details

17 here I can see we have isolate 400

18 microorganisms.

19 And you have to make it very simple. 

20 You are much more closer related phylogenetically

21 to the trees outside than a lot of these microbes

22 within each other.
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1 So, with this work we have shown the

2 fate of polymer, where the biodegradable mulch

3 film is going. And this is shown for the first

4 time, the complete mass balance. Thank you.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa.

6 MR. BRADMAN: I just have a question. 

7 Do you have the mass of the material, the film,

8 on a milligram per meter basis, or a, to put it

9 in American terms, pounds per acre? I'm just

10 trying to get a sense of the mass of material.

11 MR. KUENKEL: Yes. So, we are talking

12 in the area, assuming that the mulch film is

13 five, 15 micrometer. So, we are talking here

14 something about 15 to 20 krem per square meter. 

15 And assuming that the relative soil is 20

16 centimeter.

17 So, we are talking here about 0.005 to

18 0.007 percent. So, that's neglectable. And this

19 work shows that there is no polymer fragments

20 accumulated in the soil.

21 MR. BRADMAN: And so, when you take

22 that ratio of the soil you -- Assuming it's 20
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1 centimeters deep, you're assuming the soil is 20

2 centimeters deep?

3 MR. KUENKEL: Yes. That's the

4 relevant --

5 MR. BRADMAN: And you're using 2.6

6 grams per cubic centimeter for the mass of the

7 soil?

8 MR. KUENKEL: The biofilm is put on

9 the soil.

10 MR. BRADMAN: Right. Right.

11 MR. KUENKEL: And this is roughly in a

12 range of 15 to 20 krems per square meter.

13 MR. BRADMAN: Yes. Got it. Okay. 

14 And the ratio that you gave is to the bulk soil

15 weight, not the organic fraction?

16 MR. KUENKEL: Yes. This is then what

17 is in the soil, what is the amount of mulch film

18 in the soil. And this is biodegraded. And we

19 see, for example, in Japan over the last 15 years

20 mulch film is continuously used. And there is no

21 evidence that the biodegradable mulch films, or

22 any fragment, is accumulated there in the soil.
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1 MR. BRADMAN: And what is the

2 percentage of the film that's petroleum based?

3 MR. KUENKEL: So, today the product in

4 the market contain a bio base content of ten to

5 20 percent. So, the majority is petroleum based.

6 MR. BRADMAN: Okay. Thank you.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Briefly. Harriet,

8 briefly.

9 MS. BEHAR: So, we did put out a tech,

10 ask for a technical review. And we got it back. 

11 So, I'm sure you're aware that the National

12 Organic Program has a guidance document that it

13 needed to be 100 percent bio based.

14 And so, for us was the issue of how do

15 we then counter that. Because we know that your

16 product is not 100 percent bio based. And so,

17 there were still quite a few studies out there

18 that are not complete, because it's a fairly new

19 product.

20 A lot of it had to do with soil, you

21 know, how to fix soil life. Does it act like a

22 fertility input? Does it cause one type of soil
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1 microbe to grow more than another, because of

2 which ones are eating whatever?

3 So, we, I mean, we're kind of a little

4 bit in a holding pattern. Because we now have to

5 work and counter what the NOP has said, in that

6 they want it to be 100 percent bio based.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet, briefly.

8 MS. BEHAR: And then just recently bio

9 based material was presented to us as a mulch

10 film that is 100 percent bio based. So, we're

11 still a little bit in a quandary what to do with

12 this material. Just as information.

13 MR. KUENKEL: Can I give a comment to

14 the topic of bio based?

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Very briefly.

16 MR. KUENKEL: I'd say we discussed

17 this topic. And I think, which is absolutely

18 correct, always in an intellectual context, also

19 as a vision. And also with a logic that we say,

20 okay, in nature all polymers are biodegradable

21 and bio based.

22 And they are continuously recycled,
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1 yes. Whereas, the majority of the fossil based

2 is not, yes. But from a perspective of a

3 microbe, yes, the microbe is not emotional. The

4 microbe is only pure scientific driven.

5 And for the microbe in the soil the

6 only question is, is it possible to crack the

7 polymer backbone, and use the carbon for my

8 metabolism?

9 And for the microbe it is not decisive

10 if the carbon is bio based or fossil based. So,

11 all the microbes, they will discuss bio based

12 polyethylene, whereas, they like a fossil based

13 PBAT, yes.

14 And the second comment is, so I'm now

15 more or less 20 years in this business of bio

16 based chemicals, yes. And I have here a picture

17 of the major bio based monomers which are

18 available.

19 And what I want to address here,

20 besides this remark of the microbes is that to

21 develop this processes, yes, at least 15 to 13

22 years have to be put into consideration, yes. So
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1 it's not --

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

3 MR. KUENKEL: -- possible from one day

4 --

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you. I'm going to

6 have to --

7 MR. KUENKEL: -- to another to do

8 that.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm going to have to cut

10 you off there.

11 MR. KUENKEL: Yes.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: But thank you for your

13 comments. Thank you.

14 MR. KUENKEL: Okay.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: We're going to have to

16 move on. Thank you. Gerald, I'm sorry to have

17 you sit in the hot seat, and then put pause on

18 it. But given the questions around the welfare

19 of the Board and the public, we will be breaking

20 for lunch.

21 Gerald, I'm sorry. You'll be the

22 first one after lunch, if that works for you. 
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1 So, we have five commenters left on our list. 

2 And those five, Gerald Robertson, Tom Harding,

3 David Will, Max Goldberg, and John Ashby will be

4 all after lunch. And then we'll proceed into the

5 crops agenda at that time.

6 We are going to break for lunch until

7 2 o'clock. So, it's only one hour. Please be

8 back promptly. I'm looking at the Board Members

9 when I say that.

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

11 went off the record at 1:01 p.m. and resumed at

12 2:03 p.m.)

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, we are going to

14 get started here, if Board Members could take

15 their seats.

16 Up first we have Gerald Robertson,

17 followed by Tom Harding. Gerald, if you could

18 start with your name and affiliation for the

19 record.

20 MR. ROBERTSON: You guys are sure this

21 time, right?

22 MR. CHAPMAN: I am.
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1 MR. ROBERTSON: Okay. Good afternoon. 

2 My name is Gerry Robertson and I am the Director

3 of Supply at Reiter Affiliated Companies based in

4 Oxnard, California. We grow organic and

5 conventional berries throughout the U.S. and

6 Mexico, including an increasing amount of

7 container production in all categories.

8 For the record, Reiter Affiliated

9 Companies does not support the proposed

10 recommendation for hydroponics and container

11 growing. The reasons for this position have

12 already been well-articulated by many of the

13 farmers in our organization through written

14 comments, as well as public testimony at the

15 recent webinars. Rather, I wish to talk about

16 the future.

17 I'm at the far end of a long and very

18 satisfying career in production agriculture, the

19 last 34 years of which have been spent in the

20 Reiter organization. I spend little time looking

21 back, however, but rather prefer to look

22 optimistically ahead to what is coming,
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1 especially in the world of food production.

2 In my job, I am privileged to spend

3 time with many of our young organic farmers, most

4 of whom are in their 20s and 30s and I am

5 constantly impressed and inspired by their drive,

6 their passion, and their commitment to make their

7 world a better place. 

8 In the next 30 to 40 years of their

9 careers, they will see unimaginable changes in

10 the way food is produced and many of those young

11 farmers will be the drivers and implementers of

12 that change. And change we must.

13 In most systems, there is this one

14 truth: that which does not adapt and evolve,

15 eventually dies or disappears. The young farmers

16 of today will, in their lifetime, see the world

17 population reach and exceed nine billion people

18 and will be dealing with the uncertainties of an

19 ever-changing climate. Providing sufficient

20 amounts of healthy organic food to that world

21 will require resources and technologies far

22 beyond the basic soil-based systems that have
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1 mostly sufficed for all of us up until now.

2 Every farmer here, from the small

3 grower in Maine, with a few acres of vegetables,

4 to the large industrial farmer in California with

5 thousands of acres of berries, all face some

6 common challenges. We deal with the weather. We

7 fight ever-increasing costs. We must make the

8 best use of the resources available to us. We

9 need a ready marketplace for our products and we

10 are all going into that same future together.

11 The NOSB today is in the position to

12 help every organic farmer find his or her own

13 best way to meet these challenges now and in the

14 future by defining well thought out standards for

15 production technologies such as containers that

16 expand organic supply, that provide opportunities

17 for the next generation of farmers, and that

18 still adhere to the core principles of organic

19 farming.

20 So take your time and get it right. 

21 The future will thank you.

22 Questions?
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Emily, then Asa.

2 MS. OAKLEY: So one of the few bright

3 spots in U.S. agriculture is the young people who

4 are coming to agriculture as a first career. And

5 the ones that I am most familiar with are those

6 who are going to rural economies and revitalizing

7 them, usually in organic production systems and

8 in the soil. I actually don't know anybody who

9 has become a young farmer in the systems you are

10 describing.

11 So just briefly, I started my farm on

12 leased land on the urban fringe with $20,000 in

13 startup capital. I am curious if the same thing

14 could be done in the productions of some that you

15 are describing with such a limited amount of

16 capital.

17 MR. ROBERTSON: Yes, so our company is

18 made up, primarily, of wholly-owned operations

19 that have farm managers who are employed by the

20 company and they manage the farms. They have

21 come out of Cal Poly or Davis, or different

22 places like that. 
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1 But we also have a part of our company

2 that is partnerships and those partnerships are

3 generally relationships with people like those

4 managers or, in some cases, even the farm workers

5 themselves, who have risen up to a level where

6 they have become really quite proficient.

7 And when people save their money and

8 make a stake or put together a stake to get

9 involved in something, we partner with that. And

10 that might start with a ten-acre operation and

11 some of those partnerships have grown to three or

12 four hundred-acre operations. So that is a very

13 good opportunity within our company. There is a

14 path there for people to become their own farmer

15 or a partner with us.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Asa?

17 MR. BRADMAN: Yes, I have really two

18 questions. The first is how nutrients are cycled

19 and whether container materials, clippings from

20 crops, are they composted, recycled? Do they go

21 back into the containers or the soil in some way?

22 There were some questions earlier
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1 about ground cover and their row crops and things

2 like that or cover crops between the rows.

3 And then my last question would be

4 related to labeling that I am starting to ask

5 everyone. Would they be comfortable with a

6 hydroponic container label or similar -- some

7 similar form of that?

8 MR. ROBERTSON: Yes. Okay, so as I

9 think you have heard from other presenters,

10 virtually all of our crops in containers,

11 certainly in the organic part are perennial

12 crops. We are pruning them every year, a couple

13 times a year, blackberries, raspberries,

14 whatever. So those prunings are going to

15 generally go into the soil, which we keep the

16 middles between our plantings open -- our new

17 practice is that. 

18 And then pots, themselves, when we are

19 done with that material that is in those pots, we

20 compost all of that and then recycle it back into

21 our system. So in several of our areas, we are

22 starting to develop pretty extensive vermiculture 
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1 for this purpose so that we can recycle, not only

2 recycle materials but then use that material,

3 itself, both directly or to make a tea from it. 

4 It becomes part of our nutrition process.

5 With respect to the mulches, when we

6 first were doing this type of agriculture, we

7 were covering everything with those mulches that

8 you may have seen, the black plastic shade cloth. 

9 But gradually, as our techniques are evolving, we

10 are realizing that we are better off to just have

11 the mulch right under the pots and then leave the

12 middles open for a variety of reasons and part of

13 that is to be able to reincorporate the material

14 that we don't want to remove and compost.

15 And then your question about labeling,

16 I'm not sure on that myself. I would be okay

17 with the label, a specific label but I would

18 rather see standards that are clear enough,

19 whether everybody accepts them or not, but are

20 clear enough that you either are organic or you

21 are not. So I fear a little bit of confusion in

22 that but I would be okay with it, personally.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Dave. Then we'll cut it

2 off there. Dave.

3 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, I was wondering

4 could you give us a sense for what the preceding

5 land use was before putting into container

6 production. Were these fields that were

7 agriculturally managed or some other use?

8 MR. ROBERTSON: Okay. So there is a

9 wide variety of answers to that but, in some

10 cases, the fields were previous organically

11 certified fields that became unviable because of

12 contamination of soil pathogens that you can't

13 deal with in organic. In our conventional

14 systems, we would fumigate fields like that.

15 So in some cases, we have fields that

16 can no longer support it in the soil but we can

17 support a container on top of that. 

18 In other cases, it is going to be less

19 favorable soil. So in Ventura County we have a

20 wide range of soils from the perfect sand that

21 you would like to have or sandy loam to really

22 floodplain clay, which is really, really hard for
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1 some of our crops, particularly blueberries. So

2 we will try and find the least suitable -- soils

3 that are the least suitable for soil farming and

4 put our container operations there.

5 MR. MORTENSEN: Thanks.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

7 MR. ROBERTSON: Thanks.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: Up next is Tom Harding

9 followed by David Will.

10 MR. HARDING: Good afternoon. My name

11 is Tom Harding and I represent Green Ag Supply,

12 which is the petitioner for Natural Fatty

13 Alcohols.

14 First of all, I want to say thank you

15 to the NOSB and to the NOP and for all of your

16 hard work. I know you have heard that a lot but

17 you deserve it. I thank you very much for that.

18 As per my earlier request to the NOSB

19 and to the NOP, and with the cooperation of Tom

20 and with my good doctor friend over there, Mr.

21 Thicke, we had made a request that we formally

22 requested the NOSB move the vote on natural fatty
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1 alcohols to the spring 2018 NOSB meeting.

2 Why? Because when we were notified

3 about our petition, that it would be up for a

4 formal vote, that very day we went to get on the

5 public comment list, which was already full and

6 had a waiting list. And everybody was very

7 cooperative. It's just not anyone's fault. 

8 We're not blaming anyone but the circumstances

9 that happened as a result of that is none of our

10 growers will be heard from before this is voted

11 material.

12 Why we requested this because we want

13 our producers to be here. We want you to hear

14 from them firsthand. Many of them are

15 generational farmers who are not only growing

16 tobacco, to be very frank, but also other

17 commercial cash crops that are certified organic,

18 requiring all of the requirements that organic

19 has been. Most of these growers have been

20 certified since the implementation of the rule.

21 So without having our producers here,

22 the extension service, particularly from North
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1 Carolina State and other places, not hearing from

2 them, we thought the best thing versus

3 withdrawal, which we found that under some rule

4 we didn't know about but we do now, that we would

5 withdraw the petition and move it forward the

6 next time but that's not possible because the

7 rule says that, I understand it is an NOSB rule,

8 that if the subcommittee has voted on material

9 that, in fact, it has to go before the whole

10 Board. And Tom gave me that information and I

11 really appreciate it.

12 We didn't know about that or we might

13 have acted differently earlier. 

14 But all of that said and done, it is

15 really important for us that we do have our

16 producers here, that they are able to talk, that

17 you are able to hear from farmers with great

18 experiences and with a lot of the scientific data

19 that we have to support this particular material,

20 that you would be able to ask difficult

21 questions.

22 We have a very good TAP report,
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1 overall, from the standpoint of meeting all of

2 the criteria and, therefore, we felt it was

3 really important to request it be moved. 

4 Our other choices are not very good. 

5 Now, we are prepared to go the whole distance on

6 this material because it is so important, so

7 vitally important to our producers.

8 A couple of points that are really

9 important before I close out and that is, number

10 one, the subcommittee, who did a really good job

11 in this thing -- thank you very much.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Tom. 

13 Questions? Ashley, Jesse, Steve, and

14 Harriet. We will stop it there. Ashley.

15 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Tom. So I

16 understand why you want to take it back because

17 you didn't have farmers sign up for in-person

18 public comment. But why did you not have any

19 farmers submit written public comments or you,

20 yourself submit written public comments? The one

21 you submitted was just reiterating the point that

22 you wanted to bring it back -- you wanted us to
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1 bring it back to subcommittee. We do treat

2 comments equal, as written and/or in-person.

3 So I would like to know why you felt

4 like you --

5 MR. HARDING: Well, at the time that

6 this happened, it was a deadline. We knew that

7 already the public comment list was filled. Most

8 of our farmers were in the field with harvesting.

9 They were not going to be prepared to come unless

10 we really pushed the whole thing hard and most of

11 them pushed back and said look, man we're really

12 busy right now.

13 The other thing is from the scientific

14 standpoint, we have supplied a lot of data

15 already. We felt very strongly -- and your point

16 is a really good one actually -- that it was

17 important that they be before the whole Board and

18 that you hear from them firsthand with not only

19 why are they doing what they are doing but why

20 they need this particular material to do what

21 they are doing and to successfully meet their

22 quality requirements.
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1 The way this product is sold is sold

2 on the basis of quality. And this grossly

3 affects, in a positive way, this material, the

4 quality of the finished product.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Tom.

6 Jesse.

7 MR. BUIE: Tom, in your petition, you

8 requested that the fatty alcohol be used as

9 sucker control on organic crops.

10 MR. HARDING: Correct.

11 MR. BUIE: But the TR only discussed

12 the use of this product on tobacco. Why was

13 that?

14 MR. HARDING: Well, we submitted other

15 crops. We submitted nightshades. We submitted

16 also this product is used a lot for grafting,

17 particularly innovative grafting scheme, and we

18 have it ready to submit for EPA for vegetable

19 crops, particularly nightshades, but we were told

20 that because it wasn't already EPA approved that

21 we couldn't submit those other crop data.

22 The other thing is that we have been
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1 contacted since then with personal care, where

2 there is a number of people interested in natural

3 fatty alcohols to use in personal care.

4 MR. BUIE: Yes, but the EPA has

5 approved it only for --

6 MR. HARDING: At this point, only on

7 tobacco.

8 MR. BUIE: Right, right.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Steve.

10 MR. ELA: I'm just going to reiterate

11 what Ashley said. It puzzles me why -- I mean I

12 get we're all busy but it seems like at a minimum

13 you should have submitted written comments. You

14 don't need to answer again but it puzzles me.

15 MR. HARDING: I am going to answer it

16 again to this point. We felt very strongly, and

17 because of them being very busy, that personally

18 being able to be before this Board to talk, and

19 you hear them -- I'm going to repeat myself -- it

20 was really important to them, really important to

21 the growers because win or lose, this is going to

22 have a huge economic impact downstream on our
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1 farmers and you need to hear that from them and

2 not from me.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet.

4 MS. BEHAR: So, the Crop Subcommittee

5 meets a lot. So I am just going to try and make

6 sure that I have this correct. So I'm going to

7 look at my fellow subcommittee members.

8 We received the petition. It was for

9 all crops. When we got our technical review

10 back, it was for tobacco because we were told

11 that the EPA has only approved it for tobacco.

12 We then went back to you and said

13 would you like to switch this to just tobacco

14 because we can't review something that is not

15 approved by the EPA for other uses. And you said

16 no, we want to come back; you want to keep it at

17 all crops.

18 MR. HARDING: No, I didn't say that. 

19 No, we didn't say that. 

20 We were told that the data we had

21 submitted, which was a file that thick on other

22 crops, because those other crops were not EPA
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1 approved, we couldn't do them. So we just pulled

2 them back and said it is going to stand for

3 tobacco.

4 MS. BEHAR: No, the petition. We

5 asked you about switching what you wanted to be

6 petitioned for.

7 MR. HARDING: Yes.

8 MS. BEHAR: And you decided you wanted

9 to keep it at -- we asked you do you want to

10 switch it to tobacco only or to have it be all

11 crops. Didn't we ask him that?

12 MR. HARDING: I don't ever remember

13 that point. I don't remember that point.

14 MS. BEHAR: Jesse?

15 MR. BUIE: Yes.

16 MR. HARDING: Well, who sent it to us?

17 MR. BUIE: Dr. Brines, probably.

18 MS. BEHAR: Well, I'm just trying to -

19 -

20 MR. HARDING: But anyway, Harriet, the

21 point is --

22 MS. BEHAR: So we were kind of left --
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1 but see we felt like we could not review a

2 petition for all crops.

3 MR. HARDING: Agreed.

4 MS. BEHAR: Because even if you gave

5 us material, because we couldn't get a TR for

6 such a petition because we couldn't get a TR for

7 something that it's not approved for.

8 So there was quite a bit of back and

9 forth with you, the petitioner. I'm just trying

10 to get that straight.

11 MR. HARDING: Let me just say this. I

12 am not familiar with a back and forth. I do know

13 that we were told that we could not submit, and

14 rightfully so, anything that did not have already

15 an EPA approval. So we withdrew those and

16 resubmitted the petition, which then stood for

17 only tobacco.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm going to call on

19 Emily in a second. 

20 First, Dr. Brines, there was a

21 question about whether we had a communication

22 with the petitioner. To your recollection, can
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1 you speak?

2 DR. BRINES: Yes, thank you. I don't

3 have any record of official requests from the

4 Crops Subcommittee to the Petitioner asking

5 specifically to limit the scope of the petition.

6 I will say that when we did review the

7 petition, we only accept petitions for uses that

8 would be allowed for pesticidal uses for EPA.

9 So you know they can ask for whatever

10 listing that they want. The Board can't approve

11 uses that would not comply with the EPA label. 

12 But certainly, if they were to list fatty

13 alcohols, for example, without an annotation,

14 that would only be allowed for uses that are EPA

15 permitted. You couldn't use that on other crops

16 because there are no EPA-labeled uses at this

17 time.

18 MR. HARDING: And that was clear to

19 us.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: So Emily, and then we

21 will cut if off there.

22 MS. OAKLEY: Just a point of
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1 clarification that I think the subcommittee did

2 get information from the NOP that we could only

3 look at tobacco because it was the only approved

4 use and I just want to make it clear that during

5 our deliberations and discussions during

6 subcommittee calls, it was just for tobacco use.

7 And I don't think it affects the outcome of our

8 decision at that time.

9 MR. HARDING: Well, I do hope you will

10 grant us our request. Thank you very much.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Tom.

12 Up next is David Will, followed by Max

13 Goldberg.

14 MR. WILL: Good afternoon. My name is

15 David Will and I am the General Manager of Chino

16 Valley Ranchers, a Southern California egg

17 producer. I am Secretary of the Organic Egg

18 Farmers of America and I am the Chairman of the

19 Methionine Task Force, which is what my comments

20 are on today.

21 It has been a year since we have

22 brought methionine to discuss with you. And one
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1 of our commitments several years to the Board was

2 that any updates or significant strides or

3 information we felt was relevant we would pass to

4 you guys. So this is our 2017 presentation.

5 The Methionine Task Force is a

6 collection of some of the larger organic egg

7 producers in the country. We are also a

8 collection of more than 300 independent family9 owned and operated individual certificate holders

10 and some of the smaller organic pasture-claimed

11 producers within the country and also some of the

12 broilers.

13 We represent about 70 percent of the

14 broiler industry and a large number, more than

15 400 plus certificate holders in the organic egg

16 segment.

17 In 2017 we actually formalized our

18 group so that we could self-tax and form some

19 research and that's what I wanted to talk to you

20 about briefly.

21 We are currently funding a three-year

22 study at the University of California at Davis on
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1 the production and feeding of black soldier fly

2 larvae in organic laying hens. The study is

3 working on the production of the larvae, which is

4 the best medium to raise the larvae. We found

5 that changing what the medium is that they are

6 growing in actually changes their methionine

7 content, what's the best moisture and the best

8 temperature in order to grow the larvae, and then

9 the beauty of this is the byproduct of growing

10 the larvae. We actually are getting a very nice

11 fertilizer of it as well.

12 All of the birds are in four groups. 

13 They are on an outdoor-based system. There are

14 two control groups that were given synthetic

15 methionine at two days of age and then two groups

16 that are fed a black soldier fly larvae at a 20

17 percent inclusion rate and have had zero

18 synthetic methionine since their growth.

19 The next slide, which I hope -- I'm

20 going to hit the wrong button -- this is actually

21 one of four pens that the birds are in. You can

22 see they have rotation available to them. It is
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1 completely based outdoors on a grass basis.

2 And the next slide is the organic feed

3 that they are getting with a 20 percent of black

4 soldier fly larvae.

5 We just wanted to give you some

6 updates on this. Our first major hurdle is that

7 we are not AFFCO approved in the United States

8 for feeding black soldier flies to laying hens or

9 broilers, however, it is approved in Canada. We

10 don't have FDA approval yet and we are feeding at

11 a 20 percent inclusion rate. We are hoping to

12 test it at 15 and 10 percent to see if that works

13 as well. Our other question is are organic

14 insects ever going to exist. 

15 And then our last one is the supply

16 issue. Just a quick number. The USDA says there

17 is 14 million laying hens in the United States,

18 100 hens eat 25 pounds of feed per day. That is

19 say 3.5 million pounds of organic feed per day at

20 a 20 percent inclusion rate, that is 700,000

21 pounds of black soldier fly larvae we would have

22 to produce a day but they are 75 percent
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1 moisture. That would mean we would need 2.8

2 million pounds per day of black soldier fly

3 larvae just for laying hens compared to 3500

4 pounds of methionine.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Ashley?

6 MS. BRIONES: So David I just want to

7 say thank you for the Task Force bringing us an

8 update each year. I think the Board got the --

9 you know the industry received our message of we

10 are wanting an alternative to synthetic

11 methionine and we appreciate your work on looking

12 into that.

13 MR. WILL: We're happy to do it.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Harriet?

15 MS. BEHAR: So a while back I know I

16 looked, there is an ATTRA publication that has

17 various feedstocks that are high in methionine. 

18 And I think nonfat dry milk is quite high in

19 methionine and that is quite readily available as

20 an organic. Is there a problem with it as far as

21 going bad or caking up or --

22 MR. WILL: It's part the balancing of
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1 lysine and methionine.

2 MS. BEHAR: Okay.

3 MR. WILL: You just can't look at one. 

4 You have got to look at the entire spectrum.

5 MS. BEHAR: And so there is not enough

6 lysine in the nonfat dry milk?

7 MR. WILL: We're going to look into

8 that. That is down the list. Our first one was

9 Brazil nuts was our favorite go-to but there is a

10 major selenium problem that we would literally --

11 it would work great but it would kill the

12 chickens. So we had to kind of decide that

13 wasn't going to work.

14 MS. BEHAR: I think that probably

15 doesn't work that great.

16 MR. WILL: A major hurdle.

17 But we are going down the list and we

18 have several things. This was insects was one

19 that became available and quite interesting to

20 us, two-fold, because of the byproduct we get out

21 of the fertilizer and the fact that they are very

22 easy to breed.
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1 MS. BEHAR: And then in your list of

2 things to do, is there possibly two or three

3 items that you would try to pull together? 

4 Because it does seem that it may be the best

5 source but sourcing it might be quite difficult.

6 MR. WILL: Well, actually there is a

7 company down in Irwindale that we are going out

8 to meet with that is actually doing a large-scale

9 project. They have two locations in the U.S. and

10 they are actually doing large-scale black soldier

11 fly. The beauty of this fly is it's not a pest

12 that would bother humans. Once it hatches, it

13 doesn't eat. When it turns from the larvae to

14 the fly state, all it does is have sex and die,

15 kind of like a fruit fly. That's a good thing to

16 do, apparently, but they don't land on food. 

17 They don't eat, they don't contaminate. So we

18 are hoping we have some luck with FDA with that

19 one. And we are not growing them on manure,

20 which was our other major concern of bringing

21 pathogens in.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: If there was some free
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1 beer in that, that sounds like a pretty good life

2 cycle.

3 Sue, and then I have a question. 

4 We'll end it there. Sue.

5 MS. BAIRD: I know there has been some

6 work on genetics of high-lysine corn.

7 MR. WILL: Yes, we funded that study.

8 MS. BAIRD: From Arkansas, yes. How

9 is that working out?

10 MR. WILL: Well, the wild pigs liked

11 it more than anything else. So, they destroyed

12 our seed crop. The problem with it was it had a

13 significantly lower yield and a higher cost to

14 produce. So it was very hard to convince a

15 farmer to work just as hard to grow 30 percent

16 less, where he couldn't get 40 percent more for

17 it.

18 So I know that is still kind of being

19 kicked around out of the Midwest, up in that

20 group there. We have talked to them a couple

21 times but we just didn't see the gain on it. And

22 again, it was the balancing of the lysine and the
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1 methionine, and the cystine. It just wasn't the

2 perfect product for us.

3 And actually, insects look like they

4 may be a little more in line with our balancing. 

5 That's something we can look at too,

6 but they weren't at the top of the list for

7 insect. Actually, number one is dung beetles but

8 the word dung we figured we'd never get by FDA.

9 Yes, good material. You have got to

10 use it.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: One last question. 

12 Where are you in the FDA approval process?

13 MR. WILL: We've talked to them

14 softly. We know that in California we've talked

15 all the people that matter there. We are quite

16 confident that we could get an emergency order to

17 allow us to use it in California as a limited

18 test on a more commercial-sized flock. Our first

19 problem is sourcing. Even if you take that and

20 do 20,000 birds, it is several hundred pounds a

21 day or a week of black soldier fly larvae that

22 have to be freeze dried introduced.
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1 And I will tell you I actually did

2 taste the eggs. Even with the 20 percent

3 inclusion rate, we actually did not have a flavor

4 profile problem. And all the eggs are being used

5 on UC Davis' campus. So hey, it's good for

6 Berkeley.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: So what comes first, the

8 FDA approval or the scale up?

9 MR. WILL: It's both. Honestly, it

10 has to be two-pronged. We have to be able to

11 prove that we can make it and what they are going

12 to grow on to take it to FDA. Their biggest

13 concern is the medium it grows on and what

14 potential contamination can come out of that. 

15 The last thing you want to have is the news that

16 we just released 140 million black soldier fly

17 into the environment because they hatched over

18 the weekend.

19 So, we have to go through that whole

20 thing. And then AFFCO has obviously got to be

21 first. The fact that it's now available in

22 Canada is beneficial to us but, again, that is
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1 only in broilers.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

3 MR. WILL: Vote OLPP, please. We need

4 that. Please.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you.

6 Up next is Max Goldberg and on deck is

7 John Ashby.

8 Max, you can start with your name and

9 affiliation.

10 MR. GOLDBERG: Good afternoon. Max

11 Goldberg from Organic Insider and Living Maxwell.

12 Two things I would like to discuss

13 today. First, in regards to the hydroponics

14 container growing system, I believe the most

15 important question that you all need to ask

16 yourself is whether certifiers can in fact

17 inspect these systems, not what a container

18 growing system is.

19 According to Bart Hall-Beyer, a soil

20 chemist, a professional agronomist who has, over

21 the years, inspected nearly a million acres in

22 seven countries for organic certification, he
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1 says that hydroponics is utterly impossible to

2 inspect for organic certification. It would be

3 completely incompatible with organic

4 certification, absent a full-time on-site

5 observer at each and every site.

6 If inspecting these operations is

7 impossible, then the Board ought to put all these

8 systems together, hydroponics, aeroponics,

9 aquaponics, container-growing systems into one

10 and decide if they all are in violation of OFPA.

11 That is the question that I am asking

12 the NOSB to consider, whether organic certifiers

13 can in fact certify these systems.

14 Second, Next 7's petition against

15 hydroponics is over 100,000. These are some that

16 people have literally hand-signed. These are not

17 clicked with their mouse signing an e-petition. 

18 They have signed these personally and the

19 majority of the 100,000 are in the last 48 hours.

20 The second thing I want to bring up is

21 we are spending so much time on fraudulent

22 organic grains from abroad, which is a massive
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1 problem and starting to be addressed, but I think

2 that the Board needs to pay attention what

3 happened to Aurora, which has been completely

4 swept under the rug. And I ask all the members

5 to demand an answer from the USDA about what

6 happened to Aurora. 

7 We just heard that the case was

8 closed; Washington posted an investigation; the

9 milk was comparable to conventional milk. With

10 aerial photos, satellite photos, there were

11 clearly red flags here and all we hear is that

12 the investigation was closed. We have not gotten

13 an explanation about anything.

14 And I think it is up to all the NOSB

15 members to demand an investigation. And the

16 answer we got yesterday from the NOP here was,

17 frankly, inadequate, insulting, and very damaging

18 to the integrity of the organic brand.

19 Consumers rely on transparency and

20 we're not getting any transparency on organic. 

21 And there are a lot of CEOs who are watching

22 what's taking place at this meeting and they are
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1 going to hear that unless things get clarified

2 about what happened with organic, the lack of

3 transparency is very, very high. And if NOSB

4 members truly care about organic and maintaining

5 the integrity of organic, I urge you to give us

6 transparency about what happened with Aurora

7 because we are worrying about fraud from abroad. 

8 We need to understand what is taking place in our

9 own country.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Max. 

11 Questions for Max?

12 Thank you very much.

13 Up next is John Ashby. You will

14 notice, again, no one is on deck. So, John, you

15 will be closing out public comment today.

16 John, if you can start with your name

17 and affiliation.

18 MR. ASHBY: I'm John Ashby speaking on

19 behalf of the No on Discussion Documents and Yes

20 on Containers, All of Them Committee, which so

21 far is me.

22 The only way James Madison was able to
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1 get enough signatures for the Constitution was to

2 promise to produce the accompanying Bill of

3 Rights immediately after signing the

4 Constitution. 

5 To wit: our belated OFPA Bill of

6 Rights. First Amendment: NOSB shall make no law

7 respecting a disestablishment of organic, or

8 prohibiting the legal regulated exercise thereof,

9 or abridging the freedom of organic speech, or of

10 the press, or the right of the organic community

11 peaceably to assemble and drink free wine from

12 Phil -- ditto to CCOF's comments, by the way --

13 and to petition the NOSB for a redress of

14 grievances.

15 Second Amendment: A well-regulated

16 enforcement being necessary to the security of

17 true organics, the right of the people to keep

18 and bear legal weapons against infractions shall

19 not be infringed. 

20 We only have two minutes, as you are

21 abridging my free speech by only allowing me

22 three minutes.
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1 Regarding no disestablishment of

2 organics, these containers are legally organic. 

3 This is why it will require rulemaking at least

4 to prohibit them. I'm not so sure it might not

5 require an OFPA change.

6 The discussion documents strike me as

7 so contradictory it seems like we are debating

8 how much sand is in the water. It's the

9 dissolved stuff that feeds the plants.

10 And the carve-outs make no sense to me

11 at all. If you want to eliminate any of the

12 containers, then out go ornamentals, mushrooms,

13 herbs, the future, trees, and more by the same

14 logic. I don't see any option to all or nothing.

15 The argument that if you take the

16 nutrients out of the water and hydroponic plants

17 die is you take the nutrients out of the water in

18 in-soil plants and they die. In fact, hydroponic

19 tomatoes could be argued as the most soil20 friendly organic of any. The only outputs are

21 organic tomatoes after massively efficient

22 utilization of resources and organic compost,
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1 which can go on other soil, most often from a

2 warehouse that otherwise would not grow food.

3 Ditto, again, to CCOF arguments and

4 realize that we do not have free speech. Many

5 are intimidated and not speaking out against the

6 loudest. 

7 We need all these containers to remain

8 within the organic fold, period.

9 P.S. Enforcement is a huge problem

10 that has not been sufficiently addressed. I know

11 we are starting on it. We are not even close. 

12 When a Washington Post reporter can figure out

13 all that imported grain was not organic but the

14 certifier providing the document, who

15 theoretically has access to all their paperwork,

16 could not, this is a problem. If you can't do

17 the audit trail, you should not be certifying it.

18 P.S. Natural is a substitute --

19 natural is just a complete and utter disaster. 

20 No one in their right mind would put natural on a

21 product. We'll get sued. And that's funny but

22 it's true.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: That's it?

2 MR. ASHBY: That was my barking dogs.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: You made it before the

4 buzzer.

5 Any questions? Ashley?

6 MS. SWAFFAR: Why didn't we get a good

7 poem or a haiku? I mean I just feel like I'm --

8 the Bill of Rights, I understand.

9 MR. ASHBY: I'm in a grouchy mood

10 about this. This is the future you know. And

11 it's not going to reduce one piece of food coming

12 out of these containers. It's not going to

13 reduce one.

14 But the idea that -- I mean what

15 killed me in reading this that I didn't even

16 mention is that because the percentage is small

17 well, then it's okay to disallow this. That's

18 ridiculous. It either is or isn't. And the

19 carve-outs make no sense whatsoever.

20 And right now it is. And I think what

21 we need to do is keep it within the fold and

22 develop the standards so that it is not
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1 everyone's going to like it and don't be telling

2 people who are not against containers that they

3 are against soil. I am not against soil. I'm

4 working one of the biggest transition programs

5 right now in our company. It's a real pain the

6 neck, very difficult to do. But because somebody

7 is for containers does not mean they are against

8 soil.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, John.

10 MR. ASHBY: Thank you.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: I will revise my last

12 comments to John and say that's it. We are done

13 with public comments. And we will now be moving

14 on to the subcommittee portion of the agenda.

15 First up today is the Crops

16 Subcommittee and I will be handing it over to

17 Francis Thicke, the chair.

18 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Tom.

19 To begin with, we have a number of

20 2019 sunsets to review and we will start out that

21 we will, as Michelle reminded me, first we will

22 have Lisa Brines give us -- the first one up is
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1 chlorine materials, calcium hypochlorite,

2 chlorine dioxide, and sodium hypochlorite. And

3 Lisa is going to give us the details.

4 DR. BRINES: Yes, thank you, Francis.

5 I will read the first three chlorine

6 materials into the record. The Board wanted to

7 take those as a group.

8 So we start the Sunset 2019 Review

9 with Section 205.601 of the National List as

10 synthetic substances allowed for use in organic

11 crop production. And the first three materials

12 are under paragraph (a) as algaecide,

13 disinfectants, and sanitizer, including

14 irrigation system cleaning. Chlorine materials

15 for pre-harvest use, residual chlorine levels in

16 the water in direct contact or as water from

17 cleaning irrigation systems applied to soil must

18 not exceed the maximum residual disinfectant

19 limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act, except

20 that chlorine products may be used in edible

21 sprout production according to EPA label

22 directions.
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1 And the three materials are (i)

2 calcium hypochlorite, (ii) chlorine dioxide; and

3 (iii) sodium hypochlorite. 

4 And the most recent technical report

5 for these materials was completed in 2011.

6 Thanks.

7 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Lisa. This

8 material, I am the lead on, all three of them

9 actually. So what we are going to do is we are

10 going to summarize all three and then we are

11 going to vote individually on them.

12 These chlorine sanitizers are all

13 considered to be very effective sanitizers that

14 are used in crops, in livestock, and in handling

15 but we are only dealing with them in crops right

16 now. However, they can also be harmful to human

17 health and environment. They are caustic and can

18 be a concern for occupational exposure. They can

19 cause eye and skin injury. Ingestion can cause

20 gastrointestinal irritation and corrosive

21 injuries to mouth, throat, esophagus, and

22 stomach.
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1 The comments, a lot of commenters said

2 they need them, they use them for a variety of

3 things, for cleaning tools, for equipment, and

4 workstation cleaning, maintenance of irrigation

5 equipment, and so on. So the comments were

6 overwhelmingly in favor of keeping them on the

7 list.

8 However, we also have comments that

9 have come in saying that we need to review these

10 sanitizers. As we have talked about before,

11 sanitizers in general, and disinfectants, and

12 cleansers, should be a comprehensive review

13 relative to safety, and legal requirements, and

14 so on.

15 And as Harriet mentioned earlier, I

16 think yesterday, we put in a request to the NOP

17 to get that on our work agenda.

18 So, are there any questions on the

19 chlorine products?

20 I guess not. The, Tom, we can go to

21 vote.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. So as a reminder
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1 to the Board, this is a sunset material. Sunset

2 materials come as motions to remove. So a yes

3 vote is a vote to remove. A no vote is a vote to

4 retain on the list or to not recommend removal.

5 So this motion comes from Francis,

6 seconded by Emily from the subcommittee. And we

7 will start the voting with the -- this is for all

8 three at once and I will read the motion in a

9 fraction of a second.

10 The motion is a motion to remove

11 calcium hypochlorite -- I should read all three. 

12 Is that correct? Motion to remove chlorine

13 materials calcium hypochlorite, chlorine dioxide,

14 and sodium hypochlorite.

15 Again, it came from Francis and it was

16 seconded by Emily. And we will start the -- a

17 yes vote is to remove; a no vote is to retain. 

18 And will start the voting with A-Dae.

19 DR. THICKE: Point of order, Tom. 

20 They are three separate.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: They are three separate

22 motions?
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1 DR. THICKE: Yes. Do we want to vote

2 separately? They actually have the same motion

3 made by the same person and the same second.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes, we should handle

5 them three different times, if it came as three

6 separate motions, unfortunately.

7 So we will start with the first one,

8 which is the motion to remove calcium

9 hypochlorite. It came from -- moved by Francis,

10 seconded by Emily. And the voting will start

11 with A-Dae.

12 MS. BRIONES: No.

13 MS. DE LIMA: No.

14 MR. BRADMAN: No.

15 MS. MOSSO: No.

16 MR. ELA: No.

17 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

18 MR. BUIE: No.

19 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

20 DR. SEITZ: No.

21 MR. RICE: No.

22 MS. BAIRD: No.
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1 MS. BEHAR: No.

2 MS. OAKLEY: No.

3 DR. THICKE: No.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: No.

5 Zero yes, 15 no and the motion fails.

6 The second motion is a motion to

7 remove chlorine dioxide. It came from Francis,

8 seconded by Emily. 

9 The voting will start with Lisa. A

10 yes vote is to remove; a no vote is to retain.

11 MS. DE LIMA: No.

12 MR. BRADMAN: No.

13 MS. MOSSO: No.

14 MR. ELA: No.

15 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

16 MR. BUIE: No.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

18 DR. SEITZ: No.

19 MR. RICE: No.

20 MS. BAIRD: No.

21 MS. BEHAR: No.

22 MS. OAKLEY: No.
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1 DR. THICKE: No.

2 MS. BRIONES: No.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

4 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

5 Motion to remove sodium hypochlorite

6 made by Francis, seconded by Emily. 

7 Voting will start with Asa. A yes

8 vote is to remove; a no vote is to retain.

9 MR. BRADMAN: No.

10 MS. MOSSO: No.

11 MR. ELA: No.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

13 MR. BUIE: No.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

15 DR. SEITZ: No.

16 MR. RICE: No.

17 MS. BAIRD: No.

18 MS. BEHAR: No.

19 MS. OAKLEY: No.

20 DR. THICKE: No.

21 MS. BRIONES: No.

22 MS. DE LIMA: No.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: No.

2 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

3 DR. THICKE: So the next item up is

4 herbicides, soap-based and Sue was the lead on

5 that one.

6 DR. BRINES: And I will go ahead and

7 introduce it first.

8 So we're moving on to paragraph (b),

9 same Section 205.601. As herbicides, weed

10 barriers, as applicable. And the listing is (1)

11 Herbicides, soap-based -- for use in the

12 farmstead maintenance (roadways, ditches, right

13 of ways, building perimeters) and ornamental

14 crops.

15 And the most recent technical report

16 was completed in 2015. Thank you.

17 MS. BAIRD: Thank you. Soap-based

18 herbicides are generally comprised of fatty acid

19 components. They are produced, the fatty acids

20 are produced through a practice process known as 

21 saponification. This came up. We had 46

22 comments on the removal of herbicidal soaps; 34
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1 of those were in favor of remaining on the list. 

2 There were 12 that were concerned because of

3 perhaps environmental issues. 

4 Technical review did show that there

5 could be some damage issues to some aquatic

6 animals but a recent EPA statement showed that

7 they didn't see that would happen because there

8 was very low impact of runoffs into the water

9 systems.

10 So, we made a motion -- I made a

11 motion not to list, correct?

12 DR. THICKE: Well, is there any

13 discussion? Emily.

14 MS. OAKLEY: I have reservations about

15 this material for the reasons stated in the TR in

16 that it can also be potentially toxic to soil17 dwelling organisms. I also know that you are

18 supposed to apply not near waterways but I think

19 that there is a potential for that to sometimes

20 happen. So, I am conflicted on this product.

21 DR. THICKE: I actually am also

22 concerned. Reading the comments, everybody who
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1 said they wanted them that I saw said that they

2 are used to them but I never got a real reason. 

3 I mean it didn't even seem like they are using

4 them.

5 I don't know why you can't just mow

6 grass, why you have to use a herbicide. I've

7 never seen anybody use it around -- I mean it's

8 around roadways, around buildings and such and

9 that is kind of where people mow. Anybody have

10 any -- am I wrong about that?

11 I mean is there a need to put a

12 herbicide on the farmstead?

13 Yes, Harriet.

14 MS. BEHAR: Well, I don't know that

15 I've seen people use this one. I've seen them

16 use the citric acid-based herbicide around bins,

17 where it is fairly difficult to get up close and

18 maybe they have gravel there and the grass is

19 growing up and they are trying to keep rodent

20 habitat down. So they like to keep it clean

21 right around the base of the bin.

22 DR. THICKE: Scott?
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1 MR. RICE: Yes, we've heard from the

2 growers that we certify. They use this. It is a

3 tool in their toolbox and I would advocate

4 continued support with recognition that there is

5 continued oversight at inspection and by

6 certifiers to ensure that this is being used or

7 include inspections that this is being used

8 appropriately and to label use.

9 DR. THICKE: Any other comments? 

10 Ashley.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes, so this is not on

12 my materials input list but I have actually

13 inquired about putting one product like this on

14 my materials input list for like my seed starting

15 greenhouse is gravel on the bottom and it's like

16 Bermuda grass central. So that is kind of the

17 scenario I would want to use it in, is spraying

18 it on the gravel underneath stuff.

19 DR. THICKE: You wouldn't want mow on

20 the gravel you said?

21 MS. SWAFFAR: It's gravel. So I have

22 like plastic down and then gravel on top. So you
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1 can't mow --

2 DR. THICKE: Oh, okay.

3 MS. SWAFFAR: -- inside my little

4 greenhouse. 

5 So that is the scenario I would use

6 something like this on.

7 DR. THICKE: Inside. You said inside

8 the greenhouse?

9 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

10 DR. THICKE: Okay. Steve.

11 MR. ELA: We don't use it personally

12 but I can certainly see it's not -- like in the

13 West, it's not always that easy to mow,

14 especially if you have rocky ground.

15 And with FSMA now and gaps, I mean if

16 you have a packing facility, you are required to

17 have, for rodent control around the edges of

18 those buildings, you know keep the weeds down and

19 such. So I can see where it could be expedient.

20 I mean you can go out and weed whack

21 and spend a lot of time but it takes a lot of

22 time and it's hard to stay on top of. So I can
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1 see a use for it.

2 DR. THICKE: Okay, Sue.

3 MS. BAIRD: Yes, and I do do a lot of

4 inspections in the West and they do have problems

5 a lot of times around the roadways. They are

6 pretty steep. It would be really pretty

7 difficult for them to mow without having tractor

8 incidences. They really feel like it's important

9 to have.

10 DR. THICKE: Dan?

11 DR. SEITZ: Question for Scott. Are

12 there equivalent substances for control, weed

13 control?

14 MR. RICE: There is always cultural

15 practices but, as fellow Board members have just

16 expressed, it's a lot of manual removal.

17 DR. SEITZ: But no other equivalent

18 substances.

19 DR. THICKE: Harriet.

20 MS. BEHAR: Yes, there is a citric

21 acetic -- citric acid and acetic acid. And there

22 is environmental issues there, too. And that's
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1 the one I see more often in the Midwest.

2 DR. THICKE: Tom, did you have your

3 hand up? Oh, okay. Anybody else?

4 Okay, I guess we're ready to vote,

5 then, Tom.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, so the motion is

7 to remove soap-based herbicides from 205.601(b). 

8 The motion comes from Sue Baird and was seconded

9 by Jesse Buie.

10 Voting will start with Joelle. A yes

11 vote is to remove; a no vote is to retain.

12 MS. MOSSO: No.

13 MR. ELA: No.

14 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

15 MR. BUIE: No.

16 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

17 DR. SEITZ: No.

18 MR. RICE: No.

19 MS. BAIRD: No.

20 MS. BEHAR: No.

21 MS. OAKLEY: Abstain.

22 DR. THICKE: No.
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1 MS. BRIONES: No.

2 MS. DE LIMA: No.

3 MR. BRADMAN: No.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

5 Zero yes, 14 no, one abstention. The

6 motion fails.

7 DR. THICKE: The next item up is

8 biodegradable, biobased mulch film. Harriet --

9 and Lisa first.

10 DR. BRINES: All right. Thank you. 

11 We're continuing on under paragraph (b) of

12 205.601 as herbicides, weed barriers, as

13 applicable: (ii) mulches; (iii) biodegradable

14 biobased mulch film, as defined in Section 205.2

15 must be produced without organisms or feedstock

16 derived from excluded methods.

17 This is the substance's first sunset

18 review and technical reports were completed in

19 2012, 2015, and 2016. Thanks.

20 DR. THICKE: Harriet.

21 MS. BEHAR: Okay, so numerous

22 certifiers, and growers, and many others have
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1 supported the relisting as it is, which is the

2 way the subcommittee voted, in a hope that we

3 will continue to monitor ongoing research. Our

4 most recent technical review asked some questions

5 that could not be answered because the research

6 was not yet complete, which included questions

7 about long-term use and effect on soil life. And

8 since it's a fairly new product, we just didn't

9 have that long-term research, so if someone was

10 using that mulch and it was biodegrading in the

11 same place year after year.

12 There were some public interest groups

13 that felt that since there is no product that

14 currently meets the standard, we should just

15 remove it.

16 One company presented on this product

17 during the public comment webinar that they have

18 a 100 percent biobased mulch but that going

19 through the testing in order to meet the

20 annotation was cost prohibitive, in order to

21 demonstrate the biodegradability and doing

22 proposed on-farm field testing could possibly be
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1 an alternative to that testing where they have to

2 pay for that approval that is in the annotation.

3 The Crops Subcommittee intends to

4 continue monitoring the possibility of this 100

5 percent biobased product. We just found out

6 about it. So because we know that finding a

7 product that would be acceptable either under the

8 current annotation or by changing the annotation

9 could be useful to many organic specialty crop

10 producers.

11 Of course right now when they use a

12 plastic mulch, they have to put down and pick it

13 up. And there are environmental concerns, too,

14 of taking it to the landfill and that sort of

15 thing.

16 So the Crops Subcommittee recommended

17 to renew this material with no change to the

18 annotation and will keep monitoring as things

19 continue to -- we learn more from research and

20 possibly other products.

21 And the vote was no to remove and one

22 absent -- eight no to remove.
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1 DR. THICKE: Eight no. Okay.

2 Questions? Emily.

3 MS. OAKLEY: I remember we discussed

4 in the subcommittee whether or not we should

5 remove this listing and you said that we should

6 keep it because it also includes Kraft paper. Is

7 that still accurate?

8 MS. BEHAR: Yes, so there is a product

9 that is approved by OMRI that is a paper product. 

10 So there is actually a 100 percent biobased

11 mulch. It's not really a film. It's paper.

12 DR. THICKE: Other comments,

13 questions?

14 MR. BRADMAN: Just I think we also

15 talked about possibly revisiting it at the spring

16 meeting. I wasn't sure. Did we put a time frame

17 on when we would revisit this issue, in terms of

18 the other kinds of biodegradable mulches?

19 MS. BEHAR: I think the Technical

20 Review said it was at least two more years until

21 the testing would be done to give us the answers

22 to our questions, especially concerning long-term
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1 use. Because if this product is degrading into

2 the soil, we wanted to know what if someone used

3 it for five or ten years in the same place; is

4 there any kind of impact there?

5 DR. THICKE: Any other comments?

6 I guess we're ready to vote, Tom.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. The motion is to

8 remove biodegradable, biobased mulch film as

9 defined in 205.2. It must be produced -- it's

10 cut off. It must be produced without organisms

11 or feedstock derived from excluded methods.

12 The motion was made by Harriet and

13 seconded by Emily. 

14 The voting will start with Steve. A

15 yes vote is to remove; a no vote is to retain.

16 MR. ELA: No.

17 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

18 MR. BUIE: No.

19 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

20 DR. SEITZ: No.

21 MR. RICE: No.

22 MS. BAIRD: No.
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1 MS. BEHAR: No.

2 MS. OAKLEY: No.

3 DR. THICKE: No.

4 MS. BRIONES: No.

5 MS. DE LIMA: No.

6 MR. BRADMAN: No.

7 MS. MOSSO: No.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

9 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

10 Before we go on to the next slide, I

11 forgot to mention, just for the education of the

12 public, the Board conducts business by decisive

13 votes of a two-thirds majority only. And just

14 none of these votes were close but just for that

15 to be out there in the public knowledge.

16 Sorry, Francis.

17 DR. THICKE: The next item is boric

18 acid. Lisa.

19 DR. BRINES: Thank you. We are moving

20 on to paragraph (e) in the same section, as

21 insecticides (including acaricides or mite

22 control). (3) Boric acid -- structural pest
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1 control, no direct contact with organic food or

2 crops.

3 And the last Technical Advisory Panel

4 Report was completed in '95. Thanks.

5 DR. THICKE: And Harriet is the lead.

6 MS. BEHAR: So boric acid is often

7 used in packing sheds and other facilities. Many

8 times it is used as a powder introduced into

9 cracks and crevices and is essential for

10 controlling ants and roaches.

11 A number of members of the public did

12 comment regarding the listing of boric acid and

13 the majority supported relisting.

14 Numerous distributors, food processing

15 businesses, certifiers, and farmers recommended

16 relisting as a necessary tool for the control of

17 ants and roaches in packing houses and food

18 handling facilities. One certifier noted that it

19 was not used in any of their certified

20 operations, however. 

21 A few organizations recommended

22 changing the annotation to read for use only as
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1 bait in traps or in gel formulations due to the

2 issue of the powder could be an irritant.

3 The Crops Subcommittee would consider

4 a petition regarding this annotation change

5 sometime in the future.

6 Overall, the public comment was in

7 favor of relisting this material as an essential

8 tool for structural pest control. And the vote

9 was to retain or to not remove; eight to not

10 remove and one absent.

11 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Harriet. Any

12 comments or questions on boric acid? Emily.

13 MS. OAKLEY: Steve, I thought I

14 remembered you saying that you used the powdered

15 form in cracks and that the gel would be a

16 difficult use for that.

17 MR. ELA: I don't think it was us but

18 it was -- I remember it. It wasn't me but it was

19 somebody on the committee did mention that it was

20 easier to apply in cracks if it weren't in a gel

21 or a liquid form. So I think the committee

22 decided, taking that under advisement decided
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1 that that was a viable use, with the lack of

2 other evidence.

3 DR. THICKE: Other comments or

4 questions?

5 Okay, Tom, we're ready to vote.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, the motion is to

7 remove boric acid as insecticide, including

8 acaricides or mite control. Boric acid --

9 structural pest control, no direct contact with

10 organic food or crops from 205.601(e) based on

11 the following criteria in OFPA.

12 The motion was made by Harriet and

13 seconded by Francis. This is a motion to remove. 

14 So a yes vote is to remove; a no vote is to

15 retain.

16 Voting starts with Dave.

17 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

18 MR. BUIE: No.

19 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

20 DR. SEITZ: No.

21 MR. RICE: No.

22 MS. BAIRD: No.
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1 MS. BEHAR: No.

2 MS. OAKLEY: No.

3 DR. THICKE: No.

4 MS. BRIONES: No.

5 MS. DE LIMA: No.

6 MR. BRADMAN: No.

7 MS. MOSSO: No.

8 MR. ELA: No.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

10 Zero yes, 15 no and the motion fails.

11 DR. THICKE: The next item up is

12 sticky traps/barriers. Lisa.

13 DR. BRINES: Thank you. We are

14 continuing under paragraph (e) As insecticides

15 (including acaricides or mite control). The

16 listing is (9) Sticky traps/barriers. 

17 And the last Technical Report was

18 completed in '95. Thanks.

19 DR. THICKE: And Emily.

20 MS. OAKLEY: This is a relatively

21 uncontentious issue. As we discussed in the

22 spring, it covers a wide range of traps and
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1 coatings made with a number of different

2 materials.

3 They are typically used for pest

4 control and monitoring in limited quantities and

5 in confined areas such as tree trunks. Some non6 specific targeting or trapping can happen,

7 although that is not targeted, and that can

8 include spiders, mites, reptiles, and amphibians. 

9 They don't attract them but they can get trapped.

10 To that point, as in our previous

11 review, there was broad support for relisting it

12 among farmers, certifiers, and trade

13 organizations with a comment and a request that

14 we consider an annotation that would suggest that

15 the traps be used in a way that prevents non16 target trapping.

17 Any questions?

18 DR. THICKE: Nothing. Okay.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. So the motion is

20 to remove sticky traps from 205.601(e). The

21 motion was made by Emily and seconded by Sue. 

22 This is a motion to remove. A yes
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1 vote is to remove; a no vote is to retain and the

2 voting will start with Jesse.

3 MR. BUIE: No.

4 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

5 DR. SEITZ: No.

6 MR. RICE: No.

7 MS. BAIRD: No.

8 MS. BEHAR: No.

9 MS. OAKLEY: No.

10 DR. THICKE: No.

11 MS. BRIONES: No.

12 MS. DE LIMA: No.

13 MR. BRADMAN: No.

14 MS. MOSSO: No.

15 MR. ELA: No.

16 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

18 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

19 DR. THICKE: So next, we have two

20 copper materials, coppers, fixed and copper

21 sulfate. And we will discuss them together and

22 vote separately on them.
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1 Lisa.

2 DR. BRINES: Yes, thanks, Francis.

3 The first listing -- we're under

4 Section 205.601 (i) As plant disease control. (2)

5 Coppers, fixed -- copper hydroxide, copper oxide,

6 copper oxychloride, includes product exempted

7 from EPA tolerance, provided that copper-based

8 materials must be used in a manner that minimizes

9 accumulation in the soil and shall not be used as

10 herbicides.

11 And the second listing also under

12 paragraph (i)(3) is copper sulfate -- substance

13 must be used in a manner that minimizes

14 accumulation of copper in the soil.

15 And a comprehensive report on these

16 copper materials was last completed in 2011.

17 Thanks.

18 DR. THICKE: Steve.

19 MR. ELA: So yes, we're going to talk

20 about both coppers simultaneously. The

21 overwhelming public comment is in support of it,

22 that they are extremely critical for disease
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1 control on a number of organic crops. 

2 The only negative comments were last

3 spring, where there was some concern that there

4 was overuse and there was copper residue on

5 crops. The certifiers said that was very

6 difficult -- would be very difficult to enforce

7 but included in the annotations on that.

8 And then there was a comment that was

9 looking to document multiple alternative attempts

10 to control the disease, including in-field crop

11 diversity. So in other words, finding some

12 alternative to using coppers through diversity or

13 other cultural practices.

14 But overall, the main emphasis was

15 coppers are very critical to the organic

16 industry.

17 DR. THICKE: Any comments, questions?

18 Okay, Tom.

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, so there is two

20 items. We are going to start with coppers,

21 fixed. The motion is -- all right, we are going

22 to go with copper sulfate first to keep our
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1 voting sheet easy.

2 Copper sulfate -- the motion is to

3 remove copper sulfate from 205.601(i). The

4 motion was made by Steve and seconded by Francis. 

5 This is a motion to remove so a yes

6 vote is to remove; a no vote is to abstain. And

7 the voting starts with Ashley.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

9 DR. SEITZ: No.

10 MR. RICE: No.

11 MS. BAIRD: No.

12 MS. BEHAR: No.

13 MS. OAKLEY: No.

14 DR. THICKE: No.

15 MS. BRIONES: No.

16 MR. BRADMAN: No.

17 MS. MOSSO: No.

18 MR. ELA: No.

19 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

20 MR. BUIE: No.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

22 Zero yes, 14 no, zero abstain, zero
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1 recuse, one absent. The motion fails.

2 DR. THICKE: Next up is --

3 MR. CHAPMAN: I have got to vote on

4 the other one.

5 DR. THICKE: You're right.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: So coppers, fixed the

7 motion is to remove coopers, fixed from

8 205.601(i). The motion was made by Steve and

9 seconded by Emily. It is a motion to remove. 

10 A yes vote is to remove; a no vote is

11 to retain. And the voting will start with Dan.

12 DR. SEITZ: No.

13 MR. RICE: No.

14 MS. BAIRD: No.

15 MS. BEHAR: No.

16 MS. OAKLEY: No.

17 DR. THICKE: No.

18 MS. BRIONES: No.

19 MS. DE LIMA: No.

20 MR. BRADMAN: No.

21 MS. MOSSO: No.

22 MR. ELA: No.
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

2 MR. BUIE: No.

3 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

5 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

6 DR. THICKE: Okay, now up is humic

7 acids.

8 DR. BRINES: Thank you.

9 We are moving to paragraph (j) As

10 plant or soil amendments. And the listing is (3) 

11 Humic acids -- naturally occurring deposits,

12 water, and alkali extracts only.

13 And the most recent Technical Report

14 was completed in 2012. Thanks.

15 DR. THICKE: Okay, any comments -- oh,

16 Asa, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

17 MR. BRADMAN: Just overall there has

18 been a number of comments related to humic acids,

19 representing up to 40, or 50, or more growers. 

20 And overall, there is overwhelming support for 

21 it.

22 There have been some concerns raised
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1 by Beyond Pesticides about its extraction and

2 manufacturing methods as a process, using, some

3 people use the term brown coal or you know

4 partially fossilized materials and the potential

5 environmental impacts of that.

6 In general, though, there is really

7 overwhelming support across the board for it and

8 I don't see any reason to take it off at this

9 point. And there was a unanimous support in the

10 subcommittee.

11 DR. THICKE: Okay, Emily.

12 MS. OAKLEY: I believe we have a typo

13 because it was not -- the motion was not made by

14 Ashley.

15 DR. THICKE: That's correct.

16 MS. OAKLEY: That would have been made

17 by Asa. So just correcting that.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: We'll make that

19 correction when we go to the vote.

20 DR. THICKE: Any other comments?

21 All right, we're ready to vote.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. So as was stated
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1 before -- can you scroll down -- there is a typo

2 on the record. The motion is by Asa Bradman. 

3 The second is by David Mortensen. That will be

4 corrected.

5 The motion to remove humic acids from

6 205.601(j), it is a motion to remove. And voting

7 starts with Scott.

8 A yes vote is to remove; a note vote

9 is to retain.

10 MR. RICE: No.

11 MS. BAIRD: No.

12 MS. BEHAR: No.

13 MS. OAKLEY: No.

14 DR. THICKE: No.

15 MS. BRIONES: No.

16 MS. DE LIMA: No.

17 MR. BRADMAN: No.

18 MS. MOSSO: No.

19 MR. ELA: No.

20 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

21 MR. BUIE: No.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: No.
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1 DR. SEITZ: No.

2 MR. CHAPMAN: No.

3 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

4 DR. THICKE: Okay, the next item up is

5 micronutrients -- soluble boron products.

6 Lisa.

7 DR. BRINES: Thank you. We are

8 continuing under paragraph (j) as plant or soil

9 amendments. And the listing is micronutrients --

10 not to be used as a defoliant, herbicide, or

11 desiccant. Those made from nitrates or chlorides

12 are not allowed. Soil deficiency must be

13 documented by testing. And the listing is (i)

14 soluble boron products.

15 And the most recent Technical Report

16 was completed in 2010. Thanks.

17 DR. THICKE: Thank you. Harriet, I

18 believe.

19 MS. BEHAR: So all public commenters

20 were supportive of relisting this micronutrient,

21 calling it essential. Certifiers, distributors,

22 food processing business, and many individual
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1 growers stated their need for this material and

2 that it is very commonly used.

3 One commenter felt there should be a

4 way to address overaccumulation of all

5 micronutrients used by organic growers. I'm not

6 sure how we'll do that but it's a comment.

7 Others felt that if testing must be

8 done before micronutrients may be used, the

9 application may be too late to save the crop or

10 perennial plant.

11 The subcommittee supported the

12 proposed annotation change recommended by the

13 NOSB in October 2015, which stated instead of

14 stating that soil testing must be documented, it

15 says that deficiency must be documented and it

16 takes away the requirement for testing as well.

17 But at this time, that has not been

18 changed in our regulation.

19 Removing the requirement that there

20 must be soil testing before allowing application

21 is problematic for both perennial and annual crop

22 producers. And there is numerous ways of
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1 documenting a deficiency, other than soil

2 testing. By the time the deficiency is noted, it

3 may be too late to save the perennial plant or

4 crop. And this is an essential micronutrient

5 across all types of crop production.

6 DR. THICKE: Any comments or

7 questions?

8 MS. BEHAR: We didn't give the vote. 

9 So the Crops Subcommittee vote was eight no to

10 remove and one absent.

11 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Harriet.

12 Tom.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: All right, so the motion

14 is to remove micronutrients, soluble boron

15 products from 205.601(j). The motion was made by

16 Harriet; it was seconded by Jesse.

17 This is a motion to remove so a yes is

18 to remove; a no is to retain. And the voting

19 starts with Harriet. Sorry, the voting starts

20 with Sue.

21 MS. BAIRD: No.

22 MS. BEHAR: No.
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1 MS. OAKLEY: No.

2 DR. THICKE: No.

3 MS. BRIONES: No.

4 MS. DE LIMA: No.

5 MR. BRADMAN: No.

6 MS. MOSSO: No.

7 MR. ELA: No.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

9 MR. BUIE: No.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

11 MR. RICE: No.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

13 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

14 Francis.

15 DR. THICKE: The next material is

16 vitamins, B1, C and -- oh, the other

17 micronutrients. Excuse me.

18 So micronutrients, sulfates,

19 carbonates, oxides, or silicates of zinc, copper,

20 iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and

21 cobalt.

22 Lisa.
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1 DR. BRINES: Thanks, Francis. Yes, we

2 are still under the same paragraph (j)(6) As

3 plant or soil amendments. Micronutrients -- not

4 to be used as a defoliant, herbicide, or

5 desiccant. Those made from nitrates or chlorides

6 are not allowed. Soil deficiency must be

7 documented by testing. And it's under (ii)

8 sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of

9 zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum,

10 selenium, and cobalt.

11 And the last Technical Report was done

12 in 2010. Thanks.

13 DR. THICKE: And Harriet is the lead

14 on that.

15 MS. BEHAR: So basically the comments

16 on these micronutrients was pretty much identical

17 to the previous one we just voted on, the soluble

18 boron. A lot of supportive comments on relisting

19 these micronutrients, calling them essential in a

20 variety of cropping systems. This material also

21 had the same voted upon and approved by the NOSP

22 -- NOSB, excuse me, changed to deficiency must be
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1 documented instead of must be documented by

2 testing.

3 And yes, so and then the vote was six

4 no to remove and three absent.

5 DR. THICKE: Okay, any comments?

6 I guess not.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, the motion is to

8 remove micronutrients, sulfates, carbonates,

9 oxides, and silicate of zinc, copper, iron,

10 manganese -- I should have been paying attention.

11 How do I say that, Francis, molybdenum --

12 DR. THICKE: Molybdenum.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: -- selenium, and cobalt

14 at 205.601(j). 

15 The motion was made by Harriet and

16 seconded by Steve.

17 The voting will start with Harriet. 

18 This is a motion to remove so a yes is to remove

19 and no is to retain.

20 MS. BEHAR: No.

21 MS. OAKLEY: No.

22 DR. THICKE: No.
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1 MS. BRIONES: No.

2 MS. DE LIMA: No.

3 MR. BRADMAN: No.

4 MS. MOSSO: No.

5 MR. ELA: No.

6 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

7 MR. BUIE: No.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

9 DR. SEITZ: No.

10 MR. RICE: No.

11 MS. BAIRD: No.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

13 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

14 DR. THICKE: The next material,

15 vitamins B1, C, and E.

16 Lisa.

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you and I will

18 introduce all three at once. I am going to turn

19 it over to the subcommittee where there are two

20 motions.

21 So we are still under paragraph (j) as

22 plant or soil amendments and it is listing (8)
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1 vitamins B1, C, and E.

2 And Technical Report was completed in

3 2015. Thanks.

4 DR. THICKE: So Emily is the lead and

5 your splitting them out into two here.

6 MS. OAKLEY: We are because we are

7 recommending the removal of B1 but the retention

8 of C and E.

9 And the reason for that is that the

10 2015 TR was very clear that the available

11 literature did not support the premise that

12 foliar and solar applications of vitamin B1 are

13 responsible for root stimulation in transplanted

14 crops.

15 Additionally, multiple studies of

16 vegetable transplants, trees, and flowers

17 concluded that vitamin B1 had no impact on

18 seedling vigor, size, color, or root development. 

19 The TR was unable to describe a mode of action

20 for the substance, quote, in the absence of

21 significant in vivo results correlating vitamin

22 B1 applications with enhanced root growth.
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1 The TR provides a broad reference to

2 alternative substances for vitamin B1. 

3 Additionally, there are no OMRI-approved brand

4 name crop inputs containing B1 in the final

5 product.

6 We did hear from a few people that

7 there are some blended fertilizers that do

8 contain all three but there are multiple other

9 options that are available for them. So I don't

10 -- no one has expressed that it would be a

11 hardship in any way to remove the substance. And

12 since it doesn't do what it is listed for, I

13 think it is clear that we should remove it.

14 Are there any questions or discussions

15 about that?

16 MS. BEHAR: Were there any products in

17 the marketplace that will come -- that will be no

18 longer available to organic growers if it has

19 been bundled?

20 MS. OAKLEY: Well there are at least

21 six materials that were listed that do contain it

22 in which it's bundled that growers are using but
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1 I don't think the fact that it's bundled in a few

2 materials is a justification for keeping it

3 because it is not effective and there are other

4 materials available.

5 Yes?

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Was it six materials or

7 six users with the material?

8 MS. OAKLEY: It was materials. 

9 Additionally, I can provide some additional

10 information that did not come through the public

11 docket that was provided to me by someone at the

12 California Department of Food and Agriculture and

13 they also do not see that this is a substance

14 that has the efficacy that it claims that it

15 includes. Although they have a handful of

16 products registered for it, they don't see it as

17 something that substantiates its claims.

18 Any other questions? Because this

19 would be a motion to remove this substance so, if

20 you have any other questions, that's fine.

21 DR. THICKE: Scott.

22 MR. RICE: Just a quick comment. It
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1 was my understanding that those that may have B1

2 in their formulation could be reformulated and,

3 if necessary, re-reviewed by a material review

4 organization and still be available as a tool in

5 the toolbox.

6 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you.

7 DR. THICKE: Okay, I guess we're ready

8 to vote.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Do we want to talk about

10 C and E and then just do both votes or is there

11 anything else?

12 MS. OAKLEY: No.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: No.

14 MS. OAKLEY: I think we can just start

15 with this one. 

16 Are there any other questions about C

17 and E? They are used to promote growth and

18 yields and to protect plants from oxidative

19 stress due to salinity but there really wasn't

20 any public comment strongly in favor of its

21 removal.

22 There was some concern about
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1 potentially deriving these materials from GE

2 organisms but, as stated previously in the

3 spring, affidavits can attest to the fact that GE

4 materials are not used for its production.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. And then I have a

6 question for Dr. Brines. And I think I know the

7 date but I don't want to say it wrong.

8 What is the sunset date that this

9 material is on. Is it 2022?

10 DR. BRINES: Yes, that's right, March

11 15, 2022.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: So just a reminder, as

13 part of our sunset reorganization, this is one of

14 those materials. And so if this does get voted

15 to remove, the recommendation as part of that was

16 for it to get removed on its original time line,

17 which is 2022.

18 MS. BEHAR: So that would leave plenty

19 of time for reformulation, would it not?

20 MS. BAIRD: If there really is some

21 uses for it. Also, a time for someone to come

22 forward and let us know.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, we'll move to the

2 vote?

3 DR. THICKE: We're ready for the vote.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay so the motion is to

5 remove vitamin B1 from 205.601(j) based on the

6 following criteria from the Organic Food

7 Productions Act or 7 CFR 205.600(b), if

8 applicable: incompatible with a system of

9 sustainable agriculture due to its unproven

10 efficacy or need and a lack of essentiality.

11 The motion was made by Emily and was

12 seconded by Steve.

13 This is a motion to remove. A yes

14 vote is to remove; a no vote is to retain. And

15 the voting starts with Emily.

16 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

17 DR. THICKE: Yes.

18 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

19 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

20 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

21 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

22 MR. ELA: Yes.
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

2 MR. BUIE: Yes.

3 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

4 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

5 MR. RICE: Yes.

6 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

7 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

8 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes yes.

9 Fifteen yes, zero no. The motion

10 passes.

11 DR. THICKE: So are there any other

12 comments or discussion on vitamins C and E?

13 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, the motion to

14 remove vitamins C and E from 205.601(j). The

15 motion was made by Emily and seconded by Harriet. 

16 This is a motion to remove. A yes

17 vote is to remove; a no vote is to retain. And

18 the voting starts with Francis.

19 DR. THICKE: No.

20 MS. BRIONES: No.

21 MS. DE LIMA: No.

22 MR. BRADMAN: No.
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1 MS. MOSSO: No.

2 MR. ELA: No.

3 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

4 MR. BUIE: No.

5 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

6 DR. SEITZ: No.

7 MR. RICE: No.

8 MS. BAIRD: No.

9 MS. BEHAR: No.

10 MS. OAKLEY: No.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

12 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

13 DR. THICKE: So next we have two items

14 from 205.602 that are nonsynthetic substances

15 prohibited for use in organic crop production. 

16 And the first one up is lead salts.

17 Lisa.

18 DR. BRINES: Okay, thanks, Francis.

19 Yes, we are moving on to, as you said,

20 Section 205.602 of the National List,

21 nonsynthetic substances prohibited for use in

22 organic crop production and the first listing is
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1 under paragraph (d) lead salts. 

2 Thanks.

3 DR. THICKE: I'm the lead on this one. 

4 There were very few comments on lead salts and

5 its consensus that we should leave it on the

6 list, keep it prohibited for organic crop

7 production. And the committee voted unanimously

8 to keep it on the prohibited list.

9 Any comments or questions?

10 Harriet.

11 MS. BEHAR: In the past, it has been

12 used in my region, I believe on apples. And it

13 has just -- we have a lot of remediation problems

14 because it doesn't really move.

15 DR. THICKE: Okay. Okay, so no other

16 comments. And we're ready to vote.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: Can we scroll down?

18 Okay, this is a prohibited natural. 

19 It is a motion to remove lead salts from 205.602. 

20 The motion was made by Francis and seconded by

21 Emily. 

22 A yes is to remove the prohibited and
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1 no is to retain it as a prohibited. The voting

2 will start with A-Dae.

3 MS. BRIONES: No.

4 MS. DE LIMA: No.

5 MR. BRADMAN: No.

6 MS. MOSSO: No.

7 MR. ELA: No.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

9 MR. BUIE: No.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

11 DR. SEITZ: No.

12 MR. RICE: No.

13 MS. BAIRD: No.

14 MS. BEHAR: No.

15 MS. OAKLEY: No.

16 DR. THICKE: No.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

18 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

19 DR. THICKE: And the next item, the

20 last item of sunsets is tobacco dust.

21 Lisa.

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you. Yes, we are
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1 still under Section 205.602 and the listing is

2 under paragraph (i) Tobacco dust (nicotine

3 sulfate). 

4 Thanks.

5 DR. THICKE: The lead is Harriet.

6 MS. BEHAR: So public commenters, both

7 this time and the previous time, were from

8 certifiers and businesses, and public interest

9 organizations and all agreed that the product

10 should remain listed as a prohibited

11 nonsynthetic.

12 It was noted by two certifiers and

13 OMRI that this is currently allowed as a natural

14 agricultural product to be incorporated into the

15 soil or as compost feedstocks, while tobacco

16 dust, tea, and smoke are prohibited under the

17 USDA Organic Regulations.

18 So we voted as a subcommittee to keep

19 it retained. However, we might look at, in the

20 future, at the use of it as a soil amendment or a

21 compost feedstock. 

22 In addition, in the Livestock
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1 Subcommittee, I have heard animal health

2 practitioners discuss the use of tobacco dust as

3 a parasiticide, an external parasiticide. I

4 don't know since we have it -- because it is not

5 listed in the livestock prohibited. So maybe it

6 will get on the work agenda; maybe not. We'll

7 talk about it.

8 There really is no product available

9 on the market but it could still be homemade.

10 And our vote was eight to not remove

11 from the prohibited nonsynthetic list and one

12 absent.

13 DR. THICKE: Okay, thank you. 

14 Any questions or comments?

15 Okay, I guess we're ready to vote,

16 Tom.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. This is a

18 prohibited synthetic and the motion is to remove

19 tobacco dust from 205.602. The motion was made

20 by Harriet and was seconded by Joelle.

21 A yes vote is to remove from the

22 prohibited list; a no vote is to retain. The
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1 voting will start with Lisa.

2 MS. DE LIMA: No.

3 MR. BRADMAN: No.

4 MS. MOSSO: No.

5 MR. ELA: No.

6 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

7 MR. BUIE: No.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

9 DR. SEITZ: No.

10 MR. RICE: No.

11 MS. BAIRD: No.

12 MS. BEHAR: No.

13 MS. OAKLEY: No.

14 DR. THICKE: No.

15 MS. BRIONES: No.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

17 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

18 DR. THICKE: So, Tom, do you want to

19 move on to the next item or do you want to --

20 when do you want to take a break?

21 MR. CHAPMAN: You tell me but maybe we

22 go through a couple of petitions and then take a
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1 break.

2 DR. THICKE: That would be fine.

3 Okay so the next up is a petition for

4 fatty alcohols. And Jesse has the lead on that.

5 Are you going to -- 

6 DR. BRINES: Yes, I will go ahead and

7 introduce it before turning it over to Jesse. 

8 Thank you.

9 The petition is for fatty alcohols, a

10 mix of octanol and decanol. The petition was

11 submitted to the program on November 12, 2015. 

12 There is a petition addendum that was submitted

13 on June 12, 2017. And both the petition and

14 addendum are posted on the NOP website.

15 The petition was submitted by Green Ag

16 Supply, LLC and it requests the addition of fatty

17 alcohols to Section 205.601 of the National List

18 for sucker control.

19 In support of the review, the Crops

20 Subcommittee did request the development of a

21 Technical Evaluation Report, which was completed

22 in 2017. And this is the first meeting at which
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1 this material will be discussed. The material

2 has not been previously classified by the Board. 

3 Thanks.

4 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Lisa.

5 Jesse.

6 MR. BUIE: Fatty alcohols, octanol and 

7 decanol are monohydric aliphatic alcohols

8 containing eight and ten carbons, respectively,

9 with a single hydroxyl group. 

10 The petitioner proposes to use the

11 fatty alcohol blend for topping and sucker

12 control on organic crops. The Technical Review

13 indicates the specific use of fatty alcohol

14 substance to be to chemically remove flower buds

15 and suckers from tobacco plants.

16 The EPA has only approved fatty

17 alcohols for the use as a growth regulator on

18 tobacco and the technical review only covered the

19 use of fatty alcohols for use on tobacco.

20 The Crops Committee does not think the

21 use of a synthetic growth regulator is compatible

22 with a system of sustainable and organic
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1 agriculture.

2 DR. THICKE: Harriet.

3 MS. BEHAR: I'd like to make a motion

4 to send it back to the subcommittee.

5 DR. THICKE: I'll second it.

6 Emily?

7 MS. OAKLEY: So Francis and I are

8 going to disagree. 

9 I think that we should go ahead and

10 vote on this material now. I understand the

11 concerns of the petitioner but he first started

12 contacting the NOSB and the NOP mid- to late

13 September and there was a great deal of time to

14 continue to make public comments written. And at

15 the time, the webinar was not at all full. So

16 farmers could have spoken on the webinar if they

17 had chosen to.

18 And as Steve stressed when we spoke

19 with him, I feel that the lack of written

20 comments on the docket now, other than to request

21 that we send it back, don't provide us with

22 substantial information to justify a change in
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1 the deliberations that we took over the Crops

2 Subcommittee, which were lengthy and over many

3 meetings and were not at all quick or hasty.

4 I don't think sending it back would

5 change our outcome.

6 MR. MORTENSEN: I had a similar

7 feeling from the many times we discussed this on

8 the phone together and reread the documents. So,

9 I agree with Emily.

10 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Dave.

11 Ashley, did you have your hand up?

12 MS. SWAFFAR: So I agree with you,

13 Emily, also. You know I think the petitioner did

14 not take advantage of the written public comment. 

15 You know to think for the entire audience to know

16 we look at every comment the same whether you

17 give it to us in person or written. A lot of

18 times written comments help us even more so

19 because we can really think it over and do some

20 other research, instead of trying to research on

21 the fly.

22 So I was really disappointed that of
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1 the seven times fatty acid came up in the

2 regulations.gov, it was a lot of consumer

3 organizations and then the petitioner asking us

4 to take it back.

5 So I think that they missed the boat

6 on that one. I would be in support of voting on

7 this.

8 DR. THICKE: Tom and then Harriet.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: I think Asa was before

10 me.

11 DR. THICKE: I didn't see you Asa. Go

12 ahead.

13 MR. BRADMAN: I just I mean for me, in

14 terms of the committee discussions, the fact that

15 it was submitted for all crops but EPA only has

16 it approved for tobacco, to me then it was just a

17 nonissue because the request was for beyond its

18 approved use. So I felt like there was

19 inconsistency there.

20 I would be willing to reconsider that,

21 if it came back to committee to really focus on

22 whether we are talking all crops or just tobacco. 
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1 I understand the TR focus just on tobacco.

2 DR. THICKE: Tom.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: I agree with everything

4 I heard here from all the subcommittee members

5 and I, as chair, often listen in on calls, even

6 if I'm not on the subcommittee. And I can attest

7 that there was an in-depth discussion and review

8 of this item. And I agree that I doubt any

9 additional information will change their outcome.

10 However, I do generally acquiesce to

11 requests for delay, especially if this is not a

12 listed item, the delay will not continue a

13 listing of an item.

14 So I will vote for this motion but I

15 also agree that I have no confidence that it's

16 probably going to change anything. And I agree

17 with the concerns that there were several

18 opportunities for additional public comment that

19 were not utilized.

20 DR. THICKE: Harriet and then Emily.

21 MS. BEHAR: I made the motion to send

22 it back to the subcommittee so that we would have
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1 a public discussion about whether or not we

2 wanted to but I don't think -- but personally, I

3 am not going to vote for my own motion because we

4 reviewed the material as we could. We reviewed

5 it for use on tobacco, which is all we can really

6 do and we did a robust review. And I think we're

7 ready to vote but I thought it was important that

8 we had this discussion.

9 DR. THICKE: Emily.

10 MS. OAKLEY: Two comments. One is

11 that I also would just encourage stakeholders to

12 make their comments via the open docket, rather

13 than individually to the NOP or the NOSB because

14 that makes this process clear for all of the

15 stakeholder community and those communications

16 that happened just with us individually, we're

17 not available to everyone else and I have

18 concerns about that.

19 Secondly, the reason I don't think

20 that we should send this back is that it is a

21 petition material. It is not the action of

22 removing a substance. It does add to our
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1 workload unnecessarily, when we have already done

2 the work on this petition.

3 DR. THICKE: Okay I just want to make

4 a comment that what Asa brought up, the NOSB has,

5 in the past, restricted some requests that were

6 more broad and then we restricted them down in an

7 annotation. So we have done that in the past. 

8 So it is a possibility.

9 Did you have your hand up, Lisa? 

10 Okay, go ahead.

11 MS. DE LIMA: Since I'm not on the

12 Crops Subcommittee, I wasn't on those calls. Can

13 you talk a little bit about why you don't think

14 the vote would be any different if we sent it

15 back and brought it back?

16 DR. THICKE: Who wants to do that? 

17 Emily? Jesse?

18 MR. BUIE: Well, I guess the main

19 issue is that the petitioner requested the use of

20 the product on all organic crops, where the TR

21 only discussed its use on tobacco.

22 MS. DE LIMA: So it's not for like an
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1 environmental reason.

2 MR. BUIE: No.

3 DR. THICKE: Emily wants to talk about

4 that I can see.

5 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, I mean I would just

6 add that I don't think our deliberations were

7 based on whether or not it would be used for all

8 crops or tobacco. It was that we were very

9 firmly in belief that such a material plant

10 growth regulator was not appropriate for use in

11 organic production and that there are viable

12 alternatives, namely, handpicking and removal of

13 the buds, and that we shouldn't a material, a

14 synthetic such as this that is inconsistent with

15 our understanding of the principles of organic

16 agriculture.

17 I also had some concerns with respect

18 to the TR and the sources of these materials but

19 I won't go into all those details. Those were

20 deliberated on the call. But yes, there were

21 environmental concerns.

22 DR. THICKE: Steve.
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1 MR. ELA: I would echo what Emily

2 says. It wasn't just based on procedural

3 dynamics. I mean I think that would be -- then

4 you could have a reasonable argument but it was

5 that the material itself would reasonably be

6 rejected, regardless of what the petition said.

7 DR. THICKE: Harriet.

8 MS. BEHAR: And we did not look at it

9 that oh, it's tobacco so we don't want to grow

10 organic tobacco either. We weren't prejudiced

11 against the plant itself, either. It was more

12 its use and its place -- its basic mechanism in

13 the environment and on the plant.

14 DR. THICKE: Scott.

15 MR. RICE: Yes, we heard from a couple

16 of certifiers that they have gotten requests to

17 use this specifically for tobacco. But I can

18 understand the Crops Subcommittee's deliberations

19 that this may not be essential, or necessary, or

20 parallel, or in line with organic principles.

21 And on the subject of sending it back,

22 I think I would echo Tom's comments that it will
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1 still be not allowed, whether we vote on it today

2 or not, with all due respect to workload. It

3 might just be putting it back on for additional

4 comment, as we did with marine materials.

5 DR. THICKE: Yes, I don't disagree

6 with those assessments. It is likely to be the

7 same vote, if we do send it back. 

8 I feel, though, I was in the middle of

9 a miscommunication so I will probably vote to

10 send it back. And I won't be here anyway.

11 Any other comments?

12 MR. BRADMAN: I just, the

13 representative from Florida Organic Growers also

14 suggested we hear from other growers and things

15 like that. And we all love Marty and so that

16 made me a little more open to hearing some more

17 about this.

18 DR. THICKE: Steve.

19 MR. ELA: Yes, but I come back to

20 there was the webinar and there were written

21 comments. I mean there was nobody shutting down

22 the conversation. It wasn't because there wasn't
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1 adequate time. It was -- there was time.

2 So I mean we have a process and I

3 think, because of workload, people need to

4 respect that process.

5 DR. THICKE: Okay. It looks like

6 we're ready for a vote.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. This is not a

8 motion about business and, therefore, it follows

9 the Robert's Rules of Order. And as such, it is

10 a simple majority vote. So eight votes are all

11 that are necessary to send this motion back.

12 The motion is to refer back to

13 subcommittee the petition on fatty alcohols.

14 The voting will start with Asa. And

15 so in this case, a yes vote is to refer back to

16 the subcommittee; a no vote is to continue

17 deliberation here.

18 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

19 MS. MOSSO: No.

20 MR. ELA: No.

21 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

22 MR. BUIE: No.
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1 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

2 DR. SEITZ: No.

3 MR. RICE: Yes.

4 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

5 MS. BEHAR: No.

6 MS. OAKLEY: No.

7 DR. THICKE: Yes.

8 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

9 MS. DE LIMA: No.

10 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes yes.

11 Six yes, nine no. The motion fails.

12 DR. THICKE: Okay, I guess we're ready

13 for the real vote here, unless there are any

14 other comments on the substance of the material.

15 MR. CHAPMAN: I have a question.

16 DR. THICKE: Yes.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: So this is a synthetic. 

18 The reasoning from the subcommittee was that it

19 is a synthetic growth regulator. Are there other 

20 synthetic growth regulators on the crops list

21 and, if so, how is this different?

22 DR. THICKE: Okay, there is ethylene,
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1 I believe, for pineapple flowering and that was

2 very controversial. And so it probably isn't

3 different then. It wasn't like shooed through.

4 Steve.

5 MR. ELA: I think Francis is right and

6 I don't know the complete list so I can't say

7 there's nothing else. But since there were

8 alternatives in hand labor or other ways, it

9 wasn't that this was the only way the crop could

10 be grown. And so to put a synthetic in when

11 there were organic alternatives seemed

12 antithetical.

13 I, personally, raised the labor issue

14 that I don't think people love working in tobacco

15 and there are dermal toxicities and such. But it

16 still seems that there are -- this is not -- this

17 may be convenient and very useful, and cheaper to

18 raise the crop but it's not critical to raise the

19 crop. And I think that is the fundamental

20 difference as we evaluate synthetic materials.

21 DR. THICKE: Tom.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: So I do remember the
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1 most recent sunset discussion on ethylene in

2 Vermont. And one of the arguments made by the

3 pineapple industry was that it was -- there were

4 human health impacts related to going out into

5 the pineapple fields with the sharp edges of the

6 plant and such during the varied harvest times. 

7 So uniform harvesting was important to them.

8 Is this purely a labor economic issue

9 on the labor side or is there human health

10 implications? How well were they considered? I

11 know you touched on it a little bit there, Steve.

12 MR. ELA: Well, my response would be I

13 brought that up as a personal knowledge, not that

14 it was brought up in public comment, or via the

15 petition, or in the TR.

16 So it wasn't a big enough scale issue

17 to hit the radar. I brought it up antithetically 

18 from personal knowledge.

19 DR. THICKE: Emily.

20 MS. OAKLEY: If there is any toxicity

21 associated with the labor, it's associated with

22 the crop itself. So they are growing a toxic
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1 crop. It's not that -- which is like a unique

2 situation in this case but it's not a scratching

3 in relation to pineapple.

4 But it has been done for a very long

5 time without this material, with no adverse

6 effects represented in the petition.

7 MR. MORTENSEN: And we did, on two

8 separate occasions, discuss the physical contact,

9 the hand suckering versus something else.

10 Personally, I have worked in tobacco

11 in doing research and have been with work crews

12 in the field. It's not comfortable but we

13 concluded from the various discussions we had

14 that it was certainly doable.

15 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes, so I am not

16 familiar with growing the tobacco crop. And I'm

17 just wondering if this topping that is done by

18 hand is actually really practical. Are these

19 people going out into 40- or 100-acre fields? 

20 You know if you are growing corn and things like

21 that, you are not going out and individually

22 silking each ear of corn like a lot of people
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1 used to do.

2 And then I had a question on the

3 alternatives. Also you said that soybean oil or

4 mineral oil, which actually mineral oil couldn't

5 be applied to organic crops, but soybean oil

6 could be applied to also be an alternative. Is

7 that effective? Do you know anything?

8 MS. OAKLEY: I'll let Jesse answer

9 that because he is the lead.

10 DR. THICKE: Jesse?

11 MR. BUIE: I mean it's effective. I

12 guess the issue is what the petition was

13 requesting. 

14 MS. SWAFFAR: Are they easier?

15 MR. BUIE: I don't know.

16 DR. THICKE: Emily.

17 MS. OAKLEY: I do just want to say

18 that my knowledge is not vast but these farms

19 don't tend to be hundreds and hundreds of acres,

20 as you would see in corn. They are smaller scale

21 operations because they do require a lot of

22 labor. That's historically how they have
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1 operated.

2 So I did actually have a farmer

3 visiting me from North Carolina, and he is in a

4 very tobacco-heavy growing area, while we were

5 deliberating this. And he said that in many

6 cases, when he started farming organically 40

7 years ago, he was surrounded by conventional

8 tobacco fields but over the past several decades,

9 and especially more recently, in order to remain

10 viable, they are converting to organic

11 production.

12 So I think that there are a number of

13 smaller scale organic operations that are

14 happening in that area.

15 DR. THICKE: Scott.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Sorry. Can I do a point

17 of personal privilege?

18 We have been asked by the

19 transcriptionist to speak up because it's a

20 little hard hearing folks. So, please speak up,

21 folks, into your microphones.

22 Sorry, Scott.
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1 MR. RICE: Thank you.

2 I just had a point of clarification

3 for the motion that we have is to add fatty

4 alcohols for use in organic crop production. So

5 is it that potentially it doesn't -- where that

6 motion would not limit us to tobacco if

7 additional label use were added at a later date.

8 Is that my understanding?

9 DR. THICKE: That's correct.

10 MR. RICE: Okay.

11 DR. THICKE: Harriet.

12 MS. BEHAR: And I wouldn't vote for it

13 for just tobacco but the fact that it is for

14 other crop production, we did not review a TR for

15 use on tomatoes or any other crops because we

16 couldn't get a TR on something that is not

17 approved by the EPA. So that will be an

18 additional reason why I will not vote to put this

19 on the national list as an approves synthetic.

20 In my region, we have, in the past,

21 grown quite a bit of tobacco. It's not as high

22 quality as the tobacco grown in the south. It is
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1 used mostly for chewing tobacco. And it is kind

2 of a family crop. You know people would have

3 five, ten acres.

4 And Ashley, there still is quite a bit

5 of hand detasseling being done in my region.

6 DR. THICKE: Of corn you are talking

7 about.

8 MS. BEHAR: Of course, yes, of corn,

9 not of tobacco.

10 But they are removing -- I actually

11 helped on an organic farm at one point helping

12 remove suckers on tobacco. Hot job.

13 DR. THICKE: Steve.

14 MR. ELA: Well and to Ashley's point,

15 I mean I would love to have one of these

16 materials for thinning apples. I mean we

17 personally have 25 acres of apples that get

18 thinned by hand. And you know labor is obviously

19 not a disqualifier and corn is not the only thing

20 that has tremendous hand labor involved in the

21 crop production. So it is a fair playing field.

22 DR. THICKE: Emily.
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1 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, I echo that

2 sentiment on tomato sucker removal for pruning

3 tomatoes. It is a labor-intensive activity but

4 it is simply part of the job, in my view.

5 DR. THICKE: Okay. Is that about it

6 for discussion?

7 Oh, Dave.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: I guess at a time when

9 growth regulator synthetic, oxyntic growth

10 regulator, herbicides are rapidly increasing in

11 use in conventional agriculture, the thought of

12 us moving ahead with oxyntic growth regulation,

13 applications to plants in organic agriculture

14 seems counter to my sort of thinking about the

15 direction we should be going. So it's just

16 another thought.

17 2,4-D and Dicamba, for example, in

18 conventional agriculture, I'm not saying they are

19 the same but they are growth regulator compounds

20 that affect plants by altering their growth

21 behavior in a similar way that an alcohol affects

22 the growth of flowers on tobacco.
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1 DR. THICKE: Any other comments?

2 A-Dae.

3 MS. BRIONES: So I am just a little

4 confused. So there is no possibility that the

5 petitioner can repetition this substance for --

6 if they say for only the use in tobacco

7 production?

8 DR. THICKE: Emily, do you want to

9 answer that?

10 MS. OAKLEY: I'm going to answer that

11 indirectly, which is that whatever this motion

12 listing is is not irrelevant but it is only EPA

13 approved for tobacco and that would supersede any

14 decision that we would ever make.

15 So in essence, we are basically voting

16 for it for tobacco because that is its only EPA

17 approved use at the moment.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Does Dr. Brines want to

19 say anything?

20 DR. BRINES: Yes, I guess we are in

21 agreement with that. So if the petition were to

22 be re-petitioned with the only change being
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1 limiting the scope to tobacco, that would not be

2 new information because the program's decision

3 when it moved it forward was that that was the

4 only eligible use. So that is what is before the

5 Board right now.

6 They could make other changes to the

7 petition that could warrant reconsideration by

8 the Board but any petitioner has that as an

9 option.

10 DR. THICKE: Thank you for that

11 information.

12 Are we ready to vote? I think so,

13 Tom.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. So this

15 motion, the first -- there is two motion that

16 come to us. The first motion is a classification

17 motion. It is just to classify the substance as

18 synthetic or nonsynthetic. The motion is to

19 classify fatty alcohols, octanol and decanol mix

20 as petitioned as synthetic. The motion was made

21 by Jesse and seconded by Emily.

22 So a yes vote is to vote it as
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1 synthetic. A no vote is to say it is not

2 synthetic. The voting will start with Joelle.

3 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

4 MR. ELA: Yes.

5 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

6 MR. BUIE: Yes.

7 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

8 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

9 MR. RICE: Yes.

10 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

11 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

12 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

13 DR. THICKE: Yes.

14 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

15 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

16 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

17 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes yes.

18 Fifteen yes, zero no. The motion

19 passes.

20 The next motion is the listing motion.

21 So this is the motion whether or not to add it to

22 the National List. The motion comes to us as a
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1 motion to add fatty alcohols, octanol/decanol mix

2 as petitioned to 205.601(k)(2) for use in organic

3 crop production.

4 The motion was made by Jesse and

5 seconded by Emily. This is a motion to add. And

6 so a yes vote is to add it. A no vote is to not

7 list it.

8 The voting will start with Steve.

9 MR. ELA: No.

10 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

11 MR. BUIE: No.

12 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

13 DR. SEITZ: No.

14 MR. RICE: No.

15 MS. BAIRD: No.

16 MS. BEHAR: No.

17 MS. OAKLEY: No.

18 DR. THICKE: No.

19 MS. BRIONES: No.

20 MS. DE LIMA: No.

21 MR. BRADMAN: No.

22 MS. MOSSO: No.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

2 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

3 Do you want to do this or should we

4 break?

5 DR. THICKE: Do you think it is going

6 to take very long, Emily?

7 MS. OAKLEY: I was going to read a bit

8 about the petition and the proposal because there

9 is a broader issue here that I wanted to address. 

10 So it probably would be good to take a break, if

11 you want to take on now.

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay.

13 MS. OAKLEY: Not that I am going to

14 take like 20 minutes, but it's --

15 MR. CHAPMAN: Let's push forward.

16 MS. OAKLEY: Push forward? Okay, all

17 right.

18 DR. THICKE: So anaerobic digestate.

19 DR. BRINES: Okay, so I will proceed

20 with introducing the next and final petition that

21 came in from the Crops Subcommittee for this

22 meeting, which is the petition for anaerobic
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1 digestate.

2 This petition was received by the

3 program on April 5, 2016. It was petitioned by

4 Cenergy USA. The petition requests an amendment

5 to Section 205.203 of the regulations. So it is

6 not a standard petition which would request

7 addition, deletion, or amendment to 205.601.

8 In support of the review, the Crops

9 Subcommittee requested the evaluation by --

10 requested the development of a third party

11 Technical Evaluation Report and that report was

12 completed earlier this year.

13 Both the petition and the Technical

14 Report are available to the public on the NOP

15 website.

16 Thanks.

17 MS. OAKLEY: First I just wanted to

18 say that this was a really thorough petition and

19 it was very helpful for our deliberation. And

20 thank you to whoever wrote it.

21 We also added supplemental questions

22 to this Technical Review and those were answered
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1 for us.

2 So to begin, the petition requests

3 that anaerobic digestate fiber or digestate

4 produced without synthetic materials be allowed

5 for use in organic production exclusive of days6 to-harvest restrictions following application.

7 This petition, in particular, is for

8 anaerobic digestate derived from plant and animal

9 products in a two stage mixed plug-flow digester.

10 During the first stage of production,

11 the raw waste is mixed and heated to 101 degrees

12 Fahrenheit. Either reclaimed waste heat or a

13 boiler is used to maintain the digester

14 temperature for the growth of methanogenic

15 bacteria. Waste materials from the first state

16 gravity flow into the second stage of the vessel. 

17 Here, the methanogenic bacteria convert volatile

18 fatty acids and acetic acids produced in the

19 first stage of the anaerobic digestate vessel

20 into a biogas. Heat mixes the material in a

21 rotational motion, and it is held at 101 degrees

22 Fahrenheit for 21 days. Next, the waste flows
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1 into an effluent collection pit for additional

2 processing. The liquid and solids are separated

3 and a fiber of 30 to 35 percent solid material is

4 produced. And that's important because it

5 relates to our deliberations as to whether not

6 this meets a compost standard or raw animal

7 manure standard.

8 However, the petitioner states the

9 digestate is not raw manure or compost. It is

10 virtually pathogen-free and, therefore, should

11 not be restricted. They suggest that the two

12 stage mixed plug-flow anaerobic digestate

13 produces a material that is equivalent to OMRI's

14 classification of processed manure.

15 While this classification specifies a

16 minimum temperature of 150 degrees Fahrenheit for

17 at least one hour and a maximum moisture content

18 of 12 percent, the petitioner proposes that these

19 temperature, duration, and drying criteria are

20 unnecessary for pathogen kill when using their

21 digestion process.

22 And then the reason I am taking a
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1 little more time is that this is not just a

2 single petition kind of in a vacuum regarding

3 anaerobic digestate. There is a bit more history

4 to it.

5 In addition to anaerobic digestate,

6 other manufactures employ heat without drying or

7 a moisture reduction process without heating to

8 treat manure. NOP 5006 requests that the CS also

9 evaluate these treatment processes to determine

10 if they should be allowed without a pre-harvest

11 interval.

12 Following the adoption of the Food

13 Modernization Safety Act, the FDA undertook a

14 risk assessment of produce grown with manure. 

15 The CS is awaiting the outcome of the FDA's

16 assessment and will then determine how to

17 evaluate these other manure treatment methods as

18 a separate work agenda item in the future.

19 So there was public comment requesting

20 that we look at other materials and that we

21 follow up on this memo. But I just want assert

22 we claim we will be waiting for the FDA before we
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1 determine if and how to proceed with this

2 additional matter of either a liquid anaerobic

3 digestate, other feedstocks, et cetera.

4 Our primary concern with this material

5 was that the Technical Review is very clear that

6 there are no guarantees of pathogen elimination

7 and, in fact, they can remain. And so when we

8 discussed this and looked at it for compatibility

9 under the category of adverse impacts, I am going

10 to quote from the TR: The principal human health

11 concern from anaerobic digestate is foodborne

12 pathogens. Several peer-reviewed papers document

13 that foodborne pathogens commonly survive the

14 anaerobic digestion process. IN particular,

15 spore-forming pathogens are the most likely to

16 remain viable after the anaerobic digestion

17 process.

18 Several pathogens are able to survive

19 or at least remain viable after anaerobic

20 digestate that would be unlikely to survive

21 aerobic composting.

22 Again, from the TR, the petition
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1 claims that the pathogen reduction in plant and

2 animal materials properly processed in a two

3 stage mixed plug-flow anaerobic digester produced

4 an equivalent heating process to aerobic

5 composting, as specified in the NOP regulations

6 at 205.203(c)(2).

7 Laboratory analyses were included in

8 the petition but the sampling methodology was not

9 described. The results were not peer-reviewed. 

10 While anaerobic digestate is not raw manure, it

11 is not aerobically composted. The temperature

12 reported in the petition is 101 degrees

13 Fahrenheit, as I mentioned earlier. This is in

14 the mesophilic range and below the temperature of

15 131 degrees Fahrenheit specified in the NOP

16 regulations for composting manure.

17 In the production of anaerobic

18 digestate from sewage sludge, the EPA requires

19 that the material go through aerobic composting

20 under the same conditions stipulated in

21 205.203(c)(2), a process called further reducing

22 pathogens. Aerobic composting of the digestate
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1 is a process to significantly reduce pathogens,

2 which doesn't occur in anaerobic digestate.

3 In terms of alternatives and

4 compatibility, organic producers employ a wide

5 range of practices to foster soil, health, and

6 fertility, including cover cropping,

7 incorporating crop residue, crop rotation, and

8 conservation no-tillage techniques. There are

9 numerous alternative materials to digestate

10 fiber.

11 Anaerobic digestate may currently be

12 used in organic production as an ingredient in

13 compost or as a manure, subject to the required

14 pre-harvest intervals required of raw manures in

15 205.203.

16 Because of the potential for negative

17 effects on human health through foodborne

18 pathogens, the unproven safety of anaerobic

19 digestate fiber and the many alternative

20 practices and materials already in use in organic

21 production, this substance, as petitioned,

22 without pre-harvest application intervals was
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1 deemed not compatible with a system of

2 sustainable agriculture.

3 And I wanted to not turn the spotlight

4 on Joelle, but if you would like to elaborate

5 further as a microbiologist, I would love to hear

6 your thoughts.

7 MS. MOSSO: Sure. So obviously a lot

8 of deliberation happened in regards to anaerobic

9 digestate within the Crops Subcommittee. I think

10 of import is that in the Technical Review, it was

11 rather apparent, in fact actually labeled, that

12 it would be at a mesophilic range that would not

13 be sufficient to take care of what we know to be

14 human pathogens of concern when it comes to

15 agricultural production.

16 Additionally, I do think it is of note

17 that it is more of a question of timing. As

18 Emily said, this is not a prohibited material. 

19 It is in regards to the application time from

20 when you can apply it to when you can harvest the

21 crop. As such, it can certainly still be used,

22 assuming it meets all other conditions of organic
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1 production.

2 What I would like to emphasize is that

3 this material is probably the first of many or

4 not even maybe the first, where NOSB is being

5 asked to probably make decisions that are not

6 within our purview or expertise. Being a

7 civilian board, I don't think it would be right

8 for the NOSB to make a judgment call on the food

9 safety impact that a potential material may have.

10 And as such, future petitions that may

11 be in regards to materials that have sensitive

12 natures like this, should come in complement with

13 the appropriate authority's approval.

14 In this case, had anaerobic digestate

15 come with an EPA letter or an FDA letter that

16 said it had sufficiently addressed food safety

17 concerns, I think the NOSB would have been able

18 to make a more deliberate decision for organic

19 production instead of the onus being put on the

20 NOSB to make a food safety decision.

21 MS. OAKLEY: Are there other

22 discussion -- I mean, I guess Francis, do you
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1 want to call on people?

2 Okay, Dan.

3 DR. SEITZ: Apart from food safety,

4 I'm just curious to know where is the product

5 obtained from that companies use to make the

6 digestate.

7 MS. OAKLEY: Because of the large

8 quantities of manure that are required when it's

9 a manure feedstock, that would typically be a

10 confined animal feeding operation. But that is

11 not necessarily a criteria that we can look at

12 because there are composts and raw manure

13 applications that take place using manure from

14 those sources as well.

15 So concerns about that are legitimate

16 but not necessarily ones we can use in this

17 deliberation.

18 Harriet?

19 MS. BEHAR: So in our regulation we do

20 have that if a product is a manure, it needs to

21 go through a composting process, which we have a

22 very detailed process of time and temperature
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1 before it can be applied without the interval of

2 90 or 120 days.

3 And so since this has some manure in

4 it, I believe that we do have in our regulation

5 that it doesn't meet because it doesn't have the

6 time and the temperature. So it is not

7 necessarily a pathogen-based but it really

8 doesn't meet our regulation.

9 But on the other side, I believe there

10 was at least one public comment, that there was

11 an anaerobic digestate that was 100 percent plant

12 based. Will you address that?

13 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, there was. 

14 Stahlbush Island Farms -- I'm not supposed to

15 list the person -- has a food processing

16 anaerobic digestate on their farm. It is a

17 hydraulic digester which was not covered in this

18 TR, which they pointed out in their comments and

19 that they want us to evaluate anaerobic digestate

20 processes and products individually.

21 Joelle, I don't know if you want to

22 speak to that in terms of the pathogenic concern.
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1 MS. MOSSO: Sure. I mean plant-based

2 or manure-based, you still are dealing with food

3 safety concerns. That's why we see outbreaks

4 associated with non-animal based product.

5 So certainly listeria, salmonella,

6 Campylobacter, these are all organisms that are

7 known to have presence in plant material. So I

8 don't think that that is a substantiation as to

9 why it should be handled differently. But

10 certainly it is still allowed to be used in

11 organics. It's just still subject to the

12 application intervals.

13 And again, reiterating is that if it

14 came in complement with letters that said it

15 could be appropriate to be used from a food

16 safety concern, from the EPA, or FDA, or

17 appropriate body, I think that would be a very

18 different discussion.

19 I would also like to add is that

20 currently FSMA and the FDA are undergoing review

21 of the composting regulation that is in the

22 National Organic Program regulations.
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1 So I think it just reiterates the

2 point that it is not within our purview or

3 expertise as a civilian board to be justifying

4 what is food safe and not food safe for our

5 program.

6 MS. OAKLEY: I'm going to follow up

7 and then Harriet.

8 There were a number of public comments

9 who were in support of our proposal for the

10 reasons stated there. As I said earlier there

11 were some public commenters who wanted us to look

12 at these individually but, as Joelle has stated,

13 I think that while that is beyond our purview as

14 to whether or not they petitioned the NOP, we are

15 going to be coming back to the same issues again

16 and again because there is no conclusive evidence

17 to show us that they are in fact safe.

18 Harriet.

19 MS. BEHAR: So the NOP also has a

20 guidance document on the use of processed manure,

21 which ties it to temperature and also to testing. 

22 So that could be something else that is discussed
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1 or added to where there is a testing on E. coli

2 and salmonella for processed, heated manure. And

3 then that manure can be applied like compost up

4 until day of harvest.

5 MS. OAKLEY: Joelle.

6 MS. MOSSO: Just a quick comment on

7 testing. Testing in isolation is a verification

8 method of a process. Associated with a

9 validation, it can be reflective of something

10 being safe.

11 So again, I am just reiterating is

12 that with a process authority letter or with a

13 FDA letter, that would be appropriate. Testing

14 would be a sufficient way to prove food safety. 

15 In absence of that it is simply a verification

16 method, just as it is in producing of food or of

17 agricultural crop.

18 MS. OAKLEY: Harriet?

19 MS. BEHAR: I was just trying to find

20 other places where we've tried to deal with this,

21 this kind of issue. So we have some tools in the

22 toolbox for looking at it and precedent for
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1 making sure that the product that is being placed

2 up until day of harvest is not going to

3 contaminate the food with pathogens.

4 And actually that is a big deal in

5 many places because sometimes organic can be seen

6 negatively in the press. All they can use is

7 manure and they don't have to say well wait a

8 minute, we have a rule for manure. It can't be

9 put on the crop without an interval and that we

10 are looking at that. Whereas, in conventional

11 agriculture, there is no oversight there on the

12 use of manure.

13 So I think we do have something that

14 we are working with, even if it is not part of

15 the FDA -- you know we are not under FDA.

16 MS. OAKLEY: Sue -- and I did get the

17 roll the finger look from Tom to hurry up

18 conversation.

19 MS. BAIRD: Well, I was looking at the

20 rule and it does say the producer must manage

21 plant and animal materials that would not

22 contaminate through any kind of prohibited
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1 substance or residues or pathogenic organisms.

2 So even though the argument might be

3 that there would be anaerobic digests that would

4 be from plant materials, they would still have to

5 verify there is no pathogenic organisms.

6 And then of course -- I've lost it. I

7 lost it. Yes, three says un-composted plant

8 materials. So again, even though it could be

9 plant materials, it definitely states that it has

10 to be able to prove to not have pathogenic

11 organisms in the rule itself.

12 MS. OAKLEY: Tom, do you want us to

13 wrap up the conversation?

14 DR. THICKE: I just want to thank you

15 all for a good discussion here and Emily for a

16 good, thorough review.

17 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you to the

18 Technical Review. That was awesome.

19 Any other conversation, discussion

20 before we vote? Okay, Tom.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay, so the first

22 motion before us is a classification motion. The
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1 motion is to classify anaerobic digestate

2 produced from nonsynthetic feedstocks as

3 nonsynthetic.

4 The motion was made by Emily and

5 seconded by Harriet. So this is, again, just to

6 determine whether the material is synthetic or

7 not synthetic. This motion is to determine it as

8 nonsynthetic as listed here. A yes vote is to

9 confirm that. A note vote is to reject that.

10 The voting starts with Dave.

11 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

12 MR. BUIE: Yes.

13 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

14 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

15 MR. RICE: Yes.

16 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

17 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

18 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

19 DR. THICKE: Yes.

20 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

21 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

22 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.
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1 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

2 MR. ELA: Yes.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes yes.

4 Fifteen yes, zero no. The motion

5 passes.

6 The next motion, which disappeared

7 from the sheet because we're on copper sulfate

8 now.

9 The next motion is to amend Section

10 205.203(c) Soil fertility and crop nutrient

11 management practice standard, section (1) to add

12 the words or undergo an anaerobic digestion

13 process to the raw materials section; and to add

14 section (4) which reads: Anaerobic digestion

15 products that have been processed to reduce

16 pathogens.

17 So, in essence, this motion is to

18 allow anaerobic digestate without the withholding

19 period. So a yes vote is to approve that; a no

20 vote is to fail that.

21 Can someone scroll to the motion? The

22 motion was made by Emily and seconded by Steve. 
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1 And the voting will start with Jesse.

2 MR. BUIE: No.

3 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

4 DR. SEITZ: No.

5 MR. RICE: No.

6 MS. BAIRD: No.

7 MS. BEHAR: No.

8 MS. OAKLEY: No.

9 DR. THICKE: No.

10 MS. BRIONES: No.

11 MS. DE LIMA: No.

12 MR. BRADMAN: No.

13 MS. MOSSO: No.

14 MR. ELA: No.

15 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

17 Zero yes, 15 no. The motion fails.

18 All right, it is 4:15. We are going

19 to take a ten-minute break. So be back at 4:25

20 sharply and we will start on our other agenda

21 items.

22 As you notice, we are running
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1 significantly behind schedule. So we will most

2 likely be delaying the CACS Subcommittee agenda

3 to tomorrow. It will be the first item on the

4 agenda tomorrow and we will start back up after

5 the break with Crops again.

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

7 went off the record at 4:15 p.m. and resumed at

8 4:29 p.m.)

9 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. If Board

10 members can return to their seats, we will get

11 started. We have a quorum, so we'll come back

12 into order and, Francis, back to you.

13 DR. THICKE: Okay. We're going to

14 begin with -- Emily has a little loose end to

15 wrap up in the last one.

16 MS. OAKLEY: Are you guys going to be

17 quiet out there?

18 MR. CHAPMAN: If members of the public

19 could please take their conversations outside,

20 that would be greatly appreciated. If members of

21 the public could please take their conversations

22 outside, that would be appreciated. Thank you.
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1 Emily?

2 MS. OAKLEY: Yes. I just wanted to

3 follow up because I meant to answer something

4 with Dan's point regarding the manure feedstock

5 for anaerobic digesting and whether it might come

6 from CAFOs. I also wanted to clarify that, as I

7 said, that can be of a concern and is of a

8 concern to me. And we do have the contaminated

9 inputs as something that we are looking at on the

10 work agenda. 

11 So that's all I wanted to say. Thank

12 you.

13 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Emily. So

14 next up we have strengthening organic seed

15 guidance, and Harriet is the lead.

16 MS. BEHAR: Well, first, I want to say

17 thank you to everyone that gave comments. There

18 were numerous certifiers, including the

19 Accredited Certifier Association, ACA. Numerous

20 public interest groups, including NOC, OTA, and

21 the Organic Seed Alliance, and numerous farmers

22 that gave thoughtful and detailed comments; areas
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1 where improvements were requested, including the

2 wording around trialing varieties to determine if

3 they are of equivalent variety, to make sure that

4 the trialing was not mandatory but the

5 documentation of the trialing would be mandatory

6 if it were to be done.

7 Many did not like the additional

8 recordkeeping to track the search for organic

9 seed for each specific nonorganic seed used on

10 the farm. Many also commented that clarity or

11 examples should be provided for what is an

12 improvement for year-to-year on the use of

13 organic seed. Increased use of seed suppliers,

14 more varieties of organic seed used, more acres

15 planted with organic seed, et cetera, were

16 suggested.

17 Many also did not feel that reaching

18 full compliance with use of 100 percent organic

19 seed was realistic and felt it could lessen

20 innovation and production on organic farms. The

21 attention of this requirement was not to ignore

22 the allowance for use of nonorganic seed when a
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1 seed of the requested or required quality,

2 quantity, or variety was not available, including

3 regionally adapted seeds, which was also brought

4 up. So perhaps we do need to do some

5 wordsmithing for more clarity.

6 Some also did not like the increased

7 number of sources used for searching for organic

8 seed from three to five. And for a variety of

9 reasons, although others supported this change,

10 improvements were suggested by numerous

11 commenters. Many comments were also received

12 concerning the extra scrutiny required of what

13 seed is at risk of genetic contamination, would

14 testing be required, who would pay, and perhaps

15 we should wait for the seed purity proposal to be

16 completed before we address this issue in this

17 strengthening seed guidance document.

18 There was also questions about, would

19 there be an allowed tolerance level for GMO

20 presence. And just so everyone would know, the

21 Crops Subcommittee is now referring to seed

22 purity instead as genetic integrity because we
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1 felt that that was really speaking more to the

2 issue.

3 And for that reason, we could talk --

4 but the Crops Subcommittee thought that there

5 were enough substantive comments that we perhaps

6 should take it back to subcommittee and not vote

7 on this document today.

8 DR. THICKE: Are you making that a

9 motion, to refer it?

10 MS. OAKLEY: I make the motion to send

11 it back to subcommittee. And this time I mean

12 it.

13 (Laughter.)

14 DR. THICKE: I'll second it. Any

15 discussion on that?

16 MR. CHAPMAN: Is there a second?

17 DR. THICKE: I did.

18 MR. CHAPMAN: Sorry. Francis. Okay.

19 Steve?

20 MR. ELA: I would be in favor of

21 sending it back. I think from what I've read

22 we've got 95 percent of the document, but there
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1 are some -- this is a really important topic, and

2 I would like to see us get it right and

3 consistent with what certifiers and farmers want. 

4 And I think there is more that -- the

5 little changes, while being small, are actually

6 critical and we need to look at them and give a

7 chance for more comment. So I would be in favor

8 of sending it back and tweaking it just a little

9 bit more.

10 DR. THICKE: Ashley?

11 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes. I think this is

12 really one of the most critical documents that

13 has come -- well, besides the other big one that

14 -- one of the most critical documents affecting

15 all sides of producers. And, you know, nothing

16 makes me madder than showing up and doing a farm

17 inspection and seeing them try to get by with a

18 halfway-done seed search. And, you know, I think

19 if we can strengthen this, it only makes the

20 whole supply chain stronger. So --

21 DR. THICKE: Sue?

22 MS. BAIRD: Yes, I agree with that. I
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1 do a lot of inspections in my 22 years of

2 inspections, and I cringe a lot of times with the

3 lack of -- the appearance of lack of effort to

4 use organic seed, so I applaud the efforts.

5 As I did during the discussion, I am a

6 little concerned about four-one-three, which

7 points out contamination from non-GMO

8 consideration, that we could use -- non-organic

9 seed can be used if organic seeds cannot be

10 sourced because of GMO contamination.

11 I think that that portrays a bad

12 impression that our organic seeds would be

13 contaminated and the nonorganic seeds might not

14 be contaminated. I would like to have a little

15 further discussion on that particular phrase

16 within this document.

17 DR. THICKE: Unfortunately, that may

18 be the case sometimes.

19 MS. BAIRD: Yes. That's possible, but

20 I just -- it bothers me.

21 DR. THICKE: Anybody else? I guess

22 we're ready to vote.
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1 MR. CHAPMAN: All right. We'll move

2 to a vote. The motion is to refer this proposal

3 back to subcommittee. This is not a motion to

4 conduct business, and so it follows Robert's

5 Rules of Order, which would be a simple majority,

6 so eight votes. 

7 The motion was made by Harriet and

8 seconded by Francis, and the voting will start

9 with Ashley. A yes vote is to send it back to

10 subcommittee.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

12 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

13 MR. RICE: Yes.

14 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

15 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

16 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

17 DR. THICKE: Yes.

18 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

19 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

20 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

21 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

22 MR. ELA: Yes.
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

2 MR. BUIE: Yes.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: The Chair votes yes. 

4 Fifteen yes, zero no; the motion passes. And I

5 think that's it for the day. Is that right,

6 Francis?

7 (Laughter.)

8 DR. THICKE: One little easy one left.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Oh, okay. Back to you,

10 then.

11 DR. THICKE: Okay. Michelle, did you

12 have the PowerPoint for that?

13 Okay. Next up is the proposal,

14 hydroponics and container growing. And we have

15 in this -- the main part of the proposal is the

16 majority view, and then we also have a minority

17 view. So what we're planning to do is I'm going

18 to summarize the majority view, Joelle will

19 summarize the minority view, and Harriet will

20 summarize comments, and then we're going to have

21 a round robin where everybody can -- we'll go

22 around in a circle. 
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1 Everybody can have a few minutes to

2 express their opinion on what we have been

3 talking about, and then after that we can follow

4 it up with further discussion. 

5 So we have our slides here. As I

6 mentioned, we have a minority and a majority, and

7 I think I have that -- yes, here we go. It

8 works.

9 So I wanted to review a little bit of

10 the history. 2010 NOSB recommendation, people

11 have quoted that extensively. It was called

12 Production Standards for Terrestrial Plants in

13 Containers and Enclosures (Greenhouses). That is

14 what was -- kind of started this process. And

15 based on that, the NOP told us we needed more

16 refinement of that.

17 So the next step that came up is in

18 the fall of 2016, the Crops Subcommittee put

19 forth a proposal on hydroponics, aquaponics, and

20 bioponics, and after we discussed it at the

21 meeting we have sent it back for further

22 consideration to the committee. 
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1 And then in the spring we came forward

2 with a discussion document. It's not often we go

3 from a proposal to a discussion document, but we

4 went kind of backwards there. And now we are

5 bringing forward the proposal based upon all of

6 these discussions. And part of that process, the

7 NOP asked -- put together a Hydroponic and

8 Aquaponic Task Force, which reported in July of

9 2016. 

10 And it was -- as you heard, it was

11 contentious, and it split up basically into two

12 committees, and a third one on labeling. But the

13 one committee, the quote "pro soils," was --

14 called themselves the 2010 Recommendations

15 Subcommittee, and the other one called themselves

16 the Hydroponic and Aquaponic Subcommittee. And

17 then, again, there was the Alternative Labeling

18 Subcommittee.

19 And the NOP told the NOSB, "Take this

20 task force and report the report to make a

21 recommendation to AMS. Based upon your

22 recommendation, AMS will take the necessary steps
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1 to establish clear standards for these production

2 systems. The public will be invited to provide

3 comments during your deliberations as well as

4 when AMS develops guidance or initiates

5 rulemaking on this issue."

6 So the first committee, then, of that

7 task force had several I'm calling here

8 suggestions. Apparently, they were technically

9 recommendations, but they were de facto

10 recommendations of the subcommittee. And the

11 first one was that systems of crop production

12 that eliminate soil from the system, such as

13 hydroponics, cannot be considered as acceptable

14 farming practices. So their first stance was

15 that all organic farming should be in the soil,

16 without containers. The same as -- that's

17 actually the same wording as came from the 2010

18 NOSB recommendation.

19 They said if you cannot -- oh, I guess

20 I got ahead of myself. To limit organic

21 certification to what is grown in the ground,

22 with the exception of transplants, ornamentals,
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1 and herbs.

2 If containers are allowed, kind of

3 their backup, limitation of no more than

4 50 percent of the required fertility being added

5 after planting, and no more than 20 percent to be

6 added as a liquid fertilizer after planting. For

7 perennials, these limitations should be on an

8 annual basis.

9 Okay. And then there was the report

10 of the Hydroponic and Aquaponic Subcommittee of

11 the task force, and they didn't have a summary. 

12 I took everything on the first slide from the

13 summary of the other committee. This one here, I

14 pulled out what I could see as their

15 representation of their -- kind of the essence of

16 what they were saying, that organic hydroponic

17 systems, a form of bioponics, contains

18 substantial soil biology, including large numbers

19 of bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and nematodes found

20 in soil.

21 Secondly, they said farming is by

22 nature site-specific, and the grower must be able
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1 to uniquely adapt to his/her environmental

2 constraints/resources. And then I kind of

3 summarized it in the last bullet that they were

4 advocating for hydroponic systems with adequate

5 biology should be allowed to be certified

6 organic.

7 So the Crops Subcommittee, with a lot

8 of discussion, came up with -- well, with several

9 iterations, as you saw, proposals and discussion

10 documents. What we came up in this proposal is,

11 first of all, aeroponics defined as a variation

12 of hydroponic plant production in which plant

13 roots are suspended in air and misted with

14 nutrient solution.

15 And the motion in this proposal is to

16 prohibit aeroponic production systems from

17 organic certification, which we will revisit of

18 course when it is time to vote.

19 Aquaponics, defined as a recirculating

20 hydroponic plant production system in which

21 plants are grown in nutrients originating from

22 aquatic animal water waste, which may include the
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1 use of bacteria to improve the availability of

2 these nutrients to the plants.

3 The plants improve the water quality

4 by using the nutrients and the water is then

5 recirculated back to the aquatic animals. 

6 And in the proposal, the majority

7 view, we have a motion. I've got to look here. 

8 I can't see it. It's too little. Motion to

9 prohibit aquaponic production systems from

10 organic certification.

11 And then we get to a little more

12 contentious area, and container production. We

13 kind of defined it in the motion, what we thought

14 was acceptable or what we would recommend. 

15 Motion that for container production be certified

16 organic, a limit of 20 percent of the plant's

17 nitrogen requirement can be supplied by liquid

18 feeding, and a limit of 50 percent of the plant's

19 nitrogen requirement can be added to the

20 container after the crop has been planted.

21 For perennials, the nitrogen feeding

22 limit is calculated on an annual basis. 
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1 Transplants, ornamentals, herbs, sprouts, fodder,

2 and aquatic plants are exempted from these

3 requirements. So you can see here, compared to

4 the task force recommendation, we focused on

5 nitrogen. They said basically all nutrients, 20

6 percent liquid feeding of all nutrients, 50

7 percent of all nutrients applied before the

8 plants are -- the crops are planted.

9 The reason we went to just nitrogen is

10 that nitrogen is really an indication I think of

11 the way the system is operating. Nitrogen is

12 normally one of the hardest elements to make --

13 nutrients to make work in your system. And if

14 you can make nitrogen work, you probably can make

15 all of the other nutrient cycle as well.

16 Furthermore, it is easier under just

17 one element that you have to monitor, easier for

18 monitoring, easier for inspectors and everything

19 like that.

20 And, let's see, okay. So how do you

21 calculate that? People have asked. Well, you

22 have this requirement for 20 percent of the
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1 plant's nitrogen requirement being supplied by

2 liquid feeding, and 50 percent nitrogen

3 requirement can be added after the crop is

4 planted. And basically if you search around the

5 internet -- and this is a common reference, the

6 Knott's Handbook for Vegetable Growers -- you can

7 find information, based on research, on what the

8 requirements are of various crops for various

9 nutrients.

10 For example, this one here has a table

11 on the accumulation of nutrients by vegetable

12 crops for tomatoes. It is based on yield, a

13 yield of 30-ton per acre. The fruit will

14 accumulate 100 pounds per acre of nitrogen. The

15 vines will accumulate 80 pounds, and the total is

16 180. 

17 So I see this as quite similar to the

18 grazing requirement. As a dairy farmer, I have

19 to prove that I am providing over 30 percent of

20 my forage, my dry matter intake for the cows from

21 pasture. And, of course, I get up to about 80

22 percent, so it's not a problem for me. 
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1 But basically the way you do it is you

2 take some assumptions like, what is the average

3 weight of your cow? And for me it's about 1,000

4 pounds for a jersey. And the dry matter intake

5 is about three percent, so that's 30 pounds of

6 dry matter a day. And then I subtract out how

7 much grain they would get and how much hay they

8 might eat, and the rest is grass. 

9 And so this is very similar. We have

10 the nutrient requirement, the nitrogen

11 requirement for a crop, and so we can just

12 basically take 20 and 50 percent of that and

13 those are what we use. And there are other

14 sources of this information. Many universities

15 put out data on nitrogen uptake or nutrient

16 uptakes of crops.

17 So we had a lot of objections, and the

18 reason I'm going to put this up is that we have

19 objections by some hydroponic growers that, well

20 you can't do that. You can't put all of that on

21 at one time, or you're going to have a problem. 

22 You're going to -- it's going to be toxic to the
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1 plant or you're going to lose it all to leaching.

2 And one of the growers that did that

3 -- somebody sent me some slides of it, and it's

4 really an elegant system here. If you look at

5 it, you can see this is what the root ball is,

6 and this is what the substrate is. And so you

7 can see you can't put too many pounds of nitrogen

8 in there in the beginning of the year.

9 So you can see that this system could

10 not work in that way. And if you look at a

11 system like this that's bigger, larger

12 containers, but they also will tell us that it

13 can't work, and the reason being is that -- what

14 is being used for a substrate, because this is

15 what -- as we heard, is the common substrate,

16 coconut coir. 

17 And you can imagine this very porous

18 material. It makes a great rooting medium, but

19 if you pour in so much nitrogen it is going to be

20 very available and it is going to leach away, and

21 so on. 

22 Now, if you compare that to a soil,
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1 what is the difference? Some are indicating

2 maybe there is no difference. But if you look at

3 a soil and look at it from this perspective. 

4 This is a pie graph of what is in a soil, and

5 often we have heard about the biological activity

6 in the soil.

7 If you look at this pie graph of the

8 total biomass of the organic matter in the soil,

9 just a small portion is the living organisms, the

10 fungi, the bacteria, protozoa, and so on. And

11 then there is a whole range of different kinds of

12 material in there, from very fresh residue that

13 will break down quickly, to material that has

14 been decomposing and some of it is getting more

15 and more recalcitrant or more -- less resistant

16 to breakdown. 

17 And then you have the humus, which is

18 -- it still does break down, but it's more

19 resistant. And so there is the whole range of

20 materials. Some will break down and release

21 nitrogen quickly, some more slowly, some more

22 slowly and more slowly. So that way -- that's
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1 the way soil works, of course, and it can release

2 enough nutrients for a whole season.

3 And if we take this a step further and

4 look at a pie chart of the whole soil, that whole

5 last pie chart fits in this little sliver here,

6 organic matter, which can be -- five percent is

7 pretty good. One to five or maybe more is a

8 small portion of that whole soil, and the mineral

9 matter comprises quite a big fraction. And the

10 organic matter is intertwined intimately with

11 that soil mineral fraction. And so that's all

12 the habitat for those microorganisms. 

13 And if we -- this is some data from

14 Iowa State University -- is that a good soil will

15 have like 10,000 pounds per acre of nitrogen in

16 the organic pool. That is a pretty -- to think

17 about that, compared to a pot with coir in it,

18 that is a whole different system.

19 And what happens -- this was -- this

20 slide was put together by some friends at Iowa

21 State for water quality. This is below -- the 

22 brown part below -- this is below ground, the
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1 corn plant there. And this shows how much

2 nitrate leaches out of the system, but ignore

3 that.

4 But the thing that you can look at is

5 that there is constant biological cycling. And

6 the problem here with, of course, corn is that it

7 only has live roots in the soil for about five

8 months of the year. Most of the year there are

9 no live roots, so the nitrate will escape. But

10 if you think of a plant with roots year-round or

11 for the full duration, it cycles back and forth. 

12 This organic matter is constantly mineralizing

13 nitrate out of the system to mineral form, and it

14 is putting some back into the organic form. It

15 is going around and around, and the plant is

16 intimately connected with that process.

17 And so you can see how if you have a

18 soil or a compost that has that ability to

19 deliver nutrients over a long time, it has to be

20 a whole different system than an artificial kind

21 of system like coir. 

22 So I'm going to -- this is the
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1 hydroponic motion. It is very closely related to

2 the motion for containers. The motion is that

3 any container production system that does not

4 meet the standard of a limit of 20 percent of the

5 plant's nitrogen requirement being supplied by

6 liquid feeding, and a limit of 50 percent of the

7 plant's nitrogen requirement being added to the

8 container after the crop has been planted, is

9 defined as hydroponic and should not be allowed

10 to be certified organic.

11 For perennials, the nitrogen feeding

12 limit is calculated on an annual basis. 

13 Transplants, ornamentals, herbs, sprouts, fodder,

14 and aquatic plants are exempted from these

15 requirements.

16 I think I'm going to stop right there. 

17 I don't know if anybody has any burning

18 questions. Otherwise, we can go on to the

19 minority report.

20 MS. MOSSO: Just waiting for the

21 slides. Okay. Since I don't have a clicker,

22 I'll just -- oh, perfect. 
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1 Okay. So, first, I'd like to thank

2 everybody for the opportunity to present the

3 minority view to the public as well as to the

4 board. I also wanted to call out on behalf of

5 all of the people who contributed to the minority

6 report that we had a very respectful discussion

7 amongst the board, and I think we would

8 appreciate it and hope to have that same sort of

9 discussion in our community.

10 The organic community is one community

11 and it is with our inclusiveness over these last

12 many years that we have led to compromise and

13 have generated the robust market that we see

14 today. 

15 I would also like to say both Francis'

16 and my summary of the minority view and the

17 majority view are over kind of top level, so

18 please do take the time to read them in their

19 entirety.

20 The minority view is a reflection of

21 the diversity of the NOSB board and a subset of

22 the board that has put forth the minority view. 
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1 It is also a reflection of the organic community

2 and the different opinions that we see with our

3 own community or diversity within our own

4 community.

5 This has been evident from the NOP

6 comments regarding the allowance of hydroponic

7 that we have seen in discussion since as early as

8 2002, 2004, 2009, 2014, and 2016. In addition,

9 as we have seen today in this meeting and prior

10 meetings, we have obviously seen a distribution

11 of public comments and support, as well as NOSB

12 discussion of support, so with some members being

13 for and some being against.

14 In addition, pro-hydroponic proponents

15 within the hydroponic task force, obviously, that

16 report, as has been discussed previously, is a

17 bifurcated report that has support on both sides. 

18 Hydroponic and container systems are members that

19 are already in our community. I think that's

20 important to emphasize, is that we are not asking

21 for the inclusion of those who have been excluded

22 but the exclusion of those who have been
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1 included.

2 This has brought more organic

3 consumers to the organic table and has helped us

4 grow the market to where it stands today. And

5 amongst those organic producers, just as we see

6 in in-soil or in any other producers, there is a

7 continuum of methods and, importantly, consumers

8 buy organic for numerous reasons.

9 Organic is equally important to all of

10 them who buy organic products, and the impetus as

11 to why they buy them is also important. Not to

12 say one is more important than the other. 

13 Coexistence of soil and non-soil-based systems is

14 possible, and the minority view would like to

15 emphasize that supporting non-soil-based systems

16 is not a mutually exclusive decision. 

17 As such, we would hope and respect

18 that the community would also hope and respect in

19 that kind of regard. These are not to kick out

20 one or the other, although sometimes it may feel

21 like that way.

22 Just as we see a spectrum of soil-
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1 based systems, we also see a spectrum of

2 alternative methods. And we will go to the next

3 slide.

4 As Francis noted, the NOP recently

5 asked for further clarification on the 2010 NOSB

6 recommendation entitled Production Standards for

7 Terrestrial Plants in Containers and Enclosures

8 to be able to implement the regulation in regards

9 to hydroponic and container systems.

10 This minority view is a redlined,

11 further clarified version of the 2010 NOSB

12 recommendation. In order to produce this, the

13 minority view group, based upon these

14 recommendations or minority opinions that enforce

15 responsible stewardship practices, address

16 sustainability and conservation of resources,

17 allow for innovation and production systems,

18 which will ultimately increase access to organic

19 food, be regulated and defined by a verifiable

20 standard addressing the biological/ecological

21 cycles in site-specific regions.

22 This is building upon the foundation
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1 left by prior NOSB members and is an attempt to

2 further elucidate the needs of the NOP and the

3 organic community to reflect not just current

4 producers but current and future consumers that

5 will propagate our market even more in the

6 future. It is with this consideration that the

7 minority view has crafted additional language.

8 Non-soil-based systems -- in

9 discussion, the minority view agreed upon that

10 they can address unique and growing agronomic

11 challenges that we have seen in public comment as

12 well as just evident in day-to-day operations,

13 some of which being drought. Coming from

14 California, that is something we struggle with

15 significantly. 

16 Input minimization, fertilizers,

17 pesticides, and herbicides, further reducing the

18 reliance on inputs that are needed to travel far

19 distances in some cases to production sites; food

20 safety concerns, which may or may not be unique,

21 or eliminated in some cases in these unique

22 systems; and, importantly, the ability to address
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1 arable land accessibility with special callouts

2 to urban areas and areas of non-arable soil,

3 further allowing for access to organic foods for

4 more in our community.

5 In the 2010 recommendation that

6 allowed compost to be utilized in place of soil

7 because it was deemed equivalent to soil. The

8 foundation of this equivalency was stated as

9 follows. The foundational principle of organic

10 farming is the practice of maintaining and

11 nurturing soil health, so as to foster the

12 proliferation of proper soil biology with their

13 accompanying ecologies. Since all soil-dwelling

14 organisms, such as earthworms, protozoa, fungi,

15 bacteria, actinomyocetes can thrive in a properly

16 composted -- properly designed, compost-based

17 growing media producing the beneficial symbiotic

18 ecological relationships found in soil. Such

19 growing media should be rightfully considered

20 soil.

21 However, obviously, as NOP asked upon

22 the NOSB, further clarification was needed on how
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1 to address ecology in these non-soil-based

2 systems. The minority view has introduced a new

3 concept in which we have asked the public at this

4 meeting for comment, of which little was

5 received. 

6 But trophic levels as an introduction

7 in attempts to find a compliant, organic,

8 systems-based level that can give something that

9 is physically verified and address an equal

10 playing ground across all organic systems,

11 focusing not just on microbial activity but on

12 microbial ecology.

13 The trophic levels definition that has

14 been introduced in this minority view is a

15 hierarchical level of organisms within an

16 ecosystem, each level consisting of organisms

17 that share the same function and food source in

18 the food chain of a defined ecosystem.

19 Examples of this would be Level 1

20 would be photosynthesizers, including plants,

21 lichen, moss, and some bacteria and algae. 

22 Bacteria and fungi in Level 2, which would be
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1 photosynthesizer predators. Level 3, shredders,

2 which would include, but not just only including,

3 millipedes, sow bugs, some mites, grazers of

4 bacteria and fungi. Level 4, higher level

5 predators, predatory and omnivore nematodes and

6 earthworms would be examples of Level 4. 

7 Level 5, vertebrates, frogs, snakes, birds, and

8 fish.

9 For those of you who are more inclined

10 to see pictures, I stole this from the NRCS here

11 to help us describe this. It is simply a graphic

12 representation of the levels that were just

13 described with the first filing through the

14 fourth.

15 Now for the fun stuff -- actual

16 regulations I have introduced. As we -- as I

17 introduced prior, this is a further defined and

18 redlined version of the NOSB's 2010

19 recommendation. So I will go through briefly

20 trying to call out some of the significant

21 changes.

22 Hydroponics. The definition largely
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1 stayed the same. The production of normally

2 terrestrial, vascular plants in nutrient-rich

3 solutions or an inert, porous, solid matrix

4 bathed in nutrient-rich solutions. The addition

5 has been in regards to sprouts and fodder and are

6 considered a processed material and not

7 considered hydroponics.

8 Container production has been

9 introduced with a definition. The production of

10 normally terrestrial, vascular plants in

11 containers. It can be certified organic if

12 production requirements of Section 205.209 are

13 met. And as I just described, trophic levels on

14 the previous couple of slides.

15 Within this section, 205.105, you see

16 the addition of aeroponics and hydroponics, which

17 would be prohibited without organic being

18 produced without the handle and use of aeroponics

19 and hydroponics. The addition of 205.209,

20 terrestrial plants in containers and enclosures,

21 would further stipulate how our containers could

22 be addressed within organic production. 
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1 Container and enclosure operations

2 must meet all applicable requirements of

3 Subpart B, 205.105. We'll go through this

4 quickly knowing the time.

5 Producer operating a container and

6 enclosure, operation with crops growing in

7 containers using a growing media that does not

8 include soil from the production site, is exempt

9 from 205.202(b). And for those of you keeping

10 track, that is the three-year timeframe from

11 transition.

12 Second, which is a new amendment to

13 this minority proposal, the producer operating

14 with crops grown in containers shall comply with

15 the applicable section of 205.203(a), which is

16 that has been managed in accordance to the soil

17 infertility in crop standard, which is Sections

18 205.203 to 206.

19 Further, that container-based producer

20 is exempt from crop rotation and cover cropping

21 requirements. In lieu of this, however, they

22 would have to focus on practices that achieved
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1 the functions and goals of crop rotation and

2 cover cropping, and there are some additional

3 examples that we could do for that.

4 And maintain or improve soil organic

5 matter content. Examples are including, but not

6 limited to, recycling and reuse of growing media,

7 additional of composts and other compostable

8 materials, earthworm replenishment, and microbial

9 reinoculation. Provide for pest management in

10 crops, soil-borne damping off controls for

11 various low temperature heating methods, soil

12 inoculation, using disease-suppressant bacteria

13 and fungi.

14 Manage deficient or excessive plant

15 nutrients. Examples are limited -- include, but

16 are not limited to, recycling of the excess plant

17 nutrients contained in drain water and media

18 containers, avoiding so-called drain-to-waste

19 systems, recycled nutrients to be reused in a

20 greenhouse, or, alternately, growing a crop

21 outside the facility and to address erosion

22 control, again, were the examples given.
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1 Four, the container organic system

2 must address the requirements to conserve

3 biodiversity and maintain or improve natural

4 resources on the site-specific operations. The

5 organic system plan should include the entire

6 production site, containers and non-containers as

7 applicable, as well as surrounding environment,

8 growing media requirements.

9 Relatively few changes to the 2010;

10 however, there is, as you can see, the

11 introduction of the supporting of the four

12 trophic levels, and the addition of growing media

13 shall be a minimum of 50 percent carbon-based

14 material.

15 And, finally, the addition that

16 producers must recycle or reuse containers at the

17 end of life. 

18 These changes have been made to

19 further clarify for the NOP how a standard may be

20 met as well as providing the flexibility for

21 innovative systems and organic production to

22 continue to evolve. 
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1 In addition, some of the stipulations

2 that have been added in the 2010 recommendation

3 are specifically driving at recyclability,

4 sustainability, and biodiversity, in the attempt

5 that we can create a system that would be

6 compatible and acceptable to address the concerns

7 of many in the organic community and find

8 compliant systems.

9 I will end there and open it up for

10 discussion or public comment for Harriet.

11 MS. BEHAR: Can I ask a question?

12 DR. THICKE: Sure.

13 MS. BEHAR: So a hydroponic operation

14 that would be in a warehouse, could that have the

15 four trophic levels?

16 MS. MOSSO: As this is written, as

17 long as it could meet the stipulations put here,

18 it could be a compliance system.

19 MS. BEHAR: So they would have to

20 bring snakes in or something or -- I'm trying to

21 think about that fifth trophic level with the

22 frogs. And, I mean, we're talking about an
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1 indoor -- completely indoor space. I'm just

2 trying to understand how they would be --

3 MS. MOSSO: It would have to be

4 reflective of four trophic levels, yes.

5 MS. BEHAR: Okay.

6 MS. MOSSO: As written here.

7 MS. BEHAR: I have snakes in my

8 greenhouse.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: I mean, as I understand

10 it, they would need to meet the four trophic

11 levels or they could not get certified organic. 

12 I mean, just like every other rule there is.

13 DR. THICKE: I have some questions

14 about that, too, but I think we should do our

15 round robin first, and then we can --

16 MS. BEHAR: Public comment.

17 DR. THICKE: A clarifying question?

18 MS. BEHAR: Public comment.

19 DR. THICKE: Public comment. Wait. 

20 Harriet.

21 MS. BEHAR: Okay. So I wanted to say,

22 I don't know, I must have been naughty and they
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1 gave me the job of summarizing these, but I

2 really did appreciate all of the comments. It

3 can be slightly overwhelming to have a

4 controversial issue that we have to deal with,

5 but it is also really part of our community to be

6 passionate and want to be involved. And I find

7 that, you know, kind of another hallmark of the

8 organic community.

9 So both -- so I am going to kind of

10 summarize each of the sites and then where they

11 all converged. Current organic hydroponic and

12 aquaponics operations want to retain their

13 organic certification and passionately described

14 how they meet organic rules and should be allowed

15 to use the USDA organic seal.

16 Many comments were made of the food

17 safety benefits of different types of ponic

18 production, access to farming for beginning

19 farmers of all types and ages, ability to grow

20 anywhere, including urban areas, and providing

21 healthy food with very low transport miles. Use

22 of only organically approved inputs, mostly
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1 fertility products, is the basis of their organic

2 approval as well as the sustainability of their

3 system. 

4 There was discussion that there is

5 less use of pesticides in these controlled

6 environments compared to open-air, field-grown

7 crops. Higher yields and year-round growing can

8 be accomplished using this unique technology, and

9 they felt that we should embrace this and not

10 stifle innovation.

11 Some discussion was done on perhaps a

12 label could better distinguish hydroponic from

13 soil-grown in the marketplace. And, lastly,

14 commenters made the argument that there is a need

15 for more organic produce in the market, not less.

16 On the other side, the soil people

17 stated that soil is the foundation of organic

18 agriculture and that it is mandated in law and

19 regulations in numerous places and numerous ways. 

20 Soil-based operations are also sustainable and

21 offer greater ecosystem benefits. Hydroponics

22 should promote their unique technologies with
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1 their own label and not ride on the coattails of

2 the organic label.

3 Foundational principles of organic

4 production are tied to feed the soil and not the

5 plant, as well as building continuous improvement

6 with less and less reliance on outside purchased

7 inputs. Numerous commenters commented on this

8 reliance and a variety of reasons that that is

9 not sustainable.

10 They did not have a difference -- no

11 problem with having a different production

12 system, but many felt very strongly it was not

13 organic according to the Organic Food Production

14 Act and the current regulations.

15 There is not just maintenance but

16 improvement of natural resources in field and

17 soil operations, and that is mandated in the

18 organic rule. All commenters talked about what

19 consumers want -- safe food, pesticide-free,

20 local food, protection of the environment, long21 term sustainability, and plants being fed through

22 a biologically active system.
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1 Some hydroponic container operators

2 said they could change their system to meet the

3 Crops Subcommittee recommendation, but most said

4 they could or would not. Some soil-based farmers

5 stated they could live with the Crops

6 Subcommittee compromise, but some said they

7 wanted crops growing in soil in the ground and

8 not in containers.

9 They only gave me five minutes, so -- 

10 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Harriet. I

11 warned Emily that she could be first, so why

12 don't we go around and each take a few minutes to

13 tell us what you think.

14 MS. OAKLEY: I feel so lucky to get to

15 be first. No, I don't. I just did want to say

16 that I feel like I have poured my heart out on

17 this issue over the course of several meetings

18 and on CS calls and hydroponic webinar. So there

19 is not a whole lot more I can say that people

20 haven't already heard. And just like others have

21 said, this issue is so controversial because we

22 are all debating our collective vision of organic
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1 agriculture here. But I did again prepare

2 comments that were written down, so that I would

3 say exactly what I meant to say.

4 Yeah. This debate is about so much

5 more than scale or geography, how big you grow or

6 where you grow. And we have seen farmers growing

7 large acreages and small acreages in the west and

8 in the east and even in the middle, expressing

9 their opposition to hydroponics.

10 But I feel as a smaller scale farmer

11 myself I am here to really represent that voice

12 on the board. And to that point, I often wonder

13 like what is the breakdown of the number of USDA

14 certified farms that fall within a range of acres

15 grown.

16 So I asked the National Agricultural

17 Statistics Service if they could give me that

18 data. So from the 2016 organic survey, this is

19 the first important statistic. 73 percent of all

20 certified farms were under 180 acres. That is a

21 big number. And if you want that broken down,

22 that's 14,185 certified farms altogether. 22
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1 percent grew under 10 acres; 23 percent grew

2 between 10 and 49; 28 grew between 50 and 179. 

3 So taken together, again, that's 73 percent of

4 all farms in 2016 growing under 180 acres. 

5 Why is that important? It's just

6 those numbers, because 73 percent is a

7 significant number. It is a huge percentage of

8 all certified organic farms in the United States. 

9 These smaller scale operations are not just a

10 side note to the movement. They are the

11 foundation of the certified organic label.

12 Meanwhile, in that same year, the NOP

13 provided us with survey data that they collected,

14 2016, that only less than .4 percent of all

15 worldwide certified organic operations were

16 hydroponic, aquaponic, or container-based

17 combined. And that was 121 operations in total

18 of the worldwide operations.

19 Small-scale organic farming is a labor

20 of love, not one done for profits. But there are

21 far easier ways to earn a living that family22 scale farmers do that is out of a passionate
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1 belief system and the value of organic farming,

2 which you have heard from in the past couple of

3 days. 

4 I have yet to hear from a single

5 small-scale farmer in support of hydroponics or

6 containers. In fact, an organic vegetable farmer

7 in my region who also has a small aquaponics

8 operation told me that he did not believe his

9 aquaponic system should or could be certified

10 organic.

11 I know some are legitimately concerned

12 about taking away certification from those who

13 have already been certified, those aquaponics and

14 hydroponic and container systems. But in my

15 view, a far greater concern is that 73 percent of

16 smaller scale farmers -- and I don't want them to

17 begin to feel sufficiently disenfranchised from

18 the label as to leave it, which I think is a very

19 legitimate concern.

20 And that is not a concern as much just

21 to the small-scale farmers. That is concern to

22 the entire label, and the larger scale operations
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1 because we are all operating under the integrity

2 and understanding of this label.

3 Soil-based farmers have expressed

4 their strong preference for organics in the soil,

5 in the ground. And to be clear, that is my own

6 preference and the one I feel obligated to

7 represent as a stakeholder. So please be fully

8 aware that my support of the CS motion on

9 container growing is a monumental compromise for

10 me, one which my stakeholder community will not

11 support.

12 I ask my fellow board members to meet

13 me in the middle and realize that that, too, will

14 mean for them not fully representing everything

15 that their stakeholders want. And I feel that

16 this compromise position is our highest and best

17 effort and closest chance we will ever get to

18 that.

19 DR. THICKE: For the record, I should

20 say Harriet is next. Somebody has got to

21 transcribe all of this.

22 MS. BEHAR: Okay. So I have been an
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1 organic inspector for a few decades. I have

2 taught organic farming I can't tell you to how

3 many, probably thousands of people over many

4 workshops and field days and answering questions

5 on the telephone. 

6 And I feel I really have a connection

7 with people who are organic farmers, who want to

8 be organic farmers, but I really have a

9 connection with the rule. I mean, when someone

10 says, "Harriet, will you go teach the organic

11 regulation" at this conference or at a field day,

12 it's like Harriet can do this in her sleep. 

13 Literally. Sometimes I wonder, what did I just

14 do? But I know I gave the organic regulation.

15 And so looking at hydroponic, I am

16 seeing it through the Organic Food Production Act

17 and through the organic regulation. And, really,

18 the word "soil" is woven in there in so many

19 places. And it's not just as a substrate; it's

20 as the system that is feeding the plant and

21 feeding the planet.

22 So I wanted to just show when you're
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1 soil-based agriculture -- you really are

2 integrated with a greater ecosystem, and I went

3 through an organic system plan, and I put in,

4 hopefully -- it's the upper -- hello.

5 So the things that have to be done by

6 a soil-based farmer in the organic system plan. 

7 Well, they have to do crop rotation. They have

8 to use cover crops. They have to manage use of

9 animal manures protecting water quality and food

10 safety from pathogens. They have to put in

11 pollinator and beneficial insect habitat. This

12 is all from an organic system plan where people

13 have -- wildlife habitat, providing food and

14 habitat for wildlife. And although many farmers

15 don't like to think of their crops as food for

16 wildlife, it is.

17 Hello. I'm hitting it. There we go. 

18 No. Maybe, Michelle, you want to hit it. Okay.

19 Approved organic pesticides. Next? 

20 Maybe you just hit them for me, so we don't --

21 approved organic fertilizers and micronutrients. 

22 Next? 
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1 Food safety planning. That's not

2 necessarily required, but it is done. Next?

3 Wildlife -- oh, I guess I had that

4 twice. Okay. Next?

5 That it's soil-based because that is

6 part of the rule. Next?

7 Compost is used. Next?

8 Diverse and robust biological life. 

9 Next?

10 Monitoring of crop health. Next?

11 Protection of ecosystem water quality.

12 Next?

13 Minimize soil erosion. Next?

14 Water conservation. Next?

15 Protection of stream banks and

16 wetlands. Next?

17 Use of organic and untreated seeds. 

18 Next?

19 Removal of plastics at the end of the

20 season. Next?

21 Bat houses and birdhouses and frog

22 ponds, which I have all of those on my farm. 
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1 Next?

2 Less sprays along the roadways and

3 under utility lines, and that just kind of shows

4 even the greater ecosystem. And I know in my

5 neighborhood the utility company, every few years

6 they come and they have me resign my no-spray

7 agreement with them, and they complain to me

8 because I made the whole neighborhood a no-spray

9 area.

10 Mitigation against pesticide spray

11 drift and GMO drift. Next?

12 Integrate cultural, biological, and

13 mechanical practices. Next?

14 Recycling of plant residues and on15 farm-generated nutrients. Next?

16 Conserve and improve biodiversity. 

17 Next?

18 Okay. So water-based agriculture can

19 very easily be removed from the greater

20 ecosystem. I don't know what's going on. You

21 can do next.

22 And so there are things that are being
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1 done that are on the organic system plan. Hit

2 the button.

3 So approved organic pesticides. I

4 agree, that's what they are -- so I just --

5 similar to the soil-based. Next?

6 Approved organic fertilizers and

7 micronutrients. Yeah, that's there. Food safety

8 planning. Yep, that's done. Some biological

9 life. Yeah, I would say that there is some

10 there. I would say it's not as great as in the

11 soil. Yes, they monitor crop health. Next?

12 There is water conservation. Yes. 

13 Next?

14 Use of organic and untreated seeds. 

15 Yep. Okay. Next?

16 Mitigation against pesticide spray

17 drift and GMO drift. Yeah, that happens. So

18 let's compare. So here is the two different

19 systems, and so the activities that are being

20 done on a field-grown, soil-based system just has

21 so much more activity going on. It has so much

22 more benefits, not just even on that farm but in
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1 the greater area. And I know that on my farm I

2 see that, you know, the fact that they're not

3 spraying the roadsides literally for a few miles

4 because I got all my neighbors to say, "Don't

5 spray under the roads, lay it along the roads." 

6 So I just -- I'm looking at this from

7 the regulation, how much the soil-based farmers

8 have to do under an organic system plan versus

9 what is capable of a water-based system and what

10 they are asked to do. I think there is just --

11 the soil-based people deserve that organic label

12 because they're working really hard.

13 And then the last slide is, while I

14 was here, I got this over my email, that there is

15 a lot of discussion about hydroponic being much

16 safer for food, you know, has a better food

17 safety. But I think we are basically equal

18 there, that there can be outbreaks in a

19 hydroponic operation. 

20 This is in Illinois. It's an

21 operation that produces over a million clamshells

22 a year of greens, and they had a recall of E.
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1 coli on October 27th. 

2 So food safety planning, if you

3 noticed, it was in both. So I don't say that one

4 is better than the other. Both have to work at

5 that. 

6 So just in summary, I just -- I really

7 feel that the organic regulation and the Organic

8 Food Production Act fully support soil-based

9 agriculture and does not support the label being

10 put on operations that rely on outside inputs for

11 all of their nutrition, liquid feeding.

12 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Harriet. Sue?

13 MS. BAIRD: I feel very -- I don't

14 have all these pretty slides, so I'm just going

15 to talk to you from my heart. I'm here to

16 represent a public interest. I could almost

17 duplicate Harriet's long history by a few years.

18 She actually was my mentor to become

19 an organic inspector. I have inspected organic

20 farms from all over the United States. I have

21 taught organic inspection and organic

22 certification in 18 states, in Mexico, in
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1 Guatemala, in Peru, and in Egypt, and in England.

2 So I think that I know the regulation. 

3 I have many dear friends in the soil world, and

4 I'm in the soil world. There's nothing I like

5 better than to take my shoes off when it gets

6 warm enough, and sometimes when it's not quite

7 warm enough, and walk in my garden barefoot in

8 the soil. I think there is something magical

9 about being in the soil.

10 But, and here is where you guys are

11 going to crucify me, I was in state government

12 for quite a long time, and I was taught when you

13 write a law or a regulation to implement the law

14 -- and I'm going to read this to you. It is an

15 1807 communication from Thomas Jefferson to

16 William H. Cabell concerning statutory

17 interpretation. And Thomas Jefferson stated, and

18 this is used through all kinds of laws and

19 regulations and what must be followed.

20 "In the construction of a law, even in

21 judiciary cases of" -- Richard, I don't know that

22 word -- M-E-U-M, E-T, T-U-U-M, Latin I did not
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1 learn -- "where the opposite parties have a right

2 and counter right, in the very words of the law,

3 the judge considers the intention of the lawgiver

4 as the true guide and gives to all the parts an

5 expression of the law that meaning which will

6 effect instead of defeating its intention." And

7 it goes on and on. And that is what is used to

8 interpret laws even to this day.

9 And so going back into the intent of

10 the law, we find -- and I think Tom brought

11 several of this up. But even in the 1995 NOSB

12 recommendation standards for greenhouses it

13 contained this statement. "Hydroponic production

14 and soilless medium to be labeled organically

15 produced shall be allowed if all provisions of

16 OCPA have been met."

17 And, of course, it was pointed out by

18 Sam Welch and others that of course OCPA had soil

19 written into it many times, and I am cognizant of

20 that.

21 In March of 2000, a revised proposed

22 rule stated they revised the initial proposed
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1 rule. In their supplemental information they

2 stated, "We have amended the term system of

3 organic farming and handling to system of organic

4 production and handling, and retained the

5 original definition of the proposal." 

6 The original definition was crafted to

7 be consistent with the requirements of the Act. 

8 We have changed "farming" to "production" to

9 provide a more encompassing term which may come

10 to include such diverse activities as

11 hydroponics, greenhouse production, and

12 harvesting of aquatic animals.

13 The purpose of the original definition

14 was to describe practices and substances

15 consistent with systems of organic farming and

16 organic handling as required by the Act, and to

17 provide an explicit reference point for

18 determining which practices and substances are

19 most consistent with these systems.

20 In other words, there was an intent

21 from the very beginning that at some point we

22 would address and encompass hydroponics systems,
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1 and I can't go back on that. More than that, I

2 am a mother and I am a grandmother and I am a

3 concerned citizen.

4 I am a product of -- at least from

5 1600 we traced our roots back to farming. I am a

6 product of farmers. I am a farmer more than

7 anything in the world. My members of MOA are

8 farmers, and many of them will disagree with how,

9 the position I am taking today. Some of them

10 will agree.

11 So I'm here just to -- because, well,

12 you can't please everybody. So I'm here to

13 follow my heart, and my heart says land is

14 disappearing. My people that have settled in

15 northwest Arkansas in 1852, those people can no

16 longer buy farms because -- I'm not going to use

17 that D word that we use for the Yankees who have

18 come down and bought all of our farms. Cannot

19 farm -- buy farmland. They want to farm. They

20 were raised for generations to be farmers. They

21 can't find land. They want to raise food for

22 their neighbors.
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1 Last year we had a horrible incident

2 in Missouri. Was it two years ago? I think it's

3 still last year. Ferguson. Do you all remember

4 Ferguson? Made national news. Urban young

5 people are so disenfranchised. They don't have

6 fresh food available. You can say, "Oh, well,

7 you know, you can go to the grocery store," but

8 many of these people don't have opportunities to

9 go to the grocery store, and they need fresh

10 food.

11 And there is no land. It's concrete. 

12 How do we supply those foods for the next

13 generations? How do we do that? Well, yeah, we

14 can establish community gardens, and we do that. 

15 But we have young people who have lost their

16 hope. They can't afford tractors. They can't

17 afford cultivators, and I don't know how that guy

18 does 38,000 acres of certified organic vegetables

19 because I sure couldn't do it. He must use a

20 whole lot of help.

21 But I'm telling you, that little --

22 can I say those minority people on those concrete
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1 don't have that opportunity, and they need

2 opportunity to farm food. So reading this and

3 seeing that the intent was that someday we would

4 allow hydroponics and aquaponics, and all the new

5 stuff that happens to be labeled as organic, I am

6 not inclined to limit organic labeling to just

7 soil.

8 And I'm sorry to the pioneers who have

9 done such wonderful, wonderful work, in the soil. 

10 I'll always be there with you. I'll always put

11 my feet in the dirt first thing in the spring. 

12 But I have to say no.

13 DR. THICKE: Thank you. I think that

14 we kind of agreed to three minutes sort of, but -

15 - so that's okay. We'll just give everybody a

16 chance. Thank you. Scott?

17 MR. RICE: Thanks. Like all of my

18 fellow board members, I have given this quite a

19 bit of thought and listened to, of course, a

20 number of comments and read as many. You know, I

21 have been somewhat frustrated with the either/or

22 and the with or against, and that always kind of
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1 saddens me a bit to see that split, because I

2 don't see this as an either/or, for or against

3 soil. 

4 I have had a long, great relationship

5 with soil. I've farmed beautiful soil, I have

6 farmed not-so-beautiful soil, and I have seen the

7 reward of building that over a number of years

8 and seen that -- seen the impact of that and have

9 gained from that.

10 And, you know, we've heard about

11 people having a preference for one of the other. 

12 I think, you know, part of me will always have a

13 preference to that soil. But I also like to keep

14 an open mind to innovation and see that as really

15 one of the greatest skills that growers bring to

16 farming. 

17 And, you know, when I first got into

18 this, into organic production and getting my

19 hands dirty, I didn't really understand the

20 attraction of hydroponics or soilless growing or

21 container growing. But, you know, as I have

22 learned more about these production systems and
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1 seen them in action and visited them, I have seen

2 some pretty amazing examples of it, including a

3 recent visit to an operation that expressed quite

4 a number of the benefits that Harriet shared with

5 us and, you know, seeing them as being emphatic

6 about building their -- building and feeding

7 their soil and that media that they felt -- and

8 their care of it with soil and the plants in it,

9 with a significant focus on sourcing organic seed

10 and moving in the direction of solely organic

11 seed and moving those who supply them with seed

12 to encourage organic seed trials. 

13 They are looking at seasonal

14 production where they are not using any

15 artificial light. They start early in the season

16 and late, and then get beds ready for the next

17 year. There is a cycling of nutrients, a

18 rotation of crops, and reuse of that soil media,

19 and recycling of water, capturing CO2 from their

20 heating systems and bringing that back to the

21 plants.

22 And, you know, that was a pretty
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1 impressive operation, and, you know, are they all

2 like that? Of course not. I think in all of the

3 production systems that we see, whether they are

4 a traditional, so to speak, farm in the soil, or

5 some of these alternative methods, that's one of

6 the spirit -- one of the things that is the

7 spirit of organic, of that continuous

8 improvement. 

9 That's something that we see in

10 production. That's something that we in our

11 certification works always recognize and seek to

12 improve. 

13 You know, when I asked operations like

14 this and this -- this one I mentioned in

15 particular, if they could comply with these

16 parameters we have talked about, and they said,

17 "Well, maybe, and, you know, we could certainly

18 try." But, really, they are committed to the

19 organic production that they have really been

20 working with and toward for the last 12 years.

21 And it just sort of after continuously

22 designing and adjusting a system and really
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1 incorporating those organic principles, you know,

2 it just kind of struck me as unreasonable and

3 wasteful to ask them to completely start over to

4 meet -- to meet something that it feels like they

5 are already -- they are meeting.

6 You know, as a certifier, I'm sitting

7 in the seat, you know, looking for as definitive

8 a line as possible, so that, you know, our

9 reviewers and inspectors can make consistent

10 decisions about what -- or what is or isn't

11 compliant. You know, these are theoretically

12 dispassionate determinations that are made on

13 issues, sometimes pretty frayed with a great

14 amount of passion.

15 You know, as certifiers, we are

16 certainly not agreed on this. Some of us have

17 chosen not to certify. Others of course see a

18 place for this production. The certifier that I

19 work for, we have one operation. It's a pretty

20 small operation that is one of those that I have

21 seen as a so-called next generation grower who

22 wanted to try the system but wanted to do it
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1 using his commitment to organic -- to the

2 principles and to the regulation.

3 You know, I kind of share, as one

4 commenter noted, looking at this as more of an

5 outcome-based system than an input-based --

6 DR. THICKE: I'm going to have to play

7 Tom's role here pretty soon. Tom is giving me

8 the swinging finger.

9 MR. RICE: All right. I think CCOF

10 provides a good example of a way forward on this,

11 and options included with labeling. And I don't

12 necessarily see a negative impact of having a

13 label of differentiation. I see that as perhaps

14 another part of a compromise that we can move

15 forward on. I'll leave it at that.

16 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Scott. Dan?

17 DR. SEITZ: So as a consumer member,

18 and also as someone who has only been on the

19 board for two years, this is a particularly

20 difficult issue because I have been on a very

21 steep learning curve. I haven't yet earned my

22 Ph.D. in biochemistry, so there is a good deal
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1 that -- of technical information that is pretty

2 tough to assimilate.

3 But in having thought about this

4 carefully, I will say that I am in support of the

5 majority compromise position put forward by the

6 Crops Subcommittee, and I will offer a few of the

7 reasons that -- upon which I base that.

8 First, as a number of people have

9 pointed out, the issue is not whether

10 hydroponics, et cetera, should be allowed. Of

11 course they should be allowed, but simply whether

12 they should be allowed to have access to the

13 organic certification. So I think that to me is

14 key.

15 I want to say that I'm pleased that

16 many hydroponic operations are interested in

17 following the practices contained in the organic

18 standard, such as avoiding GMOs, avoiding the use

19 of conventional pesticides and such. I think

20 that's incredibly positive.

21 So this sector, in my mind, has -- not

22 only has its place but offers a lot of benefits. 
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1 Sue just mentioned urban employment, in some

2 cases shorter distances between farms and

3 consumers, and a number of other reasons.

4 However, I don't think that the lack

5 of organic certification will impede innovation

6 in hydroponics and in farming or the hydroponic

7 industry in general.

8 A number of testifiers have referred

9 to lawyers throughout the course of the couple

10 days of testimony. I don't know if they were

11 complimentary references or not. I am a lawyer. 

12 So I just want to say that the clear language and

13 intent of the statute and regulations, as I read

14 them, truly do limit the organic standard to

15 soil-based systems.

16 So in OCPA, there are seven references

17 to soil, none to hydroponics or container

18 growing. In fact, the only references to

19 containers are containers referred to in the

20 context of handling.

21 And it is right up there very

22 strongly. It says, "Soil fertility" -- under a
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1 section called Soil Fertility, "An organic plant

2 shall contain provisions designed to foster soil

3 fertility, primarily through the management of

4 the organic content of the soil through proper

5 tillage, crop rotation, and manuring."

6 And, similarly, the organic

7 regulations, there are 53 references to soil,

8 often with the words fertility and improvement

9 attached. Again, no references to hydroponics or

10 container growing. And in the regulations, there

11 is an entire section pertaining to soil

12 fertility.

13 So those are indications that that was

14 certainly not only the intent but very much -- 

15 it's not only intent that you have to read in the

16 language, but it's there clearly presented.

17 The very good point was made that laws

18 over the course of time may need to be

19 interpreted differently, especially as

20 circumstances evolve. But I would say in this

21 case the continued interpretation of the law as

22 requiring soil-based makes as much sense and as -
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1 - is as relevant today as it was in the -- when

2 the law and regulations were written.

3 And I think that's because we're

4 seeing the dramatic effects of things -- of

5 climate change, and that's not only on the

6 environment but also on the infrastructure, with

7 the example of the electrical infrastructure of

8 Puerto Rico being destroyed in the recent

9 hurricane.

10 And from what I've read, organic

11 agriculture can play an important and perhaps

12 even essential role in carbon sequestration. So

13 I'd be hesitant to make a decision that may start

14 to divert the conversion of conventional farmland

15 -- or divert people from converting conventional

16 farmland to organic to other approaches to

17 agriculture.

18 We have also -- I heard one piece of

19 testimony about the $800 million experiment of a

20 large organic grower in trying to do a large21 scale hydroponic operation, and only found that

22 through that experience some of the plants were
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1 more prone to insect and disease problems.

2 And one of the things that has come

3 through again in things I've heard and in

4 testimony I've heard is the resiliency of soil5 based agriculture. So in the face of climate

6 change, in the face of potential infrastructure

7 disruption, it seems to me absolutely essential

8 that we have a resilient system.

9 Just a couple of other points. A lot

10 has been said about consumer expectations, but I

11 would say that the European Union's direction in

12 terms of its regulation of hydroponics was based

13 on their view that consumers see soil-based as

14 very much identified with organics, and that has

15 been my experience in talking to people and

16 visiting many stores and seeing all of the

17 photographs of the farmers on walls and so forth.

18 DR. THICKE: Dan, you're at about six

19 minutes.

20 DR. SEITZ: Wow, that goes fast. 

21 Okay. So anyway, in conclusion, I would like to

22 say that based on my reading of the statute,
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1 consumer expectations, and also the importance of

2 learning from working with nature that I would

3 support the compromise that was put forward.

4 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Dan. Tom? 

5 I'm going to be timing you, too.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Yes. We had agreed to

7 three minutes, just so folks know, and we

8 definitely don't seem to be able to abide by the

9 same requirements we put on the public. 

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. CHAPMAN: And I didn't time mine,

12 so who knows, but let me get started right now. 

13 I only have six points to make, and I'll make

14 them brief. I generally support the 2010 opinion

15 -- the 2010 opinion that allowed for growing

16 media composed of compostable plant material and

17 compost that was stated by the NOSB to be

18 rightfully considered soil.

19 I disagree with this proposal because

20 it focuses -- the focus of this proposal is

21 purely on inputs. Organic is so much more than

22 inputs, and the compliance of organic production
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1 systems should not be reduced to the source of

2 nitrogen.

3 I find the carved-out exemptions

4 fairly arbitrary and lacking in sound logic, and

5 I find when you take a long and detailed review

6 of the history of organic hydroponics debate that

7 it's relevant, and that this issue has been here

8 since the beginning, and that all previous boards

9 have failed to sufficiently clarify to move

10 forward with rulemaking on this subject to either

11 set standards or to prohibit.

12 And, unfortunately, I fear we are

13 about to follow in their same footsteps. Most

14 criticisms on these systems have been related to

15 sustainability and compatibility with organic

16 certification systems, and principles are also

17 applicable to in-ground operations as well.

18 Criticisms of off-farm inputs are

19 relevant to in-ground operations as well as in

20 media growers alike who utilize off-farm inputs. 

21 Concerns around the energy used for heating and

22 lighting, carbon sequestration, mulches,
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1 et cetera, are all applicable to in-ground

2 greenhouses as well.

3 I have also yet to see an end-to-end

4 comparison of carbon inputs to justify the claims

5 around the carbon net positive and net negative,

6 and it seems like these criticisms could be

7 shaped in any direction at this time.

8 And my last point was not fully

9 withstanding my first point of supporting the

10 2010 recommendation, I am intrigued by the

11 proposal put forward by CCOF and would be happy

12 to consider this further if it seems possible

13 that the board could come to a decisive majority. 

14 However, it doesn't seem like that is

15 possible. The board is divided today, like it

16 has been -- like it has been over the years, and

17 it reflects the division in the organic

18 community.

19 Additionally, I don't know if the CCOF

20 proposal would be considered a compromise

21 proposal by most of the in-soil growers we have

22 heard here. And I similarly find it difficult to
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1 call the current majority proposal a compromise

2 when it's not supported by any of the leaders of

3 the community that grows in media that are

4 certified organic.

5 In summary, because this is

6 inconsistent with the 2010 opinion, because it

7 reduces organic production to input measurements,

8 because this proposal ignores the history and

9 diversity of views that bring people to the

10 organic table, I just can't support this proposal

11 on aquaponics, hydroponics, and containers as it

12 is currently written.

13 It says 2:59 and 28 by the way.

14 DR. THICKE: That was very good. 

15 Thank you.

16 (Laughter.)

17 DR. THICKE: Ashley?

18 MS. SWAFFAR: So I first want to say

19 that healthy soils are important, and I do farm

20 in the soil and see the benefits of healthy soil

21 and also the challenges of building healthy

22 soils.
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1 But I do not feel that organic

2 production should only be granted to those who

3 grow in the outer crust of the earth. We have

4 heard from both sides about what their consumers

5 say about organic and if it should be soil-based

6 or if hydroponics should be allowed.

7 I feel like the key factor we are

8 missing is partially where the customer lives. 

9 Someone buying lettuce or tomatoes in a state

10 like Vermont probably has different priorities

11 than the average consumer picking up a box of

12 organic tomatoes in a big box retailer in the

13 Midwest or the south.

14 The organic consumer has different

15 reasons for purchasing organic products, and I

16 truly feel the vast majority of those consumers

17 who purchase organic products do so because they

18 do not want GMOs or harmful chemicals in their

19 foods. If we vote to ban hydroponics in

20 container production, we would remove a large

21 portion of fresh organic produce from the

22 marketplace. 
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1 Another point is we haven't received

2 any data that states that produce coming from

3 hydroponics or containers is more harmful than

4 produce grown in the soil. When looking to

5 prohibit a practice, something I would expect is

6 that we would need some type of justification

7 that the practice would make the product more

8 harmful, and we have not.

9 I would have hoped that we have --

10 that we could have came up with a compromise, but

11 we did not. I would be open to looking at adding

12 a label requirement for containers and

13 hydroponics as CCOF had suggested, but I would

14 say that for me that label would need to include

15 the USDA organic seal.

16 That's it. Thank you.

17 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Ashley. 

18 Jesse?

19 MR. BUIE: You know, I kind of want to

20 take a different approach to this issue. When I

21 was honored to be appointed to this board, the

22 first thing -- you know, I feel the same way I
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1 did about protecting that organic seal as I did

2 when I was a soldier protecting the American

3 flag.

4 We live in a competitive -- we live in

5 a capitalistic society where competition is good. 

6 The market will determine the continued success

7 of hydro, aero, and aquaponics, and certified

8 organic, if the consumer has full disclosure as

9 to how these different operations work. 

10 And I want to say it again. Notice I

11 mention each one of them separate, and certified

12 organic, and not attaching organic to a different

13 method for survival reasons, which is what I

14 constantly hear.

15 I believe that soil is the foundation

16 of organic, and this subcommittee has really

17 worked tirelessly to come up with a compromise. 

18 Good or bad, I have seen much work done in trying

19 to get some consensus. And as everybody has

20 mentioned, we don't have it yet.

21 But fellow board members, I kind of

22 want to ask you something, and correct me if need
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1 be. The elephant in this room is the fact that

2 we are trying to solve a problem that kind of was

3 created above us -- above the chain of command,

4 and I hope I don't get in trouble. And I'm

5 honest about that because I do want to serve on

6 the board.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MR. BUIE: But the ultimate solution

9 to the problem that we are talking about, the

10 ultimate solution is for the NOP to enforce the

11 regulations. It's just that simple. But that

12 hasn't happened.

13 So I want to say now that what the

14 Crops Subcommittee is presenting today to vote on

15 is a very good attempt to come up with a

16 compromise. I support the position of the

17 subcommittee -- that the subcommittee has taken. 

18 But, again, I want to say the ultimate solution

19 is that the NOP enforce the regulation.

20 (Applause.)

21 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Jesse. Dave?

22 MR. MORTENSEN: Thank you, Francis. 
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1 I'd like to first thank the farmers in the room,

2 the farmers that took the time to call in for the

3 conversations, and farmers that I have had the

4 good fortune to work with in their fields in

5 Mississippi, North Carolina, Virginia, Iowa,

6 Nebraska, Pennsylvania, New York, and in The

7 Netherlands. Greatly informed my perspective on

8 what is a sustainable agricultural system, and

9 certainly what I would expect of our organic

10 labeled cropping system.

11 From my point of view, I have three

12 concerns that I will flag, and I should just come

13 out and say, and it won't surprise anyone I don't

14 think that has heard me chiming in on things,

15 that I support the majority view.

16 There are three things I will

17 highlight, although I agree with everything else

18 that has been said before me. But the three

19 things I am going to highlight is input

20 substitution, a climate-friendly sustainable

21 production system, and then I noticed several

22 people had an issue with my using the word
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1 "natural," so I changed "unnatural" to

2 "agriculture that defies coevolution." And I

3 will explain what that means in about a minute's

4 time.

5 So, in my view, there is no -- there

6 is no lack of clarity on the issue about

7 sustainability and about the carbon footprint of

8 agriculture here. There isn't. At least if you

9 look at the published literature and the farms

10 that I visited, organic farms are -- this is a

11 paper in Nature recently published, meta-analysis

12 across many farms around the world, is storing 12

13 to 26 percent more carbon in the soil than any

14 other form of agriculture. Period.

15 That's great. Thank you, organic

16 farmers. Thank you. 

17 On the other -- on the flip side of

18 it, to produce a crop, if we -- and we tried to

19 put these numbers into a number that we can wrap

20 -- I could, and we could wrap our heads around, a

21 tomato. A pound of tomato. An organic farmer in

22 the soil produces a pound of tomato while
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1 releasing .2 to .7 pounds of carbon dioxide, a

2 greenhouse gas that we know is increasing in the

3 atmosphere.

4 When I was young, like many of you, I

5 was studying this at Duke University, 310 parts

6 per million carbon dioxide. We passed the 410

7 million -- parts per million carbon dioxide

8 concentration in April of this year. That was

9 our experimental target we were thinking we would

10 reach 50 years out when I was 30 years old.

11 So .2 to .7 pounds CO2 release per

12 pound of tomato in hydroponic systems -- now this

13 is a meta-analysis here, so we could argue the

14 data. So I tried to present ranges so as not to

15 bias. 2.22 to 10 pounds of carbon dioxide are

16 released for each pound of tomato. That's an

17 order of magnitude greater footprint carbon

18 dioxide release for the production of vegetables

19 in a hydroponic system.

20 In my view, that's not sustainable. 

21 Climate change is a huge deal for us, make no

22 mistake. We've got three Nobel Prize winners
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1 where I teach, and this is a huge issue. I grew

2 up in New York City. I taught in Spanish Harlem. 

3 I have worked with kids in the inner city, and I

4 have seen the subway systems flooded in New York

5 from Hurricane Sandy where my kids live.

6 Lettuce production in the desert of

7 Arizona and New Mexico, 82 times the energy

8 required to grow lettuce in the ground, in the

9 soil. 82 times. Unsustainable. That's where

10 I'm coming from when I say the inputs are

11 unsustainable and I don't see much of an argument

12 against that, frankly.

13 Unnatural. Taking a plant that has

14 evolved in the soil and changing the production

15 system, so that we will now grow the plant in

16 water and bathe it with nutrients, I say is

17 unnatural, I say defies coevolution in important

18 ways, and we know this. It's published. Roots

19 produce whole suites of cells at the tips of

20 their roots that talk to the microbial community

21 in the soil, a diverse microbial community in the

22 soil. They are called border cells.
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1 They are washed away in a nutrient2 bathed growing environment. Those very cells are

3 sending signals back to the root cells and to the

4 shoots that are mediating the phytochemical

5 reaction of the shoots up-regulating the

6 production of valuable secondary metabolites that

7 affect human health in a very positive way.

8 We are running long on time. The

9 argument about diversity in the soil is, to me,

10 silly. I could spend an hour on that. And I

11 don't mean to be condescending, but it's silly. 

12 We are taking bacteria and fungi and comparing

13 that to soil where we've got 10 or so trophic

14 levels, 20 functional groups compared to two. To

15 me, we need to just talk about the data as

16 opposed to imagined realities about biodiversity.

17 I'll stop there.

18 DR. THICKE: Steve?

19 MR. ELA: Well, this is hard. When I

20 was a grad student, my office at the University

21 of Minnesota in St. Paul was in the basement of

22 Borlaug Hall. Norman Borlaug, father of the
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1 green revolution, savior of the planet, in that

2 he was going to with hybrid seeds and fertilizers

3 -- we were going to increase food production and

4 help the whole world feed itself.

5 And I came out of the conventional

6 agricultural system and, you know, but when I was

7 in school I looked at that a lot. And basically

8 those kinds of systems were guaranteed to

9 increase access, increase production. They were

10 better and they were innovative.

11 I've heard that about GMOs. I've

12 heard that about NPK fertilizers. And so I come

13 today from the heart of the precautionary

14 principal and of human hubris, and all of those

15 systems have come back to bite us in the butt

16 because they don't take into account the whole

17 ecosystem.

18 As humans, we want to believe that we

19 can recreate very complex systems and that we

20 mimic them very well. And as we go down the

21 road, whether it's with DDT or many of these

22 other things, we find later that there are
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1 unintended consequences.

2 So as a grower, and I've been farming

3 my whole life, but full-time since 1990, for 27

4 years, starting conventionally, transitioning to

5 organic, now as a full organic grower, I realize

6 that we're farming very complex systems, and we

7 don't know what is happening in our soils, yet we

8 do know there is cycling, we know there is tie-up

9 and release, we know there is carbon

10 sequestration and release. We know there are

11 multiple layers, including high-end predators and

12 low-end plants.

13 We know it's a system that can create

14 its own nutrition through nitrogen fixation and

15 legumes, and one that includes multiple plant

16 species. I'm a perennial plant grower. And if

17 you come out, our crop rotation is all the time

18 under the trees, multiple species, multiple

19 levels, nitrogen fixation, and my goal as a

20 grower is to grow all my own fertility. I'm not

21 there yet, but that is my goal.

22 I don't believe that we can engineer
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1 or redesign a replica of this complex system, and

2 a complex system that we have yet to understand. 

3 All the soil science -- my background is in soil

4 science. That was my master's degree. We only

5 understand the tip of that iceberg, and so I do

6 not believe we can redesign that system because

7 we don't even know what that system is.

8 I don't believe that the -- and I'm a

9 scientist, but I don't believe that the science

10 exists to make a complete choice. With any new

11 material added, we want to dive ahead and figure

12 that it's okay, but so often we find that that

13 new material isn't okay. 

14 And for me, I have great respect for

15 the hydroponic, aquaponics growers. They are

16 very, very intriguing systems, and I believe in

17 the integrity of those people and in their best

18 intentions. And I believe that we don't know,

19 and so I'm going that very cautionary. And at

20 this point, until we have a better understanding

21 of soils, I want to know -- I'm going to stay

22 with the soil.
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1 We have talked about water, and that

2 has come up in a lot of the public comments. 

3 Here is a picture of one row of my farm. It's

4 some plums. You can see two very different cover

5 crops. The only difference in that row is water,

6 and it's not the amount of water. 

7 Those two sides were planted to the

8 cover crop exactly the same way. They are both

9 under drip systems that are exactly the same,

10 providing the exact same amount of water. One of

11 them has a drip line that is buried, and one of

12 them has above ground. It is striking, and the

13 only difference is how the water is applied, and

14 it changes that whole ecosystem. Explain that to

15 me.

16 It's not simply about nutrients being

17 carried in water and plants taking them up. It's

18 about a complex system right there that is night

19 and day that I have no clue about. The other

20 thing I believe is in this system that is

21 resilient, it can respond to changes.

22 And to wind it up, I can say that in
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1 part of my orchard, part of my ecosystem, the

2 more I farm, the more I value letting the

3 ecosystem function and regulate itself, and

4 growing wonderful food with less, not more,

5 management. The longer I farm, the less I know.

6 And I really became an organic farmer

7 not because of what I know but because of what I

8 don't know.

9 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Steve. 

10 Joelle? No. Michelle volunteered to turn that

11 on, so let's -- it's probably not fair.

12 MS. MOSSO: I'm timing myself, so

13 you're all right. I'm actually going to take a

14 different approach, and I definitely support and

15 can hear the conversation from all the growers in

16 the room and the growers who have over time given

17 comment. However, I also would like to emphasize

18 that is not the entirety of our organic

19 community, and there are a lot of people who

20 participate, whether it just be in the purchase

21 power of their dollar, or in a more involved way

22 within their own maybe micro-organic community.
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1 The beauty of our label is that we

2 have been allowing inclusive methods that have

3 allowed for innovative development, and allowing

4 not just for development but for the purchase

5 spectrum of organic consumers. And to deny some

6 of the consumers what they associate as organic

7 simply because one fraction of the community

8 feels that it is such, I don't know that that is

9 an appropriate thing to do at this point.

10 And so I would be more in support of a

11 label that would give transparency and allow for

12 free capitalism in this market, to allow the

13 market to grow in an organic way, driven by the

14 consumers as well as the producers. And I do

15 think the absence of that consumer voice has been

16 noted in this conversation. I think that is

17 pretty evident in the last couple days, but it is

18 certainly a voice which has gotten us to the

19 platform and the foundation of our market, which

20 we sit at today and have the luxury of debating a

21 $50 billion industry.

22 They are certainly within our own
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1 ecosystem of the organic community. And I think

2 as we celebrate biodiversity, both in our

3 production methods, we also need to recognize the

4 import of everyone's opinion that has been

5 participating in this organic community since the

6 genesis of the program. And I will leave it at

7 that.

8 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Joelle. I

9 think you were the fastest there. Asa?

10 MR. BRADMAN: So this is the hardest

11 decision I'll ever make, and it's kind of

12 emotional in a way. A lot of what Sue said

13 resonates for me, and I kind of want to just

14 repeat everything that she said, and, plus, the

15 opportunity for those different communities to

16 have access to the organic label.

17 I am pro-soil. I mean, I don't think

18 anyone here is anti-soil. And as Sue said, you

19 know, my yard looks like the pictures that

20 Harriet put up on the screen, and that is kind of

21 where a lot of my soil is. At the same time, I

22 feel like there is a lot of division in this
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1 community, and I try to be a peacemaker. I like

2 to see compromise, and I understand that this

3 container production is seen as a compromise, but

4 I don't think it reflects the full breadth of the

5 existing community, including, you know,

6 generational and founders of organic farming and

7 their children.

8 There is division across this board. 

9 There is division in the community. There is

10 division on the board of trustees of the organic

11 center, which I participate on. There is

12 division between certifiers, and there is

13 division within certifiers. So I feel like there

14 is a potential opportunity for compromise. I see

15 that in the labeling front.

16 And, you know, last spring I said very

17 clearly that I wanted to vote for something, not

18 against something. And what I would like to vote

19 for is a deeper compromise that allows for some

20 labeling, allows for transparency, and also can

21 set standards. I think there is a lot of great

22 points about the kind of ick factor when we see
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1 highly mechanized, controlled environment

2 agriculture. And I think there is an opportunity

3 to develop standards that address that in terms

4 of organic.

5 And I don't know. I mean, some of the

6 suggestions are that, you know, hydroponic have

7 its own label, sustainable safe or something like

8 that. But the reality is I think there is an

9 intent in those systems to really adhere to the

10 principles of OCPA and the principles of an

11 environmentally productive agriculture, and I

12 think that has to be validated.

13 Soil is not going to go away. And in

14 terms of energy consumption, things like that, I

15 think those are important issues and should be

16 evaluated for every product. You know, if we had

17 an organic strawberry in Maine in the winter, it

18 comes from California. And it may have been

19 grown in the soil, but is that really, you know,

20 accounted for environmentally in terms of its

21 carbon footprint?

22 You know, I grew up, you know, reading
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1 Rodale magazines and, you know, in a way

2 contributing to the community is my dream. I

3 didn't want to work on this issue. I didn't even

4 know it existed, you know, my expertise in things

5 like inerts and sanitizers and stuff like that. 

6 But I feel, again, inclusion is better than

7 exclusion. 

8 You know, I see in the Salinas Valley

9 and other -- dump truck loads of manure being

10 trucked into farms that are growing, you know,

11 organic in the soil. This manure may, in fact,

12 come from CAFO-type organizations.

13 In meeting with, you know, an owner of

14 a very large operation, there -- you know, from

15 his point of view there is not enough, you know,

16 the way he put it, S-H-I-T, to grow organic. And

17 part of the problem was that the land is leased,

18 and there is not the resources to have the kind

19 of I think cycling that we might want to promote. 

20 But either way, that place was fully certified

21 and fully organic.

22 And just to understand that there is
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1 kind of extremes in all of these arenas, and I

2 feel like, again, an opportunity for compromise

3 could -- label compromise could solve some of

4 these issues and provide transparency, and then

5 we can also direct evolution in any system

6 towards a more sustainable and environmentally

7 sound system.

8 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Asa. Lisa?

9 MS. DE LIMA: Well, I'm not sure I can

10 say it any better than Asa just said it. I

11 definitely echo and agree with a lot of what you

12 said, especially about I wish we had had an

13 opportunity to work more on a standard to

14 encourage the types of alternative production

15 systems that do reflect organics, and that I

16 think would resonate with consumers, the same as

17 operations in the ground.

18 Hydroponic operations, like Scott

19 mentioned, they don't all look the same. And I

20 would really like to find a way that we can

21 encourage the ones that are on the end of the

22 spectrum that we are comfortable with.
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1 I heard somebody yesterday in public

2 comment equate folks who aren't solely pro-soil

3 with people that deny climate change, and I took

4 huge offense to that. I'm not denying that

5 organic soil production isn't great for a lot of

6 reasons. I'm definitely an environmentalist

7 first. I got into organics because I was an

8 environmentalist, and I saw organics benefit to

9 help with a lot of different environmental

10 issues. Obviously, climate change is the biggest

11 one, but there is a lot of other ones as well.

12 So I don't think that just because a

13 reduction system doesn't directly nourish the

14 soil in the upper crust of the earth that that

15 inherently makes it a harmful growing approach. 

16 I just think we need all the help we can get in

17 addressing ag's impact on the environment and not

18 just climate change. And I'm at this point not

19 really willing to rule out alternative

20 approaches.

21 Asa touched on labeling. When we

22 first started this conversation, or I got
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1 involved in the conversation two years ago, I was

2 pretty opposed to a label. You know, I talk to

3 and interact with consumers on a daily basis. 

4 You know, I don't have as many consumers as Alan

5 from Natural Grocers was talking about. Maybe a

6 quarter of that, a quarter-million consumers come

7 through our doors.

8 And I initially thought you put

9 another label out there or a version of the USDA

10 organic label and we're just going to create more

11 confusion. And I still think that. I don't --

12 it's not my first choice to put a label out

13 there. To me, that's my compromise position is

14 to put a label out there and let consumers make

15 their choice.

16 I can't really speak for all

17 retailers. We're not a close, tight-knit group. 

18 We don't have a lot of interaction with one

19 another. I only saw comments from, you know, two

20 retailers, and neither of them were

21 pro-hydroponic, so we're not on the same page

22 there. But they both did say that at a minimum
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1 they would like to see labeling transparency, so

2 the consumer can make the choice. And I would

3 echo that sentiment as well.

4 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Lisa. A-Dae?

5 MS. BRIONES: So today is Schkopapani

6 (phonetic) in my village, and it's a day my

7 village celebrates our ancestral connections by

8 going outside and digging holes in the dirt as a

9 community, all 800 of us.

10 Indigenous people have advocated and

11 argued for the protection of our lands, which is

12 a member and I dare say a relative of our tribal

13 community since creation, even if those lands are

14 no longer in our ownership. Being indigenous,

15 being Cochiti, is to advocate for a way of life

16 that connects us to our environment, to our

17 natural and human community, and to our food. 

18 But what we can learn from this

19 collective experience, which is in its 520th

20 year, is that when we make an argument that

21 solely relies on protection of the earth it is

22 consistently defeated one way or another by
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1 whatever fleeting economic interest exists of the

2 time, or even solicits military assault like we

3 saw in Standing Rock, but I digress.

4 Mr. Feldman said that the NOSB must

5 not avoid fires. If I rely solely on my

6 emotional attachment to arguments about

7 protecting the earth, I would be essentially

8 forging a fragile position within the organic

9 community against those outside this community.

10 Perhaps this is a time where we find

11 opportunities to create beneficial partnerships

12 between indigenous people and the organic

13 community. In order to do that, we need to find

14 spaces for these communities to come together.

15 Before us is an argument to limit that

16 space to those who only have soil. Law and

17 regulation is meant to protect groups of people

18 and discourage undesirable behaviors in our

19 community, and I wonder who we are protecting

20 when I see so few tribal communities, tribal

21 people, black farmers, Hispanic farmers, arguing

22 for only -- soil-only operations.
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1 Quite frankly, the legal authority on

2 this issue is conflicting. Unlike what Dan said,

3 I don't think the law is clear. While OCPA

4 limits -- clearly limits hydroponic operations,

5 the NOP has clearly stated it is allowed. So any

6 legal argument one way or another is going to be

7 on shaky ground.

8 So with that, I echo CCOF's position

9 that we should be a community that is inclusive. 

10 And if we take a lesson from nature, biodiversity

11 makes any community stronger, and that includes

12 our organic community. So I support a hydroponic

13 label that will be regulated and standardized

14 under the organic label.

15 DR. THICKE: Thank you, A-Dae. So you

16 can get your tomatoes out. In three minutes, you

17 can hit me with them. Okay.

18 I was milking cows the other day and I

19 saw a frog. Once in a while, I've got to pick up

20 a frog and take it out. And I realized that I

21 have frogs in there; I have bacteria and fungi. 

22 This is a concrete and steel building here. I
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1 have algae. I have millipedes. I have

2 earthworms coming out of the cracks. I have

3 birds that come in and build nests. And my

4 inspector doesn't like it, but I let them do it

5 sometimes anyway.

6 I pass my inspections really well, but

7 I have all these trophic levels in my concrete

8 and steel building that we are talking about for

9 hydroponics. So I think that this trophic level

10 thing is really a diversion. It's really a bogus

11 -- it doesn't mean anything.

12 Like Asa has told us repeatedly,

13 biology is everywhere. On our skin -- we know

14 there are thousands of bacteria species that have

15 been found on skin, a hundred different kinds of

16 algae. Biology is everywhere. To say my milking

17 parlor is soiled because it has all these trophic

18 levels is nonsense, the same way to say that

19 these hydroponic operations that have these

20 things here are soil is nonsense, and I think

21 that we shouldn't get caught into that.

22 And I looked at the CCOF proposal. It
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1 means nothing. It means business as usual. If

2 you're hanging your hat on that, that is no

3 compromise. I think -- I am in favor of soil. I

4 think we've got to compromise in the middle, and

5 I think that others are looking for status quo,

6 and I think that's not good.

7 One more quick thing I wanted to do is

8 Tom has talked about the 1995 recommendation. 

9 And I found the letter from Michael Sligh, and he

10 was there when that happened. He said that they

11 were required to make recommendations on a whole

12 range of things. And they just went through them

13 real quickly, and some of them weren't going to

14 vote for it. But they said as long as they put

15 in a thing that said if -- how was that? If it

16 can meet the standards, then they were okay to

17 vote for it. But they are not in favor -- the

18 rest of the guys were not in favor of it.

19 There was one person they said that

20 was in favor of that thing, of allowing

21 hydroponics if the rules allowed. So I think

22 that really doesn't set any precedent, frankly.
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1 So how am I doing for time? I'm done. 

2 Thank you.

3 One more thing that I can say is I

4 don't like to --

5 (Laughter.)

6 DR. THICKE: All these arguments about

7 water and so on, I call that environmentalist

8 reductionism. I think we have to look at the

9 whole system. Soil is a system, and we're not

10 going to argue about all these things here. We

11 can argue on both sides of them, and I think we

12 just have to look at what organic farming is.

13 I'm one of these old guys, I started

14 farming in 1975 organically. And so I guess

15 that's why I'm on that side.

16 Thank you.

17 So here we are. What do we do next? 

18 Dan, what do you say?

19 DR. SEITZ: Well, one thing that I did

20 hear that was in common among the two different

21 positions that were put forth was the idea of

22 labeling. Not everyone was necessarily
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1 comfortable with labeling, but it did jump out as

2 something of a compromise, and it certainly

3 reflects the idea of transparency, consumer

4 choice, and so forth.

5 So even though I think the paradigms

6 that are reflected in the two views are pretty

7 opposite, that is one area where I felt there was

8 some commonality.

9 DR. THICKE: Okay. Thank you. Emily? 

10 I think we have to decide what we're going to do

11 here, if we're going to vote. Have you got a

12 suggestion?

13 MS. OAKLEY: Yeah. I was just going

14 to mention the time factor of 6:20. So we could

15 discuss more amongst ourselves. I'm not sure how

16 far that will get us. Just in -- I know there

17 was some hope that maybe we could discuss a

18 possibility of a label compromise.

19 I think that that is maybe a little

20 far-fetched. I wish that we could, but I don't

21 think that there is enough consensus on that. 

22 That's just my personal view.
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1 I do want to see us vote, as you all

2 know, on this proposal today. So, yeah.

3 DR. THICKE: Harriet?

4 MS. BEHAR: So a good compromise is

5 typically something nobody likes. Everyone has

6 given up something, and they had to give -- they

7 are not happy. So I have brought this up before. 

8 I know my fellow soil people maybe won't like it,

9 but I'm going to bring up a labeling compromise. 

10 And probably nobody will like it, but I really

11 think it is a compromise. And that would be --

12 and I don't even know if the NOP can do this, but

13 I'm looking again to the regulation.

14 And we have a made with label for

15 processed foods. It does not get the USDA

16 organic seal, but it is a certified organic

17 product. So there could be a hydroponic label

18 produced with organic inputs, and it would be

19 hydroponic with half -- then the label underneath

20 produced with organic or organically approved

21 inputs, or whatever, half the size of the word

22 hydroponic, similar to the made with label.
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1 And it has been a place that many

2 processors have had an organic product. I know

3 it doesn't -- it doesn't necessarily make me

4 happy, but I want to protect that organic seal. 

5 I know that the hydroponic people want that seal,

6 too, but I think that that's a pretty strong

7 compromise for both sides. No seal, but you get

8 the word "organic" there, similar to the made

9 with. 

10 And I think it's a recognition that

11 hydroponic also does not meet all of the

12 requirements as I had in my presentation that a

13 soil-based operation meets.

14 DR. THICKE: So, Harriet, I think that

15 if we were to talk about that, we'd have four

16 hours ahead of us. So I am okay with voting now. 

17 Anybody have a problem with that?

18 MR. BRADMAN: Well, I mean, it looks

19 like if we vote, it's not going to pass. So --

20 DR. THICKE: Are we going to bring a

21 sword out here for you, Asa?

22 MR. BRADMAN: What was that?
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1 DR. THICKE: Are we going to get the

2 sword -- the sword for you?

3 MR. BRADMAN: I would like a sword

4 right now.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. BRADMAN: Maybe I would throw

7 myself on it.

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. BRADMAN: Metaphorically. I'm

10 probably doing that anyway.

11 But if -- I mean, Harriet, what you

12 say I think is intriguing. If it's not going to

13 pass, maybe we should send it back to committee. 

14 I know that everyone would groan, and then, you

15 know, maybe an idea like Harriet just proposed

16 can be considered.

17 I know that's probably not popular,

18 but it's still at least something I think that

19 should be said out loud.

20 DR. THICKE: Emily? And then who was

21 next? Dan.

22 MS. OAKLEY: Well, I'm definitely not
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1 in favor of a labeling compromise, which I guess

2 you guys already know. But I don't think that

3 voting on this proposal precludes further

4 conversation on that, not that I want to have to

5 be involved in it, but I think it's important to

6 vote on this proposal for the public stakeholders

7 or the community at large to see where the NOSB

8 falls on this issue.

9 And, in fact, if there really isn't an

10 ability to have a compromise on containers, it

11 actually makes me not want to vote for that

12 motion either, because that's a huge compromise

13 for me, and I don't even want to see that. So it

14 will have to -- it will give me something to

15 think about.

16 DR. THICKE: Dan was next, and then

17 Sue.

18 DR. SEITZ: Well, I don't think it's

19 that hard to count the votes, given the different

20 feedback that people -- I mean, just counting the

21 votes, I can say pretty certainly that any of

22 these motions are likely to fail.
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1 And what I have heard from a number of

2 people is the possibility that there may be some

3 compromises here. I have heard the idea of

4 labeling. I don't know if it would be along the

5 lines that Harriet proposed. I have heard the

6 idea of if we are going to allow hydroponics that

7 it should be still a fairly strict standard,

8 along a continuum of potential practices out

9 there.

10 So I don't agree that every compromise

11 is necessarily a lose-lose situation. Sometimes

12 groups can work through very difficult issues and

13 reach a higher-order decision sometimes. I'm not

14 sure if this one is possible, but it can happen. 

15 So it seems to me in the face of the probable

16 rejection of the motions that, why not send it

17 back especially since there are some areas that

18 may be --

19 DR. THICKE: Sue had a comment.

20 MS. BAIRD: First of all, and this is

21 question for NOP, is there -- do we have a legal

22 right to create a new label under the law?
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1 DR. TUCKER: That's a good question. 

2 I think -- so, first, before I dive into

3 answering that question, first, I'd just like to

4 thank both everyone who gave public comment on

5 this issue, but also just the thoughtfulness and

6 passion that went into all of the board's

7 comments. So thank you for that. There is a lot

8 of soul and thought there. So I just want to say

9 that.

10 I think there are some really, really

11 interesting ideas and alternatives that have been

12 raised through public comment and through this

13 discussion. So I think what the next -- for us

14 the next step would be -- in that kind of idea

15 would be to sort of regroup after the meeting and

16 talk about what the next steps might be here in

17 terms of the subcommittee work. What does that

18 look like moving forward? Because I think a lot

19 of interesting ideas have been raised that are

20 worth continued discussion.

21 DR. THICKE: Tom, you had your hand

22 up.
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1 MS. BAIRD: But I wanted --

2 DR. THICKE: And then I want to say

3 something after. Oh, did you -- you didn't --

4 oh, you didn't do it. I'm sorry. Sue had her

5 hand up.

6 MS. BAIRD: No. Well, I wanted to

7 state that I think the public deserves us to make

8 a vote. And I --

9 (Applause.)

10 MS. BAIRD: I was the one who stated I

11 hate more than anything this me versus thee, but

12 I think we've drug this on forever. We need to

13 take a public vote.

14 DR. THICKE: I would agree. Tom?

15 MR. CHAPMAN: If there's a possibility

16 for a compromise that would get the votes, I am

17 supportive. But if there is not, and it is going

18 to continue this on as another agenda item to

19 bring up in discord in another six months, then I

20 think we should vote now.

21 DR. THICKE: Okay. Did you have your

22 hand up, Harriet?
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: Yeah. I also am of

2 the opinion -- I am of the opinion we should

3 vote. I think we have multiple motions, so it's

4 not clear where people are on the multiple

5 motions. And I also feel like, man, how long are

6 we going to drag this out? Let's just go for it

7 and see where we are. Let's go for it.

8 DR. THICKE: Harriet, do you have

9 something short to say?

10 MS. BEHAR: So if we do vote and it

11 fails, you never know, does -- we do have

12 containers still as a discussion document where

13 at least in a container system, which hydroponics

14 are, we could still work on it in some way or

15 fashion, at least some aspects of hydroponic, in

16 building some sort of -- but, I mean, there's no

17 saying how that might work out. 

18 We might not even be able to decide on

19 artificial light or recycling or any of those

20 things that were just in that discussion

21 document. But hydroponic is a lot more than

22 that, those systems. There is, you know, the
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1 whole energy thing and whatever we want to

2 discuss. 

3 But in any case, I think it still

4 would be somewhat on the work agenda through that

5 discussion document. Am I correct? I see Paul

6 kind of going like this. I don't know for sure.

7 DR. THICKE: Okay. Ashley has got

8 something, and then I want to follow you. Go

9 ahead.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay. Yeah. I think it

11 is important to take a vote on this because I

12 think it will show the community how divided our

13 board is. But I would encourage us, after this,

14 if we think there is some type of consensus that

15 we can reach on a label, I would like for us to

16 explore that, because, honestly, if this -- it's

17 a stalemate, basically. 

18 If anybody can count the votes, it's a

19 stalemate. Nothing will change. So it's going

20 to be the same fight forever. So if we can

21 figure out something reasonable, I would really

22 like to see us work on that in the future.
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1 DR. THICKE: So I am going to make a

2 motion on aeroponics right now. I make the

3 motion to prohibit aeroponic production systems

4 from organic certification.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: The motion is there. 

6 You would either call the question if you want to

7 end debate on it. The motion is already there.

8 DR. THICKE: That's right. Okay.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Yeah.

10 DR. THICKE: I will call the question.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: So the question has been

12 called. There isn't a second. Is there a second

13 for it?

14 DR. THICKE: There is one on record, I

15 believe.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: So calling the question

17 is a motion to end debate, basically, and proceed

18 --

19 PARTICIPANT: I'll second it.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: -- to the vote. So

21 there's a second there. Is there an objection to

22 the motion? If there is no objection, then we'll
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1 just proceed to the vote. If there is an

2 objection, then we will take a vote. It takes a

3 two-thirds vote to end discussion and move to the

4 vote.

5 There is no objection to the call the

6 question, so we will just go to the question,

7 which, sorry, I wasn't ready for it. So it's

8 going to take me a second to pull it up.

9 So the first motion before us is on

10 aeroponics. So the motion reads -- 

11 (Simultaneous speaking.)

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Yeah. I would prefer to

13 go off -- if you have the written proposals, to

14 go to that. Can you pull up the actual written

15 proposal? I'd rather pull off that.

16 All right. I'm going to read it and

17 then it will come up. Aeroponics. Discussion of

18 aeroponic systems do not require -- the

19 definitions come later. I guess the definitions

20 are just in the document. So the proposal is, as

21 defined in this document, motion to prohibit

22 aeroponic production systems from organic
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1 certification.

2 The motion was made by Emily and

3 seconded by Harriet. It comes as a seconded

4 motion from the subcommittee, and the voting will

5 start with Dan. He's in the hot seat. 

6 A yes vote on this means you are

7 voting to prohibit aeroponics as defined here,

8 and a no vote is you are rejecting this proposal,

9 this specific proposal. And just so we're clear,

10 the glossary here, aeroponics is defined as a

11 variation of hydroponic plant production, which

12 plant roots are suspended in air and misted with

13 a nutrient solution. 

14 Dan.

15 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

16 MR. RICE: Yes.

17 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

18 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

19 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

20 DR. THICKE: Yes.

21 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

22 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.
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1 MR. BRADMAN: Abstain.

2 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

3 MR. ELA: Yes.

4 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

5 MR. BUIE: Yes.

6 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: The Chair votes yes. 

8 The tally is 14 yes, zero no, one abstention. 

9 The motion passes.

10 The second motion -- can you continue

11 scrolling? Is on aquaponics. Yeah. I'm going

12 to first read the definition of aquaponics that

13 is put forward in the majority position.

14 Aquaponics. The recirculating

15 hydroponic plant production system in which

16 plants are grown in nutrients originating from

17 aquatic animals, wastewater, which may include

18 the use of bacteria to improve the availabilities

19 of these nutrients to plants. The plant improve

20 water quality by use of nutrients, and water is

21 then recirculated back to the aquatic animals.

22 The motion, which comes seconded from
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1 the subcommittee, is a motion to prohibit

2 aquaponic production systems from organic

3 certification. The motion was made by Harriet

4 and seconded by Jesse. 

5 A yes vote would be to accept this

6 proposal to prohibit aquaponics. A no vote would

7 be to reject this proposal. The voting will

8 start with Scott. Sorry. Is there a question?

9 MS. OAKLEY: Can we have further

10 discussion?

11 MR. CHAPMAN: We've technically called

12 the question, which would have been all four

13 votes, but I'm fine with -- I mean, yeah, let's

14 have a discussion if it's necessary.

15 MS. OAKLEY: Okay. Just a quick one. 

16 I just am confused if there are people that are

17 able to vote to prohibit aeroponics, you know, is

18 that going to fall across the rest of their

19 voting as well? I'm not sure what the

20 differentiation would be. Does that not make

21 sense?

22 MR. CHAPMAN: No.
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1 MS. OAKLEY: Okay. If you can vote to

2 prohibit aeroponics, what is the parsing of the

3 difference between some of the other systems that

4 we have been discussing?

5 MR. CHAPMAN: I stand by the 2010

6 standard. That is the basis of my voting right

7 now, and I have found that system to be

8 disapproved by the 2010 system -- the 2010

9 recommendation.

10 MR. RICE: I would echo that as well.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Francis, you are still

12 technically running the meeting now. Do we want

13 to proceed to a vote or --

14 DR. THICKE: I'm sorry?

15 MR. CHAPMAN: You're still technically

16 running the meeting right now. Do you want to

17 proceed to a vote or continue --

18 DR. THICKE: I'm not real sure what

19 you're talking about, to tell you the truth.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MS. OAKLEY: Just that we voted to

22 prohibit aeroponics.
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1 DR. THICKE: Yes.

2 MS. OAKLEY: Which is a system within

3 the hydroponics family and -- in my view, and I'm

4 wondering what the differentiation might be for

5 someone who can vote to prohibit aeroponics but

6 then might subsequently vote to allow

7 hydroponics. I was just wondering what -- they

8 could help me understand their thinking.

9 DR. THICKE: Okay. Does anybody want

10 to respond?

11 MS. OAKLEY: I mean, I think they have

12 already answered that. If they feel that they

13 have answered it with the 2010 recommendation, if

14 that's their answer, then that's what they are

15 telling me.

16 DR. THICKE: Okay. So are we going to

17 have any more discussion, or do we want to -- any

18 further discussion? Okay. Then I guess we can

19 proceed to the next vote.

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. So I'm not going

21 to read the definition of aquaponic production

22 again. I'm just going to read the motion. The
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536

1 motion is to prohibit aquaponic production

2 systems from organic certification. Motion by

3 Harriet; seconded by Jesse.

4 A yes vote is to prohibit. A no vote

5 is to reject -- is to accept the proposal to

6 prohibit. A no vote is to reject the proposal. 

7 The voting will start with Scott.

8 MR. RICE: No.

9 MS. BAIRD: No.

10 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

11 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

12 DR. THICKE: Yes.

13 MS. BRIONES: No.

14 MS. DE LIMA: No.

15 MR. BRADMAN: No.

16 MS. MOSSO: No.

17 MR. ELA: Yes.

18 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

19 MR. BUIE: Yes.

20 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

21 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: The Chair votes no. 
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1 Seven yes, eight no. The motion fails.

2 DR. THICKE: So we are ready for the

3 next motion. 

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Do we want further

5 discussion on the next motion, or should we just

6 proceed to the vote? 

7 DR. THICKE: Does anybody want further

8 discussion? I guess we can --

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. Can we scroll to

10 that? I don't believe I need to read the

11 definition here. So I guess a container is

12 defined as any vessel or associated equipment

13 used to house growing media, and the complete

14 root structure of terrestrial plants to prevent

15 roots from contacting soil or the surface beneath

16 the vessel such as, but not limited to, pots,

17 troves, plastic bags, floors, mats, et cetera.

18 The motion from the subcommittee on

19 container production reads as a motion that

20 container production, to be certified organic, a

21 limit of 20 percent of the plant's nitrogen

22 requirements can be supplied by liquid feeding
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1 and a limit of 50 percent of the plant's nitrogen

2 requirements can be added to the container after

3 the crop has been planted.

4 For perennials, the nitrogen feeding

5 limit is calculated on an annual basis. 

6 Transplants, ornamentals, herbs, spouts, fodder,

7 and aquatic plants are exempted from these

8 requirements. The motion was made by Francis and

9 seconded by Steve. 

10 A yes vote on this is to pass this

11 proposal and define container production as such. 

12 A no vote is to reject the proposal.

13 The voting will start with Sue.

14 MS. BAIRD: No.

15 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

16 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, only because I

17 worked on this compromise.

18 DR. THICKE: Yes.

19 MS. BRIONES: No.

20 MS. DE LIMA: No.

21 MR. BRADMAN: No.

22 MS. MOSSO: No.
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1 MR. ELA: Yes.

2 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

3 MR. BUIE: Yes.

4 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

5 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

6 MR. RICE: No.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: The Chair votes no. 

8 Seven yes, eight no. The motion fails.

9 DR. THICKE: So next we have the

10 motion on hydroponics. Proceed to the vote. 

11 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. Go ahead.

12 MS. BEHAR: So this is roots in water,

13 correct?

14 MR. CHAPMAN: The --

15 MS. BEHAR: Not necessarily.

16 MR. CHAPMAN: The definition in this

17 proposal, hydroponics, for the purposes of this

18 proposal, any container production system that

19 does not meet the standard of limit of 20 percent

20 of the plant's nitrogen requirement being

21 supplied by liquid feeding, and a limit of 50

22 percent of the plant's nitrogen requirement being
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1 added to the container after the crop has been

2 planted.

3 MS. BEHAR: Okay.

4 MR. CHAPMAN: Okay. So the motion is

5 -- motion that any container production system

6 that does not meet the standard of a limit of 20

7 percent of the plant's nitrogen requirement being

8 supplied by liquid feeding, and a limit of 50

9 percent of the plant's nitrogen requirement being

10 added to the container after the crop has been

11 planted is defined as hydroponic and should not

12 be allowed as certified organic.

13 For perennials, the nitrogen feeding

14 limit is calculated on an annual basis. 

15 Transplants, ornamentals, herbs, sprouts, fodder,

16 aquatic plants are exempt from these

17 requirements. The motion was made by Jesse and

18 seconded by Dave.

19 A yes vote on this motion is accept

20 this proposal. A no vote is to reject it. 

21 The voting will start with Harriet.

22 MS. BEHAR: Yes.
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541

1 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

2 DR. THICKE: Yes.

3 MS. BRIONES: No.

4 MS. DE LIMA: No.

5 MR. BRADMAN: No.

6 MS. MOSSO: No.

7 MR. ELA: Yes.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

9 MR. BUIE: Yes.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

11 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

12 MR. RICE: No.

13 MS. BAIRD: No.

14 MR. CHAPMAN: The Chair votes no. 

15 Seven yes, eight no. The motion fails.

16 DR. THICKE: Tom, do you want to go on

17 today, or do you want to wait?

18 MR. CHAPMAN: I would propose that we

19 table this last item and we take it up first

20 thing in the morning. Harriet and Francis, are

21 you okay with that? Okay.

22 With that, we will recess until
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542

1 tomorrow. Tomorrow our day starts at 8:30, and

2 we will be starting with the Crops Subcommittee,

3 continuing with CACS, and then proceeding with

4 the agenda as listed. 

5 We are now in recess.

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

7 went off the record at 6:43 p.m.)

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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A

A-Dae 1:14 324:18

325:11 370:2 395:2

513:4 515:15

a.k.a 194:6

a.m 1:9 5:2

abbreviated 254:20

Abby 3:16 116:10

121:13,14,17 126:4

abdicated 26:6

abide 487:8

ability 9:20 92:2,3

105:14 169:10,17

195:17 205:16 440:18

446:22 456:19 523:10

able 23:22 24:18 25:8

31:14 165:10 214:16

228:5 256:19 259:2

269:9,10 289:13

293:16,17,20 297:18

311:10 315:22 404:18

408:17 415:10 431:22

445:8 487:8 527:18

533:17

above-entitled 282:10

419:6 542:6

abridging 316:9,21

abroad 313:22 315:7

absence 140:20 361:20

413:15 505:15

absent 313:4 337:22

342:10 350:1 356:10

359:4 372:12

absolutely 15:5 208:7

209:12 236:6 279:17

486:7

absolved 90:8

absorption 159:20

160:1 274:12

abstain 334:21 349:6

349:22 532:1

abstention 335:5 532:8

abundantly 36:21

abuse 145:3

AC21 38:14

ACA 265:20 266:11

267:18 268:12,19

420:19

Acadian 2:18 133:16

137:18

acaricides 340:21

343:8 344:15

ACAs 268:4

accept 32:10 55:3

141:12 209:4 216:20

255:2 301:7 533:5

536:5 540:19

acceptable 35:12 337:7

430:13 433:14 454:6

accepted 190:2

accepting 15:2 105:3

accepts 289:19

access 31:8,11 150:21

318:15 445:18 447:3

456:18 482:12 500:9

506:16

accessibility 143:22

447:1

accommodate 120:12

120:15

accompanying 316:2

447:13

accomplish 231:20

accomplished 168:22

457:8

accord 200:18

account 500:16

accountable 122:22

267:9

accounted 508:20

accounts 105:8

accreditation 4:2

119:10 122:12

Accredited 2:14 265:14

420:19

accrued 206:10

accumulate 435:14,15

accumulated 276:20

277:22

accumulation 38:3

347:9,14 435:11

accurate 35:8,17 135:3

135:6 338:7

accurately 58:19

acetic 333:21,21 401:18

achieve 51:5,14 59:13

83:16 164:7,14

169:16 172:17 207:15

achieved 59:2 451:22

acid 4:10 102:4 154:22

155:8 170:12 180:1

196:18 197:22 198:10

198:13 222:20 231:4

256:12 272:8 328:18

333:21,21 340:18,22

341:6,12 342:12

343:7,8 378:1

acid-based 330:16

acids 4:12 221:20 222:4

222:5,10,11,17,19,21

328:19 351:7,11,18

353:5 401:18,18

acknowledge 8:21 50:4

acquiesce 379:10

acquire 250:2

acre 63:22 276:9

435:13,14 439:15

acreage 144:12

acreages 460:7,7

acres 210:17 244:20

269:3 270:22 285:3,5

312:21 390:19 393:3

393:17 421:14 460:14

460:20 461:1,4

475:18

act 7:8 89:10 207:12

219:17 271:13 278:21

321:19 366:7 403:13

458:14 464:16 470:8

473:7,16

acted 293:13

actinomyocetes 447:15

action 41:5 101:6 106:4

141:4 192:12 197:19

208:20 361:19 380:21

478:1

actions 127:12 256:2

active 45:17 124:11

190:20 191:5 458:22

actively 46:21 47:8,15

actives 46:1

activities 268:11

468:19 473:10

activity 190:16 197:20

223:15 249:7 394:3

438:5 448:11 468:21

actual 449:15 530:14

adapt 117:11 234:2

284:14 432:1

adapted 422:3

adapting 232:15

add 8:20 13:20 27:2

69:19 72:2 100:15

106:2 129:7 139:1

141:13 148:1 187:15

188:2 226:14 227:15

380:22 382:6 392:3

397:21 398:1,5,6

411:19 417:11,13

added 116:21 142:2

147:12 166:18 205:11

392:7 400:21 413:1

431:4,6 433:19 435:3

441:7 454:2 502:11

538:2 540:1,10

addendum 374:12,14

adding 147:9 227:13

492:11

addition 170:11 182:17

196:21 221:21 222:21

241:22 371:22 374:16

400:7 403:5 443:8,14

450:4,16,19 453:12

453:15 454:1

additional 57:19,22

118:20 119:7 120:22

143:4 145:17 152:6

192:12 255:13,14

261:12 268:6,10

363:9 379:9,18 384:3

392:7,18 402:1 404:2

421:7 446:7 452:2,7

Additionally 109:15

361:15 362:3 363:9

407:16 489:19

additions 255:2

additives 159:4,6 168:2

168:13

address 54:5 100:10

142:18 147:4 168:9

191:6 196:15 197:19

205:15 210:18 216:1

265:18 280:19 355:4

399:9 410:12 422:16

445:15 446:10,22

448:1,9 452:21 453:2

454:6 473:22 508:3

addressed 41:19 148:3

152:19 157:10 267:4

314:1 318:10 408:16

450:22

addresses 37:14 39:4

addressing 108:6 122:5

131:21 139:6 152:3

163:22 265:15 445:20

511:17

adds 104:9

adequate 41:12 385:1

432:4

adhere 54:18 136:9,10

285:18 508:9

adheres 137:5

adjacent 206:16

Adjourn 4:22

adjusting 479:22

administered 160:8

administration 153:16

Administrator 2:6

99:11

admitted 240:16

adopted 81:10

adoption 403:12

advance 6:3

advancement 250:7

advances 233:9

advantage 173:7

377:14

advantages 205:6

adverse 389:5 404:9

advised 156:20

advisement 342:22

advisory 2:1 57:5 111:5
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341:3

advocacy 107:19 108:1

130:5

advocate 24:8 111:2

117:19 331:3 513:15

advocated 17:13

513:10

advocating 432:4

aerial 314:10

aero 493:7

aerobic 404:21 405:4

405:19,22

aerobically 405:11

aeroponic 97:13 103:7

140:22 432:16 529:3

530:18,22

aeroponics 20:1 58:5

84:2,4,9 313:8 432:11

450:16,18 529:2

530:10,17 531:7,10

533:17 534:2,22

535:5

Aeroponics/Hydropo...

4:19

Affairs 133:16 254:4

AFFCO 305:7 311:20

affect 167:9 170:14

394:20 499:7

affective 172:16

affidavits 365:3

affiliate 100:6

Affiliated 3:11 283:3,8

affiliation 6:5 8:1 18:9

36:1 40:6 49:19 57:1

81:1 93:12 99:8

121:15 126:7 129:21

133:11 142:12 146:22

149:21 154:5 177:1

179:12 182:5 189:11

196:5 200:3 204:21

221:2 225:5 240:8

248:12 265:12 273:5

282:18 312:9 315:17

affiliations 6:8

afford 150:12 475:16,17

afforded 208:11

affords 70:11

afternoon 7:5 254:1

283:1 291:10 302:14

312:10

Ag 2:17 291:11 374:15

ag's 511:17

agar-agar 107:7

age 304:15

agencies 38:12 170:18

Agency 210:9

agenda 41:18 42:7

43:15,22 108:3 131:8

139:3,9 142:2,16

147:11,13 148:2

257:12 282:5 320:14

323:17 372:6 403:18

418:20 419:2,4

420:10 526:18 528:4

542:4

ages 69:11 456:19

ago 27:12 40:14 69:9

215:2 235:5,6 391:7

475:2 512:1

agree 30:7 64:14 114:8

123:7 124:19 139:16

197:22 212:19 219:2

377:9,12 379:3,8,15

379:16 424:22 468:4

474:10 495:17 510:11

524:10 526:14

agreed 72:8 232:1

300:3 371:9 446:9

476:14 480:16 487:6

agreement 245:2

395:21 467:7

agrees 60:1 116:19

265:20

agricultural 2:19

143:13 198:3 221:6

256:13 371:14 407:15

413:17 460:16 495:8

500:6

agriculturally 290:7

agriculture 1:1 38:8

124:14 144:16 221:9

243:19 283:18 286:3

286:4 289:6 363:12

366:9 376:1 382:16

394:11,13,18 407:2

414:11 457:18 460:1

465:1 467:18 470:9

485:11,17 486:5

496:2,8,14 508:2,11

Agriculture's 57:5

agro 256:6

agro- 37:20

agrochemical 110:7,20

agroinfiltration 123:3

agronomic 446:10

agronomist 312:20

ahead 60:7 108:22

139:19 257:6 259:8

283:22 328:6 351:16

374:6 376:9 378:12

381:10 394:12 430:20

502:11 521:16 528:9

539:11

aid 111:17 147:16

166:13 191:9 206:18

aides 159:22

aids 166:15,16 167:7

air 173:8 432:13 531:12

Alan 512:4

Albert 252:12

Albuquerque 36:4,13

alcohol 247:6 296:8

375:11,13 394:21

alcohols 4:17 241:4

246:12 291:13 292:1

297:3 301:13 374:4,9

374:17 375:6,7,17,19

385:13 392:4 396:19

398:1

Aldo 145:2

alert 258:20 259:11

algae 42:22 105:11

133:19 134:17 448:21

516:1,16

algaecide 321:12

algicide 271:16

align 92:19

aligned 32:11 94:1

alike 488:20

aliphatic 375:7

alive 174:10

alkali 351:12

Alliance 2:12,19,20

18:12 107:20 113:4

130:2 198:21 199:1

199:18 420:21

allow 44:15 48:11 84:3

148:6 191:12 201:12

201:18 202:1 219:7

266:9 270:6 310:17

417:18 445:17 476:4

505:11,12 524:6

535:6

allowance 227:17

269:11 421:22 443:6

allowances 150:22

allowed 6:13 20:4,5,14

28:2,5 31:1 32:5 33:1

34:12 42:9 44:17

45:17 50:9,19 51:19

60:2 61:19 67:6,7

94:10 105:1 106:7,17

148:19 155:22 157:2

163:3 191:19 208:7

231:2 301:8,14

321:10 354:12 358:6

371:13 384:1 401:4

403:10 411:10 422:19

431:2 432:5 441:9

447:6 456:14 472:15

482:10,11,12 487:15

491:6 505:3 515:5

517:21 540:12

allowing 8:3 24:3 29:21

30:8 119:3 154:9

257:16 316:21 355:20

447:3 505:2,3 517:20

allows 123:11 165:1

213:20 224:1 507:19

507:20

Almanac 145:3

aloe 250:22

Aloha 154:3

alongside 56:11

altered 214:3

altering 394:20

alternately 452:20

alternative 56:9,10

162:10 193:21 223:6

230:22 261:2 306:10

337:1 348:9,12 362:2

390:6 406:9,19

429:17 445:2 479:5

510:14 511:19

Alternatively 110:11

alternatives 160:19,22

170:22 257:2 259:14

382:12 387:8,11

390:3 406:3 525:11

altogether 460:22

amazed 46:17

amazing 127:5 196:8

478:2

amenable 209:9

amend 417:9

amended 473:2

amending 107:9 232:14

amendment 316:6,15

371:20 400:4,7

451:12

amendments 29:2

351:10 354:9 358:3

360:22

America 79:7 188:19

302:18

American 150:2 243:5

276:9 493:2

amidated 180:11

182:20 183:2,4,5,6

186:12,17

amidation 187:11

ammonia 150:21 207:3

ammonium 222:4,12,22

amount 11:1 86:7,15

103:19 114:9 135:4

135:17,20 137:10

169:21 228:13 257:19

269:4 271:2 277:17

283:6 286:15 480:14

503:6,10

amounting 270:22

amounts 50:19 63:4
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194:13 284:20

amphibians 345:8

AMS 211:8 429:21,22

430:4

anaerobic 4:18 104:15

399:18,22 401:3,8,19

402:12 403:3,5 404:2

404:11,14,16,19

405:3,10,17 406:2,11

406:18 407:8 408:14

410:11,16,19 415:3

416:1 417:12,14,18

420:5

analogous 221:22

analyses 405:7

analysis 91:18

analyzed 157:13

anaphylaxis 251:3

ancestral 513:7

anchor 10:16

and/or 147:16 295:2

Andaluz 2:8 18:7 36:2,3

40:2

Anderson 2:8 172:20

177:3,4 178:21

244:20

Andreas 3:3 269:17

273:3,4,6

Andy 2:19 210:7 220:22

221:1,4

anecdotal 16:10 65:9

angering 53:7

animal 104:16 150:1,13

150:16 152:13 190:22

206:14 248:16 252:5

372:1 401:8 402:6

405:2 409:10 414:21

432:22 465:9

animals 10:10 37:9

56:14 94:4 150:3

152:16 153:5,22

224:8 252:7 329:6

433:5 473:12 532:17

532:21

Anja 2:8 172:20 176:21

176:22 177:3

Anja's 183:2

annotating 107:6

annotation 100:12,16

101:5 165:17 224:1

263:2 301:13 336:20

337:2,8,8,18 341:22

342:4 345:14 355:12

381:7

annotations 348:7

annual 115:17 122:15

135:15 207:18 355:21

431:8 433:22 441:12

538:5 540:14

annually 269:13

Annville 225:9

answer 6:21 18:2 35:4

45:3 61:8 65:11 166:2

237:3 239:14 240:22

297:14,15 314:5,16

390:8 395:9,10 420:3

535:14

answered 336:5 400:22

535:12,13

answering 96:15 464:4

525:3

answers 6:20 140:4

290:9 338:21

ant 155:9

anti-smoker 246:16

anti-soil 506:18

antibiotic 104:16

anticipate 146:2 172:6

antithetical 32:11

387:12

antithetically 388:17

ants 155:9 341:10,17

anybody 157:13 188:5

265:3 286:8 330:7,9

334:3 425:21 441:17

521:17 528:18 535:9

537:7

anyone's 292:7

anyway 29:19 46:14

233:22 299:20 384:10

486:21 516:5 522:10

apart 68:4 409:3

APHIS 212:7

appalled 32:4,15

appalling 33:13

apparent 169:13 407:11

apparently 60:1 85:14

308:16 430:8

appear 59:22 160:14

166:8 263:13

appearance 191:13,14

425:3

appears 29:18 56:10

103:20 134:16

applaud 425:4

applauded 50:12

Applause 494:20 526:9

apple 177:17 179:20

271:1

apples 269:22 270:19

270:21 369:12 393:16

393:17

applicability 146:9

applicable 89:16,16,17

140:20 233:5 267:11

328:10 335:13 366:8

451:2,15 453:7

488:17 489:1

application 37:19 146:8

165:22 184:15 223:13

223:18 355:9,20

401:6 406:22 407:19

411:12

applications 162:9

168:11,15 181:21

206:5 361:12,22

394:13 409:13

applied 52:12,22

103:19 104:13,19

152:16 161:14 223:2

266:13 321:17 390:5

390:6 410:1 413:3

434:7 503:13

apply 132:14 329:18

342:20 407:20

applying 106:19 136:20

268:2

appointed 492:21

appreciate 8:10 101:12

103:1 118:18 120:18

121:20 141:1,22

142:5 143:1 146:6

189:19 193:10 195:22

201:1 220:11 237:5

260:1,3 293:11

306:11 442:8 456:2

appreciated 226:7

419:20,22

appreciates 133:21

147:8

appreciating 121:3

approach 11:3 14:6

54:1 137:14 150:9

151:17,21 492:20

504:14 511:15

approaches 51:5,6

106:16 485:16 511:20

approaching 26:15

appropriate 50:10 60:3

61:13 110:22 112:17

113:1 190:10 203:3

218:10 263:3 382:10

408:13 411:15,17

413:13 505:9

appropriately 331:8

approval 155:4 300:15

305:10 310:12 311:8

337:2 408:13 457:2

approve 13:9,10,13

301:10 417:19

approved 43:18 109:12

182:19 223:12 228:21

249:2,5,21 251:18

296:20 297:5 298:11

298:15 299:1 300:7

302:3 305:7,9 338:9

358:21 375:16 378:16

378:18 392:17 395:13

395:17 456:22 465:19

465:21 468:3,6

520:20

approves 392:19

approximately 135:13

135:17 172:16 254:8

254:13

April 159:18 184:22

400:3 497:8

aquaponic 9:18 97:13

103:8 120:7 140:22

200:10 201:14,19

202:6,10 203:2 204:4

204:13 205:21 209:5

209:7 429:8,16

431:10 433:9 461:16

462:9 533:2 535:21

536:1

aquaponically 85:12,22

209:12

aquaponics 20:1 24:14

39:17 200:8 201:8

203:10 205:2,5,16

206:4 207:14,15

208:5 313:9 428:19

432:19 456:12 462:7

462:13 476:4 490:11

493:7 502:15 532:11

532:12,14 533:6

aquatic 224:4,8 329:5

432:22 433:5 434:2

441:14 473:12 532:17

532:21 538:7 540:16

aquiculture 57:7

arable 447:1

arbitrary 59:9 81:15

135:5 191:7 488:4

Arcadian 133:21

134:22

area 115:2 132:15

137:15 184:16 238:5

249:20 253:2 276:12

391:4,14 433:12

467:9 469:1 519:7

areas 9:21 114:21

138:2 147:14 150:21

155:3 188:21 199:10

221:13 223:7,14

227:8 250:5 288:21

345:5 420:22 447:2,2

456:20 524:17

arenas 510:1

argue 59:21 497:13

518:10,11
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

546

argued 35:5 80:7

317:19 513:11

arguing 514:21

argument 60:21 157:14

317:15 383:4 415:2

457:14 498:11 499:9

513:20 514:15 515:6

arguments 68:5 124:21

127:16 318:3 388:2

514:6 518:6

arises 41:8

Arizona 86:12 498:7

Arkansas 309:8 474:15

army 174:5

arose 232:17

ARSENAULT 2:1

article 210:11 211:15

211:21 215:8

articles 55:20 162:2

articulated 115:21

articulating 113:8

artificial 176:6 440:20

478:15 527:19

Asa 1:14 13:5 25:11

71:17 86:3,4 88:13

91:4 119:19 120:2

124:16 146:17 176:18

203:21 234:16 238:8

276:5 286:1 287:16

327:7 351:16 352:17

353:2 378:9,11 381:4

385:14 506:9 510:8

510:10 511:21 516:12

521:21

Asa's 121:3 237:11

ascophyllum 134:18

135:4,13,15 136:6,14

137:4 138:5

Ashby 2:9 282:3 312:7

315:13,18,18 319:2,9

320:10

Ashley 1:12 62:14 86:3

87:12 208:13 219:13

229:5 294:13,14

297:11 306:5 319:5

331:10 349:7 352:14

377:11 393:4 424:10

426:9 490:17 492:17

528:7

Ashley's 393:14

aside 11:6 90:6

asked 29:16 32:18

33:17 43:14,21 44:20

64:19 69:18 71:4

165:3 209:1 234:18

235:9,13 299:5,9

336:4 391:18 408:5

429:7 434:21 445:5

447:21 448:3 460:16

469:10 479:13

asking 6:4 17:7,11

44:19 61:4 94:14

124:17 211:2 230:18

260:1 301:4 313:11

378:3 443:20

ASPCA 3:6 150:2 152:7

aspects 151:20 527:15

assault 514:2

assemble 316:11

assert 403:21

assertion 190:19

assess 143:15

assessed 269:12,13

assessment 30:8

118:10 143:20 403:14

403:16

assessments 384:6

assigned 28:9

assimilate 482:2

assist 266:18

assists 194:9

associate 2:5 99:10

202:3,4 505:6

associated 45:19

388:21,21 411:4

413:8 537:12

association 2:9,14 3:2

3:4,5,15 8:7 36:7

79:16 93:15 100:14

138:15 159:5 167:5

168:4 177:5,8 178:19

193:6 254:5 260:16

265:15 420:19

Association's 260:4,7

268:9

assume 38:17 43:18

assuming 43:17 276:12

276:15,22 277:1

407:22

assumptions 436:2

assurance 122:21

211:9 227:19

assuring 103:3 106:6

asterisk 15:20

astringent 93:20

Atlantic 137:18,21

atmosphere 497:3

attached 484:9

attaching 493:12

attachment 514:6

attacks 6:14

Attapulgite 102:1

attempt 25:19 39:8

446:1 454:4 494:15

attempted 266:11

attempts 215:2 348:9

448:7

attendance 46:21

attended 67:19

attention 122:11 130:8

259:12,12 314:2

359:10 421:21

attest 365:3 379:6

attorney 200:7

ATTRA 306:16

attract 345:9

attraction 477:20

attributable 163:6

audience 188:6 377:15

audit 122:14,15 268:3

318:17

auditors 192:13,17

Aurora 314:3,6 315:6

authorities 159:12

authority 413:12 515:1

authority's 408:13

availabilities 532:18

availability 100:16

143:21 249:19 433:1

available 105:19 132:10

132:10,21 139:19

162:11 177:12 178:9

178:10 179:7 186:5

201:4 232:16 250:1

262:3,11 280:18

285:8 304:22 306:19

307:19 311:21 361:10

362:9,18 363:4 364:4

372:8 380:17 400:14

422:2 437:20 475:6

avenues 104:20

average 173:12 436:2

491:11

avoid 55:19,22 224:14

514:5

avoiding 452:18 482:18

482:18

await 150:12

awaiting 41:5 156:15

403:15

aware 26:22 38:13

136:13 160:12 165:12

185:5 278:11 463:8

awesome 415:18

B

b 1:8 328:8 335:11

451:3

B1 4:15 117:1 357:16

360:15 361:1,7,12,17

361:22 362:2,4 364:1

366:5

back 7:20,21 32:3,6,19

33:12 34:19 52:6,14

59:10 62:16 74:19

76:6,10 94:7 125:13

125:19 129:5 131:8

133:3,4 140:9 145:17

149:11 152:21 158:7

158:17 188:17 217:3

217:12 223:17 231:19

236:4 245:20 251:15

255:12 278:10 282:8

283:21 287:21 288:20

294:16,22 295:1,11

298:10,12,16 299:2

300:8,12 306:15

376:4,21 377:4 378:4

378:21 379:22 380:20

381:15,15 383:21

384:3,7,10,19 385:11

385:12,15 412:15

418:19 419:4,11,12

423:6,11,21 424:8

426:3,9 427:9 428:21

433:5 440:11,14

472:9 474:1,5 478:20

499:3 500:15 522:13

524:17 532:21

backbone 280:7

backed 190:21

background 23:6 246:2

502:3

backgrounds 232:2

backup 431:3

backwards 429:4

bacteria 37:7 174:11

207:2 249:16 275:6

401:15,17 431:19

433:1 438:10 447:15

448:21,22 449:4

452:12 499:12 515:21

516:14 532:18

bad 114:12 306:21

425:11 493:18

Badger 2:10 142:10

146:18,20 147:1,2

149:18

bags 537:17

Baird 1:13 28:13 29:3,7

29:9,14 31:4 76:6,9

76:13 86:6,18,22 87:4

87:8,11 215:20

217:14 309:5,8

325:22 326:20 327:17

328:17 333:3 334:8

334:19 339:22 343:22

346:7 349:11 350:14

353:11 356:21 360:11

365:20 367:6 368:8

370:13 373:11 386:4

397:10 398:15 414:19
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

547

416:16 418:6 424:22

425:19 426:14 470:13

524:20 526:1,6,10

531:17 536:9 538:14

541:13

bait 95:17 342:1

bake 181:8

baked 36:17 102:5

bakery 162:8 181:8

balance 10:12 16:15

54:22 100:1 136:12

140:14 276:4

balanced 117:21

balances 116:5 118:17

balancing 306:22

309:22 310:4

ball 437:5

Ballrooms 1:8

ban 491:19

BANDERA 2:10

banks 466:15

bar 105:4

barefoot 471:7

barking 319:2

barriers 178:20 328:10

335:12

Bart 312:19

Barton 2:11 133:10

138:11,13,14 141:10

141:18 142:5

base 12:22 122:21

278:4 330:21 482:7

based 9:4 10:15 11:8

15:15 16:9 50:18 52:9

52:12,15 54:1 75:10

79:1 94:16 104:3

105:6 117:18 118:4,6

128:9 131:6 134:3

137:18 170:12 184:11

198:4 205:17 210:19

221:9 256:4,21

258:15 262:20 271:4

278:2,5,13,16 279:6,9

279:10,14,21 280:1

280:10,10,11,12,16

280:17 283:3 305:1

343:10 366:5 382:7

383:2 410:12 411:4

428:15 429:5,21

435:7,12 445:1,13

486:5,12,22

basement 499:21

BASF 3:3 273:7

basic 16:21 151:12,14

187:5 284:22 383:12

basically 46:10 80:3

84:3 91:20 127:7

171:15 185:18 253:10

358:15 395:15 429:11

434:5 435:4 436:1,12

469:17 500:7 528:17

529:17

basics 183:10

basil 74:12,12,14,14

173:4 174:9 192:4

basis 33:5 63:8 215:11

276:8 296:2 305:1

431:8 433:22 441:12

457:1 512:3 534:6

538:5 540:14

Bat 466:21

bathe 498:16

bathed 450:4 499:2

bay 10:19 258:10

260:22 261:20 262:22

beans 125:3

bear 316:18

bears 129:5,6

beat 216:17

beautiful 477:5

beauty 304:9 308:11

505:1

bed 200:13

beds 201:18 202:17

478:16

bee 155:1

beekeeper 36:8

beer 240:19 244:3,9,11

247:16 248:3 309:1

bees 155:2,3 224:21

beet 179:20

beetles 310:7

began 156:11

beginning 17:14 31:8

35:10 203:4 437:8

456:18 473:21 488:8

behalf 50:2 147:3 150:4

189:13 193:5 221:15

272:13 315:19 442:4

behavior 394:21

behaviors 514:18

belated 316:5

belief 127:16,17,18

234:13 382:9 462:1

beliefs 127:14

believe 20:15 30:9 52:6

57:18 72:5 73:6 79:1

79:1 83:1,7 84:1

112:19 116:3,4 118:9

130:18 137:2,4 191:4

197:13,17 207:15

225:18 227:14 229:17

241:5 255:16 256:5

256:22 259:17 312:14

352:12 354:18 369:12

387:1 410:4,9 462:8

493:15 500:18 501:22

502:6,8,9,16,18

503:20 529:15 537:10

believed 72:2 259:19

believes 83:14 119:3

140:17 192:9

believing 96:8

Bellevue 240:11

Bellingham 212:9

218:15

belong 145:5

belonging 145:4

belongs 39:15

beneath 15:20 537:15

beneficial 311:22

447:17 465:11 514:11

benefit 110:9 145:10

147:19 181:11 205:12

249:13 511:8

benefits 118:5 197:17

249:1 456:17 457:21

468:22 478:4 482:22

490:20

Bensonoff 2:11 5:5 8:2

8:4 11:20 12:6 13:11

13:18 15:6 16:9

bentonite 126:14

Berkeley 173:1 174:4

311:6

Bermuda 331:16

berries 283:5 285:5

best 27:11 35:9 90:17

102:12 107:2 113:19

114:22 118:8 131:13

131:18 140:10 146:12

169:5 178:7 200:17

202:5 234:12 256:5

259:7 285:8,13 293:2

304:4,7,7 308:4

463:16 502:17

better 14:14 25:7 46:2

48:8 70:2 81:22

112:15 129:6 139:15

139:17 145:7 164:9

164:11 169:19 170:10

202:20 239:14,15

247:18 284:7 289:10

457:12 469:16 470:4

471:5 500:10 502:20

509:6 510:10

beverages 168:19

181:14,17,18

beyond 2:16 3:11 38:2

40:8 53:17 105:14

108:20 151:10 154:8

207:7 252:16 269:8

284:22 352:1 378:17

412:13

BHA 45:9,9

BHT 45:9,9

bias 497:15

bible 37:17

bicarbonate 102:4

Biernbaum 2:12 5:5

18:7,10,11 21:18 24:9

26:1 28:20 29:5,8,10

30:7 31:18 33:16 34:2

34:7,14

bifurcated 25:15

443:17

bifurcation 71:20

big 15:19 22:3,4 45:2

95:12 228:1 243:3

388:16 414:4 424:13

439:9 460:5,21

491:12

bigger 437:11

biggest 114:5 131:22

186:7 212:15 215:17

253:1 311:12 320:4

511:10

bill 219:16,22 253:17

316:2,5 319:8

billion 41:9 284:17

505:21

bin 330:21

binding 194:18

binds 194:6

bins 330:16

bio 278:4,13,16 279:6,8

279:10,14,21 280:10

280:11,15,17

bio-diversity 238:13

239:12

biobased 4:10 104:22

105:1,7 335:8,14

336:18 337:5 338:10

339:8

biochemistry 481:22

biodegradability 105:7

273:10 336:21

biodegradable 4:10

104:21 105:1 273:8

273:13,18 274:5,18

275:4,13 276:2

277:21 279:20 335:8

335:13 338:18 339:8

biodegrade 273:13

274:7

biodegraded 277:18

biodegrading 275:15

336:10

biodiversity 51:3 59:4

90:12,21 103:13

140:15 145:8 453:3

454:4 467:16 499:16
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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506:2 515:10

biofilm 251:14,14 277:8

biogas 401:20

biological 10:7 22:15

118:11 190:15 192:22

206:19 438:5 440:5

466:8 467:12 468:8

biological/ecological

445:20

biologically 206:22

458:22

biologists 105:20

biology 22:20 104:3

190:5,10,19 191:5

231:15,15 431:18

432:5 447:12 516:13

516:16

biomass 135:10,22

136:7 273:18 274:10

274:21 438:8

bioponics 428:20

431:17

biotechs 38:10

bird 56:14 229:16

birdhouses 466:21

birds 226:11 227:1

230:3 304:12,21

310:20 449:7 516:3

bit 13:3 14:22 16:19

21:6 25:22 44:12

77:11 128:4 242:10

244:1,7 245:6 253:12

262:7 269:7 279:4,11

289:21 300:8 381:13

388:11 392:21 393:4

399:7 403:3 424:9

428:9 476:19 477:1

bite 500:15

bits 120:13

black 169:14 210:22

212:10 289:8 304:1

304:16 305:3,8,21

306:2 308:10 310:21

311:16 514:21

blackberries 288:13

blame 31:2

blaming 292:8

blatant 214:2

blend 169:21 375:11

blended 184:1 362:7

blight 271:20

block-processed 195:2

blockchain 219:2

blowing 216:5

blows 215:8

blueberries 50:3 291:1

board's 40:15 525:6

boardrooms 39:2

boards 488:8

boat 248:6 378:5

Bob 243:14 244:19,20

Bobbe 2:13 204:19

210:6,8,8 213:13

214:18 216:2 217:17

219:20 220:10,16,21

body 148:14 184:13

226:20 411:17

bogus 516:10

Bogusz 2:13 121:13

126:5,8,8 129:10

boiler 401:13

bold 15:19

Bondera 149:20 153:20

154:3,6,6 157:7,20

158:8,11,13,15,18,20

booklet 254:16

border 498:22

borders 51:8

boric 4:10 155:8 340:17

340:22 341:6,12

342:12 343:7,8

Borlaug 499:22,22

born 37:11 232:22

boron 4:13 354:5,14

356:14 358:18

botanicals 102:11

bother 308:12

bothers 425:20

bottom 183:22 331:15

bought 69:10 216:13

474:18

bowel 160:4

box 169:12 491:11,12

boxed 172:3

boxes 270:20

Bradman 1:14 13:6,13

14:21 25:12 46:5

71:18 72:11 73:5,9

91:5,15 119:20 120:3

124:17 125:6,9

203:22 208:22 209:4

234:17,21 238:10,17

239:9,16,19 252:11

276:6,21 277:5,10,13

278:1,6 287:17

325:14 326:12 327:9

335:3 338:14 340:6

344:6 346:13 349:16

350:20 351:17 353:2

353:17 357:5 360:3

366:20 367:22 370:5

373:3 378:13 384:12

385:18 397:16 398:21

416:22 418:12 426:20

506:10 521:18,22

522:3,6,9 532:1

536:15 538:21 541:5

brand 54:11 100:4

189:18 314:18 362:3

brassicas 30:16

Bravo 60:5

Brazil 189:2 307:9

breadth 507:4

break 24:4 129:17,18

129:19 282:6 373:20

374:1 399:4,10

418:19 419:5 438:13

438:18,20

breakdown 438:16

460:13

breaking 281:19

breaks 76:20 253:10

254:8

bred 110:6

breed 307:22

breeders 110:11 111:1

breeding 36:10 110:9

151:5

breeds 150:20 151:11

bridge 83:11

brief 8:19 77:4 105:18

133:2 137:3 250:4

487:14

briefly 111:8 124:16

133:1 136:17 137:6

162:22 217:13 257:15

265:18 278:7,8 279:7

279:15 286:11 303:20

449:19

bright 286:2

Brines 2:2 154:20

299:17 300:20 301:2

320:22 321:4 328:6

335:10 340:19 344:13

347:2 351:8 354:7

358:1 360:17 365:6

365:10 368:18 370:22

374:6 395:18,20

399:19

bring 47:20 54:15 63:10

83:1,9 102:15 152:21

216:13,14 294:22

295:1 313:20 454:20

477:15 490:9 520:9

521:20 526:19

bringing 7:20 39:22

89:9 306:7 308:20

429:5 478:20

BRIONES 1:14 306:6

325:12 327:2,21

335:1 340:4 344:4

346:11 349:15 350:18

353:15 357:3 360:1

366:18 367:20 370:3

373:15 386:8 395:3

397:7,14 398:19

416:20 418:10 426:18

513:5 531:21 536:13

538:19 541:3

Brix 180:20

broad 345:11 362:1

381:6

broader 399:9

broiler 303:14

broilers 303:12 305:9

312:1

broken 78:3 460:21

brokers 255:18 262:5

brought 203:14 260:4

302:22 381:4,15

388:13,14,17 422:3

444:2 472:10 520:7

brown 352:3 439:22

buds 375:14 382:13

buffer 169:10

buffering 164:6 169:1,6

169:8

buffers 172:14

bugs 449:3

Buie 1:12 247:5,11

296:7,11 297:4,8

299:15,17 325:18

326:16 327:13 334:9

334:15 339:18 343:18

346:3 349:20 351:2

353:21 357:9 360:7

367:2 368:4 370:9

373:7 375:6 381:18

382:2 385:22 390:11

390:15 397:6 398:11

416:12 418:2 427:2

492:19 494:8 532:5

536:19 539:3 541:9

build 24:11 36:12 95:5

127:9 138:17 516:3

building 103:21 148:14

328:13 445:22 458:5

477:7 478:6,6 490:21

515:22 516:8 527:16

buildings 35:15 330:8

332:18

built 232:13

bulk 98:9 277:14

bullet 432:3

bunch 218:13

bundled 362:19,22

363:1

burden 108:12

burdens 108:19

bureau 38:10

buried 503:11

burning 441:17
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

549

burns 252:9

bushel 212:13

bushels 211:19

busiest 98:20

business 6:8 7:5 42:10

45:20 95:12 210:1

218:17 280:15 340:12

354:22 385:8 426:4

517:1

businesses 116:14,18

341:15 371:8

busy 48:16 226:10

259:5 295:12 297:12

297:17

butchered 18:8

butt 500:15

button 304:20 468:2

buy 69:20 70:8 71:16

74:12,13,15 114:9

256:20 444:8,10,11

474:16,19

buyer 132:4,7 216:18

buyers 132:15 214:8,14

216:12 220:1 267:4,6

buying 69:8,16 75:20

491:9

buzzer 319:4

by-products 177:20,21

179:5

byproduct 304:9

307:20

C

C 1:8 4:15 275:7 357:16

360:15 361:1,8

364:10,16 367:12,14

Cabell 471:16

CACS 141:20 196:15

265:18 419:2 542:3

CACS's 57:13

cadiron 222:22

CADs 252:4

CAFO-type 509:12

CAFOs 420:6

caking 306:21

Cal 286:21

calcium 4:8 159:20

160:1 170:3 187:16

194:5,6,18 270:10

271:14 321:1 322:2

324:11,13 325:8

calculate 434:21

calculated 433:22

441:12 538:5 540:14

California 2:9 76:18

78:9,10 80:14 173:2,5

283:4 285:4 302:16

303:22 310:14,17

363:12 446:14 508:18

call 44:15 60:11,14

108:7 135:8 144:13

224:19 230:6 234:19

300:18 382:20 408:8

409:1 442:4 449:20

490:1 495:2 518:7

529:6,10 530:5

called 42:7 151:1

185:14 190:11 227:19

230:10 405:21 428:11

429:14,15 484:1

498:22 529:12 533:11

calling 84:5 200:11

354:21 358:19 430:7

529:16

callouts 447:1

calls 302:6 379:5

381:12 459:18

Cameron 2:18 99:7

102:19,22 107:16

campaign 94:7 150:2

campus 311:5

Campylobacter 411:6

Canada 114:11 137:19

137:21 305:9 311:22

Candy 2:13 126:9

capabilities 127:13

capability 143:11

capable 275:15 469:9

capacity 164:6 169:6

capital 286:13,16

capitalism 505:12

capitalistic 493:5

capitalize 148:4

caps 103:18 104:2

150:22

capture 66:13

capturing 478:19

carbon 62:18,22 63:9,9

63:10,11 102:9

126:15 173:13 274:1

275:1,2,8,10,10,12

280:7,10 485:12

488:22 489:4,5 496:7

496:13 497:1,6,7,15

497:17 501:9 508:21

carbon-based 453:13

carbonate 102:6

carbonates 4:13 357:19

358:8 359:8

carbons 375:8

care 9:9 235:18 297:1,3

315:4 407:13 478:8

career 19:2 283:18

286:4

careers 284:9

carefully 14:5 137:1

189:21 482:4

cargo 213:15

caring 226:10

Carolina 293:1 391:3

495:5

carried 503:17

carrots 144:8

carve-outs 317:10

319:19

carved-out 488:3

Cascadian 243:11

case 273:17 314:7

385:15 389:2 408:14

425:18 484:21 528:3

casein 194:6

cases 143:11 170:2

269:8 287:4 290:10

290:15,18 391:6

446:19,21 471:21

483:2

cash 12:5 292:17

cashing 95:3

catalyst 222:18

catastrophe 215:18

categorically 143:10

categories 283:7

category 109:20 168:12

404:9

cats 248:9

caught 516:21

cause 278:22 322:19,19

caustic 322:17

caution 104:1 134:4

cautionary 502:19

cautious 62:21

CCOF 2:15 3:4 67:16

68:10 69:3,10 70:15

79:12,16,16,17,17,19

81:4,8 82:4 83:14

92:16 245:19 318:3

481:9 489:11,19

492:13 516:22

CCOF's 79:15 316:12

515:8

celebrate 506:2

celebrated 60:5

celebrates 513:7

celebrating 225:13

cell 7:16 123:7

cells 498:19,22 499:2,3

Cenergy 400:4

center 2:18 38:8 63:1

102:22 250:18 507:11

centered 213:7

centers 58:12,13

centimeter 276:16

277:6

centimeters 277:1,2

central 273:10 331:16

cents 8:20

century 94:8

CEOs 314:21

certain 81:19 90:9

106:18 107:8 126:22

159:13 164:7 168:8

178:4

certainly 9:6,15 85:4

233:17 288:11 301:12

332:12 389:14 407:21

411:5,10 479:17

480:16 484:14 495:9

505:18,22 519:2

523:21

certainty 14:6

certificate 303:9,15

certificates 219:6

certification 3:7 4:2

41:13 55:12 72:16,21

79:22 80:5 81:20

82:15,18 83:2 89:14

103:17 113:17 117:6

117:9,19 119:7 122:4

130:10 138:19 146:7

196:11 197:2,4

200:11 201:8,12,15

207:13,17 208:11

220:1 225:13 233:6

240:10 255:19 312:22

313:2,4 430:21

432:17 433:10 456:13

462:12 470:22 479:11

482:13 483:5 488:16

529:4 531:1 533:3

536:2

certifications 12:21

certified 3:12 8:9 12:8

14:3 19:12 50:2,6

67:18 68:15 71:8

94:12 97:10 100:5,7

101:7 116:18 117:8

120:14 128:21 130:13

132:7,14,17 140:21

155:11 156:5,6,8

165:5,8 178:7,8 186:8

208:3,15,17 212:12

212:14 220:4 245:20

246:20 248:15,22

268:6 290:11 292:17

292:20 341:19 432:5

433:15 441:10 450:11

455:11 460:14,20,22

461:8,11,15 462:9,13

475:18 490:4 493:7

493:11 509:20 520:16

537:20 540:12

certifier 79:13,16
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

550

125:20 144:3 255:22

318:14 341:18 420:19

480:6,18

certifiers 2:14 12:20

13:8,21 14:4,16 29:20

30:8,19 41:21 72:12

80:10 93:18 112:14

119:9 130:21 131:12

131:18 134:9 146:11

156:11 216:22 217:11

219:10 245:7,12

266:13 312:16 313:12

331:6 335:22 341:15

345:12 348:5 354:21

371:8,12 383:16

420:18 424:3 480:15

507:12,13

certifiers' 220:7 265:14

certifies 138:19

certifiying 217:2

certify 87:17 142:15

156:12 192:17 247:12

313:13 331:2 480:17

certifying 41:21,22

245:12 318:17

cetera 255:19 404:3

421:15 482:10 489:1

537:17

CFR 366:7

CFS 103:6 105:18

chain 4:6 42:5 75:8

119:9 120:14 126:17

127:19 196:17,20

222:16,19,21 267:18

267:20 424:20 448:18

494:3

chains 119:2

chair 1:11,12 18:13

57:4 99:18 243:8,9

320:17 327:3 335:4

340:8 344:9 346:17

349:21 351:4 357:12

360:12 367:8 368:11

370:17 373:16 379:5

386:10 397:17 399:1

417:3 418:16 427:3

532:7 536:22 539:7

541:14

chaired 53:18 99:17

Chairman 1:10 67:15

99:11 302:18

challenge 14:16 55:9

108:11 134:4 208:10

229:14

challenges 108:15

151:12 230:2 285:6

285:13 446:11 490:21

challenging 13:7 20:8

65:3,11 67:1 81:6

84:19 140:8

Chamerlain 243:11

chamomile 251:3

chance 82:16 241:13

424:7 463:17 476:16

change 9:14 25:10

63:11,15 72:6 100:12

119:16 120:16 130:20

142:21 143:7 175:3

178:13 198:1,9,19,21

215:15 233:15 255:5

255:6,17 268:16

284:12,12 317:5

337:17 342:4 355:12

376:22 377:5 379:9

379:16 395:22 422:9

459:2 485:5 486:6

497:21 511:3,10,18

528:19

changed 91:22 131:1

355:18 358:22 473:8

496:1

changes 143:1 175:3

284:9 304:6 396:6

424:5 449:21 453:9

453:18 503:14,21

changing 304:5 337:8

341:22 498:14

chaos 230:9

chapter 78:4,12,13

chapters 78:4,8

character 6:15

characteristics 42:15

195:19

characterize 174:19

characterizing 98:4

charge 94:9

charged 26:3

chart 439:4,5

charter 40:15

cheaper 387:17

cheese 159:15,15

163:11,13,14,15,18

164:5 166:20,20

167:1 168:16,17,18

170:4,10 171:8 172:4

172:5,7 193:19 194:1

194:11,16,22 195:2,8

195:18

cheese-type 163:10

cheeses 194:22 195:15

chemical 46:4 206:20

chemically 22:17

375:14

chemicals 45:6 73:21

235:17 246:21 280:16

491:18

chemist 312:20

cherries 269:22 270:19

271:2

cherry 270:16

chewing 393:1

chicken 13:2 246:2

chickens 151:1 307:12

chicory 263:18

children 69:15 507:7

Chile 76:21

Chilean 124:3 242:15

242:20

chiming 495:14

China 188:21 189:3

Chino 3:14 302:15

chips 20:22 21:1

chlorides 354:11 358:5

chlorine 4:8,9 102:12

227:17 251:16 270:7

270:11 271:4 272:18

321:1,2,5,14,15,20

322:2,12 323:19

324:12,13 326:7

chocolate 102:7

choice 46:5,6,9 74:13

169:5 170:9 502:10

512:12,15 513:2

519:4

choices 294:4

choose 85:2,7 110:21

114:20 132:9

choosing 128:20

chose 203:9

chosen 117:13 376:17

480:17

Chris 225:7 229:6

Christie 2:10 142:10

146:18,19 147:2

149:17

Christopher 3:9 221:1

225:3,4

cides 173:10

cigarettes 246:22

circle 427:22

circumstances 115:16

292:8 484:20

cisgenesis 123:3,8

256:6

citations 109:18

cited 266:8

citing 150:17

citizen 474:3

citrate 163:17,20 164:9

164:12,12,16,20

169:11,15,19,21

170:2,3,5

citrates 170:12 194:15

195:1,16

citric 170:12 330:16

333:20,21

citrus 102:2 177:21

179:1,20

city 9:14 498:2,3

civilian 408:7 412:3

claim 161:9 198:11

403:22

claims 148:19 363:14

363:17 405:1 489:4

clamshells 469:21

clarification 6:10 62:8

62:13 120:19 144:4

268:20 302:1 392:2

445:5 447:22

clarified 85:3 198:9

261:5 315:1 445:11

clarify 12:7 79:11,17

102:1 111:18 124:8

134:1 273:9 420:6

453:19 488:9

clarifying 42:2 109:2

113:11 149:9 268:4

455:17

clarity 83:1 123:6

137:10 421:10 422:5

496:6

Clark 244:21

class 28:14 32:2 57:11

classic 88:7,9 90:5

92:13,21 93:6

classification 197:21

198:2 221:11 256:14

396:16 402:14,15

415:22

classified 210:11 256:7

375:2

classify 256:13 396:17

396:19 416:1

clay 290:22

clean 205:17 209:20

228:3 330:20

cleaners 147:10

cleanest 202:4

cleaning 321:14,17

323:3,4

cleansers 42:16 160:5

323:12

clear 6:19 12:10 15:21

52:22 57:20 58:3 66:9

66:10 68:2 81:8 85:5

85:6 92:8 101:22

103:14 109:17 117:6

117:12 118:1 125:17

133:7 136:1 137:12

140:20 156:9 157:1

216:3 221:10 238:3

289:18,20 301:18
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

551

302:4 361:10 362:13

380:14 404:5 430:1

463:5 483:12 515:3

527:4 531:9

cleared 252:3

clearing 199:11

clearly 17:19 20:2 33:9

99:1 140:16 232:19

314:11 484:16 507:17

515:4,5

clicked 313:17

clicker 441:21

climate 63:11,15

284:19 485:5 486:5

497:21 511:3,10,18

climate-friendly 495:20

clippings 287:19

close 53:8 122:11

132:21 294:9 318:11

330:17 340:14 512:17

closed 19:13 314:8,12

closely 70:19 113:16

127:21 134:8 151:18

218:21 441:1

closer 59:21 187:9

275:20

closest 463:17

closing 31:16 315:15

cloth 289:8

clue 212:5 218:5 503:19

co- 118:22

CO2 273:18 274:9,16

274:19 478:19 497:11

coal 352:3

coalition 2:10,14,15,16

3:16 19:16 34:3 95:8

116:13 121:18 138:16

147:3 189:14 200:6

coast 78:22 80:15

coastal 135:22

coastline 135:14

coatings 345:1

coattails 458:1

cobalt 4:14 357:21

358:10 359:13

Coca-Cola 230:22

Cochiti 513:15

coco 236:18,18

coconut 60:13 61:6

66:2 437:16

code 70:4

coevolution 496:2

498:17

Coexistence 444:13

coffee 155:10

cognizant 472:19

coherent 38:1

coir 60:13 61:6 66:2

236:18 437:16 439:17

440:21

Colehour 2:10 149:20

153:20 154:2,6

156:21

Coleman 9:2

coli 250:15 271:18

413:1 470:1

colleague 109:21

180:12

colleagues 140:6

collected 190:12

461:13

collecting 217:1

collection 303:6,8

402:1

collective 459:22

513:19

collectively 254:7

colonized 274:6 275:4

color 361:18

combination 23:16

107:5,14 164:13

171:5,8 194:13 195:4

combine 164:16

combined 461:17

combines 218:18

come 7:20 38:22 59:15

63:1 68:8 69:1 70:22

73:15 74:19 80:16

85:15 133:4 155:18

190:22 212:11 226:5

232:13 235:1,2

241:10 242:11 244:10

246:1 247:2 256:3

259:13 261:13 266:14

286:21 295:9 298:16

311:14 323:9 324:2

362:17 363:10 365:21

384:19 396:16 408:12

408:15 419:11 420:5

424:13 467:6 473:9

474:18 486:2 489:13

493:17 494:15 495:12

500:12,15 501:17

503:2 509:12 512:6

514:14 516:3 530:17

530:19

comes 37:13 39:1 74:2

127:18 139:20 171:7

188:17 235:2,4 257:9

311:7 324:5 334:8

397:22 407:14 508:18

531:3 532:22

comfortable 234:18

288:5 389:12 510:22

519:1

coming 34:19 56:5

76:21 98:1 136:18

188:20,21 212:4,9

218:3,4 226:4 247:8

283:22 286:4 319:11

412:15 446:13 492:2

498:10 516:2

command 494:3

commend 52:18

comment 4:1,21 5:8,10

5:13,15 6:4 7:1 16:2

18:2 25:17 48:13

91:11 109:21 119:20

133:14 137:17 138:22

143:2 146:6 153:1

166:9 175:22 193:11

196:7 221:14,16

223:5 225:19 229:7

241:8 242:19 252:16

257:8,17 258:14

260:4,7 273:1 279:13

280:14 292:5 294:18

295:7 315:15 336:17

341:12 342:6 345:13

347:21 348:8 355:6

363:22 364:20 377:14

377:16 379:18 381:4

384:4 388:14 403:19

410:10 413:6 424:7

446:11 448:4 454:10

455:16,18,19 504:17

511:2 524:19 525:4

525:12

commented 51:22

134:6 257:18 258:2

258:12,13 421:10

458:7

commenter 6:11,16

355:3 481:4

commenters 5:21 6:13

7:3 77:7 163:22 258:1

268:19 282:1 323:1

354:19 371:6 412:11

422:11 457:14 458:7

458:18

commenting 166:2

180:12

commercial 100:15

177:15,18 186:4

205:2,16 206:4 208:5

271:12 292:17

commercial-sized

310:18

commercially 177:11

262:11

Commission 243:8

commitment 153:10

226:1 284:6 481:1

commitments 303:1

committed 108:6,21

150:8 479:18

committee 25:14 26:9

27:7 28:8 34:15,21

36:6 38:8 53:19 99:18

315:20 342:19,21

369:7 375:20 378:14

378:21 428:22 429:13

430:6 431:13 522:13

committees 429:12

commodities 39:9

commodity 145:4 243:7

common 201:7 220:2

222:8,14 263:13

285:6 435:5 437:15

518:20

commonality 519:8

commonly 162:8

163:11 195:1 355:2

404:13

commons 39:9

communicate 110:22

communication 48:20

49:7 64:18 132:11

300:21 471:15

communications

264:22 380:15

communities 506:15

514:14,20

community 9:2 16:3

36:3,11 39:16 51:10

55:15 56:2 57:10

59:19 64:21 73:1

104:4 110:17 113:17

121:21 130:11 145:5

253:2 316:10 380:15

442:9,10,10 443:1,3,4

443:19 444:18 446:3

447:4 454:7 456:5,8

463:10 475:14 489:18

490:3 498:20,21

504:19,22 505:7

506:1,5 507:1,5,9

509:2 513:9,13,17

514:9,9,13,19 515:9

515:11,12 523:7

528:12

companies 100:20

108:14 177:9 193:10

195:7 259:3 283:3,9

409:5

company 2:13 101:16

126:9 167:20 168:1

183:2 208:19 220:2

286:17,20 287:1,13

308:7 320:5 336:16

467:5

comparable 82:17
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

552

314:9

compare 64:1 86:10

249:8 437:22 468:18

compared 161:2 169:10

205:13 306:3 434:3

439:17 457:6 499:14

compares 135:20

comparing 499:12

comparison 489:4

comparisons 63:21

compassion 68:22

compatibility 404:8

406:4 488:15

compatible 375:21

407:1 454:6

compete 77:1

competing 76:17,20

competition 76:14 79:5

185:2 493:5

competitive 493:4

competitiveness

110:15

compiles 156:3

complain 467:7

complaint 201:7

complement 143:5

408:12 411:14

Complementary 250:18

complete 37:1 134:9

141:8 212:16 276:4

278:18 318:19 336:6

387:6 502:10 537:13

completed 6:11 40:20

190:12 322:5 328:16

335:18 341:4 344:18

347:16 351:14 354:16

361:2 374:21 400:12

422:16

completely 65:14 82:5

114:8 206:15 264:21

305:1 313:3 314:3

455:1 480:3

complex 22:17 108:22

116:4 140:17 500:19

501:6 502:1,2 503:18

complexities 117:8

complexity 116:5

compliance 4:2 117:22

271:9 421:18 454:18

487:22

compliant 30:4 51:14

199:13 448:7 454:8

480:11

compliment 113:15

complimentary 483:11

comply 81:21 103:10

103:16 117:12 130:16

197:8,11 226:19

301:11 451:14 479:15

components 130:22

175:10 328:19

composed 239:3

487:16

composition 101:8

compost 11:19 13:2

20:21 21:10,12,16,20

23:8,10 29:2 88:22

173:12 174:1,2 175:4

288:20 289:14 317:22

371:15,21 402:6,9

406:13 413:3 440:18

447:6 466:7 487:17

compost-based 447:16

compostable 452:7

487:16

composted 287:20

405:11 447:16

composting 22:22

174:20 238:19 404:21

405:5,16,19,22

409:21 411:21

composts 23:12 409:12

452:7

compounds 394:19

comprehensive 43:13

147:9 161:22 207:18

266:16 323:12 347:15

comprised 328:18

comprises 439:9

compromise 11:12

13:16 14:11,12 15:1

34:20 51:21 53:9

62:10,12 68:9 69:1,2

81:17 93:16 117:21

120:5 121:1 128:15

141:2,3,9,14 201:17

204:2 442:12 459:6

463:9,16 481:14

482:5 487:3 489:20

490:1 492:10 493:17

494:16 507:2,3,14,19

510:2,3 512:13 517:3

517:4 519:2,18 520:4

520:9,11 521:7 523:1

523:10,12 524:10

526:16 538:17

compromised 35:3

123:11 161:13

compromises 524:3

computers 7:17

concentrate 258:10

262:2

concentration 30:15,16

165:16,21 172:11

497:8

concept 73:13 77:8

142:20 448:3

concern 90:2 100:11

114:5 115:7 116:1

134:20 186:8 308:20

311:13 322:18 348:3

364:22 404:4,11

407:14 410:22 411:16

420:7,8 462:15,19,20

462:21

concerned 134:14

152:17 215:12 234:7

266:6 329:2,22 425:6

462:11 474:3

concerning 338:22

422:12 471:16

concerns 104:15 115:2

143:18 152:13 205:15

223:22 224:9 337:13

351:22 376:11 379:17

380:18 382:17,21

408:17 409:15 411:3

446:20 454:6 488:21

495:12

concession 141:12

concluded 266:14

361:17 389:13

conclusion 27:16

161:19 162:16 486:21

conclusive 412:16

concrete 475:11,22

515:22 516:7

condescending 499:11

condition 24:16 25:9

conditions 10:17 24:20

25:9 105:9 110:7

130:17 151:8,19

178:5 180:19 181:4

186:13 222:17 405:20

407:22

conduct 7:4 426:4

conducted 122:19

134:13

conducting 112:14

conducts 340:12

conduit 116:17

confectionary 126:10

181:9

conference 28:17

212:18 464:11

confidence 229:1

379:15

confident 261:13

310:16

confidential 45:20

261:11

confined 345:5 409:10

confirm 416:9

conflict 80:5 110:8

conflicted 329:20

conflicting 515:2

conform 58:15

confused 65:14 395:4

533:16

confusing 91:7

confusion 148:16

149:13 157:6 236:2,5

237:20 289:21 512:11

congruent 127:10

conjunction 63:2

connect 10:9

connected 37:3 440:16

connection 464:6,9

connections 513:7

connects 513:16

consciousness 71:12

consensus 25:19 50:8

50:11 51:18 52:7

59:15,22 60:5 62:9,11

204:8 369:5 493:19

519:21 528:14

consequences 501:1

conservation 90:12

406:8 445:16 466:14

468:12

conservative 135:21

conservatively 135:9

135:12

conserve 140:14 453:2

467:16

consider 8:15 33:14

57:21 64:12 71:14

82:21 83:6 118:15

122:8 152:5 155:4,7

266:2 313:12 342:3

345:14 489:12

consideration 142:6

147:9 257:6 270:13

280:22 425:8 428:22

446:6

considered 158:11

160:10 166:12 199:12

221:22 322:13 388:10

430:13 447:19 450:6

450:7 487:18 489:20

522:16

considering 90:7

105:13 122:1 144:22

154:21 267:14

considers 472:3

consistency 83:1

164:18

consistent 24:17 40:22

41:13 50:16 69:18

113:22 124:1 144:1

424:3 473:7,15,19

480:9
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

553

consistently 52:12 53:1

103:21 266:13 268:2

513:22

consisting 448:16

constant 440:5

constantly 284:5

440:12 493:14

constitute 198:13

Constitution 232:7,14

316:1,4

constraints/resources

432:2

construction 471:20

consult 105:20

consultant 39:17 49:22

Consulting 2:21 50:1

consume 163:13

consumed 163:11

consumer 16:3 64:21

65:6,11 69:4,6,9 70:7

70:7,10 71:10,11,14

75:22 83:10 95:4,22

160:22 163:4 168:20

195:20 215:13 219:17

229:1 378:2 481:17

486:10 487:1 491:11

491:14 493:8 505:15

513:2 519:3

consumers 3:2 10:3

15:21 16:11,15,20

17:16 41:15 64:18

65:4 73:22 93:14 94:3

95:16 96:3,7 102:15

148:17 160:12 161:14

163:12 164:18,22

180:5,5 215:12 234:6

235:10 238:3,5 271:9

314:19 444:3,7 446:4

458:19 483:3 486:13

491:4,16 505:5,6,14

510:16 512:3,4,6,14

consuming 147:6 160:8

160:13

consumption 161:19

170:16 508:14

contact 220:20 223:14

321:16 341:1 343:9

389:8

contacted 297:1

contacting 376:12

537:15

contacts 212:3

contain 161:3 194:13

197:7 278:4 362:8,21

484:2

contained 22:18 45:12

452:17 472:13 482:17

container-based

451:19 461:16

container-growing

313:9

containerized 65:1

containers 4:19 20:8,13

50:3 61:13,22 62:9,11

62:18 65:12 66:4 70:9

84:16,16,18 88:15

89:2 90:18 117:3

118:5 121:11 190:20

191:1,18 197:6

201:15 211:18 272:2

285:15 287:21 288:10

315:20 317:2,12

318:7 319:12 320:2,7

428:13 430:16 431:2

437:12 441:2 445:7

450:11,20,21 451:7

451:14 452:18 453:6

453:16 459:8 462:6

483:19,19 490:11

492:3,12 523:10

527:12

containing 103:21

177:16 362:4 375:8

contains 431:17

contaminate 308:17

414:3,22

contaminated 42:20

108:17 420:8 425:13

425:14

contamination 38:19

108:15 119:1 207:10

224:15 266:8,10,12

272:5 290:12 311:14

422:13 425:7,10

contemporary 10:2

content 21:22 22:4

150:1 156:5,16 181:2

278:4 304:7 402:17

452:5 484:4

contentious 128:5

429:11 433:12

CONTENTS 4:1

context 54:13,17

131:20 144:21 151:16

279:18 483:20

continuance 114:6

continuation 221:11

228:6

continue 17:18,20

23:13 37:8 52:20 76:9

93:1 106:1 121:5

123:12 131:5 134:14

209:9,18 266:2 336:3

337:4,19 376:14

379:12 385:16 453:22

526:18 532:10 534:17

continued 52:15 117:4

119:16 167:21 227:16

270:7 272:14,18

331:4,5 484:21 493:6

525:20

continues 41:17 141:20

153:15

continuing 150:12

335:11 344:14 354:8

542:3

continuous 43:7 103:4

131:20 255:8 458:5

479:7

continuously 55:15

277:20 279:22 479:21

continuum 16:8 444:7

524:8

contract 132:3,6

contradictory 317:7

contribute 170:12

239:12

contributed 65:9 442:5

contributes 43:1 63:15

161:10

contributing 96:11,12

509:2

contributions 9:7

control 115:16 122:19

136:5 155:1,11 221:5

223:7 250:6 269:9

271:19 296:9 304:14

332:17 333:12,13

340:22 341:1,16

342:8 343:8,9 344:15

345:4 347:4 348:1,10

374:18 375:12 452:22

controlled 10:18

110:20 178:3 210:13

457:5 508:1

controlling 194:9

341:10

controls 452:10

controversial 71:6 98:9

387:2 456:4 459:21

convenient 387:17

conventional 19:3

23:21 63:5 64:2 66:16

69:21 74:14 75:10

82:2 92:7 93:2 114:15

118:2 144:12,16

151:11 180:11 182:17

187:2 199:16 213:17

270:1 283:5 290:13

314:9 391:7 394:11

394:18 414:10 482:19

485:14,15 500:5

conventionally 64:4

501:4

converged 456:11

conversation 16:18

139:13 200:10 211:14

266:3 384:22 414:18

415:13,19 504:15

505:16 511:22 512:1

523:4

conversations 211:15

419:19,21 495:3

conversion 206:20

485:14

convert 4:4 39:8 42:1

57:14 198:17 199:16

199:17 207:3 401:17

converted 177:22

206:11 274:18

converting 391:10

485:15

convince 242:14

309:14

Coody 2:14 107:17

116:10,11,12 120:2

120:11 121:7,9

cool 30:13 183:11

cooled 194:11

cooperation 145:8

291:19

cooperative 214:19

292:7

cooperatives 210:14

coopers 350:7

coordinate 212:22

coordination 132:12

coordinator 265:14

copper 4:11,14 346:20

346:20 347:5,5,6,12

347:14,16 348:4,22

349:2,3 357:19 358:9

359:9 417:7

copper-based 347:7

coppers 4:12 346:20

347:5,20 348:12,15

348:20 350:6

copy 192:21

core 285:18

corn 171:5 212:14

216:8 309:6 389:20

389:22 390:20 393:6

393:8,19 440:1,6

corporate 39:2 97:20

243:3,15

corporation 36:4 37:4

correct 27:19 66:5

76:11,12 80:14

192:11 258:11 279:18

296:10 298:6 324:12

329:11 352:15 392:9

493:22 528:5 539:13
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

554

corrected 353:4

correcting 352:17

correction 352:19

correctly 27:22 264:1

correlating 361:21

corrosive 322:20

corrupt 212:8

cost 108:20 170:1

197:18 309:13 336:20

costs 285:7

Council 3:9 159:4 168:2

243:5 269:19,21

count 523:19 528:18

counter 278:15 279:5

394:14 472:2

counterion 222:11,12

counterpart 144:9

counterparts 93:2

counting 523:20

countries 211:5 217:7

217:16 218:2 219:5

312:22

country 13:9 72:12

95:20 212:10 227:9

227:21 230:5 303:7

303:11 315:9

County 145:2 290:19

couple 40:14 44:13

145:1 203:14 226:13

229:20 239:7 259:22

288:12 294:8 309:20

373:22 383:15 450:14

462:2 483:9 486:9

505:17

coupled 115:8 130:20

135:7

course 18:21 30:5

50:13,20 83:3 101:3

106:14 115:10 120:3

125:7 208:1 245:7

274:11 337:11 393:8

415:6 432:18 435:21

439:1 440:6 459:17

472:17,18 476:19

479:2 480:17 482:11

483:9 484:18

cover 12:4 30:2 59:4

288:1,2 406:6 451:20

452:2 465:8 503:4,8

covered 42:5 254:19

375:18 410:17

covering 289:7

covers 344:22

cow 436:3

cows 435:20 515:18

CP 2:20 3:3 179:15

182:8

crack 280:6

cracked 33:11

cracks 220:6 341:9

342:15,20 516:2

crafted 446:7 473:6

Craig 243:6

crazy 231:1,3

cream 166:11 256:13

256:20

creamier 164:20

creams 194:2

creamy 164:21 168:21

172:5

create 24:16 37:4 52:7

53:1 81:15 92:3

110:18 139:13 157:6

181:7 183:17 187:4

190:2,5 191:16 236:2

454:5 501:13 512:10

514:11 524:22

created 48:11 205:21

494:3

creates 119:4 143:9

creating 50:22 111:5

131:13 139:9 232:21

creation 37:20 513:13

creators 140:15

creatures 39:12

crevices 341:9

crews 389:11

cringe 425:2

crises 55:19 56:5

crisis 55:17 56:4,6

criteria 42:19 54:18

192:16 208:11 219:11

294:2 343:11 366:6

402:19 409:11

critical 10:22 54:14

104:12 122:7 151:5

151:11 152:4 160:9

226:2 227:9 257:11

271:4,17 272:19

347:22 348:15 387:18

424:6,12,14

critically 99:2 118:22

criticisms 488:14,18

489:6

criticizing 146:13

critiques 77:9

cropping 59:4 358:20

406:6 451:20 452:2

495:10

crops 4:7 11:12,18

14:13 28:1 30:2 53:19

66:4 75:11 81:22

93:16 103:6 116:22

118:4 147:16 157:22

191:10 246:13 265:15

282:5 287:20 288:1,2

288:10,12 291:1

292:17 296:9,15,19

298:9,17,22,22

299:11 300:2 301:4

301:15 320:15 322:14

322:15 328:14 337:3

337:16 341:2 342:3

343:10 348:1,5 356:9

361:14 374:19 375:12

375:20 377:1 378:15

378:22 381:12,20

382:8 383:18 386:20

390:5 392:15 399:21

400:8 407:9 419:5

422:21 423:4 428:18

432:7 434:8 435:8,12

436:16 451:6,14

452:10 457:7 459:3,5

459:7 465:8,15

478:18 482:6 494:14

503:5 542:2

crops' 38:15

cross 272:5

crucial 103:3 225:20

crucify 471:11

cruelty 150:3 153:5

crusade 67:22

Cruse 2:14 253:21

265:10,13,13 268:22

crust 60:18 192:18

491:3 511:14

crystals 170:3

CS 403:8,15 459:18

463:8

CSA 19:12

CSF 103:14

CSO 189:20 192:9

Cuatro 2:8 36:3,9

cubic 277:6

cucumbers 12:13

190:13

Cufone 2:15 196:4

200:4,5 203:20 204:6

204:17

culpability 273:16

cultivation 72:4

cultivators 475:17

cultural 333:14 348:13

467:12

culture 24:11

cup 184:1

curious 16:5 25:21

46:19 64:17 71:18

96:21 153:4 209:14

258:4 286:13 409:4

current 109:8 122:2,17

124:19 126:11 129:1

136:2 137:4 143:3,15

221:11 224:1 225:21

337:8 446:3,4 456:11

458:14 490:1

currently 49:14 66:5

110:6 144:2 165:5,8

178:6 179:1 182:22

188:8,22 192:11,17

208:14,16 225:12

249:2 272:9 303:21

336:14 371:13 406:11

411:20 490:12

curve 481:21

customer 207:21 491:8

customers 73:15

cut 68:2 74:20 173:19

253:19 281:9 290:1

301:21 339:10

cuttable 186:22

cutting 86:5 136:14

cuttings 88:21

cycle 92:2 191:2 309:2

434:15

cycled 287:18

cycles 59:5 440:11

445:21

cycling 191:2 440:5

478:17 501:8 509:19

cystine 310:1

D

d 369:1 474:17

dabbled 24:14

daily 512:3

dairy 3:5 60:17 66:16

66:20 77:18 102:7

148:18 149:2,6

159:14 165:17 166:12

167:1,5 168:6,9,15

169:2,3,8,18 170:8,19

171:12,14 193:6,7,9

193:15,17 194:3

195:7,21 252:13,13

252:19 253:16 435:18

Dairy-based 168:18

damage 38:19 138:8

329:5

damages 215:16

damaging 314:17

Damewood 2:15 67:12

81:3,3 84:7 85:17

86:16,20 87:3,5,19

89:4,18 91:13,16

damn 68:21

damping 452:10

Dan 1:18 2:11 5:5 7:19

7:21,22 8:4 23:17

43:10 44:10 74:18

75:2 97:16 261:6
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

555

333:10 350:11 409:2

481:16 486:18 487:4

515:2 518:18 522:21

523:16 531:5,14

Dan's 420:4

dare 513:12

data 17:5 132:4 183:6

190:12,15 224:20

249:6 250:13,22

251:5,6,7 293:18

295:14 296:21 298:20

436:15 439:13 460:18

461:13 492:2 497:14

499:15

database 261:19,22

262:10 266:17,20

date 106:5 140:22

150:9 365:7,8 392:7

daughter's 57:11

Dave 1:16 25:11 43:10

46:15 63:17 64:6

129:16 133:10,10

139:14 209:13 213:4

237:9 244:5 290:1,2

343:16 377:10 394:7

416:10 494:21 540:18

David 2:18 3:14 133:15

282:3 291:9 302:12

302:15 306:6 353:3

Davis 21:9 286:21

303:22

Davis' 311:5

day 7:9 76:22 82:8,10

82:11,14 115:11

154:18 208:2 215:11

215:11 223:18,19

281:3 292:4 305:18

305:19,22 306:2

310:21 413:4 414:2

427:5 436:6 464:11

472:8 503:19 513:6

515:18 542:1

day-to-day 446:12

days 8:18 52:4 57:9

173:18 175:2 254:9

254:12 304:15 401:22

410:2 462:3 464:4

483:10 505:17

days- 401:5

DDT 500:21

de 1:15 171:4,18 172:8

325:13 326:11 327:22

335:2 340:5 344:5

346:12 350:19 353:16

357:4 360:2 366:19

367:21 370:4 373:2

381:11,22 386:9

397:15 398:20 416:21

418:11 426:19 430:9

510:9 531:22 536:14

538:20 541:4

deadline 295:6

deadly 230:7

deal 30:13 35:19 41:6

89:14 101:3 214:20

214:21 227:4 230:15

230:21 253:1 254:10

285:6 290:13 376:13

413:20 414:4 456:4

481:22 497:21

dealing 33:5 35:18

230:1,2 284:18

322:15 411:2

dealt 30:17,18 152:19

Dean 243:10

dear 256:15 471:3

debate 33:2 78:20

244:15 460:4 488:6

529:7,17

debating 317:7 459:22

505:20

decades 391:8 464:1

decanol 374:10 375:7

396:19

decide 26:16 69:4 70:8

307:12 313:10 519:10

527:18

decided 59:20 156:7

299:8 342:22,22

decision 8:13 26:5,7,11

54:3 75:15 109:19

198:6 226:6 302:8

395:14 396:2 408:18

408:20 444:16 485:13

506:11 524:13

decisions 26:8 38:12

54:13,20 110:21

408:5 480:10

decisive 280:9 340:12

489:13

deck 56:22 273:4 312:6

315:14

declared 262:11

declined 150:15

decomposing 438:14

dedication 189:19

deemed 407:1 447:7

deep 83:11 277:1,2

deeper 507:19

deeply 9:9 134:14

defeated 513:22

defeating 472:6

deficiencies 55:9

deficiency 354:12

355:15 356:1,2 358:6

358:22

deficient 452:14

defies 496:2 498:17

define 8:13 16:16 27:22

66:7,11,19 87:7 89:1

93:5 149:13 538:11

defined 17:19 21:21

35:10,16 66:17 67:5

83:20 84:2,21 201:5

221:21 335:14 339:9

432:11,19 433:13

441:9 445:19 448:18

449:17 530:21 531:7

531:10 537:12 540:11

defines 10:12 141:3

defining 20:17 40:20

84:14 149:14 285:14

definitely 16:7 88:10

107:10 120:12,15

251:1,7 260:2 263:4

415:9 487:8 504:14

510:11 511:6 522:22

definition 20:16 38:6

58:10,12,15 65:15,18

66:9,14 85:5 92:11

104:21 109:13,17

111:19 123:5 141:9

143:14,15 448:13

449:22 450:9 473:5,6

473:13 532:12 535:21

537:11 539:16

definitions 39:4 58:19

111:12 256:5,9

530:19,19

definitive 161:19 480:7

defoliant 354:10 358:4

degrading 339:1

degree 126:22 502:4

degrees 36:15,16

401:11,21 402:16

405:12,15

delay 228:12 241:3

247:5 379:11,12

delaying 419:2

delays 150:11

deletion 400:7

deliberate 408:18

deliberated 382:20

deliberating 391:5

deliberation 385:17

400:19 407:8 409:17

deliberations 302:5

377:1 382:6 383:18

402:5 430:3

deliver 184:17 440:19

demand 54:9 245:11

314:5,15

demanded 100:1

demanding 9:14

demands 195:20

democratic 82:18

demonstrate 50:7

113:2 135:2 336:21

demonstrating 112:21

Denver 215:3

deny 505:5 511:3

denying 104:14 511:4

department 1:1 18:15

57:5 125:16 135:16

363:12

depend 12:19 39:13

dependence 125:21

dependent 229:2

dependents 38:1

depending 17:10 195:5

224:4

depends 17:7 194:15

depleting 103:22

depletion 144:22

deposits 351:11

depth 251:12

Deputy 2:5 99:10

derived 133:18 222:20

335:16 339:11 401:8

deriving 365:1

dermal 387:15

describe 58:19 238:10

361:19 449:11 473:14

described 44:21 131:2

186:14 255:2 405:9

449:13 450:13 456:13

describing 286:10,15

description 267:10

desert 498:6

deserve 291:17 469:11

deserves 526:7

desiccant 354:11 358:5

design 56:9

Designated 2:6

designation 183:4

208:8

designed 447:16 484:2

designing 479:22

desirable 141:13 178:2

desire 185:6

desired 51:12 194:10

desorption 274:13

despite 51:20

destroy 68:18

destroyed 309:11 485:8

destruction 57:17

144:7

detailed 121:4 137:21

255:13 409:22 420:22

488:5

details 180:13 239:4

275:16 321:3 382:19
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

556

detasseling 393:5

determinations 109:3,7

198:4 262:20 480:12

determine 51:13 403:9

403:16 404:1 416:6,7

421:2 493:6

determined 170:16

233:4

determining 263:6

473:18

detrimental 107:9

devastate 73:3

devastated 230:12

develop 30:10 106:1

123:5 150:13 266:11

280:21 288:22 319:22

508:3

developed 71:21

200:11 213:11 260:19

274:13,22

developers 183:15

developing 25:4 72:4

130:12 131:11 246:10

development 36:4

118:14 143:3 147:21

148:2 161:10 361:18

374:20 400:10 505:3

505:4

develops 107:13 430:4

DEVON 2:4

devote 189:17

dialogue 7:12 121:5

140:6

diatomaceous 101:21

126:14 229:18

Dicamba 394:17

dicots 223:15

dictate 70:9 132:19

dictated 132:6

Dictionary 141:3

die 308:14 317:17,18

dies 284:15

differ 129:1,2

difference 22:3 235:14

235:16 387:20 438:1

438:2 458:10 503:5

503:13 534:3

differences 11:7 15:3

22:4 78:19 185:1

186:20 222:9

different 10:14 13:8

17:5 26:12,16 28:7

62:16,17 76:15 82:6

83:8 84:11 92:20

127:8,17,22 128:10

128:16,17,18 160:21

163:5 175:12 176:8

181:12 182:11,14,15

183:13 204:11 230:5

232:2,2,3,4 263:12

274:14 275:5 286:21

325:5 345:1 381:14

386:21 387:3 411:18

438:11 439:18 440:20

443:2 456:17 458:11

468:18 491:10,14

492:20 493:9,12

503:4 504:14 506:15

511:9 516:15 518:20

523:19

differentiate 15:9 27:22

75:19

differentiated 93:1

differentiates 56:8

differentiation 103:14

118:1 481:13 533:20

535:4

differently 14:1 160:8

293:13 411:9 484:19

differing 195:19

difficult 14:12 20:2,19

117:5 134:9 186:3

241:18 293:20 308:5

320:6 330:17 333:7

342:16 348:6,6

481:20 489:22 524:12

difficulty 134:7 137:14

digestate 4:18 104:15

104:17 399:18 400:1

401:3,3,8,19 402:9,12

403:3,5 404:3,11,20

405:10,18,22 406:2,9

406:11,19 407:9

408:14 409:6 410:11

410:16,19 416:1

417:18

digester 401:9,13 405:3

410:17

digesting 420:5

digestion 402:21

404:14,16 417:12,14

digests 415:3

digging 513:8

dignity 38:21 94:4

digress 514:3

dihydrate 154:22

dinner 211:12

dioxide 4:9 102:9

126:15 270:11 271:21

321:2 322:2 324:13

326:7 497:1,6,7,15,18

dips 168:18

direct 205:18 321:16

341:1 343:9 510:5

directed 100:10

direction 51:17 109:5

138:5 394:15 478:10

486:11 489:7

directions 321:22

directly 6:22 13:1

101:16,20 132:16,18

160:7 201:9 289:3

511:13

director 2:3 53:17 57:3

81:4 107:19 121:17

133:16 150:1 159:3

200:5 210:9 221:4

283:2

Directors 18:13 57:10

67:16 72:14 79:20

81:11

dirt 201:9,18,21 202:2

203:11 245:3 246:1

476:11 513:8

dirty 216:22 477:19

disagree 69:5 376:8

384:5 474:8 487:19

disallow 319:17

disappeared 417:6

disappearing 474:14

disappears 284:15

disappointed 101:10

202:8 234:1 377:22

disapproved 534:8

disaster 318:19

disclose 6:7

disclosure 69:3 70:3

493:8

discord 526:19

discourage 514:18

discuss 226:5 227:16

280:11 302:22 312:12

346:21 372:2 389:8

519:15,17 528:2

discussed 86:6 108:18

123:17 157:13 223:6

279:16 296:11 338:3

344:21 375:1 377:7

381:21 404:8 412:22

428:20 443:16

discussing 44:3 214:19

534:4

discussion 4:20 26:7

54:16 58:16 63:12

85:4 104:6 108:3,8

112:5 139:9,22

141:20 157:17 159:17

160:5,11,18 198:7

213:6 225:18 315:19

317:6 329:13 367:12

379:7 380:1,8 388:1

394:6 408:22 411:18

415:15,19 423:15

425:5,15 428:4 429:2

429:3 432:8,9 442:6,9

443:7,12 446:9

454:10 457:4,11

469:15 525:13,20

527:12,20 528:5

530:3,17 533:10,14

535:17,18 537:5,8

discussions 215:10

302:5 362:14 378:14

389:13 429:6

disease 110:16 114:21

161:11 347:4,22

348:10 486:1

disease-suppressant

452:12

diseases 151:9

disenfranchised

462:17 475:5

disestablishment

316:7 317:1

disincentive 143:6,9

disinfect 228:3

disinfectant 248:19

271:16 272:4 321:18

disinfectants 42:16

147:10,16 321:13

323:11

disodium 168:14

disparaging 260:5

dispassionate 480:12

dispel 206:3

dispersion 194:20

dispute 141:11

disqualifier 393:19

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414:2

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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327:5

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250:8 251:10 252:8

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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Irwindale 308:7

Isaura 2:8 18:7 35:21

35:22 36:2

Island 410:14

isolate 275:17

isolation 413:7

issue 8:18 16:7 24:1

44:9,12 50:5 52:20

54:4 58:2 59:20 68:3

68:6,7 81:12 99:3

108:9,22 120:4 124:7

125:21 128:7 142:3

152:19 188:12 200:12

204:8 210:18 221:15

229:7 231:12 244:2

257:11 267:3 278:14

305:16 338:17 342:2

344:21 381:19 387:13

388:8,16 390:12

399:9 413:21 422:16

423:2 430:5 456:4

459:17,21 481:20

482:9 488:7 492:20

495:22 496:6 498:1

509:3 515:2 523:8

525:5

issued 201:4

issues 35:7,14 40:13

41:19 42:6 56:2,7

81:7 113:14 116:4

117:5 128:5 139:7,10

140:8 141:21 148:3

150:17 152:13 204:2

232:3,12,16 238:14

269:8 270:2,5 329:3,5

333:22 412:15 480:13

508:15 510:4 511:10

524:12

Italy 219:4

item 44:1 328:3 335:7

340:17 344:11 354:4

370:19,20 373:19

379:8,12,13 403:18

419:3 526:18 541:19

items 41:17 100:9

126:18 138:22 142:17

168:19 208:20 308:3

348:20 368:13 418:21

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J

j 351:9 354:8 358:2

360:21

Jacksonville 1:9,9

jam 180:7,17 186:15

188:6

jam-packed 7:2

James 315:22

jams 162:7 181:7

184:18

January 155:15

Japan 277:19

Jay 49:18 53:14,16

56:18

Jeff 2:13 9:2 121:13,14

126:6,6,8

Jefferson 471:15,17

Jeffrey 126:5

jellies 162:7 181:8

jelly 180:18

JENNIFER 2:5

Jenny 2:14 253:21

261:5 265:10,11,13

Jerry 21:9

jersey 436:4

Jesse 1:12 244:5 247:4

294:13 296:6 299:14

334:9 346:2 356:16

374:4,7 375:5 381:17

390:8,10 396:21

398:4 418:1 492:18

494:21 533:4 536:3

540:17

Jessica 3:3,12 176:22

179:10,11,14 182:12

183:10 193:3 196:3,5

196:6

Joanna's 57:11

job 18:18 54:14 59:7

284:2 294:10 393:12

394:4 456:1

Joelle 1:16 16:1 64:16

111:9 119:19 162:22

165:14 172:9 234:16

236:8 334:10 372:20

397:2 407:4 410:21

412:12 413:5 427:18

504:10 506:8

John 2:9,12,13 5:5 18:6

18:8,10 21:8 28:13

204:19 210:6,8 213:3

213:4 214:7 215:20

216:1 220:9,17 282:3

312:7 315:13,14,16

315:18 320:9,12

John's 251:3

Johnson 2:20 126:6

129:15,15,22 130:1

133:6,8

join 97:8

journey 37:8

judge 472:3

judgment 408:8

judiciary 471:21

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juices 180:3 181:13

juicing 185:19

Julia 2:11 133:10

138:11,14 141:17

Julie 3:13 93:10 99:6,7

99:12 102:18

July 429:8

jump 81:21 258:18

519:1

June 374:13

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181:21 182:6,7 185:8

185:11 186:19 187:18

187:22 188:4,10,14

188:16 189:7

justification 192:7

363:2 492:6

justifications 189:22

justify 38:12 105:3

376:22 489:4

justifying 104:2 109:18

412:3

K

Kahn 243:11

kale 192:4

Kanalani 2:10 154:7

Kandt 2:21 225:4 231:8

231:10,11 234:20,22

236:11,15,18,20

237:1,3,6,8,14,17,19

238:15,21 239:13,18

239:20 240:4 246:14

Karlin 2:21,21 40:4

49:17,20,21,22 53:13

Karreman 251:20

Kathleen 243:14

Kay 2:16 243:11

keep 7:9 19:15 49:12

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97:8 115:17 124:17

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184:4 257:12 288:15

298:16 299:9 316:17

319:21 330:19,20

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371:18 477:13

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231:11 237:10

Kelco 2:20 3:3 179:15

182:8

Kelly 2:15 67:12 80:20

80:22 81:3 83:18

87:14 93:9

kelp 175:10,16,17

245:21

Kentucky 210:16

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93:10,13,14 96:14,17

96:22 97:4,8,12 98:5

99:5

Kersherman 244:17

key 54:4 75:2 180:2

266:2 482:14 491:7

kick 444:19

kicked 309:19

kids 498:3,5

Kiki 2:19 102:19 107:16

107:19 111:21 114:2

116:9 269:7

kill 249:9 250:14 307:11

402:20

killed 319:15

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471:18 500:8 516:15

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kit 102:15

Kittle 56:19,19,20 67:10

67:10,11

Klope 158:22

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171:10 172:1,13

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295:6

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knowing 56:1 95:18

257:7 451:4

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

569

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273:6,7 276:11 277:3

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281:14

L

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56:10 69:4 70:4,6

71:15 74:8 83:9,10

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275:1,2,10,12 407:11

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89:21 120:5,21 204:1

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390:22 393:18,20

461:19

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366:10 376:19 425:3

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233:11

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67:11,13,14,15 70:18

71:22 72:13 73:8,12

74:21 75:18 76:8,12

76:16 77:13,17,21

78:3,9,11,21 79:19

80:19

larvae 304:2,3,4,8,10

304:16 305:4,21

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457:13

late 22:10 36:15 221:15

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478:16

Latin 134:3 188:19

471:22

Laughter 423:13 427:7

487:10 490:16 494:7

518:5 522:5,8 534:20

Lauren 2:20 126:6

129:15,15,19 130:1

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55:8,20 80:7 122:16

213:19 233:1 316:6

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524:22

lawgiver 472:3

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306:3

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358:13 361:4 368:16

369:1,3,4,19 371:5

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258:10 260:22 261:20

262:22

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442:12

Lee 2:16 182:3 189:9,10

189:13 192:19

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203:10 245:16 246:8

246:8 399:15 434:20

468:18 504:11 527:6

527:7 533:13

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408:15,15 413:12,13

517:9

letters 15:19 411:14

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498:6,8

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79:2,9 125:9 127:17

128:8,14 129:3

164:16 169:15 170:5

172:11 180:19 181:3

207:13,16,17 268:2

287:5 422:19 442:17

448:8,15,16,19,22

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516:9

levels 24:17 164:8

166:4 167:15 172:16

176:3 183:14 190:10

190:15 321:15 448:6

448:13 449:12 450:13

453:12 454:15 455:4

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(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

570

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466:8 468:9 501:3

513:15

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29:15 134:16 176:6

176:16 478:15 527:19

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LIMA 1:15 171:4,18

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353:16 357:4 360:2

366:19 367:21 370:4

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416:21 418:11 426:19

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255:17 301:5 321:19

392:6 430:20 433:16

433:18,22 441:4,6,12

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537:21 538:1,5

539:19,21 540:6,8,14

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185:10 431:3

limitations 25:3 32:10

86:12 431:7

limited 2:18 102:14

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345:4 452:6,15,16

537:16

limiting 7:10 39:11

195:15 396:1

limits 124:20,22 125:11

515:4,4

line 20:9 33:4 84:17

94:12,15 169:14

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503:11

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103:9,18 124:20,22

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470:11 537:22 539:21

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167:2,3,22 168:6,13

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227:13,18 228:7

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542:4

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101:16 106:17 109:10

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228:7 272:18 301:10

328:10 338:5 341:12

344:16 347:3,11

351:10 354:9,13

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313:16 464:13 469:3

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159:21 161:12,17

361:11 496:9

little 13:3 14:8,22 15:20

16:19 20:8 21:6,22

25:21 44:12 53:22

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91:7 128:4 134:20

155:8,9 239:6 242:10

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262:7 269:7 279:3,11

283:20 289:21 310:4

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79:4 151:19 191:10

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187:10

LMC 186:20 187:7,8

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lobby 264:11 265:1

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458:20

locate 218:3

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308:9

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488:4

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40:9 70:2,19 90:13

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42:14 44:2,22 46:1,3

47:2 60:22 62:22

89:10 91:21 92:5

98:14 125:14,21

126:1 128:6 165:7

184:10 186:1 214:15

219:5 227:3 230:17

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414:10,19 420:9

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480:7 481:4 492:4,11

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268:20 385:5 506:19

521:18

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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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116:10,12 119:18

121:2

Lyons 3:5 189:10 193:3

193:4,5

lysine 307:1,6 309:22

M

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447:10

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280:17 305:6 307:10

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423:8

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19:5 23:1,3 117:11

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417:11 452:9 484:3

504:5

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302:15

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191:15

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134:14 209:21 260:5

347:8,13

manual 5:14 113:6,9,16

131:11 333:16

manufacture 223:1

manufacturer 126:10

166:10 179:16 222:15

manufacturers 133:18

159:5 184:17 262:4,6

manufactures 403:6

manufacturing 39:3

181:20 185:21 193:8

352:2

manure 13:2 60:17

104:18 246:2 308:19

402:7,9,14 403:8,14

403:17 405:10,16

406:13 409:8,9,12,13

409:20 410:3 412:20

413:2,3 414:7,8,12

420:4 509:9,11

manure-based 411:2

manures 406:14 465:9

manuring 484:5

March 228:16 365:10

472:21

Margaret 244:19,20

marginalize 95:13

Marianne 2:15 196:4

200:1,5

marine 42:22 105:11,20

105:22 106:13,17

107:2 133:18,20

134:2,6,8,12,17

135:16 384:4

Marisol 3:9 265:11

269:17,18

maritime 213:14,19

Mark 244:18

market 54:9 56:9 64:22

117:10 162:12 163:12

171:7 178:13 179:8

182:14 183:7 184:20

191:15 245:11 278:4

372:9 442:13 444:4

446:5 457:15 493:6

505:12,13,19

marketer 180:4 210:12

marketers 215:10

marketing 179:15 193:8

210:10 236:21

marketplace 15:18 39:5

214:17 285:9 362:17

457:13 491:22

markets 12:18 108:17

160:21 173:4 214:12

Marlin 53:12

marmalades 181:8

184:19

Marni 2:21 40:4 49:17

49:18,21

Martine 190:9

Marty 3:7 231:9 240:5,6

240:9 243:21 247:15

248:5,8 384:15

mass 184:1,10 276:4,7

276:10 277:6

Massachusetts 8:7

12:21 13:12 14:2

massive 139:16 215:13

313:22

massively 317:21

master's 502:4

match 128:17

material 117:2 148:20

155:5 164:14 174:20

179:2 186:7 223:13

273:17 276:7,10

279:9,12 288:19

289:2,13 292:11

293:8,19 294:6

295:20 296:3 300:5

310:9 322:8 324:1

329:15 337:17 342:7

355:1 357:15 358:20
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

572

360:14 363:7 364:3

365:9 375:1,1 376:10

380:4,21 382:9,13

383:5 386:14 389:5

401:20 402:3,13

404:4 405:19 407:18

408:3,9 411:7 416:6

437:18 438:12,13

450:6 453:14 487:16

502:11,13

materials 2:4 4:8 20:22

41:16 42:15,17,22

51:7 92:4 101:15

102:3,12 105:3

106:13,17 109:4

116:19,21 117:1

133:20 134:2,12

139:18,20 177:16,19

177:20 178:3,9,22

179:6 202:10 221:20

227:17 238:11,18

239:10 256:15,22

258:2,14,21 259:9,12

259:16,20 262:16

270:7,12 287:19

289:2 321:1,6,11,14

322:1,5 324:2,13

331:12,14 345:2

346:20 347:8,16

352:4 362:21 363:2,4

363:6,8 365:1,4,14

382:18 384:4 387:20

393:16 401:4,15

403:20 405:2 406:9

406:20 408:11 414:21

415:4,8,9 417:13

438:20 452:8

matrix 450:3

mats 537:17

matter 63:5 75:15 84:1

107:4 156:16 259:21

263:1 282:10 310:15

404:2 419:6 435:20

436:4,6 438:8 439:6,9

439:10 440:12 452:5

542:6

matters 6:8 202:11

Matthews 156:14 158:4

mature 23:12,14 41:19

maturing 41:8

Max 2:17 282:3 302:12

312:6,8,10 315:10,11

maximize 24:19,19

maximum 321:18

402:17

Maxwell 2:17 312:11

Mayfield 3:6 248:13,14

252:18 253:16

Mayfield-Davis 240:6

McEvoy 212:5 217:21

McMILLAN 3:6 146:19

149:20,22 150:1

152:18 153:7,17

meal 22:12,12

mean 13:19 14:21

16:21 36:12 61:8,11

65:8 75:10 79:6 88:3

91:20 112:6 120:16

128:3 137:10 174:19

175:2,11 186:14,15

238:4 244:19,21

245:3 264:10 279:3

297:11 306:1 319:7

319:14 320:7 330:3,7

330:11 332:15,20

378:13 382:5 383:3

384:21 385:2 390:11

393:15,16 408:22

411:1 423:11 454:22

455:9,12 463:14

464:9 499:11 506:17

508:5 516:11 521:18

522:11 523:20 527:16

533:13 535:11

meaning 43:7 472:5

meaningless 64:1,3

means 16:22 38:17

42:21 49:7,15 81:18

81:18 106:6 238:7

275:9,10,12 496:3

517:1,1 531:6

meant 33:3 420:3 460:3

514:17

measurable 113:21

131:16 167:14

measure 14:18

measurements 135:8

490:7

measures 112:22 207:5

Meat 243:5

mechanical 467:13

mechanism 383:12

mechanized 508:1

media 21:2 23:5 32:21

34:11 65:21 66:5

103:22 155:21 248:21

447:17,19 451:7

452:6,17 453:8,12

478:7,18 487:16

488:20 490:3 537:13

mediating 499:4

medical 80:9

medium 10:16 200:15

304:4,5 311:13

437:18 472:14

meet 20:15 66:18,21

67:6 92:22 105:2,4

110:5 111:3 113:13

130:13 181:10 182:14

190:6 195:20 200:19

219:11 228:15 285:13

295:21 308:8 336:19

410:5,8 441:4 451:2

454:17 455:10 456:14

459:2 463:12 480:4,4

517:16 521:11 539:19

540:6

meeting 1:5 5:15 8:22

40:13 41:18 45:11

48:12 58:9 67:19

91:19 100:22 101:1

104:7 120:20 127:3

131:10 139:18,19

142:17 158:2 165:3

165:11 184:22 197:14

202:11 208:10 215:3

215:6 218:15 241:17

242:13 244:22 247:19

247:20 248:9 254:7

255:10 264:19 292:1

294:1 314:22 338:16

374:22 399:22 428:21

443:9 448:4 480:5

509:13 525:15 534:12

534:16

meeting's 50:7

meetings 27:18 67:21

98:8 225:17 377:3

443:10 459:17

meets 61:17 201:5

298:5 336:14 402:6

407:22 521:13

Melinda 3:6 240:6

248:10,11,14

member 18:15,21 46:17

55:2 99:15 168:1

178:6 207:22 210:14

481:17 513:12

members 6:1,9 8:8 9:17

19:20 27:3 28:7 32:17

34:6,7,10 40:11 47:16

49:12 54:15 77:20

78:7 93:18 94:14

96:21 99:11,21

121:19 129:18 133:13

177:10 189:14 191:11

220:16,18 225:22

240:2 242:7 254:1

258:17 259:4,5,15

260:16 262:15 272:17

282:8,14 298:7 314:4

314:15 315:4 333:15

341:11 379:4 419:10

419:18,20 443:12,18

446:1 463:12 474:7

476:18 493:21

membership 65:3

254:13

memo 217:20,20

403:21

memorandum 42:13

124:5

memory 37:6 263:22

mention 180:5 223:9

319:16 340:11 342:19

493:11 519:14

mentioned 23:18 32:14

32:16 44:5 75:4 77:4

97:13 152:6 163:2

175:7 180:16 192:8

195:3 223:8 235:5

237:19 247:5 323:15

405:13 428:6 479:14

483:1 493:20 510:19

mentor 470:18

mentors 9:1

meringue 256:18

merit 9:11

merits 9:19

Merrigan's 243:14

Mesh 3:7 231:9 240:6,9

240:9 243:19 244:9

244:13,17 246:6

247:12,17 248:6

mesophilic 405:14

407:12

mess 242:9

message 218:14 306:9

met 1:8 14:20 32:5 33:1

34:13,18 156:1

450:13 453:20 472:16

meta-analysis 496:11

497:13

metabolism 280:8

metabolites 499:6

metabolize 273:16

metabolized 274:9

metabolizing 274:16

Metaphorically 522:9

meter 276:8,14 277:12

methanogenic 401:14

401:17

methionine 151:16

152:5 302:19,22

303:5 304:6,15,18

306:4,11,17,19 307:1

310:1

method 92:14,21 93:7

102:10 109:19 201:13

202:5 222:8,14 234:7

234:11 274:22 413:8

413:16 493:13
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methodology 405:8

methods 27:20 51:14

106:19 109:3,7,9,10

109:16,17 111:12,15

111:18 123:2,4

136:11,21 190:3

205:6 208:6 256:4,7

274:14 335:16 339:11

352:2 403:17 444:7

445:2 452:11 479:5

505:2 506:3

methoxyl 183:12,20

187:1,15

Mexico 36:5 39:18

78:11,13 189:1 243:7

283:6 470:22 498:7

micelle 194:6

Michael 243:8 244:19

517:9

Michelle 2:1 5:7,9 6:12

240:2 247:18 248:2

320:21 427:11 465:18

504:10

Michigan 2:12,12 18:11

18:16 28:18

micro-organic 504:22

microbe 279:1 280:3,3

280:4,5,9

microbes 273:16 274:6

274:6 275:15,21

280:11,20

microbial 448:11,12

452:8 498:20,21

microbiologist 407:5

microgreens 173:3,20

192:3

micrometer 276:13

micronutrient 354:20

356:4

micronutrients 4:13,13

106:9 354:5,9 355:5,8

356:14 357:17,18

358:3,16,19 359:8

465:21 468:7

microorganisms 275:5

275:18 439:12

microphones 391:21

microscope 174:12

mid 31:14

mid- 376:12

middle 117:17 384:8

460:8 463:13 517:4

middles 288:16 289:12

Midwest 12:2 86:14

309:19 334:1 491:13

migration 250:9

miles 135:14 212:5

217:21 218:5 456:21

469:3

military 514:2

milk 181:17 194:5,20

253:9 306:18 307:6

314:9,9

milking 515:18 516:16

milligram 276:8

million 150:5 270:20

305:17,19 306:2

311:16 312:21 469:21

485:19 497:6,7,7

millions 215:17

millipedes 449:3 516:1

mills 215:21

mimic 10:9 196:22

500:20

mind 84:13,20 122:10

213:17 232:20 318:20

477:14 482:21

mine 18:4 90:2 487:11

mineral 29:2 125:9

390:4,4 439:8,11

440:13

mineralizing 440:12

mingling 119:1

minimization 446:16

minimize 24:21 207:9

466:13

minimizes 347:8,13

minimizing 98:17

191:13

minimum 76:18 150:18

190:6 297:12 402:16

453:13 512:22

Minnesota 499:21

minor 196:21

minorities 34:22

minority 51:17 118:8,15

427:16,19 428:6

441:19 442:3,5,16,20

442:22 444:14 445:10

445:13,14 446:7,9

448:2,14 451:13

475:22

mint 102:2

minute 248:1 414:8

minute's 496:3

minutes 5:16,18 18:6

49:15 142:17 221:8

235:5 240:20 247:20

254:18 316:20,22

399:14 428:1 459:9

459:12 476:14 486:19

487:7 515:16

mirror 82:3 93:6

miscommunication

384:9

misconception 134:17

206:4

misinterpretation 28:2

mispronounced 196:4

missed 378:5

missing 101:5 227:10

491:8

mission 260:18

Mississippi 495:5

Missouri 475:2

mistake 68:14 497:22

misted 432:13 531:12

misunderstood 148:17

Mitchell 3:8 167:17

172:20,21,22 175:1,8

175:16,18,21 176:8

176:20

mite 155:1 230:7,8,15

340:21 343:8 344:15

mites 227:5 229:8,10

230:2,16,17 345:8

449:3

mitigate 42:21 197:19

mitigating 63:16

Mitigation 467:10

468:16

mix 374:10 396:19

398:1

mixed 15:12 401:9,11

402:12 405:3

mixes 172:4 401:20

MOA 28:14 474:7

mode 361:19

model 37:19 127:6

128:21 212:21

models 62:17

moderate 224:3

Modernization 207:12

271:13 403:13

modifications 192:14

modify 29:3

moisture 250:7 304:7

306:1 402:17 403:7

molybdenum 4:14

357:20 358:9 359:11

359:12

moment 5:22 395:17

money 38:13 70:1

217:1 287:7

monitor 136:5 179:8

336:3 434:17 468:11

monitored 136:11

monitoring 108:20

337:4,18 345:4

434:18 466:10

monocots 223:15

monocytogenes

271:18

monohydric 375:7

monomers 280:17

monosodium 168:14

Monsanto 68:19

Montana 210:14

month 173:21 174:1

228:11

months 21:2,14 22:5

108:22 215:2 216:14

217:22 440:8 526:19

monumental 463:9

mood 319:9

morning 5:4 8:2 36:2

49:14,21 53:16 57:2

67:13 93:13 102:21

107:18 108:2 116:11

122:13 129:22 133:12

133:14,20 138:13

139:15 142:13 146:20

147:1 167:18 193:4

213:6 221:3 225:6

252:21 541:20

Mortensen 1:16 46:16

47:11,20 49:9 63:18

64:8,14 129:11

139:14 209:14,22

210:3 213:5 214:5

237:10,16,18 290:3

291:5 325:17 326:15

327:12 334:14 339:17

343:17 346:16 349:19

351:1 353:3,20 357:8

360:6 367:1 368:3

370:8 373:6 377:6

385:21 389:7 394:8

397:5 398:10 416:11

418:15 427:1 494:22

527:1 532:4 536:18

539:2 541:8

MOSA 3:12 142:14

moss 448:21

MOSSO 1:16 16:2

64:17 96:19 97:2,6,11

97:15 111:10 165:15

165:21 172:10 236:9

236:13,16,19,22

237:2,5,7 325:15

326:13 327:10 334:12

340:7 344:7 346:14

349:17 350:21 353:18

357:6 360:4 366:21

368:1 370:6 373:4

385:19 397:3 398:22

407:7 411:1 413:6

417:1 418:13 426:21

441:20 454:16 455:3

455:6 504:12 532:2

536:16 538:22 541:6

mother 37:13 474:2
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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motions 324:2,22 325:6

360:20 523:22 524:16

527:3,5

mouse 313:17

mouth 63:14 249:15

322:21

mouthfeel 168:22

181:15

move 31:9 46:22 49:11

58:16 67:11 68:10

93:9 109:19 115:19

116:9 124:7 126:5

142:3,8,9 176:18

203:19 256:14 281:16

291:22 293:5 366:1

369:14 373:19 426:1

481:14 488:9 530:3

moveable 12:14

moved 294:3 325:9

396:3

movement 9:4 17:20

37:11 233:18 461:10

moves 53:9

moving 104:1,10

107:12 116:7 226:21

320:13 328:8 340:19

351:9 368:19 394:12

478:10,11 525:18

mow 330:5,9 331:19

332:1,13 333:7

Moyer 9:3

MRSA 250:15 251:14

mud 233:20

Muir 243:6

mulch 4:10 104:22

273:8,18 274:5,18

275:4,13,16 276:2,12

277:17,20,21 279:9

289:11 335:8,14

336:10,18 337:12

338:11 339:8

mulches 289:5,7

335:13 338:18 488:22

multiple 23:12 192:16

206:18 249:3 262:4

262:10 348:9 361:15

362:8 501:11,15,18

501:18 527:3,4

multitude 207:8

mushrooms 192:6

317:12

mutual 141:12

mutually 444:16

mycorrhizae 59:3

N

nail 66:7

name 6:5 7:22 8:4 18:9

18:10 31:21 35:22

40:5,7 49:19,21 57:1

57:3 67:13 81:1 93:11

93:13 99:8,12 102:21

107:18 116:11 121:14

126:7 128:11 129:20

129:22 133:11,15

138:13 142:11 146:22

147:2 149:21 154:5

167:18 172:22 177:1

177:3 179:11 182:4,7

183:4 189:10,13

193:4 196:5 200:3,4

200:11 204:20 211:13

221:2,3 225:5,6

231:10 240:7 248:11

254:2 260:4 265:12

269:18 273:5,6

282:18 283:2 291:10

302:14 312:8 315:16

362:4

names 183:3 263:14

naming 134:4

nano 106:4,7

nanomaterials 106:3,6

nanoscale 106:9

nanotechnology 106:3

Nate 53:15 56:18,20,22

57:3 60:8 64:17 67:9

NATHANIEL 3:4

national 1:3 2:2,2,3,4,4

2:6,10 3:16 33:22

34:3,4 40:19 42:18

51:1 100:4 101:2

107:6 116:21 121:18

126:13 129:1 147:3

148:13 158:1,6

167:22 168:6,13

177:13 178:15 191:7

226:15 227:13,18

228:7 250:18 259:9

259:13 260:8,14,17

260:19 261:1,14

262:19 264:15 270:8

270:18 278:11 321:9

368:20 374:17 392:19

397:22 411:22 460:16

475:4

nationally 107:21 130:3

nationwide 150:5

native 4:4 42:2 57:14

142:18,22 143:11,13

144:18 198:18 199:11

natural 2:9 57:18 75:8

90:12 100:6 103:12

161:7 169:1 230:17

237:22 257:2 260:12

291:12,22 297:2

318:18,19,20 369:18

371:13 453:3 458:16

496:1 512:5 513:17

naturally 135:22 177:14

179:17 209:16 222:3

222:6 237:12,22

271:7 351:11

nature 2:22 6:16 10:18

37:2 38:2 50:2 231:11

279:20 431:22 487:2

496:11 515:10

natures 408:12

NatureServe 145:16

NatureSweet 2:21

naughty 455:22

Nazarro 200:2

Nazzaro 3:8 204:19,22

205:1 208:16 209:3,6

209:18 210:2,5

near 7:9 51:21 173:14

256:15,19 329:18

nearby 205:2

nearly 41:9 131:17

272:5 312:21

Nebraska 495:6

necessarily 12:10

26:11 66:13 143:16

409:11,16 410:7

466:2 481:12 518:22

521:3 524:11 539:15

necessary 42:17 49:16

57:19 123:6 129:19

132:16 144:1 147:15

268:2 316:16 341:16

364:3 383:19 385:11

429:22 533:14

neck 320:6

need 16:14 17:14 20:6

23:4,15 41:19 42:15

44:1 48:21 49:3 52:22

54:5 58:18 59:20

61:12 62:21 63:12

64:6,9 66:12 69:1

70:4 85:18,19 88:18

89:22 90:17 104:6

107:22 115:22 117:2

117:11 122:20 126:3

129:3,18 130:4 140:1

143:13 144:17 146:6

149:3,5 150:17

163:19 166:16 171:13

178:22 190:1 192:11

202:21 212:22 218:7

218:20 219:22 250:3

253:13 257:5 258:22

259:19 260:10 262:16

267:2 268:19 270:6

285:9 295:20 297:14

298:1 306:1 312:3,15

315:8 318:7 319:21

323:2,9 330:11 355:1

366:10 385:3 422:4

424:6 455:10 457:14

475:9 476:1 484:18

492:6,14 493:22

499:15 506:3 511:16

514:13 526:12 537:10

needed 48:15 101:6

102:6 152:9 162:11

170:5 255:15 259:17

278:13 428:15 446:18

447:22

needs 23:7 104:4 111:3

118:17 127:10 144:7

144:8 180:19,22,22

182:14 204:11 224:16

263:5 266:14 268:6

314:2 409:20 446:2

negative 119:11 134:16

161:20 235:21 348:2

406:16 481:12 489:5

negatively 414:6

neglectable 276:18

neighbor 68:21

neighborhood 467:5,8

neighbors 469:4

474:22

neither 203:2 512:20

nematodes 431:19

449:5

nests 516:3

net 489:5,5

Netherlands 495:7

network 214:19

networks 64:18

neutral 63:9 169:9,12

never 10:1 20:5 28:5,7

30:22 34:16 35:4

82:17 106:7 149:6

192:7 310:8 330:2,7

527:11

new 23:2 36:4,11,16

39:18 40:18 44:1,6

46:16 54:21 58:12

82:5 83:2 89:9 92:12

92:19 117:12 123:20

128:20 187:7 191:3

202:12 203:3 205:4

231:22 232:12,15,16

243:7 258:5 271:10

278:18 288:16 336:8

396:2 448:2 451:12

476:4 495:6 498:2,4,7

502:10,13 524:22

news 311:15 475:4

NHC 269:21 270:4
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272:14

nice 304:10

nicotine 4:16 371:2

night 25:12 88:19

503:18

nightshades 296:15,19

nine 18:14 208:3

284:17 386:11

nitrate 124:3 242:15,20

440:2,9,13

nitrates 206:9 207:4

354:11 358:5

nitrification 207:1

nitrifying 207:1

nitrites 207:3

nitrogen 14:19 21:22

22:3,13,14 59:5,9,12

103:18 126:15 175:22

176:2 206:9 223:2

433:17,19,21 434:5,9

434:10,11,14 435:1,2

435:14 436:10,15

437:7,19 438:21

439:15 441:5,7,11

488:2 501:14,19

537:21 538:1,4

539:20,22 540:7,9,13

no-spray 467:6,8

no-tillage 406:8

Nobel 497:22

NOC 34:2 123:2,9 147:8

147:13,22 148:11

420:20

nodosum 134:18

NOFA 12:20

NOFA/Mass 2:11

nominated 78:4

non 223:1 224:18 266:9

267:3

non- 184:10 211:4

345:5,15

non-amidated 162:5,18

177:13 178:15

non-animal 171:19

411:4

non-arable 447:2

non-certified 8:9

non-containers 453:6

non-gmo 56:14 425:7

non-organic 425:8

non-production 221:9

non-retail 197:6,9

non-soil-based 444:13

444:15 446:8 448:1

non-starch 184:11

nonagricultural 198:2

Nonanoic 222:20

noncontinuous 114:17

nonfat 306:18 307:6

nonissue 378:17

nonorganic 100:3

114:18 421:9,22

425:13

nonprofit 107:20 130:2

nonsense 516:18,20

nonsynthetic 100:13

198:3 368:14,21

371:11 372:11 396:18

416:2,3,8

nonvolatile 102:10

nonylphenol 45:4

124:12

NOP 18:22 30:4 31:1

33:19 35:10 40:14

41:5 43:12 68:14

72:14 106:2 118:19

120:8 122:14,18,22

123:18 124:7 125:15

130:10 132:13 133:13

133:22 156:7,10,19

198:5,8 200:7 211:4,9

212:3 215:1,2,3

217:10 218:3,9,14

219:9 226:1 254:1

262:8,12 264:7

265:17 266:15,17,22

272:10 279:5 291:15

291:19 302:2 314:16

323:16 374:14 376:12

380:13 400:14 403:8

405:5,15 412:14,19

428:15 429:7,19

443:5 445:4 446:2

447:21 453:19 461:12

494:10,19 515:5

520:12 524:21

NOP's 266:20

NOPs 106:4 110:2

122:12

norm 83:15

normal 36:14 172:7

normally 18:1 434:12

450:1,10

Norman 499:22

North 292:22 391:3

495:5

Northeast 8:6 29:18

86:14

northeastern 63:3

78:15

northern 173:4 230:6

230:17

northwest 3:9 269:19

269:20 270:15 271:3

474:15

Norway 138:6

NOSB's 151:3 449:18

NOSBs 117:16 130:8

NOSP 358:21

not-so-beautiful 477:6

notable 167:15

note 123:14 166:6

209:11 353:8 407:16

416:9 461:10

noted 147:18 154:20

161:15 198:18 201:6

341:18 356:2 371:12

445:4 481:4 505:16

notes 49:2

noteworthy 272:8

notice 129:16 315:14

418:22 493:10

noticed 470:3 495:21

notified 292:2

nourish 511:13

nourishment 39:8

November 1:7 150:10

228:10 374:11

NPEs 124:12

NPK 500:12

NRCS 449:10

number 77:19 92:10

98:13,19 120:13

134:5 150:16 169:22

186:14 197:9 269:2,2

270:5 294:9 297:2

303:14 305:16 310:7

320:19 341:11 345:1

348:1 351:18 391:12

412:8 422:7 460:13

460:21 461:7 476:20

477:7 478:4 482:8

483:3,8 496:19 524:1

numbers 64:10 431:18

461:6 496:19

numerous 162:14

335:21 341:14 355:22

406:9 420:18,19,21

422:10 444:8 457:19

457:19 458:7

Nursery 191:17

nurturing 447:11

nutrient 24:16 65:22

110:15 174:21 206:6

206:11 417:10 432:14

434:15 436:10,15

531:13

nutrient- 499:1

nutrient-rich 450:2,4

nutrients 22:8 86:8

92:2 103:9 123:15,21

124:2 125:12,19

126:1 191:2 205:11

205:21 287:18 317:16

317:17 432:21 433:2

433:4 434:5,6,7,13

435:9,11 439:2

440:19 452:15,17,19

467:15 478:17 498:16

503:16 532:16,19,20

nutrition 160:14 175:6

192:6 289:4 470:11

501:14

nutritious 82:12 94:3

96:10

nuts 307:9

O

o'clock 282:7

OAD 154:22

OAKLEY 1:17 18:1

43:11 62:7 106:12,15

136:18 145:13 146:1

152:12 163:1 175:13

175:17 185:5,9

198:16 199:2 223:22

224:7,12 286:2

301:22 326:2,22

327:19 329:14 334:21

338:3 340:2 342:13

344:2,20 346:9

349:13 350:16 352:12

352:16 353:13 357:1

359:21 361:6 362:20

363:8 364:6,12,14

366:16 368:10 370:15

373:13 376:7 380:10

382:5 386:6 388:20

390:8,17 394:1

395:10 397:12 398:17

399:7,13,16 400:17

408:21 409:7 410:13

412:6 413:5,18

414:16 415:12,17

416:18 418:8 419:16

420:2 423:10 426:16

459:14 519:13 522:22

531:19 533:9,15

534:1,21 535:2,11

536:11 538:16 541:1

oat 114:10

oats 114:9

object 161:8

objected 80:2

objection 529:21,22

530:2,5

objections 436:17,19

obligated 463:6

observer 313:5

observing 178:4

obtained 177:18 199:11

409:5
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

576

obtaining 249:21

obvious 85:22 213:9

obviously 213:8 245:19

311:20 393:18 407:7

443:10,15 447:21

511:10

OCAs 93:22

occasions 389:8

occluded 22:18

occupational 322:18

occur 406:2

occurring 161:8 222:3

222:6 271:8 351:11

occurs 138:2 148:15

179:17

OCPA 472:16,18

483:16 508:10 515:3

octanol 374:10 375:6

396:19

octanol/decanol 398:1

October 221:15 355:13

470:1

odd-numbered 222:5

222:11

Odessa 212:19

OEFFA 2:11 138:15

140:16,17,21 141:14

OFARM 2:13 211:17

212:4 214:18 216:3

off-farm 488:18,20

offense 80:15 511:4

offer 139:15 141:19

205:5 457:21 482:6

offered 139:4

offers 482:22

office 499:20

official 2:6 301:3

officially 237:12

OFPA 27:12 33:1 34:13

42:11,19 50:16 54:1

103:10,16 104:3

156:1,3,9 313:10

316:5 317:5 343:11

Ohana 2:10 154:7

Ohio 138:14 210:15

OID 263:11

oil 139:2 177:21 185:19

390:3,4,4,5

oils 102:2,11

okra 246:17,18

old 22:7 113:6 143:20

173:18 497:10 518:13

oligofructose 263:22

OLPP 153:11,14,15

226:19 228:10 312:3

Olympia 57:7,10

omits 160:6

Omni 1:9

omnivore 449:5

OMRI 338:9 371:13

OMRI's 402:13

OMRI-approved 125:2

362:3

OMRI-certified 175:9

on- 467:14

on-farm 336:22

on-site 313:4

once 109:22 149:6

219:6 308:12 324:8

360:18 515:19

one's 115:11

one-third 216:5

OneCert 155:18

ones 17:12,13 23:12

146:8 182:18 247:2

260:16 279:2 286:5

409:16 510:21 511:11

ongoing 105:9 108:11

111:1 130:8 133:22

141:1 336:3

online 98:6

onus 408:19

open 5:22 48:11 49:6

136:20 139:13,17

145:15 148:18 157:8

220:19 264:14 288:16

289:12 380:12 384:16

454:9 477:14 492:11

open-air 457:6

opened 33:4 91:6

opening 33:5,8

operated 303:9 391:1

operating 72:21 80:11

119:5 261:21 434:11

451:5,13 463:1

operation 39:18 57:21

103:13 185:18 197:2

197:3,3 287:10

409:10 451:6 454:13

462:8 469:19,21

478:3 479:1 480:19

480:20 485:21 509:14

521:13

operations 4:5 11:17

42:1 63:12 75:5,13

79:13 97:19,20

102:13 112:20 117:7

117:9,20 121:6 122:3

138:4 140:22 142:14

142:15 147:17 149:2

156:7,12,17 185:22

196:12,16,20 228:15

245:20 255:16,18

265:19 286:18 287:12

291:4 313:6 341:20

390:21 391:13 446:12

451:1 453:4 456:12

457:20 458:17 461:9

461:15,17,18 462:22

470:10 479:13 482:16

488:17,19 493:9

510:17,18 514:22

515:4 516:19

operators 459:1

opinion 16:5,6 24:2

59:6 62:19 64:1

111:12 428:2 487:14

487:15 490:6 506:4

527:2,2

opinions 81:11 131:19

140:7 443:2 445:14

opportunities 147:22

148:2,7,9 285:16

379:18 475:8 514:11

opportunity 15:4 80:12

83:4 103:1 110:18

126:20 133:14 147:4

148:5 193:10 195:22

196:7 208:12 225:19

226:8 232:18 233:10

257:8 260:20 261:7

287:13 442:2 476:1,2

506:15 507:14 508:2

510:2,13

oppose 81:13 221:12

opposed 85:4 162:2

216:3,4 499:16 512:2

opposing 95:8 97:9

opposite 32:11 472:1

519:7

opposition 460:9

optimal 115:14

optimistically 283:22

option 120:22 183:17

184:17 201:16 317:14

396:9

options 186:12 362:9

481:11

OPWC 116:19 117:3

119:3

oral 140:10 221:16

270:6

oranges 177:17 179:1

orchard 271:5,15,22

504:1

order 57:19 58:16

156:12 304:8 310:16

324:19 336:19,20

385:9 391:9 419:12

426:5 445:12 497:17

514:13

Oregon 154:11 270:1

organically 32:9,22,22

34:11 95:19 132:10

132:11 155:22 179:3

223:12 240:13 249:5

290:10 391:6 456:22

472:14 518:14 520:20

organically-approved

92:4

organics 2:16 17:18

19:17 40:1 90:9

143:10 154:15,17,19

189:15 203:2 204:12

225:14 229:10 234:4

316:17 317:2 411:11

463:4 486:14 510:15

511:7,8

organism 38:1 191:10

224:4

organisms 140:19

157:5 329:17 335:15

339:10 365:2 411:6

415:1,5,11 438:9

447:14 448:15,16

organization 127:9

283:13,20 364:4

organization's 153:5

organizations 47:6

83:12 127:7 216:9

341:21 345:13 371:9

378:3 509:12

original 40:18 58:10

92:14 125:14 365:16

473:5,6,13

originally 80:1 211:3

originating 432:21

532:16

Orlando 242:13 244:22

Orleans 202:13

ornamental 328:13

ornamentals 317:12

430:22 434:1 441:13

538:6 540:15

OSA 131:10

OSAs 132:4

OSGATA 36:5

OSPs 90:13

OTA 57:4 58:4 197:16

259:4,4 262:8 264:7,9

420:20

OTA's 57:12 64:18

ought 9:11 313:7

out-compete 174:13

outbreaks 411:3 469:18

outcome 50:18 51:12

52:9,12,15 118:10

302:7 377:5 379:9

403:15

outcome-based 481:5

outcomes 50:22 51:5

51:15 52:16 73:10
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

577

outdoor 150:20,21

151:10 238:20,22

outdoor-based 304:13

outdoors 151:2 202:13

305:1

outer 60:18 192:18

491:3

outlining 59:7

outputs 38:4 317:20

outreach 80:13 261:15

outset 14:18

outside 79:6 144:10

191:19 275:21 419:19

419:22 452:21 458:6

470:10 513:8 514:9

outstanding 150:16

outweigh 197:18

over-harvested 134:19

overaccumulation

355:4

overall 91:3 156:18

169:21 294:1 342:6

348:14 351:17,20

overcome 178:19

overlapped 155:14

overly 81:16

oversight 41:12 122:1

122:11,20 256:1

331:5 414:11

overtime 76:19

overuse 348:4

overview 137:3

overwhelming 347:21

351:20 352:7 456:3

overwhelmingly 235:15

323:6

Ovieto 3:9 265:11

269:17,18,19 273:2

owned 173:2 200:22

303:9

owner 67:14 75:8

509:13

owner-operator 173:1

ownership 513:14

oxalic 154:22

Oxford 141:2

oxidative 364:18

oxide 347:5

oxides 4:13 357:19

358:8 359:9

oxidizing 222:16

Oxnard 283:4

oxychloride 347:6

oxyntic 394:9,12

oxytocin 148:11,12,13

149:3,8

P

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

5:1

p.m 247:19 282:11,12

419:7,8 542:7

P.S 318:9,18

Pacific 270:15 271:3

package 101:3 139:19

173:20

packaged 184:5

packaging 209:8

packer 272:13

packers 269:21 270:10

271:12

packet 254:10

packets 251:11,11

packing 271:6,15,22

272:3 332:16 341:7

341:17

page 254:10,15 512:21

pages 254:15

pain 252:4,7 320:5

panel 160:14 166:8

213:5 220:11 341:3

paper 216:19 338:6,9

338:11 496:11

papers 404:12

paperwork 127:1

318:15

paradigm 10:15

paradigms 519:5

paragraph 321:12

328:8 335:11 340:20

344:14 347:12 351:9

354:8 358:2 360:21

369:1 371:2

parallel 66:22 383:20

parameters 207:9

479:16

parasites 151:9 227:5

parasiticide 226:16

372:3,3

parasiticides 149:10,15

Pardon 60:20

parlor 516:17

parse 140:7

parsing 534:2

part 15:21 16:7 25:3,5

37:1 42:9 44:8 55:15

94:15 109:14 114:16

124:9 157:10 160:21

217:19,20 219:16

224:5 226:2 228:1

235:17 238:16 275:6

287:1 288:11 289:4

289:12 306:22 365:13

365:15 394:4 414:14

427:15 429:6 439:22

456:5 466:6 477:12

481:14 504:1,1

509:17

partially 352:4 491:8

PARTICIPANT 247:7

529:19

participate 103:2

210:20 504:20 507:11

participated 38:7

participating 506:5

particles 22:19

particular 65:10 72:10

79:7 112:17 115:13

134:16 139:11,21

140:2 151:1 184:12

201:1 270:9 293:19

295:20 401:7 404:14

425:15 479:15

particularly 19:20

24:19 159:14 162:7

291:1 292:22 296:17

296:19 481:19

parties 472:1

partner 226:17 287:9

287:15

partnerships 287:2,2

287:11 514:11

parts 13:8 90:9 188:19

472:4 497:5,7

party 207:18 234:6

400:10

parvovirus 250:17

pass 116:2 120:12

131:4 255:7 303:3

516:6 521:19 522:13

538:10

passed 42:11 100:21

101:1 129:17 145:20

146:2 197:14 497:6

passes 367:10 397:19

417:5 427:4 532:9

passion 284:6 480:14

525:6

passionate 456:6

461:22

passionately 456:13

pasture 227:1,8 229:21

435:21

pasture-claimed

303:10

Pat 3:2 80:21,21,21,22

93:10,11,14 96:13

Pat's 80:22

patchwork 13:19

path 110:18,20 111:5

287:14

pathogen 402:20 404:6

405:1

pathogen-based 410:7

pathogen-free 402:10

pathogenic 410:22

415:1,5,10

pathogens 104:16

271:8,17 272:12

290:12 308:21 404:12

404:13,15,18 405:22

406:1,18 407:14

414:3 417:16 465:10

patient 161:13

pattern 279:4

PATTILLO 2:4

Paul 2:3 499:21 528:5

pause 281:17

paved 9:12 201:2

pay 70:1 76:19,22

122:11 314:2 337:2

422:14

paying 96:9 98:22

359:10

PBAT 280:13

PC 70:4

peaceably 316:11

peacemaker 507:1

pears 269:22 270:19

271:2

pebbles 200:14

pectin 2:8 126:9,12,13

162:6,10,18 177:5,7,9

177:10,13,14,15,18

178:2,7,8,11,15,20

179:17,18,21 180:6,9

180:11,14,14,16

181:2,4,7,12,12,16,19

182:10,11,13 184:2

185:2,7,15 186:6,13

186:17,20,21,21

187:1,5,9,11,14,15

188:7,22 189:3,5,7

pectins 180:18 181:22

182:17,18 183:1,3,8

183:11,12,20 184:12

187:2,7,8

peek 233:11

peel 177:16 185:17

186:4,6 188:17,18,19

188:20,21

peer 122:13,17

peer-reviewed 161:17

404:12 405:9

pending 202:1

Pennsylvania 225:9,12

227:19 495:6

pens 304:21

people 16:12 18:18

20:19 31:7,11,12,16

34:16,21 63:20 69:8

69:22 70:4,6 71:6,13
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

578

73:19 75:21 79:1 88:2

88:15 90:16 92:17

95:6 126:16 157:15

176:1,14 184:10

187:20 202:3,20

209:1 215:4 218:10

218:15 231:16,16

234:18 241:14 243:1

243:3,15 244:21

258:22 260:10 284:17

286:3 287:3,7,14

297:2 310:15 313:16

316:17 320:2 330:9

330:15 352:3 362:6

385:3 387:14 389:19

389:22 393:2 409:1

428:10 434:21 442:5

457:16 459:19 464:3

464:7 465:12 469:11

474:14,15 475:5,8,15

475:22 477:11 482:8

485:15 486:15 490:9

495:22 502:17 504:19

511:3 513:10 514:12

514:17,21 520:8

521:5 523:20 524:2

527:4 533:16

peppers 12:13 190:13

per-yield 63:8

peracetic 272:8

percent 22:1,2 59:11,12

60:11,14,17 61:5 62:2

64:3 69:15,20 73:17

80:16 86:8,10 104:22

105:7 135:18,21

149:3 172:17 173:11

174:2,5 177:11

205:11,13 214:21

216:6,7 236:19 252:3

270:22 272:6 274:17

275:9,11 276:18

278:5,13,16 279:6,10

303:13 304:17 305:3

305:11,12,20,22

309:15,16 311:2

336:18 337:5 338:10

402:3,18 410:11

421:18 423:22 431:4

431:5 433:16,18

434:6,7,22 435:2,19

435:22 436:5,12

439:6 441:4,6 453:13

460:19 461:1,1,3,6,14

462:15 496:13 537:21

538:1 539:19,22

540:7,9

percentage 86:20 278:2

319:16 461:7

percentages 87:18

perennial 288:11

355:10,21 356:3

501:16

perennials 51:11,13

431:7 433:21 441:11

538:4 540:13

perfect 256:18 290:20

310:2 441:22

perfectly 216:3

perform 161:1 164:2

performed 223:17

performing 149:1

performs 164:11

perimeters 328:13

period 4:1 6:21 22:20

23:14 104:13 142:21

143:2,6 241:9 260:13

318:8 417:19 496:14

periods 104:18

permanent 35:11

permissible 272:10

permitted 159:7 233:3

233:5 301:15

person 24:10 37:3

148:4 261:10 325:3

377:17 410:15 517:19

person's 127:17,18

personal 6:14 9:1 297:1

297:3 388:13,18

391:17 519:22

personalities 232:3

personally 16:14 47:12

70:16 73:2,12 212:5

260:21 289:22 297:17

313:18 332:11 380:2

387:13 389:10 393:17

persons 148:4

perspective 19:15 27:9

34:22 35:1 63:13

65:10 183:1 280:2

438:3 495:7

perspectives 8:16

26:16 65:6

pertaining 6:8 484:11

pertains 51:11 132:3

Peru 471:1

pest 308:11 340:22

342:8 343:9 345:3

452:9

pesticidal 45:17 301:8

pesticide 16:5 124:10

467:10 468:16

pesticide-free 458:19

pesticides 2:16 3:11

10:4 40:9 42:9 45:7

53:17 73:21 124:11

154:8 173:9 205:10

352:1 446:17 457:5

465:19 468:3 482:19

pet 232:3

Petaluma 252:13

Peter 211:13 214:1

petition 95:11 97:1,2

100:15,21 104:15

152:14 154:22 226:14

248:17 260:21 292:3

293:5 296:7 298:8

299:4 300:2,6,16

301:5,7 313:14

316:13 342:4 374:3,9

374:10,12,13,15

380:21 381:2 383:6

385:13 388:15 389:6

390:12 395:21 396:7

399:8,20,22 400:2,4,6

400:13,18 401:2,7

403:2 404:22 405:8

405:12

petition's 97:3,4

petitioned 4:18 41:17

116:20 260:11,13,17

299:6 396:20 398:2

400:3 406:21 412:14

petitioner 291:12 300:9

300:22 301:4 375:10

376:11 377:13 378:3

381:19 395:5 396:8

402:8,18

petitions 95:6 301:7

373:22 408:10

petroleum 278:2,5

pH 164:8 168:22 169:9

169:12,16 172:14

180:19 181:3 183:14

183:17 194:10

Ph.D 2:2,3,5 481:22

phase 171:15

Phil 3:4 56:21,21 67:11

67:12,14 70:12,14

74:17,19,19,19,19

77:2 80:18 316:12

Phillip 87:16

philosophical 11:6

83:11

philosophy 26:15 138:4

phone 252:20 377:8

phones 7:16

phonetic 244:18 513:6

phosphate 159:10

161:1 163:2,9,19

164:3,4,8,11,15,19

165:1 167:2 168:14

169:10,13,16,20

171:22

phosphate's 194:18

phosphates 159:10,12

159:18,19 160:4,9,13

160:15,15,20 161:3,6

161:6,18,20 162:18

165:16,22 166:7

167:22 168:5,10,12

168:16,21 169:4,18

170:11,14,15,18

171:9 172:12,14

193:12,14,17,20

194:14 195:12,14

phosphoric 231:4

phosphorus 159:22

160:13 161:7,8,9

photographs 143:20

486:17

photography 135:7

photos 314:10,10

photosynthesizer

449:1

photosynthesizers

448:20

phrase 425:15

phylogenetically

275:20

physical 389:8

physically 22:18 448:9

phytochemical 499:4

pick 234:11 337:12

515:19

picking 191:14 491:11

picture 203:17 275:6

280:16 503:3

pictures 203:14 449:10

506:19

pie 438:4,7 439:4,5

piece 91:3 216:19

255:12 319:11 485:18

pieces 239:7

Pierce 3:9 221:1 225:4

225:6,7 229:11,14

231:6

pigs 309:10

pineapple 387:1 388:3

388:5 389:3

pinkeye 251:22 252:3,9

253:6

pioneers 476:8

pit 402:1

pitting 83:12 118:3

place 17:17 41:13 93:20

96:1 123:22 129:6

132:17 136:5 137:22

157:3 185:17 202:20

207:9 219:7 235:3

266:21 284:7 314:22

315:8 336:11 339:3

383:12 409:13 447:6
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

579

480:18 482:22 509:20

521:1

placed 23:22 414:1

places 86:13 108:11

286:22 293:1 413:20

414:5 457:19 464:19

plan 89:15 217:8 453:5

465:3,6,12 468:1

469:8

planet 174:15 200:17

464:21 500:1

planning 427:17 466:1

468:8 470:2

plant 11:5 19:3 22:12

24:18 25:4,5,7 110:11

123:7 136:15 166:12

173:13 176:9,13,15

191:1 205:10 223:17

243:12 347:4 351:10

354:8 355:10 356:3

358:3 360:22 382:9

383:11,13 388:6

401:8 405:1 410:11

411:7 414:21 415:4,7

415:9 432:12,12,20

437:1 440:1,10,15

452:14,16 458:5

464:20 467:14 484:1

487:16 498:13,15

501:15,16 531:11,12

532:15,19

plant's 433:16,18 435:1

441:5,7 537:21 538:1

539:20,22 540:7,9

plant-based 411:1

planted 59:13 71:1

271:3 421:15 433:20

434:8 435:4 441:8

503:7 538:3 540:2,11

planting 103:19 431:5,6

plantings 288:16

plants 10:10,17,20 19:7

21:2 23:4 25:2 36:18

36:22 65:21 95:2

135:5 173:17 174:9

174:10 177:14 189:1

189:2,7 206:6,12

207:4 317:9,16,18

364:18 375:15 394:13

394:20 428:12 432:21

433:2,3 434:2,8

441:14 445:7 448:20

450:2,10,20 458:21

478:8,21 485:22

501:12 503:17 532:16

532:19 537:14 538:7

540:16

plants' 206:5

plastic 173:17 289:8

331:22 337:12 537:17

plastics 466:19

platform 505:19

play 76:20 78:19 111:4

130:11 481:6 485:11

playing 76:3 393:21

448:10

plays 181:19

Pleasant 243:10

please 5:19 6:19 7:11

19:21 57:21 83:6

102:17 154:14 155:4

162:22 191:6 196:5

203:7 233:13,22

259:20 262:16,20

273:4 282:7 312:3,4

391:20 419:19,21

442:18 463:7 474:12

pleased 109:22 121:22

145:1 482:15

pleasure 240:15

plenty 140:11 365:18

plug-flow 401:9 402:12

405:3

plums 503:4

plus 19:2 33:17 233:10

303:15 506:14

pockets 188:20

poem 319:7

point 31:8 62:7,12,13

92:9 122:4 145:18

146:3 157:21 160:2,9

213:7 221:19 223:5

226:6 243:9 246:7

266:14 294:21 295:15

297:6,16 299:13,13

299:21 301:22 324:19

345:10 352:9 391:16

392:2 393:11,14

412:2 420:4 460:12

473:17,21 484:17

489:8,9 492:1 495:11

502:20 505:9 509:15

511:18

pointed 22:10 410:18

472:17 482:9

pointing 200:12

points 132:1 221:17

266:2 294:8 425:7

486:9 487:13 507:22

poisonous 154:13

policies 54:19 111:2

136:12 137:5

policy 5:13,13 49:22

57:3 81:4 137:3 158:4

270:3

pollinator 465:11

pollute 68:20

Poly 286:21

polyethylene 280:12

polymer 274:1,3,7

276:2,19 280:7

polymeric 273:17

polymers 273:13,22

279:20

polysaccharide 179:19

pomace 177:18

pome 270:16

ponds 466:22

ponic 117:7,19 456:17

pool 130:15 226:9

439:16

popular 113:9 168:19

522:17

population 161:11,21

284:17

populations 140:18

161:13

porous 437:17 450:3

portion 120:22 197:3

320:14 438:9 439:8

491:21

portray 134:15

portrays 425:11

ports 211:11 218:12

268:12

pose 271:8

posed 94:16 263:5

poses 108:15

position 19:14 81:6,7

81:10,13 84:8 100:17

107:1 118:8,15

152:20 153:1,5

246:15 258:20 259:8

283:11 285:11 463:16

474:9 482:5 494:16

512:13 514:8 515:8

532:13

positions 518:21

positive 63:10 144:8

235:19 296:3 482:20

489:5 499:7

possibility 37:14 157:6

157:9 337:4 381:8

395:4 519:18 524:2

526:15

possible 6:22 7:3,11

10:19 20:15 34:19

44:8 74:4 93:21

106:16 124:13 190:5

266:7 280:6 281:3

293:6 425:19 444:14

480:8 489:12,15

524:14

possibly 258:17,19

308:2 336:22 337:20

338:15

post 55:20 211:7,14

246:21 318:12

post-emergence

223:14

posted 314:8 374:14

pot 59:12 61:16 439:17

potassium 102:4

196:18 197:22 198:10

198:13 222:2,10

256:12

potential 75:5 98:17

139:17 186:11 236:2

257:21 266:21 272:4

311:14 329:19 352:4

406:16 408:9 486:6

507:14 524:8

potentially 114:22

329:16 365:1 392:5

pots 288:18,19 289:11

537:16

poultry 3:9 150:7,19

151:17,18,19 152:4

225:8,18 226:20

228:14 230:8,13

pound 496:21,22

497:12,16

pounds 173:21 174:1

276:9 305:18,19,21

306:2,4 310:20

435:14,15 436:4,5

437:7 439:15 497:1

497:11,15

pour 437:19

poured 459:16

powder 168:17 341:8

342:2

powdered 166:20

194:22 342:14

powders 159:15 163:18

power 75:20 202:15

258:20 504:21

PowerPoint 427:12

practical 37:19 116:6,7

143:8 389:18

practice 54:2 58:11

66:19 226:20 233:3,4

288:17 328:20 417:11

447:10 492:5,7

practices 18:21 33:9

58:13,14 66:20 82:13

108:19 113:3,19

117:11 131:14,18

146:12 150:7 226:18

228:2 238:11,18

267:11,11 333:15

348:13 406:5,20
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

580

430:14 445:15 451:22

467:13 473:14,18

482:17 524:8

practitioners 372:2

pre-harvest 223:19

321:15 403:10 406:14

406:22

preamble 91:8 123:17

125:13

precautionary 500:13

precedent 413:22

517:22

preceding 290:4

precludes 523:3

predators 449:1,5

501:11

predatory 449:5

prefer 133:3 165:1

283:21 530:12

preference 163:6 463:4

463:6 477:11,13

preferences 160:22

163:4

prejudiced 383:10

premise 361:11

premium 96:9 214:10

premiums 57:16

prepare 460:1

prepared 294:5 295:9

preparing 151:22

preps 183:21

prescribed 190:1

prescribing 50:19

52:17

prescriptive 81:16

presence 59:3 166:17

271:7 411:7 422:20

present 1:11 2:1,7 3:1

40:11 167:11 177:14

180:13 181:21 442:2

497:14

presentation 6:2

179:13 303:4 521:12

presented 185:12

212:20 235:6 279:9

336:16 484:16

presenters 288:9

presenting 116:12

494:14

presents 117:7 164:4

preservation 205:8

preserved 38:15

preserves 180:3

President 225:7 254:3

presiding 1:10

press 316:10 414:6

pressing 185:19

pressure 132:14 247:21

pretty 16:21 72:8 80:11

80:13 143:8 145:21

180:22 213:9 229:8

232:5 288:22 309:1

333:6,6 358:16 439:7

439:16 470:14 478:2

478:22 480:13,19

481:7 482:1 505:17

512:2 519:6 521:6

523:21

prevalent 151:9

prevent 144:14 166:11

537:14

preventing 41:21

118:22 143:10

prevention 108:16

150:3

prevents 345:15

previous 32:17 54:20

108:8,18 159:17

185:6 191:2 225:17

290:10 345:10 358:17

371:7 450:14 488:8

previously 64:20

161:15 251:21 365:2

375:2 443:16

price 96:9 213:18

214:13 216:17

priced 216:17

prices 216:5

primarily 8:5 12:17 13:2

16:4,10 28:20 77:5

97:14 286:18 484:3

primary 162:2 404:4

principal 404:10 500:14

principle 18:20 123:13

134:11 447:9

principles 50:17 110:8

118:13 285:18 382:15

383:20 458:3 480:1

481:2 488:16 508:10

508:10

print 173:13

prior 117:6 156:8 443:9

446:1 449:17

priorities 491:10

priority 64:12,15 105:5

151:4,16

privately 239:15

privilege 391:17

privileged 284:2

Prize 497:22

pro 429:13

pro-hydroponic 443:14

512:21

pro-soil 506:17 511:2

probable 524:15

probably 7:8 23:11

29:19 31:21 32:18

53:6 67:19 72:3 74:13

78:16 87:20 88:10

144:10 145:21 231:2

232:5 239:14 262:5

269:5 299:17 307:14

379:16 384:9 387:2

399:10 408:3,5

434:14 464:3 491:10

504:11 520:10 522:10

522:17

problem 13:20 30:14

108:21 122:18 188:15

215:4 219:19 230:21

306:20 307:10 309:12

310:19 311:4 314:1

318:9,16 435:22

436:21 440:6 458:11

494:2,9 509:17

521:17

problematic 355:21

problems 35:14 45:20

122:5 123:1 333:4

369:13 486:1

procedural 383:2

procedures 5:14 54:19

119:5 122:2 207:8,19

proceed 228:9 282:4

399:19 404:1 529:17

530:1 534:13,17

535:19 537:6 539:10

proceeding 48:8

199:12 542:3

process 25:18,22 33:18

37:18 38:14 42:12

45:15,16,21 46:2 47:7

48:18 54:1,11 55:1,7

55:12,16 82:19 93:19

103:2 109:6 122:12

122:17 191:7 206:12

206:22 215:15 222:16

226:3 258:5,13,15,18

259:11 260:8,9 261:3

261:4,8 262:19 263:6

263:9 264:8,11,14

273:12,15 289:4

310:12 328:20 352:2

380:14 385:2,4

402:21 403:7 404:14

404:17 405:4,21

406:1 409:21,22

413:8,12 417:13

428:14 429:6 440:16

processed 125:3

129:12 163:7,15

193:18 194:1,11,16

194:22,22 195:8,15

195:18 402:14 405:2

412:20 413:2 417:15

450:6 520:15

processes 207:6,19

228:19 280:21 403:9

410:20

processing 166:12,13

166:15,16 167:4,7

178:4 341:14 354:22

402:2 410:15

processor 68:12 77:6

186:3 187:8

processors 166:10

521:2

produce 2:14 10:3

28:18 46:10 64:5

95:19 96:7 98:1

116:14 117:13 118:4

119:12 177:9 179:4

182:10 184:2 186:6

195:2,7 205:17 206:2

209:7,11,19 212:13

228:4 237:13 305:22

309:14 316:2 403:14

445:12 457:15 491:21

492:2,4 496:18

498:19

produced 32:22 34:12

36:20 64:4 96:4 110:7

122:6 155:22 179:3

188:19,22 194:16

198:10 214:15 254:9

254:14 284:10 328:19

328:20 335:15 339:9

339:10 401:4,18

402:4 405:3 416:2

450:18 472:15 520:18

520:20

producer 30:5 50:3

77:18 84:22 100:2

116:13 182:9 302:17

414:20 451:5,13,19

producers 2:8 17:11

41:15 43:5 59:17 81:5

81:19 95:1 98:10,11

98:14,17 103:21

108:13,13 110:12

112:6,7 131:22 132:3

132:5,14 138:20

140:4 148:18 177:5

182:15 189:3,5

195:17 214:10,11,22

215:16 216:8,11

253:13 292:13,21

293:16 294:7 303:7

303:11 337:10 355:22

406:4 424:15 444:5,6

446:4 453:16 505:14

produces 178:6 402:13
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

581

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producing 66:4 178:20

185:15 195:6 209:20

413:16 447:17

product 37:19 56:11

61:15 161:2 164:19

166:18 167:8,9,11,12

167:13 170:1 171:13

171:14,21 172:7

175:3 180:8,21 182:9

183:6,15,19 184:2,4

184:18 186:9 194:7

194:16 195:5,19

197:7,10 206:10

207:20 224:9 235:11

248:22 249:14 278:3

278:16,19 296:1,4,12

296:16 310:2 318:21

329:20 331:13 336:8

336:13,16 337:5,7

338:8,9 339:1 347:6

362:5 371:9,14 372:8

381:20 409:4,20

411:4 414:1 474:4,6

492:7 508:16 520:17

521:2

productions 286:14

366:7

productive 508:11

products 2:9,19 4:13

69:8 100:5,19 101:8

101:18,19 102:5,7,15

105:1,2,7 106:8

120:14 122:7 124:10

126:11 128:17 133:18

134:3 159:7,14 162:7

162:9,15 163:9,10,15

164:5 165:4,7,18

166:22,22 167:1

168:20 169:2 170:4,8

171:7 172:3 180:3,17

181:6,9,10,13 182:13

182:16,19,20,22

183:9,18,21 184:3,12

184:20 190:22 191:4

193:15,17 194:1,2,4

195:3,8,21 196:12

202:18 221:6,13

222:19 271:4 272:19

285:9 321:20 323:19

337:20 354:5,14

356:15 362:16 363:16

401:9 410:20 417:15

444:10 457:1 491:15

491:17

professional 248:16

312:20

proficient 287:6

profile 226:6 311:4

profit 39:10

profits 461:20

profound 37:12

program 2:2,3,4,5,6

15:11 36:10 40:20,22

41:12 46:5,6,9 100:10

129:1 138:19 150:14

153:12,13 158:1,4,9

189:18 225:20 226:2

227:20,22 232:21

233:6 242:2,4,6

257:21 258:3 263:5

264:10,15 265:1,2

270:8 278:12 374:11

400:3 411:22 412:5

506:6

program's 396:2

programs 262:19 320:4

progress 52:18 114:1

131:16

progressing 138:5

prohibit 19:22 58:8

66:15 103:7 105:15

107:10 317:4 432:16

433:9 488:11 492:5

529:3 530:21 531:7

533:1,6,17 534:2,22

535:5 536:1,4,6

prohibited 33:9 66:19

104:13 107:5 190:3

368:15,21 369:6,8,18

369:22 370:1 371:10

371:16 372:5,11,18

372:22 407:18 414:22

450:17

prohibiting 60:10 61:3

106:18 316:8

prohibition 42:3 58:5

prohibitive 336:20

project 210:21 308:9

projects 112:10,13

proliferation 447:12

prominent 15:17

promise 273:11 316:2

promote 140:14 364:17

457:22 509:19

promotes 194:8

promotion 147:17

promptly 282:8

prone 9:21 114:21

486:1

propagate 446:5

proper 222:17,18

267:22 447:12 484:4

properly 35:16 405:2

447:15,16

properties 164:4

170:22 178:2 180:1

185:3 187:5,10 194:4

194:18 195:14

proponent 246:3

proponents 117:18

443:14

proposals 19:22 25:20

108:3 109:16 162:17

189:20 196:14 255:1

432:9 530:13

propose 61:19 81:14

116:2 541:18

proposed 80:2 82:22

94:10 101:4 104:2

125:15,16 130:20

143:7 151:4 192:8

198:19 257:8 259:10

261:4 264:15 283:9

336:22 355:12 472:21

472:22 522:15 524:5

proposes 375:10

402:18

proposing 84:21

119:15 148:7

proprietary 39:10 175:9

protect 38:18 41:14

68:12 72:18 233:17

364:18 514:17 521:4

protecting 54:10 108:9

465:9 493:1,2 514:7

514:19

protection 179:22

181:5,17 219:17

458:20 466:11,15

513:11,21

protective 56:15

protein 148:13 167:1

168:18 169:2 171:14

179:21 181:5,17,18

258:9 260:22 262:2

proteins 194:5,8,20

206:14

protocols 205:22

252:22

protozoa 431:19 438:10

447:14

proud 68:10 208:2

209:6 214:22

prove 249:4 250:8

311:11 413:14 415:10

435:19

proven 251:4

provide 5:16 9:20 23:15

26:4,10 44:9 49:4,5

94:20 115:8,18

116:17 117:17 118:13

119:11 123:6 133:19

140:9 145:16 152:8

166:17 168:21 169:18

170:19,22 177:6

179:21 180:17 186:8

211:9 214:9 234:8

239:5,17 268:10

285:16 363:9 376:21

430:2 452:9 473:9,17

510:4

provided 20:16 42:17

196:1 198:21 347:7

363:11 421:11 461:13

providers 196:10

provides 38:2 118:1

128:3 164:17 179:17

181:13,16 225:10

362:1 481:10

providing 94:2 117:16

118:20 171:19 284:19

318:14 435:19 453:20

456:20 465:13 503:10

provision 232:14

provisions 33:1 34:12

34:17 156:1 472:15

484:2

proxies 6:12

pruning 272:2 288:12

394:2

prunings 288:14

pseudomonas 250:15

psychologists 134:5

public 4:1,21 5:4,7,10

5:12 7:1,2,14 38:14

44:7,9 48:2,2,4,5,12

48:14 54:8 55:1 56:12

137:8 225:19 242:18

260:4 268:18 281:19

283:14 292:5 294:18

294:19,20 295:7

315:15 320:13 336:12

336:17 340:12,15

341:11 342:6 347:21

354:19 363:10 364:20

371:6,8 376:14

377:14 379:18 380:1

388:14 400:14 403:19

410:10 412:8,11

419:18,21 420:20

430:2 442:3 443:11

446:11 448:3 454:10

455:16,18,19 470:16

487:9 503:2 511:1

523:6 525:4,12 526:7

526:13

publication 306:16

publications 113:10

publish 113:18

published 159:18

161:21 496:9,11
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

582

498:18

Puertas 2:8 36:3,9

Puerto 485:8

pull 5:7 308:3 530:8,14

530:15

pulled 299:1 431:14

pullet 225:11

pulling 64:22

pulls 5:9

pulse 56:1,1

pun 233:16,20

purchase 491:17

504:20 505:4

purchased 458:6

purchasing 96:4,6

491:15

pure 280:4

purely 388:8 487:21

purgatives 160:5

purity 108:9 257:10

422:15,22

purpose 127:20 128:1

128:12 129:2 289:1

473:13

purposes 272:16

539:17

pursue 89:21 104:20

208:7

purview 408:6 412:2,13

push 95:11 399:15,16

pushed 295:10,11

put 14:13 15:10,16

17:12,17 30:2 41:8

69:5 70:6 89:6 93:20

96:20 135:12 157:2,5

186:3 195:10 196:9

208:17 210:1 246:21

248:2 254:7 259:8,11

264:16 276:8 277:8

278:9 280:22 281:17

287:8 291:4 313:7

318:20 323:16 330:11

337:12 338:16 387:10

392:18 408:19 414:9

428:18 429:7 436:15

436:18,20 437:7

439:20 442:22 454:17

465:3,10 470:10

476:10 482:5 487:3,9

489:11 496:19 506:20

509:16 512:8,12,14

517:14 518:21 532:13

putting 22:11 55:21

111:13 260:5 290:5

331:13 384:3 440:14

puzzles 297:11,14

pyramid 127:8

Q

Q&A 240:19

QAI 3:12 196:6,10,19

QCS 240:16

qualified 74:8

qualifier 94:19

quality 3:7 51:4 178:10

206:1 207:13 221:4

227:19 234:12 240:10

295:22 296:2,4

392:22 422:1 433:3

439:21 465:9 466:11

532:20

quandary 279:11

quantities 345:4 409:8

quantity 162:11 178:10

422:2

quarter 512:6

quarter-million 512:6

question 6:22 8:12 12:7

13:6 15:22 18:3 21:20

29:15 32:14,19 33:18

35:5 43:12,21 45:4

50:13 62:1 64:19 73:6

74:18 79:11 84:8,10

88:2 89:8 91:17 96:19

97:3,6 111:11 114:3

124:18 128:19 146:9

165:2,15,20 166:6

167:4 172:10 175:4

187:21 197:5 208:22

216:8,21 234:17

236:13 237:11 238:16

239:8,21 244:4,8

246:11 252:12 257:15

260:2 261:6 262:13

263:5 265:7 269:5

273:22 274:19 275:14

276:6 280:6 288:3

289:15 300:21 305:13

309:3 310:11 312:15

313:11 333:11 365:6

386:15 390:2 407:17

454:11 455:17 524:21

525:1,3 529:6,10,11

529:16 530:6,6 533:8

533:12

questioning 203:16

questions 6:1,10,20

7:10,11 11:14 17:7,8

39:20 49:12 64:7 77:3

86:19 96:16 119:19

124:15 128:22 129:4

139:22 140:1,5

149:16 152:2 153:21

153:22 156:21 171:2

174:16 192:20 203:19

213:4 229:5 252:10

253:20 254:21 257:13

257:14 267:1 269:15

273:1 281:18 285:22

287:18,22 293:21

294:13 315:11 319:5

323:18 336:4,6 338:2

338:13,22 342:12

343:4 345:17 348:17

356:7 362:14 363:18

363:20 364:16 369:9

372:14 400:21 422:18

441:18 455:13 464:4

quick 5:10,11 110:14

111:11 114:3 165:15

252:11 305:16 363:22

377:3 413:6 517:7

533:15

quickly 124:13 199:8

254:18 438:13,21

451:4 517:13

quiet 419:17

Quinn 243:14 244:20

quite 81:5 84:18 112:3

136:3 180:19 206:12

238:3 248:19 278:17

287:6 300:8 306:18

306:19 307:19 308:5

310:15 392:21 393:4

435:17 439:9 471:6

471:12 476:18 478:3

515:1

quo 517:5

quorum 419:11

quote 151:6 155:20

157:22 158:3 361:20

404:10 429:13

quoted 428:11

R

radar 220:7 388:17

radical 83:13

RAFI 243:10

rain 38:2 88:16

rainforest 56:15

rainwater 202:15

raise 203:9 304:4

387:18,18 474:21

raised 200:13 201:18

202:17 237:13 351:22

387:13 474:20 525:12

525:19

raising 86:3 94:4

rampant 216:4

ran 21:12 69:10 73:18

ranchers 3:14 94:2

302:16

range 81:11 88:7 90:19

169:12 182:9,13

184:19 195:20 210:16

253:5 277:12 290:20

344:22 405:14 406:5

407:12 438:11,19

460:14 517:12

ranges 497:14

Rankin 3:10 153:20

158:22 159:1,1,3

163:8,21 165:9,19

166:1,15 167:10

rapidly 94:22 98:6

394:10

rare 229:8 232:18

rarely 63:9 243:22

raspberries 288:13

rate 136:2 150:22

224:22 304:17 305:11

305:20 311:3

rates 150:20

ratio 11:2 276:22

277:14

raw 104:18 174:2

177:16,19,19 178:3,9

178:22 179:2,6 186:7

401:11 402:6,9

405:10 406:14 409:12

417:13

re- 101:15

re-list 159:9 162:5,17

re-listed 101:4 257:1

258:3

re-listing 116:22 162:13

162:19

re-looking 112:1

re-petitioned 395:22

re-reviewed 364:3

re-use 238:18

re-used 238:11

re-wrote 211:6

reach 140:3 259:2,6

284:17 497:10 524:13

528:15

reached 14:11 261:8

reaching 258:16 259:4

421:17

reaction 251:3 499:5

read 27:12 47:5 48:4

70:6 71:15 77:9 79:12

157:1,7 189:21 202:9

235:16 238:2 321:5

324:8,11 341:22

399:7 423:21 442:18

471:14 476:20 483:13

484:15 485:10 530:16

532:12 535:21,22

537:10

reader 49:1

readily 306:19
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

583

reading 48:5,17 319:15

329:22 476:2 486:22

508:22

reads 48:2 417:14

530:10 537:19

ready 285:9 296:18

334:4 339:6 343:5

352:21 364:7 366:3

369:16 372:15 380:7

385:6 386:12 396:12

425:22 478:16 530:7

537:2

real 84:10 92:10 94:17

95:7 96:4 99:3 115:6

320:5 330:2 386:13

517:13 534:18

realistic 421:19

realities 499:16

reality 116:6 508:8

realize 71:5 318:4

463:13 501:5

realized 515:20

realizing 289:10

realtor 80:8

realtors 80:9

rearrangement 41:3

reason 55:18 116:2

190:4 215:5 266:9

330:2 352:8 361:9

380:19 382:1 392:18

402:22 423:3 434:9

436:18 437:13

reasonable 57:22

113:21 131:16 211:9

383:4 528:21

reasonably 383:5

reasoning 386:18

reasons 24:4,7,7

168:10 255:14 283:11

289:12 329:15 412:10

422:9 444:8 458:8

482:7 483:3 491:15

493:13 511:6

recalcitrant 438:15

recall 469:22

recapitulate 221:17

receive 155:7 249:11

received 43:22 166:9

224:20 259:7,21

298:8 306:9 400:2

422:11 448:5 492:1

receiving 96:10

receptivity 150:18

recess 541:22 542:5

recirculated 433:5

532:21

recirculates 202:16

recirculating 2:15

173:11 200:6 432:19

532:14

reclaimed 401:12

reclassification 196:18

recognition 37:12

331:4 521:10

recognizable 180:7

recognize 9:18,22

26:17 54:22 63:8 82:5

89:19 102:16 117:5

192:12 232:9 479:11

506:3

recognized 140:15

recognizes 92:16

recollection 300:22

recommend 112:20

178:14 236:7 324:4

433:14

recommendation 38:14

58:8 59:18 61:2 65:20

91:6,8,9,21 106:2

109:14 123:10 124:8

148:12 198:8 201:22

217:19 234:22 241:8

283:10 365:15 428:10

429:21,22 430:18

434:4 445:6,12 447:5

449:19 454:2 459:3

472:12 489:10 517:8

534:9 535:13

recommendations 38:9

38:11 55:14 58:17

60:9 91:15 118:19

122:1,3 150:13,18

196:22 212:18 257:20

429:14 430:9,10

445:14 517:11

recommended 42:12

45:21 337:16 341:15

341:21 355:12

recommending 93:17

361:7

recommends 61:3

268:8

reconcile 13:17

reconsider 82:21

378:20

reconsideration 396:7

record 6:6 8:1 18:9 36:1

40:6 49:19 81:2 93:12

99:9 177:2 248:12

260:6 273:5 282:11

282:19 283:8 301:3

321:6 353:2 419:7

463:19 529:14 542:7

recordkeeping 421:8

records 143:21 264:19

recovered 36:20

recreate 500:19

rectify 33:12

recuse 350:1

recyclability 454:3

recycle 239:1 288:20

289:1,2 453:16

recycled 238:12 279:22

287:20 452:19

recycling 51:7 238:19

452:6,16 467:14

478:19 527:19

red 5:18 230:7,15,16

275:9 314:11

redesign 502:1,6

redirecting 108:16

redlined 445:10 449:18

redress 316:13

reduce 195:16 202:19

252:7 272:4 319:11

319:13 406:1 417:15

reduced 488:1

reduces 490:7

reducing 271:7,17

405:21 446:17

reduction 227:20

249:10,12 252:4

403:7 405:1 511:13

reductionism 518:8

refer 385:12,15 423:9

426:2

reference 156:13 160:3

193:1 362:1 435:5

473:17

references 145:1 190:9

483:11,16,18 484:7,9

referencing 145:17

referred 10:16 242:22

483:8,19

referring 422:21

refine 83:4 93:1

refined 206:22

refinement 428:16

refinements 41:2

refining 40:21 109:6

206:19

reflect 213:21 446:3

510:15

reflected 519:6

reflection 442:20 443:1

reflective 413:9 455:4

reflects 489:17 507:4

519:3

reformulated 364:2

reformulation 365:19

refrain 6:13,17

refrigerate 202:18

regard 128:12 145:4

151:7 444:19

regarding 20:7 43:12

155:12 159:17 161:18

197:21 205:16 317:1

341:12 342:4 403:2

420:4 443:6

regardless 9:10 17:17

60:12 383:6

regards 16:3,6 65:1

96:20 111:11 158:5

165:16 236:14 312:13

407:8,19 408:11

445:8 450:5

regenerate 105:15

regeneration 144:22

regenerative 56:13

143:10

region 138:21 210:22

212:11 272:7 369:12

392:20 393:5 462:7

regional 78:18

regionally 422:3

regions 106:18 230:5

445:21

Register 264:18 265:3

registered 363:16

regroup 525:15

regulate 80:4 156:2

504:3

regulated 124:3 316:8

445:19 515:13

regulation 30:22 58:18

111:13 115:7 192:8

197:1 245:17 355:18

394:12 409:19 410:4

410:8 411:21 445:8

464:11,14,17 469:7

470:7 471:2,13 481:2

486:12 494:19 514:17

520:13

regulations 40:19

89:11 91:12 103:11

104:3,9 122:16 136:5

151:6 156:9 192:10

192:15 371:17 400:5

405:5,16 411:22

449:16 457:19 458:14

471:19 483:13 484:7

484:10 485:2 494:11

regulations.gov 378:2

regulator 375:17,21

382:10 386:19 394:9

394:10,19

regulators 386:20

regulatory 93:19 110:5

116:2 119:16 130:13

130:20 133:16 134:1

143:7 159:12 170:17

192:12 254:4 255:5,6
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

584

255:17 268:16 270:2

reincorporate 289:13

reinoculation 452:9

Reiter 3:11 283:3,8,20

reiterate 159:16 161:4

297:10

reiterates 412:1

reiterating 294:21

411:13 413:11

reject 416:9 533:7

536:5,6 538:12

540:20

rejected 383:6

rejecting 531:8

rejection 524:16

relate 59:9

related 19:3 134:8

143:17 151:15 154:1

160:4 238:17 266:19

267:1,12 269:6

275:20 288:4 351:18

388:4 441:1 488:14

relates 62:22 402:5

relation 389:3

relations 211:4

relationship 210:10

477:4

relationships 10:9

140:17 287:3 447:18

relative 144:18 190:17

230:7 276:15 323:13

513:12

relatively 128:13 181:1

186:21 344:20 453:9

release 22:10,13,16

23:13,15 438:20

439:1 497:11,18

501:9,10

released 22:19 311:16

497:16

releasing 497:1

relegating 216:10

relevant 6:7 160:7

277:4 303:3 485:1

488:7,19

reliance 272:10 446:18

458:6,8

relies 202:15 513:21

relisting 336:1 341:13

341:16 342:7 345:11

354:20 358:18

rely 13:1 15:8 17:21

33:16 43:6 53:1 92:2

103:8 113:8 123:20

314:19 470:10 514:5

remain 42:7 104:17

149:7 150:8 318:7

371:10 391:9 404:7

404:16,19

remaining 174:5 329:1

remains 40:22 50:13

108:6

remark 280:20

remarks 6:14

remediation 369:13

remedies 230:18

remember 55:5 110:3

155:1 156:6,17 235:7

243:1 244:22 261:20

299:12,13 338:3

342:18 387:22 475:3

remembered 342:14

remind 7:16

reminded 320:21

reminder 5:10 323:22

365:12

reminding 184:22

remiss 7:15

remote 6:2

removal 257:7 324:4

328:22 333:16 361:7

364:21 382:12 394:2

466:19

remove 148:12 259:9

289:14 324:2,3,10,12

324:17 325:8 326:7

326:10 327:5,8 334:7

334:11 336:15 337:21

337:22 338:5 339:8

339:15 342:9,10

343:7,13,14 345:20

345:22 346:1 349:3,5

349:6 350:7,9,10

353:5,6,8 356:10,14

356:17,18 359:4,8,18

359:18 362:11,13

363:19 365:15 366:5

366:13,14 367:14,16

367:17 369:19,22

372:10,18,21 375:14

393:12 491:20

removed 124:13 135:22

167:8 182:21 263:7

365:16 467:19

removing 194:5 258:14

355:19 380:22 393:10

renal 161:10

renew 102:17 193:14

337:17

renewal 101:1,15

reorganization 365:13

rep 78:5

repeat 297:19 506:14

repeated 150:11

repeatedly 516:12

repetition 395:5

replace 186:18

replacement 144:16

195:11,13

replenishment 452:8

replica 502:1

report 25:13,14 45:11

160:3 161:5,18 162:1

192:22 211:7,8

218:11 273:7 293:22

322:4 328:15 341:4

344:17 347:15 351:13

354:15 358:11 361:2

374:21 400:11,11,14

429:20,20 431:9

441:19 442:6 443:16

443:17

reported 135:16 405:12

429:8

reporter 318:12

reports 25:16,16 46:10

335:18

represent 9:18 54:16

177:4,10 226:9

272:14 291:11 303:13

460:11 463:7 470:16

representation 431:15

449:12

representative 99:13

384:13

represented 233:19

389:6

representing 8:6 18:11

78:8 79:18 159:5

231:11 351:19 463:14

represents 135:18

193:7 269:21

reptiles 37:10 345:8

request 6:18 49:11

131:4 142:2 213:14

256:8 267:10 291:18

291:21 294:3 302:10

323:16 345:13 374:20

376:20 378:17 400:6

requested 264:16

291:22 292:12 296:8

381:19 400:9,10

421:1 422:1

requesting 390:13

403:19

requests 43:18 155:7

301:3 374:16 379:11

381:5 383:16 400:4

401:2 403:8

require 12:20 103:11

128:16 142:21 168:20

191:5 255:8 260:11

284:21 317:3,5

390:21 530:18

required 66:20 102:1

122:16 156:10 160:15

166:13 168:11 169:16

169:21 170:19 211:10

332:16 406:13,14

409:8 422:1,12,14

431:4 466:2 473:16

498:8 517:11

requirement 12:3 51:11

83:21 89:22 100:18

110:6 113:13,18,20

114:7 130:14 131:15

151:6 156:4 355:16

355:19 421:21 433:17

433:19 434:22 435:1

435:3,18 436:10,11

441:5,7 492:12

539:20,22 540:7,9

requirements 14:5,8,19

59:10 61:18 81:16

90:13 104:5 156:11

156:15 181:11 271:10

292:18 295:22 323:13

434:3 435:8 441:15

450:12 451:2,21

453:2,8 473:7 487:9

521:12 537:22 538:2

538:8 540:17

requires 42:13 48:19,20

100:18 119:7 207:17

405:18

requiring 29:21 267:6

292:18 484:22

reread 25:12 377:8

research 63:2,6 64:12

80:13 105:5,6,9

106:13 107:8,13,22

130:4 151:4,15 162:2

221:5 234:6,8 235:4,5

235:9 236:10 249:3

254:14 273:8 303:19

336:3,5,9 337:19

377:20,20 389:11

435:7

researchers 138:16

reservations 329:14

reserving 244:4

reservoir 37:7

residual 216:11 321:15

321:18

residue 250:11 253:8,9

348:4 406:7 438:12

residues 104:17 415:1

467:14

resign 467:6

resiliency 486:4

resilient 25:6,8 36:14

486:8 503:21
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

585

resistance 104:16

110:16 151:9 272:11

resistant 438:15,19

resolve 68:9

resonate 510:16

resonates 506:13

resource 10:1 23:3

113:19 131:13,15

137:19 144:22 202:22

203:6 254:15

resources 57:18 90:12

103:12 135:16 143:22

186:4 284:21 285:8

317:22 445:16 453:4

458:16 509:18

respect 5:20 7:17 9:11

58:21 68:6 83:15

145:6 150:19 274:12

289:5 382:17 384:2

385:4 444:17,18

502:14

respectful 442:6

respectfully 139:1

241:12

respecting 316:7

respectively 375:8

respond 153:21 503:21

535:10

responded 125:17

responding 108:14

245:10

response 143:2 388:12

responsibility 38:18

132:9,17

responsible 202:22

208:6 361:13 445:15

responsibly 94:5

rest 176:14 274:19,20

275:12 436:8 517:18

533:18

restoring 43:6

restricted 22:16 381:5

381:6 402:11

restricting 125:21

restriction 123:22

restrictions 136:10

191:8 401:6

resubmitted 300:16

result 108:19 164:3,9

164:21 222:18 230:14

232:7 292:9

results 17:6,9 161:2

256:22 361:21 405:9

resumed 282:11 419:7

retail 95:19 173:4 197:7

197:10

retailer 491:12

retailers 512:17,20

retain 162:17 324:4,17

326:10 327:8 334:11

339:15 342:9 343:15

346:1 350:11 353:9

356:18 359:19 366:14

367:17 370:1 372:22

456:12

retained 58:9 371:19

473:4

retaining 177:12 178:15

retention 361:7

return 39:14 58:18

419:10

reuse 452:6 453:16

478:18

reused 452:19

review 4:8 43:14 55:16

105:18 122:13,17,19

122:21 144:2 147:9

147:13 153:16 180:14

192:16 193:11 221:8

250:4 256:5 258:9

278:10 298:9,14

300:1 301:6 320:20

321:8 323:9,12 329:4

335:18 336:4 338:20

345:11 364:3 374:19

375:12,18 379:7

380:6 392:14 400:8

400:22 404:5 407:10

411:20 415:16,18

428:9 488:5

reviewed 162:1 211:10

380:4,4

reviewers 480:9

reviewing 45:15 258:21

reviews 44:19 161:22

revise 320:11

revised 256:9 472:21

472:22

revision 197:15

revisions 197:16

revisit 234:2 338:17

432:17

revisiting 338:15

revitalizing 286:6

revolution 500:1

reward 15:7 477:7

rewrite 40:14

Rex 56:18,19,20 67:10

67:10,11

RICE 1:17 141:17,19

165:2,13 325:21

326:19 327:16 331:1

333:14 334:18 339:21

343:21 346:6 349:10

350:13 353:10 357:11

360:10 363:22 367:5

368:7 370:12 373:10

383:15 386:3 392:1

392:10 397:9 398:14

416:15 418:5 426:13

476:17 481:9 531:16

534:10 536:8 539:6

541:12

Richard 156:14 471:21

Rico 485:8

rid 23:1

ride 458:1

ridiculous 319:18

rightfully 300:14

447:19 487:18

Rights 316:3,6 319:8

ringworm 250:16

Ripe 2:22 50:2

risen 287:5

risk 38:6 122:21 207:9

218:1 227:2,20

403:14 422:13

river 248:7

roaches 341:10,17

road 50:15 247:22

500:21

roadmap 59:18

roads 469:5,5

roadsides 469:3

roadways 328:12 330:8

333:5 467:2

Robert 3:10 153:20

158:21 159:1,2

Robert's 385:9 426:4

Robertson 3:11 273:4

282:2,16,20 283:1,2

286:17 288:8 290:8

291:7

robin 427:21 455:15

robust 82:18 103:2

114:14 126:17 140:6

380:6 442:13 466:8

Rock 514:3

rockweed 134:19

137:11

rocky 332:14

Rodale 243:4,4 509:1

rodent 330:19 332:17

role 54:4 103:3 111:4

154:18 181:20 481:7

485:12

roll 414:17

Ron 3:8 167:17 172:20

172:22 174:17

roof 35:13

room 7:18 47:12 52:3

69:7 73:14 82:7 83:8

91:9 115:11 127:22

131:7 233:19 265:4

494:1 495:1 504:16

root 191:10 361:13,18

361:22 437:5 499:3

537:14

rooted 117:21

rooting 437:18

roots 88:8,9 173:19,22

174:10 432:13 440:7

440:9,10 474:5

498:18,20 531:12

537:15 539:12

rotate 12:17

rotated 30:12

rotating 11:18,19

rotation 12:1,3,9,15

29:21 30:6 51:10

174:19,21 175:1

238:13 239:11 304:22

406:7 451:20 452:1

465:7 478:18 484:5

501:17

rotational 401:21

rotations 30:11

roughly 69:11 275:11

277:11

round 64:13 75:13

427:21 455:15

rounds 38:7

route 263:3

routinely 184:14

row 288:1 503:3,5

rows 288:2

rubber 38:9 50:15

rug 314:4

rule 27:21 80:2 87:9

94:10 101:4,11

123:18 124:2 125:13

125:15,16 126:2

130:9 140:16 142:20

145:21 146:3 150:7

150:15 156:15 226:20

228:10,18 229:2

257:8 264:15 292:20

293:3,7,7 414:8,20

415:11 455:12 458:18

464:9 466:6 472:22

473:1 511:19

rulemaking 228:19,21

257:17,22 259:10

260:10 261:4 317:3

430:5 488:10

rules 74:3 385:9 426:5

456:14 517:21

run 16:17 45:19 215:16

245:16 248:9 254:18

263:14

running 218:17 220:5

226:11 418:22 499:8
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

586

534:12,16

runoffs 329:8

runs 202:14

rural 249:20 253:2

286:6

S

S-H-I-T 509:16

sacrifice 99:22

saddens 477:1

safe 94:3 159:11 168:7

170:16 205:17 207:12

208:1 209:20 228:4

249:15 253:9 272:20

321:19 412:4,4,17

413:10 458:19 508:7

safer 46:4,5,6,8 469:16

safety 2:18 56:3 102:22

147:18 159:11 162:1

205:20,22 206:1

207:5,9,11,13,16

249:5 271:13 323:13

403:13 406:18 408:9

408:16,20 409:3

411:3,16 413:14

446:20 456:17 465:10

466:1 468:7 469:17

470:2

sake 82:11

sale 216:15

Salinas 509:8

salinity 364:19

salmonella 227:21

411:5 413:2

salt 17:10 169:5 170:9

242:17 253:11

salts 4:15 193:21 194:3

194:12,14 221:19

368:16 369:1,4,19

Sam 155:18 472:18

sampling 405:8

sand 145:2 290:20

317:8

sandy 290:21 498:5

sanitation 102:13 228:1

272:16

sanitize 272:1

sanitizer 271:16 272:9

272:11 321:13

sanitizers 43:14 147:8

147:10,15 322:12,13

323:10,11 509:5

sanitizing 271:10

saponification 328:21

satellite 135:7 143:20

146:4 314:10

satirizers 42:16

satisfying 283:18

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172:5

sauces 159:15

save 7:11 174:14 287:7

355:9 356:3

savior 500:1

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330:1 432:9 511:8

512:19 514:3 515:19

saying 11:8 33:13

74:20 82:4,7 85:20

88:3 92:9,16,21

146:14 158:10,17

166:6 188:11 197:1

260:6 323:9 342:14

394:18 431:16 527:17

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199:9 293:7 305:16

313:1 355:15 383:2

415:7 464:10 474:13

483:22 490:13

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88:11 96:1 97:18 98:2

98:3,15,17 106:8

240:12 311:8 388:16

390:20 391:13 460:5

460:10 461:9,22

462:16,22 485:21

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41:4 57:8 419:1

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Schkopapani 513:5

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500:7

science 54:2,21,21 90:5

135:1 162:1 502:3,4,9

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159:21 161:16 249:6

250:12,22 251:5

280:4 293:18 295:13

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221:5 502:9

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301:5 396:1

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Scott 1:17 141:6,16,18

162:22 330:22 333:11

353:7 363:21 383:14

391:15,22 476:16

481:16 510:18 533:8

536:7

scour 136:1

scratching 389:2

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417:21 537:9

scrolling 532:11

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Sea 210:22 212:11

seafood 202:1

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492:15 493:1 520:16

521:4,5,7

Seaplants 2:18 133:17

133:21 134:22 137:18

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267:1,6 421:8 424:18

435:4

searching 275:7 422:7

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466:20 478:15

seasonal 478:13

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531:5

seats 282:15 419:10

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123:2 207:5 223:5

236:13 249:9 280:14

300:19 313:14,20

316:15 324:9 325:3

326:6 347:11 353:3

376:5 401:16 423:14

423:16 451:12 529:12

529:12,19,21 530:8

532:10

secondary 499:6

seconded 324:6,16

325:10 326:8 327:6

334:8 339:13 343:13

345:21 349:4 350:9

356:16 359:16 366:12

367:15 369:20 372:20

396:21 398:5 416:5

417:22 426:8 531:3,3

532:22 533:4 536:3

538:9 540:18

Secondly 54:13 109:1

139:12 380:19 431:21

seconds 250:15

Secretary 1:12 99:19

302:17

sect 85:6

section 25:20 104:9

126:1 196:22 321:9

328:9 335:14 340:20

347:4 368:20 371:1

374:17 400:5 417:9

417:11,13,14 450:12

450:15 451:15 484:1

484:11

Sections 451:17

sector 52:10,11,21

75:17 92:5 98:3

108:12 119:13 148:10

240:15 482:21

sectors 136:7

security 316:16

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sedimentation 206:19

seed 2:19,20 4:18 36:10

37:4,8 63:13 107:20

107:22 108:7,9,10,13

108:14,17 110:2,4,6

110:12,19,22 111:2

112:2,6 113:1,4,13,17

113:20 114:1,11,13

114:14,15,19 115:13

116:3 130:1,4,6,9,11

130:14 131:11,14,17

131:21,22 132:2,15

132:18 207:21 254:22

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265:21,21 266:5,9,16

266:18 267:3,6,10

268:16,18 269:4,9,12

309:12 331:14 420:14

420:21 421:9,9,13,13

421:14,15,19,22

422:1,8,13,15,17,21

424:18 425:4,9 478:9

478:11,11,12

seedling 361:18

seedlings 36:17

seeds 36:12,12,13 37:6

108:2 173:22 202:14

269:2 422:3 425:9,12

425:13 466:17 468:14

500:2

seeing 67:10 150:8

153:11 240:15 243:16

253:20 424:17 464:16

476:3 478:5 485:4

486:16

seek 55:19,22 479:11

seeks 39:10 266:4

seen 75:9 127:6 240:14

289:8 330:7,15,15

414:5 443:7,9,10

446:11 460:6 477:6,8

477:8 478:1,1 480:21

493:18 498:4 507:3

segment 303:16

Seitz 1:18 23:18 44:11

45:2 75:4 76:2 97:17

261:6 325:20 326:18

327:15 333:11,17
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426:12 481:17 486:20

518:19 523:18 531:15

536:21 539:5 541:11

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selected 78:2 169:4

177:19

selection 151:6 178:3

selenium 4:14 307:10

357:20 358:10 359:13

self-tax 303:18

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seminars 253:14

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376:4,21 379:21

380:20 384:7,10

385:11 423:10 426:9

522:13 524:16

sending 7:21 377:4

383:21 423:21 424:8

499:3

Senior 221:5

sense 15:10,16 66:22

92:13 93:3 201:21

276:10 290:4 317:10

319:19 484:22 533:21

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sensitizing 250:12

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428:21 437:3

sentence 5:20 33:15

sentiment 394:2 513:3

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211:18 255:4 324:20

324:21 325:6 389:8

403:18 493:11

separated 402:2

separately 325:2

346:22

separation 184:7

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376:13

sequestration 485:12

488:22 501:10

seriously 155:6

serum 161:7,9

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494:5

served 38:9 53:18

99:16,18 155:19

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121:20 133:13 155:13

155:14 217:8 242:1

292:22 460:17

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196:11 225:8,10

240:10

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50:20,22 77:12

150:10 488:11 507:21

517:22

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116:13 173:18 247:13

249:9 270:20 312:22

378:1 483:16 537:1

539:8 541:15

Seventeen 95:5

seventy-one 95:6

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154:16 448:17 481:3

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218:9 225:15 478:4

sharing 44:3

sharp 388:5

sharply 418:20

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212:2,3,4 213:21

214:1 217:4,11

218:15 219:8

shipload 212:11

shipment 212:7,8

shipments 213:21

217:3 218:19

shippers 269:22

ships 211:21 218:4,8

220:3

Shistar 3:11 35:22 40:4

40:7,8 45:1,3 46:6,13

47:9,18 48:10 139:14

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122:17 190:19 213:11

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shout 101:14

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203:17 241:13 274:15

329:4 412:17 464:22

528:12

showed 63:3 172:15

329:6

showing 190:15 222:7

222:9,13 424:16

shown 169:12 170:10

211:20 274:22 276:1

276:3

shows 99:1,2 128:22

159:22 222:9 234:6

251:13 276:19 440:1

467:3

shredders 449:1

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91:17,18 126:19

177:15 234:5,5

254:12 275:3 388:9

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496:17 518:15

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234:18 424:15 443:17

491:4 503:7 518:11

521:7

sign 97:7 241:7 294:17

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195:10 228:13 271:2

303:2 361:21 449:20

461:7 478:9

significantly 309:13

406:1 419:1 446:15

signing 313:17 316:3

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358:8

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157:3 171:6 186:22

199:6,19 288:6,7

377:6 394:21 435:17

436:9 468:5 520:22

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similarly 126:14 140:12

151:15 169:17 484:6

489:22

simple 20:17,18 37:12

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385:10 426:5 494:11

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151:13 394:4 413:15

449:11 482:11 503:16

505:7

Simultaneous 530:11

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217:11 272:11 375:9

403:2 462:4

sit 36:5 72:14 281:17

505:20

site 51:4 105:8 142:22

313:5 451:8 453:6

site-specific 151:8

431:22 445:21 453:4

sites 199:11 446:19

456:10

sitting 55:18 480:6

situation 28:10 52:2

128:11 178:13 179:8

224:14 389:2 524:11

situations 183:13

six 27:5 176:13 215:2

217:21 249:11 359:3

362:21 363:6,7

386:11 486:18 487:13

526:19

Sixteen 78:1

Sixty 64:3

size 87:18 97:20 210:16

361:18 520:21

skills 477:15

skin 152:15 322:19

516:13,15

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sleep 464:12

sliceable 195:2

slide 6:12 185:13 222:7

222:8,13 304:19

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439:20 445:3 469:13

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428:5 437:3 441:21
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

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Sligh 243:8 517:9

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137:15 166:1 173:14

188:20 222:18,21

225:11 226:9 285:2

319:16 424:5 438:9

439:8 460:7 462:7

480:20

small-scale 461:19

462:5,21

smaller 71:7 274:8

303:10 390:20 391:13

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smart 203:2,5 232:8

smarter 202:22 231:16

231:17

smartest 232:9

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455:7

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soap 221:8 224:2

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222:4,4,15 223:1

328:22

social 248:20

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150:3 493:5

sodium 4:9 102:3,6

159:9,12 160:14,19

160:22 161:3 162:18

163:2,9,17,19,20

164:2,4,8,9,11,12,12

164:15,16,19,20

165:1,16,21 166:7

167:2,21 168:5,10,12

168:16,21 169:4,10

169:11,13,14,15,17

169:19 170:2,5,11,11

170:13,15,18 171:9

172:12,13 193:11,14

193:16,20 194:14,14

194:17 195:1,12,14

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321:2 322:3 324:14

327:5

softer 187:2

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444:22 486:4

soil-based 86:11

284:22 457:20 459:4

463:3 465:1,6 466:5

468:5,20 469:7,11

470:8 483:15 484:22

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361:12

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493:2

solely 195:16 213:7

236:19 478:10 511:2

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450:3

solidify 199:18

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65:22 123:14,21

124:2 125:12,19,22

180:21 354:5,14

356:14 358:17

solulyze 194:7

solution 47:17 65:22

70:22 117:13,21

123:11 251:17 432:14

494:8,10,18 531:13

solutions 24:13 92:3

111:3 116:6 119:15

450:3,4

solve 494:2 510:3

solving 219:19

somebody 69:5 157:9

218:7 320:6 342:19

437:3 463:20 511:1

someday 476:3

something's 128:2

somewhat 17:2,10 76:3

78:19 154:1 262:8

268:19 476:21 528:4

soon 223:18 271:11

273:21 481:7

SOPs 267:9

sorry 5:6 7:20 18:7 61:8

91:15 121:13 126:6

136:9 142:9 146:17

158:22 166:4 175:13

176:18,19,22 196:4

224:7 281:16,21

340:16 351:16 356:19

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476:8 526:4 530:7

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69:1 88:9 238:12

337:14 394:14 442:8

476:14 479:21 525:15

527:16

sorts 129:3 238:1

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107:4 134:14 488:4

510:7

sounds 151:22 232:5

309:1

soup 154:13

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source 113:1 114:11

126:12 132:18 175:5

185:17 206:6,11

308:5 448:17 488:1

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sources 123:21 125:22

174:21 191:1 262:10

382:18 409:14 422:7

436:14

sourcing 110:4 134:12

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310:19 478:9

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246:18 392:22 491:13

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514:16

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167:3,6 205:19

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Specialist 2:2,4

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180:18 193:18 201:17

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166:3 190:8 193:16

194:17 219:21 268:11

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180:2

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stiffer 188:3

stifle 457:10

stimulation 361:13

stipulate 450:21

stipulated 405:20

stipulations 454:1,17

stirred 184:2

stole 449:10

stomach 322:22

Stoneback 243:4

stood 300:16

stop 20:6 27:15 83:12

141:5,6 187:13

203:10 238:8 294:14

441:16 499:17

stopped 212:2,3,7

store 74:10,11 475:7,9

stores 75:9,12 250:2

486:16

storing 496:12

storms 136:1

story 241:11

Stowe 100:22

straight 300:10

straightforward 206:13

strains 151:12

Strategic 2:21 50:1

strategies 107:6,14

108:16

strategy 23:1,3 103:20

106:5 107:2,12

119:14

Straus 252:12,12

straw 21:1

strawberry 508:17

stream 466:15

street 1:9 73:2,18

strengthen 104:21
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

590

110:1 122:8 189:17

424:19

strengthening 4:18

112:2 130:6 265:16

268:15 420:14 422:17

stress 24:22 364:19

stressed 24:18 25:3

376:18

stresses 25:6

strict 15:5 74:4 207:7

524:7

strides 50:5 187:6

303:2

strike 317:6

striking 503:12

stringent 14:4 208:10

strong 52:12 57:13

60:21 74:5 81:8,15

130:19 463:4 521:6

stronger 130:21 194:19

424:20 515:11

strongly 82:20 119:3

123:4 144:11 147:11

148:11 159:8 221:12

255:21 272:14 295:15

297:16 364:20 458:12

483:22

struck 55:1 480:2

structural 340:22 342:8

343:9

structure 35:11,12

179:18 187:3 194:10

537:14

struggle 446:14

struggling 257:3 262:7

stuck 233:20

student 19:11 32:6

499:20

students 19:10 31:19

32:2

studied 83:19

studies 249:3 250:8

251:9 253:8 274:2

278:17 361:15

study 63:2 69:10 70:1

137:2 192:22 251:22

303:22 304:2 309:7

studying 497:5

stuff 23:2 48:6 75:22

86:9 248:4 317:9

331:18 449:15 476:5

509:5

sub 209:11

subcommitte's 109:19

110:1

subcommittee 4:3,7

11:12 14:13 27:2 49:2

52:14 58:8 59:6 93:16

109:5,12 116:20

123:10,22 130:6,18

131:5 133:3 141:2,14

149:12 154:21 189:21

189:22 190:7,8

227:12 255:12 265:16

293:8 294:10 295:1

298:4,7 301:4 302:1,6

320:14,16 324:6

336:2 337:3,16 338:4

342:3 352:10 355:11

356:9 360:19 371:18

372:1 374:20 376:4

377:2 379:4,6,22

381:12 385:13,16

386:18 399:21 400:9

407:9 419:2 422:21

423:4,6,11 426:3,10

428:18 429:15,16,18

430:10 431:10 432:7

459:3,6 482:6 493:16

494:14,17,17 525:17

531:4 533:1 537:18

542:2

subcommittee's 81:14

103:6 148:12 159:9

162:5 196:17 198:1

228:6 383:18

subcommittees 147:13

147:14 196:14

subject 104:17 133:20

267:16,17 383:21

406:13 411:11 488:10

submission 221:18

submit 48:15 91:18

267:8 294:19,20

296:18,21 300:13

submitted 40:12 45:11

100:15 105:18 142:1

142:16 165:6 168:3

196:13 197:16 221:14

223:8 259:18 265:2

270:4 294:21 296:14

296:15,15 297:13

298:21 374:11,12,15

378:15

Subpart 451:3

subsequently 535:6

subset 442:21

substance 347:12

361:20 362:11 363:13

363:19 375:14 380:22

386:14 395:5 396:17

406:21 415:1

substance's 335:17

substances 4:8 104:13

321:10 333:12,18

362:2 368:14,21

473:14,18

substantial 376:22

431:18

substantially 84:11

substantiates 363:17

substantiation 411:8

substantive 423:5

substitute 318:18

substitution 50:21

495:20

substrate 10:16 39:15

51:7 60:12 88:8 192:1

236:14 437:6,14,15

464:19

subtract 436:6

subway 498:4

success 225:20 493:6

successful 31:14

successfully 21:3 94:9

137:20 295:21

succinct 6:19 49:12

75:1,1

succinctly 24:5

sucker 296:9 374:18

375:11 394:2

suckering 389:9

suckers 375:15 393:12

Sue 1:13 25:11 28:11

74:18 75:2 76:5 86:2

86:5 215:19 309:3,4

328:4 333:2 334:8

345:21 356:20 414:16

424:21 470:12 483:1

506:12,18 523:17

524:19 526:4 538:13

sued 318:21

suffer 79:6 230:4

suffering 252:7

sufficed 285:1

sufficient 284:19

407:13 413:14

sufficiently 92:12 93:6

185:20 318:10 408:16

462:17 488:9

sugar 179:20 180:21

181:1,2,14 184:18

suggest 106:20 134:22

135:3 145:14 160:19

217:14 345:14 402:11

suggested 46:3 124:18

136:4 143:19 159:19

196:21 197:16 212:1

266:1 384:14 421:16

422:10 492:13

suggesting 91:10

suggestion 134:3 198:6

199:5 519:12

suggestions 118:14

137:14 220:14 430:8

508:6

suggests 160:12

suitability 150:20 151:8

suitable 170:21 195:11

195:13 291:2,3

suites 498:19

suits 55:20

sulfate 4:11,16 346:21

347:12 348:22 349:2

349:3 371:3 417:7

sulfates 4:13 357:18

358:8 359:8

sulfites 198:12

sulfonate 260:14

sulfur 152:14 226:14

229:7,15

sum 27:11

summarize 322:10

427:18,19,20 456:10

summarized 432:3

summarizing 456:1

summary 170:15

431:11,13 442:16

470:6 490:5

summer 30:15

sun 20:11 38:2

sunset 4:8 41:3,17 43:7

55:16 117:1 193:11

221:8 256:21 258:3,8

258:15 260:13 321:8

324:1,1 335:17 365:8

365:13 388:1

sunsets 320:20 370:20

superior 169:5

supersede 395:13

supplanted 75:12

supplement 194:4

supplemental 29:13,14

400:21 473:1

supplied 103:18 266:22

295:14 433:17 435:1

441:5 537:22 539:21

540:8

suppliers 101:18

178:22 179:2 193:9

421:13

supply 2:17 4:5 42:4

111:1 116:18 119:2,8

120:14 126:16,17

162:11 196:16,20

215:22 237:6 267:6

267:18,19 283:3

285:16 291:11 305:15

374:16 424:20 475:12

478:11

support 11:8 20:9

57:13 60:9 61:2 81:8
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

591

84:12 101:6 103:3

104:14 105:6 107:11

109:10 112:13 116:22

117:16 118:8 122:2

123:9 130:19 131:16

134:2,11 139:6,15

142:20 147:11 152:8

155:16 162:4,13,16

162:19 167:21 178:10

189:20 197:15,18

199:19 221:10 227:14

228:6,20 250:13

255:21 265:22 267:5

272:18 283:9 290:16

290:17 293:19 331:4

345:11 347:21 351:20

352:7,9 361:11

374:19 378:6 400:8

412:9 443:11,12,17

462:5 463:8,11 470:8

470:9 482:4 487:3,14

490:10 494:16 495:15

504:14 505:10 515:12

supported 58:7 77:7

159:11 266:17 336:1

341:13 355:11 422:9

490:2

supporters 150:5

supporting 19:18 47:14

108:21 110:3 444:15

453:11 489:9

supportive 109:1

354:20 358:18 526:17

supports 58:4 103:6,14

123:3 133:22 141:14

148:11 159:8 177:12

193:13 196:19 272:14

Suppose 60:13

supposed 101:2 329:18

410:14

Suppress 223:14

surface 114:7 224:14

248:19 537:15

surfactants 45:8

surprise 495:13

surrounded 8:22 391:7

surrounding 134:20

135:1 453:7

survey 17:6,9 73:19

96:20,22 236:10

256:21 258:15 460:18

461:13

surveys 261:11

survival 94:22 151:14

493:13

survive 25:9 404:13,18

404:20

suspended 88:17

432:13 531:12

sustainability 38:6

50:22 64:9 205:7

445:16 454:4 457:2

458:21 488:15 496:7

sustainable 2:16 19:17

37:20 134:13 137:13

137:15 138:2,18

173:7 178:11 189:14

366:9 375:22 407:2

457:20 458:9 495:8

495:20 497:20 508:7

510:6

sustainably 237:13

sustains 94:5

sustenance 39:8

Suzanne 3:6 146:19

149:19,22 152:10

153:10

SWAFFAR 1:12 62:15

87:13 152:10 153:3,9

163:16 208:14 219:15

229:6,12 272:22

273:3 294:15 319:6

325:19 326:17 327:14

331:11,21 332:3,9

334:16 339:19 343:19

346:4 349:8 351:3

353:22 357:10 360:8

367:3 368:5 370:10

373:8 377:12 386:1

389:15 390:14 398:12

416:13 418:3 424:11

426:11 490:18 528:10

532:6 536:20 539:4

541:10

swath 81:19

swear 237:1

sweeping 202:9

Sweet 231:11

swept 314:4

swine 150:21 151:2

swinging 481:8

switch 95:17 298:13

299:10

switching 299:5

sword 521:21 522:2,2,3

symbiotic 447:17

Synergy 104:14

synthetic 73:21 149:10

198:2 221:13,20

222:22 304:14,18

306:10 321:10 372:18

375:21 382:14 386:17

386:19,20 387:10,20

392:19 394:9 396:18

396:20 397:1,2 401:4

416:6,7

synthetics 68:1

syrups 101:22

system's 11:3

systems-based 448:8

T

T-U-U-M 471:22

table 174:14 248:3

435:10 444:3 490:10

541:19

taken 50:12 106:10

107:1 143:12 158:2

255:20 461:3 494:17

takes 21:15 203:3 208:1

249:11 332:21 355:16

530:2

tale 185:14

talk 32:3 44:1 53:22

64:9 87:14 98:16

120:6 124:4 157:15

221:7 226:13 230:11

231:17 238:2 243:2

243:22 251:20 283:15

293:16 297:18 303:19

347:19 364:9 372:7

381:13 382:3 423:3

470:15 498:20 499:15

512:2 521:15 525:16

talked 34:16 72:7,11

204:6 250:19 252:14

252:18,20 253:13

257:15 263:1 309:20

310:13,14 323:10

338:15 458:18 479:16

503:1 517:8

talking 92:20 98:11

179:14 204:5 212:16

236:20 256:11 258:9

267:5 276:11,13,17

378:22 393:6 428:3

454:22 486:15 494:9

512:5 516:8 534:19

talks 127:7 185:14

tally 532:8

tanks 206:17,18 272:4

TAP 160:3 293:22

target 105:14 345:16

497:9

targeted 345:7

targeting 345:6

tartar 256:13,20

tartrate 102:4 196:18

197:22 198:10,13

256:12

task 18:22,22 25:13

32:3 35:6 47:4 53:20

134:10 155:19 178:18

179:7 191:12 200:8

204:7 208:18 302:19

303:5 306:7 429:8,20

430:7 431:11 434:4

443:15

taste 73:18 169:7

170:14,20 311:2

tasting 73:14

tasty 154:14

taught 19:4 26:15 28:14

464:2 470:21 471:12

498:2

taxi 248:7

taxonomy 134:6

tea 174:8,8,8 175:7

289:3 371:16

teach 18:17,20 28:16

30:4 464:10 498:1

teachers 138:17

teaching 31:13

team 44:2 185:1 207:22

tearing 68:3

tech 278:9

technical 44:19 46:10

161:5 167:9 182:8

240:16 241:14 254:4

278:10 298:9 322:4

328:15 329:4 335:18

336:4 338:19 341:3

344:17 351:13 354:15

358:11 361:2 374:21

375:12,18 400:11,13

400:22 404:5 407:10

415:18 482:1

technically 430:8

533:11 534:12,15

techniques 95:15 289:9

406:8

technologies 212:21

232:12 284:21 285:15

457:22

technology 205:4 457:8

telephone 464:5

tell 20:14 21:15 44:13

55:7 67:21 70:4 76:16

83:19 87:18 137:19

149:3,7 176:5 183:1

185:10 198:22 216:12

241:11 242:12 247:16

311:1 373:21 437:12

459:13 464:2 534:19

telling 149:4 215:4

320:1 475:21 535:15

temperate 155:3

temperature 10:17

24:21 36:14 304:8

401:14 402:16,19

405:11,14 409:22

410:6 412:21 452:11
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

592

temporary 154:17

ten 48:1 173:18 278:4

339:3 375:8 393:3

ten-acre 287:10

ten-minute 418:19

tend 187:2 390:19

tendency 71:10

Tennessee 210:15

tens 228:19

tension 13:14 127:4

tenth 27:8

term 22:10 39:5 94:19

149:13,14 202:3

213:11 352:3 458:21

473:2,9

terminology 109:2,9

199:7,15,19 256:4

terms 9:19 14:8,17 15:1

44:4 75:11 107:6

109:13 123:6 127:6

164:9,18 205:7

237:22 238:11 256:10

262:18 263:6 276:9

338:17 378:14 406:3

410:22 486:12 508:3

508:14,20 525:17

terrestrial 65:20 428:12

445:7 450:2,10,20

537:14

Terry 3:11 35:21 40:4,5

40:7 43:9,13 46:12,16

49:9 139:14

test 305:12 310:18

testified 32:17 34:6

75:7

testifiers 97:17 483:8

testify 99:1

testifying 50:1 93:15

testimony 98:7 283:14

483:10 485:19 486:4

testing 108:15,20

336:19,22 337:1

338:21 354:13 355:7

355:14,16,20 356:2

358:7 359:2 412:21

413:1,7,7,13 422:14

Texas 210:15 243:12

texture 164:19,20 169:6

170:7,9,20 183:17

184:13 186:22 187:3

187:17

thanks 28:13 49:20

53:13 76:4 84:7 86:1

87:13 89:18 96:14

120:2 121:7 129:10

133:12 145:11 149:18

154:8 176:20 192:18

196:7,8 199:22 210:3

237:8 242:5 248:13

265:9 291:5,7 322:6

335:19 341:4 344:18

347:2,17 351:14

354:16 358:1,12

361:3 368:18 369:2

371:4 375:3 400:16

476:17

thee 52:2,8 526:11

theoretically 318:15

480:11

therapies 249:2,6,21

250:10

thereof 204:4 316:8

they'd 114:19

thick 127:4 298:21

thicken 162:6 184:4

thickener 184:11

things 13:7 22:1,6 25:8

31:1 35:14,18 46:22

47:22 53:2 89:11

127:2,12,12,14,15

128:9 137:12 163:11

175:12,19 186:18

213:11 226:13 230:19

232:8,9 238:1 250:2

252:1,6 256:17 260:1

288:1 307:18 308:2

312:12 315:1 323:3

337:18 384:14 389:20

465:5 467:22 479:6

485:4 486:2,3 495:14

495:16,19 500:22

508:14 509:4 516:20

517:12 518:10 527:20

thinks 65:6,12

thinned 393:18

thinning 393:16

third 57:11 123:9 127:3

150:9 207:18 234:5

400:10 429:12

Thirdly 160:11

Thirty 247:20

Thomas 471:15,17

thorough 400:18

415:16

thought 34:20 35:3

58:4 73:19 74:21

119:22 123:15 129:12

157:12 204:10 285:14

293:2 342:13 380:7

394:11,16 423:4

433:13 476:19 482:3

512:8 525:8

thoughtful 120:1 203:1

420:22

thoughtfulness 525:5

thoughts 47:6 115:5

136:21 154:16 155:17

198:20 258:6 407:6

thousand 95:5

thousands 81:5 228:20

285:5 464:3 516:14

thread 220:3

threat 94:15,22 98:18

threatening 38:19

threats 94:13

three 5:15,18 14:2

19:21 21:13 22:1 24:6

25:16 27:3 28:6 32:16

79:15 104:12 106:16

106:19 108:2 109:10

138:22 142:17 168:13

180:9 211:20 215:7

216:14 240:20 254:17

258:2 259:16 261:21

262:3 266:16 287:11

308:2 316:22 321:5

321:11 322:1,8,10

324:8,11,20,21 325:5

325:5 359:4 360:18

362:8 415:7 422:8

436:5 476:14 487:7

495:11,16,18 497:22

515:16

three-year 303:21

451:10

threshold 266:10

thresholds 266:12

thrive 130:17 447:15

thriving 151:14

throat 322:21

throw 73:1 522:6

throwing 69:2 238:6

ticks 227:6

tie 89:12

tie-up 501:8

tied 127:21 128:1

151:18 458:4

ties 412:21

tight 72:1

tight-knit 512:17

tighten 126:3

tightening 118:19

Tilapia 39:18

tillage 484:5

tilling 90:18

timeframe 7:3 29:22

451:10

times 48:13 53:6 98:20

150:17 225:16 230:1

263:11 288:13 309:21

325:5 333:5 341:8

377:7,18 378:1 388:6

425:2 472:19 498:7,9

timing 267:1 407:17

487:5 504:12

tip 502:5

tips 498:19

tirelessly 493:17

tissue 250:5 253:8

to-harvest 401:6

tobacco 4:16 246:13,15

246:16,19,20 247:13

292:16 296:12 297:7

298:10,11,13 299:3

299:10 300:17 302:3

302:6 370:20 371:2

371:15 372:2,19

375:15,18,19 378:16

378:22 379:1 380:5

381:21 382:8 383:9

383:10,17 387:14

389:10,16 391:8

392:6,13,21,22 393:1

393:9,12 394:22

395:6,13,16 396:1

tobacco-heavy 391:4

today 8:4 49:13 50:1

92:6 93:15 99:13

147:2 150:4 168:9

180:15 193:11,15

196:15 202:21 205:15

226:9 270:5,14 278:3

284:16 285:11 302:20

312:13 315:15 320:15

384:1 423:7 442:14

443:9 444:4 474:9

485:1 489:15 494:14

500:13 505:20 513:5

520:2 541:17

told 21:9 26:9,10,11

212:4,5 218:6 296:19

298:10,20 300:13

428:15 429:19 462:8

516:12

tolerance 347:7 422:19

tolerate 25:8

Tom 1:9,11 2:17 49:20

53:13 115:4 121:7,16

138:10 153:6 243:3

247:6,21 282:2,17

291:8,11,19 293:10

294:12,15 296:5,7

302:11 320:18 323:20

324:19 334:2,5 339:6

343:5 348:18 356:12

372:16 373:18 378:8

379:2 387:21 396:13

414:17 415:12,20

472:10 481:7 487:4

517:8 525:21 526:14

541:16

Tom's 383:22 481:7
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

593

tomato 394:2 496:21,21

496:22 497:12,16

tomatoes 11:19 12:11

21:11 29:20 30:1

190:13 231:11 317:19

317:21 392:15 394:3

435:12 491:9,12

515:16

tomorrow 419:3,4

542:1,1

tonight 240:19 247:17

tons 135:13,17

tool 102:15 112:16,20

113:13 227:15 230:14

271:5 331:3 341:16

342:8 364:4

toolbox 144:3,7 149:5

227:3,10 331:3 364:5

413:22

tools 102:13 130:16

132:21 143:19 144:2

145:17 146:13 227:3

227:10 228:5 229:19

230:20 271:10 272:15

323:3 413:21

top 48:5 136:15 232:20

239:5 275:3 290:17

310:6 331:22 332:22

442:17

topic 44:6 45:2 117:15

118:21 139:2 148:1

151:18 266:3 267:15

268:13 279:14,17

424:1

topically 152:16

topics 4:7 152:4,6

225:16,18 226:6

254:19

topping 375:11 389:17

torturous 147:5

total 69:3 70:3 103:18

177:9 211:20 230:9

435:15 438:8 461:17

totally 69:4 72:1,5

238:22 242:15,16

tote 184:5

touch 130:5 201:16

touched 388:11 511:21

tough 65:2 81:7 106:22

148:3 191:12 257:11

482:2

toxic 10:4 15:7 16:4

17:1 42:9 45:5 124:10

329:16 388:22 436:22

toxicities 387:15

toxicity 224:3,8 388:20

TR 162:3 296:11 300:5

300:6 329:15 361:10

361:19 362:1 379:1

381:20 382:18 388:15

392:14,16 404:10,22

410:18

trace 217:3

traceability 207:20

217:15 267:19

traced 474:5

track 60:22 217:11

421:8 451:10

tracking 213:8 217:8,15

218:8 219:1

tractor 333:7

tractors 475:16

Tracy 3:8 200:2 204:18

204:20 205:1

trade 3:4,15 65:3 79:16

100:14 117:14 118:21

119:6 254:5 260:3,6

260:15 268:9 345:12

traders 3:8 205:1,9,18

207:22 220:1 255:18

traditional 95:14

184:18 205:6,13

479:4

tragic 94:20

trail 318:17

trained 136:8

training 118:20 144:1

255:22

traits 110:13

transactions 39:6

transcribe 463:21

transcriptionist 391:19

transcripts 158:2

transform 82:16

transition 320:4 451:11

transitioned 229:21

transitioning 144:12

501:4

translate 144:19

translates 54:8

transloading 268:11

transparency 83:10

314:19,20 315:3,6

505:11 507:20 510:4

513:1 519:3

transparent 35:13

82:18 103:2 264:22

transplant 29:12

transplanted 361:13

transplants 27:21,22

29:10 361:16 430:22

434:1 441:13 538:6

540:15

transport 456:21

transported 185:21

trapped 345:9

trapping 345:6,16

traps 342:1 344:22

345:15,20

traps/barriers 4:11

344:12,16

travel 226:12 446:18

traveling 210:20

trays 173:17 175:3

treat 295:1 403:8

treating 94:3

treatment 217:6,12

403:9,17

tree 271:5,12 272:6,20

345:5

trees 36:20 191:17

198:6 275:21 317:13

361:16 501:18

trellis 200:14

tremendous 120:13

393:20

trend 269:14

trial 112:7 113:5

trialing 112:4 421:2,4,5

trials 112:14 113:12

478:12

tribal 513:12 514:20,20

tricophyton 250:16

tried 40:14 79:11

413:20 496:18 497:14

tries 244:3

trisodium 168:14

trophic 448:6,13 450:13

453:12 454:15,21

455:4,10 499:13

516:7,9,17

trouble 249:20 494:4

troubled 44:16

troves 537:17

truck 509:9

trucked 509:10

true 17:2 40:17 75:18

159:21 201:10 316:17

318:22 472:4

truly 33:3 37:20 70:18

74:3 122:20 186:7

243:16 315:4 483:14

491:16

trunks 345:5

trust 54:8,12 56:12 95:4

trustees 507:10

trusts 55:1

truth 284:14 534:19

try 6:21 7:9 8:20 49:4

65:5 67:22,22 72:16

72:17 74:20 77:3

200:16 259:6 291:2

298:5 308:3 424:17

479:18 480:22 507:1

trying 24:16 36:11

60:21 61:8,10,18 79:3

84:17 86:10 89:1,5

93:5 114:16 171:20

188:9,13 230:14,19

231:20 236:4 239:21

276:10 299:18 300:9

330:19 377:20 413:19

449:20 454:20 455:2

485:20 493:18 494:2

Tucker 2:5 99:11

153:15 228:8 261:5

525:1

tune 80:14

tuning 142:1

tunnels 12:14,15 19:13

28:21

Turkey 212:13

turkeys 151:2

Turkish 258:10 260:22

261:20 262:22

turn 7:16,17 10:3

151:20 171:15 174:6

360:18 407:3 504:10

turned 212:6 254:10

turning 374:7

turns 5:18 308:13

tweaked 133:4

tweaking 424:8

Twenty 27:12

twice 213:18 466:4

two 8:20 24:6 25:16

32:7 38:7 48:12,20

49:7 57:9 62:16 70:21

77:3 100:9 106:17

128:16,16,22 141:12

152:4 164:13 173:11

181:4 184:21 205:22

211:19 221:17 255:1

262:3 266:8 274:15

287:17 304:14,15,15

308:2,9 312:12

316:20 338:20 346:19

348:19 360:19 361:5

368:13 371:12 380:10

389:7 396:15 401:9

402:11 405:2 429:11

468:18 475:2 481:19

499:14 503:4,7 512:1

512:19 518:20 519:6

two-fold 307:20

two-pronged 311:10

two-thirds 340:13

530:3

type 44:19 58:10 81:19

90:17 138:3 166:19

167:1 176:9 187:3

194:15 251:17 262:6
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

594

263:1 278:22 289:6

492:6 528:14

types 86:13 117:7,19

151:7 168:8 180:9

182:15 183:18 184:3

184:13,20 195:18

255:17 262:3 263:12

356:5 456:17,19

510:14

typically 25:3 43:19

132:7 169:9 172:17

179:19 180:20 183:20

345:3 409:9 520:5

typo 352:12 353:1

U

U.K 212:4

U.S 95:16 114:10

142:15 160:20 170:17

211:10 214:21 215:18

216:11 218:8 232:7

271:1 283:5 286:3

308:9

UC 174:3 311:5

Ukraine 210:20

ultimate 82:12 207:4

494:8,10,18

ultimately 445:18

un-composted 415:7

unable 195:13 211:8

361:19

unacceptable 35:6

unachievable 81:17

unanimous 34:9 159:9

242:21 245:1 352:9

unanimously 369:7

unanticipated 41:10

uncertainties 284:18

uncertified 4:6 119:4

267:21

uncle 24:11

unclear 61:1

uncontentious 344:21

uncovered 211:17

uncovering 211:7

undecided 19:21

underestimate 242:3

undergo 417:12

undergoing 411:20

underlying 50:17 54:21

273:15

undermine 55:9

undermined 260:7

undermines 56:12

underneath 331:18

520:19

underscores 130:9

understand 18:19

20:20 23:22 37:18

44:12 65:5 67:8 68:5

73:13 79:15 112:15

119:14 124:20 149:12

180:8 183:8 190:11

213:20 227:12 273:12

293:7 294:16 315:8

319:8 376:10 379:1

383:18 455:2,9

477:19 502:2,5 507:2

509:22 535:8

understanding 16:21

34:14 42:14 87:5

111:16 113:14,19

124:6 128:4 178:12

197:5 364:1 382:15

392:8 463:2 502:20

understood 232:11

233:7

undertaking 122:14

undertook 403:13

underway 112:13

undesirable 514:18

unfair 108:12

unfinished 42:10

unforseen 115:15

unfortunate 20:4 26:2

143:11 200:9

unfortunately 7:4 21:21

22:22 144:17 325:6

425:17 488:12

unheated 28:21

unified 226:5

uniform 184:4 388:7

unimaginable 284:9

unintended 501:1

Union 213:1 217:18

Union's 230:13 486:11

unique 19:14 179:22

389:1 446:10,20,21

457:8,22

uniquely 23:21 432:1

unit 63:22

United 1:1 116:15 163:4

163:7 210:13 214:9

270:17 305:7,17

461:8 470:20

universities 176:12

436:14

University 2:12 105:10

303:22 439:14 497:5

499:20

unknowingly 96:6

unknown 135:4

unnatural 496:1 498:13

498:17

unnecessarily 381:1

unnecessary 402:20

unpack 139:10

unproven 366:9 406:18

unquote 151:10 155:20

158:3

unreasonable 480:2

unresolved 143:18

unsure 143:21

unsustainable 498:9,11

untreated 466:17

468:14

untrue 136:6

unviable 290:11

up-regulating 499:5

update 116:3 153:12,14

306:8

updated 115:7 131:7

updates 115:20 228:14

303:2 305:6

updating 113:6

uphold 226:1

upper 465:4 511:14

uptake 436:15

uptakes 436:16

urban 9:21 173:2

286:12 447:2 456:20

475:4 483:1

urge 58:22 59:17 82:20

93:15 104:20 106:1

118:15 119:15 122:10

123:5 124:6 149:11

255:7 315:5

urgently 155:4

urges 105:19 123:9

147:13

USA 400:4

usage 114:1 131:17,22

132:2 202:19

USAs 104:14

USD 209:10

USDA 15:11 42:14 55:7

58:17 82:15 94:9

150:7,15 156:9,13

200:19,20 201:7

202:1,3 203:7,13

204:11,12,13 208:7

210:11 211:2 226:3

228:9 246:6 305:16

314:5 371:17 456:15

460:13 492:15 512:9

520:15

USDA's 38:8 192:10

useful 175:11 337:9

387:17

users 363:7

uses 46:9 101:20 106:8

166:11 173:11 202:13

298:15 301:7,8,11,14

301:16 365:21

usual 517:1

usually 12:12 24:17

127:16 144:19 163:13

169:4 194:13 286:7

utility 467:3,5

utilization 317:22

utilize 220:18 488:20

utilized 379:19 447:6

utilizes 51:13 205:12

utter 318:19

utterly 313:1

V

vacuum 403:2

validated 508:12

validation 413:9

Valley 3:14 302:16

509:8

valuable 103:20 108:17

204:15 499:6

value 26:18,19 55:10

143:16 144:20 145:8

226:8 462:1 504:2

values 41:1 144:13

vanilla 100:4 102:6,8,10

variability 105:8

variances 154:17

variation 204:4 432:11

531:11

varied 388:6

varietal 114:20

varieties 112:16,17

132:9 421:2,14

variety 51:4 112:8,14

113:5,12 115:13

132:6,19 162:15

181:20 182:10,15

183:12 195:8,18

225:16 289:12 290:9

323:2 358:20 421:3

422:2,8 458:8

various 117:6 225:17

227:8 228:19 252:19

306:17 389:13 435:8

435:8 452:11

varroa 155:1

vary 172:13

varying 194:12

vascular 65:21 161:11

450:2,10

vast 390:18 491:16

vegetable 8:5 72:10

296:18 361:16 435:6

435:11 462:6

vegetables 9:20 173:6

174:13 179:18 285:3

475:18 497:18

Ventura 290:19
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

595

verb 141:4

verifiable 445:19

verification 143:19

144:5 266:19 267:2

413:7,15

verified 267:12 448:9

verify 143:9 220:4

415:5

vermicompost 174:6,7

174:8,22 175:6

vermiculture 288:22

Vermont 100:22 388:2

491:10

versatile 249:18

versatility 249:13

versify 203:5

version 445:11 449:18

512:9

versus 62:17 111:13

163:14 222:11 231:15

293:2 389:9 469:8

526:11

vertebrates 449:7

vertical 173:2

vessel 401:16,19

537:12,16

vested 79:14

Vetericyn 251:22

veterinarian 248:15

251:5

veterinarians 251:6

veterinaries 251:8

viable 223:6 275:14

343:1 382:11 391:10

404:16,19

Vice 1:12 99:18 254:3

view 19:16 27:11 51:17

120:21 213:7 394:4

427:16,17,18,19

433:7 442:3,16,17,20

442:22 444:14 445:10

445:13 446:7,9 448:2

448:14 462:15 486:13

495:11,15 496:5

497:20 509:15 519:22

535:3

views 26:12 117:17

232:4 490:9 519:6

vigor 361:18

village 513:6,7

vines 435:15

Vineyards 3:4 67:15

violation 313:10

Virginia 495:5

virtually 288:10 402:10

viruses 249:17

viscosity 179:21 181:5

181:14

vision 9:12 144:17

145:10 279:19 459:22

visionary 233:22

visit 478:3

visited 27:18 478:1

496:10

visiting 391:3 486:16

vital 102:4 271:7 272:15

vitally 294:7

vitamin 4:15,15,15

117:1 361:12,17,21

362:2 366:5

vitamins 357:16 360:15

361:1 367:12,14

vivo 251:9 361:21

voice 54:15 460:11

505:15,18

voiced 262:15

voices 116:17

volatile 401:17

volume 177:12

volunteer 46:18 53:5

volunteered 504:10

volunteers 147:6

voted 78:5 182:21

227:12 292:10 293:8

336:2 358:17,21

365:14 369:7 371:18

534:21

votes 131:3 162:17

327:3 335:4 340:8,13

340:14 344:9 346:17

349:21 351:4 357:12

360:12 364:10 367:8

368:11 370:17 373:16

385:10 386:10 397:17

399:1 417:3 418:16

426:6 427:3 523:19

523:21 526:16 528:18

532:7 533:13 536:22

539:7 541:14

voting 257:16 324:7,18

325:10 326:9 327:7

334:10 339:14 343:16

346:2 349:1,7 350:11

353:6 356:18,19

359:17 366:15 367:18

370:1 373:1 378:6

385:14 395:15 397:2

398:8 416:10 418:1

426:8 521:16 523:3

531:4,7 533:7,19

534:6 536:7 538:13

540:21

W

wage 76:18

wait 414:7 422:15

455:19 541:17

waiting 104:13,18

142:21 143:5 292:6

403:22 441:20

waits 55:19

Walden 3:12 193:3

196:3,6,6 198:22

199:4,22

walk 52:19 248:1,1

471:7

Walker 3:12 138:12

142:10,13,14 145:22

146:10

walking 9:13 56:19

walls 486:17

Walnut 244:20

Wanda 2:20 179:10

180:12 181:21 182:3

182:4,7

wanted 62:11 106:15

129:11 141:19 145:14

145:18 240:18 247:2

294:22,22 299:5,8

303:19 305:5 321:6

330:1 339:2 380:2

399:9 400:17 407:3

412:11 420:2,6,11

428:9 442:4 455:21

459:7 464:22 480:22

480:22 507:17 517:7

526:1,6

wanting 73:18 204:14

248:21 306:10

wants 52:11 72:17

381:16 382:3

war 59:20

warehouse 318:2

454:14

warm 30:13 471:6,7

warned 459:11

warning 7:7

warns 5:16

warrant 396:7

washed 499:1

Washington 55:20 57:4

57:8 105:10 211:7,13

212:9 218:16 269:20

270:2,17 314:8

318:12

wasn't 28:9 35:15 96:22

232:20 243:15 296:20

307:13 310:1 338:16

342:18 364:19 381:12

383:2 384:22,22

387:3,9 388:16 530:7

waste 22:22 38:5

173:13,22 202:16

206:7,7 240:20

401:11,12,15,22

432:22

wasteful 480:3

wastewater 532:17

watch 36:21

watching 314:21

water 1:9 19:7 36:21

37:7 51:3,7 88:8,9

141:21 154:15 169:2

171:14 173:8,12,19

191:22 202:16 205:13

206:21 224:12 253:11

272:3,15 273:19

317:8,16,17 321:16

321:16,19 329:8

351:12 432:22 433:3

433:4 439:21 452:17

465:9 466:11,14

468:12 478:19 498:16

503:1,5,6,10,13,17

518:7 532:20,20

539:12

water-based 467:18

469:9

watered 96:7 154:13

waters 224:15,15

waterways 329:18

way 9:12,15 13:12

20:17 24:8 26:6 44:21

46:8,13 48:8,12,20

49:7 52:3,6 76:3

95:12,18 98:4 113:2

113:21 118:8,16

127:10 128:6 132:16

152:17 174:12 176:1

188:17 200:17 201:2

207:21 209:19 214:3

214:8 217:9 219:9

235:3 246:6 256:14

259:1 260:9 261:2

262:13 284:10 285:13

287:21 296:1,3

315:22 316:12 336:2

345:15 355:4 362:11

387:9 394:21 413:14

434:11 436:1 437:10

438:22 439:1 444:21

481:10 490:13 492:22

499:7 503:8 504:21

505:13 506:12 509:1

509:16,20 510:20

513:15,22 515:6

516:18 527:14

ways 47:13 115:18

122:8 139:5 181:12

267:9 270:15 328:13

355:22 387:8 457:19

461:21 498:18
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

596

Weakley 243:6

weaknesses 55:11

wealthy 154:12

weapons 316:18

wearing 68:10

weather 234:13 285:6

web 10:10 37:17 158:5

webinar 336:17 376:15

376:16 384:20 459:18

webinars 283:15

website 113:11 374:14

400:15

WEDNESDAY 1:7

weed 110:15 223:6

328:9 332:20 333:12

335:12

weeding 223:9

weeds 332:18

week 19:11 98:21 108:4

310:21

weekend 311:18

weeks 139:20 191:20

215:7

weigh 104:4 258:22

260:10

weighed 264:17

weight 277:15 436:3

Weisman 3:13 93:11

99:7,10,12

Welch 472:18

welcome 80:19 83:3

158:20 268:5

welfare 150:1,13,16

151:20 152:2,13

281:18

well-articulated 283:12

well-regulated 316:15

Welsch 155:18

went 27:18 36:15

158:17 282:11 292:4

298:12 419:7 429:4

434:9 465:2 517:12

525:6 542:7

weren't 5:12 26:9 69:8

154:11 165:10 235:8

243:15 310:6 342:20

383:10 517:13

west 332:13 333:4

460:7

Westbridge 2:19 221:6

221:10,16

western 78:16 230:13

wetlands 466:16

whack 332:20

whatsoever 88:16

319:19

whey 258:9 260:21

262:2

whichever 117:13

white 184:1,10

who've 201:2

Wholesale 2:14

wholesaler 120:10

Wholesaler's 116:13

wholly-owned 286:18

Whoriskey 211:13,21

214:1 215:8

wide 90:19 182:10

195:8,18 249:22

253:5 290:9,20

344:22 406:4

widely 102:12 134:19

250:1 272:9

wider 195:20

widespread 251:16

wild 57:7 106:20 107:11

136:20 137:3 198:21

199:1,18 309:10

wildlife 465:13,14,16

466:3

William 243:7 471:16

willing 11:11 55:2 70:1

234:2 378:20 511:19

win 248:15 297:21

wind 503:22

wine 73:16,18 76:10

198:10 316:11

winemaker 67:14

wines 76:21

winners 191:14 497:22

winter 30:17 88:21

136:1 508:17

wish 261:7 283:15

510:12 519:20

wit 316:5

withdraw 293:5

withdrawal 293:3

withdrew 300:15

withholding 417:18

withstanding 489:9

Wittenberg 244:19

women 69:11

wonder 13:14 460:12

464:13 514:19

wondered 87:9 112:8

wonderful 241:22 476:9

476:9 504:4

wondering 43:16 75:14

136:19 152:12 198:19

214:16 290:3 389:17

535:4,7

wood 20:22,22

word 15:14 20:3 25:8

62:9,10 148:17

216:18,19 310:8

464:18 471:22 474:17

495:22 520:21 521:8

wording 198:19,20

421:2 430:17

words 35:8,17 38:5

75:2 110:17 348:11

417:12 472:2 473:20

484:8

wordsmithing 422:5

worked 30:10 31:18,22

95:5 176:11 389:10

493:17 498:3 538:17

workers 94:4 287:4

workforce 39:11

working 19:9,10 20:13

20:20 22:6 23:11,19

23:20,20 46:4,8,14,22

48:14 53:10 60:3

83:15 94:1 110:12

112:10 113:4,16,16

129:17 138:17 152:7

164:7 173:14 176:10

178:21 183:16 242:5

256:1 267:18 304:3

309:9 320:4 387:14

414:14 469:12 479:20

487:2

workload 41:4 46:18

139:16 381:1 384:2

385:3

works 20:20 26:14 37:2

52:9 107:21 130:2

137:22 186:13 234:11

242:4 281:22 305:12

428:8 439:1 479:11

workshops 464:4

workstation 323:4

world 39:3 68:20 83:14

97:22 127:15 128:14

138:3 202:19,21

213:16 256:17 284:1

284:7,16,20 471:3,4

474:7 496:12 500:4

world's 133:17

worldwide 137:12,16

461:15,18

worms 174:5

worried 235:17

worry 15:17 244:11

worrying 218:19 315:7

wort 251:4

worth 90:7 525:20

wouldn't 21:13 31:2

209:22 231:2 236:6

331:19 392:12

wound 250:6

wounds 251:1 252:9

253:6

woven 464:18

Wow 486:20

wrap 11:7,8 261:10

415:13 419:15 496:19

496:20

wrestle 28:8

writ 52:3

write 471:13

writers 233:7

writing 254:14

written 47:5 114:6

116:3,4 118:7,13

119:10,21 131:3,5,6

137:9 139:4 140:9

142:16 147:18 166:9

168:3 196:13 221:14

223:5 229:3 270:4

283:13 294:19,20

295:2 297:13 376:14

376:19 377:14,17,18

384:20 454:16 455:6

460:2 472:19 485:2

490:12 530:13,14

wrong 30:9 31:3 79:3

83:19 239:22 304:20

330:10 365:7

wrote 32:20 34:10

145:3 211:1 400:20

Wyard 3:15 248:11

253:21,22 254:3

258:8,12 262:12

263:21 264:4,13,21

265:6,9

X

X 69:9

Y

Yakima 269:20

Yankees 474:17

yard 506:19

year 12:13 22:7 28:15

36:16,16 55:16 67:17

75:13 98:20 104:12

112:21,21 114:12,18

173:4 218:18 225:13

235:6 269:10 274:17

288:12,13 302:21

306:8 336:11,11

400:12 437:8 440:8,8

461:12 469:22 475:1

475:3 478:17 497:8

513:20

year-round 9:20 28:18

174:14 440:10 457:7

year-to-year 421:12

yearly 149:1 217:7

years 8:19 12:12 18:14

18:17 19:2,5,9 20:12
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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20:21 21:2 27:4,5,12

29:1 30:10 31:19 36:9

40:14 48:1 51:12

53:20 67:20 69:9

70:22 72:3 91:22

100:8 113:6 137:21

138:7 168:7 173:6

176:10 178:14 191:18

199:12 210:21 225:16

229:20 233:10 234:5

236:3 266:7 277:19

280:15,22 283:19

284:8 303:1 312:21

338:20 339:3 391:7

425:1 442:12 467:5

470:17 475:2 477:7

479:20 481:19 489:16

497:10,10 501:4

512:1

yeast 249:17

yellow 5:18

yesterday 5:12 7:9

11:16 21:9 22:11 28:6

33:17 43:21 44:5

51:22 54:10 62:15

75:7 122:13 128:20

144:21 153:13 212:2

212:20 213:6 220:12

260:2 261:5 314:16

323:16 511:1

yield 24:19 309:13

435:12,13

yielding 34:21

yields 364:18 457:7

yogurt 183:21 184:1,1,9

York 495:6 498:2,4

young 24:10 31:7,16

208:19 284:3,10,15

286:3,9 475:4,15

497:4

Youngblood 3:16

116:10 121:13,16,17

125:5,8,10

Z

zero 88:19 173:14

223:19 304:17 326:5

327:4 328:2 335:5

340:9 344:10 346:18

349:22,22,22 351:5

354:3 357:13 360:13

367:9 368:12 370:18

373:17 397:18 399:2

417:4 418:17 427:4

532:8

zinc 4:14 357:19 358:9

359:9

zone 191:10

Zurich 274:3

0

0.005 276:17

0.007 276:18

1

1,000 8:8 436:3

1,000-kilo 184:5

1:01 282:11

10 88:10,19 113:5

154:11 175:2 199:12

205:13 305:12 461:1

461:2 497:15 499:13

10-state 138:20

10-year 143:5

10,000 135:17 439:15

10:30 129:17

100 27:4 36:15 60:11,17

61:5 62:2 87:20

104:22 105:7 205:11

210:16 214:21 236:19

272:6 278:13,16

279:6,10 305:18

336:18 337:4 338:10

410:11 421:18 435:14

100-acre 389:19

100,000 313:15,19

101 401:11,21 405:12

105 36:16

108 68:15 72:20 87:16

110 162:2

12 329:2 374:11,13

402:18 479:20 496:12

120 410:2

1200 138:19

121 461:17

13 275:1 280:21

130 87:21

131 405:15

14 305:17 335:5 349:22

532:8

14,000 174:1 270:21

14,185 460:22

140 311:16

14th 150:10 228:10

15 18:6 20:12 31:19

34:10 76:18 176:10

249:9 250:15 276:13

276:14 277:12,19

280:21 305:12 326:5

327:4 328:2 340:9

344:10 346:18 351:5

354:3 357:13 360:13

365:11 368:12 370:18

373:17 399:2 418:17

150 402:16

16 77:21 78:7

160 27:5

1600 474:5

17 210:21

177 254:9

177.5 254:9

1787 231:21

179 461:2

18 470:22

180 435:16 460:20

461:4

1807 471:15

1852 474:15

19 210:14

1975 67:18 518:14

1990 501:3

1995 32:19 33:13 34:5

155:20 472:11 517:8

1996 242:12

2

2 135:18 282:7 347:4

448:22 497:1,11

2,4-D 394:17

2,400 48:5,17

2.22 497:15

2.6 277:5

2.8 306:1

2:03 282:12

2:59 490:13

20 19:9 29:1 31:21

59:11 86:8 100:7

174:5 248:1 276:14

276:15,22 277:1,12

278:5 280:15 304:16

305:3,11,20 311:2

399:14 431:5 433:16

434:5,22 436:12

441:4 499:14 537:21

539:19 540:6

20,000 286:12 310:20

200 149:1

2000 142:15 472:21

2001 160:3

2002 158:1,7,17 246:8

443:8

2004 19:12 443:8

2005 99:16 156:7,14

158:16

2009 443:8

2010 53:18 60:9 61:2

65:19 91:6,12,21 93:4

99:16 354:16 358:12

428:10 429:14 430:17

445:5,11 447:5

449:18 453:9 454:2

487:14,15 489:10

490:6 534:5,8,8

535:13

2011 207:12 322:5

347:16

2012 335:19 351:14

2013 110:2 208:20

2014 443:8

2015 53:18 100:22

124:9 328:16 335:19

355:13 361:3,10

374:11

2016 135:17 155:15

335:19 400:3 428:18

429:9 443:8 460:18

461:4,14

2017 1:5,7 122:13

228:10 258:2,8

260:12 303:4,17

374:13,22

2018 113:6 292:1

2019 4:8 256:21 320:20

321:8

2022 365:9,11,17

205 30:5

205.105 106:3 450:15

451:3

205.2 335:14 339:9

205.202(b) 451:9

205.202B 104:12

205.203 126:1 400:5

406:15 451:18

205.203(a) 451:15

205.203(c) 417:10

205.203(c)(2) 405:6,21

205.209 104:9 450:12

450:19

205.600(b) 366:7

205.601 321:9 328:9

335:12 347:4 374:17

400:7

205.601(b) 334:7

205.601(e) 343:10

345:20

205.601(i) 349:3 350:8

205.601(j) 353:6 356:15

359:14 366:5 367:14

205.601(k)(2) 398:2

205.602 368:14,20

369:19 371:1 372:19

206 451:18

20s 284:4

20th 225:13 228:17

21 38:8 401:22

22 425:1 460:22

23 461:1

24 185:18 249:11

245 1:9

24d 48:3

25 72:3 135:21 233:10

234:5 305:18 393:17
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598

255 4:5,6

26 496:13

27 501:3

27th 470:1

28 69:11 461:2 490:13

3

3 207:13 340:22 347:12

351:10 449:1

3,000 253:2

3.5 180:20 305:19

30 18:16 19:5 31:21

36:9 49:14 69:19

162:3 254:12 284:8

309:15 402:3 435:19

436:5 497:10

30-ton 435:13

300 254:13 303:8

303 197:11

307B 197:8

30s 284:4

310 497:5

320 4:9

328 4:9

33 69:19

335 4:10

34 283:19 328:22

340 4:10

344 4:11

346 4:11,12

35 402:3

350 4:12

3500 135:14 306:3

354 4:13

357 4:14

360 4:15

361 4:15

370 4:16

374 4:17

38,000 475:18

399 4:18

4

4 4:1 76:22 417:14

449:4,6 461:14

4,000 48:2

4,260 254:8

4:15 418:18 419:7

4:25 418:19

4:29 419:8

40 19:2 73:17 216:7

284:8 309:16 351:19

391:6

40- 137:20 389:19

400 275:17 303:15

410 497:6

420 4:18

427 4:19

428 4:20

44 254:15

450 211:19

456 4:21

45th 67:17

46 328:21

47 173:6

48 19:11 313:19

4800 138:16

49 461:2

5

5 400:3 449:7

50 41:9 59:12 86:9

137:21 225:11 351:19

431:4 433:18 434:6

435:2 436:12 441:6

453:13 461:2 497:10

505:21 538:1 539:21

540:8

50/20 190:1,4

500,000 135:13 211:19

5006 403:8

5029 265:17

520th 513:19

53 484:7

542 4:22

55 69:12

6

6 358:2

6.5 150:5

6:20 519:14

6:43 542:7

60 69:15

60.8 252:3

605A 100:13,17 101:5

67 254:15

7

7 366:7 497:1,11

7's 313:14

7,000 210:17

7:00 247:19

70 80:16 216:6 303:13

700,000 305:20

72 240:13,13

73 460:19 461:3,6

462:15

75 305:22

76 240:12

8

8 360:22

8,000 173:21

8:30 1:9 542:1

8:34 5:2

80 174:2 435:15,21

800 485:19 513:9

82 498:7,9

9

9 344:16

90 36:15 149:3 270:22

410:2

90s 232:20

95 177:11 274:17 341:4

344:18 423:22

96 245:6
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

599

Fall 2017 Meeting

USDA/NOSB

11-01-17

Jacksonville, FL
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1

 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

 + + + + +

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

 + + + + +

 FALL 2017 MEETING

 + + + + +

 THURSDAY,

 NOVEMBER 2, 2017

 The Board met in Florida Ballrooms A, B & C

of the Omni Jacksonville Hotel, 245 Water Street,

Jacksonville, Florida at 8:30 a.m., Tom Chapman,

Chair, presiding.

PRESENT

TOM CHAPMAN, Chair

ASHLEY SWAFFAR, Vice Chair

JESSE BUIE, Secretary

SUE BAIRD

HARRIET BEHAR

ASA BRADMAN

A-DAE BRIONES

LISA DE LIMA

STEVE ELA

DAVE MORTENSEN

JOELLE MOSSO

EMILY OAKLEY

SCOTT RICE

DAN SEITZ

FRANCIS THICKE
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STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, NOSB Advisory Board

 Specialist, National Organic Program 

DR. LISA BRINES, Ph.D., National List Manager, 

 National Organic Program 

DR. PAUL LEWIS, Ph.D., Director, Standards

 Division, National Organic Program

DEVON PATTILLO, Materials Specialist, National 

 Organic Program 

DR. JENNIFER TUCKER, Ph.D., Associate Deputy 

 Administrator, National Organic Program; 

 Designated Federal Official
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3

 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Discussion document on field and greenhouse

container production . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8

Proposal on Eliminating the incentive to convert

native ecosystems to organic production. . . . . .23

Livestock Subcommittee

2019 Sunset Substances - review

Chlorhexidine. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .84

Chlorine materials (calcium hypochlorite,

chlorine dioxide, sodium hypochlorite) . . . . . .87

Glucose. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .90

Oxytocin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .92

Tolazoline . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .99

Copper sulfate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 103

Lidocaine. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 109

Procaine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 113

Proposal:

Sulfur - petitioned. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 124

Hypochlorous acid - petitioned . . . . . . . . . 135

Clarifying "emergency" for use of

synthetic parasiticides in organic livestock

production . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 141

Handling Subcommittee

2019 Sunset Substances - review

Attapulgite. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 147

Bentonite. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150

Diatomaceous earth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 152

Nitrogen . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 154

Sodium carbonate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 156

Acidified sodium chlorite. . . . . . . . . . . . 158

Carbon dioxide . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 160

Chlorine Materials (calcium hypochlorite,

chlorine dioxide, sodium hypochlorite) . . . . . 162

Magnesium chlorite . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 173

Potassium acid tartrate. . . . . . . . . . . . . 176

Sodium phosphates. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 178

Casings. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 191

Konjac flour . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 201
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Handling Subcommittee (cont.)

Pectin (non-amidated forms only) . . . . . . . . 210

Proposal:

Potassium acid tartrate reclassification . . . . 217

Discussion Document: Marine materials. . . . . . 219

Verbal Update:

Tocopherols - Annotation change at 205.605(b) of 

the National List. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 224

Tocopherols - Additional listing at 205.605(b) of 

the National List. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 224

Ancillary substances used in cellulose . . . . . 226

Materials Subcommittee

Proposal:

2017 Research Priorities . . . . . . . . . . . . 229

Excluded Methods Terminology . . . . . . . . . . 243

Discussion Document: Non-GMO Organic Seed

 Integrity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 261

Deferred proposals/Final Votes . . . . . . . . . 291

Subcommittee Work Agenda . . . . . . . . . . . . 292

Recognition of Outgoing Member . . . . . . . . . 318

Officer Elections. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 318

Other Business/Closing Remarks . . . . . . . . . 327

Adjourn. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 330
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5

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:33 a.m.

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Good morning,

4 everyone. We're going to come to order. 

5 So we'll begin this morning in a

6 moment, back with the Crops Committee onto the

7 CACS Committee, and then we'll continue on with

8 what's already listed on the Thursday portion of

9 the agenda. 

10 Before we get started, we had a fairly

11 important vote last night, and I just wanted to

12 take a moment and ask the program if they could

13 give some guidance on what they see as the next

14 steps?

15 DR. TUCKER: First, good morning,

16 everybody. Good to see everyone. 

17 So, first, the Agricultural Marketing

18 Service, the National Organic Program thanks the

19 Board for your really, really, very thoughtful

20 discussion on hydroponics, aquaponics, and

21 aeroponics. 

22 I really, truly appreciate your work
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6

1 on the topic. 

2 So just as a quick review, last night,

3 the Board passed a proposal to prohibit

4 aeroponics in organic production. 

5 The Board did not come to agreement on

6 the certification of hydroponics or aquaponic

7 production systems. 

8 So certification of all three types of

9 operations remains allowed while USDA considers

10 the Board's work on this topic. 

11 In terms of next steps, we'll share

12 the discussion that happened here back with our

13 leadership team, and then we'll come back to the

14 NOSB with their thoughts. 

15 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you. With

16 that, I'll hand it over to Francis to continue on

17 with the Crops Subcommittee. 

18 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Tom. We have

19 just two, I think relatively brief, items to do. 

20 The first is a discussion document on

21 field and greenhouse container production, and

22 Harriet is going to lead that discussion. 
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7

1 MS. BEHAR: Good morning. 

2 So there was this discussion document

3 to deal with specific areas where field and

4 greenhouse production is done in containers. 

5 We, unfortunately, did not get a lot

6 of public comment on this. 

7 However, we do have -- there was some

8 comment on the artificial light, but not a lot of

9 detail on why, more or less, or why different

10 spectrums. 

11 But we do have an open docket, so I

12 really do encourage people to take a look at that

13 discussion document again. 

14 We are going to move forward with

15 dealing with this issue, and perhaps, there might

16 be some more items that will come forward for

17 containers. 

18 Because we knew this was just a start,

19 depending on how the hydroponic vote went. 

20 So, now that we are living with more

21 containers, we'll be looking at container

22 production in a little bit more detail. 
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8

1 So I encourage you to look at those

2 questions again, and really do help us with these

3 specific issues, and if you have other issues

4 that you think we should address in container

5 production, to bring it to our attention. 

6 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Harriet. And

7 the last item for the Crops Subcommittee is --

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I had some

9 questions.

10 DR. THICKE: Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. 

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So, when I was

12 reading the public comment, it looked like there

13 was a discussion on artificial -- I mean I'm

14 struggling with this issue myself, to come to

15 terms with what direction to go on. 

16 Because some commenters mentioned

17 about using specific spectrums of light to

18 conserve energy, and other commenters talked

19 about using full spectrums to mimic sunlight as

20 closely as possible. 

21 I was just curious, of those who have

22 an opinion on the Board on this matter, if anyone
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9

1 has kind of a thought of, you know, it's being

2 pulled in two different directions?

3 MS. BEHAR: Well, yes, I guess I would

4 be interested in hearing from the rest of the --

5 but I felt that there was not, to me, enough kind

6 of background to help us weigh those different --

7 it was more I need this. 

8 But not how does it fit into a system.

9 That's what I'm kind of looking at more, because

10 we're looking at standards, perhaps, for a system

11 of production. 

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Dave has a comment.

13 MR. MORTENSEN: Harriet, now that this

14 is going to become more important, we will need

15 to spend a lot more time on lighting. 

16 And we will need to spend a lot more

17 time on thinking about the carbon footprint,

18 since it's very clear that we're moving in a

19 direction here, at least with these systems,

20 where we're looking at a very energy-intensive

21 production system. 

22 The lighting will matter a lot, the
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10

1 quality of lighting matters a lot, in terms of

2 the energy consumption. 

3 We just had a very interesting speaker

4 at Penn State this week, who's very excited about

5 growing food on Mars. 

6 He's been studying light quality and

7 energy efficiency because he's concerned that

8 we're going to run out of capacity to grow food

9 on Earth, because of our behavior. 

10 So I've got a ton of information about

11 light quality and light energy efficiency and

12 use, that will help inform this. 

13 I've spent a good bit of time

14 reviewing it over the last couple weeks. 

15 DR. THICKE: Lisa has a comment?

16 MS. DE LIMA: I agree with Tom. 

17 But also, taking a step further back

18 from that perspective and just asking about light

19 in general, not just what type of light, full

20 spectrum light, red or green -- blue, sorry --

21 but is lighting going to be allowed? 

22 To what degree? 
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11

1 We saw a lot of different slides and

2 pictures over the last few meetings, and I'm

3 definitely not comfortable with the warehouses

4 that only have artificial light and the plants

5 stacked. 

6 And we saw other speakers with

7 sunlight-lit hydroponic systems; I am comfortable

8 with those, so taking a step back and looking at

9 it from that perspective as well. 

10 DR. THICKE: Any other comments from

11 the Board? Emily?

12 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, I would echo Lisa's

13 comments that we should be discussing not

14 necessarily what kinds, but if any should be

15 allowed. 

16 So, I definitely have reservations

17 about any artificial light at all, probably not a

18 big surprise there. 

19 But we do have some information that

20 Zea left us with before she left the Board that

21 could be a good jumping-off point first. 

22 DR. THICKE: And I'd like to add that
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12

1 I think that we could look at the other

2 countries, like the European Union. 

3 What they're looking at, some

4 countries are suggesting that, light could be

5 used to maybe mimic natural daylight, only

6 natural daylight cycles. 

7 Joelle?

8 MS. MOSSO: I just want to echo,

9 basically, what Lisa and all of you have said, as

10 well as request that the public send what is

11 being used currently. 

12 I think that would be at least helpful

13 for us all to know what is being used. But I

14 definitely echo that it's a question of if, and

15 then if, what kind? 

16 DR. THICKE: Tom?

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: And then on the

18 other one, the synthetic mulches, one of the

19 comments that I found most relevant was, you

20 know, how if these standards would be set for in21 ground, not in an enclosure as well. 

22 So, that's I guess the other one to
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13

1 keep in mind and think about. 

2 I think most people on the disposal

3 are actually, from the comments I read, was

4 fairly uniform in agreement on how to approach

5 that one. 

6 MS. BEHAR: It's called field and

7 greenhouse container production. 

8 So that's the other -- of course,

9 artificial light out in the field, you're not

10 going to find that too much. 

11 But the question of specifically

12 should the use of artificial light be limited to

13 a specific number of hours per day, and there

14 were people who said zero. 

15 So there was the option there for no

16 artificial light, all up to whatever. 

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So when you say

18 field production, you mean full in the field and

19 in the ground, not in the container?

20 MS. BEHAR: No, I mean this is for

21 containers that are sitting on top of landscape -

22 -
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14

1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Some of the

2 comments said that the synthetic mulch

3 requirements, whatever they are when they get

4 rolled out for container production, should be

5 the same for in-the-ground production as well. 

6 MS. BEHAR: Yes, so it might be that

7 we might eventually do a rule change or have

8 something different because, currently, it says

9 synthetic mulches must be removed at the end of

10 the growing or harvest season. 

11 And so if someone's growing

12 blueberries and the mulch is under that, and they

13 don't remove those blueberries in the containers

14 for ten years, that mulch stays there for -- it's

15 not the end of the growing. 

16 It's the harvest season, right, that's

17 ten years. 

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, I understand

19 that's also a practice in field crops right now

20 as well, and orchards. 

21 MS. BEHAR: Yes, I agree. It should

22 be consistent. 
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15

1 DR. THICKE: Steve has a comment.

2 MR. ELA: Yes, that's been a dicey

3 one, lavender, perennial crops. 

4 I mean, we've gone around with

5 certifiers of whether you have to pull it back,

6 if you're using a more permanent, like a woven

7 shape cloth, and there were non-compliance

8 notices issued. 

9 The USDA got to deal with that. 

10 For the most part, I think they've

11 been resolved in favor of if it's a perennial

12 crop, you get to leave it on until the crop is

13 done, but for a fruit tree, it could be 20 years.

14 And honestly, that fabric is not in

15 good shape after that many years. So, there does

16 need to be a little more clarification on that. 

17 And just like they said, if you're in

18 a container, what is the end of production? 

19 Is it the end of when that container,

20 finally, is not used, or the crop in that

21 container is done? 

22 So there's some nuances that
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16

1 definitely need to be resolved in that. 

2 DR. SEITZ: I just wanted to add the

3 classic sort of answer that we have on this is it

4 depends. 

5 And when we go out and see different

6 sites, whether it's blueberries or lavender or

7 what have you, the inspector's looking at that

8 cloth, and they're seeing if it's degrading or

9 getting there. 

10 And that's a conversation with the

11 operation, but it is something considered. 

12 So again, important to consider for

13 all types of production. 

14 MS. BEHAR: And I believe in the

15 discussion document, there are some mitigation

16 measures for preventing quick breakdown, like

17 putting down wood chips or other mulches. 

18 Because there's more than just the

19 covering of the land. 

20 There could be runoff issues and

21 heating, and whatever. 

22 So there's a lot to look at in
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17

1 especially those longer, not the thin films, but

2 the woven cloths which can withstand multiple

3 years. 

4 DR. THICKE: Steve? 

5 MR. ELA: I have one other concern,

6 it's sort of related to that, but especially in

7 the container production, where we've heard

8 prunings being incorporated in the soil. 

9 I just have to say I'd like more

10 input, because if you're incorporating things in

11 the soil but your plant's not in the soil -- I

12 mean you're on a container, but you're

13 incorporating things in the soil -- you've got

14 kind of two different systems there that aren't

15 linked. 

16 And so if you're incorporating these

17 things in the soil, where is it going? And it

18 almost becomes then a nutrient sink that's not

19 being utilized. 

20 And so I see a disconnect, or if

21 you're going to cover crops in those oils in the

22 alleyways between containers, but that's not --
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18

1 you have a disconnect there. 

2 And I'd like to wrestle with that a

3 little more, because it doesn't totally make

4 sense to me. 

5 DR. THICKE: Any other comments? 

6 Okay, thank you. 

7 So we'll move on onto the next item,

8 which is an update on newspaper. 

9 We had looked at the possibility of an

10 annotation change, and Harriet's going to lead

11 that too. 

12 MS. BEHAR: I don't know if there's

13 anyone still on the Board from when -- were you

14 on the Board? Yes, okay. 

15 So, 2014 or 2015, the Board was

16 reviewing newspaper at sunset, and there was

17 discussion about the annotation, which had no

18 glossy or colored inks allowed, but then some of

19 those inks -- and there was new technologies that

20 maybe the annotation could be changed. 

21 So, we did get a Technical Review, and

22 we reviewed it, and it's true that some are more
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1 plant-based and are not as problematic, but

2 they're not as widely used as some of the others.

3 There's still a lot of carbon black

4 and other issues, but really, one of the main

5 issues is the stream, and that the newspaper is

6 all lumped together. 

7 And so it's really hard to change the

8 annotation when all of it is going to be --

9 you're not separating out the good players from

10 the bad players, or the good inks and the better11 quality glossy. 

12 So when it does come up for sunset, we

13 probably will not change the annotation, but we

14 really do appreciate getting the update through

15 the TR so we can keep monitoring that issue. 

16 DR. THICKE: I wanted to add that

17 another complication we talked about in our

18 Subcommittee is that nowadays, a lot of

19 newspapers are using colored ink on their regular

20 newspapers, even little hick town newspapers like

21 mine, the front page always has a colored picture

22 on it. 
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1 And so that complicates things. 

2 Emily?

3 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, to that point, I

4 think it actually raises the question of whether

5 the annotation is strict enough. 

6 So I don't think we would have any

7 regression in the annotation. 

8 I think the question is whether or not

9 we can adhere to the principles with the current

10 annotation. 

11 And if folks haven't read the TR, it's

12 definitely one that's worth looking at. 

13 MR. ELA: I would echo that. 

14 If anything, the discussion made me

15 think we should go the opposite way, if not

16 allowing more but allowing less, because of that

17 area. 

18 I mean, there's color inserts, there's

19 color -- you know, and you recycle the paper. 

20 You don't go to the recycling center

21 and recycle, oh, this add and that add, it's all

22 commingled. 
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1 I mean, it's pretty clear to me it's

2 actually probably a bigger issue than it used to

3 be. 

4 Even though industrially, we've moved

5 to more soy-based inks and things, there's enough

6 -- it's commingled now that it's an issue. 

7 DR. THICKE: Any other comments on

8 this issue? Harriet?

9 MS. BEHAR: So, when we do come up for

10 sunset, well, I guess we could just still discuss

11 if we wanted to change the annotation and make it

12 stricter. 

13 But if people can find newsprint, and

14 I go to my recycling center, and I really

15 appreciate the people who get the Wall Street

16 Journal, because there's no color in that. 

17 I'm always looking for that neighbor's

18 bundle of papers. I've actually even thought

19 about just asking them to give it to me directly. 

20 DR. THICKE: You mean you don't get

21 the Wall Street Journal?

22 MS. BEHAR: I don't get the Wall
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1 Street Journal, no. 

2 And actually, the organization I used

3 to work for, MOSES, when we went to color, we did

4 get quite a few farmers who wrote in and said,

5 now I can't mulch with your paper anymore. 

6 And we thought, well, that's true.

7 They gained knowledge, it was for their brain,

8 and then afterwards, it was for their gardens. 

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, thank you. 

10 Unless there are any other comments, I think

11 we're finished. You can take it, thank you. 

12 Thank you, Francis, and the Crop

13 Subcommittee. You guys had definitely a big

14 slate of work this last semester. 

15 Up next is the Compliance,

16 Accreditation, and Certification Subcommittee,

17 with Scott Rice as Chair. 

18 Scott, I will hand the Meeting over to

19 you.

20 MR. RICE: Thanks, Tom. 

21 The first topic we have on our agenda

22 here is a proposal for eliminating the incentive
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1 to convert native ecosystems to organic crop

2 production. 

3 Harriet Behar was the lead on that,

4 and I will pass it off to Harriet.

5 MS. BEHAR: Okay, so there was quite

6 a few really good comments. 

7 There has been, in the past, a

8 discussion about where we could really find a

9 place to put this. Where does the Organic Food

10 Production Act deal with this? 

11 If we were looking to do an extended

12 period of time, how do we justify that? 

13 We kind of used the section of the

14 Organic Food Production Act that says -- and

15 whatever else we find might be useful for us to

16 have in our regulation. 

17 But I think the robust public comment

18 on this issue -- and really, the vast majority of

19 it, I think I only saw one negative comment on

20 this -- was yes, we should do this, that this is

21 part of organic agriculture, that we are

22 protecting the very important ecosystems that
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1 give us so many services, not just in farming but

2 as humans on this planet. 

3 Caring about wildlife, caring about

4 just a diversity of plant life as well, and to

5 protect endangered and threatened species. 

6 So with that, I have to thank Jo Ann

7 Baumgartner and the Wild Farm Alliance. 

8 She really reached out to many people

9 in the community, and probably got even more

10 comments than we would have had, had she not done

11 her work on the ground. 

12 And so she does have very detailed

13 comments, and the vast majority of the commenters

14 referred back to her comments on changing the

15 definition and -- no, changing our wording in the

16 rule and adding a definition of what a native

17 ecosystem is. 

18 So I'm not sure if we want to discuss

19 some of her comments now, because I am going to

20 recommend that we send it back to Subcommittee.

21 I'll make that motion. 

22 MS. OAKLEY: I'll second.
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1 MS. BEHAR: So we can review more in

2 detail and work with the program, which we had

3 done before, to make sure that whatever we are

4 recommending, there is a possibility of

5 eventually having rulemaking. 

6 MR. RICE: Thanks, Harriet. Some

7 discussion, Emily?

8 MS. OAKLEY: I think that the public

9 comments revealed some weaknesses in our motion

10 wording that I don't think we intended. 

11 I think that there are definitely

12 loopholes that I didn't foresee, and I thought we

13 were trying to address them. 

14 Clearly we did not do that well, but

15 our intention was not for those loopholes to

16 exist, so I appreciate the work of others in

17 thinking that through better. 

18 And thank you, Jo Ann, for that work,

19 and also NatureServe. 

20 And I agree we probably do need to

21 define native ecosystem. We did discuss that

22 briefly in the Subcommittee. 
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1 We thought that the motion helped

2 define it, but I think it's clear that there's

3 enough confusion. 

4 I know there has also been some

5 concern over that step down from a native

6 ecosystem in areas that are recovering in the

7 period of time. 

8 So there's a little more controversy

9 in that area, so we need to address that as well.

10 But I think that concerns over how to enforce

11 this were actually generally pretty mild. 

12 And I think that people have expressed

13 an understanding that those concerns can be

14 overcome. 

15 So I hope we can take this back and

16 give it a little bit more work and incorporate

17 some of the public comments, or a lot of the

18 public comments that we have received. 

19 MR. RICE: Tom?

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, I still have

21 some concern around defining a native ecosystem,

22 and I remember, the strategy of the way we wrote
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1 our proposal was to avoid having to write

2 something in detail around it. 

3 It was somewhat being defined by the

4 practices that would have occurred on that land

5 before. 

6 I agree that with the public comment

7 that we received, we should send this back and

8 take it under further review. 

9 And also, some commenters pointed to

10 the IFOAM way of regulating it, and that seemed

11 like a fairly elegant way that we had struggled

12 with, to try to almost do a similar but different 

13 definition too. 

14 But one of the biggest concerns I had

15 was the request for inspectors to be able to go

16 out and identify these native ecosystems while

17 they're doing these inspections. 

18 And it seems like we ask a lot of our

19 inspectors, and that just, to me, seems a step

20 too far, from back in my certification days, to

21 expect them to be able to do that across the wide

22 range of ecosystems they may encounter. 
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1 And I know we have some folks on the

2 Board who do inspections, sorry to put you on the

3 spot, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on

4 it, or people who also still work in the

5 certification range. 

6 And I'm interested to hear your

7 thoughts on it as well.

8 MR. RICE: I'm happy to give some

9 thoughts. 

10 I kind of share that same concern.

11 While I think there was good support of this from

12 the certification community, that was probably

13 the primary concern with this, was that

14 verification step. 

15 And we've seen really great inroads on

16 adding biodiversity and natural resources to that

17 slate of things that inspectors are taking a look

18 at in the field. 

19 And we've seen some really good tools

20 via NRCS, and certainly, again, Wild Farm

21 Alliance. 

22 We had some good partnerships with
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1 certifiers on that, but we see a continual

2 addition of things for our inspectors to add to

3 their reports, what they're observing, and I

4 think that adds to the time and ultimately

5 expense. 

6 And it's certainly valuable in looking

7 at these things, but we may reach a point where

8 some ideas have been expressed to have perhaps an

9 inspection that focuses more specifically on the

10 biodiversity and natural resources, and in turn,

11 maybe these native ecosystems. 

12 And definitely looking at those more

13 specifically, but I think just looking for where

14 that technical assistance and training can come

15 from to help bolster that too. 

16 MS. BEHAR: I actually don't think

17 there's going to be that much on-site review,

18 because it's going to probably be more in the

19 application of the Organic System Plan, how long

20 it's been since it was tilled. 

21 And if they say, well, the land's

22 never been tilled, then it would put up a red
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1 flag. 

2 But let's say it had been tilled three

3 years ago for the first time, or something like

4 that, we won't really have a chance to look at

5 it. But we'll have to figure out had it been a

6 native ecosystem before it had been tilled? 

7 I don't think that the inspector -- I

8 mean, typically, the first inspection is during

9 the crop year of what you're going to certify. So

10 at that point, it would have already been

11 destroyed. 

12 So unless you have fringe or something

13 like that that you're looking at to try to judge

14 what might have been there, I don't think it's

15 going to be so much on site. 

16 But there are a lot of tools, both

17 internationally and domestically, for researching

18 what Regions have threatened species, what

19 Regions have intact native ecosystems and that

20 sort of thing. 

21 So, I think it's going to be somewhat

22 of choosing the right questions in an Organic
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1 System Plan, to then figure out which -- I think

2 99 percent of the applications, you're just going

3 to breeze through the Organic System Plan. 

4 And then there's going to be a one

5 percent that may take a little bit more review,

6 mostly online to see what could have been there

7 before.

8 MR. RICE: Thanks. We have Ashley,

9 then Emily, then Sue.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: So I think organic

11 inspectors are very bright people, but I do have

12 a little bit of worry about some different

13 Regions going into looking at the farms that I

14 inspect, going into Montana. 

15 What is that native ecosystem? 

16 It's a very different landscape than

17 Arkansas and the Midwest, and I think there will

18 need to be quite a bit of inspector training on

19 making those judgment calls on what that is. 

20 And so certifiers will have to work

21 with inspectors, definitely, on that. 

22 MR. RICE: Emily?
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1 MS. OAKLEY: I agree with Harriet, I

2 don't think this is probably going to be

3 something that all or that many inspectors

4 encounter on a very frequent basis. 

5 So I think there could be some cost6 benefit within certifying agencies in terms of

7 training, a few maybe more in depth in terms of

8 some of the native ecosystems around them, or

9 that they're expected to encounter. 

10 And I also think that a lot of this

11 will take place prior to the inspection, as

12 Harriet mentioned. 

13 So I think a lot of the ground

14 truthing would take place with the Organic System

15 Plan, and then afterwards. 

16 I also think it probably isn't, as I

17 said and has been documented before, a huge

18 percentage of operations. 

19 So I think while it may increase cost

20 in a few instances, I don't think it will be

21 widespread. 

22 I also just want to point out the NOP
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1 guidance on biodiversity, and there is an

2 expectation that certifiers and inspectors have a

3 knowledge of biodiversity that may not

4 necessarily equate into native ecosystem

5 knowledge. 

6 But I think there's a clear dovetail

7 there. 

8 MR. RICE: Sue?

9 MS. BAIRD: I remember one of my first

10 inspections when I went to Montana. And what I

11 said to them was how many cows per acre do you

12 run? 

13 And they laughed, of course, because

14 in Montana it was how many tens of acres do you

15 run per one cow. 

16 So I do think there will be a learning

17 curve for the inspectors if they go to other

18 areas. 

19 But on the other hand, I've inspected

20 for probably 23 years now, and I like new

21 challenges. I think that it will be, as Harriet

22 said, a lot of it will be how you design your
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1 System Plan? 

2 And how that review is done up front,

3 because we've been reminded many times, the

4 inspector is the eyes. 

5 It's the certifier who designs that

6 System Plan. We only verify to that System Plan.

7 That's our job as inspectors. 

8 So with training, I don't think that

9 it will be a problem. I think we're going to

10 make some mistakes, we may ask how many cows per

11 acre that first time, but we'll be educated. 

12 MR. RICE: Yes, I would just add that

13 responsibility will be on the certifier. 

14 And that, in turn, leads to having

15 consistent tools that we can be turning to, to

16 make these determinations in a consistent way. 

17 So definitely further need for

18 training all around on that. Harriet?

19 MS. BEHAR: And so I am thinking that

20 in the next proposal, there might be some

21 suggestions for what could be asked in the

22 Organic System Plan to kind of help the
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1 certifiers and the operators up front. 

2 Because this is a little bit kind of

3 new ground for us, and it's a native ecosystem

4 that we don't want to destroy. 

5 So I think giving some options; it may

6 not be, this is what you should do, but something

7 like this, will take a little bit of the fear,

8 both for the certifiers and the operators. 

9 And I'm always thinking about the

10 operator; when they read the Organic System Plan,

11 can they complete it? Is it practical? Does it

12 make sense to them? 

13 So I'm looking at it from that angle

14 too. 

15 MR. RICE: Dave?

16 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, I was struck by

17 Bob Noonan's comments yesterday, the farmer from

18 New Hampshire. 

19 And one of the things that has been

20 quite an eye-opener for me is the extent to which

21 regional variation exists across the country. I

22 knew that already. 
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1 But so the Northeast was all under ag

2 100 years ago, most of it, and a state like New

3 Hampshire, a lot of it is no longer in

4 cultivation. 

5 And they have an initiative underway

6 in the state to actually grow their own food in a

7 local regional context so that there's an

8 interest in exploring how that land is made

9 available to provide their own fruit and

10 vegetables. 

11 So I think as we go forward with the

12 proposal, I'm totally on board with the ecosystem

13 services and protecting the environment, but I

14 think it's entrusting to be sure that we keep in

15 mind the regional variation across the country,

16 and how land use plays out. 

17 MR. RICE: Sue, and then, I think,

18 Harriet, we're going to have to wrap this up

19 pretty quick here. 

20 MS. BAIRD: I totally agree with Dave.

21 We do need to be cognizant of regional

22 differences, and it brings to mind some of the
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1 native prairie grasses in Kansas and Nebraska

2 that have never been tilled or plowed. 

3 And yet they hay them and they use it. 

4 And because they do those kind of

5 cultural practices, they probably fall within

6 this criteria. 

7 And yet some people are protecting the

8 environment by using cultural practices. 

9 MS. BEHAR: So on my own farm, I

10 recently went through kind of an environmental

11 assessment, because I'm in an NRCS program. 

12 And I was supposed to put in some frog

13 ponds, because I love amphibians. 

14 And there are a lot of online

15 resources for determining -- I mean, they were

16 able to figure out -- gave them a map, gave them

17 the coordinates of where it was. 

18 And they could say, is this an area

19 where there's an ecosystem? 

20 Because they would not have allowed me

21 to come in and do those shallow scrapes, if there

22 would have been an issue. 
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1 So I think there's a lot of tools out

2 there to help us with that determination.

3 MR. RICE: Okay, one more from Emily.

4 Oh, no? Okay. 

5 All right, we have a motion on the

6 table. Are we ready for a vote?

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, I'll take it

8 from here, or maybe not because I don't have my

9 voting sheet open. 

10 All right, who are we starting with? 

11 MS. BEHAR: We're starting with Emily. 

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right. So, the

13 motion is to refer this proposal back to the

14 Subcommittee. 

15 The motion was made by Harriet and

16 seconded by Emily. 

17 A yes vote would refer this back to

18 the Subcommittee, a no vote would continue

19 discussion here. 

20 Voting will start with Emily. Sorry,

21 it's early in the morning for me still. Emily?

22 MS. OAKLEY: Yes. 
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1 DR. THICKE: Yes. 

2 MS. BRIONES: Yes. 

3 MS. DE LIMA: Yes. 

4 MR. BRADMAN: Yes. 

5 MS. MOSSO: Yes. 

6 MR. ELA: Yes. 

7 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes. 

8 MR. BUIE: Yes. 

9 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes. 

10 DR. SEITZ: Yes. 

11 MR. RICE: Yes. 

12 MS. BAIRD: Yes. 

13 MS. BEHAR: Yes. 

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes. 

15 15, yes; 0, no. The motion passes. Scott?

16 MR. RICE: Thanks, Tom. Next up on

17 our agenda is a proposal regarding excluded

18 operations in the supply chain. I'll bring that

19 one up here.

20 We started this discussion with the

21 intent to suggest a regulatory change to remove

22 exclusions; however, we received some
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1 encouragement from the program to look at this

2 using existing authority given there's not a real

3 friendly climate to additional regulation. 

4 However, at that time, we kind of

5 changed tack and explored ways to address those

6 excluded operations via strengthening of

7 guidance. 

8 About that same time, we saw this

9 fraudulent grain issue emerge. 

10 And as we finalized this proposal,

11 NOSB received, of course, a request from the

12 program to add the issue of oversight of imports

13 to our work plan. 

14 We considered the idea of tackling all

15 of that in one document; however, we pulled back

16 on that, and decided to continue as planned and

17 address the NOP's request as a separate issue,

18 which we'll be taking up very soon. 

19 And we then focused in this on the

20 definition of an exempt operation and the

21 requirements that must be met for an operation

22 to, indeed, be considered exempt. 
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1 And focusing on the aspect of

2 labeling, that to be exempt, that product must be

3 labeled as organic, include a certified organic

4 by-statement, and an ingredient list as

5 applicable. 

6 We found labeling a product or

7 containers to be required based on the text of

8 205.101(b)(1). 

9 Also, 303 requires packaged product

10 labels for organic to identify each ingredient

11 with organic, below an identifying statement, and

12 a certified organic by-statement to identify the

13 certifying agents, and certified handler of the

14 finished product.

15 Operations involved in the sale and

16 distribution of retail-labeled products would be

17 exempt if such products were already packed and

18 remained in the same packaging, and not further

19 processed or packaged. 

20 These non-retail containers must

21 comply with the requirements of 307 and retail22 labeled product must comply with 303. 
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1 In parts of this, we recognize an

2 interpretation of the regulation that's a little

3 different than what was held by the NOP and how

4 NOP has trained on this with certifiers. 

5 And in the developing this, we also

6 receive feedback, however, from the program that

7 the regulation supports this interpretation.

8 As we saw noted during public comment

9 yesterday, we understand NOP will be training on

10 this in February with certifiers, and look

11 forward to clarification and confirmation that

12 that's, indeed, the interpretation. 

13 We had a lot of really good public

14 input on this. 

15 And I also wanted to stress, in a lot

16 of that public comment, what we received was this

17 is excellent, we have some tweaks to language

18 here and there. But really, what we do want to

19 see is a regulatory change. 

20 And as we've also heard, this is just

21 one of a number of issues in this area. The

22 Accredited Certifiers Association is working on
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1 this issue. 

2 The IOIA, the International Organic

3 Inspectors Association, is offering a webinar to

4 address this, and OTA has touched on this to a

5 great deal with the Global Integrity Taskforce. 

6 And further, there's the proposed

7 Organic Farming and Consumer Protection Act, as

8 part of the Farm Bill, mandating NOP to close

9 regulatory loopholes by mandating that

10 uncertified entities, including ports, brokers,

11 importers, online auctions, become certified. 

12 So a lot of work in this, and again,

13 we've heard a lot of public comment supporting

14 the work. 

15 And we feel that we still want to move

16 forward on this document and have it for a vote

17 today because we feel it is important to put this

18 forward as the first step.

19 Briefly, in terms of comments, there

20 was some suggestion to adjust the language to

21 consider portions of operations, as is used in

22 the regulation, and that NOSB should work with
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1 NOP to see that the full implementation of

2 suggestions from the OIG report be addressed. 

3 And we did hear from several

4 commenters that exempt and excluded, which

5 bedevils a lot of us, was interchanged in the

6 document. 

7 And we feel that's something that

8 could be cleaned up as we move forward on this,

9 and that's something the NOP could address as a

10 minor adjustment. 

11 In terms of impacts, we heard that

12 generally, negative impact would be minimal, and

13 that those uncertified handlers and brokers out

14 there that come into certification would only

15 strengthen the supply chain.

16 In terms of economic impact, that

17 might come as a cost of certification, and then

18 pass through the price of goods. 

19 But again, leading to the greater

20 advantage that we are strengthening integrity.

21 And I think I will leave it at that.

22 That is a quick summary on that, but I wanted to
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1 open it up to discussion or offer to Tom, if you

2 had anything to add? 

3 As Tom was a huge asset on this and

4 put a lot of work into it, so much appreciated on

5 that front. 

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I think that was a

7 fairly good summary. I'll wait to see if there's

8 other questions. 

9 The one thing I just want to raise to

10 folks is I am planning to make an amendment

11 that's not significant -- that's not the right

12 term -- that's not significant, though, to

13 correct the exempt-excluded kind of confusion of

14 terms that we use in here, to just correct that

15 so when we do forward this onto the program, we

16 don't have that mixup. 

17 I'll do that after the discussion, if

18 there is any. Emily? 

19 MS. OAKLEY: I was just going to

20 suggest that you go ahead and make that motion

21 now; that might help the discussion. 

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. So all
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1 right, now I've got to think of how I'm going to

2 word this. 

3 I move to amend the proposal to

4 correct the word exempt where used incorrectly,

5 and replace it with excluded. 

6 MR. RICE: We have a motion on the

7 table.

8 MS. OAKLEY: I'll second. 

9 MR. RICE: Second from Emily.

10 Discussion?

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So, Ashley

12 whispered in my ear over here that we should

13 point it out it's used throughout the document in

14 I would say over a dozen places incorrectly. 

15 So, I don't want to go through every

16 page and point it out. It's quite clear where

17 it's used incorrectly. This was only about

18 excluded operations. 

19 So, we used exempt only in times when

20 we're talking about exempt operations not being a

21 part of what we were talking about. 

22 So, it's quite clear where we used it
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1 incorrectly, and so it was just to correct those

2 spots. 

3 All right, if there's no further

4 discussion, we'll move -- yes, Harriet?

5 MS. BEHAR: I support this.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So, we're going to

7 have two votes, although, we can have one vote

8 and more discussion if we want to. 

9 But the first vote is just on the

10 amendment to fix the wording. 

11 The motion was made by Tom and was

12 seconded by Emily. Voting will start with

13 Francis. 

14 A yes-vote is to accept the amendment,

15 and a no-vote is to reject it. Francis?

16 DR. THICKE: Yes. 

17 MS. BRIONES: Yes. 

18 MS. DE LIMA: Yes. 

19 MR. BRADMAN: Yes. 

20 MS. MOSSO: Yes. 

21 MR. ELA: Yes. 

22 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes. 
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1 MR. BUIE: Yes. 

2 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes. 

3 DR. SEITZ: Yes. 

4 MR. RICE: Yes. 

5 MS. BAIRD: Yes. 

6 MS. BEHAR: Yes. 

7 MS. OAKLEY: Yes. 

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes. 

9 15, yes; 0, no. The motion passes. 

10 MR. RICE: I'd ask for any further

11 discussion on this before we move to vote--

12 Harriet?

13 MS. BEHAR: I think this is a really

14 important first step. 

15 I think there's still more things that

16 we can do, but I'm sure the organic inspectors in

17 the room, and buyers and everyone, can speak to

18 the fact that there's been a very large loophole

19 for a long time, as far as in the audit trail. 

20 And it drove many of us who were

21 trying to follow an audit trail a little crazy

22 that there were these gaps. So, I'm hoping this
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1 will be a good first step to closing some of

2 those gaps. 

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, and I just

4 want to say as we worked on this, it became quite

5 clear that we worked on it, as Scott said, in the

6 mind of imports originally. 

7 And then we got the bigger import

8 issue, which is definitely more than just this.

9 And then as we were digging into this, this

10 became more than just imports and this. 

11 Especially from the comments from

12 Organic Produce Wholesalers Group, there's

13 clearly concerns on the produce side as well that

14 aren't being addressed, in addition to other

15 concerns that were raised up. 

16 So, additional work is needed on

17 excluded operations, I agree with that. 

18 I'm also aware of proposed legislative

19 changes that may impact OFPA, which would then

20 also direct the program to further restrict this

21 section of the regulations, although, you know,

22 it's just proposed legislation at this point, and
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1 it's not rule. 

2 So, I struggle with how quickly we go

3 after next steps. 

4 Imports are on our agenda, and this is

5 still somewhat related to imports, so in that

6 regard, we're still going to be talking about it.

7 But do we want to pick up work, do we want

8 to request to continue to work on excluded

9 operations right away? 

10 Or do we kind of want to wait to see

11 what the legislative fix is, since that may

12 empower us in the Department to move forward with

13 regulatory changes in a non-regulatory change

14 environment? 

15 And I see the program raising their

16 hand, but Scott's in charge. 

17 DR. TUCKER: Hi, good morning. The

18 program would encourage the Board to continue to

19 work on this topic. 

20 The Secretary has indicated a lot of

21 interest in enforcement, in strengthening

22 enforcement with imports. 
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1 This is part of that puzzle, and so we

2 would encourage the Board to continue to work on

3 it. 

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So, some of the

5 comments that I was mentioning were related to

6 the produce industry. 

7 We're definitely still working on

8 imports. That's a separate Work Agenda Item that

9 we have yet to dive into in detail. 

10 But a lot of the produce industry

11 comments, while also relevant in an international

12 import situation, are also relevant within a

13 domestic supply chain situation as well. 

14 And so we're still encouraged to work

15 on that activity.

16 DR. TUCKER: So, the Department's

17 interest in enforcement is not just about

18 imports. It's also about the entire supply chain

19 domestically and internationally. 

20 So, we think this is an important

21 topic and despite anything else that has

22 happening, your perspective on this is very, very
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1 valuable. 

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Excellent, that's

3 good to hear. I know the program cares about

4 enforcement, and that's kind of a silly thing

5 that has to be said. 

6 But it's quite clear what you guys do,

7 and it's good to see that we're all very aligned

8 in the direction on this. 

9 DR. TUCKER: And thank you for the

10 work you've done on this so far. 

11 MR. RICE: Francis? 

12 DR. THICKE: I thank you too for the

13 work you've done, and I wanted to urge you to

14 keep working on it, and NOP also too. 

15 And I wanted to add a personal

16 anecdote, because this is really hurting organic

17 crop farmers. 

18 In the Midwest, we really see it, and

19 I'll give you a personal anecdote. 

20 About two years ago, I bought a couple

21 hundred acres of land that set me back $1.2

22 million, with a $90,000 a year payment, projected
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1 on the prices of organic crops at that time, and

2 crops took a big steep fall. 

3 In the first year, I lost $50,000 on

4 that crop compared to what I had anticipated,

5 which makes a big problem for me trying to keep

6 that debt serviced. 

7 And then to buy the equipment, I

8 needed to make it work. 

9 So, this is something that's really

10 affecting crop farmers out there, so we need to

11 move as fast as we can to shutter this hole. 

12 MR. MORTENSEN: The other way that

13 it's affecting it, Francis, is that it's having a

14 profound effect, at least I know in our Region,

15 on farmers transitioning to organic. 

16 There's a huge demand for corn grain

17 and other grains for the poultry industry, for

18 example, and if we're going to meet that demand

19 by taking grain from overseas, then the farmers

20 perceive that the scrutiny on the grain is not

21 high. 

22 And it's killing interest in meeting
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1 the demand locally, and so I really support what

2 you're saying.

3 MR. RICE: Sue?

4 MS. BAIRD: I came, in another life,

5 from a Managing and Feeding seed program through

6 the Department of Ag., and when I first came into

7 the organic circle, which was in 2000 -- and so

8 they did the training and we did all that. 

9 And Bob Pooler then was in charge, and

10 I went up to him and I said, are you telling me

11 that grain brokers are exempted? And he said

12 yes. 

13 And I said, I can't believe that,

14 that's where this hole's always at. 

15 This has been a hole forever and I am

16 thrilled that we are finally trying to address

17 it. So, yes, let's move forward. 

18 MR. RICE: Are we ready to -- or did

19 we get the motion up? I lost track now. 

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, unless there's

21 further discussion we can move to the vote.

22 MR. RICE: Okay. 
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right, so the

2 motion is to approve the proposal as amended on

3 excluded operations in the supply chain. 

4 The motion was made by Tom and was

5 seconded by Harriet. Voting will start with A6 Dae. A yes-vote is to accept the proposal, a no7 vote is to reject. 

8 MS. BRIONES: Yes. 

9 MS. DE LIMA: Yes. 

10 MR. BRADMAN: Yes. 

11 MS. MOSSO: Yes. 

12 MR. ELA: Yes. 

13 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes. 

14 MR. BUIE: Yes. 

15 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes. 

16 DR. SEITZ: Yes. 

17 MR. RICE: Yes. 

18 MS. BAIRD: Yes. 

19 MS. BEHAR: Yes. 

20 MS. OAKLEY: Yes. 

21 DR. THICKE: Yes. 

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes. 
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1 15, yes; 0, no. The proposal passes. 

2 MR. RICE: We have on the agenda

3 preliminary discussion on imports. 

4 I would say that I would put a check

5 mark next to that in the interest of maybe

6 getting us back on time. 

7 So, unless there are further thoughts

8 on that at this time --

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I'm not so worried

10 about time, so if people had some thoughts on

11 this, I'd love to get just -- you know, we had

12 the folks here from the Federal Agency. 

13 This is going to go back to the CACS.

14 CACS is somewhat a smaller Committee. 

15 So, I mean, it would be great if there

16 were some other initial thoughts from other Board

17 Members to get that out there now so we could

18 direct our work appropriately. 

19 MR. RICE: Okay, Dan, then Dave, and

20 Harriet.

21 DR. SEITZ: This is just a question.

22 I'm curious to know what role, if any, testing
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1 can play when there's a suspect shipment of grain

2 or some other product? 

3 So, this is a clarifying question. Is

4 there authority to do that? 

5 And are there tests that can be useful

6 in addition to tracking the documentation from

7 person to person, or company to company?

8 MR. RICE: I can answer that too. 

9 Yes, the simple answer is testing can be used.

10 And it's not the only tool that we have, but it's

11 certainly one that we can draw on. 

12 And that's something that, in the

13 certification world, is done on a risk basis, on

14 random, and in reaction to, in response to, known

15 issues. 

16 And in terms of tracking, we heard

17 from the Panel and from other commenters a number

18 of technologies that are out there. 

19 They're not going to be here tomorrow,

20 but it's certainly working towards something that

21 -- technology is a constraint at this point. 

22 Tom, did you have a response to that?
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, I think

2 there's situations where testing is very useful

3 in detecting fraud, and there's other situations

4 where it's not going to tell you anything at all.

5 I was just talking to someone last

6 night about an imported sweetener product that

7 was so highly processed, it wouldn't show

8 anything. 

9 But they were testing it for

10 pesticides, which, you know, is good due

11 diligence. I'm not trying to discourage that from

12 happening, but it's not going to reveal what

13 you're looking for in that situation. 

14 So, it doesn't work in every

15 situation. 

16 MR. RICE: Thanks. Okay, we've got

17 Dave and Harriet?

18 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, so I guess I had

19 a couple of thoughts. 

20 One is that over the last year, when

21 the issue of the grain imports would come up, I

22 didn't feel as though we were having enough open
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1 discussion and frank communication between NOP

2 and the NOSB on what was going on. 

3 We raised this a number of times on

4 the phone during our conversations, and I don't

5 think we're having enough dialog, enough

6 throughput of open communication. 

7 So, I guess I would like to just have

8 a discussion, or at least just have it be known

9 that I think we could do better there. That's

10 one point. 

11 The second thing that I came away from

12 the morning presentation with was that, and I

13 have this funny way of expressing myself, and

14 pardon me when I ask silly things like have we

15 run a mental sensitivity analysis on this? 

16 What I mean by that is have we been

17 able to figure out if something is accounting for

18 99 percent of the problem, let's not focus on the

19 other 93 things that account for 1 percent of the

20 problem. 

21 Because we have limited time and

22 resources, that's all. 
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1 And so I'm not convinced that a system

2 alone -- that to me looks like 70 percent of the

3 problem, or maybe it's 60 percent of the problem.

4 The other problem is that U.S. exports

5 of organic goods have been flat over the last

6 four years, about $500 million give or take, $100

7 million. 

8 At the same time, in the same

9 interval, imports of organic goods have tripled

10 from about equal five years ago, export-import

11 about equal, to now $1.65 billion imports, three

12 times what it was four or five years ago. 

13 I asked our speakers in the break

14 period, because they answered we'll have a better

15 tracking system, problem solved. They didn't

16 really say problem solved. So, I have a tendency

17 to overstate. 

18 They said we'll have a better tracking

19 system, implying that would solve the problem.

20 I'm not convinced. 

21 I think, and I asked one speaker in

22 particular, I said what happens when you have a
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1 three-fold increase in magnitude of stuff coming

2 in? 

3 Because I know what the problem is on

4 the pest side, because I've worked with APHIS at

5 the port of entry on pest entry. And they said

6 it's huge. 

7 You're dealing with a different

8 gorilla when you have that much stuff coming in. 

9 You've got to have a lot more people

10 on the ground, you have to have a much more

11 rigorous system at the port of entry, you have to

12 have people on the ground on the end where it's

13 being produced. You have to have people here.

14 And so I don't feel like we're really getting at

15 the problem. 

16 And so as a Board, I guess I just ask,

17 it seems to me that we are setting the rules but

18 we're not having a sense for whether we're in the

19 ballpark of following them, in this case. That's

20 my concern. 

21 MR. RICE: Harriet?

22 MS. BEHAR: So, I think this issue,
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1 especially of fraudulent imported grain but it's

2 also in other areas too, where the regulations

3 have not been followed, that trust is really all

4 we have. 

5 Integrity is all we have. And that

6 imported fraudulent, quote, unquote, organic

7 grain affects not just the grain-growers. 

8 The consumers will wonder, well, are

9 my organic eggs really produced by chickens that

10 were fed organic feed? 

11 Is my organic milk really organic? Is

12 my organic coffee, my organic bananas? I mean,

13 it affects everything, all the way down the

14 chain. 

15 So, it's not just the grain-growers,

16 really, that I'm concerned about. 

17 They're the first in line, the

18 canaries and the coal mine, but it's the entire

19 organic label and it's everyone. It's the

20 retailers, it's the distributors, it's everyone

21 who could be affected. 

22 And in the end, it's the consumers
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1 because we're trying to give them organic food.

2 And so I think this is just a very important area

3 that we really do pay attention to. 

4 And I think, too, it was really

5 valuable for me to have that Panel, so I have a

6 better understanding of what happens at port of

7 entry. 

8 But there's even things that happen

9 here that we should be having more input on, like

10 fumigation and then tracking what loads might

11 have been fumigated. 

12 And that's something that too could

13 have been an actual organic product coming in,

14 but then lost its organic status on our soil. 

15 So, a very important area and I intend

16 to remain engaged.

17 MR. RICE: Tom, and then Lisa?

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I thought Emily had

19 her hand up. I wanted to say something building

20 on what Harriet said, and I want to say something

21 to build and respond to what she said. 

22 And then since the conversations we
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1 had as a Board and on the Executive and some

2 other places, I also attended a session at Expo

3 East, where Betsy and Miles, before he retired,

4 were both there. 

5 And it was around enforcement and

6 there's clearly -- we feel we have a special

7 relationship with the program given how we advise

8 them, but everything given to us is also still a

9 public document. 

10 And during enforcement procedures --

11 and maybe I'm going to pause here briefly and

12 hand it over to the program to talk a little bit

13 about enforcement. 

14 But in order to build that case, they

15 need to maintain some level of confidentiality

16 while that case is being built and brought. 

17 And I think that's where we have this

18 constant unease of is enforcement activity

19 occurring? 

20 And then I gave these complaints or am 

21 aware of these complaints, where are they at in

22 the process, in the programs, going through their
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1 procedures and what they need to do. 

2 If you do go -- and related to a lot

3 of these grain issues that we're speaking about,

4 there is some public information now available on

5 the Web because of either appeals or enforcement

6 actions that were carried out. 

7 And the program can maybe speak a

8 little bit to that. 

9 But I'd really like to hand it over to

10 you guys really briefly just to talk about that,

11 enforcement, what you can share, when you can

12 share, why you can't share more. 

13 DR. TUCKER: Okay, so the

14 investigations are ongoing and this is a key

15 priority for us. 

16 As you've noted, and I shared the link

17 yesterday, the NOP update slides, if you go to

18 the AMS website and you search on NOP

19 enforcement, you're going to get to a page, and

20 you can see when the program and the Agency

21 issues a final suspension or revocation. 

22 They are now posted on that site. And
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1 that's new. So, final revocations, final

2 suspensions are posted on that site. 

3 If there is an appeal of a proposed

4 notice, then a decision or a settlement is

5 reached on that, those are also posted. 

6 Now, even when an administrator's

7 decision is posted denying an appeal, the

8 appellant does have a chance to request a

9 Hearing. 

10 We do post the administrator's

11 decision but we also do note that a Hearing has

12 been requested. 

13 So, we have issued Directives to

14 certifiers that are operating in the Region of

15 concern to do increased testing, to do increased

16 reporting. 

17 I think as I mentioned yesterday, the

18 organic industry has been growing very, very

19 quickly. And that requires everybody in the

20 system to make adjustments. 

21 So, I think certifiers are coming to

22 terms with what does this mean in terms of how
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1 they oversee operations in that area. 

2 They are looking at, well, how are we

3 doing traceback and mass balance audits? 

4 We are emphasizing that with

5 certifiers; that's why we had training this

6 summer on those topics. We'll continue to have

7 training, particularly our face-to-face training,

8 over the winter.

9 We are increasing our certifier audits

10 in that area, but I think, again, the entire

11 system is adjusting to this new reality that is a

12 response to very rapid growth in the industry. 

13 So, we can't share the details of

14 specific investigations as they're going on, but

15 you can keep an eye on that website for those

16 final actions. 

17 The other link on that page that we've

18 added is you can, with one click, get a list of

19 every single suspended and revoked operation. 

20 And if you do a filter, you can do

21 that by country, you can do that by certifier.

22 So, we don't post all the final suspensions and
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1 revocations that certifiers issue, but they are

2 issuing them. 

3 And so if you do do a search by

4 country, by certifier, you can see what they're

5 doing as well. So, that's the level of reporting

6 that right now is happening on the site. Again, I

7 can't emphasize enough how important this is to

8 us. 

9 I think the OIG audit is incredibly

10 important in framing a roadmap for next steps. I

11 totally agree that it's not just the

12 documentation, it's not just the systems, it is

13 the boots on the ground. 

14 It is the certifiers out there, it's

15 NOP with the certifiers, all incredibly important

16 activities.

17 Did that help?

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, I think -- do

19 you want to add something? Because I have

20 something else after this but it's unrelated. 

21 MR. MORTENSEN: Part of this is that

22 for me it's helpful that we have a dialog, so I'm
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1 not trying to be a bugger about it. 

2 But Jenny, one of the things that I

3 think is important in a process is that we all

4 take action when we're responsible. 

5 And actions are laudable. Thank you.

6 But we also need to see the impact of the action

7 as a Board. 

8 We need to know that this action or

9 this suite of actions improved the outcome. And

10 I think for me, that's a place where I just don't

11 feel like I have a sense for what the outcomes

12 are. 

13 And honestly, linking to one specific

14 action that's been taken, and this is just a

15 process point, is not going to inform my

16 understanding of how the system is behaving. 

17 It will tell me this one action was

18 resolved in Court by X, Y, Z, but it doesn't

19 bolster my confidence or my insight as a Board

20 Member in understanding whether we're doing

21 better or not, when I know that I'm the

22 scientist. 
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1 I'm also a person tightly connected

2 with organic farmers in my Region and I'm hearing

3 them tell me that they can't get into what they

4 want to do because of this problem. 

5 And I can't really say anything

6 intelligent to help them understand that we're

7 doing better or not right now. 

8 That's my concern. 

9 So, it's outcomes, impact and

10 outcomes. 

11 If we could figure out how we do a

12 better job of communicating those so that the

13 Board can sort of get a sense for whether we're

14 moving up or flat, we're going backwards. 

15 DR. TUCKER: Can I respond to that?

16 MR. MORTENSEN: I'm finished. 

17 DR. TUCKER: Okay, so I totally agree

18 that both process and outcome is important.

19 There will be system-level actions

20 like we learned about yesterday, and so there are

21 system levels that raise the capability across

22 the entire system at all levels, so at NOP,
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1 certifiers, certified handlers, knowing what to

2 look at. 

3 So, there will be actions at all of

4 those levels, and those are still being defined

5 and are underway. 

6 And I would say that the system does

7 also improve one action at a time, that there are

8 operations that are no longer certified, that we

9 have actors that are no longer in the system. 

10 And compliance is our number one goal,

11 and so if we can get actors -- one revocation

12 matters and one suspension matters because it is

13 getting an actor out of the system, that should

14 not be there. 

15 Again, as I mentioned yesterday, these

16 are very sophisticated actors. Many of them have

17 actually worked in the industry, they know how it

18 works. 

19 They know how the paperwork flows,

20 they know how to mark up documents, they know how

21 things move between countries in a very complex

22 system. 
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1 And we are working with some very,

2 very sophisticated players out there. 

3 And so we're going to continue to

4 learn how they are working, and then try and get

5 ahead of them with system-wide improvements. 

6 But it will take time and it will take

7 everyone. I can't emphasize that enough.

8 MR. RICE: Okay, Tom and then Lisa's

9 been waiting too.

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, I had more

11 before we got into that back and forth. So, the

12 response is something that David asked about. 

13 Is there one item that can account for

14 90 percent? 

15 As far as I've spent time on this,

16 unfortunately, I don't think there is one item

17 that can carve out 90 percent of it. 

18 There's going to be a lot of actions

19 needed in a lot of different ways. 

20 Supply chains are very diverse and

21 they offer a lot of opportunities for fraud, and

22 this is an issue that is acute in the organic
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1 industry but also extends far beyond it. 

2 Something that comes to mind was a

3 honey-laundering case, where they were shipping

4 honey that was from illegal imports that resulted

5 in FBI actions and a lot of arrests

6 internationally. 

7 But this happens in every commodity in

8 a lot of different ways. Or we see a lot of

9 allergens that get disclosed in spices because

10 they've been adulterated. 

11 So, fraud and food is an issue that's

12 acute to organic, but it's also quite larger than

13 that, and unfortunately, there's just dozens of

14 ways to approach it. 

15 So, I think we're going to have to

16 take a good look at the supply chains and try to

17 re-look at how it is and determine best ways to

18 further mitigate that down. 

19 Some of those might account for big

20 portions of it, some of them might account for

21 small portions of it. 

22 We did get a lot of good comment from
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1 OFARM, from Organic Gross Working Group, from

2 OTA, and then OTA has a Working Group out there,

3 and ACA has a Working Group on this. 

4 We're getting a lot of good ideas and

5 we need to start putting them together in a

6 comprehensive plan to start addressing this. 

7 The last point I want to make, which

8 is really probably going to just be a preview to

9 a request from the Subcommittee, but as we're

10 digging into this, and as I was thinking about

11 excluded operations before, really, we're looking

12 at imports, but it's really supply chain

13 integrity. 

14 It was given to us as imports but

15 this, while it might be acute and acknowledge

16 that it's an international problem, there's no

17 reason why it couldn't be a domestic problem as

18 well. 

19 Domestic, we have probably the easier

20 enforcement authority, but it's still an issue

21 present there. 

22 So, it might make sense for us to
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1 revise the work, still focusing on imports but

2 maybe call it import and supply chain integrity,

3 and then continue the work on that. 

4 That's all I had to say. That's all. 

5 MR. RICE: I got Lisa and then

6 Harriet.

7 MS. DE LIMA: So, I appreciate what

8 Harriet brought up as far as how this impacts the

9 consumer and the questions this raises in their

10 minds. 

11 And I want to give you guys a

12 perspective on how this impacts the retailer. 

13 So, just to give you one example, we

14 got an email from a customer last week, and she

15 was demanding to know what we, as MOM's Organic

16 Market and Retailer, were doing to ensure that

17 the organic product that we're selling is

18 organic. 

19 I mean, so, take a minute to think

20 about that, and that's crazy because we're not

21 doing anything to ensure that organic is an

22 organic. 
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1 We have a lot of standards in place

2 and a lot of affidavits in place that we use for

3 product that isn't certified organic. 

4 So, an example would be we sell a fair

5 amount of local pastured meat, and we go and

6 visit the sites and put them through a lengthy

7 affidavit process, asking them about feed and

8 animal welfare and the whole bit. 

9 But that's because the product isn't

10 certified organic. 

11 When it's certified organic, we're

12 going on that trust as well as a retailer, but

13 when we start to have customers asking questions

14 like that, to me, that's a real big problem. 

15 And there might be things that organic

16 doesn't address, like porches for eggs, and

17 that's something we do address, but that's when

18 the organic standard isn't addressing something. 

19 We will go in and set our own standard

20 and ask the question, but just a general

21 question, like what are you doing to ensure that

22 your organic bread is organic because of the
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1 grain? 

2 It's a whole different ball game.

3 MR. RICE: Harriet?

4 MS. BEHAR: This is directed to the

5 NOP. We've passed this proposal and so I know

6 that economic impact is always something you have

7 to address. 

8 And so I would like to highly

9 encourage you to consider the negative economic

10 impact if it does not get put in place, that the

11 integrity of the organic label is of paramount

12 importance. 

13 And so closing the loopholes in the

14 supply chain audit trail is super important. 

15 So, when you ENO and you are

16 presenting to whoever looks at the ENO,

17 understand all the layers you have to go through,

18 but to please point out that -- usually, it's

19 when you put something in the negative effect

20 that it could have. 

21 Well, let's talk about the positive

22 effect and that if it doesn't get put into
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1 guidance, how that could have a negative economic

2 impact. 

3 DR. TUCKER: Yes, great point. When

4 the Department engages in any kind of rulemaking,

5 I'll be sort of abstract about this, it looks at

6 both quantitative benefits and quantitative

7 costs. 

8 And so I think, certainly, market

9 growth is a quantitative indicator. 

10 But I think if there are other types

11 of quantitative indicators that can help both

12 assess cost and benefit, benefits are always sort

13 of hard to quantify for the Government. 

14 And so if there are ways of thinking

15 about benefits in addition to cost in

16 quantitative ways, that always helps strengthen

17 the argument. 

18 And that's just a general generic

19 comment about the rulemaking in general, not this

20 in this particular. 

21 Again, the administration is very

22 interested in this issue and is supportive of
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1 initiatives that will move that work forward.

2 MR. RICE: Emily?

3 MS. OAKLEY: I wanted to echo what

4 Lisa and Harriet have said because trust is such

5 a big factor in organics, both within what the

6 farmers are doing and the consumer's trust of us.

7 And there's a wide range of consumers as we

8 all know, but there's the emerging organic

9 consumer, the person who buys a couple of things

10 or every once in a while and is looking for

11 reasons to believe further in the label. 

12 And these are the types of issues that

13 undercut their trust in the label and then become

14 a reason to not become full-fledged organic

15 consumers. 

16 MR. RICE: I just wanted to add, also

17 on the theme of communication of what's going on

18 and how we can keep that line of communication

19 going, there's been much greater communication

20 amongst certifiers and certainly with the

21 program. 

22 But we've got the ability for us, as
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1 certifiers, to share information or communicate

2 with each other on various issues, and that has

3 greatly improved in the time that I've been

4 involved in this. 

5 So, that's further adding some

6 strength to this. 

7 And further comments? Tom?

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, I've got one

9 last one. 

10 I do remember questions during the

11 import panel about the responsibility of buying

12 operations, and I work for a probably small in

13 the size of CPG company, consumer product goods

14 companies, but large in the realm of organic

15 consumer product good companies. 

16 And in my role at Cliff Bar, I am in

17 charge of the ingredient sourcing Department, and

18 we take integrity very important. It's top of

19 mind, it's top of sourcing. 

20 We pay a premium for organic

21 ingredients and we expect that our supply chain

22 is complying with the applicable requirements of
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1 what we're paying for. 

2 If there's fraud in our supply chain,

3 then I'm outraged by any plan to take appropriate

4 action. 

5 And I think we've seen that also in

6 comments from people like the Organic Produce

7 Wholesalers Group and what they go through when

8 they try to determine compliance of an operation

9 and lost sales, potentially, from doing the right

10 steps. 

11 I think there's a lot of really good

12 actors out there in the handling community that

13 are doing the right things. 

14 Unfortunately, fraudulent actors are

15 fraudulent actors and they're not going to be

16 here at the table. 

17 They're not the ones here, so we're

18 going to have to find ways to bring them in even

19 if they're not here. 

20 We need to bring the pain to the

21 people who aren't coming to the table to help us

22 solve this problem. 
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1 And I'm not saying that we don't have

2 more actions in that, we definitely do, and we

3 have a role in bringing the pain to those people

4 to get the enforcement and integrity back where

5 it's at. 

6 Unfortunately, a lot of the imports

7 that I saw coming in from the enforcement actions

8 looked like feed grade, and so that spreads out

9 probably a lot of small farmers unfortunately. 

10 And it gets eaten by cows, and if

11 you're buying the dairy products, it's going to

12 be really hard to track something like that, even

13 though it might be in someone's supply chain. 

14 And that's just an example of how

15 difficult this can be at different stages of the

16 supply chain of how the fraud can get into a

17 system. 

18 But it doesn't at all take away from

19 how important this is and how we need to tackle

20 it right away. 

21 DR. TUCKER: If I can just add one

22 other thing that does -- your statement right
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1 there. 

2 When I say all levels, we're talking

3 about processers, we're talking about certifiers,

4 we're talking about USDA, all levels have a role

5 here. 

6 So, thank you for making that comment. 

7 MR. RICE: Thanks everyone, I'm glad

8 we did have the time to have this conversation

9 and good to really get the input and feedback

10 from the program. 

11 It's much appreciated. That wraps up

12 the business of the CACS Subcommittee and we'll

13 turn it back to Tom.

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Scott. 

15 My agenda says it's time for a recess and free

16 beer with Marty.

17 (Laughter.) 

18 It's 10:00 a.m. It's the livestock,

19 can we get started on the livestock or should we

20 take a recess? Want to take a break? 

21 Let's get started with the livestock

22 first. Maybe we'll get through the sunset and
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1 we'll see how long it takes. 

2 That was a joke because of the agenda.

3 Sorry, my jokes aren't that funny. That was the

4 end Wednesday right there. 

5 So, it's now Thursday morning, 8:30

6 a.m., and we're going to move onto the Livestock

7 Subcommittee. And I'm going to hand it over to

8 Ashley Swaffar, the Chair. 

9 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay, we're going to try

10 to make some time up in livestock. So, let's

11 start off and jump right into Sunset 2017. 

12 Dr. Brines?

13 DR. BRINES: All right, thank you. 

14 As we start the livestock sunset

15 materials, we're at section 205603 of the

16 National List, synthetic substances allowed for

17 use in organic livestock production. 

18 The first substance on the agenda is

19 chlorhexidine or chlorhexidine. 

20 It appears under paragraph as

21 disinfectants, sanitizer, and medical treatments

22 as applicable. 
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1 And the listing is chlorhexidine

2 allowed for surgical procedures conducted by a

3 veterinarian, allowed for uses of teat dip when

4 alternative germicidal agents and or physical

5 barriers have lost their effectiveness. 

6 And the most recent technical report

7 was completed in 2015. Thanks.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Dr. Brines.

9 Harriet?

10 MS. BEHAR: So, numerous certification

11 agencies noted that this is an important material

12 for organic livestock production. 

13 There was a checklist that went around

14 and there were a lot of individual farmers who

15 also checked wanting this product to be relisted.

16 It's very useful as the active

17 disinfected in a teat dip, especially in cold

18 temperatures, and coming from Wisconsin and doing

19 inspections in Minnesota, I can say that many

20 farmers really prefer this, especially in the

21 cold months, to iodine as a teat dip. 

22 The use of it in surgical procedures
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1 is absolutely essential. And even though one

2 public interest group did note that there were

3 less toxic alternatives such as vinegar or

4 lavender oil, or others, this is readily

5 available and is approved for use in livestock

6 production. 

7 So, the Subcommittee voted to relist

8 this material for the specific functions in the

9 annotation and the vote was 7-2, no, to not

10 relist. And zero to take it off the list. 

11 Did I say that right? I had many

12 negatives in there.

13 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Harriet. Is

14 there any discussion? I see none. We're ready

15 to vote.

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I'm getting there. 

17 All right, so it's a motion to remove

18 chlorhexidine from 205603A. 

19 The motion was made by Harriet and

20 seconded by Ashley. This is a motion to remove,

21 so a yes-vote is to remove, a no-vote is to

22 retain the listing. 
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1 Voting will start with Lisa.

2 MS. DE LIMA: No. 

3 MR. BRADMAN: No. 

4 MS. MOSSO: No. 

5 MR. ELA: No. 

6 MR. MORTENSEN: No. 

7 MR. BUIE: No. 

8 MS. SWAFFAR: No. 

9 DR. SEITZ: No. 

10 MR. RICE: No. 

11 MS. BAIRD: No. 

12 MS. BEHAR: No. 

13 MS. OAKLEY: No.

14 DR. THICKE: No.

15 MS. BRIONES: No.

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 0,

17 yes; 15, no. The motion fails.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay, moving right along

19 to chlorine, Dr. Brines?

20 DR. BRINES: Thank you, we'll take up

21 all the chlorine materials as a single

22 introduction. 
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1 So, we're continuing under Section

2 205603 paragraph A, and the listing is chlorine

3 materials, disinfecting and sanitizing facilities

4 and equipment. 

5 Residual chlorine levels in the water

6 shall not exceed the maximum residual

7 disinfectant limit under the Safe Drinking Water

8 Act. 

9 And we have calcium hypochlorite,

10 chlorine dioxide, and sodium hypochloride.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: Thanks. Thank you, Dr.

12 Brines, this is my material. I feel like I talk

13 about chlorine every single meeting, so I'm going

14 to kind of keep it pretty brief. 

15 Chlorine is used as a sanitizer and

16 disinfectant in a lot of areas in livestock

17 production from sanitizing surfaces, pails, water

18 lines, things like that. 

19 Some of the comments were there are

20 very few alternatives and there are farmers who

21 use chlorine as there preferred cleaner and

22 sanitizer and if it was removed, it would have a
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1 profound effect on the dairy industry. 

2 A lot of folks said it was routinely

3 used it kill pathogens, and we did get some

4 comments, again, that it has a risk to human

5 health and we should look at a comprehensive

6 review of sanitizers, which fingers crossed, we

7 might be looking at that. 

8 So, we talked about this a lot so I'm

9 going to end it there. 

10 Any discussion? Great, ready to vote.

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, these

12 materials all came bundled together. 

13 So, it's again a motion to remove

14 chlorine materials from 205603A, that's all three

15 of the materials. 

16 The motion was made by Ashley and

17 seconded by Sue. 

18 It's a motion to remove so a yes-vote

19 is to remove, a no-vote is to retain, and the

20 voting will start with Asa. 

21 MR. BRADMAN: No. 

22 MS. MOSSO: No. 
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1 MR. ELA: No. 

2 MR. MORTENSEN: No. 

3 MR. BUIE: No. 

4 MS. SWAFFAR: No. 

5 DR. SEITZ: No. 

6 MR. RICE: No. 

7 MS. BAIRD: No. 

8 MS. BEHAR: No. 

9 MS. OAKLEY: No.

10 DR. THICKE: No.

11 MS. BRIONES: No.

12 MS. DE LIMA: No.

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 0,

14 yes; 15, no. The motion fails. 

15 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay, moving right

16 along, glucose. Dr. Brines?

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you. We're still

18 under Section 205603, Paragraph A, and the

19 listing is glucose. Thanks. 

20 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Dr. Brines.

21 Harriet, keep it brief?

22 MS. BEHAR: Okay, so this is also
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1 another material universally used. Many

2 producers as well as certifiers support it. 

3 It's used in ketosis as well as is an

4 ingredient in calcium gluconate, which is used

5 for milk fever. 

6 So, a very useful and welcome item on

7 the National List by our organic livestock

8 partners. 

9 The vote by the Subcommittee was 7 to

10 retain it and 0 to remove. 

11 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Harriet. Is

12 there any further discussion? Seeing none, we're

13 ready to vote.

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, this is a

15 motion to remove glucose from 205603A. The

16 motion was made by Harriet and seconded by Sue. 

17 This is a motion to remove; a yes-vote

18 is to remove, a no-vote is to retain. And the

19 voting will start with Joelle.

20 MS. MOSSO: No. 

21 MR. ELA: No. 

22 MR. MORTENSEN: No. 
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1 MR. BUIE: No. 

2 MS. SWAFFAR: No. 

3 DR. SEITZ: No. 

4 MR. RICE: No. 

5 MS. BAIRD: No. Did I skip?

6 MS. BEHAR: No. 

7 MS. OAKLEY: No.

8 DR. THICKE: No.

9 MS. BRIONES: No.

10 MS. DE LIMA: No.

11 MR. BRADMAN: No.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 0,

13 yes; 15, no. The motion fails. 

14 MS. SWAFFAR: All right, moving onto

15 oxytocin. Dr. Brines?

16 DR. BRINES: Thank you, we're still

17 under Section 205603, Paragraph A, and the

18 listing is oxytocin use in post parturition

19 therapeutic applications. 

20 The most recent technical report was

21 completed in 2005. Thanks. 

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet, once again?
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1 MS. BEHAR: Okay, oxytocin. So, this

2 has been voted by the Subcommittee to remove. 

3 It is a hormone that has an annotation

4 for post-parturition use therapeutic application

5 only. 

6 Many commenters in both the first

7 review and the second review did mention that it

8 seemed to be an unclear annotation, that there

9 are chances for abuse. 

10 However, and there were many

11 checklists where farmers just checked that they

12 wanted to keep it. 

13 But in further detail with certifiers

14 and during our public comment here, it was

15 mentioned that they liked to have it in their

16 toolbox but they don't use it. 

17 And that I think when it was first put

18 on, I went back to the first tack and it's been

19 on the list for a long time. 

20 It has not really had a very robust

21 discussion over time, it just kind of kept

22 getting renewed. 
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1 But over time, the dairy has set work

2 with organic dairy producers, farmers have really

3 developed both management protocols so they don't

4 have post-birthing problems, as well as how to

5 treat it, either manually or with homeopathics or

6 with herbs. 

7 There's just a variety of different

8 ways of dealing with the issues, that they really

9 are not using it. 

10 The two largest milk buyers in the

11 United States are Crop Cooperative Organic Valley

12 and WhiteWave Danone. I hope I've got that

13 right. 

14 They did not support renewal of this

15 material, nor did the Organic Trade Association. 

16 Numerous commenters really felt that

17 because it's a hormone it should be removed, and

18 so I'm going to just read the Northeast Organic

19 Dairy Producers Association, the recommendation

20 what they say about it. 

21 Because they do represent many organic

22 dairy farmers in the country. They support the
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1 Subcommittee's recommendation to remove oxytocin

2 from the National List. 

3 Oxytocin is a protein hormone, not a

4 body- building steroid hormone. It occurs in all

5 mammals, both male and female. 

6 The word hormone is misunderstood by

7 consumers, and as such, leaves organic dairy

8 producers open to the valid claim that hormones

9 are allowed for use. 

10 Oxytocin is not an essential material

11 for organic production. 

12 If an organic dairy operation suffers

13 from repeated occurrences of prolapsed uterus,

14 underlying issues such as hypocalcemia need to be

15 addressed. 

16 Prolapsed uterus should be a rare

17 occurrence on organic farms and if oxytocin is

18 indeed needed to treat this rare occurrence, then

19 the animal would need to be removed from the herd

20 as with treatment with any other prohibited

21 substance. 

22 And so that is what a group of organic
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1 dairy farmers have said about this material. 

2 Oh, and the vote was 7 to remove, 0

3 no, and 0 abstentions. 

4 So, it was a unanimous vote by the

5 Subcommittee to remove this from the National

6 List. 

7 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Harriet.

8 We'll open that up for discussion starting with

9 Francis. 

10 DR. THICKE: I also was impressed that

11 Organic Valley, Horizon, Straus Dairy, and a lot

12 of organizations, supported removing it,

13 including NODPA, basically, most of the 

14 organizations that represent most of the organic

15 milk. 

16 And the idea that it's a synthetic

17 hormone is something that I think they see as not

18 good to further label. 

19 And I definitely support removing this

20 product from the National List. I think it's

21 time. 

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Anybody else? Harriet?
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1 MS. BEHAR: So, if you have an

2 opinion, instant facts. I agree there, I don't

3 think it's needed. 

4 And in discussion with people in

5 Europe about our prohibition on antibiotics and

6 all the tools that we have learned over time that

7 we don't need them in organic livestock

8 production. Whereas, they do allow them. 

9 I think this is another place where

10 removing it from the toolbox will just encourage

11 our organic dairy producers to look to those

12 natural systems instead and actually find success

13 with those tools, instead of having this

14 synthetic there. 

15 Which really most people just said

16 keep it in the toolbox but I probably won't use

17 it. 

18 I think we just take it out of the

19 toolbox. 

20 MS. SWAFFAR: So I just want to

21 comment, I understand that it's really important

22 to give our producers a lot of tools in their
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1 toolbox, and generally, I always feel like we

2 should give them what they need. But hearing

3 from so many large-theory organizations that

4 there are alternatives that have been working,

5 and that two of the largest organic dairy folks

6 in the U.S. don't even allow this as an input --

7 that kind of hit that one home to me.

8 So that's how I will be voting. Any

9 other discussion? Great, we're ready to vote;

10 Tom?

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: This is a motion to

12 remove Oxytocin from 205.603(a), based on the

13 following criteria in the Organic Foods

14 Production Act, Section 2118, National List

15 (b)(1)(A)(ii) and (iii), Section 2119, and/or 7

16 CFR 205.600(b)(1): essentiality.

17 The motion was made by Harriet and

18 seconded by Ashley. A yes vote is to remove, a

19 no vote is to retain, and the voting will start

20 with Steve.

21 MR. ELA: Yes.

22 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.
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1 MR. BUIE: Yes.

2 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

3 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

4 MR. RICE: Yes.

5 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

6 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

7 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

8 DR. THICKE: Yes.

9 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

10 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

11 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

12 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes. 

14 Fifteen yes, zero no; the motion passes.

15 MS. SWAFFAR: All right; copper

16 sulphate; Dr. Brines? Or, no, no; I'm sorry. 

17 Tolazoline, Dr. Brines.

18 DR. BRINES: Yes, all right. So we're

19 continuing on under 205.603(a); this listing is

20 tolazoline, CAS No. 59-98-3. Federal law

21 restricts this drug first to use by or on the

22 lawful written or oral order, or the licensed
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1 veterinarian, in full compliance with the AMDUCA,

2 and 21 CFR part 530 of the Food and Drug

3 Administration regulations.

4 Secondly, for use under 7 CFR Part

5 205, the NOP requires one use by or on the lawful

6 written order of a licensed veterinarian to use

7 only to reverse the effects of sedation and

8 analgesia cause by Xylazine.

9 Thirdly, a meat-withdrawal period of

10 at least eight days after administering to

11 livestock intended for slaughter, and a milk

12 discard period of at least four days after

13 administering dairy animals.

14 The most recent technical report was

15 completed in 2002. Thanks.

16 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you; Dan?

17 DR. SEITZ: So as Dr. Brines just

18 pointed out, this substance has a very narrow

19 use, and it's just to reverse the effects of the

20 veterinary medicine Xylazine.

21 This was just reviewed in 2015, so

22 we're reviewing it again because of the speeded-
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1 up process to spread out the sunset materials. 

2 There were only a few comments on this, four

3 comments. They all supported relisting.

4 There was a concern raised by two

5 commenters regarding off-label use, but as you

6 can see, we have very specific annotation. So

7 any off-label use would really be an issue with a

8 certifier.

9 So in general, very little comment,

10 but the comment that was received said that this

11 should be kept on as a necessary veterinary

12 medicine.

13 We did have a subcommittee vote on

14 this, and five people voted no, meaning that it

15 should stay on the list; there were two absent,

16 and there were no votes to remove this.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Dan. Is

18 there any discussion? Yes, Francis.

19 DR. THICKE: I would just point out,

20 it's unfortunate that this was not paired with

21 Xylazine for the review process, because we can't

22 really work with one without the other, so it's
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1 going to be awkward from here on, that we're

2 always going to refer to the other drug, so we

3 can't take action; not that I wanted to take

4 action on it. I'm in favor of keeping it on the

5 list.

6 DR. SEITZ: Let me just say that if we

7 do take action on the other material, then we

8 could remove this material. But it wouldn't make

9 sense to remove this first.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: Any other discussion? 

11 All right, we're ready to vote. Tom?

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay; this is a

13 motion to remove tolazoline from 205.603(a). The

14 motion was made by Dan and seconded by Jesse. 

15 It's a motion to remove, so a yes vote is to

16 remove, a no vote is to retain. The voting will

17 start with Dave.

18 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

19 MR. BUIE: No.

20 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

21 DR. SEITZ: No.

22 MR. RICE: No.
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1 MS. BAIRD: No.

2 MS. BEHAR: No.

3 MS. OAKLEY: No.

4 DR. THICKE: No.

5 MS. BRIONES: No.

6 MS. DE LIMA: No.

7 MR. BRADMAN: No.

8 MS. MOSSO: No.

9 MR. ELA: No.

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

11 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

12 MS. SWAFFAR: Thanks. One thing

13 before we move on; on the oxytocin, where we

14 voted to remove; the sunset date for that is

15 March 15th of 2022, I believe, Dr. Brines. So

16 that is one that we did early, so it's not

17 immediately sunsetting. Is that right, 2022?

18 Okay, moving on to copper sulfate; Dr.

19 Brines?

20 DR. BRINES: Thank you; we're under a

21 new paragraph of Section 205.603; it's paragraph

22 (b), as topical treatment, external parasiticide
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1 or local anesthetic as applicable. And the

2 listing is copper sulfate. The most recent

3 technical report was completed in 2015. Thank

4 you.

5 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Dr. Brines. 

6 Jesse?

7 MR. BUIE: Copper sulfate is used in

8 livestock management, specifically as a walk9 through foot bath to help control and prevent

10 foot-related diseases in dairy cattle and sheep.

11 According to the February 15th

12 technical evaluation report commissioned by the

13 livestock committee, there are no natural non14 synthetic products available that can be used as

15 a management strategy to treat hoof-related

16 diseases and lameness in dairy cattle and sheep

17 operations.

18 The Livestock Subcommittee feels that

19 copper sulfate, when used with appropriate

20 management practices and disposed of properly,

21 provides a valuable tool to livestock producers

22 and recommends this material to stay on the
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1 national list.

2 There were a few comments received,

3 but most were for relisting. Several were for

4 more research and recommendations for

5 alternatives. There were seven no votes.

6 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Jesse; I'll

7 open the floor up. Lisa?

8 MS. DE LIMA: I just have a question

9 for you guys; there were a couple of commenters

10 who wanted an annotation similar to crops, and I

11 just wanted to know, from the livestock

12 committee's perspective, is that just less of an

13 issue when it comes to livestock, because it's

14 not being used directly in the soil?

15 MS. SWAFFAR: So I'm not 100 percent

16 sure; I think the annotation was around disposal,

17 maybe.

18 MS. DE LIMA: Used and disposed of in

19 a manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil.

20 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes; what they're

21 concerned about there is folks having a foot

22 bath, and then just dumping it out on the ground. 
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1 So that's why we said that if it's used

2 appropriately and disposed of appropriately.

3 So we can take that back to committee

4 and talk about that on -- no, it was brought up

5 by a commenter, so usually we talk about that.

6 MR. BUIE: And the research shows that

7 there haven't been any issues.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet?

9 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, I was just

10 curious for the folks who reviewed it, or maybe

11 Francis; what is proper disposal of a bath like

12 that?

13 DR. THICKE: I think -- I don't use

14 these baths. I'm thinking that it probably gets

15 dumped in the manure pit, and then it gets put on

16 the land. I hope they don't just dump it on the

17 land somewhere and concentrate it more.

18 But there are alternatives. I mean,

19 most grazing dairy farmers will not use a foot

20 bath. And if you have an isolated foot problem,

21 you just treat it topically; clean it up and

22 treat it topically. The foot baths are more for
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1 the capel dairies.

2 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet?

3 MS. BEHAR: There can also be just

4 regional differences too, or seasonal; if it's

5 very muddy or whatever, you might need a foot

6 bath.

7 But we have also approved zinc

8 sulfate, and there is a petition before us, so we

9 will be looking at in the spring for thymol. 

10 This could even be a research priority, natural

11 alternatives.

12 I don't know if there have been any

13 studies on things like tea tree oil or other

14 things that might be useful, just to lessen

15 copper use in organic systems overall. But I

16 will vote for this material now, because we don't

17 have all those alternatives.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: Sue, did you have your

19 hand up?

20 MS. BAIRD: I think I have to disagree

21 with my friend, Francis. I do a lot of

22 inspections, especially smaller, Amish
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1 Mennonites, and many of them are using the foot

2 bath.

3 MS. SWAFFAR: Any other discussion? 

4 Okay, I think we're ready to vote.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, so this is a

6 motion to remove copper sulfate from 205.603(b)

7 as a topical treatment, external parasiticide or

8 local anesthetic. The motion came from Jesse,

9 and was seconded by Harriet. It's a motion to

10 remove, so a yes vote is to remove, a no vote is

11 to retain. And the voting will start with Jesse.

12 MR. BUIE: No.

13 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

14 DR. SEITZ: No.

15 MR. RICE: No.

16 MS. BAIRD: No.

17 MS. BEHAR: No.

18 MS. OAKLEY: No.

19 DR. THICKE: No.

20 MS. BRIONES: No.

21 MS. DE LIMA: No.

22 MR. BRADMAN: No.
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1 MS. MOSSO: No.

2 MR. ELA: No.

3 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: The chair votes no.

5 Zero yes, 15 no, the motion fails.

6 MS. SWAFFAR: All right, moving on to

7 lidocaine; Dr. Brines?

8 DR. BRINES: Thank you; we're still

9 under paragraph (b), and the listing is lidocaine

10 as a local anesthetic. Use requires a withdrawal

11 period of 90 days after administering to

12 livestock intended for slaughter, and seven days

13 after administering to dairy animals. Thanks.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: All right, Dan.

15 DR. SEITZ: So a little more

16 background on the substance; lidocaine is a local

17 anesthesia which has a rapid onset of action, and

18 is short-term in duration. It numbs only the

19 area to be worked on.

20 For example, lidocaine is used to

21 humanely debud horns on calves and for minor

22 surgery on mature animals. It was last reviewed
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1 in 2015, so again this is part of this speeded-up

2 process.

3 Subsequently, the withdrawal period

4 was changed through an annotation, but that's not

5 something we're looking at. It was shortened;

6 that happened in 2016.

7 There were seven comments in favor

8 that supported the relisting the material; there

9 was no opposition. And generally, this is seen

10 as being something that's very useful for

11 livestock veterinary treatment.

12 So the subcommittee voted zero yes,

13 five no, zero abstentions, two absent; so

14 basically voted to keep it on the list.

15 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you. Is there any

16 discussion? Harriet?

17 MS. BEHAR: This is important material

18 for animal welfare.

19 MS. SWAFFAR: And I just wanted to

20 clarify that what Dan talked about, the

21 withholding period; that was a proposal from the

22 board, and the program has not officially put
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1 that into rulemaking yet. So we're still at the

2 90. Yes, Francis.

3 DR. THICKE: I would agree that it's

4 important to keep it on the list.

5 MS. SWAFFAR: Further discussion?

6 MR. MORTENSEN: I was wondering if

7 someone, just for clarification -- the slaughter

8 interval is 90 days, and the milking interval is

9 eight days. I'm surprised by such a large

10 difference, that there wouldn't be residues in

11 the milk. Anybody know anything about that?

12 MS. SWAFFAR: Francis?

13 DR. THICKE: When we reviewed those

14 withholding times, Jean Richardson took the lead,

15 and we looked at AMDUCA and the requirements from

16 the FDA, and we doubled them, if my memory is

17 right. And so it doubled what the requirement

18 was from the FDA, if I remember right.

19 MR. MORTENSEN: Okay.

20 MS. SWAFFAR: That's right. Emily?

21 MS. OAKLEY: What are we going to do

22 when we don't have Francis?
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1 MS. SWAFFAR: I am not happy. I think

2 he's going to stay another five years. I need my

3 dairy person. Any other discussion? Okay, we're

4 ready to vote.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: The motion is to

6 remove lidocaine from 206.603(b). The motion was

7 made by Dan, seconded by Francis. This is a

8 motion to remove, so a yes vote is to remove, a

9 no vote is to retain. The voting will start with

10 Ashley.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

12 DR. SEITZ: No.

13 MR. RICE: No.

14 MS. BAIRD: No.

15 MS. BEHAR: No.

16 MS. OAKLEY: No.

17 DR. THICKE: No.

18 MS. BRIONES: No.

19 MS. DE LIMA: No.

20 MR. BRADMAN: No.

21 MS. MOSSO: No.

22 MR. ELA: No.
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

2 MR. BUIE: No.

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

4 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

5 MS. SWAFFAR: All right, and on to

6 procaine. Dr. Brines?

7 DR. BRINES: Yes, thank you. We're

8 still under paragraph (b), and the listing is

9 procaine as a local anesthetic. Use requires a

10 withdrawal period of 90 days after administering

11 to livestock intended for slaughter, and seven

12 days after administering to dairy animals. 

13 Thanks.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you. Dan?

15 DR. SEITZ: So like lidocaine,

16 procaine is a local anesthetic which has a rapid

17 onset of action, and is of short-term duration. 

18 It numbs only the area to be worked on, and can

19 be used to humanely debud horns on calves and for

20 minor surgery.

21 This also was last reviewed in 2015,

22 and similar to lidocaine, subsequently there was
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1 a proposal for an annotation change, to lower the

2 withdrawal period.

3 Unlike lidocaine, there were a number

4 of questions raised about procaine. There were

5 seven comments altogether that were received this

6 time around. One comment stated that it is

7 currently being used; one comment explicitly

8 recommended continued listing.

9 However, several commenters noted that

10 procaine may be commonly combined with

11 antibiotics. If you Google procaine, you'll find

12 that many products come up that are listed as

13 combining it with an antibiotic.

14 Apparently -- and this was from a

15 couple commenters -- this is not commercially

16 available in an organic-compliant form, and the

17 FDA has also withdrawn a number of procaine

18 products from its approval.

19 So I would say that a majority of the

20 commenters felt either that there were issues

21 around whether it is always combined with

22 antibiotics, whether it's available, and whether
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1 it's really a useful thing to have in their

2 toolbox, when you consider lidocaine tends to be

3 a more effective and widely-used substance.

4 So we had a split vote on the

5 subcommittee level, with three members voting

6 yes, suggesting that it be delisted. Two voted

7 no, saying that it should be relisted, and two

8 were absent.

9 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Dan. We'll

10 open the floor for discussion. Harriet?

11 MS. BEHAR: Because there's nothing

12 commercially available in an organically13 acceptable form, and we do have lidocaine present

14 to perform the same task, I will be voting to

15 remove this material.

16 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay, any other

17 discussion? Dave?

18 MR. MORTENSEN: I think Harriet

19 answered most of my question, but I was curious

20 about a couple of the other hinge issues that led

21 people to vote for and against this. Dan, could

22 you give us insight into that?
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1 DR. SEITZ: I think the yes votes

2 reflected Harriet's thinking. A no vote was that

3 it was just another tool that may be helpful. It

4 wasn't absolutely certain that it couldn't be

5 found in a form that was without an antibiotic

6 attached to it. So probably just the idea of no

7 harm done in leaving it.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: So I'd like to follow up

9 to that. I think it was more of, Let's see if we

10 can get more public comment out this, to see if

11 there truly wasn't a form that didn't contain

12 antibiotics. So that's kind of where that split

13 vote came out. Francis?

14 DR. THICKE: Yes, I'm also in favor of

15 removing it. Lidocaine seems to be as effective

16 or more effective, and commonly in use.

17 The biggest issue for me is that, in

18 many areas of the country, there aren't really

19 veterinarians who are familiar with organics. 

20 And when they say they'll bring procaine, then

21 they'll just grab procaine. That's what they do;

22 they treat animals with drugs.
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1 So they'll grab procaine and use

2 antibiotics with it. So there could be this

3 confusion, and unintentionally get antibiotics

4 into an animal.

5 MS. SWAFFAR: Any other discussion?

6 MR. RICE: I just have a question in

7 terms of -- I saw that CROPP Organic Valley was

8 in support of letting this go. But then VOF,

9 Vermont Organic, said their producers use it as a

10 general.

11 Is it explicitly used with an

12 antibiotic, or can it be used without? I was a

13 little confused about that.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: Francis?

15 DR. THICKE: I've not seen any

16 reference that it's actually available without

17 antibiotic; we've been looking for that. And

18 also, it's used in the outpatient as a local

19 anesthetic like lidocaine, so it's really the

20 same usage as lidocaine.

21 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet?

22 MS. BEHAR: And not just the thought
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1 of an antibiotic in the milk supply, but an

2 unsuspecting producer who's working with a

3 veterinarian who doesn't understand the organic

4 regulation could lose a valuable animal in their

5 herd.

6 And for livestock people, it's not

7 just about production; it's about genetics, so we

8 want to make sure the genetics that they're

9 trying to retain and build upon in their herds

10 are not going to be accidentally treated with

11 something that could take it out of production.

12 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you. Tom?

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I just wanted to

14 make sure I didn't miss something in the public

15 comment. Did anyone comment specifically, saying

16 they could get it without the antibiotic? Did we

17 get anything directly?

18 DR. SEITZ: I did not see that comment

19 anywhere.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I didn't see it

21 either; I'm just trying to check.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: A-dae?
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1 MS. BRIONES: I don't know if anybody

2 can answer this question, but if a producer uses

3 procaine -- why would a producer use procaine

4 instead of lidocaine? Is there --

5 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet?

6 MS. BEHAR: Well, the concern is that

7 if there's a veterinarian on the farm, and they

8 see a list that just says, procaine, then they

9 would just pull that out of their tool if there's

10 a minor surgery that they're performing.

11 They wouldn't necessarily think to

12 look at the ingredients of the procaine, to make

13 sure there were no antibiotics, especially if

14 they were not familiar with organic regulations. 

15 They wouldn't know that the antibiotic could then

16 make that animal no longer suitable for organic

17 production.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: So I'm going to call on

19 myself; as best I can tell, the two are

20 interchangeable, lidocaine and procaine, as far

21 as their use. Tom?

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Is there
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1 availability difference between the two? Was

2 that a reason, originally?

3 MS. SWAFFAR: Francis?

4 DR. THICKE: I'm not certain. I know

5 lidocaine is widely available and widely used.

6 MS. SWAFFAR: Emily?

7 MS. OAKLEY: If we should vote to

8 remove this substance, would the cover letter for

9 its removal state that there were no known

10 products available that did not include the

11 antibiotics? I think that might help explain the

12 situation, especially the smaller-scale producers

13 who might not understand that.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: That's a great point to

15 throw on there, and I'll make a note of that, for

16 sure. Any other -- Sue?

17 MS. BAIRD: I was one that voted yes

18 on it, and I did it simply because I was hoping

19 that we would get further clarification, whether

20 it was available without the antibiotics. I

21 really hate taking tools away, but if it's not

22 available, then I'm absolutely going to vote
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1 against that now. I'm going to vote no.

2 MS. SWAFFAR: You mean yes? Yes is to

3 remove.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: You're going to

5 vote to sunset?

6 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

7 MS. SWAFFAR: Any other discussion? 

8 All right, looks like we're ready to vote, Tom.

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right. Before

10 I get into the voting, because this was a split

11 motion, real quick; Dr. Brines, I'm going to put

12 you on the spot again. What is the original

13 sunset date for this material?

14 DR. BRINES: The sunset date for

15 procaine is March 15th, 2022, and as part of the

16 sunset reorganization, the board recommended that

17 materials reviewed early not sunset prior to the

18 original date.

19 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Correct, so there's

20 also that time, as well, for folks to comment in,

21 if there's something we're unaware of.

22 All right, so the motion to remove
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1 procaine from 205.603(b) is based on the

2 following criteria: the Organic Foods Production

3 Act and/or 7 CFR 205.600(b). If applicable, the

4 reason given is essentiality.

5 The motion is made by Dan, seconded by

6 Sue. This is a motion to remove, so a yes vote

7 is to remove, a no vote is to retain, and the

8 voting will start with Dan.

9 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

10 MR. RICE: Yes.

11 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

12 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

13 DR. THICKE: Yes.

14 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

15 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

16 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

17 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

18 MR. ELA: Yes.

19 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

20 MR. BUIE: Yes.

21 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes.
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1 MS. SWAFFAR: Can we get clarification

2 from Sue?

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Sue, we couldn't

4 hear your vote. Can you vote again?

5 MS. BAIRD: I said no.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Fourteen yes, one

7 no; the motion passes.

8 So we're going to take a break now;

9 it's 10:30. We'll come back into session in 15

10 minutes, at 10:45.

11 Just a note, we found these glasses;

12 has someone lost a pair of glasses, or know who

13 these belong to? I'm going to put them over by

14 Michelle, but come find them if they're yours.

15 DR. TUCKER: We also found a small

16 black button.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: A small black

18 button; so if you're missing a button, come find

19 us too.

20 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

21 went off the record at 10:31 a.m. and resumed at

22 10:47 a.m.)
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Members of the

2 board can return to their seats; members of the

3 public finish their conversations.

4 All right, we're going to get started

5 back up now. We're still on livestock agenda, so

6 I'm going to hand it back to Ashley.

7 MS. SWAFFAR: Starting with sulfur,

8 Dr. Brines, you want to introduce it?

9 DR. BRINES: Yes, thank you. I'm

10 happy to introduce the petition. This petition

11 for sulfur was received by the program on March

12 1st, 2016, and was submitted by Landis

13 International, Incorporated. The petition

14 requests the addition of sulfur to Section

15 205.603 of the national list.

16 There was a technical evaluation

17 report that was prepared in response to the

18 request from the Livestock Subcommittee for this

19 material. Sulfur has also been previously

20 classified by the board as a synthetic substance. 

21 Thanks.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Dr. Brines. 
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1 A-dae?

2 MS. BRIONES: Yes, so the petition is

3 for sulfur to be used in livestock production, as

4 a livestock parasiticide. It's currently allowed

5 for use in the production of organic crops as an

6 insecticide, for plant disease control, and as a

7 plant or soil amendment.

8 Sulfur is used as a pesticide

9 repellant for mites, fleas, and ticks for

10 domestic livestock, chickens, turkeys, ducks,

11 cattle, swine, sheep, goats, and other animals. 

12 Sulfur its application by rubbing a powder into

13 the feathers and hair.

14 We had a few written comments; there

15 was one comment that didn't support its listing.

16 Another commenter supported the listing with

17 conditions, with more studies on the necessity of

18 sulfur.

19 But other commenters generally

20 supported its listing, including those from

21 veterinarians and producers. One organization or

22 one oral commenter cited the transition of open
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1 pasture poultry operations required more tools in

2 their toolbox to allow for open pasture grazing

3 of poultry.

4 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, A-dae. We'll

5 open the floor; any discussion? Emily?

6 MS. OAKLEY: Could you elaborate on

7 the public commenter who did not support the

8 listing of this material, and the one who

9 supported it with reservations?

10 MS. BRIONES: Yes, one commenter,

11 beyond pesticides, suggested well questioned its

12 compatibility with organic practices; questioned

13 its necessity and questioned the impact on human

14 and environmental health.

15 The other commenter who supported its

16 listing pending greater analysis of the substance

17 necessity, and that was the Cornucopia Institute.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: Emily?

19 MS. OAKLEY: Sorry, one more question,

20 which is the impact on animals. I've been asking

21 some of the commenters, and I noticed that that

22 was missing from the overall review. Given that
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1 it's a known skin and eye irritant, that's my

2 main concern.

3 You're weighing out the animal welfare

4 issue of not wanting them to have the mites,

5 ticks, etc., but you also don't want them to be

6 subjected to skin and eye irritations.

7 So I guess that's my concern right

8 now; I'm not totally sure how to address that. 

9 I'm not on livestock, so I don't want to throw a

10 wrench in plans, but it would be great if people

11 had information on that, if you could share it,

12 or help me clarify my uncertainty here.

13 MS. SWAFFAR: So I'll take that one. 

14 You know, I just look at the alternatives of what

15 we're using. Diatomaceous earth is one of the

16 things that people say is an alternative. I

17 don't know if you all have ever worked with

18 diatomaceous earth; it's not a great thing, it

19 really hurts your lungs. So I kind of weigh

20 those options.

21 Also, from a worker's standpoint, it's

22 not a great alternative, either. I've not had
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1 much experience with using sulfur firsthand in

2 chicken houses. How I know that some producers

3 on the conventional side are using it is more in

4 a dust box setting.

5 So it's not pure sulfur being applied

6 to the animal; they'll mix it in with some

7 shavings or something like that. That way, they

8 get a little dilution instead of taking sulfur

9 and rubbing it into the feathers, as the petition

10 said. That's not really what's happening.

11 I don't have firsthand experience of

12 knowing of birds getting blinded or anything like

13 that, but I will say that most producers wouldn't

14 be applying a product that would blind their

15 birds. Because then, they would go out of

16 production, and that's the worst thing you can

17 have, for a hen not producing an egg.

18 Yes, Sue?

19 MS. BAIRD: Yes; I have seen a few

20 producers that use the sulfur in their dust

21 boxes, but I would agree; I've not seen anybody

22 rub it into the -- first of all, they just don't
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1 take that much care of their chickens, unless

2 they're pet chickens. Then they'll pick each

3 chicken up and rub it.

4 So it's used in dust boxes; I've not

5 heard of any who say that there are problems with

6 eyes as a result of that.

7 I know that they were concerned that

8 perhaps they would then go to the dust box, the

9 animals would go outside and affect the soils out

10 there. I think that would be pretty minimal, if

11 at all.

12 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet?

13 MS. BEHAR: Yes, I agree with that. 

14 I would rather not -- we don't have any really

15 great alternatives.

16 And I think it's also a good idea, when

17 you're trying to deal with a parasite that could

18 build resistance one way or another, to have

19 various things in rotation. I don't know if they

20 ever get resistance to diatomaceous earth, but it

21 is a nasty substance to use. So I will vote for

22 this.
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1 MS. SWAFFAR: Steve?

2 MR. ELA: I just want to say that I

3 echo Emily's thoughts. On the crop side, as a

4 producer who uses sulfur, it's really nasty when

5 you get it in your eyes, and it's really easy to

6 do that.

7 It does kind of puzzle me; I know

8 chickens are different, but since this is all of

9 livestock, as I understand, and I may not be

10 correct on that; but I would think that cattle or

11 any bigger species -- the evidence doesn't jive

12 with me.

13 I don't quite understand how you can

14 dust it and not get it in the eyes, and not have

15 it be an irritant. There must be something I feel

16 like I'm missing something.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: So I'll call on myself;

18 most of the time, sulfur is in a wettable powder

19 form. There's one particular brand name that

20 most people use.

21 I do inspect a lot of chickens every

22 year, not only organic, but on the conventional
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1 side too, doing welfare inspections. What I see

2 of the use of this product; I do see some use of

3 it. Producers aren't just going in and putting

4 it in dust boxes as a preventative step. Most of

5 the time I've never seen it used as a

6 preventative step; it's only if you have a mite

7 infestation. That's when they're using this

8 product.

9 So that's one important note; it's not

10 like every chicken in America is going to have

11 sulfur all over it. But I will say, in my

12 experience with the alternatives; diatomaceous

13 earth and all that, producers are just not seeing

14 that work.

15 Diatomaceous earth is great for

16 internal parasites; external, not so great. 

17 Mites are really hard to get rid of in a poultry

18 house. I feel it's a really critical tool for

19 them to have in their toolbox.

20 Emily, did you have comment?

21 MS. OAKLEY: No, we've never really

22 used sulfur on our farm, but I have handled it. 
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1 It's also itchy; so I just wanted to throw that

2 out there as well.

3 I just come at it from the crops

4 perspective, and knowing that it's not a material

5 that you want to get on you, if you can avoid it.

6 But I hear the animal welfare issue as

7 well. We have chiggers in Oklahoma, and they're

8 awful, so it's a conflict.

9 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet?

10 MS. BEHAR: So this sulfur is

11 considered a synthetic because of how it's been

12 extracted. And it really is, but it's not

13 available. But sulfur is an element that, in the

14 past, had been mined. But now, my understanding

15 is that it comes out of scrubbers from coal-fired

16 plants and things like that.

17 So the lower cost of that

18 manufacturing process has made it that we're not

19 really pulling it out. But if it would have been

20 a mined product, it would have just been natural

21 and would have been allowed.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Sue, comment?
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1 MS. BAIRD: Yes, I found it

2 interesting; the pastured poultry person who

3 commented yesterday said that they're seeing more

4 impacts from mites since they've been out on

5 pasture than when they were in the houses, or

6 they had outdoor access; but mainly in houses.

7 And now they're putting them out on

8 pastures, and they're seeing more mites. It

9 really does impact their health, when they have

10 mites. They scratch, they lose their feathers; I

11 think it is a health issue for the animal, that

12 we find a tool they can use to get rid of the

13 mites.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: A-dae?

15 MS. BRIONES: And I would note that we

16 had a commenter, Georgia Sulfur, who did mention

17 that they had a product that is petroleum jelly

18 based. And also in the TR, it mentioned that

19 sulfur can be combined with lard, so it's not

20 purely in dust form.

21 MS. SWAFFAR: That is true, but most

22 people I know aren't going to go walking around,
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1 spreading that on every chicken. This is a vent

2 mite, usually, and to Sue's point, this does lead

3 to picking.

4 It also has a greater welfare impact

5 for the birds, with the mites. Because I've been

6 in a few houses with mites, and it's not pretty

7 at all.

8 Yes, Harriet.

9 MS. BEHAR: But the jello lard could

10 be used in other species of livestock.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes, that is important

12 to note. It's not just for poultry; the primary

13 use is for poultry.

14 Any other discussion? I just want to

15 reiterate that I do really support this; a lot of

16 poultry farmers that I see every week are always

17 asking me for a great option for mites. Most of

18 the folks I talk to would really like to have

19 this as a tool in their toolbox.

20 Tom, we're ready to vote.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. So there is

22 no classification motion here, because this
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1 material has been previously classified. The

2 motion is just on the petition itself, to add

3 sulfur as petitioned, to 205.603. The motion was

4 made by A-dae and seconded by Jesse, and the

5 voting will start with Scott.

6 MR. RICE: Yes.

7 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

8 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

9 MS. OAKLEY: Abstain.

10 DR. THICKE: Yes.

11 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

12 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

13 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

14 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

15 MR. ELA: Yes.

16 MR. MORTENSEN: Abstain.

17 MR. BUIE: Yes.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

19 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes. 

21 Thirteen yes, zero no, two abstentions; the

22 motion passes.
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1 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you; moving on to

2 hypochlorous acid, Dr. Brines.

3 DR. BRINES: Thank you. The petition

4 for hypochlorous acid was submitted to the

5 program on July 11th, 2016 by Innovacyn. The

6 petition requests the addition hypochlorous acid

7 to Section 205.603 of the national list as a

8 topical medical treatment.

9 This use is beyond the use that was

10 previously considered by the board in a previous

11 petition. In addition to the technical reports

12 that were already available for this substance,

13 the subcommittee did request the development of a

14 limited-scope technical evaluation report to

15 consider additional uses. That report and the

16 petition are available to the public on the NOP

17 website. And this substance was previously

18 classified by the board in its previous reviews

19 as a synthetic substance. Thank you.

20 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you. Francis?

21 DR. THICKE: I forgot I'm in charge of

22 this one. So this is being petitioned for use
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1 for pink eye and as a wound spray, as an

2 antimicrobial.

3 As was mentioned, it was already on

4 the list for other uses, as sanitizers. But we

5 in the Livestock Subcommittee recognizes a

6 difference in this use, in that this is not being

7 used as a general sanitizer in this case. It is

8 being petitioned for a health product, and there

9 are other options available for producers to use.

10 So this is a topical treatment for

11 pink eye and wounds. It has different

12 considerations, because as the technical report

13 indicates, there are a lot of other options for

14 pink eye and wound treatment in livestock, and in

15 the proposal, we've listed about 20-some that can

16 be used. And so the Livestock Subcommittee was

17 not real amenable to adding this to the national

18 list.

19 And public comments were mostly in

20 favor of not allowing it to be put on the list. 

21 So I think we feel pretty confident that we

22 should not put it on the list, and I would like
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1 to open it up to others' comments.

2 MS. SWAFFAR: Harriet?

3 MS. BEHAR: I do see producers

4 struggle, sometimes, with pink eye; but I also

5 see most of them working it out with the current

6 materials that we have on the national list.

7 A lot of it is also kind of management

8 related; just not causing the animals to be in

9 really brushy areas, where they're going to tear

10 out their eyes, and allow that bacteria to

11 accumulate.

12 But I do see people having good luck

13 with the current system.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: Francis?

15 DR. THICKE: Yes, I would agree that

16 management is very important. Just to kind of

17 look at how pink eye happens; when animals start

18 to tear up, they're starting to get infection. 

19 And then you need to do some kind of eye wash to

20 prevent it from settling into the tissue.

21 And so these products can do that; a

22 lot of products can serve as an eye wash, as a
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1 hypochlorous acid could do, to prevent it from

2 settling into the tissue.

3 But once it settles into the tissue,

4 none of these products are really going to solve

5 the problem. Then you need an antibiotic or

6 something else more systemic to really solve the

7 problem. And then, of course, the animal needs

8 to be taken out of the herd.

9 But even for topical treatment, there

10 are products commercially available. I'm

11 familiar with one that I use, that is a mixture

12 of three materials: garlic, aloe, and comfrey. 

13 The garlic serves as an antimicrobial, the aloe

14 serves as a soothing effect, and the comfrey

15 serves as a healing stimulant.

16 So I feel that we really have what we

17 need for tools for this system.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: Anyone else? All right,

19 it looks like we're ready to vote.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. Again, there

21 is no motion to classify, since this material has

22 been previously classified. So it's just votes
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1 on the petition. The motion is to add

2 hypochlorous acid at 205.603; the motion was made

3 by Francis, seconded by Harriet. A yes vote is

4 to add, a no vote is to reject this petition.

5 The voting will start with Sue.

6 MS. BAIRD: No.

7 MS. BEHAR: No.

8 MS. OAKLEY: No.

9 DR. THICKE: No.

10 MS. BRIONES: No.

11 MS. DE LIMA: No.

12 MR. BRADMAN: No.

13 MS. MOSSO: No.

14 MR. ELA: No.

15 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

16 MR. BUIE: No.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

18 DR. SEITZ: No.

19 MR. RICE: No.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

21 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Thank you, Francis. 
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1 That is your last material of your tenure. It

2 makes me sad.

3 All right. Moving on for a clarifying

4 emergency for use of synthetic parasiticide in

5 organic livestock production. No introduction by

6 Dr. Brines, so we'll go to Harriet.

7 MS. BEHAR: Okay. This was put in

8 place due to the vote by the Livestock

9 Subcommittee close to two years ago, to lower the

10 withdrawal time for moxidectin and fenbendazole,

11 which was precipitated by the removal of

12 ivermectin.

13 So the thought was, We have one less

14 parasiticide and then the other two would have

15 more availability, by having a lowered withdrawal

16 time. But it was tied to the phrase, for

17 emergency treatment.

18 So there was a thought that, in order

19 to have consistency in the certification system,

20 to make it transparent for producers, certifiers,

21 inspectors, and consumers, of when these

22 parasiticides were being used, that we should
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1 define what an emergency is when relating to

2 parasiticides.

3 At first, we discussed defining

4 emergency in a broader sense. But since the

5 word, emergency, is used numerous times in the

6 regulation in crop production and other places,

7 we thought we would stick to keeping it in the

8 livestock section and just define what an

9 emergency looks like, and when synthetic

10 parasiticides were going to be used.

11 So we looked at following the

12 hierarchy for using synthetics in both the

13 processing and the crops sections of the rule;

14 first, you should be looking at management,

15 cultural, biological, mechanical ways of

16 preventing the problem. After that, move towards

17 the use of natural materials, having the

18 synthetic being the last resort.

19 And that was somewhat of a roadmap to

20 help operators understand that, again, just

21 because a synthetic is on the national list -- in

22 this case, a synthetic parasiticide -- that's not
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1 the first place you go when you have a problem. 

2 Really, you should be looking to prevent the

3 problem to start with, and work through that

4 hierarchical chain to the synthetic.

5 We did get a lot of comments, which is

6 always wonderful to read, and so I thank everyone

7 for that. It looks like we probably should send

8 this back to subcommittee to take into account

9 all of those great comments.

10 I really appreciated the comments from

11 the numerous certifiers, NOC, Straus, MOSA, CCOF,

12 PCO, OEFFA, and others who commented on how this

13 would be implemented.

14 They are the ones who have to read the

15 language and explain it to their producers. So

16 we definitely don't want there to be confusion

17 out there. The whole point was to have clarity.

18 So that's it. There is a lot of

19 verbage, that was one thing. We did discuss this

20 with the program, and they gave input as well on

21 where to put it and how to write it and things

22 like that. So once we do get the wording right,
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1 we could put this forward for rulemaking.

2 MS. SWAFFAR: So I'll open it up for

3 discussion. Dave?

4 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes, this strategy

5 sounds great; we're all for clarity.

6 MS. SWAFFAR: Emily?

7 MS. OAKLEY: It's a good example of

8 collaboration between the NOSB and the NOP,

9 because you certainly don't want to write

10 something that can't past the muster of the NOP.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: So I just want to talk a

12 little bit about this. I know there's been a lot

13 of suggestion that maybe this would be better as

14 guidance, and a lot of folks in the audience know

15 my feel of guidance.

16 You probably won't get anything out of

17 livestock, as guidance for a while, because I

18 think there's a lot of room for interpretation in

19 guidance, and that's what we're trying to solve

20 here, is trying to define that.

21 But I really appreciated the public

22 comment on ways for us to actually improve this
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1 document. I think we'll come back with something

2 even stronger, hopefully in the spring.

3 So does anyone -- Harriet?

4 MS. BEHAR: There were numerous

5 comments on addressing this issue somewhat

6 differently, not having the hierarchy in there,

7 and instead having a specific definition for

8 emergency treatment when using synthetic

9 parasiticides, putting it instead in the

10 definition section; and so we'll look at that.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: Any other comments? 

12 Harriet?

13 MS. BEHAR: I make the motion to send

14 it back to subcommittee.

15 MS. SWAFFAR: Do we have a second?

16 MR. MORTENSEN: I second.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. There's a

18 motion to refer the proposal on clarifying

19 emergency for use in synthetic parasiticides in

20 organic livestock production back to the

21 Livestock Subcommittee. The motion was made by

22 Harriet, seconded by Dave. A yes vote is to
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1 refer back to subcommittee; a no vote is to

2 continue discussion of this item. The voting

3 will start with Harriet.

4 MS. SWAFFAR: Point of order; we

5 should open the floor.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Is there any

7 discussion on this motion? Seeing none, we will

8 proceed to a vote. The voting will start with

9 Harriet.

10 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

11 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

12 DR. THICKE: Yes.

13 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

14 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

15 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

16 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

17 MR. ELA: Yes.

18 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

19 MR. BUIE: Yes.

20 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

21 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

22 MR. RICE: Yes.
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1 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes. 

3 Fifteen yes, zero no; the motion passes, and it's

4 referred back to subcommittee.

5 MS. SWAFFAR: And that concludes

6 Livestock. Once again, we get you back closer to

7 on time.

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Ashley. 

9 We're only about an hour behind right now, not

10 bad. Up next is Handling; Lisa? Lisa De Lima,

11 Chair of Handling.

12 MS. DE LIMA: All right, we're going

13 to jump right into sunset, starting with

14 attapulgite. Dr. Brines?

15 DR. BRINES: Thank you. We begin the

16 Handling Subcommittee sunset review under Section

17 205.605: non-agricultural, non-organic

18 substances allowed as ingredients allowed in or

19 on processed products labeled as organic or made

20 with organic specified ingredients or food

21 groups.

22 The first listing is attapulgite as a
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1 processing aid in the handling of plant and

2 animal oils. The most recent technical review

3 was completed in 2010. Thanks.

4 MS. DE LIMA: Joelle?

5 MS. MOSSO: Attapulgite is a natural

6 clay with adsorptive properties, with an open

7 channel that can filter and absorb and adsorb

8 substances to remove powders and other

9 impurities.

10 During the spring comment, we received

11 three votes to maintain and two to question

12 removal due to lack of support info we received

13 to public comments.

14 Otherwise, it's a pretty non-contentious

15 material.

16 Within subcommittee, we had zero yes

17 votes to remove, seven to maintain, and one

18 absent.

19 MS. DE LIMA: Is there any discussion?

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, we have a

21 motion to remove attapulgite from 205.605(a). 

22 The motion was made by Joelle and seconded by
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1 Ashley. This is a motion to remove, so a yes

2 vote is to remove, no is to retain; the voting

3 will start with Emily.

4 MS. OAKLEY: No.

5 DR. THICKE: No.

6 MS. BRIONES: No.

7 MS. DE LIMA: No.

8 MR. BRADMAN: No.

9 MS. MOSSO: No.

10 MR. ELA: No.

11 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

12 MR. BUIE: No.

13 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

14 DR. SEITZ: No.

15 MR. RICE: No.

16 MS. BAIRD: No.

17 MS. BEHAR: No.

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

19 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

20 MS. DE LIMA: Next up, diatomaceous

21 earth; Dr. Brines.

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you; we're
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1 continuing on under 205.605, non-synthetics

2 allowed, and the listing is bentonite. Thank

3 you.

4 MS. DE LIMA: Joelle?

5 MS. MOSSO: The second of the clays;

6 it's a natural clay that is also used for

7 filtering. It's used widely in the wine and oil

8 industries to remove proteins and impurities.

9 It is manufactured by open mining,

10 which is what we received two comments for

11 further review on. However, nothing has changed

12 since prior listing.

13 It was reviewed in 2015 with no

14 opposition to relist, and in the fall, we

15 received four comments to relist. It was noted

16 to be extremely critical to the wine and oil

17 industries.

18 In committee, we had zero to remove

19 and seven to maintain listing, with one absent.

20 MS. DE LIMA: Any discussion? 

21 Harriet.

22 MS. BEHAR: I like fermented
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1 beverages.

2 MS. DE LIMA: All right. No other

3 discussion?

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right, this is

5 a motion to remove bentonite from 205.605(a). 

6 The motion was made by Joelle and seconded by

7 Ashley. A yes vote is to remove, a no vote is to

8 retain, and the voting will start with Francis.

9 DR. THICKE: No.

10 MS. BRIONES: No.

11 MS. DE LIMA: No.

12 MR. BRADMAN: No.

13 MS. MOSSO: No.

14 MR. ELA: No.

15 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

16 MR. BUIE: No.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

18 DR. SEITZ: No.

19 MR. RICE: No.

20 MS. BAIRD: No.

21 MS. BEHAR: No.

22 MS. OAKLEY: No.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

2 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

3 MS. DE LIMA: All right, next up is

4 nitrogen; that's me, and my whole computer just

5 froze, so give me a second to catch up. Dr.

6 Brines?

7 DR. BRINES: Okay, I'll read slowly,

8 then. So we're continuing on under 205.603(a),

9 non-synthetics allowed, and the listing is

10 diatomaceous earth: food-filtering aid only. 

11 The most recent technical advisory panel report

12 is dated 1995. Thank you.

13 MS. DE LIMA: Joelle?

14 MS. MOSSO: Okay, so we move from

15 clays to crushed shells of silica. They are also

16 filter aids for syrups, juices, beers, and other

17 beverages, as well as other products within the

18 industry.

19 It is not present in the finished

20 product, and is classified as a processing aid. 

21 It is also produced through mining. In spring we

22 received a lot of public comment to relist, as it
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1 is considered critical; and in fall, we received

2 five public comments to relist as well.

3 In committee, we had zero to remove,

4 seven to retain on the list, and one absent.

5 MS. DE LIMA: Any discussion from the

6 board? Seeing none, we'll move to a vote.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: This is a motion to

8 remove diatomaceous earth from 205.605(a). The

9 motion was made by Joelle and seconded by Ashley. 

10 It's a motion to remove, so a yes vote is to

11 remove, a no vote is to retain. The voting will

12 begin with A-dae.

13 MS. BRIONES: No.

14 MS. DE LIMA: No.

15 MR. BRADMAN: No.

16 MS. MOSSO: No.

17 MR. ELA: No.

18 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

19 MR. BUIE: No.

20 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

21 DR. SEITZ: No.

22 MR. ELA: No.
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1 MS. BAIRD: No.

2 MS. BEHAR: No.

3 MS. OAKLEY: No.

4 DR. THICKE: No.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

6 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

7 MS. DE LIMA: All right. Next up is

8 nitrogen. Nitrogen is used to --

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Dr. Brines.

10 MS. DE LIMA: Oh, sorry.

11 DR. BRINES: Sorry to jump in there. 

12 Very quickly, we're still under the non13 synthetics allowed, and this listing is nitrogen,

14 oil-free grades with a technical advisory panel

15 dated 1995. Thanks.

16 MS. DE LIMA: All right. So,

17 nitrogen, used in storage and packaging, used in

18 flash-freezing of foods. This was another

19 material that we reviewed two years ago and

20 passed, and that we're looking at again.

21 In the early review, all comments were

22 in favor of it remaining on the national list. 
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1 Any discussion? Seeing none, we'll move to a

2 vote. Tom?

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: This is a motion to

4 remove nitrogen from 205.605(a). The motion is

5 made by Lisa, seconded by Ashley. It's a motion

6 to remove so a yes vote is to remove, a no vote

7 is to retain, and the voting will start with

8 Lisa.

9 MS. DE LIMA: No.

10 MR. BRADMAN: No.

11 MS. MOSSO: No.

12 MR. ELA: No.

13 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

14 MR. BUIE: No.

15 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

16 DR. SEITZ: No.

17 MR. RICE: No.

18 MS. BAIRD: No.

19 MS. BEHAR: No.

20 MS. OAKLEY: No.

21 DR. THICKE: No.

22 MS. BRIONES: No.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

2 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

3 MS. DE LIMA: Next up is sodium

4 carbonate. Dr. Brines?

5 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This is the

6 final substance under Section 205.605(a), a non7 synthetics allowed, and the listing is sodium

8 carbonate. The last technical report is dated

9 1995. Thanks.

10 MS. DE LIMA: So this is another

11 material we're reviewing early. Sodium carbonate

12 is used as a leavening agent. It can also be

13 used as an anti-caking agent and an acidity

14 regulator and stabilizer, no ancillary

15 substances.

16 And in the public comment from the

17 spring, this round of public comment stated that

18 it is essential for use in things like soy-based

19 extraction, frozen desserts, and baked goods. 

20 And also interesting, used as a pH adjuster in

21 organic laundry detergents.

22 Any questions from the board? Seeing
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1 none, we'll move to a vote.

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: This is a motion to

3 remove sodium carbonate from 205.605(a). The

4 motion was made by Lisa, seconded by Ashley. 

5 It's a motion to remove, so a yes vote is to

6 remove, a no vote is to retain. We'll start the

7 voting with Asa.

8 MR. BRADMAN: I want to keep it, so,

9 no.

10 MS. MOSSO: No.

11 MR. ELA: No.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

13 MR. BUIE: No.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

15 DR. SEITZ: No.

16 MR. RICE: No.

17 MS. BAIRD: No.

18 MS. BEHAR: No.

19 MS. OAKLEY: No.

20 DR. THICKE: No.

21 MS. BRIONES: No.

22 MS. DE LIMA: No.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

2 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

3 MS. DE LIMA: All right. Next up is

4 acidified sodium chlorite. Dr. Brines?

5 DR. BRINES: Thank you; we're now

6 moving to paragraph (b) of Section 205.605. 

7 Paragraph (b) is synthetics allowed, and the

8 listing is acidified sodium chlorite: secondary

9 direct antimicrobial food treatment and indirect

10 food contact surface sanitizing, acidified with

11 citric acid only.

12 The original technical report was

13 completed in 2008, and a more recent technical

14 report for livestock uses was also completed in

15 2013. Thanks.

16 MS. DE LIMA: Ashley?

17 MS. SWAFFAR: Acidified sodium

18 chlorite is one we're doing early again. It's

19 used as a processing aid in wash and rinse water,

20 and for disinfecting food processing equipment,

21 utensils, and other things.

22 Some of the public comment that we got
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1 was that it's used to control food-borne

2 pathogens, to protect consumer health, and comply

3 with FSMA.

4 And then we got another comment again,

5 saying that we should do the comprehensive review

6 of sanitizers, which the materials committee is

7 hoping to do.

8 You know, it's another tool in the

9 toolbox for folks who are compliant with the FSMA

10 in sanitation.

11 MS. DE LIMA: Any discussion?

12 MR. BRADMAN: I'll make a longer

13 statement when we talk about chlorine materials,

14 but I just wanted to reiterate, I do think we

15 need some more review on chlorine materials. 

16 I'll touch on that again; thanks.

17 MS. DE LIMA: All right, we'll move to

18 a vote.

19 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Can you scroll down?

20 Michelle can you scroll down? So this is a motion

21 to remove acidified sodium chlorite from

22 205.605(b). The motion was made by Ashley,
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1 seconded by Lisa. It's a motion to remove, so a

2 yes vote is to remove, and a no vote is to

3 retain, and the voting will start with Joelle.

4 MS. MOSSO: No.

5 MR. ELA: No.

6 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

7 MR. BUIE: No.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

9 DR. SEITZ: No.

10 MR. ELA: No.

11 MS. BAIRD: No.

12 MS. BEHAR: No.

13 MS. OAKLEY: No.

14 DR. THICKE: No.

15 MS. BRIONES: No.

16 MS. DE LIMA: No.

17 MR. BRADMAN: No.

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

19 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

20 MS. DE LIMA: Next up, carbon dioxide. 

21 Dr. Brines?

22 DR. BRINES: Thank you; we're still
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1 under paragraph (b), synthetics allowed, and the

2 listing is carbon dioxide. The most recent

3 technical report for this substance was completed

4 in 2006. Thank you.

5 MS. DE LIMA: Carbon dioxide is used

6 in MAP packaging and storage, freezing of foods,

7 beverage carbonation, as an extracting agent,

8 processing aid, and pest control in grain and

9 produce storage.

10 All public comment received was in

11 favor of retaining on the national list, and this

12 was just reviewed in 2015 by the board and voted

13 unanimously.

14 Any discussion? Seeing none, we'll

15 move to vote.

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: It's a motion to

17 remove carbon dioxide from 205.605(b). The

18 motion is by Lisa, seconded by Ashley. A yes

19 vote is to remove, a no vote is to retain, and

20 the voting will start with Steve.

21 MR. ELA: No.

22 MR. MORTENSEN: No.
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1 MR. BUIE: No.

2 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

3 DR. SEITZ: No.

4 MR. RICE: No.

5 MS. BAIRD: No.

6 MS. BEHAR: No.

7 MS. OAKLEY: No.

8 DR. THICKE: No.

9 MS. BRIONES: No.

10 MS. DE LIMA: No.

11 MR. BRADMAN: No.

12 MS. MOSSO: No.

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

14 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

15 MS. DE LIMA: Next up is chlorine

16 materials. Dr. Brines?

17 DR. BRINES: Thank you; continuing on,

18 paragraph (b), synthetics allowed. The listing

19 is chlorine materials: disinfecting and

20 sanitizing food contact surfaces, except that

21 residual chlorine levels in the water shall not

22 exceed the maximum residual disinfectant limit
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1 under the Safe Drinking Water Act. In

2 parentheses, the materials are calcium

3 hypochlorite, chlorine dioxide, and sodium

4 hypochlorite.

5 The most recent technical report for

6 these materials was completed in 2006. Thanks.

7 MS. DE LIMA: Ashley?

8 MS. SWAFFAR: So chlorine materials

9 are used to disinfect and sanitize food contact

10 surfaces. Some of the public comment that we

11 received is that chlorine materials are the best

12 option for mitigating fungi and molds.

13 These materials are strategically used

14 to ensure food safety. Another one said that

15 organic handlers have the same responsibility

16 with regard to food safety as conventional

17 handlers, only organic handlers have far fewer

18 options when it comes to the materials available

19 to protect food from contamination.

20 And then we received several comments

21 over -- we just reviewed this one too, saying

22 that these are essential materials for their
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1 operations for food safety.

2 And we did get the comment again,

3 asking for a comprehensive review of sanitizers.

4 MS. DE LIMA: Any discussion? Asa?

5 MR. BRADMAN: I just want to make a

6 few comments on these. These are pesticides;

7 they are synthetic pesticides. They are

8 essential, as we hear, for food safety. In that

9 sense, they are important for public health.

10 But I think they represent kind of the

11 trade-offs we have with organic and other

12 settings, when we use toxic materials for public

13 health. It's the same reason we still use DDT

14 for malaria control, the reason why they're

15 spraying organophosphates in Florida for Zika.

16 It's really the same application here,

17 but I think we all understand that they're

18 essential. But there are risks associated with

19 these. Bleach itself is considered an asthmagen

20 by the Association of Occupational and

21 Environmental Clinics.

22 Chloroform in the air is associated
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1 with these chlorine materials. Chloroform is a

2 known carcinogen and a known reproductive

3 toxicant.

4 So we're intentionally using materials

5 in this sector that we know have pretty serious

6 health impacts.

7 There's not much data in the food

8 processing sector, but in California the

9 occupation with the highest occupationally10 acquired asthma is in janitorial services, which

11 involve cleaning products, a lot of bleach and

12 disinfectant use.

13 As probably many of you know, the EPA

14 has been going through process to review

15 sanitizers' use in hospitals. I do a lot of work

16 in child care settings; a lot child care

17 facilities are actually moving away from bleach.

18 So I think there's a really important

19 and essential use for sanitizers, but I think

20 this is a really important issue. It's a case

21 where we're using serious pesticides that have

22 bad impacts; lifelong respiratory disease,
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1 potentially, and other health impacts.

2 I think there really is a need for a

3 comprehensive review, and through the life of

4 organic, which will hopefully be until the end of

5 time, we need to continually review and improve

6 and understand what the implications are of these

7 materials.

8 MS. DE LIMA: Emily?

9 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you so much for

10 that, Asa. That was articulate, well declared,

11 and I hope that that will make the case crystal

12 clear for why we need to add this to our work

13 agenda.

14 MS. DE LIMA: Joelle?

15 MS. MOSSO: Definitely agree with

16 everything Asa just said. I just would like to

17 emphasize right now, it is the best tool from a

18 food safety perspective, and it is essential, as

19 Asa did note.

20 That being said, I think in addition

21 to the comprehensive review that we do with

22 sanitizers, just to emphasize the need, when new
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1 petitions for sanitizers come on, to be diligent

2 and really look at them as, could they be

3 applicable, and what other impacts they may have.

4 Chlorine is definitely a human health

5 irritant. It's also an environmental concern,

6 with waste water discharge, etc. But it is

7 certainly essential and critical at this point,

8 in order to ensure a safe food supply. One of

9 the reasons why the U.S. food system is as safe

10 as it is in comparison to other areas of the

11 world, where people to worry about dying the day

12 after they eat.

13 So I think we need to keep

14 perspective, but certainly an emphasis to find a

15 better solution other than chlorine.

16 MS. DE LIMA: Francis, and then

17 Harriet.

18 DR. THICKE: Yes, thank you, Asa and

19 Joelle; you articulated it very well, and that's

20 the reason why we do need this comprehensive

21 review. I suggest that both Asa and Joelle are

22 part of that review process.
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1 MR. BRADMAN: I accept. I don't know

2 where the time is going to come from, but I think

3 it's an important issue.

4 MS. BEHAR: I already asked you both,

5 but I wanted to also make sure that on that

6 comprehensive review, on the work agenda, that

7 we're also looking at naturals as well as

8 synthetics; so things that are not necessarily

9 already on the national list, because we're

10 allowed to use natural items like vinegar and

11 essential oils; I don't even know what's out

12 there.

13 But there could be, in certain

14 situations -- I'm not necessarily saying in a

15 meat-slaughtering plant where you really do need

16 to have high rates of pathogen kill -- but there

17 could be other places where more natural

18 materials would be maybe even preferred.

19 MR. BRADMAN: I think what you're

20 getting at is the issue we deal a lot with in

21 child care. There are obstacles around where you

22 need to clean, where you need to sanitize, and
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1 where you need to disinfect.

2 And it's important not to use your

3 most harsh materials where you just need to

4 clean, but also follow the rules to where you

5 need to sanitize or yet another level, disinfect.

6 And then of course, for the materials

7 you use for sanitizing and disinfection, they

8 usually need some other level of approval like

9 EPA. And often some natural materials don't make

10 that bar, although in some cases, they may

11 actually meet those criteria, but they haven't

12 been reviewed and approved.

13 MS. DE LIMA: Dave and then Ashley.

14 MR. MORTENSEN: I also want to thank

15 you both; that was really helpful and insightful. 

16 If it was the case that we see increased indoor

17 production of plants, I've seen a lot of bleach

18 used in that environment, to sterilize the

19 restart of the hydroponic system and such.

20 So I think we'll want to be continuing

21 to think of systems level, and I thank you for

22 that rigorous and thoughtful discussion of the
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1 topic.

2 MS. DE LIMA: Ashley?

3 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes, I just want to say

4 why I think the comprehensive review of

5 sanitizers is important, because we hear this

6 every time we look at sanitizers.

7 I just want to stress how critically

8 important chlorine is to stay on the national

9 list now. You know, I also look at this from a

10 small-scale handler perspective. Chlorine

11 materials are readily available; there may be

12 other alternatives, but they might be a crazy

13 system that you have to install.

14 So I hope you guys look at that when

15 you are doing your review, and consider not

16 everyone is a huge manufacturing facility. There

17 are a lot of small scale, on-farm handling

18 facilities.

19 MS. DE LIMA: Joelle?

20 MS. MOSSO: I'll be brief; just to

21 speak to that, there are definitely some natural

22 alternatives, but they do not have the efficiency
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1 that chlorine does. And unfortunately, in most

2 applications would not be appropriate to be used.

3 I think I can speak pretty confidently

4 for people who do use a significant amount of

5 chlorine; it's definitely not their choice to do

6 so. But certainly from a food safety

7 perspective, having read and monitored that for a

8 long time now, nothing so far is anything near

9 equivalent to chlorine.

10 So yes, just to emphasize its critical

11 nature from compliance as well as just safety.

12 MS. DE LIMA: Steve, and then Harriet.

13 MR. ELA: And we are one of those

14 small-scale handlers. I would echo that it's a

15 challenge, and with FSMA now, where we're looking

16 at packing lines that have to have zero

17 contamination, and yet we're dealing with a crop

18 that is inherently outside; it's almost an

19 insurmountable challenge anyhow. And so I think

20 any tool that small processors can have to make

21 it easier is going to be critical.

22 And I echo -- I personally dislike
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1 chlorine. It bothers me, yet I don't know any

2 way around it at this point.

3 MS. BEHAR: Comprehensive will include

4 practical.

5 MS. DE LIMA: All right. It looks

6 like we're ready for a vote.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, this is a

8 motion to remove chlorine materials from

9 205.605(b). All three chlorine materials here

10 are grouped together under the single motion. 

11 The motion was made by Ashley and seconded by

12 Joelle. It's a motion to remove, so a yes vote

13 is to remove, a no vote is to retain, and the

14 voting will start with Dave.

15 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

16 MR. BUIE: No.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

18 DR. SEITZ: No.

19 MR. RICE: No.

20 MS. BAIRD: No.

21 MS. BEHAR: No.

22 MS. OAKLEY: No.
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1 DR. THICKE: No.

2 MS. BRIONES: No.

3 MS. DE LIMA: No.

4 MR. BRADMAN: No.

5 MS. MOSSO: No.

6 MR. ELA: No.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

8 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

9 MS. DE LIMA: Next up, magnesium

10 chloride. Dr. Brines?

11 DR. LEWIS: Lisa, could I make one

12 remark? Just in terms of the conversation, I

13 found this very helpful, talking about chlorine

14 materials related to work agenda item, especially

15 in terms of what you mentioned about

16 understanding the use profile.

17 The EPA may provide some insight with

18 that, in how we can look at this activity in

19 creating efficiencies in customer service.

20 So I'm looking forward in terms of, as

21 we talk about this in the department, some

22 information you provide us now would help us
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1 frame this topic more clearly, so thank you for

2 that.

3 MS. DE LIMA: Dr. Brines?

4 DR. BRINES: All right, thank you. 

5 Next up, also under 205.605(b), synthetics

6 allowed; the listing is magnesium chloride,

7 derived from sea water. And the most recent

8 technical report was completed in 2016. Thank

9 you.

10 MS. DE LIMA: So magnesium chloride;

11 it's used as a coagulant in tofu production. 

12 It's also used in certified organic dietary

13 supplements, vitamins, and in supplement

14 beverages.

15 All the public comment that we

16 received was in favor of retaining it on the

17 national list. There has been public comment

18 requesting that it be moved from 205.605(b) to

19 205.605(a), and that is on our work plan. We're

20 bringing that forward in the spring.

21 And this was another material that was

22 reviewed by the NOSB in 2015, and was voted
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1 unanimously to stay on the national list.

2 Any discussion? Harriet?

3 MS. BEHAR: I like tofu.

4 MS. DE LIMA: All right. Seeing no

5 other discussion, we'll move to a vote.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: It's good to get

7 that on the record, because that hasn't been

8 shared by everyone on the NOSB in the past, but

9 it's good to know.

10 This is a motion to remove magnesium

11 chloride from the 205.605(b). The motion was

12 made by Lisa and seconded by Ashley. It's a

13 motion to remove, so a yes vote is to remove, a

14 no vote is to retain, and the voting will start

15 with Jesse.

16 MR. BUIE: No.

17 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

18 DR. SEITZ: No.

19 MR. RICE: No.

20 MS. BAIRD: No.

21 MS. BEHAR: No.

22 MS. OAKLEY: No.
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1 DR. THICKE: No.

2 MS. BRIONES: No.

3 MS. DE LIMA: No.

4 MR. BRADMAN: No.

5 MS. MOSSO: No.

6 MR. ELA: No.

7 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

9 Zero yes, 15 no; the motion fails.

10 MS. DE LIMA: Next up, potassium acid

11 tartrate. Dr. Brines?

12 DR. BRINES: Thank you. We're

13 continuing on under the synthetics allowed at

14 205.605(b). The listing is potassium acid

15 tartrate, and the technical report was last

16 updated in 2017. Thank you.

17 MS. DE LIMA: Steve?

18 MR. ELA: Potassium acid tartrate is a

19 byproduct of winemaking. It's commonly known as

20 cream of tartare, used in baking. It lit the

21 public comment message board with, I think two

22 comments, all in favor of relisting, so it's
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1 pretty straightforward.

2 And I should note, at the spring

3 meeting, a lot of the public comments were that

4 it was mis-listed, and we had a proposal later on

5 to reclassify it.

6 MS. DE LIMA: Any discussion? Seeing

7 none, we'll move to a vote.

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: The motion to

9 remove potassium acid tartrate from 205.605(b);

10 the motion was by Steve, seconded by Ashley. A

11 yes vote is to remove, a no vote is to retain,

12 and the voting will start with Ashley.

13 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

14 DR. SEITZ: No.

15 MR. RICE: No.

16 MS. BAIRD: No.

17 MS. BEHAR: No.

18 MS. OAKLEY: No.

19 DR. THICKE: No.

20 MS. BRIONES: No.

21 MS. DE LIMA: No.

22 MR. BRADMAN: No.
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1 MS. MOSSO: No.

2 MR. ELA: No.

3 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

4 MR. BUIE: No.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

6 Zero yes, 15 votes no; the motion fails.

7 MS. DE LIMA: Next we have sodium

8 phosphates. Dr. Brines?

9 DR. BRINES: Thank you. This is the

10 last substance under 205.605(b), synthetics

11 allowed, and the listing is sodium phosphates,

12 for use only in dairy foods. The technical

13 report was completed most recently in 2016. 

14 Thank you.

15 MS. DE LIMA: All right. So sodium

16 phosphates; it can have a variety of uses, but

17 it's currently annotated to dairy use only.

18 The material is derived from

19 phosphoric acid; it's used to prevent the

20 separation of water and fat in cheese, so

21 basically, it's an emulsifier in non-fat cheese

22 and milk.
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1 The vote coming out of subcommittee

2 was unanimous to retain on the national list, but

3 there was a split in public comment. 

4 Manufacturers in public comment said that it was

5 essential as an emulsifier in cheese production,

6 also in making high protein smoothies, and

7 stabilizing the product.

8 We also had a lot of public comment

9 concern about human health impacts, questioning

10 its essentiality.

11 I should say we reviewed this as

12 another one of those items that was reviewed in

13 2015, and we did have a technical report done. 

14 Basically, as far as the human health concerns,

15 it was not very conclusive, and wasn't able to

16 single out a phosphate food additive or

17 ingredient and isolate that as one risk factor.

18 Tom, do you have anything to add? Tom

19 and I were both the leads on this material.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: No, I think you

21 summarized it very well.

22 MS. DE LIMA: Okay, questions from the
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1 board? Harriet?

2 MS. BEHAR: Was the subcommittee fully

3 satisfied that the alternatives were not

4 acceptable? Were there certain areas where only

5 the sodium phosphate could be used, but not

6 sodium citrate, for instance, or others?

7 I know I did ask that question of a

8 commenter, but I'm wondering if that discussion

9 was inside the subcommittee, and how you felt

10 about that.

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I don't want to

12 speak for all subcommittee members, but if anyone

13 wants to speak up on the subcommittee?

14 MS. MOSSO: And in regards to the

15 question, yes, that conversation was had,

16 certainly, and I think it was highlighted in the

17 public comments as well, where you saw the actual

18 buffer capacity of sodium phosphates in

19 comparison to the alternative. The closest

20 alternative would be sodium citrate.

21 And so there's a chemical-functional

22 property that is there for sodium phosphates,
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1 that allow it to interact, to provide the

2 properties that are needed in that product.

3 And I personally spoke to people who

4 used it and asked about their challenges on that

5 system, to see if they could find alternatives. 

6 They certainly had investigated it, and looked;

7 but in actuality, they ended up having to use

8 more sodium citrate when trying to use it. So it

9 was not as effective, and you have to closely

10 control how you do that, and it's almost

11 impossible to do in a commercial setting.

12 So irrespective of the chemical

13 properties, which is the buffer capacity, the

14 other alternatives are not sufficient to satisfy

15 the same kind of effect in the food product.

16 MS. DE LIMA: Francis?

17 DR. THICKE: Maybe I'm being a purist

18 here, but when I saw that it's used in cream to

19 get better mouthfeel, I was a little concerned. 

20 We make cream in our on-farm processing plant,

21 and my customers would not like to see something

22 in their cream.
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1 We also make cheese; not processed

2 cheese, but of course, we don't use it. So I'm

3 not going to vote for this product.

4 MS. DE LIMA: Emily?

5 MS. OAKLEY: I think that, in a case

6 like this, although it would take a large

7 quantity of sodium phosphate to potentially cause

8 concern, I also think we should take the

9 precautionary principle.

10 I think that consumers think they

11 might want a product, but they may not know,

12 necessarily, what's in it, and they're trusting

13 us to make decisions on the applicability or

14 necessity of a material.

15 I know that this material is used

16 primarily in processed food, so there is a

17 certain question of essentiality there as well,

18 for me. So I will not be voting for this.

19 MS. DE LIMA: Tom, and then Joelle.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I also know sodium

21 phosphate from a commenter, being used in cream

22 processing plants to prevent the fouling of the
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1 lines. If it's used in the method that you're

2 using, I believe it would be considered an

3 ingredient and at least be labeled at that point. 

4 Although I agree with you, that's not

5 an appropriate use of this material in an organic

6 setting. It would be open to consideration and

7 annotation that would prevent its use in cream

8 for mouthfeel applications.

9 But it is used in a lot of other

10 products in necessary applications, if you want

11 to have those products on the market.

12 MS. DE LIMA: Joelle?

13 MS. MOSSO: Just a comment in regards

14 to essentiality; I think one could argue that

15 meat is not essential either, and there are

16 health implications as well. A vegetarian would

17 not say a meat is an essential item. 

18 I personally am not huge consumer of

19 processed foods, so it's not like I'm an advocate

20 for them. But I will say that it is an option

21 for people to pursue. It's their choice, whether

22 or not to include it. It is used in a very small
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1 fraction of what they are consuming, unless they

2 over-consume, which again is a personal choice.

3 So I just think in argument analysis,

4 when we look at essentiality, I don't know that

5 it is essential to drink alcohol, or essential to

6 have coffee, or essential to eat meat. So I

7 think that wasn't necessarily the same sort of

8 argument, although I do understand where you're

9 coming from.

10 MS. DE LIMA: Emily and then Harriet.

11 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, I agree with what

12 you're saying, absolutely, and let me clarify

13 that. I think that while it would require more

14 of the other material, sodium citrate, I also

15 think that it's probably just a lot easier, also,

16 to rely on this material.

17 I'm not a handler, but I do think that

18 there might be people who would consume these

19 products, who would then also consume,

20 potentially, a large of quantity of other

21 processed materials, in which this material would

22 also appear.
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1 And again, it's just more of a

2 cautionary principle. I also think that it's

3 good that we are not unanimous on everything.

4 MS. DE LIMA: Harriet, and then Tom.

5 MS. BEHAR: I am a little bit torn on

6 this material, but I also see it as a way to open

7 the door to consumers to a variety of products,

8 which then opens the door to more producers to

9 produce raw materials that are certified organic.

10 And so I will be voting for this

11 material. But I hope that there will be other

12 options available in the future.

13 MS. DE LIMA: Tom?

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I just want to

15 speak to Emily's last point. I often find that

16 people look to organics to be the fix-all for all

17 issue out there in the food system, and it's just

18 unfortunately not the best way to solve for the

19 issue of unknown consumption.

20 The best way to address that issue

21 would be to have it published in the nutritional

22 facts panel, which is regulated by the FDA and
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1 unfortunately out of our purview.

2 But I would welcome to see more

3 disclosure in that area. As you know, I always

4 call for more disclosure, not less.

5 MS. DE LIMA: And I echo what Harriet

6 said. Asa?

7 MR. BRADMAN: I echo what Harriet

8 said, but I also like Tom's suggestion that where

9 they use it for mouthfeel and purposes where it

10 might not be listed, it shouldn't be allowed.

11 MS. DE LIMA: Francis?

12 DR. THICKE: I notice that you said

13 it's not used in Europe. Did you get information

14 about how they get by without using it in Europe? 

15 How's their mouthfeel?

16 (Laughter.)

17 MS. DE LIMA: I don't know; they might

18 just not have mac and cheese as organic in

19 Europe, I'm not sure. I mean, we have had this

20 discussion about the difference and --

21 DR. THICKE: Yes, we had that

22 discussion in the spring as well, and it was
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1 mostly around the application of the products. 

2 And there's applications of products common here

3 in the U.S. that aren't in Europe and vice versa.

4 The most common usage that I saw from

5 the comments was from dried cheese products,

6 which might just be an American thing, very much

7 so. But it is a large -- I don't like to name

8 names, but Annie's is a very large company, and

9 people know that name. There are very few

10 American households that won't have some box of

11 mac and cheese in their cupboard somewhere, and

12 that's where it's used.

13 It's also used in those portable

14 cheese salad kits that have those little packets

15 of cheese already processed in there, that allow

16 you to make a salad on the go.

17 While these aren't maybe necessary

18 foods -- we struggle with this with cellulose

19 sometimes too, when you see the cellulose

20 processing on the list. I don't know why someone

21 can't just grate their own cheese instead of

22 buying pre-grated cheese, but convenience is a
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1 part of the American lifestyle.

2 It began with organic products get

3 into consumers' hands in more applications,

4 especially where some of these other materials

5 are labeled and present, consumers can make the

6 choice by reading the label. This only helps to

7 grow the organic marketplace and provide more

8 avenues for farmers to sell their products.

9 MS. DE LIMA: Francis?

10 DR. THICKE: I was just going to say,

11 maybe it does go well with cellulose.

12 MS. DE LIMA: All right, on that note,

13 are we ready to vote?

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right, so

15 there's a motion to remove sodium phosphates from

16 205.605(b). The motion was made by Lisa and

17 seconded by Tom. It's a motion to remove, so a

18 yes vote is to remove, a no vote is to retain. 

19 The voting will begin with --

20 MR. MORTENSEN: Hey, Tom, just a point

21 of clarification, if we can ask. Asa's point

22 about an annotation; does that come after this
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1 vote, then?

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: No; that would have

3 to come as a separate work agenda item, to be

4 requested of the program, added to it, a proposal

5 developed, and then brought as a separate item.

6 MR. MORTENSEN: So that would happen

7 after, or should we vote on this? Or should we

8 have that annotation before we vote? I guess

9 that's my question.

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So we have to vote

11 on sunset items, and move forward sunset votes

12 independent of all those annotations. You'll

13 notice a later vote, coming up around re14 classification of potassium acid tartrate. That

15 was from a previous sunset review we had done,

16 and we had identified that as an additional work

17 stream.

18 Generally, when issues are raised

19 here, subcommittees will make note of it, take it

20 back to the subcommittee, and the subcommittee

21 will have a discussion as to whether or not we

22 should proceed.
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1 So I'm going to re-read the motion

2 just to be clear; motion to remove sodium

3 phosphates from 205.605(b); motion by Lisa,

4 seconded by myself. A yes vote is to remove, a

5 no vote is to retain, and the voting starts with

6 Dan.

7 DR. SEITZ: No.

8 MR. RICE: No.

9 MS. BAIRD: No.

10 MS. BEHAR: No.

11 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

12 DR. THICKE: Yes.

13 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

14 MS. DE LIMA: No.

15 MR. BRADMAN: No.

16 MS. MOSSO: No.

17 MR. ELA: No.

18 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

19 MR. BUIE: No.

20 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

22 Three yes, 12 no; the motion fails.
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1 MS. DE LIMA: Next up, casings; Dr.

2 Brines.

3 DR. BRINES: Thank you; just one point

4 of additional clarification too, in terms of the

5 question about annotation changes. One

6 additional option is that a member of the public

7 could submit a petition to change the annotation. 

8 That's available to any member of the public.

9 So now we're moving on to Section

10 205.606 of the national list. That's the section

11 for non-organically produced agricultural

12 products allowed as ingredients in or on

13 processed products labeled as organic. The first

14 listing is casings from processed intestines. 

15 Thank you.

16 MS. DE LIMA: Asa?

17 MR. BRADMAN: So casings, I think is

18 one of those materials that we generally approve

19 routinely, and I think it will be approved today. 

20 Our committee did approve it when we voted on it.

21 But there's a kind of ongoing

22 frustration with the lack of organic casings
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1 being available, and I think that, based on the

2 comments and some of the discussion we had last

3 spring, there's concern that the continuous

4 relisting of this is preventing the emergence of

5 good entrepreneurs or the development of a market

6 that works for organic casings.

7 I think I will vote to keep this on,

8 but some suggestions have been made that we have

9 a TR or TAP, and I think more in-depth discussion

10 of how we can promote the emergence of

11 organically-available casings for the sausage and

12 meat industry.

13 So that's a succinct summary, I hope,

14 and I guess we're opening it up for discussion.

15 MS. DE LIMA: Steve?

16 MR. ELA: I agree with what you say,

17 but what I heard last spring's testimony, I

18 interpreted differently. It's sort of like the

19 pectin comments we had in public comment, and I'm

20 sure we'll talk about pectin when it comes up.

21 Yes, there are organic animals out

22 there, but the supply chain for casings -- and if
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1 it were all casings were the same -- then it

2 would be simple; organic casings or not.

3 But then when they segregate them on

4 size and classification and things, you start

5 parsing it out until you get to a small fraction. 

6 Then it becomes extremely difficult, especially

7 for a perishable item.

8 And so at least what I heard was, yes,

9 they are out there, but the way the system works,

10 and the way you grade them makes it very

11 difficult to establish that supply chain, just

12 because of the small amount out there.

13 MR. BRADMAN: Right, and that's

14 exactly what I understand too. You said it much

15 better than I did. But still, I think there's a

16 frustration that there's not organic material

17 available. The question is, is there something

18 we or the program can do to try to develop a

19 market and resources to have better sorting,

20 better access to it? That's where I think the

21 frustration stems from.

22 MS. DE LIMA: Tom?
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I share that

2 frustration; I also hear oftentimes the

3 frustration of ranchers who raise cattle for

4 meat, swine, and other items. They struggle to

5 find slaughterhouses that will handle organic

6 products, and that's a huge difficulty.

7 And so compared to a bunch of other

8 areas of organic agricultural growth, I think

9 some of these meat applications have kind of

10 lagged behind. In my mind, there's actually two

11 better ways of going about this. Regulatory and

12 governmental fixes might not always be them.

13 But one is to call upon the trade

14 associations out there and to start looking into

15 it. We did something similar with celery powder,

16 which is also another meat application, to try to

17 get fixes out there from the industry

18 perspective.

19 The other thing is to just eat more

20 organic meat. Sorry to my vegetarian and vegan

21 friends out there.

22 MR. BRADMAN: Yes; I want to be clear
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1 too, that I would retain this material. I was

2 not suggesting we -- at least personally, I'm not

3 going to vote against it. That said, there's

4 this frustration.

5 MS. DE LIMA: Harriet, and then Sue.

6 MS. BEHAR: I'm not on the handling

7 committee, but to me this represents kind of a

8 deficiency with the way we deal with 606 items. 

9 We look to the trade to tell us if

10 it's out there or not. We've looked, but a lot

11 of it, we don't understand what the barriers are. 

12 I agree with you, Steve, in what you said about

13 the size, and maybe it's not close enough to a

14 processing facility.

15 How much of this material do you need

16 to start creating a market for this product? We

17 don't typically get technical reviews on 606

18 items, in order to answer some of these

19 questions. We don't really even have a good

20 checklist, even for the petitioner.

21 I realize this is a sunset item, but

22 as we get new things on 606, to know what to ask
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1 what the barriers are. How could this happen in

2 the future? Because I think that really would

3 give the trade even more information that they

4 need in order to be that list of opportunities

5 for things that they could come in do as organic

6 in the future.

7 So it's not a work agenda item, and

8 I'm not on that committee; but this was one of my

9 little pet peeves, being in the peanut gallery. 

10 I felt that 606 could really be better reviewed,

11 as far as a checklist item, and really think

12 through the real questions that we need to ask in

13 order to understand its placement on that section

14 of our national list.

15 MR. BRADMAN: Yes, I agree with that,

16 absolutely.

17 MS. DE LIMA: Sue?

18 MS. BAIRD: I echo Tom's comments. At

19 least in my part of the world, there are a lot of

20 livestock that are being raised organic, but

21 there's no processing plant. So they lose their

22 organic status category.
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1 I'm not sure this should be addressed

2 at this regulatory. We need federal monies that

3 encourage small processing facilities and/or

4 larger processing facilities in more regions of

5 the United States, so that those farmers who go

6 to the work of raising and feeding their

7 livestock as organic don't have to lose that

8 status at the processing level.

9 If we had more livestock that were

10 certified organic, maybe we would have more

11 casings that are organic. That's my comment.

12 MS. DE LIMA: Tom?

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I have a couple of

14 things I forgot to mention. This is a 606 item,

15 which requires commercial availability searches,

16 regardless. So you always have to go out there

17 and try to find an organic process. And I'm

18 going to go back to the trade association again,

19 where I think in the public comments they called

20 606 an entrepreneurial dream, which is true.

21 I mean, all this takes is an

22 entrepreneur to set this up. You know, look at
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1 the meat products that are out there. You have

2 the certifier's name, call that certifier up and

3 say, Hey, I've got organic casings. Tell your

4 client that they have to source them from me. 

5 And you can charge whatever you want.

6 So that's a little business plan laid

7 out for you; go get the funding and start your

8 private business. Again, regulation isn't always

9 the best way to solve some of these problems. 

10 Markets can solve them for us. The most

11 effective way we've gotten items off the

12 processing list has been from companies that have

13 developed the market, come to us, petitioned us,

14 and had them removed.

15 The other thing I want to add is,

16 while that data request would be great, as

17 someone who, for a profession, sources hundreds

18 of millions of pounds of organic ingredients,

19 that data just does not exist out there. And the

20 request that you would have, the expertise of the

21 panels that we have, are not qualified to do that

22 type of work.
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1 MS. DE LIMA: Dave?

2 MR. MORTENSEN: I guess there is one

3 other thing that hasn't been brought up that's a

4 concern of mine. When we're using conventional

5 animals, we should in the same way that we

6 respect them and think thoughtfully about

7 chlorine, their diet is almost exclusively

8 genetically-modified grains.

9 So we're running 90 percent GMO corn

10 and 97 percent GMO soybean through the animals. 

11 There have been intestinal issues with that in

12 conventional agriculture.

13 I'm quite concerned personally about

14 that, and the co-mingling of GM-dependent

15 cropping systems products in our organic systems. 

16 So I probably will vote not to renew this

17 listing.

18 MS. DE LIMA: Harriet?

19 MS. BEHAR: Just to the point of

20 having more slaughtering facilities; I'm a co21 chair of the State of Wisconsin Organic Advisory

22 Council, and last year, we put on two trainings
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1 for veterinarians, because we had heard from our

2 livestock farmers that they were working with

3 veterinarian who didn't know anything about

4 organic.

5 And so this year, our focus is on

6 doing a training for slaughterhouses in our

7 state, to help them understand what it would take

8 to become organically certified.

9 So just on a little micro-level, it

10 doesn't have to be at a federal level. It could

11 be sections of a community or whatever. And our

12 economic development section of our department of

13 agriculture sees it as an economic development;

14 that's where we're getting the money to put on

15 the training.

16 MS. DE LIMA: All right, I don't see

17 any more discussion. Tom?

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, this is a

19 motion to remove casings from 205.606. It's a

20 motion made by Lisa, seconded by Tom. This is a

21 motion to remove, so a yes vote is to remove, a

22 no vote is to retain. We will begin the voting
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1 with Scott.

2 MR. RICE: No.

3 MS. BAIRD: No.

4 MS. BEHAR: No.

5 MS. OAKLEY: No.

6 DR. THICKE: No.

7 MS. BRIONES: No.

8 MS. DE LIMA: No.

9 MR. BRADMAN: No.

10 MS. MOSSO: No.

11 MR. ELA: No.

12 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

13 MR. BUIE: No.

14 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

15 DR. SEITZ: No.

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

17 One yes, 14 no; the motion fails.

18 MS. DE LIMA: Next up we have konjac

19 flour. Dr. Brines?

20 DR. BRINES: Thank you. We're still

21 under Section 205.606 of the national list, CAS

22 No. 37220-17-0. Thank you
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1 MS. DE LIMA: Scott?

2 MR. RICE: Thank you. Konjac flour is

3 a material derived from the tubers of the

4 elephant yam, primarily grown in tropical and

5 sub-tropical regions. It is a soluble fiber used

6 in traditional foods such as shiritaki noodles

7 and konjac curd.

8 It is also marketed at a zero-calorie,

9 zero-carb alternative to pasta and rice. In

10 other settings, it's used as a binder, gelling

11 agent, thickener, and stabilizer.

12 Earlier this year in the first round,

13 we had asked for input on the products that are

14 making use of this. We really have not heard a

15 whole lot on that. One of the ingredient trade

16 organizations did not have further information.

17 We heard from OTA during their survey,

18 that there is one comment received that it's

19 currently in use as primary ingredient -- not a

20 thickener, and not aware of organic alternatives.

21 So we don't have a lot of information

22 on what and how many products. I'm going to open
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1 it up to discussion.

2 MS. DE LIMA: I'll just add that we

3 did have CCOF say that it was listed on none of

4 their OSPs.

5 MR. RICE: And similarly, other

6 certifiers indicating from their queries that it

7 was not used.

8 MS. DE LIMA: A-dae?

9 MS. BRIONES: Yes, I think this is one

10 of those ingredients that demonstrates our

11 inability to reach certain populations. Coming

12 from Hawaii, I know konjac flour is used in a lot

13 of Asia-based or Japan-based products.

14 And so when I'm talking to people who

15 actually use the product and try to solicit their

16 comments either through our processes; a lot of

17 them may not be familiar with it. So I'm going

18 to vote to not remove it, just because I feel

19 like if we do remove it, we're closing the door

20 before anybody walks in to some of these

21 populations that are kind of outside our reach

22 right now.
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1 MS. DE LIMA: I'm going to call on

2 myself and then Tom. Were any of the folks that

3 you talked to producing products that were

4 certified organic?

5 MS. BRIONES: Yes, two of them.

6 MS. DE LIMA: What kinds of products

7 were they?

8 MS. BRIONES: They were mochi-based

9 desserts, that are sold primarily in Hawaii.

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: That was my

11 question. I was going to vote to take this off,

12 but I was looking for something like that,

13 evidence or someone to come forward saying that

14 they're using it, and the applications they are

15 using it in.

16 Knowing now that it's being used, I

17 think I would take a deeper look at why we can't

18 be making this organic, or where that is. But

19 given that most of our research up to this point

20 was around the question of whether this was being

21 used, I had intended to vote to remove it, but I

22 think I will be voting to retain it.
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1 MS. DE LIMA: Steve?

2 MR. ELA: My sense is that there are

3 organic sources of the flowers, from what I've

4 heard in comments. So I guess the vote to remove

5 doesn't remove it from the availability to use it

6 in a product; it just removes it as a non-organic

7 form. Am I thinking right, Scott?

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Correct.

9 MR. RICE: When I looked at this,

10 there are 11 folks on the operations on the

11 integrity database that offer some form of

12 konjac. As I mentioned in the brief summary of

13 how it's used, those may or may not need the

14 supply that, say, the mochi maker needs. Again,

15 that's data that's challenging to get, but I

16 would say that in some cases, going to the trade

17 is exactly where we need to go to get that

18 information.

19 And as we heard yesterday, they

20 themselves have had a little challenge reaching

21 out. So we may hear something further, but there

22 are few organic supplies.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: And just to

2 clarify, the 11 listings are in the OID database,

3 is that how you got those?

4 MR. RICE: Correct.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: And so those may be

6 brokers of the same product? Someone's out there

7 with it, but it may not be 11 people; it could be

8 less.

9 MS. DE LIMA: Ashley and then Emily.

10 MS. SWAFFAR: A-dae, I just had a

11 question for you; do you know if they've tried to

12 source organic konjac flour, and just can't find

13 the amount they need?

14 MS. BRIONES: I don't have an answer

15 for that; I don't know.

16 MS. DE LIMA: Emily?

17 MS. OAKLEY: I was just going to say

18 that a lot of times, small scale farmers have

19 talked to me or sent me personal emails about

20 hydroponics, for example. And I copy and paste

21 the link to regulations.gov just so that it's on

22 the written record. I don't know if there are
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1 any limitations to technology with anybody you've

2 spoken to, but just to encourage it, even if the

3 docket's closed at that point, to get it on the

4 open docket later.

5 Because then it's more part of the

6 public record, and we can more easily seek

7 information, like the questions that are coming

8 up right now that I don't want to disregard. It

9 will be important to try to get it on the open

10 docket in the future, but thank you for

11 presenting those views.

12 MS. DE LIMA: Dan, and then Tom.

13 DR. SEITZ: So if memory serves, I

14 thought there was a concern that some of the

15 supply was genetically modified. Is that the

16 case? That's sort of lodged in my head.

17 MS. DE LIMA: Scott, you want to

18 answer that?

19 MR. RICE: We didn't get any further

20 information on that being the case. If it's a

21 known commercial variety, that would be something

22 that would be looked at in the certification
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1 process.

2 MR. MORTENSEN: Dan, that's not a

3 transformed plant.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: And even if it was,

5 the non-GMO requirement would still play in a 606

6 item, fully. So an agricultural product that's

7 used in conventional form still cannot be

8 produced with excluded methods.

9 And I just wanted to remind people

10 that commercial availability still applies on

11 606, which means the producer still needs to go

12 out there and do the search and prove to their

13 certifier that the organic forms are not

14 sufficiently available for them.

15 I did have one question for the

16 program, throw you guys on the spot real quick

17 here; I think the past NOSB has passed guidance

18 recommendations on how commercial availability

19 searches should occur for 606 items, and I'm

20 curious to know where that is in the rulemaking

21 or review process.

22 DR. LEWIS: We're aware of that; we're
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1 trying to balance in terms of that issue among

2 other issues that we're working on now. We'll

3 get back to you on that.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you.

5 MS. DE LIMA: Scott?

6 MR. RICE: I neglected to comment; in

7 terms of comments, we did receive a couple of

8 comments. One mentioned the concern around a

9 potential GE source, and just the use of

10 conventional pesticides on conventional konjac.

11 MS. DE LIMA: All right. I don't see

12 any other discussion. Tom?

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay, we'll be

14 moving to a vote. The motion is to remove konjac

15 flour from 205.606, based on the following

16 criteria from the Organic Foods Production Act,

17 Section 2118(c)(1)(A)(ii), essentiality.

18 The motion was made by Scott and

19 seconded by Ashley. This is a motion to remove,

20 so a yes vote is to remove, a no vote is to

21 retain. The voting will start with Sue.

22 MS. BAIRD: Based on A-dae, I'm going
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1 to say no.

2 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

3 MS. OAKLEY: Yes.

4 DR. THICKE: Yes.

5 MS. BRIONES: No.

6 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

7 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

8 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

9 MR. ELA: Yes.

10 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes.

11 MR. BUIE: Yes.

12 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

13 DR. SEITZ: Yes.

14 MR. RICE: No.

15 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

16 Eleven votes yes, four votes no; the motion

17 passes.

18 MS. DE LIMA: And our last sunset is

19 pectin. Dr. Brines?

20 DR. BRINES: Yes, thank you. Wrapping

21 the sunset review for 2019, the very last

22 substance is pectin, non-amidated forms only. 
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1 The most recent technical report for this

2 substance was completed in 2015. Thank you.

3 MS. DE LIMA: Tom?

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So pectin is

5 extracted from citrus and palm fruits, and based

6 on tests that have been given, there is no

7 organic source of organic extracted pectin

8 available.

9 It's used as a gelling agent in jams,

10 preserves, fillings, and other products. The

11 public comment here was fairly extensive in favor

12 of retaining the substance. There were three

13 certifiers who also spoke on behalf of their

14 clients.

15 Several primary users, five trade

16 associations, and an input seller; one of those

17 trade associations was a trade association for

18 pectin.

19 Comments from the producers were that

20 this was necessary, essential, and primarily used

21 in yogurt manufacturers in their fruit preps, in

22 jams and jellies, and by confectioners.
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1 There were questions posed by an

2 interest group around changing the annotation to

3 limit high methoxyl forms of it, and there was a

4 question around the impacts of conventional

5 agriculture when using a conventionally-sourced

6 ingredient.

7 We had some dialogue around organic

8 sources and difficulty within the industry via

9 oral comment yesterday, and they expressed a

10 difficulty in obtaining sufficient raw material

11 of the right amounts to produce and standardize a

12 product out there for commercial sale.

13 Another minor point that we will add

14 to the final notice; there was another ancillary

15 substance category provided in the written

16 comments, which was the presence of organic

17 acids, citric and lactic as a standardizing

18 agent. Those are two materials that are already

19 on the national organic list.

20 MS. DE LIMA: Any discussion? 

21 Harriet?

22 MS. BEHAR: Similar to casings, just
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1 the desire to see this. But in finding out that

2 there's no domestic production of pectin -- it's

3 all made overseas -- was kind of interesting to

4 me.

5 However, coming from lemons and limes,

6 I know that a lot of the organic lime and lemon

7 juice is not produced in the United States

8 either. So I'm just hoping that someone will --

9 it's a little bit harder for us to pressure

10 foreign manufacturers to go organic, than here

11 domestically.

12 But again, I think understanding the

13 challenges to the organic production helps us

14 make those decisions.

15 MS. DE LIMA: Tom, and then Emily.

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Just to add a

17 nuance on that; I think one of those

18 manufacturers was in Europe, and I want to point

19 out that this is also on the European standards. 

20 It's an allowed non-organic ingredient in all

21 products except for meat-based products.

22 MS. DE LIMA: Emily?
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1 MS. OAKLEY: I would in no way

2 advocate for its removal, but it would be great

3 if we could have an organic source of pectin,

4 because peelings are often a source of high

5 concentrations of pesticides in conventional

6 fruits. So it would be great if we could get an

7 organic market for it.

8 MS. DE LIMA: Steve?

9 MR. ELA: A number of years ago, it

10 was listed as high methoxyl, low-methoxyl pectin,

11 and it's interesting with the comments still

12 reflecting that, even though the listing has

13 changed to amidated and non-amidated forms.

14 I would encourage commenters to make

15 sure they follow the new rules in referencing. 

16 And it's one of those products -- and full

17 disclosure, we use pectin. We use an amidated

18 form, because we want to use the reduced sugar

19 recipe.

20 It's a little frustrating; we have to

21 label our products, made with organic, instead of

22 organic, because we're using the amidated form
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1 because it uses less sugar.

2 So it's kind a trade-off with pectin,

3 that they get very difficult. But I'm certainly

4 in favor of relisting it, and I sympathize with

5 the difficulty of trying to find an organic

6 source. You're extracting a little bit of

7 something out of a lot of something. You need a

8 lot of peels to get a little pectin.

9 MS. DE LIMA: Tom?

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Just to echo or

11 repeat what you said; I remember you making that

12 same comment in the spring as well. We received

13 virtually the same comment, word for word. And

14 it wasn't clear if they disagreed with the change

15 to non-amidated, and were just saying we should

16 go back to high methoxyl, or if there were the

17 same comments sent from before.

18 MS. DE LIMA: All right, we'll move to

19 a vote.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: This is a motion to

21 remove pectin from 205.606. The motion was made

22 by Tom, seconded by Ashley. A yes vote is to
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1 remove, a no vote is to retain, and the voting

2 will start with Harriet.

3 MS. BEHAR: No.

4 MS. OAKLEY: No.

5 DR. THICKE: No.

6 MS. BRIONES: No.

7 MS. DE LIMA: No.

8 MR. BRADMAN: No.

9 MS. MOSSO: No.

10 MR. ELA: No.

11 MR. MORTENSEN: No.

12 MR. BUIE: No.

13 MS. SWAFFAR: No.

14 DR. SEITZ: No.

15 MR. RICE: No.

16 MS. BAIRD: No.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes no. 

18 Zero yes, 15 votes no; the motion fails.

19 Real quick, back on the konjac flour;

20 Dr. Brines, can you remind us of the sunset date

21 of that material?

22 DR. BRINES: Yes, the current sunset
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1 date is also March 15th, 2022.

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So based on the

3 sunset recommendation reorganization, this would

4 remain until 2022?

5 DR. BRINES: That's the NOSB

6 recommendation, yes.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you.

8 MS. DE LIMA: All right. Next up

9 we've got our one and only proposal, potassium

10 acid tartrate. Steve?

11 MR. ELA: We just basically approved

12 relisting this, but in the comments, the sunset

13 has come up a number of times that the material

14 is most likely mis-classified. It's currently

15 classified as a non-agricultural synthetic, and

16 the proposal is to move it to an agricultural

17 product.

18 And so public comment was in favor of

19 that; it's pretty straightforward, and I think,

20 if you follow the decision tree put out by the

21 program, it's pretty clear that it should be an

22 agricultural, non-synthetic substance.
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1 MS. DE LIMA: Harriet?

2 MS. BEHAR: So I'm hoping the

3 winemakers out there are paying attention; if

4 this does get moved to 606, we could have organic

5 cream of tartar.

6 MR. ELA: And those were a couple of

7 the public comments, saying exactly that. By

8 putting it in this listing, the availability of

9 an organic product would mean that it would have

10 to be used. So it does help create a potential

11 market for it, whereas its current listing would

12 not.

13 MS. DE LIMA: I think we're ready for

14 a vote. Tom?

15 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: This is a motion to

16 re-classify potassium acid tartrate as

17 agricultural and change its listing from

18 205.605(b) to 205.606.

19 The motion is by Steve, and is

20 seconded by Ashley. A yes vote is to accept this

21 proposal, a no vote is to reject it; and the

22 voting will start with Francis.
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1 DR. THICKE: Yes.

2 MS. BRIONES: Yes.

3 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

4 MR. BRADMAN: Yes.

5 MS. MOSSO: Yes.

6 MR. ELA: Yes.

7 MR. BUIE: Yes.

8 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

9 MR. RICE: Yes.

10 MS. BAIRD: Yes.

11 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes. 

13 So 12 yes, zero no, zero abstain, zero recuse,

14 three absent; the motion passes.

15 MS. DE LIMA: And next up we've got

16 our discussion document on marine materials. 

17 Scott?

18 MR. RICE: Thank you. This was a

19 document that we posted in the spring, and due to

20 our shortened comment time line, we thought it

21 would be helpful to post again to prompt further

22 comment.
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1 We did receive a lot of comment on

2 this, both written and oral. We will be

3 considering that as we move forward and look at

4 how we can best approach this from a consistency

5 perspective, as far as reference, using Latin

6 binomials, and the issue of sustainable harvest.

7 We have not had an opportunity to work

8 further on that document with these recent

9 comments, so I don't have a great deal to report

10 further at this time.

11 MS. DE LIMA: Is there any discussion? 

12 Harriet?

13 MS. BEHAR: We thought that by

14 separating it out by Latin names, it would really

15 give us what we were looking at, but it was very

16 interesting that the public comments revealed

17 that that was actually somewhat of a barrier. 

18 It's difficult to separate them out, and not

19 everyone's using them consistently, so it turned

20 into more of a morass, I think, than we thought.

21 I guess I'm just not following it

22 enough, but this would include also on the Crops
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1 Subcommittee too, the marine products, algae

2 products; would we be looking at sustainability

3 there as well.

4 So it's not just for in-food

5 ingredients; it's also as a crop input, correct? 

6 MR. RICE: Correct, and I think Emily

7 has something to add.

8 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, I was actually going

9 to speak to that, so I'm glad you brought that

10 up. Yes, the crop subcommittee is continuing to

11 look at aquatic plant extracts, and I'll be

12 discussing this over lunch today.

13 We are looking primarily in terms of

14 environmental impact at this point, because I

15 don't think listing Latin binomials, as was

16 stated in the original proposal is practical,

17 given that it's all three classes. So what

18 really be the point of that one?

19 But we'll try to assess what materials

20 are being used, where and how they are being

21 harvested, and then environmental impact. We'll

22 try to determine what might be the most practical
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1 approach for the short term and also the long

2 term. I think we'll probably come out with a

3 discussion document in the spring, in an ideal

4 time frame; and if not, certainly by the fall.

5 But we'll discuss it as a discussion

6 document first to solicit public feedback and try

7 to include a wide variety of stakeholders.

8 MS. DE LIMA: Harriet?

9 MS. BEHAR: Well, I thought we were

10 going to try to separate them out because maybe

11 some of them can regenerate faster than others. 

12 There are so many different details, and I'm not

13 a marine algae farmer, so I have very little

14 experience. I do harvest watercress though, but

15 that's not a -- well, it's not algae, it's a

16 plant.

17 MR. RICE: Well, yes, it is difficult. 

18 I would like to think we could still do that in

19 some capacity, and we'll certainly explore it. 

20 But again, I haven't seen the clearest path just

21 yet, but I appreciate all the input that's come

22 from public comment.
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1 MS. DE LIMA: Emily?

2 MS. OAKLEY: I think that one of the

3 possible clear forward paths forward may be to

4 apply the wild crops standard to all of these

5 inputs, which would probably also entail, to some

6 extent, trying to elaborate on what that might

7 mean.

8 I think that we have a unique

9 situation where we have an input that's being

10 harvested from a wild ecosystem. And so that's

11 quite a bit different from some of the other

12 inputs that are on our list, both handling and

13 certainly in the crops section of it. It just

14 sheds an important aspect of light onto this.

15 MS. DE LIMA: Scott?

16 MR. RICE: To add one other thought to

17 this, maybe to encourage certification of these

18 crops where possible, which would provide greater

19 oversight and address some of the issues that

20 we're talking about.

21 MS. DE LIMA: Okay, so we're going to

22 be moving on to a verbal update from Tom on
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1 tocopherols.

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Tocopherols have

3 been on our work agenda as a possible annotation

4 change or classification change, or additional

5 classifications since work in 2015. We had

6 received comments during the sunset process that

7 tocopherols may be commercially available in a

8 non-synthetic form in addition to its synthetic

9 form, and so we should encourage its use as a

10 non-synthetic.

11 We tried to take that action and added

12 it to the non-synthetic, and we received comments

13 stating that non-synthetic may not be

14 sufficiently available.

15 So then we attempted to keep it on the

16 non-synthetic list, and we received comments that

17 it might be available as agricultural. So we

18 attempted to keep it on all three lists, and got

19 into a debate around listing motions, and whether

20 or not, if it's in a synthetic form, if it's

21 commonly used as a non-synthetic or agricultural,

22 if we were expecting certifiers to do that level
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1 of review.

2 It seems that the general practice is,

3 if it's listed as a synthetic, non-synthetic, and

4 agricultural, forms are generally allowed by

5 certification agents.

6 In the technical review of several

7 materials, the reviews themselves state the most

8 common production method, but may not outline 100

9 percent of all production methods when we do

10 these reviews.

11 In looking at this in its totality, it

12 didn't seem like it sounded like a sensible move

13 to make this annotation change. So the handling

14 committee came to the conclusion not to move

15 forward with the tocopherol annotation change at

16 this time.

17 If there is sufficient commercial

18 availability of this material in another form, we

19 encourage members of the public or industry to

20 petition the NOSB to make this change, and we

21 would take it up at that time.

22 MS. DE LIMA: Thanks, Tom. I don't
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1 know if I'm supposed to ask if there are any

2 questions from the board about that, but it

3 doesn't look like it.

4 We have one last verbal update on

5 ancillary substances used in cellulose.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes, this an update

7 on ancillary substances in general, but

8 specifically about this work agenda item in

9 cellulose.

10 Back in 2015 -- Dr. Brines, please

11 correct me if I'm butchering these dates -- back

12 in 2015, we proposed a work process for the

13 review of ancillary substances. I don't remember

14 if it was 2015 or 2016 when we actually passed

15 it, but it was one those two dates, and forwarded

16 that on to the program for review.

17 That was a work agenda item that had

18 come to us from the program. And since that time

19 and around that time, even before we had actually

20 proposed that, we were also in our reviews and

21 technical reviews. And in our questions to the

22 public asking for ancillary substances that are
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1 used in substances that are on the national list,

2 and have been accumulating these in our reviews.

3 We had been asked to go forward with

4 an ancillary substance review for one material,

5 which was microorganisms, as I recall, and we

6 went forward with that one.

7 However, this proposal was still with

8 the program and we haven't received word back yet

9 from the program on which direction they want to

10 go with. And as we went forward with the

11 cellulose one, we ran into a couple of issues. 

12 Some just related to mistakes during the

13 transition between members and others. So we

14 thought it wasn't prudent to proceed at this

15 time, and we have received a lot of questions

16 from certification agents on how to proceed with

17 guidance, just from the NOSB with the lack of the

18 overall proposal from the program.

19 So in discussion with the program, we

20 decided that it wasn't an efficient use of our

21 time to do these reviews without the program

22 command with guidance on how to handle ancillary
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1 substances in a finalized and formal format.

2 So what we agreed to do, and what we

3 are doing is continuing to accumulate ancillary

4 substances, either via technical review, sunset

5 process, or comments from the public. And at

6 such a time when the program finalizes their

7 review of ancillary substances, we will then

8 begin work on whatever that proposal may be.

9 So at this time, we will not be

10 continuing work on the ancillary substances use

11 in cellulose.

12 MS. DE LIMA: Thanks, Tom. Any

13 questions? All right, that wraps it up for

14 handling, and we'll go back to Tom.

15 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. It's 12:40

16 right now; we will break for lunch, and we'll

17 start back on time at 2:00 with the materials

18 subcommittee. We are in recess.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

20 went off the record at 12:38 p.m. and resumed at

21 2:03 p.m.)

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right. We're
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1 going to come to order. Okay. We're going to

2 come back to order and continue on with our

3 agenda. Up first -- or up next is Materials.

4 Harriet. Harriet Behar for Materials.

5 MS. BEHAR: Hello, Materials

6 Subcommittee. So first I'm going to start with

7 Emily, with research priorities.

8 MS. OAKLEY: All right. This is a

9 reiteration of last year's document, with a few

10 changes, some items removed, some items added,

11 particularly in crops. And before I kind of dug

12 into the public comment, I wanted to reflect on

13 what some of the Organic Farming Research

14 Foundation mentioned with respect to this

15 document. 

16 It wasn't on the board when this line

17 item got added in 2012, but I think it might be

18 nice for us to think about a way to make this

19 document a little more user-friendly as the years

20 go on and the priorities get added, and you know,

21 maybe think about having a certain number of

22 years that they stay on, and then they rotate
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1 off, to make it a little bit more user-friendly

2 for the end readers. 

3 There is included this year an

4 executive summary, which, in the past, the NOP

5 has created. And that hasn't been included in

6 previous proposal listings, but we wanted to put

7 it out there so people in the stakeholder

8 community could see what the USDA is taking to

9 other organizations and broader research

10 community, because they really want a one-page

11 summary. And we know that the broader

12 stakeholder community understands and appreciates

13 our more lengthy language, but we have kind of

14 two different groups who are the ultimate users

15 of this. 

16 Also, we've discussed in the Materials

17 Subcommittee trying to find ways to get this more

18 widely distributed. And Dave, putting you on the

19 spot, but you were going to help with exploring

20 ways of getting this within the broader academic

21 community, so that people understand that these

22 priorities are out there. And I'll let you
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1 comment on that later if you want to -- or now,

2 if you want to. So basically --

3 MR. MORTENSEN: Yeah. Emily, I need

4 to -- still to do that. I've shared -- I have

5 shared it, this document, with the USDA National

6 Institute of Food and Agriculture, which is

7 basically the main competitive grants program for

8 all organic programs, as well as Sustainable Ag

9 and that sort of thing. But beyond that, I have

10 not reached out beyond that group.

11 MS. OAKLEY: Yes, Tom? 

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Would it -- would

13 it make more sense for it to come from you or to

14 come from -- I mean, Paul's kind of serving in

15 this role for us. I mean, I thought that you

16 were going to provide those contacts to Paul, and

17 then Paul in his capacity was going to

18 communicate it -- communicate it out to them. I

19 don't know what's more effective. I mean, your -

20 - this is your world, not mine.

21 MR. MORTENSEN: Yeah. I think -- I

22 think I probably said that I would share it back
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1 to, I think, you, Tom, or Paul. But I was also

2 talking with the National Program Leader folks,

3 because I was running a program there recently,

4 and -- but I will definitely share it with you in

5 the future.

6 DR. LEWIS: Just let me respond to

7 that. What I'll -- what we'll be doing after

8 this is voted on and indeed approved, I'll be

9 sharing with NIFA, National Institute of Food and

10 Agriculture, leadership. So that's what we do

11 every year. We share this with them, and if they

12 have any further questions or discussion, we can

13 work with you, but that's one thing that I'll be

14 doing after this. And I've actually noted this

15 to them, that their leadership is aware of this. 

16 And let me say, I applaud the effort

17 in terms of what the Board has done making an

18 executive summary. I find that helpful to kind

19 of explain very succinctly and easily what's

20 really the gist of what you're preparing. So

21 thank you for doing that.

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: And we just -- we
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1 want to get it out there as widely as possibly. 

2 So any way to get it out there, we're probably

3 very thankful for.

4 MS. OAKLEY: There's another comment

5 that's been brought up the last two years that's

6 not a new research priority but that I think is

7 really germane to this. From the Organic Center

8 asking for or demanding, whichever word you

9 prefer, organic representation on U.S. research

10 boards. 

11 So that's really a question for Paul. 

12 How might we begin that conversation to ask for

13 representation on USDA research boards? Because

14 I don't think it's a specific research priority,

15 but it's something that's been noted repeatedly

16 and I think would help accelerate these goals.

17 DR. LEWIS: Thank you. So I know we

18 spoke about this before. Let me kind of bring

19 that back to the Department and think about how

20 we can play a role in that. So thank you. 

21 MS. OAKLEY: So I'm going to just

22 bring up a couple of the new research priorities
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1 that had been mentioned, both in public comment

2 here and written comment and on the webinar.

3 Those are ecology of marine algae used

4 in organic products and production that can lead

5 to appropriate limitations on their harvest and

6 culture. 

7 The organic, economic development

8 opportunities that exist, which I think Handling

9 definitely illustrated today in our conversation. 

10 Soil health, biodiversity, and

11 potential impacts. And I would also add to that,

12 the degree to which biodiversity is being

13 explored and augmented on farms in positive ways.

14 And research -- this is also a more

15 broad one, but emphasizing that research be done

16 with farmers, which I think is important.

17 I think that, to kind of circle back

18 to what the Organic Farming Research Foundation

19 mentioned on the webinar, you know, as this now

20 becomes in its fifth or sixth year, we want to

21 think about, you know, what priorities have truly

22 gotten research traction and which ones need more
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1 focus in the future.

2 So in terms of priorities that are

3 listed that got some pretty broad support,

4 alternatives for methionine, alternatives for

5 copper, biodegradable biobased mulch film

6 research, organic livestock breeding --

7 definitely a big one -- alternatives to

8 antibiotics, celery powder, chlorine materials.

9 So I think, you know, rather than

10 trying to go into too much degree of support for

11 this, I think the general consensus is that the

12 community appreciates this document. But I again

13 just want to stress that we try to find maybe a

14 more robust way of streamlining it in the future

15 too, without taking out the heart and soul of it

16 as well.

17 Any questions or a discussion?

18 Asa? I'm sorry. Yep. 

19 MR. BRADMAN: Just one discussion

20 item. I thought Mark Lipson's comments on the

21 webinar were very interesting, and his suggestion

22 that there be, perhaps, some sort of external or
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1 peer review of the process. And it kind of

2 echoes what you -- what you already said, but

3 that seemed like, to me, like a good idea, to do

4 that. And also, I think a similar review might

5 be also conducted to the extension programs

6 nationally, and you know, how a larger system can

7 better serve organic. 

8 I guess I'll take that one level

9 higher too. In my world, for example, the

10 Department of Pesticide Regulation in California

11 asked the National Research Commission and the

12 National Academy of Sciences to perform an

13 external review of their own risk assessment

14 procedures. 

15 So you know, depending on what level

16 this went to, we could even bring something to

17 the National Academy of Sciences or the NRC and

18 say we want a formal external review of resources

19 going into research to support organic, what's

20 effective, what's not. And maybe these

21 recommendations are a piece of it, but it seems

22 to me that could be a document both to understand
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1 how to improve the system and also a basis for

2 obtaining more resources to implement it.

3 MS. OAKLEY: Asa, I think you just

4 volunteered for that.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MS. OAKLEY: Right? Seriously. Any

7 other comments or discussions?

8 MS. BEHAR: This is another place for

9 the open docket, again, to the greater community,

10 if there are things that come to mind, you don't

11 have to wait for us to have a discussion document

12 to bring it to our attention.

13 MS. OAKLEY: Steve.

14 MR. ELA: Well, and I think Mark is

15 great. And Organic Farmers Foundation -- I was

16 on the board, and they do a lot of that bird17 dogging of paying attention to how many, you

18 know, dollars of research are going into

19 organics. And I think, you know, they're a great

20 liaison to both feed this into, but then also to

21 pull data back out of. 

22 I mean, just like Asa's talking about,
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1 they do pay attention. Where are these dollars

2 going? And we should probably get some of that

3 data from them so that we know, you know, are

4 some of these projects being funded through OREI,

5 and you know, so I think maybe a little more

6 linkage there, just on a data exchange, would be

7 useful.

8 MS. OAKLEY: I think you just

9 volunteered for that too.

10 (Laughter.)

11 MS. OAKLEY: Any other -- Yeah. Asa?

12 MR. BRADMAN: Just one follow-up

13 comment. I mean, I think the estimation now that

14 organic is about five percent of food sales in

15 the U.S. So maybe five percent of the USDA

16 research budget should be dedicated to supporting

17 and you know, improving organic.

18 MS. BEHAR: There actually is a marker

19 bill put in by Chellie Pingree. I'm not sure how

20 many co-sponsors, but it's a bipartisan bill to

21 increase organic research to $50 million. And

22 there was a lot of discussion in the community of
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1 the -- kind of the policy side of whether to tie

2 it to. And we, of course, felt that we should be

3 even higher than our sales. But I believe we're

4 like 0.2 percent right now, of the research

5 dollars -- agricultural research dollars go to

6 organic. But if our argument is, what we learn

7 in organic is useful to conventional farmers, but

8 it's not always vice versa.

9 MR. BRADMAN: Absolutely.

10 MS. OAKLEY: Anybody else?

11 Tom.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I know we've had

13 NIFA at our meetings in the past before. Is it

14 also a good idea to invite them, perhaps, to a

15 meeting, as well?

16 MS. OAKLEY: Paul.

17 DR. LEWIS: You know, I'll leave it up

18 to the board's discretion. I know we had Sonny

19 at a Board meeting, I think about, maybe two

20 years ago. Right, so I can present this to him,

21 and I think it'd be great to kind of hear what

22 they're doing. And, actually, I think, and kind
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1 of sharing some of the dialogue that's not really

2 reflected in the executive summary here, in terms

3 of what Asa mentioned about an AMS review,

4 getting researchers involved in other areas. So

5 yeah. I'm happy to kind of talk about that and

6 Sam consult about it. So that'd be very helpful. 

7 I think it -- I think I found it very helpful for

8 the Board to kind of hear what's happening in

9 that arena.

10 MS. OAKLEY: Thank you. 

11 MR. MORTENSEN: I think it could be. 

12 If we were going to do that, I would suggest that

13 maybe we take a step down or two from the

14 National Program -- the guy in charge of the

15 whole thing, so that we get a bit more of an on16 the-ground connection. So, that would be someone

17 like the person at the -- the National Program

18 leader for the Organic Research Initiative or

19 something like that, rather than Ramaswamy, in my

20 opinion.

21 DR. LEWIS: Right. So, what -- when

22 I've been on panels where there is a National
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1 Program lead, and describing like the grant

2 process -- so really getting into that component. 

3 That might be helpful. They're broken down, as

4 you know, by disciplines. So we can talk about

5 who would be the best -- or people to have that

6 type of conversation.

7 MR. ELA: Just -- and one last

8 comment, I mean, you know, in the research

9 community, again, you know, all those proposals

10 go in. And they need peer reviewers. And I've

11 served in that capacity. And I think it's very

12 useful for the organic community to continue to

13 serve on those panels. Because the only way you

14 can say, does this -- does this proposal have

15 relevance to our constituents, is to be able to

16 feed back through that. And those peer reviews -

17 - or relevancy reviews, I should say, are -- you

18 know, they carry a lot of weight in that decision

19 process. So it takes more time, and we all have

20 infinite time and you know, love to volunteer for

21 more things. But I think that's -- getting on

22 those lists I think is really -- I don't want to
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1 say a back-door way, but it's another way to

2 support the system for organic research. You

3 know, making sure proposals fit.

4 MS. OAKLEY: Other comments or

5 discussion?

6 Are we ready to vote?

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. We have a

8 motion to adopt the proposal on the 2017 NOSB

9 research priorities. It was made by Emily and

10 seconded by Dave. Voting will start with A-Dae.

11 A yes vote is to approve the proposal. 

12 A no vote is to reject it.

13 MS. BRIONES: Yes. 

14 MS. DE LIMA: Yes. 

15 MR. BRADMAN: Yes. 

16 MS. MOSSO: Yes. 

17 MR. ELA: Yes. 

18 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes. 

19 MR. BUIE: Yes. 

20 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes. 

21 DR. SEITZ: Yes. 

22 MR. RICE: Yes. 
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1 MS. BAIRD: Yes. 

2 MS. BEHAR: Yes. 

3 MS. OAKLEY: Yes. 

4 DR. THICKE: Yes. 

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes. 

6 Fifteen yes. Zero no. The proposal is adopted.

7 MS. BEHAR: The next item on the

8 agenda is adding additional excluded methods to

9 the Excluded Methods Guidance Document that we

10 have requested the NOP put together. So, just to

11 remind everyone, there was a lot of work done

12 over the last couple of years on -- not

13 redefining, but adding to our current definition

14 of what an excluded method is, which, for if

15 people don't know, it is -- relates to genetic

16 modification. And the technologies around

17 genetic modification have really changed and

18 changed focus. A lot of it used to be taking a

19 gene from a different species and plucking it

20 into something different. But now there's a lot

21 of internal gene manipulation, turning genes on

22 and off, moving them here and there. 
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1 I, truthfully, am not a genetic

2 scientist. So I can't even speak all of the

3 language, but we knew that we needed to have

4 something that would keep up with all those

5 changes, so that we would hold that line to

6 genetic manipulation by human methods, besides

7 hybridization, to remain excluded in organic

8 production.

9 So this proposal was to add

10 cisgenesis, intragenesis, and agroinfiltration to

11 the list of excluded methods. And we did get

12 quite a few comments. The previous list had

13 about ten items -- or no. One, two, three, four,

14 five, six, seven, eight, nine items on it where

15 we had evaluated them to a criteria -- four

16 different criteria for deciding if an item is

17 produced through an excluded method. 

18 And so we did the same for these three

19 items that are in this proposal. And we listed

20 which criteria we used to make that

21 determination. However, it was pretty universal

22 public comment, that people wanted a clear
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1 definition, especially around cisgenesis, to make

2 sure that everyone knew what we were talking

3 about when we were referring to these terms,

4 especially around the -- anything that's a

5 product of cell fusion. 

6 And so we, I think, will talk about

7 that here. I would like to have discussion

8 amongst the Board to see if we feel that we need

9 to be giving definitions to everything that we

10 add. Do we need just for cisgenesis because

11 there's confusion about whether or not it

12 includes cell fusion? And if we decide to have

13 definitions for everything that we want the

14 National Organic Program to put in, do we need to

15 go back and give definitions for the other seven

16 items that we had approved to go in that document

17 before?

18 So I guess I'll leave that open for

19 discussion.

20 DR. SEITZ: So a process question,

21 maybe to the NOP, can you adopt a document and

22 then continue to work on it and put it out in
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1 revised form? So for instance, if we thought

2 this was basically correct, but we wanted to --

3 so we wanted to adopt it, but we thought that it

4 would be helpful to include some definitions down

5 the road, could we do that in that two-step way,

6 or would it be better to send it back to

7 committee?

8 DR. LEWIS: Right. I mean, I think

9 that the challenge will be if you -- if you have

10 a document that the Board feels requires further

11 clarity -- that requires further clarity. So you

12 know, maybe a challenge, let's kind of move

13 forward if noting that you're continuing work in

14 the area.

15 MS. BEHAR: Tom.

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I am a creature of

17 consistency, or at least I like to think of

18 myself that way. So because we didn't have

19 definitions for the first set, I'm fine with

20 moving this forward. If we do feel like we need

21 definitions, I think we should go back and do

22 them for all of them. And while I understand the
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1 -- what was the exchange that happened just here,

2 but this is somewhat a document that's in

3 process, because it has several TBD materials

4 that we're going to continue to work against. 

5 And so you know, it's not -- it's not as final

6 as, say, some other proposals we put forward,

7 because there's still -- there's clearly

8 additional work that we plan to do.

9 MS. BEHAR: Emily.

10 MS. OAKLEY: If we were to include

11 definitions, what definitions would we use? 

12 Where would we source them?

13 DR. LEWIS: So I can try to help with

14 that. If you want to have a conversation with

15 some experts in that area, I can reach out to

16 colleagues at USDA, especially such as National

17 Institute of Food and Agriculture and others,

18 that would be people that either do research in

19 this area or have that type of technical skills

20 that -- to help you understand in terms of what

21 the scope of the definitions that they are in the

22 biotechnology arena.
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1 MR. MORTENSEN: And I'm of the opinion

2 that I think the definitions would be really

3 helpful. So -- and I think, it would seem to me

4 that we could take a crack at them with the

5 capacity of our group, consulting with

6 geneticists that could help inform, and then

7 maybe meeting with some -- one or two folks to

8 like, really go over it and see if they're

9 defensible and really accurate and consistently

10 rigorous across the definitions, which, right now

11 they're kind of a little uneven, I would say, the

12 ones that are in here. Yeah. 

13 MS. OAKLEY: I'm sorry. Could I ask

14 him a follow-up to that? So do you think that

15 there's any chance that if we came up with a

16 definition, it might not keep up with the times? 

17 Because I guess that's my concern about it.

18 MR. MORTENSEN: Is this okay that we

19 have a dialogue? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. That

20 would be a concern, Emily. The field is

21 exploding. The number of new methods that are

22 coming. And I think we're only, like, on the
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1 front edge of it. So I think Tom's exactly

2 right. This is a -- I think we need to see this

3 as a living document that we're constantly

4 revisiting to update it to be sure that the

5 latest things that people are doing are -- you

6 know, whether we pass on those or not. Yeah. 

7 MS. BEHAR: Sue. Then Tom.

8 MS. BAIRD: Yeah. I -- my feeling is

9 that definitions definitely would help. I

10 appreciate the Program's telling us that they can

11 bring in some experts. And of course, Dave and

12 his group are experts, but most of us are not. 

13 And it would -- and I'm thinking certifiers and

14 things. So if they had a definition, something

15 that they could at least hang their hat on, it

16 would help. As to Tom's comment that we might

17 have to go back -- because I agree, Tom, we need

18 to be consistent, I think that it would be

19 advantageous for us to go back and put

20 definitions on all of them. I'm thinking as a

21 certifier, as an uneducated person.

22 MS. BEHAR: Tom.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yeah. I mean, to

2 respond to some of the points about needing

3 flexibility -- I mean, it's -- you brought up

4 some points I was going to bring up, Sue, that, I

5 mean, we -- this is put out to the public, to

6 certifiers to make, you know, the certification

7 decisions. When adopted by the Program, we put

8 out the certifiers to make certification

9 decisions. So like, it needs to be clear to them

10 what methods we're using. And definitions would

11 probably help. 

12 So with the avenue of pursuing

13 guidance as opposed to rulemaking was where, I

14 think, we looked for the flexibility of being

15 able to quickly address new materials, since it

16 didn't have to go through the rigorous -- as

17 rigorous and laborious of a review process as

18 rulemaking does. 

19 And so you know, I don't think the

20 intent was to not define these to make them wide

21 and unclear. I think it was not -- I just don't

22 think we -- it wasn't a critique that I remember
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1 receiving when we passed this originally. But

2 the flexibility came from the format that we were

3 looking at for -- in the sense of guidance.

4 MS. BEHAR: Other comments?

5 Asa.

6 MR. BRADMAN: Just, in general, I

7 think definitions are a good idea, just so

8 there's clarity and you know, sometimes in our

9 group we'll spend hours arguing over a single

10 word -- and just to make sure there's a common

11 understanding. But at the same time, I don't

12 think this is something that has to be a huge

13 effort, that we can get consultation, we can get,

14 you know, properly defined terms, in terms of

15 these methods, and then that can go into the

16 guidance document. It doesn't have to be, you

17 know, an extensive, you know, review and

18 evaluation of what each method is.

19 MS. BEHAR: Scott. Then Dan.

20 MR. RICE: Yeah. Some of the comments

21 I was going to make have already been made, but

22 just to reiterate that, you know, there is --
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1 it's much easier to make a decision when you have

2 that clarity, but also recognize that as the

3 technology evolves, those can become outdated. 

4 So I really like the idea of keeping this as that

5 kind of working document idea. I think that

6 would be very helpful and again, to be

7 consistent, having for -- defining some, defining

8 all.

9 DR. SEITZ: Yeah. I echo both of

10 those comments -- the last two comments and would

11 hope that this, we could put this out in six

12 months, knowing that it might not be perfect, but

13 that it's important to have a statement out there

14 about genetic modification.

15 MS. BEHAR: Dave.

16 MR. MORTENSEN: Scott's point is a

17 very good one, I think. And that is that -- what

18 I'm hearing Scott say, that a definition alone

19 may not provide enough information -- maybe I'm

20 reading into it, but may not provide enough

21 information to base the certification decision. 

22 So when we think about writing these up, maybe we
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1 just be sure that we're communicating well enough

2 that whatever else is needed would be provided in

3 the updated document. For example, some obscure

4 definition of a genetic manipulation technique

5 may not be very helpful in making a certification

6 decision. Maybe the thing that needs to be known

7 is that there was a molecular intervention of

8 some kind that, you know -- that, basically,

9 these nine things fall out immediately. The

10 definitions don't even matter that much.

11 MS. BEHAR: Well, I'm wondering if we

12 just made a non-substantive change by saying

13 cisgenesis, not to include cell fusion, which was

14 never our intention, that we could then be able

15 to pass this document now and then work on a

16 further guidance document that would include

17 definitions.

18 MS. OAKLEY: Actually, Harriet, you

19 just said, like, exactly what I was going to say. 

20 So that's a good question.

21 MS. BEHAR: We are all looking at Dr.

22 Lisa Brines.
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1 DR. BRINES: So to clarify, the

2 question is whether making a notation in the

3 proposal that was put forward for public comment,

4 that it was the intent of the Subcommittee to

5 exclude the topic of cell fusion, would be a

6 substantive change or not. Probably a matter of

7 opinion. And the concern with delaying this for

8 another six months till the next meeting.

9 MS. BEHAR: I suppose it wouldn't hurt

10 to just put it off, but I know that that was not

11 our intention, to have cisgenesis include cell

12 fusion.

13 MS. OAKLEY: I don't know. I'm just a

14 big fan of progress. And I also know that what

15 happens when things come back is they require

16 more work than we think they will, and it just

17 delays us in other things. But I also want us to

18 get it right. But -- so putting both those out

19 there.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Let's give them a

21 moment to consult, to huddle. We need some hold

22 music.
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1 MR. RICE: Francis, do you have your

2 trumpet?

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I think Dan offered

4 to sing us a song.

5 MS. BEHAR: And that was most of the

6 public comment, was asking for that clarification

7 on cisgenesis. There really wasn't public

8 comment on, we need a better definition for

9 intragenesis or agroinfiltration.

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Does -- before we

11 get an answer on this, too -- we still have cell

12 fusion listed as a TBD. Correct? And that's the

13 same cell fusion we're talking about?

14 MS. BEHAR: Yeah. 

15 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So I mean, that --

16 MS. BEHAR: So -- but many felt that

17 it fit under the cisgenesis.

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yeah. I get that. 

19 I just -- I want to make sure the Program's aware

20 of that, before they're about to answer a

21 question that, you know, as part of this

22 document, we have it published that cell fusion
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1 is separate and as a TBD.

2 DR. BRINES: Yes. That's true. And

3 there's also a document in the Program handbook

4 that addresses cell fusion and establishes

5 current NOP policy on that issue. I think Paul

6 wanted to say a few words in terms of timing.

7 DR. LEWIS: Right. It may be

8 beneficial to have this topic discussed again at

9 the next meeting so we can bring together other

10 experts from the USDA community who are working

11 in the biotechnology arena to help explain some

12 of these technologies to you as a group. So I

13 wanted to bring that up. Especially, I know that

14 some parts of the department have interest in

15 what you're doing here. So I just wanted to

16 raise that to your attention.

17 MS. BEHAR: So what you're saying is,

18 they -- will we have a panel? Or what are you

19 looking -- looking at to help us understand?

20 DR. LEWIS: At a subcommittee level,

21 if we have a subcommittee meeting, as an example,

22 we can bring on an expert or two, in terms of
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1 helping to explain what some of these topics are

2 from a definition standpoint.

3 MS. BEHAR: Well, I think we have a

4 pretty good understanding of what we were

5 excluding, because we used the criteria. But we

6 didn't specifically define it as a method. We

7 said, it fit this criteria. And I know that we

8 did actually receive, through public comment,

9 quite a few good definitions. 

10 But a lot of it was because there was

11 internal nucleus manipulation in most of these. 

12 And that's what threw it into the criteria that

13 made it an excluded method. The exact method of

14 that nucleus manipulation is not being defined,

15 but it is a human manipulation at a genetic level

16 of the nucleus of those cells. 

17 So I feel like we don't need so much

18 of an education of what they are. We -- because

19 obviously we wouldn't have decided if they met

20 the criteria if we didn't have a pretty good

21 understanding of what it was. But the public was

22 saying that they felt that definitions would be
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1 useful to them, rather than meeting criteria. 

2 And Tom, I think, spoke to, rather

3 than defining something and then saying it is not

4 allowed, we set it up instead as -- as new

5 methods met the criteria -- that's when they

6 would be excluded. So that actually helps a lot

7 with -- as they maybe change a little bit or

8 whatever. But they still have that basic

9 criteria that they meet that puts them into the

10 excluded method list.

11 Am I making sense? Okay. 

12 DR. SEITZ: You know, if this change

13 that you mentioned, which was intended, it

14 doesn't amount to a substantive change -- and I

15 don't know if a decision was made on that -- it

16 does seem to me that it would be preferable to go

17 ahead with this and then have this with the

18 understanding it's a working document. 

19 But I don't know if it was a -- I

20 mean, you said that it's a toss-up whether it's a

21 substantive change or not. I mean, if you want

22 to leave it to us, that's -- 
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1 (Laughter.)

2 DR. SEITZ: -- that's fine.

3 DR. BRINES: Yeah. Some issues are

4 not so black and white. They're more along a

5 spectrum. I guess that my -- I don't know

6 whether it would be a substantive change or not

7 at this time. 

8 I'm not clear on what the harm would

9 be in delaying a decision on this topic, given

10 that the Board has several items that could be

11 added going forward. There's still a lot of TBD

12 decided. It seems like the Board -- rather, the

13 Subcommittee was clear on what their intent was

14 with the proposal. So from that perspective, it

15 would not be a substantive change. 

16 But given that there might have been

17 some confusion from other stakeholders about what

18 is intended because of the lack of definition,

19 I'm not sure what the harm is for exploring that

20 at a future meeting. So -- that's just what to

21 think about. 

22 I don't -- timing-wise, I don't think
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1 a delay of six months is going to impede progress

2 by the Program in taking action on this, given

3 that there's still more work to do before we

4 would be able to implement any recommendations.

5 MS. BEHAR: Emily.

6 MS. OAKLEY: Well, I was just going

7 to echo what Dan said.

8 MS. BEHAR: Other comments? 

9 Well, my comment would be in response

10 to Dr. Lisa, that I know that the organic

11 community wants to see us moving forward on these

12 items, and we try to take little bites for each

13 meeting. And so I think we would like to move

14 ahead and vote.

15 Joelle.

16 MS. MOSSO: Just something to ponder

17 is that the USDA, with their team of experts, is

18 offering to help with the definitions of a

19 technical field that we may at a further point

20 regret not having accepted.

21 MS. BEHAR: I think that we could go

22 ahead and vote on this and then have on our work
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1 agenda, providing definitions at the next

2 meeting, as well as possibly taking yet another

3 little bite on some of the other to-be4 determined, perhaps even the cell fusion, just to

5 address the public concern over clarity in that

6 specific area. Because it was just that one that

7 we received most of the comments on. It wasn't

8 the other two items. It wasn't the other seven. 

9 It was specifically on that one.

10 Joelle.

11 MS. MOSSO: I will also say that a lot

12 of these genetic techniques are very new, and

13 there's probably not a lot of people in a

14 community that's non-GMO that follow it. So I

15 think we should just keep that in mind as well. 

16 Like, I constantly keep seeing new techniques

17 that are in the news. And I mean, I took a lot

18 of genetics. I never learned anything about

19 them. So I just think we should keep that in

20 mind too, because it is rapidly evolving, and our

21 population base would be biased in that they

22 don't pay attention to that necessarily.
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1 MS. BEHAR: And I think the intention

2 of this document is that the to-be-determined

3 list will be, perhaps never-ending, but it will

4 at least always be growing, as we become aware of

5 new methods that we might want to consider.

6 Paul.

7 DR. LEWIS: I like the conversation

8 about the flexibility, because I mean, I think

9 what we're all seeing in this emerging

10 technology, there's advances occurring daily that

11 we're not aware of. And to have that flexibility

12 in technologies coming about -- and even as you

13 develop your definition, think about not having

14 something that's so set, where you know that

15 certain methodologies will be changing over time

16 -- I think that will be a helpful exercise, I

17 think, for all of us.

18 MS. BEHAR: Another thing that I can

19 see, perhaps, would be when we are developing

20 definitions, that we make sure we are including

21 the criteria that we've used. And so that would

22 then meld better with the current document that
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1 we have, because there are definitions out there,

2 but they may not be using the same criteria that

3 we are having here. So that way, that would

4 bring the consistency -- I see Tom shaking his

5 head. So that's -- I always like to see him in

6 assent.

7 Steve.

8 MR. ELA: I'm struggling with this,

9 because I would like to see it passed. And yet

10 given our track record of trying to develop

11 definitions that are not -- I mean, these should

12 be pretty straightforward, but it is an evolving

13 technology that -- and I'm not sure it is a slam14 dunk. And so I'm personally hesitant to pass

15 something that we say we're going to define

16 later, knowing that sometimes making definitions

17 is not always as easy as it might seem. So it --

18 I guess I'm torn, but I'm kind of leaning

19 towards, I'd rather see it all in one document at

20 the same time.

21 MS. BEHAR: Joelle.

22 MS. MOSSO: Just to, kind of, echo
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1 what Steve is saying, is that the public also

2 hasn't seen those definitions. So they haven't

3 had comment. They've had comment on these terms,

4 but not necessarily the actual definition.

5 MS. BEHAR: Yeah. Next -- at the next

6 meeting, we would have it as a public docket to

7 have those definitions in place. But we -- I

8 mean, I feel like we do -- we have the criteria. 

9 We have reviewed it to the criteria, similar to

10 what we did for the other seven. So I don't -- I

11 think that it's -- and it's also very clear that

12 cell fusion has been pulled out. So even though

13 the public was confused, we have said that we

14 haven't decided on cell fusion and not considered

15 it part of cisgenesis.

16 MS. MOSSO: I think -- I mean, I think

17 I'm just -- going from a process perspective,

18 though, I find it rather odd. I mean, I have no

19 opposition to any of -- getting rid of these

20 things. It's just more from a process

21 perspective, is that the public hasn't seen the

22 definition. So they haven't commented on it. 
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1 Not that that would necessarily change the

2 outcome. I wouldn't expect it to. I just think

3 from a process perspective.

4 MS. BEHAR: Other comments?

5 Emily.

6 MS. OAKLEY: I would just say that

7 it's better that we're unanimous on this vote. 

8 So if there's anyone who couldn't vote on it

9 today, even though I think we -- I would like to

10 vote on it, if there are others that couldn't,

11 it'd be better to send it back -- which is not

12 what I want to do, but I'm just saying.

13 MR. MORTENSEN: I'll just kind of

14 throw my two cents in. I actually like the idea

15 of having a document that is a living document,

16 and it's quite clear here that the following

17 methods are under review. In some ways, to me,

18 that's inviting input from our community. We

19 haven't -- we haven't finished that body of work

20 yet, and I think it's inviting folks to

21 contribute. It's also inviting folks, in my

22 view, to say gosh, why didn't you include these
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1 other three methods that are not in your -- in

2 your table on methods -- will continue to be

3 researched. So I'm of the opinion that it's sort

4 of inviting comment and engagement with our

5 community. And that's a good thing. So I'm

6 ready to vote. So I guess it's a fundamental

7 difference of view on how finished it should be.

8 MS. BEHAR: Steve.

9 MR. ELA: Sorry. As a matter of

10 order, would it be appropriate to make a motion

11 to send it back to committee, vote on that? If

12 that vote fails, then I'm comfortable with going

13 ahead and voting on the proposal, and you know,

14 and I would probably vote for it at that point. 

15 My preference would be to send it back, but I'm

16 not going to vote no.

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yeah. That's a

18 method we could use. If you -- if we do not want

19 to vote on this item at this meeting, we will

20 need to send it back to the Subcommittee. 

21 Otherwise, you know, it's a seconded motion from

22 the Subcommittee. So we will proceed to a vote
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1 when we're done discussing it.

2 MR. ELA: I mean, I would be willing

3 to make that motion and vote on it. If the vote

4 fails, I'm willing to vote, you know, for it. 

5 But I sense some ambiguity in the Board of

6 whether we want to vote on it today or not. So I

7 would make a motion to send it back to committee.

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I have a motion. 

9 Is there a second?

10 MS. MOSSO: Seconded.

11 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So I have a motion

12 to refer this proposal back to the Materials

13 Subcommittee. It was made by Steve and seconded

14 by Joelle. Any further discussion?

15 You're still running it, Harriet.

16 MS. BEHAR: I would like some clarity

17 from the Program on what is an open document. So

18 we have given this to you as guidance, and -- but

19 yet there's many to-be-determined items. And we

20 see that there could be a continuous flow of to21 be-determined items on here. Are you waiting for

22 everything to be decided before you would start
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1 looking at writing guidance? Or -- because that

2 would help me understand better -- if you're

3 going to wait two years, then it wouldn't matter

4 if we voted right now or not, because it's not

5 going to happen. But I would hope that at some

6 point, we'll -- they'll -- the Program would say

7 okay, we're here. The things that have been

8 voted, we can move forward with, and maybe even

9 the guidance, we'll say these things are still

10 under review by the NOSB for further guidance in

11 the future. But I don't know what your process

12 is.

13 DR. LEWIS: So from a Program

14 standpoint, we haven't made any decisions about

15 how best we want to proceed. But I think this

16 topic is unique in certain ways, in that it's a

17 technology that's evolving. So I think what we

18 all can see is over time there will be new

19 technologies, new items to be added. So at least

20 to kind of go back to my initial point, is that,

21 we haven't made any decisions yet how best we

22 want to proceed at this time.
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1 MS. BEHAR: Dan.

2 DR. SEITZ: I just want to say, I

3 agree with Steve that if this is not sent back to

4 committee, I would want to vote in favor of it,

5 because I think it's a very carefully researched

6 document and one that's going to be very useful

7 for us.

8 MS. BEHAR: And I guess, I'd just like

9 to say too that the public supported all of them

10 to be listed as excluded methods, with the

11 clarification that cell fusion was not included

12 in cisgenesis. That was the main public issue. 

13 It was -- there was no one saying any of these

14 three items should not be -- actually, it was

15 great support to add them to the list.

16 Joelle.

17 MS. MOSSO: Yeah. I think my

18 opposition is simply from a process as well as

19 lacking clear definitions for the public prior to

20 voting. But I did want to make a comment to the

21 Program on the sense that this is a rapidly

22 evolving, you know, field. And there's concern,
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1 at least on my part, is that very quickly

2 something could be included into the Program

3 accidentally, because it moves faster in

4 evolution than we do. And I'm just wondering if

5 there's any sort of way to fast-track or create a

6 system that can respond as quickly as the

7 environment changes in that respect.

8 DR. LEWIS: Yeah. That's a good point

9 for us to kind of think about how we can be fluid

10 in this case -- is how can we be aware of these

11 changes that are occurring? So we have -- we

12 have conversations with experts in our

13 organization department, and obviously with you

14 as a board, in terms of raising these issues to

15 us. I think that's a very valid point. That's,

16 I think the theme I've been hearing for the past

17 hour in terms of -- this is an area of science

18 that's evolving very quickly. And we, as a

19 Program, need to be aware of making those

20 adjustments as needed.

21 MS. BEHAR: Ashley.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes. So I would like to
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1 see this go back. Not that I do not support this

2 whatsoever, but I just come from the same place

3 Joelle's coming from -- is from a process

4 standpoint, is we really do need some definitions

5 on this. And you know, I think it's wonderful

6 that the Program has offered expertise within

7 USDA to help us get those definitions right,

8 because this is a very confusing world if you

9 don't live in it. And you know, we need to get

10 it right. Because everyone in this room wants to

11 exclude the majority of all of these methods. So

12 we need to make sure we get the definitions

13 right.

14 MS. BEHAR: Other? Oh. Lisa.

15 MS. DE LIMA: So based on what Ashley

16 just said, that is, is it a -- are people

17 thinking that we go back and do definitions on

18 the original ones that we passed, to Tom's point

19 about being consistent?

20 What is the will of the board?

21 MS. BEHAR: Tom.

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yeah. I would say
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1 we do all if we're doing them.

2 MS. BEHAR: I think though, too, that

3 when we build the definition, we have to be

4 prepared that they also will be living

5 definitions as well. And that was the main point

6 of looking at them through the criteria, is so

7 there wouldn't be this constant changing and

8 modification of a definition, but more of the

9 overall method that is being used. Because -- I

10 mean, I don't understand, you know, all the sub11 particle, cell, you know, aspects, but the

12 criteria are very clear and easy for me to

13 understand somewhat where they come from. 

14 And so I have Lisa and then Emily.

15 MS. DE LIMA: All right. So folks

16 know where I'm on -- I'm standing on this, I'd

17 rather not send it back, and I'd rather vote on

18 it without the definitions. That's where I'm at

19 right now.

20 MS. OAKLEY: I agree with that, and I

21 also think that this is evidence of what happens

22 when you lose historical knowledge. And Zea was
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1 the one who worked on this. And I wish we could

2 ask her why there weren't definitions, because

3 I'm sure she addressed that at some point. Maybe

4 Tom remembers. I'll just say quickly though

5 that, ironically, I have a hesitation to include

6 definitions, because I am concerned it could box

7 us into something that we wouldn't necessarily

8 want. But I'm not an expert.

9 MS. BEHAR: Tom.

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yeah. So I -- this

11 whole time, and I think even while we were

12 talking in Subcommittee assumed there weren't

13 definitions in the previous proposal. And I

14 pulled it up, and unfortunately, actually, I

15 think we are incorrect in our statements. I

16 always stop when I get to the part that says

17 motion by, seconded, yes, no, yada yada yada, but

18 looking back at the -- it's not the one on the

19 screen. Looking back at the one we passed in

20 2016, after that page, there's an Appendix A

21 that's a brief description and additional

22 citations for terms used in excluded methods,
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1 terminology chart, of which, to call these

2 definitions might be a stretch of the word

3 definition, but they are a description of those

4 terms. So I wasn't aware of this. So I was

5 going on the basis of consistency. And now that

6 I am aware of this, I guess I'm going to agree

7 that we should send it back.

8 MS. BEHAR: Well, in this --

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So this is in the

10 2016. So for folks that don't fully remember or

11 weren't here for the full history of this, we

12 passed a proposal in 2016 to further define and

13 go into detail around what excluded methods

14 meant. And we passed principles and definitions

15 of technique -- no. Not techniques. Definitions

16 of certain terms that appear in the excluded

17 methods, that we recommended for guidance. And

18 then, in addition to that, had a chart. And

19 then, in the chart, we applied the criteria to

20 make a determination of whether it met those

21 definitions under excluded methods. That's the

22 kind of process we used to make these
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1 determinations. So at the end of that document -

2 - not the one we have before us, but the one from

3 2016, there's an Appendix A with some level of

4 description of that chart.

5 MS. BEHAR: Is that the one you were

6 talking about that has genetic engineering,

7 genetically modified organisms? That one?

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: No. Here. I'll

9 just show it to you.

10 Yeah. Michelle can go to it. If you

11 have internet, it's part of our recommendations

12 from Fall 2016. You have it? Okay. Scroll

13 down. Is that this one? That's the -- no. Keep

14 scrolling down. Scroll down. This is the 2016

15 one? Yeah. Scroll down. Down, down, down,

16 down. No. That's 2017. That's not the 2016

17 one.

18 MS. BEHAR: So the original seven have

19 descriptions of what they are, not necessarily

20 listed as a definition. So I guess, to be

21 consistent, we could make further descriptions. 

22 We could bring out a document that called them
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1 all definitions.

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yeah. I mean,

3 whether we want to further work on these, or we

4 determine that the descriptions here were

5 sufficient and we provide similar descriptions

6 for the three additional techniques. But I think

7 we should be consistent. And so I was with you

8 guys until I saw this. I'm sorry. I do think we

9 should send it back.

10 MS. BEHAR: Sue.

11 MS. BAIRD: Would the Program want to

12 look at our descriptions of the seven and review

13 them with your experts, along with helping with

14 the descriptions of these?

15 DR. LEWIS: We can review them, but I

16 think what we're getting to as a group is clarity

17 of how we're defining these technologies. So let

18 me talk to folks in the Department who are

19 experts in this area, this technology and kind of

20 think about how we can best move forward in this. 

21 Let me also add is that not only the

22 three now and the ones previously, but the TBDs,
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1 we can also use that opportunity to kind of move

2 forward and to address the ones that -- in

3 thinking about moving forward. So we can have

4 this conversation retrospectively and also

5 prospectively, if you will.

6 MS. BEHAR: Would it be acceptable,

7 when we do further descriptions and definitions,

8 to have a disclaimer at the top of that, that

9 says these may be modified as the technologies --

10 I wouldn't want to put something in the docket

11 that was so -- that was too cast in stone,

12 because things are so rapidly changing. So I

13 just want to make sure that that kind of -- I

14 think that could have been one of the reasons why

15 they were descriptions instead of definitions,

16 because we didn't want to be so prescriptive and

17 leave ourselves open to more rapidly respond as

18 things changed.

19 DR. LEWIS: And I would not be

20 surprised when we -- when you begin that

21 conversation with those experts, that's probably

22 going to be the initial point of consensus is
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1 that, having a definition at -- where there's

2 agreement at a subcommittee level, as an example,

3 knowing that the flexibility is required. Of

4 course, the science is evolving as we speak.

5 MS. BEHAR: Emily.

6 MS. OAKLEY: I forgot.

7 MS. BEHAR: Well. Dave.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: I do feel -- I will

9 just say -- and I totally respect the differences

10 of opinion around the table. I feel a certain

11 sense of urgency on things like this. 

12 And let me just very briefly tell you

13 why. I have some colleagues who last week were

14 told they couldn't travel to present at a climate

15 change conference because of a federal decree on

16 federal scientists not speaking about climate

17 change last week. I have a concern that we start

18 having creep -- administration creep -- and I

19 don't mean NOP here. But administration creep

20 that starts to somehow try to shape our agenda. 

21 So that's part, in the back of my mind

22 of why I'd like to vote on this right now. But I
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1 totally get the reason why we need complete

2 definitions -- or would like complete definitions

3 as well. So I see both sides.

4 MS. BEHAR: Emily.

5 MS. OAKLEY: I remembered. I don't

6 want to put you on the spot, A-Dae, but I know

7 this is an issue that's near and dear to your

8 heart. So, I was just wondering if you had an

9 opinion, and if you would share it if you did. 

10 But if you don't want to, that's fine.

11 MS. BRIONES: Yeah. Talking over with

12 some of my colleagues here. I would love to vote

13 on this. I -- I'm thinking about how you enforce

14 this without definitions, given that we have

15 other definitions for the previous seven, it does

16 make me want to have definitions, just for

17 enforcement and some guidance for the community. 

18 Because if we're wishy-washy, kind of, on this

19 Board, I can only imagine how that translates

20 when it comes to actually enforcing this

21 document.

22 MS. BEHAR: Other comments? I know
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1 the clock is ticking.

2 Dan.

3 DR. SEITZ: Yes. I mean, I think

4 there's some temperamental differences too. I

5 feel comfortable living with a certain amount of

6 incompleteness, and I feel that the urgency

7 outweighs that. And that because it's evolving,

8 we might in six months be back here saying, it's

9 still not quite clear. We still need some people

10 to weigh in. And then, even experts disagree on

11 things. And, so, I don't know that there's this

12 other group that will have the definitive answers

13 for us. So, I -- I certainly, as if this is a

14 living document, would appreciate other people's

15 perspectives on it, but I don't know that we

16 would -- we should assume that because there's a

17 group there that has some expertise, they

18 necessarily would have a final word on this

19 either. So, I would feel comfortable moving

20 ahead. But, then again, I don't mind a little

21 chaos. Okay. So -- anyway.

22 MS. BEHAR: Other comments? 
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1 Francis, you haven't said anything.

2 DR. THICKE: Let's just do it.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MS. BEHAR: Joelle.

5 MS. MOSSO: Just trying to get

6 creative here. Is there any other way that we

7 can address definitions, or a system that would

8 be more fluid to address these rapidly evolving

9 technologies? Because they literally happen

10 overnight. Like, even if we passed this today,

11 they're irrelevant in some ways because there's

12 another method. I'm concerned -- I'm very much

13 concerned about what we've heard about not making

14 a -- you know, a decision, as well as not making

15 a decision and then being in a position where it

16 is like, well, it was in flux, two years later

17 when we regret that we didn't. So, I --

18 MS. BEHAR: Yes. And it could be,

19 like, within the methods that are being used,

20 there's just a little tweak that we didn't

21 anticipate and didn't have it in our definition.

22 MS. MOSSO: I'm just wondering if
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1 there's some sort of process where we can have

2 some portion of a document be more living.

3 MS. BEHAR: I believe Paul did say

4 that that was possible.

5 DR. LEWIS: The document that you

6 presented here is a living document, because you

7 have three topics that you're voting on and

8 knowing that there are other technologies that

9 you identified TBD. So, I think you've already

10 presented this as a living document.

11 MS. BEHAR: Sue.

12 MS. BAIRD: Just a question, and maybe

13 this has been covered, but we've covered so many. 

14 We've gone back and forth. I'm confused. Can we

15 pass this because we do have these TBDs, to-be16 determined things? Can we pass it, and then,

17 because it is a living document, we can go back

18 and add definitions to what we've already passed?

19 MS. BEHAR: That is my understanding. 

20 The question, I think is, is it consistent -- 

21 MS. BAIRD: Right. 

22 MS. BEHAR: -- to put something as an
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1 excluded method without either a description or a

2 definition?

3 MS. BAIRD: But, if it's to be

4 determined, then --

5 MS. BEHAR: No. We have three things

6 that we're trying to --

7 MS. BAIRD: Yes. I know you've got

8 three now. But we've already said it's going to

9 be a living document, to be added to.

10 DR. SEITZ: Maybe we just be TBD in

11 the definition boxes.

12 MS. BEHAR: That's an option. So, I'm

13 just wondering if we're ready to -- Jess, do you

14 have anything to say. You're looking at me like

15 you want to say something.

16 MR. BUIE: Yes. No. Because, it's a

17 scientific document, you know, the definitions

18 need to be there. But, I -- you know, since it's

19 a living document, I think it's something we can

20 go forward with and, you know, work within those

21 bounds.

22 MS. BEHAR: Does anybody want to call
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1 the question? Emily.

2 MS. OAKLEY: Just one, quickly. I

3 think it's a living document much like the

4 research priorities document is a living

5 document.

6 MS. BEHAR: Anybody else?

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. So, we have

8 a motion to refer this back to the subcommittee. 

9 The motion was made by Steve and was seconded by

10 Joelle. Since this is not a vote to conduct

11 business, as a procedural vote, it follows

12 Robert's Rules of Order, which, for this, would

13 be a simple majority. So, a yes vote on this

14 motion would refer it back to subcommittee. A no

15 vote would continue discussion of this document. 

16 The voting will start with Lisa.

17 MS. DE LIMA: Yes. 

18 MR. BRADMAN: No. 

19 MS. MOSSO: No. 

20 MR. ELA: Ironically, no.

21 MR. MORTENSEN: That means we're going

22 with it?
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1 PARTICIPANT: Yes. 

2 MR. MORTENSEN: No. 

3 MR. BUIE: No. 

4 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes.

5 DR. SEITZ: No. 

6 MR. RICE: Yes. 

7 MS. BAIRD: Yes. 

8 MS. BEHAR: No. 

9 MS. OAKLEY: No. 

10 DR. THICKE: No. 

11 MS. BRIONES: No. 

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes. 

13 Five yes. Ten no. The motion fails. 

14 Discussion continues, or we can move to the vote. 

15 That's fine.

16 MS. BEHAR: Are we ready to vote,

17 then?

18 Okay. 

19 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Can you go back to

20 the other one? That was the Appendix A, by the

21 way.

22 All right. So, we have a motion from
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1 the subcommittee to accept the two sections of

2 the proposal as stated above, and that is the --

3 that is the chart and the TBD. Is that correct? 

4 So, that's the revising the chart to add the

5 yeses and to retaining the TBDs that we have in

6 there already. Can you scroll back down? 

7 The motion was made by Harriet and

8 seconded by Dan. So, this is a motion to approve

9 this proposal. So, a yes vote is to approve. A

10 no vote is to reject it. 

11 And the voting will start with Lisa.

12 MR. ELA: Can I have a question of

13 order?

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes. 

15 MR. ELA: Are we making the change? 

16 So, the motion is with the change to -- 

17 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: No. That would

18 have to come as a separate amendment.

19 MR. ELA: Okay. I just wanted to put

20 it -- 

21 MS. BEHAR: And the reason for that is

22 that cell fusion is listed as still to be
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1 determined, in the chart.

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Are we still clear

3 on what we're voting on? I'm seeing general head

4 nodding. So, the voting will start with Asa.

5 MR. BRADMAN: Yes. 

6 MS. MOSSO: Yes. 

7 MR. ELA: Yes.

8 MR. MORTENSEN: Yes. 

9 MR. BUIE: Yes. 

10 MS. SWAFFAR: Yes. 

11 DR. SEITZ: Yes. 

12 MR. RICE: Yes. 

13 MS. BAIRD: Yes. 

14 MS. BEHAR: Yes. 

15 MS. OAKLEY: Yes. 

16 DR. THICKE: Yes. 

17 MS. BRIONES: Yes. 

18 MS. DE LIMA: Yes.

19 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Chair votes yes.

20 Fifteen yes. Zero no. The motion

21 passes.

22 MS. BEHAR: So, I will just say that
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1 our subcommittee will continue to work on this

2 document.

3 MS. BEHAR: So, the material

4 subcommittee has one more item, a discussion

5 document on seed purity. And Dan, maybe you

6 would like to talk about how we've changed the

7 name.

8 DR. SEITZ: Sure. Well, first of all,

9 I just want to let everyone know, we're not

10 trying to set a record with the number of

11 discussion documents on this issue.

12 (Laughter.)

13 DR. SEITZ: The reason this is a

14 discussion --

15 PARTICIPANT: The record?

16 DR. SEITZ: Oh, I don't know what the

17 record is. But the reason this is a discussion

18 document is we decided we really need to develop

19 a proposal, but we weren't ready to develop a

20 proposal. But we wanted to keep this on people's

21 minds. So, we put this out as a discussion

22 document referencing previous discussion
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1 documents, and just inviting the general public

2 if -- and stakeholders, if they have any further

3 comments on this topic, they're welcome to submit

4 those in the -- using the open docket. We had

5 been calling this seed purity. And then, in the

6 interest of causing confusion, I changed the name

7 to seed integrity. But maybe we'll stick with

8 seed purity, just because --

9 MS. BEHAR: No. Genetic integrity. 

10 DR. SEITZ: Oh. Right. Well, okay. 

11 I think we'll have to, you know --

12 MS. BEHAR: So, do we -- 

13 DR. SEITZ: -- finalize our

14 terminology on this. But, in any event, whatever

15 we call it, there were just a couple comments. 

16 Both referenced the request of the NOSB to the

17 NOP that a task force be formed to look at this

18 issue, because it is a very complex issue. And I

19 don't know if there's been any movement on that,

20 consideration of that. Perhaps, Paul, you might

21 let us know.

22 DR. LEWIS: Sure. So, one thing we've
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1 been saying since the beginning of the meeting,

2 we have new leadership that's -- that arrived. A

3 new acting deputy administrator. So, as Ruihong

4 Guo comes on board, you'd want to share this with

5 her. So, I'm looking forward to briefing her

6 next week, in terms of what were discussed today,

7 including this document.

8 DR. SEITZ: Great. Thanks. 

9 PARTICIPANT: And the only other.

10 DR. SEITZ: The only other piece is

11 that people recognize that this is a very complex

12 issue, one that would benefit by gathering data. 

13 It's not something that will be easily solved in

14 a short period. But it is the subcommittee's

15 intent to at least try to bring a proposal to the

16 spring meeting.

17 MS. BEHAR: I have a comment. One of

18 the reasons why we were looking at changing the

19 name of seed purity is that a lot of times that

20 has to do with whether there's foreign matter,

21 weed seed, or whatever in the seed. And that

22 really is not what we're trying to get at here. 
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1 We're trying to get at the genetic integrity of

2 the seed, and specifically that it is free of

3 genetic modification -- genetic contamination.

4 DR. SEITZ: Thank you Harriett. Any

5 other comments?

6 MS. BEHAR: Okay. Guess what? We

7 don't have to vote on that one. Go forth and

8 prosper, Dan. 

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Harriet. 

10 That concludes the material subcommittee portion

11 of the agenda. And we'll move on down the

12 agenda. 

13 Up next would be deferred proposals

14 and final votes. So, we went from just on time

15 to ahead of time. Jumping ahead, we're now on

16 subcommittee work agendas. And we'll be pulling

17 it up. Once it's up, we'll run through the

18 subcommittee agendas in order, asking the

19 subcommittee chairs to briefly discuss their

20 upcoming work.

21 So, up first is CACS. Scott.

22 MR. RICE: Thanks, Tom. As I
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1 mentioned earlier and in our discussion, we had a

2 request from the Program to add the issue of

3 imports to our work agenda. And that's something

4 that we'll be heading into the winter to work on. 

5 We are coming back to our document on -- well, we

6 re-scoped our look dealing with inspectors, to

7 focus in on inspector qualifications. So, we'll

8 be taking a look at that as well. And that is it

9 at this time. 

10 Oh. Excuse me. Thank you, Harriet. 

11 And we did refer native ecosystems back to the

12 subcommittee. So, there is that as well.

13 Thank you. 

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes. I will --

15 we'll add that in here.

16 Any questions for Scott?

17 Emily.

18 MS. OAKLEY: I know that there are

19 some on our committee who are interested in

20 looking at the possibility of adding fracking to

21 our work agenda. And, so, I wanted to ask a

22 question to Paul, specifically, what that might
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1 take.

2 DR. LEWIS: Sure. Thank you. So, in

3 terms of the developing work agenda, I don't --

4 like other work agenda items, you know, develop a

5 proposal, have a conversation about that,

6 socialize that with leadership, and then see how

7 best they want to proceed on that. So, that is

8 something that I know that has been brought up in

9 previous conversations. I know, Scott, you and I

10 spoke about this. So, you know, kind of, look in

11 terms of how you want to scope this, and then,

12 for us to socialize it internally.

13 MR. RICE: One more comment on that. 

14 We were looking at not just that fracking issue,

15 but -- just for clarity, looking at water and

16 just inputs -- or not inputs per se, but just

17 beyond water, produced water, et cetera --

18 MS. BEHAR: Oil and gas

19 infrastructure.

20 MR. RICE: Oil and gas infrastructure. 

21 And just from that couple of sentences, you can

22 see that's a tough one to scope. But I wanted to
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1 encourage on all these fronts, and as we move

2 through these agendas, that we do have open

3 docket and appreciate the input.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Steve.

5 MR. ELA: And I'd just like to echo

6 for the Program. I mean, Ohio has presented on

7 this public comment a number of times. But it's

8 certainly an issue in Colorado. I mean, North

9 Dakota we hear about, but Colorado has a huge oil

10 and gas extraction industry that's all being

11 fracked now. So, it's not -- I just want to feed

12 back into, on the public comment that it is not

13 just a regional thing in Ohio. It is a much

14 broader topic that, like, our Valley and Organic

15 Growers Association has come out on the record to

16 the BLM on or around our Valley to try and

17 protect our, you know, our water supplies and

18 things. So, I just want to make sure you realize

19 it's not isolated.

20 MR. RICE: Thank you for that.

21 MR. MORTENSEN: And the same -- the

22 same exact thing is true in Pennsylvania and West
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1 Virginia, Eastern Ohio. Yes. For sure.

2 MR. RICE: A-Dae.

3 MS. BRIONES: Yes. And I just want to

4 add to that, where the same issue is relevant in

5 New Mexico and North Dakota and Virginia.

6 MR. RICE: Keep sneaking up on me. 

7 Emily.

8 MS. OAKLEY: I would be remiss if I

9 didn't mention Oklahoma. And I know an organic

10 farmer personally, who has had fracking on her

11 farm and the impacts that that's had on her.

12 MR. RICE: Harriet.

13 MS. BEHAR: I think, concerning oil

14 and gas infrastructure, pipelines and such, it's

15 pretty much every state in the Union.

16 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right. Okay. 

17 We'll move onto the crops subcommittee work

18 agenda. 

19 Francis. Francis, you're going to --

20 you're taking lead on all of these. Is that

21 correct?

22 DR. THICKE: Right. Run out the door. 
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1 Okay. So, the crops subcommittee has five

2 materials that are petitioned that will be on

3 target, we hope -- or they hope for spring 2018. 

4 Polyoxin D zinc salt, allyl isothiocyanate,

5 sodium citrate, natamycin, and sulfur as a

6 molluscicide. And other things that are being

7 worked on that may or may not be on the agenda

8 for next spring are manure treatments, which is

9 some continuation of work on animal with

10 biodegradable, biobased mulch, marine materials. 

11 And then the two container and hydroponics

12 issues, which the subcommittee will have to

13 wrestle with somehow. And then the sunsets. Do

14 you want me to read you the list of sunsets?

15 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes. 

16 DR. THICKE: Okay. So, for our 2020

17 sunsets, we have alcohols, ethanol and

18 isopropanol, sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate,

19 newspaper or other recycled material, plastic

20 mulch and covers, aqueous potassium silicate,

21 elemental sulfur, lime sulfur, sucrose octanoate

22 esters, hydrated lime, liquid fish products,
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1 sulfurous acid, ethylene, microcrystalline

2 cheesewax, and potassium chloride.

3 Dan.

4 DR. SEITZ: I had the impression

5 yesterday that people on both sides of the

6 hydroponics issue had some interest potentially,

7 in looking into the idea of a label that would

8 indicate hydroponics. So, I'm curious, if we

9 were to explore that as a work agenda item, how

10 that -- I'm sorry. I am not talking into the mic

11 consistently here. So, I want to -- just want to

12 ask how it -- that might be considered as a work

13 agenda item.

14 DR. TUCKER: Yes. I think I would

15 sort of repeat what I shared this morning, in

16 that we'll go back and sort of take the events of

17 this meeting back to our leadership team, get

18 their feedback, and then share their thoughts

19 with the board.

20 MS. BEHAR: So, if we were to explore

21 a label, my confusion is, what committee does it

22 go in? Because we don't typically have labeling
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1 in crops, but it's really not handling. So,

2 that's somewhat my confusion. Because, I might

3 be willing to put together a work agenda request,

4 but I'd have to figure out what committee I have

5 to go through.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Well, if it wasn't

7 your committee, it would most likely be CA -- or,

8 sorry, if it wasn't in the crops committee, it

9 would likely be the CACS committee, which you

10 also luckily serve on at this time. So, at least

11 one of those two -- generally the requests start

12 at a subcommittee, go through the executive to

13 the -- to the Program. The Program makes a

14 determination. Or if the Program wants to ask

15 directly, they just ask and refer it down to us. 

16 But then the chair assigns it out to the

17 appropriate subcommittee. I -- whoever the

18 future chair is -- and I hear your -- as current

19 chair, I hear your concerns, but I think that get

20 resolved if and when some proposal goes forward,

21 and depending on what originates it, if it's us

22 or the Program.
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1 DR. TUCKER: Yes. I would say, if you

2 could let us get some feedback on this, I think

3 that would be a logical next step. 

4 MR. BRADMAN: I just want to echo what

5 Harriet said. I think this would be a good

6 agenda item for the board.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right. Thank

8 you, Francis. I just made you go through all the

9 sunsets, just because I wanted more than, let's

10 do it, to be your last words here on the board.

11 DR. THICKE: Not quite last.

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I know.

13 So, up next is handling. We also

14 wanted to make Lisa pronounce all these things.

15 MS. DE LIMA: I've got two more years.

16 (Laughter.)

17 MS. DE LIMA: All right. Well, we'll

18 start with petitions. SDBS. So, first petition.

19 (Laughter.)

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Can you read it out

21 in its entirety?

22 MS. DE LIMA: Maybe. Sodium
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1 dodecylbenzene sulfonate. And we've got sodium

2 chlorite for the generation of chlorine dioxide 

3 gas, silver dihydrogen citrate, the two pepper

4 petitions, which we are still going -- we're

5 coming forward with them, but we are still going

6 back and forth with the petitioner -- getting

7 some information out of them -- and then tamarind

8 seed gum.

9 Other projects we're working on, BPA,

10 which Asa's taking the lead on. We'll continue

11 working on marine materials, and then a re12 classification of magnesium chloride. 

13 And then we have 18 sunset materials. 

14 Are you going to make me read those?

15 Calcium carbonate, flavors, gellan

16 gum, oxygen, potassium chloride, alginates,

17 calcium hydroxide, epolene, glycerides, mono and

18 di, magnesium stearate, phosphoric acid,

19 potassium carbonate, sulfur dioxide, xanthan gum. 

20 I'm not going to say that one. FOS.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: 

22 Fructooligosaccharides.
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1 MS. DE LIMA: That. What Tom said. 

2 Gums, Arabic, Carob bean, Guar, and Locust bean,

3 lecithin de-oiled, and tragacanth gum.

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Any questions for

5 Lisa?

6 Yes. Harriet?

7 MS. BEHAR: Is this the flavors that

8 we had public comment about, that there was an

9 annotation that was proposed?

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So, we -- the -- we

11 were petitioned to change the annotation to

12 flavors. I don't remember when we received the

13 petition, but we voted on it in the fall of 2015. 

14 And that's what's in the Program right now. At

15 the same time, we did a sunset review, and it's

16 also part of the sunset reorganization. But it's

17 flavors, as currently listed.

18 MS. BEHAR: We're still waiting for

19 the --

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: The Program to move

21 forward.

22 MS. BEHAR: -- the Program to -- Okay. 
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes. And I don't

2 know if the Program wants to make a comment on

3 where the flavors annotation change proposal is

4 at.

5 PARTICIPANT: That is not done.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So, still under

7 review?

8 PARTICIPANT: Yes.

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. Steve.

10 MR. ELA: And I, for Lisa, I lose

11 track, but you've put a -- several other new

12 petitions in front of the handling committee,

13 haven't you? Or am I -- I've seen a few things

14 come through my email that I haven't quite

15 internalized. Am I just? Or was it crops? 

16 Okay. Sorry. I haven't been paying real close

17 attention to that. I have to admit. So, sorry.

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes. That's for

19 the next semester. All right. We'll move on to

20 livestock. 

21 Ashley.

22 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay. In livestock we
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1 have a few petitions. The first is thymol. 

2 We're still kind of going back and forth on that

3 one. Glycolic acid as a teat dip, and then we

4 just received oxcalic acid for beekeeping last

5 week. So, we'll probably be bringing that one

6 forward. 

7 Our 2020 sunsets are alcohols,

8 ethanol, and isopropanol, aspirin, vaccines,

9 electrolytes, glycerine, phosphoric acid,

10 hydrated lime, mineral oil, and sucrose octanoate

11 esters. And that's all we have for now. So --

12 any questions?

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Questions for

14 Ashley?

15 All right. Up next is materials and

16 GMO subcommittee.

17 MS. BEHAR: So, we will be working on

18 the non-GMO organic seed integrity, contamination

19 issues of farm inputs is still on our agenda, as

20 well as the continued work on the living document

21 of excluded methods terminology.

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Questions?
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1 All right. Thank you. And --

2 MS. BEHAR: And maybe sanitizers.

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: And up next is

4 policy development with Dan.

5 DR. SEITZ: So, there are no major

6 revisions that are needed. There may be a couple

7 small tweaks to just make the manual consistent

8 with how a procedure here or there may have

9 evolved.

10 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Dan. 

11 Questions for Dan?

12 All right. I think that's it. Okay. 

13 So, up next, we have a presentation of

14 certificate of appreciation. I also have a

15 motion here I forgot to read off. But it's a

16 motion to sunset Francis Thicke.

17 (Laughter.)

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I think it takes a

19 two-thirds vote from the board --

20 MS. BEHAR: I --

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: -- to allow this to

22 occur. They remain on the list unless voted off.
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1 MS. BEHAR: I speak against that

2 motion. 

3 MR. RICE: So, deferred sunset, or

4 would we have him until March of 2022?

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: So, generally, we -

6 - there's a presentation of a plaque. And we

7 open it up to the Program to do that, and then we

8 give Francis an opportunity to say a few words if

9 you'd like. 

10 So, Jenny.

11 DR. TUCKER: Thanks. I've got to move

12 over and sit next to Francis for this

13 presentation. We do have a plaque for Francis. 

14 It says, certificate of appreciation, presented

15 to Dr. Francis Thicke for five years of dedicated

16 service as a member of the USDA's national

17 organic standards board, 2013-2018. And I just

18 want to say that since I've been working with

19 Francis and hearing about his impact on the

20 board, it really is phenomenal, the insights,

21 experience, and expertise that this group has

22 come to rely on him so much for. And I know that
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1 that will be dearly missed by this group and by

2 the Program. Your depth of knowledge, of

3 thoughtfulness, of commitment. 

4 Francis and I share one -- well,

5 probably a lot of things in common, but one thing

6 I particularly value in this moment is Francis is

7 a trumpet player, and I am a trumpet player. So,

8 we have part of the brass section covered. And

9 it reminds me that often in music -- I'm a big

10 fan of music metaphors. And we often have

11 dissonant chords. Right? And often we don't

12 know how a chord is quite going to resolve, but

13 sometimes the most discordant and unresolved

14 music can end up resulting in the most beautiful

15 harmonies ever. And I think that that can be a

16 good metaphor for our community and orchestra

17 here today. 

18 So, Francis, thank you for your gifts,

19 for your commitment, and your total devotion to

20 this community.

21 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Jenny. 

22 Appreciate it.
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1 (Applause.)

2 DR. THICKE: Well, I hope it isn't too

3 discordant what I might say here, but I hope you

4 can take it in the spirit of what I'm giving it

5 in. 

6 First of all, I want to thank all the

7 board members for all your hard work, and all the

8 staff. I really appreciate it. And we really

9 appreciate Michelle. She's the glue that holds

10 it all together. And whatever you're paying her,

11 it's not enough.

12 So, there are two important things I

13 learned being on the board for five years. 

14 First, I learned that the NOSB review process for

15 materials petition, is really quite rigorous. 

16 Technical reviews and careful scrutiny by the

17 subcommittees and by the full board. 

18 The second thing I've learned over

19 time is that the industry has an outsized and

20 growing influence on USDA and on the NOSB,

21 including through NOSB appointments, compared to

22 the influence of organic farmers, who started
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1 this organic farming movement. 

2 Perhaps that is not surprising, given

3 the growing value of organic sales. As organic

4 is becoming a 50-billion-dollar business, the

5 industry not only wants a bigger piece of the

6 pie, sometimes it seems they want the whole pie. 

7 Now, we have organic chicken CAFOs with 200,000

8 birds crammed into a building with no real access

9 to the outdoors, and a chicken industry working

10 behind the scenes to make sure that the animal

11 welfare standards, weak as they were, never make

12 it to see the light of day, just like the

13 chickens. The image consumers today of organic

14 chickens ranging outside has been relegated to

15 pictures on egg cartons. We have CAFO dairies

16 with 15,000 cows with compelling evidence by

17 investigative reporter that the CAFO was not

18 meeting the grazing rule, not by a long shot. 

19 But when USDA did its obligatory

20 investigation, instead of a surprise visit, they

21 got a heads up, so that they could move the cows

22 to the feed lots, to pasture, on the day of
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1 inspection, which gives a green lot to that dairy

2 CAFO to move forward with his plans to establish

3 a 30,000-cow facility in the Midwest. 

4 We have large grain shipments coming

5 into the US that are being sold as organic, but

6 lack organic documentation. Some shipments have

7 been proven to be fraudulent. The USDA has been

8 a bit slow to take action to stop this. The

9 organic crop farmers in the US are suffering

10 financially a great deal as a result. And I

11 spoke with the reporter who broke the story on

12 the fraudulent organic grain imports. When I ask

13 him how he's able to document that fraud, when

14 USDA said it was very difficult, he said it was

15 easy. 

16 We have a rapidly growing percentage

17 of the organic fruits and vegetables on grocery18 store shelves being produced hydroponically,

19 without soil, and mostly in huge, industrial20 scale facilities. And we have a hydroponics

21 industry that has deceptively renamed hydroponic

22 production, even with 100 percent liquid feeding,
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1 as container production. With their clever

2 deception, they have been able to bamboozle even

3 the majority of NOSB members into complicity with

4 their goal of taking over the organic fruit and

5 vegetable market with their hydroponic products. 

6 Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised to

7 find that big business has taken over the USDA

8 organic Program, because the influence of money

9 is corroding all levels of our government. At

10 this point, I really can't see any -- I can only

11 see one way to bring the organic label back in

12 line with the original vision or organic farmers

13 and consumers. 

14 I think we need an add-on organic

15 label for organic farmers who are willing to meet

16 the expectations of discerning consumers who are

17 demanding real organic food. A year ago, I

18 wouldn't have supported that idea of an add-on

19 organic label, because I, like many others, saw

20 the USDA organic label as the gold standard and

21 had hoped that through our vision of the process

22 of continuous improvement, we could really make
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1 it to be that gold standard. 

2 Now, I see that the influence of big

3 business is not going to let that happen. The US

4 is increasingly exerting -- the USDA is

5 increasingly exerting control over the NOSB, and

6 big business is tightening its grip on the USDA

7 and on Congress. Recently, the industry

8 representatives called publicly on the US Senate

9 to weaken the NOSB and give industry a stronger

10 role in the National Organic Program. And

11 sympathetic centers promised to do just that. 

12 Now, I support the establishment of an

13 add-on organic label that will enable real

14 organic farmers of discerning organic consumers

15 to support on another through a label that

16 represents real organic food. I support the

17 creation of a label such as the proposed

18 regenerative organic certification that will

19 ensure organic integrity, for example, that

20 animals have real access to the outdoors and to

21 be able to express their natural behaviors, and

22 that food is grown in soil. My hopes are that
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1 this add-on certification can be seamlessly

2 integrated with the NOP certification, so that a

3 single-farm organic system plan and inspection

4 can serve to verify both NOP and the higher level

5 organic certification by certifiers that are

6 credited at both certification systems. 

7 I'm also pleased that the organic

8 farmers have recently organized themselves into

9 the Organic Farmers Association, to better

10 represent themselves in the arena of public

11 policy. Too often in the past, the interests of

12 big business have overruled the interests of

13 organic farmers and consumers when organic

14 policies are being established in Washington.

15 I hope this new organization will

16 allow organic farmers to gain equal footing with

17 industry on issues that affect the organic

18 community.

19 So, in summary, organic is at a

20 crossroad. We can either continue to allow the

21 industry to -- their interests to bend and delude

22 the organic rules to their benefit, or for
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1 organic farmers, working with the organic

2 consumers, you can step up and take action to

3 ensure organic integrity in the future. 

4 Thank you. 

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Thank you, Francis. 

6 Any board members want to say any last words to

7 Francis?

8 Harriet.

9 MS. BEHAR: I'll be seeing you,

10 Francis.

11 MS. SWAFFAR: So, Francis, you've been

12 my vice chair in livestock, and you've been such

13 a valuable member to our committee. I will miss

14 you so much and your knowledge of the dairy

15 industry. And you know, we'll really have hole

16 in our committee for quite some time, but I just

17 want to remind you, your term does not end until

18 January. So, we still have a lot of meetings

19 left. But thank you so much for your service.

20 DR. THICKE: Thank you, Ashley.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Emily.

22 MS. OAKLEY: When I first got
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1 appointed to this position, we were asked to

2 subcommittee calls, and I did. And I was also

3 told that we would probably have mentors if we

4 wanted them. And I listened to all the people

5 speaking, and I just always gravitated towards

6 Francis, as I think many of us do, for the kind

7 and thoughtful way that he speaks. Even when he

8 says things that are contentious, it always comes

9 out sounding nice. And I just had an affinity

10 for everything that he said. 

11 So, I just wanted to thank Francis for

12 being my mentor. And even though it's my second

13 year, I still feel like you're mentor, and you

14 will be even when you're gone. I'll still ask

15 you questions and how to pronounce things. But,

16 thank you. 

17 You bring your perspective as a

18 farmer, as a soil scientist, as a former USDA

19 employee, and as a consumer, to this role that I

20 don't think anybody else can bring to this table. 

21 And you will be sorely missed. Thank you. 

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Michelle.
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: Yes. So, I just

2 wanted to say thank you to Francis. Francis and

3 I share a birthday, and I've gotten a couple of

4 trumpet serenades over the years. So, thank you,

5 Francis. But I will hold a grudge that you've

6 been on this board for five years, and as a dairy

7 farmer you make ice cream, and I have not gotten

8 any ice cream yet. So --

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Well, you still

10 have until January 23rd.

11 Steve.

12 MR. ELA: Francis, this is the, I

13 think, the second board I've served on with you. 

14 And even though there's a small overlap, I just

15 want to say, I appreciate your free thinking and

16 your public comments, your ability to analyze

17 issues and bring out, you know, the real gist of

18 it. And I know you're not going to disappear,

19 and I am looking forward to your continued

20 involvement in all things organic and moving all

21 everything forward. Thank you, so much.

22 MR. MORTENSEN: I would like to echo
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1 what Emily said about the mentorship. Francis, I

2 -- probably ten times we talked on the phone

3 about things that I was just unclear on, or --

4 two times Francis called from his tractor with

5 questions about cover crops that we discussed

6 while I was in cover crop fields in Pennsylvania. 

7 But we will definitely miss you, and we will

8 clearly miss your leadership in seeing a holistic

9 system and articulating it in such a beautiful

10 way that you do. 

11 Thank you, Francis.

12 MR. BRADMAN: Yes. I just want to

13 thank you too for your presence. I mean, I

14 really feel like you're a gentleman in the real

15 meaning of the word. You know, I've only been

16 now to two meetings, and I've been on the phone

17 calls, and I really feel like there's been fair

18 discussion. And I just really appreciate that. 

19 And it's kind of a role model for my role here. 

20 So, thank you.

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Have we -- have we

22 made you blush, Francis?
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1 (Laughter.)

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right. 

3 Francis, thank you very much.

4 Okay. Up next, we have officer

5 elections. Michelle, can you pull up? Yikes. 

6 All right. Hold on. 

7 All right. So, briefly I want to

8 review the election procedures from our policy

9 and procedures manual. So, we do officer

10 elections every fall for all positions. There's

11 three officer positions, chair, vice chair, and

12 secretary. 

13 And I'll briefly run through the

14 process. So, first it starts with nominations. 

15 And any NOSB members eligible for consideration

16 for any officer position. The second one is that

17 any NOSB member may self-nominate or be nominated

18 by another member of the NOSB. The third one

19 isn't really relevant here, but it's basically

20 saying no quitters. Once you're in, you're in. 

21 The fourth one states that members may serve more

22 than one term in any officer position. 
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1 The voting schedule. So, officers

2 should be elected to one-year terms by a majority

3 vote in the fall at the NOSB meeting. Newly

4 elected officers will assume their positions at

5 the conclusion of the fall NOSB meeting and

6 assume the responsibilities thereof at that time. 

7 Outgoing NOSB officers will assist incoming

8 officers with their transition to their new

9 roles, to be completed no more than the 23rd of

10 January of the following year.

11 So, counting of the votes. Votes are

12 done by secret ballot. Jesse and Ashley just

13 passed them out. So, we have a green, a yellow,

14 and a red. I'll use the green for chair, the

15 yellow for vice chair, and then the secretary. 

16 The ballots are cast, and we do elections in that

17 order. So, we start with the chair, move on to

18 the vice chair, and finish with the secretary.

19 Yes?

20 MS. OAKLEY: Could you repeat those

21 colors?

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: We'll start --
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1 we'll do it when we -- as we go through, just to

2 make it clear. But, green -- green for chair. 

3 Yellow for vice chair. Pink for secretary.

4 Ballots will be counted for one office

5 at a time. The secretary will announce the tally

6 before the next office is open for nominations. 

7 The secretary and the vice chair will prepare and

8 distribute the ballots and then collect them

9 after each vote. One thing to note here. If one

10 of those officers are running for election --

11 it's not specified here, but it's probably

12 prudent that they don't collect the ballots. So,

13 we'll either choose another officer, or perhaps

14 an outgoing member.

15 The secretary will tally votes with

16 the chair, and the chair will verify the results. 

17 Again, if one of those officers are running for

18 election, we'll use another officer or an

19 outgoing member as necessary. 

20 The first nominee to receive a

21 majority of votes will be elected. If no nominee

22 receives the majority of votes, the nominee with
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1 the least number of votes, assuming there's more

2 than two, will be eliminated, and a revote will

3 occur with the remaining candidates. This

4 process will be repeated until a nominee obtains

5 a majority. In the event of a tie, there will be

6 a revote until the nominee obtains a majority. 

7 And all nominees will be included in the revote. 

8 So, we do vote by majority. So,

9 plurality requires a revote, if that makes sense

10 to folks.

11 Votes will remain confidential, and

12 ballots will be disposed of by the chair or

13 secretary. And a nominee may withdraw at their

14 discretion at any time. In the event of only one

15 nominee for office, the vote may be done by

16 acclamation. 

17 So, at this time, we'll open it up for

18 nominations for the first position, which is

19 chair.

20 Francis.

21 DR. THICKE: I nominate Harriet Behar.

22 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Lisa.
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1 MS. DE LIMA: I nominate Tom Chapman.

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Emily.

3 MS. OAKLEY: Can I second both?

4 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes. There's no

5 need to second, but yes. Perfect.

6 MS. OAKLEY: All right. Got it.

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. If people

8 are comfortable or uncomfortable with me running

9 because I was nominated, I'll pull it over to

10 Ashley, but Ashley can -- I mean, we just -- we

11 all have ballots. 

12 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay. So, we're going

13 to use the green ballots. Please write on them

14 either Harriet's name or Tom's name, fold them in

15 half, and Jesse and I will be around to pick them

16 up.

17 (Voting.)

18 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Francis, you got

19 that trumpet?

20 MS. BEHAR: Can it be a requirement

21 that Francis' replacement play a musical

22 instrument.
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1 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes. That seems

2 like a good idea. We should let the secretary

3 know to add that to the criteria.

4 MR. MORTENSEN: Harriet, you don't

5 know this about me, but I play the accordion.

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Did you bring it

7 with you?

8 MS. BEHAR: Along with wine and tofu,

9 I like the accordion.

10 PARTICIPANT: We could have played

11 MR. MORTENSEN: I almost brought it

12 with me.

13 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: I'm not sure how

14 the public would feel about that. This is going

15 to make for some really good transcripts.

16 MS. SWAFFAR: Okay. We have tallied

17 the votes, and Tom, you will be our chair again

18 next year.

19 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. The next

20 officer up for election is vice chair. Any

21 nominations for vice chair?

22 Emily?
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1 MS. OAKLEY: Harriet.

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right. 

3 MR. BUIE: I'd like to nominate

4 Ashley.

5 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. I have a

6 nomination for Harriet and a nomination for

7 Ashley.

8 MR. BRADMAN: Can I ask a question?

9 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Yes. 

10 MR. BRADMAN: What does the vice chair

11 do?

12 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Hoo, hoo. Seems

13 like a kind of an esoteric question or one of the

14 ones you can't really answer. You want me to

15 pull out my -- give me a second. This seems like

16 an excellent time to be able to refer back to the

17 --

18 MR. BRADMAN: Give me the short

19 version.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: -- the policies and

21 procedures.

22 PARTICIPANT: So, there's a
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1 definition, correct?

2 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: There is a

3 definition. Just give me a half a second here.

4 MR. BRADMAN: I assume in the absence

5 of the chair they act as chair, but is there

6 anything else?

7 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: All right. The

8 vice chair acts in the absence of the chair. The

9 primary duties of the vice chair are as follows,

10 serves as a member of the executive subcommittee,

11 participates in the administrative team meetings,

12 serves a member of the policy development

13 subcommittee, and helps maintain the policies and

14 procedures manual and ensure its accuracy.

15 Any other nominations? Okay. Seeing

16 none, we'll use the yellow card. And, similarly,

17 please write down a name, either Ashley or

18 Harriet. Fold it in half, and Jesse and I will

19 collect them.

20 (Voting.)

21 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: The vice chair will

22 be Harriet. Congratulations.
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1 Up next is secretary. And since we

2 had the question, I am going to read and have it

3 before me. The primary of the secretary are as

4 follows, serves a member of the executive

5 subcommittee, participates in administrative team

6 meetings, records all NOSB votes at NOSB meetings

7 in collaboration with the advisory committee

8 specialist, and circulates that record to the

9 NOSB members for approval, assists with annual

10 elections of NOSB officers, and may delegates

11 tasks to others but retains responsibility for

12 the official record. In addition to this, we've

13 had the secretary also monitoring the open docket

14 and providing updates to the board. It's not

15 officially in the job description, but that's

16 been a task as assigned from the chair.

17 Any nominations for secretary?

18 Harriet? 

19 MS. BEHAR: I don't know. Jesse just

20 gave me a side-wise glance. I'm not sure I was

21 going to nominate Jesse. Do -- would you like to

22 continue serving?
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1 MR. BUIE: Not really. No. I'm not.

2 MS. BEHAR: Well, then, I'll nominate

3 Dan Seitz.

4 DR. SEITZ: You know, I'll pass for

5 the time being. But thank --

6 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Joelle?

7 MS. MOSSO: I'll nominate Scott.

8 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Scott, you going to

9 pass too, or you -- 

10 MR. RICE: I'll accept. Thank you. 

11 Was it the duties as assigned by the chair that's

12 scaring everyone here?

13 MR. RICE: I think that qualifies.

14 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Any other

15 nominations? Yes, A-Dae?

16 MS. BRIONES: I would like to nominate

17 Ashley.

18 MS. SWAFFAR: No, thank you. I think

19 Scott will be a fabulous secretary.

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Okay. We only have

21 one nominee. So, we can save our pink pieces of

22 paper, and we'll take the vote by acclamation. 
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1 All in favor of Scott, say aye.

2 (Chorus of aye.)

3 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Scott. Okay. So,

4 we have our new officers for next year. And with

5 that, we'll move on to -- Yes. Thank you. With

6 that, we'll move onto other business and closing

7 remarks. I don't -- I'm unaware of other

8 business before the board. Closing remarks, I'd

9 like to ask the Program if they have any closing

10 remarks to make.

11 DR. TUCKER: Thank you very much. I'm

12 going to actually first turn it to Paul here.

13 DR. LEWIS: Thank you, Jenny. I want

14 to make a few remarks. I want to first thank the

15 board for all your work, appearing for

16 deliberations, and this week's work. I know it

17 was a lot of public comments, and we appreciate

18 all the effort in terms of balancing your

19 professional responsibilities and also your work

20 here. Also want to thank the public. So, the

21 public plays a valuable role in terms of

22 providing information to the board, but also to
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1 us, the Program, in terms of helping us in terms

2 of decisions that we make, any other work that's

3 important for us with National Organic Programs. 

4 So, we appreciate the valuable comments that you

5 make, both via the web -- our two public comment

6 webinars we just had recently, and the public

7 comment process that we had today.

8 Finally, also, I want to thank

9 Francis. I didn't make any remarks when people

10 were going around, because I wanted to save the

11 time here. Really enjoyed working with you,

12 Francis -- working with you, learning with you,

13 the conversations that we had. It was really a

14 valuable and rewarding experience. I just want

15 to thank you for serving on the board these

16 years. And for my two years here, it was really

17 a very rewarding experience. So, thank you for

18 that.

19 Also, the new leadership, or

20 continuing leadership, certain parts, for the

21 National Organic Standards Board, for Tom,

22 Harriet, and Scott. I'm looking forward to
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1 working with you over the next year. 

2 But I would be remiss in terms of not

3 thanking my NOP colleagues, to Doctor Tucker,

4 Michelle, Lisa, and Devon. The work that they do

5 behind the scenes to get us to this place today

6 and during the course of the week, is phenomenal. 

7 So, I just want to thank them for the work that

8 they do and just for being a great team. So,

9 thank you.

10 As Dr. Tucker's DFO, I turn the

11 meeting to you.

12 DR. TUCKER: Okay. And I would love

13 it if all of us would give Tom Chapman a huge

14 hand for doing such a wonderful job with this

15 meeting. So, Tom, thank you.

16 And, again, thanks to all of you who

17 invested your time and energy in being here

18 during this meeting. Thank you for being here. 

19 And I think the meeting is officially -- 

20 CHAIRMAN CHAPMAN: Quick comments, if

21 you will let me. So, thank you to the public for

22 your participation in our meeting. Thank you to
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1 the board members, again, for your time and

2 dedication. Thank you to our audio support, and

3 transcriptionist. Thank you to the Program. And

4 I think, especially, we would be remiss if we

5 didn't specifically call out Michelle and thank

6 you for all her hard work to make this seamless.

7 Another flawless meeting with great

8 execution. So, thank you, Michelle. Always

9 appreciated. 

10 Oh, yes. And thanks to our outgoing

11 officers as well, for their time and service

12 during this last year. They've been a great help

13 and support. And welcome to the oncoming

14 officers as well.

15 With that, we'll close the meeting.

16 DR. TUCKER: We are adjourned. Thank

17 you very, very much. 

18 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter

19 went off the record at 3:58 p.m.)

20

21

22
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A

A- 55:5

A-dae 1:14 118:22

125:1 126:4 133:14

135:4 153:12 203:8

206:10 209:22 242:10

279:6 295:2 326:15

a.m 1:9 5:2 83:18 84:6

123:21,22

ability 79:22 315:16

able 27:15,21 37:16

59:17 179:15 241:15

250:15 253:14 260:4

309:13 310:2 311:21

323:16

above-entitled 123:20

228:19 330:18

absence 324:4,8

absent 101:15 110:13

115:8 148:18 150:19

153:4 219:14

absolutely 86:1 116:4

120:22 184:12 196:16

239:9

absorb 148:7

abstain 135:9,16

219:13

abstentions 96:3

110:13 135:21

abstract 78:5

abuse 93:9

ACA 74:3

academic 230:20

Academy 236:12,17

accelerate 233:16

accept 47:14 55:6

168:1 218:20 286:1

326:10

acceptable 115:13

180:4 277:6

accepted 260:20

access 133:6 193:20

308:8 311:20

accidentally 118:10

270:3

acclamation 320:16

326:22

accordion 322:5,9

account 59:19 72:13

73:19,20 143:8

accounting 59:17

Accreditation 22:16

Accredited 42:22

accumulate 138:11

228:3

accumulating 227:2

accumulation 105:19

accuracy 324:14

accurate 248:9

acid 3:12,20 4:3 136:2,4

136:6 139:1 140:2

158:11 176:10,14,18

177:9 178:19 189:14

217:10 218:16 297:1

300:18 303:3,4,9

acidified 3:18 158:4,8

158:10,17 159:21

acidity 156:13

acids 212:17

acknowledge 74:15

acquired 165:10

acre 33:11 34:11

acres 33:14 52:21

act 23:10,14 43:7 88:8

98:14 122:3 163:1

209:16 324:5

acting 290:3

action 69:4,6,8,14,17

71:7 81:4 102:3,4,7

109:17 113:17 224:11

260:2 309:8 313:2

actions 65:6 67:16 69:5

69:9 70:19 71:3 72:18

73:5 82:2,7

active 85:16

activities 68:16

activity 51:15 64:18

173:18

actor 71:13

actors 71:9,11,16 81:12

81:14,15

acts 324:8

actual 63:13 180:17

264:4

actuality 181:7

acute 72:22 73:12

74:15

add 11:22 16:2 19:16

20:21,21 29:2 34:12

40:12 45:2 52:15

68:19 79:16 82:21

135:2 140:1,4 166:12

179:18 198:15 203:2

212:13 213:16 221:7

223:16 234:11 244:9

245:10 269:15 276:21

282:18 286:4 292:2

292:15 295:4 322:3

add-on 310:14,18

311:13 312:1

added 67:18 189:4

224:11 229:10,17,20

259:11 268:19 283:9

adding 24:16 28:16

80:5 137:17 243:8,13

292:20

addition 29:2 49:14

57:6 78:15 124:14

136:6,11 166:20

224:8 274:18 325:12

additional 4:5 40:3

49:16 136:15 189:16

191:4,6 224:4 243:8

247:8 273:21 276:6

additive 179:16

address 8:4 25:13 26:9

40:5,17 43:4 44:9

54:16 76:16,17 77:7

127:8 185:20 223:19

250:15 261:5 277:2

281:7,8

addressed 44:2 49:14

95:15 197:1 273:3

addresses 256:4

addressing 74:6 76:18

145:5

adds 29:4

adhere 20:9

Adjourn 4:20

adjourned 330:16

adjust 43:20

adjuster 156:20

adjusting 67:11

adjustment 44:10

adjustments 66:20

270:20

administering 100:10

100:13 109:11,13

113:10,12

administration 78:21

100:3 278:18,19

administrative 324:11

325:5

administrator 2:19

290:3

administrator's 66:6,10

admit 302:17

adopt 242:8 245:21

246:3

adopted 243:6 250:7

adsorb 148:7

adsorptive 148:6

adulterated 73:10

advances 262:10

advantage 44:20

advantageous 249:19

advise 64:7

advisory 2:10 152:11

154:14 199:21 325:7

advocate 183:19 214:2

aeroponics 5:21 6:4

affect 129:9 312:17

affidavit 76:7

affidavits 76:2

affinity 314:9

ag 36:1 54:6 231:8

agencies 32:6 85:11

Agency 56:12 65:20

agenda 4:12 5:9 22:21

39:17 50:4 51:8 56:2

83:15 84:2,18 124:5

166:13 168:6 173:14

189:3 196:7 224:3

226:8,17 229:3 243:8

261:1 278:20 291:11

291:12 292:3,21

293:3,4 295:18 296:7

297:9,13 298:3 299:6

303:19

agendas 291:16,18

294:2

agent 156:12,13 161:7

202:11 211:9 212:18

agents 41:13 85:4

225:5 227:16

ago 30:3 36:2 52:20

60:10,12 141:9

154:19 214:9 239:20

310:17

agree 10:16 14:21

25:20 27:6 32:1 36:20

49:17 68:11 70:17

97:2 111:3 128:21

129:13 138:15 166:15

183:4 184:11 192:16

195:12 196:15 249:17

269:3 272:20 274:6

agreed 228:2

agreement 6:5 13:4

278:2

agricultural 5:17

191:11 194:8 208:6

217:16,22 218:17

224:17,21 225:4

239:5

agriculture 1:1 23:21

199:12 200:13 212:5

231:6 232:10 247:17

agroinfiltration 244:10

255:9

ahead 8:10 45:20 72:5

258:17 260:14,22

266:13 280:20 291:15

291:15

aid 148:1 152:10,20

158:19 161:8

aids 152:16

air 164:22

alcohol 184:5

alcohols 296:17 303:7

algae 221:1 222:13,15

234:3
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alginates 300:16

aligned 52:7

allergens 73:9

alleyways 17:22

Alliance 24:7 28:21

allow 97:8 98:6 126:2

138:10 181:1 187:15

304:21 312:16,20

allowed 6:9 10:21 11:15

18:18 37:20 84:16

85:2,3 95:9 125:4

132:21 147:18,18

150:2 152:9 154:13

156:7 158:7 161:1

162:18 168:10 174:6

176:13 178:11 186:10

191:12 213:20 225:4

258:4

allowing 20:16,16

137:20

allyl 296:4

aloe 139:12,13

alternative 85:4 127:16

127:22 180:19,20

202:9

alternatives 86:3 88:20

98:4 105:5 106:18

107:11,17 127:14

129:15 131:12 170:12

170:22 180:3 181:5

181:14 202:20 235:4

235:4,7

altogether 114:5

ambiguity 267:5

AMDUCA 100:1 111:15

amenable 137:17

amend 46:3

amended 55:2

amendment 45:10

47:10,14 125:7

286:18

America 131:10

American 187:6,10

188:1

amidated 214:13,17,22

Amish 107:22

amount 76:5 171:4

193:12 206:13 258:14

280:5

amounts 212:11

amphibians 37:13

AMS 65:18 240:3

analgesia 100:8

analysis 59:15 126:16

184:3

analyze 315:16

ancillary 4:6 156:14

212:14 226:5,7,13,22

227:4,22 228:3,7,10

and/or 98:15 122:3

197:3

anecdote 52:16,19

anesthesia 109:17

anesthetic 104:1 108:8

109:10 113:9,16

117:19

angle 35:13

animal 76:8 95:19

110:18 117:4 118:4

119:16 127:3 128:6

132:6 133:11 139:7

148:2 296:9 308:10

animals 100:13 109:13

109:22 113:12 116:22

125:11 126:20 129:9

138:8,17 192:21

199:5,10 311:20

Ann 24:6 25:18

Annie's 187:8

annotated 178:17

annotation 4:4 18:10

18:17,20 19:8,13 20:5

20:7,10 21:11 86:9

93:3,8 101:6 105:10

105:16 110:4 114:1

183:7 188:22 189:8

191:5,7 212:2 224:3

225:13,15 301:9,11

302:3

annotations 189:12

announce 319:5

annual 325:9

answer 16:3 57:8,9

119:2 195:18 206:14

207:18 255:11,20

323:14

answered 60:14 115:19

answers 280:12

anti-caking 156:13

antibiotic 114:13 116:5

117:12,17 118:1,16

119:15 139:5

antibiotics 97:5 114:11

114:22 116:12 117:2

117:3 119:13 120:11

120:20 235:8

anticipate 281:21

anticipated 53:4

antimicrobial 137:2

139:13 158:9

anybody 96:22 111:11

119:1 128:21 203:20

207:1 239:10 283:22

284:6 314:20

anymore 22:5

anyway 280:21

APHIS 61:4

Apparently 114:14

appeal 66:3,7

appeals 65:5

appear 184:22 274:16

appearing 327:15

appears 84:20

appellant 66:8

Appendix 273:20 275:3

285:20

applaud 232:16

Applause 307:1

applicability 182:13

applicable 41:5 80:22

84:22 104:1 122:3

167:3

application 29:19 93:4

125:12 164:16 187:1

194:16

applications 31:2 92:19

171:2 183:8,10 187:2

188:3 194:9 204:14

applied 128:5 274:19

applies 208:10

apply 223:4

applying 128:14

appointed 314:1

appointments 307:21

appreciate 5:22 19:14

21:15 25:16 75:7

222:21 249:10 280:14

294:3 306:22 307:8,9

315:15 316:18 327:17

328:4

appreciated 45:4 83:11

143:10 144:21 330:9

appreciates 230:12

235:12

appreciation 304:14

305:14

approach 13:4 73:14

220:4 222:1

appropriate 81:3

104:19 171:2 183:5

234:5 266:10 298:17

appropriately 56:18

106:2,2

approval 114:18 169:8

325:9

approve 55:2 191:18,20

242:11 286:8,9

approved 86:5 107:7

169:12 191:19 217:11

232:8 245:16

aquaponic 6:6

aquaponics 5:20

aquatic 221:11

aqueous 296:20

Arabic 301:2

area 20:17 26:9 37:18

42:21 63:2,15 67:1,10

109:19 113:18 186:3

246:14 247:15,19

261:6 270:17 276:19

areas 7:3 26:6 33:18

62:2 88:16 116:18

138:9 167:10 180:4

194:8 240:4

arena 240:9 247:22

256:11 312:10

argue 183:14

arguing 251:9

argument 78:17 184:3

184:8 239:6

Arkansas 31:17

arrests 73:5

arrived 290:2

ARSENAULT 2:10

315:1

articulate 166:10

articulated 167:19

articulating 316:9

artificial 7:8 8:13 11:4

11:17 13:9,12,16

Asa 1:14 89:20 157:7

164:4 166:10,16,19

167:18,21 186:6

191:16 235:18 237:3

238:11 240:3 251:5

287:4

Asa's 188:21 237:22

300:10

Ashley 1:12 31:8 46:11

84:8 86:20 89:16

98:18 112:10 124:6

147:8 149:1 151:7

153:9 155:5 157:4

158:16 159:22 161:18

163:7 169:13 170:2

172:11 175:12 177:10

177:12 206:9 209:19

215:22 218:20 270:21

271:15 302:21 303:14

313:20 318:12 321:10

321:10 323:4,7

324:17 326:17

Asia-based 203:13

asked 34:21 60:13,21

72:12 168:4 181:4

202:13 227:3 236:11

314:1

asking 10:18 21:19

76:7,13 126:20

134:17 164:3 226:22

233:8 255:6 291:18

aspect 41:1 223:14
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aspects 272:11

aspirin 303:8

assent 263:6

assess 78:12 221:19

assessment 37:11

236:13

asset 45:3

assigned 325:16

326:11

assigns 298:16

assist 318:7

assistance 29:14

assists 325:9

Associate 2:18

associated 164:18,22

association 42:22 43:3

94:15,19 164:20

197:18 211:17 294:15

312:9

associations 194:14

211:16,17

assume 280:16 318:4,6

324:4

assumed 273:12

assuming 320:1

asthma 165:10

asthmagen 164:19

attached 116:6

attapulgite 3:15 147:14

147:22 148:5,21

attempted 224:15,18

attended 64:2

attention 8:5 63:3 218:3

237:12,17 238:1

256:16 261:22 302:17

auctions 43:11

audience 144:14

audio 330:2

audit 48:19,21 68:9

77:14

audits 67:3,9

augmented 234:13

authority 40:2 57:4

74:20

availability 120:1

141:15 197:15 205:5

208:10,18 218:8

225:18

available 36:9 65:4 86:5

104:14 114:16,22

115:12 117:16 120:5

120:10,20,22 132:13

136:12,16 137:9

139:10 163:18 170:11

185:12 191:8 192:1

193:17 208:14 211:8

224:7,14,17

avenue 250:12

avenues 188:8

avoid 27:1 132:5

aware 49:18 64:21

202:20 208:22 232:15

255:19 262:4,11

270:10,19 274:4,6

awful 132:8

awkward 102:1

aye 327:1,2

B

b 1:8 98:15 103:22

109:9 113:8 158:6,7

161:1 162:18

back 5:6 6:12,13 10:17

11:8 15:5 24:14,20

26:15 27:7,20 38:13

38:17 40:15 52:21

56:6,13 72:11 82:4

83:13 93:18 106:3

123:9 124:5,6 143:8

145:1,14,20 146:1

147:4,6 189:20

197:18 209:3 215:16

216:19 226:10,11

227:8 228:14,17

229:2 231:22 233:19

234:17 237:21 241:16

245:15 246:6,21

249:17,19 254:15

265:11 266:11,15,20

267:7,12 268:20

269:3 271:1,17

272:17 273:18,19

274:7 276:9 278:21

280:8 282:14,17

284:8,14 285:19

286:6 292:5,11

294:12 297:16,17

300:6 303:2 310:11

323:16

back-door 242:1

background 9:6 109:16

backwards 70:14

bacteria 138:10

bad 19:10 147:10

165:22

BAIRD 1:13 33:9 36:20

39:12 48:5 54:4 55:18

87:11 90:7 92:5 99:5

103:1 107:20 108:16

112:14 120:17 121:6

123:5 128:19 133:1

135:7 140:6 147:1

149:16 151:20 154:1

155:18 157:17 160:11

162:5 172:20 175:20

177:16 190:9 196:18

201:3 209:22 216:16

219:10 243:1 249:8

276:11 282:12,21

283:3,7 285:7 287:13

baked 156:19

baking 176:20

balance 67:3 209:1

balancing 327:18

ball 77:2

ballot 318:12

ballots 318:16 319:4,8

319:12 320:12 321:11

321:13

ballpark 61:19

Ballrooms 1:8

bamboozle 310:2

bananas 62:12

bar 80:16 169:10

barrier 220:17

barriers 85:5 195:11

196:1

base 252:21 261:21

based 41:7 98:12 122:1

133:18 192:1 209:15

209:22 211:5 217:2

271:15

basic 258:8

basically 12:9 96:13

110:14 178:21 179:14

217:11 231:2,7 246:2

253:8 317:19

basis 32:4 57:13 237:1

274:5

bath 104:9 105:22

106:11,20 107:6

108:2

baths 106:14,22

Baumgartner 24:7

be-determined 267:21

bean 301:2,2

beautiful 306:14 316:9

becoming 308:4

bedevils 44:5

beekeeping 303:4

beer 83:16

beers 152:16

began 188:2

beginning 290:1

behalf 211:13

behaving 69:16

behavior 10:9

behaviors 311:21

believe 16:14 54:13

79:11 103:15 183:2

239:3 282:3

belong 123:13

bend 312:21

beneficial 256:8

benefit 32:6 78:12

290:12 312:22

benefits 78:6,12,15

bentonite 3:16 150:2

151:5

best 73:17 119:19

163:11 166:17 185:18

185:20 198:9 220:4

241:5 268:15,21

276:20 293:7

Betsy 64:3

better 25:17 59:9 60:14

60:18 63:6 69:21 70:7

70:12 144:13 167:15

181:19 193:15,19,20

194:11 196:10 236:7

246:6 255:8 262:22

265:7,11 268:2 312:9

better- 19:10

beverage 161:7

beverages 151:1

152:17 174:14

beyond 73:1 126:11

136:9 231:9,10

293:17

biased 261:21

big 11:18 22:13 53:2,5

73:19 76:14 79:5

235:7 254:14 306:9

310:7 311:2,6 312:12

bigger 21:2 49:7 130:11

308:5

biggest 27:14 116:17

bill 43:8 238:19,20

billion 60:11

binder 202:10

binomials 220:6 221:15

biobased 235:5 296:10

biodegradable 235:5

296:10

biodiversity 28:16

29:10 33:1,3 234:10

234:12

biological 142:15

biotechnology 247:22

256:11

bipartisan 238:20

bird- 237:16

birds 128:12,15 134:5

308:8

birthday 315:3

bit 7:22 10:13 26:16

31:5,12,18 35:2,7

64:12 65:8 76:8

144:12 185:5 213:9

215:6 223:11 230:1

240:15 258:7 309:8

bite 261:3
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

334

bites 260:12

black 19:3 123:16,17

259:4

bleach 164:19 165:11

165:17 169:17

blind 128:14

blinded 128:12

BLM 294:16

blue 10:20

blueberries 14:12,13

16:6

blush 316:22

board 1:3,8 2:10 5:19

6:3,5 8:22 11:11,20

18:13,14,15 28:2

36:12 50:18 51:2

56:16 61:16 64:1 69:7

69:19 70:13 110:22

121:16 124:2,20

136:10,18 153:6

156:22 161:12 176:21

180:1 226:2 229:16

232:17 237:16 239:19

240:8 245:8 246:10

259:10,12 267:5

270:14 271:20 279:19

290:4 297:19 299:6

299:10 304:19 305:17

305:20 307:7,13,17

313:6 315:6,13

325:14 327:8,15,22

328:15,21 330:1

board's 6:10 239:18

boards 233:10,13

Bob 35:17 54:9

body 265:19

body- 95:4

bolster 29:15 69:19

boots 68:13

bothers 172:1

bought 52:20

bounds 283:21

box 128:4 129:8 187:10

273:6

boxes 128:21 129:4

131:4 283:11

BPA 300:9

BRADMAN 1:14 39:4

47:19 55:10 87:3

89:21 92:11 99:11

103:7 108:22 112:20

122:16 135:13 140:12

146:15 149:8 151:12

153:15 155:10 157:8

159:12 160:17 162:11

164:5 168:1,19 173:4

176:4 177:22 186:7

190:15 191:17 193:13

194:22 196:15 201:9

210:7 216:8 219:4

235:19 238:12 239:9

242:15 251:6 284:18

287:5 299:4 316:12

323:8,10,18 324:4

brain 22:7

brand 130:19

brass 306:8

bread 76:22

break 60:13 83:20

123:8 228:16

breakdown 16:16

breeding 235:6

breeze 31:3

brief 6:19 88:14 90:21

170:20 205:12 273:21

briefing 290:5

briefly 25:22 43:19

64:11 65:10 278:12

291:19 317:7,13

bright 31:11

Brines 2:12 84:12,13

85:8 87:19,20 88:12

90:16,17,20 92:15,16

99:16,17,18 100:17

103:15,19,20 104:5

109:7,8 113:6,7

121:11,14 124:8,9,22

136:2,3 141:6 147:14

147:15 149:21,22

152:6,7 154:9,11

156:4,5 158:4,5

160:21,22 162:16,17

173:10 174:3,4

176:11,12 178:8,9

191:2,3 201:19,20

210:19,20 216:20,22

217:5 226:10 253:22

254:1 256:2 259:3

bring 8:5 39:18 81:18

81:20 116:20 233:18

233:22 236:16 237:12

249:11 250:4 256:9

256:13,22 263:4

275:22 290:15 310:11

314:17,20 315:17

322:6

bringing 82:3 174:20

303:5

brings 36:22

BRIONES 1:14 39:2

47:17 55:8 87:15

90:11 92:9 99:9 103:5

108:20 112:18 119:1

122:14 125:2 126:10

133:15 135:11 140:10

146:13 149:6 151:10

153:13 155:22 157:21

160:15 162:9 173:2

176:2 177:20 190:13

201:7 203:9 204:5,8

206:14 210:5 216:6

219:2 242:13 279:11

285:11 287:17 295:3

326:16

broad 234:15 235:3

broader 142:4 230:9,11

230:20 294:14

broke 309:11

broken 241:3

brokers 43:10 44:13

54:11 206:6

brought 64:16 75:8

106:4 189:5 199:3

221:9 233:5 250:3

293:8 322:11

brushy 138:9

budget 238:16

buffer 180:18 181:13

bugger 69:1

BUIE 1:12 39:8 48:1

55:14 87:7 90:3 92:1

99:1 102:19 104:7

106:6 108:12 113:2

122:20 135:17 140:16

146:19 149:12 151:16

153:19 155:14 157:13

160:7 162:1 172:16

175:16 178:4 190:19

201:13 210:11 216:12

219:7 242:19 283:16

285:3 287:9 323:3

326:1

build 63:21 64:14 118:9

129:18 272:3

building 63:19 95:4

308:8

built 64:16

bunch 194:7

bundle 21:18

bundled 89:12

business 83:12 198:6,8

284:11 308:4 310:7

311:3,6 312:12 327:6

327:8

Business/Closing 4:18

butchering 226:11

button 123:16,18,18

buy 53:7

buyers 48:17 94:10

buying 80:11 82:11

187:22

buys 79:9

by-statement 41:4,12

byproduct 176:19

C

C 1:8

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 3:1

CA 298:7

CACS 5:7 56:13,14

83:12 291:21 298:9

CAFO 308:15,17 309:2

CAFOs 308:7

calcium 3:6,19 88:9

91:4 163:2 300:15,17

California 165:8 236:10

call 75:2 119:18 130:17

186:4 194:13 198:2

204:1 274:1 283:22

289:15 330:5

called 13:6 197:19

275:22 311:8 316:4

calling 289:5

calls 31:19 314:2

316:17

calves 109:21 113:19

canaries 62:18

candidates 320:3

capability 70:21

capacity 10:8 180:18

181:13 222:19 231:17

241:11 248:5

capel 107:1

carbon 3:18 9:17 19:3

160:20 161:2,5,17

carbonate 3:17 156:4,8

156:11 157:3 296:18

300:15,19

carbonation 161:7

carcinogen 165:2

card 324:16

care 129:1 165:16,16

168:21

careful 307:16

carefully 269:5

cares 52:3

caring 24:3,3

Carob 301:2

carried 65:6

carry 241:18

cartons 308:15

carve 72:17

CAS 99:20 201:21

case 61:19 64:14,16

73:3 137:7 142:22

165:20 166:11 169:16

182:5 207:16,20

270:10

cases 169:10 205:16

casings 3:21 191:1,14

191:17,22 192:6,11

192:22 193:1,2

197:11 198:3 200:19
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

335

212:22

cast 277:11 318:16

catch 152:5

category 196:22 212:15

cattle 104:10,16 125:11

130:10 194:3

cause 100:8 182:7

causing 138:8 289:6

cautionary 185:2

CCOF 143:11 203:3

celery 194:15 235:8

cell 245:5,12 253:13

254:5,11 255:11,13

255:22 256:4 261:4

264:12,14 269:11

272:11 286:22

cells 257:16

cellulose 4:6 187:18,19

188:11 226:5,9

227:11 228:11

center 20:20 21:14

233:7

centers 311:11

cents 265:14

certain 116:4 120:4

168:13 180:4 182:17

203:11 229:21 262:15

268:16 274:16 278:10

280:5 328:20

certainly 28:20 29:6

57:11,20 78:8 79:20

144:9 167:7,14 171:6

180:16 181:6 215:3

222:4,19 223:13

280:13 294:8

certificate 304:14

305:14

certification 6:6,8

22:16 27:20 28:5,12

44:14,17 57:13 85:10

141:19 207:22 223:17

225:5 227:16 250:6,8

252:21 253:5 311:18

312:1,2,5,6

certified 41:3,12,13

43:11 71:1,8 76:3,10

76:11 174:12 185:9

197:10 200:8 204:4

certifier 34:5,13 67:9,21

68:4 101:8 198:2

208:13 249:21

certifier's 198:2

certifiers 15:5 29:1

31:20 33:2 35:1,8

42:4,10,22 66:14,21

67:5 68:1,14,15 71:1

79:20 80:1 83:3 91:2

93:13 141:20 143:11

203:6 211:13 224:22

249:13 250:6,8 312:5

certify 30:9

certifying 32:6 41:13

cetera 293:17

CFR 98:16 100:2,4

122:3

chain 39:18 44:15

51:13,18 55:3 62:14

74:12 75:2 77:14

80:21 81:2 82:13,16

143:4 192:22 193:11

chains 72:20 73:16

chair 1:10,11,12 22:17

39:14 48:8 55:22 84:8

87:16 90:13 92:12

99:13 103:10 109:4

113:3 122:22 135:20

140:20 147:2,11

149:18 152:1 154:5

156:1 158:1 160:18

162:13 173:7 176:8

178:5 190:21 199:21

201:16 210:15 216:17

219:12 243:5 285:12

287:19 298:16,18,19

313:12 317:11,11

318:14,15,17,18

319:2,3,7,16,16

320:12,19 322:17,20

322:21 323:10 324:5

324:5,8,8,9,21 325:16

326:11

chairs 291:19

challenge 171:15,19

205:20 246:9,12

challenges 33:21 181:4

213:13

challenging 205:15

chance 30:4 66:8

248:15

chances 93:9

change 4:4 14:7 18:10

19:7,13 21:11 39:21

42:19 50:13 114:1

191:7 215:14 218:17

224:4,4 225:13,15,20

253:12 254:6 258:7

258:12,14,21 259:6

259:15 265:1 278:15

278:17 286:15,16

301:11 302:3

changed 18:20 40:5

110:4 150:11 214:13

243:17,18 277:18

288:6 289:6

changes 49:19 50:13

191:5 229:10 244:5

270:7,11

changing 24:14,15

212:2 262:15 272:7

277:12 290:18

channel 148:7

chaos 280:21

charge 50:16 54:9

80:17 136:21 198:5

240:14

chart 274:1,18,19 275:4

286:3,4 287:1

check 56:4 118:21

checked 85:15 93:11

checklist 85:13 195:20

196:11

checklists 93:11

cheese 178:20,21 179:5

182:1,2 186:18 187:5

187:11,14,15,21,22

cheesewax 297:2

Chellie 238:19

chemical 181:12

chemical-functional

180:21

chicken 128:2 129:3

131:10 134:1 308:7,9

chickens 62:9 125:10

129:1,2 130:8,21

308:13,14

chiggers 132:7

child 165:16,16 168:21

chips 16:17

chlorhexidine 3:6

84:19,19 85:1 86:18

chloride 173:10 174:6

174:10 175:11 297:2

300:12,16

chlorine 3:6,7,19,19

87:19,21 88:2,5,10,13

88:15,21 89:14

159:13,15 162:15,19

162:21 163:3,8,11

165:1 167:4,15 170:8

170:10 171:1,5,9

172:1,8,9 173:13

199:7 235:8 300:2

chlorite 3:18,20 158:4,8

158:18 159:21 300:2

Chloroform 164:22

165:1

choice 171:5 183:21

184:2 188:6

choose 319:13

choosing 30:22

chord 306:12

chords 306:11

Chorus 327:2

circle 54:7 234:17

circulates 325:8

cisgenesis 244:10

245:1,10 253:13

254:11 255:7,17

264:15 269:12

citations 273:22

cited 125:22

citrate 180:6,20 181:8

184:14 296:5 300:3

citric 158:11 212:17

citrus 211:5

claim 95:8

clarification 15:16

42:11 111:7 120:19

123:1 188:21 191:4

255:6 269:11

clarify 110:20 127:12

184:12 206:2 254:1

clarifying 3:12 57:3

141:3 145:18

clarity 143:17 144:5

246:11,11 251:8

252:2 261:5 267:16

276:16 293:15

classes 221:17

classic 16:3

classification 134:22

189:14 193:4 224:4

300:12

classifications 224:5

classified 124:20 135:1

136:18 139:22 152:20

217:15

classify 139:21

clay 148:6 150:6

clays 150:5 152:15

clean 106:21 168:22

169:4

cleaned 44:8

cleaner 88:21

cleaning 165:11

clear 9:18 21:1 26:2

33:6 46:16,22 49:5

52:6 166:12 190:2

194:22 215:14 217:21

223:3 244:22 250:9

259:8,13 264:11

265:16 269:19 272:12

280:9 287:2 319:2

clearest 222:20

clearly 25:14 49:13

64:6 174:1 247:7

316:8

clever 310:1

click 67:18

client 198:4

clients 211:14

Cliff 80:16
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

336

climate 40:3 278:14,16

Clinics 164:21

clock 280:1

close 43:8 141:9 195:13

302:16 330:15

closed 207:3

closely 8:20 181:9

closer 147:6

closest 180:19

closing 49:1 77:13

203:19 327:6,8,9

cloth 15:7 16:8

cloths 17:2

co- 199:20

co-mingling 199:14

co-sponsors 238:20

coagulant 174:11

coal 62:18

coal-fired 132:15

coffee 62:12 184:6

cognizant 36:21

cold 85:17,21

collaboration 144:8

325:7

colleagues 247:16

278:13 279:12 329:3

collect 319:8,12 324:19

color 20:18,19 21:16

22:3

Colorado 294:8,9

colored 18:18 19:19,21

colors 318:21

combined 114:10,21

133:19

combining 114:13

come 5:4 6:5,13 7:16

8:14 19:12 21:9 29:14

37:21 44:14,17 58:21

114:12 123:9,14,18

132:3 145:1 167:1

168:2 188:22 189:3

196:5 198:13 204:13

217:13 222:2,21

226:18 229:1,2

231:13,14 237:10

254:15 271:2 272:13

286:18 294:15 302:14

305:22

comes 73:2 105:13

132:15 163:18 192:20

279:20 290:4 314:8

comfortable 11:3,7

266:12 280:5,19

321:8

comfrey 139:12,14

coming 61:1,8 63:13

66:21 81:21 82:7

85:18 179:1 184:9

189:13 203:11 207:7

213:5 248:22 262:12

271:3 292:5 300:5

309:4

command 227:22

comment 7:6,8 8:12

9:12 10:15 15:1 23:17

23:19 27:6 42:8,16

43:13 73:22 78:19

83:6 93:14 97:21

101:9,10 114:6,7

116:10 118:15,15,18

121:20 125:15 131:20

132:22 144:22 148:10

152:22 156:16,17

158:22 159:4 161:10

163:10 164:2 174:15

174:17 176:21 179:3

179:4,8 183:13

192:19 197:11 202:18

209:6 211:11 212:9

215:12,13 217:18

219:20,22 220:1

222:22 229:12 231:1

233:4 234:1,2 238:13

241:8 244:22 249:16

254:3 255:6,8 257:8

260:9 264:3,3 266:4

269:20 290:17 293:13

294:7,12 301:8 302:2

328:5,7

commented 133:3

143:12 264:22

commenter 106:5

125:16,22 126:7,10

126:15 133:16 180:8

182:21

commenters 8:16,18

24:13 27:9 44:4 57:17

93:6 94:16 101:5

105:9 114:9,15,20

125:19 126:21 214:14

comments 11:10,13

12:19 13:3 14:2 18:5

21:7 22:10 23:6 24:10

24:13,14,19 25:9

26:17,18 35:17 43:19

49:11 51:5,11 80:7

81:6 88:19 89:4 101:2

101:3 105:2 110:7

114:5 125:14 137:19

138:1 143:5,9,10

145:5,11 148:13

150:10,15 153:2

154:21 163:20 164:6

176:22 177:3 180:17

187:5 192:2,19

196:18 197:19 203:16

205:4 209:7,8 211:19

212:16 214:11 215:17

217:12 218:7 220:9

220:16 224:6,12,16

228:5 235:20 237:7

242:4 244:12 251:4

251:20 252:10,10

260:8 261:7 265:4

279:22 280:22 289:3

289:15 291:5 315:16

327:17 328:4 329:20

commercial 181:11

197:15 207:21 208:10

208:18 212:12 225:17

commercially 114:15

115:12 139:10 224:7

commingled 20:22 21:6

Commission 236:11

commissioned 104:12

commitment 306:3,19

committee 5:6,7 56:14

104:13 106:3 150:18

153:3 159:6 191:20

195:7 196:8 225:14

246:7 266:11 267:7

269:4 292:19 297:21

298:4,7,8,9 302:12

313:13,16 325:7

committee's 105:12

commodity 73:7

common 187:2,4 225:8

251:10 306:5

commonly 114:10

116:16 176:19 224:21

communicate 80:1

231:18,18

communicating 70:12

253:1

communication 59:1,6

79:17,18,19

community 24:9 28:12

81:12 200:11 230:8

230:10,12,21 235:12

237:9 238:22 241:9

241:12 256:10 260:11

261:14 265:18 266:5

279:17 306:16,20

312:18

companies 80:14,15

198:12

company 57:7,7 80:13

187:8

compared 53:4 194:7

307:21

comparison 167:10

180:19

compatibility 126:12

compelling 308:16

competitive 231:7

complaints 64:20,21

complete 35:11 279:1,2

completed 85:7 92:21

100:15 104:3 148:3

158:13,14 161:3

163:6 174:8 178:13

211:2 318:9

complex 71:21 289:18

290:11

compliance 22:15

71:10 81:8 100:1

171:11

compliant 159:9

complicates 20:1

complication 19:17

complicity 310:3

comply 41:21,22 159:2

complying 80:22

component 241:2

comprehensive 74:6

89:5 159:5 164:3

166:3,21 167:20

168:6 170:4 172:3

computer 152:4

concentrate 106:17

concentrations 214:5

concern 17:5 26:5,21

28:10,13 61:20 66:15

70:8 101:4 119:6

127:2,7 167:5 179:9

182:8 192:3 199:4

207:14 209:8 248:17

248:20 254:7 261:5

269:22 278:17

concerned 10:7 62:16

105:21 129:7 181:19

199:13 273:6 281:12

281:13

concerning 295:13

concerns 26:10,13

27:14 49:13,15

179:14 298:19

concludes 147:5

291:10

conclusion 225:14

318:5

conclusive 179:15

conditions 125:17

conduct 284:10

conducted 85:2 236:5

confectioners 211:22

conference 278:15

confidence 69:19

confident 137:21

confidential 320:11

confidentiality 64:15

confidently 171:3
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confirmation 42:11

conflict 132:8

confused 117:13

264:13 282:14

confusing 271:8

confusion 26:3 45:13

117:3 143:16 245:11

259:17 289:6 297:21

298:2

Congratulations

324:22

Congress 311:7

connected 70:1

connection 240:16

consensus 235:11

277:22

conserve 8:18

consider 16:12 43:21

77:9 115:2 136:15

170:15 262:5

consideration 183:6

289:20 317:15

considerations 137:12

considered 16:11 40:14

40:22 132:11 136:10

153:1 164:19 183:2

264:14 297:12

considering 220:3

considers 6:9

consistency 141:19

220:4 246:17 263:4

274:5

consistent 14:22 34:15

34:16 249:18 252:7

271:19 275:21 276:7

282:20 304:7

consistently 220:19

248:9 297:11

constant 64:18 272:7

constantly 249:3

261:16

constituents 241:15

constraint 57:21

consult 240:6 254:21

consultation 251:13

consulting 248:5

consume 184:18,19

consumer 43:7 75:9

79:9 80:13,15 159:2

183:18 314:19

consumer's 79:6

consumers 62:8,22

79:7,15 95:7 141:21

182:10 185:7 188:5

308:13 310:13,16

311:14 312:13 313:2

consumers' 188:3

consuming 184:1

consumption 10:2

185:19

cont 4:1

contact 158:10 162:20

163:9

contacts 231:16

contain 116:11

container 3:2 6:21 7:21

8:4 13:7,19 14:4

15:18,19,21 17:7,12

296:11 310:1

containers 7:4,17,21

13:21 14:13 17:22

41:7,20

contamination 163:19

171:17 291:3 303:18

contentious 314:8

context 36:7

continual 29:1

continually 166:5

continuation 296:9

continue 5:7 6:16 38:18

40:16 50:8,18 51:2

67:6 72:3 75:3 146:2

229:2 241:12 245:22

247:4 266:2 284:15

288:1 300:10 312:20

325:22

continued 114:8 303:20

315:19

continues 285:14

continuing 88:1 99:19

150:1 152:8 162:17

169:20 176:13 221:10

228:3,10 246:13

328:20

continuous 192:3

267:20 310:22

contribute 265:21

control 104:9 125:6

159:1 161:8 164:14

181:10 311:5

controversy 26:8

convenience 187:22

conventional 128:3

130:22 163:16 199:4

199:12 208:7 209:10

209:10 212:4 214:5

239:7

conventionally-sourc...

212:5

conversation 16:10

83:8 173:12 180:15

233:12 234:9 241:6

247:14 262:7 277:4

277:21 293:5

conversations 59:4

63:22 124:3 270:12

293:9 328:13

convert 3:3 23:1

convinced 60:1,20

Cooperative 94:11

coordinates 37:17

copper 3:9 99:15

103:18 104:2,7,19

107:15 108:6 235:5

copy 206:20

corn 53:16 199:9

Cornucopia 126:17

correct 45:13,14 46:4

47:1 121:19 130:10

205:8 206:4 221:5,6

226:11 246:2 255:12

286:3 295:21 324:1

corroding 310:9

cost 32:19 44:17 78:12

78:15 132:17

cost- 32:5

costs 78:7

Council 199:22

counted 319:4

counting 318:11

countries 12:2,4 71:21

country 35:21 36:15

67:21 68:4 94:22

116:18

couple 10:14 52:20

58:19 79:9 105:9

114:15 115:20 197:13

209:7 218:6 227:11

233:22 243:12 289:15

293:21 304:6 315:3

course 13:8 33:13

40:11 139:7 169:6

182:2 239:2 249:11

278:4 329:6

Court 69:18

cover 17:21 120:8

316:5,6

covered 282:13,13

306:8

covering 16:19

covers 296:20

cow 33:15

cows 33:11 34:10 82:10

308:16,21

CPG 80:13

crack 248:4

crammed 308:8

crazy 48:21 75:20

170:12

cream 176:20 181:18

181:20,22 182:21

183:7 218:5 315:7,8

create 218:10 270:5

created 230:5

creating 173:19 195:16

creation 311:17

creative 281:6

creature 246:16

credited 312:6

creep 278:18,18,19

criteria 37:6 98:13

122:2 169:11 209:16

244:15,16,20 257:5,7

257:12,20 258:1,5,9

262:21 263:2 264:8,9

272:6,12 274:19

322:3

critical 131:18 150:16

153:1 167:7 171:10

171:21

critically 170:7

critique 250:22

crop 15:12,12,20 22:12

23:1 30:9 52:17 53:4

53:10 94:11 130:3

142:6 171:17 221:5

221:10 309:9 316:6

CROPP 117:7

cropping 199:15

crops 5:6 6:17 8:7

14:19 15:3 17:21 53:1

53:2 105:10 125:5

132:3 142:13 220:22

223:4,13,18 229:11

295:17 296:1 298:1,8

302:15 316:5

crossed 89:6

crossroad 312:20

crushed 152:15

crystal 166:11

cultivation 36:4

cultural 37:5,8 142:15

culture 234:6

cupboard 187:11

curd 202:7

curious 8:21 28:3 56:22

106:10 115:19 208:20

297:8

current 20:9 138:5,13

216:22 218:11 243:13

256:5 262:22 298:18

currently 12:11 14:8

114:7 125:4 178:17

202:19 217:14 301:17

curve 33:17

customer 75:14 173:19

customers 76:13

181:21

cycles 12:6

D

D 296:4
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Dae 55:6

daily 262:10

dairies 107:1 308:15

dairy 82:11 89:1 94:1,2

94:19,22 95:7,12 96:1

96:11 97:11 98:5

100:13 104:10,16

106:19 109:13 112:3

113:12 178:12,17

309:1 313:14 315:6

Dakota 294:9 295:5

Dan 1:18 56:19 100:16

101:17 102:14 109:14

110:20 112:7 113:14

115:9,21 122:5,8

190:6 207:12 208:2

251:19 255:3 260:7

269:1 280:2 286:8

288:5 291:8 297:3

304:4,10,11 326:3

Danone 94:12

data 165:7 198:16,19

205:15 237:21 238:3

238:6 290:12

database 205:11 206:2

date 103:14 121:13,14

121:18 216:20 217:1

dated 152:12 154:15

156:8

dates 226:11,15

Dave 1:16 9:12 35:15

36:20 56:19 58:17

102:17 115:17 144:3

145:22 169:13 172:14

199:1 230:18 242:10

249:11 252:15 278:7

David 72:12

day 13:13 167:11

308:12,22

daylight 12:5,6

days 27:20 100:10,12

109:11,12 111:8,9

113:10,12

DDT 164:13

de-oiled 301:3

deal 7:3 15:9 23:10 43:5

129:17 168:20 195:8

220:9 309:10

dealing 7:15 61:7 94:8

171:17 292:6

dear 279:7

dearly 306:1

debate 224:19

debt 53:6

debud 109:21 113:19

deception 310:2

deceptively 309:21

decide 245:12

decided 40:16 227:20

257:19 259:12 264:14

267:22 288:18

deciding 244:16

decision 66:4,7,11

217:20 241:18 252:1

252:21 253:6 258:15

259:9 281:14,15

decisions 182:13

213:14 250:7,9

268:14,21 328:2

declared 166:10

decree 278:15

dedicated 238:16

305:15

dedication 330:2

deeper 204:17

defensible 248:9

deferred 4:11 291:13

305:3

deficiency 195:8

define 25:21 26:2 142:1

142:8 144:20 250:20

257:6 263:15 274:12

defined 27:3 71:4

251:14 257:14

defining 26:21 142:3

252:7,7 258:3 276:17

definitely 11:3,16 12:14

16:1 20:12 22:13

25:11 29:12 31:21

34:17 49:8 51:7 82:2

96:19 143:16 166:15

167:4 170:21 171:5

232:4 234:9 235:7

248:19 249:9 316:7

definition 24:15,16

27:13 40:20 145:7,10

243:13 245:1 248:16

249:14 252:18 253:4

255:8 257:2 259:18

262:13 264:4,22

272:3,8 274:3 275:20

278:1 281:21 283:2

283:11 324:1,3

definitions 245:9,13,15

246:4,19,21 247:11

247:11,21 248:2,10

249:9,20 250:10

251:7 253:10,17

257:9,22 260:18

261:1 262:20 263:1

263:11,16 264:2,7

269:19 271:4,7,12,17

272:5,18 273:2,6,13

274:2,14,15,21 276:1

277:7,15 279:2,2,14

279:15,16 281:7

282:18 283:17

definitive 280:12

degrading 16:8

degree 10:22 234:12

235:10

delay 260:1

delaying 254:7 259:9

delays 254:17

delegates 325:10

deliberations 327:16

delisted 115:6

delude 312:21

demand 53:16,18 54:1

demanding 75:15 233:8

310:17

demonstrates 203:10

denying 66:7

department 1:1 50:12

54:6 78:4 80:17

173:21 200:12 233:19

236:10 256:14 270:13

276:18

Department's 51:16

depending 7:19 236:15

298:21

depends 16:4

depth 32:7 306:2

deputy 2:18 290:3

derived 174:7 178:18

202:3

describing 241:1

description 273:21

274:3 275:4 283:1

325:15

descriptions 275:19,21

276:4,5,12,14 277:7

277:15

design 33:22

Designated 2:20

designs 34:5

desire 213:1

despite 51:21

desserts 156:19 204:9

destroy 35:4

destroyed 30:11

detail 7:9,22 25:2 27:2

51:9 93:13 274:13

detailed 24:12

details 67:13 222:12

detecting 58:3

detergents 156:21

determination 38:2

244:21 274:20 298:14

determinations 34:16

275:1

determine 73:17 81:8

221:22 276:4

determined 261:4

282:16 283:4 287:1

determining 37:15

develop 193:18 262:13

263:10 288:18,19

293:4

developed 94:3 189:5

198:13

developing 42:5 262:19

293:3

development 136:13

192:5 200:12,13

234:7 304:4 324:12

Devon 2:16 329:4

devotion 306:19

DFO 329:10

di 300:18

dialog 59:5 68:22

dialogue 212:7 240:1

248:19

diatomaceous 3:16

127:15,18 129:20

131:12,15 149:20

152:10 153:8

dicey 15:2

diet 199:7

dietary 174:12

difference 111:10 120:1

137:6 186:20 266:7

differences 36:22 107:4

278:9 280:4

different 7:9 9:2,6 11:1

14:8 16:5 17:14 27:12

31:12,16 42:3 61:7

72:19 73:8 77:2 82:15

94:7 130:8 137:11

222:12 223:11 230:14

243:19,20 244:16

differently 145:6

192:18

difficult 82:15 193:6,11

215:3 220:18 222:17

309:14

difficulty 194:6 212:8

212:10 215:5

digging 49:9 74:10

dihydrogen 300:3

diligence 58:11

diligent 167:1

dilution 128:8

dioxide 3:7,18,19 88:10

160:20 161:2,5,17

163:3 300:2,19

dip 85:3,17,21 303:3

direct 49:20 56:18

158:9

directed 77:4

direction 8:15 9:19 52:8

227:9
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directions 9:2

Directives 66:13

directly 21:19 105:14

118:17 298:15

Director 2:14

disagree 107:20 280:10

disagreed 215:14

disappear 315:18

discard 100:12

discerning 310:16

311:14

discharge 167:6

disciplines 241:4

disclaimer 277:8

disclosed 73:9

disclosure 186:3,4

214:17

disconnect 17:20 18:1

discordant 306:13

307:3

discourage 58:11

discretion 239:18

320:14

discuss 21:10 24:18

25:21 143:19 222:5

291:19

discussed 142:3

230:16 256:8 290:6

316:5

discussing 11:13

221:12 267:1

discussion 3:2 4:3,10

5:20 6:12,20,22 7:2

7:13 8:13 16:15 18:17

20:14 23:8 25:7 38:19

39:20 45:1,17,21

46:10 47:4,8 48:11

54:21 56:3 59:1,8

86:14 89:10 91:12

93:21 96:8 97:4 98:9

101:18 102:10 108:3

110:16 111:5 112:3

115:10,17 117:5

121:7 126:5 134:14

144:3 146:2,7 148:19

150:20 151:3 153:5

155:1 159:11 161:14

164:4 169:22 175:2,5

177:6 180:8 186:20

186:22 189:21 192:2

192:9,14 200:17

203:1 209:12 212:20

219:16 220:11 222:3

222:5 227:19 232:12

235:17,19 237:11

238:22 242:5 245:7

245:19 267:14 284:15

285:14 288:4,11,14

288:17,21,22 292:1

316:18

discussions 237:7

disease 125:6 165:22

diseases 104:10,16

disinfect 163:9 169:1,5

disinfectant 88:7,16

162:22 165:12

disinfectants 84:21

disinfected 85:17

disinfecting 88:3

158:20 162:19

disinfection 169:7

dislike 171:22

disposal 13:2 105:16

106:11

disposed 104:20

105:18 106:2 320:12

disregard 207:8

dissonant 306:11

distribute 319:8

distributed 230:18

distribution 41:16

distributors 62:20

dive 51:9

diverse 72:20

diversity 24:4

Division 2:15

docket 7:11 207:4,10

237:9 264:6 277:10

289:4 294:3 325:13

docket's 207:3

Doctor 329:3

document 3:2 4:3,10

6:20 7:2,13 16:15

40:15 43:16 44:6

46:13 64:9 145:1

219:16,19 220:8

222:3,6 229:9,15,19

231:5 235:12 236:22

237:11 243:9 245:16

245:21 246:10 247:2

249:3 251:16 252:5

253:3,15,16 255:22

256:3 258:18 262:2

262:22 263:19 265:15

265:15 267:17 269:6

275:1,22 279:21

280:14 282:2,5,6,10

282:17 283:9,17,19

284:3,4,5,15 288:2,5

288:18,22 290:7

292:5 303:20 309:13

documentation 57:6

68:12 309:6

documented 32:17

documents 71:20

288:11 289:1

dodecylbenzene 300:1

dogging 237:17

doing 27:17 67:3 68:5

69:20 70:7 75:16,21

76:21 79:6 81:9,13

85:18 131:1 158:18

170:15 200:6 228:3

232:7,14,21 239:22

249:5 256:15 272:1

329:14

dollars 237:18 238:1

239:5,5

domestic 51:13 74:17

74:19 125:10 213:2

domestically 30:17

51:19 213:11

door 185:7,8 203:19

295:22

doubled 111:16,17

dovetail 33:6

dozen 46:14

dozens 73:13

draw 57:11

dream 197:20

dried 187:5

drink 184:5

Drinking 88:7 163:1

drove 48:20

drug 99:21 100:2 102:2

drugs 116:22

ducks 125:10

due 58:10 141:8 148:12

219:19

dug 229:11

dump 106:16

dumped 106:15

dumping 105:22

dunk 263:14

duration 109:18 113:17

dust 128:4,20 129:4,8

130:14 131:4 133:20

duties 324:9 326:11

dying 167:11

E

ear 46:12

earlier 202:12 292:1

early 38:21 103:16

121:17 154:21 156:11

158:18

earth 3:16 10:9 127:15

127:18 129:20 131:13

131:15 149:21 152:10

153:8

easier 74:19 171:21

184:15 252:1

easily 207:6 232:19

290:13

East 64:3

Eastern 295:1

easy 130:5 263:17

272:12 309:15

eat 167:12 184:6 194:19

eaten 82:10

echo 11:12 12:8,14

20:13 79:3 130:3

171:14,22 186:5,7

196:18 215:10 252:9

260:7 263:22 294:5

299:4 315:22

echoes 236:2

ecology 234:3

economic 44:16 77:6,9

78:1 200:12,13 234:7

ecosystem 24:17 25:21

26:6,21 30:6 31:15

33:4 35:3 36:12 37:19

223:10

ecosystems 3:4 23:1

23:22 27:16,22 29:11

30:19 32:8 292:11

edge 249:1

educated 34:11

education 257:18

effect 53:14 77:19,22

89:1 139:14 181:15

effective 115:3 116:15

116:16 181:9 198:11

231:19 236:20

effectiveness 85:5

effects 100:7,19

efficiencies 173:19

efficiency 10:7,11

170:22

efficient 227:20

effort 232:16 251:13

327:18

egg 128:17 308:15

eggs 62:9 76:16

eight 100:10 111:9

244:14

either 65:5 94:5 114:20

118:21 127:22 183:15

203:16 213:8 228:4

247:18 280:19 283:1

312:20 319:13 321:14

324:17

ELA 1:15 15:2 17:5

20:13 39:6 47:21

55:12 87:5 90:1 91:21

98:21 103:9 109:2

112:22 122:18 130:2

135:15 140:14 146:17

149:10 151:14 153:17

153:22 155:12 157:11

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176:18 178:2 190:17

192:16 201:11 205:2

210:9 214:9 216:10

217:11 218:6 219:6

237:14 241:7 242:17

263:8 266:9 267:2

284:20 286:12,15,19

287:7 294:5 302:10

315:12

elaborate 126:6 223:6

elected 318:2,4 319:21

election 317:8 319:10

319:18 322:20

elections 4:16 317:5,10

318:16 325:10

electrolytes 303:9

elegant 27:11

element 132:13

elemental 296:21

elephant 202:4

Eleven 210:16

eligible 317:15

eliminated 320:2

eliminating 3:3 22:22

email 75:14 302:14

emails 206:19

emerge 40:9

emergence 192:4,10

emergency 3:12 141:4

141:17 142:1,4,5,9

145:8,19

emerging 79:8 262:9

Emily 1:17 11:11 20:2

25:7 31:9,22 38:3,11

38:16,20,21 45:18

46:9 47:12 63:18 79:2

111:20 120:6 126:5

126:18 131:20 144:6

149:3 166:8 182:4

184:10 206:9,16

213:15,22 221:6

223:1 229:7 231:3

242:9 247:9 248:20

260:5 265:5 272:14

278:5 279:4 284:1

292:17 295:7 313:21

316:1 321:2 322:22

Emily's 130:3 185:15

emphasis 167:14

emphasize 68:7 72:7

166:17,22 171:10

emphasizing 67:4

234:15

employee 314:19

empower 50:12

emulsifier 178:21 179:5

enable 311:13

enclosure 12:21

encounter 27:22 32:4,9

encourage 7:12 8:1

50:18 51:2 77:9 97:10

197:3 207:2 214:14

223:17 224:9 225:19

294:1

encouraged 51:14

encouragement 40:1

endangered 24:5

ended 181:7

energy 8:18 10:2,7,11

329:17

energy-intensive 9:20

enforce 26:10 279:13

enforcement 50:21,22

51:17 52:4 64:5,10,13

64:18 65:5,11,19

74:20 82:4,7 279:17

enforcing 279:20

engaged 63:16

engagement 266:4

engages 78:4

engineering 275:6

enjoyed 328:11

ENO 77:15,16

ensure 75:16,21 76:21

163:14 167:8 311:19

313:3 324:14

entail 223:5

entire 51:18 62:18

67:10 70:22

entirety 299:21

entities 43:10

entrepreneur 197:22

entrepreneurial 197:20

entrepreneurs 192:5

entrusting 36:14

entry 61:5,5,11 63:7

environment 36:13

37:8 50:14 169:18

270:7

environmental 37:10

126:14 164:21 167:5

221:14,21

EPA 165:13 169:9

173:17

epolene 300:17

equal 60:10,11 312:16

equate 33:4

equipment 53:7 88:4

158:20

equivalent 171:9

esoteric 323:13

especially 17:1,6 49:11

62:1 85:17,20 107:22

119:13 120:12 173:14

188:4 193:6 245:1,4

247:16 256:13 330:4

essential 86:1 95:10

156:18 163:22 164:8

164:18 165:19 166:18

167:7 168:11 179:5

183:15,17 184:5,5,6

211:20

essentiality 98:16

122:4 179:10 182:17

183:14 184:4 209:17

establish 193:11 309:2

established 312:14

establishes 256:4

establishment 311:12

esters 296:22 303:11

estimation 238:13

et 293:17

ethanol 296:17 303:8

ethylene 297:1

Europe 97:5 186:13,14

186:19 187:3 213:18

European 12:2 213:19

evaluated 244:15

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ii 98:15

iii 98:15

illegal 73:4

illustrated 234:9

image 308:13

imagine 279:19

immediately 103:17

253:9

impact 44:12,16 49:19

69:6 70:9 77:6,10

78:2 126:13,20 133:9

134:4 221:14,21

305:19

impacts 44:11 75:8,12

133:4 165:6,22 166:1

167:3 179:9 212:4

234:11 295:11

impede 260:1

implement 237:2 260:4

implementation 44:1

implemented 143:13

implications 166:6

183:16

implying 60:19

import 49:7 51:12 75:2

80:11

importance 77:12

important 5:11 9:14

16:12 23:22 43:17

48:14 51:20 63:2,15

68:7,10,15 69:3 70:18

77:14 80:18 82:19

85:11 97:21 110:17

111:4 131:9 134:11

138:16 164:9 165:18

165:20 168:3 169:2

170:5,8 207:9 223:14

234:16 252:13 307:12

328:3

imported 58:6 62:1,6

importers 43:11

imports 40:12 49:6,10

50:4,5,22 51:8,18

56:3 58:21 60:9,11

73:4 74:12,14 75:1

82:6 292:3 309:12

impossible 181:11

impressed 96:10

impression 297:4

improve 71:7 144:22

166:5 237:1

improved 69:9 80:3

improvement 310:22

improvements 72:5

improving 238:17

impurities 148:9 150:8

in- 12:20

in-depth 192:9

in-food 221:4

in-the-ground 14:5

inability 203:11

incentive 3:3 22:22

include 41:3 120:10

172:3 183:22 220:22

222:7 246:4 247:10

253:13,16 254:11

265:22 273:5

included 230:3,5

269:11 270:2 320:7

includes 245:12

including 43:10 96:13

125:20 262:20 290:7

307:21

incoming 318:7

incompleteness 280:6

incorporate 26:16

incorporated 17:8

124:13

incorporating 17:10,13

17:16

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incorrectly 46:4,14,17

47:1

increase 32:19 61:1

238:21

increased 66:15,15

169:16

increasing 67:9

increasingly 311:4,5

incredibly 68:9,15

independent 189:12

indicate 297:8

indicated 50:20

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indicating 203:6

indicator 78:9

indicators 78:11

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individual 85:14

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industrial- 309:19

industrially 21:4

industries 150:8,17

industry 51:6,10 53:17

66:18 67:12 71:17

73:1 89:1 152:18

192:12 194:17 212:8

225:19 294:10 307:19

308:5,9 309:21 311:7

311:9 312:17,21

313:15

infection 138:18

infestation 131:7

infinite 241:20

influence 307:20,22

310:8 311:2

info 148:12

inform 10:12 69:15

248:6

information 10:10

11:19 65:4 80:1

127:11 173:22 186:13

196:3 202:16,21

205:18 207:7,20

252:19,21 300:7

327:22

infrastructure 293:19

293:20 295:14

ingredient 41:4,10

80:17 91:4 179:17

183:3 202:15,19

212:6 213:20

ingredients 80:21

119:12 147:18,20

191:12 198:18 203:10

221:5

inherently 171:18

initial 56:16 268:20

277:22

initiative 36:5 240:18

initiatives 79:1

ink 19:19

inks 18:18,19 19:10

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Innovacyn 136:5

input 17:10 42:14 63:9

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202:13 211:16 221:5

222:21 223:9 265:18

294:3

inputs 223:5,12 293:16

293:16 303:19

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173:17

insightful 169:15

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32:11 309:1 312:3

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33:10 85:19 107:22

131:1

inspector 30:7 31:18

34:4 292:7

inspector's 16:7

inspectors 27:15,19

28:17 29:2 31:11,21

32:3 33:2,17 34:7

43:3 48:16 141:21

292:6

install 170:13

instance 180:6 246:1

instances 32:20

instant 97:2

Institute 126:17 231:6

232:9 247:17

instrument 321:22

insurmountable 171:19

intact 30:19

integrated 312:2

integrity 4:10 43:5

44:20 62:5 74:13 75:2

77:11 80:18 82:4

205:11 289:7,9 291:1

303:18 311:19 313:3

intelligent 70:6

intend 63:15

intended 25:10 100:11

109:12 113:11 204:21

258:13 259:18

intent 39:21 250:20

254:4 259:13 290:15

intention 25:15 253:14

254:11 262:1

intentionally 165:4

interact 181:1

interchangeable

119:20

interchanged 44:5

interest 36:8 50:21

51:17 53:22 56:5 86:2

212:2 256:14 289:6

297:6

interested 9:4 28:6

78:22 292:19

interesting 10:3 133:2

156:20 213:3 214:11

220:16 235:21

interests 312:11,12,21

internal 131:16 243:21

257:11

internalized 302:15

internally 293:12

international 43:2

51:11 74:16 124:13

internationally 30:17

51:19 73:6

internet 275:11

interpretation 42:2,7,12

144:18

interpreted 192:18

interval 60:9 111:8,8

intervention 253:7

intestinal 199:11

intestines 191:14

intragenesis 244:10

255:9

introduce 124:8,10

introduction 87:22

141:5

invested 329:17

investigated 181:6

investigation 308:20

investigations 65:14

67:14

investigative 308:17

invite 239:14

inviting 265:18,20,21

266:4 289:1

involve 165:11

involved 41:15 80:4

240:4

involvement 315:20

iodine 85:21

IOIA 43:2

ironically 273:5 284:20

irrelevant 281:11

irrespective 181:12

irritant 127:1 130:15

167:5

irritations 127:6

isolate 179:17

isolated 106:20 294:19

isopropanol 296:18

303:8

isothiocyanate 296:4

issue 7:15 8:14 19:15

21:2,6,8 23:18 37:22

40:9,12,17 43:1 49:8

58:21 61:22 68:1

72:22 73:11 74:20

78:22 101:7 105:13

116:17 127:4 132:6

133:11 145:5 165:20

168:3,20 185:17,19

185:20 209:1 220:6

256:5 269:12 279:7

288:11 289:18,18

290:12 292:2 293:14

294:8 295:4 297:6

issued 15:8 66:13

issues 8:3,3 16:20 19:4

19:5 42:21 57:15 65:3

65:21 79:12 80:2 94:8

95:14 106:7 114:20

115:20 189:18 199:11

209:2 223:19 227:11

259:3 270:14 296:12

303:19 312:17 315:17

issuing 68:2

it'd 239:21 265:11

itchy 132:1

item 8:7 18:7 51:8

72:13,16 91:6 146:2

173:14 183:17 189:3

189:5 193:7 195:21

196:7,11 197:14

208:6 226:8,17

229:17 235:20 243:7

244:16 266:19 288:4

297:9,13 299:6

items 6:19 7:16 168:10

179:12 189:11 194:4

195:8,18 198:11

208:19 229:10,10

244:13,14,19 245:16

259:10 260:12 261:8

267:19,21 268:19

269:14 293:4

ivermectin 141:12

J

Jacksonville 1:9,9

jams 211:9,22

janitorial 165:10

January 313:18 315:10

318:10

Japan-based 203:13

Jean 111:14

jellies 211:22

jello 134:9

jelly 133:17

JENNIFER 2:18

Jenny 69:2 305:10

306:21 327:13

Jess 283:13

Jesse 1:12 102:14

104:6 105:6 108:8,11

135:4 175:15 318:12

321:15 324:18 325:19

325:21

jive 130:11

Jo 24:6 25:18

job 34:7 70:12 325:15

329:14

Joelle 1:16 12:7 91:19

148:4,22 150:4 151:6

152:13 153:9 160:3

166:14 167:19,21

170:19 172:12 182:19

183:12 260:15 261:10

263:21 267:14 269:16

281:4 284:10 326:6

Joelle's 271:3

joke 84:2

jokes 84:3

Journal 21:16,21 22:1

judge 30:13

judgment 31:19

juice 213:7

juices 152:16

July 136:5

jump 84:11 147:13

154:11

Jumping 291:15

jumping-off 11:21

justify 23:12

K

Kansas 37:1

keep 13:1 19:15 36:14

52:14 53:5 67:15

79:18 88:14 90:21

93:12 97:16 110:14

111:4 157:8 167:13

192:7 224:15,18

244:4 248:16 261:15

261:16,19 275:13

288:20 295:6

keeping 102:4 142:7

252:4

kept 93:21 101:11

ketosis 91:3

key 65:14

kill 89:3 168:16

killing 53:22

kinds 11:14 204:6

kits 187:14

knew 7:18 35:22 244:3

245:2

knowing 71:1 128:12
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176:19 207:21 253:6

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202:2,7 203:12

205:12 206:12 209:10

209:14 216:19

L

label 62:19 77:11 79:11

79:13 96:18 188:6

214:21 297:7,21

310:11,15,19,20

311:13,15,17

labeled 41:3,22 147:19

183:3 188:5 191:13

labeling 41:2,6 297:22

labels 41:10

laborious 250:17

lack 148:12 191:22

227:17 259:18 309:6

lacking 269:19

lactic 212:17

lagged 194:10

laid 198:6

lameness 104:16

land 16:19 27:4 36:8,16

52:21 106:16,17

land's 29:21

Landis 124:12

landscape 13:21 31:16

language 42:17 43:20

143:15 230:13 244:3

lard 133:19 134:9

large 48:18 80:14 111:9

182:6 184:20 187:7,8

309:4

large-theory 98:3

larger 73:12 197:4

236:6

largest 94:10 98:5

latest 249:5

Latin 220:5,14 221:15

laudable 69:5

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Laughter 83:17 186:16

237:5 238:10 259:1

281:3 288:12 299:16

299:19 304:17 317:1

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lavender 15:3 16:6 86:4

law 99:20

lawful 99:22 100:5

layers 77:17

lead 6:22 18:10 23:3

111:14 134:2 234:4

241:1 295:20 300:10

leader 232:2 240:18

leadership 6:13 232:10

232:15 290:2 293:6

297:17 316:8 328:19

328:20

leading 44:19

leads 34:14 179:19

leaning 263:18

learn 72:4 239:6

learned 70:20 97:6

261:18 307:13,14,18

learning 33:16 328:12

leave 15:12 44:21

239:17 245:18 258:22

277:17

leavening 156:12

leaves 95:7

leaving 116:7

lecithin 301:3

led 115:20

left 11:20,20 313:19

legislation 49:22

legislative 49:18 50:11

lemon 213:6

lemons 213:5

lengthy 76:6 230:13

lessen 107:14

let's 30:2 54:17 59:18

77:21 83:21 84:10

116:9 246:12 254:20

281:2 299:9

letter 120:8

letting 117:8

level 64:15 68:5 115:5

169:5,8,21 197:8

200:10 224:22 236:8

236:15 256:20 257:15

275:3 278:2 312:4

levels 70:21,22 71:4

83:2,4 88:5 162:21

310:9

LEWIS 2:14 173:11

208:22 232:6 233:17

239:17 240:21 246:8

247:13 256:7,20

262:7 268:13 270:8

276:15 277:19 282:5

289:22 293:2 327:13

liaison 237:20

licensed 99:22 100:6

lidocaine 3:9 109:7,9

109:16,20 112:6

113:15,22 114:3

115:2,13 116:15

117:19,20 119:4,20

120:5

life 24:4 54:4 166:3

lifelong 165:22

lifestyle 188:1

light 7:8 8:17 10:6,11

10:11,18,19,20 11:4

11:17 12:4 13:9,12,16

223:14 308:12

lighting 9:15,22 10:1,21

liked 93:15

lime 213:6 296:21,22

303:10

limes 213:5

limit 88:7 162:22 212:3

limitations 207:1 234:5

limited 13:12 59:21

limited-scope 136:14

line 62:17 79:18 219:20

229:16 244:5 310:12

lines 88:18 171:16

183:1

link 65:16 67:17 206:21

linkage 238:6

linked 17:15

linking 69:13

Lipson's 235:20

liquid 296:22 309:22

Lisa 1:15 2:12 10:15

12:9 63:17 75:5 79:4

87:1 105:7 147:10,10

155:5,8 157:4 160:1

161:18 173:11 175:12

188:16 190:3 200:20

253:22 260:10 271:14

272:14 284:16 286:11

299:14 301:5 302:10

320:22 329:4

Lisa's 11:12 72:8

list 2:12 4:5,6 41:4

67:18 84:16 86:10

91:7 93:19 95:2 96:6

96:20 98:14 101:15

102:5 105:1 110:14

111:4 119:8 124:15

136:7 137:4,18,20,22

138:6 142:21 153:4

154:22 161:11 168:9

170:9 174:17 175:1

179:2 187:20 191:10

196:4,14 198:12

201:21 212:19 223:12

224:16 227:1 244:11

244:12 258:10 262:3

269:15 296:14 304:22

listed 5:8 114:12

137:15 186:10 203:3

214:10 225:3 235:3

244:19 255:12 269:10

275:20 286:22 301:17

listened 314:4

listing 4:5 85:1 86:22

88:2 90:19 92:18

99:19 104:2 109:9

113:8 114:8 125:15

125:16,20 126:8,16

147:22 150:2,12,19

152:9 154:13 156:7

158:8 161:2 162:18

174:6 176:14 178:11

191:14 199:17 214:12

218:8,11,17 221:15

224:19

listings 206:2 230:6

lists 224:18 241:22

lit 176:20

literally 281:9

little 7:22 15:16 18:3

19:20 26:8,16 31:5,12

35:2,7 42:2 48:21

64:12 65:8 101:9

109:15 117:13 128:8

144:12 181:19 185:5

187:14 196:9 198:6

200:9 205:20 213:9

214:20 215:6,8

222:13 229:19 230:1

238:5 248:11 258:7

260:12 261:3 280:20

281:20

live 271:9

livestock 3:5,13 83:18

83:19,21 84:6,10,14

84:17 85:12 86:5

88:16 91:7 97:7

100:11 104:8,13,18

104:21 105:11,13

109:12 110:11 113:11

118:6 124:5,18 125:3

125:4,10 127:9 130:9

134:10 137:5,14,16

141:5,8 142:8 144:17

145:20,21 147:6

158:14 196:20 197:7

197:9 200:2 235:6

302:20,22 313:12

living 7:20 249:3

265:15 272:4 280:5

280:14 282:2,6,10,17

283:9,19 284:3,4

303:20

loads 63:10

local 36:7 76:5 104:1

108:8 109:10,16

113:9,16 117:18

locally 54:1

Locust 301:2
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lodged 207:16

logical 299:3

long 29:19 48:19 84:1

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308:18

longer 17:1 36:3 71:8,9

119:16 159:12

look 7:12 8:1 12:1

16:22 28:17 30:4 40:1

42:10 71:2 73:16 89:5

97:11 119:12 127:14

138:17 145:10 167:2

170:6,9,14 173:18

184:4 185:16 195:9

197:22 204:17 220:3

221:11 226:3 276:12

289:17 292:6,8

293:10

looked 8:12 18:9 82:8

111:15 142:11 181:6

195:10 205:9 207:22

250:14

looking 7:21 9:9,10,20

11:8 12:3 16:7 20:12

21:17 23:11 29:6,12

29:13 30:13 31:13

35:13 58:13 67:2

74:11 79:10 89:7

107:9 110:5 117:17

142:14 143:2 154:20

168:7 171:15 173:20

194:14 204:12 220:15

221:2,13 225:11

251:3 253:21 256:19

256:19 268:1 272:6

273:18,19 283:14

290:5,18 292:20

293:14,15 297:7

315:19 328:22

looks 60:2 77:16 78:5

121:8 139:19 142:9

143:7 172:5

loophole 48:18

loopholes 25:12,15

43:9 77:13

lose 118:4 133:10

196:21 197:7 272:22

302:10

lost 53:3 54:19 63:14

81:9 85:5 123:12

lot 7:5,8 9:15,16,22

10:1 11:1 16:22 19:3

19:18 26:17 27:18

30:16 32:10,13 33:22

36:3 37:14 38:1 42:13

42:15 43:12,13 44:5

45:4 50:20 51:10 61:9

65:2 72:18,19,21 73:5

73:8,8,22 74:4 76:1,2

81:11 82:6,9 85:14

88:16 89:2,8 96:11

97:22 107:21 130:21

134:15 137:13 138:7

138:22 143:5,18

144:12,14,18 152:22

165:11,15,16 168:20

169:17 170:17 177:3

179:8 183:9 184:15

195:10 196:19 202:15

202:21 203:12,16

206:18 213:6 215:7,8

220:1 227:15 237:16

238:22 241:18 243:11

243:18,20 257:10

258:6 259:11 261:11

261:13,17 290:19

306:5 309:1 313:18

327:17

lots 308:22

love 37:13 56:11 241:20

279:12 329:12

low-methoxyl 214:10

lower 114:1 132:17

141:9

lowered 141:15

luck 138:12

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lumped 19:6

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M

mac 186:18 187:11

magnesium 3:20 173:9

174:6,10 175:10

300:12,18

magnitude 61:1

main 19:4 127:2 231:7

269:12 272:5

maintain 64:15 148:11

148:17 150:19 324:13

major 304:5

majority 23:18 24:13

114:19 271:11 284:13

310:3 318:2 319:21

319:22 320:5,6,8

maker 205:14

making 31:19 83:6

179:6 202:14 204:18

215:11 232:17 242:3

253:5 254:2 258:11

263:16 270:19 281:13

281:14 286:15

malaria 164:14

male 95:5

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management 94:3

104:8,15,20 138:7,16

142:14

Manager 2:12

Managing 54:5

mandating 43:8,9

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244:6 253:4 257:11

257:14,15

manner 105:19

manual 304:7 317:9

324:14

manually 94:5

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manufacturers 179:4

211:21 213:10,18

manufacturing 132:18

170:16

manure 106:15 296:8

map 37:16 161:6

March 103:15 121:15

124:11 217:1 305:4

marine 4:3 219:16

221:1 222:13 234:3

296:10 300:11

mark 56:5 71:20 235:20

237:14

marker 238:18

market 75:16 78:8

183:11 192:5 193:19

195:16 198:13 214:7

218:11 310:5

marketed 202:8

Marketing 5:17

marketplace 188:7

Markets 198:10

Mars 10:5

Marty 83:16

mass 67:3

material 85:11 86:8

88:12 91:1 94:15

95:10 96:1 102:7,8

104:22 107:16 110:8

110:17 115:15 121:13

124:19 126:8 132:4

135:1 139:21 141:1

148:15 154:19 156:11

174:21 178:18 179:19

182:14,15 183:5

184:14,16,21 185:6

185:11 193:16 195:1

195:15 202:3 212:10

216:21 217:13 225:18

227:4 288:3 291:10

296:19

materials 2:16 3:6,19

4:3,7 84:15 87:21

88:3 89:12,14,15

101:1 121:17 138:6

139:12 142:17 159:6

159:13,15 162:16,19

163:2,6,8,11,13,18,22

164:12 165:1,4 166:7

168:18 169:3,6,9

170:11 172:8,9

173:14 184:21 185:9

188:4 191:18 212:18

219:16 221:19 225:7

228:17 229:3,4,5

230:16 235:8 247:3

250:15 267:12 296:2

296:10 300:11,13

303:15 307:15

matter 8:22 9:22 123:20

228:19 253:10 254:6

266:9 268:3 290:20

330:18

matters 10:1 71:12,12

mature 109:22

maximum 88:6 162:22

mean 8:13 13:18,20

15:4 17:12 20:18 21:1

21:20 30:8 37:15

56:15 59:16 62:12

66:22 75:19 106:18

121:2 186:19 197:21

218:9 223:7 231:14

231:15,19 237:22

238:13 241:8 246:8

250:1,3,5 255:15

258:20,21 261:17

262:8 263:11 264:8

264:16,18 267:2

272:10 276:2 278:19

280:3 294:6,8 316:13

321:10

meaning 101:14 316:15

means 208:11 284:21

meant 274:14

measures 16:16

meat 76:5 183:15,17

184:6 192:12 194:4,9

194:16,20 198:1

meat-based 213:21

meat-slaughtering

168:15

meat-withdrawal 100:9

mechanical 142:15

medical 84:21 136:8

medicine 100:20

101:12

meet 53:18 169:11

258:9 310:15

meeting 1:5 22:18

53:22 88:13 177:3

239:15,19 248:7
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329:19,22 330:7,15

meetings 11:2 239:13

313:18 316:16 324:11

325:6,6

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member 4:14 69:20

191:6,8 305:16

313:13 317:17,18

319:14,19 324:10,12

325:4

members 56:17 115:5

124:1,2 180:12

225:19 227:13 307:7

310:3 313:6 317:15

317:21 325:9 330:1

memory 111:16 207:13

Mennonites 108:1

mental 59:15

mention 93:7 133:16

197:14 295:9

mentioned 8:16 32:12

66:17 71:15 93:15

133:18 137:3 173:15

205:12 209:8 229:14

234:1,19 240:3

258:13 292:1

mentioning 51:5

mentor 314:12,13

mentors 314:3

mentorship 316:1

message 176:21

met 1:8 40:21 257:19

258:5 274:20

metaphor 306:16

metaphors 306:10

methionine 235:4

method 183:1 225:8

243:14 244:17 251:18

257:6,13,13 258:10

266:18 272:9 281:12

283:1

methodologies 262:15

methods 4:9 208:8

225:9 243:8,9 244:6

244:11 248:21 250:10

251:15 258:5 262:5

265:17 266:1,2

269:10 271:11 273:22

274:13,17,21 281:19

303:21

methoxyl 212:3 214:10

215:16

Mexico 295:5

mic 297:10

Michelle 2:10 123:14

159:20 275:10 307:9

314:22 317:5 329:4

330:5,8

micro-level 200:9

microcrystalline 297:1

microorganisms 227:5

Midwest 31:17 52:18

309:3

mild 26:11

Miles 64:3

milk 62:11 91:5 94:10

96:15 100:11 111:11

118:1 178:22

milking 111:8

million 52:22 60:6,7

238:21

millions 198:18

mimic 8:19 12:5

mind 13:1 36:15,22

49:6 73:2 80:19

194:10 237:10 261:15

261:20 278:21 280:20

minds 75:10 288:21

mine 19:21 62:18 199:4

231:20

mined 132:14,20

mineral 303:10

minimal 44:12 129:10

minimizes 105:19

mining 150:9 152:21

Minnesota 85:19

minor 44:10 109:21

113:20 119:10 212:13

minute 75:19

minutes 123:10

mis-classified 217:14

mis-listed 177:4

missed 306:1 314:21

missing 123:18 126:22

130:16

mistakes 34:10 227:12

misunderstood 95:6

mite 131:6 134:2

mites 125:9 127:4

131:17 133:4,8,10,13

134:5,6,17

mitigate 73:18

mitigating 163:12

mitigation 16:15

mix 128:6

mixture 139:11

mixup 45:16

mochi 205:14

mochi-based 204:8

model 316:19

modification 243:16,17

252:14 272:8 291:3

modified 207:15 275:7

277:9

molds 163:12

molecular 253:7

molluscicide 296:6

MOM's 75:15

moment 5:6,12 254:21

306:6

money 200:14 310:8

monies 197:2

monitored 171:7

monitoring 19:15

325:13

mono 300:17

Montana 31:14 33:10

33:14

months 85:21 252:12

254:8 260:1 280:8

morass 220:20

morning 5:3,5,15 7:1

38:21 50:17 59:12

84:5 297:15

MORTENSEN 1:16 9:13

35:16 39:7 47:22

53:12 55:13 58:18

68:21 70:16 87:6 90:2

91:22 98:22 102:18

106:9 109:3 111:6,19

113:1 115:18 122:19

135:16 140:15 144:4

145:16 146:18 149:11

151:15 153:18 155:13

157:12 160:6 161:22

169:14 172:15 176:7

178:3 188:20 189:6

190:18 199:2 201:12

208:2 210:10 216:11

231:3,21 240:11

242:18 248:1,18

252:16 265:13 278:8

284:21 285:2 287:8

294:21 315:22 322:4

322:11

MOSA 143:11

MOSES 22:3

MOSSO 1:16 12:8 39:5

47:20 55:11 87:4

89:22 91:20 99:12

103:8 109:1 112:21

122:17 135:14 140:13

146:16 148:5 149:9

150:5 151:13 152:14

153:16 155:11 157:10

160:4 162:12 166:15

170:20 173:5 176:5

178:1 180:14 183:13

190:16 201:10 210:8

216:9 219:5 242:16

260:16 261:11 263:22

264:16 267:10 269:17

281:5,22 284:19

287:6 326:7

motions 224:19

mouthfeel 181:19 183:8

186:9,15

move 7:14 18:7 43:15

44:8 46:3 47:4 48:11

50:12 53:11 54:17,21

71:21 79:1 84:6

103:13 142:16 152:14

153:6 155:1 157:1

159:17 161:15 175:5

177:7 189:11 215:18

217:16 220:3 225:12

225:14 246:12 260:13

268:8 276:20 277:1

285:14 291:11 294:1

295:17 301:20 302:19

305:11 308:21 309:2

318:17 327:5,6

moved 21:4 174:18

218:4

movement 289:19

308:1

moves 270:3

moving 9:18 70:14

87:18 90:15 92:14

103:18 109:6 136:1

141:3 158:6 165:17

191:9 209:14 223:22

243:22 246:20 260:11

277:3 280:19 315:20

moxidectin 141:10

muddy 107:5

mulch 14:2,12,14 22:5

235:5 296:10,20

mulches 12:18 14:9

16:17

multiple 17:2

music 254:22 306:9,10

306:14

musical 321:21

muster 144:10

N

name 130:19 187:7,9

198:2 288:7 289:6

290:19 321:14,14

324:17

names 187:8 220:14

narrow 100:18

nasty 129:21 130:4

natamycin 296:5

national 1:3 2:11,12,13

2:15,16,19 4:5,6 5:18
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138:6 142:21 154:22

161:11 168:9 170:8

174:17 175:1 179:2

191:10 196:14 201:21

212:19 227:1 231:5

232:2,9 236:11,12,17

240:14,17,22 245:14

247:16 305:16 311:10

328:3,21

nationally 236:6

native 3:4 23:1 24:16

25:21 26:5,21 27:16

29:11 30:6,19 31:15

32:8 33:4 35:3 37:1

292:11

natural 12:5,6 28:16

29:10 97:12 104:13

107:10 132:20 142:17

148:5 150:6 168:10

168:17 169:9 170:21

311:21

naturals 168:7

nature 171:11

NatureServe 25:19

near 171:8 279:7

Nebraska 37:1

necessarily 11:14 33:4

119:11 168:8,14

182:12 184:7 261:22

264:4 265:1 273:7

275:19 280:18

necessary 101:11

183:10 187:17 211:20

319:19

necessity 125:17

126:13,17 182:14

need 9:7,14,16 15:16

16:1 25:20 26:9 31:18

34:17 36:21 53:10

64:15 65:1 69:6,8

74:5 81:20 82:19

95:14,19 97:7 98:2

107:5 112:2 138:19

139:5,17 159:15

166:2,5,12,22 167:13

167:20 168:15,22,22

169:1,3,5,8 195:15

196:4,12 197:2

205:13,17 206:13

215:7 231:3 234:22

241:10 245:8,10,14

246:20 249:2,17

254:21 255:8 257:17

266:20 270:19 271:4

271:9,12 279:1 280:9

283:18 288:18 310:14

321:5

needed 49:16 53:8

72:19 95:18 97:3

181:2 244:3 253:2

270:20 304:6

needing 250:2

needs 139:7 205:14

208:11 250:9 253:6

negative 23:19 44:12

77:9,19 78:1

negatives 86:12

neglected 209:6

neighbor's 21:17

never 29:22 37:2 131:5

131:21 253:14 261:18

308:11

never-ending 262:3

new 18:19 33:20 35:3

35:18 36:2 66:1 67:11

103:21 166:22 195:22

214:15 233:6,22

248:21 250:15 258:4

261:12,16 262:5

268:18,19 290:2,3

295:5 302:11 312:15

318:8 327:4 328:19

Newly 318:3

news 261:17

newspaper 18:8,16

19:5 296:19

newspapers 19:19,20

19:20

newsprint 21:13

nice 229:18 314:9

NIFA 232:9 239:13

night 5:11 6:2 58:6

nine 244:14 253:9

nitrogen 3:17 152:4

154:8,8,13,17 155:4

no- 55:6

no-vote 47:15 86:21

89:19 91:18

NOC 143:11

nodding 287:4

NODPA 96:13

nominate 320:21 321:1

323:3 325:21 326:2,7

326:16

nominated 317:17

321:9

nomination 323:6,6

nominations 317:14

319:6 320:18 322:21

324:15 325:17 326:15

nominee 319:20,21,22

320:4,6,13,15 326:21

nominees 320:7

non- 104:13 154:12

156:6

non-agricultural

147:17 217:15

non-amidated 4:2

210:22 214:13 215:15

non-compliance 15:7

non-contentious

148:14

non-fat 178:21

Non-GMO 4:10 208:5

261:14 303:18

non-organic 147:17

205:6 213:20

non-organically 191:11

non-regulatory 50:13

non-retail 41:20

non-substantive

253:12

non-synthetic 217:22

224:8,10,12,13,16,21

225:3

non-synthetics 150:1

152:9

noodles 202:6

Noonan's 35:17

NOP 32:22 42:3,4,9

43:8 44:1,9 52:14

59:1 65:17,18 68:15

70:22 77:5 100:5

136:16 144:8,10

230:4 243:10 245:21

256:5 278:19 289:17

312:2,4 329:3

NOP's 40:17

North 294:8 295:5

Northeast 36:1 94:18

NOSB 2:10 6:14 40:11

43:22 59:2 144:8

174:22 175:8 208:17

217:5 225:20 227:17

242:8 268:10 289:16

307:14,20,21 310:3

311:5,9 317:15,17,18

318:3,5,7 325:6,6,9

325:10

notation 254:2

note 66:11 86:2 120:15

123:11 131:9 133:15

134:12 166:19 177:2

188:12 189:19 319:9

noted 42:8 65:16 85:11

114:9 150:15 232:14

233:15

notice 66:4 186:12

189:13 212:14

noticed 126:21

notices 15:8

noting 246:13

NOVEMBER 1:7

nowadays 19:18

NRC 236:17

NRCS 28:20 37:11

nuance 213:17

nuances 15:22

nucleus 257:11,14,16

number 13:13 42:21

57:17 59:3 71:10

114:3,17 214:9

217:13 229:21 248:21

288:10 294:7 320:1

numbs 109:18 113:18

numerous 85:10 94:16

142:5 143:11 145:4

nutrient 17:18

nutritional 185:21

O

OAKLEY 1:17 11:12

20:3 24:22 25:8 32:1

38:22 45:19 46:8 48:7

55:20 79:3 87:13 90:9

92:7 99:7 103:3

108:18 111:21 112:16

120:7 122:12 126:6

126:19 131:21 135:9

140:8 144:7 146:11

149:4 151:22 154:3

155:20 157:19 160:13

162:7 166:9 172:22

175:22 177:18 182:5

184:11 190:11 201:5

206:17 210:3 214:1

216:4 221:8 223:2

229:8 231:11 233:4

233:21 237:3,6,13

238:8,11 239:10,16

240:10 242:4 243:3

247:10 248:13 253:18

254:13 260:6 265:6

272:20 278:6 279:5

284:2 285:9 287:15

292:18 295:8 313:22

318:20 321:3,6 323:1

obligatory 308:19

obscure 253:3

observing 29:3

obstacles 168:21

obtaining 212:10 237:2

obtains 320:4,6

obviously 257:19

270:13

occupation 165:9

Occupational 164:20

occupationally- 165:9

occur 208:19 304:22
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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320:3

occurred 27:4

occurrence 95:17,18

occurrences 95:13

occurring 64:19 262:10

270:11

occurs 95:4

octanoate 296:21

303:10

odd 264:18

OEFFA 143:12

OFARM 74:1

off-label 101:5,7

offer 45:1 72:21 205:11

offered 255:3 271:6

offering 43:3 260:18

office 319:4,6 320:15

officer 4:16 317:4,9,11

317:16,22 319:13,18

322:20

officers 318:1,4,7,8

319:10,17 325:10

327:4 330:11,14

official 2:20 325:12

officially 110:22 325:15

329:19

OFPA 49:19

oftentimes 194:2

Ohio 294:6,13 295:1

OID 206:2

OIG 44:2 68:9

oil 86:4 107:13 150:7,16

293:18,20 294:9

295:13 303:10

oil-free 154:14

oils 17:21 148:2 168:11

Oklahoma 132:7 295:9

Omni 1:9

on- 240:15

on-farm 170:17 181:20

on-site 29:17

once 79:10 92:22 139:3

143:22 147:6 291:17

317:20

oncoming 330:13

one-page 230:10

one-year 318:2

ones 81:17 143:14

234:22 248:12 271:18

276:22 277:2 323:14

ongoing 65:14 191:21

online 31:6 37:14 43:11

onset 109:17 113:17

open 7:11 38:9 45:1

58:22 59:6 95:8 96:8

105:7 115:10 125:22

126:2,5 138:1 144:2

146:5 148:6 150:9

183:6 185:6 202:22

207:4,9 237:9 245:18

267:17 277:17 289:4

294:2 305:7 319:6

320:17 325:13

opening 192:14

opens 185:8

operating 66:14

operation 16:11 40:20

40:21 67:19 81:8

95:12

operations 6:9 32:18

39:18 40:6 41:15

43:21 46:18,20 49:17

50:9 55:3 67:1 71:8

74:11 80:12 104:17

126:1 164:1 205:10

operator 35:10

operators 35:1,8

142:20

opinion 8:22 97:2

240:20 248:1 254:7

266:3 278:10 279:9

opportunities 72:21

196:4 234:8

opportunity 220:7

277:1 305:8

opposed 250:13

opposite 20:15

opposition 110:9

150:14 264:19 269:18

option 13:15 134:17

163:12 183:20 191:6

283:12

options 35:5 127:20

137:9,13 163:18

185:12

oral 99:22 125:22 212:9

220:2

orchards 14:20

orchestra 306:16

order 5:4 64:14 99:22

100:6 141:18 146:4

167:8 195:18 196:4

196:13 229:1,2

266:10 284:12 286:13

291:18 318:17

OREI 238:4

organic-compliant

114:16

organically 200:8

organically- 115:12

organically-available

192:11

organics 79:5 116:19

185:16 237:19

organisms 275:7

organization 22:2

125:21 270:13 312:15

organizations 96:12,14

98:3 202:16 230:9

organized 312:8

organophosphates

164:15

original 121:12,18

158:12 221:16 271:18

275:18 310:12

originally 49:6 120:2

251:1

originates 298:21

OSPs 203:4

OTA 43:4 74:2,2 202:17

others' 138:1

outcome 69:9 70:18

265:2

outcomes 69:11 70:9

70:10

outdated 252:3

outdoor 133:6

outdoors 308:9 311:20

outgoing 4:14 318:7

319:14,19 330:10

outline 225:8

outpatient 117:18

outraged 81:3

outside 129:9 171:18

203:21 308:14

outsized 307:19

outweighs 280:7

over-consume 184:2

overall 107:15 126:22

227:18 272:9

overcome 26:14

overlap 315:14

overnight 281:10

overruled 312:12

overseas 53:19 213:3

oversee 67:1

oversight 40:12 223:19

overstate 60:17

oxcalic 303:4

oxygen 300:16

oxytocin 3:8 92:15,18

93:1 95:1,3,10,17

98:12 103:13

P

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

5:1

p.m 228:20,21 330:19

packaged 41:9,19

packaging 41:18

154:17 161:6

packed 41:17

packets 187:14

packing 171:16

page 19:21 46:16 65:19

67:17 273:20

pails 88:17

pain 81:20 82:3

pair 123:12

paired 101:20

palm 211:5

panel 57:17 63:5 80:11

152:11 154:14 185:22

256:18

panels 198:21 240:22

241:13

paper 20:19 22:5

326:22

papers 21:18

paperwork 71:19

paragraph 84:20 88:2

90:18 92:17 103:21

103:21 109:9 113:8

158:6,7 161:1 162:18

paramount 77:11

parasite 129:17

parasites 131:16

parasiticide 103:22

108:7 125:4 141:4,14

142:22

parasiticides 3:13

141:22 142:2,10

145:9,19

pardon 59:14

parentheses 163:2

parsing 193:5

part 15:10 23:21 43:8

46:21 51:1 68:21

100:2,4 110:1 121:15

167:22 188:1 196:19

207:5 255:21 264:15

270:1 273:16 275:11

278:21 301:16 306:8

PARTICIPANT 285:1

288:15 290:9 302:5,8

322:10 323:22

participates 324:11

325:5

participation 329:22

particle 272:11

particular 60:22 78:20

130:19

particularly 67:7

229:11 306:6

partners 91:8

partnerships 28:22

parts 42:1 256:14

328:20

parturition 92:18

pass 23:4 44:18 249:6

253:15 263:14 282:15

282:16 326:4,9
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Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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passed 6:3 77:5 154:20

208:17 226:14 251:1

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274:12,14 281:10

282:18 318:13

passes 39:15 48:9 56:1

99:14 123:7 135:22

147:3 210:17 219:14

287:21

pasta 202:9

paste 206:20

pasture 126:1,2 133:5

308:22

pastured 76:5 133:2

pastures 133:8

path 222:20

pathogen 168:16

pathogens 89:3 159:2

paths 223:3

PATTILLO 2:16

Paul 2:14 231:16,17

232:1 233:11 239:16

256:5 262:6 282:3

289:20 292:22 327:12

Paul's 231:14

pause 64:11

pay 63:3 80:20 238:1

261:22

paying 81:1 218:3

237:17 302:16 307:10

payment 52:22

PCO 143:12

peanut 196:9

pectin 4:2 192:19,20

210:19,22 211:4,7,18

213:2 214:3,10,17

215:2,8,21

peelings 214:4

peels 215:8

peer 236:1 241:10,16

peeves 196:9

pending 126:16

Penn 10:4

Pennsylvania 294:22

316:6

people 7:12 13:2,14

21:13,15 24:8 26:12

28:4 31:11 37:7 56:10

61:9,12,13 81:6,21

82:3 97:4,15 101:14

115:21 118:6 127:10

127:16 130:20 133:22

138:12 167:11 171:4

181:3 183:21 184:18

185:16 187:9 203:14

206:7 208:9 230:7,21

241:5 243:15 244:22

247:18 249:5 261:13

271:16 280:9 290:11

297:5 314:4 321:7

328:9

people's 280:14 288:20

pepper 300:3

perceive 53:20

percent 31:2,5 59:18,19

60:2,3 72:14,17

105:15 199:9,10

225:9 238:14,15

239:4 309:22

percentage 32:18

309:16

perennial 15:3,11

perfect 252:12 321:5

perform 115:14 236:12

performing 119:10

period 23:12 26:7 60:14

100:9,12 109:11

110:3,21 113:10

114:2 290:14

perishable 193:7

permanent 15:6

peroxyhydrate 296:18

person 57:7,7 70:1 79:9

112:3 133:2 240:17

249:21

personal 52:15,19

184:2 206:19

personally 171:22

181:3 183:18 195:2

199:13 263:14 295:10

perspective 10:18 11:9

51:22 75:12 105:12

132:4 166:18 167:14

170:10 171:7 194:18

220:5 259:14 264:17

264:21 265:3 314:17

perspectives 280:15

pest 61:4,5 161:8

pesticide 125:8 236:10

pesticides 58:10

126:11 164:6,7

165:21 209:10 214:5

pet 129:2 196:9

petition 107:8 124:10

124:10,13 125:2

128:9 135:2 136:3,6

136:11,16 140:1,4

191:7 225:20 299:18

301:13 307:15

petitioned 3:11,12

135:3 136:22 137:8

198:13 296:2 301:11

petitioner 195:20 300:6

petitions 167:1 299:18

300:4 302:12 303:1

petroleum 133:17

pH 156:20

Ph.D 2:12,14,18

phenomenal 305:20

329:6

phone 59:4 316:2,16

phosphate 179:16

180:5 182:7,21

phosphates 3:21 178:8

178:11,16 180:18,22

188:15 190:3

phosphoric 178:19

300:18 303:9

phrase 141:16

physical 85:4

pick 50:7 129:2 321:15

picking 134:3

picture 19:21

pictures 11:2 308:15

pie 308:6,6

piece 236:21 290:10

308:5

pieces 326:21

Pingree 238:19

pink 137:1,11,14 138:4

138:17 319:3 326:21

pipelines 295:14

pit 106:15

place 23:9 32:11,14

69:10 76:1,2 77:10

97:9 141:8 143:1

237:8 264:7 271:2

329:5

placement 196:13

places 46:14 64:2 142:6

168:17

plan 29:19 31:1,3 32:15

34:1,6,6,22 35:10

40:13 74:6 81:3

174:19 198:6 247:8

312:3

planet 24:2

planned 40:16

planning 45:10

plans 127:10 309:2

plant 24:4 125:6,7

148:1 168:15 181:20

196:21 208:3 221:11

222:16

plant's 17:11

plant-based 19:1

plants 11:4 132:16

169:17 182:22

plaque 305:6,13

plastic 296:19

play 57:1 208:5 233:20

321:21 322:5

played 322:10

player 306:7,7

players 19:9,10 72:2

plays 36:16 327:21

please 77:18 226:10

321:13 324:17

pleased 312:7

plowed 37:2

plucking 243:19

plurality 320:9

point 11:21 20:3 29:7

30:10 32:22 46:13,16

49:22 57:21 59:10

69:15 74:7 77:18 78:3

101:19 120:14 134:2

143:17 146:4 167:7

172:2 183:3 185:15

188:20,21 191:3

199:19 204:19 207:3

212:13 213:18 221:14

221:18 252:16 260:19

266:14 268:6,20

270:8,15 271:18

272:5 273:3 277:22

310:10

pointed 27:9 100:18

points 250:2,4

policies 312:14 323:20

324:13

policy 239:1 256:5

304:4 312:11 317:8

324:12

Polyoxin 296:4

ponder 260:16

ponds 37:13

Pooler 54:9

population 261:21

populations 203:11,21

porches 76:16

port 61:5,11 63:6

portable 187:13

portion 5:8 282:2

291:10

portions 43:21 73:20

73:21

ports 43:10

posed 212:1

position 281:15 314:1

317:16,22 320:18

positions 317:10,11

318:4

positive 77:21 234:13

possibility 18:9 25:4

292:20

possible 8:20 223:3,18

224:3 282:4

possibly 233:1 261:2

post 66:10 67:22 92:18

219:21

post-birthing 94:4
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

352

post-parturition 93:4

posted 65:22 66:2,5,7

219:19

potassium 3:20 4:3

176:10,14,18 177:9

189:14 217:9 218:16

296:20 297:2 300:16

300:19

potential 209:9 218:10

234:11

potentially 81:9 166:1

182:7 184:20 297:6

poultry 53:17 126:1,3

131:17 133:2 134:12

134:13,16

pounds 198:18

powder 125:12 130:18

194:15 235:8

powders 148:8

practical 35:11 172:4

221:16,22

practice 14:19 225:2

practices 27:4 37:5,8

104:20 126:12

prairie 37:1

pre-grated 187:22

precautionary 182:9

precipitated 141:11

prefer 85:20 233:9

preferable 258:16

preference 266:15

preferred 88:21 168:18

preliminary 56:3

premium 80:20

prepare 319:7

prepared 124:17 272:4

preparing 232:20

preps 211:21

prescriptive 277:16

presence 212:16

316:13

present 1:11 2:9 74:21

115:13 152:19 188:5

239:20 278:14

presentation 59:12

304:13 305:6,13

presented 282:6,10

294:6 305:14

presenting 77:16

207:11

preserves 211:10

presiding 1:10

pressure 213:9

pretty 21:1 26:11 36:19

88:14 129:10 134:6

137:21 148:14 165:5

171:3 177:1 217:19

217:21 235:3 244:21

257:4,20 263:12

295:15

prevent 104:9 138:20

139:1 143:2 178:19

182:22 183:7

preventative 131:4,6

preventing 16:16

142:16 192:4

preview 74:8

previous 136:10,18

189:15 230:6 244:12

273:13 279:15 288:22

293:9

previously 124:19

135:1 136:10,17

139:22 276:22

price 44:18

prices 53:1

primarily 182:16 202:4

204:9 211:20 221:13

primary 28:13 134:12

202:19 211:15 324:9

325:3

principle 182:9 185:2

principles 20:9 274:14

prior 32:11 121:17

150:12 269:19

priorities 4:9 229:7,20

230:22 233:22 234:21

235:2 242:9 284:4

priority 65:15 107:10

233:6,14

private 198:8

probably 11:17 19:13

21:2 24:9 25:20 28:12

29:18 32:2,16 33:20

37:5 74:8,19 80:12

82:9 97:16 106:14

116:6 143:7 144:16

165:13 184:15 199:16

222:2 223:5 231:22

233:2 238:2 250:11

254:6 261:13 266:14

277:21 303:5 306:5

314:3 316:2 319:11

problem 34:9 53:5

59:18,20 60:3,3,4,15

60:16,19 61:3,15 70:4

74:16,17 76:14 81:22

106:20 139:5,7

142:16 143:1,3

problematic 19:1

problems 94:4 129:5

198:9

procaine 3:10 113:6,9

113:16 114:4,10,11

114:17 116:20,21

117:1 119:3,3,8,12,20

121:15 122:1

procedural 284:11

procedure 304:8

procedures 64:10 65:1

85:2,22 236:14 317:8

317:9 323:21 324:14

proceed 146:8 189:22

227:14,16 266:22

268:15,22 293:7

process 64:22 69:3,15

70:18 76:7 101:1,21

110:2 132:18 165:14

167:22 197:17 208:1

208:21 224:6 226:12

228:5 236:1 241:2,19

245:20 247:3 250:17

264:17,20 265:3

268:11 269:18 271:3

274:22 282:1 307:14

310:21 317:14 320:4

328:7

processed 41:19 58:7

147:19 182:1,16

183:19 184:21 187:15

191:13,14

processers 83:3

processes 203:16

processing 142:13

148:1 152:20 158:19

158:20 161:8 165:8

181:20 182:22 187:20

195:14 196:21 197:3

197:4,8 198:12

processors 171:20

produce 49:12,13 51:6

51:10 81:6 161:9

185:9 212:11

produced 61:13 62:9

152:21 191:11 208:8

213:7 244:17 293:17

309:18

producer 118:2 119:2,3

130:4 208:11

producers 91:2 94:2,19

95:8 97:11,22 104:21

117:9 120:12 125:21

128:2,13,20 131:3,13

137:9 138:3 141:20

143:15 185:8 211:19

producing 128:17

204:3

product 41:2,6,9,14,22

57:2 58:6 63:13 75:17

76:3,9 80:13,15 85:15

96:20 128:14 131:2,8

132:20 133:17 137:8

152:20 179:7 181:2

181:15 182:3,11

195:16 203:15 205:6

206:6 208:6 212:12

217:17 218:9 245:5

production 3:2,4,13 6:4

6:7,21 7:4,22 8:5 9:11

9:21 13:7,18 14:4,5

15:18 16:13 17:7 23:2

23:10,14 84:17 85:12

86:6 88:17 95:11 97:8

98:14 118:7,11

119:17 122:2 125:3,5

128:16 141:5 142:6

145:20 169:17 174:11

179:5 209:16 213:2

213:13 225:8,9 234:4

244:8 309:22 310:1

products 41:16,17

82:11 104:14 114:12

114:18 120:10 138:21

138:22 139:4,10

147:19 152:17 165:11

183:10,11 184:19

185:7 187:1,2,5 188:2

188:8 191:12,13

194:6 198:1 199:15

202:13,22 203:13

204:3,6 211:10

213:21,21 214:16,21

221:1,2 234:4 296:22

310:5

profession 198:17

professional 327:19

profile 173:16

profound 53:14 89:1

program 2:11,13,15,17

2:19 5:12,18 25:2

37:11 40:1,12 42:6

45:15 49:20 50:15,18

52:3 54:5 64:7,12

65:7,20 79:21 83:10

110:22 124:11 136:5

143:20 189:4 193:18

208:16 217:21 226:16

226:18 227:8,9,18,19

227:21 228:6 231:7

232:2,3 240:14,17

241:1 245:14 250:7

256:3 260:2 267:17

268:6,13 269:21

270:2,19 271:6

276:11 292:2 294:6

298:13,13,14,22

301:14,20,22 302:2

305:7 306:2 310:8

311:10 327:9 328:1

330:3

Program's 249:10

255:19
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

353

programs 64:22 231:8

236:5 328:3

progress 254:14 260:1

prohibit 6:3

prohibited 95:20

prohibition 97:5

projected 52:22

projects 238:4 300:9

prolapsed 95:13,16

promised 311:11

promote 192:10

prompt 219:21

pronounce 299:14

314:15

proper 106:11

properly 104:20 251:14

properties 148:6 181:2

181:13

property 180:22

proposal 3:3,11 4:2,8

6:3 22:22 27:1 34:20

36:12 38:13 39:17

40:10 46:3 55:2,6

56:1 77:5 110:21

114:1 137:15 145:18

177:4 189:4 217:9,16

218:21 221:16 227:7

227:18 228:8 230:6

241:14 242:8,11

243:6 244:9,19 254:3

259:14 266:13 267:12

273:13 274:12 286:2

286:9 288:19,20

290:15 293:5 298:20

302:3

proposals 241:9 242:3

247:6 291:13

proposals/Final 4:11

proposed 43:6 49:18

49:22 66:3 226:12,20

301:9 311:17

prospectively 277:5

prosper 291:8

protect 24:5 159:2

163:19 294:17

protecting 23:22 36:13

37:7

Protection 43:7

protein 95:3 179:6

proteins 150:8

protocols 94:3

prove 208:12

proven 309:7

provide 36:9 173:17,22

181:1 188:7 223:18

231:16 252:19,20

276:5

provided 212:15 253:2

provides 104:21

providing 261:1 325:14

327:22

prudent 227:14 319:12

prunings 17:8

public 7:6 8:12 12:10

23:17 25:8 26:17,18

27:6 42:8,13,16 43:13

64:9 65:4 86:2 93:14

116:10 118:14 124:3

126:7 136:16 137:19

144:21 148:13 152:22

153:2 156:16,17

158:22 161:10 163:10

164:9,12 174:15,17

176:21 177:3 179:3,4

179:8 180:17 191:6,8

192:19 197:19 207:6

211:11 217:18 218:7

220:16 222:6,22

225:19 226:22 228:5

229:12 234:1 244:22

250:5 254:3 255:6,7

257:8,21 261:5 264:1

264:6,13,21 269:9,12

269:19 289:1 294:7

294:12 301:8 312:10

315:16 322:14 327:17

327:20,21 328:5,6

329:21

publicly 311:8

published 185:21

255:22

pull 15:5 119:9 237:21

317:5 321:9 323:15

pulled 9:2 40:15 264:12

273:14

pulling 132:19 291:16

pure 128:5

purely 133:20

purist 181:17

purity 288:5 289:5,8

290:19

purposes 186:9

pursue 183:21

pursuing 250:12

purview 186:1

put 23:9 28:2 29:22

37:12 43:17 45:4 56:4

76:6 77:10,19,22

93:17 106:15 110:22

121:11 123:13 137:20

137:22 141:7 143:21

144:1 199:22 200:14

217:20 230:6 238:19

243:10 245:14,22

247:6 249:19 250:5,7

252:11 254:3,10

277:10 279:6 282:22

286:19 288:21 298:3

302:11

puts 258:9

putting 16:17 74:5

131:3 133:7 145:9

218:8 230:18 254:18

puzzle 51:1 130:7

Q

qualifications 292:7

qualified 198:21

qualifies 326:13

quality 10:1,6,11 19:11

quantify 78:13

quantitative 78:6,6,9,11

78:16

quantity 182:7 184:20

queries 203:6

question 12:14 13:11

20:4,8 56:21 57:3

76:20,21 105:8

115:19 117:6 119:2

126:19 148:11 180:7

180:15 182:17 189:9

191:5 193:17 204:11

204:20 206:11 208:15

212:4 233:11 245:20

253:20 254:2 255:21

282:12,20 284:1

286:12 292:22 323:8

323:13 325:2

questioned 126:11,12

126:13

questioning 179:9

questions 8:2,9 30:22

45:8 75:9 76:13 80:10

114:4 156:22 179:22

195:19 196:12 207:7

212:1 226:2,21

227:15 228:13 232:12

235:17 292:16 301:4

303:12,13,22 304:11

314:15 316:5

quick 6:2 16:16 36:19

44:22 121:11 208:16

216:19 329:20

quickly 50:2 66:19

154:12 250:15 270:1

270:6,18 273:4 284:2

quite 22:4 23:5 31:18

35:20 46:16,22 49:4

52:6 73:12 130:13

199:13 223:11 244:12

257:9 265:16 280:9

299:11 302:14 306:12

307:15 313:16

quitters 317:20

quote 62:6

R

raise 45:9 70:21 194:3

256:16

raised 49:15 59:3 101:4

114:4 189:18 196:20

raises 20:4 75:9

raising 50:15 197:6

270:14

Ramaswamy 240:19

ran 227:11

ranchers 194:3

random 57:14

range 27:22 28:5 79:7

ranging 308:14

rapid 67:12 109:17

113:16

rapidly 261:20 269:21

277:12,17 281:8

309:16

rare 95:16,18

rates 168:16

raw 185:9 212:10

re- 189:13 300:11

re-classify 218:16

re-look 73:17

re-read 190:1

re-scoped 292:6

reach 29:7 203:11,21

247:15

reached 24:8 66:5

231:10

reaching 205:20

reaction 57:14

read 13:3 20:11 35:10

94:18 143:6,14 152:7

171:7 296:14 299:20

300:14 304:15 325:2

readers 230:2

readily 86:4 170:11

reading 8:12 188:6

252:20

ready 38:6 54:18 86:14

89:10 91:13 98:9

102:11 108:4 112:4

121:8 134:20 139:19

172:6 188:13 218:13

242:6 266:6 283:13

285:16 288:19

real 40:2 76:14 121:11

137:17 196:12 208:16

216:19 302:16 308:8

310:17 311:13,16,20

315:17 316:14

reality 67:11

realize 195:21 294:18

realm 80:14
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

354

reason 74:17 79:14

120:2 122:4 164:13

164:14 167:20 279:1

286:21 288:13,17

reasons 79:11 167:9

277:14 290:18

recall 227:5

receive 42:6 209:7

220:1 257:8 319:20

received 26:18 27:7

39:22 40:11 42:16

101:10 105:2 114:5

124:11 148:10,12

150:10,15 152:22

153:1 161:10 163:11

163:20 174:16 202:18

215:12 224:6,12,16

227:8,15 261:7

301:12 303:4

receives 319:22

receiving 251:1

recess 83:15,20 228:18

recipe 214:19

reclassification 4:3

reclassify 177:5

Recognition 4:14

recognize 42:1 252:2

290:11

recognizes 137:5

recommend 24:20

recommendation 94:19

95:1 217:3,6

recommendations

105:4 208:18 236:21

260:4 275:11

recommended 114:8

121:16 274:17

recommending 25:4

recommends 104:22

record 123:21 175:7

206:22 207:6 228:20

263:10 288:10,15,17

294:15 325:8,12

330:19

records 325:6

recovering 26:6

recuse 219:13

recycle 20:19,21

recycled 296:19

recycling 20:20 21:14

red 10:20 29:22 318:14

redefining 243:13

reduced 214:18

refer 38:13,17 102:2

145:18 146:1 267:12

284:8,14 292:11

298:15 323:16

reference 117:16 220:5

referenced 289:16

referencing 214:15

288:22

referred 24:14 147:4

referring 245:3

reflect 229:12

reflected 116:2 240:2

reflecting 214:12

regard 50:6 163:16

regarding 39:17 101:5

regardless 197:16

regards 180:14 183:13

regenerate 222:11

regenerative 311:18

Region 53:14 66:14

70:2

regional 35:21 36:7,15

36:21 107:4 294:13

regions 30:18,19 31:13

197:4 202:5

regression 20:7

regret 260:20 281:17

regular 19:19

regulated 185:22

regulating 27:10

regulation 23:16 40:3

42:2,7 43:22 118:4

142:6 198:8 236:10

regulations 49:21 62:2

100:3 119:14

regulations.gov 206:21

regulator 156:14

regulatory 39:21 42:19

43:9 50:13 194:11

197:2

reiterate 134:15 159:14

251:22

reiteration 229:9

reject 47:15 55:7 140:4

218:21 242:12 286:10

related 17:6 50:5 51:5

65:2 138:8 173:14

227:12

relates 243:15

relating 142:1

relationship 64:7

relatively 6:19

relegated 308:14

relevance 241:15

relevancy 241:17

relevant 12:19 51:11,12

295:4 317:19

relist 86:7,10 150:14,15

152:22 153:2

relisted 85:15 115:7

relisting 101:3 105:3

110:8 176:22 192:4

215:4 217:12

rely 184:16 305:22

remain 63:16 217:4

244:7 304:22 320:11

remained 41:18

remaining 154:22 320:3

remains 6:9

remark 173:12

remarks 4:18 327:7,8

327:10,14 328:9

remember 26:22 33:9

80:10 111:18 215:11

226:13 250:22 274:10

301:12

remembered 279:5

remembers 273:4

remind 208:9 216:20

243:11 313:17

reminded 34:3

reminds 306:9

remiss 295:8 329:2

330:4

removal 120:9 141:11

148:12 214:2

remove 14:13 39:21

86:17,20,21 89:13,18

89:19 91:10,15,17,18

93:2 95:1 96:2,5

98:12,18 101:16

102:8,9,13,15,16

103:14 108:6,10,10

112:6,8,8 115:15

120:8 121:3,22 122:6

122:7 148:8,17,21

149:1,2 150:8,18

151:5,7 153:3,8,10,11

155:4,6,6 157:3,5,6

159:21 160:1,2

161:17,19 172:8,12

172:13 175:10,13,13

177:9,11 188:15,17

188:18 190:2,4

200:19,21,21 203:18

203:19 204:21 205:4

205:5 209:14,19,20

215:21 216:1

removed 14:9 88:22

94:17 95:19 198:14

229:10

removes 205:6

removing 96:12,19

97:10 116:15

renamed 309:21

renew 199:16

renewal 94:14

renewed 93:22

reorganization 121:16

217:3 301:16

repeat 215:11 297:15

318:20

repeated 95:13 320:4

repeatedly 233:15

repellant 125:9

replace 46:5

replacement 321:21

report 44:2 85:6 92:20

100:14 104:3,12

124:17 136:14,15

137:12 152:11 156:8

158:12,14 161:3

163:5 174:8 176:15

178:13 179:13 211:1

220:9

reporter 308:17 309:11

reporting 66:16 68:5

reports 29:3 136:11

represent 94:21 96:14

164:10 312:10

representation 233:9

233:13

representatives 311:8

represents 195:7

311:16

reproductive 165:2

request 12:10 27:15

40:11,17 50:8 66:8

74:9 124:18 136:13

198:16,20 289:16

292:2 298:3

requested 66:12 189:4

243:10

requesting 174:18

requests 124:14 136:6

298:11

require 184:13 254:15

required 41:7 126:1

278:3

requirement 111:17

208:5 321:20

requirements 14:3

40:21 41:21 80:22

111:15

requires 41:9 66:19

100:5 109:10 113:9

197:15 246:10,11

320:9

research 4:9 105:4

106:6 107:10 204:19

229:7,13 230:9 233:6

233:9,13,14,22

234:14,15,18,22

235:6 236:11,19

237:18 238:16,21

239:4,5 240:18 241:8

242:2,9 247:18 284:4

researched 266:3 269:5

researchers 240:4
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

355

researching 30:17

reservations 11:16

126:9

residual 88:5,6 162:21

162:22

residues 111:10

resistance 129:18,20

resolve 306:12

resolved 15:11 16:1

69:18 298:20

resort 142:18

resources 28:16 29:10

37:15 59:22 193:19

236:18 237:2

respect 199:6 229:14

270:7 278:9

respiratory 165:22

respond 63:21 70:15

232:6 250:2 270:6

277:17

response 57:14,22

67:12 72:12 124:17

260:9

responsibilities 318:6

327:19

responsibility 34:13

80:11 163:15 325:11

responsible 69:4

rest 9:4

restart 169:19

restrict 49:20

restricts 99:21

result 129:6 309:10

resulted 73:4

resulting 306:14

results 319:16

resumed 123:21 228:20

retail- 41:21

retail-labeled 41:16

retailer 75:12,16 76:12

retailers 62:20

retain 86:22 89:19

91:10,18 98:19

102:16 108:11 112:9

118:9 122:7 149:2

151:8 153:4,11 155:7

157:6 160:3 161:19

172:13 175:14 177:11

179:2 188:18 190:5

195:1 200:22 204:22

209:21 216:1

retaining 161:11 174:16

211:12 286:5

retains 325:11

retired 64:3

retrospectively 277:4

return 124:2

reveal 58:12

revealed 25:9 220:16

reverse 100:7,19

review 3:5,15 6:2 18:21

25:1 27:8 29:17 31:5

34:2 89:6 93:7,7

101:21 126:22 147:16

148:2 150:11 154:21

159:5,15 164:3

165:14 166:3,5,21

167:21,22 168:6

170:4,15 189:15

208:21 210:21 225:1

225:6 226:13,16

227:4 228:4,7 236:1,4

236:13,18 240:3

250:17 251:17 265:17

268:10 276:12,15

301:15 302:7 307:14

317:8

reviewed 18:22 100:21

106:10 109:22 111:13

113:21 121:17 150:13

154:19 161:12 163:21

169:12 174:22 179:11

179:12 196:10 264:9

reviewers 241:10

reviewing 10:14 18:16

100:22 156:11

reviews 136:18 195:17

225:7,10 226:20,21

227:2,21 241:16,17

307:16

revise 75:1

revised 246:1

revising 286:4

revisions 304:6

revisiting 249:4

revocation 65:21 71:11

revocations 66:1 68:1

revoked 67:19

revote 320:2,6,7,9

rewarding 328:14,17

rice 1:17 22:17,20 25:6

26:19 28:8 31:8,22

33:8 34:12 35:15

36:17 38:3 39:11,16

46:6,9 48:4,10 52:11

54:3,18,22 55:17 56:2

56:19 57:8 58:16

61:21 63:17 72:8 75:5

77:3 79:2,16 83:7

87:10 90:6 92:4 99:4

102:22 108:15 112:13

117:6 122:10 135:6

140:19 146:22 149:15

151:19 155:17 157:16

162:4 172:19 175:19

177:15 190:8 201:2

202:2,9 203:5 205:9

206:4 207:19 209:6

210:14 216:15 219:9

219:18 221:6 222:17

223:16 242:22 251:20

255:1 285:6 287:12

291:22 293:13,20

294:20 295:2,6,12

305:3 326:10,13

Richardson 111:14

rid 131:17 133:12

264:19

rigorous 61:11 169:22

248:10 250:16,17

307:15

rinse 158:19

risk 57:13 89:4 179:17

236:13

risks 164:18

road 246:5

roadmap 68:10 142:19

Robert's 284:12

robust 23:17 93:20

235:14

role 56:22 80:16 82:3

83:4 231:15 233:20

311:10 314:19 316:19

316:19 327:21

roles 318:9

rolled 14:4

room 48:17 144:18

271:10

rotate 229:22

rotation 129:19

round 156:17 202:12

routinely 89:2 191:19

rub 128:22 129:3

rubbing 125:12 128:9

Ruihong 290:3

rule 14:7 24:16 50:1

142:13 308:18

rulemaking 25:5 78:4

78:19 111:1 144:1

208:20 250:13,18

rules 61:17 169:4

214:15 284:12 312:22

run 10:8 33:12,15 59:15

291:17 295:22 317:13

running 199:9 232:3

267:15 319:10,17

321:8

runoff 16:20

S

sad 141:2

safe 88:7 163:1 167:8,9

safety 163:14,16 164:1

164:8 166:18 171:6

171:11

salad 187:14,16

sale 41:15 212:12

sales 81:9 238:14 239:3

308:3

salt 296:4

Sam 240:6

sanitation 159:10

sanitize 163:9 168:22

169:5

sanitizer 84:21 88:15

88:22 137:7

sanitizers 89:6 137:4

159:6 164:3 165:19

166:22 167:1 170:5,6

304:2

sanitizers' 165:15

sanitizing 88:3,17

158:10 162:20 169:7

satisfied 180:3

satisfy 181:14

sausage 192:11

save 326:21 328:10

saw 11:1,6 23:19 40:8

42:8 82:7 117:7

180:17 181:18 187:4

276:8 310:19

saying 54:2 82:1 115:7

118:15 159:5 163:21

168:14 184:12 204:13

215:15 218:7 253:12

256:17 257:22 258:3

264:1 265:12 269:13

280:8 290:1 317:20

says 14:8 23:14 83:15

119:8 273:16 277:9

305:14 314:8

scale 170:17 206:18

309:20

scaring 326:12

scenes 308:10 329:5

schedule 318:1

science 270:17 278:4

Sciences 236:12,17

scientific 283:17

scientist 69:22 244:2

314:18

scientists 278:16

scope 247:21 293:11

293:22

Scott 1:17 22:17,18

39:15 49:5 83:14

135:5 201:1 202:1

205:7 207:17 209:5

209:18 219:17 223:15

251:19 252:18 291:21

292:16 293:9 326:7,8

326:19 327:1,3
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328:22

Scott's 50:16 252:16

scrapes 37:21

scratch 133:10

screen 273:19

scroll 159:19,20 275:12

275:14,15 286:6

scrolling 275:14

scrubbers 132:15

scrutiny 53:20 307:16

SDBS 299:18

se 293:16

sea 174:7

seamless 330:6

seamlessly 312:1

search 65:18 68:3

208:12

searches 197:15

208:19

season 14:10,16

seasonal 107:4

seats 124:2

second 24:22 46:8,9

59:11 93:7 145:15,16

150:5 152:5 267:9

307:18 314:12 315:13

317:16 321:3,5

323:15 324:3

secondary 158:8

seconded 38:16 47:12

55:5 86:20 89:17

91:16 98:18 102:14

108:9 112:7 122:5

135:4 140:3 145:22

148:22 151:6 153:9

155:5 157:4 160:1

161:18 172:11 175:12

177:10 188:17 190:4

200:20 209:19 215:22

218:20 242:10 266:21

267:10,13 273:17

284:9 286:8

Secondly 100:4

secret 318:12

secretary 1:12 50:20

317:12 318:15,18

319:3,5,7,15 320:13

322:2 325:1,3,13,17

326:19

section 23:13 49:21

84:15 88:1 90:18

92:17 98:14,15

103:21 124:14 136:7

142:8 145:10 147:16

156:6 158:6 191:9,10

196:13 200:12 201:21

209:17 223:13 306:8

sections 142:13 200:11

286:1

sector 165:5,8

sedation 100:7

seed 4:10 54:5 288:5

289:5,7,8 290:19,21

290:21 291:2 300:8

303:18

seeing 16:8 91:12

131:13 133:3,8 146:7

153:6 155:1 156:22

161:14 175:4 177:6

261:16 262:9 287:3

313:9 316:8 324:15

seek 207:6

seen 28:15,19 81:5

110:9 117:15 128:19

128:21 131:5 169:17

222:20 264:2,21

302:13

sees 200:13

segregate 193:3

Seitz 1:18 16:2 39:10

48:3 55:16 56:21 87:9

90:5 92:3 99:3 100:17

102:6,21 108:14

109:15 112:12 113:15

116:1 118:18 122:9

135:19 140:18 146:21

149:14 151:18 153:21

155:16 157:15 160:9

162:3 172:18 175:18

177:14 190:7 201:15

207:13 210:13 216:14

242:21 245:20 252:9

258:12 259:2 269:2

280:3 283:10 285:5

287:11 288:8,13,16

289:10,13 290:8,10

291:4 297:4 304:5

326:3,4

self-nominate 317:17

sell 76:4 188:8

seller 211:16

selling 75:17

semester 22:14 302:19

Senate 311:8

send 12:10 24:20 27:7

143:7 145:13 246:6

265:11 266:11,15,20

267:7 272:17 274:7

276:9

sense 18:4 35:12 61:18

69:11 70:13 74:22

102:9 142:4 164:9

205:2 231:13 251:3

258:11 267:5 269:21

278:11 320:9

sensible 225:12

sensitivity 59:15

sent 206:19 215:17

269:3

sentences 293:21

separate 40:17 51:8

189:3,5 220:18

222:10 256:1 286:18

separating 19:9 220:14

separation 178:20

serenades 315:4

serious 165:5,21

Seriously 237:6

serve 138:22 236:7

241:13 298:10 312:4

317:21

served 241:11 315:13

serves 139:13,14,15

207:13 324:10,12

325:4

service 5:18 173:19

305:16 313:19 330:11

serviced 53:6

services 24:1 36:13

165:10

serving 231:14 325:22

328:15

session 64:2 123:9

set 12:20 52:21 76:19

94:1 197:22 246:19

258:4 262:14 288:10

setting 61:17 128:4

181:11 183:6

settings 164:12 165:16

202:10

settlement 66:4

settles 139:3

settling 138:20 139:2

seven 105:5 109:12

110:7 113:11 114:5

148:17 150:19 153:4

244:14 245:15 261:8

264:10 275:18 276:12

279:15

shaking 263:4

shallow 37:21

shape 15:7,15 278:20

share 6:11 28:10 65:11

65:12,12 67:13 80:1

127:11 194:1 231:22

232:4,11 279:9 290:4

297:18 306:4 315:3

shared 65:16 175:8

231:4,5 297:15

sharing 232:9 240:1

shavings 128:7

sheds 223:14

sheep 104:10,16

125:11

sheet 38:9

shells 152:15

shelves 309:18

shipment 57:1

shipments 309:4,6

shipping 73:3

shiritaki 202:6

short 222:1 290:14

323:18

short-term 109:18

113:17

shortened 110:5

219:20

shot 308:18

show 58:7 275:9

shows 106:6

shutter 53:11

side 49:13 61:4 128:3

130:3 131:1 239:1

side-wise 325:20

sides 279:3 297:5

significant 45:11,12

171:4

silica 152:15

silicate 296:20

silly 52:4 59:14

silver 300:3

similar 27:12 105:10

113:22 194:15 212:22

236:4 264:9 276:5

similarly 203:5 324:16

simple 57:9 193:2

284:13

simply 120:18 269:18

sing 255:4

single 67:19 87:21

88:13 172:10 179:16

251:9

single-farm 312:3

sink 17:18

sit 305:12

site 30:15 65:22 66:2

68:6

sites 16:6 76:6

sitting 13:21

situation 51:12,13

58:13,15 120:12

223:9

situations 58:2,3

168:14

six 244:14 252:11 254:8

260:1 280:8

sixth 234:20

size 80:13 193:4 195:13

skills 247:19

skin 127:1,6

skip 92:5

slam- 263:13
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slate 22:14 28:17

slaughter 100:11

109:12 111:7 113:11

slaughterhouses 194:5

200:6

slaughtering 199:20

slides 11:1 65:17

slow 309:8

slowly 152:7

small 73:21 80:12 82:9

123:15,17 170:17

171:20 183:22 193:5

193:12 197:3 206:18

304:7 315:14

small-scale 170:10

171:14

smaller 56:14 107:22

smaller-scale 120:12

smoothies 179:6

sneaking 295:6

socialize 293:6,12

sodium 3:7,17,18,19,21

88:10 156:3,7,11

157:3 158:4,8,17

159:21 163:3 178:7

178:11,15 180:5,6,18

180:20,22 181:8

182:7,20 184:14

188:15 190:2 296:5

296:18 299:22 300:1

soil 17:8,11,11,13,17

63:14 105:14,19

125:7 234:10 309:19

311:22 314:18

soils 129:9

sold 204:9 309:5

solicit 203:15 222:6

soluble 202:5

solution 167:15

solve 60:19 81:22 139:4

139:6 144:19 185:18

198:9,10

solved 60:15,16 290:13

someone's 14:11 82:13

206:6

somewhat 27:3 30:21

50:5 56:14 142:19

145:5 220:17 247:2

272:13 298:2

song 255:4

Sonny 239:18

soon 40:18

soothing 139:14

sophisticated 71:16

72:2

sorely 314:21

sorry 8:10 10:20 28:2

38:20 84:3 99:16

126:19 154:10,11

194:20 235:18 248:13

266:9 276:8 297:10

298:8 302:16,17

sort 16:3 17:6 30:20

70:13 78:5,12 184:7

192:18 207:16 231:9

235:22 266:3 270:5

282:1 297:15,16

sorting 193:19

soul 235:15

sounded 225:12

sounding 314:9

sounds 144:5

source 198:4 206:12

209:9 211:7 214:3,4

215:6 247:12

sources 198:17 205:3

212:8

sourcing 80:17,19

soy-based 21:5 156:18

soybean 199:10

speak 48:17 65:7

170:21 171:3 180:12

180:13 185:15 221:9

244:2 278:4 305:1

speaker 10:3 60:21

speakers 11:6 60:13

speaking 65:3 278:16

314:5

speaks 314:7

special 64:6

specialist 2:11,16

325:8

species 24:5 30:18

130:11 134:10 243:19

specific 7:3 8:3,17

13:13 67:14 69:13

86:8 101:6 145:7

233:14 261:6

specifically 13:11 29:9

29:13 104:8 118:15

226:8 257:6 261:9

291:2 292:22 330:5

specified 147:20

319:11

spectrum 10:20 259:5

spectrums 7:10 8:17,19

speeded- 100:22

speeded-up 110:1

spend 9:15,16 251:9

spent 10:13 72:15

spices 73:9

spirit 307:4

split 115:4 116:12

121:10 179:3

spoke 181:3 211:13

233:18 258:2 293:10

309:11

spoken 207:2

spot 28:3 121:12

208:16 230:19 279:6

spots 47:2

spray 137:1

spraying 164:15

spread 101:1

spreading 134:1

spreads 82:8

spring 107:9 145:2

148:10 152:21 156:17

174:20 177:2 186:22

192:3 215:12 219:19

222:3 290:16 296:3,8

spring's 192:17

stabilizer 156:14

202:11

stabilizing 179:7

stacked 11:5

staff 2:9 307:8

stages 82:15

stakeholder 230:7,12

stakeholders 222:7

259:17 289:2

standard 76:18,19

223:4 310:20 311:1

standardize 212:11

standardizing 212:17

standards 1:3 2:14 9:10

12:20 76:1 213:19

305:17 308:11 328:21

standing 272:16

standpoint 127:21

257:2 268:14 271:4

start 7:18 38:20 47:12

55:5 74:5,6 76:13

84:11,14 87:1 89:20

91:19 98:19 102:17

108:11 112:9 122:8

135:5 138:17 140:5

143:3 146:3,8 149:3

151:8 155:7 157:6

160:3 161:20 172:14

175:14 177:12 193:4

194:14 195:16 198:7

209:21 216:2 218:22

228:17 229:6 242:10

267:22 278:17 284:16

286:11 287:4 298:11

299:18 318:17,22

started 5:10 39:20

83:19,21 124:4

307:22

starting 38:10,11 96:8

124:7 138:18 147:13

starts 190:5 278:20

317:14

state 10:4 36:2,6 120:9

199:21 200:7 225:7

295:15

stated 114:6 156:17

221:16 286:2

statement 41:11 82:22

159:13 252:13

statements 273:15

states 1:1 94:11 197:5

213:7 317:21

stating 224:13

status 63:14 196:22

197:8

stay 101:15 104:22

112:2 170:8 175:1

229:22

stays 14:14

stearate 300:18

steep 53:2

stems 193:21

step 10:17 11:8 26:5

27:19 28:14 43:18

48:14 49:1 131:4,6

240:13 299:3 313:2

steps 5:14 6:11 50:3

68:10 81:10

sterilize 169:18

steroid 95:4

Steve 1:15 15:1 17:4

98:20 130:1 161:20

171:12 176:17 177:10

192:15 195:12 205:1

214:8 217:10 218:19

237:13 263:7 264:1

266:8 267:13 269:3

284:9 294:4 302:9

315:11

stick 142:7 289:7

stimulant 139:15

stone 277:11

stop 273:16 309:8

storage 154:17 161:6,9

store 309:18

story 309:11

straightforward 177:1

217:19 263:12

strategically 163:13

strategy 26:22 104:15

144:4

Straus 96:11 143:11

stream 19:5 189:17

streamlining 235:14

Street 1:9 21:15,21 22:1

strength 80:6

strengthen 44:15 78:16

strengthening 40:6

44:20 50:21

stress 42:15 170:7
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stretch 274:2

strict 20:5

stricter 21:12

stronger 145:2 311:9

struck 35:16

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187:18 194:4

struggled 27:11

struggling 8:14 263:8

studies 107:13 125:17

studying 10:6

stuff 61:1,8

sub- 272:10

sub-tropical 202:5

subcommittee 3:5,14

4:1,7,12 6:17 8:7

19:18 22:13,16 24:20

25:22 38:14,18 74:9

83:12 84:7 86:7 91:9

93:2 96:5 101:13

104:18 110:12 115:5

124:18 136:13 137:5

137:16 141:9 143:8

145:14,21 146:1

147:4,16 148:16

179:1 180:2,9,12,13

189:20,20 221:1,10

228:18 229:6 230:17

254:4 256:20,21

259:13 266:20,22

267:13 273:12 278:2

284:8,14 286:1 288:1

288:4 291:10,16,18

291:19 292:12 295:17

296:1,12 298:12,17

303:16 314:2 324:10

324:13 325:5

subcommittee's 95:1

290:14

subcommittees 189:19

307:17

subjected 127:6

submit 191:7 289:3

submitted 124:12 136:4

subsequently 110:3

113:22

substance 84:18 95:21

100:18 109:16 115:3

120:8 124:20 126:16

129:21 136:12,17,19

156:6 161:3 178:10

210:22 211:2,12

212:15 217:22 227:4

substances 3:5,15 4:6

84:16 147:18 148:8

156:15 226:5,7,13,22

227:1 228:1,4,7,10

substantive 254:6

258:14,21 259:6,15

success 97:12

succinct 192:13

succinctly 232:19

sucrose 296:21 303:10

Sue 1:13 31:9 33:8

36:17 54:3 89:17

91:16 107:18 120:16

122:6 123:2,3 128:18

132:22 140:5 195:5

196:17 209:21 249:7

250:4 276:10 282:11

Sue's 134:2

suffering 309:9

suffers 95:12

sufficient 181:14

212:10 225:17 276:5

sufficiently 208:14

224:14

sugar 214:18 215:1

suggest 39:21 45:20

167:21 240:12

suggested 126:11

suggesting 12:4 115:6

195:2

suggestion 43:20

144:13 186:8 235:21

suggestions 34:21 44:2

192:8

suitable 119:16

suite 69:9

sulfate 3:9 103:18

104:2,7,19 107:8

108:6

sulfonate 300:1

sulfur 3:11 124:7,11,14

124:19 125:3,8,12,18

128:1,5,8,20 130:4,18

131:11,22 132:10,13

133:16,19 135:3

296:5,21,21 300:19

sulfurous 297:1

sulphate 99:16

summarized 179:21

summary 44:22 45:7

192:13 205:12 230:4

230:11 232:18 240:2

312:19

summer 67:6

sunlight 8:19

sunlight-lit 11:7

sunset 3:5,15 18:16

19:12 21:10 83:22

84:11,14 101:1

103:14 121:5,13,14

121:16,17 147:13,16

189:11,11,15 195:21

210:18,21 216:20,22

217:3,12 224:6 228:4

300:13 301:15,16

304:16 305:3

sunsets 296:13,14,17

299:9 303:7

sunsetting 103:17

super 77:14

supplement 174:13

supplements 174:13

supplies 205:22 294:17

supply 39:18 44:15

51:13,18 55:3 72:20

73:16 74:12 75:2

77:14 80:21 81:2

82:13,16 118:1 167:8

192:22 193:11 205:14

207:15

support 28:11 47:5

54:1 91:2 94:14,22

96:19 117:8 125:15

126:7 134:15 148:12

235:3,10 236:19

242:2 269:15 271:1

311:12,15,16 330:2

330:13

supported 96:12 101:3

110:8 125:16,20

126:9,15 269:9

310:18

supporting 43:13

238:16

supportive 78:22

supports 42:7

suppose 254:9

supposed 37:12 226:1

surface 158:10

surfaces 88:17 162:20

163:10

surgery 109:22 113:20

119:10

surgical 85:2,22

surprise 11:18 308:20

surprised 111:9 277:20

310:6

surprising 308:2

survey 202:17

suspect 57:1

suspended 67:19

suspension 65:21

71:12

suspensions 66:2

67:22

sustainability 221:2

sustainable 220:6

231:8

sweetener 58:6

swine 125:11 194:4

sympathetic 311:11

sympathize 215:4

synthetic 3:13 12:18

14:2,9 84:16 96:16

97:14 104:14 124:20

132:11 136:19 141:4

142:9,18,21,22 143:4

145:8,19 164:7

217:15 224:8,20

225:3

synthetics 142:12

154:13 156:7 158:7

161:1 162:18 168:8

174:5 176:13 178:10

syrups 152:16

system 9:8,10,21 29:19

31:1,3 32:14 34:1,6,6

34:22 35:10 60:1,15

60:19 61:11 66:20

67:11 69:16 70:21,22

71:6,9,13,22 82:17

138:13 139:17 141:19

167:9 169:19 170:13

181:5 185:17 193:9

236:6 237:1 242:2

270:6 281:7 312:3

316:9

system-level 70:19

system-wide 72:5

systemic 139:6

systems 6:7 9:19 11:7

17:14 68:12 97:12

107:15 169:21 199:15

199:15 312:6

T

table 38:6 46:7 81:16

81:21 266:2 278:10

314:20

tack 40:5 93:18

tackle 82:19

tackling 40:14

taken 69:14 139:8

310:7

takes 84:1 197:21

241:19 304:18

talk 64:12 65:10 77:21

88:12 106:4,5 134:18

144:11 159:13 173:21

192:20 240:5 241:4

245:6 276:18 288:6

talked 8:18 19:17 89:8

110:20 204:3 206:19

316:2

talking 46:20,21 50:6

58:5 83:2,3,4 173:13

203:14 223:20 232:2

237:22 245:2 255:13
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273:12 275:6 279:11

297:10

tallied 322:16

tally 319:5,15

tamarind 300:7

TAP 192:9

target 296:3

tartar 218:5

tartare 176:20

tartrate 3:20 4:3 176:11

176:15,18 177:9

189:14 217:10 218:16

task 115:14 289:17

325:16

Taskforce 43:5

tasks 325:11

TBD 247:3 255:12

256:1 259:11 282:9

283:10 286:3

TBDs 276:22 282:15

286:5

tea 107:13

team 6:13 260:17

297:17 324:11 325:5

329:8

tear 138:9,18

teat 85:3,17,21 303:3

technical 18:21 29:14

85:6 92:20 100:14

104:3,12 124:16

136:11,14 137:12

148:2 152:11 154:14

156:8 158:12,13

161:3 163:5 174:8

176:15 178:12 179:13

195:17 211:1 225:6

226:21 228:4 247:19

260:19 307:16

technique 253:4 274:15

techniques 261:12,16

274:15 276:6

technologies 18:19

57:18 243:16 256:12

262:12 268:19 276:17

277:9 281:9 282:8

technology 57:21 207:1

252:3 262:10 263:13

268:17 276:19

tell 58:4 69:17 70:3

119:19 195:9 198:3

278:12

telling 54:10 249:10

temperamental 280:4

temperatures 85:18

ten 14:14,17 244:13

285:13 316:2

tendency 60:16

tends 115:2

tens 33:14

tenure 141:1

term 45:12 222:1,2

313:17 317:22

terminology 4:9 274:1

289:14 303:21

terms 6:11 8:15 10:1

32:6,7 43:19 44:11,16

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360

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200,000 308:7

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2005 92:21

2006 161:4 163:6

2008 158:13

201 3:22

2010 148:3

2012 229:17

2013 158:15

2013-2018 305:17

2014 18:15

2015 18:15 85:7 100:21

104:3 110:1 113:21
(202) 234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

363

150:13 161:12 174:22

179:13 211:2 224:5

226:10,12,14 301:13

2016 110:6 124:12

136:5 174:8 178:13

226:14 273:20 274:10

274:12 275:3,12,14

275:16

2017 1:5,7 4:9 84:11

176:16 242:8 275:16

2018 296:3

2019 3:5,15 210:21

2020 296:16 303:7

2022 103:15,17 121:15

217:1,4 305:4

205 100:5

205.101(b)(1) 41:8

205.600(b) 122:3

205.600(b)(1) 98:16

205.603 103:21 124:15

135:3 136:7 140:2

205.603(a) 98:12 99:19

102:13 152:8

205.603(b) 108:6 122:1

205.605 147:17 150:1

158:6

205.605(a) 148:21

151:5 153:8 155:4

156:6 157:3 174:19

205.605(b) 4:4,5 159:22

161:17 172:9 174:5

174:18 175:11 176:14

177:9 178:10 188:16

190:3 218:18

205.606 191:10 200:19

201:21 209:15 215:21

218:18

205603 84:15 88:2

90:18 92:17

205603A 86:18 89:14

91:15

206.603(b) 112:6

21 100:2

210 4:2

2118 98:14

2118(c)(1)(A)(ii) 209:17

2119 98:15

217 4:3

219 4:3

224 4:5,6

226 4:6

229 4:9

23 3:4 33:20

23rd 315:10 318:9

243 4:9

245 1:9

261 4:10

291 4:11

292 4:12

3

3:58 330:19

30,000-cow 309:3

303 41:9,22

307 41:21

318 4:14,16

327 4:18

330 4:20

37220-17-0 201:22

4

5

50 238:21

50-billion-dollar 308:4

50,000 53:3

500 60:6

530 100:2

59-98-3 99:20

6

60 60:3

606 195:8,17,22 196:10

197:14,20 208:5,11

208:19 218:4

7

7 91:9 96:2 98:15 100:4

122:3

7-2 86:9

70 60:2

8

8 3:2

8:30 1:9 84:5

8:33 5:2

84 3:6

87 3:7

9

90 3:7 72:14,17 109:11

111:2,8 113:10 199:9

90,000 52:22

92 3:8

93 59:19

97 199:10

99 3:8 31:2 59:18
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

364

Fall 2017 Meeting

USDA/NOSB

11-02-17

Jacksonville, FL