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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURE MARKETING SERVICE (AMS)

NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM (NOP)

+ + + + +

MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIC

STANDARDS BOARD (NOSB)

+ + + + +

FRIDAY

APRIL 29, 2011

+ + + + +

The National Organic Standards

Board convened at 8:00 a.m. in the Emerald I

Meeting Room at the Red Lion Hotel, 1514 Fifth

Avenue, Seattle, Washington, Tracy Miedema,

Chairperson, presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT

TRACY MIEDEMA, Chairperson

COLEHOUR BONDERA

STEVE DEMURI

JOSEPH DICKSON

KRISTINE "TINA" ELLOR

BARRY FLAMM

JOHN FOSTER

WENDY FULWIDER

KATRINA HEINZE

NICHOLAS MARAVELL

ROBERT "MAC" STONE

JENNIFER TAYLOR

C. REUBEN WALKER
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STAFF PRESENT

MILES McEVOY, Deputy Administrator, National

Organic Program

MELISSA BAILEY, Director, Standards 

Division, National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, Standards Division, National 

Organic Program

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, Standards Division,

National Organic Program

LISA AHRAMJIAN, NOSB Executive Director
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Page

NOSB Consideration and Vote

on Committee Action Items

Crops Committee

John Foster, Chairperson

Petitioned Materials Recommendations

Sunset 2012 Recommendations

on § 205.601 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23

Sunset 2012 Recommendations

on § 205.602 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 169

Sodium Nitrate Recommendation . . . . . 169

Corn Steep Liquor Recommendation . . . 183

Livestock Committee

Wendy Fulwider, Chairperson

Stocking Rates Recommendation

Animal Handling, Transit, and Slaughter

Recommendation . . . . . . . . . . . . 221

Handling Committee

Steve DeMuri, Chairperson

Petitioned Materials Recommendations

Sunset 2012 Recommendations

on § 205.605(a) . . . . . . . . . . . . 254

Sunset 2012 Recommendations

on § 205.605(b) . . . . . . . . . . . . 264

Chlorine Materials Annotation

Recommendation . . . . . . . . . . . . 281
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Page

Materials Committee

Katrina Heinze, Chairperson

Materials Classification Guidance

Document Recommendation . . . . . . . . 324

Policy Development Committee

Barry Flamm, Chairperson

NOSB Policy and Procedure Manual

Recommendations . . . . . . . . . . . . 327

Committee Workplans . . . . . . . . . . 331

Other Business and Closing Remarks . . 343

Adjournment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 359
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:19 a.m.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We're back in

4 session for day four of the National Organic

5 Standards Board meeting. Today is voting day,

6 and we have a few reminders and announcements

7 about our process, and about the protocols

8 under which we'll operate today, so we'll work

9 through those first, and then get right into

10 Crops Committee votes this morning.

11 First, a word from the National

12 Organic Program about conflict of interest or

13 what's called balance of interest and ISO.

14 Deputy Administrator Miles McEvoy.

15 MR. MCEVOY: Good morning. The

16 Organic Food Production Act set up the

17 National Organic Standards Board to have a

18 variety of interests represented on the Board:

19 four individuals who operate an organic

20 farming operation; two who own or operate an

21 organic handling operation; one individual who

22 owns or operates a retail establishment with
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1 significant trade in organic products; three

2 shall be individuals with expertise in areas

3 of environmental protection and resource

4 conservation; three shall be individuals who

5 represent public interest or consumer interest

6 groups; one shall be an individual with

7 expertise in the fields of toxicology, ecology

8 or biochemistry; and one shall be an

9 individual who is a certifying agent as

10 identified under section 2116.

11 And the concept I think is well

12 described in ISO Guide 65 of this concept of

13 balance of interests, that there's a number of

14 different stakeholders that are on the Board,

15 that we want this balance of interest, these

16 stakeholders to weigh in on the decisions that

17 affect the organic trade and the organic

18 community. And so from ISO Guide 65, one of

19 the sections there, I can't actually read the

20 section number here, "the structure of the

21 certification agent"--this is regarding

22 certification--"shall be such to foster
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1 confidence in the certifications." And then

2 it talks about "the certification agent shall

3 have formal rules and structures for the

4 appointment and operation of any committees

5 which are involved in the certification

6 process. Such committees shall be free from

7 any commercial, financial and other pressures

8 that might influence decisions or have a

9 structure where members are chosen to provide

10 a balance of interests, where no single

11 interest predominates and will be deemed to

12 satisfy this provision." So--and this is also

13 incorporated into the International Federation

14 of Organic Agriculture Movements, their

15 requirement of balance of interest in their

16 accreditation criteria. So the National

17 Organic Standards Board is set up in that kind

18 of concept.

19 In addition, the NOSB Policy

20 Manual covers conflict of interest, which is

21 separate from the concept of balance of

22 interest. And there, that's defined as "that
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1 members of the Board shall refrain from taking

2 any official Board action from which that

3 Board member is or would derive direct

4 financial gain, and Board members shall

5 disclose their interest to the Board and the

6 public when they or their affiliated business

7 stand to gain from a vote which they cast in

8 the course of Board business. Under certain

9 circumstances, the Board may determine whether

10 it is appropriate for the member to vote."

11 So there's a lot of different

12 votes that are coming up today, and the

13 concept is we want the Board--we understand

14 that there are interests involved, and that's

15 how the Board is designed. And so the Board

16 members should vote to represent their

17 interests that they represent, and then the

18 conflict of interest is to recuse yourself if

19 you or your company would gain direct

20 financial gain from the decision. So I hope

21 that helps to kind of make that distinction.

22 So please do not recuse yourself if you have
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1 an interest that you're representing, but you

2 would want to if you would gain direct

3 financial gain for you or your company.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you Miles.

5 This is an important topic, and one that has

6 come up at every meeting, and for those of us

7 that work for either larger companies or very

8 diverse organizations such as, say a retailer

9 that sells nearly every organic food under the

10 sun, or a certifier that represents producers,

11 handlers of every stripe, growers that use a

12 whole range of materials, we're here because

13 we have that depth of expertise, and we would

14 not be able to vote on maybe anything if you

15 really peered into the full web of

16 connectedness of this very tight knit organic

17 community.

18 So we have to make judgment calls,

19 because we're here to vote, that's our

20 responsibility. We really have a

21 responsibility to take a stand and weigh in.

22 I'm spending a little extra time on this this
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1 morning because we have new members, and we

2 really haven't had a lot of time to talk about

3 this together. So we will ask for conflict of

4 interest; sometimes Board members will make

5 decisions to recuse based even on the

6 appearance, unfortunately, of conflict, when

7 it may be better that somebody votes, but it

8 feels like you're inviting exposure. So

9 that's just sort of an unfortunate side effect

10 of applying this policy to our work. But

11 we're going to do the best we can, and I

12 always assume best intentions. I'm assuming

13 best intentions of every single person up here

14 at the table, and of all of you too out there

15 in the audience. So thanks for letting us

16 spend a little time on this. Questions from

17 the Board on this topic? Katrina and then

18 Colehour.

19 MS. HEINZE: So, I am an

20 experiential learner, so it might help if we

21 could do a couple of examples. So maybe on

22 the two extremes--I asked this question
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1 earlier--so someone who, in Tracy's example,

2 works for a large company, they probably use

3 a lot--they're connected to everything. At

4 what point does it become personal financial

5 gain versus not personal financial gain? So

6 that's one. Then on the other hand, someone

7 who maybe works for a consumer group, when

8 does it become personal financial gain for

9 them? If we could have some examples, that

10 would help me. Obviously, it's going to be

11 something I need to do right.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I would invite

13 fellow Board members, anyone to weigh in on

14 that. I do think that there's a modicum of

15 personal decision though, that ends up being

16 applied on a case by case basis to each of us

17 individuals, and to each vote. But if anybody

18 wants to throw something out to illustrate the

19 point, they're welcome to. Miles.

20 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, I would think

21 that if your company uses a particular

22 material, that's not direct financial gain,
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1 but if you owned--if you're voting on a

2 national list material, and your company owned

3 an interest in that particular substance, then

4 that would be potentially a direct financial

5 gain. So--yes.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: There's an

7 example.

8 MS. HEINZE: What about the other

9 side of the spectrum? Someone who maybe

10 represents an interest group, or--

11 MR. MCEVOY: So if that interest

12 group also had an interest in--a financial

13 interest in a material that was being sold,

14 then that would be a direct financial gain.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other

16 questions on this? Colehour, yes.

17 MR. BONDERA: I just want to ask

18 for the sake of--even if it's just personal

19 clarification, just to make sure I understand

20 this, and I think through example I'll see it

21 as it plays out. But I personally would

22 rather, in advance, understand. If somebody
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1 does--one of us does say that--share with the

2 Board our potential conflict of interest, is

3 the Board going to discuss that, and how--or

4 is the Board going to give feedback to that

5 member about a suggestion, and am I accurate

6 that in the end, it's the individual Board

7 member to decide to recuse themselves or not?

8 So that's a sort of double parted question,

9 but I'd like clarification on it before

10 implementation.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Anybody want to

12 take a--I recognize Kim Dietz in the audience.

13 MS. DIETZ: Sorry I wasn't ready

14 to get up; I'm traveling today. In the past,

15 what the Board has done is if somebody's

16 declared a conflict of interest, or even maybe

17 not know they have a conflict of interest, but

18 just said I'd like the Board to decide, the

19 Board would actually say whether or not they

20 thought. So they would almost kind of take a

21 hand vote, and it's up to the Board to--

22 because the perception of conflict of interest
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1 is important, too. Anything else? So for

2 example, you know, when Julie Weisman was on

3 the Board, she was a flavor manufacturer. So

4 if they were voting on flavors, because she

5 made a financial gain, she would recuse

6 herself, or she would say I might have a

7 conflict, what does the Board think? And then

8 the Board would go on and say yes, we do think

9 you have it--or no, we don't.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

11 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, and I think it's

12 also important to recognize that it's not

13 expected that the Board would recuse

14 themselves if they had a strong perspective on

15 a given substance or policy. It's set up so

16 that there is this balance of interests, and

17 we want that balance of interest to be part of

18 the process, and the voting process, unless

19 there's that direct financial gain.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, let's talk

21 about voting. We operate on a two-thirds

22 majority for all decisive Board votes, which
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1 is pretty much everything we're doing today.

2 And recusals and abstentions count toward

3 quorum in this room. So, so long as there are

4 ten people present at the table at the time of

5 voting, we have quorum. Recusals and

6 abstentions do not count toward the total vote

7 count, and so the two-thirds majority is a

8 ratcheting down set of numbers based on the

9 number of yes and no votes. So if all 14 of

10 us vote, a two-thirds majority is 10. If it's

11 13, it's nine. 12, it's eight. 11 people

12 voting, it's also eight. Ten people voting,

13 seven. Nine is six, eight is six, seven is

14 five. Six is four, and then we have hit the

15 minimum number to keep our quorum.

16 Okay, so I will be getting help

17 from Joe Dickson making sure my math is

18 correct on every one of these. Any questions

19 about what a two-thirds majority vote means in

20 our voting procedures today? Okay great. We

21 didn't mention abstentions. You may abstain

22 from a vote if you feel like you are simply
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1 not ready to vote for a whole host of reasons.

2 You can make that determination yourself if

3 you feel that you are not prepared to vote on

4 a particular material or motion.

5 With that, we're going to move

6 into the Crops Committee--oh, some questions.

7 Steve and then Katrina.

8 MR. DEMURI: One other thing you

9 might want to explain, especially for the new

10 members is the way that we propose our

11 recommendations, always in the affirmative.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina, can you

13 please explain that one?

14 MS. HEINZE: Sure. If you

15 remember from my materials recommendation

16 update, which was on Tuesday, early in the

17 morning, which probably feels like weeks ago,

18 we always make our motions in the affirmative.

19 So we move that a document be accepted, or we

20 move that a material be re-listed, or we move

21 that an annotation be changed. And that's so

22 that the Board, for those things, the yes or
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1 no is definitive. So for example, if we move

2 to accept a document, then if you support the

3 document, you vote yes; if you don't support

4 the document, you vote no. So in general, for

5 any of these motions, so say material to be

6 listed, if the motion does not get a two7 thirds vote, the motion then fails, and if

8 it's a petition material, for example, it

9 would not be listed. So you just need to

10 really keep track of yeses or nos.

11 The other thing you need to pay

12 attention to is if a committee, for example,

13 has got a petition, and they reviewed it, and

14 they do not think it's going--they are not

15 recommending it for listing, their motion will

16 be in the affirmative, but their vote total

17 will be most likely zero yeses, some number of

18 nos. So if there's more nos than yeses, that

19 is a recommendation not to list. And we can

20 go through it in individual cases.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick.

22 MR. MARAVELL: Katrina, when you
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1 say more of one or the other, more has to be

2 a two-thirds for a decisive action to not re3 list?

4 MS. HEINZE: For the Board. To be

5 honest, I don't know if that's true in

6 committee. Do we do two-thirds in committee?

7 MR. MARAVELL: Oh, no.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No, it's a simple

9 majority in committee. And Katrina, what she

10 was referring to is if you look through our

11 materials that you have on our disc, and you

12 want to refer back to how the committee voted,

13 you know, you're refreshing your memory on the

14 discussions we had, but also on the documents,

15 Katrina was referencing just how to read the

16 votes that were tallied at the committee

17 level.

18 What we haven't covered yet, and

19 it's important that we do, this is the first

20 time that this Board may make changes to

21 annotations during sunset. We have a brand

22 new policy on that that we have never used.
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1 So let's make sure right now before we start

2 voting that we are totally square on how the

3 order of the votes will proceed, because that

4 can have a great impact. The intent of the

5 order of the votes was that no material should

6 drop off the list inadvertently because we

7 couldn't agree on an annotation change. Who

8 feels best prepared to describe--thank you

9 Katrina, I was hoping you were going to raise

10 your hand.

11 MS. HEINZE: The Material Chair is

12 having to work a lot harder than she's had to

13 in the past. Okay. The sunset policy change

14 that this Board approved at our last meeting

15 says that the Board takes two votes. The

16 first vote--I thought you were going to bring

17 it up there for a sec. That's okay. The

18 first vote is for any change to the

19 annotation; the second vote is to re-list as

20 is. You always take both votes, so part of

21 the concern with making this change to our

22 policy was that an annotation change makes the
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1 sunset docket possibly material, so it could

2 make it much more difficult for the program to

3 get that docket through. So we wanted to give

4 them a backup with this re-list as is, so that

5 if the docket got hung up, they could put the

6 re-list as is into the sunset docket and

7 handle the annotation change in a separate

8 recommendation. So we need to give them both

9 votes so that they can do that. Does that

10 explain it? But that's the order that you do

11 it.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes, thank you.

13 And that is counter to what I said the other

14 day, when I was talking with the gentleman

15 about how the vote would go on Chilean

16 nitrate. And there was some concern there,

17 and I had said that the material itself would

18 be voted on first, and it is the annotation.

19 Essentially, the second vote overrides the

20 first vote. It doesn't override it?

21 MS. HEINZE: It complements it.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Complements it,
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1 okay. Okay.

2 MS. HEINZE: So it--both are

3 recommendations from the Board. So if you re4 list as is and say you want an annotation

5 change, the program executes both.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I got you. Okay.

7 All right. Away we go. Oh, thank you.

8 Miles.

9 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, and I think that

10 the reason for that is that there could be an

11 annotation change that you're requesting that

12 when we take it to the Office of General

13 Counsel, and they take a look at it, it's

14 either, you know, it's not clear or it's going

15 to conflict with something, and so in order

16 to--if we get that kind of feedback, then we

17 have that fallback position that we could move

18 forward with the re-listing, and deal with the

19 annotation change through some other longer

20 process.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. We're

22 going to vote today in the same order as our
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1 voting sheet, and that means we're going to

2 start this morning with tetracycline. Do I

3 have a motion?

4 MR. FOSTER: To get started? Yes,

5 sorry. So a couple of things just by way of

6 introduction. Board members, I have really

7 hot cinnamon candies here, painfully hot, and

8 espresso beans. So I'm going to be passing

9 those around through the course of the day;

10 take them if you're interested. I've only

11 been here a year, but I'm down with the

12 espresso beans now.

13 So yes, we have a motion. Sorry

14 Tracy. The--I also will ask a little

15 indulgence; I'm new at this Crops Chair thing,

16 new with the annotation, and as you all know,

17 we've had a number of annotation changes in

18 front of us, so I beg your indulgence and

19 patience with the new Crops Chair, if you

20 would be so kind. 

21 The--we do, we have a

22 recommendation. We met last night as a Crops
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1 Committee, a full committee of seven--

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Excuse me. Please

3 state the motion and then we'll have time for

4 a discussion.

5 MR. FOSTER: Sorry about that.

6 Education starts quickly. Yes, the motion is

7 to recommend the adoption of the petition to

8 amend the listing for tetracycline to remove

9 the expiration date of October 21, 2012, and

10 be annotated as follows: 205.601 (i) as plant

11 disease control, (10) tetracycline

12 (oxytetracycline) for the fire blight control

13 in apples and pears only until October 21,

14 2012. So sorry, 2014 as it is expressed on

15 the screen.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Do I hear a

17 second. Steve DeMuri seconds. Any

18 discussion? Tina.

19 MS. ELLOR: In response to the

20 plethora of public comment we got on this, we

21 did get together as the Crops Committee last

22 night, and put forward this compromise based
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1 on a lot of the comment that we got, and

2 hoping that this will move things forward in

3 the right direction.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick.

5 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, I think it's

6 the expectation of the committee that we will

7 see progress come to the NOSB from time to

8 time, as we're nearing the next deadline here,

9 and that that progress should be viewed as

10 significant towards making a transition away

11 from this material.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I have a question.

13 Is the Crops Committee willing to go on record

14 saying that if there still isn't an adequate

15 replacement, that they would be willing to

16 consider extending that date again? John.

17 MR. FOSTER: I--Crops Committee,

18 correct me if I'm wrong--we did talk about

19 that; I believe there would be an openness to

20 the consideration of it, if certain

21 expectations are met, which is what the last

22 line up there is intended to convey.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

2 MR. MCEVOY: Could you read that

3 last line that's included in your

4 recommendation?

5 MR. FOSTER: The last line is "the

6 committee expects that members of the industry

7 will collaborate and coordinate efforts in

8 preparing for the eventual removal of this

9 material from the national list, specifically

10 optimizing the use of resistant root stocks

11 and cultivars while also the use of alternate

12 allowed chemical controls whenever warranted."

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay.

14 MR. FELDMAN: We talked in the

15 committee last night about feeling the need to

16 see progress in this direction over the next

17 three years, and we mentioned this concept of

18 transition plans, which I thought we could

19 incorporate in this language. Sorry I wasn't

20 able to get back to you, John. So that we as

21 a Board can look at these transition plans and

22 have some means of evaluating whether progress
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1 is really being made or was made. We would

2 hate to find ourselves back here in three

3 years in the same exact situation we are

4 currently. I mean the Board has previously

5 voted to remove this material, we're reversing

6 a Board decision of 2008 was it, and I guess

7 people bring their own judgment currently as

8 to whether there's been progress made, but

9 certainly it was the understanding, if you

10 read the transcripts of the past Board

11 decision, it was the understanding that an

12 alternative would have come along, an

13 alternative as you've described, a combination

14 of materials and practices, or practices and

15 materials that would have made this material

16 unnecessary at this point.

17 So, the idea of encouraging, we

18 can't, you know, encouraging the industry to

19 work together to develop transition plans

20 which address elements of practice and

21 product. We heard a lot about product in the

22 discussion from growers, waiting for the yeast
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1 product or this product. I personally would

2 like to see more discussion about practice,

3 you know, trees per acre, you know, density,

4 pruning, soil management. I'd like to see all

5 these things, in addition to root stocks and

6 cultivars and varieties and all that. I'd

7 like to see--otherwise, I'm not going to be

8 able to vote to continue this in three years.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Point of

10 information. You've said three years a few

11 times; don't you mean two years, if this is--

12 MR. FELDMAN: Three years from

13 right now. I mean two years past the date of

14 expiration, yes.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes, it would be--

16 any reconsideration would need to happen in

17 two years, so, from--

18 MR. FELDMAN: Right, that's true.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: --okay--

20 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Katrina.

22 MS. HEINZE: I have a couple of
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1 comments and questions on this. So in the

2 five years that I've been coming to NOSB

3 meetings, we talked a ton about methionine for

4 livestock. And we voted, or the Board has

5 voted prior to me being on the Board, on

6 methionine at least two or three times, and

7 the conversation is very similar. And each of

8 those methionine conversations, folks stood up

9 and said there's going to be alternatives,

10 we're working on it really hard, and then they

11 come back and say yes, it worked good in the

12 lab, but wasn't scalable.

13 The development of new practices,

14 new materials takes a very long time. And so

15 I'm concerned with the 2014 date. I just

16 don't think that's long enough. So that was

17 my statement. My question is if this motion

18 fails, then tetracycline comes off in 2012,

19 correct? So if I want to keep it, I have to

20 vote for this or offer an alternative, is that

21 the right process?

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes. Okay Jay,
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1 then Nick, and then Mac.

2 MR. FELDMAN: You know, we were

3 hoping that the industry would look--and

4 hopefully the Department also would

5 collaborate in this as well. I mean it would

6 be nice if the Department spearheaded

7 something like this, this collaboration with

8 industry to effect a transition and help

9 motivate or incentivize the changes through

10 research support, coordination and so forth.

11 But the Organic Fruit Tree Association

12 basically has endorsed the time frame, if that

13 makes any difference, Katrina, to your

14 thinking. And so I think we have an

15 opportunity here to motivate, to also tell our

16 consumers that we're serious about this, that

17 we know where you want us to be, and we are

18 going to be monitoring in more specific terms

19 than we've done in the past what that progress

20 is, so that we can make an evaluation,

21 informed evaluation in two years.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.
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1 MS. HEINZE: I totally agree we

2 should all be working on this, and I

3 appreciated all the commitment on that. The

4 reality is, that's three years from now, and

5 so in order to properly assess whether

6 progress has been made in time to keep the

7 material if it's necessary, you're going to be

8 looking at a petition a year and a half from

9 now. Nothing happens in a year and a half.

10 That's my only concern. I get people have

11 endorsed it, I just--we've been down this road

12 on one material; that's a lot of work for

13 everyone; I'm just questioning whether it's

14 really practical.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick.

16 MR. MARAVELL: Well Katrina, I

17 totally agree with what you said--oh, I forgot

18 to reset my phone. And I'm going to speak

19 personally here as opposed to on the part of

20 the committee, and I don't know if other

21 members of the committee would agree with this

22 or not, but I think what we're saying is we're
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1 not comfortable with where the situation is

2 now and how it's proceeding right now, and it

3 was the--let me rephrase that. I am not

4 comfortable with where the situation is now,

5 and that if I were to take a look at that

6 situation a year and a half from now and see

7 significant change, we're not asking for the

8 impossible in terms of results. I'm fully

9 aware of the time lines for research,

10 development and adoption. I will get rid of

11 this, yes.

12 So I think what you're saying is

13 that we're going to be in effect creating a

14 little bit more work for ourselves. I am

15 willing to put up with that work, because I

16 think it will be a helpful incentive to the

17 community to make this transition, and we very

18 much want--I very much want them to make this

19 transition. So that's where I'm coming from

20 personally, I don't know how other members of

21 the committee feel about it, but that's why I

22 voted for this.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour, and then

2 Barry. Okay Barry, Colehour just gave you his

3 spot, and then we'll go to you.

4 MR. FLAMM: I appreciate the

5 comments Katrina made, but the fact is that

6 the committee now has twice in the period of

7 time I've been on the Board, expressed itself,

8 the beliefs that the antibiotics ought to come

9 off the list. We received quite a bit of

10 comments from growers, and not surprisingly,

11 many of them, not all, but many of them have

12 said they needed the product or needed more

13 time. We got some very thoughtful and

14 substantial comments that Jay alluded to from

15 the National Organic Coalition, from groups in

16 the Midwest, Director of Agriculture in

17 Minnesota, and here I'm overlapping our two

18 antibiotics, but providing ideas and I

19 wouldn't say a compromise, but a way to move

20 this along, and there's strong support for

21 moving this issue along.

22 Many of the comments, for example
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1 in Vermont, supported that the antibiotics had

2 to come off the list, but they needed a little

3 more time. And it's more, as Jay referred to,

4 it's much more important than just an input

5 substitution. The culture practice and

6 management, and I've had some experience in

7 doing this, it is doable, and we want to see--

8 and the recommendations you'll see later on

9 too, that we got out of the public comments,

10 suggest ways to make progress forward. We'll

11 have to decide what the progress is, and make

12 the judgment what we do, you know, down the

13 road here, but we want to see progress.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour.

15 MR. BONDERA: Yes, I think I want

16 to at least say to the whole Board, but I'm

17 not certain if maybe it needs to also be--

18 really it's a question, and maybe it needs to

19 be to NOP as well, because I think that there

20 is a real important line to be paying

21 attention to between the word expect or

22 expectation, because in this we're putting
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1 forth an expectation, versus a recommendation,

2 which is what we've already started. And

3 Nick, I think a lot, and Jay also started

4 alluding to, and I think it's unclear for me

5 if we need to be putting forth a separate

6 recommendation of what we would want to see

7 happening. And I'd like to clarify and

8 congeal that. We don't have, in my opinion,

9 in what we're looking at here, a concrete

10 recommendation of how that process would

11 occur, or what it would include. And so I

12 would like to discuss that further and/or

13 better understand what that should include.

14 Thank you.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac.

16 MR. STONE: I think, I mean I have

17 to vote for it. I just want to--whoever gets

18 strong armed to being the Chair over the next

19 few years that if we're going to talk about

20 tetracycline in a year and a half, and then

21 strep in another four years, that it's just

22 going to take a lot of time, and I could see
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1 tying them together so the conversation is a

2 little condensed, would be my thought.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, I don't want

4 to cut off discussion, and I'll call on you

5 Reuben, I just want to make a statement of

6 fact, which is we're an hour in; we have 33

7 votes to take today, so Reuben.

8 MR. WALKER: I would, certainly

9 being a new member to the Board, stress the

10 fact Katrina alluded to, is that some of these

11 things that we are deferring for two years, it

12 takes longer than that for research and

13 outreach. It may take eight, nine or 10 years

14 for any of these things to happen. So I would

15 certainly encourage the industry groups of

16 organics to impress upon our 1862

17 universities. Here it's the University of

18 Washington; in Oregon, it's Oregon State

19 University, and also impress upon the 1890s,

20 which are your historically black colleges.

21 Jennifer is from Florida A&M, a historically

22 black college. There's 17; they receive USDA
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1 funding for research, and your 1994s, which

2 are Hispanic institutions. There's a total of

3 about 109. Because some of this will require

4 research. Other than that, the next five

5 years we will continue to see these things

6 being deferred, with no viable alternative for

7 the organic community.

8 So I would encourage all of us to

9 call the administrators. When the public

10 stakeholders call, they will respond. Other

11 than this, a lot of these products that we are

12 looking at will continue to be deferred and

13 continue to surface.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay.

15 MR. FELDMAN: I actually like

16 Mac's suggestion about folding in the

17 streptomycin, because some of this

18 conversation overlaps and I think we've taken

19 the same strategy for that. But to Colehour's

20 point, I would like to hear from the

21 Department as to whether a separate

22 recommendation on incorporating the NOC
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1 proposal and the organic tree fruit, which was

2 done in collaboration with the Organic Tree

3 Fruit Association, and with our additional

4 language of a transition plan, is something

5 that the Department would be interested,

6 willing to collaborate on. But outside of

7 that, I do think we need a document which is

8 more explicit on our expectations, which is

9 what we talked about last night, so that there

10 aren't any surprises here.

11 And to the issue of extending this

12 beyond, I'm not able to do that. I realize

13 there are administrative issues, and I would

14 even encourage the industry to put in a

15 placeholder petition in case anything goes

16 wrong, but I can't see extending this thing

17 again, and I also--I wouldn't be able to vote

18 for more than a two-year extension at this

19 point.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

21 MS. HEINZE: Thanks everyone, but

22 the motion on the table doesn't have an
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1 extension on it, so Madam I think we should

2 call the question.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Any

4 recusals for conflict? Miles.

5 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, the

6 recommendation as written is not--it has the

7 wrong number, the wrong citation, has (10) on

8 it, it also changes--it has tetracycline,

9 oxytetracycline, which is not the current

10 listing, and it says for fire blight control

11 in apples and pears, which is also a change,

12 just to note that. So the question is are you

13 suggesting to changing the actual citation of

14 the substance itself?

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: What was the

16 intent of the Crops Committee?

17 MR. FOSTER: Jay, you and I maybe

18 want to tag team on this; is that all right?

19 The intent on the parentheses was to hopefully

20 clarify what everyone was assuming, but was

21 not in print, which was that the tetracycline

22 we were looking for was oxytetracycline, and
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1 in the industry, that's how it's referred to.

2 So it was only a clarifying intent there.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

4 MS. HEINZE: Might I suggest that

5 we defer a vote so that the Crops Committee

6 can go back and make sure that they have the

7 right listing, rather than spending time--

8 either way it's just, since we're behind it

9 might be faster for them to huddle real quick

10 at a break.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, we do have a

12 call for the question, so are you rescinding

13 your call for the question?

14 MS. HEINZE: I suppose I could,

15 since we have new information.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Thank you.

17 Nick.

18 MR. MARAVELL: So Miles, I think

19 one was a typo, but the other is that we've

20 added pears and apples, which does not occur

21 in the original listing, and I think we can

22 work that out, John.
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1 MR. FOSTER: Yes, we can circle

2 back quickly and make the typographical

3 corrections.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, so the--we

5 would need to table this motion to move on to

6 other business.

7 MR. FOSTER: I move to table this

8 motion.

9 MS. HEINZE: I second.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Parliamentarian

11 Lisa Brines, do we need to vote to table a

12 motion?

13 MS. BRINES: I think you can just

14 ask if there's any objection, and if there is,

15 you can take the vote.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any objection to

17 tabling this motion? Seeing none, hearing

18 none, we're going to move on to the next

19 Material Crops Committee. Please prepare your

20 document and any motions you would need for

21 annotation change at the break, and Board

22 members, we're going to have to speed it up.
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1 We are zero votes, and we've got to start

2 voting. Next on our voting docket today is

3 nickel. Do I have a motion?

4 MR. FOSTER: Yes, there's a--we

5 have a motion to--sorry, I want to make sure

6 I get the order right here--that we're voting

7 twice on this. One on the classification, and

8 then next on the committee action; is that

9 correct?

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes, so your first

11 motion will be on the classification. We'll

12 vote on that, and then we'll vote on whether

13 to list or not.

14 MR. FOSTER: Yes, we have a motion

15 to list--accept the petition to list nickel as

16 a micronutrient added to 205.601(j)(6)(ii),

17 with the following annotation: not to be used

18 as a defoliant, herbicide or desiccant, those

19 made from nitrates or chlorides are not

20 allowed; soil deficiency must be documented by

21 testing. And under (ii), sulfates,

22 carbonates, oxides or silicates of zinc,
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1 copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, nickel,

2 selenium and cobalt. So sorry. The motion is

3 to consider nickel to be a synthetic material.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

5 second?

6 MS. ELLOR: I will second.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. It has been

8 moved and seconded that nickel be classified

9 as a synthetic. Any discussion? Discussion

10 completed. Are we ready to vote? Any

11 recusals for conflicts? Voting will begin

12 with Wendy Fulwider. We'll stagger the

13 voting, so Wendy will go first on this vote,

14 Tina will go first on the following vote, et

15 cetera, et cetera. We'll go clockwise around

16 the room.

17 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

18 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

19 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

20 MR. WALKER: Yes.

21 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.
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1 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

2 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

3 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

4 MR. STONE: Yes.

5 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

6 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

7 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes. 14 yes, zero

9 no; motion passes. Do I have a motion on the

10 listing of nickel?

11 MR. FOSTER: Yes we do. A motion

12 to amend 205.601(j)(ii) to include nickel in

13 the list of micronutrients. It would read

14 "205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed for Use

15 in Organic Crop Production, (j), as plant or

16 soil amendments, (6), micronutrients, not to

17 be used as a defoliant, herbicide or

18 desiccant, those made from nitrates or

19 chlorides are not allowed, soil deficiency

20 must be documented by testing. (ii),

21 sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of

22 zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum,
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1 nickel, selenium and cobalt."

2 MS. ELLOR: I'll second.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, Tina has

4 seconded, it has been moved and seconded for

5 nickel to be listed with the description just

6 read into the record and on the screen right

7 now. Any discussion? Jay.

8 MR. FELDMAN: Conflict of interest

9 disclosure.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That will be taken

11 right before voting; we're in the discussion.

12 Tina.

13 MS. ELLOR: I believe I was one of

14 the positive votes for this in Crops

15 Committee, and I have since changed my mind.

16 This is a different case from other

17 micronutrients in that it is a very well known

18 epigenetic carcinogen, so I have changed my

19 opinion about this material, and will vote

20 against listing it.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

22 MS. HEINZE: Could you explain
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1 that a little bit more, because it's fairly

2 ubiquitous in nature, so I guess having read

3 the TR, it's not clear to me at that point.

4 MS. ELLOR: It is ubiquitous, the

5 forms are different, and the way it would be

6 applied would be different. And Jay might be

7 able to shed more specific light on this,

8 because this--well and also John took point on

9 this material. But I ran into this sort of

10 through a back door. I was looking at

11 epigenetics in another context, and ran across

12 this issue with it.

13 MR. FELDMAN: Well as you know--

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay.

15 MR. FELDMAN: As you know,

16 materials are classified by the federal

17 government, in this case, EPA, and this one,

18 as are other materials we've looked at as a

19 Board, such as arsenic, is classified as a

20 human--known human carcinogen. So in the TR,

21 they cite the background data on that, which

22 is captured through the ATSDR, Agency for
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1 Toxic Substance and Disease Registry, and that

2 classification is pretty clear. So it's

3 unequivocal on that issue. You know, I don't

4 know if you want me to go further into the

5 mechanisms, but we have to dig into the

6 documentation, but as you know, we're not

7 talking about anything other than the

8 technical data we've received and evaluated

9 based on the classification by EPA and ATSDR.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

11 discussion? Hearing none, any recusals for

12 conflicts? Okay, we are ready to vote, and

13 we'll start with Tina Ellor, and I note here

14 no one need recuse themselves on having an

15 opinion on whether something is synthetic or

16 a non-synthetic, so that's why that's not

17 going to get called. This yes vote is to list

18 this material. Tina, we're starting with you.

19 MS. ELLOR: No.

20 MR. MARAVELL: No.

21 MR. WALKER: No.

22 MR. FLAMM: No.
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1 MR. FELDMAN: No.

2 MR. DEMURI: No.

3 MS. TAYLOR: No.

4 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

5 MR. STONE: Yes.

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

7 MR. BONDERA: No.

8 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes. Secretary

10 Fulwider, what is our tally?

11 MS. FULWIDER: No.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy, thank you.

13 What was your vote, Wendy?

14 MS. FULWIDER: No. We have five

15 yes.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Five yes, nine no;

17 motion fails. Next up is chlorine materials

18 for sunset 2012, 205.601. Does the Crops

19 Committee have a motion?

20 MR. FOSTER: Yes, we have a motion

21 to amend the existing annotation to read:

22 "chlorine materials (calcium hypochlorite,
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1 chlorine dioxide and sodium hypochlorite) for

2 pre-harvest use, residual chlorine levels in

3 the water in direct crop contact, or as water

4 from cleaning irrigation systems applied to

5 soil must not exceed the maximum residual

6 disinfectant limit under the Safe Drinking

7 Water Act for disinfecting or sanitizing

8 equipment or tools in edible sprout

9 production. Chlorine products may be used up

10 to maximum labeled rates."

11 MR. DEMURI: I'll second.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

13 Our procedure here on this one--Nick.

14 MR. MARAVELL: I'd just like some

15 clarification from the program. There was

16 some discussion yesterday about where post

17 handling--post harvest stops being crop and

18 starts being handling, and there was some

19 discussion that guidance was going to be

20 issued on this question, and how once a crop

21 has been harvested, that it might be under

22 handling guidelines with regard to the use of
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1 chlorine. Did I understand that correctly?

2 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, there's post

3 harvest materials that are listed under 601,

4 as well as under 605. So clarification is

5 needed in this area.

6 MR. MARAVELL: And then my second

7 concern is will it be easy for farmers to know

8 that?

9 MR. MCEVOY: Well it's not easy

10 now, so once we provide that clarification, we

11 would expect it to be easier to determine what

12 is the appropriate section. Is the question

13 about this annotation change that you're

14 suggesting?

15 MR. MARAVELL: I just--I'm fine

16 with the annotation as is, what we agreed on

17 in committee. I just want to make sure that

18 farmers go through, they look at the

19 regulations, and then they're told oh, well

20 that's what it says here, but you've got to go

21 over here to see what it means over there, and

22 I just want to make sure that the program has
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1 a plan in place so that farmers will know

2 where to look and be aware of this, whether

3 it's an educational program, whether it's

4 through the certifiers, or whatever.

5 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, we certainly

6 intend to provide more information and

7 clarification on the appropriate substances

8 that can be used under both crop use, post

9 harvest handling, whether that's on the farm

10 or off the farm, that clarification will be

11 provided, and also covered during training

12 with certifiers.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay.

14 MR. FELDMAN: Can I ask the

15 program if it views this language as an

16 expansion of current uses?

17 MR. MCEVOY: Clarification of

18 current uses. We would view this as a

19 clarification of current uses. I think

20 there's a recognition that the chlorine

21 annotation that's in the National List

22 currently is challenging to understand, and so
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1 that's why we put out draft guidance in the

2 fall, to provide clarification on the use of

3 chlorine, both in chlorine materials for

4 crops, livestock and handling. Final guidance

5 is forthcoming, our final guidance aligns very

6 closely with the recommendation from the Crops

7 and Handling Committee on chlorine, the only

8 clarification we would ask for is that you

9 voted to renew chlorine for livestock in the

10 fall without an annotation change, would you

11 want the annotation change to also include the

12 re-listing of chlorine under livestock

13 materials to align with your annotation

14 changes for crops and handling?

15 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John.

17 MR. FOSTER: If the Livestock

18 Committee feels appropriate, I would be more

19 than happy to suggest in whatever way is

20 important and necessary to get the livestock

21 chlorine listing aligned with this one.

22 Procedurally, I need assistance to know how to
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1 do that. But conceptually, yes, I think

2 that's appropriate to do so.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

4 discussion? Oh, Katrina?

5 MS. HEINZE: Just a process check--

6 this is a sunset review, correct? So we need

7 to take two votes on this material?

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's right.

9 What we're considering on this first motion is

10 the annotation change; the second vote will be

11 a re-listing as is.

12 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, and the question

13 would be if you wanted to include livestock

14 with this type of an annotation change, your

15 recommendation could include "and align the

16 livestock annotation with this

17 recommendation." 

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I'm seeing a lot

19 of heads shaking no right now. Steve.

20 MR. DEMURI: I wouldn't feel

21 comfortable doing that at this meeting. Maybe

22 the next meeting, but I'd like to get that out
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1 to the public first for comment, because I

2 don't know much about it.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

4 discussion? Hearing none, seeing none, any

5 recusals for conflicts on this annotation

6 change as read? Okay. Katrina.

7 MS. HEINZE: So are we supposed to

8 declare? It has been the past practice of

9 folks who work for handlers to do kind of a

10 general, you know, we could use all of these

11 materials. Given all the discussion we've had

12 on conflict, I work for a company that makes

13 organic products in, like, virtually every

14 category. While I have no personal knowledge,

15 I'm confident that every material on this list

16 at some point somehow touches our process. Is

17 that the level of revelation that you're

18 expecting us to make? And then do I need to

19 make it for every material?

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: So noted. Once is

21 good enough.

22 MS. HEINZE: And then how does the
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1 Board expect me to execute votes based on that

2 information?

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy, you had

4 your hand raised.

5 MS. FULWIDER: I was just

6 wondering how you felt, and if I should

7 declare I work for Organic Valley. I have no

8 idea what happens in the processing part; I

9 only work with the live animals.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We'll take that as

11 a blanket declaration. Might as well work

12 through all of these. Joe Dickson.

13 MR. DICKSON: I work for a retail

14 grocery company that sells, processes or in

15 some way has an interest in every material on

16 the National List, including those being voted

17 on today.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I work for the

19 world's largest organic row crop company, and

20 we use nearly every material at some point in

21 the supply chain that is approved for use on

22 the National List. Steve.
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1 MR. DEMURI: I too work for a very

2 large company that uses, or our suppliers use,

3 probably 90% of the items on the list for

4 sunset, at least on the handling side.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

6 MS. ELLOR: I work for a farm and

7 we use some materials, not all. Chlorine

8 happens to be one that we do use in processing

9 and in sanitizing equipment, but there are

10 others, so I will approach that individually,

11 since we don't use very many of them.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And a reminder

13 from Miles this morning, whether we have a

14 direct financial stake in a, for instance,

15 chlorine materials company, would be the

16 question we were asking right now. Any other

17 declarations that members want to put on the

18 record? John, and then we'll just do this one

19 time, guys.

20 MR. FOSTER: I work for a large

21 company with many suppliers, and I'm fairly

22 certain at some point in our very extensive
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1 supply chain, every material that is up for a

2 vote is in there somewhere. Chlorine

3 specifically, we use chlorine in our

4 processing facility.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, let's

6 proceed with voting. Again, this is vote one

7 of two votes on chlorine materials; this one

8 is for the annotation change as was read into

9 the record earlier, and the voting will begin

10 with Nick.

11 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

12 MR. WALKER: Yes.

13 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

14 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

15 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

16 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

17 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

18 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

19 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

20 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

21 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy?
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1 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

2 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And I vote yes.

4 14 yes, zero no; motion passes. Materials

5 Chair Katrina Heinze, in the event an

6 annotation change during sunset vote passes on

7 the first vote, do we necessarily need to take

8 the second vote?

9 MS. HEINZE: Yes, for the reasons

10 we discussed this morning.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Do I have a

12 motion?

13 MR. FOSTER: Yes, the motion is to

14 re-list chlorine on 205.601(a) accordingly, as

15 an algicide, disinfectant and sanitizer,

16 including irrigation system cleaning systems.

17 (2), chlorine materials, except that residual

18 chlorine levels in the water shall not exceed

19 the maximum residual disinfectant limit under

20 the Safe Drinking Water Act. And then (i),

21 calcium hypochlorite, (ii), chlorine dioxide,

22 (iii), sodium hypochlorite.
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1 MS. ELLOR: I will second.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

3 Discussion sounds complete. We're ready to

4 vote.

5 MR. WALKER: Yes.

6 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

7 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

8 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

9 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

10 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

11 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

12 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

13 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

14 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

15 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

16 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

17 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And I vote yes.

19 14 yes, zero no; motion carries. Next

20 material, copper materials. Crops Committee,

21 do I have a motion?

22 MR. FOSTER: Yes. The Crops
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1 Committee recommends an annotation change to

2 the continued listing of coppers on the

3 National List. And I think it's going to be

4 up on the screen in a second. It would read--

5 it would fall under plant disease control,

6 coppers, fixed. Copper hydroxide, copper

7 oxide, copper oxychloride, includes products

8 exempted from EPA tolerance, provided that

9 copper-based materials must be used in a

10 manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil

11 and documented through periodic testing, and

12 shall not be used as herbicides. Copper

13 sulfate, substance must be used in a manner

14 that minimizes accumulation of copper in the

15 soil and documented through periodic testing.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I hear a

17 second?

18 MR. DEMURI: Second.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve DeMuri

20 seconded. Any discussion? Katrina.

21 MS. HEINZE: We had some written

22 comment, and then on Wednesday, when we
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1 discussed this, Miles made some comments

2 around why this needed to be in the annotation

3 versus through guidance, you know, that we

4 heard that a lot of people are doing this

5 already. I could use some help with that as

6 well, because the current annotation says

7 "that minimizes accumulation," so the public

8 comment we heard said that that requires that

9 folks do something to demonstrate that. This

10 seems overly prescriptive.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

12 discussion? Mac.

13 MR. STONE: Certifiers kind of do

14 that anyway, especially on perennial crops,

15 but I don't know that it hurts anything being

16 in there; it's kind of already status quo,

17 frankly.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We have a motion

19 and a second. Any more discussion? Jay.

20 MR. FELDMAN: In addition to this,

21 there was the sense of the committee--and Mac,

22 maybe you can help with this--that because of
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1 the severe, acute poisoning-type issues,

2 especially related to respiratory effects,

3 that we somehow wanted to make sure that

4 inspection dealt with worker protection5 related issues regarding this material in

6 particular. And so we had a sense of the

7 committee that we'd like, if possible, to get

8 guidance to that effect from NOP. I guess the

9 question to you, whether you would see that as

10 a feasible type of thing to ask the inspector

11 to look at; in other words, many of the labels

12 require protective--personal protective

13 equipment. Is that protective equipment on

14 site? Is that a difficult thing to verify?

15 Some of them have re-entry times back into the

16 field; are inspectors checking for that? Is

17 that a difficult thing to verify?

18 We thought that was the prudent

19 thing to do, especially since many of our

20 organizations work very closely with farm work

21 organizations, and they certainly would

22 appreciate a higher level of scrutiny around
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1 these issues.

2 MR. STONE: I mean, those are

3 valid; there is scrutiny at the inspection

4 level in auditing trails, everything from

5 manure use down to very complicated

6 operations; you might not get this far, but

7 there's no reason not to draw attention to it

8 and send the message that it's something the

9 Board thinks is important. So I mean, it's

10 fine.

11 MR. FELDMAN: Could I ask the

12 Department whether that--whether we would need

13 something formal to request that something

14 like this be done, whether it already is being

15 done; whether it could be easily incorporated

16 into any guidance manual or training,

17 whatever?

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Miles, what's the

19 most appropriate method of this request? In

20 other words, should this be an annotation, or

21 should it be something the program does with

22 enforcement?
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1 MR. MCEVOY: So the question is

2 whether or not this--the intent, or what would

3 be the effect of the annotation change to have

4 it documented through periodic testing?

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

6 MR. MCEVOY: No. I just returned,

7 sorry. 

8 MR. FOSTER: In addition to the

9 annotation, there's a sense of the committee

10 that we could be doing a little more vis-a-vis

11 inspection. Not that it's not happening, but

12 it could maybe be happening more uniformly,

13 with more rigor, to ensure compliance with

14 worker protection standards regarding

15 protective personal equipment, and enforcement

16 of label restrictions on re-entry standards.

17 That that be--that we take a higher level of

18 concern associated with training, enforcement,

19 et cetera around those issues, in particular

20 with copper because of the specific

21 associations with acute toxicity.

22 MR. MCEVOY: I think that the
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1 certifiers have a huge job to do, they're

2 doing a great job at what they're doing in

3 terms of verifying that the organic standards

4 are being met, and that in terms of worker

5 protection standards and requirements for the

6 application of worker protection equipment,

7 that's really an EPA role, working through the

8 states, and that putting that additional

9 burden on certification agencies, I think, is

10 not really appropriate, because you have other

11 agencies that are responsible for that, and

12 I'm not sure if you want to have resources

13 redirected into that area that's already

14 covered by other agencies.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

16 MS. HEINZE: I didn't properly ask

17 my question the first time. So, our sunset

18 process says that we need to look at new

19 information or an alternative. And it is not

20 clear to me why--what new information has

21 prompted this annotation change, and why it

22 could not be addressed in guidance. So I was
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1 hoping that the committee could help me

2 understand that. 

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I plan to vote no

4 on this because I think it's a burdensome

5 requirement for certifiers, and I think that

6 there's adequate language in the existing

7 listing to cover the concerns. Tina.

8 MS. ELLOR: And judging from the

9 public comments that we got on this, and

10 talking with certifiers in the audience, I'll

11 probably vote no on this as well.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

13 discussion? Okay. Any recusals for

14 conflicts? Barry, we'll start the voting with

15 you.

16 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

18 MR. DEMURI: No.

19 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

20 MS. HEINZE: No.

21 MR. STONE: Yes.

22 MR. FOSTER: No.
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1 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

2 MR. DICKSON: No.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No.

4 MS. FULWIDER: No.

5 MS. ELLOR: No.

6 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

7 MR. WALKER: No.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Madam Secretary,

9 the tally?

10 MS. FULWIDER: Six yes.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Six yes, eight no;

12 the motion fails. Crops Committee, we are now

13 addressing the material as it is currently

14 listed. Do I have a motion?

15 MR. FOSTER: Yes, to re-list

16 coppers on 205.601, Synthetic Substances

17 Allowed for Use in Organic Crop Production, as

18 follows: (i), as plant disease control, and

19 (2), coppers fixed, copper hydroxide, copper

20 oxide, copper oxychloride, includes products

21 exempted from EPA tolerance, provided that

22 copper-based materials must be used in a
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1 manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil

2 and shall not be used as herbicides. And then

3 three, copper sulfate, substance must be used

4 in a manner that minimizes accumulation of

5 copper in the soil.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

7 second?

8 MS. HEINZE: Second.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It has been moved

10 and seconded to re-list copper materials as

11 it's currently listed on the National List.

12 Any discussion? Hearing none, we'll proceed

13 with voting. Jay, the voting will start with

14 you.

15 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

16 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

17 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

18 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

19 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

20 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

21 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

2 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

3 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

4 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

5 MR. WALKER: Yes.

6 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 yes, zero no;

8 motion carries. Next material up for voting

9 is alcohols. Does the Crop Committee have a

10 motion?

11 MR. FOSTER: Yes, to re-list on

12 205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed for Use

13 in Organic Crop Production, this is without

14 annotation change, (a), as algicide

15 disinfectant and sanitizer, including

16 irrigation system cleaning systems, (1),

17 alcohols, (i), ethanol and (ii), isopropanol.

18 MS. ELLOR: I'll second.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Moved and

20 seconded; any discussion? Hearing none and

21 seeing none, we will proceed with voting.

22 Steve, the voting will start with you.
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1 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

2 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

3 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

4 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

5 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

6 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

7 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

9 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

10 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

11 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

12 MR. WALKER: Yes.

13 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

14 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 yes, zero no;

16 motion carries. Next material up for

17 consideration is newspapers, (b)(2)(i). Crops

18 Committee, do I have a motion?

19 MR. FOSTER: Yes, to re-list on

20 205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed for Use

21 in Organic Crop Production, (b), as

22 herbicides, weed barriers as applicable, (2),
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1 mulches, (i), newspaper or other recycled

2 paper without glossy or colored inks.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I hear a

4 second? Barry has seconded. Any discussion?

5 Hearing none and seeing none, we will proceed

6 with voting. Jennifer, you will be the first

7 to vote.

8 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

9 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

10 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

11 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

12 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

13 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

15 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

16 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

17 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

18 MR. WALKER: Yes.

19 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

20 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

21 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 yes, zero no;
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1 motion carries. Next up, Crops Committee, do

2 you have another listing for newspapers?

3 MR. FOSTER: I do, I was just

4 alerting myself to that fact. We have a

5 motion to re-list on 205.601, Synthetic

6 Substances Allowed for Use in Organic Crop

7 Production, (b), as herbicides, weed barriers

8 as applicable, (2), mulches, (ii), plastic

9 mulch--I'm so sorry, Madam Chair, you asked me

10 about newspapers, didn't you?

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: You're fine. Do I

12 hear a second?

13 MR. FOSTER: I didn't quite

14 finish, so--I will restate the motion. Can I

15 do that?

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Please restate the

17 motion.

18 MR. FOSTER: Thank you. To re19 list on 205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed

20 for Use in Organic Crop Production, as

21 herbicides, weed barriers as applicable, (2),

22 mulches, (ii), plastic mulch and covers,
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1 petroleum-based, other than PVC.

2 MR. STONE: Madam Chair, can I ask

3 for clarification here?

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

5 MR. STONE: Are we skipping a vote

6 and going down to plastic?

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No, we're not.

8 MR. FOSTER: My apologies. I was

9 thinking it would be sequential, and that's my

10 error. My mistake. May I rephrase the motion

11 again, please?

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Please restate the

13 motion.

14 MR. FOSTER: To re-list on

15 205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed for Use

16 in Organic Crop Production, (c), as compost

17 feed stocks, newspapers or other recycled

18 paper without glossy or colored inks.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I hear a

20 second? We have a motion and a second. Any

21 discussion? Hearing none and seeing none,

22 we're ready to vote. Katrina.
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1 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

2 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

3 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

4 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

5 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

7 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

8 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

9 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

10 MR. WALKER: Yes.

11 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

12 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

13 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

14 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 yes, zero no;

16 motion carries. I didn't ask for conflict on

17 newspaper. Anything we missed there? Okay.

18 Plastic mulch is next on our agenda. Crops

19 Committee, do you have a motion?

20 MR. FOSTER: Yes, to re-list on

21 205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed for Use

22 in Organic Crop Production, (b), as
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1 herbicides, weed barriers as applicable, (2),

2 mulches, (ii), plastic mulch and covers,

3 petroleum-based other than PVC.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

5 second?

6 MS. ELLOR: I'll second.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion on

8 plastic mulches? Any recusals for conflicts?

9 We're ready to vote. Mac.

10 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

11 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

12 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

13 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

15 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

16 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

17 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

18 MR. WALKER: Yes.

19 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

20 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

21 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

22 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.
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1 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 yes, zero no;

3 motion carries. Next up on our agenda is

4 pheromones. Crops Committee, do I have a

5 motion?

6 MR. FOSTER: We do. To amend the

7 current listing of pheromones to read "as

8 insect management, pheromones, provided they

9 are formulated with only approved inert

10 ingredients."

11 MR. BONDERA: I'll second.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour seconds.

13 Any discussion? Katrina.

14 MS. HEINZE: Well, we had quite a

15 bit of public comment on this, so it seems

16 it's worthy of some discussion. We had public

17 comment that folks wanted us to handle the

18 inerts through our inert process. I don't

19 have all the public comments summarized in my

20 head, but the general tone I got was that they

21 thought this was not necessary, and again, I

22 don't plan to vote for this because I don't
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1 understand what the new information is that is

2 requiring a change to the listing. And that

3 is our process.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve, and then

5 Jay.

6 MR. DEMURI: We talked about this

7 at length at a committee meeting last night,

8 and substantially changed the annotation from

9 what it was in the presentation on Tuesday to

10 coincide with a lot of that public comment.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay.

12 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, a little bit

13 more background to supplement what Steve just

14 said, which is correct. As you know,

15 currently the listing under list three inerts

16 restricts pheromones to passive dispensers.

17 The committee originally proposed to limit all

18 pheromones to passive dispensers. We heard

19 statements from the public, experts et cetera,

20 that that would cause undue burden given the

21 evolving technology. There was concern on the

22 environmental side that we're not adequately
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1 following the new technology and evaluating

2 the real impacts of that new technology.

3 There's a lot new in pheromones, by the way.

4 But the compromise that was worked out, since

5 the bulk of the issues around inerts -- around

6 pheromones goes to inerts, is that we would

7 just drop the passive dispensers that relate

8 to the list four inerts, which is what this

9 section applies to, and drop the additional

10 toxicants, you know, new toxicants or

11 additional toxicants, and leave it at approved

12 inerts, which effectively means the current

13 list four--well, it's not current, but the

14 list four inerts that we reference.

15 So it essentially is a status quo

16 provision with an emphasis on the inert issue.

17 It puts--it keeps the inert issue in front of

18 us, but doesn't change the effect, and you

19 might want to ask the Department about that.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

21 MS. HEINZE: I was hoping Lisa

22 could make it bigger so I could read what your
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1 change is. That was number one. And number

2 two is, currently as I read it, aren't list

3 three allowed in pheromones?

4 MR. FELDMAN: Only in passive

5 dispensers. There are two provisions, one for

6 pheromones, and then one for inert, list three

7 inerts. It's the only time we allow list

8 three inerts as a group.

9 MS. HEINZE: Yes, I just didn't

10 hear you say it, so I was confused. And then

11 why do we need this language? Because isn't

12 it true that they can only use approved

13 inerts?

14 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, it's true.

15 MS. HEINZE: So why do we need the

16 language?

17 MR. FELDMAN: It emphasizes--see,

18 because inerts are--well, yes, it's an

19 emphasis. We're learning about pheromones and

20 how dependent those formulations are in the

21 inert ingredients as volatile organic

22 chemicals, so it's a key issue. And as we've
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1 noted in the discussion, and as came up in

2 many of the statements, we will be revisiting

3 this issue as an inerts issue, as a separate

4 inerts issue.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I plan to vote no

6 on this annotation change, simply because the

7 Inerts Working Group is working on this issue,

8 and that seems to be the appropriate place to

9 keep it in front of us. Tina.

10 MS. ELLOR: I see a lot of

11 frowning and shaking of heads at the Program;

12 would they like to comment on this?

13 MR. MCEVOY: Well, it seems like

14 it's already covered by the current

15 regulations, so we don't see how this would

16 clarify anything.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Which would argue

18 for a no vote on this annotation change, I

19 guess that's what the program is arguing for

20 in that statement. Tina.

21 MS. ELLOR: Well, I wouldn't think

22 that they would argue one way or the other,
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1 but it does make it clear that they way they

2 read it is that it is a duplication on the

3 list.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Possibly some

5 unnecessary rulemaking and work for people on

6 their desks. Any more discussion? Nick.

7 MR. MARAVELL: Jay, does this

8 satisfy your concerns, the Program's statement

9 and the discussion here?

10 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I guess so.

11 MR. MARAVELL: So you would not be

12 opposed to going, re-listing as is?

13 MR. FELDMAN: If the Department

14 believes it's a redundancy, then that's fine.

15 I don't want to create extra paperwork for

16 anybody.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Would the Crops

18 Committee like to withdraw this motion?

19 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: How about the

21 person who seconded? Colehour?

22 MR. BONDERA: Yes.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, this motion

2 is off the table. Crops Committee, do I have

3 a motion on the simple re-listing of

4 pheromones?

5 MR. FOSTER: Yes, to re-list on

6 205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed for Use

7 in Organic Crop Production, (f), as insect

8 management, pheromones.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I hear a

10 second?

11 MS. ELLOR: I'll second.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

13 Any recusals for conflict? Okay. Any further

14 discussion on this pheromones re-listing?

15 Hearing none and seeing none, let's proceed

16 with voting. We'll start with John Foster.

17 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

18 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

19 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

21 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

22 MS. ELLOR: Yes.
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1 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

2 MR. WALKER: Yes.

3 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

5 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

6 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

7 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

8 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 yes, zero no;

10 motion carries. Next on our agenda is sulfur

11 dioxide, we have a request from NOSB members

12 to take a short break. Will the Crops

13 Committee please reconvene during this break

14 and prepare your document on tetracycline for

15 voting?

16 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Let's be seated in

18 10 minutes, which would be five after 10.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

20 matter went off the record at 9:55 a.m. and

21 resumed at 10:10 a.m.)

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: The next material
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1 is sulfur dioxide. Crops Committee, do you

2 have a motion?

3 MR. FOSTER: Yes, we do. The

4 motion is to re-list sulfur dioxide as

5 underground rodent control only,

6 parenthetically (smoke bombs) on

7 205.601(g)(1).

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

9 second?

10 MS. ELLOR: I'll second.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

12 Katrina?

13 MS. HEINZE: What material? I'm

14 sorry, I did not hear the motion.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sulfur dioxide.

16 Tina.

17 MS. ELLOR: This was that very

18 interesting material that through the tap, we

19 were thinking that it was inappropriately

20 listed, but AMRI kind of gave us a different

21 point of view on that, so the committee had

22 voted not to re-list it, and I have to say I
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1 have changed my mind on that, and I would like

2 to see it go back on the list.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

4 MS. HEINZE: So this wasn't

5 originally an annotation, it was just a

6 straight re-list that did not pass the

7 committee?

8 MS. ELLOR: Yes. I do believe--

9 correct me if I'm wrong, Crops Committee.

10 MS. HEINZE: Thank you for the

11 clarification.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay.

13 MR. FELDMAN: So there--this is a

14 formulated material, okay. So the issue is

15 whether we had significant--enough information

16 on all the material. I wonder if we could ask

17 for some expertise coming out of the audience,

18 because there is distinction in terms of how

19 certifiers look at and allow this product,

20 depending on the formulation, and there's

21 something regarding the different components,

22 the different elements of it.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do you have a

2 specific question we would be able to ask?

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, I think Zea

4 might be able to help with the formulation--

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Who?

6 MR. FELDMAN: Zea Sonnabend, if

7 she's here.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

9 MS. HEINZE: Just a reminder, our

10 sunset process says we need to consider if

11 there's new information, so I would ask before

12 we get additional public comment, because

13 we've had it on this material, if the Crops

14 Committee could articulate what the new

15 information is.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

17 MS. ELLOR: The new information

18 that we got through the technical review was

19 pretty profound, and what the technical review

20 was telling us was that, in fact, sulfur

21 dioxide is not the active ingredient, but it

22 is a formulated material, if I understand this
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1 correctly, that when ignited, does generate

2 sulfur dioxide. So--

3 MR. FELDMAN: Smoke.

4 MS. ELLOR: --in smoke. So you

5 know, to make that clear, you know, it's

6 possible we might need some help to see how

7 that's interpreted. But there was definitely

8 new information.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John, do you have

10 a sense for how the Crops Committee vote

11 stands as of today, since it sounds like it

12 differs from when it was taken in committee?

13 MR. FOSTER: I don't. We did not

14 cover this in last night's meeting; being

15 something that we didn't change, we didn't

16 talk about it. I do not have a sense.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. I plan to

18 vote to re-list this material. Colehour.

19 MR. BONDERA: I just, following up

20 on some of the comments about new information,

21 my sense, I guess, along the lines of what Jay

22 was saying is that it's been indicated that
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1 there is clarification to the new information

2 that Tina referred to, that might help the

3 whole Board understand the situation better so

4 that the vote is based on as much information

5 as possible.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Is there any

7 further discussion about this material?

8 Katrina.

9 MS. HEINZE: So that sounded like

10 two folks who thought we should get some

11 clarification from someone in the audience;

12 did I hear that correctly?

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We'll have to have

14 a very specific question as opposed to just

15 sort of inviting broad discussion.

16 MR. FELDMAN: The question would

17 be: what are the components of this formulated

18 product, and how have the certifiers dealt

19 with it, and have they dealt with it equally,

20 because I don't believe they have.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Zea Sonnabend,

22 would you be willing to answer that for us?
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1 MS. SONNABEND: Thank you. Zea

2 Sonnabend, CCOF. I can answer some of the

3 questions. I do believe new information was

4 presented, number one. I did not have time to

5 fully read the technical report, because it

6 wasn't posted in time for the written comment

7 period, and so I didn't read it all, so I'm

8 not positive what it says, but I do agree with

9 what Lindsey said to the extent of you could

10 consider it as a post-whatever it was

11 reaction. But I was also trying--and so you

12 do have to decide as a Board whether you think

13 it should be the individual components before

14 they explode that are on the list, or the

15 resulting smoke that is sulfur dioxide is on

16 the list.

17 The formulated products though, as

18 far as we know, all contain an igniting

19 material, which--the ones we can get in

20 California come with something called red

21 phosphorus, which is like what's on the head

22 of a match, to get the explosion to happen.
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1 And red phosphorus is listed on the label as

2 an active ingredient, and has not been

3 reviewed or petitioned, and is very unlikely

4 to be. And so therefore, we in CCOF have not

5 allowed any of these materials, so it's a moot

6 point to us whether it's on or off the list.

7 Anecdotally, we've heard that

8 other certifiers do allow them and ignore the

9 fact that this igniting agent is in them, but

10 anecdotal, I don't know for sure what other

11 certifiers do, and I think red phosphorus is

12 not the only igniting material that could

13 possibly be used. So I do think that you

14 should decide what you think about whether the

15 material is listed correctly, but then decide

16 if you also need to think about red phosphorus

17 or some of these other components. Does that

18 help?

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac.

20 MR. STONE: Representing the

21 certifiers, for the reasons that she

22 commented, we would not be in favor because of
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1 the inconsistency or the inaccuracy of the

2 annotation.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

4 MS. HEINZE: So this is a question

5 for folks more familiar with crops than I am.

6 So my understanding is this is a material that

7 is currently being used, so if the motion

8 fails, this material comes off the list, as

9 opposed to it being re-listed and giving us an

10 opportunity to address the annotation. So my

11 question for Crops is, is it true that this

12 material is being used by our farmers?

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

14 MS. ELLOR: We did have a number

15 of comments, and that's sort of, you know,

16 what we were looking for, to see if people

17 were actually using this material, and in fact

18 we had a number of comments, and I don't

19 remember the specifics of it, that people are

20 using it, yes.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John.

22 MR. FOSTER: My experience in
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1 mostly western U.S. is that it's used as part

2 of a kind of a multi-pronged approach for

3 underground rodents, for the most part.

4 Usually, when I--in my--out in the field, it

5 was with, in combination with traps and with,

6 in some cases, lots of water and not all at

7 the same time, but because a lot of those

8 varmints can be tough to deal with, it

9 generally required multiple approaches, and

10 smoke bombs are one of those, when I was out

11 on farms anyway.

12 MR. FELDMAN: California though.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Barry.

14 MR. FLAMM: John touched on it,

15 but there are alternatives, and in my own

16 personal experience, the alternatives like

17 trapping is much better. Smoke bombs have

18 very limited use, especially in pocket growth

19 or control, which would be one of the main

20 target organisms.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

22 MS. HEINZE: So if we want to keep
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1 this tool in the toolbox for the farmers, or

2 if I do, which I intend to do, I would vote

3 yes for this? I guess I would ask could the

4 Crops Committee add to their work plan

5 addressing kind of a long term fix for the

6 listing, or at least evaluating whether that's

7 necessary?

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay.

9 MR. FELDMAN: You know, this is

10 exactly the kind of situation in which our

11 community evolves, and we do get new

12 information, and we need to take it seriously.

13 I mean, you know, issues like this suggests

14 clarification of what is in a formulation,

15 which is our duty, impacts that we, you know,

16 that go to non-target effects and you know,

17 which were things that probably, or may have

18 been considered in the past. But the process

19 I would like to see in a situation like this,

20 where we are uncovering new information and

21 there is a deficiency that is supported, an

22 ongoing use that is a relatively limited use,
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1 I believe, and we are looking at other

2 materials in fact, in this docket, for rodent

3 control, like Vitamin D, that we de-list it

4 and encourage a petition be submitted and done

5 the proper way. That's not our responsibility

6 to continue something that is found to be

7 improperly reviewed. That's exactly our role,

8 to make that judgment. So I think we could

9 re-list something based on a petition on an

10 expedited--in an expedited way if there was

11 really, really serious need, and we could

12 clean up what the formulation is and an

13 evaluation of all its components.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John, and then

15 Tina.

16 MR. FOSTER: We can easily put

17 this on the work plan for the next semester.

18 I would expect there to be some interaction

19 with the Materials Committee to some extent,

20 because it's re-framing the question about

21 what constitutes--it's asking about whether we

22 mean what goes into the product, or what
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1 actually does the work of the product as

2 applied, and that's probably got consequences

3 outside of smoke bombs. Having said that, my

4 inclination would be to re-list it at the

5 moment, because my experience has shown that

6 it's not--well, my experience is that it's not

7 used as the sole control measure. It seems to

8 have been used in balance with other methods,

9 and I think by virtue of looking at the

10 material as I had mentioned a minute ago, will

11 give us focus in a reasonable amount of time

12 to effect change if we need to.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

14 MS. ELLOR: I think a couple of

15 commentors mentioned that we do have another

16 petition for rodent control coming up in front

17 of the Crops Committee, and asking if we could

18 put this back on the list until we've looked

19 at that petition and you know, I think their

20 point was we should accept that one, because

21 they see it as a better alternative. But I

22 also think that this is a very different
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1 control, and used in a very different way than

2 D3. I don't--I'm not sure that you would put

3 D3, in fact I think it would be against

4 labeling to take this out into a situation

5 where you would be using smoke bombs. And

6 Nick might be able to address that, because he

7 looked at the D3 label when we were looking at

8 that. I think they're two different--these

9 are rodent controls used in two very different

10 situations. 

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay, and then

12 Nick.

13 MR. FELDMAN: I mean, the problem

14 is the five year, you know, the five year

15 renewal, because once we vote five years,

16 it's--we can't come back to it, as we know.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick.

18 MR. MARAVELL: Well, just a

19 clarification on what Tina was--the D 3 is

20 generally used in a bait station and above

21 ground and near buildings. And so that limits

22 its use. That's how it's labeled. Whereas
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1 the smoke bombs really have to be taken to the

2 burrows and put in, you know, just shoved down

3 into the burrow and then close up as many

4 holes as you can, et cetera. So they're

5 really used in two different ways, and they

6 could be--the smoke bombs don't have to be

7 used in proximity to buildings or anything

8 like that.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Miles McEvoy.

10 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, just a point of

11 clarification. If it is re-listed, it does

12 not preclude the Board from taking this up and

13 looking at the annotation or putting a

14 different expiration date on the substance in

15 a separate review than the sunset review

16 process. You've done that on tetracycline,

17 for instance, putting an expiration date on

18 that as part of a petition. So you have broad

19 discretion to look at materials if you choose

20 to do that; you just have to make sure you

21 follow an open process, publish it in your

22 agenda, and what the proposal is and get
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1 public comment.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

3 discussion on smoke bombs for rodent control

4 being re-listed? Jay.

5 MR. FELDMAN: Just one more point.

6 What I heard Zea say is it's not allowed under

7 the CCOF certification in California, so I

8 don't think we're risking much in terms of

9 expediting a new petition on this or on some

10 other material. I think it's our

11 responsibility when we come across something

12 where we've identified new information and a

13 deficiency to bring that in line, even though

14 there may, as in the course of that having

15 happened, some people in our community may

16 have become dependent on that. It's an

17 unfortunate effect, but our job is to review

18 the material and evaluate it. And here we

19 have a situation where there are limited uses.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Miles, thank you

21 for the clarification that this Board has

22 broad discretion to revisit this. It seems to
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1 make a lot of sense to--for the Materials

2 Committee to clarify the manner in which we

3 listed this; whether we list the component

4 parts or the way they come together in usage.

5 I share Katrina's predisposition not to take

6 tools away from farmers. Any further

7 discussion? Hearing none and seeing none, any

8 recusals for conflict? Okay, we'll start with

9 the vote. Colehour.

10 MR. BONDERA: No.

11 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

13 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

14 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

15 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

16 MR. WALKER: Yes.

17 MR. FLAMM: No.

18 MR. FELDMAN: No.

19 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

20 MS. TAYLOR: No.

21 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

22 MR. STONE: No ma'am.
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1 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nine yes, five no;

3 motion fails. Smoke bombs will be removed

4 from the National List. Next up is Vitamin

5 D3. Crops Committee, do you have a motion?

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes, let me pull it

7 up. Yes, the Crops Committee recommends the

8 continued listing of Vitamin D 3 on the

9 National List 205.601(g) as rodenticides; no

10 annotation change.

11 MR. DEMURI: I'll second.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

13 Hearing none and seeing none, any recusals for

14 conflict on D3? Okay, we'll start the voting

15 with Joe Dickson.

16 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

18 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

19 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

20 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

21 MR. WALKER: Yes.

22 MR. FLAMM: Yes.
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

2 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

3 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

4 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

5 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

7 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 yes, zero no;

9 motion carries. Next up from Crops Committee

10 is streptomycin. Crops Committee, do you have

11 a motion?

12 MR. FOSTER: Yes we do have a

13 motion to make an annotation change, listing

14 streptomycin on 205.601 for fire blight

15 control in apples and pears, only for post16 inspection use until October 21, 2014.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

18 second?

19 MR. DEMURI: Second.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve DeMuri

21 seconds. Any discussion? Jay.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Last night we talked
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1 about the restriction for post-infection. Is

2 that a part of this motion?

3 MR. FOSTER: My mistake, I was

4 reading the wrong section, yes. No, I need to

5 read it correctly, it's my error.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Please restate the

7 motion.

8 MR. FOSTER: Thank you. Crops

9 Committee recommends the continued listing of

10 streptomycin with a revised annotation,

11 205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed for Use

12 in Organic Crop Production, (i), as plant

13 disease control, (10), streptomycin, for fire

14 blight control in apples and pears for post15 infection use, only until October 21, 2014.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's 11, John.

17 Can you please restate--restate the motion.

18 MR. FOSTER: Yes, perhaps I'll

19 read it off the screen, which I can read now.

20 Thank you Lisa, for making that larger. Thank

21 you. Annotation change to re-list

22 streptomycin on 205.601, (i), as plant disease
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1 control, (11), streptomycin, for fire blight

2 control in apples and pears for post-infection

3 use, only until October 21, 2014.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: The person who

5 made the second, are you still seconding this

6 motion?

7 MR. DEMURI: I'm still seconding.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Any

9 discussion? Mac.

10 MR. STONE: I'd just like to note

11 that I want to vote yes, I will vote yes for

12 this, with the concern that the eastern

13 growers, the post-infection, it'd be very

14 tricky for them to get the control because of

15 their climatic conditions. So they're going

16 to be very, very concerned about it, but glad

17 that it's on there.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

19 MS. HEINZE: So this is a sunset

20 review, correct? So we're taking two votes,

21 one on the annotation change, and one on the

22 re-listing. It is not clear to me that we can
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1 do an annotation change, since it was not

2 posted for public comment. This is really a

3 process question; I believe it's been our

4 practice in the past to try to post these

5 ahead of time.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: This is our first

7 annotation change during sunset, so I think

8 we're trying some new waters here.

9 MS. HEINZE: So I think maybe just

10 a little bit of discussion around how various

11 perspectives on the Board feel about this.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, Barry; and I

13 would also like to have read into the record

14 what the existing listing is, so we know what

15 our comparison is. Barry.

16 MR. FLAMM: Okay, this language,

17 and the idea came from the public comments,

18 and it came from growers out of the Midwest,

19 upper Midwest, and they had put together

20 groups of people and came up with this

21 suggestion. And as you know, the committee's

22 recommendation was to de-list streptomycin,
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1 but with the public comments we received, and

2 the interest, we were convinced of a

3 continuing need, but we were also convinced we

4 had to do something to move this along and

5 terminate. But the ideas in language came

6 from the public comments and in fact, we

7 pretty much borrowed that language. And so at

8 least it has a strong support from an element

9 of the organic community.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I'd like to ask a

11 question of my colleagues on the Board. How

12 many of you would be open to adding one more

13 year to tetracycline and streptomycin to let

14 some true research have a chance to take hold?

15 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

16 eight. Okay. For the record, there were--did

17 you raise your hand, Barry?

18 MR. FLAMM: I'm still thinking

19 about whether raising my hand--I'm not so much

20 of objection, but since we spent a lot of time

21 last night talking about this and going over

22 the comments, I wasn't quite ready to just
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1 throw out what we decided.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick.

3 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, I did not

4 raise my hand. I think that if there's any

5 way that the NOSB can provide a sense of

6 urgency to this issue, we should, and that's

7 my reason for not raising my hand; not because

8 I expect to get the magic bullet within the

9 time line.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve, Colehour,

11 then Jay.

12 MR. DEMURI: I think I mentioned

13 at the Crops Committee meeting last night that

14 at any time, if the Crops Committee feels like

15 there's not enough progress being made, you

16 can put a petition in to de-list it.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay.

18 MR. FELDMAN: I just want to say

19 for the record, I am so close to voting

20 against this, I can't tell you how close I am.

21 And that doesn't feel good, because I feel

22 like we're developing a reasonable
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1 collaboration for moving forward with growers

2 and consumer interests, and I can go back to

3 consumer groups and say see the urgency that

4 the NOSB is bringing to this issue. So I'm

5 echoing what you're saying, Nick. Having said

6 that, I really think that we do need to come

7 up with a plan for getting in place a task

8 force that encourages our community to

9 continue the kind of dialogue and discussion

10 that was really good in this room about what

11 the needs are on the one side, and what the

12 expectations are on the other, and work this

13 out together. That's why we call ourselves a

14 community. So I think we have--and we talked

15 about this last night, and we came up with

16 this concept of a transition plan, or the idea

17 that we are--we all do believe we need to

18 transition away from this. I don't think

19 anybody is saying we shouldn't be doing it.

20 So I'm looking for not shortening

21 this thing, but I'm looking for the Board's

22 guidance in how we can ensure that the urgency
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1 that I feel around the table and the sense in

2 the audience or in our community that we do

3 this, and I would like to suggest that we do

4 develop a task force, and that we bring

5 together growers and researchers and consumers

6 and farmers and nail this thing down fast,

7 like really, let's get together, start next

8 month, and get this going.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour.

10 MR. BONDERA: Yes, I think that

11 it's possible that what I wanted to say has

12 already been alluded to at least, which is

13 that, you know, we did in our meeting last

14 night directly associate the tetracycline and

15 the streptomycin, and the time frame that we

16 chose was specifically related to--agreed

17 upon, given that we would be able to see not

18 conclusions, but at least some action on

19 addressing these issues by that time frame.

20 Things will have started, not that research

21 will have been completed or anything like that

22 necessarily, but action will have gotten
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1 going. And for that reason, I think, you

2 know, longer time doesn't help do anything

3 except for say that we don't need to see

4 action until that time frame, because we're

5 not looking for one way or another, but we're

6 looking for some things to be moved on.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John.

8 MR. FOSTER: So it sounds like we

9 had a really long meeting last night, because

10 there's a lot of references to it, and you'd

11 be right. It was long, and we're not done

12 yet. I do, Jay, as we talked about, I've been

13 writing down some specific steps relative to

14 work plan items for this next semester or

15 term, I guess, along these lines. And as I

16 keep hearing them, we'll add those to the

17 list. Having said that, I would still be open

18 to a year extension, because I feel very

19 confident that the whole community gets the

20 message.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I would also add

22 that for brand new NOSB members, 2014 seems
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1 really far off, but in NOSB time, it's going

2 to be the blink of an eye that people are

3 right back in the room. It seems that if a

4 respectful and firm request was made to the

5 community to update this Board at each and

6 every meeting, and that we really did give

7 folks enough time to work so they weren't

8 spending all their time terrorized at not

9 having options, then we could strike a

10 compromise that would give farmers motivation

11 to support research, yet not be terrorized at

12 losing their orchards. Miles.

13 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, I think that

14 because of the huge impact of these materials,

15 and the discussion at the Board that the

16 program is going to take some action to try to

17 facilitate more research in this area, we'll

18 send a letter to ARS Organic Coordinator to

19 tell them of the importance of this particular

20 topic, and also to the Organic Research and

21 Education Initiative to copy both of those

22 programs to see if we can get some dedicated
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1 research on this as quickly as possible so

2 there can be alternatives developed as quickly

3 as possible.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

5 MS. HEINZE: I thank the Crops

6 Committee for the discussion. I understand

7 the rationale for the 2014. My concern is the

8 post-infection use; that's an annotation that

9 the public has not had an opportunity to

10 comment on. I got that we've gotten some

11 comment from the people in this room, but as

12 we've heard from all sides of the spectrum,

13 they're not all our public, and I would just

14 urge caution on doing annotations that affect

15 the list without that due process, and that

16 this is the first meeting that we've allowed

17 annotation changes during sunset, and we have

18 to be very cautions, because we do not

19 understand the consequences.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Lisa, can you

21 please put on the Board the existing listing

22 for streptomycin so we can read that into the
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1 record; then Mac and Nick.

2 MR. STONE: Madame Chair, Matthew

3 Grieshop, the researcher from Michigan State

4 is in the audience that addressed this for us

5 yesterday; I don't know if maybe he could

6 address the post-infection aspect of this for

7 us.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I think that's

9 reasonable. Let's look at the existing

10 listing for streptomycin first, and hear from

11 Nick.

12 MR. MARAVELL: Katrina, would you

13 be willing to support 2014 on streptomycin if

14 we took away pursuant to hearing from the

15 research community post-infection restriction?

16 MS. HEINZE: While, I would

17 understand your rationale; I did not vote for

18 that on tetracycline; so no, I could not

19 support it on strep. But I do very much

20 understand the rationale. So in spirit, yes

21 I support you, but I couldn't vote for it.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Why not? Why
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1 can't you vote for it?

2 MS. HEINZE: I didn't agree with

3 it on tet, so why would I agree with it on

4 strep?

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. I'd like to

6 take another straw poll on how many Board

7 members would be open to striking for post8 infection and changing the date to 2015.

9 MS. HEINZE: Can I take that back?

10 Tet was a petition; this is a sunset. I don't

11 know. Let me think about it.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Are any Board

13 members interested in making these edits? And

14 you know, there's no--this is not a vote. I

15 saw Steve.

16 MR. MARAVELL: I could make one,

17 but not the other. Would it help the Board to

18 hear from the research community on the post19 infection issue? If it does, I think we

20 should hear from--

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. This needs

22 to be the exception today rather than our
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1 normal course of action. We did spend two

2 days hearing public testimony. Very quickly

3 though, Matthew from Michigan, would you be

4 willing to approach the podium and address the

5 question of post-infection treatment?

6 MR. GRIESHOP: I'd like to thank

7 the Board for giving me a chance to speak for

8 my growers, and the growers in the Northeast

9 and Southeast. I have a couple of concerns

10 with post-infection period as a researcher.

11 The first would be the definition of post12 infection. So are you talking about after

13 fire blight symptoms are present? If that's

14 the case, then it's too late. I mean, the

15 product has lost its efficacy. If you're

16 talking about within a limited time after a

17 computer-predicted infection event, you still

18 will get some efficacy from streptomycin, but

19 it will be significantly reduced, and that's

20 pretty well supported through research, some

21 of which conducted at Michigan State by my

22 colleague, George Sundin.
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1 Another concern that I would have,

2 and this would be more along the lines of

3 policy, is just thinking about it from a

4 grower's perspective, and I do a little hobby

5 farming, is that if you tell me that hey, you

6 can apply tetracycline pre-infection, but you

7 can only apply steptomycin post-infection, my

8 logical course of action, if I'm worried about

9 saving my orchard is I'll do both of those

10 things. I'll apply tetracycline pre-infection

11 or infection period, and I'll apply

12 streptomycin post-infection period. So what

13 you'll essentially be doing for the East Coast

14 is potentially doubling application of

15 antibiotics to the orchard. If we can apply

16 streptomycin before infection, there's no

17 reason to apply tetracycline.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Crops

19 Committee, does that answer your questions

20 about potential unintended affects of this

21 annotation change that wasn't floated to the

22 public? Jay.
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1 MR. FELDMAN: The annotation

2 change came to us through the public comment

3 period, so I'm curious as to what--why--what

4 you think of this statement, which came to us

5 from the Organic Tree Fruit Association and

6 the Commissioner--is it the Commissioner of

7 Agriculture? Or the Director of Agriculture

8 from the State of Minnesota. The Organic Tree

9 Fruit Association requests an annotation to

10 the current rule to limit the use of

11 antibiotics to post-infection use only. We

12 would like this limited use to be allowed for13 -they originally said five years, and they

14 agreed to the 2014 date--while growers learn

15 to use the new protecting products and begin

16 planting the field immune root stocks.

17 MR. GRIESHOP: Right.

18 MR. FELDMAN: So is there

19 something different that these Midwest growers

20 are experiencing?

21 MR. GRIESHOP: Well, the

22 Midwestern growers are using streptomycin, so
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1 their concern is really the streptomycin.

2 They're not using oxytetracycline at this

3 point, except in very rare instances. We have

4 two pockets of resistance in Michigan that are

5 very small, and there are no organic growers

6 there. So I think their focus was on

7 maintaining streptomycin for the next several

8 years at least to preserve their orchards, and

9 my interpretation of when they say infection

10 period, or when they say infection, my

11 interpretation would be a computer-predicted

12 infection period, because again, and I think

13 you've heard this from all sides, once you

14 have fire blight symptoms two or three weeks

15 after an infection period, it's too late.

16 Yes.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes, this

18 testimony from our public, we need to wrap it

19 up and go back to Committee, go back to Board

20 discussion. One last question for Matthew.

21 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, this is

22 similar to what we heard yesterday, and the
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1 other issue, I mean the line between what is

2 post-infection is actually a preventative

3 spray, and we sort of heard that yesterday,

4 and I tried to make that somewhat clear

5 without putting words in anybody's mouth.

6 And also the reference to immune root stock I

7 think is probably layman's terms as opposed to

8 research terms, because I'm not sure--and if

9 you correct me--that there is such a thing as

10 root stock which provides immunity to fire

11 blight.

12 MR. GRIESHOP: May I answer the

13 question? So as I stated yesterday in my

14 testimony, if you think about--when you look--

15 I'll have to get a little sciency, Miss. If

16 you think about an apple tree, it's really two

17 trees. You have root stock, and you have the

18 fruiting one that's grafted on top of that

19 tree. All fruiting woods, with the exception

20 of a transgenic variety developed at Ohio

21 State University, which will never be organic,

22 are not, they are not completely resistant to
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1 fire blight. So the Geneva strains that were

2 developed at New York are resistant to fire

3 blight, but that's just the root stock. So if

4 you have a susceptible on top of that, what

5 essentially will happen is it will kill it,

6 all the way down to the root stock, and you're

7 faced with an even worse problem, because then

8 you need to top graft; when you top graft, you

9 get a lot of vigor, as we discussed yesterday.

10 Vigor sets up a good environment for fire

11 blight, and you know, you're going to cash

12 out, or the farmer will cash out. I don't

13 know if any of you all are apple growers.

14 Does that answer your question sufficiently?

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

16 MR. GRIESHOP: All right. Thank

17 you very much for this opportunity.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure. Okay so a

19 reminder we have a motion on the table, and a

20 second for an annotation change during sunset

21 to streptomycin that has been proposed and was

22 not posted to regulations.gov. Any more
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1 discussion? Steve.

2 MR. DEMURI: Last night I did vote

3 for the annotation that is before us now, but

4 having heard the researcher and discussion

5 here, I would be willing to agree to removing

6 that part of the annotation, and make that

7 part of the task force to ferret that out.

8 What I said was that I would be willing to

9 remove that part of the annotation for post10 infection use, based on what I just heard, and

11 make that part of the process that the task

12 force will examine.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick, I see you

14 nodding your head; are you also open to

15 removing that?

16 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, the post17 infection, because it's so difficult to

18 determine. But I would still like to keep the

19 2014 and bring that sense of urgency to the

20 grower and the research community.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, Barry.

22 MR. FLAMM: To me, this is a key
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1 part of our making a strong step forward and

2 I would have a hard time supporting it at all

3 without this included in it, and I would have

4 to vote against the re-listing of the

5 material.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I think we need to

7 do a straw poll here, and figure this out.

8 Keep it 2014 and remove post-infection, how

9 many?

10 MR. FLAMM: Could I--

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Did you have a--

12 were you still--

13 MR. FLAMM: I really think we've

14 got a motion on the floor, and I think we

15 ought to vote on that, and if you want an

16 amendment to it, that's the way to proceed,

17 rather than doing a straw vote. I think this

18 is really not proper procedure.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure. That's also

20 okay, and somebody can make that friendly

21 amendment, or propose an amendment. Yes,

22 another motion, sorry. Barry, were you
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1 calling for the question? I didn't hear that

2 in there.

3 MR. FLAMM: I'll call for the

4 question.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any recusals for

6 conflict?

7 MS. ELLOR: Can I have a

8 clarification?

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

10 MS. ELLOR: So what we're voting

11 on now is the motion as it was proposed, post12 infection only until 2014. If this motion is

13 defeated, then we'll go on to either make

14 another motion, or to re-list it as it's

15 currently listed; is that correct?

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's right.

17 That could be done right now; this motion

18 could be defeated, and another motion put

19 forth. Katrina, could that be done prior to

20 the vote to re-list the material that's listed

21 right now?

22 MS. HEINZE: I would defer to our
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1 Parliamentarian. Once the question is called,

2 can there be a motion to amend the motion? I

3 know we've done that before. That's not the

4 right wording.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I was asking a

6 different question. In our sunset change

7 during annotation procedures, we have it set

8 up as a two vote procedure. What I was asking

9 is, could there be an additional proposed

10 annotation change during sunset, prior to the

11 re-listing of the original material?

12 MS. HEINZE: I don't know, Barry;

13 what do you think? It's--you guys had all the

14 discussion in the Policy Committee.

15 MR. FLAMM: I believe--and I may

16 be wrong--but if this--if the motion fails

17 that's on the table, and another motion is, I

18 think should follow before we vote on a

19 listing or de-listing. I think that's right.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

21 MR. FLAMM: If it fails.

22 MS. HEINZE: I don't disagree with
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1 your conclusion. I think it's probably

2 something that we'll have to clarify as we

3 continue to work through the sunset process.

4 But that seems reasonable to me.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, so we've

6 heard from our Materials Chair and our Policy

7 Committee chair that it would be appropriate,

8 if this motion fails, to--for another motion

9 to be proposed with a different annotation

10 change for the material. Colehour.

11 MR. BONDERA: I just--I'm not

12 sure, but it was unclear, and I'm wondering,

13 it seems like the program had some comments on

14 this, and I'd like you to give them a chance

15 to respond to it as well.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Lisa.

17 MS. BRINES: Lisa Brines for the

18 Program. So we have had a call for the

19 question, which would end debate and cause a

20 vote for this, the motion that's on the table.

21 However, that call for the question has not

22 yet been seconded. So that--at this point in
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1 time, you don't need to vote until that has

2 been seconded, and then approved by two-thirds

3 of the Board.

4 MR. FELDMAN: Second.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: The motion has

6 been seconded. Any recusals for conflict?

7 Okay, hearing none, let's proceed with voting,

8 and we'll start with Wendy Fulwider. Sure.

9 There's been a call for a restating of the

10 motion to alleviate any confusion in the

11 intervening discussion here. The motion on

12 the floor--I'm sorry Lisa, you're raising your

13 hand.

14 MS. BRINES: Just to clarify, so

15 the first vote is going to be required two16 thirds vote to end debate, and to allow the

17 Board the opportunity to vote on this motion.

18 So, you first need to vote to end debate and

19 force the vote on the current motion as it's

20 listed on the screen. So there's two votes;

21 one to--I'm not sure if that was clear.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, by calling
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1 for the question, then, the motion on the

2 floor is a motion to end debate. Let's

3 proceed with--and it has been seconded. Let's

4 proceed with voting on the motion to end

5 debate on this annotation change for

6 streptomycin. Wendy, we'll start with you.

7 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

8 MS. ELLOR: Yes, to end the

9 debate.

10 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

11 MR. WALKER: Yes.

12 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

13 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

14 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

15 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

16 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

17 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

18 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

19 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

20 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes. We've ended

22 debate, and we will now proceed with voting on
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1 the motion, and I'm going to restate it now.

2 The motion is to change the annotation for the

3 listing of streptomycin to read "as plant

4 disease control, (i)11, streptomycin for fire

5 blight control in apples and pears for post6 infection use, only until October 21, 2014.

7 Voting will start with Tina.

8 MS. ELLOR: No.

9 MR. MARAVELL: No.

10 MR. WALKER: No.

11 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

12 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

13 MR. DEMURI: No.

14 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

15 MS. HEINZE: No.

16 MR. STONE: No.

17 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

18 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

19 MR. DICKSON: No.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No.

21 MS. FULWIDER: No.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Five yes, nine no;
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1 motion fails. Crops Committee, would you like

2 to propose a motion on annotation change

3 during sunset for streptomycin?

4 MR. FOSTER: I don't think it

5 would be in anyone's best interest for me to

6 do that at this moment, I'm not clear; so if--

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's open for any

8 member of the NOSB to propose a motion.

9 MR. FOSTER: --if another member

10 could do so, that would be appreciated by--

11 MR. MARAVELL: I will make a

12 motion.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick, please

14 proceed.

15 MR. MARAVELL: I don't know if I

16 can read behind my back here. I would make

17 the motion to re-list--can I just start at

18 (i), as plant disease control, streptomycin

19 for fire blight control in apples and pears

20 only until October 21, 2014.

21 MS. ELLOR: And I will second.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?
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1 Hearing none and seeing none, we'll proceed

2 with voting. Voting will start with Nick

3 Maravell. Oh, is it with Tina? 

4 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

5 MR. WALKER: Yes.

6 MS. TAYLOR: It's unclear to me--

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Please speak up,

8 Ms. Taylor.

9 MS. TAYLOR: --exactly are we

10 voting on. What are we voting on with this

11 vote?

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We're voting on an

13 annotation change for the material

14 streptomycin; there will still be a vote for

15 the material as is after--yes. Okay, sorry

16 for the interruption. We're going to go ahead

17 and start the voting again, and we're going to

18 start with Nick.

19 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

20 MR. WALKER: Yes.

21 MR. FLAMM: A very disappointed

22 yes.
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Ditto, yes.

2 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

3 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

4 MS. HEINZE: No.

5 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

7 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

8 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

10 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

11 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: One no; 13 yes;

13 motion carries. As part of our sunset re14 listing procedure, we will now proceed with a

15 vote, or with a motion, please, on the

16 existing material streptomycin. Is there a

17 motion from the floor?

18 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, to re-list on

19 205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed for Use

20 in Organic Crop Production, (i) as plant

21 disease control, (10), streptomycin, for fire

22 blight control in apples and pears only.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I hear a

2 second? 

3 MR. BONDERA: Second.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We have a motion

5 and a second; any discussion? All right,

6 we'll proceed with voting. Reuben.

7 MR. WALKER: Yes.

8 MR. FLAMM: No.

9 MR. FELDMAN: No.

10 MR. DEMURI: No.

11 MS. TAYLOR: No.

12 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

13 MR. STONE: I'm confused.

14 MR. MARAVELL: I think there may

15 be some confusion here, Madame Chair.

16 MR. STONE: I want to continue

17 strepto--

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Time it.

19 MR. STONE: Okay.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I need to check in

21 with our Parliamentarian whether we can stop

22 in the middle of voting like this. Lisa, can
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1 we pause for any clarification on voting

2 procedures?

3 MS. BRINES: I'm unclear at this

4 time. I think if it's a clarification

5 question on what you're voting on, it would be

6 appropriate to get that clarity.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Please

8 state your question, Mac.

9 MR. STONE: My question is, if I

10 vote yes to put streptomycin on the list, it

11 is with the previous voted annotation; is that

12 correct?

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I'll let Katrina

14 Heinze, Materials Chair, weigh in.

15 MS. HEINZE: So this is part of

16 our changing annotation during sunset process.

17 The reason for this second vote is that the

18 annotation change could be material in the

19 docket. So the annotation change just passed;

20 that requires that the Program take that and

21 work it through. However, it could case a

22 delay in the sunset docket, so our changing
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1 annotation during the sunset process policy

2 created a second vote as a back up plan. I

3 wish we had had this before we voted. If this

4 motion fails, and they need--they do not have

5 anything to put in the sunset docket for

6 strep, and--I don't know. Miles, you

7 articulated this very well when we had this

8 clarification at the beginning; perhaps you

9 could discuss it. This is a back up vote to

10 give the Program time to get the annotation

11 through.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Would any NOSB

13 members re-cast their vote now that this

14 clarification has been made? Shall we--I

15 believe we should vote again now that the

16 clarification has been made. Is this only

17 related to clarification of the motion? Yes.

18 Jay.

19 MR. FELDMAN: I think Katrina

20 stated it successfully, that we didn't want to

21 create disruption by inadvertently passing an

22 annotation that could not be processed in a
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1 time frame, in a timely way to enable

2 continuity, right, loss of access. That was

3 the intent, and I think we're in a very

4 special situation here, that--

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: All right. Let's

6 --okay. We're going to re-cast votes now that

7 we have this clarification, and we're going to

8 start the voting again on the same motion that

9 is on the table now that--Katrina.

10 MS. HEINZE: I'm sorry. I just

11 want to make sure, this is the first time

12 we've ever worked through this. Before we

13 start the votes, could you ask if anyone has

14 any questions.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Does anyone have

16 any questions about strictly the clarification

17 of voting procedures, and not on the motion

18 itself? Seeing none, hearing none--Colehour.

19 MR. BONDERA: For the sake of

20 clarity, I would appreciate it if we would

21 allow it to be restated by Miles before we

22 vote again.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: What do you want

2 restated?

3 MR. BONDERA: Sorry, the process

4 which Katrina referred to that Miles did refer

5 to earlier about the complexity if--the back

6 up process of the two votes essentially, since

7 this is like you said, the first time we've

8 done this this way, with an annotation change

9 for sunset material.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Miles, would you

11 be willing to weigh in on this for--

12 MR. MCEVOY: Yes. Our

13 understanding of your first vote was to re14 list streptomycin with the annotation change,

15 so that we would go forward with the sunset

16 2012, with a proposed rule that would re-list

17 streptomycin with the approved annotation

18 change. This vote would be just to re-list

19 streptomycin without an annotation change, so

20 that if we ran into technical difficulties or

21 other issues during the process of doing the

22 proposed and final rule that we couldn't make
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1 those annotation changes, then streptomycin

2 would be potentially listed if you approved it

3 for re-listing without the annotation changes.

4 So the first one is to relist it

5 with the annotation change; the second vote

6 that you haven't taken yet would be to re-list

7 with no annotation changes.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. We're going

9 to go ahead and--Barry.

10 MR. FLAMM: One more point of

11 clarification to Miles. If it's just a delay

12 and this gets carried forward, I'm not

13 troubled so much by delay, and then that go in

14 effect, and we have a method of continuing

15 use. But if it's something that an annotation

16 doesn't get approved, then that changes it

17 completely for me. You see the difference?

18 If it's just a time delay, and we need--you

19 need more time to get it done, that's one

20 thing. But if it's the situation which it

21 isn't approved and streptomycin just goes back

22 on the list like it is now.
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1 MS. BAILEY: Melissa Bailey, NOP.

2 So I think what you're asking, Barry, is if--

3 okay, if we did it with the annotation change

4 in sunset, and there was a delay, that we

5 would--are you asking--or would we still

6 pursue the annotation change through a

7 different mechanism, and we'd have to do

8 something else in the sunset docket to address

9 streptomycin; is that the question?

10 MR. FLAMM: Not exactly. I think

11 if it's just delayed, and it's going to take

12 six months more or even a year more to get

13 through, but this annotation becomes the rule,

14 I'm okay with it. But if it's--if the

15 suggestion is overruled, let's say in OMB, you

16 know, it doesn't get through the process, and

17 it's killed, then I have trouble with just

18 falling back on what we have now.

19 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, we have to move

20 forward with the sunset docket, so we'll be

21 moving forward with any of the substances that

22 you want to have re-listed, and those that you
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1 want annotation changes would be included in

2 that process. So I'm not sure if I understand

3 your question, Barry.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes. Steve.

5 MR. DEMURI: I think what he's

6 saying is his concern, and something I thought

7 about too, which is why I voted no, is that if

8 OMB was to kill it, then streptomycin would be

9 back on the list for five years, until the

10 next sunset, unless we petition it, which I

11 think we would have to reserve as an option.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

13 MS. HEINZE: The other side of

14 that argument is if OMB kills it, and we don't

15 have the second vote, then it comes off the

16 list in 2011. Thank you. So that, I mean

17 that's the crux of what people are voting for,

18 is do you want it off in 2012, or do you want

19 it off in whatever that other date was, five

20 years from then? If the annotation change

21 gets mucked up in rulemaking.

22 MS. BAILEY: Melissa Bailey, NOP.
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1 So if we move forward the sunset docket with

2 the annotation change as voted, and there was

3 some problem and had to pull it out, the fate

4 of streptomycin would depend on your second

5 vote, which as I understand there is a motion

6 on the table for. And if the motion failed,

7 then at that point streptomycin would come off

8 the list. Is that--does that clarify? If the

9 motion passes, then we would default to that

10 re-listing as it currently stands in the rule

11 as part of the sunset.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more questions

13 from NOSB? Joe Dickson.

14 MR. DICKSON: For absolute safety

15 here, I just want to confirm with the new

16 members of the Board that everyone understands

17 this policy and its structure, and any

18 questions--I just to confirm with new members

19 of the Board that they understand this policy,

20 and don't have any remaining questions about

21 it.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: All right, we're
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1 going to vote again, then, now that we've had

2 these various clarifications, and Melissa's

3 last statement really summed it up nicely. We

4 have voted on a annotation change during

5 sunset; that is the go forward motion that the

6 Program will be working on. If it fails, then

7 the Program will default to the vote that

8 we're taking right now. And just so you know

9 the effect of the vote that we're about to

10 take right now, a yes vote would reup this

11 material to 2017 as is; a no vote would cause

12 the material to drop off in 2012. Okay.

13 We'll start the voting, and please remind me

14 who we're starting with.

15 MR. WALKER: Yes.

16 MR. FLAMM: No.

17 MR. FELDMAN: No.

18 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

19 MS. TAYLOR: No.

20 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

21 MR. STONE: Yes.

22 MR. FOSTER: Yes.
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1 MR. BONDERA: No.

2 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy.

4 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

5 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

6 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And the Chair

8 votes yes. Four no, 10 yes; motion carries.

9 Crops Committee, the next material up for

10 voting is lignin sulfonate. Do I have a

11 motion?

12 MR. FOSTER: Let me scroll to that

13 particular document. I have--Lisa, there you

14 go. Thank you. Madam Chairman, I see now

15 that the language is not perfect here. If

16 you'd like I can defer this until later, until

17 I can re-write it. The intent is accurate,

18 but the language is not precise.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, we'll skip

20 that item and move on to--shall we skip the

21 other lignin sulfonate as well?

22 MR. FOSTER: No, I believe we can
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1 go through with that. That was not modified

2 last night.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a motion

4 on lignin sulfonate that's listed as (j)(4) on

5 our voting sheet?

6 MR. FOSTER: We do have a motion

7 to amend the annotation for lignin sulfonate

8 on 205.601(j)(4), to read "a chelating agent

9 and dust suppressant."

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

11 second?

12 MS. ELLOR: I'll second.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

14 Tina.

15 MS. ELLOR: It came up in

16 Committee that this may be a duplicate

17 listing, and we couldn't think of any

18 application, nor did we hear any public

19 comment that there's actually a use for this

20 as a floatation agent under the first listing,

21 as plant or soil amendments. We couldn't

22 imagine, you know, why the floatation agent
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1 part was in there, and we thought that it was

2 a duplicate listing, so we elected to take it

3 off to try and straighten it out.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Is that

5 clarification the sole purpose of the

6 annotation change?

7 MS. ELLOR: That annotation

8 change, yes.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: What was the Crops

10 Committee vote on this material with

11 annotation change?

12 MR. FOSTER: The vote was five yes

13 and two absent.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

15 discussion? Katrina.

16 MS. HEINZE: Did we have any

17 public comment opposing this recommendation?

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

19 MS. ELLOR: No, we did not.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

21 discussion? John.

22 MR. FOSTER: Just want to point
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1 out that the subsection (j) is Materials for

2 Use as Plant or Soil Amendments, and so the

3 specific annotation that includes, in this

4 particular listing, as a flotation aid, that's

5 why it appears to be not applicable, so we

6 opted to get rid of it. Because in the

7 context of being a plant or soil amendment, it

8 is not also a flotation aid.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

10 discussion? All right, we'll start the

11 voting. Actually, let me call for any

12 recusals. Okay. Barry, please start the

13 voting.

14 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

15 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

16 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

17 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

18 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

19 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

20 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

21 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

2 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

3 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

4 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

5 MR. WALKER: Yes.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 yes, zero no;

7 motion carries. Crops Committee, do you have

8 a motion on this material to re-list the

9 existing material as is?

10 MR. FOSTER: I'm sorry, are we

11 back on--what is the material at question

12 here?

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Lignin sulfonate,

14 (j)(4), and as part of our sunset process, we

15 need to vote on the material as is as well.

16 MR. FOSTER: Yes, thank you.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any motion from

18 the floor on this?

19 MR. FOSTER: Yes, I have it here.

20 To re-list on 205.601, Synthetic Substances

21 Allowed For Use In Organic Crop Production,

22 (j)(4), as plant or soil amendments, lignin
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1 sulfonate, chelating agent, dust suppressant,

2 flotation agent.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

4 second?

5 MR. MARAVELL: Second.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

7 Hearing none, seeing none, let's vote.

8 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

9 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

10 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

11 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

12 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

13 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

14 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

15 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

17 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

18 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

19 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

20 MR. WALKER: Yes.

21 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 yes, zero no;
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1 motion carries. Next material on our agenda

2 for voting is magnesium sulfate. Crops

3 Committee, do you have a motion?

4 MR. FOSTER: Yes. We recommend

5 the re-listing of magnesium sulfate, allowed

6 with a documented soil deficiency as a soil

7 amendment.

8 MS. ELLOR: I will second.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

10 Tina.

11 MS. ELLOR: This is one that we

12 took back to Committee last night I believe,

13 and changed our original vote from a

14 recommendation to not re-list to a

15 recommendation to re-list, based on

16 information we received during public comment.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Any

18 further discussions? Hearing none and seeing

19 none, let's vote. Steve, we'll start with

20 you.

21 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

22 MS. TAYLOR: No.
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1 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

2 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

3 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

4 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

5 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

7 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

8 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

9 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

10 MR. WALKER: Yes.

11 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

12 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's one no, 13

14 yes; motion carries. Next material on our

15 agenda for voting is ethylene gas. Crops

16 Committee, do you have a motion? Is there a

17 motion I should say?

18 MR. FOSTER: Yes, to re-list

19 ethylene gas for regulation of pineapple

20 flowering on 605.601(k)--I'm sorry,

21 205.601(k).

22 MS. ELLOR: I'll second.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

2 Tina.

3 MS. ELLOR: Sorry. This is

4 something that I subsequently changed my mind

5 on after hearing public testimony. I don't

6 believe we brought it back to Committee last

7 night; I could be wrong, it was really late,

8 but I--okay. Apparently I was sleeping, but

9 I did change my opinion about this material,

10 and would like to see it stay on the list.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

12 discussion? Jay.

13 MR. FELDMAN: This is a situation

14 where the material got ahead of the process I

15 believe. Just for the record, I just want to

16 say this. It's--an industry was created

17 around this material, with an approach that is

18 typical of conventional agriculture, which

19 expects uniform ripening and tools of

20 production that are not necessarily good for

21 the environment, but good for the scale of

22 production. We can't grow everything, I don't
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1 believe, under the organic system, with a

2 method of agriculture that is wholly reliant

3 on a tool like this. At that point, we're

4 faced, as John raised early on in this

5 discussion, we're faced with an issue of

6 scale, and whether this product can be grown

7 in this way with this material, and only with

8 this material. We face this, by the way, we

9 face this in other points of history. Alar,

10 some of you may remember way back, very

11 similar kind of thing, a uniform ripening, but

12 it happened to be hazardous, and so hazardous

13 that it didn't even meet the standards in

14 conventional agriculture ultimately.

15 But in this case, I believe, and

16 many of us believe that it would change the

17 method of production. Yes, it might be a

18 little more labor intensive perhaps; it might

19 not be as efficient an operation perhaps, but

20 it would meet the basic principles of organic

21 production. So, thank you. Add this

22 chemical.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Jay. I

2 think a million pounds of ice per acre or

3 hectare was very significant, not--

4 MR. FELDMAN: That's only to

5 effect uniform ripening. I'm saying--

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's right.

7 MR. FELDMAN: --we can grow this

8 crop without uniform ripening.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure. You know,

10 we would need to change the entire

11 distribution system carrying a pineapple or

12 two at a time, as opposed to filling

13 containers.

14 MR. FELDMAN: We do it in Haiti

15 for mangoes. It can be done.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina and then

17 Jennifer.

18 MS. HEINZE: Just a reminder that

19 our sunset review process says that when new

20 information comes to the Board, that is

21 different, new to information considered by

22 the prior Board, we re-evaluate the listing
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1 and, and when an alternative exists. I think

2 Julie Weisman, a former member of this Board,

3 articulated this very well. It is a

4 longstanding practice and in our policy that

5 we uphold prior decisions of the Board unless

6 there is new information.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

8 discussion? Nick.

9 MR. MARAVELL: Well, just in

10 defense of what the Committee did, we did feel

11 we had new information; there were some

12 alternatives; they may not be viable

13 alternatives, and Jay has pointed out to an

14 alternative that is not specific to the

15 pineapple, but from Haiti and mangoes that

16 might be a way to address some of the economic

17 issues. So we did consider some new

18 information; that isn't to say that was enough

19 to not re-list ethylene.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jennifer.

21 MS. TAYLOR: I believe that the

22 consumers and public would not be supportive
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1 of the practice, given the opportunity to know

2 that it takes place.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Barry.

4 MR. FLAMM: Just for the record,

5 this is what our policy and procedure manual

6 now says. It was revised, and I think some of

7 the information is outdated. It says "the

8 review is conducted on a force of evidence as

9 presented by Board members, public comments,

10 and scientific data from other sources. This

11 includes the original recommendation the Board

12 lists." The original--that information is

13 used, but it's not necessarily the determining

14 factor; all those things are used. And it

15 goes on to say "the Committee may request

16 third-party technical reviews," which we have

17 done in just about every case, and sometimes

18 we didn't get it.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

20 MS. HEINZE: I agree. There are

21 also two Board recommendations on sunset that

22 supplement what's in the policy manual. My
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1 question for the Crops Committee is did the

2 original Board consider the alternate method,

3 Jay, that you talked about with the non4 uniform ripening? Was that considered by the

5 Board as a method, and did they--how was that

6 discussed in their deliberations? Because I'm

7 assuming that that existed as an option then

8 as well. I mean, I don't think that's

9 probably new, right?

10 MR. FLAMM: When this first got on

11 our work agenda, I went back and looked

12 through the record and the discussions, and

13 one of the issues was a big growers, you know,

14 corporate growers and the small growers, and

15 how this was affecting. And there were some

16 concerns and comments that this method gave

17 advantage to the bigger companies at the

18 disadvantage of smaller. In our testimony,

19 however, I have to say it appears that in

20 terms of the method and bail bill equipment,

21 even small acreage growers do have that

22 available, but--
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: What was the

2 changed vote of the Crops Committee last

3 night?

4 MR. FOSTER: Sorry, I'm looking it

5 up here.

6 MR. MARAVELL: I have it, Madam

7 Chair, it was four to three in favor of the

8 motion.

9 MR. FOSTER: Thank you, Nick.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

11 discussion? Jay.

12 MR. FELDMAN: If I may just try to

13 answer your question. You know, as you know

14 when you go back and look through the record,

15 you've got to go back to the beginning, and a

16 lot of--when you go back to verify the

17 discussion, sometimes the record's clear, and

18 sometimes it isn't. And part of what we need

19 to do in doing that, and in this case we

20 couldn't find a very clear record, but the

21 question that the Board always has to, I

22 think, force of evidence issue, the Board
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1 always has to question whether what was done

2 previously is in compliance with the Act and

3 so forth. And ripening agents are really not,

4 you know, in the Act. So it's borderline to

5 begin with, and I guess what I'm trying to say

6 is the record isn't clear enough to make a

7 judgment as to whether all the considerations

8 that we would now today consider and document,

9 as a part of our process, was actually done at

10 that point.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

12 MS. ELLOR: This is not completely

13 off topic, but in further discussion about

14 this material itself, we heard from people who

15 work with a lot of farmers, large and small,

16 who have developed farms and built up an

17 economy around, you know, pineapple production

18 and what their take on it is, is that this

19 would affect a lot of farmers pretty

20 profoundly if we let this drop off the list,

21 and I really do take that into very serious

22 consideration.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John.

2 MR. FOSTER: I'm sorry, I can't

3 find it at the tip of my fingers here, but I'm

4 wondering if anyone remembers reading what the

5 original NOSB vote was for this material?

6 When it was first voted on, the list what the

7 voting was? I just can't remember.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour.

9 MR. BONDERA: I just would like to

10 put forth a potential conflict of interest,

11 since I do grow pineapples, and I don't use

12 ethylene gas as a flower induction. Just to

13 put that out there.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes, Nick.

15 MR. MARAVELL: Just for the

16 information of the other Board members, we

17 sort of verify that this is primarily an issue

18 that affects the import market into the United

19 States, so the farmers we're referring to here

20 are not in the United States.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour.

22 MR. MARAVELL: Well, the ones
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1 we're referring to who are using the ethylene

2 gas predominately. Okay, I could be wrong.

3 Colehour, please correct me.

4 MR. BONDERA: All--I would say,

5 I'm not going to give a percentage, but

6 pineapples that are sought for uniform

7 ripening in all areas, including Hawaii, and

8 I cannot comment on California production, but

9 I'm sure in areas of California, when

10 transportation is the rationale for the

11 process of being able to bulk move them

12 around, it is used. And it isn't necessarily,

13 just like in these other examples, at one

14 scale or another. Everyone in Costa Rica is

15 growing all of those pineapples for export, no

16 matter which size their farm is, because they

17 are all contractors of the distributor. It's

18 not--they're not making the choices, they're

19 following the lead of their contract, which is

20 only a very small piece of the large contract.

21 So it's all the farms added together adds up

22 to one large container to be shipped. So that
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1 is how it works, and it does --there still is

2 at least one producer in Hawaii that does use

3 ethylene gas for flower induction.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Maker of the

5 motion, will you please restate the motion?

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes. The motion is

7 to re-list ethylene gas for regulation of

8 pineapple flowering on 205.601(k).

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's been moved

10 and seconded, any further discussion? Hearing

11 none and seeing none, any recusals for

12 conflict? Okay, we will start the voting with

13 Jennifer.

14 MS. TAYLOR: No.

15 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

16 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

17 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

18 MR. BONDERA: No.

19 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

21 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

22 MS. ELLOR: Yes.
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1 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

2 MR. WALKER: Yes.

3 MR. FLAMM: No.

4 MR. FELDMAN: No.

5 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 10 yes, 4 no,

7 motion carries. Crops Committee, next up on

8 our agenda today is sodium silicate. Do I

9 have a motion?

10 MR. FOSTER: Yes. The motion is

11 to re-list sodium silicate for tree fruit and

12 fiber processing on 205.601(l)(2).

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

14 second?

15 MR. DEMURI: I'll second.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's been moved

17 and seconded, any discussion? Tina.

18 MS. ELLOR: This is also a

19 material where we received information from

20 public comment that we did not have before

21 that had to do with--we as a Crops Committee

22 had seen lignin sulfonate and sodium silicate
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1 as equivalent materials, when in fact sodium

2 silicate--lignin sulfonate is incompatible

3 with any chlorine washes, and sodium silicate

4 is compatible with chlorine, so they're not

5 exactly equivalent. So we did bring this back

6 and change some votes within the Committee.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

8 discussion on sodium silicate? Katrina.

9 MS. HEINZE: What was the new

10 vote?

11 MR. FOSTER: The new vote was

12 seven in favor, and zero not in favor.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

14 discussion? Hearing none and seeing none,

15 we'll proceed with voting. Katrina.

16 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

17 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

18 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

19 MR. BONDERA: Madam Chair, I

20 request--I'd like to abstain and request that

21 you come back around to me, please.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I can't come back
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1 around, but you're welcome to abstain. What

2 is your vote, Colehour?

3 MR. BONDERA: Very good, I will

4 abstain.

5 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

7 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

8 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

9 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

10 MR. WALKER: Yes.

11 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

12 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

13 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

14 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's 13 yes, one

16 abstention, motion carries. Crops Committee,

17 we'll return to an item that we--a motion that

18 we tabled for tetracycline. Would you like to

19 restate the motion with the clarification?

20 MR. FOSTER: Yes, I would. The

21 motion is to change the annotation--let's see,

22 I'm sorry, we're on petition. To adopt the
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1 petition to amend the listing for

2 tetracycline, removing the expiration date of

3 October 21, 2012, and be annotated as follows:

4 205.601, Synthetic Substances Allowed For Use

5 in Organic Crop Production, (i), as plant

6 disease control, (11), it should read--I'm

7 sorry, (12) it should read, (12), yes, for

8 fire blight control in apples and pears, only

9 until October 21, 2014.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

11 second?

12 MS. ELLOR: I'll second.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

14 Katrina.

15 MS. HEINZE: Could just give Lisa

16 a chance to catch up so that what we're

17 looking at matches what we're voting on? That

18 would be helpful, I think.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: This would be an

20 annotation change during sunset, so it's--

21 MR. MCEVOY: It's a petition.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sorry. This is a
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1 petition, so we do not need to do the two-step

2 process on this. My apologies. Okay, we have

3 a motion and a second, any further discussion?

4 Jay.

5 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Just to

6 reiterate here, I--it's very difficult for me

7 to vote for this without some more clarity

8 around what we're going to do as a Board to

9 expedite the coming together of the community,

10 growers, researchers, root stock and varietal

11 development people, those involved with

12 alternative treatments, consumers, et cetera,

13 in an expedited fashion so that we can get a

14 report back--encourage the development of a--

15 the coming together of a group and the

16 reporting to this Board on progress that's

17 being made. So Madam Chair, I don't know how

18 we accomplish that, but without some sense of

19 the Board that that's what we would like--want

20 to see, it's hard for me to vote for this.

21 So I would like to try, and I

22 think that is in line with our discussion last
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1 night in the Committee, I believe. I don't

2 I'm misrepresenting that. So I'm hoping we

3 can find a way, like we've taken straw votes

4 or polls, or get a sense of the Board here if

5 there's any objection, whatever method you

6 would choose to use, to get a sense that that

7 is indeed what the Board would like to see.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. I'd like to

9 reply, since you had directed that question to

10 me. Since you are making your intent clear,

11 granted it's a soft intent, it is now in the

12 transcript that any affirmative vote that you

13 make is predicated on industry action and task

14 force activity and really moving toward non15 antibiotic alternatives. Without building a

16 separate recommendation that comes before this

17 Board, it's only those types of soft measures

18 that we could put on the record at this point.

19 MR. FELDMAN: We could get a sense

20 of the Board, if you chose to.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure, sure. And

22 you're welcome to take that kind of poll too,
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1 if you'd like.

2 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you, I would

3 like to do that. But maybe at the end of our

4 conversation, so people may have more

5 information, John?

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina, you had your

7 hand raised.

8 MS. ELLOR: Also, Miles made it

9 clear that he's going to be forwarding this

10 request to the, you know, his governmental

11 community to aid us in this process, so I

12 think it would be a good thing to make that

13 intention clear.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John.

15 MR. FOSTER: Barry, I think--

16 sorry, Jay, I think you characterized the

17 discussion last night right on the money, that

18 there's a very significant, as with

19 streptomycin, a significant need on the part

20 of certainly the Crops Committee to see

21 progress in a demonstrable way in fairly short

22 order, and I would expect as similar to
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1 streptomycin, I think it would make sense to

2 kind of bundle our discussion through the next

3 term about what specific measures we'd like to

4 see. I don't see any reason why we wouldn't

5 put that in the form of a recommendation of

6 some sort for the next meeting, along the

7 lines that we talked about. That, for

8 example, optimizing use of resistant root

9 stocks, or cultivars, using other chemical

10 controls when warranted, and also more

11 cultural practices like spacing, thinning and

12 so on. I think we can get down in the weeds

13 as it were on that, and can commit to that and

14 moving that forward in lock step, hopefully

15 with the Program.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jennifer.

17 MS. TAYLOR: And are those changes

18 that we could also see reflected in the

19 organic system plan that the growers have to

20 turn in on a yearly, annual basis, where we

21 can see them start addressing the changes that

22 need to take place?
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That would be

2 outside the scope of this Board's purview,

3 that would be an enforcement issue, unless we

4 were to write a guidance document as a follow

5 up work plan item. Jay.

6 MR. FELDMAN: John, I think you

7 said it perfectly. I would--the only thing

8 I'd add to that is we would like to get some

9 sort of report from a body that, you know,

10 obviously this could be done in different

11 ways. A body that convenes to address this,

12 and if you think it's appropriate, having

13 followed up on the Committee work, if we could

14 ask the Board as to whether there's any

15 objection around the table to that, then we

16 could go back to the Committee with clear

17 guidance from the Board to help make that

18 happen.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John.

20 MR. FOSTER: I don't know quite

21 what the question was, but I'm guessing

22 something like, does anyone have objection if
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1 we put that on the Crops Committee work plan

2 to take a deeper dive on specific movement

3 that we feel should be made in short order?

4 Is that acceptable? Any objections?

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, any further

6 discussion? I didn't hear any objections.

7 All right. Hearing none and seeing none,

8 let's move forward with voting. Mac.

9 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

10 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

11 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

12 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

14 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

15 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

16 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

17 MR. WALKER: Yes.

18 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

20 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

21 MS. TAYLOR: No.

22 MS. HEINZE: Yes.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 13 yes, one no,

2 motion carries. Crops Committee, the next

3 material on our agenda for voting today is

4 sodium nitrate, as part of the sunset 2012 for

5 205.602. May I have a motion?

6 MR. FOSTER: Might I ask that we

7 go back to the lignin sulfonate, the one we

8 skipped, first? Is that all right?

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That'd be fine.

10 MR. FOSTER: Lisa A., I'd sent--I

11 just sent you some revised language. Thank

12 you for anticipating my next need. Madam

13 Chair, we do have a motion to re-list lignin

14 sulfonate on 205.601(l), (l)(1), as floating

15 agents in post harvest handling, lignin

16 sulfonate.

17 MR. DEMURI: I'll second.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's been moved

19 and seconded, any discussion? Katrina.

20 MS. HEINZE: Is this a change from

21 the recommendation that had an annotation

22 change? So we're doing a--the Committee has
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1 pulled their annotation change recommendation,

2 is that correct?

3 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

4 MS. HEINZE: Thank you for

5 clarifying.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: What was the

7 Committee vote on the straight re-listing of

8 this material?

9 MR. FOSTER: It was seven yes and

10 zero no.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

12 discussion? Hearing none and seeing none,

13 let's proceed. John Foster, please begin.

14 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

15 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

16 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

18 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

19 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

20 MR. WALKER: Yes.

21 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.
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1 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

2 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

3 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

4 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 13 yes, one

6 absent, motion carries. Crops Committee, the

7 next material on our agenda for voting is

8 Sunset 2012 materials, sodium nitrate, and

9 then corn steep liquor. We'll begin with

10 sodium nitrate. May I have a motion?

11 MR. FOSTER: The motion is to re12 list sodium nitrate on 205.602(g), without

13 annotation. And Madam Chair, may I ask when

14 it's appropriate to discuss potential

15 disclosure of interests?

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That'll be just

17 before voting. Do I hear a second?

18 MR. DEMURI: Second.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Discussion? Mac.

20 MR. STONE: So for clarity,

21 because of where it is on the list, if we re22 list without annotation means it will come off
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1 the list, is that correct?

2 MR. FOSTER: No, that's not

3 correct. What it means is that the allowance

4 that's currently in place for up to 20% of

5 nitrogen need will no longer be an allowance.

6 The material will be prohibited without

7 exception.

8 MR. STONE: The end result is the

9 same?

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Can Crops

11 Committee Chair John Foster, just so we're

12 perfectly clear here then, the Crops Committee

13 is proposing an annotation change that would

14 prevent any further exemptions of the 20% use

15 of this material, and this is an annotation

16 change during sunset?

17 MR. FOSTER: That is correct.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. And so the

19 second vote on this material would be to re20 list with the current annotation, which would

21 preserve the 20% exemption?

22 MR. FOSTER: That is also correct.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

2 Any recusals for conflict? John Foster.

3 MR. FOSTER: Yes, I'm going to

4 recuse myself.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I'm also going to

6 recuse myself. Any further discussion? If I

7 were to vote on this material, I would have

8 voted to preserve the exemption of the 20%

9 use. Any further discussion? Katrina.

10 MS. HEINZE: This feels like a

11 very material vote for industry, I'm concerned

12 we're not having any discussion about it.

13 This is not my area of expertise. If at least

14 someone could summarize the arguments on both

15 sides. This just feels like something that we

16 need to make sure that has been due

17 deliberation before we make a decision, and we

18 need some discussion on the record.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Why did the

20 Committee vote the way they did? Do we have

21 any sentiment there? John Foster.

22 MR. FOSTER: I think once I've
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1 recused myself, I probably shouldn't navigate

2 that. Tina, would you mind walking us

3 through, as Vice Chair of Crops, would you

4 mind walking us through?

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Procedurally,

6 John, there's no conflict in discussing this

7 material, but you're welcome to take whatever

8 action you want. Tina.

9 MS. ELLOR: I can speak for

10 myself, and perhaps other Committee members

11 could speak as well, but this is a prohibited

12 natural. We did get, you know, information,

13 extensive information on mining practices,

14 usage, I think there was a general consensus

15 that this is often used as a substitute for

16 soil building as a little bit of a shortcut,

17 and I think that was the -- that was my

18 general feeling, and why I voted for this

19 dropping of the annotation.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac.

21 MR. STONE: A simple statement, I

22 guess. It's quite problematic for certifiers
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1 in the audit trail process of verification of

2 the 20% of input nitrogen.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

4 MS. HEINZE: What was the new

5 information, since the Board listed this, that

6 came up, besides the--I get there's the

7 request from the NOP, but new technical

8 information? And then the sense I got, and I

9 haven't done a tally, is that we got quite a

10 bit of public comment that said that our

11 farmers still need this. And so if someone

12 could address that for me, to help me

13 understand this issue, that would be helpful.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

15 MS. ELLOR: There was a new,

16 actually I think a TAP that we found very,

17 very helpful in looking at this material, and

18 especially surrounding practices and

19 alternatives, and you know, a lot of

20 information on where it comes from, and you

21 know. So I think in reviewing the technical--

22 the new technical material, we felt that we
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1 had sufficient new information to take a

2 pretty good, clear look at this, and we

3 decided not to look at it specifically through

4 harmonization with other standards, because

5 we're reviewing materials for use under the

6 National Organic Program, so we chose not to

7 do this separately outside of sunset.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac.

9 MR. STONE: As a new Board member,

10 I would like to say that I've heard several

11 comments of being careful to take tools away

12 from farmers.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Procedurally, what

14 would be the impact of both motions carrying?

15 The first motion that re-lists the material

16 without the annotation, and a second vote that

17 also was affirmative? I think we should know

18 in advance what would happen.

19 MS. HEINZE: Perhaps the Program

20 could work through a very lucid explanation,

21 like they did on streptomycin, which says, you

22 know, if the annotation passes, then this--
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1 that was just very helpful, so perhaps they

2 could answer that. My second question was the

3 public comment we received, if this annotation

4 passes, which would prohibit use of sodium

5 nitrate, what would be the impact to farmers?

6 Because I feel that a lot of people stood up

7 and said that they need this material. So I'm

8 just trying to understand that.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: The impact that we

10 heard about, one of them was when the soil

11 temperature dips below 60 degrees in certain

12 areas of the country, that large amounts of

13 organic acreage would be less productive in

14 terms of quality and yield. 

15 MR. MCEVOY: Our understanding

16 would be with the first recommendation to re17 list sodium nitrate without the annotation, it

18 would mean that in the proposed Sunset 2012

19 docket, we would propose to re-list sodium

20 nitrate without the annotation, and then

21 sodium nitrate would no longer be able to be

22 used in organic crop production. The second
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1 recommendation would be to re-list with the

2 annotation, which would continue the allowance

3 of sodium nitrate at 20% of the total nitrogen

4 needs of the crop. So we would need

5 clarification from the Board, if you pass both

6 recommendations, which one trumps the other?

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

8 MS. HEINZE: Remember this is part

9 of the changing annotations during sunset, so

10 just like we did for strep, if the annotation

11 change passes, but the re-list fails, this is

12 the timing of your docket question. Melissa,

13 we're glad to have you back. You did a very

14 good job explaining this to us for strep, we

15 need help on sodium nitrate, of the

16 implications of the second vote. Sorry to put

17 you on the spot. Maybe Jay, have you thought

18 about this?

19 MS. BAILEY: Let me--Melissa

20 Bailey, NOP. Let me answer, assuming I know

21 the question. Okay, so if the annotation--

22 we'll take it in two parts. So first, the
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1 annotation vote. If the annotation--oh wait

2 a minute, this is--okay, so you're changing

3 the existing annotation, you're removing it,

4 so that's the annotation change, correct?

5 Okay. So, if that motion passes, that's what

6 we would move forward in the Sunset 2012

7 docket with. If there were an issue for

8 whatever reason, we would turn to the second

9 vote, so it is to re-list as is, with the 20%

10 limitation. If the motion fails, then it

11 falls off the prohibited list, and therefore,

12 sodium nitrate would be allowed with no

13 restriction.

14 MS. HEINZE: Then if the second--

15 the motion to relist with the current

16 annotation fails, right. So the second one

17 really needs to pass to keep it on the

18 prohibited list, correct? Is that--I see Jay

19 nodding his head.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

21 MS. HEINZE: Can you confirm that,

22 Jay?
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, because the

2 effect is if it got hung up somehow, then it

3 could return as an unregulated natural,

4 theoretically.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: This seems like an

6 important vote to get a sense of what the

7 sentiment of the Board is on that second vote.

8 Yes. I haven't heard anyone in the organic

9 community suggest a wide open door for sodium

10 nitrate, not a soul. So, we should make sure

11 that's where this Board is at before we vote

12 on the annotation change. Is there any Board

13 member that's wanting to vote no on the second

14 vote in this two-step process? Okay. Thank

15 you. Any further discussion on sodium nitrate

16 and the annotation change to remove the

17 exemption, which effectively removes sodium

18 nitrate from organic production systems?

19 Hearing none and seeing none, we're proceed

20 with the first of--this vote. Colehour?

21 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

22 MR. DICKSON: Yes.
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1 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

2 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

3 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

4 MR. WALKER: Yes.

5 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

6 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

7 MR. DEMURI: No.

8 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

9 MS. HEINZE: No.

10 MR. STONE: Yes.

11 MR. FOSTER: Recusal.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And the Chair

13 recuse. Two no, two recusal, 10 yes, and the

14 motion carries. Crops Committee, do you have

15 a motion on the existing material, sodium

16 nitrate?

17 MR. FOSTER: Yes. The motion is

18 to re-list sodium nitrate on 205.602(g),

19 unless use is restricted to no more than 20%

20 of the crop's total nitrogen requirement.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

22 second?
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1 MS. HEINZE: Second.

2 MR. DEMURI: Second.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Katrina

4 seconded, just a reminder that the basis on

5 which the two-thirds majority will be

6 calculated will be 12 votes, since there will

7 be two recusals. That means we need at least

8 eight yes votes to carry this motion that we

9 spoke about a few minutes ago as being very

10 important to carry. Any further discussion?

11 Okay. 

12 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

13 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

14 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

15 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

16 MR. WALKER: Yes.

17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

18 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

19 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

20 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

21 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

22 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.
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1 MR. FOSTER: Recuse.

2 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And the Chair

4 recuses. Two recusals, 12 yes, motion

5 carries. The next item up for voting on our

6 agenda is corn steep liquor. Board members,

7 let's have some stamina if we all can and get

8 through this, the docket of crops materials

9 before we go to lunch. Do I have a motion on

10 corn steep liquor?

11 MR. FOSTER: Yes, the motion is to

12 consider corn steep liquor to be non-synthetic

13 when produced via the traditional

14 countercurrent corn wet milling process only.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

16 second?

17 MR. DEMURI: Second.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's been moved

19 and seconded, any discussion? Any further

20 discussion? Okay. Any recusals for conflict

21 of interest? John.

22 MR. FOSTER: I will be, yes,
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1 recuse.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Katrina.

3 MS. HEINZE: No discussion? We

4 had virtually no discussion--

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sorry.

6 MS. HEINZE: --on this.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes, I called for

8 it a couple of times, I'll call one more time.

9 The Chair also recuses on this one. Any

10 further discussion on the non-synthetic

11 determination of corn steep liquor when

12 produced via the traditional countercurrent

13 corn wet milling process?

14 MS. HEINZE: Jay had his hand up,

15 he can go first.

16 MR. FELDMAN: I want to ask you

17 what did you want to talk about?

18 MS. HEINZE: Gee. We have five

19 new members, we spent hours at our last

20 meeting discussing this, we've had a ton of

21 public comment. I just think our public

22 deserves getting both sides out, so it's out
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1 on the table. We heard a lot of public

2 comments from former members that that's our

3 duty. That's my point. And I'm feeling a

4 little bit of a burden as the Materials Chair,

5 because I went through and tried to argue on

6 both sides, but there's strong opinions on

7 this Board, and it deserves to be out for our

8 public.

9 MR. FELDMAN: Having been the

10 advocate for voting this as a synthetic, it's

11 clear that the record is very deep on this

12 issue. I mean, there's--I don't think anyone

13 could suggest that we haven't discussed this,

14 and we did have a full discussion the other

15 day. We did get some additional comments that

16 we haven't discussed, yes, we did get

17 yesterday. So all I can say is that my own

18 personal opinions have become stronger, and I

19 have tried, as you know, I was involved with

20 writing the minority opinion, to capture that

21 on a number of different levels.

22 First and foremost, what our duty
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1 is under the law, under the statute. We all

2 know we have a responsibility to evaluate

3 synthetic non-synthetic. And then the other

4 duty we have is to follow the Board policy.

5 As you know, I think there are imperfections

6 in the chemical change policy, but that is the

7 policy, and we should be true to that policy.

8 I think when you work--although we don't have

9 a formal decision tree, when we put it through

10 a decision tree on the minority side, we found

11 that, you know, all of the characteristics

12 that were needed to identify chemical change

13 associated with the introduction of a

14 synthetic material, chemical change caused by

15 a synthetic material, were there. That, you

16 know, we saw breaking the disulfide bonds,

17 equal covalent bonds, we saw the breaking of

18 the protein matrix, we saw changes in

19 functionality, and we saw the formation of new

20 chemicals. 

21 I mean, these are all the elements

22 in the--when you go through a decision tree.
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1 So our--the major--as I said the other day,

2 the major task I felt that we needed to

3 accomplish over these many months since the

4 last Board meeting was to seek somehow

5 "independent", I mean obviously you can always

6 challenge a scientist's independence, we know

7 that. But try to seek independent scientific

8 assessment of the various pieces of

9 information that we've received, that the

10 Board has received. We did that. We looked

11 around the scientific literature for experts

12 in the corn wet milling process as it exists

13 in the commercial sector, whether it's Corn

14 Products U.S. or it's ADM or whoever it is, we

15 asked the questions to get verifications on

16 claims that were made to the Board, and we

17 brought that back to the Committee, and the

18 Committee heard it, and the Committee

19 deliberated on it.

20 You know, one of the things that

21 is always difficult in something like this is

22 the conflicting science, and where the science
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1 is coming from. You don't want to impugn

2 anyone's reputation, because I think all the

3 people involved in this debate are honorable

4 people who are trying to do the right thing.

5 I said earlier we're a community, we have

6 different viewpoints in the community, but I

7 think we're all after the same thing. My goal

8 in looking at this as closely as I have is to

9 set in stone the ability and the

10 responsibility of this Board to carry out its

11 statutory duty to evaluate materials. And if

12 we make the wrong move on this, there may be

13 a whole bunch of materials that--I'm not

14 saying whether we want them or not, but there

15 will be a whole bunch of materials that we, in

16 the long term, maybe not in the short term,

17 but in the long term, will not review for

18 conformance with the underlying principles of

19 the Organic Foods Production Act.

20 So that's why many in our

21 community have called this a foundational

22 issue, and so I want that ability to review.
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1 I voted for a lot of synthetics today. I may

2 not have voted for every synthetic that

3 everybody in our community would have wanted

4 me to, but I voted for a lot of synthetics.

5 And I did that in accordance with the

6 standards of the law. I don't want to give up

7 that ability. I don't want this Board in any

8 -- whether we're talking about accessory

9 nutrients or we're talking about materials

10 that we use as inputs, I think that's our

11 responsibility. That's why we're here. And

12 I know it's a balancing act, I know it's tough

13 and I know it may increase the workload. I

14 know you're concerned about that, and believe

15 me, after being here a year, I'm with you on

16 that one, I really am.

17 We are going to be the mainstream

18 agriculture in this country. We are going to

19 be that, so we've got to recognize what the

20 job is to keep this thing credible, with an

21 incredible amount of trust and belief that

22 this Board is doing what it needs to do, and
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1 we need a hell of a lot more resources to do

2 that, because the kind of reviews we're going

3 through do not happen on the conventional

4 side. I know some of the companies are

5 involved on both sides of the fence here. But

6 in my experience of 30 years, this is

7 beautiful thing what's happening around this

8 table, even though it's painful sometimes.

9 This is a beautiful thing. And it's -- we

10 need to take on that challenge in a way that

11 gives us the ability to go through these

12 things, even though it's a mountain of stuff.

13 We're going to figure it out, we're going to

14 get the resources, and long term, we're not

15 going to be -- we've already grown to what is

16 a $50 billion industry, one, two percent of

17 agriculture, 30 years ago we were told this

18 was not a commercially viable form of

19 production in this country.

20 So, I don't think we need to worry

21 about the outcome of this decision. I think

22 we cannot be married to the outcome, we have
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1 to, in your best judgment, look at the

2 science, look at what AMRI has said, they are

3 a trusted institution as I said the other day.

4 They are unequivocal on this issue of it being

5 synthetic, sorry. Boy, I would hate to give

6 that whole speech and then say this is a non7 synthetic. So they're unequivocal on this

8 being synthetic, and then just, you know, go

9 with your gut and what feels right. But

10 please don't make your decision based on what

11 you think the outcome will be, because then

12 you're going to be -- find yourselves,

13 especially to the new Board members, you're

14 going to find yourself down the road

15 conflicted over the principles that we have to

16 leave as a legacy for organic. That's what

17 you're doing here on this Board. You are

18 creating a legacy for the future of a trusted

19 form of agriculture unlike anything else we've

20 seen in this country.

21 So, use the information that way,

22 don't be cowered or don't be frightened by the
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1 fact that we may increase the workload or

2 that. So, when you come back -- I'm

3 concluding -- when you come back to the

4 science, I think the science is clear. All

5 the data that we've heard is an evaluation of

6 the commercial countercurrent process. It is

7 -- the bottom line, it is the sulfur dioxide

8 that breaks the bonds, this would not happen

9 as a truly biological process by itself. Yes,

10 there is biological activity going on in that

11 corn wet milling steeping process, but it

12 doesn't happen, unfortunately. The other

13 thing to keep in mind down the road is we,

14 with this action, we will encourage, I

15 guarantee it, we will encourage the

16 development long term of a non-synthetic corn

17 wet milling process. It's available, it's

18 there, and one of the great things we're doing

19 on this Board is creating incentives to move

20 in the direction of the true definition of

21 organic. Thank you.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I'd like to hear
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1 from some others as well. Katrina.

2 MS. HEINZE: Thank you so much,

3 Jay, for putting that on the record. That--I

4 very much appreciate it. I'm going to try as

5 hard as I can to divide my comments into two

6 pieces. So as a scientist rep on this Board,

7 what I have tried to do over the last couple

8 of days is to go through all the public

9 comment and the TR and identify areas where I

10 think various technical experts have agreed,

11 and areas where they have disagreed. Jay, if

12 you could help me, if I missed something, or

13 in my summary I did not do that correctly,

14 please correct me.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I want to--I'm

16 going to want to just make sure that enough

17 people get turns. I'll need to recognize him.

18 Thanks.

19 MS. HEINZE: Okay. Just so

20 everyone understands where the science is on

21 this, and then perhaps other people could

22 comment, and then I'll make my personal
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1 comments after that. 

2 So just a reminder, and Jay

3 referred us to this earlier as well, that our

4 classification document, which has been

5 approved by this--a prior Board, says that a

6 material is synthetic if it is chemically

7 changed by the process, with a chemical change

8 being defined as a change in identity of the

9 substance, and then it says a substance is

10 something that has a unique identity, and it

11 has some descriptors for that. We can pull it

12 up if that would help people in their

13 decision-making process. Or, if there is a

14 significant amount of a synthetic input used

15 in the process. 

16 So it appears--so there's a couple

17 of things. We all know corn is an input,

18 sulfur dioxide is an input. It appears that

19 all the technical experts agree that the

20 sulfur dioxide is used to stop fermentation;

21 we've heard varying testimony on whether it

22 also functions to break disulfide bonds, so
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1 some of the technical experts said yes; some

2 said no. Okay then, so that's--could be

3 material to your decision on chemical change.

4 Then with regards to the residue level, a

5 couple of public comments referred to a paper,

6 Dufresne et al, Journal of Dairy Science 2002,

7 which listed a residue level of 1.9%; that was

8 actually the sulfur level. So other technical

9 experts listed residue levels between .009 and

10 .015% of the sulfur dioxide itself. That was

11 Liggett and Koffler.

12 Then our third scientific source,

13 which is Richard Theur, says that the sulfur

14 dioxide is present at less than two percent of

15 the original. So the conclusion there would

16 be that there are some varying perspectives on

17 how much residue is left, so it's somewhere

18 between less than two percent and those small

19 percentages. Okay, I think that's all I have

20 on the science piece. If people want to ask

21 me questions on that, and I'll reserve my

22 personal comments for when you're ready, Madam
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1 Chair.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Go ahead.

3 MS. HEINZE: So some personal

4 comments. The duty we have as a Board on

5 classification is to resolve the materials

6 that the rest of our community have not been

7 able to resolve. I could not agree more with

8 Jay; it is a very important task. It is an

9 ultimate duty that we have.

10 So as I looked at the record last

11 night, OMRI did classify this, it's a material

12 that has been widely used; they were asked to

13 classify it; their advisory board classified

14 it with I believe a mixed vote, if I remember

15 the record correctly, but classified it as

16 synthetic. They were questioned on that, and

17 so asked that it be brought to this Board. So

18 really what they said is hey, there's

19 differences of opinion on this, and we would

20 like for Board to weigh in.

21 It is one of the hardest

22 materials--so I'm seeing Lindsey shaking her
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1 head, that's maybe not exactly, but somehow

2 through the process, someone said there are

3 differences of opinion, and the Board is being

4 asked to look at this. So I apologize,

5 Lindsey for--so we are the final arbiter on

6 that.

7 You know science is not black and

8 white. I know everyone wants science to give

9 you an answer yes or no; it really doesn't.

10 Science is based on the preponderance of

11 evidence, and the weighing of evidence, and

12 often requires quite a bit of vigorous debate.

13 So I'm happy with the process that we've had.

14 And then I want to speak a little

15 bit about residue levels. I guess just that

16 I think people need to dig in and really say

17 how much is too little, you know the Richard

18 Theur and the Liggett and Koffler amounts are

19 part per million ranges, like 10 part per

20 million, and I understand that there is

21 varying opinions on the impact of that, but

22 think long and hard about the implications of
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1 your decision. I can go find 10--our

2 analytical methods are quite good, so

3 understand that.

4 And then my final point is with

5 regards to disulfide bonds. So there is--we

6 have varying scientific opinions on whether

7 disulfide bonds are broken, and you know, I'm

8 not exactly sure what's happening in that

9 little pot, big pot, so I'll give you that

10 disulfide bonds are broken, but oh my gosh,

11 that happens all the time in nature. And so

12 I went out and looked and said okay, where's

13 that happening. So if any of you are bread

14 bakers, you take wheat, it's got gluten. What

15 happens during proofing is that you're

16 breaking and reforming disulfide bonds. Those

17 proteins are reorienting, they're breaking,

18 they're stretching. That is disulfide bond

19 breaking and reforming, which, if you go with

20 the person who said disulfide bonds are

21 breaking, I'm not so sure from a consumer

22 perception that they think that bread proofing
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1 is chemical change.

2 And ultimately, my perspective is

3 that as the Board over the last 20 plus years

4 has looked at chemical change, they've had to

5 weigh what a chemist thinks chemical change

6 is. So chemical change happens all around us

7 all the time. If you ask a chemist, which I

8 know the Crops Committee did, a chemist, a

9 scientist is going to say chemical change

10 happens all the time. I'm not sure a consumer

11 understands that.

12 A consumer doesn't necessarily

13 think of their egg cooking, their bread baking

14 as chemical change, and that's what we as a

15 Board have to weigh. So I would ask you to

16 view, as you weigh this very difficult

17 decision, that you think that through.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

19 MS. ELLOR: This has been an

20 incredible journey, and boy, I've learned so

21 much, and I started out through this process

22 thinking no, of course it's not synthetic,
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1 it's a food processing waste, and we can't

2 take food processing wastes out of organic

3 agriculture. And having gone through the

4 process and learned so much about corn

5 steeping processes, corn wet milling, both in

6 the laboratory and outside of the laboratory,

7 and having two very highly qualified

8 scientists and a number of stakeholders as

9 well weighing in on this, I've come back

10 around to say that I just can't consider this

11 particular food processing waste as synthetic.

12 I just don't see it that way, and

13 we've gone into all the detail about where the

14 bonds are broken, and how the bonds are

15 broken, and residue in the final food

16 processing waste. But when it comes right

17 down to it, I still see this as a pretty basic

18 food processing waste, and I don't see that in

19 the applications that it's used, that it's

20 causing a significant or even, you know, not

21 even any harm to the systems to which it's

22 applied.
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1 So you know, I just think about

2 this, and I think of all the other food

3 processing wastes that are used to make

4 composts in organic agriculture, and I just

5 can't see this one, you know, amongst all the

6 others, as synthetic.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve.

8 MR. DEMURI: Tina pretty much took

9 the words right out of my mouth. I'm of the

10 same mind set that Tina is; I just can't see

11 it as synthetic either. I recognize the

12 science on both sides; everybody's got great

13 viewpoints, but that's just the way that I

14 have settled on it, and we've discussed this

15 now for a couple of meetings at great length,

16 and I would ask the new members if you have

17 any questions, this would be a good time to

18 ask those, rather than us keep discussing this

19 all afternoon. If you have any questions,

20 specific questions, it would be a good time to

21 ask them.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac.
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1 MR. STONE: So Jay, you said

2 something a few minutes ago, but I ask that if

3 we determine this to be a non-synthetic, what

4 is the effect that has on other products that

5 might be brought before the Board?

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes, that's a

7 question for the Materials Chair, really,

8 talking about what precedent-setting kinds of

9 activities happen from voting one material or

10 another.

11 MS. HEINZE: Does that mean you

12 want me to talk?

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure.

14 MS. HEINZE: Okay. You know on

15 this one, I'm not--I get there's huge

16 implications for our community; I'm not sure

17 it's precedent-setting.

18 This material is exactly the kind

19 of material that the classification document

20 was intended to address, you know, where it

21 said wow, we have to really dig deep. Well

22 holy cow, we've dug deep. So I think it has
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1 very big implications for the industry, or

2 from the community, because it's in use today,

3 right, so if we classify it--well, if we

4 classify it as non-synthetic, nothing changes.

5 If we classify it as synthetic, then they have

6 to discontinue use, unless it's petitioned to

7 the Board for review and approval. So that's8 -I think your question--obviously Jay, if you

9 disagree with my statement, please do so.

10 I was also going to remind

11 everyone, again this is a process thing, we're

12 voting on classification only. We are not

13 voting on whether you think it's compatible

14 with organic agriculture; that is a separate

15 question. So, if you think the use of sulfur

16 dioxide is not compatible with organic

17 agriculture, but you also think that its use

18 here does not cause chemical change, then you

19 vote to classify it as non-synthetic, because

20 there's no chemical change, and there's no

21 residue. I want to get that in, or a residue

22 that's not significant. But then, you might
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1 be someone who would want to petition it as a

2 non-synthetic for review by the Board to be

3 prohibited. So remember, two different

4 decisions. So I concur with Steve. Boy, if

5 you have questions, now is the time.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, let's make

7 sure we hear from everybody once before we

8 start replowing ground. Colehour.

9 MR. BONDERA: I want to start by

10 saying I'm sorry that this might take longer

11 still, because while you're talking, I'm

12 trying to think, and while I'm thinking, I'm

13 looking. And so I'll admit I do not

14 understand science well enough to be able to

15 explain it to somebody else. So this is

16 therefore going to need some level of response

17 in the form of a question. However, my

18 understanding is--and it may be inaccurate, so

19 I'd be happy to receive corrections--but when

20 I look through some of this stuff, and I read

21 something about this, like that lactic acid is

22 the driving force for the chemical change
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1 rather than sulfurous acid, and lactic acid is

2 produced naturally in the steeping process

3 through the conversion of the dissolved

4 sugars, I think that's all good.

5 And then when I then read that if

6 sulfurous acid is present, it can react with

7 the proteins, but the breaking of the

8 disulfide bonds is an irreversible process

9 that, like you said, and it happens all the

10 time. I actually make and have bread at the

11 farmer's market every week, you know, it's not

12 that I don't understand these things at all,

13 but I think that the point that in an

14 industrial process, some of the bonds are

15 probably broken by lactic acid, but the

16 assumption that the entire degradation is due

17 to that unilateral action in the fermentation

18 reaction is what turns me over to the, it

19 would only happen in the synthetic process is

20 the bright flag for me of the shift.

21 And I think that by putting it in

22 terms of that concept, well you know, it's
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1 lactic acid, it's going to happen, that's the

2 natural process, and then you know, reading

3 other people's summaries of it, where it's

4 like yes that's true but the entire

5 degradation is not occurring that way, so you

6 can't say all or nothing, and it's not one way

7 or the other makes me feel like only

8 happening--it's not that it wouldn't happen

9 naturally in some ways.

10 I think, you know, and what popped

11 to my brain when you were talking about

12 examples of--you know, it's the right things

13 in the right pot together at the right time

14 and the right temperature and the right

15 process and if that includes a synthetic

16 ingredient, I just feel like you know, put it

17 all out on the table in terms of honesty, not

18 just say well, this is the major thing,

19 therefore everything else is irrelevant.

20 And I think that your--the

21 comments about, you know, X number of parts

22 per million and how people want to look at
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1 those things and understand them, and of

2 course over time, you know, we're able to get

3 more and more details, I think that's

4 important.

5 But I think that from my

6 perspective, it's still vital to look, you

7 know, inside yourself and think about--sorry,

8 that's what I do, I'm going to look inside

9 myself, and I'm going to recognize that, and

10 you know in this case, I agree. It's a fine

11 line, that distinction between, you know,

12 between synthetic and non-synthetic, but you

13 know, I brew beer and I make mead, and if you

14 look at a commercial scale of those kinds of

15 processes, too, a lot of times the

16 distinction, and the distinction I'm sorry to

17 say, but I'll say it, whether you're, you

18 know, I don't do any of those things that are

19 certified organic, but from an organic

20 perspective versus a non-organic perspective,

21 you're looking at usually only one very minor

22 detail, like adding sulfites or not adding
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1 sulfites.

2 And so I don't think it needs to

3 be a very major variation from that line. For

4 me, that's where I'm at, I mean, that's where

5 I come from, and that's how I understand it,

6 and that's how, when I look at this CSL thing,

7 that's how it sits for me is, you know, I

8 think I'm just going to be done saying that,

9 but that's why I end up concluding, you know,

10 if we're going to add that synthetic, and then

11 claim it's not synthetic, I--it doesn't come

12 together for me. 

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: New members, if

14 you have any discomfort with any of the

15 material and feel like you really needed more

16 time to research it, please abstain. Feel

17 free to be an abstention on any of the votes

18 today, including this one. That's absolutely

19 within your right. Any further discussion on

20 corn steep liquor? Barry.

21 MR. FLAMM: I'd just like to make

22 a comment. My own perspective, because this
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1 has often been characterized as a value

2 judgment, and people on one side or another,

3 I have to say myself, I had no idea what corn

4 steep liquor was before this started, and I've

5 asked people in Montana what their thoughts

6 were, and nobody ever heard of it. So I had

7 a totally clean slate, so I can honestly say

8 that all I've done is look at the narrowest of

9 questions and that is what we were asked, is

10 whether it's a non-synthetic or synthetic.

11 Many of these other things brought up has not

12 entered into my conclusion, which is that it's

13 synthetic.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

15 discussion? Seeing none and hearing none--oh,

16 John.

17 MR. FOSTER: Something just struck

18 me. The going with the gut, I think that's

19 what turns it for me. The science is--science

20 is science, and I love science, but I'm really

21 more of a humanist, and I kind of go with gut

22 and heart more often than probably is healthy
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1 for me, but I do it anyway. And I can't--and

2 I've mentioned this before, and so it's

3 nothing new here, but it's what I come back

4 to, it's kind of where I--what Colehour, you

5 more eloquently said, kind of going within

6 yourself.

7 I can't get my head around that

8 what I generally consider to be every day

9 things that are on this table and in my mouth,

10 I don't feel those being synthetic, and I know

11 there's bonds being broken every minute, every

12 second, and some of that's due to synthetic

13 food additives, it happens. I just can't get

14 my head around those things, we don't consider

15 those things synthetic in our world, and I

16 don't see how we can do it here for this

17 reason either.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I haven't spoken

19 yet on this. I'm getting really hungry, and

20 I'm wondering if other people's blood sugar is

21 dropping, so I do think we need to pick up the

22 pace of the discussion here, and tighten up
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1 our thinking and our comments. Let's cut

2 right to the chase on all of this, okay. So

3 if anybody has--let's really avoid the

4 filibuster, or even getting into sort of

5 tangent topics. If we can be tight, then

6 let's get the vote and proceed, okay.

7 Katrina.

8 MS. HEINZE: With all due respect

9 to the hearts, we have a process which we

10 approved in November 2009. Remember chemical

11 change; remember level of the synthetic input.

12 That's what you're voting on.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay, and then

14 Tina.

15 MR. FELDMAN: And you know,

16 Katrina, we've talked about this a lot. This

17 is really not a question about chemical change

18 in a vacuum.

19 We acknowledge, and we recognize

20 in the organic rule that chemical change,

21 John, does happen all the time, and it happens

22 through cooking, baking, you know. I remember
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1 my first call on, what was it, the Crops

2 Committee, we were talking about whether toast

3 was, you know, a chemical change. And we all

4 agreed it was chemical change, but we

5 recognized it was induced by heat and the

6 process wasn't sort of a natural process, blah

7 blah blah.

8 So we recognize that chemical

9 change is occurring around us all the time.

10 The central question here is, is what's

11 inducing that chemical change. Are we

12 manipulating nature, in a way, with synthetics

13 that should cause us to take another look at

14 whether that's acceptable in organic, or

15 compatible?

16 If we don't pass this as a

17 synthetic today, we will miss the opportunity

18 to take that other look at whether that

19 chemical change, which is induced by the

20 introduction of something unnatural, okay,

21 introduction of sulfur dioxide, is something

22 that we recognize causes chemical change
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1 because of the introduction of that synthetic,

2 because of the introduction of that sulfur

3 dioxide.

4 And then, we really don't have a

5 choice, I don't believe, as Board members.

6 We--whether it feels right or not, we have a

7 responsibility to put it in the queue, and to

8 evaluate it under our national list criteria.

9 The only way we get to put it in the queue and

10 evaluate it is if we deem this process

11 synthetic.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

13 MS. ELLOR: I don't want you to

14 think that we touchy feely people didn't apply

15 science to forming our opinions also. We went

16 through the same process, and we came up with

17 a different conclusion. We came to a

18 different place going through the same

19 process, and that's what's made this material

20 so difficult. So you know, the majority

21 opinion I think sorts through how we applied

22 the materials documents to this process and we
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1 came out in a different place than the

2 minority opinion. So--but I don't want you to

3 think we were shirking our responsibility and

4 not applying the materials that we had to make

5 this decision. 

6 It just so happens we have a

7 difference of opinion and a difference of

8 conclusions while running through the same

9 process. It's a very difficult process, and

10 I know that as we go on in the history of the

11 Board, I hope these things will become more

12 clear.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

14 discussion? Colehour.

15 MR. BONDERA: Just a very quick

16 logistical commentary about the fact that the

17 Committee vote on this, that's the immediate

18 history, is not the current Crop Committee, it

19 was the previous Crop Committee that voted it

20 as it was voted, four-three.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. And

22 just so everyone in the audience knows, that's
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1 standard procedure that our Board work carries

2 on from the time of one meeting ending and

3 before new members are appointed, so I just

4 wanted to make sure people knew that was quite

5 standard. Any further discussion? Seeing

6 none and hearing none, we will vote.

7 MS. ELLOR: Madam Chair, can we

8 restate the motion?

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes. Maker of the

10 motion, please restate.

11 MR. FOSTER: I'm opening it back

12 up. The motion is that corn steep liquor

13 produced via the traditional countercurrent

14 corn wet milling process be considered as non15 synthetic and allowed for use in organic crop

16 production.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy, please

18 start the voting.

19 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

20 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

21 MR. MARAVELL: No.

22 MR. WALKER: No.
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1 MR. FLAMM: No.

2 MR. FELDMAN: No.

3 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

4 MS. TAYLOR: No.

5 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

6 MR. STONE: Abstain.

7 MR. FOSTER: Recuse.

8 MR. BONDERA: No.

9 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Recuse. Madam

11 Secretary, we'll await your tally. And please

12 start by tallying the total votes cast.

13 Eleven votes cast; five yes, two recusals, one

14 abstention--sorry guys, we just want to make

15 sure we've got our voting sheet absolutely

16 accurate over here. Okay. Six no, five yes,

17 two abstentions--sorry, two recusals, one

18 abstention; motion fails. That concludes the

19 docket of agenda items for Crops Committee.

20 MS. HEINZE: I think it would be

21 worth putting on the record what the

22 implications of that vote mean, because that
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1 --

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: The implications

3 of not determining this material to be non4 synthetic should be spelled out very precisely

5 by the folks who would be enforcing this, the

6 National Organic Program.

7 MR. MCEVOY: So, what just

8 happened here is that you did not make a

9 decisive decision to approve this

10 recommendation and consider corn steep liquor

11 a non-synthetic. You have not made a motion

12 to consider it a synthetic, and you have not

13 made a decisive determination that it's a

14 synthetic, either. So there's no decisive

15 decision on this particular topic. Therefore,

16 the substance retains its current status,

17 which is undetermined by the NOSB, until you

18 make a decisive determination.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I will take only

20 precise clarifying questions right now before

21 the lunch break.

22 MR. FELDMAN: I think our rules
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1 suggest that we should try to reach a decisive

2 vote, and in that spirit, I think we should

3 entertain a motion to classify corn steep

4 liquor as a synthetic material. My reading of

5 the rules suggests that that would be

6 appropriate.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's 12:55, we're

8 breaking for lunch, and we will reconvene at

9 2:00 p.m.

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

11 matter went off the record at 12:55 p.m. and

12 resumed at 2:17 p.m.)

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We're back in

14 session. Today is voting day and we will

15 quickly complete the topic of crops. Where we

16 left off was on our non-decisive vote on the

17 classification of CSL as non-synthetic. We

18 didn't reach the two-thirds majority. Jay

19 Feldman, you had something you were going to

20 say right as we adjourned. Before I call on

21 you, I wanted to make a change of -- or a

22 clarification I should say.
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1 Colehour had asked about changing

2 the order of his vote and even though that

3 really hasn't been the way this Board has

4 operated, I think people are perfectly open,

5 that it's okay for people to change their vote

6 later in the order. Until voting closes it's

7 open, it's not like a chess game where you

8 take your finger off the button up here and

9 it's too late. So I think I made a mistake

10 there and if--hopefully we don't bog down our

11 system by people asking to change the order a

12 whole bunch here, okay. But technically I

13 don't think there's anything inappropriate

14 about it. 

15 MR. BONDERA: Thank you, Madam

16 Chairperson. Just for clarification, you're

17 talking about when you're taking the vote

18 around the table, but then at the end of that

19 when you tally the vote, you're not going to--

20 you're not--that's when the voting closes,

21 correct? 

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's right.
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1 Yes, and we're not going to routinely be

2 asking does anybody want to change their vote

3 or anything like that. It's just a courtesy

4 to new members who are, you know, looking for

5 guidance from some of their peers to see how

6 they would like to align on votes.

7 Okay, we're going to get started,

8 complete our last agenda item, just final

9 remarks on that before we move on to the

10 Livestock Committee. Jay. 

11 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. I had,

12 as you recall, I had suggested before the

13 break that we have another vote in the

14 positive on synthetic, but realized that the

15 procedure really requires us to go back to

16 Committee and formulate that as a motion, so

17 I am withdrawing that right now and we can

18 talk about that in Committee if we want to do

19 that at some future moment. 

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Okay,

21 we're moving on to the Livestock Committee.

22 The Livestock Committee has two voting items.
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1 The first item is Animal Welfare, Stocking

2 Rates. Do I have a motion? Do I have a

3 motion? Thanks. 

4 MS. FULWIDER: I'd like to make a

5 motion to accept the documents as per edits

6 that we made yesterday. 

7 MS. ELLOR: I'll second. 

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's been moved

9 and seconded to accept the Livestock Committee

10 document, Animal Welfare, Stocking Rates as

11 edited. Any discussion? Katrina.

12 MS. HEINZE: Could you review the

13 edits for us please and your rationale for

14 them?

15 MS. FULWIDER: I would like to do

16 a little introduction before I go to the

17 edits. First, the Livestock Committee

18 documents contain revisions as requested in

19 Thursday's Public Comment and by our fellow

20 board members. Animal Welfare is a complex

21 issue and the Livestock Committee has

22 requested that the NOP places no more than
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1 necessary into the rule and the rest into

2 guidance. The Livestock Committee wants to

3 assure consumers that the NOSB and the organic

4 community shares their concern for animal

5 welfare. 

6 The numbers in the space

7 requirements charts are to be considered

8 minimums and larger, enriched environments are

9 preferable. The charts alone would be

10 meaningless without outcome based standards

11 and species specific guidance documents that

12 are in the LC Work Plan for the fall. Four

13 previous Livestock Committee members who

14 contributed to these documents were either

15 here or emailed all of us to voice their

16 approval and support of the documents. The

17 Livestock Committee reviewed U.S. and

18 international animal welfare programs and

19 consulted with Temple Grandin. The current

20 Livestock Committee passed these documents

21 unanimously. The handling, transport,

22 slaughter and slaughter document contains
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1 industry standard requirements and has been

2 edited to support the small local plants. 

3 The only additional language that

4 needs to become industry standard protects the

5 newborn calf. If we succeed in passing these

6 documents today, they will be reviewed and

7 reworked by the NOP before being posted for

8 another period of public comment. If the NOP

9 finds a problem, they will come back to the

10 Livestock Committee for clarification or

11 correction. With that, I would like to go

12 through the revisions we've made to these

13 documents.

14 Okay, under recommendation, okay.

15 I'll read this paragraph, most of this is new

16 here, to satisfy the Board. The language

17 shown in the following pages is recommended

18 for rulemaking. The Livestock Committee

19 respectfully requests that the National

20 Organic Program places only what is necessary

21 into rule and the remainder into guidance.

22 The Livestock Committee wants to assure
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1 consumers that the organic industry practices

2 a high level of animal welfare. The Livestock

3 Committee does not wish to unnecessarily

4 increase the paperwork burden or certification

5 costs for the organic community. 

6 Under 4, shelter, designed to

7 allow for, that's it. We added dairy before

8 calves, there to designate that it is dairy

9 calves that may be housed in individual pens

10 rather than beef calves because it's a species

11 specific situation. We also deleted calves

12 over two months of age shall not be tied,

13 because that would be a problem for our small

14 organic dairy farms. Then above the charts,

15 we added here in this sentence the values

16 presented in the following charts are minimum

17 amounts only, and provision of larger areas of

18 enriched environment is encouraged. So that's

19 all the edits that we made to this document,

20 if you want to discuss these before going on

21 to the second document? 

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?
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1 Steve.

2 MR. DEMURI: In the Committee's

3 mind do you feel like you've addressed all the

4 public comment concerning--concerns they had

5 with the previous edition? 

6 MS. FULWIDER: Yes, I believe we

7 have, and we have had support from a number of

8 the groups that are here, and a number of the

9 farmers have also come up and expressed their

10 support. 

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

12 MS. HEINZE: I am wrestling with

13 this one. We heard a lot of public comment

14 about the impact of these access to pasture on

15 small farmers and certifiers and the

16 paperwork. So I appreciate that you added the

17 language encouraging the program to do as much

18 as possible in guidance. My question for you,

19 Mac, is if it ends up as guidance, which is

20 what I would prefer, what are the implications

21 for that burden of paperwork for certifiers?

22 MR. STONE: Guidance doesn't
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1 necessarily help at times when there has--

2 sometimes a hard, fast rule gives the

3 certifier some credibility in having a

4 producer meet a standard, versus one

5 certifier's interpretation is different than

6 another. And then if one is a little lenient,

7 then producers can start certify shopping, et

8 cetera. So it's really tricky, and I have not

9 spent enough time with the Committee and with

10 the Program and with the ACA to know which of

11 these outcome based, which of these numbers,

12 should be where. But it's a pretty critical

13 juncture, I guess, of how to make that

14 delineation.

15 And Madam Chair, while I've got

16 the mic, if--so I would like to work with the

17 Committee and all as a certifier and I raise

18 all of these animals except pigs because my

19 mother-in-law said they smell too bad. There

20 is, you know, how do we dovetail with the FDA

21 and inspections on the other document with the

22 other regulatory bodies? I don't know without
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1 talking to the Program. Richard Matthews made

2 some pretty strong statements about working it

3 through the system and it's ability to go and

4 I don't understand enough about that. But

5 ultimately I guess my real concern is we

6 maintain some degree of specie or site

7 specificity to allow the vast array of

8 production systems to still work and not be

9 too prescriptive. 

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

11 discussion? Joe Dickson.

12 MR. DICKSON: Yes. Like Katrina,

13 I've been wrestling with a couple of areas of

14 this one too. I think, you know, in the last

15 day or so, I've probably changed my mind on

16 sort of how to vote on this recommendation

17 probably six or seven times, which to me is

18 probably a sign that I don't feel 100%

19 confident voting for this. And my

20 reservations largely stem from the fact that

21 you know, we did hear yesterday from a number

22 of stakeholders in the organic community. We
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1 heard from companies, we heard from producers,

2 we heard from certifiers. We heard from a

3 number of entities who asked this Board to

4 withhold this recommendation and to work a

5 little bit more on polishing it and getting it

6 ready for prime time. 

7 On the other side, we also heard

8 today and yesterday from many former members

9 of this Board who've worked very long and hard

10 on this recommendation. You know Wendy's been

11 shepherding this recommendation for the last

12 18 months, and we've probably had, you know

13 hundreds of hours of Livestock Committee work

14 and calls on this. I mean it represents a lot

15 of thinking and a lot of very careful work and

16 a lot of expertise and you know, the danger of

17 holding it back is that you know, its

18 something that a lot of people are clamoring

19 for. The program has asked for, many

20 certifiers are looking for, and you know it

21 is--at the end of the day, we do owe the

22 animals in organic production a higher and
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1 more prescriptive and more careful standard of

2 care.

3 So it's--you know, I see really

4 good arguments on either side of the aisle for

5 passing this recommendation or for working on

6 it a little bit more, and I would be

7 interested in getting the overall thoughts of

8 the Board for a bit of group discussion on

9 where everyone sort of feels. 

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina and then

11 Barry. 

12 MS. ELLOR: Yes, we've had a lot of

13 input on both sides, you know, people saying

14 please, you know, get us something so that

15 there will be a standard that we can follow

16 and that everyone will have to follow. We've

17 heard a lot on that side and we've heard a lot

18 on you know, this is okay but you know, it

19 needs to be better.

20 So we've been at this since, I

21 think it was November 2007, when Kathleen

22 Marion came in front of the board and asked us
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1 to get started on this process, and honestly,

2 I've never seen quite so much public support

3 for a recommendation as I have. It might not

4 be enough but it's more than I've ever seen

5 before. 

6 So this is year four, we could pull

7 it back for another six months. I'm not sure,

8 you know, if we could figure out a better way

9 and I've heard some talk about this, to work

10 directly with our constituency during

11 committee work, that would be great. That

12 would save us a lot of this trouble, but you

13 know so far we haven't quite figured that out.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Barry. 

15 MR. FLAMM: Like Joe, this is kind

16 of a dilemma for me and I realize the whole

17 time I've been on the Board, Livestock has

18 been working on this, and I know how much work

19 has gone into it and I trust the people and

20 good people doing it.

21 On the other hand, there was such

22 a volume of comments before the meeting that
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1 I studied and read and then I've heard a lot

2 of comments here, and when I thought that the3 -and was told that the public's--these

4 concerns were addressed and revisioned, and

5 then I would hear from people here in the

6 audience that their concerns hadn't been met

7 and, frankly, it's been changing. I haven't

8 been able with all else that's going on to be

9 able to sort it all out in my mind.

10 I mean I really want to see it go

11 forward and I want to see good animal welfare

12 and I don't--but I'm not sure if it's flawed,

13 which some people think it is, we'll do more

14 harm than good by releasing it now. So that's

15 just off the top of my head comment. 

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John. 

17 MR. FOSTER: So I somehow magically

18 found time to study this, and as list sunset

19 petition centric as crops has been, it was

20 actually really refreshing to read something

21 that was narrative and full of obvious

22 thought. I come to these kinds of things
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1 always deferring to the existing regulation

2 and I'm one for whom for most things, I think

3 the rule is pretty good, but obviously the

4 wiggle room is in implementation, inspection,

5 review, certification and that variability I

6 know is maddening. 

7 So my bias going in, and I've said

8 this before, is not to be prescriptive unless

9 absolutely necessary, and my instinct says

10 that, and a pretty good chunk of the public is

11 still saying that. So I'm--I haven't decided

12 yet actually, but to be honest, but I'm--I

13 want to hear more comment but I need to hear,

14 I would like to hear, where--what is the

15 specific, a specific example, pick anyone,

16 that could not have been managed by what's in

17 the regulation already? That will give me an

18 idea of specific case. 

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Go ahead, Wendy. 

20 MS. FULWIDER: I guess we're not

21 exactly sure what you mean. 

22 MR. FOSTER: If you could pull out
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1 any example from the recommendation that there

2 is absolutely no way that could have been

3 addressed under the existing interpretive

4 ability that remains to certifiers from

5 language already in the regulation.

6 MS. FULWIDER: I think maybe that

7 would be a great question for Mac, as a

8 certifier. 

9 MR. STONE: Thanks, John. 

10 MR. FOSTER: Welcome, aboard. 

11 MR. STONE: Yes. There was

12 discussion, and frankly, I had dinner with

13 Jeff Moyer last night to talk specifically.

14 He felt very strongly that the work of the

15 Committee and the conversation, his

16 recommendation--now I'm getting to your--but

17 his recommendation was they've done the work,

18 the program is going to start drafting some

19 proposed rule and the guidance document, et

20 cetera.

21 So there's a lot of work yet to be

22 done, let's get it in the pipeline and let's
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1 move on. My concern with that is if this

2 recommendation goes out to the certification

3 world and those producers that are sitting at

4 their computers or BlackBerrys watching this

5 recommendation and see there some specificity

6 that just doesn't seem right, will it cause

7 some angst in the conversation to where it's

8 not as fluid of a conversation? So that's a

9 concern I have of that.

10 But the way we interpret in our

11 program, in Kentucky, if you look at the

12 birds, the birds are feathered, the animals

13 don't have manure, they're not dealing with

14 mud, somatic cell counts are going to show you

15 on dairy quality standards, et cetera, and the

16 animal's look and whatever.

17 So there are ways -- we've been

18 operating without this type of level to this

19 point and frankly, I think we still can. I've

20 told some of you the reason I agreed to be

21 nominated for this board was I'm still fairly

22 upset about the pasture rule and its
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1 implementation problems in the field at the

2 farm level and at the certifier level, and I

3 see this going that same direction.

4 So personally I think it can be.

5 We imposed the -- maybe it's a consumer view

6 of the farm. Do the animals look healthy?

7 Our feed conversions look right? Do the

8 facilities look well maintained, et cetera,

9 without having to go to this? But other

10 certifiers haven't had that luxury that we

11 have, and some of the testimony that we've

12 heard is these birds don't ever need to go

13 outside; you're going to make me--all my birds

14 are going to die if you make me put them

15 outside and we have to get these birds

16 outside. Whether this document gets them

17 outside or not I don't know because right now,

18 the rule says you've got to get them outside.

19 Does that answer your question?

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

21 discussion? Tina then Nick. 

22 MS. ELLOR: The first welfare
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1 standard we came out with as a committee was

2 an outcome based standard which we thought was

3 great and we really thought that was what

4 people wanted, and it was just that sort of

5 recommendation, and the certifier community

6 said there's just no way, we can't do that.

7 We need numbers. And now we brought numbers

8 back and then we're being told no, we can't

9 have numbers, so I'm flabbergasted.

10 I mean I would like to see a

11 combination of both because it is the outcome

12 that's important. You know, it's the actual

13 animal welfare and if we need a combination of

14 numbers and the outcome based part that we

15 hope to work on and present next fall, I think

16 that would be ideal. Numbers to hold people's

17 feet to the fire, but outcomes to say this is

18 a process but this is what we're looking for.

19 So I don't really know the best steps. We've

20 taken this step with the numbers. We hope

21 that the next step would be the outcome based

22 standards.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick? 

2 MR. MARAVELL: I sympathize with

3 Wendy. Yesterday, I tried to ask several

4 times from the groups that were coming up and

5 talking to us well, if we didn't get it right6 -and I'm not on that Committee just so people

7 know--but if we didn't get it right, where was

8 the process, what was lacking here and I

9 didn't ever get a good answer.

10 So I think the committee tried very

11 hard. I think we are hearing though that

12 members of the community would like to come

13 together on this, and I would suggest that

14 giving it one more shot might be worth it if--

15 all right you can't, like you just said, Tina,

16 you can't have it both ways. First we give

17 you the numbers; no, we don't want numbers.

18 If we didn't give you the numbers the first

19 time, you wanted the numbers.

20 All right, so we've got both

21 approaches out there. We've got tremendous

22 willingness from the industry to get together
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1 on this. All right, let's do it, but I don't

2 feel comfortable where it is right now and so

3 that would be my suggestion.

4 I think Wendy has done a great job

5 of doing this and trying to put it into the

6 form that the committee wanted it to be in.

7 So let's make up our minds, but let's pull

8 together on this and let's get a group that

9 can work with this Committee, and I think the

10 people are here, you know who they are and

11 let's do it. That would be my suggestion, but

12 I don't know how you feel about that, Wendy.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac had his hand

14 raised, and then Wendy. 

15 MR. STONE: A couple of specifics.

16 We heard the dairymen say that their stalls

17 are 32 square feet, 3 X 8 I guess they are.

18 The math on the chart at the 10 square feet

19 per 220 pounds I think it was, I emailed my

20 office, the average Holstein at 1500 pounds,

21 that would be 68 square feet per cow, average

22 Holstein. So they would essentially double
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1 their barn space and that is a huge investment

2 for them to maintain of bedded space.

3 I'm not sure just how--and just for

4 relative, our birds are on the grass all the

5 time. Some of the pictures I saw that if

6 those--some of those barns, if they were in a

7 wet climate, they couldn't raise those birds

8 organically in my opinion under the systems

9 that they have. They could go outside but they

10 didn't really want to, and in a wet

11 environment that just would not work in an

12 organic system.

13 But our birds, I don't know how you

14 want to figure it, on a given day, they'd have

15 21 square feet per bird for the layers, but

16 since they move once a week around the

17 pasture, that would be 1109 square feet per

18 bird, if you--depending on how we're looking

19 at that. So the stocking density or stocking

20 rate, it's two different things.

21 Broilers are about one and a half

22 square feet per bird on a given moment of
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1 time, but over their lifetime they've covered

2 84 square feet per bird. So those are the

3 kinds of the things that we can get to, to

4 kind of get some of your specifics, John. 

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy, did you want

6 another turn? Okay, Wendy. 

7 MS. FULWIDER: For the tie stalls

8 you know, the space requirements that we have

9 listed there are for loose housing. They are

10 not for tie stalls at all. The document--or

11 free stalls, you know and we had the language

12 in there to change that previously, we went

13 over that the other day. So that has been

14 remedied, but the space requirements for the

15 poultry, you know, that--if it's two square

16 feet outdoors that's the size of their pasture

17 per bird, and if they want to split that up

18 and rotate birds that's up to them; if they

19 want to provide more space we certainly

20 encourage that. 

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

22 discussion? Steve, Colehour, Katrina. 
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1 MR. DEMURI: Just a quick question,

2 it might have been up there and I missed it.

3 What was the committee vote on this

4 recommendation? The final recommendation?

5 MS. FULWIDER: We were unanimous.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour? 

7 MR. BONDERA: I just want to say

8 that as a committee member, that the amounts

9 and kinds of feedback and consideration and

10 shifts even in this last week, have made it so

11 that people that I've talked to or people who

12 have interacted with me say a whole range of

13 things including that they can't even

14 understand what the modifications are, that

15 some of these things are too complicated.

16 So I think to try to address the

17 question that you just asked, you know, we

18 haven't voted on the current form of it. This

19 was when we last voted on it, it was

20 unanimous. So I think that there are some

21 pieces of it that it seems like the biggest

22 thing I'm hearing is that there does need to
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1 be more time and more input that several of

2 you have already suggested, and I think is

3 what we need to have, which is a different

4 kind, an additional kind of dialogue to make

5 these more of coming from the whole organic

6 community, and I think that that's what feels

7 at this point in time like it's missing. It

8 feels like it's being directed to or down

9 rather than with, and that's I think where I'm

10 at in this process and that issue. 

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, clarification

12 then. This is not actually a committee

13 recommendation at this point. This is a

14 motion from the floor that did not go through

15 our agreed upon due process of being a

16 committee document and we just need to be

17 really clear on that. That's quite different

18 than how we run things. 

19 MR. MARAVELL: Please explain for

20 the uninitiated. 

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: A member of the

22 NOSB has brought forward a recommendation and
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1 it has been seconded that a committee did not

2 vote on in its current iteration. Our due

3 process is for committees to bring

4 recommendations that they've voted on to the

5 floor. Now we don't have anything that

6 prevents any one member from making a motion

7 on anything at any given time. Now it might

8 be ruled out of order if it's out of order.

9 That's important for us to all approach this

10 as not being a committee document though.

11 This is a motion from the floor. Katrina. 

12 MS. HEINZE: I had a comment. I am

13 vaguely remembering sometime in the last four

14 years that we had a similar situation with

15 last minute edits, and the committee took the

16 vote at the Board meeting. So that might be

17 an option. Can I proceed with my question? 

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure. 

19 MS. HEINZE: So this is to the

20 Program if I may or I'll ask you and then you

21 can ask the Program. Okay, several meetings

22 ago we had a recommendation, I can't remember
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1 what it was, and the Program said what do you

2 want us to do with this if it passes? And I'm

3 wondering, that question intrigues me on the

4 animal welfare because I'm struggling, just

5 like Joe, we have heard an overwhelming number

6 of public comments that say please take action

7 on this. We need the Board to send a signal

8 that we care about our animals. 

9 The counterbalance with that is

10 this is a very complicated topic and we can

11 take it back and work on it, but chances are

12 in six months when we come back, there's still

13 going to be stuff to work on. So I'm

14 wondering if we do pass it in its current

15 form, are we giving you something that you can

16 work with and continue to iterate to the right

17 place or do we need to do the work? I know

18 that was a complicated question. 

19 MR. MCEVOY: Well, whatever--if you

20 do pass a recommendation, we'll work with it.

21 One thing to--as a little bit of context here,

22 is that the OIG report from last year
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1 identified a number of different areas that

2 needed clarification. They found

3 inconsistency in terms of how the certifiers

4 were implementing the rule, and one of the

5 areas was around outdoor access for poultry.

6 So we've tried to address that through draft

7 guidance. We'll be putting out final

8 guidance.

9 The recommendation from the Board

10 would help give the Program some clarity of

11 what the Board would like us to do, and we'll

12 take a look at that and determine whether or

13 not we have to go back to the Board to clarify

14 certain areas; are there areas that we would

15 put into guidance or areas that need

16 rulemaking?

17 If it goes into guidance or

18 rulemaking, the process is for guidance we put

19 out a draft guidance, we get public comment,

20 and then we put out final guidance. If it

21 needs rulemaking, then there's the proposed

22 rule, public comment, take into consideration
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1 all those comments and then come out with a

2 final rule change.

3 So if you don't pass anything at

4 this meeting, then we have the discussion

5 documents that you've had, all the discussion

6 here at the meeting, the transcript that will

7 help us in terms of trying to understand where

8 you want to go. It'd be more definitive if

9 you come out with a recommendation for

10 guidance or recommendation for rule change. 

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

12 discussion? Mac? 

13 MR. STONE: So, Madam Chair, does

14 that in effect, give the Livestock Committee

15 professional staff for them to work with to

16 help them so they don't have to do it all, and

17 in fact may strengthen their work and support

18 them that they've kind of been working on

19 their own, if you will? 

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I think that's

21 above my pay grade question. That would be a

22 question for the Program. Before we ask that,
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1 let's see what the makers of the motion have

2 to say.

3 MS. ELLOR: So, first I just want

4 to comment on Colehour's comment about working

5 with the community. We've been going back and

6 forth with this very issue with our community,

7 formally, informally, at meetings, between

8 meetings, since 2007. We do have a lot of

9 interaction with our community, and I think

10 that we've grown together and closer on what

11 we would like the final result to be, and

12 perhaps we're not close enough yet. But we've

13 certainly gotten a lot closer than we were in

14 the beginning.

15 We have a lot more approval, I

16 think, than we did to start with. So I think

17 we're headed in a good direction. I'll let

18 Wendy make this determination. I'm the

19 seconder, she made the motion; but perhaps

20 she'd want to pull it back right now and get

21 back with the Committee, since we did not vote

22 on these changes as a Committee, which is an
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1 important issue.

2 MS. FULWIDER: I would also like to

3 note that we have had certifier input as far

4 as edits that we have made and document that

5 we had put forth in committee. 

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Not yet. Wendy and

7 Tina, did you have a rescinding of motion?

8 MS. FULWIDER: Yes, we'll rescind

9 the motion on this.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And the second is

11 okay with that?

12 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. The next

14 agenda item for the Livestock Committee is

15 animal handling transit and slaughter

16 recommendation. Before I move on to that, was

17 there another motion on stocking rates, animal

18 welfare? Hearing none, I'm moving onto the

19 next agenda item, Animal Handling Transit and

20 Slaughter Recommendation. Do I have a motion?

21 Call to repeat the question. The next agenda

22 item is Animal Handling Transit and Slaughter
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1 Recommendation. Do I have a motion?

2 MS. FULWIDER: Yes, I make a motion

3 that we have a look at the document; accept

4 the document?

5 MS. ELLOR: And I'll second for the

6 sake of discussion.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Maker of the

8 motion, can you please restate your motion?

9 MS. FULDWIDER: I would like to

10 accept--okay, I would like to make a motion to

11 accept the Animal Handling Transit and

12 Slaughter Document.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

14 MS. ELLOR: Yes, I'll second.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

16 MS. ELLOR: I guess I'd like to

17 bring up--and this is--this all seems very

18 insane to me, but have we made significant

19 changes to this document since the Committee

20 voted, and if so, we're in the same situation

21 we are with the last document.

22 MS. FULWIDER: That is correct.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, so we--what

2 just came out of that discussion is that we

3 have another motion from the floor that is not

4 a document that's been voted on by Committee,

5 and any further discussion? Steve?

6 MR. DEMURI: Maybe just a question;

7 was there a reason why the Committee didn't

8 vote? You didn't have time or--

9 MS. FULWIDER: We've just been busy

10 making edits, and that's been our focus.

11 MS. ELLOR: Yes, I think in our

12 rush to please everybody, that we felt like

13 they weren't especially substantive changes

14 but having heard comments since then, they're

15 more substantive I think than we thought to

16 start with. Is that completely confusing?

17 Anyway.

18 MR. DEMURI: No, I totally

19 understand. I mean we're under time

20 pressures. Would there be a possibility to

21 delay this vote to give you guys time in the

22 next break to vote on this? It depends on how
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1 badly you want to be voted on today.

2 MS. ELLOR: Yes, and I would say,

3 you know, once again we have more support from

4 the community than we have in the past;

5 documents, we still, even within the

6 Committee, we've been finding in the past day

7 or two discussion aren't completely

8 comfortable and feel like we need to pull

9 these back. So I think at the end of this, I

10 would ask that we withdraw the motion and take

11 both documents back to Committee and present

12 them again next fall. I'm disappointed, but

13 I can definitely see the good in that.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

15 discussion? Mac and then--Joe did you--just

16 Mac.

17 MR. STONE: If the program has been

18 asked by OIG to develop proposed rule or move

19 forward, can in fact the Committee work

20 closely with staff, frankly, to have the

21 resources that they provide to help the

22 Committee in moving the conversation along or
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1 is that necessary?

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Miles McEvoy.

3 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, well we'll

4 certainly be working with all the committees

5 on all of the work that you have on your

6 agenda. At the same time as we're working on

7 any kind of proposed rule or draft guidance,

8 we do consult with experts in the field, which

9 may include members of the NOSB, but there's

10 kind of two separate things. If we're working

11 on guidance or developing rules, there's a

12 whole bunch of people that we're working with

13 to come up with the best proposal possible.

14 In terms of the Board business, you have your

15 agenda that you're working on, your work plan,

16 and we will provide technical support for the

17 work that you're doing as a Committee or as a

18 Board.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, any further

20 discussion? Okay, go ahead.

21 MS. FULWIDER: We withdraw our

22 motion.
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1 MS. ELLOR: And that's fine with

2 me.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, the motion

4 to recommend the Animal Handling Transit and

5 Slaughter Recommendation has been withdrawn.

6 I'd like to ask the Livestock Committee

7 whether they intend to bring these items back

8 for voting later today so we can manage our

9 time. We're quite behind today. That was a

10 head shaking no for the record.

11 MR. DICKSON: Could I ask that the

12 --this is not an issue the Livestock Committee

13 discussed during our break huddle and report

14 back following that?

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's fine with

16 me. Okay, yes. It's 3:00 p.m. We were set

17 to finish voting 15 minutes from now. We have

18 14 more items for voting. Those are just

19 checking in on some facts here. We're going

20 to move into Handling Committee. 

21 MR. DEMURI: Thank you, Tracy. Our

22 first vote this afternoon is for a listing of
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1 attapulgite. So at this point I'd like to

2 make a motion to list attapulgite to the

3 National List, section 205.605(a). 

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Is there a second?

5 MR. STONE: I'll second.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

7 Hearing none and seeing none, Katrina.

8 MS. HEINZE: Steve, I think we've

9 got one public comment on this but I'm fuzzy.

10 Could you recap that?

11 MR. DEMURI: We did have one public

12 comment from Jim Riddel who had a concern over

13 possible heavy metal contamination in the

14 production of attapulgite. It was more of a

15 concern than a actual fact of it, but he did

16 bring that up in his comment.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

18 discussion on attapulgite? Jay.

19 MR. FELDMAN: Can you just quickly

20 review again what it's used for and all that?

21 MR. DEMURI: If it gets too

22 technical, I'm going to refer it to John
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1 because he was the lead on it. He didn't have

2 enough to do, so we gave him attapulgite. Its

3 use is for clarification of oils basically,

4 vegetable oils for food production.

5 MR. FELDMAN: On the essentiality,

6 what was the thinking there?

7 MR. FOSTER: The thinking was that

8 while there is bentonite already on the

9 National List, the physical structure, the

10 crystalline structure is slightly different

11 making attapulgite slightly more--a little

12 more effective in certain--some applications,

13 and for which bentonite would be less

14 appropriate, less effective. Then also the--

15 there's a slight preference toward attapulgite

16 which, according to the information at hand,

17 does not require an acid activation. Our

18 understanding is, again, from the information

19 available that bentonite does require that,

20 and we felt it was preferable to have that as

21 an option, perhaps leading toward removing

22 bentonite down the road for what we--what
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1 sounds like to be a more favorable material

2 which isn't exactly essentiality I know, but

3 it's certainly interrelated with that, and but

4 it kind of tipped the scales so that the

5 increased efficacy over bentonite in some

6 applications, there's enough utility there.

7 Because it's otherwise preferable, that kind

8 of tipped the scales.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

10 discussion? Jay and then Tina.

11 MR. FELDMAN: I'm sorry. I'd like

12 to ask the processors whether this is

13 something you would think you'd be using down

14 the road or does it have applications outside

15 your venue?

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

17 MS. HEINZE: We don't process oils.

18 I don't have an answer for you.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina.

20 MS. ELLOR: I just wondered what

21 the Committee vote on this was?

22 MR. DEMURI: This one was
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1 unanimous. Six yes, zero no, one absent. But

2 --excuse me, that was for synthetic/non3 synthetic. Five yes, one no, one absent.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Any

5 further discussion? Steve.

6 MR. DEMURI: I need to backtrack a

7 minute, thanks to Katrina's reminder. We do

8 have to take a synthetic/non-synthetic vote on

9 this material before we do the motion to list.

10 So I'll have to rescind my previous motion.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. And is the

12 second okay with the rescinding? 

13 MR. STONE: Yes.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Do I have a

15 motion on synthetic versus non-synthetic for

16 this material?

17 MR. DEMURI: So I would like to

18 move that attapulgite be listed as non19 synthetic on the National List.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

21 MR. FOSTER: I'll second.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's been moved and
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1 seconded. Any discussion on the

2 synthetic/non-synthetic determination of this

3 material? Okay. We'll begin voting. Where

4 are we? We'll begin with Wendy.

5 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

6 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wait. An

8 affirmative vote declares this material

9 synthetic or non-synthetic? Okay, just to be

10 crystal clear, a yes is non-synthetic. Yes.

11 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

12 MR. WALKER: Yes.

13 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

14 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

15 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

16 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

17 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

18 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

19 MR. FOSTER: Yes

20 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

21 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes. That's 14
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1 yes, zero no; motion carries. Do I have a

2 motion on attapulgite re-listed to the

3 National List?

4 MR. DEMURI: Yes. I'd like move

5 for the listing of attapulgite to the National

6 List 205.605(a).

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

8 MR. STONE: Second.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And again, this is

10 a petition to list the material?

11 MR. DEMURI: That's correct.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's been moved and

13 seconded, any discussion? Colehour.

14 MR. BONDERA: Just for

15 clarification and I apologize. And I'm

16 actually not looking there, I'm looking at my

17 computer screen so I'm a teeny bit worried I'm

18 looking at the wrong thing, but according to

19 what's here, it says "with annotation as

20 noted, attapulgite allowed as a processing aid

21 in the handling in the plant and animal oils,"

22 and that's not what you read into the motion.
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1 And that's--and so I'm just wondering if your

2 motion is what you said, or if it's what I'm

3 reading, because they don't match.

4 MR. DEMURI: Good point. You are

5 very correct. It should read "attapulgite

6 allowed as a processing aid in the handling of

7 plant and animal oils." Thank you.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Is the second okay

9 with that correction?

10 MR. STONE: Yes, Ma'am.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

12 discussion? All right. Any recusals for

13 conflict? Further discussion? Hearing none

14 and seeing none--oh, Colehour.

15 MR. BONDERA: I apologize again;

16 however, before you rescinded the previous--

17 this motion the first time, and we went back

18 to the previous motion, and then there was a

19 question about the vote on this one that you

20 didn't--you never addressed because we went to

21 the previous one. And I would still like to

22 hear the answer to that question, which I'm
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1 not going to be able to recite properly, but

2 it was can you please tell us about the vote

3 for this motion?

4 MR. DEMURI: Certainly. The

5 committee vote was for listing, five yes, one

6 no, one absent.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

8 discussion? Okay well, hearing none, we will

9 begin voting with Tina.

10 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

11 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

12 MR. WALKER: Yes.

13 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

14 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

15 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

16 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

17 MS. HEINZE: No.

18 MR. STONE: Yes, Ma'am.

19 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

20 MR. BONDERA: Abstain.

21 MR. DICKSON: Yes

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes
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1 MS. FULWIDER: Yes

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's 12 yes, one

3 no, one abstention; motion carries. Handling

4 Committee, the next material on our voting

5 sheet is CAPP.

6 MR. DEMURI: Yes, CAPP, otherwise

7 known as calcium acid pyrophosphate, was

8 petitioned to us to add to the list in

9 205.605(b) for use as a leavening agent in

10 baked goods. So I move for the addition of

11 calcium acid pyrophosphate to the National

12 List 205.605(b)--

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve, you need to

14 do the synthetic/non-synthetic first. 

15 MR. DEMURI: Thank you. One of

16 these days I'll remember that. I would like

17 to move for listing of calcium acid

18 pyrophosphate to the National List as a

19 synthetic.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

21 MR. DICKSON: Second.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Joe Dickson
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1 seconded. Katrina? 

2 MS. HEINZE: I'm not sure that

3 language is right. I think you want to

4 classify it as synthetic. Not list it as a

5 synthetic. Sorry.

6 MR. DEMURI: So I will rescind my

7 first motion. 

8 MR. DICKSON: Yes, I'm fine with

9 that

10 MR. DEMURI: Okay, so I move that

11 we classify calcium acid pyrophosphate as a

12 synthetic on the National List.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second

14 on that classification?

15 MR. BONDERA: I'll second that.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion on

17 the determination of this material as

18 synthetic/non-synthetic? Hearing none and

19 seeing none, we'll proceed with voting. Nick?

20 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

21 MR. WALKER: Yes.

22 MR. FLAMM: Yes.
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

2 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

3 MS. TAYLOR: No.

4 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

5 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

6 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

7 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

8 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

10 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

11 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's one no, 13

13 yes; the material is classified as synthetic.

14 MR. DEMURI: Okay, the next motion

15 is for listing calcium acid pyrophosphate to

16 the National List 205.605(b) for use as a

17 leavening agent in baked goods.

18 MR. STONE: Second.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac Stone seconded.

20 Any discussion? Steve and then Katrina?

21 MR. DEMURI: The vote for listing

22 on this material in the Committee for listing
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1 was zero yes, five no and two absent.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

3 MS. HEINZE: I just want to

4 highlight that we did receive written public

5 comment on this and verbal public comment.

6 Only one and I appreciate that the petitioner

7 didn't bring in lots of people. But a key

8 question in the Committee was essentiality on

9 this material. We had hypothesized that one

10 of the reasons it might be a useful addition

11 to the list was that it was a non-sodium

12 leavener, and so we did hear testimony to

13 that. And I just wanted to, in the midst of

14 everything we've discussed, just bring that to

15 everyone's attention so that they know that

16 you have it. Or that we did receive that.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

18 discussion? Hearing none and seeing none, any

19 recusals on calcium acid pyrophosphate? Okay

20 hearing none, let's proceed with the voting.

21 Reuben.

22 MR. WALKER: No.
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1 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

2 MR. FELDMAN: No

3 MR. DEMURI: No.

4 MS. TAYLOR: No.

5 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

6 MR. STONE: No.

7 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

8 MR. BONDERA: No.

9 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

11 MS. FULWIDER: No.

12 MS. ELLOR: No.

13 MR. MARAVELL: No.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tally is five yes,

15 nine no; motion fails. Handling Committee,

16 the next material on the agenda is SAPP. S-A17 P-P.

18 MR. DEMURI: Yes, the next item is

19 sodium acid pyrophosphate, petitioned to the

20 Handling Committee to be used in an expanded

21 manner. It's already listed for use as a

22 leavening agent, but the petitioner would like
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1 it to be expanded to be used as a sequestrant

2 on cooked and uncooked produce. So I'll make

3 a motion first for the classification. It

4 looks like there's a typo on the--looks like

5 there's--isn't an X in the synthetic box on

6 that copy. But it was voted as a--we did vote

7 as a synthetic up there.

8 MR. MCEVOY: It's already on the

9 list as a synthetic.

10 MR. DEMURI: True. So we don't

11 need to vote on it again, for this use? I

12 wouldn't think so. Okay.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No sweat.

14 MR. DEMURI: Good. That's one less

15 vote. Okay, so I move for the expansion to

16 the listing of sodium acid pyrophosphate to be

17 used as a sequestrant on cooked and uncooked

18 produce, to National List 205.605(b).

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

20 MR. STONE: I'll second.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion? Steve.

22 MR. DEMURI: I'll mention again that we
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1 did take a vote on this in Committee and the

2 vote for listing was zero yes, six no, and one

3 absent.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay?

5 MR. FELDMAN: So this came down to

6 essentiality as well?

7 MR. DEMURI: That's correct. We

8 did a survey of produce, organic produce

9 manufacturers that could potentially use this

10 and not any one that we contacted said they

11 would use it if listed.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

13 discussion? Katrina.

14 MS. HEINZE: So this is a material

15 that does require some more disclosure on my

16 part. So Cascadian Farm makes frozen

17 potatoes. The petitioned use for this is on

18 frozen potatoes. We do not currently use this

19 material; we use apple juice. 

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

21 MS. HEINZE: Just so you guys know.

22 I'm--is a question for you guys on whether--
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1 I would ask if folks think I need to recuse,

2 let me know. We don't intend to use it.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

4 discussion? Okay any recusals for conflict of

5 interest? Discussion? All right, hearing

6 none and seeing none, we will proceed with

7 voting. Barry, you'll vote first.

8 MR. FLAMM: No.

9 MR. FELDMAN: No.

10 MR. DEMURI: No.

11 MS. TAYLOR: No.

12 MS. HEINZE: No.

13 MR. STONE: No ma'am.

14 MR. FOSTER: No.

15 MR. BONDERA: No.

16 MR. DICKSON: No.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No.

18 MS. FULWIDER: No.

19 MS. ELLOR: No.

20 MR. MARAVELL: No.

21 MR. WALKER: No.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: 14 no, zero yes;
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1 motion fails. The next groupings of items for

2 the Handling Committee are Sunset 2012

3 205.605(a) items; the first item is enzymes.

4 MR. DEMURI: That is correct. I'd

5 like to move for the re-listing of enzymes to

6 the National List 205.605(a).

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

8 MS. HEINZE: Second.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

10 Steve.

11 MR. DEMURI: In my motion I should

12 have probably stated that there is an

13 annotation, "must be derived from edible, non14 toxic plants, non-pathogenic fungi or non15 pathogenic bacteria."

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Second okay with

17 this corrected listing, or reading of the

18 listing?

19 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay any

21 discussion? John.

22 MR. FOSTER: This is a question
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1 I've been wondering about for a long time.

2 Are there any of these materials that are

3 derived from pathogenic toxic things? Is

4 there? I don't know of any. I've never heard

5 of any. Is there a rationale for this

6 annotation? Did that come up in the research

7 on the material?

8 MR. DEMURI: You know I went back

9 and looked at the transcripts from when this

10 was first listed back in the '90s and I didn't

11 see anything in there that alluded to any

12 pathogenic organisms that they could be made

13 from, but there must have been some discussion

14 at some point, some of those--they're meeting

15 notes, not really transcripts, so they're not

16 very complete.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

18 discussion? Oh, Miles has a clarification.

19 MS. BROWN ROSEN: This is Emily

20 Brown Rosen. I'm trying to remember why

21 that's all on there, but I think it was

22 because there are other enzymes that are not
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1 from plants or fungi or bacteria so they could

2 be synthetically altered or whatever. So that

3 was why, so they wanted to clarify that the

4 natural sources had to be--it may be over

5 redundant, but Lisa says also there's going to

6 another TAP review coming up since the animal

7 enzymes expire in 2013, and so we're going to8 -the committee has asked for a technical

9 report to sort of combine them all, and we'll

10 have better answers at that time.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Katrina?

12 MS. HEINZE: I think this is a good

13 example of why it's important to respect the

14 passports even when we don't have

15 transparency, because I'm not sure any of us

16 really wants to take off the non-pathogenic

17 just in case we don't know.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Is this--John.

19 MR. FOSTER: I'm delighted to leave

20 the annotation the way it is. My question was

21 more about the toxic pathogenicity feature of

22 that, not necessarily the conventional or GMO
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1 side of it. But it was those qualifiers I was

2 most interested in. But let's leave it the

3 way it is. I'm all for that.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And this is one of

5 those unique materials that's actually a

6 category of materials where each individual

7 type of enzyme isn't necessarily a separate

8 listed and reviewed material on the National

9 List. Any--Steve.

10 MR. DEMURI: Yes, I'll mention--

11 you can probably read it but I'll mention it

12 anyway, that the Committee vote was five yes,

13 zero no and two absent for re-listing.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

15 discussion? Okay we'll start--any recusals?

16 Conflict? Okay. The voting will start with

17 Jay.

18 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

19 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

20 MS. TAYLOR: No.

21 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

22 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.
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1 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

2 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

3 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

5 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

6 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

7 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

8 MR. WALKER: Yes.

9 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's one no, 13

11 yes; motion carries. Next material on our

12 agenda is potassium iodide. 

13 MR. DEMURI: This is--there's two

14 listings for potassium iodide that are up for

15 sunset today, and this is the one that's in

16 605(a) non-synthetics allowed. So I move for

17 the re-listing of potassium iodide to the

18 National List in 205.605(a).

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

20 MR. DICKSON: Second.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

22 Joe.
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1 MR. DICKSON: Katrina brought up a

2 question yesterday or two days ago during the

3 discussion as to whether removing this--

4 actually I guess this has to do more with the

5 605(b) listing anyway, so I'll save it for

6 that part of the discussion. Never mind.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

8 Hearing none and seeing none, any recusals for

9 conflict of interest? Okay, let's start the

10 voting with Steve.

11 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

12 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

13 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

14 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

15 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

16 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

17 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

19 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

20 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

21 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

22 MR. WALKER: Yes.
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1 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

2 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's 14 yes, zero

4 no; motion carries. The next group of

5 handling materials on our agenda is Sunset

6 2012 205.605(b). The first material is

7 potassium iodide, the synthetic.

8 MR. DEMURI: Okay. As I mentioned

9 earlier this is for potassium iodide again.

10 This is the synthetic listing. The--let me

11 make a motion that the Handling Committee

12 recommends a renewal and annotation change for

13 the following substance, Nutrient--sorry,

14 prepared the wrong on. Hang on a second, wrong

15 group. Synthetics allowed, potassium iodide

16 for use only in agricultural products labeled

17 "made with organic specified ingredients or

18 food groups prohibited in agricultural

19 products labeled organic."

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

21 MR. STONE: I'll second.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?
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1 Steve.

2 MR. DEMURI: I'll let Joe give you

3 the particulars on this, but this is a dual

4 listing as we mentioned. And in the Committee

5 vote for re-listing we voted zero yes, six no

6 and one absent.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Joe.

8 MR. DICKSON: Yes, my comment from

9 the other listing which is appropriately

10 applied here is that Katrina brought up the

11 other day that one commentor had expressed

12 their support for continued listing of

13 potassium iodide because they use it as a

14 sanitizer and had not specified which listing

15 that applied to. And I have confirmed with

16 that commentor that it is the 605(a) listing,

17 so removal from 605(b) would not negatively

18 impact their use of the substance.

19 MR. FELDMAN: I'm sorry. Could you

20 repeat that?

21 MR. DICKSON: Yes. The commentor

22 who commented that the removal of--or they
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1 supported the continued listing of potassium

2 iodide without specifying whether they were

3 talking about the A or B listing, and we have

4 confirmed that they were referring to the A

5 listing, which is remaining.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

7 discussion? Any conflict of interest? Okay,

8 we'll begin the voting with Jennifer.

9 MS. TAYLOR: No.

10 MS. HEINZE: No.

11 MR. STONE: No ma'am.

12 MR. FOSTER: No.

13 MR. BONDERA: No.

14 MR. DICKSON: No.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No.

16 MS. FULWIDER: No.

17 MS. ELLOR: No.

18 MR. MARAVELL: No.

19 MR. WALKER: No.

20 MR. FLAMM: No.

21 MR. FELDMAN: No.

22 MR. DEMURI: No.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's 14 no, zero

2 yes; motion fails. The next 205.605(b) item

3 is tocopherols. 

4 MR. DEMURI: Okay, as Tracy

5 mentioned this is a re-listing of tocopherols

6 to 205.605(b). It does have annotation, so

7 I'll make the motion. Tocopherols for re8 listing with the annotation "derived from

9 vegetable oil when rosemary extracts are not

10 a suitable alternative."

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Can I get a second?

12 MR. FOSTER: Second.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

14 Hearing none and seeing none, any recusals for

15 conflict of interest? We'll begin the voting

16 with Katrina.

17 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

18 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

19 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

20 MR. BONDERA: Yes

21 MR. DICKSON: Yes

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.
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1 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

2 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

3 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

4 MR. WALKER: Yes.

5 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

6 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve?

8 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

9 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's 14 yes, zero

11 no; motion carries. The next material on the

12 agenda is chlorine materials annotation under

13 205.605(b). Do I have a motion?

14 MR. DEMURI: Yes, I would like to

15 move for the recommendation as posted for an

16 annotation change to chlorine materials in

17 Section 205.605(b) in the National List.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

19 Oh.

20 MR. FOSTER: I'll second.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve do we need to

22 read the annotation in at this time? Okay.
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1 MR. DEMURI: Yes. I'm going to have

2 John do that. Let me mention that what you

3 saw in the presentation on Tuesday is a bit

4 different than what we have at this point

5 because of public comment we received. We did

6 go into committee yesterday and change the

7 annotation slightly. It's not a huge change,

8 but I'll let John run that by you right now.

9 MR. FOSTER: The listing would read

10 "chlorine materials (calcium hypochlorite,

11 chlorine dioxide and sodium hypochlorite) may

12 be used up to maximum labeled rates for

13 disinfecting and sanitizing food contact

14 surfaces. Chlorine materials in water used in

15 direct crop or food contact is permitted at

16 levels of proof by FDA or EPA for such

17 purpose; provided there is an intervening step

18 in place sufficient to ensure that chlorine

19 concentration in residual water coming into

20 contact with organic ingredients or products

21 does not exceed the maximum residual

22 disinfectant limit for the chlorine material
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1 under the Safe Drinking Water Act. Chlorine

2 in water used as an ingredient in organic food

3 handling must not exceed the maximum residual

4 disinfectant limit for the chlorine material

5 under the Safe Drinking Water Act"

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Is the second okay

7 with the annotation as read in?

8 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Any

10 discussion? Jay?

11 MR. FELDMAN: Can you tell us how

12 this is different from the other annotations?

13 MR. FOSTER: I'll get that. It is

14 designed to complement or be aligned with the

15 draft guidance and mostly likely the final

16 guidance that the NOP put out. It specifies

17 levels of food contact, concentrations of the

18 chlorine at the point of food contact, which

19 the current annotation does not. And there

20 has been a fair amount of call from processors

21 to have some regulatory language that

22 supports current practices, which this does.
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1 So this really is--I think of it as a

2 clarification that brings us that regulatory

3 clarity that supports current practices.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay?

5 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you for that.

6 I was trying to figure out it differs from the

7 previous committee recommendation. So I think

8 --I'm trying to figure that out. Is there--

9 there's something in the original that talked

10 about rinse with potable--

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Can we go ahead and

12 try to answer that question Jay?

13 MR. FELDMAN: --rinse with potable

14 water?

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina?

16 MS. HEINZE: The change is the

17 rinse with potable water to--provided there is

18 a intervening step in place efficient to

19 ensure that chlorine concentration in residual

20 water, et cetera. 

21 MR. FELDMAN: For us lay people,

22 could you explain that?
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1 MS. HEINZE: And the reason for

2 that is that under some food safety

3 regulations with certain sanitizers, you can't

4 do a rinse with the potable water. So we

5 needed to provide other intervening steps. So

6 for example, with some sanitizers, there can

7 be a drying time. So like in a yogurt plant,

8 you would rinse with sanitizer, maybe leave it

9 over the weekend, or a product purge or things

10 like that. So there's other intervening steps

11 you can do to remove the chlorine that are not

12 necessarily a rinse with potable water, and

13 Emily has a comment, Tracy.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Emily Brown Rosen.

15 MS. BROWN ROSEN: I think we need a

16 little clarification here. We did have the

17 draft guidance out this fall and we had a lot

18 of comments on that and we got that comment

19 also about intervening steps. Now as you

20 originally had written this, it was consistent

21 with our guidance and that sanitizers used as

22 equipment do not need intervening steps. This
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1 seems to me to say that you don't--you need

2 some--you don't need a potable rinse when it's

3 used in direct contact with food products. Is

4 that your intent?

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Which sentence are

6 we having questions about right now?

7 MS. BROWN ROSEN: The sentence is

8 unclear to me. It says "chlorine materials in

9 water used in direct crop or food contact is

10 permitted at levels approved by FDA or EPA for

11 such purpose, provided there's an intervening

12 step in place sufficient to ensure that

13 chlorine concentration in residual water

14 coming into contact with organic ingredients

15 or products does not exceed the maximum

16 residual disinfectant level." There's a

17 couple of problems with that sentence. Are

18 you saying that--yes, what is residual

19 water,(a); and are you saying the intervening

20 step comes before the water contacts the

21 product? Normally you would--that was not

22 what I understood from the comments we'd
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1 received on this.

2 MR. MCEVOY: What was the reason

3 for changing from the previous proposal?

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Go ahead, John.

5 MR. FOSTER: To allow something

6 other than a rinse would potable water, like a

7 product purge, like air drying, like something

8 other than that, because water in some

9 circumstances, some dairy plants for example,

10 I'm answering the question that was the

11 intent.

12 MS. BROWN ROSEN: Okay, because

13 there was other--a comment about air chilling

14 of chicken that we received in the draft

15 guidance and we did investigate that and found

16 that there are other approved materials that

17 can be used, and there is generally not

18 chlorine in the water, when they're air

19 chilling of chicken. So we didn't think it

20 was necessary to have this additional

21 language.

22 MR. FOSTER: Air chilling of
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1 chickens was not why we changed it.

2 MS. BROWN ROSEN: There was concern

3 that you couldn't rinse an air cooled product

4 with potable water because you didn't want to

5 add more water, but you don't necessarily have

6 to put the chlorine in the air chilling

7 either.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: What's the urgency

9 level of the Handling Committee voting on this

10 document today?

11 MR. DEMURI: It's not urgent in our

12 estimation. We would have preferred to have

13 had the NOP Draft Guidance first, but maybe

14 they were waiting for us for that to come up.

15 MS. BROWN ROSEN: It's a sunset

16 material though, yes? Chlorine is a sunset

17 material?

18 MR. MARAVELL: Madame Chair, do we

19 have a break coming up where maybe the

20 Committee could go buzz-buzz?

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Oh, just a moment,

22 before we decide to do rewriting at the
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1 breaks, I want to determine what's absolutely

2 necessary here. Is an annotation change

3 absolutely necessary, or might we petition an

4 annotation change or propose an annotation

5 change later as the program has advised us we

6 can do?

7 MS. BROWN ROSEN: It's not a sunset

8 material so you can postpone it till later if

9 you'd prefer.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, so the

11 clarification we just received this is not a

12 sunset material and for the 2012 docket; there

13 is not urgency. How does that handling

14 committee feel about pulling this back in for

15 rewrites in Committee after the meeting?

16 MR. DEMURI: I'm fine with that.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do any other

18 Committee members have a different opinion. I

19 mean Handling? Okay.

20 MR. STONE: Well, that's fine.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Would you mind

22 withdrawing your motion?
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1 MR. DEMURI: I withdraw my motion.

2 MR. STONE: Me too, yes.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, the motion

4 has been withdrawn. We have one more material

5 on the Handling Committee Sunset 2012

6 205.605(b), Nutrient, vitamins, and minerals.

7 Steve, will you please read the current

8 listing? 

9 MR. DEMURI: I'll just make a

10 motion to re-list on 205.605(b) of the

11 National List, Nutrients, vitamins, and

12 minerals in accordance with 21 CFR 104.20,

13 "Nutritional Quality Guidelines for Foods."

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

15 MS. HEINZE: I second.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, discussion?

17 Steve.

18 MR. DEMURI: We talked about this

19 on Tuesday, but let me remind everybody that

20 we had a previous recommendation we were

21 putting forth. We decided to pull that a few

22 weeks ago, a month ago or so. We were
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1 implored by the Program to proceed lest these

2 materials drop off the list if it didn't make

3 through sunset in time, if we wait until the

4 next meeting. So we decided the best course

5 of action would be to re-list it as it stands

6 now, so that we'll maintain its status on the

7 list, and we will go back and come back with a

8 more complete recommendation taking all public

9 comment into consideration at the next

10 meeting.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Lisa,

12 will you please scroll up so the NOSB members

13 can see the narrative explanation there at the

14 top of the document? This is the Committee

15 summary and this is a new summary based on new

16 comments. Steve, may I read that into the

17 record? 

18 MR. DEMURI: Certainly. 

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: The Committee

20 summary for this material is: "over 2,000

21 public comments were received on the renewal

22 of nutrient, vitamins, and minerals to
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1 205.605(b) in advance in the Spring 2011 NOSB

2 meeting. The Handling Committee has not had

3 time to review all of the comments. Much new

4 information has surfaced since the last time

5 this material was reviewed for listing to the

6 National List, including an important memo

7 from the FDA dated April 14, 2011. However,

8 the National Organic Standards Board has been

9 advised by the Deputy Secretary of the USDA

10 that we must vote--scroll please--that we must

11 vote on the sun setting of this material at

12 the Spring 2011 NOSB meeting. The Committee

13 foresees no unacceptable risks in re-listing

14 the material to the National List. The

15 Handling Committee wishes to review public

16 input with the intent of recommending an

17 annotation change in the fall of 2011." Any

18 further discussion? Jay.

19 MR. FELDMAN: Can I just ask what

20 the practical effect of this is in terms of

21 infant formula and other related matters?

22 Maybe the Department could help with that as
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1 well?

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That definitely

3 would be an enforcement question, and NOP

4 weighed in that with the memorandum at the

5 last meeting. Does the NOP have any input on

6 Jay Feldman's question? 

7 MR. MCEVOY: We outlined what our

8 next steps are, what's our action plan in

9 regard to this category nutrient, vitamins and

10 minerals, and we refer you to those comments

11 in the PowerPoint presentation which is on the

12 record and posted on the NOSB pages of the

13 website.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

15 discussion? Katrina?

16 MS. HEINZE: This is a follow up

17 question for the Program if you'll indulge me?

18 My understanding was that you were intending

19 to come out with proposed guidance this

20 summer. I guess I'm wondering if since we're

21 still working on an annotation, if we could or

22 should align those efforts so we don't have
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1 conflicting annotations list something of

2 what's included, or did I misunderstand your

3 timing for guidance on nutrients?

4 MR. MCEVOY: Well, what we do is

5 going to depend on what is the outcome here.

6 We do have proposed--we do have draft guidance

7 that is pretty much ready to be published

8 which move into clearance. I should clarify,

9 and that would be to basically state that the

10 understanding of what the meaning of 104.20

11 is, and what's included in that, and what

12 substances are included in that, and provide a

13 time frame for substances that are not

14 included in that to be petitioned, reviewed

15 and then go through the rulemaking process if

16 the Board wants them to be added to the list.

17 So that's what the intent to the draft

18 guidance is.

19 The draft guidance would be

20 published. We get 60-day comment period. We

21 would evaluate the draft guidance and then

22 come out with final guidance. So that--the
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1 time frame of that is going to be during the

2 time that you're working on any potential

3 annotation changes between now and the fall.

4 If we look at the track record of what we have

5 for the last draft, round of draft guidance,

6 we published it in October and we still

7 haven't put out any final guidance on those

8 draft guidance in the fall so that's what,

9 six, seven, months?

10 So I imagine we will have the draft

11 guidance out. We'll get the comments, but

12 final guidance will not be out before the fall

13 meeting. We'll continue to work with the

14 Board and the Handling Committee in particular

15 on this particular issue as we continue to try

16 to clarify what substances are approved by

17 the-- recommended for listing by the Board and

18 get that through the rulemaking processes as

19 we work through this whole issue.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

21 discussion? Katrina.

22 MS. HEINZE: Thank you for the
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1 clarification. We just--as we make this

2 transition, want to avoid being more

3 disruptive than we need to be.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

5 discussion? Okay, sounds like the discussion

6 is completed and we're ready to vote. Any

7 recusals for conflict of interest? Hearing

8 none, we will proceed with voting and the

9 voting begins with--somebody help me--Katrina.

10 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

11 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

12 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

13 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

14 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy?

16 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.

17 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

18 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

19 MR. WALKER: Yes.

20 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

21 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

22 MR. DEMURI: Yes.
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1 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: And the Chair

3 abstains. That will be 13 yes, 1 abstention;

4 motion carries. Next up is the Materials

5 Committee, and thank you Chairman Steve and

6 Handling Committee. Materials Committee has

7 two voting items at this meeting. The first

8 amends the chemical change definition.

9 MS. HEINZE: I was under the

10 impression that some folks had wanted a

11 break. I can do it either way, but--

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We'll take a 10

13 minute break. That puts us back voting at 4

14 p.m. sharp please.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 3:49 p.m. and

17 resumed at 4:06 p.m.)

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: NOSB members

19 please be seated. Tony has been transcribing

20 this meeting very diligently. Thank you very

21 much, Tony. We are now back in session, now

22 that all technical difficulties are solved,
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1 NOSB members are seated. We're ready to

2 proceed with Materials Committee votes. Next

3 will come Policy Development Committee votes.

4 And after that we'll move right into

5 committee work plans. 

6 So I'm going to go ahead and make

7 sure that Chairs are prepared to move right

8 into work plan discussions. I'd also like to

9 make sure that all Chairs know, and that the

10 public knows we don't announce our work plans

11 at this meeting. There's far too many, far

12 too much need to get back into committee and

13 prioritize. And so please know when we talk

14 about potential work plan items we're really

15 talking about a collection of potential items

16 that will need to be sifted through and

17 prioritized, and may or may not make the

18 committees' work plan. Thanks. 

19 Next up then is Materials

20 Committee items for voting. The first of

21 which is amending chemical change definition.

22 Do I have a motion?
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1 MS. HEINZE: Thank you Madam

2 Chair. Just so everyone knows the process I

3 will read the motion. Once we get a second,

4 I'll explain it. And then if we could do

5 discussion after that. 

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure.

7 Ms. HEINZE: OK. I move that we

8 rescind the April 2010 recommendation, adding

9 a second sentence to the definition of

10 chemical change. 

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

12 second?

13 MS. ELLOR: I'll second. 

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, Tina has

15 seconded. 

16 Ms. HEINZE: Okay. So just a

17 refresher for everyone on the Board, we have

18 the--I'm not going to do the full 20 minute

19 that you got before. But in November 2009

20 the NOSB passed our document on material

21 classification. We had some public comment

22 and other work that we had to do as a result
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1 of that. Part of that was addressing

2 substantial public comment that was very

3 concerned about the impact of the--of our

4 work on classifying materials that fell into

5 the certified organic category. 

6 In an attempt to fix that, we

7 added the second sentence to the definition

8 of chemical change. At the time we were

9 operating under the understanding that

10 everything we did on classification had to be

11 in the rule. We have since come to

12 understand that we have lots of flexibility

13 to do our work in guidance, which we think is

14 a much better approach for this. So we are

15 recommending that we pull back the second

16 sentence, and address the questions that came

17 up in public comment through guidance, not

18 through rule change. So that's why we're

19 recommending this change.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion? 

21 Katrina.

22 Ms. HEINZE: I should add that
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1 this passed the Committee with six yes votes,

2 zero no votes, and all the public comment

3 that we received supported this

4 recommendation. 

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further

6 discussion? Okay. I'm not going to call for

7 conflict on this one. Mac, we'll start the

8 voting with you. 

9 MR. STONE: Yes, ma'am.

10 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

11 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

12 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

14 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

15 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

16 MR. MARAVELL: Yes. 

17 MR. WALKER: Yes.

18 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

20 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

21 MS. TAYLOR: Yes. 

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina--
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1 MS. HEINZE: Oh, yes. 

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's fourteen

3 yes, zero no; motion carries. Next Materials

4 agenda item for voting on the topic of

5 Significant/Insignificant. 

6 MS. HEINZE: Thank you.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

8 motion?

9 MS. HEINZE: Same process here.

10 So I move to accept this update to the

11 public, and the proposed guidance that a

12 significant level of a synthetic substance in

13 the final material means a level exceeding

14 any applicable regulatory limits where in

15 effect for the material being classified, and

16 a level without any technical and functional

17 effects in the final material. 

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

19 MR. DEMURI: I'll second it. 

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It's been moved and

21 seconded. Discussion? Steve.

22 MR. DEMURI: I see that the
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1 Committee vote was four yes, two no. Can we

2 hear from the two that were opposed to it?

3 Or one of the two persons?

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We can as soon as

5 we do make sure everyone here knows that this

6 is not a sunset voting item and does not have

7 the same time line, if you will, as other

8 items. So that bringing this back to

9 committee is an option. I'm not suggesting

10 that's what we do, at all. I just want to

11 make sure that people know what our range of

12 options are here out the outset of

13 discussion. Jay, and then Katrina. 

14 MR. FELDMAN: Well, both Jennifer

15 and I, this is something we were dealing with

16 before Jennifer joined the Board, so I took

17 the lead on it, but Jennifer and I worked on

18 this together. So that was the vote. And you

19 wanted to know why? Okay. If you go to page

20 three of five in the Classification of

21 Materials document, Update and Proposed

22 Guidance Document, you'll see the basic
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1 theory there, and that is that the Board has

2 adopted a provision that allows for an

3 insignificant amount of synthetic to escape

4 review essentially. And correct me at any

5 point if you think I've misstated something,

6 Katrina. Because the view is that that level

7 of synthetic remaining in the input, the

8 allowable input isn't--is de minimus or

9 inconsequential, however you want to describe

10 it.

11 Our position, the minority, is

12 that the statute requires us to review

13 synthetics. It doesn't tell us at what

14 level, and therefore any level that appears

15 in the input should be subject to review.

16 Again, this has nothing to do with whether we

17 approve it or not, it just would subject it

18 to the National List review process. So

19 that's a simplified version of what we're

20 trying to do here. It's not--there are those

21 who have taken the position, just to paint

22 the other part of the spectrum, that any
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1 synthetic used in the production of an input,

2 in the formulation manufacture of an input,

3 should be evaluated regardless of whether it

4 shows up in the finished product that is

5 allowed for use in organic production,

6 because of our statutory responsibility. But

7 that's not what this is proposing. This is

8 saying only if it shows up should it be

9 considered significant, and therefore subject

10 to review by the Board. 

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina?

12 MS. HEINZE: Thank you, Jay. So

13 the majority feels that detectability is very

14 tricky to execute in the real world, that as

15 analytical technology improves, that that is

16 chasing to the bottom, and that there does

17 reach a point where amount detected is not

18 significant. And having taken a look at the

19 historical record for the NOSB, we felt that

20 the historical record shows that has not been

21 the intention of the Board, nor the community

22 in their classification decisions. So if you
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1 look at a number of decisions that have been

2 made--and I just blanked. It will come back

3 to me. That they do allow for these de

4 minimus levels, to use the words that Jay

5 said. Boards that have made that decision

6 have not felt that they were abdicating their

7 responsibility because the level was so small

8 that that constituted their review to say

9 that that did not constitute harm. 

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina, I want to

11 make sure I understand what we're referring

12 to here, since we took a piece out of a

13 document, that what we're talking about is

14 really the five percent, not product

15 composition of something that's significant

16 or insignificant in whether a product is

17 determined to be--a final product is to be

18 determined organic. Is that correct?

19 MS. HEINZE: That's a good

20 clarifying question. This only has to do

21 with classifying the material as synthetic or

22 not. So it has nothing to do with
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1 certification of organic. So let me answer,

2 I think there's a couple questions in your

3 question. So the first is if a synthetic not

4 on the National List is used to produce

5 something in handling, that material cannot

6 be certified organic, because the synthetic

7 is not on the list. Okay, so that was the

8 first question I heard. 

9 The other question that had come

10 up during discussion was the five percent of

11 EPA residue level that is in the statute.

12 This doesn't effect that at all. That is a

13 statutory threshold. This only has to do

14 with processing inputs used to make a

15 material that we are classifying. So one

16 that we are very familiar with, corn steep

17 liquor. The sulfur dioxide that is added to

18 that process, if it is, as we heard from the

19 scientific testimony, there is a small

20 residue remaining in that final material. If

21 you think that being able to detect that

22 sulfur dioxide at any level is significant,
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1 then you agree with the minority. If you

2 think there's some applicable regulatory

3 limits were in effect for the sulfur dioxide

4 and in corn steep liquor, and a level without

5 any technical or functional effect, then you

6 agree with the majority. Did that answer

7 your question, Tracy?

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It did, but you

9 took the five percent in a little bit

10 different direction than I was talking about.

11 So the example you gave was a crop input,

12 whereby, you know, all of that material is

13 going to be applied to a crop, for instance.

14 In the instance of non-organic materials used

15 in handling, that is only, what we're talking

16 about is the five percent composition of a

17 product. Correct?

18 MS. HEINZE: Yes, I understand

19 your question now. So an example there might

20 be de-oiled soy lecithin, which is a material

21 we reviewed a couple of meetings ago. Which

22 it's de-oiled with, if I remember correctly
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1 acetone. And the intention of that process

2 is to completely remove the acetone. But if

3 it's remaining in that final soy lecithin,

4 you know, you have to make the determination

5 of if it's there at significant or

6 insignificant level. And so this is an

7 approach to help classify that. So in the

8 minority, which is any detectable level, if

9 you subject that soy lecithin to testing and

10 find it, that soy lecithin is synthetic. 

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Having worked for

12 a company that did massive amounts of

13 detectable residue testing, I know a lot of

14 the issues around that, some of which are

15 just, it's inordinately expensive. But

16 setting that completely aside and acting as

17 if it was an irrelevant topic, for the time

18 being, it was a constantly moving target.

19 There is--when you get down to the absolute

20 newest technologies, there's false positives

21 that require retesting, and the level of

22 burden on a certifier to go that deep is,
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1 would be new to organic. We would definitely

2 be talking about something that we're not

3 doing right now. Just so in case there's

4 anybody wondering whether we're taking things

5 down a notch, no. This would be something

6 newly imposed on the system that we haven't

7 built in the current industry in consumer

8 products around. Jay?

9 MR. FELDMAN: From a certification

10 standpoint, this would be a requirement that

11 the manufacturer provide that data with a

12 paper trail, essentially that they're

13 certifying that in effect the residues of

14 whatever was used in extraction, say of a

15 material, show up in the final product at X

16 levels. This wouldn't require any work on

17 the part of the certifier, except to ensure

18 a paper trail that--which they normally do

19 anyway. So it goes back to the question, and

20 I think you need to finish the thought, I was

21 going to ask you, if it's deemed significant

22 what that does is it doesn't judge whether
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1 the product can be used in organic or not.

2 It simply requires us to review it. 

3 So if that, in a chemical age that

4 we live in where very small molecules can

5 have dramatic impacts on human development

6 and health, and the environment, we have,

7 again, if we're going to protect the long8 term credibility of this label for the

9 consumer we can't play it fast and loose, in

10 my judgment, with any level of a chemical.

11 The consumer wants to know that we've

12 reviewed it and that's all. And we're going

13 to make a judgment, as we have today, as to

14 whether that little bit amount amounts to

15 anything. And the TRs are going to see that

16 level and they're going to suggest to us

17 whether it's inconsequential or something

18 that's meaningful from a potential human

19 health or environmental effect. And I don't

20 think it adds that much work, and I suspect

21 every manufacturer actually knows what's in

22 its product. It's just a question of
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1 disclosing it and making it available to us

2 and to the public for review.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I have a question

4 for Jay. When you get down to parts per

5 million or parts per billion there can be a

6 fair amount of variation from batch to batch.

7 How do you propose a manufacturer document

8 and send those unique batch-related numbers

9 on through every production of organic

10 products?

11 MR. FELDMAN: Well, I mean we

12 could, the Department could provide guidance

13 on that. I mean I think we should get that

14 information. You know, if there's

15 variability we would get a range from zero to

16 .1, or from zero to whatever it is, part per

17 million, or part per trillion. We would get

18 that information. We would know it's there.

19 We would have done our due diligence in being

20 aware of this. When people come up to us and

21 say, did you know there's blah, blah, blah,

22 yes, we know it's there. We looked at it.
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1 We looked at the documentation through ATSDR

2 or whatever, and we've determined that that

3 level is not a problem, or what have you. So

4 that's how we would use it. We would

5 probably get a range of value that is a

6 range.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I thought you were

8 proposing absolutely no detectable?

9 MR. FELDMAN: I'm just, it's just

10 requiring us to review it. Is that correct,

11 Katrina? That in the insignificant

12 definition that goes up to the allowable

13 tolerance, which could be way up here,

14 because it's based on a food, an allowable

15 food residue. If you use the EPA tolerance,

16 then we wouldn't review it because the bulk

17 of that product perhaps was natural, non18 synthetic. It was extracted with a chemical,

19 say hexane, or something. And then we

20 wouldn't review it because it was deemed, the

21 hexane level was deemed acceptable by EPA in

22 the context of food exposure. We're not
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1 operating under that statute. That's a

2 different statute. It's a risk/benefit

3 statute. It has to do with exposure and

4 toxicity. We have to make our own judgment,

5 according to the law, on whether that

6 whatever remaining residue is acceptable

7 under our standard. So it doesn't doom this

8 chemical to non-use in organic, or no use in

9 organic. It simply is a question of whether

10 we ought to review it. That's the only

11 question on the table. Is that correct? 

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina?

13 MS. HEINZE: I think it's a little

14 bit more complicated than that, Jay. But,

15 yes, in its essence this is just about

16 classification. It is not about

17 compatibility. The--I just want--the

18 majority opinion lines with the

19 recommendation of the material work and the

20 direction that the Board has gone. When we

21 started classification work, our self22 described mission was to formalize already
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1 existing practices in the organic community.

2 And so when we asked the Material Working

3 Group to come together and help us clarify

4 this, this was what they recommended. So I--

5 it is a conundrum, to be honest, if this

6 doesn't pass. But if it does not pass, the

7 Material Committee will take it back and we

8 will continue to work on this. But the Board

9 does need to know that that vote would be

10 significantly different than past practices

11 of this Board, in my estimation. 

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Anyone else on the

13 Board who hasn't been heard from? Nick.

14 MR. MARAVELL: Katrina, what would

15 be your estimate of the real life impact of

16 this for the industry and for the Board if it

17 were not to pass? In other words, it might

18 change the practices of the Board. Do you

19 feel that this--I'm just curious. Do you

20 feel that you can get a sense of what this

21 would mean for the industry?

22 MS. HEINZE: I could, if it would
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1 be helpful, and if the Chair would indulge

2 me, I could summarize some of the discussions

3 we've had. I think understanding what the

4 impact would be would be pure speculation.

5 But certainly we've had quite a bit on both

6 sides. 

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I'd say if and

8 only if you can really summarize with your

9 tightest bullet points, please. 

10 MS. HEINZE: Okay. Handling- no

11 effect, because everything we have that's

12 classified is already on the list. Crops and

13 livestock, all non synthetics would have to

14 be reevaluated and reclassified, or

15 reevaluated for classification. The public

16 comment we've received is that hundreds would

17 be reclassified as synthetic, and then would

18 have to be petitioned to the Board. So I

19 think, on that most people seem to agree,

20 whether it's 50, or 100, or 200, there's

21 differences of opinion. What the effects of

22 that would be, there are differences of
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1 opinion. 

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you,

3 Katrina. John Foster?

4 MR. FOSTER: That was a perfect

5 entree to one of my questions. So a

6 synthetic processing aid, I know this is just

7 by classification. I get it. But, so

8 there's an allowed synthetic processing aid

9 that's calcium hydroxide. It's on the

10 National List, it's okay. It's used in sugar

11 manufacturing. And I know in the handling

12 context that sugar that I put probably too

13 much of in my coffee every morning is--it's

14 got a little bit of calcium hydroxide in it.

15 Now I know that, most people don't, I would

16 wager. So--and that's fine. I know that's

17 not going to be problematic relative to the

18 sugar I put in my coffee. If I take that

19 same sugar and put it into a fertilizer

20 blend, which I've done more than once, what

21 I'm hearing and I want to see if this is

22 correct, would that calcium hydroxide cause
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1 a question about the usability of the sugar

2 if I wanted to apply that sugar to my crops?

3 That would be one of the ramifications as I

4 just heard the argument. 

5 MS. HEINZE: As we've had

6 discussions in Committee, my understanding is

7 that's correct, but perhaps someone who has

8 more experience in material review could help

9 me with that. But that is my understanding.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Does the NOP want

11 to weigh in on that, since it really would be

12 an enforcement question?

13 MR. MCEVOY: Well, if you're

14 saying that the sugar--I guess if I

15 understand you correctly, you're saying that

16 a lot of food products would then be

17 considered synthetic and therefore if you're

18 making compost, you couldn't use those as a

19 feedstock in making compost, like food waste?

20 Yes, please clarify. 

21 MR. FOSTER: I was just sticking

22 with sugar, because I can kind of understand
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1 it. Is that there's a little, little bit, a

2 minute quantity of calcium hydroxide

3 remaining in sugar, even organic sugar, as

4 it's sold on the store shelves. If I'm a

5 small grower, and I've been that, and I want

6 to put sugar in with other stuff to foliar

7 feed my crops. If there's a little calcium

8 hydroxide in that sugar and I want to use it

9 as a fertilizer, or as a soil amendment,

10 foliar feed, I don't want to call to question

11 whether or not that sugar has somehow turned

12 into a synthetic item for the purposes of

13 crop input use. So if there's a little

14 calcium hydroxide left, that's synthetic and

15 that is measurable, so--but I want my vote to

16 make sure that I'm not going to make that

17 sugar be considered synthetic for the

18 purposes of crop production. And it sounds

19 to me like, that would be a fear of mine.

20 And sugar is just the tip of the iceberg.

21 And that's something that I have personal

22 experience with. I use that. I've made a
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1 blend with that, so I can put it in my coffee

2 and that's okay.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Let's go ahead and

4 let Program answer that. Okay.

5 MR. MCEVOY: Well, if you're going

6 to consider sugar as synthetic, then it

7 couldn't be used as an input unless it's on

8 the National List. 

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina. Actually

10 let me just check in real quick. Any other

11 members of the Board that haven't had a

12 chance to contribute here? Barry.

13 MR. FLAMM: I'll just say my

14 piece. I thought I knew where I stood on

15 this, but what Katrina has said really

16 confuses me in terms of the impact. I

17 thought the majority proposal was confusing,

18 unclear, where I found the minority proposal

19 understandable in terms of significance. But

20 I would not want the kind of consequences

21 that occur by, that you described, Katrina.

22 So that puts me in a neutral--in a further
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1 thinking mode. 

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: In respect to the

3 public, some of whom have plane tickets this

4 afternoon, we're ten minutes from our Federal

5 Register Notice Meeting ending time. We have

6 three more votes to take. And I would

7 respectfully ask my colleagues to, that we

8 move on with this vote, or we table the

9 motion. I'm not actually calling for the

10 question or ending debate, just making a

11 collegial request. Katrina.

12 MS. HEINZE: We know that, the

13 Materials Committee met at break, and we know

14 that this is a complicated decision. Our

15 preference would be to get a vote on this.

16 It was an informal poll, Jay. I'm sorry. I

17 couldn't find you. So don't--it wasn't a

18 slight. Our preference would to be take a

19 vote so that directionally we know which way

20 the Board is headed, so we can complete our

21 guidance work. 

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any further
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1 discussion? 

2 MR. FELDMAN: I just want to say

3 one last thing. It's problematic on both

4 sides, because the level you're proposing

5 here for guidance are levels that would be

6 illegal if they drifted onto crops in

7 organic--just, you know, I could come up with

8 examples on your side as well as the sort of

9 odd examples you're coming up with on the

10 other side. If the levels that we're seeing

11 drift, you know, onto organic, like a

12 pesticide drift onto an organic field, as we

13 described in the presentation the other day,

14 we wouldn't accept a tolerance of that

15 chemical in an organic field, but you're

16 asking us to accept the tolerance of that

17 chemical in an organic input. It doesn't--

18 it's not consistent. 

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina. 

20 MS. HEINZE: Our recommendation is

21 not to supersede the five percent of the EPA

22 tolerance. That's not--we at no time in
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1 Committee talked about that. So I just need

2 that on the record, that's not the intent,

3 has never been the intent, wasn't the intent

4 to the Material Working Group.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick. 

6 MR. MARAVELL: Katrina, I've heard

7 from you and others that it's quite possible

8 that there won't be tolerance levels for some

9 substances. That's highly probable. Then

10 what do we do in those cases?

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina.

12 MS. HEINZE: Then you look at the

13 technical and functional effect of that

14 material. So, it is late, but I will try.

15 So in John's sugar example, you would look at

16 it, if there's no applicable levels, you

17 would look at that calcium whatever it is and

18 say does it have any technical or functional

19 effect in the sugar in its use? That was our

20 intent. I would remind folks this is just a

21 little piece of our guidance puzzle, but it

22 is one that has hung up the Committee for
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1 seven months. And so the reason we brought

2 it here is because we need some direction

3 from the Board so that we can continue our

4 work. What I fear is that we're going to

5 just keep having this debate in Committee for

6 the next three years. So we need direction

7 from the Board. 

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's not going

9 to happen. So do we have anymore discussion?

10 MR. FELDMAN: I just beg to differ

11 with your interpretation of majority opinion.

12 You specifically say in there use OSHA

13 levels--

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay, do you mind

15 if I wait to call on you? Just--I was going

16 to call on the Program. They had something

17 to say. 

18 MR. MCEVOY: Yes, just to--I don't

19 if this is going to help or not. But we do

20 have a green waste guidance that's in the

21 Program Handbook that talks about inputs and

22 residues in inputs. And for input materials,
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1 we don't refer to the five percent of the EPA

2 tolerance level. It's the EPA--the five

3 percent of the EPA tolerance level is for

4 agricultural products that are sold, labeled,

5 or represented as organic, not for inputs

6 that are going into, as an input like a soil

7 amendment or fertilizer. So I don't know if

8 that helps, but if you have residues in

9 compost that are greater than five--well,

10 there's just no tolerance level for inputs.

11 The tolerance level is for food products. 

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay.

13 MR. FELDMAN: This is not an issue

14 of compost. This is an issue of allowable

15 materials in organic production and whether

16 they get reviewed or not. And we will simply

17 not be reviewing--it would be as if, you

18 know, take something like DHA. You would

19 simply not review it. I mean this is an

20 analogy. Something that's deemed hazardous

21 you would simply not review it even though

22 you know it's potentially hazardous, because
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1 it's found below the level at which it's

2 allowed in commercial products. That's

3 inconsistent with our mission and statute. 

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, this

5 discussion has just gone off topic. So,

6 we're suddenly starting to discuss other

7 materials that are right now in the petition

8 process and making predeterminations. It

9 would great if we could, for the purposes of

10 sharpening our discussion, rather than

11 broadening it out right now, that we talk

12 very precisely about the difference between

13 significant and insignificant. In fact, I'll

14 venture to say right now that we have moved

15 out of the realm of science. We're in the

16 realm of philosophy, and most Board members

17 probably know where they stand right now.

18 And we're probably going to just go around

19 and around. Does anybody disagree with that

20 assessment of where we're at? Okay. Any

21 further discussion? Then we will go ahead

22 and vote on the motion that's before us.
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1 Katrina, will you please restate the motion?

2 MS. HEINZE: Thank you, Lisa. I

3 move to accept this update to the public and

4 the proposed guidance that a significant

5 level of a synthetic substance in the final

6 material means a level exceeding any

7 applicable regulatory limits where in effect

8 for the material being classified, and a

9 level without any technical and functional

10 effects in the final material. 

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac, we're going

12 to start the voting with you. 

13 MR. STONE: I'm going to start with

14 no ma'am.

15 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

16 MR. BONDERA: No.

17 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

19 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

20 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

21 MR. MARAVELL: No. 

22 MR. WALKER: Yes.
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1 MR. FELDMAN: No. 

2 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

3 MS. TAYLOR: No. 

4 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I believe that five

6 no, nine yes. Madam Secretary please confirm

7 that tally. I want to see a show of hands,

8 please, on the nos, so we can double check

9 our count of five. Six. Okay, thank you. Six

10 nos, eight yeses; motion fails.

11 The last voting items of the day

12 are two--are Policies and Procedures Manual.

13 The first one is for Section 3 and 4, Vice

14 Chair Policy Development Committee

15 descriptions. May I have a motion? Or do I

16 have a motion? 

17 MR. FLAMM: Yes, there is a motion,

18 it's actually in Section 2 of the Policies

19 and Procedures Manual. Rather than reading

20 the entire statement, this is a change in the

21 language in the Policies and Procedures

22 Manual, I'll just read to you the change in
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1 the language. Under the position of Vice

2 Chair the language now adds "the Vice Chair

3 shall serve as member of the Policy

4 Development Committee and work

5 collaboratively with the Policy Development

6 Committee members on the maintenance and

7 upkeep of the Policy and Procedures Manual."

8 Under the Policy Development Committee role,

9 in parentheses we added "in collaboration

10 with the NOSB Vice Chair." I move that these

11 changes be accepted. 

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a second?

13 MR. FELDMAN: Second.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

15 Hearing none, we'll begin the voting. Oh,

16 John? No? Okay. We're going to start the

17 voting with John Foster.

18 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

19 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

20 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

22 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.
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1 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

2 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

3 MR. WALKER: Yes.

4 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

5 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

6 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

7 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

8 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

9 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's 14 yes,

11 zero no; motion carries. There's one other

12 voting item in the Policy Development

13 Committee, having to do with Section 4

14 Committee purview. Do I have a motion?

15 MR. FLAMM: This is a--we're

16 recommending a change in Section 5 of the

17 Policy and Procedures Manual. The

18 recommendation we put forward received a

19 couple of comments from the public that we

20 thought as a Committee improved upon our

21 language. We have retained the full intent

22 of what the Committee intended to do in that.
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1 I can do--that full language, I think is up

2 there. Maybe Jennifer would you read it

3 since my--

4 COURT REPORTER: Ms. Taylor, can

5 you turn on your mic?

6 MS. TAYLOR: Okay. Revisions of

7 Section 5 for the Policy and Procedures

8 Manual, procedures for completing committee

9 recommendations. Developing committee

10 recommendations follow these broad steps:

11 the Committee prepares a recommendation or a

12 discussion document, as agreed to in the

13 Committee Work Plan, in reference to page 32

14 of the Policy and Procedure Manual. Number

15 two, the recommendation or discussions

16 document is posted for public comment.

17 Number three, during the Board meeting, the

18 Committee presents its recommendation for

19 discussion by the full Board. Number four,

20 at any point in the process prior to the

21 Board's vote on the status of the

22 recommendation, the presenting committee may
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1 convene and vote to withdraw its

2 recommendation, based on approval of this

3 action by the majority of the members of the

4 committee. Number five, once presented the

5 Board votes on the committee recommendation.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do I have a

7 second? 

8 MR. DEMURI: Second. 

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any discussion?

10 Tina. 

11 MS. ELLOR: So, this doesn't take

12 away any of the Board members' rights to make

13 any motion on anything they want at any time,

14 correct? 

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's correct.

16 That's Robert's rules. Any further

17 discussion? All right. Last vote of the

18 day. We'll start with Colehour. 

19 MR. BONDERA: Yes.

20 MR. DICKSON: Yes.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes.

22 MS. FULWIDER: Yes.
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1 MS. ELLOR: Yes.

2 MR. MARAVELL: Yes.

3 MR. WALKER: Yes.

4 MR. FLAMM: Yes.

5 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

6 MR. DEMURI: Yes.

7 MS. TAYLOR: Yes.

8 MS. HEINZE: Yes.

9 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am.

10 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's 14 yes,

12 zero no; motion carries. Okay, the voting

13 portion of our meeting is now complete. We

14 will move into our last couple of agenda

15 items, Committee Work Plans. Again, these

16 are collections of draft items that

17 potentially committees will be working on.

18 Then we have other business as our very last

19 item. Jennifer, do you have a question?

20 MS. TAYLOR: I'm sorry. I have a

21 question. I would like to add to the agenda

22 that you were speaking of, if possible, a
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1 motion to get the sense of the Board in

2 regard to genetically modified materials.

3 Wow. Okay. I was suggesting--

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jennifer, do you

5 mind if--the appropriate place for that would

6 be at other business, and to bring it up

7 then. Okay. So we'll give you a placeholder

8 there. All right so let's move to each of

9 our Committee Chairs for their notion of

10 potential work plan items. Steve DeMuri,

11 Chair of the Handling Committee, do you mind

12 if I start with you?

13 MR. DEMURI: Certainly. On the

14 work plan for the next six months or so we

15 have nine 205.605 petition items: sodium

16 gluconade, silicon dioxide, to remove

17 Gibberellic acid, sulfuric acid, taurine,

18 ARA, dextrin, DHA, and sulfur dioxide, to

19 remove the annotation. We have six 205.606

20 items: annatto extract, CaraMunich malt,

21 barley beta fiber, beta carotene, sugar beet

22 fiber, and Bergamo bitter orange powder. We
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1 also have six 205.605(a) 2013 Sunset

2 materials, and two for 205.605(b). And we

3 have three other items, one nutrient,

4 vitamins, and minerals National List

5 recommendation for, we're going to go back to

6 the chlorine materials annotation

7 recommendation, rework that for the next

8 meeting. And then last item on the work plan

9 for the upcoming six months is we'll continue

10 being involved with the industry Flavor Task

11 Force, and work with them on their

12 recommendation development.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Next

14 Committee Chair. Katrina Heinze, Chair of

15 the Materials Committee. Are you ready to

16 go, or shall we move on? 

17 MS. HEINZE: Yes. Okay. We have

18 four items that we are hoping, that we are

19 planning on working on between now and the

20 fall meeting, and then we have a growing list

21 of things that we wish we had time to work

22 on. So obviously we will be working on
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1 classification. We heard loudly from the

2 community that they want us to complete our

3 work by the fall. So I expect we will have

4 some very robust debates, given the vote that

5 just happened. Then we are working on what

6 I'm calling a primer on the material

7 evaluation checklist, in collaboration with

8 the Program, to make sure that we're all

9 aligned on how we should be using that to

10 answer some of the questions that came up in

11 our most recent reviews. 

12 And then I have a note that we're

13 going to work with Crops on the sulfur

14 dioxide. So I will leave it to Crops on

15 whether we still need to work on that.

16 Finally we have quite a bit of work to do on

17 aquaculture. So those are the four that we

18 are hoping to do between now and the fall.

19 Just for the record, so people know the other

20 things on our work plan, we received several

21 informal requests during this meeting to

22 start a--to lead an effort of the Board to
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1 start a list of research projects that we

2 think need to be funded in relation to

3 materials. So, for example, fire blight

4 control. So that we were more transparent

5 about where we have needs. Then there are a

6 number of orphan materials, not really

7 orphaned, ignored materials. In September

8 2008 we tried to resurrect some materials.

9 I know this is near and dear to a number of

10 certifiers, that had been tabled by the

11 Board, but never taken up. They've been

12 taken from the table, but we've never done

13 anything with them. 

14 And then we have materials that

15 never got tabled, that have never been

16 reviewed. So we need to work through those

17 petitions as well. That is a perennial

18 comment from CCOF. And finally, we had

19 started last year some work to improve the

20 materials review process, so things like our

21 evaluation checklist better reflects the

22 different types of petitions we receive,
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1 optimizing the TR request form, and defining

2 what a good TR looks like. We still hope to

3 someday get to those. Thanks. 

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you,

5 Katrina. John Foster, Chair of the Crops

6 Committee. 

7 MR. FOSTER: Yes. Thank you. We

8 have some petitions in front of us, still;

9 ammonium nonanoate. I believe we still have

10 the ferric phosphate, the snail bait petition

11 in front of us. The indol 3 butyric acid.

12 Odorized propane. And PGML, which my mouth

13 cannot pronounce the real name of at this

14 time. Starts with propylene. The PGML is

15 how we've talked about it, for good reason,

16 up until now. We have--we will need at some

17 point to start working on 2013 Sunset

18 materials also. Copper sulfate, a couple of

19 listings for that. Ozone, peracetic acid.

20 And depending on how the inerts project works

21 out, the EPA lists three inerts were on the

22 2013 Sunset. We just need to keep visibility
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1 of that. Then calcium chloride is on 602.

2 That's up for Sunset also. 

3 I also, from taking some notes

4 today, something I think we'll probably end

5 up calling a transition plan for streptomycin

6 tetracycline. We will work with the

7 Materials Committee on sulfur dioxide, but

8 probably more to the point whether we're

9 focusing on, you know, products as

10 formulated, or products as they affect the

11 target, whatever it is. Obviously

12 monitoring, continuing to kind of monitor and

13 plug in as we need to on inerts. And I have

14 a note here just to keep track of when the

15 NOP's response comes out regarding prior

16 commercial availability work that the Board

17 did. When that comes out, I assume we will

18 want to kind of jump in and see what that's

19 like and how it's going to function in the

20 industry. 

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, John.

22 Joe Dickson, Chair of the Certification,
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1 Accreditation, and Compliance Committee. 

2 MR. DICKSON: The CACC has three

3 items on our work plan for the fall meeting.

4 The first one is the evaluation of materials

5 review organizations. The second piece of

6 that will be to develop a recommendation to

7 the Program on that topic for the fall

8 meeting. The second item is risk-based

9 unannounced inspections. From discussions

10 with the Program, we anticipate that they

11 will request the Board's assistance in

12 developing clarifications and guidance on the

13 role of risk-based unannounced inspections in

14 organic certification. We hope to receive

15 that request in advance of the fall meeting,

16 and if so, provide feedback to the Program on

17 that issue. The third topic for the fall

18 meeting relates to inspector qualification

19 and assessment. We hope to assist the

20 Program in establishing specific qualifying

21 criteria for inspectors working in various

22 types of production, in synchronicity with
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1 some projects that the Program may be working

2 on on this issue. 

3 On our back burner, items that

4 we're considering as a committee, but

5 probably will not have on the formal agenda

6 for the fall meeting, pesticide residue

7 testing, which is on our sort of long-term

8 work plan, but we can't really do much while

9 the comment period for the new proposed rule

10 is open. Retail certification, and the use

11 of processing aids in 100% organic products.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Joe

13 Dickson. Wendy Fulwider, Chair of the

14 Livestock Committee. 

15 MS. FULWIDER: Yes, we will be

16 bringing back the animal welfare and animal

17 handling transport and slaughter documents.

18 We will also be bringing the guidance

19 document to support each one of those. We

20 will be completing the omnivore diet

21 discussion document that will coincide with

22 the finding petition that's coming. We will
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1 also have the outcome-based standard

2 documents for each species that's listed on

3 the chart. And we will have species-specific

4 guidance documents that will be developed

5 with certifiers at the next meeting. 

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

7 much. Barry Flamm, Chair of the Policy

8 Development Committee. 

9 MR. FLAMM: We have several items,

10 at least tentatively on our work plan. The

11 first is NOSB membership and leadership

12 transitions, guidance clarification, and

13 Policy and Procedure Manual on the transition

14 period. This was something we had actually

15 worked on for this meeting, but needed more

16 time, so we pulled it. But we'll have that

17 for, we expect to have that for the fall

18 meeting. The issue of committee minutes and

19 availability and transparency has come up

20 recently, and we plan to look into that and

21 provide guidance for members. Also the

22 Policy and Procedure Manual has never
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1 identified the administrative team. So we

2 want to include that along in the Policy and

3 Procedure Manual, along with our other

4 organizational structures, and just list that

5 for the benefit of members and information to

6 the public. 

7 And finally, we got several

8 detailed, strong comments regarding conflict

9 of interest, and we've been requested by the

10 public to strengthen, or clarify, better

11 define, in part prescribe a statement, a

12 conflict of interest statement prior to--so

13 on an annual basis would be a way to say it.

14 At the request of several national

15 organizations, we are at least considering

16 that for our work plan. And that's all.

17 That's all we have at this time. 

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That concludes the

19 discussion of potential committee work plan

20 items. I see a question from Mac Stone. 

21 MR. STONE: I just happened to

22 notice that Lisa wasn't able to put the
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1 retail certification under the CACC work

2 plan. 

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Last

4 item of the day is for other business.

5 Jennifer, it sounded like you had something

6 in the category of other business. 

7 MS. TAYLOR: Yes. I wanted to

8 provide information about the great interest

9 that several of our speakers in the audience

10 over the week brought to our attention about

11 their concern for genetically modified

12 materials. but I wanted to get--provide

13 information to the Board, getting a sense of

14 the Board in that direction. 

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Would you mind

16 being, I guess just in terms of discussion,

17 a little more specific about what you're

18 looking for from the Board? 

19 MS. TAYLOR: What I was hopeful of

20 is that the information that I have, I wanted

21 to share with the Board, as well as provide

22 it to Barry, and so that it could be
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1 discussed further within the Policy

2 Committee. I'm sorry. I have some

3 information here in regard to several of the

4 participants during the meeting came up and

5 spoke about their interest and their concern

6 about genetically modified materials and

7 their integration within the organic

8 agricultural strategy. And so I have some

9 information here that I wanted to share with

10 the Board to get a sense of the Board and

11 their--and have them address that concern as

12 it was brought forth from the floor, and also

13 to have it integrated, perhaps, within

14 concern addressed by the Policy Committee and

15 Barry. 

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Were you going to

17 pass something around? Okay. I would ask,

18 since we've been given this material to read

19 and think about, and we've heard a lot of

20 information from the public, that rather than

21 being asked to read and sign a letter, say,

22 right here on the spot, that we would have an
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1 opportunity to study this a little bit. Jay?

2 MR. FELDMAN: Madam Chair, with

3 all due respect, this is an urgent matter for

4 agriculture, especially organic agriculture.

5 It affects conventional agriculture that's

6 non-GMO as well. I'd like to second

7 Jennifer's motion to have the Board adopt a

8 Sense of the Board statement. It's a four

9 paragraph statement. It would take us three

10 minutes literally to read. These are not new

11 issues. And we could then deliver this to

12 the Secretary of Agriculture for the National

13 Organic Standards Board. I think that would

14 be a phenomenally great thing to do at this

15 time. 

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I echo your

17 sentiment; however, something as important as

18 a topic of genetically modified organisms

19 having a four paragraph statement thrust

20 under our noses summarizing everything this

21 Board feels and is agreeing to seems very,

22 very hasty. By being members of the National
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1 Organic Standards Board, we have by default

2 taken a strong stand against GMOs. It's a

3 prohibited practice in the industry that we

4 serve. So I don't think we're starting out

5 wishy-washy here this week by anybody's

6 stretch of the imagination. And I don't

7 really like being put on the spot to sign

8 something when I feel like we have a whole

9 range of voices that could come and

10 contribute to such a letter, if we decided to

11 sign it. It doesn't take away from what

12 you're trying to do here, Jennifer. It just

13 feels that it's one person, one voice,

14 putting four paragraphs together as opposed

15 to a truly collective piece of work. Barry?

16 MR. FLAMM: I think what Jennifer

17 is trying to do is not rush you, but get a

18 sense of whether the Board is willing to do

19 this. And it's true that we're all concerned

20 and committed to limiting GMOs. But the fact

21 is things are moving in the other direction,

22 as evidenced by actions by the Secretary
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1 recently. So I think, myself, it's quite

2 appropriate that we express concern.

3 Whether--and I, I think Jennifer is just

4 asking for some sort of support, whether

5 we're interested in doing this, but she

6 doesn't want to waste time if we're not

7 committed to doing it. I think it is urgent,

8 as Jay puts out, but I also agree with you,

9 we might want to look at more closely, but I

10 think what we're trying to do--and I guess is

11 there a motion out there? I guess--

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: There was. Yes.

13 Is the motion, you said "get a sense," are

14 you wanting to get a motion of sort of

15 general agreement? Are you wanting a motion

16 of approving this document? 

17 MS. TAYLOR: I wanted a motion

18 providing information to the Board in

19 recognition of the concern that was brought

20 forth from the floor, from the participants,

21 and also that we have within our written

22 comments, that we would take notice of that,
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1 of that importance that has been brought to

2 us, as well as bringing our emotions together

3 somehow to address this, and to address it in

4 a formal fashion where we're talking about

5 it, or we're having it stated somewhere. And

6 that's the basis for that information that

7 you have. 

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour, and then

9 Joe. 

10 MR. BONDERA: Yes, I mean I just

11 agree that I think that, when I just glanced

12 through this, and I think about it more, I

13 think that the point is that it seems like

14 the public is saying, and I personally agree,

15 that there needs to be a--it's not

16 necessarily a letter, or statement, but

17 perhaps, but some action from NOSB on this

18 subject matter. And I think that that, it

19 seems to me, is what is being put forth, is,

20 you know, how can there be some action before

21 the next meeting, is I think what I'm

22 hearing. And I think the point is that
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1 Jennifer would like to hear what action can

2 we anticipate taking as a full Board before

3 talking about it again in November as a new

4 subject then, since it's now in Other

5 Business right now on the schedule where it

6 is. So I think that--

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Joe?

8 MR. DICKSON: The issue of

9 biotechnology and its relationship to organic

10 agriculture is so foundational and so

11 important, and has such far reaching

12 consequences for this industry, and this

13 community. As a member of this Board I do

14 not feel comfortable taking an action. As a

15 Board that advises the Department of

16 Agriculture on organic agriculture, the right

17 way to approach this is have it be taken up

18 by one of the committees, whichever committee

19 this Board deems is most appropriate to

20 consider it. And that it goes through the

21 process of full consideration and development

22 of ideas, like all of the other issues on the
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1 agenda. I don't feel comfortable with

2 approaching this in the last ten minutes of

3 a four day meeting. 

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

5 MR. MARAVELL: I think that it

6 would be appropriate to get a sense of the

7 Board, but not take a vote. Is there a way

8 to do that? To get a sense of guidance if

9 this is going to go into a committee? Would

10 it be appropriate to get that sort of sense

11 from the Board members? Their reaction to

12 this statement?

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I'm hearing a lot

14 of people give their sort of sense of this.

15 And it's been laid down on the transcript as

16 we speak. I've also heard a motion to give

17 a sense of the Board. I don't think we have

18 enough clarity to know what "sense of the

19 Board" means. I'm not sure exactly what I

20 would be voting on. Sense of the--is that a

21 commitment one way or another to writing a

22 letter that's materially similar to this
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1 letter right here? Is that what the sense is

2 that you would be looking for? 

3 MS. TAYLOR: What I'm thinking is

4 based on the concern, the grave concern that

5 we heard within the participation from the

6 audience this week, and also stated in our

7 information, our written comments, that it is

8 something that's on the hearts of people that

9 we're working with, with the farming

10 population, or with agribusiness. And it's

11 something that we need to address. We need

12 to address it ourselves and maybe come to an

13 agreement on that approach. We have that

14 basic approach anyway, just by being organic,

15 so to speak. But at the same time it is such

16 a strong threat to organic production that it

17 needs to be addressed in that manner as well.

18 And then also directed, as I suggested,

19 directed to perhaps the Policy Committee.

20 And maybe from that point we can have a

21 statement made? Maybe?

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Who hasn't had a
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1 chance to weigh in yet and would like to?

2 Anyone? Steve.

3 MR. DEMURI: I think we all agree

4 with the premise on the letter. I do. But

5 like Joe I would like to see it go through

6 the process and probably the Policy Committee

7 has a way to do it.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina, have you

9 weighed in on it? 

10 MS. HEINZE: I agree with Steve

11 and Joe. I guess my suggestion--I really

12 don't know what committee this would go to.

13 Perhaps that needs to be a discussion point

14 on the next Executive Committee call and we

15 can figure out what committee it goes to. 

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Anyone else who

17 hasn't had a weigh in? Okay. Tina. 

18 MS. ELLOR: I got the sense from

19 some of the comments too that people were

20 asking for a more concrete action that would

21 be part of organic certification as testing

22 for GMOs as well. And that might be a part
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1 of something we'd want to look for. And that

2 would probably go through Policy as well.

3 Right?

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Or CACC. Mac?

5 MR. STONE: I think at some point

6 there has to be a documented harm to justify

7 the concern at some point. Not--yes. 

8 MR. MARAVELL: Madam Chair?

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick.

10 MR. MARAVELL: What's been

11 expressed to me is that this is an issue that

12 eventually the Board is going to have to

13 address. So perhaps the way to view this is

14 we need to start referring this onto a

15 committee to let us know how to address this,

16 specifically with regard to Mac's comment

17 about showing harm. That might eventually

18 come to that. But right now, and we heard

19 the comments from the audience, we're not

20 exactly looking for that harm. So this--I

21 think it will have severe implications for

22 those of us who will be serving on this Board
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1 in the new few years. It's all over the

2 industry, and we need the appropriate way to

3 proceed. 

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I would like to

5 move to refer this motion to the Executive

6 Committee of the National Organic Standards

7 Board to take up at our very next meeting.

8 And to suss out exactly what people think is

9 the best course of action on this. That

10 would be a debatable procedure right now,

11 making that motion to refer to the Executive

12 Committee. That would need a second. And we

13 would need to debate it. It would give some

14 contour to the motion that you made.

15 Katrina.

16 MR. MARAVELL: I'll second. 

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. 

18 MS. HEINZE: I'm a little lost on

19 the procedure. Do we now have two motions

20 with two seconds? Maybe--Lisa? I don't what

21 to do now. 

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: To have something
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1 studied further you move to refer the motion

2 to a committee. It needs a second. It's

3 debated and--

4 MS. HEINZE: Yes, I think- Did

5 Jennifer have a motion too that Jay seconded?

6 I'm really--I'm just--I'm really tired. I

7 really don't know where we are. 

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Lisa?

9 MS. BRINES: Point of

10 clarification, so only one main motion can be

11 on the floor at the time. So we do have one

12 main motion, which has been seconded. You

13 could possibly rephrase the second motion to

14 amend the first motion. Or the first motion

15 could be withdrawn. But there should not be

16 two main motions occurring. 

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Barry

18 there's a typo in our Policies and Procedures

19 Manual we're going to have to fix. Okay. I

20 would move to amend Jennifer's motion, and

21 that we get a sense of the Board on the issue

22 of GMOs, by taking this topic immediately to
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1 the Executive Committee of the National

2 Organic Standards Board at the very next

3 meeting. 

4 MR. MARAVELL: I second. 

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Now Nick or the

6 seconder has to--you're okay with that?

7 Jennifer is okay with it? Okay. Thank you.

8 Discussion? 

9 MR. FLAMM: Not a discussion. I

10 just want to thank Jennifer for bringing this

11 very important topic to the Board and getting

12 it on the table. So thank you for getting

13 something moving on this, Jennifer. 

14 MS. TAYLOR: I said we thank our

15 participants for bringing it to our

16 attention. We know the need. So thank you.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: All right. We

18 have a motion. It's been amended. It's been

19 seconded. It's been okayed by the original

20 makers of motion and second. Any further

21 discussion before we vote? All right. Let's

22 start with Jennifer, your motion as amended.
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1 MS. TAYLOR: Yes. 

2 MS. HEINZE: Yes. 

3 MR. STONE: Yes ma'am. 

4 MR. FOSTER: Yes. 

5 MR. BONDERA: Yes. 

6 MR. DICKSON: Yes. 

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes. 

8 MS. FULWIDER: Yes. 

9 MS. ELLOR: Yes. 

10 MR. MARAVELL: Yes. 

11 MR. WALKER: Yes. 

12 MR. FLAMM: Yes. 

13 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 

14 MR. DEMURI: Yes. 

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That would be 14

16 yes,. zero no; motion carries. Any other

17 business? Okay. I'd like to thank the

18 members of the public who have stuck around

19 to the last minutes of--I think we're at

20 about the 2200 minute mark of our meeting.

21 We did make it. Thanks very much. I know we

22 imposed some protocols this time with
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1 meetings that have really started to take on

2 a freeform shape, that we're no longer

3 allowing for as many voices to come and speak

4 and join the conversation as possible. We've

5 essentially outgrown our old structure. And

6 we are thrilled that more public comment was

7 brought into regulations.gov than ever

8 before. I think the imposing of some contour

9 to our discussion had a real startling effect

10 the first day. Folks just weren't used to

11 three minutes, and they weren't used to

12 having us follow Robert's rules on our

13 discussion. But I thought things really

14 started to loosen up on Thursday. 

15 Thank you so much to everyone for

16 all the distances you traveled, and your

17 kindness and patience as we've deliberated.

18 Our next meeting is in Savannah, Georgia in

19 December. Lisa, what is the date? Do you

20 have that off the top of your head?

21 December. It's actually already posted to

22 NOP's website. 
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1 MS. AHRAMIJAN: I believe it's

2 November 29 to December 2 , that Tuesday to

3 Friday. 

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. So we will

5 see you all in Savannah. And the Spring 2011

6 meeting of the National Organic Standards

7 Board is now adjourned. 

8 (Whereupon, at 5:24 p.m. the

9 above-entitled matter went off the record.)

10

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clockwise 42:15

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Coordinator

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mother-in-law

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nearing 24:8

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neutral 319:22

never 18:22 117:21

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115:15 118:2

138:15,18 150:19

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newly 309:6

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115:15 187:14

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professional

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profound 85:19

profoundly 155:20

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Program's 80:8

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pronounce 337:13

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proper 93:5 120:18

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propylene 337:14

protect 310:7

protecting 115:15

protection 6:3 61:4

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protective 61:12,12

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providing 32:18

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provision 7:12

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prudent 61:18

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76:19 85:12 97:1

103:2,17 104:1,6

110:9,13 113:2

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116:18 141:18

142:17 146:16

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175:10 177:3

184:21,21 185:1,8

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225:4,13 230:2

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public's 231:3

publish 96:21

published 293:7,20

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pull 99:6 138:3

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121:18 131:10

132:5 156:10,13

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213:7,9 235:14

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245:20 248:5

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puts 77:17 296:13

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putting 33:22 34:5

64:8 96:13,17

117:5 193:3

205:21 216:21

245:7 289:21

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puzzle 322:21

PVC 72:1 74:3

pyrophosphate

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263:11 264:15

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P-P 266:17

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quite 32:9 71:13

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raise 19:9 104:17

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ramifications

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ran 45:9,11 134:20

range 9:12 241:12

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ranges 197:19

rare 116:3

ratcheting 15:8

rate 239:20

rates 3:14 48:10

221:2,10 248:17

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rationale 110:7

111:17,20 157:10

221:13 271:5

reach 218:1,18

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reaching 349:11

react 205:6

reaction 88:11

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read 6:19 18:15

25:2 26:10 43:13

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110:22 126:3

127:16 141:8

162:6,7 204:20

205:5 223:15

231:1,20 259:22

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280:22 281:9

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290:16 298:3

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reading 101:4

156:4 206:2 218:4

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ready 13:13 16:1

42:10 46:12 58:3

72:22 74:9 104:22

195:22 228:6

293:7 295:6 297:1

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real 33:20 39:9

77:2 227:5 304:14

314:15 319:10

337:13 358:9

reality 30:4

realize 37:12

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realized 220:14

really 9:15,20 10:2

17:10 22:6 26:1

28:10 30:14 33:18

64:7,10 93:11,11

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106:6,10 107:7

108:9 109:1,6

116:1 117:16

120:13,18 139:3

148:7 155:3,21

164:14 179:17

189:16 196:18

197:9,16 202:7,21

208:15 209:20

210:19 211:3,17

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220:15 226:8

229:3 231:10,20

236:3,19 239:10

242:17 271:15

272:16 283:1

297:14 305:14

315:8 317:11

319:15 336:6

340:8 346:7

352:11 355:6,6,7

358:1,13

realm 325:15,16

reason 21:10 62:7

105:7 108:1

114:17 131:17

166:4 179:8

210:17 234:20

250:7 284:1 286:2

323:1 337:15

reasonable 94:11

105:22 111:9

123:4

reasons 16:1 57:9

89:21 265:10

recall 220:12

recap 254:10

receive 35:22

204:19 265:4,16

336:22 339:14

received 32:9 46:8

104:1 146:16

159:19 177:3

187:9,10 281:5

286:1,14 288:11

290:21 300:3

315:16 329:18

335:20

recite 261:1

reclassified 315:14

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recognition 50:20

347:19

recognize 13:12

14:12 189:19

193:17 201:11

207:9 211:19

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recognized 212:5

recommend 23:7

146:4 253:4

recommendation

3:10,11,14,15,22

4:9 16:15 17:19

20:8 22:22 25:4

34:1,6,10 36:22

38:6 51:6 52:15

52:17 103:22

142:17 146:14,15

152:11 164:16

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228:4,10,11 229:5

230:3 233:1,16,17

234:2,5 236:5

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245:9 246:9,10

248:16,20 249:1

253:5 280:15

283:7 289:20

290:8 298:8 300:4

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329:18 330:11,15

330:18,22 331:2,5

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recommendations

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red 1:11 88:20 89:1

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reduced 113:19

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Register 320:5

Registry 46:1

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REPORTER 330:4

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101:21 121:14,20

127:17 129:18

134:16,18 135:6

144:8,20 146:14

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151:19 158:7

159:11 169:13

177:19 178:1,11

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re-listed 16:20 90:9

96:11 97:4 136:22

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51:12 52:11 80:12

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120:4 122:11

135:3 138:10

146:5 170:7 270:5

273:13 274:17

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re-write 140:17

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Richard 195:13

197:17 227:1

rid 31:10 143:6

Riddel 254:12

right 5:9 11:11

19:1 21:7 24:3

27:13,18 28:21

31:2 38:18 39:7

41:6 44:6,11 52:8

52:19 55:16

108:11 109:3

115:17 118:16

121:16,17,21

122:4,19 130:5

133:2,5 138:22

139:8,10 143:10

150:6 153:9

165:17 168:7

169:8 179:16

188:4 191:9

200:16 201:9

203:3 206:12,13

206:13,14,14

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235:7,17 237:5,7

237:15,20 238:1,2

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325:7,11,14,17

331:17 333:8

344:22 349:5,16

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rights 331:12

rigor 63:13

rinse 283:10,13,17

284:4,8,12 285:2

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ripening 148:19

149:11 150:5,8

153:4 155:3 157:7

risking 97:8

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risk-based 339:8

339:13

risk/benefit 313:2

road 30:11 33:13

191:14 192:13

255:22 256:14

ROBERT 1:21

Robert's 331:16

358:12

robust 335:4

rodent 83:5 93:2

94:16 95:9 97:3

rodenticides 99:9

rodents 91:3

role 64:7 93:7

328:8 339:13

room 1:11 15:3

42:16 106:10

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232:4

root 25:10 27:5

115:16 117:6,10

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rosemary 279:9

Rosen 2:19 271:19

271:20 284:14,15

285:7 286:12

287:2,15 288:7

rotate 240:18

round 294:5

routinely 220:1

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rule 115:10 134:16

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S

Safe 48:6 57:20

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safety 138:14 284:2

sake 12:18 133:19

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68:15 277:14

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sanitizers 284:3,6

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sanitizing 48:7

55:9 281:13

SAPP 266:16

satisfy 7:12 80:8

223:16

Savannah 358:18

359:5

save 230:12 275:5

saving 114:9

saw 112:15 186:16

186:17,18,19

239:5 281:3

saying 24:14 30:22

31:12 86:22 106:5

106:19 137:6

150:5 188:14

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317:14,15 348:14

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49:20 60:6 64:18

85:10 88:8 150:19

152:6,7 176:21

194:5,9 195:13

232:9 235:18

259:19 272:5

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scalable 28:12

scale 148:21 149:6

157:14 207:14

scales 256:4,8

schedule 349:5

science 187:22,22

191:2 192:4,4

193:20 195:6,20

197:7,8,10 201:12

204:14 209:19,19

209:20,20 213:15

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sciency 117:15

scientific 152:10

187:7,11 195:12

198:6 306:19

scientist 193:6

199:9

scientists 200:8

scientist's 187:6

scope 167:2

screen 23:15 44:6

59:4 101:19

124:20 259:17

scroll 140:12

290:12 291:10

scrutiny 61:22 62:3

seated 82:17

296:19 297:1

Seattle 1:12

sec 19:17

second 19:19 20:19

23:17 40:9 42:5,6

44:2 48:11 49:6

52:10 57:8 58:1

59:4,17,18 60:19

67:7,8 68:18 70:4

71:12 72:20,20

74:5,6 75:11

81:10,11 83:9,10

99:11 100:18,19

102:5 118:20

124:4 127:21

130:2,3,5 131:17

132:2 135:5

137:15 138:4

141:11,12 145:4,5

146:8 147:22

159:14,15 162:11

162:12 163:3

169:17 171:17,18

172:19 176:16

177:2,22 178:16

179:8,14,16 180:7

180:13 181:22

182:1,2 183:16,17

210:12 221:7

224:21 248:10

249:5,13,14 254:4

254:5 257:12,20

257:21 259:7,8

260:8 262:20,21

263:13,15 264:18

267:19,20 270:7,8

270:16 274:19,20

276:14,20,21

279:11,12 280:18

280:20 282:6

289:14,15 298:3,9

298:12,13 299:7

299:15 301:18,19

328:12,13 331:7,8

339:5,8 345:6

354:12,16 355:2

355:13 356:4,20

seconded 42:8 44:4

44:4 59:20 67:10

68:20 70:4 80:21

123:22 124:2,6

125:3 158:10

159:17 169:19

182:4 183:19

221:9 243:1 258:1

259:13 263:1

264:19 298:15

301:21 355:5,12

356:19

seconder 247:19

356:6

seconding 102:5,7

seconds 23:17

75:12 100:21

354:20

Secretary 47:9

66:8 216:11 291:9

327:6 345:12

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254:3 280:17

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25:16 27:2,4,7

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37:16 49:21 61:9

78:17 79:10,15

84:2 86:6 90:16

92:19 94:21 106:3

107:17 108:3

109:22 119:13

135:17 140:14

148:10 161:21

163:20 164:7

165:20 166:4,4,18

166:21 179:18

200:12,17,18

201:5,10 210:16

220:5 229:3

231:10,11 234:5

235:3 236:10

247:1 251:13

271:11 290:13

301:22 302:22

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53:4 68:21 70:5

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133:18 145:7

146:18 158:11

160:14 168:7

170:12 180:19

196:22 209:15

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260:14 263:19

265:18 269:6

275:8 279:14

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seen 159:22 191:20

230:2,4

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63:9 86:10,16,21

98:1 105:5 107:1

119:19 163:18

164:4,6,19 166:1

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171:8,10,12 177:4

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59:10,15 67:1,5

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283:18 285:12,20

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steptomycin 114:7

Steve 1:16 3:17

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159:22 160:2

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88:15 192:7

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195:10,13 203:15

212:21 213:2

306:17,22 307:3

333:18 335:13

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315:2,8

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55:4 57:6 64:17

85:10 96:15

102:19 103:7

110:17 112:10

118:20 122:6,10

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129:13 131:16,22

132:1,5 134:9,15

136:4,8,20 137:10

138:1,11 139:5

144:14 150:19

152:21 162:20

169:4 171:8

172:16 176:7

177:18 178:9

179:6 231:18

270:2 274:15

276:5 287:15,16

288:7,12 289:5

290:3 302:6 334:1

337:17,22 338:2

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109:11 111:13,19

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223:2 225:7,10

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95:2 96:20 117:8

118:18 120:19

123:12 124:8,21

133:11 137:2

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164:21,21 173:16

180:10 193:16

198:8,21 199:10

202:13,16 204:7

215:4 216:15

230:7 231:12

232:21 239:3

243:18 263:2

272:15 297:7,9

298:6 302:5,11

305:11 318:16

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surrounding

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synchronicity

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68:12 69:20 71:5

71:19 72:15 73:21

81:6 101:11

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186:3,14,15 189:2

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212:17 213:1,11

215:15 217:4,12

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220:14 257:3,15

257:19 258:9

262:19 263:4,5,12

264:13 267:5,7,9

276:7,10 301:12

303:3,7 304:1

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336:10,15

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19:20 21:12,13

22:10 31:5 34:22

35:7,13 40:15

52:7 54:10 57:7

63:17 82:12 92:12

95:4 98:5 104:14

109:16 112:6,9

131:20 136:11

139:10 142:2

155:18,21 164:22

166:22 168:2

174:7 176:1,11

178:22 190:10

198:14 200:2

204:10 212:13,18

217:19 219:8

244:6,11 245:12

245:22 251:10

257:8 268:1

272:16 296:12

314:7 316:18

320:6,18 324:18

331:11 345:9

346:11 347:22

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86:12 96:1 135:6

164:3 236:20

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talk 10:2 14:20

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325:11

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talking 20:14 46:7

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113:12,16 189:8,9

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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

406

National Organic Standards Board

USDA

04-29-11

Seattle, WA