1 

NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1716 14TH ST., N.W., STE 200 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com 

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

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SPRING 2023 MEETING

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PUBLIC COMMENT WEBINAR

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TUESDAY

APRIL 18, 2023

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The Board met via Videoconference, at 

12:00 p.m. EDT, Nathan Powell-Palm, Chair, 

presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: 

NATHAN POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

AMY BRUCH, Secretary

BRIAN CALDWELL

JERRY D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

NATE LEWIS

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

FRANKLIN QUARCOO

KYLA SMITH

WOOD TURNER
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NOP STAFF PRESENT: 

DR. JENNIFER TUCKER, Deputy Administrator, 

Agricultural Marketing Service (AMS); 

Designated Federal Official

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

ERIN HEALY, Director, Standards Division

ANDREA HOLM, Agricultural Marketing Specialist
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 12:05 p.m.

3 DR. TUCKER: Thank you, Michelle. 

4 Hello everyone. I'm Jenny Tucker, Deputy 

5 Administrator of the National Organic Program. 

6 Welcome to all our National Organic Standards 

7 Board members and our audience. We continue to 

8 be grateful in our ability to engage in these 

9 virtual sessions, which connect us through both 

10 time and space.

11 I would particularly like to welcome 

12 our two new Board members, Franklin Quarcoo from 

13 Tuskegee University in Alabama, and Nathaniel or 

14 Nate Lewis from Washington Farmland Trust in 

15 Washington state. They just recently joined the 

16 Board, and let's give them a Zoom round of 

17 applause like this. Welcome.

18 To our public commenters, thank you 

19 again for engaging in this process with us. I 

20 also thank our audience. You continue to be an 

21 important part of the public meeting process. 

22 This webinar opens two days of public webinars 
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1 this week. We then reconvene next week in 

2 Atlanta, Georgia in person.

3 We also plan to livestream 

4 that meeting as we did last fall. Meeting access 

5 information for all meeting segments is posted on 

6 the NOSB meeting page on the USDA website. 

7 Transcripts for all segments will be posted once 

8 completed. This meeting, like all other meetings 

9 of the National Organic Standards Board, will be 

10 run based on the Federal Advisory Committee Act 

11 and the Board's policies and procedures manual.

12 I will act as the Designated Federal 

13 Officer for meeting segments. Nate Powell Palm, 

14 our Board chair, will take the helm for this 

15 session. We remind everyone that in an open, 

16 transparent process mutual respect is critical. 

17 We ask you in advance to avoid personal attacks 

18 and disparagement. 

19 This extends also to chats you share. 

20 Even if you disagree with a speaker's position, 

21 in a public process they deserve the same grace 

22 and respect you would want for yourself. To 
5

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1 close, I thank the National Organic Program team, 

2 an amazing team that I'm honored to work with 

3 every day. So Michelle Arsenault, Jared Clark, 

4 Andrea Holm, Johanna Mirenda, and our Standards 

5 Director, Erin Healy.

6 I also want to introduce Fred David, 

7 our new Assistant Director of Standards, who 

8 comes to us from a sister agency at USDA. Let's 

9 give the Board, the NOP staff, the audience and 

10 all of our speakers a big round of applause. 

11 Thank you to all of you.

12 I'm going to now hand the mic back to 

13 Michelle, who will a roll call of NOSB members 

14 and NOP staff. Thank you all for being here.

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you Jenny. All 

16 right, Board members. If you could shout out 

17 verbally. There's a whole lot of people on my 

18 screen now, and I can't see you all. Amy Bruch.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: I'm here.

20 MS. ARSENAULT: Good, welcome. Brian 

21 Caldwell.

22 MEMBER CALDWELL: Here.
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Brian. Jerry 

2 D'Amore.

3 MEMBER D'AMORE: Good morning, here as 

4 well.

5 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning Jerry. 

6 Carolyn Dimitri.

7 MEMBER DIMITRI: Good afternoon.

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Carolyn. Kim 

9 Huseman.

10 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hello. 

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Kim. Mindee 

12 Jeffery.

13 MEMBER JEFFERY: Good morning.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Mindee. Allison 

15 Johnson.

16 MEMBER JOHNSON: Good morning.

17 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome. Nate Lewis.

18 MEMBER LEWIS: The spacebar thing 

19 didn't work, present.

20 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome Nate. Yeah, 

21 it doesn't always work. Dilip Nandwani.

22 MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning.
7

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1 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Dilip. 

2 Logan Petrey.

3 MEMBER PETREY: Here.

4 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello Logan, welcome. 

5 Nate Powell-Palm.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Present, good 

7 morning.

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello, hello. 

9 Franklin Quarcoo.

10 MEMBER QUARCOO: Here.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Excellent. Welcome, 

12 Franklin. Kyla Smith.

13 MEMBER SMITH: I'm here. Hi 

14 everybody.

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello Kyla. Wood 

16 Turner.

17 MEMBER TURNER: Here, good morning.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Wood, 

19 and Javier Zamora. I believe Javier's not going 

20 to be with us today, but I didn't want to ignore 

21 him on the list. All right. Javier is absent 

22 today, so for the transcriptionist. Jenny 
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1 already introduced the NOP staff, so I won't do 

2 that again. Instead, I'm going to turn it over 

3 to you Nate, to get the meeting started.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well 

5 happy spring everybody. I am so excited to see 

6 all of your smiling faces, and even more excited 

7 to see you all next week in person in Atlanta. 

8 So we have a slide, I think that is coming up 

9 here.

10 All right. So all speakers will be --

11 sorry. All speakers who will be recognized 

12 signed up during the registration period. 

13 Persons must give their names and affiliations 

14 for the record at the beginning of their public 

15 comment. Proxy speakers are not permitted.

16 Individuals providing public comments 

17 shall refrain from making any personal attacks 

18 or remarks that might impugn the character of any 

19 individual. Members of the public are asked to 

20 define clearly and succinctly the issues they 

21 wish to present before the Board.

22 This will give the NOSB members a 
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1716 14TH ST., N.W., STE 200

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1 comprehensible understanding of these speakers' 

2 concerns. I will be -- I will call on speakers 

3 in the order of the schedule and will announce 

4 the next person or two, so they can prepare. 

5 We're going to say the speaker's name and then on 

6 deck, and then in the hole as number three. 

7 Bringing a little colloquial barrel racing to 

8 this experience.

9 Please remember to state your name and

10 affiliation, and then we'll start the timer. 

11 Board members will indicate to me if they have 

12 questions, and I will call on them and Board 

13 members, please just use the raised hand feature 

14 and if I don't hear you, give me a shout out and 

15 I will make sure we get over to you. Only NOSB 

16 members are allowed to ask questions.

17 Our first speaker is going to be Ellie 

18 Hudson, with Marni Karlin on deck and Michael 

19 Crotser in the hole. So any questions from the 

20 Board before we get started off? Alrightee. 

21 Well with that, let's get kicked off with Ellie 

22 Hudson. Ellie, please state your affiliation and 
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1 we'll start the timer.

2 MS. HUDSON: Ellie Hudson, Executive 

3 Director with Accredited Certifiers Association 

4 or ACA. 

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go right ahead.

6 MS. HUDSON: Hello NOSB members, NOP 

7 and members of the organic community. I'm Ellie 

8 Hudson. I work remotely from Traverse City, 

9 Michigan, which occupies illegally taken 

10 ancestral lands of the Neshnabek Three Fires 

11 Confederacy of Ojibwe, Odawa and Potawatomi 

12 people. 

13 ACA is a non-profit that exists to 

14 benefit the accredited organic certifier 

15 community and the organic industry. We envision 

16 a world in which the USDA organic label is always 

17 trusted and valued. Our mission is to ensure 

18 consistent implementation of the regulation 

19 through collaboration and education.

20 Today I'd like to share some of ACA's 

21 strategic priorities in our mission of service. 

22 Broadly, we look to develop certifier resources 
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1 that can alleviate the pressure often germane to 

2 a regulatory environment, and we proactively seek 

3 ways to add, improve and innovate the value of 

4 ACA membership.

5 Currently, a lot of discussion is 

6 about the Strengthening Organic final rule or 

7 SOE. With funding from a cooperative agreement 

8 between NOP and ACA, we are aiming to quickly 

9 create many avenues for collaboration, discussion 

10 and alignment around SOE. We are generating new 

11 resources and best practices through several 

12 working groups.

13 One early focus will be personnel 

14 training and qualification or Section H of the 

15 rule. A needs assessment will inform which 

16 resources are most valuable for implementing the 

17 requirements, while minimizing administrative 

18 responsibilities for certifiers and their teams.

19 Also funded through our cooperative 

20 agreement, we are partnering with the 

21 International Organic Inspectors Association or 

22 IOIA around mentorship of aspiring organic 
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1 inspectors. A 2023 mentor cohort will be formed 

2 through a request for proposal from qualified 

3 inspectors.

4 Mentors will be compensated for 

5 tracking activity toward developing a mentor job 

6 task analysis. The data collected will assist us 

7 in creating new resources. We may be able to 

8 adapt this pilot program into a long term 

9 solution for addressing the persistent shortage 

10 of available mentorships.

11 The ACA Board also identified a 

12 strategic need to better understand our 

13 supportive membership category, available for 

14 those who are not accredited certifiers, but have 

15 an interest in supporting ACA's mission. We are 

16 committed to continuous improvement of member 

17 benefits for this and all categories. 

18 These initiatives will all be 

19 delivered and assisted against a backdrop of 

20 envisioning an environment where barriers and 

21 implicit bias have been eliminated, and where 

22 everyone has the resources they need to live up 
13

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1 to their full potential.

2 In closing, I thank the NOSB for the 

3 opportunity to offer this comment. Going first 

4 today, means I can be the first to thank you for 

5 giving your expertise, time and more, of which we 

6 all benefit. Thank you.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Any 

8 questions from the Board for Ellie. Amy, please 

9 go ahead.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: Ellie, thank you for 

11 kicking us off here with our public comment 

12 process. I really appreciated your information 

13 and just kind of the status update you provided 

14 on implementation of SOE. That's on everybody's, 

15 you know, short list of just, you know, trying to 

16 wrap our heads around it and then get ready to 

17 execute it.

18 I was just curious. On the certifiers 

19 located abroad, how is the outreach happening for 

20 them? I know they are members or most of them 

21 are members of ACA. But I just wondered, just to 

22 make sure that a consistent implementation is 
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1 happening, not only on our shores but globally as 

2 well.

3 MS. HUDSON: Yeah, I didn't mention 

4 our international outreach efforts, but we do, 

5 have placed a strategic priority on that. The 

6 member -- accredited certifiers that are members 

7 of ACA receive a lot of communication from us as 

8 a matter of course through newsletters and things 

9 like that.

10 We also discovered recently a fixed 

11 something that was plaguing access in specific 

12 countries. There's not much we can do about 

13 countries like China, where the barrier is coming 

14 internally. But we were -- our website was not -

15 - we weren't able to access everything, some 

16 members couldn't and we recently resolved that, 

17 which is kind of exciting.

18 And then for NOP supported activity, 

19 we work with Robert and David and their teams to 

20 make sure that like anything that's funded 

21 through this cooperative agreement is available 

22 to all accredited certifiers, so that 
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1 communications get out. NOP helps us with that.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, I appreciate 

3 that.

4 MS. HUDSON: Yeah, me too.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

6 questions from the Board?

7 All right, Ellie, we really appreciate 

8 your time. Thank you. Next up we've got Marni 

9 Karlin, with Michael Crotser on deck and Heather 

10 Spalding in the hole. Marni, the floor is yours.

11 MS. KARLIN: Thanks. Hi, I'm Marni 

12 Karlin and I am also here today on behalf of the 

13 Accredited Certifiers Association. I want to 

14 thank you all again for the opportunity to 

15 comment today. I'm pleased to share with NOSB 

16 members the NOP and the organic community as a 

17 whole, a little bit more about the work that ACA 

18 is doing in service of consistency and 

19 collaboration and organic certification.

20 I first want to talk a minute about 

21 our new lunch and learning series. We launched 

22 this last month and we're hosting a series of one 
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1 hour sessions on topics of critical importance to 

2 the entire inspection and certification 

3 community, and the series is open not just to ACA 

4 members but to inspectors and certifiers across 

5 the board.

6 Last month, over 200 certification and 

7 inspection professionals participated in a deep 

8 dive into SOE, helping to identify areas of the 

9 rule, where they have questions or saw value in 

10 collaboration on best practices and other work 

11 products. The appetite for this conversation was 

12 huge, and the responses generated have given us a 

13 roadmap for our SOE work, which Ellie highlighted 

14 a little bit and I'll talk a little bit about as 

15 well.

16 Upcoming lunch and learns include one 

17 to present the newly developed livestock 

18 directive cross-check template for certifiers. 

19 This one assured that certifiers' cross-check 

20 requests to each other are consistent, efficient, 

21 clear and reflect the NOP livestock directive

22 requirements.
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1 We'll also offer a lunch and learn 

2 diving into the personnel training and 

3 qualification requirements, as Ellie discussed 

4 briefly a minute ago. As you can tell, this year 

5 we're focusing a lot on providing value to 

6 certifiers and inspectors surrounding SOE 

7 implementation. 

8 We also plan to host a deep dive into 

9 Section A interpretation, questions related to 

10 certification and extensions, as well as efforts 

11 on meeting supply chain traceability 

12 requirements, and understanding the nitty-gritty 

13 of certificate generation in the OID.

14 But of course it's not all SOE all the 

15 time. Related to some of the transition efforts, 

16 we are working to identify and then address the 

17 barriers that organic and transitioning producers 

18 face in accessing non-NOP USDA resources. It 

19 could be challenging for organic and 

20 transitioning producers to access resources at 

21 USDA that live outside of NOP.

22 They can face duplicative paperwork 
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1 requirements, staff who may not always understand 

2 organic, their centralized resource hub, and a 

3 bureaucracy that at times makes it easier for 

4 producers to give up than to pursue the crop 

5 insurance, conservation or FSA supports for which 

6 they qualify.

7 So our group is diving into these 

8 barriers and trying to develop solutions that 

9 could help to ease those barriers and increase 

10 that access for organic and transitioning 

11 producers. We look forward to reporting back on 

12 what the group does soon.

13 In closing, I would like to thank you 

14 again for the opportunity to comment today, and 

15 in particular I'd like to thank each of the NOSB 

16 members for choosing to serve our organic 

17 community in this way. I know that at times your 

18 service may feel under-appreciated, and I want to 

19 be certain to say we appreciate you and thank 

20 you.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, we 

22 appreciate that. Thank you very much for your 
19

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1 comments Marni. Any questions from the Board? 

2 All right. Thank you so much, Marni. Oh, I'm 

3 sorry, one moment. Kim, please go ahead.

4 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate. 

5 Sorry for the late hand there, and thank you 

6 Marni for your comments today. Can you tell me, 

7 what would you say -- I know you're waiting for 

8 the report back, but just initial high level, 

9 what would you say would be one of the most 

10 glaringly obvious transition barriers for farmers 

11 today that you are looking to help bridge?

12 MS. KARLIN: That's a great question, 

13 and of course you're right. We're working with 

14 our working group of certifiers and inspectors. 

15 We're hearing from also producers. We're going 

16 to engage with USDA to make sure we're getting a 

17 well-rounded assessment.

18 So I'll frame all of what I'm about to 

19 say in the context of I really want to work 

20 through the process and hear what folks say, and 

21 I will not avoid your question. And so I will 

22 say you know I think one of the things that I --
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1 that we are hearing, and maybe I mean two of the 

2 things that we're hearing that are barriers for 

3 both transitioning farmers and existing organic 

4 farmers in accessing NOP resources.

5 One is around duplicative paperwork 

6 requirements, and the idea that if we could only 

7 figure out a way to write something down once and 

8 sort of use it across USDA, wouldn't that sort of 

9 make it easier and shouldn't be we be able to 

10 figure that out. So that's one piece that I'm 

11 hearing a lot of.

12 Another piece I'm hearing a lot of is 

13 around how tough it can be sometimes for 

14 producers to navigate resources living in all 

15 different places, right? Different websites, 

16 different phone numbers, different people to talk 

17 to, etcetera. 

18 And while I don't believe that we can 

19 solve necessarily sort of the silos that live by 

20 virtue of just how large USDA is, I do think we 

21 can think about some sort of centralized resource 

22 hub that folks can go one place to find all of 
21

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1 the places they need to go.

2 So those are the things I am hearing 

3 so far, but I do want to make sure that I say 

4 again that I'm looking forward to hearing more 

5 from the folks who are really engaging this on 

6 the ground.

7 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Fair enough. Thank 

8 you. I really appreciate your response.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan has a 

10 question for you.

11 MEMBER PETREY: Hi. Thank you Marni 

12 for coming on. I appreciate that. I am curious. 

13 Are you giving the producers -- are you asking 

14 producers or certifiers or inspectors about the 

15 transitioning?

16 MS. KARLIN: So where we're starting 

17 is a working group with certifiers and 

18 inspectors. But we have on our list to make sure 

19 we hear from producers, and we're kind of 

20 navigating right now, okay how do we -- how do we 

21 best do that to get a representative set? Do we 

22 go through certifiers and inspectors to figure 
22

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1 out who to talk to, etcetera. So that's a next 

2 step that we haven't put into play yet.

3 MEMBER PETREY: And I was going to ask 

4 too, are the -- when you ask what are the 

5 barriers, do you have list of central barriers, 

6 or are they open-ended and people just opt in?

7 MS. KARLIN: So the first meeting that 

8 we had, the first conversation that we had about 

9 this, it was open-ended. I didn't sort of cede 

10 anything because I didn't want to influence 

11 anything, and now I'm taking what has been given 

12 to us and I'm using that and I'm continuing to 

13 ask the question, and I'm using what we've heard, 

14 you know, in the conversation.

15 But the very first I didn't precede 

16 anything, because I didn't want to influence it 

17 with my thoughts.

18 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

20 questions for Marni? All right. Oh Carolyn, 

21 please go ahead.

22 MEMBER DIMITRI: Oh hi Marni, it's 
23

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1 good to see you. This is a topic that I've 

2 thought quite a bit about, and I wonder, the 

3 hardest part is to find the right producers to 

4 talk to, and like really how do you identify 

5 producers who might want to transition and 

6 actually haven't made any like steps forward.

7 So I'm just wondering if you can give 

8 a little bit more background about how you're 

9 really trying to reach that particular very hard 

10 to find group. Thank you.

11 MS. KARLIN: And thank you, and it's 

12 good to see you too. You know, I think I don't 

13 have an answer to that yet I think right now, 

14 because we are thinking about this work not only 

15 in the context of transitioning producers, but 

16 also existing organic producers.

17 So we have, we don't have an answer to 

18 that yet. I will say that one of my thoughts is 

19 to engage with those regional leads across the 

20 Transition to Organic Partnership Program, who 

21 probably have a closer handle on what's going on 

22 in their regions, and have probably dove a little 
24

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1 further into this question of how do we get to 

2 folks and how do we match folks up in farmer to 

3 farmer mentoring and those sorts of things.

4 So I think, rather than recreate the 

5 wheel, that would be a good resource for us to 

6 turn to first.

7 MEMBER DIMITRI: Thank you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

9 ahead.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: Hi Marni, so nice to 

11 see you. Carolyn's comment actually made me 

12 think of this. This topic is really near and 

13 dear to a lot of our hearts, is the barrier to 

14 transition and then, you know, the continuancy of 

15 organic producers to stay into the program.

16 I wonder, do you have access to 

17 information that shows how many acres are not 

18 getting renewed into organic, and then being able 

19 to deep dive into those producers, to then ask 

20 them questions, why they are not continuing on 

21 with their certification. I feel like that's a 

22 valuable resource right there, to just go into 
25

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1 our network and see what those numbers are and 

2 how they fluctuate potentially.

3 MS. KARLIN: That is super4 interesting. I have not -- in my thinking about 

5 what's keeping folks from the non-NOP USDA 

6 programs, kind of I have not been thinking about 

7 that. I've been thinking a lot about how do we, 

8 how do we figure out in your world of organic 

9 producers who ought to be getting more support 

10 from NRCS or RMA and FSA and is not, and sort of 

11 why is that, and kind of navigating that path.

12 I like your suggestion too though, and 

13 I think that whether that's squarely in the work 

14 as we've framed it so far, or whether that's a 

15 really important additional step. Why do folks -

16 - whether it's access to other NOP, other USDA 

17 programs or not, why do folks sort of opt out at 

18 some point, and is there something that we could 

19 do to ease that? 

20 That's really interesting. I'm going 

21 to write that down. So I don't have a good 

22 answer for you, but that's a great question.
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, no problem. I 

2 appreciate you looking into this. Thank you.

3 MS. KARLIN: Uh-huh.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison, please go 

5 ahead.

6 MEMBER JOHNSON: --my mute button. 

7 Good morning. Thank you so much, Marni. This is 

8 really exciting to hear, that you're working on 

9 transition and hear more about you're thinking 

10 about it. I'm looking forward to the results 

11 that you pull together.

12 I'm curious. As someone who has sort 

13 of seen the inner workings of USDA from a lot of 

14 different angles, I'd like to hear from you how 

15 you think the NOSB could be most useful here, you 

16 know. There's a lot of action around the Farm 

17 Bill; there's a lot of action through the USDA 

18 Organic Transition Initiative, and I'm real 

19 excited this year to try to put our heads 

20 together to think about what more we can do as an 

21 organic community to feed those efforts through 

22 the NOP and through other channels to USDA.
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1 So I'd love if you have any thoughts 

2 about where we as a board should focus our 

3 attention to be additive to those other channels.

4 MS. KARLIN: That's a great, that's a 

5 great question too, and it's nice to see you. I 

6 think, you know, I don't have a great answer for 

7 it yet. I do think that the NOSB obviously plays 

8 such a critical role in advancing organic policy 

9 and advancing organic across the board, and that 

10 there could be opportunity if we find some 

11 solutions.

12 I don't know what the solutions are 

13 yet, but if we find -- if we identify some 

14 barriers and some potential solutions, and then 

15 there are some bumps in the road in getting those 

16 solutions moved forward, perhaps some pressure 

17 from NOSB. And by pressure, I guess I mean --

18 I've lived in D.C. for too long, so I speak D.C. 

19 sometimes.

20 I just mean, you know, maybe a letter 

21 or maybe some sort of discussion in a meeting 

22 that says hey, this is -- this is important. We 
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1 should do this. Maybe that's the kind of thing 

2 that would, that would kind of loosen the spots 

3 where things were sticky and navigating whether 

4 that's at USDA or whether that's, you know, in 

5 Congress.

6 I think I am -- as someone who has 

7 worked at both of those places, I am hopeful that 

8 we can find some solutions that don't require 

9 Congress to act to try to sort of loosen things 

10 up, and I believe that we can. I mean I believe 

11 that there's stuff that we can do outside of the 

12 Farm Bill and other legislative processes.

13 But stay tuned, because I -- as I, as 

14 we identify what the potential solutions are, I 

15 promise we'll also identify who other organic 

16 stakeholders and voices are who can be kind of 

17 pushing for them if they so desire.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well 

19 thank you very much, Marni. I appreciate your 

20 time.

21 MS. KARLIN: Thanks guys.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 
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1 Michael Crotser, followed by Heather Spalding and 

2 then Amalie Lipstreu. Michael, please go ahead.

3 MR. CROTSER: Good morning, good 

4 afternoon. Can everybody see and hear me?

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

6 MR. CROTSER: That's great. I'm Mike 

7 Crotser. I'm the certification director at CROPP 

8 Cooperative. We appreciate the work of the NOSB 

9 and the NOP to support organic agriculture, and 

10 thank you for the opportunity to speak.

11 It's spring and the grass is growing 

12 and the daffodils have already bloomed. As we 

13 enter a new age of enforcement, it also feels 

14 like a new season for the organic industry. 

15 First, I want to thank the Board's attentiveness 

16 to address human capital management, oversight 

17 improvement to deter fraud, climate-smart 

18 agriculture, sunset review and being the 

19 industry's primary voice at the NOP.

20 We also want to mention the importance 

21 of the NOP organic livestock compliance 

22 initiative, to ensure that ruminant animal 
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1 operations meet the requirements for grazing, 

2 feed, living conditions, health practices and 

3 origin of livestock.

4 From our perspective, it appears that 

5 this endeavor has expanded to assure slaughter 

6 eligibility. Supply chains from farm to 

7 packaging are being looked at to prevent misuse 

8 of the organic seal. This eligibility should be 

9 traced and balanced to origin of livestock 

10 records, livestock lists and health records.

11 Purchasers of live animals should have 

12 certifier-approved fraud prevention measures to 

13 keep non-organic meat from entering the supply 

14 chain. We support enforcement to determine that 

15 livestock are under continuous organic management 

16 from the last third of gestation.

17 The organic beef industry, including 

18 our subsidiary, the organic meat company, will 

19 see direct benefits from enforcement. It's also 

20 the one-year mark since the implementation of the 

21 organic livestock rulemaking, which clearly 

22 aligns with public opinion. 
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1 That being said, we have further work 

2 to swiftly implement the final organic livestock 

3 and poultry standards rule, specifically 

4 addressing livestock living conditions, health 

5 care, humane animal treatment and outdoor access. 

6 This is what the public expects and what the 

7 consumers are looking for.

8 We want to compliment the agency on 

9 the publishing of SOE and its goal to reduce 

10 fraud and improve operational compliance, and to 

11 address the increasing complexity of our supply 

12 chain. From our perspective, we have concerns on 

13 how farmers will adapt to the new rule. 

14 Regulatory support and guidance will be needed 

15 for farmers to develop robust fraud prevention 

16 plans and certifier paperwork will be critical to 

17 achieve these goals.

18 Additionally, increased focus on 

19 traceback and mass balances may take farmers by 

20 surprise. We look to accredited certifiers to 

21 work cooperatively to develop consistent, sound 

22 and sensible templates for these plans.
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1 Finally, I want to thank the NOSB and 

2 the NOP and the organic industry for the time to 

3 speak today, and with that, I'm happy to answer 

4 any questions from the Board.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

6 comments. Any questions for Michael from the 

7 Board?

8 I want to thank you Michael for giving 

9 us a highlight of all that has been accomplished 

10 in this last six months. It's really pretty 

11 incredible, and we wish you well with your 

12 spring.

13 MR. CROTSER: Yep. Thank you 

14 everyone.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Next 

16 up we have Heather Spalding, followed by Amalie 

17 Lipstreu and then Julia Barton. Heather, please 

18 go ahead.

19 MS. SPALDING: Good afternoon Chairman 

20 Powell-Palm and members of the NOSB. I'm Heather 

21 Spalding, Deputy Director of Maine Organic 

22 Farmers and Gardeners Association, MOFGA. We are 
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1 working to create a food system that is healthy 

2 and fair for all. We really appreciate the 

3 opportunity to speak, and thank you so much for 

4 your amazing service.

5 As this is a Farm Bill reauthorization 

6 year, we're supporting several important mark-up 

7 bills related to your work, and we describe those 

8 in our written comments. I'd be happy to 

9 elaborate on that if you have questions, but 

10 generally we want to see restoration of the 

11 organic cost share, reduction of barriers to 

12 organic farming, especially for BIPOC and 

13 historically disadvantaged communities, 

14 addressing the backlog of NOSB recommendations, 

15 emergency support for organic dairy, expanded 

16 research for organic production, support for 

17 climate-smart organic practices, organic literacy 

18 throughout USDA's conservation programs, and 

19 elimination of harm from racist hemp production 

20 laws, and relief for farmers hit with PFAS.

21 We also support federal action to 

22 protect organic farms from pesticide and genetic 
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1 drift, prohibit genetic engineering in organic 

2 agriculture and prohibit hydroponic farming under 

3 the organic label. 

4 Regarding your own work plan, we urge 

5 you continue collaboration with certifiers, to 

6 develop consistent templates and guidance for 

7 interpretation of new rules, restore in-person 

8 oral comments for future NOSB meetings but keep 

9 this online opportunity as well. I appreciate 

10 it, since I wasn't able to be there and I won't 

11 be able to be there next week with you.

12 Promote racial equity and access to 

13 NOSB initiatives, and consider the impact of NOSB 

14 recommendations on historically disadvantaged 

15 communities; initiate discussion on reducing 

16 plastic in organic production. 

17 I also wanted to mention a couple of 

18 things specific to the proposals. We do support 

19 the organic and climate-smart agriculture 

20 proposal, though we do have concerns about the 

21 push for the universal organic system plan, which 

22 may become too simple, lacking opportunity for 
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1 detailed explanations about management practices.

2 We support consistent location 

3 identification, so that inspectors and others can 

4 easily locate a producer, and we wouldn't want 

5 this to be a burden on farmers who would like 

6 clarity on the expected precision location. 

7 We have concerns about using newspaper 

8 and other recycled paper as weed barriers, mulch 

9 or compost. We're not opposing that 

10 recommendation, but we urge ongoing scrutiny to 

11 ensure that paper used for these purposes is free 

12 of plastic, PFAS and other toxic persistent and 

13 bioaccumulative chemicals. 

14 Similarly, we have ongoing concerns 

15 about the use of plastic mulch. Microplastics in 

16 our environment is a serious problem and recovery 

17 of plastic mulch is a challenge. Though we 

18 support relisting plastic mulch and covers, it is 

19 clear that the broader organic community must 

20 develop a plan to find ecologically friendly 

21 alternatives.

22 MOFGA supports (audio interference) 
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1 dish liquid. I'm out of time. I just --

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, finish 

3 up.

4 MS. SPALDING: Okay, thank you so 

5 much. We just wanted to ensure there's a 

6 limitation that only sourced from fish waste 

7 bycatch or basin species. 

8 The last thing I just want to mention 

9 is we continue to work on the impacts of PFAS in 

10 our food and agriculture system, and one thing 

11 that each of you could do is to contact your 

12 members of Congress and encourage their support 

13 for the relief for farmers with the PFAS Act. So 

14 thank you so much for your time and commitment.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. I have 

16 a question from Amy for you.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: Heather, thank you for 

18 your time and your written comments as well. I 

19 really appreciate them and thanks for definitely 

20 shining light on this issue with PFAS. I did 

21 have a question. Are you seeing on the lands 

22 that are contaminated with PFAS, do they also 
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1 have a similar level of contamination with heavy 

2 metals? I see a lot of communication about the 

3 PFAS. I just didn't know with the sludge if 

4 they're going hand in hand, or if they're not 

5 seeing necessarily those correlations.

6 MS. SPALDING: That's a really 

7 important question. I appreciate it. I don't 

8 have a clear answer for you. The focus really 

9 has been on testing for levels of PFAS in the 

10 soil and water, and also in farm products, and 

11 even in the body burdens of the farmers 

12 themselves.

13 But we know that heavy metals, 

14 dioxins, furans, many persistent chemicals have 

15 been used in sludge, you know, or are found in 

16 sludge and also have been used in various 

17 materials historically on farmlands. So it is 

18 very important, but our focus really has been on 

19 PFAS.

20 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you.

21 MS. SPALDING: Uh-huh.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 
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1 questions for Heather? 

2 I have a quick question for you, 

3 Heather.

4 MS. SPALDING: Sure.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Given your very 

6 comprehensive list of items that you are 

7 supporting or that you'd like us to work more on, 

8 could you elevate the one thing that you think 

9 for Maine farmers is most important for keeping 

10 current organic farmers on the land, and driving 

11 demand so that we have market demand for more 

12 farmers, more organic farmers to be on the land? 

13 Could you speak to that at all for your region?

14 MS. SPALDING: Well, I think that 

15 there are several crises that we're facing right 

16 now, and we have a challenge with labor and 

17 training the next generation and the next, the 

18 labor workforce is really important. Addressing 

19 farm labor laws is something that we're 

20 continuing to work on as well.

21 Access to land is incredibly 

22 important. These are bigger issues, so these are 
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1 not to your work with NOSB. But I heard that 

2 that's what you're asking, like the bigger 

3 questions. 

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It is.

5 MS. SPALDING: Okay, and so access to 

6 land, access to labor and also support for 

7 dealing with climate change and the challenges 

8 that come with dramatically shifting weather 

9 patterns. Drought is a huge concern for all of 

10 the sectors of agriculture in Maine.

11 And then I would say that, you know, 

12 we have -- we're a small state. We have a really 

13 good relationship with our, with our public 

14 service providers, with our -- with NRCS, with 

15 the USDA offices. I think that we may, maybe are 

16 not in the same boat that many of the farmers 

17 across the country are, some of the challenges 

18 they're facing with organic literacy, for 

19 example, in the USDA offices and state offices.

20 But we definitely need more support 

21 and we need more resources, technical assistance 

22 and access to capital and access to 
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1 infrastructure. That is, we have invested pretty 

2 heavily in Maine in helping farms scale up their 

3 infrastructure, but there was a program to 

4 distribute $20 million to farmers in Maine. 

5 It went very quickly, and there was 

6 probably closer to $180 million worth of very 

7 legitimate applications needing infrastructure. 

8 So it's all of the above, but we really are 

9 grateful to you for the work that you're doing to 

10 defend the integrity of the organic standards, 

11 because in the end, that's really the most 

12 important thing that farmers have is their label.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We really 

14 appreciate your time. Thank you.

15 MS. SPALDING: Thank you so much.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up with 

17 Amalie Lipstreu, followed by Julia Barton and 

18 then Jay Feldman. Amalie, the floor is yours.

19 MS. LIPSTREU: Thank you, Nate. Good 

20 afternoon. My name is Amalie Lipstreu, and I'm 

21 the Policy Director for the Ohio Ecological Food 

22 and Farm Association. 
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1 As an organization that is a certifier 

2 as well as an educator and a policy shop, we 

3 benefit from input along many areas of the 

4 organic supply chain, from supporting 

5 transitioning producers to utilizing USDA 

6 programming, understanding roadblocks and 

7 opportunities, and often the larger existential 

8 threats to the viability of the National Organic 

9 Program.

10 You're going to hear from a number of 

11 OEFFA farmers this week, sharing important 

12 reflections they have as practitioners. They're 

13 engaged for two reasons. The first is that this 

14 is their livelihood. For our farmers to have a 

15 living into the future, the integrity of organic 

16 agriculture is paramount.

17 But the second reason our farmer 

18 members are engaged is that OEFFA has staff 

19 dedicated to pulling folks together, providing 

20 background materials and fostering discussions. 

21 This takes time and is work we invest in to help 

22 inform both the Board and the NOP.
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1 To foster broader feedback with 

2 additional farmers, please consider the 

3 suggestions presented by my colleague, Julia 

4 Barton, who will be speaking next. Thank you for 

5 keeping organic as climate-smart front and center 

6 on the Board agenda. 

7 It will be incumbent upon all organic 

8 growers and advocates to illustrate how the 

9 holistic suites of synergistic practices that is 

10 organic agriculture provides more than the sum of 

11 its parts. USDA likely will not come easily as 

12 industrial agriculture, which has been more of a 

13 contributing factor than a solution to climate 

14 change. It's still well-entrenched at the 

15 agency.

16 But you are already lifting up the 

17 voluntary and solutions nature of organic. We 

18 thank you for leading the way and encourage your 

19 persistence. And remember, advocating for 

20 organic to be considered climate-smart cannot be

21 done effectively or with moral authority unless 

22 organic agriculture remains a soil-based 
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1 standard.

2 There are likely even fewer studies on 

3 the full life cycle, energy analysis of 

4 hydroponic growing systems than there are studies 

5 showing the climate benefits of organic farming 

6 and ranching. Hydroponic growing systems have a 

7 place, but not in organic or in climate friendly 

8 production. Thank you.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

10 Amalie? And I apologize, I think it's a hard 

11 "A." So Amalie. If I keep getting this wrong, 

12 please correct me.

13 MS. LIPSTREU: Okay.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, please go 

15 ahead.

16 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes, hello. A quick 

17 question in terms of hydroponics not having a 

18 place. Is there any thought that it may not have 

19 the current thought of a place? But I mean would 

20 you -- would one, should one argue hydroponics in 

21 places where you just flat can't grow in the 

22 desert? We've had a very narrow band around the 
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1 world where conventional agriculture actually 

2 works. Outside of that, doesn't hydroponic have 

3 a home?

4 MS. LIPSTREU: I think hydroponic does 

5 have a place. I think that the problem comes if 

6 we try to apply the organic certification moniker 

7 on the hydroponic, and the idea of, you know, 

8 where we're looking or climate-friendly solutions

9 to types of systems approaches that will help 

10 both mitigate and adapt to the climate crisis.

11 We definitely need to lift up organic 

12 systems. I don't think hydroponic necessarily is 

13 something that is a climate friendly practice per 

14 se. I think we do need more full life cycle 

15 analysis of hydroponic production systems to look 

16 at all of the kind of energy demands relative to 

17 production output as well.

18 MEMBER D'AMORE: Well thank you for 

19 that. I would just say that there's -- it's a 

20 big world out there, and to say categorically 

21 that it doesn't have a place is perhaps limiting 

22 what we might be looking at. Thank you very 
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1 much.

2 MS. LIPSTREU: Yeah, and just to be 

3 clear, I said it doesn't have a place in organic 

4 or climate-smart. I didn't say it doesn't have a 

5 place. I said it does have a place.

6 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah, then I -- thank 

7 you. And then I'll correct myself and suggest 

8 that it might have it in those two places too if 

9 we're broader in the way we look at it. Thank 

10 you.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for the 

12 question Jerry, and your time Amalie. Any other 

13 questions from the Board?

14 All right, thank you. Next up, we 

15 have Julia Barton, followed by Jay Feldman and 

16 then Abby Youngblood. Julia, the floor is yours.

17 MS. BARTON: Hi, thank you. Can you 

18 hear me okay?

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah, thank you.

20 MS. BARTON: Okay. My name is Julia 

21 Barton with the Ohio Ecological Food and Farm 

22 Association. We appreciate the opportunity to 
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1 participate in this important public process. We 

2 think this process is so important that we want 

3 to make sure as many organic farmer stakeholders 

4 have the opportunity to participate in as 

5 possible.

6 OEFFA's comments are informed by 

7 several work groups, an organic work group, a 

8 crop insurance work group and the Ohio Organic 

9 Farmer Researcher Network, which we co-facilitate 

10 along with our partners at Central State 

11 University and the Ohio State University.

12 In the past, you have heard from 

13 several OEFFA members and as Amalie said, you'll 

14 hear from some more this week, some new, some 

15 returning. We thank you for holding these 

16 virtual comment opportunities. Let's hold them 

17 in the in-person meeting too.

18 Comments, whether shared in person or 

19 online, should all be treated the same, and the 

20 opportunity for engagement with the Board should 

21 be open in both venues. We also have a few ideas 

22 to help increase access to farmers and community 
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1 members. We ask you to consider the following 

2 suggestions: 

3 We wonder if the open docket could be 

4 put to greater use, to keep the lines of 

5 communication open between the spring and fall 

6 meetings, with questions for the community in 

7 areas where the Board needs more information, 

8 especially at times when farmers are more likely 

9 to be able to participate. We request a 

10 structured opportunity for interaction with the

11 Board in the winter.

12 One OEFFA farmer, Corey Struck, 

13 suggested a winter listening session. Such a 

14 session could be timed to help inform NOSB 

15 meeting materials for the fall meeting. We need 

16 detailed and swiftly published Subcommittee 

17 notes. These would help us to follow along with 

18 the thinking of the Board, and to take time to 

19 discuss ideas amongst our work groups while you 

20 all are discussing them in committee.

21 We need access to the meeting 

22 materials for a longer period of a time ahead of 
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1 comment submission. We are wondering could there 

2 be a soft publishing say, of the discussion 

3 documents and proposals ahead of the Federal 

4 Register notice? We can anticipate the materials 

5 that will be on the agenda, and we can reference 

6 previous information in this regard. 

7 But we cannot anticipate your ideas 

8 when it comes to discussion documents and 

9 proposals. We want to put the time in to provide 

10 you with substantive feedback, and we need more 

11 time with full information in order to do so. As 

12 you know, robust group process and thoughtful 

13 discussion takes a lot of time. 

14 An additional arena in which we need 

15 to increase access has to do with racial equity. 

16 We support NOC's racial equity comments and we 

17 have two specific asks. First, please conduct 

18 anti-racism and cultural sensitivity training for 

19 NOSB members, and secondly, please add racial 

20 equity as a work agenda item under the CACS 

21 Committee.

22 This agenda item is needed to help 
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1 ensure that racial equity is a thread woven 

2 through the many efforts of the NOSB, with the 

3 goal of challenging rather than repeating 

4 patterns of structural racism in USDA programs. 

5 We appreciate your efforts and your (audio 

6 interference) this process increasingly 

7 accessible to stakeholders. Thank you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your

9 comments. Any questions for Julia? Nate, please 

10 go ahead. Oh sorry. Nate, then Allison and Amy.

11 MEMBER LEWIS: Had to find my raised 

12 hand button. Hi Julia, good to see you.

13 MS. BARTON: Hi Nate.

14 MEMBER LEWIS: I'm curious. I've seen 

15 the comments reference the CACS Committee, 

16 Subcommittee for Racial Equity component. I'm 

17 curious the thinking behind that particular 

18 committee as opposed to all the committees or the 

19 policy committee or whatever. I just want to 

20 stand on that a little bit.

21 MS. BARTON: Yeah. We had floated 

22 this previously as potentially like just an 
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1 addenda topic for the whole board, and we had 

2 heard feedback that it might fit better in the 

3 CACS Committee. So we call it CACS. What do you 

4 all call it?

5 MEMBER LEWIS: CACS.

6 MS. BARTON: Okay, CACS. We'll go 

7 with that, yeah. We had heard that it may fit 

8 better over there. So we're open to whatever. 

9 We just -- our experience with working groups as 

10 maybe analogous to your experience with 

11 committees is that when we start sitting around 

12 talking about things together, we figure out a 

13 lot of barriers and solutions. But we'd like to 

14 see some specific attention paid in that regard.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, Allison.

16 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. Thanks so 

17 much for your comments, Julia. I really 

18 appreciate your continued attention to racial 

19 equity, as well as the work that you've been 

20 doing on organic transition, which I'm hoping and 

21 seeing that it's going to be theme today and 

22 throughout this next meeting. 
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1 And I'm curious if you could speak a 

2 little bit to the connections that you see 

3 between needing the Board to focus on racial 

4 equity and how that relates to continuing to 

5 build a strong organic movement.

6 MS. BARTON: Sure. That's a big one. 

7 So the movement is built on the practices of 

8 indigenous peoples all around the world, right, 

9 and they often don't get credit for it because 

10 much of our white supremacist focus is on things 

11 that are written down, and the practices of 

12 indigenous peoples all around the world that are 

13 the foundation of organic agriculture and the 

14 movement are frequently not written. 

15 So we have an inherent bias in terms 

16 of privileging information that's written down. 

17 We forget sometimes to honor the big picture 

18 global organic movement in our discussions that 

19 often focus on specific standards and kind of set 

20 aside the four IFOAM principles. 

21 But I think it's a good reminder to 

22 connect ourselves to the foundations of the 
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1 movement, and honor the work of people that came 

2 long before us and the people that will be here 

3 long after we're gone.

4 So I don't think the connection could 

5 really be any closer. This is just a thing that 

6 we have to spend time on and that we owe it to 

7 ourselves to spend time on, to make our movement 

8 more accessible to all people, including the 

9 people on whose backs it was built.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy has a question 

11 for you.

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Julia, thanks for your 

13 time today. Thanks also for OEFFA's outreach to 

14 farmers and just getting them into the 

15 conversation. That's really important, and I'm 

16 excited to ask them questions later on on some of 

17 the topics, the crop insurance especially.

18 But I wanted to ask, looking 

19 at just standardizing the location, consistent 

20 location information, there was some comments 

21 about members in the community that don't have 

22 access to technology or limited access to 
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1 technology. And you know, there was information 

2 on how addresses are getting, getting collected 

3 from those individuals.

4 I wondered, is it possible to get the 

5 legal addresses? Is that something that is -- is 

6 it common communication structure with folks that 

7 don't have access to technology? Are they still 

8 leveraging the legal address system, the township 

9 range, etcetera?

10 MS. BARTON: Yes. They're a little 

11 bit more about the legal address system. How is 

12 that different from like a typical mailing 

13 address, Amy?

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Oh sure. A mailing 

15 address, you know, could be like 1318 Row B, for 

16 example, where a legal address on a parcel would 

17 be like a township and range, so that that parcel 

18 could be like 3411-1, where you'd have your --

19 just a different method to communicate parcels, 

20 which you know, that's essentially what assessor 

21 is used to identify with the location, and you 

22 pay property tax based on that information, 
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1 etcetera. 

2 And it's the system that, you know, 

3 indirectly is used or directly is used by FSA and 

4 RMA as well.

5 MS. BARTON: Okay, sure. So that 

6 helps me a little bit. I will state first of all 

7 that my colleague, Sal Pinkham, will be speaking 

8 to this topic specifically, and would be a good 

9 person to ask our certification programs 

10 perspective.

11 I will share that in our work groups, 

12 the folks that are working with FSA said it would 

13 be great if the certifiers and the FSA could go 

14 ahead and talk to each other, you know, if USDA 

15 programs could communicate and collaborate. That 

16 was a big, you know, like they'll make us give 

17 you this information again.

18 If we've already registered with FSA, 

19 pull it from their database. And then in terms 

20 of the technology use, we'll have two clean 

21 community members will be commenting on Thursday, 

22 who have, you know, will be speaking their own 
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1 thoughts on this topic.

2 Right now, OEFFA uses primarily 

3 mailing addresses and maps, and those maps are 

4 sometimes FSA maps, NRCS maps, Google maps, 

5 sometimes they're hand drawn. So that's what 

6 we're using presently. But Sal will have a lot 

7 more detailed information on this for you.

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, excellent. 

9 Thanks so much, Julia. I appreciate it.

10 MS. BARTON: Thank you.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee, please go 

12 ahead.

13 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thanks Julia so much 

14 for all your work. To be clear, were you 

15 suggesting earlier that a winter listening 

16 session specifically for farmers could 

17 potentially resolve the tension around the timing 

18 of the meeting and be a great compromise? I'm 

19 not sure if there's a path for that, but we've 

20 got what you were meaning.

21 MS. BARTON: So that was a 

22 recommendation that came from a farmer in 
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1 Illinois Corey Struck, who's a member of a couple 

2 of OEFFA's work groups, and I thought it was a 

3 really creative idea. We are solutions-oriented 

4 at OEFFA, right? So we look for barriers and 

5 then we look for ways to get them out of our way.

6 We heard that you all put your due 

7 diligence, especially Michelle, and we appreciate 

8 you Michelle, but her due diligence into that 

9 effort around the timing of the meetings. And so 

10 we wanted to think about other ways that we could 

11 make this work. Hence, our list of needs there 

12 Mindee. 

13 So if, you know, if you all are able 

14 to work that into your schedule, that would work 

15 great for us. So but we're looking for multiple 

16 access points, like a web of access if that could 

17 be imagined. 

18 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you.

19 MS. BARTON: Thank you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

21 you so much Julia.

22 MS. BARTON: Thank you.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

2 Jay Feldman, followed by Abby Youngblood and then 

3 Terry Shistar. Jay, please go ahead.

4 MR. FELDMAN: Hi, I'm Jay Feldman, 

5 Executive Director of Beyond Pesticides, and a 

6 former NOSB member. Thank you for your service. 

7 This meeting of the NOSB affirms the critical 

8 role of the Board in engaging the public in a 

9 transparent process governed by stakeholders that 

10 is unique in the governmental regulatory system.

11 Unique by design to think and operate 

12 holistically outside the silos of individual 

13 practices or exposure to individual chemicals. 

14 NOSB authority establishes a credibility and 

15 integrity that is often lost in the typical 

16 governmental processes. We must celebrate what 

17 has been achieved under the Organic Foods 

18 Production Act, OFPA, and fiercely defend it as 

19 well.

20 As members of the NOSB, you are not 

21 just fulfilling a role in a niche market. You 

22 are affirming and defending methods that are 
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1 intended to establish integrity, incentivize 

2 innovation, challenge critical -- conventional 

3 wisdom our cutting edge and established public 

4 trust in the organic label.

5 With your statutory 

6 authority, you can advise the Secretary that any 

7 efforts to weaken this authority limit the 

8 leadership role of the Board or fail to carry out 

9 National List decisions and undermining of your 

10 authority and public trust. You have our 

11 submitted comments on all the issues before you.

12 I'd like to focus on the petition and 

13 technical review for potassium sorbate, KS, as 

14 both instructive and affirming of the critical 

15 role of the NOSB. You have the authority to 

16 reject KS for the proposed use. The TR clearly 

17 defines the elements of review not addressed by 

18 the petition, that are integral to organic 

19 systems, effects to health, environment, 

20 compatibility with organic, essentiality.

21 Let's take soil. The discussion 

22 document states "KS antimicrobial properties and 
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1 characteristics could alter the microbe bio in 

2 the soil. It is reasonable to expect that it 

3 would inhibit the growth of soil microorganisms 

4 and a significant number of organisms regarded as 

5 beneficial are suppressed."

6 The authority vested in this Board 

7 under OFPA to ensure soil management as part of a 

8 biological system that replaces dependency on 

9 petrochemical pesticides and fertilizers, is a 

10 principle found nowhere under policies of other 

11 statutes governing acceptable levels of 

12 purposefully added toxins in agriculture, the 

13 food supply and the management of land.

14 The petition process, the sunset 

15 review as originally conceived by Congress, and 

16 the TR review put the NOSB in key leadership 

17 position to take on the current existential 

18 health crises, biodiversity collapse and the 

19 climate emergency and ensure a livable future.

20 Organic must lead in how we manage the 

21 soil, suppress the carbon, take petrochemical 

22 pesticides and fertilizers out of land 
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1 management, and then under continuous 

2 improvement, how we move to eliminate plastics 

3 and adopt non-polluting disinfection practices. 

4 Without a strong OFPA and NOSB we will not (audio 

5 interference) future. Thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

7 for your comments. Any questions for Jay? I 

8 have a quick question for you, Jay. Given your 

9 earlier part of your comments, if we were to stop 

10 needing to look and hunt for existential threats 

11 from USDA (audio interference) the NOSB, what 

12 would be strongest and fastest way to drive 

13 organic demand in the marketplace? 

14 If we see unsatisfied six percent of 

15 the market being organic, how do we talk about 

16 organic and where would you say are the greatest 

17 (audio interference)? I'm not sure what the --

18 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah. I mean I think 

19 that's a really great question, because you know, 

20 like you I'm sure you sense, like I do, a fair 

21 amount of frustration on the part of the public 

22 as to what we can do as individuals, as part of 
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1 communities, as part of organizations, to effect 

2 these existential crises.

3 We really see, as I tried to convey 

4 here, that organic intersects with mitigation of 

5 these crises. So when we're talking about the 

6 standards that you review, say I used potassium 

7 sorbate as an example of a petition because 

8 you're looking at health, health impacts. You're 

9 looking at biodiversity impact. You're looking 

10 at compatibility with organic systems, which are 

11 biological systems, soil systems, microbios like 

12 the TR identifies.

13 And so I think to the extent that we 

14 can message as a community that this is a 

15 solution and it's cross-cutting, it's 

16 intersectional, we have a huge opportunity to 

17 really get the public behind this. Remember of 

18 course, that organic happened through voluntary 

19 action by consumers in the marketplace. As we 

20 ramp up public understanding of the value, I 

21 think we grow the market.

22 But the issue of integrity, Nate 
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1 behind all this is critical. The label has to be 

2 viewed with trust. So what you guys --

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hold on one 

4 second, Jay. Michelle, is it possible to mute 

5 everybody. 

6 MS. ARSENAULT: If I mute everyone, it 

7 seems like they keep being --

8 PARTICIPANT: You guys have some major 

9 Zoom bombers in here, just so you know. You've 

10 got to lock it down. 

11 (Off record comments.)

12 MS. ARSENAULT: We will, when we 

13 identify whose mic it was, we are muting them and 

14 we will --

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thanks, Jay. 

16 Brian has a question for you.

17 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. Thanks, Jay. 

18 I'm very much receptive to all the issues with 

19 plastics that have been raised and all the 

20 comments that we've received, and but it's an 

21 incredibly entrenched and difficult issue. 

22 I would just wonder if you have any 
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1 ideas on how we could start to address it, or if 

2 you don't, I would just really strongly suggest 

3 that Beyond Pesticides and a bunch of the other 

4 groups that we've heard from, MOFGA if you're 

5 still listening and other farmer and consumer 

6 groups, could really try to look at sort of a 

7 fast forward for this, because I can't see it 

8 personally myself very clearly at all, but I 

9 would love to hear your comments and others.

10 MR. FELDMAN: Yeah. Well, great 

11 question. I really think it is going to have to 

12 be collaborative effort on everybody's part, and 

13 the great thing again about the holistic approach 

14 that you all take as a board and, you know, the 

15 organic systems approach takes, we're looking at 

16 cradle to grave issues.

17 We're considering not only production 

18 practices and plastic there, we're considering 

19 packaging as well. So we have an opportunity to 

20 start in every area to question what alternatives 

21 are available. We write extensively and have for 

22 years on mulching systems that are not plastic-
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1 based.

2 We've talked about, you know, 

3 packaging that is not plastic oriented and 

4 container liners and so forth and so on. So I 

5 think we could piece it, you know, apart, take it 

6 apart, look at the various venues in which we as 

7 a community engage, from production through 

8 packaging, through handling you know, and look at 

9 all those points along that continuum in which we 

10 are utilizing plastic.

11 I think we can do it. Again, this to 

12 me fits under the rubric of continuous 

13 improvement, which is part of our ethic, right? 

14 So if we start small, we can grow it out in a 

15 pretty short period of time I believe. 

16 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, thank you.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

18 you Jay. Next up we have Abby Youngblood, 

19 followed by Carrie Shistar and then Pryor 

20 Garnett.

21 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Good afternoon. I am 

22 Abby Youngblood, Executive Director at the 
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1 National Organic Coalition or NOC, and today I'd 

2 like to address three topics, in-person oral 

3 comments, additions to the NOSB work agenda and 

4 NOC's Farm Bill advocacy.

5 I would like to applaud the National 

6 Organic Program for expanding the opportunities 

7 for stakeholders to participate virtually, first 

8 by creating the oral comment webinars several 

9 years ago and more recently by providing the NOSB 

10 meeting livestream.

11 These virtual opportunities increase 

12 public participation, but they are not a 

13 substitute for in-person connection. I urge the 

14 Board to return to the hybrid approach that was 

15 used before the pandemic. Please give public 

16 stakeholders a choice, either webinar oral 

17 comments or in-person comments. They are the 

18 only participatory part of the NOSB meeting, and 

19 they do (audio interference). 

20 MS. ARSENAULT: Abby, can you hang on 

21 one second please? I just muted the entire 

22 group. Hang on one second while we manage some 
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1 hackers here. 

2 (Pause.)

3 MS. ARSENAULT: All right. I think we 

4 have it managed. I'm going to ask you to unmute 

5 yourself again, Abby. I need to give you 

6 permission to do that. There you go. Okay, 

7 sorry for the interruption.

8 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Thank you, Michelle. 

9 Of course, the worse nightmare for the 

10 organizers, but good job managing the situation. 

11 So I was talking about in-person comments as the 

12 only participatory part of the NOSB meeting, and 

13 they give attendees and especially farmers a 

14 reason to come to the meeting.

15 I'd like you to know that both last 

16 fall and this spring, we did have significant 

17 farmer interest in NOSB participation and in the 

18 scholarships that we provide to farmers to 

19 attend. Farmers who take time away from their 

20 operations to attend the NOSB meeting should have 

21 a chance to speak directly to the Board, to the 

22 National Organic Program and the full community 
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1 about the issues they care about during in-person 

2 meetings.

3 Second, I want to address several 

4 topics for inclusion on the NOSB work agenda. We 

5 are looking forward to the organic livestock and 

6 poultry standards rule being finalized very soon 

7 we hope. But that will just not fully address 

8 humane management of organic swine. This topic 

9 should be added to the NOSB work agenda, to give 

10 all stakeholders the chance to participate in the 

11 development of standards. 

12 Next, NOC is concerned about the lack 

13 of standards for greenhouse and container 

14 production. The NOSB must begin work on this 

15 topic to ensure consistency across certifiers, 

16 and the NOSB should address topics such as the 

17 disposal of effluence from containers, while 

18 certifiers treat land that's been converted to 

19 container production, and the use of greenhouses 

20 where prohibited material was applied to a 

21 previous crop.

22 Another area of concern, as you've 
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1 been hearing about and talking about, is the use 

2 of plastics and organic. We would like to see 

3 the organic movement out in front of reducing 

4 environmental contamination caused by plastics. 

5 We recognize that we can't remove all plastic use 

6 overnight, but we want to see the organic 

7 community make some progress.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we 

9 appreciate your comments, Abby. Questions from 

10 the Board. Allison and then Jerry, please go 

11 ahead.

12 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. Thanks so 

13 much for your comments Abby and for your grace in 

14 handling the interruption. If you had a few more 

15 seconds of anything you wanted to close out, we 

16 would welcome you to do that. 

17 I also wanted to recognize NOC's 

18 comments on racial equity. You did a great job 

19 summarizing past comments and the sort of 

20 trajectory that we've been on, and I'm curious if 

21 you could take a moment to speak to the outreach 

22 that you've been doing and what you're hearing 
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1 particularly from producers of color about their 

2 interest in organic or lack thereof, and what 

3 you think the NOSB in particular can do to help 

4 facilitate a more open dialogue and participation 

5 over a wider range of producers in organic.

6 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Thanks for the 

7 question Allison, and I just want to start by 

8 recognizing the work of NOC's Racial Equity 

9 Committee in thinking about those issues, 

10 thinking about the role of the NOSB and putting 

11 together the comments. 

12 NOC is part of a group of many 

13 different organizations in the organic community 

14 that are exploring how we can build deeper 

15 partnerships with organizations that serve black 

16 farmers, indigenous farmers, other farmers of 

17 color.

18 We're kind of at the beginning stages 

19 of deepening those relationships, but one of the 

20 things that we're finding is there's a lot of 

21 interest in using organic practices and, for 

22 example, there was a survey done by National 
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1 Young Farmers Coalition and the survey 

2 respondents report a very high percentage, above 

3 90 percent using regenerative or sustainable 

4 practices, but less than 30 percent being 

5 certified as organic.

6 So in terms of organic practices and 

7 the benefits that come from those practices, I 

8 think there's a lot of interest among diverse 

9 farmers. I think that part of the gap is a 

10 little bit what my colleague Julia was referring 

11 to, kind of lack of acknowledgment of where our 

12 movement comes from and lack of connection to 

13 some of those practices. 

14 But I think the -- I guess the other 

15 thing I'd say is we are committed to having more 

16 conversations about this topic, and the next 

17 conversation that we're planning will be in 

18 Atlanta on April 24th, so next Monday. In the 

19 pre-NOSB meeting, we'll be hearing directly from 

20 farmers in the southeast region, and it's a very 

21 diverse group of farmers from different 

22 backgrounds.
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1 The theme of that farmer panel is 

2 helping more farmers go organic. So I think 

3 we'll be hearing more from farmers who are using 

4 organic practices, most of whom are certified 

5 organic, but they're thinking about how to help 

6 more farmers from diverse backgrounds pursue 

7 organic certification. I think we can learn a 

8 lot by listening to farmers at this stage. 

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, please go 

10 ahead.

11 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah. Hey Abby, I 

12 just want to thank you for the way you positioned 

13 your comments regarding greenhouses and 

14 containers. You left the door open for 

15 discussion, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

16 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: We look forward to 

17 the leadership of the NOSB and fostering more 

18 discussion in that area. So thank you for 

19 considering that topic.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn, please go 

21 ahead.

22 MEMBER DIMITRI: Hi Abby. I want you 
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1 to speculate about something which I don't think 

2 anyone has the answer to. But do you think that 

3 there is any value -- oh, not value. 

4 If say the -- we could have greenhouse 

5 and container standards, that you know, go 

6 through the typical process and are made into, 

7 you know, rulemaking and everything, do you think 

8 that that would like help settle a little bit 

9 some of these divisions that we're seeing in the 

10 organic world now because of the hydroponic 

11 situation?

12 MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Thank you for the 

13 question. I'll go on record stating what I think 

14 most of you know, the National Organic Coalition 

15 does not believe that hydroponic systems should 

16 be certified as organic. I will also say that we 

17 do have to think about which kinds of production 

18 systems are soil-based systems and which are not.

19 And so figuring out where we draw that 

20 line is a challenge, and I think the Board can 

21 play a role in helping to figure that out. Of 

22 course, the Board has worked on this issue 
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1 before, but I do think it's time for the Board to 

2 work on the issue again.

3 I think that there is a need for more 

4 clarity around some of the situations that I 

5 mention in my comments, where there is not 

6 consistency from one certifier to the next.

7 It's pretty egregious for us to ignore that 

8 inconsistency. So we have to talk about and work 

9 on these issues, and find a path forward.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, go ahead.

11 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah. A quick 

12 comment to what's been said is I think part of 

13 the problem is is that we have failed to 

14 segregate under the broad term CEA, the fact that 

15 we're dealing with two different issues entirely. 

16 One is climate control, a structure, and one is 

17 a delivery system for nutrients, etcetera.

18 So there's a lot to tease out here, 

19 and I think there is a lot of room for good 

20 discussion. Thank you.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

22 you so much for your comments, Abby. We really 
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1 appreciate it. All right. Next up we have Terry 

2 Shistar, followed by Pryor Garnett and then Kate 

3 Mendenhall.

4 (Pause.)

5 MS. ARSENAULT: I just need a sec to 

6 get your slides up and then we can start. 

7 There's a little bit of a delay sometimes. 

8 Thanks. I believe we can see the slides now. 

9 MS. SHISTAR: Okay. My name is Terry 

10 Shistar, and I'm on the Board of Directors at 

11 Beyond Pesticides. I'm going to address four 

12 issues today. Climate change is an emergency 

13 that deserves to be met with the sense of urgency 

14 that we don't see from NOP. For organic to be 

15 climate-smart, NOP and certifiers must hold 

16 organic producers to the letter and spirit of 

17 OFPA, which requires that organic production be 

18 soil-based, incorporate diversity and protect the 

19 environment.

20 Operations based on hydroponics or 

21 confined animal facilities and those that replace 

22 native ecosystems with organic farms do not meet 
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1 these requirements. 

2 The NOSB has made its position clear 

3 on these issues, and must insist that NOP and 

4 certifiers consistently enforce the law, for the 

5 sake of reducing climate change, biodiversity 

6 loss and human health impacts, as well as 

7 fairness. It is critical that NOP asks what more 

8 should USDA be doing to advance organic? 

9 Because ion exchange creates chemical 

10 change, all organic ingredients processed in this 

11 manner must be subject to review by the NOSB. 

12 Please see our written comments for application 

13 of the materials classification guidance to ion 

14 exchange. 

15 Chemicals and the ion exchange resins 

16 may leak into the food product. The Handling 

17 Subcommittee proposal to allow any and all resins 

18 without review or disclosure to consumers is 

19 unacceptable. To maintain the integrity of the 

20 organic label, resins must be subject to full 

21 National List review, rather than establishing a 

22 blanket allowance in organic processing.
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1 Only resins approved for this use 

2 should be allowed in organic food processing, and 

3 only when they and the treated ingredients are 

4 approved and listed on 605(b). Chemicals added 

5 during the ion exchange process must be listed on 

6 the label.

7 Plastic mulch is part of a larger 

8 issue relating to the use of plastic in organic 

9 production and handling. Awareness is growing 

10 about the impacts of plastic and the microplastic 

11 particles resulting from its use on human health 

12 and the environment. Plastics manufacture 

13 requires transportation of hazardous chemicals, 

14 such as those involved in the recent derailment 

15 in East Palestine, Ohio.

16 Plastic mulch should not be relisted. 

17 The NOSB should initiate a strategy to eliminate 

18 all uses of plastic in organic production and 

19 packaging. Finally, phase out materials on --

20 (Simultaneous speaking.)

21 MS. SHISTAR: --are produced using 

22 chemical pesticides and fertilizers with the 
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1 attendant dangers to people, the environment and 

2 the climate. Materials should not remain on 606 

3 if they can be supplied organically. The NOSB 

4 should ask what are the barriers to providing an 

5 organic form of this ingredient, and could the 

6 need be met if the organic form is required? 

7 Thank you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

9 comments. Any questions from the Board? Allison 

10 has a question.

11 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks so much Terry. 

12 I am wrestling with the same issues that you 

13 raised around ion exchange. I was pretty 

14 convinced by the comments in the fall that the 

15 resins are inert and are intended to not interact 

16 with the materials that pass through, and that if 

17 they're properly functioning they shouldn't.

18 But we do have, you know, knowledge 

19 about plastics reaching lots of vessels that hold 

20 materials, actually interacting (audio 

21 interruption). 

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please continue on 
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1 Allison. 

2 MEMBER JOHNSON: Yeah, just waiting 

3 for that to silence. And so I'm curious where 

4 you think we can practically draw the line. I 

5 absolutely agree that over time, we'd like to see 

6 a phase out of plastics. We'd like to see a 

7 phase out of materials that we know can have 

8 chemical interactions.

9 But I'm also very sympathetic to the 

10 practical need to draw a line somewhere, and here 

11 to me I'm mostly comfortable with the resins 

12 being in a place where we can say, you know, it 

13 may not be perfect, but let's keep an eye on it. 

14 Let's see if there are testing options 

15 that we could use to ensure that we're confident 

16 that there is no interaction, but to make a 

17 decision at this point based on the best 

18 knowledge that we have and the intended use of 

19 these products as being simply something that a 

20 material passes through.

21 So I'm curious if you could speak to 

22 your take on how we can do that line drawing, 
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1 keep the organic industry functioning and moving 

2 forward and also sort of use our best judgment to 

3 revisit these issues in the future?

4 MS. SHISTAR: Okay. Well you -- you 

5 know, with both the plastics and the ion 

6 exchange, I think we're talking about things that 

7 are pre-existing problems. We're not, we're not 

8 being the gatekeepers in this, in these 

9 situations. We're now looking at things that are 

10 out there and we're discovering that there may be 

11 bigger issues than we ever thought there were.

12 And I guess I'm old enough that I've 

13 been through the plastics revolution, right? 

14 When I was younger, a lot of things that we now 

15 use plastics for we don't -- we didn't use 

16 plastics for then. 

17 And so I guess I tend to think hey, 

18 there's a real possibility that we can, we can do 

19 without plastic. I think there definitely are 

20 things where it's embedded, like underground, 

21 where we've got PVC piping that's delivering our 

22 water. We get, you know, we're not going to do 
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1 much about that.

2 Ion exchange is another thing where I 

3 think it's kind of crept into organic, and we 

4 weren't really aware that this was an issue. I 

5 don't think we were aware that, at least I wasn't 

6 aware, that these fruit juice sweeteners were 

7 going through an ion exchange process, that all 

8 the sugar that was -- all the organic sugar goes 

9 through several stages of ion exchange.

10 And you know, again, I'm old enough 

11 that when I was -- when I was starting to eat 

12 organic food, I didn't have sugar in my food. I 

13 didn't have these processed sweeteners. If I 

14 wanted something sweet, I had real fruit or 

15 honey, you know, something that was not a process 

16 additive.

17 But I think that to what -- to your 

18 point, to getting -- if we want to get to the 

19 point where we can use a resin, we need to do --

20 we need to do the testing. We can't just approve 

21 all the resins without doing any kind of testing 

22 to see what might be happening, and just kind of 
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1 -- because and approve -- essentially we're 

2 approving it because it's already there. It's 

3 always been done, and we're closing, you know, 

4 closing the door behind the horse or whatever 

5 that is.

6 MEMBER JOHNSON: Are you aware of any 

7 tests that we could use? This is one of the 

8 questions that we posed to stakeholders, because 

9 I don't know that we have a good sense of whether 

10 there is a way that we can do a little bit more 

11 digging to figure out whether there is some sort 

12 of material leaching. 

13 My understanding is you need to test 

14 for something specific, and so we'd need to have 

15 a sense of what we are looking for and get

16 specific, and I'm curious from you and anyone 

17 else who is commenting, if there is anything 

18 specific that we could be looking for, to give us 

19 some assurance and comfort?

20 MS. SHISTAR: I think that the -- I 

21 think that the technical review, that Amalie 

22 raised some issues about what might be coming 
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1 through. And if you look at her written 

2 comments, you might -- there are some references 

3 there. I can try to get back to you with more 

4 specifics, but I don't have it off the top of my 

5 head.

6 MEMBER JOHNSON: Okay, thank you.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin has a 

8 question. Franklin, please go ahead.

9 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes, I have a 

10 question. In cases where there are organic 

11 alternatives, is efficacy part of the 

12 consideration in terms of how well must an 

13 alternative do in order for us to consider it a 

14 viable alternative? So I just wondered on your 

15 views on organic alternatives and is efficacy a 

16 consideration?

17 MS. SHISTAR: Well efficacy is a 

18 consideration in the sense that in order -- one 

19 of the criterion, criteria for approving a 

20 material is whether it's, whether it's essential 

21 and it can't be essential if it doesn't work. 

22 But then there's, as I think you're 
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1 getting at, there's a line where something may 

2 be, may be effective and may be -- and then we 

3 have to judge this. We have to make a judgment 

4 as to how needed is it, how necessary is it. I 

5 think that in the past, the NOSB has done a good 

6 job of evaluating that question.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

8 questions for Terry?

9 I have a quick question for you, 

10 Terry. Given the issue of plastics in organics, 

11 if we're to take the stance towards resins that 

12 you're suggesting, should we be testing all 

13 plastics that come in contact, be it packaging or 

14 irrigation lines or any of the plastic that comes 

15 in contact with organic food?

16 MS. SHISTAR: Well, some things are 

17 easier to test than others. But yes, I think 

18 that that's a good place to start in developing 

19 some kind of priority system for deciding which 

20 things we get rid of first. 

21 I mean obviously things that are 

22 releasing toxic chemicals into the food are going 
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1 to be something that's going to be a higher 

2 priority than something that's not. It's all --

3 then plastic that's only a problem in the, in the 

4 disposal stream, for example. 

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If we think 

6 practically, is your -- how would you describe 

7 your goal for the industry? Should we be as pure 

8 as we possibly can be and not interested in 

9 growth, or is there a pragmatic balance?

10 MS. SHISTAR: I think that as much as 

11 we can adhere to organic principles, we're going 

12 to grow more. So I don't think that that's a 

13 valid dichotomy.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

15 ahead.

16 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah thanks, Terry. 

17 Just a quick clarification. In terms of -- you 

18 mentioned testing which seems like a good idea in 

19 a lot of ways, but I'm wondering if you are 

20 referring to like a testing of every organic 

21 operation and every, you know, every farm, or if 

22 you're talking about researchers should start 
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1 testing about -- testing this and just 

2 determining whether these are -- this is an issue 

3 or not?

4 MS. SHISTAR: Mostly the latter. I 

5 mean that's why I say we should be listing resins 

6 individually on the National List, based on the 

7 testing that we see or, you know, how you know, 

8 what leakage and what might be coming through. 

9 The same thing with plastics. There 

10 is a lot of research out there about what is 

11 getting into food from, you know, like BPA that 

12 might be in your -- in plastic or plastic liners 

13 of cans or something. So yeah, I think there's a 

14 lot of room for testing as far as research. No, 

15 I'm not talking about going out and testing every 

16 farm to see --

17 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, thank you. I 

18 just wanted to be really clear on that. Thank 

19 you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

21 you for your comments. Next up we have Pryor 

22 Garnett, followed by Kate Mendenhall and then Dan 
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1 Langager.

2 MR. GARNETT: Well good afternoon, 

3 thank you NOSB members and NOP staff for your 

4 service to organic agriculture, and for hearing 

5 me out today. My name is Pryor Garnett. I chair 

6 the Organic Farmers Association's Policy 

7 Committee and I farm in western Oregon.

8 Today, I'll be addressing three 

9 issues, organic and climate-smart agriculture, 

10 the greenhouse and container production standards 

11 and crop insurance. OFA members agree with the 

12 NOSB that certified organic production should 

13 automatically be considered climate-smart and 

14 eligible for all funding and support through 

15 climate-related USDA programs.

16 Organic agriculture has tremendous 

17 potential to address climate change, but only if 

18 the USDA effectively protects the integrity of 

19 the organic label. That integrity is essential 

20 to maintaining the label standing and preference 

21 with consumers, to ensuring a level playing field 

22 for organic farmers in the broader agriculture 
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1 sector, and to make sure that organic methods 

2 provide the maximum benefit in addressing the 

3 climate crisis.

4 Enforcing the organic livestock 

5 standards is important to climate-smart 

6 agriculture, because pasturing and real outdoor 

7 access help enrich soil, biology and soil 

8 structure, and enrich the animal's welfare. Soil 

9 health is a foundational principle of organic 

10 agriculture. 

11 The NOP's decision to allow hydroponic 

12 operations to be certified organic, and 

13 inconsistent interpretation of guidance on 

14 container operations, has caused both farmers and 

15 consumers to question organic as a regenerative 

16 agricultural system. NOP must clarify that 

17 organic farming only occurs in the soil, and 

18 ensure that all organic certifiers consistently 

19 apply this requirement.

20 The NOP should return this topic to 

21 the NOSB agenda, so that organic as a climate22 smart leader is clear and consistent. 
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1 Second, OFA urges the NOSB to 

2 resume work on its agenda item for field and 

3 greenhouse container production. We support 

4 organic certification of crop production where 

5 terrestrial plants are grown to maturity in the 

6 ground with no barrier between top soil, subsoil 

7 and bedrock.

8 Current standards for the organic 

9 production of crops and containers and in outside 

10 greenhouses are limited, and has led to 

11 widespread certifier inconsistency. The NOSB 

12 needs to resume work on container production. 

13 Third and finally, I'll talk a little 

14 bit about crop insurance again. We appreciate 

15 the Board's work on this important topic. OFA's 

16 farmer members have a wide range of experiences 

17 with crop insurance. There's broad frustration, 

18 especially with the whole farm revenue program. 

19 New farms have it the hardest, but 

20 even established farmers struggle with it. We 

21 need to educate insurance agents on organics, 

22 because they rarely understand organic systems 
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1 and methods. In our written testimony, we've 

2 outlined the number of improvements, and we also 

3 point to the comments submitted by the Ohio 

4 Ecological Food and Farming Association. Thank 

5 you very much.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

7 comments.

8 MR. GARNETT: You're welcome.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions from 

10 the Board? Amy, please go ahead.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Pryor, thank you for 

12 joining us today. Thanks for your information. 

13 I have a question about crop insurance, and I 

14 really appreciate all the comments that you have 

15 made and others. There are some good points that 

16 your organization makes.

17 One point I didn't necessarily see 

18 discussion on was about T yields, and the idea 

19 that the T yields, I just want to make sure. 

20 You're familiar with T yields? Otherwise I could 

21 -- or maybe not. 

22 MR. GARNETT: I'm afraid you'll have 
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1 to explain that Amy.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Well hey, no 

3 problem. You know, my -- it's a very specific 

4 question, so I might hold off and ask another, 

5 another representative potentially, because it 

6 does get in the weeds a little bit. So I 

7 apologize for that Pryor, so thank you. Thank 

8 you for your time. I'll hold my question til 

9 later.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

11 have another question for you Pryor. Dilip, 

12 please go ahead.

13 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks for your 

14 comment. I just want to have a quick 

15 clarification on your greenhouse production, and 

16 I think your -- and an earlier speaker also 

17 mentioned. I think you are mentioning including 

18 high tunnels, body house and any kind of indoor 

19 production or, if you want to say something else 

20 on this, when you say about greenhouse 

21 production.

22 And also can you tell a little bit 
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1 about the greenhouse plant in the ground, in the 

2 soil also, or on the aerial and other aspects. 

3 So can you please a little bit something about on 

4 that. Thank you.

5 MR. GARNETT: Thank you for your 

6 question. Yes, I'd be glad to speak to this. 

7 The foundational principle that OFA is asserting 

8 here is that most organic production should have 

9 the roots of the plants in direct contact with 

10 the soil, and through that down to the bedrock.

11 Now there are a few exceptions that we 

12 recognize. For example, if plants are being sold 

13 as starts. So to being sold to consumers who are 

14 then going to plant the tomato plant in their 

15 container. We recognize that that container 

16 production is not necessarily going to be in full 

17 contact with the soil and bedrock.

18 But in, for example, a high tunnel, as 

19 you mentioned, where it is simply a shelter over 

20 the soil with the plants in the soil and their 

21 roots extending directly down from there, we 

22 think that that is certainly appropriate for 
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1 organic certification.

2 On the other hand, you have an open 

3 field where let's say blueberry plants are 

4 growing in containers, with their primary 

5 nutrient source being delivered via drip 

6 irrigation, that is not appropriate for organic 

7 certification. I hope that those two examples 

8 help clarify our remarks.

9 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you. That 

10 really helps. Thanks.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

12 ahead.

13 MEMBER LEWIS: Hey Pryor, good to see 

14 you, and thanks for bringing crop insurance to 

15 the table here at the Board meeting. I wanted to 

16 home in on one of the elements in the OEFFA 

17 comments about the Good Farming Practice Handbook 

18 and OSP, and in my work on this topic, RMA has 

19 not really accepted the argument that anything 

20 included in an OSP should be considered a good 

21 farming practice.

22 I think there's some merit to that, 
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1 where you can have a complaint system plan 

2 without necessarily being a good farmer or 

3 following good farming practices. So I'm curious 

4 if you've done some thinking on how to maybe 

5 identify some of the elements in an OSP that 

6 would be areas for folks to -- for RMA to look 

7 at, or just if you all have talked about that 

8 tension between the OSP and the Good Farming 

9 Practices manual.

10 MR. GARNETT: That's a very good 

11 point, Nathan. Thank you very much for raising 

12 it, because we clearly believe that the organic 

13 certifiers, in reviewing and ultimately approving 

14 the organic systems plan for a given producer, 

15 have established that that plan, as a whole, is a 

16 good farming practice.

17 And that a second review, almost an 

18 independent review by an insurance agent or by 

19 the Whole Farm Program, is unnecessary. There is 

20 no analog to the organic systems plan in what we 

21 call conventional agricultural today, and there 

22 is no review. So in that environment, I think 
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1 assessing good farming practice is important. 

2 But where we have the 

3 independent review of an organic certifier 

4 approving an organic systems plan, I think it's 

5 not necessary.

6 MEMBER LEWIS: Great, and just as a --

7 maybe a follow-up comment on that I think, as you 

8 know, the Board advises the NOP but we also 

9 advise the Secretary. So I can see a role the 

10 Board could play in communicating with RMA on 

11 those specific points, and how OSP and the Good 

12 Farming Practices manual can overlap. So thanks 

13 for bringing that up. I think it's an actionable 

14 area.

15 MR. GARNETT: Yes, I appreciate your 

16 doing that, and I would strongly encourage the 

17 Board to take that action.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

19 questions for Pryor? 

20 All right. Thank you very much, 

21 Pryor. Next up we have Kate Mendenhall, followed 

22 by Dan Langager and then Jaydee Hanson. Kate, 
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1 please go ahead.

2 MS. MENDENHALL: Thank you NOSB 

3 members for the opportunity to speak before you 

4 today. My name is Kate Mendenhall. I'm the 

5 Executive Director of the Organic Farmers 

6 Association. OFA represents a strong national 

7 voice for domestic certified organic farmers. 

8 Today, I will be addressing oversight to deter 

9 fraud, phosphoric acid and organic swine 

10 management. 

11 Preventing organic fraud has 

12 consistently been a top priority for U.S. organic 

13 farmers, and we appreciate the Board's work on 

14 this important topic. While we see value in 

15 adding GIS data to farm and field location in the 

16 Organic Integrity database, we want to 

17 acknowledge that adding GPS coordinates would be 

18 an additional tracking to what is currently being 

19 done on most farms, and requires access to 

20 technology.

21 All farmers do not have the 

22 technological expertise to provide this 
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1 information to certifiers, or in some cases as in 

2 the plain community, they may be opposed to using 

3 the technology. So assistance for farmers with 

4 limited access to and experience with technology 

5 must be part of the recommendations.

6 Perhaps provisions could be taken to 

7 require more technological GIS data for farms 

8 that pose a greater risk, that may manage maybe 

9 one or two -- more than one or two farm 

10 locations, so that we minimize the burden on 

11 small farms.

12 Regarding the 2025 livestock sunset 

13 review, OFA requests that phosphoric acid be 

14 relisted as a synthetic sanitizer disinfectant. 

15 It's used to remove deposits on milk lines of 

16 bulk tanks, and it can -- and it's necessary to -

17 - it's used to remove deposits on milk lines of 

18 bulk tanks, and it cannot be removed without 

19 other detergents and acids.

20 So the buildup creates conditions 

21 where bacteria can rapidly multiply, impacting on 

22 safety and quality. OFA dairy farmer members 
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1 report more compatible substances are not 

2 available, and without the use of phosphoric 

3 acid, they would need to leave organic 

4 production.

5 We do acknowledge the 2018 concerns 

6 raised by the National Organic Coalition about 

7 consistency as to whether certifiers were or were 

8 not requiring a rinse after use, and we 

9 understand this is still a current issue. Our 

10 request is to relist phosphoric acid as a 

11 sanitizer disinfectant with an annotation that 

12 requires a rinse after use. Both the livestock 

13 and handling annotations should align in this 

14 way.

15 We urge NOSB to prioritize a 

16 comprehensive review of sanitizers, disinfectants 

17 and cleaners to inform decision-making when a new 

18 material is petitioned, or a material is reviewed 

19 at sunset. 

20 Finally, OFA requests that NOSB 

21 prioritize adding organic swine management to a 

22 future agenda. In review of the OLPS, it was 
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1 evident that guidance on organic swine management 

2 is behind animal welfare and other national 

3 organic standards. In order to reduce the burden 

4 of duplicative certifications and ensure consumer 

5 confidence in organic swine management, we 

6 request that the NOP and NOSB place swine 

7 management on the NOSB work agenda. 

8 Thank you for consideration of our 

9 comments.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

11 joining us today. Any questions for Kate?

12 All right. We appreciate your time. 

13 MS. MENDENHALL: Thank you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

15 Dan Langager, followed by Jaydee Hanson, and then 

16 Michael Sligh, and then folks, thank you for your 

17 patience, we're going to take a break. So we 

18 will, after the break, start with Harold Austin. 

19 But Dan, please go ahead.

20 MR. LANGAGER: Thank you so much. 

21 Hello everyone. My name is Dan Langager, and I'm 

22 with the Northwest Horticultural Council based in 
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1 Washington state. We represent the growers, 

2 packers and shippers of apples, pears and 

3 cherries in the Pacific Northwest. Our growers 

4 produce the majority of organic tree fruits here 

5 in the United States.

6 I'd like to direct you to the 

7 Northwest Horticultural Council's extensive 

8 written comments for the Pacific Northwest tree 

9 fruit industry's perspective on the various 

10 sunset materials before the Subcommittees, as 

11 well as the research priorities for handling, and 

12 the organic is climate-smart proposal from CACS.

13 I'm going to highlight some materials 

14 under crops that are of particular importance to 

15 organic tree fruit growers. Ethanol and 

16 isopropanol alcohols are critical tools for 

17 orchardists to both decontaminate the lines of 

18 irrigation systems, and to disinfect a variety of 

19 on-farm components.

20 So if irrigation lines aren't 

21 decontaminated from things like biofilms and 

22 microorganisms, the emitters can become clogged, 
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1 and that not only causes damage to the system, 

2 but an unequal supply of nutrient solution to the 

3 crop, which impacts the plant's growth. 

4 And then these alcohols are also used 

5 to clean the pruning shears when removing chutes 

6 or branches infected with cider blights to 

7 prevent the infection of the shears themselves. 

8 It can further spread the pathogens to other 

9 chutes during subsequent cuttings.

10 Plastic mulches and covers are for 

11 newer fruit tree production benefits. We use 

12 them on bird nets, wind screens, shade cloths, 

13 weed mats and actually by covering the weeds, 

14 they've proven a really useful deterrent for 

15 various insect leafhopper pests in cherry 

16 orchards, actually reducing leafhopper numbers by 

17 80 to 90 percent. 

18 The leafhoppers, they can transmit the 

19 causative pathogen called middle cherry disease, 

20 which is epidemic in Washington state. It's 

21 resulted in significant loss of cherry production 

22 acreage.
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1 And then ground covers, they can also 

2 reflect light up into the tree canopy, and this 

3 is done only in the season to promote bloom and 

4 then before harvest to help the fruit gain some 

5 additional coloration and maturity.

6 Elemental sulfur, an essential tool 

7 for organic tree fruit production. It's used to 

8 control pest mites that damage leaf tissue. This 

9 leads to less fruit or potentially fewer blossoms 

10 the next season. It is also a critical tool in 

11 controlling disease pathogens like scab and brown 

12 rot. It's one of the few options our growers for 

13 treating powdery mildew.

14 And then elemental sulfur is also used 

15 to adjust soil pH, to ensure better nutrient 

16 uptake, water penetration, just overall enhance 

17 the plant and soil health. And then finally lime 

18 sulfur is used by the vast majority of organic 

19 tree fruit growers. It's a well-known source of 

20 calcium and sulfur. It controls blight, mildew 

21 and scab, and it helps control various orchard 

22 insect pests. Lime sulfur is applied from the 
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1 dormancies through bloom stages of the crop, and 

2 that's really to control insects or pests or 

3 pathogens that may have overwintered in the 

4 blocks.

5 I want to thank you so much for the 

6 opportunity to provide input from the organic 

7 tree fruit growers to the NOSB, and thank the 

8 Board members for their service.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Right on time. 

10 Thank you for your comments. Any questions from 

11 the Board?

12 All right, Dan. Thank you very much 

13 for joining us today. Oh I'm sorry, one second. 

14 Brian, please go ahead, and then Amy.

15 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks Dan. I know 

16 that fruit growing is really different in 

17 different regions of the country. I've been 

18 curious about hydrated lime, and here in the 

19 east, at least the way I understand it, hydrated 

20 lime would just be used in Bordeaux mix, although 

21 maybe -- are there other pesticide formulations 

22 that use hydrated lime? That's sort of the first 
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1 question.

2 The second question is with Bordeaux 

3 mix, again the way I understand it is that the 

4 other copper products are a lot more effective 

5 and safer. So why are people still using 

6 Bordeaux mix, and maybe I'm wrong on that. Maybe 

7 in your situation is that those, those are not 

8 the case. So if you'd just talk a little bit 

9 about that, I'd appreciate it.

10 MR. LANGAGER: Sure. I can answer 

11 what I can answer your first question. Yes, I 

12 believe there are other formulations and mixtures 

13 that growers can use. But I am going to defer to 

14 one of my colleagues. You're going to hear from 

15 a tree fruit grower, Harold Austin here in just a 

16 bit, and he is going to know those formulations 

17 much better than I do.

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, thanks.

19 MR. LANGAGER: Thanks.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

21 ahead.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Hi, Dan. Thank you for 
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1 your time today. I had a question about 

2 potassium sorbate. I don't know, maybe that's 

3 going to be tackled by the next presenter 

4 potentially, is that right? Okay.

5 MR. LANGAGER: I'll try.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Or you'll try it, okay. 

7 It was noted in your comments that the growers 

8 in your group decided that that would be very 

9 beneficial to mitigating plant diseases, having 

10 access to potassium sorbate. We've heard from 

11 previous comments and others extreme concerns 

12 with that substance in the environment used in 

13 this petition faction.

14 And there's also many alternatives 

15 that currently exist. There was questions also 

16 on the efficacy of some of the trials that were 

17 listed in the petition, that maybe the substances 

18 that they were trialing against aren't commonly 

19 used. I was just wondering, you know, what 

20 pushes your growers to want this to be accepted 

21 as a National List product, just because there is 

22 limited information on potassium sorbate used 
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1 specifically as petitioned, as the active 

2 ingredient?

3 MR. LANGAGER: Right, and I believe 

4 that the Subcommittee talked about the need for 

5 more research into this product, and I think 

6 that's something that our industry would like to 

7 see as well. We're always supportive of those 

8 types of efficacy trials to see exactly how it's 

9 working and in what circumstances. And like you 

10 said, climates and growing regions. 

11 We are very fortunate in the Pacific 

12 Northwest with our climates and our soils that we 

13 have here. I know that, as you said, it does 

14 help with controlling certain post-harvest 

15 diseases, post-harvest in both right after it's 

16 packed and then as it's going -- or after it's 

17 harvested and then it's going to packing. Those 

18 are very big issues.

19 So I would also say it fits into that, 

20 as many tools in the toolbox as our growers and 

21 packers have. If the studies show that this is 

22 efficacious, then we would like to see it as, you 
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1 know, part of the toolbox that our growers and 

2 packers produce.

3 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

5 questions from the Board. 

6 All right, Dan. Thank you very much 

7 for your time.

8 MR. LANGAGER: Thank you so much.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

10 Jaydee Hanson, followed by Michael Sligh. We're 

11 going to take a break, and then it will be Harold 

12 Austin, followed by Mark Kastel. Jaydee, please 

13 go ahead. And you are muted.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: Hang on, Jaydee. We 

15 have to get you unmuted here.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And folks just a 

17 quick note. Because of the interruptions before, 

18 we have everyone muted, and we will have to have 

19 you unmute as we request you to unmute. So sorry 

20 for that little bit of an added barrier.

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Jaydee, you should see 

22 something called open your screen, the host has 
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1 asked you to unmute. Do you see that? It 

2 doesn't look like it's working, apologies. Let's 

3 see what we can do here. 

4 (Pause.)

5 MS. ARSENAULT: Option to unmute him. 

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: There should be a 

7 host message asking you to unmute button Jaydee 

8 popping up on your screen.

9 MR. HANSON: There it came. All 

10 right, thank you. I am glad to speak to you 

11 today or pleased that the NOSB has lifted up the 

12 importance of organic agriculture is a means of 

13 slowing climate chaos. We feel so strongly about 

14 this at the Center that we formed an 

15 international coalition to promote organic at the 

16 international climate conferences.

17 We don't think that the USDA and the 

18 National Organic Program have adequately promoted 

19 that organic producers are already actively 

20 employing multiple climate-smart practices. 

21 Organic producers deserve to be rewarded and 

22 acknowledged for consistently implementing these 
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1 practices in their production models.

2 Certified organic farmers should 

3 automatically qualify and be approved for any 

4 climate-smart label when the term is codified by 

5 the USDA. We don't think that water-based 

6 growing methods like hydroponics meet the test 

7 for being climate-smart, and should not be called 

8 climate-smart.

9 (Pause.)

10 MR. HANSON: Excuse me. There is 

11 currently no climate-smart plan across all 

12 organic certifiers, and this impedes farmers 

13 seeking access to USDA climate-smart funding. 

14 They shouldn't have to apply twice to be 

15 considered climate-smart. All organic 

16 certifications should require annual reporting of 

17 key climate-related data such as soil organic 

18 matter, nitrogen levels, phosphorous levels, 

19 potassium in soil, just to name a few.

20 Next topic, organics should not have 

21 ortho-phthalates, bisphenol and PFAS in them. 

22 We've been urging the NOSB to take a lead on 
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1 this. There are individual companies that are 

2 leading on this. Annie's Organic has taken 

3 ortho-phthalates out of their products. Other 

4 manufacturers like REI and Patagonia have taken 

5 plastics out of their clothing. 

6 This is a huge problem. Collectively, 

7 these three classes of chemicals, bisphenols, 

8 ortho-phthalates and PFAS need to be out of 

9 organic production, out of food. If we don't get 

10 them out, it will damage the organic brand. 

11 Finally, I appreciate the Materials 

12 Committee working through the -- last few 

13 excluded methods. You've got my comments in 

14 writing. I think I'm at the end of time.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate your 

16 comments. Mindee has a question for you.

17 MR. HANSON: Sure.

18 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you so much 

19 Jaydee for your long history of work, especially 

20 in the excluded methods realm. I'm wondering if 

21 given all the work of the NOSB recommendations 

22 and the work that's left on the TBD list, if you 
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1 have some perspective of the horizons of the 

2 excluded methods issue and if there are things 

3 coming toward us that we should be really looking 

4 at next?

5 MR. HANSON: Well, I mean the big 

6 issue really is the -- what is being called gene 

7 editing. There's a number of different ways to 

8 do this, but even with the -- even with the 

9 procedures that we looked at at this meeting, 

10 several of them can be combined with gene editing 

11 to -- so you really are going to have to have a 

12 couple of things excluded at the same time, you 

13 know.

14 You can't just say this is a non15 excluded method if you also somewhere else allow 

16 gene editing of that method. 

17 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you, Jaydee. I 

18 was thinking more along the lines of insects and 

19 sprays in the field, and technologies we may not 

20 have addressed yet that are appearing in the 

21 marketplace.

22 MR. HANSON: Well, there are some that 
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1 aren't quite in the marketplace yet that are RNAi 

2 pesticides and RNAi fertilizers that are applying 

3 for experimental use permits at the EPA, and I 

4 and several other folks have been trying to meet 

5 with the EPA about this. The good news is the 

6 EPA hasn't approved this yet. 

7 The bad news is it -- because of the 

8 small scale, it's going to be very hard to track 

9 if the companies that are doing this move ahead 

10 and do it. To some extent, it's some of the same 

11 technology that companies have figured out how to 

12 use in drugs. They just want to use it on a mass 

13 scale on the landscape. It's very different.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison, please go 

15 ahead.

16 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks for your 

17 comments Jaydee. I'm curious to dig in a little 

18 bit more into your comment about climate-smart 

19 agriculture and the role of soil-based systems on 

20 -- as an organization that works on pesticides in 

21 particular. I think about soil as an important 

22 part of a farming system and its relationship to 
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1 climate, but I also think a lot about reduction 

2 of synthetic inputs as a key piece of the climate 

3 as well. 

4 So I'm curious how you think about 

5 balancing those two interests when we think about 

6 the relationship between organic and climate.

7 MR. HANSON: Well, most of what we're 

8 talking about is how much climate gets into the -

9 - how much carbon gets into the atmosphere, and 

10 so you know, whatever, whatever assessment you 

11 do, you're going to have to look at that. The 

12 Center for Food Safety is, you know, aggressively 

13 opposed to spraying pesticides everywhere.

14 But the, you know, it's not that --

15 you know, if we eliminated all pesticides, there 

16 would still be significant additions to the 

17 climate from methane and carbon dioxide and a 

18 handful of other chemicals. So when we're 

19 dealing with, dealing with climate, we've got to 

20 deal with the chemicals that cause most of the 

21 change in the atmosphere.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip, please go 
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1 ahead.

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks Jaydee for 

3 your valuable comments, especially on gene 

4 editing. I really appreciate that. I don't have 

5 any question, just to appreciate your thoughts 

6 you mentioned. I see that it's going to be a big 

7 topic of discussion among the Board also on gene 

8 editing. 

9 So I really appreciate your comment 

10 that product should not be allowed at one place 

11 and be restricted another place. So really 

12 thanks again. I appreciate that.

13 MR. HANSON: Yeah, thank you. And 

14 there's actually an interesting argument between 

15 the USDA and the FDA on gene editing and how you 

16 regulate that. So it's one that I think the NOSB 

17 will have to pay attention to.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well 

19 we thank you for your comments today.

20 MR. HANSON: And thank you all for 

21 your good and long work. Much appreciated.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely, thank 
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1 you. Next up we have Michael Sligh. We're going 

2 to follow Michael's comments with a ten minute 

3 break, and then we'll have Harold Austin, Mark 

4 Kastel and then Angela Wartes-Kahl. Michael, the 

5 floor is yours.

6 MR. SLIGH: Good afternoon. My name 

7 is Michael Sligh. I'm a member of the founding 

8 NOSB from 1992 to 1997. We were responsible for 

9 the original recommendations that established the 

10 program. I rise today to strongly urge the 

11 reinstatement of in-person NOSB comments, 

12 restarting with this fall meeting.

13 While I strongly support the continued 

14 remote testimony opportunities as well as the new 

15 video streaming, for the many who cannot attend 

16 in person these are very positive additions and 

17 should be continued as well. However, in person 

18 public comment at the beginning of each NOSB 

19 meeting is not a random tradition.

20 But it's one that we established on 

21 purpose at the very beginning to anchor, to shape 

22 and to ensure that this vital program is 
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1 participatory and is guided by the stakeholders 

2 who choose to adhere to these rules. In fact, I 

3 would argue in-person testimony is one of the 

4 reasons this program receives strong and robust 

5 public support. 

6 Of course, you're not there just 

7 solely for your own opinions and experience, but 

8 because you are representing one of the 

9 legislative stakeholder categories, and your 

10 public engagement with them is essential. Having 

11 in-person stakeholders set the tone, present 

12 critical concerns and recommendations at the 

13 beginning, demonstrates transparency, ensures 

14 accountability and provides for more consistent 

15 outcomes.

16 These pillars are essential to the 

17 ongoing future of the NOSB-NOP credibility and 

18 public support. You cannot know what you don't 

19 know, and hearing directly from the organic 

20 community at the beginning of the meeting ensures 

21 that strategic issues are raised, acknowledged 

22 and hopefully addressed in a timely manner. 
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1 Please reinstate in-person NOSB public comment. 

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thanks for your 

4 comments. Brian has a question for you.

5 MR. SLIGH: Sure.

6 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thanks 

7 Michael. I totally understand what you're saying 

8 in terms of the in-person meetings, but the 

9 concern that I have is that basically it costs 

10 about, I guess about $2,000 for just the normal 

11 person to attend a meeting say in either Atlanta 

12 or Sacramento or wherever it's going to be, and 

13 lodge themselves and all that sort of stuff.

14 And doesn't that skew the input and 

15 the close interpersonal contact to basically 

16 funded organizations and not -- and away from say 

17 a farmer who might not have $2,000 to spend on 

18 that?

19 MR. SLIGH: Well, I think it's not an 

20 either/or. I think in the beginning, we didn't 

21 have the Internet, so we had to have written 

22 comments that we read ahead of time, and then we 
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1 had people show up. We moved the meetings around 

2 the country to ensure greater access, so that 

3 farmers locally, producers, operators locally 

4 could come and attend maybe just for the one day, 

5 you know, because maybe it's a drive in.

6 So I think in this environment, where 

7 we now have the ability of Zoom and 

8 livestreaming, that I think helps balance that 

9 issue. Certainly if only it was for those who 

10 could afford to come safely, yes it could skew. 

11 But having public --

12 Written comments helps do that, and in 

13 my experience the personal part we do not want to 

14 lose entirely, because we are a hyper15 participatory community, and I think being able 

16 to engage in person is valuable and something 

17 that really helped us as the original NOSB to 

18 really be in tune with what was the pulse of the 

19 people.

20 If they were willing to put out the 

21 effort to show up, that's telling you a lot.

22 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, thank you. 
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1 Yeah, I totally agree with what you just said 

2 there at the end, and it's a balancing act. I'm 

3 almost wondering, I know that -- I know that NOC 

4 gives some scholarships for attending maybe their 

5 meeting and stuff, and maybe somehow that could 

6 be, that could be part of the whole picture. I 

7 don't know, but I really appreciate your input.

8 MR. SLIGH: Sure, thank you to that, 

9 and I appreciate all of your sacrifice to do 

10 this. I know it well, so thank you.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

12 questions for Michael?

13 I will keep mine very brief for fear 

14 of holding us from our break any longer. 

15 Michael, what do you see as the difference 

16 between in-person comments and how we receive 

17 comments virtually?

18 MR. SLIGH: Well, I mean Zoom has been 

19 a blessing in many ways during the pandemic, and 

20 it has helped expand participation. But I think, 

21 I think we don't live in a virtual world, and 

22 having the personal contact, being able to talk 
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1 to someone in the hall, be able to say hey, I 

2 know you, it is a -- it is an essential thing 

3 that this community does not become isolated or 

4 only virtual.

5 So I think we can't lose the human 

6 touch, which is quite important in terms of the 

7 values and the tradition that we are trying to 

8 hear. We're very unique among -- I've served on 

9 many USDA advisory boards, and this one is unique 

10 on purpose. I think being able to come there and 

11 be in person and tell your story is really 

12 irreplaceable.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I worry that we're 

14 conflating two things. You can still come to the 

15 meeting and take us to lunch and talk to us in 

16 the hallways as a farmer at every meeting. 

17 MR. SLIGH: But sitting there for 

18 hours and hours and hours and not being able to 

19 say anything is incredibly frustrating, and also 

20 you may actually be the one person who knows the 

21 answer to a particular question, that would be 

22 brought up at the beginning of the meeting that 
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1 may not have occurred in the written comment, and 

2 may not have occurred in your research prior to 

3 that.

4 I've seen that happen many times. So 

5 I just think you can't, it's not either/or. I 

6 think let's expand access, let's do the virtual, 

7 let's do any way we can to get people's access, 

8 but let's not close off the opportunity for me to 

9 drive in my truck, which I will (audio 

10 interference). So don't close that option out.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

12 ahead.

13 MEMBER LEWIS: Yeah. I'm sorry to 

14 keep us from a break. I realize this is a 

15 challenging position to take as a new Board 

16 member. But I'm curious about trying to find 

17 the right balance here, because I agree with you 

18 100 percent, like all that -- nothing beats in 

19 person. We've been reminded of that through this 

20 pandemic and the isolation and the damage that 

21 can occur.

22 And I also have been really heartened 
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1 by the level playing field that Zoom offers. It 

2 really ensures that those with privilege don't 

3 get undue influence on the Board, which I 

4 personally know is the case when we rely entirely 

5 on in-person comments. 

6 So finding the right balance is the 

7 key, and I'm curious -- just what inspired my 

8 question is just your comment about taking a 

9 drive, that perhaps the in-person comments, as we 

10 continue to move around the country, are limited 

11 to those who are local or within a radius, so 

12 that we, you know, try to find that balance and 

13 encourage the engagement of the local community. 

14 I don't know if that thought has crossed your 

15 group's perspective. But again, finding the

16 balance is what I'm looking for.

17 MR. SLIGH: Yeah, I hear that. I 

18 don't think we've discussed that, but I would 

19 certainly be encouraging all the groups that I 

20 work with to take that topic up. I think we 

21 don't want to lose the in person. I also don't 

22 what to be the barrier between you and a break. 
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1 I know how valuable that is as well.

2 But I think you also would know the 

3 Hot Mike a little quicker if he was in person as 

4 well.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh. Well, thank 

6 you for your comments, Michael, and with that we 

7 are going to go to a break folks. We are going 

8 to come back at 20 after the hour, 2-0. After 

9 our break, we're going to start with Harold 

10 Austin, followed by Mark Kastel and then Angela 

11 Wartes-Kahl. We'll see you all in just about ten 

12 minutes.

13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

14 went off the record at 2:09 p.m. and resumed at 

15 2:20 p.m.)

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, and we 

17 are back. First up, we're going to have Harold 

18 Austin, followed by Mark Kastel and then Angela 

19 Wartes-Kahl. Harold, the floor is yours.

20 MR. AUSTIN: Okay, can you hear me?

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please go 

22 ahead.
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1 MR. AUSTIN: All right. Clear the 

2 screen here. Hi, good morning everybody or good 

3 afternoon I guess, depending on where you're at. 

4 My name's Harold Austin, and I'm a former member 

5 of the NOSB and a lifelong member of the tree 

6 fruit industry here in the Pacific Northwest.

7 Welcome to our two newest members of 

8 the NOSB, and my heartfelt thanks to all the rest 

9 of you for all that you do on behalf of organic 

10 stakeholders across our country. Please refer to 

11 my written comments and those also of the 

12 Northwest Horticultural Council, for a more 

13 detailed set of comments on the various materials 

14 currently under sunset review and discussion this 

15 spring by the members of the NOSB.

16 For crops, I would like to voice my 

17 support for the continued listing of the two 

18 alcohols, the mulches and plastic covers, liquid 

19 fish products, ethylene, elemental sulfur and 

20 lime sulfur. Regarding sulfuric acid on-farm 

21 generated, this material -- this is one that I'm 

22 very familiar with, having used it for over 25 
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1 years on our company's conventional orchards and 

2 on our organic orchards once it was approved.

3 In this process, we burn a 99 percent 

4 pure elemental sulfur in what's called a sulfur 

5 burner, which are high pH irrigation waters and 

6 passthrough. This process helps us to reduce 

7 high pH water. 

8 Normally we begin around 8.3 to 8.5 

9 pH, brings it to a more neutrally balanced pH, 

10 while at the same time it helps us to remove high 

11 mineral content out of the water, especially in 

12 our case, high levels of calcium carbonate. 

13 This allows us to take marginal soils 

14 with extremely poor drainage, and when we combine 

15 this, the use of this benefit from -- with the 

16 inclusion of our composts and our mulches, it 

17 helps to turn these marginal soils into very 

18 robust and productive organic farmland, that 

19 truly embraces the very fundamental principles of 

20 organic farming.

21 This process also helps us to protect 

22 our fruit finishing by removing the calcium 
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1 carbonate from the water. In the summertime when 

2 we reach triple digit temperatures, we use 

3 overhead cooling to take and help keep the apples 

4 from sunburn. With the calcium carbonate in the 

5 water, a lot of time it makes some of that fruit 

6 virtually non-packable.

7 Lime sulfur is also an important 

8 material for organic tree fruit production. This 

9 is one of our most important materials to assist 

10 us early in the season for control of fire 

11 blight, both in apples and in pears. Bloom time 

12 is one of our most critical times of the growing 

13 cycle for control of mildew and fire blight.

14 As we move into a more semi-dwarfing 

15 style of tree and new varieties, varieties I 

16 might add that are consumer-driven, they tend to 

17 be highly susceptible to fire blight. We find it 

18 now even more important than ever that we 

19 maintain a solid plan of action for control of 

20 blight.

21 This is especially true beginning with 

22 the bloom period of fruit development, because if 
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1 blight enters the tree through the blossom, we 

2 will be fighting it the entire season or longer. 

3 For handling, I support the continued 

4 listing of phosphoric acid, nitrogen and 

5 ethylene. One area of importance for phos acid 

6 is the cleaning of our packing equipment, helping 

7 to remove the calcium carbonate buildup on our 

8 cups and belts. This is by far the most superior 

9 material for this step of cleaning in our packing 

10 facilities.

11 I also support the continued 

12 revisiting of in-person, at least modified in13 person presentations at the meeting. The benefit 

14 of that I can't say enough about that, the 

15 interaction that you'll have if you do that. 

16 Thank you.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you 

18 for your comments. Brian has a question for you, 

19 followed by Nate.

20 MR. AUSTIN: Brian.

21 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thank you 

22 Harold. A couple of questions. First of all, 
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1 about the sulfur burning, that is just to treat 

2 the irrigation water, am I correct about that?

3 MR. AUSTIN: Correct.

4 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, because there 

5 was one comment in our written comments that 

6 seemed to think that it was about like basically 

7 trying to change the pH of the soil via that 

8 method, and that's not what it's all about, the 

9 way I understand it.

10 MR. AUSTIN: Well no, but Brian, in 

11 part we are essentially changing the pH of the 

12 soil to some degree, because we're taking a 

13 neutral-based pH water, applying it to the soil, 

14 rather than a water that's at pH of 8.3 to 8.5-

15 8.6. So in fact we are, you know, we're not 

16 adding to the pH levels, but we are in fact 

17 helping to reduce it to some extent, because 

18 we're adding a much lesser pH water to it.

19 MEMBER CALDWELL: So does that say 

20 neutral water actually tend to bring the pH down 

21 of the whole field?

22 MR. AUSTIN: Well it's not, but it's 
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1 not, it's not bringing it up, and I guess that's 

2 the point to make.

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Right, right, yeah 

4 yeah.

5 MR. AUSTIN: We can make the 

6 corrective actions with what we do otherwise, but 

7 at least when we irrigate or we're running frost 

8 control or cooling water in the summer, we're not 

9 elevating that because of the water that we're 

10 applying.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah good.

12 MR. AUSTIN: The other part of that is 

13 the calcification. So it's, you know, by having 

14 a more neutral water without that calcium in it, 

15 it's also lending itself to better penetration 

16 for the water, as well as the nutrients that 

17 we're applying.

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great. And the 

19 second question was I noticed you didn't mention 

20 hydrated lime as in particular something that you 

21 were supporting. I'm trying to get a handle on 

22 how much use there actually is for hydrated lime. 
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1 To me in my mind, it's kind of an old-fashioned 

2 material that's been superseded.

3 But one of the previous speakers said 

4 that they thought it was used in other materials 

5 or products besides Bordeaux mix, which is I 

6 think the main, main use of it. So I'm just 

7 trying to get a handle on how sort of essential 

8 it really is.

9 MR. AUSTIN: Yeah. As far as approved 

10 listings, it's really the Bordeaux mix is where 

11 the hydrated lime's coming into play. And 

12 that's, that's going to be in some of your 

13 colder, wetter, older growing climate areas. I 

14 know that there's areas in California I think 

15 they still use it. 

16 New York, Michigan if I'm not 

17 mistaken. I think there's some areas that are --

18 it's still used there. Here in the Northwest 

19 Pacific, we use the other forms of copper, to be 

20 honest. All the years that I've been a 

21 consultant, I've never written a recommendation 

22 for Bordeaux mix. We don't use it.
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1 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay. Well thank 

2 you. I appreciate that.

3 MR. AUSTIN: You're welcome.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

5 ahead.

6 MEMBER LEWIS: Hey Harold, good to see 

7 you. I have a couple of questions, one on the 

8 sulfur burners. I know that Washington state 

9 grows right around half or maybe a little bit 

10 more of the organic blueberries grown in the 

11 U.S., and that's been where we've seen the 

12 biggest expansion of the crop is in Washington. 

13 From what I understand, it's entirely soil-based.

14 Can you talk about how important the 

15 sulfur burners have been to that growth and 

16 production of organic blueberries in Washington?

17 MR. AUSTIN: Yeah. The sulfur burner, 

18 the sulfuric acid's been fundamentally one of the 

19 cornerstones of us being able to expand our 

20 organic crop production. We're hot, and like I 

21 said, we're dealing with pHs in a lot of our 

22 growing areas that are 8.3 to 8.5-8.6. 
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1 While the use of the sulfur burners 

2 isn't elevating the pH, it's not contributing to 

3 it because we're applying a balanced water. 

4 Blueberries really want to be grown in a pH 

5 that's going to be more down around 5.2, 5.5 or 

6 maybe slightly lower than that. So the burners 

7 also, if it gets hot, we're going to have to run 

8 some overhead water to help keep the berries from 

9 mummifying on us from the sheer impact of the 

10 heat.

11 So having, having the sulfur burners 

12 getting the pH balance, but also getting the 

13 mineral deposits out of the water by that process 

14 helps to take in and provide a balance and a 

15 clean water source that's really beneficial to 

16 the blueberry plants, as well as our other tree 

17 fruit crops, especially apples, especially these 

18 newer types of apple trees that we're farming.

19 MEMBER LEWIS: Okay thanks, and then 

20 just another question on it. You mentioned the 

21 fire blight. I guess I'm just very curious how 

22 it's going? I mean I'm encouraged to hear about 
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1 the planting of resistant root stocks you're 

2 talking about, like and the continuing modeling, 

3 the need for lime sulfur, you know. Without 

4 antibiotics, I mean just how's it going in 

5 managing fire blight in the Pacific Northwest?

6 MR. AUSTIN: You know it's based off 

7 of year, based off of location. Some areas it's 

8 better than others. Last year, one of the 

9 challenges -- we're finding ways to do it. We're 

10 planting, if we can find them, we're planting the 

11 more resistant root stocks to fire blight.

12 But the roots themselves may be fire 

13 blight resistant, but the top part of the tree is 

14 not. And that's where when we're using the lime 

15 sulfur at bloom time to take in and get in there 

16 to take and not give the virus or the bacteria a 

17 place to get rooted, it's important, especially 

18 with these semi-dwarfing types of trees.

19 Our older traditional plantings, we 

20 had a tree that spanned 32 feet wide. Our new 

21 trees, and we were 168 to 200 trees per acre. 

22 Our new trees, we might be 1,200 trees per acre, 
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1 we might be 3,100 trees per acre. We're dealing 

2 with a tree that's got a root bulb that will fit 

3 onto a saucer, and a tree girth and width on the 

4 limbs themselves that might only be two feet 

5 wide.

6 So if we get fire blight started in 

7 these types of trees, it's going to ravage us. I 

8 mean it's going to -- you know, the older trees, 

9 we could maybe cut 18 inches ahead of it and get 

10 it under control before it ran the tree. These 

11 newer trees, if we cut 18 inches we're cutting 

12 into the trunk of the tree, and I mean we're 

13 decimating our blocks.

14 So it's still a challenge, and a lot 

15 of the newer varieties that the consumer, the 

16 organic consumers are asking us to plant are 

17 really high susceptible to blight. So we're 

18 doing everything we can, and it's -- it's 

19 working. But you know, under the right scenario, 

20 the right conditions, it could be devastating.

21 So having as many tools in the toolbox 

22 so that we can have expanded, you know, ways to 
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1 protect, especially in the spring and the bloom 

2 time, so we don't ever let it get started in the 

3 tree. I think that's the key, it's what we can 

4 do on the front side will make it a lot easier 

5 for us to deal with later on the growing season.

6 MEMBER LEWIS: Thanks for that. I 

7 appreciate it.

8 MR. AUSTIN: Yep.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry has a 

10 question for you.

11 MR. AUSTIN: Hi Jerry. You're muted, 

12 Jerry.

13 MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay thank you, and 

14 good to see you Harold. I'm going to try to 

15 thread the needle a little bit on sulfuric acid. 

16 By and large, there's not much opposition to it, 

17 but there is some opposition done by a good 

18 group, a group that I certainly pay attention to, 

19 and it struck me that what they were saying was 

20 sort of negated by how you opened up your 

21 statement.

22 What they oppose or don't feel good 
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1 about is when sulfuric acid is used to sort of 

2 mask poor soils, and the soils are not being 

3 taken care of. The way you opened yours was it 

4 was part -- it was a two-pronged step, where you 

5 were regenerating your soils or improving, 

6 continuously improving your soils the best way 

7 you can, and then you have sulfuric acid for pH 

8 control, but not as a masking agent for a problem 

9 that's left unaddressed. Is that --

10 MR. AUSTIN: Yeah no, that's correct 

11 Jerry. 

12 MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay.

13 MR. AUSTIN: I mean it's dealing with 

14 helping us to reduce the pH of the water, so that 

15 we aren't putting a high pH water onto the soil. 

16 It's also helping us to reduce the mineral 

17 contents, especially calcium carbonate, so that 

18 we're not, we're not taking and dealing with soil 

19 that's going to get compacted because of that, 

20 and is going to create drainage issues, water 

21 penetration, nutrient penetration issues.

22 So but it's only one step of a 
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1 process, and if we're going to use this right, 

2 we're dealing with the water, the impurities of 

3 the water, the pH levels of the water. This is 

4 not a soil amendment to take and modify our pH. 

5 By giving us a water that's a balanced pH, we're 

6 not negatively impacting the pH.

7 I think that's the important thing for 

8 everybody to understand. This is not a mask. 

9 This is part of a process. We still have to take 

10 and apply our mulches, you know. All of our 

11 produce get mulched up and applied back into the 

12 field. If we need compost, we'll bring in 

13 compost and we'll do that.

14 So it's part of an organic systems 

15 process and plan that we firmly support and 

16 believe in.

17 MEMBER LEWIS: Thank you very much. 

18 Appreciate that.

19 MR. AUSTIN: You're welcome.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

21 ahead.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Thanks, Nate. 
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1 Thanks Harold for your time. Again, a question 

2 on sulfuric acid and these sulfur burners. I 

3 appreciate your time with that. There was a 

4 comment by a group and it's an alternative to 

5 sulfurous acids, actually a device instead of a 

6 material. So it's out of our purview per se to 

7 review that, but there was interest 

8 internationally.

9 I think Spain's organic program 

10 approved this, but it is using instead of 

11 sulfurous acids, it's using just water, air and 

12 electricity to alter the pH. I mean it probably 

13 wouldn't get out the impurities like you were 

14 mentioning before to other commenters. 

15 But I just in general, those types of 

16 technologies, do you see them being a beneficial 

17 type of innovation in this sector, since it seems 

18 like there's a reliance on sulfur burners?

19 MR. AUSTIN: You know, I'm never going 

20 to never to anything (audio interruption) -- to 

21 anything that can help us improve what we're 

22 doing out on our farms organically. We've looked 
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1 at a lot of different things in lieu of or in 

2 place of our -- what we can do with the sulfur 

3 burner, and the sulfur burner is by far, for what 

4 we're doing with the oil and getting the 

5 impurities out, and in giving us more neutralized 

6 water.

7 I don't -- there is nothing that we 

8 have looked at yet that replaces this particular 

9 function, and if we were to lose sulfur burners, 

10 I mean we've got one location I know. We would 

11 take out a couple of thousand acres of organic 

12 apples and blueberries and cherries immediately, 

13 because there's no alternative. 

14 So you know, not -- I have no 

15 experience with the process that you're talking 

16 about, but based off of what you've said I don't 

17 think it's a panacea or a replacement completely 

18 for what we do with the sulfur burner. But it 

19 may be a tool for in other areas where we don't 

20 need to accomplish exactly that. 

21 It might be beneficial and it might be 

22 something that we could incorporate into our 
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1 organic farming production.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you Harold.

3 MR. AUSTIN: You're welcome.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan, please go 

5 ahead.

6 MEMBER PETREY: Hi, thank you Harold. 

7 I was actually just going to mention too about 

8 an alternative. We had carbon dioxide on it, so 

9 it was petitioned and passed as a pH water 

10 regulator. Didn't know if you'd used that or if 

11 you saw that coming now that we have that passed 

12 and in the working?

13 MR. AUSTIN: You know, we've -- yeah, 

14 and I've been following that along as well. 

15 Again, as a pH, I think it's one thing. I think 

16 the other thing is the water conditioning factor, 

17 that we're getting the impurities. Calcium 

18 carbonate plugs or emitters if we have it you 

19 know, in our drip systems, if we have it in the 

20 systems.

21 It also is a fruit finish. We get in 

22 our Columbia Basin area, our water is heavy, 
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1 heavy to calcium carbonate in the water. It's 

2 just -- these are white chalky residue that at 

3 the packing houses we can't get it out of the 

4 fruit. So you end up with high cullage, because 

5 you've got now a piece of fruit that's not 

6 presentable for the consumers willing to accept 

7 it. So it's going to get diverted to process.

8 So the calcium carbonate is really one 

9 of the primary reasons that we use it, along with 

10 making sure that, you know, we're getting a water 

11 that is, you know, that pH is down there in that 

12 more neutral area so it's not negatively 

13 impacting our soil pH.

14 So you know, I think it would help us 

15 with the pH part of it, but I don't think it 

16 would give us the benefits that we're looking at 

17 as far as the calcium carbonate goes.

18 MEMBER PETREY: Okay, thank you.

19 MR. AUSTIN: You're welcome.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

21 really appreciate your comments, Harold. 

22 MR. AUSTIN: It's a pleasure. You're 
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1 welcome. Thanks guys.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have

3 Mark Kastel, followed by Angela Wartes-Kahl and 

4 then Emily Moyer. Mark, the floor is yours.

5 MR. KASTEL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

6 My name is Mark Castel. I'm Executive Director 

7 of OrganicEye, a farm policy research group 

8 that's known as an organic industry watchdog. 

9 How's organic doing? Based on data from the 

10 USDA's National Agricultural Statistics Service, 

11 in 2019 just nine giant livestock factories in 

12 Texas -- no, I don't call them farms -- produced 

13 1.5 times more organic milk that 530 farms in 

14 Wisconsin, 1.5 times more.

15 Fast forward to 2021, the most recent 

16 mass data. There are now 13 dairies in Texas 

17 certified as organic. They are currently 

18 producing 2.8 times more milk than the 407 

19 remaining family farms in Wisconsin. During that 

20 couple of years, 123 family farms in Wisconsin 

21 went out of business, and hundreds elsewhere in 

22 the country.
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1 Just as important, over the last two 

2 years literally thousands of conventional family 

3 dairy farms have gone out of business that could 

4 have converted to organics. But the CAFOs have 

5 flooded the market. What's the difference with 

6 these farms? 

7 When I polled organic farmers, they 

8 were moving their cattle in and out pasture and 

9 milking them twice a day, averaging one cow per 

10 acre. How does the certification of those giant 

11 dairies work? One cow per acre. Try five to ten 

12 cows per acre, many times in desert-like 

13 conditions in the Southwest. In technical terms 

14 at OrganicEye, we call that an awful stretch.

15 However, stay tuned. The story gets 

16 better. According to nutrient management plans 

17 filed with the states, most of these dairies cut 

18 feed off the same ground they're calling pasture. 

19 We don't know the percentage of the feed that 

20 they're harvesting for winter use, but let's 

21 pretend it's 50 percent.

22 That would equate to an effective 
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1 stocking rate of not one cow per acre, but 10 to 

2 20 cows per acre. In technical terms, we call 

3 that a joke, and the joke gets even better. 

4 They're milking three and four times a day, not 

5 twice, and transferring their cows out to pasture 

6 on paper.

7 Legitimate organic producers get the 

8 joke. How come the processionals at some of the 

9 certifiers and the USDA have such a poor sense of 

10 humor? If you're attending these meetings and 

11 participating in the organic regulatory theater 

12 without speaking up about the injustices that 

13 real farmers are facing and that the betrayal of 

14 consumers who built this values-based industry, 

15 you're nothing more than an enabler of injustice 

16 and marketplace fraud.

17 Questions from the Board, I'm ready. 

18 Questions from the organic community 

19 stakeholders? If you'd rather have your 

20 questions and concerns voiced in private, in 

21 confidence, please feel free to contact me at 

22 organiceye.org. Thank you very much.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

2 Mark?

3 All right, we appreciate your time.

4 MR. KASTEL: Thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

6 Angela Wartes-Kahl, followed by Emily Moyer and 

7 then Adam Seitz. Angela, please go ahead.

8 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Hi, can you hear me?

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

10 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Okay, great. My 

11 name is Angeles Wartes-Kahl from the Organic 

12 Integrity Cooperative Guild. I'm based in 

13 Poulsbo, Washington, on ancestral and occupied 

14 Suquamish tribal land. My comments pertain to 

15 the Handling Subcommittee proposal for ion 

16 exchange filtration process. 

17 The Organic Integrity Cooperative 

18 Guild is a cooperative of organic inspectors, 

19 reviewers and consultants who also farm. We have 

20 come together to further professionalism in the 

21 organic integrity -- sorry, in the organic 

22 industry, and promote a dynamic and growing 
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1 trustworthy organic marketplace.

2 We strongly agree with the 

3 Subcommittee's decision to favor Option 1, 

4 specifically net resin in materials do not need 

5 to be listed on the National List. From our own 

6 collective experience, both having reviewed and 

7 inspected dozens of different operations 

8 utilizing this technology, we concur that ion 

9 exchange resins do not meet the definition of an 

10 ingredient or a processing aid.

11 They are reviewed as part of the 

12 certifier's initial and annual organic system 

13 plan review process. They're also reviewed as 

14 part of -- as where certifiers -- verifying that 

15 each specific resin brand formulation is approved 

16 by FDA as a food contact substance. Confirmation 

17 that each material is FDA-approved is completed 

18 through a review of label specification sheets 

19 provided by the materials supplier.

20 Certifiers and inspectors annually 

21 verify that recharged materials are not only 

22 consistent with the National List, but also the 
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1 brands and specific formulations are tracked as 

2 part of the operator's list of allowed materials. 

3 Some commenters even at this late date continue 

4 to repeat the erroneous idea that ion exchange 

5 columns could be subject to leakage.

6 Please see our comments from the fall 

7 2022 meeting, where we along with the Organic 

8 Trade Association point out that the notion of 

9 column leakage appears to arise from a 

10 misinterpretation of the publication of ion 

11 exchange for dummies. As they explain, the 

12 concept of leaking is not from the ion exchange 

13 columns but rather the possibility of undesirable 

14 compounds that were previously removed from the 

15 food itself.

16 And so working back into the product 

17 flow. Think arsenic that was removed from apple 

18 juice or rice syrup. The concept of leakage has 

19 nothing to do with the degradation of the ion 

20 exchange feeds themselves. Their capacity might 

21 be full and need a recharge, but this does not 

22 result in the resins themselves entering the 
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1 final organic product. 

2 I would encourage the Board to 

3 consider the broad use of ion exchange technology 

4 for water treatment plants. Do we plan to list 

5 municipal water sources on the National List as 

6 allowed or not? And finally, organic is climate7 smart and yes to GPS or township and range 

8 coordinates on every organic certificate. Thank 

9 you for your time in these matters.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

11 your comments. Questions from the Board for 

12 Angela? Kyla has a question for you.

13 MEMBER SMITH: Hey Angela, thanks for 

14 your comments. Based on your experience 

15 inspecting operations that may use ion exchange 

16 systems, am I correct in the assumption that 

17 through that verification of adherence to their 

18 organic system plan, as well as other federal and 

19 state authorities that regulate food safety, that 

20 there is a lot of oversight into use of these 

21 systems? Is that an accurate assumption?

22 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Absolutely. I mean 
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1 it's quite a technical process and so there needs 

2 to be SOPs in place to make sure that their 

3 recharged units are correctly monitored and are 

4 working and functioning properly, just like there 

5 would be with any QA system for the entire plant 

6 operation.

7 I mean we're talking like molasses 

8 filtration. I mean it's huge. It's not --

9 they're not small home-based systems. I mean 

10 maybe they could be, I don't know. Things we've 

11 seen is much bigger. Industrial process, yeah.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison, please go 

13 ahead.

14 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you, Angela. 

15 This is really helpful. I mentioned earlier, I'm 

16 still trying to sort of understand how resins fit 

17 into the scheme of just materials that come in 

18 contact with organic products, analogous to a 

19 plastic or something else where there may be a 

20 real risk of something leaching out of it, 

21 understanding of what you just laid out.

22 But a properly functioning resin is 
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1 not intended to have an interaction with the 

2 materials that are being processed through ion 

3 exchange. I'm curious if you could speak to 

4 anything you know about that risk, and any way 

5 that we might provide, you know, further 

6 assurance or further monitoring to keep tabs on 

7 if and how that may be a risk that we should be 

8 concerned about.

9 MS. WARTES-KAHL: I'm not familiar 

10 with any testing available that would show that 

11 there was a possibility of a filtration bead in a 

12 finished organic product, because there's more 

13 filtration that happens after the ion exchange, 

14 like things to take out other debris or, you 

15 know, sediment, sludge, leaves, all kinds of 

16 different stuff.

17 So if it was free and floating in the 

18 pre-organic product, then it would probably be 

19 caught again by another saver filtration system 

20 past the ion exchange. So it's not like it's --

21 you're going to drink apple juice and there's not 

22 going to be a plastic bead sitting in it. That 
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1 seems really unlikely. 

2 MEMBER JOHNSON: I'm really worried 

3 about -- you know that a particle that can be 

4 physically filtered out, but analogous to a 

5 plastic degradation product or something like 

6 that, or like a chemical leaching. Some of us go 

7 back.

8 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Yeah. I mean it's -

9 - their action is to pull out. Like their 

10 action, their action is to grab and pull out the 

11 impurities. And so then they themselves need to 

12 release from those impurities in a recharged 

13 system to be able to function properly. 

14 The plastic used is highly stable. I 

15 don't -- the likelihood of it occurring, like 

16 being able to find it later in an organic product 

17 through a test is so small. I don't even, I 

18 haven't been able to find anything that shows 

19 that there's a test for that I guess is my short 

20 answer.

21 And then for the testing that we have 

22 seen, it's mostly about whether or not the 
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1 recharged unit is working correctly with the 

2 cations and ions being interchanged between the 

3 two. Like is it properly functioning, and you 

4 can do tests to determine that aspect of it, and 

5 the overall, I would say like --

6 I guess I can't go into greater 

7 detail, but I feel like there is information out 

8 there specifically around water treatment 

9 facilities, and how they test the accuracy and 

10 success of their systems that we could maybe 

11 adopt for organic. It seems far-reaching and 

12 expensive, I guess. That's my, yeah.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian has a 

14 question for you.

15 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thanks Angela, 

16 and I must say that I am not as up reading this 

17 voluminous literature that we've received on this 

18 topic as I probably should be. But are these 

19 beads, are they pure resin or are they, like many 

20 other plastics, a composite with a lot of 

21 different materials in them, in addition to the 

22 active ingredient, which is the resin?
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1 MS. WARTES-KAHL: They're a polyblend. 

2 So yeah --

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: I'm sorry. Would 

4 you define that? I don't, I don't know what that 

5 means.

6 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Poly, hold on one 

7 second. I'm not a very -- I'm not, I have a hard 

8 time --

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, we can also 

10 have you follow up with Brian too.

11 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Exactly the word --

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're not going to 

13 put you on the spot --

14 MS. WARTES-KAHL: I'm going to have 

15 like 100 pages open on my laptop of so many 

16 different parts of ion exchange technology. And 

17 so I'm like okay, now I have to find the exact

18 words that you're looking for. If I could pass 

19 on that and send it in the chat, just because I 

20 can't do it as quickly as you might need. And 

21 then also --

22 (Simultaneous speaking.)
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If you'd send it 

2 to Michelle, that would be great, and then she 

3 could pass it on to the Board.

4 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Okay, let's do that. 

5 Yes.

6 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great.

7 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Sorry for not being 

8 up on it. I apologize.

9 MEMBER CALDWELL: The reason I mention 

10 it is that so many times, you know, we get, we 

11 might get focused on the active ingredient, but 

12 there may be other things going on too, and it 

13 would be good to have as big a picture as we can 

14 get.

15 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Understood, yes.

16 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you very much.

17 MS. WARTES-KAHL: For sure.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

19 questions for Angela? 

20 All right. We appreciate your time 

21 today, Angela. Thank you.

22 MS. WARTES-KAHL: Thank you all for 
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1 your work.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

3 Emily Moyer, followed by Adam Seitz. Emily, 

4 please go ahead.

5 MS. MOYER: Hi everyone, thank you. 

6 My name is Emily Moyer, and I am the Vice 

7 President of Regulatory Compliance and Global 

8 Food Safety Standards for the International Fresh 

9 Produce Association. As always, thank you first 

10 to the Board for the extensive amount of work 

11 that you do outside of your day jobs in reviewing 

12 and considering all of these inputs on the sunset 

13 list, as well as your consideration of the 

14 stakeholder comments that you've receive each and 

15 every year.

16 IFPA represents every segment of the 

17 global fresh produce supply chain, with 

18 approximately 3,000 member companies, over 500 of 

19 which are directly involved in the organic fresh 

20 fruit, vegetable and floral supply chain. For 

21 the sake of time, I'll be touching on just a few 

22 inputs under sunset consideration, but IFPA has 
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1 submitted written comments to the docket with our 

2 support and feedback on additional inputs as 

3 well.

4 Being a food safety person by 

5 background, I'll start off first and foremost 

6 with IFPA's support to maintain bulk ethanol and 

7 isopropanol on the National List on algaecides, 

8 disinfectants and sanitizers. Coming from a 

9 produce industry perspective, when food-borne 

10 illness outbreaks occur, they don't just impact 

11 the implicated firm itself, but they have a 

12 highly negative impact on that commodity industry 

13 as a whole.

14 For that reason, it's critical that 

15 organic producers and handlers have access to a 

16 variety of inputs to sanitize their tools and 

17 surfaces, and maintain their irrigation lines, 

18 all in all helping to prevent cross-contamination 

19 and ultimately protect public health. 

20 And even if certain sanitizing 

21 products aren't used as the primary sanitizing 

22 agent, it's important to maintain this list of 
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1 options, so that operations have the ability to 

2 rotate their use of sanitizers as needed. 

3 We also support maintaining plastic 

4 mulch and covers on the National List for weed 

5 barriers, which is one of the most challenging 

6 and costly components of organic production. 

7 Plastic mulch also helps with moisture 

8 conservation in the soil and generally helps 

9 improve crop yield and quality.

10 And for that reason, plastic mulch is 

11 used widely across our industry. In absence of 

12 equally effective alternatives and innovations 

13 being currently available, the loss of plastic 

14 mulch would be extremely economically damaging to 

15 the industry. 

16 And although it may not be used as 

17 much plastic, we also support maintaining 

18 newspaper or other recycled paper for these 

19 purposes as well, again in support of maintaining 

20 options for growers of all sizes and in all 

21 regions, so that they can determine really what 

22 is best for their operation.
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1 Later today and on Thursday, you'll be 

2 hearing from some IFPA organic community members, 

3 as well with their own feedback on inputs of need 

4 for our industry, including but not limited to 

5 elemental sulfur, lime sulfur, liquid fish 

6 products, sulfurous acid and aqueous potassium 

7 silicate. And so with that, I thank you again 

8 for your time and consideration today.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we thank you 

10 for your comments. Any questions for Emily from 

11 the Board? Franklin has a question for you. 

12 Franklin, please go ahead.

13 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yeah. I'm interested 

14 in finding out what your views on the 

15 biodegradable plastic mulch is from -- I've heard 

16 different things from farmers on that. What's 

17 your view on that?

18 MS. MOYER: Thank you, sorry. I muted 

19 myself and had to get unmuted. Yeah, this is 

20 something that we did also comment on last year, 

21 as it was under, in discussion in the past 

22 meeting. And I would also say I'd turn to both 
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1 Emily Musgrave and Russ Hamlin, who are on our 

2 Organic Committee, who will be speaking later in 

3 the day.

4 But in general, we were supportive of 

5 maintaining BBMF as another option or 

6 alternative, recognizing that the existing 

7 plastic mulch, it is a lot of plastic in the 

8 environment. I think if those alternatives were 

9 available, absolutely our growers would want to 

10 use those. But it's a matter of -- for BBMF, 

11 making sure that option is available so that also 

12 the developers have the ability and really the 

13 incentive to be able to innovate those products.

14 So if in the future it is a reasonable 

15 alternative, that growers would be able to switch 

16 to that if it works for them.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood has a 

18 question for you.

19 MEMBER TURNER: Thanks for your 

20 comments, Emily. I'm just curious. I appreciate 

21 your comments about plastic mulch and covers, and 

22 I just wanted to ask you, and I totally get the 
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1 feedback you're giving about the need and how 

2 important it is for growers. 

3 But I'm also interested in whether 

4 your conversation with your growers, with your 

5 members has sort of extended to anecdotal 

6 information about plastics that get left behind, 

7 the need to, you know, plastics that break down 

8 and get left behind on the farm, the need to find 

9 better solutions for recovering some of that 

10 material and not assuming that it's used, 

11 degrades, ends up in a landfill.

12 I'm just curious sort of the level of 

13 engagement that your organization is doing to 

14 kind of think about that, and how you, how you --

15 yeah, your thoughts on that need.

16 MS. MOYER: It is certainly part of 

17 the conversation. I think our growers right now 

18 are just in a tough position, because there just 

19 are not those alternatives available and I think 

20 from a just financial standpoint, it would be 

21 incredibly economically difficult, or really 

22 would not be very viable for producers to be able 
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1 to make the yields that they need for production, 

2 without the use of plastic mulch.

3 So I'm not as familiar in terms of 

4 just what exists right now, in terms of what do 

5 we know about the breakdown in soils. Again, 

6 that would be something I think maybe is better 

7 for our committee members who can speak to that 

8 as well in their specific uses. 

9 But it is something that we're, I 

10 think consistently engaging with the providers as 

11 well, to say okay, what, what's new, kind of 

12 what's the status and what's the efficacy at this 

13 point for all this.

14 MEMBER TURNER: Yeah, I agree with 

15 you. I agree with your point about alternatives. 

16 I do believe that the conversation about end of 

17 life needs to be a lot more robust here, and I'm 

18 -- that's a very real concern of mine, so I 

19 appreciate that. Thank you. 

20 MS. MOYER: Absolutely, uh-huh.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

22 other questions for Emily from the Board? 
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1 Thank you, Emily, for your time and 

2 contributions today.

3 MS. MOYER: Thank you, everyone.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next, 

5 we have Adam Seitz, followed by Orsi Deszi and 

6 then Mollie Morrissette. 

7 MR. SEITZ: Good afternoon. Adam 

8 Seitz here, calling in from State College, PA. 

9 I'm a senior technical reviewer for Quality 

10 Assurance International, a leading provider of 

11 organic certification services worldwide. 

12 My comment focuses on the Handling 

13 Subcommittee's current ion exchange resin 

14 recommendation, which QAI supports based on the 

15 extensive comments we've submitted on the topic. 

16 Examining comments that oppose the 

17 recommendation, there's a perspective that ion 

18 exchange resins are functionally different than 

19 other food compact substances, and that they are 

20 designed to facilitate chemical changes in 

21 organic foods.

22 I disagree. There is a change in the 
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1 makeup product process via ion exchange 

2 filtration. However, the only substance added to 

3 product during ion exchange filtration is coming 

4 from recharged materials. This is why the 

5 recharged materials do need to be on the National 

6 List. Ultimately, resins are regulated by the 

7 FDA as food contact substances. They do not 

8 qualify as ingredients or processing aids, and as 

9 such are outside the NOP's regulatory authority.

10 Additionally, ion exchange filtration 

11 is commonly used in the purification of several 

12 non-organic National List substances, including 

13 those classified as non-synthetic and 

14 agricultural. Ion exchange filtration is 

15 referenced in several of the TERs NOSB uses to 

16 classify materials, including for citric acid and 

17 non-synthetic and for agricultural forms of 

18 glycerin.

19 The assertion that organic food 

20 processed with ion exchange filtration is 

21 synthetic is not consistent with previous NOSB or 

22 NOP classification determinations or official 
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1 guidance. Per NOP Guidance 5033, Section 4.4, 

2 "Classification guidance does not determine the 

3 eligibility of a substance for organic 

4 certification." 

5 Organic food processed with ion 

6 exchange filtration is organic food, just like 

7 organic maple sap processed via reverse osmosis 

8 filtration through semi-permeable membranes made 

9 up of thin film polyamide composite, with a poly, 

10 soft foam porous overlayer makes for delicious 

11 organic maple syrup.

12 In contrast to concerns about the 

13 hypothetical contamination of organic product by 

14 properly maintained ion exchange systems, ion 

15 exchange filtration can be and is often used to 

16 remove contaminants from substances. 

17 The EPA drinking water treatability 

18 database notes that though typically used for 

19 water softening, ion exchange filtration is more 

20 frequently being used for the removal of 

21 contaminants such as arsenic, chlortetracycline, 

22 chromium, cobalt, cyanide, fluoride, mercury, 
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1 nitrates, PFAS, perchlorate perfluorooctane 

2 sulfonate, radium and other environmental 

3 contaminants.

4 To be clear, the question at hand is 

5 not just about ion exchange resins; it's about 

6 the 5,000 plus other food contact substances that 

7 are approved by the FDA as such. Does FCN No. 

8 2074, consisting of a tungsten carbide alloy used 

9 in food equipment wear parts, meaning it breaks 

10 down, require National List inclusion? How about 

11 FCN No. 2226, a complex polymer used in the 

12 manufacture of coatings for repeated use food 

13 contact articles?

14 These, like ion exchange resins, like 

15 pneumatic ingredient batching systems, like the 

16 referenced maple sap RO membrane, like other food 

17 processing equipment and food contact substances, 

18 are outside the scope of regulatory authority, 

19 since they are neither ingredients nor processing 

20 aids. Thank you much for your efforts and the 

21 opportunity to comment.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 
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1 those comments. Brian has a question for you.

2 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Adam. I'm 

3 still trying to understand a lot of this. Again, 

4 I really need to read more about it and I will, 

5 certainly before the fall meeting. But anyways, 

6 you said that there's not a chemical change and 

7 you were sort of implying that the only thing 

8 that would be happening would be that the 

9 recharged materials might be added to the, to the 

10 product, and that's why they had to be, they had 

11 to be approved.

12 But actually, isn't it that the 

13 recharged materials would be separated into their 

14 ionic forms and there would be an exchange, for 

15 instance taking arsenic out of the solution and 

16 adding another ion from the recharged material, 

17 not the whole recharged material because it would 

18 only be like say the positive ions that would 

19 have to be exchanged. 

20 So wouldn't that be considered -- I 

21 mean I think that's pretty clearly a chemical 

22 change in my mind. That may not be the critical 
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1 issue here, but I really don't see how you can 

2 say that there's no chemical change that is 

3 happening in the product. 

4 MR. SEITZ: Yeah. I think most forms 

5 of food processing result in chemical changes, 

6 meaning you know, mixing any ingredients together 

7 are going to result in at the base a chemical 

8 change. So yeah, the ion may be coming from the 

9 recharged material. I guess view that in my 

10 previous comment, tried to equate that to say a 

11 batching system where you dissolve citric acid 

12 into a solution and the individual ions are being 

13 batched into the organic product.

14 So yeah. I mean chemistry is going on 

15 in all aspects of food processing. Thermal 

16 degradation denatures proteins, you know. It's 

17 all, all --

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, and I mean 

19 that's right, and that's -- again, this may not 

20 be the critical issue here at all. But that's, 

21 that is our criterion for deciding whether 

22 something is synthetic or not, and maybe Kyla's 
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1 going to help me with this. But yeah. I'm out 

2 of my -- just trying to sort it all out and 

3 thanks for your comment.

4 MR. SEITZ: Yep. I would to just 

5 reiterate that that classification guidance for 

6 determining synthetic/non-synthetic, ag/non-ag, 

7 which we use all the time, get very in deep in 

8 the review of substances. That doesn't apply to 

9 determining whether something is acceptable for 

10 organic certification.

11 Very clearly stipulated within that 

12 guidance document that that does not pertain to 

13 assessing a product as far as whether or not it 

14 can be certified.

15 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla, please go 

17 ahead.

18 MEMBER SMITH: Thanks, Adam. You 

19 always seem to pack in so many things into your 

20 comment, with so many more than like three 

21 syllable words. That's quite impressive. So my 

22 questions for you, based on your written 
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1 comments, it's my understanding that QAI does 

2 follow the process that's outlined in the 

3 proposal.

4 And so I just want to confirm a few 

5 things based on your experience involving that 

6 process. So am I accurate to say that the resins 

7 that QAI currently allows are not a mystery. 

8 They are publicly listed on the FDA's inventory 

9 of Effective Food Contact Substances Notification 

10 database, or the Inventory of Food Contact 

11 Substances listed in 21 C.F.R.? That's the first 

12 part of my question.

13 Secondly again, as part of the review 

14 of an operations organic system plan and 

15 evaluation of adherence to that organic system 

16 plan, the onsite inspection, again just assuming 

17 or is it a safe assumption that operations are 

18 incorporating good management practices and 

19 adherence to other regulatory requirements 

20 related to food safety by federal and state 

21 authorities as part of this review and 

22 verification?
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1 Meaning that again, there's lots of 

2 oversight occurring here. So just if you can 

3 speak to those points, that would be great.

4 MR. SEITZ: Yeah, definitely. You 

5 know, yes to both of those for sure. So you 

6 know, specifically at QAI, our operations 

7 document resins within their OSP, specifically 

8 within our addendum materials list, where we list 

9 -- asked, ask folks to list out all sorts of 

10 materials they're using and equipment.

11 They also specify how they're used, 

12 where they're used in the process flow, what 

13 inputs are used in their maintenance including 

14 the recharged materials. We get spec sheets and 

15 manufacturer's supporting documents for the 

16 resins and verify they are considered food 

17 contact substances using those publicly available 

18 databases.

19 You know, adherence to OSP gets 

20 verified at inspection. Traceback audits are 

21 always a great tool for verifying organic control 

22 points are implemented, especially on a per batch 
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1 basis. So that would include verifying that the 

2 resins used to process a particular product and 

3 the recharged materials are documented in the 

4 records, and as reported to QAI. 

5 So trace a product back through the 

6 production records, there should be records 

7 showing what resins are utilized, what recharged 

8 materials are utilized, and those things are 

9 physically observed onsite of course. 

10 Verifying proper maintenance 

11 definitely I'd say largely falls under the 

12 purview of federal, state and local food safety 

13 inspections. 

14 So there's that layer of verification. 

15 Verifying an operation is current and in good 

16 standing on the required food safety inspections 

17 is one means of ensuring, you know, say ensuring 

18 compliance with 205.272 with regards to potential 

19 contamination via food processing equipment.

20 This is verified during every 

21 inspection, you know. It's baked into our 

22 inspection checklist. I'm pretty it's baked into 
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1 most inspectors' checklists. We also verify 

2 whether there are outstanding requirements from 

3 food safety inspections, with implications on 

4 organic integrity, meaning if maintenance of ion 

5 exchange filtration systems were deemed 

6 inadequate during food safety inspections, 

7 definitely something we'd be following up on.

8 You know, we have -- our inspectors, 

9 of course, take a look at, you know, to make sure 

10 equipment's well-maintained and such onsite. But 

11 largely that, that falls under food safety 

12 inspections, and whether federal, state, local 

13 food safety inspections. 

14 You know, as far as oversight goes via 

15 testing of the resins themselves, that's come up 

16 a lot and we don't see any testing of the resins 

17 on the ground. Though to be fair, outside of the 

18 pesticide residue testing we and other certifiers 

19 conduct, we don't test for contaminants 

20 specifically from food processing equipment, 

21 packaging and similar since this really aligns 

22 moreso with federal food safety requirements and 
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1 their approval of materials.

2 You know, I believe there are resin 

3 testing requirements from a safety perspective 

4 incorporated into the FDA's safety assessment for 

5 food contact substances, which does offer an 

6 additional layer of oversight. This morning at 

7 the mention of testing of the resins, did a 

8 little search through literature and just kind of 

9 wanted to see more thoroughly what these food 

10 contact substances go through in order to get 

11 approved by the FDA.

12 I guess I'd recommend the Board take a 

13 look at Preparation of Food Contact Substance 

14 Notifications Toxicology Recommendations Guidance 

15 For Industry. 

16 It goes through what they would like 

17 to see for these safety assessments, I believe 

18 goes over safety testing recommendations, minimum 

19 taste testing recommendations, safety testing 

20 protocols, application of the testing 

21 recommendations, genetic toxicity testing 

22 recommendations, safety narrative, comprehensive 
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1 toxicology profile, determination of non-observed 

2 effects, all sorts of stuff that is above my pay 

3 grade.

4 But these things are looked at and 

5 assessed by the FDA as they are approving these 

6 food contact substances.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

8 ahead.

9 MEMBER LEWIS: Hey Adam, good to see 

10 you, and thanks for referencing my favorite part 

11 of the NOB Handbook, classification of materials. 

12 And just so -- just back to the conversation we 

13 were having about just the classification and ion 

14 exchange columns' impact on whether something 

15 would be considered synthetic/non-synthetic, my 

16 understanding -- so for example citric acid you 

17 brought up as a non-synthetic material in 605.

18 The reason it's still considered non19 synthetic is because of 4.6 and the three 

20 categorical elements that ion exchange columns 

21 would be an example of. So the end of the 

22 extraction process, there hasn't been a chemical 
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1 change: it's not been altered into a form that 

2 doesn't exist in nature, and anything that's been 

3 used to isolate it is not -- doesn't have a 

4 functional or technical effect on the final food.

5 So am I in the right place there for 

6 like how we would send something through an ion 

7 exchange column as a non-synthetic and it would 

8 result still in a non-synthetic? Am I -- is it 

9 at least your understanding? Would you be in 

10 agreement with me on that? Well, we've got to 

11 ask you to unmute.

12 MR. SEITZ: That's correct, yeah. So 

13 there are many substances that go through pretty 

14 complex processes to be extracted and isolated 

15 and purified, to get to this final ingredient 

16 that's being utilized. So yes, those are the 

17 criteria we are looking at.

18 And you know, I'll be the first to say 

19 classification is not perfect. There are 

20 discrepancies baked into the regulation, looking 

21 at pectin. Like you're in the definition of --

22 is it synthetic or non-synthetic, yet classified 
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1 as something otherwise? It's been a while since 

2 I've looked at it. But it's not perfect. It's 

3 guidance that we use to make determinations for 

4 sure. 

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, Adam. 

6 Well I will echo Kyla. Thank you for fitting so 

7 much into such a short period of time, and thank 

8 you for joining us today. Next up we have Orsi 

9 Deszi, followed by Mollie Morrissette, and then 

10 Alice Runde. Orsi, or have I got your name --

11 MS. DESZI: You've got the first name 

12 right. It's no worries. My name is Orsi Deszi, 

13 and I am the Executive Director of OMRI. So on 

14 behalf of OMRI, thank you to the NOSB for their 

15 advocacy of transparent and trustworthy 

16 verification at every level of the organic 

17 industry. 

18 Fulfilling its role to review and 

19 recommend, the NOSB has called upon the NOP to 

20 implement a formal accreditation program for 

21 material review organizations. Now it's the 

22 NOP's turn to act. 
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1 Consumers trust the organic label, 

2 producers rely on the judgments of accredited 

3 certifying bodies, and the NOP verifies the 

4 competency of certifiers in accordance with the 

5 Organic Foods Production Act. These multilevel 

6 checks are vital to maintaining producers' and 

7 consumers' confidence in organic products.

8 But there's a crucial link missing 

9 from this chain of oversight. An array of inputs 

10 are needed to produce any organic product. 

11 Nearly three decades ago, OMRI was founded to 

12 respond to the challenge of coordinating input 

13 material review. Today, producers and certifiers 

14 depend on MROs like OMRI to verify that the 

15 inputs used in their farms and factories comply 

16 with NOP requirements.

17 And yet more than a decade since the 

18 NOSB's recommendation, MROs themselves lack 

19 formal accreditation oversight from the NOP. 

20 Accreditation is vital to support and ensure the 

21 consistency and transparency of material review, 

22 to provide legal protection and a firm legal 
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1 foundation for MROs and their product listing 

2 decision, to provide the NOP with legal authority 

3 over MROs, including the ability to suspend 

4 accreditation and issue non-conformances, and 

5 above all else, MRO accreditation sends a message 

6 to organic stakeholders that all aspects of the 

7 organic sector are under direct USDA oversight.

8 With the work being done on the USDA 

9 Farm Bill by the organic industry and the renewed 

10 focus on preserving organic integrity at all 

11 stages of certification through the strengthening 

12 of organic enforcement rules, materials cannot be 

13 left out of this discussion. 

14 Accordingly, OMRI adamantly affirms 

15 the NOSB's 2011 recommendation that the NOP 

16 directly accredit MROs. This is the best and 

17 clearest path forward to achieve consistency and 

18 transparency around input material review, and to 

19 bring the organic industry into alignment when it 

20 comes to materials.

21 The time has come for the NOP to 

22 accredit MROs for a stronger and more supported 
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1 industry. Thank you so much.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

3 comments. Any questions for Orsi? 

4 All right, thank you. Oh, let's see. 

5 Amy, please go ahead.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Nate. Thank 

7 you Orsi. That was really interesting about your 

8 comment on accreditation for MROs. I'm thinking, 

9 is there much cross-collaboration with MROs 

10 internationally? I know OMRI's expanding their 

11 presence internationally, Mexico and Canada. 

12 But I'm just thinking on a global 

13 stage, you know, we're just fortunate to have you 

14 guys and the others domestically to help us out. 

15 But I just wondered about that communication 

16 chain internationally?

17 MS. DESZI: For clarification, 

18 communication chain amongst MROs or with --

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, yeah. Sorry, 

20 exactly, the first one. Just because, you know, 

21 we have agencies like ACA that are, you know, 

22 cross-collaborative with other certifiers under 
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1 the NOP program. But I just didn't know if there 

2 was a forum for MROs to cross-collaborate.

3 MS. DESZI: There isn't a formal forum 

4 just for MROs, but we definitely participate in 

5 global initiatives, where we talk about 

6 materials, input materials and how they're 

7 reviewed and the various requirements and 

8 recommendations for them. So you know, we 

9 attended, were part of IFOAM where we discuss 

10 that quite a bit, and OEFFA, that's something 

11 that gets discussed. But there isn't just a 

12 forum specific to material review organizations. 

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you. Thanks for 

14 all your work.

15 MS. DESZI: Thank you.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

17 questions from the Board?

18 All right. Thank you, Orsi. We 

19 appreciate your time today. Next up we have 

20 Mollie Morrissette, followed by Alice Runde and 

21 then Oren Holle. Mollie, please go ahead.

22 MS. MORRISSETTE: Hi. My name's 
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1 Mollie Morrissette. I'm a regulatory advisor to 

2 OFGO, FDA and the CBM, and I'm a consumer 

3 advisor for safe pet food. The organic pet food 

4 market in 2022 in the U.S. is worth $2 billion, 

5 and the global organic pet food size was valued 

6 at 18 billion, 18.7 billion in 2021. 

7 Yet despite these numbers and 

8 consumers' growing interest in organic pet food, 

9 there are no USDA NOP standards for pet food 

10 today. In 2008, the NOSB provided -- sorry 

11 approved a recommendation for organic standards 

12 specific to pet food. Yet 14 years later, 

13 standards still need to be developed to provide 

14 clear and consistent composition, processing and 

15 labeling requirements for organic pet food.

16 According to OFGO, organic 

17 regulations, pet foods claiming to be organic 

18 must meet its human food regulations. Yet in a 

19 recent discussion with the USDA, I learned that 

20 organic pet food certification, certified 

21 operations and organic certifying agents follow 

22 organic regulations for organic livestock 
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1 production, handling and processing.

2 Here's the problem. I found a 

3 patchwork of confusing and conflicting 

4 interpretation of certifying pet food in my 

5 research on certified pet food. For example, I 

6 learned that some accredited certifying agents 

7 are certifying pet food under a combination of 

8 human food and livestock rule, and another ACA 

9 certified pet food used part of the livestock 

10 rule as the basis for certifying pet food, and 

11 was oblivious to the human grade pet food law.

12 Because the NOP doesn't have 

13 regulatory guidance on organic pet food, 

14 certifiers determine whether the standards are 

15 for human food, livestock feed or a combination 

16 of both. Likewise, state feed control officials 

17 need help to regulate organic pet food claims. 

18 To preserve the integrity of the USDA 

19 organic program, the NOP must clarify the 

20 requirements for the organic production of pet 

21 food, so that certifiers follow the same rules 

22 and consumers can be confident that the pet food 
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1 they purchase is made of human food and not 

2 animal feed rules. Thank you very much for 

3 listening.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

5 comments. Any questions for Mollie? Nate, 

6 please go ahead.

7 MEMBER LEWIS: Yeah. I just want to 

8 make sure Mollie that you are tracking that NOSB 

9 has made recommendations on pet food in the past, 

10 passed along and NOP has promised a proposed rule 

11 for some time now, which I understand is in its 

12 marking rule. So we're waiting with baited 

13 breath, and we agree with you 100 percent that we 

14 need unified organic standards for pet food. So 

15 thanks.

16 MS. MORRISSETTE: Right, thank you. 

17 Yeah, it's particularly important because every 

18 year, the market keeps increasing and unless we 

19 have clear definitions, we're kind of at a loss 

20 or the consumers are at a loss to what they're 

21 actually getting. 

22 Particularly what a lot of people 
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1 don't understand is that when you're 

2 manufacturing pet food, if it's -- if it's -- if 

3 it is organic, it has to be made to human food 

4 standards, which means it has to be made in a 

5 human food processing plant. Most pet foods are 

6 made in pet food processing plants, which are 

7 under a completely different set of regulations.

8 (Simultaneous speaking.)

9 MS. MORRISSETTE: Yeah, sorry. Go 

10 ahead.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim, you can go 

12 ahead.

13 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi Mollie. I really 

14 appreciate your comments today. This might be a 

15 somewhat silly question. When we define pets, 

16 are we speaking very specifically to cats and 

17 dogs, or are there other extensions to pets which 

18 you were referring to in your comments?

19 MS. MORRISSETTE: Kimberly, that is a 

20 great question, and since I didn't have enough 

21 time, you know, I only had three minutes, I 

22 narrowed my focus to pet food. But actually, the 
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1 law has to include animal feed, which is a whole 

2 other -- it's for livestock. But it's just, 

3 it's not just cats and dogs. It's also they're 

4 called small animals, gerbils and what-not. So 

5 you know, yeah.

6 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay, thank you very 

7 much.

8 MS. MORRISSETTE: Yeah.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

10 questions from the Board?

11 All right, Mollie. We appreciate your 

12 time. Thank you.

13 MS. MORRISSETTE: Thank you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

15 Alice Runde, followed by Oren Halle and then John 

16 Foster. Alice, please go ahead.

17 MS. RUNDE: Hi, thanks. Good 

18 afternoon. My name is Alice Runde. I'm the 

19 coalition manager for the National Organic 

20 Coalition. My comments today pertain to three 

21 topics, racial equity, participation in the NOSB 

22 process and publication of notes and TRs. 
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1 On racial equity, in our comments we 

2 emphasize two things that NOSB could immediately 

3 prioritize. First, anti-racism and cultural 

4 sensitivity training for NOSB members. NOSB 

5 members should have a good understanding of the 

6 history of racism and oppression that has led to 

7 today's landscape, who has access to land, 

8 resources, USDA programs and organic 

9 certification.

10 This training would allow NOSB members 

11 to build a critical lens when advising the NOP. 

12 These trainings would also help NOSB members 

13 build a culture of support and inclusion on the 

14 NOSB. NOC recommends that the NOP resource the 

15 NOSB appropriately for the training, and that 

16 this be an intentional, deliberate process rather 

17 than just checking the box for equity training.

18 Second, including racial equity as a 

19 work agenda item on the CACS Committee. We 

20 understand the cumbersome effort of establishing 

21 a fully independent subcommittee within the NOSB. 

22 We recommend that racial equity be included as a 
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1 work agenda item in the CACS Committee. We also 

2 want to clarify that NOC recognizes other systems 

3 of oppression are very much at work in our 

4 communities, including discrimination based on 

5 gender and sexual orientation.

6 As a coalition, we have deliberately 

7 focused our work on racial equity for now, 

8 because of the demonstrated need for the organic 

9 community to acknowledge the history of 

10 oppression and discrimination in the institutions 

11 we work closely with. This does not mean other 

12 systems are oppression are less important, and we 

13 look forward to focusing on additional equity 

14 issues in the future.

15 On participation in the NOSB process, 

16 NOC recognizes that the Board has put effort into 

17 whether meeting dates could be changed to 

18 facilitate farmer participation, and that it 

19 would be very difficult to do so. If the meeting 

20 timing cannot be changed, we need to continue to 

21 brainstorm ideas to involve farmers that have 

22 difficulties making comments during their busiest 
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1 times.

2 At a minimum, we ask that some form of 

3 communication be set up whereby questions to the 

4 Board, the questions the Board is deliberating on 

5 could be publicized in between meetings. Farmer 

6 work groups could chew on those questions and 

7 give feedback, even if they are not able to do so 

8 during the formal NOSB meeting schedule. This 

9 issue could be put on the PDS agenda.

10 And finally on publications of notes 

11 and technical reports. The NOSB and stakeholders 

12 need to think creatively as to how to 

13 transparently share information with all, so that 

14 stakeholders can give their best input to the 

15 NOSB. 

16 Likewise, technical reports that the 

17 Board references in documents should be available 

18 to the public when those documents are 

19 published. We ask that if technical reports are 

20 not yet publicly published by the time an NOSB 

21 proposal is released, that the agenda item should 

22 be carried over to the next meeting. Thank you 
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1 very much for your time and for listening to our 

2 comments. I look forward to seeing you next 

3 week.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate --

5 thank you so much. Allison has a question for 

6 you.

7 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you Alice. I 

8 am excited and interested in the proposal to 

9 provide equity training for the Board, and I also 

10 recognize that it's kind of an amorphous or new 

11 idea for folks who haven't gone through something 

12 like that. I wonder if you could, oops sorry --

13 if you could sort of give an example or speak to 

14 some of the takeaways that NOC has valued from 

15 that type of training, to sort of illustrate for 

16 us and the public what the value of equity 

17 training might be, and what it could look like.

18 MS. RUNDE: Yeah. Thanks for that 

19 question Allison, and I'd love to give a more 

20 formal answer to the Board. The one thing that 

21 comes to mind is that we have hosted a couple of 

22 trainings that were funded by the Human Capital 
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1 project that was funded by the NOP, really 

2 focusing on the history of racism in U.S. 

3 agriculture and focusing on organic.

4 That was a training that was very well 

5 received, and it was followed up with some in6 depth training for certifiers and inspectors, to 

7 kind of have some self-reflection on how that 

8 history impacted some of the work that they were 

9 doing. So that's something that comes to mind.

10 I know that the NOP is supporting some 

11 of these trainings through Human Capital Projects 

12 and through TOP and moving forward, and so the 

13 Board's sharing some of those training 

14 opportunities and some other reflection questions 

15 and things that we took away from those trainings 

16 with the Board.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

18 from the Board?

19 (Pause.)

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have a quick 

21 question for you Alice. When you speak about 

22 equity and talk about in-person public comments, 
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1 I am still having a hard time reconciling how a 

2 $2,000 expense does not elevate certain farmer 

3 voices over others. 

4 Isn't that an evolution in the right 

5 direction to hear all participants' public 

6 comments, in the same forum with the same access, 

7 which is something you can call in from a 

8 tractor? How do we move towards change and 

9 recognizing that maybe it's good change?

10 MS. RUNDE: I'm sorry, I had trouble 

11 unmuting. That's a really great question, and I 

12 think something that I would like to go back to 

13 our coalition with. But I think something that 

14 we've talked about in the coalition is having two 

15 modes of having public comments, one being these 

16 virtual opportunities that allow more equitable 

17 participation and less -- allow people who don't 

18 have the opportunity to fund their travel all the 

19 way to the NOSB meetings to be able to provide 

20 comments, without taking away the opportunity for 

21 these personal connections to happen in 

22 relationship, in the same physical space.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely, but if 

2 I may push a little further, it seems like those 

3 who show up in person with the $2,000 plane 

4 ticket, they're still going to have an advantage, 

5 even if it was equitable access. 

6 So giving folks with resources the 

7 chance to have more direct access seems to be in 

8 conflict with equity. Am I missing something 

9 here?

10 MS. RUNDE: I don't think you are, but 

11 I will go back to the coalition and maybe ask 

12 Steve Ela and Abby Youngblood, who are commenting 

13 next, to respond to that question.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I really 

15 appreciate it. Thank you for your comments 

16 today. Next up we have Oren Holle, followed by 

17 John Foster and then Jane Sooby. Oren, please go 

18 ahead, and you are muted Oren. Let's get you 

19 unmuted.

20 MR. HOLLE: There we go. All right. 

21 I'm Oren Holle. I am commenting today on behalf 

22 of the Organic Farmer's Agency for Relationship 
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1 Marketing, more commonly known as OFARM. I 

2 operate a small certified organic farm in 

3 northeast Kansas, and I serve as president of 

4 OFARM, and I offer comments today on behalf of 

5 field crop producing membership.

6 The majority of our membership 

7 consists of smaller operations, which fall in the 

8 category of what is being referred to as 

9 underserved. Our primary emphasis is cooperative 

10 marketing for our membership. We are pleased to 

11 have been accepted as a partner and were recently 

12 awarded a climate-smart ag and forestry grant, 

13 and will also be partnering with the Transition 

14 to Organic Partnership Program in two regions.

15 These will give us an opportunity to 

16 showcase the benefits of the climate-smart 

17 practices of organic farming, and provide an 

18 opportunity to educate and assist transitioning 

19 producers and serve them in the marketing arena 

20 as well. It's ironic to us that after more than 

21 two decades of the National Organic Program being 

22 an arm of the USDA, that we still need to defend 
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1 our climate-smart status.

2 Surely all the production elements of 

3 the Organic Foods Production Act should make that 

4 issue clear. As we did in our written comments, 

5 we want to commend the NOSB on the well-drafted 

6 document defending organic as climate-smart. 

7 It's our hope that this proposal will heighten 

8 the recognition within the USDA.

9 Another issue that has become apparent 

10 in this, the same companies that dominate the 

11 non-organic food market continue their inroads 

12 into the organic market. Market fairness will 

13 likely become a more prominent issue, and the 

14 NOSB might do well to place firmly on the radar 

15 screen.

16 We appreciate the climate-induced 

17 farming risk and crop insurance discussion 

18 document. While many elements still beg further 

19 consideration, this serves as a platform to 

20 consider further discussion and action to revise 

21 for maximum benefit for organic producers. We 

22 see that some of our producers recognize the risk 
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1 mitigation IMA can provide, and they're using it 

2 effectively for their own operations.

3 We also see the attention that the 

4 CACS Compliance Subcommittee is providing 

5 regarding oversight improvements to deter fraud, 

6 the consistent location identification discussion 

7 document. With the standard of organic 

8 enforcement now having become reality, this 

9 certainly provides many opportunities to provide 

10 much greater involvement.

11 While this document doesn't exactly 

12 reference the issue of import certificates, it 

13 still appears that there remains a shortfall in 

14 requirements to assure that pending import 

15 shipments are identified as organic prior to 

16 arrival. This is a concern as our producers are 

17 constantly affected by oftentimes huge shipments 

18 of organic feedstuffs.

19 We believe the NOSB Compliance 

20 Subcommittee might do well to engage in the 

21 application of the many SOE elements. The 

22 testing of incoming shipment protocols begs 
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1 particular attention. As we consider the many 

2 research priorities that are being championed by 

3 various organizations representing diverse 

4 community. Time's up.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If you'd like to 

6 finish, go ahead.

7 MR. HOLLE: Just a final comment. 

8 It's our understanding that the NOSB is obligated 

9 to evaluate issues based on an interpretation of 

10 the Organic Foods Production Act. It appears 

11 that there may be a need to apply some -- apply 

12 that principle to some more fundamental 

13 procedures. Thank you for the opportunity to 

14 comment today.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you very 

16 much for your comprehensive comments. Amy has a 

17 question for you.

18 MR. HOLLE: Yep.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Oren, thanks for time. 

20 Thanks for your written comments as well and 

21 your involvement in the organic grain sector. I 

22 really appreciate that being a grain farmer 
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1 myself. I saw in your written comments you 

2 requested that NOSB work on a resolution to 

3 tighten timing requirements for the import 

4 certificates, and that's a part of the SOE.

5 I was just curious on timing 

6 frequency, what you potentially had in mind for a 

7 better solution there.

8 MR. HOLLE: Well, there was indication 

9 when Mr. Glasgow met with us at our annual 

10 meeting this last February, that there are still 

11 opportunities where the import certificates and 

12 the timing of those filing would allow shipments 

13 to actually be unloaded and then enter the 

14 commerce stream before that import certificate is 

15 fully represented.

16 There again, when I'm reading through 

17 the details of the SOE, I see that that's still a 

18 gray area at this point. And so I think that's 

19 one of those things that really needs attention. 

20 It doesn't make any sense to me when this stuff 

21 is coming from halfway around the world, that we 

22 can't see an import certificate and know that 
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1 it's coming before it ever arrives, so that the, 

2 you know, the necessary scrutiny can be put into 

3 place.

4 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you. I 

5 appreciate that comment.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

7 much for your comments, Oren. We appreciate 

8 them. Next up we have John Foster, followed by 

9 Jane Sooby and then Margaret Scoles.

10 MS. ARSENAULT: Wait just one second 

11 while I'm getting John's slides up.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

13 MS. ARSENAULT: There will be a little 

14 delay. Thanks.

15 (Pause.)

16 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

17 went off the record at 3:34 p.m. and resumed at 

18 3:36 p.m.)

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh John, you are 

20 muted.

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Now we're muted. It 

22 may be --
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1 MR. FOSTER: How about now?

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Still have an 

3 echo. Try it out real quick.

4 MR. FOSTER: How about now?

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Good.

6 MR. FOSTER: All right, thank you. I 

7 appreciate the opportunity to speak with you all. 

8 I look forward to meeting you next week in 

9 Atlanta. Thanks to the Board members, and 

10 especially welcome to two new Board members. 

11 It's going to be fun ride. Thanks to the 

12 program. Without all of us and all of you 

13 especially, none of this works. So thank you for 

14 that.

15 We also provided some comments for 

16 review. My name is John Foster. I'm with Wolf 

17 and Associates. We're a very persistent 

18 consulting firm that specializes in all things 

19 organic. So with that, let's go to the first 

20 slide. So a big priority for us is supporting 

21 more organic acreage, getting more organic 

22 ingredients in circulation and getting all the 
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1 organic goodness to as many as possible.

2 So these three bullet points that I'll 

3 talk briefly to in a minute are really 

4 intentioned, the intention is to bring those 

5 priorities forward. 

6 So next slide, please. On the 

7 National List, this is more of an ask or a 

8 reminder, that when I was on the Board years ago, 

9 I was really useful for you to remember that our 

10 criterion of essentiality was intended to be 

11 contextual, not universal, right. And so 

12 material on the National List exists in a vacuum. 

13 It's always in the context of the practice 

14 standard.

15 And moreover, any material used that's 

16 on the National List, it's the certifier's job to 

17 make sure that that material is used in the right 

18 context relative to the OSP. 

19 So as you're reviewing materials to 

20 stay on the List or new materials, I would just 

21 ask that the need by a few for a material ought 

22 to be enough if the material meets the remaining 
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1 criteria. It shouldn't have to be needed by 

2 everyone or a whole lot of people, because the 

3 need of the few is just as important to those few 

4 as the needs of the many.

5 Next slide, please. This idea of a 

6 registry or compendium of commercially available 

7 materials is something I talked about last year, 

8 and I've kind of refined the idea. But my hope 

9 is that a registry that includes all the 

10 allowances certifiers have allowed under the 

11 commercial availability provisions, whether it's 

12 an ingredient or seeds or others, would be 

13 compiled in one spot. 

14 And I don't see another way to allow a 

15 consistent application for ACAs of the commercial 

16 availability clauses without a single source of 

17 truth about knowing what's out there. Right now, 

18 my observation is that there's a lot of 

19 inconsistency in how those clauses are applied, 

20 and I think a single registry which seems a bit 

21 fantastic I know at the moment, but a single 

22 registry would do the trick.
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1 Organic seed use would be a great 

2 place to start. It's a place where the current 

3 system really hasn't done justice to increasing 

4 significantly organic seed use. So I think of 

5 this as a regulatory matter, not a -- not a nice 

6 to have. 

7 Next slide, please. So it sounds kind 

8 of radical at first, but the idea of commercial 

9 availability, of being applied broadly to 605 is 

10 really just a half step from the familiar. We 

11 have mechanisms in place to, what, to use this 

12 and it would create an incentive for development 

13 of new organic ingredients to replace non-organic 

14 ingredients.

15 And a good example of that just came 

16 up recently in comments on citric acid. I can 

17 talk about that more as an example of why organic 

18 citric acid should be used instead of non19 organic, but there's no incentive to do that. 

20 I'll leave it there. Thank you for your time.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

22 comments. Any questions for John from the Board? 
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1 Let me see. Okay. Sorry folks. Kyla, you have

2 a question.

3 MEMBER SMITH: Okay, hi. Hi John. 

4 Thanks for comments. My question is really to 

5 the 606 like registry, and who or -- and you also 

6 mentioned seeds in there. So commercial products 

7 that require commercial availability. Who do you 

8 envision is the overseer of said database, 

9 because there are -- I believe there is a 

10 database for feeds. I don't -- again, like 

11 they're -- I think that that's used, but anyway, 

12 how do we ensure that people are really using it?

13 And then there was, I believe at some

14 point in time, a 606 database as well, and that 

15 sort of whittled, fizzled out I guess is what I 

16 want to say. So who best to be the keeper of 

17 said registry?

18 MR. FOSTER: Yeah. So I've thought a 

19 lot about this, and although I know there's 

20 resistance to it for very good reason, but I 

21 don't see a better place than the NOP using a 

22 similar backbone as the Organic Integrity 
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1 database, in large part because I've kind of 

2 thought through how it would need to be -- it 

3 would need to be a neutral party, right, for two

4 reasons.

5 One, it would need to be something 

6 organized at that level because everyone's 

7 service agreement with certifiers, the certifiers 

8 are saying we're not going to reveal XYZ 

9 information unless we're under a court order to 

10 do so, right? That wouldn't be the case here. 

11 That's in part why I see this as a compliance 

12 issue. 

13 So I see the shorter answer would be 

14 as an extension of the -- of OIP, it would have 

15 to be, because there's no private entity that 

16 will get sufficient information from all 

17 participants. That's the shortest possible 

18 answer for me. 

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood, please go 

20 ahead.

21 MEMBER TURNER: Hey John, thanks for 

22 your comments. Just a quick question about your 
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1 points about essentiality. Is that, is there 

2 anything specific that you're referring to there? 

3 I mean is there a perception that you have that 

4 certain, you know, there have been some reviews 

5 and materials where there have been a, there's 

6 been a different, a different approach to 

7 essentiality taken by the Board than what you 

8 described.

9 I feel like I've, we've had a lot of 

10 conversations about it, but I feel like we're, 

11 you know, in violent agreement even on some 

12 level. So I just wanted to -- I wanted to make 

13 sure we sure we're not missing something.

14 MR. FOSTER: That's a good one, and a 

15 fair clarification. What I hear often, I have 

16 heard and this goes back -- I mean I started 

17 paying attention to NOSB comments, I don't know, 

18 mid-2000's and definitely when I was on the Board 

19 starting in 2010 and since, is a lot of comment 

20 kind of it presupposes that a certain number of 

21 people or a certain percentage of operators need 

22 a material in order to justify its use.
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1 And that's -- my observation since 

2 certainly the last decade or so are that the 

3 underlying assumption is that many people should 

4 need it, and for more specifics, comments often 

5 come up like my grandfather or my grandmother 

6 raised chickens and didn't need, fill in the 

7 blank, right?

8 And the sometimes spoken, sometimes 

9 unspoken implication of that is that no one 

10 should need to fill in the blank, because my 

11 experience is this. I think that that experience 

12 was true for those people in that time. I'm not 

13 questioning that. I'm just -- I would like to 

14 get away from the idea that what's good for me or 

15 what's useful for me or essential for me is the 

16 same thing for everybody else.

17 Laddered up even moreso was the 

18 magnitude when we're talking about application of 

19 NOP standard globally, when one thing on the list 

20 that's available to me in California isn't 

21 available in Mexico or Chile or Australia. So 

22 the idea that any one thing, one solution to one 
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1 production problem is enough on the List 

2 presupposes that one thing is available to 

3 everyone who wants it.

4 And I hear a lot of public comment 

5 that uses that operating assumption, and that 

6 worries me because, because mostly I don't want 

7 the National List to be a tool for exclusivity. 

8 That's my main thing. And that's why I get kind 

9 of emotional about it, because I think the 

10 National List should be an inclusive list. It 

11 should drive inclusivity and availability, not as 

12 a -- not as a tool, particularly out of context, 

13 to keep people out.

14 Yeah, I'll leave it there, sorry. I 

15 could go on and I won't. Sorry.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy has a question 

17 for you John.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, thanks Nate. Hi 

19 John, thanks for your comments today. I have a 

20 question. It falls in line of what you're 

21 speaking about, the commercial availability. In 

22 your written comments, you mention there's ten 
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1 other items that have a potential to be produced 

2 organically, and you don't have to share them 

3 now.

4 But I was hoping maybe you could share 

5 them with Michelle, so we could have access to 

6 that information. You mentioned flavors and 

7 yeast, but then say there's ten other ones that 

8 are on the radar. So that information will be 

9 super-helpful.

10 MR. FOSTER: I will do that. I'll 

11 generate a list and send it to Michelle. The 

12 exempt, you know, collagen gel is the other one 

13 that's called out, and oddly enough dioxide 

14 indirectly. That's an odd one, because you 

15 generally don't think of mineral. But there's 

16 the rice hull demand there. 

17 But since it came up just recently in 

18 the back and forth here, citric acid. For 

19 example, there is certified organic citric acid 

20 on the market today. Very hard to find, even by 

21 very motivated people and it's very expensive 

22 because it's only made to order. And it's only 
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1 made to order because there's no market 

2 incentive. There's no -- sorry, there's no 

3 regulatory incentive to drive people there, 

4 right.

5 Like 606, you have to look for 

6 something and show it. Not true. So my, yeah. 

7 That would be one example, and I'll include 

8 citric acid on that longer list. 

9 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you so much, 

10 John.

11 MR. FOSTER: You're very welcome.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim, please go 

13 ahead.

14 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi John. I keep

15 raising and lowering my hand, thinking well maybe 

16 this was already partially answered, but maybe 

17 not. But do you see any parallels with 

18 essentiality and commercial availability from the 

19 perspective that commercial availability should 

20 then negate essentiality of a product that, you 

21 know, someone might say is essential in non22 organic form because of where they live versus 
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1 having commercial availability to the masses in 

2 organic form.

3 Maybe more food for thought, but I was 

4 just trying to -- I was just trying to drive a 

5 parallel between those two, and I don't know if 

6 it's there.

7 MR. FOSTER: Yeah. So can I -- I have 

8 a short response to that, is I don't think it's a 

9 parallel but an interdependency. There's 

10 definitely an interrelatedness there where -- and 

11 it is, it can be local. It could be state, it 

12 could be regional because if an item is on, is 

13 available in one part of the country or a country 

14 and not somewhere else, then the context of 

15 commercial availability changes. The 

16 availability changes as a function of location, 

17 say. 

18 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yeah.

19 MR. FOSTER: And so there is an 

20 interrelationship for sure.

21 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Well, I appreciate 

22 your perspective very much so, and I do like the 
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1 idea of a database for multiple things. But I do 

2 think that having some sort of a resource for, if 

3 nothing else, for people to use almost as 

4 advertising, of "we have this in organic form." 

5 It has a nice appeal to it. So I appreciate your 

6 comments.

7 MR. FOSTER: You're welcome.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate Lewis, please 

9 go ahead.

10 MEMBER LEWIS: I couldn't resist 

11 extending story time with Uncle John here. So 

12 John, the thing I wanted to just -- you touch on 

13 something that I think is really important about 

14 organic seeds, and the commercial availability 

15 aspect of that. There's a lot of barriers and 

16 challenges, I realize, to getting organic seed 

17 more widely adopted.

18 I think the sort of mixed vegetable 

19 side of things has done a pretty decent job 

20 pulling it into farmer's markets where primarily 

21 they're using organic seeds, or at least have 

22 access to them. But I, you know, like out here 
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1 processing vegetables, you know, they're 

2 proprietary of one hybrid. So you're talking 

3 three years of planning and all this stuff.

4 It's a -- it's a seemingly 

5 insurmountable barrier. But I was wondering if 

6 you had thoughts on sort of how the current 

7 iterations of the regulations guidance, just kind 

8 of how certifiers deal with that issue may be 

9 contributing to the problem, as opposed to 

10 pushing farmers or pulling farmers in the 

11 direction of utilizing more organic seeds.

12 MR. FOSTER: Yes.

13 MEMBER LEWIS: And sort of 

14 incentivizing that market.

15 MR. FOSTER: Yes, thank you. I would 

16 first kind of let everyone remember last year, a 

17 year ago at the last previous spring meeting, 

18 Kiki Hubbard provided a State of Organic Seed, 

19 right, for 2022. There was a lot of good 

20 information there and as I recall, unanimous 

21 engagement from the Board about that content.

22 So I would put people back. That's 
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1 where data would come from to support this. But 

2 the concern I have is that now we're 20 plus 

3 years into the regulation, and there are tons of 

4 organic seed that aren't used because the 

5 current system doesn't, doesn't provide that in a 

6 single place, right.

7 The information about what organic 

8 seed, two things. One is available, but more 

9 importantly what is needed, because if I were a 

10 seed breeder and I could go to my CFO and say 

11 look, here is a need for 400,000 pounds of 

12 organic Conquistador celery seed, right? Here's 

13 the market, and if we have it, we can charge 

14 whatever we want for it. Here's the regulation 

15 that mandates that.

16 But if I'm, if I'm just out in the 

17 field and I don't have that data, I'm not going 

18 to be able to convince someone to go to produce 

19 that. So that's one value of the list. The way, 

20 the way the current system hasn't worked is that 

21 -- careful I frame on this. 

22 So if someone waits long enough to 
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1 order that seed, to order organic seed, there's a 

2 relatively high assurance that that person who 

3 knows the distribution chain well, because 

4 they've been ordering seed for a long time, knows 

5 the right time to make that request, right?

6 And then you get your letter from the 

7 distributor and everyone's happy. But that's an 

8 intent -- in my opinion, that's an intentional 

9 avoidance at best, but it's something -- things 

10 like that are quite common I hate to say it. But 

11 another is, as you mentioned, it takes a long 

12 time to breed organic seed that's appropriate for 

13 processing specs.

14 MEMBER LEWIS: Agreed.

15 MR. FOSTER: I know from experience 

16 when I was at Earthbound Farm, we had a seed 

17 company come to us and say if you give us this 

18 contract for organic seed, I'll use spinach as an 

19 example, we'll supply X number of tons of organic 

20 spinach seed. We guarantee the same performance 

21 characteristics, but we need that contract first. 

22 We can't grow that much seed without the 
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1 contract.

2 And that, it really disallowed that 

3 system. Really there was no way to promise that. 

4 No one wanted to promise first basically. And 

5 so I feel like, and I think that's fair, that 

6 makes sense. If I were the seed company, I 

7 wouldn't want to invest those millions of dollars 

8 either without a guaranteed sale.

9 So what this list I think would do is 

10 it's the combination of commercial availability 

11 and a registry for this. It's give that data so 

12 everyone knows how much of this seed is needed, 

13 and everyone knows -- then the certifier would go 

14 to that list. If I were a grower of celery and I 

15 didn't order one of these tons of organic 

16 Conquistador celery, there better be a really 

17 good reason I didn't get that.

18 And it's got to be a much higher, I 

19 think a much more demonstrable standard, not 

20 higher, but more demonstrable than is the current 

21 case now. I don't see, given the failure of past 

22 seed registries and there have been three 
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1 attempts that I know of, and not one has 

2 survived. I think that's because it has not been 

3 a non-regulatory environment. 

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. I hate 

5 to be the one to break story time with Uncle 

6 John. 

7 (Simultaneous speaking.)

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We do really 

9 appreciate this. This is an exciting high level 

10 discussion for how we can think about, maybe not 

11 as a standards solution to this, but something 

12 even bigger than that. So thank you for bringing 

13 this, John.

14 MR. FOSTER: You're welcome.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we've got 

16 Jane Sooby, followed by Margaret Scoles and then 

17 Bill Wolf and Jo Ann Baumgartner before we jump 

18 to the next break. So Jane, the floor is yours.

19 MS. SCOLES: Thank you Nathaniel and 

20 good afternoon everybody. I'm Jane Sooby with 

21 CCOF. I want to thank National Organic Standard 

22 Board members and NOP staff for your hard work to 
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1 maintain organic integrity and for this 

2 opportunity to comment.

3 Today, I will focus on the importance 

4 of organic research and the research priorities 

5 put forth by the Materials Subcommittee. First, 

6 I'd like to thank the Subcommittee for compiling 

7 and sharing organic research priorities. 

8 Publicly funded agricultural research is 

9 something that conventional producers can take of 

10 granted, while historically the percentage of 

11 USDA research dollars invested into organic 

12 research has been lower than the percentage of 

13 organic market share.

14 But over the years, we have 

15 accumulated a strong body of basic organic 

16 research, and this is why we can state with 

17 confidence that organic agriculture is playing a 

18 key role in mitigating climate change and should 

19 be acknowledged for it. 

20 Organic farming builds healthy soils 

21 that store carbon, does not rely on fossil fuel22 derived fertilizers and pesticides, and this 
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1 reduces its energy use and greenhouse gas 

2 emissions. 

3 Because research clarifies the 

4 benefits of organics and provides the basis for 

5 extension and outreach, advising growers on how 

6 to optimize crop and livestock production, CCOF 

7 joins with other partner organizations to 

8 advocate for increased organic research funding 

9 in the upcoming Farm Bill. The Subcommittee's 

10 list of research priorities is a valuable 

11 resource in guiding scientists toward doing work 

12 that will address organic producers' needs.

13 This year, as we all know, 

14 policymakers and legislators are working on a new 

15 Farm Bill. Some of you may be surprised to learn 

16 that the research title of the Farm Bill is where 

17 organic has made the most strides in terms of 

18 funding. The 2018 Farm Bill included the first19 ever baseline funding for an organic program, and 

20 that was for the Organic Agriculture Research and 

21 Extension Initiative, an organic research and 

22 extension funding program.
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1 Baseline funding is mandatory and it's 

2 not subject to annual appropriations. In 

3 addition, programs with baseline funding are 

4 automatically carried over into the next Farm 

5 Bill. So it will be important to protect this 

6 gain. 

7 The Subcommittee prioritized numerous 

8 important research areas, all of them which are 

9 needed. We'd like to add a couple of different 

10 priority research areas, including investigating 

11 organic pastured poultry production, expanding 

12 sources of domestic livestock and poultry feed, 

13 optimizing cell nutrient cycling and recycling. 

14 As noted by the committee, studying 

15 the nutritional composition of organic compared 

16 with conventional foods and publicizing those 

17 results to increase consumer confidence that 

18 they're purchasing high quality and nutrient 

19 dense products.

20 We also need economic analyses of the 

21 projected effect on organic prices by widespread 

22 entry of new farmers into organic through USDA's 
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1 Organic Transition Initiative, and we'd like to 

2 see documentation of the contribution to state 

3 and national economies by the organic sector. 

4 The organic supply chain contributes a lot.

5 I encourage organic stakeholders to 

6 use the Materials Subcommittee's research 

7 priorities discussion document and other 

8 resources to advocate for organic research in the 

9 Farm Bill. Thank you.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

11 comments. Questions for Jane from the Board? 

12 Franklin has a question for you.

13 MS. SOOBY: Hi.

14 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes. I am 

15 particularly interested in this as a researcher 

16 myself. The grant-based research is a problem. 

17 You start the research, you wait, that grant 

18 expires and then you're waiting for the next 

19 source of funds to do the research. So I want 

20 you to go into it a little bit more about the 

21 need for more funding, not just more funding for 

22 research but also I'm talking about these breaks 
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1 in between funding cycles.

2 Where do these researchers find money 

3 to keep research going during these breaks? And 

4 one of the things is that, you know, organic 

5 agriculture are our province. We don't have all 

6 these quick fixes. 

7 So we need the data long before the 

8 problem arises. So I want you to go into it a 

9 little bit more, not just the quantum of funds 

10 available, but you know, that kind of continuity 

11 for researchers to keep doing what it is that 

12 they're doing.

13 MS. SOOBY: Yes, thank you. Thank you 

14 for raising that concern, Dr. Quarcoo. I hope 

15 I'm pronouncing that correctly. That has been a 

16 long-standing challenge, and kind of a 

17 dismantling of the soft funding for research, 

18 specifically for agricultural research in the 

19 land grant system. 

20 That was occurring decades ago, and 

21 I'd love for more advocacy work to be aimed at 

22 that, and to -- for there to be more 
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1 institutionalized research funding and capability 

2 through land grant system.

3 Unfortunately, they made a decision a 

4 long time ago to move towards this competitive 

5 model, and one of the solutions is to advocate 

6 for longer-term research funding, say at a 

7 minimum three years, three to five years. But as 

8 you know, it's really unusual for grants to offer 

9 that long-term funding.

10 But really at a minimum, it should be 

11 at least for three years, in order to have 

12 sufficient data to conduct your analysis to be 

13 able to publish those results. 

14 I don't know what else to say, except 

15 that agricultural research has been 

16 institutionalized, specifically organic research 

17 has been institutionalized in some states that 

18 have set up research stations that are dedicated 

19 to organic research, and that may be one approach 

20 to working on that problem.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Other 

22 questions for Jane? 
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1 Thank you, Jane. We appreciate your 

2 comments. 

3 MS. SOOBY: Thank you.

4 MEMBER QUARCOO: Excuse me. I have 

5 one comment before she gets off, if you don't 

6 mind. 

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, please go 

8 ahead.

9 MEMBER QUARCOO: Okay. So I had an 

10 economic impact of new farmers into the 

11 transitioning. Can you elaborate on that a 

12 little bit? What kind of economic impact that we 

13 -- is there a fear by the existing group of 

14 farmers that that will negatively impact them or 

15 what is, what are we looking at with that 

16 economic impact analysis?

17 MS. SOOBY: So you know, I wouldn't 

18 know the details of that economic analysis. I'm 

19 not an economist. However, USDA has made the 

20 remarkable step of acknowledging that it's really 

21 important to have more organic in the country, 

22 and they've established a $300 million Organic 
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1 Transition Initiative.

2 Actually, CCOF is playing a role here 

3 in the Southwest region on this effort. I've 

4 also heard from some of our producers, and most 

5 of our research priorities come directly from our 

6 producers expressing their needs to us, that they 

7 have concern that especially at periods of time 

8 when prices can be kind of low and some producers 

9 are having to sell their products into the 

10 conventional market or at conventional prices, 

11 that bringing in a lot of new organic producers 

12 may lower prices even further, or lead to 

13 increased competition.

14 So I'm talking about this as a way. 

15 You know, we really need to look at our market 

16 development side of that equation, and also know, 

17 understanding clearly what we're getting into, 

18 bringing these new farmers in. Of course we, 

19 CCOF completely supports the Organic Transition 

20 Initiative, and the transition of every new acre 

21 -- sorry, under organic certification.

22 But we think we should, you know, have 
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1 our eyes wide open as we enter that phase.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, great 

3 question Franklin. Thank you, Jane. We 

4 appreciate your comments. Next up we have 

5 Margaret Scoles, followed by Bill Wolf and Jo Ann 

6 Baumgartner and then Dana Perls, and then we're 

7 going to take a break. So Margaret, please go 

8 ahead.

9 MS. SCOLES: I'm Margaret Scoles, 

10 International Organic Inspectors Association. 

11 Hello to the members of the NOSB, NOP, friends 

12 and colleagues. IOIA is the leading worldwide 

13 training and networking organization for organic 

14 inspectors. We represent about 200 inspectors in 

15 more than a dozen countries, plus many supporting 

16 members.

17 We have already submitted written 

18 comments on the CACS discussion document, 

19 oversight improvements to deter fraud, consistent 

20 location identification. I will speak to two 

21 others things.

22 First, IOIA is heartened to see how 
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1 much has happened within our community since the 

2 NOSB prioritized human capital and the NOP 

3 followed with the funding initiative, and it 

4 isn't all NOP funding or initiatives. The entire 

5 community has really stepped up to address the 

6 human capital problem.

7 IOIA's current human capital priority 

8 is developing and supporting apprenticeship for 

9 organic professionals. About two years ago, 

10 Organic Valley agreed in principle to help us 

11 launch an industry-supported apprenticeship 

12 program for inspectors. You probably heard that 

13 announcement at an NOSB meeting. Livestock had 

14 been identified as a key area where 

15 apprenticeship was especially needed.

16 I'm proud to say that with a Farmers 

17 Advocating for Organic grant, IOIA and FAPPA will 

18 be co-sponsoring a livestock apprenticeship 

19 intensive the last week of July in Wisconsin, the 

20 first of what we hope will be many. 

21 I also serve on the board of IFOAM 

22 North America. The reason our president, 
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1 Jennifer Taylor is not commenting this round is 

2 because she's so busy organizing workshops on 

3 BIPOC farms in Virginia this coming weekend with 

4 IFOAM North American Projects, funded by Southern 

5 SARE and OFRF. We see so much positive 

6 collaboration happening.

7 Second, IOIA is pleased to have 

8 developed a policy comment process and decision 

9 tree for choosing how and when we comment to 

10 public requests for comment. We prioritize those 

11 issues of direct concern or impact for 

12 inspectors. We have a highly engaged and 

13 knowledgeable group of inspectors on our Policy 

14 Comment Committee. If necessary, we survey our 

15 members when consensus cannot be achieved among 

16 our committee.

17 The committee's draft policy is sent 

18 to our board of directors for review. In 2022, 

19 we added a Policy Comment Committee facilitator 

20 to assist their work. We feel we are well 

21 organized to provide meaningful input to the NOSB 

22 process. However, when we are given less than 
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1 one month to prepare comments, it's quite 

2 challenging.

3 There was no time to conduct a survey 

4 and the board received the committee comments for 

5 review about two days before the submission 

6 deadline, very little time for meaningful 

7 discussion. We ask that you set a goal to 

8 provide the NOSB meeting documents farther in 

9 advance if possible. Thank you.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

11 comments. Questions for Margaret from the Board?

12 I have a quick question for you, 

13 Margaret. Were you able to read or are you part 

14 of that drafting process of IOIA comments, or is 

15 that just the Policy Committee?

16 MS. SCOLES: I read it three times 

17 today, but I did read it. 

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

19 MS. SCOLES: I did read it and I 

20 realized my signature's on the bottom. But yes, 

21 I read it. 

22 (Simultaneous speaking.)
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One question I do 

2 want to pose to you is we are -- in the CACS, we 

3 have a geolocating question that would across the 

4 industry, there's the (a), concern that 

5 certifiers don't necessarily know where all the 

6 fields they certify are actually located or have 

7 a consistent way to find them. There's been a 

8 lot of concern about tech and different 

9 communities having different tech allowances.

10 But as an inspector with a Smartphone, 

11 do you think it's fairly reasonable to say that 

12 the tech won't be that big of a deal if we're 

13 able to get the same GPS locations that we would 

14 be going to if we visit every field with a 

15 Smartphone in hand, and most if not all 

16 inspectors have a Smartphone?

17 MS. SCOLES: The simple answer is yes, 

18 I agree with you. Of course, our comments do 

19 point out that there are some challenges and but 

20 we recognize that there's great inconsistency 

21 between the location information that different 

22 certifiers maintain and provide to inspectors. 
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1 But we have six pages of comments that basically 

2 yes, we think that's probably the best.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Perfect, I 

4 appreciate that, and thank you for your comments. 

5 Any other questions from the Board? 

6 All right. Thank you, Margaret.

7 MS. SCOLES: Thank you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

9 up, we'll have Bill Wolf, followed by Joan 

10 Baumgartner, then Dana Perls, and then we'll 

11 break. 

12 (Pause.)

13 MR. WOLF: Can you hear me?

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please go 

15 ahead.

16 MR. WOLF: Awesome. I'm Bill Wolf, 

17 with Second Star Farm and Wolf and Associates. 

18 The topics you tackle are more complex and 

19 diverse than any other federal advisory 

20 committee, and I thank each of you for this 

21 amazing work. I especially welcome two brave new 

22 members, Nate and Franklin.
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1 I've been farming, launching organic 

2 enterprises and helping organic growers and 

3 projects for 15 years. I served as OMRI's 

4 founding president and as president of OTA. My 

5 consulting firm has 27 subject experts helping to 

6 implement SOE, fraud prevention, stronger OSPs 

7 and more. 

8 Slide 2, please. I want to address --

9 I ask that you read our written comments, with 

10 special attention to essentiality criteria, which 

11 John discussed. We ask that you measure 

12 essentiality wisely and broadly in voting on 

13 National List materials. Also, a shout out for 

14 good work on the ion exchange resins.

15 Now, I'd like to share some ideas for 

16 increasing organic acreage and organic 

17 marketplace in the U.S. 

18 Slide 3, please. Organic has grown 

19 exponentially, but U.S. organic acreage has not 

20 kept up with demand and imports have filled the 

21 gaps. These are some thoughts on how the NOSB 

22 can help increase organic acreage. Publish, get 
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1 the organic pet standards published, which will 

2 utilize organic byproducts, increase economics of 

3 organic crop production.

4 Speak out about the importance of more 

5 emphasis on organics in the Farm Bill. Ask 

6 Secretary Vilsack for five percent, not .03 

7 percent, of all research and education dollars. 

8 Recommend an organic marketing order, and not on 

9 this slide, but consider establishing the in10 transition labeling again. 

11 Slide 4. Consider how you as a board 

12 can make messaging about organic stronger. We 

13 need to own the markets we've created by 

14 screaming out that organic is already non-GMO, 

15 regenerative and sustainable. The community 

16 needs to unite about trusting organic as the only 

17 inspected food system in the world from seed to 

18 table.

19 Slide 5 please. Earthworms are our de 

20 facto mascot of organic agriculture. They thank 

21 you for your time and consideration. 

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we thank you 
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1 for your time, Bill. 

2 MR. WOLF: Thanks, Nate. 

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions from the 

4 Board?

5 I have a quick question for you, Bill. 

6 In looking at your last slide, your first and 

7 last slide for screaming out our message, how 

8 would we both think critically about continuous 

9 improvement, while not throwing the baby out with 

10 the bath water?

11 When we think about the entire 

12 industry and all that we have to offer as a 

13 solution to climate change, as a solution for 

14 rural, rural depopulation and a solution to 

15 producing really good clean, healthy food.

16 How do we have these smart discussions 

17 internally, but not have that become the 

18 publicly-facing story of organics, that we're not 

19 good enough? How do we scream that we are the 

20 best, while also engaging continuous improvement?

21 MR. WOLF: Well, I actually think that 

22 recommending getting an organic marketing order 
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1 back on the table and making that an initiative 

2 of the organic community as a unified effort, and 

3 understanding that the processing industry would 

4 handle a bulk of the cost of it, and not opposing 

5 it in a fractured way the way it happened last 

6 time.

7 We came very close to having a 

8 marketing order, and that gave us -- that would 

9 have given a baseline for communicating the 

10 unified message about the benefits of organic and 

11 shouting it out consistently. So I really, I 

12 really think that's -- that is something that the 

13 Board could create a task force to look into, you 

14 know, or take, figure out a way for that to be an 

15 agenda item to start pursuing.

16 I think that all of the points I was 

17 trying to make are things that the Board can take 

18 an initiative on. I don't know how much there's 

19 been discussion during Board meetings or 

20 Subcommittee meetings about the Farm Bill. But 

21 we're in the midst of the Farm Bill debate, and 

22 Organic Policy Week is coming up in three weeks 
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1 in D.C.

2 There will be over 200 visits to the 

3 Hill to talk, and a lot of that talk will be 

4 about the Farm Bill. The Board has a huge 

5 ability and power to talk to the -- directly to 

6 the Secretary about not just giving organic sort 

7 of a passing look, but about all the things we've 

8 been talking about, the fact that it is a

9 powerhouse for climate change. 

10 I mean the research that's been done 

11 about humic acids and the humic compounds that 

12 are on organic farms that aren't found on non13 organic farms is not being publicized. It isn't 

14 being talked about, about the fact that organic 

15 farming methods can collect more carbon, 

16 dramatically more carbon by its very nature of 

17 the structural dynamic of how we farm. 

18 So there are many things the Board can 

19 be doing. I realize you have a huge agenda. 

20 Just take dealing with managing the National List 

21 and all the debates about it. In fact, the 

22 reason we talk internally quite a bit about 
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1 public comments and written comments and oral 

2 comments for this upcoming meeting, in fact in 

3 our quarterly all-in advisors group, we said well 

4 what are the two big issues that --

5 Because this Board meeting this time 

6 next week is not having huge voting issues. 

7 You're not voting on 100 materials questions. 

8 You're considering them well in advance, which is 

9 awesome. It's really good that they're on the 

10 table to discuss and you have time for them. But 

11 we decided wow, let's start talking about the, 

12 some of --

13 This gives us an opportunity to 

14 comment about some of the bigger strategic 

15 issues. How do we get more acreage and can the 

16 Board somehow allocate some time to that. Does 

17 that at least --

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I so appreciate 

19 all of that, and I want to especially highlight 

20 thank you for the very succinct bullet points to 

21 get across for what we could be doing at a high 

22 level. So I really thank you for your
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1 presentation and your comments just now.

2 MR. WOLF: Thank you, I appreciate it. 

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn has a 

4 question for you.

5 MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes. So Bill, I 

6 wonder how you see balancing like risk mitigation 

7 and ensuring the viability of existing organic 

8 farms with bringing new farms on board? 

9 MR. WOLF: When you say -- are you 

10 saying that you're concerned that bringing more 

11 acreage on board might adversely affect the 

12 current farms?

13 MEMBER DIMITRI: Well, okay. Well 

14 maybe, but I also see that we have a lot of 

15 existing organic farms that really could use the 

16 benefit of like stronger engagement in farm 

17 programs, if that's what they want, or stabilized 

18 markets or like better ensuring the economic 

19 viability of the existing farms. 

20 Like, so like how do you think about 

21 stabilizing those farms and improving the 

22 economic position of the existing organic farm 
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1 sector, while at the same time talking about 

2 expanding acreage?

3 MR. WOLF: Good question. That's a 

4 long conversation. I think, I think there are a 

5 lot of things to protect the current organic 

6 farmers that isn't being done as well as it 

7 could. One of the presenters earlier today was 

8 talking about the challenges of the crop 

9 insurance program, and that the OSP should be an 

10 automatic go-to to qualify for crop insurance.

11 There are numerous places where the 

12 current farmers should get a free pass, and we 

13 haven't really understood some of those. One of 

14 them is the marketing of the chain of custody of 

15 local and U.S. food into processed foods, and 

16 encouraging more local -- well, domestic 

17 purchasing that is starting to happen in the way 

18 USDA is starting to fund transition money and 

19 education money.

20 When I look at the research, the 

21 research funding for organic, it is so tiny it's 

22 embarrassing, at university level and at the USDA 
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1 level. If we're, you know, between five and 

2 seven percent of the food dollar, why isn't the 

3 USDA putting money into where the growth is? 

4 That's what any good business decision says. We 

5 started trying to say that to USDA 15 years ago, 

6 and we've begun to get a little bit of funding.

7 That kind of initiative will help the 

8 current farmers. I also think an organic 

9 marketing order would help the organic current 

10 farmers because they'd have a seat at the table 

11 and how that marketing money would be spent.

12 MEMBER DIMITRI: Nate, can I just make 

13 one more comment or question? So like what I've 

14 learned through some of my research with organic 

15 farmers is they don't feel that USDA really hears 

16 them or understands them or is there for them. 

17 So like I mean so then if -- like so 

18 how does that fit into this? These are the 

19 things that I think about in my spare time. It's 

20 very hard to like untangle, so you have more USDA 

21 money coming to help transition people into like 

22 a sector where they don't feel that USDA 
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1 supports them.

2 So like will this make things worse, 

3 or how -- like how would you have this change 

4 coming from like maybe the small to mid-scale 

5 organic farmer to like instead of being like 

6 we're not part of like regular agriculture. 

7 You're sort of asking them to like jump on board 

8 with marketing orders and farm programs and 

9 stuff.

10 MR. WOLF: Sure. Well, you've sort of 

11 touched on one of my pet peeves about the Organic 

12 Foods Production Act. The small farmers who go 

13 to the farmer's markets, who aren't certified 

14 should have been given the opportunity to 

15 continue to use the term "organic," the exemption 

16 shouldn't have been at $5,000. It should have 

17 been if you are truly direct selling person to 

18 person to the farm.

19 And that was one of the proposals in 

20 front of the Senate Ag Committee in 1990. It 

21 failed. I think reopening OFPA to make that 

22 change would reopen the door to the small farmers 
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1 respecting organic again. I'm just throwing an 

2 idea out there, if we're going to reopen OFPA to 

3 some things that will broaden the understanding 

4 of the benefits of organic.

5 MEMBER DIMITRI: Okay, great. Thanks. 

6 I do see we could talk about this forever. Nate 

7 probably won't let us. Thank you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And you can talk 

9 about it next week. So this is, I think, a great 

10 example of how a comment made, follow-up in 

11 person. So thank you so much for your time, 

12 Bill. We really appreciate it.

13 MR. WOLF: Thank you all. Take care.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

15 Jillian Baumgartner, followed by Dana Perls, and 

16 then we'll break. After our break, we'll have 

17 Jane Stevens, Malaika Elias and then David Meyer. 

18 So Jo Ann, please go ahead.

19 MS. BAUMGARTNER: Thank you, yes, and 

20 thank you to the NOSB for your hard work. I'm Jo 

21 Ann Baumgartner, Executive Director of Wild Farm 

22 Alliance. We have been advocating for the NOP to 
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1 implement the NOSB's native ecosystem protection 

2 since 2018, when the recommendation was made.

3 I want to dispel any misconceptions 

4 that we are a consumer organization that does not 

5 work with many farmers with the same concerns. 

6 Our main constituents are farmers. Our recent 

7 hedgerow video we made had over 10,000 views. We 

8 work to help farmers support and benefit from 

9 wild nature. Our mission states that we promote 

10 a healthy, viable agriculture. 

11 I bring this up because organic 

12 growers need native ecosystems for their farms to 

13 function well. Many farmers we work with 

14 recognize that they shouldn't cut off their nose 

15 to spite their face. Destroying existing native 

16 habitat and ecosystems nationally and 

17 internationally to quickly produce certified 

18 organic crops threatens the integrity of organic 

19 farming practices, weakens the environment that 

20 farmers rely on for pollinators and natural 

21 enemies, and removes valuable habitat from many 

22 kinds of wildlife.
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1 There are 4,000 native bee species in 

2 the U.S., and while some can be supported by 

3 organic farms, we need to conserve a diversity of 

4 native ecosystems to provide habitat for the 

5 overwhelming majority of them. The same is true 

6 for beneficial insects and birds. 

7 Ladybug beetles will overwinter in 

8 native deer grass and other native plants, and 

9 conserving native ecosystems means that farmers 

10 can count on these beneficials to be around when 

11 they need them.

12 A pair of barn owls and four young 

13 will eat up to 3,400 rodents in a year, but they 

14 only spend a third of their time on the farm, and 

15 require grasslands, woodlands and riparian areas 

16 all made of ecosystems for the rest of their 

17 sustenance. Native species have nowhere to go 

18 when the habitat is destroyed. Niches are almost 

19 always filled, meaning that there is no room if 

20 they try to make a living elsewhere.

21 They inevitably compete with residents 

22 and the strongest wins out, but the world loses 
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1 as our biodiversity dwindles. Most organic 

2 farmers that had to transition their land for 

3 three years do not think it's fair for others to 

4 be certified quickly after destroying a native 

5 ecosystem. The transitional farmers had to 

6 forfeit organic premiums while they increased the 

7 environmental quality of their land.

8 Meanwhile, the farmers destroying 

9 ecosystems make more money while they 

10 significantly decrease the environmental value. 

11 The NOP needs to eliminate the incentive to 

12 destroy native ecosystems, making a more level 

13 playing field for farmers and conserving the 

14 biodiversity necessary for pollinator and natural 

15 enemy health on functioning organic farms. Thank 

16 you.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

18 Jane? I apologize, Jo Ann. I made that too 

19 long. 

20 All right. We appreciate your 

21 comments today. Thank you. Is Dana Perls still 

22 on?
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1 MS. PERLS: I am, thanks so much.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Please 

3 go ahead and then we'll break.

4 MS. PERLS: Thank you. I know I'm 

5 blocking your break. My name is Dana Perls. I'm 

6 the food and technology manager with Friends of 

7 the Earth. Thank you for the opportunity to 

8 provide some comments. I'm going to speak about 

9 the Materials Subcommittee's excluded methods 

10 list. 

11 Friends of the Earth really 

12 appreciates the NOSB's careful examination of 

13 emerging technologies, particularly those derived 

14 from genetic engineering and we are concerned 

15 with one thing in particular, which is the 

16 induced mutagenesis and ask the NOP to include 

17 this in the list of excluded methods.

18 We appreciate the NOSB has named that 

19 if the mutagen is developed using in vitro 

20 nucleic acid techniques, it would constitute an 

21 excluded method. However, we're a bit concerned 

22 about what happens if that mutagen is UV light or 
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1 synthetic chemicals, irradiation or environmental 

2 stressors like heat, cold, increased salinity. 

3 We believe that if the mutagen is a chemical or 

4 irradiation, such changes in mutagens may not 

5 respect the genome as indivisible, and therefore 

6 should be considered an excluded method. 

7 Additionally, the chemical mutagens 

8 would be considered synthetic chemicals. But 

9 there may be types of mutagens that would not be 

10 considered, such as if the mutagen is an 

11 environmental stressor, and environmental 

12 stressors, as I said, might be cold or heat or 

13 salinity and are naturally occurring, and these 

14 should be an allowed method.

15 The use of UV light is a form of 

16 environmental stressor, so it should be 

17 considered an allowed method. But if the induced 

18 mutagenesis involves a chemical or irradiation 

19 that would impact in vitro nucleic acids, it 

20 should be an excluded method. I hope that's 

21 clear. There's kind of some that would be left 

22 out and some that wouldn't.
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1 So we encourage the NOSB to clarify 

2 the kinds of induced mutations that would 

3 constitute an excluded method versus those that 

4 would be allowed. So that's it. Thank you for 

5 your consideration of these comments.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

7 your comments. Questions for Dana? Mindee, 

8 please go ahead.

9 MEMBER JEFFERY: Dana, thank you so 

10 much for your relentless pursuit of how the 

11 biotech industry has entered the food system. I 

12 definitely would be undereducated without all the 

13 work you guys do. 

14 MS. PERLS: Thank you.

15 MEMBER JEFFERY: Yeah. So again, 

16 looking at the horizon, I worry about developing 

17 technologies entering the food system and how do 

18 we trace them, and I think we all lived in the 

19 pain of what some of those first versions of 

20 genetic modifications did to organic systems and 

21 how hard we had to work to figure them out and 

22 clean them up.
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1 It was a backtrack process, and I'd 

2 love it if we could avoid that. And so if you 

3 have the ability to help us position emerging 

4 technologies like sprays and insects, and how far 

5 away from the organic system those are, that 

6 would be immensely helpful to our future work.

7 MS. PERLS: Yeah, thank you. It is 

8 one of my really significant concerns about how 

9 new and emerging genetic engineered products that 

10 are designed to spread or that will spread 

11 through the environment will impact organic, like 

12 RMAI sprays that are being proposed as pesticides 

13 and that can drift and directly alter people's 

14 crops and then become property of that 

15 agribusiness company or farm, and genetically 

16 engineered soil, microbes that could spread 

17 through the soil.

18 So these are all things that 

19 I think are really essential, and the NOSB and 

20 the NOP really grapple with, either testing or 

21 research. How are we going to know if organic 

22 has been contaminated and what kind of change of 
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1 regulations do we need to make sure that doesn't 

2 happen?

3 So really I would be honored to work 

4 with you on thinking through what that means, and 

5 how we might address it.

6 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thanks. Do you mind 

7 a follow-up question? 

8 MS. PERLS: Of course, go for it.

9 MEMBER JEFFERY: Yeah. So if we're --

10 where to track, how and who is that FDA, APHIS? 

11 Do you have a quick list for us?

12 MS. PERLS: Yeah. It's going to --

13 for the RMAI pesticides, that's going to be the 

14 EPA currently, and for the soil microbes, that's 

15 going to be the EPA. I think that there's -- it 

16 depends on what the use is, and so it may be the 

17 EPA, it may be the USDA. There's questions 

18 around genetically engineered animals, which 

19 would be the FDA.

20 So it's going to depend a little bit 

21 whether that's going to fall under the EPA or 

22 USDA, and in some cases it may be the FDA. So 
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1 we're trying to figure that out. There's a lot 

2 of comments to all those agencies about the 

3 confusion in which agency each thing, you know, 

4 goes into. 

5 So I can sort of lay out what are the 

6 things on the horizon, and what agency we think 

7 that those will be going into, but it's very 

8 confusing. 

9 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you so much. 

10 I'm sorry. If you don't mind indulging one more. 

11 Do you think that the -- we sort of a few months 

12 ago, like maybe in last September there was that 

13 presidential order for the harmonization of 

14 biotechnology. I'm wondering if there's any 

15 silver lining for us, that maybe we'll achieve 

16 some interagency transparency and participation 

17 and talking across those systems, to help us gain 

18 access as these technologies are entering?

19 MS. PERLS: That's a tough one. 

20 Unfortunately, some of the heads of the agencies, 

21 including the USDA, are really pushing for 

22 decreased transparency and deregulation, which I 
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1 think is a real serious threat. I think that 

2 there are opportunities that we're trying to push 

3 for for consistency across agencies for 

4 definitions.

5 So for example, the NOSB uses a 

6 definition of genetic engineering that's 

7 internationally aligned with modern biotechnology 

8 and codex. And currently the FDA is close to 

9 that definition, but EPA and particularly the 

10 USDA is actually pretty far from that. 

11 So one of the things that is possible, 

12 though it's not mandated in any sort of way by 

13 the executive order, but one thing that we can at 

14 least try to do is get the other agencies to move 

15 towards a definition like that, that the NOSB 

16 uses. 

17 The deregulation is going to be a big 

18 challenge, particularly because it means that 

19 things like RMAI spray or the soil microbes and 

20 new genetically engineered plants that have 

21 higher risk of contamination might not be 

22 regulated or even registered as fly in under 
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1 grass.

2 I'll try and think of some silver 

3 lining and we'll send it to you. I know that 

4 there's something there, and I'm going to find it 

5 so that we can have a positive note to really 

6 look at.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

8 ahead.

9 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks so much. 

10 Quick question about mutagenesis, induced 

11 mutagenesis and UV radiation. What about sort of 

12 like really high levels of UV radiation that 

13 would be way beyond what we've given the 

14 sunlight, that will induce a lot of, you know, 

15 random mutations throughout the genome, which is 

16 kind of what they're shooting for there. But is 

17 that, is that something that we would not 

18 consider excluded?

19 MS. PERLS: You know, there is a 

20 concern about what happens with those higher 

21 levels of UV light, particularly I think the 

22 thing that we're looking at is whether or not 
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1 this would alter the, alter the genome. 

2 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah.

3 MS. PERLS: Would it -- and in that 

4 case, and particularly if it isn't a natural 

5 level of UV light, I think that is something a 

6 little bit tricky that we should address. I'd 

7 love to give you a little bit more information. 

8 I may need to follow up, because it gets into 

9 some pretty nitty-gritty details. 

10 But I think in general, what you're 

11 getting to is that need to really make clear 

12 distinctions about what would be allowed and what 

13 wouldn't be allowed, and that level of detail is 

14 going to be pretty important. So if it's 

15 possible to follow up with you about what that 

16 level of distinction might be, then I would be 

17 honored to work again with you on this as well.

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: That would be great, 

19 and I think if you could send a note to Michelle 

20 about that, that would be great, and then maybe 

21 she would forward it to everybody. 

22 And speaking of following up, if you 
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1 all would have some really great ideas on how to 

2 address these, some of these, you know, new 

3 decisions on excluded methods that are going to 

4 be coming up in all the germ plasm that's 

5 already out there, that would be great. 

6 But we don't have time for that now, 

7 but I would love to hear a lot of comments on 

8 that too. So thank you very much.

9 MS. PERLS: Okay. Yeah, thank you so 

10 much. I will make a list of all the follow-ups. 

11 Appreciate that. 

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Al right. Thank 

13 you so much, Dana and thanks for sticking with 

14 us.

15 MS. PERLS: Thank you.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: As we go into our 

17 break, we are going to have Jane Stevens, Malaika 

18 Elias and David Meyer after the break. I just 

19 want to take a moment to remind folks that 

20 excluded methods as a category are prohibited in 

21 the regulations now. So it's saying here these 

22 very, very in the weeds conversations, but I want 
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1 to take a little bit of a reminder that we 

2 already have a blanket prohibition in the 

3 regulations now. 

4 So off to our break. We'll see you in 

5 ten minutes.

6 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

7 went off the record at 4:36 p.m. and resumed at 

8 4:46 p.m.)

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. It 

10 looks like we're missing Jane Stevens, so we're 

11 going to get started off with Malaika Elias, 

12 followed by David Meyer and then Dave Chapman. 

13 Malaika, if you're there, the floor is yours.

14 MS. ELIAS: Yes. Can you hear me 

15 okay?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Please go 

17 ahead.

18 MS. ELIAS: Great. Hi everyone. My 

19 name is Malaika Elias. I'm a food and tech 

20 campaigner with Friends of the Earth. Thank you 

21 for this opportunity to provide comments to the 

22 NOSB. I will comment on two different issues. 
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1 First, organic as climate-smart agriculture, and 

2 second, chemicals in food and packaging and 

3 production.

4 So Friends of the Earth commends the 

5 NOSB recommendations to promote and fund organic 

6 agriculture as the leading ecological approach to 

7 agriculture appropriate for meeting climate 

8 change problems. As the Biden administration 

9 allocates funding for what they call climate10 smart ag, it's imperative that the USDA advocate 

11 for organic agriculture as a climate solution.

12 The science is clear, as folks have 

13 mentioned earlier in the call, that organic 

14 farming systems can help mitigate climate change. 

15 Many of the practices that have been found to 

16 foster soil carbons, sequestrations such as crop 

17 rotation, cover cropping and composting are 

18 central to organic ag. Research has found that 

19 organic soils sequester more carbon on average 

20 than conventional soils.

21 Organic farming also helps mitigate 

22 the effects on climate change on farmers, since 
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1 healthy soils conserve water and significantly 

2 increase farmer's resilience in the face of 

3 climate-related droughts and floods. Organic 

4 agriculture reduces energy use and greenhouse gas 

5 emissions by eliminating synthetic fertilizers 

6 and the vast majority pesticides.

7 Pesticides and synthetic fertilizers, 

8 like other synthetic chemicals, come from oil and 

9 fossil gas and play a role in driving the climate 

10 crisis, and studies show that organic systems 

11 require 15 percent less energy than conventional 

12 systems, with some organic systems using as much 

13 as 70 percent less energy than their conventional 

14 counterparts.

15 Additionally, it's imperative that 

16 USDA recognize organic pasture-based and mixed 

17 crop livestock systems as climate solutions. 

18 Industrial meat and dairy production are major 

19 culprits in the climate crisis as well, as 

20 livestock production accounts for roughly 15 

21 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions.

22 Conversely, well-managed, pasture-
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1 based systems can help sequester carbon. So it's 

2 more important than ever that the NOSB recommends 

3 that the USDA unequivocally promote and push for 

4 increased funding of organic agriculture as a 

5 climate solution. 

6 And on a different note, Friends of 

7 the Earth appreciates the NOSB's ongoing 

8 discussion about chemicals used in food packaging 

9 and processing. As Friends of the Earth has 

10 identified in previous comments, BPA and PFASs 

11 are toxic chemicals and should be prohibited from 

12 organic operations and the resulting food 

13 products.

14 BPA and PFASs are found in the organic 

15 food supply through packaging and production as 

16 many of you all know, and PFAS has been shown to 

17 cause endocrine disruption and immune 

18 dysfunction, and BPA has been associated with 

19 reproductive and endocrine-related health 

20 effects. 

21 We appreciate the NOSB recommendation 

22 to the NOC that this is a research priority, and 
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1 we continue to urge deeper research into plastic 

2 alternatives.

3 More broadly, it's important that the 

4 NOSB recommend that the NOC respond to PFAS 

5 concerns. Thank you for your consideration of 

6 these comments.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

8 making them. Questions for Malaika? Please go 

9 ahead, Wood.

10 MEMBER TURNER: Thanks, Malaika, great 

11 comments. I just wanted to ask you restate the 

12 point. I was interested that you mentioned the 

13 energy intensity of -- sorry, the energy 

14 intensity of conventional farms versus organic 

15 farms I believe in your remarks, and I was just 

16 curious. 

17 Can you say that again, and do you 

18 have anything -- what is it attributable to? I 

19 just want to make sure I understand that. I had 

20 never heard that, that statistic before, and I 

21 want to lean into it a little bit.

22 MS. ELIAS: Yeah. I'm, so I am more 
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1 than happy to maybe go back to my notes and 

2 documents and folks on my team that actually work 

3 on this issue, to get a better clarification. I 

4 want to be as thorough as possible for you, and 

5 this is not like my topic of expertise or 

6 something that I work on directly.

7 MEMBER TURNER: Great. Well, I'd love 

8 to have that data point, and just -- not just --

9 MS. ELIAS: If you can follow up via 

10 chat now, I can ask folks or I can follow up via 

11 email. I think my colleague Dana who spoke a 

12 couple of minutes ago said she'd send some things 

13 via email. So I'm happy to send clarification.

14 MEMBER TURNER: And it's not just the 

15 number but what it's attributable to. If you can 

16 go deeper on that, that would be great. Thank 

17 you.

18 MS. ELIAS: Absolutely, thank you. 

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Right. Other 

20 questions from the Board?

21 All right. We really appreciate your 

22 time. Thank you. Next up we have David Meyer, 
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1 followed by Dave Chapman and then Sal Pinkham. 

2 David, the floor is yours. Oh, we've got some 

3 slides. All right.

4 MR. MEYER: Excellent. I've got a 

5 couple of slides here. First of all, I want to 

6 thank the Board and everyone this afternoon for 

7 your time. I really appreciate this opportunity 

8 to speak to you and offer some comments. 

9 We have submitted written comments as 

10 well, and I am here on behalf of CP Kelco, which 

11 is the company that I work for. We are 

12 manufacturers of hydrocolloids, and xanthan and 

13 high acyl gellan gum. Both fit as 

14 hydrocolloids. 

15 So next slide, please. To me, this is 

16 a lot of fun, but I love to talk to students and 

17 talk about what hydrocolloids do and what they 

18 are. So xanthan gum is produced by fermentation, 

19 and I like to tell people it's kind of like, you 

20 know, if you've ever seen vats of brewed beer, 

21 that's what we do.

22 We brew this hydrocolloid xanthan gum, 
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1 and it is currently allowed under 205.605(b), 

2 synthetics allowed, and it does some great things 

3 for product developers who are working to make 

4 organic foods. It provides thickening when 

5 needed; it provides suspension. It provides 

6 cling. It's cold solubles. You don't have to 

7 heat something up.

8 So if you're putting a beverage 

9 together, it's really useful for that. Or if you 

10 were putting, you know, a dry mix beverage 

11 together, that works really well too. Excellent 

12 syneresis control. 

13 People, a lot of people don't know 

14 what syneresis is, so I like to explain it. 

15 That's like if you've ever opened a yogurt, a 

16 personal yogurt container and you see all the 

17 whey, the whey off on top, that's syneresis. The 

18 whey proteins squeeze out the extra liquid, and 

19 xanthan gum can help with that.

20 It provides emulsion and air 

21 stabilization. It works on a really wide range 

22 of pH temperature, enzyme stable and it provides 
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1 really high viscosity at really low 

2 concentration. Usually the use level is less 

3 than half a percent, and it's not chemically 

4 modified. 

5 Next slide, please. So where is it 

6 used? All sorts of products, dressings, sauces, 

7 syrups, baked goods, bakery fillings, beverages, 

8 dairy, confectionary, batters and breadings, low 

9 fat spreads. You've seen it all over, and then 

10 it also can be used in consumer products as well. 

11 But some of my favorites are on there, gummy 

12 bears, the fruit preps for yogurt. 

13 So that's xanthan gum. If you go 

14 ahead, we'll talk about gellan gum as well. It's 

15 also by fermentation. It fits under 205.605(a), 

16 non-synthetics allowed, and the difference here 

17 is that gellan gum is really, really good at 

18 suspension. So we use it in a lot of beverages. 

19 It's used both in dairy and non-dairy milks, and 

20 it will suspend things that normally won't 

21 suspend, like vitamins, minerals, cocoa.

22 A lot of people don't know that cocoa 
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1 doesn't suspend and melt by itself. If you mix 

2 it up, it will fall to the bottom. 

3 Go ahead, next slide and I'll 

4 finish up and just talk about where we use high 

5 acyl gellan gum. These dairy beverages, the 

6 plant beverages, yogurt, dressing, sauces, and 

7 then there's some personal care products also 

8 that use it. Once again, thank you so much for 

9 your time. We appreciate the opportunity to 

10 comment, and please refer to our written comments 

11 for anything further.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate the 

13 comments. Thank you so much. Questions from the 

14 Board?

15 All right. Thank you, David.

16 MR. MEYER: Thank you.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

18 David Chapman, followed by Sol Pinkham and then 

19 Edward Maltby. Dave Chapman, the floor is yours. 

20 There we go, all right.

21 MR. CHAPMAN: I'm working on it. 

22 Thank you, Nate. Okay. Hello. I am Dave 
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1 Chapman. I'm a farmer and co-director of the 

2 Real Organic Project. Real Organic was created 

3 as a response to the failures of the National 

4 Organic Program. As most of you know, we are an 

5 add-on label to the USDA organic program. We 

6 certify over 1,000 U.S. farms, and we have a 

7 joint venture with the German-based certifier 

8 Naturland. 

9 Naturland, which is also an add-on,

10 certifies over 140,000 farms around the world. 

11 Our standards are simple, affirming what has been 

12 laid out in the Organic Food Production Act. I'm 

13 here today to call on the NOSB to push for the 

14 end of hydroponics being certified as organic, in 

15 keeping with the 2010 recommendation. 

16 This is not a settled issue. We hope 

17 that the USDA will join the world organic 

18 movement in rejecting hydroponic. In the last 

19 year, the USDA has given billions of dollars to 

20 support so-called climate-smart agriculture. 

21 Only a tiny amount of that money went to organic 

22 production. All the rest went to what is now 
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1 being called regenerative agriculture.

2 Regenerative is rapidly coming to be 

3 defined by the largest food and ag companies on 

4 the planet. It is the same companies that have 

5 caused so much of the environmental and climate 

6 destruction, and they are the same companies that 

7 organic is meant to be an alternative to. 

8 They are now insisting that our 

9 movement is not regenerative, because NOP's 

10 organic certification is no longer based on soil 

11 health or pasture-raised livestock, and they are 

12 right. You can be running a certified organic 

13 hydro operation with no regard to the complex 

14 interactions between plants and living soil.

15 Such hydro producers are no longer 

16 small outliers. Such companies are now the 

17 biggest players in certified organic berries and 

18 tomatoes. Peppers and greens are coming fast. 

19 Three years ago the director of marketing for a 

20 very large conventional hydro tomato company, 

21 which has a small organic spinoff, stood in front 

22 of you in the Pittsburgh meeting and mocked my 
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1 earlier comments on the magic of soil and the 

2 soul of organic, calling them "bits of marketing 

3 fluff." 

4 Soil is a bit of marketing fluff? 

5 Really? Where is our outrage. The NOP has a 

6 wound that won't heal. The hydroponic issue is 

7 not going away. A large majority of American 

8 organic farmers do not believe hydroponics should 

9 be certified as organic. But public trust in 

10 organic will go away if we don't fix this. It 

11 was laboriously built up over many years. Please 

12 don't let that happen.

13 Let us acknowledge that a mistake has 

14 been made. The organic brand is too precious to 

15 squander. Our movement is too important. Please 

16 dig in and fight for what is right. Thank you.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

18 comments. Questions from the Board for Dave? I 

19 have a -- please go ahead, Brian.

20 (Simultaneous speaking.)

21 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay, here we go. 

22 All right. Thanks, Dave. I'm feeling like you 
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1 guys might be a source of some of this 

2 information, but if you have any scientific 

3 studies that are like life cycle studies of 

4 energy use or carbon impacts from conventional 

5 versus hydroponic operations or even, you know, 

6 hydroponic versus organic, which is I think 

7 there's much less likelihood that there will be 

8 research on that.

9 But anyways, if you have any of that, 

10 if you could forward them to us, it would be 

11 great to look at that. 

12 MR. CHAPMAN: Yeah, great Brian. I've 

13 seen such a study from Cornell about vertical, 

14 vertical farming, the vertical grains, and it 

15 wasn't good for vertical grains in comparison. 

16 There must be stuff about hydroponic production, 

17 but I have not seen that study. If I find it, I 

18 will send it to you.

19 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay, sounds good. 

20 Thank you very much.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have a quick 

22 question for you Dave, and then we'll go to Jerry 
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1 and Nate. I think there's another commenter 

2 today who made the same statement you just made, 

3 that basically the conventional regenerative 

4 folks are coming for organic, because we have 

5 hydroponics.

6 I'm trying to figure out, I've never 

7 heard that. I've only ever heard that our 

8 tillage is the reason that they're saying that, 

9 and I think hydroponics would be the opposite of 

10 tilling. So I feel like if anything, it would be 

11 an asset to their perception of what regenerative 

12 is. Do you, I mean who's saying this, the 

13 "they"? Who is the they? 

14 MR. CHAPMAN: Well, the nastiest big 

15 voice I know of is Syngenta, in terms of 

16 attacking organic while defending regenerative 

17 and they've been very upfront about it. 

18 (Simultaneous speaking.)

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: --attacking it 

20 because of organic, because of hydroponic? I 

21 think that's --

22 MR. CHAPMAN: No, no, no. They're 
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1 attacking it because they believe that the world 

2 will starve if we go organic.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure, sure. So 

4 when you say that we're losing consumer and, you 

5 know, sort of the culture debate with 

6 regenerative, you said it's because of 

7 hydroponic. Who is saying that?

8 MR. CHAPMAN: I don't mean only 

9 because of hydroponic "they." But I believe that 

10 that is part of it because it's very hard if 

11 you're in a public discussion with such a group 

12 to say well organic is all about soil health, 

13 when it clearly isn't, not USDA's organic. It's 

14 just not. We've got a billion dollars by the 

15 claim of the hydroponic lobby of stuff being 

16 certified as organic that is hydroponic. There's 

17 no soil involved.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One follow-up to 

19 that, do you -- I address this to a few folks. 

20 Do you have any data on economic harm because of 

21 hydroponics? Is there anywhere we can go to say 

22 so, so many dollars left soil-based farms over to 
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1 hydroponics. You know, I think when we talk 

2 about dairy, which is a big crisis, when we talk 

3 about any farmers struggling in our space, we 

4 want to be very clear about what that source data 

5 is so we can hunt it up and understand it.

6 MR. CHAPMAN: Yeah.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Could you point to 

8 that data?

9 MR. CHAPMAN: I can tell you my 

10 thoughts about it Nate, which is the nature of 

11 this conversation and I have really been in it 

12 from the beginning, is that it's impossible to 

13 say what the impact is because the major 

14 hydroponic producers publicly insist that they're 

15 not hydroponic.

16 And you know that the biggest berry 

17 producer and the biggest tomato producer who are 

18 growing hydroponically say we are not growing 

19 hydroponically. We're growing in containers, and 

20 that immediately becomes a very complicated 

21 conversation for somebody who doesn't really know 

22 a lot about this subject.
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1 So I don't think any data at all, and 

2 I don't think there could be because where would 

3 you get the numbers? Who would you say well this 

4 is hydroponic?

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I would think that 

6 the farmers would be similar to the dairy space, 

7 self-reporting their loss of market share and 

8 folks like, you know, more regional organizations 

9 like say MOFGA or Montana Organic Association, 

10 anyone who's very close to the farmers would be 

11 able to have a beat on that. If you're able to 

12 get that for me, that would be great.

13 MR. CHAPMAN: I can give you that 

14 right -- I can give you one good one right now, 

15 which is that there's a growers coop in Vermont 

16 called Deep Root, and they reported to me that 

17 they lost a half million dollar tomato contract 

18 with Whole Foods. They were given about two 

19 weeks' notice, and they switched to Mexican 

20 hydroponic.

21 And this was back in the early days. 

22 This was about 2015 or 2016. But that was a 
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1 definite example of a significant shift in the 

2 marketplace. For Vermont, half a million dollars 

3 is a lot of dollars. 

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure, absolutely. 

5 Nate, please go ahead.

6 MEMBER LEWIS: Hey Dave, good to see 

7 you. Thanks for comments. It's good to go out 

8 and interact with the community again. Just 

9 wanted to -- I'm not sure if you were kind of 

10 following the certification, but my wife and I 

11 got real organic certified at our farm, and just 

12 wanted to throw that out there, acknowledging 

13 that it really does seemingly hinge on the 

14 traceability and transparency elements that NOP 

15 provides.

16 So anyway, I just wanted to share 

17 that. But you know, my question was about the 

18 crops you had identified, and I was -- you were 

19 going a little quickly and I was taking notes as 

20 primarily the hydroponic. Tomatoes and berries I 

21 know are the capstone, but then you had a couple 

22 of other ones that are not far behind I think is 
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1 what you said. If you could repeat those, that 

2 would be great.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: Sure. What I said is I 

4 think coming fast, coming soon.

5 MEMBER LEWIS: Oh coming fast, yeah, 

6 yeah.

7 MR. CHAPMAN: Yeah. It's growing 

8 rapidly, greens and peppers.

9 MEMBER LEWIS: Greens and peppers. 

10 Okay, thanks.

11 MR. CHAPMAN: I do know of several 

12 pretty large-scale hydroponic greens operations 

13 that are certified as organic, and these are, you 

14 know, the classic pond system where you float 

15 across and three or four weeks later you harvest 

16 from the other edge of the pond. And yeah, 

17 they're growing quickly and dramatically. I 

18 think that they're going to be a major market 

19 force soon.

20 And peppers, well from the beginning, 

21 we've been importing hydroponic peppers from 

22 Holland, but I'm seeing a lot coming in from 
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1 Mexico now too.

2 MEMBER LEWIS: Great.

3 MR. CHAPMAN: By the way, nice-looking 

4 -- are those blueberries behind you?

5 MEMBER LEWIS: Yeah. Well, this is 

6 eastern Washington, where yeah, I guess we grow 

7 over half the organic blueberries in the country 

8 and they're all soil grown.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: Yeah, yeah. They look 

10 great.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One final question 

12 for you Dave. Given the outcome of the lawsuit 

13 with USDA, essentially allowing certification of 

14 hydroponic operations to go forward, what 

15 constructively would you say NOSB can be doing to 

16 try to keep going forward with the system we 

17 have, and shaping the world we want to be in as 

18 best we can?

19 MR. CHAPMAN: Well, it would be very 

20 wonderful if you, if you pushed the NOP to act on 

21 the current recommendation, which is the 2010 

22 recommendation. And that grants that hydroponic 
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1 absolutely cannot be certified as organic. I 

2 think if you urge them to action on that one, 

3 that would be marvelous and, you know, very 

4 meaningful. 

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And possibly a 

6 discussion for later, but with the outcome of the 

7 lawsuit, we're looking at hydroponics will be 

8 certified, and that's from the very clear line, 

9 to work with the clay we're given, not to mix my 

10 metaphors. Is there a certain, a certain avenue 

11 when we think about writing standards for 

12 greenhouse and container production, or should we 

13 be looking at other questions?

14 I think your question about Mexican 

15 tomatoes coming in raises a big question about 

16 trade in general. Can we think bigger than just 

17 standards to protect markets, and is there some 

18 way that has a bigger lever than just eliminating 

19 hydroponics within our standards?

20 MR. CHAPMAN: Well, one point of 

21 clarification. The lawsuit, the outcome of the 

22 lawsuit did not rule that hydroponics are 
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1 qualified for certification. It ruled that the 

2 court would not challenge the USDA on this. They 

3 wouldn't challenge the USDA decision, not that 

4 hydroponics clearly met the rules of the Organic 

5 Food Production Act.

6 It was published in a way that they're 

7 making clear it was not a precedent. But if the 

8 USDA changed their mind, then the law would not 

9 disagree with that decision at all. In terms of 

10 trade, it will be interesting to see when the new 

11 trade deal is negotiated with the EU. There's 

12 been considerable energy saying that EU will not 

13 respect America's hydro allowance in a trade 

14 agreement. That will be a new ball game also. 

15 I don't know what will come of that, 

16 but of course Mexico is a big question, yeah.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin has a 

18 question for you.

19 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yeah, I'm curious. 

20 How do you compare hydroponics to conventional 

21 agriculture in terms of the impact that it has on 

22 the environment, energy, footprints and all of 
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1 that? 

2 A second part of that question is do 

3 you think that hydroponics is a viable option, 

4 just that you don't want it labeled as organic? 

5 Is it a food production practice that you think 

6 contributes significantly to agriculture, and 

7 when you compare that with conventional? 

8 Do you have issues just with the 

9 labeling as organic? Would you be okay with it 

10 as a method of producing food if it was not 

11 labeled organic?

12 MR. CHAPMAN: That's a lot of 

13 question. So I think that hydroponic that is 

14 unsprayed is really much better than hydroponic 

15 that is. 

16 I think that hydroponic is a very 

17 viable way of producing food. I would rather see 

18 organic production in the ground. I think that 

19 would be better for everybody, but hydroponics 

20 certainly works financially in this world, and it 

21 can be pretty reasonable about avoiding 

22 pesticides.
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1 So it's not that it 

2 necessarily involves a lot of pesticides. In 

3 terms of energy, it does not do well compared to 

4 field production. So if we're looking at carbon 

5 footprint, it's not a big winner. I'm not trying 

6 to shut down hydroponic. As I say, I think I 

7 said it.

8 But I will say some of my best friends 

9 are hydroponic producers, and some of them are 

10 very large-scale hydroponic producers. I have 

11 common friends with Jerry on your Board from his 

12 hydroponic past. We're not trying to get rid of 

13 hydroponics. That would be crazy. That's like 

14 trying to get rid of beer. It's not going 

15 anywhere. It's a major, major world food 

16 industry. 

17 But it should not be called organic, 

18 and only in America is it certified as organic. 

19 It's not allowed anywhere else, and I believe 

20 that it seriously undermines our ability to take 

21 America from one percent organic land to 30 

22 percent where it ought to be or 50 percent, 
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1 because it's pretty hard to build a movement 

2 that's standing on such a shaky foundation. 

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

4 questions for Dave? Jerry, please go ahead.

5 MR. CHAPMAN: Hi Jerry. You're muted, 

6 Jerry.

7 (Pause.)

8 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you for that 

9 and good afternoon to you. I've put my hand up 

10 and down at least ten times during your 

11 conversation here, and I took it down finally 

12 because I found that I really did not have a 

13 question. I had a strong, strong desire to 

14 debate and so that generates a question, which is 

15 will you be in Atlanta?

16 MR. CHAPMAN: I am not planning to be 

17 in Atlanta, although I would love to come and 

18 have a conversation with you. Your boss says hi, 

19 you know, we have friends.

20 MEMBER D'AMORE: Oh my God. That 

21 takes me back 40 years.

22 MR. CHAPMAN: I know.
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1 (Simultaneous speaking.)

2 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes sir. Okay, well 

3 I -- yeah. The only thing that prompted me to 

4 raise my hand the first time was the statement 

5 that you made, that you couldn't find a lot of 

6 information on hydroponic production. I was 

7 going to volunteer to help you out of that 

8 dilemma, but anyway.

9 MR. CHAPMAN: That's good, that's 

10 good. You know, there's so much information of 

11 course out there, you know, studying hydroponics 

12 has not been my, and the energy input and output, 

13 has not been my mission in life. But I agree 

14 with you, that there's a ton of research, has to 

15 be.

16 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah. Okay. Well 

17 again, if we were given another 30 seconds, it 

18 would take three hours. So I'll say thank you 

19 for your contribution. 

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

21 you Dave for your comments. 

22 MR. CHAPMAN: Thank you, Nate.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we're 

2 going to have a little quick switch. Next up is 

3 going to be Matt Begley, followed -- and then 

4 Edward Maltby and Sandra Remilien. So Matt, if 

5 you want to go.

6 MR. BEGLEY: Hi. Yes, thanks. My 

7 name is Matt Begley. I am a materials review 

8 specialist at OEFFA. I'd just like to address 

9 some of the concerns that we have regarding the 

10 phosphoric acid listing at 603(a) and sanitizers 

11 in general.

12 We would like to see a broad review of 

13 sanitizers. There is some inconsistency among 

14 certifiers as to when or whether to review 

15 inactive ingredients, when the active ingredients 

16 are on the National List. 

17 Some of these inactives are addressed 

18 in technical reports, but their inclusion in 

19 these products, which is needed to create 

20 effective products, can create difficulty for 

21 operations to find approved sanitizers. 

22 We have experienced that our farmers 
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1 do not always considered milk bulk tanks to be 

2 part of the milking equipment, and different 

3 sanitizers are used for bulk tanks and milking 

4 equipment and lines. This has led to bulk tanks 

5 often not getting rinsed, even when used with 

6 products that would require one under NOP 

7 regulations.

8 An industry sales rep informed us that 

9 chlorine materials are incompatible to bulk tank 

10 cooling plates over the long term, and parasitic 

11 acid can taint the flavor and smell of the milk. 

12 Farmers are in a bind because the effective 

13 sanitizers require rinsing under NOP rules that 

14 based on their labeling cannot be rinsed under 

15 PMO rules.

16 There are few options for farmers to 

17 remain in compliance with their state milk 

18 inspectors, as well as the NOP. Phosphoric acid 

19 is the preferred choice for sanitizing bulk tanks 

20 in many cases in rinsing, and is potentially 

21 counteractive to the sanitizing process and may 

22 be in direct violation of the product's labeling.
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1 We have two EPA-registered phosphoric 

2 acid sanitizers in use by our operations, at 

3 least two that clearly indicate to let air dry 

4 before use of equipment. They contain only 

5 phosphoric acid as the active ingredient and 

6 inactive ingredients which are not on the 

7 National List. Therefore, we would require these 

8 operations to rinse these products before contact 

9 with milk.

10 Phosphoric acid alone may satisfy NOP 

11 requirements for a sanitizer, but it may not 

12 properly sanitize the milking equipment without 

13 the presence of these inactive ingredients. We 

14 would like to see discussion around the use of 

15 phosphoric acid-based and other sanitizers that 

16 could be approved for use without a rinse based 

17 on current formulations to meet NOP and PMO 

18 compliance.

19 Most or all certifiers would allow 

20 milking powder wastewater to be applied to 

21 organic fields due to limited rural options for 

22 wastewater disposal, usually via manure lagoon or 
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1 septic tank and sometimes directly through 

2 irrigation. Does the annotation at 603(a)(25) 

3 allow rinsed phosphoric acid to be applied to 

4 land? 

5 One solution would be to clarify that 

6 products with phosphoric acid as the active 

7 ingredient are allowed without a rinse. Then it 

8 would not wind up in wastewater and no land 

9 contact would occur. We want to ensure that our 

10 daily operations are able to continue producing a 

11 safe, high quality product. 

12 We would appreciate further discussion 

13 on phosphoric acid and other sanitizers so they 

14 may be reviewed in light of industry practices 

15 and provide a path for dairy operations to meet 

16 their multiple compliance obligations. Thank 

17 you.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

19 comments. Questions for Matt from the Board? 

20 All right. Thank you, Matt. Next up 

21 we have Ed Maltby, followed by Mike Dill and then 

22 Jackie DeMinter. 
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1 MR. MALTBY: Hi, good afternoon. Not 

2 quite good evening, but you stayed the course 

3 well, and I'm glad that Dave doesn't want to get 

4 rid of beer. And I'd like to thank the Board for 

5 their patience today, and for the incredible work 

6 they do in ensuring the integrity of the organic 

7 seal.

8 The NOSB, as an independent body, is 

9 an important and invaluable part of the process 

10 that consumers and producers count on, to ensure 

11 that their voice is heard, that regulations are 

12 practical and workable on the farm, and that 

13 decisions made reflect the intent and law of the 

14 Organic Foods Production Act.

15 I agree with Dave and many, many

16 others, that organic certification is soil-based. 

17 I also think that NOSB members need greater 

18 support for their work. NOSB membership is time19 consuming and often requires -- reduces not 

20 unlimited resource members to hire labor to work 

21 their farms or other jobs during their service. 

22 The Board members work throughout the 
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1 year on committees plus research, and in order to 

2 guarantee that serving on the NOSB is not 

3 effectively restricted to those with full-time 

4 salaries, and recognizing the restrictions of 

5 FACA regulation, USDA needs to explore any 

6 opportunity that these expenses can be reimbursed 

7 or prepaid in some situations.

8 Looking back into organic integrity 

9 and the ability for one type of practice, which 

10 is certified organic, ruining the reputation of 

11 product, we have only to go to look at organic 

12 dairy and to see what happened when factory farms 

13 like Aurora Dairy and those in Texas were able to 

14 undercut the whole market and reduce certified 

15 organic milk, which didn't match any of the 

16 certification criteria and definitely didn't meet 

17 consumer expectations.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I will ask not to 

19 name folks in particular. Speak broadly.

20 MR. MALTBY: Okay. My apologies for 

21 that. It's a well-known company, but and to come 

22 back to the in-person meetings, when I first 
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1 attended the in-person meetings, I was not very 

2 forthcoming and I learned how to be a policy nerd 

3 at those meetings. I had some great mentoring 

4 there, and from the point of view of cost, no 

5 meeting I ever went to cost $2,000. 

6 I know some cheap motels out near the 

7 airport in D.C., and can always go to a Subway to 

8 get a sandwich. So I think that when we look at 

9 that issue, look at how -- if I can just finish 

10 this sentence -- look at how, you know, access is 

11 not universal. 

12 Even in Vermont, you don't have 

13 universal. So in some cases it's very difficult 

14 for producers, especially those at the age that 

15 I'm at, to adapt to speaking into the camera 

16 poised on the end of the computer screen. So if 

17 we're talking about equality in representation, 

18 we need to have both sets of attendance at 

19 meetings. Thank you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate your 

21 comments, and any questions from the Board? 

22 Ed, on organic dairy, real quick I 
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1 have a question for you. It seems that we have 

2 put a lot of eggs in the baskets of standards, in 

3 the basket of standards. They were hoping that 

4 the grazing rule will fix our oversupply problem. 

5 We're hoping that animal welfare, the origin of 

6 livestock, will fix the welfare problem, or will 

7 fix the oversupply problem.

8 At what point do we start looking 

9 bigger, and start figuring out that if we looked 

10 30 years ago, if organic had looked at small, 

11 conventional dairyland and as friends and 

12 neighbors, as opposed to as rivals or not good 

13 enough, we would have seen that dairy is prone to 

14 oversupply, that it seems that there's just 

15 incessant whiplash in this market without 

16 something like a quota, say, that Canada has.

17 How do we start looking at driving 

18 more demand, rather than just constricting 

19 supply, as a way to keep farmers on the land? 

20 And we can have both. It's not an 

21 either/or, but what is that means of driving 

22 demand and how do we get it so that organic milk 
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1 makes up half of America's milk market, or that 

2 we see we have growing opportunities? How do we 

3 get it so that the Farm Bill requires that ten 

4 percent of all school milk is certified organic? 

5 How do we build our coalitions to be more broad 

6 than just saying standards are going to save us?

7 MR. MALTBY: Well, this Committee 

8 maybe has gone on for longer than anticipated, 

9 but I have been known to talk to four or five 

10 hours about these answers to the many problems 

11 out there. 

12 From the point of view of --

13 conventional dairy is heavily subsidized and 

14 that's why we're putting together a request to 

15 the Congress to have a safety net program for 

16 organic dairy, that will guarantee a minimum 

17 price.

18 At this point, organic dairy is 

19 heavily consolidated, as are the processing 

20 restrictions. When you look at the pasture rule, 

21 then you have got the origin of livestock. The 

22 origin of livestock and the intent within the 
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1 original rule was that it would take three years 

2 to transition. You had enough initiative to 

3 build the organic herd that would take one year 

4 to transition. That could have been phased out 

5 or should have been phased out.

6 But what happened, what you had was a 

7 massive growth in 2015, because the origin of 

8 livestock rule was not implemented equally across 

9 the country. So it's again consistency of 

10 standards, consistency of implementation and 

11 enforcement, you know. The SOE does address some 

12 of that enforcement when you come to risk 

13 analysis on large-scale dairies. 

14 I would challenge any of the 

15 certifiers as to whether they have inspectors 

16 that qualify enough to go out and inspect a 

17 10,000 cow dairy and get a good balance of what 

18 comes in, what goes out, where it comes from, you 

19 know, is it pasture-based? So I think what has 

20 happened is that the standards --

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And I apologize 

22 for time, Ed. How do we increase demand?
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1 MR. MALTBY: How do we increase 

2 demand? By highlighting the qualities of organic 

3 milk, and organic milk is going to be more 

4 expensive because it costs more to produce. It 

5 doesn't mean the producer is not going to get 

6 more. 

7 We should also look at more 

8 regionality in organic milk, so that you can cut

9 down the cost and the carbon footprint of 

10 trucking milk from the southwest all the way up 

11 to the tip of Maine.

12 So it's ensuring that the integrity, 

13 integrity, integrity of the organic certification 

14 is held out there, without any opportunity for 

15 somebody to undermine it as they have done in the 

16 past.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, we 

18 appreciate your comments today. Thank you.

19 MR. MALTBY: Thank you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

21 Mike Dill, followed by Jackie DeMinter and then 

22 Sal Pinkham.
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1 MR. DILL: Hello. My name is Mike 

2 Dill, and I'm representing the Organic Produce 

3 Wholesalers Coalition. OPWC is comprised of 

4 certified organic businesses that distribute 

5 fresh organic produce to retailers, restaurants, 

6 food buying clubs and processors.

7 My comments today are on the proposal 

8 for organic as climate-smart agriculture, 

9 oversight improvements to deter fraud and the 

10 petition for potassium sorbate. 

11 OPWC agrees with the intent of the 

12 climate-smart ag proposal, which is to quote in 

13 the packet, "sends a clear signal to the greater 

14 USDA that certified organic production should be 

15 automatically considered climate-smart, and 

16 therefore eligible for any and all funding 

17 opportunities and support through USDA programs."

18 The letter in the Board's proposal 

19 will serve as the official statement from the 

20 collective organic community that organic is 

21 climate-smart. Therefore, we feel it is 

22 important that the letter (1) be accurate, and 
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1 (2) incorporate feedback from the organic 

2 community.

3 Unfortunately, this is not what we see 

4 in the proposal. We do not find that any 

5 stakeholder feedback following the fall meeting 

6 was incorporated into the draft shared for this 

7 meeting. What's even more concerning to us is 

8 the lack of acknowledging that the community's 

9 feedback is the letter still contains multiple 

10 false and misleading responses.

11 For instance, the response to the 

12 Question No. 2 in the letter asks what USDA 

13 should prioritize to demonstrate the efficacy of 

14 organic farming as climate-smart agriculture. 

15 The written response states "Climate benefits of 

16 zero synthetic fertilizer use. The NOP 

17 standards prohibit crop production using 

18 synthetic fertilizers, herbicides and 

19 pesticides."

20 As mentioned in our written comments, 

21 it's common to see organic production described 

22 in popular articles as being pesticide-free or 
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1 not using any synthetic inputs. But we in this 

2 virtual room are familiar with the National List. 

3 OPWC asserts that the NOSB, the body required by 

4 federal law to review and approve the synthetic 

5 material, synthetic materials allowed in organic 

6 production should not perpetuate this 

7 misconception.

8 On oversight improvements to deter 

9 fraud, a/k/a the GPS discussion, we're not 

10 opposed to the idea, simply because of the new 

11 FISMA traceability rule, that it contains a 

12 similar requirement for many specialty crops. 

13 However, we note that FISMA has included field 

14 level identification as a way to react or respond 

15 to a food outbreak event. 

16 Therefore, we agree with some 

17 commenters who question how this will proactively 

18 deter fraud better than we're able to now under 

19 current systems, and we look forward to learning 

20 more about this in Atlanta. 

21 Then finally, we are unclear why a 

22 discussion document for the petition of potassium 
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1 sorbate was issued prior to the release of the TR 

2 that has specified and are specific to the use 

3 being petitioned. 

4 This material does show some promise 

5 for controlling pests and that heavily impacts 

6 the crop and deserves a fair trial. We ask that 

7 the Crop Subcommittee review the updated TR dated 

8 March 8th, 2023, and then update the discussion 

9 document. 

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

11 comments. Amy has a question for you.

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Hi Mike, thanks for 

13 attending today. I actually have several, but 

14 I'm going to reduce it to one. But I wanted to 

15 ask a little bit more on the potassium sorbate, 

16 just the last piece that you mentioned. You said 

17 it does -- this product potentially does show 

18 some promise for fighting disease and insects.

19 I did read the article that you 

20 included about from the Cornell Cooperative 

21 Extension. We have the petition. We have also 

22 the technical report that's available. Is there 
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1 any other research that you can point to that can 

2 help substantiate that idea, that there's promise 

3 here for being a solution? For this petition 

4 source.

5 MR. DILL: Yeah, yeah. For, I mean 

6 for other resources, no. I think what we want to 

7 really find out is, or kind of clarify some of 

8 these speculative statements that were in there, 

9 such as folic acid should inhibit the growth of 

10 soil bacteria. There's a lot of shoulds and 

11 coulds and then a little bit more about, you 

12 know, the fact that it contains urea.

13 So I think we -- we want to have a 

14 little bit more time with this, and we spent, you 

15 know, the bulk of our review time going off of 

16 the old information, you know, the TR from what 

17 was it, like 2002. And then it wasn't until we 

18 were at the stage where comments were -- we were 

19 presenting them to our whole coalition and 

20 getting all the member feedback and we got that.

21 So everyone approved them and then we 

22 looked back and then saw them for the new 
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1 petition. So we didn't have a chance to 

2 incorporate any of that information or really 

3 review it. So what we really wanted, you know, 

4 to give this a fair trial, not dismiss it based 

5 off of old information, because I mean powdery 

6 mildew, if anyone's grown, you know, cucumbers or 

7 pumpkins, squash, anything, you've dealt with 

8 powdery mildew. I guarantee it.

9 So I think knowing that there's a 

10 potential for this to work against powdery 

11 mildew, just that alone, you know, is worth 

12 looking into, you know. We'd love to have more 

13 tools in the toolbox, but again only if those are 

14 compatible with organic systems and they meet all 

15 the requirements.

16 We don't -- we don't want every tool 

17 in the toolbox but, you know, if something meets 

18 requirements and it's a great alternative to what 

19 we have right now, then I think we should 

20 consider it, or at least look into it.

21 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Mike.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 
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1 for Mike from the Board? 

2 I've got a couple for you, Mike. From 

3 your written comments, you had singled out one of 

4 our members' statement of "voting with their 

5 heart." I was wondering what is a good enough 

6 threshold to describe how we incessantly canvass 

7 our constituents every day, live with our 

8 constituents every day, and how would you like us 

9 to better orate and articulate whom we spoke with 

10 before we vote? It seems like we'd like to get 

11 this right.

12 MR. DILL: Yes. Well, it's a heavy 

13 question, but I think what I have seen as being 

14 missing from, you know, the last several NOSB 

15 meetings, you know, before your time, Nate, is 

16 that we don't hear a lot anymore about the 

17 stakeholder or the groups that the chairs 

18 represent. 

19 So you know, when we're talking about 

20 say climate-smart agriculture proposal, I would 

21 love to hear, you know, a lot from the 

22 environmental groups and the consumer interest 
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1 groups on what they're, they're hearing. Or you 

2 know like, you know, I don't want to give out any 

3 examples.

4 But it just seems like, you know, 

5 hearing that let's say Jerry for instance, you 

6 know. He wrote all of the comments and this is 

7 what he feels is the consensus amongst the crop 

8 producers or the wholesalers or the handlers. So 

9 just to really get a sense that this vote 

10 represents the group that you're representing, 

11 you know, the seat that you hold on the Board.

12 And you know, and I guess I apologize 

13 for using that exact quote. But I think that 

14 helps illustrate the point that that could have 

15 been an opportunity to say like my vote, my heart 

16 is here, but this is what this means to the group 

17 that I'm representing. And they could be the 

18 same, you know, or it could have, you know, the 

19 vote with my heart factored into this decision.

20 But to set that vote solely on like 

21 myself, this is what I feel and my heart is 

22 telling me, even though I've read countless, you 
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1 know, thousands of comments and pages and pages 

2 from stakeholders. 

3 That's what I'd like to see a little 

4 bit more of is, you know, the handlers feel this. 

5 The retailers feel this. The crop producers, 

6 this is their feedback and then we debate that 

7 and hear like okay, well you know, this group 

8 said this, this is important to these 

9 stakeholders. How do we come to consensus or is 

10 there a middle path or how do we get to that 

11 vote.

12 So I don't know if that's the best way 

13 to describe that, but so to answer your question, 

14 that's the best I got.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

16 ahead.

17 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thanks Mike. 

18 Just a quick follow-up to that. Do you think 

19 that the consumer is by far the biggest numerical

20 group of stakeholders?

21 MR. DILL: I mean by number I would 

22 say yes but I, you know, they're not the ones 
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1 that are all responding here. So that's, I mean 

2 that's a really interesting question. 

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: So I represent the, 

4 you know, consumer and public interest, and there 

5 are a lot of responses from consumers in our 

6 written comments. Just putting out a little 

7 perspective there.

8 MR. DILL: Sure, and I'm not trying to 

9 suggest that one outweighs the other, if that's 

10 what you're kind of asking. So but this Board 

11 represents, you know, 20 to 30 thousand certified 

12 operations, $60 billion industry, you know, and 

13 millions and millions of consumers. So it is a 

14 balance, but that's why we'd like to just see a 

15 little bit more, you know, kind of clear.

16 Like if you were sharing out Brian, 

17 you could say, you know, I focused a little bit 

18 more on the consumers. Not necessarily the 

19 certified operations or the farmers, but this is 

20 what the consumers were telling me. These were 

21 the comments that stuck out to me from consumers, 

22 because you're probably all going to read the 
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1 same comments on the topic, but then you could 

2 summarize your group; someone else could 

3 summarize their group. 

4 That would be helpful for us, to hear 

5 a little bit more about what you're hearing from 

6 different constituents, from different groups.

7 (Simultaneous speaking.)

8 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. We try to 

9 read a bunch, as many comments as we can. But we 

10 can't get through them.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

12 questions for Mike? Mindee, please go ahead.

13 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you so much, 

14 Mike, and I apologize because there was one 

15 section of your comments that I need to re-read. 

16 But just in case, I'll have the opportunity to 

17 ask you a question. Were you suggesting that a 

18 TR template should be developed solely for the 

19 excluded methods questions, a separate template?

20 MR. DILL: It's been a while since 

21 I've thought about that one. Not, not specific. 

22 If I recall, it's not specific to excluded 
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1 methods, but that would be included into the 

2 regular TR. 

3 MEMBER JEFFERY: Okay, great. I just 

4 wanted to make sure I didn't misread you there. 

5 I appreciate your responses today. Thank you so 

6 much. 

7 MR. DILL: No problem.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

9 questions for Mike?

10 All right. We appreciate your 

11 comments. Thank you all. Next up, we have 

12 Jackie DeMinter, followed by Sal Pinkham and then 

13 Colehour Bondera. Jackie. Jackie, you're there. 

14 The floor is yours. 

15 MS. DeMINTER: Can you hear me?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please go 

17 ahead.

18 MS. DeMINTER: Wonderful. Good 

19 afternoon. My name is Jackie DeMinter. I am the 

20 certification policy manager at MOSA. Thank you 

21 for the opportunity to comment. MOSA certifies 

22 almost 1,900 organic operations throughout the 
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1 U.S., including over 700 crop, livestock, 875 

2 crops and 325 handling operations.

3 I am commenting today primarily on the 

4 discussion document for technical reports. We 

5 use technical reports to gain a deeper 

6 understanding of materials on the National List, 

7 and to review why some materials didn't make the 

8 cut. 

9 The current format is easy to follow 

10 and we find all the information, information 

11 sections very helpful to understand the material. 

12 We also use TRs to support our decision-making 

13 on materials, and think they're especially 

14 helpful in the decision that's tricky to make.

15 We regularly reference the petitioned 

16 substances database. Being able to follow a 

17 material through the process is a very helpful 

18 understanding to have, and a consolidation of the 

19 petition technical reports, all the NOSB work in 

20 the final decision and place for each material 

21 and scope is considered as extremely useful.

22 We appreciate this easily accessible 
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1 resource. A similar approach to review of 

2 excluded methods would seem as if it could work, 

3 and also be very helpful information to have. We 

4 would appreciate the resource. Thank you for the 

5 work you have put into developing and maintaining 

6 the excluded methods chart. 

7 We include chart in our excluded 

8 methods form and use it as a reference in MOSA 

9 decision-making. In one circumstance, a client 

10 indicated they used an induced mutagenesis 

11 process and assumed that it was prohibited. 

12 However, after a more careful review 

13 of the chart's exclusions from induced 

14 mutagenesis, additional follow-up with the 

15 manufacturer and discussion with OMRI, we 

16 determined that the type of induced mutagenesis 

17 used was chemical, and therefore not currently 

18 prohibited.

19 Thank you again for maintaining this 

20 very helpful resource. We support using a 

21 technical report approach to gather additional 

22 information on excluded methods when deemed 
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1 appropriate. We also submitted a letter on 

2 sunset materials, including information about our 

3 client's use, and answers to the stakeholder 

4 questions relevant to our work as a certification 

5 agency.

6 Finally, we want to be a voice of 

7 support for continuing all public comments 

8 virtually. The elimination of public comments at 

9 the in-person meeting has not seemed to reduce 

10 the effectiveness of the overall meeting 

11 proceedings. We appreciate that the NOP has the 

12 same period of time to consider all public 

13 comments before discussion begins.

14 Thank you again for all of the work 

15 you do and for the opportunity to comment. 

16 Please let us know if you have any questions.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

18 Jackie? Questions for Jackie? Thank you for 

19 your comments, Jackie. Questions for Jackie from 

20 the Board? Mindee, please go ahead.

21 MEMBER JEFFERY: Hi Jackie. Thank you 

22 so much for all of your hard work. I was 
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1 wondering in the question with the person who was 

2 using the induced mutagenesis, if they gave you 

3 any idea of how long it would take and like what 

4 the implications are, because I have a maybe 

5 vague understanding of seed development, and like 

6 that it could have a very big implications though 

7 we might need a long lead time to change those 

8 things, because the seed varieties take a while.

9 If you don't have perspective, that's 

10 totally fine, don't worry. I was just if you 

11 did.

12 MS. DeMINTER: I don't think we do 

13 have additional perspective, and I would have to 

14 dig back into that documentation. But the point 

15 that I wanted to make being that the way the NOP 

16 or NOSB is included those exclusions right in the 

17 excluded method chart was very helpful as we dug 

18 into that topic, into the actual process that 

19 they were using, because at face value, it seems 

20 like it was prohibited.

21 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jackie, I just 
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1 want to grab on that little nugget you left us 

2 with on virtual comments. You represent a really 

3 big group of farmers. 

4 MOSA has a ton of farmers who have a 

5 lot of input and lot of stake in these meetings, 

6 and I think you hit on something that's very, 

7 very interesting to this equity question, giving 

8 everyone the same amount of time between when we 

9 hear the question or the comment and when we 

10 vote. 

11 I think that is not to be undersold, 

12 that if you're in the ears of the Board five 

13 minutes before they voted because you've got an 

14 extra two grand to get over to the meeting, that 

15 does elevate your position just in the memory of 

16 how folks are processing. So I think that is a 

17 really important point, and I really appreciate 

18 you bringing it up.

19 MS. DeMINTER: Yes, thank you Nate. 

20 Very important consideration.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

22 for Jackie?
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1 All right, Jackie. We appreciate your 

2 time today. Thank you for your comments.

3 MS. DeMINTER: Thank you very much.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

5 Sal Pinkham, followed by Colehour Bondera and 

6 then Kristen Adams. We are getting to the end of 

7 the wire folks, so bear with us. Sal, the floor 

8 is all yours.

9 MS. PINKHAM: Thank you. Can you hear 

10 me?

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

12 MS. PINKHAM: Wonderful. Hi, my name 

13 is Sal Pinkham. I'm the certification program 

14 manager, OEFFA Certification, and I'll comment on 

15 two topics today. 

16 First, consistent location 

17 identification. We appreciate the Committee's 

18 continued efforts at fraud prevention, but this 

19 proposal raises logistical and equity concerns. 

20 OEFFA OSPs do require lots of locations for all 

21 organic and transitioning fields, and locations 

22 for all conventional fields. Usually locations 
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1 are street addresses.

2 OEFFA farmers in our organic work 

3 group do not mind sharing GSP coordinates, noting 

4 they already provide this information to Farm 

5 Service Agency. We encourage interdepartmental 

6 collaboration at USDA, so that they are not 

7 required to double report this data.

8 However, we also certify hundreds of 

9 plain community farmers who engage less 

10 frequently with FSA and utilize technology 

11 selectively in accordance with their religious 

12 beliefs and culture. It would be a heavy lift 

13 for us to collect GPS coordinates from farms in 

14 this community.

15 It's common to have 20 or more fields 

16 in an OSP, and taking time during inspection to 

17 locate the exact center to verify or provide GPS 

18 coordinates would greatly increase time spent 

19 inspecting. Field boundaries would be more 

20 useful for fraud prevention, especially for large 

21 fields or fields with pollinator, habitat or 

22 other buffers, but walking all the boundaries of 
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1 every field would be even more time-consuming.

2 OEFFA does require inspectors to visit 

3 each certified or requested field every year, but 

4 specifically seeking the center of the field 

5 would distract from important tasks like 

6 assessing buffer adequacy, crop management and 

7 soil health. OEFFA contracts with several 

8 inspectors who are consultants in the plain 

9 community, who add unique qualities and 

10 perspective to our inspector pool.

11 However, plain inspectors do not 

12 typically use GPS technology, and it would be 

13 exclusionary to require GPS use at inspection. 

14 Certifiers who work with plain inspectors would 

15 face an extra logistical burden, to avoid 

16 assigning them new operations or operations with 

17 new fields.

18 And if previous land use affidavits 

19 must include GPS coordinates, operators in the 

20 plain community face a greater barrier, 

21 particularly if they acquire land from others in 

22 the plain community who also do not use GPS 
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1 technology. Our written comments include 

2 additional logistical and practical concerns. 

3 Second, we again urge NOSB to activate 

4 the latent agenda item field and greenhouse 

5 container production. Because aeroponic, 

6 hydroponic and crops grown to maturity in 

7 containers do not comply with OFPA, and because 

8 there is significant inconsistency in the way 

9 these forms of production are being handled by 

10 organic certifiers, we urge the Board to call for 

11 a moratorium on the certification of new 

12 hydroponic and aeroponic operations, and crops 

13 grown to maturity in containers, until we can 

14 utilize our existing NOSB and rulemaking process 

15 to move forward with greater consistency.

16 The future of organic integrity 

17 depends on how we handle this topic, not to 

18 mention our assertion that organic is climate19 smart. It's hard to say you take care of the 

20 earth when you eliminate it from your growing 

21 system.

22 Thank you NOSB members for your 
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1 service, your efforts to protect organic 

2 integrity, and the opportunity to offer comments 

3 today.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for Sal 

5 from the Board?

6 I've got a couple for you. As a proud 

7 former OEFFA organic inspector, I like how you 

8 noted that we do visit every field every year. 

9 We'll -- I'll definitely make sure about wording. 

10 We are not proposing middle of fields. We are 

11 proposing that we have any idea on paper anywhere 

12 where fields are. Given those hand-drawn maps 

13 that we accept, I'm really as an inspector 

14 completely at the mercy of the farmer, to show me 

15 which field is which.

16 There's not consistent data to show 

17 that we have an idea, especially as a certifier 

18 but definitely as USDA, where all these fields 

19 are, where they are and consistently how we track 

20 them. When we think about perfect being the 

21 enemy of the good, if we have three, even ten 

22 plain community inspectors, should we base a 
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1 policy on those three out of maybe 300 inspectors 

2 in the country? Why don't you answer those two 

3 first?

4 MS. PINKHAM: Great, thank you. I 

5 want to tackle the second one first, because it's 

6 interesting to me from an equity perspective. We 

7 heard a comment recently, I think it was from 

8 Wolf and Associates, about how essentiality is 

9 determined for materials, and that just having a

10 few people using a thing or launching a thing 

11 shouldn't prevent us from accepting that material 

12 in organic production.

13 I think a parallel can be drawn here, 

14 that we don't want to be excluding groups from 

15 inspections or certification or organic 

16 production more broadly. I think it's really 

17 important for not necessarily to shoot down any 

18 proposal to use technology, because some people 

19 don't use it, but to really consider the impacts 

20 of such a proposal.

21 And in our written comments which are 

22 much more detailed than what I said today, OEFFA 
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1 did not say we absolutely will not collect GPS 

2 coordinates. We said we have some concerns about 

3 how this will be used and how it will be 

4 collected, and we think it will have a 

5 disproportionate impact on the farmers that we 

6 certify and on also the certifier that does work 

7 with a higher proportion of plain community 

8 inspectors than most certifiers do.

9 To your first question, or your first 

10 point was about the center of the field, yeah. 

11 So the -- oh, and the hand-drawn maps, which are 

12 troublesome and delightful in equal measure. So 

13 OEFFA does require an address if possible for 

14 every field. We require like how many acres is 

15 it, how far is it from your main farm, how do we 

16 get to it?

17 If we run into a concern where we 

18 can't find a field, we do require more 

19 information from the operation until we can 

20 independently locate it. Yes, hand-drawn maps 

21 are sometimes not as good as GPS maps, but 

22 sometimes they're much more detailed and they 
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1 actually help you understand where fields are 

2 relative to each other, and how the farm operates 

3 as a whole.

4 So from the principle that organic is 

5 a -- okay, here are our standards. Show us how 

6 you meet -- I think we should continue to accept 

7 hand-drawn maps and field addresses --

8 (Simultaneous speaking.)

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm sorry not --

10 love a good hand-drawn map. Not meaning to get 

11 rid of them at all, but when that's the only 

12 thing you have. It seems like we are just -- we 

13 have a short ability to be able to have good data 

14 on where are all these fields? If there's a 

15 massive spray event, something happens where we 

16 have a big contamination event or we have a 

17 really big question about a given county, 

18 understanding where these fields that we certify 

19 are located seems to be a point of improvement,

20 that we don't really have.

21 And I guess this will be my final 

22 question for you. Can OEFFA tell me exactly 
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1 where every field is?

2 MS. PINKHAM: We currently do track 

3 every field and every OSP. We have an ability to 

4 find it. It's true that if there were a spray 

5 event such as the spraying for eastern equine 

6 encephalitis that happened in Indiana a year or 

7 two ago, we did get in touch with all of the 

8 farms in that area who may have been impacted by 

9 that spraying event.

10 We know county level and city level 

11 and zip codes of where the farms are located, and 

12 we know the distance from the main farm. We have 

13 street addresses. We don't currently track all 

14 of those street addresses in our database, 

15 because of the time commitment it would take to 

16 track it relative to the perceived benefits.

17 We're open to changing that if we can 

18 be convinced that it's sufficiently worthwhile.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I appreciate you 

20 accepting so many questions from me all at once. 

21 I'm going to hand it over to Jerry real quick.

22 MS. PINKHAM: Jerry, you're muted.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: You're muted.

2 MEMBER D'AMORE: My question of you 

3 Nate, was are you going to hand it over real 

4 quick, or are you going to make Jerry be real 

5 quick? I'd like to note that there's been 12 

6 mentions just today of hydroponic growing in 

7 containers, and I'd like to also then note that 

8 it's very gratifying that nobody's yelling at 

9 anybody.

10 I sort of like the idea that we're 

11 talking, and so I have a very specific question 

12 of you, if I may. Were you to get information 

13 that the, you know, the low profile NFT 

14 hydroponic that's been in existence here for 40 

15 years, 50 years that I know, because I've been 

16 involved in it, which is the production of head 

17 lettuce, were you to have a definitive study that 

18 showed you that for each acre of that system that 

19 was under cultivation, you could give back 25 

20 acres of field production, would it take a little 

21 bit of the sting away from what hydroponics does 

22 or doesn't do for the field?
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1 So that's the -- or for soil. So 

2 that's the first one, and what I just mentioned 

3 is a study that was done by Rutgers and given to 

4 me in 1979, saying this is what you've got. And 

5 if you can take -- and then I think you can take 

6 this vertical farming to some mathematical 

7 extremes, where that could be as much as a factor 

8 of 200. 

9 Is it -- would it take -- would it 

10 just give a different view of this soil-bound 

11 piece and how good one is to the soil, if 

12 literally you could give back 25 acres for every 

13 one you put under cover?

14 MS. PINKHAM: So just to be really 

15 clear, I do not personally, nor does OEFFA as a 

16 certifier or as a membership organization, have a 

17 problem with hydroponic production. The quibble 

18 that we have, and it's a significant one, is that 

19 under the Organic Foods Production Act, soil is a 

20 mandatory component of an organic production 

21 system, and it's written into the regulations in 

22 several parts.
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1 It's impossible for us as a certifier 

2 to hold all farms to a consistent standard, which 

3 is the whole point of our certification program, 

4 if some of them are growing in soil and some of 

5 them are not, because there aren't standards. 

6 Which is why we're asking for the field and 

7 greenhouse container production to get back on 

8 the agenda, so that we as the community can 

9 really move forward, figure out what our 

10 container-growing standards are.

11 Maybe ultimately the result will be 

12 let's change OFPA and let's change the 

13 regulations to cover hydroponics. But currently 

14 they don't allow for it, and the fact that it is 

15 being certified leads to a great deal of 

16 inconsistency in the marketplace.

17 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you so much for 

18 that comment. I'd like to make one more 

19 observation, which is that, you know, the 

20 National List is part of that same document, and 

21 if National List is a list that gives tools 

22 founded on exceptions to people to do what we 
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1 hope they can do. I'm just wondering if that, 

2 you know, did that go stagnant somewhere back in, 

3 you know, 20 years ago? 

4 Are we no longer willing to say hey, 

5 this has value and we're going to -- we are going 

6 to give you those tools through the National List 

7 to engage. That -- it's just another one of the 

8 points where I think that there's more room, and 

9 by the way you can read things differently and 

10 I'm not going to tell you that I've read, I've 

11 read things better than you have at all. But, 

12 and that's going back to OFPA.

13 But in terms of just having a mind 

14 that's open enough to say there's that -- that we 

15 organics are founded on a system that allows us 

16 to have exceptions, can't we be that generous 

17 going forward too?

18 MS. PINKHAM: I really appreciate 

19 where you're coming from with this, and I think 

20 it's very important that -- I mean speaking with 

21 my certifier hat on, because I have to make 

22 actual policy decisions when somebody applies for 
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1 certification to say can my farm comply? I 

2 cannot in good conscience, based on the actual 

3 wording in the regulations or the law, certify a 

4 hydroponic operation because it's simply not 

5 supported. 

6 That's not to say that we as an 

7 industry can't have an open-minded conversation 

8 about well, what is organic really about? We 

9 care about the planet, we care about people, we 

10 care about food, let's move it forward. But 

11 under -- as it currently exists, it's very clear 

12 that the law and the regulations do not support 

13 it, and until we as an industry are conversing 

14 about it with the fact that it is, I don't think 

15 we can move forward productively about we might 

16 incorporate other types of farming into the 

17 organic umbrella.

18 MEMBER D'AMORE: Well again, thank you 

19 very much. As I said in the beginning, I had 12 

20 reasons why I wanted to at least mention it, and 

21 founded in the fact that all 12 of them were 

22 well-reasoned responses or deliveries. You just 
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1 made the 13th, so thank you very much.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

3 Sal. Folks, we have five commenters left, and I 

4 just want to give a huge shout out to all of you 

5 for sticking with us. These have been some of 

6 the best conversations I've heard while during my 

7 time on the Board. So I really appreciate your 

8 grace for letting us go a little bit over.

9 So we'll try to keep moving along 

10 here. So thank you again Sal. Next up we have 

11 Colehour Bondera, followed by Kristen Adams and 

12 then Emily Musgrave. Colehour, please go ahead.

13 MR. BONDERA: Okay, am I good?

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can hear 

15 you.

16 MR. BONDERA: You guys can hear me 

17 fine? Okay. Hello. My name's Colehour Bondera, 

18 a former NOSB member and a long-time small scale 

19 diversified beetle organic, certified organic 

20 farm, Kanalani Ohana Farm in Kona, Hawaii. Today 

21 I'll provide some thoughts about overall organic 

22 integrity, and specifically Handling Subcommittee 
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1 procedures and Crop Subcommittee's consideration 

2 of plastic mulches.

3 Organic farmers are looking out for 

4 the whole system that they live in, and moreso 

5 the whole ecosystem where located. This is not 

6 only my thought, but it's also what OFPA 

7 requires. The USDA via NOP, via NOSB reviewed 

8 system has cycles. In our context, it's called a 

9 sunset.

10 Since everything permitted for use in 

11 organic must be fully reviewed every five years, 

12 do we agree at a serious level to allow things to 

13 remain on the National Organic List, or must we 

14 seek constant improvement? Everything cannot and 

15 should not be organic without oversight. 

16 Our responsibility is to ensure that 

17 the activities remain as healthy to the 

18 ecosystem, to the farm, to ourselves, to soil 

19 microbes, to consumers, etcetera as possible.

20 Therefore, we must monitor and limit 

21 and be careful with all inputs which are 

22 permitted. Within the Handling Subcommittee, 
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1 there are two items that deserve attention. 

2 First that 205.606 states that up to five percent 

3 non-organic processing ingredients can be used if 

4 organic is not available. 

5 Since these ingredients are available 

6 in organic form, close that loophole. Do not 

7 permit these unneeded exceptions.

8 Second is that the chemicals and 

9 chemical change via ion exchange resins, so I've 

10 listened throughout today and I know that 

11 different testimony has said different things, 

12 they might affect food products. These resins 

13 must each be carefully reviewed to be included in 

14 organic product, and not permitted via a blanket 

15 allowance of ion exchange in organic processes.

16 Keep organic what it's meant to be. 

17 Do not permit synthetic ingredients which result 

18 from chemical change via their inclusion. Each 

19 item must be reviewed and not put under a blanket 

20 or simply because allowed via FDA approval. This 

21 is similar to frankly my college days with inert 

22 ingredients in pesticide formulation.
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1 They're often not inert. Just because 

2 the EPA said that they were okay, it doesn't mean 

3 it's true. We need to look at full formulation.

4 Next is that the Crop Subcommittee 

5 will again be dealing with the topic of plastic 

6 mulch. This has gone on for much too long for 

7 me. When our family moved to our already8 certified organic farm over 21 years ago, I was 

9 disturbed to see that the previous farmers had 

10 been using plastic mulch.

11 Upon review at that time, I found out 

12 that it was still permitted. As is common, full 

13 cleanup had not been done, which is why we found 

14 remnants of plastic sheets on our farm. Why? 

15 Frankly, this type of experience was a strong 

16 motivation for me to serve on the NOSB. Why 

17 could or would people who care about Pele, a wise 

18 earth goddess, think about Mother Earth, even 

19 consider to use and leave plastic mulch?

20 I don't comprehend it. While on the 

21 NOSB I was surprised in 2011 and 2015 when 

22 relisting of plastic mulches was passed by NOSB 
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1 vote because of continued dependency. Decades 

2 passed, and there seems to be a (audio 

3 interruption). I guess I'll just wrap up and say 

4 please uphold the integrity of organic, and vote 

5 to let plastic mulch leave organic with the 

6 setting sun. Thank you.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

8 comments. Any questions for Colehour? 

9 All right; We appreciate you. Next 

10 up we have Kristen Adams, followed by Emily 

11 Musgrave, Bradley McNeil and then we'll follow 

12 the day with James Riddle. Kristen.

13 MS. ADAMS: Hi, thank you for your 

14 time. My name is Kristen Adams. I'm affiliated 

15 with MOSA Certified Organic. So MOSA certifies 

16 about 1,930 producers, 55 -- we also work with 55 

17 contract inspectors and represent a staff of 40 

18 employees.

19 I will let you know my thoughts today 

20 are very candid at this late hour. I have been 

21 listening and have some specific things that I'd 

22 like to respond to. 
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1 But before we get into the off the 

2 book conversation, I definitely just want to 

3 thank Jenny and her staff for their work on SOE, 

4 the federal registry notice, that 80 page 

5 document, provided amazing comments and a 

6 foundation for MOSA to be able to start 

7 interpreting the rule and changing our forms, 

8 updating our OSPs, our inspection reports, and 

9 get communication out to our clients really 

10 quickly.

11 So all of that work has already been 

12 done. It's been a hot minute or two since SOE 

13 dropped. So now we can actually like move into 

14 implementation periods, and start working with 

15 the ACA groups and working collaboratively to 

16 make sure that we're all aligned.

17 A couple of notes that I wanted to 

18 share from our clients. They are asking for 

19 harmonized paperwork. So I think it was, let's 

20 see, Carolyn who had a question about how could 

21 we increase producer confidence in USDA? If we 

22 think about like some of the burdens in organic, 
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1 first of all like field production system could 

2 be considered a burden.

3 The second largest burden or possibly 

4 the first major obstacle to overcome is the 

5 paperwork. So if we recognize that our farmers 

6 and our producers, our handlers are investing 

7 time, resources into that paperwork, let's like 

8 make that as applicable across the USDA system as 

9 possible. Let's value it as much as possible, 

10 and reduce the need for redundant paperwork from 

11 one agency to another agency.

12 Let's like formally honor the work 

13 that they're putting into their paperwork, by 

14 giving it increased value. One stop shopping, 

15 folks. 

16 I think that there are a number of 

17 initiatives that have rolled out recently that 

18 have the potential to compete with each other 

19 unintentionally. So let's also make sure that 

20 these initiatives to increase organic acreage, 

21 bring folks into the transitional world and 

22 increase market access are harmonized from one 
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1 agency to another. 

2 So that again looks like some sort of 

3 standardized paperwork, which I cannot believe 

4 I'm saying out loud. Several months ago I was 

5 like no, don't take MOSA's individual voice away. 

6 (Audio interruption.) Sorry I didn't get to my 

7 hydroponic comments.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's okay. I 

9 have -- I have a quick question for you, but I'm 

10 going to let everyone go first real quick. Oh, 

11 Jerry, go ahead.

12 MEMBER D'AMORE: I'd love to hear your 

13 hydroponic question.

14 MS. ADAMS: It's maybe not a question, 

15 but a comment. MOSA does certify hydroponic 

16 operations. We believe that we do so in 

17 compliance with the standards. We also believe 

18 that in this day and age, we need creative, 

19 flexible solutions that bring as many people to 

20 the organic table as possible.

21 We need all of the elements at the 

22 table. We talk a lot about soil, what is soil 
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1 without water, etcetera, etcetera. So one of the 

2 ways for us to start really having full 

3 conversations about how hydroponics can offer a 

4 solution, they're not the answer to everything, 

5 is to invite hydroponics formally, comfortably, 

6 publicly to the organic table.

7 MEMBER D'AMORE: I'm glad I asked the 

8 question. Thank you.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I am too. A great 

10 answer. So Kristen, I realize that it's late, 

11 but I'm going to take advantage of the fact that 

12 you're in candid mode. Does MOSA, when you say 

13 harmonized documents, are you saying universal 

14 OSP?

15 MS. ADAMS: Yes. Nate, thank you very 

16 much. I dare to say yes. Harmonizing, either a 

17 harmonized OSP or some form of like addendums 

18 that work together, that just reduce 

19 redundancies. It also probably looks like cross20 training and collaboration across agencies. So 

21 it's not just about the paperwork; it's about 

22 understanding each of the silos and how they all 
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1 work together.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So in the creation 

3 of that universal OSP, do you think it should be 

4 private companies building them and then pitching 

5 them to the USDA, or do you think -- who do you 

6 think should make this universal OSP and how do 

7 you think it should be stewarded?

8 MS. ADAMS: Well, I have been recently 

9 like honored enough to be in some conversations 

10 that are talking about like full stakeholder 

11 engagement. So one example is like ACA. There's 

12 a couple of working groups about increasing 

13 access to government funding, technology, 

14 innovations in inspections, and those folks are 

15 saying who else besides ACA or accredited 

16 certifiers needs to be part of this conversation?

17 So I think there's a number of 

18 solutions. I don't have a magic answer for you. 

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No, no. Yeah, 

20 great starting point. Any other questions for 

21 Kristen from the Board? Thank you, really 

22 appreciate you. Next up we have Emily Musgrave, 
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1 followed by Bradley McNeil and then we're closing 

2 the day with James Riddle. Emily, the floor is 

3 yours.

4 MS. MUSGRAVE: Great. Can you hear me 

5 okay?

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

7 MS. MUSGRAVE: Great. Good afternoon. 

8 My name is Emily Musgrave. I'm the organic 

9 regulatory manager at Driscoll's. As always, I 

10 would like to thank the NOSB for their tremendous 

11 commitment by serving on the Board.

12 My comments focus on the continued 

13 allowance of plastic mulch and covers, and I will 

14 state that Driscoll supports the relisting of 

15 elemental sulfur, liquid fish products, lime 

16 sulfur and sulfurous acid on the National List as 

17 well.

18 Additionally, I am a volunteer member 

19 of the International Fresh Produce Association's 

20 Organics Committee, and Driscoll supports the 

21 comments made by IFPA. Driscoll supports the 

22 continued listing of plastic mulch and covers on 
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1 the National List, as they are an essential tool 

2 for organic cultural control of weeds and 

3 disease. There are numerous agronomic benefits 

4 of plastic mulch including reducing nitrogen loss 

5 from the beds, and limiting the amount of water 

6 infiltration during extended rainy seasons.

7 During the cooler months, plastic 

8 mulch also promotes plant growth and soil microbe 

9 activity by keeping the soil warmer. The color 

10 of the plastic mulch is also important. Darker 

11 colored mulch allows for an earlier crop, because 

12 increased microbial activity from warmer soil 

13 temperatures helps convert more readily available 

14 nutrients that the plants can uptake quicker.

15 Conversely, using white or silver 

16 plastic mulch helps reduce the soil temperature 

17 in the warmer summer months, when excess heat can 

18 stunt or stress strawberry plants, also helping 

19 to conserve water and moisture during hot 

20 temperatures. Another benefit of plastic mulch 

21 is that it keeps the berries and plants from 

22 having direct contact with the soil, reducing 
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1 fruit rot and other fungal pathogens, because the 

2 fruit and leaves rest on a clean, dry surface of 

3 the mulch rather than the moist soil surface.

4 Plastic mulch is currently not widely 

5 recycled. However, Driscoll's is working on 

6 recycling pilots in California and Baja that have 

7 had some success. The widespread practice of 

8 recycling plastic mulch throughout the industry 

9 is years away. 

10 But there is hope on the horizon. 

11 There's increased interest and investment from 

12 growers, shippers, some manufacturers and 

13 distributors to make the recycling of plastic 

14 mulch possible on a larger scale. NGOs and 

15 foundations also want to solve this issue. 

16 Because of these increasing pressures 

17 from the organic industry, as well as consumers 

18 to reduce plastics in the organic supply chain, 

19 we anticipate industry coalitions will form to 

20 develop solutions needed to drive the increased 

21 adoption of plastic mulch recycling.

22 Driscoll's will continue to partner 
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1 with leaders on this issue, to develop innovative 

2 ways to accept push the recycling of plastic 

3 mulch forward to become an industry-wide 

4 practice. In the meantime, the loss of plastic 

5 mulch as a tool would be catastrophic for the 

6 organic berry industry, and we urge the NOSB to 

7 relist it. 

8 Driscoll's thanks the National Organic 

9 Standards Board for the opportunity to comment, 

10 and their commitment to protecting the integrity 

11 of the program. 

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

13 comments. Wood has a question for you.

14 MEMBER TURNER: Thanks, Emily. Why do 

15 you think the -- why do you think it's years away 

16 that we're going to be able to recover plastic 

17 mulch? And we've been having this conversation 

18 for as long as I can remember. I think I talked 

19 about ag plastics 15 years ago at least, and it's 

20 been long. I'm sure it's longer than that.

21 And so I just can't -- if it's 15 

22 years from now, that feels like that's too long. 
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1 So I don't, I don't know where we are on this. 

2 So I'm curious specifically for a big grower like 

3 Driscoll's, you know, what is the impetus, what 

4 is the role, what is the push that your 

5 organization is really doing to kind of drive 

6 this? 

7 Talk to me more about the details of 

8 where the barriers are and sort of what's 

9 actually happening. Is it dirty plastics? Is 

10 that the issue? Is it something else? Like 

11 what's going on?

12 MS. MUSGRAVE: Great question. So a 

13 few things. So I said years, and actually really 

14 much, much less. Like we're thinking less, you 

15 said 15 years. When I've talked to our R&D 

16 folks, it's maybe more like three to four years 

17 to become widely for the recycling of plastic 

18 mulch to be something industry-wide.

19 So the biggest -- even like two years 

20 ago, the biggest reason we have talked to -- I 

21 think Driscoll's talked to over 50 recycling 

22 companies in the U.S., and this was like two and 
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1 a half years ago, and they all would not take it, 

2 would not take the plastic mulch simply because 

3 it was too contaminated, right, with dirt and 

4 soil.

5 So I think what is -- literally this 

6 was about two years ago I think I commented to 

7 the Board. It was like nobody is taking the --

8 there's like nobody is taking the plastic mulch 

9 to recycle it because of the contamination. So 

10 what I have literally seen in just the past two 

11 years, recycling companies are now --

12 I think they're making it into like 

13 low grade, like making twist ties or low grade 

14 other things. They're somehow able with the 

15 technology, things are coming through where they 

16 are able to do something to recycle the plastic 

17 mulch, even though it's still contaminated with 

18 dirt and soil. So it's getting there. We're, 

19 like I said, we're piloting with some processors 

20 and recycling companies, and it was successful 

21 this year.

22 They have recycled plastic mulch. I 
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1 have heard from R&D folks, you know, we're making 

2 progress in actually recycling some of the 

3 plastic mulch used in strawberries in California 

4 and Baja this year and last year that was not 

5 getting recycled at all. Years before, those 

6 went straight to the landfill, and now a 

7 percentage with these partners is getting 

8 recycled.

9 So I think Driscoll's, on our scale of 

10 piloting, we just want to push that pilot program 

11 upward, and then we're hoping -- well, when I 

12 talked with our R&D folks they're wondering, you 

13 know, with it industry-wide, if it can be not 15 

14 years. We're talking about maybe, you know, 

15 within the next three to five years could be 

16 possibly, you know, more widespread recycling.

17 MEMBER TURNER: Thanks, great answer 

18 Emily. Need your muscle, need you guys' muscle 

19 on this big time.

20 MS. MUSGRAVE: We're on it.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry has a 

22 question for you, yeah.
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1 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes. I'd like to 

2 follow on what Wood just started and concluded 

3 for his topic, by sharing with you that I and 

4 others on the Board have had a frustration with 

5 the knowledge that no matter how hard we work, if 

6 we were to get something done in the organic 

7 world, what would we have accomplished? 

8 We would have accomplished, you know, 

9 getting rid of three percent of plastics. So my 

10 question would be you as the organic person and 

11 talking about your R&D, can we assume that where 

12 you're going with all of that would have a 

13 conventional component too? Because that would 

14 be wonderful. It would be wonderful just to hear 

15 that.

16 MS. MUSGRAVE: Absolutely. So I think 

17 none of our -- nobody, I mean none of the 

18 growers, conventional, organic, nobody wants to 

19 be seeing plastic mulch going to the landfills. 

20 So I absolutely think we will be trying this with 

21 both organic and conventional growers, and if we 

22 can get conventional plastic mulch being recycled 
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1 too, I mean yeah, definitely the case. That's a 

2 great question.

3 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you.

4 MS. MUSGRAVE: Okay, thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

6 ahead.

7 MEMBER CALDWELL: Hi Emily. Thanks a 

8 lot for your comments, and I asked this question 

9 of another person as well, but I know that 

10 Driscoll's has a lot of container berry 

11 operations and acres. 

12 Do you think -- do you have any life 

13 cycle analyses of the energy or carbon balances 

14 over the life cycle of these, of these you know 

15 systems, that would compare to, you know, in the 

16 ground kind of growing?

17 And if -- I was thinking that if you 

18 could possibly look for that and then just 

19 forward it to Michelle, that would be great, 

20 because I know you don't have it right on, you 

21 know, with you right now.

22 MS. MUSGRAVE: Yeah, yeah Brian. I 
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1 believe we do. I believe we've been looking at 

2 that. So I can get in touch with the right folks 

3 and forward you the information.

4 MEMBER CALDWELL: That's fantastic. 

5 Thank you very much.

6 MS. MUSGRAVE: You're welcome.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

8 questions for Emily? 

9 All right, Emily. We appreciate your 

10 time. 

11 MS. MUSGRAVE: Thank you very much.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Next up we 

13 have Bradley McNeil, followed by James Riddle. 

14 Bradley, the floor is yours.

15 MR. McNEIL: Yes, can everyone hear 

16 me?

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please go 

18 ahead.

19 MR. McNEIL: Okay. So B.J. McNeil 

20 with Rocking Z Acres, Wessington, South Dakota. 

21 I've got two things I'd like to address today. 

22 Number one, both will concern federal crop
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1 insurance. Number one thing I'd like to address 

2 is a topic called trend line yield that is used 

3 in crop insurance. 

4 What trend line yield does is it 

5 allows a producer who has grown a crop within a 

6 four-year period, continually within a four-year 

7 period or once within a four-year period, to get 

8 the trend line yield on that crop, meaning that 

9 corn hybrids, corn management continually 

10 increases, which is increasing yield. Because 

11 that happens, you're allowed to take a trend line 

12 yield bump within that county for a said crop.

13 Now as an organic producer, where we 

14 have long-term rotations, some of them up to six 

15 years, that limits us because we then cannot take 

16 advantage of that trend line yield. 

17 So if we have let's say alfalfa in our 

18 ground for four years and then we want to plant 

19 corn, well you no longer get trend line yield for 

20 corn like some of the other counterparts might, 

21 who are planting a corn-bean-corn rotation or 

22 corn-corn-corn or anything where they had corn 
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1 within four years. So that's kind of a negative 

2 effect on a lot of organic producers. 

3 The other thing, if you could move the 

4 slide ahead please? We can see here that crop 

5 insurance recognizes organic as a different 

6 practice. We have to keep different books, we 

7 have to have buffer zones, all that to stay 

8 obviously within the rules of organic production. 

9 If you could forward please. Right 

10 here, this slide just kind of -- this is all data 

11 that my insurance agent helped me get out of the 

12 crop insurance book to show -- out of RMA's book, 

13 to show how trend line yield is used and how it 

14 isn't, as you can see, just have the crop planted 

15 in one out of four years to get that trend line 

16 yield.

17 If you could go ahead, please. The 

18 second issue I would like to talk about is 

19 organic management not being recognized in an 

20 enterprise unit situation. So if I'm a producer 

21 and I have an organic crop growing in a section 

22 of ground or a unit, and I have a conventional 
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1 crop growing in that same unit, once I harvest 

2 those bushels, I'm not allowed to view those 

3 bushels as separate.

4 In other words, they're thrown into a 

5 pile and they're allocated to whatever my whole 

6 production insured was on that field. I can't 

7 separate my organic bushels from my conventional 

8 bushels. Now the reason I don't understand this, 

9 as you can see in my examples here, RMA allows 

10 you to recognize winter wheat different from 

11 spring wheat. You can insure them separately in 

12 an enterprise unit.

13 It allows you to, you know, separate 

14 all the dry beans, you can separate pinto beans 

15 separate from black beans. Same thing with 

16 sunflowers. You can insure your confectionary 

17 flowers separate from your oil types. But as you 

18 can see -- and then if we go to the next slide 

19 please? You can also see where they allow you to 

20 separate your management practice of irrigated 

21 versus non-irrigated, all within the same unit.

22 So I don't understand why we are not 
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1 allowed to look at organic practice and insure 

2 that separate from conventional practice, or why 

3 we're not allowed to insure organic corn versus 

4 conventional corn. Thank you very much for the 

5 time.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

7 those slides. This is really great, and thank 

8 you for bringing such actionable questions to us. 

9 I know that we have an expert in Amy, but this 

10 is really exceptional work and thank you for the 

11 time that went into preparing that presentation. 

12 We have a question for you from Kim. Kim, 

13 please go ahead.

14 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi BJ. I just have 

15 one quick question for you here. With the 

16 understanding of how its yields are determined 

17 and so forth in the conventional space in the 

18 rotation from an organic perspective, how would 

19 you suggest that be redesigned then for the 

20 organic farmer, to determine for crop insurance 

21 and yields?

22 MR. McNEIL: Well, I mean that's a 
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1 great question, one that's really complicated to 

2 answer. But I just feel, I mean if we're looking 

3 at this, they're giving you a trend line yield 

4 due to management practices, and what they're 

5 saying is you've grown corn multiple years, so 

6 you know how to manage it better, so therefore 

7 we'll give you this bump in coverage, right?

8 Well, if I'm an organic producer, and 

9 this doesn't affect just organic, but it just 

10 affects us more than conventional. I think 

11 conventional has the same argument, okay. It's 

12 just that it affects us because we do longer 

13 rotations in organics.

14 So if I do four years of alfalfa and 

15 then I plow that alfalfa and plant corn, odds are 

16 I'm going to have a more sustainable corn crop in 

17 that alfalfa ground than maybe the neighbor 

18 organic farm. Even though he's planted corn two 

19 out of the last four years, my corn crop is 

20 probably going to outyield his where he's done 

21 corn on corn out of the last two years. But yet 

22 I'm penalized and they're saying well, this guy 
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1 has been using it more, so therefore he's going 

2 to have a better crop.

3 Well that's just not the way it is in 

4 organics, you know, and we can extrapolate that 

5 in conventional too. But I mean it just seems 

6 like an unfair advantage, because I can give you 

7 several examples in my field this year, where we 

8 lost up to 18 bushels of coverage because I 

9 hadn't had corn in that unit one out of four 

10 years.

11 So if I had 150 bushels APH, if I put 

12 it at trend line, I would have got 168 on my 

13 insurance to guarantee. But because I hadn't had 

14 corn there, I get the 150. For the neighbor 

15 across the road, he got 168, you know. It seems 

16 like an unfair advantage.

17 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yeah, I understand 

18 the gap. It's just the solve, right?

19 MR. McNEIL: Right, right, right.

20 MEMBER HUSEMAN: The awareness and the 

21 attention is greatly appreciated. So good luck 

22 on planting this year as well. I know you guys 
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1 are getting closer to that date that moves up in 

2 the U.S., so I just want to say good luck in your 

3 planting intentions as well.

4 MR. McNEIL: Thank you very much.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have another 

6 question for you from Nate Lewis.

7 MEMBER LEWIS: Yeah, thanks BJ. Yeah, 

8 these crop insurance issues are really 

9 complicated, and everyone in various cropping 

10 systems and across the country have different 

11 experiences. 

12 What I'm trying to home in on is your 

13 opinion or your experience around the issues 

14 being a policy or a structure in RMA, or 

15 ignorance or naivete is probably a better, more 

16 flattering term for the adjuster in your area 

17 about organic systems.

18 Because I've, I've encountered where 

19 both are the issue, where one's the issue, the 

20 other's the issue and I think they both -- they 

21 require different solutions. Sometimes the RMA 

22 policy works, but the adjuster doesn't know what 
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1 they're doing or doesn't know organic, and 

2 sometimes it's the other way. Sometimes both 

3 things are not working well. So I'm curious what 

4 your experience has been in.

5 MR. McNEIL: My experience is it's 

6 been more RMA. Normally, I can teach or show my 

7 adjuster. They're normally in my corner. I mean 

8 every adjuster I've ever dealt with is always in 

9 the farmer's corner when it comes to those 

10 things, and if I can show him in the rules. I 

11 have a great agent. The agent will pull the 

12 rules out, show it to the adjuster, whatever.

13 So I've never had a problem with 

14 adjusters, and I've never had a problem with RMA. 

15 I just don't always understand the thoughts 

16 behind the rules when, you know, I mean I get 

17 originally how we -- a lot of times what it feels 

18 like is, you know, the whole big egg wants us to 

19 plant corn, right? 

20 So why do we have -- we have these 

21 policies that continually favor corn, and I just 

22 think that needs, you know, are we going to cull 
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1 that out of the system? No. But I wish they 

2 would recognize that maybe there's an exclusion 

3 in that trend line yield, that four-year rule in 

4 organics. 

5 Because it is a different system than 

6 conventionals. I mean it's different practice. 

7 They recognize it's different practices, as you 

8 can see on my slide. So I just think we need to 

9 recognize that hey, it's a different practice and 

10 there needs to be a few tweaking of the rules. 

11 You don't need to go change and build a whole new 

12 set of parameters or rules. But there needs to 

13 be little tweaks in here, and I think that's a 

14 big one, the trend line yield deal.

15 MEMBER LEWIS: That's interesting. 

16 Thank you very much.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

18 for BJ? 

19 All right. Really appreciate your 

20 time, both for preparing that presentation and 

21 meeting with us today. So thank you.

22 MR. McNEIL: Thank you.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Our last commenter 

2 for today will be James Riddle. James, the floor 

3 is yours.

4 MR. RIDDLE: Okay, thank you. My 

5 name's Jim Riddle, and I'm a former NOSB member, 

6 former chair and founding president of the IOIA. 

7 I currently serve on the Policy Committee of 

8 NOFA New Hampshire, and from personal experience, 

9 I understand that serving on the Board is much 

10 more than just an honor; it's a lot of work. So 

11 I really thank you for your service to our 

12 country and to our earth. 

13 I'd like to comment today on the CACS 

14 proposal organic is climate-smart agriculture, 

15 which states "While all certified organic 

16 production is climate-smart, not all climate17 smart production is certified organic." The NOSB 

18 should revise that sentence to read "While soil19 based certified organic production is climate20 smart, not all climate-smart production is 

21 certified organic," since as far as I can see, 

22 all of the research that you cite in your 
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1 excellent paper is based on soil-based organic 

2 production. 

3 And that term "soil-based" was 

4 officially used by the NOP last year when they 

5 announced a new online course, "Organic Field 

6 Crop Practices," and they stated the following: 

7 "Soil is a critical resource, and the USDA 

8 organic regulations emphasize the need to 

9 maintain or improve the natural resource of the 

10 operation, including soil and water quality.

11 "For soil-based operations, this 

12 includes cultivation practices that maintain or 

13 improve the physical, chemical or biological 

14 condition of the soil, minimize soil erosion, as 

15 well as managing crop nutrients and soil 

16 fertility through rotations, cover crops and the 

17 application of plant and animal materials." Now 

18 that's climate-smart.

19 But that's not what organic is these 

20 days. The soil-based operations comply with all 

21 the provisions of OFPA, including 6513(b)(1), 

22 which states "an organic plan shall contain 
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1 provisions designed to foster soil fertility, 

2 primarily through the management of organic 

3 content of the soil through proper tillage, crop 

4 rotation and manuring."

5 Water-based operations, including 

6 hydroponic and container systems, do not grow 

7 plants in soil. They deliver highly soluble 

8 nutrients through aqueous solutions to produce 

9 crops such as tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, 

10 greens and berries. OFPA contains no language 

11 that allows for organic crop production plans 

12 which do not foster soil fertility.

13 There's no language in OFPA that 

14 supports organic certification of water-based 

15 operations. NOP has issued no rules, no 

16 regulations or even online courses to guide the 

17 organic certification of water-based operations. 

18 They're totally dependent on external inputs. 

19 They do not foster soil fertility, use 

20 crop rotations, sequester carbon, protect natural 

21 resources or foster cycling of resources, promote 

22 ecological balance and conserve biodiversity as 
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1 required by the definition of organic production. 

2 They are not climate-smart.

3 I have one more point. I see my time 

4 is about up. You've been pretty generous with 

5 other presenters, so I'm hoping I can make my 

6 final point.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please go ahead.

8 MR. RIDDLE: Thank you. I call on the 

9 NOSB to investigate just how much of the U.S. 

10 organic market is comprised of products from 

11 water-based crop production systems, and how much 

12 of that production is imported from countries 

13 where the products couldn't even be sold as 

14 organic in those countries of origin, but yet 

15 they're being dumped on the U.S. market.

16 I think the NOSB needs to get the 

17 facts on how much is soil-based and how much is 

18 water-based. We have two very different systems 

19 of agriculture being certified as organic under 

20 the U.S. right now. Thank you.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

22 Jim? 
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1 Seeing none, all right, Jim.

2 MR. RIDDLE: Thank you very much.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, Mindee --

4 (Simultaneous speaking.)

5 MEMBER JEFFERY: Honestly, I wanted to 

6 say thank you for your service and thank you for 

7 your patience today, and everyone else who went 

8 real late and hung in there with us. I really 

9 appreciate it. I know you all have busy lives. 

10 So thank you Jim and everyone else.

11 MR. RIDDLE: Yeah, well thank you. 

12 And I really encourage consumers who are 

13 concerned about this to use the USDA, the NOP's 

14 official complaint system if they think products 

15 are not being produced in compliance with OFPA, 

16 with the soil requirements. That's what it's 

17 there for; use it. Thank you.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So Jim, real 

19 quick. That raises one question for me. Have 

20 you heard of any consumers having a problem with 

21 hydroponics, like by data?

22 (Simultaneous speaking.)
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1 MR. RIDDLE: --by data. But yeah, we 

2 have --

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have one follow4 up question to that. What is the propensity to 

5 be a conspiracy if we don't, and so an anecdote, 

6 if we don't have data? And I sort of meant that 

7 just to Dave Chapman as well. If we aren't 

8 talking data, how do we make policy decisions? 

9 Otherwise it's, you know, sort of --

10 (Simultaneous speaking.)

11 MR. RIDDLE: That's why I'm calling on 

12 you to find the data to know just how much, and 

13 the certifiers have this. They know which 

14 operations they certify which are soil-based, and 

15 which ones are water-based, you know. So you can 

16 get it from the accredited certifiers to begin 

17 with.

18 But from personal experience, we have 

19 a certified organic, Blue Fruit Farm in 

20 Minnesota. So many consumers ate our organic 

21 berries and they say we always buy organic, but 

22 we've never had such flavorful, such rich flavor, 
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1 even though we buy and I won't say the brand 

2 names, but big brands of USDA-certified organic 

3 blueberries.

4 That's where I think we need to look 

5 at nutrient density comparisons. These aren't 

6 the same. When you grow things in healthy, 

7 biological soil, they're going to have much 

8 richer bioflavonoids. We've seen research from 

9 University of California, ten-year research 

10 looking at conventional versus organic, and 

11 showing that the levels of bioflavonoids as well 

12 as vitamins and minerals just keep going up in 

13 healthy soil, whereas they stay flat when they're 

14 on a conventional nutrient path.

15 And so I think we need to take that 

16 type of research and compare soil-based organic 

17 versus water-based organic. We do need the data.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: all right. Well, 

19 we appreciate your comments.

20 MR. RIDDLE: Thank you.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

22 MR. RIDDLE: Have a good time next 
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1 week.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate it. 

3 So we've got this one in the bag. Thank you 

4 everybody for sticking with us. We're going to 

5 do this again on Thursday, same time, same place. 

6 Please join us. On Thursday we're going to get 

7 kicked off with Garth Kahl, followed by Sam 

8 Welsch and then Laura Holm. So we're excited to 

9 see you there.

10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

11 went off the record at 6:32 p.m.)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

SPRING 2023 MEETING

+ + + + +

PUBLIC COMMENT WEBINAR

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

APRIL 20, 2023

+ + + + +

The Board met via Videoconference, 

at 12:00 p.m. EDT, Nathan Powell-Palm, Chair, 

presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT

NATHAN POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

AMY BRUCH, Secretary

BRIAN CALDWELL

JERRY D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

NATE LEWIS

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

FRANKLIN QUARCOO

KYLA SMITH

WOOD TURNER
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STAFF PRESENT

DR. JENNIFER TUCKER, Deputy Administrator, 

Agricultural Marketing Service (AMS); 

Designated Federal Official

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee

Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

ERIN HEALY, Director, Standards Division

ANDREA HOLM, Agricultural Marketing Specialist
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 12:05 p.m.

3 DR. TUCKER: I'm Jenny Tucker, Deputy 

4 Administrator of the National Organic Program. I 

5 want to welcome everyone back, so welcome to all 

6 of our Board Members and our audience. Thanks 

7 for returning to the second day of public 

8 comments where we are now reconvening here.

9 We, as I mentioned the very first day, 

10 continue to be very, very grateful for everyone's 

11 ability to engage in these sessions. It really 

12 does help us connect through both time and space.

13 And I, again, want to welcome our two 

14 new Board members, Franklin Quarcoo from Tuskegee 

15 University in Alabama and Nate Lewis from 

16 Washington Farmland Trust in Washington State.

17 They, again, just recently joined. 

18 So, again, we want to give them a very warm 

19 welcome, warm Zoom welcome.

20 To our public commenters, thank you 

21 for engaging in the process with us. And thank 

22 you to our audience. You are a vital part of 
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1 witnessing this event together in the public

2 space and the public sphere.

3 This webinar continues our two days of 

4 public webinars this week. We'll convene in 

5 person in Atlanta, Georgia next week. We plan to 

6 live stream that meeting as well as we did last 

7 fall.

8 Meeting access information for all 

9 meeting segments is posted on the NOSB meeting 

10 page on the USDA website. And transcripts for 

11 all segments will be posted once completed.

12 This meeting, like all other meetings 

13 of the National Organic Standards Board will be 

14 run based on the Federal Advisory Committee Act 

15 and the Board's Policy and Procedures Manual.

16 So, I am the Designated Federal 

17 Officer for all meeting segments. And Nate 

18 Powell-Palm, our Board Chair will be taking the 

19 helm again today.

20 We remind everyone that in an open, 

21 transparent process, mutual respect is critical.

22 We ask you in advance to avoid 
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1 personal attacks and disparagement. This extends 

2 also to any chats that you share.

3 So, even if you disagree with a 

4 speaker's position, in a public process, everyone 

5 deserves the same respect and grace you would 

6 want for yourself.

7 I want to, again, thank the National 

8 Organic Program team. You guys are amazing. I 

9 was very particularly impressed on Tuesday when 

10 we did have the Zoom-bombers. We haven't had 

11 that happen which is really remarkable given how 

12 public this meeting is.

13 And so, the team's ability to problem 

14 solve in the background while also continuing to 

15 run the meeting is truly impressive.

16 And this team works like that every 

17 day. They are problem solvers. They are 

18 achievers and, often, overachievers. And I'm 

19 very, very grateful for all of their work.

20 There have been many, many successes 

21 from the program over the past six months since 

22 we convened in California. And the team that's 
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1 supporting you as a community today is, in large 

2 part, responsible for many of those successes.

3 So, I want to thank them for their 

4 work.

5 So, Michelle Arsenault, who you all 

6 know well, Jared Clark, Andrea Holm, Joanna 

7 Miranda, and our new Standards Director, Erin 

8 Healy. We also have a new Assistant Director of 

9 Standards who I introduced last time, Fred David.

10 And so, I would appreciate if we could 

11 all give the NOP team a big round of applause. 

12 They are a huge part of getting us here.

13 And a huge round applause for the 

14 Board itself, who listens constructively and 

15 thoughtfully, and is a incredibly collaborative 

16 group.

17 So, I'm going to hand the mic back to 

18 Michelle who will do a roll call of NOSB Members 

19 and NOP staff.

20 So, thanks so much. Oh, I guess she's 

21 not doing NOP staff because I just did that, 

22 right? 
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1 But Michelle, take it from here.

2 MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you, Jenny.

3 Thank you, I'm glad you reiterated 

4 that, actually.

5 All right, you guys, I'm not on 

6 camera. I have the speaker timer on camera now. 

7 So, I will still call roll.

8 Nate Powell-Palm?

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Present. Hello, 

10 hello.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome.

12 Mindee Jeffrey?

13 MEMBER JOHNSON: Colored pens ready to 

14 go.

15 MS. ARSENAULT: Excellent.

16 Amy Bruch?

17 MEMBER BRUCH: I'm here.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Amy.

19 Brian Caldwell?

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Here. Hi,

21 everybody.

22 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Brian.
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1 Jerry D'Amore?

2 MEMBER D'AMORE: Good day, here as 

3 well.

4 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome, Jerry.

5 Carolyn Dimitri?

6 MEMBER DIMITRI: Hi, everyone, good 

7 afternoon.

8 MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Carolyn.

9 Kim Huseman?

10 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hello.

11 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello, Kim.

12 Allison Johnson?

13 MEMBER JOHNSON: Here, good morning.

14 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome, Allison.

15 Kyla Smith?

16 MEMBER SMITH: Hi, everybody, I'm 

17 here.

18 MS. ARSENAULT: Hey Kyla.

19 Nate Lewis?

20 MEMBER LEWIS: Present from the 

21 Northwest.

22 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome, Nate.
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1 Dilip Nandwani?

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning, all.

3 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Dilip.

4 Logan Petrey?

5 MEMBER PETREY: I'm here, good 

6 afternoon.

7 MS. ARSENAULT: Hello, Logan.

8 Franklin Quarcoo?

9 MEMBER QUARCOO: Present.

10 MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome, Franklin.

11 Wood Turner?

12 MEMBER TURNER: Here, good morning.

13 MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Wood.

14 And I believe Javier Zamora won't be 

15 with us today.

16 So, for transcription purposes, we'll 

17 mark Javier absent.

18 I'm waiting for him to yell out, just 

19 in case.

20 (No response.)

21 MS. ARSENAULT: Nope, okay. All 

22 right, and as Jenny said, she already introduced 
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1 all of the NOP staff so I won't do that again.

2 Now, I'm going to hand off the mic to 

3 Nate Powell-Palm, Chair of the National Organic 

4 Standards Board.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

6 you, Michelle, and welcome back, everybody.

7 Just to get kicked off here, I really 

8 wanted to say thank you to everybody, the Board, 

9 NOP staff, the whole community for letting us run 

10 a little long on Tuesday, but it was worth it. 

11 Those were some great conversations. I'm really 

12 looking forward to having similar conversations 

13 today.

14 For brevity, I will remind my fellow 

15 Board Members, if you can keep it to questions as 

16 opposed to comments, that will save some time. 

17 But don't hold back. That was a really nice 

18 conversation and I hope we get to have that again 

19 today.

20 We do have a slide for our Policy and 

21 Procedures Manual about public comments.

22 All speakers who will be recognized 
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1 signed up during the registration period. 

2 Persons must give their names and affiliations 

3 for the record at the beginning of the public 

4 comment.

5 So, when I call on you, I'll state 

6 your name, but if you would state your 

7 affiliation, that'd be great.

8 Proxy speakers are not permitted.

9 Individuals providing public comment 

10 shall refrain from making any personal attacks or 

11 remarks that might impugn the character of any 

12 individual.

13 Members of the public are asked to 

14 define clearly and succinctly the issues they 

15 wish to present before the Board. This will give 

16 NOSB Members a comprehensive understanding of the 

17 speaker's concerns.

18 I'll call on speaks in the order of 

19 the schedule and will announce the next person or 

20 two so they can prepare.

21 Please remember to state your name and 

22 affiliation and then we'll start the timer.
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1 Board Members will indicate to me if 

2 they have a question and I will call on them. 

3 Only NOSB Members are allowed to ask questions.

4 So, with that, our first speaker today 

5 is going to be Garth Kahl followed by Sam Welsch 

6 and then Laura Holm.

7 Garth, the floor is yours.

8 MR. KAHL: Hello, good day. Thank you 

9 for your service. Thank you NOP staff.

10 I represent the Organic Integrity 

11 Cooperative Guild. The Organic Integrity 

12 Cooperative Guild, OICG, is a cooperative of 

13 organic inspectors, reviewers, and consultants, 

14 all of whom either own or work on certified 

15 organic farms.

16 And we have come together to further 

17 professionalism in the organic industry and 

18 promote dynamic growing and trustworthy organic 

19 marketplace.

20 Next slide, please?

21 So, CACS, we need clear and distinct 

22 locations and fields for performing unannounced 
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1 inspection. This is the perfect example on 

2 calling out this certifier because they do a 

3 great job.

4 This is a perfect example of what we 

5 can do at the beginning on an OSP parcel 

6 document. You'll see that they ask for not only 

7 the GPS coordinates, but they also ask for 

8 township and range.

9 This is critical because plain people 

10 may not have access to GPS or a smartphone. They 

11 certainly can go to their county and get a 

12 township and range.

13 Next slide, please?

14 With that township and range, then 

15 anybody, myself or someone in the certification 

16 community, can use a free document, convert 

17 township and range to GPS coordinates.

18 Here's what another outstanding CB can 

19 do with that information.

20 So, you can see there, I can go, if 

21 I'm the inspector, I can go directly to the dairy 

22 in question. I can hop on a four-wheeler. I can 
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1 drive around the fields.

2 If there's a problem, I can 

3 immediately pull out my smartphone, locate where 

4 I am, and describe in the report where the issue 

5 is.

6 This kind of program also includes the 

7 shape of the fields and the area.

8 Next slide, please?

9 Here is an example of what me, a 

10 simple, humble organic inspector can do with free 

11 software, i.e., Google or Pro. I can take those 

12 GPS coordinates, I can make a map. I can draw a 

13 map with my smartphone or a tablet. I can 

14 describe to the certifier exactly where an issue 

15 is and I can compare that field area to what's in 

16 the OSP.

17 So, great way to improve organic 

18 integrity without a lot of lift.

19 Next slide, please?

20 Okay, so, you're close, you're almost 

21 here. Let's get this ion exchange issue 

22 resolved.
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1 Ion exchange resins do not need to be 

2 listed. The recharge materials are already 

3 listed.

4 As you can see, this is the kind of 

5 document that we see at every organic inspection. 

6 We can review this. We can see the specific 

7 name brand and the FDA statement verifying that 

8 it is, indeed, compliant. It's been reviewed.

9 It's not a heavy lift, let's get it 

10 done.

11 And I would refer you also to Adam 

12 from QAI's comments on Tuesday.

13 Last slide, please?

14 Okay, so, this basically says it all, 

15 climate smart and sunset. Keep all the tools in 

16 the toolbox. And yes, we could, even though it's 

17 an anathema, have organic Twinkies. Why not? 

18 Let's push the climate smart benefit of organic 

19 agriculture, even if it includes organic 

20 Twinkies.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

22 much for your comments.
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1 I'm going to sit here and really 

2 imagine eating an organic Twinkie now. And I 

3 want us all to let our worlds be so large.

4 Amy has a question for you to get 

5 kicked off.

6 Please go ahead, Amy.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you for your 

8 public comments and for attending our session, 

9 starting us off here.

10 I really appreciate your information, 

11 it was really helpful. We all think organic --

12 we all refer to it as the gold standard.

13 And it was interesting in your written 

14 comments how you mentioned about the Mexican 

15 Organic Standard and how they are not only 

16 tracking, but verifying -- or not only receiving 

17 these coordinates, but verifying these 

18 coordinates and tracking them.

19 Could you speak more on to the Mexican 

20 Organic Standard and how they're able to execute 

21 that across the countryside?

22 Because I'm sure that they run into 
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1 similar situations that we have been hearing 

2 about.

3 MR. KAHL: Yes, absolutely.

4 And actually, Mexico is the perfect 

5 example of why this is so necessary.

6 If you've traveled or worked in 

7 Mexico, addresses are, at best, kind of a 

8 suggestion. So, it may be, you know, 500 meters 

9 past the blue house on the right in terms of a 

10 field description.

11 So, they saw very on when they 

12 implemented their national law, that this was 

13 critical to allow inspectors to verify parcels to 

14 perform unannounced inspections.

15 What they do as a certifier accredited 

16 to the National Organic Standard, the Ley de 

17 Productos Organicos, you have to receive this 

18 information, every parcel as part of the OSP has 

19 to have GPS coordinates.

20 It's tracked, so you have to 

21 demonstrate during your accreditation audit with 

22 the national body, with the Secretariat of 
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1 Agriculture.

2 You, as the certifier, need to show 

3 how you're tracking this field information. And 

4 it actually appears on certificates as well.

5 So, if you look at a certificate that 

6 is issued by a certifier for an operator that's 

7 accredited to the Ley de Productos Organicos, it 

8 will list the specific field information.

9 So, it's just another -- just the way 

10 we would track a name or the products that are 

11 certified, it just tracks these -- they call them 

12 geocodes. But it's basically the way Google 

13 Earth, you know, has digitized latitude and 

14 longitude.

15 It's simple. It works. And again, it 

16 works in Mexico. Anybody with a cheap smartphone 

17 can record this information and/or can look on 

18 with free software, can pull up on their 

19 smartphone and see where they are and see where 

20 they need to get to with Google Maps, for 

21 example.

22 So, it works really well. It hasn't 
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1 been, again, even with impoverished communities, 

2 even with, you know, communities, most people 

3 have a smartphone. They may not have a car, they 

4 may, you know, they may literally still be 

5 farming with oxen, but almost everybody's got a 

6 smartphone.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you for 

8 elaborating more on that.

9 And thanks, also, for sharing how you 

10 are using, from an inspector point of view, the 

11 geocoordinates to then lay out the fields into 

12 GIS type systems.

13 So, thanks, again, appreciate that.

14 MR. KAHL: Yes.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

16 for Garth?

17 I've got one for you, Garth. Do you 

18 feel like there is consistency amongst certifiers 

19 that you've worked with or that you've consulted 

20 with in how they track internally where their 

21 fields are? Do you feel like that you've seen 

22 folks be able to know where all the fields they 
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1 certify are in a consistent format?

2 And if we were, through this document, 

3 just to recommend that we get a consistent format 

4 where they're able to aggregate that data 

5 internally, not necessarily in public facing, 

6 that that would be an asset to the integrity of 

7 our industry.

8 MR. KAHL: And so, and to answer your 

9 first question, no, there is not consistency 

10 across certifiers.

11 Some certifiers don't have this. Some 

12 certifiers literally that I've seen have all 

13 fields tied to a specific address. So, that 

14 might be the home farm.

15 Other certifiers just have, you know, 

16 a rough address that may put you a quarter mile 

17 away or at, you know, the other end of the 

18 section.

19 And then, some certifiers, as I've 

20 shown, are tracking this very closely.

21 I think it is absolutely would be an 

22 improvement to demand some consistency across the 
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1 board with certifiers.

2 As you say, it doesn't need to be 

3 public facing as long as they're tracking it. 

4 And the reality is, you know, everybody's --

5 virtually everybody's got a smartphone. And if 

6 they don't have a smartphone, if they're plain 

7 people, they can get the township and range 

8 information.

9 I don't think it's a heavy lift for 

10 certifiers to do this. And consistency would be 

11 really good.

12 I cannot tell you the number of times 

13 I have basically tried to, you know, compare the 

14 map in the OSP and then open Google Maps on the 

15 other, you know, on the other document, like on 

16 my computer and have the map open and try to 

17 basically find some landmarks in Google Maps 

18 exactly where the farm is far more times than I 

19 care to recount. But it's a very common 

20 occurrence.

21 So, yes, again, it's an easy lift to 

22 really improve organic integrity and to 
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1 facilitate unannounced inspections which is what, 

2 of course, the rule requires.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Fantastic, I 

4 really appreciate that insight from an inspector 

5 point of view.

6 One last question for you, how do we 

7 explode the demand for organic foods?

8 MR. KAHL: Wow, easy question there, 

9 Nate.

10 We -- I think we explode the demand 

11 for organic foods by bringing organic foods to 

12 everywhere the consumer is.

13 So, the consumer is not just at 

14 farmer's markets, they're not just at specialty 

15 shops. They're shopping in Walmart. They're 

16 shopping in Target. They're shopping in 

17 convenient stores. That's the sad reality with 

18 food deserts in this country.

19 I think we explode the organic -- the 

20 demand for organic food by keeping a full 

21 toolkit, by having stable regulatory compliance 

22 so processors don't see changes coming down the 
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1 line all the time.

2 And by basically pushing the climate 

3 benefits or organic food. Organic food means 

4 less dead zone at the mouth of the Mississippi. 

5 It means less carbon footprint in general.

6 If you look at the carbon footprint 

7 for synthetic nitrogen compared to the carbon 

8 footprint of organic, it is vastly lower and it's 

9 even lower when you include long supply chains, 

10 which, obviously, aren't ideal.

11 We should have local organic food 

12 everywhere. But even taking into account global 

13 supply chains, organic foods still beats 

14 conventional, local conventional with synthetic 

15 nitrogen hands down if you're talking about 

16 carbon footprint.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And that's a great 

18 foot to get started off today. We really 

19 appreciate your comments. Thank you so much and 

20 I hope you have a very successful calving season. 

21 It looks like your babies are doing well in that 

22 photo.
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1 So --

2 MR. KAHL: Well, thanks and thanks to 

3 all the NOP staff and the Board Members for all 

4 your work.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, take 

6 care. Thank you.

7 Next up, we have Sam Welsch followed 

8 by Laura Holm and then Gwendolyn Wyard.

9 Sam, the floor is yours. Please state 

10 your affiliation.

11 MR. WELSCH: Hello, I'm with OneCert.

12 I'm going to start by talking about 

13 something just very important, consistency.

14 As you deliberate today, it's 

15 important to remember the purpose of OFPA.

16 One, to establish national standards 

17 governing the marketing of products as 

18 organically produced products.

19 Two, to assure consumers that those 

20 products meet a consistent standard.

21 And three, to facilitate interstate 

22 commerce.
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1 Unfortunately, the assurance that 

2 organic products meet a consistent standard is 

3 not being achieved. Inconsistent implementation 

4 of USDA organic regulations by certification 

5 agencies has two main causes.

6 One, lack of specific regulations, 

7 this includes the absence of regulations USDA 

8 said it would publish by October 2002, such as 

9 apiculture, greenhouse, pet food, mushrooms.

10 It also includes the absence of 

11 regulations for the certification of 

12 non-agricultural substances like yeast and 

13 flavors.

14 There's also the ambiguous or vague 

15 requirements and unclear definitions, that's the 

16 second cause.

17 Another item that's also a big 

18 contributor is inconsistent enforcement by the 

19 USDA which also contributes to the lack of 

20 consistency.

21 I want to mention on ion exchange and 

22 remind you that OFPA, in 6517B requires that each 
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1 substance be listed. The list established under 

2 Subsection A shall contain and itemization by 

3 specific use or application of each synthetic 

4 substance permitted under Subsection C1 or each 

5 natural substance prohibited.

6 The word each is used here means that 

7 each substance must be identified and listed 

8 separately.

9 Ion exchange resin should not be 

10 listed as a collection. They should be listed 

11 individually.

12 Ion exchange is a process that 

13 chemically changes the product that's being 

14 produced.

15 That ion exchange resins and recharged 

16 chemicals are not simple food contact substances. 

17 They're intended to change the organic product.

18 As others have pointed out, actual 

19 food contact substances are intended to have no 

20 effect on the food.

21 Certification of non-agricultural 

22 substances, there are many that are not on the 
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1 list that are still being used as ingredients in 

2 organic products.

3 The value of organic certification is 

4 based on the premise that organic products are 

5 distinct from non-organic products. But 

6 non-agricultural substances are being certified, 

7 it diminishes the value of organic certification.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Appreciate your 

9 comments.

10 Questions for Sam?

11 Allison, please go ahead.

12 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you so much for 

13 your comments, Sam.

14 I am still trying to tease out this 

15 ion exchange issue. My current understanding and 

16 what I think the proposal reflects is that we're 

17 drawing a distinction between the recharged 

18 material which is intended to have this back and 

19 forth interaction with the product and then the 

20 resin that holds it in place.

21 Is your understanding that there is 

22 some chemical or anything other than like a 
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1 contact interaction between the resin itself and 

2 the organic product?

3 MR. WELSCH: Yes, it's my 

4 understanding the resin is what captures the ions 

5 in the products being processed. And it's the 

6 recharged materials then wash that -- those 

7 captured ions out so that the resins are able to 

8 capture more ions in the next round of 

9 processing.

10 MEMBER JOHNSON: So, the resin, in 

11 your mind, by pulling something out of the 

12 product, the resin is having an interaction. But 

13 it's not that the resin is putting something into 

14 the final product, right?

15 MR. WELSCH: Well, it's creating a 

16 chemical reaction. That's why it's called ion 

17 exchange. And ion exchange is a chemical 

18 reaction.

19 So, we're chemically altering the 

20 products that are in there. Sometimes, they're 

21 trying to remove, you know, ions that are in 

22 solution, but other times, they're actually 
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1 altering chemistry of the product that's being 

2 processed.

3 So, it is a -- the ion, you know, 

4 process does, you know, the substances that are 

5 used in ion exchange also degrade over time. So, 

6 they do result in quantities over time starting 

7 to be included in the product that they're 

8 processing.

9 Those things don't last forever. 

10 They're not like a stainless steel food contact 

11 surface, you know, that's good for decades. You 

12 know, these are substances that degrade in use 

13 and they do, you know, so portions of those 

14 resins do end up in the organic products.

15 MEMBER JOHNSON: I see Kyla's hand up 

16 so I bet she has another question. So, I'll 

17 leave it at that.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, Kyla, 

20 please go ahead.

21 MEMBER SMITH: Okay, a couple things.

22 Juice that goes through an ion 
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1 exchange filtration process, when it comes out 

2 the other side is still chemically juice, 

3 correct?

4 MR. WELSCH: Well, it's still juice 

5 but it's not --

6 MEMBER SMITH: Yes.

7 MR. WELSCH: -- the same juice that 

8 went in there. It's --

9 MEMBER SMITH: Okay, and the resin 

10 could not perform its function without the 

11 recharge material. So, the resin itself, the 

12 polymer bead, is not functional without the 

13 recharge. The recharge is what is performing the 

14 action.

15 MR. WELSCH: Yes, but --

16 MEMBER SMITH: Without the recharge, 

17 there is no function.

18 MR. WELSCH: I think the thing should 

19 be looking at is, is this a necessary -- is the 

20 ion exchange necessary for organic processing?

21 There are other filtering aids already 

22 listed on the national list that are also doing 
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1 the same thing that the ion exchange process 

2 does.

3 And we've had operations using those 

4 processes in substances that are on the national 

5 list to achieve the, you know, purposes of 

6 filtration and clarification that is cheaper to 

7 do with ion exchange but without the risk of 

8 contributing ion exchange resin and recharge 

9 chemicals to the products that are being 

10 processed.

11 MEMBER SMITH: That was not the 

12 mandate that the NOP tasked us with. The mandate 

13 was to decide whether or not ion exchange or the 

14 components thereof needed to be on the national 

15 list.

16 Thanks.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

18 ahead.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Sam, hi, thanks for 

20 your time today. I really appreciate it.

21 I'm going to switch gears, you 

22 mentioned consistency. And that is a really 
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1 strong word, and I love it, actually. I think 

2 it's real important. And that's been kind of 

3 something we've taken to task I believe with the 

4 CACS committee with some of our work agenda 

5 items.

6 And I wanted to ask you, from your 

7 certifier background, your thoughts on just --

8 because we have received feedback with this, do 

9 we want to be clear in our recommendations almost 

10 to the point we're getting feedback on the 

11 prescriptive nature or do we want to be less 

12 descriptive?

13 And then, that's, I think, where maybe 

14 consistency can, you know, deviate a little bit.

15 So, what's your thoughts on how much 

16 prescriptive nature we should be aiming for to 

17 get consistency?

18 MR. WELSCH: Well, I think if you're 

19 clear in what you want to achieve, you know, 

20 there are sometimes more than one way, you know, 

21 to get to a destination.

22 So, if the purpose is clear, like as 
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1 Garth was mentioning, clear identification of 

2 each parcel that's being certified organic.

3 GPS is a great tool. He mentioned 

4 the, you know, township and range, the maps that 

5 you get in the U.S. from your farm service 

6 office. You know, those are always to get, you 

7 know, and identify the parcels. And that's what 

8 we want to achieve.

9 It may be that different certifiers 

10 use different types of documents to achieve that 

11 or using all of them in our work.

12 In our international work, we use GPS 

13 because that's more universally available. The 

14 other, you know, the township and range like we 

15 have in the U.S., you know, is not as -- you 

16 know, they don't have similar things in other 

17 countries.

18 So, we use GPS a lot and the maps. 

19 The maps are very important and the Google Maps 

20 are a great tool to identify that.

21 You know, that's something we look at 

22 first if we're having someone who wants to 
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1 certify some operations, especially in growing 

2 groups, we get the GPS coordinates and we want to 

3 see that they're actually close enough physically

4 that it makes sense to certify them as a group, 

5 for example.

6 Or even operations here in the U.S., 

7 we have some that are trying to certify the same 

8 -- as a single farm, operations and have fields 

9 hundreds of miles apart. You know, in our mind, 

10 you know, it's farmers are not traveling that 

11 far. Those are separate operations, even though 

12 they might have the same owner.

13 They're using different equipment, 

14 different workers, you know, the locations can be 

15 quite different.

16 So, we try to look at this in as fine 

17 a grain as possible and make sure we clearly know 

18 what's being certified.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Sam, thanks 

20 for providing the international examples also. I 

21 appreciate that.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla has a 
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1 question for you.

2 MEMBER SMITH: Sorry, going back to 

3 resins.

4 You were starting to talk about 

5 degradation and I just wanted to know if you had 

6 any data that supported the claim that the resin 

7 itself degrades and ends up in the product? And 

8 if so, if you could please send that to Michelle?

9 Because we've had -- we've seen no 

10 such data to support that.

11 MR. WELSCH: Well, I'm not the 

12 scientist on that, but I have talked to those who 

13 deal with these and I don't know why the data 

14 hasn't been made available to you, but these 

15 things do degrade and they get replaced which is 

16 a good indication of -- that it's not maintaining 

17 its integrity.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay, thank you, 

19 Sam, for fielding all those questions in several 

20 different categories.

21 I have just one sort of just bigger 

22 picture question for you. And that's, when we 
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1 think about, going back to my question for Garth, 

2 how to drive demand, availability of organic 

3 food?

4 Do you see organic as the gold 

5 standard for clean food? And from that, do you 

6 think that if we can have something in the 

7 toolbox that's going to make sure that when a mom 

8 in a grocery store is looking for the right baby 

9 food, she knows that there is going to be a 

10 guarantee of cleanliness because there's all of 

11 the tools in the toolbox for organic processors 

12 like ion exchange?

13 Or do we want to set a standard of 

14 purity that limits that toolbox?

15 Where do you -- how do you think that 

16 should be compromised and explored?

17 MR. WELSCH: Well, in my view, and I 

18 was an organic consumer for decades before 

19 organic certification, you know, was even a 

20 thing.

21 So, it's important to me, personally, 

22 to have as much organic food available as 
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1 possible, preferably local food. But that's not 

2 always possible and we do certify a lot of food 

3 that gets traded in international markets.

4 I think the value of organic 

5 certifications, you said people want pure food. 

6 They want something that's wholesome and healthy, 

7 you know, it's got that strong connection.

8 When you start to include processes 

9 and substances that are the same as conventional 

10 like the substances created with ion exchange, I 

11 think you diminish the value of organic.

12 And it gets its value because it's 

13 different than conventional. And if we try to, 

14 you know, change the regulations so that every 

15 conceivable product that can be made 

16 conventionally can also be made organic, I think 

17 it really loses its value. And it's not what 

18 consumers want.

19 I always look for whole foods, 

20 minimally processed because that's healthier for 

21 us.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'll follow up 
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1 with one quick question. Do you think this 

2 entire debate is sort of about carrying a purity 

3 assessment for what we hope or think organic 

4 should be rather than the actual science? Or are 

5 we thinking that we're going to see degradation 

6 or loss of product, loss of resins into the food?

7 Is this somewhat of a higher debate 

8 that we're just couching into this discussion 

9 that we don't want processed foods in organic?

10 MR. WELSCH: No, I think there's a 

11 genuine concern that these things do degrade, you 

12 know, just like there's concerns about the 

13 plastics we use whether it's in production or in 

14 packaging.

15 You know, we have found that there are 

16 certainly types of plastics that contribute 

17 substances to the foods that we don't want to be 

18 eating and consuming.

19 So, those are issues and I think it's 

20 important for organic to take a -- and I don't 

21 see anything wrong with a pure approach. We want 

22 our food to be pure.
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1 I remember when I first started 

2 beekeeping 50-some odd years ago. You wanted to 

3 have pure honey because it had been adulterated.

4 And so, having the word pure on there 

5 was meaningful. And I think the same thing is 

6 true for organic. It should be pure food, it 

7 should not be adulterated with the substances 

8 used in processing.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I appreciate your 

10 comments today. Thank you.

11 Next up, we have Laura Holm followed 

12 by Gwendolyn Wyard, and then, Angela Schriver.

13 Laura, when you're ready, the floor is 

14 yours. Please state your affiliation.

15 MS. HOLM: Hello, I'm Laura Holm, 

16 legislative and farm policy associate of the 

17 Organic Trade Association.

18 Thank you for the opportunity to 

19 provide comments on organic and climate smart 

20 agriculture.

21 OTA is the membership based business 

22 association for organic agriculture and products 
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1 in North America. We are the leading voice for 

2 promoting and protecting organic trade in the

3 United States representing organic businesses 

4 across all sectors in all 50 states.

5 Organic is the original climate smart 

6 commercial agriculture and it is a system rooted 

7 in indigenous cultivation practices.

8 OTA celebrates the compliance 

9 accreditation and certification subcommittee's 

10 continued advocacy that USDA fully recognize the 

11 impact of organic. And we support the 

12 subcommittee's proposal, organic is climate smart 

13 agriculture.

14 Organic producers should be 

15 automatically recognized as climate smart and 

16 receive default eligibility for all climate smart 

17 funding and opportunities administered by the 

18 USDA.

19 Organic farmers are federally required 

20 to maintain or improve the nature resources of 

21 their operations, including soil and water 

22 quality.
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1 Organic farmers must maintain or 

2 improve soil health.

3 Organic farmers must implement tillage 

4 and cultivation practices that maintain or 

5 improve the physical, chemical, and biological 

6 condition of soil and minimize soil erosion.

7 Organic farmers must manage crop 

8 nutrients and soil fertility through rotations, 

9 cover crops, and the application of plant and 

10 animal materials.

11 Organic farmers must implement a crop 

12 rotation, often cover crops, green manure crops, 

13 and cash crops that maintains or improves soil 

14 organic matter.

15 These requirements are in the organic 

16 regulations.

17 The climate smart techniques 

18 recognized by NRCS practically mirror the organic 

19 regulations and can be found in organic system 

20 plans across the country.

21 Organic systems have the power to 

22 reverse the effects of climate change while 
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1 increasing farm resilience in the face of 

2 droughts and floods.

3 We are optimistic that USDA will 

4 increase their support of organic farming as the 

5 climate, economic, and health benefits of organic 

6 systems are continuously revealed.

7 On behalf of our members across the 

8 supply chain and the country, OTA thanks the 

9 National Organic Standards Board for your 

10 commitment to furthering organic agriculture.

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

13 comments.

14 Questions from the Board for Laura?

15 (No response.)

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we 

17 appreciate, thank you for joining us.

18 MS. HOLM: Thank you.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

20 Gwendolyn Wyard followed by Angela Schriver, and 

21 then, Scott Myers.

22 Gwendolyn, please state your 
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1 affiliation and the floor is yours.

2 MS. WYARD: I'm going to do a quick 

3 sound check, yet, don't start that timer. All 

4 good? All right.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All good.

6 MS. WYARD: Okay, getting myself 

7 positioned here, and one, two, three, go.

8 All right, good morning, NOSB Members. 

9 My name is Gwendolyn Wyard. I'm vice president 

10 of regulatory and technical affairs for the 

11 Organic Trade Association.

12 And I want to thank you for this 

13 opportunity. We appreciate you and we want to 

14 welcome the new members, Mr. Nate Lewis, and Dr. 

15 Franklin Quarcoo.

16 I'm really excited to see everyone in 

17 Atlanta next week.

18 All right, you have our written 

19 comments on organic is climate smart. Thank so 

20 much, Laura Holm, natural flavors up for sunset 

21 and ion exchange resins.

22 So, today, I will touch on the latter 
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1 two.

2 We support the continued listing of 

3 natural flavors on the national list at 605(a). 

4 Our goal, however, is to fuel the successful 

5 growth development and use of organic flavors.

6 OTA was the petitioner of the 

7 annotation change that requires the use of 

8 organic flavors when they're commercially 

9 available. 

10 So, until December 2019 when that 

11 ruling went into effect, there was no requirement 

12 to use organic flavors, despite the growing 

13 availability in the marketplace.

14 We acknowledge that the sunset 

15 evaluation for natural flavors is challenging 

16 because the listing literally covers thousands of 

17 distinctly different types of flavors ranging 

18 from agricultural to non-agricultural.

19 So, in our comments, we have provided 

20 a flavor types 101 that should help you navigate 

21 this very complex flavor map.

22 There is an extensive history on why 
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1 NOSB decided to keep flavors on 605 and 

2 collectively assign commercial availability to 

3 them all.

4 And there is a very good reason for 

5 why we should keep the listing as is because it 

6 would be very impractical to try to list every 

7 flavor on the national list.

8 So, to get to the point, the 

9 requirement to use organic flavors is still 

10 relatively new. And while the availability of 

11 organic flavors is good, it's certainly not good 

12 enough across all flavor categories and in all 

13 food and beverage situations to remove the 

14 listing all together.

15 So, as we've stated in our written 

16 comments, our ability to succeed in terms of 

17 growing the organic flavors sector comes with 

18 responsibility that relies heavily on robust and 

19 well documented commercial search efforts by 

20 industry, us, and robust and consistent review by 

21 the certifiers and oversight from the NOP.

22 So, for this reason, OTA and the 
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1 Accredited Certifiers Association have developed 

2 guidance on vest practices for sourcing and 

3 reviewing flavors for compliance.

4 They're two separate documents. They 

5 were developed to help ensure a rigorous and 

6 consistent approach to determining commercial 

7 availability.

8 We think they're excellent and they're 

9 complimentary. But we also think they would be 

10 furthered if NOSB and/or NOP could elevate their 

11 visibility through a formal adoption process.

12 Last but not least, OTA strongly 

13 supports the subcommittee's proposal on ion 

14 exchange resins.

15 We've carried out a thorough review 

16 for three and a half years now since NOP sent the 

17 memo in August of 2019, complete with extensive 

18 stakeholder feedback and a very comprehensive 

19 technical review.

20 We believe you have an obligation to 

21 complete your recommendations to NOP at this 

22 spring meeting so the program can address 
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1 inconsistencies between certifiers and provide 

2 greater certainty to organic businesses.

3 Thank you.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate your 

5 comments.

6 Questions for Gwen?

7 Kyla, please go ahead followed by 

8 Logan.

9 MEMBER SMITH: Hi, Gwendolyn, thanks 

10 for your comments.

11 My question is related to the ion 

12 resin composition. There was some questions 

13 about that yesterday. And I wasn't sure if you 

14 could speak to that because I know you have 

15 talked about that in your written comments.

16 MS. WYARD: Sure, absolutely, I'll do 

17 my best.

18 So, resins, resin composition, there's 

19 a lot we know about the resins, so I want to 

20 start by saying I, you know, I kind of heard 

21 reference to these novel resins and we don't know 

22 much about resins.
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1 But we actually know a lot about 

2 resins and, while there are many different 

3 variations of the resins, they are mostly, like 

4 90 percent of the resins that are out there, they 

5 are what we refer to as copolymer or a 

6 polystyrene, a cross-linked polystyrene.

7 So, what that means is that this 

8 resin, this little, itty-bitty, tiny little 

9 plastic bead, about 90 percent of it is a styrene 

10 that gets cross-linked, polymerized with 

11 divinylbenzene. So, those are the two components 

12 and that cross-linking, that polymerization is 

13 done to make them tough little beads and make 

14 then totally insoluble.

15 So, then, there is a covalently-bonded 

16 functional site that's put on to this backbone, 

17 right, this cross-linked backbone.

18 And it's that functional site, that's 

19 where the exchange occurs. That functional site 

20 is charged.

21 So, that's your basic makeup of about 

22 90 percent of the resins that are out there.
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1 There are some that use acrylic 

2 instead of the styrene. But that's pretty much 

3 what you're looking at.

4 Now, how they start to differ is that 

5 functional site and whether it's a anion or 

6 cation. Whether it is a positive charge or a 

7 negative charge, depending on the charge that 

8 you're trying to take out of the product that's 

9 being treated.

10 So, if you're trying to take arsenic

11 out, that's a negatively charged ion, so you're 

12 going to have an anion that's going to want to 

13 capture that arsenic and it's going to replace it 

14 with a different negative ion.

15 That replacing, that negative ion that 

16 goes into the juice, that's the ion that needs to 

17 be on the national list. That's the recharge 

18 material.

19 That that functional site, that is 

20 covalently-bonded to the resin. It does not go 

21 into the product. It stays there. It does come 

22 with a ion that has to get replaced, but that's 
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1 what needs to be on the national list.

2 So, that's essentially what we're 

3 looking at are these little polymer, tiny, tiny, 

4 tiny little plastic beads.

5 MEMBER SMITH: Thank you.

6 I'll let some other people go and I 

7 might have a follow up.

8 Thanks.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

10 Please go ahead, Logan.

11 MEMBER PETREY: Hi, thank you. And 

12 thank you for all of the information on flavors. 

13 If it weren't complicated enough, there's 

14 definitely a lot there.

15 So, just a couple questions for you. 

16 I know that you said there were some products I 

17 saw that in the fall, you're going to have an 

18 update survey of what it's -- I guess the 

19 difference, maybe, the progress that's been made 

20 over the last few years. Is that correct?

21 MS. WYARD: That's correct, yes. I 

22 think that it's due. You know, when we put the 
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1 petition together, that was in 2014. Everything 

2 went through in 2018, then it was effective in 

3 2019.

4 So, data from 2014 is getting a little 

5 old. And in that data that we put into the 

6 petition, OTA worked with the ACAs. And so, we

7 used the ACAs database, all the information that 

8 we had to look at all of the flavors across the 

9 board, how many were certified organic.

10 You know, we could even drill down, 

11 you know, a little bit further.

12 But I think, you know, unfortunately, 

13 we don't have that data here for this spring 

14 meeting. But I think that that would be a great 

15 effort.

16 So, we can just get an idea to see, 

17 you know, how we're progressing with the growth 

18 and speed requirement in 2019 to use organic went 

19 into place.

20 MEMBER PETREY: Right, do you think 

21 that it'll be able to show not just growth in 

22 maybe the industry, but growth like if more 
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1 people are using organic, is the percentage 

2 better?

3 Do you think that it'll be able to 

4 show that, that they're relying on more organics, 

5 not just that more is used, maybe there's more 

6 business, you know, available and the percentage 

7 is the same?

8 But do you think the data will be able 

9 to show that there's been more reliance on 

10 organic versus the natural flavoring?

11 MS. WYARD: We'll have to look at that 

12 and see what the comparison would be because you 

13 can see the actual, you know, growth in the 

14 availability of organic flavors. And then, 

15 there's the use, right?

16 And so, that's where, and I don't 

17 know, Kyla might be able to jump in on this, but 

18 you see with a lot of the comments that you'll 

19 receive on sunset materials from certifiers, they 

20 can, you know, use their systems to say, we have 

21 X number clients that are using, you know, 

22 percentage, et cetera, et cetera.
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1 So, you know, we're going to have to 

2 be able to make sure that we collected that data 

3 back in 2014 and have something to compare it to.

4 But, you know, Kyla, maybe you -- I'm 

5 going to have to like bring the question back to 

6 you, but in terms of what certifiers are capable 

7 of doing in terms of, you know, monitoring and 

8 measuring an increase in the use of organic 

9 flavors.

10 It would be similar to measuring an 

11 increase in the use of organic seed, right, over 

12 time and see the sort of continuous improvement 

13 is there.

14 Look at me, I'm asking questions.

15 MEMBER PETREY: Yes, I can see Kyla's 

16 head going back and forth. I think I've got an 

17 idea of what that is.

18 MEMBER SMITH: We're going to try to 

19 do that, Logan. We're going to try to do that.

20 MS. WYARD: Okay, sure.

21 And then, sorry, just another one, so, 

22 if we can eventually get to where flavors are 
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1 organic, in your comments, you mentioned that 

2 like flavor isolates are not going to be 

3 organically produced or, you know, there's I 

4 guess some other flavors.

5 Would you recommend those being 

6 petitioned on there as synthetic sources that, 

7 you know, kind of segregating the flavors out or 

8 being able to break that down to where we can 

9 really, I guess, shrink the flavor section if 

10 we're able to get to the organic side?

11 MS. WYARD: I'd like to see a day 

12 where we could reconvene the task force, kind of 

13 similar to what we did and give another go at 

14 trying to parse out and say, okay, here are all 

15 these agricultural, truly, you know, simple, 

16 agricultural flavors, the extracts, the essential 

17 oils, and we're good.

18 We've got, you know, organic 

19 availability.

20 But then, when it gets to these 

21 isolates, maybe that, you know, we're not quite 

22 there yet, but we can start to separate out those 
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1 isolates and say, you know, these isolates here, 

2 they're non-agricultural. Like they should 

3 always be on 605, you're never going to be able 

4 to get an organic form.

5 But some of these other isolates that 

6 go through a number of steps, they're coming from 

7 a natural, as long as it's an agricultural 

8 source. Right?

9 They're going through multiple 

10 mechanical, physical, fermentation, isolation, 

11 you know, a little bit harder, but you could get 

12 there.

13 So, I'd like to imagine that we're 

14 going to have to do a kind of a categorization at 

15 some point to be able figure out a way to say, 

16 for these low hanging fruit, right, extracts, the 

17 essentials oils, you have to use organic. And 

18 then, we're still working on these others.

19 MEMBER PETREY: Right. And I'm sorry, 

20 last question. I think you're the only flavor 

21 commenter.

22 MS. WYARD: I love flavors.
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1 MEMBER PETREY: Do you see any 

2 questions that we missed on the sunset that you 

3 think would be beneficial for us to gather from 

4 our stakeholders?

5 MS. WYARD: Gosh, I think that -- no, 

6 I think those are actually the right appropriate 

7 questions.

8 You know, I'd like to see industry 

9 doing a better job of, you know, getting out 

10 there with more information about the organic 

11 flavors that they're -- that are available.

12 So, you know, for whatever that's 

13 worth.

14 MEMBER PETREY: Okay, thank you so 

15 much for your time, appreciate it.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison, please go 

17 ahead.

18 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks, Gwendolyn.

19 It's really helpful to hear your 

20 specific explanation about the resin structure.

21 And I think the question that I'm 

22 wrestling with is, I'm convinced that the resin 
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1 is not intended to have like a chemical 

2 interaction with the handled product. I 

3 understand that that's the recharge material.

4 What I do worry about is whether 

5 there's some potential to choose a better 

6 material for the resin and whether that's 

7 something we can be incentivizing or otherwise 

8 influencing through this decision.

9 So, I'm curious if you have much 

10 knowledge about -- you mentioned a few different 

11 compositions of resins -- if there are merits to 

12 some over others as far as food safety or risk of 

13 -- I think we're using -- various people are 

14 using words in similar ways to mean different 

15 things, but the analogous risk to some plastic 

16 materials, whether it is actually a chemical 

17 leaching or like over time a breakdown of a 

18 material in a way that is not intended to be the 

19 functional use of that material?

20 Curious if you can speak to any more 

21 information you have about the resins and whether 

22 there's some merit to scrutinizing them so that 
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1 one might be chosen over another?

2 MS. WYARD: Well, I think, you know, 

3 as I mentioned, they are -- most of them are 

4 pretty much the same, right? The differences 

5 comes down to, you know, how much cross-linking 

6 takes place because that also determines how 

7 porous the resins are.

8 And so, depending on the type of, you 

9 know, liquid that you're working with, whether 

10 that's water, whether it's something that more 

11 thick like syrup.

12 But, you know, there's not a lot of 

13 choice when it comes to just that basic 

14 structure. Like I said, that basic structure, 

15 it's a tough little bugger. It is totally 

16 insoluble and really that gets to the 

17 maintenance, the, you know, how these resins are 

18 taken care of in storage, in handling, and then, 

19 of course, in the processing.

20 And that's where, you know, we moved 

21 to the, I think the recommendation where it does 

22 the right job of, you know, this is something 
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1 that is part of the inspection. This is part of 

2 the certification process that's looking at 

3 contamination prevention.

4 You know, we're moving now away from 

5 whether something should be on the list or not to 

6 discussion around plastic and leaching and 

7 migration. Right? And I think that we're all in 

8 agreement with environmental contamination and 

9 the more we learn about PFAS that, you know, we 

10 want to continue to do a better job, you know, 

11 avoiding the types of plastics and materials that 

12 are going to, you know, get into our food system 

13 and impact our health.

14 I think that maintenance is absolutely 

15 critical to when we talk about, you know, 

16 degradation of the resins, nobody wants that. 

17 Primarily, the processor doesn't want that 

18 because the minute those resins start to degrade, 

19 they start to become ineffective and it's an 

20 extremely expensive process.

21 So, this is a whole process that's 

22 about removing impurities, and the last thing 
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1 anybody wants to do is introduce a new impurity. 

2 They want this to be like, you know, clean, like 

3 well working, perfect system.

4 And so, the health of that resin is 

5 critical. Once they start to degrade, they don't 

6 use them. And when they start to degrade, before 

7 they start, you know, falling apart, you know, or 

8 leaching or migrating into the product, they 

9 start losing their effectiveness.

10 There's a bunch of signs that, you 

11 know, you're going to -- you're not going to be 

12 using that resin when it gets to the point where 

13 it's, you know, starting to breakdown and 

14 actually get into the product. That's just --

15 that doesn't happen.

16 So, what I will say, though, is that 

17 the process for applying to get an approved food 

18 contact substance goes through a very rigorous 

19 review.

20 And FDA is asking for all sorts of 

21 testing data and information to analyze exactly 

22 what you're asking about. They have a 
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1 requirement to submit all sorts of chemistry and 

2 toxicological information to analyze what the 

3 potential migration could be, might be, has been, 

4 possibly could be again, on these resins.

5 And they have to meet various 

6 parameters to ensure that these things aren't 

7 going to migrate into the product.

8 And as I've gone through and I've 

9 looked at all of the resins that have been 

10 approved by FDA, consistently, in every single 

11 case, each one says that there's no expectation 

12 that these resins would get into the food 

13 product.

14 They're looking more at how they're 

15 disposing of the impurities, the arsenic that's 

16 being taken out of the product. They're looking 

17 at all other types of manufacturing 

18 considerations of where environmental 

19 contamination would occur.

20 But the levels, I think if you were to 

21 test, it would be non-detectable. I mean, I 

22 don't even know where you would go like, are you 
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1 talking about zero tolerance or, you know, what 

2 those detection levels would be? But I think 

3 right now what we're finding in terms of the 

4 research that's being done and what's being 

5 submitted for those approvals is that it's 

6 non-detect.

7 So, that is being done. I think 

8 there's a lot that we need to -- we've got to 

9 look to FDA and that 120-day approval process 

10 that they go through with their panel of experts 

11 to determine what the safety is of these resins.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

13 ahead.

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: Gwendolyn, thanks so 

15 much for all your comments and I think this 

16 really helps to clarify and elucidate some 

17 things.

18 But I'm wondering if there -- if say, 

19 90 percent of the resins are basically one 

20 structural unit, one type of material, and 

21 there's probably some, you know, a few more in 

22 that last 10 percent, but it sounds like there's 
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1 not really that many of them.

2 So, why not just put them right 

3 through the sunset review process and if they're 

4 real safe and everything, seems like they'd zip 

5 through and be one of our no-brainers, and why 

6 not just do that?

7 MS. WYARD: So, there's many, many 

8 variations just in terms of the amount of 

9 cross-linking that's done and the charge groups. 

10 Right?

11 When I say, you know, they have a 

12 functional group side, they're a cation or an 

13 anion, you might have 20 different cation forms 

14 and another 20. 

15 So, it's not that there's just three 

16 or four resins out there, it's that there are a 

17 couple, you know, the primary structure that's 

18 used, that backbone doesn't vary that much, the 

19 backbone itself.

20 But then, you have lots and lots of 

21 variations.

22 So, I think --
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1 MEMBER CALDWELL: Just question to 

2 follow up on that, but I thought that the 

3 variation would be the recharge materials, not 

4 the actual, you know, background structure.

5 MS. WYARD: Well, the --

6 MEMBER CALDWELL: I mean, they're the 

7 ones that have the anions and cations, the 

8 recharge materials, not the styrene, you know, 

9 material.

10 MS. WYARD: The functional group is a 

11 charge, right, the functional group and it will 

12 have -- they'll use different types of charges to 

13 attract what they're after.

14 So, maybe they'll use an iron oxide 

15 functional group that will attract arsenic. So, 

16 the actual resin itself has a charge and then, 

17 there is an ion, right? So, if it has a positive 

18 charge, there'll be an ion like sodium chloride 

19 will be the ion that's going to exchange with the 

20 arsenic that's coming out of the product.

21 So, the resin itself has many, many 

22 charges all over it that are either positive or 
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1 negative and they designed those resins to be 

2 able to attract the impurity that they're trying 

3 to take out of the organic product.

4 So, the resin itself has a charge and 

5 then, there's an ion that comes with it and you 

6 have to recharge it, right, the recharge 

7 materials, it comes with that ion and then you 

8 need to reapply it because, after a while, I 

9 mean, it's all gone. Right? It's lost, it all 

10 exchanges into the organic product.

11 So, the functional site and the 

12 charge, there's a lot of different types of 

13 charges that they create there specific to the 

14 impurities.

15 So, I think --

16 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay, good --

17 MS. WYARD: -- we wouldn't want to put 

18 them on the national list. We've done a thorough 

19 review, right? I mean, we've got -- like the 

20 amount -- from the technical review to the years 

21 of discussing this, when we look at the 

22 definition of a resin, we look at how it 
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1 functions.

2 We look at the language in OFPA and I 

3 would have to disagree with Sam Welsch that what 

4 goes on to the national list would be an 

5 ingredient or processing aid. And I do not think 

6 that the resins meet the definition of an

7 ingredient or a processing aid.

8 So, if we put resins on to the 

9 national list, then we're setting a precedent and 

10 NOSB is signing up to be evaluating an putting 

11 food contact substances, in general, on the 

12 national list.

13 And so, I think we want to be really

14 clear about why we would put it on the national 

15 list. And if so, what those implications would 

16 be?

17 And so, we're really trying to draw 

18 the line and say, we can do a thorough review 

19 like we're doing now and that review is going to 

20 continue at the certifier and inspector level.

21 But these little buggers, they don't 

22 need to be on the national list according to the 
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1 law.

2 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay. So, it 

3 sounds, from what you're saying, to me, that the 

4 resins have -- besides the structural backbone 

5 material, they have quite a few potentially 

6 different other chemicals that are added to them 

7 to allow them to be exchanging the proper anions 

8 and cations and that kind of thing.

9 So, they actually -- they're actually 

10 quite a few more of them than just the backbone 

11 structure would sort of indicate.

12 MS. WYARD: Yes, correct, correct, 

13 Brian.

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, okay.

15 MS. WYARD: The backbone structure, 

16 but --

17 MEMBER CALDWELL: But just --

18 MS. WYARD: -- they're 

19 covalently-bonded so, just to be more --

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, so, just to 

21 take that one step further, though wouldn't that 

22 -- I mean, if we just give a blanket --
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1 essentially a blanket approval to resins by not 

2 reviewing them, you know, couldn't that be really 

3 questionable?

4 Other materials that are added to 

5 these backbone resin structures that we might not 

6 want in there?

7 MS. WYARD: They are all going to need 

8 to be approved through the food contact substance 

9 approval process. And in order for a certifier 

10 to allow the ion exchange and the media resins 

11 and recharge materials, that would have to be 

12 included in the organic system plan.

13 And then, Kyla would need to review 

14 that organic systems plan. And they would look 

15 to that food contact substance approval and say, 

16 okay, this has been reviewed and approved by FDA.

17 FDA has looked at all of the 

18 components of that resin and they've done their 

19 testing looking at migration and potential harm, 

20 safety evaluation.

21 So, it's not that the door is just 

22 wide open, right? It's not like just any old 
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1 resin can be used. It has to be approved by the 

2 certifier and that's based on that food contact 

3 substance application and approval process by 

4 FDA.

5 And I think if you dig in and you 

6 really look at all of the guidance that FDA has 

7 for all of the information that they are asking 

8 for or requiring when somebody applies for 

9 approval of a food contact substance, it is 

10 extensive.

11 And I would even say that it goes 

12 beyond the information that we receive in 

13 technical reviews and the type of review that 

14 NOSB would carry out.

15 So, I think it's pretty impressive. 

16 And could it be improved? Yes, and should we 

17 always be looking for improvements to make sure 

18 that we are reducing any potential exposure to 

19 harmful substances? Yes.

20 We're not living in a perfect world, 

21 but I think that this system that we're looking 

22 at right now in its totality, especially with 
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1 this recommendation, if we can get all the 

2 certifiers on the same page with the same 

3 approval process, we're going to be in really 

4 good shape.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla --

6 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you very much.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- please go 

8 ahead.

9 MEMBER SMITH: Yes, I was going to 

10 circle back around to flavors.

11 I think you answered my question, I 

12 just -- or the question I had, so I just wanted 

13 to clarify.

14 The question I was thinking of was 

15 based on all the different types of flavors that 

16 are in the 101 that you submitted.

17 Is there a functional path forward for 

18 like further annotating to get it like narrowed 

19 down?

20 And what I heard you say was, yes, 

21 perhaps there is. But that would take, perhaps, 

22 reconvening the task force and more data 
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1 collection and then, perhaps there could be some 

2 further annotating or relisting in some form or 

3 fashion to narrow the current listing of flavors. 

4 Is that accurate?

5 MS. WYARD: I mean, I would like to 

6 think so. If you recall, going years back when 

7 NOSB first started grappling with this, they 

8 said, gosh, we probably should have task force 

9 that, you know, looks at all of these different 

10 flavors and, you know, figures out how we can 

11 separate out all of the different types and put 

12 some on 605, some on 606.

13 And so, we did that, we being the 

14 Organic Trade Association. We had an amazing 

15 task force for two years and our recommendation 

16 that we made to NOSB was to keep them all on 605 

17 because, as we started to go through thousands of 

18 flavors and do -- run them through the ag and 

19 non-ag decision tree and parse them all out, it 

20 was kind of a nightmare.

21 But I think that it's always good to 

22 look at something again, particularly if we are 
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1 finding that there are flavor categories that the 

2 availability organic is there, right, there's no 

3 need to even provide an option for commercial 

4 availability, then we should look at a way to 

5 somehow capture on the national list to say, if 

6 you're using an agricultural essential oil or 

7 extract, it must be organic so that we can, you 

8 know, pull off the ones that we know for sure 

9 have, you know, gotten over the finish line.

10 MEMBER SMITH: Thanks.

11 Yes, we were trying to tease that out 

12 a little bit like with our question specific in 

13 the TR. But it is a big topic.

14 So, again, I appreciate your efforts.

15 MS. WYARD: All right, well, you guys 

16 have given me --

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

18 you, Gwendolyn.

19 MS. WYARD: All right, thanks so much 

20 everyone. See you in Atlanta.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

22 Next up, we have Angela Schriver, who 
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1 I think is going to be joining us by phone, and 

2 then, Scott Myers and Brad Cessna.

3 Angela, if you are there, please go 

4 ahead and hit star six and it should unmute you.

5 MS. SCHRIVER: Good?

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, yes.

7 MS. SCHRIVER: All right, Angela 

8 Schriver from Schriver Organics, member of OEFFA 

9 Grain Growers Chapter.

10 Yesterday, I heard a lot of talk on 

11 what would be the strongest and fastest way to 

12 drive organic demand. And that demand has 

13 possibly become stagnant.

14 Now, I don't know what would increase 

15 demand for organic products, but I do know what 

16 would hurt demand and that would be a cared label 

17 approach of organic, kind of sort of organic, and 

18 not really organic, but we didn't want to be 

19 exclusionary, all this in an effort to include 

20 hydroponics under the USDA organic label.

21 One of the things we think of when we 

22 hear organic is nutrient dense food. Why? What 
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1 creates nutrient density?

2 Googling the phrase soil health and 

3 nutrient density, you find soil health and 

4 nutrient density, preliminary comparison from the 

5 National Institute of Health whose findings 

6 suggest soil health is an underappreciated 

7 influence on nutrient density.

8 You also find nutrient density, know 

9 the facts from Rodale that states plants get 

10 their nutrients from the soil and that healthy, 

11 nutritious foods have healthy soil, among many 

12 other examples.

13 The common thread being soil, 

14 specifically healthy soil.

15 The comparison for always between 

16 regenerative farms, specifically that use cover 

17 cropping and diverse crop rotation and 

18 conventional farms that use synthetic fertilizer 

19 and herbicides.

20 Discussing whether regen fix is a step 

21 towards organic is not my discussion point, but 

22 obviously, in these cases, the cover cropping and 
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1 diverse crop rotation are a substantial component 

2 of an organic system.

3 Instead, I want to focus on 

4 conventional ag. The premise of conventional ag 

5 is inserting fertilizer into a growing medium in 

6 order to produce a crop, providing most, if not 

7 all the nutrients a crop needs to grow. Sounds a 

8 lot like hydroponics to me.

9 Not using synthetic fertilizer does 

10 not make you organic.

11 The beauty of a healthy soil system is 

12 the diverse microbial life that is acquired 

13 through biodiversity.

14 I don't think discussing the delivery 

15 system of nutrients in hydroponics will be able 

16 to address the lack of microbial life there is 

17 there that is inherently present in healthy soil 

18 systems that is the hallmark of organic.

19 It is the specific healthy soil system 

20 that NOP established and by requiring crop 

21 rotations among the other pillars of soil heath.

22 And going through the typical process 
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1 of rule making will not hydroponics organic.

2 Additionally, organic production that 

3 is soil based incorporates diversity and protects 

4 the environment is exactly why organic is climate 

5 smart.

6 And to utilize true organic 

7 agriculture systems to fight climate change 

8 should be met with immediate action. If you 

9 don't immediately resolve the discrepancy between 

10 true organic systems and hydroponics, you will 

11 lose the opportunity to say organic is climate 

12 smart. And missing that opportunity would leave 

13 the term climate smart accessible for 

14 conventional farming to highjack.

15 There is no getting creative in how we 

16 look at hydroponics as it will never align with 

17 organic standards.

18 I think the NOSB needs to put a hold 

19 on certifying hydroponics until you decide if 

20 NOSB wants to advance what we call organic if you 

21 want to truly advance organic policy because they 

22 are not the same thing.
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1 Thank you.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate your 

3 comments.

4 Questions from the Board?

5 (No response.)

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

7 you.

8 Next up, we have Kim Bayer, and I 

9 think I saw Kim on.

10 MS. BAYER: I am on, I'm just trying 

11 to --

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

13 MS. BAYER: -- figure out the video. 

14 I'm in my home office.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Excellent, I see 

16 you, see you and hear you.

17 MS. BAYER: Not in the farm office.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, all 

19 right.

20 MS. BAYER: In my car.

21 So, my name is Kim Bayer from Slow 

22 Farm. It's an organic -- it's my organic 
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1 you-pick farm in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

2 And right now, we're working on 

3 preparing our fields for planting, but having the 

4 opportunity to say something in this forum about 

5 what matters to organic farmers like me feels 

6 like an opportunity that's important enough to 

7 leave my farm fields at what's a critical time 

8 for us.

9 So, there's a Paul Harvey quote that 

10 says something like humanity, despite the 

11 sophistication and many accomplishments, owes its 

12 existence to a six-inch layer of topsoil and the 

13 fact that it rains.

14 All the best farmers that I know and 

15 the farmer that I aspire to be we're not crop 

16 farmers, we're soil farmers.

17 I submitted to the difficult process 

18 of becoming a certified organic farm because of 

19 the guarantee provided to me and to my community 

20 that our commitment is to caring for and 

21 demonstrably improving the health of the soil.

22 Health of our soil is what everyone 
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1 everywhere depends upon. So, farming inside of a 

2 plastic buckets on top of plastic sheeting or in 

3 some witches brew of chemical nutrients is not 

4 organic farming. It's not developing the health 

5 of the soil. And in fact, it's degrading the 

6 health of the soil. That needs to stop.

7 I would ask that the NOSB remove the 

8 organic label from that type of farming and, 

9 instead, develop consistent measures for 

10 identifying markers of soil health and milestones 

11 for organic farmers to work toward in soil 

12 health.

13 This would strengthen the integrity of 

14 the organic label that has begun to erode under 

15 the current conditions.

16 The other comment that I would like to 

17 make in this forum is in regards to racial 

18 equity. While antiracism and cultural 

19 sensitivity training for NOSB members would be a 

20 minimum starting point, and adding racial equity 

21 as a work agenda item to committees is probably a 

22 good idea.
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1 I would ask that in all of the work of 

2 the NOSB, that a racial equity lenses is applied.

3 That means, in hiring and in 

4 leadership, in policy, developing policy, and 

5 committee inclusion, considering impacts, and in 

6 language of publication and outreach, that the 

7 NOSB is a leader in living and promoting racial 

8 equity and works diligently to undo the shameful 

9 history of systemic racism in USDA programs.

10 As a farmer who proudly supports what 

11 the organic label stands for in this country, I 

12 work every day to grow soil health and 

13 biodiversity on my farm and to strengthen my 

14 local food system and improve the health of my 

15 community and future generations.

16 I want to know that the NOSB, my 

17 organic certifier, the National Organic Program, 

18 and the USDA are also making sure that we work 

19 toward the best that we can aspire to and not the 

20 least that we can get away with.

21 Thank you so much.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 
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1 especially for joining us from the farm. That's 

2 one of the cool things about this tech. So, 

3 thanks for taking time away, love it, love it.

4 You have a lot less snow than I do 

5 today. So, I'm jealous that you're able to get 

6 in the field. It is about six inches on the 

7 ground this morning, so we are waiting to see.

8 MS. BAYER: It stopped here earlier.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Excellent.

10 Well, we have one question for you, 

11 Nate Lewis, please go ahead.

12 MEMBER LEWIS: Thanks.

13 Yes, I acknowledge your working from 

14 the farm office, I love that.

15 So, I work in the space of farmland 

16 preservation and land access. And I appreciate 

17 there's a diversity of opinions around 

18 hydroponics and soil-less farming in its place or 

19 not in organics.

20 And one of the problems I'm -- or one 

21 of the issues I'm trying to wrestle with is we 

22 all know that there is inequitable access to 
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1 land. And trying to square a racial equity 

2 approach and support for making organic inclusive 

3 while also making land ownership or land access a 

4 requirement, that's something I'm having a hard 

5 time to square up.

6 And I'm curious if you can sort of 

7 help share with me some of the thoughts you have 

8 that?

9 MS. BAYER: I can see how you're like 

10 -- seeing how those things come together in ways 

11 that seem like they are against each other.

12 I guess I would say that I think that 

13 they're pretty separate issues and that they need 

14 to be solved separately.

15 I would say that in terms of land 

16 access, that that is kind of a universal problem 

17 everywhere among beginning farmers and especially 

18 among farmers of color who have had their land 

19 systemically taken from them.

20 And so, I guess I would like to see 

21 not that those problems are conflated and put 

22 together, but that they are each approached 
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1 separately for the unique issues that there are 

2 with both of them.

3 MEMBER LEWIS: Okay, thank you, I 

4 appreciate it.

5 MS. BAYER: And I'd also like to say 

6 that I really support what Angela had to say.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we'll 

8 we appreciate you taking the time to speak with 

9 us today, thank you.

10 MS. BAYER: Thank you.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

12 Scott Myers followed by Brad Cessna and then, 

13 Corey Struck.

14 Scott, please go ahead.

15 MR. MYERS: All right, hello, my name 

16 is Scott Myers from Woodlyn Acres Farm here in 

17 Dalton, Ohio. I certify my farm with OEFFA and 

18 the Real Organic Project. I'm also a member of 

19 and participate in their crop insurance work 

20 group and I'm also a member of the Organic 

21 Farmers Association where I serve on the policy 

22 committee.
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1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com

1 My farm is a fourth generation family 

2 farm raising organic grains and hay over 2,500 

3 acres in northeastern Ohio.

4 I appreciate and thank you for the 

5 opportunity to participate in this important 

6 public process, although I would much rather be 

7 in person speaking with you, this is the best 

8 option for a farmer in the middle of the spring 

9 season, as we just heard on the last one, too.

10 We're actually sunny and 80 degrees 

11 outside. So, my employees are going hard today.

12 So, but anyways, I would like to start 

13 out by talking about crop insurance related to 

14 organic farming.

15 We use whole farm, multi-peril and the 

16 pasture range land and forage policies to protect 

17 our farm.

18 OEFFA has submitted some written 

19 comments about our crop insurance view which I 

20 fully support. I do want to emphasize that whole 

21 farms still has many issues and hurdles to 

22 overcome, including paperwork reduction and 
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1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200

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1 education of underwriters and agents.

2 But I do feel that this product has 

3 the potential to be the best coverage for 

4 diversified organic farms in the future.

5 Another question that always comes up 

6 is about T yields and they have been also 

7 discussed in respect to multi-peril products. 

8 And this is an issue that not only affects 

9 organic and transitioning farmers, but also all 

10 new farmers in general, putting them at an 

11 economic disadvantage to established farmers with 

12 good APH histories.

13 So, moving on to another hot issue, as 

14 an organic farmer, I'm appalled by the inclusion 

15 of non-soil based systems in my industry.

16 What happened to the idea that soil is 

17 the foundation for organic agriculture?

18 This is just simple common sense. 

19 First, it's written in the organic regulations.

20 But second, and more importantly, soil 

21 is the basis for organic farming. Soil microbes, 

22 earthworms, cover crops, green manure crops, 
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1 increasing soil health, all of these pertain to 

2 soil and cannot be found in a hydroponic or 

3 container system, but are necessary in an organic 

4 system.

5 Hydroponic systems are a revolutionary 

6 way of growing food in places that may not be 

7 suitable for soil based food production.

8 And I do feel they have a place in 

9 supplying food to consumers. But they are not 

10 soil based and, therefore, they have no place in 

11 the organic industry.

12 There is no reason that these systems 

13 feel need to use the organic label other than 

14 money. They should continue to sell their 

15 hydroponic production as conventional and push 

16 the benefits that they can bring in that area and 

17 not try and confuse the consumers.

18 We simply need to enforce the rules we 

19 already have in place on organic.

20 So, I ask that you please work to add 

21 field and greenhouse container production back to 

22 the OSB work agenda and lead our a community in a 
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1 discussion on this important topic.

2 The future of organic integrity 

3 depends on it.

4 I'd be happy to discuss any of these 

5 issues further with you if I can be of any help. 

6 And thank you for your time and service to the 

7 organic community.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, thank you 

9 for joining us today. We certainly have a 

10 question for you.

11 Brian, please go ahead.

12 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, Scott, thanks 

13 so much. I know it's a busy time.

14 I'm just -- my sort of bigger picture 

15 type of question is how can we get more field 

16 crop and grain farmers to get into organics? 

17 Just very briefly, and you can't spend all day on 

18 this, but just a few quick thoughts, please.

19 MR. MYERS: Yes, sure.

20 So, I'll use our farm as an example. 

21 This is our seventh year certified organic. We 

22 were a similar size, actually larger conventional 
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1 operation before this.

2 And in our local community, we have a 

3 lot of support for the organic. We sit in one of 

4 the larger organic valley dairy areas. And so, 

5 those dairies need feed and so, then they go out 

6 to the other farmers and they've got to switch.

7 But the key that I've found for 

8 switching is to have a good mentor. Other 

9 organic farmers that you can look to to see how 

10 they do it.

11 I'm very, very fortunate that I have 

12 our seed salesman, actually, has been a mentor to 

13 many different people in the area. And so, I 

14 have that.

15 And I have an organic farmer that's 

16 been organic since the >80s beside us. And we've 

17 watched them and learned from them. So, if I 

18 have a question, I just go across the road and 

19 ask him.

20 So, it seems like once have a good 

21 organic farmer established in this area -- in an 

22 area, then it kind of grows.
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1 And we're finding that ourselves as we 

2 have transitioned over to organic, people watch 

3 us and we have more and more people that stop in

4 and start that switch over.

5 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks so much.

6 Yes, that's a great comment and we --

7 I've seen the same thing here in New York State 

8 with Clawson and Mary Helm Martin who you may 

9 know, I don't know.

10 But yes, appreciate that.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

12 ahead.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, thanks, Nate.

14 Thank you, Scott, so much for 

15 attending our session today and all the work 

16 you're doing in the organic community and your 

17 work on the working group for crop insurance. We 

18 really appreciated the detailed comments that 

19 were also provided us on that work agenda item.

20 I wanted to ask two questions, crop 

21 insurance is the category.

22 One is about, because you're a grain 
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1 farmer, but you mentioned the comment about 

2 diversified operations. And that, we see a lot 

3 in the written comments.

4 And you mentioned that whole farm 

5 works better for diversified operations.

6 Can you tell me why the revenue 

7 protection and general federal crop doesn't work 

8 for diversified producers?

9 MR. MYERS: So, we've had multi-peril 

10 crop insurance on our farm since 1988, actually, 

11 even when we were conventional. And so, we use 

12 that very strongly and went through the 

13 transition process with it.

14 One of the biggest problems is, when 

15 we started -- when we became -- switched over to 

16 organic, we do all our transitioning with hay, so 

17 that is a non-crop that we have to worry about 

18 with multi-peril.

19 But when we switched over organic, we 

20 basically became a new farmer. And a new farmer 

21 has to start with a yield that is given to them, 

22 called a T yield. And that is basically based on 
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1 a county yield.

2 And we actually met with RMA 

3 yesterday, or the work group did, and I learned a 

4 lot more about T yields and they're not very 

5 interested in changing them, as I found out. But 

6 they're not very up to date.

7 We were -- I think our T yield in our 

8 county's like a 100 bushel acre, or APH, when we 

9 were conventional was like 170 bushel acre. And 

10 we consistently raise 150 to 200 bushel acre 

11 organic corn. So, it doesn't offer much help.

12 So, that's why we look at whole farm, 

13 whole farms revenue base. And like I said, there 

14 still are some problems with whole farm, but it 

15 allows us to guarantee that we're going to be 

16 able to -- it doesn't matter what crops we raise, 

17 but, you know, we get discount for the more crops 

18 we raise.

19 And then, it also allows us to operate 

20 another year. I mean, it says, okay, if we have, 

21 you know, a million dollars worth of guaranteed 

22 -- our revenue is what's expected, and our 
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1 five-year historical revenue is $900,000, we can 

2 then ensure 85 percent of that if we want to.

3 So, that would allow us to make sure 

4 that, hey, we know all our costs are covered, our 

5 bank payments are made, and we will -- we live to 

6 work another year basically.

7 And that's the ultimate goal of crop 

8 insurance in my -- well, it's not trying to 

9 profit off of things as some of these policies 

10 look at and some of these -- especially 

11 conventional farmers look at. Oh, we can make a 

12 profit, we can guarantee a profit. That's not 

13 what crop insurance should be.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, that's absolutely. 

15 And thanks for highlighting about the T yields. 

16 That's really important because basically the 

17 difference in not -- or having that discrepancy 

18 in your T yield and your actual production 

19 history is essentially farmers are self-insuring 

20 that gap.

21 So, I appreciate you highlighting 

22 that.
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1 I wondered, in your county 

2 specifically, are you facing that certain crops 

3 you want to rotate into or not necessarily have 

4 the capability of getting insured through federal 

5 crops on your rotational small grains and some of 

6 the different legumes? Are you experiencing that 

7 challenge as well?

8 MR. MYERS: Yes, pretty much other 

9 than corn, soybeans, and wheat, we are unable to 

10 -- we're using federal crop to insure anything.

11 We raise ten different crops and we 

12 have -- raise sunflowers for four years and we 

13 could get a written agreement, but that is just 

14 very, very complicated to get and not really 

15 satisfactory on the farmer's end.

16 We also raise canola which is a newer 

17 crop in this area and barley and, yes, like you

18 said, a lot of small grains.

19 So, and the hay we use, it's called 

20 pasture, rangeland, and forage land, PRF policy, 

21 that's actually worked very well for hay. We've 

22 been in the hay business for 20 years and you 
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1 originally use the non-insured crop program 

2 through FSA for that.

3 And tried this PRF program and it is 

4 worked better than I expected. It's one of the 

5 better and simpler programs that I've ever used 

6 with crop insurance.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, that is a really 

8 good program. And I think we need to highlight 

9 that one more.

10 Last question, sorry, I'm peppering 

11 you with all these, this is really helpful for 

12 your information.

13 You mentioned you met with RMA the 

14 other day, talked about T yields. Do you have 

15 any ideas how to convey some recommendations on 

16 how T yields can be changed or modified?

17 MR. MYERS: So, yes, so we had a 

18 really good discussion yesterday with the group 

19 from RMA. And they pretty much told us that the 

20 T yields are kind of off the table in some sense 

21 now for changes because they have all this data 

22 that backs up how they figure them and 
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1 everything.

2 To be totally honest, though, I still 

3 think they're flawed.

4 One thing, though, that we need to do 

5 with T yields and we need to make sure organic 

6 farmers and farmers -- all farmers need to return 

7 the question sheets from NASS, National Ag 

8 Statistics Service.

9 When I was, you know, 10, 15 years 

10 ago, conventional farmer, we used to laugh at 

11 those and throw in the trash because I'm like, 

12 well, we don't want them.

13 But now that I see the value of those, 

14 everybody needs -- because that's where they get 

15 their information. That's where they get the T 

16 yields from. It comes from that kind of 

17 information.

18 I wish they would not -- they need to 

19 use more information than that, in my book. I 

20 think it would be a better way. You know, use 

21 that information but then also use -- they have 

22 crop insurance information usually for the 
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1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200

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1 county.

2 They -- a lot of times, they have 

3 information to FSA. Anymore, we have to, you 

4 know, we have to report a lot of yields to the 

5 Farm Service Agency, and we're reporting there as 

6 well.

7 So, I wish they would kind of use a 

8 whole, you know, a lot more options there.

9 And I wish there was a way that we 

10 could use our conventional T yield going in, 

11 maybe like a percentage or something. I mean, I 

12 don't expect to have 170 bushel T yield my first 

13 year of organic. That's insane. Okay? I 

14 realize that. I'm learning, I'm new to it.

15 But I also don't expect to have 100 

16 bushel T yield.

17 And then, if you throw in the whole 

18 transition yield thing in there which lays -- I'm 

19 going to stay out of, but that's a whole other 

20 crop insurance issue there. It just makes a big 

21 issue.

22 The other problem with all of that is, 
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1 is because we're organic and we have such a 

2 long-term rotation, we have a seven year 

3 rotation, sometimes ten year rotation.

4 APHs take five years of raising a crop 

5 on a farm or on a unit, a crop unit that they 

6 call, you have to have five years of yields to 

7 have, you know, the APH off the T yield part. 

8 And that's really hard to do when you have a 

9 seven year rotation. That could be up to 35 

10 years just to get my APH correct and get rid of 

11 all my T yields.

12 So, that is a whole other issue.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, thank you so much, 

14 very articulate, Scott. I appreciate it.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim, please go 

16 ahead.

17 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi, Scott, thank you 

18 so much for the information that you've given us 

19 today.

20 I'm going to be very brief here and 

21 just tell you how appreciative I am of you 

22 stepping out of the comfort zone of some of the 
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1 traditional grains and legumes and hays and 

2 trying other products, too, even without some of 

3 the support that I think is overwhelmingly needed 

4 in this space.

5 Having farmers be willing to enter 

6 into those arenas are greatly appreciated as 

7 these products are definitely needed in this 

8 space as we work through it on the policy side.

9 And just want to say good luck to you 

10 and your planting season this year.

11 MR. MYERS: Thank you.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn, if you're 

13 there?

14 MEMBER DIMITRI: Hi, I'm sorry about 

15 that, someone was asking me a very important 

16 question.

17 Scott, thank you so much for your 

18 greatly detailed information on crop insurance.

19 And I'm especially interested in the 

20 whole farm revenue crop insurance and wonder if 

21 you can speculate as to why, even though this is 

22 supposed to be the ideal instrument for organic 
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1 farmers, like why is the usage just decreasing 

2 year after year after year?

3 MR. MYERS: Well, that's a very good 

4 question because actually, with my agent, I've 

5 had the discussion and a couple days ago, we're 

6 still going through the paperwork process and 

7 trying to go back and forth with underwriting to 

8 get this year's policy approved.

9 One issue why people don't do it is, 

10 first of all, the agents don't push it because it 

11 takes a lot of time on the agent's part and they 

12 do not -- they make a lot more money selling 

13 multi-peril year after year where it's just easy. 

14 You send in your information and you're done.

15 This -- you almost have to have an 

16 accounting degree to do some of this stuff. In 

17 fact, we had a discussion, accounting -- I don't 

18 have an accounting degree, but it's kind of my --

19 I love accounting and I love statistics.

20 And I actually had a little -- got 

21 with the underwriter the other day and I'm like, 

22 you guys aren't even using general accepted 
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1 accounting practices in crop insurance.

2 So, that's an issue and it's a 

3 paperwork thing. I mean, I am fortunate that I 

4 have access to a lot of this paperwork. Some of 

5 the things they ask for, even though they were 

6 supposed to get rid of the expense requirement 

7 and all that, I'm finding out that, even though 

8 they did get rid of the expense requirement, they 

9 are still allowed to ask for those which I got 

10 asked for.

11 And when they want expenses on that 

12 many different crops, on that many different 

13 things, and proof of revenue and stuff, it can 

14 get really daunting at times.

15 MEMBER DIMITRI: Nate, can I have a 

16 follow up --

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, go ahead.

18 MEMBER DIMITRI: -- question?

19 Okay, Scott, so what do you see as 

20 like -- what is like a reasonable way to reduce 

21 that barrier? Is it -- like I never -- I hate 

22 the phrase like educate the insurance agents.
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1 I mean, obviously, I think they're 

2 pretty smart and if they wanted to learn how to 

3 do it, they would be able to do it.

4 So, like what's the way forward here? 

5 Or a way forward?

6 MR. MYERS: Yes, yes, you know, one 

7 of them, and I had this discussion yesterday was, 

8 I provide -- so, we have loans with Farm Credit 

9 we use for our bank. And I have those loans 

10 already. And at the end of the year, I provide 

11 them balance sheet information, inventory 

12 information, production, all this information and 

13 that's exactly what they should be using for 

14 whole farm.

15 But for some reason, instead of just 

16 using that information, now they have to twist it 

17 and turn it to fit into their stuff.

18 And it's like, guys, if I can, you 

19 know, secure my farm loans and my bank's 

20 comfortable with that using that, all of that 

21 information, it should be allowed also at that --

22 not have to -- basically, I have to redo it all 
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1 so it fits their set up.

2 So, that would make it a lot easier 

3 because a lot of people have loans. People go to 

4 their banks and do that stuff every year. That's 

5 a required thing if you have a loan with a bank. 

6 So, that would be one.

7 Another would be to look at the 

8 paperwork reduction they did to the micro-farm, 

9 part of it, to 35,000 and less. And there was a 

10 -- when they made those changes, there's a lot 

11 less paperwork.

12 I was shocked when I found out how 

13 much less paperwork those people have, you know, 

14 those applicants have to do.

15 And I'm really disappointed right now, 

16 too, that a lot of the agents don't realize that 

17 difference yet. That was -- yesterday, they told 

18 us about their traveling road show or whatever 

19 RMA did and I didn't even know about that.

20 And so, they talked about that and I 

21 asked my agent had he heard about that and he 

22 said, no. And they sell whole farm. And he's 
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1 like, we didn't even know about that.

2 So, back to the education, I know 

3 that's not perfect, but it seems like maybe 

4 they're just preaching to the choir sometimes and 

5 they're not going out here and getting to the 

6 people they really need to be getting to as well.

7 But, yes, using documents we already 

8 have, I think that's a big deal.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, I'm going to 

10 say, like really quick, please.

11 MEMBER DIMITRI: Oh, gosh, Amy, could 

12 I ask one more really fast question?

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Very fast, please.

14 MEMBER DIMITRI: All right.

15 This may be an academic question, but 

16 like couldn't we just get rid of all crop 

17 insurance and just use whole farm for everyone?

18 MR. MYERS: That is, to be totally 

19 honest, I am all for that. I think whole farm is 

20 the perfect crop insurance. It fits everybody. 

21 And I think that's where all the money should be 

22 spent, all the subsidies should be spent.
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1 Somebody with 10, 20 crops, you know, 

2 some of these vegetable crops have 30, 40, 50 

3 crops, they're -- the chances of that paying out 

4 are so slim, they should be getting it for almost 

5 nothing because it's just keeping -- the goal is, 

6 if they have a total disaster then, yes, they're 

7 going to be able to live to fight another year.

8 So, yes.

9 MEMBER DIMITRI: Thank you, thank you.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

11 ahead.

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Just a quick question, 

13 yes or no on whole farm, when you are 

14 implementing whole farm, or the history of it, 

15 were you expanding your operation during that 

16 insurance policy? Yes or no?

17 MR. MYERS: Yes, yes, we actually had 

18 whole farm six or seven years ago and went 

19 through that and that's why we quit whole farm 

20 for a while because it didn't work like it 

21 should.

22 So, that is another issue when you're 
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1 expanding or taking on crops that are higher 

2 value, even if you're not expanding acreage wise, 

3 but expanding financially, I guess I would say.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Scott, you rock. 

5 Thank you for taking so much time of your day to 

6 speak with us and providing so much information. 

7 Really appreciate you.

8 MR. MYERS: Thank you guys very much.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, is Brad 

10 Cessna on the line? Don't think we saw you. If 

11 you're here, please just go ahead and unmute and 

12 let us know.

13 (No response.)

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, 

15 otherwise, we're going to go to Corey Struck 

16 followed by Russell Hamlin and then, Steve Ela.

17 Corey, if you're there, please go 

18 ahead.

19 MR. STRUCK: Hello, good afternoon.

20 My name's Corey Struck. I operate 

21 Flying S Farms located in Broadlands, Illinois.

22 I'm currently beginning my second year 
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1 of transition and I'm an OEFFA member and I'm 

2 participating in their crop insurance and 

3 research working groups.

4 I work together with my family to grow 

5 crops on 450 acres here.

6 I'm here today to comment on three 

7 topics, crop insurance, farmer access to NOSB 

8 meetings, and geotagging.

9 The biggest one is crop insurance. 

10 So, right now, current constructs are scaled 

11 based on acres which gives larger safety nets for 

12 larger farmers.

13 They incentivize the shorter cropping 

14 cycles with less cash crops and APH rules are 

15 less effective with longer cropping rotations 

16 under these constructs.

17 And the large portion problem with 

18 them when it applies to organics is that if you 

19 do not have a history, you get 65 percent of your 

20 conventional counted T yields right off the bat, 

21 kind of no matter what.

22 So, recommendations, one 
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1 recommendation is to have a graduated subsidy 

2 where a large producer can actually become 

3 unsubsidized by buying so much insurance and not 

4 taking as much of the risk out on their own.

5 Add provisions where if you don't have 

6 -- for our climate, a small grain or something 

7 that is out of your normal season crop to add 

8 diversity, you're not eligible for subsidies.

9 Also, re-evaluating only getting 65 

10 percent of your county T yields, as we progress 

11 down the organic pathway, we're seeing the yield 

12 gap between organic and conventional closing. 

13 And not necessarily the rules as they apply to 

14 subsidies closing that gap at the same rate.

15 Also, finding a way to speed up APH 

16 building and then enterprising by practice for 

17 farmers who want to keep both organic and 

18 non-organic operations.

19 For farmer access to NOSB meetings, 

20 you guys are holding your meetings at pretty busy 

21 times for farmers who are kind of the base of the 

22 organic system, especially for smaller operations 
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1 that can afford less time away during planting 

2 and harvest seasons.

3 And my recommendation would be that 

4 you potentially add extra listening sessions in 

5 addition to your regular meetings if it -- when 

6 it's too cumbersome to move them.

7 And finally, geotagging, my 

8 recommendation is that FSA maps already have to 

9 be geotagged or they couldn't mark them out in 

10 our GIS format. So, don't put that on the farmer 

11 to go do that, but try and make that relationship 

12 with FSA happen.

13 And also, to make sure that it is 

14 mandatory and enforced for all imports that come 

15 into the country where we would actually see 

16 benefit from that.

17 Thank you for your time and your 

18 service to the organic community.

19 Do you have any questions for me?

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We do, questions 

21 from Dilip and then Nate.

22 Please go ahead.
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1 MEMBER NANDWANI: Hi, thank you for 

2 your comments.

3 And you had mentioned a lot of good 

4 recommendations.

5 I'm just wondering, and you mentioned 

6 that you are in second year of transitional 

7 phase. 

8 So, I'm more on the production side. 

9 So, can you tell me what one or two challenges in 

10 terms of product you face or being a transitional 

11 grower, what can you suggest or have one or two 

12 recommendations for NOSB to look into to help 

13 transitional growers?

14 And you know, that last year, USDA has 

15 released a lot of funding for transitional 

16 growers. So, I'm looking into that aspect and 

17 asking you.

18 Thank you for your comments, again.

19 MR. STRUCK: Okay, so, as far as I 

20 know, the only piece of that pie that I would 

21 have access to as a transitional grower is TOGA, 

22 which is also crop insurance subsidies. And that 
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1 was 10 percent of what I could do.

2 So, my state actually has a program 

3 where you get $5 per acre if you plant cover 

4 crops, right, which is integral to at least my 

5 fertility management and also my weed management.

6 And that $5 is substantially more, on 

7 the order of three to four times more than 

8 anything I would be eligible for under TOGA.

9 So, for me, picking a practice that 

10 helps me get to where I want to go, actually 

11 helps me better than the larger TOGA funds.

12 And the only other thing that I really 

13 know about these funds is they were put out there 

14 in $300 million is a good sum, but they didn't 

15 necessarily have an action plan behind them of 

16 how to get them implemented and into peoples'

17 hands which I think is definitely something that 

18 needs to be changed with how our -- well, with 

19 how we dole out money at a governmental level and 

20 any sort of process.

21 But that's -- does that answer your --

22 I got one recommendation. Does that answer your 
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1 question, though, sir?

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes, you did, I 

3 understand that.

4 Thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

6 ahead.

7 MEMBER LEWIS: Yes, appreciate you 

8 bringing up APH and I'm curious if your committee 

9 talked about including yields during transition 

10 years? I know many folks transition with hay, so 

11 it's not always -- works there.

12 But there are some folks who choose to 

13 transition with cash crops.

14 And whether you've discussed or had 

15 any reaction from RMA about using yields obtained 

16 during transition years that later establish an 

17 organic APH or at least make an argument that you 

18 shouldn't be subject to that 65 percent discount?

19 MR. STRUCK: so, I have not engaged 

20 with RMA or anybody specifically from RMA about 

21 those specific points.

22 MEMBER LEWIS: Okay, yes, I was 
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1 curious. In your committee you were talking 

2 about like different options on APH saying 

3 whether that transition year yield could be of 

4 value?

5 MR. STRUCK: I mean, yes and no, 

6 right? So, organic's a system that only gets 

7 better over time as long as you're adhering to 

8 the principles. Right?

9 So, you're transitional years are 

10 going to be your lowest. And honestly, my first 

11 year of transition, so -- and that's cutting 

12 everything off cold turkey and my nutrient plan 

13 is pretty low nitrogen. Like I didn't go out and 

14 dump four tons of manure out on my fields or 

15 anything like that.

16 And my yields were still where they 

17 were expected to be, which is pretty amazing. 

18 So, especially going through the D-1 drought in 

19 our little area as well.

20 Like it's, I don't know, I think that 

21 correlating your percentage of T yield and making 

22 that movable as to what you're actually seeing in 
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1 data as opposed to what we saw in data whenever 

2 they made that rule, which was probably prior to 

3 2018, right, would be more helpful.

4 MEMBER LEWIS: Thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I just want to 

6 thank you so much for joining us today. And I 

7 want to especially highlight, thank you for 

8 coming up with solutions, well considered, 

9 actionable solutions and not just raising 

10 problems in your comments.

11 So, really appreciate you taking the 

12 time from your farm to join us today.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. STRUCK: Thank you.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

16 Russell Hamlin followed by Steve Ela and then, 

17 Ginny Olson.

18 MR. HAMLIN: All right, can you hear 

19 me, Nate?

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can, please go 

21 ahead.

22 DR. HAMLIN: Hey, I want to thank you 
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1 and the NOSB for the opportunity to speak today.

2 My name is Dr. Russell Hamlin. I'm 

3 the vice president of farming for Grimmway Farms 

4 in Bakersfield, California.

5 I'm also the chair of the 

6 International Fresh Product Association's 

7 Organics Committee.

8 And my comments today will be on 

9 behalf of the IFPA. I'll be making a few 

10 statements about climate smart agriculture and 

11 the sunset items that are under review.

12 With respect to your climate smart 

13 discussion, the IFPA believes that organic crop 

14 production is inherently climate smart and that 

15 certified organic producers should automatically 

16 be eligible for all climate smart funding 

17 opportunities administered by the USDA.

18 With respect to a few of the sunset 

19 items, the IFPA believes that all of the 

20 following materials should continue to be allowed 

21 for use in organic farming, plastic mulch covers,

22 elemental sulfur, sulfurous acid, lime sulfur, 
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1 liquid fish products, potassium chloride, and 

2 aqueous potassium silicate.

3 Plastic mulch covers are essential for 

4 many organic farmers across the country for weed 

5 control. Without them, their weeding costs will 

6 skyrocket and the overall success on -- with 

7 organic farming will decrease.

8 If we're serious about helping farmers 

9 transition from conventional to organic farming, 

10 allowing them to use plastic mulches is one of 

11 the ways that we can help.

12 It's also a harsh reality that if we 

13 take away plastic mulch covers in organic 

14 farming, many people will go out of business.

15 Potassium chloride is an important 

16 low-cost organic fertilizer that supplies two 

17 needed essential elements for plant growth, 

18 potassium and chloride.

19 I would urge the NOSB not to oppose 

20 the use of chloride in organic farming. It is 

21 essential for the evolution of oxygen in plants 

22 and is, therefore, responsible for our ability to 
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1 breathe.

2 Elemental sulfur, lime sulfur, and 

3 aqueous potassium silicate are all important for 

4 disease and insect control in organic farming.

5 Elemental sulfur and potassium 

6 silicate, in particular, are used extensively by 

7 organic vegetable producers to control diseases 

8 like downy mildew.

9 Lime sulfur is used extensively by 

10 organic tree, vine, and small fruit crops in 

11 order to combat overwintering fungal diseases.

12 But elemental sulfur is of particular 

13 importance because it also is one of the few 

14 materials that can be used in organic farming to 

15 lower soil pH. It can also be used in sulfur 

16 burners to create sulfurous acid to lower 

17 irrigation water pH. And both of these can be 

18 essential for maintaining proper plant and soil 

19 health.

20 Lastly, I want to comment on liquid 

21 fish products. They are important components of 

22 many organic fertility plans. They are 
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1 particularly important to those farmers that use 

2 drip irrigation and need liquid fertilizers to 

3 inject for crop nutrition.

4 That's the end of my comments. I'll 

5 be glad to answer any questions that you have.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we 

7 appreciate your comments.

8 Wood has a question for you.

9 MEMBER TURNER: Thanks, Dr. Hamlin, I 

10 appreciate the comments.

11 I'll ask a question I asked a large 

12 grower yesterday as well, can you tell me about 

13 IFPA's engagement and also your company's 

14 engagement and kind of solutions for plastic 

15 mulch recovery and what you're hearing from the 

16 ground in terms of the ability to get that 

17 material off the ground? How it's functioning 

18 sort of in a live environment and sort of what 

19 they -- what kind of pathway you're seeing for 

20 better recovery of that material?

21 DR. HAMLIN: Well, I mean, it's true 

22 that, you know, I'll speak from the Grimmway 
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1 perspective. I don't know that the IFPA has 

2 specifically discussed that topic.

3 But you absolutely see more equipment 

4 that is being used to help retrieve that 

5 material. Anybody that's used plastic 

6 understands that it can be a difficult thing to 

7 get it all up out of the field.

8 But that's what I would say is that 

9 the equipment used for getting it out of the 

10 field is more developed and you tend to have a 

11 better success getting it out if you use better 

12 equipment.

13 I don't know if that's a great answer, 

14 but that's the one that I've got.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin, please 

16 go ahead.

17 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes, I know you said 

18 that there are climates -- some farmers who go 

19 out of business without the plastics.

20 Do you have some concerns down the 

21 line when it comes to plastics and if you have an 

22 ideal situation of what the future should look 
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1 like? What should be going and what should we do 

2 about plastics?

3 DR. HAMLIN: Well, I stand by my 

4 comment that some people would go out of business 

5 without the plastics. That's the first thing 

6 that probably needs to be said.

7 The reason it has to do with the 

8 tremendous costs associated with weed control. 

9 And so, I think that plastic mulch covers need to 

10 continue to be used in organic farming.

11 I think that the point that, you know, 

12 you can leave plastic behind and that is a 

13 problem is valid. It needs to be worked on.

14 You know, I'm not sure if, you know, 

15 what the future could be for biodegradable 

16 plastic mulches that may not leave a residue for 

17 long periods of time. I'm not sure if they're 

18 even allowed for use in organic agriculture. But 

19 I've seen them in conventional agriculture.

20 And so, possibly coming up with 

21 something that's as effective as a plastic mulch 

22 cover but has the ability to biodegrade would be 
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1 something that would be good.

2 But I think that the plastic mulches 

3 are essential. Not everybody -- you can lay that 

4 plastic mulch for $300 to $400 an acre and it can 

5 cost $3,000 to $4,000 an acre to weed that land. 

6 And so, it is a tremendous barrier, particularly 

7 to people who are trying to transition.

8 And I would strongly urge that we keep 

9 it.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

11 ahead.

12 MEMBER LEWIS: Sorry, finding my mute 

13 button there.

14 I'm just -- a quick question, how 

15 often are you hearing from producers that are 

16 using liquid fish products and liquid seaweed 

17 extracts in combination for a drip program? Is 

18 that a common combination or are they one or the 

19 other? Or where's the potassium coming from on 

20 those kind of?

21 DR. HAMLIN: Yes, I would think that, 

22 you know, we don't particularly use a lot of drip 
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1 irrigation at Grimmway. A lot of people that do 

2 will place the potassium under the plastic as a 

3 pre-plant and they can put it down as a hot mix 

4 or a bed mix.

5 And so, they're typically getting up 

6 front.

7 You may also be able to take the 

8 potassium chloride and melt it down a little bit 

9 and get a dilute solution of potassium that could 

10 then be injected through the drip.

11 But for sure, the fish products are 

12 absolutely depended on by people who are drip 

13 irrigating organic vegetables. But it's not a 

14 tremendous source of potassium, as you alluded 

15 to.

16 MEMBER LEWIS: Okay, thank you.

17 DR. HAMLIN: Yes.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We really 

19 appreciate your comments today.

20 DR. HAMLIN: Thank you.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we're 

22 going to have Steve Ela followed by Ginny Olson 
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1 and then, Jefferson Dean.

2 Steve, please go ahead.

3 MR. ELA: All right, can you hear me, 

4 Nate?

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can, thank you.

6 MR. ELA: All right, good.

7 Well, howdy, everybody, here we go for 

8 another round. It's great to see all your faces.

9 My name is Steve Ela. I'm both a 

10 grower and representative of the National Organic 

11 Coalition. My position with NOC is to work 

12 directly with the NOSB on behalf of our members.

13 And I want to reiterate that NOC is a 

14 consensus organization. Our comments to you are 

15 the results of a 14 member process of shared 

16 ideas.

17 Today, I want to cover three topics, 

18 ion exchange filtration, surprise, the range of 

19 topics that are presented by stakeholders to the 

20 NOSB, and organic is climate smart and the 

21 related discussion on a universal OSP.

22 Food contact materials are inherently 
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1 designed to be inert with regards to their 

2 interaction with an organic food.

3 On the contrary, ion exchange resins 

4 are fundamentally designed to work in conjunction 

5 with recharge materials to alter the chemical 

6 makeup of the product being filtered.

7 They are ionically charged and they 

8 are not inert. And so, I would contend that that 

9 puts them in a different category from food 

10 contact substances.

11 Without significant testing, the 

12 organic community has no idea whether there is 

13 chemical leakage from resins into a product or 

14 not.

15 Many resins might be perfectly find 

16 but we do not know that. We continue to find 

17 that even minute quantities of certain materials 

18 can be detrimental to human health.

19 The recent EPA limitation on PFAS 

20 chemicals in drinking water is a case in point. 

21 And according to the TR perfluorinated compounds 

22 are used in some resins.
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1 Moving on, I'd like to address why we 

2 -- NOC gives a broad range of comments to the 

3 NOSB. NOC believes it's important for the NOSB 

4 to be a venue for stakeholder engagement with 

5 both the NOSB and the NOP.

6 While comments may address issues 

7 outside the immediate topics of discussion before 

8 the NOSB, they have relevance for past and future 

9 NOSB work. These comments range from 

10 informational background that gives Board Members 

11 information about the broader organic landscape 

12 to suggestions for future work agenda items, to 

13 references to past decisions that have not been 

14 acted upon.

15 We hope that Members will utilize the 

16 stakeholder knowledge of past NOSB actions and 

17 decisions and recognize that the NOSB is a 

18 primary public forum for organic stakeholders to 

19 give input to the NOP and the USDA.

20 You are an important conduit for this 

21 wonderful community and help shape our own 

22 future.
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1 As has already been noted, NOC concurs 

2 with other that the proposal that organic is 

3 climate smart references soil growing systems.

4 We also ask that the call for 

5 universal OSP be separated from the climate smart 

6 discussion.

7 While we can see value and a common 

8 framework for the OSP, it's important to make 

9 sure that all OSPs get to the heart of why a 

10 producer is doing something not just what they 

11 are doing.

12 An OSP must be rich with knowledge and 

13 information and justifications for practices.

14 Furthermore, universal OSP can work to 

15 force certifiers to certify practices that are 

16 outside their comfort zone.

17 I don't have time right now to give 

18 comments on the equity discussions about in 

19 person oral comments, but I'd be happy to address 

20 some of that if we have a chance.

21 With this, I'd like to -- as a member 

22 of the National Organic Coalition, I'd like to 
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1 finish with a knock-knock joke.

2 So, Nate, knock-knock.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Who's there?

4 MR. ELA: Ion.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Ion who?

6 MR. ELA: I and others don't want you 

7 to change the transparency and everyone knowing 

8 the materials used in organic processes for the 

9 filtration of only certifiers and handles having 

10 that information.

11 Let stakeholders be able to evaluate 

12 materials themselves.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well done.

14 Any questions for Steve?

15 Kyla and then Dilip.

16 MEMBER SMITH: The FDA websites are 

17 public. So, is that information being behind a 

18 firewall to certifiers when that is a public 

19 database available to everybody?

20 MR. ELA: Yes, it is public, but the 

21 problem is, is how do we know what of those many 

22 materials are actually being used?
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1 It's the same problem with the inerts. 

2 How many inerts are in the, you know, the public 

3 database? Hundreds.

4 And organic, you know, is only used in 

5 some. And so, for an organic stakeholder to go 

6 to the USDA website and realize that an organic 

7 handler is using a specific materials is almost 

8 impossible.

9 So, what we're really would like to 

10 see is have transparency and have a list, you 

11 know, even if you -- if you don't list the 

12 resins, at least let us know what they are so we 

13 can have a chance to evaluate them and give our 

14 input rather than having that be behind some kind 

15 of firewall.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

17 ahead?

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Steve, hi, welcome. 

19 Thank you for joining us today.

20 I believe you're the last NOC 

21 representative that's speaking and in oral 

22 comments. So, you get the brunt of my two 
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1 questions here just so I can better understand 

2 NOC's written comments and their opinion.

3 So, I know it's kind of an aggregated 

4 format, but your name is signed to these. So, I 

5 hope that you will know these answers.

6 The first one's about potassium 

7 sorbate and I was just curious, NOC's position 

8 with the -- was that there was limited efficacy 

9 data.

10 And some of the industry standards 

11 that were used in the petition to do some of the 

12 research and analysis were not necessarily what 

13 NOC claimed were general industry standards.

14 So, when I look back at some of the 

15 testing that was done or the products, a couple 

16 active ingredients that I found was wettable 

17 sulfur and also -- or sulfur that was wettable 

18 and then potassium, aqueous potassium silicate.

19 Are there other products that we --

20 that should have been used then from NOC's 

21 opinion there?

22 MR. ELA: Yes, that's a great 
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1 question, Amy.

2 And one of the issues we have, well, a 

3 couple issues is, one, is the technical report 

4 wasn't actually publically released until pretty 

5 late in the comment process.

6 So, I'll be honest, we did not have a 

7 chance to read that and fully evaluate it. So, 

8 there may be information in the TR that is not 

9 part of our comments. And so, that's one reason 

10 we actually asked for the discussion to be 

11 continued so we can read that extensive TR.

12 But in the petition itself, at least 

13 one of the products, and I can speak both as a 

14 grower and for NOC comments, one of those 

15 products is not a product I would use on my farm 

16 anyhow.

17 So, it's, you know, it may be an 

18 industry standard because it's out there and 

19 listed for use, but it's not one I would choose 

20 to use, in part, because of efficacy issues.

21 So, I guess we'd like to see, and it 

22 may be in the TR, I honestly don't know, we'd 
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1 like to see more efficacy data to show it as 

2 actually essential.

3 Sulfur is a big one, of course. 

4 Cooper is another one, aqueous potassium 

5 silicate, and then, we use -- there are some 

6 other biologicals that are useful.

7 But really, sulfur is a big one for us

8 with respect to powdery mildew.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison?

10 (Simultaneous Speaking.)

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sorry, were you 

12 done?

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Oh, I had a second one, 

14 but Allison, take over.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh no, go ahead, 

16 no, no, no, go ahead, finish yours, Amy, and 

17 then, we'll move on. I just heard a pregnant 

18 pause, so I want to keep us moving.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, anyway, 

20 consistent location or consistent location 

21 information that we're trying to get some 

22 additional opinions on, NOC had mentioned that 
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1 for ten years, they've ran into significant 

2 roadblocks just being able to geolocate some 

3 fields, and this was from the dairy perspective.

4 So, I wanted to really parcel out that 

5 information a lot more. It talked about that 

6 dairy farmers end up changing or adding to their 

7 field list frequently, if they leased fields, and 

8 it's just really hard to track where these fields 

9 are at.

10 And I was just wondering, I mean, I'm 

11 not a dairy farmer myself, but on my OSP, I have 

12 to be able to define of my leased land, have to 

13 be able to articulate where it is.

14 And then, there's field history and a 

15 long list of questions that I have to answer.

16 So, I was just wondering if there was 

17 challenges also from a certifying point of view 

18 to get the field level information for previous 

19 field use and things like that, if the location 

20 data was truly a challenge?

21 MR. ELA: And, thank you, Amy, with 

22 respect to that particular reference, that was in 
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1 the plain community where the use of technology 

2 is low or even frowned upon.

3 So, that change of fields, especially 

4 previous field history if somebody -- because of 

5 religious beliefs or whatever, somebody doesn't 

6 believe in using technology and it's hard to give 

7 GPS coordinates for a field that wasn't required 

8 to have that before.

9 I also think that, you know, the NOC 

10 comments really -- the problem we had was to just 

11 geolocate a field, if it's larger, isn't that 

12 hard. But when you get down to specialty crop 

13 growers, on my 100-acre farm, I have 40 different 

14 blocks that I manage.

15 And so, to geolocate each one, and 

16 they change, and I'm a perennial fruit grower, 

17 not an annual fruit person, it gets really hard 

18 to micro manage that.

19 So, I think we're just asking for some 

20 scale issues, some risk issues. But, you know, 

21 in general, yes, we need to know where the fields 

22 are, if that can be done. But let's not get too 
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1 down in the weeds on it, and especially with 

2 religious communities.

3 I think OEFFA brought up the issue of 

4 having inspectors that are from the plain 

5 community that also may not believe in technology 

6 and that, you know, that limits the use of those 

7 inspectors if they're being asked to try and 

8 geolocate fields.

9 So, it's not that we're completely 

10 against it, it's just that there are some devil 

11 in the details of how to implement and whether 

12 it's looking at a farm or on a per crop basis or 

13 a per variety basis of how far down in the --

14 well, not in the weeds you go, but in the crops 

15 you go.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: And just to clarify, 

17 it's not on a per farm or a per crop basis. So, 

18 the geolocation should never move of that farm, 

19 essentially.

20 MR. ELA: Yes, we just want a 

21 clarification to make sure that we didn't get 

22 down into an area that was just going to be 
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1 onerous for the certifier and for the grower 

2 themselves.

3 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you, Steve, 

4 I really appreciate it.

5 MR. ELA: Thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison, please go 

7 ahead.

8 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks for your 

9 comments, Steve.

10 I have two questions for you, so 

11 first, on ion exchange. You can probably hear 

12 from my questions, the thing that I've been 

13 grappling with is a concern that it'd be good to 

14 have more information about these resins, but as 

15 a practical matter, don't want to open the door 

16 to scrutinizing every substance that comes into 

17 contact with a product if it's not intended to 

18 have a functional effect in the product that it's 

19 being used with.

20 And so, it sounds like NOC is drawing 

21 a distinction with the resins because there is a 

22 charge to them.
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1 And I'm curious if you are aware of 

2 any other processing equipment or materials where 

3 that might be a similar distinction. It's not a 

4 way that I had thought about it until you said 

5 that. So, I appreciated the comment and would 

6 like to think through it a little bit more.

7 MR. ELA: Yes, sure.

8 I mean, I think, you know, for me, and 

9 you know, we're a handler as well on our own 

10 operations and NOC members are as well, is that, 

11 you know, food contact substance generally is 

12 supposed to have the very, quote, unquote, inert 

13 in terms of its interaction with that whatever 

14 organic product's going through it.

15 And inherently, an ion exchange resin 

16 is supposed to have contact with that food so 

17 that the ions can be exchanged.

18 And so, to me, that puts it in a 

19 fundamentally different category.

20 The other thing is, and this is where 

21 we disagree with some of Gwen's comments, 

22 respectfully, because Gwen knows her stuff very 
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1 well, but our members found that -- and we put 

2 this in our comments last fall -- that the review 

3 process for a food contact substance really is 

4 kind of at the manufacturers discretion.

5 And so, they could ask for something 

6 to be listed as a food contact substance and 

7 there wasn't all that much rigorous testing.

8 The testing is done, you know, with 

9 some of the secondary food contact substances and 

10 some of these other issues. But we just felt 

11 like there should be more transparency.

12 You know, there's a lot of 

13 stakeholders out there that are really good 

14 chemists and really knowledgeable on this. If 

15 they know what the materials are, they can look 

16 at it and they may be perfectly fine, but to 

17 leave the barn door wide open and say we can use 

18 any resin without knowledge, you know, and to 

19 Kyla's question, you know, maybe 15 are used, 

20 maybe 30 are used, maybe 50 are used, but we just 

21 don't know which ones are going into organic 

22 products.
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1 And the same thing would be the 

2 problem with packaging materials. Nobody thought 

3 bisphenol A was going to be a problem. That was 

4 approved by FDA.

5 So, the organic community has a long 

6 history of being more restrictive than FDA 

7 practices and this is one where we feel that's 

8 important as well.

9 MEMBER JOHNSON: That's all, thank 

10 you.

11 If there's no questions, can I --

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh yes, go ahead, 

13 go ahead, yes.

14 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks.

15 Alice mentioned yesterday that you may 

16 be able to speak more to the questions that were 

17 raised around this balance between access through 

18 virtual public comments and the costs of 

19 traveling to NOSB meetings in person and the sort 

20 of access and privilege that may come with having 

21 the resources to be able to do that.

22 And I was curious if you could speak 
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1 to that today?

2 MR. ELA: Yes, certainly.

3 And I think, you know, one of NOC's 

4 goals is to create access in any way possible for 

5 people to participate with the Board.

6 And so, for some people it works well 

7 as a webinar. Some people prefer in person 

8 comments.

9 So, let's, you know, to us, it's 

10 having access in many different venues.

11 I heard last -- on Tuesday, you know, 

12 the $2,000 attendance for a meeting, you know, 

13 kind of being thrown around, that's not 

14 necessarily true. We had -- NOC offers 

15 scholarships for people to come to the in person 

16 meetings.

17 We had one person ask for $90 to be 

18 able to attend the in person meeting and that was 

19 going to make the difference between them coming 

20 and not. So, it's not $2,000 necessarily, it 

21 depends how you want to do it.

22 I also would say that some people --
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1 there's a very real difference between giving a 

2 comment in person and even by webinar. And it's 

3 kind of like voting, you know, you can vote in 

4 person, you can vote by mail. One person wants 

5 to do another one, one wants to do the other.

6 And when you're in front of the Board 

7 and you -- and giving those comments, it's a very 

8 visceral back and forth.

9 And I -- and we've seen people get 

10 hooked into that and saying, wow, what a powerful 

11 process to talk to the National Organic Standards 

12 Board and it keeps them involved in the future. 

13 And so, we feel that's very important.

14 And the other thing I'm just going to 

15 say is that you don't know what you don't know. 

16 This Board has not done in person oral comments.

17 Kyla has, Nate Lewis has been 

18 involved. But you know, give it a try for a 

19 couple times and see.

20 But I really have enough faith in you 

21 as Board Members and I have faith in the Board I 

22 was on that, you know, you're all smart people 
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1 and the undue influence, I think you see through 

2 that pretty quickly.

3 You have the ability to sift and 

4 filter, you know, comments and who's wanting one 

5 thing or another. But having that richness of 

6 the in person experience, it's just it's really 

7 powerful.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

9 ahead.

10 MEMBER LEWIS: Well, thanks for the 

11 compliment, Steve. I don't know if I'm 

12 necessarily a smart person, but I'll take it.

13 So, I just want to keep honing in the 

14 ion exchange resins and their proper place in the 

15 listing.

16 So, you know, it is my opinion that 

17 they are neither a processing aid nor an 

18 ingredient. And those are the two slots that we 

19 have for items on the national list.

20 And so, while I totally appreciate the 

21 need for transparency, that's what industry's 

22 founded on. And I take you at your word that 
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1 there are consumers out there who care which type 

2 of resin is in the ion exchange column that's 

3 filtering their juice or what have you.

4 I'm not convinced that the national 

5 list as it currently stands is the best tool for 

6 delivering that transparency. And I think it 

7 opens up a bigger issue on plastics, cutting 

8 boards, all the other food contact surfaces and 

9 substances that we do have in our process food 

10 industry.

11 But that's what I'm trying to wrestle 

12 with and I'm curious your thought on like what is 

13 the best way to provide that transparency since 

14 the tool we have, the national list, doesn't 

15 really seem to fit the nature of the substance 

16 resins at this point. At least that's my opinion 

17 and I'm curious your reaction to that?

18 MR. ELA: Yes, I mean, we've gone 

19 round and round and when I was on the Board as 

20 well, secondary through contact substance, food, 

21 you know, or secondary food additive, food 

22 contact substance.
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1 You know, the NOP went to FDA and 

2 asked them to clarify that. And they basically 

3 said, we really can't. They gave a very nebulous 

4 answer.

5 And to me, that nebulous answer back 

6 from FDA was the key. They don't have a good 

7 classification for these. It depends on what 

8 somebody wants to ask for.

9 We already list charcoal. We already 

10 list some of these other physical filtration 

11 devices. So, it doesn't seem to me to be that 

12 out of line to say that this -- that these 

13 actually should be listed.

14 I truly feel they are fundamentally 

15 different than just a straight food contact 

16 substance because they are designed to be 

17 interactive with the product. They are designed 

18 to have that, you know, that ion exchange 

19 surface. And that is very different than what a 

20 normal food contact surface is.

21 So, you know, it's a gray area, 

22 there's no doubt. And the three and a half or 
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1 four years of deliberations have very much 

2 exposed that it's not a slam dunk.

3 So, I -- because of that, I tend to 

4 fall on the side of transparency. And you know, 

5 let stakeholders be educated. Let them give 

6 feedback.

7 But without knowledge, you're putting 

8 all the onus on the stakeholders to try and 

9 figure out what resins are being used and if 

10 there might be a problem after they're being 

11 used.

12 And once they're being used, it's 

13 almost impossible to get rid of them. So, we'd 

14 rather have there be and up front process in the 

15 evaluation.

16 MEMBER LEWIS: Thanks for clarifying 

17 that opinion, I appreciate it.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla, please go 

19 ahead.

20 MEMBER SMITH: What's the difference 

21 on the national list of any material and whether 

22 or not it's being used? No one knows. The 
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1 certifier does and the inspector knows, but the 

2 public does not know what specific materials 

3 you're using on your farm.

4 They can look at the list and see 

5 everything and they can look at the food -- the 

6 FDA food contact substance database and see all 

7 of the things that are allowed.

8 That's -- they would have the same 

9 visibility on whether or not they are listed on 

10 the FDA list versus the national list.

11 So, what's the difference?

12 MR. ELA: So, I can only use things 

13 that are on the national list on my farm if I'm 

14 going to use a synthetic.

15 So, you do -- you narrow down the 

16 number of things that are possible very quickly 

17 there.

18 In terms -- and again, I mean, I said 

19 why I feel that they are different and why NOC 

20 members feel that these are different than actual 

21 food contact substances. And you can buy that 

22 agreement or not.
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1 But I think they are fundamentally 

2 different because they do interact with the food 

3 product.

4 So, I guess it does, you know, the 

5 national list does narrow things down for people. 

6 It does limit the number of things that are both 

7 used and that the stakeholder evaluates versus 

8 going to, you know, and FDA list that is -- I 

9 don't know how many substances are on that and I 

10 have no way to parse that out.

11 So, I mean, on IOSP, you know, I have 

12 to justify when I'm going to use something and 

13 it's -- I think it's pretty transparent.

14 I may not be answering your question 

15 quite the way you're asking it, but I'm trying.

16 MEMBER SMITH: Yes, I mean, the same 

17 would be true to of an operating using a resin. 

18 They would have to justify it and then the 

19 certifier would be evaluating whether or not it 

20 was on this closed list of an FDA -- within an 

21 FDA database.

22 And then, I had another question.
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1 MR. ELA: I'm just trying to narrow 

2 down the number of things that people can 

3 evaluate and having knowledge of what is actually 

4 being used.

5 MEMBER SMITH: Oh, the other thing I 

6 was just going to clarify is that in the FDA 

7 response back, they had advised us to use our own 

8 definitions and that's what the proposal is 

9 doing.

10 Thanks.

11 MR. ELA: Yes, and respectfully, our 

12 members disagree with that. And so, you know, 

13 and it, you know, it's obviously a gray area and 

14 it's obviously been a long debate.

15 So, you know, we're going to fall on 

16 the side of transparency.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have another 

18 question for you from Kim.

19 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi, Steve, just a 

20 quick question, I'm going to shift gears 

21 completely here.

22 We've heard a lot of comments back and 
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1 forth about how -- what platforms to use for 

2 public comment and what is fair, what is 

3 equitable.

4 And I've heard a few people within NOC 

5 say that there's scholarships that are offered.

6 But I'm just curious, are the 

7 scholarships offered to anybody or just NOC 

8 members?

9 MR. ELA: Anybody, yes, they are not 

10 limited to NOC members. Since NOC membership is 

11 -- are organizations and are affiliates, not 

12 individual people, and those scholarships are for 

13 local farmers to be able to attend those 

14 meetings. So, it's an open ended process.

15 And you know, I'm just going to say, I 

16 have to say it because the NOSB is such a cool 

17 venue for organic stakeholders to have input and 

18 it's one of the more notable boards of USDA 

19 because of that.

20 And having a room full of people there 

21 really brings home to USDA what you guys are 

22 doing and the stakeholder input.
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1 And having in person public comments 

2 fills that room up and that may not be the only 

3 reason, but it gives you guys an ability to do 

4 things that you might not otherwise have. And I 

5 think that's just really important.

6 It's a very visceral demonstration of 

7 stakeholder involvement. And the groups that are 

8 there, you know, I represent NOC and other 

9 people, OTA, other OFA, all these other groups.

10 They are bringing voices of farmers 

11 and consumers to that table in that room.

12 And so, you know, I push back on the 

13 influence peddling of that. I think it's much 

14 more dynamic and much more open than that.

15 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thanks, Steve.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

17 questions for Steve?

18 (No response.)

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we 

20 appreciate your time.

21 MR. ELA: Look forward to seeing you 

22 all next week. Take care.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Take care.

2 Next up, we have Ginny Olson followed 

3 by Jefferson Dean and then, Justin Raikes.

4 And after Justin, we're going to take 

5 a break, folks.

6 MS. OLSON: I have a quick question, 

7 do I move the slide then or does somebody move it 

8 for me?

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Somebody will move 

10 it for you, just say next slide when you're 

11 ready.

12 MS. OLSON: Great, okay. And then --

13 okay.

14 So, hello, my name is Ginny Olson and 

15 I'm a crop insurance agent. I've been selling 

16 crop insurance for over 20 years.

17 Next slide, please?

18 Okay, so transitioning to organic is a 

19 huge financial risk, especially if it's a new 

20 grower.

21 So, typically, a farmer is assigned a 

22 county T yield and the conventional T yields are 
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1 quite higher than organic. And so, in my slide 

2 here, you'll see that conventional corn has 194 

3 bushel T yield, whereas transition corn has a 136 

4 bushel.

5 Next to the county T yield, there's 

6 also the values of the crop. So, you can see how 

7 much lower the transition is valued at.

8 Why this is significant is that 

9 lenders look at this value to determine if they 

10 will give an operating loan to the farmer so that 

11 he can transition to organic.

12 Next slide, please?

13 Actually, sorry, can I back up one?

14 One of the possible solutions for this 

15 would be to provide the producer with the option 

16 to buy up their transition or organic T yield.

17 So, take their historical conventional 

18 yields and combine it with the county T yields 

19 and give the option to buy up their T yield.

20 Next slide?

21 Claims, the big thing with claims is 

22 that organic claims are worked the same way as 
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1 conventional claims are, which means quality can 

2 be vastly different.

3 So, if there is no yield loss, but the 

4 organic buyer deems the organic grain has damage 

5 and won't purchase it, the farmer is forced to 

6 sell the organic food grade as feed grade, which 

7 is a huge loss for them.

8 And so, what I'm recommending is that, 

9 instead of using conventional guidelines to work 

10 organic claims, why not create quality adjustment 

11 factors to reflect more organically.

12 Or look at the price contract to 

13 determine what the quality should be and then 

14 work the organic claims off that.

15 Next slide, please?

16 This one, enterprise units, this is 

17 huge. What we really need is enterprise units by 

18 planting practice. So, we need EU by 

19 conventional, EU by transition, and EU by 

20 organic.

21 That way, the farmers can keep all of 

22 their acres on one policy and not have to take 
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1 out two different policies.

2 Next slide, please?

3 The NOP guidelines do not match RMAs. 

4 This is very frustrating for farmers. So, for 

5 example, this fall, if a farmer is considered 

6 transition right now, and this fall, he'll be 

7 organic, I have to insure him as transition and 

8 he can sell the crop as organic this fall.

9 I can't insure him as organic until 

10 next year.

11 The other thing is, is the crop 

12 insurance rules do not match USDA's but NOPs, so 

13 we --

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead and 

15 finish.

16 MS. OLSON: Okay, thank you.

17 So, the farmers, I've asked the 

18 farmers to submit their certificates by July 15th 

19 and they oftentimes do not get them until the 

20 fall.

21 Crop insurance rules require that you 

22 have that contract in place before you file a 
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1 claim. So, if it's a fall claim, no big deal. 

2 But if it's prevent plant, replant, or if they 

3 want to destroy their crop, they have to have 

4 that certificate in hand.

5 And my recommendation is could we like 

6 consolidate? Could RMA and NOP get together and 

7 consolidate the rules?

8 Thank you.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

10 Oh, I'm taking those slides and 

11 reviewing them three more times, that was great. 

12 Really appreciate you coming to speak with us.

13 Kim has a question for you.

14 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi, Ginny, thank you 

15 so much for the slides that you've presented and 

16 also the solutions that you suggested. I think 

17 that's very helpful.

18 My question is around quality. And 

19 so, if I used a conventional product versus an 

20 organic product and we're trying to determine 

21 quality, can you expand a little bit more what 

22 you were -- what you mean by the varying degrees 
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1 and how they should be not equitable between 

2 conventional and organic?

3 MS. OLSON: Sure.

4 So, I'll use corn because that's 

5 probably the easiest one, or well, okay, all 

6 crops are easy when it comes to organics.

7 The test weight is a huge, huge -- I 

8 see a huge difference in test weight. And then, 

9 I also see a huge difference in just like the 

10 kernel or whatever they consider as damage.

11 What would be accepted as conventional 

12 is not necessarily accepted as organic.

13 And so --

14 MEMBER HUSEMAN: So, are you saying 

15 that organic has stricter test weight and the 

16 damaged kernel or is it feed grade versus food 

17 grade quality?

18 MS. OLSON: The feed and food is the 

19 big one. So, Amy can help me answer this because 

20 now I should have your example up. That happened 

21 to us a couple years ago.

22 But the food and feed grade, that's a 
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1 huge thing. I guess where it's frustrating for 

2 me is that we're stuck on the fact that, okay, 

3 you've got the yield out there. So, go sell it.

4 You know, so a conventional corn 

5 grower can sell it, you know, for ethanol. But 

6 does an organic corn grower really want to sell 

7 it as ethanol? But they're probably going to 

8 have to because it was reduced down.

9 The buyer, you know, the buyer won't 

10 accept it.

11 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Right --

12 MS. OLSON: And so, the farmer --

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Could I offer one 

14 example possibly something from my field to crops 

15 to see if it lines up with what you're saying?

16 If I have a contact for 13 percent 

17 protein organic wheat, but then, I have to -- for 

18 some reason, I get a lot of moisture and that 

19 protein content goes down, it only hits 9 percent 

20 which is not really going to make food grade in 

21 most applications for baking.

22 It'll go into the feed market and 
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1 there may not even be a feed market for organic 

2 available to me.

3 So, we have a gap of insurance where 

4 we don't have products that really cover us given 

5 all of the scenarios that may happen in a given 

6 season.

7 MS. OLSON: Absolutely, absolutely. 

8 Because when they're working the claim, they're 

9 looking at the quality, right, to determine if 

10 your yield is going to be decreased.

11 And so, they can apply the same 

12 conventional quality factors to it and your yield 

13 might decrease a little, but it doesn't take into 

14 account what happens to you when you try to sell 

15 it.

16 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay.

17 Yes, so, and I can be -- I mean, on 

18 board with it would take it out of, I'll say, 

19 organic status from a selling perspective. 

20 But let's take like aflatoxin, for 

21 example, you know, if the rules are -- I can see 

22 a -- if the rules are the same for conventional 
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1 as they are organic and it falls outside of that 

2 spectrum, from a quality perspective, I struggle 

3 with redefining the rules just for organic 

4 because quality can impact regardless if it's 

5 organic or conventional.

6 If it has a 50-pound test weight, it 

7 becomes a problem in a feed formula, I'm see that 

8 with aflatoxin or if it's going to be used for 

9 milling wheat or if it's going to be used for 

10 feed wheat.

11 So, I just wanted to -- I see where 

12 you're coming from and some of the perspectives 

13 you have as far as it would fall out of organic 

14 status based off of a quality or if it's just --

15 MS. OLSON: You know, I'm sorry, I'm 

16 interrupting, but you know what? I don't know if 

17 that -- I guess I go back to the days like way 

18 back when I used to insure sugar beets and 

19 potatoes and, you know, I do canning crops, 

20 right? We have process for contracts. The 

21 adjusters have to refer to those.

22 So, what I'm saying is, could -- would 
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1 RMA entertain looking at the contract?

2 So, if a farmer has a contract and it 

3 outlines what's expected of them to deliver, you 

4 know, could we play within that guideline? Not 

5 necessarily reinvent the wheel, I'm not saying 

6 that. I'm just saying, hey, there might be a 

7 simplistic solution here.

8 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Awesome.

9 Your information's been very valuable 

10 today and I really appreciate you coming on and 

11 taking the time to spend with us.

12 So, thank you.

13 MS. OLSON: Yes, thank you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One quick question 

15 for you, Ginny.

16 In this scenario that Kim was 

17 exploring with you, in a big tent sense, it 

18 doesn't have to just be organic. We could have 

19 this contract addendum for quality B conventional 

20 as well.

21 If you lose the opportunity to sell 

22 food grade conventional, you're going to lose 
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1 value even in conventional or organics.

2 So, kind of, it can be anything for 

3 anybody, right? It doesn't have to just be 

4 organic. Would you agree with that?

5 MS. OLSON: Depending upon the crop, 

6 yes.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay, yes, yes.

8 All right, we really, again, 

9 appreciate your information and expertise today.

10 Thank you.

11 MS. OLSON: Thank you, have a good 

12 one.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

14 Jefferson Dean followed by Justin Raikes and then 

15 we are going to break.

16 After the break, we're going to have 

17 Alexis Dragovich, Harriet Behar, and then, Bryce 

18 Irlbeck.

19 So, Jefferson, please go ahead.

20 MR. DEAN: Hello, I'm Jefferson Dean. 

21 I'm an organic grain farmer. I farm with my 

22 son, Timberlane Organic Farms.
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1 I've been certified 30 years now and 

2 I'm certified through OFA. And I'm also active 

3 with OFA and the OFA Organic Grain Growers 

4 Chapter.

5 First of all, I'd like to thank all 

6 the Board Members for their service in NOSB. 

7 It's -- I'm sure it's a lot of work and not a lot 

8 of reward. So, I appreciate that.

9 Unfortunately, I think your 

10 predecessors kind of did you a disservice by not 

11 addressing a lot of issues early on.

12 One of the issues is these meetings 

13 and the time frame for them. You know, they set 

14 this up a long time ago to have these meetings in 

15 the spring and the fall and most of us farmers 

16 are busy.

17 And it's very aggravating to us to 

18 take off time, you know, it's a beautiful, sunny 

19 day here and I should be out on the tractor right 

20 now. And here I am, you know, figuring out what 

21 I'm going to say and how I'm going to say it, and 

22 you know, participating.
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1 And I appreciate participating. In 

2 fact, I -- my first time speaking to an NOSB was 

3 through a NOC scholarship in Colorado a few years 

4 ago. So, you know --

5 And I believe the in person meetings 

6 are very important and can't stress that enough.

7 So, I would like to see some kind of a 

8 change in how farmers can participate in the 

9 meetings. I'm sure a lot of farmers out there 

10 right now that would love to have their input. 

11 And they just can't. They're just too busy.

12 You know, this time of year, we do the 

13 same thing in the fall all over again.

14 And I've been talking about this issue 

15 for quite a while.

16 I think Corey Struck's idea of having 

17 a winter listening session is a great idea. It's 

18 a great step and maybe you guys can take that and 

19 run with it.

20 Maybe if you had more farmer 

21 intervention in the beginning, and I'm not saying 

22 you Board Members, because this goes way back, 
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1 maybe we wouldn't have this issue with the 

2 hydroponics being certified when they don't deal 

3 with soil.

4 You know, and right in the organic 

5 regulations, it says we're required to have soil 

6 and build soil and have crop rotation and 

7 everything we need to have healthy soil and 

8 healthy crops so we have healthy people from 

9 organic food.

10 And here, you know, we're certifying 

11 hydroponic operations that don't have soil. It 

12 doesn't make any sense.

13 Maybe, you know, we needed more farmer 

14 input back then, I don't know.

15 You know, it took ten years for, you 

16 know, to write the regulations. You know, it 

17 took a long time and they purposefully made a few 

18 exceptions for crops without soil, some seedlings 

19 and stuff.

20 They did not make any exception for 

21 hydroponics. You know, that was on purpose. 

22 It's ten years of everybody talking about it. So 
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1 --

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate your 

3 comments.

4 Any questions for Jefferson?

5 (No response.)

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I just have one 

7 quick question for you, Jefferson. We've heard 

8 very consistent messaging from NOC and from OFA, 

9 I think both of whom are kind of aligned in this 

10 messaging.

11 We have a very finite amount of time 

12 to fix a lot of problems in the world as like a 

13 species. We've got a lot of things staring us 

14 down.

15 How do we not lose the forest for the 

16 trees, taking time to comment about structure? I 

17 liken it to, how do we go into a building and 

18 solve the world's problems rather than looking 

19 around saying we don't like the color of the 

20 paint inside?

21 And so, when folks are coming to bring 

22 us ideas, and this is something I request to 
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1 everyone, bring us your big ideas. I think, you 

2 know, you have brought this up many times, but we 

3 didn't get the chance to hear, what is actually 

4 harming your farm?

5 You've kind of taken on the wedge 

6 issues like hydroponics, but what's actually a 

7 challenge on your farm as a grain producer in the 

8 Mid-Atlantic Region? What's causing you pain and 

9 what can we do about it?

10 And so, I would love to have you and 

11 all the farmers that you come with send us these 

12 ideas. I love the idea of a listening session. 

13 I think it's great. But what would you say 

14 during that listening session?

15 I think we talk constantly about how 

16 do we get more farmers' voice, but we don't 

17 necessarily hear from farmers those really well18 articulated solutions from what they'd like us to 

19 do. What is our mandate? And send us forward. 

20 So, the more we can get that, the more we can do 

21 with it.

22 MR. DEAN: One of the things I would 
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1 like to say, the only thing that we have as 

2 organic producers is our integrity. And when we 

3 have things certified that are not organic, the 

4 rest of the world points it out.

5 That's the first thing that goes to, 

6 they say, oh, these guys are using this, they're 

7 doing that and try to shoot down our integrity. 

8 And that's all we have. And that's what we rely 

9 on.

10 That's all the industry has. And if 

11 that is hurt by certifying things that aren't 

12 organic, then it hurts us. It hurts the whole 

13 industry.

14 So, yes, I know it's a wedge issue, 

15 but it's very important that we uphold the 

16 integrity of organic so that we can continue as 

17 an industry and continue to sell our crops.

18 Because if we can't sell our crops, 

19 you know, with the organic label, then we won't 

20 be organic farmers any more.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Have you heard or 

22 have you experienced any loss as a grain farmer 
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1 or any conventional farmers to hydroponics? And 

2 have you experienced any customers coming to you 

3 saying that they feel like they've lost integrity 

4 due to hydroponics being certified?

5 And if you do, I would love a summary 

6 of those descriptions.

7 MR. DEAN: I can't speak to that 

8 personally right now. I have had instances with 

9 consumers in talking about that and other -- many 

10 times, other grain producers pointing out all the 

11 kinds of little intricacies like hydroponics, you 

12 know, many times.

13 And a lot of times, it's like, well, 

14 there's no sense in transitioning, you know, my 

15 fields because it's not really organic anyway. 

16 Look at all the stuff they allow, that type of 

17 thing.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, well, 

19 we always appreciate your comments. Thank you 

20 for making the time. I hear it's a sunny day in 

21 Ohio, so thank you for stepping away from the 

22 field.
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1 MR. DEAN: Beautiful weather, thank 

2 you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, all right, be 

4 well, thank you.

5 Next up, we have Justin Raikes, and 

6 then we're going to take a break.

7 After Justin, we have Alexis 

8 Dragovich.

9 Justin, please go ahead.

10 MR. RAIKES: All right, how about now?

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

12 MR. RAIKES: Perfect, thanks. Well, 

13 hey, thank you to the NOSB Board. I know that, 

14 yes, this is a big time commitment.

15 Justin Raikes from Ashland, Nebraska. 

16 You guys, you know, make possible what we do, so 

17 appreciate all that.

18 We're a fifth generation grain farm on 

19 2,500 acres going into year five of organic. We 

20 produce corn, soybeans, alfalfa, rye, triticale 

21 and buckwheat, some seeds, some other forages, 

22 and we raise some conventional cattle as well.
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1 You know, we owe our continued 

2 existence and success to the organic program and 

3 really become the leaders in its fundamental 

4 principles. So, again, just want to say thank 

5 you to all of you.

6 We also want to continue to grow in 

7 this program, both on the livestock side and with 

8 further product areas.

9 Two areas, and I'll try to brief, I 

10 know I'm the last one before our break, the first 

11 one, we strongly, strongly encourage the Board to 

12 continue to work towards, you know, parity and 

13 enforcement on the import side. That is an area 

14 of direct harm to us.

15 We are 100 percent supporters of 

16 geotagging. You know, agree with previous 

17 comments made on this. It's an issue of 

18 integrity, which is really fundamental to 

19 everything that we're doing here.

20 We can't have a system where we're 

21 staring down the barrel of going to prison for 

22 fraud if we cheat or do something like that. And 
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1 there is, you know, absolutely no corresponding 

2 penalty of any kind to any importer who's 

3 actively doing the same thing.

4 So, we are all in favor of parity in 

5 the standards and enforcement in any and all ways 

6 possible. You know, geotagging, like I said, a 

7 100 percent in favor of.

8 And then, you know, any other ideas to 

9 add information to the certificate that the Board 

10 thinks will work.

11 There's -- I'll cut my comments on 

12 this really short, there's been a lot of good 

13 discussion on crop insurance, really agree with 

14 several of the last speakers.

15 The percent of APH approach, I think 

16 is -- that's a good idea. And if there'd been a, 

17 you know, I think Ginny had a bunch of great 

18 suggestions. Just want to continue to encourage 

19 you guys to keep working in that area.

20 You know, there was a little bit of 

21 discussion about what it would take to bring more 

22 producers in. And honestly, I think the crop 
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1 insurance thing is kind of a big deal on that.

2 You know, there's probably a lot of 

3 issues that would prevent Midwest grain people 

4 from continuing to come in.

5 You know, the risk management thing is 

6 a big deal. They're going to be staring down the 

7 barrel of, you know, looking at, you know, a 

8 really strong APH they've spent 20-plus years 

9 building and then have to throw that in the 

10 garbage to start over and do organic.

11 So, again, appreciate you guys, 

12 everything you do. And I'll cut it there.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we appreciate 

14 you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

15 Questions from the Board?

16 Amy, please go ahead.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, thank you, Nate, 

18 and thanks, Justin, for joining us here today. 

19 Appreciate your comments, I really take them to 

20 heart.

21 The one question I do have for you on 

22 the risk management, you mentioned the incredible 
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1 amount of diversity that you have in your fields.

2 I was just curious, are you able to 

3 get crop insurance for all of those rotational 

4 crops outside of corn and soybeans, organic crop 

5 insurance?

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, you are muted, 

7 Justin.

8 MR. RAIKES: Here go, sorry.

9 Yes, no we are not, Amy.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: And then, on your corn 

11 and soybeans, and I know past speakers have 

12 talked about this, but the yields then which you 

13 have, is it the price that's a problem with the 

14 crop insurance on corn -- organic corn and soy or 

15 is it the actual level of coverage?

16 MR. RAIKES: I would say it's the 

17 level of coverage. Yes, I think the T yield hit 

18 that you take is significant. And then, you 

19 know, you're ability to carry forward any, you 

20 know, any previous history at all.

21 I mean, the complete restart, I think, 

22 is a real challenge. And what it has done is 
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1 forced a self-selecting group of people who are, 

2 you know, very risk on and how they look at life 

3 maybe and how they look at their operations, and 

4 say, you know, let's screw it, we'll just throw 

5 all that in the trash and give this a shot and 

6 take what comes.

7 And so, you know, if we want to expand 

8 beyond that, I think that the reality is the, you 

9 know, the APH thing is a big deal.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Justin.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We really 

12 appreciate you joining us today, Justin. Thank 

13 you for your comments.

14 All right, folks, let's take a break. 

15 We'll come back in ten minutes. So, ten minutes 

16 to the next hour, hope you get some water and 

17 we'll see you here in just a bit.

18 After the break, we're going to have 

19 Alexis Dragovich, Harriet Behar, and Bryce 

20 Irlbeck.

21 All right, see you in a bit.

22 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 
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1 went off the record at 2:40 p.m. and resumed at 

2 2:50 p.m.)

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Alrighty, Alexis, 

4 when you are ready, the floor is yours. Please 

5 go ahead and state your name and affiliation, and 

6 can't wait to hear your comments.

7 MS. DRAGOVICH: Hi, I'm Alexis 

8 Dragovich. I'm with Mud Run Farm, and I'm also 

9 an OFA member. I'm from Northeast Ohio, and I'm 

10 a second-generation farmer and I co-manage a 

11 certified organic farm with my dad.

12 Since 2007, we have been certified for 

13 vegetables, row crops and chicken eggs, and in 

14 2020 we obtained the certified Hamlin certificate 

15 when we started an on-farm flour mill.

16 We sell direct to consumers via 

17 farmer's markets and independent grocers.

18 As you can imagine and everyone has 

19 been talking about, this is a really busy time 

20 for us and other farmers, and to be honest, I 

21 almost failed on presenting any comments here 

22 today, because it's currently 77 degrees, sunny 
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1 and dry outside, and I'm still a little out of 

2 breath because I ran up here, because I almost 

3 bailed again because this session is running 90 

4 minutes behind. But I'm here, I'm a little out 

5 of breath, and am okay.

6 But I decided against it because there 

7 are some things that I care about, first of those 

8 being farmers access to these types of 

9 conversations.

10 Spring and fall are less than ideal 

11 when you are competing with the weather and have 

12 short windows to get things done, as well as 

13 sprinkling my passion and attention elsewhere, as 

14 I'm thinking about all that needs to be 

15 accomplished.

16 And not offer a November through March 

17 calendar, which could offer more inclusivity.

18 The next item I'd like to speak to is 

19 that of crop insurance.

20 Now, our farm does not use crop 

21 insurance. On our farm we instead focus on 

22 diversity. We don't have any one main cash crop, 
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1 which actually makes things a lot harder.

2 Different crops mean different 

3 planting and harvest times, different planting 

4 and harvest equipment, and it would be nice if 

5 there was crop insurance that was available for 

6 farms our size, so that we can utilize the safety 

7 net that works.

8 And my final comment is on that of 

9 hydroponics being certified organic. I was 

10 recently asked to be on a panel where we 

11 discussed things that the NOP has gotten right, 

12 and things that may have been wrong.

13 And the number one thing that was 

14 mentioned as what were right were the standards, 

15 the rules for all of us to follow.

16 And they are the same rules, no matter 

17 what you grow, or the size of the operation.

18 What are the standards for 

19 hydroponics? How can they comply with Citation 

20 205-203, soil fertility, and crop nutrition 

21 management, and how can they maintain or improve 

22 soil organic matter when they have none.
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1 On our farm, soil health and land 

2 stewardship offers a great sense of pride for us 

3 and something we work at everyday.

4 And as a consumer, when I buy 

5 something with the organic label, I assume that 

6 they were grown outside. And when I learned that 

7 they are actually grown in containers or in a 

8 building, it feels a little bit like a trick. My 

9 dad actually calls these CAFO lots for plants.

10 So, to us organics is all about the 

11 soil. And I think hydroponics does have a place 

12 in agriculture. I just don't think that place is 

13 in organics.

14 So, thank you for your time and your 

15 service to this Board.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And gosh dang, 

17 thank you for running of the hills to talk to us. 

18 That's great. I mean, that is huge.

19 MS. DRAGOVICH: Okay, so my face is 

20 all red and --

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's a moniker 

22 of pride. Nice work. Thank you for being able 
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1 to make it over.

2 Are there questions from the Board for 

3 Alexis? I just have a quick question for you, 

4 Alexis.

5 How does information flow to you from 

6 OFA? So, we had an exhaustive analysis done on 

7 the timing of the meeting, and unfortunately, it 

8 came to, for a lot of reasons -- given it being a 

9 national board and many other factors -- we 

10 landed on the only times that work are this 

11 April/October, which sets for all of us who are 

12 in the upper two-thirds of the country. But it's 

13 just sort of how it is.

14 Has OFA not explained that to you? Or 

15 what are you missing on that? I love the idea 

16 that all of you have said about the third listing 

17 session, but we did so much work -- it took a lot 

18 of Board time -- to do that analysis at the 

19 request of OFA farmers.

20 And it seems like that may not have 

21 made it back to you. I was just wondering if 

22 you've heard about that analysis?
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1 MS. DRAGOVICH: Yeah, OFA does great 

2 giving us information. It still doesn't work 

3 though. I mean, it's still planting season.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

5 Would you rather me to take a week away -- well 

6 actually, I have a theoretical for you.

7 If we had the in-person during April, 

8 is it easier for you to get here on Zoom, or 

9 would you be able to take a week away, if April 

10 and October are immovable?

11 MS. DRAGOVICH: Would I be able to 

12 take a week away in October, or in April? I 

13 mean, I don't know.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

15 MS. DRAGOVICH: Perhaps, probably not. 

16 I mean, if this April's like this April.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah. And so, do 

18 you feel like if your comment is heard now, along 

19 with everybody else's, virtually, that it's fair 

20 to all farmers, to some farmers who can get away, 

21 come and have their voices elevated by them 

22 giving in-person comments, given the timing of 
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1 this meeting?

2 MS. DRAGOVICH: I think of all the 

3 people that we're missing, that could be here if 

4 it wasn't in April.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So, just virtual 

6 versus in-person, if April's not up for debate. 

7 Well, do you feel like it's a point of equity to 

8 make it so that everybody can run in from their 

9 farms, call in from the tractor, and let their 

10 voice be heard?

11 MS. DRAGOVICH: Yes, I think that's 

12 important.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay, we really 

14 appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.

15 MS. DRAGOVICH: Thank you.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, next up 

17 we have Harriet Behar, followed by Bryce Irlbeck, 

18 and then Linley Dixon. Harriet?

19 MS. BEHAR: Can you hear me? Yes, I'm 

20 off mute.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, please go 

22 ahead.
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1 MS. BEHAR: Okay. Hello, my name is 

2 Harriet Behar, and I'm affiliated with the 

3 Organic Farmer's Association and the National 

4 Organic Coalition.

5 I'm a past chair of the NOSB, a 

6 long-time organic inspector advocate, and an 

7 organic farmer in Southwest Wisconsin, who just 

8 ran up from the greenhouse.

9 The petitioning process for 

10 ingredients listed on 205-606 needs to be 

11 improved.

12 The NOSB and the public should not 

13 have to spend their time reviewing an 

14 agricultural ingredient for 606 without a clear 

15 presentation by the petitioner, of what are the 

16 barriers to overcome other organic production for 

17 that ingredient, and what has been done by the 

18 petitioner to overcome those barriers, before 

19 they feel they should be listed as not 

20 commercially available.

21 In my written comments, I refer to NOP 

22 Guidance 3011, which should be improved to 
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1 include additional questions that must be 

2 answered in a petition.

3 Is there a need to pre-contract with 

4 organic growers? Do minimum runs at 

5 manufacturing facilities affect the availability? 

6 And what has been done to overcome this?

7 If the quality of the organic product 

8 is an issue, what is being done to work with 

9 suppliers to meet their product specifications?

10 These are just examples of what the 

11 petitioner should do, and not wait for the NOSB 

12 review of a petition, and then these questions 

13 are asked.

14 This improvement is needed to free up 

15 NOSB and NOP to deal with more complicated 

16 issues.

17 While more tools in the toolbox are 

18 seen sometimes as positive by many producers, I 

19 would like to challenge that assumption.

20 Unless the tools are systems-based 

21 approaches, and not just input substitution 

22 between non-organic and organic production, our 
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1 regulation requires cultural, mechanical, and 

2 biological activities be performed before the use 

3 of approved synthetics.

4 Organic agriculture respects and 

5 emulates natural systems, rather than 

6 manipulating the web of life.

7 Diverse crop rotations, improvement of 

8 the ecology, and biodiversity on the farm, all 

9 contribute to long-term success that I have seen 

10 and experienced on mature organic farms, instead 

11 of the destructive, toxic materials and GMOs used 

12 on most non-organics farms.

13 Reliance on an ever-increasing list of 

14 approved synthetics in organic discourages 

15 research and experimentation into the 

16 systems-based approaches that we need for 

17 long-term productivity.

18 I am not against all synthetics, but I 

19 encourage the NOSB to prioritize promotion of 

20 organic systems over materials, when you are 

21 reviewing.

22 Organic agriculture offers the wrong 
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1 solutions to many of our environmental woes. 

2 Continuous improvement is needed within the NOP 

3 regulations, to remove the incentive to destroy 

4 native ecosystems to more quickly access the 

5 organic market.

6 Inappropriate organic hydroponic 

7 systems, including the thousands of acres 

8 containers to produce perennial crops, needs to 

9 be added to the work agenda, using the ways of 

10 how they meet the band-aid of soil and 

11 biodiversity improvement, and not just that they 

12 use approved materials. Thank you.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate your 

14 comments. Any questions for Harriet from the 

15 Board? All right, Amy. Oh, sorry, not Amy. 

16 Mindee, please go ahead.

17 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you for your 

18 comments, Harriet. Do you think that updating 

19 the petition template would be the best way to 

20 address your suggestion?

21 MS. BEHAR: Yes.

22 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you.
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1 MS. BEHAR: And that it be returned to 

2 the petitioner if they haven't answered the 

3 questions.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

5 you, Harriet. We appreciate you.

6 MS. BEHAR: Back to the greenhouse.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All righty. Next 

8 up we have Bryce Irlbeck, followed by Linley 

9 Dixon, and then Tim Cada. Bryce, the floor is 

10 yours.

11 MR. IRLBECK: Thank you. My name is 

12 Bryce Irlbeck and I'm owner of AgriSecure, data 

13 apply and farm management. I've worked with 

14 farmers across the U.S. when we're getting 

15 certification, and also an organic farmer in Iowa 

16 and Nebraska.

17 I would first like to thank everybody 

18 on the Board for holding these comments and 

19 having them online, because the accessibility, as 

20 a farmer, is great. I don't have time to travel 

21 and do this, so I want to say thank you for doing 

22 this.
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1 And I could get onboard with changing 

2 time, but everybody's busy year-round, so you can 

3 change time a million times and not make 

4 everybody happy, but the accessibility has been 

5 great.

6 But today I want to talk about two 

7 things: strengthening the organic enforcements, 

8 and the foreign imports and the GO reference to 

9 those foreign imports.

10 And so, the first item is 

11 strengthening organic enforcement, and I believe 

12 we are headed in the right direction. We just 

13 need to move faster than we are right now.

14 And the way we're moving, and more 

15 paperwork, more documentation, that seems to not 

16 be working, in terms of from the American 

17 farmers' side and the import side.

18 So, I think there's other ways to do 

19 that, and we'll get to it later in the 

20 presentation. And if we do not move quickly, I 

21 have a fear. I work with farmers, and we are 

22 seeing a severe reduction of organic acres coming 
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1 down the pipeline, and I think that we'll 

2 continue to see that if we don't get this 

3 straightened out.

4 And just to put this in perspective, 

5 this morning I had had a higher bid on non-GMO 

6 soybeans and organic soybeans. And this is an 

7 economic type of situation.

8 The second part of this is GO 

9 referencing. I think it's just a small start, 

10 but I highly agree with it. I think it's a good 

11 thing to have and have as an organic producer, 

12 and as an organic certifier, to mark those fields 

13 and know where they are.

14 My next comments are going to be a bit 

15 facetious, but just kind of the overall thought 

16 process of what we're thinking about with 

17 stronger enforcement of organic.

18 But I'd like to have GO reference 

19 fields, because I'd like to go meet the producers 

20 that are producing for half the cost of what we 

21 can in the United States in some of these 

22 countries.
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1 I'd like to learn their economic ways, 

2 their technology and their expertise, that we 

3 just don't have in the United States because we 

4 can't produce them that cheap.

5 Again, I think we look at this as a 

6 picture. And I will read three countries that 

7 we're importing from right now: Togo, Africa; 

8 Ghana, Africa; and Tanzania, Africa, which is my 

9 favorite because I farm there and been there. I 

10 have a 12,000-acre rice farm there.

11 And just in order, Togo, 23.8 percent 

12 malnutrition; Ghana, 24.2; Tanzania, 34 percent 

13 malnutrition.

14 We are importing food from those 

15 nations that can't feed themselves. So, morally 

16 and socially, if we don't think it's fraudulent, 

17 then we are doing the right thing as organic 

18 producers, importers, in the whole system.

19 So, I will stop there. Again, I hope 

20 the higher picture is to look at this as the 

21 totality, and think about it.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We really 
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1 appreciate your comments and, again, as a farmer 

2 taking the time out of your busy schedule. I 

3 realize you probably have many other things to 

4 be, other places to be, and thank you for joining 

5 us. Questions for Bryce from the Board.

6 I have a quick question for you, 

7 Bryce. When we talk about the sort of the 

8 ethical obligation of possibly being a net 

9 importer of grain from food-insecure countries to 

10 feed our organic livestock, or our other 

11 ingredient industries, it seems like that's going 

12 to fall outside the scope of standards, which is 

13 what this Board is in charge of.

14 How do we start to think bigger than 

15 just this Board, as far as building coalitions to 

16 put pressure on the right agencies, the right 

17 aspects of USDA, and just the organic community 

18 in general, to start tackling issues that are as 

19 big as this?

20 MR. IRLBECK: Yeah, so I think there's 

21 multiple ways to do that. But as farmers, it's 

22 starting to make people aware. And farmers are 
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1 at the point where we are going to take it on 

2 ourselves to make people aware of what's going 

3 on.

4 And I think it's a social issue that 

5 drives down from the brands on down, that people 

6 are purchasing organic for the right reasons --

7 and I think they do -- but I don't think the 

8 brands would be happy to know where it's coming 

9 from and what we're doing in the importation of 

10 that from these third-world countries.

11 And so, I think it's a three-pronged 

12 approach, with brands, the farmers, and the 

13 regulatory people.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Really appreciate 

15 that.

16 MR. IRLBECK: These people in Tanzania 

17 and Togo -- I name a few of them, but there's a 

18 lot. There's a lot of countries like this. They 

19 aren't making more money because they're getting 

20 organic. It's not helping them out.

21 I've lived there and seen it. It is a 

22 handful of people getting rich moving products an 
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1 ocean. And I'm not going to say whether they're 

2 organic or not. We can all make up our minds on 

3 that.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy has a question 

5 for you.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Bryce, hi. Thanks for 

7 your time today. I just had a quick question. 

8 You had a lot that you conveyed to us. I 

9 appreciate your comments.

10 I wanted to ask about farmer retention 

11 you mentioned. I know you interact with a lot of 

12 producers, and you mentioned that we're losing 

13 acres.

14 Can you quantify that a little bit 

15 better for the Board?

16 MR. IRLBECK: Yes. So, I would say in 

17 our network, which is pretty large producers that 

18 spent a lot of money to get into it. It's ten to 

19 twenty percent of the acres.

20 And I would say on our own farm, we've 

21 already probably taken out ten percent of the 

22 acres. It just doesn't make sense -- not 
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1 economically, and not socially -- to do it for 

2 what we're doing. So, I'd say it's anywhere in 

3 between the ten to twenty percent.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin has a 

5 question for you.

6 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes, in some of the 

7 countries that you mentioned, one of the main 

8 things is that labor is a lot cheaper. Are there 

9 other reasons that you think makes the prices 

10 more competitive, apart from labor?

11 MR. IRLBECK: Yes, so I completely

12 understand the labor is cheaper. And then we 

13 cheapen up the product.

14 There's other things that are more 

15 expensive in those countries as well -- getting 

16 seed and fertilizer and technology, and all that 

17 stuff.

18 So, I think it's offsetting. And so, 

19 it's not clear to me why they can produce a lot 

20 cheaper. And in talking into some of those 

21 countries, I wonder if they're actually getting 

22 more for their grain organically than what we're 
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1 seeing.

2 So, I don't have a clear answer on why 

3 it is cheaper.

4 MEMBER QUARCOO: Thank you.

5 MR. IRLBECK: Yep.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

7 for Bryce. Bryce, just as a farmer, what do you 

8 see as one of the biggest opportunities to drive 

9 demand and expand the organic marketplace?

10 MR. IRLBECK: Stability. Instability. 

11 And it comes from chickens to dairies, to making 

12 milkshakes. Stability drives business.

13 And whether you have $40 soybeans, and 

14 then you go down to $20 soybeans, and it really 

15 drives the stability if people do not make -- and 

16 actually pull out of it, because the natural 

17 human reaction is, when it's unstable, you don't 

18 do it.

19 And so, it's along the entire chain. 

20 And that's not to say we can't import stuff. I 

21 think $20 soybeans are not profitable in the U.S. 

22 vast majority of operations. $25 to $35 works in 
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1 a lot of operations. It works with dairies, it 

2 works with chickens, it works with -- and that's 

3 probably where they should be, if you let the 

4 natural markets forces react to it.

5 And so we see these wild things from 

6 $20 to $40. They'll go back up to $40 sometimes 

7 when they shut down those routes that they've 

8 popped up after India.

9 And so, you're going to see these 

10 instability swings, and you're going to see 

11 people not invest into the marketplace.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Huge. Thank you 

13 for that. Kim has a question for you.

14 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yeah, just a quick 

15 follow-up question. And, Bryce, I really 

16 appreciate you coming on as a farmer today and 

17 speaking to us. Continue to grow those crops, 

18 please.

19 My question is, is it a target dollar 

20 figure that's creating the increase or decrease 

21 of acres, or is it relational to the other 

22 opportunity costs? And how can we attack back, 
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1 if that's possible?

2 MR. IRLBECK: Yeah, so it's always in 

3 relation to other opportunity costs. If I can 

4 grow non-GMO soybeans, and spend half of my 

5 personal time -- actually, probably 80 percent 

6 less than my time -- doing that at a higher 

7 dollar figure, in America we're going to do that. 

8 And that's just the capitalist way.

9 And so, it's priced in its 

10 relationship to what are the other opportunities 

11 in the growth. And so, I think it's both of 

12 those.

13 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Would it be helpful 

14 to have more marketing tools that would be 

15 aligned at a percentage above conventional? Do 

16 you think that would give some stability to the 

17 market?

18 MR. IRLBECK: I wouldn't be in favor 

19 of that. I'm in favor of free markets. And it's 

20 just if we enforce the rules that we have, free 

21 market would play.

22 And we can still import. I'm not 
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1 saying that those countries are in, some people 

2 are doing it right and some people are doing it 

3 wrong.

4 It's just when you dump more soybeans 

5 in the U.S. market than you can actually handle, 

6 you drop these prices down. And some of them 

7 aren't organic.

8 I'm not going to reference the 

9 percentage, but we get dumped on, and now organic 

10 is very difficult to make work on a farm, in 

11 terms of soybeans.

12 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thanks.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn has a 

14 question for you.

15 MR. IRLBECK: I think you might be on 

16 mute. There you go.

17 MEMBER DIMITRI: I've got it. Thank 

18 you, Bryce. I don't actually have a question. 

19 It's more of a comment. It seems like these 

20 issues that you raise have been embedded in our 

21 truth system for so long, and I think that's kind 

22 of where the original farm bill came in, trying 
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1 to help support farm viability and farm -- just 

2 like the existence of farms.

3 And as you were talking, I was 

4 thinking, maybe one thing that we -- like, I 

5 don't think this is anything any one of us can do 

6 anything about.

7 But it's like that tradeoff between 

8 having a resilient food system, versus one that 

9 sort of responds really quickly to changes in 

10 prices.

11 So, I think because we have this very 

12 natural response to price changes, which 

13 obviously they make sense, what we have at the 

14 end is so much less resiliency in our food 

15 system.

16 And, I mean, I think it's a huge 

17 social problem. And I personally don't have any 

18 of the answers for this. But I appreciate you 

19 bringing up the topic.

20 MR. IRLBECK: It's not an easy one, I 

21 can tell you that.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: But raising it is 
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1 so important. So, I really appreciate you 

2 bringing it to us. I think this is one of those 

3 issues that it doesn't happen overnight, but it 

4 does give us something to chew on.

5 If and when -- and this goes to all 

6 farmers and everybody on the call -- if and when 

7 you come up with solutions, send them to us. 

8 Like, we want your solutions, and we want to be 

9 able to try to do things with them.

10 So, we really appreciate the time, and 

11 the time it's taken to consider this and so 

12 clearly articulate the problem, Bryce. Really 

13 appreciate it.

14 MR. IRLBECK: Thank you. I appreciate 

15 every one.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, take 

17 care.

18 Next up we have Linley Dixon, followed 

19 by Tim Cada, and then Steve Spreinkel.

20 Linley, the floor is yours.

21 MS. DIXON: Perfect timing, speaking 

22 of solutions. My name is Linley Dixon. I'm the 
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1 co-director of the Real Organic Project. I own 

2 an organic vegetable farm in Southwest Colorado, 

3 specializing in soil-grown tomatoes, greens, 

4 cucumbers, peppers, berries, and herbs.

5 These are the most profitable crops 

6 for a diversified vegetable farm. They're also 

7 the same crops whose markets are being flooded 

8 with hydroponics certified as organic.

9 I'd be happy to talk about the 

10 economic impact in the Q&A.

11 The Real Organic Project was formed to 

12 provide greater transparency and integrity to the 

13 organic label. It was formed because right now 

14 we don't know if our organic blueberries come 

15 from operations that raise their container six 

16 inches above the land, on plastic stands, so they 

17 can spray prohibited herbicides immediately 

18 before getting certified.

19 These are the industry workarounds to 

20 the rules. And this is the insanity that results 

21 from certifying operations that don't foster 

22 healthy soils.
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1 Real Organic was formed because when 

2 we buy organic milk, we don't know if it's coming

3 from the ever-expanding CAFOs in the arid West.

4 Consumers want to support organic 

5 dairy without also depleting their aquifers. 

6 Consumers want to support organic dairies that 

7 don't get drought exemptions for the DMI grazing 

8 requirements year-after-year.

9 As wonderful as reform of the NOP 

10 would be, it's Real Organic Project's immediate 

11 goal to ensure that people can identify the food 

12 that they actually want to buy.

13 We've approved over 1,000 farms to our 

14 add-on standards. That number will continue to 

15 grow.

16 Our certified farmers include many 

17 farmer NOSB members, many organic pioneers, and 

18 new organic farmers, across the country.

19 Our soil health standards require what 

20 is actually written in the law. If you read 

21 OFPA, you know that organic is so much more than

22 food produced with inputs from the national list, 
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1 which is more and more what it's becoming.

2 We simply need better enforcement of 

3 OFPA from the NOP, and we need enforcement from 

4 the NOP on certifiers.

5 There are certifiers that would never 

6 approve the CAFO dairies that are certified by 

7 the Texas Department of Agriculture, organic 

8 certifiers, Oregon Tilth.

9 There are certifiers that would never 

10 certify disposable plastic container farms.

11 Instead of enforcing the law, the NOP 

12 is citing certifiers for refusing to certify 

13 these operations.

14 Remember, OFPA calls for the 

15 establishment of an NOSB not only to approve 

16 substances for the national list, but also to, 

17 quote, provide recommendations to the secretary 

18 regarding implementation of the act. Things have 

19 not gone well for a long time, and the community 

20 is skeptical about the future.

21 We're at a critical moment in organic. 

22 Farmers who can afford to, are walking away.
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1 But we're here. Real Organic has not 

2 walked away. Many of our farms depend on the 

3 organic seal, even though it no longer represents 

4 the way they farm.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

6 Linley? Allison, please go ahead.

7 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks so much for 

8 your comments, Linley. I'm in the, I guess, 

9 fortunate position of having joined the Board 

10 after this issue came up previously. So, I'm a 

11 new face in kind of uplinks. I've been following 

12 along, but don't have a position formed yet.

13 And you touched on one of the issues 

14 that I think is really important, and that I'm 

15 weighing as I'm listening to everyone today and 

16 on Tuesday, and looking through red lines.

17 And that is the issue of pesticide 

18 use. So, I care about organic for many reasons, 

19 but very high on the list is reducing use of 

20 pesticides.

21 And I'm curious what you think how the 

22 tradeoffs play out. If we're worried about 
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1 applying an herbicide before a hydroponic 

2 operation is set up, but then that operation 

3 cannot use pesticides to produce the products 

4 that it sells, if we take away the option of 

5 being certified organic, will they use those 

6 pesticides?

7 Are we losing an opportunity to at 

8 least reduce pesticide use, even if we're not 

9 maximizing the full potential of organic benefits 

10 in that operation?

11 MS. DIXON: No, there's a lot there. 

12 There's something that we've noticed, and that a 

13 little slogan that we say, which is, allowing a 

14 cheaper form of production actually ends up 

15 mandating it.

16 It doesn't create a bigger tent. It 

17 actually puts a lot of farmers out of business, 

18 and especially if it's not an organic production 

19 practice by law. We've seen it with CAFO poultry 

20 porches. It's very hard to find a pasture-raised 

21 organic egg out there.

22 So, you have this concept of 
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1 continuous improvement. If organic doesn't do 

2 it, another label will come out. There's lots of 

3 labels on the marketplace right now.

4 There's no reason why a hydroponic 

5 nose spray, or approved spray label, can't come 

6 out that differentiates themselves. It's simply 

7 not an organic way of producing food, and 

8 allowing it is mandating it.

9 So, to watch all of these organic 

10 farmers go out of business who are -- it takes 

11 money.

12 All we think about is how to foster 

13 our soils, the fertility in our soils, in an 

14 environmentally sustainable way.

15 Especially, we all got into this for 

16 principles, so talk about organic really being 

17 relevant and growing into the future.

18 Our last person who testified said it 

19 was stability. I believe it's integrity and 

20 continuing to improve in the face of climate 

21 change.

22 In the face of training aquifers, 
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1 organic needs to stay relevant. So, I don't 

2 believe it's going to result -- we also mentioned 

3 that they spray herbicides before putting the 

4 pots up. And also, they're spraying pesticides 

5 to transition greenhouses.

6 They take them out of organic 

7 production, can spray anything they want, and 

8 then put it back in.

9 So, it's just insane that this is not 

10 an organic system. It's definitely the result of 

11 no rules around how do we even have oversight 

12 over hydroponic systems? I'll stop there.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian has a 

14 question for you.

15 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Linley. 

16 Just wondering, I'd like to hear some of the 

17 specifics about impacts of hydroponic producers 

18 on your operation.

19 MS. DIXON: My operation in 

20 particular, so we compete, we wholesale cherry 

21 tomatoes, and so we compete in the marketplace 

22 for shelf space there.
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1 We definitely have not -- we had a 

2 boom right after COVID hit, and put in another 

3 greenhouse. And we have had trouble wholesaling 

4 those since COVID went away.

5 There are these weird spikes -- talk 

6 about resilience -- where all of a sudden the 

7 stores can't get cherry tomatoes, for some 

8 reason, from somewhere else.

9 And there's this huge demand for them 

10 and they give us a call. But we actually --

11 we're not going to expand our operation right 

12 now. Our markets are really, really tight, and 

13 they come and go.

14 We heard from another farmer that's 

15 part of the Real Organic Project, that sells 

16 cherry tomato pints twelve per flat or something, 

17 I'm not exactly sure how she phrased it.

18 But for twelve cherry tomato pints, it 

19 was $15 for those twelve pints. And she can't 

20 let it go below $15, in order to make it work, 

21 and it's now coming in below $15.

22 So, it's definitely impacting 
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1 soil-grown cherry tomatoes across the country. 

2 But we can actually start asking a lot more of 

3 that data before the fall, if you'd like, of our 

4 farmers.

5 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

7 questions for Linley? I have a good question for 

8 you, Linley.

9 We're thinking about the next version 

10 of organics. And I knew the Board getting 2.0, 

11 3.0, that's all already been taken sort of 

12 another name for it.

13 But realizing that standards aren't 

14 going to save us, standards are going to be a 

15 nice way for us to catalyze and organize.

16 But when we look at every conventional 

17 dairy that's gone out of business in Wisconsin, 

18 in Montana -- we used to have 1,300 areas in my 

19 valley, we have four now -- and there's bigger 

20 market issues that are plaguing us.

21 And it seems intellectually dishonest 

22 in our community to not tackle those, similar to 
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1 how -- and I don't know if this is a stretch --

2 saying to a worker, you should just get more 

3 education if you want to raise your wages, 

4 versus, you should just unionize, and then you'll 

5 be able to have some bargaining power.

6 At what point do we embrace collective 

7 action as a means to build selling power for 

8 farmers, versus throwing stones at each other and 

9 saying that some of us aren't as good as others?

10 And I think you can kind of bucket it 

11 as scale, right? Big vs. little, and little 

12 needs to get together. Needs to get together to 

13 be able to form some market power.

14 And so, how do we build that market 

15 power, and how do we build coalitions that says, 

16 we've got standards as one bucket, but -- and I'm 

17 here to tell you, not that hard to meet the 

18 30-day grazing rule. It's just not. It's pretty 

19 low.

20 So, lots of dairies could do it. 

21 Really big dairies. But is that the question? 

22 Or is the question, even if they can meet it, we 
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1 still deserve to have small dairies in business. 

2 We still deserve to have family farms. 

3 Actually, the reality for a lot of American

4 communities.

5 So, how do we expand our tent to make 

6 it so that we are working with coalitions who are 

7 thinking about organizing farmers, unionizing 

8 farmers, building market power, in addition to 

9 being organic?

10 MS. DIXON: Nate, that was a lot to 

11 respond to. I had many thoughts as you were 

12 speaking. Let's see what I can make of them all.

13 You brought up dairies. I guarantee 

14 you if we would get rid of those CAFOs in Texas 

15 and my home state of Colorado, we would see a lot 

16 more of those small dairy farms in Wisconsin. 

17 Mark Kastel gave very good data on that. So, 

18 it's important --

19 (Simultaneous speaking.)

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If I may, that 

21 doesn't answer my question, and just for time. 

22 So, say those folks are out. You're still going 
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1 to run into that we have very few options to keep 

2 small farms going.

3 Even there's no cheating in 

4 conventional. Everyone's got the same rules and 

5 the bigs still win. So, big is going to win if 

6 not given some sort of organizing.

7 So, how do we bring in that organizing 

8 component into our movement, to say that organic 

9 and organizing go together? There is a marriage 

10 there.

11 MS. DIXON: Yeah, I think Real Organic 

12 Project is doing that, so it's a great question. 

13 Maybe that's why you're asking me.

14 I think continuous improvement has 

15 always been part of the organic movement, and the 

16 NOSB was created to actually implement that 

17 continuous improvement from the organic 

18 stakeholders.

19 And when that started to go away when 

20 we actually saw it getting worse and the system 

21 not working, the organic farmers came together 

22 and said, okay, well, we could do this as a 
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1 standalone.

2 Many people wanted that, much like 

3 when OFPA was first formed, many people wanted to 

4 do this without the government. But we said, no, 

5 this is something that we need to do in order to 

6 get help from the government.

7 You've touched on a lot of things. I 

8 understand that capitalism is a problem. I'm not 

9 going to take down capitalism.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Never mind 

11 capitalism, but I just -- how do we -- I haven't 

12 heard Real Organic --

13 (Simultaneous speaking.)

14 MS. DIXON: You know, I think it's --

15 you spoke quite a bit, so I'll go ahead and 

16 respond.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I haven't heard 

18 Real Organic Project give a solution to how we 

19 organize, other than just the standards. Is 

20 there a way we go beyond the standards, instead 

21 of saying, organizing is tough. Forming co-ops, 

22 forming unions, tough.
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1 MS. DIXON: Well, I actually think we 

2 do organize beyond the standards. We put on all 

3 these symposia, and produce a lot of videos to 

4 educate the world about what organic means and 

5 the principles, and we form alliances around the 

6 world.

7 So, I think that was very much a part 

8 of the organic movement. I think we need to 

9 continue doing it. And I think when we started 

10 to lose that, the Real Organic Project formed.

11 So, we do do a lot more than just 

12 standards. We do a lot of educational and 

13 bringing the community together.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate your 

15 time today. Thank you. Next up we have Tim 

16 Cada, followed by Steve Spreinkel if you're on, 

17 and then Meggan Hain. Tim, if you're there, the 

18 floor is yours.

19 MR. CADA: Just listening to the last 

20 gal talk, integrity is 95 percent of organics. 

21 Anyway, my name is Tim Cada.

22 (Audio interference.)
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, we're losing 

2 you, Tim.

3 MR. CADA: Oh, can you hear me now?

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. You're 

5 very quiet. If it's --

6 (Audio interference.)

7 MR. CADA: If I could get off this 

8 speaker, I would. But I don't know how to do 

9 that.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All good. Go 

11 ahead, go ahead.

12 MR. CADA: Okay. My name is Tim Cada. 

13 My wife Kris and I converted our farm to 100 

14 percent organic in 1994. Our youngest son Matt 

15 has jumped onboard as of four years ago.

16 Today, we farm around 500 acres, and 

17 ranch a bit more. We're certified by OneCert and 

18 Real Organic.

19 I would like to talk crop insurance.

20 Dairy, wind and hail insurance, as we 

21 have those issues here in Northeast Nebraska, 

22 dairy PRF for rainfall, our dry land farmers, and 
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1 the only way we know to insure our alfalfa and 

2 pastures, dairy Federal Crop.

3 Federal Crop will cover our soybeans 

4 just fine. If we have a low yield, they write 

5 the check.

6 We insure our winter wheat with 

7 Federal Crop. Our yield has a lot of history. 

8 We cannot insure our spring wheat.

9 (Audio interference.)

10 -- food grain corn, primarily yellow, 

11 mostly blue the last few years.

12 Inter-production or revenue. I'm 

13 finding out, as (audio interference), those will 

14 not help us if we have an aflatoxin or a 

15 vomitoxin, or other disease problem.

16 Corn is corn in the Federal Crop 

17 Insurance's eyes. If we have a toxin problem, 

18 our corn is more or less unsellable. Contracts 

19 pricing does not help us.

20 Take a really bad year for our farm, 

21 therefore, we take whole farm income as well. 

22 It's pretty pricey, but it's our insurance 
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1 against our insurance.

2 Federal Crop does not help our 

3 contract pricing because of their conventional 

4 mentality. We pay their premium, but could be 

5 really hit hard if our crops meets their 

6 standards, and only their standards, not the 

7 food-grade buyer standards.

8 Now taken Federal Crop since 1982, 

9 organic started at the same rate as our federal 

10 crop did. Eventually, they added five percent 

11 for a few years, and now there's Federal Crop for 

12 organic. It's just not complete, in my opinion. 

13 It doesn't cover me good.

14 Organic and conventional both can have 

15 quality problems. Bryce was talking before --

16 and I don't know Bryce -- conventional problems 

17 usually aren't that big of a deal, because it 

18 might be a dollar or two difference in price 

19 between conventional and conventional food-grade, 

20 while organic can be up to 50 percent or more in 

21 price differential.

22 And if I'm counting on the organic 
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1 price and I have to sell it as conventional, that 

2 really, really hurts. Therefore, we go back to 

3 PRF insurance.

4 Last thing I'd like to say is blue 

5 corn is not considered corn by the USDA.

6 (Audio interference.)

7 Thank you for your time, you guys.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. And 

9 thank you so much for making it work. We really 

10 appreciate it. I think I caught most of 

11 everything, so if anyone has any questions, we 

12 can confirm with Jim, but Mindee, if you want to 

13 go and ask him a question, please go right ahead.

14 MEMBER JEFFERY: Yeah, Tim, thank you 

15 for your comment. I caught you at the part where 

16 you said, the last thing I'd like to say is blue 

17 corn is not considered corn by the USDA. And 

18 then I couldn't hear what you said after that. 

19 Would you mind reiterating?

20 MR. CADA: Red corn is corn. I think 

21 they consider blue corn an ornamental. There's a 

22 fair amount of people in Nebraska that grow blue 
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1 corn for correct specialty grades, and he ships 

2 it all around the world. It shouldn't be treated 

3 any differently.

4 MEMBER JEFFERY: Got it. Thank you so 

5 much, Tim.

6 MR. CADA: Yeah. Is this better?

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: This is so much 

8 better. Oh, gosh.

9 MR. CADA: I am so sorry, you guys. 

10 I'm not a genius on my phone yet.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not a worry. I 

12 think we mostly got it. Does anyone have any 

13 other questions while we've got a good signal 

14 from Tim? Oh, Nate Lewis has a question for you. 

15 Go ahead, Nate.

16 MEMBER LEWIS: Yeah, hi. Quickly, 

17 sorry, couldn't get my hand up quickly.

18 Tim, in the blue corn insurance case 

19 you said, have you all pursued a contract price 

20 addendum approach to that?

21 MR. CADA: I did. I get contract 

22 pricing every year. But if I would have an 
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1 aflatoxin in my corn and my buyer will not take 

2 it, it doesn't meet his quality, what am I going 

3 to do with, give or take, let's say 10,000 

4 bushels of blue corn?

5 I can go to my local feed yard, I can 

6 find an organic dairy someplace to buy it, but if 

7 they're going to buy my blue corn, I'm going to 

8 sell it at a really bad discount, because they 

9 know that I'm having problems moving my corn.

10 (Simultaneous speaking.)

11 Federal Crop, they will not pay my 

12 full contract. Well, they may pay the full 

13 contract price, but their standards are 

14 different.

15 You have the corn. That's all that we 

16 care. If you're going to key 100 bushel and 

17 acres, you can leave your 100 bushel and acres. 

18 They do not care about the quality.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Right. Kim has a 

20 question for you.

21 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thanks, Tim. I just 

22 want to clarify this point. So, from a quality 
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1 standpoint, let's use aflatoxin as an example.

2 Do you have the same quality standard 

3 for conventional aflatoxin as you do organic 

4 aflatoxin, I guess is what I'm trying to ask. Is 

5 there a --

6 MR. CADA: I believe we do.

7 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay.

8 MR. CADA: It's a very low number.

9 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Right. Because I 

10 know, like, in dairy there's only so much that 

11 can be accepted, because humans consume milk, and 

12 every species, there's just a certain amount that 

13 can be accepted, regardless if it's blue, white, 

14 red, yellow, number two, wheat food, I mean, 

15 there's standards, right?

16 Okay, and so from a quality 

17 standpoint, do you see discrepancies -- you said 

18 that you can, like, lose up to 50 percent of the 

19 value of your organic grain. Is that because 

20 you're selling it as conventional? Or is that 

21 because the quality scale is different for 

22 organic than it is for conventional?
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1 MR. CADA: Quality scale is a little 

2 bit different for organic. I mean, your buyer 

3 has such lines that you have to reach and meet. 

4 You know, fifty-six pound minimum corn.

5 But I can ask neighbors -- ten, eleven 

6 years ago, we had really bad aflatoxin 

7 everywhere. My buyer took his corn, and we were 

8 80 or 86 parts-per-million. There was a lot of 

9 that.

10 A lot of it's overlooked. I was lucky 

11 that year it didn't go for food-grade. Wasn't 

12 contracted that way.

13 Okay, what happened the next year is 

14 the blue corn or the white corn, my buyer 

15 wouldn't have taken it. Then it has to go for 

16 feed. I have to go farther for my market, so my 

17 shipping is going to cost me more.

18 And like I say, the dairy probably 

19 won't take the blue corn unless they're desperate 

20 and they know that there's an issue because I'm 

21 selling it for feed. So, we'll give you $5 for 

22 it instead of $10.
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1 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you for 

2 clarifying that, Tim. And good luck with 

3 planting this year. And I hope that everything 

4 goes very well with your crops.

5 MR. CADA: I hope it rains this year. 

6 Thank you.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, Tim, we 

8 appreciate you taking the time to talk to us 

9 today. Thank you. Next up we have Meggan Hain, 

10 followed by Joel Kurtz, and then Robert Rankin.

11 DR. HAIN: Perfect. Thank you very 

12 much. So, my name's Dr. Meggan Hain. I'm 

13 actually one of the veterinarians, and the animal 

14 care specialist at Organic Valley, where I'm 

15 responsible for upholding our animal health and 

16 welfare on our 1,700 organic certified livestock 

17 farms, in 32 states.

18 And it's in that capacity that I'm 

19 coming to talk about livestock sunsets that are 

20 under review by the NOSB.

21 Of the items that are under review, 

22 there's two that I wanted to address. First was 
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1 aspirin, which, along with other pain 

2 medications, current approve the use of organic 

3 as essential for controlling pain and preventing 

4 suffering. And I think maybe we should even 

5 consider adding additional pain control options.

6 The second item is vaccinations. So, 

7 as the NOSB reviews the continued use of 

8 vaccinations, I ask that they keep two key things 

9 in mind.

10 First, that vaccinations are still one 

11 of the safest and best tools for preventing 

12 disease and suffering, and then secondly, that 

13 there's never a good reason for allowing animals 

14 to suffer and die from something that's 

15 preventable.

16 So, many of our organic producers are 

17 already confused about vaccinations, so they 

18 don't know that vaccinations are actually allowed 

19 under organics right now. Many of them don't 

20 know what vaccinations are best for their herds, 

21 let alone having an understanding as to determine 

22 what the vaccine manufacturing methods are, and 
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1 whether they'd be allowed.

2 So, we already see too many herds that 

3 lose large numbers of animals from outbreaks, 

4 from things that could be prevented. And I 

5 really worry that if we put additional 

6 restrictions on, that we could see more.

7 So, on the question of excluded 

8 methods and active ingredients, or inactive 

9 ingredients, I feel that there is a concern 

10 related to these in releasing or decreasing their 

11 options that are available for farmers, if we do 

12 put restrictions in there.

13 By restricting excluded methods or 

14 ingredients, we could push farmers to have less 

15 options. By pushing for natural methods, we're 

16 also pushing towards things that are potentially 

17 less effective, or could be more reactive.

18 So, all vaccinations on the market 

19 right now go through extensive testing, to ensure 

20 that they're safe and effective. And it is 

21 actually this extensive testing that also makes 

22 it difficult for us to change the vaccine 
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1 markets.

2 So, I think by trying to push, like we 

3 did for the seed standard, and that for 

4 additional options, we're not going to change the 

5 market there.

6 It is also putting certifiers, if we 

7 put in restrictions, in a difficult position, 

8 because they don't necessarily know the methods 

9 of vaccine-making. And as a veterinarian, I also 

10 think we shouldn't put them in that position, 

11 because they're not in a position to prescribe or 

12 determine what's right for animal health.

13 Other international organic standards 

14 do not restrict excluded methods for 

15 vaccinations, because they recognize the 

16 importance of having effective vaccines.

17 As the NOSB reviews the vaccine use 

18 and guidance, I'd like to ask them to not make it 

19 more difficult than that for us and our farmers 

20 to prevent diseases.

21 So, thank you very much.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 
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1 comments. Questions for Dr. Hain.

2 Just a quick question for you. You 

3 were saying that producers are confused. How can 

4 NOSB, and I'd say even NOP, do a better of job of 

5 explaining vaccines?

6 Just as a quick anecdote, I think the 

7 first time that I was asked about my organic 

8 status as a 13-year-old at the Kennedy Fair, my 

9 provider said, that just being you're too lazy to 

10 vaccine, Nate. Is that what organic is? And the 

11 fact that possibly organic farmers might be not 

12 so clear either, how can we do better? What 

13 messaging can we use to make sure that the 

14 toolbox is known to farmers?

15 DR. HAIN: Certainly. And I think a 

16 lot of that falls on sort of our side. And for 

17 folks that are working within the organic 

18 industry and advising organic farmers, we can 

19 come out and say, right, this is what's allowed 

20 and not allowed.

21 What I'm asking from the NOSB is that 

22 we don't make it more complicated. As farmers, 
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1 as you guys all know, have a very limited 

2 capacity, and it's one thing to say, yes, this is 

3 allowed, or, no, it's not. It gets more 

4 difficult when you say, well, this is allowed, 

5 but not these methods.

6 So, I think we can do the education 

7 part. I'm just asking we don't make it more 

8 complicated.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, 

10 question for you from Kim.

11 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yeah, I'm actually 

12 going to break the rules here for just a second, 

13 Meggan. It's really not a question, but it's 

14 more of a shout-out.

15 I think having the voice of the 

16 veterinarian community is very valuable to us on 

17 the Board, and we don't get enough of that.

18 So, I appreciate you taking the time 

19 today to come and speak to us, and take your 

20 comments very wholeheartedly, and put weight into 

21 those. So, thank you very much for doing that 

22 today.
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1 DR. HAIN: I appreciate it. And we're 

2 doing everything we can to increase the organic 

3 knowledge across the veterinary industry as well, 

4 with sort of lectures at vet schools, and then 

5 veterinary organizations.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, we really 

7 appreciate your time today. Thank you so much 

8 for your presentation.

9 DR. HAIN: Thank you.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Take care. Next 

11 up we have Joel Kurtz, followed by Robert Rankin, 

12 and then James Swartzentruber. Joel, if you're 

13 there -- not popping up yet. Oh, yes, go ahead.

14 MR. KURTZ: Can you hear me now?

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yep, yep.

16 MR. KURTZ: Good. I'm concerned about 

17 my tablet, so I'm trying to do it by phone, if 

18 this works.

19 Anyway, Joel Kurtz is an agronomist at 

20 Maysville Elevator in sunny Ohio today. I'm also 

21 a contract inspector in the Plain community for 

22 OEFFA. I was a vegetable farmer and had a CSA in 
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1 the past.

2 Two comments I would like to share on. 

3 Number one is on consistent location 

4 identification. Although I understand the logic 

5 behind utilizing technology and using GPS data 

6 for consistency of certifiers, requiring GPS for 

7 individual field would create a burden to the 

8 producer, inspector, and certifier, and may be 

9 enough to encourage producers to find alternative 

10 non-certified markets because of increased cost 

11 and labor to meet this requirement.

12 For example, can producers change 

13 their field layouts -- we've heard about this 

14 before too -- based on crops grown each year?

15 Many farmers may have, like, five to 

16 twenty different fields that will change in field

17 size area, an area based on what crop is being 

18 grown each year.

19 So, if the center point of each field 

20 would need updating each year, along with the 

21 acreage, someone would need to step into the 

22 center of each field each year to update the 
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1 changes, which would create another layer of time 

2 consumption.

3 This is being done already on the 

4 updated maps sent to the certifier with renewal 

5 applications.

6 A single address, GPS location for the 

7 farm, with foyer maps, is what OFPA requires. I 

8 find that worked very well when I did the 

9 inspections, to find the farm and to find fields.

10 The next comment is on the 

11 hydroponics. Nutrition from microbial 

12 metabolites in soil is a big difference from 

13 ionic nutrition and hydroponics.

14 In light of nutritional integrity tied 

15 to organic production, I do not believe that 

16 hydroponics has a place in certified organic 

17 production.

18 In light of sustainability, if we 

19 continue to improve plants' immune function and 

20 nutritional integrity through soil health, this 

21 will allow crops within extreme weather to do 

22 much better.
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1 For example, many organic-influenced 

2 cells are high in aluminum, which is creating 

3 toxicity that prevents immune function and 

4 nutrient density in plants.

5 From a biological perspective, it 

6 would be evident that the microbiological content 

7 would be completely different in soil-grown crops 

8 compared to hydroponically grown crops.

9 Evidence would suggest that this has 

10 health implications. For example, food 

11 sensitivities and immune function, etc.

12 I thank the NOSB for the hard work 

13 they're doing and all the time they spend working 

14 these things out. Thank you.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. We 

16 really appreciate your comments. Any questions 

17 for Joel? Oh, go ahead, Amy.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, Nate, that's 

19 fine. I'll go after you for once.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just a quick 

21 question for you, Joel. I think we would be very 

22 interested in getting the language right in this 
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1 discussion document.

2 I think the word fields might be 

3 confusing. Would it be better if you use the 

4 word parcel? What we're saying, it's a legal 

5 entity, a legally defined boundary.

6 And you might subdivide it in many 

7 different ways in a given year, but you're not 

8 going to move on to your neighbor's side of the 

9 fence. Is that a better word to use, so that we 

10 kind of clear up this confusion?

11 Because you would have to conduct a 

12 subdivision with legal review to change the unit 

13 that we're describing in this paper. Would 

14 parcel make more sense?

15 MR. KURTZ: Exactly. I think it 

16 would. And I had a little bit of a question of 

17 that in my mind myself. So, the farm, from my 

18 perspective, is when we go out and inspect a 

19 farm, the farm has a physical address, a street 

20 address.

21 So, I use a GPS to find that street 

22 address. When I get there, there's the 
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1 application and OST already has a map of the 

2 fields for that farm.

3 So, one individual GPS location for 

4 that farm or parcel could very well be possible.

5 What I understood before, was that 

6 each individual field will need GPS coordinates 

7 to be able to be found. But I understand that 

8 this language is here. Thank you.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Super appreciate 

10 the clarification. We can definitely update 

11 that. I think, hearing from many, many folks 

12 this week, I think, wow, what the difference a 

13 word can make.

14 One more question for you -- and mad 

15 respect -- as a fellow inspector, that we don't 

16 want to overburden the process. Got a lot of 

17 work to do, it's a busy season every year.

18 So, when we're thinking about the 

19 value of being able to find these fields, and not 

20 -- at least around much of the country -- fields 

21 don't have addresses. This seemed to be a point 

22 of confusion for OFPA in the early part of our 
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1 discussion on Tuesday.

2 Fields don't have addresses. Houses 

3 have addresses. And most farm fields don't have 

4 houses, depending on where you're at in the 

5 country and your scale.

6 If I have 40 different fields, right 

7 now, as an inspector, I'm sort of reliant on the 

8 honesty of the producer to show me where that 

9 field is, relatively, especially with hand-drawn 

10 maps.

11 If we just have a drop pin, much like 

12 you would use to find the houses on your 

13 inspection, a drop pin for GEO location, on every 

14 legal parcel, does that seem like a fair 

15 expectation for standardizing the data gathered 

16 on where these fields are that are being 

17 certified.

18 MR. KURTZ: If those fields are away 

19 from the central location, from the main farm --

20 let's say that the field or the parcel is not 

21 combined, or not joined to the main central farm 

22 -- then yes, I can understand them having a pin 
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1 for that location. Exactly.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Super. We're 

3 going to update that as well. I love this 

4 clarification. Thank you so much for bearing 

5 with me. Amy has a question for you, and then 

6 Jerry.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, Joel, thank you 

8 so much for your time today calling in. And I'm 

9 glad that we worked through some of those 

10 clarifications.

11 So, thanks for working with Nate on 

12 that as well.

13 Joel, I wanted to ask you a question 

14 with members that have no access to technology, 

15 or low access to technology.

16 Is it common -- we've heard a couple 

17 of commenters mention the concept of legal 

18 address, so the township range section.

19 Or, also, there was another idea in 

20 written comments about using an assessor's parcel 

21 number (the APN) that you would work with at the 

22 county assessor's office.
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1 Are either of those two ideas 

2 workable, Joel?

3 MR. KURTZ: They certainly are. Ever 

4 property has a parcel number. Absolutely.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: Awesome. Thank you. I 

6 appreciate your time.

7 MR. KURTZ: You're welcome.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Joel, I'm just 

9 going to jump in one more time, Jerry, real 

10 quick.

11 Joel, how do we get better at 

12 organizing folks to come, when there's these very 

13 little things.

14 Like, the fact that I feel like 

15 there's been a placeholder for lack of 

16 technology. Sort of confusing, that folks in the 

17 Plain community still buy property. They still 

18 have these, deeds still have legal descriptions.

19 And so, I feel like it was a little 

20 bit of an underselling of -- there's a certain 

21 baseline that we all operate with. And how can 

22 we get better just kind of, like, speeding this 
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1 process up?

2 I feel like we're taken a lot of time 

3 when it was a one-word question. And hearing 

4 from you, this is actually going to work just 

5 fine. Any suggestions for how we can improve the 

6 process?

7 MR. KURTZ: I'm almost having to think 

8 to answer that one. But as far as improving the 

9 process, when somebody hears something from a 

10 regulatory agency, they're always thinking of the 

11 devil in the details. Right? Things behind the 

12 words that are being said.

13 So, I think maybe bringing out 

14 real-life examples how farms and situations may 

15 help. That's what drew our conversation here to 

16 what we're talking about was, actual, 

17 on-the-ground, real-life situations.

18 I was telling you from my perspective 

19 how I look at it when we go to the farm, and that 

20 brought the thought up in your mind of 

21 wood-knocking about the language issue here, 

22 whatever.
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1 So, I think bringing people together 

2 with actual scenarios of how this would work, 

3 when I read the paper here and the information on 

4 GEO location, it looked like a very complicated 

5 process that is being built, that will just 

6 simply be too much of a burden for people.

7 That's what it looked like when I read 

8 the information. It did not necessarily have 

9 on-the-ground, real-world example in there, of 

10 what people are looking at. If that helps.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely that 

12 helps. We can give you some examples, no 

13 problem. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. 

14 Jerry's got a question for you.

15 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah, hi Joel. I 

16 hear you very well now. It was sort of hard to 

17 hard to hear you when I was phoning in, on what I 

18 found to be very interesting, which is, I think, 

19 a comparison between hydroponics and organic on 

20 the end product, in terms of nutritional value.

21 And if I heard that right, I don't 

22 want the explanation now. I would just love to 
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1 have a way of getting the information to this 

2 team through Michelle, if that's possible.

3 MR. KURTZ: Getting that information 

4 to this team? Exactly.

5 So, the real information would come 

6 from testing. Correct? So, nutritional testing, 

7 if we're going to show data of microbial 

8 populations, we will have to go to the people who 

9 are doing that testing, to get the data.

10 Personally, I don't have that in hand 

11 now to give it to you. But it is being done, it 

12 is being tested, it can be tested, and so that 

13 information can be made available. I just don't 

14 have it in front of me, or the contact 

15 information.

16 MEMBER D'AMORE: Sure, sure. And I'm 

17 not asking for it. But I guess that now, my 

18 follow-on question is, is there someplace that I 

19 should be calling, rather than having you chase 

20 it down?

21 MR. KURTZ: Exactly. Start with 

22 Bionutrient Food Association.
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1 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you. Okay, 

2 perfect. I said Nate, thanks.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

4 you, Jerry. Any other questions for Joel?

5 Joel, this has not been the first time 

6 that you have been a wealth of information. So, 

7 really appreciate you joining us and providing so 

8 much insight. And thank you for your 

9 contributions.

10 MR. KURTZ: You're welcome. I should 

11 just mention that I was riding around. I do 

12 grounding work so I was driving around, meeting 

13 farmers today in between these meetings. It was 

14 not a day to interrupt the farmer. Sunny in 

15 Ohio. But we got it done. Thank you.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We hear you. It's 

17 the magic of the phone. All right, thank you, 

18 sir.

19 Next up we have Robert Rankin, 

20 followed by James Swartzentruber, and then, 

21 folks, we're going to break. So, Robert, if 

22 you're there, the floor is yours.
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1 MR. RANKIN: I'm here. Good 

2 afternoon, thank you. Robert Rankin, Executive 

3 Director, International Food Additives Council.

4 I first want to thank NOP staff for 

5 rearranging my talk from Tuesday to today, based 

6 on a last-minute conflict.

7 IFAC is an association representing 

8 manufacturers and end-users of food ingredients, 

9 including a number of substances permitted for 

10 use in organic handling.

11 As such, we strongly support the 

12 relisting of gellan gum and potassium chloride at 

13 205-605A, alginates, glycerides, mono- and 

14 di-phosphoric acid and xanthan gum at 205-605B, 

15 as well as gums, water-extracted-only, arabic, 

16 guar, locust bean and carob bean, and lecithin 

17 de-oiled at 205-606.

18 These ingredients are safe used in 

19 alignment with organic principles, and are 

20 essential to organic food crunching.

21 Gellan gum remains essential, based on 

22 its unique properties, to formulate products 
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1 across a wide range of applications, and because 

2 there is no commercially available source of 

3 organic gellan gum.

4 Potassium chloride is an important 

5 tool, introducing the sodium content of foods, 

6 and also will help to support U.S. policies 

7 around sodium reduction.

8 Alginates are a versatile ingredient 

9 that provide unique stabilizing and thickening 

10 properties.

11 In response to handling subcommittee 

12 questions, IFAC expects there will be increased 

13 organic community interest in sodium alginate in 

14 particular, based on its use in meat alternative 

15 products.

16 Mono- and diglycerides remain an 

17 important ingredient for the drum-drying of food. 

18 We are not aware of any alternatives for this 

19 application.

20 The use of phosphoric acid in various 

21 sanitizers and hard-surface cleaning applications 

22 remains essential, due to its functionality, 
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1 versatility, and food safety properties.

2 Xanthan gum has unique properties, 

3 including cold water solubility, viscosities, 

4 suspension, mouth-feel, and syneresis control, 

5 that continue to make it an essential ingredient.

6 Water-extracted gums, including gum 

7 arabic, guar gum and locust bean gum/carob bean 

8 gum, all have unique properties that make them 

9 essential. There are no commercially available 

10 organic forms of these gums.

11 De-oiled lecithin also remains 

12 essential for organic food production, while 

13 organic sunflower and canola oil are used to 

14 produce the oil lecithin. Supplies of these oils 

15 are limited, due to origination challenges.

16 In addition, by rule, only non-GM soy 

17 can be used as a source of de-oil lecithin in 

18 organic foods.

19 Thank you for your attention. That's 

20 all I got.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we 

22 appreciate you. Any questions for Robert? All 
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1 right, Robert, thank you for your time.

2 MR. RANKIN: Thanks, everyone.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Take care. Next 

4 up we have James Swartzentruber. Is James there? 

5 All right.

6 MR. SWARTZENTRUBER: Can you hear me? 

7 There we go.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can. 

9 Please go ahead.

10 MR. SWARTZENTRUBER: So, thank you for 

11 the opportunity to speak today. My name is James 

12 Swartzentruber. I work for Green Field Farms. 

13 We're a farmer-owned cooperative that markets 

14 organic vegetables for our members.

15 And I'd like to comment about the 

16 discussion on the geolocations. I had some notes 

17 and some thoughts on this.

18 But in the past hour, there have been 

19 some good conversation that's changed some, based 

20 on the conversation we've had. So, I'll go 

21 through, I had some notes, but I also have some 

22 other comments to add to previous conversations.
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1 So, like a lot of other small 

2 cooperatives, our farmers are certified organic. 

3 They have small acreage, two to fifteen acres of 

4 farmland.

5 We're located here in Wayne County, 

6 Ohio, and like a lot of the surrounding states, 

7 there's a lot of plain people -- Amish people, 

8 conservative Mennonite people, farm with horses, 

9 and we generally don't use technology -- cell 

10 phones, computers, Internet, GPS.

11 Here at the co-op office, we obviously 

12 do. You see me here, right?

13 But on the farms that's not used, up 

14 until now. It's relatively easy to comply on the 

15 farms using horses to farm, horse-drawn farm 

16 equipment, pen-and-paper for recordkeeping, and 

17 that's been very, very vital for us to continue 

18 farming in our communities.

19 We did see some issues with the GPS 

20 coordinates. We had a very good discussion here 

21 with Joel Kurtz. I know Joel, I appreciate Joel 

22 very much. He's just a couple of miles across 
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1 the road here.

2 The obvious issue in the Plain 

3 communities. So, obviously here in Wayne County, 

4 Ohio, is probably the largest Plain community, 

5 but Pennsylvania, Indiana, Wisconsin, there's a 

6 lot of communities throughout the United States.

7 Just simply, as simple as it may 

8 should to just drop a pen in the center of the 

9 parcel, or the field, or whatever, that would be 

10 an issue.

11 Just simply, how do you do that if you 

12 don't have the technology available to do it?

13 There's obviously the potential 

14 workaround. So, maybe the auditor or the 

15 certifier would do it. And then we need to 

16 managing a database.

17 So, there would definitely be a 

18 concern about, is adding cost for the organic 

19 farmer to their organic certification, would have 

20 to pay for that management, or additional tying 

21 it? The certifiers are already very busy, some 

22 of them almost to the point of being overwhelmed, 
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1 and the timely audits and timely certifications 

2 are obviously very important for the organic 

3 community.

4 If there was a technological 

5 requirement to maintain organic certification, 

6 there would be a huge percentage of the Plain 

7 community that could not certify.

8 And I see I'm out of time. So, I'll 

9 divert to questions. I'll just say I agree with 

10 what Joel and our conversation was on using 

11 partials.

12 I don't know how it is across the 

13 United States, but in Ohio every parcel has a 

14 parcel number. That's the simple part.

15 The more complicated thing I see is 

16 what if I farm half my parcel, and my neighbor 

17 rents the other half and farms that? And then 

18 you need to somehow manage that. Right?

19 That's where it becomes complicated, 

20 though I do see that being a very real -- and 

21 that happens. I mean, it happened within our 

22 co-op members.
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1 To farmer members that live 

2 side-by-side, this one has ten children, this one 

3 has two. The two-children guy has more land than 

4 the ten-children guy, so guess who benefits from 

5 that? They work together.

6 (Simultaneous speaking.)

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. And we so 

8 appreciate that point. Just to clarify, there is 

9 no technological requirements for certification 

10 for farmers. That has nothing to do with what it 

11 is. We worry that that has been conflated in 

12 this discussion.

13 As an inspector, it'll take me less 

14 than 30 seconds to drop a pin on your farm, as 

15 it'll take every single -- or for getting 

16 inspected with a smartphone.

17 And for those without a smartphone, 

18 we'll figure it out. Amy, please go ahead.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. James, thank you 

20 so much for joining us today and bringing us the 

21 point of view. I really appreciate it, and I'm 

22 glad we were able to clarify some points that 
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1 were confusing.

2 We actually were going to use the word 

3 parcel, and we thought that would be more 

4 questioned than the words that we chose. But 

5 we'll do their job in the future. That was great 

6 feedback with Joel to get some more concrete 

7 examples.

8 And I just wanted to make sure, it 

9 sounded like you agreed with what Joel said, but 

10 on the parcel, or -- is it the township range 

11 section? Is that common information as well? Or 

12 is a parcel number, is that more leveraged?

13 MR. SWARTZENTRUBER: The county parcel 

14 numbers is the public information in Ohio.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay.

16 MR. SWARTZENTRUBER: Around here. I 

17 don't know about the rest of the country, but 

18 around here that's easy public information, the 

19 parcel number. You go on our county auditor's 

20 website and you can find it if you know my name 

21 and the street I live on. That's easy.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you again. 
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1 I appreciate it. Thanks for the points about 

2 parcel splitting, and that was helpful to hear 

3 that as well.

4 MR. SWARTZENTRUBER: Definitely. 

5 Thanks.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well, 

7 we really appreciate you taking the time to be 

8 with us today, James, and for the comments. So, 

9 thank you very much.

10 MR. SWARTZENTRUBER: Absolutely. 

11 Thank you.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. With 

13 that, folks, we are going to take a ten-minute 

14 break. We'll be back eleven after the hour. 

15 We're going to start after the break with Kelly 

16 Skoda, followed by Aaron Zimmerman, and then 

17 Michael Hansen. So, see you all in ten minutes.

18 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

19 went off the record at 4:01 p.m. and resumed at 

20 4:11 p.m.)

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, folks, 

22 we are back. First up is going to be Kelly 
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1 Skoda, followed by Aaron Zimmerman, and then 

2 Michael Hansen.

3 Kelly, the floor is yours.

4 MS. SKODA: Can you hear me now?

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can, yes.

6 MS. SKODA: Good afternoon. I'm Kelly 

7 Skoda, a certification specialist at CROPP 

8 Cooperative. Thank you for the opportunity to 

9 speak today.

10 My comments are regarding sub-sets of 

11 handling substances on the national list, 

12 specifically gellan gum, and flavors at 605, and 

13 water-extracted gums, and de-oiled lecithin at 

14 606.

15 CROPP strived to use certified organic 

16 ingredients whenever possible to produce the 

17 highest quality products, and to meet consumer 

18 expectations for such, and crop limit fees for 

19 national list substances when possible.

20 However, gellan gum is one of these 

21 listed substances that is an important ingredient 

22 for us. It is used to maintain suspension and 
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1 creaminess, and it delivers more desirable 

2 viscosity and stability over other gums.

3 Gellan gum is used in Organic Valley 

4 heavy whipping cream, flavored creamers, 

5 chocolate milk, and seasonal egg nog, all of 

6 which are award winning and popular retail items. 

7 Our sweet cream and French vanilla creamers were 

8 recently awarded 2023 Product of the Year, USA, 

9 conducted by Kantar, the largest consumer-voted 

10 awards program highlighting product innovation 

11 and excellence.

12 At the 101st Los Angeles International 

13 dairy competition last week, heavy whipping 

14 cream, flavored creamers, and chocolate milk all 

15 received gold medals. Chocolate milk also 

16 received silver medal for best of class. The 

17 annual sales impact of these products with 2023 

18 projections is over $13 million retail units with 

19 $15 million in revenue.

20 The removal of gellan gum would have a 

21 significant impact on our business and our 

22 product line. We are unaware of any 
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1 environmental or health concerns with gellan gum. 

2 We are also unaware of organic available 

3 options. However, when available, we would run 

4 trials in our product formulas. At this time we 

5 support the continued listing of gellan gum.

6 Regarding flavors, we currently use 

7 organic flavors in formulas and do not have 

8 challenges sourcing these. However, if 

9 developing new products, and an organic flavor 

10 option is not available, we would use an approved 

11 non-organic flavor while working with vendors to 

12 develop an organic version. We support the 

13 continued listing of non-organic flavors to 

14 address organic unavailability.

15 Moving to water extracted gums, we use 

16 two of these, guar gum and locust bean gum, in 

17 Organic Valley egg bites and cottage cheese. 

18 However, we use organic versions of these gums. 

19 While we have been able to source organic guar 

20 gum and locust bean gums without issue, we 

21 continue to evaluate availability and have not 

22 yet determined whether to support re-listing or 
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1 removal of these gums. I look forward to our 

2 comments in the fall.

3 Lastly, de-oiled lecithin, CROPP uses 

4 organic sunflower lecithin and a glomeration of 

5 whey protein concentrate to increase solubility 

6 and product performance. The lecithin we 

7 purchase primarily comes from organic sunflowers 

8 grown in Ukraine. We did have supply chain 

9 challenges when the war began, however these 

10 challenges have since been alleviated.

11 The price of organic sunflower 

12 lecithin is drastically more expensive now, but 

13 availability has not been a concern. We will 

14 continue to evaluate availability and submit 

15 additional comments at the fall meeting. Thank 

16 you again for the opportunity to speak today.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate your 

18 comments. Questions for Kelly? Amy, please go 

19 ahead, followed by Kim.

20 MEMBER BRUCH: Kelly, hi. Thanks for 

21 your time today. I have kind of a broad-based 

22 question for you, because the world of dairy 
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1 really impacts us grain farmers. And you kind of 

2 you kind of were quantifying a little bit of the 

3 dairy industry in how, you know, if gums weren't 

4 available as a national list item, that would 

5 impact your industry.

6 But those numbers, you know, year to 

7 year are we growing market share in organic 

8 dairy, or what does that look like. Can you 

9 speak to that?

10 MS. SKODA: I can maybe speak to that, 

11 and maybe I can get you back some better answers. 

12 So in 2014 we had similar comments. During that 

13 time, we also had additional products that we 

14 have since discontinued. So compared to the 2014 

15 numbers we gave, it's actually a little bit 

16 less.

17 But I would say that we would like to 

18 see our market share growing. And these products 

19 that we -- like heavy whipping cream has been a 

20 really stable product for us for many years and

21 is one of our most popular retail items.

22 And I think we innovate, you know, we 
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1 continue to innovate. And so I think it's hard 

2 to say, but I can definitely try to, you know, 

3 bring you a better answer either next week or in 

4 a different way.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: Oh, I would really 

6 appreciate that. I'm sorry to put you on the 

7 spot with a question in a different area. I 

8 appreciate it, thank you.

9 MS. SKODA: Uh-huh.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim has a question 

11 for you.

12 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi, Kelly, I really 

13 appreciate you spending time with us today and 

14 your comments, both written and orally. On the 

15 topic of lecithin, have you tried to use, in your 

16 guy's production, other oil/seed origins, so 

17 either canola or soybean, or has it been very 

18 specific to sunflower?

19 MS. SKODA: That is another question 

20 that I could give you a definite answer, but what 

21 I believe is that we used to use sunflower, or 

22 sorry, soy lecithin. But since the industry, in 
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1 some regard, is trying to get away from that 

2 because of allergies, I realize there are also 

3 sunflower allergies, but I think more prominently 

4 there are soy allergies for folks.

5 So, yeah, again, I can get you a 

6 better answer on what we've tried as I consult 

7 with our product development team.

8 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you.

9 MS. SKODA: Yeah.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin has a 

11 question for you.

12 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes, in your written 

13 comment you noted that there is a discrepancy in 

14 the way phosphoric acid is listed as a cleaning 

15 agent, as a sanitizer. Can you throw more light 

16 on that end, ma'am? What you are suggesting --

17 MS. SKODA: Yeah.

18 MEMBER QUARCOO: -- as the best way to 

19 move forward?

20 MS. SKODA: Yeah, we actually reached 

21 out to Kyla about his earlier this week just to 

22 get further clarity. And I think that we were 
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1 unaware if certifiers are reviewing these 

2 products consistently.

3 And one of our questions was 

4 specifically to how phosphoric acid is listed as 

5 a cleaner on the national list. And, you know, 

6 it's specified as a cleaner, and why not list it 

7 as a sanitizer instead?

8 And so our understanding is, because 

9 it's on the national list, it should be used as, 

10 or it should be available and allowed as a last 

11 step product. But it opens the door for 

12 interpretation and confusion when it says 

13 cleaner.

14 And because phosphoric acid has both 

15 cleaning applications and sanitizer applications 

16 on some product labels, so it can be used as 

17 both. And so our questions were really to the 

18 Board on is there inconsistency in review in the 

19 industry, and is that why these questions are 

20 being asked if the annotation should be amended 

21 to provide more clarity. So I think we would 

22 like to see it's an annotation, provide more 
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1 clarity if there is confusion in the industry.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry has a 

3 question for you.

4 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you, Nate. 

5 Kelly, thank you for your comments. During your 

6 quick rundown on lecithin, I lost my way a little 

7 bit. So if you take Ukraine out of your supply, 

8 are you willing today to say that there is a, you 

9 know, a predictable, stable, availability of 

10 accessible supply?

11 How do you feel about that, also 

12 taking cost out of the equation too? Take the 

13 Ukraine out and take cost out. Can one expect to 

14 have a reliable source of supply?

15 MS. SKODA: I'm not sure. I think 

16 that a lot of sunflowers are grown in Ukraine or 

17 in other parts of Europe. And I'm not sure what 

18 domestic, you know, supply is like. So again, 

19 we can look into that. We are continuing to 

20 assess availability, and we've got, you know, a 

21 whole team dedicated to sourcing ingredients and 

22 looking at different vendors.
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1 MEMBER D'AMORE: Without leaving the 

2 witness here, so at this point would you be 

3 willing to say, hey, we're not robust about 

4 telling the world that we have a reliable source 

5 of supply?

6 MS. SKODA: Probably today, yes.

7 MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay, thank you so 

8 much, do appreciate it.

9 MS. SKODA: Uh-huh.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

11 for Kelly?

12 All right, we really appreciate your 

13 time today, Kelly. Thank you.

14 MS. SKODA: Thank you.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

16 Aaron Zimmerman followed by Michael Hanson, and 

17 then Megan Vaith.

18 MR. ZIMMERMAN: All right, you got me?

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we've 

20 got you. Please go ahead.

21 MR. ZIMMERMAN: All right, thank you. 

22 Hi, everybody, thanks for listening to all of us 
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1 today. I know this is a very big undertaking 

2 with all these voices you've got to hear.

3 I really don't have too much to say. 

4 I just wanted to talk about two things primarily, 

5 crop insurance and, I guess, well, let's just 

6 start there.

7 You know, we have about 2,500 acres in 

8 northeast Nebraska of certified, irrigated 

9 organic. We're about five years into it. I've 

10 been around chemicals my whole life, and I got to 

11 tell you, I'm never going back. This is a very, 

12 very exciting market.

13 But as far as the crop insurance goes, 

14 the little bit that I've seen that seems kind of 

15 strange to me is basically how it's calculated 

16 and, well, with the yield and what not. And I 

17 get the fact that it's a different practice.

18 So obviously you get X yield when 

19 you're doing it conventionally, and now when you 

20 go into organics it's different. I get that. So 

21 I have a standard, I mean, you would have to have 

22 the, you know, go off the county T yield which is 
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1 usually kind of crummy. I don't like or really 

2 understand why you do it that way.

3 When I do get through transitioning or 

4 become certified, I got to start back over with 

5 the county T yield again. So that's kind of a 

6 bummer, so it'd be nice if we can change that.

7 And then I guess, you know, 

8 enforcement and accountability, and I think you 

9 -- I was looking at the list here. There's a guy 

10 named Craig that's going to be speaking here 

11 later that has some really neat slides that I 

12 happened to get me eyes on.

13 And, I mean, I'm just a farmer from 

14 northeast Nebraska, I really don't know what's 

15 going on in the world, especially now that I'm in 

16 a new market, right. So when I started seeing 

17 how the grain flows across the globe it's just --

18 I was actually mad. Like, how are these 

19 countries that B- they just want food, even if 

20 it's out of a garbage can. You know, they don't 

21 even really care what it is. How are these guys 

22 growing organic food and sending it over to us?
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1 And I saw first hand what that does 

2 for a market. Because last summer we had, you 

3 know, 30-some, $40 soybeans. And all of a 

4 sudden, this market gets opened back up and it's, 

5 wham, we're back down in the lower 20s. That's a 

6 huge revenue fluctuation for me.

7 So think about -- And I think somebody 

8 was talking about, you know, consistency in a 

9 market. That's when something's crazy, and you 

10 can't get a bead on it, you know, for me as a 

11 producer I'm, like, okay, am I going to grow 

12 soybeans? I don't know if I want to. I think 

13 I'm going to grow something else, because I don't 

14 know if I can trust this market to actually be 

15 there when I come time to harvest it. So I guess 

16 that's my comment on that.

17 I wish I had a solution of how to, you 

18 know, deal with imports and have that 

19 accountability that I used hold. Now I'm just a 

20 small farmer from Nebraska. So that's really all 

21 I got, guys.

22 I appreciate it. If you have any 
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1 questions, I'll try my best to answer them.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well again, thank 

3 you so much for joining us today. Questions for 

4 -- oh, Amy's got a question for you.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: Aaron, thank you for 

6 joining us today. We really appreciate your 

7 comments on two really big, important issues.

8 I just wanted to ask you, you mention 

9 some of the challenges with the soybean market. 

10 And then we talked about crop insurance. So 

11 bringing those two together, what crop would you 

12 rotate into if you don't have soybeans? And 

13 would that, you know, for a legume, per se, in 

14 your county, and then would that have an 

15 insurable attribute under the Federal Crop 

16 Program?

17 MR. ZIMMERMAN: Well, see, that's it. 

18 I'm glad you kind of refreshed my memory. 

19 Because that's the only thing I'm learning, is 

20 here in Nebraska, I don't know, I can't speak for 

21 other states, but pretty much if you want 

22 insurance it's corn and soybeans.
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1 And with organics, I mean, corn and 

2 soybeans are just a drop in the bucket for what 

3 we can all grow. And so for us, where we would 

4 like to have grown a lot of soybeans this year, 

5 we've instead, we're going to try and do a double 

6 crop thing where we planted yellow peas. We just 

7 got done doing that a couple of weeks ago.

8 We're going to stake those out and if, 

9 you know, weather allows and everything looks 

10 right, we're going to follow it up with 

11 buckwheat. But, you know, neither of those crops 

12 are insurable. So I'm assuming a lot of risk, 

13 whereas I wouldn't have if I could have just done 

14 soybeans.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you for bringing 

16 up that point. I appreciate it.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim has a question 

18 for you.

19 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi, Aaron. Outside 

20 of crop insurance, what other risk management 

21 tools do you have?

22 MR. ZIMMERMAN: Ha, ha. You know, 
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1 anymore I don't rely too heavily on crop 

2 insurance. I think we just tried to do things 

3 the right way, you know, financially the right 

4 way, and trying not to live day to day, borrowing 

5 money at the bank. You know, I think that's the 

6 best thing, to systematically chip away so you 

7 really don't have much of an operating line of 

8 credit.

9 And so you can't afford to take risks, 

10 risks with other crops. That's probably the 

11 biggest thing. That's why it's really important 

12 to have these premiums in place for the organics, 

13 because there is a lot of risk. And you don't 

14 have much coverage with insurance, so it needs to 

15 be worth something to justify it.

16 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Right. Yeah, the 

17 volatility in the space is very significant, 

18 whether you're a producer, an end-user, a feeder 

19 of the animals, a consumer, et cetera. And I'm 

20 curious the other ways to close the gaps with a 

21 lot of the price volatility. So it's the reason 

22 why I asked the question. So thank you very 
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1 much.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

3 for Aaron?

4 Not wholly related to your comments, 

5 Aaron, but possibly tangential, could you speak a 

6 little bit to how is organic perceived in your 

7 banking community? When you're working with 

8 lenders, how hard is it to explain what organic 

9 is and if it's a good or risky bet?

10 MR. ZIMMERMAN: You know, I'm glad you 

11 brought that up. Because I think I've been 

12 pretty fortunate where I work with bankers that 

13 are pretty open minded. I actually kind of got 

14 pushed into this sector by my banker, because he 

15 had been seeing what some of the other producers 

16 were, you know, obviously they see the numbers 

17 on the back end, right. And they're, like you 

18 really need to look into this.

19 And it's been something I've been 

20 thinking about for many years, because I've been 

21 eating organically myself. And then I see myself 

22 going out and spraying chemicals on other 
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1 people's food. It just doesn't make sense.

2 So they finally gave me the nudge, and 

3 they actually worked with me. I think we did 

4 interest only payments for the transition years, 

5 so that kind of helped, you know, bridge that gap 

6 because it is -- But you need to have that 

7 barrier to entry because, well, A, it makes sure 

8 the people that are in it are serious, and 

9 they're not going to just going to bounce in and 

10 out, you know, which way ever the wind blows.

11 So no, that actually worked out really 

12 well. And I think, by and large, I think 

13 bankers, they see that that's kind of the future. 

14 And so I think, in my opinion, they're 

15 supportive.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Awesome. That's 

17 great to hear. I really appreciate that insight, 

18 yeah. As much as we can, I mean, we have a lot 

19 of work ahead of us trying to figure out how to 

20 catalyze more folks into organic.

21 But these boring pieces that are not 

22 wedge issues, this might be what actually 
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1 catalyze us getting into organic. And so things 

2 like banking, insurance, not super-sexy, but very 

3 important, so thank you for your insight on that. 

4 All right, appreciate your comments today.

5 MR. ZIMMERMAN: Thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up -- thank 

7 you, we have Michael Hansen, followed by Megan 

8 Vaith, and then Byron Wiemer. Michael, please go 

9 ahead.

10 MR. HANSEN: Hello, I'm Michael 

11 Hansen, senior scientist for Consumer Reports, an 

12 independent non-profit organization that works 

13 side by side with consumers to create a fair, 

14 safer, and healthier marketplace.

15 I will speak on the excluded materials 

16 document on the four techniques. First, 

17 eco-tilling is not an excluded method, since no 

18 mutagens are used. Tilling where the mutagen is 

19 environmental stress is also not an excluded 

20 method since such stresses are naturally 

21 occurring.

22 Tilling where chemicals or irradiation 
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1 are used as a mutagenic compound should then be 

2 considered as an excluded method, since they 

3 violate the first criterion for determining if a 

4 method should be excluded since it could be 

5 argues that chemicals and irradiation would not 

6 respect the genome is indivisible.

7 Second, for double haploids there are 

8 in vivo and in vitro methods. For the in vivo 

9 methods, particularly the use of haploid inductor 

10 or inducing lines, those could be considered not 

11 to be using an exclusion method as long as none 

12 of the ingredients used in the in vivo methods 

13 are produced using modern biotechnology or are 

14 unapproved synthetic chemicals.

15 For the in vivo methods that use 

16 irradiated pollen, we consider the use of 

17 irradiation would violate the first criterion.

18 If any of the inputs used in the in 

19 vitro double haploid system are produced using 

20 modern biotechnology, then those inputs would 

21 make the system an excluded technology. If the 

22 synthetic phytohormones or colchicine are not 
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1 produced using modern biotechnology, then those 

2 synthetic chemicals would have to be permitted to 

3 be used before this in vitro technology could be 

4 considered not an excluded method.

5 Third, induced mutagenesis where the 

6 mutagen is a chemical or irradiation should join 

7 in vitro method -- should join in vitro nucleic 

8 acid techniques as an excluded method. If the 

9 mutagen is an environmental stressor or UV light, 

10 then those would not be considered an excluded 

11 method.

12 Fourth, transposable elements, TEs, 

13 where their movement is a result of a chemical or 

14 irradiation should join in vitro nucleic acid 

15 techniques as a excluded method. If the TE 

16 movement is a result of an environmental 

17 stressor, then those should not be considered an 

18 excluded method.

19 It should be pointed out that TEs, 

20 once thought to be, quote, junk DNA, are now 

21 known to play a major role in driving genome 

22 evolution. In addition to causing mutations, 
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1 transposable elements can induce epigenetic 

2 alterations that modify gene expression which can 

3 result in phenotypic variation and adaptation 

4 distress in rice.

5 Recent research has shown TEs are the 

6 main source of epigenetic changes and form a 

7 substantial part of the plant genome such as 85 

8 percent in maize. Our recent review found, 

9 quote, these TE-mediated epigenetic modifications 

10 lead to phenotypic diversity, genetic variation, 

11 and environmental stress tolerance. Thus, TE 

12 methylation is essential for plant evolution and 

13 stress adaptation.

14 And I think this new research shows 

15 that using transposable elements in environmental 

16 stress is probably going to be a lot more 

17 important in breeding techniques. Thank you.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for your 

19 comments. We have a question for you from Dilip.

20 MEMBER NANDWAN: Thank you for your 

21 comments, and they are really valuable as a 

22 Board, as we are reviewing these. And this is 
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1 going to be a lot of work for the Board members.

2 One big clarification, I couldn't 

3 catch your point on excluded methods using in 

4 vitro IM using chemicals such as colchicine. I 

5 am aware of that, one of the chemicals they use 

6 to make double haploids. I am sure you are aware 

7 of that.

8 MR. HANSEN: Yes.

9 MEMBER NANDWAN: So could you please 

10 mention -- sorry, I didn't get your point that if 

11 there are any chemicals involved in double 

12 haploids, are they going to be like excluded 

13 methods or something else?

14 MR. HANSEN: No. What I said is the 

15 phytohormones, for example, and the colchicine, 

16 those would need to be, since they are used in 

17 the double haploid method, in one of them, those 

18 would need to be permitted synthetic chemicals. 

19 And there's a process for that.

20 And so I was initially saying that, 

21 because I've actually talked to some organic 

22 breeders that are actually interested in using 
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1 some of these techniques. And so what I was 

2 saying is just make those two a permitted 

3 synthetic, and that should be fine to go.

4 MEMBER NANDWAN: Okay. Thank you very 

5 much. I appreciate that.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have a question 

7 for you from Brian?

8 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Michael, 

9 really appreciate your insight in all this. Very 

10 quickly, why should colchicine be allowed as an 

11 inducer of, you know, of mutations, and as a just 

12 sort of a generic manipulater?

13 MR. HANSEN: Well, no. That's just --

14 look, they had said double haploids in the past 

15 have been considered, quote, a traditional 

16 breeding method, right? So they weren't 

17 technically excluded. So all I'm saying is this 

18 is what would have to be done. Because right now 

19 you couldn't use them, right?

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay.

21 MR. HANSEN: I would have pushed more 

22 if you're going to do the, you know, double 
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1 haploids. The ones where there are these inducer 

2 lines, right, then you're all fine. But for some 

3 other crops you might have to use, you know, 

4 phytohormones.

5 And if organic wants to go down that 

6 road, then I'm just saying that at least the 

7 colchicine and the phytohormones have to be 

8 considered approved. Because again, there were 

9 actually some technical people in the organic 

10 community that told me that their dream is to 

11 actively do some double hapload on some crops for 

12 organic. And they said likely then we use 

13 colchicine.

14 And all I said, well, if there's 

15 enough interest in that you're going to have to 

16 -- that should go through the process of being 

17 considered an approved synthetic, if people want 

18 that. If folks don't, that's fine as well.

19 MEMBER CALDWELL: I see, okay. That 

20 makes a lot of sense.

21 The other question I had was, and this 

22 may be to big of a question, but how can we --
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1 some of these techniques have been on the TBA 

2 list for a long time. And of course even before 

3 that, the reason they were put on TBA list was 

4 because there were a lot of varieties in the 

5 pipeline, and in use, that used them.

6 So if we decide to make some of these 

7 excluded methods, how do we go through -- should 

8 we just say from this point forward they be 

9 excluded methods, or should we actually try to 

10 retrieve them from all the varieties that we have 

11 them?

12 MR. HANSEN: It's unclear to me, for 

13 example, if many -- of the double haploids. I 

14 think where this comes into it might be with the

15 mutagenesis, the past use of irradiation or 

16 chemicals. But now what's interesting is this 

17 brand new, in the last three or four years, this 

18 information about transposable elements is really 

19 fascinating.

20 Because besides regular mutations, 

21 this whole area of epigenetics where, actually, 

22 you're not changing the DNA at the nucleotide 
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1 base level, you're sort of tagging it. That 

2 could actually have heritable effects on all 

3 these other things, and science didn't really 

4 understand that.

5 We're now beginning to understand 

6 that, and what's fascinating is transposable 

7 elements are actually playing a role in that. 

8 And they're finding out that, under stress 

9 conditions, that the transposable elements are 

10 not only creating mutations, but they're actually 

11 changing things to make the plant more 

12 adaptable.

13 That was the rice research, and then 

14 there's this other research in the last three 

15 years. So these people are realizing, whoa, 

16 transposable elements are way more important than 

17 we thought.

18 So using them in breeding, and again 

19 using environmental stressors, like putting them 

20 in extreme heat and other conditions, previously 

21 people said that was crazy, because that would 

22 imply there's Lamarckianism, right, the inherence 
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1 of acquired characteristics.

2 We now know that epigenetics is 

3 actually what that is, and we're now coming to 

4 realize that one of the main mechanisms is 

5 through these transposable elements.

6 So that means doing breeding, rather 

7 than using all these chemicals and other things, 

8 it's going to be the transposable elements that 

9 are going to be creating all this variation not 

10 only, as I said, just that mutational stock, but 

11 all how the genemome is regulated and turning on 

12 and off. That's what's really special here. 

13 Because, for example, with the maize genome, 

14 evidence of 85 --

15 MEMBER CALDWELL: So, Michael, this is 

16 going to take too long. I'm going to just yield 

17 to Mindee here. But I appreciate that that's 

18 going to be an important method. But we are a 

19 little short of time, so sorry.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Go 

21 ahead, Mindee.

22 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you so much, 
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1 Michael, for your comments and for your long 

2 history of keeping track of these issues with us. 

3 If you want to send us some of that literature, 

4 please do send it to Michelle, because we'd love 

5 the references.

6 MR. HANSEN: Yeah, the two of them, 

7 most of these are since I drafted NOC comments. 

8 Most of those technical ones of are there, but 

9 this review article that I was quoting from the 

10 end isn't. So I'll send that, and I can actually 

11 send a few more.

12 MEMBER JEFFERY: Great. We will love 

13 that. Thank you so much.

14 My question is has Consumer Reports 

15 considered or conducted, like, a newer consumer 

16 survey on whether or not people understand the 

17 proliferation of biotechnology in the food 

18 system.

19 MR. HANSEN: We haven't done, no, 

20 newer surveys on that. But every time we did 

21 them, that was actually, particularly for people 

22 that were buying organic, that was an important 
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1 consideration.

2 And our surveys tend to show that 

3 people think it's all genetic engineering, not 

4 these new terms of CRISPR-Net. These are all 

5 just forms of genetic engineering.

6 MEMBER JEFFERY: Yeah. The reason I 

7 asked is because I think, especially of the 

8 plant-based movement, we're growing so much 

9 before the pandemic. And thinking of how 

10 consumers fit with the food system during and 

11 post-pandemic, I don't feel like I've necessarily 

12 been able to gain perspective on some of, like, 

13 updated consumer thinking.

14 And I'm not sure where I can get that

15 perspective from in the sense of are people being 

16 educated on where these new technologies come in. 

17 Because there's a lot of counter-pressure to 

18 allow them into the organic space and the natural 

19 food space. But I'm really just interested --

20 MR. HANSEN: Right.

21 MEMBER JEFFERY: -- in what consumers 

22 know and what they, you know, what are they 
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1 really thinking about from a neutral place of 

2 understanding consumers. So --

3 MR. HANSEN: Right. I mean --

4 (Simultaneous speaking.)

5 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you so much for 

6 answering your --

7 MR. HANSEN: Yeah, we'll be trying to 

8 -- I will be encouraging Consumer Reports to 

9 actually redo some of these surveys, and 

10 hopefully I can be successful on that.

11 MEMBER JEFFERY: Yeah, thank you so 

12 much, Michael.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have one more 

14 question --

15 MR. HANSEN: You're welcome.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- for you from 

17 Dilip.

18 MEMBER NANDWAN: Thanks, Nate. Sorry, 

19 it should be quick. Michael, can you please tell 

20 us a little bit about two other topics, or you 

21 can send us the literature.

22 One is protoplast culture or 
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1 protoplast fusion and also embryo rescue. If you 

2 have any thoughts, please share. If not, please 

3 sent the literature later, because of the time 

4 constraint. Thank you again.

5 MR. HANSEN: Yeah, just very quickly 

6 for protoplast fusion, as long as it's below the 

7 level of plant family that has been considered 

8 conventional breeding, and because the issue 

9 there would be a lot of the cold crops. Those 

10 are how those are being developed. And I can 

11 send you some information on cell fusion too.

12 MEMBER NANDWAN: And embryo rescue.

13 MR. HANSEN: Oh, and embryo rescue.

14 MEMBER NANDWAN: Thank you again.

15 MR. HANSEN: Well, actually, that is 

16 the use of colchicine and all those other things. 

17 That's part of what embryo rescue is. Because 

18 you're doing the embryo rescue, that's part of 

19 the double haploid system.

20 MEMBER NANDWAN: Correct --

21 (Simultaneous speaking.)

22 MEMBER NANDWAN: -- is there, 
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1 integrated, kind of they are connected in one or 

2 other form. I'll stop there. Thank you again, I 

3 appreciate that.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, and 

5 thank you, Michael. We really appreciate your 

6 comments and joining us today.

7 Next up we have Megan Vaith, followed 

8 by Byron Wiemer, and then Phil Vavarchek. Sorry 

9 if I B- I'm an equal opportunity name-butcherer, 

10 so please forgive me.

11 Megan, please go ahead.

12 MS. VAITH: Can you hear me, Nate?

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

14 MS. VAITH: Perfect. So bear with me, 

15 I'm going to talk fast. My name is Megan Vaith, 

16 and I'm with Northbourne Organic Crop Insurance 

17 where I work with multiple organic farmers on the 

18 insurance options that are available to them.

19 Crop insurance has been an important 

20 risk management tool used for years that's 

21 progressively become more popular in the organic 

22 industry. According to the RMA back in 2013, 
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1 just over 694,000 acres were covered under crop 

2 insurance. And in 2022, that number grew to just 

3 under 2 million acres.

4 According to data provided by 

5 Mercaris, nearly 8.3 million acres of certified 

6 organic grain was harvested in 2022. This means 

7 there is a gap of over 6 million organic acres 

8 not being covered by the Federal Crop Insurance 

9 Program.

10 While I do want to recognize there are 

11 multiple ways to mitigate risk, and crop 

12 insurance doesn't need to be used on every 

13 operation, I think it's time we take a step back 

14 and start to analyze why this subsidized program 

15 is not used more widely among organic growers 

16 like it is for their conventional counterparts.

17 In turn, organic farmers experience 

18 higher loss ratios on average than conventional 

19 farmers. Over the last ten years, RMA's data 

20 shows that the average loss ratio was 1.58 on 

21 organic versus 0.8 on conventional. Crop 

22 insurance is supposed to be actuarially sound, 
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1 meaning over time it showed a loss ratio of 1.0 

2 as every dollar paid into the program is supposed 

3 to be a dollar paid back out to farmers through 

4 losses with the exception of a small cushion.

5 This presents a problem in itself as 

6 the crop insurance program is not staying true to 

7 the original intention. But also, if the loss 

8 ratios are that high in organic why do we see 

9 such a large number of farmers not utilizing it?

10 I believe this can be attributed to a 

11 couple of different reasons. Number one, organic 

12 farmers not knowing that crop insurance options 

13 are available for them and, two, crop insurance 

14 simply doesn't work for them.

15 Here is one of the areas I would like 

16 to shed light on. When a farmer begins to 

17 transition to organic, they have to forego their 

18 conventional history and start over with a county 

19 transitional yield which sets a baseline for what 

20 the farmer is guarantees will be. These 

21 transitional yields, known as T yields, are 

22 typically set at 65 percent of the conventional 
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1 T yields.

2 History has proven that organic 

3 farmers can raise more than 65 percent of the 

4 conventional yield. So why is the T yield so 

5 low? Along with that, after the transitional 

6 period when they become certified organic, they 

7 have to start over again. Because they are 

8 technically starting a new farming practice.

9 It takes four years of planting the 

10 same crop to the same field to flesh out the low 

11 T yield making insurance inadequate for the 36 

12 months to transition along with the first four 

13 years of planting that crop while being certified 

14 organic.

15 I worked with a farmer in South Dakota 

16 whose conventional average yield was 252 bushels 

17 of corn. When he transitioned to organic, he was 

18 forced to use a yield based on 124 bushels.

19 Suggestion, if RMA is stuck on using 

20 the 65 percent factor, why not allow established 

21 farmers to use 65 percent of their conventional 

22 history? This would have increased that farmer's 
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1 yield from 124 to 164 and made his policy more in 

2 touch with a yield potential?

3 Trend adjustment is an option farmers 

4 are able to add onto their policy to increase 

5 their guaranteed yields. In order to qualify for 

6 this beneficial option, you have to have planted 

7 the same crop on the same field over the last 

8 four years.

9 This works great for the traditional 

10 corn and soybean farmer, but when you get into 

11 more diverse crop rotations, like the options in 

12 organics, farmers are not planting the same crop 

13 every four years making them ineligible or this 

14 option and thus having less crop insurance 

15 coverage.

16 PM CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nice work if 

17 you're done, if you're not, keep going.

18 MS. VAITH: I have one sentence. I 

19 suggest RMA changes the guidelines for organic 

20 farmers as long as they can prove their 

21 multi-crop rotational system. And I'll end it.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Boom. All right. 
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1 Questions for Megan?

2 Megan, I was wondering, we've talked a 

3 lot about crop rotation, do you have any 

4 resources that you'd point folks to where just 

5 the basic fundamental anatomy, access, all the 

6 rules around crop insurance for organic 

7 producers, somewhere that they can go to learn 

8 more about it?

9 MS. VAITH: As far as crop rotation 

10 for how that works for the crop insurance?

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Or rather just for 

12 organic crop insurance in general.

13 MS. VAITH: Well, I do not have any 

14 resources at the moment. But we are creating 

15 some with OATS, the Organic Argronomic Training 

16 Service, so more to come on that this summer.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we'll 

18 --

19 MS. VAITH: So that will be really 

20 good for, yeah, information for them.

21 And as far as, like, the crop 

22 rotational system with the trend adjustment and 
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1 all that, that doesn't just apply to organic 

2 farmers. I think that's really a disadvantage 

3 for farmers that are also -- like, in western 

4 South Dakota conventional farmers have multiple 

5 crops in their rotational system. And so it 

6 doesn't work for them either. So it's not a 

7 blanket works for conventional and not organic. 

8 I think the whole thing needs to be re-looked at.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I love that. It's 

10 sort of the big tent approach where we could 

11 benefit all farmers if we were moving in this 

12 direction, really appreciate that.

13 Amy has a question for you.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, Megan, thank you 

15 so much for your time today, and joining us, and 

16 providing your perspective. Two questions, you 

17 had a lot of data about, you know, the 

18 distribution of how many farmers are doing crop 

19 insurance or participating in the program and how 

20 many aren't in the organic space.

21 Do we know where those numbers are 

22 distributed, I mean, and who has adopted the 
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1 organic crop insurance, and who hasn't, and what 

2 type of farmer profile that is so we can 

3 understand.

4 You know, you said it was -- they 

5 don't know if it's available is why they're 

6 potentially not participating or it doesn't work 

7 for them. So then we can start getting after, 

8 you know, root causes and solutions for those.

9 MS. VAITH: Yeah. There is 

10 information on the RMA website about what crops 

11 are insured and what states that have the 

12 insurance options available to them. Of course, 

13 there is no, like, good data as to why they're 

14 not purchasing crop insurance.

15 I think a lot of it is misinformation 

16 or just not having enough information out there, 

17 like I said. But there is the data showing where 

18 the crop insurance policies are located, I guess, 

19 and what crops.

20 MEMBER BRUCH: Awesome, that's great. 

21 And my second question is we heard from quite a 

22 few producers about they want to rotate into 
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1 crops, but they can't get crop insurance on in 

2 their counties. But they're not necessarily 

3 exotic crops, they're normalized crops.

4 Can you just talk to the Board here 

5 about the process, the written agreement process 

6 and what all goes into that so a producer could 

7 buy to get these crops put on their insurance 

8 list?

9 MS. VAITH: Yes, good question, Amy. 

10 So written agreements is a process that organic 

11 farmers can go through in order to obtain crop 

12 insurance on their crops that don't have crop 

13 insurance readily available, very common process 

14 for organic farmers.

15 Usually it gets a bad rep that farmers 

16 are just not wanting to go through that process 

17 or maybe the agents don't want to do it, because 

18 it's extra work, and a lot of paperwork involved.

19 So some of the restrictions that they 

20 need in order to obtain insurance is you need to 

21 submit the biggest one, I guess, if you need to 

22 have some sort of crop history. And it doesn't 
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1 need to be history on the crop that you're 

2 planting. Like maybe buckwheat, for example, you 

3 want to plant buckwheat, you don't have any 

4 history of buckwheat.

5 In order to get insurance you can 

6 submit this written agreement and say that you 

7 have a crop history of a similar crop to what 

8 buckwheat is. And there's an entire handbook 

9 that lists what similar crops can be classified 

10 as so that you can use it. It can be a 

11 combination of -- there's probably even ten 

12 different crops you can use on that in order to 

13 obtain the insurance.

14 So a lot of farmers think that, oh, 

15 this is too hard. Like, I don't have the three 

16 years of history on that crop, so I can't get 

17 crop insurance. But they really need to go down 

18 the written agreement route and realize they 

19 probably have the history in just another crop 

20 which will qualify them to submit the written 

21 agreement and get crop insurance coverage.

22 Is it going to be great crop insurance 
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1 coverage, you don't know until you get the offer 

2 back. But it's worth going through the process 

3 just to see what they're willing to offer you for 

4 coverage and if it's worth it and beneficial for 

5 your operation.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Awesome. Any 

7 other questions for Megan?

8 Megan, you packed a bunch into a very 

9 short period of time, but we can't thank you 

10 enough for joining us today. Thank you so much 

11 for the time --

12 MS. VAITH: Thank you.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- it took to 

14 prepare that, and for your expertise, and for 

15 helping organic farmers find crop insurance. 

16 Thank you.

17 Next up, we have Byron Wiemer, 

18 followed by Phil Vavarchek, and then Doug 

19 Currier.

20 MR. WIEMER: Yes, I'm Byron Wiemer. 

21 I'm actually a crop insurance agent in Nebraska, 

22 in eastern Nebraska based out of Utica, was asked 
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1 to visit with you all. I'm going to sort of 

2 piggyback on Megan and Aaron both. You talked 

3 about crop insurance, but my discussion was going 

4 to be on the T yields that you guys have to start 

5 out with, you know, to get started in organic 

6 farming.

7 And just an example would be like in 

8 York County, Nebraska, for irrigated corn, if 

9 you're conventional corn, you start out at 223 

10 bushels. For organic transitional, you start out 

11 at 156. So, you know, that's a 67 bushel 

12 difference. This year, corn price was set at 

13 591. So, you know, if you use 591 you're short 

14 $400 an acre difference, 396.

15 Soybeans are sort of the same thing. 

16 You know, if you're a conventional person, it's 

17 67 bushels that you start out with. If you're 

18 organic transitional, you've got 47. So it's a 

19 20 bushel different. Price we're using this year 

20 is $1,376 so, you know, you're looking at $275 

21 difference. Then wheat, you know, you start out 

22 if you're a conventional farmer, you start out at 
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1 55 bushels, organic transitional it's 36. So at 

2 877 for 2023, you know, you're $167 an acre 

3 difference then, you know.

4 Like both Aaron and Megan related to, 

5 when you start out with these transitional 

6 yields, you know, it's four a years. So 

7 depending what kind of rotation you're in, it 

8 varies. It could be, you know, you have to --

9 every time we turn an actual yield in, we get rid 

10 of one T yield.

11 So in a tier crop rotation you're 

12 talking eight years. If you're a three-crop 

13 rotation it could be 12. So, you know, it's a 

14 long process to get to where you actually get to 

15 use your own yields. And as far as the crops are 

16 available, I mean, that varies by county.

17 You know, when I looked at York 

18 County, basically you have corn, you've got 

19 soybeans, you've got grain sorgum, popcorn, and 

20 oats. And so you're so limited on the coverage 

21 that's available. And like I said, you know, 

22 you're stuck with those yields for four years.
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1 So it's, for people going into it, you 

2 know, it's sort of a tough pull, because you are 

3 taking, like Aaron said, you're taking quite a 

4 bit of risk on yourself. And that's something 

5 that we're going to, you know, we all need to 

6 help to address so that we can offer better 

7 coverage for you.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, we really 

9 appreciate these comments. Questions for Byron?

10 So, Byron, I have a question for you.

11 MR. WIEMER: Yeah.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do you think it is 

13 just a missed opportunity to assume, with 

14 probably some good data, that good conventional 

15 farmers who are good operators become good 

16 organic farmers who get good yields? Is that 

17 something that you think is a true statement, 

18 good farmers --

19 MR. WIEMER: Yeah.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: B- are good 

21 farmers?

22 MR. WIEMER: Yeah. I mean, if you're 
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1 that farmer that takes pride in his operation, 

2 you know, whether you're farming conventional or 

3 you're farming organic, you're going to do 

4 everything in your power to produce a good crop 

5 and have something that you can drive by, and 

6 your neighbors can drive by and be proud of.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. And 

8 so it seems like we are dismissing that in, you 

9 know, RMA's analysis of how a farmer becomes an 

10 organic farmer. They have to go through sort of 

11 this, you know, for lack of a better term, 

12 de-robing period where they don't get to have any 

13 of their history or any of their techniques 

14 recognized, that they know how to get good 

15 yields, and they're going to be able to transfer 

16 that.

17 So I really appreciate your insights 

18 here in how T yields are, I mean, in a way, those 

19 numbers that you gave us are really quite a 

20 barrier for thinking that it's a good bet to make 

21 that jump over to organic.

22 I'm going to hand if off to Amy. Amy, 
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1 please go ahead.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, Byron, thank you 

3 so much for joining us from your mobile office, 

4 appreciate that. I wanted to ask you a question. 

5 That data was really helpful where you 

6 communicated about the T yields.

7 Just to clarify if, for example, if I 

8 was a first year conventional farmer, would I be 

9 able to get a larger coverage level than a farmer 

10 that had 15 years experience farming 

11 conventionally and then decided to switch to 

12 transition? Is that an accurate statement?

13 MR. WIEMER: No. I mean, basically if 

14 -- yeah, I mean you're a beginning farmer, you 

15 know, like I said, and you have no yield history 

16 for corn, soybeans, or whatever the crop, you 

17 start out in what they call T yields.

18 And like I said, for irrigated corn it 

19 would be 223, irrigated soybeans would be 67. 

20 The only way you would ever get higher yields in 

21 that to start out with would be if you were 

22 renting on shares and your landlord was willing 
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1 to share, if he had higher yields, you know, in 

2 his ten-year database, you would be able to use 

3 those yields if he agreed to share them with you. 

4 But that would be the only way you could do it.

5 Did that answer your question or not 

6 answer your question? I'm not sure.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, it did. The 

8 transition is not a -- it's not for a transition 

9 producer. It's for a person that doesn't have 

10 any practice history automatically gets that 

11 data. Yes?

12 MR. WIEMER: Correct.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: That answered my 

14 question, thank you so much.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

16 for Byron?

17 I'll echo Amy, Byron. Thank you so 

18 much for making it work to join us today.

19 MR. WIEMER: Well, thank you for --

20 (Simultaneous speaking.)

21 MR. WIEMER: -- thank you for the 

22 opportunity.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. Take 

2 care.

3 MR. WIEMER: You too. Thank you.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Next 

5 up we have Phil Vavarchek and then Doug Currier. 

6 And we're ending today with Alan Lewis.

7 Phil, if you're there, the floor is 

8 yours.

9 MS. ARSENAULT: Nate, Phil is on the 

10 phone only. And I don't know which number 

11 belongs to him. He may have to hit Star 6 unmute 

12 himself.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So, Phil, if 

14 you're on the phone, and you want to hit Star 6, 

15 that should unmute you, if you can hear us. And 

16 we can certainly circle back.

17 Amy, do you see him online?

18 MS. ARSENAULT: If you could just let 

19 me know the last four digits of your photo list, 

20 so we know which line to unmute, that would be 

21 awesome.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: 1909, I believe.
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1 MS. ARSENAULT: Got it.

2 MR. VAVRACEK: Okay, can you hear me 

3 now?

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can. 

5 Please go ahead.

6 MR. VAVRACEK: Okay, sorry about that. 

7 Yeah, this is Phil Vavracek. I'm a producer 

8 over here in Nebraska, eastern Nebraska. And we 

9 got into the organics here. We've grown two 

10 certified crops and went through the transition 

11 period.

12 And I've listened to two of your prior 

13 callers, so my topic I was going to bring up was 

14 about the T yields as well. So I'm probably not 

15 going to get into that too much. They gave a 

16 good explanation of that.

17 But my thing was it is here I'm going 

18 to say where that 150 is our T yield for our 

19 county average. And with us, our first year of 

20 corn, we out-produced that by 170 percent. And 

21 I'm just being open with you, our first corn crop 

22 certified organic was 255 an acre. And we went 
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1 back to corn, and it was 224. We followed up 

2 with another good yield.

3 So with that being said, with the 

4 four-years to get the proven history, we're 

5 obviously going to need to go to a different 

6 crop. We're going to go to soybeans, and then we 

7 might go to a small grain like wheat and then 

8 back to alfalfa.

9 Our concern or reason for that is that 

10 the alfalfa with weed control, then rotating the 

11 crops because of disease, insects, and soil 

12 health. So if we start getting into three or 

13 four crops, you know, over three or four years, 

14 your period of time, then you're talking 12 to 16 

15 years before we have the four years of proven 

16 history.

17 There was a little bit of talk about 

18 maybe some producers doing all that they can, you 

19 know, to push that crop to get a better yield. 

20 I'm not taking away from anybody, but you have 

21 that in conventional too. So if you have a 

22 producer that's willing to put a little more out 
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1 and do a little more than his neighbor, I'm 

2 wondering, he should almost be rewarded for 

3 that.

4 So if there's some type of way to use 

5 your proven history of conventional, and use a 

6 percentage of that to support or to prove a T 

7 yield, or not T yield, excuse me, a proven yield 

8 that you could use for your organic, just taking 

9 a percentage over your 10, 15, or how many ever 

10 years you've been farming conventionally, just to 

11 reward maybe, I don't want to say maybe a better 

12 producer or someone that, you know, has a little 

13 better history of yield.

14 I guess that's one thought, one idea. 

15 Because our organic was just as good as our 

16 conventional and actually better than some of our 

17 other conventional fields, or whatever, where 

18 we've had some disease and some other issues. So 

19 that was one thing we were looking at.

20 Another thing I guess I wanted to 

21 bring up that I kind of read about is maybe the 

22 imports of organic crops (audio interference), 
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1 you know, are they legitimately doing everything 

2 that we are here in the United States? Or are 

3 they just, you know, is it getting looked at as 

4 hard as maybe we are in all the processes that we 

5 have to go through.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Read you loud and 

7 clear. Yes, thank you so much for your comments 

8 today. Questions from the Board for Phil?

9 I just had a quick, making sure I got 

10 the numbers right, Phil, you said that your 

11 organic field that first year out-yielded some of 

12 your conventional fields?

13 MR. VAVRACEK: Correct, yes.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Awesome.

15 MR. VAVRACEK: Obviously it was an 

16 irrigated field, and we had come right out of the 

17 alfalfa. So we kind of did that for weed 

18 control, and we did that for soil health, was our 

19 thinking.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think that is a 

21 great opportunity in these meetings to hear some 

22 real on the ground data of how folks are doing 
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1 out there. So I really appreciate you sharing 

2 that with us. Thank you very much. And thanks 

3 for joining us with your comments today.

4 MR. VAVRACEK: Yeah, thank you. And 

5 I guess I'd just like to say lastly, you know, 

6 thank you and the Board for all that you are 

7 doing. We really appreciate that.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Appreciate you. 

9 Take care.

10 MR. VAVRACEK: All right, thank you.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Michelle, is 

12 Xavier Barraza on?

13 MS. ARSENAULT: If so, only on the 

14 phone. And I don't know the phone number, so I 

15 don't know which one may belong to them. Trying 

16 to unmute phone lines.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Xavier, if you're 

18 there, and on the phone, and want to hit Star 6, 

19 we'll be able to hear you. Otherwise we can come 

20 back.

21 Let's jump to Doug Currier, and then 

22 Alan Lewis, and then we'll come back to Xavier.
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1 Doug, if you're there, the floor is 

2 yours.

3 MR. CURRIER: Thank you, Nate. Hi, 

4 Board members. My name is Doug Currier. I'm 

5 presenting comments today on behalf of the 

6 Organic Materials Review Institute where I work 

7 as technical director. I'm presenting comments 

8 today on ion exchange resins.

9 I want to start by recognizing that 

10 having an understanding of what ends up or 

11 potentially ends up in organic food is valid. 

12 This concern is baked into our current policy on 

13 ion exchange technology.

14 As stated in previous comments to the 

15 Board, OMRI's policy on the technology has 

16 remained unchanged since 2004, both the resin and 

17 the recharge material used with the technology 

18 must be on the national list.

19 This policy is largely based on the 

20 fact that ion exchange resins qualify under a 

21 variety of FDA definitions such as secondary 

22 direct food additive, processing aids, and food 
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1 contact substances.

2 The pre-approval of exchange resins by 

3 the FDA, just like the many thousands of other 

4 substances that are introduced into food, either 

5 intentionally to accomplish a technical effect, 

6 or adventitiously as a component of an added 

7 substance, or inadvertently through contamination 

8 resulting from processing, must include estimated 

9 dietary intake or EDI reporting.

10 These EDIs are estimates of the 

11 probable consumer intake of the additive as an 

12 indicator of the risk of adverse effects of human 

13 health. These are essentially toxicological 

14 assessments considered during FDA review and 

15 approval of these substances in food production 

16 in the U.S.

17 Details on the structural 

18 characteristics, use limitations, and pre-food 

19 production calibration requirements of the 

20 resins, which is something I don't think we've 

21 talked about much, approved for use in food 

22 production in the U.S., are found in 21 CFR. So 
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1 some amount of these structural components or 

2 their byproducts could potentially end up in food 

3 products.

4 Yes, testing these foodstuffs to 

5 identify these components originating from 

6 exchange resins is possible. And that would seem 

7 true for any food contact substance with the EDI, 

8 including the myriad of other substances, 

9 including other plastics currently used in USDA 

10 organic production.

11 With that said, OMRI supports the 

12 subcommittee's recommendation that ion exchange 

13 resins do not need to be added to the national 

14 list for their use to continue for two reasons. 

15 One is migration of chemical elements originating 

16 from exchange resin to food is a potentiality. 

17 It's not guaranteed.

18 We consider it low risk because of 

19 that EDI and that work that FDA has already done. 

20 I think other commenters have pointed out too 

21 that the intention is not to have those elements 

22 migrate to their organic product.
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1 And second, we are concerned about the 

2 precedent, a recommendation that resins be on the 

3 National List sets for future NOSBs in the 

4 broader organic sector.

5 So thank you for your time, and I will 

6 end it there.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we 

8 appreciate your comments. Question for Doug? 

9 Nate, please go ahead.

10 MEMBER LEWIS: Hey, Doug, appreciate 

11 the comments. OMRI always tends to bring the 

12 technical refresh to the conversation that we all 

13 need. So I appreciate that.

14 The second element of your comments 

15 related to precedent. Is it accurate to sort of 

16 extrapolate from that the, let me just get my 

17 words together correctly, but is it accurate to 

18 extrapolate from that that it's your judgement at 

19 OMRI that the resins are neither a processing aid 

20 nor an ingredient. And therefore, we don't have 

21 a place on the national list for these 

22 substances?
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1 MR. CURRIER: Yeah, I think that's 

2 true. I think that, you know, making it clear 

3 what is within the scope of the Board and what 

4 isn't, is important here. And I think that is 

5 the precedent that we're concerned about setting. 

6 And, you know, having the Board tied up in the 

7 future for other similar items is a concern. So 

8 yeah, I think that's true, Nate.

9 MEMBER LEWIS: Thank you, appreciate 

10 it.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

12 ahead.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Doug, thank you for 

14 joining us today, we appreciate your comments and 

15 information. I had a question for you about 

16 another person's written comment. And this was 

17 on liquid fish products. And the reason why I'm 

18 asking you is because we talked about this, a 

19 similar situation with folic acid and 

20 fortification of essentially some of the 

21 solvents.

22 So the written comment discusses that 
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1 they've seen a high guarantee of phosphate 

2 relative to nitrogen and some of these liquid 

3 fish products. So they're seeing, like, a 140 or 

4 a 250 indicating that there's potentially 

5 possible, you know, larger amounts of phosphorous 

6 or phosphate in these products than just enough 

7 to, you know, get the pH in line.

8 So the question was is a soil 

9 phosphate test being performed by OMRI, for 

10 example, to verify that these conditions aren't 

11 occurring, that more phosphate's added, and then 

12 other products are introduced into the overall 

13 product to get the pH back in line with the 

14 annotation.

15 MR. CURRIER: So not so much the 

16 phosphorus testing at the final product level. 

17 We are very much looking at that pH requirement. 

18 And we ensure that, you know, for formulated 

19 products we're making sure that that pH test is 

20 representative of the fish ingredient, so the 

21 stabilized fish ingredient, and not looking at, 

22 you know, making sure that testing happens prior 
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1 to formulating with other ingredients.

2 You know, a lot of these products are

3 HNLF, so they're getting that extra scrutiny too, 

4 going onsite and doing trace back audits. And 

5 so, you know, we're very much focused on that pH 

6 requirement.

7 And, yeah, beyond that, if they're 

8 meeting that standard, you know, I think maybe 

9 your question is more about the label claims 

10 perhaps, or the NDK on the final product and how 

11 some of that comes from that lab synthetic. But 

12 yeah, we're very much focused on the pH and 

13 making sure that's being met as annotated.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks. Just a quick 

15 question, would the testing that wouldn't be 

16 required the, the soil phosphate test, is that 

17 something potentially that could be executed if 

18 there was more indication that this fortification 

19 was happening?

20 MR. CURRIER: Yeah. I might be 

21 missing something here, but I think that the 

22 fortification would come out in the pH, the pH 
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1 lab requirements. So the fortification, you 

2 know, if they're not meeting that pH requirement, 

3 yeah, then there's cause for concern for the 

4 fortification. But they may be out for another 

5 reason.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. So you think the 

7 pH is a good indication for the moment?

8 MR. CURRIER: I would think so. 

9 Because that's showing that it's meeting the 

10 standard.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you, Doug, 

12 appreciate it.

13 MR. CURRIER: Yeah.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have a question 

15 for you from Brian, sorry.

16 MR. CURRIER: Okay.

17 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thanks, Doug. 

18 And boy, I want to thank all the work that OMRI 

19 puts into our technical reports which I think 

20 have been fantastic in the last few years. So I 

21 really appreciate that.

22 MR. CURRIER: Great.
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1 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. Before my 

2 real question, I actually did not understand what 

3 you were talking about there with fish products 

4 and the pH. You're saying that the pH is tested 

5 before something like phosphoric acid is added so 

6 that you would know how much phosphoric acid 

7 would need to be added to bring it down to 3.5. 

8 Is that what you're saying?

9 MR. CURRIER: So there are fish 

10 products that are 100 percent fish products, or 

11 stabilized fish products. But then there's 

12 products that are formulated with fish products, 

13 stabilized fish products. So for those 

14 formulated products, we are ensuring that the pH 

15 test is of that formulation ingredient.

16 And so you don't get the chance to 

17 acid-stabilize twice. So you can't stabilize 

18 your ingredient and then stabilize again to 

19 reduce the pH again after formulation. So that 

20 is something that we've worked hard to ensure 

21 people are aware of. And it's more about the 

22 double-dipping, I guess, for the acid 
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1 stabilization.

2 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay. Yeah, I think 

3 the kind of double dipping that I was thinking 

4 about, and probably I think Amy was too, is that 

5 basically before the final product is, before 

6 it's finished, a lot of phosphorus, a lot of 

7 phosphoric acid is added.

8 And then something else is added to 

9 bring the pH back up to 3.5 so that it passes the 

10 test. I think that's the concern. You know, 

11 that would be the way of juicing it with 

12 basically chemical peat.

13 MR. CURRIER: Sure.

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: So anyway, okay, 

15 let's just put that aside. And my real question 

16 was going to be in terms of the ion exchange. It 

17 seemed like the first part of your comments was 

18 very strongly in favor of listing resins. And 

19 then the second part of your comments was the 

20 opposite. So did I get that right?

21 MR. CURRIER: Yeah, and sorry for the 

22 confusion, everybody. And I debated on whether 
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1 to just lead with our support for the 

2 subcommittee's recommendation and, in retrospect, 

3 I maybe should have done that.

4 But yeah, I think what -- and this has 

5 been the issue all along, you know, it's kind of 

6 defending where our policy is right now, and has 

7 been for a long time, but all at the same time 

8 being open to adjusting our policy, you know, 

9 based off of all the conversations that have been 

10 had over the past three years.

11 So I think that the first part of the 

12 comment is very much talking about where we're 

13 coming from with our current policy, you know, 

14 talking about how these ion exchange resins would 

15 meet a variety of different FDA definitions that 

16 would also be shared by things on the national 

17 list. And I think that's maybe the confusion 

18 that we've been dealing with.

19 But these are looked at by FDA in a 

20 particular way. And that doesn't necessarily 

21 mean that we have to look at them in the same 

22 way. And knowing that there is, and Gwendolyn 
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1 was talking about this earlier, knowing that 

2 there's that FDA food contact substance process, 

3 you know, where they're assessing that migration, 

4 inadvertent, I think, potential migration is 

5 something that they're doing.

6 And so just to clarify, we do support 

7 the subcommittee's recommendation that these 

8 don't need to be on national list. But my first 

9 part of the comment was trying to, you know, 

10 address some of the current policy that we have 

11 and, you know, kind of connecting the dots 

12 between what FDA is doing and, yeah, just trying 

13 set the standard here or set the level here for 

14 what the FDA is doing.

15 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Doug, really 

16 appreciate it.

17 MR. CURRIER: Okay.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin, please 

19 go ahead.

20 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes, my question is 

21 maybe a follow-up of what was already asked, but 

22 it's still on the ion exchange filtration process 
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1 asking the terms leaking and leaching use 

2 differentiates things between them. Is leaching 

3 an actual issue as the reports that's around, it 

4 goes into the exchange material. It doesn't go 

5 into the product B- it goes into the product.

6 So we are interested, particularly 

7 interested in knowing what you think about is 

8 leaching an issue.

9 MR. CURRIER: So, yeah, there's a lot 

10 of the terminology for those terms being used. 

11 And I think hopefully it's been we're arriving at 

12 this point of recognizing that the resin, and the 

13 makeup of the resin is not meant to interact with 

14 the organic food or the foodstuff.

15 It's there to make sure that the ion 

16 exchange technology is effective. But there is 

17 this migration potential, you know, for there to 

18 have some of these materials in the resin ending 

19 up in food. That's what the FDA is looking at 

20 when they look at their approval of food contact 

21 substances.

22 There's calculations, but that's the 
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1 estimated dietary intake. You know, there has to 

2 be some kind of acknowledgement that there's a 

3 potential for these elements in the resin to 

4 migrate. It's not just resins though, it's many 

5 other food contact substances.

6 And one quick thing about this pre-use 

7 calibration requirement, so there's requirements 

8 in the FDA regulations even before you started 

9 using the technology. So you have to meet 

10 certain standards.

11 And, you know, running kind of the 

12 simulations of what the actual filtration is 

13 going to be, so that's what I'm calling these 

14 calibration requirement. And those are all in 21 

15 CFR too. And these folks are going through all 

16 of this even before they start into food 

17 production.

18 Again, Gwendolyn, I think, was hitting 

19 on that. It's like these meant to be highly 

20 calibrated, you know, efficient, effective 

21 technology. So I know I'm saying maybe two 

22 things there, but yes, I think there's a 
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1 potential for migration. It think that's what 

2 the food contact substance process is all about.

3 But, you know, certifiers making sure 

4 things are in good working order onsite, going 

5 onsite every year, I think, is a big part of 

6 ensuring that these are working the way they're 

7 meant to work.

8 MEMBER QUARCOO: Quickly, I wanted to 

9 find out if I may, this estimated dietary intake, 

10 is it data driven? Is it supported by available 

11 enough data to make this EDR estimate be 

12 relevant?

13 MR. CURRIER: From what I know, yeah. 

14 Because it is part of the assessment FDA is 

15 doing as they look at potentially new food 

16 contact substances. And so there's a lot of FDA 

17 resources that are there to really outline what 

18 is required from these manufacturers.

19 And that is a calculation that they 

20 are very much looking at, of what amount could 

21 reasonably, at the highest level, kind of, 

22 depending on how much someone is ingesting, how 
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1 much would potentially appear in one of these 

2 foodstuffs.

3 MEMBER QUARCOO: Thanks.

4 MR. CURRIER: Yes.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, Kyla, 

6 did you have a question?

7 MEMBER SMITH: I did. Sorry, I put my 

8 hand down too soon. Sorry, I was already late to 

9 coming in.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead --

11 MEMBER SMITH: Hi, Doug, thanks for 

12 your comments.

13 MR. CURRIER: Yeah.

14 MEMBER SMITH: Two things, just wanted 

15 to sort of set the record straight on 

16 terminology. So as I understand it, leakage 

17 really is referring to, like, ion capacity. And 

18 when the resins get at capacity those, like, 

19 things that are meant to be being removed are 

20 going further into the product.

21 So is that your understanding? I just 

22 want to make sure that we're talking about the 
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1 same words here, terminology.

2 MR. CURRIER: I would agree with that, 

3 yes.

4 MEMBER SMITH: Cool, okay. Second, in 

5 regards to your, like, first part of your 

6 comment, talking about, like, you know, term. I 

7 know that Nate had asked about our terms, so 

8 that was confirmation for me.

9 And I was just looking back at OTA's 

10 written comments from, I think it was the fall. 

11 And so I don't know if you have any knowledge of 

12 this or not, but according to those comments 

13 since the FDA Modernization Act in 1997, FDA has 

14 been processing all resins through the FCN 

15 process. And so they're all listed as a food 

16 contact substance now at 21 CFR 173.25.

17 And so while the FDA, like I was 

18 saying, it could be these other things in actual, 

19 practical process there, like managing them 

20 through the FCN process. Is that your 

21 understanding?

22 MR. CURRIER: Yeah, that is. Yeah, 21 
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1 CFR 173.25 --

2 MEMBER SMITH: That's right.

3 MR. CURRIER: -- is very interesting, 

4 because all of the components of these resins are 

5 very clearly outlined, along with their 

6 pre-production calibration requirements, use 

7 limitations, things like that. But yes, that is 

8 my understanding of the FDA process for these.

9 MEMBER SMITH: Thank you.

10 MR. CURRIER: Sure.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

12 for Doug?

13 Well, Doug, I really appreciate OMRI. 

14 The technical experts in the room agreeing with 

15 the subcommittee's proposal, I think that gives 

16 us a lot of clarity. So thank you so much for 

17 coming on today.

18 MR. CURRIER: Sure, absolutely. Thank 

19 you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Lastly 

21 I think, unless Xavier Barraza is on, I think we 

22 are on our last speaker folks. So let's go with 
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1 Alan Lewis. Take us out, Alan.

2 MR. LEWIS: All right. Well, I'm 

3 going to make some general comments about the 

4 slippery slope that slides us down to the 

5 slippery cliff. And this has to do with the 

6 example of hydroponics.

7 Not long ago, a couple of families 

8 came into our community and said that they had 

9 accidentally, surreptitiously been certified on 

10 hydroponic operations. And therefore, it was 

11 essential to them to have hydroponics approved. 

12 And by hook or by crook, with the help of 

13 Stabenow, and Congress, and USDA, and NOP, and 

14 one particular set of NOSB votes, that passed and 

15 became the standard.

16 So let's do a check-in and see where 

17 that slippery slope led us. Currently, for 

18 instance, in Mexico 292 certified berry 

19 operations, most of those in the last eight 

20 years, primarily certified by CCOF.

21 What does that look like? That is 

22 relatively strong corporations going into 
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1 communities, moving the residents off the land, 

2 bulldozing it into flat fields, just tearing up 

3 the landscape, covering that with plastic, 

4 bringing in berry plants that are in plastic 

5 containers with coconut fiber, digging a 50-foot 

6 deep trench to collect the ground water from 

7 neighboring wells in order to provide water to 

8 the bushes, bringing in outside labor for a 

9 dollar or two a day.

10 But that's not paid in pesos 

11 or dollars. It's paid in company script at the 

12 company store. So those workers end up living in 

13 slums causing crime and pollution problems, and 

14 putting heavy stress on sanitation, and public 

15 services, and even schools.

16 So eventually all those berries 

17 mature, and they're packaged up by some very big 

18 international corporation that we're all very 

19 familiar with, and they're trucked up to the 

20 U.S. with a premium price. And our beloved USDA 

21 seal shows up on the packaging. Wow, are we 

22 vulnerable. And the day of reckoning is coming.
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1 Now I know that's water under the 

2 bridge. I don't know how to take that back. But 

3 my point here is that the slippery slope to the 

4 slippery cliff on gene editing and genetic 

5 manipulation is taking the same path. So when we 

6 started talking about essentiality for one, 

7 remember that that means allowable for every 

8 operator. And we need to proceed with the utmost 

9 caution.

10 I will stop there, and give you guys 

11 30 seconds back. Thank you.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I appreciate it, 

13 and we appreciate it. And we appreciate you, 

14 Alan.

15 Questions for Alan from the Board? 

16 Mindee, please go ahead.

17 MEMBER JEFFERY: Hi, thank you so 

18 much, Alan, for your commentary. And I was in 

19 Wichita last summer, and I was so grateful to be 

20 shopping in a natural grocer, so way to go, 

21 developments in the Midwest.

22 And I, you know, thinking about it a 
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1 lot, I feel like the California experience of why 

2 the organic consumer is there is very different 

3 from other places in the country. And I think, 

4 you know, I've been looking to catchup on 

5 consumer thinking, because I feel like we're in a 

6 very big societal shift post pandemic.

7 And I was wondering if Natural Grocers 

8 has done any surveys or if you have any 

9 perspective on the unusual markets of organic or 

10 developing markets of organic, and tell us why 

11 that consumer is here now? The new organic 

12 consumer, and there're not a really liberal 

13 market, like, why do they show up at Natural 

14 Grocers?

15 MR. LEWIS: I think the short answer, 

16 if I understand your question, is nobody feels 

17 well, everybody's sick, conventional healthcare 

18 is too expensive. And you can't get well if you 

19 are poisoning yourself with dirty air, dirty 

20 water, and dirty food.

21 And so that, I think, is the accepted 

22 wisdom in the marketplace right now for why 
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1 cleaner food and better-for-you food is much more 

2 popular post-pandemic. People definitely circle 

3 back to what causes the root cause of disease and 

4 illness. And there were plenty of people saying, 

5 yeah, well, we already know that. So do your 

6 best when you can to afford clean food and water.

7 MEMBER JEFFERY: Thank you, Alan.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

9 for Alan from the Board?

10 I have a question for you, Alan. And 

11 --

12 MR. LEWIS: Oh, no.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- you just gave 

14 me --

15 (Laughter.)

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- you know, just 

17 gave me real Ernie Ford vibes there with the 

18 company store. So I'm going to let Dilip go 

19 first. But the then I'm going to circle back.

20 MEMBER NANDWAN: Thank, Nate. I'm 

21 not going to take long. And I know this is the 

22 last commenter.
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1 In your comments the last sentence, 

2 you know, on gene editing, kind of caught my 

3 attention. I'm still asking a direct question. 

4 I would rather ask you, if you can tell just a 

5 very vaguely about those couple of sentences you 

6 mentioned, a little bit elaboration on gene 

7 editing and the other biotech too. Thank you.

8 MR. LEWIS: Thank you, Dilip. What 

9 we've been hearing over the last three for four 

10 years is individuals representing different 

11 interests saying gene editing is necessary. Gene 

12 editing is organic, certain operations will 

13 require it to survive drought, to survive 

14 flooding, to survive new pest threats, or 

15 whatever.

16 So that's my parallel to the 

17 essentialism of one which caused hydroponic to 

18 sneak its way in. That's obviously my opinion. 

19 When we start looking at how we're going to 

20 develop seeds for organic, we're already so 

21 vulnerable in many regards to criticism from 

22 friends and enemies about the value of organic 
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1 and its integrity. If we start allowing 

2 particular techniques for seed development, I 

3 don't see how the brand recovers and survives 

4 that. It's just GMO without pesticides.

5 That's my worry. I think that's my 

6 most direct and forceful comment I can make to 

7 you. This is moving forward in backroom 

8 conversations. It's in testimony. And I hear it 

9 among the original organic pioneers. They said,

10 oh, we used all those techniques back then to try 

11 to find new varieties.

12 If we do that, we have to pay 

13 attention to the consequences. Every exception 

14 becomes the rule. And that's my gentle but 

15 forceful warning about the process that we're 

16 into.

17 MEMBER NANDWAN: Yes. I have you. 

18 And thank you. That's really helpful. Thanks.

19 MR. LEWIS: Thank you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

21 for Alan?

22 MR. LEWIS: Nothing big, Nathaniel, 
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1 nothing big. Ha, ha, ha.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not quite, I 

3 wouldn't say it's big but going back to Mexico 

4 example, I feel like there are so many themes in 

5 how you described corporate consolidation coming 

6 in, displacing farmers.

7 And, you know, a farmer getting 

8 displaced in Mexico has a lot in common to a 

9 farmer getting displaced in Wisconsin, different 

10 reasons, maybe different tactics by corporations, 

11 but the same result of a diminished quality of 

12 life for the rural world. And what is our role 

13 in that?

14 My question for you, first question, 

15 is are we misplacing hydroponics as the culprit 

16 of berry companies going in and bulldozing 

17 Mexican villages when it's something else?

18 And so the only reason I ask this 

19 question is, and I said this a few times before, 

20 we have so little time to figure out how to make 

21 big changes that, if we're pointing at the wrong 

22 culprit that's affecting the world that we want 
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1 to live in, we're not probably going to see those 

2 changes actualized.

3 So wouldn't those berry companies be 

4 doing that even if they are soil-grown. Is there 

5 something about hydroponic? And then, let me 

6 just jump to the next piece, are we basically 

7 having hydroponic be the boogeyman for corporate 

8 consolidation?

9 That we are concerned that a little 

10 farmer with an acre isn't going to be able to 

11 have $50 million to make a booming one acre under

12 glass shop. But we're, for some reason, scared 

13 of just saying we don't like corporate 

14 consolidation. No one should like corporate 

15 consolidation. And why don't we just call a 

16 spade a spade?

17 MR. LEWIS: Yeah. Like that's not a 

18 big question. Okay.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. LEWIS: All of these operations 

21 could be extractive hydroponic berry operations 

22 without the USDA seal on them. That migration, 
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1 those 260-plus operations, were certified in the 

2 last eight years, in fact, half of them since 

3 2019, no surprise there.

4 So we can take organic out of it and 

5 talk about corporate consolidation, talk about 

6 Mexican laws and corruption, not that we are 

7 immune to that up here. I think I'm going to 

8 circle back to the global principles of 

9 sustainable development and the global principles 

10 of environmental, social, and governance 

11 disclosures.

12 We're looking at a place where that 

13 unnamed great big conglomerate that sells berries 

14 all over the place with a USDA logo on it is 

15 going to score so low on its ESG, environmental, 

16 social, governance disclosures and yet we, as a 

17 community, are putting our seal on there, or have 

18 allowed it to be used on there.

19 So trying to get to that big question, 

20 all of us try to aspire to sustainable 

21 development goals, even though they don't all 

22 apply to the global north, or not well. And we 
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1 all try to manage the environment, and social 

2 issues, and governance issues to the benefit of 

3 society, and animals, and workers, and lands, and 

4 communities.

5 I don't think that the organic law 

6 captured enough of that, or very much of that, or 

7 any of that in a lot of ways. So we, as a 

8 community, need to wrap ourselves in an 

9 additional set of principles. And if I had my 

10 way, we'd start judging our own practices and 

11 strategies according to those principles. Alas, 

12 you all are not subject to my whims.

13 (Laughter.)

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: But if we're 

15 thinking that, yes, you want to engage those 

16 principles, at what point do we say, you know, 

17 organic standards, they're great. They're fine. 

18 Let's go work on bigger things. Like, let's go 

19 and figure out how we have more pressure on 

20 corruption practices in supply chains, how we 

21 have stronger, dare I say, protectionism for our 

22 American producers.
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1 Let's just call it out again. How do 

2 we help protect American producers? This is 

3 what, behind all this veil, this is what we're 

4 talking about, folks. We're saying that we don't 

5 want foreign berries to impact our producers. I 

6 don't see why we don't say it. We don't want 

7 Vermont milk to be impacted by a Texas milk. We 

8 want to protect markets.

9 Why do we have such a hard time just 

10 saying that, and why do we keep just throwing 

11 around things like we need more certifications, 

12 we need more standards, and not just say we need 

13 to organize?

14 MR. LEWIS: Yeah, if you're looking 

15 for my agreement, I agree with you.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, well I 

17 wasn't just fishing for a compliment, Alan. I 

18 was looking for a little call to action. But 

19 maybe if you see you in LA then we can continue 

20 this discussion.

21 MR. LEWIS: Thank you.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, I 
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1 apologize. Jerry has one question for you. I 

2 thought you were off the hook, but one more.

3 MR. LEWIS: Okay.

4 MEMBER D'AMORE: I'm just going to 

5 follow on with what you said. I firmly believe 

6 that, when you take one issue and make it the 

7 boogeyman for all your concerns, that you dilute 

8 the ability to address the individual concerns 

9 well. And that's where I feel hydroponics is.

10 And, you know, it's not a mystery, I 

11 made my living for many years as a hydroponic 

12 farmer. But it should also be noted that I did 

13 that so long ago that I didn't need the organic 

14 seal, because it wasn't even there.

15 But I've set this room for real 

16 discussion with real goals in front of it. And 

17 if we start throwing everything in one pot and 

18 make it -- we're just not going to tease it out 

19 and make it right.

20 MR. LEWIS: Agreed. Yeah, thank you.

21 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you, sir. No, 

22 great talking to you, appreciate it.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn told me at 

2 the fall, I know it's the meeting that I need to 

3 cry less. So I'm going to practice that now.

4 MEMBER DIMITRI: Thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Because I really 

6 --

7 (Simultaneous speaking.)

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- I really 

9 appreciate the conversations these past two days, 

10 folks. This is has been truly wonderful. We ran 

11 hard, we ran fast, we ran long. But we really 

12 covered some great ground. So thank you to my 

13 fellow members who asked some fantastic 

14 questions. I was taking notes furiously, because 

15 there were so many good ideas.

16 And thank you to everybody who 

17 participated, especially those farmers who got of 

18 the tractor, got on the horn, and told us what 

19 you thought. So thank you everybody. And we are 

20 just so stoked to see you next week. So travel 

21 safe, everybody, and take care for now.

22 MEMBER D'AMORE: Nate, from a 
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1 colleague let me say, tears or no tears, great 

2 job. Well done.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. I 

4 appreciate it.

5 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

6 went off the record at 5:38 p.m.)

7

8

9

10

11
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

SPRING 2023 MEETING

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

APRIL 25, 2023

+ + + + +

The Board met at the Crowne Plaza 

Atlanta Midtown 590 West Peachtree Street, NW 

Atlanta, Georgia, at 10:00 a.m., Nathaniel 

Powell-Palm, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH

AMY BRUCH, Secretary

BRIAN CALDWELL

GERARD D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

NATHANIEL LEWIS

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

FRANKLIN QUARCOO

WOOD TURNER
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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

FRED DAVID, Assistant Director, Standards 

Division

ERIN HEALY, Director, Standards Division

ANDREA HOLM, Agricultural Marketing Specialist

ALEXIS McINERNEY, Program Analyst

JOHANNA MIRENDA, Agricultural Marketing 

Specialist

JENNIFER TUCKER, Ph.D., Deputy Administrator

ROBERT YANG, Director, Accreditation Division

PENNY ZUCK, Agricultural Marketing Specialist
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AGENDA

Call to Order ................................. 4

Agenda Overview ............................... 6

NOP Introductions ............................. 8

Welcoming Remarks ............................ 23

Secretary's Report .......................... 107

Chair's report .............................. 108

USDA/AMS/National Organic Program 

Update and NOP - NOSB Q&A ................... 113

Compliance, Accreditation & 

Certification Subcommittee (CACS) Update .... 155

Adjourn ..................................... 264
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (10:06 a.m.)

3 DR. TUCKER: All right, so we are now 

4 officially opening the meeting. Good morning, 

5 everyone. 

6 We have a contingent online now? Yes? 

7 Yeah, people are joining on Zoom? Okay, I'm 

8 getting some head nods so that's good.

9 So good morning, everyone. I'm 

10 Jennifer Tucker, Deputy Administrator of the 

11 National Organic Program. Welcome to all our 

12 board members and our audience, both in the room 

13 and we do have an audience online, on Zoom. So 

14 thank you for being here both in the room and 

15 online.

16 It is my honor to officially open the 

17 Spring 2023 National Organic Standards Board 

18 meeting. I would like to particularly welcome 

19 our two new board members, Dr. Franklin Quarcoo 

20 from Tuskegee University in Alabama and Nate 

21 Lewis from the Washington Farmland Trust in 

22 Washington State.
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1 They just very recently joined the 

2 Board, and let's give them a big round of 

3 applause. There's Nate and Franklin. If you're 

4 on Zoom, you can clap like this. We are 

5 observing you in spirit. Okay.

6 This is our second meeting in-person 

7 and broadcasting online in the post-pandemic 

8 world. So we look forward to continuing this 

9 cadence of engagement.

10 Let's start with some official 

11 business. This meeting, like other meetings of 

12 the National Organic Standards Board, is being 

13 run based on the Federal Advisory Committee Act 

14 and the Board's Policy and Procedures Manual.

15 I am your designated federal officer. 

16 And transcripts for all segments will be posted 

17 once completed. 

18 Now we'll take a quick look at the 

19 agenda and I'll introduce members of the NOP 

20 team. I'll then turn the floor over to Nate 

21 Powell-Palm, Board Chair, for Board 

22 introductions.
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1 So first, the agenda. This morning 

2 will include introductions, some welcoming talks 

3 from the Southeast Region Transition to Organic 

4 Partnership Program or TOPP, some board reports, 

5 a program update with questions and answers from 

6 the Board.

7 We'll break for lunch and then we'll 

8 return to begin the subcommittee work. We'll 

9 continue subcommittee work through tomorrow along 

10 with an update from the USDA National 

11 Agricultural Statistics Service or NASS. The 

12 work will continue into Thursday and we'll close

13 with some board business and a look ahead.

14 I want to close the segment by 

15 thanking the National Organic Program team. So 

16 first, let's all thank Michelle Arsenault, our 

17 advisory board specialist. She provides 

18 exceptional support for the board.

19 We also have a number of team members 

20 from Standards and from the broader NOP team here 

21 to support the meeting and, for some of them, to 

22 learn. So folks who are in the room, please 
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1 stand and wave when I call your name.

2 So we have Standards Director Erin 

3 Healy. There's Erin. We've got Assistant 

4 Director Fred David. Fred's new to the program. 

5 Jared Clark, next to me, is our National List 

6 Manager. Andrea Holm, with our Standards 

7 Division. Johanna Mirenda, our latest addition 

8 to the program. 

9 Penny Zuck and Alexis McInerney, who 

10 are both with our Office of Deputy Administrator. 

11 And we have Robert Yang, our Director of 

12 Accreditation Division. Robert may be engaged in 

13 oversight meetings. 

14 So next I'm going to turn the mic over 

15 Nate Powell-Palm, our Board Chair. He'll be 

16 introducing Board members. All of these members 

17 devote hours and hours of volunteer time to serve 

18 the organic community. Let's please give them a 

19 big round of applause and appreciation. 

20 Nate, thank you for your leadership. 

21 You have the floor.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 
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1 Jenny, really exciting agenda for today. Excited 

2 to hear from folks local to this area and really 

3 appreciate everyone making the time to join us.

4 For a round of board introductions, 

5 I'm hoping we can just go around and say where 

6 we're from, the seat that we sit in and what 

7 we're excited about this spring. I feel like it 

8 has been a long, hard winter for a lot of us. 

9 And I think that this meeting represents a bit of 

10 a renewal. 

11 So Carolyn, can we start on your side 

12 and then we do have, for everyone's information, 

13 we are experiencing a bit of a Meta situation 

14 where we have Mindee and Allison in the hotel, 

15 but they're going to be on Zoom because neither 

16 are feeling well today. 

17 So we're going to go around and then 

18 we'll have them give their introductions last. 

19 So if you'd get us kicked off, Carolyn?

20 MEMBER DIMITRI: Sure. Good morning, 

21 everyone. I'm Carolyn Dimitri. I'm a professor 

22 at New York University. I sit in -- oh, here, 
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1 let me start again. 

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: There we go.

3 MEMBER DIMITRI: Hi, I'm Carolyn 

4 Dimitri. I'm a professor at New York University. 

5 I sit in a consumer's seat and I'm excited about 

6 the spring flowers.

7 MEMBER PETREY: Hi, I'm Logan Petrey. 

8 I am in the farmer's seat. I work for Grimmway 

9 Farms, the organic farm manager there. And I'm 

10 excited -- this is my first in-person meeting, so 

11 I'm excited to see how all this plays out.

12 MEMBER TURNER: I'm Wood Turner. I 

13 lead impact efforts for Agriculture Capital based 

14 on San Francisco Bay area, Berkeley. And I'm 

15 excited about just being somewhere where there's 

16 a real spring. It's great. 

17 MEMBER QUARCOO: I'm Franklin Quarcoo. 

18 I'm an entomologist by training. I work at 

19 Tuskegee University as a faculty member. And I'm 

20 on the Environment, Transportation and National 

21 Resources. I'm just excited to be here. This is 

22 my first board meeting and my first big meeting. 
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1 So, yeah, thank you. 

2 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi, good morning. 

3 I'm Kimberly Huseman. I sit in a handler's seat. 

4 I am the Director of Organic & Specialty 

5 Ingredient Purchasing for Pilgrim's Poultry 

6 Company. Let's see, coming from Colorado, I am 

7 really excited to get some spring planting 

8 underway and to see some fields being worked. So 

9 it's going on somewhere in the U.S., just

10 definitely not in my state right now.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'll go last. Do 

12 you want to go, Amy?

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Good morning, all. My 

14 name's Amy Bruch. I'm a 6th-generation farmer. 

15 My family farms are located in Nebraska and I've 

16 had both domestic and international experience 

17 farming. Let's see, what I'm excited about? 

18 Well, there's so many things. With spring, 

19 brings a lot of potential.

20 But coming off of our most recent oral 

21 comments, I'm really excited to continue to 

22 represent the farmer voice. We had a lot of 
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1 representation with our oral comments and written 

2 comments about -- from farmers -- and I'm just 

3 really excited to be here to represent their 

4 voices. Thank you.

5 MEMBER SMITH: Good morning. My 

6 name's Kyla Smith. I am sitting in the 

7 certifier's seat. I work for PCO. We're a 

8 certifier based in Central Pennsylvania. We 

9 certify nationwide but mostly focused in the 

10 mid-Atlantic. I am based in Central 

11 Pennsylvania. We're not far from our office in 

12 State College. 

13 And I am excited to see how certifiers 

14 work together to implement strengthening organic 

15 enforcement. It's equally, like super exciting 

16 and terrifying all at the same time. And PCO is 

17 also one of the top regional leads and I'm 

18 excited to continue that work as well. It's been 

19 such a great partnership thus far. And so those 

20 are two really exciting opportunities for the 

21 industry. Thanks.

22 MEMBER D'AMORE: Good morning, Jerry 
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1 D'Amore here. I sort of see the light at the end 

2 of the tunnel with my fourth year in the 

3 handler's seat. Didn't know it would go so fast. 

4

5 I live in North Monterey County in 

6 California and, which is the strawberry capital 

7 of the world, the garlic capital of the world and 

8 the artichoke capital of the world, a lot going 

9 on in specialty crops there.

10 I've been involved in food production 

11 and marketing for nearly 50 years. Half of that 

12 time I was an owner/operator in the hydroponic 

13 systems growing a wide range of low-profile crops 

14 and also vine crops.

15 The last 25 years I have been involved 

16 in post-harvest activity including cold chain 

17 management and go-to-market operations. I'm just 

18 excited to be here. Thank you.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

20 MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning. My 

21 name is Dilip Nandwani. I'm a professor at 

22 Tennessee State University, Department of 
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1 Agriculture. And I'm sitting here in scientist 

2 seat on the Board. 

3 And I'm based in Nashville, Tennessee 

4 and very much excited attending second in-person 

5 meeting in second year and meeting all these, our 

6 stake holders and our colleagues here. Glad to 

7 be here. Thank you.

8 MEMBER LEWIS: Hey, folks, Nate Lewis 

9 sitting in the Resource Conservation seat. I 

10 work for Washington Farmland Trust, Agricultural 

11 Land Trust in Washington state dedicated to 

12 preserve Washington's Ag lands and keep them in 

13 working condition and available to farmers.

14 We preserved over 30 -- or 3,000 acres 

15 in 30 farms across primarily western Washington. 

16 And this spring I'm excited about closing a new 

17 project using some state funds that are kind of 

18 unique in the country where it allows land trusts 

19 to participate on the open market with affordable 

20 loans.

21 And we're working with the Black Food 

22 Sovereignty Coalition there to get their flagship 
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1 farm set up in Centralia, Washington, about 

2 halfway between Seattle and Portland.

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Hi. I'm Brian 

4 Caldwell. I'm in a consumer and public interest 

5 seat. And I'm very grateful to -- and I'm based 

6 in central New York. I live in central New York, 

7 have a little farm there, been certified since 

8 1986. 

9 And I'm very grateful to Nate to give 

10 us -- that he gave us a easy ice-breaker because 

11 I remember last year it kind of fried my brain 

12 early in the meeting.

13 But as excited as I am to be here, I'm 

14 even more excited that in 10 days my son is 

15 getting married, and I'm -- that's really psyched 

16 about that.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee, online, 

18 are you able to --

19 VICE-CHAIR JEFFERY: Hi, pleased to be 

20 --

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead.

22 VICE-CHAIR JEFFERY: Yeah, can you 
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1 hear me? Thank you.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can.

3 VICE-CHAIR JEFFERY: My name is Mindee 

4 Jeffery and I sit in the Retailers seat. I work 

5 for Good Earth Natural Foods in Northern 

6 California. And as much as I have been so 

7 grateful for the rain, I am more grateful that 

8 the rain has slowed down and we have great 

9 flowers.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wonderful. 

11 Allison, are you there?

12 MEMBER JOHNSON: Hi. Good morning, 

13 everyone. Can you hear me?

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

15 MEMBER JOHNSON: Okay. Hi, I'm so 

16 sorry to not be with you in the room today but 

17 hopefully tomorrow. I'm Allison Johnson. I'm a 

18 senior attorney with the Natural Resources 

19 Defense Council and I sit in the Consumer Public 

20 Interest seat.

21 A lot of my work focuses on expanding 

22 support for organic agriculture through public 
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1 policy, and so I'm very excited this spring is 

2 full-blown from this season in addition to coming 

3 up on planting season. 

4 So I'm going to be looking at ways to 

5 bring more resources to Organic this year through 

6 federal policy. And I hope to be there with you 

7 all tomorrow.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. And 

9 I'm Nate Powell-Palm. And I'm based out of 

10 Bozeman, Montana. I sit in one of the farmer 

11 seats. And I raise a couple thousand acres of 

12 grain crops -- beef cattle hay. 

13 And I am really excited for our two 

14 new members. And I want to welcome them again. 

15 But it's really exciting to see so much future 

16 leadership potential. Our pipeline is full, 

17 folks.

18 We've got so many excellent members. 

19 And I think it's -- something is going right when 

20 I think of myself as not the smartest person in 

21 the room, that we have a lot of brilliant people 

22 on this board doing great work.
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1 And I'm grateful for all of the work 

2 that they put into it. I think that there's also 

3 a lot of evidence of hope in our community, that 

4 I'm really excited to see TOPP are allowed, 

5 really excited to see quite the optimistic, that 

6 the administration sees organic as something to 

7 celebrate, something to point to as a means of 

8 addressing a lot of our concerns environmentally 

9 and agriculturally.

10 And I think all of that compounds into 

11 why we meet here today, to continue this work. 

12 So thank you for being here. And with that, I'll 

13 hand it back to Jenny.

14 TOPP OVERVIEW

15 DR. TUCKER: Okay, I'm going to be 

16 introducing our welcoming speaker chair. 

17 Before we do that, I just want to say, 

18 let's give a thanks to the AV folks, the fact 

19 that at the last minute we added two folks that 

20 are projecting in the room and we're broadcasting 

21 on Zoom and in the room. That actually -- you 

22 don't just do that. So, guys, thank you so much, 
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1 yeah.

2 Okay, we are so lucky to be where we 

3 are in this time and place. Last fall, the 

4 administration announced something called the 

5 Organic Transition Initiative or OTI. So we have 

6 all sorts of new acronyms for our vocabulary. 

7 So OTI is Organic Transition 

8 Initiative. It is a $300 million initiative to 

9 support existing and transitioning farmers who 

10 want to explore and engage in the organic option. 

11 So to be here today, six months later, 

12 and to be able to hear from members of one of our 

13 six regions who have already stood up their 

14 program are already doing field days is really 

15 remarkable.

16 And so the Transition to Organic 

17 Partnership Program, TOPP, T-O-P-P, is $100 

18 million program of that broader OTI, Organic 

19 Transition Initiative program. We have sat up 

20 six regional partnerships across the United 

21 States.

22 And those partnerships, each of those 
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1 partnerships includes states that already have a 

2 number of organic farmers and states that don't, 

3 so states that are under-represented in organic. 

4 So today, for welcoming remarks, 

5 you're going to be hearing from some of the 

6 partners in the Southeast region. And they have 

7 a very, very impressive team. They, again, have 

8 already, in just six months, stood up a program 

9 and are already doing field days and are really 

10 having the difficult conversations about what is 

11 going to get funded and how are we going to serve 

12 this community best.

13 So the five areas for each region is 

14 each region is setting up a mentor/mentee program 

15 of connecting local farmers in organic with 

16 farmers who are new to organic, interested in 

17 potentially transitioning to organic.

18 There's a second piece that's an 

19 emphasis on local technical assistance. So local 

20 field days of bringing folks together on the 

21 ground to find out what are they growing, what 

22 are their past management techniques, what are 
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1 their crop rotations. 

2 Where do the markets live, so it's 

3 also about business planning and market 

4 development, understanding how to negotiate 

5 contracts with local supply chains, international 

6 supply chains, all of the things that go into 

7 organic farming.

8 It's not just the regulations but the 

9 whole picture of what it takes to be successful, 

10 so really that local support and technical 

11 assistance.

12 A third area is workforce development, 

13 so that's developing expertise in organic farms 

14 but also the generation that will oversee those 

15 organic farms for inspectors and certification 

16 staff. 

17 There's also a community building 

18 aspect. And we're talking about real local 

19 community building where organic folks can find 

20 each other in communities of interest within 

21 their region. So there are a lot of partners to 

22 do this.
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1 The fifth area is data reporting, what 

2 kind of impact are we having. We are right now, 

3 as organic, a fairly small proportion of the 

4 acreage in the United States. How do we get that 

5 number up. And so for folks to say, but Jenny, 

6 you're just talking about numbers, numbers are 

7 part of this.

8 How do we get more farmers into the 

9 pipeline? How do we get more acres into the 

10 pipeline for organic because it's good for the 

11 planet. It's good for people. It's 

12 climate-smart agriculture, right. So how do we 

13 support this community in growing and growing 

14 both our numbers and our acreage.

15 So there is lots of goals in there for 

16 the transition program. So I wanted to give that 

17 broad view from kind of the federal program. We 

18 are running TOPP out of the National Organic 

19 Program.

20 And so, again, we're incredibly lucky 

21 to have the Southeast region that is doing such a 

22 superb job of standing up a program and is here 
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1 to talk to you about it. 

2 And so I'm going to, in the interest 

3 of the partnership, I'm going to share the names. 

4 But then they're going to talk more about what 

5 they're doing and their affiliation.

6 So the first speaker is going to be 

7 Billy Mitchell. And Billy's actually the project 

8 manager for the TOPP, a program in the Southeast 

9 region. And so Billy will be introducing the 

10 rest of his team. 

11 He's with Florida Organic Growers. 

12 Each of the regions has a lead partner that holds 

13 the agreement with USDA. And they're responsible 

14 for building the partnerships within their 

15 region. 

16 So Florida Organic Growers is the 

17 largest non-profit certifier affiliated 

18 association in the Southeast. So they are 

19 leading that team. And so Billy will be 

20 introducing Roland McReynolds, Donn Cooper, 

21 Michael Wall, Paul Sorah and Dr. Shandrea 

22 Stallworth.
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1 And he'll say a little bit more about 

2 who they're with and then they will each be 

3 speaking with you today. So I want to really 

4 thank the panel for being here. You guys are --

5 you're building this and it's really -- it's very 

6 moving to see this work happening. 

7 To go, again, from six months, from an 

8 announcement, to having you here to talk about 

9 what you're doing is just phenomenal. So thank 

10 you. We're grateful. Billy, come on up and take 

11 the mic.

12 MR. MITCHELL: All right, we are good. 

13 Good morning, you all. It's good to see 

14 everybody here. We do have some slides, if we 

15 want to use them. Oh, it's on mute. That's why 

16 we don't see it. It's good when the problem is 

17 you instead, Ms. Taylor Swift's song. Here we 

18 go.

19 So I do want to say good morning again 

20 and just, on behalf of Florida Organic Growers, 

21 FOG for short, and TOPP, I'm so glad to welcome 

22 you all to the NOSB meeting here in Georgia. 
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1 Georgia's a place that's very close to my heart 

2 and it's just an honor to share the stage with 

3 some friends and colleagues that I've made doing 

4 this work in Georgia.

5 In order of appearance, Donn Cooper 

6 from the Georgia Organic Peanut Association, 

7 Shandrea Stallworth from Rodale Southeast Organic 

8 Center, Roland McReynolds from the Carolina Farm 

9 Stewardship Association and hometown hero, 

10 Michael Wall, from Georgia Organics.

11 I also just want to recognize the rest 

12 of the team at FOG. Working directly on TOPP 

13 there's Executive Director Ramkrishnan and you 

14 all might know him as Ram; Education Outreach 

15 Specialist Juan Carlos and Project Manager Kyndra 

16 Love.

17 And thank you, Jenny, for giving the 

18 overview on TOPP because I can skip this slide, 

19 but we're going to come back to it. 

20 In the Southeast, FOG is just working 

21 alongside this amazing collection of partners in 

22 seven states and two territories. Our partners 
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1 include community-based organizations like Fresh 

2 Central in Louisiana and the Virgin Island Farmer 

3 Alliance and universities like NC State, 

4 University of Florida, Alcorn and Tuskegee.

5 And this work is led by organizations 

6 and producers that reflect the communities that 

7 they serve. And we continue to seek and engage 

8 new partnerships including groups that work with 

9 and live in tribal agricultural communities.

10 And so I'll come back to what we're 

11 going to cover. And our session today is ended 

12 by Paul Sorah of Hearts of Harvest Farm. And I'd 

13 like to highlight the work that Paul and his crew 

14 already do to provide some of the examples of the 

15 work TOPP will do and support.

16 And so the first is mentorship. And 

17 Paul, like so many farmers and producers you 

18 know, is always in conversation with other 

19 producers, receiving and giving unpaid advice and 

20 support. 

21 And this Farmer-to-Farmer mentorship 

22 program, supported by organizations like Georgia 
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1 Organics, the University of Puerto Rico, Organic 

2 Growers' School, will provide transitioning 

3 farmers like Paul formal paid and sustainable 

4 mentorship from certified organic producers.

5 The second piece is community 

6 building. And Hearts of Harvest, they just 

7 attend fact-to-face networking opportunities and 

8 they host events on their farm. You also just 

9 see them out at market and you'll see their 

10 produce at community events.

11 And organizations like ASAN in Alabama 

12 and SAAFON, who cover the Southeast will continue 

13 to build community with their producers in 

14 similar ways, hosting on-farm gatherings and 

15 connecting their producers with resources.

16 The next part is technical assistance 

17 and training. In Hearts of Harvest, their crew, 

18 their farmers, they trust their service providers 

19 and they share the challenges that their farms 

20 fact but also the on-farm solutions that they 

21 develop. And that informs field days.

22 Later today, you'll see a photo of a 
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1 field day that Paul and I were at just a couple 

2 weeks ago. And that trust just build better 

3 resources, better education. And some of our 

4 partners, like Florida A&M and NCAT, they have 

5 that level of trust with their producers and they 

6 collaborate to identify barriers, uplift 

7 practical solutions and translate all these rules 

8 and regulations into plain language.

9 And this level of engagement will 

10 create producer-led and producer-informed 

11 technical assistance resources and events that 

12 are going to benefit our entire region and I 

13 think the community nationally.

14 The last piece I want to touch on with 

15 Hearts of Harvest is workforce training because, 

16 you all, Hearts of Harvest cultivate this 

17 positive and sustainable environment for their 

18 crew. They educate future growers and they 

19 provide great jobs. 

20 And, like, word is out in our farming 

21 community. People want to work at their farm. 

22 And their high quality products, then, created 
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1 and support jobs across the industry. There's 

2 market staff, aggregators in all the jobs 

3 involved in their future certification. 

4 And partners like Emory Oxford Farm 

5 and Valencia College, they're going to research 

6 and provide the education and support needed to 

7 help fill these vital roles across the organic 

8 workforce. 

9 And this is unrelated but very 

10 important, is Hearts of Harvest farm strawberries 

11 are like out of this world, delicious. And 

12 Carolyn, you should know that their flowers --

13 well, everybody -- will take your breath away. 

14 They are just beautiful. 

15 And I want to end by saying thank you 

16 to the USDA for providing this opportunity and 

17 funding to meet the challenges that the organic 

18 sector faces and to build stronger local, 

19 regional and national organic communities, 

20 communities committed to organic practices.

21 And this is not just me buttering up 

22 the USDA's biscuit. Like, we truly believe our 
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1 partners and producers are going to create 

2 long-term meaningful change.

3 And so with that, I'll pass the mic to 

4 Donn Cooper and then Shandrea and Roland and then 

5 Michael and Paul. So thanks, you all.

6 MR. COOPER: Good morning, everyone. 

7 I don't have any slides. I just want to give you 

8 a brief introduction to the Georgia Organic 

9 Peanut Association. Good morning. Thank you for 

10 having us here today.

11 My name is Donn Cooper. I am the 

12 former Programs Director for the Georgia Organic 

13 Peanut Association, GOPA for short. We are a 

14 not-for-profit farmer-owned cooperative organized 

15 here in the state.

16 I work alongside my wife, Perri, who 

17 unfortunately could not be here today. We do 

18 have a name for her. And my wife and I, apart 

19 from, we fell in love working on organic peanuts. 

20 And so this is a dream come true to be 

21 able to present to you about this today. She's 

22 actually at home with our 10-month-old baby. 
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1 Otherwise, I know she really wishes she could be 

2 here.

3 Unfortunately, not only could she not 

4 be here today but neither of our farmers could be 

5 here as well. Our board members are all farmers. 

6 They are back in southwest Georgia and they are 

7 preparing their fields and prepping to plant over 

8 the next couple weeks.

9 The cooperative was formed in 2019 to 

10 help farmers market certified organic peanuts and 

11 other commodities. Georgia's the largest 

12 peanut-producing state in the U.S. but until GOPA 

13 there were no organic peanuts being grown 

14 commercially at scale in the state.

15 We are very much a startup 

16 organization with all the promise and problems 

17 that you can imagine. But individual farmers and 

18 supporting groups such as Georgia Organic have 

19 been working for over a decade to bring this 

20 industry to fruition.

21 There's still extensive work to do and 

22 we are grateful to a part of the TOPP initiative 
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1 to help move certified organic agriculture 

2 forward in Georgia and the region. GOPA 

3 purchases certified organic peanuts from farmers 

4 in Georgia, Florida and Alabama. It aggregates 

5 that crop and it has it processed through 

6 shelling and blanching and then markets the final 

7 product. It sounds very simple but nothing could 

8 be farther from the truth. 

9 The certified organic supply chain 

10 would not exist without the efforts of GOPA and 

11 its farmers but it is still extremely fragile. 

12 There's currently only one certified organic 

13 seller in the state. Obviously, if they lose 

14 their certification, there is no organic peanut 

15 industry.

16 And further, processing is very 

17 limited. And organic peanut production in the 

18 subtropical environment of Georgia presents some 

19 very daunting challenges, some which are so 

20 daunting, in fact, that our farmers have walked 

21 away from fields in the middle of the season 

22 because there was no -- they could not harvest 
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1 the peanuts.

2 Our farmers are fortunate to yield a 

3 quarter of what the best conventional peanut 

4 grower can yield in Georgia. And it would be --

5 it's very good if we can get a ton an acre. And 

6 a very good conventional peanut farmer will grow 

7 8,000 pounds an acre.

8 Facing these issues to the organic 

9 industry and to the organic systems, GOPA's 

10 mission and work is as much about outreach and 

11 education. Certified organic peanut production 

12 presents an opportunity for beginning, smaller 

13 and under-served farmers to enter the market and 

14 to maximize their revenue.

15 However, there is a very steep 

16 learning curve, particularly with regard to 

17 seeding and weed control. And we need mentoring 

18 and education-led and farmer-led research and 

19 innovation for both new farmers and transitioning 

20 farmers.

21 We need to continue our research, 

22 processors and the supply chain to educate them 
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1 about organic certification and the demand for 

2 organics in general. Lastly, we must continue to 

3 invest in farmer-led research to develop 

4 productive crop rotations and resilient organic 

5 systems in our soils and our climate.

6 TOPP will enable us to do this work. 

7 And we want to thank Florida Organic Growers for 

8 including us in this exciting project. 

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And to the Board, 

10 if you have questions for our speakers, let's 

11 take them in real time. Go ahead, Jerry.

12 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you. I'm 

13 sorry, I sort of zoned out when you went over the 

14 statistic of pounds per acre between conventional 

15 and organic. And it struck me, what I did hear, 

16 as it being pretty phenomenal. Could you repeat 

17 that?

18 MR. COOPER: A good conventional 

19 peanut farmer in the state will grow 8,000 pounds 

20 an acre. And if we're lucky, 2,000 pounds --

21 very, very good farms 3,000 pounds.

22 And just very briefly, our basic issue 
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1 are weeds. Our weeds are unbelievable in 

2 southeast Georgia and we have no effective 

3 herbicides. So we have to get a stand, very 

4 good. That needs to spread and we have to 

5 mechanically cultivate quite a bit.

6 And the last couple years, it's rained 

7 30 days straight in June and July. And that's no 

8 --

9 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you. That's an 

10 uphill battle you got there.

11 MR. COOPER: Yeah.

12 DR. STALLWORTH: Good morning. I'm 

13 Dr. Shandrea Stallworth with Rodale Institute. 

14 And I serve as our southeast organic consultant.

15 First, I want to thank Billy Mitchell 

16 for including Rodale Institute in this 

17 partnership as we continue to build organic in 

18 the southeast. 

19 I come from a weed science background 

20 so hearing our farmers discuss the pressures that 

21 happen in the southeast, I'm very familiar with 

22 it. I trained at Mississippi State University 
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1 where I worked directly with weeds in developing 

2 and identifying genes that we can use instead of 

3 applying herbicides in fields.

4 We know that we have a large amount of 

5 competition that exists. And Rodale Institute 

6 saw the value in the skills that I brought and 

7 decided to bring me on as a consultant. 

8 So unfortunately, my slides did not 

9 make it in, but with the southeast TOPP program 

10 we will be offering 450 hours of technical 

11 service to our farmers. These services cover a 

12 wide range of consulting services from 

13 agri-economic assistance to site visits to help 

14 our farmers get ready for certification.

15 Our consultants have been trained by 

16 Nate Powell-Palm in organic inspection. That's 

17 one of the things that we value and stand on, is 

18 that our consultants know what is needed to be 

19 certified. And we want to be able to have that 

20 hand for our organic producers.

21 In my slides, you would see my team 

22 has now grown to 13. We're very young. We have 
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1 been with Rodale now going on four years. And in 

2 those four years, we've gone from two consultants 

3 now to what you see here in the photo. And we 

4 recently added one in the last three months.

5 Ben will be servicing our Iowa area. 

6 And we try to place our consultants anywhere that 

7 we have a south -- or a organic resource center. 

8 So right now we have five of those across the 

9 U.S.

10 You see our concentration in the 

11 northeast, so we have two of those, one in 

12 Pennsylvania where we're headquartered. We have 

13 our Poconos research center that does a lot of 

14 our hemp research.

15 Here in the southeast we're focusing 

16 on vegetable production and identifying what 

17 varieties do well for our organic producers. 

18 We're also trying to reduce the use of plastic 

19 mulch in organic production. We have a number of 

20 grants that are being serviced outside of our 

21 Southeast Organic Center. That's located less 

22 than 25 minutes from Atlanta.
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1 We have these that range all the way 

2 over to our newest acquisition with our Pacific 

3 Northwest Center that we will be now developing. 

4 And so one of the great things about this is 

5 that Rodale is also a part of the TOPP 

6 discussions going on across the U.S.

7 And so we're happy to be here and be 

8 able to help our farmers understand the NOP and 

9 help them succeed in a way that we know they can. 

10 And being in the southeast and recognizing the 

11 challenges that come with organic production, I'm 

12 just happy to be a part of it because the 

13 southeast is home for me. Thank you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Real quick, any 

15 questions for Dr. Stallworth? All right, thank 

16 you so much. 

17 MR. McREYNOLDS: Good morning, 

18 everyone. My name's Roland McReynolds. I'm 

19 Executive Director with Carolina Farm Stewardship 

20 Association. 

21 Thank you very much to the National 

22 Organic Standards Board, the National Organic 
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1 Program for being here. Thank you all for being 

2 a part of the meeting. And thanks to Florida 

3 Organic Growers for involving our organization in 

4 the Southeast TOPP Program.

5 Just a little bit of background about 

6 Carolina Farm Stewardship Association. We are a 

7 member-driven, we are a farmer-driven, 

8 member-based 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization 

9 serving North and South Carolina with a mission 

10 to help people grow and eat local organic food.

11 We've been around -- next year will be 

12 our 45th anniversary of existence as an 

13 organization. And we provide a range of services 

14 to support farmers and businesses entering the 

15 markets for local organic products in the 

16 Carolinas.

17 We actually began our organizational 

18 history as an organic certifier prior to the 

19 establishment of the National Organic Program. 

20 And since the establishment of the program, we 

21 have focused our work more in terms of education 

22 and support for farmers.
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1 So, for instance, we host a couple of 

2 different conferences annually for organic and 

3 transitioning farmers including conferences that 

4 are focused on small scale vegetable producers 

5 and conferences focused on mid-scale commodity --

6 producers of organic commodities.

7 We support research and conduct 

8 on-farm -- work with farmers to conduct on-farm 

9 research activities such as variety trials. We 

10 run an organic certified farm incubator in the 

11 Charlotte, North Carolina area, the Elma C. Lomax 

12 Research & Education Farm. And that is also a 

13 facility where we conduct some of our 

14 participatory research programs.

15 We're a partner in a couple of 

16 different climate-smart commodity partnerships to 

17 further advance that research in the southeast. 

18 And we provide a wide range of technical 

19 assistance and consulting services for farmers in 

20 North and South Carolina in terms of helping them 

21 to adopt organic high-tunnel farming practices, 

22 conservation practices, helping them to draft and 
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1 develop organic systems plans.

2 We're certified as a technical service 

3 provider with the Natural Resources Conservation 

4 Service, and have done that for at least seven 

5 years, to support farmers.

6 So our role in the Transition to 

7 Organic Partnership in the southeast is as sort 

8 of a sub-regional convener for North and South 

9 Carolina. The Carolinas have a constellation of 

10 existing NGOs and land grant institutions that 

11 have been working to promote organic agriculture 

12 and support small-scale and mid-scale farms for a 

13 long time.

14 A measure of that success that, in the 

15 past, it has been the growth of organic 

16 agriculture in North and South Carolina. And as 

17 you may be aware, North Carolina is the eighth 

18 ranked state in organic production -- by sales --

19 in the country and the leading state in the 

20 southeast TOPP region for production for organic 

21 sales.

22 What we're excited about with the 
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1 southeast TOPP program is that it is providing us 

2 and those partner organizations greater bandwidth 

3 for us to collaborate in a holistic manner to 

4 further expand opportunities for organic 

5 agriculture in North and South Carolina. 

6 Issues that are collective have identified 

7 in common that are necessary to support the 

8 increased adoption of organic production, 

9 especially for small and mid-size farms, is 

10 supply chain infrastructure from increased 

11 on-farm packing and storage for small-scale 

12 vegetable producers to local organic grain 

13 marketing facilities -- I'm sorry, my notes are 

14 kind of scratchy here -- and as well as 

15 independent livestock and poultry processing 

16 capacity. 

17 As well, other issues that we are 

18 looking forward to addressing for the program are 

19 increase in small and mid-scale farms' access to 

20 conservation program funding that supports the 

21 transition to organic, providing farm business 

22 decision support tools that allow farmers to sort 
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1 of pencil out how they're going to be successful 

2 in organic production and increasing access to 

3 risk management tools that are scale-appropriate 

4 for small and mid-sized farms in particular.

5 This programs presents a great 

6 opportunity over the next five years. We're 

7 really thrilled to be a part of it. And we look 

8 forward to continuing to report to you all on the 

9 progress. And I'm glad to take any questions. 

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah, Amy then 

11 Kyla, then Jerry.

12 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah, just a quick 

13 question -- oh.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Go ahead, no, no.

15 MEMBER D'AMORE: Oh, no, no, no. 

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Go ahead.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We'll go Amy, 

18 Kyla, Jerry.

19 MEMBER D'AMORE: No, no, please. 

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead.

21 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you so much 

22 for your time today and your --
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1 MR. McREYNOLDS: Sure.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: -- information. You 

3 mentioned about increasing access to risk 

4 management tools. Can you define that a little 

5 bit more for me, please? 

6 MR. McREYNOLDS: You know, it comes in 

7 different shapes. I was having a conversation 

8 with a small farm operator just recently who I'd 

9 been trying to talk to about, well, have you 

10 looked at, you know, certain FSA loans or whole 

11 farm revenue insurance.

12 And he said, you know, I can spend 

13 $800 on row covers to double row covers for my 

14 crops and I will get more -- I will guarantee 

15 more my production out of that than I will paying 

16 for an insurance policy that may, if it pays, 

17 will pay next year, after I file my taxes and 

18 after I've already had to start farming for next 

19 year.

20 So I think it's not just the insurance 

21 tools and the loans. It's also how do we support 

22 farmers to do practical scale-appropriate things 
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1 that are more about their production systems, 

2 supporting their production systems so they 

3 reduce their costs of production and therefore 

4 make it easier to adapt to the risks in 

5 agriculture.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Great, thank you. Yes, 

7 I appreciate just kind of talking a little bit 

8 more about the FSA component too. And one thing, 

9 and maybe your group is exploring this already, 

10 but for the FSAs they have this thing called 

11 storage loans which is --

12 MR. McREYNOLDS: Yes.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: -- if you have 

14 inventory -- okay.

15 MR. McREYNOLDS: Yes.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Is it being looked at, 

17 that these storage loans need to reflect 

18 transition or where organic pricing they are 

19 available to organic producers. However, they 

20 default on the loan value of conventional 

21 commodities. Is that a component that's being 

22 looked at?
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1 MR. McREYNOLDS: It is and in 

2 particular our experience in looking at that 

3 program is more with respect to small-scale fruit 

4 and vegetable producers. So where, you know, who 

5 are going to be serving in an organic or a local 

6 market, you know.

7 So it's a little bit more cut and 

8 paste in terms of the cost. You know, a cool bot 

9 and a nicer packing facility and better walls to 

10 ensure a little bit longer life on the product is 

11 what those folks are looking for.

12 But certainly, when you're talking 

13 about grain storage facilities, you know, your 

14 point is definitely something that -- you know, 

15 at higher cost facilities. The folks we're 

16 working with would love to go those micro-loans 

17 with FS -- or farm storage facilities, less than 

18 $100,000.

19 MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay, thank you.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla next and then 

21 Jerry and then Carolyn. Did we have Kyla there? 

22 I just -- it's okay.
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1 MEMBER D'AMORE: There's no way I'm 

2 stepping in front of you, so.

3 MEMBER SMITH: Thanks, Roland.

4 MEMBER D'AMORE: Hi.

5 MEMBER SMITH: Hi. I wondered, you 

6 spoke to being a TSB and also producers fill out 

7 their OSPs. And so I wondered if you could share 

8 your thoughts on the idea of the common OSP and 

9 the benefits or lack thereof if you -- on the, 

10 like the benefit that would provide the producers 

11 for access for programs across the agency and 

12 burden reduction and things like that. So any 

13 thoughts?

14 MR. McREYNOLDS: Well, that's great. 

15 I certainly didn't -- we did provide any 

16 testimony on that subject in terms of written 

17 comments to the Board previously. So I would say 

18 that at our annual conferences in the past, we 

19 have put on pre-conference workshops that, you 

20 know, it's all-day intensive, how to fill out 

21 your application and your organic system plan.

22 And it's only moderately useful 
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1 because every certifier has a different form. So 

2 we can certainly see some utility in terms of a 

3 farmer's ability to pick amongst certifiers to 

4 sort of eliminate that as one of the obstacles.

5 But, you know, I think there's a lot 

6 more that we need to understand in terms of how 

7 it would -- or learn from farmers in terms of how 

8 that change would affect other aspects of their 

9 operations.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, if you 

11 would?

12 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thanks. Now I just 

13 have got to question that matches all that drama. 

14 I know North Carolina as a premier producer in 

15 terms of both volume and quality of blueberries.

16 MR. McREYNOLDS: Right.

17 MEMBER D'AMORE: And I'd say the same 

18 thing about sweet potatoes. What are your top 

19 crops that you deal with?

20 MR. McREYNOLDS: Well, I'll put it 

21 this way. About two-thirds of our farmer members 

22 are diversified vegetable operations. And so, 
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1 you know, and they are pursuing crop rotation and 

2 so that is -- the majority of our members are 

3 sort of operating in that space.

4 But certainly, you know, we have seen 

5 there is a large sort of contingent of sort of 

6 mid-scale operations in the Carolinas that, for 

7 whom organic sweet potatoes, organic wheats and 

8 organic tobacco are a very important sort of 

9 rotational series. So that has been very 

10 important to the growth of organic agriculture in 

11 the Carolinas, sure.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn, please go 

13 ahead.

14 MEMBER DIMITRI: Hi, Roland. You 

15 really --

16 MR. McREYNOLDS: Hi, Carolyn.

17 MEMBER DIMITRI: -- covered so many 

18 topics. But the one that grabbed my attention 

19 was the on-farm research activities. And so I'm 

20 interested in how do you develop those 

21 partnerships and how -- do you follow the 

22 standards for peer-reviewed research?
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1 And, I mean, I just think on-farm 

2 research activity is really, like an important 

3 way to feed into the OREI funding and these --

4 MR. McREYNOLDS: Right.

5 MEMBER DIMITRI: -- broader range 

6 projects that could have wide-scale implications 

7 for organic. So I wonder, some of my scientist 

8 friends say things like --

9 MR. McREYNOLDS: Right.

10 MEMBER DIMITRI: Yeah.

11 MR. McREYNOLDS: So that's a really 

12 interesting question. And I would say, I mean, 

13 first of all, we -- many of our land grant 

14 partners have some, you know, really excellent 

15 OREI programs. And there's some really excellent 

16 work going on in that regard at Clemson, at NC 

17 State, at NC A&T and South Carolina State as 

18 well.

19 Second, I would say that, for our 

20 work, you know, we don't compete. We're not able 

21 to compete for those sorts of grants. So it's 

22 specialty crop block grants, right, that are like 
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1 the main source for a lot of the things where 

2 we're doing variety trials.

3 And, you know, that's not a lot of 

4 money to do peer-reviewed research. And it's 

5 really more focused and our emphasis is on 

6 applied research, you know. 

7 And actually, I mean, I will tell you 

8 we did, one of the trials that we worked on that 

9 both involved doing some trials at our Lomax 

10 research farm and some on -- individual farms was 

11 tomato grafting, right, taking heirloom root 

12 stock and grafting it to, you know, hybrid roots 

13 -- heirloom tomatoes grafted to heirloom root 

14 stocks.

15 And, you know, the five-page report 

16 that we produced on that was the most read report 

17 by my Board of Directors of any report that we've 

18 ever published because that was the kind of 

19 practical information that they really love. So 

20 we're very much focused on supporting applied 

21 research.

22 MEMBER DIMITRI: And I just have a --
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1 so one interesting thing I've observed is, if you 

2 look at the results of the on-farm trials that 

3 are done at universities and then you look at 

4 what happens like from USDA data will tell us 

5 really happens on organic farms, there is this 

6 huge gap between like yields and cost of 

7 production and everything.

8 And so I do think on-farm research on 

9 real farms is a really important way to go. So 

10 do you so, like a way ahead to maybe make that 

11 more accessible to more farmers? MR. 

12 McREYNOLDS: I think incenting our university 

13 partners to do more of it -- there are 

14 disincentives to applied research for land grant 

15 researchers who are looking to, you know, advance 

16 along the ten-year track.

17 And so -- because it's a pain in the 

18 butt, right. You got seven different farms and 

19 you want them -- and they all have to make sure 

20 that they follow the protocol. So it's not --

21 you know, we have to make those incentives 

22 stronger for academics to pursue that, would be 
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1 our recommendation.

2 MEMBER DIMITRI: Thank you.

3 MR. McREYNOLDS: Sure. 

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

5 questions for Roland? Thank you. 

6 MR. McREYNOLDS: All right, thank you 

7 all very much.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Appreciate it. 

9 MR. WALL: Good morning. Just to 

10 clarify, I'm not talking about TOPP. Is that 

11 okay? Okay, cool. And I have 20 minutes. Is 

12 that correct? Okay, cool.

13 I'm Michael Wall. Good morning. I'm 

14 the Director of Farmer Advocacy at Georgia 

15 Organics. I'm not talking about TOPP. Just want 

16 to make sure you all are aware of that, although 

17 I could talk about TOPP. I love TOPP. Excuse me 

18 while I try to advance the slide.

19 DR. TUCKER: Guess that's a neat way 

20 of saying talk about TOPP.

21 MR. WALL: TOPP is great. There we 

22 go. Here's what I -- I'm talking about Ag in 
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1 Georgia. I want to tell you a little bit about 

2 Georgia Organics, a little bit about the history 

3 of Georgia and what the state organic Ag is in 

4 Georgia.

5 And just a heads-up, we will get into 

6 a little bit of uncomfortable territory here. 

7 We'll -- I'll feel it. You're probably feeling a 

8 little uncomfortable. That's okay. The 

9 uncomfortableness is also growth so embrace that.

10 Georgia Organics is a lot like CFSA. 

11 Farmer Roots started in the 70s and officially 

12 incorporated in 1997. There's roughly around 

13 1,200 farmers in our network. When we have an 

14 annual conference, which we did in February --

15 January -- earlier this year, we had about 500 

16 farmers show up, so that's kind of an idea of how 

17 big we are.

18 I have to disclose that I often copy 

19 and paste Roland's great ideas and Karen's great 

20 ideas for Georgia Organics. So I definitely 

21 appreciate what they've done. We're very similar 

22 organizations. 
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1 Just some of the highlights about what 

2 we do that focuses on farming, on farmers. We 

3 have an annual conference, like I said. We have 

4 an accelerated program which is a small cohort of 

5 farmers. They get about $10,000 for strategic 

6 on-farm investments, access to business coaches, 

7 soil coaches. 

8 We do field days. We have a Farmer 

9 Champion program. I hope when you're out and 

10 about in town you'll see our Farmer Champion 

11 sticker on the restaurants that you go to. We 

12 have a -- one of my favorite programs is the 

13 Kaiser-Permanente Bridge program. It provides 

14 two years' worth of free health insurance for 

15 eligible farmers.

16 And the Farmer Fund started out as a 

17 natural disaster relief program and has now 

18 expanded into emergency relief. So it can 

19 include anything from the pandemic to medical 

20 expenses. And during December we were hit by 

21 Winter Storm Elliott, and through the Farmer Fund 

22 we were able to distribute over $250,000 to 
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1 farmers who were hit very badly by that freak 

2 cold storm.

3 So, yeah, that's an overview of what 

4 we do. I'm not going to talk about Georgia 

5 Organics a lot, but it does relate to what we're 

6 talking about today. 

7 So let me tell you a little bit about 

8 me. I've been in Georgia Organics for 15 years. 

9 I was a journalist for ten years before that. 

10 Forgive me for that. And I'm a 7th generation 

11 Georgia family farmer. So what does a family 

12 mean? 

13 I would consider myself a learned man 

14 when it comes to agriculture, and my family 

15 doesn't care. They do not listen to me. That's 

16 what a family farmer means in my -- in fact, I've 

17 been talking to you all for three minutes and 15 

18 seconds and you all have graciously given me more 

19 attention than my family does, so thank you for 

20 that.

21 I've helped 30 farmers transition to 

22 organic agriculture. I've helped dozens of 
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1 farmers navigate NRCS and FSA. And I appreciate 

2 you looking at me and listening to me about my 

3 opinions on agriculture, so thank you.

4 So here's where we're going to get a 

5 little bit more into the uncomfortable part, 

6 certainly, for me. Seven generations, it sounds 

7 really neat but it also means -- I'm going to 

8 read this. Don't -- I don't want to read to you 

9 all a lot but I don't want to get this wrong.

10 My ancestors used a captive labor 

11 force of Africans and descendants of Africans on 

12 their farms. I just wanted to prove I can read, 

13 and I didn't want to get that wrong. That's 

14 something that I carry with me in this work and 

15 something I carry with me everywhere I do.

16 So now I'm going to give you some of 

17 the history of Georgia. Founded as a colony in 

18 1611 by Oglethorpe. From 1611 to 1751, slavery 

19 was banned in Georgia. It was the only colony 

20 that had it on paper, in the rules, that you 

21 could not have slaves in the colony of Georgia.

22 That stopped in 1751. I don't have 
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1 time to go over that, but it's a cool story. So 

2 slavery takes root in Georgia 1751. 1776, we 

3 have America. And then in 1793, the cotton gin 

4 was invented in Georgia. I don't know if you all

5 knew that but it was not far from Savannah. A 

6 lot of this stuff happened really close to the 

7 coast.

8 And the cotton gin, as you history 

9 buffs know, really accelerated, I guess, 

10 monoculture, King Cotton, and with that came the 

11 institution of slavery. 

12 So when you look at these numbers you 

13 can see that cotton was a bountiful crop for the 

14 early United States of America and the colonies. 

15 And that led to ever-increasing numbers of using 

16 forced slave labor on agricultural lands. So 

17 that's a big growth because of cotton.

18 And it wasn't just -- exploitation 

19 took on many forms here. So I think we need to 

20 acknowledge we're on land that used to be held by 

21 the Cherokee people. They were relocated out of 

22 the state in the Trail of Tears because of the 
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1 Treaty of New Echota in 1835. One second. I'm 

2 pushing the button.

3 The next slide will tell you that the 

4 Trail of Tears was because of cotton agriculture. 

5 So agriculture in Georgia started off exploitive 

6 and it's still, I would say, in many ways 

7 exploitive today. Thank you. Thanks, AV team. 

8 Appreciate it. I didn't do that. 

9 DR. TUCKER: It's needing it.

10 MR. WALL: Maybe, what do you want me 

11 to say about TOPP? I'll just say it and then we 

12 can -- thank you, Nate and thank you, Allison for 

13 having me. Allison, I hope you feel better.

14 So this is a slide of counties in 

15 Georgia and the southeast that show the density 

16 of slave population per capita from 1860, from 

17 the 1860 National Slave Survey.

18 Do you see that swooping line that 

19 goes down from Mississippi, across Alabama and 

20 then goes from -- that goes northeast from the 

21 middle of Georgia? That's a pattern that you'll 

22 see in other slides. And that's about geology, 
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1 plate tectonics.

2 I wish I had time to tell you about 

3 that. Maybe at the reception tomorrow night we 

4 can nerd out over it. But please pay attention 

5 to the brighter colors. The higher, the brighter 

6 the color, the higher the concentration of slaves 

7 in 1860, because that corresponds to StrikeForce 

8 counties.

9 How many people in this room know what 

10 a StrikeForce county is? The southern people 

11 know what a StrikeForce county is, and Ms. 

12 Tucker. I'm happy to see that. 

13 So a StrikeForce county is a USDA 

14 designation. And you can find it on the USDA's 

15 website to varying degrees of ease, depending on 

16 the administration and other programmatic 

17 changes. But a definition of a StrikeForce 

18 county, roughly, is 30 percent of the population 

19 lives below 30 percent of the federal poverty 

20 line -- and has for 30 years.

21 So this is entrenched poverty that 

22 doesn't budge. It doesn't care if there's a 
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1 republican in -- who's governor or president. 

2 This poverty doesn't care if there's a democrat 

3 who's a governor or a president. It's not 

4 moving.

5 And I can't point to it right now, but 

6 my family farmland is in StrikeForce counties. 

7 That's where I grew up, in StrikeForce counties. 

8 I didn't know they were StrikeForce counties at 

9 the time. 

10 But just imagine. I think, actually, 

11 I'll paraphrase Amber Bell, who used to work at 

12 the Southwest Georgia Project, Ms. Shirley 

13 Sherrod's group in Albany, Georgia.

14 She said, people think -- when you 

15 think about poverty in America, you'll think 

16 about the Mississippi Delta or you think about 

17 the Appalachian Mountains. And you don't think 

18 about south Georgia because of Atlanta. But the 

19 poverty in south Georgia -- and this is prime 

20 farmland -- this is all farmland -- is intense 

21 and not budging.

22 What does this have to do with organic 
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1 agriculture? I'm getting there. So I also 

2 wanted to point out that the water withdrawal 

3 permits for Ag irrigation is in that same zone. 

4 And I -- these two slides that you've seen and a 

5 couple more were put together by Donn Cooper. I 

6 totally stole them from him.

7 So you'll see the same swooshing. 

8 This is glyphosate use in 2015. You'll see that 

9 same swooshing pattern here in the dark areas of 

10 glyphosate use in that predominantly row crop 

11 part of Georgia where the StrikeForce counties 

12 are.

13 There they are again. You can see the 

14 shapes of the white area in the middle of the 

15 StrikeForce counties in the bottom left, 

16 southwest Georgia. That's around Albany. And 

17 there's some factories and industry there that 

18 aren't necessarily related to agriculture.

19 So I work on spreading the organic 

20 industry because of the organic hot spots 

21 philosophy, because of the research that found 

22 that it makes a difference when it comes to the 
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1 economics of a region that has enough organic 

2 agriculture within a certain county.

3 So if you could see, like what would a 

4 $2,000 median income household boost mean to a 

5 family in a StrikeForce county. I would mean a 

6 lot. It would change lives. Poverty rate's down 

7 1.35 percent in a StrikeForce would change lives. 

8 It would change the state of Georgia.

9 It's not enough to lift them 

10 completely out of poverty. But enough organic 

11 industry with -- stacked with, say, the 

12 recommendations of the USDA Equity Commission, 

13 that would also have a longer lasting impact.

14 Say it was stacked with reparations. 

15 True reparations for the state of Georgia would 

16 mean justice for those StrikeForce counties.

17 Let me tell you about the organic 

18 growth in Georgia. This is the organic industry 

19 between 2012 and 2020, a 121.4 percent increase. 

20 Our farms are pretty similar. Trying to advance 

21 here. 

22 The number of farms in the state of 
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1 Georgia grew at a very commensurate rate. It's 

2 125 percent growth in the number of certified 

3 organic operations in the state of Georgia, 

4 around the same timeframe. And TOPP is great.

5 DR. TUCKER: Those are farm sales.

6 MR. WALL: For the industry, yeah --

7 for the nation, not for Georgia.

8 DR. TUCKER: Oh, right.

9 MR. WALL: I know, yeah, that's Sed 

10 Rowe and his buddy on our organic peanut field. 

11 Sed Rowe's a celebrity. And that's Julia 

12 Asherman in that, in the masked photo, who was 

13 part of the panel yesterday.

14 So, yeah, similar growth between the 

15 organic industry and sales and a similar growth 

16 in the number of certified organic operations in 

17 the state of Georgia.

18 So we're hoping for some of those hot 

19 spots to happen in southwest Georgia, especially 

20 around peanut processing. 

21 So this is related but kind of 

22 tangential. Lauren mentioned this yesterday in 
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1 one of our groups. I don't know how or why but 

2 for some reason 51 percent of black farmers that 

3 are active in our network are land owners, which 

4 is very similar to white land owners that are 

5 active in our network.

6 That blew my mind. I don't know why 

7 that is, but that is a crazy statistic and we 

8 need to find out why that is and replicate it as 

9 much as possible.

10 So that's true about land ownership 

11 but when it comes to other things farm related, 

12 our black farmers are behind white farmers in 

13 terms of infrastructure, especially around cold 

14 storage and post-harvest handling.

15 This is Georgia Organics' official 

16 equity statement. Recognizing historic and 

17 current injustices, Georgia Organics prioritizes 

18 black services -- I'm sorry, prioritizes direct 

19 services and resources to black, indigenous and 

20 Latino/Latina farmers. That's the Georgia 

21 Organics statement.

22 Georgia Organics uses the term equity. 
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1 I would use -- my heart would tell me to use the 

2 word justice. But I completely understand why 

3 Georgia Organics uses the word equity. And I'm 

4 okay with it.

5 So we do have some efforts that are 

6 pointed towards equity. At least 50 percent of 

7 our accelerator farmers must be BIPOC. We have a 

8 Black Farmer Prosperity track at our conference 

9 that is managed and led by black farmers with 

10 Georgia Organics staff. 

11 And then 25 percent of the cost-share 

12 -- I didn't mention this, but in our organic 

13 transition program we provide the remaining 25 

14 percent cost-share to farmers their first year. 

15 For BIPOC farmers they're able to access that 

16 remaining 25 percent every year.

17 And on this slide I just want you to 

18 see, this is the Farmers' Services team. I used 

19 to be a part of the Farmers' Services team. Now 

20 I do farmer advocacy. But these are the folks 

21 that are working with our farmers on a daily, 

22 constant basis. And they'll be at the reception 
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1 Wednesday night. I hope you can meet them.

2 That's it. I'm early. I finished on 

3 time. Before I introduce Paul, are there any 

4 questions? Yes, sir?

5 MEMBER NANDWANI: Wonderful 

6 presentation, lot of good information. Quick 

7 question on cost-share. Are your slide one of 

8 the showed Go Organic and mention about 

9 cost-share. And just then about cost-share 25 

10 percent. 

11 So the question is, how much 

12 percentage of cost-share you offer to organic 

13 growers? I think the USDA Farm Services 

14 insulate. I'm giving example in Tennessee's 50 

15 percent because they reduced from 75 percent to 

16 50 percent.

17 And I think I learned yesterday 

18 something, that it can vary with the state to 

19 state. I'm not sure. What can you tell us about 

20 that?

21 MR. WALL: Yeah, it can vary a lot. 

22 In Georgia, it's 75 percent, up to $750, but you 
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1 have to apply twice. I understand that you don't 

2 have to apply twice in other states. 

3 So there are two application processes 

4 that our farmers have to go through. They have 

5 to do their paperwork two different times. One's 

6 for $500 and the other one's for $250. But you 

7 can access $750 if you do it twice.

8 MEMBER NANDWANI: And the 25 percent 

9 you mentioned in the last, that is only for the 

10 first year.

11 MR. WALL: That comes from Georgia 

12 Organics. That's not an FSA program or USDA 

13 program. That comes from Georgia Organics' 

14 private fundraising. 

15 And that is for the first year for 

16 non-BIPOC farmers so they can see, you know, how 

17 the barrier reduced, not all the way down to 

18 nothing. But the financial barrier is reduced 

19 very much. 

20 And then if they see the value, 

21 hopefully, they'll stay in the program and remain 

22 certified. For BIPOC farmers, they get that 
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1 reimbursement at 25 percent every year.

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

3 MR. WALL: Yes, sir. 

4 MEMBER QUARCOO: Now if you have to 

5 mention one thing that we need to look at in 

6 order to provide more resources and increase 

7 participation for BIPOC farmers, what would it 

8 be?

9 MR. WALL: Thank you. Thank you for 

10 that question. I would recommend reading the 

11 Equity Commission's recommendations. Have you 

12 all done -- have you all talked about those yet?

13 MEMBER QUARCOO: Mm-hmm. 

14 MR. WALL: I think I was -- just last 

15 Thursday I was down in Albany with Ms. Sherrod at 

16 the Southwest Georgia Project. And Dr. Dewayne 

17 Goldmon, the Assistant Secretary for Racial 

18 Equity at the USDA was there telling us how 

19 they're going to implement those racial equity 

20 recommendations.

21 The implementations -- the way they're 

22 going to implement it, using the four regional 
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1 hub models, it's very USDA and very questionable. 

2 But, you know, it's better than nothing. But 

3 the recommendations themselves are -- there's 

4 value there.

5 I was hopeful when I read the 

6 recommendations themselves. So I think -- I hope 

7 the USDA, all employees, every program is really 

8 leaning into those recommendations and thinking 

9 hard about how to get that, get those 

10 recommendations implemented sooner rather than 

11 later and, you know, as thoroughly and as broadly 

12 as they can.

13 DR. TUCKER: Could you highlight a 

14 couple of them?

15 MR. WALL: The training for the staff, 

16 especially the FSA staff, was a great idea. 

17 There was -- might be getting it confused with 

18 something I read that Nock recommended yesterday. 

19

20 But I do believe racial equity 

21 training for all USDA staff is a great idea, 

22 especially the ones that are on the local level, 
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1 the ones that are behind the doors when you open 

2 the FSA office or the NRCS office at a county 

3 level.

4 You can have, you know, a top-down or 

5 a really great leader that's really committed to 

6 anti-racism in DC and even at the state level. 

7 But if it doesn't filter down to the county 

8 levels, it doesn't do anything.

9 You know, some -- I've heard some 

10 people say it's a new day at USDA. But behind 

11 those doors, on the county level, are the same 

12 faces. 

13 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks for this 

14 presentation, Michael. Can you talk a little bit 

15 about the appetite for doing organic research at 

16 Georgia's main grant universities, if there is 

17 any? I just heard about weed control and 

18 peanuts. It'd be great if one of the land grant 

19 universities took that on.

20 MR. WALL: Yeah, we definitely need it 

21 in cotton. So amongst the organic researchers 

22 that I know, that I work with, they are very, 
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1 very, very passionate. But I feel like -- I 

2 think we -- so, I mean, conventional agriculture 

3 dominates Georgia physically and politically.

4 And I think that is true in the land 

5 grants. I think that is true when it comes to 

6 extension. That's the way it is. And we're all 

7 trying to build a patchwork of support services 

8 to make up for that for organic growers.

9 We want to be organic extension. We 

10 have some cohorts, you know, some partners in 

11 crime within the land grants that are working on 

12 organic research and doing it passionately. But 

13 they're on shoestring budgets and they aren't 

14 necessarily embraced and supported by the full 

15 university. 

16 I hope I can say that. I don't --

17 those are my observations. I don't want to put 

18 words in their mouths, but they're super 

19 passionate and they nerd out about the right 

20 things, like the right kind plans, the right kind 

21 of rotations. 

22 But, yeah, I wouldn't say that they're 
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1 embraced and supported and highlighted by the 

2 conventional structure there.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

4 questions for Michael?

5 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you.

6 MR. WALL: Thanks.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have a quick 

8 question for you, Michael. When you look at 

9 those, the farm numbers that you presented, how 

10 it grew from 72 to, I think it was 162 farms, as 

11 we look to TOPP and the goal of getting more 

12 organic acres into certification or more acres 

13 into certification, do you feel like the current 

14 organic farms are thriving or that we're missing 

15 some key infrastructure? 

16 And if so, what would that 

17 infrastructure be? And how do we build a 

18 resilient marketplace to both bring in new folks 

19 but also support the folks who have already 

20 transitioned?

21 MR. WALL: Thank you, Nate. No, I 

22 don't think they're thriving financially. I 
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1 think they're thriving in other ways. But I 

2 don't think there's a thriving farm.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Good point.

4 MR. WALL: I don't think -- I mean, I 

5 would call the reality of farming right now a 

6 crisis. You know, profits aren't there. The 

7 stability is not there. I mean, forget 

8 prosperity and thriving. Just stability would be 

9 nice, and that's a rarity.

10 But the truth is, it depends. So --

11 and it -- the closer you are to Atlanta, if 

12 you're an organic farmer, the better. The 

13 organic marketplace is -- and Athens marketplace, 

14 that corridor is good for farmers. There 

15 are restaurant sales. There are Atlantans and 

16 Athenians who have disposable income and can 

17 afford organic prices. But the further you get 

18 away from Atlanta, the tougher it is. 

19 The further you have to travel, the 

20 fewer the -- I mean, if you look at the 

21 StrikeForce counties, those people are not buying 

22 or even thinking about organics in the Harveys or 
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1 the Piggly Wigglys.

2 So -- and then what infrastructure we 

3 need, so when it comes to talking to farmers 

4 about transitioning to organic, they're not going 

5 to do it if they don't feel financially stable, 

6 if they're able to take a risk and try something 

7 new.

8 But I think that's also true from the 

9 consumer's perspective. If they aren't 

10 financially stable, they're not going to try this 

11 new thing. So economic development would grow 

12 both consumer desire for organics and the ability 

13 for a farmer to think about organic 

14 transitioning.

15 I've spent a lot of time going to 

16 StrikeForce counties and trying to recruit folks 

17 to transition to certified organic. And there 

18 are folks who -- they do it for a couple of 

19 reasons. I have heard, I want to be organic so 

20 that I can finally make money.

21 I've heard, I want to do this so that 

22 I can take a stand and let my neighbors and the 
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1 USDA know how I'm farming. I'm paraphrasing. 

2 That's like 15 different farmers saying something 

3 similar and putting those words together.

4 And then other people are doing it 

5 because they see their neighbor doing it. And 

6 they talk to their neighbor about it. Or they 

7 see a farmer that they respected for a long time 

8 do it and then they start thinking about it. 

9 That has happened in peanuts in the past.

10 And what they need, I think they need 

11 more markets like the Atlanta market. They need 

12 consumers with disposable income who are willing 

13 and able to afford organic produce. And it'd be 

14 great if they had access to a local market, a 

15 farmers market. 

16 There's a lot of farmers markets 

17 around here. But when you get outside of Atlanta 

18 and Athens, the numbers go down a lot. There's 

19 some. They're just not as plentiful and the 

20 prices aren't as bountiful. 

21 But the growing is just as good. The 

22 soil's different. The pressures are different. 
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1 But we can grow year-round in this state, in 

2 almost every county, although it's getting hotter 

3 and wetter and stranger by the day.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have a follow-up 

5 question from --

6 MEMBER HUSEMAN: I --

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: --Allison. Oh, 

8 I'm sorry, Kim. Go ahead. 

9 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Oh, okay. Is that 

10 okay? 

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah, totally.

12 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. Hi, Michael. 

13 MR. WALL: Hi.

14 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Can you speak to the 

15 Farm-to-School program that was on one of your 

16 first slides?

17 MR. WALL: A little bit. I wish I 

18 could tell you everything about it. Right now, 

19 the Farm-to-School program has shifted over to 

20 Farm-to-Early Care Centers. And they're doing 

21 some pilots called the Family Farm Share in Ware 

22 County, Waycross, Georgia, where I was born.
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1 So that is working with local growers 

2 and helping them with production, helping them 

3 scale up, helping them with their post-harvest 

4 handling and their food safety. And then 

5 aggregating those -- that produce and providing 

6 it for a very, very discounted price to families 

7 at the Farm-to-Early Care Centers, which is

8 daycare. Those are daycare centers. That's the 

9 thrust of it now.

10 But we also have lots of campaigns 

11 that encourage Farm-to-School across the state. 

12 October is Farm-to-School month and we pick out a 

13 theme for kids to get really excited about. Some 

14 of them have been, like Leave it to Spinach, Kick 

15 it Kale, things like that, things that are to get 

16 kids excited about.

17 Taste-testing in the cafeterias, the 

18 school garden's kind of like the carrot to get 

19 the kids and the new school nutrition directors 

20 and the teachers excited about it. I can't 

21 remember what the theme this year is. It was 

22 super cute and I wish I could remember what it 
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1 was because it was adorable. Oh, it was --

2 LAUREN: Pepperpalooza.

3 MR. WALL: Thank you. Yeah, I was 

4 about to get -- Pepperpalooza. Thanks, Lauren. 

5 Thank you. 

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: As we visited a 

7 couple of farms yesterday, I think Georgia 

8 Organics members, Love is Love and Grateful 

9 Pastures, a theme seemed to arise that there was 

10 a lot of incubation from one member to the next 

11 making kind of spawning more and more organic 

12 farms that exist in this network where they're 

13 supporting each other, buying and selling to each 

14 other, forming new businesses together.

15 Do you have any thoughts on how -- or 

16 if you already do -- how we can track that 

17 effect, that networking effect that Georgia 

18 Organics has had on the local food economy and 

19 organic ecosystem as farms break off and 

20 organically expand? 

21 MR. WALL: That's a good question. 

22 It's tough.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It's Allison so 

2 I'll credit it to her.

3 MR. WALL: Makes sense, yeah. She's a 

4 smart one. That is -- you're talking about --

5 and we struggle with this. We struggle with this 

6 constantly, like impact tracking?

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mm-hmm. 

8 MR. WALL: I believe, like the 

9 networking that we have at our conference is the 

10 most -- one of the most valuable things that we 

11 offer. The social resilience of that network, 

12 the Farmer-to-Farmer network, that is so 

13 important and I have no idea how to track that. 

14 I have no idea.

15 I need a sociologist and Ag economists 

16 that can help us with that. So if you have any, 

17 send them my way. Make sure they work for free. 

18 It'll take five years.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please?

20 DR. TUCKER: This is Jenny. I want to 

21 thank you for saying that because you have the 

22 program level, well, how are you going to track 
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1 the impact of TOPP? And we're really encouraging 

2 -- we're working on, okay, what are the numbers, 

3 right, the metrics that we need to do.

4 But we're also really encouraging all 

5 the partners to feed us stories, the real life 

6 stories of those impacts. And I think your 

7 region's already fed up some -- it is captured in 

8 pictures. It is captured in those --

9 MR. WALL: Yes.

10 DR. TUCKER: -- more qualitative for, 

11 you know, those of us who love sociology, that 

12 balance between quant and qual of telling the 

13 story and having the numbers. 

14 And I think that's a real challenge 

15 with TOPP, so appreciate that you said it's hard, 

16 because it is hard. And I think saying it's hard 

17 gives us an opening to start working on the 

18 problem better, so thank you.

19 MR. WALL: You're welcome and, you 

20 know, it would show up in some of the numbers, 

21 like this farmer in Augusta inspired three or 

22 four other farms to become certified organic. 
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1 You'll see those, you'll see the number of farms 

2 and you'll see the acreage come into that. 

3 But besides just the acreage increase, 

4 there is a safety buffer, a risk management 

5 because of those relationships. And it happens 

6 all over the state, yeah.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

8 questions? All right, Michael, we really 

9 appreciate your presentation.

10 MR. WALL: Thanks for having me, 

11 appreciate it. About Paul, first time -- I mean, 

12 Billy's already talked to him. But let me tell 

13 you the first thing I thought when I met Paul, 

14 which was at a food safety training that Billy 

15 and I were doing together.

16 The first time I saw Paul, I thought, 

17 what is Jason Momoa doing in this food safety 

18 training? And I thought, don't make him mad. 

19 He's so big. But he is the sweetest, nicest guy. 

20 And Billy already told you a lot about him so --

21 and Paul's going to tell you a lot about his 

22 great farm.
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1 MR. SORAH: It's a pleasure to be here 

2 with everybody today. Thanks for all the work 

3 that everyone's doing and hearing out some 

4 problems and helping us try to find some 

5 solutions here. See if this will cooperate. 

6 There we go.

7 All right, we got -- my name is Paul 

8 Sorah. My wife and I, along with our best friend 

9 and business partner, Mark Golden, started Hearts 

10 of Harvest Farm in 2018. We are in Arnoldsville, 

11 Georgia. It's about 15 minutes east of downtown 

12 Athens. We're in Oglethorpe County.

13 We are entering our sixth season. We 

14 have a acre and a half at our home. And then we 

15 purchased 108 acres and deer-fenced in the first 

16 30 acres of that that we're expanding on now. 

17 We are a diversified fruit, vegetable, 

18 flower operation. We grow any vegetable that'll 

19 grow in season. We grow lots of flowers. And in 

20 the fruit world, right now we grow a lot of 

21 strawberries but we are putting in like what I 

22 would call a micro-orchard on our new property, 
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1 focusing on growing organic fruits for kind of a 

2 small market.

3 Right now, we're at two weekly farmers 

4 markets on Saturdays. We're at the Athens 

5 Farmers Market and then we do the Peachtree Road 

6 Farmers Market here in Atlanta and Buckhead.

7 And we work with Fresh Harvest, which 

8 is a subscription box service. They're providing 

9 about 3,000 boxes delivered to people's doors a 

10 week. And we're one of the farms that sells to 

11 them. 

12 And we have between 7 and 10 

13 restaurants that we're working with and 

14 delivering to on a weekly basis. 

15 You know, when we started our farm, 

16 the joke I tell is, like all I'd ever done was 

17 kill houseplants. I was a -- I got my degree in 

18 music and was a touring musician for ten years, 

19 living all over the world in buses and vans and 

20 planes and things of that nature.

21 And after about 10 years of that, my 

22 wife and I were living here in Atlanta and we 
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1 decided that it was time to change the pace and 

2 slow down. So we moved out to Arnoldsville and 

3 we were going to build a studio.

4 And then we were playing a music 

5 festival at a guy named Jeff Poppen's farm and 

6 The Barefoot Farmer. He's a fantastic guy. And 

7 he gave me one of his books on organic and 

8 biodynamic agriculture production.

9 And I started reading it and it just 

10 began blowing my mind. It was like, opened up a 

11 whole new world to me. And then I did the 

12 typical U-2 wormhole and the Curtis Stone, the 

13 Jean-Martin, the Conor Crickmore. Well, I can 

14 make $100,000 on a half an acre. 

15 And the thing that those books don't 

16 tell you is, Georgia's a lot different. The 

17 weeds, the pests, the disease, the rain, the 

18 waves, it's a whole experience. We literally 

19 dumped our life savings into starting a farm and 

20 we kind of haven't stopped since.

21 As I mentioned, our business partner, 

22 Mark, he toured with me. And I called him one 
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1 day and I was like, hey, why don't you move from 

2 Nashville down to Arnoldsville and start a farm 

3 with me?

4 He came down a week later and then the 

5 week after that, he called back and he said, all 

6 right, my wife signed off on it. We're coming. 

7 And they lived in their -- with their 

8 six-month-old baby in our house with my wife and 

9 I and our three children for six months while 

10 they were trying to get a house. 

11 But we've been just really, really 

12 getting after it ever since. You know, the 

13 diversity of our production, I realized very 

14 early that that was going to be critical for us 

15 to have any shot at financial success because, as 

16 you're all aware, the ebbs and flows of vegetable 

17 production is -- it's quite volatile, to say the 

18 least.

19 And for us, having flowers has been 

20 one of the, like most crucial parts of our 

21 business. It earns the best on a per square foot 

22 basis. And the overhead of labor versus revenue 
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1 return is a much better margin than the vegetable 

2 production side of things.

3 So as we grew, our first year, you 

4 know, we were doing about a half-acre. My wife 

5 was pregnant, had our son in July and it was a 

6 heck of a time. So I was really -- you see how 

7 happy we were at the beginning. And then the 

8 realities begin setting in.

9 But no, it's -- you know, we started a 

10 half-acre, went to two, convinced my 

11 father-in-law to buy a house a mile from our 

12 house with eight acres on it. So we started 

13 farming that. And then now we'll be 25 to 30 

14 acres this year.

15 You know, and with that became kind of 

16 the -- well, here's a few, the first truckload of 

17 vermiculite and first high tunnel. I had a -- we 

18 ordered a greenhouse and it showed up in my 

19 driveway on a semi-truck. And the guy dropped it 

20 off and said, I'll be back in a week. Good luck.

21 And I had never built anything in my 

22 life so we started building a high tunnel in 
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1 shin-deep mud in February. And that was its own 

2 experience as well. Some pictures of our 

3 displays and whatnot at markets, some nice sweet 

4 potatoes, my wife's beautiful work with flowers.

5 Flowers have really expanded for us. 

6 We started with just maybe a handful of beds but 

7 now we've got over 2 acres in flowers in 

8 production and we're doing wedding design and 

9 markets and special events which has been a 

10 really, really nice development.

11 Yeah, but kind of getting into the 

12 upscaling piece of it is the labor which becomes 

13 a big challenge because, you know, with the way 

14 that I look at managing my farm is these people 

15 are in my circle, you know, and my circle's 

16 tight.

17 But when you're in, you're in. And 

18 I'm very loyal and I take care of my people. We 

19 pay well. We take care of them or if they are, 

20 you know, sick and they need, we do whatever we 

21 can to help them. But, you know, the cost of 

22 labor and organic systems is a reality.
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1 And, you know, yeah, there are 

2 machines that we're trying to invest in but those 

3 can come at $30,000 and $40,000 a pop. And 

4 that's kind of a big barrier that I feel like 

5 that we've found, is in this hybrid space, we 

6 were just straight farmers markets but now we're 

7 expanding into a wholesale/retail hybrid.

8 And the processes and systems that you 

9 need just for like a market production are 

10 totally different than growing, you know, acres 

11 and acres of wholesale. 

12 So where we've tried to get to is 

13 shrinking our full-time staff down and keeping 

14 them on a very sustainable wage with a path for 

15 financial growth moving forward while now trying 

16 to be more strategic in our investments and to 

17 infrastructure and tractor-based harvesting and 

18 planting equipment that can help us eliminate 

19 more of the kind of seasonal labor hours.

20 And on the bottom left is a picture 

21 of us with one of our employees. She's been with 

22 us for -- this is her fourth season now but she 
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1 was diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer at 31

2 years old.

3 And within six weeks we put together a 

4 huge concert at our farm and had the Drive-By 

5 Truckers come out and play and a bunch of other 

6 folks and ended up raising like $15,000 for her 

7 and her treatment in about a six-week period. So 

8 that was cool.

9 Yeah, so I don't know. And I think 

10 just echoing, too, I kind of had a plan but 

11 didn't know this was going to be what I was 

12 coming too. But I feel like this theme of 

13 networking and community is a pretty powerful 

14 thing and in our area, especially, because like, 

15 when I started, I knew nothing.

16 I was just reading books and watching 

17 YouTube videos. But there's like five or six 

18 really solid farms in our Athens area, and 

19 they're really good people. And I've learned a 

20 ton from them. We're always kind of sharing 

21 information and throwing in on bulk orders and 

22 trying to keep our costs down and, you know, 
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1 helping each other when we can.

2 And then that extension too, to like a 

3 group like Georgia Organics, who've been so 

4 helpful for us, well, you know, we lost over

5 $100,000 in two nights, basically, in the storm 

6 in December. 

7 And, you know, when they stepped up to 

8 provide assistance, it was like, they're the only 

9 people that did anything for us. And that was a 

10 pretty dark time.

11 And then, you know, the accelerator 

12 program, we were a part of that, which we 

13 transitioned into growing some mushrooms as well. 

14 We have a indoor mushroom production and that's 

15 something that's really nice that we can produce 

16 year-round, 365, climate controlled. The 

17 same with our indoor micro-greens production, 

18 indoor, under lights year-round, 365, just trying 

19 to build in some layers of revenue that can be 

20 resilient against the ebb and flow of what our 

21 business really is. 

22 Strawberries. We do have a bunch of 
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1 blueberries we planted too. We're waiting on 

2 them to come along. Yeah, we planted about 

3 10,000 strawberries this year. So finally 

4 they're starting to come along. 

5 And then, you know, the planning for 

6 the future through the accelerator program with 

7 Georgia Organics, we got to work with Ellen 

8 Polishuk who's just incredible. She's such a 

9 great mentor to us. She's really helped us in 

10 this transition to a retail/wholesale model.

11 You know, the reality though, the 

12 investments of taking a brand-new piece of land 

13 with zero infrastructure and bringing it into a 

14 farm, you know, it gets pretty intense. 

15 And we did work with the USDA and FSA 

16 on our real estate loan and our infrastructure 

17 loan. But, you know, those things can be 

18 challenging too with the amount of time that it 

19 takes to have those things go through.

20 But nonetheless, we are grateful. We 

21 got our deer fence up, a really good well. And 

22 our wash/pack is being built now so that's kind 
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1 of where we're at. And, well, back, I guess. 

2

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, thank you.

4 MR. SORAH: Yeah, yeah. Thank you 

5 all. Thank you. Yeah, if anybody's got --

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, Logan, 

7 your question.

8 MEMBER PETREY: Hi. Thank you, Paul. 

9 That was --

10 MR. SORAH: Yeah.

11 MEMBER PETREY: It was great. Got a 

12 question. Do you use plastic mulch?

13 MR. SORAH: I do.

14 MEMBER PETREY: Okay, so that's a 

15 material for sunset. And there's a lot of debate 

16 about that and the importance of it. And could 

17 you state what kind of an impact it would have on 

18 you if we did not have plastic mulch as a 

19 material?

20 MR. SORAH: Well, I know, you know, 

21 there's just certain crops that -- I don't know 

22 how you'd do it. 
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1 MEMBER PETREY: Which crops?

2 MR. SORAH: I would say anything 

3 that's going north and south, right, like if 

4 you're talking about twining or stringing or 

5 fence method tomatoes, you know, you could get in 

6 there with a tractor-based cultivation system for 

7 maybe two or three weeks.

8 But once those plants hit this, you 

9 know, they're hitting the tractor and then --

10 MEMBER PETREY: Yeah.

11 MR. SORAH: -- you're talking about 

12 either having to set up your spacing, you know, 

13 eight feet apart to where you could get a tractor 

14 between the rows. And then you're giving up an 

15 entire bed of production or paying people to 

16 physically go in and scuffle hoe. And that's 

17 just like the worst use of funds ever, is manual 

18 weeding.

19 You know, we've invested into a, like 

20 a old belly-mount cultivating tractor. And this 

21 year we're experimenting with some stuff on a 

22 tractor-based cultivation system. But, yeah, I 
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1 mean, like tomatoes, eggplants, peppers, you 

2 know, it'd be tough.

3 MEMBER PETREY: Yeah, and I've never 

4 even considered the -- or thought about the 

5 clearance on the tractors that you don't have and 

6 the cultivators to reach that, so that is a great 

7 point.

8 Another question, how do you clean 

9 your carrots? They are so clean. I'm a carrot 

10 farmer and I can't -- I mean, that takes --

11 MR. SORAH: I just -- I've got a --

12 MEMBER PETREY: It takes some work. 

13 That's hard. I'm just going to tell you. I 

14 mean, I -- you have to scrub them for pictures 

15 for sales and all that, so I'm impressed.

16 MR. SORAH: Yeah, we just -- we got 

17 one of those high pressure nozzles and just --

18 MEMBER PETREY: Man, that's --

19 MR. SORAH: -- blast them off.

20 MEMBER PETREY: It's good though.

21 MR. SORAH: I'm pretty anal about my 

22 roots being super clean.
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1 MEMBER PETREY: Yeah, I can tell. 

2 It's a lot of work.

3 MR. SORAH: I mean, that's why -- and 

4 when you got those things stacked up at market, 

5 like that's -- as long as you got the stacker 

6 coming in all day.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin, go 

8 ahead.

9 MEMBER QUARCOO: I don't know whether 

10 I heard you correctly, but did you say that some 

11 of the existing farmers added you to their bulk 

12 purchases when we're buying something? Because 

13 for a smaller, limited resource farmers, a number 

14 of times they are so small, if they have to buy 

15 their materials in small quantities, that makes 

16 the cost of production even higher for them.

17 So are they, apart from existing 

18 farmers, this kind of network, adding you to the 

19 bulk purchases. Are there other things that you 

20 think would help small, limited resource farmers 

21 to have an easier time getting into organic?

22 MR. SORAH: Yeah, I think just 
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1 organizing any kind of community-based 

2 cooperative seems to be very effective. You 

3 know, we just did an order with Georgia Organics 

4 where we all threw -- in a bunch of farms bought 

5 these slings of potting soil and seedling mix.

6 And we were able to get the cost down 

7 like 40 percent, I think, on the bags. And then 

8 it cut the shipping in half. And Georgia 

9 Organics facilitated the order, had it dropped 

10 off at a location, had a forklift there and 

11 loaded up everyone's trucks or trailers as they 

12 came.

13 And, you know, that's a -- I think we 

14 ended up paying like $250 for a yard. And if I 

15 would have just bought the yard myself and had it 

16 shipped it was going to be like $380. So, you 

17 know, 130 bucks is, if you're going to go through 

18 five or six yards a year, that adds up.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Could you, Paul, 

20 speak a little bit more to this idea of building 

21 cooperatives and building, buying and selling 

22 power? 
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1 It seems like this was, again, a 

2 through-line, Love is Love. That's a formal 

3 cooperative. Have you explored becoming a formal 

4 cooperative? Or what resource did you feel like 

5 you need to further that evolution of building a 

6 stronger more resilient network?

7 MR. SORAH: That's a good question. 

8 You know, I think with all of us, there's like a 

9 few of us in the area that are going into this 

10 place of beyond like 5 to 7 acres, that are going 

11 into this place of 25, 30, 40 acres of 

12 production.

13 And the reality of that is the note on 

14 the land. You know, like if you have to generate 

15 a ton of revenue to do that. But I think it's 

16 difficult, like for us evolving into this place 

17 not really knowing how to access those aggregates 

18 or how to access a distributor who could get our 

19 food out further into different areas.

20 And then, you know, when we're -- for 

21 us, like 25 and 30 acres feels huge right now. 

22 But in the grand scheme of like farming in 
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1 America, like we're just a garden to people 

2 still. You know what I mean?

3 Like, so to be able to provide organic 

4 food from actual, like real local farmers in the 

5 community, I think it's, like we have to almost 

6 look at each other's farm as part of the greater 

7 farm and trying to find a way where we could pull 

8 five or six farms together as a cooperative and 

9 then have like an aggregate help us organize crop 

10 planting to where we could be a larger 

11 distribution model.

12 But, you know, if someone needs 5,000 

13 lettuce heads, well, that's -- if four people 

14 could contribute 1,250, you know, that's a little 

15 more economical. But when I think you start 

16 getting into some of these numbers, it forces you 

17 into a more like narrow production model because 

18 you need to invest in specific equipment that 

19 plants and harvests this specific thing as 

20 efficiently as possible for it to be profitable 

21 at a wholesale margin.

22 So I think developing a cooperative in 
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1 that way, which I know there's something like 

2 that in North Carolina with New Sprout because we 

3 buy all of our potato seeds from them. But the 

4 other side of their business is like a 

5 cooperative of multiple large organic farms. And 

6 they're distributing to grocery stores all up and 

7 down the East Coast.

8 But we don't have that thing here in 

9 Georgia.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, Logan.

11 MEMBER PETREY: A question on the 

12 cooperative, like when you're saying -- so right 

13 now you're very diverse. And if you were to join 

14 with other farms, one thing that I think you do 

15 have to stay is diversified for your own sake. 

16 But you're right. You do have to 

17 simplify if you're going to scale up, you know, 

18 for the equipment. Do you think that that could 

19 be a problem or something that we just need to be 

20 aware of, that we don't need you to just become a 

21 lettuce farmer?

22 Because you still need the rotation, 
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1 the crop rotation. Because I feel like if you 

2 start joining then everybody would be like, well, 

3 you're really good at doing radishes so we're 

4 just going to let you do all the radishes.

5 Yet, you really need that diversity 

6 within your own farm for you to be -- I feel like 

7 that when you start segregating that, that can 

8 potentially be a problem.

9 MR. SORAH: Absolutely, and that's one 

10 of the challenges I feel like we're facing right 

11 now, entering into this hybrid model. Of, like 

12 we're going to do our farmers markets, right, 

13 because the Buckhead Market at Peachtree Road is, 

14 I mean, incredible.

15 We -- that's a fantastic market for 

16 us. And we need that diversity. We need that 

17 not only for sales but just diversity for the 

18 health of the farm and the health of the soil. 

19 But then kind of like looking at my farm as, 

20 okay, this seven acres, I'm thinking of as like 

21 my high-rotations diversified market/restaurant 

22 production.
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1 And then maybe I'll have this 10 acres 

2 in one-acre blocks on high rotation and cover 

3 cropping which would be like so essential to what 

4 we're doing as the cover cropping piece, like to 

5 where we could still remain diversified and 

6 collaborate where it's not like I'm just growing 

7 radishes.

8 It could be like, all right, I'll take 

9 radishes April, Week 1 and you take radishes 

10 April, Week 2 that --

11 MEMBER PETREY: Maybe you could share 

12 equipment too.

13 MR. SORAH: Yeah, it's -- and then, 

14 you know, the infrastructure that comes into 

15 place when you're trying to produce on like a 

16 large scale like that, growing your farm, you 

17 know, is the packing, you know, being able to 

18 wash and pack efficiently that much produce. 

19 And then if it's not just being field 

20 packed or picked up the day of harvest, you know, 

21 it's storing that and having the proper cold 

22 storage for food safety and shelve life and 
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1 quality of product. I think those are kind of 

2 big barriers there.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin, go 

4 ahead.

5 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes, I am 

6 particularly interested in what you have to say 

7 about cooperatives. The problem with a number of 

8 cooperatives is that they are, from what I have 

9 observed, they are not able to stay together for 

10 long. 

11 People form cooperatives to take 

12 advantage of some of these benefits you've talked 

13 about. But they just fall apart. Most of the

14 time the technical assistance we give them, we 

15 tell them how to manage best how to do this.

16 But we sort of ignore group dynamics 

17 training. How do you stay together as a group, 

18 conflict resolution. I mean, contracts that 

19 ensure that things are done properly.

20 So I think that with all these 

21 cooperatives and things that we want to do to 

22 help small farmers, I think that there is more 
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1 need in terms of technical support and training 

2 to make sure they stay together. 

3 Do you see that? Have you come across 

4 cooperatives that, they come together for the 

5 right reasons but they are unable to stay 

6 together?

7 MR. SORAH: Yeah, I do and it may just 

8 be a shift in what we think of as a cooperative 

9 or how we're defining it or identifying it, you 

10 know. Because, for instance, with Fresh Harvest, 

11 which is a company we work with, they do home 

12 delivery of subscription boxes, over 3,000 boxes 

13 across Atlanta. They deliver every week, right.

14 And there's like ten of us farms that 

15 grow with them and sell to them. And we crop 

16 plan and they pay fair prices and they take the 

17 product. They handle all of the boxing, 

18 packaging and delivering, right.

19 So it's not like it's official but it 

20 is, like we are all working together to supply 

21 this company and the Atlanta community with food. 

22 And so I think like maybe that hub piece is kind 
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1 of what's important because, like there are 

2 growers in my community where we're not going 

3 anyway. 

4 You know, we're entrenched into this 

5 business and we're growing. We're growing on 

6 scale. And I think if the hub piece is there and 

7 the ability to distribute more and more product, 

8 I don't think a farm -- the farms in my community 

9 wouldn't turn down or get out of that situation 

10 because that's what we're all looking to do, is 

11 expand and sell more and be able to move more 

12 product.

13 And, you know, the group dynamics of 

14 it, I think that's always going to be a thing. 

15 And maybe there needs to be more technical 

16 assistance and research done in how to make that 

17 effective. 

18 But for us to be able, I think, see 

19 the financial future that farms like us need to 

20 not only just pay the mortgage and hope and pray 

21 to make a dollar but to actually thrive 

22 financially is going to be this access to 
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1 distribution that's not just all tied to large 

2 farms on the West Coast.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

4 for Paul? I just have a quick question for you, 

5 Paul. What is the value that being certified 

6 organic brings to your farm? How would you 

7 describe why organic?

8 MR. SORAH: Well, we're actually 

9 putting our new property in certified. We --

10 I've been operating under the NOP OMRI organic 

11 standards since the very beginning.

12 But honestly, when we were starting 

13 our farm and really up until this year, it's just 

14 been a little overwhelming for us on a data 

15 paperwork piece of it where it, you know, we have 

16 -- it's just that piece has just been very 

17 intimidating for us. 

18 And when you already feel like you're 

19 burning at both ends and working 60 hour weeks 

20 and then you want to like, you know, like -- you 

21 got to come in and input data, you know.

22 So we've been certified naturally 
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1 grown but are now working transition in the new 

2 property and organics with the state of mind for 

3 that wholesale distribution and the reality of 

4 that price point difference of having the 

5 certification and the label and what that means 

6 in the wholesale marketplace compared to -- even 

7 if you operate organically but you don't have a 

8 label, you're just still going to be getting 

9 conventionally price points. 

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

11 MR. SORAH: Yeah.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

13 questions for Paul? I want to hand it over to 

14 Jenny real quick.

15 DR. TUCKER: I just want -- I want to 

16 thank the entire Welcoming Panel for being here. 

17 The TOPP investments are designed to really 

18 harness the power of partnerships that are 

19 already there and that have already been working.

20 And I think that -- this really 

21 illustrates why the program was able to stand up 

22 quickly, is you already had those relationships 
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1 started and so to come here and share the 

2 richness of your experience today, I invite all 

3 of us around the table and folks at home. 

4 These are the folks were serve. So 

5 let's give them a big round of applause. 

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much, 

7 Paul.

8 MR. SORAH: Sure.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Really appreciate 

10 your time.

11 MR. SORAH: Absolutely.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So we are up to 

13 the Secretary's report. Madam Bruch?

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, fellow board 

15 members, so happy to be with you in-person today. 

16 And we're going to tackle the meeting minutes 

17 from our October meeting. You all have received 

18 the minutes from our meeting that occurred in 

19 October of '22. Does anybody have any 

20 corrections or concerns from these minutes?

21 All right, seeing none, they are 

22 approved as written. Thank you. 
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right thank 

2 you. Short and sweet, moving right along. When 

3 -- I'll just give a quick Chair report and then 

4 we'll break. So we're doing well on time.

5 The day before I left for Sacramento 

6 it snowed in Montana. And it has not stopped 

7 snowing, even till now. And I think all of my 

8 fellow westerners can sympathize with it's been a 

9 really cold, hard winter.

10 It's been hard to keep calves alive. 

11 It's been discouraging not being able to get into 

12 the fields. And we, as a Board, have gone 

13 through a lot over this last six months. It's

14 been a very dynamic and challenging time. 

15 And I look to all of my fellow board 

16 members as examples of how we embody resilience. 

17 And I think that there's something to be said 

18 when we were on the farms yesterday talking to 

19 Love is Love and Grateful Pastures. And they 

20 were talking about, if you're not a sustainable 

21 business there's no way you can be a sustainable 

22 farm. 
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1 And I think if we're not a sustainable 

2 Board, there's no way we can be a sustainable 

3 industry. And I think over the past six months, 

4 we've been able to prove that, through 

5 challenging times, by holding space for each 

6 other and being really concerned and empathetic 

7 and conscientious of the work and the sacrifice 

8 and the time that this board takes, we've come 

9 through a lot.

10 And I want to give a really big 

11 shout-out to our former colleagues, Liz Graznak. 

12 As you see, we have two new resource 

13 conservation people, one Nate Lewis and one 

14 Franklin Quarcoo.

15 And Liz came from a very dynamic 

16 vegetable production farm. She's growing her 

17 operation, a first generation farmer. And at the 

18 last meeting, she came to leadership and said, 

19 this is great. This Board's incredible. And I 

20 just don't have time for it.

21 And I think that's the embodiment of 

22 the sacrifice and bravery that it takes to truly 
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1 serve this community. And I want us all to just 

2 recognize that Liz served us so well and then 

3 handed off the baton when the time was right so 

4 that we could keep going and the community could 

5 be served.

6 And I think that is something that we 

7 don't talk about when recruiting, that it might 

8 not be the right fit when you get here and how do 

9 we, through the whole process, make sure that 

10 everybody knows that we are grateful for all of 

11 your service and it's all right if it's too much.

12 But I think that that is -- the fact 

13 that were all still here, that we have such great 

14 new members and that we've returned after such a 

15 long, hard winter is the fact that this community 

16 is going to last.

17 And it's really going to stick it out. 

18 And I think we get like wonderfully contentious

19 in our public comments. We have such great 

20 transparent debates. And we all land in the same 

21 spot together. 

22 And I that that is something that has 
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1 been a long time coming. But it's also evidence 

2 that the work we're doing is in the right 

3 direction. And we are really putting our best 

4 foot forward. 

5 And so I want to thank you all, to the 

6 community but especially to my fellow board 

7 members, really, really grateful for how much you 

8 put into this work and to the program.

9 I think that we spent a lot of our 

10 lives in organic, protecting what we saw as our 

11 seal in a way from the USDA, that we weren't sure 

12 about USDA as a partner. And I think that we 

13 have an incredible partner in Dr. Tucker. And --

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: How about just, 

15 here, here.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And I would just 

17 encourage everybody, we might -- we won't always 

18 have her. And even though she can't get 

19 everything done that we want to get done and the 

20 program can't do everything and be everything to 

21 everyone, it can get a lot done.

22 And I think taking that really to 
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1 heart, that we have an incredible partner in the 

2 current program and how can we get as much done 

3 as we possibly can in the time we're given.

4 So I encourage you all to bring your 

5 big ideas. Now is the time to think really big 

6 of what do we want to accomplish together and 

7 figure out -- do your homework -- how can we, as 

8 the Board, serve you, where can we work, where do 

9 we need to go to the Farm Bill, where do we need 

10 to build coalitions to create selling and buying 

11 power amongst growers.

12 Who has the right skill set and the 

13 right authority to certain work? But we can get 

14 an incredible amount done together. And then the 

15 folks in this room, I think, are doing that work 

16 as evidenced by everything we heard today. 

17 So thank you. And let's take a little 

18 break.

19 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

20 went off the record at 11:54 p.m. and resumed at 

21 12:23 p.m.) CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So 

22 next up we're going to start one of my favorite 
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1 parts of every meeting, which is the Board's Q&A 

2 with Jenny -- or when I cry, depending on how 

3 Carolyn sees the meeting. 

4 So to get kicked off as we work our 

5 way back to our seats, this is one of my favorite 

6 parts of transparency where we get to hear 

7 directly from the program any questions the Board 

8 has.

9 So we can start in any order, but did 

10 you want to get it kicked off, Jenny? Please go 

11 ahead.

12 NOS BOARD UPDATE

13 DR. TUCKER: Okay, I do have a short 

14 presentation because I'm hoping we'll be able to 

15 address some of the Board's questions through the 

16 presentation. 

17 Okay, and we're calling this Part 2 

18 because Part 1 of the NOS presentation is in the 

19 Learning Center. And so this is something we 

20 kept from the pandemic that I think actually 

21 works really well in the interest of what Nate 

22 was just saying.
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1 We used to come here and talk for like 

2 45 minutes during this meeting which left, what, 

3 ten minutes for questions. Instead, I'm only 

4 going to talk for a few minutes and then we're 

5 going to open it up for questions because the NOP 

6 update in the Learning Center gives a good long 

7 presentation about everything that we have been 

8 working on.

9 Now I know that not everybody gets to 

10 look at full updates so I do take the things that 

11 the Board would most likely ask questions about 

12 and I do review them in the room to see if we can 

13 answer those questions in advance.

14 So usually get asked about the status 

15 of rules so I think that's probably a question 

16 from the Board. And so I wanted to give a quick 

17 reminder on the rule-making process and on that 

18 map, where we are with some of our different 

19 rules.

20 And right now we have rules that are 

21 in every stage of the rule-making process from 

22 pre-rule activity all the way to enforcement. 
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1 And in fact, tomorrow morning, there'll be a box 

2 under public comment. We will have something 

3 opening for public comments on preview today for 

4 the community to comment on.

5 So lots of rules in the pipeline. And 

6 this gives a overview of where we are, and then 

7 we're going to work our way backwards. So 

8 Strength in Organic Enforcement has been 

9 published. We're now in Communications and 

10 Implementation. 

11 We are talking with certifiers about 

12 what it means. I'm going to talk a little bit 

13 more about that in a couple of seconds because I 

14 know there's a lot of interest in SOE.

15 Origin of Livestock, we've officially 

16 moved into the enforcement phase. Everybody got 

17 time to implement the rule. We're now enforcing. 

18 And so we've asked certifiers to give us their 

19 updated systems with how they've implemented 

20 Origin of Livestock requirements.

21 And the surveillance team has it on 

22 their schedules to go out this spring, summer and 
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1 fall and actually assess compliance on that rule.

2 Working our way backwards, Organic 

3 Livestock and Poultry standards, OLPS, this is a 

4 final rule that is now in legal review which 

5 means we have finished the drafting process and 

6 the first stop of a multi-step clearance process 

7 is legal review. So that rule is under review 

8 right now.

9 Before that is public comment. 

10 Tomorrow we'll be opening a -- it's related to 

11 Origin of Livestock. It has to do with 

12 information collection, so new information that 

13 must be collected to verify compliance with 

14 Origin of Livestock.

15 Part of the clearance process revealed 

16 that we needed to update our information 

17 collection as a program. That will be on -- it's 

18 on public display today for public comment.

19 Working our way backwards, we are 

20 working on a proposed rule for a Nitrogen Rule. 

21 That is a very recent NOSB recommendations 

22 related to nitrogen fertilizers.
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1 We're also continuing work on a market 

2 development rule that addresses pet food and 

3 mushrooms. An I am going to have a slightly 

4 longer update on inerts ANPR in just a couple 

5 minutes.

6 Do want to emphasize the importance of 

7 strengthening organic enforcement final rule. It 

8 will reduce the number of uncertified entities, 

9 require the use of electronic import 

10 certificates, has a number of provisions to 

11 strengthen record keeping, supply chain 

12 traceability and strengthen oversight of 

13 accredited certifiers.

14 This is a -- it sounds -- it is 

15 game-changing. And so that's a term we've been 

16 using and it really is. And it changes the game 

17 in that certifiers are going to need to 

18 comprehensive update to their entire organic 

19 systems depending on risk.

20 It is a very risk aware rule in that 

21 it addresses challenges in traceability mainly in 

22 the middle of the supply chain. So brokers, 
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1 previously uncertified handlers, importers, so 

2 people working along complex long supply chains 

3 are the ones most impacted by this rule.

4 One of the big asks with SOE is, 

5 please, as a community, help us emphasize the 

6 need for certification. One of the most 

7 important parts of the rule is the fact that a 

8 lot of previously uncertified handlers need to 

9 get certified -- brokers, commodity brokers need 

10 to get certified.

11 Anyone who is actively engaged in 

12 handling and arranging organic trade needs to get 

13 certified. There are now very, very, very few 

14 exemptions. And so it's important for folks to 

15 read the rules to determine the impact on their 

16 systems and then start soon to complete 

17 certification.

18 I do want to remind the community how 

19 you can continue to learn where we are on 

20 progress on NOSB recommendations. There are four 

21 key ways, our NOP updates for the NOSB that we 

22 post in the Learning Center before each meeting.
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1 We do publish NOSB recommendation 

2 indices. These are all the recommendations that 

3 have come from the Board. We actually keep a 

4 scorecard on how we're doing. And that's part of 

5 how we get assessed, is how many recommendations 

6 have we implemented.

7 And so we keep track of where we are 

8 and the different types of recommendations. So 

9 you can check that. You know, we update it after 

10 each meeting.

11 We also report back to the NOSB in 

12 memos to the Board that we issue after each 

13 meeting. We've recently, in the last two 

14 meetings, added a new section to the end of the 

15 memos called regulatory priorities. 

16 And that's going to be the area where 

17 we will report back to you on what our top 

18 priorities are until the next meeting. So it's 

19 sort of a six-month work plan, this is our 

20 priority for the next few months. 

21 And I think, if you look at the 

22 rule-making slides I just covered, that's what we 
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1 said our priorities were going to be last spring. 

2 And sure enough, they're moving their way 

3 through the system.

4 And then finally, there's the OMB 

5 regulatory agenda which is issued every spring 

6 and fall. That's a government-wide tool to 

7 communicate to folks what our key priorities are 

8 across the federal government for rule-making.

9 Okay, I have a few updates on specific 

10 topics. And again, I think these are things that 

11 the Board has questions about, so I figured I 

12 would preemptively answer some of them. 

13 The first one is on inerts. And I'm 

14 going to pull up a different file because I want 

15 to make sure that I cover this. And I'm going to 

16 do a huge thank you to the Standards Division, 

17 particularly Jared who I think did a lot of this 

18 work. Yeah. Yay, thank you.

19 Inerts is a really complicated topic. 

20 And I wanted to lay out what the next steps are. 

21 This was issued as an advanced notice of pubic 

22 rule-making after many, many years of work by the 
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1 Board, by a lot of people in this room who have 

2 contributed to problem solving around inerts.

3 And so inerts, just going to give a 

4 bit of an overview here, so everybody take a deep 

5 breath, okay? All right. So inerts are 

6 ingredients other than active pesticide 

7 ingredients in pesticide products.

8 Right now, our regulations allow 

9 substances on EPA Lists 3 and 4 as inert 

10 ingredients. Unfortunately, the EPA no longer 

11 supports those lists. They've not been updated 

12 in like a long time, okay, a long time that we've 

13 had these inactive lists.

14 These are difficult because there are 

15 a lot of materials on these lists, on Lists 3 and 

16 4 that farmers rely on every single day. And so 

17 we issued, after a lot board recommendations on 

18 this, we issued an advanced notice of propose 

19 rule-making to sort of outline the work that had 

20 been done and to ask stakeholders which 

21 alternatives could replace Lists 3 and 4.

22 We put in the rule a number of 
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1 alternatives to consider and asked for input. We 

2 got almost 400 public comments in response to 

3 that ANPR. And the good news is about 70 percent 

4 of our problem looks like we've got solutions 

5 for.

6 About 70 percent of the problem, 

7 meaning the items on lists 3 an 4 we have 

8 solutions for. That's actually -- there's broad 

9 agreement on. So let's celebrate that. We've 

10 got about 70 percent of the problem we know what 

11 to do about. Yay. 

12 That leaves the other 30 percent, 

13 okay. And so the next step is that we are going 

14 to be providing a work agenda request to the 

15 Board, likely be this summer, where we're going 

16 to summarize what we believe the four key options 

17 are or might be based on public comment.

18 So it's going to lay out what the four 

19 key items are with some pros and cons. So it's 

20 an analysis of the advanced notice of proposed 

21 rule-making. 

22 Based on those four options, we're 
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1 going to ask the Board to make recommendations to 

2 the program on how we're going to -- on different 

3 options for addressing this kind of 30 percent 

4 that we need an answer on, okay. So that'll be a 

5 work agenda item for the Board.

6 We are going to put a time limit on 

7 it. So you're only going to get, you know, a 

8 certain number of meetings to work on this 

9 because we all want to get this done before these 

10 Materials Lists 3 and 4 come up for sunset again, 

11 okay.

12 So we heard loud and clear, this is 

13 really important. We don't want to continue to 

14 rely on Lists 3 and 4 which means we have to get 

15 to a final rule within a certain time period or 

16 else we're all going to be right back where we 

17 started, okay.

18 So we've got to work expediently to 

19 get to an answer and a final rule before these 

20 materials sunset. Therefore, I am asking the 

21 Board, please, please, please, when you're 

22 working on recommendations, give us all possible 
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1 options that you think are feasible, okay.

2 So we're going to lay out four options 

3 for you. What we want is as many of those in a 

4 recommendation as you think are feasible, okay. 

5 And this is why. We can't add 

6 something, a synthetic, to the National List 

7 without you. We need a recommendation from you 

8 to put a synthetic on the National List. If you 

9 give us a recommendation that ends up being 

10 untenable in terms of cost or time or 

11 implementation feasibility, we're going to be 

12 right back where we started from.

13 So rule-making has to, for example, 

14 take into account costs and benefits. What are 

15 the costs going to be to the farmers and to the 

16 processors that rely on these materials, I guess 

17 as farmers -- yeah, the farmers that rely on 

18 these materials.

19 So we need something that we can get 

20 through rule-making that takes into account those 

21 costs. Now what's different from the criteria 

22 you folks need to work with at the Board level, 
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1 but we need as many options as possible because I 

2 can't do something without you, okay.

3 So that's kind of the framing. And 

4 I'm happy to take any specific questions on that, 

5 but as many recommendations as you think you can 

6 give us where you could live with the outcome, 

7 that's what we're going to be looking for.

8 Okay, next item, technical support. 

9 You guys need help. And I think we've heard for 

10 years that the Board needs help and the Board did 

11 some really, really good work on a 

12 recommendation. This came out of the Human 

13 Capital Initiative but it's been a conversation 

14 for years.

15 And so we appreciated all the dialogue 

16 and public comment and discussion from the Board 

17 on this topic. We are ready to give you some 

18 help, okay.

19 We also appreciated that you gave us 

20 options. We are working in a fairly large 

21 complex federal system that has pretty strict 

22 hiring rules and some strict budgeting rules on 
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1 how we deal with this.

2 So what we have done at this point is 

3 we have written what's called a position 

4 description for staff members that would be able 

5 to help you, to provide a technical report with 

6 the items that you put in your recommendation to 

7 us.

8 So that's doing research for you, 

9 reviewing the public comments, providing input 

10 into your work process, to provide you with that 

11 staff level support.

12 We are, for a lot of different sort of 

13 hiring reasons, proposing to start with those 

14 positions within NOP that we already have staff 

15 that are providing you extensive technical 

16 support. 

17 A lot of them are here today. And 

18 those folks will need to help you in a way that 

19 can also support the rule-making process down the 

20 road who are informed on that and educated on

21 that.

22 And so we are proposing to recruit two 
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1 folks to stop with within NOP to provide you that 

2 technical support. We're already working with 

3 Human Resources. Once the position descriptions 

4 are finalized, we do plan to announce it in our 

5 recruiting activity and could have people in 

6 place by summer using this approach, okay.

7 So that's our update. I would love to 

8 have folks in place to support your by this 

9 summer should the federal hiring gods align, 

10 okay. 

11 Organic Transition Initiative, you 

12 heard a great update this morning. I want to 

13 thank again our panelists for being here today. 

14 Market development, I also want to 

15 give an update on an upcoming additional part of 

16 -- just a second, I got to get to that page in 

17 the play book here, there we go -- because I have 

18 some specific information to share. 

19 I shared earlier, this is a $300 

20 million initiative. A lot of the pieces have 

21 been announced so TOPP has been announced. NRCS 

22 did a launch recently in the last couple of 
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1 weeks. 

2 There's another piece on market 

3 development. There is an upcoming competitive 

4 grant request for application. So we're going to 

5 be offering this request soon to solicit grant 

6 proposals. It will be a competitive process with 

7 external peer reviewers. 

8 So we are looking for organic experts. 

9 If you're interested in serving as a reviewer, 

10 there is information on the AMS website. I think 

11 if you do a Google search on AMS Grants Peer 

12 Review you should be able to find it.

13 In general, grant application periods 

14 are open typically 60 to 90 days. Funds are 

15 available once awards are made following peer 

16 review panels and then internal administrative 

17 processes.

18 A lot of the areas that would be 

19 addressed for market development grant program 

20 are those that were focused on during the fall 

21 listening session on this topic. You can find 

22 the slides for that on the AMS website. If you 
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1 to go to USDA Organic Transition Initiative you 

2 can get to the slides for this.

3 The pinpointed markets are grain and 

4 feed, legumes and other rotational crops, organic 

5 ingredients, organic dairy markets and dairy.

6 The program is planning to be 

7 primarily regionally and/or crop specific. It 

8 will be targeted to key markets to ensure 

9 meaningful impacts. There's that word again10 impact. Investment will fund activities outside 

11 the organic certification process because we 

12 don't want to duplicate the cost/share program.

13 So that's some information to start 

14 thinking about. It will be announced sometime 

15 this spring. But thinking through what kind of 

16 partnerships you might want to develop to apply 

17 for some of those grant programs. I think that 

18 will be an important program to round out the 

19 Organic Transition Initiative.

20 We also do continue to coordinate with 

21 NRCS and MRA on these initiatives and trying to 

22 figure out how to reduce the multiple avenues in 
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1 reporting. That is -- every program has slightly 

2 different rules based on funding sources and 

3 regulations.

4 And so I think those partnerships are 

5 getting built. And so I wanted to highlight that 

6 we do have very frequent communication with those 

7 groups.

8 I also want to emphasize that even 

9 though we talk about strengthening organic 

10 enforcement being in the implementation period, 

11 there's a lot we're doing right now to protect 

12 the market and compliance and enforcement, from 

13 surveillance at country level to complaint 

14 investigations, certifier directives on a 

15 risk-based level, legal penalties covered by 

16 trademark protections, significant fees and fines 

17 or civil penalties and the fees that customs and 

18 border protection levies when they hold something 

19 at the border for a trademark violation, okay.

20 And so it's not our civil penalties, 

21 it's also customs and borders fees and penalties 

22 if you break their rules. And we have even seen 
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1 sentencing with prison time for organic 

2 violators. So there are lots of agencies out 

3 there working side by side with NOP to support 

4 the market.

5 USDA is a federal mark which means it 

6 is federal crime to break the organic rule. And 

7 that is pretty special for this seal.

8 I want to highlight Human Capital 

9 Initiative Resources. This has been a big point 

10 of emphasis. And insider came out yesterday 

11 emphasizing some of the work we've been doing in 

12 this area. 

13 We funded a number of projects a 

14 couple of years ago that are now yielding new 

15 modules within the learning centers. You want to 

16 start an apprenticeship program? Here's some 

17 tips. You want to start an internship program 

18 for the next generation? Here are some modules.

19 We've just published a Diversity, 

20 Equity, Inclusion, Accessibility Resources for 

21 the Organic Sector. That is in line with the 

22 Equity Commission recommendations. So we are 
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1 working hand in hand with USDA goals related to 

2 equity in issuing these types of training which 

3 does emphasize technical assistance.

4 So things you've been hearing today 

5 through TOPP are aligned with the equity and 

6 inclusion emphasis points of the Department where 

7 we're able to touch those through programs like 

8 TOPP.

9 And that's it. So I'm going to turn 

10 it over for the questions now.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

12 Questions for Jenny from the Board. Solid work. 

13 Go ahead, Kyla.

14 MEMBER SMITH: Hi Jenny. So in my 

15 opening I said I was equally excited and 

16 terrified for SOE and you've encouraged us all to 

17 read the rule, which we are all doing. 

18 It answers a lot of our questions and 

19 certifiers still have questions, so I was 

20 wondering if you could speak to if and when we 

21 might see additional training resources in the 

22 learning center to help support certifiers for 
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1 implementing the rule.

2 DR. TUCKER: Yeah, we will be putting 

3 a training into the learning center. I think 

4 right now we're scheduled for this summer. We're 

5 working on some support resources. I do want to 

6 emphasize, though, this is a very broad-reaching 

7 rule and every certifier system is different. 

8 This is an area where I think we have 

9 to be very, very careful with how we think about 

10 consistency because I think there are some folks 

11 who are really scared that this is going to have 

12 such an impact on small farmers and small 

13 handlers that they won't want to do it and they 

14 won't drop out. 

15 I want to make sure we have our voices 

16 over here from Georgia Organics and Carolina 

17 Stewardship and all of Rodale. All the folks who 

18 are telling us about the challenges for small 

19 farmers. We don't want SOE to adversely impact 

20 that in the search for consistency. Right?

21 The market is really trying to 

22 regulate us where the risk most lies which is the 
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1 middle of long supply chains and complex supply 

2 chains. It's those uncertified handlers where 

3 there is such an abstraction of the market that 

4 it introduces a lot of risk. We're not talking 

5 about local -- those are not the risk areas as 

6 much. 

7 I think it's very, very important for 

8 certifiers in the community to keep that in mind 

9 of what we are trying to go after. I want to be 

10 careful not to put so much abstract information 

11 out there that everybody over-interprets what the 

12 actual impact is for small farmers. 

13 And we will put something in the 

14 learning center. I think the Accredited 

15 Certifiers Association is doing a good job of 

16 setting up sessions on that as well.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

18 ahead.

19 MEMBER LEWIS: First of all, I just 

20 want to commend the program for strengthening the 

21 organic enforcement rule. It's quite an 

22 undertaking and the biggest change in the 
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1 regulation since it was launched 20 years ago. I 

2 just wanted to acknowledge that. 

3 And also acknowledge that it's the 

4 type of rule that its success means we don't 

5 actually see anything in the news. Like I always 

6 said about food safety. Like food safety is 

7 boring because when it succeeds, nothing happens.

8 I hope that is the outcome from this 

9 that we don't have news stories about how smooth 

10 and efficient and with integrity the supply chain 

11 now is. It's not a very good news headline. I'm 

12 clearly not a good journalist. Anyway, I just 

13 wanted to commend folks on that.

14 My question relates to the President's 

15 executive order related to racial justice and its 

16 work through the federal government. I see 

17 ourselves as part of the federal government so 

18 it's our obligation to do our work in that part. 

19 I encouraged to see the program taking on some of 

20 the racial equity recommendations from the Equity 

21 Commission. 

22 I found USDA's response to their 
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1 interim report somewhat underwhelming but still a 

2 good first step. I see a few things in the report

3 that the Board can take on right now in its work 

4 through the Policy Development Subcommittee and 

5 I'm excited about that. 

6 But I'm curious from the program what 

7 help or what you see we can do to help you 

8 integrate some of those recommendations into your 

9 workforce or to help support your work at the 

10 Board level.

11 DR. TUCKER: So I appreciate that. I 

12 think true change happens both at personal and 

13 system levels. Right? And so we look at actions 

14 we can take at the program level in supporting 

15 the broader USDA. I think each of us needs to 

16 look internally at what actions we can take. 

17 At the AMS level, that's the agency 

18 that we are part of, our agency was ahead of the 

19 curve on this in that they had already set up a 

20 diversity group that three folks on the program 

21 were part of for agency level.

22 I meet with Civil Rights every quarter 
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1 to look at our workforce distribution. We do 

2 active hiring through a lot of different types of 

3 recruiting mechanisms we just converted. 

4 For example, somebody from the 

5 Hispanic American Colleges and Universities 

6 Program as a full-time employee. We are about to 

7 bring on another veteran. We have strong veteran 

8 hiring. 

9 These are core values for us as a 

10 program and that I believe our agency has as a 

11 program. Certainly remote work has actually 

12 helped us in diversity and having access to more 

13 resources, both to resources in terms of vehicles 

14 to hire people through, but also just people, 

15 different types of people in different parts of 

16 the country. 

17 We've looked at our job requirements 

18 in different ways. There have been a lot of 

19 observation that organic is not particularly 

20 diverse. Right? That has been a challenge for 

21 us. We took a good hard look at our position 

22 descriptions because we were realizing that 
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1 almost every job we were hiring for needed 

2 organic experience which meant we were closing 

3 ourselves off to sources of diversity. 

4 We've done some rework of position so 

5 we can get more diversity, a broader pool of 

6 diverse candidates to pull from for some of our 

7 positions, the ones that really provide an 

8 opportunity to learn organic. You don't have to 

9 walk in the door knowing it. I would say I've 

10 also as an executive within AMS have been going 

11 to trainings and have become aware of things I 

12 wasn't aware of before. 

13 I entered the world as a woman with 

14 disabilities so I see the world through the lens 

15 of having wondered, for example, well, did I get 

16 this job because I'm a girl and because I have 

17 disabilities, or did I get it because I was 

18 qualified. I really like the fact that I think I 

19 got the job because I'm qualified, I hope. I 

20 think everyone with sources of difference wants 

21 to feel that way.

22 And when we look at our own behaviors, 
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1 the training I've gone to has helped me be more 

2 sensitive to things that maybe I didn't notice 

3 before. So there is something, in fact, I 

4 noticed this morning. As a Board I invite you to 

5 work on, if you would like to work on this issue, 

6 to work on it. 

7 But also I would ask you to look at 

8 yourselves and how you approach your world as 

9 individuals. I want you to think back to the 

10 panel and who was on the panel and who got asked 

11 the questions and who didn't. That's how we show 

12 up for each other and for a broader diverse group 

13 of people who want to be part of the organic 

14 movement.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're going to go 

16 Allison next and then Brian.

17 Allison, if you want to go ahead.

18 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you, Nate. And 

19 thank you so much, Jenny, for all of this 

20 information and your continued leadership. We 

21 really appreciate you.

22 We heard overwhelming support in the 
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1 public comments for further recognition of 

2 organic as a Climate-Smart Agriculture within 

3 USDA. I'm wondering if you can offer any advice 

4 or insight to the Board and to the organic 

5 community about how we can advance that priority 

6 within USDA in addition to the proposal that we 

7 will be voting on today.

8 DR. TUCKER: Yeah, I think that's been 

9 a very important conversation over the past 

10 couple of meetings. I would encourage you to 

11 keep having the conversation. You can give us a 

12 recommendation. There are certain items on the 

13 work agenda that we keep open like import 

14 oversight, human capital, Climate-Smart Ag. 

15 These are important conversations to have. 

16 A number of people today have been 

17 talking about really devastating things they are 

18 experiencing on their farms, right? So I welcome 

19 the Board's continued work on that and your 

20 continued work on that. We do bring that work 

21 back to USDA. 

22 We keep in close connection to the 
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1 team working in Climate-Smart Ag and the Climate 

2 Commodities Program. There are organic groups 

3 that are part of those grant programs. So 

4 keeping yourselves at the table, and 

5 participating in broader USDA programs. It 

6 doesn't just have to be within the organic 

7 community. There are lots of programs to have 

8 your voices heard in.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, and then 

10 Amy.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Nate.

12 Jenny, I want to thank you and your 

13 team for moving forward on so many fronts that 

14 are really wonderful for us. It's been great.

15 I have a very specific question. Last 

16 year, or last fall, I brought up the issue of the 

17 accreditation of the status of the Texas 

18 Department of Agriculture's certification 

19 program. As I understand it, the certification 

20 -- the accreditation of that program was 

21 withdrawn but then appealed. I just wonder if 

22 you have any updates on that.
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1 DR. TUCKER: I do. Let's see. Is 

2 Robert here? There's Robert. Okay. I just want 

3 to highlight the accreditation. Robert is our 

4 Accreditation Division director and they are the 

5 ones who oversee the certifiers. And so the 

6 Texas Department of Agriculture received a 

7 proposed suspension so they had received a lot of 

8 feedback over a time on how they needed to 

9 improve their accreditation program. 

10 They received a proposed suspension of 

11 their accreditation from us. They did appeal

12 that. The appeal was denied so an independent 

13 entity heard that appeal and denied upholding the 

14 suspension agreeing that Texas should be 

15 suspended. TDA, this is all due process in the 

16 regulations. This whole process is regulated by 

17 the regs. 

18 They requested -- TDA has requested a 

19 hearing in front of an administrative law judge 

20 so when an appeal is denied, this is true at the 

21 operation and certifier level, that they can 

22 request a further appeal step. That is now with 
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1 the administrative law judge within USDA. A 

2 hearing for that is expected in early 2024. 

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks very much.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, go ahead.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Nate.

6 Jenny, thank you so much for just 

7 articulating the progress that's been made on 

8 many fronts, including enforcement and also as 

9 well as TOPP. I did have a question with market 

10 development component within TOPP. 

11 It's a very critical component that I 

12 do believe will increase adoption to organic 

13 production methodologies, as well as retention, 

14 which is also really important within our former 

15 base.

16 I wanted to highlight two specific 

17 needs from the heartland to promote a successful 

18 deployment market such as grain and feed which 

19 really needs special attention. I do believe 

20 that they require federal licensing and better 

21 financial oversight. 

22 There has been an extreme impact to 
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1 our organic community in the grain sector with 

2 facilities going bankrupt and issuing clawbacks 

3 as well as large payments that farmers, even 

4 though they delivered grain, need to pay back the 

5 money they receive for that grain just due to the 

6 bankruptcy laws. 

7 They are really set up against 

8 farmers. They are not farmer friendly. I think 

9 that's one thing I want to make sure when we are 

10 approving these grants that there is special 

11 consideration for just the financial wherewithal 

12 of these companies.

13 Secondarily would be just overall 

14 market development. I think half the battle with 

15 the crops that are the focus area is finding that 

16 landing spot, but the other piece of that is just 

17 crop insurance protection. There is so much risk 

18 within organic farming so it's good to reduce 

19 market risk with some of these landing spots. 

20 With that, we are almost encouraging 

21 producers to grow non-insurable crops which is 

22 very different than our conventional 
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1 counterparts. I think there needs to be 

2 cross-collaboration with Risk Management Agency 

3 when we are looking at expanding markets for 

4 organic and transition producers.

5 DR. TUCKER: I really appreciate the 

6 comments. They touch on so many different 

7 things. There is the market development grants 

8 which really are focused on building that 

9 infrastructure and the ability to get from farm 

10 to market, the coordination with RMA.

11 I think the fact that you folks have 

12 been engaging in the crop insurance, you know, 

13 there are several years where that term would not 

14 have been brought up by a board. I think this 

15 Board is getting more involved in the broader set 

16 of USDA activities. I think the timing of that 

17 is absolutely right to be raising these 

18 questions.

19 I do want to emphasize also that the 

20 top technical assistance element, while it 

21 certainly is about sort of pests and weeds, which 

22 we heard about this morning, but it can also be 
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1 about market savvy and market development and 

2 business planning and what questions you want to 

3 ask and what kinds of provisions are in different 

4 contracts. 

5 How do you protect yourself as a 

6 farmer going into the market. I do think that is 

7 a critically important part of technical 

8 assistance. How do you navigate the economic 

9 landscape in a way that keeps you -- that 

10 minimizes risk as much as possible and keeps you 

11 safe. 

12 I think if there are folks out there 

13 who have expertise in that area, getting that 

14 expertise to the right people so people are 

15 asking, the sellers and the buyers know what 

16 tools might available and how to ask the right 

17 questions through that process. That can also be 

18 part of technical assistance.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

20 from the Board. All righty. We are just slaying 

21 it on time. 

22 Do you have another question?
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. 

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Well, we 

3 might not now.

4 (Laughter.)

5 MEMBER BRUCH: I have several.

6 Jenny, I would also like to ask you a 

7 question about enforcement. I'm really excited 

8 for the implementation of SOE. With the 

9 globalness of our program, I was just wondering 

10 what collaboration happens amongst our 

11 equivalency partners because I do think fighting 

12 fraud is not only the actions we do, but it's a 

13 very large endeavor. I just wanted to understand 

14 how we work with our equivalency partners when we 

15 do these enforcement acts.

16 DR. TUCKER: Yeah, it's a great 

17 question and it's an important part of what the 

18 program does. In fact, we've got a whole group 

19 of international activities that this is what 

20 they do. 

21 Equivalence for folks who are not as 

22 familiar with these topics is when we agree with 
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1 another government that are standards are 

2 equivalent meaning they achieve the same goals. 

3 They don't have to be equal or identical, but 

4 they do need to be equivalent, fair to everybody.

5 It's interesting when the initial 

6 equivalency arrangements were done early in the 

7 program they were very focused on materials and 

8 on practice standards and such like that. Today 

9 when we look at equivalency, we're really looking 

10 at a much broader control system perspective so 

11 how do they do enforcement and how do they do 

12 compliance. 

13 There have been countries that we have 

14 chosen not to do equivalent arrangements with 

15 because they are not equivalent in those systems 

16 of oversight. In those countries you have to be 

17 certified to the USDA organic to sell to the 

18 United States. 

19 I think one of the things that 

20 strengthening organic enforcement does that we 

21 haven't really talked about is it will spark a 

22 relook at all those equivalency --equivalence 
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1 arrangements to determine whether governments are 

2 still equivalent. 

3 We have been growing as an industry. 

4 We've also been growing in oversight, right? NOP 

5 is now significantly larger than it was four or 

6 five years ago to respond to market growth. 

7 One thing we need to look at is how if 

8 other governments are growing in operations, are 

9 they also growing in oversight? Are they also 

10 able to protect. If they are certifying in other 

11 countries, how do they protect those markets? We 

12 have been doing some -- we have a lot of 

13 technical conversations with other governments. 

14 We've recently entered into some very 

15 in-depth technical conversations, for example, 

16 with Canada doing supply chain audits where we 

17 have taken certain commodities and traced them 

18 back through the supply chain to see, okay, where 

19 are the systems strong, where are they weak, and 

20 what do we need to do accordingly. 

21 I think there is a lot of learning 

22 that's been produced out of that. the EU 
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1 recently published new legislation, new 

2 regulations, so we will need to engage with the 

3 EU as well because of their time line. All 

4 governments that we have equivalence with we need 

5 to renegotiate. 

6 We did terminate a trade arrangement 

7 so we ended the arrangement with India. It was a 

8 recognition arrangement where India was 

9 authorized to accredit certifiers who then went 

10 out in certified farms and we found that control 

11 system was not adequate. 

12 We had an 18-month transition which 

13 gave legitimate farmers a good period to be able 

14 to get certified under our standards. Then 

15 Robert just had four folks over in India for a 

16 full month doing unannounced inspections, reviews 

17 of the certifiers working there to oversee that 

18 market. Trade notices that. 

19 A few years ago I was told India is 

20 the wild wild west of organic. I got a call a 

21 couple of weeks ago saying, you know what? It's 

22 not the wild west as much anymore. You've done 
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1 good work there. We are making a difference in 

2 these import oversight programs.

3 Are there still challenges around the 

4 world? In many countries, yes, there are. We

5 now have more tools than we had before. Import 

6 certificates will be an added benefit of 

7 visibility and transparency into the market. 

8 One of the challenges we have are operations 

9 that get kicked out of the program like suspended 

10 operations, but they stay in the game. They keep 

11 shipping product to us even though they are 

12 suspended. Import certificates will top that. 

13 We have much better network of folks 

14 on the ground now. Certifiers have upped their 

15 game. We've upped our interaction with FAS desk 

16 officers. They were a huge help in India and 

17 have been a big help in other countries as well 

18 really understanding the dynamics on the ground.

19 Import oversight is a big part of what 

20 we do. As Nate said, you're not going to always 

21 hear the good news stories that come from that. 

22 I'm much more confident in the system than I was 
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1 a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, five 

2 years ago.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn, please go 

4 ahead.

5 MEMBER DIMITRI: Thanks for giving us 

6 all the dirt, Jenny. Several commenters asked us 

7 to try to accommodate farmers' schedules a little 

8 bit better. One suggestion we had was having 

9 like a January virtual listening session. I'm 

10 wondering could you explain like the time line or 

11 like what that process would look like if that is 

12 a direction that we thought would be useful?

13 DR. TUCKER: Yeah. So if the Board 

14 were interested in exploring that option, we are 

15 happy to explore that with you. I think there is 

16 kind of a repeatable calendar that happens every 

17 six months. The time of that meeting we've heard 

18 this feedback a lot over the years. 

19 I think at the last meeting Michelle 

20 put up a chart that kind of showed all the 

21 different possible time periods and why we ended 

22 up where we ended up on that. I think if the 
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1 Board wanted to supplement that with a fall --

2 sorry, with a winter event, we would simply need 

3 to articulate what are the goals of doing that, 

4 how does that fit in that would be between the 

5 fall and the spring meeting. 

6 How would it either inform or 

7 supplement your Board deliberations for the 

8 spring. We probably want to make it a separate 

9 federal register announcement because these are 

10 public meetings so we would have to in openness 

11 and transparency publish that in the federal 

12 register which would also then be associated with

13 a written comment for people who couldn't make 

14 the oral comments. 

15 We are deeply appreciative of the 

16 community's desire to engage in the process, and 

17 we are equally respectful of your time as 

18 volunteers. I think we will leave it to the 

19 Board to balance how you would like to proceed 

20 with that idea as a program. We are happy to 

21 collaborate with you on thinking through the 

22 mechanics of how it would need to be 
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1 administered. That was probably more than you 

2 wanted.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

4 from the Board for Jenny? All right. Any 

5 objection to breaking for lunch early? Okay. 

6 So, folks, we're going to come back at 2:45 and 

7 we are going to get kicked off with CACS 

8 Subcommittee. See you all at 2:45.

9 DR. TUCKER: Thank you very, very much 

10 everyone.

11 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

12 went off the record at 1:07 p.m. and resumed at 

13 2:45 p.m.)

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- back here. And 

15 we are getting kicked off with CACS. We still 

16 have Mindee and Allison on Zoom. And so, we'll 

17 be recording their vote for this afternoon just 

18 at the end of the line.

19 Hope everyone had a good lunch. And 

20 I'm going to hand it over to Amy to get us kicked 

21 off.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: All right. Welcome 
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1 back. Hopefully everybody had a great lunch. 

2 I'm excited to have the time that we set aside 

3 for CACS. We have three great topics to dive 

4 into that are on our work agenda.

5 But before we get started I have three 

6 additional topics to discuss as my intro. First 

7 off, I wanted to thank all the members of the 

8 CACS Committee.

9 This is, I guess last year we added 

10 another meeting so we would have more time to 

11 take on issues that mattered. So, I appreciate 

12 the flexibility of our team to do that, and the 

13 diverse perspectives out team brings.

14 Secondly I wanted to just say wow. We 

15 had a lot of great public comments, both written 

16 and oral about our work agenda items. Having 

17 voices on all sides of the equation are really 

18 important. Because that helps us make more 

19 robust recommendations. So thank you to the 

20 community for that.

21 Thirdly, I did want to highlight 

22 additional work agenda items that we're planning 
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1 on taking on in addition to any follow-ups from 

2 today's Board deliberations.

3 So, the three additional work agenda 

4 items fall into the categories of enforcement, 

5 organic and climate smart agriculture, and human 

6 capital.

7 So, the first one on enforcement, we 

8 are looking to expand residue testing for our 

9 global supply chain. The goal of that is to 

10 provide a recommendation that ensures testing 

11 remains a relevant and effective tool for 

12 compliance verification in the organic global 

13 supply chain.

14 Our second topic that we're going to 

15 be taking on as a CACS Committee is organic and 

16 climate smart agriculture. What and why organic. 

17 The goal of this, and some of you have heard 

18 Nate's questioning.

19 The goal of this document is to 

20 summarize the infrastructure behind the program, 

21 and promote the organic program's competitive 

22 advantages.
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1 And thirdly, under human capital we 

2 have a work agenda item approved for supporting 

3 the transition of producers. So, the goal of 

4 this work agenda item is to determine effective 

5 tools, resources, and alignment strategies to 

6 support organic transition, and requirements for 

7 participation in programs that support the 

8 organic transition.

9 So, without further ado let's get 

10 started into our current work agenda items. 

11 Nate, I'll have you kick us off with the proposal 

12 on organic as climate smart. Thanks for your 

13 expansive work on this topic.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. Thank you. 

15 This was actually a topic prompted by Dr. 

16 Dimitri. And it was a, it started off as a 

17 letter to the Secretary when we received 

18 information about the new administration's goals.

19 Climate change and responding to 

20 climate change through agriculture was a top 

21 priority. So, we wanted to make sure that 

22 organic was contextualized as being a really 
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1 reasonable option for addressing that concern.

2 The administration responded with, in 

3 the program, with a list of questions. I think 

4 it was 17 questions to specifically inquire for 

5 the entire rest of USDA, how is organic climate 

6 smart?

7 So, we were given a very specific set 

8 of prompts to answer. And that's what we did in 

9 this document. And so, our answers were because 

10 of the questions.

11 There wasn't a lot of latitude to 

12 explore all of the reasons, all of the fantastic 

13 reasons that organic is the most climate friendly 

14 farming option out there. But I think we got a 

15 lot in the bucket that was provided to us.

16 In the, you know, preparation for 

17 climate smart commodity partnership, which was a 

18 funding program, about $3 billion dollars 

19 released by USDA to different grant 

20 opportunities, to explore and execute climate 

21 smart research and climate smart project.

22 We had a deadline with this project. 
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1 Our job with this paper was to communicate to the 

2 USDA why is climate, why is organic climate 

3 smart? And with that we met that deadline.

4 A lot of organic project, I might say 

5 not enough, but a lot of organic projects got 

6 funding through the climate smart commodity 

7 project partnership. And so, this is a standing 

8 work agenda item. We get to talk about this 

9 more.

10 The idea with this paper is that we 

11 tried to meet this deadline so that the program 

12 would have NOPs voice as to why we should 

13 consider organic a climate smart option, and why 

14 they should be an automatic shoe in for the 

15 climate smart designation for grant funding or 

16 future programmatic designations.

17 With this document we are finished up 

18 with answering these questions. The program was 

19 really great about having a very quick turnaround 

20 for the questions.

21 Dr. Dimitri posed that we were 

22 interested in working in it. And the program 
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1 turned around with these 17 questions, saying 

2 tell us more.

3 From that we answered them. But it's 

4 not the end of the game. We get to keep working 

5 on this. This is an open work agenda item. And 

6 so, all of you brought a lot of questions about 

7 how do we expand further? How do we slice and 

8 dice what being climate smart means to organic?

9 With this particular document I feel 

10 like the end has come for the questions. We've 

11 answered the questions. It's not a vehicle for 

12 getting all of the information that we want to 

13 brag about in organic on to this one work agenda 

14 item.

15 We get more work agenda items that are 

16 a better fit, a better prompt for being able to 

17 capture all that is relevant to organic and being 

18 climate smart.

19 And so with that I would open it up 

20 for questions from my fellow Board members. We 

21 have moved this to proposal. We are now prepared 

22 to vote on it. So, let's discuss this. Brian, 
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1 please go ahead.

2 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. Thanks, Nate. 

3 I'm not feeling too good about this. I feel 

4 like I'm going to throw a little monkey wrench 

5 into the works.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Love it.

7 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. And I think 

8 that the proposal as written applies really well 

9 to about 90 percent of certified organic 

10 operations.

11 However, I am really reluctant about 

12 this. And I really struggled with this. But I 

13 really don't think that several classes of 

14 organic farms should automatically qualify for 

15 climate smart status.

16 And I can just mention a few of them 

17 that seem to be, at least the way I understand 

18 climate smart. In other words, a farming system 

19 that actually is positive in terms of responding, 

20 creating a positive response to climate change.

21 A few of them are, that I don't think 

22 qualify. One is what we call deep compost 
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1 vegetable production, which a lot of our small 

2 scale farmers do in the Northeast and the Midwest 

3 I believe. And actually can be quite successful 

4 with it.

5 But compost is applied at 

6 approximately ten times the amount or more than 

7 is actually needed for nutrients. But it's used 

8 as a weed preventive mulch. So, it's like a 

9 surface mulch.

10 And this, if this is done year after 

11 year, which is in these systems generally, it's 

12 just like an incredible input of carbon materials 

13 that is not, are not coming out in the output. 

14 So, I don't see how that one is going to qualify.

15 Another one is hydroponics and 

16 container production. Very energy and plastic 

17 intensive producing high yields of kind of very 

18 high value crops. But again, I don't think 

19 there's a positive balance there in terms of the 

20 climate.

21 Dairies, livestock operations, dairies 

22 and poultry operations that import the majority 
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1 of their feed, and don't have acres to apply the 

2 manure to, and make a, sort of an internally 

3 recycling system, I don't think they will make 

4 it.

5 And finally, the use of heavy amounts 

6 of plastic mulch in some of our berry and 

7 vegetable operations. Again, that input, throw 

8 away, you know, high energy and carbon intensive 

9 mulches every year. I just don't think the 

10 balance is there.

11 And so, I'm certainly open to the 

12 fact, I would, or open to the possibility. I 

13 would love to hear other people's thoughts on 

14 this.

15 I believe that we really do need more 

16 life cycle analyses of these kinds of systems. 

17 Almost all the research that's done on climate 

18 smart organic is done with basically soil based 

19 systems, standard cash grain rotations, and that 

20 sort of thing.

21 It's not done with these more 

22 specialized facets of organic, which are part of 
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1 our organic system. But I think don't really 

2 make it in terms of the climate.

3 So yes. And I just want to reiterate 

4 that I really do believe that 90 percent of our 

5 organic farming operations are very climate smart 

6 and climate friendly.

7 But I just really balk, I really 

8 struggle, and don't feel comfortable with this 

9 blanket sort of recommendation that all certified 

10 organic farms automatically qualify for climate 

11 smart.

12 So, I guess what I'd like to see is 

13 this to go back to the subcommittee. I believe 

14 it wouldn't take too much, it would take some 

15 serious thought.

16 But it wouldn't, it's not a big huge 

17 hurdle to fix this, and make it so that it really 

18 reflects kind of the climate smart status of 

19 organics. So, thanks.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not a wrench at 

21 all. Amy, please go ahead. No, I'm serious. I 

22 think, I don't have a direct response to it. 
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1 But, Amy, go ahead.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: I actually have a 

3 question for you, Brian. Because I'd like to 

4 have some dialogue here and open it up to the 

5 full Board as well.

6 I think we're very fortunate to be 

7 organic farmers. Because our standards are 

8 clear. I am just questioning, when you say 

9 climate smart there isn't currently a one 

10 definition for that word.

11 So, I'm curious, when you're 

12 mentioning it for your comment, what is your 

13 definition, so we can calibrate as a Board what 

14 we're talking about?

15 Because climate smart has different 

16 facets to it. So, I'm just curious for your 

17 interpretation.

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. That's, I 

19 struggled with that one too. And I don't know if 

20 I can articulate it perfectly. But it's 

21 basically a farming system where the input, when 

22 you balance the inputs of energy and carbon, and 
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1 the, again, the kind of the life cycle of the 

2 inputs, in terms of the energy that's required to 

3 create them, and you balance that with the 

4 outputs of the system, that, including the 

5 buildup of carbon in the soil, which is a big 

6 part of what we're doing here.

7 And we got to remember that that, the 

8 input for that is the sunlight from the sun that 

9 is the driving force of this plan. That's the 

10 carbon that we're really trying to fix into the 

11 soil, right.

12 Anyways, our inputs minus our outputs, 

13 it needs to be a balance where the outputs are 

14 bigger than the inputs. So, that's the way I'm 

15 looking at it.

16 And I would love to hear some other 

17 takes on it. Because that would really change 

18 basically my conclusions on this I think.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Go ahead, 

20 Logan.

21 MEMBER PETREY: Okay. This is like 

22 share material now. So, a question like the 
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1 inputs and the outputs. Is that per, in your 

2 mind is that per season or per year? Because of 

3 rotations we, you know, we rely on. And the 

4 cover crops that come after the plasticulture, 

5 you know.

6 And so, organics is the entire system. 

7 And yes, strawberries or tomatoes, like Mr. 

8 Paul, you know, mentioned, got to be on plastic 

9 for the type of production.

10 But is it more climate smart than the 

11 conventional counterpart, you know, its 

12 counterpart there because of the entire system 

13 that organics has built into the OSP?

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: Well that, thanks, 

15 Logan. Yes. I think that's one of the ways that 

16 this proposal could be I believe improved. And 

17 that is that I think almost any organic system is 

18 going to be more climate smart than its 

19 conventional counterpart.

20 And certainly you want to use the 

21 whole system. You don't want to just look at, 

22 you know, one short season crop, and then forget 
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1 about all the other good things that happen in 

2 the rotation. It's got to be the whole rotation 

3 and the whole farm.

4 But we are, so, in terms of suggesting 

5 that all certified organic operations should be 

6 eligible for Government climate smart systems, 

7 we're not saying that, you know, that they're 

8 better than their non-organic counterpart. We're 

9 saying that they are climate smart. And I don't 

10 think, I don't feel good about that. I don't 

11 think that's quite right.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think Dilip and 

13 then Carolyn.

14 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Nate. This 

15 is rather a clarification, maybe to Amy or 

16 somebody else from the Board. This proposal is, 

17 are we going to suggest that organic agriculture 

18 in general is climate smart?

19 Or we are talking that each organic 

20 agriculture or organic management practices, like 

21 say whether the use of cover crops, or manure, or 

22 compost, is climate smart, and certain organic 
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1 management practices are not climate smart?

2 Are we doing that part? Or we are 

3 just proposing this about in general organic 

4 agriculture is climate smart? That's, I just 

5 want to understand here what you're, thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: To answer these 

7 questions that were posed by the administration, 

8 we're posing that the regulations are climate 

9 smart, not that the interpretation down the line 

10 always lands how we want it to land.

11 But that as we look through where 

12 we've cited the different points of the 

13 regulation we were given if you turn to Page 3 of 

14 the proposal.

15 When we look at the questions the 

16 administration prioritized very specific 

17 practices, cover crops, low till or no till, 

18 nutrient management, buffers.

19 We were asked what of these qualifies 

20 in organic? How does organic interact with these 

21 very specific practices? And we're saying, per 

22 the standards they all do. Or I think at least 
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1 13 of the 14 are all baked into the standards.

2 And so, when we're looking to, is 

3 organic generally, should it be considered 

4 climate smart, they were not asking are there 

5 specific practices that should be excluded. 

6 They're asking, are these specific practices 

7 included?

8 And that was the prompt. It's not a 

9 freeform essay. It's a, we asked, we answered 

10 very specific questions by the administration 

11 about where do you fall on these particular

12 practices?

13 So, cover cropping, and pasture 

14 practices. And organic resoundingly is head and 

15 shoulders above, if I dare say it, it's not the 

16 administration saying it, it's me saying it, 

17 above conventional.

18 And if we can't say that, folks, we've 

19 got a bigger problem on our hands. And so, if we 

20 are going to message that internally and very 

21 transparently, we're going to dice out the 

22 details.
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1 But for this one we're saying, for 

2 these practices requested organic is the 

3 solution. And any time you're going to make an 

4 organic claim for grant funding or NRCS programs, 

5 or anything, organic folks who are certified are 

6 going to be considered. They're not going to be 

7 put into the back of the line. And that's a 

8 risk.

9 And frankly, it is an organic versus 

10 conventional. That's what we're up against. We 

11 are up against a question of is organic even at 

12 the table? And the jury is still somewhat out 

13 with the administration.

14 This doesn't suddenly make everybody 

15 love organics. But it was our attempt to try to 

16 really clearly message that for what you're 

17 considering climate smart these questions, which 

18 frankly just don't address the concerns that you 

19 raised as far as practices that you would want to 

20 push out of that, off the table.

21 For these practices organic has it 

22 baked in. Organic was the original climate smart 
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1 solution. When they were thinking about what is 

2 climate smart, really they just plucked from the 

3 organic standards, which we should be singing 

4 with our greatest praise, Hallelujah, because it 

5 actually works.

6 Our system works. We have a market 

7 for it. We should all be with one voice shouting 

8 from the rooftops that we have something that 

9 actually works, as opposed to having to reinvent 

10 the wheel.

11 So, that question to Dilip, I'm sorry, 

12 this is a very long answer to Dilip's question is 

13 that we were asked about these particular 

14 practices.

15 How do they correspond to the climate 

16 smart prompts? And we answered that they're 

17 baked right into the regulations.

18 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Nate.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Nate, 

20 or I'm sorry. Carolyn and then Nate.

21 MEMBER DIMITRI: I was starting to 

22 think you were passing me over on purpose, Nate. 
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1 So first I want to say something to you Nate. I 

2 really admire and respect your desire to have no 

3 conflict.

4 And I do think that there is been a 

5 history of conflict on the NOSB and in organic. 

6 And it comes out loud and clear in our public 

7 comments, and many other areas.

8 So, like I recognize that you are 

9 trying very hard to like navigate us through kind 

10 of what could be land mines. So, I do think like 

11 everyone on the Board that, well, there's nothing 

12 --

13 Anyway, I don't think we're going to 

14 personally, this Board will have a giant falling 

15 out over this particular proposal. But that said 

16 I do have some comments.

17 So, one is like just in interest of 

18 full disclosure, also there are some new people 

19 on the Board. When we got the 17 questions I 

20 came back with a very snarky academic answer to 

21 the 17 questions, which basically were like, 

22 USDA, go ask your staff all of these questions. 
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1 And don't ask us this. And Nate was much more 

2 diplomatic, and wrote out point by point answers.

3 And I do see what you're saying about 

4 practices and organics. But I have, what, two 

5 thoughts, well, three thoughts actually.

6 So one is, when people read this, 

7 people aren't going to be thinking we're talking 

8 about the practices. They will think that this 

9 is a statement on anything that's certified 

10 organic by USDA. So, I think it's important to 

11 keep that in mind.

12 Two, I think that, I agree with Brian. 

13 I think that there are some cases where it's 

14 just not going to be true. And I think in, and 

15 those are the cases that I worry about. Because 

16 I think that often those types of facilities are 

17 able to produce at a much lower cost of 

18 production.

19 And then there's this competitive 

20 advantage that they have in the market. And they 

21 make it harder for the other farms to compete in 

22 the marketplace. And I think you see this in 
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1 organic berries very clearly, right.

2 If we're just going to think about the 

3 western operations, and the issues about lower 

4 feed costs, and what this means for higher levels 

5 of profitability. And that concerns me.

6 And I also think the climate smart 

7 phrase is not defined yet. But there are plenty 

8 of companies that do a really great job at 

9 marketing based upon climate smart agriculture.

10 And so, I guess I don't really want to 

11 add anything to some company's ability to say 

12 that some hydroponic facilities, sorry Jerry, is 

13 going to be climate smart, and that consumers 

14 will be able to see it on a product and buy it.

15 And so, I don't know whether the right 

16 thing is to send it back to committee. Maybe we 

17 could make some small tweaks, so that it would be 

18 more acceptable.

19 Because this is part of the public 

20 record. And people are not going to like sit and 

21 think about like all of the angst every one of us 

22 has gone through as we look at this.
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1 So anyway, those are my thoughts. 

2 Thank you for listening.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. Nate.

4 MEMBER LEWIS: Yes. I think I'm 

5 trying to synthesize my thoughts into something 

6 not too raggedy.

7 But I hear you loud and clear, Brian. 

8 And, Carolyn, you have repeated it as well, that 

9 there are likely going to be some operations that 

10 don't provide a net carbon sink, which I think is 

11 a way, one way of describing kind of your 

12 concern, as you've got production of food that is 

13 continuing to mine the soil for carbon, or not 

14 absorb more carbon than it's emitting in its 

15 production practices.

16 And I'm not sure if I think that every 

17 organic farms needs to be a carbon sink in order 

18 for that organic farm to be climate smart.

19 And I certainly think that the 

20 regulations as they are written have the 

21 potential to be applied on any farm to be a 

22 climate smart option.
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1 So, the reason I'm supportive of 

2 getting this back to the USDA is because they've 

3 provided us an opportunity to weigh in. And 

4 they're seemingly trying to draw a circle around 

5 everything that's climate smart.

6 And if we don't jump in that circle 

7 the ship's going to be out of the harbor. And 

8 then we're going to be kind of like clawing back 

9 with, you know, we just do more hand wringing and 

10 say, these types of operations, or this thing, or 

11 that thing. And we parse it out like we usually 

12 do.

13 I'm concerned we're going to miss the 

14 ship, and we're not going to get included in the 

15 VENN diagram like we are in a lot of other USDA 

16 programs, where we're now trying to do little 

17 fixes at RMA for crop insurance.

18 We're trying to do little fixes at FSA 

19 to actually get our cost share program. Or, you 

20 know, all these different things. I feel like 

21 getting on the bus early is really critical with 

22 USDA.
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1 We can come back and say, and actually 

2 these types of operations, soil based operations 

3 that don't cover crop enough I think could 

4 potentially be not climate smart.

5 There's a lot, there's a whole bunch 

6 of potential opportunities there to sort of carve 

7 folks out. But I don't think we need to do that 

8 before we respond to USDA about all the things 

9 that already exist that meet what they seem to be 

10 implying is their definition for this.

11 So, I want to get on the bus. I want

12 to be on the front of the bus. And we can kick 

13 people off if we need to. But yes, I think I'll 

14 just leave it there.

15 That's sort of the driving force 

16 behind why I want to move this forward, no matter 

17 how imperfect it may be. I think it's actually a 

18 really good proposal. Thanks.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood, please go 

20 ahead.

21 MEMBER TURNER: I just, I really like 

22 Brian's definition earlier about sort of what 
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1 climate smart means to you, in terms it's for 

2 that carbon balance, if you will, on an 

3 individual farm.

4 I just want to sort of, from my 

5 standpoint, and I know this is neither here nor 

6 there. But I think the frame is bad. I don't 

7 love the frame. I don't love the fact that the 

8 question we were asked is something related to 

9 something a little bit buzzy called climate 

10 smart.

11 I mean, I, the only, I fundamentally 

12 believe that responsible agriculture should be 

13 focused on storing as much atmospheric carbon as 

14 it possibly can, period, the end.

15 But I don't like thee frame. I don't 

16 like the, this sort of in or out climate smart 

17 issue. And for me, you know, I look at Page 3 of 

18 the proposal. And, you know, the chart that's in 

19 the proposal is called principles of regenerative 

20 agriculture.

21 And I guess the point that I want to 

22 make is that I wish the paper were more about 
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1 organic being regenerative. Organic is 

2 regenerative.

3 I feel like there's so much 

4 conversation from so many different angles in the 

5 community about, you know, what we, you know, 

6 what is this regenerative? What does that mean? 

7 What does this mean?

8 And honestly, I feel like for me 

9 fundamentally the issue that matters the most to 

10 me, not whether organic is climate smart. And I 

11 get the frame. I don't like the frame. Is 

12 simply that organic is regenerative, period, the 

13 end.

14 We should be singing that from the 

15 rooftops in every way possible. And I wish we 

16 were spending more time focused on that 

17 particular issue, which I think is so clearly 

18 outlined in the table on Page 3. So, I just 

19 wanted to say that.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Kyla, 

21 please go ahead.

22 MEMBER SMITH: Thanks, everybody, for 
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1 your conversations on this topic. I was sitting 

2 here reflecting, and sort of landed similar to 

3 what Nate Lewis had said. So like now we have to 

4 say NPP or Nate Lewis, Nate 1, Nate 2.

5 Anyway, I'm thinking about unintended 

6 consequences and timeline. So, that was what I 

7 was thinking about too. And is it better to move 

8 forward with the proposal and have a seat at the 

9 table?

10 Or, and what's the unintended 

11 consequences of that option and that action, 

12 versus sending it back to Subcommittee, not 

13 having a seat at the table. And what are the 

14 unintended consequences of that action?

15 So, I generally, yes, Carolyn, if you 

16 want to speak to that. That's an open question 

17 anybody can respond to.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. I think so. 

19 Yes.

20 MEMBER DIMITRI: Okay. Jenny, I guess 

21 I'm curious. It seems to me that USDA is down 

22 the climate smart road already. And like, 
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1 they're not waiting for this, are they?

2 DR. TUCKER: Well, waiting for it. 

3 They're very interested in hearing from the 

4 community. There are folks with, USDA is through 

5 this work agenda item trying to help you tell the 

6 story of organics. And there's a lot about 

7 organics that is climate smart. And so, I can't 

8 advise you what to do with this proposal.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No, no, no. No 

10 worries.

11 (Laughter.)

12 DR. TUCKER: Really. I mean, really.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Jerry, 

14 please go ahead.

15 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes. I've got a 

16 really simple question. And sometimes things 

17 come down to one word. When we first started 

18 this, and it was under Carolyn's pen, I asked the 

19 question about unintended consequences, and what 

20 do we want of this document?

21 And what I got back made tremendous 

22 sense to me at the time. And maybe life has gone 
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1 on, and we've got other things we're talking 

2 about.

3 But the answer was, we want to get in 

4 the queue. We want to be in the queue that we by 

5 and large, as the organic stepchild are not in 

6 the queue.

7 You take a look at conventional and 

8 what goes to conventional. And then you look at 

9 organic and its, what it's contributing both in 

10 terms of dollars and what's being planted to it. 

11 It's, those are two different, those are vastly 

12 different things.

13 So, it made a lot of sense to me then. 

14 Now, to Brian, I'm sitting back. I'll take us 

15 back to our oral comments just last week. And 

16 I'm going, holy crap, hydroponic, hydroponic, 

17 hydroponic.

18 Are we, first quarter of our time we 

19 had 12 references to hydroponic. And I am 

20 sensitive to that. And where I today got, 

21 because I was going to follow on to that, to, and 

22 say, okay, hydroponics is part of the discussion.
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1 I was going to contribute that I went 

2 through and saw four different references out of 

3 our oral comments that directly linked 

4 hydroponics to climate smart agriculture and 

5 said, doesn't work.

6 So, where am I going with all of this? 

7 I'll take it back to your opening comments. And 

8 if I misheard them then my whole speech here is 

9 not worth much. But we've got a living document 

10 here, do we not?

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No.

12 MEMBER D'AMORE: What's that?

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No.

14 MEMBER D'AMORE: That means this is 

15 it?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: This is it. We 

17 have a living work agenda item. But for these 

18 questions --

19 MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay. Excuse me. 

20 That's where, I beg your pardon. A poor choice 

21 of words. We've got stuff to do on this 

22 document.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely.

2 MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Climate change 

4 ain't over, folks. This did not solve it. 

5 Shocker.

6 MEMBER D'AMORE: So, I stayed quiet 

7 until this point because I thought I saw things 

8 coming together in a way that made sense to me. 

9 And with that, this does make sense to me.

10 I think we need to be in the queue. 

11 And the queue makes sense to me. The origins of 

12 that make sense to me. We're not in the queue. 

13 Let's get in the queue.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim then Amy.

15 MEMBER SMITH: This is not perfect. 

16 But I don't know if I can answer Brian's 

17 questions and make it perfect in this format, or 

18 in taking it back to subcommittee and trying to 

19 redefine it.

20 Things that I wrestle with, with being 

21 climate smart, as an industry there is a lot of 

22 work to do. But this is a starting point to get 
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1 us where we can go.

2 And I just haven't heard enough to say 

3 if we take it back. That when we bring it back 

4 up in the fall that we present a document. I 

5 feel like we'll be six months behind.

6 And we have to start somewhere, I 

7 guess is where I'm going with this. And I'm not 

8 making, I won't, I hear you, Jerry. It's hard to 

9 make sense of it.

10 But at the same time I would say we 

11 have to sometimes live in a little bit of grey in 

12 order to get to better black and white. And I'm 

13 comfortable with this moving forward.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, I'm sorry, 

15 Frank. Amy and then you. That's right.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: I'm glad that this 

17 topic and this work agenda item is actually a 

18 living one. This topic, and we have to refer to 

19 the scope.

20 I agree with what's been said. We got 

21 to get on the bus. We got to be in the queue. 

22 However, I believe we actually should be leaders 
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1 in this area, and then in future areas with this 

2 subject matter. And I think it's really 

3 important.

4 Carolyn actually I think got us in the 

5 conversation. Because there was a letter that 

6 she wrote to the Secretary of Ag. Because in his 

7 initial climate smart agriculture debut there was 

8 zero references to organic agriculture.

9 We need to be leaders in this sector. 

10 And I think we can look at this as somewhat 

11 iterative as well. I think there's way more to 

12 the equation than just carbon when looking at 

13 climate smart agriculture and regenerative 

14 agriculture. And we need to be leaders on those 

15 next pillars. This is kind of a grey situation 

16 that we need to be able to make black and white.

17 Water is an important resource that 

18 needs to be considered in here. It's outside of 

19 the scope.

20 But it can be part of the next 

21 conversation. Social aspects with regenerative 

22 agriculture and climate smart agriculture are 
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1 really important. We need to be leaders in that 

2 conversation.

3 And there's so many other subsets that 

4 are just not being talked about, because we're 

5 only focused right now on carbon. So, this is I 

6 believe the first of many conversations. And the 

7 organic sector needs to be the leader in this 

8 area.

9 That's my thoughts. I'm curious what 

10 the Board thinks. But then I also have one 

11 question for you, Nate. Based on oral comments 

12 there was also a correction --

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: -- that in this current 

15 document we should probably talk about the need 

16 for changes. So, two things there. Thank you.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. I'm going to 

18 go to Franklin, then come back. Franklin.

19 MEMBER QUARCOO: So, I'm of the view 

20 that with all that is done in organic agriculture 

21 we are more qualified than most to be in this 

22 category. We don't have to be perfect in order 
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1 to be in the group. And so, if we want to wait 

2 until all the kinks are ironed out we will never 

3 get onboard.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear.

5 MEMBER QUARCOO: Thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Other 

7 questions? Other comments? Sure, yes. We heard 

8 from the, I need to give the script to ever 

9 articular Mike Dill that we have some absolutes 

10 that need to be adjusted.

11 And so, synthetic nitrogen instead of 

12 synthetic fertilizers. And then most instead of 

13 all. And so a friendly amendment in the cover 

14 letter to correct those. Brian.

15 MEMBER JOHNSON: Nate, can I jump in 

16 after Brian?

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, I'm sorry. 

18 Yes. Actually, Mindee and Allison, please go 

19 ahead. I'm sorry.

20 VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Go ahead, 

21 Allison.

22 MEMBER JOHNSON: Okay, thanks. Along 
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1 the lines of synthetic nitrogen fertilizer, I 

2 just wanted to raise that the question that USDA 

3 is putting forward is not necessarily what is the 

4 climate smartest. It's just what's climate 

5 smarter, or climate smart as a baseline.

6 And the production and use of 

7 synthetic nitrogen fertilizer accounts for 2.4 

8 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions. So, 

9 just the simple prohibitions on most synthetics 

10 in organic, for me baseline is one of the reasons 

11 that we can definitively say that organic is 

12 climate smarter when the dominant practices rely 

13 on those greenhouse gas intensive inputs.

14 And I think one of the reasons that it 

15 has been, one of the reasons that there has been 

16 so much focus on health soil and carbon 

17 sequestration is that it's a way to avoid talking 

18 about the greenhouse gas footprint of those 

19 inputs. So, I think it's really important for us 

20 to all remember to mention that key point.

21 And, Brian, I think, I appreciate you 

22 raising the sort of range of climate benefits 
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1 that we might see from different types of 

2 production.

3 But that synthetic input piece is 

4 present for every type of organic agriculture, 

5 whether it's, you know, production of animal feed 

6 or, you know, switching compost in for other 

7 synthetic fertilizers.

8 So, I think we have a lot to stand on, 

9 and shouldn't let the sort of dream of the 

10 perfect get in the way of touting organics 

11 climate benefits across the board.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee, did you 

13 want to go ahead?

14 VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Sure. Thank you. 

15 I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and 

16 comments, and the great work of this document.

17 And from where I'm standing this is a 

18 little bit different than the context that this 

19 Board usually engages. Generally we are really 

20 engaged with particulars, the weeds and seed, and 

21 the minutiae of what it takes to produce food at 

22 the scale of nations with a lot integrity.
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1 And in this moment, with this 

2 document, for me the greater context of our 

3 concern for the earth and for our future, we have 

4 this opportunity to communicate that we 

5 understand the scope of the work the USDA is 

6 tasked with managing.

7 And I have to stand there and step 

8 aside from the organic bubble, and really think 

9 with them. For me it's with a lot of humility 

10 and awe around what takes to shape and move a 

11 nation.

12 And in this context organic has the 

13 potential, like maybe the younger sibling of the 

14 food system. This is a real opportunity for us 

15 to voice the very specific and sound systems 

16 approach.

17 That this organic legally enforceable 

18 version of food production, it is climate smart. 

19 And it deserves both the designation and the 

20 elevated consideration by the USDA as such.

21 So for me this isn't about the 

22 politics of the particulars. It's, this document 
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1 provides those who may not be intimately 

2 acquainted with the greater work of organic, this 

3 provides them with the information they need to 

4 produce greater understanding of our work.

5 And that this $60 billion dollar 

6 economy is moving the needle on being great 

7 stewards of this our home climate. And that this 

8 opportunity to voice that directly to those who 

9 are tasked with managing the enormity of 

10 agriculture in this country for me is, I want to 

11 be there.

12 And our voice could be expressed very 

13 clearly. And I'm going to really proud to 

14 support this document with my whole heart and my 

15 vote.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Madame 

17 Vice Chair. Brian, did you want to go next?

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. Thanks so 

19 much. I really, really appreciate everybody's 

20 thoughts on this. What I'm hearing is, and I 

21 believe Nate has said it several times, that we 

22 don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the 
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1 good.

2 And I'm hearing from everybody that 

3 it's kind of, maybe in the scientific literature 

4 you have to be really careful about what you say. 

5 But in communications that are not that parsed 

6 and rigorous a little overstatement is not 

7 necessarily a bad thing.

8 I think that this document has, makes 

9 really, really powerful arguments in favor of 

10 organic, okay. And I feel like my objections to 

11 it are not as important as the goal I see that we 

12 can achieve.

13 And you folks have convinced me of 

14 this. And I think I'm going to change my mind on 

15 it. And like I say, I really appreciate 

16 everybody's thought. I think that we can say 

17 that we put this through the wringer, and really 

18 kind of like, you know, kind of pummeled it a 

19 little bit.

20 But that the main thrust of it and, 

21 you know, like I say, I'm going to say 90 percent 

22 of the arguments in this paper are just really 
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1 forceful and positive. So, I want to thank you 

2 all for that.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much. 

4 And thank you for the debate. I really 

5 appreciate you bringing up these concerns. Nate, 

6 please go ahead.

7 MEMBER LEWIS: Yes. Just really 

8 quickly. I really like Allison's idea about 

9 climate smarter and climate smartest. And maybe 

10 we can wrestle that at a future Board meeting. 

11 Just some novelty awards as well.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry.

13 MEMBER D'AMORE: Sorry, but Nate 

14 prompted this one. And this is probably just an 

15 older guy's issues. I've heard in this room 

16 today back and forth two things. Organic is the 

17 climate smart solution. Or it's a, an. So, 

18 which one is it?

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have to say I'm 

20 just an organic guy all the way. So, it's the 

21 organic --

22 MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay. Okay.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- climate smart 

2 solution.

3 MEMBER D'AMORE: Right. Okay.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other thoughts. 

5 Dilip, please go ahead.

6 MEMBER NANDWANI: I haven't seen a 

7 clear definition of climate smart yet. I'm not 

8 sure I might be wrong. And if we don't have one 

9 I'd like to see near future. I don't know, is it 

10 the USDA's or NOP's job, or whose exactly?

11 But in the near future I'd like to see 

12 a clear definition what we call really climate 

13 smart I think. But just thank you.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I am right there 

15 with you. And no, we don't have a definition 

16 yet. Other thoughts, folks? All right. With 

17 that I'll hand it back to Amy. Brian, to make 

18 sure I caught you right, did you want to put a 

19 motion to send it back to subcommittee?

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. All 

22 right. So with that I think we're going to the 
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1 vote. But --

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Sorry, what?

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. So any other 

4 discussion before we go to the vote? So we have 

5 a motion. It was motioned out of subcommittee by 

6 myself, and then seconded by Amy Bruch. And I 

7 think actually I'm supposed to hand this off to

8 you now as Chair. So, let me shut up.

9 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. I guess, are we 

10 ready to vote? Or is there a motion to return it 

11 back to subcommittee?

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No motion.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Well, I'll just read 

16 the motion for the record then. We have a motion 

17 to accept the proposal on organic as climate 

18 smart agriculture. And we're going to go around 

19 at the Board table and vote. And I'll record the 

20 votes here.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're going to 

22 start with Javier Zamora, absent. And then, 
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1 Allison, if you would go next.

2 MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian.

4 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate Lewis.

6 MEMBER LEWIS: Yes.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip.

8 MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry. Kyla.

10 MEMBER SMITH: Yes.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy.

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee.

14 MS. LEE: I would like to hear Jerry's 

15 vote, because I couldn't, if you don't mind.

16 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

17 MS. LEE: Thank you very much. I want 

18 to get the record right for Michelle. And Mindee 

19 is a yes.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee is a yes. 

21 Kim.

22 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin.

2 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood.

4 MEMBER TURNER: Abstain.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan.

6 MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn.

8 MEMBER DIMITRI: Abstain.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

10 votes yes.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: All right. We had to 

12 tally based on our sheet here. So, we had 12 

13 yes. We had two abstentions. We had zero no. 

14 We had one absent. We had zero recusals. So, 

15 the motion passes. We needed a two-thirds vote 

16 there, two-thirds majority vote. Motion passes.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

18 everyone. Thank you Board. Back to you.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: All right Now we're up 

20 for our second item, which is a discussion 

21 document. This is a really important one for the 

22 community. And I really appreciate Carolyn's 
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1 lead on this.

2 We had a research forward based 

3 approach on this document, the crop insurance 

4 work agenda item. And we are looking to build on 

5 this to make recommendations for a future 

6 proposal.

7 But in the meantime, Carolyn, I'll 

8 have you kick us off for the discussion document. 

9 Thank you.

10 MEMBER DIMITRI: Thank you. Michelle, 

11 where is the, oh, thank you, Michelle. Now you 

12 can show me how to use it. Okay. Okay. Thank 

13 you.

14 Okay. Thank you, everyone. So, I 

15 just have a, like a few background things to say. 

16 My professor hat is coming on. So, I apologize 

17 for people who hate school.

18 So, partly this is part of a larger 

19 research project that I'm working on to try to 

20 improve farm programs for organic farmers. And 

21 the crop insurance part I think fits really well 

22 into the NOSB work.
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1 And so, many people on the Board and 

2 out here have been interviewed by my team of

3 researchers who have been doing a really nice job 

4 of tracking people down and asking them lots of 

5 questions.

6 Interestingly enough, Liz talked to 

7 them for three hours, which I thought was so 

8 impressive.

9 So, I am going to take us back through 

10 time a little bit here. And part, and there's a 

11 reason for this. And I think partly looking at 

12 how farm programs have evolved over time is 

13 really helpful when we try to think about how we 

14 can change them going ahead.

15 So, crop insurance was one of the very 

16 first farm programs, created in 1938. The target 

17 crop at that time was wheat. And one little 

18 known fact that I'm sure Amy loves is that you 

19 used to be able to pay your premium in actual 

20 wheat, rather than money.

21 But farmers didn't really like crop 

22 insurance. And there was very slow adoption of 
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1 crop insurance over time. And so, in the 1980 

2 Farm Bill that bill said that the insurance 

3 premiums would be subsidized by the Federal 

4 Government.

5 And then at that point in time was 

6 created the system that we have now, where you 

7 have private sector agents selling the insurance. 

8 And still farmers didn't like it.

9 So, in 1994 the subsidy was increased. 

10 And then there became a lot of requirements to 

11 get crop insurance if you were going to enroll in 

12 any farm program. And so, you do see this large 

13 increase at this point in time. And again, in 

14 2000 the premium subsidies increased.

15 And then we all know when the 

16 Agricultural Act of 2014 there was this major 

17 shift in farm policy to go from supporting farm 

18 income to managing risk.

19 And so almost all of our farm programs 

20 at this point in time, you know, are couched as a 

21 form of risk mitigation. And there are very few 

22 direct payments left.
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1 So, okay, let's see. What's next? 

2 And just ERS, the economic research service makes 

3 these really great charts. And this basically 

4 just shows for the main commodity crops, the use 

5 of crop insurance by acre.

6 And so, you see between 1994 and 1995 

7 there is that big jump in acreage being insured. 

8 And that was really because of the tying to 

9 being eligible for any farm program at that point 

10 in time.

11 Okay. So, if you, so there's a lot of 

12 discussion about farm, crop insurance. And 

13 there's a lot of, been a lot of discussion about 

14 with the risk management agency.

15 And one of the problems is because 

16 they're a program agency, and because organic is 

17 so small, it's really hard to understand, like 

18 what is actually the extent of usage of crop 

19 insurance.

20 And so the RMA has this summary of 

21 business. And they report kind of weird things. 

22 And so, one thing they report is the share of 
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1 acres insured by crop insurance. And so, the 

2 orange bar is conventional, and the blue bar is 

3 organic.

4 And so, you see for wheat, and 

5 soybeans, and corn -- I was kind of surprised by 

6 apples. You do have almost all of the farmland 

7 for conventional under, being insured. And for 

8 wheat you actually have a greater share of acres 

9 being insured.

10 And then, there's this part of the 

11 Farm Bill that requires that crop insurance be 

12 actuarially fair, which means that the payments 

13 that come out, plus some cost of administration 

14 have to be roughly equal to the subsidies and the 

15 premiums that are being paid.

16 And so, the thing that you, I think is 

17 very striking here is, if you look at these loss 

18 ratios -- Okay. So, if it's one it basically 

19 means like what's coming in is going out.

20 So, if it's less than one then 

21 someone's pocketing some money. And if it's more 

22 than one then the federal government, also known 
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1 as the taxpayer, is paying out money.

2 And so, for organic crops, with the 

3 exception of apples, the loss ratios are very, 

4 very much higher than they are in the 

5 conventional sector.

6 And so, I have a lot of questions 

7 about why the risk management agency has these 

8 set up as two separate risk pools. But that's 

9 what they have.

10 And so, I think when you think about 

11 moving ahead, and making crop insurance work you 

12 also have to deal with this reality that from an 

13 economic perspective it doesn't seem to pay, 

14 because there's more money going out than coming 

15 in.

16 And so, the, I, people know about this 

17 study that NCAT did with this professor, Eric 

18 Belasco. And they collected a lot of data using 

19 OREI funding, to try to understand why organic 

20 farmers aren't using crop insurance.

21 And so, through their survey they had 

22 about, I don't, I think like 1,400 farmers that 
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1 answered their survey. And this reports the 

2 percent of their farmers that use crop insurance.

3 And so, from the people that they 

4 talked to, the field crop, which is not a 

5 surprise, producers were using crop insurance at 

6 higher rates than other producers. But you still 

7 see it's only about 25 percent.

8 And, I mean, they could have some 

9 sample selection bias, and that's why the numbers 

10 are low. But I think overall you see fairly low 

11 adoption levels.

12 And something that my research team is 

13 trying to do is see if they can look at a state 

14 or even a county level, to try to compare 

15 adoption rates by commodity for organic and 

16 conventional crop insurance. I'm not sure it's 

17 going to be possible. But they're hard at work 

18 doing that right now.

19 And so, the research findings 

20 regarding the use of crop insurance, most of this 

21 work was done by Belasco and Fuller. They really 

22 can't say anything about whether the size of the 
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1 farm or the diversity has very much to do with 

2 the likelihood of an organic farmer using crop 

3 insurance.

4 And that basically in order to get 

5 conventional farmers to use crop insurance you 

6 have to give higher subsidies. And pretty much 

7 everyone accepts that organic farmers have lower 

8 insurance participation.

9 And the reasons that farmers give for 

10 not using crop insurance, I think these are 

11 things that the public comments reflected, and 

12 everyone knows this pretty well.

13 It's very expensive, or the farmer's 

14 not familiar with crop insurance. Or organic 

15 farmers don't need it or they don't want it. And 

16 this comes from the USDA's organic production 

17 surveys that they do every couple of years 

18 through the organic data initiative.

19 Okay. So, let, oh, so here are the 

20 questions. So, I guess I have a couple of 

21 thoughts. And so, when I think of what I've 

22 learned as I've gone through this, and from 
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1 listening to people talk about it is, we have a 

2 couple of groups of producers.

3 We have the people who use crop 

4 insurance now, like Amy. And there are, that 

5 pool of people has, they have very strong ideas 

6 about how to make it work better for them.

7 The diversified operations are in a 

8 different pool. And I think that there are 

9 plenty of them who want to use crop insurance, 

10 but find it doesn't work for them.

11 And even though the whole farm revenue 

12 insurance instrument was created for them, what 

13 you see is people are using it like, the usage 

14 rates are declining over time. And I think 

15 that's problematic. And it also points to the 

16 complexity of the system.

17 And I think that there's a group of 

18 people who think crop insurance isn't suitable

19 for them, but do want to manage their risk. And 

20 I think about as we go ahead, like thinking about 

21 that group of farmers as a separate category.

22 And then, dairy producers. That kind 
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1 of came to me yesterday in the NOC pre meeting. 

2 They need better support as well. And probably 

3 their needs are going to be different from say 

4 diversified operation needs.

5 So, I have a couple of other thoughts 

6 to sort of launch our discussion. So, one is, I 

7 do have a lot of research in progress right now. 

8 And I think at some point this summer I will be 

9 able to share some of that with people.

10 And I have to think about the forum 

11 for that.

12 And the other idea that I had, which I 

13 think might be a little crazy. But I think it 

14 could be really helpful, would be to ask the 

15 Secretary of Agriculture to have USDA create a 

16 farm policy task force that has representatives 

17 from all the different USDA agencies to 

18 understand like how to improve the program 

19 structure and the implementation.

20 So, I think that means you would have 

21 some of the economists from Economic Research 

22 Service, who think about farm policy and how to 
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1 design farm policy from a very broad sense, like 

2 what kind of incentives do you want to set out.

3 And then you also have program 

4 implementers like the Risk Management Agency, or

5 NRCS. Like, how do they actually make those 

6 programs work better?

7 And I guess I would like to see a task 

8 force that worked really hard for like a year and 

9 then wrote a report. And then we could read it 

10 and see what they had to say.

11 But that is just one wild thought that 

12 I had. And what I'd like now to do is turn the 

13 discussion over to the group.

14 MEMBER HUSEMAN: I have a question for 

15 you. If you go back one slide.

16 MEMBER DIMITRI: Let's see. Maybe.

17 MEMBER HUSEMAN: If we were to put 

18 that into a pie chart, do you know what that 

19 would look like?

20 MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes, I do. It's in 

21 the -- yeah. I think maybe half of the people 

22 don't need it or want it. Yeah. 
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1 I didn't put it as a pie chart that's why. 

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Carolyn?

3 MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes. 

4 MEMBER BRUCH: When -- this chart 

5 here, I do have a question. It's too expensive. 

6 What's the rest of the story? Is it because the 

7 coverage is not adequate, or they don't need it 

8 or want it Y the coverage isn't adequate? Do we 

9 have kind of the rest of the story with these 

10 reasons in the survey?

11 MEMBER DIMITRI: No, because I think 

12 when USDA does a survey, they just -- it's like 

13 check, and people check it. And there really 

14 isn't room to add more information.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. 

16 MEMBER DIMITRI: I mean, I actually 

17 haven't looked at the survey instrument, which I 

18 know will be on the USDA website, so that's 

19 something I could do later. 

20 But usually, they ask -- they give you, like, 

21 four reasons, and then you either -- you know, 

22 you just pick one of the four reasons. 
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1 MEMBER PETREY: So if they took out 

2 "don't need or want" it probably -- that just 

3 seems -- that does seem vague that "don't need or 

4 don't want" could attribute to those other 

5 points.

6 MEMBER DIMITRI: Yeah.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. I think there's

8 a lot more to the story there. I guess speaking 

9 --

10 MEMBER DIMITRI: Oh yeah. 

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. So if it's 

12 possible to understand, yeah.

13 From my perspective, you know, I've 

14 had experience as a conventional farmer and 

15 interactions with crop insurance in my area. 

16 I've had those same experiences, interactions, as 

17 an organic farmer, and unfortunately, there are 

18 two different types of scenarios.

19 And I just think, one, we're looking 

20 at recruiting transition -- more transition 

21 producers into our environment. And we have a 

22 lot of -- I call them "figurative risks" when we 
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1 go into producing crops organically. We have 

2 market instability, uncertainty. We -- and I 

3 mean, we do not have transparency with our 

4 markets as conventional producers have, 

5 especially with transition producers. They're 

6 committing now, understanding the market 

7 situation currently, for what they will do in 36 

8 months for their trades. So it's a real 

9 uncertain process there. We have markets that 

10 are -- the handlers are going bankrupt. We have 

11 other figurative storms. 

12 So when I think of literal, actual 

13 storms that occur on our farms as organic 

14 producers, we should have coverage that we can 

15 count on or at least be able to supplement the 

16 gap that was noted by several producers in our 

17 public comments. 

18 Right now -- and I realize crop 

19 insurance can be extremely complicated in terms 

20 of a subject matter, but I think we all are 

21 familiar with insurance whether we have it on our 

22 cars, our vehicles, our houses, health insurance.
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1 When we have an asset worth X dollars 

2 -- let's look at a house. If you have a house, 

3 and you're a conventional producer, that house 

4 can get adequate coverage. 

5 If you are a organic producer that has 

6 a home, you automatically get a discount factor 

7 that's not associated with anything of your own 

8 production history. So I think that really needs 

9 to be looked at for potentially even equity, 

10 where there's a just a real big disadvantage 

11 right from the start when you have production 

12 experience, and all of a sudden you say, "I want

13 to transition," versus somebody that has zero 

14 production experience that says, "I want to be a 

15 conventional farmer."

16 We need to provide support for these 

17 producers. And it goes across the board. 

18 There's several risk-management tools out there, 

19 but we're focusing right now on crop insurance, 

20 and we have to make it function, so the reason 

21 people are not buying it is not because it 

22 doesn't function for them. 
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1 Thank you.

2 MEMBER PETREY: And this might be --

3 or either -- anybody. So you see it's not 

4 working for the farmer and then look at the loss 

5 ratio. It's not working for the government 

6 either. It's not working for anybody. 

7 And so how do we get it to where it is 

8 working? Because I would imagine, it's not 

9 working for the rent farmer because the payout's 

10 not there. But whenever it is used, it's not 

11 working for whoever's paying to. At least, 

12 that's what I was -- excuse me -- comprehending 

13 with that. Does that seem right?

14 MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes. And I think 

15 that's why I question why they have to be in 

16 separate risk pools. Why can't you just throw 

17 all the organic farmers and conventional farmers 

18 together in the same risk pool? 

19 I'm sure there's an actuarial reason 

20 why people wouldn't want to do that, but there 

21 are not that many organic farmers. 

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm just going to 
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1 jump in. 

2 One thing about that actuarial data. 

3 Amy and I had the privilege of speaking to RMA a 

4 couple of times, and a lot of it boils down to 

5 that the data set for organics is somewhat skewed 

6 in that, one, just the data collection is kind of 

7 iffy for getting folks to respond and getting the 

8 good numbers. 

9 But when we look at who is organic, 

10 historically, lots of times, it's just been folks 

11 who are on marginal land. They were at risk of 

12 almost going bankrupt, and so organic saved them. 

13 They're not the banging producers who have the 

14 best yields. 

15 So as organic grows, and as folks like 

16 Amy get in the game, really professional farmers 

17 who are doing excellent work getting incredible 

18 yields, I think there's going to be a lot more 

19 data to support that it is less of a risk.

20 Nate. 

21 MEMBER LEWIS: I'm sort of thinking 

22 back on my advocacy days in bringing organic 
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1 farmers to D.C. and setting up meetings with RMA 

2 and found them to be actually fairly productive. 

3 I think for the farmers, they remain 

4 frustrated, but we were able to get incremental 

5 change from RMA when we sat down, explained the 

6 problem very clearly, identified some data that 

7 they needed to adjust their policies. But those 

8 were successful because we heard from people what 

9 the specific issues were, and we got them in the 

10 room. 

11 I think we have a unique opportunity 

12 here to advise the Secretary on all sorts of 

13 risk-mitigation measures that organic farmers 

14 need. And we can play a critical role as the 

15 clearinghouse for that.

16 So we're in a Farm Bill cycle. The 

17 Farm Bill's going to pass at some point, and then 

18 USDA will have the chore of implementing it. If 

19 they have a go-to place for the list of issues 

20 that are preventing organic farmers from 

21 accessing it, whether it's EPH in western Kansas 

22 or T-yields in Michigan, then they can respond to 
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1 us or those farmers with some data requests. 

2 And I think that they actually want to 

3 change to sell more policies. That tends to be 

4 their goal. I don't particularly want to do 

5 RMA's job for them right here. But I think that 

6 may be a good way to kind of think about how we 

7 approach it. 

8 But I also was compelled by Roland's 

9 comment this morning, which was that risk 

10 management for a small, diversified operator in 

11 Georgia may look like row cover. And so I want 

12 to think about risk management in a broader 

13 category that USA has a suite of programs, and 

14 they all -- not all of them -- many of them can 

15 be thought of as risk management depending on the 

16 scope and scale of the operation. 

17 So that may be any context within 

18 which we look at a whole host of USDA programs 

19 that we then can provide comments to the 

20 Secretary on how best to suit -- to curate those 

21 programs to reduce risk for organic producers 

22 regardless of scale, location. 
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1 Some folks are going to want crop 

2 insurance. Other folks are going to want 

3 technical assistance through NRCS, whatever the 

4 issue may be. So that may just be a framework 

5 within which we can continue the conversation and 

6 turn it into a productive output that the USDA's 

7 going to listen to. 

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I just wanted to 

9 elevate one thing you said there, Nate. From 

10 your experience working on Farm Bill-related crop 

11 insurance changes for organic, could you -- do 

12 you have a little bit of the history on the 

13 contract price addendum? 

14 MEMBER LEWIS: Yeah, I'll have to sort 

15 of dust off those cobwebs. My interactions with 

16 RMA were, like, among the first things I tried to 

17 forget, I have to tell you. 

18 But, no, the contract prices in them, 

19 I think, was a tool that they put out recognizing 

20 that their -- particularly inorganic -- many of 

21 the crops are contracted for or contracted so 

22 folks aren't looking for what the price is on the 
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1 Chicago Board for blue corn for corn chips or 

2 whatever. I don't know exactly what the thing 

3 was. And also folks are reluctant to share too 

4 publicly what those contract prices are because 

5 those are private business dealings. 

6 So RMA was able to sort of bridge that 

7 gap where enough contracts were given to them in 

8 privacy, in confidentiality, that they were able 

9 to adjust the caps that they had on the contract 

10 price addendum to either create a whole new price 

11 selection for a particular variation of a crop or 

12 to increase the cap on how much higher than the 

13 corresponding commodity. 

14 So in the case of blue corn, if there 

15 isn't a blue corn price selection, which I think 

16 there is now, but it would -- you could be up to 

17 250 percent of the value of yellow corn or 

18 something like that. 

19 But it was about, again, getting the 

20 right people in the room and getting them all the 

21 right information so that they could no longer go 

22 back and say, "actuarially sound," which was, you 
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1 know, that's what they always say. So asking 

2 them, "Well, what do you need to be actuarially 

3 sound and do what we want you to do?" and then 

4 figuring out, you know, how do you assemble that 

5 data. 

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the only 

7 reason I bring that up is I think both of our 

8 calls with RMA were extremely productive, Amy and 

9 I, and that it really does seem like their 

10 inclination is to be very curious as to how to 

11 help organics do better and move forward. 

12 And I think, just as evidence, the 

13 contract price addendum is the coolest thing that 

14 I feel is unique to organic. If you don't know 

15 about it, definitely do a little research. It is 

16 worth the read because it is unique to organic 

17 that we are able to protest ourselves against a 

18 contract that does not extend over to 

19 conventional. And so it's one thing that is 

20 actually because of work like this document, the 

21 RMA is able to make products that are really 

22 uniquely good for us. So I both applaud Carolyn 
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1 and Amy for the work that has tangible impacts on 

2 our communities.

3 MEMBER BRUCH: And one thing to add 

4 about contract price addendum, it's not only for 

5 organic producers. It's also for transition 

6 producers too, so that -- I agree. That's one 

7 recommendation that does provide extreme benefit 

8 to our community.

9 And I'm really thankful for the list 

10 that different commenters provided us because 

11 there are some real detailed ways that we can 

12 look to try to improve things. 

13 But, Nate, I also agree with your 

14 information. We need to aggregate voices and 

15 look at multiple methods of risk management here. 

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian. 

17 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. I spoke just 

18 last week with an insurance agent who was at a 

19 meeting, and I was just trying to get 

20 information. And I was really surprised that in 

21 the whole FARM program, she said that CSAs could 

22 not be covered because the record-keeping 
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1 requirements just did not fit with the CSA model. 

2 And so that, certainly, is something that -- a 

3 barrier that could be probably pretty easily 

4 overcome. 

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's one good 

6 form. We just need one good form to fix that 

7 problem. 

8 Dilip. 

9 MEMBER NANDWANI: One of the point you 

10 mentioned, Carolyn, about high ag subsidies for 

11 conventional farmers think I read that. Is there 

12 any difference in the subsidies for organic 

13 farmer? Does it make difference?

14 And the second point, I think, is it 

15 acreage because organic farmer, they may have a 

16 less ag rate, and that may result in -- it makes 

17 too expensive for them?

18 MEMBER DIMITRI: I'm going to kick 

19 those questions over to Amy, who has crop 

20 insurance on conventional and organic land --

21 crops.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Can you repeat the 
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1 question, Dilip, please?

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Well, I was saying 

3 that in one of the points she mentioned in the 

4 slide that the highest subsidies for conventional 

5 farmers. So is there any difference in the 

6 subsidies for organic and -- organic farmers and 

7 conventional or they're applicable to the same 

8 subsidies to the organic and conventional. Does 

9 it make difference?

10 And the second was the acreage, also. 

11 Too expensive, is it because organic farmers, 

12 they have less at creating that could be one 

13 reason because going for too expensive for them 

14 -- or to afford the crop insurance.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Well, and I can 

16 just speak to this in my area. And this relates 

17 to coverage, subsidies, and your history. And 

18 this was an example. 

19 One of the public commenters 

20 mentioned, the oral commenters, it seems like --

21 at least in my general growing area, which is an 

22 area that's pretty traditional to grow corn and 
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1 soybeans -- there is a discount factor that's 

2 provided to transition producers. In my county, 

3 it's 65 percent. So if I transition, I get a 

4 lower base-level evaluation, my T-yield. It'll 

5 be 65 percent of a conventional producer. 

6 So, right off the bat, I am starting 

7 with less coverage, even though I do have 

8 experience because my conventional experience 

9 does not relate at all to transition. 

10 So I think that getting individualized 

11 -- and I know this is challenging -- but producer 

12 history to factor in does set -- I think it 

13 reduced risk for RMA because T-yield, your 

14 transition yields that set the baseline of 

15 insurance if you don't have practice history, it 

16 can be aspirational for some in different growing 

17 areas that aren't used to growing corn. These 

18 yields can look aspirational, and that's where 

19 you're getting high payouts, high ratio payouts 

20 that don't make sense for RMA. 

21 And in my area, where the base-level 

22 yields that I get assigned are just incredibly 
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1 depressed from the output that I can produce in 

2 my field. So I'm in a case where I'm 

3 self-insuring. It feels like I'm farming in 

4 Brazil without crop insurance, essentially. Even 

5 though I am one of those members that purchases 

6 crop insurance, I don't see the benefit if I have 

7 a climatic event for the crop insurance to cover 

8 any amount of my losses. So what I'm investing 

9 out of that crop all comes out of my back pocket. 

10 Even if I wanted a coverage level, I'm not able 

11 to get it, essentially. So it's -- I mean, 

12 catastrophic insurance at best. 

13 So the subsidies are slightly 

14 different -- getting back to your question --

15 based on the amount of dollars in coverage that 

16 we can get. So there is a slight scale 

17 difference on the subsidies. 

18 And then the expense of it -- there 

19 was a -- one of the survey questions asked for 

20 the cost of it. I, in general, and with TOGA, 

21 which is one of the organic initiatives for 

22 transition, it provides us a discount on 
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1 insurance. I'm not finding that the cost is 

2 necessarily the issue. It's the coverage that's 

3 the issue. 

4 So even though the price for my 

5 coverage is pretty nominal, it's actually really 

6 expensive because I'm not getting anything for 

7 the dollars that I'm spending. So it's just kind 

8 of interpretation of the word expense, 

9 interpretation of the word subsidy. It really --

10 if you're not getting adequate coverage, then it 

11 definitely is an expensive product. 

12 Did that answer your question?

13 MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes. Thanks for 

14 comprehensive answer.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: It can get a little 

16 complicated. I try to not get too much in the 

17 weeds but thank you.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah, Logan, go 

19 ahead.

20 MEMBER PETREY: Okay. So do you 

21 expect whenever you have crop insurance, I guess, 

22 more in the conventional setting, do you expect 
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1 to use it almost every -- like, is there going to 

2 be a use of it? 

3 Like, car insurance -- I'm probably 

4 not going to get my bang out of it, but I hope 

5 not. You know? I hope I don't get in a wreck 

6 and have to use it, but -- and so when you're 

7 saying you're not -- it's not justifying that you 

8 spent? How often do farmers normally see that 

9 payout?

10 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. I mean, that's 

11 just a matter of the weather. 

12 In my area with irrigation, I'm not 

13 subject to drought conditions, necessarily. I 

14 have to still be a good steward of my water 

15 resources, but drought isn't a peril that I have 

16 to face compared to a lot of the country. So, in 

17 general, my only risk factor with insurance is if 

18 it's going to hail or not and to the level extent 

19 of damage I might have on my crop. 

20 If I have, let's say, 30 percent crop 

21 damage, my federal crop policy will not cover any 

22 of that damage because I'm over yielding where 
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1 the trigger comes into play. So, therefore, I 

2 consider it expensive because it doesn't provide 

3 me any value. The 30 percent loss came right out 

4 of my pocket even if I wanted to insure my crop 

5 with federal crop. 

6 Where if I was a conventional 

7 producer, my history, my yield history, would 

8 have provided me an insurance payout if I had 30 

9 percent damage because I would have -- I would 

10 have impacted the trigger level, the level of 

11 support, my safety net. 

12 So I don't farm for insurance at all, 

13 but I do like to do risk management because 

14 that's one of the, I think, regenerative aspects 

15 of being an organic farmer and the legacy factor. 

16 I have to make sure my farms are going to be in 

17 business next year and factors, climatic factors, 

18 outside of my control. I should be able to 

19 engage policies that are available to 

20 conventional producers that are going to be 

21 adequate for my organic farm.

22 MEMBER PETREY: Right. And I'm sure 
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1 banks like it, too, to make sure they're going to 

2 get some money back. 

3 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah.

4 MEMBER PETREY: And with the 

5 historical yields, what I was learning from some 

6 of the commenters, oral commenters, is that it 

7 has to be on that field or that farm year after 

8 year. And I mean, that does not fit in the 

9 organic. 

10 So, like, putting them in the same 

11 pool, I understand on the money side, but as far

12 as the requirements, I think that that needs to 

13 be tailored to organics because that will take a 

14 decade to get sufficient information or data 

15 yield if they base it on that. 

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, absolutely. There 

17 is one positive change that did occur. So if you 

18 are -- if your farms, if you're banking on a new 

19 transition farm in your particular county, you're 

20 able to move over your yield history. 

21 So if you have one transition farm in 

22 the county, and you've had it a couple of years, 
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1 you will use that new yield history to then feed 

2 into the four numbers of the transition yield 

3 that you're given. So you already start 

4 replacing. But when you're in transition only 36 

5 months, it's really, really hard to build up that 

6 APH. 

7 And then, again, the clock starts over 

8 when you're organic, so I think there's a real --

9 yeah -- challenge there for building that yield 

10 history with our crop rotations.

11 MEMBER TURNER: I'm just going to keep 

12 the Amy panel going. I'm going to keep asking 

13 Amy questions. 

14 Amy, just totally off-topic. Well, a 

15 little bit off-topic. But I'm curious if you --

16 just thinking about insurance -- do you find that 

17 there's some built-in resilience to organic --

18 your organic acreage compared to conventional? 

19 And sort of how do you -- how does that factor 

20 into some of these decisions?

21 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. That's a good, 

22 good point as well. And I do believe organic 
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1 systems do have a higher level of resiliency, 

2 especially when it comes to drought. 

3 Building -- increasing our soil 

4 water-holding capacity is really important, and 

5 with increased organic matter, we do have 

6 increased water-holding capacity, so I think 

7 fighting drought, we do have some additional 

8 resiliency there.

9 In terms of hail, that kind of is a 

10 nondiscriminatory, I think, type peril. It 

11 impacts, I think, everybody the same. Our tools 

12 to recover are definitely different than what a 

13 conventional producer has.

14 I do believe, also, wind is a big 

15 factor. So the resiliency, I think, of the 

16 nutritional level in our soils does make more 

17 resilient crops to handle wind pressure. So I 

18 think it just depends on the peril, but there is 

19 a competitive advantage there. 

20 MEMBER LEWIS: I think I'll just add a 

21 comment that regardless of a producer's ability 

22 to sort of self-insure through multiple cropping, 
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1 resiliency, row cover, whatever that may be, 

2 there's oftentimes a financial reality that you 

3 can't get your operating loan without crop 

4 insurance regardless of whether it actually 

5 covers your crop or not. 

6 So in terms of sort of the growing the 

7 acres of concept, there are a lot of folks who 

8 are going, "Well, I don't have a choice to not 

9 get crop insurance," and so, I think, working to 

10 making it a more functional product. I'm not 

11 advocating -- I don't like the insurance industry 

12 in general, but it is a necessary element for a 

13 lot of conventional financing.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. There is one 

15 other topic I wanted to discuss was diversity. 

16 That comment is built into the document quite a 

17 bit, and there was a lot of comments on that. 

18 I think diversity needs to be defined 

19 and interpreted. I actually would love to have 

20 more diversity on my farm. But again, for risk 

21 management purposes, I try -- I don't do this 

22 always -- but I try to plant crops that have 
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1 insurable attributes. So I am limited extremely 

2 on what crops I can grow if I follow that 

3 philosophy. 

4 I have one legume that is insurable. 

5 The others that I plant, I have zero coverage on. 

6 They're important crops, but I think as we're 

7 looking to build markets for rotational crops, I 

8 think I mentioned it in my opening comments, too, 

9 that -- or my opening question to Jenny --

10 hand-in-hand we have to have RMA as a partner in 

11 that. 

12 What's normal in terms of crop 

13 rotation for a conventional producer is different 

14 than what's normal for a crop rotation for

15 organic producers, and crops that make sense, we 

16 need to be able to have insurance for those. 

17 There is a process currently to be 

18 able to get insurance. It's called a written 

19 agreement. I've gone through them. It takes --

20 usually, you're three years of trying that crop 

21 to provide to RMA that history. They often --

22 it's kind of the chicken and the egg. They often 
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1 say, "Well, we haven't had too many requests in 

2 that category, therefore, we can't provide 

3 blanket coverage in that category." And farmers

4 don't necessarily always want to request 

5 insurance that they're not going to be granted, 

6 or it will be subpar. 

7 So I think diversity could increase, 

8 but it's also going to take not only markets to 

9 increase our diversity but also some crop 

10 insurance on things that make sense.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, on written 

12 agreements, it seems like there's a real 

13 opportunity for either universities or other 

14 folks may be in more the research space to start 

15 growing every imaginable crop immediately on 

16 their farms, reporting it to RMA so that we can 

17 get actuarial data across every county.

18 And so for me, I have to do a written 

19 agreement on flax. And flax is a crop that's 

20 great for my system, really great for my markets, 

21 great for my soil, but no one else grows it, so I 

22 have to do a written agreement. 
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1 And I'm just thinking how quickly can 

2 we as a community come up with solutions to try 

3 to figure out what crops could we ever dream of 

4 growing in a county and just start growing them 

5 to get that three years and to get sufficient 

6 acreage to make it so you can get blanket 

7 coverage. And that seems something that's very 

8 actionable in our community either through 

9 universities or just through more strategic 

10 planting so that we plant enough acres to start 

11 getting actuarial recognition from RMA for every 

12 crop. 

13 Would you agree with that?

14 MEMBER BRUCH: 100 percent. I think 

15 this is just a big community effort. We need to 

16 be all talking the same language. It's a 

17 complicated issue, but I do think we can move the 

18 needle. 

19 We've seen some changes that have been 

20 very positive that we highlighted here. And we 

21 need to articulate a list of additional items 

22 that can provide similar type coverage when we 
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1 are transitioning or when we are organic 

2 producers.

3 MEMBER DIMITRI: I'm kind of curious 

4 what people think about a USDA Task Force to put 

5 some of their highly specialized knowledge to 

6 this topic, the broader topic of farm programs 

7 for organic farmers, excluding cost share. 

8 MEMBER BRUCH: I love Task Force. I 

9 think they're great. We need to have 

10 cross-functional people on the team, though. We 

11 need to be able to look at this through farmer's 

12 eyes, through RMA's eyes because it has to work 

13 for both. It can't just be one benefits and not 

14 the other, so we need those two folks in the 

15 equation. 

16 We need adjusters in the equation, the 

17 insurance adjusters that visit our fields that 

18 maybe don't have the knowledge on organic 

19 production and the ins and outs of it. And then 

20 we need agents, also, in that category. 

21 So I would think all four of those 

22 representatives are really important with Task 
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1 Force, and I'm all in favor of that.

2 MEMBER DIMITRI: One of my personal 

3 pet peeves is -- like, I understand how farm 

4 programs have evolved over time, but it just 

5 seems that maybe organic farmers need something a 

6 little bit different than what exists for 

7 conventional farmers and their -- I don't know. 

8 I guess I would like to see some 

9 creativity in thinking about how to better meet 

10 the needs of organic farmers rather than tweaking 

11 these systems that obviously every time this 

12 happens the tweaks are not really very -- I don't 

13 want to say they're not effective, but they don't 

14 really take care of what is needed. 

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla.

16 MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. So right now the 

17 ACA, the Accredited Certifiers Association, has a 

18 working group going on about assessing resources 

19 for government programs to help producers better 

20 utilize those programs. 

21 And so some things that are being --

22 so anyway, I wonder if that's a similar idea as 
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1 this task force that's already sort of underway, 

2 and we could see what the deliverables are from 

3 that working group. 

4 Some things that are being discussed 

5 are everybody's favorite topic, the Common LSP, 

6 or Universal LSP, as well as just how to 

7 streamline resources or -- anyways, there's lots 

8 of ideas floating around, and -- I don't know. 

9 Maybe we could start there, and if that doesn't 

10 give us what we are looking for, we can pursue 

11 this other idea. 

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions on 

13 crop insurance? Looking at the discussion 

14 document, so we've got more of this coming. All 

15 right. 

16 MEMBER BRUCH: All right. Thank you, 

17 Carolyn, so much for leading this very important 

18 topic. Looking forward to continuing the 

19 conversation. 

20 Any final comments?

21 MEMBER DIMITRI: I just want to thank

22 you for all of your wonderful crop insurance 
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1 experience, yours and Nate's, to just make my 

2 hair straight -- show how important this is. 

3 MEMBER BRUCH: Teamwork.

4 Okay. Well, moving on. This is our 

5 third work agenda item to tackle. And this is on 

6 enforcement oversight to deter fraud.

7 Carolyn, can you pass down the 

8 clicker?

9 Okay. All right. And I want to thank 

10 members of the Board for providing me farm 

11 pictures for this presentation. It's fun to kind 

12 of show and tell some of our ag pictures, so 

13 enjoy that with the content.

14 And this document is a result of a 

15 collaborative effort, both on our subcommittee 

16 and as well with my counterpart here, the Chair, 

17 Nate. So feel free to jump in. 

18 I just have a few slides that kind of 

19 organize the discussion document. We'll get into 

20 public comments, and then we'll open it up for 

21 full-board discussion.

22 So this particular topic on oversight 
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1 improvements to deter fraud is relating to 

2 consistent location information.

3 So for certified operations, this is 

4 our current state. The challenge is location 

5 information must be more consistently recorded 

6 and managed across certifiers. The solution 

7 consistent location identification for all 

8 certified operations domestically and 

9 internationally to report the location 

10 information by -- we mention in the document --

11 GPS coordinates was an example. 

12 So, in summary, we're basically 

13 building on the basic conditions. In the fall, 

14 the NOSB recommended that we record certified 

15 acres on organic certificates. Now we're 

16 building on that. Now we're saying we actually 

17 need to know by a field-level or parcel-level 

18 where these acres are located. So they kind of 

19 dovetail together.

20 It's a two-pronged approach, and we're 

21 really looking in the goals of all of our 

22 oversight to deter fraud. Documents are based on 
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1 the consistency aspect. In this case, we are 

2 recommending that certifiers are deploying the 

3 same approach, and if that is done, inspectors 

4 can spend more time fighting the fraud instead of 

5 finding the farm. 

6 And then on enforcement, we are --

7 this document can provide increased robustness of 

8 crosschecking among certifiers, and that's both 

9 based on reconciling land use affidavits and 

10 managing revoked operations. It can facilitate 

11 more effective unannounced inspections, finding 

12 the certified operation without the inspector but 

13 by following the guidelines of unannounced 

14 inspections that was pointed out by public 

15 comments. We still need to be following those. 

16 And then conduct aggregated analysis 

17 of high-risk regions or countries. And this can 

18 be possible when there's a common language about 

19 the location of a certified operation.

20 So getting into the discussion 

21 document itself, it supports SOE implementation 

22 with crosschecking, unannounced inspections, and 
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1 verification. 

2 The public comments, "Our belief is 

3 it's low burden." And there are some certifier 

4 comments that mentioned the fact that it was low 

5 burden just because it is a one-time collection. 

6 "Geolocations do not move around." 

7 In scope, for this discussion document 

8 is not only fields but production units with 

9 grower groups handling locations, facilities, 

10 importers, brokers, et cetera, so all certified 

11 operations is what we're looking at. 

12 And through public comments, we wanted 

13 to provide some clarity. One, we're not 

14 requiring those who do not use technology to use 

15 technology with this discussion document. We're 

16 not indicating annually where you plant each crop 

17 and measuring the nearest feet. This is just 

18 looking at the field or parcel identification. 

19 Geocoordinates, uncertified operations should not 

20 move around. 

21 Privacy, we're not intending that this 

22 information be public facing. That was another 
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1 concern by some of the written comments. We're 

2 not indicating that this information be public. 

3 Just for certifiers to utilize. 

4 And then we still -- in the 

5 discussion, we need to articulate a little bit 

6 more. There was confusion around "field" and 

7 "parcel" and just the nomenclature around that. 

8 So getting into public comments, we 

9 had great participation in public comments, and 

10 it was really from a variety of different members 

11 of our community. Seven certifiers, one 

12 inspector group -- or one inspector plus one 

13 inspector group supported this. Several farmers, 

14 including two from the Plains community, 

15 expressed favor in this discussion document. Two 

16 activist groups and three advocacy groups all 

17 supported this. 

18 There are three commenters that listed 

19 limited support. However, I hope that clarity 

20 that we provided would garner a little bit more 

21 support from those groups.

22 In general, with public comments, the 
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1 what of this discussion document seemed to be 

2 pretty unanimous. It was more or less the how. 

3 How are we going to accomplish this? And that's 

4 what I also look forward to discussing in this 

5 group. 

6 There were great solutions, great 

7 no-tax solutions, that were discussed such as 

8 approved parcel number or the tax ID, legal 

9 addresses, maps. So basically, trying to get a 

10 very similar language so we can manage the data 

11 more effectively and do these cross checks 

12 amongst certifiers, again, speaking the same 

13 language.

14 It was mentioned about FSA and RMA use 

15 a similar system. And we did look at this in our 

16 subcommittee. However, not all producers are 

17 doing those farm programs, FSA or RMA, and it 

18 isn't necessarily used internationally. So we 

19 were looking for both a system that could work 

20 domestically as well as internationally.

21 So that's a brief summary on public 

22 comments. I really appreciate the ones that we 
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1 received.

2 And then one thing to highlight in 

3 public comments provided some of the Stata as 

4 well as data that was in our discussion document 

5 of the geocoordinates in practice. There are 

6 several groups. 

7 We want to be the gold standard for 

8 doing transparency and verification, and some 

9 certifiers are putting the geocoordinates into 

10 practice. We learned that the Mexican organic 

11 standard requires this from every field-level 

12 operation. Europe, some aspects of grower groups 

13 within the European community, this is a 

14 requirement for them to understand where the 

15 grower groups are located. 

16 It was mentioned through public 

17 comments about FDA and their new Food 

18 Traceability Rule that some crops and products 

19 will have further scrutiny on the traceability 

20 and transparency there. 

21 And then RMA for organic farms 

22 actually required geocoordinates and maps showing 
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1 our borders and et cetera. That is a requirement 

2 of RMA for our organic producers.

3 And now I just want to turn it over to 

4 the Board for discussion. We do have two 

5 recommendations within this discussion document. 

6

7 So one about consistency just of how 

8 we're communicating location information. And 

9 the second one is about land affidavits that they 

10 can be reconciled with GPS-type location 

11 information as well, so you have that complete 

12 tracking history of when a farm comes online to 

13 if that same farm switches hands. To other 

14 members in our community, that whole history 

15 would be available.

16 So, with that, Nate, I want to turn it 

17 over to you first. Do you have anything to add 

18 before we open it up?

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Can I get the 

20 clicker real quick? Just going to go through a 

21 couple of these things in the context of public 

22 comments.
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1 Let's skip forward.

2 In my head, this is a big beautiful 

3 nothing burger. And I'm always so surprised how 

4 you grillers can really make something out of 

5 what I perceived to really be nothing. And so I 

6 wanted to go over that a little bit.

7 I appreciate all the groups who 

8 represented farmers. It was really nice, but 

9 there is a certain piece that I would say if I 

10 were hunting through those comments, and I were 

11 not in the organic community, I would be like, 

12 "It doesn't sound like you guys have any control 

13 over the system at all," based on the comments. 

14 For example, when we say that -- in 

15 one of the comments we saw that "Fields might 

16 move around, and we might switch in and out of 

17 organic." Not a great look big picture. And so 

18 just thinking about -- and this is where I think 

19 Amy and I have tried to really say, "Call us, 

20 folks." Like, pick up the phone, email us if you 

21 have that fixable of a question. 

22 We are so excited to help you suss 
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1 that piece out because it took all the way 

2 through almost two days of comments for us to 

3 talk to the member of the Plains community who 

4 said for clarification, he said, "Field being 

5 something a little different to us, but parcel 

6 totally makes sense." 

7 And there was a lot of talk about 

8 religious persecution, almost saying that we 

9 weren't going to be accepting or paying attention 

10 to the needs of the Plains community. And 

11 hearing from the Plains community directly, it 

12 was a very quick fix for that sort of language. 

13 So the faster we can do that -- and we do. I 

14 mean, we really encourage you to contact us with 

15 those sort of questions because it was -- it got 

16 very complicated very quickly when it was a 

17 one-word correction. 

18 Now, what that word is is still kind 

19 of up in the air because as we were talking to 

20 our certifier, trying to describe or find a word 

21 that is applicable to the world of a unit of land 

22 that is sort of legally describable is going to 
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1 be unique. And I'm glad it's a discussion 

2 document because we need your all's input on how 

3 we can find that right word or that set of terms. 

4 And so we look to having the same word a county 

5 in Ohio or a county or a province in Ukraine, we 

6 want to try to figure out what is that word that 

7 captures what we're talking about. 

8 And what we're talking about is a 

9 legal tax descriptor, basically. What is that 

10 identification that would live with that property 

11 when you go to buy it, or you go to sell it 

12 that's not going to change until you legally 

13 subdivide it? That's what we're after. 

14 And a big inspiration for this is that 

15 certifiers, if they have a question about a field 

16 that's been revoked or a producer that's been 

17 revoked, and they want to call each other, right 

18 now, you basically have to talk in pictures. 

19 You're like, "This is a picture of the field and 

20 its location. This is generally where it is." 

21 There's not a good vernacular that's consistent 

22 across certifiers saying, "This is a legal 
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1 description. Is so-and-so certifying this with 

2 you right now? He sprayed it out last year, and 

3 so we have some concerns." That's the point of 

4 this. 

5 And I am eager for happy hour tomorrow 

6 for you all to explain to me how we can write 

7 better so that we can save a ton of time 

8 discussing these things that, in my head, are 

9 very simple.

10 So as we think about going forward, 

11 that request remains. How do we come up with the 

12 right terminology to describe these units of land 

13 so that we can make a recommendation that 

14 captures the globe? And it might be a set of 

15 terms. It might be one term that is more 

16 comprehensive, but that's what we're on the hunt 

17 for. We haven't quite come up with it yet. 

18 This is in no way -- no way -- and has 

19 never been -- and this is also something that I'd 

20 really love everyone's input on how to write 

21 better -- a public-facing piece of data. No 

22 public gets to see what these parcel numbers are. 
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1

2 This is for certifiers and to help 

3 certifiers become consistent across each other. 

4 And so how we can make that more clear -- because 

5 I thought that was clear in the document -- we'd 

6 love y'all's input. 

7 In talking about facilitating 

8 unannounced inspections or cross-checking --

9 cross-checking is a term that we're getting a lot 

10 of action with in SOE. And so how do certifiers 

11 talk to each other more effectively to help bust 

12 fraud? 

13 And so as we just said with 

14 cross-checks, we're going to be able to have a 

15 common language. Is this field, this identifier, 

16 something that you've dealt with, certified or 

17 certifier, to try to figure out what fields are 

18 getting double certified, what fields are coming 

19 back into organic production a year after being 

20 sprayed, how can we get it, so we have a way for 

21 certifiers to better cooperate with each other 

22 that goes beyond just sharing hand-drawn maps or 
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1 legal descriptions?

2 One note on legal descriptions versus 

3 addresses. And I apologize, Madam, I'm going a 

4 little long, but I'm almost finished up. When 

5 representing stakeholders -- and I say this with 

6 all due respect -- understanding what is -- what 

7 the sort of ground-truthing comments. 

8 So we had a comment that said, 

9 "Doesn't every field have an address?" No. 

10 Every field has a legal description. Houses have 

11 addresses. And so try to, as best as we can, to 

12 set a common denominator for what we're talking 

13 about when we're talking about this. 

14 Again, encourage your feedback on how 

15 we can write better because I was surprised that 

16 the feedback that we got that it was just 

17 confusion about what we're talking about. So 

18 possibly more background information can be on us 

19 to provide. 

20 But it seemed like there was a lot of 

21 opinions in public comments addressing this topic 

22 that did not necessarily -- that we could have 
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1 probably brushed over with some better background 

2 information. So that's on us. 

3 But to facilitate more unannounced 

4 inspections, if I'm an inspector, and I have --

5 we've received a complaint about a field, right 

6 now I'm mostly going to have to go ask that 

7 operator, "Where is this field?" There's not a 

8 consistent way for a certifier to really know 

9 exactly where that field is. 

10 Now, again, legal description, we 

11 don't need to go to the middle. We just need to 

12 know what that legal description is because you 

13 can put that legal description into any county, 

14 ArcGIS, into any Google Maps, and we'll be able 

15 to go see it. So it just allows us a little bit 

16 of a backstop, so we're not just being led around 

17 by the nose by a producer who may not be 

18 following the rules.

19 And that's all I've got. I hand it 

20 off to the rest of the Board. 

21 Logan.

22 MEMBER PETREY: I have kind of a funny 
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1 comment as far as the terminology and how it can 

2 differ across growing regions. And this is not 

3 pertaining to this.

4 But so, in probably most of the world, 

5 when you say "plow" that is to, like, bottom 

6 plow. Okay. Well, in the southeast sometimes we 

7 think that just means "cultivate." I don't know 

8 how that got messed up. 

9 And so we work with California 

10 companies in southeast, and so we've had some 

11 California folks call over to the Southeast 

12 growers and say, "How are your carrots looking?" 

13 It's like, "Look great. We're plowing them." 

14 And they're like, "Why are you plowing 

15 them? You're flipping them over, and we're not 

16 going to have carrots?" 

17 And it can be a major -- I mean, it 

18 can be a bad miscommunication. Let's just say 

19 that. So I completely understand. I can see how 

20 people can get flustered with that, but it does 

21 happen in the farming. It's actually a joke a 

22 lot of times when we see it from the West Coast 
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1 to the East Coast how different our language is. 

2 So it can be a big difference.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

4 that. Yes, absolutely. 

5 We try to teach organic inspectors how 

6 to get a grip on sort of colloquialisms, and it's 

7 tricky. I mean, a lot of words for a lot of 

8 different things, which is why we invite all fill 

9 the bucket with what we should be calling these 

10 units so that we can try to get it right across 

11 the country and across the world. 

12 Other thoughts?

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Oh, I was just going to 

14 add with that, Logan, I think it's interesting. 

15 We have that challenge a little bit here. 

16 But listening to the oral comments, 

17 there was one certifier that mentioned certifying 

18 operations overseas, and he said GPS is the 

19 common language overseas, so I thought that was 

20 interesting. 

21 It's interesting to understand that 

22 Mexico actually deploys this, and that's a 
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1 requirement of their organic program for the 

2 GPS-type coordinates. 

3 In doing the research to put in our 

4 document, I thought it was interesting because 

5 the U.S. Space Force is actually the ones that 

6 uphold GPS coordinates. And our tax dollars go 

7 to supporting GPS systems and that it can be a 

8 system that's accessed internationally. 

9 So I think, to me, solving it 

10 internationally is probably going to be easier 

11 maybe than solving it domestically. But I know 

12 we can do it, so thank you. 

13 MEMBER HUSEMAN: It just sounds like 

14 maybe we need a glossary of terms when we put 

15 together something.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I love it. Yes.

17 Kyla.

18 MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. So I was going 

19 to just sort of say the same thing as what Kim 

20 just said is whatever word you land on just 

21 provide a definition because the definition that 

22 is in the regs currently is "field." There's no 
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1 definition of parcel. There's no definition of 

2 anything else besides field, so if we're going to 

3 land on a different word, I would recommend a 

4 definition. 

5 And then the other thing that I caught 

6 in the comments, which I'm curious to hear others 

7 take on is, you know, Amy, you were talking about 

8 consistency, and there were some commenters from 

9 certifiers about being able to utilize more than 

10 one tool. And so I wonder how we can do both, 

11 how we can be consistent but not get too narrow 

12 that then the how doesn't work. 

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. And I'm glad you 

14 called that out because I think, definitely, we 

15 want to be accommodating to multiple means for 

16 the end result. And what's interesting is parcel 

17 identification, legal address, or GPS can all get 

18 us to where we need to go, street address, 

19 potentially, if there's a street address 

20 associated with it. 

21 What's interesting, though, a lot of 

22 people confuse street address with mailing 
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1 address. So mailing address -- and I used to 

2 have one of those. That was kind of pre-911-type 

3 updates on our address is Route 2, Box 176 --

4 that will not yield a GPS coordinate at the end 

5 of the day. It will not yield the 

6 field-level-type information. So I do think that 

7 there are multiple ways. 

8 And some certifiers listed the 

9 different ways they're doing this. I think GPS 

10 is more universally, internationally accepted, 

11 but I do think that there are a few different 

12 ways to ultimately lead to a GPS coordinate.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate.

14 MEMBER LEWIS: Just quickly to add on 

15 to Kyla's comment. Field is the defined term, 

16 but the land requirements do include farm parcel 

17 as a -- it's field or farm parcel to have the 

18 following requirements, so that may be some 

19 language to choose from and utilize just to keep 

20 consistency with the regulations.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Perfect. Any other 
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1 general thoughts?

2 I think I feel really good with 

3 providing clarity on the field, parcel. I think 

4 that was really helpful and will provide the 

5 community with good feedback.

6 Are there any other thoughts on the 

7 document itself?

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One thought on the 

9 burden question. Just a little background. I 

10 love Kyla's take on this. 

11 In bringing on fields, there's usually 

12 a few different ways to do it. You might get it 

13 at the application period in the very beginning. 

14 Get a land application. It might be in the 

15 middle of the season that they submit a new land 

16 application. 

17 We have an annual inspection for all 

18 producers, but we oftentimes have spot 

19 inspections for a season over where staffers or 

20 independent contractors just do a quick check up 

21 on something in the field. 

22 So I was again interested in how much 
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1 was made of the concern that we would put Amish 

2 inspectors out of work with this possible tech 

3 integration. 

4 And this is where I was hoping to hear 

5 more from more certifiers because it is again 

6 very doable. Lots of infrastructure, if that 

7 annual inspection, it doesn't get done and 

8 there's a spot inspection afterwards by possibly 

9 someone who does have GPS accessibility. 

10 Trying to gear up for how we tackle 

11 things like this as a community seems like, 

12 again, this was fairly low-hanging fruit, so 

13 figuring out how we get more folks with big ideas 

14 for solutions would just be a request I make to 

15 our community as we look to future examples of 

16 running through this. 

17 And I think it's problem -- the 

18 problem is we don't hear from everybody. We 

19 don't hear from all 74 certifiers on how they 

20 would maybe go about tackling this, but trying to 

21 come up with solutions for us so that we can 

22 parse them out as well would be great.
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1 (Off-microphone comments.)

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: You don't have to.

3 MEMBER SMITH: I like how you say I'm 

4 going to ask a question and then you just make a 

5 bunch of statements.

6 So yeah. A couple of things that I 

7 was thinking of is that inspection scheduling is 

8 complicated, right? There's a lot of things that 

9 go into it to try to match up a qualified 

10 inspector with an operation to keep costs low and 

11 all the things and also rotate inspectors. 

12 And so that's the first thing that 

13 sort of came to mind is just that that's like one 

14 additional factor that goes into the variables of 

15 inspection scheduling, not that it can't be done. 

16 It's just devil's always in the details and just 

17 like one more thing that we have to figure out 

18 the how on and get back there to do this thing if 

19 --

20 Anyway, that's why I do think that 

21 having these -- more than one tool to get at this 

22 information would also help facilitate -- anyway, 
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1 just help facilitate the action that certifiers 

2 and inspectors are going need to do to implement 

3 this recommendation.

4 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Kyla. 

5 Any more discussion? Okay. Seeing 

6 none, thank you very much. I really appreciate 

7 it. That is our complete work agenda items from 

8 CACS. 

9 And I will turn it back over to you, 

10 Mr. Chair.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

12 you, Madam Chair.

13 We are pretty much wrapped up for Day 

14 One, folks. We're going to recess until tomorrow 

15 at 10:00 a.m. when we'll get kicked off with a 

16 introduction from Tony Dorn with NASS.

17 Any questions from the Board before we 

18 call it a day?

19 MEMBER DIMITRI: Maybe we can ask Tony 

20 about that question about the crop insurance, the 

21 vague one: costs too much, don't need it, don't 

22 want it. That would be the person to ask. 
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1 I'm just saying that because I'll 

2 forget by tomorrow. Someone else, hopefully, 

3 will remember. 

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So, everyone, if 

5 you would stay. The AV team is going to flip the 

6 cameras, and you can all wave to the folks at 

7 home and everyone watching. So stay in your 

8 seats. Don't run away just yet. 

9 Not a lot of waving going on. There 

10 we go. 

11 All right, team. Thank you so much. 

12 Thank you for a great first day. And thank you 

13 to my fellow board members. We'll see you 

14 tomorrow.

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

16 went off the record at 4:44 p.m.)

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

SPRING 2023 MEETING

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY

APRIL 26, 2023

+ + + + +

The Board met at the Crowne Plaza 

Atlanta Midtown 590 West Peachtree Street, NW 

Atlanta, Georgia, at 10:00 a.m., Nathaniel 

Powell-Palm, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH

AMY BRUCH, Secretary

BRIAN CALDWELL

GERARD D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

NATHANIEL LEWIS

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

FRANKLIN QUARCOO

WOOD TURNER
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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

FRED DAVID, Assistant Director, Standards 

Division

ERIN HEALY, Director, Standards Division

ANDREA HOLM, Agricultural Marketing Specialist

ALEXIS McINERNEY, Program Analyst

JOHANNA MIRENDA, Agricultural Marketing 

Specialist

JENNIFER TUCKER, Ph.D., Deputy Administrator

ROBERT YANG, Director, Accreditation Division

PENNY ZUCK, Agricultural Marketing Specialist

ALSO PRESENT

TONY DORN, USDA National Agricultural Statistics 

Service, Chief, Environmental, Economics and 

Demographics Branch
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A-G-E-N-D-A

PAGE

National Agricultural Statistics Service 

(NASS) Census of Agriculture Survey 

Results.................................. 5

Crops Subcommittee ........................... 37

Livestock Subcommittee ...................... 181

Materials Subcommittee ...................... 227

Adjourn ..................................... 281
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 10:00 a.m.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We are officially 

4 back from recess for Day 2. To kick us off, 

5 Jerry just had some small announcements. And 

6 then we're going to hand it off to our guest 

7 speaker. 

8 Oh, go ahead, Michelle, sorry. Oh, 

9 thank you, for the folks at home. 

10 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, yeah.

12 MEMBER D'AMORE: Good morning, all. 

13 I'll make an announcement here that some of you 

14 are privy to just in terms of the last couple of 

15 days. I can now tell my team, the team here, why 

16 I'm feeling so bad. 

17 I'm going through an allergic reaction 

18 to amoxicillin, something I've never, ever taken 

19 in my life. It was given to me in a root canal 

20 on Thursday. And Monday was brutal for me here. 

21 And I'm getting better now, and I'm not 

22 contagious. That's what I want to share.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 MEMBER D'AMORE: So thank you. 

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. With 

4 that, I'm going to hand it over to Dr. Tucker to 

5 introduce our guest for today.

6 DR. TUCKER: Hello, everyone. First 

7 thank you for coming back for Day 2 for folks 

8 both in the room and online, so great 

9 conversations yesterday. So thank you again to 

10 the Board for all your work.

11 I am really pleased to introduce Tony 

12 Dorn. He is here to talk about some recent work 

13 that the National Agricultural Statistics Service 

14 has done. One of the things we often talk about 

15 in organic is data and so last meeting we had 

16 somebody from the Organic Farming Research 

17 Foundation come to talk about some really 

18 interesting data. 

19 We generate some interesting data in 

20 USDA, so this time we thought we'd bring somebody 

21 from USDA. So Tony is here to do that with us. 

22 He is the branch chief of the Environmental 
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1 Economics and Demographics Branch of the USDA 

2 National Agricultural Statistics Service, NASS. 

3 His branch is primarily responsible 

4 for the analysis, estimation, and dissemination 

5 of NASS statistics for a wide variety of data 

6 series, including census of agriculture, organic, 

7 the farm labor report, and much more.

8 So Tony has more than 30 years with 

9 USDA. He's worked in four of the six divisions 

10 within NASS. He's been in the South Carolina, 

11 North Carolina, Wisconsin, and Puerto Rico field 

12 offices. So Tony's received two USDA Secretary 

13 Honor Awards during his time in the branch. So 

14 Tony comes with a Master's in Economics from 

15 South Dakota State University. 

16 So, Tony, thank you for making the 

17 trip down here. It is super to have you here. 

18 Thank you.

19 MR. DORN: Thank you.

20 (Applause.)

21 MR. DORN: All right, thank you, 

22 everybody, good morning. Today I will share with 
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1 you the results of the 2021 Organics survey. And 

2 first I would like to thank all the producers, 

3 the farmers who responded to this survey, to 

4 really make these results possible. 

5 And thank you to the cooperators, 

6 including the USDA Risk Management Agency and to 

7 other federal, state, and regional partners like 

8 yourselves to support organic foods, and the NASS 

9 team who helped produce these results.

10 As far as the history of the organics 

11 data series, one thing to keep in mind is that 

12 2021 was the seventh organic release by NASS. 

13 The 2021 release was produced in cooperation with 

14 the USDA's Risk Management Agency. The 2019 

15 organics release was the sixth by NASS, and this 

16 was a planned census special study. The 2008 

17 Organics Production Survey was the first organics 

18 release done by NASS.

19 Other NASS releases on organics 

20 include 2011 which included certified organic 

21 operations only, 2014 which included certified, 

22 exempt, and transitioning land, and 2015 and 2016 
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1 which included certified organic production.

2 Looking at the big picture, the 2021 

3 organics release is a census of all known 

4 operations with certified or transitioning 

5 organic production in the United States. The 

6 sources for the sampling frame were producers 

7 identified as certified organic or transitioning 

8 to organic certification in NASS's list and the 

9 AMS National Organic Program list of farms.

10 This release includes data at the 

11 commodity level for acreage, production and sales 

12 for organic crop and livestock commodities, as 

13 well as marketing and production practices, crop 

14 insurance usage, production expenses, and acres 

15 transitioning into organic production. Also, all 

16 US states were included in this release. 

17 As far as response rates like previous 

18 years, in 2021 the majority of responses were by 

19 mail, 39 percent. Phone responses were second 

20 with 34 percent, online responses were 20 

21 percent, and seven percent were from field 

22 enumeration. 
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1 On an additional note, the overall 

2 response rates were 42.6 percent in 2021 which 

3 compares with 59.4 percent in 2016. 

4 Taking a look at certified organic 

5 farms, the steady increase continued in 2021. 

6 There were over 17,000 organic farms, an increase 

7 of five percent from 2019. As the chart on the 

8 right shows, there's been a steady trend in the 

9 increase of the number of organic farms since 

10 2008. 

11 As far as total certified organic 

12 land, 2021 showed similar results from 2016 with 

13 4.9 million acres, and 11 percent decrease from 

14 2019. Organic crop land remained strong at over 

15 3.6 million acres, a three percent increase from 

16 2019. Organic pasture and rangeland decreased 

17 over 30 percent which follows the decreasing 

18 trend since its peak in 2016. As you can see on 

19 the bar chart on the right, acreages have varied 

20 some over time. 

21 Considering the top states as far as 

22 the number of organic farms, California remains 
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1 the top state with over 3,000 farms. The 

2 comparison bar shows California's impact compared 

3 to the other states. 

4 Wisconsin and New York were at second 

5 and third place, both with over 1,400 farms. 

6 Pennsylvania was fourth with over 1,100 farms, 

7 and Ohio rounded out the top five. Iowa, 

8 Washington, Indiana, Vermont, and Minnesota 

9 rounded out the top ten. Most states increased 

10 in the number of farms from 2019. 

11 Now considering the top states as far 

12 as land, California is also the top state with 

13 almost one million acres. New York and Montana 

14 are second and third, both with over 300,000 

15 acres. Wisconsin, Texas, Oregon, Idaho, and 

16 Vermont all have over 200,000. Colorado and Iowa 

17 round out the top ten. There was a decrease in 

18 organic land in California which led to the 

19 overall decrease in the United States. 

20 Diving into the top states by sales, 

21 California was the clear leader at over 3.5 

22 million in sales. Washington and Pennsylvania 
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1 are next with over a billion in organic sales. 

2 The rest of the states are fairly close together 

3 with Texas, Oregon, New York, Wisconsin, North 

4 Carolina, Michigan, and Colorado rounding out the 

5 top states. While sales in California decreased 

6 slightly, sales in Washington, Pennsylvania, and 

7 Texas showed strong increases. In order to 

8 get a geographic idea of organic sales by state, 

9 we can see how the leading area is the Pacific 

10 coast with California as the leader and 

11 Washington as second in sales. The northeast and 

12 Great Lakes are also strong areas for organic 

13 sales with Pennsylvania, New York, Wisconsin, and 

14 Michigan also in the top ten. These top ten 

15 states account for 73 percent of organic sales in 

16 the United States.

17 As far as the market value of 

18 certified organic products sold, all categories 

19 increased from 2019. Crop sales were over $6 

20 billion, an increase of six percent. Livestock 

21 and poultry sales were almost $2.2 billion, up 32 

22 percent. Livestock and poultry, which consists 
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1 mostly of organic milk and eggs, totaled almost 

2 $2.9 billion, an increase of 15 percent over 

3 2019. Total sales of organics were $11.2 

4 billion, an increase of 13 percent from 2019. 

5 Now turning to the sales by top 

6 commodities, we see that milk is the largest 

7 commodity with over $1.6 billion in sales. 

8 Broilers and eggs are second and third, each with 

9 over a billion dollars in sales. Apples and corn 

10 are next with over $400 million each. 

11 Strawberries, cattle, and grapes have over $300 

12 million in sales, and lettuce and soybeans round 

13 out the top ten commodities. 

14 Looking at the change in sales of the 

15 top ten commodities, we see that only grapes and 

16 lettuce decreased from 2019 to 2021, but all 

17 other commodities increased. At over $1.6 

18 billion, milk increased three percent from 2019. 

19 Broilers, eggs, apples, and corn all increased 

20 over 30 percent from 2019. Strawberries and 

21 cattle had moderate single digit increases. And 

22 lastly, soybeans increased but were at a level of 
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1 sales similar to 2016. 

2 Now turning just to the top crop 

3 commodities, we can see that the sales ranges are 

4 fairly close with apples being the top commodity 

5 with over $600 million. Corn, strawberries, 

6 grapes, and lettuce round out the top five crop 

7 categories in sales. 

8 As far as the changes from 2019 to 

9 2021, we see that all the top crop commodities, 

10 except grapes and lettuce, increased. As 

11 mentioned on a previous slide, soybeans had a 

12 strong increase in sales. Sales of all crop 

13 commodities were over $6.1 billion, an increase 

14 of six percent over 2019. 

15 Now turning to the top poultry and 

16 livestock products in sales, we see that milk, 

17 broilers, and eggs are the top three commodities, 

18 all with over $1.2 billion in sales. Cattle and 

19 turkeys round out the top organic livestock 

20 commodities. Sales of all livestock and 

21 commodities, and all livestock products, were 

22 over $5 billion, an increase of 22 percent from 
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1 2019. 

2 As far as changes from 2019, all the 

3 top organic livestock and livestock products 

4 increased. Milk increased three percent from 

5 2019, while broilers and eggs increased over 30 

6 percent each. 

7 Now shifting to organic marketing 

8 practices, as shown by the instructions and 

9 questionnaire at the top, data we have collected 

10 for edible agricultural products for human 

11 consumption, the products that were resold were 

12 excluded in the table. And we see that direct to 

13 retail markets and institutions, and direct to 

14 consumer sales were both marketed by over 3,000 

15 farms. Value-added products are marketed by 

16 almost 1,500 farms. 

17 And what stands out in the right 

18 column is that direct to retail markets and 

19 institutions had a much larger proportion, over 

20 $2 billion in sales, than direct to consumer 

21 sales, even with almost the same number of farms. 

22 Value added products had over $700 million in 
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1 sales. 

2 Now looking at the top organic 

3 production practices by the number of farms, we 

4 see that the top production practices are fairly 

5 consistent. The top production practice was 

6 buffer strips or border rows to isolate organics 

7 at almost 11,000 farms. The rest of the top 

8 production practices were used by over 6,000 

9 farms. 

10 Comparing 2021 to 2019, we see that 

11 all the top production practices increased in 

12 2021 except applying animal manure which was down 

13 slightly. Use of no-till or minimum till 

14 increased the most from 2019.

15 Now we'll take a look at the major 

16 challenges for certified organic farmers based on 

17 the percent of farms. As you can see, the price 

18 issues, and especially market access challenges, 

19 decreased from 2019 with market access challenges 

20 dropping 20 percent. Other challenges that 

21 produced this phase remain similar to 2019. 

22 Considering the future production 
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1 plans for certified organic farms, there wasn't 

2 much to change. Most farms plan to maintain the 

3 current level of production in the future, 44 

4 percent, which is unchanged from 2019. 

5 As far as transitioning land on 

6 certified organic farms, both farms and acres of 

7 land transitioning decreased from 2019. So while 

8 the acreage of organic land will continue to 

9 increase in the future, it's increasing at a 

10 slower rate. 

11 There was a 16 percent decrease in 

12 certified farms with transitioning land from 2019 

13 to 2021 at over 1,500 farms. Both acres of crop 

14 land and acres of pasture and range land had 

15 double digit decreases from 2019. This followed 

16 the trend in a decrease in organic land. 

17 Turning to non-certified farms with 

18 transitioning land, we see that there were over 

19 650 farms and over 62,000 acres of transitional 

20 land on non-certified farms. Most of the land, 

21 over 45,000 acres, is crop land, and over 16,000 

22 acres is pasture or range land. 
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1 While the number of non-certified 

2 farms with transitional land decreased seven 

3 percent from 2019, acres increased two percent. 

4 The increase in land was driven by a 15 percent 

5 increase in crop land even though there was a 20 

6 percent decrease in pasture and range land. 

7 Next we'll take a look at organic 

8 farms by sales class. The sales class of less 

9 than $10,000 had the fewest percent of farms at 

10 11 percent. The sales class of $10,000 to 

11 $99,000 had the highest percent of farms at 39 

12 percent. The largest sales class of farms, 

13 $500,000 or more, represented 18 percent of the 

14 farms. As far the percent of sales, the sales 

15 classes below $500,000 accounted for a small 

16 portion of sales. But the largest sales class of 

17 $500,000 or more had the vast majority of sales 

18 at 86 percent. 

19 And this is the general contact 

20 information in case anybody has questions or 

21 anything at any time. And our email's always our 

22 first name and last name at USDA.gov. And all 
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1 other information is available on the NASS 

2 website at www.NASS.USDA.gov. 

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

4 (Applause.)

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for Tony 

6 from the Board? 

7 (Simultaneous speaking.) 

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

9 ahead, then Dilip.

10 MEMBER LEWIS: Thanks so much for the 

11 presentation, I appreciate it. So the Board 

12 often, or every year provides a list of research 

13 priorities to NIFA to shape their grant programs 

14 for organic research. 

15 And I'm curious if you think that a 

16 similar type of recommendation from us around 

17 what data collection we need added, or removed, 

18 or shaped, what would be useful for these surveys 

19 moving forward. Like, how would it be best to 

20 package that for NASS so that we can hear from 

21 stakeholders what kind of data needs there are. 

22 And we can pass that along to you in a way that 
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1 you can actually utilize. 

2 MR. DORN: Yeah, thank you for that. 

3 That's a good question. So we do have the 

4 ability to -- the organic survey is usually a 

5 census follow-on. But we also do have the 

6 special studies, you know, in cooperation with 

7 other USDA partners. 

8 So if you have questions and data that 

9 you need that's not on there, or you think maybe 

10 it shouldn't be on there, it isn't needed 

11 anymore, there are several ways to approach that. 

12 You can contact us directly and make a 

13 recommendation, just with an email or a phone 

14 call. 

15 Or otherwise we have a Federal 

16 Register note that goes out and usually is 

17 available. I'm not sure if you're aware of 

18 those, but we solicit feedback when we're 

19 prepping for a survey as required by OMB. So 

20 that's another way to give feedback formally 

21 through that arena. 

22 And also, you know, the census of 
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1 Agriculture has a few questions on organics too, 

2 so that's another area that would be a little 

3 more limited, obviously. Organics is the focus 

4 of the entire questionnaire. There'd be more 

5 flexibility in the organic survey, but either 

6 way, I mean, just contacting directly or through 

7 the Federal Register notice, we'll be glad to 

8 consider any kind of changes in that too and 

9 meet the data needs. Because we want to reflect 

10 the current data needs that are out there. So 

11 currently we'll entertain those. 

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip and then 

13 Brian. 

14 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you for the 

15 presentation. This is a very valuable 

16 information as a researcher and education 

17 perspective with the university. Couple of 

18 simple question probably, I'm not sure you have 

19 those answers but I'll try. 

20 So decreasing organic land from 2019 

21 to 2021, is that correct? Did I -- right?

22 MR. DORN: Yes.
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1 MEMBER NANDWANI: So what can you tell 

2 about any reason if you have come across during 

3 that survey? 

4 And the second question, does it mean 

5 the domestic production has decreased past couple 

6 of years? And other side we see there is a $62 

7 billion industry is growing. And does that mean 

8 the import has increased but the domestic 

9 production has decreased? I just want to make 

10 sure I got it correct. Thank you.

11 MR. DORN: Yeah. As far as the first 

12 question, there was the decrease in land. The 

13 pasture land showed a decrease quite a bit. And 

14 as far as acres, really we're looking at acres. 

15 So, you know, there's large land, of course. You 

16 know, in some states we have larger acreage and 

17 things like that, so just a few changes. 

18 Organic is a fairly concentrated 

19 industry. So, you know, we can't disclose 

20 individual operations or anything like that. So 

21 the responses that we have, you know, when there 

22 are changes and everything, large acres, a few 
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1 operations in that can really make a difference 

2 in the result. 

3 And pasture is one area where the 

4 survey results showed there's a decrease. And 

5 that led to the overall decrease in land. But 

6 crop land was increasing. So that's another 

7 consideration along that. 

8 And I'm not sure I understood the 

9 second question as far as there was domestic 

10 versus import sales. 

11 MEMBER NANDWANI: The domestic 

12 production has decreased, if I got it correct 

13 from one of your slides, from 2019 to 2021. But 

14 we see that the food sales have been increasing 

15 constantly past, like, four percent. And latest 

16 figure of the survey is, like, $62 billion. Even 

17 during the COVID time we had increased about 12 

18 percent from 2019 to 2021. 

19 Do you have any say on this, the 

20 difference, or anything that could be the reason 

21 for -- or you may not have covered this in the 

22 survey, I believe. 
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1 MR. DORN: Right. Yeah, I'm not sure. 

2 Let's see, there was an increase, yeah, between 

3 2019 and >21 was the comparison. So it's just a 

4 few short years and everything too. So we'll 

5 have more information when the census of 

6 Agriculture comes out. So that will also be 

7 another indicator of the trend. 

8 Since we have so many, unfortunately 

9 we have so many years of organics data, we'll be 

10 able to tell more of a trend when 2021 comes 

11 along too. But yeah, as far as 2019, we did see 

12 fairly strong sales in that too. And I'm not 

13 sure what specifically, I'd have to look into 

14 which commodities you're talking about that might 

15 be decreasing. 

16 MEMBER NANDWANI: That helps, thank 

17 you. 

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, and then 

19 Jerry.

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thanks for the 

21 presentation. I'm just wondering, if I 

22 understood correctly, the response rate for the 
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1 2021 survey was about in the 40's somewhere, 42 

2 percent or something like that. And I'm just 

3 wondering how do you extrapolate to get the total 

4 figures if you only have 42 percent respondents?

5 MR. DORN: Yeah. Thank you for that 

6 question. The census follow-on, when the 

7 organics is a census follow-on survey, that's a 

8 mandatory survey required by law, like any census 

9 of Agriculture. 2019 wasn't part of that 

10 program, so it was non-mandatory. So that was 

11 one of the reasons for the response rates. 

12 And even during, you know, the census, 

13 we have full documentation in our -- I mean, if 

14 you are really into getting into the details in 

15 the Appendix of our release, we go into full 

16 detail about how we do the adjustments for 

17 non-response. Obviously not everybody responds 

18 to the census of Agriculture and the census 

19 products. 

20 So what we do, we account for like 

21 farms. We use history, we use analysis trends, 

22 things like that, to account for those that 
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1 aren't responding so that we do have a full 

2 measure. 

3 And that's why, going back to the 

4 first slide, responses are critical, you know, by 

5 farmers and everything. Because the ground 

6 truth from the producers is what really makes our 

7 data stronger. And the stronger data we have, 

8 you know, the stronger results we'll have. So 

9 that's why it's really important. We can make 

10 adjustments and do things, you know, the best we 

11 can, but having that report by a producer is 

12 really valuable. 

13 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. Thank you 

14 that's great. 

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry? 

16 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you very much 

17 for the presentation. It's nice to deal with 

18 numbers. 

19 One of the things that surprised me, 

20 and perhaps it shouldn't have, is the ratio of 

21 specialty crops to commodities being shown there. 

22 I thought the commodities were dominating, but 
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1 I'm wrong. I mean, the specialty crops certainly 

2 have their place. And the geographics really 

3 surprised me too in terms of where the organic 

4 proposition lined up within the United States.

5 To Dilip's question, maybe that dip 

6 was attributable to COVID and the complete 

7 disappearance of the food service market. You 

8 know, you sort of say, well, if you didn't eat at 

9 home or a restaurant -- we lost share of stomach 

10 during that period of time too, so that may be 

11 it. 

12 Oh, and the question I have, is there 

13 any attempt within the greater agency to slice, 

14 and dice, and compare the conventional to the 

15 organic? I mean, these numbers are going to be 

16 minuscule against, but I think there might be 

17 something here to be learned in terms of what's 

18 going, you know, what's growing and what's not 

19 growing in terms -- go ahead. 

20 MR. DORN: Yeah, very good, great 

21 question. So yeah, normally we don't really do 

22 that on our own, like a special study or report, 
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1 things like that. We do have a data lab that's 

2 available and a lot of researchers that would 

3 come in. 

4 It's available to everybody to comes 

5 in and do -- not necessarily cross-sectional but 

6 they can did into the data more deeply and 

7 everything. And of course everything is 

8 confidential. Any individual reports aren't 

9 included. So that's available for researchers to 

10 come in to do. 

11 As far as what, you know, our scope 

12 and what we do, necessarily, we really kind of 

13 produce the reports. The Economic Research 

14 Service is one agency. A lot of times, they'll 

15 take the reports of NASS and other, well, 

16 governmental agencies, and they'll put it 

17 together. 

18 They might have something where they 

19 would compare organics and things like that. 

20 They do a lot of that kind of value added 

21 reporting based off of the statistics. So they 

22 would definitely be an area who might have some 
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1 information already on that. And if not, I'm 

2 sure that might be something they'd be interested 

3 in looking into. 

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, Amy, please go 

5 ahead.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, thanks, Nate. 

7 Tony, I want to prompt Carolyn over there as a 

8 reminder for your question that you had 

9 yesterday. And then I have a question after 

10 that. 

11 MEMBER DIMITRI: Tony, first, you 

12 know, I'm very happy that this data exists. 

13 Because I remember, you know, in 2005 when you 

14 couldn't actually do any research, because there 

15 was no data. So I know that there are a lot of 

16 imperfections in the data set but, you know, I 

17 manage to get a lot work done with it. So thank 

18 you to you and NASS.

19 Yesterday we were talking about crop 

20 insurance as option, and we noticed that the way 

21 it's reported out by NASS is these very broad 

22 categories. And there's one category that says, 
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1 like, doesn't need or want. And I wonder if you 

2 can talk about, like, what does that mean. Or do 

3 you aggregate that up from other questions, or do 

4 you just have this, like, check box? 

5 Anyway, we'd like to know more about 

6 that particular piece of information. I know 

7 it's very weedy. And maybe it's not something 

8 you think about, but it's something we think 

9 about. Thank you.

10 MR. DORN: Thank you. I'll have to 

11 admit that's something that we haven't really 

12 seen to dig into, more than just what was 

13 reported and what the results were. I mean, 

14 that's generally something we haven't -- I know 

15 just generally when we get down to the details of 

16 farmers responding when we're looking at, I 

17 mean, the organics, every type of detailed 

18 questionnaire, obviously there's a burden on 

19 farmers to report. 

20 So getting down to any more 

21 delineation to a question like that, of course, 

22 is a respondent burden and harder to do. But I 
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1 haven't looked into that specifically yet, sorry. 

2 But we'll be glad to.

3 MEMBER DIMITRI: Just one follow-up 

4 comment, how do you create those questions, like, 

5 when you say you have these questions about crop 

6 insurance, it's like where do those options come 

7 from?

8 MR. DORN: Good question and back to 

9 the earlier question too. When they first 

10 started, we worked with other partners. When we 

11 were first starting, one of -- we usually worked 

12 with USDA partners. And there will be a Federal 

13 Register notice where, if everybody sees those 

14 and knows that there's a survey coming, we take 

15 feedback on what questions to develop and to 

16 have. 

17 And right now we're taking feedback. 

18 If you would submit that as a question we would 

19 consider what we could do with that as far as if 

20 farmers could respond, those added responses and 

21 things like that. So it's evolving, and there's 

22 always opportunity to change. So it comes from 
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1 anywhere and everybody who's interested in the 

2 data, really.

3 MEMBER DIMITRI: Okay. Just my final 

4 question, I used to work for ERS, so I have, 

5 like, a little bit of insight into the sausage, 

6 and I know there's a lot of agency level, 

7 complicated, tense discussions about, like, what 

8 actually belongs on the survey.

9 And I guess I'm allowed to talk about 

10 that, because I don't work for the federal 

11 government anymore. But I wonder what you can 

12 say publicly, you know. Thank you. And I swear, 

13 that's my last comment.

14 MR. DORN: Well, I do know, I've been 

15 working, you know, in this area for a few years 

16 too and everything. And right now we do have a 

17 really good working relationship with the ERS, 

18 which we do the ARMS survey, the farm income and 

19 expense survey, the landlord survey, things like 

20 that. And we're working really well together. 

21 Of course, ERS had a major kind of 

22 restructure and everything, so we have a really 
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1 good working partnership with ERS and all the 

2 other USDAs, but especially with ERS. And we're 

3 really working closely together in a very good 

4 partnership, because we're both interested in the 

5 data. 

6 And just like us, they get a lot of 

7 requests for more data, more information, at a 

8 more granular level. So we're all trying to work 

9 together and making sure that those tough 

10 questions that need granular data are answered 

11 the right way. So we're working data well in the 

12 partnership. 

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Tony, thank you 

14 so much for being my table mate and coming here 

15 today to share with us this data. I am a 

16 participant in the phone survey. That's my 

17 preferred method to participate in the survey. 

18 But it's nice to see the summary data. I love to 

19 hear that you are working with different partners 

20 within the USDA. 

21 And as Carolyn mentioned, our focus 

22 yesterday was crop insurance. I'm just curious. 
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1 We definitely are in need from an organic 

2 standpoint, and a transition standpoint, to get 

3 sound actuarial data into RMA to increase our 

4 database so we can improve insurance. 

5 Can we rely, can RMA rely on this data 

6 to improve their actuarial database, or would 

7 they just reference this data for supporting 

8 information?

9 MR. DORN: Well, we're a federal 

10 statistical agency which means that we're 

11 independent of any type of regulation. So, you 

12 know, we won't share individual reports, of 

13 course, with RMA or anything like that. So they 

14 would not get individual reports from NASS to 

15 look at that for auditing or anything like that. 

16 So it would just be, you know, what's 

17 available really to other agencies really is 

18 available to the public. And that's one of the, 

19 I guess, transparency that we strive to do in our 

20 policies. So what they see is what you see. 

21 If there was any kind of special data 

22 lab or anything that researchers or anybody would 
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1 be looking at, that would be available to the 

2 public as well. So really globally is what they 

3 would, you know, the same type of aggregate data 

4 you're looking at is what they would see. So 

5 there's not really -- there's no auditing or 

6 anything of individual records if that's what you 

7 mean.

8 MEMBER BRUCH: No, not necessarily 

9 individual records, just that aggregated data, on 

10 a regional basis essentially, to improve, just 

11 information about what's going on in the program. 

12 Because not everybody participates in crop 

13 insurance. But you did say that this survey, 

14 which is great, that it's 100 percent 

15 participation going forward. So I just thought, 

16 you know, it's supplemental data. Maybe that 

17 could be beneficial. 

18 MR. DORN: Right. Yeah. And with 

19 that we don't have any -- I don't have any 

20 specifics on RMA, you know, if they're uses that 

21 they've looked in, how useful that was. But, 

22 like, generally speaking, I mean, the same type 
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1 of information to the public's available within 

2 other agencies.

3 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

5 for Tony?

6 All right, I'm going to hand it back 

7 to Dr. Tucker.

8 DR. TUCKER: So first I want to thank 

9 Tony. Let's give him a another hand.

10 (Applause.)

11 DR. TUCKER: Second, I do want to 

12 comment that we do send, when these surveys come 

13 out that are of interest to the organic sector, 

14 we do send out organic insiders on that. And so 

15 for any groups that are listening, you know, if 

16 you can help us to augment those invitations out 

17 to your mailing list, I know when we get into 

18 rulemaking, this type of data is incredibly 

19 important in terms of, well, what is the 

20 population that you're impacting with this rule?

21 And, you know, we have to say, well, 

22 here was the response rate of that. And so I 
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1 think we hear on one side the organic community 

2 really wants data, data, data. The response 

3 rates really need to show that, that you really 

4 want the data. 

5 Because if there are really high 

6 response rates on organic data collection, it 

7 makes it much easier to go and say we need this 

8 special study, and look, you're going to get a 

9 really high response rate if you do it which, in 

10 turn, helps us with the regulations and standards 

11 that everybody wants. 

12 So I do want to make sure we draw a 

13 direct line between those please, please, please 

14 participate back to the rulemaking process that 

15 all of us hold dear. So let's connect those dots 

16 and get the word out when these surveys come out 

17 to make sure that we're getting the farmers to 

18 the phone, to the paper, to whatever, to have 

19 their voices heard. It all matters in the 

20 organic system. 

21 So, Tony, thank you for the work you 

22 do, your team does, for your report, for coming 
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1 down here today and being with us. 

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And so 

3 we're going to get kicked off today with crops. 

4 And with that, I'm going to be handing it back to 

5 Amy Bruch who is very generously chairing both 

6 the CACS and crops. And so whenever you're 

7 ready, Amy, the floor is yours. 

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, Nate, thank you. 

9 Michelle, I need a clicker, actually. Oh, it's 

10 right beside me, thank you. Didn't have to go 

11 too far for that. 

12 All right. I hope everybody is doing 

13 well. Thank you again, Tony, that was a 

14 wonderful presentation you provided us with. 

15 Before we get started into our work agenda, 

16 I actually have, I believe, four points here to 

17 bring up and discuss. First, I wanted to give a 

18 special thanks to the members of the Crops 

19 Subcommittee. We have a very tight network, and 

20 as Nate mentioned yesterday, we did have to 

21 weather a few member decreases, I guess. 

22 Rick, a senior member with a lot of wisdom, 
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1 left our team which we were sad to see him go. 

2 And then Liz with her fresh perspective and 

3 energy, she provided a lot to our subcommittee, 

4 and it was sad to see her go as well.

5 But we picked up a fantastic new 

6 addition, Franklin, thank you for joining our 

7 team. He's really hit the ground running. You 

8 were kind of a late addition, but you have 

9 participated from day one. So thank you very 

10 much for that.

11 Thanks to the community as well, 

12 really appreciate all of your public comments to 

13 our work agenda. It was very helpful to hear 

14 kind of, again, both sides of the equation. It 

15 makes our recommendations a lot more robust. 

16 Third, I just wanted to also highlight 

17 a little bit what we're doing internally amongst 

18 our materials, I'll call them the Materials 

19 Review Subcommittee. So that would be crops 

20 handling with my table mate partner, Kyla here, 

21 and livestock with Ms. Kim, and our fearless 

22 leaders Mindee and Nate. 
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1 We have kind of collaboratively worked 

2 together and worked kind of across the aisles to 

3 try to optimize and aggregate how we do sunset 

4 management. We've optimized and believe the 

5 process a little bit better. I guess I think 

6 it's better, but we're still kind of working 

7 through that transformation.

8 We're looking at planting on an annual 

9 basis instead of a semester basis. So that does 

10 provide us with more opportunities within the 

11 meetings to really have those robust 

12 conversations. It also helps us plan our work a 

13 little bit more effectively. 

14 So as it was mentioned, we're 

15 volunteers. We all have day jobs. But 

16 sometimes there's seasonality with our day jobs, 

17 with our farming season at least. I have some 

18 off periods, so it allows for me to make more 

19 progress on NOSB work agenda items if we know 

20 what the calendar schedule is a year in advance, 

21 essentially. 

22 It allows for us to process TR 
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1 sufficiencies maybe a little bit quicker. What 

2 we've already tackled is the 2026 TR's, 

3 sufficiency. So we're a couple of months ahead 

4 of schedule on that. So hopefully what the 

5 community will see is potentially these TRs in 

6 your hands a little bit sooner, just because we 

7 are requesting them a little bit sooner. 

8 It does take a long time collectively 

9 amongst the three subcommittees. We asked for 

10 quite a few of them, I think 17 is what we're 

11 slated to potentially this year. So we're trying 

12 to do that in a very efficient way and look 

13 amongst the other subcommittees. 

14 Because sometimes these materials that 

15 we noticed this time around, we review them in 

16 tandem, i.e., phosphoric acid. We're reviewing 

17 that in crops and also in handling. So it's good 

18 if we do have that partnership amongst the 

19 subcommittees. 

20 Anything to add, Kyla or Kim, Mindee, 

21 with that process?

22 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yeah. And, Amy, 
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1 thank you for taking the lead on pushing us all 

2 along, pulling us all along. I think the 

3 discipline and the forward thinking of sending 

4 out an agenda well in advance to try to keep on 

5 task and be more proactive on that front will be 

6 very successful. 

7 And I think it's great, not only for 

8 the Board members, but also for the community as 

9 well, to try to get as much advance information 

10 as possible as things are coming around.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry?

12 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah. Well, thank 

13 you. As one of your more vocal naysayers in the 

14 beginning, I would like very much to say yes, 

15 this is the way to go. The ability to plan out 

16 on a calendar year is extraordinary in its 

17 benefits. 

18 I will say the Germans have an 

19 expression, Aller Anfang ist schwer, which means 

20 all beginnings are difficult. And these 

21 beginnings were difficult, and you guys, again, 

22 pulled this through. And it's something I think 
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1 is really quite good. I like it.

2 MEMBER SMITH: I'll just add that 

3 within each of the scope subcommittees, crop, 

4 livestock handling sort of ebbed and flows on who 

5 has the, you know, most sunsets. And going into 

6 next year's work, handling has 29 2026 sunsets. 

7 So in order to effectively manage 

8 that, we really had to work collaboratively, 

9 because there are members that, you know, are on 

10 handling and another subcommittee that also has 

11 sunsets. And so in order to, anyway, we can't do 

12 it in a silo, we have to work together, and 

13 especially when the workload in one subcommittee 

14 is much more substantial than in another. And 

15 that, like I said, ebbs and flows. 

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just another shout 

17 out to Amy and the whole team who manages 

18 materials, when folks don't show up or we have 

19 folks drop off the Board, change-over, usually 

20 that means we have reassignment of work at 

21 inopportune times. And everybody stepped up to 

22 grab those materials to keep the process flowing. 
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1 Nothing got slowed down by it. 

2 So thank you to everybody, thank you 

3 for the leadership to Amy, but everybody else as 

4 well for stepping up and making the semester 

5 finish out. 

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Now back to my 

7 fourth point on TRs. This was just a response, 

8 or this is a response to some of the feedback we 

9 did see in written comments. Crops, this year we 

10 had four complete TRs and two limited scope TRs. 

11 Most of them are available on the 

12 Internet. However, we are still waiting, I 

13 believe, for one of them, and that's carbon 

14 dioxide. We did request, and you'll see this on 

15 our work agenda for next semester, carbon dioxide 

16 will be reviewed as a petitioned substance, and 

17 we'll be reviewing it for the soil amendment 

18 addition. And that is going to have a full TR. 

19 So mark your calendars for when that comes 

20 available. 

21 But anyway, our protocol when we do 

22 receive a draft TR, if there's not substantive 
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1 changes, we do begin leveraging that document for 

2 our review process. And that was a case, in 

3 particular we heard a lot of feedback on 

4 potassium sorbate. 

5 So we did use the TR to write our 

6 document. We used new information to write that 

7 document. So I just wanted to clear up some of 

8 the confusion there. Because we do use the draft 

9 mode before it is publicly published, just to 

10 forward our work agenda. 

11 And the best thing about all of our 

12 documents this time around is they will be viewed 

13 next semester. Also, we're not voting on any of 

14 them this semester. We're discussing them so you 

15 have kind of a longer runway if you look at it 

16 with the materials in front of you to be very 

17 prepared for the next time we review this and 

18 vote on this.

19 And please catch me in between the 

20 meeting if there's any more that we can do. As a 

21 subcommittee we did talk about this as well. And 

22 we decided we are going to prioritize TRs when we 
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1 do receive them ahead of any other work agenda 

2 item. That's something we can do. 

3 We usually have a pretty long deadline 

4 to review them. But we're going to try to move 

5 those to the front of the line and get those 

6 circulated a little bit faster. So that was 

7 another thing we talked amongst our subcommittee 

8 members that we could do to help this feedback 

9 exchange. But please catch me if you have any 

10 more ideas. 

11 Okay. And then I did preview the work 

12 agenda for next semester. Currently it's slated 

13 to be reviewing the same topics that we're 

14 discussing here today as well as, again, that 

15 carbon dioxide petition. 

16 So first off is the petition for 

17 potassium sorbate. And that actually is my 

18 document, so I will pass the mic to myself.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. So potassium 

21 sorbate, this was a petitioned substance that our 

22 subcommittee reviewed. And we did thoroughly 
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1 review this with the materials that were provided 

2 to us. We had, again, a new TR. We had old 

3 material. This was actually a substance that the 

4 1995 subcommittee was reviewing or looking at 

5 this as well. So there's a history. 

6 It was interesting to read some of 

7 those notes on their process. One individual of 

8 the NOSB actually camped out at the FDA to try to 

9 get information about this particular substance. 

10 So I thought that was really interesting 

11 archival history. I'm sure Joanna knows more 

12 about that than I do.

13 But anyway, to move on with this 

14 petitioned substance, it is petitioned as a 

15 synthetic. And it is petitioned to be used as an 

16 insecticide and also as a plant disease control. 

17 And so the petitioned summary essentially says, 

18 and this information's at your review -- in your 

19 review materials. But in summary it's an 

20 additional tool in a crop disease resistant 

21 program. It has a contact mode of action, and 

22 it's not suspected a contributing to 
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1 phytotoxicity of crops. 

2 And potassium, and review history, so 

3 this currently is on the National List. It's a 

4 synthetic, inert ingredient. So that's why it 

5 appears on our National List to be used in that 

6 fashion. 

7 It's also been petitioned 

8 unsuccessfully three additional times for the 

9 inclusion on the National List, in 1995 as a seed 

10 treatment, production aid, in 2002 it was 

11 petitioned in crops as a seed film coating and as 

12 a preservative, or as a seed film coating and as 

13 a preservative. For livestock, it was petitioned 

14 for use in organic livestock production as a mold 

15 inhibitor. And in all three of those cases, it 

16 was not added to the National List. 

17 EPA does have this listed as, or it's 

18 listed on the inert list for ingredients. And 

19 it's also exempt from regulations on efficacy and 

20 toxicity. The FDA has it under the generally 

21 recognized as safe. And then international, 

22 there is no current international regulations 
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1 that accept the product for the petitioned use. 

2 Petitioned use, again, is for insecticide and 

3 disease mitigation.

4 Environmental and health impact, it 

5 stated that the degradation of the products of 

6 potassium sorbate are more hazardous than the 

7 product itself and mainly, primarily focus on 

8 sorbic acid. Sorbic acid is reported to have 

9 synergistic effects with sodium nitrate and form 

10 several species of direct-acting mutagens in 

11 general. And this was also noted with public 

12 comments. 

13 There is limited information available 

14 about potassium sorbate in this petition 

15 function. However, there is lots of information 

16 about potassium sorbate as food preservative or 

17 as a post-harvest treatment. 

18 So there is information available. 

19 But when we look at the information available and 

20 compare it to how this is petitioned, we don't 

21 necessarily understand chemical interactions. We 

22 don't understand use and conventional crop 
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1 pesticide applications. And these were mentioned 

2 in the TR that I'm referencing. We don't 

3 understand interactions with soil organisms. 

4 We have ideas on what that could be, 

5 but it's essentially transitive property, because 

6 we don't have this substance that we can 

7 necessarily analyze in its current form as 

8 inactive. 

9 Environmental, there is reason to 

10 expect that it would inhibit the growth of soil 

11 microorganisms. And also there is a potential to 

12 increase the pH of the soil. And that would 

13 impact the bacterial community and health. 

14 It's listed as a low allergenic 

15 potential of all the food preservatives that are 

16 out there. It is category 2B, serious eye damage 

17 and irritation. And most of the potassium 

18 sorbate, when it's consumed as a food 

19 preservative, is dispelled. 

20 There's many alternatives to this 

21 substance currently. And some of them actually 

22 we will be revealing during our sunset process in 
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1 further detail. Potassium sulfate and lime 

2 sulfur we'll be reviewing in the sunset process. 

3 But there is a quite extensive list of 

4 alternatives. 

5 And then the discussion document 

6 summary, potassium sorbate is not made with 

7 renewable resources. Materials used to produce 

8 potassium sorbate are not recyclable. It does 

9 not compliment the use of natural and biological 

10 controls. Many alternatives exist. And then 

11 kind of what we've heard with a lot of public 

12 comments is just that more research is needed, in 

13 particular with this substance. 

14 So looking at a review of the public 

15 comments, we had a lot of participation with 

16 public comments on this particular substance. 

17 Several members had concerns including two 

18 certifiers and two advocacy groups. Farmers 

19 tended to be in favor of this product as well as 

20 grower groups with one additional farmer rep 

21 encouraging more research and listing if it means 

22 OFPA criteria. 
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1 The majority of the comments in favor 

2 or against this material just also seemed to be 

3 in line with the theme of more research is 

4 needed. One in particular from farmers 

5 mentioned, you know, just having adequate tools 

6 to control powdery mildew. That's what one of 

7 the diseases that this will mitigate, including 

8 downy mildew. Insects were mainly the spider 

9 mites, so typically in vegetables and in tree 

10 fruits. That could see some benefit from this 

11 product. 

12 People that were in favor also of this 

13 product just said, you know, it's being used, 

14 it's on the National List as an approved inert 

15 ingredient. So why can't we essentially move 

16 that over to the National List as an active? 

17 People that were concerned or against 

18 just opposed the listing due to essentiality and 

19 efficacy data. They also -- I think this was a 

20 really powerful statement, that we know we need 

21 tools in this area. We're just not sure if this 

22 is the right tool for the situation, just based 
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1 on OFPA criteria. 

2 So I think the community, it seems 

3 like stakeholders need solutions. With that, 

4 I'll just kind of open it up to Board discussion 

5 to comment on this particular substance, 

6 compatibility with the OFPA requirements, and the 

7 potential needs of this product.

8 So thank you very much.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for Amy? 

10 Brian, please go ahead.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. Thanks, Amy, 

12 that was a pretty thorough review. 

13 I have to note that I haven't looked 

14 at this in a while, but as I remember, the 

15 petition for this product had a lot of paragraphs 

16 and parts that were cut and pasted from some of 

17 the previous petitions. Is that right? It 

18 seemed to me that it wasn't really focused 

19 completely on the uses that the petition was for. 

20 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. There were some 

21 references. Again, just research in this arena 

22 is fairly limited. So references to it as a seed 
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1 treatment and a food preservative were also found 

2 in the petition.

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Right, that's what I 

4 remember. And I believe there are conventional 

5 products that are labeled and used for this 

6 purpose. Do we know that? Well, anyway, that's 

7 sort of a side point. What I was thinking was 

8 that there may be more data coming about efficacy 

9 and stuff like that if it's being used in the 

10 conventional world. 

11 And here's a question I have that may 

12 be more for NOP folks. And that is, like, if we 

13 vote this petition down, as I remember from the 

14 past it cannot be re-petitioned for this use. Is 

15 that correct?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I hand that to 

17 Jared.

18 MR. CLARK: It would have to have new 

19 information for you to --

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Oh, okay, new 

21 information. 

22 MR. CLARK: It could be petitioned 
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1 again down the road for a different use, or if 

2 there's new information that may have changed how 

3 you voted. 

4 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay. Fine, so then 

5 it's not sort of a do or die thing is we vote 

6 this down. It could conceivably come back if 

7 there's new information with the petition. So 

8 those are my questions, just to kind of get the 

9 situation clear in my mind.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. Thank you, 

11 Brian. From the data I reviewed, I didn't 

12 necessarily see studies for this particular use 

13 in conventional fields. I was kind of curious on 

14 that as well. It potentially could be that 

15 there's, you know, different modes of action that 

16 are chosen that probably have more octane for 

17 conventional growers than potentially some 

18 substance. 

19 But we did ask the community for 

20 additional resources. And we did get one 

21 document on information from an extension that 

22 briefly touched on this. But it's a lot of the 
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1 transitive property. It works for food 

2 preservation, therefore it should work in this 

3 fashion. 

4 So if there is information that we 

5 need to look at, kind of a plug to the community 

6 on the conventional use, I guess, let us know. 

7 But there was a line item in the TR that said 

8 that that information was pretty minimal as well. 

9 MEMBER PETREY: Jared, when you mean 

10 new information, could that strictly be efficacy 

11 information that is presented?

12 MR. CLARK: It could be efficacy, it 

13 could be, you know, environmental health studies 

14 that are new. It's kind of broad. 

15 MEMBER PETREY: Yeah. It seems like 

16 it. Thank you.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, that's a good 

18 question, Logan. There was some efficacy data 

19 put into the petition itself. And that's what we 

20 received comments on, that the substances that 

21 were used as industry standards weren't 

22 necessarily what industry uses. So the 
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1 comparisons were, some folks, you know, didn't 

2 necessarily move them to think this product would 

3 be any more beneficial than the products that are 

4 currently available. 

5 MEMBER SMITH: Besides the research on 

6 efficacy, or basically with the question that you 

7 had asked, is there any other information that 

8 would be helpful to you or the subcommittee to 

9 help write a proposal, essentially? What other 

10 information do you need, or do you feel like you 

11 have enough to make a recommendation?

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Well, public comments 

13 were helpful. Again, I think there's a need from 

14 producers for tools. But it's just, again, 

15 evaluating does this tool, in its petition 

16 source, meet OFPA criteria. 

17 So currently, the information that we 

18 have available is pretty limiting. And 

19 originally we did deem the TR insufficient, 

20 because this data was not all in the TR. And 

21 that was, again, probably one of the items that 

22 extended the process of TR evaluation for this 
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1 particular substance. 

2 Because we really were trying to push 

3 back to get more specific information. It's just 

4 not available, so at least what was found in the 

5 TR. This was one of our questions we did ask the 

6 community, additional known research or 

7 information. So we'll just have to work with 

8 what we have. 

9 I think what Brian had mentioned about 

10 conventional data, we can do another just kind of 

11 survey with our own materials internally to see 

12 if that data exists. But, you know, stakeholder 

13 feedback is going to be really critical in this 

14 process, kind of a joint effort as we evaluate 

15 the substance against OFPA criteria.

16 Thank you, Kyla.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

18 for Amy?

19 MEMBER BRUCH: I do know the 

20 petitioner. I believe he listed into our written 

21 comments, sorry, or oral comments. He didn't 

22 necessarily provide any written comments. But if 
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1 he's listening here today and has information 

2 that you can provide us, feel free. 

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip, go ahead.

4 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Amy, 

5 beautiful presentation and good information or 

6 petitioned survey. I'm curious, it's a synthetic 

7 substance, correct. 

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Uh-huh.

9 MEMBER NANDWANI: And there are some 

10 alternatives available as well in the slide. I 

11 think I noticed there are a few substances. So 

12 I'm curious to know that those substances are 

13 available as an alternative. 

14 How efficiently are oral petition 

15 surveys? Because my understanding is that we 

16 don't really encourage using synthetic substances

17 in organics. So if we have an alternative as a 

18 natural or maybe more effective, why petition 

19 survey is we are keeping that. I'm just curious 

20 to, you know, understand more. Thank you. 

21 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, absolutely. 

22 That's a good question. And that's something we 
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1 have to take into consideration with OFPA 

2 criteria, is the essentiality piece and looking 

3 at what products are available. I think when it 

4 comes to organic pest mitigation, multiple tools 

5 are helpful. Multiple modes of action are 

6 helpful. 

7 It does seem like, in terms of 

8 naturals, there was recommendations on the 

9 alternatives for planting certain varieties. 

10 Also your rotations are a big factor. And then 

11 getting into other substances, you know, there's 

12 biological controls, there are substances that 

13 are synthetics that are already on the National 

14 List. I think Brian's going to be reviewing at 

15 least one of them later on.

16 In the sulfur category, there's a lot 

17 of products that people are currently using that 

18 have sulfur as an active ingredient that's on our 

19 National List currently. And we're reviewing 

20 that. So there's kind of a myriad of natural 

21 alternatives currently, biological, synthetics 

22 that are approved on the National List. 
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1 So some members of the community ask 

2 about essentiality to this. Farmers are kind of 

3 on the other side of the equation saying they 

4 need additional tools outside of what's already 

5 approved to be used. 

6 Brian?

7 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. I'm going to 

8 put on my farmer hat for a minute and just say 

9 that it's very often the case, and I think it is 

10 the case for this product, that a lot of the 

11 natural alternatives are not nearly as effective 

12 as even the synthetics that are allowed. 

13 And I think we do have some pretty 

14 good synthetics. And I'm not sure about the 

15 entire range of diseases that potassium sorbate 

16 might be effective on. But for some of them, 

17 particularly powdery mildew that was mentioned 

18 is, in my mind, a pretty easy to disease to 

19 manage. 

20 But downy mildew and some of the other 

21 ones, for instance if we had some great products 

22 for late blight, that would be wonderful. And if 
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1 there is a lack of research, maybe it turns out 

2 that this product would be effective against late 

3 blight. We don't know. 

4 You know, that's sort of part of the 

5 whole picture for me. I am very much in favor of 

6 having tools in the tool box for farmers. But 

7 they need to be tools in the tool box that are 

8 not going to be health hazards or have 

9 questionable aspects to them in terms of the 

10 environment. You know, they have to go through 

11 the process.

12 Anyway, I just wanted to kind of, you 

13 know, look at it from that perspective. And in 

14 my mind, I think there are real questions about 

15 this one. And the fact that it can be 

16 re-petitioned with new data makes me feel like 

17 that's what I would like to see. 

18 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Brian. And, 

19 I mean, very quick this brings to my next kind of 

20 question. I hope you don't mind. Organic 

21 versus, sorry, natural versus synthetics.

22 So, if we have natural alternatives 
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1 available for a material which is synthetic, do 

2 we add or list them as a, with restriction of 

3 some annotation, some kind of that?

4 And at this point is this material, 

5 the potassium sorbate is just a synthetic, or 

6 having some listed as a restriction or something?

7 MEMBER BRUCH: I'm going to Kyla, our 

8 certifier for the technical information you need. 

9 You're making her work. That's good.

10 MEMBER NANDWANI: Sorry.

11 MEMBER SMITH: Sorry. Okay. So, at 

12 the beginning of 601 it does talk about certain 

13 uses in paragraph, that require that the practice 

14 standards at 206(a) through (d) are required to 

15 be used prior to using a synthetic on the 

16 National List.

17 So, if you read the paragraph between, 

18 like, you know, after the 601 listing, before it 

19 gets into the list, that's where those natural 

20 practices are required to be utilized.

21 So, I don't know that it would be 

22 necessary to restrict, or put a annotation or 
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1 restriction based on that paragraph.

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Kyla. This 

3 helps a lot. Yes, thank you.

4 MEMBER LEWIS: One of the elements in 

5 the write up that I'm particularly focused on is 

6 the, just sort of the registration history of the 

7 product.

8 So, I'll just sort of summarize it. 

9 It was a EPA registered pesticide until 1989. 

10 And then it was put onto, and then it's on List 

11 4, which is, you know, outdated. And that was a 

12 25(b) pesticide.

13 So, you can sort of read between the 

14 lines that, you know, when registrations get 

15 cancelled it's because folks aren't using it. 

16 There isn't a market for it potentially because 

17 of efficacy issues, you know.

18 These are assumptions I'm making. So, 

19 I'm not saying that I have evidence to support 

20 that. But there's a reason why it was not a 

21 popular pesticide in the conventional industry.

22 1989 is pretty early on in the 
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1 development of IPM. So, the piece that I'm sort 

2 of focusing on is like can it be part of a 

3 program? And that's the efficacy.

4 So, it's not just I have downy mildew. 

5 This is my solution for it. But can it be part 

6 of a broader, more complicated set of tools that 

7 then can combat a number of diseases, or be part 

8 of an IPM program? And that would be the kind of 

9 efficacy data I would want to see.

10 And then we get into a chicken and egg 

11 issue where if it's not allowed in organic, how 

12 can organic farmers test if on their crops, and 

13 see it's efficacy into IPM?

14 So, I tend to want to expand the 

15 toolbox for things that are fairly benign, to try 

16 to develop that. But also I know we need to be 

17 cautious.

18 So, I don't know if that's helpful, 

19 but sort of part of the elements that I'm 

20 thinking about in terms of whether or not it 

21 should be allowed.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Absolutely. 
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1 That's helpful information. And then there is, 

2 in NTR there was, there are some studies. But 

3 they're few and far between.

4 But in terms of efficacy it was 

5 comparing potassium sorbate with potassium

6 bicarbonate. So, understanding maybe the 

7 effectiveness of potassium bicarbonate in the 

8 field can also provide us additional insight with 

9 potassium sorbate.

10 But in public comments I did ask one 

11 commenter about efficacy data. There was the 

12 reference to, you know, the industry standards. 

13 And several people pointed that sulfur is kind of 

14 our main go to, and some of these other subset.

15 I don't know if it's part of the 

16 rotational multiple months of action. But it did 

17 seem like there was maybe more superiority with 

18 sulfur based products.

19 MEMBER QUARCOO: I have a follow-up to 

20 what Brian said earlier. In the petition it says 

21 that it was compared to conventional products in 

22 terms of efficacy.
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1 And while it's also scientific, but it 

2 was superior to that, and if that's way better 

3 than any of their organic alternatives. So I'm, 

4 it's, did they supply, did the petitioners supply 

5 data to support this efficacy information as in 

6 the petition?

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. That's a good 

8 point that you bring up. And that's what we're 

9 looking at is kind of parallel information to, 

10 you know, to support or not support that 

11 information in the petition, just independent 

12 data.

13 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Because the petition, 

15 you're right, did supply is with information. 

16 And we're just trying to reconcile that.

17 MEMBER QUARCOO: And in reference to 

18 what Nate said about if any farmers cannot test 

19 the product. Research institutions do that all 

20 the time.

21 The farm doesn't have to be certified 

22 organic. You can just test it somewhere. You 
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1 can also do it on an on-farm, as an on-farm 

2 research that it's not a certified product. But 

3 you can, we can still test that.

4 So this comes back to research 

5 institutions, and what they can do to supply us 

6 the data that we need to make some of our

7 decisions.

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Franklin. 

9 Also, thank you, Nate. Both of you guys just 

10 hitting the ground running. And I appreciate 

11 your comments. I'm glad you weighed in.

12 MEMBER PETREY: Amy, I have a quick 

13 question. And so, when we're saying it doesn't 

14 align with OFPA, that's because of the renewable, 

15 not made from renewable resources?

16 Because it like makes mention it is 

17 benign, that health concerns were not there. And 

18 then also mentioned it's affecting the soil where 

19 we kind of expected a big rebound, even though 

20 there might be some antimicrobial, you know, 

21 inherent properties of it.

22 It's similar to copper, similar to 
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1 sulfur, you know. And we add those in. Even 

2 similar to fumigants that we incorporate in the 

3 soil. But we do have, we do expect a rebound 

4 there. So, it does seem benign.

5 And so, is, what are the properties 

6 that it does not align with OFPA, you know, that 

7 may give us more hesitation for that?

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. And that's 

9 definitely something that we want to review as a 

10 full Board. The list that I provided that you 

11 just summarized --

12 MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: -- is kind of the 

14 initial list that we were tackling with crops. 

15 But definitely we need to kind of deliberate.

16 MEMBER PETREY: Okay.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: Deliberate specifically 

18 on. And your input from Farmers of the South, 

19 you know --

20 MEMBER PETREY: For sure.

21 MEMBER BRUCH: -- that could be real 

22 important to hear.
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1 MEMBER PETREY: That's right. And I 

2 need, yes, I need to look into that, and will do 

3 so. The diseases that it seems to have the most 

4 efficacy on, you know, are not things that I deal 

5 with, you know, and the insects that I deal with.

6 And so, usually I'm in very strong 

7 support of, you know, of fungicides, having those 

8 tools, because of the, you know, the area that we 

9 grow. And so, yes, I'll look into those areas.

10 I don't deal with powdery mildew or 

11 downy mildew on the crops that we grow in our 

12 area. So, I'll look into that.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Do you have spider 

14 mites down there?

15 MEMBER PETREY: There are, yes. And 

16 so, that's actually more common in what we would 

17 say plasticulture crops. It's like in the, I 

18 think in tomatoes or squash, or things like that.

19 We don't, I don't know whether it's 

20 because of overhead irrigation. It kind of, I 

21 think it alleviates some of the problems for 

22 spider mites.
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1 Usually plasticulture with drip I 

2 think has bigger issues with that. Usually get 

3 it in an arid times. And so, yes, when it'd dry 

4 you have that.

5 Also, we seem to see flare ups when 

6 you're using pyrethroids, you know, in 

7 conventional settings, because they're not 

8 controlled by those, a lot of the insecticides. 

9 And so, you will see kind of a rebound of the 

10 spider mites, you know, that come up.

11 But we don't have that in our crops. 

12 And so again, these are not things that I'm used 

13 to controlling that potassium sorbate is 

14 covering.

15 But I know that there's a lot of other 

16 growers that probably, you know, are having 

17 problems with these types. And I'll look into 

18 that.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you. That would 

20 be great. Is there any more discussion on 

21 potassium sorbate at this point in time. Brian, 

22 go ahead.
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1 MEMBER CALDWELL: Sorry to add another 

2 minute here. But just wanted to point out that I 

3 think there is a potential health question having 

4 to do with the interactions with nitrates in the 

5 digestive process, and that sort of thing.

6 So, it's not totally, it doesn't have 

7 a total, you know, green light in terms of health 

8 effects, the way I understand it.

9 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, absolutely. The 

10 breakdown products, at least sorbic acid and, 

11 let's see, what is it, nitrite, yes. We talked 

12 about that extensively in our Subcommittee.

13 There are some negative reactions 

14 between those two. And could have, the TR noted 

15 that there could be some accumulation in, well, 

16 the study that was done it was accumulation in 

17 rats. So, that could essentially be accumulation 

18 in the body.

19 Okay. Well, thank you for the 

20 discussion that we had here. And I think it's 

21 very clear to the community that if there is 

22 information, tests, studies that you have access 
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1 to, please send them our way as well.

2 We definitely want to be very 

3 collaborative, joint effort in evaluation of this 

4 petitioned substance. So, thank you very much.

5 Okay. I'll turn it back over to 

6 myself here. Sorry. Got a little silent there. 

7 We're going to go on to the next one. We're 

8 going to dive into our sunset process here.

9 I'm just going to pull up some 

10 information. We're going to start with reviewing 

11 alcohols. And public comments actually more or 

12 less aggregated their information about ethanol 

13 and isopropanol.

14 So, my plan is to review just the 

15 overall intro to both substances. But then 

16 aggregate the discussion on the comments. And 

17 then open it up to discussion with the full 

18 Board, if that's okay if we proceed that way. 

19 Okay.

20 All right. So, ethanol is listed at 

21 205.601, synthetic substances allowed for use in 

22 organic crop production. It's listed as an 
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1 algicide, disinfectant sanitizer, including 

2 irrigation system cleaning, irrigation system 

3 cleaning systems, alcohol and ethanol.

4 So, the use of ethanol. It's used in 

5 organic agriculture as an outside disinfectant, 

6 sanitizer, including irrigation system cleaning. 

7 Internationally it is accepted by all the 

8 individuals that, all the organizations that we 

9 review.

10 EPA issues, EPA considers ethanol to 

11 be practically nontoxic, based on acute oral and 

12 inhalation toxicity tests. Ethanol is 

13 biodegradable in the air, soil, and water.

14 The Crops Subcommittee noted that 

15 there is little to no environmental or human 

16 health impacts associated with the use.

17 Moving on to isopropanol. It's listed 

18 at 205.601, synthetic substances allowed for use 

19 in organic production. It's also listed as a 

20 algicide, disinfectant, and sanitizer, including 

21 irrigation systems, cleaning systems, alcohols, 

22 isopropanol.
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1 The review, the Subcommittee review on 

2 this material is that in agriculture isopropanol 

3 can used as listed. It's a broad spectrum 

4 antimicrobial activity against vegetative 

5 bacteria, viruses, and fungi.

6 For isopropyl, for isopropanol, sorry, 

7 isopropanol for international acceptance Canada 

8 and IFOAM provide guidance for isopropanol 

9 alcohol for its use in organic agriculture

10 For environmental issues the EPA 

11 considers isopropanol slightly toxic to 

12 practically nontoxic on acute oral and inhalation 

13 toxicity tests.

14 The commenter breakout, we had great 

15 participation with commenters about both of these 

16 substances. Four certifiers mentioned that they 

17 have a lot of certifying operations using this.

18 Eleven farmers/farmer advocacy 

19 groups/consultants supported this. One group was 

20 in support if NOSB investigated the availability 

21 of organic or non-synthetic alcohols.

22 Farm and farmer groups provided 
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1 examples of the use of these. One of the main 

2 ones was their tools and pruning shears to 

3 prevent the spread of diseases such as canker or 

4 fire blight when they're removing infected 

5 branches.

6 For drip irrigation lines they use 

7 these substances when their lines become clogged. 

8 And then for post-harvest handling it's used to 

9 sanitize and disinfect equipment.

10 When used as labeled the material does 

11 not necessarily pose a risk for health or 

12 environment. And it's not directly applied to 

13 edible organic fruits.

14 One commenter had concern that ethanol 

15 may be manufactured from ethylene or by 

16 fermentation. The use, the usual feedstock for 

17 fermentation is corn. So, there could be, 

18 genetic engineering could be an issue in this 

19 process.

20 The alternatives, there are some that 

21 exist, chlorine materials, so other sanitizers, 

22 non-synthetic ethanol, essential oils, and heat 
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1 treatment.

2 Many farmers say though that they 

3 prefer alcohols over chlorine materials, because 

4 chlorine materials can corrode their tools, their 

5 specialty tools, and the alcohols don't.

6 And I thought this was an interesting 

7 comments. It's more available in rural areas. 

8 Accessibility to these products are really 

9 important. And they're easily to be obtained.

10 Let's see. We did have one question 

11 to stakeholders about requiring organic produced 

12 ethanol, if sufficient quantities were available. 

13 And the comments about that question was, such a 

14 requirement would resolve in producers just 

15 switching from ethanol to isopropanol, because we 

16 were gearing that question directly to the use of 

17 ethanol.

18 And then it also brought up the bigger 

19 issue that we should discuss whether all crop 

20 input should be organically sourced, and have a 

21 bigger conversation, instead of just a la carte 

22 per substance.
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1 So, with that review I open it up to 

2 the Board. Yes, Logan.

3 MEMBER PETREY: Yes. And on that 

4 specifically, something that really caught my eye 

5 was the compost and manures. It would have to be 

6 organically produced, which would kind of just 

7 shut us down for a little bit. So, that's how 

8 big opening that can of worms would be if we did 

9 that.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, absolutely. It's 

11 a pretty broad based question when you dive into 

12 it. Okay. Any other discussion on alcohols?

13 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Just that this will 

14 also come back up in livestock later on.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks for that 

16 preview. Let's see. Okay. We are going to 

17 table sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate until after 

18 lunch. We'll tackle this one after lunch. This 

19 is one of many substances.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're going to 

21 do that with hydrated lime as well.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just bump hers to 

2 the end, yes.

3 MEMBER BRUCH: She is listening. But 

4 it will be a more effective discussion with her 

5 present. So, we are moving to newspaper, other 

6 recycled paper without glossy or colored inks.

7 And this is listed at 205.601(b) as 

8 herbicide, weed barrier as applicable to mulches 

9 and (I) newspaper or other recycled material 

10 without glossy or colored inks. I'll turn it 

11 over to you, Wood.

12 MEMBER TURNER: Thanks. There's a, 

13 there's actually two listings. And I'll just go 

14 ahead and suggest that we have this conversation 

15 at the same time. One is at (b) herbicides, weed 

16 barriers as applicable. And the other one is at 

17 (c) as compost feedstocks.

18 So, yes, I was really interested in 

19 the written comments on this material. And 

20 really appreciated the community kind of leaning 

21 in on this question. Because I think it raises 

22 some interesting issues.
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1 In both cases we're talking about 

2 paper that's essentially, I mean, newspaper or 

3 other recycled paper that's essentially been 

4 repurposed to support weed suppression in one 

5 usage, and as a compost feedstock in the other 

6 case.

7 And, you know, I think as outlined in 

8 the write-up, I think one of the biggest issues 

9 that comes up in this particular case is related 

10 to the inks associated with the recycled paper.

11 Historically black inks have been, 

12 have migrated to sort of more water based 

13 materials. So, they're not entirely solvent 

14 free. But on the glossy and colored ink side of 

15 things it's a much different question.

16 And so it raises a number of issues 

17 related to, and certainly as the listing 

18 outlines, you know, the listing allows for the 

19 use of the material without glossy or colored 

20 inks.

21 That said, I think there was a lot of 

22 comments about, you know, whether you can 
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1 adequately sort of keep the adverse impacts from 

2 those glossy and colored inks out of usage.

3 It's pretty hard to, and I certainly 

4 appreciate any view from others on this. It's 

5 pretty hard to perfectly regulate the use of that 

6 material.

7 We do see some usage of, some 

8 permitted use of this, well, permitted use of 

9 recycled paper without glossy paper or colored 

10 ink somewhere in Canada. No other specifications 

11 internationally.

12 There's been a lot of discussion over 

13 the years. There's a 2017 TR on this that 

14 outlines a lot of these kinds of issues. And 

15 after the 2017 TR the Subcommittee and ultimately 

16 the Board unanimously decided to sort of continue 

17 with both of these, continue to relist the 

18 material.

19 I would say on the, and I think this 

20 does seem to fall into sort of our larger 

21 conversations about keeping a closer eye, and 

22 understanding in more depth the PFAS issue, and 
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1 sort of whether or not we can sort of ensure that 

2 that doesn't have adverse impacts on organic or 

3 the organic sort of ecosystem.

4 That said, a lot of support for the 

5 material, maintaining this listing as it's 

6 currently articulated. We heard from a number of 

7 certifiers who supported it, saying it's 

8 something that's very important to users. And 

9 they're seeing a lot of, it's showing up on, it's 

10 showing up in many organic systems.

11 We had support from growers who 

12 supported the use of the material. Trade 

13 associations supported the use of the material. 

14 Although I, and I'll just sort of continue with 

15 the, sort of the breadth of opinions.

16 There were, the category that I would 

17 consider to be not opposed to the material. But 

18 I think one retailer in particular asked a series 

19 of questions that would sort of I think push the 

20 conversation a little bit further, which I 

21 thought were quite interesting.

22 There was one opposition to the 
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1 material from a nonprofit organization that 

2 encouraged opposition to the relisting, or 

3 opposed the relisting. But suggested that the 

4 Committee should continue to work on the 

5 material.

6 I think the quote was, whether 

7 there's, to address whether there's a way for 

8 growers and certifiers to identify sources of 

9 recycled paper that are compatible with organic 

10 principles.

11 Complicated work agenda item for sure. 

12 But certainly worth considering. So, I 

13 definitely appreciated the breadth of feedback on 

14 this material. And would welcome any discussion 

15 others might have on the topic.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian.

17 MEMBER CALDWELL: So, Wood, thanks for 

18 that. A lot of these materials are much more 

19 nuanced and complicated than they look, or then 

20 they seem at first glance.

21 And I'm thinking that paper, what we 

22 call paper now is quite different than it was in 
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1 the '70s and '80s when organic producers were 

2 using this, and recyclers were doing a lot with 

3 it, and everything.

4 And one of the things I'm concerned 

5 about, well, first of all you mentioned PFAS. 

6 And I think there was a recent study saying that 

7 some newspapers did have, carry PFAS. I don't 

8 know how much.

9 But then, the other thing is, I get 

10 all this stuff in the mail. And it's like, the 

11 paper is like plasticized or something. And it 

12 might not be even a glossy color or something. 

13 But it just doesn't feel like sort of old 

14 fashioned paper.

15 And I'm just wondering are there, are 

16 we worried about, you know, plastic fibers or 

17 somehow reinforced paper? I don't even know what 

18 this stuff is. But it just seems like there's a 

19 lot more going on with paper than there used to 

20 be.

21 MEMBER TURNER: I don't have any real 

22 comment there. I mean, technically the paper 
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1 that's allowed to be used is the non-glossy 

2 paper, the non-coat, the paper without coating.

3 So, you know, again, I can't speak 

4 necessarily to the certifier sort of world in 

5 terms of what they're actually seeing on the 

6 ground.

7 But the feedback from certifiers has 

8 suggested that it's in wide use, and they're 

9 seeing it. It's still something that, as listed 

10 the material is important, was notable to me. 

11 But I totally agree with the point you're making.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, and then 

13 Allison.

14 MEMBER LEWIS: Just to clarify. Can 

15 we talk about the compost feedstock thing as 

16 well? Are we doing those both at the same time?

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

18 MEMBER TURNER: Yes. Happy to, I 

19 mean, I, to me they're, I --

20 MEMBER LEWIS: Yes, okay.

21 MEMBER TURNER: Same concept. But I'm 

22 happy to have any questions you have on compost 
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1 feedstock.

2 MEMBER LEWIS: Yes. So, I think just, 

3 this has always been what I, a little bit, sort 

4 of problematic to me. Because composters 

5 generally don't use paper as a feedstock, but 

6 rather as a sort of incidental accompaniment to 

7 whatever it is that they're taking in as a 

8 feedstock.

9 So, that's nuanced, and maybe parsing 

10 out the regulation. And maybe that's just an 

11 issue in my brain.

12 But I'm curious if there's discussion, 

13 or if there's room for discussion at the Crops 

14 Subcommittee about what the risk is in the 

15 compost.

16 You know, once the composting is 

17 occurring what's at the back end? Is there a 

18 contamination concern in the compost? Is there 

19 the testing that we need to do?

20 Many states do have a heavy metals 

21 test for compost. And so, I think those are, 

22 those elements are covered. But are there other 
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1 contamination concerns that may be worth looking 

2 at as a way to maybe start at the back end and 

3 move upstream to see what sort of restrictions we 

4 may or may not need on these materials.

5 MEMBER TURNER: Great point. Not to 

6 touch the issue that Logan just raised on 

7 compost. But it sort of begs the same question, 

8 right. I mean, is it, what's coming out the back 

9 end? And sort of how do we work back from that. 

10 So, that's a good point. It's a really good 

11 point.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison.

13 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks. And then I 

14 think Franklin had his hand up. Is cardboard 

15 covered here? I see the note about glues, 

16 adhesive waxes. But I didn't see the word 

17 cardboard. And I was curious whether that is 

18 here.

19 You hear a lot about like sheet 

20 mulching with cardboard. And folks are doing 

21 kind of smaller scale start up type stuff. And 

22 I'm just trying to understand whether that's 
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1 within the realm here.

2 MEMBER TURNER: I don't, I'll ask 

3 Jared on that. I don't, I'm not, I don't think 

4 cardboard is contemplated here.

5 MR. CLARK: Nor do I.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin.

7 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes. In the report I 

8 see a blanket statement that talks about progress 

9 towards less toxic materials used in inks.

10 That's so broad. Are we going to just 

11 assume that there's a general progress towards 

12 these less toxic inks, and then make a decision?

13 And then there are different sources 

14 of paper. Plus, there's a lot of advance work 

15 done in material science. And now you look at 

16 the material, you can't always be sure what has 

17 been used to make that material.

18 So my question is, if we say there's 

19 been that move towards less toxic materials, I 

20 don't think that applies to all the paper that is 

21 being made, and all the inks that are being used.

22 So, does that not put us at the risk 
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1 where we might be allowing things that under 

2 normal circumstances we wouldn't, if we didn't 

3 put it on this broad category?

4 MEMBER TURNER: Love that. Love that 

5 comment. I think it's great, Franklin. And I 

6 agree with you. I think that's a blanket 

7 statement about a move in, as I mentioned, black 

8 inks that are, have, are more and more water 

9 based, more and more vegetable based. Less so on 

10 the colored ink side.

11 So there is, that's a fair point. 

12 There's some conflation I think here in some of 

13 the, in some of the write up that I should fix, 

14 and would benefit from your input on that in the 

15 Subcommittee.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry.

17 MEMBER D'AMORE: Franklin, I agree 

18 with you entirely. The only question I would ask 

19 then of the group here is, if it's not used, what 

20 replaces it? And that, you know, I, it's not a 

21 theoretical question.

22 But it's a question that maybe we just 
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1 don't, can't answer right here. But is it 

2 probable that it might be replaced with something 

3 that's quite a bit worse? So, that's where I 

4 would go at this point, just asking that 

5 question.

6 MEMBER TURNER: Totally fair. And I 

7 do feel like I'd love to hear more nuance from 

8 the certifier community about what it is they're 

9 actually seeing, and how they're actually --

10 There is, there seems to be pretty 

11 broad support in the certifier community. But I 

12 don't, I mean, does that mean we're looking at 

13 every piece of newspaper that's been on the 

14 ground, and seeing exactly how much colored ink 

15 might be on those sheets of paper or not? I 

16 mean, that's a complicated thing.

17 And I don't know any newspaper today 

18 that doesn't use colored ink. So, if you're 

19 using any newspaper you're using colored ink on 

20 some, to some degree. So, that's a totally fair 

21 point.

22 And I, there needs to be some nuance. 
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1 I know, I recognize that certifiers don't really 

2 want to take positions on these kinds of issues. 

3 And are sort of listing, you know, listing 

4 users, folks that are using these in their OSPs 

5 are listing these materials in their OSPs.

6 But on some level I think it's helpful 

7 for us to understand exactly what it looks like 

8 on the ground, in terms of how to, you know, how 

9 to regulate.

10 MEMBER D'AMORE: Well, you're right. 

11 And the whole discussion around what are the 

12 alternatives. It stems in, for me in having 

13 worked for six years trying to get a clamshell 

14 that was recyclable.

15 And being, and everybody really happy, 

16 happy, happy. Yes, we got it. And then the end 

17 of the day the glue that applied the label to the 

18 clamshell negated the whole dang thing. It was 

19 over. There's no discussion. They wouldn't take 

20 it.

21 So that's the reason I ask now. 

22 Because in my mind back then even it was sort of 
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1 like, gosh and gee whiz, you got something here. 

2 And, you know, what is the alternative? So 

3 anyway, thank you. And to Brian's point, it's 

4 complicated.

5 MEMBER CALDWELL: It's nuanced.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just building on 

7 that, Wood. Did you glean any information about 

8 how common is this product being used? And in 

9 what sort of scale of application?

10 Not to lose the forest for the trees, 

11 is this something that, you know, these questions

12 are representing, you know, a large material 

13 contamination? And if we don't figure it out, or 

14 is it who's using this? And I didn't see the 

15 answer. But I didn't know if you had --

16 MEMBER TURNER: No, I don't know the 

17 answer to that. That's a good question. But I 

18 feel like that's a clear, that's a question that 

19 we could articulate for further feedback in the 

20 next few months.

21 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes. It's mostly not 

22 used by itself. It will go under a weed mat. 
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1 And so again, in terms of an inspection process I 

2 have no idea how that would go.

3 But in the berry world, in the, 

4 particularly the blueberry world it is widely 

5 used. But you don't see it, because it's tucked 

6 under a weed mat, or used in another, in a form 

7 that is not highly visible.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian.

9 MEMBER CALDWELL: Just one quick 

10 comment about that. And it was mentioned the 

11 other day in some comments. And that is the 

12 paper pot products.

13 I believe they use recycled paper in 

14 one of their constituents. So that would be, and 

15 we approved that, you know, thinking that paper 

16 was quite benign basically, or recycled paper.

17 And the other place I'm thinking might 

18 be in municipal composts. And I don't know, 

19 Kyla, maybe you would be able to tell us. Do 

20 people, are people allowed, are growers allowed 

21 to use municipal type of compost? Yes, okay. So 

22 that might be another one.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sorry, Kyla, then 

2 Nate.

3 MEMBER SMITH: Yes. I was going to 

4 just say that when I was looking at the certifier 

5 comments to see, you know, based on their numbers 

6 provided. It seems to be a little all over the 

7 place, you know.

8 Like, I know PCO didn't have a lot 

9 that, I think we just had like one. So, anyway 

10 interesting. I did see, Nate, I think you had 

11 asked about types of producers.

12 I think one certifier had reporter 

13 smaller scale producers. What type of crops, 

14 they didn't say that. But I did, scale might be 

15 a factor. And, Allison, you had asked about 

16 cardboard. OMRI does list cardboard for this 

17 use.

18 MEMBER LEWIS: And I'll just add a 

19 dataset of one that my OSP includes cardboard. 

20 And there is a restriction that says no glossy or 

21 colored ink. So, okay. Thanks.

22 Well, that's not in the annotation, 
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1 right. The annotation always says glossy colored 

2 inks. So glues are not part of the restriction 

3 there.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So, to beef up 

5 that dataset, maybe the community could provide 

6 some, if you have any data on the application of 

7 this material. I think we'd all benefit from 

8 that.

9 MEMBER TURNER: Absolutely.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: All right. That was 

11 great discussion. Thank you, Wood. Thanks, 

12 everybody.

13 MEMBER TURNER: Not sure what to do, 

14 but it's going to be interesting for sure.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. All right. And I 

16 did advance the screen so everybody could see the 

17 second listing. And thank you for noting that, 

18 Wood, also.

19 So, we'll be moving on to plastic 

20 mulch next. So, this one is listed at 205.601 

21 synthetic substances allowed for use in organic 

22 crop production, (b) as herbicides, weed barriers 
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1 as applicable to mulches.

2 And (ii) would be plastic mulch and 

3 covers, petroleum based other than polyvinyl 

4 chloride, PVC. Logan, I'll turn it over to you.

5 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you. Might be 

6 the alternative that Jerry was mentioning also. 

7 But anyway, so yes, this material has multiple 

8 functions, including warming soils, a weed 

9 barrier, soil fertility, and water retention, 

10 pest management, and tunnel production.

11 They're manufactured by melting 

12 polyethylene resin pellets intended to actually 

13 make the shape, the width that's needed.

14 Many commenters support the relisting 

15 of this material, but asking for the research of 

16 the biodegradable biobased mulch in conjunction 

17 with their support.

18 For example, a commenter said, we 

19 support the continued listing of plastic mulch 

20 and covers. We support this continued listing 

21 while simultaneously anxiously waiting for the 

22 biodegradable biobased mulch film.
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1 Another commenter saying, we suggest 

2 that the NOSB and organic community develop a 

3 plan to establish priorities for the reduction of 

4 plastic use down the road, while recognizing that 

5 in some uses it is essential at this time.

6 In the meantime we support the 

7 relisting of this product. Also when we discuss, 

8 you know, what, who are the producers that use 

9 newspapers and, you know, things of that, I think 

10 it would be interesting to ask certifiers to list 

11 maybe the acres or the amount of producers that 

12 are using plastic mulch.

13 We do talk about it a lot. It comes 

14 up. And just wondering how much of an impact 

15 this product really is on the organic industry, 

16 how much food it actually does produce. I think 

17 that that would be interesting, to be able to 

18 identify how many acres is using this type of 

19 material.

20 I mean, it's enough to be able to give 

21 it like a subset name. It's called plasticulture 

22 farming. I mean, it's got to be significant. 
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1 And we need to understand that when we're looking 

2 at the research for the biodegradable biobased 

3 mulch. How much of that impact, you know, is 

4 coming?

5 And, because this is, you know, a 

6 concern for our stakeholders, you know, the 

7 plastics. And how are we going to, there was a 

8 commenter that mentioned a phase out, you know. 

9 How are we going to handle this long term?

10 This will sunset again, and it will 

11 come back up. So, I think if we can get an idea 

12 of how many acres and which crops. Not just, you 

13 know, if we do acres overall it's going to look 

14 relatively small compared to all the grain and, 

15 you know, the row crop commodity, which are, you 

16 know, are huge.

17 But if we can look at it maybe on the 

18 per crop basis, or how that is. But anyway, so I 

19 -- again, we talk about this product a lot. But 

20 I'm going to open it up to anybody for questions. 

21 Yes, Nate.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate.
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1 MEMBER PETREY: Oh, I'm sorry. Nate, 

2 you got it.

3 MEMBER LEWIS: I think that point you 

4 brought up, Logan, is important to consider if we 

5 do move forward with something around 

6 communication with NASS. So, that would be 

7 really important data that they could collect at 

8 a future survey. I just wanted to note that.

9 And also note that biodegradable 

10 biobased mulch as it currently is listed is not 

11 actually an available product. So, it's not 

12 something that people can use.

13 It's not something that can actually 

14 replace some of these acres. And I think that 

15 just needs to be stated again and again, that 

16 that product that we have listed doesn't exist.

17 MEMBER PETREY: That's right. Doesn't 

18 exist. And there's still contention around that 

19 in itself.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood.

21 MEMBER TURNER: Logan, I'm wondering, 

22 there was one commenter that sort of this cycle 
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1 several times in the comments wrote that under 

2 OFPA all of these listings should say 

3 specifically what is the condition.

4 What is the use of the material? What 

5 is it, how is it, how should it be applied? What 

6 is the use? And the lack of specificity around 

7 some of these listings is problematic in that 

8 reviewer's perspective.

9 And I'm just wondering, do you feel 

10 like that would be a, something like that would 

11 help this particular listing? And then you sort 

12 of alluded to it in your comments.

13 But I'm just wondering, like is this 

14 an example of one where, you know, we're all 

15 hearing about, we're all thinking about this 

16 plastic issue, and how to rein this in, how to 

17 figure out what to do about it.

18 Is one of the ways to do it, one way 

19 is, is one of the ways to think about it, to just 

20 start to get really specific about the conditions 

21 within which we're talking about allowing these 

22 for this material. I don't know.
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1 MEMBER PETREY: Sure. Do you mean as 

2 like adding annotations for it? Or maybe in the 

3 OSP --

4 MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

5 MEMBER PETREY: -- getting something 

6 that --

7 MEMBER TURNER: I was thinking 

8 annotation. But, yes.

9 MEMBER PETREY: Annotation. Yes. So 

10 some people really love annotations. And some 

11 people are really hesitant to add a lot of 

12 annotations to it.

13 So, yes, I guess we can discuss that 

14 and see if maybe that is part of, I don't want to 

15 say phase out. But maybe that's part of how we 

16 can progress with this material.

17 And that, whether it's looking at 

18 certifiers, you know, whether they can have 

19 restrictions, or that looking at the need basis 

20 for their user.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla.

22 MEMBER SMITH: Yes. Wood, I was going 
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1 to respond to your comment about that comment in 

2 several comments. And so, I believe that the 

3 reference in OFPA is 75, or 64.17, sorry.

4 And it says, like in (b) the content 

5 of the list, the list established under 

6 Subsection A shall contain and itemized by 

7 specific use or application of each synthetic 

8 substance permitted under Subsection C(1), or 

9 each natural substance permitted under Subsection 

10 C(2).

11 And so, the crops list is divided by 

12 use. So, I think, I mean, my interpretation is 

13 the way that the current crops list is 

14 categorized satisfies that condition in OFPA.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Kyla. It 

16 sounds like more of a macro, macro definition 

17 than potentially -- Okay. I did have a question. 

18 A question that --

19 MEMBER TURNER: Thank you for saying 

20 that.

21 MEMBER BRUCH: Oh, no problem. I 

22 actually had the same question. And I talked to 
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1 my table mate here prior to the meeting start on 

2 that. But it was a good one to bring forth to 

3 the community.

4 Logan, I did have a question for you. 

5 Just for maybe understanding, we did ask the 

6 question on removal of these substances. And for 

7 seasonal crops, I mean, I think that's somewhat 

8 intuitive on removal.

9 But for trees and things like that, 

10 these used in, these plastic mulches used in 

11 orchards, do we have an idea of the removal of 

12 those plastics? I saw longevity could be, there 

13 was another comment on the ten or 12 years. So 

14 --

15 MEMBER PETREY: Right.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

17 MEMBER PETREY: And I know that 

18 plastics are manufactured depending on how long 

19 you want, you kind of want that in the ground. 

20 We might have to move that over to Jerry. Do you 

21 have any, because I am not a perennial crop 

22 farmer, and don't have that. And so, no, I don't 
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1 have that.

2 But I'm glad you mentioned the 

3 question that we have. I didn't see a reference 

4 to that. It was more everybody saying, no, we 

5 remove it all, you know. Everybody was saying, 

6 no, we get it done. But, Jerry, do you have 

7 anything to that?

8 MEMBER D'AMORE: I can't be more 

9 helpful than what you just said.

10 MEMBER PETREY: Okay. No, I'll look 

11 into it, Amy, over the summer.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate.

13 MEMBER LEWIS: I can provide a little 

14 bit of insight from Washington --

15 MEMBER PETREY: Oh, thank you.

16 MEMBER LEWIS: -- in the tree fruit 

17 industry that, from my understanding the use of 

18 heavier weed mats, which might be in multiple 

19 seasons is not a typical practice.

20 There certainly might be some orchards 

21 that are doing that. But the typical use of 

22 plastic mulches for sort of seasonal weed 
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1 control, or light reflection, or various other 

2 purposes like that, which are, you know, similar 

3 to annual crops removed, are easily removable, 

4 but potentially could be reused year, after year, 

5 after year.

6 MEMBER PETREY: Okay. Thank you.

7 MEMBER QUARCOO: Now, there's been a 

8 lot of talk and research about biodegradable 

9 biobased mulch. But you talk to some farmers, 

10 and I don't know whether there are variations of 

11 them.

12 You talk to some farmers, especially 

13 in hot regions. They say it doesn't last through 

14 the years. They put that mat out there. Within 

15 a short time weeds are poking out.

16 And so, this plastic thing, 

17 considering there's micro plastics in everything, 

18 it will have to be dealt with at some point if we 

19 keep kicking it down the line.

20 So, what work is going into making 

21 sure that there's alternatives? We just don't 

22 say we have developed an alternative. But 
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1 farmers find it useful. It works for them for 

2 the purpose of which it was made.

3 MEMBER PETREY: Yes. So, the 

4 biodegradable biobased mulch, we did have the, in 

5 the fall we changed to the 80 percent, which we, 

6 as Nate said, we do not have that product yet.

7 And you're right. There are, for 

8 people who have used it, the conventional 

9 farmers. And compared to the plastic mulch, from 

10 what I've experienced plastic mulch users are 

11 expecting two seasons out of that, out of the 

12 film.

13 And so they'll, they may put it down 

14 for a high value crop in the spring, like a 

15 tomato or a pepper. And then it kind of lasts 

16 all summer there. And then they get rid of the 

17 crop.

18 And then they plant into it with a 

19 lesser value crop, maybe squash, or something to 

20 try and get the benefit of that, of what's 

21 remaining of that, of the plastic. And so 

22 they'll use it for maybe a full year, or even 
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1 more than that.

2 Whereas, from what I understood from 

3 organic farmers that are using plastic mulch, 

4 they're removing at the end of every season 

5 because the weed, it isn't keeping the weeds 

6 back. There are holes. There are tears, things 

7 that happen. And so, they're not getting multi 

8 seasons out of one type.

9 So, the biodegradable biobased mulch, 

10 if it does decompose that, from what I understand 

11 from plastic farmers, that's okay. Because they 

12 are removing it at the end of the season. 

13 They're not counting on it, you know, helping 

14 through the next season.

15 So, farmers that were using it were 

16 very eager to, even though they've done maybe 

17 some trialing on the conventional round, they 

18 were eager for this technology to come on so that 

19 they didn't have to deal with the plastic and the 

20 trash and, you know, as the recycling is really 

21 difficult for it.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Any more discussion for 
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1 Logan? Thank you, Logan, so much. Appreciate 

2 it. All right, Brian, you're up. This is 

3 aqueous potassium silicate. It is listed, 

4 there's two listings for it. Would you like to 

5 combine those listings?

6 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. I'll read those 

8 in the record then. Okay. So we have it listed 

9 at 205.601 synthetic substances allowed for use 

10 in organic crop production (e) as insecticides, 

11 including, let's see, acaricides, I'm assuming, 

12 or mite control. Sorry, I'm not familiar with 

13 that word as much.

14 Two, aqueous potassium silicate. The 

15 silica used in the manufacture of potassium 

16 silicate must be sourced from naturally occurring 

17 sand.

18 And it's also listed as aqueous 

19 potassium silicate under plant disease control 

20 (I). So that is, the silica used in the 

21 manufacture of potassium silicate must be sourced 

22 from naturally occurring sand. Brian, I will 
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1 turn it over to you.

2 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great. Thanks, Amy. 

3 I'll continue our deep dive into materials here. 

4 So, yes. This product is used for disease and 

5 arthropod management.

6 In the sort of background literature, 

7 including the original technical review it's 

8 considered quite benign. It's exempt from 

9 residue tolerance. It's considered nonhazardous 

10 to the public. These are sort of quotes from the 

11 TR.

12 In terms of the health environment 

13 impacts were considered negligible. It was 

14 nontoxic or/and has a low hazard profile. 

15 However, there were some questions about it.

16 And in the previous review some of the 

17 commenters were pointing to the, I think it's a 

18 2014 TR, which talked about sort of strange 

19 effects on the plants. That it might make the 

20 plants less digestible, less palatable, and that 

21 sort of thing.

22 And I did a little bit of digging into 
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1 the literatures, and looked at some of the 

2 studies that were referenced in that TR.

3 And it turns out that actually a lot 

4 of them, well basically all of them that had 

5 these really sort of questionable and bizarre, 

6 also growth anomalies of the plants, those were 

7 studies that were done in water solution 

8 hydroponic environments where they would actually 

9 add silicate solution to the growing water 

10 medium, and at much higher levels than would ever 

11 be experienced by the plant in a spray kind of 

12 situation.

13 So, they were sort of really not 

14 looking at the same thing that we're talking 

15 about here with using a product as a pest 

16 control.

17 And similarly there was, in terms of 

18 palatability and digestibility, particularly to 

19 livestock, one of the studies just noted that as 

20 livestock feed became over mature, was harvested 

21 at different dates and became over mature, it was 

22 less, it higher silica levels in it, and was less 
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1 palatable. And they were sort of making a 

2 correlation there.

3 Again, it was unfortunate to me that 

4 that stuff was in the TR. Because it really was 

5 not relevant to the products that were being 

6 looked at.

7 So, I just wanted to point out that I 

8 tried to do some due diligence and really look at 

9 these questions that were raised in this review.

10 A new TR was requested. It was very 

11 thorough. And one of the questions that it asked 

12 was, tried to look at was whether there were 

13 hazards to the applicator, particularly a spray 

14 applicator.

15 If you're spraying a silica type 

16 substance, and it's in really dry conditions, and 

17 the water droplets are evaporating, would there 

18 be a chance that you would actually be, the 

19 applicator could be inhaling, you know, tiny sort 

20 of dust particles of this product.

21 And they did some calculations and 

22 projections on that and said, no, that is not an 
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1 issue. That the size of the particles and the 

2 droplets of water was such that they would, the 

3 particles would always be retained in water 

4 droplets. And they would make to the plant. So, 

5 that was good to know.

6 But there was one issue that did come 

7 out. And I think needs a closer look. And that 

8 is that when this product, when aqueous potassium 

9 silicate is sprayed at certain PHs, lower PHs, 

10 the actual, this product, this material is 

11 actually a, it's not a liquid, it's not a solid. 

12 It's a glass.

13 And a lot of times in water solutions 

14 it doesn't really dissolve. It makes a gel. So 

15 there are these, you know, it's a little bit 

16 different than the way we usually think of a 

17 dissolved product, or a typical spray material.

18 And so, what were referenced several 

19 times in the new TR was that some of it goes into 

20 nanoparticle gel form within the droplets. And 

21 again, in my mind it's like, okay, well, what 

22 does that mean, you know, is this a problem or 
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1 not?

2 And I just don't know. So, I think 

3 that any kind of input from the community would 

4 be great. And we will be looking at that as we 

5 move forward.

6 But just to sum up quickly. In terms 

7 of relisting on our written comments, four were

8 in favor of relisting, one was opposed, and one I 

9 couldn't really figure out whether it was opposed 

10 or in favor.

11 CCOF noted that 214 of their growers 

12 use this material. And the growers who were, 

13 commented in favor of it were pretty enthusiastic 

14 about it.

15 So, and I clear, total disclosure, I 

16 use it myself. I think it's awesome. And I use 

17 it in combination with potassium bicarbonate, 

18 which is one of the materials that was mentioned 

19 earlier here. And it, you know, it's great.

20 So, yes. I think that's, I'm open for 

21 comments on that.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 
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1 Brian?

2 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes. I was just 

3 looking at the comments from the certifiers. And 

4 some like seemed to combine the reporting, and 

5 some seemed to split out the reporting from the 

6 use.

7 And it seemed like from my read that 

8 perhaps it's being more widely used as the 

9 insecticide listing versus the plant disease 

10 control it seemed. However CCOF did say 

11 fungicide insecticide and miticide.

12 So, I guess I was just wondering, I 

13 don't know, if there is, if it's more, it's 

14 prevalently being used in one listing versus the 

15 other?

16 MEMBER CALDWELL: Right, yes. That's 

17 a great question. And I don't know the answer. 

18 I didn't, wasn't able to parse that out. I use 

19 it as a fungicide myself.

20 And I think it's really interesting 

21 that so many of the materials we looked at can 

22 have affects as plant growth promoters, 
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1 insecticides, fungicides.

2 You know, they're doing multiple 

3 things to the plant organism. And I think that 

4 that's fascinating. And sometimes I even 

5 hesitate to tease it apart. But I don't know 

6 that specific answer.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, 

8 Brian. Really appreciate that thorough review. 

9 Thank you. All right. Elemental sulfur is next. 

10 This was pre-programmed. So okay. Okay. Never 

11 mind. All right. We'll continue forward.

12 Elemental sulfur. So we're going to 

13 be reviewing the listing at 205.601 synthetic 

14 substances allowed for use in organic crop 

15 production.

16 And this is, this has three particular 

17 listings. I'm going to review all the listings 

18 at once, review the comments. And then we'll 

19 open it up to discussion.

20 So, this is listed, 5, elemental 

21 sulfur (I) as plant disease control, 10 elemental 

22 sulfur (j) as plant or soil amendment. And 2, 
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1 elemental sulfur. So, basically we're looking at 

2 it as a soil amendment, plant disease control, 

3 and an insecticide.

4 Currently, I guess we'll dive into 

5 manufacture. Currently the primary source of 

6 elemental sulfur is produced as a byproduct of 

7 natural gas or petroleum operations in refinery 

8 processes.

9 International acceptance all across 

10 the board. The three uses that we're reviewing 

11 here are accepted. Environmental challenges, the 

12 2018 technical report confirmed no new 

13 information contradicting historical information 

14 that characterizes sulfur as an important and 

15 relatively safe material for organic agriculture.

16 And then, although low and acute 

17 toxicity, sulfur is a respiratory, ocular, and 

18 dermal irritant that can significantly impact 

19 farm worker health. And farm worker exposure can 

20 be mitigated if label recommendations and proper 

21 PPE recommendations are followed.

22 Getting into the discussion, there was 
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1 some great participation with our member 

2 community. And the majority of commenters were 

3 in favor of this, of relisting for all three 

4 substances. And I'll review some concerns as we 

5 go. There was a few concerns expressed.

6 But in general the use of elemental 

7 sulfur in organic crop production is one of the 

8 cornerstones in our farming operation. 

9 Alternatives to elemental sulfur do not provide 

10 the same level of control, and are not compatible 

11 with other materials used during the growing 

12 season.

13 Sulfur has been known and used as a 

14 pesticide since very early times, as it has been 

15 a part of the National List since the inception, 

16 since 1995. So, it's a commonly used and very 

17 familiar substance.

18 And then there was a comment, just a 

19 general comment. To remove this material would 

20 be, or if this material was removed hundreds if 

21 not thousands of acres would be reduced out of 

22 organic crop production. So, they were 
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1 indicating just the vitalness of having this as a 

2 substance.

3 And again, it was primarily across the 

4 board. We got good distribution for comments in 

5 support of it continuing with soil amendment. 

6 Just saying deficiency in sulfur will affect 

7 plant protein, synthesis, structure, and 

8 chlorophyll production, making it an important 

9 concern for producing high quality crops.

10 As an insecticide a primary means to 

11 control spider mites. They, the commenters also 

12 mentioned that it's the work horse of a 

13 integrated pest management plan.

14 For diseases. It helps control 

15 powdery mildew and a variety of different other 

16 diseases, brown rot, apple scab, and fire blight.

17 A few commenters that had concerns 

18 surrounded mainly the issue of health 

19 environmental impacts. The drift of dust may be 

20 harmful to humans, plants, and aquatic systems.

21 And since much of the sulfur is being 

22 derived from scrubbing from the burning of fossil 
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1 fuels there could be the heavy metal 

2 contamination associated with this product.

3 There was a group that wanted clear 

4 annotations. They actually recommend three. I 

5 know that's out of the scope of what we're going 

6 to be doing today with the sunset review.

7 But their annotation requests 

8 surrounded specific use, the worker protection, 

9 and then some kind of limits on heavy metal 

10 contamination.

11 We did ask one question to the 

12 community about how often wettable formulations 

13 were being used. Because in prior Board 

14 conversation that was a comment that was 

15 mentioned, that there are multiple formulations 

16 of sulfur.

17 And this was really interesting from 

18 the community, and really insightful. One 

19 commenter said they supported it 100 percent, 

20 just because of reducing dust, eliminating dust. 

21 And then therefore reducing respiratory issues.

22 However, some groups, farmer groups 
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1 mentioned that having both combinations, they 

2 work in tandem, both the dusting applications of 

3 sulfur and the wettable applications of sulfur.

4 They have different efficacies. And 

5 dusting is preferred over wettable sulfur for 

6 powdery mildew. More thorough coverage during 

7 application than the wettable sulfur. When fruit 

8 is present it can increase the risk of residue on 

9 the fruit. So, that was really great insight on 

10 that.

11 There was specialty equipment that 

12 some fruit producers are using to really 

13 eliminate some of the dust that's in the air from 

14 sulfur.

15 And on my particular farm I use it as 

16 a soil amendment. It, really, we talk about 

17 organic producers, and nitrogen being kind of an 

18 extreme limiting factor with producing crops.

19 But sulfur and nitrogen work in tandem 

20 with each other. And if you have the right ratio 

21 it actually makes your nitrogen more efficient.

22 So, when you kind of unlock more 
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1 pieces to the puzzle, and apply a systems 

2 approach, you can get, you know, more efficiency 

3 sometimes if these nutrients are used in tandem.

4 It's a moveable nutrient. So, we have 

5 to really make sure we're testing for it annually 

6 with our soil sample, just to know if we're 

7 deficient or not.

8 And in terms of wheat production it 

9 really drives their protein. We talked about 

10 this just last night in passing. But the 

11 importance of sulfur is really great, at least on 

12 Midwest farms for our crop production.

13 So I will, with that I'll open it up. 

14 Brian, I'm expecting a question from you. Just 

15 kidding. You don't have to. Okay.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: We can keep moving 

18 then.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And folks, just 

20 for anyone who is eagerly anticipating bathroom 

21 break, or anything, we think we just go to lunch 

22 at 12:30. And then, we'll have a hard stop and 
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1 probably finish up after lunch. And then, move 

2 into livestock.

3 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, Brian, actually, 

4 since you had no questions, you're going to go 

5 next. No substance there. Anyway, we're going 

6 to be moving on to lime sulfur.

7 So it's listed at 205.601 synthetic 

8 substances allowed for use in organic crop 

9 production (I) as plant disease control, (6) lime 

10 sulfur. Go ahead.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Amy. And I 

12 want to say that oftentimes, in actually, 

13 researchers' minds, for some reason, in apple 

14 researchers' minds, lime sulfur, and sulfur are 

15 lumped together. And they're actually pretty 

16 different.

17 So I'm really glad that our process 

18 regards them as two different materials. And 

19 lime sulfur is made from sulfur and limestone in 

20 a very energy heat intensive process.

21 And it results in a product that's 

22 very caustic, and very highly alkaline, very 
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1 non-acid. And so it really has different kinds 

2 of properties than sulfur.

3 Although it's used for a lot of the 

4 same kind of purposes. However, similarly to 

5 sulfur, it's been in use a long time, and a lot 

6 of our particularly fruit and vegetable growers 

7 really depended on it heavily.

8 In terms of the public comments, they 

9 emphasize that, many of them. And they were 13 

10 in favor of relisting. And one that was in favor 

11 of relisting, but also, as Wood pointed out, the 

12 same group I'm sure, say that we should specify 

13 the uses.

14 Which, fortunately, from Kyla's help, 

15 we know is already being done by the way that the 

16 listing is organized. So I don't feel, I feel 

17 like basically there were 14 in favor of 

18 relisting and zero opposed, which is the most 

19 one-sided I've seen in any of my reviews.

20 So it is, has been in use a long time, 

21 is highly effective. It is a little bit 

22 hazardous to the person who's mixing. The 
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1 concentrated material is really quite caustic. 

2 And you can, you know, if you touch your eyes or 

3 something, you can really have a major problem.

4 And so, in some States, including New 

5 York, it is one of the very few organic 

6 pesticides, that is a restricted use material. 

7 So you'd have to have a pesticide applicator 

8 license to use it in New York State.

9 But it's effective and people are 

10 using it, being successful with it, and want it 

11 relisted. So I think that's, that's my -- oh, in 

12 terms of the environmental and health effects, 

13 basically, once it's been sprayed, it is pretty 

14 benign.

15 It is not dangerous to the consumer at 

16 all or even the environment. It sometimes has a 

17 deleterious effect on beneficial mites, but that 

18 is handled by the growers with an IPM system of 

19 careful timing of their spraying.

20 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Brian. And 

21 I want to make note. This also is listed, it has 

22 two listings. So I just wanted to make note for 
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1 the record.

2 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, it's an 

3 effective microsite and fungicide, basically, 

4 yes.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Brian.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate?

7 MEMBER LEWIS: Just for the record, I 

8 just want to make sure it's captured that it's 

9 also an essential element in non-antibiotic fire 

10 blight control. Which is critical to what we saw 

11 earlier this morning as the number one crop grown 

12 in the U.S. is apples.

13 So without lime sulfur, we'd have a 

14 lot of challenge, a lot more challenges. And a 

15 lot, probably a lot more exiting of apple acreage 

16 out of organic and back to conventional because 

17 of the loss of antibiotics and the fire blight 

18 control.

19 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, great point, 

20 Nate, absolutely.

21 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you, Brian. 

22 Just to speak briefly to two of the points that 
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1 you made. I've heard anecdotally that sulfur 

2 products are one reason that farm worker 

3 organizations have not wholeheartedly gotten 

4 behind organic because sulfur is still hazardous 

5 and harmful to farm workers.

6 And I've been trying to kind of tease 

7 out which products specifically and get a little 

8 bit more information to help us assess that as we 

9 consider all of these products. And I haven't 

10 been very successful in that.

11 So to those of you who are listening 

12 out in the crowd, if you do have information 

13 about worker impacts of these products, we'd love 

14 to hear about it.

15 I think they're, you know, essential 

16 in many producers' rotations. But it's something 

17 that I'm trying to keep an eye on and learn more 

18 about.

19 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, thanks, 

20 Allison. That's a great point. And I would --

21 so in the East, basically, or the Northeast 

22 anyways, we don't use sulfur is a dust. But I 
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1 think that might be the real issue there. I'm 

2 not sure. But in terms of, of lime sulfur after 

3 it's sprayed at the rates that that I am aware 

4 of, it's really not hazardous to the workers.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, and that's a good 

6 question, Allison. And it really is applicable 

7 with elemental sulfur. And the prior listing, in 

8 various uses, both as a soil amendment both as 

9 disease and pest mitigation. In the powder form, 

10 when you're applying it, there is dust, and it 

11 does cause respiratory issues.

12 There's a couple of studies and we 

13 reviewed them in subcommittee about just 

14 respiratory challenges. And some comments, 

15 commenters mentioned that following the label 

16 requirements and PPEs, that should help reduce 

17 challenges.

18 There was also a study and we 

19 discussed this in subcommittee, just about maybe 

20 there's increased harm to children. And we did 

21 review several articles looking at that. Just 

22 looking at children in general, and the impact 
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1 there. Jerry brought that up in our subcommittee 

2 review.

3 And there is some studies that show 

4 children are more susceptible to respiratory 

5 issues. And there's also additional studies that 

6 say they may not be more susceptible, per se, 

7 outside of they're closer to the ground.

8 They play in the dirt and things like 

9 that. So they're just more exposed to those 

10 respiratory challenges through their, just their 

11 actions. So it is something to be aware of for 

12 sure. Thank you. Yes, Dilip?

13 MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes, Brian, very 

14 quick. This is insecticide. So any effect or 

15 study, are you aware of, of effect on beneficial 

16 insects? And second, any alternative to lime 

17 sulfur? Thank you.

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, thanks, 

19 Dilip. Yes, so I'm not 100 percent sure of this, 

20 but I think that the, by far the primary use of 

21 lime sulfur for arthropods would be for mites. 

22 And yes, it is it is harmful to, it sort of just 
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1 kills all mites pretty effectively.

2 And so, it kills the beneficial mites, 

3 as well. And so, what can happen I think as 

4 Logan pointed out, sometimes you'll get a flare 

5 up of your pest issue if you've really wiped out 

6 all the good guys.

7 And that's very common in conventional 

8 agriculture. And with this material, it can be a 

9 problem, too. But there are very, quite well 

10 documented IPM protocols that will allow you to 

11 use it and not flare up your pests.

12 So yes, you are hurting your 

13 beneficials. But if you use it the in the right 

14 way, the right timing, you won't have a flare up, 

15 and you just avoid that that big becoming a 

16 serious problem.

17 So I don't know about other you know, 

18 more generalist insect predators, or I'm not sure 

19 about that. But it's, you know, it's a harsh, a 

20 harsh material, so.

21 But bugs are pretty tough. So it's 

22 like, you know, it probably does have some 
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1 negative impact on the insect, on the beneficial 

2 insects, but it doesn't seem to be, that I'm 

3 aware of, a big problem. Not like the beneficial 

4 mites, which do get hammered, can get hammered by 

5 it, so. So is that?

6 MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes, thanks.

7 MEMBER CALDWELL: In terms of 

8 alternatives?

9 MEMBER NANDWANI: Alternatives, yes.

10 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, well, I think 

11 Nate made a really good point about fire blight. 

12 And I would say that lime sulfur is, is a really 

13 central material along with copper and some of 

14 the biologicals.

15 But each of them has its place in the 

16 system of managing fire blight. And its place 

17 and in its time. So for the specific uses of 

18 lime sulfur, I don't think there is anything even 

19 close to being as effective at like, sort of 

20 wiping, over overwintering, inoculum, that sort 

21 of thing as lime sulfur.

22 And I think that the research that's 
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1 being done in this area is really pretty 

2 intensive. And I'm sure that as time goes on, 

3 we're going to have more and more effective tools 

4 in the toolbox that are approved for organic that 

5 will help us to manage, you know, some of these 

6 really problem diseases like fire blight. So, 

7 yes.

8 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Brian.

9 MEMBER QUARCOO: I have a quick 

10 comment. When I read about a product that has 

11 effects on beneficial organisms, and we are not 

12 trying to get products to be 100 percent safe for 

13 them. It may not be a realistic.

14 But when I see something that is 

15 described as harsh, and has that kind of effect, 

16 especially for organic growers, that could become 

17 a problem. Because a number of pest problems 

18 that we have, is because we were using pesticides 

19 to manage pests.

20 And then, we ended up wiping out the 

21 beneficials more than the intended benefit. It 

22 gave us a initial benefit. Then we wiped out so 
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1 many beneficials that the first line of defense, 

2 when there was a later outbreak, was almost 

3 non-existent.

4 And for organic growers, who typically 

5 do not have access to quick fixes, like 

6 conventional -- so you get the immediate benefit, 

7 but when the blowback comes back, it becomes even 

8 more difficult.

9 And sometimes there are insects and 

10 mites, that actually their response when you 

11 expose them to something that doesn't kill them 

12 or wipe them out, is that they increase their 

13 reproductive rate.

14 And so, actually, the numbers begin to 

15 go up after you have applied to stuff. So this 

16 whole beneficial pest balance, I would like to 

17 take a closer look at what the data says.

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you, so much, 

19 Franklin. And we were going to rely on your 

20 wisdom and your knowledge very much as we go 

21 forward in all this. So appreciate that, yes.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, Kyla?
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1 MEMBER SMITH: I'm going to make a 

2 comment here, too. So we were talking about the 

3 practice standard at 206. And so, one of the 

4 things that it says, that producers must do 

5 before they're just jumping to use a synthetic on 

6 the National List, is that they need to use 

7 management practices.

8 And in regards to pest problems, one 

9 of the mechanical and physical methods encouraged 

10 for use is the development of habitat for natural 

11 enemies. And anyway, just a bunch of other 

12 things.

13 And so, the requirement at 202 for all 

14 producers to be incorporating biodiversity. So 

15 anyway, it's a systems approach. And anyway, 

16 it's not perfect, but there are other parts of 

17 the regulations that encourage protecting our 

18 beneficials.

19 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you, Kyla. I 

20 couldn't be more supportive of what I think of a 

21 lot of times as deep organics where people are 

22 really structuring the system so that it is sort 
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1 of self-reinforcing and resilient from many 

2 different angles. And so, yes, absolutely. 

3 That's, I think, I think it's critical for 

4 success in organic farming. So, yes.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry?

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Jerry?

7 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes, I have a 

8 question from my friend Brian. And it's somewhat 

9 tongue in cheek. So did you use the word harsh 

10 to get exactly where you got to right now? Was 

11 that, was that delivered? I reach -- I take it 

12 back. I wasn't thinking more than like the next 

13 sentence.

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: I wasn't thinking 

15 more than like in the next sentence ahead, so.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: All right. Thank you 

17 for that review. Thanks for all the discussion 

18 on that. We will move forward. We'll try to get 

19 at least one more in before we break for lunch 

20 here. The next one on the list is liquid fish 

21 products. I'll be reviewing that one.

22 It's listed at 205.601, synthetic 
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1 substances allowed for use in organic crop 

2 production, (I) as plant disease control --

3 sorry, I didn't mean that, sorry, rewind. Okay, 

4 sorry.

5 It's still listed at 205.601, 

6 synthetic substances allowed for use in organic 

7 crop production, (J) as plant or soil amendment, 

8 (8) liquid fish products can be pH adjusted with 

9 sulfuric, citric, or phosphoric acid.

10 The amount of acid shall use shall not 

11 exceed the minimum needed to lower the pH to 3.5. 

12 The use of this product, liquid fish products 

13 are used as fertilizer for production of organic 

14 crops.

15 They can deliver important nutrients 

16 that can reduce certain nutrient stresses, which 

17 can in turn improve crop yields. The 

18 manufacturer of this product is essentially 

19 chopped fish byproducts. That's the component.

20 International acceptance -- EU does 

21 not list liquid fish, but allows fish meals. The 

22 rest of our international review partners 
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1 indicate that they allow processed fish, or yes, 

2 allow processed fish into organic crop 

3 production.

4 Environmental issues -- global impacts 

5 of commercial fisheries on marine ecosystems 

6 include documented declines and, in some cases, 

7 collapses due to over-harvesting.

8 In the fall of 2020, the Board 

9 proposed approved and recommended to the NOP to 

10 add an annotation to liquid fish products that 

11 adds sourced only from fish waste, by-catch, or 

12 invasive species.

13 So really narrowing down the scope of 

14 what the initial components to produce liquid 

15 fish products could be. We did receive a lot of 

16 comments on this particular item.

17 Six farmer groups, consultants from 

18 advocacy groups, companies, five farmers, six 

19 certifier comments. They were all really pretty 

20 supportive of this listing.

21 And indicated it's just used widely in 

22 the farmer community. Two groups wanted more 
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1 restrictive annotations, even further than what 

2 the Board recommended to the NOP. That's 

3 pending.

4 Comments in favor, stated this product 

5 is widely used to produce organic tree fruit, and 

6 also vegetables and produce. Farmers that use 

7 this state that it delivers important nutrients, 

8 so not only nitrogen delivers phosphorus and 

9 other micronutrients.

10 The concerns essentially, are just the 

11 fish, in and of itself, and harvesting, and the 

12 impact that the that can have in the environment. 

13 Fish that do not necessarily have a commercial 

14 value may have an ecological value.

15 So that's another way to look at this. 

16 Just because we're using fish waste, that 

17 doesn't mean that it might not disrupt the whole 

18 ecosystem there. We are preventing fish to be 

19 solely used to make this product. We're using 

20 fish waste.

21 However, does that provide incremental 

22 financial value for the initial harvesting 
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1 because they have a secondary income source with 

2 their waste streams? So that was a concern as 

3 well.

4 There was a concern that synthetic 

5 liquid fish products are not essential. There's 

6 a concern with contamination with PFAS, as well.

7 This was one that I that I did ask one 

8 our oral commenters was about concerns with 

9 possible fortification with phosphorus, some of 

10 the formulations of these liquid fish products 

11 and they're kind of, they can be blended type 

12 products that are available out there.

13 There is concerns that potentially 

14 increased phosphorus levels are used in the 

15 initial formulation. And then, ingredients are 

16 added after the fact to get the pH back to 3.5.

17 We're testing the final pH of the 

18 product, so we don't know the steps in the 

19 middle. Could that happen? That was the 

20 question by a commenter.

21 And then also we asked about is the 

22 annotation clear and easily enforced. We asked 
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1 our stakeholders. Most certifiers said that the 

2 annotation was clear and could be enforced.

3 One manufacturer said 3.5 is too tight 

4 of a tolerance, because every batch needs to be 

5 formulated with a potential ratio just with what 

6 the overall product is and the income stream.

7 So he wanted a more wider type pH 

8 range. The pH, getting the pH at 3.5, though, 

9 3.5 or a low pH like that, helps with stability 

10 of the overall product. That's the reason for 

11 needing to get it at that pH initially.

12 There were a few calls to action. I 

13 highlighted the, you know, NOP pending 

14 recommendation just to restrict down what fish 

15 could be used to make this product. So there was 

16 definitely community support to mention that.

17 Let's see. And then, there were also 

18 two groups that wanted even further restrictions. 

19 Again, that's outside of our purview with this 

20 review.

21 But they just wanted to make sure that 

22 we were not using viable fish to make these types 
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1 of fertilizers. So with that, I'll open it up to 

2 any review.

3 MEMBER TURNER: Amy, I think I missed 

4 this in the questions for Jenny yesterday. But 

5 can you can you remind me why the, what the delay 

6 from the October 2020 Board recommendation is 

7 about?

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. I actually, I 

9 don't remember her mentioning it. Jared, could 

10 you fill it in here?

11 MR. CLARK: It'll be a Jenny question. 

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay.

13 MR. CLARK: So I'll have to circle 

14 back.

15 MEMBER TURNER: Sorry about that. I 

16 forgot --

17 MR. CLARK: No, I'll make note.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, no, I appreciate 

19 the comment. It's, it's good. Yes, we can catch 

20 her after lunch for that one, put it on the list.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan, did you 

22 have a question? Okay.
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Good question.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

3 questions? Okay, Brian?

4 MEMBER BRUCH: Brian?

5 MEMBER CALDWELL: Sorry, I can't 

6 resist. I'm wondering, Amy, one thing maybe we 

7 can ask is that stakeholders, next time around, 

8 would be if, if we could drop phosphoric acid 

9 from the materials that could be used to adjust 

10 the pH?

11 Which would, you know, basically, for 

12 good or for evil, it would take a little bit of 

13 phosphorus out of the final product that the 

14 growers probably like.

15 But on the other hand, it might be, 

16 they might be putting on synthetic phosphorus 

17 that they're not aware of. But anyways, what --

18 I'm just suggesting that we could ask them.

19 That could be a question for the 

20 stakeholders next, for next comments. Is that 

21 there might be a problem with the passing the 

22 sunset then if we want to change it, right? It's 
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1 a title thing?

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, I have a draft 

3 work agenda item that's going to go to you all 

4 about annotation changes and how we can move that 

5 forward, incorporate that into our processes. So 

6 anyway, that'll be discussed at the next 

7 executive committee call.

8 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great.

9 MEMBER BRUCH: But you are correct in 

10 that we are not able to change the annotation in 

11 the sunset vote. However, with hopefully this 

12 future work agenda item, there would be a process 

13 to do so.

14 So it would be useful to have 

15 information, sounds like, on which products are 

16 using the different types of acids in the 

17 annotation, is what I'm hearing you say.

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, that's very 

19 exciting news, actually.

20 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, I like that's an 

21 interesting angle, Brian, with your point there 

22 with phosphoric acid that would produce potential 
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1 fortification there.

2 There's one manufacturer that I 

3 remember that provided some written comments and 

4 he did reference that it was phosphoric acid that 

5 was being used in his process.

6 So I'm not sure of, you know, the 

7 other manufacturers if they're using the other 

8 acids to do the processing, or if it's primarily 

9 phosphoric acid. But it would an interesting 

10 question and interesting to learn more about. 

11 Thanks.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin?

13 MEMBER QUARCOO: So there current 

14 restrictions concerning the use of these fish 

15 products on land that low storage surface water 

16 bodies where runoff could take them into the 

17 water body? Are there restrictions because of 

18 eutrophication, and stuff like?

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, I'm glad you 

20 brought up that point. That there isn't 

21 necessarily restrictions via annotation about 

22 that.
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1 But that was brought up by other 

2 commenters as a environmental concern of just 

3 nitrogen runoff, in general, if it's excessively 

4 applied and not use with good, good farming 

5 practices. So that, that is an environmental 

6 concern. Thank you.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate?

8 MEMBER LEWIS: In that vein, we'll 

9 direct to the practice standard which does 

10 require that all nutrients applied on farms be 

11 used in a manner that sort of prevents the runoff 

12 of those said nutrients. So fish would not be 

13 excluded from that general requirement that 

14 farmers would need to comply with.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Nate. Any 

16 other discussion? Okay.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's break for 

20 lunch folks. We're going to come back at 2 

21 o'clock, so an hour and a half. See you all back 

22 here at 2:00 p.m.
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1 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

2 went off the record at 12:31 p.m. and resumed at 

3 2:03 p.m.)

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, welcome 

5 back, folks. We're going to keep going with 

6 crops. I'm going to hand it off to Amy.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you. 

8 Welcome back. Hopefully, everybody had a great 

9 lunch. To kick things off, we're going to just 

10 finalize a conversation on liquid fish products. 

11 Wood, actually had a question. And I see Jenny 

12 is here. So Jenny, don't get too comfortable 

13 over there.

14 DR. TUCKER: Yes?

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Wood, do you want us? 

16 Do you want to ask your question? Represent it?

17 MEMBER TURNER: I just was curious 

18 about the October 2020 proposal that was, that 

19 shows up is on hold. And I just was curious 

20 where that sits, the program.

21 DR. TUCKER: Yes, it is on hold. We 

22 did a preliminary analysis on that 
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1 recommendation. It turns out there are a bunch 

2 of other questions that would be raised by that 

3 related to statutory authority. 

4 We are an international -- you know, 

5 operations around the world can be certified to 

6 the standard. So there's authority questions. 

7 There's also sheer implementation questions on 

8 what the impact of that would be, and what the 

9 cost would be to trade.

10 So at the time, there were -- and I 

11 would say, now, there are a lot of other 

12 regulatory priorities that we are able to move 

13 forward.

14 And so, we decided to further to table 

15 it, and work on original livestock, OLPS, 

16 strengthening organic enforcement, inerts, and 

17 all the other priorities.

18 So right now, it's going to remain on 

19 hold. Because to unpack that recommendation 

20 would take some significant staff time that right 

21 now, we don't have. That's not where we want our 

22 priority to be.
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1 MEMBER TURNER: Got it. I don't mean 

2 to poke the bear. I just, is it on hold, or is 

3 it -- I mean, is it -- I mean, what would it take 

4 to get off of hold, I guess, is my question.

5 And I know -- I should have asked you 

6 yesterday. And I don't mean to put you on the 

7 spot here, but.

8 DR. TUCKER: I mean, I think, if, if 

9 we decided to -- I don't know, as we've made a, I 

10 don't, we've haven't made a decision not to do 

11 it. I think one of the things I've committed to 

12 through the regulatory priorities programs is 

13 when we decide not to do something, we will add 

14 something to that recommendation.

15 And close it, but explain why. That 

16 we do owe you an explanation. I don't -- I think 

17 that we evaluated it enough to know, oh, my 

18 goodness, this is going to be a big deal. Do we 

19 want to do it? And we said, we're going to table 

20 it for right now. But I don't feel like we've 

21 made a decision.

22 MEMBER TURNER: Thank you.
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1 DR. TUCKER: No, thank you.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Jenny. 

3 Thank you, Wood. Okay, next up we're going to 

4 turn our discussion to Jerry for sulfurous acid. 

5 And -- okay. Do you want to? You can, go 

6 ahead. That's fine.

7 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you. Sulfurous 

8 acid, 205.601, (J), uses a plant or soil 

9 amendment for on farm use only, utilizing 99 

10 percent pure elemental sulfur. It is used to 

11 neutralize and reduce the success of alkalinity 

12 in soil and water.

13 This use supports improve crop yields,

14 and reduces soil degradation. Concerning 

15 environmental issues, sulfurous acid appears on 

16 the EPA non-food inert list and does not require 

17 a tolerance or an exemption from a tolerance.

18 Regarding human health concerns, and 

19 per the 2014 TR, sulfurous acid is not expected 

20 to be carcinogenic. I'm not overwhelmed with the 

21 way that was written, but that's what it says.

22 During the Fall 2018 meeting the NOSB 
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1 voted unanimously to keep sulfurous acid on the 

2 National List. And most of the written comments 

3 supported the relisting. One commenter at the 

4 time wrote that no synthetic fertilizers should 

5 be permitted.

6 The written and oral comments 

7 submitted for this Board meeting numbered 16. 

8 There were 14 comments in support of relisting 

9 with one opposed and one undecided.

10 One commenter noted that sulfurous 

11 acid could mask poor soil conditions, but that 

12 has no intent of being amended. So I guess it's 

13 a note to certification that if it's being used 

14 for masking poor conditions with no intent to 

15 amend, that's an issue.

16 We did receive a limited scope TR in 

17 February of this year and declared it to be 

18 sufficient during the subcommittee meeting on the 

19 9th of February of this year.

20 The authors did a seemingly complete 

21 job of listing potential alternatives and then 

22 evaluating these alternatives as being less 
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1 effective than sulfurous acid.

2 In reviewing the respondents, we 

3 basically have a who's who of tree fruit growing 

4 in the Pacific Northwest, and perhaps you would 

5 like to say something to it. And a quick note on 

6 the TR ,I'd like to read what we summarized at 

7 subcommittee.

8 Attached below is the TR for sulfurous 

9 acid. The TR request was a single question. So 

10 a limited TR. What alternatives to sulfurous 

11 acid exists that could be used for organic 

12 production?

13 And they listed actually elemental 

14 sulfur with the caveat that the amount needed 

15 would be prohibitive, actually hundreds of 

16 thousands of pounds per acre.

17 Gypsum effective with high sodium 

18 soils, high sodic but less effective in non-sodic 

19 soils. If that needs, if that's sodic, someone 

20 should tell me.

21 Chelated micronutrients materials do 

22 not alter the soil pH but help plants tolerate 
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1 alkaline soils, plant induced soil changes. And 

2 again with a summary saying there's nothing that 

3 really can hold a candle to sulfurous acid in 

4 terms of effectiveness. And that's, that's what 

5 I have.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: All right. Any 

7 questions for Jerry? Thank you. I really 

8 appreciate that, Jerry. Yes, Nate, go ahead.

9 MEMBER LEWIS: It's more a statement 

10 just to illustrate the value in Washington. That 

11 Washington, for those of you that haven't been 

12 there, we have a wet side of the State and the 

13 dry side of the State.

14 And the wet side generally has more 

15 acidic soils and historically has been the side 

16 that has grown more blueberries. But then we 

17 have a lot of other fungal issues because of the 

18 wet side. And all the conditions those bring 

19 out.

20 The sulfurous acid has really been 

21 instrumental in allowing the east side of the 

22 State, which is a lot drier, but has irrigation 
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1 to participate in the blueberry industry.

2 And they, so they are able to sort of 

3 mimic some of those conditions that the acidic 

4 soils allow the plant growth to occur. But they 

5 have a lot less pest and disease issues because 

6 of the arid nature of the climate there.

7 So that's really what, the sulfurous 

8 acid has kind of opened the door for fresh market 

9 blueberries. You know, Washington produces half 

10 the value of the crop, or half the volume of the 

11 crop in the United States.

12 It's why they are in all the stores 

13 these days, and why it's such a popular product. 

14 So just using that to illustrate the necessity 

15 of the of crop, especially for blueberries in 

16 Washington.

17 MEMBER D'AMORE: Could I plead a point 

18 of clarification. The statistic given for 

19 blueberry production there was what?

20 MEMBER LEWIS: It's half the volume of 

21 organic blueberries are grown in Washington 

22 State.
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1 MEMBER D'AMORE: Perfect. Okay, 

2 organic --

3 MEMBER LEWIS: At least according to 

4 the --

5 MEMBER D'AMORE: No, no --

6 MEMBER LEWIS: Statistic I just heard 

7 about today.

8 MEMBER D'AMORE: -- dead on, thank 

9 you.

10 MEMBER LEWIS: And I'll add, we're 

11 number one, and ahead of California, so. 

12 Whenever we get to say that, we say that.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Any other questions for 

14 Jerry? All right, thank you. Appreciate it, 

15 Jerry. All right, we'll move on to Logan. Let's 

16 see you, you're going to ethylene gas.

17 So it's listed at 205.601, synthetic 

18 substances allowed for use in organic production, 

19 organic crop, (K) as plant growth regulators, (1) 

20 ethylene gas for regulation of pineapple 

21 flowering.

22 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you. Yes, this 
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1 is from the background, from the TR. Ethylene is 

2 a plant growth regulator that is produced 

3 naturally by plants and has effects as many 

4 aspects of plant growth, development and survival 

5 including seed germination, chute growth, route 

6 development, flowering, sex determination, and 

7 fruit ripening, acquisition of leaves and fruit, 

8 senescence of flowers and leaves.

9 Ethylene also has a role in plant 

10 adaptation to a variety of stresses such as 

11 drought, flooding, pathogen attack and high 

12 salinity.

13 Its current listing use is to induce 

14 uniform flowering in pineapples. It is applied 

15 seven to 15 months after planting, and it can be 

16 used two to three times in a season.

17 The manufacturing of this product is, 

18 most ethylene gas is manufactured globally, is 

19 made from pyrolysis, a product of petroleum 

20 hydrocarbon feedstocks. Ethylene gas can also be 

21 produced in small quantities in onsite fruit 

22 ripening facilities by catalytic generators from 
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1 ethanol.

2 The international acceptance, there's 

3 a wide use of ethylene gas in organic production 

4 internationally, including the beginning of 

5 bananas, avocados, kiwi, citrus, inducing 

6 flowering of pineapples, also controlling the 

7 sprouting of potatoes and onions.

8 And a lot of that is post-handling. 

9 And so I have this material in the handling side, 

10 as well. And so, the only, the only use that I 

11 see here as a crop input is the inducement of 

12 flowering of pineapple.

13 Everything else is a post-harvest, a 

14 post-harvest thing. There is little 

15 environmental concern. This materials is 

16 explosive, and workers must be trained in 

17 handling. Otherwise, the material itself is not 

18 toxic.

19 So our questions were asking whether 

20 there were alternatives to ethylene. In which we 

21 received that there are no alternatives to that. 

22 And are there any interest in expanding this 
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1 use?

2 And the answer was, yes, that there is 

3 interest in that from a lot of our commenters. 

4 But again, I think a lot of those desired uses 

5 are covered in the handling side, on the 

6 post-harvest side. And so, I didn't see any 

7 additional use for in-season crop inputs for this 

8 material. But I'll open it up to you guys.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

10 Logan? All right, back to you.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you. 

12 Jerry, we're going to turn it back to you for 

13 microcrystalline cheese wax.

14 MEMBER D'AMORE: You said that so 

15 well.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. See if I can 

17 repeat. All right. It's listed at 205.601, 

18 synthetic substances allowed for use in organic 

19 crop production.

20 (O) as crop production aids, (1)

21 microcrystalline cheese wax for use in log grown 

22 mushroom production must be made without either 
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1 ethylene-propylene, copolymer, or synthetic 

2 colors.

3 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you, you just 

4 read half the report. This is a substance that I 

5 particularly get a kick out of because I get to 

6 join the club with some of the growers.

7 It's a product that I grew for six 

8 years in Virginia. And what I came away with is 

9 that it is a high value crop, very reliable. But 

10 let me stick to the script here, and then I'll 

11 tell you a bit more about that.

12 Microcrystalline cheese wax has been 

13 used in organic agriculture as a production aid 

14 in log grown shiitake mushrooms since the 1980s. 

15 This product is used to seal holes in hardwood 

16 logs, most commonly oak after the shiitake spawn

17 is inserted.

18 Microcrystalline cheese wax is a food 

19 grade product made up of a mixture of 

20 microcrystalline wax, paraffin wax, and 

21 petroleum.

22 For the 2018 TR reference studies 
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1 there have been no reports that indicate the 

2 likelihood of the bio-accumulation of either 

3 microcrystalline cheese wax or its breakdown 

4 products. There are no known health risks.

5 For this session, there were a total 

6 of 13 written and oral comments. None were 

7 opposed to relisting. One commenter encouraged 

8 continued efforts to source a non-petroleum 

9 alternative. Another commenter suggested an 

10 annotation requiring removing the cheese wax 

11 after use.

12 At the last sunset review, it was 

13 determined that log grown shiitake mushrooms are 

14 still widely practiced by many small growers. 

15 And not this go around -- excuse me.

16 Not this go around, but the last go 

17 around, five years ago that became sort of the 

18 argument for not relisting it, that it just 

19 wasn't used anymore. And to a certain extent in 

20 large production, the log has been replaced by 

21 bags that have shavings from the hardwood.

22 But I would venture to say there's 
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1 still hundreds if not thousands of backyard 

2 farming groups that are happy to have this as an 

3 income producing way of going forward. Let's 

4 see. Yes, I just be repeating myself -- it

5 breaks down readily. Comments -- okay, that's 

6 it.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Jerry. Are 

8 there any questions for Jerry?

9 MEMBER D'AMORE: Oh, please ask.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: Nothing? Okay. Oh, 

11 Allison has one.

12 MEMBER JOHNSON: I love materials like 

13 this because I learned something new about our 

14 world every day. As a practical matter, could 

15 you actually remove it from a log? That sounds 

16 extremely labor intensive, and like it would be 

17 challenging to do.

18 MEMBER D'AMORE: No, actually, it's a 

19 beautiful system. You get a three inch log that 

20 you can have probably three feet long, three to 

21 four inches in diameter. And you drill holes in 

22 it, and you put the spawn in.
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1 And you plug it with the 

2 microcrystalline cheese wax. And just keep it 

3 sprinkled and come back. And they're, they come 

4 right out of the logs. They're there just to be 

5 harvested. Is that the question you asked or did 

6 I miss it?

7 MEMBER JOHNSON: The question about 

8 the annotation was about removing the wax after. 

9 Can you just go back through and like pull it?

10 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes. Sorry, I didn't 

11 comment to that. And you're right, it is there. 

12 In my experience with it, there's nothing to be 

13 found by the time you're harvesting it.

14 And another misconception is, is that 

15 the shiitakes come out of the drilled hole. 

16 It'll come out of anywhere in the log. But by 

17 the time you're finished harvest, the log is 

18 decomposing, the mushrooms have done their work. 

19 And I don't think you could find the plug to 

20 take care of.

21 MEMBER JOHNSON: I'm going to ask you 

22 one more question. So you have some matter 
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1 that's left over. Is that then composted or 

2 disposed of? Or --

3 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes, normally 

4 composted on spot. It's what you just said, it's 

5 an oak log, and it finds its way, either with 

6 help or without help.

7 We had enough space. We had enough 

8 space. We give it a whole lot of help. But you 

9 know, five years later, you had nothing to look 

10 at anymore. That may not be a satisfactory 

11 answer, but that's the way.

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Jerry, I actually had a 

13 question for you. In terms of alternatives you 

14 mentioned, you know, there's some new methods to 

15 still grow these mushrooms that don't involve 

16 this process.

17 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: But some small 

19 producers are using this process. But to connect 

20 your world with my world, you know, there's just 

21 more of an abundance of non-GMO soybeans.

22 And this was a commenter's question. 
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1 Is there a way to, now, and I believe that, you 

2 know, one of the questions that we asked our 

3 stakeholders is it, do we think we can start 

4 transitioning off?

5 You know, not to a different 

6 production methodology, but just to a different 

7 wax substance now that there's more of a 

8 prevalence of non-GMO soybeans and soy wax?

9 MEMBER D'AMORE: Certainly, in my 

10 time, there was no alternative. And what I read 

11 here, it didn't strike me that there was really a 

12 strong desire. And I may have missed something, 

13 Amy.

14 For some to come and say, I can, I can 

15 do it. I just don't see that. There's just, 

16 there's not a lot of volume to be running after. 

17 The plug is about this big, that big around.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, I think I saw like 

19 1.5 ounces or something --

20 MEMBER D'AMORE: Right, right.

21 MEMBER BRUCH: -- of material per log. 

22 So it's pretty small.
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1 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes, yes.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: But I was just curious. 

3 Okay.

4 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: Nate's got a question.

6 MEMBER LEWIS: Yes, just to address 

7 that question that you had. My recollection is 

8 that non-GMO soy wax was petitioned to the Board. 

9 It's a synthetic substance once you kind of get 

10 it to the wax form it's considered synthetic. So 

11 it would require a petition.

12 And my recollection was it did not get 

13 the approval vote because it was a very resilient 

14 wax, and so it had a decomposition concern in the 

15 environment, in contrast to what we have 

16 available now. So that was, that's again, a 

17 recollection.

18 So it might be worth going back on the 

19 record. But it has been petitioned and looked at 

20 pretty thoroughly. And at that time, seems 

21 incompatible with OFPA in terms of adding that to 

22 the list as an alternative.
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks, Nate, 

2 appreciate that. Any other further questions for 

3 Jerry? Okay, thank you, so much. All right, 

4 we're going to turn it over to Wood next for 

5 potassium chloride.

6 So it's listed at 205.602, 

7 non-synthetic substances prohibited for use in 

8 organic crop production, (E) potassium chloride, 

9 unless derived from a mined source and applied in 

10 a manner that minimizes chloride accumulation in 

11 the soil.

12 MEMBER TURNER: So we're going to move 

13 into 602 land, which is, you know, it's an 

14 interesting listing for me because it's, it's 

15 essentially prohibited but then the annotation 

16 creates an allowed use. So it's a, yes, one of 

17 those brain benders on how these listings occur.

18 So, this is a material that is, 

19 obviously, potassium is incredibly important in 

20 agriculture, and this is a means of supporting 

21 potassium, increasing potassium in soil. It --

22 Obviously, potassium can be used by 
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1 itself. But it can also be used in complexes 

2 like potassium chloride, or as an ingredient in 

3 fertilizer blends for soil supplementation.

4 It's important to note that chloride 

5 is also essential for plants. But the listing, 

6 you know, it requires that the use of this 

7 material involve the monitoring of chloride use 

8 to make sure that salinity levels in the soil are 

9 not excessive.

10 So also interesting to me is the fact 

11 that the allowed use is from a mined source. We 

12 talk about mining all the time. And the fact 

13 that a lot of these materials come from mining 

14 operations, which in and of themselves have 

15 environmental impacts.

16 From an international standpoint, the 

17 material as I understand it, as I can understand 

18 the international standards is allowed for this 

19 use in Canada.

20 Canada allows mined sources. The 

21 European Union doesn't specify the use of the 

22 material. Other international standards do allow 
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1 some, some usage here.

2 The last time this material came up, 

3 it was unanimously voted to relist in this way. 

4 We did trigger a TR. And that TR is pending. It 

5 was sufficient.

6 But we did consider it sufficient, but 

7 we did have some additional questions about the 

8 emergence of organic alternatives to potassium 

9 chloride.

10 And I understand that we did receive 

11 that, but after our, after the materials had 

12 closed for the semester. And so, I haven't 

13 fully, and I don't think the committee has fully 

14 discussed that, or internalized that information 

15 from the TR.

16 I don't know exactly when the 

17 community would have been able to see it, as 

18 well. But certainly hope to hear some feedback 

19 from folks.

20 There has been some discussion about 

21 potassium sulfate as a cost effective 

22 alternative, although it does deliver lower 
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1 potassium, and the sulfate itself can result in 

2 acidification of the soil.

3 So there's been some good discussion, 

4 I would say from a community standpoint. In the 

5 written comments, we got lots of comments in 

6 support of this annotated listing as it reads.

7 It appears in a number of ISPs, many 

8 folks are using it. So we heard a number of 

9 certifiers in that regard. Other organizations, 

10 coalitions, and non-profits supported the 

11 continued listing as it is, so.

12 And there was no sort of, from my read 

13 of the written materials, no sort of argument to 

14 change the listing, or to not list it in this 

15 way. Which again, is a prohibited use with an 

16 annotation that allows it in these forms. So 

17 there you go.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Wood. Any 

19 questions for Wood? Logan?

20 MEMBER PETREY: Just a comment. We do 

21 use potassium chloride at times. We haven't had 

22 any accumulation or any problems with chloride 
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1 build up, anything in the soil. It's an 

2 essential element we're kind of are lacking on 

3 our sandy soils of about everything.

4 And so, we don't have any issues 

5 there. It is good to have the product. It is 

6 relatively inexpensive so that we can you know 

7 have that potassium for our crops that are pretty 

8 high demanding of it. And it does leach.

9 Also to have multiple different 

10 products. There are multiple, I guess potash 

11 sources. But to be able to have that when there 

12 are supply chain shortages, and things like that.

13 So to have it as an option. It may 

14 not be the preferred, but. Or even if it is, but 

15 just to make sure that it is there. Because it 

16 is critical to have that macro-nutrient.

17 MEMBER TURNER: Have you ever had any? 

18 So you said you had no build up in chloride, but 

19 any, any issues at all? Never?

20 MEMBER PETREY: No, none.

21 MEMBER TURNER: Okay.

22 MEMBER PETREY: None.
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Logan. I 

2 actually have a questions for you about this 

3 product. Now your soils, I believe, are high in 

4 pH, right?

5 MEMBER PETREY: Yes, naturally they 

6 are. Yes.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. So Woods' 

8 comment, he summarized, I believe, a commenter 

9 that said, you know, I don't want to necessarily 

10 use potassium sulfate because it would do the 

11 opposite effect because their soil pHs were lower 

12 and sulfate would drive that down.

13 But in your case, would you choose to 

14 use the alternative of potassium sulfate? I know 

15 it's a little bit more expensive, generally, but 

16 you get the sulfur with it.

17 MEMBER PETREY: Yes, definitely, 

18 preferred to use the sulfate whenever, and 

19 potassium magnesium sulfate. You know, we like 

20 that too.

21 And so, yes, we are having to add 

22 sulfur whether it's through Epsom salts if we 
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1 have to do it, if we're using the potassium 

2 chloride.

3 So there's other avenues of using it. 

4 We can put gypsum out, you know, at certain 

5 times. But we do, we do like having, you know, 

6 sulfur in that product.

7 But again, it is cheaper to use the 

8 other if we're on that budget, you know. And so, 

9 it kind of depends. But I do prefer to use a 

10 sulfated product.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you. Thanks for 

12 that. That's very applicable.

13 MEMBER PETREY: And yes, our soils 

14 are, they're relatively neutral. I mean, I guess 

15 they are higher than your probably ideal six and 

16 a half, or you know, or lower sixes. They are 

17 higher.

18 We use the elemental sulfur to pull it 

19 down every year or tried to. But we, I haven't 

20 contributed most of our pH moving because of, you 

21 know, products like that.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, absolutely. Yes, 
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1 when we were farming further south of you, we 

2 were in the eights with pH. It was pretty high. 

3 But I had a question for you on, just looking at 

4 your crops.

5 After you use one product or another 

6 what I've heard from my soil scientists is that a 

7 potassium sulfate type product will actually 

8 increase more of the sugar, or the sweetness in 

9 your crops, versus the chloride will, you know, 

10 make more of a bitter taste.

11 I didn't know if there was any? 

12 Looking at it, it was more in maybe grapes.

13 MEMBER PETREY: Sure.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Or you know, things 

15 like that, but.

16 MEMBER PETREY: No, I don't know that. 

17 I haven't done any taste test, you know, test 

18 testing. But I mean, I know that potassium is 

19 important in moving sugars throughout the plant 

20 for that.

21 Which potassium is in both of that. 

22 So I don't know if the other macros or micros are 
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1 contributing, that factor. Or whether just the 

2 potassium in certain products are holding on a 

3 little bit longer. The, you know, the solubility 

4 of each of those, if that contributes to it, I'm 

5 not sure.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks, Logan. So are 

7 there any other questions for Wood? All right, 

8 perfect. Now we have two more in crops. And 

9 they're going to be back to back with Mindee. 

10 We're going to start off with sodium carbonate 

11 peroxyl hydrate. Okay, and just want to make 

12 sure I advance the slide.

13 MEMBER BRUCH: This is listed at 

14 205.601, synthetic substances allowed for use in 

15 organic crop production. (A) as an algaecide, 

16 disinfectant, and sanitizer including irrigation 

17 system cleaning systems.

18 (G) sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate, 

19 Federal law restricts the use of the substance in 

20 food crop production to approved food uses 

21 identified on the product label. Go ahead, 

22 Mindee.
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1 VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you so much 

2 for your patience with my allergies in my sinus 

3 infection. Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate is 

4 rapidly dissolved in water and disassociates into 

5 oxygen, hydrogen peroxide, and sodium carbonate. 

6 Sorry, there is minimal concern for 

7 environmental or health risks.

8 There are a couple of possibilities 

9 for negative impacts but they're pretty minor. 

10 In the comments, there are certifiers in the 

11 central regions, and the northern Midwest regions 

12 didn't see a lot of use of this substance. But 

13 in certifiers who are more on the West Coast 

14 list, like 127 users.

15 So they are specifically supporting 

16 this for use as a copper alternative in their 

17 comments. So regionally, this is interesting 

18 material from the farmer's perspective. Loss of 

19 this naturalist material can negatively impact 

20 farm economies and agricultural production.

21 Another farmer expressed support for 

22 the listing and the potential for a more specific 
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1 annotation as an alternative to copper products. 

2 A farmer group described SEP as functioning 

3 better than copper sulfate for algae control and 

4 specifically noted that copper sulfate only 

5 reduces bloom, whereas SEP prevents the growth of 

6 algae. 

7 In the group comments, one group noted 

8 that this material's original intention was to 

9 reduce the use of copper sulfate as an algaecide 

10 and he questioned if this is happening in 

11 practice.

12 Which caused this group to question 

13 the essential quality and efficacy of the 

14 substance recommending de-listing if it cannot be 

15 demonstrated that the material is being used as 

16 listed in actual practice.

17 Another group had similar sentiments, 

18 expressly requesting the delisting unless the 

19 NOSB document evidence that it is effective for 

20 its intended use as an alternative to copper and 

21 rice production.

22 That was their assertion of the 
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1 original intention of the use, and that the 

2 substance should have a more specific listing. 

3 So due to those comments, I went back to the 2007 

4 crops subcommittee notes in the NOSB 

5 recommendation for relisting.

6 And it sounds like the crops 

7 subcommittee from those notes saw some 

8 incompatibility with the synthetic materials 

9 categories listed by OFA.

10 And then resulting public comments in 

11 the full NOSB meaning presented additional 

12 information that convinced most board members 

13 that the material's environmental impacts were 

14 minimal and much more environmentally friendly 

15 than copper sulfate, now used as the principal 

16 farm pond and rice production.

17 So the groups that aren't necessarily 

18 in love with this material, also looked at it as 

19 not really falling under an awful category. And 

20 this is reflected in the TR.

21 But that the minimal concern and the 

22 environmentally friendly alternative to copper 
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1 sulfate is the position that the earlier board 

2 took to put this on the list. And then in 

3 another public comment, a stakeholder noted that 

4 materials should be looked at through a systems 

5 lens.

6 So with the you know, Carla's earlier 

7 comment, reminding me about how crops list is 

8 divided by a particular use. And that the 

9 previous board's recommendation helped me 

10 rationalize why and how this material is 

11 situated.

12 And it's supported for use, and 

13 they're showing that they're using it for 

14 algaecides in irrigation and in sanitizers and 

15 irrigation systems.

16 So I felt a little bit more 

17 comfortable with the pressure built by 

18 stakeholders and the rationale of previous boards 

19 with the essential quality and necessity for this 

20 material.

21 And then another group noted that this 

22 material breaks down into hydrogen peroxide and 
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1 sodium carbonate which further qualifies it as a 

2 material compatible with National List evaluation 

3 and criteria.

4 And so, definitely noted in a couple 

5 of different comments about the efficacy and 

6 utility of the substance. As far as the 

7 questions to the stakeholders were concerned, I 

8 just want to apologize if that first question was 

9 not clear in its request.

10 The subcommittee's understanding is 

11 that s SEP is sold as an algaecide, but it has 

12 been observed with a master label that includes 

13 fungicidal use.

14 Additionally, the EPA Fact Sheet 

15 states that sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate is a 

16 granular chemical, which is the active ingredient 

17 in certain algaecide and fungicide products.

18 And due to this information, the 

19 subcommittee is seeking information as to whether 

20 there exists a potential for misdirected use as a 

21 fungicide. And so hopefully that clears up the 

22 reason for the question.
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1 So looking forward to the fall 

2 meeting. To answer that question of essential 

3 quality and efficacy, I think we really looked to 

4 the western regions, and the 127 users listed by 

5 one certifier.

6 If you guys could reach out and 

7 encourage the stakeholders to engage with the 

8 NOSB comment process, I think we could get some 

9 great examples of the use and specific efficacy 

10 of this substance.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks, Mindee. Thanks 

12 for your review and your requests to the 

13 community. Any discussion, any questions for 

14 Mindee? Brian, go ahead.

15 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, thanks, Mindee. 

16 I might have missed it. But did you get a 

17 specific response to whether it's being used as 

18 an alternative for copper and rice production?

19 VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: I don't remember 

20 seeing exactly on this one. If they were saying 

21 yes, I'm sorry, farmers, a couple of farmers. 

22 It's better than copper sulfate for algae growth. 
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1 And that had, and they supported the specific 

2 annotation, so yes.

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay, great.

4 VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Not very many. 

5 But yes.

6 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you. Because, 

7 you know, especially Jerry has worked for quite a 

8 while and quite hard on the copper and rice and 

9 copper and other systems. And it's really good 

10 to fill out the whole picture here if we can. 

11 So, yes, thanks.

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks, Brian. Any 

13 other questions? Okay, thank you, Mindee. We'll 

14 maintain to you. Let's advance. We're on 

15 hydrated lime next.

16 So this is listed at 205.601, 

17 synthetic substances allowed for use in organic 

18 crop production. (I) as plant disease control 

19 for hydrated lime.

20 VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you. So 

21 the growers support listing used in Bordeaux 

22 mixes as a fungicide for mildew and other 
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1 funguses.

2 Another cited it's a necessary tool 

3 for plant disease critical control. An orchard 

4 grower in Washington cited the importance of the 

5 three remaining nationalist materials left in 

6 organic tree fruit production.

7 Hydrated lime is one of these legacy 

8 organic controls for diseases. Noting that use 

9 in Bordeaux mix is important for treating 

10 bacterial gummosis in organic cherries.

11 The grower association supported 

12 relisting. It listed horticultural oils and 

13 elemental sulfur as alternatives, noting that 

14 they have limited efficacy listed tools for 

15 integrated pest management including crop 

16 rotation, pruning, and variety selection.

17 Another Association supported and 

18 stressed the importance of the tool. Those are 

19 grower associations and a larger association of 

20 public commenters noted that again fungicides 

21 used as a foliar application by a tree for 

22 growers cited few viable alternatives to 
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1 controlling various kinds of mildews.

2 Generally, associations were 

3 supportive, citing few viable alternatives. They 

4 support this restricted use and requested, and 

5 one group supports a restricted use and requested 

6 annotation for a more specific user application. 

7 Again, I think that the way that it's 

8 listed implies the specific user application, but 

9 I understand the pressure they're putting there. 

10 Noted that the hydrated lime's use as a 

11 component of the Bordeaux mix is historically 

12 acceptable. 

13 Members report a wide range of 

14 application and for, especially in Bordeaux mixes 

15 including uses for fire blight, leaf curl, downy 

16 mildew, powdery mildew, peacocks spot, and walnut 

17 blight.

18 Certifiers, again this substance is 

19 regionally interesting because the certifiers who 

20 might traditionally work mostly in the Northeast 

21 and the Midwest. in the Upper Midwest don't see a 

22 lot of use.
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1 But a lot of users in the certifiers 

2 from the West are reported as noted for the fire 

3 blight and the leaf curl. There aren't a lot of 

4 viable alternatives and applications that aren't 

5 showing phytotoxicity on either leaves or fruit. 

6 General support and good information here about 

7 the use and why it's important. And there aren't 

8 enough alternatives.

9 MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks, Mindee. Any 

10 questions for Mindee? Okay, seeing none. Well, 

11 that concludes the spring work agenda items for 

12 crops. Thank you for this wonderful discussion 

13 and your time and I turn it back over to you, 

14 Nate.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, we're 

16 going to switch gears to livestock. And between 

17 livestock and materials, we're going to take a 

18 break.

19 But I want to hand it over to Kim, 

20 Chair of the Livestock Committee but also wanted 

21 to give Kim a shout-out for also being able to 

22 really roll with the punches as we lost folks on 
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1 livestock and had to pick up extra work.

2 We got it done. And it's we are a 

3 small but mighty team of four. So it is a hard 

4 pulling group on livestock. And with that, it's 

5 all yours, Kim.

6 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate. And 

7 I do like that term small but mighty. So do we 

8 need, this is a tough time period to be going 

9 through this process. So I almost want to do 

10 like a --

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do five?

12 MEMBER HUSEMAN: No, so we'll bear 

13 through. So I appreciate the floor. Our 

14 livestock workload for this spring has been 

15 centered around sunsets.

16 But through public comment and just 

17 looking at livestock in general, anticipate that 

18 this subcommittee will have a heavier lift, 

19 working through this next year and adding more to 

20 the work agenda.

21 And so I think, you know, the message 

22 was clear that there should be some communication 
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1 around swine and some other aspects too that have 

2 come up.

3 So just want to make that clear, too, 

4 that these things are definitely being heard. 

5 With that being said, we will kick off the 

6 sunsets with the alcohols.

7 You've probably heard this before in 

8 crops and the discussion around having some of 

9 these substances that you will hear over and over 

10 in different subcommittees. I'll turn the floor 

11 over to Nate for the sunset review of both 

12 ethanol and isopropyl alcohol.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Kim. 

14 Ethanol, we'll kind of talk about them together 

15 like we did in crops. They use the disinfectant 

16 sanitizer and medical treatments as applicable. 

17 Overall, we had a pretty clear discussion and 

18 input from the community that a good robust 

19 toolbox of sanitizers is helpful.

20 These are environmentally benign 

21 unless you have a really acute spill into a 

22 sensitive habitat, but otherwise, fairly low 
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1 risk. Any questions? All right.

2 MEMBER HUSEMAN: All right. Thank 

3 you, Nate. Next on the Sunset Review, we have 

4 aspirin. Aspirin as a disinfectant, sanitizer, 

5 and medical treatment as applicable, approved for 

6 health care use to reduce inflammation. So a 

7 handful of comments, all overwhelmingly in 

8 support of the continuation of the relisting of 

9 aspirin.

10 From a use standpoint, it's used as a 

11 pain reliever, a fever reducer in an 

12 over-the-counter format. From an environmental 

13 issue, essentially that there's rapid 

14 biodegradation and hydrolysis of aspirin. Very 

15 benign from that perspective.

16 It's important to the humane treatment 

17 of organic animals and is commonly used to reduce 

18 inflammation. And then if it meets, satisfies 

19 all the criteria. Any questions about aspirin? 

20 I feel like this one was relatively 

21 straightforward. Seeing none, we'll go ahead, 

22 and we'll move forwards when that might not be 
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1 quite as straightforward. I'll let Brian take 

2 the floor on vaccines.

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, thanks, Kim. 

4 I feel like I'm performing my usual role here of 

5 slowing things down and making more work for 

6 everybody.

7 So I'll just get into that. The 

8 materials is called biologics vaccines. And 

9 that's at 205.603a, as a disinfectant sanitizer 

10 and medical treatment.

11 Medical treatment is what we're 

12 talking about here. So there's confusion about 

13 this listing because vaccines are listed twice. 

14 And the other listing, I should say this listing 

15 would appear to have no, would appear to allow 

16 any vaccine period.

17 There's no qualifications for it. And 

18 but it's also listed at, let's see, 206.105(E), 

19 and that's talking about excluded methods. And 

20 there it says that the way it reads is, (E) 

21 excluded methods except for vaccines provided 

22 that the vaccines are approved in accordance with 
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1 205.600a, which is that's the process that you go 

2 through on, actually, now, I'm blanking.

3 Help me out here. Is that, is that 

4 what we do? I'm really going to slow us down 

5 now. Throwing that third one in there, just 

6 through me.

7 But anyway that's the National List 

8 regulations. Okay so in other words, that second 

9 listing is requiring that it be on the National 

10 List to be used, whereas the first listing 

11 appeared to allow any vaccines to be used.

12 Okay, so there are quite a few 

13 vaccines in use, and all of them that are not GMO 

14 are strongly supported, I believe, by all our 

15 stakeholder comments.

16 But this issue of whether or not a 

17 GMO-derived vaccine needs to be on the National 

18 List is still apparently in, there's conflicts 

19 within our certifiers, differences within our 

20 certifiers, and how that is interpreted and

21 enforced or applied.

22 So in 2019, the NOSB made a proposal 
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1 that was passed that attempted to fix this 

2 ambiguity problem. And basically, the preferred 

3 the desired language would say that vaccines, I'm 

4 going to read it here.

5 This is under the 206.105(E). And 

6 that says that excluded methods except for 

7 vaccines provided the vaccines produced through 

8 excluded methods may be used when an equivalent 

9 vaccine not produced through excluded methods is 

10 not commercially available.

11 So there's a commercially available 

12 clause there that would allow vaccines made with 

13 excluded methods to be used. That was the 

14 recommendation that was the NOSB's attempt to fix 

15 this problem.

16 And essentially, that has not been 

17 adopted by the NLP and so we're still in the same 

18 place that we were before where there are two 

19 different listings, and I'm going to read how the 

20 different responses fell into this whole matrix.

21 And one of them said that that they 

22 thought that GMO vaccines should be allowed, but 
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1 that the 2019 proposal should be implemented. 

2 And another one just said, seven more said to 

3 adopt the 2019 wording period and they didn't say 

4 really much else.

5 One said do not to adopt the 2019 In 

6 proposal, because commercial availability of 

7 these vaccines may be a barrier for farmers. And 

8 then one said, do not allow any vaccines and any 

9 GMO vaccines unless they're on the National List. 

10 So the upshot is that the wording has 

11 not been fixed within OFPA. But that, by far, 

12 the majority of the stakeholders essentially want 

13 us to continue going forward.

14 And they want to be able to just like 

15 continue interpreting it as they please. And you 

16 know, most of them are allowing pretty much any 

17 vaccine vaccines to be used whether they're GMO 

18 or not.

19 So I guess what this just points to 

20 is, that is that with one of those places where 

21 we run into a snag, everybody understands and 

22 agrees that vaccines are absolutely vital for the 
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1 health of the farm enterprise and of the animals 

2 and to alleviate animal suffering. That's, 

3 that's clear.

4 And I think that barring action by the 

5 NOP, I think we're just at this place, and we 

6 will probably just continue this listing as is 

7 and keep on moving forward and hope that, and 

8 just reiterate the request that the 2019 proposal 

9 be implemented.

10 So that's, that's kind of a mess. And 

11 I have slowed things down and so I've changed my 

12 purpose for now, but I'd love to hear more 

13 comments about it.

14 VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you, Brian. 

15 Any questions? Nate?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, could you 

17 talk a little bit more? You had said that there 

18 are, I think, seven public comments that said we 

19 should, or if I heard you're right, we should 

20 encourage the NOSB or the NFP to adopt the 2019 

21 recommendation and one that cited the barrier. 

22 Did I get that right
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1 MEMBER CALDWELL: Well, there were 

2 seven who said that the 2019 wording should be 

3 implemented or adopted. But just continue the 

4 listing as is, until that point.

5 And then a couple of others were sort 

6 of in the different sides of that. And then one 

7 said, Do not allow any GMO vaccines unless 

8 they're on the National List.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Got it. Thank 

10 you.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Which they're not. 

12 None have been reviewed for the National List.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: So just to be clear 

15 on that. No individual vaccines have been 

16 reviewed.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think the public 

18 comment that hit me hardest on this was by 

19 Organic Valley, and by the Organic Valley 

20 veterinarian who's gave us public comments in 

21 their oral comment session.

22 And just talking about how vaccines is 
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1 one of the bright spots in organic that when I 

2 have to contend with my conventional neighbors 

3 who are skeptical about organic, usually, you 

4 know, to be a good neighbor, you definitely don't 

5 want to be the disease vector of the 

6 neighborhood.

7 And so having a really nice fat toolbox of 

8 vaccines to make sure you are always a good 

9 neighbor and that's never the problem seems to be 

10 something that we've done well.

11 And the comment in particular from 

12 Organic Valley that said, commercial availability 

13 could represent a barrier for organic farmers 

14 from preventative methods which would prevent 

15 disease and suffering in their animals.

16 Additionally, there are present 

17 shortages of vaccines that have been widely 

18 available in the past. I took to heart that 

19 comment that we constantly raise the bar in a lot 

20 of ways.

21 But this one because we don't have a 

22 lot of buying power in organic, probably won't be 
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1 able to exert influence on manufacturers who are 

2 already slow to develop new vaccines, slow to 

3 bring, it's hard to bring new vaccines to market.

4 So putting commercial availability 

5 pressure, I think from what they're saying, would 

6 be kind of almost a step beyond what farmers need 

7 in that toolbox.

8 And so I think that there's a lot to 

9 be said for the current system really working and 

10 maybe the current system.

11 And I'd be interested in everyone 

12 else's opinion on this, but possibly the 2019 

13 recommendation and not being what farmers are 

14 asking for. And especially livestock producers, 

15 who are who are trying to contend with a range of 

16 disease pressures at all times.

17 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. Thanks, Nate. 

18 I agree and that comment certainly jumped out to 

19 me as well. And I think the point that, that the 

20 organic livestock industry does not have 

21 sufficient clout to actually push manufacturers 

22 into creating what we want, is very real.
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1 Yes. Now, in terms of, well, in 2019, 

2 the Board did, you know, went back and forth on 

3 this a lot. And, the option of essentially, just 

4 allowing anything on the marketplace that's 

5 available to be used was one of the options that 

6 they did not adopt.

7 So they passed the one that they did, 

8 requiring commercial availability. Well, 

9 requiring a lack of commercial availability in 

10 order to use the excluded method. Thinking about 

11 it, it seems to me that the point of the 2019 

12 proposal was not to push the industry into making 

13 new ones that are not GMOs for whatever, you 

14 know, specific disease.

15 It was just to say if they aren't 

16 available, you can use the GMO one. So I don't 

17 I'm not sure if I see the force of that argument. 

18 I get the gist of it, but I don't think in 

19 practice that it makes a difference.

20 And what all, I should have mentioned 

21 that just about all the commenters were really 

22 strong that who were endorsing 2019 proposal that 
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1 if that was implemented.

2 It was really important to have a list 

3 that was freely, you know, clearly available, of 

4 what vaccines are available. Are they GMO or 

5 not? So that, you know, basically everybody was 

6 working on the same page and able to find stuff 

7 that they need.

8 Now, having said that, I don't know, 

9 it seems to me that a given farmer and vets if 

10 they're working together in a given area when 

11 there's a disease outbreak or a threat that, you 

12 know, is imminent, they might not be able to shop 

13 around for a material that's on the list, you 

14 know, but is not available right now or in a 

15 different place or whatever.

16 So I think we have to be really careful with 

17 this. And I totally agree with you that it's a 

18 plus for organics to be good neighbors. We all 

19 really want to be good neighbors.

20 So it's a tough one. And I should 

21 point out this yellow highlighted section there 

22 of this review that is, we asked people to 
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1 comment whether this was okay or not.

2 And I really got very few responses 

3 specifically of that but what it does, it 

4 basically says that this sunset review 

5 encompasses the entire class of synthetic 

6 livestock vaccines, including those made with 

7 excluded methods.

8 The NOSB encourages the NOP to adopt 

9 the 2019 recommendation. In the meantime, our 

10 interpretation is that this listing fulfills the 

11 requirement for all livestock vaccines.

12 So in other words, they are all 

13 allowed to be used with this wording. I think 

14 maybe what we'll do, and we would love, of 

15 course, more feedback from everybody on this. We 

16 can maybe revisit whether it is wise to record 

17 required commercial availability or not again.

18 And I don't know whether there has to 

19 be that has to be separate from, I guess it is a 

20 separate sort of action from approving the 

21 sunset.

22 But I think it's, it certainly is an 
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1 important issue that we need to resolve one way 

2 or another. So any more comments? Kyla. Kyla 

3 always saves me, it's great. I love --

4 MEMBER SMITH: I don't know about 

5 that. My question is actually for Jenny. Since 

6 this one also is in the recommendations library 

7 as on hold, I wonder if you could speak to the 

8 status as you did with this.

9 DR. TUCKER: Yes, thank you for 

10 asking. And already my team had let me know what 

11 this was for. Actually, I think that the 

12 dialogue here about, there's not actually 

13 agreement on some of this, these points.

14 When we did the regulatory priorities 

15 notice last spring, this item was ranked as a low 

16 priority. There were not a lot of people who 

17 thought this was a priority that was worth 

18 putting into the pipeline.

19 And there are some concerns that have 

20 been raised even in this conversation. So this 

21 is on hold. I think based on this dialogue, I 

22 actually wonder if we should close it, honestly. 
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1 This was a low priority for the 

2 community and the system right now, I'm going to 

3 get in trouble for saying this I'm sure, but it 

4 seems to be working the best that it can. 

5 Because we have a lot of other priorities we need 

6 to deal with instead.

7 MEMBER SMITH: Thank you. Allison?

8 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. So you'll 

9 apologize for stirring up trouble and I'll 

10 apologize for putting on my lawyer hat. I have a 

11 history/lawyer question.

12 To me, from a statutory interpretation 

13 point of view, taking out the reference to 

14 205.600a and inserting the alternative language 

15 might imply that it doesn't need to be on the 

16 list at all.

17 Does anyone who was here or involved 

18 when this recommendation was passed recall if 

19 that came up? I would have expected a list it, 

20 like go through the process to list it and look 

21 at commercial availability rather than a swap. 

22 And I worry that that opens up a little, tiny, 
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1 different can of worms.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Could you say it 

3 one more time, Allison? I almost tracked you all 

4 the way. Can you repeat it one more time?

5 MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes, I've been 

6 sitting here puzzling over it. So if I were 

7 going to Court and suing someone over the 

8 recommended annotation, I would say we removed 

9 the language that said vaccines have to be 

10 approved through the National List process. And 

11 by striking that the implied intent is that you 

12 no longer wanted to require vaccines to go 

13 through the National List process.

14 MEMBER CALDWELL: So well, can I 

15 answer that quickly? Allison, I think that the 

16 answer to that is that in this listing that we 

17 are going over now, that is where, boom, they're 

18 all being considered. I think that was the 

19 response so.

20 MEMBER JOHNSON: So if the 

21 recommendation, the new language, I'm looking at 

22 commercial availability for excluded methods, was 
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1 put on, would the implication be that we no 

2 longer need the National List line item at all? 

3 Just vaccines are fine, just look at commercial 

4 availability. And GMOs are excluded methods?

5 MEMBER CALDWELL: I think I'm catching 

6 the force now of what you're saying.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: What do you think, 

8 Kyla? I mean, I don't want the certifiers to 

9 take it off.

10 MEMBER SMITH: I don't know. I don't 

11 remember that being, I don't remember the 

12 discussion from 2019. I'd have to go back and 

13 look at the transcript to see if that was 

14 discussed. I totally see where your point and I 

15 think it's valid. I don't know.

16 MEMBER CALDWELL: Allison, I did read 

17 through those, at least most of those 

18 discussions, and that would have, I think, caught 

19 my eye if it had been in there, so.

20 And I don't remember it. And I just 

21 want to apologize to everybody for getting lost 

22 in these regulations there earlier because 
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1 sometimes they get, I'm not a lawyer, obviously. 

2 And they get confusing to me.

3 So, anyway. Yes, I think that we'll 

4 move ahead with this feedback. And particularly 

5 recognizing what Jenny said, and Alison what you 

6 said. And that's going to inform how we can move 

7 forward with it, so.

8 MEMBER LEWIS: Yes, just a quick scan 

9 of the transcript jogged my memory that --

10 MEMBER CALDWELL: Wow.

11 MEMBER LEWIS: I was like, it was 

12 because the concern that if every new 

13 commercially available vaccine had to be 

14 petitioned and added to the National List it 

15 wouldn't negate the commercial availability 

16 element because if there's a whole NOSB process 

17 and a rulemaking process in order to get this 

18 non-GMO back.

19 So if you were going to apply the commercial 

20 availability requirement, you needed to be more 

21 nimble than we have with the National List 

22 process. So I think that was the rationale 
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1 behind removing the 600a reference in 105.

2 MEMBER SMITH: And 205.105(A) 

3 requires, like inclusion at 603, synthetic 

4 substances at 603. So I don't think that the new 

5 language would trump that requirement, right? If 

6 I'm, I don't know. Anyway, that's my non lawyer 

7 interpretation.

8 MEMBER JOHNSON: That's helpful.

9 MEMBER CALDWELL: And I don't remember 

10 anywhere reading that, to delete this listing. I 

11 don't think that was part of the discussion. So 

12 well, thanks, everybody. And any more questions?

13 MEMBER HUSEMAN: All right.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, thank you, 

15 Brian, for tackling that one. That's not an easy 

16 one. So thanks for taking that on.

17 MEMBER HUSEMAN: So Brian, if that one 

18 wasn't hard enough, let's talk about 

19 electrolytes.

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: Electrolytes, okay. 

21 It's interesting these approve, these listings 

22 that are for entire classes of things. And that 
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1 has worked, I think, well for us, pretty well.

2 But it does have the potential for 

3 creating a problem at some point. Yes, so 

4 electrolytes are listed at 205.603(A), basically 

5 as medical treatments.

6 And this is another one that that is 

7 widely used. These are materials, there's a 

8 whole class of materials that are electrolytes 

9 that are used in veterinary medicine basically to 

10 correct metabolic imbalances in animals. And 

11 they have really, they're very efficacious. They 

12 work fast they relieve incredible distress in 

13 animals and everybody who responded, I only got 

14 seven comments on this.

15 Maybe because you know, specific 

16 comments on this maybe because everybody was so 

17 in favor of it but they were all to relist. And 

18 one of them just had the wording with an 

19 annotation specifying their use, which I think 

20 again we've kind of gone through that.

21 That is already taken care of in this, 

22 in the way that the sunsets are laid out. So 
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1 strong support for relisting. Basically the, 

2 there's basically no animal health downside to 

3 these.

4 It's just a very powerful tool to 

5 alleviate animal suffering and to basically save 

6 the lives of cows and other animals sometimes if 

7 they have milk fever or something. So with that, 

8 is there anything more that I should cover on 

9 this one? But it just seems like one of those 

10 slam dunks, I hope.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: As a cattle 

12 producer with sick baby calves every spring, I am 

13 grateful for this listing and grateful for your 

14 really succinct summary Brian.

15 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Any other questions 

16 for Brian on electrolytes? All right, we'll move 

17 forward then. The next sunset item is for 

18 glycerin listed at 205.603(A), as a disinfectant 

19 sanitizer and medical treatment. Glycerin is 

20 allowed as a teat dip.

21 It must be produced through the 

22 hydrolysis of fats or oils. And I say that 
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1 slowly and very specifically because that is 

2 where our questions had gone.

3 So essentially, another tool in the 

4 toolbox for dairy farmers is to be able to use 

5 glycerin as a teat dip. It does have a lot of 

6 other uses.

7 But in this specific listing, it's 

8 very clear as how it is being used. The 

9 discussion component of glycerin is that we do 

10 know that there are some other natural 

11 alternatives.

12 There's some other management tools 

13 for controlling mastitis, you know, just proper 

14 hygiene and so forth. But then there becomes a 

15 time where you need this unique glycerin. And 

16 being an another effective management tool is 

17 very important.

18 We did ask the stakeholders for other 

19 natural alternatives. There were a couple of 

20 commenters that did mention castor oil is one. 

21 However, let me get to the rest of my questions 

22 here.
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1 Even though there are other natural 

2 alternatives, the toolbox is good to have. That 

3 being said, I would say that through public 

4 comment, it sounded as if from a certifier 

5 standpoint, it's quite clear how you can go back 

6 and ask manufacturers, what is your process?

7 To validate that it's not a synthetic 

8 format of how that's being produced that it is, 

9 through the hydrolysis of fats and oils. There 

10 were, you know, I would say an overwhelming 

11 suggestion to continue to keep it on the list. 

12 I'm trying to think of anything else 

13 here that was mentioned. Really, I will say that 

14 from the dairy community, the support was pretty 

15 significant. Any questions on glycerin?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just to comment, I 

17 think that this is a really good example of the 

18 role that certifiers play in general being those 

19 who invest a lot of time and resources in this 

20 due diligence.

21 And that they are this essential 

22 investigator for our industry and that I'm really 
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1 grateful for all of the work they do to make it 

2 so that we don't all have to do this every single 

3 time as an entire community or every farmer 

4 having to do it, that they're doing this homework 

5 for us.

6 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate. 

7 That being said, moving forward. Sorry. Hey, 

8 everybody awake? Hello. There we go. Thank 

9 you, Michelle.

10 Next sunset item up is for phosphoric 

11 acid. And, again, these things are full circle 

12 and multiple committees. So, Amy, I'll let you 

13 have the floor.

14 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Kim. And 

15 like Kim mentioned, phosphoric acid's also listed 

16 under handling. My table mate here that I've 

17 been conferring with, she's going to be leading 

18 that discussion later on.

19 But definitely Kyla, feel free to 

20 chime in here because there's similar community 

21 feedback that we both received. So moving into 

22 phosphoric acid.
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1 It's listed at 205.603 synthetic 

2 substances allowed for use in organic crop 

3 production. (A) as a disinfectant sanitizer and 

4 medical treatments as applicable.

5 (25) phosphoric acid allowed as an 

6 equipment cleaner provided that no direct contact 

7 with organically managed livestock or land 

8 occurs.

9 So phosphoric acid, its used within 

10 livestock. It does have many uses. It's, as 

11 mentioned, a cleaner and particularly in dairy 

12 operations. It's used to remove calcium and 

13 phosphate salt deposits from processing 

14 equipment.

15 The chemical reaction of the acid with 

16 the minerals found in deposits makes them water 

17 soluble and thus easy, easier to remove. So it 

18 really has a specific type use method, and it 

19 operates differently compared to other 

20 sanitizers.

21 For cleaning purposes, phosphoric acid is 

22 often combined with a surfactant, usually a 
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1 detergent. There's two ways to create phosphoric 

2 acid, the wet process in a thermal process.

3 International acceptance, Canada and 

4 IFOAM have similar listings similar to ours to be 

5 used on dairy equipment. Europe: CODEX and Japan 

6 do not have this substance listed based on 

7 information from the 2021 handling TR.

8 Environmental issues, so the acid will 

9 dilute quickly in the environment and there are 

10 no toxicity issues directly from its breakdown in 

11 products.

12 Effects on human health, the exact 

13 dangers really depend on the solution's 

14 concentration. Questions to the stakeholders. 

15 So really, we were pretty unanimous in supporting

16 this listing.

17 However, unanimous in the need for 

18 clarity. The clarity surrounds just its use. Is 

19 that a sanitizer? It is it a cleaner? Because 

20 really what depends on the definition and that 

21 we're consistently defining this is what occurs 

22 next. So if it's a cleaner, it does need a 
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1 rinse.

2 If it's a sanitizer, it doesn't need 

3 to be rinsed. However, there's definitely some 

4 confusion that we can help with either through, 

5 not in this process, but either an annotation or 

6 recommendation for some guidance here.

7 And this was really uniform across the 

8 board from dairy producers, cooperatives, 

9 certifiers, advocacy groups. They all have 

10 concerns that certifiers are reviewing phosphoric 

11 acid differently.

12 By not having clarity it can actually 

13 cause economic harm from a milk tanker being 

14 passed from one certifier or one certified entity 

15 to another. A water rinse will nullify the 

16 sanitation process for milking. So there is 

17 actually high concerns there.

18 One dairy producer mentions that our 

19 cleaning protocols limits its use to two times 

20 per week. But we believe it's a critical element 

21 in keeping our milk from being contaminated at 

22 the farm level. Our certifier requires a rinse 
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1 before use and then for this particular 

2 operation, they use a chlorine sanitizer rinse.

3 Some organizations note that it is a 

4 legal requirement to not rinse to not have a 

5 rinse, as per the pasteurized milk ordinance. So 

6 that's the PMO.

7 However, others contend that a rinse 

8 is not forbidden. So definitely, even when we 

9 look at handling, this issue regarding, do you 

10 need a rise or not after use, it just needs to be 

11 cleared up.

12 There was also, and this again is 

13 outside of the board's scope, but it just kind of 

14 is additional information about the need for 

15 clarity here.

16 Because additionally, if it is the 

17 policy of a certifier that all ingredients in 

18 cleaner sanitizer products must be allowed on the 

19 National List.

20 For the product to be allowed without 

21 a rinse, the vast majority of phosphoric acid 

22 products will require a rinse because they 
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1 contain inactive inert ingredients not on the 

2 National List.

3 So that again provides another layer 

4 to the onion of complexity here that can easily 

5 be cleared up. Should the material contain only 

6 phosphoric acid and water?

7 Which it sounds like there aren't very 

8 many products that are just phosphoric acid and 

9 water. But that would supposedly then have some 

10 certifiers say it's allowed without a rinse. So 

11 we just need to clear things up there.

12 Again, a solution could either come in 

13 the form of annotation or through guidance. 

14 Commenters raise compelling reasons also for the 

15 NOSB to review sanitizer disinfectants and 

16 cleaners as a work agenda item.

17 In my time on the board, I guess, I'm 

18 sorry, my third year I've heard that several 

19 times, we've reviewed lots of different 

20 sanitizers and cleaners over the years.

21 So it just seems like that would 

22 really help stakeholders in our community out if 
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1 we took on that type of work agenda item. 

2 There's another issue on clarity and this was 

3 needed just to determine if a bulk tank, and I'm 

4 learning dairy.

5 I'm a grain farmer, but I'm learning 

6 the dairy system. So after the milking has 

7 occurred, the product then moves to a storage 

8 tank and that is referred to as a bulk tank.

9 Some certifiers are not necessarily 

10 including that in the review process under this 

11 particular listing. Some are opening their 

12 viewpoint and including it.

13 So there's just uncertainty what to do 

14 at the bulk tank piece as well for rinsing or 

15 letting it just be a sanitizer and not rinsing 

16 after that.

17 And then the other piece with that is 

18 that the rinse aid that's collected if a cleaner 

19 if it's viewed as a cleaner and it is washed, 

20 that rinse aid goes into a manure pit and then 

21 that maneuver then is applied to land.

22 And we need to refer to how this is 
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1 annotated because it does say that this product 

2 cannot have direct contact with organically 

3 managed livestock or land.

4 So we just need a little bit more 

5 further clarification on that, which it does 

6 sound a little complex but actually, I think was 

7 some conversation we can get through this really 

8 easily and provide the community clarity there.

9 The other thing is 

10 cross-collaboration. The listings for livestock 

11 is a little bit different than handling. The 

12 community said that they wanted that additional 

13 language that we have in livestock here under the 

14 handling listing, as well.

15 So we'll be talking about that in the 

16 handling review. And that language is that no 

17 direct contact with organically managed livestock 

18 or land occurs.

19 And the problem with that is a 

20 producer could claim they're using handling 

21 definition rather than using the livestock 

22 definition, because it's a little bit of a 
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1 handshake, in that milking system's scope, to 

2 where handling kind of takes over.

3 So a couple of things to clarify, and 

4 then potentially some work in just clearing up 

5 how this is listed on handling is kind of the 

6 summary from the community. Any questions? 

7 Brian?

8 MEMBER CALDWELL: I have a question, 

9 and maybe Kyla will be the one who answers this 

10 one as well. One of the comments took me by 

11 surprise because of how little I know about 

12 livestock systems and some of the handling 

13 issues.

14 But the person was saying that 

15 essentially, any cleanser can be used, whether 

16 you know, anything that not on the list can be 

17 used to clean equipment and, you know, storage 

18 equipment or whatever.

19 And then if it's rinsed it, then you 

20 know, it's okay if it's rinsed. And so I guess I 

21 was wanting to ask, is that correct? And also, 

22 are there concerns about where the rinse water 
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1 goes from that?

2 If, you know, I don't know where it 

3 would go if it's not into it, like, you know, a 

4 sewer system or something like that? So I don't 

5 know, Kyler are you the one? Or --

6 MEMBER SMITH: I mean, yes, that is 

7 correct.

8 MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay. And I 

9 realized, again, coming from a cropping 

10 perspective, that that's very similar to being 

11 allowed, being able to use a dual-use sprayer, 

12 which is hardly ever done.

13 But you can use one if it's triple 

14 rinsed between the non-organic and the organic 

15 uses. So that's the analogous situation which I 

16 realized afterward.

17 So are there, I mean, Amy brought up 

18 the issue of whether this phosphoric acid rinse 

19 could then be mixed in with the manure and 

20 applied to the land. How is that handled with 

21 another product that, you know, is not on the 

22 list that is used?
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1 MEMBER SMITH: I think Nate had made 

2 reference to this earlier about the practice 

3 standard requirement for the operators to, for 

4 any input to not contaminate land, essentially, 

5 and I've had to look up the exact reference, but 

6 that's the requirement.

7 MEMBER CALDWELL: I see, I see.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: 205.200. That's 

9 the next T-shirt.

10 MEMBER BRUCH: That's not the one I 

11 was talking about. But I do understand your 

12 question, just kind of cleaners in general and 

13 the formulation.

14 It needs to be reviewed by the 

15 certifier. So it has to go through the material 

16 reviews process, and if it's not listed on one of 

17 the websites, then the certifier does review that 

18 cleaner before use.

19 I mean, I'm just referring to mixed 

20 production operations in crops using cleaners on 

21 the sprayer situation that you mentioned. The 

22 farm operation would have to have that cleaner 
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1 approved on their OSP. And then the certifier 

2 would come up with a protocol. Usually, it's the 

3 triple rent that you've mentioned.

4 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, yes.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: But I don't know that 

6 the fluent, I'm not sure what necessarily --

7 MEMBER CALDWELL: No, if it's 

8 approved, then it seems like it shouldn't be an 

9 issue. But if the commenter seemed, who I 

10 believe was knowledgeable, seemed to be implying 

11 that, that no, it doesn't have to be on the list 

12 or you know, approved by anybody as long as it's 

13 rinsed off before you know, the organic part 

14 starts.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, I mean, at a 

16 minimum, it should be on the organic system plan 

17 and reviewed by the certifier.

18 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you. Great.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

20 MEMBER CALDWELL: You know, nothing 

21 goes away, right? Everything goes somewhere. 

22 And we've, you know, got to think about it. So 
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1 yes.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Any other questions on 

3 this substance? Kyla, go ahead.

4 MEMBER SMITH: I just have more of a 

5 statement or a comment is that, I mean, you did a 

6 great job of summarizing all of the comments. 

7 And again, very similar comments in handling, 

8 which we'll talk about tomorrow.

9 But from my understanding, there's an 

10 ACA working group, a materials working group, 

11 it's an ongoing materials working group, and they 

12 did recently discuss phosphoric acid.

13 My understanding was that there was 

14 consensus on the members of that working group 

15 have the certifiers for how that substance 

16 substances being reviewed and enforced.

17 I personally am not on that working 

18 group. So I don't know really all the details 

19 that were discussed. However, I can certainly 

20 follow up and confirm this to be true and see if 

21 and what the remaining questions are.

22 Additionally, this working group does 
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1 have a best practices document that is available 

2 on the ACA's website. I don't know if the plan 

3 is to incorporate any of this information that 

4 was discussed there in the document.

5 But again, I can certainly do a 

6 follow-up and get some more information there. 

7 And I would also say that some of your comments, 

8 as you indicated, apply more broadly to 

9 sanitizers in general. And so yes, perhaps we'll 

10 discuss that more as a future work agenda item.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Kyla. I 

12 really appreciate that. And I'd love to hear the 

13 follow-up so I can include that and embed those 

14 links for best practices if they're developed 

15 into this document so can be used as a resource 

16 to clear up this confusion. So doesn't sound 

17 hard to clear it up but it just needs to be 

18 cleared up. Nate?

19 MEMBER LEWIS: Just to add into that 

20 conversation, the 1999 recommendation originally 

21 had some additional language added to this 

22 annotation, which clearly didn't make it into at 
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1 least the regulations we have now.

2 But it had to do about minimizing 

3 contamination of surface water. So it sort of 

4 acknowledged that it's using a flush system, 

5 which may end up in a manure lagoon, which may 

6 end up on land.

7 And the need is for the producer to 

8 minimize that contamination, or the effects of 

9 that contamination rather than us needing to go 

10 down into the very nitty-gritty of that.

11 So anyway, we should include that in 

12 the subsequent reviews for the fall, sort of the 

13 evolution of where it started, where it went, and 

14 make sure we're staying in our lane there.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, absolutely. I 

16 really appreciate that archival information. We 

17 have a rich history there. And we want to, as 

18 you said, incorporate that in future reviews. 

19 Thank you.

20 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Anything else? Great 

21 review, Amy. And I think you've captured a lot 

22 of what was said in public comment and there's 
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1 more to come as we get close to the fall on 

2 phosphoric acid as it pertains to the livestock 

3 subcommittee.

4 Okay, next we'll move forward to 

5 hydrated lime. Again, another substance that is 

6 across multiple subcommittees. Hydrated lime, 

7 listed at 205.603(B), this is my substance.

8 As a topical treatment, external 

9 parasiticide, or local anesthetic as applicable. 

10 Very specifically as an external pest control, 

11 not permitted to cauterize physical altercations 

12 or deodorize animal waste.

13 Going through, or I guess taking it back one 

14 more step. Essentially, hydrated lime is yet 

15 another tool in the livestock toolbox for helping 

16 to control parasitic mites in sheep, goats, 

17 cattle, and other livestock. Mange is not a fun 

18 thing to have to manage through.

19 So this has definitely been a 

20 much-needed and welcomed product for helping to 

21 have best practices for animal welfare. I would 

22 even go to that extent.
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1 In previous sunset reviews, there's 

2 been a significant amount of support to relist. 

3 And I would say that that's not uncommon in this 

4 particular round for the spring. The majority of 

5 the public comment around the utilization of 

6 hydrated lime as a parasite control is very clear 

7 cut.

8 However, in saying that, there is some 

9 concern about if the listing is clear enough to 

10 not use hydrated lime in ways that it's not 

11 intended for.

12 For instance, as a deodorizer. It 

13 seems to me that in the listing, it's quite clear 

14 what it is used for. But that there were there 

15 were some very specific comments brought up that 

16 an annotation reiterating or maybe being more 

17 direct with it's not a deodorizer.

18 Is it being used in that in that 

19 fashion and not in its intended use? 

20 Questionable. But as it is listed, as it is 

21 intended it is, it's supported. I'd say there 

22 was a handful, maybe, less than ten comments in 
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1 total.

2 But that's kind of the direction of the 

3 comments, but any questions? Statements? All 

4 right, we'll move forward. For the last sunset 

5 item, which will be mineral oil. And Brian, I'll 

6 let you conclude us on the livestock side.

7 MEMBER CALDWELL: This will be my last 

8 stab for the day. Thank goodness. Yes, so 

9 mineral oils are another parasiticide. Same 

10 thing, 205.603b, and it's for use as, for topical 

11 use and as a lubricant. And there's a little bit 

12 of confusion about just the sort of duplication 

13 almost with mineral oil.

14 Because we approved the sunset last year for 

15 mineral oil under 605.603(A), which was for 

16 internal use of mineral oil. And this is for 

17 external use.

18 And maybe in the future, we can line 

19 them up so they're in the same year but there's 

20 just two listings, two different spots. And so 

21 what we're talking about here is for use as a 

22 parasiticide externally.
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1 And last year, we approved it for use 

2 internally for bloat and intestinal blockage. So 

3 for this use, for the external use, there were 

4 eight comments, all in favor of relisting.

5 And it seems like, again, a very, 

6 pretty straightforward, and benign use to 

7 alleviate when different kinds of parasites get 

8 out of control, you've got to do something. And 

9 again, this is just another tool in the toolbox 

10 that can be used.

11 In terms of the questions that we 

12 asked for the stakeholders, I believe it was just 

13 one, or maybe one or two answered that the 

14 products that they used were specifically 

15 required to be 100 percent mineral oil because 

16 one of our questions was is it possible that 

17 there were products that were sort of out on the 

18 market that were not.

19 And so that was it. One point that 

20 was made was that mineral oil is very shelf 

21 stable. So it's going to be there when you need 

22 it from, you know, from three years ago if you 
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1 didn't need it in between, you can leave it and 

2 it's there. It's ready. So any questions on 

3 that?

4 MEMBER HUSEMAN: All right, thank you, 

5 Brian. If there's no questions from Bryan, we're 

6 good. And Nate, I'll turn it back to you. That 

7 concludes the livestock sunset review.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, folks. 

9 Let's take a 15 minute break. We're going to 

10 come back in 15 minutes.

11 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

12 went off the record at 3:37 p.m. and resumed at 

13 3:58 p.m.)

14 MR. TURNER: Are you waiting for me?

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not yet. I can't 

16 see Jerry, or -- members, you get back to your 

17 seats now. How many extra? We got three extra 

18 minutes? Yeah. All right, Wood, it's all yours.

19 MR. TURNER: Thanks, I was chatting 

20 with Kim, and Kim wanted me to tell a joke or do 

21 something like jumping jacks. I'm not going to 

22 do those things. You guys have all done that on 
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1 your own, but.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, Kim, do you 

3 have any jokes?

4 MR. TURNER: We're trying to get 

5 through the afternoon.

6 MS. HUSEMAN: Fine, I'll go ahead and 

7 give you one. Okay, this is a quintessential dad 

8 joke or mom joke in this case. All right. Nate, 

9 do trees poop? 

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No.

11 MS. HUSEMAN: How do we get #2 

12 pencils?

13 (Laughter.)

14 MR. TURNER: And that's now on the 

15 public record, and so that's --

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's the fault 

17 of the public record.

18 MR. TURNER: And that's great. 

19 Fabulous.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood, sorry. 

21 Wait, before we get started, I just wanted to 

22 remind everyone that we have a reception tonight 
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1 hosted by Georgia Organics. It's going to be at 

2 the Wrecking Bar Brewpub, 292 Moreland Avenue NE 

3 at 6:30 -- 5:30, 5:30. Right after this, let's 

4 head there, folks. All yours, Wood.

5 MR. TURNER: Thanks. We'll try to 

6 keep this -- I know everybody's getting tired and 

7 it's that time of day, but let's -- we have a few 

8 things to discuss in materials. We'll discuss 

9 Research Priorities, and we'll talk about the 

10 Excluded Methods TBD list and our Technical 

11 Report Template update.

12 I'll start on Research Priorities. I 

13 just wanted to, you know, just commend the whole 

14 Board for really leaning into this process. I 

15 think and I definitely feel like a couple of 

16 years is what the Research Priorities process was 

17 sort of intended to do was a little unclear to 

18 me. Maybe it was because I was inheriting this 

19 committee, or I'm not sure what was happening, 

20 but it was less clear to me. As we sort of 

21 worked through it, and I think, engaged some of 

22 the external stakeholders, some of the folks are 
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1 actually using these recommendations and really 

2 tried to sort of engage everybody on the Board in 

3 this process, and I think it's become more clear 

4 to me, and I just want to, you know, acknowledge 

5 peoples on the Board's efforts to try to 

6 invigorate this process. So thank you, there.

7 I think, you know, this is a -- to 

8 remind the community and to remind the Board, 

9 this is really a living document for the new 

10 Board Members. It's something that is used by 

11 funding organizations and research organizations 

12 to essentially motivate and inspire deeper 

13 organic research on a variety of topics that we 

14 the Board and the community, as a whole, feels 

15 are important in driving and improving what we're 

16 doing here and what our mandate is. And it 

17 really does begin to feel like a living document 

18 over time. I think we're -- at first, I 

19 wondered, why do we keep rolling things over year 

20 over year, and why do things keep showing up, and 

21 why do we keep putting these things on the list 

22 every year and every year? And the reason we're 
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1 putting it on the list year over year is because 

2 they're important, and we consider them 

3 important, and we need more research. We want to 

4 continue to remind the community at large and all 

5 the talented researchers out there that these are 

6 the things that really matter to our community. 

7 So I appreciate that.

8 I'm going to start here by the way 

9 we're organized is the Materials Subcommittee has 

10 members and members of that committee liaise to 

11 the other review committees and sort of help to 

12 stimulate discussions within those committees on 

13 Research Priorities. And so I'm going to kick it 

14 over to Brian for a minute to just offer a view. 

15 And you happen to be liaising on livestock and 

16 crops to the Materials Subcommittee and so I 

17 wanted to give you a chance to just speak for a 

18 minute about the review process and that 

19 discussion on Resource Priorities since our last 

20 cycle.

21 MR. CALDWELL: Great. Thanks, Wood. 

22 Yeah, I've been at least on the outskirts of 
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1 academia and have been participating in a lot of 

2 organic cropping research over the years and in 

3 my previous job at Cornell. And I think that 

4 these lists that we have are really good. I've 

5 also been part of a lot of grower focus groups 

6 and things like that where we try to suggest to 

7 researchers what we would like to see happen. 

8 And these lists are the best that I've ever seen. 

9 They're very specific, they're clear, and they 

10 just zone in on really important issues.

11 And so, rather than getting, you know, 

12 a bunch of things, like, oh, yeah, a better weed 

13 control. Oh, you know, please help us with, you 

14 know, corn diseases. These are really well 

15 crafted, I think, and so I believe in that living 

16 document, Wood, that you're talking about. I 

17 think it's really, really useful and important.

18 So anyways, in terms of the Livestock 

19 Subcommittee, I wanted to just talk about what we 

20 have here compared to last year. And basically, 

21 from the comments that we got last year, we tried 

22 to enhance or reword some of these a little bit 
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1 to bring forth breeding as being very important. 

2 Livestock rations that are regionally based and 

3 diversed to support the connections between local 

4 crop farmers and livestock people. And then the 

5 parasiticides is really important. So they 

6 didn't get changed a lot. They got consolidated 

7 and sort of bringing some of those topics to the 

8 front.

9 I do want to say we've got a lot of 

10 great comments in this round of written comments 

11 that we will work hard on over, you know, over 

12 the summer, basically, but we haven't digested 

13 them yet. So, you know, we just saw them a few 

14 weeks ago for the first time. But there's a lot 

15 in there and we really appreciate that.

16 For livestock or for crops, I mean, 

17 basically what we've done so far, again from 

18 comments from like a year ago, is we've added 

19 three more research items to the crop list. And 

20 they are research into PFAS alternatives and 

21 remediation, which we hear loud and clear. And 

22 it's certainly, our friends in Maine are just, 
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1 you know, that was a total upsetting of the apple 

2 cart with their whole ag program, and you know, 

3 producers, organic and non-organic.

4 The economic impacts of GMOs on 

5 organic crops was added. And finally, the extent 

6 and impact of plastic use. And that goes right 

7 back to our first question and answer period 

8 after the presentation this morning about being 

9 able to quantify. Somebody had mentioned that we 

10 should be able to quantify the number -- oh, yes, 

11 Logan, you were talking about that -- how many 

12 acres of plastic production are there, and how 

13 big of a factor is this? And I think, of course, 

14 we're going to find that for some crops it's 

15 huge. So but we really do need those numbers, 

16 and it doesn't have to be university researchers 

17 who find out information for this. It can be 

18 NASS and other groups that are getting data. So 

19 that's a quick one. Wood, anything else that you 

20 wanted me to mention?

21 MR. TURNER: No, that's great. Thank 

22 you.
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1 MR. CALDWELL: All right.

2 MR. TURNER: And I think it's good and 

3 I would say similar on the handling side. And I 

4 think we had sort of less or fewer additions to 

5 our rolling list. But certainly, your examples 

6 are great in terms of just sort of us listening 

7 to what we're hearing from the community about 

8 how to elevate some of these issues.

9 And so, you know, I think some of the 

10 ones that we've been focused on in handling, 

11 specifically, sanitizers and BPA, ancillary 

12 ingredient review process, and other issues, and 

13 heavy metal contamination, essentiality, have all 

14 been important to handling. And you know, I 

15 think the Research Priorities that come out of 

16 materials specifically related to some of our 

17 understanding of Excluded Methods is incredibly 

18 important, so. Yeah, you know, I think it's a 

19 living process.

20 And I would just say, you know, the 

21 feedback we've gotten from the community, I just 

22 want to offer a little bit of a summary here of 
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1 some of the things we've heard. You know, lots 

2 of support for people who really, really -- I 

3 think I'm buoyed by the fact that there's good 

4 support from the community as a whole around 

5 these Research Priorities, which makes me feel 

6 like we're doing a pretty good job here of 

7 hitting the mark. I really appreciate it when 

8 organizations call out specific Research 

9 Priorities.

10 For example, we've seen references to 

11 the one in Livestock around methylamine, and a 

12 reference to the one in Livestock around climate 

13 change mitigation, and a reference certainly 

14 concerned about strategies for managing insects 

15 and weeds under crops, and we hear that over 

16 again. And which I really appreciate that kind 

17 of feedback. Support for continued research 

18 opportunities in heavy metal contamination and 

19 PFAS, of course.

20 And then, you know, always some really 

21 good clarification points. I was particularly 

22 interested in the fact that someone commented on 
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1 the fact that, you know, just talking about 

2 carbon sequestration, and just learning about 

3 carbon sequestration opportunities in organic is 

4 not enough. We've got to be focused on reducing 

5 greenhouse gas emissions, and I completely agree. 

6 And certainly, we'll take that to heart I think 

7 as we work on this document for the fall.

8 There's a reference that keeps coming 

9 up, and I think there's been some confusion about 

10 this, related to a Research Priority on copper 

11 sulfate and rice production. We have included 

12 that, and it continues to get called out as being 

13 something we're not including and has not been 

14 rolling over. It is rolling over. And I just 

15 wanted to make sure that the community 

16 understands that. It's already not only 

17 referenced specifically under number 5 in the 

18 crops Research Priorities, but there's actually 

19 an entire section that outlines a number of 

20 specific issues that we're really particularly 

21 concerned about, and not relative to copper usage 

22 in organic rice production period, the end. So 
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1 it's really designed to kind of focus on that 

2 larger question, and I would encourage the Crops 

3 Subcommittee to sort of make sure we feel like 

4 that's the way we've got it articulated in the 

5 document is covering that particular topic 

6 effectively.

7 There was some good feedback as well 

8 on potentially thinking about Research Priorities 

9 related to predator and wild animal management in 

10 and around organic farms, racial inclusivity, and 

11 research in that area.

12 I did like some of the feedback we 

13 heard about sort of trying to formalize our 

14 process here about -- I think people, in general, 

15 appreciated hearing from NIFA in our cycle and 

16 wanting to have some formality to that process 

17 maybe every couple of years, and getting NIFA in 

18 here so that we can be in dialogue about how this 

19 research is being used, and really making sure 

20 there's appropriate feedback loops here.

21 Interesting feedback, one of the 

22 things we try to do in these documents, and I 
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1 just want to let everyone know, we try and if 

2 there's a need, we have a summary section in the 

3 Research Priorities, and then we also have a much 

4 deeper dive in some the categories, as well. 

5 Sometimes the summary priority, as written, is 

6 enough, I would argue. And sometimes it's 

7 intended to sort of be enough. And so I think 

8 one organization, in particular, said there's a 

9 mismatch between the fact that we have the 

10 Livestock Priority Number 2 is not spelled out in 

11 more detail. But on some level, I think we felt 

12 -- and correct me if I'm wrong on this, Brian, 

13 and others on the Livestock Subcommittee -- that 

14 we'd said enough relative to Number 2, the 

15 efficacy of natural parasiticides and 

16 methodologies under Livestock, and didn't spell 

17 that out in more detail.

18 So maybe we should be clear about that 

19 in the larger document compared to the summary, 

20 but they're not always intended to sort of 

21 necessarily have a full sort of spell out of more 

22 detail to drive the Research Priority. I'm open 
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1 to thoughts on that, certainly.

2 There were a few things that, you 

3 know, came out of the process. Some of the 

4 feedback didn't really feel like -- it didn't 

5 really feel like they would fall under Research 

6 Priorities. You know, should Research 

7 Priorities, for example, be focused on domestic 

8 sources of organic -- understanding domestic 

9 sources of organic poultry feed or clarifying the 

10 process for annotations. I'm not sure those are 

11 research priorities, necessarily, but good 

12 feedback, and happy to use the Research 

13 Priorities process as a means to sort of getting 

14 some of that feedback.

15 So yeah, I really appreciate it, and I 

16 really appreciated hearing from the community, 

17 and definitely encouraging all of the committees 

18 to sort of internalize these comments and see if 

19 we can use the next several months to tighten up 

20 some of these Research Priorities even further. 

21 So that's what I wanted to share. I'm happy to 

22 take any questions or any discussion.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

2 ahead.

3 MS. BRUCH: Wood, thanks so much for 

4 your leadership in this area. I just reviewed 

5 all of these priorities across all of the 

6 subcommittees, and they're incredibly important, 

7 and the feedback was tremendous, as well, on 

8 them. I think my question has always been on 

9 that feedback loop. I think getting NIFA here is 

10 helpful to know how many groups are taking on 

11 these issues. I always request the idea of, you 

12 know, what's happening with that, and how are we 

13 executing on them, and what can we learn about 

14 them. Because, especially as a farmer, there's 

15 some of these that are extremely critical, and I 

16 know where a bunch of us are doing our own 

17 non-farm research and would love, you know, kind 

18 of an aggregated spot for this stuff to land.

19 I just think there's a huge 

20 opportunity for the Board to be more of a 

21 clearing house for the exchange of information to 

22 the community who are requesting this and then to 
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1 the community to return this information if 

2 possible. And I think I might have -- I don't 

3 know. I've always tried to wrestle with this, 

4 and how can we do this?

5 But three of these priorities, and two 

6 of them are new that I'd like to highlight, but 

7 three total I think would fit well in the organic 

8 transition initiative. This OTI that we talked 

9 about earlier in the meeting. So that's 

10 expanding markets. So I think there's three of 

11 them here that maybe we could highlight to the 

12 administration and highlight to grant writers, 

13 please take these issues up. We need them and we 

14 want to be able to expand our markets.

15 And the three that I'm mentioning, one 

16 is on the Livestock list that's already developed 

17 that we did receive feedback on about expanding 

18 Livestock rotations -- expanding Livestock feed 

19 situations to include rotations that accept 

20 ingredients that are rotational crops. And I'm 

21 just kind of paraphrasing that, but essentially, 

22 that they're not just looking at corn and beans 
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1 for some of their feed rations, that they're 

2 looking at rotational crops which really ties 

3 back into building the markets. I believe 

4 rotational crops were one of the five that were 

5 highlighted by the administration. So I would 

6 love to get them involved if possible and bring 

7 this list to them.

8 The two also that were new, which I 

9 thought were really cool, is eliminating the 

10 barriers to access organic-produced food. That 

11 was a new one, I believe, and I don't think it's 

12 on the list, but that one really resonated with 

13 me, too, and it ties in beautifully with market 

14 expansion.

15 And the third one is Carolyn's topic, 

16 and we have to bring that up. Again, our crop 

17 insurance document that we love. To get this 

18 actuarial information, this is kind of the part, 

19 too. We need to have rotational crops and we 

20 need to have markets for them, but we also need 

21 to have the coverage for these crops that are 

22 common sense crops that producers need to 
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1 produce.

2 So I don't know if it's possible to 

3 outreach somehow or someway, but I do know 

4 there's the grant process that Jenny mentioned, 

5 and I think it's going to be conducted here 

6 shortly. But maybe incorporate those in the 

7 process, potentially. And then also reach out to 

8 our private partners to see, you know, our 

9 universities or any companies that are working on 

10 these initiatives. I know there's a lot of 

11 interest in what we're doing for organic 

12 production, and I really think getting this list 

13 to as many people that can help us, the better.

14 So that's my thoughts on that. But 

15 thank you so much because this is incredible. 

16 The collection of just needs that the community 

17 has.

18 MS. HUSEMAN: I'm sorry. I have a 

19 quick question. Can you reiterate the second 

20 one?

21 MS. BRUCH: About eliminating barriers 

22 to access organic-produced food?
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1 MS. HUSEMAN: Awesome.

2 MS. BRUCH: That was a community 

3 comment, and that really resonated with me. And 

4 I don't believe it's on our list.

5 MS. HUSEMAN: Yeah.

6 MS. BRUCH: And the crop insurance one 

7 isn't on our list either. But they really just 

8 dovetail nicely with this overall market 

9 expansion umbrella that we're undertaking.

10 MS. HUSEMAN: Excellent. Thank you, 

11 Amy.

12 MS. BRUCH: Hey, no problem, Kim. 

13 Thank you.

14 MR. TURNER: And for certain those are 

15 really catches, Amy. Nate? Sorry.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, thank you. I 

17 think Carolyn was next.

18 MR. TURNER: Oh, Carolyn was next. 

19 Sorry.

20 MS. DIMITRI: Oh, great. Thank you. 

21 So you know Research Priorities always make me 

22 happy, as a researcher. But I look at some of 
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1 these things like, especially, barriers to 

2 transitioning to organic production, and there's 

3 a lot of research in that general area. And so I 

4 wonder how do we bridge the research world -- I 

5 mean, I actually have several publications in 

6 that general area in terms of how handlers can or 

7 whether they're helping farmers transition to 

8 organic production. So I guess, are there 

9 creative ways for us to think about connections 

10 with researchers who are doing this kind of work 

11 because like some of it's done, and people don't 

12 really hear or don't know about it.

13 And along those lines, sometimes if 

14 you go to OREI with a question like barriers, to 

15 transitioning, to organic production, you might 

16 see like there are 50 papers on that. And I'm 

17 just making up the number. And then the panel 

18 will say, like, why should we take scarce 

19 resources and add more research into that 

20 particular question since we already have looked 

21 at it? Thank you.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison and then 
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1 Nate.

2 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you. This is such

3 an impressive list. I hesitate to offer to add 

4 more to it, but I'm going to anyways. Amy, I 

5 really liked your suggestion of expanding the 

6 markets umbrella, and I was thinking along the 

7 same lines, and the points you raised, I 

8 definitely agree with.

9 I think that under general there is 

10 the influencing access to organic foods, and so 

11 maybe we'll, like, refine the general category or 

12 subset it or something like that.

13 And the other one that I would add to 

14 that list is around markets for rotation crops. 

15 You know, we see so much momentum around 

16 plant-based foods right now, but they're often 

17 involving excluded methods, and they're not 

18 looking very carefully at their production 

19 systems, and I keep wondering why the organic 

20 pulse burger isn't making a big splash on the 

21 market. And I think it's for lack of investment 

22 and research. So is that something that our 
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1 public followers could help create a market for?

2 And the other area I wanted to flag is 

3 there's a long-standing push to have our research 

4 agencies invest more in publicly available and 

5 regionally relevant season breeds. And we have 

6 some specific breeding asks here but reiterating 

7 that community priority on our research agenda I 

8 think would be helpful.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate?

10 MR. LEWIS: That mental sky walker is 

11 our only hope, kind of thing. I really want to 

12 echo commending the group for the synthesis of 

13 all these ideas. I wondered if the group would 

14 be open to also including some input to NIFA on 

15 administration of the grants, and I'm mainly --

16 specifically thinking about match waivers.

17 Currently, NIFA allows match waivers 

18 for a type of research that's applicable to many 

19 agricultural commodities, and for also for minor 

20 commodities. And I personally would like to see 

21 an additional waiver opportunity for 1890 

22 land-grant universities kind of in response to 
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1 the Equity Commission's suggestion about how 

2 inequities and funding for, particularly, 1890s 

3 universities has met to missing out on a lot of 

4 USDA research dollars. And while that's not 

5 necessarily the federal government's fault, we 

6 can take steps to perhaps ameliorate some of that 

7 inequity in funding. So the idea would be that 

8 we suggest they add a third potential waiver for 

9 match for 1890 universities.

10 And I don't mean to put you on the 

11 spot, Franklin, but you are a researcher at an 

12 1890 university and if you have any comments on 

13 difficulties in obtaining USDA research dollars, 

14 I think that would help illuminate for me the 

15 need to add something like that to this 

16 particular document.

17 MR. QUARCOO: Yeah, you and I had 

18 talked about it a couple of days ago. Yes, the 

19 money is there, and then there are all these 

20 requirements that make the money unavailable even 

21 though you qualify for it. But what you need to 

22 do in order to get the money becomes a problem. 
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1 Then internally you're not trying to find out the 

2 match, and so then -- in seconds. So that's a 

3 very important point. The monies is announced 

4 and is supposed to be available, but there are 

5 institutional differences that make a whole lot 

6 of difference in whether you actually get to have 

7 assisted advance. So that's a very important 

8 point. Thanks.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

10 for Wood or for Brian on Research Priorities? 

11 Great. Well, thank you, Wood.

12 MR. WOOD: Great. Thanks. And we'll 

13 move to our next agenda item, and thanks for that 

14 discussion. I'll turn it over to Mindee who's 

15 going to take us through an update on the 

16 Excluded Methods TBD list. Are you ready for us, 

17 Mindee?

18 MS. JEFFERY: Thank you, Wood.

19 (Off-microphone comments.)

20 MS. JEFFERY: Oh, we'll just do it 

21 when we go to the TR template. You should be 

22 fine otherwise. Thank you.
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1 Thank you everyone for continuing this 

2 work together on the Excluded Methods front, in 

3 general. As an introduction on the topic of 

4 Excluded Methods in organic, I'm going to pull a 

5 few excerpts from a current public comment 

6 submitted by a retailer. Since the passage of 

7 the Organic Food Productions Act, the organic 

8 community has made it exceedingly clear that 

9 genetic engineering, GE products, and the methods 

10 they perpetuate, are not welcome in organic. I'm 

11 excerpting here from their larger comment. 

12 Customers and retailers do not want GE in 

13 organic, period. No exceptions, and no gray 

14 areas. It is this clear and unwavering bright 

15 line that retailers and customers rely on.

16 Later in their comment, they say, with 

17 implementation of the National Bioengineered Food 

18 Disclosure Standard and infiltration of 

19 manipulatable regenerative claims, the bright 

20 line and non-GE integrity that organic 

21 certification provides has become even more 

22 critical to consumers and retailers alike.
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1 I really appreciate the absolute 

2 clarity from stakeholders on Excluded Methods and 

3 that NOSB recommendations have always been 

4 unanimous on this front. And we have heard from 

5 the program repeatedly that GMOs, and gene 

6 editing techniques, and biotechnologies are 

7 prohibited from use in organic.

8 With that said, as for the TBD list 

9 work, and just for clarity for the community's 

10 sake, we definitely intended to do this 

11 information gathering in the open docket, and an 

12 opportunity just didn't become available to us. 

13 I do understand that the program submitted the 

14 request to open the docket in a timely manner, 

15 but that didn't work out. So we hustled to meet 

16 a deadline for the submission for the discussion 

17 documents. So thanks again to the stakeholders 

18 who have shown up and consistently providing 

19 information at useful depths.

20 As far as public comments go on these 

21 documents, the general comments from one group 

22 asserted that traditional plant-breeding methods
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1 should be allowed and supported while GE 

2 technologies should be prohibited under the 

3 organic label. A former group commented that 

4 they concur that NOP should continue to assert 

5 that organic is different. Excluded Methods, 

6 including methods used to genetically modify 

7 organisms or influence their growth and 

8 development by means that are not possible under 

9 natural conditions or processes, are very clearly 

10 not allowed or wanted in organic production.

11 And then comments from a couple of 

12 seed companies were really extensive. One seed 

13 company commented that many of the TBD list 

14 techniques are highly integrated into modern 

15 varieties being used in organic crops and that 

16 they may otherwise be achieved, these seed 

17 varieties, through natural breeding, but it could 

18 take five to ten times longer. And they are 

19 cautioning that to now label some of these 

20 techniques as Excluded Methods would mean 

21 removing so many current varieties and some used 

22 by organic growers. This seed stakeholder both 
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1 urged the NOSB to make final decisions on the TB 

2 list and encouraged the swift implementation of 

3 the 2018 and 2019 NOSB recommendations for 

4 strengthening organic seed guidance and that 

5 those need to be prioritized.

6 So there's this tension here being 

7 expressed around which work is more functional 

8 for organic seed futures and the development and 

9 expanded use. This tension of making decisions 

10 on the TBD list and strengthening organic seed 

11 requirements.

12 And then another organic seed producer 

13 stated that we feel that the stated definitions

14 in the TBD list document are generally sufficient 

15 and that there are some minor exceptions. But 

16 that's really in the weeds and we'll take that 

17 back to the subcommittee. And this commenter 

18 stated that as with any scientific protocol, the 

19 individual steps in a procedure will vary from 

20 one research institution to another, and even 

21 between protocols within the same institution 

22 depending on the desired outcome. Outlining 
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1 these steps in more detail than has already been 

2 provided by the discussion document is not a 

3 useful exercise. More importantly, is the 

4 consideration that for any of the techniques 

5 being discussed in this document, a prohibitive 

6 substance could be used to induce the desired 

7 mutations, and so too could protocols be followed 

8 that do not use a prohibited substance.

9 So asserting here that they're 

10 attempting to list all the plant varieties and 

11 all of the ways in which the plant TBD list 

12 techniques could be used and documenting all of 

13 those things, this seed company sees that as a 

14 Herculean task. And the commenter goes on to say 

15 that the TBD list techniques are important 

16 breeding tools that increase genetic variation 

17 and speed up the breeding process. At this 

18 point, trying to untangle modern varieties grown 

19 in organic systems which have a connection to one 

20 of these techniques and their pedigrees puts an 

21 undue burden on the system.

22 And then as they have written in 
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1 numerous comments, the continued focus on 

2 breeding techniques is taking away precious NOSB 

3 resources from the much more pressing issue of 

4 addressing the organic seed usage loophole. 

5 According to the seed stakeholder, the reality is 

6 that all of the techniques in this discussion 

7 document are not traceable. Whatever decision 

8 the NOSB takes on these techniques will be 

9 unenforceable. We need the NOSB's help to close 

10 the organic seed loophole, which would provide a 

11 signal to the market that investing in organic 

12 seed breeding and development is a sound business 

13 model.

14 And then, asserting that as long as 

15 conventional seed is allowed in an organic 

16 system, it's not possible to regulate these 

17 untraceable breeding techniques. Furthermore, 

18 expecting companies such as ours, who develop and 

19 sell organic seed to self-prolif our breeding 

20 activities to avoid using techniques that have 

21 been determined to be excluded by the NOSB but 

22 are otherwise untraceable and unregulated, 
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1 provides a significant competitive advantage to 

2 the seed companies who are selling conventional 

3 untreated seed into the very same organic 

4 markets.

5 And so there we have all the 

6 background tensions and possibilities for the 

7 Herculean task of looking at the TBD list. And 

8 at this stage, I'm going to open it up to the 

9 Board for general comments. And we have some 

10 really amazing plant breeding experts on the 

11 Board, and I'm very excited about that. And if 

12 y'all want to reflect on any of the specifics 

13 that you saw in public comments about the 

14 specific techniques and/or the tension of our 

15 path forwards?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

17 Mindee from the Board? Amy, please go ahead.

18 MS. BRUCH: Mindee, I just want to say 

19 thank you for being a champion in this area. 

20 This is extremely important to our community and 

21 thank you so much for the passion you have behind 

22 it to get it over the finish line. I appreciate 
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1 it.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear. 

3 Brian, please go ahead.

4 MR. CALDWELL: Well, I want to say the 

5 same thing. Mindee's leadership has been really 

6 wonderful in all this.

7 And I guess I just want to put out 

8 there that our stakeholders in the organic 

9 community is a really big group. Including the 

10 sort of consumers at the base, retailers, 

11 farmers, and seed breeders, amongst a lot of 

12 other people, handlers. But the organic seed 

13 breeding community comes out of a very and sort 

14 of like high pressure academic -- most of them, a 

15 high-pressure academic furnace, and they tend to 

16 see things a little differently than a person 

17 like me and maybe many of our consumers do.

18 Anybody who thinks that or who would 

19 call bombarding a seed with radiation as a 

20 traditional breeding method, I think the 

21 traditional people of our world would really take 

22 umbrage of that because they were the ones that 
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1 some of our indigenous cultures for thousands and 

2 thousands of years used mass selection 

3 techniques, individual, and you know just all 

4 kinds of things that a lot of them we don't even 

5 know exactly how they produced. But they were 

6 the ones who bred corn from teosinte, and made 

7 incredible, incredible leaps and progress in 

8 terms of the amazing array of foods that we eat. 

9 And those are the methods that I would want to 

10 be called traditional. And so that word bothers 

11 me sometimes when I hear it.

12 But I also think that we need to 

13 decide whether we do want, you know, some 

14 extremely toxic chemicals to be used in our plant 

15 breeding process, and radiation, and other 

16 methods like that. And my personal, you know, 

17 preference is no. And then we need to decide 

18 whether we're going to grandfather stuff in that 

19 we cannot, you know, figure out from the past 

20 efforts of 30 years or more of what's been done, 

21 and say that, okay, from this point forward, 

22 organic plant breeding will not have these. Or 
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1 well, in other words, I think we have to make 

2 these decisions and not be necessarily swayed by 

3 a small group within the organic community 

4 saying, well, that really puts us or that's a lot 

5 of work for us or it feels impossible or 

6 something. I think we really need to decide what 

7 makes sense.

8 We have to remember that organic 

9 farming when it originated 100 years ago or more, 

10 and farmers said I don't want to use conventional 

11 chemical fertilizers. And that's what they said, 

12 and people thought they were completely nuts and 

13 out of their minds. And they thought that for 70 

14 years, until then, well, there's this dead zone, 

15 you know, at the Gulf of Mexico. And so maybe 

16 some of these things take a while before they 

17 kind of surface.

18 So I think, again, we need to be, you 

19 know, we need to look inward as much as we can 

20 and decide what we really want in the system and 

21 then just make it work as best we can, and you 

22 know, consider all of our stakeholders, including 
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1 our plant breeders, but a lot of other people 

2 too, anyways.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions? 

4 Oh, Nate and then Allison.

5 MR. CALDWELL: Maybe more of a 

6 question to the program, but NOSB passed a 

7 recommendation related to seeds and the use of 

8 non-organic seeds and continuous improvement. I'm 

9 curious if there's a timeline on that from the 

10 program.

11 MS. TUCKER: Yeah, I can give a quick 

12 update on that recommendation. That was in the 

13 Regulatory Priorities process last spring and 

14 raised by the community as a high priority to 

15 look at. And so the team did some, amongst all 

16 this other rulemaking, they managed to do a 

17 really nice analysis piece on all the different 

18 things we could do around that.

19 I think there's some rules that take a 

20 long time. I do think there's some things that 

21 we can actively do before we decide we really 

22 need to do rulemaking on this. And so the team 
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1 has laid out some recommended options for how to 

2 proceed. We needed to get through the rules that 

3 we've got through. I do think that this topic is 

4 next to sort of talk about where to go next.

5 But I do think a lot of these 

6 recommendations may -- well, this particular 

7 recommendation related to seed, may actually live 

8 more with like accreditation and even compliance 

9 and enforcement than standards, and so taking 

10 action in the right place and at the right time. 

11 The team -- we do have some compliance 

12 challenges. Let's see, there have been some 

13 complaints, and then the complaint investigations 

14 that led to adverse actions related to seed. And 

15 so it is part of the broader and sort of 

16 portfolio of complaints in enforcement where we 

17 don't get to talk about our successes so much, 

18 but they actually have been some specifically 

19 related to seed.

20 I think there continues to be more we 

21 can do in that area. We did put training in the 

22 Organic Integrity of Learning Center on this as a 
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1 sort of signal. And I think certifiers are 

2 starting to notice that we've put training in the 

3 learning center, and then, you know, we take --

4 certain things follow after that, and you know, 

5 we put training there. It's something that we 

6 care about. If we invest in training, we care 

7 about it. And that leads to a natural cadence of 

8 activity that's next.

9 So this is one I am very aware of how 

10 high a priority this was for the community. We 

11 just haven't quite gotten there yet, but I feel 

12 like we're getting there. Okay.

13 MR. TURNER: Thanks very much.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison and then 

15 Amy.

16 MS. JOHNSON: Thank you. Brian, I 

17 really appreciated your comments. And what came 

18 to mind for me is the massive loss of 

19 biodiversity that we've felt over the last 

20 century or so and the concentration of a lot of 

21 the genetics of our current food system in the 

22 hands of very few global businesses. And so we 
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1 need some sort of strategy to recover from that. 

2 And so I'm going to re-plug my previous comment 

3 on the research agenda around needing more public 

4 investment in the season breeds that we need to 

5 be developing.

6 I don't think we should take it at 

7 face value. This is hard and it takes a long 

8 time, so we don't do it. Or this is hard, and it 

9 takes a long time, so what other resources do we 

10 need to be recommending that we bring to bear to 

11 solve the problem? So it's recommendations from 

12 us, and it's the Farm Bill moving in tandem. But 

13 I don't think the sort of current state of things 

14 should stop us from making recommendations that 

15 go toward the heart of OFPA. And if it's going 

16 to be challenging, then we also need to think 

17 about how we overcome those challenges as a 

18 community.

19 MS. BRUCH: Yeah, I just have another 

20 comment. Nate, thanks for your comment to Jenny, 

21 and Jenny this might also tag on to what Nate 

22 said.
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1 I think this is an important request 

2 from the community, and I appreciate the 

3 attention to it on, you know, just the 

4 requirements of organic seed. I wanted to 

5 understand though when we had our, oh, just a 

6 report from Kiki from the Organic Seed Alliance, 

7 we have hardly any data from international 

8 producers. So when we're recommending these 

9 requirements, which I think are necessary, how 

10 does that impact people from overseas? Because I 

11 don't think that technology is advancing in this 

12 arena as much, and just the accessibility to 

13 organic seed right now, we have very little data 

14 according to Kiki. So we just need to kind of 

15 put the whole big picture in perspective.

16 And I don't know, Jenny, if you can 

17 talk, if regulations are being looked at and how 

18 that will impact the international community.

19 MS. TUCKER: So any rulemaking we do 

20 will impact any operation certified to the USDA 

21 standards around the world, and so they'll have 

22 to follow the exact same rules. I think one of 
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1 the -- to get a better sense of where are the 

2 actual issues right now, every year, Robert --

3 Robert are you here? There's Robert. Robert and 

4 his team identify audit priorities for the year.

5 And so based on community feedback and 

6 based on feedback from this Board, a couple of 

7 audit priorities over the last couple of years 

8 have been natural resources and biodiversity and 

9 the soil provisions. And so those are things 

10 Robert's team looks at when they go out and do 

11 audits. Livestock's another big one that we've 

12 been looking at. I do -- I wonder if at some 

13 point, okay, we have and that has been a really 

14 important audit priority for natural resources 

15 and conservation. I think a lot of that came up 

16 with native ecosystems, and so that was something 

17 we could do.

18 Now, I think the question is next year 

19 do we need to do that again, or? And, you know, 

20 now we've issued the non-compliances, and 

21 certainly, we'll check to see if those 

22 non-compliances were corrected in audits, but 
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1 we've got to make space for another priority. 

2 There are only so many priorities the auditors 

3 can do when they're on the ground looking at all 

4 of these full systems, and they also need to look 

5 at the origin of livestock implementation next 

6 year, and they'll be looking at SOE 

7 implementation. And so we need to be very 

8 choiceful in the audit priorities.

9 I do think how certifiers are 

10 overseeing seed searches, and so the different 

11 variables that have been raised in those 

12 recommendations. That's the conversation and one 

13 of the options that the team has kind of laid 

14 out, is what do we need to learn about how 

15 certifiers are doing this and where are the gaps 

16 that they need to fill. We don't need new 

17 regulations to follow the existing regulations. 

18 Does that answer the question?

19 MS. BRUCH: Yeah, that insight is 

20 helpful.

21 MS. TUCKER: Okay.

22 MS. BRUCH: I think it's just, you 
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1 know, there's a lot more resources in our nation 

2 that are pointed to organic expansion, organic 

3 resources, organic tools, or organic inputs. And 

4 these resources maybe aren't as available 

5 overseas. So even though seed searches are going 

6 to be completed overseas, the accessibility and 

7 the commercial accessibility to those seeds 

8 aren't available, and the data currently isn't 

9 being tracked by the Organic Seed Alliance, that 

10 I am aware of.

11 And I believe I asked that question to 

12 Kiki, and we don't know what's happening 

13 overseas. I think when we look at just -- if 

14 this is going to be considered as a priority or a

15 regulation, look at it on a global scale, as 

16 well. Because as a producer, we want to make 

17 sure that everybody is following the same rules. 

18 And it's different when we have more resources 

19 here. Our rules actually become more stringent, 

20 which I agree with completely. But there's not 

21 an ability to follow those same rules overseas 

22 just because of the lack of accessibility to 
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1 these audits.

2 MS. TUCKER: Yeah. Yeah. Again, I 

3 want to -- I agree with that statement, and I 

4 want to do a shout out for the certifiers who 

5 are, you know, trying to figure out how --

6 anytime you have -- it's a fascinating construct 

7 that we're dealing with on most of these topics 

8 in that you've got a public-private partnership 

9 and so you've got, you know, private sector 

10 certifiers figuring this out, and oh, by the way, 

11 you have operations around the world to certify 

12 due to a USDA standard. I mean, that's a 

13 complex, tough system.

14 And the work that you do on this Board 

15 and these recommendations, impacts and has ripple 

16 effects across all of those certifiers and across 

17 all of those operations. And how do you make it 

18 rigorous and fair? And fair may be different 

19 depending on what topic it is and who you're 

20 talking about. And so, yeah, I think those are 

21 one of the reasons I like to celebrate certifiers 

22 and their work because they're on kind of the 
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1 front line of that every single day, and they are 

2 tough decisions.

3 MS. BRUCH: Thanks, Jenny, and thanks, 

4 Kyla.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other thoughts 

6 or questions? All right, back to you Wood.

7 MR. WOOD: Thanks. Well, I just 

8 wanted --

9 MS. TURNER: Well, I'm going to just 

10 say one thing, if you don't mind.

11 MR. WOOD: Go ahead.

12 MS. TURNER: Honestly, I'm really 

13 excited about the possibilities of working on 

14 this TBD list because it seems like the history 

15 has been a need for expertise. And I think we 

16 have the expertise, and I think we have OFPA, and 

17 I think we have NOSB recommendations on criteria 

18 for evaluating the Excluded Methods. And even if 

19 we can't come up with the most hair-splittingest, 

20 perfect recommendations, I do think we can make 

21 some progress on this list and make some clear 

22 recommendations.
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1 So honestly, I'm not daunted by the 

2 tension, and I'm really glad that you're asking 

3 all the questions about the seed requirements. 

4 And thank you for sharing information with us 

5 about the progress of that. But for me, I think 

6 we can do it, and I'm excited about working on 

7 this TBD list. And so thank you.

8 MR. TURNER: Yeah. Thank you for your 

9 resolve, Mindee, and the great leadership you've 

10 shown on this. And also, I just want to sort of 

11 echo Allison's comments to Brian. Brian, I mean, 

12 you're a huge player in this committee and a huge 

13 player to this work with Mindee, and the wisdom 

14 of your comments really resonated with me, so 

15 thank you. And we'll move on to the next -- oh. 

16 Go ahead, Kyla.

17 MS. SMITH: Sorry. I wanted to say 

18 one last thing. And just sort of, yeah, echoing 

19 everybody's support and acknowledgment, Mindee, 

20 of your leadership.

21 And I just wanted to quote something 

22 out of the ACA Best Practices document on 
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1 material review on this particular topic, so. 

2 Which just underscores that your work, or 

3 collectively, the Board's work on this topic is 

4 not going unnoticed. And so it says certifiers 

5 and MROs should utilize both the Excluded Methods 

6 definitions at 205.2, as well as the list of 

7 Excluded Methods developed by the National 

8 Organics Standards Board to evaluate potential 

9 Excluded Methods technology. Excluded Methods, 

10 as identified by the NOSB, can be incorporated 

11 into affidavits for manufacturers. And so the 

12 work of this Board is being utilized currently.

13 MR. TURNER: Thanks for that, Kyla. I 

14 appreciate you reading that. So a related topic 

15 or a somewhat related topic or a very related 

16 topic is work that Mindee has also led us on in 

17 the committee on the TR Template update. The 

18 Technical Report Template update. Mindee?

19 MS. JEFFERY: Thank you. This is 

20 really -- it's such a great experimenting 

21 collaboration because I think I just wrote the 

22 document, and I don't feel like I really did the 
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1 work, so. First, I'd like to thank the program 

2 folks, especially Jared, for assistance on 

3 getting this project together. Thank you, Jared. 

4 And also, thank you for your patience with me. 

5 And thank you, OMRI so much for your work on TRs 

6 in general, and the very extensive and sensible 

7 suggestions that OMRI made for updating the 

8 template when materials first embarked upon on 

9 this work. So I appreciate you so much.

10 The stated goals of the document were 

11 to harmonize the flow of information requested in 

12 the TR with the petition process and OFPA 

13 criteria, while reducing redundancies and add 

14 relevant questions and sections to the template 

15 for Excluded methods. We didn't get a lot of 

16 public comments back. My apologies to the 

17 community for how we could present the template 

18 with some updated suggestions. And I realized 

19 that was hard for everybody, so thank you for 

20 your patience with evaluating those two appendix.

21 The public comments were totally 

22 supportive of this initiative and expressed 
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1 agreement that it is a worthy project from a 

2 functionality perspective and are supportive of 

3 the effort to capture information about Excluded 

4 Methods risks in the technical reports in a 

5 consistent and formalized manner.

6 The Material Subcommittee understands 

7 that the TR Template is technically a tool for 

8 the Board and can be updated by the Subcommittee 

9 without a proposal. When we return to the 

10 Subcommittee, we plan to incorporate the 

11 stakeholders' suggestions and move forward with a 

12 new template unless the follow-up conversation 

13 from the full Board suggests another route. I'm 

14 excited about these revisions, especially in 

15 light of the consistency issue that may occur 

16 around Excluded Methods.

17 One certifier commented that they are 

18 wondering how confident the organic industry is 

19 in accepting non-GMO statements, and it's unclear 

20 to them if everyone that signs an affidavit is 

21 following the same recommended chart to determine 

22 what is an Excluded Method and what is not. So 
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1 thank you, Kyla, for that. A psychic moment a 

2 few minutes ago.

3 My hope is that we are able to update 

4 materials with new TRs, and this is going to take 

5 some time. So future Board members, I encourage 

6 you to be proactive about updating TRs.

7 The additional questions around 

8 Excluded Methods in the TR process along with 

9 Excluded Methods determinations by this NOSB will 

10 bolster our ability to protect organic from 

11 transgressive technologies.

12 One commenter said that they believe 

13 that the information presented in the TR Template 

14 and the drafted new TR Template presents the same 

15 information, but organized in a way that is 

16 easier to understand and apply. In some cases, 

17 the new template may prove to be less repetitive, 

18 so that was some good feedback.

19 Another group supports the suggested 

20 updates to the Technical Report Template, and 

21 they specifically support questions related to 

22 the use of Excluded Methods in the creation of 
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1 materials, their presence in raw agricultural 

2 materials, and their use and presence in 

3 fermentation processes. In addition to the 

4 questions on Excluded Methods, they suggested 

5 that a question be added as to whether a 

6 substance contained nanoparticles as defined by 

7 the NOSB and the NOP. Furthermore, this 

8 commenter encouraged technical reports to include 

9 language about how a petitioned material would 

10 fit into an organic production system. Not just 

11 whether there are other materials that could be 

12 alternatives. This commenter emphasized that 

13 organic agriculture is not just input 

14 substitution, but rather the integration of 

15 materials into a production method and systems 

16 approach and noting that all materials should 

17 constantly be looked at through a system's lens.

18 A certifier, in their public comment, 

19 said that periodically updating templates is an 

20 important way for certifiers to continually 

21 improve their verification procedures and 

22 supports the updated template. This certifier 
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1 noted that they use TRs to complete review of 

2 materials, and that TRs contain information about 

3 ancillary materials and production methods that 

4 can be a key to understanding whether a material 

5 that an operation wants to use is the same 

6 material that appears on the National List. And 

7 they also made a very specific suggestion for an 

8 edit. So thank you.

9 Another group likes that we're working 

10 to harmonize the flow of information requested in

11 the TR with the petition template and the OFPA 

12 criteria, and they concur with the elements of 

13 the goals, and both the elements of the goals. 

14 And that these revisions will help streamline the 

15 flow of information needed at the various stages 

16 of the material review process. And that clarity 

17 of format and information transmission will help 

18 prevent errors and omissions as various bodies 

19 and stakeholders participate in the steps of the 

20 review process. As far as the questions are 

21 concerned, we did receive some great suggestions 

22 in specificity around Excluded Methods, and I 
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1 look forward to unpacking those in the 

2 Subcommittee. Unless anyone wants to dive into 

3 those suggestions, I can leave it there. I 

4 appreciate the information given by commenters 

5 around the question of TR users because my 

6 experience has been that system changes go well 

7 when consideration is made at the beginning of a 

8 process to include the widest possible view of 

9 when, where, and who is using the system, and so 

10 if anyone was wondering about that question.

11 And to the last question, is the TR 

12 Template functional for all types of materials, 

13 methods, and practices, and if not, does the NOSB 

14 need to develop another Report Template for 

15 methods and practices? And the commenters were 

16 pretty clear on the usefulness of the TR Template 

17 for many considerations. And one commenter 

18 stated that the template with the additions 

19 suggested above, is probably functional as long 

20 as contractors are familiar with all of the other 

21 organic regulations and NOSB actions and the 

22 history of organic production.
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1 And so we got a lot of support and 

2 some great suggestions. And I took particular 

3 note of the suggestions that the TR capture the 

4 potential for nanomaterials. And they also 

5 appreciated the very extensive suggestion for 

6 revisions to the petition template.

7 So with that, I don't think I need to 

8 take a bigger dive into that. But I'm excited to 

9 keep working on this. Anybody?

10 MR. LEWIS: I just have a logistics 

11 question. What's the -- what would we be the, 

12 like if, you know, we'll get an updated TR 

13 Template, and we'll vote on in the fall, and then 

14 it's --

15 MS. JOHNSON: We don't have to.

16 MR. LEWIS: We don't have to, it's 

17 just --

18 MS. JOHNSON: We own this.

19 MR. LEWIS: Yeah. But --

20 MS. JOHNSON: But that's -- go ahead.

21 MR. LEWIS: But is it part of the PPM, 

22 or is just a standalone document?
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1 MS. JOHNSON: It's a template.

2 MR. LEWIS: Yeah, okay.

3 MS. JOHNSON: Yeah. That was my 

4 understanding when we went through the process of 

5 discovery and got support from everywhere. 

6 Nobody objected to our own ability to fix this 

7 template. But I asked the question about -- we 

8 asked the question about who uses it because we 

9 do want to honor its functionality in all ways. 

10 And so that information hopefully, as we go back 

11 and have a dialogue about this, will keep us 

12 clear about making sure we're also considering 

13 all of the other users.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

15 MS. PETREY: Which Subcommittee do you 

16 think that we're going to have Excluded Methods 

17 come up in this process the most? Some of them 

18 were looking at prioritizing TRs, you know so 

19 that we do say in front of it. Because, you 

20 know, if we do a TR, we're saying our standard is 

21 every ten years we're going to update a TR. I 

22 just didn't know if there were certain materials 
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1 or things that were going to come up that we need 

2 to highlight and say, well, if the TR and the 

3 template's already going to be used immediately, 

4 then that's fine. I was wondering about the 

5 logistics of it, and if was going to take some 

6 time to get adopted. But I guess that that's 

7 going to go ahead and be used immediately.

8 MS. JEFFERY: Yeah. I mean, as fast 

9 as we can get together and agree --

10 MS. PETREY: Okay.

11 MS. JEFFERY: -- that this is where 

12 we're headed and this is going to be the new 

13 template, we can start using it.

14 MS. PETREY: Yeah.

15 MS. JEFFERY: But then that's why I 

16 suggested that we and future Board Members should 

17 continue to be really proactive about updating 

18 TRs so that the rapidly advancing biotechnology 

19 can be understood through that process.

20 MS. PETREY: That's right. I realized 

21 that my question had been answered as I was 

22 asking it.
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1 MS. JEFFERY: Yes.

2 MS. PETREY: And that it was going to 

3 be already adopted. And I was like, hmmm. 

4 Maybe, we don't have to worry about that. Okay.

5 MS. JEFFERY: I mean, I love a 

6 question. If I'm unclear, I'm going to ask it 

7 again, so.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Nice 

9 job, Mindee. Thank you.

10 MR. TURNER: Thanks, everybody.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, that's 

12 a wrap. Oh, I saw hand motions. Oh, for the 

13 Board, we're going to be doing a group photo 

14 tomorrow morning, so pick your fanciest shirts 

15 and best smiles. And we're going to get some 

16 good lighting. So tomorrow morning -- well, for 

17 the rest of everyone in the audience, we're about 

18 to wrap up, but for tomorrow morning, let's plan 

19 to be here at 9:30 for the Board, and we're going 

20 to start at 10:00, so then we'll have a little 

21 time to figure out our photo and not rush it.

22 All right. So one more time, the 
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1 happy hour over at Wrecking Bar Brewpub, 219 

2 Moreland Avenue, NE. It actually started at --

3 it starts in three minutes, so everybody rush 

4 over there. But it goes until 7:00, so if you 

5 want to pace yourself, then you can show up 

6 fashionably late.

7 Otherwise, thank you for a great day 

8 two, and we're going to jump back in tomorrow at 

9 10:00 a.m. And so we'll recess for now. Thank 

10 you, everybody.

11 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

12 went off the record at 4:57 p.m.)

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

SPRING 2023 MEETING

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

APRIL 27, 2023

+ + + + +

The Board met at the Crowne Plaza 

Atlanta Midtown 590 West Peachtree Street, NW 

Atlanta, Georgia, at 10:00 a.m., Nathaniel 

Powell Palm, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT

NATE POWELL PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH

AMY BRUCH, Secretary

BRIAN CALDWELL

GERARD D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

NATHANIEL LEWIS

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

FRANKLIN QUARCOO

WOOD TURNER
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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Committee

Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

FRED DAVID, Assistant Director, Standards 

Division

ERIN HEALY, Director, Standards Division

ANDREA HOLM, Agricultural Marketing Specialist

ALEXIS McINERNEY, Program Analyst

JOHANNA MIRENDA, Agricultural Marketing 

Specialist

JENNIFER TUCKER, Ph.D., Deputy Administrator

ROBERT YANG, Director, Accreditation Division

PENNY ZUCK, Agricultural Marketing Specialist
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CONTENTS

 PAGE

Handling Subcommittee 4

Deferred Votes 123

NOSB work agendas/materials update 123

Other business and closing remarks 125

Adjourn 162
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (10:00 a.m.)

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So 

4 we are officially back from recess, finishing 

5 up day three. We're going to start off with 

6 handling today.

7 We're going to shoot for a break 

8 around 11:15 and then we're going to go all the 

9 way through to the end. So lunch after we're 

10 done here today.

11 With that, I'm going to kick right 

12 over to Chair of Handling, Kyla Smith.

13 MEMBER SMITH: Good morning 

14 everybody. Okay. We had a great crew on the 

15 Handling Subcommittee this past semester which 

16 now also includes Nate Lewis, and we were happy 

17 to have him join.

18 We had a packed work agenda this 

19 past semester. We had 19 sunsets and of course 

20 everyone's favorite topic, ion resins. Like I 

21 said, we're super grateful to have an 

22 additional member as we plan our work for next 
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1 year.

2 We have a few petitions that are in 

3 the pipeline. We're waiting on TRs, and we 

4 have 29 sunsets to review. As my table mate, 

5 Amy stated, we're working collaboratively 

6 across scope -- across the scope sub-committee, 

7 so crops, life stock, handling, to streamline 

8 the process such as evaluating the next batch 

9 of sunsets for TR determination earlier in the 

10 year in the hopes that we might get TRs 

11 earlier.

12 I also wanted to reiterate that we 

13 too in handling experience receiving some TRs a 

14 bit late in our process and while the 

15 subcommittee may not have formally deemed them 

16 sufficient, which is the trigger to post them 

17 for the wider community, we did have the draft 

18 to utilize in the write-up and will ensure full 

19 incorporation of the info from the TR prior to 

20 the fall vote.

21 Okay. Now let's get into it. 

22 Kicking off handling with ion resins which I am 
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1 the lead on. Okay. So the topic of ion 

2 exchange was sent to the board in 2019 by the 

3 NOP. The memo asked the board to make a 

4 recommendation on "Whether it is appropriate to 

5 include these substances on the national list." 

6 The Handling Subcommittee decided to split this 

7 topic into the two components of the ion 

8 exchange process, the recharge materials and 

9 the resins. 

10 The recharge materials were voted on 

11 at the fall 2022 meeting and recommended to the 

12 program that the recharge materials do need to 

13 be listed on the national list. Last fall we 

14 also presented three options for how to address 

15 resins and got feedback from stakeholders. 

16 These options and the stakeholder 

17 comments were discussed at the subcommittee and 

18 the outcome of those discussions are presented 

19 in the proposal before the board today which is 

20 to move forward with Option 1, resins do not 

21 need to be listed on the national list. The 

22 reason for that being that resins do not meet 
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1 the definition of ingredient or processing aid 

2 as well as that certifiers and inspectors have 

3 oversight and are evaluating operations that 

4 use ion exchange systems and they do so in 

5 compliance with the organic regulations such as 

6 having protocols in place to prevent potential 

7 contamination.

8 We've heard from stakeholders 

9 through written and oral comments. Most were 

10 in favor of the proposal. Those in favor 

11 included four certifiers, a trade organization, 

12 an international consulting firm, and an 

13 inspector co-op. Those opposed were a couple 

14 of certifiers, a couple of advocacy groups, and 

15 a farmer. I will say that of the certifiers 

16 that commented, a strong majority were in favor 

17 of the proposal.

18 Comments in support of the proposal 

19 to not list resins focused on and agreed with 

20 the subcommittee's rationale related to the 

21 definitions and the board's scope of authority 

22 and felt confident in certifier's ability to 
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1 evaluate through the OSP review and inspection 

2 process, and operation's compliance with the 

3 requirements to prevent potential 

4 contamination.

5 Comments not in support noted that 

6 while resins do not meet the definition of an 

7 ingredient or processing aid, they are 

8 functionally different than other food contact 

9 substances. They are in favor of listing 

10 resins so that we as a board can review them 

11 individually and evaluate compatibility with 

12 OFPA and also for transparency to stakeholders.

13 Commentors opposed to the proposal 

14 also focused on the theoretical potential for 

15 leaching. One commentor also stated that 

16 organic food and water that goes through an ion 

17 exchange system is synthetic and therefore also 

18 needs to be listed on the national list.

19 I'd like to break down -- break each 

20 of these down and provide my thoughts and then 

21 I'll open it up for discussion.

22 Regarding definitions. As a 
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1 certifier, the organic regulations at 7-CFR 

2 part 205 which includes the definition section 

3 is like my bible. It is how certifiers make 

4 decisions, certification decisions, and enforce 

5 the regulations on the daily. If we aren't 

6 going to adhere to them, what's the point?

7 After the meetings that the NOP held 

8 with FDA, the board was encouraged to use our 

9 own definitions in OFPA and the organic 

10 regulations such as ingredient and processing 

11 aid due to the sorted history with FDA on how 

12 they classify resins. This is reflected in the 

13 proposal.

14 By law, OFPA, resins don't really 

15 have a home on the national list. I would like 

16 to acknowledge that there are a few items on 

17 the national list that also might not meet 

18 those definitions, but I think we have an 

19 opportunity here to not continue to set bad 

20 precedent, not to put bad on top of bad. I'm 

21 mostly thinking of equipment sanitizers in this 

22 case, by the way.
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1 Regarding leaching, the FDA process 

2 for inclusion of resins requires submission of 

3 estimation of dietary intake, EDI recording, 

4 essentially a toxicological assessment 

5 evaluated by FDA through their review and 

6 approval process. Restated in their oral 

7 comments that "Migration of chemical elements 

8 originating from exchange resin to food is a 

9 potentiality but not guaranteed and is low 

10 risk."

11 Certifiers and inspectors are 

12 evaluating an operations adherence to their OFP 

13 that describes management practices and 

14 procedures, frequency of monitoring, and 

15 contamination and co-mingling prevention, along 

16 with in general, assessing an operations 

17 adherence to food safety protocols.

18 Regarding transparency, it is true 

19 that without listing resins on the national 

20 list anyone, an educated consumer say, would 

21 not be pointed to the FDA food contact 

22 substances database to be able to see all the 
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1 resins that could potentially be in use. That 

2 said, that is why the instruction to certifiers 

3 is such an important part of this proposal. 

4 Not only will it ensure certifiers will utilize 

5 a consistent review process for these resins, 

6 it references the FDA database and can serve as 

7 the public-facing transparency that some 

8 commenters were concerned about.

9 Regarding chemical change and the 

10 synthetic determination, organic juice that 

11 goes through an ion exchange system is still 

12 juice. There are ions that have been exchanged 

13 to filter out certain elements such as heavy 

14 metals and other things, but it is still 

15 organic juice.

16 Per NOP guidance 5033, Section 4.4, 

17 classification guidance does not determine the 

18 eligibility of a substance for organic 

19 certification. And water, which is probably 

20 the most common ingredient that is filtered 

21 through ion exchange systems is not synthetic. 

22 This isn't perfect, it's not a perfect 
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1 solution, we've heard that theme throughout 

2 this week, but it's the best path forward that 

3 we have that most aligns with our process and 

4 scope of authority and has the least amount of 

5 risk.

6 That's my summary, let's hear your 

7 all thoughts.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

9 Kyla from the board. Well, when you answer all 

10 the questions in your summary, boom.

11 Amy, please go ahead.

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Kyla, table mate, 

13 thank you so much for that thorough review of 

14 this topic. It's really interesting to me, I 

15 have several questions but the first one I'm 

16 going to ask is just international compliance 

17 with the subcommittee's recommendation. We 

18 mentioned that the resins are reviewed by FDA. 

19 I just want to understand a little bit more 

20 internationally how our recommendation will be 

21 executed. 

22 Are resins that are located 
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1 internationally, are these processes that are 

2 completed by manufacturing facilities 

3 internationally, are they following FDA 

4 compliance first and then also our 

5 recommendation? Because I know they have to be 

6 reviewed by accredited certifiers, but could 

7 you speak more to that please?

8 MEMBER SMITH: I don't really know 

9 if -- what exchange systems are available in 

10 the international community. This proposal as 

11 written would require, does require that the 

12 recharge materials be listed on the national 

13 list which we already approved. So 

14 international certifiers would need to follow 

15 that.

16 It also would require that the 

17 resins be listed on the food contact substances 

18 database and that would be an instruction to 

19 certifiers which the program would follow-up 

20 with certifiers to make sure that they're 

21 adhering to that instruction. So without those 

22 two components, I would think that those resins 
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1 would then -- you know, or those systems, if 

2 those two things were not true, would not be 

3 able to be used.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate.

5 MEMBER LEWIS: I'm trying to 

6 assemble my thoughts on the topic. The issue 

7 of definitions really resonates with me Kyla, 

8 and thanks for kind of honing in on that. 

9 Processing aids and ingredients are defined 

10 terms, well ingredients are, processing aids 

11 are, but ingredients, one of the challenges of 

12 the organic standards.

13 But I think the importance of being 

14 true to those, the way we use those and have 

15 historically used those not just relate to the 

16 national list but to how certifiers do 

17 calculations and label determinations every day 

18 on various processed products. And so if we 

19 were to suggest that something that wasn't a 

20 processing aid should live on the national 

21 list, the implications aren't just for the 

22 other things that might go on the national 
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1 list, but there's implications that extend to 

2 how products are calculated, how labels are 

3 assigned and I think we really just need to, 

4 whether it's you know, I understand it can be 

5 frustrating that if we can't use the national 

6 list as a tool to address certain concerns that 

7 folks may have, we do need to kind of respect 

8 the precedent there.

9 So I want to just acknowledge that 

10 that is a frustration, and I can see how that 

11 would make folks want to use the national list 

12 as a tool. But I think it kind of goes back to 

13 the, if you're only tool is a hammer, then 

14 every problem looks like a nail issue. And so 

15 we don't have a home for these types of 

16 materials. That's unfortunate.

17 And so where I tend to go with 

18 things like that is, what do we have in the 

19 standard. And I want to sort of make sure we 

20 don't forget that 205.272 requires every 

21 producer, every handler to have a system plan 

22 that prevents contamination of the products 
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1 that they manufacture. And it's the 

2 certifier's job to verify that those plans are 

3 in place. 

4 So ion exchange resins are overseen 

5 by FDA. There's really, you know there's a 

6 public list of things that are allowed as ion 

7 exchange resins. There's pretty strict and 

8 comprehensive testing requirements to ensure 

9 that there isn't leaching of these resins. We 

10 can argue about whether we trust the FDA's 

11 approach or not, but they are the scientists 

12 there and those things will continue to govern 

13 these materials whether they're on the national 

14 list or not if they're in contact with any 

15 food, organic or non.

16 So I just want to make sure folks 

17 are kind of thinking within that context and 

18 perhaps we kind of extend the conversation to 

19 how do we support certifiers in their 

20 assessments of contamination prevention plans. 

21 We have a really good system for supporting 

22 certifiers in verifying buffer zones on farms 
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1 through residue sampling and I would like to 

2 see the board spend some time looking at how we 

3 can support certifiers of handlers and having 

4 some additional tools for verifying those 

5 prevention -- those contamination prevention 

6 plans in a facility. 

7 And I'd like to see kind of a 

8 testing 2.0 element added to our work agenda, 

9 maybe perhaps within the context of a global 

10 supply chain. But there's a number of 

11 processes going on in a handling facility that 

12 have the potential to contaminate products. 

13 Operations are obligated to prevent that. 

14 Certifiers are obligated to ensure those 

15 prevention plans are adequate, and I think a 

16 testing component could support those 

17 endeavors.

18 So I think for me, you know, I'm 

19 intending on voting in support of option 1 

20 because I don't believe they belong on the 

21 national list. I do recognize the concerns 

22 elevated around contamination and I believe the 
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1 way to address those is through the existing 

2 regulations and some additional guidance around 

3 what tools would be effective in supporting 

4 certifiers verifying handlers are doing their 

5 obligation of preventing that contamination.

6 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Kyla. I 

7 really appreciate the work that Handling 

8 Subcommittee does on this and as I've mentioned 

9 before, it's like a whole new world to me. So 

10 I defer really strongly to your 

11 recommendations, but I do have a couple 

12 questions.

13 One is that it seems to be that the 

14 classification of material is a little bit 

15 ambiguous. There doesn't seem to be universal 

16 agreement as to what it is from what I'm 

17 getting here. So I'm not you know, I'm not 

18 totally convinced by the fact, well it doesn't 

19 have a place on the list because it's defined 

20 thusly. But what I wanted to ask in particular 

21 was, when I read through the ion exchange 

22 process, it seemed to me there are actually 
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1 sort of three classes of materials that are 

2 involved. And one is the resin backbone, and 

3 the second one which is part of the resin 

4 system is the, basically, these ions that are 

5 impregnated into the resin that then serve as 

6 the exchange sites. And then the third 

7 material is the recharge materials. 

8 And so with the proposal the way it 

9 is, those first two groups, both the backbone 

10 materials and whatever cad ions are affixed to 

11 them would not be reviewed at all. And I guess 

12 I'm wondering -- and it sounds like from some 

13 of the stakeholder comments, that there are 

14 actually not very many of these materials. 

15 It's a pretty -- maybe -- I saw the number 15 

16 total for the, both the combinations of 

17 backbones and these ions. So it seems like 

18 it's not a huge lift to sunset them and review 

19 them every five years.

20 And I'm just wondering, what is the 

21 -- since there is concern amongst our 

22 stakeholder community, segments of them -- what 
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1 would be the resistance of just doing that for 

2 those 15 or finite number that I guess -- and 

3 I'm going to maybe anticipate your answer --

4 they would have to go through a position 

5 process, right? And there would have to be 

6 some kind of allowance for continuation of 

7 what's in use through that. But anyways, what 

8 would be the resistance of having those 

9 reviewed in the sunset process, sort of 

10 regardless of their status, you know, as a type 

11 of material?

12 MEMBER SMITH: I think there's more 

13 than 15. I saw that number to, but I think I 

14 also saw like 30. So I think mostly the 

15 resistance from me anyway is because it sets 

16 bad precedent and then the potential gets 

17 opened up for other things to be petitioned 

18 that don't have a home on the national list 

19 because they don't meet our definitions.

20 And so it's putting bad on top of 

21 bad and it just is bad precedent.

22 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you so much 
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1 for all of your work on this, Kyla. Your 

2 presentation was really clear.

3 And I also appreciated your 

4 question, Brian because it's the one that I've 

5 been sitting with. I think Kyla's answer is 

6 spot on and is what leads me to continue to 

7 support the proposal.

8 I think at the end of the day these 

9 resins are more like equipment than a 

10 processing aid or something else that ends up 

11 in the product. And if we start to go down 

12 that road, what else are we going to start to 

13 feel the need to scrutinize. It becomes, I 

14 think, an overwhelming and impractical 

15 direction to go very quickly.

16 Saying that, I still recognize that 

17 you know, we have concerns about plastic, we 

18 have concerns about PFAS, all of these 

19 materials and this like, track record of, oh 

20 this is fine and safe. Oh, oops, it wasn't and 

21 now we have some sort of chemical contamination 

22 problem. So I'm sitting with that.
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1 But under the regulatory framework 

2 that we have, I think the proposal that we've 

3 put forward is the most, kind of, reasonable 

4 and practical way to deal with this issue at 

5 this time.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate.

7 MEMBER LEWIS: Brian, I really liked 

8 your question. I think it's a good one to 

9 consider which is you know, why not. You know, 

10 sort of precedent and definitions aside, it is 

11 a tool for evaluating materials so why not add 

12 it.

13 And I think my response is that I 

14 don't think the national list is structured in 

15 a way that allows the board to address the 

16 concerns that these materials raise to the 

17 community. These -- from what I heard from 

18 public comment the concerns are primarily 

19 around degradation of the product and its 

20 unintentional entrance into the food chain, or 

21 the food -- you know, the product. And whether 

22 or not it's listed on the national list doesn't 
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1 give us any tools to restrict that because it 

2 is all about proper operation and maintenance 

3 of the product that prevents that.

4 So that's again why I go back to 272 

5 as the place in the rule to address the concern 

6 that I heard from the community. And simply by 

7 putting something on the national list, you 

8 don't necessarily have that added definition to 

9 enforcement. So that would be my reaction to 

10 that question.

11 MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. I was going to 

12 also add too, that like it's not that these 

13 substances or the resins themselves are not 

14 being reviewed. They are being reviewed by 

15 certifiers in the context of their OFP and 

16 through inspection and ensuring operators are 

17 adhering to the regulations. So it's not that 

18 they're not being reviewed, they're just not 

19 being reviewed in the context of the national 

20 list.

21 MEMBER CALDWELL: Just a quick 

22 thought I had during the conversation. I was 
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1 trying to think of well, so I mean one of the 

2 issues is that these materials are in intimate 

3 contact with the product. And I was thinking, 

4 well what would be another example of that. 

5 And of course I'm coming from the crop world. 

6 And I'm thinking about salad mix harvesters and 

7 snap bean harvesters.

8 And when they go through a field, 

9 they cut everything down and it goes through 

10 all kinds of belts and you know, air movement 

11 and everything like that, pretty intimate 

12 contact. So I can see that there is potential 

13 for other kinds of things that we might not 

14 want to be evaluating on the national list that 

15 I hadn't thought of at all before. So anyways, 

16 I just wanted to share that idea.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy and then 

18 Dilip.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. This has been 

20 really great conversation. I'm a big proponent 

21 of basic conditions and definitions as well. I 

22 think the clarity for me happened in the term 
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1 "leakage" and really understanding what that 

2 term meant in this context. 

3 But I did have a question. You 

4 mentioned you know, option 1 points us to where 

5 we need to go because of precedent. I just had 

6 a quick thing to reconcile though because 

7 initially this was done based on, or kind of 

8 this whole work project began because the NOP 

9 issued a memo to all certifiers in May of 2019 

10 saying actually all these materials needed to 

11 be listed on the national list.

12 So I'm just trying to reconcile our 

13 you know, our vote here today in precedence 

14 with what the NOP initially had communicated to 

15 the program or sorry, to the community.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just because we 

17 have the program right here, I feel like we 

18 should kick it to them for one second. 

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Perfect. 

20 That's fine too, because initially the 

21 framework was different than potentially what 

22 option 1 is telling us to do now, so.
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1 DR. TUCKER: Thank you for letting 

2 me speak up. You know, when the community, 

3 when the industry encounters new problems you 

4 know, sometimes we have to you know, establish 

5 new solutions and new processes to make sure 

6 we're being really thoughtful about the broader 

7 industry that will be impacted by any of our 

8 decisions.

9 And material conflicts is a big one. 

10 And so broadly, when there is a material 

11 conflict and somebody says you know, well this 

12 should be allowed, or this shouldn't be allowed 

13 or should be on the list and certifiers 

14 disagree it does come to us through a process.

15 And sometimes we say, okay, 

16 "Certifier A" yeah, you made a mistake. You've 

17 got to change your mind because you made a 

18 mistake. And sometimes it becomes a bit of an 

19 irreconcilable difference. I think at some 

20 point we thought we could answer these 

21 questions. So this came in, and a team looked 

22 at it and said, okay we think that yeah. We 
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1 think they should be on the national list. And 

2 we issued that. That's what you're referring 

3 to. And man, did we get the letters flying.

4 That happened three times. There 

5 were three times where there was a material 

6 conflict, we made a decision in the program, we 

7 put it out there, and immediately we got a , oh 

8 my God, you can't do that. This is more 

9 complicated than you think it is.

10 So we responded with a new process, 

11 which actually has led to today. You are the 

12 new process. And so I think that initial 

13 charge that we gave was based on our best 

14 assessment at the time. Whatever you determine 

15 as a board is what where we're going to end up 

16 because we probably weren't -- we have changed 

17 the process so that we have a greater sense of 

18 humility in putting out decisions related to 

19 materials.

20 And we got some pretty clear letters 

21 in saying, arguing the opposite side. So no 

22 one's view is complete, right? 
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1 MEMBER BRUCH: Sure. No, that's 

2 helpful. I was just trying to reconcile 

3 because the initial decision from the program 

4 said that these substances, all substances 

5 essentially, needed to be on the list including 

6 the materials we're talking about today. So I 

7 was just trying to understand that initial 

8 thought process.

9 I'm clear about the current process, 

10 but I'm just trying to reconcile them.

11 DR. TUCKER: Kyla's hand's up, so.

12 MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you.

13 MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. I'm just like 

14 looking at the notice to certifiers here that 

15 Amy's referring to. And my read on it is that 

16 they were equating the entire filtration 

17 process to things that were already on -- other 

18 filter needs that were on the national list and 

19 looking at the whole system. And I think that 

20 the community reacted because it's not that 

21 simple and they were able to provide more 

22 justification to say, you have to look at the 
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1 component parts and put the recharge materials 

2 on and --

3 Anyway, I think the original 

4 assessment was based on the whole and then now 

5 we're breaking it apart.

6 DR. TUCKER: And can I just say, I 

7 really appreciate how much this board has 

8 engaged in this complexity. And honestly, it's 

9 a little -- there's so many complicated 

10 problems. And I feel, frankly, a little 

11 relieved that this has been as hard as it is 

12 because honestly, when we had to pull that back 

13 up and then I thought, oh my God, I'm a new 

14 deputy administrator and here I am pulling back 

15 memos already. 

16 And to have actually, the validation 

17 that this isn't as simple as we probably 

18 thought it was and it was right to set up a new 

19 complicated process. That takes time. So 

20 actually I've been really pleased with how --

21 although it's long and complicated -- how this 

22 has worked. So thank you, again.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip.

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Kyla, you may have 

3 answered, probably I missed it. Just to 

4 clarify, is there any list of resins so far 

5 available? I don't know, you mentioned it. Is 

6 it like 15 or 30? So do we have a list of 

7 resins being used? And any review on those 

8 particular resins included in the TR or any 

9 elsewhere the information is available, their 

10 effects on, whether on plants, and all that? 

11 Thank you.

12 MEMBER SMITH: So the list of resins 

13 can be found in, and what's recommended in the 

14 proposal, is that they be listed either on the 

15 inventory of effective food contact substances 

16 notification database, or the inventory of food 

17 contact substances listed at 21-CFR. So those 

18 are the reference points.

19 The TR didn't look at the resins 

20 individually, but looked at them more you know, 

21 as a class.

22 MEMBER NANDWANI: Okay. Thank you.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin.

2 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yes. I have a 

3 similar question, maybe a follow-up to what 

4 Dilip said. What are the tools available to 

5 certifiers and inspectors to carry out proper 

6 oversight. For example, how many times should 

7 you use this column, what flow rate, 

8 temperature. What are the factors that lead to 

9 more leaching, for example? Is there a certain 

10 number of times when, after if you use this 

11 product, best practice is that you change the 

12 column materials and column sample?

13 So what are the tools available to 

14 an inspector to do the oversight? Basically 

15 everything is being moved to that side instead 

16 of the regulation side. So what are the tools 

17 available to the person actually interfacing 

18 with the firm and making a decision so they can 

19 tell these things are being followed? So 

20 that's my main question. Because we're talking 

21 about leaching.

22 Also, what amount? Is it 1ppm of 
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1 leached material? All those values, you know, 

2 I would like to see more information on what 

3 are the effects of people exposed to that. Is 

4 there a lot of work on that?

5 MEMBER SMITH: I would just say that 

6 you know, the context of the OSP, an operator 

7 you know, would be describing how, you know, 

8 their GMPs, their good manufacturing processes, 

9 and following and adhering to those.

10 And the FDA is ultimately the 

11 regulatory authority like, over these, right? 

12 It's a food safety issue. And so if an 

13 operator is using these systems, they're going 

14 to need to be -- that's the authority, right? 

15 And it would be similar to like any other type 

16 of equipment, like tubing or, I don't know, any 

17 other type of food contact substances that are 

18 overseen by the FDA.

19 But in an operator's organic system 

20 plan it would cover information like that to 

21 indicate when they would be needing to change 

22 out the columns. PCO doesn't certify any 
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1 operations that use ion exchange so I can't 

2 speak specifically from experience on exact 

3 type of information that are held within OSPs, 

4 but I would imagine they're following you know, 

5 user manuals and the like.

6 MEMBER QUARCOO: So you think that 

7 certifiers currently have that information and 

8 tools to adequately --

9 MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. I mean, and I 

10 do -- 

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Can I jump in as 

12 an inspector real quick?

13 MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. I was just 

14 going to say like, I do know that within 

15 inspection reports, like the -- it's common for 

16 inspectors to be evaluating that operations has 

17 passed like their food safety protocols and 

18 that they're you know, getting sort of passing 

19 grades in regards to food safety. So I don't 

20 know if you want to add anything.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah. A couple 

22 things. I'll try to keep this all linear. One 
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1 comment that was made a few times was this idea 

2 that these materials aren't being reviewed. 

3 And I think it sort of shows a greater 

4 misunderstanding of how we operate as an 

5 industry. And that misunderstanding is the 

6 role that the certifier plays.

7 And the certifier spends so much 

8 human capital, money, resources, researching, 

9 and managing this standard that Nate keeps 

10 citing of, we have to prevent contamination and 

11 comingling. And because there's a really broad 

12 world of food contact substances, and I think 

13 of you know, the tote bag that holds my own 

14 wheat. Not something that's going to be 

15 listed, but something that the point, and the 

16 coolest thing about this industry is a human 

17 goes and looks, is that tote bag falling apart 

18 into the wheat, and is that an example of it's 

19 time to be changed out.

20 And so when we think about going 

21 through -- bingo -- when we think about going 

22 through the ability for the certifier and 
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1 certification industry to manage all of these 

2 complex issues, a big component is trusting the 

3 certifier as evidenced by the fact that for 30 

4 years they have built this infrastructure in 

5 partnership with inspectors and their own 

6 material review teams to make sure that they 

7 have evidence that we don't have contamination.

8 So as an inspector, when we go on 

9 site we're going to be looking for a few 

10 things. And this brought me back to that word, 

11 "leaching." Leaching, as we heard, refers to 

12 when the resin is no longer effective. So if 

13 we're trying to pull arsenic out of a material, 

14 it shows that the arsenic isn't getting pulled 

15 out. That's the leaching. It's not that we're 

16 testing for or seeing evidence that the actual 

17 resin is breaking down.

18 And so as an inspector, we would be 

19 looking at those certificates of analysis, and 

20 they wouldn't be selling that because they 

21 wouldn't be passing those certificates of 

22 analysis. And so when thinking about how does 
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1 the on the ground work get done, it really is 

2 quite simple that we're looking for all of 

3 these different food tests to come back clean 

4 showing that the ion exchange is working.

5 And that then we can say, as an 

6 inspector, could you show me the manufacturer's 

7 protocol for this material in as much as how 

8 long does the manufacturer recommend that it be 

9 used before being changed out. And then ask

10 the producer, how old is this? How long has it 

11 been here? And we can then raise a red flag 

12 saying, this material seems a little dated as 

13 evidenced by two things. One, it's beyond the 

14 life of what the manufacturer recommended, but 

15 two, it's not doing its job anymore.

16 And so that human factor is what 

17 makes this industry so darn cool. There's 

18 someone actually checking to make sure the 

19 story that's being told stacks up.

20 MEMBER QUARCOO: I have a response 

21 to that if you don't mind. So what was just 

22 defined as leaching is what I thought was 
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1 defined as "leaking" in the report. That it's 

2 no longer able to pull out what -- so the 

3 leaching, according what I read was when the 

4 resins starts getting into the -- unless I read 

5 it wrong. So that's one clarification that I 

6 need on that.

7 The other aspect of it is, are we 

8 saying that -- okay. I was thinking the whole 

9 onus was going to be on the certifier, the 

10 inspector. But hearing what you just said it 

11 appears as if it's just now, okay, let's go 

12 with the FDA. And I have no problem going 

13 according to what the FDA says. So is that the 

14 oversight? This is FDA approved and that's --

15 I just want to understand that it's not the 

16 certifier or the inspector that has to at least 

17 make sure that these FDA guidelines are being 

18 followed, best practices. So I still think the 

19 inspector or certifier has a key role to play 

20 in option 1. 

21 That is the strong point of option 

22 1, is that the things that option 2 and 3 were 
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1 worried about were going to be looked at by the 

2 inspector who interfaces with the producer and 

3 makes sure guidelines are followed. Unless I'm 

4 getting it wrong.

5 MEMBER SMITH: So yeah. You're 

6 correct in your terms. Leakage I think, is the 

7 term that you were talking about, not leaching. 

8 Leaching I do think is like the potential 

9 theoretical potential for the resin to you 

10 know, leach plastic, like other types of 

11 plastic that we talk about. Leakage is what 

12 Nate was describing, so you are correct.

13 I think it's both in regards to the 

14 oversight, right? So obviously the FDA has 

15 oversight of food contact substances. It's a 

16 food safety issue, right? The organic 

17 certifier and inspector, as Nate described, is 

18 looking at an operation's compliance with FDA 

19 as well as further compliance to ensure 

20 contamination prevention. So Nate's correct in 

21 that like, those are the extra questions that 

22 would get asked on an inspection. You know, 
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1 are you following the user manual? The user 

2 manual says whatever, you're not following 

3 that. Like, what's going on here? So that is 

4 the further questioning that would happen. So 

5 it's both.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison.

7 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. Thanks 

8 for those questions, Franklin. I find some 

9 theme stands out from every meeting and this 

10 one is, we need to be really careful with our 

11 words. And this a particularly acute example. 

12 So thank you, Kyla for the parsing of "leakage" 

13 versus "leaching." 

14 The questions that we included to 

15 stakeholders were there in part because I did 

16 feel concerned about a leaching risk. So some 

17 risk of material exposure from these resins 

18 that are not associated with the proper 

19 functioning of an ion exchange contraption, 

20 operation.

21 And I feel convinced from public 

22 comments that there isn't anything we can do --
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1 I'm worried about unknowns, and it's really 

2 hard to check for unknowns. We could test for 

3 something, but we wouldn't even know what we 

4 would be looking for. So I did feel comforted 

5 by Gwendolyn's comment -- I don't know if she's 

6 still here -- but her kind of very detailed 

7 explanation about the proper working of columns 

8 and that if there were some you know, tangible 

9 problem with column you would start to see 

10 those impacts in leakage. So the improper 

11 functioning of the equipment before you would 

12 start to see like a worse breakdown. So that 

13 gives me some comfort.

14 It doesn't address the unknown 

15 unknowns piece, but I think because these 

16 really do function like as equipment, and 

17 that's a concern for a much wider range of 

18 materials that are part of our food processing 

19 system. I'm comfortable being uncomfortable 

20 with that at this point.

21 But I would hope if someone did find 

22 evidence that you know, a particular resin is a 
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1 problem or we're learning more, that people 

2 would bring us that information and we could 

3 address it.

4 MEMBER SMITH: And I would just say 

5 too that I think OMRI also spoke to that as 

6 well, which I did quote in my opening here. 

7 That this you know, the potential like leaching 

8 is like a potentiality and not a guaranteed and 

9 it's very low risk based on those EDI numbers.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee, go 

11 ahead.

12 VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you. 

13 When I was little, my parents only bought salt 

14 and sugar because we lived close enough to both 

15 my grandparent's farms that they mostly could 

16 grow and can everything themselves. And that's 

17 what I want for organic. I want the local, 

18 whole food nutrition for everybody that's 

19 certified organic because it's good for 

20 politics, but that we'd all get to stay home in 

21 our whole food food system, but we don't live 

22 there.
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1 And so for me, when I face the 

2 customer who wants raw, organic coconut water 

3 shipped over from Thailand, I have to think 

4 about the compromise of the best path in the 

5 given reality. And so for me, looking at all 

6 of the steps that have been taken to understand 

7 option 1 at this level of depth, it's the best 

8 process path with the most consistent ability 

9 to trace what we're doing and live in an 

10 organic system that grapples with industrial 

11 reality in the most transparent way it can.

12 And so, thank you so much for 

13 everyone who provided so many details in the 

14 weeds on this one. I'm really comfortable with 

15 option 1 from that process path perspective.

16 MEMBER LEWIS: Just really quick, 

17 that sugar probably went through an ion 

18 exchange column.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

20 for Kyla or comments? Feeling good, everybody? 

21 All right.

22 MEMBER SMITH: Let me -- so the 
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1 motion to approve the recommendation that ion 

2 exchange resins used in the ion exchange 

3 filtration process are not required to be on 

4 the national list, and that NOP provide 

5 instructions to certifiers as outlined in the 

6 recommendation was motioned by me and seconded 

7 by Wood in subcommittee and comes to the board 

8 motioned and seconded.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Motioned and 

10 seconded. All right.

11 Now that we're all here, and I'm 

12 grateful that we're all feeling better, we can 

13 all be taking this vote in person. We're going 

14 to start again with Allison in the flesh and 

15 we're going to work our way around.

16 So Allison, please go ahead.

17 MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian.

19 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate.

21 MEMBER LEWIS: Yes.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip.
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1 MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry.

3 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla.

5 MEMBER SMITH: Yep.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy.

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee.

9 VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim.

11 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin.

13 MEMBER QUARCOO: I abstain.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood.

15 MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan.

17 MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn.

19 MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier, absent.

21 And the chair votes yes.

22 MEMBER BRUCH: All right. The 
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1 motion passes. We had 12 yes, 1 no, 1 abstain, 

2 1 absent, zero recusals.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

4 Thank you, folks. And thank you, Kyla.

5 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. Great work, 

6 Kyla.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That was a lift.

8 All right. We're going to proceed 

9 with the rest of handling.

10 MEMBER SMITH: I forgot.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I know. I feel 

12 like we all just need to take a walk.

13 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. So moving into 

14 the 2025 handling sunsets, we will start with 

15 calcium carbonate which is listed at 

16 205.605(a)(6)(m) non-synthetic allowed. And 

17 this is Kim's material.

18 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Kyla. 

19 Okay. So calcium carbonate as Kyla mentioned 

20 where it's listed. It has a wide array of 

21 uses. It's used as a dietary supplement, an 

22 antacid, dough conditioner, acidity regulator 
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1 in wines, food stabilizer, anti-caking agent, 

2 gelling agent, the list tends to go on and on 

3 this particular material.

4 From the discussion standpoint, when 

5 it was reviewed in the fall of 2018 there was a 

6 significant amount of approval for relisting 

7 this material noting it's essentiality to 

8 organic production with the absence of a lot of 

9 -- of a viable option.

10 Through public comment, I would say 

11 that that same sentiment resonates. There 

12 were, I'd say about a dozen different 

13 commenters, all of which did support re14 listing. Noting more specific usages such as 

15 adjustment to pH, being utilized in the 

16 manufacturing of oat milk, soy-based cheeses, 

17 and also as a stabilizer, anti-caking, and then 

18 use in another arena for cleaning mixing 

19 equipment.

20 There was one commentor that asked 

21 for more specification for its use, to list out 

22 all of these different options of how it's 
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1 being used and not let it be as wide open as it 

2 seems to be. It does seem that calcium 

3 carbonate though, has not -- it just has a 

4 significant amount of uses. And as a non5 synthetic is relatively benign.

6 So that being said, I'll open it 

7 back up for any questions.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

9 Kim? All right. Back to you, Kyla.

10 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Moving on, 

11 next up is flavors. Flavors. Flavors are 

12 listed at 205.605(a)(12). Non-synthetic 

13 flavors may be used when organic flavors are 

14 not commercially available. All flavors must 

15 be derived from organic or non-synthetic 

16 sources only and must be produced using 

17 synthetic solvents and carrier systems or any 

18 artificial preservative. And this material is 

19 Logans.

20 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you, Kyla. 

21 Yes, flavor is very extensive. It's 

22 pretty broad. A lot of materials in that. In 
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1 2014, OTA submitted a petition for -- that is 

2 looking more to really get organic flavors, 

3 organically made into the industry. And so 

4 they added the annotation that, similar to the 

5 seed that we have for organic flavors that are 

6 commercially available, for those to be used.

7 That was passed in 2018 and the rule 

8 making was in 2019. They also mentioned in 

9 their comments that they were looking for --

10 they're going to be putting a survey out 

11 hopefully this summer, before the fall meeting 

12 so that we'll have it to see what the progress 

13 has been in the industry and how many more 

14 organic flavors have come on board and how that 

15 whole process is working.

16 And so the use of natural flavors, 

17 is typically used in very small amounts in 

18 products. Natural flavors are widely used in 

19 baking goods, dairy products, jams, jellies, 

20 snack foods, juice products, and many other 

21 foods. The significant function of natural 

22 flavors must be flavor rather than nutrition.
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1 The manufacturing of these is very 

2 extensive because there's a lot of different 

3 products. So you're looking at cold-pressing, 

4 steam, distillation, solvent extractions 

5 because you've got distillates, extracts, 

6 essential oils, so a lot of different materials 

7 there.

8 At the international acceptance, it 

9 is internationally used. These are very 

10 important materials for a lot of products. The 

11 annotation change was finalized in 2019. 

12 Again, we'll see what that looks like. I'm 

13 kind of excited to see how the use for organics 

14 has increased.

15 And we asked three questions to our 

16 commentors or stakeholders. We had 14 

17 commentors on this material. All were in 

18 support of it. All said that if we were to 

19 take the synthetic away, that it would 

20 completely disrupt the supply chain of these 

21 products, so. 

22 And then number three I thought was 
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1 interesting, are there flavors currently used 

2 in organic products that cannot be produced 

3 organically, including any of these examples. 

4 Like something from beavers, musk oil, musk 

5 deer. These are crazy foods, okay. But 

6 anyway, they -- liquid smoke. I've used that 

7 one. 

8 Anyway, so a lot of these products 

9 are not going to be able to be listed as 

10 organic because they're not covered underneath 

11 you know, the NOP regulations or non12 agricultural. So we are always going to have 

13 that. And so that kind of opens up to if we 

14 ever get into, or we have commercially 

15 availability for organic, we can you know, 

16 break that up and then put certain types, and 

17 get more specific on flavors.

18 You know, certain things that will 

19 be listed as a synthetic list. So maybe with 

20 time, this can progress. But right now we need 

21 to -- it's stated that it needs to be re-listed 

22 as is. Otherwise there's a lot of disruption 
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1 in the marketplace.

2 But are there any comments or any 

3 questions?

4 Yes Jerry? I'm sorry - Nate.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All good.

6 MEMBER PETREY: I don't want your 

7 job, I promise.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, please go 

9 ahead.

10 MEMBER PETREY: For the record.

11 MEMBER D'AMORE: In reading through 

12 that material and listing to what you just 

13 said, it brings me to one other thing that I 

14 ran into on an earlier sunset which was colors. 

15 And even when you have adequate supply, a 

16 seemingly adequate supply of natural 

17 ingredients, and I'll take blueberries because 

18 I know them best. 

19 The issue of batching and mixing 

20 becomes complicated just because you have 

21 blueberries here and blueberries there. And 

22 say, oh good, I've got 100 pounds of 
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1 blueberries. Well this 50 pounds and that 50 

2 pounds don't play well together in terms of 

3 varieties and other characteristics. It's a 

4 tough nut as far as what I'm concerned with 

5 what you're doing.

6 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you. Also it 

7 seems like the progress that we make and the 

8 growth that we get in organics seems to outpace 

9 the availability of these organic products. So 

10 we may always see that. But as long as there 

11 is -- you know, one thing that we always want 

12 to have for organic flavors is that we want 

13 that marketplace to be important and we want it 

14 to grow just like the seeds. 

15 And you know, so I think it is 

16 important to have that annotation to push 

17 people in that direction, but we don't want to 

18 slow the organic industry down, you know, and 

19 captivate it. So that's a great point.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla.

21 MEMBER SMITH: Yes. Thanks for 

22 taking on this big topic, Logan. I always am 
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1 impressed that you raise your -- you're like, I 

2 want the hard stuff. And so thanks for always 

3 being willing. I know you just want to learn. 

4 It's great.

5 So I was encouraged by the comments 

6 that were like, we're on the right path, we're 

7 moving in the right direction, and you know, 

8 admittedly wanting that path to move a little

9 quicker, right? And so, I don't know that we 

10 necessarily have a lot of control about that, 

11 but I also was encouraged by Gwendolyn's 

12 comments that we can continue to like peel back 

13 the onion and try to get at more information, 

14 whether that be through the you know, re15 engaging with the flavor's task force or to try 

16 to get more narrow in the scope.

17 And I just did also want to remind 

18 us here that we are talking about a non19 synthetic on the national list. These are 

20 natural flavors and they're not synthetic.

21 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you, Kyla. 

22 You are right. I didn't mention the synthetic 
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1 part, so I apologize for that but yeah. Thank 

2 you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

4 or comments for Logan? All right.

5 Thank you, Logan.

6 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Moving in to 

7 gums. I'm going to read all the gums in and 

8 then we're going to talk about them as a class. 

9 Is that okay, Andrea can you advance 

10 the slides? Okay. Perfect.

11 Okay. So we are at 205.605(a),till 

12 at non-synthetics, 13. Gellan gum (high-acyl

13 form only). We're also going to talk about 

14 205.605, now we're moving into synthetics, 

15 (b)(37), Xanthan gum. And now moving into 606, 

16 205.606(j) gums, water extracted only (Arabic, 

17 Gar, Locust bean, and Carob bean). 205.606(r) 

18 tamarind seed gum. And 205.606(s) tragacanth 

19 gum. And this is Carolyn, the gum queen.

20 MEMBER DIMITRI: I was going to 

21 bring gum for everyone, but I thought, couldn't 

22 find the organic kind.
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1 Thank you for saving me from having 

2 to, aside from flavors, thank you for reading 

3 those seven gums into the record.

4 So overall, gums are used to 

5 thicken, gel, stabilize products. And as Kyla 

6 pointed out, some are synthetic, and some are 

7 non-synthetic. And they aren't one for one 

8 substitutes. So each gum has a slightly 

9 different property. And in general, I think 

10 there is this concern -- you know, there's a 

11 growth in micro-biome research which I still 

12 think is in the very early stages. 

13 And there is a body of research that 

14 is looking at these types of food additives, 

15 they're impact on the micro-biome. And I think 

16 all I can say from having looked at it is it's 

17 just in the very early stages and people can't 

18 say anything definitive.

19 So I'll start with xanthan gum. So 

20 I will talk about them sort of separately and 

21 together. So xanthan gum is the most widely 

22 used gum and it's a really important component 
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1 for gluten free products. And so some of the 

2 reviewers wondered why xanthan was -- I forget 

3 -- xanthan is synthetic, and gellan is non4 synthetic so there was this argument that they 

5 are produced by the same type of fermentation 

6 process, and a few commenters asked for making 

7 that more consistent.

8 Let's see, what else do I have to 

9 say here? I know I have a lot of notes on 

10 xanthan gum here. Okay. Generally there was 

11 mostly support for relisting this project but a 

12 few commentors questioned whether gums are 

13 actually essential for handling. And one 

14 commentor suggested de-listing it. And another 

15 commentor said they currently don't use the 

16 product, but they want to be able to use it in 

17 the future in case a new product innovation 

18 makes it necessary. 

19 Okay. So gellan gum is, there's 

20 like low to moderate use of this. Again, the 

21 question is whether this should be synthetic. 

22 This one there was concern about whether GM use 
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1 was part of the manufacturing process. And 

2 there are currently no organic versions.

3 Tamarind seed is not used at all, 

4 but it was just recently added to the list. 

5 And the reason for adding it to the list was 

6 that if it could be -- if the supply of it in 

7 an organic version became available, maybe it 

8 would replace the use of some of the other 

9 gums. And so, still one commentor said not to 

10 relist it because it's not essential. But I 

11 guess I would argue, it hasn't been around long 

12 enough for people to really incorporate it into 

13 their processes.

14 And then for the Arabic, guar, 

15 locust bean, and carob bean gums. They're not 

16 really widely used. The Arabic gum is an 

17 ingredient in natural flavors. So there was 

18 really no opposition to relisting but some 

19 commentors suggested that we separate the gums 

20 into different categories. And then there were 

21 like mixed comments about organic availability. 

22 Some people said yes, it's available. Some 
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1 people said it's not.

2 And then for Tragacanth gum, that is 

3 not widely used and someone -- one of the 

4 commentors argued that we could add an 

5 adaptation for the specific use of it.

6 That is all of the facts that I 

7 learned about gums from the comments. So I'm 

8 open to any questions and I hope Kyla will help 

9 me answer them.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate, please go 

11 ahead.

12 MEMBER LEWIS: I think the gums are 

13 a good sort of exercise in looking at 

14 essentiality. Because it's pretty clear that 

15 gums of various natures are necessary to 

16 prevent say, chalky mouth feel in different 

17 products. But then the question is, is it 

18 essential that there's the ability to prevent 

19 chalky mouth feel in organic products?

20 So it's a nuanced element of that 

21 same kind of question, but I think it's just an 

22 interesting way to do the exercise about 
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1 essentiality within the things that are in the 

2 national list.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

4 questions or comments for Carolyn?

5 Amy, please go ahead.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, Carolyn. Thank 

7 you for that review of gums. I just had a 

8 question. There was one in particular towards 

9 the end, you said some of our stakeholders say 

10 this gum is commercially available organically 

11 and some do not. Can we get any deeper insight 

12 into that? Is it a regional thing? Is it just 

13 a quantity thing? Or why would there be 

14 disparity in that response?

15 MEMBER DIMITRI: That's a good 

16 question, Amy. I don't know. I guess I can 

17 look through the comments again and report back 

18 to you. Like, that did not pop out at me at my 

19 review.

20 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Yeah. I think 

21 just to me, it just points to the need for more 

22 transparency in this you know, commercially 
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1 available arena for producers to understand 

2 what's an option.

3 Thank you, Carolyn.

4 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

6 questions or comments?

7 All right. Thank you, Carolyn.

8 MEMBER SMITH: We are moving to 

9 oxygen, 205.605, non-synthetics allowed at 

10 (a)(21), oxygen, oil-free grades, and this is 

11 Wood.

12 MEMBER TURNER: Thanks. Oxygen is 

13 used in modified atmosphere packaging, 

14 processing of olives, and by wineries, 

15 breweries, and manufacturers of carbonated 

16 beverages. It's an odorless, tasteless gas. 

17 Thank you, oxygen.

18 It helps to maintain color and 

19 prevent pallor in food. It can help prevent 

20 spoilage in products that are higher in sugar 

21 and water. Very strong support for this 

22 material obviously, for a variety of reasons, 
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1 but we see it across the board, certifiers, 

2 producers, non-profits, and the like. So there 

3 were no negative comments on oxygen.

4 I will say it again, similar to 

5 comments during crops, and we've heard it 

6 already this morning, is that getting specific, 

7 thinking about specificity of use in these 

8 materials, there is a clear interest from at 

9 least one organization in the community to lean 

10 into that question as we move forward. But 

11 that was the only caveat in otherwise positive 

12 comments.

13 MEMBER SMITH: Thanks, Wood.

14 Moving to potassium chloride.

15 MEMBER TURNER: I assume there are 

16 no questions about oxygen?

17 MEMBER SMITH: Oh, sorry.

18 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm concerned 

19 that there are no --

20 Jerry.

21 MEMBER D'AMORE: Let me just make a 

22 comment to support this exchange here.
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1 In some industries, it's absolutely 

2 indispensable for, as Wood reported, for a 

3 controlled environment processes of being able 

4 to store fruit. And taking again, blueberries 

5 as an example, to be able to move, to harvest 

6 and then hold product for somewhere between 

7 four and six weeks longer than you would 

8 otherwise, takes you from a market perhaps glut 

9 to a market of more value.

10 So in the industries that I'm 

11 involved in, it can be a game changer. 

12 MEMBER TURNER: Yeah, for sure. For 

13 sure.

14 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you.

15 MEMBER TURNER: Yeah. It's just the 

16 ability -- the role it plays in reducing food 

17 waste and food loss and shrinkage. Similarly, 

18 it has a sort of -- I was thinking about it as 

19 Logan was talking about flavors as well. I 

20 mean, there's a lot of opportunities here to 

21 sort of you know, reduce food waste in the food 

22 system so I appreciate that.
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1 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Now we move. 

2 205.605(a)(23), potassium chloride. This is 

3 also Wood.

4 MEMBER TURNER: Yep. And this is 

5 familiar material because we talked about it 

6 during crops. Different use, different 

7 discussion entirely but effectively part of 

8 this pending TR that we have, where we ask for 

9 specific examples of organic alternatives to 

10 potassium chloride.

11 A little different from the feedback 

12 in the crops setting. All the feedback for 

13 handling uses of potassium chloride have been 

14 positive among the community. It's used as a 

15 flavor enhancer, flavoring agent, and does 

16 effect -- does improve taste, texture, and 

17 shelf life of food products. It's mainly used 

18 to provide potassium enrichment in foods and is 

19 a means of reducing salt content in foods.

20 Like I said, certifiers, users of 

21 the material, advocacy organizations all were 

22 strongly in support of this materials. So any 
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1 discussion?

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions or 

3 comments? All right.

4 Thank you, Wood.

5 MEMBER TURNER: Thanks.

6 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. 205.605(b)(3), 

7 Alginates. And this is Dilip.

8 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks Kyla. Good 

9 morning. So Alginates, 205.605 (b) synthetics 

10 allowed. Subcommittee review that uses --

11 alginates are used in food production and 

12 handling as an emulsifier or emulsifying solid, 

13 firming agent, flavor enhancer. 

14 But the use of -- thanks, Michelle -

15 - the use of alginates is not limited to only 

16 foods. Industrial use alginates to improve the 

17 performance of products such as paper coating, 

18 textiles, aerosol air freshener, gels and 

19 ceramics. There are also utilized in a variety 

20 of ways in the medical field. I'll not go into 

21 those details.

22 Manufacture part, alginates are 
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1 synthetic derivatives of brown seaweed, and 

2 they are produced from algae. And they are 

3 usually extracted from the cell walls of brown 

4 algae, the seaweed. Their extraction process, 

5 it renders alginates as synthetic.

6 International acceptance in the 

7 Canadian General Standard Board, it is listed 

8 as permitted in three forms, alginic acid, 

9 potassium alginate, and sodium alginate. In 

10 IFOM, International Federation of Organic 

11 Agriculture Movement norms it is listed as 

12 sodium alginate and as 401 alginate, 402, INS 

13 as approved additives.

14 Environmental issues, seaweed 

15 cultivations is largely considered to be an 

16 eco-friendly form of agriculture due to the 

17 look of added inputs for virility and minimal 

18 changes in physical landscape and potential for 

19 bioremediation of polluted of nutrient rich 

20 waters.

21 We are not aware of any evidence 

22 that the harvesting practices for brown seaweed 
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1 are damaging to local ecosystems. Discussion 

2 part, alginates were added to the national list 

3 in 2022 and have been renewed at each sunset 

4 review. 

5 Subcommittee received comments from 

6 12 stakeholders and public comments from the 

7 previous sunset review demonstrated a continued 

8 need and relisting for this material.

9 One comment was that listing should 

10 be broken down by species. They were concerned 

11 that some rarer species may be overharvested by 

12 others maybe for use. Another stakeholder 

13 commented that alginic acid like seaweed and 

14 fish oil should be reviewed within the product 

15 context of marrying materials. 

16 Additionally, the board was asked to 

17 consider the addition of an annotation related 

18 to harvest restrictions and risk based testing 

19 for toxic materials using a decision tree to 

20 identify harvesting areas where testing would 

21 need to be or formed. The subcommittee 

22 discussions entered on the current forms of 
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1 alginate that are being used in organic 

2 production. 

3 Questions we asked to stakeholders 

4 was, what forms of alginate are currently being 

5 used in organic production. And we got public 

6 comments stating that given the growing 

7 interest in plant based meat alternatives, 

8 sodium alginate would be of particular interest 

9 of relisting. That's all I have for alginates. 

10 Questions?

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

12 Dilip? Franklin, please go ahead.

13 MEMBER QUARCOO: Thanks for that 

14 report. I see some environmental impacts that 

15 were stated for alginates for seaweed farming 

16 including depletion of nutrients in coastal 

17 waters and effects on factor planting and the 

18 rest.

19 Then I see a suggestion that in 

20 order to deal with some of the environmental 

21 impact, to move focus on sustainability wild 

22 harvest techniques. Yet, the seaweed is also 
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1 being used for bioremediation. So if it's 

2 being used for bioremediation and then we are 

3 doing sustainable harvesting of wild seaweed, 

4 how does that impact food safety? Especially 

5 when the things that are being bioremediated 

6 are things that we don't want in our food and 

7 environment anyway. So that's the question 

8 that I have.

9 MEMBER NANDWANI: Okay. That's a 

10 good question. I would say, so the primary 

11 impact on environmental, it say's it's 

12 ecofriendly and environmental friendly. 

13 However, it doesn't state that, what you 

14 described, it comes under secondary 

15 environmental impact of seaweed farming, 

16 depletion of nutrients, and as you just 

17 mentioned that.

18 Given these challenges of managing 

19 this non-native seaweed population, some 

20 researchers claim that it is preferrable to 

21 focus on sustainable wild harvest techniques 

22 with regard to mitigating environmental impact. 
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1 That's per the report.

2 I think we have in the TR. So 

3 that's all I can share at this point. I 

4 believe that answered your question.

5 MEMBER QUARCOO: It answers part of 

6 it. I'm just looking at if we are using it for 

7 bioremediation, when it's taking things out of 

8 the environment that we don't want in the 

9 environment, is that what we want to use and 

10 process? I know that if I hear an answer like 

11 the processing takes that out, then I'll feel 

12 better. But if we are using something for 

13 bioremediation -- if the answer for 

14 environmental impact of seaweed farming is to 

15 use wild, and the wild is -- that's what the 

16 plants do, you pollute the environment is 

17 bioremediating, is that what we want to use to 

18 do this? 

19 If I hear somebody say, okay, the 

20 processing is done in such a way that yes, it 

21 doesn't come back to impact the consumer then 

22 I'll feel better. That's my question.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Definitely point 

2 taken. Anyone want to respond to the question?

3 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. Thanks 

4 Franklin, that was a really interesting point. 

5 And I just assumed, when Dilip was talking that 

6 the bioremediation would be just nutrient 

7 loading and that would be a good thing to take 

8 that out. But if it's other types of pollution 

9 and maybe they're mixed in with extra 

10 nutrients, you make a very good point. Do we 

11 want to necessarily eating that? So thank you.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry.

13 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah, I have a bit 

14 of a history with that in my first year. And 

15 the thing that struck me then and I think now 

16 is that the entire industry is sort of young, 

17 and sort of an opportunistic, and there seems 

18 to be a lot of things that could be done 

19 without a whole lot of work. Like moving the 

20 crop out a little bit and into areas that --

21 where they don't draw our impurities from the 

22 water.
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1 The one that we looked at earlier 

2 was, it does have some significant benefits 

3 against erosion, for instance. So, but I can't 

4 be any more specific to your question either. 

5 Thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

7 or comments? All right.

8 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you. Thank 

9 you for your comments and questions. I have 

10 made notes of these and will definitely look 

11 into that in future when we work on this 

12 material.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And if it's all 

14 right, Dilip, let's all go ahead and take a 

15 break for 15 and then we'll come back with your 

16 second material. So we'll be back in 15 

17 minutes.

18 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

19 matter went off the record at 11:17 a.m. and 

20 resumed at 11:33 a.m.)

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

22 We'll get started.
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1 Please go ahead, Dilip.

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Okay. 

3 MEMBER SMITH: One second. Let me 

4 read the --

5 MEMBER NANDWANI: Please.

6 MEMBER SMITH: Read it. Okay. 

7 205.605(b)(8) calcium hydroxide and again, this 

8 is Dilip.

9 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks Kyla. This 

10 should be straightforward. Calcium hydroxide, 

11 205.605(b) is synthetics allowed, is used in 

12 food processing as a pH buffer, neutralizing 

13 agent, and firming agent processing. Also used 

14 in making calcium acid phosphate.

15 So we do have new TR, I think it 

16 just came a few weeks ago, I checked with 

17 Gerard, that gives a little more information on 

18 manufacturing side, the new techniques for the 

19 manufacture of calcium hydroxide and that 

20 continue to develop.

21 International acceptance in Canadian 

22 Journal Standard Board, it is listed in organic 
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1 production systems as permitted substances. 

2 List as lime. In IFOAM, it is listed as 

3 hydrated lime for the application on arial 

4 plant parts only.

5 A very good discussion part during 

6 the previous sunset review. Public comments 

7 submitted by organic manufacturers, trade 

8 associations, material suppliers, and 

9 certifiers detail calcium hydroxide uses and 

10 necessity in the processing.

11 Majority of public comments, I think 

12 we received 11 comments, and the majority of 

13 comments supported relisting of calcium 

14 hydroxide. One commentor suggested that the 

15 list be clarifying which uses of calcium 

16 hydroxide are permitted, specifically if 

17 calcium hydroxide can be used as a firming 

18 agent. Additional commentors stated that they 

19 use calcium hydroxide in infant formula.

20 One question we asked to 

21 stakeholders, is calcium hydroxide essential 

22 for organic food production. And I think, 
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1 yeah, the second question also was that, since 

2 the material was last reviewed have additional 

3 commercially available alternatives emerged.

4 So we did receive 11 comments all in 

5 favor of relisting of calcium hydroxide but not 

6 much response received on the question we 

7 asked. A couple of commentors said that they 

8 are not aware of any commercially available 

9 alternatives available. So that's all I have 

10 for calcium hydroxide. Thank you. Any 

11 questions?

12 Yes. Nate.

13 MEMBER LEWIS: Again, just from a 

14 data set of one, during the pandemic we had a 

15 lot of time on our hands, so we started -- we 

16 grew some heirloom corn and nixtamalized it 

17 ourselves to make tortillas and compared 

18 calcium hydroxide nixtamalization process with 

19 the more traditional wood ash process.

20 And I can tell you that it is 

21 essential for a good tortilla to use calcium 

22 hydroxide. We didn't have very good luck with 
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1 the wood ash in the mixed nixtamalization.

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks Nate.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

4 for Dilip?

5 Go ahead, Franklin.

6 MEMBER QUARCOO: I take note of all 

7 the things it does and especially the fact that 

8 there are no alternatives. I was a little, not 

9 a little, I was worried about the, the report 

10 itself says that it makes expansive 

11 environmental impact, loss of habitat. And if 

12 you have effects of pollution of the 

13 environment during the mining process. So 

14 report says there are no alternatives. Does 

15 anybody have any information whether there are 

16 other things coming down the line that are less 

17 impactful when it comes to the environment?

18 MEMBER NANDWANI: Not that I am 

19 aware of. I don't know, anybody else on the 

20 board is aware of.

21 MEMBER SMITH: No. There are no 

22 other -- there are no current petitions before 
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1 the board that would be an alternative to this 

2 material.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

4 Thank you, Dilip.

5 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

6 MEMBER SMITH: Okey doke. We are 

7 moving to 205.605(b)(14) ethylene, allowed for 

8 post-harvest ripening of tropical fruit and de9 greening of citrus. And this is also Logan. 

10 MEMBER PETREY: Thanks Kyla. 

11 Synthetic. Sorry. Got that one right this 

12 time. Yeah. Ethylene is used in the post13 harvest ripening of tropical fruit and de14 greening of citrus. It is produced naturally 

15 by fruits, but it's not been commercialized. 

16 The amount that is used in algaculture is 

17 miniscule compared to the bulk of ethylene that 

18 is produced worldwide.

19 The manufacturing of this is, 

20 through cracking, through thermal methods, 

21 through also dehydration of ethanol. The 

22 international acceptance is pretty wide. It's 
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1 used for again, the ripening of tropical fruit, 

2 the de-greening of citrus. There's also the 

3 use of sprouting potatoes post-harvest and for 

4 the onions as well. It's also listed here, the 

5 flower induction of pineapple, which we have 

6 that in our crop section. 

7 As far as the environmental issues, 

8 it's more related to the manufacturing and the 

9 petroleum use. But ethylene itself it's 

10 considered not to harm the environment or 

11 organisms since the substance is not present in 

12 quantities or concentrations that could cause 

13 long-term harmful effects on the environment or 

14 biodiversity.

15 As far as human health, the main 

16 concern is because it is explosive in nature 

17 but it's highly regulated through labeling and 

18 registration requirements beyond the risk of 

19 harm due to explosive accident, over exposure 

20 could cause headaches or drowsiness. And so 

21 following the label is -- if following the 

22 label, there is no harm.
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1 Let's see, during our discussions, 

2 the question of you know, whether alternatives 

3 are available, the alternative I guess would be 

4 just to let things ripen naturally. And that 

5 has been brought up and brought up by 

6 commentors, however -- and also the statement 

7 is that it's not essential to produce the crop, 

8 but rather is employed for economic reasons.

9 It may not be essential for the 

10 fruit to ripen with it, but it is essential to 

11 sustain the supply chain to operate. I think 

12 that whenever it came up, the sunset on the 

13 flowering for pineapples, the presence of 

14 farmers that really relied on it for their 

15 business to sustain I think really set the 

16 precedent that sometimes you know, these things 

17 are needed for the business to be maintained.

18 Other alternatives, there was a 

19 mention of using smoke, but that resulted in 

20 decaying of product and low quality of product. 

21 We asked what types of organic tropical fruits 

22 are currently being ripened. The list was 
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1 bananas, mangos, avocados, and papaya. 

2 Are there any questions?

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, please go 

4 ahead.

5 MEMBER D'AMORE: No questions, just 

6 some supporting testimony. The banana industry 

7 as we know it today would not exist without it. 

8 Banana's are harvested absolutely dead green in 

9 the tropics, shipped dead green over weeks, 

10 usually brought all the way into retail 

11 distribution centers and gassed there with the 

12 ethylene.

13 We wouldn't have a chance of a good 

14 banana where we live without it.

15 MEMBER PETREY: Thank you, Jerry.

16 MEMBER D'AMORE: Certainly.

17 MEMBER TUNER: I agree with Jerry. 

18 I'm fully supportive of the material. I just 

19 wanted to acknowledge that in the context of 

20 our conversations about climate smart 

21 agriculture, this is just a great example for 

22 all of our reference of the complexity of 
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1 really managing the full climate footprint of 

2 the food industry, the organic industry, we're 

3 looking at full scope of gas emissions 

4 accounting. You know, this is a factor, this 

5 is a material that's in a factor -- I don't 

6 mean to call it out specifically -- but it is 

7 one that sort of leads to an obvious 

8 recognition from my perspective. So just a 

9 note.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: Logan, thanks for 

12 your thorough review on this, both from a crops 

13 perspective and also handling. I might have 

14 missed this, but I see that it was petitions 

15 for use with pears and it looks to be that the 

16 NOSB did not recommend pairs to be added.

17 MEMBER PETREY: Yeah. I'm glad you 

18 brought that up. Yeah. So in 2008 they 

19 recommended not to put on, you know to have it 

20 for pears. That vote was, it was eight yes, 

21 five no. 

22 It was petitions for that you know, 
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1 but in the testimony, it found out that in the 

2 industry that people were able to get rid of 

3 all of their pears so there wasn't necessarily, 

4 it wasn't make or break for the industry like 

5 some of these tropical, you know, some of these 

6 tropical fruits are. It seemed to be more of 

7 just that economic boost that people were 

8 looking for. And so it concluded on the board 

9 that it was not necessary or essential for the 

10 business, unlike what bananas would be.

11 MEMBER BURCH: Thank you.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

13 or comments? 

14 Jerry, please go ahead.

15 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah. I'm not sure 

16 why this doesn't get more play. But unless I'm 

17 really off on my statistics, probably 80 

18 percent of all the tomatoes we eat in the 

19 United States has gone through this process as 

20 well. If you get a red tomato without a calyx 

21 on it, you probably have a gassed tomato as 

22 well. Thank you.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

2 questions or comments?

3 MEMBER SMITH: I might argue that 

4 that probably be wouldn't be allowed for a 

5 tomato based on the current annotation as a 

6 tropical -- I don't think tomato fits tropical 

7 fruit, however --

8 MEMBER PETREY: It is for 

9 conventional use.

10 MEMBER SMITH: Oh, it's 

11 conventional.

12 MEMBER PETREY: I had growers call 

13 me and ask like, why aren't tomatoes you know, 

14 allowed for organics because it would make our 

15 industry so much stronger. Because there's, 

16 especially in the south, I think everything's 

17 worse in the southeast but -- especially in the 

18 southeast when you're dealing with you know, 

19 all the rains and the issues you know, getting 

20 that fruit that close to ripe because you 

21 really lose a lot of that timing. 

22 But no, yeah. In the conventional, 
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1 it is absolutely used. That is mainstream for 

2 conventional tomatoes. So I just want to sign 

3 a petition and get it on, see what we can do.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah. Go ahead, 

5 Kim.

6 MEMBER HUSEMAN: I guess a follow-up 

7 question from that is, are there, other than 

8 the word "tropical," are -- is there an exact 

9 list of which tropical or which fruits --

10 MEMBER PETREY: Sure. Yeah, so it's 

11 not defined in the NOP, and I saw that in the 

12 TR that it's actually not defined. So I don't 

13 know, maybe they can branch out. But that was 

14 one of the questions that we were having, and 

15 the list that was put out there was bananas, 

16 mangos -- I don't think it's a technical term -

17 - and so but yeah. Avocados, bananas, papaya, 

18 mango, so.

19 Kyla, do you have anything on that? 

20 Anything more?

21 MEMBER SMITH: No. Just that was 

22 noted in the TR. We asked the question. 
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1 MEMBER PETREY: Yeah.

2 MEMBER SMITH: Those were the 

3 answers we got. 

4 MEMBER PETREY: Tropical tomatoes, 

5 so yeah.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

7 questions? All right. Thank you, Logan.

8 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Moving to 

9 205.605(b)(16), glycerides, mono and di, for 

10 use only in drum drying of food. This is 

11 Allison.

12 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks, Kyla.

13 All right. Glycerides are 

14 components of fats. They're used as an 

15 emulsifier and a release agent in drum drying 

16 processes that create flakes or powders for 

17 products that might be used in snacks, soups, 

18 baked chips, bakery items, cereals.

19 And I did think it was noteworthy 

20 that in 1995, the NOSB had noted that the food 

21 industry was trying to move away from these 

22 materials, but they were particularly important 
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1 for potato flake products. Glycerides are 

2 prepared from fats or oils or fat-forming acids 

3 that come from edible sources but go through a 

4 number of chemical reactions to isolate them.

5 Canada has an equivalent listing, 

6 but it doesn't appear to be listed on any other 

7 international organic standards. There aren't 

8 particularly significant environmental issues 

9 aside from being produced from non-organic 

10 agricultural sources which may involve 

11 synthetic pesticide and fertilizer use.

12 A variety of other drying methods 

13 can be used to create flakes, but drum drying 

14 is apparently particularly effective for potato 

15 flakes, although the TR does note that freeze 

16 drying could be another option.

17 And there also are potential uses of 

18 organic rice bran extract, organic soy 

19 lecithin, or gum Arabic. But each of those 

20 apparently has some sort of shortcomings. So 

21 this again was a lesson in being careful with 

22 our words. 
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1 We wanted to find out what products 

2 these glycerides are used in. Didn't specify 

3 what organic products, so one commentor listed 

4 many, many products that have glycerides, but I 

5 don't think they were organic products. But 

6 their comment did prompt me to do my own Google 

7 search. And I did find two brands of organic 

8 potato flakes that do list glycerides on the 

9 label.

10 I did also find a couple of non11 organic potato products that don't. So maybe 

12 it is possible to produce these products 

13 without glycerides, but no one spoke to that 

14 specifically in public comments.

15 We heard from a few certifiers and 

16 only one noted that one operation was using 

17 them. But several commentors did support 

18 relisting just to keep options opened. One 

19 commentor also suggested delisting because of 

20 the potential alternatives that were noted in 

21 the TR. 

22 We didn't get any specific comments 
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1 from producers about why this material and not 

2 something else. But the past history around 

3 potato flakes and apparent continued use in 

4 potato flakes leads me to believe that there is 

5 still something special about this ingredient 

6 for this particular product.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

8 Allison? All right.

9 Thank you Allison.

10 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Moving to 

11 205.605(b)(19) magnesium stearate for use only 

12 in agriculture products labeled made with 

13 organics. Specified foods or food groups 

14 prohibited in agriculture products labeled

15 organic. This is also Allison.

16 MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. And 

17 this is another non-particularly commonly used 

18 ingredient but is key for a few items. It's 

19 most typically used as a binding agent in 

20 supplements or an anti-caking agent in various 

21 powdered products. It's typically made from 

22 the hydrogenation of fatty acids that are 
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1 derived from edible sources and go through 

2 several chemical reactions. 

3 Canada has an equivalent listing and 

4 there was one little oddity, the 2018 TR said 

5 that mag stearate was listed in the codex, but 

6 I couldn't find the listing, so I don't know if 

7 something has changed, or if that previous note 

8 was in error, but it doesn't seem to be in 

9 codex and no other mention of it in other 

10 international organic standards.

11 Like the glycerides, environmental 

12 impacts are mostly related to the raw product 

13 being produced in conventional agriculture and 

14 there may also be some other potential impacts 

15 from the substances involved in synthesis, but 

16 really just at high concentration, so it 

17 shouldn't be an issue with the small quantities 

18 that we're talking about here.

19 Heard from a handful of certifiers, 

20 a few more folks apparently are using this. 

21 One certifier noted that it's used particularly 

22 as a binding agent in pharmaceutical and 
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1 dietary products. And several organizations 

2 stated that they don't oppose relisting it 

3 particularly because it's limited to made with 

4 organic products, so they felt that that was 

5 less of a concern for the integrity of the 

6 organic label. And one commenter just 

7 generally supported relisting to keep options 

8 open. 

9 Any questions on this one?

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

11 Allison? Seeing none.

12 Thank you, Allison.

13 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Moving to 

14 205.605(b)(23) phosphoric acid, cleaning of 

15 food-contact surfaces and equipment only. This 

16 is my material.

17 Phosphoric acid is, as stated in the 

18 annotation is used in organic handling and 

19 processing as a cleaning agent for food-contact 

20 surfaces and equipment only. It's manufactured 

21 using two different processes, the thermal 

22 process or the wet process. It used to be, and 
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1 the end use used to dictate the manufacturing 

2 process however, now due to the thermal process 

3 being more expensive, the wet process is most 

4 exclusively being used. 

5 The TR noted that it had -- was 

6 relatively benign in regards to its impact on 

7 the environment. As far as international 

8 acceptance goes, it is similarly listed in the 

9 Canadian standards but not listed in other 

10 areas -- and also in IFOAM.

11 And we did ask two questions for 

12 this particular use, as this is also listed on 

13 the livestock list. So the first question was 

14 focused on essentiality. This is widely used, 

15 we got lots of comments, so it appears to be a 

16 pretty important cleaner/sanitizer.

17 One commentor did specifically note 

18 that since phosphoric acid acts as a de-scaler, 

19 it can help remove biofilms and so the action 

20 is different than other sanitizers. And so for 

21 that reason, this material is the material of 

22 choice in certain situations and may not 
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1 necessarily be part of like a sanitizer 

2 rotation.

3 The second question was aimed at 

4 gathering information on a particular sector. 

5 And this seems to be pretty widely used, and 

6 spans across many different types of operations 

7 from dairy's to processed product handlers, to 

8 post-harvest handling uses. So lots of uses.

9 This substance was discussed 

10 yesterday by my table-mate Amy. She did a 

11 great job of summarizing all the comments. 

12 Similar comments were also noted for this 

13 listing as well. Most commentors seem to be in 

14 favor of relisting, but as Amy indicated there 

15 were lots of questions raised related to 

16 consistency. So that is certifier consistency 

17 as well as consistency on the listing itself 

18 and the annotation itself.

19 And as I noted yesterday, I will 

20 follow-up with the ACA materials with that 

21 group because I know that they just discussed 

22 this material to get more information to see if 
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1 consensus was reached and if there's remaining 

2 questions.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

4 Kyla? All right. Hearing none.

5 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Moving to 

6 205.605(b)(24) potassium carbonate. And this 

7 material is Kim's.

8 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Kyla.

9 So potassium carbonate is listed 

10 with a wide range of uses. Through the write11 up, we go through different potential uses that 

12 potassium carbonate can be used. We did have a 

13 TR; the TR has been completed and was returned 

14 and found to be sufficient.

15 Through international acceptance it 

16 is listed as an approved substance pretty much 

17 throughout. The question that we asked for the 

18 stakeholder was since reviewed, are there any 

19 other substitute products that are on the 

20 market or any other manufacturing processes 

21 that could warrant the removal of potassium 

22 carbonate.
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1 It seems that the most -- what's 

2 used most for potassium carbonate is to lower 

3 sodium content in products. Some up to 18 

4 percent reduction of sodium. But it was also 

5 mentioned in wine production, that it is a pH, 

6 that it will reduce the acidity in wines. So 

7 it is used in that capacity as well.

8 Of the half a dozen comments that we 

9 had, there were two that asked for more 

10 specification and to narrow the scope of the 

11 use of potassium carbonate, wanting more 

12 emphasis on -- to be used when sodium carbonate 

13 is not appropriate or to reduce you know, just 

14 as a reduction agent for sodium itself.

15 So I would like to hear more from 

16 the community as we get ready for the fall, 

17 around some of the other uses of potassium 

18 carbonate, maybe more specifically in the wine 

19 industry as well. That's what I've got for 

20 today.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

22 Kim? All right. Hearing none.
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1 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Moving to 

2 205.605(b)(35) sulfur dioxide for use only in 

3 wine labeled "made with organic grapes," 

4 provided that total sulfite concentration does 

5 not exceed 100 ppm. This material is Allisons.

6 MEMBER JOHNSON: And I cannot tell 

7 you how much my favorite this listing is. I 

8 have spent many, many, many hours talking about 

9 sulfur dioxide, and organic and made with 

10 organic wine.

11 So I'll just start by saying that 

12 sulfur dioxide is an ancient food additive. 

13 It's been used as an anti-microbial and 

14 antioxidant in food and clean wine since Greek 

15 and Roman times. Fortunately our wine has 

16 improved quite a bit since then.

17 In wine, it's primarily used to 

18 inhibit microbial growth and prevent spoilage 

19 and oxidation. It can be made from elemental 

20 sulfur, from mineral ores, and apparently waste 

21 materials that contain sulfur. But most 

22 typical is to burn sulfur to create sulfur 
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1 dioxide.

2 It can be added in various forms, 

3 such as pellet, liquid as sulfurous acid, and 

4 as gas. And there are some notes that I'll get 

5 to about different forms of, sources of SO2 

6 that may be relevant here and may need some 

7 more examination.

8 Wine can be made without sulfites, 

9 but it typically needs to have other measures 

10 in place to avoid microbial contamination, to 

11 manage fermentation, and to control oxidation. 

12 So they'll use things like really tight 

13 temperature controlled facilities, 

14 pasteurization with UV light, and stabled 

15 gasses to fill the head space in the bottle. 

16 And these wines typically have a shorter shelf 

17 life.

18 I went into a lot of detail in the 

19 sunset document about the international rules 

20 for sulfur dioxide in wine because most of the 

21 other international organic standards are much 

22 more permissive of sulfur dioxide. They 
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1 include more forms, so potassium metabisulfite, 

2 potassium bisulfite. They allow higher levels, 

3 and they allow organic labelling rather than 

4 "made with organic".

5 And they also allow it for other 

6 fruit alcohols. So things like cider and perry 

7 which is interesting, as those are starting to 

8 take off as bigger markets in the US.

9 Sulfites get a lot of attention 

10 because about one percent of the population are 

11 very sensitive to sulfites. Reactions can 

12 range from mild allergic reactions to acute 

13 anaphylaxis and death. So it's very sensitive 

14 if you're sensitive to sulfites.

15 But unlike most chemicals that are 

16 harmful to people, there's actually strong 

17 regulation and oversight, and sulfites are very 

18 clearly labeled on food. So if you are someone 

19 who is sensitive to sulfites, you have labels 

20 to protect you.

21 And I also wanted to just draw 

22 attention to the impacts of the made with 
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1 organic portion of the annotation and the 

2 impact it may have had and continue to have in 

3 the organic wine sector. 

4 I can say just anecdotally from 

5 working in handling certification, it's 

6 extremely confusing to the wine industry, to 

7 consumers. 

8 Say this is a product that has all 

9 organic grapes but no, you can't label it 

10 organic. You say it's made with organic 

11 grapes. There's a very strict way about how 

12 you write that out, there's a lot of 

13 interaction of TTB and the alcohol regulation 

14 side. So it is a product of negotiation among 

15 the community and getting comfortable with this 

16 material that has some down sides and up sides. 

17 But it has resulted in a very confusing 

18 framework.

19 And just to note, conventional 

20 production of wine grapes involves a huge 

21 number of harmful pesticides and so we need to 

22 weigh that trade-off as we're thinking about 
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1 the impact of this material.

2 I realized my California bias was 

3 showing in thinking about this material. 

4 Because almost no one has clients using it 

5 except for our California certifier, CCOF, who 

6 has quite a few. And their comments were very 

7 helpful. They have both organic and made with 

8 organic producing clients. And they said that 

9 they have gotten questions about other forms of 

10 sulfur dioxide, so potassium metabisulfite, and 

11 potassium bisulfite.

12 The -- sorry, I need to catch my 

13 breath. I get all excited about SO2, you guys.

14 SO the TR notes that potassium 

15 metabisulfite is not allowed according to OMRI. 

16 But apparently you can add potassium 

17 metabisulfite to water and the gas, the SO2 can 

18 come off of that and that's a, maybe a grey 

19 area about whether that's allowed. And they 

20 also noted that they've heard anecdotally that 

21 metabisulfite may be safer to use. 

22 And then the TR they noted, which I 
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1 appreciated, that the TR does not address 

2 whether potassium bisulfate is allowed. It is 

3 listed in several international regulations, 

4 not specifically in the NDR's and not mentioned 

5 in the TR. And they noted that they have heard 

6 some EU certifiers interpret it as allowed.

7 So it looks like the actual 

8 composition of SO2 is something that needs more 

9 attention from us, maybe in annotation review 

10 or through some other channel. 

11 And several commentors supported 

12 relisting. Several noted that they supported 

13 relisting because of the made with organic 

14 limitation, that draws a distinction around the 

15 integrity of the organic label, and they were 

16 more comfortable with that.

17 One commentor did note that in 

18 addition to the risks around elemental sulfur 

19 that we touched on yesterday, the farm market 

20 risks and the inhalation risks, that using it 

21 in processing also presents inhalation risks 

22 for workers. But again, that the made with 
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1 organic annotation gave them some comfort 

2 around that.

3 We didn't hear directly from any 

4 wine makers, and I was really disappointed. 

5 I'd love to hear how this listing is impacting 

6 the wine industry, what's changed since I was 

7 kind of deep into it. There is new attention 

8 around natural wines that may change how we 

9 feel about this material, so I'd love for the 

10 fall, if anyone has winemaker connections, to 

11 hear more directly from folks who are using 

12 this material or who have decided not to and 

13 how that has worked out for their marketing 

14 plans.

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate and then 

16 Wood.

17 MEMBER LEWIS: I may not have this 

18 correct, but my understanding is that 

19 biodynamic wines require the grapes to be grown 

20 organically and do allow sulfites to be added. 

21 So I am curious if there is any sort of kind 

22 of, market access label confusion elements that 
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1 might be worth discussing while we have this in 

2 front of us.

3 MEMBER JOHNSON: Yeah. Thanks for 

4 mentioning that, Nate. I got lost over it just

5 to not to get too deep into all of the other 

6 standards. But yeah, sulfur dioxide is also 

7 allowed in biodynamic lines. So I think I 

8 often see biodynamic and organic marketed 

9 together. So then it would be in the made with 

10 organic, biodynamic camp, I guess. But yeah, 

11 that's another data point under what's allowed 

12 under other standards.

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood.

14 MEMBER TURNER: Thank you, Allison. 

15 Is there anything worth -- anything magical 

16 about that 100 part per million threshold in 

17 the listing and is that one of the issues that 

18 we should maybe lean into a little bit and try 

19 to understand whether there's something there?

20 MEMBER JOHNSON: That's a good 

21 question. I don't think there's anything 

22 magical about it. My, just like reaching back 
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1 into my brain, but my understanding is that the 

2 current annotation is the product of 

3 negotiation. So I imagine that's how we got to 

4 that number.

5 The EU has kind of most elaborate 

6 rules around sulfur dioxide and that mirrors 

7 how wine is regulated there generally. They 

8 allow higher amounts in white wines; they can 

9 be in sweet wines. Lower amounts in red. This 

10 is -- hear me on my sulfur dioxide soap box, 

11 but there's a lot of consumer misunderstanding 

12 or misperception about sulfite use. 

13 When we used to do wine tastings, 

14 I'd frequently have people come to me and say 

15 they drink organic wine because they're 

16 sensitive to sulfites while they were drinking 

17 a white, made with organic wine that had 

18 sulfites.

19 So maybe the lower levels help but 

20 consumer understanding of the issue and the 

21 reality of production seem to have a big 

22 disconnect. There are a lot of made with 
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1 organic wines on the market, so that 100 ppm 

2 threshold isn't keeping folks out, but I don't 

3 have a great sense of whether, if we played 

4 with that number, it would have a significant 

5 impact. That would be another great thing to 

6 hear about for the fall.

7 MEMBER TURNER: Thanks. I love the 

8 nerdiness on wine. It's great.

9 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

10 for Allison? 

11 MEMBER SMITH: I don't have a 

12 question; I just have a comment that I was so 

13 grateful that you were on the Handling 

14 Subcommittee when this material came up because 

15 you have some great work. So super fortunate 

16 for me.

17 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear.

18 MEMBER JOHNSON: And for me. Thanks 

19 for letting me work on it.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

21 Thank you, Allison.

22 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Moving to 
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1 205.606(g) fructooligosaccharides. I did it. 

2 FOS. We will just say FOS from now on. This 

3 is Jerry.

4 MEMBER D'AMORE: I'll take one run 

5 at it because I practiced. 

6 Fructooligosaccharides. And I'm happy to go 

7 with F-O-S as well. Thank you.

8 Okay. FOS is on the national list 

9 at 205.606 as a non-organically produced 

10 agricultural product allowed as an ingredient 

11 in and on products labelled organic. FOS is 

12 incorporated into milk products, cakes, 

13 biscuits, cookies, crackers, yogurt, ice cream, 

14 soup, hard candy, among other foods.

15 It has two primary manufacturing 

16 processes, one using inulin-derived -- called 

17 inulin-derived -- from a dietary fiber found in 

18 chicory or Belgian endive, Jerusalem artichoke, 

19 agave, and other plants. The other one is 

20 sucrose derived. Sugar cane, sugar beet, 

21 extracted sugar, and fermented with 

22 aspergillus.
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1 Both processes use heat and pH 

2 control to speed up the enzyme reactions. 

3 Specifically, adjustment of pH is accomplished 

4 using hydrochloric acid, which is a strong 

5 acid, and sodium hydroxide, a strong base. 

6 Potassium phosphate is also used for pH 

7 control. The FOS produced can then be further 

8 purified through filtration or further 

9 fermentation. 

10 Regarding environmental issues, 

11 there is no information available from EPA or 

12 FDA to suggest that environmental 

13 contaminations result from the manufacturer, 

14 use, misuse, or disposal of short chain FOS. 

15 Ancillary substances, there are no ancillary 

16 substances intentionally included in FOS.

17 Discussions. During the last sunset 

18 review, FOS remained at -- I don't want to get 

19 into that, that's what I wanted to avoid. 

20 Okay. I'm going to read it. During the last 

21 sunset review, FOS remained at 205.606 by a 

22 vote of 14 to 1. Most stakeholder comments 
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1 were in support of the continued listing of 

2 FOS. Further, there appeared to be no sources 

3 of organic FOS coming out of the latest review 

4 session. 

5 Given the strongest opposition to 

6 keeping FOS on the national list, centers 

7 around the availability of organic supply. The 

8 Handling Subcommittee will focus on this 

9 aspect.

10 Our one question to the stakeholders 

11 was, what is the current availability of 

12 suitable organic supply for the manufacture of 

13 FOS. The public comment process yielded not 

14 much. As a atter of fact, it's the lightest 

15 return on that I've seen in three and a half 

16 years.

17 So there were eight respondents. 

18 That doesn't minimize the value, by they way. 

19 So there were eight respondents. Five 

20 supported relisting, two opposed relisting, 

21 with one saying that it has never been 

22 necessary. The others saying that it is not an 
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1 agricultural product.

2 I'll spend a little bit of time with 

3 these myself. And there was also one 

4 organization that is not taking a position.

5 So when I stumbled there for a 

6 moment, I thought I was going to bring myself 

7 into a position of having to explain the long 

8 history of FOS with our program. But if you'll 

9 ignore the fact that I stumbled on it, we won't 

10 have to go into that. Because it really isn't 

11 germane. So that's what I have.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

13 Jerry on fructooligosaccharides.

14 All right. Hearing none, back to 

15 you Kyla. Thank you, Jerry.

16 MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Last material 

17 here for handling, 205.606(l) lecithin de18 oiled. This is also Jerry.

19 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you. One 

20 second please.

21 Lecithin de-oiled, 205.606, non22 organic agricultural substance allowed. The 
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1 major applications for lecithin include 

2 margarine, chocolates, in instantizing powder, 

3 release sprays, and in baked goods. Lecithin 

4 improves water absorption, increasing volume 

5 and shelf life as well as improving uniformity.

6 Lecithin is extracted from soy beans 

7 and other plants and is then isolated as a gum, 

8 following hydration of solvent extracted soy. 

9 The wet gums are then centrifuged, bleached, 

10 and dried.

11 Environmental issues in the product 

12 itself not much, but I'd like to read what 

13 hexane plays in this. It's been asked a lot 

14 historically and there is a conclusive FDA look 

15 at hexane.

16 So under environmental issues, 

17 hexane is used to extract crude oils in soy 

18 flakes as it gives the highest yield. Hexane 

19 is then separated from the soy bean oil in 

20 evaporators. The evaporated hexane is 

21 recovered and returned to the extraction 

22 process. Hydrogen peroxide and benzol peroxide 
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1 is used in the bleaching process. 

2 Increase in environmental concerns 

3 in using these chemicals have resulted in 

4 legislation that could restrict processing 

5 operations that use hexane. In 1979, which was 

6 quite a while ago, a report contracted by the 

7 FDA concluded that there is no evidence in 

8 available information on lecithin with hydrogen 

9 peroxide that demonstrates or suggests 

10 reasonable grounds to suspect a hazard to the 

11 public when used at levels which are now 

12 currently used.

13 Regarding human health, there were 

14 no acute exposure studies found for the soy 

15 bean derived lecithin. Lecithin is affirmed as 

16 a generally recognized as safe or GRAS with no 

17 limitations then current good manufacturing 

18 practices.

19 Discussion. Oh, ancillary 

20 substances. Under current use as an 

21 emulsifier, there are no ancillary substances 

22 required for the use of lecithin. Discussion 
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1 during the last sunset review the NOSB reviewed 

2 12-13 to keep lecithin de-oiled in the national 

3 list.

4 Stakeholder comments tended to 

5 center around the availability of suitable and 

6 sufficient supply of organic raw material, 

7 mostly soy bean or corn. Five years ago it was 

8 felt that there was not sufficient organic 

9 supply.

10 The question of suitable and 

11 sufficient supply of raw material, organic 

12 material, was addressed by the 2022 limited 

13 scope TR which was received in February of this 

14 year. Although it appears to be some products 

15 that are both organic and readily available, it 

16 was noted that these alternatives do not result 

17 in the same quality of finished product. And 

18 to support that, I took something directly out 

19 of our subcommittee meeting, the minutes.

20 The CR was not particularly 

21 contentious. It is a limited scope TR and 

22 given that we asked for was one specific 
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1 question, it was deemed sufficient. We asked 

2 for a look into organic alternatives to 

3 lecithin and a list was provided. Some 

4 products that appeared to be organic and 

5 readily available, but the list was rendered 

6 questionable with a broad statement of the 

7 finished product can suffer with the use of 

8 these organic alternatives.

9 Okay. This is one is not as light 

10 in terms of current stakeholder comments for 

11 this go around. At the full board meeting 

12 there were abut 16 total comments with the vast 

13 majority being written. Half of the comments 

14 were strongly in favor of relisting. One group 

15 did not take a position but noted that they 

16 have 12 registered users.

17 Tying in nicely with the TR that we 

18 just looked at, three commentors noted that 

19 there may, underlined twice, already be 

20 adequate and suitable supply. Several 

21 commentors were adamant that adequate and 

22 suitable supply has not yet been demonstrated. 
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1 And one major cooperative is not ready to 

2 comment to the question of adequate supply, 

3 suitable supply, which I think is the 

4 overriding question, but will give an opinion 

5 before the October meeting.

6 So again, focusing on perhaps 

7 suitable, adequate supply. That's what I got.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood, please go 

9 ahead, then Kim.

10 MEMBER TURNER: Jerry, can you 

11 remind me, so it derives from -- the soybeans 

12 are conventional soybeans that it's derived 

13 from and not, not -- there's no distinction 

14 between conventional versus non-GMO soybeans. 

15 Can you offer any insight into that source? 

16 MEMBER D'AMORE: Other than to say 

17 that it can go both ways to my knowledge, and 

18 no I can't go further than that. Maybe 

19 somebody else though.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim.

21 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yeah. I think 

22 there is a comment in here about using non-GMO 
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1 beans. I'd have to look back and see but there 

2 is a comment if you look in the notes.

3 MEMBER TURNER: Okay. I'll look 

4 again.

5 MEMBER HUSEMAN: Can I finish my --

6 oh sorry, are --

7 MEMBER BRUCH: Oh, I was just going 

8 to say the comment on non-GMO soybeans or 

9 organic soybeans was a potential for allergens. 

10 So sorry, go ahead.

11 MEMBER HUSEMAN: So not only can 

12 lecithin be produced from soybeans, but it can 

13 also be produced from canola, sunflower. In 

14 fact, we had a public commentor in the oral

15 comments talk about using sunflower derived 

16 lecithin and the supply chain from that regard.

17 This is another revenue stream for 

18 the organic oil seed industry. Shout out. 

19 Okay. So I'd really like to hear some more 

20 comments before the fall meeting of when we 

21 talk about commercial availability you know, 

22 what can be done. There's crush facilities all 
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1 over the -- I say all over the US. There's 

2 crush facilities very strategically placed 

3 within the US. 

4 Yes, can we be, as we talk about 

5 climate smart there can be some logistic 

6 constraints and moving products from one area 

7 to another, but should that inhibit, when we 

8 say, "commercially available," is it regionally 

9 commercially available? Is it the incentive to 

10 not strip the lecithin? What's the barrier?

11 Because I don't know if you tell me 

12 the barrier is because we don't produce it, I 

13 don't know if I believe that statement.

14 MEMBER D'AMORE: Well again, this 

15 harkens back to a few other things that we've 

16 talked about, and I'll always default to the 

17 berry industry, and this one is colors as well.

18 The problem as I read it and 

19 understand it is that yes, there's production 

20 and yes, it's regional and yes, it doesn't mix 

21 very well. You can't batch it that well. In 

22 other words, getting some in Nebraska and then 
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1 some on the east coast. It to me, has been 

2 portrayed as mostly a logistic issue and 

3 problem, and a batching problem.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy and then 

5 Nate.

6 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. We're ending 

7 on a really good topic here in handling. I 

8 have several questions for you Jerry.

9 MEMBER D'AMORE: Oh no, you've got 

10 your big book out too.

11 MEMBER BRUCH: I actually do. Okay. 

12 I do have a couple questions.

13 One, just to understand. You 

14 mentioned in the TR, the limited scope TR that 

15 you most recently got, there were questions of 

16 quality on the finished product if organic 

17 alternatives were used. 

18 MEMBER D'AMORE: That's correct.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Can you elaborate on 

20 that first before I ask the other one?

21 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah. This morning 

22 -- there's a list of five different things that 
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1 were looked at pretty thoroughly. I don't have 

2 it with me, it's up on my desk, but it's in the 

3 TR. And the TR was a little bit of a tease 

4 because they were going on and on and on about 

5 -- giving none the sense that perhaps there is 

6 a path here but then they you know, 

7 systematically tore that apart by looking to 

8 quality of the end product.

9 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. I think 

10 seeking to understand that piece is really 

11 important, but I appreciated Kim's comments 

12 about just -- and it fits in line, we've had 

13 this common theme about market expansion. This 

14 is a perfect, perfect example here of 

15 connecting the pieces.

16 We have -- I actually need a home 

17 for some of my crops right now, my organic 

18 crops. I can grow organic soybeans, I have 

19 actually tested on my farm, organic canola. 

20 I'd love to produce that. If you look at the 

21 latitude of where that crop is produced, I'm 

22 right in line with that. Bringing that 
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1 production domestically would be amazing. 

2 As well as sunflowers. I've grown 

3 those as well organically. That's -- we can 

4 brin those home. I want to make a comment. 

5 There was an indication that there was previous 

6 potential supply chain issues with organic 

7 sunflowers in the Ukraine but maybe 

8 availability is better now.

9 If we look at the timing of the war 

10 that occurred over there, that was February of 

11 last year. Producers had the inputs in Ukraine 

12 to actually produce the crop. The ports were 

13 the challenge. This year will be a potentially 

14 different story in the Ukraine.

15 My brother in law used to farm there 

16 and I have some friends that farm over there 

17 currently that are Ukrainian. They're saying 

18 they can't get inputs. There's a problem. The 

19 bottleneck now for production in the Ukraine is 

20 inputs.

21 So I think we all need to be on our 

22 toes in an organic community about just, when 
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1 we are looking globally to source these 

2 products, you know we might have a lag of 

3 understanding if they're actually going to be 

4 available. So I think again, availability 

5 might be in question for international sources 

6 of the base material.

7 And then secondarily, the market 

8 expansion. This just dovetails in perfectly 

9 what we need to expand the rotational crops 

10 that we are able to grow in this country and 

11 then meet these markets. So that's kind of a 

12 couple things that I'd like to add.

13 MEMBER D'AMORE: Amy, could you 

14 define market expansion for me in the context 

15 of what you just said?

16 MEMBER BRUCH: When I say, "market 

17 expansion" I am just referencing the organic 

18 transition initiative which is part of the 

19 administration's overall growth and transition 

20 to organic success. And so what's looked at, 

21 the crops that Jenny mentioned in her opening, 

22 what's looked at or kind of the main focus is 
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1 grains, it's rotational crops, and it's 

2 legumes.

3 And if we look what is needed to 

4 make this product happen organically, those 

5 base materials. We mentioned sunflowers are 

6 kind of --

7 MEMBER D'AMORE: Yep.

8 MEMBER BRUCH: That would be a great 

9 rotational crop because it's different than the 

10 demanding nitrogen consuming crops. It does 

11 nitrogen, but it doesn't need as much as corn, 

12 it doesn't need as much as wheat. So it really 

13 compliments our rotational program great.

14 MEMBER D'AMORE: Good. Thank you 

15 very much. What you did was bring me back in 

16 line with your thinking which is what I asked 

17 for. Which is that there is a supply source 

18 right now that is not organic, and you can fill 

19 that immediately.

20 I default always to the end product 

21 and the pull for the raw material. So I 

22 appreciate that, and I understand it and I 
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1 agree with you.

2 MEMBER BRUCH: Well thank you. I 

3 think it's the chicken and the egg. We'd love 

4 to grow these crops; we need a market. 

5 MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay. 

6 MEMBER BRUCH: And then the market 

7 needs to understand that farmers can grow these 

8 crops and the cycle of the needs are a little 

9 bit different with our production, you know. 

10 At least in the Midwest. We're a little 

11 different than Logan down there that can grow 

12 whatever whenever. But we have one opportunity 

13 --

14 MEMBER PETREY: Still need the 

15 market.

16 MEMBER BRUCH: What did you say?

17 MEMBER PETREY: Still need the 

18 market.

19 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, exactly. We 

20 still need the market. We have kind of one 

21 time a year to grow certain crops in the 

22 Midwest. And we just need to, I just -- I mean 
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1 I love this program because it isn't rocket 

2 science. We just need to break things down in 

3 these very simple components and have some 

4 conversations. And we can solve so many 

5 challenges and these barriers that are not 

6 insurmountable. We can figure this out.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate and then 

8 Ryan and then Carolyn.

9 MEMBER LEWIS: Yeah. I just want to 

10 make sure that we leave the record clear that a 

11 non-organic lecithin would still have the non12 GMO requirement that's applied to all organic 

13 foods. So.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. 

15 Brian.

16 MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks Jerry. 

17 This is a good topic to end on. Pretty 

18 interesting stuff.

19 I have two questions. And the first 

20 one was about the lower quality that -- when 

21 you first said it I thought it was because of 

22 different sort of feed stocks were being used. 
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1 But is the lower quality that you were talking 

2 about just simply because they're organic?

3 MEMBER D'AMORE: The lower quality 

4 is the root material.

5 MEMBER CALDWELL: Oh, okay. Yeah, 

6 that makes -- I was surprised. Yeah. That 

7 makes sense. And I totally agree with Amy 

8 about, we need those markets for those 

9 rotational crops. It's a huge piece of the 

10 whole puzzle. 

11 The second question is about hexane 

12 though. And maybe this has been beaten to 

13 death in the past, and I'm sure I'm going to 

14 show my ignorance of handling here, but for 

15 instance, in the flavors discussion I was sort 

16 of under the impression that hexane would not 

17 be able to be used to extract those materials. 

18 And I'm wondering if for instance soybean oil 

19 allowed to be used from soybeans that are 

20 extracted with hexane? Because hexane's pretty 

21 nasty stuff. So, beyond harsh I would have to 

22 say, so.
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1 MEMBER D'AMORE: I can't help with 

2 the comparison between the two. I'm going on 

3 the TR and quite a bit of history over a couple 

4 of sunsets. So I can't comment to the colors. 

5 Sorry.

6 MEMBER CALDWELL: Well I would love 

7 to hear from some of the other handling folks -

8 -

9 MEMBER D'AMORE: Flavors. Beg your 

10 pardon.

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: Is hexane allowed 

12 to be used as an extracting agent for other 

13 approved materials, listed materials? Because 

14 I don't know, I just thought it was like an 

15 automatic no-no, but I guess I was wrong.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's go Allison 

17 then Kim.

18 MEMBER JOHNSON: I believe 

19 everything on 606 is subject to the big three 

20 scrutiny's of non-GMO, non-irradiated, no 

21 sewage sludge. You need an affidavit verifying 

22 that. But then beyond that, if it's not in the 
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1 annotation, I don't think there's any 

2 limitation on how it's produced. So that's 

3 where we need to weigh what we think is okay.

4 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah.

5 MEMBER JOHNSON: It would be 

6 interesting to know if there is an alternative. 

7 Like if we could get to the point where we have 

8 organic lecithin, it would have to be produced 

9 without hexane. So is there a process, and can 

10 we head in that direction?

11 MEMBER CALDWELL: That's perfect, 

12 Allison. That would be my follow-up too. 

13 That's great. Thank you.

14 MEMBER HUSEMAN: And that might 

15 actually speak to the difference in quality is 

16 because when you use a hexane extraction 

17 process it's a very consistent product. When 

18 you use an expeller/extruder process you can 

19 have more variation. So you have to be willing 

20 to take a little bit more of that variation 

21 from that process of production. 

22 But yes, it is specific to a non-GMO 
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1 seed. That's where the difference ends between 

2 conventional production and the approved used 

3 for this. Is you can -- the manufacturing 

4 process is still the same.

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan.

6 MEMBER PETREY: Just to reference 

7 back on the flavors. Just in the annotation, 

8 it's a non-synthetic allowed. Non-synthetic 

9 flavors may be used when organic flavors are 

10 not commercially available. All flavors must 

11 be derived from organic or non-synthetic 

12 sources only and must not be produced using 

13 synthetic solvents and carriers or artificial 

14 preservatives. 

15 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin.

16 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yeah. I had the 

17 same question about hexane. Normally, my guess 

18 is that there are other organic solvents. 

19 Maybe the availability, maybe different cost 

20 implications. I know that sometimes those 

21 things come into play. But I'm also concerned 

22 about the use of hexane.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn.

2 MEMBER DIMITRI: This is not about 

3 hexane. I wanted to follow up on Amy's comment 

4 about being able and willing to grow organic 

5 canola on your farm if you had a market. So 

6 like, we use the phrase, "market development" 

7 kind of casually and so like, specifically what 

8 would you need to actually grow sunflowers or 

9 grow canola's? Like can you operationalize 

10 like, what that would look like?

11 So assuming maybe some of this 

12 market development money could actually be used 

13 in a way that's helpful for producers.

14 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy then Jerry.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. 

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead.

17 MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you. I 

18 asked, perhaps you even noticed me retreating 

19 from the question that you're asking now, and I 

20 appreciate that you are asking it. The answer 

21 that I got is one that I understand from the 

22 prospective of the grower which is that there's 
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1 a market here. There is a current market. 

2 That current market is being supplied by a 

3 current input of materials.

4 Market development to me, and this 

5 is where I didn't want to go, is to have 

6 something on the far side that says, boy we 

7 need a lot more lecithin. Not that we need, 

8 you know, not that we need to replace the 

9 current supply, the current stock supply. So 

10 that's what I got out of it. Sorry for the 

11 interruption. You're welcome to answer.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No worries. 

13 I'll hand it to Amy to answer that question 

14 from Carolyn, and then Nate.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. Carolyn, I 

16 appreciate the question. You know, from my 

17 perspective, I just need a commitment on the 

18 market. These are crops that I really have 

19 investigated the ability to bring this 

20 production back home. Because I do study how, 

21 just kind of the transportation that's 

22 happening behind the scenes of organic 
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1 commodities, organic oil seeds, organic grains. 

2 And just note that I could reduce the carbon 

3 footprint if I could grow these products on my 

4 fields. I'd be closer to where they're being 

5 you know, consumed and taking out the 

6 logistical components.

7 For instance, a lot of organic 

8 canola is produced in Argentina and there's 

9 processing facilities in North Carolina. I 

10 think I could at least reduce that carbon 

11 footprint if I could bring those home. And I 

12 could grow them tomorrow if I had the seed, if 

13 I had the market commitment, and then the 

14 commitment from our risk management agency that 

15 yes, these are appropriate crops for your 

16 region and will at least put a safety net. If 

17 the wheels come off the bus with a major crop 

18 storm like hail, at least we'd be able to get 

19 whole to be able to farm the following year.

20 So I need a risk management 

21 component. I need a market component, and the 

22 rest you know, us farmers can take care of. 
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1 MEMBER DIMITRI: Great. Thank you.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nate and then 

3 Franklin.

4 MEMBER LEWIS: Just to add to the 

5 you know, back to the rule, 606 does have the 

6 commercial availability requirement. And this 

7 sort of relates a little bit back to our 

8 discussion yesterday on seed and the board 

9 recommendation that gave a little more teeth to 

10 the commercial availability seed requirement to 

11 try to give certifiers some more teeth in 

12 enforcing that commercial availability. And I 

13 think that is a potential way that we can push 

14 the industry towards seeking this and 

15 developing these markets with a little more 

16 urgency. So just sort of offering that 

17 reminder of the structure within which 606 

18 exists.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Franklin.

20 MEMBER QUARCOO: Yeah. I just 

21 realized, right after my last comment the I may 

22 have miscommunicated something. When I said 
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1 "organic solvent" I was defining it from the 

2 perspective of chemistry, not organic. And so 

3 when I said there are other organic solvents, 

4 I'm still basically talking synthetic. So I 

5 wanted to be very clear.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

7 MEMBER QUARCOO: Because of the 

8 community I'm talking to. So like I said, I'm

9 sure there other organic solvents. Not organic 

10 as here. 

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

12 MEMBER QUARCOO: But it will be an 

13 issue of solvency and cost and other things 

14 that may make the producers not want to use it, 

15 but I'm still concerned about hexane.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Noted for the 

17 record. Thank you.

18 Kyla.

19 MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. I just wanted 

20 to read from the TR. I don't know if this is 

21 helpful or not. But it says, "Though the 

22 hexane and acetone extractions both involve the 
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1 use of chemicals, the removal of these solvents 

2 through subsequent evaporation meets the 

3 requirements of a non-synthetic extract 

4 described by the NOP guidance 5033, 

5 classification of materials." I just wanted to 

6 put that on the record.

7 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy. 

8 MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. Kyla, one 

9 question with that. You said it does qualify 

10 for the removal. I'm wondering, through 

11 testing would trace hexane be noted in the 

12 finished product.

13 MEMBER SMITH: Don't know. Good 

14 question.

15 MEMBER BRUCH: What?

16 MEMBER SMTIH: I said I don't know. 

17 It's a good question.

18 MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. I'd like to 

19 have that answered by industry please. Thank 

20 you.

21 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Homework for the 

22 crowd. Other questions for Jerry? All right. 
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1 Fun one to end on.

2 Back to you Kyla.

3 MEMBER SMITH: Thank you. That 

4 concludes handling, you all. We did it!

5 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

6 We're going to -- we don't have any deferred 

7 votes. So we're going to go over into the NOSB 

8 work agenda/Materials update. Scroll through 

9 that. I'm not going to read it out loud, 

10 unlike Sacramento. So take a gander as --

11 Michelle, do you want to scroll 

12 through?

13 MEMBER BRUCH: Could we highlight 

14 some of the work agenda items, especially for 

15 CACS?

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. Go ahead.

17 MEMBER BRUCH: I think some people. 

18 Well no, you can just read them if you want, 

19 but I think some people were just coming back 

20 from lunch when I made the announcement. I 

21 like to make sure that's clear.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah. So on 
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1 CACS we're going to be continuing with the 

2 oversight improvements to deter fraud, 

3 consistent location identification, 

4 opportunities in organic support for 

5 transitioning producers, oversight improvement 

6 to deter fraud modernization of organic, 

7 increasing the minimum reporting requirements.

8 Enforcement residue testing for 

9 global supply chain. And that's what we wanted 

10 to emphasize there I think. Organic and 

11 climate smart agriculture, climate induced 

12 farming risk of crop insurance, and then 

13 organic and climate smart, what and why 

14 organic.

15 Thank you, Michelle. That's the 

16 list.

17 MS. ARSENAULT: I've left a couple 

18 on here with question marks because I was 

19 uncertain what we'll bring to the fall meeting. 

20 Just so people know why it says, vote.

21 MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. Those three 

22 petitions at the top there, magnesium 
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1 carbonate, magnesium carbonate hydroxide, and 

2 rye pollen extracts, we're waiting for TRs on 

3 all of them. So it will likely depend on when 

4 we get the TR and whether or not we'll go to a 

5 discussion document or a proposal.

6 And then all those beautiful 29 

7 sunsets.

8 MEMBER DIMITRI: Jerry, I want to 

9 know if you used Google pronounce to pronounce 

10 that very complex word that you had a lot of 

11 flair with.

12 MEMBER D'AMORE: I guess before I 

13 answer that, I'll ask you, should I have?

14 MEMBER DIMITRI: You're really 

15 asking the wrong person.

16 MEMBER D'AMORE: I don't know. I 

17 took a look at it and said, I need to master 

18 this. And I went somewhere, and had it 

19 whispered in my ear, and I thought I had it 

20 right. So -- but I became a big fan of FOS in 

21 any case.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And as a 
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1 reminder for Michelle that all of this gets 

2 posted on the website. So take your pictures 

3 but if you didn't get it, it's going to be up 

4 there.

5 All righty. Other business. We had 

6 a request from a few advocacy groups that they 

7 may not have heard us in the fall, for why we 

8 meet when we meet. So I want everyone to take 

9 a picture of this slide and send it to your 

10 farmers when they ask why do we meet. And it's 

11 not a conspiracy to keep farmers out of the 

12 room. 

13 And so a big shout-out to Michelle 

14 again on this slide, in the spring meeting last 

15 year, we heard from farmers that it's a 

16 frustrating time of year to meet. And I will 

17 just say that I agree. I am not planting my 

18 fields right now. I should be. I wish I was. 

19 But I am here. And so for those farmers who 

20 are frustrated giving three minutes of Zoom 

21 comments and then rushing out to their fields, 

22 I envy you.
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1 But the reason that we don't meet 

2 other times of the year, or the reason that 

3 there's a -- it's a tricky schedule trying to 

4 have it continually moving around -- are shown 

5 on the slide as we went through the year. So 

6 as you can see in January, we start our new 

7 members on January 24th. And so if we met 

8 earlier in January, we would technically be 

9 landing before our new members start, which is 

10 sort of a funky way to bring on and onboard new 

11 folks.

12 We have some federal holidays. We 

13 are competing with other meetings that I would 

14 say a lot of people really love to go to and we 

15 don't want to be the party crashers for those 

16 meetings. So like the ACA training, the 

17 EcoFarm event, winter travel for all those 

18 farmers who escape to Florida for a minute. 

19 All of those things we heard, and we were 

20 thinking, remember we have to have a six-month 

21 delay between meetings to keep them even. And 

22 so if we meet in January and then January 
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1 doesn't work, that corresponding six-month fall 

2 meeting would also be out.

3 So as we look to July. We've got 

4 Fourth of July. We've got a lot of vacations. 

5 We want to try to land on meetings where 

6 everybody can come and if we're picking really 

7 hard to travel months, or months where people 

8 are trying to get away, it's not going to be 

9 good for anybody.

10 And so none of these are great for 

11 everybody, and we really acknowledge that. But 

12 as we look through, and as you kind of parse 

13 through this slide, there are solid reasons for 

14 why the other months of the year were just less 

15 good than April and October. And so I had a 

16 lot of hope that we could meet in January and 

17 July because I'm doing nothing in January and 

18 I'm really doing nothing in July, so that would 

19 be great for me, and then there's reasons that 

20 that doesn't work out.

21 So again, thank you Michelle for 

22 putting this together and thank you to the 
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1 whole board. Because the whole board went 

2 through it, we were pulled, we tried to figure 

3 out for our communities, representing our 

4 communities, what is the best time. And we 

5 ended up rounding back to April and October are 

6 the only best fits. Not great fits, but 

7 they're the best for the options that we have 

8 before us.

9 Jerry.

10 MEMBER D'AMORE: That was a great 1-

11 2-3 rendition of what we came up with, but I'd 

12 still like to do an additional shout out to 

13 Mindee and Michelle and tell you that I as 

14 somebody without a dog in the hunt, I'm at the 

15 point where I'm not -- I really can make things 

16 meet. That the thing that was, it sounds very 

17 simple, but it was so obvious is that we'd 

18 caucus, we'd talk, we'd get one day and say, 

19 God, that really works. 

20 And then you know, and you said

21 this, then you move it up for six months. You 

22 say, oh come on. That's -- it's right in the 
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1 middle of the fiscal year of the US Government.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Exactly.

3 MEMBER D'AMORE: So I guess the only 

4 thing I'd like to add to it again, as somebody 

5 who didn't do any heavy lifting, is I watched a 

6 whole lot of heavy lifting and if anybody 

7 doesn't believe that this was given as good a 

8 shot as we can possibly give, I'll give you my 

9 phone number. Thank you.

10 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate 

11 that very much.

12 Any questions from the board?

13 Kyla, please go ahead.

14 MEMBER SMITH: I don't have any 

15 questions, but I just wanted to say that we 

16 also are listening and heard suggestions 

17 offered that might get at the continued desire 

18 for access, right? So there was the suggestion 

19 of a winter listening session, we you know, 

20 there's -- so keep those solutions coming.

21 Because we certainly you know, just 

22 because we can't make a different timing of the 
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1 meeting work doesn't mean we don't want to hear 

2 from our stakeholders. And so let's figure out 

3 how we get there. And so we certainly are 

4 going to have more discussions around that as a 

5 board and if there are other suggestions, like 

6 please send me an email. I'd like to hear 

7 them.

8 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear.

9 Yeah, Jerry.

10 MEMBER D'AMORE: Sort of 

11 anecdotally, if you want to have a visual that 

12 we're confronted with is that I think for most 

13 of the session this morning we out numbered the 

14 audience. So when we look over there, we know 

15 we've got a problem too.

16 So that's to yours, Kyla. And we 

17 are seeking and listening to what might be 

18 potential solutions. Thank you.

19 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And I do want to 

20 give a shout out to groups who have invited us 

21 to meet with them and to discuss their 

22 concerns, their pain points. We meet twice a 
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1 year, but we have the rest of the year to also 

2 discuss things. And so please don't hesitate 

3 to reach out to anybody on the board about any 

4 topic because we're eager for the input. As I 

5 said, bring your best and brightest ideas. And 

6 whenever you can give them to us, we'll take 

7 them.

8 Any other questions or ideas on this 

9 topic? All right. 

10 Thank you Michelle.

11 We're going to do a few things, so 

12 close your marks, the slide will be up there.

13 Yeah, go ahead Mindee.

14 So we wanted to go around, we heard 

15 a lot about -- coming out of the pandemic, we 

16 went just out of pure necessity to a virtual 

17 meeting format because we had to. And as we 

18 experienced that, I think we had five meetings 

19 fully virtual. And then we started figuring 

20 out what are lessons learned from that 

21 experience?

22 And I want to go around the room and 
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1 get everyone's feelings on this. But for me I 

2 noticed a really pleasant result of the virtual 

3 experience, was folks got time to process what 

4 everyone was saying in public comments. There 

5 was space between when they needed to make the 

6 very hard decision for how they're going to 

7 vote and hearing everything. They had time to 

8 digest, process, communicate, talk to their 

9 fellow board members, and generally just give 

10 themselves space to take on the --

11 I always almost feel like I have a 

12 hangover after public comments because there's 

13 so much information and we want to be paying 

14 attention so carefully. And a lot of it is 

15 like listening to folks' concerns and pain, and 

16 the hardships that are being experienced. 

17 That's internalized for us. We hear that, we 

18 feel that. And getting just a little bit of a 

19 break over the weekend before then we have to 

20 convene and vote, I think it's yielded a very 

21 healthy dialogue amongst all of us.

22 But I'd be interested in everyone 
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1 else's take. So the reason that we've 

2 continued with that gap is a few reasons, as 

3 I've expressed before. One being that it's 

4 worked. It's been a really nice adjustment. 

5 And so learning from the pandemic, this is just 

6 one good thing to come out of the pandemic is 

7 just this realization is that the way we've 

8 done it is not necessarily the best way for the 

9 process.

10 But too, I think talking about 

11 equity really does speak to, how do we give 

12 everyone the fairest shot to have their voices 

13 heard and not elevate anybody over everybody 

14 else. And so the thought of a farmer being 

15 able to call in on three minutes, on Zoom, on 

16 their tractor, with very minimal bandwidth, 

17 very accessible. 

18 And being able to then say, there's 

19 a cutoff, just like in say, public comments for 

20 federal rule making. There's a comment period, 

21 there's a cutoff, and then we wright. And 

22 similar to the board being able to digest all 
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1 of the comments at once, have some space to 

2 think about it, and then go into our decision 

3 making procedure with the live board meeting 

4 has been really nice.

5 But let's start with Allison. What 

6 are your thoughts? How has this experience 

7 been for you?

8 MEMBER JOHNSON: It's unfortunate 

9 being in the first seat. I reflect on my 

10 position as a comment receiver here and a 

11 comment giver in a lot of other contexts. And 

12 I learn from being on both sides of that. And 

13 what I find as a comment receiver is there's 

14 only so much my brain can take in in a given 

15 day.

16 And I have like the pace of our 

17 return to our in-person meetings where we're 

18 together for five or so hours and there's some 

19 spaciousness. It doesn't feel rushed, it 

20 doesn't feel overwhelming. I feel like I'm 

21 able to be present and think through issues 

22 here in the room. And I do worry about trying 
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1 to cram more in.

2 And as a comment giver, I've had 

3 unusual access to DC from California in a way 

4 that was impossible before the pandemic. And I 

5 see that starting to disappear as the return to 

6 in-person is sort of creeping back in. So all 

7 of those things make me lean toward being happy 

8 with the rhythm that we've settled into in 

9 these last two meetings.

10 That said, I'm grateful to those of 

11 you who made it through to the mighty end here, 

12 but the room is looking sparse. And I do think 

13 there is value in coming together as a 

14 community. I feel like I've gotten to know all 

15 of you hear on the board and here in the room 

16 better, getting to have conversations as 

17 people, not being like on a timer or on a 

18 screen. So I guess I'll say my verdict is out 

19 but those are my reflections at this point.

20 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Perfect. Thank 

21 you so much.

22 Brian, please go ahead.
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1 MEMBER CALDWELL: You know, I guess 

2 I'm open to having the virtual comments the 

3 week before and a targeted session within our 

4 in-person meeting for comments. I think the 

5 point was made to me that it's a powerful image 

6 to have a lot of people in this room during our 

7 meeting. It conveys the intense participation 

8 and interest of our stakeholders.

9 So if we go through more years and 

10 we have fewer and fewer people in our live 

11 group here, I think that's not going to be as 

12 strong of a statement as we might like. So I 

13 think that's important.

14 I guess one thing I would say is 

15 that I would really love it if we didn't have 

16 repetitive comments. Like if we have two 

17 sessions the week before and then a third one 

18 here, that we have the same groups with 

19 multiple comments in all those, I would love it 

20 if we could avoid that in some way. But that's 

21 the way I'm looking at it.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I appreciate it. 
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1 Nate.

2 MEMBER LEWIS: Both those comments 

3 resonate with me. I'm generally favorable on 

4 having an in-person comment aspect to the 

5 meetings, but also acknowledge that not having 

6 a rushed meeting or extra-long days makes our 

7 discussion as a board more robust and cohesive. 

8 So I sort of want to try to find the right 

9 balance there. 

10 And I think that the elements of, 

11 sort of equity in terms of access to the board 

12 are relevant. And something that you know, as 

13 the PDS is looking at updates to our policy 

14 manual, the section on public comments and oral 

15 comments could probably use a refresh and try 

16 to incorporate some of the maybe best practices 

17 for board members in terms of how do we ensure 

18 that we don't give more weight to in-person

19 comments versus virtual, or just some 

20 frameworks within which we can think about 

21 those things.

22 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. 
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1 Dilip.

2 MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you. I 

3 started last year on this board and the first 

4 meeting was virtual, the spring 2022. And then 

5 the first in-person meeting in Sacramento and 

6 now. So I do see the big difference, in-person 

7 versus virtual.

8 A lot of things I think I have 

9 previously -- because they have already said, 

10 and I echo what they have already mentioned the 

11 benefits and some of the facts.

12 Face to face makes a big difference 

13 while talking to our stakeholders face to face, 

14 one on one. Even on our networking time, like 

15 we are having a reception, and you're talking 

16 to them. I think these are the great things. 

17 I think the first day, some of us, we went to 

18 the field. Some of us, we could not make it 

19 because we were attending pre NOSB meetings. 

20 So that's something also. Some of 

21 us, we discussed if we do next time, see how 

22 owe can attend a field day also and all those 
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1 things. So yeah. So I think in-person, I would 

2 support that. That's all. Thank you.

3 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

4 Jerry.

5 MEMBER D'AMORE: I'm trying to go 

6 through my own mind on how to answer this and I 

7 wouldn't want to take you on a torturous path 

8 right now.

9 First of all, this question seems 

10 pretty innocent but it's highly personal in 

11 terms of personal preferences. So I'll say 

12 this to begin with is that I get more out of 

13 stakeholder comments, both oral and written, 

14 than anything else I do. I cherish them. I 

15 wait for Michelle to press the button where it 

16 comes over and I can start slicing and dicing.

17 Another comment that has impressed 

18 me just in the last two weeks. Our oral 

19 session gave me great hope that we can really 

20 engage, really talk to each other, and not be 

21 obnoxious with each other.

22 I've lived -- this is my -- I'm 
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1 winding down into my fourth year here. Some of 

2 the earlier oral, virtual oral, I didn't enjoy. 

3 I mean it was just pretty you know -- but this 

4 time around, people got up, they talked, 

5 opposing views, and I didn't notice one thing 

6 that was out of order in terms of behavior.

7 So where do I stand? I'll give you 

8 my third example here and that's talking to 

9 somebody in this room that it really resonated 

10 with me. So you've got the Zoom, and then 

11 you've got the interactive Zoom virtual oral, 

12 and then you've got what we've got here. I can 

13 tell you that I am so bummed that for three 

14 nights I wasn't out there with you and just the 

15 ability to get face to face right here and 

16 really interact, it's -- to use a word that's 

17 not horribly masculine, it's precious to me.

18 And I had one person look at me and 

19 we sort of had this conversation. He said, 

20 yeah this is -- it's a progression -- this is 

21 what you need to do, because I was complaining 

22 about the population on the other side of the 
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1 room which dwindled a lot. And the other 

2 person said, if you want to rectify that, get 

3 in our face more. Make this more interactive 

4 on an annual basis.

5 So that's my rambling, thank you.

6 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I appreciate it.

7 One question I have for Dilip real 

8 quick, on your questions. I think that the 

9 idea of meeting in-person is not on the table. 

10 We're definitely always going to be, as long as 

11 pandemic allows it, meeting in person.

12 Were you saying that you support an 

13 in-person meeting, or in-person comments?

14 MEMBER NANDWANI: In-person 

15 meetings.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Thank 

17 you.

18 Kyla.

19 MEMBER SMITH: I mean, I just sort 

20 of want to say ditto. Because I think 

21 everybody sort of reflected what I'm thinking 

22 about. I have been on the audience side of the 
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1 table pre-pandemic, but I don't think any of us 

2 sitting around this table have experienced in3 person comments as a board member. And so I 

4 don't know. It's just interesting, right, that

5 we are all bringing our experience of only 

6 having ever had virtual comments.

7 So the equity piece is compelling to 

8 me. I do like that it is an equal opportunity 

9 for everybody. I totally agree with sort of 

10 the mental health aspects as a board member to 

11 give myself time to soak in the vast amounts of 

12 comments, written and oral, that we hear the 

13 week before.

14 To reach out to fellow board 

15 members, to reach out to commentors, it like 

16 gives me that space, gives me time to reflect. 

17 I definitely was able to do that in particular 

18 with you know, resins where I was feeling a 

19 particular, like I wasn't quite understanding 

20 one particular commentor's thing and then I had 

21 this space and time to reflect upon it and it 

22 landed quite differently than me -- and had we 
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1 had to turn around and had to go straight to a 

2 vote in a shorter amount of time, I'm not sure 

3 I would have landed there.

4 And you know, nothing is preventing 

5 people from showing up and sitting in the 

6 audience and engaging with us in other 

7 opportunities. That's a choice that you all 

8 made, that are sitting here in the room with us 

9 today. I do acknowledge and understand that 

10 for someone to make the trip it's more 

11 compelling to be able to tack that on to an in12 person comment, but I would argue that I have 

13 better connections, and learn more from you all 

14 in the hallway and at the other, you know at 

15 the receptions and things like that than I do 

16 just in the three minute comment space.

17 So I'm not opposed because you know, 

18 I have not experienced in-person comments as a 

19 board member, so I'm certainly not opposed to 

20 it and you know, for all the reasons that I've 

21 mentioned, I think I lean a little bit towards 

22 keeping it as it is but anyway. Thanks.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

2 Amy. 

3 MEMBER BURCH: Yeah. Thanks Nate. 

4 This is -- I'm glad we're able to do this. 

5 This is, I think, a really important 

6 conversation to have. This is really important 

7 to the community. I sit in a farmer seat. I 

8 feel a large responsibility to represent the 

9 farmer voice in this conversation and the 

10 farmer voice does appear to be split. 

11 We've heard through the process that 

12 efficiency is really important. Heard from 

13 some oral commentors, it is nice to call in 

14 from the tractor, have that availability. But 

15 we also heard from farmers that were really 

16 sincere in saying, "I want to be present in the 

17 process. And that really resonates with me to.

18 As a farmer, to tackle problems, we 

19 use multiple modes of action. So potentially, 

20 we need to look at this as what are we trying 

21 to be, or when we define equity, what is it. 

22 If we define equity with accessibility, that 
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1 might be a different way to look at this. 

2 Multiple modes of action. When we looked at 

3 the gentleman that spoke about the NASS survey, 

4 farmers respond in very different ways. We

5 respond via the phone, we respond via the 

6 internet, we respond via the mail to answer the 

7 same question.

8 So maybe access needs to be looked 

9 at and defined for equity, not necessarily 

10 having one mode of action. So I really 

11 marinated on this whole topic as well and again 

12 trying to take my own personal views out of the 

13 equation and just try to understand what the 

14 farmers are telling me.

15 So that was really important and 

16 then kind of my third point is just that we're 

17 stronger together as a community. So I think 

18 we really need to be able to have compromise 

19 potentially in this situation because we have a 

20 lot of challenges ahead of us and we need to be 

21 able to tackle those challenges together. So 

22 we're definitely listening to all comments on 
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1 this situation. Thank you.

2 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I just want to 

3 reflect real quick on one point Jerry made, 

4 that it appears sparse. But a few stats on 

5 this week, that we had 92 people on Zoom on the 

6 first day. We've averaged about 73 across the 

7 three days. And that's 93 flights that were 

8 not taken. That's 93 folks who will stay on 

9 their farm and do their work. And I think 

10 that's just -- we don't get to see that, so 

11 just to add a little bit of color to who's 

12 watching and paying and essentially 

13 participating.

14 Mindee.

15 VICE CHAIR JEFFREY: Thank you. I 

16 tend to interview things before I do them 

17 because I understand how my brain works and how 

18 my energy works and I'm pretty sensitive. And 

19 so I went to an NOSB meeting to find out 

20 whether I was capable of living in this 

21 context. And the in-person public comments 

22 were a level of interpersonal energy violence 
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1 that I was shocked by. Honestly, like I was 

2 like, I can't live in that context.

3 I realized it was a pretty intense 

4 meeting and there was an orchestrated 

5 filibuster of public commentors and so it was a 

6 little bit of an extreme example. But also 

7 like, I'm glad I got to sit in that example 

8 because when I chose to do this, I chose really 

9 consciously what I was going to put myself 

10 through and grappled with that before I chose 

11 to do this.

12 And so I'm very comfortable in the 

13 process that we're in right now as a board 

14 member because I need to think a lot about the 

15 process because I don't live in this process 

16 every day. As a retailer, I'm not looking at 

17 606 and I have to really think my way through 

18 things carefully to understand what I'm 

19 choosing and so I love the time to study and I 

20 love the time to like email someone and ask a 

21 question and like, get really clear about it 

22 within myself and really make sure I'm tracking 
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1 process well so that I can be great at my job.

2 So that said, my personal preference 

3 is the way we're doing it now. I'm very 

4 compelled by the public comments. I'm very 

5 compelled by the politics of presence and what 

6 that means for organics future and what that 

7 means for transparency. Because I see really 

8 clearly that people who might like organic 

9 don't understand the beauty of this process, 

10 and the level of engagement, and what 

11 public/private can mean in democracy and how we 

12 can show that.

13 And so I do think that we need 

14 people in this room to gain that understanding, 

15 to show that to people. Because the power of 

16 democracy is the thing I love the most about 

17 what I get to do right now. And so for me, I'm 

18 very willing to compromise towards in-person 

19 public comments if I feel like we as a group 

20 are really capable of grappling with that. And 

21 that might be agenda oriented. 

22 So if the fall meeting is really 
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1 intense and we have a lot of votes and we have 

2 big subject matters and we're sitting clearly 

3 and strongly as a group, and we can add that 

4 extra level of intensity to our process then 

5 I'm going to advocate for the compromise 

6 towards in-person comments. And maybe that 

7 might be the spring meeting because it might be 

8 a little less intense as far as agenda and

9 votes are concerned. 

10 But just so you know, thank you for 

11 causing us to continue to grapple with this and 

12 I will advocate for a compromise in the 

13 direction of folks asking for more in-person 

14 comments and we'll try to do that thoughtfully 

15 within what we're capable of.

16 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

17 Kim. 

18 MEMBER HUSEMAN: That's hard to 

19 follow. To not to repeat what I agree with on 

20 so many of my fellow board member's comments. 

21 I'll try to just pepper in a few additional 

22 items of consideration as I've thought about 
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1 this.

2 Kyla had mentioned in our last 

3 meeting that this is like CSPAN. It's not the 

4 most riveting meeting and to sit through three 

5 days of this from the other side, I've been 

6 there, I was there in Pittsburgh. It does have 

7 a different feel to it. But applaud and 

8 appreciate everyone who is here today, both 

9 online and in the audience.

10 We as a board, have tried to 

11 redefine this, you know the comments of equity 

12 and one of the things that I -- because I was 

13 throwing out different places to go for the 

14 meetings. Because Denver's fantastic. If we 

15 could just do it every year in Denver, that 

16 would be great for me.

17 But I don't think that a dairy 

18 farmer from the Northeast might find Denver to 

19 be easy to get to or our next meeting is 

20 actually in Rhode Island. My expectation is 

21 that unfortunately, the wine community from 

22 California is probably not going to bring us 
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1 their sulfite free or their potassium as much 

2 as we've tried to influence this.

3 But the movement of the meetings to 

4 try to -- you know, we had George Organics 

5 give us some very thoughtful and eye opening 

6 aspects to what the Southeast region is doing. 

7 So by moving the meetings from one region to 

8 another, my thought and hope is that helps to 

9 create the inclusion.

10 I'd like to try to find a way that 

11 we can either be regionally pooling or you 

12 know, ask the community what other ways outside 

13 of public comment can we help to increase the 

14 stakeholder involvement? Again, everyone has 

15 said the same things that I would echo so I'm 

16 not going to spend time on that. 

17 But my question back to the 

18 community would be, outside of public comment 

19 how -- that's three minutes of somebody 

20 standing up and talking and then getting back 

21 on their airplane -- how can we have more 

22 involvement from the community at the meetings. 
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1 How can we be accessible at the meetings face 

2 to face? Where you actually get to interact 

3 instead of when someone's maybe slightly 

4 uncomfortable with the topic, just hide behind 

5 their computer, wait for me to finish and then 

6 --

7 Or, that's my ask to the community. 

8 If we were to say, okay public comment may not 

9 be that connector. What would be? And I'm 

10 going to leave it at that and say that I'm not 

11 going to answer the question.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. I would 

13 just real quick echo that. That I think that 

14 again, there's so many days of the year that we 

15 could be hearing from you all and we're not. 

16 And we could be having conversations at these 

17 meetings and how do we increase that 

18 opportunity? How do we have -- and again, I 

19 would throw out that for example, Amy and I met 

20 with the OEFFA Grain Growers. And just got to 

21 hear what's on their mind. And there was just 

22 an invitation.
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1 I think a lot of us are eager for 

2 those invitations to understand how we can be 

3 thinking and ideating together more than just 

4 two times a year.

5 Franklin, please go ahead.

6 MEMBER QUARCOO: This was my first 

7 NOSB meeting, so mine is not an informed 

8 perspective. I have no basis for comparison. 

9 But when we look at the equity issue, so the 

10 virtual session, we need that so folks can 

11 always participate. But the in-person session 

12 is great. There are people who communicate 

13 better that way. 

14 I like meeting people so if there is 

15 a way we can have both of them. I don't know 

16 what the logistics, what the implications are 

17 but it doesn't look like an either/or situation 

18 for me. I don't know how it works, whether we 

19 select one day, one question from somebody in20 person, one from virtual or if it's a different 

21 day. I don't know how it works. But if we are 

22 trying to increase participation, let's have 
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1 multiple means by which people communicate with 

2 us.

3 We look at the equity issue and if 

4 we just go virtual and we keep it that way, is 

5 that going to effect even the number we are 

6 looking at, is that going to bring it down 

7 further? If it brings it down further, we as a 

8 board might just do everything online if the 

9 participation --

10 So I think it shouldn't be an 

11 either/or situation, how do we get both parts 

12 of this oral comment sessions in?

13 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. I'm 

14 always surprised at how many breakfast, lunch, 

15 and dinners board members do not receive 

16 invitations from audience members to go out and 

17 chat. And I think it's a skill to you know, 

18 ask someone to you know, chat and network. 

19 It's a skill I think our community really 

20 should exercise because there's a lot of time 

21 in the day even outside of these sessions that 

22 we could be having meetings and talking about 
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1 things. 

2 And I think I've heard from several 

3 people here today saying, with a smaller crowd

4 a lot of you have gotten to talk to every 

5 single one else of you. And that itself is 

6 probably almost a bigger value proposition than 

7 just getting to stand at a microphone for three 

8 minutes. So that off to the side networking I 

9 think is a huge opportunity.

10 Logan.

11 MEMBER PETREY: So right now we're 

12 looking at a lot of agenda's that were prior to 

13 the pandemic. And in 2018 I saw that there was 

14 actually call-ins that were a week prior that 

15 were on Tuesday and Thursday and then there was 

16 in-person meetings on I think Tuesday maybe 

17 after the introductions. 

18 And so there was already kind of 

19 this outreach for the community it seemed like. 

20 I don't know, you guys have a lot more -- or 

21 some of these people have a lot more experience 

22 than me. So there was already kind of looking 
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1 at that.

2 I don't think that we can ever drop 

3 the virtual comment section because that is 

4 going to just close that out and I don't think 

5 that we need to. I think that we also have a 

6 value -- that we understand the value of having 

7 those people. And so far as saying well in8 person is going to be a different outcome than 

9 the call-in, I think that we can see through 

10 that. We already know that's valuable. So I 

11 don't know that that's necessarily something 

12 that we need to worry about.

13 But I think we need to try the in14 person. A lot of people in the past have said 

15 that it's important and I think for us to just 

16 ignore that is probably not fair. It's not 

17 wise of us to do. But we also are in a spot 

18 where we still have some time on the board. We 

19 can experience it, see what it looks like and 

20 if it doesn't have value then we can change but 

21 we're not going to have any idea unless we know 

22 and experience it.
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1 As far as accessibility, we did talk 

2 about the listening session in the winter. 

3 Just curious, what about the summer prior to 

4 going into the fall? You all might be saying, 

5 no we don't need any work in between the two. 

6 But that might be a time where maybe their 

7 voice, they feel like it's heard more if it's 

8 right before the votes and most of that is 

9 going into the fall.

10 And then as far as attendance, you 

11 know, it's been great, but you can look -- I 

12 was looking at the charts and when you have 

13 Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, all the X's 

14 that are on Monday and then it kind of fades. 

15 And I think that's typical for any conference. 

16 You're going to get people that have to leave, 

17 or you know, that do that. So I think that's 

18 going to be normal no matter what, we're going 

19 to see that consistently.

20 But the relationships that are built 

21 at breakfast, lunch, dinner. And board members 

22 have to invite themselves sometimes. Sometimes 
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1 you have to just go in the lobby and you just 

2 are going to go with folks. But being able to 

3 have that, I feel much more comfortable at just 

4 being able to call somebody up and asking them. 

5 You know, they're in the community or the 

6 stakeholders for help. So I do like that. 

7 And if that in-person comment 

8 section brings more people in that to open our 

9 availability up that it's absolutely worth it. 

10 So thank you.

11 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

12 Carolyn.

13 MEMBER DIMITRI: As the second to 

14 last person, because I know you still have to 

15 speak Nate, I really have nothing to add except 

16 I really like the virtual comment. It gives me 

17 -- I actually have a research assistant that 

18 takes notes so I'm sure that I hear everything 

19 that I need to hear. And if we want to add an 

20 in-person comment section, that would be fine 

21 too. I'll go along with whatever the group 

22 wants.
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1 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

2 MEMBER DIMITRI: If I had the money, 

3 I'd bring him really. But I can't.

4 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well I really 

5 appreciate you all engaging in this process. 

6 We want to try to always improve and see what 

7 we can do to serve the community better, and I 

8 think that this discussion does nothing but add 

9 to that process. 

10 For me I think there's a certain 

11 amount of accounting that, again I've never 

12 been on the board during a public comment 

13 period but whatever we're doing, it seems to be 

14 working in a way. That we have a board that 

15 really trusts each other.

16 When I look back and I was just kind 

17 of scrolling some previous minutes, there's a 

18 lot of disfunction. We are -- I mean to put it 

19 lightly -- and we are super functional now. We 

20 have everybody, I think on a really 

21 interpersonally healthy basis, able to talk and 

22 trust each other. And why that is, we might 
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1 have just landed with a bunch of nice folks. 

2 And I know for one, I am really grateful for 

3 all of you. 

4 But I think that when we look 

5 through whatever has lead to this point in the 

6 board, trying to figure it out, trying to 

7 figure out how we pick out the best path so 

8 that we can keep this going. So that we are 

9 able to have, in ten years, a board that 

10 continuously trusts itself and has built up 

11 this culture of trust and respect and really 

12 just a brilliant sense of earnest respect for 

13 the whole process, for each other, for our 

14 farmers, for our constituents.

15 And so I'm always just curious as to 

16 the "why". How did we get here and did this 

17 comment process as it exists, as it might 

18 change, how can we influence it for the better? 

19 And I don't have the answer to that, but I 

20 think just asking that question, I feel like 

21 we've landed in a really great spot right now 

22 and how can we keep that going. So thanks for 
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1 the discussion everybody. 

2 And with that, I think I'm going to 

3 hand it over to Jenny.

4 DR. TUCKER: Okay. I have a few 

5 comments. I do realize we're about 20 minutes 

6 over. Are they going to kick us out of the 

7 room, or can we keep going for a little bit? 

8 Great.

9 First I want to have all of us give 

10 a huge round of applause to Nate. I think he's 

11 done a beautiful job here and does a beautiful 

12 job as your Chair. This board is remarkably 

13 special, and that conversation was just really 

14 cool to listen to.

15 You know, for the first time looking 

16 around the room, I realize that I was the one 

17 that called every single one of you to appoint 

18 to the board and now that I think about it, 

19 every time I hung up I thought, oh that will be 

20 a really nice person to have on the board. And 

21 so the fact that you are now all around the 

22 room kind of agreeing, wow we're really nice 
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1 people. 

2 It's really -- that's very, very 

3 special to have listened to you as individuals 

4 with such shock and surprise and honor to join 

5 to board to now be shaping what it is for the 

6 future is just really incredible to see so I 

7 cherish that relationship and collaboration 

8 that you have built together. 

9 And as Nate opened the meeting with, 

10 you've done it on some really difficult 

11 circumstances. You have been -- you had a 

12 member, as Nate said right up front, really 

13 graciously decide that this was not -- it just 

14 wasn't the right time, it just wasn't the right 

15 time. 

16 You have another member who is not 

17 here today and who I know that there has been 

18 some challenges in managing workload. You had 

19 a couple of team members who just joined, so 

20 there's a little bit of a gap. So this room 

21 has taken on extra work and we at the program 

22 are very, very grateful for that. But the way 
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1 you have supported each other is just really 

2 deserving of applause.

3 So I think all of us, if you are on 

4 Zoom, there were like 50 folks or something on 

5 Zoom, if you could do the Zoom applause, we can 

6 see you. And then in the room let's give this 

7 group a big hand. You folks have covered your 

8 responsibilities and duties to your community 

9 with just beautifully and with tremendous 

10 grace.

11 As we look to the future and future 

12 nominations to the board, future self13 nominations to the board, do listen to this 

14 group and kind of what they're doing and what 

15 they need to be successful and consider who you 

16 want to put forward to be on the board as who 

17 could join this group in a way that continues 

18 to lift us up as a community while doing the 

19 really, really hard technical work.

20 So it's an honor to have listened to 

21 you today. It's also an honor to be able to 

22 give our new members, I don't think we've done 
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1 this part before, the process has changed a 

2 little bit in USDA and then we had a pandemic 

3 and now we have two members for the first time 

4 where we can give you your plaques right here 

5 in the room.

6 And so I have here the certificate 

7 of appointment for Dr. Franklin Quarcoo, and it 

8 says, "With appreciation for accepting the call 

9 to serve the nation and the United States 

10 Department of Agriculture as a member of the 

11 National Organic Standards Board." And it's 

12 signed by the Secretary of Agriculture, Tom 

13 Vilsack. So do you want to come over and get 

14 yours? And Nate's says the same thing.

15 Thank you. We'll take a picture in 

16 just a second here. Can you hold it? Okay. 

17 And this one is also the Certificate of 

18 Appointment for Nathaniel Lewis. It says the 

19 same thing, also signed by the secretary. So 

20 we'll get up and take a picture here of our new 

21 members. I'm so happy to have you guys here. 

22 All right. So thank you.
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1 And so I think with those thanks and 

2 with the deepest appreciation to the board I 

3 also want to extend my thanks and appreciation 

4 to the NOP team who worked behind the scenes 

5 all week to make this all happen. It is an 

6 honor to work with you every single day. And 

7 with that I think we close. Let's give them a 

8 hand. Thank you. 

9 And with that, do you have your 

10 gavel? Are you ready to go? I think we 

11 officially close the meeting.

12 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We are ready to 

13 adjourn.

14 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

15 matter went off the record at 1:25 p.m.)

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