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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURE MARKETING SERVICE (AMS)

NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM (NOP)

+ + + + +

MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ORGANIC

STANDARDS BOARD (NOSB)

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

APRIL 28, 2011

+ + + + +

The National Organic Standards

Board convened, at 8:00 a.m., in the Emerald

I Meeting Room at the Red Lion Hotel, 1514

Fifth Avenue, Seattle, Washington, Tracy

Miedema, Chairperson, presiding.

MEMBERS PRESENT

TRACY MIEDEMA, Chairperson

COLEHOUR BONDERA

STEVE DEMURI

JOSEPH DICKSON

KRISTINE "TINA" ELLOR

BARRY FLAMM

JOHN FOSTER

WENDY FULWIDER

KATRINA HEINZE

NICHOLAS MARAVELL

ROBERT "MAC" STONE

JENNIFER TAYLOR

C. REUBEN WALKER
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STAFF PRESENT

MILES McEVOY, Deputy Administrator, National

Organic Program

MELISSA BAILEY, Director, Standards 

Division, National Organic Program

LISA BRINES, Standards Division, National 

Organic Program

EMILY BROWN ROSEN, Standards Division,

National Organic Program

LISA AHRAMJIAN, NOSB Executive Director
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Call to Order 11

 Tracy Miedema

 Chair

Opening Remarks 11

 Miles McEvoy

 Deputy Administrator

 National Organic Program

Public Comments 13

 Jackie Von Ruden 13

 MOSA

 David Will 21

 Chino Valley Ranchers

 Paul Frey 28

 Frey Winery

 Todd Brendlin 35

 Grimmway Farms and Cal Organic Vegetables

 Christopher Ely 42

 Applegate Farms

 Steven Frenkel 50

 Organic Vintages

 Ron Christensen 58

 Idalou Egg Ranch

 Matthew Miller 64

 Organic Inspector

 David Gard 72

 Greg Herbruck 78

 Organic Egg Producer

 Michigan
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

 Kim Dietz 85

 Former NOSB Member

 and

 Manager

 Smuckers Natural Foods

 Paul Klingerman 95

 Washington Pork Producer

 Anne Mosness 97

 Commercial Salmon Fisherman

 Beth Unger 101

 CROPP Cooperative

 Didier Jacquet 107

 Winemaker

 Dag Falck 112

 Nature's Path Foods

 Elissa Sosland 121

 Animal Welfare Institute

 Phil LaRocca 124

 LaRocca Vineyards

 Harriet Behar 130

 Mohamed Mousa 139

 Geneticist and Immune System

 Development in Poultry

 Seri Sedlacek 145

 Badger Mountain Vineyard

 and

 Powers Winery

 Josh Hinerfeld 152

 Organically Grown Company
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

 Kathy Pryor 158

 Physicians for Social Responsibility

 Roxanne Green 164

 Organics Consumer

 Leslie Zuck 167

 Pennsylvania Certified Organic

 Dave Carter 175

 National Bison Association

 and

 Pet Food Institute

 Anne Schwartz 183

 Organic Farmer

 Sam Carruth 189

 SQM

 Producer of Natural Chilean nitrate

 David Lively 196

 Organically Grown Company

 Jake Lewin 207

 CCOF Certification Services

 Joseph Ward 216

 Iowa Organic Association

 Dragan Macura 225

 AgroThrive, Incorporated

 Tony Dryak 236

 Farmer

 Richard Mathews 249

 NOP Solutions, Incorporated

 Julie Weisman 251

 Former NOSB Member
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

 Robin Allan 262

 CCOF

 Darryl Williams 268

 Oregon Tilth

 Terry Shistar 276

 Beyond Pesticides

 Mel Gehman 282

 Heritage Poultry Management

 George Bass 285

 Organic Egg Farmer

 Trudy Bialic 287

 PCC Natural Markets

 Joan Smiley 291

 Falcon Lab

 Patty Lovera 297

 Food and Water Watch

 Alexis Randolph 304

 QAI

 Zea Sonnabend 315

 CCOF

 Susan Cheney 325

 Martek Biosciences

 Andrew Wilcox 329

 Egg Farmer

 Beth Robinette 332

 Cattle Rancher

 Howard Koozer 337

 Chicken Egg Farmer
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

 Elizabeth Fry 342

 Whole Foods Market

 Cathy Franck 348

 Real Food Watch Club

 Biodiversity Project

 Gwendolyn Wyard 353

 Organic Trade Association

 Eli Penberthy 363

 Consumer

 and

 PCC Natural Markets

 John Ashby 366

 California Natural Products

 David Martinelli 370

 Coleman Natural Foods

 Brynn Arborico 374

 Student

 Chicken Owner

 Mark Kastel 377

 Cornucopia Institute

 Marley Arborico 386

 Student

 Chicken Owner

 Hal Kreher 389

 Chicken Farmer

 Eiko Vojkovich 395

 Cattle, Hog, and Egg Farmer

 Zareb Herman 399

 Hain Celestial Group
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

 Maurice Robinette 405

 Cattle Rancher

 Fritzi Cohen 410

 Concerned Citizen

 Mabell Rivas 415

 Pennsylvania Certified Organic

 Margaret Wittenberg 419

 Whole Foods Market

 Richard Reese 423

 Keith Stavrum 428

 Independent Shellfish Growers

 of Washington State

 Pat Kane 432

 Accredited Certifiers Association

 Nicole Dehne 437

 Vermont Organic Farmers

 Carrie Little 442

 Mother Earth Farm

 Little Earth Farm

 Julianne Lamsek 445

 Concerned Consumer

 Jim Koan 448

 Apple Grower

 Jeremy Shapely 451

 Wine Importer

 Luis Monge 456

 Dole Fresh Fruit International

 and Organic Pineapple Industry

 of Costa Rica
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

 Dain Craver 463

 Organic Farmer

 Robert Beauregard 471

 Country Hen

 Organic Egg Producer

 Diane Dempster 480

 On Behalf of Melody Meyer

 Albert's Organics

 Jerry Bartlett 486

 Cedar Grove Composting

 and

 Washington Organic Recycling Council

 Matthew Grieshop 489

 Assistant Professor of Organic

 Pest Management

 Michigan State University

 John Baker 497

 Giving Nature Foods

 Bob Durst 501

 Simple Organic Solutions

 Herwig Opdebeeck 508

 Scientist

 Opdebeeck Consulting

 Switzerland

 Cheryl Van Dyne 512

 Representing J.M. Huber,

 SASSI and DITA

 Peggy Miars 516

 On Behalf of Bill Wolf

 Callyn Kirchar 521

 Oregon Tilth
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)

 Garth Kahl 525

 Organic Consultant

 Jason Woulfin 531

 SQM

OTA Flavor Task Force Update 536

 Gwendolyn Wyard, Co-Chair

 Julie Weisman, Co-Chair

Adjournment 541
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 8:00 a.m.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Good morning,

4 everyone.

5 We have quorum, and we will go

6 ahead and get back in session for day three of

7 our spring 2011 meeting.

8 We have an announcement this

9 morning from Deputy Administrator Miles McEvoy

10 of the National Organic Program.

11 MR. McEVOY: Good morning.

12 We are making progress on more

13 topics. We do have the proposed residue14 testing rule that will be published in The

15 Federal Register tomorrow. It goes on display

16 today. The residue-testing rule meets the

17 OFPA requirements outlined in the Organic Food

18 Production Act, was identified in the OIG

19 audit from last year as a missing piece of the

20 requirements that certifiers have to conduct

21 periodic residue testing.

22 The proposed rule will require
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1 certifiers to collect and test from 5 percent

2 of the operations that they certify, provides

3 flexibility of who they choose to collect

4 samples and tests. The testing is in addition

5 to any targeted testing that they may be

6 currently conducting. The sample collection

7 must be done by a qualified third party.

8 Certifiers must pay for the sampling and

9 testing. We estimate that the cost of this

10 will be less than 1 percent of their operating

11 budget. We believe that this is very

12 important to monitor compliance, to deter

13 fraud, and to meet consumer expectations of

14 what the certification process is all about.

15 So, we will have a press release

16 out later today, and, then, the full rule will

17 be published in The Federal Register tomorrow.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

20 Any questions for Miles?

21 (Laughter.)

22 MR. McEVOY: Any questions from
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1 the Board?

2 (Laughter.)

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I will recognize

4 Marty Mesh.

5 MR. MESH: What is the effective

6 date of this proposed rule?

7 MR. McEVOY: There's no effective

8 date. There's a comment period. So, we have

9 a 60-day comment period that's open until June

10 20th, yes, late June.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Miles.

12 All right, let's proceed with

13 public testimony.

14 The first speaker this morning is

15 Jackie Von Ruden, and David Will is standing

16 by.

17 MS. VON RUDEN: Jackie Von Ruden

18 from MOSA.

19 Livestock guidance versus rule.

20 The new pasture rule has added time to organic

21 inspections, even on operations that are

22 compliant. Although MOSA called for
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1 operations to provide pasture before the added

2 pasture rule, we have accommodated and

3 appreciated its elucidation of the

4 requirements.

5 We have also been faced with

6 animal welfare issues and confronted them as

7 non-compliances without additional rulemaking.

8 But we are still receptive to more

9 specificity, particularly relating to organic

10 poultry. There are comments in

11 regulations.gov from certified poultry

12 operations that claim their second-story

13 aviary hens have outdoor access by going down

14 ladders. Do hens really go up and down

15 ladders?

16 At the same time we endorse more

17 specificity so that certifiers and producers

18 must meet basic tenets of animal welfare, we

19 want to caution against so much specificity

20 that a four-hour livestock inspection takes

21 eight hours. Rule is rule, and guidance can

22 serve to educate producers and inspectors on
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1 what management practices may need to change

2 to meet the rule.

3 We do not want inspectors required

4 to body score or lameness score every animal

5 on an organic farm. But we believe that

6 guidance documents like the example that we

7 provided on sheep could help inspectors and

8 certifiers identify the causes of an

9 operation's deficiencies in meeting the

10 requirements of feed, living conditions, and

11 handling as related to animal welfare.

12 Transport, handling, and

13 slaughter. MOSA is concerned that requiring

14 slaughter plants to meet all FSIS

15 requirements, including the Humane Slaughter

16 Act, could eliminate the use of small plants

17 that operate solely under state inspection.

18 The Act does not specify the percentages noted

19 in this recommendation, who is responsible for

20 verifying those.

21 The Act does not address poultry

22 slaughter. Poultry are covered in 9 CFR 381,
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1 which requires thorough bleeding and that

2 breathing be stopped before scalding. Please

3 consider our handout which describes slaughter

4 requirements under these two regulations.

5 We also note that it is not clear

6 who is responsible for verifying the

7 percentages of livestock slips and falls.

8 Animal welfare. The revised

9 animal welfare recommendation would require

10 that calves over two months of age shall not

11 be tied. This new proposal needs more farmer

12 input on the impact to calf management. We

13 have farmers who are doing an excellent job

14 with calf-grazing systems utilizing tethers up

15 to six months of age. The contradiction with

16 the current rule which allows tethering up to

17 six months would need to be reconciled.

18 More consideration needs to be

19 given to space requirements. We maintain that

20 the requirements for hogs and layers are too

21 low. If organic layers are to go outside,

22 pullets need to go outside before 12 weeks of
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1 age.

2 Crops. We do not support changing

3 annotations of materials without adequate

4 technical review. We support the relisting of

5 tetracycline and streptomycin to allow for

6 viable alternatives for fire blight control to

7 be researched and developed for humid, as well

8 as arid conditions.

9 And last, we have a pretty good

10 and well-recognized materials reviews program,

11 and we would welcome the opportunity to

12 provide more input.

13 Thank you.

14 Any questions?

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour?

16 MR. BONDERA: Thank you.

17 Sorry, but you spoke so fast and I

18 just sat down. So, I am going to be a little

19 slower. I apologize.

20 I think that the first thing that

21 came to me, though, I would like to hear

22 regarding livestock, because in your quick
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1 comments I didn't hear, at least clearly

2 enough, how the issues that you raised could

3 be improved. Like, do you have any

4 suggestions or recommendations for "therefore,

5 what?" Like you said something about guidance

6 versus rules. So, what should happen?

7 And you mentioned how to get

8 something about farmer input. It's like you

9 didn't say how. And so, I just wonder if you

10 could address -- I think my question is, how

11 or what to improve or address those issues?

12 That's my question.

13 MS. VON RUDEN: Specific to the

14 line that was added at this meeting, the

15 calves over two months of age shall not be

16 tethered, that was added here. We haven't had

17 time yet to ask our farmers whether or not

18 that would impact their farming systems.

19 I have been on several farms -- I

20 am an inspector as well -- where the tethering

21 systems that they have are fantastic systems.

22 I would really hate to see them not be able to
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1 do that.

2 So, I would like the opportunity

3 to poll our 650 livestock farmers to find out

4 what kind of an impact this line specifically

5 would have.

6 But, in general, the added

7 regulations of all of these specifics into the

8 rule -- the rule is rule; we have to stand by

9 it, but guidance could serve to provide the

10 inspectors and the certifiers with just

11 additional requirements -- no, not

12 requirements -- additional guidelines that

13 would help us assess whether or not the farms

14 are meeting basic animal welfare principles.

15 So, we would prefer to see a lot of things in

16 guidance rather than specifics in the rule.

17 Does that answer your question?

18 Excellent.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

20 questions? Mac?

21 MR. STONE: So, Jackie, the

22 changes that we heard yesterday that, as you
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1 say, haven't been sort of vetted out, back

2 out, and in line with the guidance versus

3 rulemaking, as a certifier, rulemaking is a

4 deal-breaker versus guidance which allows

5 certifiers to work with growers to develop

6 these systems.

7 And I guess I am pretty concerned.

8 I know we have been talking about it a long

9 time, but a rush to judgment here can have

10 such long-ranging impacts on the farm later

11 and in the certifier office.

12 So, I guess I am mostly concurring

13 with what you say, as a certifier, because it

14 is a big deal that will last a long time.

15 MS. VON RUDEN: Yes.

16 MR. STONE: All right. Thank you.

17 MS. VON RUDEN: Thank you.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Reuben?

19 MR. WALKER: You mentioned space

20 requirement was too low. Was that for all

21 species or were there any in particular?

22 MS. VON RUDEN: You might have
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1 missed me saying layers and hogs.

2 MR. WALKER: Layers and hogs,

3 okay.

4 MS. VON RUDEN: Those are the two

5 areas that we feel need some work.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

7 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, if you do go

8 back out to your producers, could you also ask

9 them a little bit about the paperwork

10 requirements that would be necessary here? We

11 heard some of that earlier, and I have been

12 hearing that from farmers. So, if you develop

13 any information on that, that would be helpful

14 to the Board.

15 MS. VON RUDEN: Excellent. We

16 would be happy to provide you with any

17 information.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

19 MS. VON RUDEN: Thank you.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: David Will is up,

21 and Paul Frey is standing by.

22 MR. WILL: Good morning.
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1 My name is David Will, and I work

2 for Chino Valley Ranchers.

3 While we don't own any organic

4 chickens, we are owned by a husband and wife

5 that own six different ranches that have

6 organic layers and, in addition, we source

7 product from 20 family-owned, single-barn

8 farms.

9 Just to give you a little

10 background, we have no aviary systems, and 100

11 percent of our production is, from 1997, when

12 we have been certified organic, has access to

13 dirt or soil at all times.

14 I also want to personally thank a

15 lot of the NOSB members and the NOP for this

16 last little time you have gone out and visited

17 some farms. And I know that you have seen

18 some different styles of houses, and we

19 appreciate the fact that you guys have taken

20 the effort to educate yourself.

21 I really have three things I

22 wanted to address. The first one was pullets
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1 going outside at 12 weeks of age. We know

2 that the document was originally written with

3 an age to be out at six weeks, but now it has

4 changed to 12. And if there is any way you

5 can provide us, as an industry, any feedback,

6 what that shift was, we would sure appreciate

7 it because we still don't feel that 12 weeks

8 is sufficient.

9 We all operate in different

10 climates, environments, and have different

11 challenges from those, due to disease and

12 other things that can impact the health of the

13 birds. We have all over years developed a

14 vaccine program and schedule for our climate

15 in order to allow us to have a chicken, when

16 it reaches the environment where it is going

17 to live for the rest of its life, to be able

18 to be healthy and productive.

19 That is probably the most

20 important thing that I wanted to get across to

21 you guys, is that our goal is to develop and

22 produce a healthy chicken that can go on for
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1 a long and productive life.

2 The tantamount rule in farming is

3 to take care and stewardship of your animals.

4 And having us put birds out at 12 weeks is a

5 new and interesting challenge for us because

6 all of our experts tell us that it is just too

7 soon, that the birds haven't worked up their

8 time to get anything into their blood, and we

9 still are finishing with major vaccines.

10 Also, Mr. Foster, I wanted to

11 address a comment that you had made yesterday.

12 You asked a specific question about what

13 percentage of the birds would not comply to

14 the outside access. I would like to challenge

15 you guys to go and challenge the NOP, as you

16 did with the Canadian equivalency standards,

17 and actually go back and ask through the ACAs

18 all of the producers to answer that question

19 for you. Because, in my humble opinion, and

20 just doing a grassroots poll, the number is

21 shocking. I don't think it's insignificant at

22 all.
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1 And, then, the last thing is you

2 have a temperature regulation in there for low

3 temperature, but you don't have one for high.

4 We would like to propose you look at somewhere

5 between 90 and 100 degrees for that.

6 How am I doing? Okay. And that's

7 it. Thank you very much.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Questions?

9 MS. FULWIDER: We went with the

10 six weeks originally, and, then, we had

11 changed it back to 18 for public comment.

12 And, then, we had a lot of public comment that

13 they felt it should be taken back to six weeks

14 because there are producers that get them out

15 when they are fully feathered and by six weeks

16 of age without any problems.

17 And, also, the other species, we

18 don't keep any other species indoors until

19 they are adults because they might get sick if

20 they are not fully vaccinated by the time they

21 go outdoors.

22 And I guess I don't see any
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1 problem with putting in a high temp, but I

2 would assume the birds would choose to go back

3 indoors or be in the shade when it is a high

4 temperature. And so, that is why we did not

5 address that.

6 MR. WILL: Okay. Yes, we just

7 thought it was interesting you had one range

8 and not a temperature to the other side. I

9 appreciate the clarity on that, too, Ms.

10 Fulwider.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour?

12 MR. BONDERA: Thank you, and thank

13 you.

14 You know what struck me, and I

15 want to ask you about, is just to clarify what

16 I think I heard, which was that it seemed like

17 what you were saying at the beginning is that

18 all farms aren't the same, and that you can't

19 easily just take numbers, whether they are

20 temperature numbers or weeks, or whatever, and

21 apply them everywhere.

22 And so, I just want to verify that
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1 you were saying, you know, you need to make

2 sure that this is more flexible and

3 incorporates the whole range of truths. And

4 I want to ask if that is an accurate

5 interpretation.

6 MR. WILL: I think that is. Where

7 I was going is that our main operations are in

8 southern California. We don't have the

9 benefits of freezes. So, we have a much more

10 aggressive vaccination schedule than perhaps

11 a company would in the Northeast or in

12 northern Michigan, just because of the fact

13 that they have a cleaner environment than we

14 do.

15 It is also, in part, associated

16 with who your neighbors are. There's a

17 variety of different factors. None of us use

18 the same vaccination schedule. None of us use

19 the same timing between. We have all had to

20 add some due to the new FDA egg rule, but we

21 all have a different program that we have to

22 follow that works for us.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

2 MR. WILL: Thank you.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Paul Frey is up

4 next.

5 MR. FREY: Good morning.

6 My name is Paul Frey from Frey

7 Winery, a winemaker at Frey Winery. We have

8 been making organic non-sulfide wines for

9 almost 30 years. I come from a family of 12.

10 Mother and Father both medical doctors. And

11 we have won over 300 awards on 100 wines over

12 the last 13 years.

13 So, we are going to do a three14 minute presentation on the 8,000-year history

15 of non-sulfide winemaking.

16 (Laughter.)

17 Next slide, please.

18 There's no solid evidence that

19 sulfur dioxide was really used in ancient

20 times. Greeks and Romans didn't seem to use

21 them. Most of the 8,000-year history was

22 without sulfides.
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1 Many natural plant and mineral2 based additions were added to help

3 preservation, but they still considered the

4 best wines to be those without additions.

5 A quote from Columella, AD 65, "We

6 regard the best wine as any that can keep

7 without preservatives."

8 Strabo, AD 18, "Again, our valley

9 wine was excellent. It did not need to be

10 resinated and could be aged 50 years."

11 They did use neutral pine resin as

12 a mild preservative. Natural preservatives

13 were sometimes needed in the past because they

14 did not have the use of hot water

15 sterilization, micron filtration, and zero

16 oxygen bottling, which is what modern organic

17 winemakers use today.

18 Next slide, please.

19 Sulfur dioxide use was

20 controversial from the very beginning. It

21 appears that around 1450 AD sulfur dioxide was

22 used, mostly to sanitize barrels. They soon
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1 realized that if you put enough sulfur in, it

2 will stop unwanted fermentations. This isn't

3 needed in today's world because sterile micron

4 filtration does the same thing as sulfur

5 dioxide.

6 After much controversy, they did

7 allow very limited amounts of sulfur use. The

8 rule stated you could only use it once because

9 overuse of sulfur dioxide was hurting regional

10 wine reputations. Burning sulfur once in a

11 barrel leaves a small amount of sulfur; after

12 a couple of years, approximately 10 parts per

13 million.

14 Prohibitions against the use of

15 sulfur in Germany in many towns.

16 Next slide, please.

17 From 1450 to the 1970s, sulfur

18 wasn't really extensively accepted. In 1865,

19 Jules Guyot says, "I cannot recommend it."

20 Jules Chauvet, 1960, "Sulfur is not

21 indispensable. The ideal would be not to use

22 it."
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1 Organic grape growers and also a

2 UC Davis professor are some of the early

3 organic no-sulfur-dioxide winemaking pioneers

4 of the seventies and eighties.

5 Next slide, please.

6 Conclusion: organic grape growing

7 and winemaking, an 8,000-year success story.

8 Total NOP wine grape acreage is about 12,000

9 acres, equal to about 4 million cases or 50

10 million bottles of wine, or about 1.5 percent

11 of all wines sold.

12 Some of the bigger wineries only

13 mention that it is organic on their websites,

14 brochures, and tasting rooms because it is

15 great PR. Other NOP wineries make from

16 organically-grown grapes and, then, some add

17 no sulfides just to give consumers a choice.

18 Any changes to organic standards

19 should strengthen rather than weaken --

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

21 MR. FREY: -- existing standards.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very
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1 much.

2 MR. FREY: Thank you.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions for

4 Mr. Frey? Jay?

5 MR. FELDMAN: Can you tell us what

6 the impact -- I have two questions. One is

7 the issue of need, essentiality of the

8 sulfites in producing the wine.

9 And, then, if we were to change

10 what our existing practices are, what economic

11 impact do you think that would have on you?

12 MR. FREY: Sulfites isn't needed

13 in any winemaking in our approximately 30-year

14 experience.

15 The second part I didn't quite

16 understand.

17 MR. FELDMAN: If we were to change

18 the rules as they currently exist --

19 MR. FREY: Meaning?

20 MR. FELDMAN: You know, the

21 labeling, if the labeling were to change on

22 wine.
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1 MR. FREY: Right. To where you

2 had the USDA seal and, then, said contains

3 sulfite?

4 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. What economic

5 impact do you think or would that have any

6 economic impact on those that are currently

7 not using sulfites?

8 MR. FREY: Well, we believe it

9 would have an economic impact on all of

10 organics because it would water down the

11 entire standards of organics. So, for all the

12 other people that are making eggs and other

13 things, the perception of organics would be

14 harmed.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mr. Frey, one more

16 question.

17 Steve?

18 MR. DeMURI: All other things

19 being equal, if I took two bottles of wine

20 side by side, everything else was exactly the

21 same, variety, processing methods, bottling,

22 everything, the one with sulfites and without,
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1 is there a difference in shelf life between

2 the two?

3 MR. FREY: Not that we have found.

4 We have opened 15-year-old Cabernet Sauvignon.

5 It tastes outstanding. The wine you drank

6 yesterday at the party, those were both non7 sulfite, organic wines comparable to anything

8 out there.

9 As I mentioned, 300 awards with

10 100 wines over the last 13 years. These wines

11 can stand up to any other wines out there in

12 the marketplace.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve?

14 MR. DeMURI: So, a quick followup.

15 I want to make sure I understand. You are

16 saying that there would not be any shelf-life

17 difference between the two?

18 MR. FREY: Not that we have seen.

19 And there is a statistic that says most wine

20 that was drunk between six and twelve months,

21 actually, a lot of people don't realize that,

22 that the majority of all wines, a lot of
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1 people don't really hold wines, you know, red

2 wines, for 10 years much anymore.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

4 questions?

5 (No response.)

6 Thank you.

7 MR. FREY: Thank you.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Todd Brendlin, you

9 are up next. And, Christopher Ely is standing

10 by.

11 MR. BRENDLIN: Good morning.

12 I'm Todd Brendlin, the Organic

13 Production Manager of Grimmway Farms and Cal

14 Organic Vegetables.

15 Natural Chilean nitrate or sodium

16 nitrate has an available form of nitrogen like

17 no other material and is a complement to other

18 organic nitrogen sources that contain little

19 or no nitrate.

20 We grow over 30 different

21 vegetables year-round in five different

22 regions of California. Sodium nitrate is
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1 especially crucial to the production of many

2 of these vegetables during the months of

3 December through February, when soil

4 temperatures dip below 60 degrees and

5 microbial activity slows down.

6 We anticipate that we will not be

7 able to supply our customers with the quantity

8 and quality of lettuce, spinach, green onions,

9 and sprouts because they demand, if we cannot

10 use the material.

11 I came to this meeting somewhat

12 baffled by the two sodium nitrate

13 recommendations from the Crops Committee. The

14 two different votes seemed to contradict each

15 other. I was relieved yesterday when I heard

16 the Crops Committee discussion between, I

17 believe, Mr. Maravell and others explaining

18 that the first recommendation to be voted on

19 will be the one to remove the annotation, and

20 the second one is merely a backup, should the

21 first one fail to pass.

22 This explanation relieved my
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1 concerns that the full Board would be robbed

2 of a fair opportunity to choose whether to

3 completely prohibit sodium nitrate or to allow

4 current limited use. Considering the likely

5 split-vote outcomes, it is easy to see that

6 reversing the order of voting on the

7 recommendations would change the entire

8 situation to one in which the Board members

9 would no longer have a fair choice, but would

10 be forced to choose between completely

11 prohibiting sodium nitrate or allowing

12 unlimited use. In effect, this is not a

13 choice at all since no one in the industry

14 wants to see unlimited use.

15 Regarding liquid fertilizer

16 alternatives mentioned by the Crops Committee,

17 we have elected not to use them at this point

18 in time because of concerns about the past

19 synthetically-adulterated products on the

20 market as well as the uncertainty of corn

21 steep liquor being ruled as a synthetic.

22 The judicious use of sodium
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1 nitrate has proven to be a valuable

2 contribution to the success of organic ag and

3 Grimmway Farms. It allows organic ag to

4 improve its productivity, sustainability, and

5 its potential to produce fresh food of high

6 quality year-round. Food production of high

7 quality and in sufficient quantity is one of

8 the most important objectives of organic ag.

9 We support relisting sodium

10 nitrate with the annotation.

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

13 Can we have a clarification from

14 the Crops Committee Chair, John Foster, on how

15 you expect the voting to proceed tomorrow? I

16 think there might be some confusion.

17 And if you need to, we can refer

18 back to the process that we have all agreed

19 on.

20 MR. FOSTER: I would prefer to do

21 that.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay.
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1 MR. FOSTER: My head is not in the

2 space of clarifying that kind of thing right

3 now.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No problem.

5 MR. FOSTER: I mean, honestly, I

6 know we can get there.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure.

8 MR. FOSTER: But, in this moment,

9 it would not be a good thing, I don't think.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No sweat.

11 (Laughter.)

12 Mr. Brendlin, I believe there's

13 some confusion, and it resulted from the way

14 the published recommended was organized. The

15 voting procedure tomorrow will proceed like

16 this:

17 All materials that have an

18 annotation change during Sunset, the Sunset

19 change has to be voted on after the material

20 is initially has a chance to be relisted as

21 is.

22 So, let me recap. Vote No. 1 is
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1 to relist the material as is with the current

2 annotation. Vote No. 2, in this situation,

3 would be to remove the annotation, which,

4 because of this place on the National List,

5 has the effect of making the material

6 completely prohibited.

7 There's nothing on the table,

8 there's no motion that anyone has discussed so

9 far being on the table tomorrow that provides

10 for sodium nitrate to be used at the 100

11 percent nutrient level.

12 MR. BRENDLIN: Okay. Thank you.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure.

14 Any NOSB members need to check me

15 on that? Do I have that right?

16 Jay?

17 MR. FELDMAN: I think our process

18 is to vote first on the annotation and, then,

19 vote to relist, so as to enable the material

20 to remain on the list in the case of OMB and

21 OP not being able to facilitate action before

22 the expiration of the Sunset.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina?

2 MS. HEINZE: I believe that is

3 correct. That is what I had in my

4 presentation on Tuesday, but I will verify in

5 the actual policy.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay.

7 MS. HEINZE: But I would concur

8 with your statement that we have nothing on

9 the table for tomorrow that would allow it

10 unilaterally. So, I think that is probably

11 the most important thing that you said.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Right. Okay.

13 This is a really important question that you

14 raised. Over the very first break, we will

15 get absolutely clear on that and make an

16 announcement because it sounds like there's

17 some real concern there.

18 MR. BRENDLIN: Okay. Thank you.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure.

20 Any other questions?

21 (No response.)

22 Okay. Christopher Ely is up.
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1 Steven Frenkel is standing by.

2 MR. ELY: Morning.

3 I am Christopher Ely, co-founder

4 of Applegate Farms, and I am also a PACO5 certified animal welfare auditor.

6 Applegate welcomes the idea of a

7 single national organic animal welfare

8 standard and congratulates the NOSB Livestock

9 Committee for their hard work in the creation

10 of the proposed standards.

11 Even though Applegate has posted a

12 more detailed document regarding the proposed

13 animal welfare standards, I would like to

14 reiterate a portion of our posted comments.

15 Applegate has been working with

16 organic and antibiotic-free livestock and

17 poultry farmers since 1986. We have seen a

18 full gamut of animal welfare practices and

19 have learned what does and doesn't work. In

20 the end, there are two categories of

21 standards, science-based and perception-based,

22 which at times can cause contradictions.
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1 There is perception amongst the

2 general public, and even within the organic

3 community, that organic-handling and slaughter

4 standards address animal welfare at a much

5 higher level than commercial operations that

6 follow the AMI guidelines written by Dr.

7 Temple Grandin. This is not true.

8 As much as it would be wonderful

9 to greatly distance organic from commercial

10 standards, the reality is you would be hard11 pressed to improve the present system of

12 measurable core criteria that is science13 based. It would not make sense to arbitrarily

14 add different audit criteria to slaughter

15 operations who are already using the standards

16 developed by respected experts in the

17 slaughter industry.

18 Applegate commends the NOSB

19 Livestock Committee for recommending the

20 proposed livestock standards to adopt these

21 AMI standards. Most plants today are already

22 participating in at least one, if not more,
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1 third-party animal welfare slaughter audits on

2 an annual basis. Organic auditors would only

3 need to verify that the plant has had an AMI4 based animal welfare audit on an annual basis

5 and that that plant has passed the audit.

6 Our only concern are small state7 inspected plants that generally do not adapt

8 AMI standards and protocol and may not have

9 annual animal welfare plant audits nor the

10 proper resources to comply to these standards.

11 In the NOSB Livestock Committee

12 document, the Proposed Recommendations Animal

13 Handling, Transport, and Slaughter, as dated

14 March 1st, 2011, it is stated in the section

15 Slaughter Plant Audits that "Organic

16 certifying agents can review documentation

17 from these third-party animal welfare audits

18 and can do an additional auditing as

19 necessary."

20 Applegate feels this leaves a very

21 gray open area of interpretation by certifying

22 agents who are not properly trained in animal
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1 welfare by such organizations as PAACO. This

2 could lead to unbalanced standards between

3 certifying agencies who may interpret

4 established welfare protocol, who may

5 misinterpret -- excuse me -- established

6 welfare protocol.

7 Applegate believes that science8 based and perception-based standards are both

9 important criteria to consider when proposing

10 animal welfare standards --

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

12 MR. ELY: -- but there is an

13 abundance of science -- thank you.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Does anyone have a

15 question for Mr. Ely? Katrina?

16 MS. HEINZE: I am trying to figure

17 out what that means you are asking us to do.

18 It sounded like keep working on it. Am I

19 correctly interpreting that?

20 MR. ELY: Yes.

21 MS. HEINZE: I know it was more

22 detailed than that.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy?

3 MS. FULWIDER: I would like for

4 you to propose some way to address this.

5 MR. ELY: Well, my biggest concern

6 is the state-inspected plants. An example

7 that I will use, that even federally-inspected

8 plants, the very small ones, do not have the

9 resources. When I have audited, I have

10 occasionally failed them because they lacked

11 the resources to have proper programs to pass

12 their standards.

13 Having grown up in both the state14 and federally-inspected meat industry, I have

15 been at many state plants, and they are going

16 to struggle. The bad part of that is much of

17 the organic industry, the very small

18 producers, need somebody like the state

19 inspectors. It is important so that they can

20 market their product. But I am not sure the

21 resources are there for these standards to be

22 passed by the state or by these state-
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1 inspected plants. So, I think that this is a

2 real touchy area, and I am not quite sure what

3 the answer is.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other

5 questions? Colehour?

6 MR. BONDERA: I am going to follow

7 up on what you just said, which is you are not

8 really sure what the answer is. And so, the

9 implication I hear is, so let's figure out

10 what the answer is or let's address it. Is

11 that --

12 MR. ELY: Yes.

13 MR. BONDERA: What are you

14 suggesting by saying that, is my question.

15 MR. ELY: Well, the standards, if

16 small federal-inspected plants are having a

17 hard enough time to pass the MI standards, I

18 am not sure whether the state-inspected plants

19 are even aware of some of these standards.

20 They may be. And because they are doing a lot

21 of what is referred to as "custom kill", they

22 haven't followed them.
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1 So, how do we get them onto that

2 protocol to help the small organic growers?

3 I don't have the answer to that. I just think

4 it is something that hasn't been addressed and

5 needs to be addressed.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour?

7 MR. BONDERA: Thank you. I

8 understand what you are saying. You don't

9 know how. I guess my followup question is, if

10 you were in this position, what would you do?

11 What would you do to seek that or pursue that

12 or figure out how to deal with it? Any ideas

13 of what you might do?

14 MR. ELY: Well, if I was a small

15 plant and I knew that I now had to follow AMI

16 standards, I would probably have to hire

17 somebody to teach me how to do it. So, there

18 are people out there on occasion because some

19 of the small federal plants use these people,

20 and a lot of them are sometimes ex-USDA plant

21 inspectors who no longer wanted to be

22 inspector. They are now running this service
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1 and they teach them how to put together HACCP

2 programs, and they teach them how to put

3 together these -- can teach them the AMI

4 standard.

5 But their plant themselves may not

6 meet the standards, meaning that the equipment

7 itself may be so archaic that they are going

8 to struggle, and it is going to be a huge

9 capital expenditure for them to update their

10 plants to meet the standards.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac, and then

12 Nick, and then we will need to wrap up.

13 MR. STONE: I guess I would

14 suggest that that is another additional burden

15 that the certifier is going to have to take on

16 to accomplish that on the producer's behalf,

17 but working through that facility. It is

18 going to follow the certifier at this point.

19 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, you referred

20 to what the plants, small plants, state21 inspected and small federal plants might have

22 to do to come into compliance, so to speak.
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1 What is the possibility that they simply won't

2 meet these standards and we won't have access

3 to anything but custom kill, so to speak? Are

4 you getting my drift here? Am I using the

5 right words?

6 MR. ELY: Well, if I understand

7 it, you are saying that what they need is

8 capital, and a lot of it, because the

9 equipment is expensive.

10 MR. MARAVELL: Right, and what I

11 am saying is I know the plants I deal with,

12 you know, they might just say I'm opting out

13 of this. Then, what do I do?

14 MR. ELY: Good question.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

16 Steven Frankel, you're up. Ron

17 Christensen is standing by.

18 MR. FRENKEL: Hi. I'm Steve

19 Frenkel from Organic Vintages.

20 We are probably one of the largest

21 organic wine distributors in the U.S. at this

22 time. We service the New York Metropolitan
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1 Region, licensed in New York, New Jersey, and

2 Connecticut. And we just celebrated our 23rd

3 year in business on April 1st. So, we have a

4 lot of history behind selling and marketing

5 organic wines.

6 We represent a large portfolio,

7 representing more than 35 different wineries,

8 including many that are true organic wines and

9 have the USDA seal, and, then, many others in

10 the made-with category.

11 It is my strong contention that it

12 will be a big mistake to change the rule as it

13 exists. We find that the majority of the

14 wines we sell and that the retailers want and

15 the consumers want are the ones that are

16 organic with no sulfites with the USDA seal,

17 the vast majority. Even though we make every

18 effort to market the wines in the made-with

19 categories well, and those sales for us have

20 been growing over the years, we do pretty

21 well; we represent lots of different made-with

22 wines that are very, very good, but a lot of
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1 the consumers have tried both or some

2 consumers who don't mind sulfites buy the

3 made-with and are satisfied with them. We

4 sell them to lots of restaurants, lots of

5 stores as well, but some retailers only want

6 USDA organic wines on their shelf and none in

7 the made-with category, a lot of the smaller

8 mom-and-pop stores, in particular.

9 Larger stores like Whole Foods

10 that we sell to, they buy a range of our

11 wines, and they feel that the consumers can

12 tell the difference. They look at a label;

13 they can see what they are looking for. If it

14 says "USDA", that gives them the trust and

15 confidence that they are buying the wine they

16 want.

17 Others don't mind the sulfites.

18 They want to try different wines, and they buy

19 the made-with, and they are happy to see "made

20 with organic grapes".

21 I don't think it would make a

22 difference in sales. I know someone asked
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1 about the impact, the economic impact, of

2 changing the rule. I really don't think it

3 would help the sales of the made-with category

4 significantly. And, yet, I think it would be

5 not a good idea. I think that the made-with

6 winemakers, hopefully, can move in the

7 direction of making wines without sulfites

8 because you can make world-class wines without

9 sulfites. Currently, that is the way it is.

10 There are some really good winemakers out

11 there making these USDA wines with no sulfites

12 that are really very high quality and winning

13 awards, and so on.

14 For example, a very small producer

15 we represent, Coates Vineyards, makes barrel16 aged organic wines with no sulfites that they

17 are just great. They are European in style.

18 People really like them. We have a lot of

19 good fans. They are not inexpensive because

20 he is using American and French oak.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

22 MR. FRENKEL: So, he is spending
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1 some money on it.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions?

3 Let's start with Katrina, then Jay, then Nick.

4 MS. HEINZE: I have two questions.

5 MR. FRENKEL: Sure.

6 MS. HEINZE: So, I will give them

7 both.

8 So, the first is sulfites, do they

9 have to be labeled or not in wine? We have

10 covered this before. I just can't remember.

11 And, then, the second is, do you

12 think consumers -- and this would be a

13 hypothesis on your part -- prefer the USDA14 certified because it is 95 percent or because

15 of the no sulfites?

16 MR. FRENKEL: The regulation,

17 federal regulation, requires that "contains

18 sulfites" must be put on a label if it

19 contains more than 10 parts per million

20 sulfites. So, that is one requirement.

21 And as far as the rule right now,

22 organic wine must have 100 percent
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1 organically-grown grapes and processed

2 organically with no sulfites.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay?

4 MR. FELDMAN: I am interested in

5 the comment you made about the industry moving

6 more toward 100 percent as a result of this

7 label. If we had, say, started out with the

8 USDA organic label, allowing sulfites and

9 disclosure or notification of sulfites, do you

10 think there would be any pressure to move

11 toward no sulfites? Or how do you think the

12 industry would have evolved or would evolve in

13 that situation?

14 MR. FRENKEL: Well, I think what

15 you are implying is truth. I think that there

16 would have been less pressure and less

17 motivation for a number of winemakers to learn

18 how to make wines without sulfites. Because

19 there is a learning curve like in anything,

20 and more and more winemakers are going in that

21 direction. We just started marketing some

22 imported wines from Italy with no sulfites
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1 that are very well made and, also, one from

2 Spain now that has come out. And Chile has

3 one coming out. And there are many countries,

4 and, then, in the U.S. many winemakers are

5 experimenting with making wines without

6 sulfites, and I think partly because of

7 wanting to move in that direction.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

9 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, you made a

10 statement that you didn't think this would

11 make a difference in sales and, then, you

12 qualified that by saying it would not help

13 sales of made-with wines. Do you think it

14 could hurt sales in any way, if a change were

15 made?

16 MR. FRENKEL: Yes. Possibly what

17 could happen, what I am afraid of is that the

18 consumer could be fooled into thinking the

19 wine that they are looking for that has the

20 USDA seal on it, and that they know is pure,

21 100 percent pure as far as they are concerned

22 without any sulfites, and so on, if it now had
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1 a wine labeled with a USDA seal that did

2 contain sulfites and it was hidden on the back

3 label, which nowadays they are putting

4 "contains sulfites" on the back of the label

5 instead on the front, and so on, people could

6 be misled. It could create problems and

7 confusion.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

9 MR. MARAVELL: So, I didn't

10 realize that. So that, made with sulfite can

11 be on the back of the label and the USDA seal

12 could be on the front of the label, is that

13 correct?

14 MR. FRENKEL: Yes. Now I don't

15 know if -- anyway, yes, that is my current,

16 saying that the TTB requires "contains

17 sulfites" on the label, but now many

18 winemakers are putting it on the back.

19 MR. McEVOY: Point of

20 clarification: with made-with products, if

21 you add sulfites to wine, you can't use the

22 USDA seal.
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1 MR. MARAVELL: No, right now, yes.

2 Would that situation change if we were to

3 change the rule? That is what I was talking

4 about.

5 MR. McEVOY: Yes, if you allowed

6 sulfites in wine, in organic wine, then, yes,

7 you could use the USDA seal.

8 MR. MARAVELL: And, then, the

9 "contains sulfite" would be on the back of the

10 label?

11 MR. McEVOY: We will check into

12 that.

13 MR. MARAVELL: Thank you.

14 MR. FRENKEL: Thank you.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Ron Christensen is

16 up. Matthew Miller is standing by.

17 David Gard, are you here?

18 MR. GARD: Yes.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Please come up and

20 wait in the standing-by section.

21 MR. CHRISTENSEN: If I can direct

22 your attention to the slides, welcome Idalou
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1 Egg Ranch. I am Ron Christensen.

2 This is our ranch. Some of you

3 haven't been able to make it, but I will bring

4 it to you then.

5 In the foreground, we have our

6 hair sheep ewes and our lambs. We have

7 organic pecans in the back. We have are baby

8 chick houses in the back.

9 Next slide.

10 Our ewes and lambs grazing on

11 winter wheat.

12 Next slide.

13 We compost all our waste.

14 Next slide.

15 What I am here for, though, is

16 outdoor access. These are our houses

17 comparing a couple of things. One, we have

18 10,000 birds on the inside of our houses. You

19 will not see any more than 2,000 birds, or 20

20 percent of the birds, out at any one time in

21 these slides. So, every bird out there is

22 getting at least five feet per bird or more.
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1 Also, compare house 12, house 31

2 access doors. House 13 on the right has only

3 six. We did an experiment to see if access

4 doors made the birds want to come out more.

5 It did not.

6 Next slide.

7 This is now nine o'clock. The

8 birds are out a little more. But, still, it

9 looks like 13 with six doors has more than 31

10 with 31 doors. Also, there is no more than

11 2,000 birds out there.

12 Next slide.

13 This is 10 o'clock.

14 Next slide.

15 Here's indoors, fully lit, sunlit

16 houses, curtain sided. Birds go up and down

17 to the water, across the house, inside and

18 out, as they need. We are really proud of

19 what we do there.

20 Next slide.

21 Eleven o'clock, 12 and 13, minimum

22 birds out, over five feet bird you're seeing
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1 there.

2 Next slide.

3 Next slide.

4 One o'clock.

5 Next slide.

6 Two o'clock.

7 Next slide.

8 Three o'clock, the birds are

9 coming in and out as they desire. Their doors

10 are always open.

11 Next slide.

12 Sunshine finally comes out today,

13 and the birds are in and out.

14 Next slide.

15 Remember, we have got 10 feet per

16 bird right there with the number of birds

17 outside.

18 Next slide.

19 Indoors at five o'clock, again,

20 sunlit, beautiful, good air quality. The

21 birds want to be inside. It is a great place.

22 Next slide.
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1 Six o'clock.

2 Next slide.

3 Seven o'clock.

4 Next slide.

5 The sun is going down. The birds

6 are outside more. Still no more than 20

7 percent of the birds are outside. Five feet

8 per bird is given.

9 Next slide.

10 This slide is thrown out. Some

11 people say the birds have to be trained. This

12 is the birds' first day out. These birds are

13 22 weeks of age, as our vaccination program

14 and our plan, we can have them inside until

15 that day. This is the first day out. You

16 will see they have no problem coming outside

17 and enjoying the great outdoors.

18 Next slide.

19 This is the same houses at four

20 o'clock. The older birds have learned that

21 they like to be inside a little more at that

22 same time of day. The same day, just
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1 different ages.

2 Next slide.

3 Thank you. A beautiful sunset in

4 west Texas.

5 I would like to just say please

6 reconsider. Your two feet per bird is based

7 on birds housed. And as you can see, we would

8 be totally out of compliance. We only have

9 1.2 feet per bird outside --

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

11 MR. CHRISTENSEN: -- and 1.2 for a

12 bird inside. And the two feet per bird on

13 birds housed makes us woefully inadequate.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, sir.

15 MR. CHRISTENSEN: Thank you.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Joe Dickson?

17 MR. CHRISTENSEN: Yes, Joseph?

18 MR. DICKSON: Thank you very

19 much.

20 You showed us sort of your

21 experiment where you tried different sort of

22 amounts of access to the outdoors, like in
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1 terms of like the linear feet of door, and saw

2 that there was very little difference there.

3 Have you tried the placement of food and water

4 outside, and does that have any bearing on the

5 birds that go outside?

6 MR. CHRISTENSEN: No, we haven't

7 done anything with the extra feed and water.

8 That is all in the indoors.

9 MR. DICKSON: Thank you.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

11 questions?

12 (No response.)

13 Thanks very much.

14 Matthew Miller, you are up next.

15 Oh, okay, and, then, David Gard is still

16 standing by.

17 MR. MILLER: Thank you, NOSB

18 members, for your commitment to organic

19 standards and allowing me the opportunity to

20 provide input on the proposed animal welfare,

21 transit, and slaughtering regulations.

22 I am Matthew Miller from Iowa.
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1 For the past seven years, as my full-time

2 occupation, I have conducted over 1600 organic

3 inspections of various operations, including

4 livestock, crops, and processing plants in the

5 upper Midwest.

6 I do not have a personal vested

7 interest in this debate. Here's my criticism:

8 you are turning organic livestock production

9 into some new form of Puritanism.

10 And here's what I mean by

11 Puritanism that comes to mind: you are making

12 a big deal out of something very small. You

13 are being overly legalistic. The Salem witch

14 trials, prohibition in the 1920s, and debating

15 the length of women's dresses are things that

16 come to mind.

17 Organic production is tiny. Only

18 1 out of every 100,000 pigs in the U.S. are

19 certified organic. One Iowa farmer could

20 raise, if these pigs are conventional, could

21 raise all the pigs in four typical confinement

22 barns. There is only 1 in every 10,000
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1 broilers in the U.S. that are certified

2 organic. Only 1 in 10,000 lambs in the U.S.

3 are certified organic. For hens, it is a

4 little higher, 1.5 percent. This is tiny.

5 The other thing that is a problem

6 is that these proposals are not going to be

7 criticized too much by our farmers because

8 they are common sense. It is in the best

9 interest of the farmers to provide the best

10 environment for their animals. And I guess

11 the problem we have is with codifying it.

12 Basically, in order to save time,

13 Jackie Von Ruden from MOSA, I want to

14 rubberstamp what her concerns were about 1500

15 times because she hit the nail on the head.

16 This is going to increase the cost of

17 certification for our producers. And

18 especially small producers are going to be

19 hurt worse.

20 The man from Applegate Farm

21 alluded to that by saying that the small

22 processing plants are going to be hurt the
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1 worst, and he doesn't know if they can comply

2 with it.

3 The other thing is that these

4 prescriptive regulations are demeaning to

5 farmers because they basically imply that

6 farmers have no common sense that they will do

7 the right thing. On the other hand, it also

8 shows how naive some people are about

9 commercial livestock production.

10 The other thing about Puritans is

11 they create these false devils to attack. And

12 this time it is not drinking alcohol, but from

13 listening to your discussion yesterday on

14 ethylene gas and, also, reading Cornucopia's

15 report, our devil is large organic production.

16 From my experience of visiting

17 large farms and small farms, the large farms

18 try to more perfectly meet the organic

19 regulation. And what's going to happen is

20 that --

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, sir.

22 MR. MILLER: -- the livestock
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1 producers, the crop producers --

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

3 MR. MILLER: -- are going to be

4 hurt.

5 Go ahead. What are your

6 questions?

7 (Laughter.)

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay Feldman?

9 MR. FELDMAN: Well, because of

10 your enthusiasm, I will ask you a question --

11 MR. MILLER: Sure.

12 MR. FELDMAN: -- which will give

13 you more time to continue.

14 (Laughter.)

15 MR. MILLER: Okay. Well, the

16 other thought is --

17 MR. FELDMAN: I haven't asked my

18 question yet.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. MILLER: Okay. Sorry.

21 (Laughter.)

22 MR. FELDMAN: You know, your
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1 comments sort of remind me of 30 years ago

2 when we sat around and talked about organic,

3 they told us it was a pipedream and it

4 couldn't happen commercially. So, it is not

5 convincing to me to hear that people who have

6 aspirations and visions about things being

7 different, that it can't happen. So, within

8 that mindset, I ask you this question.

9 MR. MILLER: Okay.

10 MR. FELDMAN: If we believe our

11 consumers have expectations for what they are

12 paying for, and how operations operate, how do

13 we balance that with your perception of how

14 things are? How do we balance the perception

15 or the consumer perception of what organic is

16 with the reality of how things are going?

17 So, my point is, could you

18 envision, despite the way things are, that we

19 could move closer to consumer expectations or

20 what we perceive to be consumer expectations?

21 MR. MILLER: A very good question,

22 Jay.
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1 There is already organizations out

2 there, such as Global Animal Partnerships,

3 Certified Humane, and other organizations,

4 that put a lot of work into animal welfare

5 standards. And there are organic products out

6 there that carry both seals.

7 And I think that it makes the most

8 sense to utilize those type of organizations

9 to meet that customer demand that you are

10 talking about. But, remember, organic is

11 tiny, and so we are nitpicking really. We

12 want to grow this.

13 Go ahead.

14 Oh, you've got to be called on.

15 I'm sorry.

16 (Laughter.)

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Please proceed.

18 MR. MARAVELL: There are other

19 organizations out there oriented towards

20 animal welfare.

21 MR. MILLER: Yes.

22 MR. MARAVELL: And as you just
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1 pointed out, some products carry both seals,

2 organic and a welfare seal.

3 How would that impact on the total

4 amount of cost to the producer and the total

5 amount of paperwork, having to carry two seals

6 rather than one seal?

7 MR. MILLER: I will say this: it

8 is similar to an organic farm that has crops

9 and livestock that they are going to certify

10 versus one farm that just has crops and one

11 farm that just has livestock.

12 Put the two farms together, and

13 there is really no cost savings because it is,

14 for me, two hours on a crop farm alone, two

15 hours on a livestock farm alone. Put them

16 together; it's a four-hour inspection.

17 I think that you would see similar

18 things because, yes, it is just going to

19 really increase the cost. I don't see any

20 benefits to packaging it.

21 And the other thing is there's

22 already animal welfare standards in the
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1 regulation. When it is appropriate, I cite

2 those things, and really they are all

3 adequate, in my opinion.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

5 questions?

6 (No response.)

7 Thank you.

8 MR. MILLER: Thank you.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: David Gard, you're

10 up next. Greg Herbruck is standing by.

11 MR. GARD: Could you back up one

12 slide, please? Or one more?

13 I am speaking today on two topics,

14 calcium acid pyrophosphate, or CAPP, as a

15 healthy leavening option and sodium acid

16 pyrophosphate, or SAPP, for improved quality

17 in packing of produce.

18 Next.

19 These ingredients provide

20 opportunities to better meet the expectations

21 of organic food consumers.

22 Next.
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1 Unlike most leaveners, CAPP is

2 based on calcium and contributes no sodium.

3 Next, please.

4 The USDA and Health and Human

5 Services are recommending a reduction in

6 sodium intake because -- next -- 90 percent of

7 Americans consume too much sodium,

8 contributing to hypertension.

9 Next.

10 Grain-based foods account for

11 about 37 percent of the daily sodium intake

12 for Americans.

13 Next.

14 Currently, monocalcium phosphate

15 and SAPP are allowed for use in organic baked

16 goods. SAPP provides a controlled leavening

17 reaction, but is based on sodium. While MCP

18 is calcium-based, its use and performance is

19 quite different from that of CAPP. For most

20 uses, CAPP cannot be substituted by

21 monocalcium phosphate as the leavening

22 functionality is greatly reduced.
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1 Next.

2 This slide shows the potential

3 effect of replacing the leavening agent in

4 some current organic food products. Use of

5 CAPP could provide approximately 25 percent

6 reduction in sodium, and calcium claims could

7 be advertised for the products.

8 Next.

9 In summary, CAPP replaces calcium

10 for sodium in controlled-release leavening,

11 providing advantages in the baking operation

12 and increasing the types of healthy organic

13 baked goods available.

14 Also, I wanted to mention the

15 environmental information in the technical

16 report is really not representative of the

17 manufacture of CAPP in the United States. It

18 is, therefore, very misleading.

19 Next slide.

20 The second petition relates to the

21 use of SAPP, or sodium acid pyrophosphate, in

22 produce. It improves produce quality and
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1 texture, process efficiency, can provide

2 potential health benefits, and allows for more

3 eco-friendly packaging.

4 Next slide.

5 In potatoes, SAPP inhibits

6 browning after peeling and development of a

7 gray color after cooking.

8 Next.

9 Currently, organic potatoes are

10 selectively bred for less color development,

11 but this potentially reduces the antioxidant

12 content. Potatoes are now processed quickly

13 in small batches, and they may be treated with

14 citric, but it is not very effective for the

15 gray color and leaves an off-flavor.

16 Products require non-ecological

17 packaging to restrict exposure to the air; for

18 example, Mylar bag.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

20 Any questions? Katrina?

21 MS. HEINZE: I have a question

22 about leavening. Can CAPP replace SAPP in all
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1 applications or only some applications?

2 MR. GARD: I would say CAPP could

3 replace SAPP in most applications.

4 MS. HEINZE: But not all?

5 MR. GARD: I am not sure if it is

6 good in all or not, but at least probably

7 most.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina, I have a

9 question for you. In our materials

10 deliberations, do we use healthier products,

11 i.e., you know, lower sodium as a yardstick in

12 materials consideration?

13 MS. HEINZE: You know, I think

14 that gets at that tough question about

15 essentiality, right? So, if a consumer, if it

16 drives a consumer need, I think that is always

17 that debate around essentiality.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve, did you

19 have a question?

20 MR. DeMURI: Yes. Do you have any

21 consumer data available that would show us

22 that it is something that consumers really
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1 would like to see?

2 MR. GARD: In the handouts, which

3 has additional information, we do have some

4 results of studies from the Natural Marketing

5 Institute. Let's see if I can refer you to

6 it.

7 But there are results. Let's see,

8 this would be like around slides 28, 29.

9 They do indicate that about 43

10 percent of the general population is looking

11 to reduce or eliminate sodium from their diet.

12 And if you look at the category they refer to

13 as well beings, which would probably include

14 organic consumers, approximately 55 percent

15 are looking to reduce or eliminate sodium.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other

17 questions?

18 (No response.)

19 Thank you very much.

20 MR. GARD: Thank you.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Please state your

22 name for the record.
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1 MR. HERBRUCK: Good morning.

2 My name is Greg Herbruck, and my

3 brothers and I are organic egg producers in

4 Michigan.

5 I also submit to you letters from

6 some of the hundreds of organic grain

7 suppliers that sell us their grain and some of

8 the 25 organic egg producers that are part of

9 our system.

10 And I wanted to comment on the

11 Livestock Committee recommendation for animal

12 welfare.

13 My primary concern is with the

14 outside access standard that would put the NOP

15 in direct conflict with the FDA's egg safety

16 rule. The NOP was required in the 1990

17 Organic Food Production Act, Part No. 2120(f)

18 titled "Effective Other Laws," to recognize

19 and comply with other departmental authority.

20 The FDA issued the final rule in

21 2009 that requires egg producers to implement

22 measures to prevent Salmonella enteritidis
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1 from contaminating eggs on farms and from

2 further growth in storage and transport. They

3 did this because, quote, "SE is among the

4 leading bacterial causes of food-borne illness

5 in the U.S., and shell eggs are a primary

6 source of human SE infections. The final rule

7 will reduce SE-associated illness and deaths

8 by reducing the risk that shell eggs are

9 contaminated with SE." Unquote.

10 A primary component of the egg

11 safety rule, 21 CFR 118.4, is biosecurity and

12 requires producers to, quote, "ensure that

13 there is no introduction or transfer of SE

14 into or among poultry houses."

15 Among them is a requirement to,

16 quote, "prevent stray poultry, wild birds,

17 cats, and other animals from entering poultry

18 houses."

19 Science has documented that

20 rodents are a known transmission vector for SE

21 infections in birds. The FDA began auditing

22 poultry farms to this standard in the fall of
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1 2010 and noted non-compliances and cited

2 numerous farms with 483 warnings.

3 Specifically, there were citations for holes

4 in the sides of building perimeter as small as

5 a half-inch by two-inch.

6 Now, on to the proposal. The

7 outside access requirement for hens' openings

8 of 5-foot by 18-inch per 1,000 hens and

9 directly to the soil, organic producers in

10 this situation will be in direct conflict with

11 an FDA rule.

12 The Committee recommendation

13 specifies that porches would not comply, which

14 eliminates an effective control point. A

15 porch is currently accepted and affirmed

16 through NOP judicial rulings in 2003.

17 So, I ask, how can a federal

18 agency prescript a production standard that

19 puts food safety at risk and directly

20 conflicts with the FDA final rule?

21 Soil-based outside access may work

22 for some regions, but the farmer needs to be
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1 the one to make the risk determination.

2 Lethal bacteria make no distinction between

3 organic and non-organic egg production

4 systems.

5 Science and legal rulings have

6 affirmed the porch as a viable outside access

7 method while according the producer the

8 ability to comply with an FDA biosecurity

9 requirement. Therefore, I recommend that the

10 recommendation from the Livestock Committee be

11 withdrawn as proposed.

12 Thank you.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

14 Any questions?

15 (No response.)

16 I have one. Deputy Administrator

17 Miles, may I ask you a question? If the

18 Livestock Committee were to pass this

19 recommendation and farmers found themselves

20 trying to figure out which set of rules to

21 follow, NOP and FDA, and they were at odds

22 with one another, how would you all sort it
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1 out?

2 MR. McEVOY: Well, we are working

3 with FDA. Currently, we are working with them

4 in terms of the implementation of the SE rule

5 because it will start to affect operations

6 with more than 3,000 birds. It is currently

7 in effect for operations that have more than

8 50,000 birds.

9 And so, nothing in terms of our

10 conversations with them say that outside

11 access for birds is prohibited. What they are

12 concerned about food safety. So, we will

13 continue to work with them, so that the two

14 requirements of the organic rules and the food

15 safety rules that FDA has SE prevention can

16 work in harmony.

17 MR. HERBRUCK: And I think I would

18 add that we talk about the consumer

19 expectations, and food safety is, obviously,

20 one of the highest. There is no magic bullet

21 to stop this. This is one of the known risk

22 vectors, and this is a real problem that any
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1 farmer is going to have to struggle to comply.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

3 MR. HERBRUCK: Thank you.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac, and, then, we

5 will go to Melissa. Go ahead, Mac.

6 MR. STONE: A couple of years ago,

7 it seems like there was a lot of conservation

8 about avian influenza and birds being outside,

9 and they were going to make us all put birds

10 indoors and not allowed outside. What is your

11 take on that or where is the conversation at

12 this point?

13 MR. HERBRUCK: Well, the bird is

14 not a pasture animal, but it does and is at

15 risk to many of these things. We just had in

16 one of our operations -- we are in Michigan;

17 the birds don't go out all winter. It is

18 below 50 degrees. It freezes. We have frozen

19 ground for five months.

20 We just started letting them out

21 in the spring, and it is migratory season in

22 our part of the world, and we had an ILT
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1 breakout, which is laryngotracheitis.

2 Fortunately, it was not a strong strain, but

3 we lost several hundred birds in this strain,

4 just because we started letting them out, not

5 me.

6 So, this is the problem with

7 poultry, forcing them to have this and not

8 giving the farmer the local -- you talk about

9 outcomes-based program. The outcome base of

10 some of these things is a porch helps certain

11 areas, people that have those high-risk

12 factors, the ability to prevent some of these

13 entrances to their farms.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Melissa Bailey?

15 MS. BAILEY: Melissa Bailey, NOP.

16 Just for the Board's

17 consideration, and we discussed this on the

18 Livestock Committee call as well, there is

19 kind of two, I just want to make sure the

20 Board understands there's two issues going on

21 here. We have the current issue that the NOP

22 regulations have always required outdoor
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1 access for poultry. So, aside from what the

2 Board decides on the animal welfare

3 recommendation, the program is currently, and

4 will continue to work with FDA on how to

5 satisfy that requirement with the current

6 regulations. And, then, anything that the

7 Board decides would, of course, complement or

8 be something that we address following that.

9 So, just to keep in mind that

10 there are two very related, but kind of

11 distinct issues at play here.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

13 Any more questions?

14 (No response.)

15 Thank you.

16 MR. HERBRUCK: Thank you.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Kim Dietz is up

18 next. Paul Klingerman is standing by.

19 MS. DIETZ: Good morning.

20 My name is Kim Dietz, and I would

21 like to welcome all the new Board members and

22 thank each and every one of you for your
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1 service to our industry.

2 For those new members, I served on

3 the NOSB as handler representative from 2000

4 to 2005. During that time, I acted as

5 Materials Chair and Board Secretary.

6 I am one of the founding members

7 of OMRI as well as the Materials Working Group

8 and a manager for Smucker Natural Foods'

9 regulatory compliance, 14 operations, and in

10 my spare time I do some consulting.

11 The Sunset process. I chaired the

12 Materials Committee through the first round of

13 Sunset review. So, this process is very

14 important to me.

15 While I agreed with the concept to

16 change annotations during Sunset, it was only

17 if alternatives are available to this

18 industry. Some of the annotation changes

19 recommended during this meeting are

20 jeopardizing historical use of our materials

21 and taking away critical farming tools.

22 Sunset is not the time to make changes unless
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1 you are absolutely confident that there are

2 alternatives. You must honor prior Board

3 decisions and do your best with the ability

4 and the information you have.

5 Crop materials. The company that

6 I work for, Smuckers, manufactures organic

7 pear juice. And without Bartlett pears, we

8 would not be able to make this product.

9 Please keep that in mind.

10 Vitamins and minerals. For the

11 record, I disagree with the removal of the

12 vitamin and mineral annotation. You heard

13 public comment from a number of organizations,

14 OTA, Richard Theuer, the National Organic

15 Coalition and Cornucopia, all supporting the

16 same annotation recommendation which you have

17 in front of you. I encourage you to do the

18 right thing and support the industry

19 recommendation.

20 Materials. For the past several

21 years, I have made public comment urging you

22 to clarify the definition of "insignificant".
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1 I support the current Materials Committee

2 recommendation and ask the Board to approve

3 that document.

4 There was a question yesterday

5 asking about the difference between technical

6 and functional. When the Materials Working

7 Group presented that, we took it directly from

8 the CFRs. That definition includes both

9 words, and it is also in the NOP definitions.

10 Decisive votes. There was a

11 comment made yesterday about some of the

12 previous NOP votes not meeting a two-thirds

13 majority. At the time when I was on the

14 Board, abstentions went with the majority;

15 today that is different. So, please keep that

16 in mind as you make those types of comments.

17 For new Board members, if you are

18 unsure of how to vote or feel you do not have

19 enough information, please abstain. Your

20 decisions are critical for this industry.

21 In closing, your role as an NOSB

22 member is to represent your segment of the
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1 industry, and it is your charge to consider

2 all current and prior information when you

3 look at an issue. I urge you to refrain from

4 personal opinion and uphold your duty as your

5 industry representative.

6 There has been a lot of talk of

7 scale, which is healthy discussion, but please

8 remember that --

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

10 MS. DIETZ: -- that might be a

11 personal biased opinion.

12 Thank you.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions for

14 Kim? Jay Feldman, and, then, Reuben Walker.

15 MS. DIETZ: That's tough in three

16 minutes.

17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

18 MS. DIETZ: Sorry.

19 MR. FELDMAN: I have a lot of

20 questions. Can I ask two questions, please?

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No problem.

22 (Laughter.)
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. I will start

2 with my second question, then, and then, if I

3 can have a chance to ask the other.

4 The whole issue of significance

5 you know we have talked about.

6 MS. DIETZ: Yes.

7 MR. FELDMAN: It occurred to us,

8 some of us, that we have a standard for

9 allowable residues in organic food, you know,

10 from unavoidable --

11 MS. DIETZ: Right.

12 MR. FELDMAN: -- contamination

13 such as drift of pesticides.

14 MS. DIETZ: Five percent, up to 5

15 percent of EPA --

16 MR. FELDMAN: Right. Now that is

17 5 percent of what?

18 MS. DIETZ: That is 5 percent of

19 the EPA tolerance.

20 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. So, we, as a

21 Board, and as an institution, have basically

22 said that we don't believe that the tolerance
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1 established by EPA is acceptable to the

2 organic community and have taken a very small

3 fraction of the allowable level of exposure

4 identified by the tolerance, right?

5 MS. DIETZ: Right.

6 MR. FELDMAN: That's correct.

7 So, here we have a proposal by the

8 Materials Committee, a majority of the

9 Materials Committee, that says we, as a

10 community, now will allow as insignificant --

11 MS. DIETZ: Yes.

12 MR. FELDMAN: -- the tolerance

13 that EPA has established. How do you

14 reconcile those two concepts?

15 MS. DIETZ: Well, my background is

16 food. So, when the Materials Working Group

17 worked on this, we really were referring more

18 to the CFRs and the tolerance levels allowed

19 for an incidental additive in food. And as

20 you know, incidentals, they are not labeled.

21 Sometimes you don't even know that they are in

22 there.
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1 And in those CFRs, there's levels.

2 So, you know, I agree there's that difference

3 of 5 percent of EPA and then what's allowed in

4 a food.

5 You know, we have just begun this

6 discussion. I do think we need to define it

7 because we do have a lot of critical materials

8 pending.

9 So, I know that didn't answer your

10 question, but, you know, we need to just come

11 to terms with it.

12 MR. FELDMAN: You endorse the

13 Committee proposal.

14 MS. DIETZ: I do.

15 MR. FELDMAN: And now you are

16 saying we need more discussion?

17 MS. DIETZ: I endorse the proposal

18 from a food perspective.

19 MR. FELDMAN: Yes.

20 MS. DIETZ: And again, my

21 background is not in EPA.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Right, but the
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1 proposal specifically, in the majority

2 proposal, it specifically says, if you have a

3 choice between an OSHA standard and an EPA

4 tolerance, in the scenario described we will

5 take the EPA tolerance as insignificant. That

6 is the same tolerance that we take as

7 unacceptable as a residue on our farm.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Is there a

9 question in there?

10 MR. FELDMAN: Well, the question

11 is, am I misinterpreting? You're agreeing

12 with me.

13 MS. DIETZ: No, you're not. I do

14 support the recommendation --

15 MR. FELDMAN: Right.

16 MS. DIETZ: -- oops, I knew that

17 would happen -- to allow any tolerance by law.

18 So, I do support that.

19 Any other questions?

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do any other Board

21 members have questions? Reuben, yes. Sorry.

22 MR. WALKER: As a new member, I
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1 appreciate seeing and hearing from past

2 members. Is there any other suggestion you

3 have for the new members?

4 MS. DIETZ: Oh, boy.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. WALKER: Because I know that

7 we --

8 MS. DIETZ: We don't have all day.

9 (Laughter.)

10 I know, and we had a nice

11 discussion last night. It was a pleasure

12 speaking with you.

13 You know, just, again, I think I

14 put it in my three minutes. You have to do

15 the best job that you can with the information

16 that you have. I know it is a lot of

17 material. It is a lot of reading.

18 Look at the history of the

19 regulations. Look at the history of this

20 industry. All these people out here, most of

21 us have been to every meeting since the

22 nineties. So, use us when you can and use the
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1 information you have got.

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other Board

4 members have questions?

5 (No response.)

6 Okay. Thank you, Kim.

7 We are at our five minutes and our

8 number of times. Thank you.

9 I am going to go ahead and

10 announce the person standing by, too. So,

11 just a moment.

12 We have got Anne Mosness standing

13 by. Go ahead.

14 MR. KLINGERMAN: Hello. I am Paul

15 Klingerman, a Washington pork producer.

16 And I understand you have made

17 some recommended changes last night on your

18 pig criteria. I do think they look very good

19 from last night. I can accept that.

20 What I had seen on the internet

21 before wasn't an acceptable thing because it

22 didn't even meet what the National Pork
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1 Producers and the National Pork Board was

2 recommending, and there has been a lot of

3 research in that.

4 But I think it is very important

5 that the outside area be looked at from the

6 standpoint that the animal has enough area to

7 exhibit its natural behavior and what it likes

8 to do. And so, I wanted to just say I do

9 support the changes that were made last night,

10 and I challenge the Committee to be inspired.

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

13 much.

14 Any questions for Mr. Klingerman?

15 Reuben?

16 MR. WALKER: So, I am

17 understanding that you support the changes

18 that the Livestock Committee had made?

19 MR. KLINGERMAN: Last night, what

20 someone showed me this morning.

21 MR. WALKER: So, you are

22 satisfied?
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1 MR. KLINGERMAN: Yes. I cut

2 myself short. Thank you.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Anne Mosness is at

4 the podium, and Beth Unger is standing by.

5 MS. MOSNESS: Good morning.

6 My name is Anne Mosness. For 28

7 seasons, I commercially fished for salmon

8 locally on the Copper River and in Bristol

9 Bay, Alaska. I have worked with the Institute

10 for Agriculture and Trade Policy, Public

11 Citizen, and other organizations on

12 aquaculture and wild fish issues, and I a Food

13 and Society Policy Kellogg Leadership Alliance

14 Fellow.

15 As an ad hoc advisor to the PCC on

16 sustainable seafoods, I have written four of

17 their lead articles in The Sound Consumer, and

18 I wrote this one in this latest issue, which

19 will be given to you later on this afternoon

20 when another PCC representative will be

21 speaking.

22 This article is titled "Can Farmed
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1 Fish Be Organic?" And it outlines only some

2 of the problems. This is a very complex

3 issue.

4 As B. James stated in 2008,

5 "Organic certification of seafood should be

6 determined on a case-by-case basis." Some

7 species that are neither migratory nor

8 carnivorous and are reared in closed

9 containment systems could be considered.

10 Salmon and other migratory carnivorous finfish

11 should not be. Around the world, open-cage

12 aquaculture is notoriously incapable of

13 confining fish, pollution, parasites,

14 pathogens, and chemicals.

15 Since Washington is one of two

16 states that has allowed salmon farming, we

17 have experience with the impacts. In four

18 years, more than 613,000 non-native Atlantic

19 salmon escaped into our waters. Several

20 winters ago, we had an outbreak of viral

21 hemorrhagic septicemia. Dr. Arthur Whitely

22 has calculated that the farms right across
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1 from Seattle put more than 5 million pounds of

2 fecal matter annually into Puget Sound.

3 With the FDA considering approval

4 of genetically-engineered fish, and NOAA

5 promoting open-cage aquaculture three miles to

6 our coastline, it would be an additional

7 bitter blow to thousands of small fishing

8 businesses if products reared in marine

9 feedlots were considered for organic

10 certification which has been denied to wild

11 seafoods. We would also find it unfathomable

12 that wild fish could be used in feed for these

13 organic fish.

14 Many wild fish populations are

15 healthy and abundant. In Bristol Bay, between

16 25 million and 65 million sockeye salmon

17 return in a month. They are harvested by more

18 than 2500 small boats and set-net operations.

19 Those who harvest most species of wild fish

20 appreciate the exuberance they exhibit as they

21 swim freely around in our oceans and in

22 healthy and richly-biodiverse coastal regions.
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1 Economic interests want to rear

2 high-value species in the cheapest way

3 possible, and they would be replicating the

4 worst practices of factory farms on land in

5 our marine environment. They may offer

6 arguments about feeding the world, but

7 independent scientists have

8 demonstrated that --

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

10 MS. MOSNESS: -- that raising

11 those carnivorous species results in a net

12 loss of protein.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

14 much.

15 Any questions for Dr. Mosness?

16 MS. MOSNESS: Would you like me to

17 pass out the statement that I have then?

18 There's a couple more sentences.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure.

20 MS. MOSNESS: Thank you.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Beth Unger, you

22 are up, and Didier Jacquet is standing by.
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1 MS. UNGER: Thank you.

2 I am Beth Unger from CROPP

3 Cooperative.

4 I am not going to go into any

5 lengthy introductions. I am going to try the

6 three-minute drill here.

7 I want to thank the Livestock

8 Committee for considering the public comment

9 and editing your documents. Those are some

10 very good improvements. It has been a long

11 road, and we understand the need that you have

12 to move forward and go on to other business.

13 But we strongly suggest that you continue to

14 listen to public comment today, as you have

15 thus far, and take what you hear back to the

16 Committee and come back in the fall with a

17 blended document that will be easier for the

18 entire community to understand and comment on.

19 And as you do so, I would strongly

20 suggest that you take time to consider all the

21 comments and seek stakeholder input to make a

22 stronger document. It will be a year from now
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1 before the full impact of the pasture rule

2 will be known to the organic community, but,

3 you know, I can tell you that, so far, it has

4 created a lot of pain and agony and increased

5 paperwork and what will surely be increased

6 inspection time. That is a burden

7 particularly for the smaller family farms

8 which we so dearly support. So, these are

9 items that need to be taken into consideration

10 as you go forward with this document.

11 I briefly want to touch on the

12 transportation and slaughter doc. I think

13 there has been some very good public comment

14 on it today. We appreciate very much the

15 rewrites that happened. It improved the

16 document considerably, but there was a

17 gentleman earlier that made some pretty good

18 points regarding the effect that it could have

19 on smaller businesses. These need to be taken

20 into further consideration.

21 And, also, there was some public

22 comment online that I wish I could speak to a
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1 little more clearly. But I don't remember it

2 and I have one minute left. I have got to

3 move along here.

4 (Laughter.)

5 So, you know, talk to some of

6 these smaller businesses that have been

7 mentioned in the public comment. See how it

8 affects and how you could come to something

9 that is meaningful for the entire community

10 and doesn't hurt the smaller businesses.

11 Nutrient vitamins and minerals.

12 Jay, I agree with the suggestion that you put

13 forth to the Board yesterday about coming

14 annotation change that clarifies. And to

15 that, I would like to speak to the Board as a

16 whole. Please get this work done tomorrow.

17 It is critically important.

18 I think the best course of action

19 is to change that annotation to include 109.1

20 and 107.100. It clarifies and aligns with the

21 1995 NOSB recommendation that we have been

22 talking about since the beginning of this
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1 conversation.

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Beth.

4 Mac?

5 MR. STONE: Beth, what percentage

6 of your all's producers are bumping into the

7 30 percent, 120-day grazing rule?

8 MS. UNGER: None of them. At

9 least that is our sincere hope. This has been

10 a policy on our books for a pretty long time.

11 So, this was not any news to us.

12 But I will tell you, Mac -- and,

13 as a certifier, I am glad to have the

14 opportunity to address that with you -- the

15 paperwork burden that has come forth as a part

16 of that pasture rule has been pretty difficult

17 to deal with.

18 MR. STONE: Good. I was hoping

19 that was where you were going with that.

20 (Laughter.)

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

22 MR. MARAVELL: I wanted to
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1 address, you to address, rather, some aspects

2 of the animal welfare standards. You

3 mentioned, and following up a little bit on

4 what you just mentioned about the paperwork

5 requirement from the access to pasture rule,

6 we are sending things out. Farmers have to

7 respond.

8 But do you see the animal welfare

9 aspect as being somewhat comparable in terms

10 of impact? Or do you see that perhaps the

11 impact is different, either greater or less?

12 MS. UNGER: Both. Whatever goes

13 into rulemaking is going to come out to the

14 certifiers where they are going to have to

15 adjust their application and renewal forms to

16 include any additional rulemaking, which goes

17 off to the farmers in terms of additional

18 information on their organic system plans,

19 additional recordkeeping requirements to

20 assure compliance, and most painful of all is

21 getting the livestock inspectors up-to-speed

22 to deal with these issues.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I saw another

2 hand. Jay?

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, thank you.

4 Thanks, Beth.

5 My question goes to comparability.

6 The crop standards in terms of animal welfare,

7 how do they compare with what the Livestock

8 Committee is proposing?

9 MS. UNGER: I guess to put it in a

10 summary form -- it was hard to go through this

11 on a point-by-point basis -- our standards are

12 higher than what has been presented by the

13 Committee. And we have a method of internal

14 inspections, and this is a new program for us.

15 So, we definitely have a lot of work to do on

16 it.

17 For instance, on the outdoor

18 access for poultry, we have a five-square-foot

19 requirement, and you have two in the document.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other

21 questions?

22 (No response.)
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1 Thank you.

2 MS. UNGER: Thank you.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Didier Jacquet,

4 you are up next, and Dag Falck is standing by.

5 MR. JACQUET: Good morning.

6 So, my name is Didier Jacquet, and

7 I am a winemaker and quality control

8 professional, active since 1997 both in the

9 United States and Europe. And my specialty is

10 certified organic sparkling wine, which I

11 pioneered in the U.S. with LaRocca Vineyards

12 out of Forest Ranch, California.

13 So, quality wine is produced every

14 day in this country and elsewhere without the

15 use of synthetic additives such as sulfur

16 dioxide. I felt it was important for the sake

17 of the organic wine industry that I address

18 this Board on that issue.

19 SO2 is an industrially-produced

20 additive used as an antioxidant and

21 preservative in many foods and beverages

22 across the globe. Three main forms are
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1 commonly used in wine: pure gas, liquid

2 solution, and powder known as potassium

3 metabisulfite, or KMBS.

4 That latter form introduces

5 potassium, which is another source of concerns

6 in terms of consumer health. There is no

7 obligation for producers to disclose which

8 form of SO2 they use in wine.

9 As a winemaker, I have used SO2

10 before converting organic. It mandates the

11 use of cartridge respirator, gloves, and

12 goggles in the winery. Even with this

13 equipment, I personally experience discomfort

14 every time I use these additives.

15 As the winery emitted the product,

16 we used large extraction fans, as we are

17 instructed to end all additions one hour to

18 the first public tour.

19 I have attached the MSDSes of

20 commonly-used forms of SO2 to illustrate this

21 topic. They speak for themselves.

22 From an environment, health, and
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1 safety standpoint, these products should be

2 phased out of the wine industry altogether

3 sooner or later. In wine, SO2 has a definite

4 smell and taste, often described as metallic

5 and harsh, modifying the natural taste of the

6 grape, even at relatively-low concentrations.

7 In excess levels, the aroma is described as

8 pungent, sharp, and soapy.

9 Heavily-sulfurated red wines often

10 lack suppleness, delicacy, and exhibit

11 decreases color properties due to the

12 bleaching effect of SO2. SO2 has been known

13 to cause severe allergic reactions, which

14 prompted legislation to impose labeling for

15 wine, but not in other food products such as

16 raisins, for instance.

17 Viable alternatives exist, such as

18 better cleanliness in the cellar, filtration,

19 and use of inert gases to protect against

20 oxidation. Unlike SO2, these gases are not

21 retained in the finished product.

22 There is no credible data to
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1 substantiate that wines produced without added

2 SO2 have a shorter lifespan, if handled

3 properly like any wine. There is significant

4 difference in the evolution of the wine over

5 time, however, as SO2 is an inhibitor of

6 enzymatic reactions, which true organic wine

7 producers believe are essential for the

8 quality of their wines.

9 If sulfites are allowed in USDA

10 organic wines, I wonder what will be next,

11 genetically-modified grapes, yeast, and

12 bacteria, industrial nutrients such as DAP or

13 diaminophosphate. They are already being used

14 in conventional winemaking, which should not

15 be allowed in a truly natural food product

16 where only the freshest and unspoiled

17 ingredients should be included.

18 There is a great risk of

19 confusion --

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

21 MR. JACQUET: -- and discredit

22 from --
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

2 MR. JACQUET: -- the consumer

3 labeling laws of their country to be in their

4 best interest.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, sir.

6 MR. JACQUET: Yes.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Questions?

8 MR. JACQUET: Absolutely.

9 MR. FELDMAN: Indulge me. As a

10 Frenchman, how does California wine compare to

11 French wine?

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. JACQUET: It would be

14 comparing pears and oranges.

15 (Laughter.)

16 We grow grapes in very different

17 places under very different conditions. So,

18 there's no possible comparison. Your

19 preference and your taste should be what leads

20 your choice.

21 (Laughter and applause.)

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.
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1 MR. JACQUET: Any more questions?

2 (No response.)

3 All right. Thank you very much.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We will have one

5 more comment before the break here, Dag Falck.

6 MR. FALCK: I am Dag Falck,

7 Organic Program Manager for Nature's Path

8 Food, North America's largest certified

9 organic cereal producer.

10 We have submitted comments,

11 written comments, on several of the issues on

12 the agenda, but now I will cover only two

13 issues that are not on the agenda, GMOs and

14 the confusion and threat to organic by the

15 natural label.

16 GMO. The issue of GMO

17 contamination has developed over the last few

18 years to a point where it could threaten the

19 survival of organic. I am going to make two

20 points.

21 One, the organic regulations are a

22 practice standard. We have all agreed that
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1 organic should be ascertained through

2 prescribed practices, not through testing or

3 finished product purity for things like

4 pesticide residue. However, in the case of

5 GMOs, I argue that effective and appropriate

6 practices cannot be implemented without the

7 use of testing and thresholds.

8 My second point is many organic

9 manufacturers are now aware that GMO

10 contamination is creeping into organic

11 products, and there are varying efforts being

12 made to prevent this. Even though many know

13 this, many do not and question if there really

14 is a problem of contamination out there.

15 To establish whether or not

16 additional measures need to be taken, we

17 recommend that a thorough industry-wide study

18 of current levels of GMO contamination in

19 certified organic raw commodities like soy,

20 corn, and cotton meal, and canola should be

21 done.

22 Without such a study to establish
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1 a baseline and more adequately addressing

2 potential contamination, the organic label is

3 in danger of losing consumer confidence. This

4 study must be undertaken by an NOSB and NOP

5 agreed-upon body in order to provide the

6 required credibility of a study like that.

7 As random pesticide testing is

8 being ramped up by the NOP, this is a good

9 time to also do GMO testing. To bury our

10 heads in the sand on this issue will not serve

11 us well when contamination levels get out of

12 hand and we haven't done anything about it.

13 On the issue of natural claims

14 infringing on organic markets, according to a

15 Heartland Consumer study which is in my

16 handout to you, more than half of consumers

17 think that a natural claim means more than the

18 organic claim. This, of course, is not true

19 as there is no regulation or even a consistent

20 definition for natural. The consumer then

21 believes they are getting organic benefits

22 through buying natural, which undermines the
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1 very industry that we are building.

2 The reason most of us are involved

3 with building this organic industry is to

4 provide benefit to environments, people's

5 health and livelihoods. None of those

6 benefits are being realized when the organic

7 industry does not defend its turf.

8 The NOP preamble states that the

9 final rule was implemented to provide a common

10 set of definitions on organic attributes. Now

11 those attributes are being undermined in the

12 marketplace by inconsistent and unregulated

13 natural claims.

14 Nature's Path believes that the

15 NOSB should take responsibility for defending

16 the organic claim by, one, asking for an NOP17 led campaign for public education about

18 organic attributes and, two, asking for

19 enforcement on truth in labeling and require

20 purported natural attributes to be labeled

21 specifically.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.
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1 Any questions for Mr. Falck?

2 Nick has a question here in just a

3 moment.

4 MR. MARAVELL: I have a question,

5 but I need -- well, let me come out with it,

6 even though I haven't thought it through and

7 reviewed your testimony.

8 First, a conflict of interest. I

9 do eat your products.

10 (Laughter.)

11 But are you saying that you

12 believe that there should be a tolerance level

13 for GMO contamination or there should not be

14 an established tolerance level for GMO

15 contamination in commodities?

16 MR. FALCK: I think there is a lot

17 of confusion around that discussion. I would

18 not call it a tolerance level. I would call

19 it a threshold level, which I think needs to

20 be established in order to establish an

21 appropriate and effective practice.

22 We would have to focus on this
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1 being a practice standard, but in order for us

2 to practice, we do need to see where the

3 contamination is. We are now practicing

4 without knowing when something is

5 contaminated. So, we say, the NOP says that

6 we cannot knowingly add GMOs in our products

7 while growing or processing, but we don't know

8 if it is there. So, it is kind of

9 meaningless.

10 We cannot apply the practice

11 without the tool of testing. And if you are

12 going to test, you need to have a threshold in

13 order to make it meaningful, so that you have

14 a goalpost. So, it is not an allowance.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure, Nick.

16 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, a followup

17 question. There are agricultural inputs and,

18 then, there are agricultural products or raw

19 commodities -- let's call them raw

20 commodities -- and, then, there are products

21 that are produced through the handling

22 procedures.
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1 You run different places in that

2 continuum. Are you suggesting that thresholds

3 be established for all of those areas or just

4 some of those areas? And would the thresholds

5 -- well, you can't predict anything about the

6 thresholds now. But are you suggesting that

7 we look at all of those areas for potential

8 threshold situations?

9 MR. FALCK: Yes, I think all the

10 levels need to be addressed. There might be

11 some differences in the way it is addressed.

12 Nature's Path has enrolled our

13 products in the Non-GMO Project because we

14 feel the NOP is not stringent enough and

15 effective enough in addressing the GMO issue.

16 So, we feel like we needed to have an

17 additional step for consistency in approaching

18 the issue, and we are hoping that the whole

19 industry will work together.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac?

21 MR. FALCK: And so, we are

22 suggesting that the NOP address this and
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1 incorporate more stringent rules.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac Stone?

3 MR. STONE: What is the technology

4 for screening and/or more definitive levels of

5 contamination? And is the contamination

6 coming out of the field or as part of the

7 handling process?

8 MR. FALCK: Those are some of the

9 questions that we think really need to be

10 established. We don't currently know exactly

11 where the contamination sources are coming

12 from. Some are coming from seeds in the

13 fields, and some are coming from handling.

14 And we feel like, without testing,

15 again, we are not actually applying the tool

16 that we need to apply in order to find out

17 where the heights of the most contamination is

18 coming, in order for us to, then, increase our

19 efforts to keep it out.

20 So, all of those levels have to be

21 addressed and looked at. Currently, through

22 the NOP, we are not driven to do that. There
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1 is nothing that drives us to do that. So,

2 that is the entirely voluntary thing right

3 now, if companies want to do that or not. So,

4 there is no consistency.

5 MR. STONE: And is there a litmus

6 test that says the presence versus more

7 analytical definitions?

8 MR. FALCK: We think that there

9 are two systems of testing out there. One is

10 a strip test, where it is an operator-applied,

11 very simple test. It costs about $3 per test.

12 But it is not very accurate. And so, it is a

13 good guideline, but we believe that, like the

14 Non-GMO Project requires, is a PCR laboratory

15 test which is much more accurate, that that is

16 used as a part of the system.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

18 questions?

19 (No response.)

20 MR. FALCK: Thank you.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, we are going

22 to take a 15-minute break. That puts us back
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1 here at 9:56. Board members, please be seated

2 at 9:56.

3 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

4 went off the record at 9:42 a.m. and resumed

5 at 10:04 a.m.)

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We're back in

7 session.

8 First up is Elissa Sosland.

9 MS. SOSLAND: Thank you.

10 My name is Elissa Sosland, and I

11 am the Farm Animal Program Associate at the

12 Animal Welfare Institute in Washington, D.C.

13 At AWI, we work on policy issues

14 that affect the welfare of farm animals. We

15 support high-welfare family farms, and we work

16 toward goals to achieve more humane transport

17 and slaughter.

18 We also operate the Animal

19 Welfare-Approved Program that I know many of

20 you are familiar with. Fifty-eight percent of

21 the farms in the Animal Welfare-Approved

22 Program are dual-enrolled in the USDA National
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1 Organic Program.

2 We have been following the

3 progress of NOP's proposed standards for

4 animal welfare for the past few years, and we

5 commend your efforts to propose standards that

6 address animal welfare under USDA organic. We

7 believe setting standards according to good

8 animal welfare practices under the Organic

9 Program will bring the level of the program up

10 to match what consumers already expect from

11 the label when they buy organic animal

12 products and byproducts.

13 We do have some concerns. We

14 strongly urge the Board to improve these

15 deficiencies in stocking rates for growing

16 pigs and chickens, in particular, before

17 submitting the proposal to the USDA.

18 We are really happy to see that

19 you have increased the proposed stocking

20 densities for growing pigs. We note, however,

21 that the stocking rates are still well below

22 that of Canada organic.
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1 And one thing we would really like

2 to see is harmonization between the U.S.,

3 Canada, and EU organic programs for the sake

4 of consistency and clarity.

5 The current proposed standards do

6 not satisfy the U.S. and Canada equivalency

7 agreement under which U.S. agricultural

8 products derived from animals must be produced

9 according to livestock stocking rates, as set

10 out in the Canada organic standards.

11 The current NOSB proposed space

12 allowances for chickens and pigs do not meet

13 the Canadian standard.

14 For poultry, we see a similar

15 problem. Poultry expert Anne Fanatico has

16 quoted some organic certifiers looking for

17 stocking densities of 1.5 square feet per bird

18 outdoors. So, the stocking rate of 1 square

19 foot per meat chicken in the proposed

20 standards seems to be less than what organic

21 certifiers would look for. These would appear

22 to be a step down for the welfare of the
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1 birds. We also contrast that with Animal

2 Welfare-approved program requirements of 4

3 square feet per bird outdoors, which just

4 highlights the deficiency there.

5 Thank you for your efforts to

6 create animal welfare standards to improve the

7 treatment of farm animals under the Organic

8 Program. The proposed standards are a great

9 start, but we do see some problem areas that

10 we think should be improved.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

12 much.

13 Any questions?

14 (No response.)

15 All right. Next up, Phil LaRocca.

16 Harriet Behar is standing by.

17 MR. LaROCCA: Good morning.

18 My name is Phil LaRocca. I am the

19 owner of LaRocca Vineyards. I have been in

20 the organic industry for over 38 years, 30 of

21 those in the wine industry, 28 of those

22 running my own operation. Pretty much my
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1 entire income comes off my organic wine

2 production. I am a part-time professor at

3 Butte Community College where I teach

4 viticulture as well.

5 I also served as Past President of

6 the California Organic Farmers. During that

7 time, I worked very close with this Board to

8 create the present rule that you have today

9 regarding wine. I was very instrumental in

10 getting what we have today.

11 This was not an easy thing to do

12 because the Food and Production Act of 1990

13 absolutely outlawed the use of sulfur dioxide

14 in any form of organic production. So, there

15 was a lot of backdoor politicking.

16 I may add that this rule did not

17 affect me at the time because I have always

18 been 100 percent organic in that. But I felt

19 that those that were growing the grapes

20 organically should be allowed some form of

21 recognition. So, we worked very hard. We had

22 to deal with Senators from the State of
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1 California and Senators from the State of

2 Kentucky to actually get the Boxer Amendment

3 which allowed for the made-with organic

4 category. And that is what it was allowed

5 for, and that is what this Board passed.

6 And for the last 10 years, it has

7 been quite successful. There has been over

8 133 percent increase in wine, organic wine and

9 those made with organic grapes, since the

10 adoption of this rule.

11 Being a hot-headed Italian, I am a

12 little bit angered at having to do this 10

13 years later because this is working quite

14 well. There is no need for a change.

15 Earlier today, people were talking

16 about the label, the label. As a licensed

17 winemaker, I can use between 112 and 118

18 different synthetic products in my wine. The

19 only one that is required by law -- required

20 by law -- is the use of sulfur dioxide in

21 wine. This would be an absolute oxymoron to

22 have a warning label contains sulfites next to
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1 the USDA organic seal. This would be

2 detrimental to the entire organic community.

3 And if there is anything that you

4 remember what I say today, it is that this

5 label represents truth and integrity in

6 organic. We can never compromise integrity.

7 You would be hurting the industry to do so.

8 There have also been arguments

9 which I passed out which say that the organic

10 industry is not growing. Contrary to that

11 fact, we see that in the last four years CCOF

12 showed a 77 percent growth in wine grapes. We

13 also saw that in the last year, in 2010, which

14 was a bad year in the economy -- I am talking

15 so fast here -- that Christine Bushway, the

16 Organic Trade Association, in her State-of17 the-Union Organic Address at the Annual

18 Meeting of the CCOF said, "If organic saw a 4

19 percent growth, that would be considered very

20 good in this economy." Wine experienced a 12

21 percent growth, and wine grape production

22 experienced a 15 percent growth.
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1 Now I have been around here for a

2 long time. I was the first certified apple

3 grower. I was told you could never grow an

4 organic apple. This is not true. This was

5 told to me by the head of the Pomology

6 Department at the University of California,

7 Davis.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, sir.

9 MR. LaROCCA: You're welcome.

10 (Laughter.)

11 I talk a lot. So, to go three

12 minutes is hard.

13 (Laughter.)

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions for

15 Mr. LaRocca? Nick?

16 MR. MARAVELL: Just a point of

17 clarification. Those increases are for

18 California or nationwide?

19 MR. LaROCCA: Well, let's just put

20 it this way: 93 percent of all wine

21 production is from the State of California.

22 So, when we are talking wine -- I know this is
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1 a new Board. So, if there's any questions of

2 how we put this rule together, I would love to

3 share that with you. I couldn't tell you the

4 whole process in three minutes, but I spent

5 over a thousand hours working with this Board

6 to come up with this made-with category and

7 the certified organic wine.

8 And how we did it was like a

9 backdoor deal. We actually piggybacked it on

10 a bill that is something to the effect that

11 said: allow senior citizens to get a discount

12 in generic drugs. Oh, and by the way, sulfur

13 dioxide could be put in the made-with

14 category.

15 (Laughter.)

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other

17 questions for Mr. LaRocca? Melissa Bailey?

18 MS. BAILEY: Melissa Bailey, NOP.

19 I think it was Nick who asked --

20 pardon me if I am wrong -- about the sulfite

21 statement, the requirement from TTB. So, we

22 have a clarification on that, just to
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1 contribute to the discussion that the

2 requirement for the sulfite declaration is

3 that it shall be stated on a front label, back

4 label, strip label, or neck label. So, the

5 fact that there is so variety there about

6 where it can be, there is no requirement that

7 it necessarily be on the front label.

8 MR. MARAVELL: Thank you very

9 much.

10 MR. LaROCCA: Thank you.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Harriet Behar is

12 up next. Mohamed Mousa is standing by.

13 MS. BEHAR: Hello, everyone.

14 I have a few -- I know I have to

15 be announced -- so I have a few comments based

16 on what has happened yesterday.

17 I want to just ask that the animal

18 welfare standards go back. I don't feel that

19 they are ready to be put forward into The

20 Federal Register for public comment or even to

21 go to the NOP.

22 I think they need to balance
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1 practicality in that language that provides

2 consumer confidence. I think there is also a

3 need to be more in step with the Canadian and

4 EU regulations because those are our sister

5 standards.

6 And, then, on another topic, I

7 would like to talk about yesterday's

8 discussion, or lack of discussion, among the

9 Board. Many of us come to these meetings to

10 hear you discuss, and you are stakeholders

11 representing many different aspects of the

12 organic community. And we really need to hear

13 a discussion.

14 Even if you agree with the

15 proposal, we need to hear, well, the handler

16 likes it because it helps with their inputs;

17 the farmer likes it because it is practice, or

18 vice versa, the consumers are concerned about

19 health effects.

20 And yesterday's lack of discussion

21 makes it very difficult for us here in the

22 audience to, then, go back to our constituents
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1 and say, "Well, you know, this is why the

2 decision was made because this priority came

3 forward from this stakeholder group."

4 So, I just wanted to encourage

5 you. I think the discussion is very important

6 for you all to also build community.

7 And I know that you were

8 discussing in committee, but that is not

9 transparent. We don't see it out there in the

10 audience. We cannot, then, pass that on to

11 our constituents and get by it.

12 And I will tell you that that's

13 something that I do a lot with my farmers.

14 People do ask me, "Why was that material

15 approved?" or "How come it was written this

16 way?" That is why I come to these meetings.

17 So, then, I can pass that on. And when I

18 explain it was a compromise between these

19 issues, then they have buy-in and we can move

20 forward as a community.

21 I wanted to also talk quickly

22 about TAP reviews. I think we need to ask the
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1 NOP to start working with a whole variety of

2 scientists that are going to be in waiting to

3 be, when you have handling issues, livestock

4 issues, pest control, crop issues. We need to

5 be starting to train these people about what

6 compatibility with an organic system means

7 because I think you are having a lot of

8 problems with your TAP reviews because you

9 don't have people who are prepared to do the

10 work that you need to do.

11 And you don't know what is coming

12 down the pike. So, you need to start

13 identifying a pool of reviewers. And I think

14 you really need to go back to the three-person

15 TAP review.

16 I received a phone call about

17 sodium nitrate, and I would just say that I

18 don't believe that my opinion --

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you,

20 Harriet.

21 MS. BEHAR: -- was expressed. And

22 so, don't believe that whole survey. That was
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1 somewhat, from my opinion, a fraud.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you,

3 Harriet.

4 I see some questions. Let's start

5 with Katrina, then Jay, then Nick.

6 MS. HEINZE: Okay. Could you

7 finish that last thought? Because I'm not

8 sure we want that hanging out there.

9 (Laughter.)

10 MS. BEHAR: I was called by

11 someone who was hired by a company that

12 produces sodium nitrate. I didn't write it

13 down, who it was. And, then, they said, "So,

14 you agree with keeping sodium nitrate as

15 written on the National List?" 

16 And I said, "Well, no, actually, I

17 do not."

18 And they said, "Well, we'll mark

19 you down as being in line with this proposal."

20 And I said, "No, you won't."

21 And, then, they said, "Well, we

22 really appreciate you giving us your opinion
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1 that you're going to be right there with us."

2 And I was like, "No, I'm not, and

3 I want my name written down as saying, `No, I

4 don't.'"

5 And I don't know what you

6 received, but I really doubt that my name is

7 written down as being opposed. So, I don't

8 know.

9 The questions were very leading,

10 and I just don't feel like it was a very

11 objective survey.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

13 Any? Jay?

14 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

15 Harriet, can you tell us some

16 more, a little more detail, the elements of a

17 TAP review, you know, what the various

18 elements of a TAP review are as compared to a

19 technical review, which we are getting now?

20 We are all getting these technical reviews, as

21 you know. How do you distinguish that? Give

22 us a little more detail on the composition of
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1 TAP panels and how that would better inform

2 our decisions at the Committee level and the

3 Board level?

4 MS. BEHAR: Well, I know in the

5 past we have had at least three people, and in

6 those TAP reviews there was written debate

7 between those, and there wasn't always

8 agreement between the three people who were on

9 that TAP panel. That I think helped frame the

10 issues for the Board, to really see that these

11 are not black-and-white issues, and the

12 various competing ideas and science would come

13 forward. It gave the Board much more of a

14 broad range of what the issues really were.

15 I just feel, too, that you can't

16 have one group of scientists being able to

17 handle handling questions, you know, like food

18 science versus pest control in an orchard.

19 You need to start assembling a whole pool of

20 possible TAP reviewers. So, when you have a

21 pest control issue in crops, you have got

22 these people you can pull upon who have
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1 expertise in that area.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

3 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, I would like

4 to go back to your comments on the livestock

5 standards. Is there some other process that

6 you might envision, other than the one that --

7 I mean we tried our hardest here to meet

8 expectations. But is there some other process

9 that you might suggest that might get us

10 closer on our first try?

11 MS. BEHAR: Well, I would have

12 liked to have seen along in the chart the

13 animal humane standards being compared, but,

14 also, having EU and Canada up there as well,

15 so we could see what our sister organic

16 standards had.

17 I think there were so many

18 substantial changes yesterday that we really

19 need to go out to the larger community and

20 find out what those effects will be.

21 So, I know that you were

22 listening, but I feel that there's many people
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1 not here that will be affected. So, we need

2 to kind of go out and give people more chance.

3 This is way too big of an issue to kind of

4 feel like we have to get it done right now.

5 MR. MARAVELL: Who is the "we"

6 when you say, "We need to go out."? Is that

7 just the NOSB or?

8 MS. BEHAR: The process of those

9 recommendations will go out. It will give a

10 chance to certifiers, people like Moses who

11 are dealing with far more organizations, to

12 then say, "How do you feel about these new

13 proposals? Are these more in line with what

14 you are willing to do or capable of doing, or

15 how will this affect you in the long-run?"

16 So, I guess the farmer

17 organizations, NODPA, you know, the organic

18 dairy producers, et cetera.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina?

20 MS. ELLOR: Just to answer a few

21 of those concerns, we have been working on

22 this since 2007. It has gone back and forth.
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1 We have gotten our ears pinned back so many

2 times.

3 (Laughter.)

4 And we also heard from a lot of

5 constituency that said, "Get something done.

6 Get some rules that everyone needs to follow."

7 And we do have a lot of support for this

8 amongst a lot of farmers.

9 MS. BEHAR: I just feel like there

10 was a lot of changes yesterday that many of us

11 haven't had a chance to digest. We need to

12 ruminate a little more.

13 (Laughter.)

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

15 Mohamed Mousa is at the podium.

16 Seri Sedlacek is standing by.

17 MR. MOUSA: My name is Mohamed

18 Mousa.

19 Thank you very much for giving me

20 this opportunity to address you.

21 I have been in this business for

22 35 years, and I am a geneticist by education
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1 and also immune system development in poultry.

2 I am here today to speak about science, and I

3 really want you to give the science in your

4 program. What a great program. My heart goes

5 out to you and my support to you with

6 everything you are doing.

7 I want to make sure that I open

8 that part of science which I see personally

9 and may be misinformed, but not enough, that

10 it is missing from what I read about your

11 program.

12 First, I will talk about bird

13 welfare. We are here, everybody here, even if

14 it is a few birds or a thousands or 10,000 or

15 more, bird welfare is important. Mixing the

16 birds, the domesticated birds with the wild

17 reservoir, it is a major, major undertaking.

18 In this country, over 50 years or

19 so now, the industry developed a system which

20 can eradicate all diseases. If we leave the

21 birds outside to be mixed with the wild

22 reservoir under any reasons, we are going to
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1 impact the organic movement and, also, the

2 non-organic.

3 The other issue, Greg Herbruck,

4 when he talked here, talked about ILT. I have

5 a farm currently, and today, because I leave

6 the birds out, and geese and ducks from the

7 wild birds are there, and I couldn't keep the

8 birds in because the temperature was over 60

9 degrees, we lost several thousand birds. It

10 is a big loss.

11 The other issue is the pullets and

12 vaccination. There are two things happening

13 in those baby chicks when we receive them, and

14 we take care of them just like our children

15 and grandchildren. You vaccinate them. They

16 are not ready to go outside and fight all

17 these field viruses and bacteria until we get

18 them vaccinated.

19 The other issue I want to speak

20 about is the issue is food safety. The food

21 safety is a major issue. We operate under a

22 different climate in the United States. This
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1 is a continent. You know, if you have feed

2 and water and you put it outside the birds,

3 like what Mr. Joseph asked the question, what

4 you do, you are going to invite rats; every

5 other animal or bird can come down to eat with

6 those. Then, you are contaminating the feed

7 and contaminating the birds and, also,

8 contaminating the eggs.

9 Dr. Peter Holt from USDA in

10 Watkinsville, Georgia, I have got it in here

11 in my handout. You are going to have, if the

12 soil is contaminated for any reason, you are

13 going to have PCPs, DDT, whatever was in the

14 soil. Dioxin, north Germany was shut

15 completely in the last few months because of

16 only dioxin.

17 Thank you for listening to me.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

19 much.

20 Any questions? Tina?

21 MS. ELLOR: So, what you are

22 saying is that you don't think birds should be
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1 allowed, you don't think chickens should be

2 allowed to go outside?

3 MR. MOUSA: No, I said early I

4 approve your program. The birds can go

5 outside and poultry can go outside in a

6 controlled environment that you know they are

7 safe and the soil is not contaminated. I have

8 birds outside, and I apply these rules to

9 them.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy?

11 MS. ELLOR: If you are letting

12 organic birds outside on organic soil, I am

13 not sure what the contamination problem would

14 be.

15 MR. MOUSA: This is very

16 interesting. There is in Brazil a test that

17 the soil was not even used for nine years.

18 You have it in your packet over here. It is

19 in the presentation from Victor Hall. They

20 had 1,000 DDT level toxins in the eggs after

21 nine years from stopping using it. It is in

22 the soil because the bird is not a grazing
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1 animal. Birds go down in the soil and dig and

2 inhale and, also, absorb a lot of what the

3 soil contains.

4 In a town in south Egypt, a small

5 village in south Egypt, I have this report, if

6 anybody wants to see it. They had a gold mine

7 from the time of the pharaohs, 4 or 5 thousand

8 years ago. Five percent of every infant that

9 was born in that village was blind before they

10 get to 6 years old. They found out that this

11 is from the chemical that was used, and it is

12 in the soil.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy?

14 MS. FULWIDER: I believe that is

15 probably the exception to the rule. But my

16 concern would be, you know, we have a lot of

17 organic poultry farms where they do have the

18 chickens having outdoor access. I don't

19 believe there has been any significant problem

20 with Salmonella or anything else.

21 MR. MOUSA: Does anybody check?

22 And is the soil checked?
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1 I will ask the panel over here to

2 put in all those outside ranches like what

3 they did over in England and, also, what Dr.

4 Ken Anderson did over in North Carolina, put

5 the science in there. You will get more

6 information.

7 I believe the science has no place

8 with this panel at this time, and I can prove

9 that to you from all the research I have. I

10 have 150 researches from Europe and the United

11 States.

12 I am not saying the birds don't go

13 out. I am saying the birds go out under a

14 controlled, clean environment. That is what

15 I am saying.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

17 MR. MOUSA: Thank you.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Next up, Seri

19 Sedlacek. Josh Hinerfeld is standing by.

20 MS. SEDLACEK: Hi. My name is

21 Seri Sedlacek. I work for Badger Mountain

22 Vineyard and Powers Winery in Kennewick,
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1 Washington.

2 We are unique in the world of wine

3 because we produce all three tiers, certified

4 organic with the USDA certified seal, which we

5 put no sulfites in. We make a made-with6 organic-grapes in which we do add small

7 amounts of sulfites, and we make conventional

8 wine under the Powers label.

9 I have worked for this winery for

10 six years. I can say from my personal

11 experience that, when I pour all three at a

12 table, I have given up predicting what a

13 consumer will call quality or not. It seems

14 to me the premise of the petition before you

15 was based a lot on quality wine is better with

16 sulfites added because it is a preservative,

17 and I don't find that to be true in my

18 experience, nor does my winery.

19 I am also an avid organic

20 consumer, and I serve on the Board of the PCC

21 Farmland Trust. So, I am definitely an

22 advocate of organics of all kind.
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1 For the last nine years, our

2 winery has embraced educating the public on

3 what that USDA seal means and why we are proud

4 to have that symbol on our wines. As you

5 know, educating the consumer takes time.

6 We embrace it completely, and so

7 do our consumers, as our no-sulfite-added

8 series has increased 250 percent over the last

9 nine years. We make just over 30,000 cases in

10 that category, and it outsells/outpaces the

11 growth of our other wines.

12 The current standards are easy to

13 explain. They protect the consumer. They are

14 clear and they represent pure, authentic

15 organics with no additives.

16 Consumers who are seeking organic

17 wines are very savvy and most definitely ask

18 a lot of questions, as I know Mr. LaRocca

19 would back me up as well. We get phone calls

20 every day about what that means, and we are

21 happy to take the time to explain it.

22 I have sold wines for nearly 20
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1 years, and we are storytellers. We talk about

2 vineyards and trellising and pH and acid, and

3 we also tell the story of why the USDA symbol

4 is very important to us.

5 Consumers are getting it. I

6 encourage you to believe that the consumers

7 are smart and savvy, and that they can make

8 decisions based on what is on the label. When

9 you start adding products life sulfites to

10 wine, it gets to be very murky. It is not a

11 black-and-white story to tell anymore. It is

12 very confusing.

13 I just want to conclude in saying,

14 in 1986, before it was a marketing buzz, our

15 owner, Bill Powers, decided to transition our

16 vineyard from conventional farming to organic

17 farming. And he did it because he believed in

18 the process, and now we make the three levels

19 of wine.

20 It takes courage to be the first.

21 We were the first certified organic wine grape

22 vineyard in Washington, way behind Mr.
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1 LaRocca, but the Washington wine history is

2 fledgling compared to what they are in

3 California.

4 But the reality is I believe in

5 authentic, pure organics, and that means no

6 additives of any kind.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

8 Steve?

9 MR. DeMURI: So, are you finding

10 in your conversations with consumers that

11 there is a lot of confusion out there

12 regarding this issue?

13 MS. SEDLACEK: That isn't my

14 experience at all, and it is quite contrary to

15 the survey that accompanied the petition. In

16 the petition, I believe there were 166 people

17 that were contacted. Sixty-three were in

18 Minnesota, twenty-three were in Colorado, and

19 two were on the West Coast. I don't know

20 where most of the organics are sold in the

21 nation, but I would speculate that perhaps on

22 the West Coast we sell a higher percentage
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1 than .01 percent.

2 It is a story to be told, and I

3 know a lot of wine stores that spend a lot of

4 time explaining it, but that doesn't make it

5 any less valuable.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Go ahead, Steve.

7 MR. DeMURI: One other question I

8 was curious about, organic wines that have the

9 USDA seal on them, do some winemakers also put

10 "no sulfites" on that label as well?

11 MS. SEDLACEK: We do. We actually

12 put "No sulfites added." And ours always test

13 out below the 10-parts-per-million level. It

14 is a notification to our consumers, and it

15 also makes it a difference between our made16 with-organic-grapes label that we do add

17 sulfites to.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: You mentioned that

19 your no-sulfite portfolio is performing very

20 well. Do you have no-sulfite conventional

21 wines or know how no-sulfite conventional

22 wines are performing out there?
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1 MS. SEDLACEK: I do not have that

2 statistic.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: You don't have

4 conventionally-grown grapes?

5 MS. SEDLACEK: Yes, I would think

6 that if the winery is going to go to the

7 effort of making a wine with no sulfites, that

8 they would declare it as such.

9 I know that there are a lot of

10 organic wine grape growers that don't bottle

11 their wine organically, but it is seldom in

12 the reverse.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I think I was

14 asking more conventional grapes, but no

15 sulfites. Is that a category of wine that is

16 grown --

17 MS. SEDLACEK: Not that I am

18 familiar with.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Okay. Yes,

20 I was just curious.

21 Thank you.

22 MS. SEDLACEK: Thanks.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jose Hinerfeld,

2 and Kathy Pryor is standing by.

3 MR. HINERFELD: Good morning.

4 My name is Josh Hinerfeld, and I

5 am the CEO of Organically Grown Company. We

6 are a certified organic distributor

7 headquartered in Eugene, Oregon.

8 So, decisionmaking in our company

9 is guided by our mission, which is promoting

10 health through organic agriculture as a

11 leading sustainable organization. And our

12 four core values; my comments to you this

13 morning are informed by one of our four core

14 values, partnerships.

15 We believe that the success of our

16 business and the organic trade in general

17 hinges on the cultivation of positive, long18 term relationships that are built on trust.

19 American consumers have placed trust in

20 growers, packers, distributors, and retailers

21 to provide them with safe, high-quality

22 produce as well as uphold the integrity of the
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1 organic label.

2 Conversely, growers have placed

3 trust in the government and their trade

4 partners to provide some measure of

5 predictability in the market for their crops.

6 I urge the Crop Committee to adopt

7 the time-limited extension for tetracycline

8 until January 2014 to create a predictable and

9 economically-viable way for the domestic

10 organic pear and apple industry to transition

11 away from antibiotics.

12 In 2010, our company purchased

13 approximately 2.2 million pounds of organic

14 apple varieties that are known to be

15 susceptible to fire blight. That was about 49

16 percent of our organic apple purchases from

17 Washington and Oregon.

18 OGC also purchased about 450,000

19 pounds of organic pear varieties that are

20 known to be susceptible to fire blight, about

21 47 percent of our organic pear purchases from

22 Washington and Oregon growers.
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1 So, collectively, these purchases

2 of susceptible varieties accounted for nearly

3 3 percent of our total fruit and vegetable

4 purchases.

5 According to our apple and pear

6 buyer, the growers of these crops uniformly

7 stated that they would transition to

8 conventional production if tetracycline were

9 disallowed under the NOP in 2012.

10 Another one of our buyers returned

11 last week from New Zealand, where he had

12 learned about a non-pathogenic bacterium

13 product labeled Blossom Bless that is used by

14 apple and pear growers as protection against

15 fire blight infection. The use of this

16 product down under suggested that development

17 of commercially-viable, natural alternatives

18 to antibiotics may be possible.

19 Our company believes that

20 disallowing use of tetracycline after October

21 21st, 2012, in the absence of a commercially22 viable natural alternative would be bad for
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1 the organic trade and bad for our growers.

2 OGC supports the National Organic

3 Coalition's recommendation to allow

4 tetracycline until January 2014, to provide

5 growers time to get up to the learning curve

6 on new protectant products.

7 We also support the NOC's proposal

8 to convene an NOSB Fire Blight Task Force to

9 monitor progress in various alternatives to

10 antibiotics.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

12 MR. HINERFELD: Thank you.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay Feldman?

14 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

15 That is interesting data. Let me

16 make sure I understand what you are saying.

17 Okay. So, 49 percent of the apples you are

18 growing are of resistant or non-resistant

19 varieties? Is that what you are saying?

20 MR. HINERFELD: Yes, let me

21 clarify that data point, yes.

22 MR. FELDMAN: So, that would mean
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1 51 percent are from resistant varieties or no?

2 MR. HINERFELD: Yes, so what we

3 did is we looked at the total apple purchases,

4 organic apple purchases, from Oregon and

5 Washington growers, and I looked at the subset

6 of the varieties that are known to be

7 susceptible to fire blight; namely, Fuji,

8 Gala, Granny Smith, and Pink Lady. And those

9 collectively accounted for 49 percent of our

10 Oregon and Washington organic apple purchases

11 last year. And we did a similar exercise on

12 pears.

13 MR. FELDMAN: So, the other 51

14 percent, presumably, are varieties such as?

15 MR. HINERFELD: Well, the list is

16 long and I can't tell you with great assurance

17 that they are not susceptible to fire blight,

18 but some examples: Jonagold, Braeburn, Cameo,

19 Cripps Pink, Opal, Red Delicious, Empire,

20 Golden Delicious, McIntosh, Ginger Gold, Honey

21 Crisp. The list goes on de nova.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Red Delicious,
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1 nobody is buying those, are they?

2 (Laughter.)

3 MR. HINERFELD: There are not

4 many. We don't sell a lot of Red Delicious.

5 MR. FELDMAN: Okay.

6 MR. HINERFELD: But we have a

7 pretty big list that were not on that short

8 list that we knew as susceptible varieties.

9 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John, and, then,

11 Tina.

12 MR. FOSTER: I just want to point

13 out there is a difference between resistant

14 varieties and less susceptible varieties. And

15 that is pretty critical. I have a feeling it

16 is going to be more critical than it has

17 already. So, when we are using that language,

18 it is going to be real important to be precise

19 with that.

20 MR. HINERFELD: And I am not a

21 scientist. So, I appreciate that, John.

22 Thank you.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina?

2 MS. ELLOR: Were those apples for

3 the fresh market or for processing?

4 MR. HINERFELD: These were for

5 fresh. So, we primarily are a distributor to

6 resell grocers in Oregon and Washington.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

8 MR. HINERFELD: Thank you.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Kathy Pryor

10 is up next. Roxanne Green is standing by.

11 MS. PRYOR: Hi. Thank you for the

12 opportunity to speak with you today.

13 I represent the Washington State

14 Chapter of Physicians for Social

15 Responsibility. However, the information I

16 will be presenting today was actually compiled

17 and published by one of our partner

18 organizations, Healthcare Without Harm.

19 I am here today to speak with you

20 because we oppose the inclusion of any

21 genetically-engineered foods in any phase of

22 the production of certified organic foods.
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1 Genetically-engineered foods have not been

2 adequately accessed for their credible adverse

3 effects on human or animal health or on the

4 environment in which they are a part.

5 Also of concern is the threat

6 posed by genetic engineering to

7 environmentally-sustainable food production

8 and the threat to the economic livelihood of

9 farmers pursuing sustainable production

10 methods.

11 The health community is

12 particularly concerned about three primary

13 human health impacts in the consumption of

14 genetically-engineered foods, and those are:

15 allergies, antibiotic resistance, and

16 toxicity.

17 The first, allergies. Genetic

18 engineering moves proteins novel to the human

19 diet into the food supply. For the majority

20 of genetically-engineered crops, these novel

21 genes have not been fully assessed for

22 allergenicity.
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1 And editorial in The New England

2 Journal of Medicine stated that this is

3 because FDA requirements to not apply to foods

4 that are rarely allergenic or to donor

5 organisms of unknown allergenicity.

6 Secondly, antibiotic resistance,

7 which you can imagine is of particular concern

8 to the health community. Most genetically9 engineered foods in production today carry

10 fully-functioning genes that confer resistance

11 to one or more antibiotics. This raises

12 concerns that genes or other determinants of

13 antibiotic resistance could occur from GE

14 plants to bacteria living in the animal or

15 human gut.

16 And third, toxicity. Genetic

17 engineering can unpredictably increase levels

18 of a naturally-occurring toxin in foods.

19 Unexpected changes in food are common with

20 genetic engineering, and the existing

21 inadequate safety evaluations could miss

22 potentially-toxic changes.
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1 Finally, we oppose the use of

2 genetically-engineered foods due to the

3 following threats to public health and the

4 environment: increased herbicide use, threats

5 to non-target species and soil ecology, and

6 threats to organic farming.

7 Although industry groups claim GE

8 crops reduce pesticide use, closer examination

9 reveals a dramatic increase in the amount of

10 pesticides used since the adoption of GE

11 crops, often used to combat herbicide12 resistant weeds. This increase in herbicide

13 use adds toxic chemicals to our air, water,

14 and soil and is known to be harmful to the

15 health of farm workers and farm communities.

16 We are concerned about threats to

17 non-target species because lab studies and

18 field trials have shown that GE crops could

19 harm butterflies and other insects as well as

20 wildlife and soil ecology.

21 And finally, we are concerned

22 about threats to the future of organic farming
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1 due to increased weed resistance, increased

2 insect resistance, and we feel it is unfair to

3 burden farmers using sustainable practices

4 with these unpredictable factors.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

6 MS. PRYOR: If I can just wrap up,

7 I will say that, because GE foods are not

8 labeled in the United States, USDA

9 certification, organic certification has been

10 the only standard by which American consumers

11 are able to avoid GE foods.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

13 MS. PRYOR: Please do not weaken

14 the organic standards resistance to these --

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions?

16 Jay?

17 MS. PRYOR: Thank you.

18 MR. FELDMAN: I have a question

19 for you. Would it be appropriate to put

20 resistance in a more general context or?

21 MS. PRYOR: What was that?

22 MR. FELDMAN: In a more general
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1 context about antibiotic resistance?

2 MS. PRYOR: Absolutely.

3 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. I wanted to

4 know, from a public health perspective, if you

5 could just talk briefly about the issues

6 around antibiotic resistance and the various

7 contributing factors. I mean we heard, we

8 have gotten some data here that we are

9 deliberating on that speaks to the issue of

10 lateral transfer of resistant genes and the

11 contribution that we might be making to the

12 problem of resistance to antibiotics by

13 utilizing antibiotics in crop reduction, in

14 organic crop reduction.

15 Can you enlighten us any further

16 on that?

17 MS. PRYOR: I would say, let's

18 see, I am just going to pull from the report

19 that was done here. They are saying that

20 concerns have been raised. It is actually

21 about people who would be consuming the GE

22 foods while taking prescribed antibiotics.
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1 They are saying that it would weaken the

2 therapeutic effect of the prescribed

3 antibiotics.

4 Does that answer your question?

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

6 MS. PRYOR: Thank you.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Next up is Roxanne

8 Green. Leslie Zuck is standing by.

9 MS. GREEN: Hello. I am Roxanne

10 Green. I am a long-time employee at PCC

11 Natural Markets. Those of you that know

12 Goldie, I have been there as long as she has,

13 a long time.

14 But I am talking today as an

15 organics consumer because I am one of those

16 allergy people, and we were talking about

17 allergies a minute ago, and organics really

18 makes a difference in my quality of life. So,

19 I am here today just talking about organics

20 consumers and about animal welfare.

21 So, organic food is now a

22 mainstream item that can be found in most any
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1 supermarket in the country. It is time for us

2 to ask ourselves what we want this word to

3 mean. Without a solid base to stand on, the

4 word is virtually meaningless.

5 As consumers who want to make

6 ethical choices in our purchases, we are

7 willing to pay premium prices. However, we

8 have expectation that our dollars will be

9 supporting farmers who are adhering to a

10 higher standard than the industry average.

11 Along with the regular

12 requirements of organic certification, organic

13 feeds, prohibition of using hormones,

14 antibiotics, or genetically-modified

15 organisms, we expect that organic livestock be

16 raised in a healthy, humane environment.

17 To produce animal products with

18 integrity, the animals should be raised in an

19 environment that allows them to engage in

20 their natural behaviors, move about freely,

21 and be subjected to stressful situations as

22 rarely as possible.
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1 The current NOSB Livestock

2 Committee proposal for organic pork or chicken

3 does not even come close to the standards of

4 industrial-scale producers and falls far below

5 the European Union organic standards.

6 As informed consumers, we are

7 already growing increasingly suspicious of

8 label claims that do not meet our

9 expectations. Consider the recent rash of

10 Heart Healthy labeling claims that were

11 required to be removed from product packaging.

12 Humanely-raised, local, natural, free range,

13 and cage-free don't mean what we have been led

14 to believe they do.

15 What we want is transparency,

16 integrity, ethics, and honesty. Please give

17 us some standards that we can believe in.

18 Just don't pay lip service to organic

19 standards. Make them mean something.

20 We deserve to have access to at

21 least the same quality organics that are

22 available in other countries, if not better.
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1 If we hope to ever have a clean, healthy food

2 supply produced in a respectful way, it needs

3 to start here, and it needs to start now.

4 Thank you.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions for

6 Ms. Green?

7 (No response.)

8 Thank you.

9 MS. GREEN: Thank you for your

10 time.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Leslie Zuck is up

12 next. Dave Carter is standing by.

13 MS. ZUCK: Hi. I am Leslie Zuck.

14 It looks like I am here to make general

15 comments. I will see if I can do that.

16 I am the Executive Director of

17 Pennsylvania Certified Organic. I am also a

18 certified organic farmer, which I might not be

19 much longer if I don't get my renewal

20 application in by the end of tomorrow.

21 (Laughter.)

22 It may surprise you to know that
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1 Pennsylvania ranks third in total organic

2 production at the farmgate, after California

3 and Washington State.

4 As I listened to your discussion

5 yesterday, I was again reminded of how hard

6 your job is. You all do your homework. You

7 work really hard. You want to do the right

8 thing, and you try to make the right decision.

9 Then, someone stands up here and says you've

10 got it all wrong.

11 I am not going to do that because

12 I really do appreciate all of your well13 presented and differing opinions and

14 perspectives. The problem is that you have to

15 all come together and make that decision, and

16 that is really the hard part.

17 And I don't know if this will help

18 in your deliberations, but I don't think it is

19 completely necessary to re-review every

20 material during the Sunset process with the

21 same scrutiny that you do if the material were

22 being petitioned for the first time. That has
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1 already been done, as you know, five or ten

2 years ago, and even longer in some cases.

3 Organic producers have developed

4 organic system plans that rely on certain

5 management techniques and materials which are

6 allowed under the current organic rules, which

7 may not be perfect, but they are the here and

8 now. And when those farmers learn that

9 certain materials are subject to being re10 reviewed and might disappear on a five-year

11 interval, it kind of makes them want to run

12 for the hills.

13 Obviously, if there is a

14 compelling reason, based on new evidence not

15 known at the time that the material was

16 originally petitioned, producers will

17 understand that, and they will probably agree

18 with you.

19 An organic livestock producer who

20 in a very rare situation might resort to using

21 a prohibited antibiotic to save the life of an

22 animal can sell that animal on the
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1 conventional market and buy a new organic

2 animal the very next day. And this is a rare

3 situation that that happens anyway. The

4 farmer would not have to take their entire

5 herd out of organic production.

6 An apple producer who, again, in a

7 rare situation resorts to antibiotics to save

8 the life of a block of trees doesn't have the

9 option to replace those trees with new organic

10 trees the very next day. If the material used

11 turns out to be prohibited, the producer would

12 very likely have to take the entire acreage

13 out of organic production, not just the trees

14 actually treated.

15 We have been able to see an

16 increase in the production of organic tree

17 fruit in Pennsylvania and New York with the

18 help of Penn State and Cornell. It has become

19 a viable means for commercial-scale, family20 owned orchards to remain in agriculture at a

21 time when conventional tree fruit production

22 in our area has taken a big hit due to mainly
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1 to competition from the Pacific Northwest

2 apples.

3 (Laughter.)

4 Most apples are grown for

5 processing, and the organic applesauce and

6 apple juice processor plants in Pennsylvania

7 have had to source organic apples from

8 Washington State. We would like to see the

9 trend of organic apples in our area be able to

10 continue, and I personally have an interest in

11 eating them.

12 Thanks for that, and those were my

13 comments as a farmer and a consumer.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Leslie.

15 Jay?

16 MS. ZUCK: Why did I think you

17 were going to ask me a question?

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. FELDMAN: So, you are telling

20 me I don't really need to think that much

21 about sodium nitrate. That is really good

22 news.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 Do you use sodium nitrate?

3 MS. ZUCK: As a farmer, no, I do

4 not.

5 MR. FELDMAN: Do you find that

6 many in Pennsylvania are using it?

7 MS. ZUCK: Yes, we usually find it

8 in blended fertilizers that come in a bag,

9 small farmers, vegetable producers. It is an

10 ingredient in that product.

11 So, it is a little complicated

12 because we have to figure out not only what

13 percentage it is in the product, but also what

14 other nitrogen sources are in there. And we

15 get a lot of help from the manufacturers to

16 figure all that out, and we do verify that.

17 So, there are a lot of those out there.

18 MR. FELDMAN: So, what impact

19 would it have on Pennsylvania organic

20 agriculture?

21 MS. ZUCK: The loss of sodium

22 nitrate?
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1 MR. FELDMAN: The loss of it.

2 MS. ZUCK: I don't know enough

3 about it to know what they would replace it

4 with, but I do know that it would mean that

5 there are a lot of products on our list right

6 now that farmers just automatically know are

7 allowed, and they could end up making

8 mistakes. We would have to go through and

9 review hundreds of products and making sure

10 that they don't have that in them at all,

11 because a lot of times it is just a really

12 small amount. It is not 20 percent of the

13 nitrogen source in that bag. It is just a

14 little boost, because I think it is expensive.

15 So, that's why.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

17 MR. MARAVELL: Leslie, what would

18 be the impact of not having tetracycline and

19 steptomycin for the Pennsylvania fruit

20 growers?

21 MS. ZUCK: Well, Kyla made some

22 comments about that yesterday. We did survey
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1 our producers to see who was using it, what

2 they thought about it.

3 And most of them said, well, they

4 hardly ever use it, but if they didn't know

5 that they could when they needed to, they

6 wouldn't really be wanting to stay in organic

7 production because that is really scary. They

8 have contracts they have to meet. You know,

9 they contract with someone that they are going

10 to sell their organic apples to. You know, it

11 kind of has them shaking in their boots a

12 little bit, I would think.

13 And they are small producers.

14 They are not the pictures you saw the other

15 day with these really giant, large farms. We

16 wouldn't see that in Pennsylvania because it

17 would be a big hill, for one thing.

18 (Laughter.)

19 Thank you for those questions.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thanks, Leslie.

21 Ann Schwartz -- oh, yes, here he

22 is. Thanks, Dave. Ann Schwartz is standing
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1 by.

2 MR. CARTER: Good morning.

3 Dave Carter, National Bison

4 Association, an NOSB refugee, itinerant

5 consultant, here today representing the

6 Organic Pet Food Manufacturers, working

7 through the Pet Food Institute.

8 We came and testified a year ago

9 to complain that nothing was being done to

10 develop the regulations for pet food pursuant

11 to the action that was taken by the NOSB in

12 2008. So, having done that, I now am

13 compelled to come here and thank the NOP for

14 starting to work on developing the

15 regulations.

16 The process has begun. Miles and

17 his crew are doing work, and we are very

18 pleased and looking forward to seeing some

19 work, hopefully, later this year.

20 Having said that, I do want to

21 weigh in. We do have, excuse the pun, a dog

22 in the fight in the issue of the nutrients.
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1 What I would do, first of all, is

2 admonish you or ask you that in this

3 discussion that we eliminate the term

4 "accessory" when talking about that. There

5 are some nutrients that are accessory; there

6 are many that are necessary, and we need to

7 distinguish that.

8 This is particularly true in the

9 field of pet food. The recommendation that

10 you developed in 2008 had an appendix with 12

11 different nutrients that would have to be

12 petitioned for organic pet food.

13 And for us, this isn't a game of

14 horseshoes. We don't get points for getting

15 close. If any one of those nutrients is

16 missing from a product, we lose the ability to

17 label a product as a complete and balanced

18 diet.

19 And so, you have, then, the

20 customer that will be going in and picking up

21 rendered stuff that is labeled as complete and

22 balanced nutrition or an organic product that
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1 has to be labeled for intermittent and

2 supplemental feeding only.

3 So, that is why we support the

4 idea of, to the extent that a category of

5 nutrients can be backed by regulatory or

6 statutory reference, in our case, the NRC and

7 AFCO would both suffice, that we feel that

8 there is justification, then, to address those

9 as a category.

10 That being said, I want to welcome

11 the new NOSB members. This is the most

12 enjoyable experience that you will ever endure

13 painfully for the next five years.

14 And I know my time is running out,

15 but I would have some advice for you, if you

16 would care to ask a question.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay?

18 MR. FELDMAN: I don't want any

19 advice, but --

20 (Laughter.)

21 I do want some advice on this

22 issue of having been, sitting around this
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1 table, a former Board member especially. We

2 are being asked to approve a category --

3 MR. CARTER: Right.

4 MR. FELDMAN: -- say, nutrients.

5 You are calling it nutrients. And I

6 appreciate that. I understand that.

7 But getting down to a more

8 specific level, how do we differentiate, what

9 is the best way for us to effectively

10 differentiate between a synthetic form of an

11 individual compound or substance in that

12 category and the synthetic form?

13 I mean, do we just assume that if

14 a commercially-available form of that

15 particular nutrient becomes available, then we

16 review a petition? Or can we somehow do that

17 at the front end in a more effective way?

18 MR. CARTER: Well, I think in the

19 front end, you know, you will be looking at

20 all of the nutrients that are part of that

21 required category. In our case, it is things

22 like lycine, taurine, you know, the like.
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1 As some things come available,

2 yes, they could be petitioned individually.

3 But, you know, essentially, you have got this

4 in place right now in terms of vitamins and

5 minerals. And particularly in livestock feed,

6 you have the categories of vitamins and

7 minerals that were reviewed back in 1995 and

8 brought in as a category. This is the same

9 approach that we would ask to be taken for the

10 other nutrients.

11 MR. FELDMAN: And a followup. I

12 am asking, though, was that adequate? Was

13 bringing that category in sufficiently

14 reviewed? Was that category sufficiently

15 reviewed to determine whether there was a non16 synthetic form of any individual nutrient or

17 vitamin in that category? I am just not

18 familiar with the history on that.

19 MR. CARTER: Yes, and I wasn't

20 there in 1995, either. So, we would have to

21 defer. But, you know, my standpoint is at

22 least from the terms from the livestock world,
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1 and dealing with the feed that is there, I

2 mean I think there is satisfaction that the

3 vitamins, trace vitamins, trace minerals, as

4 allowed by FDA, is sufficient.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I have a

6 clarification for my colleague Jay and, then,

7 a question for the program.

8 Our Handling Committee brought

9 forward the work of the Pet Food Task Force a

10 couple of years ago. And we learned that

11 taurine is only available in nature in raw

12 heart muscle. So, it is also required in all

13 dog and cat food to be called a complete and

14 balanced diet. So, in other words, a

15 synthetic is really the only way for that

16 organic category to exist.

17 So, my question is now for the

18 program, now that you are developing pet food

19 regulations, it sounds like, organic pet food

20 regulations, would essential vitamins and

21 minerals or essential nutrients, I should say,

22 required for pets need to be petitioned
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1 individually?

2 We have in our Handling Committee

3 a petition for taurine right now. Will that

4 become a moot point, based on what the NOP is

5 working on?

6 MS. BAILEY: Sorry, Tracy, can you

7 just repeat the question? We were conferring.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure. Sure. No

9 problem.

10 When the NOP develops organic pet

11 food regulations, will you have essential

12 nutrients for dogs and cats included? Or will

13 they still need to be petitioned to become

14 part of that reg?

15 MS. BAILEY: Melissa Bailey for

16 NOP.

17 Yes, as Dave mentioned, we are

18 currently working on the draft proposed rule

19 for pet food standards. One of the things

20 under consideration is a regulatory reference

21 to include those essential nutrients and

22 vitamins as required for pet food.
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1 So, if there's more clarification,

2 I guess, needed on that, we can provide that,

3 but that is what we are looking at right now.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: The reason I am

5 asking it at this meeting is our Handling

6 Committee is about to embark on the work of

7 reviewing the taurine petition. I would just

8 urge that work not to be pointless. If you

9 are going to have that already being listed,

10 let's not spin our wheels on that petition for

11 the next six months.

12 MR. CARTER: And as the writer of

13 that petition, I would concur. I mean, if

14 there is an approach that will allow for a

15 review of these as a category, I would support

16 that.

17 MS. BAILEY: Yes, the regulatory

18 reference, my understanding is that it only

19 covers vitamins and minerals, and that taurine

20 would be an amino acid that would not

21 necessarily be covered by that regulatory

22 reference.
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1 But I agree with you that

2 certainly makes sense from a process

3 perspective, and we can work with the Board to

4 provide that. So, you're not doing work that

5 is not really necessary.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

7 MR. CARTER: Yes, if we can't look

8 at them as a category, I mean we are looking

9 at a minimum of 12 separate petitions to come

10 before this Board. And all of them have to be

11 approved. Like I say, it is not horseshoes.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

13 Anne Schwartz is up. Sam Carruth

14 is standing by.

15 MS. SCHWARTZ: Good morning.

16 You didn't quite get my subject

17 matter on, but I am providing two pieces of

18 testimony, one for me and from another farmer

19 in eastern Washington. That other farmer does

20 refer to that.

21 Thank you for your service. I

22 have been involved in the world of organic
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1 agriculture for over 30 years. I farm about

2 100 miles from here in eastern Skagit County.

3 I have been a certified organic farmer since

4 1980, originally certified by Tilth Producers,

5 and, then, the Washington State Department of

6 Ag, starting in 1989.

7 I served on the Board of Directors

8 for Tilth Producers for over 30 years. We

9 represent nearly 600 organic farmers,

10 businesses, and research faculty working to

11 increase organic agriculture in Washington.

12 Tilth Producers strongly supports

13 increased outdoor space requirements for

14 poultry, hogs, and all ruminant classes of

15 livestock. Sheep and goats should have

16 similar scale-appropriate requirements as

17 defined for cattle. 

18 Poultry and hogs should be turned

19 out to living, growing pasture during the

20 growing season that provides some significant

21 nutritional fulfillment of the animals' daily

22 rations.
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1 The European standard provides the

2 model and creates the opportunity for the

3 benefits of such exposure to accrue, including

4 self-selection of insects and plants to eat,

5 exertion and exercise that will reduce

6 metabolic, reproductive, and musculoskeletal

7 diseases, and the opportunities for animals to

8 seek space from or companionship of other

9 animals.

10 Organic livestock systems must be

11 based -- one minute left, really?

12 Anyway, I really agree with

13 looking at Canadian and European standards for

14 livestock. If growers that really disagree

15 with the standard have a problem, then, they

16 can label their products as fed with

17 organically-raised feed, but raised under

18 confinement operations.

19 Tilth Producers members are also

20 strongly in support of continued availability

21 to use antibiotics, namely, streptomycin and

22 oxytetracycline, as recommended by various
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1 regional management strategies to control fire

2 blight in apples and pears.

3 I have submitted my comments, and

4 I will just say that, as a 30-year veteran of

5 organic farming, the margins for farmers to

6 stay in business are extremely tight. Many of

7 the farmers that we are hearing from, the

8 threat of loss of their tree fruit in an

9 incredibly competitive arena -- the

10 Pennsylvania growers recognize that it is hard

11 to compete with Washington tree fruit

12 producers. Washington tree fruit producers

13 have a hard time competing with the scale of

14 tree fruit production here in Washington

15 State.

16 And I guess I am just going to

17 urge that you all recognize that the dedicated

18 farmers that are out there are not getting

19 rich doing this. The costs of production make

20 this very difficult.

21 I will take any questions.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Go ahead, Katrina.
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1 MS. HEINZE: We ran out of copies

2 of Mr. McMillan's written for these two folks.

3 MS. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

4 MS. HEINZE: If you could get

5 them?

6 MS. SCHWARTZ: I can do that. You

7 bet.

8 MS. HEINZE: Thank you.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Will you please

10 state your position, then, on streptomycin and

11 tetracycline?

12 MS. SCHWARTZ: We are in favor of

13 a continuation of the Sunset clause while

14 biological alternatives are explored and

15 researched.

16 And another point I really wanted

17 to make was that we believe that the NOP and

18 NOSB should have some agreement with USDA that

19 links the identified research priorities to

20 the research community, so there is a flow of

21 identified priorities that goes to the

22 research community that really guides their
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1 selection process of research.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay Feldman?

3 MR. FELDMAN: Anne, I don't think

4 you mentioned in your written statement

5 anything about sodium nitrate. Do you use

6 sodium nitrate?

7 MS. SCHWARTZ: I have never used

8 sodium nitrate. I think for most producers in

9 Washington alternative protein nitrogen

10 sources are generally available. And that is

11 even dealing with very cold soils and lots of

12 rain.

13 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina?

15 MS. HEINZE: We found the two

16 copies.

17 MS. SCHWARTZ: Oh, great.

18 Thank you for your service. We

19 really appreciate you being here.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: You're welcome.

21 Sam Carruth, you are at the

22 podium. David Lively, you are standing by.
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1 MR. CARRUTH: Good morning.

2 My name is Sam Carruth,

3 representing SQM, the producer of natural

4 Chilean nitrate.

5 It was mentioned yesterday that a

6 reason to consider removing the annotation was

7 because natural Chilean nitrate was originally

8 put on the prohibited list 15 years ago. It

9 is our understanding that this grew out of a

10 concern from the certifiers over solubility of

11 nitrates.

12 To address the concern, initially,

13 the use was limited to 20 percent. The only

14 way to limit the use of a natural product in

15 the system of rules is to put it on the

16 prohibited list and add an annotation.

17 We would like to point out that

18 the solubility and leaching of nitrates is a

19 concern, no matter what the source of

20 nitrogen. All forms of nitrogen are

21 eventually converted into nitrate.

22 The key to address this is to
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1 manage nitrogen availability carefully and

2 synchronize it as best as possible with crop

3 needs. When it comes to impact on soil life,

4 ample research has shown earthworm populations

5 depend on interactions between several

6 factors. Negative influence on earthworm

7 populations is largely the effect of tractor

8 traffic, soil acidity, and low soil organic

9 matter content.

10 Natural Chilean nitrate is not

11 acidifying and, on the contrary,

12 transformation of organic, ureic, and ammoniac

13 sources of nitrogen into nitrate, whether

14 synthetic or natural, does have an acidifying

15 effect.

16 Natural Chilean nitrate also

17 increases yield that, in turn, leaves more

18 crop residues on the field, increasing soil

19 organic material, which encourages earthworms.

20 Regarding new information since

21 the last Sunset review, the Crops Committee

22 speaks of availability of new, alternative,
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1 rapid shots of nitrogen in the form of liquid

2 fish or soy products. These are not

3 equivalent alternatives as they contain little

4 or no nitrate, consisting mostly of nitrogen

5 as a component of proteins and amino acids.

6 As such, they still need conversion into

7 nitrate mineralization and are not as quick8 acting.

9 In a soil that is below 60 degrees

10 Fahrenheit, the mineralization is extremely

11 slow and basically stops below 50 degrees

12 Fahrenheit. Nitrogen in its organic carbon

13 form is not available for plant uptake. This

14 is when farmers use natural nitrate for

15 available nitrogen in cold soils.

16 Specific to liquid hydrolized fish

17 fertilizers, please note that they also often

18 contain natural Chilean nitrate as an added

19 ingredient in order to give a rapid shot of

20 nitrogen and to overcome the lack of available

21 nitrogen during cold temperatures. This is

22 the only way that an alternative liquid fish
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1 product could be an equivalent to natural

2 nitrate. And I hope that is clear.

3 So, liquid fish or soy-based

4 protein nitrogen products are not affected

5 during cool soil temperatures. If growers

6 cannot use natural Chilean nitrate, U.S.

7 production of organic cool season vegetables

8 will decrease dramatically in both quantity

9 and quality, and foreign imports from more

10 favorable climates will inevitably take over

11 to fill the void.

12 Once again, natural Chilean

13 nitrate provides the farmer more control of

14 what he is applying to the field, preventing

15 excess application of other nitrogen sources

16 that may have nutrient imbalances.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

18 MR. CARRUTH: Thank you.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions?

20 Steve?

21 MR. DeMURI: Are you the only

22 producer of Chilean nitrate?
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1 MR. CARRUTH: No. There is

2 another producer in Chile that produces it.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay, and, then,

4 Nick.

5 MR. FELDMAN: Do you have any

6 studies that look at the need for this boost

7 of nitrogen relative to the percentage of

8 organic matter in the soil?

9 MR. CARRUTH: The boost of nitrate

10 nitrogen? I am sure there are several studies

11 out there regarding availability of nitrogen.

12 I can certainly dig some up and have them

13 sent.

14 MR. FELDMAN: I am wondering if

15 there is a relationship there with higher

16 organic matter. Would you see less, you know,

17 the induction of the Chilean nitrate? Or are

18 you seeing no variability there?

19 MR. CARRUTH: Not off the top of

20 my head, I don't have a study that relates

21 organic matter to nitrate.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?
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1 MR. CARRUTH: But, again, all

2 nitrogen is eventually converted into nitrate

3 in time.

4 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, I was just

5 wondering if you have any information what

6 would be the impact of lowering the 20 percent

7 to, let's say, 10 percent or raising it to 30

8 percent? I am just trying to get an idea. I

9 don't know how the 20 percent came around.

10 This is a product you deal with all the time.

11 Let me know.

12 MR. CARRUTH: The 20 percent, from

13 our understanding, was when it was initially

14 listed, and the concern was over the

15 solubility of nitrates leaching. From my

16 understanding talking to farmers, they

17 seldomly ever get up to the 20 percent. So,

18 decreasing down to 10 percent I still think

19 would be a very valuable method, and in terms

20 of getting that quick nitrate, because the

21 majority of the product is, as mentioned

22 earlier, blended with other sources of
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1 nitrogen, whether it be liquid or dry.

2 And going to 30 percent, it is

3 hard to quantify the difference of 10 to 20 to

4 30 percent, but we do feel that is a good

5 restriction in there, allowing it just to be

6 a supplemental tool to complement standard

7 organic breakdown, nitrogen mineralization

8 processes.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I have a question

10 for the National Organic Program. This 10

11 percent allowance that the gentleman is

12 proposing, does that help with harmonization

13 issues or international trade and organic

14 issues? Or is it a zero tolerance that that

15 program was looking for?

16 MR. McEVOY: What we identified is

17 that it is a clear difference between the U.S.

18 organic standards and other organic standards

19 around the world. The U.S. is the only

20 country that allows sodium nitrate under their

21 organic standards.

22 So, it doesn't really matter what
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1 level of allowance in terms of these trade

2 agreements or getting your products into

3 foreign countries. Any grower that is

4 producing crops for export to a foreign

5 organic standard cannot be utilizing sodium

6 nitrate in their production. So, 10 percent

7 wouldn't make any difference.

8 MR. CARRUTH: And again, that is a

9 decision that should be left to the farmer.

10 If he wants to export, then he wouldn't use

11 it. If he wants to serve his local community,

12 he shouldn't have that tool taken away from

13 his arsenal.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

15 questions?

16 (No response.)

17 Thank you.

18 MR. CARRUTH: Thank you.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: David Lively is

20 up. Jake Lewin is standing by.

21 MR. LIVELY: Good morning.

22 My name is David Lively, and I am
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1 the Vice President of Sales and Marketing of

2 Organically Grown Company, a certified organic

3 produce distribution company headquartered in

4 Eugene, Oregon.

5 In my comments today, I would like

6 to respond to the Crop Committee's proposals

7 on two topics, ethylene and pheromones.

8 Ethylene. OGC sources organic

9 pineapples from Costa Rica, the United States,

10 and Mexico. Last year we handled 15,433 cases

11 of the fruit.

12 OGC respectfully disagrees with

13 the Crops Committee's recommendation to

14 prohibit ethylene gas for regulation of

15 pineapple flowering. We contacted the

16 producers of the pineapples that we buy and

17 found that every one of them not only uses

18 ethylene, they consider the material essential

19 to their operation.

20 Because pineapple flowering is

21 commonly delayed or occurs unevenly throughout

22 a field, growers rely on ethylene to manage
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1 the timing of the plant's flowering and,

2 therefore, the timing of harvest. Growers

3 report to OGC that the impact of ethylene is

4 not only beneficial at harvest, it also

5 facilitates efficient cultivation, management

6 of the growing plants, and helps avoid

7 overproduction in the peak periods.

8 OGC concurs with the information

9 presented in the Supplementary Technical

10 Report commissioned for this meeting.

11 Specifically, we urge the Board to consider

12 two points from this report.

13 One, that there has been no new

14 alternatives to the use of ethylene gas

15 identified since the material was first

16 reviewed, and, two, that there are methods of

17 applying ethylene that are both affordable and

18 practical for use by both large and small

19 growers.

20 OGC urges the NOSB to continue

21 listing ethylene gas for regulation of

22 pineapple flowering.
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1 Pheromones. The Crops Committee

2 recommends that the NOSB continue listing of

3 pheromones, but with an annotation that would

4 restrict their use to, quote, "passive

5 dispensers without added toxicants and with

6 only approved inert ingredients".

7 OGC agrees with the Crops

8 Committee's statement that pheromones, quote,

9 "have become essential to organic fruit

10 growing". We consider pheromones to be a good

11 fit for organic fruit production because, in

12 general, they are low in toxicity and

13 eliminate the use of much more toxic products.

14 OGC moves many tons of tree fruit

15 throughout the marketplace each year. When we

16 contacted the growers of this fruit about the

17 Committee's recommendation, they told us that

18 the impact of prohibition of pheromones as

19 mating disrupters would have grave impacts on

20 their operations. One grower noted,

21 "Pheromones are our first defense for worms.

22 Without this tool, organic fruit growing would
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1 most likely be impossible. One fertilized

2 female can lay down 100 or more eggs. At this

3 time, there is no viable alternative to

4 pheromones to organic."

5 Another grower stated, "There is

6 no way to continue organic tree farming

7 without pheromones. The only alternative

8 would be to spray Spinosad two to three times

9 and alternate with horticultural oils.

10 Burning copious amounts of fossil fuel and

11 alternately applying three expensive spray

12 items eight times is worse than dumb.

13 Pheromone ties allow growers time out from

14 using their sprayers."

15 We agree with the Crops Committee

16 that the issue of inert ingredients in

17 pesticides is very important to address.

18 However, we urge the Board to address this

19 topic in a broader way before changing the

20 current regulations related to the types of

21 inert materials in pheromone products.

22 We ask the Board to relist
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1 pheromones without the portion of the proposed

2 annotation that refers to passive dispensers.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, David.

4 MR. LIVELY: Yes.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac?

6 MR. STONE: Would you elaborate a

7 little more on the cost associated with not

8 applying the ethylene, whether it is trips

9 through the field, application of other pest

10 controls, or aspects of it, not just

11 efficiency of harvest?

12 MR. LIVELY: I can refer to that a

13 little, but I am certainly not an expert on

14 it. But the materials that I have read and

15 the growers we talked to, in both of these

16 cases, basically, you are moving from what I

17 would call a rifle shot to a shotgun in that

18 it greatly increases the number of passes.

19 What I have been told in the case

20 of ethylene, cold water, ice water is the best

21 product, and it is a staggering quantity that

22 would have to be applied to the field, and the
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1 number of passes is tremendous.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina?

3 MS. ELLOR: Not being very

4 familiar with pheromone use, in a practical

5 sense, what other kinds of dispensers are used

6 besides ties?

7 MR. LIVELY: Well, one I guess

8 that would be allowed -- and a lot of this is

9 growers' perceptions. One thing that I have

10 learned is that the growers are getting

11 information regarding this that is a little

12 different than what is actually happening.

13 But, you know, basically, there is

14 a pheromone monitoring trap which would be

15 allowed. You know, it does not dispense

16 throughout the orchard. But they regard those

17 not as a control mechanism, but simply as a

18 monitoring mechanism. And I am not sure what

19 other means they would have.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay?

21 MS. ELLOR: So, what would the

22 example of a non-passive dispenser, for
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1 example?

2 MR. LIVELY: To a question like

3 that, if you would forward that to Zea

4 Sonnabend, when she speaks on this topic a

5 little later, that would be great.

6 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, our intent was

7 not to -- I'm sorry -- our intent was not to

8 take away the mating disruption tool, which we

9 understood to be in the form of passive

10 dispensers. So, I am glad -- we will talk to

11 Zea when she comes up.

12 MR. LIVELY: Yes.

13 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: David, would you

15 mind reading the full annotation alternate

16 that you were proposing? I think you got

17 through about half of it.

18 MR. LIVELY: No, I was complete.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That was it?

20 Okay.

21 John? John and, then, Nick.

22 MR. FOSTER: Do you have an
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1 approximation of how many acres of pineapples

2 feed your supply chain, and just a ball park?

3 And, then, you mentioned, you said

4 growers. So, I am assuming more than one.

5 MR. LIVELY: Yes.

6 MR. FOSTER: About how many growers

7 are you pulling from, give or take?

8 MR. LIVELY: Well, I would have to

9 get you that information, which I could do

10 easily enough. I don't know the acreage, and

11 I don't know that anyone has ever studied the

12 acreage.

13 And until this, you know, there

14 are certain growers we work very directly with

15 and then there are others we move through

16 brokers primarily, which has been the case in

17 a lot of what we bring in from out of the

18 country, where there are people, companies

19 that we work with, who are really intimately

20 involved with those growers. And usually, we

21 uptake information out of those guys.

22 But I know that we contacted
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1 several organizations in Costa Rica and in

2 South America. I read Dole's testimony, but

3 we also contacted some of the growers down

4 there that are fairly small-scale and are

5 doing fair trade. And they were able to just

6 quantify literally to the number of families

7 that were going to be impacted, the number of

8 people in those families, employees, and stuff

9 like that.

10 So, I can get you any of that

11 information you would like. And in fact, one

12 of the reasons we are here today, and one of

13 our goals, is to establish a long-term

14 relationship between this body, the organic

15 distributors in the United States, of which

16 there's about 10 -- we operate as a group

17 called the Organic Produce Wholesalers'

18 Coalition -- and growers, to where we can

19 become more active in things such as when we

20 talk about the antibiotics in apples, we have

21 the power -- as I understand one of the issues

22 on that case is that these growers have
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1 actually been moving into varieties that are

2 creating a problem, Pink Lady, for instance.

3 You know, the ones that Josh mentioned

4 earlier, relatively new varieties on the

5 market. They have a lot of impact and volume.

6 And we are in a position where we

7 understand where you are going long-term to

8 actually work with those growers. And you are

9 walking into a boxed canyon, and you are not

10 going to be able to get out of it. So, that

11 is a lot of what we want to be able to do, is

12 participate in that dialog with them and bring

13 the monetary aspect to the market which they

14 understand well.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick? Then, we

16 will wrap it up.

17 MR. MARAVELL: You mentioned that

18 there were no known alternatives to the use of

19 ethylene gas for controlling flowering since

20 this was put into the rule originally. I was

21 wondering if you could elaborate just a little

22 bit on how you determine that, particularly
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1 for the farm producers. You know, what

2 information do you have that shows that there

3 is no alternatives?

4 MR. LIVELY: In our case, we

5 relied upon the growers who we believe are on

6 the ground and trustworthy to tell us what

7 their capacities are and aren't.

8 MR. MARAVELL: And these were from

9 both U.S. and foreign sources?

10 MR. LIVELY: Yes. Costa Rican

11 primarily.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

13 MR. LIVELY: Okay.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jake Lewin is up

15 next. Joseph Ward is standing by.

16 MR. LEWIN: Hi, everyone.

17 Thank you for this opportunity to

18 address the Board and for all of your

19 dedication.

20 My name is Jake Lewin. I am the

21 Chief Certification Officer for CCOF

22 Certification Services. CCOF is one of the
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1 oldest and largest organic certifiers in the

2 U.S. We certify about 2400 operations of all

3 types and perform about 3,000 inspections

4 annually.

5 The material reviewed, discussion

6 paper is complicated. It is important, but it

7 is a subject I can't really address here.

8 We have submitted detailed

9 comments that cover our thoughts and ideas for

10 required best practices in this area, and I am

11 now asking the Board to form an industry

12 working group to address this over time or to

13 work very closely with the commenters as you

14 deliberate.

15 Meanwhile, we do believe the NOP

16 can audit material review organizations within

17 the accreditation process of existing

18 certifiers.

19 All right, new subject,

20 unannounced inspections. I am here to ask the

21 CACC to address this item that was on their

22 work plan previously.
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1 Specifically, CCOF is asking the

2 CACC to recommend a minimum unannounced

3 inspection requirement for all certifiers.

4 NOP could, then, enforce this in the

5 accreditation process through rulemaking,

6 guidance, or some other directive mechanism to

7 certifiers.

8 CCOF's unannounced inspections are

9 particularly valuable to the certification

10 process. Further, as our community grows,

11 this underused practice is increasingly

12 important.

13 CCOF performs unannounced

14 inspections representing about 5 percent of

15 CCOF's certified operations each year. That

16 is about 100 inspections, about 115 a year.

17 Other organic standards or

18 accreditation models have enforceable minimum

19 requirements for unannounced inspections.

20 CCOF, the Accredited Certifiers' Association,

21 and other certifiers also have a wealth of

22 tools to support broad implementation by a
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1 variety of certifiers.

2 Due to administration concerns,

3 cost constraints, and inertia, consistent

4 application by certifiers is unlikely with an

5 enforceable federal-level imperative.

6 Therefore, I am respectfully asking the CACC

7 to pick up this languishing item, address it,

8 and establish a required minimum number of

9 unannounced inspections annually.

10 This is really an important

11 opportunity in front of you to improve the

12 certification process for years to come. I

13 would also note that an unannounced inspection

14 requirement overlap quite well with the

15 residue-testing requirement that we have

16 learned about today. I think those two, they

17 can work together pretty well.

18 So, thank you for your

19 consideration.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

21 Steve and, then, Barry and, then,

22 John.
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1 MR. DeMURI: Isn't there already a

2 requirement for unannounced inspections in the

3 regulations?

4 MR. LEWIN: There is the right to

5 perform them, but no mandate to do so.

6 MR. DeMURI: Okay.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Barry?

8 MR. FLAMM: Jake, who pays for

9 those unannounced inspections in California?

10 MR. LEWIN: Unannounced

11 inspections, by and large, are paid for by the

12 certifier, which ultimately means that they

13 are paid for by the clients. Functionally,

14 they are paid for by the clients since they

15 are ultimately going to have to be reflected

16 in certification fees. But, as a matter of

17 per-inspection, 95 percent of the time they

18 are paid for by the certifier themselves,

19 absorbed into our cost of doing business.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John and, then,

21 Katrina.

22 MR. FOSTER: So, my question is
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1 about kind of the infrastructure that a

2 certifier needs to have in order to do this.

3 How doable is it?

4 MR. LEWIN: It is fully

5 achievable. The infrastructure is the same

6 infrastructure you have in existence to

7 perform the inspections you are already

8 mandated to do. The additional expense of

9 performing a minimum number of unannounced

10 inspections is really not all that

11 significant. Our current expense for this is

12 about .45 percent of our expenses to do

13 unannounced inspections at 100 a year.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina?

15 MS. HEINZE: Just a followup to

16 the who pays question.

17 MR. LEWIN: Yes.

18 MS. HEINZE: I guess I have always

19 assumed, as a handler, that we would pay

20 because it would be, right, it is like our

21 annual certification; it is just happening

22 unannounced. I am a huge supporter of that.
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1 I have said this before. It is how we do both

2 our in-house and third-party food safety

3 audits. I have just assumed it would be

4 billed like our annual certification. Is

5 there a reason it can't be?

6 MR. LEWIN: With this part of the

7 rule, there is no regulatory reason that I

8 understand why it could not be paid for by the

9 operation. Because we do them based on

10 complaints and random, we do not want to

11 impose an additional burden on clients

12 randomly, and so, would rather absorb the cost

13 ourselves and spread it across the entire

14 client base as a best practice. But there are

15 a variety of models.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina, you can

17 follow up, and, then, we have Nick, Joe, Mac.

18 Let's be brief.

19 MS. HEINZE: Is there a reason the

20 annual, in addition to compliance, is there a

21 reason that the annual recertification audit

22 couldn't be done unannounced?
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1 MR. LEWIN: There is no reason

2 that cannot happen. It is not typical since

3 it is not always fair to expect the operation

4 to be able to have every last person they need

5 ready for an unannounced annual inspection.

6 So, by and large, we use them as spot

7 inspections and not as annuals, but they do

8 have the capacity to serve that function. And

9 all models are doable.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

11 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, I would just

12 like clarification on something you said about

13 the unannounced inspections could overlap with

14 the residue testing. Maybe I didn't hear it

15 quite right. Could you just elaborate on what

16 you were referring to there?

17 MR. LEWIN: My expectation would

18 be that some percentage of our forthcoming

19 unannounced inspections would also have a

20 residue-testing component, and we would be

21 serving both goals during the same visit.

22 MR. MARAVELL: So, you would be
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1 collecting samples on a random, unannounced

2 basis at that time?

3 MR. LEWIN: Yes, I would expect

4 so. That would make sense. I don't think

5 every unannounced inspection will involve

6 residue testing. However, there will be

7 overlap for a number of good reasons.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac, did you still

9 have a question?

10 MR. STONE: Yes. Jake, as

11 certifiers, and I agree with unannounced

12 inspections, but if you get there and the

13 owner is at the market and the guys are out in

14 the field, how do we maintain the right

15 relationship with our members as a matter of

16 order?

17 MR. LEWIN: I think it is very

18 important for certified operations to

19 understand that they have granted certifiers

20 the right to perform inspections during normal

21 business hours. And if nobody is there, you

22 have other legal matters. However, we have
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1 found that we can very successfully perform

2 any number of observations without trespass

3 and can perform unannounced inspections every

4 single day, regardless of if people are home.

5 It is very easy to go look at a field to see

6 whether or not it appears to have herbicide

7 damage, and that can suffice as an unannounced

8 inspection.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

10 MR. LEWIN: All right. Thank you

11 very much.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Joseph Ward is up

13 next. Maggie Lucas is standing by.

14 We are not going to take a break.

15 I urge members, if they want to take a break,

16 to go ahead, so long as we maintain quorum up

17 here. We are going to try to get caught up

18 before lunch.

19 DR. WARD: My name is Dr. Joe

20 Ward, and I have a Ph.D. in animal nutrition

21 and currently serve as the President of the

22 Iowa Organic Association.
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1 I come before this distinguished

2 Board to voice concerns to the recent

3 recommendations that outline specific

4 parameters for animal welfare, transport, and

5 slaughter. On the surface, these

6 recommendations appear to address the animal's

7 behavioral traits as well as physical space

8 considerations. Unfortunately, the

9 recommendations do not adequately address the

10 numerous factors that are associated with

11 housing considerations, adequate floor space,

12 biosecurity, or their exposure to disease and

13 predators.

14 There are too many variables that

15 influence these decisions to set in stone

16 specific numbers as absolute requirements

17 versus recommendations. This Committee cannot

18 foresee and legislate all combinations and

19 permutations for raising livestock.

20 If the intent of this Committee

21 was to increase the awareness of the need to

22 provide outdoor access and adequate housing,
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1 and to provide guidance on these issues for

2 all species, then we commend you for your

3 efforts.

4 It would appear that a more

5 realistic expectation for providing adequate

6 floor spacing and access of the outdoors based

7 on temperature considerations should be left

8 to those that are directly, that are actively

9 engaged in animal food production.

10 The Chair of the Livestock

11 Committee provided testimony yesterday

12 representing numbers for the space and housing

13 considerations for livestock from the American

14 Federation of Dairy and Animal Science that

15 were described as requirements from this

16 group. These space requirements are used by

17 this group in the content as a recommendation

18 and are not viewed as absolute minimum

19 numbers, as described by the Chair.

20 So, when these numbers are

21 transposed in the proposed rule by the NOSB,

22 they move from an industry recommendation to
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1 specific numerical requirements by this Board.

2 We believe that the proposed rules

3 must be tempered with realistic expectations

4 and warrant further review and further

5 discussion. We ask this Board to reconsider

6 the proposals as a must-do versus proposed in

7 the content as a guidance or a recommendation.

8 Let the scientific community composed of

9 animal behaviorists, animal nutritionists,

10 veterinarians, and farmers work together and

11 make the correct recommendations for the

12 individual operation versus this Board making

13 sweeping mandates that clearly will have far14 reaching, unintended consequences that would

15 not serve the highest good of the organic

16 industry nor its consumers.

17 Respectfully, on behalf of the

18 Iowa Organic Association and its members, I

19 thank you for consideration.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

21 Wendy?

22 MS. FULWIDER: We were just
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1 attempting to show you that we had looked at

2 a lot of numbers that are put out and

3 published by other groups. We did look at

4 other numbers that we did not put up on the

5 board yesterday in Committee, but we just

6 wanted to give you an example of the numbers

7 that we did look at.

8 And we do need to have some base

9 for enforcement. And that is why we have put

10 numbers forth, at the request of many that are

11 in the audience here today.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

13 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, I would just

14 like some clarification on two things you

15 said. Are you saying that, if our

16 recommendations were put forward as guidance

17 pending further back-and-forth with the

18 community, that that would be an acceptable

19 approach?

20 DR. WARD: Absolutely. I believe

21 when you put the word "requirement" based on

22 the NOP rules, they are a must-do. When you
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1 put them as a recommendation, then, when the

2 certifying agency is on the farm, they can

3 look at the aspects that affect that

4 particular rule and make clear recommendations

5 and clarify why a producer may be doing

6 something different than the actual

7 recommendation.

8 MR. MARAVELL: And, then, you said

9 let farmers, veterinarians, and I think

10 certifiers, sort of work this out. Are you

11 referring to on a farm-by-farm basis or are

12 you referring to looking at our standards or

13 our proposal here? I am just trying to

14 clarify what you are saying.

15 DR. WARD: What I am talking about

16 is, as far as guidance and recommendations,

17 obviously, the Board has worked very hard to

18 come up with recommendations. But when we

19 make them hard, fast rules across all

20 different types of farming situations, I think

21 we are in error.

22 We should allow those who are the
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1 experts that deal with it at the farm level

2 make those determinations on actual adequate

3 floor space or ventilation considerations or

4 outside access. Those considerations should

5 be done at that level, not at this level.

6 MR. MARAVELL: And so, the

7 certifier --

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick? Wendy, you

9 had a followup? Okay. All right, just one

10 more brief one will be fine. Go ahead, Nick.

11 MR. MARAVELL: I will hold.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve?

13 MR. DeMURI: So, based on your

14 proposal, how would you propose that the

15 certifiers were going to enforce that?

16 DR. WARD: Enforce what?

17 MR. DeMURI: Enforce the welfare

18 requirements. I mean without any hard, fast

19 numbers.

20 DR. WARD: Well, we have numbers

21 as recommendations, but when we put them in as

22 requirements, then it is an absolute. Then,
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1 the certifying agency has to adhere to that

2 number, and the farmer may be in violation.

3 When you place them as

4 recommendations, then, at that point, the

5 farmer must provide evidence why he does what

6 he does in his organic system plan. So,

7 therefore, there are ways to review those

8 situations and not be a hard-and-fast rule, as

9 it would be as a requirement.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do you still have

11 a followup, Nick?

12 MR. MARAVELL: Yes. It is very

13 similar to what Steve just asked. But what I

14 am wondering is, do you have a way to get

15 together with the other certifiers and come up

16 with something that we could look at that

17 would really be workable? We have to have

18 enforcement, and we have to rely on our

19 certifiers. So, is there something here that,

20 a process -- I'm talking about a process, not

21 a standard here -- is there a process here

22 that you think all the certifiers would feel
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1 comfortable going forward with?

2 Essentially, the process you are

3 talking about do you think that --

4 DR. WARD: I believe it is

5 imperative that you do involve the certifying

6 agencies and those that are on the ground

7 because the amount of time and the

8 implications and understanding it at the farm

9 level is paramount.

10 So, getting them involved would

11 sure clarify the issues, as Harriet described

12 when she is talking with producers or talking

13 with other organic groups. You are able to

14 clear up why the NOSB does what it does. So,

15 I think it would be a great idea, and I would

16 welcome that opportunity to be involved in

17 that.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy, last

19 question.

20 MS. FULWIDER: I think especially

21 the new Board members need to be aware that

22 this has been up for public comment for a
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1 number of years, and the Committee has worked

2 on this for a long time and put a lot of

3 effort to get these numbers right. And

4 certifiers and farmers and everyone have been

5 involved.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

7 DR. WARD: Thank you.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Maggie Lucas is up

9 next. Are you here, Maggie?

10 (No response.)

11 Okay, Dragan Macura is up next.

12 Tony Dryak is standing by.

13 MR. MACURA: My name is Dragan

14 Macura. I am the founder and part owner of

15 AgroThrive, Incorporated. We use corn steep

16 liquor as part of our process of making liquid

17 organic fertilizers. This is my third time

18 presenting on the topical of corn steep

19 liquor.

20 I support the recommendation by a

21 majority of the Crops Committee to continue

22 listing steep liquor as the non-synthetic and
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1 allowed in the use of organic fertilizers.

2 Today I would like to present some

3 of the scientific information that seems to be

4 either misunderstood or not interpreted

5 correctly by some of the opposition who is

6 advocating the listing of steep liquor as

7 synthetic.

8 Basically, they are using the

9 information that is obtained on the basis of

10 laboratory circumstances, which are totally

11 different than the industry conditions for

12 production of corn steep liquor by the

13 countercurrent corn steeping process.

14 I have presented these before. I

15 again summarize them in this table.

16 To be sure, I have never advocated

17 or tried to present that sulfur dioxide does

18 not break disulfide bonds. Sulfur dioxide, to

19 be clear, does break disulfide bonds under

20 certain laboratory conditions, and these

21 conditions are summarized in the table, in the

22 left side of this table.
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1 In particular, the corn kernel pH

2 has to be high, relatively high. The

3 introduction of high concentration of sulfur

4 dioxide has to be continued throughout the

5 process.

6 If you can take a look at the Biss

7 and Cogin, the best available science, they

8 have used a high concentration of sulfur

9 dioxide 11 times during the time that the

10 process takes place in 50 hours. And, also,

11 SO2 must be in its active form. These

12 conditions absolutely do not exist in the

13 steeping process in industry, and the

14 conditions for that are summarized here.

15 Could you have the next slide,

16 please? Actually, the last slide.

17 This is the process that actually

18 happens in the industry. And the last slide,

19 additional information, this is a publication

20 by Hull, et al., in 1996. That separated

21 individual components that are important in

22 determining this sterile water they found
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1 releases as much carbohydrate and protein as

2 the industrial process. When they add lactic

3 acid, it has no effect. When they add sulfur

4 dioxide, it actually levels or decreases the

5 release of proteins or carbohydrates, proving

6 that sulfur dioxide does not release proteins

7 --

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

9 MR. MACURA: -- or carbohydrates,

10 as claimed by the opposition.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

12 MR. MACURA: Thank you. I would

13 entertain any questions.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina?

15 MS. ELLOR: If sulfur dioxide is

16 not releasing proteins in varieties, why is it

17 used then?

18 MR. MACURA: From looking at the

19 process, it is used to stop the fermentation

20 -- the process is a biological process; there

21 is no doubt about that. The fresh corn is

22 added to steep liquor when it has very high
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1 lactic acid fermentation going on. It is very

2 well known that lactic acid bacteria are

3 proteolytic and they hydrolyze pretty well

4 everything, carbohydrates, starches, and

5 proteins alike.

6 It is used to help select for

7 lactic acid bacteria that, then, produce

8 lactic acid, stabilize the process, and

9 continue the release of starches during the

10 initial phase of the process.

11 It is used at the very end, and

12 you will see in the description of the process

13 it is used at the very end, only an hour and

14 a half before the 50-hour process is complete,

15 to stop the fermentation, so that the

16 hydrolysis or digestion of the components does

17 not continue and carry over into the other

18 components of the process.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina?

20 MS. ELLOR: So, just to follow up,

21 and very briefly, if you could, because this

22 is such a complicated issue, could you sum up
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1 what the essential -- we have two experts here

2 telling us two different things. Sum up very

3 simply and clearly and briefly, if you would,

4 where those differences occur.

5 MR. MACURA: First of all, the

6 experts, and I don't want to be disrespectful,

7 but one of the thing, as an expert, as a

8 science expert, the first thing you need to do

9 as a scientist is to look at the experimental

10 design of the research in question.

11 With all due respect, Dr. Johnston

12 did not read or he misinterpreted the

13 experimental design of the Biss and Cogin, the

14 most relevant research in this respect. He

15 missed, totally missed, the clear explanation

16 in the materials and methods that very high

17 concentrations of sulfur dioxide were used

18 right throughout the process every five hours

19 in the laboratory conditions that were set by

20 Biss and Cogin. That is not what happens in

21 the industry. Biss and Cogin explained that

22 very clearly, and they showed ample evidence
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1 that that is not what happens. He chose to in

2 the largest part ignore that.

3 And, also, we have seen testimony

4 yesterday, or at least the presentation by our

5 respected member of the NOSB here, that

6 emphasized some of the things that were just

7 not expressed in the research. Some of the

8 comments were made in the introductions and in

9 the textbooks, but that is not -- as a

10 scientist, you go to the experiments. You

11 evaluate whether the experiments were done

12 correctly. Then, you look at the conclusions

13 that were made and evaluate them on the basis

14 of how the experiments were set up. That

15 wasn't done in the expert opinion, and it is

16 clear from their --

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other

18 questions? John?

19 MR. FOSTER: I was wondering if you

20 had had a chance to read what Richard Theuer

21 had provided on this --

22 MR. MACURA: Yes.
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1 MR. FOSTER: -- and whether that

2 informed your opinion any more or less --

3 MR. MACURA: Yes.

4 MR. FOSTER: -- relative, inasmuch

5 as it might clarify or draw attention to what

6 you have already said?

7 MR. MACURA: Yes, I did. There

8 was a question of, if sulfur dioxide was

9 involved in the breakdown, in the breaking of

10 disulfide bonds, as we all agreed that it does

11 under certain conditions, there would have

12 been an increased sulfur content in the final

13 product in steep liquor.

14 Richard Theuer did a very

15 meticulous calculation of whether there is

16 extra sulfur found in the countercurrent

17 steeping, resulting steep liquor. He

18 concluded that there was none.

19 What else? I think that was the

20 most important.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

22 Last question, Jay.
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1 MR. FELDMAN: So, not only -- I

2 just want to make sure I understand this --

3 Dr. Johnston's misinterpreting the literature,

4 and the basic textbook Corn Chemistry and

5 Technology, 2nd Edition, is not telling us the

6 right thing, is that correct?

7 MR. MACURA: I am not going to

8 comment to that. I haven't read it. But the

9 textbooks usually use general statements. I

10 did not see any discussion of any research

11 that leads to that, nor did I see any research

12 published by Dr. Johnston in the area of

13 sulfur dioxide use.

14 MR. FELDMAN: Well, he has a

15 paper --

16 MR. MACURA: He has mentioned in

17 his introductions to all of his papers. His

18 expertise lies in enzyme use in the steeping

19 process; it is not in sulfur dioxide use.

20 He also has not published anything

21 peer-reviewed on the disassociation chemistry

22 of sulfurous acid. That is where the crux of
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1 the problem is. There is no chemical

2 environment in the countercurrent process to

3 allow for disulfide bond breakage by sulfur

4 dioxide.

5 MR. FELDMAN: Well, you just said

6 earlier that sulfur dioxide breaks disulfide

7 bonds.

8 MR. MACURA: Under the conditions

9 --

10 MR. FELDMAN: Now you are saying

11 it doesn't.

12 MR. MACURA: No, under the

13 conditions, laboratory conditions, clearly

14 outlined by Biss and Cogin, which are not

15 present in the countercurrent process.

16 MR. FELDMAN: Madam Chair, I am

17 beginning to think this is the organic

18 community's evolution debate.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Excuse me. Please

20 wait to be recognized.

21 MR. FELDMAN: We have got

22 textbooks that are --
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay?

2 MR. FELDMAN: -- respected in the

3 field which are being --

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay, let's wait

5 to be recognized, please. Thank you.

6 I have one final question. It is

7 actually for our Materials Chair. When we

8 look at the production of the material, and it

9 can be produced in a lab one way and it can be

10 produced at scale for production another way,

11 are we usually privy to those two different

12 production methods? And which do we use in

13 evaluating the material?

14 MS. HEINZE: Well, we need to

15 review the one that is going into being used

16 as an input. And, you know, if you go back to

17 that November of 2009 recommendation, one of

18 the things we said was we needed to do this

19 deep dive. So, I think this deep dive is very

20 important and we need to understand the

21 process that is being used as an input.

22 And, then, the other thing we said
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1 was we needed to use annotations to clarify

2 that.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

4 MR. FELDMAN: Madam Chair, can we

5 ask OMRI which they have done to evaluate?

6 Because I have been told that OMRI used our

7 policy to evaluate the countercurrent

8 commercial process.

9 And so, you are asking a question

10 that implies that we are relying on a

11 scientific study, and we are not.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I asked a

13 different question, and Katrina has answered

14 it.

15 Thank you.

16 MR. MACURA: Thank you.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tony Dryak is up

18 next. Richard Mathews is standing by.

19 MR. DRYAK: I come here for the

20 third time to talk about particularly organic

21 laying hens.

22 My background is I have been
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1 farmer for 37 years. I have experience with

2 all species of livestock. I think, as a

3 result, I have become pretty qualified to

4 discuss through observation.

5 I am going to speak from two

6 perspectives in the three minutes allotted.

7 I am going to speak from an outsider point of

8 view. That is, as a farmer that has gone

9 outside our country to promote U.S.

10 agriculture output, Asia as well as Europe.

11 When you are in those emergents,

12 you find out how wholly inadequate the

13 standard has been up to this point in time.

14 The standard that is being suggested right now

15 is a massive improvement, but it is still a

16 work-in-progress, but it does give us some

17 guidance.

18 Today, given the USDA standard, I

19 cannot export an egg in any form to another

20 country because we simply don't meet the

21 requirements. The EU has thousands of years,

22 the area has thousand of years of experience
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1 with laying hens, and they have evolved a

2 system that works very well. So, it behooves

3 us, and we can see that the standards that the

4 Livestock Committee has relied upon really

5 follows models that have come mainly from the

6 European continent. The humane farm animal

7 care standards are modeled after the European

8 and American farm, the same.

9 My other perspective is I look at

10 the situation from the perspective of a

11 chicken and how the consumer perceives what is

12 being produced for the U.S. market. I would

13 venture to guess that most organic eggs are

14 produced in the system you see on the right

15 and not on the system you see on the left.

16 You can go to the next slide.

17 This would be an example of a free

18 range.

19 Go to the next slide.

20 This is another example of free21 range organic.

22 Go to the next slide.
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1 This is another example of cage2 free organic production with no outdoor

3 access.

4 Go to the next slide.

5 This is another example of organic

6 within the system.

7 And so, as a consumer, the

8 consumer perceives they are receiving products

9 from the example on the left side, which is an

10 example from Europe where the hens range

11 freely and they are able to exhibit all the

12 natural behaviors, including foraging. A

13 chicken is an omnivore, which means he eats

14 both plant and animal material.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

16 Mac, Katrina, and John.

17 MR. STONE: If your certifier

18 documents that you would meet EU standards,

19 can you still, would you be able to export?

20 MR. DRYAK: Yes, but you first

21 have to set up a system that meets the

22 standard. One example is that the EU requires
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1 that you feed grass/plant material to a

2 chicken through the wintertime. And on our

3 farm, we have done that and successfully.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina?

5 MS. HEINZE: If I have learned

6 anything from materials classification, it is

7 that a rush to do a rule gets you in trouble

8 really fast.

9 (Laughter.)

10 So, it is a little bit of

11 declaration of where I stand, since we got a

12 reminder to do that.

13 But my question for you is, if we

14 implemented the more prescriptive, the things

15 that are under debate as guidance, so

16 certifiers had a line that they were trying to

17 certify to, but, then, had certifier

18 discretion to interpret when things weren't

19 that way, do you feel that is a good first

20 step, as we grapple with this and try to get

21 to where you want us to be?

22 MR. DRYAK: Well, could you
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1 describe the second condition? Could you

2 describe your second condition a little

3 better, please?

4 MS. HEINZE: Okay. So --

5 MR. DRYAK: If you are using the

6 proposal as a minimum, I am talking about the

7 discretionary part on the part of the

8 certifier.

9 MS. HEINZE: I guess my concern is

10 that I don't fully understand the unintended

11 consequences if we put this in the rule. So,

12 if we made it guidance and said this is what

13 we think is right, certifiers would go audit

14 to that, and chances are sometimes they would

15 find things that didn't comply with that.

16 If it is in the rule, they have no

17 discretion. If it is in guidance, they, then,

18 dig deeper. They may have to have

19 conversations, you know, with the NOP,

20 whoever, for those differences. Some are

21 going to be clearly not okay, and some might

22 be okay. You know, another way to get to the
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1 performance standard we are trying to get to.

2 So, that is the discretion.

3 I am starting to think that seems

4 like a first good first step. I am trying to

5 figure out if you think that is a good first

6 step.

7 MR. DRYAK: Okay. As a farmer, I

8 have been certified by four U.S. certifiers in

9 the almost 20 years of being a farmer. I have

10 never found one inspector to interpret, nor

11 the inspection agency to interpret, the rule

12 closely and similarly enough.

13 I have been a farmer that has

14 gotten in trouble three times, I haven't been

15 decertified, but even though I engage in due

16 diligence about fertilizer, about chickens,

17 whether or not they should have a beak trimmed

18 or a beak left on the bird.

19 And with the bird question, I beak

20 trimmed mildly. That certifier at that time

21 said they would not certify my hens.

22 So, I think allowing discretion is
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1 a real slippery slope, and you are not going

2 to see the kind of change that really needs to

3 happen out here.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Tina Ellor?

5 MS. ELLOR: With the Chair's

6 permission, I would like to ask the NOP if

7 they have a preference, as of this time,

8 whether they would like guidance or whether

9 they would like a recommendation.

10 MS. BAILEY: Melissa Bailey for

11 NOP.

12 We talked about this a little bit

13 on the Livestock Committee call as well, but

14 for the benefit of the Board, our preference

15 would be, as with other sort of practice

16 standards that the Board may have recommended,

17 it is a little bit different than the National

18 List where we are more constrained in

19 following the recommendation provided by the

20 Board.

21 With a practice standard

22 recommendation, we, the agency, has some
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1 latitude to look at the recommendation and

2 decide what, based on the current regulations,

3 the state of affairs, what is more appropriate

4 for guidance versus rulemaking.

5 So, what we had discussed was that

6 the Livestock Committee be clear in their

7 intent, and that the program could, then, take

8 that recommendation, sift through it, and

9 figure out what is most suitable for a rule

10 change versus more appropriate guidance. That

11 was my understanding of what we discussed with

12 the Committee.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick?

14 MR. MARAVELL: Just a

15 clarification. You said the EU requires you

16 feed grass/plant material through the winter.

17 Are we talking about a green pasture with

18 grass with roots in the ground?

19 MR. DRYAK: No, the regulation

20 talks about feeding a silage grass.

21 MR. MARAVELL: So, this is

22 something that has been harvested and kept in
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1 silage form?

2 MR. DRYAK: Correct.

3 MR. MARAVELL: And you do that?

4 MR. DRYAK: And I have done it as

5 an experiment. Right now, I am in a position

6 where I do not have an ongoing house

7 operating. But I am in another business that

8 relies upon eggs from the organic egg

9 industry. I make liquid egg products and

10 frozen organic egg products.

11 And so, I look into millions of

12 eggs' interiors and I get to see what kind of

13 quality comes through. So, that is a long14 winded answer.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John Foster?

16 MR. FOSTER: Hi. Thanks. I think

17 you might be just exactly the right person to

18 ask this question I have been dying to ask

19 about European models. I was kind of jogged

20 by the photos you had up there.

21 I am sure that there are hawks and

22 falcons and coyotes in Europe, too. The last
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1 time I checked, they had all those.

2 MR. DRYAK: Yes. Yes.

3 MR. FOSTER: And they had all the

4 human pathogens that --

5 MR. DRYAK: Yes.

6 MR. FOSTER: -- not all, but

7 certainly enough to carry their own.

8 MR. DRYAK: Yes.

9 MR. FOSTER: So, in those systems,

10 what is either the procedural or the consumer

11 expectation difference that would allow those

12 either predators or food safety to not be a

13 problem? Or are they? Do they have the same

14 problems and are tolerated differently or have

15 not the problems? And in the case of the

16 latter, why don't they have those problems?

17 MR. DRYAK: First of all, in

18 Europe eggs are not washed and they are not

19 refrigerated. And so, when you go into a

20 store, they are in the ambient temperatures.

21 The European poultry people will

22 argue that you compromise the integrity of the
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1 egg when you wash it because you wash off the

2 oil film that is there. An egg has 17 to 18

3 thousand pores in that surface, and when you

4 wash it, you, then, remove one of the barriers

5 to the interior of the egg.

6 On the numerous farms I have been

7 on in Europe for the purpose, I have been

8 invited there because I go and I have

9 exhibited in Germany and in London, and I

10 exhibit U.S. organic eggs, not USDA NOP. I

11 mean it is on my label, but I strive for a

12 higher standard. And I do presently move

13 products overseas, the product part, not the

14 shell egg.

15 But in being on the numerous

16 operations, when I show that picture of the

17 many birds out there in a pasture pretty far

18 away from a house, that is real. They do it.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sir, would you

20 mind addressing the question about the

21 predators?

22 MR. DRYAK: They appear, the
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1 poultry producers appear to spend more time

2 with their birds. It is not just feed them

3 and collect the eggs and move on. And they

4 appear to use dogs to protect, llama.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

6 Last question, Wendy?

7 MS. FULWIDER: Could I ask what

8 the size of the farms are over there, how many

9 hens per farm?

10 MR. DRYAK: Well, I can tell you

11 from my experience that there will be, there

12 could be a farm with 20,000 hens in four

13 different groupings of 5,000. They are

14 divided.

15 Some of the technology like the

16 electric fences that exist today called web

17 electric fences, all of that innovation is

18 from Europe. All the cages, the systems we

19 use in U.S. barns, most of them, if not all of

20 them, are made where the innovation occurs,

21 which is in Europe.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.
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1 MR. DRYAK: Okay. Thank you.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Richard Mathews is

3 up next. Julie Weisman is standing by.

4 MR. MATHEWS: Richard Mathews, NOP

5 Solutions, Incorporated, commenting on the

6 animal welfare recommendation, all warm

7 fuzzies removed due to time constraints.

8 Any rulemaking on this

9 recommendation will be classified as

10 significant for purposes of Executive Order

11 12866. It will be reviewed by the Office of

12 Management and Budget and other federal

13 departments such as the Small Business

14 Administration, Environmental Protection

15 Agency, and the Food and Drug Administration.

16 Executive Order 12866 requires in

17 part that NOP identify and assess the problem

18 to be addressed; assess the regulation's costs

19 and benefits; base decisions on information

20 concerning the regulation's needs and

21 consequences; identify and assess alternative

22 forms of regulation; avoid regulations that
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1 are inconsistent, incompatible, or duplicative

2 of other regulation; tailor regulations to

3 impose the least burden.

4 This regulation does not define

5 the problem, analyze the problem, or develop

6 possible solutions. It provides NOP with

7 nothing that enable it to comply with

8 Executive Order 12866.

9 Passing this recommendation will

10 signal change in the absence of actual change.

11 While NOP wrestles with what to do about this

12 recommendation, some certifying agents will

13 try to implement its provisions, thereby

14 increasing the problem of inconsistency in

15 standards application.

16 Further, those seeking instant

17 application of the recommendation will

18 generate illegitimate complaints. These

19 complaints will incite uncertainty in the mind

20 of consumers, to the detriment of producers.

21 One example: in May 2002, Analyst

22 B heard testimony regarding dioxin hazards and
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1 developed a compromise outdoor access

2 position. They also acknowledged that porches

3 would comply with outdoor access. What

4 changed in the past nine years?

5 Please withdraw this

6 recommendation until you have defined the

7 problem, analyzed the problem, documented

8 alternative solutions, and explained and

9 documented what has changed since May 2002,

10 thereby, providing NOP with an actionable

11 recommendation. Use Appendix A of your Policy

12 Manual as your guide.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

14 Any questions for Richard Mathews?

15 (No response.)

16 Julie Weisman is up next. Peggy

17 Miars is standing by.

18 Our lunch recess today will be

19 from 12:10 to 1:00 p.m. Actually, we will see

20 when we start.

21 (Laughter.)

22 MS. WEISMAN: All right. Hello.
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1 My name is Julie Weisman. I am a former NOSB

2 member. I was one of the handling

3 representatives from 2005 to 2010. I chaired

4 the Handling Committee for several years and

5 was also Vice Chair for a year.

6 Despite what is up on the screen,

7 my comments at this time are my personal

8 opinions. They do not necessarily represent

9 those of my companies, Elan Vanilla and

10 Flavorganics or other groups of which I am a

11 member.

12 In the runup to this spring 2011

13 meeting, I am seeing a pattern with regard to

14 Sunset recommendations that is disturbing to

15 me and which I fear belies a general attitude

16 regarding the National List.

17 And I was feeling the need to

18 question this before I arrived in Seattle.

19 Even though I have things I would like to say

20 about lots of specific things, I felt this was

21 way more important. And sitting in the room

22 for the past two days has strengthened that
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1 feeling.

2 During my tenure on the Board, our

3 charge during Sunset, as we understood it, was

4 to evaluate whether there was any new evidence

5 that a material was harmful to humans or the

6 environment or that a more benign material was

7 available to replace it. If neither of these

8 conditions was met, we were to respect the

9 work of previous Boards.

10 It has been long understood in

11 these meeting rooms that, once a material is

12 listed and products have entered the stream of

13 commerce, the disruption of having access to

14 ingredients, either by handlers or by farmers,

15 if that is cut off without adequate

16 replacement, it is detrimental to our entire

17 organic community.

18 Such disruption would, obviously,

19 be justified in the wake of credible, new

20 revelations about human and/or environmental

21 health and safety. But, short of that, it was

22 not justifiable; it was not seen that way.
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1 The Crop Committee's packet of

2 Sunset recommendations and the discussion that

3 I have witnessed here over the past two days

4 flies in the face of the work of previous

5 Boards. Almost half of the 12 synthetic

6 materials, crop materials, up for Sunset

7 review, the Crop Committee has recommended

8 against relisting in situations where no new

9 information on human or environmental toxicity

10 or about the availability of alternatives has

11 emerged.

12 It appears to me that a sentiment

13 has overtaken some Committees, maybe not the

14 whole Board, that the mission of the NOSB is

15 to make the National List as short as

16 possible, and that a shortened National List

17 is equated with greater organic integrity.

18 And I challenge this view.

19 I would like to underscore the

20 words of our Deputy Administrator McEvoy on

21 Tuesday morning, that there is no requirement

22 in the statute to shorten the National List.
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1 I touched on this issue somewhat in my

2 comments before this Board last fall in

3 Madison, and I will refer you back to

4 -- anyway, all I have time to say is that the

5 idea of adding a material --

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

7 MS. WEISMAN: -- one material to

8 the list often results in the most number of

9 acreage in production, and the beneficial

10 result of that is the purpose for our being

11 here at all.

12 Thank you.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thanks, Julie.

14 Any questions for Julie Weisman?

15 John Foster?

16 MR. FOSTER: Could you refer us

17 back to any document or resource, perhaps the

18 one you were about to refer to a moment ago,

19 that would help clarify or elucidate, expand

20 on your opinion?

21 MS. WEISMAN: I was referring to

22 my comments last fall at the meeting in
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1 Madison, and I made a comment that had mostly

2 to do with 606 and the issue of commercial

3 availability. And I guess I would encourage

4 people to go back over transcripts and

5 documents written by myself and other people

6 regarding that because it gives many, many

7 examples of situations where adding an item to

8 606, for instance, you know, on the outside it

9 is making the list longer. It is adding a

10 material that is not organic. But it is also

11 providing a way, they are providing ways to

12 actually increase organic integrity.

13 Colors was an example. Even

14 though the reason why they came off the list

15 was a bit unique, people say one item came off

16 and 18 items went on, but those, the addition

17 of those 18 items increased the organic

18 integrity of products because they were

19 replacing synthetics that had been used.

20 MR. FOSTER: Thank you.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina, did you

22 have a question?
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1 MS. HEINZE: I think Jay was ahead

2 of me, but, yes, I do.

3 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, first of all,

4 as you know, when the Committee deliberates on

5 these things, they look at the record and

6 transcripts going back to the first Board of

7 the NOSB, and many of the materials, I would

8 say a significant number, at that time were

9 put on the list with an understanding that

10 they would be reevaluated because there were

11 concerns about missing data, and so forth.

12 But, just to give you an example,

13 my question goes to the antibiotics. Are you

14 including that, antibiotics, which includes

15 two of our materials, streptomycin and

16 tetracycline, among those that the Board is

17 not, in your judgment, following protocol?

18 MS. WEISMAN: I would say yes. I

19 would say yes.

20 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Because, as

21 you know, the Board voted on tetracycline in

22 2008 --
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1 MS. WEISMAN: I was on the Board.

2 MR. FELDMAN: -- to remove it by

3 2011. So, that would, in effect, force us to

4 relook at that with a lens, don't you think,

5 with a lens that would be very critical of its

6 continued use? And the same would go for

7 streptomycin, wouldn't you think, because of

8 the history on the Board where we have seen

9 numerous votes that either were very close --

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Please ask your

11 question.

12 MR. FELDMAN: The question is,

13 since the votes were very close, don't you

14 think the Board has a duty in that context to

15 sort of evaluate the thing more carefully than

16 just relying on a very close vote?

17 MS. WEISMAN: Certainly, but I

18 believe that there are, it feels like there

19 are factors influencing -- I mean, first of

20 all, that was a compromise. I was on that

21 Board. I was part of that vote, and putting

22 the extension was a compromise.
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1 And I think that I would never

2 argue against taking a look, but I feel like

3 the same information can always get

4 interpreted in different ways. I don't

5 believe that there is new information from

6 today from the time that was vote was taken.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Julie.

8 Board members, I want to remind us

9 all what we agreed on at the beginning of this

10 meeting, and what the NOP published an

11 emergency Federal Register notice on. That is

12 three minutes for public comment, and, then,

13 we agreed two minutes of repartee questions to

14 clarify.

15 Let's make sure that we don't

16 debate the public, that what we really do is

17 respect the fact that people travel long

18 distances to share their opinion, and we want

19 to have a chance to ask them questions. But

20 really let them share their opinion.

21 We have started to drift a bit

22 from that five minutes. So, we are going to
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1 make sure and tighten that back up in the

2 second half of the day, and recess now for

3 lunch.

4 It is quarter after. Let's all be

5 seated at 10 after 1:00.

6 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

7 went off the record at 12:14 p.m. and resumed

8 at 1:13 p.m.)

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N

2 1:13 p.m.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: The NOSB is back

4 in session. We have quorum, and we will get

5 started.

6 First up today is Darren Jones,

7 and standing by is Robin Allan and, then,

8 Terry Shistar.

9 We first have a correction from

10 our Materials Chair on a piece of information

11 she provided yesterday.

12 MS. HEINZE: Hi. So, this is for

13 the Board. I have two things.

14 Are you guys ready? Okay.

15 First, right before the break,

16 John asked if there was a foundational

17 document on our Sunset process, and there is.

18 Once Lisa is back, I will ask her to get

19 copies to you guys. It is a March 2005 NOSB

20 Sunset process that goes through a lot of the

21 things that you heard Kim and Julie talk

22 through.
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1 The second thing is that yesterday

2 during the Materials Committee presentation on

3 classification, Colehour asked me a very good

4 question which was, is that "and" or "or"?

5 And I answered incorrectly. And thank you for

6 Calvin for being persistent.

7 So, the answer is the

8 recommendation says it is chemical change or

9 present at a significant level. And I don't

10 know where my brain was. That was incorrect.

11 So, either of those two things makes something

12 synthetic.

13 So, if you have questions, we can

14 talk about it tomorrow, but I wanted to get

15 that on the record.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you,

17 Katrina.

18 Okay. Any other announcements or

19 clarifications before we proceed with public

20 testimony?

21 (No response.)

22 Okay. First up, then, is Darren
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1 Jones at the podium.

2 And it looks like we will need to

3 do a little switcharoo here, that Darren is

4 not quite ready. So, Robin, do you mind going

5 ahead? Okay.

6 MS. ALLAN: Everybody feel ready

7 here? Okay.

8 All right. Hello. My name is

9 Robin Allan. I'm the Director of Grower and

10 Livestock Certification for CCOF. We are the

11 largest certification agency in the United

12 States. So, we are representing a fair number

13 of livestock producers here.

14 We strongly support the move of

15 the NOSB towards explicitly addressing animal

16 welfare in the NOP standards. We are

17 committed to the long-term development of

18 enforceable and consistent standards.

19 We believe that organic can be,

20 and should be, the leading option for

21 livestock certification, and organic producers

22 should have no reason to seek additional
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1 humane certification.

2 We thank you for the obvious

3 effort, Wendy, that you put into taking the

4 public comment into account and making a

5 number of the necessary changes to the two

6 documents that you presented yesterday. From

7 a non-Board member point of view, it was very,

8 very difficult to follow the conversation and

9 the changes that were made, but we really

10 thank you for making those publicly available

11 and posting those online, so that we could

12 look them over.

13 Up until yesterday, I was prepared

14 to come up here to advocate that the proposals

15 be withdrawn and not be voted on, and be

16 reworked. After yesterday's Livestock

17 Committee presentation, I am able to say that

18 I think that the proposals can move forward

19 to the NOP. I don't necessarily think that

20 these need to end up being fully in

21 rulemaking, but I do really support, we have

22 stated this before, and I continue to support
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1 a lot of this to go to guidance. And I trust

2 that the program can differentiate between

3 what should be guidance and what should be

4 rulemaking.

5 I do think that both the proposals

6 have some significant flaws in the specifics,

7 but we will be prepared to submit more

8 detailed comments during a future rulemaking

9 process where we have more time. This is very

10 difficult, a short period.

11 I really recognize that the Board

12 feels you have beat this proverbial horse to

13 death, that we don't beat the cows, just the

14 horses, and you are ready to move forward.

15 You know, Tina said there's a push to do

16 something, and I really recognize that.

17 So, I do want to say that, as a

18 general point, organic livestock producers are

19 really suffering under the weight of increased

20 burdens of paperwork and increased regulation.

21 Please let's be very careful about unchecked

22 increases on requirements for OSP
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1 descriptions, operator documentation, and

2 inspection requirements. Such requirements

3 often are unrealistic and do not necessarily

4 improve animal welfare or ensure organic

5 integrity.

6 So, thank you very much.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Robin.

8 Any questions? Reuben and, then,

9 Nick.

10 MR. WALKER: I was talking, and I

11 didn't get your organization. You mentioned

12 that you were in support of the recommendation

13 of the Livestock Committee?

14 MS. ALLAN: Yes, I work for CCOF.

15 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, I was just

16 wondering if you could comment on the

17 increased paperwork requirements. You are

18 probably going to hear this from me quite a

19 bit because I am representing the producers.

20 MS. ALLAN: Yes.

21 MR. MARAVELL: What do you feel

22 has contributed to that, and is there anything
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1 that the certifiers can do independently?

2 Just with what is there now, is there anything

3 certifiers can do to reduce that paperwork

4 burden? Or do you feel that you can't reduce

5 it on your own? So, what's contributed to it,

6 and can you do anything now?

7 MS. ALLAN: Yes. Specifically,

8 the implementation of the pasture rule for

9 ruminants over the last year, starting last

10 June and going through to this June, has

11 really significantly increased the paperwork

12 burdens. And a lot of the way that that rule

13 was written includes all the specifics that

14 must be described in the organic system plan

15 and must be documented.

16 So, we find that even for a

17 completely free-range beef producer that may

18 feed a couple bales of alfalfa in the winter,

19 they now have to keep very detailed documented

20 records of their dry matter intake, dry matter

21 demand in a way that doesn't really improve

22 the organic integrity, but is required because
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1 the rule says that it must include that.

2 We would really like to decrease

3 those requirements, but are not sure how to do

4 that well, enforcing the rule as it is

5 written.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac?

7 MR. STONE: Which part might you

8 like to see in rulemaking versus guidance?

9 MS. ALLAN: I definitely think

10 that guidance is more appropriate for the

11 specific stocking rate densities. I think

12 that those are somewhat untested in the

13 organic community, and that putting those

14 directly into rulemaking could really be

15 problematic.

16 I would say the same thing for

17 some of the requirements, some of the

18 definition-type items, too, such as soil, the

19 definition of soil. I think that these things

20 can have some long-term repercussions that are

21 often hard to anticipate right away.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.
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1 Next up is Darren Jones or, sorry,

2 Darren Williams, and Terry Shistar is standing

3 by.

4 MR. WILLIAMS: Hello. Darryl

5 Williams with Oregon Tilth.

6 Let's start with chlorine. We

7 agree with the annotation change by the

8 Handling Committee for chlorine materials and

9 support the relisting of chlorine. However,

10 we request that the Crops Committee revise

11 their annotation to be consistent with the

12 Handling Committee and suggest the annotation

13 from the Crops Committee is not clear or that

14 the suggested annotation for the Crops

15 Committee is not clear in stating that

16 chlorine materials are allowed for direct food

17 contact.

18 We concur with the OTA and others

19 that the annotations for both handling and

20 crop usage should allow for alternative

21 intervention steps and/or testing which will

22 reduce and verify that the residual will
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1 satisfy the Safe Water Drinking Act.

2 We ask that clarification will be

3 made after this regarding the labeling of

4 organic commodities, 100 percent organic or

5 organic, which are sanitized in accordance

6 with the new annotation.

7 Vitamins and minerals. We support

8 the renewal of vitamins and minerals to the

9 National List, but do not support the current

10 annotation for vitamins and minerals, as it

11 doesn't support nutrients which were

12 originally supported by the NOSB.

13 We do not fully support the

14 revised annotation from the NOSB.

15 Verification of what is allowed could be

16 problematic for the certifier. An example, if

17 we are presented with a nutrient and we review

18 the regulation and verify compliance based on

19 our research, and down the road a complaint is

20 filed because we approved X, Y, Z, how will

21 the NOP determine if X, Y, Z is allowed or

22 not? Some certifiers are saying the only way
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1 to know is a prescriptive list, but,

2 generally, we don't support a closed or

3 prescriptive list.

4 Additionally, all certifiers will

5 need guidance and very good communication with

6 the NOP in making certification compliance

7 decisions based on this recommendation.

8 Corn steep liquor. We support the

9 Crop Committee's recommendation listing of

10 corn steep liquor as non-synthetic. Sulfur

11 dioxide does not chemically change the corn

12 steep liquor when consulting the definition of

13 chemical change.

14 For the proposed annotation, we do

15 not support the reoccurring process listing,

16 quote, "via the traditional countercurrent

17 corn wet milling process" as this causes a

18 burden on certifiers to determine if the

19 process follows the exact process denoted by

20 this statement.

21 Sunset materials, tocopherols.

22 Agree with the Committee to relist
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1 tocopherols, but would like an annotation

2 change or some sort of clarification be made

3 that the use of organic rosemary extracts as

4 opposed to a non-organic source of rosemary

5 extract.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Darryl,

7 and my apologies for saying your name wrong

8 twice.

9 MR. WILLIAMS: That's fine.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It looks like a

11 couple of questions. Steve and, then, Jay.

12 MR. DeMURI: Can you reiterate

13 your agreement or non-agreement with the

14 nutrient, vitamins, and minerals proposal? I

15 am interesting in what exactly you would like

16 to see.

17 MR. WILLIAMS: So, we are not in

18 current support of the current annotation. We

19 like the way it is going with the revised

20 annotation, but we believe that it is not

21 defined enough. Yet, we don't want a

22 completely closed list because of the
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1 allowance for anything new in the future that

2 is found, and, then, you know, if the FDA is

3 going to list that right away, which is

4 probably not going to happen.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve?

6 MR. DeMURI: No. 2, so a followup.

7 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.

8 MR. DeMURI: So, you don't like

9 the annotation as it currently stands. What

10 if there was no annotation, just nutrient

11 vitamins and minerals, period?

12 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, from what we

13 saw yesterday in the list that was brought up,

14 because of that, we wouldn't necessarily agree

15 with no annotation, either. I think the

16 revised annotation that is coming out is the

17 best one by far, but I think it needs to be a

18 little more detailed as to where people can go

19 to find what they need.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I have one more

21 question, and, then, Jay, we will get to you.

22 So, when you say "revised
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1 annotation", did you mean the recommendation

2 the Handling Committee published to

3 regulations.gov?

4 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Thank you.

6 Yes, we have had a lot of information out

7 there. I just wanted to make sure --

8 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: -- we all knew

10 what we were talking about.

11 Jay?

12 MR. FELDMAN: Can you give us an

13 example of -- this relates to the Crops'

14 motion -- an example of a product or a process

15 that you would think could be eliminated as a

16 result of the language that has been proposed

17 by the Crops Committee?

18 MR. WILLIAMS: I am not really --

19 could you repeat? I am not really --

20 MR. FELDMAN: I am trying to

21 figure out if there is a specific -- you said

22 that you don't think the current language will
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1 allow chlorine products to come into direct

2 contact with food. I think that is what you

3 said.

4 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.

5 MR. FELDMAN: So, I am trying to

6 ask if you could give us an example of a

7 product or products or even process that would

8 be at risk if this language were to be

9 adopted.

10 MR. WILLIAMS: So, I do agree with

11 what the Handling Committee is proposing.

12 MR. FELDMAN: The Crops Committee.

13 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.

14 MR. FELDMAN: I am talking about

15 the Crops Committee.

16 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, the

17 Crops Committee, I think that language should

18 be added to their annotation as well, so it is

19 clear to the farmers for post-handling harvest

20 processes that they know what they can use,

21 and that it is clear to certifiers as well.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Right.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

2 Okay. Next up is -- and, by the

3 way, I stopped Jay there just because we were

4 at about the six-minute mark -- let's see,

5 Terry Shistar is next.

6 And, Lisa, I didn't quite get who

7 was standing by on the list. Thank you.

8 Bart Alexander is standing by, and

9 Mel Gaiman is after that.

10 MS. SHISTAR: Okay. I have got

11 some slides up there.

12 I am Terry Shistar, and I am on

13 the Board of Directors of Beyond Pesticides,

14 and I have been for something like 26 years.

15 And I submitted several written

16 comments. So, this is going to be fairly

17 quick.

18 Next slide.

19 The first thing I want to talk

20 about is corn steep liquor. We support the

21 minority view that corn steep liquor is

22 synthetic according to the policies adopted by
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1 the Board because it is the result of chemical

2 change produced by the introduction of a

3 synthetic.

4 Every independent scientist the

5 Board has heard from has found CSL to be

6 synthetic, including the USDA scientists who

7 were requested to give their evaluation and

8 OMRI.

9 Next slide, please.

10 And when the Committee and/or

11 Board rejects the scientific expert opinion

12 that they have invited, it makes the decisions

13 appear arbitrary and capricious.

14 Next slide, please.

15 On to antibiotics. The use of

16 antibiotics contributes to resistance to

17 antibiotics in human pathogens, and this is an

18 important human health impact that I am afraid

19 that the Board is not taking, well, it has not

20 been hearing from, hearing about very much.

21 If bacteria on the plants and in

22 the soil are sprayed with an antibiotic, those
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1 with genes for resistance to the chemical

2 increase compared to those susceptible to the

3 antibiotic. And this can be any bacteria,

4 whether it is the fire blight bacteria or

5 natural soil-dwelling bacteria, whatever.

6 Those genes may be taken up by

7 other bacteria by a number of mechanisms

8 collectively known as horizontal gene

9 transfer. They include transformation, in

10 which the bacteria pick up DNA that is free in

11 the environment, for example, from dead and

12 degraded bacteria; conjugation from direct

13 cell-to-cell contact, which may involve

14 unrelated bacteria and is mediated by plasmids

15 or transposons, and transduction, the transfer

16 of DNA via phage.

17 Next slide, please.

18 So, this is just a picture, and I

19 think you saw it in the Committee's

20 presentation.

21 Next slide, please.

22 So, once the resistant genes are
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1 present in any bacteria, they increase the

2 pool of resistance genes and the likelihood

3 that human pathogens will acquire that

4 resistance. And I passed on an article to

5 that effect.

6 Next slide, please.

7 The next thing I want to talk

8 about is the significance of synthetic

9 residues. And we support the minority

10 proposed definition.

11 Next slide, please.

12 The majority's reliance on

13 standards set under other statutes is contrary

14 to the Organic Foods Production Act.

15 Standards set under FIFRA, the FFDCA, and the

16 Clean Water Act rely on risk assessments that

17 in various ways discount health and

18 environmental effects.

19 As someone who has taught courses

20 in risk assessment and hazardous materials

21 policy, I know that the number of things that

22 OFPA requires that you consider go far beyond
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1 those other laws.

2 Next slide.

3 And this was covered this morning,

4 but I thought I would put it up here because

5 this shows another example of where the actual

6 tolerances are insufficient.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

8 much, Ms. Shistar.

9 Any questions? Katrina?

10 MS. HEINZE: I am wondering if you

11 could tell me what makes a scientist

12 independent, from your perspective.

13 MS. SHISTAR: Well, in this

14 regard, I think an independent scientist is

15 one who doesn't stand to benefit from the way

16 this turns out, the decision turns out.

17 Colehour -- or --

18 (Laughter.)

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour?

20 MR. BONDERA: Thank you, Dr.

21 Shistar.

22 I think I want to raise that
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1 question, too, because it is a little

2 confusing to me. The Crops Committee really

3 didn't listen to the opinions of the

4 consultant scientists. And I wonder if you

5 could expand on that in terms of this process

6 related to the CSL decision that was made, and

7 specifically, on the topic, my personal

8 interest -- and I don't know if you will get

9 to this or not, but I think this came up

10 earlier in the CSL dialog -- was related to

11 the distinction between chemical and

12 biological change processes going on with the

13 corn steep liquor issue. I don't know if you

14 are going to fit that in or not, but

15 specifically about --

16 MS. SHISTAR: Well, I might be

17 able to if Lisa will give me the next couple

18 of slides. Go on.

19 Well, I have some quotes here from

20 Dr. David Johnston from what he submitted.

21 And I just wanted to highlight, I am going to

22 mention the things that are in bold here, so
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1 I can flip through them fast.

2 He mentioned that the breaking of

3 disulfide bonds does occur as the result of

4 sulfur dioxide addition.

5 Can I have the next one?

6 There are new chemicals formed due

7 to the addition of sulfur dioxide, and these

8 are formed during the breaking of disulfide

9 bonds.

10 Next slide.

11 And as to whether this is a

12 necessary part of the countercurrent wet

13 milling process, he quoted from this text. I

14 guess that is about it.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any more

16 questions, just real quick as we wrap up?

17 (No response.)

18 Thank you.

19 MS. SHISTAR: Thanks.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Bart Alexander is

21 next. Are you here?

22 (No response.)
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1 We are going to keep moving. Mel

2 "Gaiman" or "Gehman"?

3 George Bass is standing by.

4 MR. GEHMAN: Good afternoon, Board

5 and Program.

6 I am Mel Gehman, Heritage Poultry

7 Management from Pennsylvania.

8 I have worked in poultry husbandry

9 and health and nutrition all my life. I grew

10 up on a poultry farm that was a layer pullet

11 farm with cage-free birds. That is the way

12 the birds were back then.

13 I later worked, after being

14 educated in animal science, I worked for USDA

15 at the Agricultural Research Center,

16 Beltsville, Maryland, in the Poultry Branch.

17 I also served on the Pennsylvania Certified

18 Organic Board.

19 This public input is a very vital

20 part of the organic egg program as well as

21 other organic programs. At this very critical

22 time, we are making the organic egg program
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1 more relevant to the consumers' viewpoint.

2 At the same time, the egg safety

3 program is being enforced. This is very

4 important for us to get this right, and we

5 must finish the job.

6 Our management company has been

7 involved in producing organic eggs under

8 certification since 1997, and we have focused

9 on doing it right and have anticipated a

10 strengthening program.

11 Our flocks have been under the Egg

12 Quality Assurance Program, specifically, the

13 Pennsylvania Egg Quality Assurance Program,

14 and our eggs have been under the PEQAP and

15 certified humane seal.

16 There are two items that I would

17 like to address in relation to the FDA egg

18 rule for egg safety. We recommend that

19 pullets are not put out during the growing

20 period. The pullets must be grown up, strong,

21 and healthy with a well-developed immune

22 system. The hens receive their last SE
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1 vaccination at 13 weeks of age with three

2 weeks to build immune response and recover

3 from the handling stress before they are

4 adapted to a new environment.

5 The other item, the house

6 openings, to meet the FDA rule of keeping the

7 house tight, we think there is excess openings

8 at the five foot per thousand birds. We think

9 that two foot per thousand would be adequate,

10 and has been shown to be adequate in our

11 systems for the birds to go outside and enter.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

13 Any questions?

14 (No response.)

15 Thank you, sir.

16 MR. GEHMAN: Thank you.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: George Bass is up

18 next. Trudy Bialic is standing by.

19 MR. BASS: Thank you very much for

20 all the great work of the past and the present

21 for the NOP, the volunteers, the NOP staff,

22 the producers, and the public.
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1 In Massachusetts, we are the only

2 large egg farm left, and we have an organic

3 farm. As you know, the largest egg company in

4 the United States has about 27 million hens.

5 I bought an old farm that was out of business.

6 They had 60,000 hens and pullets. Now we have

7 about 68,000 hens in one place.

8 Now we give our hens access to the

9 outdoors on porches in good weather. The AMS

10 allowed us to use porches in 2002.

11 Here are the three points on

12 porches:

13 No. 1, there are many diseases,

14 worms, and rodents on soil. There are five

15 strong, good veterinarians that told us that

16 we should not put hens on the soil. Two vets

17 have Ph.D.s. We have those letters from the

18 scientists.

19 We have neighbors on the left, on

20 the front, on the right, in the back.

21 Massachusetts has their own area. We just

22 don't have space. If we had all the hens on
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1 the soil, the manure would put out an awful

2 stench.

3 No. 3, the Quabbin Reservoir is 65

4 miles west of Boston and 40 communities use

5 this for water. Every day they use 200

6 million gallons of water.

7 There was a small brook close to

8 the farm. If there were hens on the soil, the

9 manure would contaminate the brook through

10 runoff. The brook goes on a river and, then,

11 goes to a huge aqueduct for nine miles to the

12 reservoir. I present you with two maps of the

13 area.

14 Thank you for your time.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

16 much, Mr. Bass.

17 Any questions?

18 (No response.)

19 Thank you very much.

20 Trudy, you are up next.

21 Joan Smiley is standing by.

22 MS. BIALIC: Thank you for your
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1 time.

2 Our company, PCC Natural Markets,

3 has nine certified organic stores, soon to be

4 ten, 46,000 active member/owners. We are the

5 largest consumer-owned, consumer-operated

6 grocery retailer in the country. Today I am

7 speaking for management.

8 We realize that synthetic nutrient

9 additives was postponed as a topic until this

10 fall, but we already have had to face consumer

11 questions and concerns. So, we feel compelled

12 to share our experience today.

13 It is very easy to empathize with

14 the expertise and time needed to review

15 individual additives; we know that. But the

16 recommendation to allow any synthetic additive

17 deemed a nutrient without petition and review

18 we feel is an abdication of responsibility

19 vested in NOSB for very good reason.

20 Organic consumers expect that, if

21 any synthetics are allowed, each one is vetted

22 through the formal petition and review
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1 process. To surrender that power that we

2 fought so hard to give you to protect the

3 consumers' interest, very hard fought and hard

4 won, to surrender that authority voluntarily

5 betrays public trust.

6 When a grandmother recently asked

7 if the DHA and ARA in a certain formula was

8 safe for her grandson, we had to answer in all

9 honesty, in the interest of transparency, that

10 NOSB did not vet those additives. Yes, we

11 realize there are complaints of side effects.

12 For these reasons, we feel that

13 companies that have been using DHA and ARA,

14 knowing the petition and review process,

15 should not get an automatic pass.

16 PCC has discontinued, suspended

17 the sale of organic products with these

18 additives. We pulled the infant formula, flax

19 oil, and children's vitamins two weeks ago.

20 We support enforcement action that

21 would require removing these questionable

22 synthetics from products bearing the organic
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1 seal.

2 We ask you to honor the mandate

3 given NOSB to protect the consumers' interest.

4 We sell trust, really, much more than we are

5 selling individual products. Please ensure

6 that synthetic additives of any kind, nutrient

7 or not, are the rarest exceptions, not

8 business as usual, and that each one is

9 reviewed individually from a precautionary

10 position.

11 Consumers are very grateful for

12 the NOP's age of enforcement.

13 Thank you very much. Any

14 questions?

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Trudy.

16 Any questions? Jay?

17 MR. FELDMAN: Thanks, Trudy.

18 So, what do you think we should

19 do?

20 MS. BIALIC: Enforcement action.?

21 Well --

22 MR. FELDMAN: No, in terms of the
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1 issue of moving forward on vitamins,

2 nutrients, and minerals with open-endedness or

3 with citations?

4 MS. BIALIC: Vitamins and minerals

5 seem to be a different category than the basic

6 nutrient additives.

7 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Yes.

8 MS. BIALIC: So, I mean, to me, I

9 am trying to address specifically the

10 synthetic nutrient additive recommendation

11 that was put forth by the Committee --

12 MR. FELDMAN: Okay.

13 MS. BIALIC: -- allow any without

14 review and process --

15 MR. FELDMAN: Right.

16 MS. BIALIC: -- of synthetic

17 nutrient additives.

18 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do PCC consumers

20 know that most of the essential vitamins and

21 minerals are synthetic?

22 MS. BIALIC: I don't -- well,
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1 essential vitamins and minerals, I know that,

2 for example, like vitamin C, for example, we

3 have discussed that a lot of the vitamin C is

4 synthetic. Yes, they do know that, for

5 example. Yes.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

7 MS. SMILEY: My name is Joan

8 Smiley, and I am withy Falcon Lab.

9 I am here to encourage the Board

10 to expedite the review and approval of the

11 ammonium nonanoate petition for use as an

12 herbicide on food crops. To support this

13 group in determining an appropriate

14 annotation, we have included recommended

15 wording in the petition.

16 Ammonium noanoate already has an

17 EPA exemption from residue tolerance. And

18 according to the EPA, residue due to the

19 active application of ammonium nonanoate as

20 labeled will likely not exceed that already

21 present in nature and, in fact, would be

22 indistinguishable.
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1 I would like to acknowledge the

2 balance this group must consider. USDA has

3 the goal of increasing organic acreage. To

4 make this happen, barriers to productivity for

5 organic farmers, weeds being the biggest

6 issue, must have better solutions.

7 Organic farmers want to know that

8 they can be productive within standards.

9 Machine-driven weed-control methods are costly

10 in time, money, and soil health, and

11 currently-allowed methods only include

12 expensive hand labor or very expensive,

13 ineffective NOP-allowed herbicides.

14 Consumers want the safety that the

15 term "organic" ensures for them and deserve

16 integrity to the standards.

17 So, what is ammonium nonanoate?

18 It is, by definition, soap. Soap is a

19 significant part of everyday living. It is in

20 every household and plays a huge role in most

21 industries, including healthcare.

22 According to the EPA, residues
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1 from pesticide uses of soap salts are not

2 likely to exceed the levels of naturally3 occurring fatty acids in commonly-eaten foods.

4 And the FDA lists ammonium salts, soap, as

5 allowed food additives.

6 Soap is already allowed as a

7 synthetic substance, and it is on 205.601 with

8 restrictions to non-food. Ammonium soap salts

9 are considered chemically-identical to

10 potassium and sodium salts, which were placed

11 on 40 CFR 180.950 in 2006.

12 That ammonium salts did not get

13 the same placement seems an incongruent

14 technicality that has significant lost

15 economic opportunity to organic farmers.

16 Ammonium nonanoate biogrades in less than 24

17 hours and will not translocate in soil. Thus,

18 environmental persistence is not an issue.

19 And according to the EPA, ammonium nonanoate

20 is already on soil and crops naturally.

21 And I would like to clarify. A

22 petition was submitted for a new substance
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1 addition rather than an annotation change for

2 the broad category of soap because it has been

3 discussed at these meetings that, if

4 substances are considered, it should be in the

5 specific, not in the general.

6 Ammonium nonanoate is a precise

7 subset of the broad category of soap with a

8 distinct CAS number, and is the only ammonium

9 soap that both occurs in nature and has

10 herbicidal qualities. Being precise makes

11 sense for maintaining high standards.

12 Can an organic herbicide be

13 effective? The answer is yes. Here is one

14 example of a very persistent crop-draining

15 weed, lamb's quarters. And less than one day

16 later, the applied areas are weed-free.

17 It is a no-brainer that weeds are

18 the most expensive productivity challenge to

19 organic farmers. This substance would be one20 third to one-fourth the cost of other options

21 and would provide a much-needed tool for

22 organic farmers.
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1 In addition, ammonium nonanoate

2 meets all the criteria for all the

3 constituencies.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

5 Any questions? Jay Feldman?

6 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. So, I have a

7 couple of questions. The current listing that

8 we have for fatty acids you are saying does

9 not include this. And ammonium nonanoate is

10 chemically-identical to what exactly?

11 MS. SMILEY: Potassium and sodium

12 salts.

13 MR. FELDMAN: Okay.

14 MS. SMILEY: According to the EPA.

15 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Now, the

16 first question.

17 MS. SMILEY: The first question is

18 soap-based herbicides are actually on

19 205.601 --

20 MR. FELDMAN: Right.

21 MS. SMILEY: -- with an annotation

22 for non-food use.
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1 MR. FELDMAN: I see. So, you

2 would like, what you are looking for is an

3 allowance in crop reduction, essentially?

4 MS. SMILEY: Correct, for a

5 precise subset of what is already on the --

6 MR. FELDMAN: Of the fatty acids?

7 MS. SMILEY: -- allowed

8 synthetics.

9 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

10 MS. SMILEY: Thank you.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sure.

12 Joan Smiley is up next.

13 (Laughter.)

14 Oh, I am so sorry. Okay.

15 Thank you, Joan.

16 Patty Lovera is up next. Alexis

17 Randolph is standing by. We'll get it.

18 MS. LOVERA: Hi. My name is Patty

19 Lovera. I work for an organization called

20 Food and Water Watch. We are a consumer

21 organization, and Food and Water Watch is a

22 member of the National Organic Coalition.
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1 So, in the interest of time, I

2 will just say that we support NOC's

3 recommendation on conflict of interest.

4 And, also, my colleague Tyler

5 Shannon talked about aquaculture on Tuesday.

6 So, if folks have questions about aquaculture,

7 I could answer those as well.

8 Also, I will just say very, very

9 quickly on the animal welfare issue, you know,

10 we share the concerns a lot of other groups

11 have expressed about lining up these standards

12 with the other standards that are out there

13 and really taking a good look at that, because

14 that is a huge, huge concern of the folks who

15 are our members and supporters. They are very

16 motivated by the animal welfare issue, and

17 there is a lot of competition out there in the

18 marketplace already.

19 I am going to spend a little bit

20 more time on the nutrients issue. Given all

21 of the changes and things that have happened

22 in recent weeks, we are just interested in
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1 figuring out what can we deal with now. And

2 it seems like the vitamins and minerals piece

3 we can deal with now. I think there has been

4 lots of good discussion about that.

5 I think we would echo a lot of

6 what Trudy was just talking about, even on the

7 other nutrients issues, about the control and

8 organic having its own process for dealing

9 with these, as opposed to kind of a blanket

10 approval process. Blanket approvals without

11 the annotations about which foods qualify for

12 fortification with which vitamins and

13 minerals, we think would be a mistake.

14 You know, the control that organic

15 has, that the NOSB and the NOP have to create

16 these lists with these kinds of conditions,

17 puts us in a position, hopefully, to then use

18 these systems to find the natural or non19 synthetic alternatives. And if we give that

20 control up, we miss that opportunity to use

21 what is supposed to be this marketplace

22 incentive about finding those replacements to
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1 keep the number of synthetic materials down.

2 So, I think we are very interested

3 in tying that list of allowed synthetic

4 vitamins and minerals to FDA's 104.2 list with

5 annotations about what products qualify for

6 fortification and not just letting that list

7 be eligible for any food in organic, and it is

8 worth, yes, a second line to talk about infant

9 formula and to tie that to the 107.100 list.

10 The last think, quickly, I will

11 talk about is corn steep liquor. Food and

12 Water Watch supports the minority opinion that

13 it is synthetic. We think a key component of

14 that for our members and supporters who are

15 consumers is being able to explain how that

16 was decided. A widely-understood definition

17 is really a basic consumer expectation. So,

18 we think being able to explain that is

19 important. We think the minority opinion does

20 that well.

21 And we understand there are ripple

22 effects from decisions, and that making this
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1 synthetic might change other materials that

2 are already in the organic world. But we have

3 to, when we have these opportunities to set a

4 good precedent and make the right decision, we

5 think that has to be the decision that is made

6 because that is integrity ripple effect is

7 just as important as the work ripple effect.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Patty.

9 Jay?

10 MR. FELDMAN: Thanks, Patty.

11 On the nutrient vitamins and

12 minerals, what exactly is the proposal that

13 you are supporting? You mentioned 104.2 and

14 107 or 107.100. So, do you want those

15 specified in the annotation? Is that what you

16 are proposing?

17 MS. LOVERA: Whether the

18 annotations are coming from FDA's listing,

19 which for most fortification is --

20 MR. FELDMAN: So, you are asking

21 for that?

22 MS. LOVERA: Right. As opposed to
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1 just a list of what can be used, the list has

2 the annotation that says it can be used for

3 these products that are supposed to be or

4 qualify for fortification, and that infant

5 formula seems to be a different list. So,

6 let's have that as its own item to say we are

7 tying it to this list from FDA; this is what

8 is allowed.

9 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Colehour?

11 MR. BONDERA: So, you are here

12 from Food and Water Watch, right?

13 MS. LOVERA: Yes.

14 MR. BONDERA: I cannot remember

15 the name of the person who was up here a few

16 days ago. And I was racking my brain to try

17 to reformulate my question because I had to

18 remember it because my question by her was

19 postponed for when you were up here --

20 MS. LOVERA: Right.

21 MR. BONDERA: -- if I remember

22 correctly.
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1 Ahhhh.

2 (Laughter.)

3 So, my question specifically was

4 about ocean and organic farmed fish, and I

5 asked for, because she referred to the newest

6 information or recommendations that your

7 organization had on that topic, and she said

8 that I should ask you that when you were here.

9 And I think I have now asked you that, please.

10 MS. LOVERA: Okay. So, it was

11 actually Tyler Shannon, who is a guy, but I

12 won't tell him that. He's not here; he won't

13 know.

14 So, he was delivering a memo that

15 I think you all have now that we tried to

16 compile what we have seen since 2008 about two

17 main categories, escapes, environmental

18 impact, what we have learned about open-net

19 pens, and, then, also, what we have learned

20 about wild fish as feed.

21 So, that has been distributed to

22 you. It is fairly detailed. But, to
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1 summarize, the escapes piece is very -- we are

2 kind of always adding to our list or our file

3 of stories about escapes of farmed fish. And

4 you know, it is all over the world; it is not

5 one part of the world. It is Europe. It is

6 South America. It is the Mediterranean.

7 And, then, in terms of the wild

8 fish as feed, that is just a growing body of

9 study about the contaminants and things. So,

10 we tried to summarize some of those studies

11 and put the cites in there.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

13 MS. LOVERA: Thank you.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Alexis Randolph,

15 you're up.

16 Zea Sonnabend is standing by.

17 Zea, are you here?

18 MS. SONNABEND: Yes.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay.

20 MS. RANDOLPH: Good afternoon.

21 My name is Alexis Randolph, and my

22 comments are on behalf of QAI, an organic
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1 certification agency.

2 QAI supports the Materials and

3 Handling Committee's decision regarding the

4 classification of materials to return to the

5 2009 definition of chemical change. However,

6 QAI feels that defining a significant level of

7 a synthetic in the final material needs

8 further thought. QAI would like clarification

9 on what the final material refers to.

10 Yesterday the Committee discussed

11 the definition of technical and functional

12 effect, but QAI would still like further

13 clarification of the technical and functional

14 effect that the final material is, for

15 example, on a 605(a) material or the finished

16 product that the 605(a) material is going

17 into.

18 This written recommendation seems

19 to be implying the effect is on the material

20 being reviewed, but discussion yesterday

21 implied the finished organic product.

22 QAI would like to encourage the
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1 Board to prioritize the development of a

2 guidance document and to move the school

3 recommendation forward for implementation.

4 The Board as a whole has asked for input about

5 the oversight of material review programs and

6 has successfully identified the challenges of

7 such an undertaking.

8 The expeditious publication of

9 materials classification guidance to ensure

10 this Board, certifiers, and material review

11 institutes are being consistent when

12 determining synthetic versus non-synthetic

13 will be the first, and perhaps most important,

14 step in attaining the larger goal of uniform

15 and consistent material review.

16 Our comments regarding chlorine

17 are addressed to both the Crops and Handling

18 Committee. QAI supports the Handling

19 Committee recommendation for chlorine in

20 general, and we appreciate the Committee

21 acknowledging in their discussion yesterday

22 the critical change QAI feels need to be made
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1 in order to accommodate no-rinse sanitizers.

2 In addition to a potable rinse,

3 there are other methods for ensuring residual

4 chlorine is at or below the safe drinking

5 water level of 4 milligrams per liter. These

6 methods include, but are not limited to, a

7 product purge, a rinse with another approved

8 material on the National List, and testing for

9 residual chlorine.

10 We recommend that the annotation

11 be modified to require a potable rinse or

12 other intervening event that is verified

13 through testing.

14 QAI also supports the Crop

15 Committee's recommendation and requests the

16 annotation be amended to further clarify that

17 chlorine listed on 205.601 applies to pre18 harvest product contact only.

19 Furthermore, we would like to know

20 -- sorry, three minutes is stressing me out

21 (laughter) -- to implement either chlorine

22 annotation successfully as a certifier, it is
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1 necessary to define when the scope of an

2 operation changes from crops to handling.

3 Many certifiers currently issue a crop

4 certificate to operators who perform post5 harvest on-farm washing of produce. Other

6 certifiers, including QAI, define that

7 activity as post-harvest handling.

8 We would like to know how much

9 chlorine will be allowed for edible sprout

10 production. Even though sprout seeds are

11 discussed under Crop Section 205.204, in

12 reality, most sprout production takes place in

13 a processing facility or building located

14 adjacent to a farm.

15 If the NOSB cannot address these

16 conflicts of scope through annotation changes

17 alone --

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

19 MS. RANDOLPH: -- the QAI

20 respectfully requests you work with the NOP to

21 issue guidance that accompanies the National

22 List.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Alexis.

2 MS. RANDOLPH: Thank you.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Questions?

4 Katrina?

5 MS. HEINZE: Thank you for your

6 comments on our classification recommendation.

7 I could not agree with you more that we need

8 to move forward with guidance.

9 So, my question to you is, or I

10 guess a preface, the reason we brought the

11 significant question to a vote is we needed

12 Board direction on how to move forward. Do

13 you have any opposition to us passing it as

14 guidance, so that, then, we can move forward

15 to get the rest of the guidance completed?

16 MS. RANDOLPH: I don't have any

17 opposition if the guidance documents give

18 clear examples of types of materials where the

19 technical and functional effect are applying

20 to either the material being reviewed or the

21 final organic product being created that uses

22 that material.
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1 MS. HEINZE: I will write it down

2 right now.

3 MS. RANDOLPH: Okay.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other

5 questions? Jay and, then, Steve.

6 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you for your

7 comments.

8 I am trying to get a handle on the

9 scope issue that you mentioned with chlorine.

10 MS. RANDOLPH: Yes.

11 MR. FELDMAN: So, if you could

12 help me with that, I would appreciate it. So,

13 you are saying that any post-harvest handling

14 in the field is considered handling in your

15 world? Is that field? Because, as you know,

16 a lot of processing is happening in the field,

17 right? So, there is the pre-harvest that you

18 said the Crops Committee recommendation should

19 apply to. What kind of language would you --

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay, please repeat

21 your question for the record.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Okay. Sorry.
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1 You have distinguished between

2 pre-harvest and post-harvest.

3 MS. RANDOLPH: Yes.

4 MR. FELDMAN: If you could just

5 help explain that for me one more time?

6 MS. RANDOLPH: Sure. The majority

7 of post-harvest activity that we see at the

8 farm is actually adjacent to the field in a

9 shed-type environment, not necessarily always

10 a shed, but also, you know, a more

11 sophisticated facility environment, where they

12 are washing produce and applying, obviously,

13 chlorine into the wash water.

14 Some certifiers certify that

15 entire activity at that location as crops, and

16 QAI would certify that as two separate

17 certifications, the second one being post18 harvest handling as a handling standard. And

19 therefore, in that scenario the chlorine could

20 be used according to the new annotation at any

21 level, provided there is a potable rinse.

22 MR. FELDMAN: Is that common? I
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1 am just trying to get a sense of whether that

2 is industry-wide. Are you an exception? Or

3 are you the rule? How does it break out among

4 the certifiers? Do you know?

5 MS. RANDOLPH: I don't know --

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

7 MS. RANDOLPH: -- the percentages,

8 you know.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thanks. No

10 problem.

11 Miles has a --

12 MR. McEVOY: A point of

13 clarification from the program. This came up

14 during the ACA training in Portland this year

15 as an area where certifiers are looking at

16 post-harvest in different ways. The rule is

17 not clear in this particular area. So, you

18 have post-harvest materials like floatation

19 agents like sulfonate and sodium silicate that

20 are under the 601, and, then, most of the rest

21 of the handling materials are under 605.

22 So, this is an area that the
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1 program is working on providing clarification

2 to the certifiers and the organic community,

3 so that we are all on the same page. We

4 realize there are some distinctions. The

5 standards are still being met. It is just

6 that, where do you draw the line; what do you

7 call post-harvest handling?

8 MS. RANDOLPH: Can I just respond

9 to that really quickly?

10 We recognize that not all

11 materials are up for review at this time, and

12 therefore, not all materials would be getting

13 an annotation change. For example,

14 diatomaceous earth is another example of a

15 crop material that is allowed for pesticide

16 application in the crop environment, but not

17 once the grain moves to the post-harvest, to

18 the facility processing.

19 So, we just thought at this time

20 chlorine is an opportunity to clarify the

21 annotation, but if it is more appropriate to

22 allow the program to make that clarification
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1 on a larger scale, then we are fine with that

2 as well.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Thank you.

4 Jay, did that answer your

5 question, from the program?

6 MR. FELDMAN: I have a question

7 for the program.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay.

9 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, just quickly,

10 so in terms of the recommendation coming out

11 of the Crops Committee, Miles, what would that

12 apply to, the recommendation that is

13 currently? Because, as you know, as John

14 described yesterday, the recommendations

15 coming out of Handling and Crops are slightly

16 different. So, I was wondering what the Crops

17 Committee recommendation would apply to as you

18 are thinking about the rule.

19 MR. McEVOY: Well, we will be

20 providing clarification on this in the final

21 guidance that will be out shortly. So, I

22 would say we will take the recommendation from
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1 the Crops and Handling Committee about

2 chlorine into account for providing

3 clarification.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

5 MR. McEVOY: That didn't really

6 make any sense, did it?

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: It sounds like it

8 is to be determined.

9 Okay. Thank you very much.

10 Zea Sonnabend is up next, and

11 Susan Cheney is standing by.

12 MS. SONNABEND: Good afternoon.

13 I am Zea Sonnabend, Policy

14 Specialist and Organic Inspector for CCOF.

15 From 1994 to 1996, I was the

16 original contractor for the TAP reviews. So,

17 I can try to help if there is any questions

18 that arise from some of those very old TAP

19 reviews.

20 Since 1993, I have been standing

21 here commenting to this Board about the need

22 for thorough and scientifically-based
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1 materials review. To that end, we are very

2 grateful to see the materials classification

3 document finally coming to fruition, and we do

4 support the language that is now proposed and

5 hope you can get it through this meeting

6 because it will affect the whole certifier

7 community every day in making decisions for

8 materials.

9 It is also particularly important

10 that you have good review in considering

11 changes in the Sunset process because your own

12 Board Procedures Manual requires you to

13 consider the force of evidence of new

14 information that would contribute to any

15 change in Sunset. If you can't get a current

16 technical review on time, then please respect

17 the deliberations of the previous NOSB members

18 who heard lots and lots of public comment and

19 deliberated long and hard, not all of which is

20 captured in the transcripts of that time.

21 That being said, I want to point

22 out some flaws in the existing crops
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1 recommendations. The one for magnesium

2 sulfate has no technical report, no reasons or

3 evidence, or no assessment of commercial

4 availability for non-synthetic sources.

5 The pheromones one has a change of

6 annotation that is seriously flawed because

7 the passive dispenser language is currently in

8 the inert section, and limiting passive to

9 language for all inerts would thwart a lot of

10 new technologies with low environmental

11 footprint and apply a more strict standard to

12 pheromones than anything else on the list,

13 while pheromones are one of the safest

14 materials on the list. Please work with

15 inerts through the Inerts Working Group and

16 not through the pheromone annotation.

17 In doing a thorough review, it is

18 important for you each to be critical thinkers

19 when it comes to looking at the information

20 presented to you, and be aware that not all

21 statements made by everyone are supported by

22 evidence that backs them up.
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1 The TAP reviews should be read

2 carefully for what they say and what they do

3 not say. If I had been able to see the

4 technical report for tetracycline and

5 streptomycin before the written comment

6 period, I would have liked to challenge

7 several assertions that have been made to the

8 Board in there, but it was not posted on time

9 for me to incorporate it into my written

10 comments.

11 And I have three particular things

12 that I would like to challenge, which if I run

13 out of time, you can ask me afterwards. Other

14 people got the benefit of seeing it ahead of

15 time, and I did not.

16 For instance, the statement that

17 antibiotic use in pears and apples has been

18 linked to human pathogen resistance is not a

19 statement outright made in the technical

20 report. And I will go back and read the

21 paragraph to you later. It does specifically

22 say that, while we can surmise that this
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1 lateral transfer of resistance could occur,

2 the link between human pathogen resistance and

3 antibiotic use in apples and pears has not yet

4 --

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

6 MS. SONNABEND: -- been made.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

8 Any questions for Zea? Tina?

9 MS. ELLOR: Would you be willing

10 to share the other two with us, please?

11 (Laughter.)

12 MS. SONNABEND: Yes. Thank you.

13 I have one sentence on that one.

14 In the technical review, the EPA said they

15 will be reviewing this very issue, with their

16 review due to come in 2014. And so, I think

17 you should consider that if you consider a

18 compromise proposal to keep it going for a

19 short period of time.

20 Secondly, the assertion that

21 tetracycline can be taken up by apples and

22 found in the peel and core is not correct.
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1 The research was done for streptomycin which

2 could be taken up by apples, and it could be

3 present in the core at .0019 parts per

4 million.

5 But if you look at the technical

6 review carefully, you will see that the

7 tetracycline and the streptomycin behave very

8 differently in the environment. The

9 tetracycline gets into the soil and is bound

10 to the soil particles and is not that likely

11 to move. Yet, it degrades very quickly in the

12 sunlight. Plus, it is only applied at bloom

13 and is not present in the fruit.

14 So, this would lead us to think

15 that it stays in the soil and is not going to

16 be taken up by the trunk as fast. Yet, it

17 degrades in the light. And so, it is not

18 going to remain on the twigs and blossoms by

19 the time the fruit is set.

20 The streptomycin, on the other

21 hand, when it hits the soil, is fairly mobile,

22 and they have shown residues taken up by
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1 vegetables. And that is new research since

2 the last Sunset review of the material. And,

3 yet, it can be sprayed once the fruit is on

4 the tree post-infection, and therefore, it has

5 a much higher likelihood of being taken up by

6 the fruit. And you would have to determine

7 whether that level is relevant to your

8 deliberations for resistance.

9 The third point, the assertion

10 about resistance transfer in genes. I read

11 that paper that was cited a little while ago.

12 And while the concerns or information are

13 valid in hospital settings and population

14 settings where there is this horizontal

15 transfer happening all the time, and in nature

16 we cannot deny that such things are possible,

17 in actual practice, from that article it looks

18 to me like a sick person would have to go into

19 an orchard that had been sprayed with the

20 tetracycline and either ingest the soil or the

21 blooms repeatedly for the resistance factor to

22 transfer to humans.
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1 The resistance factor is very high

2 to the fire blight organization, which is what

3 is present in the field and what is being

4 targeted repeatedly, and so will have all of

5 that gene interaction that was discussed in

6 the article. But we are not there yet in

7 proving that it actually happens to transfer

8 to human pathogens.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

10 Lisa, what are we at right now on

11 our count? Okay.

12 Quick, please.

13 MS. SONNABEND: I know people

14 wanted to ask about pheromone technologies.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes, make it

16 brief, please.

17 MR. MARAVELL: You mentioned that

18 the language with regard to passive pheromone

19 dispensers could thwart new technology. Could

20 you expand on that and say what the new

21 technology is?

22 MS. SONNABEND: Okay. There are
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1 three relatively-new technologies I am aware

2 of. The first one is material that is like a

3 putty or a paste that is designed to be

4 applied to the tree trunks and/or phone poles,

5 or anything else, and is impregnated with

6 pheromones. That material is not designed to

7 be removed from the field. It is actually a

8 clay-based sort of material that will fall off

9 the trunk as it degrades and break down into

10 clay.

11 At our insistence, because they

12 were going to use it in our emergency spray

13 situation for the light brown apple moth, they

14 reformulated the product to have only List 4

15 inerts in it. So, it doesn't even need this

16 whole List 3 exemption thing. But under your

17 proposed annotation, that would be prohibited

18 because you cannot really define that as

19 passive. The definition of passive is

20 unclear.

21 Second, puffers. Puffers are

22 things that are in the field, a few per acre.
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1 They emit little puffs of pheromone. Over the

2 course of a season, they actually use less

3 pheromone and, therefore, less inert

4 ingredients than the twist ties do.

5 They have been reformulated. So,

6 some brands are available that are only List

7 4. Unclear whether that is passive because it

8 does push it out, but, then, it does

9 volatilize.

10 And the third one is a product.

11 It is called microflake, disruption

12 microflake. And it is a laminated polymer

13 sandwich or flake that is about one-eighth14 inch square with the pheromone between two

15 layers of inert polymer that they say

16 biodegrades.

17 We have not approved, let me say

18 that we have not approved this for use in

19 organic farming, because the question of what

20 it biodegrades into is completely unclear, and

21 it does not include any List 3. It is only

22 List 4's. But it is in this polymer matrix
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1 that is very unclear where that falls in the

2 organic regulation.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

4 MS. SONNABEND: So, we have not

5 approved it.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

7 much.

8 We really do need to keep moving

9 out of fairness of everyone that is signed up

10 today.

11 MR. FELDMAN: Can't she get a few

12 minutes for every year of service to the

13 organic community?

14 (Laughter.)

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We would be here a

16 lot of minutes today.

17 (Laughter.)

18 Susan Cheney is up next. Andrew

19 Wilcox is standing by.

20 MS. CHENEY: Hello. Susan Cheney

21 with Martek Biosciences.

22 Martek supports the continued use
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1 of vitamins, minerals, and accessory nutrients

2 in organic foods, and we appreciate the work

3 the Handling Committee is doing to fully

4 evaluate the information and comments that

5 have been provided on this topic, so that they

6 can develop an annotation that takes into

7 account the 1995 Board recommendation and

8 continue to protect the integrity of organics.

9 Based on the Board's discussions,

10 and particularly some of the comments, it is

11 apparent that the fortification annotation

12 question involves many different viewpoints

13 and opinions. We have supported the original

14 Committee recommendation to replace the flawed

15 annotation with one that tracks the FDA's

16 approach on fortification, and we have also

17 supported the postponement until the fall to

18 allow the Committee to fully review the record

19 on that proposal.

20 Yesterday's suggestion to sunset

21 the flawed annotation by not voting it in

22 again, but to leave the category of vitamins
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1 and minerals intact and add new annotation

2 language in the fall, appears to be a good

3 compromise. The NOP's clarification of how

4 that would work seems to be reasonable and

5 acceptable as well.

6 Separate from the fortification

7 question, several erroneous statements have

8 been made about Martek's DHA and ARA,

9 materials that were petitioned last summer and

10 will be reviewed at the fall NOSB meeting.

11 Let me give you a quick statement of the

12 facts.

13 DHA and ARA are safe. They have

14 been evaluated for more than 15 years in over

15 200 preclinical and human clinical studies,

16 including studies with infants.

17 FDA and regulatory agencies

18 worldwide have reviewed the safety of our

19 products on numerous occasions, and all have

20 agreed that these ingredients are safe for use

21 in infant formula, foods, beverages, and

22 supplements.
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1 Our DHA and ARA are products of

2 fermentation, a natural biological process

3 which provides a non-genetically-modified,

4 sustainable vegetarian and allergen-free

5 source of DHA and ARA.

6 Lastly, the health benefits of our

7 materials is continually being recognized on

8 a global basis, as is evidenced by the

9 European Parliament approving a visual

10 development claim for DHA earlier this month,

11 and the European Food Safety Authority

12 recommending several health and nutrient

13 content claims relating to DHA last fall.

14 We look forward to working with

15 you during our petition review and trusting

16 your ability to separate fact from fiction and

17 complete a fair and objective review of our

18 materials over the next few months.

19 Thank you.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions?

21 Steve and, then, Jay. Anyone else? Okay. Go

22 ahead.
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1 MR. DeMURI: Are you aware of any

2 studies or data regarding allergic reactions

3 to your ARA or DHA?

4 MS. CHENEY: Completely unaware of

5 any.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay?

7 MR. FELDMAN: So, just to be

8 clear, you are good with subjecting your

9 products to full review outside of the

10 mineral, nutrients, and supplement category?

11 Or I always get it wrong. Vitamin, mineral,

12 and nutrients, is that right? Close enough.

13 MS. CHENEY: I understand.

14 We are. Based on the meeting last

15 April, it was very clear that these materials

16 would have to be petitioned. We left the

17 meeting -- I'm sorry. What did I say?

18 Okay. Yes, we are.

19 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you.

20 Thank you. Thank you.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

22 much.
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1 MS. CHENEY: Thank you.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Andrew Wilcox is

3 up next. Beth Robinette is standing by.

4 MR. WILCOX: Hi. My name is Andy

5 Wilcox. I am an egg farmer from Roy,

6 Washington, approximately 60 miles south of

7 here.

8 We support the new livestock

9 standards for egg layers. Since 2005, we have

10 been letting our birds go outside. We really

11 haven't seen any issues.

12 We understand there is more risk

13 as far as disease, and it is tougher for

14 biosecurity, but we have put that into our

15 cost of production and done as much measures

16 as we can to prevent those types of issues.

17 The only area, we have started

18 building our buildings at the five square foot

19 per thousand. And actually, the cooler

20 weather and the cooler temperatures haven't

21 been a problem. The toughest with that square

22 foot is the higher temperatures. When you are
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1 at 85 or 90 degrees, the ventilation systems

2 that you are trying to design, it is really

3 tough when you have that much opening space.

4 So, it has been very viable, except for at

5 those really upper temperatures above 85

6 degrees.

7 The one area we do have a concern

8 on the standards is the pullets. We

9 vaccinate, like others, at between 12 and 14

10 weeks. And what we have seen, and I

11 understand the reasoning is that you are

12 encouraging the birds to go outside if they

13 are pullets and such, what we have seen is, as

14 long as we are getting the birds outside

15 between 20 and 25 weeks of age, they are

16 learning; it takes about two to three weeks.

17 The birds learn to go outside, and they are

18 fully utilizing the paddocks or the outside

19 access.

20 That's it.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

22 much.
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1 Any questions for Mr. Wilcox?

2 Wendy?

3 MS. FULWIDER: What age would you

4 support sending birds outdoors?

5 MR. WILCOX: At 24 weeks. Like I

6 said, between 20 and 25 weeks is what we

7 practice on our farm.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac?

9 MR. STONE: Is it NPIP that kind

10 of regulates some of the vaccine schedules or

11 some other agency or group?

12 MR. WILCOX: Generally, there is

13 not necessarily an agency. We just utilize

14 the advice of our veterinarians. And you

15 know, there are certain ages. You have

16 multiple vaccines that you have to utilize.

17 And so, we are just going off the advice of

18 our veterinarian at those ages.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

20 Beth Robinette is up next. Howard

21 Koozer is standing by.

22 MS. BETH ROBINETTE: My name is
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1 Beth Robinette, and I am a fourth-generation

2 cattle rancher.

3 I am here today to ask you to

4 stand in solidarity with farmers and ranchers

5 who face the imminent threat that GMOs face to

6 producers.

7 As a young person in agriculture,

8 the proliferation of the organic standard has

9 been a beacon of hope. It has convinced me

10 that an ever-growing segment of consumers is

11 seeking food that is grown in a way that is

12 respectful to the earth. I want nothing more

13 than to produce wholesome food for my

14 community and be a steward of my land.

15 Everything we do on our ranch is

16 with an eye toward transparency and the health

17 of our animals, the earth, and our customers.

18 But the threat of GMOs could bring all that

19 crashing down.

20 As I am sure most of you are

21 aware, the scientific testing of the

22 environmental and human safety of GMOs has
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1 been anything but rigorous, not to mention the

2 food security threat that is inevitable when

3 a small handful of corporations own the

4 intellectual property contained within the

5 majority of food grown in this country.

6 Many of my customers buy our beef

7 because I can guarantee them that our animals

8 never consume any genetically-modified

9 organisms. With the release of Roundup Ready

10 alfalfa, it will be extremely difficult to

11 guarantee that to my customers any longer. At

12 some point, the risk of contamination will

13 become inevitable.

14 Our ranch has recently begun the

15 process of organic certification as a way to

16 communicate to our customers that our beef is

17 raised according to certain standards of

18 animal and human well-being. Being GMO-free

19 is a large part of that.

20 Soon I fear I will have to face my

21 customers in the spirit of transparency and

22 confess to them that we can no longer provide
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1 them with food that I can morally stand behind

2 100 percent.

3 As others have stated before me,

4 and I am sure as many will hereafter, co5 existence with GMOs is not possible. There is

6 no way for me to prevent GMOs from

7 contaminating my fields. If nothing is done,

8 then very soon no farmer or rancher who grows

9 alfalfa can make a claim that their crops are

10 GMO-free.

11 In an effort to protect organic

12 producers, the NOSB has stated that GMOs will

13 be allowed in organic food as long as they are

14 the result of contamination and not

15 intentional introduction. This erodes the

16 meaning of the word "organic".

17 If no one stands up to the

18 corporations that release these biological

19 weapons of capital domination into the

20 environment, eventually, the contamination

21 will become so prevalent that consumers can no

22 longer trust the organic label.
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1 That is why I am asking the Board

2 to craft a letter to Secretary Vilsack and

3 President Obama asking that the decision on

4 Roundup Ready alfalfa be rescinded.

5 I also ask that the Board support

6 the labeling of any products that contain

7 GMOs, whether they be conventional or organic.

8 Farmers and ranchers have been robbed of their

9 choice to decide whether or not they will grow

10 GMOs on their land. Don't allow the same fate

11 to fall on consumers.

12 (Applause.)

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

14 much, Ms. Robinette.

15 Any questions? Jay Feldman?

16 MR. FELDMAN: Do you grow alfalfa?

17 MS. BETH ROBINETTE: Yes. We

18 don't sell hay. We just grow a small amount

19 of hay, and, obviously, our cattle graze on

20 pasture. We do grass-fed beef.

21 MR. FELDMAN: How do you do that

22 without GMO alfalfa?
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1 MS. BETH ROBINETTE: Well, it is a

2 little-known fact that over 90 percent of the

3 alfalfa grown in this country does not require

4 any pesticides to be grown.

5 MR. FELDMAN: I knew that. Thank

6 you.

7 (Laughter.)

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other

9 questions?

10 MS. BETH ROBINETTE: Can I quickly

11 mention that former Board Member Jennifer Hall

12 has already stated that she would gladly

13 support such a letter and would sign it.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

15 Howard Koozer is up next.

16 Elizabeth Fry is standing by.

17 MR. KOOZER: Good afternoon.

18 I am Howard Koozer. I have a

19 moderate-sized organic chicken egg farm a

20 little ways north of here.

21 The issue we have is with regard

22 to the guidelines requiring the pullets to
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1 have outdoor access. And there are three

2 primary reasons.

3 One, the first reason, which

4 really was the first one to come to mind when

5 we were designing our layout, is that one of

6 the big challenges is to get the body weights

7 of the bird to the target weight for beginning

8 of lay by the time, the age they need to be

9 transferred.

10 So, in order to keep them from

11 going into lay too early, they developed, they

12 are utilizing a natural part of the chicken's

13 repertoire in the wild, and when the birds

14 grow up during the fall when the day length is

15 decreasing. When they become adults, they

16 don't start laying eggs for reproduction

17 because they can't successfully produce brood.

18 So, we utilize that part of their

19 genetic repertoire to keep them from going

20 into lay while their body weight is too low.

21 You decrease the amount of light they have

22 incrementally, so that they think that it is
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1 fall. And so, they don't start laying eggs

2 before their bodies are mature enough to

3 support it successfully.

4 Then, the next reason that is

5 quite important is the vaccination program is

6 not complete. In our program, the last

7 vaccination takes place at 14 weeks of age,

8 and it takes a few weeks for the immune system

9 to fully respond to each vaccination.

10 Some of the vaccinations are

11 incremental. There is one of them that is

12 done in three steps, and the last one is

13 combined with one that is just a single.

14 So, to put them outside when their

15 immunity is immature is risky to the welfare

16 of the bird as well the welfare of the farmer,

17 who has got a large investment in them.

18 So, the population-at-large is

19 more concerned with the welfare of the bird,

20 and it is no less the concern of the producer.

21 However, he also has to be worried about

22 staying in business.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

2 much.

3 MR. KOOZER: Any questions?

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wendy?

5 MS. FULWIDER: So, what age do you

6 support outdoor access?

7 MR. KOOZER: We put our birds into

8 the adult production rooms at the age of 18

9 weeks. And at that point, they have access to

10 the outdoors, weather permitting.

11 The birds that are put out into

12 these lay barns, at that point in time, take

13 about a week to learn go out. Significant

14 numbers of the birds are going out in one

15 week.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac?

17 MR. KOOZER: And as far as nest

18 training, the only thing that is necessary is

19 just wait until early afternoon, after they

20 are done laying, open the doors, and they are

21 okay. So, that is not an argument.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac?
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1 MR. STONE: What season do you and

2 other pullet producers shoot for? Or is there

3 a year-round pullet production? What is the

4 seasonality of your all's operation?

5 MR. KOOZER: In my operation, we

6 have six production clocks, and they are in

7 10-week age steps. So, every 10 weeks, we get

8 a group of babies. Then, after 10 weeks, they

9 get moved from the brooder rooms to the pullet

10 rooms. And, then, in another nine to ten

11 weeks, we put them into the production rooms.

12 So, it is continuous all year long.

13 MR. STONE: So, that is why the

14 light management is critical to --

15 MR. KOOZER: Yes.

16 MR. STONE: -- development at

17 those various stages --

18 MR. KOOZER: Right.

19 MR. STONE: -- depending on the

20 time of year?

21 MR. KOOZER: And so, letting them

22 out with the light pattern makes it very
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1 difficult.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

3 Any other questions?

4 (No response.)

5 All right.

6 MR. KOOZER: Thank you.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Elizabeth Fry,

8 you're up next. Cathy Franck is standing by.

9 MS. FRY: Logistics. There we

10 are.

11 I am Liz Fry. I am the Whole

12 Foods Market Quality Standards Coordinator for

13 Animal Products. I have been working on

14 animal welfare standards for almost nine

15 years.

16 In the preamble to the proposed

17 animal welfare standards, it states that you

18 seek to make these standards the gold

19 standard. Whole Foods Market agrees with this

20 goal. The incredible amount of work that the

21 Livestock Committee has done is a huge step in

22 this direction.
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1 From listening to our shoppers who

2 are looking for the best food for their

3 families, we know the prevalent belief is that

4 organic certification is already the gold

5 standard when it comes to animal welfare.

6 We believe that the standards

7 should coincide with consumer expectations.

8 Especially with emerging transparency into

9 animal production systems, it is essential

10 that the national organic standards truly

11 impact the welfare of farm animals.

12 Whole Foods Market has recently

13 launched the Global Animal Partnership Five14 Step Animal Welfare Rating, which is an animal

15 welfare program that rates farms according to

16 welfare practices to six different levels.

17 With the level of transparency

18 this program provides, the customers'

19 assumptions about animal welfare practices

20 will be supported or not. This is the first,

21 but judging from the enthusiastic consumer

22 response, will not be the last program of its
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1 type.

2 The most frequently-asked question

3 in the area where we have had this program

4 rolled out the longest is, why is the organic

5 chicken in these particular stores only a Step

6 Two? And our answer to that up to this point

7 has been because the organic standards are

8 looking at inputs and surroundings rather than

9 animal welfare; these standards focus

10 specifically on animal welfare.

11 We believe that the current

12 proposed standards are too general. Laying

13 hens and broilers have different welfare

14 needs. Under the proposed standards, beef

15 cattle welfare is addressed by the same

16 standards as dairy cattle, but the two types

17 of cattle are raised in very different

18 environments and have very different welfare

19 issues and different needs.

20 There are different types of

21 animal production that should be included in

22 the standards. Each of these types of
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1 production should be identified with different

2 standards that will provide transparency to

3 the consumer.

4 On Tuesday, we heard Matt O'Hare

5 point out that two square feet of outdoor

6 space is insufficient for laying hens on

7 pasture. Two square feet is appropriate for

8 outdoor access from an indoor system. But,

9 yet, there are no standards for what a pasture

10 system should look like.

11 We heard Ashley Swaffar talk about

12 the problem that transport time limits don't

13 pertain to poultry, and they don't even

14 pertain to, you know, they are not exactly

15 right for all the mammals. Twelve hours is

16 not right for everybody.

17 Different types of production

18 require different standards. Different

19 species require different standards. And the

20 same species bred for different purposes

21 require different standards.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.
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1 MS. FRY: These complexities need

2 to be considered in the developing standards

3 for animal welfare, so they are clear and so

4 there are not more loopholes created by

5 lumping very different animals and situation

6 into the same overarching set of principles.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Liz.

8 Any questions? We will start with

9 Nick, and, then, Jay.

10 MR. MARAVELL: I have seen the

11 Whole Foods stratification on animal welfare,

12 but I don't recall, do you manage to do what

13 you are asking us to do, which is to look at

14 species-by-species type of production and,

15 then, final product? You are able to sort

16 that through and make different standards, if

17 you will, or different criteria for the

18 different classifications?

19 MS. FRY: Yes, the different step

20 levels are focused on different types of

21 production systems, and there is a set of

22 standards. Right now, the Global Animal
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1 Partnership, they are not Whole Foods

2 standards. Global Animal Partnership

3 standards are finished for three species, and

4 they are working on standards for other

5 species, but, yes, essentially.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay?

7 MR. FELDMAN: I think my question

8 was the same. I am trying to get at how you

9 operationalize the standards in your buying

10 practices, which is I think a similar

11 question, so that you are adhering to these

12 global standards, these global international

13 standards, and you are applying those to your

14 purchasing decisions when you go out and

15 source the product. You are currently

16 applying those standards?

17 MS. FRY: Currently applying the

18 standards for beef, chicken, and pork because

19 those are the only ones finished.

20 MR. FELDMAN: And are you having

21 trouble applying those standards?

22 MS. FRY: What Whole Foods did was
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1 they asked all of the current producers to

2 become certified to the Global Animal

3 Partnership Program. They gave them a year of

4 lead time. 

5 And the producers have stepped up

6 to the plate. There was a little bit of

7 resistance initially because of cost. I have

8 heard a lot of concerns about cost. There

9 have been concerns that we would lose

10 producers. I have heard that concern voiced,

11 too.

12 But what we have found is that the

13 producers step up to the plate. The producers

14 have been much more innovative than we

15 expected, and they have come up with novel

16 ways of producing animals. They have changed

17 their practices, and it has been quite

18 effective.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

20 Cathy Franck, you're up. Steven

21 Moore is standing by.

22 MS. FRANCK: Hi. My name is Cathy
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1 Franck, and I sell real estate for my

2 livelihood, but I try to eat daily and I am

3 very concerned about our nation's food supply,

4 so concerned I have created a consumer5 oriented project called the Real Food Watch

6 Club Biodiversity Project.

7 I have owned a farm, but was so

8 busy with work, I didn't farm that

9 extensively.

10 The Real Food Watch Club's main

11 concern is GMOs that reproduce or in some way

12 spread their DNA in the open environment. The

13 only federal GMO-free label we have in this

14 country is the USDA certified organic label.

15 You all have an awesome task, and

16 this a complex puzzle. My hope is that you

17 keep the program logical for the farmers, so

18 they do not get frustrated or discouraged with

19 the program.

20 We consumers want to see more

21 organic labels, not fewer. When you remove or

22 restrict an existing material, tool, or
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1 practice method from the program, for that one

2 farmer you find whose livelihood depends on

3 that material or practice usage, can he or she

4 be grandfathered in to continue that practice

5 until he or she is able to successfully

6 replace that practice with an alternate

7 acceptable method or material?

8 Is there a way that you can

9 educate him or her in alternate methods? And

10 is there a way you can look to the European or

11 even Canadian models for guidance, if you have

12 a need to change the program?

13 From a consumer choice standpoint,

14 I recommend keep it simple. Advanced organic

15 buyers understand the range of farming

16 philosophies, but, in general, parents want

17 healthy food for their kids; people want

18 healthy food for themselves and loved ones.

19 The target market should be huge.

20 Keep the consumers in mind. We want organic

21 and more of it. Though we are very educated

22 in label reading, we are still at our core
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1 simple people and gratefully buy organic for

2 simple reasons. No synthetic pesticides,

3 herbicides, and fungicides, and we understand

4 that there are limited exceptions. No sewage

5 sludge. No irradiation, and no GMOs.

6 Thank you all for your work in

7 protecting this label, keeping it simple for

8 the farmers who, for whatever reason, choose

9 to produce such healthy food and carrying the

10 torch forward this label, so we can eat food

11 with genetic makeup as Nature created and

12 intended.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

14 much.

15 Steve?

16 MR. DeMURI: So, from a consumer

17 standpoint, would you support mandated GMO

18 testing of organic products?

19 MS. FRANCK: That is a question I

20 haven't really totally thought through. I

21 will get back with you on an answer for that.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Fair enough.
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1 Nick?

2 MR. MARAVELL: From the consumer

3 standpoint, you said that keep it simple, no

4 synthetics, but with limited exceptions. How

5 do you feel that is understood by the

6 consumers that are buying organic products?

7 Do you think that is how they view it, no

8 synthetics, but limited exceptions? How well9 known is that, I guess is what I am getting

10 at. Just your opinion.

11 MS. FRANCK: Well, I can only

12 speak for myself and people I talk to, but we

13 understand there are exceptions.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

15 John Foster?

16 MR. FOSTER: Hi. You had kind of

17 used air quotes there --

18 MS. FRANCK: Yes, yes.

19 MR. FOSTER: -- earlier, early on,

20 where I believe you quoted GMO-free. And so,

21 I wonder if you could clarify what the air

22 quotes meant specifically.
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1 MS. FRANCK: On that, it is just

2 that is what I had in my paper. Okay? I just

3 had that written down.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MR. FOSTER: Okay. So, that was --

6 okay.

7 MS. FRANCK: So, it didn't mean --

8 MR. FOSTER: Okay.

9 MS. FRANCK: -- but it could. But

10 it could.

11 (Laughter.)

12 MR. FOSTER: Right. I guess maybe

13 I was reading too much into it, then, because

14 that is a hard term, as you obviously know.

15 MS. FRANCK: We understand, well,

16 I understand there is an issue, yes, but it

17 wasn't for that. Yes.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

19 Steven Moore, you're up next. Is

20 Steven Moore in the audience?

21 (No response.)

22 No? Okay.
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1 Gwendolyn Wyard, you are up next.

2 Eli Penberthy is standing by.

3 Go ahead, Gwendolyn.

4 MS. WYARD: All right. Good

5 afternoon.

6 My name is Gwendolyn Wyard. I an

7 the Associate Director of Organic Standards

8 with the Organic Trade Association. I also

9 co-chaired the Materials Working Group with

10 Kim Dietz.

11 OTA's complete and detailed

12 comments were submitted in writing. Today I

13 will highlight several points on multiple

14 topics.

15 OTA supports the recommended

16 definition of chemical change, and we support

17 separate guidance documents for crop,

18 livestock, and handling.

19 In regards to significant and

20 insignificant, we support the direction of the

21 majority to base allowable levels on

22 applicable regulatory limits and the lack of
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1 a technical or functional effect in the final

2 product. This was the language originally

3 recommended by the 2005 NOSB. It was

4 incorporated into the 2006 NOP framework

5 document and, then, supported by the Material

6 Working Group in their 2009 presentation.

7 OTA requests the NOSB pass the

8 recommendation and, then, provide further

9 guidance by detailing the applicable

10 regulatory agencies and examples of limits

11 that would be used for crops, livestock, and

12 handling.

13 Corn steep liquor. OTA urges this

14 Board to respect and support the decision of

15 the 1995 Board and their classification of

16 cornstarch as non-synthetic. Corn steep

17 liquor is produced using the same process as

18 cornstarch.

19 And in 1995, Dr. Richard Theuer

20 and his Committee asked the same questions

21 that are being asked today: does the process

22 chemically change the cornstarch? And does a
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1 significant amount of SO2 remain in the

2 cornstarch? The answers were no and no, and

3 the same applies to corn steep liquor.

4 OTA is pleased that we do not

5 observe anyone arguing the classification

6 criteria per se. Instead, we observe a

7 difference in scientific opinion. It is

8 extremely complicated. Therefore, OTA

9 supports your choice as an individual Board

10 member to abstain if you are not ready to

11 vote.

12 Nutrient vitamins and minerals.

13 OTA supports a Committee vote to retain

14 nutrient vitamins and minerals with the

15 current annotation. And we thank the

16 Committee for recognizing this first and very

17 important step.

18 While we understand the concerns

19 of adopting a new annotation at this meeting,

20 we prefer and encourage a second vote to adopt

21 OTA's clarified annotation referencing

22 specific CFRs. The annotation is certifiable
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1 and enforceable and has received broad support

2 at this meeting.

3 Crops. Three take-home messages.

4 NOSB decisions need to be scale-neutral. The

5 National Organic Program is a globally-applied

6 standard, and neither an operation's location

7 nor its size should be a factor when deciding

8 the essentiality or fate of a material.

9 Decisions should not be made in

10 the interest of reducing the number of

11 materials used in organic production. Growers

12 rely on the NOSB to make decisions that are

13 based on factual evidence and a thorough

14 evaluation to all of the criteria for organic

15 materials review. If a viable alternative is

16 not commercially-tested and available, a

17 material should not sunset.

18 NOSB recommendations need to be

19 based on the force of evidence. If new

20 information is needed and a technical review

21 is not received, the Committee should not

22 recommend the removal of a material.
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you,

2 Gwendolyn.

3 MS. WYARD: Thank you very much.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

5 Any questions for Gwendolyn Wyard?

6 Okay, let's start with John and, then, Jay.

7 MR. FOSTER: On the ever-popular

8 corn steep liquor discussion, when you said

9 something about differing scientific opinion,

10 could you clarify that or at least get more

11 specific about what you meant by that?

12 MS. WYARD: Absolutely. So, one

13 thing that has been really encouraging, I

14 think a great thing that is coming out of the

15 discussion is that what I see in both the

16 minority and the majority is everybody is

17 asking the questions that are in the

18 classification document as far as the criteria

19 for determining synthetic and non-synthetic.

20 The difference of opinion, the

21 main differences of opinion that have been

22 discussed today have been between Dragan
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1 Macura and Dr. David Johnston from ARS, the

2 ARS researchers that have been referred to.

3 But there are also other scientists that are

4 involved.

5 And I get concerned because a lot

6 of the discussion has been about whether or

7 not the scientists have a horse in the race.

8 I think that, based on the research that I

9 did, that Dr. David Johnston, he holds a

10 patent in enzymatic process for corn wet

11 milling. I think that Dr. Johnston also has

12 a horse in the race. But I also know of

13 another individual, a very well-respected

14 scientist, that doesn't necessarily have a

15 horse in the race, but he has certainly been

16 going to the horse races and he understands

17 the context extremely well.

18 (Laughter.)

19 I would say that he doesn't even

20 have a nickel to gain. That would be Dr.

21 Richard Theuer.

22 Thank you.
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1 He was the TAP reviewer in 1995.

2 He knows the process very well, and he has

3 submitted multiple comments on corn steep

4 liquor. And he has determined corn steep

5 liquor to be non-synthetic.

6 So, I think if there is a

7 scientific opinion out there that has weighed8 in on this, Richard Theuer would be a great

9 one to focus on, and his determination focuses

10 on corn steep liquor and the chemical change

11 has not occurred in the corn steep liquor.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Thank you.

13 MS. WYARD: Thank you. Yes.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: All right. Can

15 you make it brief, Jay? We are overtime.

16 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. Thanks, Gwen.

17 You have mentioned Theuer now.

18 You have impugned the reputation of David

19 Johnston. So, I am wondering what the

20 reputation of OMRI is and why, you know, the

21 new Board members should know and have your

22 explanation for this because this is critical.
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1 OMRI, who we rely on as a community --

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: What is your

3 question?

4 MR. FELDMAN: -- has a 10-member

5 Board, a Technical Advisory Board that reviews

6 all these materials, and seven of three --

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Please ask your

8 question. NOSB members, please ask your

9 question.

10 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Why do we not

11 hear your critique of the OMRI decision and

12 history on the corn steep liquor decision,

13 which was very strong, extremely strong and

14 technical? Why does that not come up in your

15 analysis?

16 MS. WYARD: It didn't come up in

17 this analysis. It could come up. I would be

18 more than happy to do that.

19 MR. FELDMAN: But you are telling

20 us we should rely on Richard Theur; whereas,

21 the entity, the institution this community

22 relies on for technical information, it just
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1 seems --

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay, you have

3 asked your --

4 MR. FELDMAN: It just seems like

5 you are leaving that out.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Let her

7 answer. Jay?

8 MR. FELDMAN: I am trying to

9 figure out why you are leaving that out.

10 MS. WYARD: I did not --

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Let her answer

12 your question, please. Okay? Let's not

13 badger the public and let them answer the

14 questions we ask.

15 MS. WYARD: Again, it comes down

16 to scientific opinions. I would really need

17 OMRI to speak for their decision that they

18 made. I believe that their decision came down

19 to whether or not there was a change in

20 functional properties, and I would have to go

21 back and reexamine that.

22 But I did choose to focus on
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1 Richard Theuer primarily because, again, I

2 want us to respect the decision of a past NOSB

3 Board. And I think that Richard was an

4 appropriate person to look at because the

5 Board had already made a determination that

6 cornstarch is non-synthetic. And I think that

7 that was the area I chose to focus.

8 And I would have to ask OMRI to

9 discuss their determinations. I am aware of

10 them, but I am not prepared to go into them in

11 detail.

12 Thank you.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Thanks very

14 much.

15 Next up is Eli Penberthy or

16 "Ellie" Penberthy. John Ashby is standing by.

17 MS. PENBERTHY: Hi. My name is

18 Eli Penberthy, and I am here speaking as a

19 consumer as well as the seafood advisor at PCC

20 Natural Markets here in Seattle.

21 The Board's recommendation to

22 certify farmed fish is flawed as written and
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1 must be revised. The marine feedlots of open

2 ocean aquaculture violate fundamental organic

3 principles. I ask you to revise the

4 recommendation, so that only vegetarian

5 species in closed land-based systems may be

6 certified organic.

7 Carnivorous fish, such as salmon,

8 tuna, cod, and halibut, raised on pellets made

9 from wild fish must not be eligible to be

10 certified organic. The dioxins, PCBs, and

11 other contaminants concentrated in the feed

12 are passed along to consumers. The

13 Environmental Working Group found farmed

14 salmon have 16 times more PCBs than wild

15 salmon.

16 The Board's recommendation for

17 farmed salmon would allow up to 25 percent of

18 the feed to be wild-caught fish. This

19 violates the principle that organic animals

20 must be raised on 100 percent organic feed.

21 It also results in an unsustainable loss of

22 protein. To add a pound of weight to farmed
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1 salmon requires three to nine pounds of small

2 fish. Cod, halibut, tuna, and other

3 carnivorous species may need up to 15 to 20

4 pounds.

5 One-third of the ocean's harvest

6 is herring, anchovies, mackerel, and other

7 small fish which are made into fish meal and

8 oil for fattening farmed fish and animals.

9 The aquaculture industry already uses more

10 than half of the world's fish meal and more

11 than 80 percent of the fish oil. This is

12 simply unsustainable and violates the core

13 organic principle to restore, maintain, and

14 enhance ecological harmony and balance natural

15 systems.

16 Floating feedlots endanger native

17 marine species, flushing unfiltered fish waste

18 into the environment, while sea lice and other

19 parasites and diseases are rampant and linked

20 to die-offs of juvenile wild salmon and other

21 fish. Sea lice are showing resistance to

22 chemical pesticide treatments.
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1 Confining migratory wild fish with

2 strong instinctual drives, such as salmon, in

3 cages prevents them from exercising their

4 natural behaviors, violating another core

5 organic principle.

6 Current recommendations are too

7 broad and should not automatically include all

8 species. They fail to meet the high standards

9 that organic consumers expect. A better

10 approach would be to consider for

11 certification closed land-based systems that

12 recirculate water, collect waste for

13 fertilizer, can provide organic feed for

14 vegetarian fish, and do not threaten wild

15 stocks. Catfish and tilapia would be a good

16 place to start.

17 I also brought copies of PCC's

18 newsletter, "The Sound Consumer", and the

19 cover story this month is about organic

20 aquaculture, the question of whether it is

21 feasible.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Ms.
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1 Penberthy.

2 Any questions?

3 (No response.)

4 John Ashby is up next, and, then,

5 we will go to a short break.

6 MR. ASHBY: I am John Ashby with

7 California Natural Products.

8 Last time I gave comments, I gave

9 them in the form of haiku, and I got so much

10 grief for it that I swore I would never do it

11 again.

12 (Laughter.)

13 But I figure the iambic pentameter

14 format of the Elizabethan sonnet, that should

15 be safe.

16 (Laughter.)

17 Hence, what silicon through yonder

18 window doth flow? In our mortal lives, we

19 aren't always able to sagaciously ferret the

20 fact from the fable. To make a powder seems

21 simple enough, though to make a powder, you

22 must make it flow.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 I've been making powders for 20

3 years more. The one biggest fear is that it

4 won't pour.

5 (Laughter.)

6 A powder food maker has three

7 tools in their kit. There's fiber and silicon

8 and calcium; that's it.

9 (Laughter.)

10 There's so many forms of these

11 three simple types. Sometimes one works;

12 sometimes others. You need them all. Yipes!

13 (Laughter.)

14 One thing ain't the answer. That

15 never will work. To think otherwise is to

16 just be a -- unknowledgeable product

17 developer.

18 (Laughter.)

19 The petitioner's item is rice

20 hulls. Yahoo! C&P is rice. But it's 70

21 percent fiber, 17 silicon, that's true. It's

22 fiber, not mineral. So, what will it do?
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1 Will work in some cases; in others, no, no.

2 Alas, though a fiber just isn't a

3 rock, it acts like a fiber, not silicon.

4 What? Shocked?

5 It don't defoam liquids because it

6 ain't SIO2. It acts like a fiber. The foam,

7 it won't do.

8 Without having silicon, my solids

9 will stick. I'll be out of business. I can't

10 sell a brick.

11 (Laughter.)

12 A fiber won't do it. Don't know

13 other tricks. Need silicon dioxide, so my

14 powders don't stick.

15 (Applause.)

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

17 Katrina?

18 MS. HEINZE: I get one off-the19 cuff one. Do you teach that as a skill?

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. ASHBY: I'm not sure. Okay?

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: All right. Thank
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1 you very much.

2 We will take a 10-minute break.

3 Five minutes after the hour, please, Board

4 members.

5 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

6 went off the record at 2:56 p.m. and resumed

7 at 3:13 p.m.)

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We're back in

9 session.

10 Next up is Dave Martinelli. Dave,

11 are you in the room?

12 MR. MARTINELLI: Here.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

14 Brynn Arborico, you are standing

15 by. Brynn, are you in the room?

16 MS. BRYNN ARBORICO: I am.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

18 Go ahead, Mr. Martinelli.

19 MR. MARTINELLI: Dave Martinelli,

20 Coleman Natural Foods.

21 I want to thank Madam Chair for

22 allowing a break between John Ashby and I. He
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1 would be a tough act to follow.

2 (Laughter.)

3 So, this time I am actually not

4 going to speak to you all about methionine, so

5 you get a break from that topic. I know it's

6 a disappointment.

7 But I have a very kind of detailed

8 comment about one aspect of the animal welfare

9 slaughter/transport document. There is a

10 provision in there, Item 5 under Section (a).

11 "Slaughter plant management shall coordinate

12 with transporters to assure that waiting time

13 on the shipping container is no more than one

14 hour." And my understanding is that would be

15 the wait time of the delivery truck with the

16 live animals at the processing facility.

17 I think for certain species that

18 may be appropriate. I would tell you for

19 poultry it is completely unworkable. And the

20 reason for that is those animals are not put

21 in any other holding area prior to slaughter.

22 They go immediately from the truck to the
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1 slaughter facility. It is physically

2 impossible to schedule with that degree of

3 accuracy, that the birds would never be on the

4 truck for more than one hour after they arrive

5 at the plant.

6 Really, it is also a significant

7 disadvantage for smaller processors who, by

8 virtue of the size of their facility and the

9 speeds of their line, often it takes them

10 multiple hours to process a single load of

11 birds. So, they would be in violation of the

12 standard virtually all the time.

13 I would tell you that producers in

14 general have a significant disincentive from

15 keeping birds or any livestock for an extended

16 period of time in a holding, a shipping

17 container. You do have yield loss that occurs

18 on the animal, and purely from an economics

19 perspective most processors will self-regulate

20 and try to keep the birds or other livestock

21 in a shipping container for the minimum amount

22 of time that is possible.
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1 That being said, in the case of

2 poultry specifically, the birds do need a

3 certain amount of calming and settle time

4 after transport. So, you would probably leave

5 them on the trailer for maybe an hour, up to

6 a max of six or eight hours would probably be

7 a better maximum, if you felt you needed to

8 have a maximum number in the regs.

9 One thing I would like you to

10 consider is maybe, rather than focusing

11 strictly on the amount of time that the

12 animals are waiting, is maybe beefed-up

13 language -- a bad pun -- stepped-up language

14 around the conditions under which the animals

15 are held, so the environment that they are in.

16 You know, to maybe add some more language

17 around the fact that they need to be

18 sheltered; they need to be adequately cooled

19 or heated, dependent on the outside

20 conditions. That might be a more appropriate

21 way to address the welfare of the animal

22 during that period of time.
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1 And lastly, a question that came

2 up yesterday, I believe, around whether we are

3 going down the path of having this be a

4 regulation or a guidance document. You know,

5 one concern that we would have is whatever

6 wait time is determined to be appropriate, and

7 let's say it's eight hours, and there is a

8 breakdown in the facility that requires that

9 those birds stay on the trailer for a longer

10 period of time, nine hours. Technically, at

11 that point the processor is in violation of

12 the organic standard. I mean, are those birds

13 able to be sold as organic at that point is

14 the question.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

16 Any questions for Dave Martinelli?

17 (No response.)

18 Thanks very much.

19 MR. MARTINELLI: Thank you.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Brynn Arborico is

21 up next.

22 Mark Kastel, you are standing by.
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1 MS. BRYNN ARBORICO: So, hi. My

2 name is Brynn Arborico, and I am 16. I am a

3 tenth-grade student at Seattle Academy, as

4 well as being a five-year chicken owner.

5 So, I have four hens. It is

6 generally my job to let them out of their coup

7 where they spend the night every morning. It

8 is a pretty hard job to forget because, if I

9 do, they will just kind of kick up a ruckus

10 and start clucking and yelling.

11 And as soon as I let them out,

12 they all just kind of pour out of the coup.

13 Then, they will go to like different parts of

14 the yard and do whatever I guess it is that

15 chickens do best.

16 (Laughter.)

17 And I just say this because I

18 think that for me it is a really definitive

19 just example of how much space is important to

20 chickens. I know that my hens just really

21 aren't too happy when they are in something

22 like one square foot or two square feet per
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1 bird.

2 So, my chicken ownership hasn't

3 made me a vegetarian or anything. I still

4 like my beef and my chicken. But I think it

5 has really drawn my attention to the welfare

6 of these birds and to the fact that,

7 basically, all this livestock is being raised

8 and is kind of sacrificing its life so that I

9 can eat it. I think that that makes me feel

10 like I have a responsibility towards making

11 sure that its life is as good as it can be.

12 So, like different animals require

13 different things for happiness. So, I don't

14 know. As a human, you might require a fun job

15 and a plane ticket around the world, but as a

16 dog, you might require two walks a day. As a

17 cow, you might require pasture.

18 And I think that, given my

19 experience as a chicken owner, the things that

20 chickens need most or value most is outdoor

21 access and space. So, this kind of brings me

22 to the label organic. It is that whenever I
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1 bug my parents or housemates to buy organic,

2 it is generally not out of like a health

3 concern for myself or something like that, but

4 it is more that I feel it is an ethical

5 choice. Because I believe that doing so

6 results in, it contributes to having like

7 happier small-scale farms, a better

8 environment, and, then, also, more humane

9 treatment of livestock.

10 I think that the same thing could

11 be said about a lot of people I know who buy

12 organic. So, for me, since happy animals is

13 such a big part of that, I just think that

14 happy animals is really more than one square

15 foot per chicken.

16 So, thank you.

17 (Applause.)

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

19 much.

20 MS. BRYNN ARBORICO: Okay.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions?

22 (No response.)
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1 Thank you.

2 Mark Kastel, you are next.

3 MR. KASTEL: Hello. My name is

4 Mark Allen Kastel. I am Co-Director of the

5 Cornucopia Institute. We are based in

6 Cornucopia, Wisconsin. I am here today

7 representing over 4,000 members, most of whom

8 are organic farmers, and I have a proxy from

9 Cornucopia's newest Board member and former

10 NOSB member, Kevin Engelbert.

11 The Chair and Executive Committee

12 has broken tradition this week and broken the

13 rules governing the conduct of this body, as

14 articulated in the Procedure Manual. Although

15 the language would indicate that the Chair has

16 the authority to deviate from the specified

17 five-minute public testimony, past Board

18 members have said when it was promulgated, it

19 was clear that it was written with the intent

20 to give people more time, not less.

21 But what is not open to debate is

22 that the Manual requires the use of proxies,
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1 taking testimony in the order of regulation.

2 It does not give the Chair the authority to

3 limit questions by the Board and selecting who

4 is going to get two minutes of questions and

5 who is going to get five to ten minutes of

6 questions.

7 We understand the challenges, but

8 other alternatives could have been developed

9 to provide the maximum amount of information

10 exchange between the community and these

11 valuable Board members.

12 Hogs. Although the Committee

13 modifications are an improvement and

14 acceptable in many regards, the space

15 requirements for small pigs are still woefully

16 inadequate and in line with the standards for

17 major CAFO groups in the United States. We

18 would recommend adopting the European

19 standards, and they are delineates in one of

20 the handouts I just spread out.

21 Poultry. The proof is in the

22 organic pudding. Hundreds of commercial-scale
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1 certified organic poultry producers around the

2 country are complying with the law and

3 letting their birds outside.

4 Birds are not dropping dead.

5 Avian influenza and other pathogenetic

6 outbreaks are not occurring. Consumers are

7 willing to pay premiums for nutritionally8 superior eggs that are safe.

9 The testimony of Mr. Greg

10 Herbruck, who called himself a, quote,

11 "farmer" and his staff member represents other

12 industrial producers, Herbruck with well over

13 somewhere between a million and 2 million

14 birds, he called himself an organic farmer.

15 Conventional, mostly in cages, sold to

16 Eggland's Best or McDonald's. These folks

17 should not be setting the standard for this

18 industry. They own one corporate-owned farm

19 with four buildings with 100,000 birds per

20 building that never go out in the legitimate

21 outdoor access. And even though this debate

22 is taking place, they are building two more
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1 buildings at that same facility in the same

2 model.

3 I have no reason to question their

4 sincerity, but this is a voluntary program.

5 If they truly believe their birds are better

6 off and their eggs are healthier that's fine;

7 keep them inside. Just don't put the organic

8 seal on there.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Mr.

10 Kastel.

11 MR. KASTEL: So, I am open to

12 questions. I didn't get a chance to cover the

13 FDA rule, outdoor access for pullets, and the

14 vaccine protocol.

15 And here is the total of 2,000

16 signatures on the latest petition, just since

17 we gave you our signatures the other day.

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Mr.

19 Kastel.

20 Any questions?

21 MR. KASTEL: Thank you.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay Feldman and
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1 Nick.

2 MR. FELDMAN: So, in terms of

3 outdoor access for pullets, what are you

4 saying about the safety proposal on the table?

5 MR. KASTEL: Well, I would respond

6 two ways. One is, since there is the

7 contention that outdoors in this beautiful

8 planet of ours is soiled and spoiled, and that

9 we can't safely let the birds out, I guess we

10 shouldn't be growing organic crops outdoors,

11 either. So, we should sterilize the soil,

12 grow them within greenhouse structures. You

13 know, we have to deal with the environment,

14 and, hopefully, we are all contributing to

15 improving the environment.

16 There are widespread problems with

17 avian influenza and other disease outbreaks,

18 but they haven't happened at homes, like our

19 last testifier. They haven't happened on

20 hobby farms, and they are not happening on

21 commercial-scale organic production facilities

22 for poultry.
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1 They have happened on CAFOs where

2 the birds' immune systems are compromised,

3 where they are being fed medicated feed, where

4 they are under tremendous stress because they

5 are not able to exhibit their natural

6 instinctive behaviors.

7 But, more specifically, I would

8 tell you that before I came here, I was asked

9 by a certifier the same question. And I

10 called Ryan Miller, who runs Farmer's Henhouse

11 in Kalona, Iowa. They manage 35 flocks.

12 Their eggs are marketed both by Farmer's

13 Henhouse and Organic Valley.

14 They have had over the years one

15 positive Salmonella outbreak that was traced

16 to rodents inside a building. I visited all

17 35 of these farms during our research study

18 that we have shared with you folks, and they

19 all legitimately get their birds outside,

20 mature birds.

21 They raise their own pullets.

22 Depending on the producer I talk to, they are
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1 somewhere between six and twelve weeks. No

2 disease problems, no positive SE swabs.

3 MR. KASTEL: Nick Maravell has a

4 question, too.

5 MR. KASTEL: I'm sorry.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Do you mind if we

7 get to our second --

8 MR. KASTEL: Yes.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: -- Board member's

10 question.

11 MR. KASTEL: Yes, Tracy, I was

12 done. Thank you.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Nick?

14 MR. MARAVELL: Mark, I don't think

15 anybody on the NOSB is trying to limit debate,

16 but we are trying to get the job done and it

17 is taking some time.

18 What I would like some input on is

19 how you and other members of the community

20 might be able to help us out here. Are there

21 ways in which we can still get the information

22 in the way that you would like to see us get
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1 it and still not make our Board meetings

2 longer than they are now? I think,

3 historically, Board meetings may have started

4 out at two, two-and-a-half days, and now we

5 are up to four days.

6 So, if there are some constructive

7 things that we can do here, things that would

8 put people's mind at ease, if there are things

9 that technology can help us with, bring us

10 something. Nobody wants to limit debate. We

11 need all the input that we are getting. We

12 just need to be able to do other things in

13 life.

14 MR. KASTEL: Nick, we sympathize

15 because we are in here, at least one of us

16 from Cornucopia, the whole time.

17 We will send the Board members

18 some ideas. But one would be to cut off

19 debate at some point or cut off registration

20 at some point. We were an hour ahead of time,

21 and I would testify that that would equal all

22 the proxies from past years at five minutes,
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1 not three minutes.

2 And, for instance, the three of us

3 at Cornucopia, if we are tight on time, we

4 don't require all three of us to have proxies

5 and 10 minutes apiece. But I can tell you,

6 some of the people that didn't show up were

7 our farmer members who said, after it was cut

8 down to three minutes, they said, "This is so

9 disrespectful. I can't invest five hours each

10 way to drive into this event to speak for

11 three minutes." They just didn't show up.

12 So, there is a happy medium

13 somehow here. The most egregious aspect of

14 this, in my opinion, is cutting off your

15 questions. I want to hear Marty Mesh talk

16 about Oprah.

17 MR. MILLER: Thank you, Mr.

18 Kastel. You did receive much more than the

19 five minutes, and it is time for --

20 MR. KASTEL: Yes, I did, but not

21 everyone did.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: -- our next
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1 speaker.

2 MR. KASTEL: I appreciate it.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Let's go ahead and

4 move on to Marley Arborico.

5 MR. KASTEL: Thank you.

6 MS. MARLEY ARBORICO: Hi. So, I

7 am Marley Arborico. I am a freshman at

8 Seattle Academy of the Arts and Sciences.

9 When I was little and I had pets

10 like guinea pigs and rabbits, my mom, who is

11 in a psychology, taught me that the only way

12 that you can tell whether an animal is happy

13 or whether it is experiencing discomfort is to

14 give it freedom and see what it is attracted

15 towards and what it avoids.

16 And I have owned lots of chickens.

17 I have owned them for five years. Right now,

18 we have four. And when our chickens are let

19 free in our yard, they never choose to go in

20 the coup. And they are never static; they are

21 always moving, and they are changing the sites

22 of their dirt baths and changing the sites of
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1 where they are eating. And they are never

2 close together, either. They are always

3 spread out. They know where each other are,

4 and they communicate, but they don't choose to

5 be packed body to body.

6 And at my house, the two things

7 that agitate my chickens the most are when a

8 cat comes in the yard or when we force them to

9 be in their coup all day.

10 Sometimes we take our chickens up

11 to our island. We have a cabin on an island.

12 There they can roam basically as much as they

13 want. When we bring them back to our home in

14 the city, they always are agitated by the fact

15 that they can't get beyond our fences. I

16 think that this really shows how important

17 freedom and space is to them.

18 To me, the idea of a chicken

19 having only one foot inside or two feet

20 outside is just horrifying. I know that when

21 I sit down at my dinner table I want to be

22 able to feel good about what I am eating. I
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1 personally don't want to buy food or eat food

2 that I feel is inhumane. I don't think that

3 two feet or one foot is enough.

4 Thank you.

5 (Applause.)

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions for

7 Ms. Arborico?

8 (No response.)

9 Thank you.

10 Hal Kreher is up. Eiko Vojkovich

11 is standing by.

12 MR. KREHER: Hi. My name is Hal

13 Kreher. I am a third-generation poultry

14 farmer from Buffalo, New York. My family has

15 been raising chickens for over 87 years.

16 I am submitting an entire packet

17 of information I hope you will give careful

18 consideration to. There are a few letters,

19 most noticeably, one from a parasitologist

20 from Cornell University Veterinary College

21 that details the parasites that are now rare,

22 which will become increasingly a problem for
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1 organic flocks with exposure to soils.

2 These are things that my

3 grandfather and my father had to deal with.

4 Unfortunately, they are no longer with us to

5 come and talk. I sure wish they were.

6 Pardon my voice. I am a little

7 upset after a previous speaker who claimed

8 that the avian influenza is a problem of

9 CAFOs. There are currently two avian

10 influenza cases in the United States, do you

11 know that, right now?

12 There is one on a turkey farm in

13 Missouri. They have 30,000 turkeys. That is

14 technically not a CAFO. Okay?

15 And, then, there is another, and

16 this is in the packet of information that I am

17 sending around, there is another one in

18 Nebraska in backyard flocks. So, yes, it does

19 happen in backyard flocks.

20 You know, I am a little upset when

21 somebody would come and spread misinformation

22 like that. It is very upsetting to me.
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1 There is a handout, a fact sheet

2 from the USDA on avian influenza. One of the

3 things it shows is that in 1983-84 we were hit

4 by a tsunami, the outbreak of high-path avian

5 influenza in Pennsylvania and Virginia.

6 Seventeen million birds were euthanized to

7 control it. We must prevent this from ever

8 happening again. It is the right thing to do

9 for proper animal care.

10 There are also two handouts. I

11 talked about those already. There is a

12 handout that is a USDA biosecurity guide which

13 is recommended by NOP Policy Memo 11-12. This

14 memo directs organic producers and certifiers

15 should review APHIS guidance on this issue and

16 determine any action necessary to protect

17 organic poultry flocks.

18 The guidance contains a section on

19 steps to disease prevention. The first step

20 is to keep your distance, to keep flocks in

21 the best of health, editor's note, highest

22 animal welfare, you need to isolate your birds
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1 from visitors and other birds. Here's how; it

2 goes on.

3 "Game birds and migratory

4 waterfowl should not have contact with your

5 flocks because they carry germs and diseases.

6 If your birds are outdoors, try to keep them

7 in an enclosed area with a solid roof" -- it

8 is on there right from APHIS -- "and wire mesh

9 or netted sides."

10 I also included a chart that was

11 developed as part of the European research

12 into the welfare implications of different

13 housing systems for laying hens, known as the

14 "Lay Well Study".

15 It is a study of the research that

16 is done on poultry welfare. What they

17 basically found was that all these different

18 housing systems had tradeoffs. There were

19 various risk factors for animal welfare, and

20 the amount of risk for each particular welfare

21 indicator varied, depending on the system.

22 There was no one system that ensured that the
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1 hens were cared for in the best way.

2 So, the system that is used in

3 order to address these risks has to be

4 managed. And I suggest developing a list of

5 the various humane care standards, American

6 humane farm animal care, and let the farmers

7 choose a system off that. All of these are

8 third-party audited to ensure compliance and

9 continuous improvement in the management

10 system.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina?

12 MS. HEINZE: Animal welfare is

13 turning out to be a tough one at this meeting.

14 MR. KREHER: Yes.

15 MS. HEINZE: You know, we have

16 heard from so many people that they want us to

17 move forward. So, my question for you is, if

18 we move forward indicating a strong desire

19 that much of this be in guidance, so that it

20 could evolve as we learn, what does that mean

21 for you?

22 MS. ALLAN: Well, first of all,
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1 let me say that there are no producers that

2 are against animal welfare. We all depend on

3 these animals for our livelihoods. We take

4 excellent care of them. Their health is

5 paramount to our success.

6 To me, the best thing that you

7 could do would be to develop this list. And

8 it shouldn't be just one. It should be a list

9 of American humane certified, humane farm

10 animal care, food alliance. You know, if you

11 want, that GAP five-step program.

12 And let the farmers choose off of

13 that list which one. They have all looked at

14 so many more things than you have looked at.

15 They have looked at not just perch space, but

16 they have looked at feeder space. They look

17 at nesting space. There are so many more

18 issues.

19 For American Humane care, you have

20 to look at your mortality every day and write

21 down a cause of death, so that they know you

22 looking at that, and if you have got a
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1 problem, that you are addressing it.

2 Maybe it wouldn't be appropriate

3 for a small farm, but over a certain size a

4 third-party system seems to me to be a good

5 idea.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Katrina?

7 MS. HEINZE: I think that meant

8 no. Is that correct?

9 (Laughter.)

10 MR. KREHER: No to?

11 MS. HEINZE: If it moved forward

12 as guidance, you don't like that option?

13 MR. KREHER: Well, I could see it

14 moving forward as guidance.

15 MS. HEINZE: Oh, I'm glad I asked.

16 (Laughter.)

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any other

18 questions?

19 (No response.)

20 MR. KREHER: Thank you.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Mr.

22 Kreher.
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1 Eiko Vojkovich is up next. Zareb

2 Herman is standing by.

3 MS. VOJKOVICH: Hello. My name is

4 Eiko Vojkovich. My husband and I own Skagit

5 River Ranch, and we sell about 200 head of

6 organic grass-finished cattle, about 20,000

7 dozen eggs, 200 hogs a year.

8 We have been farming organic 12

9 years now. I also sit on the Washington State

10 Organic Advisory Board.

11 I want to thank you for bringing

12 the meeting to this area, the only reason I

13 could be here this week. I hope you continue

14 to go around the country for NOSB meetings.

15 Sitting through this week, I

16 realize I am one of those minute and

17 insignificant group of farmers that Mr. Miller

18 from Iowa talked about. And we are also proud

19 to be making a minute living. And I am proud

20 of the fact that our eggs scored the highest

21 number 5 in the Cornucopia organic egg

22 scoreboard. We sell to about 500 families
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1 through four local farmers' markets, eight

2 restaurants, five health food stores on a

3 weekly basis.

4 With due respect, I disagree with

5 Mr. Miller that we are an insignificant group.

6 I would even venture to say it is these small

7 organic farmers that keep the backbone of this

8 organic industry.

9 Today I want to focus on the

10 consumers' aspect of this industry, since my

11 farm mostly does direct marketing, and I know

12 knowing what my customers want directly

13 affects our farm's survival. The consumers

14 are the ones who are demanding this animal

15 welfare. And as a sustainable farmer, I fully

16 support the movement.

17 I would also like to appeal to the

18 common-sense approach of food safety,

19 providing a more healthy environment that

20 Nature intended. Therefore, increasing the

21 immune system of the animals is what leads to

22 food safety, not confining them any further.
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1 If USDA regulation, that conflicts

2 with the welfare of the animals, then perhaps

3 it is a USDA regulation that needs to change

4 and not the advancement of animal welfare.

5 As this country grapples with an

6 epidemic of obesity, we know that USDA is

7 changing their recommendation of what we eat.

8 So, they are also evolving.

9 I urge you to go forward with this

10 animal welfare proposal. Have courage to come

11 up with the best plan and go forward.

12 Yesterday I heard two mothers on

13 this Board speak about their kids' eating

14 habits of apples. That was the most real

15 connection to the real consumer base that I

16 saw in the entire meeting that I deal with

17 every day. I feel that is the heart of the

18 mothers we all need to have to advance this

19 program forward. Our customers seek -- they

20 are very educated customers -- they seek

21 nutrient-rich whole foods that are humanely

22 raised.
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1 Thanks to Deputy Director Miles

2 McEvoy and his crew, I see some violators are

3 being penalized to keep the integrity of the

4 program. The law has to be sound and

5 reasonable to keep farmers' and consumers'

6 faith in the system.

7 I urge you to go forward with the

8 animal welfare, and I appreciate your keeping

9 small farmers like us and consumers in mind

10 while you are making the deliberation.

11 Thank you so much for your time.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

13 Any questions for Ms. Vojkovich?

14 Yes?

15 MR. FELDMAN: I'm curious what you

16 think the large commercial industry can learn.

17 We have heard from the younger generation what

18 they feel the large commercial industry can

19 learn from their experience with chickens.

20 What can we learn from you?

21 MS. VOJKOVICH: You know, I think

22 in many ways our chickens are -- you know, I
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1 was calculating the requirements, stall

2 requirements, and ours is about six to seven

3 square feet per chicken. And they're happy.

4 (Laughter.)

5 I encourage you all to go visit

6 the poultry farms because there are happy

7 chickens and there are unhappy chickens,

8 period. End of story. There is no BS there.

9 So, I hope you listen to those

10 young folks because they consumers are very

11 knowledgeable. They want to eat humanely12 treated animals. That is what we want to do.

13 And it is our farmers'

14 responsibility to make them happy while they

15 are in care. I think that is our primary

16 goal.

17 Thank you.

18 MR. MILLER: John Foster?

19 MR. FOSTER: Thank you.

20 I had a question. If you have a

21 general sense of about how far away are your

22 consumers from you?
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1 MS. VOJKOVICH: They're about 100

2 miles.

3 MR. FOSTER: Just ball park?

4 MS. VOJKOVICH: A hundred, 150

5 miles.

6 MR. FOSTER: That helps me. Thank

7 you.

8 MS. VOJKOVICH: Yes.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

10 One more. Barry?

11 MR. FLAMM: I can tell you are

12 very in tune with your customers and

13 consumers. I wonder if you have an opinion on

14 the use of antibiotics and how your consumers

15 would react if they knew that the apples they

16 were eating were treated with antibiotics.

17 MS. VOJKOVICH: You know, that is

18 interesting. I think I know where you are

19 going, but I don't think I am going to bite to

20 the bait.

21 (Laughter.)

22 Because let me tell you something.
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1 That is why I said about the mothers talking

2 about that. And I am going to get back at you

3 with the questions because what you talk

4 about, the kids not eating inedible apples are

5 the real story. Unless we can satisfy the

6 consumer who wants to eat Fujis and Galas,

7 we're out of business. So, I hope you keep

8 that in mind.

9 It might be great to have a

10 McIntosh, but it is going to take millions and

11 years to develop that marketing change. So,

12 that is a marketing problem.

13 Thank you.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

15 (Applause.)

16 Zareb Herman is up at the podium,

17 and Maurice Robinette is standing by.

18 Maurice, are you in the audience?

19 (No response.)

20 MR. HERMAN: Okay. Thanks.

21 Good afternoon.

22 My name is Zareb Herman. I am a
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1 nutritionist with the Hain Celestial Group.

2 Prior to my employment there, I worked as a

3 research scientist for the Agricultural

4 Research Service, which is part of the USDA.

5 And I am addressing the Board on the subject

6 of nutrients in organic foods.

7 Regarding the 205.605(b) listing

8 of nutrient vitamins and minerals, it is

9 coming up for Sunset review. Our company

10 supports any action that allows the continued

11 use of vitamins and minerals in organic foods.

12 We would also agree with the clarification to

13 the annotation that includes the nutrients

14 listed in other portions of the CFR.

15 And very importantly, we would

16 support any action by the Board that allows

17 the continued use of so-called accessory

18 nutrients until those nutrients can go through

19 the petition process.

20 Now accessory nutrients are not

21 unimportant nutrients. They just are not

22 classified as vitamins and minerals. Examples
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1 include amino acids, nucleotides, carotenoids,

2 fatty acids such as DHA and ARA. And we

3 understand that any of these substances will

4 need to go through the National List process

5 to be evaluated by this Board.

6 Now, for women who cannot breast

7 feed, my company offers organic infant formula

8 that contains some of these accessory

9 nutrients. And so, why do we add them? The

10 answer is that they naturally occur in breast

11 milk. They are natural ingredients. They are

12 absolutely safe. They are backed by numerous

13 clinical studies, and their use is supported

14 by leading pediatricians, infant formula

15 experts, and sound scientific research.

16 And most importantly, they provide

17 the best possible nutrition for babies. If I

18 had a baby that had to be on formula, you can

19 be assured that baby would receive these

20 accessory nutrients in that formula.

21 Now a question: do consumers want

22 fortified organic products? A recent OTA
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1 survey showed that 78 percent of the

2 respondents said choosing fortified foods for

3 their family is either very important or

4 somewhat important. So, many organic

5 consumers do want to have this option, and we

6 say let the consumers decide.

7 And lastly, this Board is going to

8 be evaluating petitions on these nutrients.

9 We recognize it is a very emotional issue for

10 some persons, and you are going to be

11 bombarded with conflicting opinions. You know

12 how many opinions in public comments you have

13 already received.

14 We just strongly urge the Board to

15 make the decisions based on scientific

16 evidence that comes from scientists, doctors,

17 and other credible sources.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Mr.

20 Herman.

21 Any questions?

22 (No response.)
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1 Thank you.

2 Maurice Robinette is at the

3 podium. Fritzi Cohen is standing by.

4 MR. MAURICE ROBINETTE: Thank you

5 for this opportunity to exercise my right to

6 comment on a very serious issue.

7 I am a rancher, and I am

8 transitioning to organic certification for my

9 pasture and my beef. The USDA is helping me

10 do this.

11 I hope my comments can be helpful

12 to address a very divisive issue in

13 agriculture and lead to a constructive

14 solution.

15 I mention my rights because I

16 think my right to grow what I want to is being

17 jeopardized by the introduction of GMO

18 alfalfa. GMO alfalfa pollen will eventually

19 find its way to my field as long as bees fly

20 from field to field. When this happens, I

21 will be growing GMO alfalfa, and I don't want

22 to. I cannot stop the bees from pollinating
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1 my alfalfa.

2 This genetic trespass is a

3 violation of my right to grow what I want. If

4 my bull trespassed onto a neighbor and bred

5 his cows, I would be responsible and I would

6 accept that responsibility.

7 I go to great lengths to prevent

8 this. I can stop my bulls, but not my bees.

9 (Laughter.)

10 When I cows eat GMO alfalfa, my

11 customers will no longer buy my beef. I may

12 lose my pending organic certification. I will

13 be damaged due to someone else's actions. I

14 won't blame the farmer that grew the crop. I

15 will blame the multinational corporation that

16 made the genes in the first place and our

17 government organization that allowed them to

18 be released. This is the United States

19 Department of Agriculture, the same

20 organization that is paying me to transition

21 to organic certification, the same

22 organization that violated the law and ignored
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1 thousands of comments in the Environmental

2 Impact Statement about GMO alfalfa, that

3 allowed them to be released, and its potential

4 damages to our livelihoods.

5 I know this is a simple version of

6 reality, and the underlying issues and

7 politics are very complex. But the basic

8 problem is simple. I am being denied the

9 right to grow what I want. Consumers are

10 being denied the right to buy what they want.

11 Simple problems often have simple

12 solutions. And I am asking this Board to help

13 with that simple solution. Please consider

14 doing whatever is in your power to establish

15 mandatory labeling of all GMO food.

16 (Applause.)

17 You may think this is outside your

18 job description. However, isn't a label, the

19 organic label, the end product of everything

20 you do?

21 Thank you.

22 (Applause.)
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1 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

2 much, Mr. Robinette.

3 Any questions? I see a couple.

4 Let's start with Nick Maravell and, then, Jay

5 Feldman.

6 MR. MARAVELL: I think we have

7 exited from the statutory authority of the

8 NOSB. So, you can rule me out of order here,

9 Madam Chair, if you like.

10 Secretary Vilsack addressed a

11 group of us concerning the GMO alfalfa

12 decision, and he raised an issue that you are

13 also raising. I am not quite sure how to

14 respond to him. So, let me ask you.

15 He said non-organic farmers want

16 the right to grow what they want to grow. I

17 mean that is the argument he used with us.

18 Therefore, he has to respect their right if

19 they want to grow GMO alfalfa.

20 So, I have been thinking about

21 that. And if you could help with some input

22 on that, on what to say back to Secretary
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1 Vilsack on that matter, it would be helpful,

2 I think, to a large number of us in this

3 community.

4 MR. MAURICE ROBINETTE: Well,

5 while I don't like the idea, I think if the

6 product was labeled and everything that the

7 product consumed was labeled, I would be happy

8 with letting the consumer make the decision

9 and the end result to that.

10 MR. MARAVELL: So, you are saying

11 that the end product being, let's say, because

12 consumers don't eat alfalfa, the end product

13 being beef, let's say, in this case, that as

14 long as it were all labeled, then the consumer

15 could decide whether or not they wanted to buy

16 --

17 MR. MAURICE ROBINETTE: Yes.

18 MR. MARAVELL: -- beef that had

19 consumed GMO --

20 MR. MAURICE ROBINETTE: Yes.

21 MR. MARAVELL: -- alfalfa? I

22 don't know if that gets to me where I need to
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1 be to convince the Secretary. But thank you.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Thank you.

3 Fritzi Cohen is at the podium.

4 MS. COHEN: Hi. I'm -- excuse me.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sorry. One more.

6 Mabell Rivas is standing by.

7 MS. COHEN: I am Fritzi Cohen,

8 speaking as a mere mortal and tax-paying

9 citizen, but, also, a victim of pesticide

10 drift on my oyster beds in Willapa Bay.

11 Supporting organic agriculture is

12 not a new interest. In the eighties, the

13 Tabard Inn had a market garden in Virginia

14 that provided organic vegetables to our

15 restaurant there and others in D.C. My

16 husband's philosophy was no synthetics.

17 In a nutshell, I believe that my

18 family, including my animals, have a right to

19 good drinking water, to eat food that we know

20 is free of pesticides, pharmaceuticals, not

21 GMOed, and that the animals that we eat have

22 been treated humanely, and that the fish are
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1 wild.

2 Our small farmers should not

3 become endangered species. It is critical

4 that organic regulations distinguish between

5 large agricultural entities and small farms.

6 The notion of the family farm is as American

7 as apple pie.

8 The organic label should mean that

9 the product is produced in ways that are

10 compatible with organic principles. That is,

11 adhering to practices that restore, maintain,

12 and enhance ecological harmony.

13 We know maintaining integrity is

14 not as uncomplicated as it should be. If the

15 consuming public cannot trust the organic

16 label, then there is no point in having it.

17 That is why, as USDA and the NOSB

18 consider amendments to the soil and additives

19 to products, and I am sure there are other

20 things, they must apply sound, independent

21 science case by case. This is the only way to

22 guarantee that decisions are consistent with
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1 the basic notion and science of what is

2 organic.

3 I always knew that soil was

4 everything, and that point was driven home

5 when we started gardening at the Moby Dick

6 Hotel and Oyster Farm. The soil in Virginia

7 was very different from that in Nahcotta,

8 Washington, but the method of building soil

9 with natural nutrients and compost was very

10 similar. What you put into the soil winds up

11 in the crops that grow in the soil, winds up

12 in the animals that eat those crops, winds up

13 in the people that eat those animals, and,

14 ultimately, winds up in everything.

15 And all of the pollutants that end

16 up in our waters from agricultural runoff,

17 storm water runoff, and direct pesticide

18 application, which is happening, tons of

19 pesticides that is too common all over the

20 State of Washington, and which I have

21 personally observed in Willapa Bay, and,

22 basically, I think are likely to be in the
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1 fish, mollusks, and crustaceans that we

2 consume.

3 Keeping carbon in the soil, rather

4 than letting it escape into the atmosphere,

5 makes for healthier crops and combats global

6 warming.

7 The USGS has found pesticide

8 residues in almost all of the rivers and

9 streams in the United States. Maintaining

10 soil free of pesticides is the only way to

11 reduce pesticide runoff into our streams and

12 rivers, and to --

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Ms.

14 Cohen.

15 MS. COHEN: Excuse me?

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

17 much.

18 MS. COHEN: All right. Well, I

19 would like to just mention one thing because

20 I haven't attended all of the things. But,

21 you know, the President's Council found,

22 basically, that the true burden of
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1 environmentally-induced cancers has been

2 grossly underestimated. I think that, based

3 on that, we really need to be very careful.

4 It is time to go organic and save our planet

5 and ourselves.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

7 (Applause.)

8 MS. COHEN: And I have something.

9 Where do I --

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Any

11 questions for Ms. Cohen?

12 (No response.)

13 Thank you.

14 Okay. Mabell Rivas is at the

15 podium. Margaret Wittenberg is standing by.

16 MS. RIVAS: I am Mabell Rivas,

17 Certification Program Director of Pennsylvania

18 Certified Organic.

19 First of all, I would like to

20 thank the Livestock Committee for the changes

21 that have already been incorporated into the

22 document, based on the written comments that
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1 were submitted by the organic community a few

2 weeks ago. I can see a few changes that were

3 suggested by ACA that have already been

4 incorporated.

5 I would also like to say, for the

6 record, that we support this recommendation in

7 general, as we feel that it does clarify many

8 issues that are not clear in the pasture rule.

9 Today, instead of making specific

10 comments, I would like to take this

11 opportunity to suggest two general

12 improvements to the process of making changes.

13 We feel that these two process improvements

14 will ensure the best possible outcome for all

15 our stakeholders.

16 One process improvement is simply

17 that we need more time to collect more

18 comments from the industry. We support ACA's

19 comments that points toward a more careful

20 multi-step process, first, incorporating all

21 NOSB recommendations into the pasture rule

22 and, then, polishing a cohesive, integrated,
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1 new document for public written comments. And

2 after receiving another round of comments,

3 doing a final overall revision and presenting

4 a final recommendation in the fall.

5 The main reason we suggest this is

6 that the voice to be heard in response to the

7 new overall system that is being proposed by

8 this new document in its totality.

9 The other process improvement that

10 we would like to see is a strong commitment to

11 an economically-reasonable transition time for

12 certified operators/corporations to build any

13 needed new infrastructure.

14 The document incorporated specific

15 measures as part of the rule, and being so

16 specific ties adjustment to the operators'

17 systems currently in place.

18 When talking about indoor and

19 outdoor areas space requirements, for example,

20 we are talking about potentially significant

21 and expensive changes in infrastructure. It

22 would be programmatic as well as unfair for a
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1 certifier to start enforcing these densities

2 immediately without giving the existing

3 operators a reasonable timeframe in which to

4 make these changes. Some time for adjustment

5 of a specific system that is already in place

6 is absolutely necessary.

7 Thank you very much for

8 considering these ideas.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

10 Mac?

11 MR. STONE: How do you communicate

12 with your growers on an issue like this and

13 get info back and forth, but, then, also, a

14 final recommendation to them?

15 MS. RIVAS: Well, in Pennsylvania,

16 the vast majority of our membership is

17 actually Amish farmers. So, the way that we

18 communicate is actually very retro, I would

19 say. We use mail. Our process includes a lot

20 of handwritten forms, to be honest. So, it

21 does take time to communicate these changes

22 and receive information back and their
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1 suggestions and comments. And that is why we

2 feel that there should be more time given to

3 them.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Thank

5 you, Ms. Rivas.

6 MS. RIVAS: Thank you.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Margaret

8 Wittenberg is up next. Richard Reese is

9 standing by. Thank you.

10 MS. WITTENBERG: Okay. Good

11 afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity

12 to provide comment today.

13 My name is Margaret Wittenberg,

14 and I am the Global Vice President of Quality

15 Standards and Public Affairs for Whole Foods

16 Market.

17 As a former retail representation

18 on the National Organic Standards Board from

19 1995 to 2000, I highly appreciate the enormous

20 amount of time and dedication it takes for you

21 to fulfill your duties as Board members, as

22 well as I highly regard the public national
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1 organic standards development process,

2 including the opportunity for the new material

3 petitions process for the National List and

4 the accompanying five-year Sunset review.

5 Accordingly, I would like to offer a couple of

6 suggestions to the Board.

7 First and foremost is a reminder

8 that everything you do goes far beyond a

9 philosophical discussion. Each of your votes

10 highly impacts real people's lives and

11 livelihoods as well as the continued

12 opportunity for the organic industry to

13 develop and learn as it goes along.

14 I know how difficult these

15 decisions can be to make, especially on topics

16 that may or may not be in someone's particular

17 expertise. Ask any former NOSB member. You

18 will be learning a lot of new information

19 while on the Board on topics you never thought

20 you would have to know.

21 So, thorough listening and

22 reading, asking questions, and being totally
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1 engaged is critical. A lively Board

2 discussion during the meeting, includes each

3 of you, is one of the most important parts of

4 the process, and dare I say can even be more

5 important than ending on a prescribed time.

6 While it can sometimes seem

7 intimidating being on a stage, so to speak, it

8 is often the one who knows the least about a

9 subject that comes up with the best questions

10 that can be beneficial for the group.

11 Good decisionmaking requires a

12 step beyond your own personal opinions,

13 utilizing many filters within your decision

14 matrices, including stepping back and looking

15 at the big picture, and remembering we want to

16 have more land, animals, and products being

17 developed as organic rather than the

18 alternative.

19 This includes making sure

20 decisions are reasonable, not overly

21 burdensome, scale-neutral, rather than

22 judgmental, as well as honoring that there are
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1 many ways to achieve a desired outcome.

2 Voting in a Sunset review also

3 includes the understanding that the industry

4 is ever evolving with continued research and

5 experimentation, with the intent that, when

6 possible, it will provide new or additional

7 avenues and tools that could mean that along

8 the way that few materials wouldn't need to be

9 relisted or, on the other hand, underscore why

10 a material needs to be continued. In other

11 words, the five-year review provides the time

12 for that continued evolution of the organic

13 industry to occur.

14 I appreciated Katrina's material

15 guidelines presentation yesterday which

16 highlighted both the established process for

17 determining the classification material and

18 determining synthetic and non-synthetic that

19 Board members are expected to follow to ensure

20 consistency in the standardization process.

21 I can ensure you that these definitions and

22 procedures which we former NOSB members helped
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1 establish many years ago were formed with a

2 great deal of effort and deliberation, using

3 the expertise many of us had in standards and

4 process development.

5 There is something to be said for

6 maintaining and honoring foundational work.

7 It provides assurance and consistency for all

8 stakeholders.

9 Thank you very much.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

11 Any questions for Margaret

12 Wittenberg?

13 (No response.)

14 Thank you.

15 MS. WITTENBERG: Thank you.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Richard Reese is

17 up next. Keith Stavrum is standing by.

18 MR. REESE: I wanted to address

19 the question about Secretary Vilsack, and I

20 apologize for my sarcasm. But perhaps the

21 Secretary would like to be reminded that wind

22 is a vector of GMO contamination in crops.
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1 I don't feel that there has been

2 enough science about using GMO in the first

3 place. What about runoff? What about the

4 effect on fish? What about the effect of our

5 own digestive bacteria? We just don't enough

6 to have it planted out.

7 And I am chagrined and quite

8 depressed that there is so much GMO crop in

9 the world today. So, one of my concerns about

10 the use of GMO currently, the way it is being

11 done, is its effect on small communities.

12 Small communities have a delicate economic

13 tapestry that is shredded by the predatory

14 business and legal practices of companies like

15 Monsanto. There may be other countries who

16 are involved in GMO dissemination, but I don't

17 know what they are.

18 There is a book that was written

19 by two guys, Miller and -- what's his name? --

20 Conko, I think it was. It was called The

21 Frankenfood Myth. And I quote here, "USDA's

22 rules for organic production which bar the use
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1 of genetically-engineered crops are based on

2 process, not outcomes. In other words, as

3 long as organic growers adhere to permissible

4 practices and do not intentionally plant

5 genetically-engineered seeds, unintentional

6 cross-pollination by genetically-engineered

7 plants does not cause those crops to lose

8 their organic status."

9 In other words, it doesn't matter

10 about the integrity of Nature. It only

11 matters if we can follow the rules and if we

12 can create the rules to follow in the first

13 place.

14 In the recent tsunami and

15 earthquake disaster, the amount that a person

16 could, of radiation exposure they could handle

17 was raised the morning of the disaster from

18 100 millirems to 250 millirems. So, that is

19 a lot of what is happening with these large

20 corporations whose predatory practices in

21 small communities, you know, a small farmer

22 cannot go up against Monsanto. They don't
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1 have the money. They don't have the time.

2 They would like to do it. They

3 would like to be able to think that they could

4 win their case against Monsanto, but can they

5 really? It's tough. It's expensive. Often,

6 it just shreds their ability to continue doing

7 business.

8 I I hope that you are hearing the

9 same dang thing all over the country, that

10 consumers are concerned about food safety;

11 that, as citizens, we have lost faith in the

12 government oversight of GMOs.

13 I mean, when GMO first came along,

14 I ignored it, you know. It is too crazy for

15 words. It is not going to happen. But here

16 it happened.

17 And I feel that labeling is a

18 short-term solution to give consumers some

19 sort of voice, but in the long-run I would

20 like to see GMOs withdrawn from planting in

21 the first place.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.
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1 MR. REESE: Thank you.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

3 Any questions?

4 (No response.)

5 All right.

6 MR. REESE: Okay. So, in answer

7 to the previous question about Secretary

8 Vilsack --

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I'm sorry, I don't

10 think there was a question. Was there a

11 question posed to Mr. Reese?

12 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, if you have

13 got something that could elucidate that for

14 us, that would be helpful, because he said all

15 farmers have the right to plant what they

16 want, whether you an organic or non-organic

17 farmer.

18 I might add, I don't think that

19 Secretary Vilsack feels that this issue is

20 over.

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick, can you

22 please ask your question? Would you mind?
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1 MR. REESE: Thank you.

2 MR. MARAVELL: So, what do we have

3 to go back with him on that?

4 MR. REESE: Well, my concern is

5 that there is not enough science, that the

6 decision to promote and plant out GMO is an

7 economic-based decision, rather than a

8 decision which promotes the integrity of

9 nature.

10 So, thank you. Thank you.

11 (Applause.)

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Keith Stavrum is

13 at the podium, and Pat Kane is standing by.

14 MR. STAVRUM: Hello. My name is

15 Keith Stavrum. I am the President of the

16 Independent Shellfish Growers of Washington

17 State.

18 We don't belong to the Pacific

19 Coast Shellfish Growers Association, which are

20 a big industry that sprays poisons all over

21 the waters in this State.

22 One of the things that I am here
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1 to talk about is the integrity of the tilth,

2 which I support totally. You know, we had a

3 problem in this State where they called it

4 this invasive grass, spartina, and all of our

5 members mowed this grass, got rid of this

6 grass. We didn't use any poisons whatsoever.

7 But there was this wonder chemical

8 called Amazapeer that was sold and said, look,

9 Washington State, USDA, all of the Pacific

10 Coast oyster growers, let's spray and kill

11 this horrible grass, which is loved on the

12 East Coast, by the way.

13 Well, it turns out that in 2008

14 Federal EPA, actually, and I have the document

15 and I have handed these out to you, the

16 document states, you know, to remove estuary

17 and marine from applications of this chemical.

18 This was in 2008, and there was a loophole in

19 the law that says, hey, you've got 16 months

20 to get rid of this stuff, though, if you

21 already have it.

22 And each and every one of those
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1 entities I talked to -- and in the back you

2 will see -- all over Puget Sound, Hood Canal,

3 this whole State, all the waters, the Nature

4 Conservancy, everybody sprayed this chemical.

5 These people have done something

6 that none of us do as the independents. We

7 have 327 members.

8 So, I am kind of here to piss in

9 my corner, to tell you the truth. I would

10 like to be up here and let you know, if you

11 are going to do something with shellfish,

12 whether it be clams, geoducks, whatever, you

13 need to deal with us small farmers, the ones

14 that don't poison everything, the ones that

15 get double the price for our stuff. Our

16 shellfish don't take like mud.

17 It isn't Taylor Industry, Northern

18 Oyster, Coast Hilton. These people will

19 infiltrate, and I am afraid of this, the

20 Board, as they did for the people of Puget

21 Sound, and start giving fundraisers. And in

22 doing the fundraising, all of a sudden,
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1 they're loved and hugged and everything.

2 The integrity of the tilth has

3 something to do with something that goes back

4 to the farmers. I am going to address a

5 question that you kept asking. Let me say

6 this: years ago, if you stole something, you

7 know, you might have got beat up or something,

8 you know, hundreds of thousands of years ago.

9 But somewhere along the line someone said

10 we're going to cut your arms off now. If you

11 steal something, we're cut your arms off.

12 So, if you go back to the

13 beginning of time, nobody had GMOs. When GMOs

14 come, that's the problem. We have to remember

15 it that way. Answer it that way to the man.

16 But, you know, to sum this thing

17 up, I want to make sure that we are involved

18 in any aquaculture. And there is an MPDS

19 permit that comes out where people actually

20 go, hey, you know, we're going to spray

21 poisons in the waters of Washington. If

22 anyone has applied for that in the last five
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1 years, they should have nothing to say to this

2 tilth Board.

3 But, again, to get back to the old

4 farmers, say two farmers are there. One has

5 a bull. "Hey, you raise my bull, and we are

6 going to split it in two when it comes up."

7 They don't line it up and cut it down the

8 middle with two legs over here and two legs

9 over here, and, you know, the bull back end

10 and the front end. They saw it down the

11 middle and they do it equally.

12 So, let's make sure we take care

13 of that, and the integrity of the tilth is

14 with a handshake, and we keep it. All right?

15 Thank you.

16 (Applause.)

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

18 MR. STAVRUM: Any questions?

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions for

20 Mr. Stavrum?

21 (No response.)

22 Pat Kane is next, and Nicole Dehne
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1 is standing by.

2 MS. KANE: Thank you all. I am

3 Pat Kane. I am the Coordinator of the

4 Accredited Certifiers Association.

5 I would just like to briefly thank

6 you for all your work.

7 I would like to provide comment on

8 the CACC discussion document regarding NOP

9 oversight of the Materials Review

10 Organization. ACA did provide written

11 comments. They were posted. So, I hope you

12 have had a chance to look at them.

13 In 2010, ACA had a working group

14 that did prepare a white paper regarding

15 materials review, and this identified many of

16 the same issues that the CACC discusses.

17 In our comments, we stated that we

18 believe that the development of a separate

19 accreditation scope is a long-term process and

20 should not be the primary focus at this time.

21 We believe that, prior to the establishment of

22 the scope of accreditation for review of
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1 materials, the National Organic Program should

2 provide detailed guidance describing the

3 appropriate process and procedures desired for

4 review of materials.

5 We believe that increased

6 enforcement oversight by the National Organic

7 Program of all organizations reviewing

8 materials is needed prior to the establishment

9 of the scope of accreditation for reviewing

10 materials.

11 Our members have stated that

12 accreditation auditors had generally not

13 reviewed the materials review process or

14 procedures with the same scrutiny that the

15 certification process receives.

16 We do believe that there are two

17 distinct types of materials review

18 organizations, ones such as OMRI, WSDA, who

19 conduct material reviews for manufacturers and

20 publish a list of materials, and, then,

21 accredited certifying agents who conduct

22 materials review as an integral part of the
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1 certification process at the request of the

2 client, but do not publish a list of approved

3 materials.

4 It is also noted in our comments

5 that in Europe, it is quite common for

6 certification agencies to conduct a review of

7 materials on behalf of a manufacturer and

8 publish a list. So, we have got all kinds of

9 schemes going on.

10 ACA believes that ACAs and

11 organizations that review materials

12 independent of the certification process

13 should not be considered similar when it comes

14 to regulation. ACAs review materials for use

15 by a specific client in a specific situation

16 rather than provide a blanket product approval

17 for a manufacturer.

18 We do believe that all forms of

19 review programs should receive scrutiny. That

20 is not to except ACAs that review for clients.

21 We encourage the formation of a

22 task force or working group with broad
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1 stakeholder participation, including the

2 National Organic Program staff, the National

3 Organic Standards Board, ACAs, non4 governmental organizations, and

5 representatives of the input sector --

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you. Go

7 ahead.

8 MS. KANE: -- should be formed to

9 assist with the further development of this

10 process.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

12 much.

13 Any questions for Pat Kane? Joe

14 Dickson?

15 MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Pat.

16 Just a quick clarifying question.

17 I think I understand your comments. Do you

18 have a position on whether non-ACA materials

19 review organizations should be accredited in

20 the long-term picture?

21 MS. KANE: I think our group felt

22 that, yes, they should be. The concern with
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1 our group was that ACAs who review materials

2 for clients, who may choose not to proceed

3 with a scope of accreditation, how would that

4 affect the review system? They don't feel

5 that the review of materials can be taken out

6 of the certification process. So, that was

7 our concern.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac Stone?

9 MR. STONE: Pat, do you have any

10 idea or guesstimate how many lists there are

11 floating around the among the ACAs or how many

12 thousands of products are floating around

13 being used in this world?

14 MS. KANE: Many.

15 (Laughter.)

16 Since the lists aren't public -- I

17 mean every certifier reviews materials. So,

18 the assumption is every certifier has a list.

19 But, no.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

21 MS. KANE: Thank you all.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nicole Dehne is
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1 next. 

2 Carrie Little, you are standing

3 by.

4 MS. DEHNE: Hi. My name is Nicole

5 Dehne. I am the Certification Administrator

6 for Vermont Organic Farmers, and I am

7 representing 580 certified organic farms and

8 processors today. And I appreciate the

9 opportunity to speak, and I am going to try to

10 be quick.

11 It is clear that the NOSB feels,

12 as we do, that animal welfare is an essential

13 component to organic regulations, but it not

14 a regulation that we feel that should be

15 rushed.

16 And we suggest the following

17 modifications to the current proposed

18 regulations. I want to say I was able to

19 scratch out some of my modifications due to

20 changes that the Committee already made. So,

21 I want to say thanks for that.

22 But we recommend more specific
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1 language regarding minimizing pain during

2 dehorning cattle. We suggest a requirement

3 for using local anesthetics when dehorning

4 calves older than 12 weeks.

5 And in regards to stocking rates,

6 it is important to assure the consumer that

7 organic regulations require animals to have

8 more than the minimum required space. So, we

9 recommend increasing stocking rates for

10 poultry and small grower pigs to require more

11 space that is the minimum of what is

12 considered acceptable.

13 We also believe all beak trimming,

14 in addition to beak removal, should be

15 prohibited. And currently, all of our VOF16 certified poultry producers do not practice

17 beak trimming of any kind.

18 As far as the welfare handling,

19 transport, and slaughter standards, we are

20 concerned about the practicality of these.

21 There is a shortage of slaughter facilities in

22 Vermont, and it is not a problem that is
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1 unique to our State. Slaughterhouse owners

2 have so many customers to choose from that

3 they often don't see the value in getting

4 certified for a few organic producers that

5 need them to be certified.

6 If we make the regulations

7 unachievable or too burdensome, we are afraid

8 that our three slaughterhouses that are

9 currently certified will decide to drop,

10 leaving certified livestock producers in a

11 pretty serious situation. We suggest working

12 with maybe the USDA and state inspectors

13 already present in the facilities to audit

14 animal treatment, but we worry without a

15 comprehensive approach that slaughterhouses

16 will decide not to pursue organic

17 certification due to an overly-burdensome

18 system of verification.

19 And we do not support a

20 recommendation that expands the number of

21 unreviewed or ill-defined accessory nutrients

22 in organic food. And we support the Joint
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1 National Organic Coalition and Cornucopia

2 position in regards to those materials.

3 And finally, we support a limited

4 extension of the use of streptomycin and

5 tetracycline for management of fire blight in

6 organic orchards. For our producers,

7 successful and profitable organic apple

8 production in Vermont requires access to, and

9 occasional use of, those products. But we do

10 support the National Organic Coalition's

11 phaseout strategy for those materials.

12 MR. MILLER: Thank you.

13 Any questions? Joe Dickson?

14 MR. DICKSON: Nicole, you said

15 that some of the stocking rates were lower

16 than VOF would like to see them. I am

17 wondering if you can tell us which ones

18 specifically --

19 MS. DEHNE: Yes.

20 MR. DICKSON: -- and if you have

21 suggestions for specific values.

22 MS. DEHNE: Specifically, for
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1 poultry, we thought that Cornucopia had some

2 good details as far as large the stocking rate

3 should be and, also, for small grower pigs.

4 Those are the ones specifically we thought

5 were too small.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac Stone? Sorry,

7 one more.

8 MR. STONE: Nicole, what percent

9 of your membership direct markets and has

10 direct contact for communication about how

11 their animals are raised?

12 MS. DEHNE: I would say the

13 majority of our livestock producers direct

14 market, and we have about 200 dairy and maybe

15 50 livestock producers, or maybe a little bit

16 more.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

18 Carrie Little, you're up next.

19 Julianne Lamsek is standing by.

20 MS. LITTLE: Greetings. My name

21 is Carrie Little, and I come on behalf of the

22 ecosystems of two farms, Mother Earth Farm, a
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1 project of Emergency Food Network, which grows

2 75 tons of fresh produce annually for hunger

3 organizations here in Pierce County,

4 Washington.

5 In addition, I go home to a farm

6 called Little Earth, and we just became

7 certified organic as of a week ago.

8 (Applause.)

9 We raise pasture poultry, sheep,

10 pigs, and bees, as well as mixed vegetables,

11 berries, hops, and fruit trees there.

12 Thank you for taking the time to

13 hear our voices, especially of those on the

14 ground deeply involved in the actual work of

15 organic farming. It is our hope that our

16 collective voices impact your decisionmaking.

17 I have four areas of concern

18 regarding possible changes. First, please do

19 not weaken standards in regards to animal

20 welfare where stronger rules about allowing

21 animals on pasture is needed.

22 Second, please do not weaken
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1 standards allowing human waste in organic

2 farms. Until our culture learns to value

3 water usage and respect the end result, we

4 can't have contamination of heavy metals or

5 pharmaceuticals in our soils.

6 Third, we would like to see a much

7 stronger emphasis on the use and sourcing of

8 local materials. The petroleum factor should

9 be a top consideration when enforcing the use

10 of certain materials.

11 I find it troubling that Chilean

12 nitrate is an approved material when there are

13 local sources of nitrogen that are not

14 strongly encouraged.

15 And lastly, I would like to speak

16 to the plight of the seed. It is clear the

17 battle lines are drawn. Multinational

18 corporations like Monsanto are aiming to

19 control the seed supplies of food.

20 Seed savers like myself are

21 fearful for what is in store. GMOs, once

22 released in nature, will never go away. So
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1 critical is your job in not allowing

2 contamination of GMOs, that the entire food

3 web depends on this decision. If we falter

4 here, we will fail as stewards of the earth

5 and as members of this planet.

6 Thank you.

7 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Ms.

8 Little.

9 Any questions?

10 (No response.)

11 Thank you.

12 (Applause.)

13 Julianne Lamsek is next. Dave

14 DeCou is standing by.

15 Dave, are you here?

16 (No response.)

17 Jim Koan is standing by.

18 MS. LAMSEK: I am Julianne Lamsek,

19 speaking as a concerned consumer.

20 I am here to comment on animal

21 welfare recommendations for poultry and swine.

22 I understand the pressure you are facing from
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1 the nation's largest livestock producers to

2 make organic production as cost-efficient as

3 possible. At the same time, I expect that all

4 organic livestock be treated humanely.

5 When I buy organic eggs or

6 chicken, I expect those hens to spend a good

7 portion of their lives outdoors, foraging a

8 vegetated range with sunshine. When they are

9 indoors, I expect them to be in a healthy

10 environment, not wreaking with ammonia. I

11 expect hogs to be able to roam about freely

12 and socialize.

13 It is hard for me to understand

14 why the space recommendations are so low,

15 especially compared to the standards of other

16 animal welfare certifiers.

17 Standard factory farming practices

18 in this country are inhumane. It is not

19 acceptable for organic standards for the

20 living conditions of poultry and swine to be

21 a little above the average conventional except

22 for organic feed.
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1 For these reasons, I advocate at

2 least two square feet per bird indoors for

3 layers and broilers. I am aware of the EU

4 standard for 43 square feet, and I am dismayed

5 that the United States is so far behind. I

6 advocate for at least five square feet per

7 bird outside, since Organic Valley recommends

8 it as feasible.

9 I am pleased the NOSB is

10 attempting to control ammonia levels, but the

11 25 parts per million level cited in the

12 recommendation as high should not be

13 acceptable at any time. Chronic exposure at

14 20 parts per million affects the health and

15 welfare of chickens.

16 Research shows a precautionary

17 guideline for prolonged ammonia exposure at 10

18 parts per million. So, I believe farm plans

19 must demonstrate control at this precautionary

20 level.

21 I ask the Livestock Committee to

22 adopt these recommendations as the highest
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1 animal welfare standards in the nation. They

2 are what I and other organic consumers want

3 and expect.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

5 Mac?

6 MR. STONE: I hope this comes off

7 right. So, as a consumer, I raise eggs on my

8 farm, and if I told you that the chickens that

9 are roaming free and in their grass all the

10 time, that if they scratch through the cow

11 manure and eat the larvae of insects from

12 that, is that repulsive to you or a good idea?

13 MS. LAMSEK: That is not

14 necessarily repulsive to me, if it is a humane

15 environment that those chickens are existing

16 in, and the cattle are also in a sustainable

17 environment.

18 MR. STONE: Which is the case, but

19 the customer that I told that to has never

20 bought an egg from me again.

21 (Laughter.)

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.
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1 MS. LAMSEK: Thank you.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jim Koan is next.

3 Jeremy Shapely is standing by.

4 MR. KOAN: I have been here all

5 day. I am tired. I learned a lot. I know

6 you have learned a lot, more than I have. My

7 brain is slow.

8 I learned one important thing

9 today, and that is the people that get up here

10 and they talk fast, they are talking a foreign

11 language. I can't integrate it anymore. So,

12 I hope you can integrate what I am saying.

13 So, I am going to talk really slow.

14 I am an apple grower in Michigan.

15 I should be home right now on my farm trying

16 to grow apples and fighting scab. It has been

17 raining about two weeks.

18 But I decided I needed to come

19 here and talk to you and tell you my story

20 because, if you let streptomycin sunset, I

21 won't have a farm to fight apple scab with

22 anyhow.
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1 So, I grow about 150 acres of

2 apples. That is about 2.5 million pounds. I

3 also grow some crops.

4 Barry, I retail to local citizens

5 as well as wholesale. We process, and I even

6 do a few hogs and greenhouse.

7 I have been growing apples for 35

8 years, 20 years conventionally, the last 15

9 years organically.

10 I worked with Michigan State

11 University for years, and a plant pathologist,

12 and I am here to tell you that we in the East,

13 North, and South cannot grow apples without

14 antibiotics sometimes. If you understand the

15 science, if you understand the biology and how

16 this works, once in a while, we have to have

17 that or we are going to lose our crop.

18 If we lose our crop, we are also

19 going to lose our trees. As a businessman, it

20 is impossible to recover from that. It is

21 just a given that we will phase out of the

22 business and we go into something else.
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1 In the last six years, I probably

2 used the streptomycin three times. We use a

3 computer model that tells us how fast that

4 biology is building, that bacteria, and, then,

5 it predicts by plugging in weather exactly

6 when you are going to have an infection and if

7 you need to go in and spray that, so that you

8 are just not whimsically spraying this.

9 There is a lot of science out

10 there that tells you that it is not in the

11 fruit and that it is not traceable. And

12 there's a lot of people telling you a lot of

13 things that aren't true.

14 The most important thing to

15 remember here is that the growers on the East

16 Coast, Central, South regions, without

17 antibiotic, are going to have to get out of

18 the business over time.

19 Any questions?

20 (No response.)

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, sir.

22 (Applause.)
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1 Jeremy Shapely is next. Lauren

2 Yoder is standing by.

3 Lauren, are you here?

4 (No response.)

5 Luis Monge is standing by.

6 MR. SHAPELY: Hi. As you guys

7 have heard, my name is Jeremy Shapely, and I

8 am going to speak real fast.

9 I am a wine importer, and I have

10 been such since 2003. I currently import

11 conventional wines, wines made from organic

12 grapes, and 100 percent organic wines.

13 My largest supplier is the world

14 leader in no-added-sulfate, organic wines.

15 They also are the first organic certified

16 winery in the world. The 2010 production saw

17 384,000 cases of wine globally. In 2012, we

18 should see about a 30 percent increase on

19 that. So, by standard wine volumes, they are

20 probably considered a mid-sized winery.

21 Although most folks in the wine

22 industry will tell you that there is a growing
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1 market in the U.S. for all three of these wine

2 categories, the U.S. is now the No. 1 wine

3 consumer in the world.

4 There are wine drinkers who could

5 care less about any organic farming or

6 production methods. There are consumers who

7 like the idea of supporting pesticide-free

8 products through their purchasing habits,

9 whatever is convenient to them. And there are

10 consumers who 100 percent solely want to

11 consume 100 percent organic products, which is

12 largely where my consumers fall.

13 Although we have seen the organic

14 industry and the FDA struggle to end up where

15 we are today with organic labeling, I believe

16 that the labeling rules provided today in the

17 wine industry provide truth in labeling for

18 wine drinkers for the wines that fall into

19 these three categories.

20 The allowance of wine made with

21 organic grapes to be labeled as such by TTB on

22 the front and back of their labels ensures
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1 that any brand-owner who wants their consumer

2 to know that their wines are made from organic

3 produce can very easily do so.

4 And we have seen in the farming

5 practices in both this country and throughout

6 the world, the organic farming practices that

7 is, explode, and it is downright false to

8 imply that the current FDA labeling standards

9 in wine do anything to discourage organic

10 grape farming. If anything, they are

11 encouraging the explosion, one that I, as a

12 wine importer, see daily with new organic

13 wineries approaching me trying to get

14 importation and distribution into the U.S.

15 Some have argued that the

16 disallowance of SO2 in organic winemaking has

17 held the organic wine industry back. But as

18 someone who works daily beside retailers and

19 consumers, I wholeheartedly disagree with this

20 assertion.

21 After eight years of talking to

22 wine drinkers, I believe the consumers who buy
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1 organic milk, organic meat, and organic

2 produce, then, buy conventional beer and wine

3 because they somehow believe all wine and beer

4 to be inherently organic. Why do they believe

5 this? I believe this is because the FDA does

6 not require ingredient labeling on either beer

7 or wine. So, many consumers have no idea that

8 synthetic or artificial ingredients are being

9 added to their beer and wine.

10 They are always surprised to know

11 that there is oftentimes much more added to

12 beer and wine other than fermented grapes,

13 hops, and malt. If consumers could see what

14 else was in their wine and beer besides grapes

15 and barley, I believe that the organic wine

16 industry would mirror that of the organic milk

17 industry, which still definitely booming.

18 All of us in this room have seen

19 the organic industry evolve over the past

20 couple of years and seen large commercial

21 interests trying to weaken the labeling

22 standards in an attempt to gain more of this
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1 growing organic market share without having to

2 change their farming or production practices

3 to follow organic guidelines.

4 But other consumers --

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Mr.

6 Shapely.

7 MR. SHAPELY: Okay. Thank you

8 much.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions?

10 (No response.)

11 MR. SHAPELY: Thank you.

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Luis Monge, you

13 are up next.

14 Dain Craver is standing by.

15 MR. MONGE: Good afternoon.

16 She is Penelope Pineapple. I am

17 Luis Monge. We are both from Costa Rica.

18 (Laughter.)

19 She is obviously an organic

20 pineapple.

21 I am the Manager of the Organic

22 Program at Dole Fresh Fruit International.
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1 Today I am not only representing my company,

2 but, also, the organic pineapple industry from

3 my country.

4 We have read the Supplemental

5 Information Report on the use of ethylene gas

6 and we strongly support such document in most

7 of its conclusions and, also, would like to

8 provide the following information:

9 We agreed when the report when it

10 stated that controlled flower induction allows

11 for the best possible management of

12 plantations and results in better production,

13 taking the concept of management to its

14 broadest meaning, which includes, among

15 others, pest management, decision management,

16 fertilization, culture practices, et cetera.

17 We also support the report on its

18 main conclusion to this question. It says,

19 "It can be concluded that the use of ethylene

20 gas remains important to organic pineapple

21 production."

22 In fact, EcoLogica, a
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1 certification agency for Costa Rica, has

2 stated on its full-length comment that

3 ethylene has shown to be indispensable for

4 organic pineapple production.

5 About the current use pattern for

6 ethylene, Costa Rica is by far the largest

7 pineapple supplier for the U.S. market. It is

8 a good example for small, medium, and large

9 production entities producing high-quality

10 organic pineapples for the international

11 markets.

12 In all the scales of production,

13 the use of ethylene is, without a doubt, a

14 major need, and it represents less than 2

15 percent of the total production cost. What

16 the farmers cannot afford is the production of

17 organic pineapples without an induction agent.

18 About the topic of other

19 alternatives, we fully concur with the report

20 when it stated that the commercially-available

21 treatments worldwide have not changed since

22 the 1999 TAP review for ethylene gas. The
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1 alternative methods have not proven to be

2 efficient and/or consistent.

3 The report mentioned an

4 investigation made in Taiwan with a totally

5 different pineapple cultivar and under

6 conditions that did not reflect the reality on

7 the fields that supplied the organic

8 pineapples for the U.S. consumers.

9 Please take into account that,

10 according to this investigation, the

11 alternative to ethylene will mean that a small

12 grower of 1 hectare will need 1 million pounds

13 of ice during this flowering.

14 Finally, we want to state that,

15 from the farmers' point of view, successful

16 organic pineapple cultivation is not possible

17 at the present time without the use of

18 ethylene.

19 Therefore, we, the Costa Rican

20 organic pineapple industry, Miss Penelope

21 Pineapple, and myself respectfully ask the

22 NOSB to continue the releasing of ethylene gas
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1 under 205.601(k) on the National List.

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

4 Tina and, then, Barry.

5 MS. ELLOR: Do you have some

6 numbers at your disposal? It would be really

7 helpful. What percentage of organic pineapple

8 producers in Costa Rico use ethylene? And

9 what percentage of the import market are Costa

10 Rican pineapples to the U.S.?

11 MR. MONGE: Okay.

12 MS. ELLOR: Do you have that?

13 MR. MONGE: Yes. One hundred

14 percent of the organic pineapple producers in

15 Costa Rica. It doesn't matter the scale.

16 From 1 hectare to 500 hectares, they use

17 ethylene gas for the induction of flowering.

18 And Costa Rica represents,

19 according to one report from the United

20 Nations in 2002, more than 82 percent of the

21 organic supply of pineapple for the U.S.

22 market. And it was in 2002 when the
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1 production in Costa Rica was still too low.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Barry?

3 MR. FLAMM: Luis, you made the

4 remark that there was no reasonable

5 alternatives at this time, suggesting perhaps

6 that you see something down the road. Could

7 you elaborate on that?

8 MR. MONGE: Yes. It was a

9 previous question to Mr. David Lively today,

10 asking what other alternative has been proven

11 in Costa Rica, a list. We tried everything.

12 And you have to read the public comment from

13 Gabriella Soto from EcoLogica because it is

14 really in there.

15 There is an experience of two

16 American ladies opening organic pineapple

17 farms in Costa Rica, and they tried everything

18 because it was previous to the approval of the

19 ethylene and the NOP. And they failed. They

20 are no longer organic farmers there.

21 They tried the cold-water

22 treatments because it is nothing new, by the
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1 way. It is there since several years now.

2 So, they tried the cold-water treatment. They

3 tried a horse urine, everything, almost

4 everything, and they failed.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Yes, real quick.

6 We are running -- Barry, we do have one other

7 Board member that has a question, too. So, go

8 ahead.

9 MR. FLAMM: So, I guess I

10 misinterpreted your comments. So, from you

11 have just said, you don't see a viable

12 alternative?

13 MR. MONGE: No. At this point,

14 no, not today.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

16 No? Okay. All right.

17 MR. MONGE: Thank you for the

18 opportunity to speak on behalf of so many

19 people that couldn't put their comments in

20 front of you today.

21 And it says Gibberellic acid. We

22 will talk about Gibberellic acid in Georgia
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1 with Bobby Banana.

2 (Laughter.)

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

4 Dain Craver is coming to the

5 podium. Diane Dempster is standing by.

6 Diane, are you here?

7 (No response.)

8 Robert Beauregard? Robert

9 Beauregard, are you here?

10 MR. BEAUREGARD: Yes, I'm here.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

12 Mr. Craver, please proceed.

13 MR. CRAVER: Okay. Thanks. I

14 appreciate you guys letting me talk today.

15 I think it was great that we put

16 together this national Board because there

17 were so many times when some states would have

18 regulations and other states wouldn't, and it

19 was a nightmare. So, I am glad this thing is

20 put together.

21 I am glad Miles is in charge of

22 it. I worked with him on the Organic Advisory
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1 Board here in Washington State. He did a

2 marvelous job.

3 I appreciate the time you guys put

4 in. I have been on boards and commissions.

5 You are pretty much probably brain-dead by

6 now, and I feel for you. I have been there.

7 But what I want to talk to you

8 today about is the tetracycline. I am an

9 organic farmer and have been for 19 years.

10 Every spring break, my daughters will go out

11 and we plant 15 acres. I have seven

12 daughters, and we would plant 15 acres and we

13 were organic. And that's how our farm got

14 started.

15 I am also a consultant, and I

16 consult on 10 organic growers. I also do

17 conventional, but I do 10 organic growers,

18 myself included. Nine of those 10 use

19 tetracycline. Only one doesn't, and that's

20 me. You can ask me that, why, later.

21 What we do, though, is I wanted to

22 tell you how we control fire blight. You
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1 know, you have heard a lot of comments about

2 it. But this is from a grower's standpoint.

3 This is what I tell my guys.

4 First of all, we have to have

5 cultural practices. We have got to keep our

6 vigor down low. The disease will spread real

7 easy. We have got to keep moisture out of the

8 orchard. That triggers the whole problem.

9 And so, we come in and we try to

10 do those things. And, then, we come in right

11 as we start to bloom and we spray an

12 antagonist bacteria. We spray it at 20, 50,

13 and full 100 percent bloom.

14 We use this material, and, then,

15 we come in. If we get a bad infection, we use

16 a blight model, just like my bro there from

17 Michigan was talking about. We use a computer

18 model from WSU. And when we see that coming,

19 we come in and we spray and we use

20 tetracycline.

21 And, then, we do a lot of scouting

22 through the orchard to cut out any of the
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1 blight strikes, infect the cutting materials

2 each time so that we don't have that spread.

3 And this is how we pretty much

4 control it. It is like building a house. You

5 have all these tools in the toolbox. Well, if

6 you look at one of the most important tools,

7 it is a hammer. And that's what tetracycline

8 is for us.

9 It is a product that I think we

10 can use, and I think it would be a shame if we

11 took it out. Like I said, nine of my growers

12 would drop out.

13 I am the only European-certified

14 grower out of the bunch, and the reason why is

15 because I chose not to use the tetracycline.

16 But I still think it is a product that we need

17 really bad.

18 I heard somebody ask, well, do the

19 consumers like to eat that? Well, I go and do

20 in-store demos across the United States. I go

21 from Minnesota to Washington to Idaho. I grow

22 14 different varieties and some of my own.
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1 So, I want to get those out in there.

2 And I show them exactly how we

3 take care of it. And do you know that the

4 consumer doesn't have a real issue when I tell

5 them what we spray for fire blight. Their big

6 issue is when I tell them we spray a virus for

7 codling moth control. That gets them a little

8 kinked. And so, I just want you to know that

9 consumer preference on this I think would be

10 okay.

11 I want you to know that we do not

12 spray the fruit. We spray the flowers only.

13 And we only spray when we have the problem.

14 So, when you see a usage that says only five

15 out of ten, 50 percent of the growers used it,

16 well, the reason that is because we didn't

17 have an infection period.

18 So, my time is up. I appreciate

19 it. If you have any questions --

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

21 MR. CRAVER: Yes.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Steve and, then,
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1 Jay.

2 MR. DeMURI: So, on an average,

3 how many times every five years would a grower

4 have to spray it?

5 MR. CRAVER: Well, my growers

6 right now, I would say we spray it seven out

7 of ten years because of the chance with the

8 fire blight.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay?

10 MR. FELDMAN: My first question

11 is, why? Right? You said we could ask you

12 why you're --

13 MR. CRAVER: Oh, why I don't?

14 Yes, I'll tell you.

15 MR. FELDMAN: And, then, my second

16 question is for you and your bro from

17 Michigan, who was speaking so slow that my

18 brain slowed down, and I forgot my question.

19 (Laughter.)

20 That is, why -- you know, we are

21 talking about some modeling here that goes to

22 the question of a prediction, predicting a
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1 problem that you are spraying for. And we

2 have heard statements in terms of strep that

3 that can be more of a curative application

4 after -- that's what I meant to ask him --

5 after the disease expresses itself.

6 MR. CRAVER: Once the disease

7 expresses itself, there is nothing you can do

8 but cut it out of the tree. There is nothing

9 that is going to cure it.

10 The guys back East might have a

11 little different idea on that. But if you

12 have got fire blight, if you have got an

13 infection period, the only way to get rid of

14 it is through sanitation and cutting it out

15 and making sure you don't have any things

16 later.

17 And again, it is a bloom spray.

18 And after that, if you missed it and you got

19 fire blight, then you have got to go through

20 and cut it out.

21 And the other thing about fire

22 blight is a neighbor can have a really bad
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1 infection next door to you, and you could be

2 the cleanest, greatest grower, but those

3 bacteria can move throughout the orchards.

4 MR. FELDMAN: So, why aren't you

5 using it?

6 MR. CRAVER: Why aren't I using

7 it? Okay. My orchard was, you know, I

8 started 20 years ago. My orchard is located

9 around a game preserve. And so, I am very

10 isolated. Isolation is important for

11 organics.

12 At that time, I wanted to get into

13 Europe. I felt that was where the demand was

14 for apples, smaller fruit, and whatnot. So,

15 I made the choice to go European certified.

16 Like I said, I grow 14 varieties

17 of apples, five of cherries, and I used to

18 grow three varieties of pears. Two of them

19 became infected with fire blight, and I made

20 the decision to cut my trees out instead of

21 spreading it to some of my apple varieties.

22 I use all of the other care that I
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1 have talked to you about of doing it. And I

2 just made that choice not to spray Mycoshield

3 and I want to stay in the European Union.

4 But the growers that I consult on,

5 they don't care. I think if you pull this

6 off, they are just going to immediately drop

7 out of the program.

8 We can't go on in pear production

9 and some varieties of apples without it. I

10 just made a personal decision on that. I

11 think my orchard is located in a situation

12 where that is able to do it.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Mr.

14 Craver.

15 MR. CRAVER: Okay. Thanks.

16 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Robert Beauregard

17 is up next.

18 Is that Diane Dempster?

19 Come on up and work that out with

20 Lisa while Mr. Beauregard goes.

21 MR. BEAUREGARD: Hi. My name is

22 Bob Beauregard, and I am with the Country Hen.
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1 We are organic egg producers.

2 We here at the Country Hen would

3 like to thank you for the opportunity to

4 comment on the proposed recommendations for

5 animal welfare. We greatly appreciate the

6 time and effort that goes into creation of

7 improved standards and are happy to provide

8 our comments from a producer's point of view.

9 We do, however, have very serious

10 concerns about the challenges we face as

11 organic egg producers, based upon suggested

12 recommendations to free-range poultry at two

13 square feet per bird directly on soil.

14 I have included several

15 attachments with regards to our primary

16 concerns of disease, internal and external

17 parasites, and the health and safety of the

18 hens.

19 The Country Hen respectfully

20 suggests that the Livestock Committee

21 reevaluate the recommendations and consider

22 both the intended and unintended consequences
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1 that may occur as a result of pursuing these

2 recommendations.

3 During this process, we hope you

4 will take the following into consideration:

5 Will or should the recommendations

6 overlap other federal, state, or local agency

7 regulations with regards to food safety,

8 environmental protection, drinking water

9 quality, and/or storm runoff pollution?

10 The risk involved for poultry

11 producers with regards to potential health and

12 disease issues that will increase nationwide

13 due to the increase of poultry exposed to the

14 presence of geese, ducks, and shorebirds,

15 coupled with the inability to ensure these

16 birds against these diseases.

17 As far as food safety concerns, is

18 the anatomy of the chicken prepared to handle

19 the possible contamination of soil dioxins and

20 internal parasites which could be incorporated

21 into the egg during the shell-forming process?

22 The financial impact that
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1 currently-certified organic producers would

2 incur in either attempting to adhere to these

3 standards or as a result of being unable to

4 adhere because they cannot possibly

5 accommodate these changes to their production

6 model due to space, building size,

7 environmental issues, and/or topographical

8 location to watersheds.

9 A science-based study that would

10 clearly demonstrate the viability of soil11 based runs at two square foot per bird and how

12 many rotational paddocks would be required at

13 this density to maintain soil integrity.

14 And finally, in an effort to

15 resolve these issues and work together to

16 improve the standards in a safe and viable

17 manner, should an organic poultry symposium be

18 formed, as was formed with the organic dairy

19 producers before those recommendations were

20 made?

21 Again, we thank you for the

22 opportunity to comment on these
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1 recommendations and for your hard work and

2 efforts.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Mr.

4 Beauregard.

5 Any questions? Nick Maravell has

6 one.

7 Mr. Beauregard? Mr. Beauregard? 

8 We have one question for you. Thank you.

9 MR. MARAVELL: You are suggesting

10 an organic poultry symposium be formed.

11 MR. BEAUREGARD: Yes.

12 MR. MARAVELL: So, obviously,

13 because of your background, your concern is

14 only for poultry. How would that work in your

15 mind, and how would that help?

16 The Committee has heard a lot.

17 So, what did we miss here that --

18 MR. BEAUREGARD: Well, I don't

19 think the Committee has heard everything. And

20 in three minutes, that is almost impossible to

21 do.

22 Our concerns, basically, are all
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1 based on internal and disease control. When

2 you put chickens at two square feet per bird,

3 and with no recommendations or guidance as far

4 as how they should be rotated in order to

5 maintain the soil -- we are right on the

6 Boston water supply. So, I would have to

7 rotate, in my own point of view, based on

8 European standards at 43 square feet per bird,

9 if I am going to put them at two, I would have

10 to move those birds on a daily basis in order

11 to maintain that soil integrity. So, that

12 means I would need over 800 acres of land in

13 order to move my birds. I just couldn't do

14 that. There is no way that we can move those

15 birds around.

16 I mean we are considered as a

17 factory farm from consumer advocate groups.

18 And my largest flock size is 7,000 birds. We

19 base our standards --

20 MR. MARAVELL: I don't think you

21 are addressing my question, but I appreciate

22 the input. And in the interest of time, Madam
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1 Chair, should we move on?

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, sir.

3 Melissa?

4 MS. BAILEY: I think Nick raised

5 the issue of a poultry symposium. Just to

6 follow up on Bob's comment, and for the

7 benefit of the Board, the program is currently

8 considering for poultry conducting a symposium

9 early this summer. So, that is something that

10 is on our radar.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Wonderful. Thank

12 you.

13 I just want to do a quick

14 housekeeping check-in here. I would like to

15 go ahead and call out the names of everyone

16 still scheduled today to provide public

17 comment, just so I can plan whether or not we

18 should take a break.

19 And, then, I also had a question

20 for the program. This is very general. I

21 received a concern from a member of the public

22 who wished to refute something that was said
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1 about them or their organization. We don't

2 provide a forum for sort of cross-postings

3 here at the Board level.

4 And I wanted to just make a

5 general announcement for members of the public

6 how they can put on the record in some other

7 way a response, if they feel their reputation

8 has been impugned and they don't have a chance

9 to get up and speak again.

10 MR. MILLER: I am sorry. This is

11 a full --

12 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Sir --

13 MR. MILLER: I need to correct it

14 in the public. I'm sorry.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: You're out of

16 order. You are out of order, sir.

17 But, Miles, the Deputy

18 Administrator, please reply.

19 MR. McEVOY: Yes, I think we need

20 to think about this a little bit because there

21 could be many people that want to submit

22 comments in response to things that were
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1 submitted. So, it is all part of the public

2 record. As the Board continues to work on

3 things, as the program continues to work on

4 things, there is ample opportunity to provide

5 continued public input and comments into this

6 process.

7 So, we will think about it.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Might we suggest

9 the next comment period as one forum for that?

10 Would that be something appropriate?

11 MR. McEVOY: You are suggesting

12 that there be one forum just for people to

13 respond to --

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Not at all. Not

15 at all.

16 (Laughter.)

17 No. We will have a comment period

18 again before our next meeting.

19 Okay. So, I am going to go ahead

20 and call out the names of everyone signed up.

21 If you would mind waving, so we can find out

22 how many of you are still here?
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1 Diane Dempster, I see you are

2 here.

3 Jerry Bartlett?

4 Matthew -- John Baker? John

5 Baker, are you here? Okay. Thank you.

6 Jenise Silva? Jenise Silva, are

7 you here? Or has anyone seen her? Okay.

8 Bob Durst?

9 MR. DURST: Here.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Herwig

11 Opdebeeck? Mr. Opdebeeck?

12 MR. DURST: He's here.

13 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. All right.

14 Well, we have already said enough names that

15 a break will be appropriate. 

16 Board members, please be seated,

17 again, in 10 minutes. Thank you.

18 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

19 went off the record at 4:57 p.m. and resumed

20 at 5:11 p.m.)

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: We're back in

22 session. The NOSB is back in session.
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1 Diane Dempster is coming to the

2 podium. Jerry Bartlett is standing by. Thank

3 you.

4 MS. DEMPSTER: Hi. My name is

5 Diane Dempster, and I am delivering public

6 comments on the Crop Committee's proposal on

7 ethylene on behalf of Melody Meyer, Vice

8 President of Global Initiatives at Albert's

9 Organics, who is unable to be here today.

10 Albert's is headquartered in

11 Bridgeport, New Jersey, and has been a pioneer

12 of the organic fresh foods industry since

13 1982. They have grown to become America's

14 largest organic produce distributor with

15 centers in California, Colorado, Florida, New

16 Hampshire, Minnesota, North Carolina, and New

17 Jersey. They have their own national,

18 regional, and international buying centers,

19 creating longstanding relationships with

20 organic farmers locally, regionally, and

21 globally.

22 Albert's Organics maintains an in-
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1 stock status of over 300 seasonal fruits and

2 vegetables, providing product to over 5,000

3 natural food stores and supermarkets.

4 Albert's sources organic pineapple

5 from Ecuador, Costa Rica, the USA, and Mexico.

6 Last year they sold over 65,000 cases of

7 organic pineapple. In 2010, they began

8 directly importing pineapple from Ecuador and

9 Costa Rica, developing direct relationships

10 with small and medium-sized growers.

11 Most of the growers are in

12 underprivileged areas of the central and

13 southern hemisphere where organic agriculture

14 and international trade is the only means of

15 achieving financial stability.

16 In visits to these growing

17 regions, it is evident that good roads,

18 electricity, and running water are the

19 benefits that would not be achieved without

20 the organic agriculture activities.

21 Albert's Organics respectfully

22 disagrees with the Crop Committee's
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1 recommendation to prohibit ethylene for

2 regulation of pineapple flowering. Melody

3 just made a trip to Latin America last week

4 and talked to many pineapple producers. Every

5 grower uses ethylene and considers it

6 essential to their operation.

7 From the mouth of one producer,

8 "If ethylene use is eliminated in organic

9 pineapple production, it is the end of organic

10 pineapple."

11 This, then, would result in the

12 loss of thousands of labor jobs on farms and

13 scores of additional jobs in the community.

14 It is the very essence of

15 pineapples for the flowering to be delayed and

16 occur unevenly throughout the field. Organic

17 pineapple growers rely on ethylene to manage

18 the timing of the plants' flowering and,

19 therefore, the timing of harvest.

20 The impact of ethylene is not only

21 beneficial at harvest, it also facilitates

22 efficient cultivation, size management, and
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1 helps to avoid over- and underproduction.

2 Without even ripening and size consistency, a

3 grower cannot fill containers to ship to our

4 northern climates.

5 Good management includes pest and

6 disease management, fertilization, and

7 cultural practices. Plant uniformity during

8 harvest reduces the incidence of worker injury

9 and accidents.

10 Allowing the organic pineapple

11 producer to maximize all management and

12 cultural practices, including ethylene, will

13 result in healthier plants, prosperous people,

14 a sustainable crop, and a vital U.S. sales

15 market.

16 The result of banning ethylene

17 will mean more conventional pineapple and,

18 hence, more pesticides, herbicides, and

19 fertilizers in the soils and waters. The

20 organic produce market will be less vital as

21 a result.

22 Please also reference the
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1 information presented in the Supplementary

2 Technical Report commissioned for this meeting

3 that supports our position that there have

4 been no new alternatives to the use of

5 ethylene gas identified since the material was

6 first reviewed, and that there are methods of

7 applying ethylene that are both affordable,

8 practical for use by large and small growers.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Ms.

10 Dempster.

11 Any questions?

12 (No response.)

13 Thank you.

14 Oh, we have one. Barry Flamm?

15 MR. FLAMM: Did I understand that

16 you say that you are getting organic from

17 Ecuador?

18 MS. DEMPSTER: Ecuador and Costa

19 Rica.

20 MR. FLAMM: I understood from

21 previous comments that all the shipment to the

22 United States was from Costa Rica. So, I just
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1 wanted to make sure I understood.

2 What percent of the total

3 production is from Ecuador?

4 MS. DEMPSTER: You know, I don't

5 know because I am speaking on behalf of

6 someone else.

7 MR. FLAMM: Okay.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Barry, you are

9 referring to a statistic earlier. It was 82

10 percent that Luis Monge said, not 100 percent.

11 MS. DEMPSTER: I also want to just

12 say quickly that we support the tetracycline

13 in apple and pear production.

14 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

15 Jerry Bartlett is up next.

16 Matthew Grieshop is standing by.

17 MR. BARTLETT: Thank you.

18 I am Jerry Bartlett. I am the

19 Chief Environmental Sustainability Officer for

20 Cedar Grove Composting, and I am also

21 representing the Washington Organic Recycling

22 Council today.
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1 I am a composter in this State and

2 have had a registered compost product for over

3 a decade.

4 The issue before us today has to

5 do with the types of feedstocks that we take

6 into our composting business. As the food

7 waste recycling or food waste diversion

8 programs have intensified in the United

9 States, particularly in the Seattle area, we

10 have also been kind of forced with the issue

11 of taking in lots of compostable food or

12 dinnerware, compostable bags, and those types

13 of products. And we take those feedstocks in

14 and we compost those.

15 There are a couple of test methods

16 that I think that you should look at as

17 adopting as rules for feedstocks going to

18 composting. They are ASTM methods. There are

19 three of them that do heavy-metal analysis,

20 vital toxicity, and microbial disintegration

21 of the material.

22 Now, remember, these products
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1 aren't applied directly to agricultural lands.

2 They are feedstocks for composters.

3 Composters turn them into compost, and, then,

4 that product is then sold. Currently, we

5 separate out all of these materials from our

6 feedstocks that are going to organic compost

7 production.

8 So, I wanted you to be aware of

9 that, and I also wanted to turn in kind of a

10 letter from the Washington Organic Recycling

11 Council that kind of explains the test methods

12 a little bit more clear and more in detail.

13 It also happens to be the time

14 with the ASTM methods that are being opened up

15 for changes as well. So, I think that it is

16 important, if you are likely to approve an

17 ASTM test method as opposed to having each

18 product individually petitioned, which takes,

19 obviously, months, and as I found out in this

20 conference, years, it would probably save the

21 Committee a lot of time by adopting these

22 methods. And if there is something wrong with
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1 those methods, maybe advocating some changes

2 in those methods that would satisfy the

3 organic growers.

4 Thank you.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

6 Any questions?

7 (No response.)

8 Okay. I guess not.

9 MR. BARTLETT: Okay. Can I turn

10 them into you? Great. Thank you.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Matthew Grieshop,

12 and please correct my mispronunciation.

13 MR. GRIESHOP: It gets pronounced

14 all kinds of ways, but usually "Greeship" or

15 "Gership". But it is just fine.

16 So, my name is Matt Grieshop. I

17 am the Assistant Professor of Organic Pest

18 Management at Michigan State University. I am

19 also on the Board of MOFA, the Michigan

20 Organic Food and Farm Alliance.

21 I am here to talk about

22 streptomycin and its importance to organic
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1 apple production in Michigan and, really, the

2 more humid part of the country, so the eastern

3 portion of the country.

4 The reason I brought MOFA up is

5 really, to a large extent, I think this is

6 also an issue of the production of local

7 organic food.

8 I was going to talk a lot about

9 management, but Dain did a much better job

10 than I was in that regard. Growers typically

11 do a good job of doing that.

12 But I will talk a little bit about

13 fire blight. Fire blight is really a concern

14 when we hit an epidemic. To give you a point

15 of reference, in 2000, in Michigan, in

16 southwestern Michigan primarily, we had a fire

17 blight epidemic. We lost 400,000 trees. Many

18 of those trees were Red Delicious, which is

19 one of the most resistant fruiting varieties

20 to fire blight. That translates to $42

21 million.

22 Now this wasn't organic acreage,
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1 but it was significant to the Michigan fruit

2 industry. And essentially, we lost 18 percent

3 of our acreage in Michigan. We also lost 15

4 percent of our farmers. They just weren't

5 able to come back. They lost their massive

6 investment in their trees, and that was it for

7 them. They had to roll up the carpet.

8 And that epidemic was due to some

9 very unusually warm, wet weather followed by

10 winds and hail. And it is when we get these

11 kinds of conditions that fire blight is truly

12 a threat, and really farmers without an

13 antibiotic treatment are one epidemic away

14 from crop loss and total farm failure.

15 I was going to talk about

16 management at this point, but, as I said, Dain

17 did a good job.

18 I did want to clear what sounded

19 like some confusion about resistance. When we

20 talk about resistance in fire blight, it is

21 not total resistance or a complete resistance

22 or what oftentimes plant pathologists call
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1 qualitative resistance. It is quantitative

2 resistance.

3 To the best of my knowledge, all

4 commercially-produced apples are susceptible

5 to fire blight. The level of susceptibility

6 is what is variable.

7 Fujis are very susceptible. Pink

8 Ladies are very susceptible. Things like

9 Liberty -- how many people here have eaten a

10 Liberty apple? Okay, we've got two people.

11 Hey, that's good. Jim will like that. He

12 likes those apples, yes.

13 (Laughter.)

14 At any rate, those are quite

15 resistant, but the problem is that consumers

16 don't have a good recognition of that fruit.

17 So, that is an important thing to

18 think about. We don't have true resistance in

19 the sense that there is a gene-to-gene or even

20 multi-gene-to-gene relationship that is well

21 understood.

22 So, why streptomycin? So, I think
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1 Dain said it best. He talked about early on

2 in the season in Washington he asks his

3 growers to make sure they keep things dry.

4 The reason that is is that fire blight

5 develops under moist conditions and under warm

6 conditions.

7 Now I don't know how many of you

8 are familiar with Michigan. We get rain all

9 the time. I mean the natural landscape there

10 is a temperate forest.

11 So, we can't keep our trees dry.

12 I mean it is, like this time of year, we have

13 had two weeks of rain. Right now, in bloom is

14 coming up, when we are susceptible to fire

15 blight.

16 And I can stop there.

17 Does anyone have any questions?

18 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Mac Stone?

19 MR. STONE: Matthew, we, the

20 Board, has been hesitant just to automatically

21 renew a Sunset, and what is the incentive for

22 growers? But could you speak to potential
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1 resistance to tetracycline? Like, how long do

2 the growers have or is there work being done?

3 Because, regardless of this Board, isn't there

4 work being done because of the fear of lack of

5 efficacy of tetracycline anyway?

6 MR. GRIESHOP: That is a really

7 good question. I would say, yes, I think both

8 conventional and organic growers are dreading

9 the day that we see resistance to

10 tetracycline. Its mode of action is not quite

11 as extreme as streptomycin. So, it has been

12 slower to develop. That said, you know, it is

13 going to happen.

14 As far as I know, there aren't any

15 organically-acceptable antibiotic replacements

16 on the pipeline. And Dr. George Sundin, my

17 colleague who is a plant pathologist, a tree

18 fruit plant pathologist at MSU, has informed

19 me of that. I think there may be some

20 products for the conventional market, but that

21 is not going to do our organic growers much

22 good.
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1 To segue a little bit, but,

2 hopefully, not too much, and I am not trying

3 to butter my own bread here as a researcher

4 because I am not a microbiologist by training,

5 but we really need research funding for fire

6 blight management. And this really crosses

7 the line between organic and conventional.

8 Right now, our management strategies are very

9 unified across the two, these two types of

10 cropping, crop production systems.

11 I would say that a good place to

12 start would be to look at integration of some

13 of the biological tools that Dain mentioned.

14 So, competitive organisms with antibiotics,

15 and some early work that George Sundin has

16 done has shown that you can actually

17 potentially reduce antibiotic use by doing

18 that.

19 But, beyond that, I think we need

20 new biologicals that produce antibiotics, like

21 Serenade. Not everyone realizes that, but

22 Serenade is an antibiotic product as well. It
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1 is an unknown antibiotic, but it is an

2 antibiotic produced by that organism. But we

3 need to move in that direction.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

5 Jay Feldman?

6 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

7 Do you see any difference in terms

8 of susceptibility to the infection between

9 conventional orchards and organic orchards?

10 MR. GRIESHOP: Well, there

11 definitely is. I think, again, I mean Dain

12 touched on it. And, to me, it was a good

13 explanation, but maybe to someone who is not

14 in orchards a lot it wouldn't be.

15 What it really comes down to there

16 is nutrient management. Fire blight does well

17 on young nitrogen-rich foliage, and it does

18 even better when that foliage gets a little

19 torn.

20 So, typically, in an organic

21 nutrient management plan, you are not putting

22 on a lot of nitrate or straight ammonium.
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1 Well, I guess there might be a little Chilean

2 nitrite, but you should be putting on compost

3 or manure, depending on your management plan.

4 And that usually cuts down on tree vigor and

5 you don't see as much susceptible tissue to

6 fire blight.

7 Pruning is also important. If you

8 prune at the wrong time of the year, and I

9 have learned this in my orchard, if you prune

10 around bloom, you are asking for it because

11 you get a lot of young foliage coming back and

12 some nice wounds, and if any bacterial ooze

13 gets on that, then you are going to have some

14 fire blight problems.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

16 MR. GRIESHOP: All right.

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: John Baker, please

18 come up to the podium. Jenise Silva is

19 standing by.

20 Jenise, are you here?

21 (No response.)

22 Bob Durst, please come on up and
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1 in the standby area.

2 Go ahead, Mr. Baker.

3 MR. BAKER: Okay. Hello. My name

4 is John Baker, President of Giving Nature

5 Foods. My company contracts for and markets

6 organic eggs in the Mid-Atlantic and the

7 greater New York City regions of the United

8 States.

9 I am also the founding member of

10 PATHS, Progressing Agriculture Towards Healthy

11 Sustainability, a sustainable farmers'

12 advocacy group.

13 I am here to tell the story of two

14 studies regarding laying hen diseases.

15 Specifically, these studies examine frequency

16 of certain disease occurrence under different

17 housing formats. Both studies were done in

18 Europe, and the results were published in the

19 mid-2000s.

20 The first one I will present is

21 often used to condemn outdoor pasture access,

22 and the second one is used to promote it.
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1 These studies are often referred to in

2 comments and press releases, but are not

3 specifically named. So, it is likely you have

4 not heard of them and do not know their

5 sources.

6 This study, most often cited by

7 anti-pasture advocates, was done in Sweden.

8 The source for its results -- excuse me a

9 second; okay -- the source for its

10 results -- okay, it was done in Sweden. The

11 source for its results were extrapolated from

12 mortality records and were not a result of

13 laboratory research.

14 The study was carried out by

15 Sweden's National Veterinary Institute. This

16 data research found a higher incidence of

17 mortality and evidence of various diseases in

18 cage-free and free-range flocks when compared

19 to caged layer houses. The incidence of live

20 SE Salmonella were not studied because the

21 results were gleaned from mortality records

22 and not live samples.
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1 While the conclusions reached by

2 the study found litter-based and free-range

3 systems to be the culprit, it also concluded

4 that poor knowledge of best or good management

5 practices to be the biggest reason for the

6 higher mortality. This is because many

7 operators of the flocks studied had only

8 recently converted from cage systems to cage9 free or free-range systems and lacked the

10 husbandry knowledge needed to be successful.

11 The study that supports greater

12 outdoor access and, indeed, pasture

13 availability as an important component of that

14 access comes from a study commissioned by the

15 European Union. For this study, the EU

16 directed their food safety and disease control

17 agencies to collect data on laying flocks in

18 EU countries phasing out barren cages, using

19 a live sample laboratory research model.

20 The EU study is far more focused,

21 more vast in scope of sample taken, and was a

22 live culture study. For example, the total
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1 size of the samples taken number 30,000 while

2 the Sweden only examined 914 samples.

3 While the anti-pasture advocates

4 often cite the Sweden study to defend their

5 position, you can see that this study didn't

6 even examine occurrence of SE in its research.

7 It is used often to support concerns about

8 compromising food safety as it relates to

9 greater outdoor access for laying hens.

10 The results of that study were

11 this: 43 percent lower SE odds in cage-free

12 barns than in caged; 95 percent lower SE odds

13 in organic than in caged; 98 percent lower SE

14 odds in free-range than in cage.

15 My personal conclusion: make eggs

16 safer to eat. Get the layer hens out of the

17 cages and barns. Get them outside in pasture.

18 It is a public health issue.

19 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

20 Any questions?

21 (No response.)

22 Thank you very much.
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1 Bob Durst? Herwig Opdebeeck is

2 standing by.

3 Mr. Opdebeeck, are you here?

4 MR. DURST: Bob Durst, Simple

5 Organic Solutions, a consultant.

6 I support the majority decision to

7 determine that CSL is a non-synthetic. I know

8 that the Board is quite polarized on this

9 issue. And while as a chemist, I could go

10 into the chemistry involved, you have heard

11 from many others about that and have a number

12 of detailed resources in front of you.

13 While the decision process for CSL

14 that has been recommended to be non-synthetic

15 may not be perfect, and to some this seems to

16 be a one-off decision, there are significant

17 ramifications to this decision, and it might

18 be useful to straighten out the decision

19 process before many more similar decisions

20 have to be made. But don't delay this anyway.

21 When agricultural waste is

22 composted, the synthetic/non-synthetic
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1 decision tree from the Materials Working

2 Group, which I know has not been adopted yet,

3 is not a suitable tool to determine the

4 acceptability of composted material.

5 I heard earlier today that

6 consumers want an explanation of how one can

7 justify acceptance of CSL. The answer is the

8 composting process. This has been deemed to

9 be an acceptable intervening step for a wide

10 variety of nasties that are present in green

11 waste.

12 There is no debate about the GMO

13 status of the input corn. Composting makes it

14 acceptable. There is no debate about the

15 presence of herbicides and pesticides in the

16 corn or with bifenthrin in yard waste, as an

17 example, that gets composted. It is

18 acceptable.

19 Sulfurous acid, which is SO2 and

20 water, made on farm has been accepted,

21 601(j)(9), for direct soil application as a

22 soil amendment. Yet, exposure at
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1 insignificant levels to SO2 early in the

2 process of producing corn steep liquor is

3 deemed to make it synthetic. This just does

4 not seem consistent or justifiable.

5 Remember that CSL is not being

6 applied directly to the soil. It is an input

7 which undergoes further microbial digestion

8 and blending with other ingredients to

9 formulate a suitable soil amendment.

10 The fallout from CSL being deemed

11 synthetic would have wide-ranging adverse

12 impact on farmers' ability to provide adequate

13 plant nutrition to an organic farm.

14 Since I have a little more time, I

15 am going to talk about pheromones for a quick

16 second. Don't change the annotation. The

17 suggested language for "added toxicants or

18 substantially similar to" are not definitive

19 language. The current rule and language

20 noting acceptance of EPA List 3 and List 4

21 items are more than adequate to define the

22 acceptability of pheromone materials.
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1 Thank you.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any question?

3 Okay, Jay Feldman?

4 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you.

5 A great way to end the day, Bob,

6 huh?

7 (Laughter.)

8 MR. DURST: Why not?

9 MR. FELDMAN: Our favorite topic.

10 (Laughter.)

11 I was wondering if you are

12 familiar with the OMNI decision tree when --

13 MR. DURST: The OMRI decision

14 tree?

15 MR. FELDMAN: What did I say?

16 OMRI. See, it is late. The OMRI decision

17 tree on CSL, which, as you know, found it to

18 be synthetic because of the breaking of bonds

19 in portions of the process, although

20 biological --

21 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Question, please.

22 Question.
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1 MR. FELDMAN: Well, these are the

2 decisions. Include a chemical change process.

3 Are you familiar with the decision tree of

4 OMRI?

5 MR. DURST: Yes, I am.

6 MR. FELDMAN: And so, what do you

7 think about it?

8 MR. DURST: Again, just like the

9 Materials Working Group decision tree, I don't

10 think it adequately captures the process that

11 composting goes through and is used when

12 making a decision. There's too many really

13 close or knife-edge kinds of decisions that

14 have to be made in that decision tree about

15 whether something is synthetic or not, when

16 there is this massive biological process of

17 composting going on which is massively

18 changing the chemical structure of the

19 material, which is deemed acceptable.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: I have a followup

21 question, and, then, Nick. Okay. Then, if we

22 have time, we can do round two.
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1 I have a question on a different

2 topic. You mentioned during a break that the

3 prestigious Linus Pauling Institute wished to

4 weigh-in on the nutrient vitamins and minerals

5 material for relisting on 605(b), and that

6 they decided not to attend the meeting once

7 the NOP announcement was put forth.

8 Do you have any idea what their

9 comments would have been, had they known to

10 come?

11 MR. DURST: I don't know exactly

12 what the comments would have been, but I will

13 read you what the mission statement is just

14 real quickly from the Pauling Institute.

15 It is "To determine the function

16 and role of vitamins and essential minerals,

17 micronutrients, and chemicals from plants,

18 phytochemicals, in promoting optimum health

19 and preventing or treating disease."

20 We strongly weigh-in in favor of

21 these kinds of materials.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay. Thank you.
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1 We are at five. If we can make

2 our followup questions from Nick and Jay very

3 quick, we can indulge them.

4 MR. MARAVELL: In stating that we

5 need to look at compost feedstock a little bit

6 differently than we might look at other

7 agricultural inputs, because it goes through

8 a composting process, is your argument

9 basically that the composting process would

10 ameliorate or remediate anything that was

11 coming in that might be deemed objectionable?

12 MR. DURST: Yes.

13 MR. MARAVELL: I am just saying I

14 just want to know if that is your argument.

15 MR. DURST: Yes, absolutely.

16 MR. MARAVELL: Okay.

17 MR. DURST: The kinds of materials

18 that are going in would never be deemed

19 acceptable if they had not gone through a

20 composting process which is degrading them and

21 breaking them down.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay, do you have
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1 a -- okay.

2 Thanks.

3 Herwig Opdebeeck, and Cheryl Van

4 Dyne is standing by.

5 MR. OPDEBEECK: Good afternoon.

6 My name is Herwig Opdebeeck. I am

7 a scientist. My company is Opdebeeck

8 Consulting from Switzerland.

9 Eight years ago, on my own

10 initiative, I started looking into natural

11 nitrate, trying to understand why there was so

12 much dramatically-charged opposition against

13 it in Europe.

14 I found that the origin of the

15 sentiment was based on fundamental

16 misunderstandings about crop nutrition related

17 to organic principles, which I explain in the

18 book I wrote based on more than 100 peer19 reviewed references, about half of them

20 originating from organic research institutes.

21 That is the book.

22 These misunderstandings that led
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1 to the total prohibition of natural nitrite in

2 Europe did have, and still has, its negative

3 consequences. For example, in Switzerland,

4 over 90 percent of organic wheat is imported

5 from overseas, where it is the case for only

6 40 percent of conventional wheat. The reason

7 Swiss organic wheat has such a poor baking

8 quality is because of lack of protein caused

9 by too low of nitrogen availability during

10 critical growing stages in the early spring.

11 As explained by people that

12 preceded me, similar nitrogen availability

13 problems exists in this country for all the

14 crops. Such unintended consequences would not

15 have happened if the EU wouldn't have been

16 married to the outcome, but would, instead,

17 have looked more carefully into scientific

18 evidence.

19 For example, the conclusions of a

20 recent study on the renown DOC trial plots,

21 the Swiss Organic Research Institute reached,

22 "The nitrogen use efficiency of any fertilizer
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1 can only be increased by better

2 synchronization of the nitrogen supply, and

3 that this is best achieved by combining animal

4 manure and other carbon sources with mineral

5 fertilizer."

6 This and other evidence are,

7 indeed, relevant new science-based information

8 since the last Sunset review.

9 Equivalency may be an underlying

10 concern, but it shall be up to the farmer to

11 decide if it could be used for the local

12 market or to export overseas. In any case,

13 the non-use of natural nitrate in organic

14 agriculture in Europe is not a done deal.

15 Wouldn't it be ironic that maybe a

16 synthetic soluble liquid, but less efficient

17 nitrogen source such as CSL and other inputs

18 would replace the natural soluble and more

19 efficient nitrogen source? Let's not take

20 away from farmers a tool that exists for over

21 150 years --

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, sir.
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1 MR. OPDEBEECK: -- and replace it

2 with a non-natural and less effective source.

3 Thank you.

4 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions for

5 Mr. Opdebeeck?

6 (No response.)

7 Thank you, sir.

8 MR. OPDEBEECK: Thank you.

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Cheryl Van Dyne is

10 coming to the podium, and Peggy Miars is

11 standing by.

12 MS. VAN DYNE: Hi. My name is

13 Cheryl Van Dyne. I am representing J.M. Huber

14 and, also, a couple of organizations. One is

15 SASSI, and the other one is DITA. SASSI is an

16 organization about silicon dioxide, and SASSI

17 is a defoamer institute. The organizations

18 have provided some data for us as well as from

19 Huber.

20 We are here to talk about the

21 difference between ground-up rice hulls and

22 silicon dioxide, and to provide you with some
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1 facts for helping you make your decisions. We

2 are hoping that you will decide not to delist

3 silicon dioxide because there is a need for it

4 in the industry.

5 You asked for information about

6 its approval status and its use. This

7 presentation is very long, and I don't intend

8 to give it all to you. But I did want to

9 provide it to you, so that you had an

10 opportunity to review it after the meeting is

11 over and at your leisure.

12 Next slide, please.

13 Silicon dioxide is approved by the

14 FDA in all kinds of areas, defoamers. It goes

15 into dried egg yolks, animal feed, feed

16 additives, drinking water.

17 The FCC monograph provides the

18 purity criteria for silicon dioxide, and it is

19 very important to understand that the purity

20 criteria, as an international standard, allows

21 for the prevention of adulteration and

22 impurities. The FCC also lists the functions
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1 for silicon dioxide as anti-caking, defoaming,

2 carrier, conditioner agent, et cetera.

3 Next slide, please.

4 These are some of the lists of

5 applications on the left side. And, then, as

6 you can see, across the top are different

7 products that Huber offers. Based on the

8 particle size, the particular application of

9 the ingredient will call for a particular

10 particle size of the silicon dioxide.

11 Some of the typical properties are

12 available for you to read. These are a little

13 bit of eye charts. So, we won't stay here.

14 Next slide.

15 There is a long history of safe

16 use of silicon dioxide in the food industry,

17 and it provides anti-caking and free-flow

18 solutions. And without adequate anti-caking

19 and free-flow properties, certain organic

20 certified products would not be able to move

21 through the conditions in use of commerce and

22 arrive to the consumer of the organic
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1 products.

2 As you can see, there is just some

3 more information about clumping, lumping, and

4 what our silicon dioxide will do as an anti5 caking, free-flow agent.

6 We did some comparisons. Just in

7 all fairness, we are not asking silicon

8 dioxide to replace rice hull, ground-up rice

9 hulls. We are just saying take a look at what

10 the differences are.

11 The ground-up rice hulls are 14 to

12 21 percent silicon and up to 22 percent ash.

13 This comes from their specifications online.

14 Silicon dioxide product is a pure -- I'm done?

15 All right. Can we do just one

16 more picture? One more. One more. There.

17 (Laughter.)

18 Okay. I wasn't sure where it was.

19 On the lefthand side is the

20 control, and on the righthand side is the

21 silicon dioxide. In the middle are two new

22 flow products. And as you can see, there
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1 really isn't anti-caking going on in this.

2 So, with that, I will end.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

4 Any questions?

5 (No response.)

6 I guess we're set.

7 Ms. Van Dyne? Ms. Van Dyne, the

8 court reporter had a question for you.

9 Is that what he is called, court

10 reporter? Transcriber?

11 (Laughter.)

12 Sorry. I just elevated our entire

13 proceeding to something else. Okay.

14 Peggy Miars, come on up to the

15 podium.

16 And, Lisa, who is standing by?

17 And then Garth Kahl.

18 Go ahead, Peggy.

19 MS. MIARS: Next slide, please,

20 Lisa. Thank you.

21 Good afternoon.

22 I am Peggy Miars, using my time to
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1 present comments on behalf of Bill Wolf who

2 was unable to attend this meeting at the last

3 minute.

4 And I want to make it clear that

5 these comments are neither mine nor OMRI's.

6 I am the messenger, and I will be speaking

7 quickly.

8 For those of you who don't him,

9 Bill is President of Wolf DiMatteo and

10 Associates, the oldest organic consultancy in

11 the United States and maybe even the world.

12 He has been involved in organics for 40 years.

13 And now in his words, "Colleagues,

14 I've got to be blunt. I don't like where this

15 train is headed.

16 Many of the recommendations on the

17 table, such as Epsom salts and nickel are,

18 quite frankly, an embarrassment to Bill. He

19 smells a combo of bad science and misguided

20 intention, and in some cases a dubious

21 process, all which add up to trouble for the

22 organic farmer and, ultimately, if this trend
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1 continues, for the organic consumer.

2 The National List is central to

3 the NOP regulations, and everybody in the

4 supply chain depends on it. And the National

5 List has to provide organic farmers with a

6 complete and up-to-date toolbox for providing

7 nutrient-dense organic foods.

8 Whenever we are recommending a

9 product for or against inclusion on the

10 National List, it has to be based on both good

11 science and organic principles.

12 This slide shows two of the most

13 important questions we should be considering

14 when making our decisions. There was never

15 any intention to bring the National List to

16 zero. Its purpose is to support organic

17 farming and to do it responsibly. Removing

18 materials when there are no viable

19 alternatives does not support better organic

20 farming. It threatens organic.

21 And this new concept that having

22 materials on the list is bad is hamstringing
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1 the organic farmer, and if it continues, will

2 halt research as well.

3 Let's look at a couple of the

4 recommendations. How many people in this room

5 like organic apple pie? Well, guess what?

6 There we go. Okay. The way we are headed,

7 this may be a -- oh, he was going to actually

8 have apple pie and serve it to you. So, too

9 bad for you.

10 (Laughter.)

11 So, if he had, he would say this

12 would be among your last slice of apple pie,

13 organic apple pie, and it's no joke.

14 Without tetracycline and

15 streptomycin, organic apple pie and pear crops

16 are hugely vulnerable to the devastating fire

17 blight disease. In an ideal world, would we

18 want to stop using these items? Sure, but

19 there is no fully proven alternative.

20 So, we have a choice here. We can

21 hamstring the organic farmer and stop making

22 organic applesauce for our kids or we can
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1 ground this discussion in both science and

2 reality. The choice is clear to Bill. These

3 are essential tools as part of an integrated

4 pest control strategy and can be used

5 responsibly, so organic farmers can bring

6 apples and pears successfully to market.

7 Does anyone in this room still

8 have a nickel in your pocket? Well, according

9 to the recommendation on the table, you are

10 putting yourself at risk. So, please go put

11 your nickels in the toxic nickel collection

12 containers out in the hallway.

13 But, seriously, pecan pie is the

14 same story. It is well understood that pecans

15 need trace amounts of nickel. And when pecan

16 trees are suffering a deficiency --

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

18 MS. MIARS: -- they need to

19 receive it quickly and efficiently.

20 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Peggy.

21 MS. MIARS: Oh, I'm sorry.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: That's okay.
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1 MS. MIARS: Sorry.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Okay.

3 MS. MIARS: I thought it was my

4 one-minute warning.

5 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions?

6 (No response.)

7 MS. MIARS: Thank you.

8 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

9 Callyn? And Garth Kahl, you are

10 standing by.

11 MS. KIRCHAR: My name is Callyn

12 Kirchar. I am Farm Program Technical

13 Specialist for Oregon Tilth, and today I will

14 be commenting on the Livestock Committee

15 proposed recommendations.

16 We greatly appreciate the

17 Committee's work and their willingness to

18 discuss these proposals with us during this

19 week. We have talked during breaks, lunches,

20 dinners, and one impromptu discussion that

21 occurred in the bathroom.

22 Oregon Tilth's written comments on
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1 these subjects detailed the specific sections

2 of the proposals that we found to be in some

3 cases unclear and conflicting. I will not go

4 into those specific examples today.

5 Today I wanted to bring to light

6 the far-reaching effects of these proposed

7 recommendations and the need to obtain all of

8 the necessary industry input.

9 Oregon Tilth notified all of our

10 organic producers of the Livestock Committee

11 recommendations, but, due to the short

12 timeline and the time of year, we,

13 unfortunately, received very little

14 correspondence from them.

15 We appreciate that the Committee

16 is willing to incorporate input from those

17 folks that are here prior to the Friday

18 voting. However, we would like to see that

19 all organic producers have the ability to

20 comment on these proposed recommendations.

21 It was noted by the Board that we

22 have discussed this issue for a long time, but
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1 we have had changes to the recommendations

2 themselves as recently as yesterday, which

3 gives producers no time for input prior to the

4 vote.

5 The producers' perspective is very

6 important to this decision. Robin from CCOF

7 said it very well, and I would agree that we

8 have found with the pasture rule regulation we

9 have clients that clearly meet the regulation,

10 but are having difficulty keeping up with the

11 amount of paperwork in order to prove it. 

12 And we all know as auditors that, if it wasn't

13 written down, it didn't happen.

14 For significant rule changes such

15 as this, where modifications will need to be

16 made to all organic operations and

17 recordkeeping and time, there needs to be a

18 look at the industry impact. Looking at the

19 economic viability of organic producers is not

20 counter to the intentions of organic

21 agriculture.

22 I have heard commenters also this
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1 week state that it is the end consumer that is

2 the most important. However, looking at

3 producer viability is very important as well.

4 Without organic farmers, processors, and

5 handlers, there is no organic food.

6 We wholeheartedly agree with MOSA

7 who stated that they could have a producer

8 poll about the impacts of these

9 recommendations and provide any other data

10 that you would like to see. If this is done,

11 please include Oregon Tilth in this effort.

12 We also agree with other

13 commenters today. Please take all of the

14 public comment into account, put it into one

15 document, so that we can see everything

16 together, including have it combined against

17 as it was when it was first presented and

18 bring it back to the fall 2011 meeting. We

19 can drum up more comment from our producers by

20 then.

21 Thank you.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.
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1 MS. KIRCHAR: Thank you.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Any questions for

3 Callyn?

4 (No response.)

5 All right. Garth Kahl, you're up

6 next.

7 Jason Woulfin, you're standing by.

8 MR. KAHL: Hello. My name is

9 Garth Kahl.

10 And I, first of all, want to thank

11 all you brain-dead people for suffering

12 through this. You are probably, well, almost

13 undoubtedly, more brain-dead than all the rest

14 of us in here put together. So, thank you.

15 (Laughter.)

16 Since 1996, I have worked as an

17 organic inspector, consultant, and hired

18 policy wonk for over a half dozen certifiers,

19 including my current employer, Oregon Tilth,

20 whose views are not necessarily reflected in

21 my comments.

22 As regards my current comments, I
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1 am also co-owner of Common Treasury Farm, a

2 diversified crop and livestock operation that

3 has been certified since 1993. Common

4 Treasury Farm produces certified organic

5 blueberries, vegetable starts, seeds, locker

6 lambs, and eggs.

7 Today I want to specifically

8 address a number of issues: the vote to allow

9 magnesium sulfate to Sunset and, secondly, the

10 impact of any proposed change to the rule,

11 especially animal welfare standards, and what

12 they would have on producers and inspectors.

13 Magnesium sulfate. This material

14 with its current annotation requiring

15 documented soil deficiency is a valuable tool

16 for producers. On my own farm we use cover

17 crops, vermicompost, kelp, and dolomite to

18 supply micronutrients, including magnesium.

19 Even so, on particular crops, especially

20 garlic and onions, we have found foliar

21 applications of this material to be a very

22 valuable tool.
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1 In spite of the lack of a complete

2 technical review and the fact that there does

3 not at least appear to be any widespread human

4 health, environmental, or other adverse

5 effects from the use and manufacture of this

6 product -- heck, thousands a people a day soak

7 their feet in it -- the Crops Committee chose

8 to recommend its removal from the list.

9 This would result not only in the

10 loss of another tool for organic producers,

11 but an additional burden on producers,

12 inspectors, and certifiers who will then have

13 to document that only non-synthetic sources

14 are used.

15 An uninformed observer might,

16 watching the proceedings this week, conclude

17 that there is a rampant attitude of, hey,

18 let's whack some low-lying synthetics because

19 we can.

20 I would urge that the Board please

21 remember that every change to the National

22 List represents in the aggregate massive
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1 additional hours for inspectors, reviewers,

2 and certifiers, and an additional cost to

3 producers in the form of longer inspections,

4 discarded materials, and possibly responses to

5 non-compliances or even the loss of certified

6 ground. The National List should not be

7 changed without taking into full account the

8 economic effects on all parties involved,

9 particularly growers.

10 With respect to the animal welfare

11 standards, I would just conclude that my farm

12 could easily comply with them, but I will also

13 conclude that this year I spent more time

14 doing animal and crop OSPs than I did filling

15 out my taxes, which included a 1040, a

16 Schedule C, and a Schedule F. And I am an

17 "organicrat". I have been doing this for 15

18 years for multiple certifiers on multiple

19 continents in multiple languages.

20 It is a burden. It is coming down

21 on producers, and they are going to leave.

22 They are going to go to natural certified.
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1 They are going to balk.

2 So, we need to do something about

3 this. Please consider that as you make

4 changes.

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you, Garth.

7 (Applause.)

8 MR. KAHL: Any questions?

9 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Nick Maravell?

10 MR. MARAVELL: Yes, I would just

11 like you to fill in a little more detail.

12 What makes you say that organic producers

13 might go to other certification-type programs?

14 MR. KAHL: They already are. In

15 my experience, I know -- sorry.

16 MR. MARAVELL: You actually have

17 examples, anecdotal examples?

18 MR. KAHL: I have anecdotal

19 examples of at least two who have abandoned

20 organic certification in favor of natural,

21 particularly beef production, because they

22 didn't want to deal with the pasture rule.
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1 And there's others. I mean, you know, in our

2 area Farm Alliance here in the Pacific

3 Northwest, they are strong and there's a lot

4 of people that think that Farm Alliance is

5 better, although they still allow glyphosate.

6 I mean it is happening. People

7 are leaving. Producers are leaving. And the

8 recordkeeping requirements and the burden of

9 certification is part of it.

10 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Jay Feldman?

11 MR. FELDMAN: If I understand you

12 correctly, you are saying the proposal before

13 the Board is too stringent for growers?

14 MR. KAHL: With respect to which?

15 MR. FELDMAN: Animal welfare.

16 MR. KAHL: Animal welfare, I would

17 echo the comments that other people have been

18 making all afternoon. It needs to be done

19 very carefully. I agree that there needs to

20 be an improvement in animal welfare standards,

21 but it needs to be handled very carefully and

22 it needs to be done in a way that does not
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1 unduly burden producers, and that producers

2 have a lot of notice, like a big sign that

3 says, "This is coming. By the way, this is

4 coming. Oh, yeah, this is going to come."

5 It needs to be implemented slowly

6 and carefully. Producers need that because

7 they are busy doing other things. They are

8 not watching what policy is doing. They are

9 trying to farm. And, then, the inspector gets

10 out there and says, "You're non-compliant.

11 You have 30 days to respond to this non12 compliance or, boom, you're suspended." It

13 has just got to be more sensitive to the folks

14 on the ground out there.

15 Thank you.

16 (Applause.)

17 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

18 Jason Woulfin?

19 MR. WOULFIN: Well, good

20 afternoon, and I commend all of you on your

21 stamina today. This has been an impressive

22 process for me as a first-time attendee to see
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1 all of this.

2 My name is Jason Woulfin. I am

3 with SQM and, as you probably know, we are a

4 producer of natural sodium nitrate.

5 I simply wanted to shed some light

6 on SQM's stats and claims of statements of

7 support and petitions that have been presented

8 to the NOSB so far at this meeting.

9 Regarding the statements of

10 support, we did hire a company to contact

11 people within the organic community,

12 specifically targeting organic farmers as

13 certified on the documents we found. This was

14 done specifically because users of natural

15 Chilean nitrate began contacting us with

16 statements of support, asking how to

17 communicate this properly to the Board.

18 We felt that, as significant

19 industry support was cited as a reason for

20 considering the removal of the annotation by

21 the Crops Committee, we felt we needed to find

22 an effective means for displaying that there
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1 is actually significant industry support for

2 keeping the annotation regarding the use of

3 natural Chilean nitrate and bridging the

4 communication gap we felt existed in

5 portraying this information.

6 The intention of this program was

7 to contact individuals within the organic

8 community, capture statements of support as it

9 relates to the continued use of natural

10 Chilean nitrate. Upon confirming if the

11 individual wished to make a statement of

12 support, the individual was informed that they

13 would be recorded and their comment would be

14 shared with the NOSB.

15 Via this process, 273 individual

16 comments of support from up to 40 different

17 states were recorded and transcribed to the

18 regulations.gov web page.

19 For anyone concerned as to

20 misrepresentation, you can clearly search the

21 web page to view a statement. These

22 statements range from quite technical to
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1 general and were not edited or reviewed by SQM

2 in any way prior to being submitted via a

3 third-party company to the NOSB web page.

4 If needed, we can also provide

5 full copies of the recordings for any

6 statement of support that was submitted to the

7 NOSB on behalf of one of these individuals.

8 Separately, the petition that was

9 formally submitted to the NOSB on Tuesday by

10 Emmanuel De Marez with a little over 500

11 signatures was a written petition that went to

12 individual organic farmers throughout many

13 states for their signatures, if they chose to

14 support it. These were sent back to SQM

15 through various channels prior to submitting

16 to the NOSB.

17 Referring to another comment made

18 earlier regarding usage in the State of

19 Washington, I would like to just note that

20 close to 20 percent of the signatures did come

21 from the State of Washington in support of the

22 Chilean nitrate.
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1 Thank you.

2 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you very

3 much.

4 Any questions for Mr. Woulfin?

5 (No response.)

6 Thank you.

7 We are almost done. We asked the

8 Materials Committee last meeting to take a

9 look at flavors and the notion of forming a

10 Flavors Task Force. In the shuffle of

11 priorities, it was not deemed something that

12 NOP could take on right now, forming a task

13 force. And the industry came together to form

14 their own Flavors Task Force.

15 We have asked if we could get a

16 quick update from the Flavors Task Force.

17 This wasn't on the agenda, however. And so,

18 just to make sure we are following our

19 processes, it would take about three minutes,

20 and I would ask NOSB members if they would be

21 willing to make this change to the agenda with

22 a show of hands.
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1 All in favor of hearing from the

2 Flavors Task Force?

3 All opposed?

4 We have two representatives from

5 the Flavors Task Force, Gwendolyn Wyard and

6 Julie Weisman. Please approach the podium.

7 Mac?

8 MR. STONE: While they are coming,

9 I need to acknowledge that I was asked by

10 Steve to represent the Board in their Task

11 Force and listen into the phone calls, and I

12 was not able to do so. So, I wanted to

13 acknowledge that.

14 Sorry about that, Steve.

15 CHAIR MIEDEMA: No problem. You

16 can catch up.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MS. WYARD: Hello. My name is

19 Gwendolyn Wyard.

20 MS. WEISMAN: My name is Julie

21 Weisman.

22 And we co-chair the OTA Flavor
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1 Task Force.

2 This was originally signed up for

3 public comment because we knew we were not on

4 the agenda, and we relinquished that spot.

5 But we are going to keep it to three minutes,

6 which we are going to use to introduce the OTA

7 Flavor Task Force and draw your attention to

8 the comments that we submitted to

9 regulations.gov regarding what is a non-agenda

10 item for this meeting.

11 And I think people who have been

12 on the Board for a while have heard some of

13 this dilemma and discussed it. So, for those

14 of you who are new, basically, flavors are

15 allowed, non-agricultural, non-synthetic

16 ingredients, under 205.605(a) of the National

17 List since the National Organic Program's

18 inception, with no requirement to source

19 organic alternatives.

20 At the same time, we have a

21 steadily-increasing number of certified

22 organic flavors. And while the percentage of
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1 organic flavors compared to their conventional

2 counterparts is very small, and for certain

3 types don't exist at all, organic flavors are

4 available, and they have been for a long time.

5 So, the issue, then, becomes one

6 about, because flavors are a broad category,

7 of agricultural ones and non-agricultural

8 classification, so, therefore, commercial

9 availability requirements.

10 The National Organic Standards

11 Board at the October 2010 meeting in Madison

12 recommended the formation of a Task Force on

13 Flavors, and the NOSB responded to their

14 request in a December 17th, 2010, response

15 memorandum which stated the following:

16 MS. WYARD: Now it is my turn.

17 "The NOP concurs with the need for

18 a more extensive review of the category of

19 flavors currently listed on 205.605(a) to

20 determine if there are flavors that should be

21 considered agricultural and required to be

22 organically-produced. The NOP does not
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1 believe there is a need for an NOP-sponsored

2 task force on flavors at this time. The NOP

3 believes the formation of an informal industry

4 group to develop a flavor recommendation for

5 the NOP to consider would be accomplished more

6 effectively through an industry-formed group."

7 In response to the NOP and the

8 need for an information industry task force,

9 OTA invited interested parties to join such a

10 group. The OTA Flavor Task Force is comprised

11 of 12 members and has been meeting once a week

12 since February 18th of 2011.

13 We have the list of participants

14 up on the slide there. As you can see by this

15 list, we have an experienced, knowledgeable,

16 and well-rounded representation, including

17 former NOSB members, current NOSB member.

18 Thank you, Mr. Mac Stone; we will look forward

19 to you on the next calls. We have got flavor

20 manufacturers and end-users, consultants, and

21 the primary trade association for the flavor

22 industry.
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1 We have completed our first round

2 of work, accomplishing our first

3 recommendation. Understanding that flavors

4 are not on the agenda for this meeting, again,

5 we simply want to make the Board aware of the

6 OTA Flavor Task Force and draw your attention

7 to our written comments and our

8 recommendation.

9 Additionally, we respectfully

10 request that the treatment of natural flavors

11 on the National List becomes a Handling

12 Committee work plan item for the fall meeting.

13 The Task Force plans to continue

14 our work, and we look forward to providing the

15 NOSB with a complete presentation at the fall

16 meeting.

17 Our comments can be found at

18 regulations.gov, Comment No. -- time to write

19 this own -- AMSNOP1100143182. And you also

20 should have them in your book.

21 So, thank you very much.

22 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.
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1 MS. WYARD: We really appreciate

2 your time.

3 CHAIR MIEDEMA: Thank you.

4 Any questions for representatives

5 of the industry Flavors Task Force? Steve?

6 MR. DeMURI: Not so much a

7 question, but a comment. You guys did a

8 tremendous amount of work in two months. So,

9 thank you very much. You have made great

10 progress already.

11 CHAIR MIEDEMA: All right. Super.

12 Before we recess for the day, I

13 want to remind NOSB members that we may have

14 some edits to do in Committee based on the

15 last few days. Please make sure you check in

16 with your Committee Chairs before you leave

17 the room this evening.

18 And we will reconvene at 8:00 a.m.

19 tomorrow for voting.

20 Thank you.

21 (Whereupon, at 6:06 p.m., the

22 above-entitled matter went off the record.)
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balance 69:13,14

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ball 204:2 401:3

Banana 463:1

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bar 424:22

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barns 65:22 248:19

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barrel 30:11 53:15

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270:18 271:7

326:9 329:14

357:13,19 359:8

378:5 405:15

415:2,22 425:1

472:11 474:11

476:1,7 509:15,18

514:7 518:10

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baseline 114:1

basic 14:18 19:14

233:4 291:5

300:17 408:7

413:1

basically 66:12

67:5 90:21 191:11

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388:12 392:17

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basis 44:2,4 98:6

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Bass 6:9 283:3

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batches 75:13

bathroom 521:21

baths 387:22

battle 444:17

Bay 97:9 99:15

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beacon 333:9

beak 242:17,18,19

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bearing 64:4

289:22

beat 265:12,13

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Beauregard 9:4

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471:20,21,22

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beautiful 61:20

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beds 411:10

beef 267:17 334:6

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beefed-up 373:12

beer 455:2,3,6,9,12

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began 79:21 482:7

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beginning 26:17

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begun 92:5 175:16

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behalf 9:6,22 49:16

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Behar 4:18 124:16

130:11,13 133:21

134:10 136:4

137:11 138:8

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behave 320:7

behavior 96:7

behavioral 217:7

behaviorists 219:9

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behooves 238:2

beings 77:13

belief 343:3

belies 252:15

believe 12:11 15:5

33:8 36:17 39:12

41:2 69:10 90:22

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148:6 149:4,16

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187:17 207:5

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343:6 344:11

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Beltsville 283:16

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berries 443:11

best 29:4,6 66:8,9

87:3 94:15 103:18

111:4 178:9 190:2

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213:14 227:7

273:17 343:2

375:15 380:16

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394:6 398:11

404:17 416:14

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492:3 493:1 500:4

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Beth 4:9 6:23 97:4

100:21 101:2

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330:3 332:20,22

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better 72:20 109:18

136:1 146:15

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beverages 107:21

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279:22 388:15

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big 20:14 51:12

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bigger 31:12

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285:8,11 330:10

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Bison 5:8 175:3

Biss 227:6 230:13

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bit 21:9 105:3

126:12 174:12

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bite 401:19

bitter 99:7

black-and-white

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blame 407:14,15

blanket 299:9,10

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bleaching 109:12

bleeding 16:1

blended 101:17

172:8 194:22

blending 504:8

Bless 154:13

blight 17:6 153:15

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186:2 278:4 322:2

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470:19 490:13,13

490:17,20 491:11

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493:4,15 495:6

496:16 497:6,14

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blind 144:9

block 170:8

blood 24:8

bloom 320:12

465:11,13 469:17

493:13 497:10

blooms 321:21

Blossom 154:13

blossoms 320:18

blow 99:7

blueberries 526:5

blunt 517:14

board 1:5,10 13:1

21:14 37:1,8

84:20 85:2,7,21

86:5 87:2 88:2,14

88:17 90:21 93:20

95:3 96:1 103:13

103:15 107:18

121:1 122:14

125:7 126:5 129:1

129:5 131:9 136:3

136:10,13 146:20

178:1 183:3,10

184:7 198:11

200:18,22 207:18

208:11 217:2

219:1,5,12 220:5

221:17 224:21

243:14,16,20

253:2 254:14

255:2 257:6,16,21

258:1,8,14,21

259:8 261:13

265:11 276:13

277:1,5,11,19

283:4,18 292:9

306:1,4,10 309:12

315:21 316:12

318:8 326:7 336:1

336:5 337:11

355:14,15 356:9

360:21 361:5,5

363:3,5 370:3

378:9,17 379:3,11

384:9 385:1,3,17

396:10 398:13

403:5,16 404:5

405:7,14 408:12

419:18,21 420:6

420:19 421:1

422:19 430:20

432:2 436:3 462:7

463:16 464:1

477:7 478:3 479:2

480:16 489:19

493:20 494:3

502:8 522:21

527:20 530:13

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537:12 538:11

540:5

boards 253:9 254:5

464:4

Board's 84:16

326:9 363:21

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boats 99:18

Bob 9:15 471:22

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Bobby 463:1

Bob's 477:6

bodies 339:2

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book 424:18

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books 104:10

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boost 173:14 193:6

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Boston 287:4 476:6

bottle 151:10

bottles 31:10 33:19

bottling 29:16

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448:20

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boxed 206:9

Boxer 126:2

boy 94:4

Braeburn 156:18

brain 262:10

302:16 449:7

468:18

brain-dead 464:5

525:11,13

Branch 283:16

brands 324:6

brand-owner 454:1

Brazil 143:16

bread 495:3

break 41:14 112:5

120:22 216:14,15

226:18,19 261:15

312:3 323:9 367:5

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464:10 477:18

480:15 507:2

breakage 234:3

breakdown 195:7

232:9 374:8

breaking 232:9

282:2,8 505:18

508:21

breakout 84:1

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Bridgeport 481:11

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brief 213:18 222:10

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briefly 102:11

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Bristol 97:8 99:15

bro 465:16 468:16

broad 136:14

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broader 200:19

broadest 457:14

brochures 31:14

broilers 66:1

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broken 378:12,12

brokers 204:16

brood 338:17

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Buffalo 389:14

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build 132:6 285:2

417:12

building 80:4 115:1

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buildings 330:18

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bull 407:4 432:5,5

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bullet 82:20

bulls 407:8

bumping 104:6

bunch 466:14

burden 49:14

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burdens 265:20

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Bushway 127:15

business 51:3

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245:7 249:13

286:5 290:8

339:22 369:9

402:7 424:14

426:7 450:22

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businesses 99:8

102:19 103:6,10

184:10

businessman

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busy 349:8 531:7

Butte 125:3

butter 495:3

butterflies 161:19

buy 52:2,10,18

122:11 170:1

197:16 334:6

351:1 377:1,11

389:1 407:11

408:10 410:15

446:5 454:22

455:2

buyer 154:6

buyers 154:10

350:15

buying 52:15

114:22 157:1

347:9 352:6

481:18

buy-in 132:19

buzz 148:14

byproducts 122:12

C

C 1:22 292:2,3

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Cabernet 34:4

cabin 388:11

CACC 208:21

209:2 210:6 433:8

433:16

CAFO 379:17

390:14

CAFOs 383:1

390:9

cage 239:1 500:8,8

501:14

caged 499:19

501:12,13

cages 248:18 366:3

380:15 500:18

501:17

cage-free 166:13

283:11 499:18

501:11

caking 515:5

Cal 3:14 35:13

calcium 72:14 73:2

74:6,9 368:8

calcium-based

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calculated 98:22

calculating 400:1

calculation 232:15

calf 16:12

calf-grazing 16:14

California 7:12

27:8 35:22 107:12

111:10 125:6

126:1 128:6,18,21

149:3 168:2 211:9

367:7 481:15

call 3:2 84:18

116:18,18 117:19

133:16 146:13

201:17 243:13

313:7 477:15

479:20 491:22

514:9

called 13:22 70:14

134:10 180:13

205:17 248:16

297:19 324:11

349:5 380:10,14

383:10 424:20

429:3,8 443:6

516:9

calling 178:5

calls 147:19 536:11

539:19

Callyn 9:24 521:9

521:11 525:3

calming 373:3

calves 16:10 18:15

439:4

Calvin 262:6

Cameo 156:18

campaign 115:17

Canada 122:22

123:3,6,10 137:14

Canadian 24:16

123:13 131:3

185:13 350:11

Canal 430:2

cancers 415:1

canola 113:20

canyon 206:9

capable 138:14

capacities 207:7

capacity 214:8

capital 49:9 50:8

335:19

CAPP 72:14 73:1

73:19,20 74:5,9

74:17 75:22 76:2

capricious 277:13

capture 533:8

captured 316:20

captures 506:10

carbohydrate

228:1

carbohydrates

228:5,9 229:4

carbon 191:12

414:3 511:4

care 24:3 141:14

177:16 238:7

391:9 393:5,6

394:4,10,19

400:15 432:12

453:5 467:3

470:22 471:5

cared 393:1

careful 265:21

389:17 415:3

416:19

carefully 190:1

258:15 318:2

320:6 510:17

530:19,21 531:6

carnivorous 98:8

98:10 100:11

364:7 365:3

Carolina 145:4

481:16
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carpet 491:7

Carrie 8:16 438:2

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carried 499:14

carrier 514:2

Carruth 5:12

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189:1,2 192:18

193:1,9,19 194:1

194:12 196:8,18

carry 70:6 71:1,5

160:9 229:17

246:7 392:5

carrying 351:9

Carter 5:8 167:12

175:2,3 178:3,18

179:19 182:12

183:7

cartridge 108:11

CAS 295:8

case 40:20 113:4

177:6 178:21

201:19 204:16

205:22 207:4

246:15 373:1

410:13 412:21,21

426:4 448:18

510:5 511:12

cases 31:9 147:9

169:2 197:10

201:16 369:1

390:10 452:17

482:6 517:20

522:3

case-by-case 98:6

cat 180:13 388:8

catch 536:16

categories 42:20

51:19 179:6

303:17 453:2,19

category 51:10

52:7 53:3 77:12

126:4 129:6,14

147:10 151:15

177:4,9 178:2,12

178:21 179:8,13

179:14,17 180:16

182:15 183:8

291:5 295:2,7

326:22 329:10

538:6,18

Catfish 366:15

Cathy 7:4 342:8

348:20,22

cats 79:17 181:12

cattle 6:23 7:22 8:2

184:17 333:2

336:19 344:15,16

344:17 396:6

439:2 448:16

caught 216:17

cause 42:22 109:13

394:21 425:7

caused 510:8

causes 15:8 79:4

271:17

caution 14:19

CCOF 5:17 6:3,18

127:11,18 207:21

207:22 209:1,13

209:20 263:10

266:14 315:14

523:6

CCOF's 209:8,15

Cedar 9:9 486:20

celebrated 51:2

Celestial 7:24

403:1

cellar 109:18

cell-to-cell 278:13

Center 283:15

centers 481:15,18

central 451:16

482:12 518:2

CEO 152:5

cereal 112:9

certain 84:10 169:4

169:9 204:14

226:20 232:11

289:7 332:15

334:17 371:17

373:3 395:3

444:10 498:16

514:19 538:2

certainly 183:2

193:12 201:13

246:7 258:17

359:15

certifiable 356:22

certificate 308:4

certification 5:17

12:14 66:17 98:5

99:10 162:9,9

165:12 207:21,22

209:9 210:12

211:16 212:21

213:4 263:10,11

263:21 264:1

271:6 284:8 305:1

334:15 343:4

366:11 406:8

407:12,21 415:17

434:15 435:1,6,12

437:6 438:5

440:17 458:1

529:20 530:9

certifications

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certification-type

529:13

certified 5:6 8:6

14:11 22:12 42:5

54:14 65:19 66:1

66:3 70:3 107:10

112:8 113:19

128:2 129:7 146:3

146:4 148:21

152:6 158:22

167:17,18 184:3,4

197:2 209:15

215:18 242:8

283:17 284:15

288:3 348:2

349:14 364:6,10

380:1 394:9

415:18 417:12

438:7 439:16

440:4,5,9,10

443:7 452:15

470:15 514:20

526:3,4 528:5,22

532:13 537:21

certifier 20:3,11,13

49:15,18 104:13

211:12,18 212:2

222:7 239:17

240:17 241:8

242:20 270:16

307:22 316:6

383:9 418:1

437:17,18

certifiers 8:13

11:20 12:1,8

14:17 15:8 19:10

20:5 105:14

123:16,21 138:10

189:10 208:1,18

209:3,7,20,21

210:1,4 215:11,19

221:10 222:15

223:15,19,22

225:4 240:16

241:13 242:8

267:1,3 270:22

271:4,18 275:21

306:10 308:3,6

311:14 312:4,15

313:2 391:14

433:4 446:16

525:18 527:12

528:2,18

certify 12:2 71:9

208:2 240:17

242:21 311:14,16

363:22

certifying 44:16,21

45:3 221:2 223:1

224:5 250:12

434:21

cetera 138:18

457:16 514:2

CFR 15:22 79:11

294:11 403:14

CFRs 88:8 91:18

92:1 356:22

chagrined 424:7

chain 204:2 518:4

Chair 3:3 11:3

12:19 13:3,11

17:15 19:19 20:18

21:6,18,20 25:8

26:11 28:1,3

31:20,22 32:3

33:15 34:13 35:3

35:8 38:12,14,22

39:4,7,10 40:13

41:1,6,12,19

45:11,14 46:2

47:4 48:6 49:11

50:15 53:21 54:2

55:3 56:8 57:8

58:15,19 63:10,14

63:16 64:10 67:21

68:2,8 70:17 72:4

72:9 75:19 76:8

76:18 77:16,21

81:13 83:2,4

84:14 85:12,17

86:5 89:9,13,21

93:8,20 95:3

96:12 97:3 100:9

100:13,19,21

104:3,21 106:1,20

107:3 110:20

111:1,5,7,22

112:4 115:22

117:15 118:20

119:2 120:17,21

121:6 124:11

128:8,14 129:16

130:11 133:19

134:2 135:12

137:2 138:19

139:14 142:18

143:10 144:13

145:16,18 149:7

150:6,18 151:3,13

151:19 152:1

155:11,13 157:10

158:1,7,9 162:5

162:12,15 164:5,7

167:5,11 171:14

173:16 174:20

177:17 180:5
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yesterday 19:22

24:11 34:6 36:15

67:13 88:4,11

103:13 130:16

137:18 139:10

168:5 173:22

189:5 218:11

220:5 231:4

261:11 262:1

264:6,13 273:13

305:10,20 306:21

314:14 374:2

398:12 422:15

523:2

yesterday's 131:7

131:20 264:16

326:20

yield 190:17 372:17

Yipes 368:12

Yoder 452:2

yolks 513:15

yonder 367:17

York 50:22 51:1

170:17 389:14

498:7

young 333:7

400:10 496:17

497:11

younger 399:17

Z

Z 270:20,21

Zareb 7:24 396:1

402:16,22

Zea 6:18 203:3,11

304:16,17 315:10

315:13 319:8

Zealand 154:11

zero 29:15 195:14

518:16

Zuck 5:6 164:8

167:11,13,13

171:16 172:3,7,21

173:2,21

$

$3 120:11

$42 490:20

0

0019 320:3

01 150:1

1

1 12:10 39:22 65:18

65:22 66:2 123:18

286:13 453:2

459:12,12 460:16

1st 44:14 51:3

1,000 80:8 143:20

1.2 63:9,11

1.5 31:10 66:4

123:17

1:00 251:19 260:5

1:13 260:8 261:2

10 30:12 35:2 54:19

60:13 61:15 126:6

126:12 194:7,18

195:3,10 196:6

205:16 260:5

341:7,8 386:5

447:17 464:16,17

464:18 480:17

10,000 59:18 65:22

66:2 140:14

10-member 361:4

10-minute 370:2

10-parts-per-mill...

150:13

10-week 341:7

10:04 121:5

100 22:10 25:5

28:11 34:10 40:10

54:22 55:6 56:21

125:18 184:2

200:2 209:16

212:13 270:4

335:2 364:20

401:1 425:18

452:12 453:10,11

465:13 486:10

509:18

100,000 65:18

380:19

101 4:9

104.2 300:4 301:13

1040 528:15

107 4:11 301:14

107.100 103:20

300:9 301:14

109.1 103:19

11 3:2,4 227:9

11-12 391:13

112 4:13 126:17

115 209:16

118 126:17

118.4 79:11

12 16:22 23:1,4,7

24:4 28:9 60:1,21

127:20 176:10

183:9 254:5 331:9

396:8 439:4

539:11

12,000 31:8

12:10 251:19

12:14 260:7

120-day 104:7

121 4:14

124 4:16

12866 249:11,16

250:8

13 3:7,8 28:12

34:10 60:2,9,21

285:1

130 4:18

133 126:8

139 4:19

14 86:9 331:9 339:7

466:22 470:16

515:11

145 4:21

1450 29:21 30:17

15 127:22 189:8

327:14 365:3

450:8 464:11,12

491:3 528:17

15,433 197:10

15-minute 120:22

15-year-old 34:4

150 145:10 401:4

450:1 511:21

1500 66:14

1514 1:11

152 4:24

158 5:2

16 364:14 375:2

429:19

1600 65:2

164 5:4

166 149:16

167 5:6

17 247:2 368:21

17th 538:14

175 5:8

18 25:11 29:8 247:2

256:16,17 340:8

491:2

18th 539:12

18-inch 80:8

180.950 294:11

183 5:10

1865 30:18

189 5:12

19 464:9

1920s 65:14

196 5:14

1960 30:20

1970s 30:17

1980 184:4

1982 481:13

1983-84 391:3

1986 42:17 148:14

1989 184:6

1990 78:16 125:12

1993 315:20 526:3

1994 315:15

1995 103:21 179:7

179:20 326:7

355:15,19 360:1

419:19

1996 227:20 315:15

525:16

1997 22:11 107:8

284:8

1999 458:22

2

2 40:2 273:6 380:13

458:14

2nd 233:5

2,000 59:19 60:11

381:15

2.2 153:13

2.5 450:2

2:56 370:6

20 22:7 59:19 62:6

147:22 173:12

189:13 194:6,9,12

194:17 195:3

242:9 331:15
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 615

332:6 365:3 368:2

447:14 450:8

465:12 470:8

534:20

20th 13:10

20,000 248:12

396:6

200 287:5 327:15

396:5,7 442:14

2000 86:3 419:19

490:15

2002 250:21 251:9

286:10 460:20,22

2003 80:16 452:10

2005 86:4 252:3

261:19 330:9

355:3

2006 294:11 355:4

2007 138:22

2008 98:4 175:12

176:10 257:22

303:16 429:13,18

2009 78:21 235:17

305:5 355:6

2010 80:1 127:13

153:12 252:3

433:13 452:16

482:7 538:11,14

2011 1:8 11:7 44:14

252:12 258:3

524:18 539:12

2012 154:9,21

452:17

2014 153:8 155:4

319:16

205.204 308:11

205.601 294:7

296:19 307:17

205.601(k) 460:1

205.605(a) 537:16

538:19

205.605(b) 403:7

207 5:16

21 3:10 79:11

515:12

21st 154:21

2120(f) 78:17

216 5:18

22 62:13 515:12

225 5:19

23rd 51:2

236 5:21

24 294:16 332:5

2400 208:2

249 5:23

25 74:5 78:8 99:16

331:15 332:6

364:17 447:11

250 147:8 425:18

2500 99:18

251 5:25

26 276:14

262 6:2

268 6:4

27 286:4

273 533:15

276 6:6

28 1:8 3:12 77:8

97:6 124:21

282 6:8

285 6:9

287 6:11

29 77:8

291 6:13

297 6:14

3

3 154:3 287:3

323:16 324:21

504:20

3,000 82:6 208:3

3:13 370:7

30 28:9 35:20 69:1

104:7 124:20

184:1,8 194:7

195:2,4 452:18

531:11

30,000 147:9

390:13 501:1

30-year 32:13

186:4

300 28:11 34:9

482:1

304 6:16

31 60:1,9,10

315 6:18

325 6:19

327 430:7

329 6:21

332 6:23

337 6:25

342 7:2

348 7:4

35 3:13 51:7 139:22

383:11,17 450:7

353 7:6

363 7:8

366 7:11

37 73:11 237:1

370 7:13

374 7:14

377 7:17

38 124:20

381 15:22

384,000 452:17

386 7:18

389 7:21

395 7:22

399 7:24

4

4 31:9 124:2 127:18

144:7 307:5

323:14 324:7

504:20

4's 324:22

4,000 378:7

4:57 480:19

40 287:4 294:11

510:6 517:12

533:16

400,000 490:17

405 8:2

410 8:4

415 8:5

419 8:7

42 3:15

423 8:9

428 8:10

43 77:9 447:4 476:8

501:11

432 8:12

437 8:14

442 8:16

445 8:18

448 8:20

45 212:12

450,000 153:18

451 8:21

456 8:23

46,000 288:4

463 9:2

47 153:21

471 9:4

480 9:6

483 80:2

486 9:8

489 9:11

49 153:15 155:17

156:9

497 9:14

5

5 12:1 90:14,17,18

92:3 99:1 144:7

209:14 371:10

396:21

5,000 248:13 482:2

5-foot 80:8

5:11 480:20

50 3:17 29:10 31:9

83:18 140:18

191:11 227:10

442:15 465:12

467:15

50,000 82:8

50-hour 229:14

500 396:22 460:16

534:10

501 9:15

508 9:17

51 156:1,13

512 9:20

516 9:22

521 9:24

525 10:9

531 10:13

536 10:16

541 10:22

55 77:14

58 3:18

580 438:7

6

6 144:10

6:06 541:21

60 36:4 141:8 191:9

330:6

60,000 286:6

60-day 13:9

600 184:9

601 312:20

601(j)(9) 503:21

605 312:21

605(a) 305:15,16

605(b) 507:5

606 256:2,8

613,000 98:18

64 3:20

65 29:5 99:16 287:3

65,000 482:6

650 19:3

68,000 286:7

7

7,000 476:18

70 368:20

72 3:22

75 443:2

77 127:12

78 3:23 405:1

8

8,000-year 28:14

28:21 31:7

8:00 1:10 11:2

541:18

80 365:11

800 476:12

82 460:20 486:9

85 4:2 331:1,5

87 389:15

9

9 15:22

9:42 121:4
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 616

9:56 121:1,2

90 25:5 73:6 331:1

337:2 510:4

914 501:2

93 128:20

95 4:6 54:14 211:17

501:12

97 4:8

98 501:13
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

617

National Organic Standards Board

USDA

04-28-11

Seattle, WA