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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

PUBLIC COMMENT WEBINAR

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

OCTOBER 18, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met via Video 

Teleconference, at 12:00 p.m. EDT, Nathaniel 

Powell-Palm, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: 

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFREY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

CAROLYN DIMITRI

GERARD D'AMORE

LIZ GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

WOOD TURNER
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NOP STAFF PRESENT: 

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

DAVID GLASGOW, NOP Associate Deputy

Administrator

ERIN HEALY, Division Director Standards

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist

DEVON PATTILLO, Agricultural Marketing

Specialist
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

12:00 p.m.

MS. ARSENAULT: So welcome everybody 

to the first day of the National Organic 

Standards Board meeting. This is the start of 

the public comment webinars, which will be today 

and Thursday, not next Thursday, this Thursday. 

I'm going to start the recording so we 

will be recording the webinar just so you know, 

and we will also have a tran -- we have a 

transcriptionist with us on the call. So we'll 

have a transcript of the entire meeting, the two 

public comment webinars and next week's in-person 

meeting. The transcripts will be posted on the 

website after the conclusion of the meeting.

So if you're online, you should see an 

instruction slide. If you're on the phone only 

I'm going to give a brief overview of what you 

can't see. So we ask that you please stay on 

mute to minimize background noise, and if you 

hover somewhere over your Zoom screen, you should 
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NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1716 14TH ST., N.W., STE 200

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com

be able to see your mic and video camera on the 

task bar on the left side.

Chat is enabled in Zoom, but chats are 

not part of the public record, so while we want 

you to say hello to each other and chat amongst 

yourselves, the Board won't be answering comments 

in the chat and again, they won't be part of the 

public record. Closed captioning is available 

in Zoom, so again if you hover somewhere over 

your Zoom screen, my task bar is at the bottom.

You'll see the closed captioning 

button. It says "CC Live Transcript," and you 

can control it for your own view. So you can 

turn it on or off as needed. You can also change 

the font size if you need bigger or smaller, and 

then you'll also see next to the live 

transcription button the reactions button, the 

raise hand features in there.

We ask that you please don't raise 

your hand. All commenters are registered ahead 

of time, and will be called on in turn by the 
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Board chair when it's your turn to speak. You 

can also customize your own view in Zoom. You 

can rearrange what you see on your personal 

screen by going to the upper right-hand corner of 

Zoom. You should see a checker box that says 

"view," and you can add a gallery view or a 

speaker view.

We're going to spotlight the speaker 

timer for everyone, so that should remain on your 

screen no matter what view you're using, and then 

we'll highlight as well the Board chair and the 

speaker who is talking at the moment. If you're 

having any technical problems, you can visit 

support.zoom.us. They're very helpful and 

usually pretty responsive, or what always works 

is log out and log back in.

So the webinar again is being 

recorded, and we'll get the transcript posted to 

the website as soon as it's available. So 

speakers, thank you Jared. You're way ahead of 

me. Please make sure that the name and your 
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video title is correct so we can locate you when 

it's your turn to speak. 

Sometimes we need to find you in the 

list to make sure that you're muted or unmuted, 

and you can also rename yourself by clicking the 

upper right ellipses in your video title. Or if 

you find yourself in the participant list, you 

hover where you should see a "more" button that 

will allow you to rename yourself as well. You 

can also control your mic from that, those other 

places as well in the participant list.

Do keep an eye on the chatbox. If 

you're scheduled to speak and we can't find you 

in the list of participants, we may send you a 

note asking you to identify yourself. If you're 

calling in on the television, Zoom will know to 

name you and I will have it as your full number. 

So you stay on mute until it's your 

turn to comment. When you're called, you can 

then unmute yourself and turn your camera on if 

you want, it's optional. You don't have to be 
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on camera. Again, both the mic and camera are 

on the bottom left-hand side of the Zoom task bar 

under the ellipses, or as I recently learned, 

it's also called the meatballs, the three dots 

next to each other.

And if you're on the phone only and 

don't mute button, you *6 to toggle between mute 

and unmute. All right. Now I am going to turn 

the mic over to the National Organic Program 

Deputy Administrator Jennifer Tucker. Jenny.

MS. TUCKER: Okay, good morning or 

good afternoon, depending on where you are, and 

thank you very, very much Michelle. Hi everyone. 

I am Jennifer Tucker, Deputy Administrator of the 

National Organic Program. Welcome to all of our 

National Organic Standards Board members and to 

our audience today.

This fall meeting is our first 

experiment in returning to a hybrid model, where 

we will do public comments today on Thursday, and 

then an in-person meeting next week in 
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Sacramento, California. Our intent is to 

livestream that meeting for those who cannot 

attend the in-person.

As we look ahead and as we reflect on 

the past two and a half years, I am grateful for 

many, many things. I'm grateful that we've had 

several years of experience in online comments 

before COVID, so we were able to quickly 

translate, transition to an online environment. 

I am grateful for this Board that has 

worked so well together without actually having 

met in person for so long. I am grateful for 

this community that continues to engage on the 

tough issues, and I am so grateful for the team 

at the National Organic Program who worked 

tirelessly to bring us all together, to uphold 

the process and to advance the work that comes 

out of these meetings.

To our public commenters, thank you 

for again engaging in this process with us. I 

also thank our audience. You continue to be an 
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important part of this public meeting process, 

and we're glad that you're here. Let's pause for 

a virtual pause to acknowledge this moment. If 

you're new, we wave two hands in our iCamera for 

virtual applause, and I want to again thank all 

of you. That's how. Again, we wave into the 

camera to clap.

Next week, we're going to take a 

special moment to clap in live person and hear 

ourselves do that for the first time in three 

years. 

This meeting, like other meetings of 

the National Organic Standards Board, will be run 

based on the Federal Advisory Committee Act and 

the Board's Policy and Procedures Manual. 

Meeting access information for all meeting 

segments is posted on the NOSB meeting page on 

the USDA/AMS website.

Transcripts for all segments will be 

posted once completed. I will act as the 

Designated Federal Officer for all meeting 
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segments. Nate Powell-Palm, our Board chair, 

will take the helm for this session. 

As I noted at the start of the last 

NOSB meeting, in an open and transparent process 

mutual respect is critical. We ask you in 

advance to avoid personal attacks and 

disparagement. Please engage with grace, both 

when you speak into the mic and when you chat 

into the chatbox. To close, I thank the National 

Organic Program team, an amazing team that I'm 

honored work with each day. 

Michelle, big applause for Michelle, 

who does so much logistical work to bring us 

together, and who really takes care of this 

Board. I also want to thank Jared Clark, Andrea 

Holm, Devon Pattillo, David Glasgow and our 

Standards director, Erin Healy. Let's give them 

a big round of applause. Thank you so much.

I'm now going to hand the mic back to 

Michelle Arsenault, who is our Advisory Board 

specialist, who will do a roll call of NOSB 
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members and NOP staff. Thank you very much.

MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you, Jenny. 

All right. Board, Nate Powell-Palm.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Present, good 

morning everyone.

MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning. Mindee 

Jeffery? Thank you. Hi Mindee, welcome. Kyla 

Smith.

MEMBER SMITH: I'm here, hello 

everybody.

MS. ARSENAULT: I need to change my 

view. I can't see all of you. Amy Bruch.

MEMBER BRUCH: Good morning, present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning. Brian 

Caldwell.

MEMBER CALDWELL: I'm here, present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Brian. Jerry 

D'Amore.

MEMBER D'MORE: Here as well, thank 

you.

MS. ARSENAULT: Jerry. Carolyn 
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Dimitri.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Good afternoon.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Carolyn, welcome. 

Liz Graznak.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes, I'm here, good 

morning.

MS. ARSENAULT: I finally heard Liz 

say her own name out loud, and I've been 

pronouncing it wrong all this time.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: That's okay.

MS. ARSENAULT: There you go, Liz. 

Thank you. Rick Greenwood.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Welcome Rick. Kim 

Huseman.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hello.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Kim. Welcome, 

good morning. Allison Johnson.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Good morning.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Allison. Dilip 

Nandwani.
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MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning, 

present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning. Logan 

Petrey.

MEMBER PETREY: Hi. Good morning, 

present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hi Logan. Wood 

Turner. Oh no, Wood's frozen. We see him.

MEMBER TURNER: Here, present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Oh, there you go. I 

heard you Wood, thanks. Your camera's frozen, 

by the way. So you can turn it off if you're 

having bandwidth issues, and that goes for 

everyone on the Zoom. Last but not least, Javier 

Zamora. I see your title Javier, but you're on 

mute. Oh there, you're unmuted now. All right. 

Well for the record, Javier is here on the call 

with us. 

All right, and we also have several 

staff members on, Jenny on the call with us, but 

Jenny already introduced them. So now I'm going 
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to hand off the mic to Nate Powell-Palm, chair of 

the NOSB, to get us started. Nate.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you 

Michelle, and hello everybody. So excited for 

this meeting and even more excited to see many of 

you next week in person. A little bit of a 

reminder on our Policy and Procedures Manual 

about public comments. 

So all speakers will be recognized for 

-- or who signed up during the registration 

period, and persons must give their names and 

affiliations for the record at the beginning of 

their public comments. Proxy speakers are not 

permitted.

Individuals providing public comment 

shall refrain from making any personal attacks or 

remarks that might impugn the character of any 

individual. And so I just want to say one quick 

thing on this. I've been reflecting on this a 

bit this last week.

When you go to Gallery mode on this 
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call, you're going to see the face of or the name 

of everybody on the call. These are team mates, 

folks. When we look around the problems of this 

world, these are the folks who are all pulling 

together in the same direction. So I wanted us 

just to remember that when we go through our 

comments, thinking about how are we solving the 

problems that we're eager to solve together, and 

who is working towards that goal, and that is 

absolutely everyone in this room.

Minor disagreements maybe, but 

overall we're all on the same team. So I want 

us just to try to remember that as we're going 

through today.

Members of the public are asked to 

define clearly and succinctly the issues they 

wish to present before the Board. This will give 

our members, NOSB, a comprehensive understanding 

of the speaker's concerns. I'll call on speakers 

in the order of the schedule, and we'll announce 

the next person or two so they can prepare. 
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Please remember to state your name and 

affiliation, and then we'll start the timer.

Board members will indicate to me if 

they have questions and I will call on them. 

Only NOSB members are allowed to ask questions. 

I would reiterate that once more. Please refrain 

from asking questions to the Board. In response, 

you may answer a question, but our Board members 

are the ones asking questions today.

So to get kicked off, our first 

speaker is going to be Kiki Hubbard, and we're 

going --

MS. ARSENAULT: Hey Nate, can I 

interrupt you just one second? Can we test the 

timer? I'm sorry, I forgot to add that, that I 

had it set for five seconds now. It should be 

spotlighted in, thank you. I think maybe I've 

just unspotted for myself when somebody spotted 

me. All right. So it should be on screen 

spotlighted for everyone, and I'm going to start 

it and make sure you guys can all hear it.
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Good, loud enough.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One of the most 

polite timers there is, definitely loud enough.

MS. ARSENAULT: Okay, excellent. 

Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. So 

first up will be Kiki Hubbard, followed by 

Russell Taylor and then Amalie Lipstreu. Any 

questions from the Board before we get started 

here? 

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So 

first up is Kiki Hubbard. Kiki, please say your 

name and affiliation, and the floor is yours.

MS. HUBBARD: Thanks so much Nate. 

Hello everyone. It's so nice to see you all. 

I'm Kiki Hubbard, director of Advocacy and 

Communications for Organic Seed Alliance. My 

comments will focus on the Materials 

Subcommittee's work on excluded methods, as well 

as the organic seed requirement. 
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As many of you know, OSA has long been 

supportive of the Subcommittee's work on excluded 

method, including supporting the proposals that 

the Board has passed on the topic to date. We 

strongly support the Board's recommendation that 

the NOP develop a formal guidance to include the 

definitions and criteria, as well as the excluded 

and allowed methods tables that have been 

developed in previous proposals.

I think we can all agree that 

understanding and addressing (audio 

interference) techniques that may or may not 

align with the excluded methods definition is 

critical work, and that the lack of clarity risks 

slowing progress toward another organic integrity 

goal, which is to plant more organic seed on 

organic land.

This is an important point of context 

for the excluded methods conversation because 

regulating these methods is more feasible within 

the confines of certified organic seed production 
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than it is within the conventional seed space. 

As long as growers are sourcing conventional 

seed that is produced outside the rules of 

certified organic production, it will continue to 

be difficult to require transparency regarding 

the methods behind the seed organic growers are 

using.

As OSA shared at the NOSB spring 

meeting, our most recent state of organic seed 

data shows no meaningful improvement in organic 

producers using more organic seed over the last 

15 years. 

This data makes clear that improvement 

in organic seed sourcing is not happening without 

regulatory changes, even though organic seed 

availability has increased tremendously since the 

NOP was established 20 years ago. It's time that 

policy follows suit to protect this progress and 

ensure organic farmers plant more organic seed. 

We also recommend that the NOSB and 

NOP establish a working group on organic seed. 
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The purpose of this group would be to begin 

discussing a time line for crop by crop 

evaluations of organic seed availability, and 

understanding availability by crop type will 

provide the NOP confidence in eventually closing 

the exemption for non-organic seed, without 

leaving organic growers in a lurch.

Finally, we hope NOP will make organic 

seed a rulemaking priority, given the strong 

support across the organic community for updating 

the organic seed requirement per the NOSB's 2018 

recommendation. 

We hope to see the excluded methods 

recommendations made a priority as well. Thank 

you for your time, and we look forward to the 

conversation next week, where we'll receive an 

update on the Board's important work around 

excluded methods.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

Kiki. I appreciate you commenting today. Any 

questions from the Board? Amy, please go ahead.
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MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, thank you Nate. 

Kiki, thank you so much for joining us for the 

comment period, and really appreciate these 

comments on organic seed and it tie-in with 

excluded methods. I was just curious. 

Since our program is a global program 

and we have many certifiers that have certifying 

agencies overseas as well, internationally and 

domestic, do you believe that it's possible to 

start obtaining global data on organic seed usage 

as well?

MS. HUBBARD: I do. It will take a 

concerted effort and willingness among seed 

companies to be transparent with their data 

regarding commercial availability of organic 

seed. I do, but it -- yeah. Again, it will have 

to be a concerted effort. I think iPhone could 

play an important part in that work. 

But yeah, it's absolutely necessary in 

order to make quicker progress toward ensuring 

that more organic land is vented to organic seed, 
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because currently as you know, we don't have a 

reliable, comprehensive organic seed database 

that both growers and certifiers and inspectors 

can rely on.

MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Kiki.

MS. HUBBARD: Yeah, thank you Amy.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Kiki? 

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

you so much, Kiki. Appreciate your comment.

MS. HUBBARD: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comment. Next up we have Russell Taylor, 

followed by Amalie Lipstreu, and then Abby 

youngblood.

MR. TAYLOR: Good morning. I can't 

see the slides on the screen that are going to be 

presented.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: They should be, 

yes.
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MS. ARSENAULT: Just one second for 

us to get them up and projected. There we go. 

And again for those of you on the call, once we 

start showing slides it takes over your whole 

screen. You can go to the view button in the 

upper right and exit full screen, and then you 

can resize it as needed.

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you. My name is 

Russell Taylor. I'm the president of Humic 

Products Trade Association. We're an 

international association of humic acid 

manufacturers. Humic substances covers a large 

category of products which are the end results of 

decomposition. So this would be really, really 

old plaque matter that's fully decomposed.

First slide, please. So our intended 

to comment on the Subcommittee regarding their 

comments towards the Organic Food Protection Act, 

but certainly had little or no comments regarding 

the synthetic use of the ingredient, which is 

encouraging. 
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The initial problems with the humic 

substances which were concerning is fortifying 

these humic substances and humic acids with the 

extractant, and there was no concerns whether the 

-- they were synthetic use or fortification.

So the primary concerns by the Crop 

Subcommittee were includability. You see a lack 

of standardization for substances on the market, 

resulting subproducts that produce minimal or no 

results. 

So next slide, please. I'd like to 

comment on these two items, first of all the lack 

of standardization. The Humic Product Trade 

Association was integral in creating and 

developing ISO 19822. It's an international 

standard for testing humic and folic acids in 

fertilizer products.

This is a child of the Lamar, which is 

the AOAC/FWC listed there. The seal you see on 

this screen here is the Humic Product Trade 

Association method, a seal in association with 
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these methods. Now these methods are endorsed 

by AAPFCO, but most states are not enforcing the 

humic and folic acid test.

So my comments would be to the 

Subcommittee that the international standard is 

not being used, and we encourage the use of this 

standard. 

Next slide, please. Next slide, 

please. Yes, there you go. The Subcommittee 

also presented concerns about lack of 

effectiveness of use these products. There is 

an issue with third party reviewers right now 

listing products that are not using folic acids, 

and we'd like to bring this next (audio 

interference) bring it to attention of the NOSB. 

NOSB rules clearly indicate that humic and folic 

acids are extracted from humates.

I included the reference there from 

the Code, which is "Humates is a mined substance 

of low solubility." There are products being 

sold in the humic and folic space that are not of 
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mineral of mined low solubility. Plant extracts, 

lignosulfonates, corn steep liquors, others are 

included in the humic and folic acid category, 

and they should instead be appropriately 

categorized as in vessel compost and plant 

extracts. 

We think this is a huge problem and 

correctly correlates to the issues with, 

presented by the Subcommittee, that some of these 

products are not showing the efficacious results. 

Next slide, please. We think the 

Subcommittee's concerns can be easily addressed 

by enforcing third party rules, getting the third 

parties to follow NOP rules as written, and 

encouraged use of ISO method 19822. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comments, Russell. Any questions from the 

Board? (No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

Appreciate your time today. Thank you.

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Moving on, we 

have Amalie Lipstreu next, followed by Abby 

youngblood and them Adam Seitz.

MS. LIPSTREU: Thank you, Nate. My 

name is Amalie Lipstreu, and I'm the policy 

director for the Ohio Ecological Food and Farm 

Association. To get at the heart of my comment, 

I need to provide a little history. OEFFA was 

founded more than 40 years ago by farmers, some 

of whom became sick or saw their family members 

get sick and die in ways associated with the use, 

the increased use of chemical inputs in farming.

They noticed changes in soil biology 

that they didn't like, and they did something 

courageous at the time. They said no, we don't 

want to farm in the way increasingly becoming the 

norm, which in many cases put them outside of the 

community of their neighbors. They were among 

the founding leaders of OEFFA and of the organic 

movement, and it's important that we ground 

ourselves in their decades of leadership. 
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Society at large is just now coming to 

appreciate the critical role that organic farmers 

provide, and climate change is accelerating that 

understanding. Despite some of what we heard at 

the spring NOSB meeting, there is an increasing 

amount of science to back that up. We also 

appreciate the work of the Board taking on the 

momentous task of demonstrating how organic is 

climate smart, which is challenging given that 

there is no consensus definition of the term 

"climate smart."

OEFFA strongly supports the assertion 

by the Board that future research must include 

the greenhouse gas impacts of not using synthetic 

nitrogen, and that a full life cycle analysis of 

organic management systems is needed. 

Greenhouse gas emissions are not limited to what 

happens within the farm gate. Therefore, climate 

and ag research must extend beyond those borders.

OEFFA is on the record saying that we 

have reservations regarding the use of the 
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universal OSP and believe that the connection 

between the universal OSP and climate change is 

tenuous. Finally, let me state very clearly that 

OEFFA supports the Board's assertion that the 

USDA Agricultural Marketing Service has a key 

role to play in raising the awareness about the 

role of organic management systems in addressing 

climate change.

USDA Secretary Vilsack made a 

statement during his Obama administration tenure 

that he could not choose between children, 

meaning organic and conventional farmers and 

support organic production, implying that to do 

so would damage or insult conventional producers. 

Also, we often hear about taking a whole of 

government approach to challenging issues.

Let's continue to ask the USDA to take 

this opportunity and use a whole of agriculture 

approach to support all farmers in moving toward 

resilient climate-friendly systems, lifting up 

organic management as a positive example. 
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Great timing, 

right on. Thank you. Any questions from the 

Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, really 

appreciate your comments today in joining us 

Amalie. Next up we have Abby youngblood, 

followed by Adam Seitz and then Darryl Williams. 

Abby, please go ahead.

MS. YOUNGBLOOD: Thanks, Nate. Good 

afternoon. I'm Abby youngblood, executive 

director at the National Organic Coalition. Over 

the past year, NOC and our partners have worked 

to activate support for organic agriculture 

across the USDA, and we want to highlight a few 

significant milestones.

Secretary Tom Vilsack at USDA has 

publicly stated the climate benefits of organic 

systems. USDA has launched a $300 million 

organic transition initiative. The origin of 

livestock rule was finalized in March, and the 
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rule is meaningful. We anticipate a final 

strengthening organic enforcement rule soon, and 

the organic community is pushing hard for the 

finalization of the long overdue proposed organic 

animal welfare rules.

And the NOSB is seeking a path forward 

to provide technical support to NOSB members, and 

the NOP has allocated funding for that purpose. 

This is an important issue to reduce barriers to 

serving on the NOSB, especially for farmers and 

those with fewer resources. NOC is now turning 

to the Farm Bill legislation as a vehicle to 

strengthen organic integrity and increase the 

port for organic agriculture, and I encourage the 

NOSB to engage with NOC and other advocates in 

this bigger picture thinking, about the changes 

that are needed to address regulatory 

bottlenecks, reform certification cross-share, 

increase participation for under-served farmers, 

recognize organic as a climate change solution, 

boost funding for organic research and more.
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So when we see each other in 

Sacramento, I will have with me a document 

highlighting our top priorities in the Farm Bill 

legislation. Later today, my NOP colleagues will 

testify on the detailed comments we submitted to 

you this fall. For now, I want to draw your 

attention to the annotation chart in our 

comments. 

The National List requires specific 

and detailed annotations to restrict how 

materials are used, but those annotations cannot 

be made at sunset. For that reason, we strongly 

urge the Materials Subcommittee to create a 

living document of annotations and to update that 

at every NOSB meeting, and we've included in our 

comments a chart that can be a starting point for 

that work.

I also want to express strong support 

for the NOSB's work on excluded methods. I urge 

you to work in partnership with the National 

Organic Program to assert that excluded methods 
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are the law of the land for organic production. 

The organic community is united in our opposition 

to gene editing and other new GE techniques.

Finally, I want to thank the NOSB for 

you work on the risk mitigation table. Oversight 

of the NOP's accreditation system is fundamental 

to organic integrity, and the NOSB must pay close 

attention to how the NOP's annual peer review 

audits are going and to the other mechanisms to 

strengthen the accreditation process. Thank you 

for your work and (audio interference) each of 

these comments.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so 

much, Abby. Any questions from the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have one quick 

question for you Abby. Could you list off those 

wins one more time that we've experienced this 

last semester?

MS. YOUNGBLOOD: It does feel good. 

We don't have everything we want just yet, but 
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hearing Secretary Vilsack talk about the value of 

organic as a climate change solution. Those 

words came out of his mouth I think twice, once 

in the spring and once this fall. The launch of 

the $300 million Organic Transition Initiative, 

which includes technical assistance, mentorship, 

NRDC programs, some risk management, and we want 

to build off of that in the Farm Bill. 

Finally, the origin of livestock rule 

finalized and a good rule, and strengthening 

organic enforcement, organic livestock and 

poultry standards. I hope that we'll be toasting 

each other on finalization of those rules within 

the next few months. 

It's always slower than we want it to 

be, and then the work that you guys are doing to 

provide technical support to NOSB members and to 

make it easier for people to serve on the Board. 

Great progress, and we need to keep that momentum 

going.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 
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for those highlights. I really appreciate it, 

and thank you for the work of NOC. All right. 

We're going to keep moving on. Thank you, Abby. 

Adam Seitz is up next, followed by Darryl 

Williams and Harold Austin. Adam, please go 

ahead.

MR. SEITZ: Good morning and 

afternoon. My name is Adam Seitz, and I serve 

as a senior technical reviewer for Quality 

Assurance International, and NSF company and the 

leading provider of organic certification 

services worldwide. As always, thank you NOSB 

and NOP for your efforts and for the opportunity 

to comment. 

I'll be commenting exclusively on the 

topic of ion exchange filtration. First, it's 

entirely appropriate to require that ion exchange 

recharge materials be included on the National 

List, and QAI supports this proposal. It is, 

however, not appropriate to regulate ion exchange 

resins as ingredients for processing aids, as 
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they are neither. They are food contact 

substances.

Instead of reiterating our written 

comment, I'll move on to a little exercise. 

Consider 205.605(a), which includes nonsynthetic substances permitted for use as 

ingredients in processed organic products. It 

includes citric acid. Imagine an organic 

beverage producer that dumps citric acid into a 

hopper, pneumatically conveys the citric acid to 

a batching vessel, adds water and then pumps the 

citric acid solution to a subsequent batching 

vessel.

This citric acid batching system, 

which pumps hydrogen and citrate ions into a 

vessel for blending with organic product, is not 

dissimilar from ion exchange resins, which as 

food contact substances function more like 

equipment. Assuming the recharge materials are 

on the National List, released ions from National 

List substances such as sodium hydroxide into 
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organic product.

Considering the citric acid handling 

scenario further, the citric acid may contact a 

number of food contact substances on its way from 

a 50 pound bag, the bag itself possibly 

containing food contact substances, all the way 

through the conveyance system, where it is 

blended with organic ingredients.

Additionally, the hypothetical 

organic beverage being processed may also contact 

additional food contact substances and even as 

packaged. Further, citric acid, an accepted nonsynthetic ingredient and other non-synthetic and 

non-organic agricultural ingredients on the 

National List, are often purified using ion 

exchange resins. This does not change their 

status to synthetic.

Even the water that was batched with 

the citric acid could have very well been treated 

by a water treatment facility that utilizes ion 

exchange filtration to purify the water, or it 
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could have been softened on site with an ion 

exchange water softening system. 

At the end of the day, the topic is 

complex, and while QAI supports the NOSB's Option 

1 scenario for resins, a more robust long-term 

work topic and solution may be needed to evaluate 

the program's scope of authority in regulating 

food contact substances.

Requiring ion exchange resins to be 

included on the National List is not appropriate, 

especially in light of the north of 5,000 food 

contact substances that would then require 

inclusion as well. We could go even further and 

start looking at the plasticizers and other 

additives in bailer, the paint and many other 

substances on ag equipment that contact both 

organic products and organic soil and so on.

Not a great idea and not an actual 

suggestion, but something to think about in the 

context of figuring out what to do with ion 

exchange resins. Thank you much for your time 
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and consideration.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

for your comments, and thank you for the visuals 

you included in your written comments. Those 

were really helpful. Any questions for Adam from 

the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: The idea of paint 

being considered on a bailer has me really up and 

all excited. So thanks for that visual as well. 

All right, thank you Adam. Moving on, we're 

going to next have Darryl Williams, followed by 

Harold Austin and then George Szczepanski. 

Darryl.

MR. WILLIAMS: Good afternoon. My 

name is Darryl Williams. I'm a senior technical 

reviewer for Quality Assurance International. 

QAI supports and underlying theme of fraud 

prevention, but QAI does not agree that 

standardized audit checklists or other 

certification forms are the answer.
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There are several resources outlined 

in the IOI trainings, ACA's best practices, 

Organic Integrity Learning Center and NOP Organic 

Program Handbook about these topics. If a 

universal form is created, must a certifier use 

the universal form by law? 

If not, then providing a template that 

may be used seems like a good path forward. 

Forms created and used by certifiers should be up 

to their discretion, and should provide the 

information needed to verify compliance.

These forms should be assessed by the 

NOP during accreditation audits, and improved on 

an individual certifier basis if not adequate. 

Lastly, it may be valuable to hold off on this 

discussion until the SOE is published, to ensure 

the proposal is in line with the rule. A better 

approach than standardized forms like audit 

checklists would be to define specific guidelines 

for what information should be included on the 

form.
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For example, in conducting mass 

balances or tracebacks, what minimum during of 

time for mass balance is acceptable? And/or what 

constitutes a unique identifier for complete 

tracebacks? Regarding BOLs, can we legally 

require any information that's not included in 

Title 49 or other regulations which describe the 

use of straight bills of lading, like unique lot 

numbers, crop year grown or buyer name to be on 

the BOL? 

A BOL does not always provide 

traceability by a lot number. Traceability in a 

mass balance can be verified where the BOL traces 

for example, to the certificate of analysis that 

contains the BOL number and a lot number for the 

shipped ingredient or finished product. Other 

receiving records and receiving logs can be in 

place to tie documentation together, which 

contain lot numbers, crop year grown and buyer.

We have a wide variety of forms used 

by different certifiers, and we have an even 
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wider variety of documentation on manufacturer's 

letterhead to verify compliance. What guidance 

for forms would help certifiers be more 

consistent? 

As already stated, guidance about what 

specific information should be covered and even 

what regulatory vocabulary, terminology and 

questions certifiers should be asking on forms 

would be extremely beneficial.

For example, questions regarding 

genetic modification do not always include the 

correct terminology for appropriate excluded 

methods verification, and some may be accepting 

manufacturer documentation that only refers to 

GMOs instead of excluded methods, or that 

reference regulation EC 1829 or 1830 for genetic 

modification, when we know these definitions are 

different from NOP requirements.

Additionally, engineered 

nanomaterials are becoming more common in food, 

while NOP guidance states that engineered 
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nanomaterials would not be permitted unless 

included on the National List. It's uncommon for 

certifiers to be verifying high risk ingredients 

against this requirement.

We do not feel it's appropriate to 

require certifiers to use standardized forms, but 

we do welcome specific guidance and from the NOSB 

(audio interference) quickly provided by (audio 

interference). We thank you for all your work.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we thank you 

for your comments. Any questions from the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have a question 

for you Darryl, and it is, it is on this topic, 

I guess, when we're thinking about the big 

picture, the goal of standardized forms in this 

document, really we're trying to figure out in 

what ways can we aid the consistency of these 

audits? When we look at mass balance and 

tracebacks, you if you look at report forms 

across certifiers, they range in quality by a 
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lot.

And so in training inspectors how to 

conduct mass balance and tracebacks it's very 

theoretical, because it's going to be certifierspecific when they actually get in the field and 

start working. 

And so what ways would you say we 

could improve training inspectors on how to 

conduct these, so that we're not just figuring 

out what is the certifier asking on this form, 

but rather how do I find fraud?

In thinking about this document, if we 

were to make a universal form or a universal 

guideline to aid in identifying what materials to 

audit, what timeframes, etcetera, it seems like 

we'd be able to experience a better success rate 

of identifying red flags, as opposed to just 

trying to make sure that we're answering the 

questions correctly that the certifier's asking 

on their forms.

So trying to, you know, get ahead and 
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find fraud, what would you say is the best way we 

should go about increasing inspector efficacy?

MR. WILLIAMS: I would just say, you 

know, it's really about where your starting point 

and your ending points are, you know, going with 

your inventory levels and really directing the 

audits on how they should be conducted and 

guidance provided is really the best way. It's 

difficult, because every operation is going to be 

different.

Like grain elevator is going to be 

different from yogurt manufacturer. I mean 

they're very, very different. I think, you know, 

guidance on also just what should we be -- what 

are the most, what are the items that prevent or 

that we're seeing be fraudulent the most, you 

know, and really scope in on those things, you 

know. 

Is it weak, is it, you know, flavors? 

What is it? What are we seeing that's a large 

problem, and I think we should just focus in on 
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those. I hope I got your --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: You did. One 

quick follow-up to that, do you think this is 

more of an appropriate item for ACA to work on, 

to identify best practices across certifiers, 

rather than guidance from the program or NOSB?

MR. WILLIAMS: I think guidance has a 

little more footing than the ACA does, and I don't 

mean any, any harm in that. I just know I've 

been on several working groups, and a lot of stuff 

is developed in there for flavor questionnaires 

and stuff like that, and a lot of times that 

doesn't get transposed onto certifiers' 

documentation.

So I think certifiers tend to listen 

a little more to NOP guidance than they do ACA, 

and I'm not saying that's the right thing to do. 

But it's, it's what I typically see.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No, that's very 

helpful. Thank you, and thank you for your 

comments today. All right. Next up we have 
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Harold Austin, followed by George Szczepanski and 

then Emily Griep, Griep, sorry. Harold, please 

go ahead.

MR. AUSTIN: Thanks Nate. Good 

morning. My name's Harold Austin. I'm the 

director of Orchard Administration for Circle 

Fruit Company, and a former member of the NOSB, 

serving in the handlers' position. My comments 

are of support on behalf of the Organic Crop 

Producers and Handlers here in the Pacific 

Northwest.

For handling, I support the relisting 

of nitrogen and carbon dioxide. Both of these 

are used in the storing of our organic apples 

under controlled atmosphere storage conditions, 

which is key to maintaining the quality, 

integrity and condition of our fruit for a longer 

period of time.

In crops, please see my written 

comments for a more in-depth list of the 

materials, explanation of those materials that 
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I'm supporting to have relisted for cost material 

usage. Some of those materials are 

micronutrients, sticky traps and humic acids, all 

important tools in organic crop production.

Of special importance are the two 

listings for the coppers, the fixed coppers and 

the copper sulfates. These two materials are 

important for nutrition as well as for disease 

control. After the loss of the two antibiotics, 

the coppers have become an intricate component in 

our product rotation for fire blight control.

Helping organic tree fruit producers 

to not only just control this deadly disease, but 

also aiding us in resistance management. 

Resistance management is as much of importance as 

the control of fire blight or coryneum blight 

themselves are. In the past, our industry has 

had to deal with resistance to several miticides 

and various other materials. Since then, our 

industry has worked hard to avoid any such 

incidents from ever happening to us again.
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In order for that to continue to 

occur, we must maintain a healthy material 

toolbox and a broad product selection, thus 

ensuring adequate products to use in rotation. 

The continued allowance for the use of coppers is 

an integral part of this process. For CACS, the 

overall concept in sourcing technical support 

from within the USDA I completely support and 

agree with. 

I do not support the Subcommittee's 

recommendation to not allow that help to come 

from AMS NOP. The NOP is the USDA division that 

works in tandem with AMS NOP and at the NOSB, and 

having the historical knowledge growing from 

within their rank and file, similar to what we 

had when I served, when we worked with Emily Brown 

Rosen of the AMS NOP and she was an employee 

there, I can't say enough about the impact that 

her knowledge has and was for those of us that 

were serving at that time.

I think it benefits all of you to take 
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and look at trying to grow that knowledge within 

the USDA's NOP process. Source it from the other 

divisions of the USDA, but funnel that 

information through the AMS NOP staff, so that 

they too are becoming as knowledgeable about each 

of the materials as possible. Then that 

knowledge will be there to be used and integrated 

into future discussions where and when needed.

I would like to also offer my support 

to the comments from the two gentlemen from the 

Northwest Horticultural Council that will be 

presenting later this morning. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Any 

questions for Harold from the Board?

(No response.)

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. This is 

Brian, Nate.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Harold, thanks so 

much for all your past work and your commitment. 

I really appreciate that. A quick question about 
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copper sulfate, and I'm just wondering, I'm 

pretty familiar with all the fixed copper usage, 

but how much is copper sulfate actually used?

MR. AUSTIN: You know Brian, copper 

sulfates, you know, because it's a finer grind 

material than the fixed copper, fixed coppers are 

a little bit safer used later in the growing 

season. Fixed coppers really are the materials 

that are used in the fall or early in the spring 

before we start to develop a lot of blossoms in 

growth on the tree.

It's a good form of copper when mixed 

with oil or something else to adhere, to deal 

with overlittering bacteria of the fire blight 

and coryneum blight on the tree, where the fixed 

copper is a lot safer material to use in-season. 

So both of them kind of have their specific fit 

in organic tree fruit usages. One, the copper 

sulfate more when the trees in the dormant 

stages; fixed copper more when the tree has 

foliage and fruit on the crop, on the tree itself.
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MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay, thanks very 

much.

MR. WILLIAMS: You're welcome.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Darryl? All right. Thank you very 

much sir.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thanks guys. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

George Szczepanski, followed by Emily Griep and 

then Alice Runde.

MR. SZCZEPANSKI: Thanks, Nate. I 

appreciate a good pronunciation of the name 

there. That's a tough one. My name is George 

Szczepanski, and I'm commenting on behalf of the 

International Fresh Produce Association, where I

serve as director of Production, Supply Chain and 

Environmental Policy. 

I want to begin by thanking the 

Committee for their hard work. It does not go 

unnoticed, even by those of us commenting on the 

call like myself who you might not know 
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personally yet.

As I spend time getting to know this 

part of the process a little better, it's obvious 

that NOSB has a huge task and rises to the call 

of dedication. As I mentioned, I'm representing 

the International Fresh Produce Association. 

IFPA represents every segment of the global fresh 

produce supply chain, with approximately 3,000 

member companies, including over 500 directly 

involved in the organic fresh fruit, vegetable 

and floral supply chain.

Last year $9 billion of organic 

produce was sold in this country, accounting for 

12 percent of all produce sold. When shoppers 

think about organic, they're often thinking about 

fruits and vegetables, and that's why it's 

critical that the produce industry is considered 

as a part of all applicable NOSB recommendations. 

The content of our comments is driven 

by IFPA Organics Committee, comprised of 21 

passionate produce industry professionals 
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representing a diversity of organic produce 

commodity and operation types, regions and 

experience. They're passionate about the work 

they do, the food they bring to the market, and 

the organic values that drive their operations.

You'll hear from my colleague Dr. 

Emily Griep and members of the committee on a 

number of items on the list for this meeting, 

including biodegradable, bio-based mulch fill, 

elemental sulfur, carbon dioxide, Polyoxin D and 

other sunset materials. The ones I mentioned, 

we do support the continued use of these 

materials, and would direct you to our written 

comments submitted to the docket for full 

commentary.

IFPA is grateful for the opportunity 

to participate in this process, and in 

maintaining the inputs and standards that align 

with your data program. We advocate for policies 

that foster, not stifle creativity. 

When perfect is the enemy of the good 
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and proposals to limit the use of new inputs are 

sent to the NOSB, we disincentivize the research 

and development of future tools that will drive 

the industry forward and continue to meet the 

growing demand for organic fresh produce.

Innovation that is in line with the 

organic principles needs to be encouraged as part 

of the continuously improving organic 

marketplace. We urge NOSB to approach 

consideration of recommendations to the NOP with 

specific attention to the need for adequate tools 

for fresh produce growers, for objective 

scientific review, with an understanding of the 

diverse needs of the many crops, regions and 

methods of production in the organic universe.

When you go to NOP, please represent 

the facets of the organic community that we 

represent. As previously mentioned, IFPA has 

submitted more detailed comments to the docket, 

and we're happy to provide additional information 

at any time. We appreciate your consideration 
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of these comments in support of the fresh organic 

produce industry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

for your comments. Logan has a question.

MEMBER PETREY: Hi George, good to see 

you. Oh great, great. Thank you for the comment 

and thank you also for the written comments for 

the Board to diving into those more. So question 

on the biodegradable, bio-based mulch film. You 

said you were in favor for its relisting, and did 

you see that from most of your growers to have 

that relisted and do you also see it as like you 

were talking about innovative things for the 

organic industry to move forward, you know, as 

progress? Just a comment on that subject.

MR. SZCZEPANSKI: Absolutely. Logan, 

I appreciate the question and it's a big yes on 

both of those points. You'll hear a little bit 

more from Dr. Emily Griep, who's going to be also 

coming from IFPA, as well as some of our growers, 

and the growers are really what drives this. 
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Particularly in the berry industry, 

we've heard that this is not only a useful 

development, it's something that prevents the 

least of a lot of plastic mulch that goes straight 

to the landfill if we don't have alternatives 

like this.

It's definitely part of how IPA 

approaches a lot of things that we look for 

innovation that drives the industry forward, and 

really as the -- as this kind of a product is 

improved upon over the years, it needs -- it needs 

a market to be used to get the investment dollars 

to keep making it a better and better substitute 

and to do the research on it that's going to help 

us understand better its function and what 

happens as it biodegrades.

MEMBER PETREY: Right.

MR. SZCZEPANSKI: So yeah, I'm really 

driven by the members and you'll hear a little 

bit more from them as the day goes on too.

MEMBER PETREY: Awesome. Thank you, 
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George.

MR. SZCZEPANSKI: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have one quick 

question for you George, just tacking onto 

Logan's BPMF question. Do any of your members, 

do any of them use this product?

GS Yes they do. Actually you know 

what Nate? I'm going to make sure that I can 

circle back and confirm the people who I'm 

talking to about it. 

Like I said, of particular industry to 

the berry industry, but I've also had growers 

come back and comment more on the philosophical 

approach that we want to be encouraging, even 

people that aren't using product, that looking to 

encourage inputs that are solving problems, even 

if they have to be further refined to get to that, 

that final stage where they're really rising to 

the call.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That would be 

great to give any specific brand names you have 
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on products out there and --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That would be 

great. If you could send that to Michelle, that 

would be awesome. 

GS Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so 

much. Next up we have Dr. Emily Griep, followed 

by Alice Runde and then John Foster.

DR. GRIEP: Yes, hello. Thank you, 

Nate. As you said, my name is Emily Griep and 

I'm the Vice President of Regulatory Compliance 

and Global Food Safety Standards for the 

International Fresh Produce Association.

I likewise want to recognize and thank 

the Board for the extensive amount of work you do 

throughout the year, reviewing every input along 

with the, I'm sure many stakeholder comments you 

receive each fall and spring. I and our members 

really appreciate this opportunity to engage 

directly in these activities. 
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With regards to the inputs currently 

under consideration, I do want to highlight a few 

pertaining to the Crop Subcommittee that are 

especially important for our industry. The first 

of those is carbon dioxide. IFPA strongly 

supports the continued use both as an algicide 

disinfectant and sanitizer, as well as a plant or 

soil amendment.

Carbon dioxide is essential for plant 

growth as a key component to facilitate 

photosynthesis. Its use as an enrichment is 

particularly important in greenhouse 

environments, to facilitate efficient growth and 

maximize their yields. Carbon dioxide is also 

used as a pH adjuster in irrigation water 

sources, which is also necessary to help promote 

the efficiency of nutrient uptake.

We do also support the continued 

inclusion of Polyoxin D zinc salts on the 

National List. It is an essential fungicide for 

fruit and vegetable production that is both 
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highly effective and low in toxicity. This 

particular input is critical to prevent plant 

diseases such as foliar or leaf blight, as well 

as petritis and its use in combination with other 

fungicides, aids in the prevention of pathogen 

resistance to these treatments.

So we do also support the continued 

use of elemental sulfur as a fungicide and as a 

soil amendment to control pH. Finally, I would 

like to state our strong support for 

biodegradable, bio-based mulch film. As George 

mentioned, certain sectors of industry, 

particularly producers of berries, tomatoes and 

other row crops, currently rely on the use of 

polyethylene plastic film for weed control as 

well as water conservation, and there are not any 

suitable alternatives currently available.

Unfortunately, this plastic is unable 

to be recycled after its use, and so it does 

inevitably end up in the landfill. We were very 

glad to see the approval of 80 percent BBMF in I 
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believe it was the fall of 2021 meeting, as we do 

expect and hope this will encourage innovation in 

the manufacturing industry, to further develop 

these films and make them more widely available 

for all organic growers. So we do hope that the 

Board will vote to maintain BBMF on the National 

List.

As we've mentioned, we do support the 

continued use of additional materials currently 

under sunset consideration, and would direct you 

to our written comments submitted to the docket. 

On behalf of IFPA, the IFPA Organics Committee 

and our broader membership, thank you again for 

your time and consideration.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comments. Amy, please go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure, thanks Nate. 

Emily, thank you for your time today and written 

comments. I really appreciate it. I have two 

questions for you. One, you mentioned Polyoxin 

D and I was just going through written comments 
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and from stakeholders there are some concerns 

about the substance potentially and its effects 

on beneficial organisms.

Do you have any experience or 

information from your point of view on that 

substance and its effects on potential 

beneficials?

DR. GRIEP: I'm not aware of that at 

ths moment, but that's something I'd again be 

happy to follow up with you on it and speak to 

our members, and see kind of what we have 

available in regards with that current research.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, perfect. That 

would be a great follow-up, and then secondarily, 

you had mentioned EMF, and you talked a lot about 

EMF and the word "innovation" with that product, 

based on current standards with polyethylene 

films. 

Is there any other innovation 

happening in this sector in regards to how do we 

rethink plastic or biodegradable plastics or the 
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way in which we're farming these vegetables 

outside of, you know, films placed on the ground? 

Can you touch on that?

DR. GRIEP: So as far as I'm aware, 

the use of films on the ground really is the most 

effective and I think one of the only ways to 

control or suppress weed growth, and I think it's 

something that as an industry we would love to be 

able to get away from, and they're just have not 

been any suitable alternatives at this point.

And so that's something where we even 

now there's concerns with the use of plastic and 

is that degrading into our soils, and there's 

certainly I think the need for more research all 

around with regards to whether it is continued 

use of plastics? 

Is there a way to prevent that 

degradation? Is there a way that we can recycle 

these, you know? Plastic recycling in general 

is really a challenging component, not you know, 

not only to organic production but just in 
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general for the packaging industry.

So I don't know that we have a good 

answer for what the best alternative is, but I 

think the BBMF and that's an area where we see 

okay, this research development has been evolving 

and I think is probably the farthest along that 

we see of other alternatives. So that's 

something we do want to also recognize. 

All right, there's still more to be 

known about these inputs as well, but that's 

where, you know, we say I think to really 

encourage that research and that innovation, what 

we kind of keep going back to is there needs to 

be a market for that as well, to encourage the 

manufacturers to see okay, this is worth putting 

our time and resources into.

MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you Emily, 

appreciate it.

DR. GRIEP: Thank you so much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you Amy. 

Dilip, please go ahead.
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MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Nate. 

Thanks Emily for this very interesting info. I'm 

curious to know about this producer safety 

training. Do you have any idea how it is going? 

Is it mandatory on organic farms, because they 

may be talking about one of these inputs what 

we've been talking here. Thank you.

DR. GRIEP: So do you mean just 

product safety training in general?

MEMBER NANDWANI: Correct. It is 

mandatory, now it has become mandatory I believe 

on the organic farms, or how is going?

DR. GRIEP: It is correct. So the 

produce safety rule was published by FDA in 2015, 

and so there's been a lot of training going on 

for all farms covered by the produce safety rule, 

and so that does include all organic and 

conventional farms. There are certain 

exemptions for the produce safety rule related to 

size of the farm or whether you're growing what 

they call rarely consumed raw produce.
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So if it's, you know, something like 

a potato or something that's not going to be, 

it's going to be cooked before it's eaten. There 

are certain exemptions. But the requirements are 

the same for conventional and organic farms, and 

the training.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. 

DR. GRIEP: You're welcome.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

that. Mindee, please go ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you Emily 

for the information. I'm curious. Part of this 

discussion feels a little stuck in the binary of 

plastic versus a bio-based film, and I'm curious 

if anyone in your group is doing research or 

successfully focusing on biological and cultural 

methods, rather than looking towards solutions 

that require -- a synthetic solution that 

requires manufacturing.

DR. GRIEP: So that's something I know 

George had mentioned too, and so we do have a 
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member of our Organics Committee, and I believe 

she's going to be speaking later today, Emily 

Musgrave. She's done a lot of work and a lot of 

research in this area. 

And so it's something I can also 

follow up with her separately and we can, you 

know, do our best to really compile okay, what do 

we all know at this point and maybe even get to 

a mini-lit review or something to follow up and 

get a better idea for okay, what's the current 

state? Who's using what products and what, you 

know, maybe potential alternatives are there? 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Fantastic, all 

right. Thank you Mindee. Any other questions 

for Emily? One question for you just to clarify, 

and this might be part of your response with the 

follow up, but do you have any producers that you 

know of who have a product that they can use, 

that qualifies under 80 percent or 100 percent 

BBMF?

DR. GRIEP: My understanding is that 
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it's not currently widely used, if at all. So I 

don't think we have any producers at this point, 

and again, so I'll be in the in-person meeting 

next week, so I can quick try and get some answers 

for you and get a list if we have anybody. But 

my understanding is that it's actually not used 

yet at this point.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That would be 

great. So you see or your organization sees the 

listing as aspirational? In other words, sort 

of setting the goalpost for innovation?

DR. GRIEP: Yes, correct.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. I very 

much appreciate that. All right, thank you. 

I'll look forward to that follow up. Next up we 

have Alice Runde, followed by John Foster and 

then Margaret Scoles. Alice, please go ahead.

MS. RUNDE: Thank you. Good 

afternoon. My name is Alice Runde. I'm the 

coalition manager for the National Organic 

Coalition or NOC. My comments today pertain to 
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racial equity, in-person oral comments in acreage 

reporting and organic climate smart agriculture. 

On the racial equity, NOC has previously 

presented data and context regarding the 

persistent structural racism in our agricultural 

system, which has excluded most BIPOC farmers 

from landed farm ownership and participation in 

organic certification.

NOC's recommendation for the NOSB are 

to (1) establish a Diversity, Equity and 

Inclusion Subcommittee within the NOSB to ensure 

equity receives the time and attention it 

deserves; (2) advocate for anti-racism and 

cultural sensitivity training for NOSB members; 

(3) partner with key stakeholders; (4) prioritize 

research examining barriers to participation in 

organic certification for BIPOC farmers; and (5) 

advocate for USDA to provide targeted outreach, 

technical assistance, information and 

infrastructure.

On in-person oral comments, while we 
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understand the decision to only have virtual oral 

public comments for the fall 2022 Board meeting, 

we encourage the Board to restore in-person oral 

comments for future meetings. The virtual 

comments provide access to all members of our 

community, while in-person comments also provide 

a chance for stakeholders to be involved in an 

in-person meeting.

Many stakeholders attend the inperson meeting to give comments and then stay to 

listen to the Board deliberations. This 

community participation differs from many other 

FACA boards, and it is an integral part of having 

the Board and the stakeholders work 

collaboratively.

On acreage reporting, inclusion of 

crop acreage on organic certificates and the 

number of animals is essential to determine 

whether an operation is indeed capable of 

producing the quantity of organic products it 

offers for sale. The reporting must be flexible 
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for small acreages such as mixed vegetable 

operations. Reporting the number of animals and 

stage of life would both help determine the ratio 

of animals to acres of pasture, and would also 

help inform the state of national organic dairy 

by way of growth data, and knowledge of 

replacement animals available.

We do ask that if the proposal passes, 

that there be a mechanism for risk assessment 

based on mix of acreage size and dollar value of 

crops. 

Organic and climate smart 

agriculture. First, NOC applauds the 

considerable amount of work that went into 

producing the discussion document on organic and 

climate smart agriculture. We agree that organic 

certification should automatically qualify a 

producer for climate smart programs through USDA.

The fact that every organic producers 

goes through the certification process and 

inspection every year, and has to document 
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ecosystem management practices is notable and 

unique. Climate smart practices should cover a 

whole package of management practices that are 

environmentally beneficial. Organic system 

plans and annual inspections are integral to the 

development of that complete ecosystem package. 

Thank you for your consideration and your time.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comments. We have a question from Logan. 

Please go ahead.

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you. Thanks 

for the comments. First, sort of two questions. 

The first one on the, let's see, the racial equity 

and getting more BIPOC or organic farmers. Do 

you have any idea where in the country that may 

be accomplished the most? Like is there any look 

at where we may have the most BIPOC conventional 

farmers and that was where we might transition 

more? Do we have any idea like what states or, 

you know, what area that is, because it's 

interesting on the research side, you know, is we 
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need to focus some prioritized research.

That could be a geographical need as 

well, because our country's very diverse in 

climates and everything else. So I didn't know 

if you'd speak to that.

MS. RUNDE: Yeah, and I'm happy to 

follow up with more precise information, 

beginning with most BIPOC farmers are in the 

Southeast or in the South, and that happens to be 

like one of their main challenges is accessing 

local certification agencies and that there's not 

enough certification agencies in the areas that 

might serve BIPOC farmers. So that's one of the 

challenges that we've seen through the data.

And again, I'm happy to follow up with 

more precise information on that very interesting 

question. I know it's something we're looking 

at, especially as it relates to the Organic 

Transition Initiative and trying to connect some 

of the organizations that work with BIPOC farmers 

to certification agencies, organic technical 
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assistance, that information.

MEMBER PETREY: Right, and then 

second question. Thank you. Organic cert --

you said something, organic certification should 

equal climate smart agriculture, and I agree with 

you. I was actually at the IFPA conference and 

it was stated that there may be a difference and 

a separation in regenerative ag and organic ag 

and I completely disagree.

I think that organic agriculture is 

regenerative, and you should not have to have 

both labels, or there should not be a competing, 

a competing deal. That's concerning to me as an 

organic producer, that we may have a 

misperception that organic farming is no longer, 

is not the regenerative, and that now you have 

consumers that are more interested in 

regenerative than they are organic. That can be 

very confusing to me, and so I agree with you. 

I hope that we're able to make that known to 

everybody, our consumers base and everything. So 
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I'm glad you stated that, so thank you.

MS. RUNDE: Absolutely.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well said Logan. 

Thank you for that, that's great. Any other 

questions for Alice?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

you Alice for your time and comments. Next up 

we have John Foster and then Steve Ela, followed 

by Phil Larocca. John, please go ahead.

MR. FOSTER: All right. Can you hear 

me all right?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can, thank 

you.

MR. FOSTER: Great. Thanks for the 

time. Thank you for all the hard work. My 

name's John Foster. I am the chief operating 

officer for Walton Associates, former NOSB member 

2010 to 2015. 

The next slide please. The three 

topics I'd like to talk about are right there, 
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and they have to do with the National List and 

how it's applied.

I'll say we also have made some 

written comments, handling crops, CACS and 

general comments. The one, and for those 

interested, I'm particularly kind of attached 

this ion exchange concept, and we've provided 

concepts on that on the handling agenda. But 

these three, these three comments are kind of 

larger thinking, and I'd like to think of them as 

aspirational thinking.

Next slide, please. The -- let me 

change a line here -- I would like the National 

List to be as inclusive and accommodating as 

possible, and my concern here mostly is that 

we're inadvertently excluding opportunities from 

areas of the country, region, world from being 

able to be successful, primarily in farming and 

livestock operations, because materials that we 

think of in the U.S. as being ubiquitous are 

actually really hard to come by elsewhere.
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I don't, my aspiration is that we tend 

to be exclusive in our thinking. Again, I think 

inadvertently, and I'd like to make sure that the 

list is as generous as possible, to serve as many 

people as possible, particularly when supply 

chain fragility really shows itself like it has 

in past years.

Next slide, please. This idea I 

mentioned back in April too, but I've done a lot 

more thinking about it. The utility of a single 

registry that captures and aggregates commercial 

availability allowances the certifiers, this 

would be most perhaps in seed but could be 

applicable elsewhere, I think would be the only 

way we're going to move the needle on organic 

seed use and in a couple of other things, flavors, 

yeast for example, and ensure that those 

decisions are made consistently across all 

certifiers.

I don't see consistent -- I think ACA 

is doing a pretty good job of getting alignment 
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on some things, but I don't see this yet. I 

think it needs NOP oversight to get there. 

Last slide, please. And then I'd like 

to continue kind of building on what I think of 

as success in applying commercial availability to 

things on 605, flavors and yeast. I think 

collagen capsules are on there, collagen gel 

rather is on there now too, and I think the

advances in food science are going to open up if 

we provide an incentive and a marketplace for 

things we think of as non-agricultural at this 

time. But I think they could be if there's the 

right incentive to bring it to market.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comments, John. Kyla has a question for 

you.

MEMBER SMITH: I'm unmuted. Hi John. 

Thanks for your comments. I have a question 

about ion exchange. So there's been a lot of 

comments and focusing in on the definitions, you 

know, most notably of processing aid and 
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ingredient, and as we are well aware within the 

organic regulations there's not a definition of 

hard exceptions.

Do you think it would be helpful as we 

move this to a proposal if we developed our own 

definitions sort of outside of the definition 

that was provided to FDA, to help us, you know, 

further figure out how to approach resins? 

MR. FOSTER: The short answer is yes. 

Can I go on a little bit longer? I think, I 

think adding a definition should be fairly 

straightforward --

(Audio interference.)

MR. FOSTER: I think adding a 

definition could, and I think should be pretty 

straightforward. It also allows us to kind of 

own that, if you will, us meaning, you know, the 

organic community to own that. I do see, I think 

that there's a vulnerability any time the 

regulation reaches out or references another 

agency's definition. That, as we've seen with 
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inerts, that's a recipe for a problem.

But so when we can define that for 

ourselves we should, and then we really don't 

have to worry about it outside, unless in this 

case FDA would, for some reason, come up with a 

drastically new definition that would be 

inconsistent in some way. But on this score, for 

the one or two maybe three terms that would need 

to be defined, I don't see that happening. These 

are all long-standing materials and I would hope 

that changing 205.2 would be relatively 

straightforward compared to something else that's 

more in the practice standard. 

So it's really -- we should take that 

chance. We should make that effort, because then 

it's ours and we can kind of flex as we need to 

within that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Logan has 

a question for you.

MEMBER PETREY: Yeah, thank you. 

John, just a quick question. I didn't know if 
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you could give us an example of a limited material 

for certain areas that are in the supply chain 

shortages. Didn't know if you had anything in 

mind in particular.

MR. FOSTER: Not specific, but take 

for example three -- so three things that a year 

ago everyone would have laughed at me if I said 

there was going to be a global shortage of 

mustard, right; global shortage of sunflower oil; 

global shortage of compressed CO2 actually. New 

Zealand is on a rationing of compressed CO2. 

Those are all things that were 

ubiquitous and unquestioned in their 

availability.

MEMBER PETREY: I think you made a 

great point, and I just didn't know if you had 

any on a list, just to show us that we would have 

never thought, like you said, that to be short 

and they're important materials. 

MR. FOSTER: Yes. Well, I think --

well, CO2 would be one. 
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MEMBER PETREY: Yeah.

MR. FOSTER: That's one that has a lot 

of uses outside of the organic industry, 

primarily outside of the organic industry. But 

the pressure or the intensity of that supply 

chain fragility on the conventional side has 

restrained it significantly more for organic, 

because generally speaking organic operations, 

whether it's farms or processors, don't -- they 

don't use the volume. 

They don't have the buying power. We 

don't have the buying power for many materials. 

They'll always default to their conventional, 

longer-standing generally deeper pocket 

conventional counterparts. So I think we're 

going to continue to be at a volume disadvantage, 

and back to kind of my first point, if the 

National List should be as inclusive as possible, 

because it's clear for the last two or three years 

we don't know where our supply chain hazards are 

going to be.
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MEMBER PETREY: Thank you, and we see 

it with the chicken litter and the organic 

fertilizers. I know that a lot of areas are like 

that, and we even saw it with the Polyoxin D. 

You know it's up for the sunset review and the 

conventional farm manager here won't be. 

MR. FOSTER: Right, right. I don't 

think we can assume that what -- we can't assume 

clearly that what was available a year ago is 

going to be available next year. Anything on the 

list.

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you, John.

MR. FOSTER: Yeah, you bet.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

you for your comments, John.

MR. FOSTER: You're very welcome.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Margaret Scoles, followed by Steve Ela and then 

Phil Larocca. Margaret, please go ahead.

MS. SCOLES: Margaret Scoles, 

executive director of the International Organic 
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Inspectors Association. We train inspectors and 

provide networking services for organic 

inspectors. I want to just make sure I'm online, 

because I don't see the timer moving.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It will start as 

soon as you start.

MS. SCOLES: Can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

MS. SCOLES: Oh okay. I thought I 

was talking to air. Anyway, apologies about the 

webcam. I unexpectedly am not in the office 

today. I'm here to speak kind of a general 

comment related to the Human Capital Initiative, 

the recommendations that you worked on over the 

past two meetings, and this is not necessarily 

about your recommendation but a big project has 

happened with the collaboration of the Accredited 

Certifiers Association and the IOAA.

We struck a working group we chose to 

call the Inspector Retention Working Group rather 

than the Human Capital Working group, and we 
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started in January and over the next five months 

worked to produce a comprehensive 64 page 

document that is available on both the IOAA and 

ACA websites.

We released it about five days after 

your public comment deadline, so it is not in our 

public comments. But I wanted to let you know 

that we settled with some hard questions and we 

came up with a lot of solutions. We didn't come 

up with a solution. We see that inspectors are 

absolutely critical to the organic inspection 

process, and we do see that there is -- we are 

facing a shortage of well-qualified inspectors, 

and there's a lot of factors that are going to 

make that even worse.

We think that the coop, the Inspectors 

Coop is one of the solutions and staff inspectors 

are one of the solutions. Paid apprenticeships 

are one of the solutions. There are a lot of 

different solutions, but there's not one 

solution. I just wanted to share with you that 
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we are continuing to work on that and a report is 

available. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comment. Any questions for the Board for 

Margaret? Kim has a question. Please go ahead 

Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi Margaret. I 

appreciate your comments, and recognizing that 

it's not just one solution but a combination of 

many, what would be your suggestion? Like what 

stood out to you as low-hanging fruit that could 

maybe not solve the issue, but maybe a leading 

way to solve the issue?

MS. SCOLES: I think that in a way 

low-hanging fruit implies that something's easy, 

and I think the first thing that comes to mind is 

not easy but it's really important and that's 

mentorship. 

It's been the missing rung in 

onboarding inspectors, reliable, accessible, 

affordable apprenticeships, and I think we 
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learned a lot about this this past year, and we're 

continuing in fact. We are talking with the 

Department of Labor about a paid apprenticeship 

program that would be maybe yet another solution.

I think that that is one that we have 

to solve to make everything else work, but also 

I think getting the data. I don't know that 

that's easy either, but it's low-hanging fruit. 

It was one of the things that really didn't get 

funded with the NOP Human Capital Initiative. We 

were one of the organizations that put in for 

data.

There's honestly no one in the U.S. 

that knows how many inspectors there are, what is 

the demographic of the inspector that's likely to 

stay in it, how many inspectors we need, and of 

course there's the question of SOE. What happens 

with -- I mean how many inspectors do we need? 

We don't know how many inspections are going to 

happen until SOE is actually released.

So low-hanging fruit, I would say, is 
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continued collaboration between the ACA and IOAA 

for example. So sorry, that was a long answer 

and I didn't give you a full answer.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No, I appreciate 

your comment. Thank you very much.

MS. SCOLES: Thanks.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

other questions for Margaret? 

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

much. 

MS. SCOLES: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

one Steve Ela, followed by Phil Larocca, and then 

Terry Shistar. Chair Emeritus, please go ahead.

MR. ELA: Thanks Nate. Very 

appreciated. It's exciting to be on this side 

of the table instead of that side. So my name 

is Steve Ela. I'm an organic fruit grower out 

here in Western Colorado, but today I'm speaking 

as a representative of the National Organic 
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Coalition, who I'm working with now.

I'd like to talk on four main topic 

areas. First of all, the minimum reporting 

requirement; secondly, NOSB technical support and 

then ion exchange filtration; and then just 

finally more, a bigger comment on the 

essentiality of materials. 

But let's start with minimum 

reporting requirements. We do agree that there 

is a need for a universe bill of lading as you 

have said. We think that would assist with the 

tracking of organic shipments. However, we don't 

agree with the Universal Organic Systems plan. 

Organic firms, in handling operations, as well as 

certifiers, are a rich and diverse group. A onesize-fits-all document will fit no one well.

And so what we would like to see is 

documents that are certified that require certain 

minimum information, but also that different 

certifiers, different auditors can select and 

choose which one fits their particular style and 
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their particular practices. 

So I would suggest that crowd sourcing 

from those that already have those documents, and 

make sure they meet those minimum requirements, 

and then let people select what documents they 

would like to use.

In terms of NOSB's technical support, 

we do believe that good technical support could 

come from within USDA, but we recognize there are 

knowledge gaps in other agencies and organics 

have not always been well represented. We would 

like to make sure that technical support can come 

from outside USDA as well, and in fact what we 

would say is that similar to the NOP contract 

with Armory for technical reports, why not have 

an NOP contract with a similar organization for 

NOSB support. 

We believe that each NOSB member best 

knows how, what kind of support they're going to 

need, and that they should be able to select that 

in their own stead.
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In terms of ion exchange filtration, 

we know it's a simple but complicated topic. 

Obviously the food contact substance versus 

secondary food additive conversation is 

complicated. 

But at this point the Board has 

rejected that resins not be listed. We've gone 

through this several times, and so at this point 

the NOC recommendation is that resins do be 

individually listed, and that we provide a long 

time frame for those to be, go through the 

petition process. So you know, it feels like 

we've gone through this over and over and we've 

kind of edged towards that final conclusion.

The last thing is on essentiality of 

materials. The review of petitions proposals and 

sunsets requiring the details of each material is 

in those -- yeah, we get the details, but we miss 

sometimes the overall picture. We need to step 

back and say is this material actually essential, 

even though it might meet the criteria.
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So for that in our written comments, 

we've noted that the various petitions and some 

sunsets we think should be either delisted or 

rejected. So as a representative of NOC, it 

seems appropriate that I finish with a NOC-NOC 

joke. So Nate, if you would humor me. I would 

like to direct this to a comment on peroxyacetic 

acid, also known as (audio interference). So 

knock-knock? 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Who's there?

MR. ELA: Peroxyacetic acid.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Peroxyacetic acid 

who?

MR. ELA: Don't pull a fast one on us 

and approve a material with no documentation that 

actually works or will be essential to organic 

farming. Thanks, Nate.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Good timing, all 

right. Any questions for Steve? Kyla, please 

go ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Hi Steve. I have some 
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questions on ion exchange, so I took this one 

over from you and your extensive work on this 

topic. So I guess my question is sort of similar 

to what I asked John about definitions. So I 

guess I just -- I'm going to make a statement and 

then I'll ask a question.

So I think that we want to get it 

right, right? So that's what's been taking so 

long, is to make a correct and right decision, 

and it is complicated. And so I guess my 

question is do you or does NOC like -- would you 

define resins as processing aids or ingredients, 

and if so, can you explain how you get to that 

thought?

MR. ELA: I think, you know, we've 

seen the problem of FDA definitions, and I think 

one of the things that NOC members have pushed 

back against and as we -- as the program talked 

to FDA more, you know, the FDA's definition of 

food contact surfaces and, you know, what gets 

designated there is really primarily 
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manufacturer-driven.

There's not a great evaluation process 

for that, and so I think we have some concerns 

that when we defer to FDA on that definition, 

that we're really kind of leaving a wide open 

loophole. And so your comment do we have a 

definition within, you know, the NOP? Maybe. 

You know, we recognize the issue of, you know, 

whether as Nate said that paint on a baler or 

piping, you know, we don't want to go down that 

rabbit hole.

On the other hand, with resins, you 

know, they have not been -- they don't fit exactly 

the food contact substance definition. So I 

guess we feel that because they are exchanging 

materials with foods that they're important, but 

we would like to see them each individually 

listed. There aren't that many resins that are 

in use, so it's not an onerous, onerous process.

It would take some time and we don't 

want to see disruption, but we would like to at 
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least have people know what is in contact with 

their food. 

MEMBER SMITH: I'll ask a follow-up 

question. So I guess like outside of the FDA 

definition of food contact substance or secondary 

food additive, like we have these definitions of 

ingredients and processing aids, and we have a 

precedent after the Harvey lawsuit to list those 

within the National List. So just like looking 

at those definitions, do resins meet either of 

those?

MR. ELA: We are feeling like they 

probably do. So I think that, you know, (audio 

interference) only comes down and NOC members 

think they should be listed individually. And 

as in -- and I feel like the Board has edged 

towards that, because each time we've said no, we 

shouldn't list resins, you know. We should just 

list the recharged materials. The Board has 

rejected that in the past.

So there's been some discomfort in 
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past boards of not listing the resins. So to me 

it feels like tacitly we've kind of moved towards 

individual listing as a comfort level on this. 

But it's a complicated topic no doubt, and the 

nuances are nuanced.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Kyla. 

Logan, just go ahead.

MEMBER PETREY: Hi Steve, great to see 

you. Can you just talk about biodegradable biobased mulch now? What do you think about it? 

you can make it as brief as you want it. We 

still, you know, obviously respect your opinion 

a lot. We used to have you on and so I'd be 

curious to hear what you have to say.

MR. ELA: Yeah. I'll speak both 

personally and as NOC. Personally on the Board, 

and Asa obviously worked, you know, very hard on 

this and Asa and I talked a lot, and I think we 

were both very on the fence on our votes of which 

way we wanted to vote on it, both on the 

annotation we last passed and then, you know, on 
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its -- you know, it's an aspirational listing. 

It's not, that material isn't there yet.

And now putting my NOC hat on as well 

as my personal hat is that I just had very deep 

concerns about whether biodegradable mulch will 

break down in all soils. I really worried that 

we will actually end up with a pollutant in 

organic soils, versus a, you know, an effective 

material.

So I think that comes down to the 

bottom line. Conceptually I love it. I would 

love to use it. I would be great, but 

pragmatically and practically, I just don't think 

it's there and I don't think we have the data or 

the confidence that we're not going to actually 

create more of a problem, rather than less of a 

problem. So with that, I'm moving towards the 

delisting, which is hard --

MEMBER PETREY: And that is the 

delisting of all biodegradable, bio-based mulch 

with the 100 percent. I mean I understand we had 
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the 80, but this would be taking the entire thing 

off?

MR. ELA: It would take the -- it 

would take both the potential annotation and the 

listing off.

MEMBER PETREY: Right.

MR. ELA: I would rather see if a 

product comes to market. I would rather see a 

manufacturer petition and then have to justify 

that that material does break down in all 

environments, that it is fully biodegradable, 

that it is not a pollutant and have that go 

through the petition process and put the onus on 

the manufacturer to show that to you all, rather 

than kind of coming at it from the backwards way.

So we're in favor of delisting and 

then very open to a petition saying hey, we've 

got a, you know, we've got a great product out 

here. Let's put it back on.

MEMBER PETREY: Great. Thank you, 

Steve.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure Nate. Steve, 

welcome back. Thank you for your time today. 

Thanks for representing NOC's questions. I 

actually want you to put your farmer hat on. I 

want to ask you, because that was one of the 

written comments by a bio group. We need to hear 

a farmer perspective on do farmers want acres on 

certificates. So you being a farmer, I'd like 

for you to respond to that question.

MR. ELA: Yeah, it's a great -- I mean 

and it's one I wrestle with because as a specialty 

crop farmer, you know, very different than what 

you do in terms of acreages. I mean we have lot 

sizes that range from, you know, a quarter acre 

of trees up to, you know, ten acres and certainly 

Washington would be, you know, even larger.

But I think overall, we're fine. We 

think that -- I think that acreage reporting is 

probably a good thing. It's a great way to be 
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able to backtrack and look at, you know, 

production versus acreage. I do get a little bit 

of heartburn, you know, at least with tree fruits 

we're very stagnant, you know. We have things 

in the ground for years, so it's easy to keep 

quarter acre numbers straight.

From a vegetable grower, I could see 

there would be a lot of heartburn. And so I do, 

I think I'm -- I am not in support of acreage 

requirements, but I think let's have a minimum 

size and let's look at risk assessment, you know. 

If you're a market gardener with one row of 

lettuce, what's your risk of fraud? Pretty darn 

low, you know. 

But if you're a big grain grower or 

I'm producing, you know, pallets and pallets of 

apples, you know, higher risk. So I think 

acreage reporting with some sanity and 

reasonableness is a good thing.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you. May 

I ask one follow-up to that?
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MR. ELA: Absolutely.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, and I really 

appreciate that statement, and that makes me 

think when we talk about small farmers and family 

legacy and preserving that generational 

succession, that sometimes that business 

information is really critical for the lasting 

succession of that family transfer of that land. 

So with that information in mind, do you believe 

that it's important for small farmers to know how 

much production they have, what are their costs 

of production for that, and their net, you know, 

income off that land.

That I think factors into their 

robust, diverse crop rotations, does that make 

sense, to plant what I'm planning. Does that 

nitrogen carryover, you know, maybe I'm not 

counting it for this year. I might go backwards, 

but I'm, you know, going forwards, two steps 

forward the next crop. 

Do you think that information really 
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is important? Are we doing a disservice to say 

we should not be telling farmers this is really 

important, just because of that preservation of 

the family farm?

MR. ELA: Well, I mean what you just 

said is we all know that -- I mean I've never had 

a problem with organic recordkeeping because it's 

records that help me with my farm, period. Yes, 

sometimes I don't want to put the pencil to the 

paper in the heat of the moment, but yet that 

data is good data for good business in general.

And so yeah, I think, you know, we do 

need to know. We need to be good business 

people. I mean a family farm's not going to 

survive if it's not economic, and so being able 

to document those economics and being able to 

document what works and what doesn't, and whether 

it's nitrogen fertilizers or, you know, the 

effect of climate change on a farm and, you know, 

that this no longer is producing well.

I mean we've taken trees out that are 
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too frost-sensitive now for our area, and that's 

all based on recordkeeping. So I agree with you. 

I think -- I hear so many people push back on 

recordkeeping, and it's a tough one and I hate 

it, and I hate it for food safety. I hate all 

that, but yet it makes me -- I make better 

decisions based on it usually.

So it's a good thing even though I 

dislike it. It's not what I want to do at the 

end of the day.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you for 

your candor. Appreciate it, Steve.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Steve? All right.

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MR. ELA: It's real good seeing you 

all. Next week, take care.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Bye-bye, take 

care. Next up we have Phil Larocca, followed by 

Terry Shistar, and then we're going to take a 

break. Phil, please go ahead. You're still 
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muted, Phil.

(Pause.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not quite there.

MS. ARSENAULT: There we are.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, you're back 

to muted. You were unmuted for a minute there.

MR. LAROCCA: How about that?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: There we go. The 

floor is yours.

MR. LAROCCA: As I was going to say, 

I'm a bit disheveled this morning because I 

realized about ten minutes ago that I was looking 

at Eastern Standard Time rather than Pacific, and 

I'm not really computer savvy. So it was 

absolute stress period to get on this call.

At any rate, my name's Phil Larocca. 

I'm the owner and winemaker of Larocca Vineyards. 

I've been an organic farmer for 50 plus years 

being the loose cat. I also sit as chairman of 

the board for the CCOF. I'm on the California 

Organic Product Advisory Board. I sit on the 
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state of California's OCal Board, and that's a 

board that we established through organic rules 

and certification standards for certifying 

cannabis.

As I mentioned, I've been around for 

a long time and I was extremely proud of being an 

organic farmer then, as I am today. So in the 

early days, I was very much involved in the 

development of the NOP. I attended every meeting 

and what's interesting is I sat through hours and 

hours of conversation about origin of livestock, 

access to pasture, whether it poultry, dairy, 

beef, cow. 

So we're still listening to the same 

thing, porches, no porches. So what I'd like to 

say here is to the Board, integrity is what it's 

all about, and there's been a part of the industry 

which at times I have to agree with. I said 

well, if we flex the rule a little bit, we'll get 

more people involved in organic production.

And any time we have, whether it be 
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one square foot of land or 5,000 acres of land 

that is being chemical-free, no pesticides, 

herbicides in a particular glyphosate being put 

underground, so that's a good thing. But the 

bottom line is this industry revolves around the 

word "integrity." That's what made me be proud 

then and now as an organic farmer. In the long 

term, if we lose the concept of integrity, we're 

not really gaining any ground.

I've been involved in numerous 

studies, my own in our case when we ran our own 

study as to what people think when they're buying 

organic. They really think that they're getting 

an honest to good true product, free of 

synthetics, etcetera, etcetera. I remember 

years ago part of the study that we did at CCOF, 

where we asked people if they felt it was okay 

for them to pay an extra amount of money if they 

were buying something organic.

The answer was always the same. 

Absolutely, I'm willing to pay the extra amount 
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of money as long as it true is organic. So I 

guess my plea here is just when making decisions 

on new additions to the National List or taking 

something off, keep the concept of integrity of 

what this industry is all about.

Now I want to welcome you all to 

California. You're in the best part of the 

state, Northern California. If you have the 

time, we have high taxes and we're in a drought. 

But we're a great state and we're a great 

agricultural state, and to quote my 

granddaughter, we're an amazing agricultural 

state when it comes to organic production. So 

thank you for your time.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're looking 

forward to joining you.

MR. LAROCCA: Absolutely.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

Phil? All right. Well, I really appreciate your 

comments today Phil. Thank you, and looking 

forward to seeing you next week.
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MR. LAROCCA: Absolutely.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Terry Shistar, and then we're going to break. 

After the break, we'll have Jay Feldman, Marie 

Burcham and Maddie Kempner. Terry, please go 

ahead.

MS. SHISTAR: My name is Terry 

Shistar, and I'm on the Board of Directors of 

Beyond Pesticides. In choosing the name Beyond 

Pesticides, we recognize the moving beyond 

pesticides means moving beyond pests. The 

division of organisms into good guys and bad 

guys, beneficials and pests, is an oversimplified 

and mistaken concept of the way the world works. 

It is also counterproductive in agriculture and 

in general living on the earth, which means 

living with other organisms. 

Recognizing the importance of the 

diversity of life means promoting organic 

agriculture and land management, which depend on 

maintaining biodiversity and a balanced 
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ecosystem. You're already at the next one. 

That's in your role on the NOSB. Your role on 

the NOSB is important to transforming 

agriculture.

The NOSB draft letter to the Secretary 

of Agriculture Vilsack is an excellent primer on 

how organic agriculture responds to the climate 

emergency. However, you need to stress the need 

for USDA to promote conversion to organic 

farming. More important than the questions posed 

by NOP are questions concerning how USDA programs 

can assist organic producers and those seeking to 

convert to organic.

The draft letter addresses these as 

well. It also points out the resiliency of 

organic agriculture. In view of the climate 

benefits of organic and the incentives inherent 

in organic marketing, the real question is

whether USDA will abandon its promotion of 

chemical-intensive agriculture, supported by the 

biotech and chemical industry, in favor of 
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wholehearted support for organic agriculture. 

Because despite the astronomical 

growth in organic consumption in the United 

States, conversion to organic agriculture lags 

behind. USDA could and should make adoption of 

organic and climate smart practices a 

prerequisite for receiving the benefits of its 

programs.

Next slide, please. Elsewhere in 

your agenda, next oh. We face a number of 

important issues, including peroxylactic acid. 

While a promising antimicrobial in meat 

processing has not yet been supported by 

independent science as required by OFPA, in an 

examination of ion exchange the Handling 

Committee learned that it results in chemical 

change.

Therefore, organic foods such as apple 

juice or sugar that have been processed with ion 

exchange are synthetic. Such synthetic foods 

must be allowed only if the NOSB has reviewed 
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them and placed them on the National List. 

The consideration of bio-based 

biodegradable mulch film is part of a larger 

issue of the use of plastic in organic production 

and handling. Awareness is growing about the 

impacts of plastic and the microplastic particles 

to which it degrades. BBMF should not be 

relisted.

Moreover, the NOSB should initiate 

action to eliminate all uses of plastic in 

organic production. Can you move to the next 

slide anyway? 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Kyla 

has a question for you. Please go ahead, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Hi Terry. So I have a 

question about ion exchange. So you said in your 

written comments and just hearing your oral 

comments that food produced through ion exchange 

should also be considered synthetic. Water is 

one of the most common things to be purified 

through ion exchange. Would you consider water 
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that's gone through purification through ion 

exchange to be synthetic?

MS. SHISTAR: I think that well, if 

you're talking about softened water, if you've 

run your hard water through water softener, then 

yeah, maybe it should be. But all that means is 

that it should be on -- that it should be 

considered by the NOSB and placed on the National 

List. It doesn't mean that it should be 

prohibited. Softened water is, you know, can be 

a --

(Audio interference.)

MS. SHISTAR: So yes, I think it's 

something to consider.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Terry? All right, thank you for 

your comments. We're going to break. I'm sorry, 

Rick is that a question? you're muted right now, 

Rick. 

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay, am I on?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: The question that 

comes up, we've talked a lot about limiting 

plastic from agriculture. My concern is, and I'm 

an avocado farmer, all of my water lines are 

plastic, and I think that's true for lots and 

lots of agriculture. So how do we get around 

that? Are we going to go back to cast iron pipes 

or, you know, what's your thought on that Terry?

MS. SHISTAR: My thought is that you, 

as the NOSB, need to develop a plan and decide 

what are the priority places to eliminate 

plastic. I think places where the plastic breaks 

down and gets into the environment, those are 

high priorities. Probably the lesser priority 

is the -- is the PVC pipes. But there's -- I 

think plastic in packaging is probably also a 

higher priority. But you know, I understand. 

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yeah, I mean --

MS. SHISTAR: Plastic has become part 

of our lives. It's hard to eliminate.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. No, it is a 
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real conundrum. I mean everyone talked about 

we've got to get plastic out of agriculture, and 

there's a millions and millions of pounds of 

plastic which also has contact with water, which 

has contact with all of our organic products. So 

it's a very complicated process.

MS. SHISTAR: Yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Rick. 

All right, thank you Terry. I appreciate your 

comments and for you joining us today. We're 

going to take a break, and Michelle if you're 

there, just to do a little math. Coming back at 

ten after the hour, making sure I'm getting that 

right, and the first person when we're back is 

going to be Jay Feldman, followed by Marie 

Burcham and then Maddie Kempner. 

MS. ARSENAULT: I don't, I don't want 

to contradict you, but five after would be a 15 

minute break. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Okay, 
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five after the hour. There we go.

(Whereupon at 1:49 p.m., the aboveentitled matter went off the record and resumed 

at 2:05 p.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Five after the 

hour. I think we're ready to get started again. 

This next group of folks, we're going to start 

with Jay Feldman, followed by Marie Burcham and 

then Maddie Kempner. So Jay if you're there,

please go ahead. 

MR. FELDMAN: Hello everybody. I'm 

Jay Feldman, executive director of Beyond 

Pesticides. Thank you all for your service. Our 

written analysis of the materials on the National 

List of Allowed and Prohibited Substances under 

the Board's review utilizes the three pillars 

that are foundational and integral to the review.

Protection of health, meaning no 

adverse health effects from cradle to grave of 

each material; compatibility with organic 

practices, meaning impacts on biological systems 
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in nature and a holistic analysis and 

essentiality; proof that the National List 

materials are essential in light of all available 

alternative practices and inputs.

The history of the Board and the 

legislative history of the Organic Foods 

Production Act and the sunset process requires an 

assumption that the material is being taken off 

the list and only relisted with a rigorous 

process that makes a determination with careful 

consideration of the three pillars.

This process of careful scrutiny is 

the backbone of continuous improvement in 

organic. Why is this so important? First, 

consumers, supporters of organic do not generally 

want synthetics in the food. Second, organic 

consumers and farmers, at least the ones who 

spearheaded the adoption of the law today embrace 

its embedded values and principles, do not want 

a food supply that loads up the environment with 

synthetics. 
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Third, organic consumers are not 

interested in shortcuts in handling or processing 

or elements of the chemical-intensive market that 

advanced reliance on synthetics. With organic, 

we have carved out a way that takes the best and 

rejects the worst from our ag history. Whether 

we're talking about processing the express 

prevention and humane conditions.

So the goal of the National List is to 

ratchet down the materials as much as possible, 

and in the process incentivize the development of 

new approaches, methods and inputs. In so doing, 

we establish, protect and grow the organic 

integrity. With this approach, there are many 

examples of a need for improved Board review, 

which goes directly to public trust in the 

organic label.

Themes that emerge and should be 

rejected in the review before you include 

bioplastic mulch, you heard about; chlorhexidine, 

symptomatic of a resistance issue without 
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adequate production annotation, allowance of 606 

non-organic inputs without an analysis of the 

chemical-intensive production processes. Carbon 

dioxide petition that does not meet the standards 

of review required. Polyoxin D without a full 

essentiality review for broad spectrum fungicide 

thus attacks the very basis of organic 

ecosystems, and even copper sulfate, no agreedupon guide for a farmer for protection 

annotation.

At Beyond Pesticides, we see organic 

as transformative change that is needed to meet 

the existential crises associated with petroleumbased inputs in agriculture, resulting in the 

health crisis, biodiversity collapse and the 

climate emergency. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thanks for your 

comments, Jay. Any questions from the Board. 

Amy, followed by Brian. Amy, please go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure. Thanks Nate. 

Thank you, Jay. I appreciate your comments here 
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today and written ones just provided. I have a 

general question. You mentioned and that's our 

framework is looking at essentiality when we're 

evaluating substances for the National List. 

Another comment brought up an interesting point, 

and as a farmer, I feel definitely the challenges 

with supply chain constraints, you know, the last 

couple of years in just having things available.

So what's your general thoughts on how 

do we balance, you know, the new era that we're 

living in with trying to, you know, approve 

substances based on essentiality, and I also 

understand about supply chain constraints and 

offering tools for producers to continue to farm 

successfully organically?

MR. FELDMAN: Great question, and I 

think this is a question general to society, 

right, that we're having supply chain issues. I 

mean we, despite what may be the common 

conventional thinking out there, we are a 

flexible people at Beyond Pesticides, and to the 
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extent that we need exceptions, you know, given 

certain conditions and they are time-limited, you 

know, and we hold on to our values and our 

principles while making these exceptions for 

time-limited, you know, in a time-limited 

perspective, I think we benefit.

However, I should point out that 

there's a plus side for organic in this era of 

limited supplies and increasing petroleum costs, 

where in fact we're seeing where we do conversion 

and transition work. We're seeing, as you have 

seen, the high cost of fertilizer, right, and 

synthetic fertilizer is the mainstay of 

conventional agriculture. 

To the extent that we are reducing 

that input and replacing it with still expensive 

but nevertheless alternative organic inputs, 

we're stabilizing the price of organic relative 

to the increasing prices in the market. So we 

can no longer compare organic, I don't think, to 

old price structures. We have to compare an 
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overall, unfortunate overall increase in pricing.

But I want to, I want to say that we 

are flexible where there are time-limited 

exemptions, waivers or what have you needed to 

sustain organic for a limited time and to keep us 

on track with our values. Sure, we're definitely 

willing to consider those kinds of situations.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you Jay. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up Brian. 

Please go ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thanks Jay. 

Just a question about the Polyoxin D. Most of 

the comments that we have, especially from the 

farmers and growers, are very enthusiastic about 

this material because it's -- it seems to be more 

effective than most of the other organic controls 

that are available. Just if you'd just say a few 

more words about what your concerns are for it, 

I'd appreciate that.

MR. FELDMAN: Yeah. I guess our, the 

main issue we have and the point I was trying to 
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bring up in our comments is that, you know, we 

don't feel that, and you know, I served on the 

Board and Polyoxin D was on the agenda then as it 

is now. We don't feel that there's an adequate 

essentiality review. So th at, you know, when I 

talk about the three pillars, these are all, you 

know, areas of review that have to be looked at 

in coordination. 

It's not, it's not a menu of choices. 

It's so when we say "essentiality needs to be 

considered," that is one of the pillars without 

which we don't have a compatible product. 

So just on the basis of essentiality 

alone, I think we're at the point where 

according to the TR, crop rotation, crop nutrient 

management, sanitation to remove disease vectors, 

selection of resistant species, beneficial 

antagonistic bacteria monitoring, all that is 

part of what organic is, the core of organic, 

cannot be replaced by an -- and shouldn't be 

replaced by an individual material.
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In addition to that, I mention this 

impact on biological systems. Not only is there 

a problem with broad spectrum impacts, it reduces 

the ability for biocontrol. I mean you guys know 

all about biocontrol on the farm. We don't want 

to do anything in an organic compatible system 

with inputs that -- where we invite in inputs 

that disrupt that ability for biological control 

and ecosystem services.

Look, my last point. You guys are on 

the leading edge of ecosystem services. You 

can't go to a farm meeting anymore without any 

farmer talking about ecosystem services. We all 

know that. We have learned, conventional ag is 

learning from organic. When we introduce a 

product like this, we're no longer on the leading 

edge in teaching conventional ag how to manage 

without a product that has these broad spectrum 

effects.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks very much.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah Jay, thanks. 

When you were talking about the essentiality a 

pillar, and you named off some of the things that 

are crop rotation and various other mechanical 

and cultural practices that are required within 

the practice standard, that are reviewed within 

someone's OSP, I guess I'm just wondering if 

those are inherent in the review and are required 

to be done, and we are also hearing from farmers 

that they are still needing this material, like 

how does that not pass the essentiality test?

MR. FELDMAN: Yes. This is the 

quintessential question that every NOSB member 

struggles with, because we're constantly being 

asked as a NOSB member to use something because 

I, Farmer A, uses it and relies on it. What we 

have to do as NOSB members, I believe, is step 

back from that, widen the lens and ask, and this 

is where the TR is extremely helpful, at least 
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for me it was.

We ask what is available out there. 

Where are there examples of their efficacy and 

their alternative and their profitability, 

etcetera, and then separate yourself from that 

individual farmer. Of course, we're going to 

hear from the farmer that needs it. Those are 

the farmers that are going to show up. Our job 

to be on the leading edge and to advance the 

growth of organic, I think, is to bring in other 

information about viability, profitability and 

integrate that information aside from the 

anecdotal stories from individual farmers.

It is difficult, you know. Farmers 

that are reliant on materials, I think, make a 

good case that they need it within the system 

that they're utilizing. Our job is to help 

facilitate these alternative methodologies that 

you reiterated, that have to be supported and

elevated, so that we no longer rely on these 

inputs. That's how I look at it. Thank you.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Jay?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jay, I have a 

question for you. In written comments, Beyond 

Pesticides has mentioned leakage, and in your 

comments or leakage of resins into organic foods. 

Could you speak a little bit about any studies or 

evidence you have that that occurs that isn't 

theoretical?

MR. FELDMAN: Oh my gosh. There are 

almost too many to mention. I would -- if you 

don't mind, I would definitely like to provide 

that for you guys in writing.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

MR. FELDMAN: I mean the leaching is, 

you know, I work on the pesticide side of the 

equation and packaging, and this has been a real, 

like Terry mentioned earlier in terms of plastic 

packaging, a tough nut to crack and we'd really 

like to work with the Board on that. So we will 
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provide you with the data.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Great, and 

apologies if I didn't get that right. Just on 

ion exchange, not on plastics.

MR. FELDMAN: Oh okay. Same thing 

there. We will, we will get you what we have.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

MR. FELDMAN: Thank you so much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Marie Burcham, followed by Maddie Kempner and 

then Beth Rota.

MS. BURCHAM: Hi, can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please 

go ahead.

MS. BURCHAM: Good afternoon members 

of the NOSB and NOP. My name is Burcham. I'm 

an attorney and the policy director for 

Cornucopia Institute. I just have a general 

comment for the NOSB today. To better support 

the organic marketplace, we need to improve 

integrity, transparency by committing to 
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continuous improvement. Without continuous 

improvement in standards, enforcement and organic 

research, OFPA's purpose cannot be met. Further, 

organic integrity requires that loopholes, 

inconsistencies and vacuums within the organic 

standards be addressed continuously as well. 

Cornucopia connects with organic 

consumers on a regular basis. We hear several 

themes voiced again and again by dedicated 

organic buyers, including concerns that organic 

seal that does not mean what consumers believe it 

does, despite displays often being informed by 

the USDA's own marketing materials.

We also hear concerns that industrial 

farming methods that are linked to (audio 

interference) welfare, environmental harm and 

human health risks are being used in organic 

farming. There is also confusion about how 

widely varying production practices can show the 

same label and frustration due to misinformation 

being peddled by anti-organic propaganda. 
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Cornucopia hears from organic farmers 

as well, and their concerns echo the organic 

consumers. Often organic farmers face difficult 

challenges competing against corporations and 

conventional brands, using the organic label for 

a quick buck. We encourage you to provide better

opportunities for farmers and dedicated organic 

consumers to be involved in the public process. 

Without both farmers and consumers, there is no 

label.

The NOSB has vowed to the organic 

program's continuous improvement as well. Your 

recommendations can help address the serious 

threats to the organic label. We ask you to 

address these inconsistencies, regulatory 

vacuums and new and evolving research in organic 

agriculture. This should include, but not be 

limited to addressing organic transition issues, 

recent certifier survey on policies of 430 

transition period's serious inconsistencies. 

These inconsistencies encourage bad 
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actors to cheat the system, pushing the industry 

as a whole away from the goal of continuous 

improvement. Tackling the issue of hydroponics 

and container production, as of right now this 

production method has no standards. Certifiers 

will have to pick up the pieces. Approaching the 

National List with the goal of moving substances 

off the list is also important, so that the 

industry is continuous improving towards 

environmental resilience.

Addressing the regulatory vacuums, 

the updating of all recommendations were needed 

and discussing problems within the existing 

standards is also very important. A growing body 

of scientific research also shows farming systems 

designed and managed according to underlying 

organic principles can meet the food needs of our 

society, while also addressing our serious 

environmental and social issues.

Despite the USDA's insistence that 

organic is just a marketing label, it is in fact 
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an alternative to the extractive and harmful 

practices that abound in conventional 

agriculture. The stakes are very high, not only 

to embody continuous improvement to succeed and 

grow. Thank you for your time and efforts in 

moving the organic marketplace forward.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

your comments and joining us today. Any 

questions?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have some 

semantic question for you, and that is that when 

you talk about the dedicated organic consumer, 

how to do we reach out to the casual organic 

consumer and improve their participation? It 

seems like we do hear quite a bit from the 

dedicated organic consumers, but we still live in 

a world where organic food is pretty 

inaccessible. There's the price, it's not on 

every shelf, especially and when you go to rural 

America. How do we grow that pot of folks who 
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see organic as a solution and worthy of their 

participation? Can you speak to that a little 

bit?

MS. BURCHAM: Yeah, I'd love to. We 

have so many ideas in that area, as you can 

imagine. The casual organic consumer is also 

hurt by these issues of a lack of consistency and 

also that anti-organic propaganda, which is --

unfortunately seems to be getting stronger and 

stronger as organic gains in popularity.

So we hope to see more speaking back 

to the anti-organic propaganda using the actual 

science and research that's out there, fact-based 

advocacy for these farming systems. We hope to 

see more support from the USDA and from Congress 

quite frankly, coming up into the Farm Bill 

season. 

As far as getting these more casual 

organic consumers or people who don't consume 

organic food at all more involved in the 

marketplace, there's a lot of practical solutions 
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and one of the big things we'd like to see, which 

is again a Farm Bill issue probably, is having 

subsidies be more towards climate-friendly 

practices, having organic always be climate 

smart, things like this, making sure that organic 

farmers have programs that are supporting them, 

technical assistance, that makes their price 

point more reasonable for everyday consumers, and 

also just putting funds and resources towards 

research that supports these practices, and 

making that more accessible to consumers.

Unfortunately, we do hear from 

consumers that are more casual that they're just 

confused. They're confused by all the third 

party labels, they're confused by the messaging 

from different parts of industry including 

conventional ag, and it's just a challenge to 

help clear that confusion. I think we just need 

fact-based, science-based research that is 

accessible to consumers and very clear 

communication about the benefits of organic food.
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And then also just assistance, 

programs to make sure everyone has access to this 

incredible food.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. I 

really appreciate your comments. Thank you for 

joining us today. Well, sorry. Mindee has a 

question for you. Please go ahead Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you for 

those comments, Marie. I'm curious if you could 

see value if the organic community spent more 

time talking about organic's unique position in 

democracy and its unique public-private 

partnership as a regulatory framework?

MS. BURCHAM: Yeah. I think that 

would be an interesting way to hook into it 

actually, and I think that is one reason the antiorganic propaganda is actually gaining in steam 

right now, because there's fears that there's a 

public-private partnership that's being 

represented here that is growing and can't be 

ignored anymore, and it's a good representation 
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of also having production practices be regulated, 

which is -- can be scary to some of the big 

industry, conventional industry folks.

So I mean that sounds like an amazing 

idea Mindee. We would love to see that move 

forward and have that extended out in more areas 

of agriculture.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

that question Mindee, and thank you Marie. Any 

other questions? 

MEMBER D'MORE: Yeah, this is Jerry. 

I had my hand up and it disappeared.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

MEMBER D'MORE: I beg you pardon.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh I'm sorry. Go 

ahead, please.

MEMBER D'MORE: You know, thank you 

very much Marie. This may be a very hard one to 

answer, but if there's -- are there two, three, 

four line items of cause for the term "antiorganic propaganda"? I mean, you know, being way 
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old and knowing that, you know, there's a price 

premium, that we've dealt with for a long time. 

But the use of the term anti-organic 

propaganda, can we find a source towards what 

drives people in that direction?

MS. BURCHAM: You mean what drives 

consumers towards --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MEMBER D'MORE: No, that drives, 

drives this conversation that we're having to 

identify anti-organic propaganda. Who's 

generating that and to what purpose?

MS. BURCHAM: Yeah. I don't want 

to -- I mean I could -- I have a lot of inside 

speculation.

MEMBER D'MORE: I'm sorry. I don't 

want anec -- no, I'm sorry. I'm not asking you 

to identify those who. I just want to know what 

are the -- if possible, what are the two or three 

core issues that drives people in that direction?

MS. BURCHAM: Yeah. I mean the anti-
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org propaganda that we see, I would say that it's 

most often that pesticides are not harmful, one.

MEMBER D'MORE: Okay.

MS. BURCHAM: The GMOs are not 

harmful, and harmful is of course a very broad 

and subjective term. We could like talk forever 

about what harmful means, right? But and also 

just that cultivation practices that organic uses 

have no benefit. 

Another thing that I'm seeing more and 

more often, just like in the past couple of years, 

is this idea that, you know, we can't feed the 

world with these production methods. It's an 

elitist fable, which I think is of the things 

that I see propaganda on, I think is the one that 

I think we could use the most actual discussion 

on internally within the organic marketplace, 

because I think there are problems there. Not 

that we can't feed the world with these 

production practices, but the inaccessibility 

issue.
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But also the other ones. There is so 

much research now showing the harmful effects of 

chemically intensive agriculture and I think as 

that research was built, the voices in opposition 

to it have been having to also amplify. I think 

we just -- we just need to be more cognizant as 

a marketplace that that is extremely strong out 

there, that consumers are hearing, are hearing 

that we're liars or literally I get told on a 

regular basis that I am lying when I send 

scientific studies and things out regarding to 

this as part of my work.

MEMBER D'MORE: Right, right.

MS. BURCHAM: It's very hard to speak 

back to that, but I think we just need to continue 

saying hey, this is fact-based. We have the 

research. We would like more research, because 

certainly I think more research is always 

beneficial, and getting the support from the USDA 

about those facts is also important as well.

MEMBER D'MORE: Thank you very much 
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for that. I'm glad I asked the question, because 

when you got into things like feeding the world, 

I think there is a point there and I think we do 

need discussion. I would broadly say that antiorganic propaganda might also be just from those 

who feel threatened by some of what we do, and 

that's not bad on us or bad on them, but it's an 

identifier as to where we might look to have 

commonality and discussion. So thank you very 

much.

MS. BURCHAM: Yeah, thank you Jerry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

fielding all these questions, Marie. We really 

appreciate your time and expertise today. 

MS. BURCHAM: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Maddie Kempner, followed by Beth Rota and then 

Michael Croster. Please go ahead.

MS. KEMPNER: Hi everyone. My name 

is Maddie Kempner. I'm the policy director for 

the Northeast Organic Farming Association of 
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Vermont or in Upper Vermont. I really want to 

thank all the Board members for your hard work 

and for the opportunity to provide comments 

today. I'm going to comment on two products 

today. The first is really to hydroponic and 

container production, and the second is in 

response to the proposal regarding oversight and 

traceability infrastructure.

VRF, which is our certification 

program here at NOFA, is part of an informal group 

of certification, education and policy 

organizations that continue to agree that soil is 

the foundation of organic agriculture, and who 

strive to achieve consistency in our 

organizational policies and certification 

decisions.

Specifically, we agree that soil is 

the foundation is the organic agriculture, that 

a full reading of OFPA 6513 and the regulations 

require that organic plants be grown in the soil, 

and that aeroponic, hydroponic and crops grown to 
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maturity in containers do not comply with OFPA 

6513. 

As certifiers, we can't achieve 

consistency in our policies and decisions until 

the NOP goes through the formal rulemaking 

process for greenhouse production standards, 

which were recommended by the NOSB nearly 20 

years ago.

And we can't achieve consistency in 

our policies and decisions until containers go 

through the process of NOSB discussion, 

recommendation and NOP rulemaking. We agree that 

certain crops grown in containers, including 

spouts, microgreens, spotters, transplants and 

metriums have historically been certified organic 

and should continue to be allowed to be certified 

organic moving forward.

We urge the NOSB to activate the 

latent agenda item field and greenhouse container 

production, which was listed on the NOSB work 

agenda grid from 2017 until spring 2021, as on 
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hold but recently disappeared from that list. We 

would happily provide detailed input as to the 

Board movement of this agenda item, with the 

shared goal of improved transparency and 

consistency, and bringing us into greater 

alignment with the global organic movement, 

including the recent iPhone position on 

hydroponics.

Secondly, I would like to comment on 

the proposal related to fraud prevention and 

modernization of organic traceability 

infrastructure. VOF would comply with adding a 

bridge to organic certificates to help address 

fraud in the industry. However, it's important 

to ensure that this system works for small, 

diversified producers.

A typical vegetable farm in Vermont 

might grow more than 71 different crops on about 

50 acres of land. These producers often sell 

direct to consumers through FCSA or farm stand 

model with some amount of product being sold to 
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local restaurants and coops. 

Calculating the acreage of 71 

different crops, which are often are more 

appropriately measured in growth feet in many 

cases will add time and cost to the inspection 

and certification of these types of operations, 

while not necessarily resulting in less fraud, 

since the majority of sales are direct to 

consumers.

So in order for this requirement to 

work, we really need some flexibility and 

appropriate rules to allow small, diversified 

farmers to meet this requirement, and we propose 

allowing mixed vegetables to be an acceptable 

category on certificates. Another option would 

be to require acreage for crops that are grown 

above a certain acreage, over two acres for 

example, or are sold as a commodity or the sale 

of which exceed a certain total value, for 

example, over $20,000 to be a threshold for that.

Whatever decision you come up with, it 
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needs to work for those small and diversified 

producers, who would have a significant burden 

estimating the percentages of an acre each crop 

they grow, while not having this information be 

useful or actually contribute to deterring fraud. 

Thank you so much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thanks for your 

comments. Amy has a question for you. Oh, you 

are muted Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Oh shoot --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MEMBER BRUCH: Anyway, well thank 

you. Thank you Maddie. I appreciate your 

comments and also the written ones. I have a 

question just in regards to some of these small 

producers and how -- where OSP handles 

certification with products and crops. Is the 

OSP, because I've read certain certifiers, based 

on written comments, are still requiring that 

information to be put into an OSP, but not 

necessarily on a certificate at this point in 
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time, just what crops are being grown and 

estimating acres? How does your organization 

handle that information just within the OSP?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Maddie might have 

been frozen. Can you still hear us Maddie? 

Shoot. 

MEMBER BRUCH: Maybe we'll come back 

to her.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah, we'll come 

back at the end, yeah. Good question Amy. 

Please just remember that and we'll circle back 

again.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

up we have Beth Rota, followed by Michael Croster 

and then Heather Spalding. Beth, please go 

ahead.

MS. ROTA: Hello everyone. I'm Beth 

Rota, Organic Program Director of Quality 

Certification Services organic requirements. 

About 20 percent of our clients are outside the 
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U.S., giving us a unique international 

perspective. QCS is the proud recipient of NOP's 

Organic Integrity Award in 2020, and a Data 

Quality Award in 2022.

My thoughts today focus on the work of 

the Certification, Accreditation and Compliance 

Subcommittee. Since I started working in organic 

certification 15 years, the process has increased 

in complexity, paperwork, calculations, time and 

expense. It is more robust and more consistent. 

Our continued progress should ensure that organic 

certification remains accessible to a diverse 

sector.

We do not support requiring crop 

acreage on organic certificates. The standard 

should promote diverse classes of products and 

not inadvertently penalize diverse and (audio 

interference) operations with petty paperwork 

burdens or overly-extensive certification 

logistics. Oversight by certifiers should 

continue a systems approach that uses auditing to 
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test if those systems are working.

Don't forget that the regulations 

already required detailed crop production 

records, and that certifiers have access to audit 

those records. Mechanisms for oversight should 

protect the operators' proprietary business 

information and discourage policing based on 

incomplete information. Alternatively, funding 

and facilitation of qualified certifiers supply 

chain audits, as well as more organic-specific 

yield data would help certifiers be more 

effective in detecting and determining fraud.

QCS supports a proposal for technical 

support for the NOSB because it will help members 

make informed decisions. Technical support can 

fill in information gaps beyond the expertise of 

committee members, and limited perspectives of 

change from public comments. We trust NOSB to 

best determine where the support should come 

from. QCS applauds the suggestion for future 

work (audio interference) for certifiers to 
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compare accreditation findings, and agrees that 

more work is needed to address (audio 

interference) certification practices.

I see several down sides to universal 

templates, universally mandated templates will 

not be able to capture the diversity and 

complexity of all organic operations, and could 

limit continual improvement over time. That 

said, QCS supports collaboration and knowledge 

sharing to develop sources, to include 

certification in inspection processes and 

welcomes further clarification of the standards 

specifically for mass balance and traceability 

audit parameters.

A huge thanks to members of the NOSB 

for sharing your time, effort and hearts towards 

the common goal of robust and meaningful organic 

labeling, and we look forward to seeing all of 

you in person next week.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we you Beth. 

Brian has a question for you.
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MS. ROTA: Sure.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thanks Beth. 

I've read and heard a few times that the point 

that crop acreage should be proprietary and there 

could be some disadvantage of that, of making 

that public. I don't understand what the problem 

with that is, and maybe you could explain that a 

little bit.

MS. ROTA: Well, I think that a 

business might consider that part of their 

business information, the specific production 

records that is available to the certifier, but 

that might not be information that they want to 

make available to everybody involved.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Well just as a 

follow-up to that, if that information could 

help, for instance, you know, other certifiers 

and buyers identify fraud, how is the value to 

the individual farmer of this proprietary 

information, which many, many farmers don't think 

is a special proprietary bit of information, how 
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does that outweigh the importance of being able 

to identify fraud?

MS. ROTA: Yeah. I think that 

there's a lot of information when we just think 

about fraud in general, you know, whether it's 

personal tax information or, you know, all kinds 

of information that could be used across lots of 

industries that would be considered proprietary 

that could be used to identify fraud. I just 

don't think that that is the best methodology to 

get at it. I think there's other tools and 

resources that are going to be more targeted.

It's something I've seen sometimes in 

the past 15 years is sometimes there's one 

operation who's competing with another operation, 

and they'll file complaints to the certifier, and 

we'll investigate these complaints. We'll put a 

lot of time into it, and it turns out to just be, 

you know, competitive industries complaining 

about each other.

We don't want to open a door for 
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policing, right, if one operation policing 

another. We do have mechanisms in place to 

oversee operations, and I think that certifiers 

can continue to work together and I think can 

facilitate more targeted, cross-certifier supply 

chain audits is the way to do it. 

If we can make it part of the process, 

if there's funding available for it and 

facilitation available for it, and we are doing 

it way more than we're doing it now, that alone 

will detect and deter fraud, because any 

operation could be subject to that in a way that 

we're not seeing now. Right now, we have 

regulations that require a certain percentage of 

additional inspections, a certain percentage of 

sampling done by all certifiers.

But we don't have any requirement for 

cross-investigations for supply chain audits. I 

think that having those be part of the standards 

and having the resources to enable certifiers to 

do them and work together to do them could go a 
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really long way in meeting these objectives.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thank you 

very much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Big applause for 

that idea, Beth, of more funding to help supply 

chain audits and cross-certifier cooperation. I 

think that is huge. One question I'd like to 

hear your thoughts on is really look at this idea 

of acres on certificates. 

We already have quite a few certifiers 

doing it, and none of have reported that there's 

any problem. They haven't reported any mass loss 

of client trust or loss of competitive edge for 

their clients. To set the stage real quick, if 

I'm an inspector working with the broker, of 

which we're about to do a lot in the near future 

due to OE, and we're saying that this is (audio 

interference) buy from 10, 20 and right now we 

look at those farms and see that they say that 

they sell corn, for example.

Then we look at the bills of lading 
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and add up that those can be reconciled. At no 

point right now is there a consistent flag to say 

how much should this farmer have been able to 

sell to this aggregator? There's no point where 

an inspector can say that this producer was only 

certified for ten acres, yet sold 50 truckloads 

o grain to this aggregator, or that this 

farmer's -- more likely the case this farmer's 

certificate was used by the aggregator as a cover 

to buy fraudulent conventional grain.

We've seen Randy Constant, we've seen 

the Cottonwood, Minnesota case, we've seen these 

big cases that are primarily in the grain space. 

So what is the tradeoff between transparency and 

the ability (audio interference) and raise red 

flags, especially on the inspector side, and 

engage in the sort of the more, the less defined 

proprietary business information?

MS. ROTA: I think those are really 

great questions. I think that you're on a bit 

of a slippery slope here, because when you're out 
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doing an inspection, I've worked in all different 

parts of those sort of patient process, including 

inspections, and the role of inspector, 

especially as defined by the USDA organic 

regulations, is to verify the information that's 

in the operation's organic system plan, is to, 

you know, verify that prohibited substances 

aren't being used, right?

There's some specific objectives for 

what an inspection should cover, and you have 

access to all of that information for the 

operation that you are inspecting. But 

regulations aren't set up for inspectors to be 

verifying information of operations that are 

(audio interference) of operations they're 

inspecting. You're doing a mass balance or a 

traceability audit for the operation that you're 

inspecting, working for that certifier, whether 

yourself or an independent.

And sure, I think that there could be 

opportunities for inspectors to identify red 
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flags, absolutely. But I don't think that that's 

the primary focus on an inspector, and again I 

think that there are other mechanisms that should 

be left to oversight in the whole supply chain, 

the certifiers cooperating with NOP and 

inspectors are a piece of that, that they should 

be limited to the operations they're inspecting.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: A very 

interesting take. I super appreciate that. Any 

other questions? Thank you very much. Looking 

forward to seeing you in California. Next up we 

have Michael Croster, followed by Heather 

Spalding and then Ray Wowryk. 

MR. CROSTER: Can you all hear me 

okay?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please 

go ahead.

MS. ARSENAULT: Michael, just hang 

on. It's Michelle, sorry. Can you just hang on 

one second, because I think you have slides do 

you not? There we go.
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MR. CROSTER: I do. I have two 

slides. Thanks, Michelle.

MS. ARSENAULT: Okay. It takes a 

minute to get them up on the screen. Thank you.

MR. CROSTER: I'm Mike Croster, the 

certification director at Crop Cooperative. We 

appreciate the work of the NOSB and the NOP to 

support organic agriculture, and thanks for the 

opportunity to speak. Let's start off with a 

question. Is this sanitizer compliant for the 

organic industry? After all, Vince Lombardi 

championship sanitizer has unheralded 

performance and is very popular in Wisconsin.

While you think, let me add that this 

product would be used without an intervening 

event, such as a water rinse. If you said this 

product is non-compliant because of the octanoic 

acid, you deserve a pat on the back. Although 

Vince Lombardi did win three NFL championships 

and 2 Super Bowl, he fumbled here for the organic 

market.
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National List no-rinse sanitizers 

include chlorine, hydrogen peroxide, peracetic 

acid, peroxyacetic acid and phosphoric acid. So 

how is the industry doing with dairy sanitizer 

compliance? It could be better. Let's look at 

some wash tags to get a better picture. 

Next slide, please. Here are three 

wash tags we got from the Chaseburg Creamery in 

Chaseburg, Wisconsin. Each has different 

information about sanitizer on it. The tag over 

at the left does not list a sanitizer at all, so 

how would an intake specialist determine 

compliance of this material? Down here on the 

bottom, we have a wash tag that does list the 

sanitizer. It's call Synergex, and Synergex 

contains peroxyoctanoic acid. That's not on the 

National List, so this tanker cannot be used for 

organic production.

And finally on top we have a material 

called AFCO 4325 that contains peroxyacetic acid 

and hydrogen peroxide. That's compliant. That 
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tanker can be received, converted to organic 

dairy products and everything is good in the 

world.

Verifying sanitizer compliance in 

inbound tankers is needed and I'm asking for 

help. Certifiers could expand their role in 

sanitizer review. This includes checking wash 

tags at receiving, discussing sanitizer materials 

at inspection and asking for producers to 

determine sanitizer compliance.

Certifiers should resist the easy 

solution of allowing water rinses to remove 

prohibited deterius. These rinses can be 

antagonistic to label instructions and the 

pasteurized milk ordinance. The ACA should 

develop and follow best practices for operations 

that receive dairy tankers. Most sanitation 

events happen at outside facilities that are not 

described in organic system plans. 

The organic industry should develop a 

universal method of documenting sanitizer 
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compliance. Wash tags make the most sense, but 

other techniques could be used. There are 

economic losses due to tanker rejections and 

environmental hardships due to resanitation 

events of empty tankers, and today I'm asking for 

the industry to look for solutions, and I'm happy 

to address any questions. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comments. Wood has a question for you.

MEMBER TURNER: Michael, I don't have 

any -- I don't have a specific question for you 

today, but I just wanted to acknowledge this 

comment is a very concrete example, and a very 

great demonstration of the kind of feedback and 

we really need from the organic community on how 

to really advance some action on sanitizers.

So I just wanted to say I really 

appreciate this, and that would encourage other 

members of the community to offer the same type 

of feedback to us, because it's very -- this is 

a very useful format. So thank you.
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MR. CROSTER: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood beat me to 

it, but I was just going to say the exact same 

thing. We've got something that we can actually 

do work with here, and the entire community can 

now hear this is maybe a question to add to NOSB, 

a question to add to the report form, something 

very useful. So thank you, Michael, for bringing 

this to our attention. Any other questions for 

Michael? 

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

Appreciate your time.

MR. CROSTER: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

Heather Spalding, followed by Ray Wowryk and then 

Jaydee Hanson. Heather, please go ahead.

MS. SPALDING: Good afternoon 

Chairman Powell-Palm and members of the NOSB. 

I'm Heather Spalding, deputy director of the 

Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association, 
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MOFGA. We appreciate the important progress that 

USDA has made with increasing support for organic 

farmers. It's really important to highlight 

progress when it happens, and I really feel that 

the NOSB forums and stakeholders have played a 

huge role in advancing so many essential programs 

and policies.

We're encouraged by the focus on 

increasing technical and financial support for 

black, indigenous and other farmers of color when 

they are seeking to engage in organic farming. 

We're encouraged about the prospects of 

finalizing the Strengthening Organic Enforcement 

rule and the proposed organic livestock and 

poultry standards, that we have flagged the need 

for important improvements to OLPS, including a 

three-year implementation time line.

We appreciate the organic and climate 

smart agriculture discussion document. Organic 

certification should automatically qualify a 

producer for climate smart programs through USDA,
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and we're encouraged by Secretary Vilsack's 

recognition of organic as a climate solution.

We hope the NOP will restore, will 

work to restore and enhance the organic cost 

share program, and advocate for the protection of 

organic farms from pesticide and genetic drift, 

and provide clear guidance on the prohibition of 

genetic engineering in organic agriculture. We 

continue to oppose hydroponic farming under the 

organic label.

In our written comments, we've 

provided a list of action items that could 

support current and prospective NOSB members and 

their service, and address the backlog of NOSB 

recommendations. We continue to urge caution 

around biodegradable, bio-based mulch film and we 

feel that the material should be delisted. Using 

a precautionary approach, the NOSB could consider 

a future petition for a safe petroleum-free 

product that fully biogrades in all environments.

We appreciate your work to address how 
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the NOP safeguards impartiality in the delivery 

of services and oversight over accredited 

certifiers, and the recommendation that NOP 

revised the risk mitigation table and incorporate 

the revisions into their procedures. 

Finally, I just want to mention again 

something I have mentioned the past several 

meetings, and it has to do with PFAS. Main is 

doing a lot to address the horrible impacts on 

farm families across the state. This is a 

national problem and organic farms are not immune 

to it. Maine's Congressional delegation is 

introducing legislation that would provide a 

safety net for farmers across the country who 

find their livelihoods at risk from PFAS 

contamination.

We're communicating with FDA as well, 

urging the Department to develop safety standards 

for all foods, and we really encourage NOSB and 

all meeting attendees to engage in this national 

discussion. Thank you so much for your time and 
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commitment.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comments, Heather. We really appreciate 

them. Any questions for Heather?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. I 

think one thing that I wanted to note about PFAS 

real quick, as we talk about the three pillars of 

organic with no GMOs, no irradiation and no 

sewage sludge, it seems incredibly -- with 

incredible foresight are written, that organics

was going to be precluded from using sewage 

sludge as we found CMS. If there's anything 

specific you'd like the Board to think about or 

anything that falls under our authority in OFPA, 

please do let us know.

All right, thank you again. Next up 

we have Ray Wowryk, followed by Jaydee Hanson and 

then Mike Dill. 

(Pause.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, there we go I 
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think. Oh nothing yet actually. No sound yet. 

Nothing yet. Yeah, we'll come back to you. All 

right. Let's jump to Jaydee Hanson. Jaydee, if 

you're there and ready to go? All right, and 

you're muted.

MR. HANSON: Okay, and I think I'm 

unmuted now.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Good to go. The 

floor is yours.

MR. HANSON: Okay. Well good 

afternoon. The Center for Food Safety has been 

closely involved with the development of the 

comments of the National Organic Coalition, and 

we wish to endorse those comments. But we also 

wish to comment more on research related to 

alternatives to BPA. 

We would urge the NOSB to treat all of 

the chemicals derived from bisphenols as 

chemicals that should be prohibited chemicals for 

organic production and organic food contact 

containers and wrappings. What we've seen is 
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that there has been a regrettable substitute in 

a unit where companies say no BPA, but they've 

shifted to substitutes that are just bad. 

Likewise, PFAS and ortho-phthalates should also 

be treated as prohibited chemicals.

The National Organic Program already 

treats nanochemicals in this manner. It would 

mean that the manufacturer would have to 

individually petition NOSB to permit a particular 

chemical. Given that virtually all of these 

chemicals are endocrine-disrupting chemicals 

that can cause cancer and developmental 

disability, only those chemicals safe for food 

contact purposes should be permitted.

We have petitioned FDA to ban all of 

these chemicals for food contact purposes, but 

FDA is proceeding slowly. Still, FDA doesn't set 

the standards for organic foods or organic food 

contact substances. EPA fortunately is moving a 

little faster, which is very important because 

research just this week found that about 83 
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percent of U.S. waterways are contaminated with 

PFAS. 

USDA scientists are not specialists in 

these chemicals, so we do not expect rigorous 

research from the USDA on the thousands of 

chemicals in these three classes. 

(Audio interference.)

MR. HANSON: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead.

MR. HANSON: The Center for Food 

Safety has worked with scientists from Defend Our 

Health, the Ecology Center and the Food Chemical 

Alliance that have been working on testing 

substances containing these chemicals, and we are 

going to be hosting with the National Organic 

Coalition and the Organic Trade Association a 

workshop on December 5th about how we can get rid 

of PFAS, ortho-phthalates and bisphenol, and help 

organic set a standard that people will want to 

follow. 

So I'm happy to provide the committees 
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of the NOSB with additional information to 

address this, and I think that's my time.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

you so much. Yes, if you'd like to submit 

information to Michelle, that would be great. 

Any questions for Jaydee from the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

appreciate your comments today. Thank you.

MR. HANSON: Okay thank you, and I 

hope you'll join us on December 5th.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Appreciate it. 

Ray, are you hooked up with audio yet?

MR. WOWRYK: I think I am. Can you 

hear me now?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay, fantastic, 

yes.

MR. WOWRYK: Thank you. I apologize. 

It was a difficult day for technology for me. 

I'm sorry for the delay. Good afternoon, 

everybody. Hello to the NOSB Board and those 
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online. My name is Ray Wowryk. I am the 

director of Business Development for Nature Fresh 

Farms, a grower and marketer of greenhouse grown 

organic peppers, tomatoes and cucumbers, and soon 

to be strawberries, certified organic grower and 

handler of greenhouse vegetables since 2016, and 

in the conventional form we've been producing 

since 2000.

Farm production in Canada, as well as 

the U.S. in the state of Ohio, and some grower 

partners in Mexico. Over 45 years of experience 

within the produce industry. I've witnessed 

firsthand the growth of the organic fresh fruit 

and vegetable segment, and I'm commenting on 

behalf of the International Fresh Produce 

Association, of which I am a volunteer member.

I want to thank the NOSB for their 

hard work, and as mentioned earlier on our 

previous comments from our members, we represent 

well over 3,000 members within the IFPA 

organization. Several of them are not only 
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conventional but they are organic growers as 

well. So they, there is a diversity there.

The organic segment of our industry 

represents over $9 billion of organic production 

which is significant, and over 12 percent of all 

retail sales now are diverted towards organic 

sales. When consumers see organic or think 

organic when they walk into the produce or into 

any retail outlets, usually it's the fresh 

produce departments front and center, and that 

has been a big driver for the organic segment 

over the years.

The IFPA committee is apprised of a 

number of individuals that come from different 

segments of the industry, and I represent the 

grower. But I've been involved in all segments 

of the retail as well on the buy and sell side. 

A couple of topics of concern coming -- are not 

concern that I would like to raise of interest of 

support with the carbon dioxide. Our IFPA 

members strongly support the continued use of 
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both -- both as an allergisen but disinfectant, 

sanitizer and soil amendment. 

Carbon dioxide is essential for plant 

growth, especially in an indoor farming 

environments where you're dealing now with an 

enclosed segment from the outside. It's also 

used as an pH adjuster in irrigation and water 

sources, necessary to promote efficiency of 

nutrient uptake and it affects overall yield and 

the viability of indoor and/or outdoor (audio 

interference). Well, that's quick. I apologize. 

(Simultaneous speaking.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Flags fly. Thank 

you for your comment.

MR. WOWRYK: But you know, maybe just 

in short, you know, we do support the use of 

sticky traps for barriers, for pest control, and 

that is an important segment as well, that both 

indoor and outdoor farming in favor of using.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Any 

questions from the Board?
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(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

really appreciate your time today, Ray. Thank 

you.

MR. WOWRYK: All right, thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Mike Dill. After Mike will be David Epstein and 

Dan Langager. Mike, please go ahead.

MR. DILL: Sorry, I was just waiting 

for the slides to come up.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh yeah, thank 

you.

MR. DILL: My first time dealing with 

slides, so hopefully it goes well. Anyway, hi. 

My name is Mike Dill. I'm representing the 

Organic Producer Wholesalers Coalition, seven 

businesses that distribute fresh organic produce 

to customers across the United States and 

internationally. 

My comments today are on the topics of 

minimum reporting requirements and acreage 
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reporting. For the proposal on minimum reporting 

requirements, OPWC agrees with the CACS' two 

mentions and the document on climate smart 

agriculture supporting a universal OSP. As 

stated by the subcommittee in its climate 

document, a universal OSP will "help one seeking 

access to other programs administered by the USDA 

and to enter into climate smart and conservation 

programs more efficiently."

In addition, a universal OSP would 

provide a framework for consistent inspections 

and review of operations' OSPs. Similarly, we 

feel that the inspection report should be 

standardized to ensure that inspections near the 

elements of the universal OSP are conducted with 

consistency and reduce complexity for inspectors 

by requiring familiarity with only one single 

form.

OPWC asserts that the standardization 

of these two documents, the OSP and the 

inspection report, should be prioritized before 
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focusing on audit tools. With regard to the CACS 

proposal on acreage reporting, OPWC strongly 

opposes the requirements to include harvestable 

acre by crop type on certificates for crop 

producers.

OPWC has always been supportive of 

anti fraud measures and has advocated in favor of 

almost all NOSB recommendations on that fraud, 

but not this one. If the NOSB votes to move 

forward with this proposal, we assert that an 

exemption to list harvestable acres by crop type 

be included for growers of fresh produce.

Next slide, please. Publicly sharing 

a growers harvest capacity might be a fraud 

prevention solution in other sectors, such as 

those that harvest crops all at once, but simply 

does not work for the complex cropping systems 

used to grow fresh produce, which is currently 

the largest sector in the organic trade.

We suggest taking this proposal back 

to Subcommittee for two reasons. First to 
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consider the exemption for specialty crop 

producers or define an alternative approach, and 

second, to define what is meant by the term "crop 

type." For instance, on the slide are kale and 

kalette, the same crop type. 

Next slide, please. Would a crop type 

then be defined by its species, its genus, its 

family, etcetera, or would mixed vegetables be a 

crop type as shown on this certificate? A 

clarity around what constitutes a crop type would 

allow stakeholders to properly evaluate how 

useful this proposal would be in fraud 

prevention.

The west side of this slide shows page 

one of a 56-page certificate for a diversified 

crop grower. Now some growers or some certifiers 

have mentioned that they already list crops and 

fields in acreage, and this example displays 715 

parcels of mixed vegetables and grain across the 

56 pages. Now imagine how long the cert would 

be if each of the mixed vegetable crops and their 
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acreage were listed by field? 

I'm left wondering how a produce buyer 

could ever reconcile hundreds of annual purchases 

from hundreds of suppliers against this level of 

data, in order to meet the CACS expectation that 

this certificate function as a fraud prevention 

measure. We ask that you take this back to the 

Subcommittee and find an alternative approach 

that works across all sectors. Sorry, and 

apologies for going over.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not a worry, and 

thank you for your comments today. It sounds 

like maybe you were an inspector in a previous 

life or something. I really appreciate your 

comments. They're very germane to what we're 

asking about. Javier has a question for you. 

Please go ahead, Javier. 

MEMBER ZAMORA: Thank you Mr. Dill. 

Thank you very much. I think one of my questions 

to you would be, you know, some of the companies 

that you're representing highlight the uniqueness 
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of small growers in the area, in California. So 

and that's what makes these companies really 

successful. 

So I think by letting people know 

acreage, the uniqueness of those growers make 

them successful I think, and that's my belief. 

But if we use a universal OSP, don't you think we 

will lose that?

MR. DILL: I don't think so at all. 

In fact, I think it's the opposite because I mean 

we all know the reality that some operations shop 

around to see which certifier might align with 

them best, which has the easiest application 

process in OSP. 

So when I really think of, you know, 

what we're trying to achieve with continuous 

improvement and sound and sensible certification, 

is that why should one operation be asked 20 

questions about their, you know, their process 

and another operation only be asked to 

demonstrate, you know, be asked one or two 
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questions and demonstrate different, different 

materials to demonstrate compliance, sorry.

So I think that by going universal or 

having standardization of those forms is 

important, you know. It's important for the 

inspectors, and to answer Nate's question, yes I 

was an inspector and did hundreds of crop and 

handling inspection. The preparation for the 

inspections was probably for me the hardest part, 

and I had to navigate through, you know, people's 

OSPs which, even under the same certifier, are 

way different in what type of material or 

information is in there.

Now you extrapolate that by, you know, 

working for 20 different certifiers and you have 

to be familiar with their OSPs, their inspection 

report forms, how to even like preparation for an 

inspection is daunting, you know. When you're 

on the road, you don't have much time. You're 

sleep deprived. 

So anything that -- I feel anything 
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that we can do to level the playing field, make 

it easier on the inspectors who we are asking so 

much from, I think, is just a smart move, as 

opposed to focusing on, you know, a spreadsheet 

that has to be tailored to, you know, the 45,000 

certified operations. It's going to have to work 

for each one of those and if not, then we haven't 

gained anything. We're just, you know, 

manipulating a form which is supposed to be a 

standard form, you know, like or an audit tool, 

like a spreadsheet or something for mass balance.

So I think there's more work in taking 

a shot and working towards a universal OSP, 

universal certificate just so that the trade can 

really and all the stakeholders can really know 

what we're doing. We can become experts in, you 

know, interpreting documentation and records and 

all that. 

So but 70 certifiers, 45,000 certified 

operations and to try to, you know, make an audit 

tool that works for all of those, it's going to 
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be difficult. I hope I answered your question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Logan. Logan, please go ahead.

MEMBER PETREY: Hi, thank you. So I 

completely changed my question just from all of 

that answering. But so I'm going to get off of 

the acres. I've got more of a question. I think 

that standardizing, making the procedure for me 

to report or for inspectors to report making 

that, that kind of checklist standardized, it 

would be helpful.

But I'm curious on the specialization 

of, you know, of inspector on certain crops. So 

an idea that I've always had is what if like if 

growers were able to help or write out like an 

SOP of growing organic broccoli in the Southeast, 

you know, actually specializing in that? When 

you're going to check a farm that has that 

produce, you know what to ask for because, you 

know, there are some things that are not normal 

like you need ice, you know. I mean there's this 
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ice. Is this -- it's not packed out of the field 

and send the grocery store, you know. Things 

where people can fraudulently get around because 

the inspector's not familiar with the entire 

process, or like you hear growing grain in the 

Southeast. I'm sorry, you're not picking it at 

15 percent. You're going to some dryer. Is that 

dryer on your list, you know?

So there, it just seems to me like 

yes, we do need some standardized things and then 

we also need some more specialized things to help 

these inspectors who are going all over the 

country. 

How can you know, how do you know from 

a dairy, you know, a dairy in Tennessee to a 

produce farm in south Georgia, and know all of 

the things that you're supposed to do without 

some growers' inputs. It's like hey, you know, 

help with potential fraud with other people. 

This is what we have to do to produce this crop.

Anyway, so that's just been kind of on 
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my mind, and I didn't know if you've ever thought 

about or if that, something like that would be 

helpful to say yeah, this is the procedures we're 

looking for for something like this.

MR. DILL: Yeah, wow. Yeah, I would 

love to like chat with you about this sometime 

because I know --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MEMBER PETREY: Okay.

MR. DILL: Yeah, but I do have some 

thoughts, and you know, to have best practices, 

guides, you know, kind of resources that 

inspectors can use to understand processes would 

be super-helpful, you know. Should that be part 

of an OSP that, you know, is kind of someone just 

grabs the broccoli OSP and sticks it in, or a 

process and sticks it in their OSP? I'm not sure 

I would be in favor of that. 

But I think it really comes down to 

helping the inspectors, giving them the tools, 

the information that they need, but also not 
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putting them in a position where they're 

inspecting someone outside of their comfort zone 

or their expertise. I mean I did a lot of 

inspections, and ones that I would probably say 

I wasn't qualified for because, you know, we're 

looking, talking about miles and miles of tubing 

and, you know, transformations and all this 

stuff.

Early on in my career it was just, you 

know, I was blown away. What was really 

important was as an inspector, I asked the 

questions I needed to ask to understand. I 

didn't go in there with assumptions. I didn't 

go in there, you know, with this concept that 

okay, the broccoli's going to be iced, and then 

I get there and it's not iced.

So what do I do now? I, you know, I 

really lean on my experience, on my background, 

education to be able to talk about this process 

and say hey, you know, can you explain what's 

happening here? Tell me how this is compliant. 
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So I think it's a mix of everything, but to 

include it into the actual OSP to save some time 

or maybe, you know, allow everyone to submit it. 

Yeah, I wouldn't support that but --

MEMBER PETREY: Yeah, I agree with 

you. I think more of a checklist to get, help 

an inspector know what, because they sell iceless 

broccoli. I mean they do, but most of it is 

iced, you know. So that's all they've got to say 

is iceless. Oh, okay. Anyway, just almost like 

a checklist to say hey, this is kind of what 

you're looking for. There are people that are 

trying to have a voice in those processes, that 

don't have a facility that's certified or 

anything like that.

So I agree with you on the OSP. It's 

more, yeah. So that can get technically 

difficult, so okay. Well thank you, Mike.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I don't want to 

say this as a blanket statement, but this is like 

one of the best info exchanges and idea sessions 
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that I've seen at an NOSB meeting. So I see Kyla 

smiling there and I'm like everyone on 

certification is kind of thrilled by what Logan 

just asked and what Mike brought up. So thank 

you, Mike.

Kyla, I saw your hand up. Did you 

have something you wanted to throw on there?

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. So again, just 

on the idea of what the universal OSP. Lots of 

comments, you know, had some concern or caution 

around it being too generic and then not being 

able to be as like site-specific. 

And so I guess I'm just wondering, you 

feel like there's a path forward where there's 

like a base, like a crop operation, like a 

baseline but then modular components that could 

be plugged in depending on your specific type of 

operation or where you may be within the country 

or something like that, that could be a path 

forward so it's not just this one crop OSP that 

may not fully get us where we need to be? But 
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could that be a concept that we work with?

MR. DILL: Oh absolutely, and I think 

I mean if we look at the landscape right now in 

how we've kind of compounded this issue, if you 

have 70 certifiers and they all have potentially 

a crop, livestock, a handler OSP. So they're 

already dealing with, you know, we have certain 

modular OSPs or different OSP forms to adapt to 

just the three basic, you know, different scopes 

of certification.

Now we talk about different cropping 

systems, whether your processed products versus 

just a marketer or broker. So absolutely I think 

modular OSPs are the, you know, are the way to go 

and in fact when I was working for a certifier, 

that was part my job was to build out the new OSP 

and make out all these modules, and it was hard 

to know where to start and stop. 

So I totally get it. It's like how 

much are you going to ask about boiler additives 

when, you know, half the operations aren't going 
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to have boiler additives. So if you could go 

into say an electronic form and we have all these 

different categories, you know, one standard, 

standard form, different categories and you can 

say yes, I use boiler additives.

So now I'm going to, you know, this 

part becomes applicable to me, or agro in 

containers. So this part is applicable to me. 

Whatever, you know, however we can break it down 

and just make it to where you're only completing 

the pages or the sections that apply to you. 

I mean I speak from our own 

experience. When our certifier, I mean we've 

been certified, ODC has been certified since like 

1990-something, and I wanted to use our 

certifier's new form and it was hard to do, 

because so many -- as a handler and only, you 

know, boxes in, boxes out and not much 

processing, there were only a few sections that 

really applied to me.

But there should have been way more. 
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But the way the form was formatted, it really 

just didn't apply to us. So I totally get the 

issue, I think it's doable. But why have 70 

certifiers each try to create their own one, you 

know, form for the different scopes and all the 

different processes when we could just have, you 

know, three, crops, livestock, handling and then 

build that out. I think it's -- I think it's a 

worthwhile, you know, move to try.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah, thanks for 

all your comments, Mike. I'm trying to make this 

quick because it's taking some time, but going 

back to the acreage, you know, on the, you know, 

the public disclosure of acreage. That really 

big farm that you kind of made that imaginary 

spreadsheet around or, you know, the slide from.

I mean they have, they have 

complicated spreadsheets that distill all that 

information, and I don't think we need to have 
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acreage by field. I think we need total acreage. 

So I don't really see what the problem is here, 

and I'm sure that the decision about kalettes 

versus kale versus cauliflower can easily be 

fixed. So I'm really, I'm still struggling with 

what the resistance to some of this is.

MR. DILL: Okay. Well, so I don't 

want to say that this thing is dead in the water, 

because I think that it could have some legs, 

this proposal. It's just not going to work the 

same for produce as it would for grain. I think 

everyone can kind of agree with that, and I've

heard it a lot in the comments today.

But that certificate wasn't make 

believe. That was an actual certificate. So 56 

pages of just listing mixed vegetables. So what 

I was trying to demonstrate there is crop types, 

however, we define it, is going to -- is going to 

be how we decide if this works or not. 

If I'm buying 30 different types of 

vegetables from this grower and I just know that 
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they have, you know, 26,000 acres of mixed 

vegetables, I'm not going to be able to discern 

any information about fraud unless I buy more 

than, you know, whatever 26,000 acres' worth of 

whatever would be.

So really as a fraud tool, it's not -

- it's too early for us to tell if it's going to 

be useful. All signs right now point to no, just 

because of how complex the supply chain is, how 

many different partners or customers these 

growers are working with, they sell wholesale, 

they sell restaurant, on site use, farm stamp, 

all this. There's so many factors, and then the 

way that these certificates are built out and how 

they're different between certifiers, is some 

list crops, some list varieties, some list it by 

field versus just a full listing.

There are just so many different ways 

that this information is being portrayed, and so 

many certifiers saying we already do this. But 

what I showed is an example of what they're doing. 
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And so if you tell me how I can buy 100 cases of 

say broccoli over a six month period, how am I 

going to be able to determine if they, you know, 

have sold more broccoli than what they were able 

to when it just says "mixed vegetables."

So I think the real key is, you know, 

honing in on crop type and really kind of defining 

this proposal more than just, you know, what it 

is right now. I think if we had some more 

information and justification to see, you know, 

to know what level we're going to, then we could 

actually make that assessment. But right now 

it's, you know, I'm left assuming what a crop 

type is and I guess I'm going to assume that it's 

somewhere in the middle. 

Not kalettes, but maybe it's brassicas 

or maybe it is kale, and in that case, you know, 

this 56 page certificate is now going to be 156 

pages if they list it out the way they have it 

right now which is, you know, their preference to 

list it out by field. So anyways, I think, I 
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think more work needs to be done to understand if 

this is going to be acceptable or if it's actually 

going to lead somewhere for the produce industry.

MEMBER CALDWELL: All right, thanks. 

And of course we don't want to just tailor the 

whole program to what one farm might want to do. 

So yeah. But I appreciate that.

MR. DILL: Cool. May I put on my hat 

for --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That is -- give 

me that hat. That is so good. A quick question 

for you --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'll see you in 

California. A quick question for you though on 

this. So you're saying you want -- you have 

concerns about the definition of crop type, and 

the other component to there, if we send it back 

to Subcommittee, the other thing you wanted to be 

fixed or answered was?

MR. DILL: Oh my gosh. Where did we 
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start this conversation at? 

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MEMBER CALDWELL: Specialty crop 

exemption, specialty crop exemption.

MR. DILL: Specialty crop? Oh yes, 

the exemption for produce. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. So I have 

a question on that one for you. 

MR. DILL: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Is it, and I say 

this with all respect, is it a good look for 

produce saying don't look at us so close?

MR. DILL: Not at all. Not at all. 

So but the way this is presented is this is our 

proposal. This is what we want to do. We're 

going to go for it, and so I'm saying if you go 

for it, we want an exemption. I can't speak for 

grain and it's, you know, it's obvious from 

reading this that that was kind of the emphasis 

behind, you know, the proposal document, talking 

about aggregators and everything.
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So I can see how this might work for 

grain, and it might work even better for grain 

coming from, you know, a certain region or you 

know, and coming from a foreign country. But I 

want something that's going to work, well first 

of all that's proven to work and that's going to 

work for all sectors.

Because I'm really concerned about the 

burden that this is going to add for growers, for 

produce growers. So the benefit's going to come 

to grain. You may have, you know, the least 

amount of burden, and then the least amount of 

benefit and the untested benefit for fraud 

prevention would be on the growers of specialty 

crops, but they would have the highest burden.

So that's where I just, I can't get 

behind it and I'm not sure, you know, you adding 

the factor of not knowing what level we're going 

to dig down to on certificates. We don't know 

what SOE is going to change on certificates. 

There's a lot that's kind of coming that we're 
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unsure of. It just doesn't seem like the right 

time and we're not, it's not fleshed out enough 

to work across all sectors.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Amy, 

please go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Just a quick, 

quick question, Mike. The information that you 

displayed with that very extensive certificate, 

just went to show that this information is 

available, right? Could you just comment on a 

live organization you believe that they are 

keeping track of how much production they are 

producing, their acres, their feet, their 

expenses, their inputs?

I mean is this information that's 

being collected by these operations already, or 

are you under the standpoint that they would have 

to start tracking new information that's where 

the burden comes in to be reported in this to 

their certifier? I'm just confused.

MR. DILL: Yeah. Well, the burden 
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comes from kind of all it. I mean they are 

keeping records. They do know what they are 

growing and on what field. I don't know if they 

would have it down to the acreage or square foot 

level for each block. I'm thinking if you have 

715 parcels and, you know, each one's 40 acres, 

maybe you know how much, you know, acreage is 

being grown on each one. 

MEMBER BRUCH: This isn't necessarily 

for a block. This is just your operation, how 

much of what are you growing? So it sounds like 

--

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MR. DILL: Yeah. It's so dynamic for 

a grower it's going to change constantly. So 

that is our fear is that they're going to have to 

continuously report. If we want this data to be 

accurate and useful for people in the trade, it 

needs to be real time and they have to report it. 

And if they don't and an inspector finds out that, 

you know, you had three harvests of carrots out 
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of Field B and you only reported two, now you're 

getting a non-compliance.

And so I'm thinking, you know, a nonintegrity -- creating a system that's going to 

create the potential for more non-integrity based 

non-compliances is something we should avoid. 

But on top of this, when you're growing on 715 

parcels like this one grower is and you make one 

change, you have to report that and you have to 

report it so that it reflects on the certificate 

under the assumption that a buyer's going to 

reconcile their purchases against that.

So I guess the whole, the whole thing, 

you know, it's a burden on several folks, you 

know, the buyers as well if we're going to 

actually do this to the point where, you know, I 

think folks are assuming that we need to act for 

this to be useful. I kind of took that in a 

different direction at the end, so I apologize.

But yes, the burden is definitely on 

the growers, especially the specialty crop folks, 
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anyone who -- the more you grow and the more 

changes you have, the more of a burden it's going 

to be. The last thing is some certifiers charge 

like 50, 75 dollars per OSP update or certificate 

change, you know --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Time to be 

considered here. I do apologize for interrupting 

you Mike. I'm going to have to --

MR. DILL: I think I've had my time.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We've had an 

excellent conversation. Just to keep us 

cranking along, so thank you so much Mike. That 

was a lot of questions, and we really appreciate 

your contribution. Thank you very much.

MR. DILL: All right, well thank you 

very much. I really appreciate the time.

(Simultaneous speaking.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. Next 

up we have David Epstein, followed by Dan 

Langager and then Mark Kastel. David, the floor 

is yours.
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MR. EPSTEIN: Thank you, Nathan. 

Boy, following Mike is a real chore, I've got to 

tell you. So I'm Dave Epstein. I'm trained as 

an entomologist who worked for a couple of 

decades in organic research of tree fruits of 

Michigan state, and I'm currently serving as the 

Vice President for Scientific Affairs at the 

Northwest Horticultural Council. 

The NHC represents tree fruit 

producers in the Pacific Northwest who account 

for 95 percent of all the fresh organic apples 

sold in this country. We have supplied written 

comments that are in-depth for all the materials 

and proposals currently under consideration by 

the Board, but for brevity's sake today I'm just 

speaking to sticky traps and coppers. 

We support the relisting of sticky 

traps. They are the principle method for 

establishing when -- oh man, the phone always 

will ring when you're on the phone -- they are 

the principle -- my apologies for that. My phone 
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was ringing and I have a bluetooth device and it 

just goes into my ear.

The NHC supports the relisting of 

sticky traps, the principle method for 

establishing when pests become active in the 

orchard, for establishing the size of the pest 

population and for initiating all the biological 

models that predict egg laying and when larvae 

emerge, so that we can best control, time control 

actions.

Monitoring sticky traps reduces 

reliance on pesticides, and know the pesticide 

applications that have to be made by taking the 

guess work out of decision-making as to when and 

if a pesticide is necessary. So without sticky 

traps, growers are making uninformed decisions on 

whether and when to initiate a control action, 

and right now there are no viable options to 

replace their use.

The other topic I want to discuss is 

coppers, which are critically important to our 
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apple and pear producers for the prevention of 

fire blight. We use models to predict when 

infection may occur. It varies from year to year 

depending on conditions, weather conditions, what 

scion and rootstock you have planted, what the 

horticultural structure of the orchard is. The 

bottom line is coppers are not routinely used 

every year, but only when the threat of infection 

is high, and in bad years fire blight can 

absolutely devastate an orchard.

The worst we've had recently was in 

2017, where 22 percent Bradley apple makers and 

65 percent of pear acres in Washington had over 

$9 million in losses, and hundreds of acres were 

pulled out. So the decision to delist would 

leave us with little to protect the trees. Fixed 

copper products average about 70 percent efficacy 

when used alone, compared with many other organic 

alternatives, which have much lower efficacy.

We agree that these materials must be 

used in a manner that minimizes accumulation in 
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soil and water, and but we maintain that the 

monitoring forecasting systems routinely a low 

percentage of copper pride, and the infrequency 

of copper applications reduces the risk of copper 

build up in soil and water.

So the NHC supports the relisting of 

coppers for disease control. I apologize for the 

ringing in my ears that delayed my -- made me go 

over time. Thank you for hearing me.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. Any 

questions for David?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

you David. Next up we have Dan Langager. Dan, 

please go ahead.

MR. LANGAGER: All right, thanks so 

much. My name is Dan Langager. I'm also with 

the Northwest Horticultural Council, 

representing growers, packers and shippers of 

organic apples, pears and cherries in Washington, 

Oregon and Idaho. As Dave said, we produce the 
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majority of U.S. organic tree fruits.

I'm going to address the human capital 

technical support proposal before the CACS 

Subcommittee. The NHC disagrees with the CACS 

recommendation that the source of technical 

support come from within the USDA but from 

outside the AMS and NOP. Technical support 

should come from all agencies within USDA, 

including AMS, as well as sister federal agencies 

such as FDA and EPA.

It is essential for AMS staff to 

maintain historical knowledge of NOSB and NOP 

deliberations and decisions, questions on 

proposals related to pesticide regulatory policy, 

biotechnology and integrated pest management 

would greatly benefit from input from career 

scientists at USDA's Office of Pest Management 

Policy, OPMP. They have ten senior level 

scientists trained in these topics. 

Staff at the Agricultural Research 

Service and the Economic Research Service should 
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be consulted for the latest research on materials 

under sunset review, foreign sector performance 

and economic impacts to growers and world 

communities. Staff at EPA and FDA can be 

resources for consultations on chemical and food 

safety.

To properly vet the full scope of work 

the NOSB considers, technical support should be 

limited to such career scientists, but who could 

also receive and vet input from scientists at 

public land grant universities. This expertise 

should be routinely sought out and included. 

Building routine outreach to vetted experts into 

the NOSB evaluation process will benefit both 

Board members and stakeholders.

Under OFPA, the NOSB is given 

authority to convene technical advisory panels to 

consider specific issues. Unfortunately, not 

only is this outreach not routine, it rarely 

occurs. We recommend utilizing such technical 

advisory panels to assist the NOSB on difficult 
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or contentious issues. 

The NHC agrees with the CACS 

recommendation that technical staff should not be 

allowed to draft proposals or discussion 

documents, as that work must remain the 

responsibility of the individual NOSB members. 

Transparency of this entire process is critical 

to maintain trust in the Board's decisions.

The NOSB must avoid the influence of 

partisan organizations with biased agendas, and 

seek out vetted experts who understand the 

competing needs across the broad landscape of 

organic farming, as well as the impacts of 

regulatory actions in organic agriculture. NOSB 

decisions impact the livelihoods of many, and 

encompass scientific and economic implications 

for producers, consumers and rural communities.

In closing, I'd like to direct you ro 

to the Northwest Horticultural Council's 

extensive written comments. For more details on 

all the materials and proposals before the Board, 
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the materials before the Handling and Crops 

Subcommittees that the NHC supports the relisting 

of, as my colleague Dave Epstein mentioned, 

mitigating fire blight with coppers and sticky 

traps for organic pest management.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

much for your comments, Dan. Any questions for 

Dan? 

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, 

appreciate your time today. Next up we have Mark 

Kastel, followed by Christy Badger and then 

Nicole Dehne. Mark, please go ahead.

MR. KASTEL: Thank you very much, Mr. 

Chairman. My name is Mark Kastel. I'm the 

executive director of Organic Eye. We are a taxexempt public interest group based in La Farge, 

Wisconsin, and chartered by the IRS to do 

research and educational work. Hey, I'm losing 

my time and I just did my intro, so I hope we'll 

have a couple of extra seconds.
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The animal welfare rule is one of the 

largest betrayals I've witnessed in my 35 years 

of being involved in the organic farming 

movement. Who does it serve? It's not going to 

change the fact that almost all organic eggs in 

the market are produced by vertically integrated 

agro-business giants or by more moderate agrobusinesses, depending on contract production, not 

family farmers.

Not only do ethical family farmers but 

chickens lose and consumers lose. Don't confuse 

access to pasture with chickens actually going 

outdoors. Based on my observations in visiting 

scores of operations, besides smaller familyscale farms virtually no chickens are outside 

now, and they won't be when this rule goes 

through.

What kind of animal welfare is 

proposed? One to two square feet indoors and 

outdoors? That's inhumane. Let's chop off the 

beaks of these birds, so that they don't injure 
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each other due to the stress of confinement. No 

chickens are going to go outside because there's 

no food outside, there's no water outside, 

there's no shade out there. They can't get to 

the few small doors because they'd have to walk 

over thousands of other birds to get outside.

Furthermore, they're not going to walk 

over an expansive concrete and gravel area to get 

to a natural zone where they can actually exhibit 

their natural instinctive behaviors. And now, 

they will be afraid to go outside because they've 

never been outside. Unlike many smaller pullet 

growers who let their chickens out, the new rules 

allow up to 21 weeks of total confinement before 

the little doors ever get opened.

We would welcome inquiries from other 

organic community members who are assessing or 

reassessing their positions on this rule.

Conflict of interest. Suppose one of 

the largest multi-million dollar certifiers in 

the country certifies a multi-billion corporate 
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agro-business. Besides for the lucrative 

certification fees, which include inspecting 

numerous contract growers, the corporations also 

handsomely contribute to the non-profits 

associated with the certifiers.

Both the certifier and agro-business 

are major contributors to the industry's largest 

lobby group, and the certifier lobbies the NOSB 

in support of their clients' use of materials. 

The certifier and corporation both have employee 

seats on the National Organic Standards Board 

debating without recusal issues that their 

clients have a financial interest in. But don't 

worry. 

The NOP has mitigated any potential 

conflicts of interest by making sure that the 

certifier and non-profit that's receiving copious 

amounts of voluntary contributions are separate, 

separate on paper. In this scenario, over 80 

employees of both the certifier and non-profit 

are both housed in the same offices or to the 
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same --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you Mark.

MR. KASTEL: Thank you for the 

opportunity. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

much for joining us today. Any questions from 

the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

up we have Christy Badger, followed by Nicole 

Dehne and then Amy Simpson. Christy, please go 

ahead.

MS. BADGER: Good afternoon. Can you 

hear me okay?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can, thank 

you. MS. BADGER: Thank you. My 

name's Christy Badger, and today I'm commenting 

as an active, independent organic inspector and 

consumer. Thank you all for your tireless 

efforts in upholding the integrity of the 

National Organic Program. I've appreciated the 
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robust discussion, shared insights and 

experiences and humility in display in listening 

to each other and your stakeholder groups.

A comment that stood out to me on 

reading the published materials was the following 

from you Nate, and it says "Consistency is the 

foundation of trust, and trust is the currency 

behind the organic seal." A few sentences later, 

you say "Consistency builds trust." 

I have two main issues that I'd like 

to address regarding NOSB work, and I'd like to 

share my feedback from my experiences as an 

active organic inspector in the field. The first 

issue is that of consistent inclusiveness and 

accuracy of representation. I'm speaking of the 

need to include all voices in the summary of 

materials reviews, and to accurately represent 

all stakeholders who commented in previous 

discussions.

Let me provide an example of exactly 

what I'm talking about. In the published 
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materials discussion on herbicides soap-based, it 

is noted "In 2017, the NOSB received several 

comments in favor of keeping soap-based 

herbicides on the National List." Two issues 

arise with this statement. 

The first, there were also several 

comments noting that soap-based herbicides were 

not essential to organic production. 

Second, there's no mention of the 

Spring 2020 comments that were received, 2022 

comments that were received, which ranged from 

not essential and in support of delisting, 

essential and in support of relisting, as well as 

no survey results and a note from a materials 

review organization regarding the number of 

products that are only listed in this category 

with no further comment, in support or not.

A second example of this issue arises 

in the published materials for Polyoxin D zinc 

salt, with a discussion noting "Written and oral 

comments in 2022 were strongly in favor of 
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retaining Polyoxin D zinc salt on the National 

List," with no mention of those that were not in 

favor, or the reasons given as to why they weren't 

in favor. It is my sincere request that all 

voices are consistently and accurately 

represented in the published materials. It is 

discouraging to think that all comments are not 

equally represented.

The second issue that I'd like to 

raise is the question of efficacy when reviewing 

materials. I remember a conversation with Dr. 

Hugh Karreman, who stated that "If it is just 

anecdotal evidence and a plethora of a product 

seen in the field, I don't think that counts too 

much. 

"However, if seeing products 

consistently being used over and over, there will 

be a good reason to study the effectiveness of 

such treatments, as no dairy farmer will keep 

buying a product that shows no benefit 

whatsoever." And as another speaker said, well 
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that went fast. Poor planning on my part.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not at all. 

Thank you so much for that contribution. Any 

questions from the Board. I really appreciate 

your time today Christy. 

MS. BADGER: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We are 

experiencing some fantastic conversations today, 

and with a good conversation comes a little bit 

being pressed for time. So we're going to break 

for ten minutes now, and then we're going to come 

back at five to the hour, and give the Board just 

a chance to grab a drink of water and refresh.

So upon return from the break, we're 

going to start with Nicole Dehne, then Amy 

Simpson and Kelly Skoda. 

(Whereupon at 3:45 p.m., the aboveentitled matter went off the record and resumed 

at 3:54 p.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sorry, I'll start 

that again. A couple of seconds to get started, 
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but we'll get -- first up will be Nicole Dehne, 

then Kelly Skoda and Todd Linsky. So we'll wait 

until about five minutes to give everyone a 

chance to get back. 

(Pause.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, 

Nicole. Go ahead.

MS. DEHNE: Right. Can you all hear 

me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can, thank 

you.

MS. DEHNE: All right. So thanks. 

My name is Nicole Dehne. I'm the certification 

director for Vermont Organic Farmers, LLC, and we 

are the certification program owned by NOFA of 

Vermont. We represent close to 800 organic 

producers only in the state of Vermont, and of 

course as always, I want to thank the NOSB for 

all of the hard work and time and effort you put 

in, and for the opportunity to give comment today 

on a couple of agenda items.
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So the first one I wanted to talk 

about is the modernization of the organic 

traceability infrastructure. We of course, as 

VOF, would comply with adding acreage to organic 

certificates to help address fraud, but we want 

to ensure, as many people have said, that the 

system works for small diversified producers.

So I just want to give kind of an 

example of what a typical veggie farm in Vermont 

would look like. Our producers might grow more 

than 71 different crops on about 50 acres of land. 

They're going to be primarily selling direct to 

consumers through a community-supported ag model, 

with perhaps a small amount of product being sold 

to a few restaurants, a few coops. They might 

have a farm stand.

Tallying the acreage of 71 different 

crops is going to add time and cost to the 

inspection and the certification, and is not 

necessarily going to result in less fraud as we 

see it, since the majority of the sales are going 
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direct to consumers and they're not aggregated.

So in order for this requirement to 

work for our kind of producers, we really feel we 

need to be flexible about how small, diversified 

farms can meet the requirement. So we're 

proposing adding mixed vegetables to be an 

acceptable category, or another option would be 

to require acreage on certificates only for crops 

that are grown above a certain acreage, so maybe 

for example two acres or sold as a commodity in 

kind of that traditional sense, or crops that 

total above a certain value, for example over 

$20,000.

So whatever solution we come up with, 

it needs to work for those small and diversified 

producers, who really are going to have a 

significant burden estimating a percent of the 

acreage for each of the crops that they grow 

annually, and that not are really going to be 

contributing to deferring, deterring fraud.

So the other piece I wanted to comment 
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on is just the minimum reporting requirements. 

Again, very similarly using a one-size-fits-all 

approach to mass balance and traceability. 

Instead of using that, we really recommend 

identifying objectives and purpose, defining 

success, establishing baseline criteria for 

procedures to help improve consistency. We 

support the NOP creating templates that could be 

models, as long as they're not going to be 

required, at least not at first.

Because of our work with our 

producers, our small diversified, we've had to 

create policies for audits that address selfserved farm stands, farmers markets and other 

kind of unique scenarios to small producers. 

Right now, we have six different mass balance 

templates that we use for crops, livestock, 

regional forage audit, a grain audit, livestock 

handling, processing, maple. 

Don't forget about maple for us, and 

it's really -- we're finding that if you have 
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relevant information on the audit template, it 

helps improve the final audit.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

that, and thank you for your comments. Any 

questions from the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Oh, 

sorry. Please go ahead.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Can you reiterate 

your last sentence, Nicole. I missed it with the 

buzzer.

MS. DEHNE: I was saying that we, like 

as far as a one-size-fits-all template for 

audits, we have found that we need to be really 

specific about the type of production, and it's 

really helpful for all -- we do use templates, 

but we sort of tailor them towards the production 

type. 

So our maple mass balance audit is 

asking very specific questions to lead the 

auditor, to lead the inspector down the road that 
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is relevant for maple. So if we have one that's 

like too broad, we find that we don't get the 

information that we need. 

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you. I 

appreciate that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

Nicole. I really appreciate your time today. 

Next up we have Kelly Skoda, followed by Todd 

Linsky and then Conor Mylroie, and I apologize. 

I'm an equal opportunity name butcher, so please 

forgive me. Kelly, please go ahead.

MS. SKODA: Yeah, good afternoon. 

I'm Kelly Skoda, a certification specialist at 

Crop Cooperative. Thank you for the opportunity 

to speak. My comment today is regarding casings 

from processed intestines. Crop Cooperative 

strongly supported the continued listing of 

casings on the National List.

The Organic Meat Company or OMC is a 

subsidiary of Crop Cooperative, and utilizes 

roughly 70,000 intestinal hard casings annually 
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for bratwurst, Italian and Luganega sausages, 

which are branded as organic prairie and organic 

valley in the retail market. Natural casings are 

desired because of the shape, texture and snap 

they lend when used in traditional sausagemaking.

While the organic hog industry is 

growing, organic hog casings are not yet 

available in the quantity needed, nor is the 

segregation, aggregation and infrastructure 

feasible yet to commercially supply them. 

According to the USDA's livestock slaughter 

summary, the conventional hog industry 

slaughtered 132 million hogs in the United States 

in 2020.

With no reliable data for the organic 

hog industry, Crops estimate is that 50,000 to 

70,000 organic hogs will be butchered in 2022, 

with OMC delivering 20 percent of this total. 

Organic hog production is roughly .047 percent of 

the U.S. total production. Intestine sizes are 
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not uniform within one animal among herds or 

throughout the population. During processing, 

intestines are selected, sized and assessed for 

quality, resulting in thousands of different 

SKUs.

Uniformity of a particularly SKU is 

critical for running on high speed production and 

packaging equipment. OMC uses just one size of 

casings in three types of sausages. Our farmerraised hogs produce variable intestine sizes, 

making these casings unfeasible to use. Small 

plants slaughter less than several hundred hogs 

per day, while some modern conventional 

processing facilities run several thousand hogs 

per day.

Small plants such as OMC's pork 

processor, do not have the infrastructure to 

stave, clean, sort and select intestines. If 

segregation were possible, it would take two to 

three weeks of organic production to accumulate 

just one barrel of intestines from organic hogs. 
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While some companies own and operate the 

equipment for cleaning the casings at their 

plants, other sell their cleaned intestines to 

aggregators, who ship casings from several plans 

to overseas facilities for further processing.

Organic segregation at overseas 

facilities would be a significant challenge. It 

can anticipated that at some future date, enough 

organic hog casings will be slaughtered to 

aggregate and ship casings to a certified organic 

facility. However, it will likely take years of 

sector growth before organic casings are 

commercially available.

Crop Cooperative strongly supports 

the continued listings of casings on the National 

List. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

for your comments. Nice and clear. All right. 

Any other or any questions for Kelly?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 
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appreciate your time. Thank you so much, Kelly.

MS. DEHNE: Thank you for the 

appreciation Nate. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Todd Linsky, followed by Conor Mylroie and then 

Erica Rohr Luke. Todd, the floor is yours.

MR. LINSKY: Thank you very much. 

I've spoken to you a bunch of times, but I've 

never followed hog casings before, so I 

appreciate it. Thank you very much and howdy 

everybody for this opportunity to share my 

thoughts. 

I read the discussion document on 

organic and climate smart agriculture several 

times submitted by the Certification, 

Accreditation and Compliance Subcommittee. I 

was a little dumbfounded to discover that there's 

no mention of how water plays into climate smart 

ag, and I can't imagine that this is an oversight. 

The urgency surrounding water is an 

oversight to anyone affected by its rationing, 
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loss of crops, diminished home values, sinking 

land, and lack of drinking water in your 

community. In this paper, there's not even any 

mention at all about agriculture technology, not 

one notation of how certified organic greenhouse 

is living up to the principles of organic 

agriculture, setting the bar for water, one off 

land conservation and climate smart technology.

All certified organic food is valuable 

and should be viewed through the lens of 

possibilities, not exclusion. Food matters, 

people matters, the planet matters. We just 

figure out how, where this is going to come from 

and how we can provide a consistent climatefriendly supply. This constant ignoring of the 

issue, kicking it out of the club mind set is 

costing the organic industry market share.

This lack of vision will condemn us to 

even less market share in the future. It's time 

to stop the divide, making organic food for elite 

and some would argue for personal interest. To 
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remain relevant, we must open our minds and heart 

to the inevitable changes ahead, that draft 

horses aren't coming back. 

How are we going to feed the world 

organic produce when we seem to be so afraid of 

it? Ag is embracing technology and the next 

generation farmers are as well, greenhouses, 

aquaponics, hydroponics and other methods are all 

climate smart just like soil, but with differing 

attributes. Ask yourself why we were losing dirt 

farmers right and left and not replacing them? 

That is a question that we need to answer quickly. 

The creators of this document, no 

matter that it's just a discussion document, in 

my opinion owe an apology to all the ignored 

certified organic operations that are currently 

working towards a climate smart future, having a 

vision of how we will feed the world with finite 

resources.

How have we lost the will to feed more 

people better food in less than four years? I'm 
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also very concerned about one I'm not hearing the 

NOSB talking about, which is how we're going to 

feed 9.5 billion organic food by 2050. It's time 

to include all forms of certified organic farming 

and technology, end the divisive cycle that's 

being perpetuated.

If you're not motivated to find 

potential ways to feed organic food to the future 

generations that will quickly add up, again to 

9.5 billion folks, then I have to ask who are we 

serving? Thank you very much for your time and 

consideration on this topic. I really do 

appreciate it, and I would like for us to continue 

to raise the bar on organic technology, just like 

we did on soil so long ago. I appreciate it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comment, Todd. Any questions for Todd?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One thing I would 

like to ask Todd, do you understand the 

difference between a discussion document and a 
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proposal? 

MR. LINSKY: Yeah, absolutely. But I 

think if you're going to have a discussion --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: This is exactly 

what ---

(Simultaneous speaking.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hang on here. We 

want folks like you telling us what we missed, 

what we need to add. So I was surprised when you 

said "apology." It's sort of a bucket to capture 

all the ideas. So I'm excited to add water and 

technology to that.

MR. LINSKY: Yeah absolutely, and I 

appreciate that. To answer your question, yes I 

do know the difference. But I think when you 

read a document that's about discussion and you 

leave off two major aspects of discussion, it 

starts to sway given where the conversation has 

been going for a long time. You know, it is what 

it is, but we're going to have to find a way to 

feed the world, and if we're not working at it 
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together to feed them organic food, it just 

puzzles me. So yes, I appreciate your clarity 

and I'm well aware of what it is.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Excellent yes, 

and we appreciate your input. So we're going to 

keep on this, because climate change is the topic 

of the day. Thank you for your comment, and 

thank you for your contribution to the community.

MR. LINSKY: Thanks.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Conor 

Mylroie, and apologies if I'm getting that wrong. 

Erica Rohr Luke and then Tahir Awan. Conor, 

please go ahead.

MS. MYLROIE: Thank you for the 

opportunity for me to comment at the NOSB 

meeting. My name is Conor Mylroie. You did 

great attempts at pronunciations. I have heard 

so much, so that's all right. I'm speaking today 

on behalf of ProFarm Group, formerly named 

Marrone Bio Innovations. 

ProFarm Group develops, manufactures 
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-- apologies -- develops and manufactures 

effective and environmentally responsible 

microbial and plant extract products for 

integrated pest management, as well as 

fertilizing materials and soil amendments. 

Today, I would like to speak to you in 

support of the continued use of micronutrients, 

specifically soluble boron products and the 

sulfates carbonate oxides or silicates of zinc, 

copper, iron, manganese, selenium and cobalt.

To go over each micronutrient briefly 

and some of the benefits to plant biology, boron 

is an essential nutrient for plant development. 

It's vital for the cell wall of the plant. Zinc 

is an important part of several enzymes and 

proteins crucial to plant development. Cooper 

is essential for plants and chlorophyl in seed 

production. Iron is essential for the plant to 

synthesize DNA, transfer of energy and for 

respiration and photosynthesis.

Manganese is essential for the 
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photolytic process in general. Selenium is known 

to moderate the uptake of these other essential 

nutrients of the plant to maintain balance, and 

cobalt is an integral component of nitrogen 

fixation by legumes. These micronutrients have 

many more effects on plant processes. 

Deficiencies of these can cause irreversible crop 

damage and loss. There are areas of the U.S. 

that the soil does not have the natural 

background of these micronutrients to support 

plant development properly. 

The United States is a very varied 

place, and because drought conditions can 

increase, decrease -- my apologies -- the 

availability of micronutrients to plants. 

Allowing these micronutrients to remain on the 

National List allows growers to correct these 

nutrient deficiencies. This will become more and 

more important with climate change, as more 

agricultural areas of the United States 

experience persistent drought conditions.
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As was stated here before and I want 

to echo, having the ability to correct nutrient 

deficiencies in organic production is critical to 

creating strong, healthy resilient soils. My 

colleague Erica Rohr Luke, who is speaking 

directly after me, will continue to speak on how 

these micronutrients are necessary to the 

production of agriculture products and consistent 

with the organic crop production. 

I thank the Board for your time and 

consideration of our comments. As someone who 

is new here, it has been delightful to watch and 

to learn today. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, we're very 

pleased with your presence, and thank you for 

joining us today. Brian has a question for you.

MS. MYLROIE: Uh-huh.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah thanks, Conor. 

Just a quick question. Is there a research or 

development being done at your company for 

natural sources of these micronutrients. I think 
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everybody agrees they're really important, but 

the space on the National List is for synthetic 

micronutrients. I'm just wondering if there's 

potential in the future for non-synthetic 

sources?

MS. MYLROIE: I think I will defer 

that one to Erica, who knows more about what's 

going on on the development side of our company.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

other questions for Conor Mylroie.

MS. MYLROIE: Mylroie.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mylroie, sorry. 

MS. MYLROIE: I understand. The only 

reason I know how to say it is because I was 

raised with it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Apologies again, 

and thank you for joining us. 

MS. MYLROIE: Thank you for having me.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm going to move 

on to Erica Rohr Luke, followed by Tahir Awan and 

then Kate Mendenhall. Erica, please go ahead.
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MS. LUKE: Hi, I'm actually really 

shocked that you got my maiden name correct. 

I've had a lifetime of where I don't quite 

recognize that. So thank you. I'd like to thank 

you for this opportunity to comment at this fall 

meeting. Thank you very much for all the work 

that you all do, of your tenure on the Board. We 

really appreciate you all.

My name is Erica Rohr Luke. As said, 

I'm also speaking today on behalf of ProFarm 

Group, formerly named Marrone Bio Innovations, 

and as Conor mentioned, I'll be continuing their 

comments in support of the continued use of 

micronutrients in organic production, and also 

try to swing back around to Brian's comment as 

well, question.

So as Conor mentioned, these 

micronutrients are necessary to the production of 

agricultural products, and as Brian very well 

mentioned, there are some that can be derived 

from natural minerals, but that need very little 
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processing. But there are some that are 

synthetically derived.

However, all of these micronutrients 

are needed only in very small amounts, and use of 

them is consistent with the principles of organic 

agriculture, and its aim to increase soil health 

and fertility. The use of these nutrients is 

limited to providing it only in the case of and 

only in sufficient quantity correct soil 

deficiencies, and this is something that's 

carefully determined and monitored by the soil 

analysis required by these same NOP regulations 

for the applications to be permissible.

On a final note, unrelated to 

sunsetting these micronutrients, I did want to 

take a moment to acknowledge the again many years 

of thoughtful work by this Board and previous 

members of the Board, as culminated in the ANPR 

published by AMS with regard to alternatives to 

EPA List 3 and 4 inerts. We think it's a really 

important step forward, and we're very eager to 
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work with NOSB and USDA on a new paradigm.

And then to just come back around to 

Brian's question, I will also have to lob that 

softball and take your question down. I have 

your name and your question, and I will connect 

with our R&D team and I can get back to you. So 

just email Michelle Arsenault?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, that sounds 

-- that would be great.

MS. LUKE: Are there any other 

questions?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions from the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. I 

really appreciate your time today and for joining 

us (audio interference). All right. Next up we 

have Tahir Awan. Are they online? We're not 

seeing him in the (audio interference). We'll 

come back if so. Let's move on to Kate 

Mendenhall, followed by Dana Perls and then 
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Malaika Elias. Kate, the floor is yours.

MS. MENDENHALL: Great, thank you 

NOSB members for the opportunity to speak before 

you today. My name is Kate Mendenhall. I'm the 

executive director of the Organic Farmers 

Association. OFA represents a strong national 

voice for domestic certified organic farmers. 

Today I'll be addressing compliance, 

accreditation and certification topics. 

Regarding the proposal for NOSB 

technical support, we have spoken to this point 

before and support research assistance for NOSB 

members. We have concerns with these assistance 

being USDA employees for both the potential 

conflict of interest and pervasive lack of 

organic knowledge within USDA.

The Board functions well currently, 

and research assistance should not interfere but 

support individual members' research needs as 

directed by the Board member. We also urge the 

NOP to consider expanding the approved 
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reimbursable expenses to help farmers on the 

Board cover costs they incur to participate in 

the meetings, such as cost of hired help for their 

farm while performing Board duties.

Regarding fraud prevention, OFA 

appreciates the Board's work on deterring fraud. 

It continually ranks as a high priority for 

farmers. We support the Subcommittee's proposal 

requiring acreage reporting and their 

recommendations to the NOP regarding small, 

diversified growers. 

The reporting should count for 

succession planting where total acres per crop 

may exceed total farm acres. Organic paperwork 

is already burdensome for farmers, so 

streamlining this requirement and making sure it 

aligns with farms using paper records is 

important.

For traceability requirements, we ask 

that different marketing structures of various 

commodities, tracing sales data for commodity 
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corn, that you consider the different marketing 

structures for various commodities. Tracing 

sales data for commodity corn is very different 

obviously from tracing kale data for highly 

perishable wholesale market vegetables with many 

buyers.

In addition to oversight of 

certifiers, NOP must provide clear guidance when 

there's a discrepancy or questions on how organic 

standards should be interpreted. Any guidance 

should be transparent and distributed to all 

accredited certifiers. Regarding standardized 

forms, we encourage a pilot project focusing on 

areas of high fraud risk like grains, to identify 

how it affects certifiers, inspectors and 

farmers. We support exploring common forms for 

consistency and encourage collaboration with 

certifiers to identify the best existing models 

for replication and trial, as well as assessing 

what forms farmers are currently using.

Common forms do have the positive 
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ability to create more consistency among 

certifiers, and expand the opportunity for 

translation.

Finally, I'd like to support more 

Board and NOP attention to racial equity within 

the organic community, and efforts to actively 

address barriers to organic certification and 

success. While organic certification is 

undeniably rigid or is understandably rigid as a 

regulatory system and at times that is incredibly 

important, at times prioritizing our humanity and 

our commitment to the principles of care and 

fairness is equally if not more important.

Understanding our cultural 

differences, barriers to entry in agriculture and 

additional societal weight of people of color 

unfairly carry, it is important to expand who 

gets and stays certified organic. As forms are 

created and systems (audio interference), 

ensuring the racial equity lens that is applied 

must be a top priority. Thank you.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comments. Any questions for Kate? I just 

want to say how much I love this idea of 

translatability with universal forms, Kate. So 

thank you for bringing that up. That's great. 

Appreciate your time today. Next up we have Dana 

Perls, followed by Malaika Elias and then Jane 

Sooby. So Dana, if you would go ahead.

MS. PERLS: My name is Dana Perls. 

I'm the Food and Technology Senior Manager with 

Friends of the Earth. Thank you for this 

opportunity to provide comments to the NOSB about 

the Materials Subcommittee's research 

priorities.

Friends of the Earth first of all 

supports the recommendation of the National 

Organic Coalition about the NOP's need to improve 

its research and guidelines related to genetic 

engineering. We also want to encourage the NOP 

to commit to the following. First, to provide 

the necessary financial and labor resources, to 
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research and develop precautionary standards 

regarding contamination from genetically 

engineered plant material distributed via 

compost.

We really need more information about 

how transgenic DNA impacts the microbial ecology 

of a compost pile, and if the trait expressions 

of certain genetically engineered DNA are going 

to persist in the environment, including in the 

compost pile.

Secondly, there's a lot of uncertainty 

regarding how public germ plasm collections that 

house at risk crops are impacted by the 

transgenic content. So this also needs to be 

thoroughly researched. Thirdly, I want to 

recommend that we develop and implement methods 

to assess the genetic integrity of crops that are 

at risk of contamination from transgenic DNA, and 

this has been a big problem for a lot of farmers.

So the NOSB should quantify the 

current state of integrity for organic and 
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conventionally produced non-GMO seed. 

Fourth, we want to encourage the NOSB 

to evaluate the effectiveness of current 

prevention strategies to keep genetically 

engineered material from contaminating organic 

crops, and develop precautionary rules to improve 

the integrity of organic. And lastly, to develop 

and implement new technologies as well as tests 

and methodologies to differentiate organic crop 

production from convention production in order to 

detect and deter fraud.

So Friends of the Earth really 

supports the improvement and updates to the 

organic standards, which will help preserve the 

integrity of organic food in farming, 

particularly as genetic engineering technologies 

change and may impact organics. So thank you for 

your consideration of these comments. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

much for joining us and providing those comments. 

Mindee has a question for you.
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VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you, Dana. 

I really appreciate your relentless pursuit of 

advocacy and education around the emergence of 

biotechnology including agriculture. I know 

that you have a lot of exposure globally to how 

regulations are dealing with the rapid 

proliferation of biotechnology.

I am concerned about the recent 

executive order for advancing biotechnology, 

especially in the absence of USDA level support 

for the NOSB's work on excluded methods. I'm 

hoping you can offer examples or reflections on 

how organic moves forward, where it's succeeding 

internationally at excluding methods from organic 

systems?

MS. PERLS: Okay, thank you for your 

question. I think it's an important one. 

Biden's executive order is pretty unfortunate and 

does put a lot of money and attention into 

increasing funding and advocacy for genetic 

engineering technologies, amongst others. 
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The executive order shouldn't 

directly affect organic standards. However, 

it's going to be very important given those 

facts, advocacy for biotechnology, that the NOSB 

really recommends it not only to preserve its 

funding but actually to advocate for increased 

funding for research and advocacy work. The 

difference between the USDA standards for genetic 

engineering and definitions is very different 

from that of the National Organic Standards 

Program, and it will be really critical to work 

hard to protect those resources.

I think that otherwise, the difference 

in money could be a problem, and I think also in 

the context of the money being put into climate 

smart agriculture, it will be really important 

for the NOSB to advocate that actually organic is 

one of the most important appropriate 

technologies, and organic is actually the most 

climate smart form of agriculture that there is, 

as opposed to what a lot of the conventional ag 
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will argue, which is genetically engineered, 

drought tolerant. 

That won't, that won't fit within the 

organic standards, so that organic needs to be 

actually promoted as what's climate smart ag. In 

terms of your question with international, I 

think the NOSB has done a good job trying to keep 

up with international standards, in particular 

with Europe. But again, there's a constant push 

to erode the precautionary approach.

So the NOSB should continue to follow 

the Codex Alimentarius, and also keep up the 

evolving definitions and different types of 

genetic engineering technologies, to make sure 

that we're not slipping. At this point, I would 

say that the European standards are some of the 

highest. 

So it will be important for the Board 

to continue to track those definitions and 

excluded methods as well. Thanks for your 

question. Does that answer your question or any 
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follow-ups?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: It's great. I 

know that we're going to keep talking about it. 

I appreciate your vast exposure on the subject. 

Thank you for coming to our meeting today. 

MS. PERLS: Thanks for your question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have another 

question for you from Dilip. Dilip, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Hi Dana. Thank you 

for your comment. A very quick question. You 

have brought very interesting information, use of 

microbes in compost, which is, you know, getting 

a lot of interest and attention here in U.S. also 

and the growers.

So you mentioned about how it can 

affect genetically modified bacteria or fungus or 

any other microorganisms, you know, as in 

microbes can affect the compost pile and for 

their use in organic crop production. 

So the quick question I have are where 
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you can guide us or tell me where I can find or 

do you know the source where you found this 

information, whether it is in a published or 

unpublished, any source of information on it? 

Thank you.

MS. PERLS: Yeah, thank you for the 

question. I think most of what I can send you 

and where I try to source as much information as 

possible is some of the peer-reviewed journals 

that are coming out with -- the peer-reviewed 

academic studies that are looking at the impact 

of genetically engineered microorganisms or 

crops, and their persistence in the soil, the 

impacts on different insects, the impacts on 

other crops.

So there's an increasing number of 

research happening that looks at the unintended 

impacts of new genetic engineering technologies, 

in particular gene editing. There's also some 

studies coming out with a focus on soil. There's 

a report that we are finishing up at Friends of 
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the Earth looking at all of the different 

academic research on genetically engineered 

microbes, and also the impact on genetically 

engineered crops on the soil.

So it's an evolving set of reports and 

academic research that I would be happy to share 

with you. And again, this is an area that I 

think really needs a lot of research from the 

NOSB, and that's an area for more funding to go 

into this sort of research. So that, you know, 

if a farmer is using compost that may have crops 

that were genetically engineered in the compost 

pile, that that could affect their crops and pass 

along the DNA. 

So thank you for your question. I'd 

be happy to share some of those sources with you, 

as well as suggest how the NOSB might dive into 

that set of research.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Sure. I know 

Friends of Earth, in fact 2001 in Belgium I 

attended my first conference, and some of the 
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sources. So do you think that some of the 

publications are posted on their website or is in 

general, in general articles?

MS. PERLS: Yeah. No, there are some 

reports particularly around gene edited crops and 

the academic review, the review of the academic 

literature that's out there, and we're going to 

be publishing at the very beginning of the year 

a new report that surveys the literature on 

genetically engineered microbes and soil.

And so I can get you, I can get you a 

report for that separately, but it hasn't been 

posted yet. So you'll get that hot off the 

press.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

MS. PERLS: Thank you for your 

question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions from the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, Dana. 
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Thank you so much for your time today.

MS. PERLS: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Malaika Elias, followed by Jane Sooby and then 

Emily Musgrave.

MS. ELIAS: Yeah, good afternoon. My 

name is Malaika Elias, and I'm a food and 

technology campaigner with Friends of the Earth. 

I want to say thank you for this opportunity to 

provide comments to the NOSB about the Material 

Subcommittee's research priorities. I would 

though like to briefly turn my attention to the 

Handling Committee.

The NOSB recommendation to revise and 

propose alternatives for BPA is important, but I 

believe insufficient. Some classes of chemicals 

like PFAS, ortho-phthalates and bisphenols are 

toxic endocrine destructors and should be 

excluded from organic. BPA, PFAS and orthophthalates are found in organic food supplies 

through packaging and production, including in 
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machinery, and PFAS have been shown to cause 

endocrine and immune dysfunction, while orthophthalates have been associated with 

reproductive, developmental and endocrinerelated health effects.

Alternative to PFAS and orthophthalates, including untreated paper and other 

chemical-free packaging, and the cessation of 

manufacturing or selling ortho-phthalate laden 

equipment for organic food production must be 

thoroughly researched and shared with the organic 

community to you.

We also suggest a much deeper dive 

into research around plastic alternatives more 

broadly. Additionally, the use of any chemical 

that falls within these three chemical classes 

should require a specific petition for chemical 

before it may be considered for use in a specific 

organic product. 

This would be the same process as that 

which is used for other synthetic handling 
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materials, and would allow for a transparent 

discussion evaluating the chemical with the best 

available science and data before it's permitted, 

rather than discussing materials after they've 

been allowed.

And just to quickly reiterate what my 

colleague Dana just said, in light of the recent 

USDA announcement about funding for climate smart 

agriculture projects, we also urge the NOP to 

advocate for organic agriculture as climate smart 

agriculture. 

While the Biden administration is 

right to focus on mitigating climate change, many 

of the projects recently announced as receiving 

funding as part of the $2.8 billion for climate 

smart commodities will only funnel tens of 

millions of taxpayers to some of the most 

egregious climate offenders, including 

corporations like JBS and ADM. 

It's now more important than over that 

the USDA and NOSB promote organic agriculture as 
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truly climate smart ag, and not false solutions 

proposed by the biotech industry. So in 

conclusion, Friends of the Earth supports 

improvements and updates to the organic 

standards, which will help preserve the integrity 

of organic food and farming, and that's it. 

Thank you so much for integration of these 

comments.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

for making them. Any questions? 

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

you very much. Next up we have Jane Sooby, 

followed by Emily Musgrave and then Jackie 

DeWinter. Jane, please go ahead.

MS. SOOBY: Thank you so much and good 

afternoon everybody. I'm Jane Sooby with 

California Certified Organic Farmers or CCOF. We 

represent over 4,000 certified organic farms, 

ranches, dairies, food manufacturers and 

processor-handlers throughout North America. 
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It's heartening that the National 

Organic Standards Board and the National Organic 

Program are in conversation about the role of 

organic in climate smart agriculture, as the 

concept takes hold that agricultural producers 

should be rewarded and incentivized for growing 

crops and livestock in a manner that minimizes 

impact on the atmosphere and the environment.

The science is clear. Organic 

agriculture is climate smart, with numerous 

studies showing that organic farming sequesters 

carbon, reduces fossil fuel energy use and 

reduces greenhouse gas emissions. CCOF has 

summarized a lot of these data in our 2019 

publication "Roadmap to an Organic California 

Benefits Report.

It's right there in the federal 

organic standards, which require that all organic 

producers manage plant and animal materials to 

maintain or improve soil organic matter content 

in a manner that does not contribute to 
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contamination of crops, soil or water, and also 

they are required to manage crop nutrients and 

soil fertility through rotations, cover crops and 

the application of plants and animal materials, 

the very definition of climate smart practices.

We think that organic certification 

should be accepted as sufficient proof that a 

farm is climate smart for certified organic 

products to also bear the climate smart label. 

Certified organic operations should be 

acknowledged as early adopters of climate smart 

practices, including practices that reduce use of 

fossil fuel derived inputs.

This will reward existing certified 

organic farmers and incentivize more producers to 

transition to certified organic production. We 

really appreciate that the Compliance, 

Accreditation and Certification Subcommittee and 

the National Organic Program are working hard to 

address this vital issue. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 
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for your comments. We have question from Logan 

for you.

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you. Question 

about the organic transitioning and, you know, 

the initiative that we have and trying to get 

more acres organic. Do you see there being a 

problem down the road as far as the markets, or 

do you think those will be able to grow? Because 

sometimes I want to say I can grow as much as you 

need. It's just the sales side and the marketing 

side that really can be a bottleneck for growers 

and with a lot of acres coming on board quickly.

But do you see that on the other side? 

I know you handle a lot in the industry all 

throughout the entire industry?

MS. SOOBY: Yeah. Well, thank you 

for that question, Logan and that's a really 

important question that comes up here in 

California too, because we also have an organic 

transition program that we're developing here in 

the state. And we view a really crucial 
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component of all of these transition programs as 

building out market support and creating more 

market opportunities.

Oftentimes, that will mean like 

creating more opportunities for farmers to 

consolidate their, you know, smaller producers to 

consolidate their product, so that they can bring 

it to larger buyers. So there's a lot of 

different strategies that we can pursue, and we 

do think that, you know, that is a crucial part 

of the transition strategy.

We also now that, you know, in general 

for most crops, there is greater demand in the 

United States than there is domestic production. 

So there is that aspect as well.

MEMBER PETREY: Great, thank you for 

your answer.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure, thanks Nate. 

Thanks Jane for your oral comments here and all 
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the written comments CCOF provided us. I just 

have a quick question for you on acres on 

certificates. I know that's your current 

practice and I was just curious. How long has 

CCOF been doing this, and then what was the main 

driver in starting this practice on your 

certificates?

MS. SOOBY: Amy, I will have to ask 

our certification staff and get back to you on 

those two questions. So I'll make a note of 

those and follow up with you.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, 

Jane. Appreciate it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you Jane 

for your time and contributions.

MS. SOOBY: Thank you so much, and if 

I may have one moment to invite everybody who's 

going to be in Sacramento for the NOSB meeting, 

CCOF is hosting a reception on Wednesday evening 

in Sacramento from 4:00 to 6:00 p.m. That's 

Wednesday, October 26th and for more information 
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contact me. Everybody is invited. Thanks.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Fantastic. Thank 

you for that. Next up we have Emily Musgrave, 

followed by Jackie DeMinter and Tite Colin. 

Emily, please go ahead.

MS. MUSGRAVE: Great. Can you hear 

me okay?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can, thank 

you.

MS. MUSGRAVE: Great. Good 

afternoon. My name is Emily Musgrave. I'm the 

Organic Regulatory Manager at Driscoll's. As 

always, I would like to thank the NOSB for their 

commitment to protect the integrity of the 

organic program, and uphold the vital regulatory 

processes of the NOP.

My comments focus on the continued 

allowance of the following materials: 

biodegradable, bio-based mulch film, elemental 

sulfur, Polyoxin D zinc salt and micronutrients. 

Additionally, I am a voluntary member of 
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International Fresh Produce Association's (IFPA) 

Organics Committee, and Driscoll supports the 

comments made by IFPA.

Driscoll's supports the continued 

listing of biodegradable, bio-based mulch films 

on the National List. Driscoll's advocates for 

keeping BBMFs on the National List as there are 

still not many widely available ways to recycle 

this type of field plastic. Driscoll's, our 

growers and our very consumers are cognizant of 

the amount of plastic use throughout the 

agricultural industry, and believe there are 

innovative ways organic growers can reduce their 

plastic usage such as biodegradable, bio-based 

mulch films.

The current use of plastic mulch in 

organic agriculture is not sustainable because of 

the amount of waste it produces. After talking 

with over 50 recycling and technology companies 

over the past few years around the United States, 

it is our understanding that very little to none 
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of the plastic is being recycled due to the dirt 

contamination of the plastic.

Standard polyethylene plastic mulch 

is critical for the success of organic berry 

growers. Not relisting biodegradable, bio-based 

mulch would be a step backwards for innovation in 

the organic industry, and would force organic 

growers to continue sending vast amounts of 

plastic mulch to landfills.

Consumer expect that the organic label 

means growers are being environmental stewards of 

their land and farming in the most sustainable 

way possible. Driscoll's urges the Board not to 

go backwards on the innovation front, and to give 

the organic growers the option to continue using 

biodegradable, bio-based mulches in their 

operations.

Driscoll's supports the continued 

listing of elemental sulfur for use in organic 

production on the National List. Elemental 

sulfur is a critical amendment for organic 
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strawberry growers to decrease pH and alkaline 

soils and control powdery mildew. Dusting sulfur 

is preferred over wettable sulfur, particularly 

when environmental pressures of powdery mildew is 

high because it gets more thorough coverage 

during application. 

Driscoll's supports the continued 

relisting of Polyoxin D zinc salt on the National 

List, as it is an extremely effective tool to 

control botrytis in strawberry, blueberry and 

raspberry crops. Driscoll's advocates for the 

relisting of all micronutrient products up to rereview on the National List. All the 

micronutrient products up for sunset review are 

critical tools for organic growers.

I thank the National Organic Standards 

Board for your service and for consideration of 

my comments.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so 

much. We have a question for you from Dilip.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks Emily for 
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your wonderful talks and comments. I really 

appreciate this. A quick question on 

biodegradable mulch. You mentioned that you also 

work internationally, so I'm wondering, you know, 

biodegradable mulch here in U.S. is still in 

infancy and a lot of research is being done and 

it's not yet still very commercially, you know, 

available and popular among the growers.

So I'm wondering what can you tell us 

a little bit about how much use or what is the 

status of use of this biodegradable mulch 

internationally? I don't know, could be mostly 

in Europe maybe, European countries would be, I 

don't know, less in Asia. What can you tell us 

a little bit about them? Thank you.

MS. MUSGRAVE: That is a really good 

question, and I mostly work with our growers here 

in the U.S., definitely in Mexico as well. But 

I have to get back to you. We do have a global 

R&D team, so I know that I think there's 

definitely work and research on that. But let 
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me talk to our global R&D team, because that's a 

great question and I'll get back to you.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Sure.

MS. MUSGRAVE: I also do want to 

mention a lot of our conventional growers before 

biodegradable, bio-based mulch when it had the 

previous restriction, the 100 percent bio-based 

that manufacturers couldn't meet, a lot of our 

conventional growers who also had organic were 

trialing the biodegradable, bio-based mulches on 

their conventional fields. 

So I know there's a lot of interest 

and they've been -- but I'd be very interested to 

find out about globally what kind of research is 

being done in other countries. So I'll get back 

to you.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

MS. MUSGRAVE: You're welcome.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure, thank you. 
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Emily, thanks for your participation today. You 

mentioned in the written comments and also I 

heard them in your oral comments about, you know, 

the BBMF giving growers the option to continue 

using this. So we've heard from other commenters 

that really this is more aspirational. But are 

you indicating that there are products that meet 

the definition that your growers are using at 

this point in time, the organic growers?

MS. MUSGRAVE: No, and in fact I 

anticipated that question coming, so I should 

have -- apologies. I should, I can find out. I 

am not 100 percent certain if any of our current 

organic growers were using it. I know 

conventional growers were trialing it before, but 

I can also find out if any of our current growers 

are using any of the BBMF methods available now 

and get back to you.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you.

MS. MUSGRAVE: Great question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan, please go 
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ahead.

MEMBER PETREY: I just remembered 

Driscoll's are strawberries, so I kind of 

answered my own question because I was thinking, 

you know, with blacks like in your picture and 

blueberries, you probably wouldn't be using the 

biodegradable, bio-based mulch. That would be 

great, right? 

You kind of want that more permanent, 

but it's strawberries and for the other things, 

yeah. You would be using a lot. There's a lot 

of plastic use in Driscoll's for that, and that 

is one -- for your organic growers, that is a one 

crop use. Rip up, go back again the following 

year; correct?

MS. MUSGRAVE: Oh, a lot of plastic, 

and that's something else, right? Even though 

every year, as part of the organic regulations, 

they are removing all of that plastic, right? 

And they do their very best, but oftentimes 

there's a little bit that somehow gets, you know, 
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overlooked. And so that's the type of things 

they would never want to see, right, polyethylene 

plastic going directly into the soil, and so 

that's the tough one there.

MEMBER PETREY: So you're a huge user 

of like as a company. I know you have contract 

growers and things. I understand that. If a 

plastic company were to be interested in 

innovation, it seems like you guys would probably 

be a good -- not necessarily partner, but you 

know, offer that, the growers and kind of that 

research to be done. Has that been done at all? 

Have people reached out to you guys as a company?

MS. MUSGRAVE: I think that has been, 

and it's more and more starting, but yeah

absolutely. I think the companies have been 

reaching out to us, and I think we'd really be 

happy to trial things, because clearly more 

research needs to be done, and since we're, you 

know, big users of plastic mulch and it's 

necessary, I think that -- I mean I think they 
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would welcome that and also, you know, to further 

help innovate this and continue their research, 

I would say absolutely.

So if there's any manufacturers out 

there that, you know, want to get in touch with 

us, I'd be happy to get you in touch with our R&D 

teams and learning folks to get some trials, 

absolutely.

MEMBER PETREY: As a huge plastic 

user, you guys are for some kind of alternative, 

getting there and getting them. Okay.

MS. MUSGRAVE: Absolutely, yeah. 

Absolutely.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee, please go 

ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you. 

Thank you, Emily. Do you know if any of your 

growers are working on biological and cultural 

methods as opposed to plastics or synthetics?

MS. MUSGRAVE: That's a good 

question. I think for sure growers have tried 
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it. The efficacy has just not been there 

unfortunately. But it's a good question and I 

can dig into it further, but from what I know and 

if you look at strawberries in Salinas Valley, 

it's pretty standard, organic and conventional, 

to use the plastic mulch, and I think there's a 

reason for that.

I think that other materials haven't 

proved really, the efficacy just really hasn't 

been there. But it's a very, it's a good thought 

and I can see how much, you know, we've tried on 

that. But in general, I don't know that it just 

holds up the same way that polyethylene plastic 

does, so good question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Emily from the Board? Emily, just 

to reiterate, and this is a question I think we 

all have. We don't, I don't think I know of any 

examples of actual products, meaning the 80 or 

the 100 percent BBMF definition. If you do have 

any brands or specific materials that you would 
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share with us, that would be great.

MS. MUSGRAVE: Okay. I'll follow up 

with our folks that have been doing some trials, 

and see if we, if we know of any.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so 

much. Appreciate your comments today.

MS. MUSGRAVE: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we've got 

Jackie DeMinter, followed by Tite Colin, and 

then Joanna Mirenda. Jackie, please go ahead.

MS. DeMINTER: Good afternoon. My 

name is Jackie DeMinter. I am the certification 

policy at MOSA. Thank you for the opportunity 

to comment. MOSA certifies around 2,000 organic 

operations throughout the U.S., including over 

1,750 with crops, 700 with livestock and 325 

handlers.

I am commenting today on the CACS 

acreage reporting proposal and the minimum 

reporting requirements discussion document. The 

CACS recommends that NOP require certifiers to 
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list a certified operations harvested acres by 

crop type and total acres on organic 

certificates, proposing that this change would 

help prevent fraud.

While we support preventing fraud 

wherever possible, we have several concerns. 

Taxonomy differs among certifiers. Acreage 

reported on certificates could be misleading or 

inaccurate; double crop reporting presents a 

challenge, and making acreage and cropping data 

public could overshare information confidential 

to farmers. Information reported to the 

integrity database must be specific to be 

valuable, and we note that most information 

currently is reported in the Other category.

In practice, crops may not be sold in 

the year they were grown, presenting a concern if 

crops represented on a certificate must be 

supported by an acreage amount, and may imply 

fraud where there is none. Stored crops are 

often sold in wait and see scenarios, where an 
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operation's current certificate reflects last 

year's harvest, but this year's crop is already 

being marketed.

MOSA collects annual crop acreage and 

anticipated yields on a form called the certified 

organic product sheet. We encourage NOSB to take 

this same approach. The dated acreage and cropspecific information could be presented to buyers 

on request. This addendum to the certificate 

approach does not differ with how processed 

products are often represented, or with how mixed 

crops are verified.

Generic language is used on 

certificates with a separate addendum listing 

specific products for crops. We do not believe 

that this proposal will reduce overall fraud. 

Moving on to the minimum reporting 

requirements discussion document, certifiers try 

to improve audits for crop acreage, yield and 

sales. Form templates could be part of the 

Learning Center forces or developed by ACA 
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working groups. ACA has several ones that 

facilitate standardized information collection 

and uniform decision-making, including dry matter 

intake verification and enforcement, and natural 

flavors verification.

We encourage the NOP to remain 

actively engaged in reviewing ACA best practice 

documents, and encourage cooperative development 

of universal template documents to achieve 

consistency. 

In closing, please also consider our 

written comments on potassium hydroxide. We're 

happy to answer any questions you may have and 

thank you so much for your work on these important 

topics.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comment. So Amy has a question for you.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. Jackie, thanks 

for your participation today. I really 

appreciate it. Just a quick question on your 

addendum, your certified crop addendum. How are 
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you handling double crop acres on that, because 

you mentioned that would be a challenge if we 

were reporting that on a certificate. So I'm 

just curious on your addendum, how is that 

reflected?

MS. DeMINTER: We reflect it on the 

same line item essentially, that the acreage 

attached to both of the crops are double-cropped, 

so it's clear that the same acreage is used to 

grow those two or more crops.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have one quick 

question for you, Jackie. I appreciate all of 

the concerns you've raised. I think they're all 

really well founded. In thinking about taking 

your COPS, your C-O-P-S document and essentially 

in a very similar way having that be the addendum 

of acres on certificates, do you --

I guess do you see any trouble with 

that, as inspectors are required to do audits and 

do complete audits, they may be looking several 
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years back and that's normal practice. We have 

the right to look five years back if necessary. 

Sort of putting this in one bucket, do you have 

any other ideas of ways that inspectors can be 

better equipped to raise red flags as far as 

establishing whether or not something seems like 

overselling or overproduction?

MS. DeMINTER: I think standardized 

audit documents, maybe not standardized but 

template audit documents where we collect 

information or attach information from a set of 

information would be helpful, you know, for 

overall reporting on that. We agree that you 

should as inspectors be looking back for multiple 

years and into last year and previous years for 

a complete audit on a crop sale.

Oftentimes when those crops are 

stored, reviewers between -- or excuse me, 

relationships between reviewers and inspectors is 

really extremely important, and we do need to 

develop that risk assessment guidance, you know, 
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get a more robust set of risk assessment 

standards available for certifiers and inspectors 

to gather that risk and where that risk is so 

they can correctly pinpoint it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well, 

really appreciate all of the information, both 

written and oral today. Dilip has a question for 

you.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Jackie. 

Very quick just to follow up kind of you 

answered partially for Nate's question, what are 

your thoughts on, you know, the split organic 

production dollar gross they have and operations 

they have, you know, mixed production like 

conventional as well as organic? 

So what do you think in that 

perspective how, you know, we can look into that 

from the point, split or parallel production, you 

know sometimes they call it, so yeah.

MS. DeMINTER: We actually require 

our farmers to report all of their conventional 
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acres, and we record the conventional acres in a 

manner on that COPS form that I was mentioning. 

That way, it is a risk factor identified on 

operations and we can tell where there is that 

split and/or parallel production. We really want 

to give a careful eye to operations that maintain 

non-organic production of any sort on their 

operations.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

MS. DeMINTER: I think it should be 

part of the reporting requirements and part of 

the audit that certifiers are doing.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Right, thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

other questions for Jackie?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thanks so much 

for your comments. Next up we have Tite Colin, 

followed by Joanna Mirenda, and we're closing out 

today with Laura Holm. So Tite, please go ahead.

MS. ARSENAULT: We don't see him on 
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the list with us, Nate. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay, we'll move 

right on. Joanna Mirenda, please go ahead.

MS. MIRENDA: Good afternoon, how's 

the audio?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Good. I'm 

wondering if you and Mindee and I have all colorcoordinated our shirts today, or if that's just 

a life issue?

MS. MIRENDA: Yes. It is October, 

break out the plaid.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Right.

MS. MIRENDA: Okay. Well good 

afternoon, everyone. I'm Jo Mirenda, Form Policy 

Director for the Organic Trade Association. OTA 

is the membership business association for 

organic agriculture and products in the United 

States. I need to see where my timer is. Okay, 

there you are. Thanks. OTA is the leading voice 

for promoting and protecting the organic trade in 

the United States, representing organic 
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businesses across all 50 states, all sectors of 

food, feed and fiber, and all stages of the value 

chain from growers to retail.

My other colleagues will be speaking 

on other topics, and for now I will address risk 

mitigation and biodegradable mulch. OTA 

supports the proposal for revising the NOP risk 

mitigation table, and especially support 

broadening the assessment of possible risks of 

favoritism, undue influence and risks related to 

certifiers within state departments of 

agriculture.

Biodegradable, bio-based mulch film, 

which is under sunset review for crops, OTA 

supports the continued listing of biodegradable 

mulch on the National List. It is a critical 

step to allow time to implement the NOSB's Fall 

2021 rulemaking recommendation to amend the 

definition of biodegradable mulch, and it's just 

added to the Office of Management and Budget's 

Spring 2022 Unified Agenda of Regulatory Actions.
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This is an important indicator of 

regulatory progress, so don't stop now. 

Additional time is needed for USDA to publish the 

proposed rule, take public comments and complete 

the rulemaking process. The recommendation 

advances a regulatory solution for allowing this 

material as an alternative to non-recyclable 

plastic, which you've been working on since 2015.

Delisting at this sunset review is 

premature and would disrupt this rulemaking 

process after so many years. Other downsides of 

delisting biodegradable mulch at this time. One 

is that it would hinder the momentum on research 

and development of allowable products that would 

comply with the NOSB's Fall 2021 recommendation. 

Manufacturers indicated in the public 

record that materials meeting that annotation 

could be made in the near future, so delisting 

this material would eliminate their motivation to 

continue developing products for the organic 

sector. 
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Second, USDA's OREI grant program has 

awarded funding to the Organic Center to hold a 

conference next spring specifically on the topic 

of biodegradable mulch and other plastic 

alternatives in organic agriculture, and you've 

included this as a topic on your research 

priority list. So delisting this material would 

deter the much-needed prioritization and funding 

of research on biodegradable mulches that are 

safe, NOP-compliant and available to the organic 

community.

So in closing, the listing of 

biodegradable mulch presents an opportunity to 

encourage development of alternative plastic 

materials, and for these reasons please relist.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

for your comments. Do we have any questions for 

Jo from the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have a question 

for you, Jo. Oh no, Mindee's going to beat me 
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to it. Mindee, please go ahead. 

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No, thanks. I 

was just curious if you see like if we're looking 

down in the future and we're not sure we know 

what the impacts on the soil are of these 

materials, and we find out later. Do you see the 

risk is worth it in the sense of continuing our 

research, and looking for more development? 

That's kind of the trajectory I'm looking for.

MS. MIRENDA: I think relisting 

allows the opportunity for the research to 

proceed. For example, this conference in the 

spring, the Organic Confluences listed by the 

Organic Center will bring together scientists, 

manufacturers and producers to discuss the latest 

in organic, I'm sorry, in biodegradable mulch 

research, as well as discussing alternatives.

So you've been asking about the nonsynthetic alternatives. This is the place to 

have the robust discussions over the course of 

multiple days with scientists in the room as well 
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as growers. So the worry is that delisting this 

material would remove their motivation and 

incentive to continue the discussion and research 

that is really greatly needed.

Plus, you know, the rulemaking 

process, you all need -- since you can't do 

annotation changes at sunset, you have to be 

prepared for parallel efforts of amending 

annotations, letting that rulemaking process 

happen, while relisting at sunset. So otherwise, 

you are eliminating the opportunity to see 

through the regulatory solution you just put on 

the table last fall.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure. Thanks, Nate. 

So I remember a previous meeting that there was 

this question to you about National List items, 

so I want to follow suit on that. Do you know, 

is there currently any National List items that 

are not real products? For example, 
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biodegradable, bio-based mulch that we're 

reviewing is not currently in circulation. It's 

aspirational.

So I'm just wondering is there a 

precedent on the National List for something such 

as this to have occurred before?

MS. MIRENDA: I would say this is a 

pretty unique instance. The only comparable 

example would be something like -- or at least I 

can think off the top of my head would be 

something like oil-free nitrogen on 605, which 

has an annotation that is obsolete because that 

manufacturing process doesn't exist anymore, and 

innovation has eliminated the need for that type 

of residue. So, but no. I think biodegradable 

mulch is certainly a unique example.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, thank you. I 

appreciate that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. I could 

ask my question now. On, so over the past few 

years, quite a bit of Board time has gone into 
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BBMF. A lot of smart people putting a lot of 

good work into it, and it doesn't seem to have 

really yielded anything. So the question I would 

have for you is one, are we doing something wrong? 

Like should we just say wait for someone to 

petition their material on, instead of trying to 

have this goal post to come through?

Or is there something we can be 

thinking about? Obviously, you know, 

eliminating plastic, this is a great goal post, 

but it doesn't seem to be effective. So seven 

years on, lots of Board hours and nothing to show 

for it. What are your thoughts?

MS. MIRENDA: Well, I would give 

yourselves some more credit. A lot of great work 

has been done. There's been four technical 

reports, an expert panel and years and years of 

public commentary, and this remains a topic of 

considerable public attention and in the 

regulatory lifetime, seven years is really fast.

So just since the recommendation from 
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last fall was passed, it's just now getting onto 

the USDA's regulatory agenda. So I would give 

yourselves and the farmers interested and wanting 

some other options, to see this through as best 

you can.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, I 

appreciate that. All right. Any other 

questions for Jo? All right, thank you Jo. Last 

today is Laura Holm. 

MS. HOLM: Good afternoon. My name 

is Laura Holm, and I'm the Government Affairs 

Associate of the Organic Trade Association. I 

became involved in organics when my family began 

transition in 2002. I was a laborer at Holm 

Girls Dairy for over ten years, while I worked to 

educate consumers and buyers on organic 

agriculture through Organic Valley's Farmers and 

Marketing Program.

I have labored on a goat dairy and a 

vegetable CSA. I have 16 years' volunteer 

experience with Wisconsin 4H, and I'm in my final 
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year of law school. Thank you for the 

opportunity to provide comments on organic and 

climate smart agriculture. You have OTA's 

written comments with our full support and some 

additions to the CAC Subcommittee discussion 

document on organic and climate smart 

agriculture.

Fundamentally, we know that organic is 

a climate smart farming system due to its 

foundational focus on soil health through 

continuous regeneration of organic materials. 

In our comments, we have provided additional 

examples of existing data that support the link 

between organic practices and climate mitigation, 

and we have pointed to research USDA should 

prioritize.

Of note, long-term studies of scale 

are needed to determine the most effective carbon 

sequestration techniques in organic systems. 

Such research can evaluate the relative impacts 

of different organic management practices on soil 
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health outcomes, and identify which practices are 

most efficient and effective, depending on each 

farm's unique circumstance.

Right now, organic research is too 

general to tailor to every soil type, crop type 

or region of operation. Increased data 

collection is needed to open the door for organic 

farmers to receive market recognition for their 

hard work to preserve their ecosystems. We need 

a climate impact model that can accurately 

predict the benefits of the most complex organic 

system plans.

USDA should fund more life cycle 

analyses of organic farms, similar to the dairy 

LCA collaboration between Organic Valley and UWMadison published in the Journal of Cleaner 

Production. Organic farms should be recognized 

by USDA for the greenhouse gas emissions they 

prevent by opting out of fossil fuel-based 

fertilizers.

USDA should provide technical 
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assistance and funding for any farmer wishing to 

implement a measure of the benefits of adapting 

multi-paddock grazing, which is modeled after 

indigenous livestock management practices and 

necessary for effective pasture management. 

Finally, organic farmers need 

culturally relevant technical assistance to 

achieve certification expert organic agronomy 

advisors who are fluent in languages other than 

English, particularly Spanish and Mung, should be 

supported by USDA to ensure all farmers 

practicing organic management have access to 

certification.

There's a saying among farmers if they 

don't farm to live, they live to farm. In my 

experience, organic farmers don't mitigate 

climate change for a price premium; they do it 

for love of the land and USDA should empower this 

work to continue. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well thank you so 

much for those comments. I really appreciate 
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that. Any questions for Laura from the Board?

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm just 

reflecting on your statement, Laura, so I don't 

have one that's popping to mind immediately, but 

I really appreciate everything you just said, as 

I think the rest of the Board does as well. Thank 

you for your time today and your comments.

MS. HOLM: Thank you so much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

with that folks, we are done with Day 1 of Public 

Comments. Thank you, thank you everybody. 

Shout out to the team, shout out to everyone who 

participated. This was really lovely.

MS. TUCKER: And Nate, shout out to 

you. That was very well facilitated. Thank 

you so much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

appreciate that. It's an honor to serve. 

Well, we're going to do it again folks on 

Thursday, same time, same place, and please let 
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us know for those who have -- who the Board 

requested follow-up, please send that data, and 

we are gearing up to head to California.

MS. ARSENAULT: Perfect timing, Nate.

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MS. ARSENAULT: We're losing you a 

little, Nate. You got a little frozen there, but 

perfect timing at the end of the webinar. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We made it!

MS. ARSENAULT: There, that's better.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

last questions from the Board? 

(No response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, great. 

Well thank you everybody, and six minutes over, 

but we did pretty good on time all things 

considered, so thanks everyone for hanging in 

there. All right. See you Thursday.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 5:06 p.m.)
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

PUBLIC COMMENT WEBINAR

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

OCTOBER 20, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met via Video 

Teleconference, at 12:00 p.m. EDT, Nathaniel 

Powell-Palm, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFREY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

GERARD D'AMORE

CAROLYN DIMITRI

LIZ GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

WOOD TURNER

JAVIER ZAMORA
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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

DAVID GLASGOW, NOP Associate Deputy

Administrator

ERIN HEALY, Division Director Standards

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist

DEVON PATTILLO, Agricultural Marketing

Specialist

JENNIFER TUCKER, NOP, Deputy Administrator
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

12:00 p.m.

MS. ARSENAULT: So welcome, 

everybody, back to day 2 of the NOSB public 

comment webinar, or welcome to Thursday, or 

welcome back if you were with us on Tuesday. I'm 

going to run through some administrative 

housekeeping stuff before we get started.

So we ask that you please stay on mute 

to minimize background noise, and you can keep 

your camera off for bandwidth issues. You'll 

find those two buttons: the mute button -- your 

mic button and your video camera button on the 

left-hand side of your Zoom task bar. For some 

people it might be on the top; some people on the 

bottom. If you hover over your Zoom window, it 

should appear for you.

The chat is enabled and you'll find 

the chat button in the center of your Zoom task 

bar. You can chat with each other, relay 

technical difficulties to NOP, but chats are not 
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part of the public record and are not a public 

comment and we won't be answering technical 

questions in the chat box. The Board members 

aren't interacting via the chat either.

Closed captioning is available in 

Zoom. If you click the button sort of in the 

middle to the right; it says CC, it's the live 

transcript, you can change your own personal 

view, you can see it if you want, not see it if 

you don't want. You can also change the font 

size if you need it bigger or smaller.

Next to that you'll see the reactions 

button which has a raise hand feature. That 

feature is only going to be used today by the 

Board members when they -- it comes time for them 

to ask questions. So we ask that you don't use 

the raise hand feature. All commenters signed 

up in advance and Nate will call on them as 

they're -- call on them in turn.

You can customize your own view in 

Zoom and rearrange what you see on your personal 
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screen. If you go to the upper right corner to 

the view button you can toggle between gallery 

view and speaker view. We're going to spotlight 

the speaker timer for everyone, so that should 

remain on your screen no matter what view you're 

using. And we usually spotlight the person who's 

speaking and intermittently the Board Chair or 

Board members who are asking questions.

If you have any technical problems, 

you can call -- sorry, email support.zoom.us and 

they're pretty responsive and should get you all 

set up quick. You can also log out of the Zoom 

meeting and log back in, which fixes a multitude 

of problems sometimes.

The webinar again is being recorded. 

We do have a transcript -- a transcriptionist 

with us. The transcript will be available a 

couple of weeks after the conclusion of the Board 

meeting next week.

So, speakers, please make sure that 

your name displayed on your video title is 
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correct so that we can locate you when it's your 

turn to speak. If you're dialing in just on the 

phone, we may have to locate you via the phone 

number, so hopefully the phone number that you 

provided us is the one you're calling in from. If 

we can't find you, we may chat in and ask you to 

respond and let us know that you're on the line 

with us so we can find you.

Do please stay on mute until it's your 

turn to comment. When Nate calls your name, you

can un-mute yourself and turn your camera on if 

you want. It's optional. You don't have to be 

on camera. And again, both the mic and the 

camera icons are on the left side of your Zoom 

task bar. It's also in your -- next to your name 

in the participant list you should see a more 

button. You can also un-mute yourself from that 

area as well. If you're on the phone only and 

you don't have a mute button on your phone, you 

can touch *6 and that toggles between muting and 

un-muting.
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Now I'm going to turn the mic over to 

Jennifer Tucker, the National Organic Program 

deputy administrator, to reconvene us from our 

recess on Tuesday. Jenny?

MS. TUCKER: All righty. Welcome 

back, everybody, for round 2. 

And, Michelle, thank you for the 

overview as usual. 

I am out here in actually what is 

right now a nice day in Yakima, Washington. So 

I'm out visiting some tree fruit folks and so --

and getting used to life on the West Coast and 

having to add three hours to everything. So it 

is good to see you all.

And so again my name is Jennifer 

Tucker. I'm the deputy administrator of the 

National Organic Program. I want to again 

welcome all of our National Organic Standards 

Board members and our audience today.

As I mentioned on Tuesday, this is our 

first experiment in returning to a hybrid 
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meeting. We're finishing up public comments 

today and then we're going to do an in-person 

meeting, which we are hoping to broadcast in a 

live stream from Sacramento, California next 

week. So look forward to that experiment 

together. 

And so on Tuesday I shared some things 

that I'm grateful for, and so for folks who were 

not on the phone on Tuesday I would like to just 

repeat that because I think it is worth the 

reflection together as we enter our next stage of 

the process. 

So I continue to be grateful that we 

really did already have a lot of years of 

experience in online comments before COVID hit, 

and that made it so the last three years of 

meetings we were able to move to that purely 

online version. I know we are very eager and 

anxious to see each other in person again and I 

want to celebrate the work we did together 

online.
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That is particularly true when we talk 

about this particular Board has worked so well 

together without actually many of them meeting in 

person. In fact when we get together next week, 

I think only one person will have been sitting at 

the front of the room on the Board that had been 

at a meeting before. And so that is special. 

And the fact that this team has built such 

comradery despite that virtual environment is 

really a tribute to their dedication.

I am also grateful for this community 

and your continued engagement on tough issues, 

many of which have spanned a long time and that 

continue to have twists and turns. And you've 

continued to stay with it and we appreciate that.

And I'm grateful for the team at the 

National Organic Program that continues to 

tirelessly work to bring us together and to 

uphold and honor the process and the work that 

comes out of these meetings.

Thank you to our public commenters 
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here today for engaging in the process and for 

the audience that is holding the space for those 

folks. 

I do want to pause again for virtual 

applause to acknowledge the moment to thank all 

of you and to thank our team. So we applaud by 

doing two hands into the screen. Next week we 

will actually hear ourselves do that, so I think 

that will be a special moment.

This meeting, like all other meetings 

of the National Organic Standards Board, is run 

based on the Federal Advisory Committee Act and 

the Board's Policy and Procedure Manual.

Meeting access information for all 

meeting segments is on the NOSB meeting page on 

the USDA website. As Michelle mentioned, 

transcripts will be posted once they're

completed. I will act as the designated federal 

officer for all meeting segments, but Nate 

Powell-Palm, the Board Chair, will take the helm 

for this session.
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As I noted at the start of Tuesday and 

previous meetings, in an open transparent process 

mutual respect is critical. We ask you in 

advance to avoid personal attacks and 

disparagement. Please engage with grace both 

when you speak into the mic and when you chat 

into the chat box.

To close, again I want to thank the 

National Organic Program team. It is again an 

amazing team that I am privileged to work with. 

So Michelle Arsenault, who just does amazing work 

to make this entire process happen. People 

across USDA contact Michelle to ask well, we hear 

your meetings go really well; how do you do that? 

It is known as a topnotch advisory board.

Jared Clark, Andrea Holm, Devon Patillo, 

Dave Glasgow and our standards director Erin 

Healy. So big round of applause for all of you. 

Thank you so much.

I'm going to now hand the mic back to 

Michelle who will do the roll call and look 
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forward to your comments from here. Thank you 

so much.

MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you, Jenny. 

Always inspiring. Thank you.

All right. Nate Powell-Palm?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Present. Excited 

for the day.

MS. ARSENAULT: Mindee Jeffrey?

VICE CHAIR JEFFREY: Morning.

MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning.

Kyla Smith?

MEMBER SMITH: I'm here. Hello, 

everybody.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hello, Kyla.

Amy Bruch?

MEMBER BRUCH: Good morning. 

Present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Amy.

Brian Caldwell?

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hello, Brian.
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Carolyn Dimitri?

Oh, Jerry, I skipped over you 

alphabetically. Carolyn -- I'm going to go over 

to Carolyn. Carolyn Dimitri?

Carolyn's on the phone with us. Give 

her a second to figure out muting and un-muting. 

All right. I'm going go -- Jerry 

D'Amore?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Good morning. I'm 

here.

MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Jerry.

I'll come back to Carolyn. She's 

having trouble un-muting.

Rick Greenwood?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I'm here.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hello, sir.

Kim Huseman?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hello. I'm here.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Kim.

Allison Johnson?

MEMBER JOHNSON: Good morning. 
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Present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hello, Allison.

Dilip Nandwani?

MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning. 

Present.

MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning, Dilip.

Logan Petrey?

MEMBER PETREY: Hi, I'm present. 

Thank you.

MS. ARSENAULT: Hi, Logan.

Wood Turner?

MEMBER TURNER: Good morning. Good 

afternoon.

MS. ARSENAULT: Good 

morning/afternoon.

And, Javier Zamora?

MEMBER ZAMORA: Buenos dias. Good 

morning all of you. I am here.

MS. ARSENAULT: Good morning.

Okay. I'm going to go back to 

Carolyn.
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Carolyn, are you able to un-mute 

yourself?

MEMBER CALDWELL: She's texted no, 

but I'm here.

MS. ARSENAULT: Okay. Try *6 on your 

phone because I can see your phone and it does 

not have a red slash through it.

And I'm going to -- Liz Graznak had a 

bit of a family emergency and she's going to be 

joining us just a little bit late. So she's 

going to call in shortly.

So, all right. Nate?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

Welcome back, folks. Another exciting day.

I just wanted to give a shout out to 

everyone who commented on Tuesday. It was a 

really nice session and I think that we are all 

embracing in a big way that this is something 

that's exciting. We're really honored to be part 

of this group and hear from you all and really 

excited that all of you are stepping up and 
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telling us what is so great about organic? Why 

is this is a community and an industry worth 

fighting for? So thank you for bringing your 

ideas and your inspiration on Tuesday and excited 

to hear more today.

A little bit of a reminder on our 

Policy and Procedures Manual about public 

comments. All speakers will be recognized 

because they signed up during the registration 

period. Persons must give their names and 

affiliations for the record at the beginning of 

their public comment. Proxy speakers are not 

permitted.

Individuals providing public comment 

shall refrain from making any personal attacks or 

remarks that might impugn the character of any 

other individual. 

Members of the public are asked to 

define clearly and succinctly the issues they 

wish to present before the Board. This will give 

us NOSB members a comprehensive understanding of 
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the speaker's concerns.

I'll call on the speakers in the order 

of the schedule and will announce the next person 

or two so they can prepare. Please remember to 

state your name and affiliation and then we're 

going to start the timer. 

Board members will indicate to me if 

they have any questions and I'll call on them. 

Only NOSB members are allowed to ask questions.

So with that, any opening --

MS. ARSENAULT: Nate?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, yes?

MS. ARSENAULT: Nate, can I test the 

timer to make sure you guys can all hear it?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, please.

MS. ARSENAULT: Thank you. All 

right. (Timer sounds.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Music to our 

ears.

MS. ARSENAULT: All right. Thank 

you.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sounding good. 

Thank you.

Any opening questions from the Board 

before we get started?

All right. Our first speaker today 

is going to be Angela Wartes followed by Garth 

Kahl and then Amy van Saun.

Angela, if you're there, the floor is 

yours.

MS. WARTES: Can everybody hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can, thank 

you. Please go ahead.

MS. WARTES: Oh, good. Reporting 

from Croatia. Hello.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hello.

MS. WARTES: My name is Angela Wartes. 

I'm the board president for Organic Integrity 

Cooperative Guild. I want to thank the members 

of the NOSB for their voluntary time and 

commitment to this process and for the 

opportunity to give oral comments today. My 
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comments are specific to the proposals in the 

Compliance Accreditation Certification 

Subcommittee.

I want to share with you how the lack 

of acreage and crop information on NOP organic 

certificates impacts the broader industry of 

fiber commodity trading. 

I mostly work in the natural fiber 

space with clients certified to the Global 

Organic Textile Standard. All certified GOTS 

goods must contain certified organic natural 

fibers ranging from 70 to 95 percent to qualify 

for their label; examples being organic cotton, 

wool, fiberflax, hemp, et cetera.

Much of the organic cotton crop in the 

United States is destined to be traded under the 

GOTS or Textile Exchange standards each year. 

These private standards present external 

pressures to the NOP certificate system and ask 

for more detailed information on farm acreage, 

crop rotation, expected yields, climate impacts, 
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et cetera, before the farmer can sell them to 

their certified supply chain. 

We are at a disadvantage when a clear 

acreage number is not included on an organic 

certificate. We need to connect the field with 

the crop, and the crop to the acreage, and the 

acreage to the expected yield. These standards 

are working toward tracking an entire year's crop 

of cotton and every single buyer involved as a 

transparency tool to fight fraud. 

The certification world is moving 

forward to fight fraud and we need to join them. 

Acreage reporting is long overdue when all 

other -- when most other countries have already 

implemented these measures and are currently 

importing their organic NOP-certified products 

into the United States.

Inspectors need access to this 

information to be able to do our job more 

effectively. Spot checks comparing acreage to 

expected yield will become a common assignment in 
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inspector work orders. I feel the NOP needs to 

make the acreage and crop information available 

to the public via the Organic Integrity Database 

and not only for certifiers; i.e., the Open 

Government Data Act of 2018 would be a good start. 

I support -- also support any attempt 

to assist NOSB members with their administrative 

burden and help them better serve the industry 

for their full five years of voluntary time and 

hope that we can move any kind of assistance 

forward for them with the proposal at hand. 

Thank you for your time today.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

your comments, both oral and written. Appreciate 

it. Any questions for Angela?

I have one quick question for you. 

Oh, sorry. Please go ahead, Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Oh, sorry. Go ahead, 

Nate, and then I'll follow.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. My 

question for you, Angela, was my understanding is 
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the Organic Integrity Cooperative Guild as well 

as your other work in the certification 

industry -- you have a lot of experience in the

actual inspection side. So if we think about 

this crops on certificates question, which is the 

proposal before CACS, when you're actually at an 

inspection do you think it's feasible that an 

inspector would be able to learn of the suppliers 

for a given operation and then look them up in 

the OID if this information was behind a 

firewall, or do you think it would be too 

cumbersome and we wouldn't actually have -- the 

inspector wouldn't get it done, rather than just 

looking at the certificates which are right

there, hard copy presented to the inspector? 

Which do you think would be a better tool for 

fighting fraud?

MS. WARTES: I feel like I use the OID 

all the time. I'm on vacation right now so I'm 

not on that site every day, but I'm probably there 

three times a day. And I am -- and I can say 
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without a doubt that I don't think that I've ever 

been on an inspection where every single 

certificate was accurate, current, had the listed 

product on it of the supplier, had the correct 

address, was the correct company. I mean, 

anything you could imagine can be out there at an 

inspection that requires an inspector to take a 

deeper dive into what the -- what's really 

happening in the supply chain. 

And the OID is the -- is a phenomenal 

tool for that. And it means that you in real 

time can assess what is happening. And so I feel 

like it -- I would use it extensively to determine 

whether or not the crop yield of maybe a hay farm 

was accurate to how many acres they actually have 

in production that year. I mean, it's -- yes, I 

think it's just a no-brainer at this point. We 

just -- we really need to combine all these tools 

into one accessible spot.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

Amy, please go ahead.
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MEMBER BRUCH: Certainly, Nate. 

And thank you, Angela, for your time 

here today and making that work, calling in from 

Croatia. I really appreciate your information. 

That was really interesting. I know that you 

provided information about different 

international countries are actually performing 

this practice as well as Mexico. It was an 

interesting tie that you said the GOTS standards 

are requesting this information. It's almost a 

disadvantage that the NOP is not doing this 

currently as a consistent standard. I thought 

that was interesting.

Can you just touch one more time on 

the importance of just this piece of information 

and how it can become very beneficial in 

investigating fraudulent activities?

MS. WARTES: Well, it's -- most of 

those private standards are looking at a mass 

balance system where they take the entire yield 

of a whole crop, like an entire cotton crop of 
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the United States or the entire crop -- cotton 

crop of a province in India and follow it through 

the first time it goes to the gin from the field 

and then is processed, and then how many bales 

subsequently are produced from the ginning 

activity, and then where it's warehoused, and 

then who buys it, and every step throughout the 

entire way until it ends up as a tampon or a shirt 

or a mattress. 

And in that they're showing, okay, 

this amount of cotton is available to the market 

and this many buyers were involved. Oh, but 

there's -- no, there's more buyers than there was 

cotton or there's more -- you know, and that same 

way -- because cotton's really easy to 

fraudulently present in the industry because it 

looks exactly the same as the conventional 

counterparts. So there has to be a lot of 

transparent mechanisms and tools built into the 

whole system to make sure that the cotton that 

you're getting in your shirt actually is organic 
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from a field in Texas and not from a conventional 

source. 

So they've been looking at this for a 

long time because of Pima and Upland cotton 

varieties and the price premium you get for long 

staple cotton versus the Upland short staple. 

And so the cotton world is aware of these 

fraudulent activities from the very beginning. 

So organic's just another level to it, you know? 

Yeah. So it's going to become imperative to 

participate in these tools. Yeah.

MEMBER BRUCH: Absolutely. Well 

thank you for providing that extra information.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian has a 

question for you, Angela.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, thanks, 

Angela. Just a quick one. I probably should 

know these, but I don't know what GOTS and OID 

stand for. I've never been an inspector. And 

it would be nice if all the speakers would say 

what an acronym is before they use it if it's 
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something that's maybe not totally obvious. 

Thanks a lot.

MS. WARTES: Absolutely. No, 

absolutely. For sure. It's -- the Global 

Organic Textile Standard is GOTS. And it's 

the -- it basically takes the organic cotton from 

the gin level and puts it into an apparel or home 

furnishing or hygiene system and keeps its 

organic status throughout. It's not part of the 

NOP and it's outside the scope of the NOP 

obviously, but at the gin level is where GOTS 

begins.

And then the OID is of course the 

Organic Integrity Database.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

that, Brian. And I'll try to do better at whipping 

these acronyms.

MS. WARTES: Good reminder.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Thank you 

so much for your comments, Angela, we really 

appreciate them.
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MS. WARTES: All right. We're going 

to go have dinner. Thanks. Bye.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

Next up we have Garth Kahl followed by 

Amy van Saun and then Julia Barton.

Garth, please go ahead.

MR. KAHL: Hi, Garth Kahl, Common 

Treasury Farm, Independent Organic Services and 

Organic Integrity Cooperative Guild.

Dear NOSB members and NOP staff, my 

name is Garth Kahl and I wear many organic hats 

including among others a certified grower in 

Stockton for over 30 years, inspector and 

consultant. Thank you for the opportunity to 

comment and as always thanks for your service.

In that vein I want to strongly voice 

my support for the proposal regarding NOSB 

technical support. This has been a problem for 

years and it's time you got some help. You 

already have my written comments, particularly on 

the discussion documents addressing minimum 
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reporting requirements and the acreage reporting 

proposal. As a long-term member and trainer with 

IOIA my views align with theirs on these 

subjects.

With respect to certificates, acreage 

needs to be on certificates just as many NOP 

certifiers and other international standards 

already require. This information is already 

publicly available through a variety of online 

and public records requests. Just do it. It's 

an easy blow to strike for organic integrity.

With respect to the minimum reporting 

requirements, along with IOIA I am very hesitant 

about requiring standard trace back and mass 

balance reporting forms, but am all in favor of 

the Accredited Certifiers Association and IOIA, 

the Independent Organic Inspectors Association, 

working together with the program to create best 

practices in fostering continuing education for 

inspectors on these. Don't create a square form 

that's expected to fit into the variously 
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designed round holes that inspectors encounter on

the myriad operations covered by NOP 

certification.

Most importantly I want to impress 

upon each and every one of you the benefits that 

organic producers and consumers have seen from a 

stable regulatory environment and encourage each 

and every one of you to keep an eye on that with 

maintaining -- particularly maintaining all 

sunset materials and especially maintaining the 

current practice, which certifiers are 

implementing and overseeing perfectly well, of 

treating ion exchange membranes just like the 

food contact services they are while universally 

requiring recharge materials to be on the 

National List. The current approach isn't broken 

and it doesn't need fixing.

I recently had the opportunity to 

spend nearly two weeks in the UK. As always, I 

tried to purchase all the food I needed as 

organic. Imagine my surprise that, at least in 
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the larger supermarket chains, there were very 

few organic offerings beyond teas, milk, and 

occasionally contrast -- or occasionally yogurt. 

Contrast this with the U.S. where I can go to any 

Safeway, Kroger, or even Walmart in the most 

rural town and find at least a smattering of 

organic fresh vegetables, cheese, cereal, bread, 

not to mentioned processed frozen food. Indeed 

the selection in the UK chain stores was less 

than when I visited last year.

My point here is don't muck up the 

current organic market which is the envy of the 

world. Resist the urge to meddle. The act of 

removing substances from the National List should 

be viewed at best as a necessary evil rather than 

some warped badge of organic purity. Thank you 

all for your time and service.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you so 

much for your comments, Garth, both written and 

oral.

Any questions from the Board? Let's 
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start off with Amy. Please go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure. Thank you, 

Nate.

Garth, thank you for your 

participation today and your contributions to 

written comments with Angela. Your comments on 

acres are very clear, appreciate that, your 

written comments. I'm going to go straight to 

your second topic that you discussed with our 

discussion document on standardization of forms, 

minimum reporting requirements.

My question as a farmer to an 

inspector such as yourself would be -- there's 

real clarity I feel like and consistency on the 

front end side of things with what documents we 

need to produce for seeds such as seed tags, seed 

search forms, affidavits from our suppliers, but 

on the back end not necessarily thinking of a 

standardized form. But would you be in agreement 

that minimum reporting standards for bills of 

lading and some of the transactional type 
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materials would be equally as important so we can 

tie in acres with some of the transactions that 

take place? So not necessarily a standardized 

form, but maybe more we need these nuts and bolts 

definitely from every operation?

MR. KAHL: Yes, I mean, I think 

that -- let's step back on that. I think there's 

always --

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay.

MR. KAHL: -- a need to make it 

clearer for producers. What is the inspector 

going to look for? What does an audit trail look 

like? What does a mass balance or what does a 

trace back exercise look like? What does a mass 

balance exercise look like? My -- and the IOIA's 

opposition to a standard reporting form is that 

an operation that sells -- that produces 500 

square feet of vegetables and sells it at 

farmer's markets or as microgreens is going to 

have vastly different trace back and mass balance 

parameters and items to look at than a grain 
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operation or a hay operation. They're just --

they're different.

In terms of the universal bill of 

lading, we discussed this with the IOIA. I'm not 

sure -- having seen thousands of different forms 

of bills of lading out there I'm not sure that 

you as a farmer want to go to all the different 

entities that handle your product or handle your 

incoming product if you're buying it in and say 

your bill of lading must meet these criteria. 

I'm not sure if even the USDA has the authority 

to mandate bills of lading, that they have to 

have certain things. 

I think that there's definitely --

I've seen instances where hay producers or hay 

buyers; dairies for example, have issues where 

the bills of lading that they receive -- the 

inspector isn't happy with that or there's 

something lacking. I think there's room for 

better training. 

I think -- and a way to make it easier 
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for the producer while still maintaining that 

integrity and still maintaining the ability to 

verify mass balance; i.e., volume moving through 

the system and traceability, is to train 

inspectors to say here's the various situations 

or examples of the kind of situations you might 

encounter. 

So hay -- a dairy, they're going to be 

buying hay. These are the kinds of documents. 

They may not be -- the information may not all be 

represented on the bill of lading, but it might 

be represented on the combination of the bill of 

lading and the weight ticket, or the bill of 

lading, the weight ticket, and the invoice. 

And so the trick is to better educate 

inspectors so they don't write you a noncompliance because your bill of lading doesn't 

have all the required information and yet at the 

same time are able to look at all the documents 

on the table and say oh, yes, I can do a trace 

back with this or yes, I can do a mass balance 
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with this. 

I mean, this is the thing: we need 

flexibility because your operation is different 

than my operations, is different than Brian's 

operation, and it's -- so we need to have the 

flexibility for inspectors to be able to perform 

thorough mass balance and trace back exercises on 

each operation and not be kind of confined by a 

particular form.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, 

Garth. I appreciate your answer there.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Hey, Garth. I'm going 

to switch gears to ion exchange. I really 

appreciated your written comments. I thought 

they were clear and easy to follow.

My question that I've been asking on 

this topic is obviously we have a definition of 

processing aid and ingredient in the regulations 

and we keep getting maybe hung up on some of 
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these -- on resins and whether or not they meet 

those definitions or not. And then there's also 

the FDA definition of food contact substance. 

And so do you -- would you think it 

helpful as we move towards proposal stage for the 

Board to propose our own definition of food 

contact substance? Would that help us or not?

MR. KAHL: I think it would. I think 

it's kind of unfortunate, you know, the FDA kind 

of did a flip-flop. I mean they had a previous 

statement or policy that yes, these were food 

contact substances. Then we went back and asked 

them again and they're like well, maybe; maybe 

not. Yes, I think it would be very helpful. I 

think that we kind of need to define it for 

ourselves. And I think that it is a food contact 

substance. 

As I said in my written comments, if 

we start looking at this and requiring this

listed, then there's a myriad of other substances 

that contact food in a processing environment. 
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And do we really want to be going down that road? 

That's my big concern is the disruption that this 

would cause for industry, for processors, and at 

the end of the day for consumers. I mean, if --

you know, believe me, if my stepmother cannot get 

her agave syrup organically, she's going to be 

very upset.

MEMBER SMITH: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have a question 

for you, Garth. And before I actually ask my 

question just want to disclose for the record 

that I am a member of the Organic Integrity 

Cooperative Guild. Just for the record.

Could you speak to this sort of 

unclear question about leakage of resins and is 

this a concern or is this unfounded?

MR. KAHL: Well, so actually I -- my 

primary source of information for ion exchange 

membranes of course is Gwendolyn Wyard, who 

taught me everything I know about ion exchange 

membranes back in the early 2000s. So but in 
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speaking with her it appears that -- and I'd refer 

you to my written comments on this -- it appears 

that this idea of leakage comes specifically from 

a widely circulated document called Ion Exchange 

for Dummies. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Like the paperbound book for dummies?

MR. KAHL: Yes. No, and it's a great 

document. And actually I referenced it in my 

written comments. It's a great document. And 

it was -- it's -- you know, even it's useful for 

me to review. It's like yes, this is how it 

works.

So some people hear this idea of 

leakage and they think, oh my gosh, these little 

pieces of plastic beads -- and that's what they 

are. They actually kind of look like the beads 

inside a stuffed beanbag chair. If you've ever 

had a stuffed beanbag chair that opened and 

ripped, they look like little polyacrylic beads. 

And so people hear leakage and they're like, oh 
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my gosh, these little resins of plastic are going 

floating into our organic food supply. This is 

really scary.

What they talk about in terms of 

leakage is -- what this document references when 

they talk about leakage is -- so the ion exchange 

membrane is transferring ions. Let's say it's 

going -- juice is going through it and the 

undesirable ions maybe the color, things like 

that that are bound to color, are binding on the 

membrane. They're interchanging with the 

recharge materials on the membrane, they're 

interchanging with the fluid. 

Once these -- once this membrane 

starts to get full it doesn't let -- it's kind of 

like the filter in your car, right? So if your 

fuel filter gets too full, maybe some dirt goes 

by it at -- or comes off of it and goes and clogs 

your fuel injector. The same kind of thing 

happens. When the ion exchange membranes get 

super saturated, they then start releasing part 
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of the trapped ions that they had previously 

filtered out.

So the filter just gets clogged and 

then it starts passing filtered -- filtrate, the 

stuff that should have been filtered out. It 

starts passing it. It's not leaking pieces of 

plastic. It's not leaking the chemicals that are 

in the ion exchange membrane. It's leaking the 

material that was filtered out. So there's again 

no breach of organic integrity. But people hear 

this word leaking, it sounds really concerning, 

and so some of the public comments focused on 

this leaking as if this was a threat to organic 

integrity.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Really appreciate 

that clarification. Yes. So it's filtrate. 

It's just the stuff we're trying to get out, we're 

not getting out, but it's not the plastic 

breaking down, not the resins breaking down. 

Thank you for that.

MR. KAHL: That is the -- that is my 
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interpretation looking at organic -- Ion Exchange 

for Dummies. If you look at the diagram there; 

and again, see my written comments, it's pretty 

clear what that -- what they're talking about is 

filtrate going back into the solution.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Given the hours 

that have gone into this project I think we need 

a copy of this book and we all need to sign it 

for posterity.

(Laughter.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So if you can make 

that happen, that would be great, in Sacramento.

MR. KAHL: See my public --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: But thank you --

MR. KAHL: -- comments. It's 

there -- it's actually just -- it's available on 

the internet. You can download it. And I've 

included the link on my public comment.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Awesome. We 

appreciate that. And thank you for your comments 

today.
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MR. KAHL: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Amy van Saun followed by Julia Barton and then 

Lisa DeVetter.

Amy, please go ahead.

MS. VAN SAUN: Thank you. I'm Amy 

van Saun. I'm a senior attorney with the Center 

for Food Safety. I want to thank the NOSB 

members for your service and -- to organic.

CFS, as you may know, has over 1 

million members nationwide. We've been 

champions of the organic label and a major pillar 

of our work for all of our over 20 years has been 

to ensure the integrity of the USDA organic 

label. 

I personally got to spend four years 

litigating to reinstate the organic livestock and 

poultry practices rules after the last 

administration withdrew it. And now we have the 

proposed new rule, Organic Livestock and Poultry 

Standards, OLPS. That would be -- that's going 
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to be the focus of my comments today.

Center for Food Safety is happy to see 

that USDA once again agrees that it has full 

authority under the Organic Foods Production Act 

to set standards for the humane living conditions 

of organically-raised animals. Further, there

is a clear failure of the organic market here to 

ensure that organic animal products consistently 

meet consumer expectations of humane treatment of 

those animals. Organic should of course be the 

gold standard and the fact that farmers and 

eaters alike must rely on third-party animal 

welfare certifications needs to be corrected. 

So we think that OLPS is a major step 

forward, but as we commented in 2016, it should 

be clarified to ensure that there is meaningful 

access for all poultry and humane living 

conditions for all organic livestock.

We have some specific requests there 

to -- that will be of course detailed in more 

detailed comments that we'll be submitting to 
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USDA, but here are some major things I wanted to 

highlight.

We think USDA should require better 

than 50 percent concrete for outdoor spaces for 

all birds because outdoor space is so important. 

Having soil with real vegetation on it is 

important for chickens and other poultry to 

engage in their natural behaviors. We also think 

there should be more room per bird. We saw that 

the USDA chose the low end of NOSB's recommended 

range. We believe that should be at the high end 

and that there should be set a minimum number of 

doors to ensure that birds can and will access 

their outdoor spaces.

We also believe that USDA should 

remove the definition of soil as this was not 

vetted or recommended by the NOSB, nor is it 

required for the rules themselves, and should 

also define maximal vegetation.

We believe USDA should add breed 

restrictions to ensure that organic birds will 
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thrive and limit daily growth rate. And as we 

detailed in our 2016 comments, pigs are 

notoriously absent from this rule and we believe 

there should be spacing and outdoor requirements 

for them as well.

I see that my time is running up, so 

I'll be brief, but the rest of this is in our 

detailed comments. We think that especially the 

rule has been too long and so long in the works 

that farmers need to be benefitting from that 

level playing field immediately, so the 

implementation time must be shorter than 5 or 15 

years, and CFS promotes 3 years for broilers and 

egg-laying hens' outdoor space. Thank you so 

much for your consideration.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for the 

detailed comments. We really appreciate them as 

well as your work on this issue. It's exciting 

times. We're almost there. So we can do this 

right. And getting across the finish line is in 

no small part to the folks who have fought so 
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hard for the last four years to make this happen. 

Any questions for Amy? 

Amy, would you remind us when the 

public comment period closes?

MS. VAN SAUN: I believe that's 

November 10th when the comment period closes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think you're 

right. 

(Simultaneous speaking.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So everything --

Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

MS. VAN SAUN: I said it was either 

the 10th or 11th. It's not in front of me. I 

think November 10th. We got an extension which 

is helpful to really make sure our comments go 

into the detail that will hopefully be helpful to 

USDA to make those clarifications.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. So 

everybody on the call, I want to make sure 

everybody knows that you can still comment on 

OLPS and make your voice heard.
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Thank you for that reminder and for 

your comments today, Amy. Appreciate it.

Next up we have Julia Barton followed 

by Lisa DeVetter and then Bryce Irlbeck.

Julia, please go ahead.

MS. BARTON: Hi, Nate. Can you hear 

me? Yes, we're good?

MS. ARSENAULT: Yes, we can hear you.

MS. BARTON: Thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone. My name is 

Julia Barton with the Ohio Ecological Food and 

Farm Association. Thank you for your 

facilitation of this online forum and for your 

service.

Today I'd like to highlight input on 

three topics. First, field and greenhouse 

container production. OEFFA is part of a working 

group of certification, education, and policy 

organizations who agree that soil is the 

foundation of organic agriculture and who strive 

to achieve consistency in our organizational 
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policies and certification decisions. We urge 

the NOSB to activate the latent agenda item field 

and greenhouse container production and to lead 

our community in a discussion of this essential 

topic.

Further, because aeroponic, 

hydroponic, and crops grown to maturity in 

containers do not comply with OFPA and because 

there is significant inconsistency in the way 

these forms of production are being handled by --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Maybe turn off 

your video, Julia.

MS. BARTON: Okay. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It's breaking up 

a bit.

MS. BARTON: Rural internet, folks. 

Is that better?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Yes, 

absolutely.

MS. BARTON: I'll keep rolling.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It is. Please go 
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ahead.

MS. BARTON: In short, on that topic 

we urge the Board please to call for a moratorium 

on the certification of new operations in this 

category until we can utilize our existing NOSB 

and rulemaking process to move forward with 

greater consistency. 

Secondly, on the acreage reporting 

proposal, we agree with the subcommittee's 

recommendation that NOP require certifiers to 

list a certified operation's acres by crop type 

on organic certificates, and we would be happy to 

add total organic acres. As a community we need 

to come to consensus regarding the granularity of 

details and reporting double cropping and smallscale production. We think that's doable and we 

look forward to it.

Regarding the discussion document 

Oversight Improvements to Deter Fraud: Minimum 

Reporting Requirements, we support the concept of 

this discussion document and we might differ a 
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bit when it comes to the details. Specifically, 

we support a universal bill of lading. This is 

a specific document used in a specific way at a 

very busy time of year. A standardized form in 

this case we think has a good chance of reducing 

fraud. We support it.

We do not on the other hand support 

standardization of everything, and specifically 

we have concerns about a universal OSB. 

Culturally, organic is known for transparency and 

willingness to share information. OEFFA farmers 

regularly help bring new transitioning farmers 

into the fold and mentor one another regarding 

production practices and record keeping. 

Similarly, many certifiers and 

organic educational organizations offer record 

keeping templates, both in print and digital 

forms, for not just their operators, but for all 

organic operators to use should they choose. 

We're supportive of this type of crowd-sourced 

cooperative effort and we know it benefits 
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organic producers, handlers, inspectors, and 

certifiers.

That said, the need to use any given 

form exclusively reaches beyond the requirements 

of record keeping in OFPA and could cause both 

confusion and inefficiencies for operations or 

types of audit which don't fit the form in 

question. Let's not fall into the 

standardization-is-always-more-efficient trap 

and rather learn from our experience in 

agriculture that diversity is not only navigable 

but also positive and beneficial. Thank you for 

your time.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comments. Any questions for Julia? 

I have a question for you -- oh, 

please. Sorry, Amy, for that delay. Go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Oh, no problem, Nate. 

I had trouble finding my raise hand button.

Okay. Hi, Julia. Thank you for your 

time today and for your written comments as well. 
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Two questions, first one is going to be a real 

quick one. How long has OEFFA been displaying 

acres on certificates?

MS. BARTON: Since I can remember. 

I've been at OEFFA 10 years, so at least 10 years. 

Let's put it that way.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Okay. 

Appreciate that. That was longer than I was 

anticipating. Okay. Wonderful. Thank you for 

that.

And then secondarily, it's a 

combination question from maybe your comments 

from last semester, written as well as this 

current comment period. I remember last semester 

you had mentioned that some of the common noncompliances that farmers have are with record 

keeping. And so potentially one of the benefits 

from having a little bit more standardization or 

the minimum reporting requirements is a benefit 

to farmers so they know what -- how they can form 

their record keeping system to the expectations 
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of compliance as well.

So if we're getting maybe -- I know

you're somewhat in favor of the current proposal, 

but a little concerned with standardization. Do 

you have any additional ideas that can help 

farmers, outside of just training, reduce the 

number of non-compliances for record keeping if 

we're not going down the standardization or 

identifying some of these core components?

MS. BARTON: Sure. And are you 

thinking that -- I mean, I wasn't entirely sure 

from the framing of the document. Are you 

thinking that a non-compliance for record keeping 

is inherently a bad thing because it's like too 

picky or are you thinking maybe it's being overly 

regulated in the record -- like what are you 

thinking about that just so I can answer 

appropriately?

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. And that's a 

good question because it is interpretation. I 

guess from a farmer point of view -- and I've 
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helped other fellow farmers transition to 

organic, and one of the barriers is record 

keeping and just understanding the requirements. 

So I guess my interpretation of the written 

comment that you provided last semester was more 

or less that there was just a non-understanding 

from the farmer point of view of the expectations 

of the records. And maybe I interpreted that 

wrong.

MS. BARTON: No, I think I understand 

what you're saying. And jump in here, Nate, if 

you want to --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, if I could 

couch this just a little bit.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So in thinking 

about the non-compliances that are not fraudbased -- so we're not worried that something nonorganic was sold, but rather that the harvest 

date wasn't written down or there's a missing 

component that results in it. So to beef up our 
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fraud efforts, anti-fraud efforts, versus that 50 

percent of non-compliances that may not have 

necessarily a real basis in fraud but are just 

inconsistent record keeping that results in a 

non-compliance, time and resources on both 

farmers and certifiers being spent.

MS. BARTON: Okay. Sure. So like 

how do we zero in on the really important record 

keeping non-compliances and let the ones that 

don't matter so much go by the wayside?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Or just if they 

were standardized possibly make them less likely 

to be poorly kept.

MEMBER BRUCH: Mm-hmm.

MS. BARTON: So I think we have a lot 

of really good options out there already. Like 

I heard the discussion on Tuesday about the 

modular OSP. There's a whole bunch of certifiers 

who have a whole bunch of record keeping 

templates that are out there. I've worked in the 

arena of transition support over the last eight 
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years and we share those various templates and 

ideas with producers when they're going through 

transition. And they can choose to 

engage with educational support services as much 

or as little as they want to, but we know for 

sure that we need more educational support while 

people are transitioning. And I don't just mean 

in the 36 months of transition. I mean, you 

know, probably a good five years before 

certification and a good five years after 

certification is like the real transition period. 

And people need help. I don't think 

they need to be overly regulated during that 

period of time. I think they need help during 

that time to really kind of get their feet under 

them and get the support that they need to be 

successful organic operators. And record 

keeping, as much as we don't all love it as 

organic operators, I'm one, too -- like we don't 

love it, but it has to be done, right? Like it's 

part of the accountability measures that are 
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built into the program. And we sign up for the 

program, so we sign up for the record keeping. 

But standardization I think is a 

slippery slope because we have so many different 

types of learners, we have so many different 

types of brains. And in my experience we think 

standardization is going to be helpful, but it 

often doesn't achieve the outcomes that we're 

seeking. So that's a concern that I have and 

that OEFFA has in terms of that suggestion.

MEMBER SMITH: Nate, I don't mean to 

skip the line, but can I just --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: -- like say something 

directly --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead. 

MEMBER SMITH: -- about that? I 

think -- I don't want to put words in your mouth, 

Julia, but I think what you're saying, or what 

I hear you saying and interpreting is like the 

template is only as good as the person using the 
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template. So you could have the best frickin' 

template in the whole world and if they don't use 

it or they forget to put one piece of information 

on there, we're still going to end up with the 

non-compliances because it's people. So that's 

what I heard.

MS. BARTON: Yes, that's not exactly 

what -- where I was coming from, but you have a 

point there, too. I mean, we're working with 

people and people are people, like Kyla said. 

And we see soup to nuts on these OSPs. We see 

soup to nuts in terms of record keeping. But 

what we really try to do at OEFFA is meet the 

producer where they are. If they've given us 

something that we can turn into something that's

auditable, we take it, right? 

Like think about DMI. Think about 

when somebody's worked with a nutritionist and 

you get pieces and parts on different --

different pieces of documents, but you know DMI 

well enough you can put it together and you can 
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see that this person is meeting the standard. 

Like it does require a high level of 

understanding on the part of the reviewer and the 

inspector. Like we're talking about high levels 

of professionalism here. 

But I think we can achieve that. I 

don't think we necessarily need to -- I don't 

think we need to try to square-peg-round-hole 

this. I think we can kind of use the -- use what 

we know. Like we know diversity. We know 

outside-the-box thinking. Like that's what 

we're made of in this movement. So use our 

strengths, play to our strengths and don't try to 

be standardized whatever.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm going to jump 

to Kim for a question for you.

MS. BARTON: Yes, ma'am?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi Julia. The past 

day and a little bit here so far today I think 

there's been some great conversation as we talk 

about acres on certificates. And OEFFA has been 
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doing this for quite some time. In your 10 years 

that you've been there do you know -- do you keep 

records of how many operations were decertified 

or caught with fraud based off of having this 

information on the certificate?

MS. BARTON: We definitely keep 

records of operations we certify who are, you 

know, certified, revoked, denied, suspended. 

Yes, we do. There aren't that many revocations 

in a year. There aren't that many denials in a 

year. It's generally small numbers. 

What I think -- you know, noncompliances would be something else we also 

track, but might be closer to getting at what 

you're getting at. Like because folks do have 

the opportunity to correct, right? So --

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Right. So it's the 

okay, we've noticed this. You've got time to get 

this in order and corrected?

MS. BARTON: Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. From a --
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percentage-wise how many do you end up actually 

decertifying?

MS. BARTON: It would be a very small 

percent, but I don't have that off the top of my 

head.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes. No, no, no. 

MS. BARTON: We can get you --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes, I'm just 

curious. I appreciate the answer. Thank you.

MS. BARTON: Yes, ma'am.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And, Julia, if I 

understand it right, that's an NOP data point 

that we can get as well. The revocations are 

part of that dashboard reporting.

So we can definitely get that to you, 

Kim. Thank you, Julia.

MS. BARTON: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so 

much.

MS. BARTON: Thank you.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We really 

appreciate your time.

MS. BARTON: Same.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

up we have Lisa DeVetter followed by Bryce 

Irlbeck and then Leslie Touzeau.

Lisa, please go ahead.

MS. DEVETTER: Thank you. 

Michelle, I had -- I sent some slides. 

Were you going to screen share them? Great.

Well, thank you so much. Just let me 

know when you're ready.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're ready.

MS. DEVETTER: Well, good day to you 

all. I'm Lisa DeVetter. I'm an associate 

professor with the Department of Horticulture at 

Washington State University and I'm here to 

present a little bit of information about soilbiodegradable plastic mulches as they're being 

considered for use in organic agriculture.

Next slide, please? So first I just 
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want to provide a definition and give some 

overview about what soil-biodegradable plastic 

mulches are, or BDMs, because I think there are 

some common misconceptions.

So BDMs, they must meet standards for 

biodegradation, and those standards are there to 

ensure the quality and integrity for their 

utilization in agriculture. And the ones that 

researchers utilize is the European Standard 

17033. This requires that the materials achieve 

90 percent or greater in-soil biodegradation 

within two years or less. Now this means it 

excludes oxos and photodegradables which are 

sometimes erroneously sold as biodegradable 

mulches. 

I also want to talk a little bit about 

the composition of BDMs because in 2014 when BDMs 

were added to the list of allowed substances it 

required that BDMs be 100 percent bio-based in 

their constituency. 

So by mass 75 to 95 percent of BDMs 
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are feedstock ingredients and then the remainder 

are additives. And these are required and 

they're added for processing the material and for 

the performance in the field. They can include 

anything from plasticizers, lubricants to UV 

stabilizers.

Now going back to the feedstocks, they 

may be bio-based. They may also be derived from 

fossil fuels, but what we see commercially is 

that they are a blend of the two. There are no 

100-percent bio-based BDMs that are available. 

It is more along the lines of 20 to 50 percent, 

up to 60 percent in Europe. 

And the other thing that I think is a 

common misconception is the relationship between 

bio-based content and in-soil biodegradation. 

There is no correlation between these two, so

just because you have higher bio-based content it 

doesn't mean it's going to biodegrade in soils 

better.

Next slide, please? So I'm a 
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researcher. I wanted to highlight what is known 

about BDMs from my perspective as well as the 

perspective of other researchers that I 

collaborate with. Some of those papers were 

referenced in the written comments that were 

submitted.

So to date what we've learned about 

BDMs is that they maintain crop performance 

relative to traditional non-degradable 

polyethylene mulch. They have no negative impact 

on soil health. And this is through monitoring 

physical, chemical, and biological soil variables 

within a two to four-year period. And they've 

been shown to be economically viable in most 

farming systems and contacts.

Now research is continuing on. We're 

still curious to look at their longer-term health 

effects on soils in some of these legacy sites 

that have had continuous application of BDMs, but 

from my perspective they are an opportunity to 

reduce plastic waste generation in agriculture, 
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including organic agriculture. 

Recycling is another opportunity, but 

that might not be technically or economically 

feasible across all farms and with the technology 

at the time. And there is a precedent for their 

use in Europe such as the Italian Organic Farming 

Association. Thank you for your time.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

your comments. Do we have questions from the 

Board for Lisa? 

Let's see. Brian, please go ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, so, Lisa, 

thanks very much. I think that the learning 

curve on these mulches is involved and long, but 

what I -- a couple of questions. One is -- the 

first one is when we talk about bio-based, I think 

that -- especially when I was in the -- you know,

last year or two learning about this, that seemed 

sort of synonymous with natural, but it's totally 

not, right? In other words, a substance that --

a material that's an input into the processing to 
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create these mulches could be coming from corn, 

but it's synthesized and it could have all kinds 

of different chemical groups added to it. And 

that's one reason of course that it might not 

degrade quickly. Am I interpreting that right?

MS. DeVETTER: A lot of the 

biodegradation depends on the polymer nature and 

then how it gets blended as a final film product. 

So, there's the feedstock itself, and that, 

again, could be biobased. 

Usually, it's a blend and there's its 

inherent biodegradation, and then there's the 

actual film and it's added with the other 

additives, and how that biodegrades, and those 

are other interacting factors in addition to 

what's happening in the field.

But there are some biobased materials 

that are produced from GM organisms, so they're 

not necessarily natural per se, like directly 

extracted from, say, corn or potatoes. I hope 

that answers your question.
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MEMBER CALDWELL: Well, just, I guess 

just to be maybe clear about it, if it's biobased, 

it doesn't mean it's nonsynthetic, right?

MS. DeVETTER: Well, if it's 

biobased, yes, correct, it doesn't necessarily 

mean it's non-synthetic.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Right, in other 

words, a feedstock for an industrial process 

could be from a biological source, a plant source 

of whatever, but the final product essentially 

can be a synthetic material. 

I think that, at least for me, that 

was one of the kind of hangups that I had in 

trying to understand all of this, is that it sort 

of seemed like oh, well, if it's biobased, it's 

sort of inherently natural, but I don't think 

that that's really the case. Am I right on that?

MS. DeVETTER: Yeah, it's hard for me 

to kind of understand what natural is in this 

context too, but pretty much everything, whether 

it be biobased or not, there is some level of 
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processing that has to happen to it essentially.

MEMBER CALDWELL: When you say 

everything, you mean everything involved in these 

mulches, not everything in the world?

MS. DeVETTER: Yes, in these mulches. 

Absolutely.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay, so my second 

question is when I was reading some of the 

research that I was trying to determine the 

biodegradation rates, what I found was that they 

were actually looking for identifiable pieces of 

the mulch that they could recover from the soil. 

But that's really a way, inaccurate way of trying 

to figure out how much is actually remaining 

there because a lot of it could not be visually 

identifiable but could still be there. Is that 

right?

MS. DeVETTER: Yes, so right now where 

the science is is that we're looking at visible 

fragments in the soil, both on the surface or 

within the soil. In some of the new research 
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that's going to be underway in the next four 

years, we're going to be looking at it at a much 

more, you know, finer resolution. 

Because we're only able to see what we 

can see, and so we're not necessarily yet able to 

see, or the research to date hasn't been able to 

show what happens with those smaller fragments 

that are not able to be visualized.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Right, and so there 

might be better methods of using different carbon 

isotopes or something like that to actually track 

what has been evolved from, you know, a 

biodegradable mulch as it's, you know, degrading. 

That would seem to be a more accurate assessment. 

Is that right?

MS. DeVETTER: Yes, and that's where 

-- you know, I'm privy to this knowledge, so 

within the next four years, that's what is going 

to be looked at, not necessarily the carbon 

isotopes, but looking more at the carbon within 

the mulch material and tracking that, and trying 
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to better understand what is the fate and 

residence time of the materials in these mediums.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Good, great, but 

we're not there yet?

MS. DeVETTER: Correct.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay, thank you 

very much. I really appreciate that.

MS. DeVETTER: Thanks, Brian.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

Dilip. Please, go ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Lisa, for 

your comments, and it's a very interesting 

discussion and partly you have answered with 

Brian. I just wanted to very quickly ask you if 

you have any information about how long these 

biodegradable materials, so far, companies have 

been using and how long they stay in the soil or 

how much time they may take to degrade? Thank 

you.

MS. DeVETTER: Sure, thank you for 

your question. So, right now what we're seeing 
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is really dependent on the soil and the 

environment, a lot of it temperature driven.

 Right now in northwestern Washington, 

four to six years is about what it would take to 

biodegrade in the soil based on our current 

methods of assessment. In more warmer climate 

areas, it could be two to three years.

MEMBER NANDWANI: So, that applies to 

bio as well as non-bio products? Because mostly 

it is bio, but --

MS. DeVETTER: Okay, oh, biobased 

versus non-biobased?

MEMBER NANDWANI: Correct.

MS. DeVETTER: We haven't been able 

to study that because we're looking at commercial 

products, and all of the commercial products that 

meet the standards are a blend of bio and nonbiobased feedstock ingredients.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan, please go 

ahead.
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MEMBER PETREY: Hi, thank you for the 

comments, both written and oral. So, when you 

stated in one of the slides, it was talking about 

soil health, that you haven't seen any impact, 

can you describe that? What are you -- Brian was 

going into, you know, the visual identification 

of things. 

I was just, you know, expecting that 

there are more parameters that are measured when 

you're, you know, claiming soil health is 

whatever that is. 

It's a hard thing to identify. I 

mean, that's something we all chase, but can you 

kind of explain the soil health studies and that, 

you're not -- you haven't been seeing any decline 

necessarily?

MS. DeVETTER: Sure, absolutely. So, 

this work has been primarily led by Dr. Markus 

Flury, who is a soil scientist here at Washington 

State University, and so some of the biological 

components have been earthworm counts, carbon, 
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excuse me, respiration in the soil, then they 

looked at physical components such as aggregate 

stability. 

I'd have to go back because there's a 

number of various variables that they're 

monitoring as part of their soil quality index, 

and then chemical components like carbon, 

nitrogen, et cetera.

And what they've seen is no change due 

to biodegradable mulch. What they do see though 

are changes based on season, so season has a 

larger effect than just actually the addition of 

the biodegradable mulch after. They've looked 

at it up to four years with continuous or annual 

BDM application.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay, and then so a 

lot of the maybe concern or the focus has not 

necessarily shifted from the soil health, but 

it's gone into human health and, you know, the 

plastics, and what may be left behind, and 

whether this is getting in food and stuff like 
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that. Has any of that been looked at or even in 

comparison with the polyethylene mulch that we 

have? Has that been of interest in research?

MS. DeVETTER: Yeah, if there's a lot 

of interest right now, I haven't seen 

publications come out, both on the PE or the nondegradable and the BDMs in terms of, you know, 

what happens if it's ingested and what happens if 

it moves through the food chain.

You know, we do know, at least for 

plastic particles in laboratory-based studies, 

that plants are able to take it up, so there is 

some risk for bioaccumulation and ingestion, but 

we don't know what for the biodegradable 

materials.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay, and so when 

you're doing, when the research is conducted, 

you're using polyethylene mulch as maybe a 

control or you have both bare ground, 

polyethylene mulch, and then the biodegradables 

as well, testing all of those side by side or --
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MS. DeVETTER: Yeah, it depends on the 

experiment, but in general, we will have 

polyethylene as a control --

MEMBER PETREY: Okay.

MS. DeVETTER: -- with the 

biodegradables.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay.

MS. DeVETTER: Usually, we're not 

having bare ground as a control.

MEMBER PETREY: And you don't have any 

other, because it's come up as alternatives, you 

know, as far as more of your biode -- I would 

assume maybe like a biocover, like a cover crop? 

That hasn't been looked at in the trial as well, 

correct?

MS. DeVETTER: Not any of -- well, it 

depends. So, we are starting to look at biobased 

hydromulches. This is work in collaboration with 

Dr. Gretta Graham. 

Again, this would be made out of onehundred percent recycled materials like recycled
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paper, plus an organic approved tackifier, so 

that's just started. We've got one year of data, 

but no living materials.

MEMBER PETREY: No living materials 

that have been terminated or sewn and then 

planted into to try and make that a mulch?

MS. DeVETTER: Yeah, none yet. For a 

lot of the systems we're working in, we have 

challenges, like if we have living materials, 

slugs are our big challenge up here in 

northwestern Washington, and then also there's 

concern about competition with the crop --

MEMBER PETREY: Oh, yeah, sure. And 

then my last question, thank you for your time, 

is, okay, so you all are conducting research and 

who is really driving that research there? Is 

it organic industries or conventional industries? 

Who is really wanting that to continue or at least 

funding, not necessarily funding, I don't need 

that information, but who really is driving that 

research? 
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Because there is, you know, the idea 

of if we delist this biodegradable biobased mulch 

film from, you know, the listing that it 

currently is, is that going to stifle or stall, 

you know, research ongoing of this right now?

MS. DeVETTER: Yeah, so the research 

primarily has been driven by both, you know, 

conventional and organic stakeholders, and the 

funding has come from, for plastic BDMs, has been 

coming from, you know, specialty crop agriculture 

programs, and then the organic alternatives have 

been coming through USDA OREI.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay, thank you, 

appreciate it.

MS. DeVETTER: Yeah, thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Thank you, Nate. 

Well, Lisa, it's a pleasure to see you and thank 

you for taking the time to elaborate and give us 

some information on the research that you guys 
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have been doing. 

For the record, I want to say that I 

have participated as a grower in some of this 

research that is happening, and it's very helpful 

for growers in our central coast to really 

understand how things are working, and we are not 

there yet. 

I think there is a lot more research 

that has to be done before we can fully make a 

decision that the amounts, whether it's 

biodegradable plastic or conventional mulch is 

doing harm to our soil health.

But my question to you, based on the 

research that you guys have done for the last six 

years, is do you think that the plastic 

conventional mulch that has been left behind in 

the soil, it's creating a more harmful issue for 

the soil than what biodegradable mulch would do?

And then the second question is do you 

think the U.S., it's the forces behind, whether 

economical or whatever it is, are prohibiting us 
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growers to do things that other countries like 

Italy and some European countries already 

implemented and using some of these biodegradable 

mulches? But in my personal opinion, I think it 

would just be the best thing to do for our soil 

health, but, yeah.

MS. DeVETTER: Well, thanks, Javier, 

for your participation on the board, as well as 

some of the trials as we explore these materials.

So, the first question, you know, do 

I think, yes, well, polyethylene, there are risks 

to utilizing polyethylene in agriculture. My 

colleague, Dr. Seeta Sistla at Cal Poly, she's 

observed fields where they have over 200,000 

pieces of plastic remaining on top of the surface 

of the field, just on the surface, and so, you 

know, there's very likely more within the soil as 

well and that is known to be released into 

waterways and then there's concerns about soil 

health there.

Risk is really hard for me to comment 
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on confidently. Because I'm a researcher, I like 

to make statements based on data, but, you know, 

to me, BDMs, there's a really good opportunity 

that it would be less harmful than our current 

practices of polyethylene because even when it's 

removed from the field, there's still fragments 

that remain even after hand cleaning.

With the biodegradable products, 

we're using feedstocks that do biodegrade. Based 

on laboratory tests, they're showing good 

indicators in field tests that they're 

biodegrading and not causing harm to the crop as 

well.

But I still, you know, this is very 

self-serving. I still think there's a need for 

more research to better understand any other 

longer-term effects on the soil so we know.

I do want to comment though that some 

of the standards, they do look at ecotoxicity 

effects. So, I think, you know, the feedstock 

ingredients themselves, they do have a very high 
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probability of being safe in a soil environment 

to the biological community.

And then your second question, it's 

hard for me to comment on that as well, but, you 

know, given that BDMs are used in other European 

countries like Italy and France, you know, it 

does seem like there is potential inhibition to 

limit organic growers' ability to cut back on 

their polyethylene mulch use by using an 

alternative.

But again, I'm a researcher and I look 

at it as is -- there is still some science left 

to be explored as well. So, I just want to 

present the science and what we know. I think 

it's worth considering in organic agriculture 

because I do, again, think that they do represent 

a good opportunity.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Thank you very much.

MS. DeVETTER: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you so much 

for your comments. Sorry to pile on with all of
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the questions, but we're really curious and we 

appreciate your expertise, so thank you.

MS. DeVETTER: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

Bryce Irlbeck, followed by Leslie Touzeau and 

then Tim Cada. Bryce, please go ahead. Oh, we 

can't hear you, Bryce, or at least I can't hear 

you. Can anyone else hear him?

MS. ARSENAULT: I cannot. You don't 

look muted, Bryce, but one of your mics is not 

working.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If you want to 

call in, Bryce, we could jump to the next person.

MS. ARSENAULT: So, Bryce, if you have 

access to the chat, okay, the numbers are at the 

top of the chat.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, let's 

go onto Leslie Touzeau and then we'll come back 

to you, Bryce. Leslie, if you're there?

MS. TOUZEAU: I am. Can you hear me 

okay?
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please 

go ahead.

MS. TOUZEAU: All right, good 

afternoon or good morning to the Board members. 

My name is Leslie Touzeau and I am the material 

review manager for Quality Certification 

Services. Thank you for this opportunity to 

provide comments and thank you for the tireless 

work you do for the organic community.

QCS certifies approximately 1,000 

organic operations and today I'd like to focus on 

a few topics that are of particular interest to 

our clients in our organization.

First, on carbon dioxide, QCS has not 

received any feedback or requests from our 

growers about their need for carbon dioxide as a 

pH adjuster. However, since synthetic carbon 

dioxide is approved at 205.605 as an organic 

process made, we would not oppose its addition to 

205.601(a).

We appreciate the crop subcommittee 
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recognizing the need to properly evaluate carbon 

dioxide as a potential addition to 206.601(j) as 

a plant unit.

As we have indicated in past comments,

we would support the addition of carbon dioxide 

at 205.601(j) and we urge the crop subcommittee 

to continue to evaluate carbon dioxide for this 

use as petitioned. We look forward to submitting 

comments when a proposal is developed.

Next, QCS agrees with the handling 

subcommittee's proposal that ion exchange 

recharge materials must be included on the 

National List as approved processing aids. This 

is consistent with QCS's current policy.

As for resins using the ion exchange 

process, our current policy allows resins that 

are FDA approved through contact substances, and 

we do not require the resin to be on the National 

List.

However, we understand the importance 

of consistency and we recognize the need for 
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clear definitions and definitive understanding of 

resin degradation. We hope the Board can utilize 

the comments from stakeholders to provide an 

informed recommendation to the NOP about how we 

should review these substances to maintain 

consistency between certifiers moving forward.

Finally, QCS supports the continued 

listing of biodegradable biobased mulch film at 

205.601. We have heard from numerous QCS clients 

that they want an alternative to polyethylene 

plastic mulches and QCS has submitted comments in 

support of revising the BDMF annotation to the 

seemingly attainable goal of 80 percent biobased 

content.

We understand that the listing as 

written allows for a product that has not come to 

market, but given the challenges that organic 

growers face finding effective weed control and 

the prevalent use of polyethylene single-use 

plastic mulches, we believe that this unique case 

warrants continued discussion, all while keeping 
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the door open for future product development and 

acknowledging the many hours of work and research 

that have already gone into evaluating 

biodegradable biobased mulch films that led to 

the 2021 recommendation.

The renewal of this listing would 

allow the necessary time for the 2021 annotation 

recommendation to proceed through the steps of 

rulemaking, and progress on the manufacturing of 

80 percent biobased biodegradable mulch could be 

reevaluated at the next five-year sunset review.

We are concerned that if BDMF is 

removed from the National List at this time, this 

will hinder innovation by manufacturers as they 

will be less likely to put money towards R&D for 

products that have no market. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. 

Questions for Leslie from the Board? Kyla, 

please go ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Thanks, Leslie. I'll 

ask the question that I'm asking. Do you think 
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it would be helpful for the Board to propose a 

definition of food contact substance? Would that 

aid in us making determinations on resins outside 

of the definitions of processing aids?

MS. TOUZEAU: Yeah, I do. I think 

that, you know, like I said in the comments, for 

us as a certifier, the most important thing is 

consistency across certifiers in terms of how 

we're reviewing these materials, and so it seems 

like the FDA hasn't given us that kind of clarity 

that we were seeking.

And so, if that is something that the 

NOSB is interested in taking up, coming up with 

the definition that would aid in the review of 

these materials, then, yes, I think we would be 

in support of that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Leslie? I have sort of a general 

question, Leslie. On resins, they -- it's my 

understanding that they are reviewed as food 

contact surfaces by certifiers now, so they do 
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get reviewed and they do get listed on OSPs. Is 

that correct?

MS. TOUZEAU: Yes, on OSPs, but 

they're not reviewed as a National List material.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Correct, yes, all 

right, thank you so much, appreciate your 

comments today.

MS. TOUZEAU: Thank you all.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, take 

care. Next up, let's jump back to Bryce. Bryce, 

are you there?

MR. IRLBECK: Nate, can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can, loud 

and clear. Please, go ahead.

MR. IRLBECK: Perfect. So, good 

afternoon, everybody. My name is Bryce Irlbeck 

and I work in a couple different processes of the 

organic industry, number one, as a producer of 

corn, soybeans, alfalfa, and small grains in the 

Midwest, number two, as a consultant, so we do 

tens of thousands of acres of organics, 20 to 50 
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certifications a year across the country, and 

then most recently, we got into the food 

processing, organic food processing side. 

So, I have a wide range of what we do 

on the organic side and I wanted to speak about 

two aspects today that could provide improvements 

in the system in both integrity and efficiency in 

the organic certification process.

And so, those two topics are 

strengthening the integrity of the United States 

in a broad organic certification. One of the 

things that came up this year that was kind of 

frustrating as we go to sell our grain, we have 

buyers that didn't have ships full of organic 

grain coming off the coast, and now they do and 

don't want to buy our grain. 

And so, I'm not saying it was not 

organic, but it is a little disturbing that they 

didn't have them two months ago knowing they were 

going to come in and now they have ships full of 

organic grain.
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And through putting this, the acres on 

the certification, the second part is looking at 

standardizing the audit process for a couple of 

reasons that I will outline below.

So, I want to circle back to that 

first point and look at strengthening the 

integrity of organic products through adding 

acres to the certificate.

Going through this with the multiple 

certifications I do a year, we already provide 

this data. It's a simple process that's already 

captured by all of the certifiers I work with. 

The growers already put it in their 

system plan, and so it's not going to provide any 

extra work for the growers that they're not 

already doing, and very nominal work for the 

certifiers to provide this.

And to do this, I think it allows two 

important points to look at. When an end user 

is purchasing grain, they have all of the 

information to make a good purchase and hopefully 
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understand that this guy, this individual that is 

growing crops has this amount of crops available 

or they don't.

And then I think the most important 

thing is that we're starting at step one leading 

to a better path of capturing data to improve the 

integrity of organic, and this could be step one 

that could lead to more steps as we go down the 

path of implementing technology into providing 

that information to certifiers that they don't 

have to go dig through records and all that stuff, 

that in the future, probably ten, 15 years down 

the road, that we will get to.

So, the second part I want to talk 

about is standardizing the audit process. And 

so, I work with multiple different certifiers and 

I work with the grower helping them put together 

their paperwork, put together the process to get 

certified and keep that documentation, very large 

farms and very small farms.

And so, it is very time consuming and 
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difficult when working with certifiers, not only 

doing the paperwork, but just understanding 

actually what they want.

And so, I think -- and I'll stop 

there, but just the overall process, the audit 

process is not actually the paperwork. It's just 

understanding what the certifiers actually want 

and it changes year in and year out, so 

standardizing that process could be a huge help 

to farmers.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

you so much for your comments. Questions from 

the Board for Bryce? I have a question for you, 

Bryce. And I want to make sure Amy doesn't have 

one because I know I always speak before -- oh, 

Logan has one. Go ahead, Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: You weren't late. I 

was late to get up. Anyway, so thank you. So, 

we are hearing a lot, you know, a lot of different 

opinions about the acres and standardizing 

things, and we hear more frequently from grain 
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farmers, yes, we want standardization. We want 

help. We need help. There's a lot of -- you 

know, the market could potentially be flooded 

with -- and it's hurting your industry.

And then you hear from the veg and 

specialty crops like we can't standardize. It 

is so diverse. And so, I don't want each one of 

those types of, you know, industries to hinder 

each other. 

We need to address something on both 

sides, but does that -- do you get aggravated 

when you may hear some specialty crop people say 

no, we can't do it? We can't handle it? You 

know, but you're saying it's easy on our side, it 

is. We need something for ourselves. 

So, there may be something that we do 

have to split, you know, with the types of 

growing. I do both grain and veg and I 

understand the differences between the two of 

them, but from what I'm hearing, you guys want 

something, and standardizing it and getting it 
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done is needed.

MR. IRLBECK: And so, I think there's 

different levels of standardization, and from my 

point as a grain farmer, answering different 

questions from different certifiers is not the 

issues. That's fine. That's easy. 

Getting feed tags, doing all of that 

stuff, there's a little nuance that each 

certifier has and they change each year, that we 

did noncompliances for not knowing what they 

haven't told us. 

And so, it's not that you have to get 

strict and have the same questions, the same 

answers, the same everything on it. It's we need 

to know which products are available or not. 

We need to know, all right, we need a 

feed tag and a non-GMO statement, not, you know, 

some other part of it. So, I think 

standardization is taken to the exactly 100 

percent when 50 percent will probably solve a lot 

of the problem.
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MEMBER PETREY: I understand, okay, 

so, and you don't have to answer this question, 

but why are we swapping certifiers so often? I 

can't imagine the headache of swapping.

MR. IRLBECK: So, we're not swapping 

certifiers. I work with a bunch of different 

farmers that choose their own certifier.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay.

MR. IRLBECK: And so, I might have 

ten, 15 farmers --

MEMBER PETREY: I got you.

MR. IRLBECK: -- that work with one 

certifier and ten, 15 that work with another one.

MEMBER PETREY: I see, okay. No, 

that makes sense. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

for Bryce from the Board? So, Bryce, with this 

proposal putting acres on certificates, it does 

ultimately result in more disclosure from the 

farmer, the farmers putting it on the 

certificates for their buyers to see, for their 
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inspectors to see how many of each, how many acres 

of each crop are grown. Do you feel like it's 

worth, that disclosure and transparency is worth 

the potential to fight fraud?

MR. IRLBECK: So, I think there's the 

possibility that the purchasers of these end 

users could use that data to effectively purchase 

your grain for cheaper, but I think if you have 

the data throughout the entire system, it will 

benefit everybody in that system equally. 

So, what that buyer has bought and 

moved would be data that we'd have to understand 

and have as a farmer, as well as what's flowing 

into the country through the multiple different 

entities that they flow into. 

So, yes, it could cause an issue with 

them having more knowledge than the farmer of 

sales and things like that, but I think if you 

have all of the information through the chain, it 

will equal itself out.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, so 
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standardization across the board.

MR. IRLBECK: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Really appreciate 

your comments and thanks for working with us on 

the tech today.

MR. IRLBECK: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, next 

up, we have Tim Cada, followed by Brett Blaser 

and then Bill Wolf. Tim, the floor is yours.

MS. ARSENAULT: Nate, Tim is on the 

phone with us only.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

MS. ARSENAULT: Tim, if you're having 

trouble unmuting your line, you can try *6. I 

see your phone -- I see a red slash through your

phone still, so maybe he's having trouble 

unmuting. There we go. No, no, maybe not. It 

doesn't look like he's -- oh, there we go.

MR. CADA: Good, can you hear me now?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can. 

Please go ahead.
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MR. CADA: Okay, my name is Tim Cada

from Clarkson, Nebraska. I've been farming 

organically for, this is my 29th year we're 

starting, and thank you, guys, for everything you 

do.

We need to have certs that have acres 

listed on them. If your cert says you're 100 

percent organic, that means nothing. If you're 

a conventional farmer with organic ground, you 

can't be 100 percent. It seems like an easy way 

to cheat, and I'm talking from things that I've 

heard of.

If you were listed as 50 percent, what 

does that mean and how is that enforced? 

Integrity is 95 percent of the organic process, 

but money can change that pretty easy sometimes.

I believe we could have what we grow 

listed on our database. It's already listed on 

our database, but the acres would be a good thing. 

Good buyers may be looking for a product that we 

grow.
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As growers, we are on that database -

- sorry, I'm sitting on the side of the road. I 

stopped for this.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All good.

MR. CADA: It wouldn't take much to 

add our acres of crops on a standardized cert. 

Standardized means everybody uses the same form 

cert. We should also have standardized paperwork 

between certifiers, different certifiers and 

inspectors.

I've had inspectors on my farm that 

only have to do it for certifier A, but not 

certifier B. We need to have less interpretation 

of organic rules. We have certifiers that use 

their opinion of the rules.

While I know of instances where 

supposed organic farmers use a herbicide such as 

AXXE as an organic groundup in the field, it is 

restricted, I believe, but it has been broadcast 

as a burndown before planting and the certifier 

says that's okay. You cannot use that.
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We have seed dealers that tell farmers 

how to do things such as last year. If you wait 

to buy your organic soybean seed, we're going to 

be out, and then you can use, buy cheaper, the 

same feed cheaper in a conventional source as the 

organic seed will be gone. Yeah, you can buy 

your seed much cheaper by buying non-organic. 

There's too much indiscrepancy in our 

rules. It's truly frustrating. I sometimes see 

people getting away with murder, for lack of 

another way to put it. I know we have problems 

with certifiers in the U.S. How can we trust 

some of our certified product that comes from 

overseas?

I believe our inspectors are trying, 

but there does need to be better training. I 

have seen inspectors walk into bean fields hit by 

dicamba, easy to see, but they had no clue.

I have been told by inspectors there's 

a lot of money to be made as an inspector. I 

have seen inspectors go through my paperwork 
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until their time allotment for me is over and 

they can't wait to get off of my farm to go onto 

the next.

Lastly, the organic payment by USDA to 

help with the certification costs is kind of 

silly. As a rural crop farmer or rancher, the 

cost of being certified is minor compared to what 

our real problems are.

Right now, I believe one of our 

biggest problems is dicamba drift. It should be 

outlawed within five miles of certified organic 

crops. It is disgusting that this product is 

even available for use in our conventional 

fields, and that's all I have to say.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Tim. 

There was a lot in there, so I'm sure we have --

MR. CADA: I'm sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No, no, all good 

things. I was trying to keep track of the 

different subjects, so sorry if we missed 

anything. Any questions for Tim from the Board?
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 I'll tackle the first one that's most 

germane to our work at hand. Just to clarify, 

Tim, you feel like it's worthwhile to have acres 

on certificates, and as a producer, that sits 

well with your concern about transparency versus 

privacy?

MR. CADA: Correct, there should be 

no privacy in this. If you're getting certified, 

it should be open for everybody to see.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And could --

MR. CADA: MCIA used to do that. I 

don't know if they still do. And I think one 

cert did it at one time. I can't say for sure. 

Right now, they just say if you're 100 percent 

organic or not.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, could 

you speak just a little bit to the scale of your 

operation, how many different crops you grow?

MR. CADA: Blue corn this year, 

soybeans. We've grown sunflowers. We grow a 

couple different kinds of wheat sometimes. We 
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farm about 600 acres and ranch about the same.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, super 

helpful. Well, thank you, Tim, and thank you for 

all of that information, and thanks for making 

time to phone in today. We really appreciate it.

MR. CADA: Hey, thank you, guys. Take 

care.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Take care. Next 

up, we have Brett Blaser, followed by Bill Wolf, 

and then Mark King. Brett, if you're there?

MR. BLASER: Can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can. 

Please go ahead.

MR. BLASER: Okay, all right, sorry 

about that. All right, so my name is Brett 

Blaser. I am a senior merchant with the Scoular 

Company. I work at a non-GMO and organic 

cleaning facility in Illinois.

And the one thing I do want to talk 

about here today is the strengthening and the 

integrity of the organic certification for the 
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organic farmer. 

I mean, I basically want to echo what 

Bryce and Tim were saying, that I think it's very 

important to have the crop type and the acres on 

the certificate, and some have it, some don't.

But one example and one reason why I 

think that is super important is last year, we 

had a guy that had 100 acres contracted with us, 

because all of our contracts are acre contracts. 

He had 100 acres contracted with us. 

In his area, they average about 50

bushels to acre, so in theory, that contract 

should have been 5,000 bushels. He tried 

contracting 8,500 bushels. 

On his organic certificate, it did say 

that he has 100 acres of soybeans, amongst blue 

corn, white corn, whatever else it was on the 

contract, or on the certificate. I can't 

remember right now. But it did say he had 100 

acres of soybeans and he's trying to contract 85 

bushels to acre which is not -- there's no way he 
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could have gotten that.

So, we red-flagged that right away, 

questioned him about it, and in the end, he did 

not contract those acres with us. So, in my eyes, 

we caught the bird before it even became a 

problem.

Another example that we just had here 

recently this year, now that the organic prices 

have gone, you know, crazy, through the roof, is 

we've had people come to us that we haven't had 

contracts before trying to, you know, trying to 

sell us bushels. 

Okay, what we do here, we have to have 

the organic certificate before we even contract 

the acres, so that's what we do. Send us your 

updated organic certificates, then we can 

contract the acres and give you the price that we 

agreed upon.

A guy this past year was going to 

contract for 2,000 bushels with us, asked for his 

certificate, never got his certificate, trying to 
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track him down to get his certificate. 

Finally, he sends us the certificate. 

It doesn't say anything about what crops were on 

that certificate, so we questioned it. Again, 

did not contract the acres with us, did not 

contract the bushels with us.

So, in my eyes, I think if you have 

the acres, if you have the crops type and what -

-how many acres that crop type has certified, to 

answer one of the questions you had, Bryce, yes, 

I do think that it will help fraud and help, you 

know -- it won't eliminate it completely, I don't 

think, but it definitely will impact that and 

help the less fraudulent attempts, so to speak, 

so that is all I have here for today.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. We 

definitely have some questions for you. So, 

Logan, please go ahead?

MEMBER PETREY: Hi, thank you for 

calling in. I really mainly want to applaud you 

and your company. I've worked with you guys 
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before. I've had some contracts. 

And there's also we had an issue with 

a broker and you guys contacted us, that was 

using, you know, claiming to be us, and I just 

again want to applaud your company for really 

watching out on the fraud side of things, and if 

there are other people who contract that may not 

be doing that kind of work.

And so, I definitely heard that you 

need, you know, you need more information on that 

and we do want to help you guys out, because if 

you guys are looking to protect yourselves and 

protect the industry, then that speaks highly of 

you guys. So, again, I just wanted to applaud 

you and your company. Thank you.

MR. BLASER: Yes, no, thank you. I 

mean, we take a lot of pride in it too, and really 

it's something that, I mean, I don't understand 

why people wouldn't want to be all about it. 

Because in my eyes, if you're not for it, you're 

kind of red-flagging yourself. I mean, maybe 
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not. 

Maybe I'm thinking about it too harsh, 

but I just feel like if you're not for putting 

the acres and you're not for putting what type of 

crops is on said acres, then, yeah, you're redflagging yourself.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have another 

question for you from Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Hi, Brett. Thank 

you for your comments today. It's really, really 

appreciated. My question to you is, and help me 

out here a little bit, so you said that you're at 

one of your facilities, is that correct?

MR. BLASER: Correct.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Which facility are 

you at?

MR. BLASER: It's Andres, Illinois. 

It's a town of literally like 14 people, so if 

you --

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Got you.

MR. BLASER: If you happen to look it 
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up, Peotone, Illinois is kind of the closest 

quote-unquote big town, I guess.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay, are there 

other organic non-GMO elevators in your area that 

compete for bushels that you're sourcing today?

MR. BLASER: So, we do have, I mean, 

DeLong is near us. They do some non-GMOs. CGB 

does some non-GMOs near us. As far as organic 

and everything that we do here at my particular 

plant is food grade based, so we don't do any 

feed grade. It's all food grade.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay.

MR. BLASER: I know we have some, I 

don't know, about an hour, hour and a half away 

that's feed grade organics, but in our area, I 

would say that we are, I think we are on the only 

food grade based organic cleaning facility.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: As an end user, when 

I look at acres on certificates, I think that, 

that's great, but I don't want to -- how do you 

handle, I guess, could a farmer contract with you 
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what would look like to be reasonable acres and 

then contract with a competitor the same amount 

of acres? How do you aggregate that from an end 

user standpoint or an elevator standpoint? What 

would be your thoughts around that?

MR. BLASER: Well, from our 

standpoint, like right, yeah, right as soon as we 

have a contract agreement, a price agreement for 

those acres, and then we get the certificate and 

we make sure that it's matching up with what we're 

buying, and we understand too that there's some 

places that you're going to get 20, 30 bushels to 

the acre and some places you are going to get 50 

or 60 bushels an acre, so we do take that into 

consideration, but once everything kind of 

matches up and we check the organic integrity 

database --

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yeah.

MR. BLASER: -- we immediately send 

them their contract and we verbally call them and 

say the contract's on the way. We sent you your 
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e-signature contract. Please sign it. Then 

once we get it signed back and if we got the 

signed contract, we check the certificates. If 

that's good, then we get the ball rolling and we 

get the beans rolling in.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: And you're 

contracting by acres, not by -- by whatever the 

production is on that land, not just by bushels 

or tons, correct?

MR. BLASER: Currently, correct. 

That might be changing. I don't know if that's 

for sure. We might be going to bushels, but 

currently, yes, we are doing acre contracts --

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay.

MR. BLASER: -- so full production on 

those acres.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Got you. That's 

very helpful. Again, thank you. I really 

appreciate your time today, Brett.

MR. BLASER: No problem. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for the 
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real-world example, Brett. That is -- and I 

encourage everyone to bring more of those. That 

is really helpful to illuminate, you know, what 

is actually going on out there. 

So, as Logan said, thank you for your 

company's effort to fight fraud. It's a huge 

part of the piece and we appreciate you making 

the time to comment today.

MR. BLASER: No problem. Thank you 

for having me.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Take care. Next 

up, we have Bill Wolf, followed by Mark King, and 

then Robert Rankin. After that, we have three 

more commenters, Adam Warthesen, Mark Lipson, and 

Jo Ann Baumgartner, and then we'll break. So, 

Bill Wolf, please go ahead.

MR. WOLF: Wow, great comments I'm 

hearing and great questions, tough act to follow, 

but I'll try. I'm Bill Wolf with Second Star 

Farm and Wolf and Associates. I'm an organic 

farmer, entrepreneur, and consultant. For 
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decades, I've worked to increase organic acreage 

and improve land stewardship. 

The topics you tackle are more complex 

and diverse than any other FAC, federal advisory 

committee. I thank each of you for this amazing 

work and believe you need more support. Slide 

two, please?

Organic has grown exponentially, but 

infrastructure has not kept up. We submitted a 

range of written and oral comments, including 

ways to address this growth. Today, I'll talk 

about two topics. Slide three, please?

The need for you to receive 

professional support that can make NOSB more 

effective. You volunteer, sometimes nearly full 

time, to study highly technical issues and make 

decisions that impact the work of farmers, 

handlers, and regulators around the globe.

As an advisory board, you make 

difficult decisions, but should not be required 

to be the experts on everything, and certainly 
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shouldn't be expected to spend valuable volunteer 

time on operational processes.

There are four areas where expert 

support is needed to help you, one, verify facts 

and ensure accurate and complete information, 

two, finalize and accurately reflect the content 

of oral and written public comments, three, draft 

your recommendations and regulatory language so 

that they are truly actionable and enforceable 

and can be accepted and implemented, finally, 

track and summarize the history of decisions with 

the hope of avoiding past errors.

As a case in point, slide four? We 

request that you renew mulch films. Further, I 

ask that you work toward allowing it as 

originally petitioned. It's been ten years since 

the NOSB voted that this material met the 

criteria of OFPA, but unworkable annotations were 

added to essentially prohibit its use.

I've personally trialed and observed 

these mulch films and they do biodegrade. In 
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2012, at the NOSB, staff and NOP staff visited 

fields where it was in use on a formerly organic 

farm. Slide five, please?

Earthworms are our de facto mascot of 

organic agriculture. I've brought earthworms to 

many NOSB meetings, but these virtual wigglers 

will have to suffice. When you vote, please 

consider what would be good for them. Slide six?

Applying all of these principles, we 

have submitted comments on numerous topics, some 

listed here. Please review them when you have 

time. Slide seven?

Thank you truly for this opportunity 

to comment.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Bill. 

Questions from the Board? As always, Bill, we 

really appreciate your time, both written and 

oral comments, so thank you very much.

MR. WOLF: You got it, thanks.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Take care. Next 

up, we've got Mark King, followed by Robert 
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Rankin and then Adam Warthesen. I think Mark 

King is going to have slides.

MR. KING: Good afternoon, everyone. 

Thank you for your continued dedication in 

developing and maintaining organic standards. 

Can everyone hear me okay?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please 

go ahead.

MR. KING: Thank you, Nate. My name 

is Mark King. I'm the organic program manager 

at Upward Farms. Upward Farms is a controlled 

environment, ecological farming, and aquaculture 

company located in Brooklyn, New York. 

We support the crops subcommittee 

consideration to recommend that carbon dioxide be 

added to section 205.601(j) as a plant or soil 

amendment. Next slide, please?

This slide is simply a brief history 

of CEA. I was surprised to realize that it's 

been around since Roman times. So, TA and 

greenhouse production is not new or experimental.
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 Supplemental lighting was first used 

in the late 1800s, and more recently, about 25 

years ago, commercial scale lettuce production 

was implemented at Cornell University in 1999. 

Next slide, please?

This slide depicts essentially that 

CO2 is safe. It's considered to be minimally 

toxic by inhalation. The OSHA permissible 

exposure limit for an eight-hour period is 5,000 

PPM. An operation like Upward Farms would 

typically utilize somewhere between 600 and 1,000 

PPM, so well below the safety threshold 

recognized by OSHA. Next slide, please?

This is a graphical depiction of yield 

increase for soybeans and wheat in controlled 

environments. So, when you look above ambient 

levels of roughly 400 parts per million, you can 

see that there is a significant increase up to 

around 600, and then it flattens out to 800.

Horticultural experts that I've 

spoken to in the last year or so have really 
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indicated that in any environment, controlled 

included, that CO2 is just one of many variables, 

and I'm sure your crop production experts on the 

Board are aware of that. 

So, other variables would be, you 

know, light or temperature, humidity, things that 

we're all very familiar with. Next slide, 

please?

This is a graphical depiction of 

enrichment and what CO2 enrichment has on growth 

impact, so again, above normal air or ambient 

temperatures, around 400, you do see a measurable 

increase up to 600. This is, again, measurable, 

but not necessarily like in super crop status, if 

you will. 

There is variability as you know in 

both the natural world and in controlled 

environments for CO2 levels in any particular 

production area. Some of those are similar in 

that regard. Next slide, please?

At Upward Farms, we get up every --
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let me finish this slide. We get every day 

thinking about how we can utilize natural 

resources in a response and somewhat circular or 

even regenerative fashion.

So, we want to be good stewards of the 

operation. And we've estimated that we can 

redirect roughly a third of the CO2 needs for our 

crop production system from our aquaculture 

operation. 

For the remainder of the plant needs 

to be healthy and happy, we've contacted nearly 

30 organizations and what we've learned is the 

non-synthetic supply chain is extremely limited, 

and for those who are capturing non-synthetic 

CO2, most of them are utilizing it internally and 

are not interested in partnerships with an 

outside operation. Those would be like through 

manufacturers.

So, anyway, thank you for your time 

today, and if there are any questions now, I'd be 

glad to take them, and I'll also be attending the 
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NOSB meeting in Sacramento and we could discuss 

further there too, so.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Fantastic. Thank 

you so much for your presentation. Logan has a 

question for you.

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you, Mark, and 

thank you for your comments and information that 

you have given me. 

So, yeah, I think most people are in 

agreeance that we're working with a product that 

is relatively safe, and I think you're aware that 

we are postponing the ruling for J into -- you 

know, we're actually requesting a TR to fully 

understand that to use as a crop input or sole 

amendment, but I've got a couple questions on 

that topic.

Do you think that there should be a 

limit to how much is used or, you know, regulated 

at the measure the parts per million that's 

currently, that would be present for you to be 

able to use CO2? I'm just trying to understand 
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that.

I have never grown in a controlled 

environment, and so I've never been able to use 

this, and so I'm trying to understand it as a 

farmer, that input and how to use it properly.

MR. KING: Yeah, that's a great 

question. Thank you, Logan. I think that that's 

a question not only in understanding controlled 

environment agriculture, but then understanding 

the process as well relative to the NOSB, and the 

program, and enforcement of restriction that 

might be placed on a certain section of the 

regulation.

So, my opinion is, based on my 

experience and what I've seen, is that a 

controlled environment operation, including 

greenhouses, is not going to utilize any 

substance that would be detrimental to the health 

of the plant, the people, the environment, and 

the like.

Therefore, given the science behind 
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this, and you see the thresholds of 800 parts per 

million to 1,000 really being the maximum 

threshold that could keep a plant happy if you 

will, I can't imagine that an operation would 

exceed that, I guess, is what I'm saying to you.

So, I don't know, given all of the 

variables in regulating and, you know, enforcing 

the standards for organic agriculture, that this 

is one where you would want to put that limit on 

there --

MEMBER PETREY: Okay.

MR. KING: -- knowing that, you know, 

operations, they're smart. They employ smart 

people.

MEMBER PETREY: Yeah.

MR. KING: You know, they're probably 

not going to exceed that. Does that make sense?

MEMBER PETREY: You're right. I 

don't know that we can because all operations are 

different. You know, I kind of want to say that 

for nitrogen too, like if you just keep adding 
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it, it would be happier and happier, right, but 

we understand, yeah, as a farmer, we are 

responsible for the longevity of our growing 

system and we have a self-interest in that too, 

to keep that in check.

And this is an input that is different 

than other inputs such as, you know, like 

fungicides or any pesticides. They have EPA 

regulations on them that must be followed, and so 

this is more of an input that would be more 

nutritional or that -- I mean, I can't call it a 

nutrient, but anyway, so it's kind of falling 

into that category. Okay, well, thank you, Mark, 

appreciate it.

MR. KING: Yeah, thank you for your 

question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Mark from the Board? All right, 

appreciate it, Mark. Thank you.

All right, folks, we are two minutes 

-- eight minutes to the hour. Let's take a 
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break. Let's come back at five after the hour 

just for easy remembering. It's about a 13-

minute break and we will see you five minutes 

after the hour.

Right after the break, we're going to 

start with Robert Rankin, followed by Adam 

Warthesen, and then Mark Lipson.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 1:52 p.m. and resumed at 

2:05 p.m.) 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So 

first up, we've got Robert Rankin followed by 

Adam Warthesen and then Mark Lipson. Robert, 

please go ahead.

MR. RANKIN: Good afternoon. Robert 

Rankin, Executive Director, International Food 

Additives Council. IFAC is an association 

representing manufacturers and users of food 

ingredients including a number of substances 

permitted for use in organic handling.

IFAC strongly supports subcommittee's 
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recommendations to relist carbon dioxide and 

sodium phosphates at 205.605(b) as well as pectin 

at 205.606. These ingredients are used in 

alignment with organic principles and are 

essential to organic food production. As noted 

in the subcommittee materials, carbon dioxide has 

been demonstrated to be essential to organic food 

production.

And IFAC is not aware of commercially 

available organic alternatives that can perform 

the certain technical functions such as beverage 

carbonation in those products. Sodium 

phosphates also remain essential. In response 

to the subcommittee's question about 

alternatives, sodium phosphates perform critical 

functions in organic dairy foods including 

stabilization, emulsification, and pH buffering 

while other ingredients such as citrates may be 

used in some applications. They cannot replace 

the quantity of applications or quality of 

technical functions as phosphates.
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Regarding the question about 

potential health impacts of phosphates, I'd like 

to again highlight a new publication sponsored by 

IFAC that looks at potential associations between 

phosphorous related biomarkers and health status 

and mortality in individuals enrolled in the 

National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. 

The article which was published in April of this 

year found no meaningful associations between 

phosphorous intake and negative health outcomes 

in the general population.

In fact, the authors found a higher 

dietary phosphorous intake was associated with 

increased mineral bone content and bone density 

and a decreased risk of high blood pressure. The 

researchers did find an association between 

phosphorous intake and an increased risk of 

reducing levels of HDL or good cholesterol. But 

overall, this new data supports previous 

determinations that phosphates remain safe 

ingredients. I'd like to remind the Board of 
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IFAC's request to expand the annotation for 

sodium phosphates to include processed meat and 

poultry products.

Sodium phosphates may be used as a 

sequestrant which prevents oxidation, preserves 

product quality, and helps make meat plumper and 

juicier. We believe this addition would provide 

additional value to the organic community and 

encourage the Board to consider proposing this 

annotation when appropriate. Pectin also 

remains essential for organic food production 

based on the lack of commercially available 

organic pectin as a result of insufficient 

supplies of organically produced fruit citrus 

peels.

Many products labeled organic 

including jams and jellies cannot be produced 

without pectin. IFAC is pleased with the 

subcommittees determination that pectin complies 

with OFPA and should be relisted. Finally, IFAC 

appreciates the NOSB's continued work around ion 
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exchange filtration and supports not only the 

approaches separating the discussion on listing 

recharge materials, from listing resins, but also 

the recommendations that require the listing of 

recharge materials on the National List. Thank 

you for your attention.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you for 

joining us today. Any questions for Robert from 

the Board?

(No audible response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

really appreciate it, Robert. Thank you.

MR. RANKIN: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Adam Warthesen followed by Mark Lipson and then 

Joanne Baumgartner.

MS. ARSENAULT: Adam's on the line 

with us, Nate, but his mic is muted. Maybe he's 

having technical issues getting unmuted. I don't 

see him unmuting.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Adam, if you're 
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there and want to unmute, we are ready for you. 

We'll jump to Mark Lipson and we'll come back to 

you, Adam.

MR. LIPSON: Hello?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hello. Please go 

ahead.

MR. LIPSON: Hi, I'm Mark Lipson. 

I'm the former USDA organic policy advisor. I 

served as the first one from 2010 to 2014. Part 

of Molino Creek Farm here in the Santa Cruz 

Mountains of California since 1983.

I consulted on a couple of projects in 

the organic policy space and currently affiliated 

with the Center for Agroecology at the University 

of California, Santa Cruz. So I'm one of your 

historical relics, an ancestor of the organic 

program from its pre-beginnings. Thank you to 

everybody for all the heavy lifting that's going 

on.

I'm just amazed at what the Board and 

all the commenters had been showing and bringing 
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this week. What I'm here to talk about today is 

to acknowledge the huge see-change, the quantum 

leap in resources that are being devoted to 

organic systems now by USDA. The 300 million 

dollar cluster of organic transition initiatives, 

the organic research and extension initiative now 

reaching 50 million, climate smart partnerships, 

resources, local and regional food initiatives 

all are a huge change in the environment that the 

NOSB and the NOP are operating in.

I want to note especially with organic 

transition initiatives that the organic community 

is sort of like the dog that was chasing the car 

and now it's got it and has to figure out what to 

do with it. Are we prepared for the influx of 

resources and production that will happen if this 

initiative is successful? Is there a shared 

strategy for how to make it successful and do we 

even know what the outcomes are that we desire?

And this all bears very much on the 

impact that organic will have as a champion of 
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climate forward -- climate impacting agriculture. 

It's also in its formative stages. So I'm here 

to say that it's going to need a lot of attention 

by the NOSB and everybody else.

The (audio interference.) is the role 

of the Natural Resources Conservation Service as 

the source of the (audio interference.) At this 

time, NRCS only has 25 qualified technical 

service providers who are knowledgeable about 

organic for consulting on NRCS organic 

conservation. I'll stop there and see if you 

have any questions.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

appreciate you joining us today. Javier has a 

question for you.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Yeah, Mark. Senior 

Mark, happy to see you. You look good. I 

haven't seen you for a while. One of my 

questions is you mentioned are we prepared. Can 

you elaborate a little more about that?

Are we prepared in which ways, to 
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market-wise to receive all these new products 

that will come in the USDA 300 million dollar 

transition grant actually makes a difference in 

the organic industry? Is that what you're 

saying? Or in which ways? I'd just like to hear 

our perspective about it.

MR. LIPSON: Yeah, there are multiple 

aspects to it. The change in the market dynamics 

is one dimension. What will happen? Will these 

transitioning producers be able to succeed in the 

market and how will that affect everything else 

who's already in it?

But it will also affect the NOSB and 

the NOP in terms of the stakes that are present 

with all the work we do. It's going to affect 

potentially a lot more acreage, a lot more 

different production. So we've had a history 

over the years of waves of organic transition 

that did not succeed.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, 

there's a large amount of acreage that came out 
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of the conservation reserve program into organic 

because it was easy to transition it. And a 

large amount of that failed after a couple of 

years. And it left black dye within the large 

part of the Midwest agriculture community for 

organic because of that. So there's multiple 

risks along with the opportunity that have to be 

thought about and adapted to. Short answer.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It's a great one. 

Mindee, please go ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you, Mark. 

I really appreciate all the work you've done for 

this community. And I am interested in your 

thoughts on how the NRCS informed our shared 

strategies for success.

MR. LIPSON: Yes, NRCS is problematic 

as an agency for organic. There's been some 

great work that's been done there. But the rank 

and file of the agency is still largely 

unfamiliar with organic and in some cases not 

sympathetic.
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The crossover between organic systems 

plans and conservation plans which are the 

analogous central tool for NRCS programs is 

something that's been worked on for years but is 

not solved. And the transaction costs for 

producers to do both OSP and the conservation 

plan have been prohibited. So this bears 

directly on the NOSB effort to deal with the 

standardized OSPs and the larger question of 

minimum reporting requirements.

So that synthesis with the NRCS system 

has to be part of any changes that happened in 

that sphere. And one more thing to mention is 

that the NRCS organic transition program will be 

a very important economic factor for 

transitioning producers who use it. There'll be 

payments from NRCS or organic transition that 

weren't there before.

And this is going to change the 

equation for how transitioning producers enter 

the market and what the impact of their 
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transition is on the finances of their operation. 

So that's a couple of partial answers to your 

question, Mindee. I hope that was kind of clear.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you, Mark. 

I appreciate you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have another 

question for you, Mark, from Allison. Allison, 

please go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks. Hi, Mark. 

That's for being here today. I'm going to follow 

up on Mindee's question and ask more specifically 

given that you've been on so many different sides 

of the NRCS organic dynamic, I'm curious if you 

have thoughts about the standardization of forms 

and what the best solution from your perspective 

would be for making it easy for NRCS to look to 

organic system plans as evidence of environmental 

stewardship and meeting the requirements of 

conservation programs.

MR. LIPSON: Basically, there's got 

to be some kind of merger between the structure 
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of the OSP and the structure of the conservation 

plan documents. Trying to make them parallel 

hasn't really solved that transaction cost 

problem. So it needs to become more seamless.

I don't know how to put it other than 

that in a short amount of time. But that's a big 

heavy lift. It's not going to be easy for the 

certifiers. But if this is going to succeed, and 

I do think we want it to, then a more complete 

embrace of the NRCS conservation program system 

by the organic community is going to be 

necessary. And it will have significant positive 

economic impacts on the producers who are able to 

use it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So I'll just 

follow up that with a quick question, Mark. If 

I hear you right, you're seeing a universal OSP 

but also a universal OSP that's integrated cross 

agency?

MR. LIPSON: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.
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MR. LIPSON: Exactly.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

really appreciate you joining us, Mark. You're 

a legend. So thanks for making the time today 

and thanks for calling in. I think we still have 

Adam. If you're ready to go, the floor is yours.

MR. WARTHESEN: Thanks, Nate. Always 

good to hear from Mark. He is a legend. I'm 

Adam Warthesen. I work with Organic Valley where

I help with our industry affairs.

Our co-op is made up of 1,800 farmers 

in 34 states. Plan to give comments on two 

topics, crop acres on certificates and then 

animal care rulemaking. I'll start with the 

second one first.

Organic Valley at its core, we are a 

livestock center cooperative. We make up of 

farmers who raise livestock and then commodities 

that we aggregate, process, and market. And as 

you all know, AMS is in the process of accepting 

comments on the organic livestock and poultry 
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standard proposed rule.

I would note that the Board has 

maintained a really longstanding position that 

USDA needs to clarify the expectation for organic 

livestock production and that bureaucratic delays 

are unacceptable. So one thing I would suggest 

the Board consider next week to again pass a 

resolution that communicates clearly to the 

Secretary that the intention of finalizing an 

act, this OPS is necessary. And it is in concert 

with the vast number of organic stakeholders and 

consumers.

This would illustrate the Board's 

attention and continue continuity with past 

resolutions. Regarding acres by cropless 

noncertificates, a lot of conversation on this. 

And I think there's a lot of good intention on 

it.

I think where we stand and fall down 

is sort of where MOSA and Organically Grown 

Company spoke to last -- it was two days ago that 
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we have some concerns about those listed on 

certificates. I say that because we have 1,800 

farmers. We also have feed program. And having 

those pieces on a certificate, we are concerned 

about products and concerns of our membership.

Now I think the intention is good. I 

think the question is on a USDA searchable 

database, who has access to that and how is it 

used. Who mines that data? What is it used for 

I think is kind of the questions that I struggle 

to bear with.

MOSA has the organic production sheet 

that is really strong. We do have transaction 

certificates if we have concerns. And we do have 

a strengthening organic enforcement forthcoming.

So those are things I think might 

better inform how we deal with fraud especially 

at this sort of aggregator level. Additionally, 

I'd just caution the Board, you can say one style 

or one kind of unit of production acres we should 

put on the certificate. I don't know how you 
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would say then why wouldn't we put our number of 

cows or number of fruit trees on a farm or number 

of hogs or number of pens.

So I don't know where you would --

what would justify your stopping at one place and 

not in another place. And so one thing I've 

learned talking with a lot of farmers is the 

things you don't ask is how many cows do you milk 

and how many acres do you have. That's a 

conversation that takes trust before you can 

build that into a dialogue. So I know probably 

some questions and appreciate any.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Adam. 

We really appreciate it. Amy has a question for 

you.

MEMBER BRUCH: Adam, thank you so much 

for your time today and your submittal of the 

written comments as well. I did have a question 

for you. When I looked through your written 

comments, you talk about the fraud prevention 

plan that you've established in your operation.
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So in that, I can see that you 

identify commodity markets as high risk, organic 

integrity. So therefore, you say you actually 

collect information of crops grown, crop acreage, 

crop yield, seed use, and field members. And 

your farmers understand these reports are 

critical for business to mitigate fraud.

And so taking that information and 

then taking kind of a snapshot of some of the 

comments we heard yet today, there was a 

gentleman that spoke of examples, the grain dryer 

and found examples similar to yours. There's 

risk in that equation. So his stance, was that 

information that you had mentioned is important 

to your business and abbreviated form, acres on 

certificates would be beneficial.

So I just want to ask you a question. 

If it's beneficial for several people and that's 

a big risk that we've heard today, why not make 

that information consistent to everything in an 

outward facing form versus an inward facing form 
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that's taken up by 74 different certifiers? So 

I'm just curious on your thoughts on consistency 

of a piece of your fraud prevention plan that 

might benefit others.

MR. WARTHESEN: Yeah, I'm really glad 

you asked that because I just walked onto our pea 

departments. Okay. Talk to me about how we 

contract with producers. We do it both by acres 

and then by bushels.

And we do have the fraud prevention 

plan which I think ever certified entity will 

need to have at the end of SOE. In those 

instances where we feel there is significant 

risk, we are requesting demanding transaction 

certificates. That is the tool that we use.

And we have strong relationships with 

the growers within our grower pool to have a 

better understanding what kind of production that 

they have year end, year out. So that's the 

space that we really used to help mitigate risk. 

I think that the question on acres on certificate 
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by crop is I'm not sure we demonstrated that's 

really going to solve our challenge of fraud.

Like, we kind of got some anecdotal 

examples. But, like, do we really -- is it 

really going to -- it's more theory than, like, 

has it actually worked in practice. So I thought 

the question you posed to OFPA on that was a 

really good one. Like, do they have examples 

that they've seen because of this listing that 

they may be able to demonstrate we have a real 

problem here and then a suspension or revocation 

of a certificate.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, 

Adam. Appreciate that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next question is 

from Rick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Adam, thanks very 

much. You raised an interesting issue. So I'm 

a CCOF certified organic avocado farmer in 

California. And I've been reporting acreage 

forever.
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But it's interesting and what you've 

caused me to think about is now there's high 

density avocado tree planning. So you can have 

four or five, six times as many avocado trees on 

an acre than you usually had in the old days where 

everybody planted on a 10x10 or 15x15 quadrant. 

So all I want to say is you've sort of opened my 

eyes to an interesting issue.

I have no problem submitting acreage. 

That's not a big deal. But it'll make a 

difference because somebody who has 20 acres of 

avocados, it's high density. It's going to have 

a much bigger yield and they look like they're 

fraudulent when in fact has to do with the 

spacing. And that's basically the inspector. 

But thanks for your comment. Appreciate it.

MR. WARTHESEN: Yeah, and I think what 

I'd add to that is not only on avocados but in 

grain. We work in the grain market quite a bit 

because of our livestock sort of side. We do 

have farms that are storing grain for a long 
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period of time. So sometimes it can look like 

an inflated amount of production in a salable 

year.

This year, you'd want to sell every 

soybean you had. Maybe three years ago, you'd 

want to hold that and you might have the ability 

to do that on a farm. And I'm not sure that, 

like, having an acre on a certificate is going to 

translate into, oh, I have a really good vantage 

point of what's going on with that farm sort of 

business enterprise.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Appreciate your 

comment. Thanks.

MR. WARTHESEN: Yeah, thanks, Rick.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up is Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Hey, Adam. Thanks for 

your comments. I thought maybe the question that 

Amy asked and your answer might answer the 

question that I was going to ask. But it didn't 

quite.

So I just wondered if you could expand 
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a little bit on what you were talking about in 

regards to privacy or farmers' concerns related 

to confidential business information. And you 

talked about building up that trust or whatever. 

What are the concerns? Because I'm feel like 

we're hearing, like, oh, this information is 

available other places. What's the --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MR. WARTHESEN: But it really isn't. 

I don't know of any other USDA program where 

you're recording your acres in a searchable 

database that people can pull from. I mean, if 

anyone has an example of that, I'd welcome in.

We are familiar with environmental 

working group's website. But that's really based 

on a subsidy that you receive and then a subsidy 

for what type of crop, not necessarily by an acre. 

So if you have data and it is mined and people 

are able to capture it, you could have instances 

where you have geographic areas where land rents 

and land values are high and/or you could be 
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perceived as, well, I want to pinch that. I want 

to be able to get as much out of my land as I 

possibly can.

And if I know that farmer has got this 

kind of production over here on cattle and I can 

see he doesn't have enough corn acreage and he's 

necessarily going to need my corn acreage, it 

might allow you to sort of pinch that farmer. I 

think you could also make the case on the buyer 

side that it really arms a grain buyer with more 

information than they would have otherwise. And 

that might dictate how they determine pricing 

with that farmer, not just whether they meet the 

-- do they have enough acres to grow.

But, like, well, I know he's kind of 

got this number of acres on this kind of 

production in that area. So maybe my pricing can 

fluctuate with that. I think you could also ask 

the question around how does a farmer want -- I 

don't know all the interests that might be 

looking at this data set.
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You could also have -- and I'm not 

necessarily worried about this. But you can also 

have a set of activist interests that are finding 

out who owns land and how much land they got. 

And they could be part of a campaign.

And that would put a lot of pressure 

on that producer. We already see that because 

we have some producers that are close to 

metropolitan areas. And you guys could 

understand my population of farmers kind of is 

across the entire spectrum.

Some are about a third, I would say, 

they don't care about this issue or they wouldn't 

think it's a big deal. A few would say, it sounds 

like it'd be more work. I'm not sure the 

taxonomy or the nomenclature of the certificate 

would be appropriate. And then I'd have a third 

that would be, like, I didn't sign up to have my 

acres displayed on a database. So you guys all 

have that same sort of audience too.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 
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ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah, thank you. I 

just thought of one additional follow up, and I 

rechecked your written comments. So I understand 

your concerns. I hear them.

And then I looked at your written 

comments and you also are in support of this 

information on an aggregated space. So depending 

on how granular the aggregation is, I think some 

of those concerns that you just mentioned maybe 

still would be in play. So can you comment on 

the differences on how maybe the aggregation 

would be satisfactory in your opinion, but at a 

farmer level it would.

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MR. WARTHESEN: Yeah, that's a really 

good point and a good question. So let me answer 

that in a couple of different ways. One is kind 

of searchable database that you can pull a 

farmer's name and that data.

If we're really trying to enable the 
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inspector at the aggregator level, I do think 

perhaps there's a way that you could firewall it 

within NOID. You had suggested that, I think 

maybe today or yesterday, as one consideration or 

option to kind of pursue. In terms of -- at the 

broader level, I think that's really -- I 

wouldn't want to complete that with what we're 

asking particular producers to do.

But that's kind of like understanding 

the scale and size of a market and a commodity 

kind of writ large. And also how much of that 

is available? How much do we see coming into the 

marketplace? That gives us some understanding 

more broadly of, like, do we think a certain 

region is over forecasting what's providing to 

the market.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, 

Adam. I appreciate that extra information.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Adam. 

This is really helpful. As of now, just want to 

make sure it's clear that acres are the 
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suggestion. There's no other component of the 

certificate that's on there. So no animals.

The question I had for you is when we 

think about the -- I think Organic Valley has a 

really great reputation up and down for good 

integrity across the board. When I think about 

the point of what we're discussing with acres on 

certificates, I think about the market share lost 

by your grain growers, growers who are doing it 

right and growers who have the interest of market 

filled with integrity at heart. So when we think 

about 100-plus million from Randy Constant, 46 

million from Cottonwood, Minnesota, several tens 

of millions from South Dakota, if there is a 

mechanism to slow the role on the fraudsters, how 

do you weigh the tradeoff between transparency 

which might be a little uncomfortable and maybe 

not culturally appropriate.

My grandpa always said, never ask a 

man how many cows he has. It's the same as asking 

what's in his bank account. I respect that.
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But at the same time, we're dealing in 

a world that trades on transparency. The reason 

we have consumer trust is transparency. So we've 

already signed up for a little bit more of a 

transparent system than we might live in the 

convention world. What is that balance?

MR. WARTHESEN: Well, that's quite a 

question. Yeah, I think we have all recognized 

this challenge especially in grain and in other 

places where fraud might be perpetuated. We do 

have a rulemaking in the process on strengthening 

organic enforcement, right?

And I think we've federal legislation 

that's now promulgated into a rule that's going 

to come bout that'll give us a little bit more. 

We have risk assessments that are done on high 

risk operations. And we could use additional 

guidance on that I think within the certification 

world.

There are other tools that probably 

could be enhanced that I would subject like what 
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MOSA offers and/or transaction certificates. 

But I've heard transaction certificates aren't 

necessarily favorably viewed by the entire 

community. I think they should be more often 

used if we could support them, especially in 

instances where we have kind of worries or 

concerns.

I don't know how you would catch the 

Randy Constant problem. That seems like that was 

a pretty big miss by our community. And I'm not 

confident. Would acres on certificates solve 

that?

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MR. WARTHESEN: I think that's really 

speculative.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah, nothing is 

going to solve it. But I think when we consider 

how do we equip folks in the certification space 

with more tools. And anyway, the community has 

tossed our certificates out. Amy and I talked 

about it a couple discussion documents ago. Not 
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happening. We do have the chance because of the 

--

MR. WARTHESEN: But we're using it at 

the co-op.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No, totally. 

Just consistency across the board. Again, you 

guys are the good guys. And I don't mean to play 

favorites.

But there's a lot of work that goes 

into Organic Valley's transparency and integrity. 

It's the other folks. And so when we think about 

how can we get tools in the hands of inspectors 

and hands of certifiers that allow that look 

back, it seems like this is somewhat worth the 

squeezed juice, worth the squeeze. But I hear 

your concerns --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MR. WARTHESEN: Yeah, I wonder if one 

consideration -- we have a dairy compliance 

project within the NOP that has looked at sort of 

spot checks by the NOP on farms to make sure 
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they're hitting their grazing marks, their sort 

of all animal care conditions on a farm. I 

wonder if they could be in a place that we'd want 

to expand that within the grain world as well 

domestically if it is a major concern.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Worth a 

conversation for sure. We appreciate your 

comments today. Thanks for spending so much time 

with us. All right. Next up, we have Jo Ann 

Baumgartner followed by Paul Muller and then 

Heidi Ahlstrand.

MS. BAUMGARTNER: Hi, yeah. Thank 

you. Oh, great. There's my presentation. 

Yeah, hi. I'm Jo Ann Baumgartner, Executive 

Director of Wild Farm Alliance. And my comments 

today are protecting ecosystems.

In the last NOSB meeting while 

speaking about the Board's recommendation to 

protect native ecosystems, NOP's Jenny Tucker 

stated, we truly do understand the importance of 

the issue to the community. People feel very, 
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very strongly about this and it really does 

strike at a core organic and some very key 

questions. Next. She also said we'd like to 

see significant support by the organic community.

They had seen that. Protecting 

native ecosystems was the third most referenced 

NOSB recommendation of NOP's question to the 

organic community about how they should 

prioritize their work on past NOSB 

recommendations. Next. There are three reasons 

-- there are reasons for high priority ratings 

that organic community cares.

Many organic businesses believe a 

moral responsibility to the natural world. Next. 

They also know their customers don't want to pay 

extra for products that have destroyed native 

ecosystems. And ignoring this issue is ruining 

the integrity of organic agriculture.

It's not fair to farmers who have to 

wait three years to transition conventional land 

when farmers who destroy ecosystems can be 
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certified quickly. Next. We are losing natural 

allies as biodiversity crisis steepens. 

Recently, we learned that almost half the world's 

species are in decline globally, not just rare 

species but also common ones are plummeting. And 

many birds help with best control. Next.

The earth is heating up. If we don't 

make radical changes quickly, it's predicted that 

a domino effect will occur creating a world too 

hot for human occupation. Next. Critical 

ecosystems that store carbon and much of our 

biological heritage are crumbling under organic 

(audio interference.)

Back to Jenny Tucker's comment, she 

said we do take the recommendations seriously. 

But she also questioned the ten-year waiting 

period NOSB suggested between conversion and 

certification. However, the NOP has reported to 

implement the recommendation by capturing NOSB's 

intent if not exact wording. Next.

They should move the NOSB's 
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recommendation to the land requirements part of 

the rule and/or change the wording so that it's 

similar to what we have with the prohibited 

substances. So one suggestion we have for new 

language could be this, that any field or farm 

parcel that is to be sold as organic must have 

had no conversion of a native ecosystem as 

defined by the NOSB's recommendation or if 

converted have waited three years after a harvest 

of the crop. Next.

The NOP should publish this as 

proposed regulation, gather public comment on it, 

and make some adjustments and finalize it. The 

NOP should do what's right for biological 

diversity, next, right for cooling the planet, 

next, and right for the organic community. Thank 

you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your presentation. Logan has a question for you.

MEMBER PETREY: I do. Thank you. 

Yeah, especially with the organic initiation 
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coming on, a lot of the land is going to be 

transitioned. And I'm sure farmers are 

potentially looking all the avenues there.

I've actually transitioned land and 

have gone on land behind -- it was actually behind 

production. It was not native ecosystem. And 

so that's kind of -- sometimes you get in those 

types of areas and you're wondering what is 

native ecosystem.

It was actually land that was already 

going to be cut. But I think there's a 

misconception that it's easy to go in behind 

trees and farm. It is very, very difficult and 

very expensive.

And I almost -- through my experience 

would almost rather take in conventional land and 

transition it. Have three years of cover crop 

building, things like that, and then go in behind 

that because the breakdown of roots is -- it takes 

a lot. So if you go in right immediately 

afterwards, like I said, it's quite expensive.
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It steals a lot of the nitrogen from 

-- trying to build that soil up can be very 

challenging. So it's interesting that that is 

the perception. And I understand why because it 

seems like it.

But when you go through it, it would 

be nice to be able to educate people on the 

expenses of that and having people understand how 

hard that can be. I don't know how to get that 

done. But if some kind of financial analysis 

could be done on just farms that have gone through 

that to kind of show farmers, no, look, you're 

actually better off sitting here waiting.

It's already developed. Then 

developing a new piece which is expensive when 

you take out a lot of trees, then there's going 

to be shifts in topography. There's going to be 

a lot of shifts there and you're still breaking 

down those roots.

It takes a lot of nitrogen to be able 

to meet the requirements. Anyways, so that's 
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just my experience on that. I know the 

perception is it's easy to go in one year after 

that.

But I do think there may be some 

issues of natural ecosystem versus tree 

production and trying to distinguish those as 

well. So I guess that's more of a comment of 

mine. But I appreciate you bringing it up.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Logan. 

Javier has a question for you.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Hi, Jo Ann. Thank 

you for what you do. And I love the way you help 

the community on the ecosystems, farming with 

Mother Nature. So I guess by increasing the 

amount of growers, organic farming in the near 

future, it seems that way which is great, do you 

think maybe different ways farming not in a way 

that is the way you want perhaps myself like with 

ecosystems are very diversified should not be 

organic?

And I'll give you an example. Maybe 
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a control environment of growing food, do you 

think that's different and should be called 

differently than organic because it doesn't have 

the ecosystem that you're very passionate about 

it and myself? What do you feel about it? How 

do you feel? Do you think it's also going to 

perhaps limit new farmers that don't have access 

to these ecosystems that are beautiful and more 

natural to not enter into an organic production 

business?

MS. BAUMGARTNER: Yeah. Well, two 

things. Thank you, Logan, for bringing that up 

about the forestry. I agree with you. It is 

really expensive.

But this recommendation by the NOSB 

was to protect all kinds of native ecosystems. 

And we know a lot of native prairies taken out of 

production and put into organic right away. And 

that's super easy to do.

So there's a continuum of what's easy 

and hard. It would be great to be able to educate 
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the organic community that taking out a forest is 

really not worth it and it's not good for the 

native ecosystem. It's not good for the bottom 

line. That would be a great to do.

Javier, yes, I know there's a 

conference coming up this fall in our area here 

in California that's going to talk about 

vertically integrated organic where it's going to 

be hydroponic stacked upon hydroponic and that's 

organic. It seems like a stretch to me. I know, 

though, that we have worked for years to help the 

organic community understand that biodiversity 

conservation is part of the role.

And in 2016, the NOP agreed and they 

published guidance on that. And in there, it 

says that you have to conserve biodiversity. And 

so what these hydroponic vertically integrated 

folks could do is also have some flowers or 

something that's supporting some pollinators on 

the outskirts of their property.

And I think the NOP would give them a 
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pass on that. I mean, it would be better than 

nothing. But in any situation, growers can 

encourage biodiversity.

And they get benefits from it. As 

soon as you bring in flowers, not only do you 

bring in the pollinators, but you bring in the 

beneficial insects. And if you bring in 

structure like hydros, you're going to also bring 

in beneficial birds that can help with pest 

control. There's a million different ways that 

-- or maybe not a million, but lots of different 

ways in which growers can benefit from supporting 

nature.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have a question 

for you.

MS. BAUMGARTNER: We also need a 

bigger nature. Like, if we destroy -- if the 

organic community is destroying the native 

ecosystems that are supporting nature, they can't 

always live on a farm. They often -- these 

beneficial birds and beneficial insects are 
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living in native ecosystems part of their life 

cycle.

And if we are as a community are 

destroying that, it doesn't make sense. And 

especially when the NOSB has already spoken. 

Let's figure out how we can move this regulation 

forward.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jo Ann, I have a 

question for you. That is what is the data on 

how much land has been converted that was native 

ecosystem to organic?

MS. BAUMGARTNER: Yeah, I would love 

to get that information. The USDA at one point 

was interested in doing a survey but then they 

backed out of it for some reason. Maybe the NOSB 

could request that and we would get further. 

That would be really helpful, not just here in 

the U.S. but worldwide.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. It is 

a really big statement to correlate organic with 

deforestation. So I hesitate to say that really 
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loudly when we have no data on it.

Second question is where in OFPA do 

you suggest we look to change the required threeyear transition? And what has your group done 

with the farm bill to change that? OFPA's the 

law. We don't change OFPA.

MS. BAUMGARTNER: So I do know organic 

producers who have taken out forest systems. I 

don't know a lot of them. I also have spoken 

with or conversed with organic certifiers who 

tell me they've seen native ecosystems taken out.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're --

MS. BAUMGARTNER: And there's 

articles about it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- short of time. 

So I would like data if you have it. Anecdotes 

don't get us very far. And we have a big problem 

with companies saying, we don't think organic is 

safe because the Wild Farm Alliance -- a safe bet 

for sustainable because the Wild Farm Alliance 

said it deforests native ecosystems.
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(Simultaneous speaking.)

MS. BAUMGARTNER: I don't know where 

-- I'm sorry, Nate. I don't know where that came 

from.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure.

MS. BAUMGARTNER: But we do have -- I 

have never -- I really try to hold our integrity 

high. I've never spoken beyond what we know. We 

would love to get your help on getting that data.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We would love to 

get the data from you if you can. As you know, 

we have a very busy work agenda.

MS. BAUMGARTNER: No, not you. I 

meant if you could help us get the NOP or the 

USDA. They survey farmers periodically. We 

could add those questions in.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

appreciate your time today. Thank you.

MS. BAUMGARTNER: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up we have 

Paul Muller followed by Grayson Porter and then 
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Deborah Smith.

MR. MULLER: Good morning to all of 

you. Can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can. 

Please go ahead.

MR. MULLER: Thank you. This is the 

first NOSB meeting that I've participated in. 

I'm a farmer here in Northern California. Our 

farm is called Fully Belly.

We've been active farming here for 

nearly 45 years. So we're involved in the early 

evolution of organic in California. In all of 

those years, I think our learning curve has been 

focused on how to do a better job of managing 

soil.

And how do we begin to do a lot of 

what Jo Ann was talking about, incorporate the 

ecosystem services that I think the consumers who 

buy organic. The supporters of organic around 

the world are understanding that organic has in 

a its sense and in its history all the focus on 
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regeneration and creating regenerative 

agriculture. I have a few concerns.

One is I think we are losing and 

ceding ground to the whole notion of regenerative 

agriculture. And I think it's a serious issue. 

It's happening because I think the USDA has never 

really taken organic quite seriously.

Nate said that OFPA is a law. We 

don't change the law. But this group, all of you 

are intimately involved in influencing the 

direction of the Organic Food Production Act. 

And that's the role I think was set up for you 

when this law was created.

I would like to speak directly to the 

fact that I think there was a misstep made when 

hydroponics was allowed to be certified as 

organic. It was certainly something Jo Ann 

mentioned. It was something that Javier was 

talking about there in that there is a confusion.

And I think it is when you stack 

controlled atmosphere systems one on top of the 
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other and you create the facilities that are 

being created, you can't -- you're not providing 

ecosystem services. You're focusing on water 

retention or water use efficiencies, other things 

that aren't in fact the focus of what an organic 

system is. And I think all of you need to begin 

to step back and think about the damage that's 

done when we begin to water down systems and call 

them organic when, in fact, they're not soilbased and they're not done with the intention of 

a whole system -- ecosystem thinking.

I'm hoping that we can also maybe 

think about what happens when a certifier -- my 

certifier believes that those -- its job is to 

enforce the organic rule. And the organic rule 

says now that hydroponics is allowed. I would 

like the freedom to choose a certified who would 

choose not to certify organic hydroponic.

And allow me the freedom to do that. 

I think there are a lot of growers who are 

frustrated with certifiers who seem to be passive 
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in their criticism of hydroponics or fully 

accepting in their willingness to certify 

hydroponics. I think there are many certifiers 

who feel like they're capable of understanding 

how there is a system there that's equivalent in 

any way to soil-based systems. And in that 

regard, there are a lot of frustrated growers 

here in California with the decisions that had 

been made around hydroponics.

I think hydroponics -- this is not an 

attack on hydroponics. This is a concern about 

organic hydroponic production. And I think this 

issue will come back to you many, many, many times 

in the future because I think it threatens the 

ability and credibility of all of organic.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate 

your comments today. Dilip has a question for 

you.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Paul. 

Really appreciate your comments. And I am 

actually wondering you brought a very debatable 
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issue on organic hydroponics. And I have a very 

limited knowledge so far. How many organic 

hydroponics grow or have been certified? Do you 

have any data or statistics about this in your 

area or around the nation?

MR. MULLER: I don't have any specific 

numbers there. I think there are some very large 

berry growers. The berry industry in this 

country had dominated by growers who grow using 

containers.

They won't call it hydroponic. But 

in fact what they're doing is using a soil like 

or an inert medium. And they're dripping 

nutrient solutions to that plant.

And I think as you understand the 

complexity of soil as we've been studying for 

more than 40 years here on our farm, we're 

beginning just to begin to understand the 

dynamics in soil and how that dynamic is 

difficult to replicate with just nutrients alone. 

It'll grow plants that are healthy and 
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marketable. But in fact it will not be 

equivalent.

The other piece that is difficult 

there and I don't know the exact numbers. But 

there are new operations coming into the 

hydroponic organic market that I believe are 

resting their credibility as organic producers on 

the credibility that we've worked to establish 

for so many years with healthy crops grown and 

healthy soil and trying to provide the ecosystem 

services of a whole system.

It is a place-based, land-based system 

that is deeply connected to the community here. 

And that's not that a hydroponic facility is not 

going to have that. But in fact, it's missing 

the critical component of how we manage the 

ecosystem of our soil and the larger ecosystem 

that is, in fact, one system.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

MR. MULLER: I don't have those 

numbers.
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MEMBER NANDWANI: Sure. No worries.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

you so much, Paul. Next up, do we have Grayson 

Porter? If no Grayson Porter, then we're going 

to move on to Deborah Smith followed by Andy 

Huston and then Linley Dixon. So Deborah, please 

go ahead.

MS. ARSENAULT: Nate, we're also not 

seeing Deb on the line with us.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, I'm sorry if 

I missed that. All right. We're going to jump 

to Andy Huston followed by Linley Dixon and then 

Mollie Morrissette. Andy, please go ahead. Oh, 

and Andy, you are muted. Still muted, darn it.

MR. HUSTON: Can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: There we go.

MR. HUSTON: Hi, I'm Andy Huston. Me 

and my brother operate a 2,500 acre corn and 

soybeans production in west central Illinois. 

We're six generation on the same farm.

This is my first time doing any of 
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this. The reason I'm here with you today is 

we're located halfway between the Illinois and 

the Mississippi River. We have a huge issue with 

Asian carp.

We've come up with a process and

started a company called Captain Carp in which 

we're taking carp that we're getting from the 

Illinois DNR and we're processing them into a 

liquid fertilizer. And we're requesting to be 

able to have organic status. What I've seen --

the benefits that's coming out of our product is 

we're taking Asian carp that are basically 

feeding on algae and green material that are 

basically feeding on high nitrates that are 

coming off runoffs from our field that we farm 

here in Illinois.

And they're recapturing that nitrogen 

and fertilizer out of the algae. And then we're 

taking the fish and in our process turning them 

into a liquid fertilizer that it seems to be 

working tremendously well. Every time we run a 
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batch of fish, we run about 4,000 fish at a time 

and we turn that into about 900 gallons of the 

113 fertilizer taking out about 150 pounds of 

nitrogen that doesn't end up in the Gulf.

As far as I can see, it's a very green 

product. It doesn't take hardly any carbon to 

produce it. When we make a run for 900 gallons, 

we're probably using maybe about 7 gallons of LP 

and that's about all it takes. I don't know. 

I'm kind of nervous. I'm new at this. I'm a 

farm guy. So --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: You're doing 

great.

MR. HUSTON: I had to jump out of the 

combine to be with here with you guys today. But 

I don't know. I mean, everything that we've put 

this on this summer, we tried to gather as much 

data as we could.

We've seen some tremendous results in 

vegetables. We fed some soybeans on our farm. 
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We side dress corn on our farm. We're just in 

the process of doing our harvest now so that we 

don't have any yield data on that to see what 

it's done.

But just people that have used it on 

vegetables. We saw some people that had -- we 

didn't have any bad feedback. We had some 

individuals that grew tomato plants out here that 

were over eight and a half feet tall. And they 

were just cranking out tomatoes all summer long.

Personally, on some of the vegetables 

that I've used on my farm, it was pretty amazing 

how well it works. We're capturing humic acid 

when we're reclaiming the fish. We've had 52 

percent humic acid on our analysis sheet. So we 

really think this would make a great economic as 

far as the ecosystem fertilizer. And I think 

it'd make a great organic fertilizer.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. And 

thank you for joining us today and taking the 

time away from your farm. We have a couple of 
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questions for you from the Board. Rick, please 

go ahead.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Thanks, Andy. And 

I've read your submittal. How did you settle on 

potassium hydroxide? I've looked at other 

processes and some us grinding of fish and other 

things to liquefy them. I think there's been 

some concern and comments about potassium 

hydroxide itself as being a fair toxic compound. 

So are there other alternatives that you can use?

MR. HUSTON: Right now basically the 

way our process came up, we came up with this 

process. It kind of came out of COVID. We've 

been taking the fish and had been selling them to 

restaurants or been using parts of the fish for 

lobster bait.

When COVID kicked in, it kind of 

killed our whole business. There wasn't any 

place to go with it. That's when we kind of 

turned and looked toward fertilizer.

Our process is basically -- the 
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machine that we use to process the fish in was 

originally designed in case there was a mad cow 

outbreak they could bring this process to a 

feedlot and render the carcasses. So we've just 

been putting the carp in there as if they were 

the cattle and running the same process. And 

that's how we came up with it.

But the difference I've done organic 

growing in greenhouses and I've used fish 

emulsions. But the viscosity of this stuff is, 

like, mill. So it flows through emitters.

It's easy to mix in water. It's easy 

to put in sprayers. It was just a completely 

unique fish emulsion from anything else that I've 

seen.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: The reason I say 

that is in the subcommittee, there's a lot of 

discussion about the potassium hydroxide, not so 

much the process of fertilizer. I'm just 

wondering if there's anything that you can use 

that's already on a National List for that 
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process.

MR. HUSTON: I am not aware. My 

partner, Kevin Swim, he could probably answer 

that question a lot better than I can because 

he's more the science on it than what I am. I 

don't -- yeah, it's -- I know what you mean and 

I understand what you're saying.

From my understanding that this is the 

same process they use with seaweed when they turn 

it into fertilizer. And that was what made us 

think that we're just using fish versus using 

seaweed. And that's what we were -- that's kind 

of what we were going by or off of.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Thanks. I 

appreciate your comments and for being here. 

It's great. And I like your name, Captain Carp. 

So that's --

MR. HUSTON: Thank you.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: -- good too. 

Okay, thanks.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla has a 
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question for you.

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah, sort of along the

same lines. But I just was going to maybe try 

to put a finer point on it is that liquid fish 

products are already listed on the National List. 

There is an annotation that says that they can be 

adjusted with sulfuric acid, citric acid, or 

phosphoric acid. And so I guess that's my 

question is, is one of those suitable since 

they're already listed versus adding the 

potassium hydroxide?

MR. HUSTON: That would probably be -

- I probably have to talk with Kevin over that. 

If we could find a better and suitable way and it 

still works out the same, I'd be all for it. But 

right now, this is what -- we've applied for a 

patent for this process.

And so yeah, I understand where you're 

coming from. But from my understanding is this 

is basically just really sheer phosphate that 

we're putting in there for the most part. And 
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that's what dissolves the fish or basically 

liquefies them. So I guess I'm probably -- Kevin 

would probably be the best one to answer this 

question other than me. But I'm just -- you 

know.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, we thank 

you for your time today. If there's any followup information you have, write to Michelle --

MR. HUSTON: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- Arsenault. 

And we're, yeah, grateful to hear from farmers 

and love to hear from innovators. And so thanks 

for making time today.

MR. HUSTON: All right. Thank you 

very much. I hope everything works out well.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Appreciate you.

MR. HUSTON: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

up we have Linley Dixon followed by Mollie 

Morrissette and then Colehour Bondera. Linley, 

please go ahead.
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MS. DIXON: Hi, thank you. I'm 

Linley Dixon, the co-director of the Real Organic 

Project. And I have an organic vegetable farm 

in Colorado.

So I'd like to start by really 

applauding the CACS discussion document on 

organic and climate-smart. Just want to say 

great work for calling the organic movement to 

really attend to what is the greatest issue 

facing humanity. And we all have watched in 

disbelief in the organic community as USDA 

granted 2.8 billion dollars towards supposed 

climate-smart agriculture and even developing a 

marketplace for that while failing to reference 

the word, organic, as an already established 

market-based solution to climate change.

Instead of supporting organic 

farming, millions went to chemical companies. 

Bayer Monsanto, Cargill, ADM, Bunkie, Syngenta, 

Corteva all partner with junk food companies like 

PepsiCo, McDonald's, Nestle, the K-Pho (phonetic) 
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industries like Perdue, Hormel, Tyson, Corn 

Growers Association. I could go on and on.

You can't make this stuff up. If we 

trusted them to change, well, then problem solved 

since they're the biggest emitters. That's who's 

getting the money.

But these are the same companies that 

have been discrediting organic and lobbying to 

weaken it from the beginning. Everyone on this 

call and the greater organic movement knows that 

real organic agriculture is the best agriculture 

for a healthier climate in the future. But I had 

to add that little word real to the last sentence.

Otherwise, I'd be lying. When it 

comes to mitigating climate change, we clearly 

can't afford to trust companies that depend on 

the sale of chemicals to solve the problem. But 

we also can't afford to lie about organic.

The NOP has put the organic movement 

in a really uncomfortable position and it needs 

to change. Certified organic poultry production 
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as defined by the NOP is not climate-smart. And 

the OLPS is nowhere near fixing that problem.

Buildings with hundreds of thousands 

of birds that may or may not find their way to a 

tiny door with access to gravel concrete and bare 

dirt is not climate-smart. No wonder the 

regenerative agricultural movement is kicking our 

butt when it comes to inspiring young farmers. 

Unless we define maximum vegetation in the OLPS, 

we will institutionalize K-Pho egg production 

under the organic seal.

I'm reminded of the Edward Abbey 

quote, growth for the sake of growth is the 

ideology of the cancer cell. Growth for the sake 

of growth in organic will be the downfall of 

organic as the gold standard. And we will 

continue to see a rise in alternative labels.

Likewise, you've heard it today, 

certified organic hydroponic production is not 

climate-smart. And just because an industry 

front group claims water efficiency while 
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simultaneously trying to feed the nation from a 

desert, it's just Orwellian here. You can't just 

cherry pick -- instead of looking at the whole 

system, cherry pick these individual things. And 

when you have to buy everything for production 

from the pots, plastic weed barrier, the plastic 

irrigation tubes, the plastic overhead barrier, 

100 percent of the fertility for the crop -- it 

looks like I'm out of time. But --

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MS. DIXON: -- I could go on about 

this. How can all of these inputs be good for 

the climate? It's what I talk about every time 

I come. I've been coming for eight years twice 

a year. And it's the same thing.

So I just feel like we're in a 

situation where it's like if you can't beat them, 

join them. And we're giving the money to the 

wrong people. So I'm just begging the National 

Organic Program to stop making the farmers use 

the word real in front of the world organic and 
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we can all get busy farming again.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

Linley?

(No audible response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

your comments, Linley. Next up we have Mollie 

Morrissette, Colehour Bondera, and then Charlotte 

Vallaeys. But I'm actually not sure about 

Charlotte Vallaeys. So let's go with Mollie. 

Please go ahead.

MS. MORRISSETTE: Hi, I'm Mollie 

Morrissette. I'm a regulatory advisor and member 

of AAFCO which is the American Animal Feed 

Association and a consumer advisor for pet food 

-- safe pet food. Anyway, okay, I need to take 

a breath. Okay. Calm down. Okay, take a 

breath.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: You did that 

that.

MS. MORRISSETTE: USDA -- yeah.

(Laughter.)
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MS. MORRISSETTE: I've never done 

this before. So forgive me. Not on camera. 

Okay. USDA certified organic, those three words 

represent the epitome of superb pet food. The 

certification means that the ingredients and 

processes are third party audited, giving 

consumers confidence that what they buy is not 

only the best but also truly organic.

However, behind the reassuring USDA 

seal lies a patchwork of confusing and 

conflicting interpretations of certified organic 

pet food. So in essence, there are no reliable 

and consistent standards. What is happening is 

that USDA accredit certifying agents are using 

private standards to address the market demand 

for organic pet foods.

Some ACAs use the organic human food 

rule and others use the -- excuse me -- and others 

use the livestock feed rule to certify pet food 

while another ACA is certifying pet food using 

section 205.605, synthetic substances allowed for 
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use in organic livestock production rule as the 

basis to certify pet food. And another ACA 

certifies pet food under a combination of the 

human food and livestock feed rules.

And none of the ACAs I spoke with were 

aware of what the FDA human grade pet food and 

animal feed rule was or that it even existed. 

The problem is, is that if certifiers use human 

food standards and the pet food is manufactured 

in a pet food plant, once the human edible 

ingredients or additives enter a pet food plant, 

they are no longer by definition a human food 

ingredient or additive. And at that point, it 

is a feed grade pet food and is regulated under 

the FSMA animal feed rule.

This distinction is critical. For 

pet food to be certified under the AAFCO 

definition of the human grade pet food rule, it 

must be made to FDA human food standards and in 

a human food processing facility or it cannot 

make the human grade claim. It's not surprising 
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that ACA certifiers use their own interpretation 

of the law because historically there has been no 

--

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: The time runs 

fast. We really appreciate your comments today.

MS. MORRISSETTE: But I'm not done.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions from 

the Board for Mollie?

(No audible response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We understand 

that this is one of the hot issues of trying to 

figure out how to prioritize our next steps. So 

thank you for the information and joining us 

today.

MS. MORRISSETTE: Okay. You're 

welcome.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up is 

Colehour Bondera and then we'll have Zea 

Sonnabend and then Derek Rovey.

MR. BONDERA: Aloha, chair and NOSB 

members. Thank you for your service and taking 
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time to listen. My name is Colehour Bondera.

I represent Kanalani Ohana Farm, a 

small scale and diversified organic farm in 

Hawaii. Remember the healthiest decisions are 

based upon a strong foundation. Healthy roots 

grow in a healthy organic soil. I served on the 

NOSB from 2011 to 2016. I was chair of the policy 

development subcommittee, PDS, for several years.

PDS is a standing subcommittee and has 

been for decades. Let me remind you that the 

policy and procedures manual states, quote, the 

policy development subcommittee provides 

clarification and proposed changes for NOSB 

internal policies and procedures as needed in 

collaboration with the NOP. PDS in collaboration 

with the NOP also updates and revises the NOSB 

policy and procedures manual and member guide, 

unquote.

We are broadly on the same page since 

you all have agreed to follow these guidelines. 

NOSB is a constantly developing and growing 
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organic entity with roots in a strong and secure 

foundation (audio interference.) My concern is 

that the PDS does not seem to be engaged in 

necessary duties. At minimum, I would like to 

hear a report at each meeting from the PDS that, 

quote, no changes were made or are proposed to 

the PPM by the PDS, unquote, for example.

Such time is not designated in this 

meeting's agenda. That is but one example of how 

PDS should be affecting the NOSB meetings by 

being included in the agenda on a consistent 

basis. The NOP can advise regarding the agenda. 

But collaboration must occur with the NOSB 

agreeing to all aspects.

Another example is the fact that we 

have just experienced significant changes in 

public meetings due to a pandemic. It is 

necessary that the NOSB PPM state what would 

happen to meetings and proxies in such a 

situation when it happens again. What is the 

alternative meeting policy?
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That could and should be drafted and 

reviewed and discussed in that order in my humble 

opinion by the PDS. Regarding the PPM and the 

agenda since it is stated that public comment can 

be included in NOSB meetings, I hereby request 

that live meetings again include live testimony 

from attendees. Otherwise, why attend?

Having the virtual option before a 

meeting for those who cannot attend is fine. But 

a hybrid is most appropriate, even if it means 

that a meeting is four instead of three days long. 

Another thought is that the PPM states that a 

minority view can be provided when a subcommittee 

is not in unanimity.

From my experience, that was one of 

the most useful ways to understand the whole 

picture if I was or was not on the subcommittee. 

NOSB members, please try to use this venue so 

that the public knows perspectives considered and 

can see the whole of decisions made and voting 

rationale. POLA in handling is an excellent 
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example of this.

The representation and to do a good 

job, the healthiest decisions are based upon a 

strong foundation. Together, let us maintain 

that healthy soil foundation as OFPA provided and 

the PPM must ensure. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

joining us today. Any questions from the Board?

(No audible response.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

appreciate your testimony. Next up we have Zea 

Sonnabend. Is Zea on the line?

MS. SONNABEND: Yes, can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please 

go ahead.

MS. SONNABEND: Okay. Boy, I just 

made it home in time because that 14 and 13 times 

really messed me up on the time change. So 

anyway, I just want -- for those of you who don't 

know me, I am from Fruitilicious Farm in 

Watsonville, California. I'm retired from CCOF 
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now. I worked for over 30 years at CCOF. And I 

was on the NOSB from 2012 to 2017.

I want to just say very briefly 

something about the crop sunset which is I'm very 

happy that you haven't decided to take anything 

off because there hasn't been any new evidence 

presented. And many of us organic farmers rely 

on those materials. Second, I want to say just 

one thing about the carbon dioxide petition.

I wrote a petition on behalf of CCOF 

right after the Arthur Harvey lawsuit for carbon 

dioxide for a storage of grain to replace oxygen. 

And there's a mistake in the evaluation of it 

which says that non-synthetic sources are not 

available due to lack of infrastructure at

ethanol plants. My petition which I think is 

posted but I'm not positive.

Because it was never actually acted 

upon shows that carbon dioxide does come from 

non-synthetic sources sometimes. There are 

actually mines from underground deposits of 
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carbon dioxide. And the carbon dioxide out of 

ethanol plants has been through some many 

chemical processes, it may or may not be nonsynthetic or synthetic. That would have to be 

evaluated separately.

But the problem with carbon dioxide 

that's non-synthetic is you can't source a 

specifically non-synthetic kind. So I worked 

with a carbon dioxide supplier in writing that 

petition. And I have, I think, a location of the 

actual mines. There are about eight of them in 

the United States.

Anyway, that shouldn't influence your 

decision. That's just a fact. Okay. Mostly, I 

want to talk about having NOSB technical support.

As someone who had helped the NOSB 

informally since the very first board, Gene Kahn 

and Craig Weakley. And then I was on the Board. 

So I know exactly how much work it is.

And I think it's really important that 

you get NOSB technical support. However, the 
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technical support has to be people who have some 

concept of organic in order to be able to have 

any sort of intelligent evaluation of 

alternatives, for instance. And within the USDA, 

that is just not happening.

So I really think that they should --

and I'm assuming although it doesn't say that 

it's paid. But you should hire someone from 

outside of the current USDA. And that person

should have some organic experience.

People like organic inspectors who are 

independent of organizations or OMRI advisory 

council members, or other people have the 

necessary experience to evaluate the science as 

well as know from the organic perspective what is 

and isn't appropriate to look at. So thank you 

very much. And I wish I could join you, but my 

harvest is this week. I'm not going to be able 

to come.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, we 

appreciate you making the time today. Thanks for 
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phoning in. Javier, please go ahead.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Hi, Zea. So happy to 

see you, and I'm glad you made it to talk to us. 

Zea, you're obviously someone that the committee 

and myself deeply admire what you've done on 

serving on this Board. But I have a question for 

you. Do you think the NOSB and the NOP by not 

having the technical support available for some 

people that may not be -- that are part of the 

industry as myself but do not have the skills to 

serve in a better way for the NOSB? It's not --

it's prohibiting the NOSB Board being a little 

more diverse and not perhaps representing a more 

open diversification of individuals serving on 

the Board do you think?

MS. SONNABEND: Yes, absolutely 

because small growers can't really apply to the 

Board even because the workload is so intense 

that you really have to take a lot of time away 

from your farm to do it. And so that means the 

farmer seats will mostly be applied for by the 
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larger growers who can spare a person because 

they're covered back at the ranch. I had a great 

deal of trouble when I was on the Board, and I 

had started my firm the same year I got appointed 

to the Board in 2012.

And I had a great deal of trouble with 

the fall meeting in particular because as a fruit 

grower spring isn't our slow time but fall is our 

slow time. And so -- but any number of Board 

members over the years have had this problem. 

And so those who have either friends or resources 

to hire to help are better. This would formalize 

it so that anybody who needs the help because 

also doing the research requires a certain amount 

of computer proficiency and ability to know what 

you're looking for because some of the subject 

matter, like, if you googled humic acid for 

instance which is one thing that's up before you, 

you would get millions and millions of hits.

But only a few of those would be 

targeted for the information we want about what 
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happens to humic acid in the soil or does it have 

negative effects on crops. So that research 

needs someone with experience both in research 

and in organic to know what they're looking for. 

And so that prevents people who are sort of good 

farmers but laypeople towards any sort of 

research inhibits them being able to do it well.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Rick has a

question for you, Zea.

MS. SONNABEND: Mm-hmm.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yeah, Zea. One of 

the questions that's come up when we've talked 

about this is obviously conflict of interest 

where you have someone helping a Board member 

that might be paid by a group that has something 

before the Board. So I was curious to get your 

thoughts about that because it's been one of the 

things that's caused us a lot of consternation as 

we've talked about human capital and helping the 

Board.

MS. SONNABEND: Right. Well, to me, 
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it's the same as any grower who uses a material 

might have a conflict of interest before the 

Board from one point of view. But it's been 

decided that just using a material is not a 

conflict of interest. If you were to hire 

someone who made the material that was before the 

Board, then, of course, that's bad.

But that's why I'm suggesting there 

are plenty of people out there. And I am not 

offering my services because I'm pretty much 

retired. And I used to say before every meeting 

that CCOF has growers use every single thing on 

the National List and more. So we don't have an 

interest in one material over another, just that 

there's a good range of tools.

Anyway, people like inspectors who are 

independent and may work for several 

organizations and know -- not all of them but 

some of them know enough to do that research. I 

mentioned OMRI council members, there are about 

a dozen or more people who are scientists but 
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they have a long history of looking at organic 

materials. And they have strict conflict of 

interest policies.

And any number of other people out 

there, consultants who work for lots of growers, 

have lots of things, there are enough people out 

there. My experience with the other departments 

of the USDA has been less than ideal from an 

organic point of view I'll just say. I mean, you 

can read some of the TRs they used to do.

They're very weak. You can read. 

And it has not been -- I mean, unless it's changed 

a lot, it has not been really satisfactory to 

have the organic lens that you need to look at 

things.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yeah, but I was 

specifically talking about someone who might have 

an agenda item or comments about something, 

having someone that was paid by them to help 

someone on the Board which I think is different 

than what you're talking about --
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(Simultaneous speaking.)

MS. SONNABEND: Yeah, I mean, that has 

been the case historically right along. Many, 

many Board members in the past have had 

colleagues or friends or they represented an 

organization where they have other people put 

things before the Board. And I think you just, 

like you do now, ask for disclosure of the 

affiliation.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. I'm curious 

--

(Simultaneous speaking.)

MS. SONNABEND: I mean, if you care 

that if someone is -- but I'm assuming that you're 

-- you or the USDA or the NOP is planning to hire 

somebody or several people and they'll vet them. 

And so they can disclose what it is if they're 

helping a Board member.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Zea. 

Next up -- actually, folks, let's take a break. 
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Let's come back in ten minutes, so 40 after the 

hours. Shake it out a little bit. See you all 

in ten minutes.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 3:29 p.m. and resumed at 

3:40 p.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up is going 

to be Derek Rovey.

Derek, are you there?

MR. ROVEY: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Excellent. All 

right.

MR. ROVEY: Good. Hey, good 

afternoon, everybody.

So, my name is Derek Rovey. I'm with 

Rovey Seed Company. We buy and sell food grade, 

organic, non-GMO corn in Illinois and Nebraska 

facilities.

I'm here just to kind of talk real 

quick about the proposal to include acres for 

certain crops on producers' organic certificates.
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So, from our standpoint, I think it 

would be a great idea. We're already starting 

to see that with some certifiers the last couple 

of years. I don't know if that's a requirement 

for them, but they are seeing that on some 

organization certificates.

So, I think, from an audit standpoint, 

a couple of times we've seen some confusion by 

the auditor, maybe asking why some of those have 

those on there and some do not. So, I think, 

from a standardization standpoint, I think it 

would be good just to have kind of a rule, I 

guess, that those should be on there.

From a buyer's standpoint, you know, 

I think it would help us. We contract, 

generally, straight to the grower to buy our corn 

to come into us. And we do contract acres. We 

also do bushel acres.

So, I think, by having that on there, 

that would give us just one more check, just to 

make sure that they're not overselling to us, you 
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know, and selling us something that's not 

organic.

One question I would have on that, if 

it would end up being a rule that those would be 

included on there, is maybe how that would be 

looked at, say, something came up and something 

ended up being fraudulent. In other words, a 

grower sold us more corn in this case than what 

he had produced. Maybe we just missed it; I 

don't know, human error. Would the fault, then, 

come back on us or would it go to the grower? Or 

how would that work? I think that would be 

something that would need to be addressed on 

that.

So, that was really all I had to say, 

unless you had questions.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. Questions 

for Derek?

Well, first of all, thank you, Derek. 

Thank you for joining us today. We appreciate 

your time.
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Kyla has a question for you.

MEMBER SMITH: I guess my question is, 

as the end user, right, you're contracting -- if 

I have whatever, 100 acres, of something --

MR. ROVEY: Sure.

MEMBER SMITH: -- it has 100 acres of 

the thing on my certificate, what's to prevent me 

from giving -- and I'm not overselling to you or 

overcontracting to you, but I go ahead and I do 

the same thing to a different end user. How does 

that get flagged? How would that work out?

MR. ROVEY: So, I'm not quite 

understanding. So, the bushels coming into me 

look okay, but, then, if they're also selling to 

someone else --

MEMBER SMITH: Yes, because I'm 

buying from somewhere else or growing on, you 

know, non-organic land, but I'm passing that as 

organic. But my 100 acres looks good on paper 

to you and my 100 acres looks good to someone 

else.
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MR. ROVEY: Right. So, you have 

multiple buyers for that 100 acres. So, we're 

buying 50 acres, but they oversell to both. Yes, 

I mean, from the information we would have, yes, 

we would know that. So, you're right.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Derek?

(No response.)

I have sort of a logistics question 

for you, Derek.

MR. ROVEY: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So, typically, 

inspectors work in regions and they'll do 

clusters of inspections. Usually, if they're 

independents, they're working for folks, 

different certifiers --

MR. ROVEY: Sure.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- in, say, your 

neck of the woods, but doing a suite of different 

handlers and producers.

In that process, when they get to 
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looking at the different certificates and who 

sold what to whom, it seems like that's where the 

red flag would be most effective, saying that, 

"We've inspected these three elevators. They all 

bought from Farmer X and he only had enough to 

sell to one."

MR. ROVEY: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So, really, more 

on inspectors necessarily than on buyers, though, 

if a farmer is super sloppy, it might be helpful 

to buyers as well.

MR. ROVEY: That's true.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: But would you 

agree with that?

MR. ROVEY: And I would say so, but I 

don't know how well an auditor would keep notes 

in regards to all that. So, you know, for us, 

they may look at our certificates and we've 

bought corn from, let's just say, a dozen 

growers. Then, one of those -- you know, they'll 

probably start recognizing names, you're right, 
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but how many of each, how many acres or bushels 

of each one went to different ones, I don't know 

if they can record that or it might just be a 

mental note. I guess I don't know.

They may see it and say, "My gosh, 

I've seen this grower and I know he's sold more 

than what I think is reasonably producible on 

this amount of acres." So, how would that work 

then? Can an auditor, then, trigger an audit on 

that grower? I guess I'm not sure how that 

process would work.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, they can 

definitely relay it to the certifier.

MR. ROVEY: Okay, yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim has a 

question for you.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes, thanks, Nate.

And thank you, Derek, for your 

comments. I really do appreciate it.

Maybe from a clarification 

standpoint, because you said that some of the 
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farmers that you're buying from do have it listed 

on their certificates --

MR. ROVEY: Uh-hum.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: -- and some don't. 

What do you do with that information today?

MR. ROVEY: Right now, I don't do a 

lot. I mean, we'll kind of check a little bit, 

just to see sometimes, if a grower is bringing in 

a lot, maybe just kind to back-check, make sure 

it kind of makes sense, if you will.

But since it's not really standard 

now, probably don't check it that much, I guess. 

If we would, if it was standardized, I guess if 

I knew it was something -- and I don't know if it 

would be included on there as a standard. I 

guess it would depend on, is that auditor going 

to be asking for that or try to make some kind of 

comparisons, or does it fall on us?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Uh-hum.

MR. ROVEY: We do look at that from 

sometimes, but it's a minority on the 
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certificates that we have in now. So, it's not 

a lot.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. So, then, 

from your perspective, as it stands today, the 

end user just, from your perspective, it's just 

maybe a litmus test as needed?

MR. ROVEY: Yes. Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay.

MR. ROVEY: I would say yes. And not 

all of our contracts are acre-based. You know, 

generally, most of them are, but there are times 

when we go out -- maybe a buyer prefers just to 

sell bushels because he's maybe selling to more 

producers. Or maybe the larger producers are 

selling more bushels because they have more 

customers that they sell to. It tends to be, it 

seems like from us, the smaller producers, we 

might be buying all of their production of 

organic yellow corn or white, or whatever.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Uh-hum. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 
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really appreciate your time today, Derek. Thanks 

for joining us.

MR. ROVEY: Yes, thanks for having me 

today.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

Esteve Giraud, followed by Karla Hernandez, and 

then Eve Kaplan-Walbrecht.

MS. GIRAUD: Thank you.

So, my name is Esteve Giraud. I'm an 

Assistant Research Professor at the Swette Center 

for Sustainable Food Systems at Arizona State 

University.

Thank you very much for hosting this 

hearing session. We appreciate the discussion 

on organic climate-smart agriculture and we 

support NOSB's remark that organic farmers lead 

the way with the implementation of plant-based 

farm practices and should automatically qualify 

for any climate-smart label when the USDA 

codifies the terms used.

On Tuesday next week, on October 25th, 
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the Natural Resources Defense Council, NRDC, will 

release a report on which NRDC and Californians 

for Pesticide Reform, and also, the Swette Center 

have been working together for the past three 

years. In this report, we make the climate 

health and economic case for expanding organic 

agriculture. And it includes a whole chapter 

dedicated to the benefits of organic agriculture 

for climate, relevant citing scientific research 

on the topic.

Consistently with this research, I 

would like to add that organics' prohibition of 

most synthetic pesticides should be elevated to 

improve consumers' awareness of organic climatesmart benefits. Indeed, insecticides and 

fungicides are designed to kill the living 

organisms whose activity is critical for carbon 

sequestration.

Earthworms are one example of many. 

Earthworms help forming and maintaining healthy 

soils and mitigate the formation of carbon 
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troughs in the soil. A large body of research 

has shown the dangerous effects of glyphosates on 

earthworms.

Research also shows that, overall, 

soil microbial activity decreases significantly 

and proportionately to the amount of pesticides 

applied to the soil.

At the manufacturing stage, 

pesticides require mining and land destruction, 

which generates greenhouse gas emission, and 

thereto, may affect soil carbon storage capacity.

We need life-cycle analysis that looks 

at the climate impacts of pesticides on all 

stages of their lives. After being used, 

pesticides end up in water streams and their 

toxicity of aquatic life increases in warming 

weather, which is another concerning factor 

considering climate change.

To demonstrate the efficacy of organic 

farming for climate, future research could 

further integrate the effects of synthetic 
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pesticides in comparative crop life-cycle 

analysis.

Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate 

your comments.

Any questions from the Board?

(No response.)

I have a quick question for you. Do 

you have any suggestions on how the organic 

community can better get the word out to 

consumers about both the lack of pesticides and 

herbicides, as far as a human health 

consideration, but also its relationship to 

climate change?

MS. GIRAUD: Yes. Thank you for this 

question.

The effects, again, on soil of 

pesticides is really, really high. And then the 

fertilizers' effect on greenhouse gases is pretty 

well-known. There are several things that I 

think around them.
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When it comes to consumers' messaging, 

focus groups could be helpful to really test kind 

of the knowledge of the average consumer on the 

climate impacts of pesticides and fertilizers.

But I think, adding to the list that 

you were proposing in the document that you 

shared with us, the role of pesticides for 

climate I think is important. It's well-known, 

obviously, that from the consumers' perspective, 

the pesticides effects humans have. They can 

always make the case with climate. And so, 

there's more education that needs to be done 

here. But it's, yes, a focus group would also 

help test the water; that I wouldn't mind.

Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

really appreciate that.

MS. GIRAUD: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

joining us today.

And next up, we have Karla Hernandez, 
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followed by Eve Kaplan-Walbrecht, and then 

Jefferson Dean.

Karla, if you're there, please go 

ahead.

MS. HERNANDEZ: Hi. Yes. Hi. My 

name is Karla Hernandez. I'm the Supplier and 

Organics Compliance Manager at Soli Organic, 

formerly known as Shenandoah Growers. Soli 

Organic is the Nation's largest organic soilbased growing system of fresh culinary herbs in 

the United States.

This is my first time participating in 

the NOSB oral comments. So, thank you for having 

me.

I recognize, currently, that the NOSB 

is considering elemental sulfur and its use in 

slug and snail bait. I would like to highlight 

a future request that we have of the Board.

Soli Organic supports the continued 

use of elemental sulfur for fungicide and soil 

management. We respectfully ask the Board to 
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consider the burning of elemental sulfur as an 

approved method for plant disease control in 

greenhouse and indoor growing.

Currently, there's very few options 

for preventing the spread of treatment for 

patterning mildew in organic greenhouse and 

indoor systems. We're limited to a few organic 

fungicides that are only partially effective. In 

addition, the design of our biovertical growing 

systems greatly reduces the ability of us 

spraying for patterning mildew. We do our best 

to optimize the climate, plant spacing, and 

overall conditions to reduce patterning mildew 

growth, but are still in need of an alternative.

The burning of elemental sulfur is 

currently not allowed for plant disease control 

because of its byproduct, sulfur dioxide. 

However, the main byproduct is sulfuric acid. 

The byproduct released from burning elemental 

sulfur at the temperature of 119 to 159 degrees 

Celsius is sulfuric acid, which acts as a biocide 
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and no oxides will be released at this 

temperature. This would eliminate the concern 

for sulfur dioxide to be released into the 

atmosphere.

A similar method is currently allowed, 

and it's allowed under the plant or soil 

amendment, but we would like for this method to 

also be allowed for plant disease in Section 

205-601(i) of the National List.

In addition, Soli Organic fully 

supports the continued use of sticky traps and 

barriers. This is a primary pest control method 

currently. Our growers identify which pests are 

present and we continue to monitor using these 

sticky traps, and with that, they select which 

(audio interference) tools are necessary. So, 

at this time, we don't see any other provable 

options to replace the sticky trap.

In addition, one other comment that we 

would like to make is that Soli Organic would 

like for the Board to consider an alternative use 
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and method of NOx synthetic ammonia and extract 

in organic agriculture. This fertilizer is 

produced and utilized currently in our container 

production system. Our position is to 

capture -- our project would capture the ammonia 

produced by poultry plants, which would reduce 

emissions. And that ammonia would be dissolved 

in water to produce ammonia to be converted to 

nitrate and nitrite in a biological air washer. 

The final product would actually be 2.5 percent 

nitrogen that would be used and not ammonia 

extract.

Soli Organic also supports IFP's 

written comments submitted to the docket, and we 

thank the Board for your consideration of our 

comments.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It is a pleasure 

to hear from you folks, and we really appreciate 

you taking the time to join us. Great work.

Any questions from the Board?

(No response.)
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All right. Thank you.

Next up, we have Eve Kaplan-Walbrecht, 

followed by Jefferson Dean, and then Ken 

Dallmier.

There we go.

All right, the floor is yours, Eve.

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Okay. Thank 

you.

And this is also my first time 

commenting to the Board. So, thank you for 

having me.

And I actually will be traveling to 

the meeting in Sacramento. So, I hope to meet 

some of you in person next week.

And with my husband, we run Garden of 

Eve Organic Farm. We're in Riverhead, New York, 

which is on the east end of Long Island in 

Riverhead. We've been doing this about 20 years. 

Organic, we've been certified since we started in 

probably about 2002.

And I just wanted to focus on a couple 
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of things that I feel strongly about that are 

before the Board.

One of them is the livestock and 

poultry standard. We are, actually, mainly a 

vegetable farm, but for almost the whole time 

we've been farming we have had a large stock of 

chickens for eggs, pastured laying hens.

And so, I know firsthand the immense 

costs and challenges that go with pasturing your 

poultry when you have them outside. There's a 

lot of hawks. You know, we lose birds. The 

foxes are (audio interference). We actually have 

bald eagles now on our farm, which is kind of 

exciting, but definitely a challenge.

And for quite a while, over a decade, 

we had livestock guard dogs, and then we would 

get calls, when we had big storms in the middle 

of the night, from the police who picked them up 

on the golf courses nearby when they would decide 

to run away, and lots of challenges.

So, I really encourage you to require 
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throughout true outdoor access to level the 

playing field. This is what consumers want. 

It's what animal rights people want. It's what 

farmers want. And there's no reason not to do 

it. But we just would like to see a level playing 

field for those of us who treat animals like 

animals.

And we'd like to see clear standards 

put into place as soon as possible and 

implementation time of three years, a shorter 

implementation time that's reasonable for 

everyone.

I also see that the biodegradable, 

bio-based mulch film is on the agenda for this 

meeting. That is something that traditionally 

has not been allowed by our certifier, which is 

Northeast Organic Farming Association, NOFA, New 

York.

However, it is something that we would 

like to use, and there are many other both noncertified farms in our area who use it and, also, 
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certified farms in other areas who are using it. 

It's my understanding that their certifiers are 

allowing it.

With the cost of labor being what it 

is right now in New York and other states, it's 

very, very difficult to have time. So, plastic 

is creating a huge amount of waste for the 

landfills. And I think I did see that there's a 

lot of anti-plastic comments in the written 

comments section. I'm not sure if they're all 

based towards the plastic biodegradable mulch, 

but, as a grower, that is something that is an 

important tool for us (audio interference.)

Thank you for your time.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

commenting, and welcome. Thanks for making the 

time to speak to us.

Any questions for Eve from the Board?

Brian has a question for you.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. Thanks, Eve. 

Two quick questions.
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One is, what are the crops that you 

use plastic for and that you might be -- I'm 

assuming that, if it was available, that you 

would switch to the biodegradable products. Just 

curious about what crops those would be.

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Correct, we 

would switch to the biodegradable. Mainly, we're 

using it in the springtime for onions. We grow 

a lot of onions and scallions, where it's 

very -- you know, weed control is very difficult. 

And mid-season, just for the hot weather crops, 

like cucumbers, tomatoes, and peppers, sometimes 

eggplant.

But we don't do all our cropping with 

plastic. It's really like the early crops, the 

onions and some things that just need warmer 

soil.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay. Thanks.

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Thanks, Brian. 

We'll see you in California.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 
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questions for Eve?

Logan has a question for you.

MEMBER PETREY: Hi. Thanks, Eve.

Okay. So, you currently use the 

standard plastic, correct, plastic culture?

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Yes.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay. So, in your 

experience, what is left behind and does that 

cause problems for you as far as -- you said that 

not all of your crops are in plastic. So, I 

imagine you have a rotation. And so, do you see 

a buildup of plastic residues that are left. 

Because I've literally pulled plastic before, 

too, and it doesn't all come, right? So, just 

your experience on that and your concerns?

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Yes, you meant 

biodegradable plastics?

MEMBER PETREY: Correct, yes. Yes, 

traditional ones.

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Yes. Even 

when you're pulling your (audio interference) and 
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all the plastic out, you know, you don't always 

get every single piece. You know, there's pieces 

that are buried under the soil, but you don't see 

them until later when you're tilling. The wind 

takes pieces. And that's another problem and 

that's been upsetting to us that you start to 

see, you know, small (audio interference.), but 

you can't, you really can't (audio 

interference.).

MEMBER PETREY: Yes. Do you notice a 

buildup every year?

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: I mean, I 

don't know like that it's just more and more and 

more.

MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: I don't know. 

I guess it's just something that -- I mean, I 

guess, in theory, I wouldn't say that it's so 

much that it's overwhelming. But, again, just 

based on what labor is now --

MEMBER PETREY: Yes.
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MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: -- you just 

can't afford to have people just go out, "Hey, 

let's get all those little, tiny pieces of 

plastic." You know, five people for a whole day, 

that's $1,000 right there.

MEMBER PETREY: Absolutely. 

Understood.

Thank you.

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier has a 

question for you.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Hi, Eve. Thanks.

I love when I see real farmers coming 

up and taking the time to give us or give this 

Board your expertise on your livelihood. Like I 

love the field right behind you looks like some 

sort of carrots and kale, and some other stuff. 

I really appreciate your time.

And I love what you just said; that if 

there was some sort of biodegradable mulch, you 

would use it. And you also made some references 
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on when you're pulling the plastic after your 

onions, how there's always little pieces of

plastic that stay within our soil. So, I've 

always seen that, and as a farmer, it breaks my 

heart because you do the best you can to eliminate 

anything that is harmful to the soil. However, 

I know and we know there's other ways of perhaps 

avoiding that, other than having somebody else 

with torch and burning it, right, and then 

incorporate that in the soil.

So, I thank you, Eve, for taking the 

time to participate, and I appreciate what you 

do. Thank you very much.

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: You're 

welcome. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have another 

question from Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: I do. Thank you.

Okay. So, you cited you would use it 

if you had a product available. You seem to be 

dedicated, right, to the health of your farm and 
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everything? If there was an 80 percent material, 

would you use it or would you have concerns about 

the 80 percent biodegradable bio-based mulch 

product?

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Well, 

honestly, since we have been pursuing different 

biodegradable plastics throughout, not so much in 

a production side, but even on a consumer side 

with biodegradable plastic bags and biodegradable 

flowers, (audio interference) that we use 

sometimes.

I know there's a huge number of 

different technologies that are out there and 

that have existed over time. So, you know, to 

be honest, I would just have to look at exactly 

which mechanism they're using for this and 

which -- you know, they have different (audio 

interference) under different (audio 

interference) and everything. So, it would 

depend, honestly.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay. Thank you.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy has a 

question for you.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, thanks, Nate.

Eve, thanks so much for your 

attendance here today.

A question about bio-based mulch, just 

from your farmer point of view. I recently was 

passed some research information that was 

published in a journal, research information by 

the University of Nebraska in conjunction with 

3M. And they were testing the use of 

biodegradable plastic. There's a component in 

most of it called PLA, polylactic acid. And 

they're saying that that component, actually, in 

low fertility soils can start rounding up and 

tying up nitrogen for the next crop, just because 

of how it digests and degrades. And the focus 

is soil and on nitrogen for farmers is a real big 

concern.

So, research is very limited on 

biodegradable bio-based mulch. At this point in 
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time, would that be of concern to your operation? 

Sometimes, with innovation, it's a step forward 

and a step back, and we kind of learn as we go. 

But are your thoughts if that was potentially a 

case with this product?

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Uh-hum. I 

mean, I think that that would make sense, that it 

would -- you know, use of nitrogen, because 

anything that is requiring biodegrading is in 

need of some nitrogen. It's not something that 

I would find prohibitive as far as using the 

product.

You know, we spend a lot of time and 

a lot of expense building up our soil and the 

organic matter. We do a little bit with organic 

fertilizers, but, really, the cover cropping and 

the rotating and fertility is not the main issue. 

You know, weed pressure is a much bigger issue, 

especially, like I said, with the cost of labor 

which is really close to putting us out of 

business. So, you know, that's really the 
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tipping point for labor. And if you are going 

to lose crops to weeds, then you're going to lose 

crops to weeds, and (audio interference) all 

that. That makes it possible to grow some very 

high-labor-intensive crops.

MEMBER BRUCH: Uh-hum. Okay. Thank 

you for providing (audio interference).

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: The only question 

I have for you, Eve, is, have you commented on 

OLPS?

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Yes, I said 

that. That was what I was saying first.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, sorry. So, 

we're not actually the group to comment to. It's 

going to be directly to the USDA, and your voice 

is very important.

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So, we would love 

to have that as part of the public comments that 

will go, then, in to inform the rule.

And thank you so much for joining us 
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today. We really appreciate it.

MS. KAPLAN-WALBRECHT: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Next 

up, we have Jefferson Dean, and then Ken Dallmier 

and Angela Schriver.

Is Jeff on the line?

MS. ARSENAULT: Jeff is on the line 

with us. His mic --

MR. DEAN: Yes.

MS. ARSENAULT: There we go, unmuted.

MR. DEAN: Yes. Yes, I'm here. Can 

you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please 

go ahead.

MR. DEAN: All right. I'm Jefferson 

Dean of Timberlane Organic Farms. I'm certified 

with OEFFA, and I have a couple of comments I'd 

like to make.

First of all, I'd like to comment 

about the standardized bill of lading. I think 

it's very important that we standardize the bill 
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of lading, so that, you know, when I sell a 

product and it goes to a buyer that has a 

different certifier, then the bill of ladings, if 

they're standardized, we can all recognize it 

right off the bat and see where the information 

is. And that would be very important, just to 

make it easy for everybody to read them, no matter 

where it's going, because it goes from one 

company to another, to another, through a couple 

of brokers. That way, everybody can read them.

Now, as far as the standardizing the 

Organic Systems Plan information, that's between 

me and my certifier. There's no reason to 

standardize those. Everybody's got their own 

system. Everybody's comfortable with it, and 

that's between me and my certifier. It doesn't 

go any further than that. There's no reason to 

standardize them. So, that's one thing I'd like 

to comment on.

The other thing I'd like to comment on 

is the time of the meetings. I don't know if you 
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can see me, but I am in my welding coat right now 

because I was fixing a piece of equipment. We 

are very busy this time of year. You know, 

there's no reason we can't have these meetings at 

a different time, even if it just moves it back 

or ahead two weeks each time, so that it's always

at a different time. So, everybody has an option 

to -- my son would love to be speaking with you 

today, but he can't; we're too busy, because this 

is our busy time. And the other time you have 

the meeting is in the springtime, when we're also 

really busy.

We're really getting the feeling that 

you guys don't want to hear from farmers, like 

you're afraid to hear from farmers. If you have 

the meetings when a lot of farmers can 

participate, you're afraid you're going to get 

overwhelmed or something, or you're going to 

actually hear how farmers feel.

And it's very frustrating. Because 

I've been talking, you know, trying to convince 
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you to move the meetings to a different time for 

about six years. And I've heard all these 

excuses. "Oh, you know, everybody's busy at some 

point." Well, if you move it two weeks back 

every time, then everybody could have a chance.

There's only a few farmers that aren't 

busy in the fall, and there's not very many people 

that aren't busy in the springtime. So, it's 

very frustrating for us. I don't understand why 

you can't move it.

You know, I've heard all kinds of 

excuses, but there's no good reason it can be 

moved to a different time. August and January 

would be fantastic, but that's just for me. But 

you can move it back two weeks each time, and 

then, eventually, it would be good for everybody.

That's all I have to say right now. 

Thanks for listening.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thanks. Yes. 

For every farmer who has called in today, we 

appreciate you stopping your busy schedule and 
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making it happen.

I know Amy climbed off a semi this 

morning to get onto this Zoom call. So, it is a 

stretch to make this happen, and we really 

appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.

Who has some questions for Jeff? I 

do, but I'll wait until the end.

Logan, please go ahead.

MEMBER PETREY: Yes, thank you.

Jeff, thank you. I understanding. A 

farmer here, spring and fall is bad. I want you 

to know that we have had discussions on the Board. 

We're working through it.

And even beyond the Board, you know, 

I used to think, why in the world did they pick 

these two times? And we've heard from a lot of 

farmers.

Now, I do want you to know, especially 

as a farmer, I love hearing from farmers, and 

everybody else does, too. And so, we need to 

come to a better conclusion.
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I will say that, onboarding Board 

members, and it's certain timings, and timings 

with sunsets, there is a lot in play. And I want 

you to know that. It's not that we are trying 

to stay away from farmers. Hopefully, we do come 

to something that does help out better.

So, I apologize for any of the things 

that seem like excuses, but when you're bringing 

on people with a new Administration or new Board 

members and timing of that, and getting 

everything done, that does have to be taken, you 

know, we have to take that into consideration for 

the Board work as well.

So, we're going to continue to work on 

it. I know Nate will follow up with something 

like that. But I want you to know, from a farmer, 

understand we love to hear from farmers, and I 

hope that impression does change for you.

MR. DEAN: I can't see where two weeks 

is going to make any difference in any of this. 

If you just move the meeting back or forward two 
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weeks -- add two weeks, you'll have an extra two 

weeks every year, or every six months you'll have 

an extra two weeks to get done whatever you need 

to get done. And then, eventually, it will be 

in a better time for everybody.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Logan.

Jeff, I hear your concern; I really 

do. And I, as a farmer, also agree that there's 

no worse time than these two times. So, last 

time we heard your comment very loud and clear, 

and we spent the semester looking at how can we 

do it. How can we go about figuring out a better 

time? Could we move it two weeks every time? 

Where would that land us?

And there are, as a federal board that 

covers the whole country, there are so many 

considerations. And so, Michelle Arsenault, who 

is our champion and our captain, when it comes to 

taking on big projects like these, spent a lot of 

time and resources giving us all of the options.

So, all four farmers on the Board, 
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everybody on the Board who has a best time that 

would work for them -- so, we all got to put our 

best time forward. We considered all of those, 

and we're going to announce this at the meeting 

as well. And I hope that Op (phonetic) is able 

to bring this back to the grain growers' group.

But we landed on the reason that we've 

landed for April and October for the last 20 years 

is sound. And we'll have more descriptions of 

what all of those conflicts are.

But it's a big reason that I'm a huge 

fan of these virtual meetings, so that at least 

you can get in virtually, even if it's not in 

person. But I think it makes it so that we can 

hear from farmers.

But I tell you, Jeff, every single 

farmer I think has said that they've been pulled 

over on the side of the road; they've been in a 

combine; they've been in a tractor, and that's 

one step forward to making it possible to hear 

from farmers in a more consistent way.
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So, please don't think we don't hear 

from you. We farmers feel your pain, and we do 

want to try and make it as inclusive as possible. 

But, looking at all of the considerations, we've 

still landed that the only times that work are 

April and October.

And I wish it was January and July for 

me, because I'm not doing anything either of 

those months. Things are just growing or things 

are dead.

But I hear you, and thank you so much 

for calling in.

Could I ask you one more quick 

question, Jeff?

MR. DEAN: Sure.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: What do you think 

of acres on certificates? You do it. Has the 

sky fallen for you?

MR. DEAN: I'm sorry, the question 

again?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: What do you think 
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of having your certificate list acres by crop on 

your certificate?

MR. DEAN: I'm not a huge fan of it, 

but I think it is extremely necessary. I'm 

saying, personally, I'm not a fan of it for 

myself. But, for the industry, I think it's 

absolutely necessary -- absolutely necessary to 

prevent fraud.

If I'm selling to a buyer and he looks 

at my certificate and says, "Look, there is no 

possible way you could sell that much, produce 

that much corn off of your acres," first of all, 

I'm not going to be able to sell to him, because 

it's going to be so obvious, you know. And then 

I'd have to try to find 20 different buyers to do 

all the cheating that people supposedly are 

doing.

So, to prevent that, I think we 

could -- you know, adding that to every 

certificate is absolutely necessary.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And this, Jeff, 
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is why we are so --

MR. DEAN: It's just one more way 

to --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, yes, sorry, 

go ahead.

MR. DEAN: Well, I was just going to 

say, it's just one more way to keep the integrity 

of organic, and integrity is all we have. You 

know, we have to keep up the integrity. That's 

all we've got.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We know the 

meeting, the timing of the meetings stinks, and 

we are so grateful that you still take the time 

to call in. So, appreciate it, and we'll always 

work to try to get as many voices from farmers' 

perspectives as we possibly can.

MR. DEAN: Well, thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

calling in.

Next up, we have Ken Dallmier, 

followed by Angela Schriver, and then Richie 
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Breeggemann.

MR. DALLMIER: Can you hear me okay?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

MR. DALLMIER: Very good.

I'm Ken Dallmier, the President of 

Clarkson Grain Company in Cerro Gordo, Illinois. 

On behalf of the company, I thank the NOSB for 

the opportunity to present these comments.

I'll speak to three topics. The need 

to retain carbon dioxide on the National List as 

a handling aid; the proposal to standardize the 

listing of crops and area harvested on organic 

certificates, and finally, the need of the USDA 

to exercise its authority for the USDA organic 

seal to recall any product found to be out of 

compliance or out of USDA organic regulations at 

any point in production, storage, or sales.

According to the pre-meeting notes, 

carbon dioxide has overwhelming support to remain 

on the National List. We strongly support this 

position. Carbon dioxide is readily available, 
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economical, and effective. While we recognize 

that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, there are no viable 

alternatives at scale to control biological pests 

in stored grain.

The removal of CO2 from the National 

List would result in extreme economic and food 

ingredient loss to the storage insects and vermin 

in organic grain.

Second, in agreement with Rovey and 

the previous caller, the proposal to standardize 

the listing of crop and area harvested on organic 

certificates should be supported and implemented 

by the NOP and those countries selling into the 

U.S. organic market.

By this requirement, and subsequent 

data update to an open database such a perhaps a 

modified Organic INTEGRITY Database, the mass 

balance of organic product supply for each grower 

would have a single standard point to begin and 

verified as accurate by the certifier. This 

would serve as one positive control to fraudulent 
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supply entering the market.

Finally, the value of the organic seal 

is the trust of the consumer. The consumer must 

be assured that the product that commands a 

financial premium has been produced according to 

the rules and standards of the NOP.

When there's a reasonable risk that 

the rules or standards have been ignored or 

violated, the product must be taken out of that 

market until such time as it can be determined to 

be in compliance, regardless of what that product 

is.

This is consistent with other implicit 

and explicit marks guaranteeing product quality 

or safety. Without the exercise of this 

authority, there is no real incentive to comply 

and no financial harm to a company when found to 

be out of compliance.

Thank you for your service to the 

organic industry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you so 
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much for your comments.

Questions for Ken?

Amy, please go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Ken, hi.

MR. DALLMIER: Hi.

MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks for your time 

today, and thank you for your written comments as 

well.

Just a quick question for you on acres 

on certificates.

MR. DALLMIER: Uh-hum.

MEMBER BRUCH: The scope of the 

proposal is pretty narrow and small. However, I 

was just wondering, if this were to pass and 

become a standard, having producers indicate 

acres on their certificates by crop type, would 

you foresee any internal changes, since you're a 

grain purchaser, on protocols to maybe verify 

this information? Would there be any changes, I 

guess, that you would implement?

MR. DALLMIER: That we would 
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implement, No. 1, we would look to the Organic 

INTEGRITY Database to make sure that there is a 

match between what the grower is supposed to be 

growing and what they're delivering.

I would ask that that database be 

modified. Otherwise, you know, say if a grower 

sells grain to us and to the Roveys, and to 

various companies, you know, as Derek brought 

out, we need to have a single point of truth that 

is updated either by the grain buyers their 

selves -- probably that would be the easiest way 

to do it. So that we know that, on 100 acres, 

they may have 10,000 bushel of corn, for 

instance, and we bought 5,000. We'll take 5,000 

off.

But there seems to need to be a single 

point of truth because, you know, you, Amy, you 

sell to multiple buyers and you don't sell to a 

single buyer. I think that the assumption would 

be a single buyer purchases all of the product, 

and I don't think the organic marketplace has
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grown out of that assumption, I think.

So, I would encourage the NOSB to 

recommend to the National Organic Program to 

update the INTEGRITY Database with this 

information, so that we, as buyers, can then go 

ahead and update how much should be taken off of 

that assumed product supply.

MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Ken. 

Appreciate that.

MR. DALLMIER: Uh-hum. Thank you for 

your question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Ken from the Board?

(No response.)

All right. We really appreciate your 

time today, Ken. Thank you.

MR. DALLMIER: Very good. Thank you, 

everybody.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

Angela Schriver, followed by Kristopher 

Kiokkenga, and then Lily Hawkins.
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Angela, if you're there, the floor is 

yours.

MS. ARSENAULT: Yes, Angela's on the 

line with us, but the mic is muted at the moment.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

MS. ARSENAULT: Angela, it doesn't 

like you're using just the phone. Otherwise, I 

would tell you to hit *6 to mute and unmute.

MS. SCHRIVER: Can you hear me now? 

Oh, I am here now. I am on the phone.

MS. ARSENAULT: Ah, interesting.

MS. SCHRIVER: Yes. Sorry.

So, good afternoon.

My name is Angela Schriver from 

Schriver Organic. We are members of OEFFA and 

the OEFFA Grain Growers' Chapter.

I'm commenting on three topics: 

universal bill of lading; universal OSP, and 

listing acres on certificates.

We support a universal bill of lading 

that is a simple form that shows one transaction. 
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Accumulated, they provide a transaction history, 

and this is helpful to inspectors, brokers, and 

at the mill, which is, in turn, helpful with fraud 

prevention. And I encourage any form of fraud 

prevention.

We do not support universal OSP. 

First, I would not encourage anything that could 

potentially create a less thoughtful Organic 

System Plan, potentially, making it more of a 

checkbox mentality.

Second, if the primary reason is to 

streamline compliance with USDA NRCS programming, 

I would question anyone's familiarity with these 

NRCS programs.

Regarding grain operations, NRCS does 

not offer programs that differentiate between 

organic systems or even conventional systems. 

They have the exact same programs for both. They 

just have separate pots of money that the 

programs are funded with.

There are, typically, less organic 
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applicants for the organic agriculture funding 

pool. The only paperwork that is, essentially, 

required is an organic certificate, so they can 

check their box. I speak from experience.

Thirdly, I have appreciation for the 

OSPs that encourage thoughtful systems plans, as 

it gives me the extra opportunity to make 

thoughtful decision and forecasts concerning my 

farm.

The final topic, listing of acreages 

on organic certificates. During the spring NOSB

meeting comment period, I was asked about this 

topic and replied with, "I have nothing to hide."

I would like to share my experience 

shortly after I made that comment. I had to 

submit my 2021 Organic Certificate to a grain 

buyer, and as I looked over the document, it 

really sunk in, the amount of information that 

was provided. Out of 210 acres, we had 26.97 

acres of corn; 9.33 acres of sorghum Sudan grass; 

28.44 acres of tufted grass, with the remaining 
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acreage just soybeans and sunflowers. Any grain 

farmer would immediately identify us as a 

laughably small operation, which is exactly how 

I felt.

I momentarily focused on the size of 

our operation and not on what we were 

accomplishing. We have created a diverse crop 

rotation that allows us to keep our soil fertile 

while also managing weed pressure. Our listed 

acreage reflects the organic philosophy of 

building our soil.

And although it hurt my pride for a 

brief moment, I thought about the bigger picture. 

We would not be able to have a successful organic 

operation if we did not simultaneously prevent 

fraud.

And although listing acreages on 

organic certificates is not the perfect solution 

to fraud prevention, it is progress, until we can 

implement an electronic organic new system. And 

I encourage any form of fraud prevention.
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Thank you for your time.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And thank you so 

much for your comments. Again, it's tough to 

make this timing work, as a farmer, and we 

acknowledge that. So, thank you very much for 

showing up.

Amy has a question for you.

Amy, please go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. Thank you so 

much for your time today, Angela, and your very 

candid comments. Appreciate that.

I just wanted to ask for 

clarification. I think my phone must have cut 

out or my computer connection. You mentioned you 

are in favor of all forms of fraud prevention, 

and you mentioned about an electronic -- and then 

I missed the next couple of words after that. 

What were you recommending for the next step?

MS. SCHRIVER: Yes. It was an 

electronic like the Organic Link System. And I 

know I talked about it in the spring and I think 
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it was a more popular topic to comment on in the 

spring.

MEMBER BRUCH: Uh-hum, uh-hum, yes. 

Perfect. Thank you.

MS. SCHRIVER: And I'm not sure if 

that was the same thing that would be the Organic 

INTEGRITY Database, or if that is already in 

existence and I'm just unfamiliar with it.

MS. SCHRIVER: Yes. I can go ahead 

and answer that real quick. The Organic 

INTEGRITY Database is just an electronic database 

that currently is in existence. And every 

operation that's certified to the NOP is listed 

on there.

And, for example, currently, the 

information that's represented about producers 

right now is our name, our name of our operation, 

contact information. And it does say our crops. 

It doesn't necessarily say our acres of those 

crops at this point in time. And then handling 

would have very similar information about 
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products they handle, and et cetera.

So, that information is currently in 

existence, and I've actually used it to contact 

producers. It's very helpful to start networking 

within our environment. So, definitely 

recommend you to check that out.

And then the Organic Link System was 

just a discussion topic document that was brought 

up about a year ago now to start examining 

different ways to deter fraud. And that was in 

regards to transaction certificates as well.

MEMBER BRUCH: Very good. Thank you.

MS. SCHRIVER: Thanks, Amy.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you again, 

Angela. We appreciate your time today.

Next up, we have Kristopher Kiokkenga, 

followed by Lily Hawkins, and then Gwendolyn 

Wyard.

MR. KIOKKENGA: Hi. This is Kris 

Kiokkenga. Can you guys hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please 
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go ahead.

MR. KIOKKENGA: Okay. My name is 

Kris Kiokkenga. I'm a farmer located in central 

Illinois, and would just like to thank the NOSB 

for taking time to listen my comments today. I 

have stopped in a combine here to visit with you.

So, the first thing that I would like 

to talk about is acres by crop on the 

certificates. I am in favor of this and feel 

like it gives a transparency to both the buyer 

and the service buyer. My feeling is this: if 

you are doing things honestly, you don't have 

anything to hide. I believe that it would reduce 

the fraud, and I think that our customers, the 

people that purchase organic products, come to 

expect that from our industry and feel like that 

would be something good for us to do.

Secondly, I just wanted to talk about 

minimal reporting requirements for different 

certifiers. As of now, I believe there are 

something like 74 certifiers who certify organic 
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crops. I just would encourage streamlining of 

the process.

It seems that sometimes people are 

coming out to do -- I work with two different 

certifiers. And, of course, it's something that 

people need to get done, but there's a lot of 

paperwork, and just trying to make sure that, 

instead of like there are always concerns about 

C tags and things of that nature, but also 

checking on just that nice flow, balance that 

comes out.

And one of the things that I was 

thinking of was, you know, we go ahead and we 

have all this imposed on our local in the United 

States, but for other countries, for their 

reporting requirements. I feel like getting 

something consistent here in the United States 

would be good, so that maybe we can ask that or 

demand that of people who import or bring organic 

grain from a country like Turkey here, to make 

sure that they're able to follow similar 
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regulations.

So, those are the two things that I 

have, and I appreciate you taking the time to 

look into my comments.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, thank you 

for making those comments.

Any questions?

(No response.)

All right. We really appreciate your 

time today. Thank you so much.

MR. KIOKKENGA: All right. Thank 

you. Have a nice day.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Take care.

We're going to jump back a little bit. 

I apologize, I missed Dave Shively.

So, Dave, if you are there, we are 

ready for you.

MR. SHIVELY: Okay. Can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please 

go ahead.

MR. SHIVELY: Oh, okay. Okay. 
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Thanks.

Hey, I appreciate your taking my call.

Good afternoon.

I'm Dave Shively with Shively Farms. 

I'm the current President of the OEFFA Grain 

Growers' Chapter.

And thank you for your service on the 

Board. I've just got a couple of topics I'd like 

to comment on.

That is the certificates that do not 

have acres on. I was totally surprised that not 

many certifiers do that at all. And that just 

kind of astounded me. I thought that was just a 

required standard. I think it needs to be, to 

help defer any kind of fraud, and that would be 

a wise thing to do. I think it should be a 

standard on all of them.

The other comment is bill of lading. 

They should list -- for me, every load of grain 

goes out of my Shively Farms has a bill of lading. 

It has my name, the address, the buyer's name and 
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address, the date, crop, lot number, which 

includes date, bushels, field, bin, crop, and 

what load you have. And that creates my lot 

number.

And that pretty much is everything 

that needs to be on there, and a possible scale 

ticket, which I usually have on every one of my 

loads. So, I know that, when a load leaves my 

place, it should be pretty close to a few bushels 

when it ends up at this destination. I guess I 

feel it would be very helpful to be very 

transparent and traceable.

And the other thing I want to comment 

on is I'm probably going to beat the dead horse 

again about this time of this thing. I agree 

with January and July would be two excellent 

times. It's going to be hot in July and I'd 

rather sit in a house with air conditioning and 

listen to this, and January it would be in where 

it's warm. So, yes, I agree with Jeff on that 

one and others too. This is just a really tough 
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time.

And if you move it back two weeks 

every time, pretty soon it's fair to everybody 

then. That's my comment on that one.

Thanks for taking my call and my 

personal comments.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thanks very much 

joining us. We really appreciate your time and 

insights.

And thanks for the very specific 

information that you would like to see on this 

BOL. The more specific we get, the more we can 

shake ideas loose for how to write these 

documents better and incorporate ideas. So, 

thank you very much.

Any questions from the Board?

(No response.)

All right. I think you're off the 

hook. Thank you again for calling in today.

MR. SHIVELY: Thanks.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 
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Lily Hawkins, followed by Cindy Elder, and then 

Gwendolyn Wyard.

MS. HAWKINS: Hi. Thank you, NOSB 

Members, for the opportunity to speak before you 

today.

My name is Lily Hawkins, and I'm the 

new Policy Director of the Organic Farmers 

Association. OFA was created to be a strong 

national voice and advocate for domestic 

certified organic farmers.

Today, I'll be addressing issues of 

climate-smart agriculture and of contamination.

OFA members agree with the NOSB that 

certified organic production should be 

automatically considered climate-smart, and 

therefore, eligible for any and all funding 

opportunities and support through relevant USDA 

programs.

Organic agriculture has tremendous 

potential to address climate change, while making 

sure that family farms flourish. But, to meet 
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its full potential, we need the USDA to take 

several steps to protect the integrity of the 

USDA certified organic label.

This is needed to maintain the 

standing of the organic label with consumers; to 

ensure a level playing field for organic farmers, 

and to make sure that organic methods provide the 

maximum benefit in addressing the climate crisis.

There are several critical areas of 

NOP rulemaking and enforcement necessary to 

ensure that organic agriculture is truly climatesmart.

First, the NOP must finalize the long 

overdue organic livestock and poultry standards 

rule as quickly as possible to strengthen 

standards that ensure outdoor access and 

prioritize pasture-based systems.

Second, the NOP must ensure that 

organic farming is soil-based. The NOP's 

decision to allow hydroponic operations to be 

certified organic, as well as inconsistent 
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interpretation of the NOP's guidance for how 

container operations transition to organic, could 

undermine consumer confidence in the organic 

label overall and reduce the potential for 

organic agriculture to sequester carbon.

For organic agriculture to maximize 

its potential as climate-friendly agriculture, 

soil must be recognized as the cornerstone of 

organic production.

Another area where NOP can support 

farmers in their efforts to ensure organic 

integrity is in providing support and guidance to 

farmers dealing with contamination from outside 

sources. This can come in the form of genetic 

contamination from GMOs or in the form of 

pesticide drift, like what's being caused by 

dicamba, which we know can travel great 

distances.

And more recently, we've been seeing 

legacy contamination from per- and 

polyfluoroalkyl chemicals, also known as PFAS or 
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"forever chemicals." This has been coming to 

light only recently, even though the 

contamination comes from spreading municipal and 

industrial sludge decades ago. It's only 

recently being tested for.

The problem isn't limited to organic 

producers, but organic farmers have bravely been 

leading the way in pulling products, once 

contamination has been discovered.

And farmers need help from state and 

federal agencies to cope with this contamination, 

including assistance with soil and water testing; 

technical assistance for determining whether farm 

operations can safely continue, and compensation 

for lost production and lost farm value due to 

contamination.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

appreciate your comments.

Any questions from the Board for Lily?

(No response.)

Thank you so much.
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MS. HAWKINS: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up is going 

to be Amanda Brewster, followed by Gwen Wyard, 

and then we're going to finish the day with Alan 

Lewis.

So, Amanda, if you are there?

MS. BREWSTER: Hi, Nate. Yup, I'm 

here.

Can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we can. 

Please go ahead.

MS. BREWSTER: Perfect.

I'm Amanda Brewster, the Executive 

Director at OCIA International, and I am 

commenting on the behalf of my Board of 

Directors.

So, thank you for the opportunity to 

provide public comment on the Compliance, 

Accreditation, and Certification Committee's 

oversight and improvements to deter fraud with 

the acreage reporting proposal, as well as 
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minimum reporting requirements discussions.

These comments are submitted on behalf 

of the Board of Directors of OCIA International. 

We represent the producer, processor, handler 

members of Organic Crop Improvement Association. 

OCIA functions in the United States as a network 

of chapter and direct members, as the USDA 

National Organic Program Accredited Certifying 

Agency that provides certification to more than 

9,000 people in North America, Central and South 

America.

Acreage reporting proposal. Our 

Board of Directors has reviewed the proposal 

drafted by CACS and is in full agreement that the 

increased efforts to deter fraud are of the 

utmost concern. OCIA has long been a pioneer of 

developing protocols to protect and maintain the 

integrity of the organic seal. We agree with the 

mandatory listing of harvested acreage by crop 

type and total acres in the operation on organic 

certificates is an important element necessary to 
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verifying production statements.

OCIA already includes crop acreage 

information on the organic product listing 

addendum portion of our organic certificates. 

Total acres are included in the annual 

application and can easily be added to the 

certificate. These details are key to enabling 

inspectors, certification, bio reviewers, and 

organic buyers to accurately determine the 

authenticity of amounts sold in the market and 

are necessary for identifying potential fraud. 

There are no insurmountable barriers to including 

this essential information on organic 

certificates and making it mandatory.

Minimum reporting requirements 

discussion document. OCIA International is in 

support of developing universal auditing via 

documents, such as mass balance and trace-back 

templates, to increase uniformity and consistency 

in organic inspecting and reporting.

OCIA already utilizes mandatory 
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inspection reports, report forms, and provides 

mass balance, trace-back, dry matter, and take 

bills of lading forms to our producers and 

inspectors. However, creating universal 

documents used by organic producers, handlers, 

certificants is essential for eliminating gaps in 

production. Reporting and strengthening fraud 

detection, these universal documents are all 

seminalized (phonetic) in questions and 

uncertainty about best recordkeeping practices 

for grain operations.

OCIA recommends further discussion 

regarding which (audio interference) legal forms 

and other reporting documents are most critical 

for maintaining organic integrity and working 

with organic certifiers about these documents for 

the widest usage.

Respectfully, OCIA International 

Board of Directors.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

Amanda, for your comments. We really appreciate 
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them.

Any questions from the Board for 

Amanda?

(No response.)

I have a question for you, Amanda. Is 

it a current practice of OCIA to list acres by 

certificate -- or sorry -- on the certificate, 

crops by acres?

MS. BREWSTER: Yes, we list them on 

what we call Product Listing Addendum. So, it 

goes along with the certificate that we issue.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. And any 

concerns about business privacy and respective 

privacy of business information?

MS. BREWSTER: No. We have been 

doing this for a long time. I would say probably 

like 12 years we've been doing this practice, and 

we've had no backlash at all on it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well, 

we really appreciate your making the time to call 

in today.
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Any questions from the Board for 

Amanda?

(No response.)

All right. Thank you so much for your 

comments.

MS. BREWSTER: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

Next up, we have Gwendolyn Wyard, and 

then we're actually going to end today on Doug 

Currier.

So, Gwendolyn, the floor is yours.

MS. WYARD: Sound check. Sound 

check.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sounding good.

MS. WYARD: All good. Fantastic.

Well, good afternoon, NOSB Board 

Members, NOP Staff, and ladies and gentlemen of 

the virtual gallery.

My name is Gwendolyn Wyard and I'm the 

Vice President of Regulatory and Technical 

Affairs for the Organic Trade Association, and my 
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oral comments today will focus on ion exchange 

and the pieces and parts that are subject to 

National List review.

I'll start by saying that filtration 

technology has been allowed since the regulations 

were first established. I personally started 

reviewing and researching it as a food science 

student in the late '90s, as an 

inspector/certifier starting in the early 2000s, 

and in my role at OTA since 2011.

It's a filtration method that relies 

entirely on the basic laws of ionic bonding. 

It's powerful and it's the most effective 

filtration technology available for removing 

heavy metals, such as arsenic and other 

inadvertent harmful compounds, from organic 

products.

So, three points that I want to make, 

and then I'm happy to answer any questions that 

you have.

The first point on the proposal, the 
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recharged materials -- so, sodium chloride, 

hydrogen peroxide, potassium 

chloride -- ultimately, the mobile ions that are 

exchanged with the ions that we want to get rid 

of in the material that's being treated.

Those are subject to National List 

review because they meet the definition of a 

processing aid at 205.2. So, the mobile ion 

that's housed on the fixed covalently-bonded 

functional group of the resin, it's added to the 

product, but it's present in the finished product 

at insignificant levels and does not have a 

continuing technical or functional effect.

So, chemical change/no chemical 

change, synthetic/nonsynthetic, it really 

doesn't matter. The recharged materials are nonorganic, non-agricultural processing aids and 

must appear on the National List.

Point No. 2 for the discussion, the 

ion exchange resins, on the other hand, function 

as an inert delivery or holding system from which 
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the ion exchange occurs. So, the resin or that 

little bead that Garth was talking about 

remembering, it's the filtration apparatus. 

It's the equipment from which the mobile ion is 

released.

The resin or the membrane itself is 

not added to the food and it's not intended to 

become a part of or have any technical effect in 

the finished food. You don't have to filter it 

out. It doesn't meet the definition of an 

ingredient. It doesn't meet the definition of a 

processing aid.

So, for National List scope review, 

per the statute and the clarification of the 

Harvey lawsuit, that's really all we need to 

know. It's helpful to know that the resins meet 

FDA's definition of a food contact substance, 

which reiterates that the substance is not 

intended to have any technical effect on the 

food.

So, my third point -- and my last 
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point -- is that the use of ion exchange in 

organic processing holistically, right, as a 

systems operation, all of it must be reviewed, 

approved, and inspected as part of the operations

of OSP and as part of the annual certification 

process.

So, in our comments, we support Option 

1. We're also recommending a recommendation and 

issued instruction that will clarify, once and 

for all, the overall review and approval process 

of ion exchange and also seated media to ensure 

consistent certifier and operator practice going 

forward.

Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

Questions from the Board?

Kyla has a question for you.

MEMBER SMITH: Thanks, Gwendolyn. 

Super helpful comments, written and in your oral 

presentation.

I'm going to ask you the same thing 
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I've been asking everybody. We've been focusing 

a lot on the definitions "processing aid," 

"ingredient." Would it help us if we had our own 

sort of definition of "food contact substance" 

that we develop when we move forward to proposal?

MS. WYARD: Sure. Thanks, Kyla.

The answer that everybody loves, it 

depends, I suppose, on the purpose and why you 

want this definition, and why the FDA definition 

of the "food contact substance" is not adequate 

or appropriate.

I think for interagency purposes and 

general use and understanding throughout the food 

processing sector, it's really helpful if we have 

the same definitions -- if it works. But it 

doesn't always work, right? We have our own 

"excluded method" definition that's different 

than the bioengineering definition, and I'm 

thankful for that.

But creating separate definitions 

could also create a lot of confusion, and I've 
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seen that just in differences between "natural," 

for example, in how we use it and how it's used 

elsewhere.

But I think, you know, again, I'd 

really want to understand the purpose. So, if 

ingredients and processing aids are subject to 

the National List review, and we have definitions 

for both -- I might add that, you know, those are 

the same as the FDA's definitions -- then why 

would we need that food contact substance 

definition?

We don't recommend including food 

contact substances on the National List unless 

they're also processing aids. So, if adding the 

definition is to support the inclusion on the 

National List, I would say no.

If the definition, though, is to 

somehow support instruction or guidance that 

pertains to the role of the certifier or 

inspector in reviewing food contact substances, 

then that would be definitely helpful. Or if 
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it's to help better distinguish between a 

processing aid and food contact substances for 

the purpose of help to better understand what was 

on the list, then I can see its utility.

I personally like the FDA definition 

of a food contact substance, but I'd be curious 

in a conversation to see how it could be tailored 

to better fit our use and our purposes.

Does that -- anything else?

MEMBER SMITH: Yes. No, thank you.

Yes, I think I have one more, Nate, if 

you --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, go ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. So, again, 

processing aid, food contact substance, I feel 

like there's been some comments -- it's in the 

written comment and maybe a little in the 

oral -- about being careful about the precedent 

that this may set if we do put resins on there. 

So, like if there was a food constant substance, 

like what could that -- like what's that impact 
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that we could be looking at for ourselves or a 

future Board? Or what could we be setting 

ourselves up for?

MS. WYARD: Okay. Well, first, I 

think it's important to be really clear that the 

proposal that you pass, which you're working on, 

is specific to ion exchange recharge materials 

and resins, right? That's what you're working 

with right now. It's not a broader policy on 

food contact substances. This is a material 

review.

So, if your conclusion for adding or 

not adding is based on the statute and the 

existing regulations, then I think that you're 

going to protect yourself against unintended 

consequences. So, if you vote to add ion 

exchange resins to the National List, because you 

determine that they meet the 205.2 definition of 

a processing aid, unintended consequences are 

probably less.

And I think that that's what I read, 
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anyways, in the NOP memo under the implications. 

It's like stick to our regulation and our 

definitions.

If you decide that ion exchange resins 

should be added to the National List because it's 

a food contact substance, and you're saying, and 

therefore, not subject to the National List 

review, if you take that route, well, then, 

essentially you've set a precedent for a single 

material review. And that really should be part 

of a much larger policy decision.

I'll say I wouldn't advise against 

setting a policy that all food contact substances 

are allowed or not allowed, because I do think 

that there's some murky function in definition 

territory, and we need some room for individual 

review to be able to distinguish between a food 

contact substance and a processing aid.

So, you know, again, just really 

sticking to an ingredient/processing aid 

evaluation, and then let the review of new or 
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uncertain materials come to light through the 

process that we've established.

Also, I'll say, like specific to 

options 2 and 3, if you decide that resins are 

processing aids, and your analysis comes down and 

you're like they are processing aids, they meet 

our definition, then I would highly recommend a 

categorical listing.

We're not suggesting that they go on 

the National List. If you go there, a 

categorical listing would, generally, I think 

that would capture all of the 30-some resins that 

could potentially need to be petitioned, right? 

Because there's about 20 listed under 173.25, 

where ion exchange resins are regulated under 

FDA, and then there's about another 10 that I 

pull up on the food contact substance policy 

list.

So, there's around 30 that are 

potentially in use, I believe could be in use. 

A categorical listing would make that job much 
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more manageable, and I think could have the same 

ultimate goal in terms of the OEFFA criteria that 

you're looking at.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Gwen from the Board?

(No response.)

I have one for you, Gwen. Let's talk 

about leakage, degradation, and that is of, 

again, resins. So, could you speak a little 

bit -- we asked, I asked this to Garth this 

morning and Jay yesterday -- but could you speak 

a little bit to sort of that question of 

unintended becoming part of food; that it would 

actually degrade, and where we would look for 

assurance that that's the case?

MS. WYARD: Sure. Thanks. You're 

holding up the leakage card.

I think that Garth did a great job 

addressing leakage. I don't know if there's 

anything more I can say on that.

I mean, I think this is an important 
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topic because, you know, I did hear on Tuesday at 

least once, if not twice, that the Board already 

voted down or rejected listing only the recharge 

materials. And the fall 2020 was 9 to pass and 

6 not to pass, and it was an indecisive vote.

And those that voted to not pass 

wanted to better understand the comments around 

degradation. There were concerns, rightfully 

so, about leakage and contamination, and concerns 

about the implications of deciding that food 

contact substances are not subject to review.

So, I mean, this is it, right? This 

is why it went back to the Subcommittee for a 

closer look.

So, Garth explained the leakage. 

It's not the resins going into the product. It 

would be the ions, once the capacity is full.

The word "degradation," I think 

understanding that this is a term that refers to 

aging conditions that compromise the charge 

capacity of the resins. So, it's brought about 
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from high/low temperatures, fouling from poor 

quality recharge materials, oxidation.

Resins do not last forever. You know, 

they need to be maintained and at a certain point 

they must be replaced, right, just like any other 

piece of equipment that needs to maintained, 

particularly plastic tubing, extruding 

equipment, rubber gaskets, any soft materials 

that are more prone to degradation.

And this is like really like matterof-fact processing kind of stuff. It's carried 

out through inspection, cleaning equipment, 

rubber gaskets. You know, they are not intended 

to get in the food, not even at incidental levels. 

This is a purification process, right? This is 

all about getting stuff out.

And also, from an economic 

perspective, it is very expensive technology and 

you want the system to be as effective as 

possible. So, through system design and all of 

the servicing and inspection and testing, you 
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know, it's kept squeaky clean.

I think, also, just keep in mind that 

the maintenance of ion exchange, it's subject to 

basic food safety and GMP requirements at the 

local, at the state, and federal level. 

Contamination prevention is a basic requirement 

of the organic regulations.

And, you know, this is something that 

all gets described in the OSP. It's reviewed; 

it's approved; it's inspected annually, just like 

all the other equipment out there.

So, I just really want to emphasize 

that, while we're saying that the ion exchange 

resins are not subject to National List review, 

they're absolutely subject to inspection and 

review at the inspection and certifier level, as 

well as they're regulated under the FDA, if you 

look at the prescribed conditions and all the 

food safety requirements. So, making sure that 

those resins aren't going to actually fall apart 

and go into the product, which would be a 
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contamination event, right? That's a food safety 

issue.

So, I'll stop there. I said a lot.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

really appreciate it. Thank you for that.

Any other questions for Gwen from the 

Board?

(No response.)

All right. Well, thank you for your 

comments today, Gwen.

MS. WYARD: Yes, thank you, everyone. 

Appreciate it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next up, we have 

Doug Currier, and we're going to end on Alan 

Lewis.

So, Doug, please go ahead.

MR. CURRIER: Thanks, Nate. And 

thank you to the Board. Good afternoon.

My name is Doug Currier. I'm the 

Technical Director at the Organic Materials 

Review Institute, or OMRI, and I am also talking 
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about ion exchange resins today. So, this is a 

bit following up with Gwendolyn.

So, back in 2004, OMRI published a 

category called Ion Exchange Media along with 

annotation that remains unchanged to this day, 

along with the published compliance criteria that 

all ion exchange resins, membranes, and other 

media must go on the National List of the NOP 

rule. It's a statement, "and are subject to 

further clarification of NOP policy."

I highlight this as a way to signal 

that, while OMRI stands behind our published 

policy, we knew way back in 2004 that the policy 

was subject to change, which is where the Board 

finds itself today.

So, in our written comments, a 

selection of questions posed by the Handling 

Subcommittee were explored. The first question 

asked whether the fact that ion exchange resins 

meet the FDA's definition of food contact 

substance exempts them from needing to be on the 
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National List. We believe, no, this is not an 

exemption. And we give examples of food contact 

substances already on the National List, such as 

acidified sodium chloride and peracetic acid. 

The organic standard is designed in a way that, 

in general, materials used in or on organic or 

made with organic products have to be on the 

National List.

Another question posed by the 

Subcommittee asks whether resins, as secondary 

direct food additive, puts them under the purview 

of OEFFA. And we think, yes, because, again, 

there are examples of secondary direct food 

additives already on the National List.

So, there's nothing that says ion 

exchange resins should not be on the National 

List. And if the Board continues to go in that 

direction, OMRI has made a few suggestions in our 

written comments, mainly, to go to categorization 

or the addition by category route. We urge 

caution, though, in using the FDA's definition of 
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"food contact substance" or "secondary direct 

food additive" as the basis for whether something 

is added to the National List. Doing so, we 

think, would open the door to many other 

materials used in organic production not 

currently on the National List, which most of us 

would consider not needing to go on the National 

List.

The Board could also consider how 

205-272(a) and (b) applies when considering the 

organic compliance of resins and membranes.

So, the potential for resins to 

degrade or otherwise perform in a way counter to 

that which they are designed has always been at 

the heart of our concern. Resin charge 

interacting with organic product, rather than 

resin counter-ion, so-called recharge material, 

should be a compliance concern. However, if ion 

exchange systems were in good working order, the 

risk of this compliance concern actually 

happening would seem incredibly low.
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OMRI is continuing to reach out to FDA 

contacts as a way to seek to understand any and 

all compliance concerns related to the use of ion 

exchange resins. We're also looking at Estimated 

Daily Intake, EDI, for ion exchange resins and 

how those values compare to other materials used 

in organic production which are not on the 

National List.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Kyla 

has a question for you.

MEMBER SMITH: Thanks, Doug.

My question is, back to definitions, 

do you or does OMRI think that resins meet the 

definition of ingredients or processing aids?

MR. CURRIER: You know, we didn't go 

that route. It was more about looking at what 

was already on the National List, looking at the 

in or on approach to 605, and looking at the 

potential to contaminate. You know, those are 

kind of how we were going about our development 

of our policy way back when.
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You know, it's hard to comment on that 

because, yes, we didn't look at that. So, it was 

interesting to hear Gwendolyn talk about those 

definitions.

Yes. So, I'll stop there.

MEMBER SMITH: Fair enough. I mean, 

you know, there's been a lot that's happened 

since the rule came into effect, obviously, with 

the National List, and there was the Harvey 

lawsuit, which has had an impact. There was, 

obviously, the decision trees that were developed 

after that. So, there's like a lot of new 

information now --

MR. CURRIER: Right.

MEMBER SMITH: -- that we have 

available to us.

So, trying to sort of use what we know 

now and evaluate substances with all this, the 

information that we have at our fingertips that 

was way more than had been available previously 

is useful to us, and sometimes can be in conflict 
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with materials that are currently listed on the 

National List. So, it's certainly an interesting 

debacle.

Thank you.

MR. CURRIER: Sure.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have a 

question for you from Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, Nate, actually, I 

was going to switch gears. I see there's a 

couple of other questions. So, if Brian, 

instead, continues on the subject --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

MEMBER BRUCH: -- I'll just go last.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. So, Brian, 

please go ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay. Thanks, 

Nate.

And, Doug, I'm way out of my depth 

here. So, bear with me.

But one question I have is, are these 

resin materials pure? In other words, it sounds 
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like we're going to be possibly evaluating their 

constituents, but are they actually like pure, 

little balls of a substance or are they kind of 

mixtures of things?

MR. CURRIER: Yes, I think and my 

understanding is that they are a mixture of 

things. And they're a mixture of things in order 

to create the structure.

And by making them, they're going to 

have a charge. And that charge is leveraged in 

a way where there's a recharge material applied 

to it that is the material getting 

exchanged -- sorry -- the ion getting exchanged 

with the organic product.

So, you know, Gwendolyn had mentioned 

FDA, I think it was 173.25, you know, and that's 

a good list to look at because it does describe 

these polymer materials that are really a 

reaction product.

And so, I would classify them as not 

just one thing; they're kind of a combination of 
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things in order to get to that structure.

MEMBER CALDWELL: All right. Well, I 

can see I need to do a lot more reading.

But the other question I have is I'm 

just wondering if you would agree with me that 

it's a little bit of a red herring that somebody 

earlier on, on Tuesday I think, was saying, well, 

we might have to like include the paint on your 

tractor as a reviewable material if we open the 

kind of floodgates by allowing resins in.

And it seems to me that materials 

where the total intent of the process is for a 

thorough mixture of a food product with an ortho 

material is totally different than like driving 

by the leaves of a soybean plant with your 

tractor.

MR. CURRIER: Yes.

MEMBER CALDWELL: So, I'm just 

wanting to kind of throw that out there, that it 

seems like we can probably make decisions about 

what classes of things would be reviewable and 
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what wouldn't be reviewable.

MR. CURRIER: Yes, I would agree to 

that. I think it's a different material that is 

very much in contact with organic products. So, 

you know, it's a little bit of an elevated 

concern, I think, for contamination, which in our 

comments I think we've highlighted some different 

ways of looking at it. But, yes, I think it's a 

unique material for that reason.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Great. Thank you 

so much.

MR. CURRIER: Sure.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip, did you 

have a question? I saw your hand up earlier.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Well, Brian is 

always ahead of me. So, he asked my question. 

Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Sounds 

good.

Switching gears, Amy, please go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thanks, Nate.
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Doug, thank you for your time today 

and your written comments.

I wanted to switch gears to synthetic 

nutrient fortification. That was one of your 

written answers, actually, last semester in 

relation to humic acids, as well as this semester 

as well.

MR. CURRIER: Yes.

MEMBER BRUCH: I just want to learn a 

little bit more about some of the testing that's 

available. I do think that you identified a huge 

risk point. There's inconsistency, it seems 

like, when these are used on the National List, 

which you pointed out, in aquatic plants, and 

then, in the invasive part, using capsaicin 

hydroxide.

So, you mentioned there's a couple 

methods to test some of the industry standards, 

but it looks like OMRI is working on an answer to 

identify other testing solutions. Could you 

touch more on that, please?
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MR. CURRIER: Absolutely, and thanks 

for that question.

So, yes, the entry on 601(j) for humic 

acids includes a description of which extractants 

are allowed. And that's a very generic 

description. What it doesn't include is a 

requirement that only the amount used to extract 

is used, unlike with aquatic plant products which 

does have that.

And so, based on NOP guidance and 

historical approach to these humic acid 

materials, we've developed a standard for 

assessing for fortification, but the standards we 

have now are very much really only geared towards 

potassium hydroxide, when that's used, and 

ammonium hydroxide. And so, we have seen novel 

extractants that we are not sure how to approach 

those, given that we have developed a standard 

for really the industry standard, which seems to 

be potassium hydroxide and ammonium hydroxide.

So, that's kind of where we're at in 
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regards to, well, the National List doesn't 

require this assessment for fortification. 

Historically, we've approached it that way. NOP 

guidance is out there, which also mirrors that.

But we are having discussions now 

about how to be reactive and get to the point 

where we can assess for these newer extractants 

that are not potassium hydroxide and not ammonium 

hydroxide.

MEMBER BRUCH: Uh-hum. Yes, thank 

you.

MR. CURRIER: Yes.

MEMBER BRUCH: I mean, from a producer 

in the U.S., I'm very thankful to have OMRI, you 

know, your support in testing these products 

further. I think clarification will be helpful 

when we apply our standards internationally, too. 

I mean, you don't always have material review 

organizations internationally. So, 

clarification is important on this matter.

Thank you so much.
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MR. CURRIER: Thank you for that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions for Doug from the Board?

(No response.)

All right. Thank you for your time, 

Doug. We appreciate your comments.

MR. CURRIER: Okay. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Last for the day 

is going to be Alan Lewis.

Oh, and you are muted, Alan.

MR. LEWIS: I'm glad I checked. 

Thank you.

Alan Lewis with Natural Grocers. I 

manage about 166 organic certificates for retail 

handling, food packaging, and production.

When a seal becomes a shield, you end 

up with hamburger made from Brazilian cattle that 

had been fattened by a global conglomerate in 

semi-confinement on soil grown in fields that 

still wreak of the burning of the biodiverse 

rainforest ecosystem that once harbored 
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indigenous tribes. Yet, it could be labeled both 

as USDA organic and as a product of the USA. 

That's how a seal becomes a shield -- a shield 

against transparency, against integrity, against 

rigorous, continuous improvement.

Now, I will see many of you in person 

next week in Sacramento, and this comment is 

meant to give all of us courage and perspective, 

as we undertake the valuable NOSB process for the 

organic community.

But organic is about to undergo global 

scrutiny under the microscope of ESG 

reporting -- environmental, social, governance. 

Detailed ESG strategies, metrics, and 

measurements are being required of every entity 

that has customers, lenders, or shareholders, and 

that's everyone.

But USDA organic standards address 

only a small part of only one of the ESG reporting 

requirements. It appears we have fallen into the 

trap of using the organic seal as a shield against 
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many things that are inconvenient.

In fact, ESG reporting rules will 

likely make organic claims a primary target of 

inquiry. A producer covering its sloe with 

herbicides and plastic sheeting to grow produce 

using IV nutrients under electric lights may be 

certified to use the organic seal, but the seal 

may no longer shield them from being forced to 

measure and disclose in detail the damage done to 

the soil; energy use and source; the capture of 

land and water and labor from local communities; 

the environmental effects of the plastic; the 

poor treatment of workers; the anti-competitive 

tactics and retail markets, or a thousand other 

externalized costs and unfair practices that may 

buffer the bottom line of some operations.

I suggest we all become very familiar 

with ESG reporting and scoring for food and 

agricultural operations. The Organic 3.0 

principles developed by IFOAM do address much of 

the "S" and the "E" in ESG and are a good place 
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to start.

So, as we are barraged with requests 

to weaken the NOP standards to include even more 

methods and materials to help scale up some NOP 

seal bearers, please take precaution to not 

burden them with haphazard standards that simply 

won't hold up under the impending ESG scrutiny. 

Let's not let the USDA organic seal become just 

a shield that no longer works.

And thank you, everybody, for letting 

me in today on that comment.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

that comment, and thank you for joining us today.

Brian has a question for you.

MEMBER CALDWELL: I hope it's a quick 

one, and I apologize if I wasn't paying 

attention. But what is ESG or EST? I couldn't 

quite get it.

MR. LEWIS: Environmental, social, 

and governance reporting. It's a set of metrics 

and measurements that companies will have to 
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begin producing and reporting publicly.

MEMBER CALDWELL: And who is 

requiring that? Sorry, I just know nothing about 

it.

MR. LEWIS: Sometimes the SEC 

requires it. Sometimes the trial bar and 

consumer protection advocates require it. And 

the biggest issue is that investors are requiring 

it and they're differentiating one company from 

another based on their ESG strategy, their 

ability to implement the strategy, and the 

quality of their reporting.

It's a lot, Brian. I'm getting my 

head around it, too. So, I appreciate the 

question.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you.

MR. LEWIS: Thanks a lot.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

for Alan?

(No response.)

So, Alan, I have a question for you. 
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And I wish we had a couple of hours to talk about 

beef, but we would take up every minute of it and 

not have enough time for anything else.

When you think about the organic 

community and what we do on standards 

development, how would you say we could branch 

out and be supportive of other groups doing work 

that falls outside of the scope of OEFFA?

For example, country-of-origin 

labeling, and in a way, cooperative marketing. 

All those fall outside of our standards, but they 

have a deep value to organic farmers and the end 

goals that a lot of folks talked about on this 

call -- good, healthy rural economies; real 

verification, all of those things that are a part 

of goals, but may be outside of our scope. How 

do we branch out and effectively build coalitions

that empower us to realize more efficacy from our 

efforts?

MR. LEWIS: Well, I will try to keep 

this short, except to point out that we are 
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captured by the USDA through our own devices, and 

"product of USA" is something that's near and 

dear to them to protect their large corporate 

stakeholders like JBS or Tyson or Cargill, or 

whomever.

So, man, it's such a great question. 

We do and we don't cooperate, right? But we're 

so beholden to the USDA, I think we are afraid of 

taking that stance of organic has to be a product 

of the USA. And why are we competing with 

suspect products from other countries, when we 

are supposed to be supporting American producers 

first?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I hear that. 

Still, given the world we live in, rather than

the world we'd like to live in, how do we build 

these coalitions and reach out across all 

different sectors to make this happen? We need 

to get this done and we definitely can do it, but 

we need to get energy, that, you know, we have 

maybe just focused exclusively on the standards 
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to these bigger projects. What's your 

suggestion?

MR. LEWIS: Well, all of my coalition 

partners and colleagues and partners in advocacy 

have been on the call today. Whether it's OFA 

or Beyond Pesticides or Real Organic Project or 

Rodale, all of those people are working on these 

issues. You know, it's a matter of triage. In 

the world we'd like to live in, that would be the 

only issue.

We've gotten so close so many times 

after thousands of hours of work, but do we 

actually act as a single coalition community? Do 

the organic beef producers on this call have the 

social safety and political safety in their 

communities to advocate for fixing product of 

USA? I mean, I wish I had an answer. That is 

the question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I don't think you 

have an answer, but that's a great question. And 

I think that's something that we, as a community, 
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can really be tackling.

Is that a "get"? You know, get a 

little bit of a chip on our shoulder about how 

awesome we are and try to get out there for 

figuring out how do we organize in a way that 

makes this change possible.

My last question for you -- since 

you're the last one, I get to do 

this -- retailing, how do we get retailers to 

hawk more organic food? I just heard about the 

merger of Albertsons and Kroger, and I'm like I 

don't have indication that that's going to 

resolve more organic food being sold.

So, what do you say? How do we 

educate consumers, but also just get retailers to 

push it?

MR. LEWIS: There's two, a good answer 

and a bad answer. The good one is we're screwed. 

The bad one is I'm presenting on this at Real 

Organic Project in the pre-conference before 

EcoFarm, but about the consolidation of retail 
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and distribution. And that Kroger merger is 

going to make things worse.

They don't care except if a customer 

asks for it. And when you travel the country, 

getting to the second answer, you can go into a 

Kmart in Minnesota and not see a single organic 

produce item on the shelf -- not a one.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

saying that. Yes, that's my experience every day 

in rural America.

MR. LEWIS: However, I was at the 

Rural Grocery Summit two months ago in Wichita, 

and the local distribution and rebuilding local 

food systems in a town or a county is big business 

right now. They don't trust the government to 

come help them. They don't trust corporations 

to come help them. So, they are rebuilding that.

And so much of that turns out to be 

traditional, non-chemical-invasive market 

gardening for our community. So, does it get to 

retail? Partly, and they're working on all of 
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this ad hoc retail distribution of that product.

But, in between those two answers, 

people are growing their own and retail is not 

going to sell it. I tell you what. That's why 

I'm continuing to research this and talk about 

it, because it's the big problem.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Big question. We 

really appreciate it.

I think things like antitrust, they're 

a concern for all of us, no matter which direction 

we come from.

So, we appreciate your time and your 

consideration today. Thank you.

MR. LEWIS: Yes, thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: As we leave 

today, I would like to just throw that out to our 

greater community.

First off, thank you, everybody. 

We're talking about big issues, big concerns, and 

it's tough. It's a tough conversation. Not 

everyone is feeling great in our community about 
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the current state of things, and that's all right 

because this is the place where we get to figure 

out those problems as a community.

I can't thank you all enough for how 

cordial everybody was today. Everybody did a 

really great job bringing and sticking to ideas 

and facts, and left anything personal out of it. 

And that's a huge win for all of us.

As we look to next week, I'm excited 

to bring this energy and see you all in person. 

I can't wait. It will be my first in-person 

meeting on the Board, and I think, except for 

Rick, that is true for all of us. So, we are 

really excited by the idea of being able to be 

together again.

So, please bring your ideas. Bring 

your enthusiasm. And we're going to see you all 

in Sacramento.

Anything else from the Board before we 

close out today?

(No response.)
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All right. You all are great. It's 

a privilege to serve with you all.

And thank you so much for your time 

and attention and heavy, heavy work.

For now, be well, and we'll see you 

next week.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 5:22 p.m.)
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

FALL 2022 MEETING

+ + + + +

TUESDAY

OCTOBER 25, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met at the Holiday Inn 

Sacramento Downtown - Arena, 300 J Street, 

Sacramento, California, at 9:00 a.m., Nathaniel 

Powell-Palm, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

CAROLYN DIMITRI

GERARD D'AMORE

LIZ GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

WOOD TURNER

JAVIER ZAMORA
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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

ADAM DIAMOND, Ph.D., Agricultural Economist

VALERIA FRANCES, Standards Division

DAVID GLASGOW, NOP Associate Deputy

Administrator

FRANK HALPRIN, Ph.D., Management and Program

Analyst

ERIN HEALY, Division Director Standards

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist

DEVON PATTILLO, Agricultural Marketing

Specialist

JENNIFER TUCKER, Ph.D., Deputy Administrator

PENNY ZUCK, Organic Policy Advisor

ALSO PRESENT

CHRISTINE BIRDSONG, Undersecretary, California

Department of Food and Agriculture

JENNIFER LESTER MOFFIT, Under Secretary of

Agriculture for Marketing and Regulatory

Programs, USDA
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CONTENTS 

Welcoming Address/Agenda Overview ............. 4

Presentation by Under Secretary Moffit ....... 18

NOSB Introductions ........................... 38

Secretary's Report ........................... 66

SDA/AMS/National Organic Program Update ...... 67

Compliance, Accreditation, & Certification

Subcommittee (CACS) Update .................. 137

Topics:

Proposal: NOP Risk Mitigation

Table review........................... 138

Proposal: Human Capital Management:

NOSB technical support................. 145

Proposal: Oversight improvements to deter

fraud: Acreage Reporting............... 168

Discussion Document: Oversight improvements

to deter fraud: Minimum Reporting

Requirement............................ 212

Discussion Document: Organic and Climate-Smart

Agriculture............................ 233
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

9:07 a.m.

DR. TUCKER: Good morning, hello, 

everyone. I am Jennifer Tucker, Deputy 

Administrator of the National Organic Program. 

Welcome to all our National Organic Standards 

Board members and our audience in the room and 

online. 

It is my honor to officially open the 

fall 2022 National Organic Standards Board 

meeting. It has been three years since we met 

in person in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 

It is remarkable what we have achieved 

as a community during that time. For three years 

we have been applauding each other and our 

collective work by waving our hands in Zoom. 

Today to celebrate the fact that we're all 

here and to celebrate each other, let's open with 

a round of in-person applause. 

(Applause.)

DR. TUCKER: For the folks online, we 
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do hope that you will join us with continuing the 

Zoom clapping traditional alongside of us. It 

is wonderful to be broadcasting and to have you 

with us as well.

I can see up on the screen that we 

have Logan, good morning, Logan, everybody wave 

to Logan. And so it's helpful to see what the 

community is seeing at the same time. 

Now that we are back in person, Nate, 

we have a gavel so let's go ahead and use it. Do 

you want to mark our moment of opening here? 

Very nice. So, let's start with some official 

business.

This meeting, like other meetings of 

the National Organic Standards Board will be 

run based on the Federal Advisory Committee Act 

and the Board's policies and procedures manual. 

I will act as the Designated Federal Officer for 

all meeting segments. Transcripts for all 

segments will be posted once completed and 

obviously we are broadcasting. 
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Now, let's take a quick look at the 

agenda and then I will welcome and introduce our 

opening speakers, CDFA Undersecretary Christine 

Birdsong and USDA Under Secretary Jenny Lester 

Moffit. 

Then I'll introduce members of the NOP 

team. I'll then turn the floor to Nate PowellPalm, our Board Chair for Board introductions. 

First, the agenda. 

The morning will include some 

welcoming talks and report-outs, introductions, 

and a program update with questions and answers 

with the Board. We will break for lunch and then 

return to begin Subcommittee work. We'll 

continue Subcommittee work through tomorrow along 

with an update from the Organic Farming Research 

Foundation. 

 That work will continue into Thursday 

and then we'll close with elections, a 

reflection, and visit with some old friends and 

colleagues and with a farewell to Rick Greenwood, 
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who starts his last NOSB meeting with us today. 

 Rick, thank you for all your wisdom 

and your service. 

 (Applause.)

DR. TUCKER: Now let's turn to our 

welcoming speakers. We are lucky, very lucky, 

today to have two very special guests for opening 

remarks. First, we will hear from California 

Department of Food and Agriculture under 

Secretary Christine Birdsong.

Undersecretary Birdsong was appointed 

by Governor Newsom. Previously she was senior 

Vice President and General Counsel and Director 

of People and Culture for the Sun Valley Rice 

Company. She has also served as General Counsel 

for the National Cotton Council of America, 

Counsel for the Committee on Agriculture for the 

United States House of Representatives, and 

Federal Government Affairs Leader for Crop Life 

America. Birdsong earned a juris doctor degree 

from the University of California Hastings 
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College of Law and is a University of California 

at Berkeley alum. 

So, please join me in welcoming 

Undersecretary Birdsong.

UNDERSECRETARY BIRDSONG: Good 

morning. Thank you, and welcome. Am I on? I'm 

on, right? Okay, I couldn't tell if the 

microphone was on or not. I'll bring it closer, 

I can do that. 

I want to welcome our Board members. 

Thank you so much for making the trip to 

Sacramento. It's so exciting to be together and 

in person, like Jenny said, for the first time in 

three years. 

And I know we all, you all, and then 

myself in my job as well, we were all able to 

accomplish actually quite a lot back in the day 

of Zooming but I think there's a human chemistry 

when we gather together that I think is 

energizing and really deepens the work that we do 

when we're working together as a team.
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It is great to be with you here again. 

I want to also thank the members of the public, 

our farmers, our certifiers, the businesses and 

advocates who are also participating in these 

various meetings over the next few days.

Public input and engagement are 

vitally important to policy-setting and 

implementation. Everyone's expertise, 

experience, and passion for organic agriculture 

is valued and welcome. 

Thank you so much for contributing. 

I also want to thank the USDA Staff who helped 

organize this event and who really run the 

day-to-day operations of our National Organic

Program. 

It's because of your work that the 

organic seal means something and holds so much 

value for consumers both here and abroad. We are 

honored that you chose California for your first 

in-person NOSB meeting, again, the first in three 

years.
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I think we can't say that enough. And 

it's particularly appropriate that we're meeting 

in our state capital city where progressive 

policy continues to create and expand 

opportunities for all in the space of agriculture 

and the communities that we serve.

We are very proud of our state organic 

program, which has continued to work with 

industry leaders, the National Organic Program, 

representatives of COPAC to receive that critical 

insight and recommendation on the future and the 

vision for organic agriculture in California.

And we are abundantly proud of our 

farmers and ranchers and the nutritious and 

delicious bounty that they bring to the table for 

our state, our nation, and even the world.

Speaking of our California organic 

program, I would like to thank employees in the 

program, specifically Mayze Fowler-Riggs, for 

helping our marketing program prepare the 

California organic statistics every year so that 
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we can track the changes and the growth that's 

important to our organic sector.

This is my segue to pepper you with 

some exciting numbers. Here you go. 

For example, California organic sales 

increased more than 17 percent from $11.9 billion 

in 2020 to $13.9 billion in 2021 with 95 percent 

of the sales from operations certified by an 

accredited certifying agent.

And according to the 2021 California 

Ag Organics Report, in 2020 California accounted 

for 36 percent of all organic production in the 

United States. 

Our organic production site acreage 

was over $2 million acres and the top-five 

counties in terms of overall gross organic sales 

were Monterey, Los Angeles, Santa Cruz, Kern, and 

Merced. 

Here's our list of our top-five 

commodities by state organic harvested acreage, 

number one, was beef cattle, with over $1 
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million. Number two is what we call the allother field crops, which includes pasture and 

range land.

Of course, you've got to feed your 

organic beef something. And number three, this 

is an interesting one, is fallow. 

Fallow means, of course you probably 

already know, that although nothing was being 

harvested at the time of census, the reported 

acreage was intended for future organic crops.

And that was 75,297 acres so I think 

we'll be seeing another leap in organic 

production ag in coming years. Number four was 

our dairy cows and they're around 75,000 acres. 

And then last but not least is the all-other 

vegetables category. And they were on 59,751 

acres. We at CDFA are very committed to doing 

our part to uphold the integrity of the organic 

label. 

We know that the organic label carries 

value throughout the entire supply chain from 
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growers all the way to the consumers who make a 

conscious choice in their purchases. Our state 

organic program works hard to protect the 

integrity of organic products sold in California. 

This past Fiscal Year they conducted 

1562 inspections, collected 450 samples for 

pesticide residue detection, enhanced our 

outreach and education to organic stakeholders 

through county staff trainings and attending 

conferences and workshops with organic farmers 

throughout the state. They also investigated 133 

organic complaints. 

Our California State organic program 

also continued to collaborate with the NOP's 

pasture surveillance program by conducting seven 

inspections of organic dairies in Sonoma and 

Humboldt Counties just this past year.

These inspections are of course done 

in partnership with our local county agricultural 

commissioner inspectors. 

Another large part of California's 
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involvement with organic agriculture is our 

fertilizing materials inspection program, FMIP, 

and the organic input material program.

Over the last Fiscal Year, OIM 

reviewed and registered 1245 OIM fertilizer 

labels, obtained 486 OIM samples for lab analysis 

and investigated 11 complaints about OIM 

fertilizer products.

They also conducted an investigation 

of an adulterated OIM, which led to the most 

significant administrative penalty in the 

program's history, and that penalty was $1.89 

million. 

Our FMIP environmental program 

manager, Nick Young, is also the Chairman of the 

Biostimulant Committee for the Association of 

American Plant Food Control Officials. 

This Committee is working towards 

formal recognition of biostimulants, many of 

which are organic input materials. 

This includes the adoption of a 
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universally recognized definition, label 

requirements and a uniform legislative bill that 

states can utilize for standardization across the 

U.S.

We're very hopeful that this work will 

be finalized by February of next year at the 

Association of American Plant Food Control 

Officials' winter annual conference.

Now, I mentioned earlier that 

California lawmakers' and Governor Newsom's 

administration are active in progressive policies 

that help support our farmers, our ranchers, and 

our local communities. 

So, before I close, I'd like to share 

just a few examples of those with you. 

In our office of Farm to Fork, we're 

continuing our farm to school incubator grant 

program and are working on grant programs like 

the farm to community food hubs program that will 

support local food hubs, and the urban 

agriculture grant program that will support urban 
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farmers and consumers.

Speaking of Farm to Fork, another 

benefit to meeting in Sacramento is that the Farm 

to Fork ethos is particularly strong among our 

vibrant restaurant scene, which I hope you get a 

chance to explore while you're here.

CDFA is also continuing with our 

progressive climate smart initiatives in the 

Office of Environmental Farming and Innovation 

through grants for our Healthy Soils Program, our 

state water efficiency enhancement program, our 

alternative manure management program, and many 

more. 

We are very proud of our CDFA team's 

dedication and professionalism to ensure the 

integrity of organic agriculture and we 

appreciate the opportunity to participate in this

Board Meeting to hear more about emerging issues 

and new technologies that may be available to 

help us advance growth and success in organic 

production systems.
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We again thank everybody involved for 

your work in supporting the public participatory 

process and finally, before I turn the floor back 

to Jennifer, I would like to acknowledge you, 

Jennifer, and your team for the strong 

partnership and collaboration with California.

Thank you. 

We very much appreciate this close 

working relationship with our federal partners 

and on the important topic of organic ag. And 

Jenny, your leadership is being felt across the 

nation and I want to thank you for that.

DR. TUCKER: Thank you so, so much for 

that talk and for being here today, I know you 

had a healthy drive up here so thank you so much 

for being with us. 

And now we will turn to Under 

Secretary Jenny Lester Moffit. She is our Under 

Secretary for Marketing and Regulatory Programs. 

The Under Secretary previously served 

as Under Secretary of the California Department 
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of Food and Agriculture, where she was also 

Deputy Secretary from 2015 to 2018. 

Prior to that, Jenny spent 10 years as 

Managing Director at Dixon Ridge Farm, her 

family's organic walnut farm and processing 

operation. She also served on the Central Valley 

Regional Water Quality Control Board and worked 

for American Farmland Trust.

Under Secretary Moffit leads the 

mission area that's responsible for both the 

Agricultural Marketing Service, or AMS, the 

agency that holds the National Organic Program, 

and APHIS, the Animal and Plant Health Inspection 

Service. 

The Under Secretary has been a key 

lead in visioning and implementing Secretary 

Vilsack's food systems transformation work 

including the organic transition initiative. 

She's a former 4H and FFA member and 4H volunteer.

She's a graduate of Brown University 

and the California Agricultural Leadership 
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Program. So, please join me in welcoming Under 

Secretary Moffit.

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: Thank you, 

Jenny, for that warm introduction. And thank 

you, Christine, for being here today and for all 

of that really great information on organic 

agriculture, the stats on organic agriculture, 

here in California. 

I just want to take a breath here. It 

is really nice as we acknowledge, of course, for 

the first time in three years to be back here in 

person as well as in a hybrid mode as well, which 

is incredible.

This is an opportunity for more 

people, more people around the country and around 

the world to really be able to engage in the 

National Organic Standards Board's process. 

That has taken a substantial amount of 

work and I just want to recognize the NOP Staff 

for the work that they've done to make this 

happen. 
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Thank you all for the work that you've 

done, it is really a pleasure to be here in person 

and to be at the National Organic Standards Board 

meeting that is happening here in California. 

As Jenny mentioned, I'm proud that my 

home state continues to be a leader in organic 

production and I'm proud to see so many faces 

here, very familiar faces in the organic 

industry. 

And so let's see, we'll get onto it. 

2022 is really a year of a lot of celebration for 

that organic community. 

At our meeting last April, we 

celebrated the public-private partnership by 

recognizing the 20th anniversary of the very 

first class of accredited certifiers and the 

first official use of the USDA organic label. 

20 years of that green organic seal, 

that's incredible. I'd like to recognize all of 

the organic farmer certifier inspectors that are 

here in the room and joining us online today. 
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Thank you for your work supporting and 

growing the organic market. This year also marks 

the 30th anniversary of the National Organic 

Standards Board. 

This morning I want to take a few 

minutes to recognize the work of all of the 

volunteer Board members who have been part of 

this really, really important institution. 

 They, you, represent all parts of the 

organic community and collectively donate 

hundreds of hours of your time and experience for 

continual improvement in our community and the 

market. 

As Christy mentioned, this robust 

engagement that happens twice a year and 

throughout the year is very important to 

informing the work of the National Organic 

Program, it's very important to the work of 

organic across the country and around the world.

We have many Board alumnae who are 

actively engaged and are here with us today. If 
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you wouldn't mind, anyone who has served on the 

Board in the past, if you wouldn't mind standing 

up to be recognized for all of your really hard 

work?

(Applause.)

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: Thank you, 

thank you for your work, your leadership, your 

expertise, and your willingness to really serve 

the organic industry. 

So, since our last in-person meeting, 

we've had a number of members who have completed 

their service on the Board. I want to take an 

opportunity to personally acknowledge them. I 

believe four of you guys are here in the room so 

please stand when I call your name. The first 

one is Asa Bradman. 

Asa has served as the Environmental 

Protection and Resource Conservation 

Representative from 2017 to 2022. As a professor 

of public health at the University of California 

at Merced, he served and chaired at the Handling 
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and Crop Subcommittee. Thank you for your 

service. 

Jesse Buie. Jesse served as the 

organic producer seat from 2016 to 2021. Jesse 

served as the Board's secretary as well as a 

number of several subcommittees. He runs Ole 

Brook Organics in Jackson, Mississippi, which 

produces vegetables and melons. Major Buie is 

also a veteran of the United States Army Medical 

Service Corps. Thank you for your service on 

NOSB, as well as in the Army. 

(Applause.)

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: Steve Ela. 

Steve also served in a organic producer seat from 

2017 to 2022. Steve chaired the Board as well 

as the crop-handling Subcommittee for two years 

during his term. He is a fourth generation 

Western Colorado fruit grower who started the 

organic certification in 1994 on his farm. 

Ela Family Farms sells peaches, pears, 

apples, plums, and heirloom tomatoes, and 
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artisanal produced goods made from their own 

commercial kitchen, farmers markets, CSAs, 

restaurants, and wholesale. Thank you so much 

for your service.

(Applause.)

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: Scott Rice. 

Scott served as the certifying agent seat on the 

Board from 2016 to 2021. Scott works for the 

Washington State Department of Agriculture in 

Olympia, Washington as the External Affairs 

Coordinator and served as the NOSB Vice Chair and 

Secretary and also chaired the CACS Subcommittee. 

Thank you for your service.

I'm really glad that you guys have 

been able to make it here to this meeting in 

Sacramento this week. We also have a handful of 

former Board members who are also able to join us 

virtually. 

Hopefully we can bring them up on the 

screen as we mention their name. If not, that 

is okay. 
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Sue Baird served as our public 

interest our consumer industry representative 

from 2017 to 2022. Sue is the Executive Director 

of the Missouri Organic Association, known as 

Mid-America Organic Association, which educates 

consumers and farmers about the knowledges and 

advances of organic food and production 

practices.

Dr. David Mortensen. Dr. Mortensen 

served as the scientist seat on the Board from 

2017 to 2022. Dave is a professor at the 

University of New Hampshire where he is the Chair 

of the Department of Agriculture, Nutrition, and 

Food Systems. He holds a Ph.D. in crop science 

and soil physics. Thank you both for your 

service. 

Emily Oakley served as an organic 

producer seat from 2016 to 2021. Emily served 

on several committees on her board tenure and she 

owns and operates Three Springs Farms in Oaks, 

Oklahoma, a 20-acre certified organic vegetable 
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farm. Thank you, Emily, for your service. 

Finally, but not least, Dan Seitz 

served on the public interest consumer interest 

seat from 2016 to 2021. Dan is Executive 

Director for the Council on Naturopathic Medical 

Education. Thank you also for your service. 

(Applause.)

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: Growing up 

on my family's organic walnut farm that I later 

ran, I know the challenges and rewards, huge 

rewards, of organic farmings. 

I also know what it takes to lead and 

make a classic difference and where USDA can play 

a role in supporting farmers and they bring 

product to market. Together we're really 

building a growing and accessible and diverse 

organic sector across the board. 

I'm going to give a little bit of 

background on some of the work that we have been 

doing at USDA in the past two years or year and 

a half under the Vilsack administration and the 
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Biden-Harris administration. 

I hope you all have heard the 

announcement that Secretary Vilsack made in 

August, announcing $300 million for the organic 

transition initiative. This is the largest 

investment ever that USDA has made and one time 

for organic writ large and certainly for organic 

transition. 

(Applause.)

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: We're really 

excited about this and I know in meeting and 

talking with many of you guys there is enthusiasm 

across the board. What's really important, when 

I worked at my family's farm I learned a lot of 

lessons. 

And one of the big lessons I learned 

is that it takes a holistic approach to problemsolving and to approaching any sort of thing that 

we tackle, whether that's on the farm and 

approaching soil health and pest management or 

whether that is in policymaking, really taking 
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the holistic approach, knowing that if we really 

want to grow and advance organic farming, if we 

want to support the transition to organic 

farming, it must be not just that at a production 

level and a marketing level but everything in 

between. 

And so that's where this $300 million 

has many different components, everything from 

organic farmer transition support, mentorship, 

technical assistance, marketing assistance, as 

well as direct on-farm conservation support 

through NRCS, crop insurance support through the 

RMA. 

And then, finally, market development 

support so that we're not just bringing organic 

farmers or transitioning organic farmers into 

certified organic, but they have a really vibrant 

marketplace to sell into. 

Yesterday I had the wonderful 

opportunity to visit and join a group on Javier 

Zamora's farm. Thank you so much for hosting 
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us yesterday. Along with Representative 

Panetta, and a really robust group of folks in 

the California area who are starting to work on 

the development and enhancement of Transition to 

Organic partnership program, one of the key 

pillars of the organic transition initiative.

And what I heard there in that 

conversation was the importance of community, the 

importance of partnership, and the importance 

of all of the different layers, the beautiful 

layers that we have in agriculture and the 

organic community coming together, each person 

bringing different experiences, a different 

perspective, a different wealth of knowledge 

together to support the community of agriculture, 

particularly those who are interested in becoming 

organic farmers or are already in the process of 

transitioning to organic farmer.

We saw institutions, certainly higher 

education institutions, we saw it with the 

Department of Food and Agriculture, who was 
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there. We saw many nonprofit organizations who 

have a long history of working with organic 

farmers at the table.

We saw farmers like Javier and others 

who are experienced organic farmers excited about 

mentoring and really being part of this 

initiative to really support transitioning 

organic farmers.

And then we heard also from new and 

aspiring organic farmers, farmers who are either 

getting their start in a career in organic or are 

looking to convert to organic.

And I think that really was an 

interesting and beautiful mix of the beauty of 

our agriculture and organic communities coming 

together really to solve many of the challenges 

that organic farmers face when they're looking to 

convert to organic.

I know back in the 1980s when my 

family was looking to convert, my dad too 

benefitted from having mentors, benefitted from 
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having technical assistance, benefitted from 

being part of and identifying new markets.

And so all of those people coming 

together to really take a much more 

community-based approach, farmer to farmer 

mentoring is key, supplementing that with the 

technical assistance and all of the wealth of 

resources that are there, the National Organic 

Program is really excited to invest $100 million 

in the Transition to Organic partnership program.

There are six regions around the 

country. I think in Jenny in your presentation 

you're going to have a slide that shows just the 

beginning of the wealth and the diversity of 

organizations. 

What is really key is that everyone 

plays a really important role, whether that is 

folks who are really experienced in the agronomy 

and the conservation practices, whether there are 

folks that are really experienced in how to bring 

organic farmers to markets in different and 
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dynamic ways, whether that is the all, very, very 

important organic system plan and developing that 

and navigating all of that, to identifying 

inputs, whether that's organic seeds or 

fertilizers or what have you.

All of these things can be really 

challenging for a new transitioning farmer to 

navigate and so we're really building a community 

to support that navigation process. 

This is certainly a big part of and 

we're excited to announce the Transition to 

Organic partnership, we were excited to announce 

the beginning of the partners and you'll some 

more of those partners.

I know many of you guys in the room 

are already partners and so I want to thank you 

guys for being part of this really incredible 

effort. 

You've been part of this incredible 

effort for many, many, many years and we're 

excited to be able to really invest in the work 
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so that we can grow it and expand it and have 

more organic farmers across the country, 

particularly farmers who are small, who are 

underserved, who haven't had the resources to 

convert to organic. 

We're really, really excited to be 

able to bring resources and support to make sure 

that we have a much more broad, diverse, and 

equitable organic system across the country. 

I also just want to make sure we're 

also talking about market development. We can't 

just like to how we're transitioning farmers, we 

also need to make sure those farmers have great 

flourishing markets.

So, November 15th, we will be doing a 

listening session for the Transition to Organic 

pinpointed market development initiative. We'll 

send out more information. 

I'm sure that all of you guys are 

getting the Organic Insider, and you'll get that 

information through the Organic Insider if you 
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haven't already. I think I just want to close 

with a few things. 

Some final words about just organic 

is resilient, organic is trusted, organic is 

vibrant. 

We have been, and certainly it's been 

a priority in the Biden-Harris administration 

under Secretary Vilsack to really end with, of 

course, an absolute priority as well as the 

National Organic Program, to continue the robust 

rulemaking that you guys at the National Organic 

Standards Board debate, dialog, bring all sorts 

of information to the table to really charge 

ahead of where should we go?

Organic is vibrant, organic is always 

constantly changing. That's the beauty of 

organic, and rulemaking is an important part 

about that. 

We have the strengthening organic 

engagement rule that is in its final legs, 

hopefully we get that across the finish line 
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very, very soon. 

It is at the Office of Management and 

Budget right now and we hope to be able to get 

that implemented right away.

That is such an important one to make 

sure that across the board we have very strong 

organic standards, we have enforcement practices 

that were closing some of the gaps on imports and 

making sure that we are really continuing that 

trusted label that everyone depends on.

At the same time, we're also working 

very hard on the organic livestock/poultry 

standards. I know, actually, at this point, you 

guys are probably making the most work as we're 

in the comment period right now. We are really 

looking forward to hearing your comments. 

We are committed to working quickly to 

make sure that we can review those comments, 

analyze them, and then move forward with the 

final rule so that we can get this implemented.

I know this is a long overdue rule 
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that you guys have been wanting to see for some 

time. We share that and we're looking forward 

to getting that implemented. I just want to 

thank you guys for your participation. 

I know there's going to be a 

conversation about climate-smart agriculture, 

organic farmers, as you guys know, I know on our 

own farm, focus on national resource 

conservation, soil and water quality, 

biodiversity, the cycling of resources. 

Organic farmers are really building 

resiliency across agriculture, not just in 

organic farming which is in and of itself 

incredible but farming around the world. 

Organic sales, of course, are 

continuing to flourish and I hope to see that 

grow under the organic transition initiative. 

And then finally, organic label, that 

label that consumers have now trusted and know 

and depend on and know that there are really 

strong standards behind that green organic seal 
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for the past 20 years are so important. 

We stand by that seal and all of the 

value that it provides to farmers and ranchers. 

I think Congressman Panetta said it so well, it's 

not just a seal, it really stands for a robust 

set of production practices and so much more in 

that seal.

Thank you all for participating here 

in person, it's nice to see your faces, and thank 

you also for participating virtually with your 

dedication and opportunities, such as this one, 

to engage and make our connections.

We are all moving in the right 

direction. Thank you. 

DR. TUCKER: Thank you very, very 

much, and thank you so much for being here. 

Thank you. 

Okay, so I want to close this segment 

by thanking the National Organic Program team. 

First, let's all thank Michelle Arsenault, our 

Advisory Board Specialist. Michelle is so 
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devoted, clearly, you can see from the rum. That 

makes me cry, it's so sweet.

Michelle is so devoted to keeping us 

going. I've now worked with Michelle for a lot 

more than 11 years now and navigating this reentry back into being in person, so, Michelle, 

thank you so much. 

We also have a number of team member 

from Standards and from the broader NOP team to 

both support this meeting and to learn with us 

and with you today. 

 So, I'm going to ask them to stand and 

wave when I call you and we don't need to applaud 

after each one of them, we'll just hold it until 

we have the full group read. So, we've got 

Standards Director Erin Healy. Erin, do you want 

to stand up?

Devon Pattillo, our Assistant 

Director. Stay up so the folks can get to see 

you. Jared Clark. Jared will be seated with me 

later today as our national list manager. Andrea 
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Holm, who is running the Zoom show and a myriad 

of other things today.

 Jason Edmonson, Adam Diamond, Valeria 

Frances, Frank Halprin. Frank, you're out there. 

And then we have Penny Zuck out there, and my 

Deputy, Dave Glasgow. Dave, where are you? 

There's Dave. Now let's give them all 

a hand, they're a wonderful team. And now I turn 

the mic over to Nate Powell-Palm, our Board 

Chair. He'll be introducing or having Board 

members introduce themselves. 

All of these individuals devote hours 

and hours of volunteer time to serve the organic 

community. This is the first time many of them 

are meeting each other face to face and yet they 

have just done a fabulous job over the last few 

years here. 

And so we're going to give the full 

Board a round of thanks and appreciation. Nate, 

it is great to see you in person. I thank you 

for all your terrific work as Chair over the last 
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year and I thank you in advance for a great 

meeting.

I will turn the mic now over to you. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, thank 

you, Jenny. We're going to go around and I 

would like to everyone to say your name, where 

you're from, what seat you hold. And I know 

Jerry told me no ice-breakers, but I'm going to 

get a little one in here.

What has been your most exciting part 

of the organic industry in your world this round? 

If we could start with Jerry and we'll move over?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Good morning all, my 

name is Jerry D'Amore and I live in Northern 

Monterey County here in California. I am in my 

third year as a handler on the Board. 

My life has been heavily influenced by 

having spent 25 years living in foreign 

countries. 

I have been involved in agriculture 

for 47-plus years, starting in Saudi Arabia, 
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where I built and operated hydroponic facilities 

that grew 14 varieties of fruits and vegetables 

using both low-profile NFT and vine crop systems.

Directly thereafter I moved to 

Virginia and constructed and owned and operated 

a hydroponic facility that specialized in 

lettuces. Within a year of that, we opened up a 

glass greenhouse and produced tomatoes, 

cucumbers, and bell peppers. 

In the same year, I founded and ran t 

have Northern Virginia Hydroponic Co-op. In 

1991, I joined Chiquita Banana Company and moved 

with my family to Izmir, Turkey. There, as 

regional manager for the Black Sea ports, I 

opened up Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia 

to what was referred to as the forbidden fruit, 

bananas. I also managed and distributed the 

distribution process within Turkey. 

From 1999 onward, I had the great 

fortune to work for Driscoll's, Dole, among 

others. And here I got to participate in the go-
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to-market side of our great business.

It's an honor to be on the Board. 

Thank you. 

MEMBER ZAMORA: Gracias, Jerry. Good 

morning to all, buenos dias, my name is Javier 

Zamora and I represent the farmer's seat out of 

our beautiful Watsonville, Santa Cruz area, 

Jerry's neighbor.

It's truly an honor for me to be part 

of this board and seeing everyone in person and 

how elegant and how beautiful you all look, and 

how nice you are to me. 

Again, it's truly an honor for me to 

represent the small farmer community that I come 

from. I'm a strawberry, raspberry, and 

blackberry grower out of Watsonville. 

I always say that I'm a blessed 

individual that I'm a first-generation farmer 

born and raised in Mexico. I came to the States 

when I was 20 years old, I come from farming 

parents, not necessarily farm owners. 
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I am the first generation here and 

hopefully I can teach others, including my kids, 

to continue farming in an organic way. 

Thank you all for being here and thank 

you for allowing me to be part of this board that 

represents and has a lot to do with our likelihood 

and the farming communities that I represent.

Muchas gracias. 

MEMBER JOHNSON: This is my first time 

on one of these mics. Hi, everyone, I'm Allison 

Johnson, I'm in the public interest, consumer 

interest seat based in Oakland, California. I'm 

honored and humbled to be here with you all.

I'm an attorney with the National 

Resources Defense Council and we work to 

safeguard the Earth, its people, its plants and 

animals and it's natural systems on which life 

depends. 

So, organic is a natural fit for us. 

I'll use your icebreaker, Nate, as an excuse for 

a plug. 
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NRDC is getting ready to release a 

report in partnership with the Swette Center at 

Arizona State University and California's 

Pesticide Reform that talks about the climate 

health and economic benefits of organic 

agriculture. 

It comes along with a list of policy 

recommendations, top of which is to support 

organic transitions. So, I'm really excited to 

see us already on our way. 

I'm looking forward to being here with 

you all, thank you. 

MEMBER CALDWELL: Good morning, 

everybody, I'm Brian Caldwell. I'm in my second 

year in consumer and public interest seat here on 

the Board. I have a small farm in Central New 

York State. 

We raise apples, chestnuts, 

hazelnuts, pears, and we've been certified again 

since 1986, And I think, boy, Nate said last night 

that he wasn't going to do an icebreaker and you 
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almost threw me, Nate.

But I think that one of my most 

exciting moments was the first year that we 

actually had a saleable organic apple crop. And 

back in the 1980s, they used to say it was 

impossible and it was not impossible, which is a 

really good thing.

And so that was an exciting moment. 

I just want to say how honored I am to be with 

this board of really amazing people. It's just 

a wonderful experience for me so thank you all. 

MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning, my 

name is Dilip Nandwani. I started on an OSP 

Board earlier this year in January and I'm on the 

scientist seat. 

I work for Tennessee State University 

as a professor of organic agriculture, the lead 

dedicated faculty to this program. 

And I do research extension and 

teaching in Nashville, Tennessee. Serving for 

18, 19 institutions like TSU and working with 
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other minority-serving institutions, it's a great 

pleasure here on the Board, it's an honor. 

And I have an organic philosophy and 

it's my great interest not only as a job, as a 

scientist, as a researcher, but as a teaching 

organic in principles of organic culture class to 

undergrad and grad students. 

And I did not realize that when I 

started teaching my first course, principles of 

organic ag, and I was telling the first class 

talking about history of organic agriculture and 

saying that NOSB came into 2002 Federal Register 

for organic regulations and standards and I did 

not realize until recently that I'm going to 

serve one day on this board. 

So, it's a great honor and pleasure 

serving on the Board. Thank you.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Hi, I'm Rick 

Greenwood. As you probably heard, I'm finishing 

my fifth year on the Board. I'm in the 

environmental protection seat, I'm a certified 
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organic avocado farmer from the San Diego County 

area. 

I have been for I think about 15 

years. My background is in public health and 

epidemiology so I've been spending a lot of time 

on COVID-19 recently but beyond that, I've been 

pleased to serve on the Board. 

I've chaired the Crop Committee for 

two years and it really is an amazing board. I 

think what I've always enjoyed is the fact that 

we have diversity of opinion and we can usually 

come together, but everyone does it in a very 

thoughtful way and I think to me, it's always one 

of the high points of our American system, that 

we can meet as volunteers and accomplish so many 

things.

I've just been pleased to be on the 

Board. And it is a lot of work, when somebody 

tells you it's a lot of work to get on the Board, 

I was thinking, yes, not really. 

And it turns out it is. So, again, 
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all of the people that are on the Board, I really 

appreciate all the work they put in. Thank you.

MEMBER BRUCH: Good morning, 

everybody. I'm a rookie at this too. Good 

morning, everybody, I'm Amy Bruch, I'm a sixthgeneration farmer and I'm really honored to be 

here today.

I'm in my second year on the Board and 

I serve in a farmer's seat. 

I have an ag engineering background 

from Iowa State University and I have about two 

decades of experience in production agriculture, 

consulting, helping fellow farmers transition to 

organic, and agri-business.

I lived in Brazil for six years and 

farmed there with my husband and I've done many 

different ag projects across several different 

continents and countries including South America, 

Africa, and Europe. 

With the passing of my father and the 

desire to keep the family farm into my family, my 
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primary and favorite job is a farmer. And I do 

that on my farm. My family farms are located in 

East Central, Nebraska. 

We're 100 percent organic or 

transition to organic, we're 100 percent 

irrigated as well, and we primarily grow crops 

such as food-grade corn for tortillas and chips, 

food-grade soy beans for the tofu market, and a 

variety of different small greens, pulses, and 

oil seeds.

Going back to your ice-breaker 

question, Nate, I just can't say enough about the

organic program. It's just an honor to be able 

to farm this way. 

It's a very challenging method of 

farming but I really think it pushes us farmers 

to be more creative and innovative.

And I'm excited, my son is one today 

so he we may have to sing him happy birthday later 

but he's a next-generation farmer and I'm just 

excited for what's going to be in store for him 
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with this program.

So, thank you. 

MEMBER SMITH: Hi, everybody, my name 

is Kyla Smith. I am from Pennsylvania, I serve 

in the certifier seat. This is the end of my 

second year as well. I also serve as Secretary 

and Chair of the Handling Subcommittee.

My day job is working for PCO. We're 

a USDA-accredited certifier that certifies mostly 

in the Mid-Atlantic, but nationwide. And I've 

been in certification for 20 years, I've done 

most of the jobs that it takes to get a farmer or 

food processor through the certification program.

So, inspector, reviewer, policy work, 

and I started my week coming here and watching 

the Phillies get into the World Series, so that 

was super exciting. And I was just so grateful 

to get to meet all my fellow Board members in 

person. 

It's like your lost family that you 

don't know you love so much until you get to meet 
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them all in person. And I think serving on this 

board has been one of my greatest career 

accomplishments.

And the other thing I will add is I'm 

just super excited for the top program and PCO is 

honored to be one of the partners in that program. 

And I can't wait to see what comes out of it. 

It's going to be awesome. Thanks. 

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Hello, my name 

is Mindee Jeffery. 

I am serving in the retailer's seat. 

I am also serving as the Vice Chair this year and 

it's been a pleasure to work with this group and 

the program. I appreciate everybody's hard work.

I also get to make composts so I'm 

having a lot of fun learning about what's 

happening on the farm. One of the Good Earth 

owners also has a farm. So, that was my pandemic 

silver lining.

For me, I think honestly, this is the 

finest example of democracy in America and that 
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is what I love about this community and about 

this board. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And then we're 

going to have Logan virtually jump in here. 

You're still muted.

MEMBER PETREY: How about that? 

Thank you. Sorry, I'm using my phone for that. 

I'm Logan Petrey. I'm eight and a 

half months pregnant, if you didn't see that. So 

I want to appreciate all of you allowing me to be 

here, but also there at the same time. 

Apparently, Amy and I are the first 

pregnant women that have been on the Board and so 

new protocols are coming along. But anyways, I'm 

honored to be here, it's exciting, I'm jealous. 

It looks really fun, you all look 

really cool, the backdrop of everything looks 

really neat and so I am in the farmer's seat, 

it's my second year. I'm a farm manager for 

Grimmway, I manage the southeast farm here. 

We're a little bit smaller than 
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California but we're getting bigger, and I will 

say that's probably the most exciting part for me 

even though there's a lot going on nationally 

with the organics and the programs advancing, 

that's great. 

It is neat, though, to see organics 

working well in an area that people didn't think 

it was going to work well. And so I know there 

is lots of potential for the organic program to 

expand and it's fun here where we didn't have a 

lot of people doing it.

And even conventional farmers are 

taking up things we're doing here because it's a 

more sustainable way to grow. 

So, that's neat, I enjoy watching that 

as it's developing more, but again, I wish I could 

see you guys, I'm jealous, but I thank you for 

letting me be here.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We decided we're 

going to come get you in Atlanta in the spring 

time.
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MEMBER PETREY: I'll be here.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

joining us. I'm going to take the Chair's 

prerogative and go last, so if Kim wants to go 

next?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Good morning, 

everybody, my name is Kimberly Huseman, I sit in 

a handler's seat. I have been with Pilgrims for 

the past eight years. 

I'll start with my background, I grew 

up on a large farming and ranching operation in 

Wyoming where it does take a large operation to 

be able to house 300 cattle, a significant amount 

of range land coupled with both row crops and 

forage as we grew alfalfa as well.

I followed the FFA and 4H chain going 

through my college career, ending with a degree 

in agriculture, business, and economics. From 

there I worked in the cattle feeding industry and 

then joined Pilgrims eight years ago. 

I have been part of the development of 
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the organic program of producing chickens for 

Pilgrims, I head up the origination of grains, 

oilseeds, any of the macro ingredients that feed 

the birds. 

I'm honored to be part of this group. 

Being in a champion in this industry, seeing the 

voices, the faces of all of the individuals that 

make this program succeed is very humbling. 

I chair the Livestock Committee even 

though I am in the handler's seat. My background 

in the livestock sector has been beneficial and 

very rewarding in that space as well. 

So, to bypass Nate's question I'm 

going to turn it over to Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Good morning, Liz my 

name is Graznak. I own with my wife Happy Hollow 

Farm, a very small, very diversified organic 

vegetable and fruit farm in Central Missouri. 

I'm definitely a first-generation 

farmer. 

I'm in my 12th year of farming full 
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time and my day job is anything from pulling weeds 

in the carrots, welding a broken piece of 

machinery, harvesting a beautiful head of lettuce 

and all of the things in between that it takes to 

grow vegetables.

I'm really, really honored to be here 

and especially to represent the many, many smallscale producers that I know across the country. 

There are lots of us out there that are trying to 

make a go of farming as new-generation farmers.

So, I'm really glad to be representing 

those folks. And it's all you, Logan.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood next.

MEMBER TURNER: I think you can have 

that Logan. I'm Wood Turner, I'm in my third 

year on the Board. I'm in an environmental 

protection and resource conservation seat. 

I'm with Agriculture Capital, we are 

focused on bringing responsible scale and food 

access through organic production. We 

specifically grow organic blueberries and organic 
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table grapes.

I've been with ACE for about eight 

years. Before that, I had the great honor of 

being with Stonyfield Farm for many years and I'm 

really pleased to be a part of this board.

I spent 30 years of my career with a 

laser focus on environmental conservation, 

biodiversity protection, and climate solutions. 

It's all I ever wanted to do, it's all I ever 

intend to do, and I feel like this community and 

this board is a great opportunity to think about 

all those issues in a very interconnected 

context.

And I think for me, that's what's so 

special about this community, is how organic 

really represents the interconnectedness of 

things. It's all about systems, it's all about 

systems design, systems management, systems 

approaches, and I think we do that every day.

I'm an environmental designer and 

planner by training, my grandfather started 
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Allis-Chalmers Tractors in east North Carolina 

where I grew up. 

And I am in the process of trying to 

transition some land of his to organic, which is 

something I'm really excited about and I'm 

hopeful for the future. 

I'm sure I wanted to say ten other 

things but that will do it for now. Thanks. 

MEMBER DIMITRI: Hi, everyone, I'm 

Carolyn Dmitri. As everyone was talking, I 

thought what interesting backgrounds we have and 

I will say that I am not from a farm family. 

I came into my work on organic as a 

consumer before the National Organic Program 

actually existed. I'm an applied economist by 

training and my first professional job was 

actually at USDA's economic research service.

And when I was hired the very first 

thing they told me was under no circumstances 

should you work on organic because we have too 

many resources already allocated to organic.
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And I'm a little bit of a rebel so I 

took that as a challenge and I quickly developed 

a rather robust research program on organic. 

I'm currently a faculty member at New 

York University where I teach classes on the food 

system and I have what I consider a robust 

research agenda on organic and food systems.

And just as an example, I had seven 

things I wanted to say, I have a paper that's in 

press now that looks at the organic dairy 

industry over the past 30 years and we like to 

financial indicators to show profitability and 

how it changed in the different regions of the 

country.

And we also looked at how the feeding 

practices changed over that time period. So, 

when it's finally released I will definitely send 

it looking to everyone because I think it's very 

relevant to the kind of work we do here.

I like to be a little bit nerdy, 

because I feel like among all the farmers it's 
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that one thing I can claim, is a little bit of 

nerdiness. So, recently, I read this really 

interesting paper written by one of the European 

experts on organic

And in it she says organic was created 

by farmers but as markets developed there became 

this need for regulations to regulate it but the 

regulators should always remember that organic is 

really owned by the farmers.

So, for me being on this board is the 

living embodiment of that phrase that this 

scholar in Europe stated. So, it is an honor to 

serve with everyone on this board. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

humoring me, everyone, and I think that in 

opening this meeting today we talk a lot about 

resilience and why organic is more resilient and 

all the different technical agronomy reasons that 

we can claim a more resilient growing system.

But I think the greatest evidence of 

that resiliency was when we all got off an 
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elevator last night and after three years of 

looking at each other in little boxes, squealed 

with delight at being able to see each other's 

faces, hug each other, and realize the work we've 

been doing for three years now virtually was so 

worth it.

We still were able to create these 

connections around something we so value and so 

love, and I think that is really unique to our 

industry and to our community.

So, I want to thank you all very much. 

A couple of shout-outs as we get started, we had 

a pandemic as you might have heard and we on the 

Board had our own resident CDC in the form of 

Rick Greenwood, who we could say, so Rick, what 

is really going on? 

What should we do here?

And he was always there to provide a 

very sensible, level-headed answer. 

Today is Beck Bruch's first birthday 

and I think when we talk about what this community 
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gives to keep everything going, Amy giving birth 

one week after our last meeting, being here and 

not able to be with her baby on his first birthday 

is a kind of passion that we all bring, and I am 

so grateful.

Because it is a sacrifice. We all

have other things to do and it is a sacrifice and 

I am so grateful for everyone being here and 

giving so much to make this community what it is. 

I'm getting to it, I'm getting to it. 

There's a lot of feels, folks. So, I'm Nate 

Powell-Palm and I'm a grain farmer and cattle 

rancher based off of Bozeman, Montana. 

And when I think about the worries I 

had being a gay kid growing up in Montana and how 

I didn't know if I would ever get to be a farmer, 

and how that opportunity to realize the life, the 

career, the passion that I so love was only 

possible because of this community, I think when 

we look around and think about the hard work that 

goes into these very nuanced and complicated 
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discussions around materials or pasture 

practices, we have I think a really awesome 

opportunity to pat ourselves on the back and say 

that for a lot of us in the family, you all have 

organically created a home.

And I can't thank you enough for that. 

And so as we all gather back together today, I 

think the greatest thing I came to realize was 

that this community has done so much more than 

just get pesticides out of our food.

It's given us the opportunity for so 

much love and consideration and truly a caring 

community to be a part of as we do this hard work 

together. So, thank you. 

(Applause.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Now, I promise I 

won't lose it anymore. Let's get down to 

business, folks. 

We've got a really exciting agenda for 

you, chock full of interesting things but first, 

we wanted to acknowledge the organic livestock 
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and poultry standards is in comment right now.

And, with that, we have an imperfect 

method of, as a board, communicating that we 

want, Under Section, to give our full-throated 

support on getting this thing done and done 

quickly. 

And so if we have a slide -- you're 

all going to have to give me a minute, I thought 

I was going to be able to read that but I 

definitely can't. Can you read it? It's farther 

away than I thought. Perfect. 

The National Organic Standards Board 

affirms the position that USDA needs to finalize 

the organic livestock and poultry standards, 

LOPS, rule to clarify the expectations for animal 

care and organic livestock production.

Previously characterized as the 

organic livestock and poultry practices 

rulemaking, the Board has consistently supported 

action to establish clear requirements for space, 

density, outdoor access and general animal care 
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provisions for avian and mammalian species.

USDA issued the OLPS rule on August 9, 

2022, seeking public comment and is correct in 

asserting both the statutory authority and the 

conditions of market failure that necessitate 

action.

This federal rulemaking is essential 

to alleviate instances of competitive harm among 

market participants and to ensure alignment with 

consumer expectations of organic production.

Therefore, be it resolved that the 

National Organic Standards Board, as USDA's 

Federal Advisory Board on organic issues and 

representing organic farmers, ranchers, 

processors, retailers, and consumers urges the 

Secretary to finalize the organic livestock and 

poultry standards rule expeditiously to 

strengthen organic animal health and welfare 

standards, protect communities and the 

environment, and prove consistency, better meet 

consumer expectations, and address market 
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failure.

And the Board has already voted to 

confirm this resolution so off it goes. I'm 

going to hand it over to -- real quick, before we 

do that, when I first had right before COVID-19 

my training with Jerry and Mindee, and as I 

quickly think about my class, Wood and Kim, we 

had the chance in February of 2020 to meet and to 

get to know each other right before we went 

totally virtual.

And I could never have had as much 

support and fun on this board than if I hadn't 

met, or if I had met, Mindee Jeffery. 

So, in a spirit of collaborative 

leadership, Mindee and I are technically Chair 

and Co-Chair, but have been really exercising 

somewhat of a Co-Chair relationship. 

So, Chair, Vice Chair, Co-Chairs. 

And with that, I'd like to hand it over to Mindee 

to say a few words about reflecting on our 

progress over the last year and all we've done.
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Backing up, folks. Be it resolved. 

I'll hand it off to you for the motion, please. 

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: I motion to 

resolve the NOSB's resolution on the organic 

livestock and poultry standards. 

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Second.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It has been 

seconded. All right, thank you, please go ahead, 

Secretary.

(Voting.)

MEMBER SMITH: 15 yes, 0 no. The 

resolution passes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's keep 

getting to work, folks. 

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: I just wanted to 

take this opportunity to presence the good. 

In the tradition that raised me, I'm 

given to understand that for individual and 

community health, it's really important that we 

take time to receive the pulse back of the 

goodness of what we are and the work that we do 
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in the world. 

And in that light, I'd like you all to 

please today and as we make our way through this 

week, take the time to rest as if you were 

drinking the best cup of water of your life in 

the goodness of what we are and what we are 

accomplishing in this world.

I know very clearly that I am grateful 

to all the work that has gone into this community 

and having had the opportunity to be challenged 

constantly for 15 years by an organic originator, 

I'm here. 

And for that I'm grateful and the 

pollinators are grateful and water is grateful 

and our children's children are grateful for the 

work of this community. 

So, in that light, as we make our way 

through the work this week, please do also rest 

in the goodness of what we are.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We'll then move 

to the Secretary's report for Kyla Smith. 
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MEMBER SMITH: Okay, Board members, 

you all received the minutes from the April 2022 

meeting. Does anyone have any corrections or do 

you accept the minutes as they were received?

I did have one correction. There was 

a typo in the second paragraph, 2022 should be 

2021. So with that, any other corrections or 

concerns? Seeing no others, we accept the April 

2022 minutes with the one correction.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's take a 

break, folks. Let's grab some coffee, we're 

going to come back in 20 minutes and we're going 

to jump into our dialog with the program if that 

sounds all right.

Great, we'll see you all in a minute. 

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 10:19 a.m. and resumed at 

10:41 a.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm going to hand 

it over to Jenny Tucker. 

DR. TUCKER: Can we put up the slides? 
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Somebody has the magic clicker, so are you doing 

the clicker or are you going to hand me the 

clicker? I'm just aware the real power lies in 

the clicker. 

I have been instructed not to use the 

laser pointer. Welcome back from break, we're 

doing very, very well both in terms of process 

and time, and I appreciate you all finding your 

seats. 

Again, it's really nice to see folks 

really connecting again in the real world. Now 

we are going to turn to a program update, so an 

update from USDA marketing service. Wow, that 

happened without me even pushing anything.

I guess I have less power than I 

thought I did. Moving along, Jenny, get started. 

So, first, it used to be in before times that we 

would do a 45-minute update here at the meeting 

from the program.

As we went into a virtual environment, 

we started recording the NOP update and putting 
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it online in advance of the meeting and we decided 

to continue that. 

And so actually, the full NOP update 

is online, it was posted last week and it's in 

the Organic Insider that we sent out as a reminder 

for this meeting. 

And we did that to flip the 

conversation so it was less time with us talking 

at you and more time of us talking with you and 

each other. 

So, that leaves a longer time for 

questions and answers from the Board. So, I do 

encourage you if you haven't yet seen it to go to 

the full NOP update. It is in the Organic 

Integrity and Learning Center, which by the way, 

now has more than 9000 users.

Not bad for a system that didn't exist 

five or six years ago, 9000 active users in the 

learning center. And if you subscribe to the NOP 

presentations course, it is at the top of that 

course. 
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It provides an overview of activities 

across NOP presented by everybody on the NOP 

team, or a lot of people on the NOP team. I 

wanted to open with a look at our updated goal 

areas, so here are the areas of emphasis for the 

program.

The first is growing and developing 

the organic sector through transition initiatives 

and technical assistance. 

And I want to highlight this is a new 

goal area for us and it is made possible because 

of the Organic Transition Initiative and the 

Transition to Organic partnership program. 

And so we are honored to implement TOP 

at the program level and it did lead to an 

introduction of what is ultimately a new goal 

area for us in the program. 

Second, we are continuing to develop 

and implement organic standards. You've heard a 

lot about standards so far, I'll talk a little 

bit more about that in a couple of minutes, 
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through open and transparent and collaborative 

processes, like being together here today. 

Third, we are protecting organic 

integrity through a strong oversight system and 

fourth, we're protecting organic integrity 

through robust enforcement. 

And so we talked a lot about, well, 

should we really have two goal areas that say 

protect organic integrity? 

And we decided yes, organic integrity 

from farm to table, consumers trust the organic 

label, is our vision. And so having two goal 

areas that relate to organic integrity is 

important. 

And there's a distinction here, strong 

oversight systems are the continuous improvement 

structures like accreditation and surveillance 

and international agreements, and all of the 

things that we do to implement the structures 

that help manage controlled systems worldwide, 

where enforcement is really about catching the 
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bad guys and both are equally important.

So, let's talk about that first goal 

area. You've already heard a bit about the 

organic transition initiative and the impact that 

it is already having and it's opening steps of 

bringing people together.

I just want to walk through the three 

components of OTI -- again, we all have to learn 

new acronyms here -- Organic Transition 

Initiative. You've already heard about the 

Transition to Organic partnership program.

The areas of emphasis there are the 

farmer-to-farmer mentoring, technical 

assistance, community development, workforce 

development. And so that will also embrace the 

work that has happened on human capital over the 

last year as well as data and reporting.

So, we really understand the impact 

that we're having at different levels of the 

system. A second part of OTI is in indirect 

support through conservation and crop insurance. 
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This is another $100 million. 

This is conservation support for 

transitioning farmers, so this is over at NRCS. 

I don't know why it keeps advancing, don't move. 

They have already posted a draft organic practice 

standard that relates to this program.

And then there's also the crop 

insurance assistance for transitioning organic 

growers from RMA, the risk management agency. 

And then the third piece is the pinpointed 

organic market development, so a lot of 

discussion on that at the meeting so far.

That will support innovation by 

building organic supply chains in very targeted 

markets and so as the Under Secretary mentioned, 

there is a listening session on November 15th.

You can sign up for it online to have 

your voice heard on your ideas related to that 

program. Let's take a closer look, an 

incremental look at each piece of the top 

program. 
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So, Transition to Organic partnership 

program, as the Under Secretary mentioned, there 

are six regions. I wanted to show everybody the 

six regions so you kind of know what we are 

talking about here. 

So, again, the five areas that the 

regions will be working on and the orange lines 

delineate the breaks between the states. And so 

I wanted to explain how the regions were 

developed. 

What we were looking to do was to 

group in regions states that already have a heavy 

organic representation, so those are the dark 

green states. If it's a dark green state, that 

means there are a lot of organic farms and 

businesses.

California, as you can see, is the 

darkest state in terms of the account of 

certified operations. There's a number of other 

dark states, meaning they have a lot of organic 

businesses.
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The very light states don't, those are 

the states that right now are the most 

underrepresented in organic. 

And so we've built the region so there 

is in general a mix of high representation of 

organic with states that are perhaps underserved 

or don't have as high an organic count.

Because when we're thinking about 

mentoring and mentor pairing and making sure 

we're getting good coverage across the United 

States, we want to make sure we're touching all 

the states and in organized entities that can 

bring together maybe over -- not over, but well 

represented with underrepresented.

So, that's how the six regions are 

established, that's what the six regions look 

like. And so the Under Secretary also mentioned 

the fact that we are building partnerships across 

the country.

We're at the early beginning 

conversation of building those partnerships and 
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because of the robustness of the organic 

community and the existing collaborations that 

already exist in the community, those opening 

conversations ultimately involve a lot of 

organizations.

And so this is a look at the initial 

organizations that are helping to establish the 

top partnership network across the country. So, 

this is as of early this week and new partners 

are joining the conversation every day. 

And so this again shows those regions 

that I just reviewed but it also shows some of 

the partners that are already involved in helping 

to build this network. 

The Under Secretary mentioned the 

visit that she did in the Southwest area 

yesterday and a lot of the folks on the screen I 

think were at that session. So, those 

conversations are happening across the country as 

we build the network.

We also want to stay very attentive to 
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the groups that are not yet here. Those are the 

underserved groups. We want to reach out to the 

BIPOC populations, traditionally underserved 

groups that have not been at the organic table.

It takes time to build those 

relationships. They're not on our map quite yet 

because we're starting and building those 

conversations over time. 

Our goal is I'm a big fan of agile 

project management, which means you build 

something and then you learn and then you build 

something else that grows on it. 

And so this map will continue to grow 

over time as we continue to add voices from across 

the country into these partnerships. 

And that's pretty cool, that there are 

this many partners that are interested in helping 

to build this collaborative process who are 

already joining hands across the country.

So, I would like to acknowledge all of 

the partners that we have both in the room and 
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online. Can we just give them a hand? They've 

done a lot of work to get us here. 

That is an overview of where we are. 

Our next steps are for each of these regions to 

really stand up so that they can start providing 

services to transitioning farmers who are ready 

to start or existing farmers that want to expand 

their organic acreage or want some technical 

assistance in certain areas. 

We do want to emphasize that we are 

really looking for new organic farmers but we're 

also supporting existing organic farmers who 

really could use that extra technical assistance 

and just be part of that community-building.

So, this initiative is for everyone. 

Now let's look again at some 

rulemaking updates. There's already been some 

conversation about strengthening organic 

enforcement, that final role is at the Office of 

Management and Budget.

I know government structures can be a 
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little overwhelming for those who aren't around 

it every day, they're a little overwhelming for 

those who are around it every day. 

OMB is a relatively small agency, 

actually, and they're within the White House 

infrastructure, and they review all significant 

and economically significant rules that go 

through the Federal Government.

And so that rule right now is in OMB 

review, it went there in August. Officially, OMB 

has 90 days to review a rule, they often take a 

bit longer than that. 

We did publish the origin of the 

livestock final rule in April and in September we 

launched training for certifiers and producers in 

the Organic Integrity Learning Center.

We have published the organic 

livestock and poultry standards proposed rules, 

as mentioned. That is in public comment right 

now. Another one that's in public comment right 

now is advanced notice of proposed rulemaking on 
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inerts.

So, the shorthand for this is List 3 

and 4. 

This has been the topic of a number of 

Board Meetings over the past couple of years here 

and so we have moved that advanced notice forward 

and we do invite public comment on the different 

alternatives that will best accomplish the tradeoffs needed on that one. 

We have also published and are working 

on additional national list rules and we are 

writing what we're calling the nitrogen rule. 

That addresses recommendations from the Board 

related to ammonia extracts, the high nitrogen 

fertilizer recommendation, and sodium nitrate.

So, we really are moving forward with 

these rules. Somebody wants me to talk a lot 

faster, I guess. We are also working on a market 

development rule. This rule will combine pet 

food and mushrooms. 

These are two proposed rules that were 
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actually underway what we call Vilsack 1 and so 

now we are in Vilsack 2, we have dusted off of 

those and are working on that market development 

rule. 

I do want to pause and a lot of them 

are here today to give a shout-out to the 

standards team. This takes a bunch of work and 

I'd like to acknowledge all the writing and 

analysis that goes into this work. 

Now I want to turn to the two other 

goal areas that are really about strong organic 

control systems and enforcement. 

And so this is a graphic that we use 

as a little bit of a roadmap to explain both how 

we approach oversight, compliance, and 

enforcement and explain some of the distinctions 

in what we do and why certain things may take 

different paths than others. 

I'm a big fan of matrices so here we 

are. On the bottom on the X scale, we have 

activities that are orientated towards capability 
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development, so developing the capability of the 

community.

This is also continuous improvement 

and enforcement, so that's the catching bad guys 

and that's the bottom. 

And then on the side we do activities 

that are at the operation level, at the certifier 

level, and that are broad-based, so at industry 

and even country-level.

And so what we've done here is plotted 

the types of activities and deliverables and 

outcomes that we do, depending on where we are on 

the grid. And sometimes we use the grid to 

decide what to do next.

And often, a distinction in continuous 

improvement versus enforcement comes down to the 

amount of evidence we have. And so evidence 

drives enforcement, you cannot enforce without 

clear evidence.

Often when we're thinking about 

systems oversight and enforcement activity, the 
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question is what do we have in terms of evidence 

that a violation of the regulations has occurred?

And so staying on the information 

side, there are times where we believe there 

might be a problem in a market or we see an area 

where more continuous improvement is needed. 

Or, for example, we get a 

recommendation from the Organic Standards Board 

on certain items, and that leads to certain 

activities. So, at the highest level, broadbased industry or country level, that can lead to 

new training programs.

For example, we have gotten feedback 

about soil health, natural resource conservation, 

and organic seed use. 

And so for the last two to three, 

years we have developed training programs because 

our first hope is when we provide training, that 

helps develop that level playing field by helping 

everybody understand what they need do. 

And so training is often a first step 
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when we hear there may be a problem, and that 

often has a good impact, certifiers will adjust 

their system based on training. 

We also do webinars, fact sheets, 

enforcement updates to share some of the work 

that we have been doing, and then new rules and 

policy where needed and appropriate. 

 At the certifier level, accreditation 

audits, while they can lead to enforcement, often 

they lead to continuous improvement, so noncompliance findings lead to corrective actions 

that improve the certifier system, that then 

improves the operations system.

And I think we've seen that 

extensively in the livestock market. The 

livestock market is getting better because of 

this work. 

We also do regional directives and 

surveillance activities for higher-risk markets 

where we may or may not have enough evidence for 

enforcement.
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We also do company-specific alerts so 

if we think there's a problem with a shipment or 

a particular area, we do company-specific letters 

and calls for information. 

At the enforcement side, we can take 

enforcement action at a region, country, or 

commodity level. An example at the country level 

is, for example, we ended the India arrangement, 

recognition arrangement, in organic. 

We also do trade arrangement oversight 

with all of our different trade partners and they 

do with us as well. On the enforcement side, we 

can issue certifier non-compliances.

Sometimes we'll enter into settlement 

agreements with certifiers to bring them into 

compliance and sometimes we issue proposed 

suspensions that go into an appeals process or 

can simply be accepted as final, and we do the 

same at the operation level.

At the most egregious level, we have 

civil penalties which we often use for non-
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certified operations, and even prison time. 

For the prison, we work through our 

federal partners, Department of Justice is a key 

stakeholder in organic and has helped advance our 

work. 

I want to touch a bit on import 

oversight because that continues to be an area of 

interest for the community. We still have a lot 

of different tools and we continue to deepen 

those tools for import oversight over time.

And so we have teams that conduct 

yield analyses, mass balance analyses, and 

traceability analyses so we can see how much our 

farm is producing, how much is being shipped, how 

much is being accepted here in the United States, 

what does that look like?

So, we're doing that at country 

levels, at commodity levels, and as part of 

surveillance-specific supply chains. And the 

good news is we're seeing certifiers doing a lot 

more of this work directly. 
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So, often now we're checking their 

work rather than doing it ourselves. And we have 

put training in the Organic Integrity Learning 

Center on those topics. 

We have dramatically increased the 

number of HTS codes, that's harmonized trade 

system codes, that help us track organic imports 

coming into the United States. 

That's an area where we have 

collaborated with AMS Market News as well as ITC, 

the International Trade Commission, and worked 

with industry. 

Those codes are very helpful in 

tracking at specific commodity levels what's 

coming in. We also now have access through our 

customs and border protection memorandum of 

understanding.

We have access to be able to see 

manifest-level data for imports, which is a huge 

help in investigations and in surveillance. 

Country commodity assessments, we continue to 
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look at what we consider high-risk commodities in 

high-risk countries in doing assessments and 

getting ahead of the market.

So, organic is growing, when we see 

rapid growth in a market we have tools to get in 

there right away and discover what's going on. 

That leads often to shipment and supply chain 

surveillance to let all the actors know in those 

supply chains that we are paying attention.

We know who they are and where they're 

going. And then finally, I mentioned that we 

work with other governments on both government 

reviews and collaboration. 

For example, right now we've been 

doing a number of technical supply chain 

surveillance activities with Canada due to the 

nature of our equivalency arrangement with 

Canada.

Watching those supply chains move 

around the world, is very, very important and 

both countries have learned a lot through that 
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technical collaboration process.

Those are some of the activities we're 

doing on import oversight. I want to close by 

emphasizing where we are as a team. 

The National Organic Program team is 

now 85 people and that is due in large part to 

the advocacy and investments from this community 

in talking about the importance of organic 

oversight.

85 people is a lot of people and in 

the advent of remote work through the pandemic, 

a lot of them are working across the country, so 

where you are they are now. And so have a team 

in Washington D.C. but we also have a lot of folks 

around the country.

And so I wanted to just emphasize the 

growth we've had. I also want to, since I am 

closing here, pause. 

We've talked about the standards team 

and the work they have done, I want to share an 

update and this group is going to be the first to 
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hear this.

Every quarter we have what's called 

the employee of the quarter and we've actually 

given a couple employee of the quarters at this 

meeting for folks who have contributed.

And so I want to announce -- I don't 

have your plaques today because I'm just not that 

organized but you're going to get your plaque --

this quarter we're doing a joint employee of the 

quarter for two members of our standards team who 

have been particularly pivotal in working through 

the clearance process for our livestock rule.

So, we've talked about OLPS proposed 

rule, origin of livestock final rule, both of 

those rules made it through Office of Management 

and Budget and those are very active meetings 

with OMB.

They have a lot of questions about 

numbers, they have a lot of questions about 

approach, and we have two members of the team 

that were particularly stellar at navigating 
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those dynamics.

I am pleased to announce this 

quarter's employee of the quarter is a joint 

award for Devon Pattillo and Jason Edmondson. 

Will the two of you stand up?

The two of these guys worked so well 

together. Jason is fairly new to the program, 

Devon's been here a long time and we are grateful 

for both of you. 

We're grateful for the entire 

standards team, a lot of people contribute to 

writing the rules that we generate out of the 

program. The clearance process has been 

particularly just intense and so that's why we 

wanted to highlight those two in a joint award.

And Devon is a second-time employee of 

the quarter. See, stay long enough and you get 

it again. And that brings us to the close of our 

program. I think we are going to turn it now to 

Nate to facilitate our Q&A. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One of the 
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coolest things about this is that we get to have 

really clear access to the program and be your 

voice to get the questions of the day answered. 

So, we are going to open it up to my 

fellow Board members to ask questions to Under 

Secretary Moffit, to Jenny Tucker, and we'll get 

started. Who wants to go first with a question? 

Rick, please go ahead. 

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Jenny knows I will 

ask this question. 

DR. TUCKER: The problem is now you 

have to be specific because we're both Jennys. 

We'll need to go with either Under Secretary or 

--

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I don't want to 

choose who is Jenny 1 or 2. Either Jenny can 

answer. My question, and hopefully I won't get 

killed asking it, do either of you see a role for 

a GMO in the future in the organic program?

And the reason I say that is we always 

think about GMO in terms of pesticide resistance 
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and I think there's more to it. I think there's 

root stock now that can grow in air and climates, 

in high-salinity soils.

And my concern is for the organic 

program, we're going to see expansion of 

agriculture in places like Africa and the deserts 

that won't be able to enjoy the benefits of 

organic processes, they won't be able to be 

certified.

So, I know it's part of the 

legislation but even the constitution was 

amended. I was just curious to have you give me 

or your take on it? Jenny 1 or 2?

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: I'll 

certainly start, and Jenny 1 can take the reins 

after that. 

That's a big question, that is a huge 

question that you're asking and I think 

especially as we talked about, and Mindee, I 

really loved what you talked about as the NOSB is 

one of the finest examples of democracy in 
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America. 

And I think it's a question really 

that I would pose to the community and I am a big 

advocate for bringing people to the table to have 

really, hopefully, hard conversations where we 

can all really discuss pros and cons.

So, I'm not going to answer your 

question aside from to throw it back to the 

community and say I think this is a question that 

the community that needs to tackle as a whole and 

I am interested in how the community tackles that 

question and some of the things, and certainly, 

as always, USDA has a lot of wealth of technical 

and scientific resources to be able to support 

the community as the community navigates that. 

MEMBER GREENWOOD: And I appreciate 

that, I think one of the problems is if you 

mention GMO in this community, you can be dead 

meat. And so it's hard to get people to have 

discussions. 

I've mentioned it to some of my Board 
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colleagues and said, I don't know if you should 

even bring that up. So, it's hard to get people 

to understand there can be GMO and GMO.

And I come from the human health 

background where the equivalent of GMO is savings 

lives, it's not all about pesticides. So, I 

appreciate your comment but I see some concerns. 

Jenny 1? 

DR. TUCKER: I actually would echo 

what the Under Secretary said, this is a dialog 

and I do think one of the things we have seen, 

I'm going to broaden to process, a lot of folks 

have commented on how respectful this board is in 

dialog and debate and the fact that actually, you 

brought that up as the very first question and no 

one's run screaming from the room, we're all 

still here. 

And so I do think this community is 

modeling space for dialog, and so what she said.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I appreciate it, 

thank you. 
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 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, please go 

ahead. If you want to mic yourself, Jerry?

MEMBER D'AMORE: That was a wonderful 

go-around and, Rick, I applaud you for your 

question and I think what was just said is 

absolutely true, you said it. 

It's part of the dialog, you and I 

have talked about it a lot, you know my thoughts 

on it too, which are sympathetic to yours, and 

we've started

And I thank you. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian and then 

Allison?

 MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, thank you so 

much for those presentations and I have a couple 

comments first. 

One is that I'm so excited to see the 

movement that Dr. Tucker is doing and creating in 

terms of enforcement and the integrity of the 

organic label, I think it's fantastic and I wish 

it godspeed in the future, the same kind of 
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trajectory.

And just a quick comment about the 

process and rulemaking and the reviews that 

happen. 

I just want to put a plug in for in 

the economic analysis, I think sometimes it's 

done on a pretty simplistic level and in my 

opinion, the potential cost of damage to the 

organic label and the integrity and the trust of 

the consumer is something I believe our 

economists actually can qualify within limits. 

And that should be part of the process 

as well so that we're not just looking at the 

simplistic direct impacts of a decision but the 

overall impacts on the entire consumer side of it 

too.

I just wanted to throw that in there. 

But then I have a very specific question for Jenny 

Tucker and that is that on the AMS decisions 

webpage, there's listings of operations and some 

certifying agencies that have lost their 
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certification or accreditation status, or the 

decision has been made to deny it.

But there is a final step where it can 

be reviewed by a USDA Administrative Judge and, 

Jenny, I think I got the terminology correct on 

this one. 

And I looked on that page and from 

what I can see, there's several of those and some 

have been unresolved as far as the webpage shows 

for many years.

I'm just wondering what that review 

process is with the Administrative Judge and then 

what timelines we can expect for those. So, 

thanks. 

DR. TUCKER: Really thoughtful 

question and I appreciate it. For those who are 

not as steeped in the ALJ process, let's just 

back up a little bit in terms of big-picture 

context here.

So, what we're talking about here is 

both the complaint investigation process but also 
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the appeals process. 

And so the regulations really do, 

while the words aren't specifically in there, 

they really do emphasize continuous improvement 

and that plays all the way through the appeals 

process, so that if an operator has challenges or 

a certifier has challenges, they have many, many, 

many, many opportunities to bring themselves into 

compliance. 

So, it's actually a very, very small 

percentage of our cases make it to ALJ phase. I 

do want to emphasize that we're talking about 

maybe one percent, two percent of all cases that 

end up at that phase, so a big picture. 

Most of our complaint cases are 

resolved by farmers coming into compliance 

voluntarily or voluntarily entering into a 

settlement agreement. And so the settlement 

agreement may be with us, it may be with a 

certifier. 

If a settlement agreement doesn't work 
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or if it is breached, then there can be what's 

called the decision, it is the administrator's 

decision so the proposed adverse action, so a 

proposed suspension or a proposed revocation is 

appealed.

And it could be that a certifier 

settles a case and then we also settle it again 

because we do think there's hope for compliance. 

So, actually, few cases go to a decision level 

where an administrator actually signs off on the 

proposed adverse action. 

When that happens, when there is a 

decision that the administrator assigns, there is 

another appeal step if the operator or certifier 

does not like that decision. 

Now, many, many entities stop at that 

phase. So, they receive an administrator's 

decision upholding the certifier or the NOP's 

decision and at that point, they say, okay, I'm 

out of the game. 

There are also cases where we have 
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settled the case after a decision, so for 

example, there might be a decision denying an 

appeal of a proposed suspension. 

It turns out the operation has 

actually exited the market because they were 

having a lot of problems anyway.

We will enter into sometimes a 

settlement agreement where they agree to stay out 

of the market for the time that they would have 

been suspended and many of them will accept that.

And we probably need to do a little 

bit of a scrub on the older, older, older cases 

on the website to make sure that if they have 

been closed, it indicates that. 

That said, there are a handful of 

cases that are on that list since 2020 that are 

slated to go to an Administrative Law Judge and 

have not gone there yet. 

And some of that relates to just like 

I talk about the rulemaking pipeline, we do also 

have a pipeline associated with enforcement cases 
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to get to the ALJ.

So, just like our rules need to go, 

for example, through legal review, anything that 

goes through the ALJ also goes to the same legal 

review, and by the way, they're the same people. 

We've been open about some of the 

challenges in pipeline management and that does 

impact those ALJ cases. We have had recent 

conversations with our legal team to move some of 

those along and to prioritize some of them.

We are aware of that pipeline problem. 

So, this is a long answer to your question but it 

was a really, really important question. I do 

again want to emphasize that we're talking about 

a very, very small handful of cases.

We have learned how to use settlement 

agreements very, very effectively to get bad 

actors either out of the game or to bring them 

into compliance, and that's always our goal, 

either to get you out of the market or to get you 

into compliance, both as soon as possible.
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And that settlement agreement process 

has worked very, very well for us over the last 

several years in achieving those goals. So, I 

appreciate your raising the ALJ, it's not a 

question that I get a lot.

It's things we try to work through and 

move through in the program and I think 

bottlenecks move through systems, and so you 

solve some bottlenecks and they move to a 

different place in the system.

And I think you've identified an area 

we're continuing to work on. 

MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you so much. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison, please 

go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. I really 

appreciate all of your attention and transparency 

around support for transition. I spent most of 

the time right now thinking about how to make 

sure that anyone that wants to eat or grow or 

process organic can do that.
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So, I'm really thrilled to see so much 

progress this year and I'm thinking of course 

about what comes next. 

And Under Secretary Moffitt, I 

appreciated your point about taking a holistic 

approach across the USDA approach to this problem 

because it really will take everyone.

So, I have a couple of questions for 

both of you. Jenny Tucker, I'd love to hear more 

about the partnership program and how you are 

planning to roll out the partnerships and make 

sure this program reaches farmers who don't know 

about it, don't see themselves in organic, may 

not trust USDA because of a history of 

discrimination. 

We had to really use this as an 

opportunity to invite folks into organic who may 

not already be here. 

And Under Secretary Moffitt, I would 

love to hear from you about what opportunities 

you see to work across USDA on organic on 
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including whether they're plans to fill the 

senior advisor role on organic and whether there 

are opportunities for USDA to lead on federal 

procurement as a market development 

opportunity. 

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: Sure, I will 

certainly take the second question. 

First off, I want to recognize Marnie 

Carlin, who is in the room, who served as Organic 

Advisor for six months under Vilsack too, and 

then also, of course you know Mark Lipson who 

served in Vilsack 1.

Organic is a priority for Secretary 

Vilsack, it certainly is a priority for me and 

all of us here. 

And so we are on the question of the 

organic policy advisor, it is an absolutely 

priority to fill that position and we are 

actively working on that. 

And I think that we've been able to 

continue to make really great progress but 
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certainly, we could do even more with someone who 

is dedicated to working on organic issues.

You asked a question, Allison, about 

working across USDA. One thing, well, there's 

many different things, first off, the organic 

advisor, that is an important part of that 

position's portfolio.

That said, absent that position being 

filled, we continue to work and as we've talked 

about the Organic Transition Initiative, that's 

brought many of our agencies across USDA together 

to really navigate the system as a whole. 

So, we're meeting regularly, we're 

conversing regularly. 

I think an important part of the NRCS 

piece, the $75 million for Organic Transition 

Initiative, is really importantly, of course, 

making sure that we get important conservation 

dollars for organic farmers.

Also part of that is training for NRCS 

field staff on organic systems. And so this is 
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just part of growing the wealth of knowledge 

across USDA. We've been having similar 

conversations with the Farm Services Agency.

We're working with, of course, ARS and 

our research agencies to make sure that we have 

that, again, cross-pollination of the work that 

you guys are working on and the issues that you're 

tackling. 

Maybe there's research components 

that we need to be asking ARS to tackle with us. 

So, that is happening in an organic way. We 

certainly look forward to when we have our 

organic and senior organic advisor also doing it 

in a much more formal way as well. 

And then procurement. We have been 

working across the board at looking at how we do 

procurement generally, how are we doing 

procurement in a way that is making sure we have 

much more equitable access for producers, 

processors generally, and being able to 

participate in procurement at USDA. 
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One of the being things we've been 

working on is the local food purchase assistance 

program as well as local food for schools. And 

this is really about partnering with states and 

investing in states, and getting them a little 

bit more flexibility with their buying power in 

procurement.

Although, of course, we do what we 

call cooperative agreements, which means, very 

similar to the top program, we're going to be 

very much involved in each one of those programs 

and how they're developed because key is really 

making sure that we've got small underserved 

farmers being able to participate.

So, I think there's a lot of 

opportunity there. We've instilled a community 

to practice the program so we're taking into 

account and learning from the states as they're 

doing procurement.

And I know as we announce the 

California one in July that there are lots of 
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organic farmers who are participating. 

And so I think it will be really 

helpful for us to see what works, how it works, 

so that we can really start to take those lessons 

learned and instill them into the programming 

that we have across USDA for procurement. 

I'll pass it onto Jenny for the first 

question. 

DR. TUCKER: That was actually a great 

lead-in with the cooperative agreements. 

Cooperative agreements are really powerful tools 

and so that is actually the mechanism that we are 

using with the top regions, we're getting to 

those.

It's a question of how are we going to 

build out those partnerships? Cooperative 

agreements allow us to work directly with a lead 

organization to shape the partners that are part 

of the program overall.

And so each of those regions that we 

talked about has a partner that will be the 
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connector to the USDA. USDA actually holds the 

agreement with that single partner and then that 

partner will have sub-agreements with other 

partners in that region.

That allows us to have an ongoing 

conversation about what is the set of partners, 

who is at the table, who is not at the table, who 

do we need to call to find out who to call, who 

to call to who to call, to find out who needs to 

be at the table.

And again, I invite the entire 

community, it's going to take all of us. It can 

sound a little bit of an abstraction, oh, 

underserved communities. So, my answer is, okay, 

tell me who to call, I need a phone number, I 

need an email.

So, we've got to get to the point 

where we actually have names and faces that we 

can connect with and go to their table or build 

a new table, or have them come to our table, and 

build the table together. 
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But we've got to get to the very, very 

practical reality of who are we talking about and 

if we don't know who we're talking about, who 

do we talk to to find out who we're talking about? 

This is hard and I have had some 

partners say this is going to take some time to 

build those because in some cases we don't even 

know who we're talking about yet. 

It is an unknown unknown yet and that 

takes time to bring to the surface. 

I think we're also committed to 

starting services quickly and so balancing those 

two forces of let's get services out into the 

world as soon as we can and also continue to build 

those conversations.

It is something we're going to 

carefully monitor of what are the partner lists, 

who do they represent, and do we truly know if we 

have everyone at the table, and how do we find 

out if we don't?

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you both.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

ahead?

MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Nate, thank 

you for your time and attention. My question 

will be on enforcement and oversight and I 

appreciate all the updates and transparency that 

was provided.

Dr. Tucker, you briefly touched on 

India with your opening but since it's on the 

hearts and minds of grain farmers I have a status 

update question for you. 

Just a little bit of background, in 

January of 2021, noticed was given to India about 

the mutual recognition process that it would end, 

therefore providing a runway of 18 months, which 

would have been July of 2022 for producers in 

India to be certified under our accredited NLP 

certification process. 

So, in reviewing import data recently 

and maritime reports, we can tell direct grain 

imports from India to the U.S. are actually down 
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drastically. 

However, now the trail appears to show 

that organic Indian feed-grade soybeans are now 

being routed through Canada first, processed 

there, and then returning to the U.S. as soybean 

meal. 

So, we're actually seeing currently a 

dramatic decrease in our organic feed-grade 

prices due to the situation or the apparent 

situation that's occurring. 

I was just curious what the conversion 

rate of Indian operations that made the 

transition to the certification system and then 

secondarily, in that same timeframe that NLP was 

making these changes, do you have insight into 

what Canada's approach to India was?

DR. TUCKER: That was a lot. Okay, 

and you did a good job of summarizing where we 

are with India, so that's helpful. And so we did 

an 18-month transition period where operations 

that had been formally certified under the India 
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organic system could directly apply and get 

certified through USDA certifiers.

And so first to the conversion rate. 

Before we ended the recognition arrangement, 

there were a little more than 4,000 certified 

operations under the India organic standards. At 

the end of the 18 months, that number was 1,200. 

Okay? So it was somewhere between -- and that 

number has continued to increase, so certifiers 

have been certifying those businesses. So that, 

I think, tells us a lot in a lot of areas and I 

think it certainly has had some supply-chain 

impacts. And our certifiers are out there on the 

ground doing inspections to make sure farms are 

actually real.

We meet regularly with USDA certifiers 

that are certifying those farms. We have given 

directives to certifiers for testing for 

shiploads leaving India. We are doing 

surveillance on imports related to India.

We're going to have a team going to 
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India to check all of those USDA certifiers and 

how they're doing on the ground. So we're taking 

a number of actions to really make sure that the 

integrity is where we need it to be in India after 

end that. It was a big deal to end that 

arrangement.

I think the collaboration between 

certifiers working in that country is going very, 

very well. They are exchanging information about 

operations for the purposes of certification and 

decertification, so there have been some 

applicants that have tried to move between 

certifiers and they've all said no. And so I 

think that system is working.

Let's turn to Canada. So Canada is 

one of our equivalency partners and so Canada, 

the arrangement with Canada was developed before 

any of this or the import -- the oversight 

activity started. And so I think at that time, 

we were all open about the fact that we didn't 

know what we didn't know and it was way back in 
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2009.

 And so Canada is what some call a 

global arrangement which actually means that a 

farm can be certified to the Canada standards, 

core standards, and it can be shipped to Canada 

and then it can come here. And so that is one 

of the primary reasons that we have been working 

very hard at a technical level with Canada to do 

supply-chain surveillance and point out where 

some of the challenges are in traceability back 

to Canada. 

Canada's program is smaller than ours 

and so we have been able to really bolster our 

enforcement capability and Canada and U.S. have 

had a number of information exchange sessions 

where we kind of walk through what we do and how 

we do it and why we do it. And so it is an area 

that we continue to talk to Canada about to make 

sure that our systems for overseeing those India 

imports truly are equivalent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn, go 
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ahead.

MEMBER DIMITRI: It was a nice 

reminder that this is sort of like the twentieth 

birthday of the National Organic Standards this 

month. And at that time, like there were no 

federal farm programs available to organic 

farmers. So looking now and we see like 

conservation programs and crop insurance as 

existing for organic farmers is like in its own 

a big win. 

So I wanted to talk about that a 

little bit. I did focus groups with about a 

hundred certified organic farmers over the past 

year. And they listed three things as being 

problematic. So one was technical assistance. 

The other was even knowing about the possibility 

of participating in conservation programs. And 

the other is crop insurance.

And so I have a couple of questions 

and I appreciate your discussions already of 

technical assistance and conservation programs 
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because I think one thing targeted was like the 

lack of knowledge from NRCS field staff. So 

that's really important and I was really happy to 

hear you say that.

But I wonder -- one was the transition 

program is like looking to transition 

conventional farmers to organic. So where do 

they go to look for technical support? They kind 

of go to their collaborative extension person and 

so I wonder how this great graph that Jenny 

displayed is going to serve like existing organic 

farmers and how you see it serving those 

transitioning who have this model of how they 

look at the world.

And then the other thing is crop 

insurance. I guess I've heard from farmer after 

farmer after farmer that crop insurance just 

doesn't work for them. I mean organic farmers. 

And I do think that organic farmers are entitled 

to, given the way we run our agricultural 

systems, like an equal amount of risk sharing as 
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a conventional farmer would be. So I guess I'm 

really curious to see how you see this playing 

out over the coming year so that organic farmers 

have like equal access to farm programs and also 

have equal amounts of risk sharing and access to 

conservation funding.

So I don't know who wants to answer 

that, but thank you, both of you.

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: I can take a 

stab and Jenny can follow up. Yes, so just as 

Jenny mentioned, we expect this list and the map 

that we had to grow. Certainly, we want to reach 

more organizations that reach a lot of farmers 

that we haven't connected with in the past, 

particularly socially disadvantaged farmers, 

underserved farmers. 

You're right that we also have an 

opportunity to reach conventional farmers who are 

going through traditional methods, so cooperative 

extension is very important. 

We also see, just thinking about the 
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wealth of resources that farmers are looking to, 

farm advisors are important. So are things like 

certified crop advisors, PCAs. And so those we 

also see as definite partners to include in the 

network.

I think it is a conversation we see 

and Jenny talked about that the partnership that 

the NOP will have with each of the regions and 

the leads. What we want also is the regions to 

identify who are the right people, right? 

Because they know what's really needed in the 

region. So I think that's a big part of that 

component.

And crop insurance. Crop insurance is 

a difficult one. I know that in the past year 

and the work that we have been doing as we've 

been developing the organic transition 

initiative, RMA is really interested in looking 

at and diving into crop insurance so that crop 

insurance meets the needs of the diversity of 

producers across the country. So that includes 
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small producers. That includes specialty crop 

producers. Certainly includes organic 

producers. So this 25 million is really 

important because it gives additional funds for 

organic farmers, transitioning organic farmers, 

so it's not just for transitioning, but also for 

existing farmers. But I think it's also --

what's important about it is also it's the 

dialogue that we're having. Certainly the 

National Organic Program team and Jenny and I 

have talked a lot about this. We've been having 

a regular dialogue with RMA on how we can support 

at the NOP level, RMA, and the work that they're 

doing ensuring that crop insurance is really 

meeting the need.

I also just want to recognize that 

things like the Organic Data Initiative are very 

important as we gather more data and have the 

numbers for crop insurance. Those types of things 

are very important as well.

Anything additional?
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DR. TUCKER: Yes. I would only add 

that emphasize the partnership aspect of it. Our 

standards team has already provided some and has 

been providing over time training for NRCS folks. 

I think the initiative is also connecting local 

resources where some of our partners are already 

very well connected. And with the NRCS offices 

and this just provides more resources to continue 

to build that infrastructure and long-term 

education.

The Organic Integrity Learning 

Center, again, is a resource that we see lots of 

people with nrcs.usda.gov that do complete those 

courses. It is a work in progress and I think 

NOP will go a long way to continue to build that 

knowledge infrastructure because human capital 

covers NRCS, too.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Thank you, both, 

very much.

 CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Additional 

questions from the Board?
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Amy, please go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. This time around 

my question will be on organic supply teams. I 

appreciate the need and attention given to the 

contributions for growing our organic supply 

teams. I just wanted to provide a little bit of 

background that current farmers and producers are 

experiencing.

Over the past few years, actually a 

sad and serious trend has happened when some 

handlers that are purchasing organic products are 

going bankrupt. And so when this happens and 

it's happened across dairy, poultry, and several 

handlers in grains, it's just really having 

disastrous effects to organic producers because 

when they file bankruptcy, bankruptcy laws now 

allow for them -- the handlers request payback so 

they issue call-back letters. So a payment 

received by a producer within 90 days of that 

handler becoming bankrupt, they have to repay 

this large sum of money. Organic farmers feel 
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alone. They're not necessarily networked and so 

they have these devastating repercussions and I 

do know several have gone out of business just 

because of these handlers filing bankruptcy.

So I would like to make the 

recommendation for vigilance when tackling the 

supply chain. I really encourage looking at the 

entrepreneurial organic producers and allowing 

them opportunities for vertical integration 

instead of letting additional outsiders into our 

program that may not have the same intentions.

I know there's a listening session 

coming up, but I just would like kind of a brief 

update of some of the key markets because that 

was in the organic insider that certain markets 

are going to be targeted. And then also just 

request that additional care and attention is put 

to this process so we don't have too many more 

organic farmer casualties.

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: Thank you so 

much for sharing that and we will make sure that 
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we incorporate and we're taking that into 

account. 

Vertical integration is such an 

important part and it builds -- I mean we talk 

about value add across the board. This is such an 

important part of the organic industry and 

agriculture as a whole.

Yes. So you asked about -- the 

listening session, we really are excited about 

hearing all different, from all different facets 

of the organic community about opportunities for 

pinpointed market development.

So what are those pinpoints? That we 

have heard in the past year, as we've started to 

really have a dialogue and listen to folks about 

what's needed in market development. And I'm 

going to do my best to remember all of them and 

hopefully I will get them all, if not, we'll 

follow up and make sure you've got more.

One is organic grain and feed. As 

we've already talked about and as you've already 
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talked about, the need to increase the domestic 

growth of organic grain and feed is absolutely 

important. 

We also know and you all know and you 

particularly know as organic farmers that an 

important part of organic production is rotation 

crops and to be able to start to develop new 

market opportunities for those rotation crops is 

something that we've heard is really important. 

So things like pulses and stuff like that. So 

pulses and rotation crops is another one.

Organic dairy is certainly another key 

market that we have heard and so we've added that 

to the list.

And then let's see, fibers. So organic 

hemp, cotton fibers is another one. And I feel 

like there's a fifth one I am blanking on. 

Ingredients, of course. Okay.

So again, you know, organic 

ingredients. We've heard this from processors 

who are looking to have more products and some 
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things like sweeteners, for instance, or other 

ingredients are very hard to find, particularly 

domestically.

And so really trying to focus on 

increased domestic production of organic products 

is the key. And so for ingredients, that's 

another piece as well.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip.

MEMBER NANDWANI: I don't have a 

question, but I have an appreciation and thank 

you note. Can I?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please go ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you, Nate. 

So Under Secretary Moffit, if you recall, earlier 

this year when I was appointed on the Board and 

in February we had a coffee table meeting with 

you and of course, Marnie was part of it, too. 

We presented some topics from minority and 

underserved communities and socially 

disadvantaged farmers. We talked about that.

And since I'm serving at institution 
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TSU, one of the topics, I would say about four 

topics we presented and I'm very pleased to see 

that two topics have been already made a lot of 

progress. The one is on the increased funding 

that was in February when we presented. And in 

about six to eight months we see that millions of 

dollars of funding is out there from USDA.

And I'll be very specific, and I'm 

reading out of this here, the first study is about 

the $250 million for next generation farmers. 

Now this is what I call the agriculture. 

However, organic farmers, producers, 

researchers, they can be part of this funding. 

And the results are one of the leading and up to 

$20 million funding can be submitted in each 

grant from $500 to $20 million. And this is 

specifically and I'm reading out of -- that this 

is for 1890 Land-Grant institutions, 1994 

institutions, Alaska Native serving 

institutions, Hawaiian, as well as Hispanic 

serving institutions and insular institutions. 
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And I so a logo, U.S. Virgin Islands 

where I serve underserved communities. Dr. Tucker 

presented slides and I saw that UVI logo there, 

too. So I'm very glad again to see that has been 

really been taken care about this increased 

funding.

The second point we presented about 

the technical assistance. And like Carolyn 

mentioned also and I sort of -- Dr. Tucker 

mentioned about underserved and technical 

assistance, so organic is about using own farm 

resources as we all know. We have a beautiful 

cooperative system across Land-Grant -- I mean 

institutions across the country. Use the 

existing resource, cooperative extension 

faculty, extension agents, and they can reach out 

to really do the grass work level work we did in 

underserved communities. In each county, they 

can go and help them in terms of technical 

assistance.

One example I like to also give and I 
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will end here, at Tennessee, also we started 

collaboration with NRCS and other multi-agency 

partnerships about two years ago. And they call 

it organic champions. All agencies they come 

together, NRCS and as well as the university and 

we have this beautiful program which we started 

and we are reaching out and providing this 

technical assistance to organic producers 

specifically.

So with this, I'll end here and like 

to say thank you very much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier, did you 

have a question?

MEMBER ZAMORA: I do. Well, I've got 

several comments, but a couple of questions. 

I know it's really hard for us, right, 

trying to fix the organic production of what's 

going on in a domestic way. But alone having to 

police staff that comes from other countries, so 

you guys have your hands full. And we appreciate 

that. Sometimes, when policing is not correct, 
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it makes things very difficult for domestic 

growers to succeed.

Having said that, Jenny, I have had 

the pleasure of having you at the farm a couple 

of times. I really appreciate that. It's always 

an honor. 

So you have seen that keeping a 

diversified farm, a mid-size scale like mine, it 

is very, very difficult. And labor is just so 

expensive, not to mention housing for my 

employees.

I'll just give you a little example. 

In California, as growers and as employers, after 

you have more than 25 employees, you have to 

provide many other things including paying 

overtime after 8 hours. When you have 48 

employees, it's just thousands of dollars that we 

can't quite really get selling our strawberries 

for the price that we normally get from any 

broker.

Is there anything that the USDA is 
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working on to help mid-size, small growers with 

housing their employees, and maybe helping out 

with offsetting some of the labor costs? 

 I'll give you another example. My 

bringing strawberries to Sacramento and to these 

areas from Watsonville, three hours away, last 

year, my fuel cost was about $34,000, $36,000. 

This year so far it's over $90,000. And I'm not 

making -- I'm not selling my strawberries for $10 

more a case. We're hurting a lot and I wonder 

if there's something down the line that is going 

to help us mitigate some of those issues.

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: Thank you 

for that. And yes, so for those who are looking 

to bring on H-2A employees, we are developing a 

program. We're actually, I think we're still in 

the listening phase, but maybe if we've stopped 

receiving comments I should check on our time 

lines and I we can make sure we get back to you 

on that.

But we are developing a program to 
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help offset some of the costs for employers, 

particularly small employers, who are bringing 

H2-A employees and that can include things like 

housing. It will really depend on what we hear 

from folks of what is needed to be able to offset 

some of those costs. So we do have that coming 

down the pipe and we'll make sure that we get 

information to you on that, on that program.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee, please go 

ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you. 

Given the context of many proposals by this board 

on excluded methods and the recent Executive 

Order for Advancing Biotechnology, could either 

of you speak to the nuts and bolts of practical 

possibilities for advancing the NOSB's unanimous 

recommendations on this issue through the greater 

USDA?

DR. TUCKER: So nuts and bolts, I'll 

jump in on that, nuts and bolts. And so I 

appreciate the question. I also appreciate all 
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the work that has gone into excluded methods and 

so Rick asked a question along these lines 

earlier, so I think I do want to emphasize the 

appreciation for the collaborative work that has 

gone into that and over the years and the ongoing nature of the conversation.

So what does that look like now? And 

I'll zoom out to sort of the broader question of

what happens to an NOSB recommendation when it 

comes to us because I think there have been a lot 

of questions about, okay, how about how are 

living along NOSB recommendations. 

And so this is essentially a 

collection of recommendations from the Board 

related to excluded methods. And so when we get 

those recommendations in we'll review that as a 

program. We review all recommendations also in 

light of other programs within AMS or USDA that 

may have a stake in those topics. And so 

certainly excluded methods touches on areas that 

other parts of USDA care about. You talked about 
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the Executive Order which emphasizes sort of 

interest in harmonization and definition.

I do want to be clear that we talk 

about the term GMO. But what we're talking about 

in the regulations is excluded methods. And I 

think it is very important to remember that 

distinction. I have now searched the regulations 

several times. It doesn't actually method 

genetic engineering and GMO. It's about excluded 

methods which is a broader category and I think 

that's important context here.

So when I talk about well, how does 

the program feel about GMOs, I point to the regs 

and what they say about excluded methods because 

that is really the baseline for anything related 

to this topic is that definition.

The recommendation that we got from 

NOSB does have some pretty specific terms and 

terminology. So I do think that with the new 

Executive Order, given the interest in 

harmonization of definitions, should that 
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recommendation move forward would take some of 

that discussion with other folks who are defining 

those terms to determine kind of how do others 

define those terms and what does that look like.

So I think the nuts and bolts are we 

are in that kind of analysis process. The 

Executive Order is fairly new, right? And so 

that is something I think we're also getting our 

arms around in terms of what does that actually 

mean in terms of the nuts and bolts of execution.

So I think we will continue to review 

that recommendation and see what the best path 

forward is given the Board's intent with that 

recommendation.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

from the Board?

Carolyn, please go ahead.

MEMBER DIMITRI: So kind of cool to 

have you both here to ask all these questions to 

things that are on my mind.

So I wanted to talk about the climate 
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change memo that the NOP gave the NOSB kind of in 

the context of when I think of where a lot of the 

best research on organic has taken place is 

actually at USDA. And so I was -- when we 

received the memo, I looked and I thought wow, 

these are kind of strange questions to put to a 

board here of mostly people -- mostly farmers and 

a couple of researchers. And so also along those 

lines I've noticed that the people who are 

working on organic within USDA are either 

retiring or they're probably going to retire like 

in the next five or so years, just speculating 

based upon their ages.

So I wonder what is the plan within 

USDA to like bolster of the research part that 

supports organic because I think of like farm 

policy, you have like policy. You've got the 

government. You have the farming and you have 

the researchers and they kind of all work 

together.

So either Dr. Tucker or Under 
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Secretary Moffit, I'd love to hear your thoughts

on that. Thank you.

UNDER SECRETARY MOFFIT: Yes, such an 

important question and certainly the Organic 

Research Initiative is such an important 

component of that to make sure that we continue 

to have funding. And so, you know, I know that 

the 2018 Farm Bill was very important and the 

Organic Research Initiative to continue funding 

that.

As far as a research agenda, I'm sure 

we have one specific, but I should definitely 

connect with my colleagues over in Research, 

Education, and the Environment and have those 

conversations. I know there are new folks there 

that are -- do have organic background. It's 

wonderful that people retire, but yes, you know, 

certainly we lose some really great institutional 

knowledge, and so wanting to make sure that 

there's good overlap will be really, really 

important.
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And I also know that certainly across 

the board at USDA, we have a regular climate 

meeting so across all of our agencies we're 

meeting. NOP has representation in those climate 

meetings, so we have a dedicated person as well 

as, of course, our standards, marketing, and 

regulatory programs. So organic is very 

integrated into the work that USDA is talking 

about when we're working on climate together 

because, of course, organic is an important 

climate component for climate for agriculture. 

I also just want to recognize that a 

couple of months ago, we announced that climate 

smart-commodities, the first round of the 

climate-smart commodities and there were -- those 

do have components of research as well as adding 

in conservation practices, other practices, farm 

practices, but then also market-place 

development. And I was really glad to see that 

there were many proposals that were funded that 

have an organic component as well to those.
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So it's continuously -- we're 

continuously making improvements in that, but 

certainly those are a few areas where we've made 

some good progress and we have more to go and I 

will definitely connect with my colleagues to 

make sure that -- to see how we can further 

connect on our organic research agenda as a whole 

at USDA. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

that question, Carolyn. 

I think that there's a lot to say 

about how so much good work has been done within 

the USDA and we have to almost educate people 

about what treasure they have in their own house. 

So thank you, Under Secretary.

If we don't have any other questions 

for the Under Secretary, we have Jenny one for 

all three days. So I think we're good on 

questions. We'll go ahead and break for lunch. 

And we'll still give ourselves a full lunch, so 

come back at 1:45 and we'll jump into CACS. All 
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right, see you all back here.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 11:58 a.m. and resumed at 

1:25 p.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All Board members 

are present. We're going to kick off with CACS. 

And with that, I'm going to hand it over to Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: All right. Thank you, 

Nate. Welcome back, everybody. First off, I want 

to thank all the members of our Certification, 

Accreditation, and Compliance Subcommittee. The 

Subcommittee is comprised of a lot of diverse 

viewpoints and backgrounds, which offers us 

robust conversation on these difficult subject 

matters.

We also do a lot of deliberation and 

comprehensive discussions that generates our 

proposals and discussion documents.

I want to thank you all for your time 

and your contributions to this subcommittee. In 

CACS, we had a jam-packed schedule on really 
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important topics that dovetail directly into the 

aspects touched on by Under Secretary Moffit and 

Deputy Director Dr. Jenny Tucker.

Before we get started, I just wanted 

to also thank the community for your 

contributions via written comments and also our 

public comments that were oral.

We had over 371 references to our 

agenda topics and the written comments alone. So 

that was pretty impressive.

So we had a lot to digest and good 

feedback on pretty much all sides of the 

equation. So I'm really looking forward to 

discussing our full agenda from CACS with the 

full Board now.

And without further ado, I'm going to 

turn it over to Kyla and she will be tackling our 

first proposal. Thank you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay, there we go. 

All right. We have fixed the tech.

All right. So the first topic that 
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we're going to be talking about is the NOP risk 

mitigation table. CACS has a recommendation here 

to the full Board that the NOP revise the risk 

mitigation table to include the areas outlined in 

the proposal.

And the NOP incorporate the risk 

mitigation table, NOP 1009, into the procedures. 

So just a little back story on this agenda item.

NOP sent NOSB a memo on November 18th, 

2021, asking us to review the risk mitigation 

table that was developed in response to the 2020 

peer review conducted by ANSI.

The table seeks to document the ways 

NOP safeguards impartiality in the delivery of 

services, according to ISO 17011. At this 

meeting, CACS puts forth their second -- or our 

second proposal, that incorporated stakeholder 

feedback from the spring 2022 meeting.

And we request that the NOP revise the 

table to include those areas that were either 

missing, or needed a little bit more detail. All 
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of the public comment that we received here for 

this fall meeting was in support of those 

additional areas being included in the table.

There were several comments that 

acknowledged this is a great first step, but that 

the conversation needs to continue, related to 

conflicts of interest within the certification 

system.

The CACS did outline a few areas that 

were outside of the scope of this particular 

agenda item, but that could be future work agenda 

items.

And then additionally, there was also 

a comment by a stakeholder that was requesting 

inclusion in the cover letter, or something 

related to the NOP handbook document, and 

including accreditation policies in the handbook, 

versus within the regulations, citing that the 

handbook is non-binding.

And I just wanted to say that from the 

certifier perspective, that while the program 
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handbook does include that phrasing there, there 

is a mechanism for overseeing enforcement for 

certifiers to comply with instructions in the 

handbook during accreditation audits when 

certifiers are not following items that are in 

that handbook, or other certification emails or 

memos.

205.501(a)(21), which states a 

private or governmental entity accredited as a 

certifying agent under this subpart must comply 

with, implement, and carry out any other terms 

and conditions determined by the administrator to 

be necessary.

And I speak from personal experience 

that PCO, during a prior -- few years back, 

received a noncompliance related to 2603, which 

is instruction for certifiers on how to implement 

certificates.

And that was what was cited to us, and 

we had to, you know, fix how we were noting some 

dates.
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So it was not a big deal and we 

submitted our corrective action plan and are in 

compliance. But there is a mechanism to ensure 

that certifiers are following documents that are 

in the program handbook related to certification 

and our accreditation.

And with that, I will open it up for 

questions.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

Kyla from the Board? None? Where's the 

excitement, folks? All right, well, if we have 

none, we do have Logan on the line. Oh --

MEMBER SMITH: Logan has questions.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, Logan, do 

you have any questions on the risk mitigation 

table?

MEMBER PETREY: No, I do not.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Did 

you have any Amy?

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, I just had one. 

Thank you, Kyla for your work on this subject and 
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also for the clarification in regards to the 

handbook.

We've actually seen several public 

comments in relation to different topics on our 

agenda, discussing how much authority the 

handbook has versus regulations.

So in this particular piece, it looks 

like there is some teeth to the handbook. Okay. 

That's just my concern that so many of our 

policies exist in the guidelines and not 

necessarily in regulations.

And that's, I believe, a common theme 

that goes under the umbrella of consistency. So 

as long as we can have a consistent approach, I 

think we're better off as a community, especially 

on conflicts of interest.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions or comments before we go to a vote? 

All right.

So the CACS recommends that the NOP 

revise the risk mitigation table to include the 
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areas outlined above, and that the NOP 

incorporate the risk mitigation table, NOP 1009, 

into their procedures.

We had a motion by Kyla Smith, 

seconded by Nate Powell-Palm. And with that, 

we'll go to the vote, starting with Jerry. And 

everyone, please mic, and hold the mic real 

close.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay. Jerry votes 

he's.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. 

Javier?

MEMBER ZAMORA: Javier votes yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison?

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian?

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip?

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.
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MEMBER SMITH: Yes.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes yes. Oh, and Logan, please go ahead. All 

right. Well, I think we lost Logan for the text, 

it will have 14 yeses and one absent.

MEMBER PETREY: I'm sorry. Can you 

hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, go ahead, go 

ahead.

MEMBER PETREY: It just kicked me out 

but I got back on right before. Something 

stopped my video and held that until I get things 

fixed. Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. All right. 

That's the first vote in a hybrid meeting, folks. 

And it works. So here we are. All right. With 
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that, back to you, Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, 

Nate. Thank you, Kyla, appreciate your work on 

that again. Now we will move to Jerry to 

introduce our next proposal.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please.

MEMBER D'AMORE: I was facing the 

wrong way. Thank you very much, Amy. The 

proposal here is for Human Capital Management, 

NOSB Technical Support.

This proposal had its origins in the 

Fall 2020 discussion document titled Human 

Capital Strategy for Organic Inspectors and 

Reviewers.

Then during the Spring 2021 meeting, 

the NOSB considered a discussion document on 

human capital management titled Supporting the 

Work of the NOSB.

Next, through the work at 

subcommittee, the seven core activities of the 

NOSB were considered, and five support activities 
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were put forward.

All written and oral comments from the

Spring 2021 Board meeting were supportive of the 

call for support for the NOSB, but were not devoid 

of concerns.

With much of the comments entering 

around, or centering around where should the 

support come from, and two, how does the NOSB 

protect its autonomy in the process.

So not surprising, these same two 

concerns were among the key discussion points 

during subcommittee debates. The Fall 2022 

written and oral comments addressing NOSB 

technical support are closely aligned with the 

comments coming from the spring session.

This time, there are -- were about 21 

stakeholder comments with a pretty even split 

between oral and written. Again, there was not 

a single comment against some form, and I'm going 

to emphasize that, some form of technical 

support.
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However, again, there were many ideas 

and concerns regarding how that support should be 

delivered.

The uses regarding -- the issues 

regarding from where do we draw our support and 

how can we safeguard overruled autonomy remained 

among the key concerns.

So at this point, I'd like you to 

permit me just to read the first two sentences of 

this proposal with my own emphasis given. 

Subcommittee proposal, CACS recommends, 

recommends that NOP proceed with an initiative to 

provide technical support to the NOSB.

CACS further recommends that the 

source of technical support come from within the 

USDA but from outside the AMS/NOP. So from my 

perspective, in one sentence, I can just say we 

are asking for technical support, and we are 

recommending that NOP go about providing it.

I guess I would add that there's an 

interesting point to me that was discussed 
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earlier today.

And that is if this proposal were to 

go through, would be subject to an annual review 

and budgeting process, and -- which gave me 

comfort because there's nothing that we couldn't 

be doing to perhaps restructure what we are 

planning, or what comes out of this.

So I think some of the chief concerns 

have been, from the stakeholder community, a --

born of a misconception that I should have 

caught, that we are not trying to deliver a 

finished document to the NOP on exactly what is 

to be done.

And that is not the case. We're just 

stating that we do believe we need technical 

support, and that they go about providing it. So 

I'll leave it at that and ask for questions.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Ask for questions.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions 

from the Board for Jerry?
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MEMBER NANDWANI: Sir?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, go ahead, 

please. Go ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Jerry, this 

is beautiful. Can I ask a quick clarification 

sort of a question, probably you have discussed 

within your subcommittee any areas of expertise 

you have identified that you are recommending to 

NOP to provide TS? Thank you.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Well, you know, 

well, okay. Well, thank you for that. Now you 

have -- let's -- to answer that question, let me 

then read the rest of the proposal, and then go 

back to an earlier piece in the document.

So I'll read this fast. CACS 

recommends that the NOP proceed with an 

initiative to provide technical support to the 

NOSB. CACS further recommends that the source 

of technical support come from within the USDA, 

but from outside of the AMS/NOP.

This part's new. Technical support 
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staff should not draft proposals or discussion 

documents, initiate polls of stakeholder groups, 

or communicate on behalf of the NOSB or any 

subcommittee.

Technical support should attend all -

- excuse me. Technical support personnel should 

attend all meetings relevant to their topics. 

The NOP should serve as the administrator of the 

support staff, but not task the staff directly.

So now, I'll go back to your question, 

if I may, and I can't look at you without -- okay. 

So we in the document that's in this handbook, 

did consider as said, and what I just said, the 

aspects of what we do.

And there's seven of them. They're 

in our PPM. And I can do them fast if you want, 

but I will get to your question, which is what we 

came up with in consideration of the duties that 

we have as NOSB members.

As we would suggest that the support 

team could conduct literature reviews, and 
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prepare summaries for Board members to support 

their work, review technical reports, prepare 

summaries of public comments for Board member 

review, draft language for proposals and 

recommendations based on Board member input.

Does that help?

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes. I wanted to 

specifically ask like you are -- you have 

discussed about let's say biotechnology, where it 

is an accreditation, where it is about all the 

topics within our, NOP, the framework. That's 

what I wanted to clarify on that. Thank you. 

That's helpful.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Well, I'd like to 

answer your question but I'm a little bit shy of 

understanding what it is.

The, you know, the proposal that may 

come forward is -- there's a smorgasbord of 

offerings before us if this comes through, from 

which we as individuals will say I could use that.

I, for instance, could seriously have 
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used a person that would have taken me through 

forms, told me where to find information, and 

then help me put that -- with my words, put that 

into a form that would pass muster going up the 

line.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Excellent. Thank 

you.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, Mindee, 

please go ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you. I'm 

compelled by the many and varied public comments 

on how we should go about receiving support and 

whose jurisdiction it lives in, and what the 

politics of all of that means.

And I -- so I feel hesitant in a sense 

of what the public has said to us about this 

proposal. But I also feel like we have to live 

in the practicalities of getting assistance.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: And so are we 
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clear that this is something that we can do in 

the immediate sense, and work towards adjustments 

as we experience how the assistance comes to us/

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If it's all 

right, I'll punt that one to Jenny Tucker to 

explain how we're thinking about this.

DR. TUCKER: Thanks. Okay. How 

we're thinking about this, and I really 

appreciated the Board's work on this, is you 

know, right now, we do fund through a cooperative 

agreement, technical reports.

This would become a different kind of 

project. The way we see it is likely some type 

of interagency agreement, where we establish an 

agreement with another USDA agency.

So it might be NIFA, it might be ARS, 

it could be ERS. We've not begun those 

conversations yet because we wanted to see kind 

of how this process played out.

So if -- should this pass, that would 

be our first kind of internal conversation is 
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figuring out who to approach within USDA, where 

this would live.

It needs to be an agency that -- and 

this is a little bit of a tall order. It would 

have been a tall order if it were outside too. 

So the challenges are the same.

We are appropriated on an annual 

basis. So just like our cooperative agreements, 

except for the top cooperative agreements, most 

of our cooperative agreements, because they're 

through appropriations, are only for one year.

And so we're talking about staffing, 

you know, a small pool of people that can provide 

board support within an agency that's willing to 

go year-to-year with funding.

So we would write up a statement of 

work, which describes the activities that would 

be done and how it would be done, and then have 

an interagency agreement with them.

They would then lead to the work. 

There has to be a balance between autonomy and 
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accountability. Right? If taxpayer dollars are 

coming or going towards this from the NOP's 

budget, we'll ultimately be accountable for did 

it work or not.

And we want the group to have the 

autonomy to do what is needed within kind of the 

legal limits of what federal employees can do. 

And so all of that will be -- and those limits 

would be the same as what an external group could 

do.

So again, no difference there in terms 

of potential legality of scope. So that's, I 

think we've never done this before, so this will 

be new. And so we'll learn what -- and I'll keep 

the Board posted as we're learning through the 

system of who to approach, how to approach, and 

what that kind of agreement looks like.

I like the balance of another agency 

within USDA because actually, that supports 

autonomy because then if people have questions 

about well, how's the work going, I can say oh, 
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go talk to them. Right?

Whereas if it's a cooperative 

agreement, it's external, I'm more on the hook. 

Whereas it's internal, actually, it's a good 

balance of accountability and autonomy.

So that's probably -- we've been 

thinking about this a fair amount, as this has 

moved on. So does that answer the question?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: It does for me. 

Thank you. I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

MEMBER D'AMORE: May I step back in?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Because the question 

asked prompted me to want to be a little bit more 

explicit about what you commented to, which is 

the extent of stakeholder comments, and often, 

you know, the degree of force they had behind 

them.

Two things to say to that. They were 

all extremely well done, extremely well thought 

out, and very consistent with what's been said on 
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earlier iterations, particularly the spring

But the thing that really impressed 

me, and you might ask me why it impressed me, is 

that those comments as they came in, were 

extremely reflective of the same kinds of debates 

we were having in subcommittee.

So that somehow gave me a sense of, 

you know, we're on the right track. This is, for 

me, the hardest thing is to try to satisfy 

everybody in this one, because there are great 

ideas, and the idea of a -- of how many different 

services could be provided, you know, becomes --

it's sort of like Christmas shopping, you know.

So anyway, so thank you for that and 

I'd just like to reiterate that I think the 

stakeholders were quite exceptional in their 

response.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, thanks. Just 

wondering, there's the specification that the 
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source of technical support come from within the 

USDA and I'm just wondering, in my mind, it would 

be better not to limit to the USDA but to have it 

open to other very knowledgeable and helpful 

sources as well.

And so I'm just wondering if that's 

possible.

MEMBER D'AMORE: I'll take a crack at 

that, but it's going to lead right back to Jenny 

Tucker, because my recollection going through 

this process is that it -- it's not just that it 

may be easier to fund internally, but it might be 

the only way it works.

And if I've overstated that, please 

help me.

DR. TUCKER: This is one where I'm 

just going to be direct. We need to pick a lane. 

It will need to either be kind of an external 

call for proposals, or an internal interagency 

agreement.

I will, just as sort of it was a bit 
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of a trial run, when we put out a call for 

proposals for the original human capital work in 

2020, this was one of the potential project areas 

that people could propose against, external 

groups.

This was a group of activities that we 

could have gotten a proposal against, and no one 

submitted a proposal or any expression of 

interest from the outside community. And I think 

that's why we've kind of been leaning more 

towards the internal route for that.

That's part of the reason is --

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

DR. TUCKER: And there have been no 

takers on that. Like I haven't even gotten a 

call saying hey, you know, we might be 

interested. Can we talk to you about it. No one 

has contacted us with interest in doing this in 

the external community.

And you guys have been talking about 

this now for, what, two or three meetings. So 
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no one's come out of the woodwork externally, 

which is why from my perspective, the internal 

direction that the Board is kind of -- that some 

on the Board have been moving toward from a 

logistics perspective, made a bit more sense, 

just pragmatically.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. And --

MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you very 

much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. Okay. 

Allison, please go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. To me, 

the primary value of this proposal would be 

opening access to Board's service for folks who 

otherwise wouldn't have the capacity.

And for that reason, I'd like to sort 

of hear more thoughts, I guess, on the reason for 

saying that the support staff could not draft 

proposals. I'm thinking of my experience 

studying in Italy and trying to write a paper in 

a second language for me, having someone 
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proofread it for me and laugh, and ask why I said 

things certain ways.

And I was like, well, I was doing my 

best. So the time commitment to draft something 

originally, even if you know what you want to 

say, the writing process could be really 

cumbersome and a barrier to service.

So I think that could be an important 

role for support staff, and I see that being 

balanced with wanting originality, wanting our 

own work and own thinking on subjects, but I think 

if someone were to prepare a draft that then a 

member reviewed and made sure it captured the 

essence, that could be really valuable.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If I could take a 

stab at that. I think when we look to this being 

an iterative process, so we're going to give it 

a go for a year with the appropriation and see 

how it goes.

In thinking about how we keep the 

independence of each Board member while providing 
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support, I think we have to wait to see what it 

looks like to be able to flush that out.

In the original writing, and please 

correct me if I'm wrong, Jerry, the goal was to 

try to create this balance where we did have 

autonomy for both members, and not undue 

influence from the program, while, as you're 

saying, giving meaningful support.

So folks who come from various 

backgrounds will be able to participate. So I 

think at this point, we'll have to wait and see 

what we're comfortable with in an iterative 

fashion with the program and the Board over time.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Perfect.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn?

MEMBER DIMITRI: I mean, I guess I 

want to speak to what happens if you have a paper 

that someone takes the first draft, and then you 

edit. And I do this all the time. I collaborate 

with other researchers and I find that it's 

really hard to like keep my own authentic voice, 
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if someone else takes that first pass at 

something.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

MEMBER DIMITRI: And I think 

especially if we're going to be partnering with 

other USDA agencies, it will be very hard to 

maintain impartiality if we're not really the 

first ones taking that initial draft.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Sounds like you were 

on the subcommittee.

MEMBER DIMITRI: And I read a lot of 

papers.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure. And Carolyn, 

thank you for editing some of my works. I really 

appreciate it. You got a lot of talent there.

Just a quick note, so this is a very 

unique proposal because this is not destined to 

go to rule making like a lot of our other 

proposals. So I was just curious for an idea on 
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timeline if this was to pass, timeline on 

implementation.

DR. TUCKER: So once we get an 

official recommendation, you know, you guys have 

been working on this for a while.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

DR. TUCKER: So it would be -- we've 

just started a new fiscal year, which is good in 

terms of planning. And so we -- my first step 

would be to brief the undersecretary and talk 

about next steps, and approaching other agencies, 

and how best to go about that.

But yes, I would see that certainly 

happening rapidly. Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Please go 

ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: And is this 

something that if the person comes from within 

USDA and it -- can they go through like our new 

member board training in a way, to like make sure 

they're really up to speed on how we go about 
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doing our business?

DR. TUCKER: We would have to have --

so, let's -- as long as we're getting in kind of 

devil in the details here. First, you know, I'm 

going to guess there aren't people just sitting 

around, oh, yes, I could be immediately freed up 

to do this work.

So whatever, you know, agency we work 

with would then need to go through some kind of 

recruiting process and figure out what mechanism 

by which we would get the folks, the human capital 

onboard to do this.

So that process may take a bit, a bit 

longer because that involves getting fulltime 

equivalents approved and all of that kind of 

stuff. And there may be creative hiring 

approaches that we can use for that.

Then we would need to really think 

about an on-boarding process, so I would assume 

that would include a combination of learning 

center courses of the new board orientation, 
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talking with you guys.

We would need to -- you know, we 

haven't done this before, which means we have 

lots of good options for designing it. So I 

think we would want the Board to help in figuring 

out whatever that on-boarding and training 

process would be.

So yes, new ground for all of us.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Any more questions?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Also, do you 

think you could be comfortable if we look at it 

from the perspective of, you know, our 

subcommittee members chain of co-collaborating on 

all drafting of proposals and we're just really 

committed to each other's success in that way.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

MEMBER JOHNSON: I love that, Mindee. 

Yes, I was just trying to formulate a question or 

a though around what kind of process we could 

have in place to continue to look at how it's 

working amongst us, as well as the NOP doing that 
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over time to figure out, you know, what works and 

whether we would want to, you know, keep this 

framework or shift it over time.

But it sounds like there would be an 

opportunity to do that through the appropriations 

process every year, and an interest in just 

making sure that it's working for folks.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

questions or thoughts? All right. So we have 

the subcommittee proposal. It was motioned by 

Jerry and seconded by Kim Huseman. And with 

that, we'll go to a vote. So we're going to 

start with Javier.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Oh, wow. Since 

someone like myself or perhaps someone older than 

me in the future would benefit from this type of 

support that could very well come this way, I say 

yes. It's needed.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

you. Allison?

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.
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MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes yes.

MEMBER D'AMORE: And Jerry votes yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And Jerry votes 

yes. Sorry, we're going to get this down.

MEMBER SMITH: That's 15 yes, zero no. 

The motion passes.

MEMBER D'AMORE: I'd like to do -- I 

mean, I'd like really to thank this group. 
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There's a discussion that took place here that 

only could have taken place in this room now. So 

thank you very much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And I was just 

told it's going to be 15 yes, zero no, zero 

abstentions, and zero absences. All right. And 

with that, back to you, Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thank you, 

Nate. Jerry, thank you so much for your sincere 

approach to that topic. I really appreciate it. 

Good discussion as well.

All right. Moving on I will have the 

clicker here. Our next topic is the acreage 

reporting proposal. A couple things to note 

before we dive into this proposal is one, this is 

another unique proposal that isn't destined for 

the traditional process of rulemaking like some 

of our national list items are.

So the discussion that we have here 

today is very important. Secondarily, this 

proposal was the aspiring of collaborative 
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effort, so I really appreciate Nate's involvement 

in this.

And I'll introduce the topic, and 

Nate, feel free to jump in with additional 

pointers and comments as we go here.

After we get done introducing this 

proposal, I also want to, before we open it up 

for a full Board discussion, I'd like the farmer 

members of the Board to also comment on their 

experiences and thoughts on this, and then we'll 

open it up to full Board discussion.

One added bonus, I did create a few 

slides just to walk us through the process, and 

I really appreciate the contributions from some 

of our Board members to the pictures. So please 

enjoy the pictures as well as the information. 

Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If I could just 

give a quick shout out to Amy. She's like I'm 

tired of using stock photos, I hear we have 

farmers on the Board. And there's this massive 
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dump in a text string of the most beautiful 

farming photos you've ever seen. So enjoy, 

folks.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. My only 

disappointment is I didn't have more slides here 

today to share all these pictures. It was just 

overwhelming. But you will see the rest of them 

some other time. So thank you.

Okay. Without further ado, okay. 

Just a little bit of background for this 

oversight to deter fraud topic. This has been 

on our working agenda for a year now, and it's 

been presented in many different forms.

Today, the themes from the community 

that really helped generate this proposal was 

just the concepts of modernizing enforcement 

mechanisms, continuous improvement and 

enforcement, and consistency in certification.

So the current state in regards to 

this topic is inspectors currently do not have a 

consistent tool to identify production capacity 
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concerns up and down the supply chain. By having 

a quick look back, overselling can be flagged and 

quickly examined.

The proposal, and I'm highlighting 

this a couple times because the scope of the 

proposal is actually very narrow. So the 

proposal is CACS recommends that the NOP require 

certifiers to list a certified operations 

harvested acres by crop type, and the total acres 

in the operation on the organic certificate.

The goals of this proposal, number 

one, consistency that all certifiers are 

deploying the same approach, consistency amongst 

certifiers will enable consistency at inspection 

timeframe.

Enforcement, increase robustness of 

mass balance audits during inspections. Conduct 

aggregated mass balances of regions or countries. 

And then compliment the full supply chain audits 

that we are aware that are coming through the 

SOE.
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Additional fraud prevention tools. 

This is a subset of the proposal that there can 

be now reconciliation of sales versus production 

throughout the supply chain at inspection and 

potentially identifying those overselling 

moments.

One more time, in scope on this 

proposal is listing on organic certificates, 

harvested acres by crop type and total acres. 

Also highlighted in the proposal, and we heard 

from several commenters that we need to think 

about special consideration or helpful taxonomy 

for small producers.

Oh, and I just love that bumper 

sticker. Thank you, Rick. That's some avocado 

joke here, but okay.

Okay, and before we go to the next 

slide, I just want to highlight a few of the 

comments in support of this proposal from our 

community. And I don't have a slide. I'm just 

going to read a few highlights here. And then 
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we'll proceed with the remainder of the slides.

So in support, we heard from several 

certifiers, ten farmers, two farmer inspectors 

that supported the proposal. Four advocacy 

groups, and two additional certifiers supported 

the proposal, but requested the proposal to have 

flexibility to small growers.

Currently, some certifiers and 

farmers are doing this, and one actually has been 

doing this for ten years. It's -- these are some 

direct comments from our community.

One commenter felt like it's low 

hanging fruit in the battle against fraud. 

Another commented the ability to cross-reference 

certified acreage with contracted volume, assists 

with risk mitigation in the supply chain.

In the best practices for verifying 

traceability in the supply chain, ACA stated that 

a solution to transparency is that certifiers 

should submit all data on organic acreage to the 

NOP.
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And then one pretty candid comment 

from a farmer was if you're not for it, then what 

do you have to hide. So that was a pretty direct 

comment from a farmer.

Then on the other side of the 

perspective, comments with limited support, or 

comments with concerns, we heard from a few 

certifiers, one trade organization, and a couple 

farmer cooperatives in regards to limited support 

or concerns.

Some did support the proposal for 

collection of this information by certifiers and 

inspectors, but had concerns for the availability 

of this information being on the certificate, due 

to confidential business information.

One group was okay to collect total 

acres, but due to the complexity of large produce 

farms, not recommending collection of harvested 

acres by crop type. Some were concerned with 

taxonomy and the consistency for classification 

of crop type.
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And other requested that they were 

just interested in understanding if having this 

information on a certificate would truly mitigate 

fraud. And then there were a couple commenters 

that just weren't interested in making this 

change at all.

So that's -- we did have the full 

perspective of comments there. So now, 

continuing on with the slides that are prepared, 

is just a reiteration that acres on certificates 

have been successfully implemented already.

And then lastly, to close, here's the 

slide on the discussion and vote. So a 

reiteration of the scope of this proposal. Now, 

I'm going to turn you over to Nate for additional 

comments.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well, 

let's see if anyone has any questions on that 

real quick. Any questions from the group?

MEMBER TURNER: I have a question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please, go ahead.
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MEMBER TURNER: What's a guy got to 

do to get in the slideshow around here?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: You got to be 

quick on that.

MEMBER BRUCH: I know I should have 

included you. Well, I should have included 

everybody. I know everybody gets so many text 

messages, but yes, next time.

MEMBER TURNER: I have another 

comment after growers.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please. Oh, yes.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Should we open 

it up for the rest of the growers to speak? Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please go ahead, 

Javier.

MEMBER BRUCH: Javier, I see you 

shaking your head.

MEMBER ZAMORA: This is a good one 

that I think maybe a few growers out there might 

be against it, or might get a little scared when 

it comes through. Sometimes thinking that is 
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your personal information and everyone would know 

about it.

I can personally tell you as a grower 

that our certifier has been doing that for quite 

a few years now, and many other entities, you 

know, our community, like the ag inspectors, even 

CDFA, already request that we do that.

So I mean, like if you're going to 

sell like a farmer's market, you even list, you 

know, linear feet on how many pounds you will be 

harvesting from X crops, you know, once I mean, 

every week or every -- twice a week, whatever it 

is.

So that information is already being 

taken from the ag commissioners, from the CDFA, 

which is the state entity, and our certifiers. 

So I'm all for it. And I, again, there is --

there might be some issues there, I hear their 

concerns, but if you RMA, if you are getting 

insurance for your grains or your strawberries, 

you're already telling them what acreage, and how 
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many, and when.

So that information is out there. I 

believe that it's helpful for the smaller farmer 

that is having to deal with maybe a larger entity, 

the -- I think it helps mitigate some of those, 

you know, fraud, if you will, that is happening 

and it's putting some farmers out of business.

Again, as a farmer, I really don't 

have a problem with it and I think it would be a 

benefit for smaller and family-owned farms. So 

very well done. I hope I see us say yes to it.

MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Javier. 

Chris?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, yes. Sorry, 

go ahead.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes. So I'm for 

it also. I reported it through my certifier for 

15 years now. I had mentioned when we had the 

oral comments last week when someone brought up 

some of the problems, and again, in the avocado 

industry, we have high density growths that 
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produce way more fruit than the older ones that 

are ten by ten or 15 by 15.

But I think that's easily sorted out, 

at least in my industry, because the certifier 

can look at the trees and say okay, I see why you 

have more fruit than someone else. So I'm for 

it.

I mean, hasn't been any problem at 

all. We, as Javier said, give that data to the 

state, we give it to the county, and we give them 

crop projections. And so, no, I think if it 

prevents any sort of fraud, and I think that's 

one of the issues.

Nothing we do will be absolute in 

terms of preventing fraud. I think we have to 

think about that. These are little areas, any 

more than we've ever been able to prevent crime. 

We have lots of crime bills, and we still have 

crime.

But the tighter we make the system, 

people maybe won't think about it. So I see it 
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as a deterrent more than anything else.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's jump to 

Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: I apologize for not 

getting you my certification. I also am on a 

very small scale and am already reporting this 

information to my certifier. And it doesn't make 

my job any more difficult or less difficult.

It's -- I think it actually makes, 

helps make me a better farmer to keep this type 

of information and records from year-to-year. 

And I agree with everything that everyone else 

has said. Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan, if you're 

there. Do you want to jump in?

MEMBER PETREY: I do. I do, thank 

you. Can you hear me?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can. Please 

go ahead.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay. Great. 

Because I didn't have the raise hand option. So 
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thank you. I do have a question. I was 

wondering, okay, so sometimes acres change and -

- like on a yearly basis, or within the year, or 

right before.

And so I just didn't know which -- we 

do this, you know, with our certifier, we have 

crop, you know, we have acres on there listed. 

I didn't know how specific things could be 

narrowed down to or what that looks like.

Because I mean, you can go from having 

a potato program lined up, and then it not 

happening. And so curious as to what we're 

looking at as far as how can it deter fraud if 

the farmers' plans change because things happen.

So I'm just curious on that. Because 

we may put our entire -- the farm may be in corn 

for grain. And that's just an assumption. And 

then the price isn't set right and we don't have 

that production happening.

So just curious, I mean, if you could 

explain that.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Could I take 

that, Amy? So for certifiers who are currently 

doing this, that's a phone call. Just updating 

your OSP, sending them a note, and then putting 

it back.

They'll update it in their system 

allowing them to then issue you a new PDF 

currently. Did you want to add anything to that, 

Kyla, or any questions/

MEMBER SMITH: I would just add, based 

on some of the public comment, that there was 

comment that some certifiers may charge for that, 

so I'm not sure how -- I don't know if that's 

true or not, but that was what was in the public 

comments.

So just want to put that in there that 

I would hope that it would be a pretty 

straightforward process, and -- but they're, you 

know, that -- it could not be as straightforward.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Real quick --

MEMBER PETREY: So it's like acre 
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reporting after you're done planting?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Acre 

reporting after you're done planting.

MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If you have to 

replant, having that opportunity for an OSP 

update.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, did you 

want to jump in there as a farmer as well? Okay. 

Javier, please go ahead.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes, I was going to 

say, Logan, so you have several opportunities to 

revise things. If you get your whole revenue 

insurance, you do your planning, and then you 

have a revision a couple of times, you can change 

that.

On cases like ourselves when the OSP 

is changed, you get on the computer -- not me, 

because I'm not really good with the computer, 

but I can have somebody help me and do that really 
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easy.

The state level, you do it exactly the 

same. You change acreage and you change the 

crops that you planted, the amount, fairly easy.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Liz, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Is this the -- an 

appropriate time to ask about what the discussion 

might be for how this might affect smaller 

growers?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. I'll jump 

on that real quick. So that's the primary 

dissent is how do we deal with diversified farms 

that are growing a lot of different varieties of 

crops, and especially very small acreages, so 

that we're not listing to 0.005 of an acre.

And so we -- this is a proposal that 

we're saying the information capturing acres on 

certificates, or certificate addendums, is an 

idea that could be helpful for preventing fraud. 

How it's actually implemented into the CACS --
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into the OID with the federated certificate will 

be a process then owned by Jenny, number one, and 

her team.

And so with that, Jenny, could you 

give us a little bit of an idea how, for instance 

this were to pass, how we would then expect it to 

move through your system.

DR. TUCKER: Yes. This one is really 

interesting because I think it also touches an 

awful lot of infrastructure that already exists, 

as well as some elements that are certainly being 

-- were in the strengthening organic enforcement 

proposed rule and that were probably supported.

So first of all, right now, the 

organic integrity database, which launched in 

2014, does allow reporting of acreage at both a 

operation level, and a what we call a product 

level.

And that product level is driven by a 

taxonomy in the organic integrity database where 

you could, for example, report acreage at, you 
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know, mixed vegetables, or fruits, so it can be 

categories as well as products.

And that taxonomy has actually held 

its own for the last, you know, six years or so. 

And so there are certifiers, we get that acreage 

from about right now, approximately half the 

certifiers are reporting that acreage to us, 

either at the operation level, so the total 

certified acreage, or they're reporting it in 

both ways.

So they're reporting it at the 

commodity level, as well as the overall level, 

and those acres don't add up because you might 

have multiple crops over the course of a year. 

So your acreage by commodity may be different 

from your total acres.

So the system already does a fairly 

good job of handling that data. So -- and a few 

years ago, I do want to comment how much the 

culture has changed among certifiers over the 

last few years.
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When we first built the organic 

integrity database, the permissions were set so 

that certifiers could only see their own acreage 

that they entered. A few years back, when we 

started having import oversight challenges, we 

made acreage visible across certifiers, and that 

has really helped in the enforcement work.

So now certifiers can see the acreage 

for other operations in the system, and are 

sharing information for the purposes of 

certification and decertification. That is not 

public at this point in time.

There's also, in the organic integrity 

database, a certificate. It's called the 

federated certificate. And so the strengthening 

organic enforcement proposed rule has -- did 

propose a federated certificate that everybody 

would use.

We also proposed making acreage 

reporting mandatory, and that idea was very well 

supported. So you have all the ingredients here 
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where honestly, technically, there are two or 

three things we have to consider.

Number one is simply designing the 

form so you can take the acreage data and plot it 

on the certificate. That's a basic reporting 

function in a database. That's not hard. We 

can do that fairly easily.

The question is more of a policy one 

of is this business confidential information or 

not. And so and how does that change the privacy 

level of the organic integrity database.

Now the research agencies do consider 

acreage to be business proprietary information, 

and therefore, it can't be reported for an 

individual farm. Based on this group's work, 

we've already had some internal conversations 

that suggest that, well, okay, the research 

agencies consider that business confidential 

information, and they may have some regulations 

that say it is.

But you're operating for a completely 
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different purpose. You're an enforcement 

agency. You're a regulatory agency. And if you 

deem that for effective regulation of the organic 

program, you need to put acreage on certificates 

and make it public, there's a strong argument for 

doing that, but you have to justify how that 

aligns with your rules.

So that will be both a policy and a 

technology process to see, A, it would be a 

problem to upgrade the privacy level of the 

database because that changes access permissions. 

And so there's a bunch we got to figure out with 

that.

There is the policy question of 

business proprietary information. But I 

actually feel encouraged about conversations I've 

had on that route. We do have the ability to 

share information for the purposes of 

certification and decertification.

The question is can you make that

individually public. So there's some 
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conversations to be had on this, internal to 

USDA. If I had seen some real showstoppers, I 

would have told the subcommittee that before we 

got to this point.

That might have been more data than 

you wanted.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's exactly --

I think there's something to be said that we have, 

from the get-go, been asking these questions. 

And I think, to Amy's credit, in being really 

interested in fraud prevention, how do we 

identify things that are actionable.

Three meetings ago, Amy, we had the 

organic links document.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And that was too 

far. We didn't have the infrastructure to make 

that happen. And so working our way back, asking 

questions like could we have acres on 

certificate, off of which then could be built a 

more robust system. The answer was yes.
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So that's why this has gone forward. 

It hasn't gone forward without deep dialog with 

the program. Kyla, please go ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Thanks, Amy and Nate. 

And Jenny, for your response there as well. I'll 

be really curious to see what plays out with this 

CBI sort of ruling since, you know, we've heard 

from, you know, some farmers, and some 

certifiers, but certainly not all the voices 

because they don't engage in NOSB process.

So I'll be interested on that topic. 

And then the other thing is -- and based on what 

you just said, Jenny, I guess I don't know if we 

need to know this right now, but I think, and so 

long as it's maybe flexible on what -- on how we 

are defining crop type.

And if we're needing to go down to the 

varietal, I think that would be very challenging 

for certifiers to implement. And -- but if we 

can keep it a little bit higher up in the 

taxonomy, I think that would be easier for 
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certifiers to implement.

And then I also am trying to think 

creatively about how we approach the smaller 

producer, or the very diversified producer with 

very small acreage, and thinking about, yes, just 

how we can get creative with that so that we're 

not having to enter in, you know, very micro 

acreages.

But really, for me, I think it's 

mostly just a data management problem that I 

think that we can find a solution to.

DR. TUCKER: There are a lot of moving 

parts on this, and we don't have a final SOE role. 

But let's say, just hypothetically, and I'm just 

purely hypothetical here because this rule is 

still in clearance.

So hypothetically, if there were a 

federated certificate and we put acreage on the 

federated certificate, I don't see where -- given 

where we are with the organic integrity database 

and its maturity at this point, I don't see us 
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changing the taxonomy.

So even if we move to a federated 

certificate, I do think, and we've said this, 

that there would always be a role for an -- for 

a certifier to have a supplemental data, just 

like many of them have right now.

So there might be a federated 

certificate that confirms that organic status of 

the business, and then has some high level kind 

of taxonomy that builds on, or a taxonomy -- are 

we going to go down to Roma tomatoes? I don't 

think so. Are we going to go to tomatoes or 

mixed vegetables? Yes. Those are in a taxonomy 

now.

So for anyone who's interested in the 

taxonomy, it is published. Our data standards 

are published, so you can see what those are. 

That taxonomy has worked -- held up very, very 

well. So I don't see that changing. So I do 

think that the specificity would be at the 

certifier level, not the federal level.
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MEMBER SMITH: If there was feedback 

from the certifier community to change parts of 

the taxonomy, would NOP be open to that?

DR. TUCKER: We're always open to 

feedback. There's an awful lot of people who 

have now built connections into our database, and 

they would all -- if we change it too much, like 

adding is easier.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes.

DR. TUCKER: But changing is harder 

because a lot of folks -- a lot of certifiers 

have actually adopted the taxonomy into their own 

system. So I don't want to rock their world too, 

too much.

I also want to, that taxonomy took a 

lot of work, it was a grounds up, looking at the 

actual data in the database at that time, and a 

top down, looking across all the different 

standards that existed at the time. And that's 

what led to it.

And there are a lot of other programs 
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who have picked up on our taxonomy. So I want 

to be very, very careful not to break something 

that's actually working pretty well.

And of course, we're always open to 

feedback.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One thing -- oh, 

yes. Go ahead. I was just going to talk about 

the cover letter. So I just wanted to --

MEMBER BRUCH: Can I jump in first?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, please. Go 

ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Just a couple 

points before we talk about cover letter and Liz, 

your topic that you just brought up. Kyla, I 

wanted to just respond quickly to your first 

comment about, you know, not hearing from voices, 

and this perhaps is all voices.

And just kind of a push to the 

community, definitely when we have any work 

agenda items, I know not everybody participates 

in our meeting, but reach out to your network 
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that you do touch, and try to aggregate the voices 

of the unrepresented so we can get their voices 

heard during these meetings.

It's really important if you're a 

certifier, if you're an advocacy group, or a 

cooperative, et cetera, reach out to your direct 

contacts and network and please bring that 

information forward to us.

Secondarily, Rick's comment on 

multiple tools, I think that's just a good common 

thought process. I think Undersecretary Moffit 

mentioned just this holistic approach to problem 

solving.

I think we do this as farmers on our 

weed management. We have a systems approach for 

weed management. We have a systems approach for 

nutrient management. We also need a systems 

approach for fraud mitigation.

So this is one tool in the toolbox. 

It might not solve all our problems, but it's 

kind of an iterative process. So I think this 
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is really important when you think of it in the 

big scheme of applying other options.

We did hear from that one buyer during 

our oral comments, that this has stopped two 

cases, or it stopped the transaction from 

happening. So that's really important to take 

note of.

But there are limitations. That's 

why I try to reiterate what the scope is. It's 

a very narrow scope.

And then lastly, I want to just kind 

of leave with you a thought. If we do transition 

to this federated certificate, meaning every 

single certifier is presenting their certificate 

in the same way, we have to take note, this is a 

unique proposal.

Some people, some certifiers are 

actually requiring this information. So what do 

we tell them if we do not vote for this? Are we 

telling them to take a step backwards and be less 

transparent? Or are we trying to bring up the 
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rest of the certifiers for consistency and bring 

them forward.

So we need to also think kind of the 

big picture, do we want to take a step back, or 

a step forward. Thank you, Nate, I'll turn it 

back over to you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. I 

just want to give a shout out to the tough 

collaboration in this process. When someone 

comes out -- so to be quite frank, this is no 

burden on farmers. I'm not going to be burdened 

by this, Amy's not going to be burdened by this, 

Kyla's going to be burdened by this.

And the collaboration that had to go 

into figuring out how can we, you know, talk this 

through to the point where we feel comfortable 

with it, and we've heard each other, and we feel 

heard, takes a lot of chit chatting. A lot of 

extra meetings on CACS. We added an entire other 

CACS meeting this semester because there was so 

much to talk about.
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And so I just wanted to thank you, 

Kyla, for the deep insight and Amy for leading 

such a hard charge. Kim, please go ahead.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, thank you.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: And thank you to the 

livestock committee for giving up some of their 

time to the CACS.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Big burden on 

you?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: This has been a 

great, robust conversation and one that I haven't 

taken lightly. I think that when we look in the 

space of indicators to help flag for, you know, 

potential problematic behavior, I want to make 

sure that we are not looking at this tool as, say

an end all to be all on this.

It was mentioned that approximately 

half of the certifiers are reporting it. But if 

you look at the overall representation of who 

commented, the percentage that certifiers that 
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did comment, did we even get over half of the 

certifiers themselves to comment.

So we do have a pretty small 

population that gave forth some information. 

When I look at product flows, there's some 

products that flow in a very small region within 

a five mile zone, within a ten mile zone, a two 

mile zone.

And there's some that travel across 

distances of 1,000 miles. And when entities are 

given the same information, but it might load on 

a reefer that goes 500 miles west, and then on a 

second reefer that flows 500 miles east. Those 

could be different inspectors that may not be 

able to connect the dots.

And that's where my hang up comes in, 

is when I look at this, is just to remember, as 

Amy pointed out, a tool in the toolbox. But if 

we're looking to be robust in how we want to 

handle this -- to handle fraud, I can't put it on 

an inspector to connect the dots and say because 
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you are in this one region where this one person 

sells, you should be able to make that 

connection.

So I just want to reinforce that, is 

the end user who might be holding onto the 

certificate, and their looking at that because 

they bought from that entity, is the onus on them 

when the next thing they get is a revoke of an 

entity's certificate, because they chose to take 

that product when that matched up to what they 

bought.

But it didn't match up when they sold 

that exact same certificate to five other people 

in different regions. And then that was brought 

up in public comment to was what is the liability 

to the end consumer, the end user, the end 

purchaser when something is detected but they had 

that information at their hand.

So I wanted to bring up those two 

points. You know, Rick, your comment that 

nothing that we do will absolutely deter fraud, 
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there's always bad actors. That really -- that 

resonated with me as well because you're 

absolutely right.

There's -- when there's bad apples, 

there's bad apples. Right? And it doesn't 

matter if it's in -- in what industry. It's what 

we can do, the best that we can do it.

I think transparency is key. I'd 

actually like to know if this information can be 

used as an aggregate for other reasons. You 

know, but that's a longer conversation. But I 

guess what I'm trying to say is we hear from the 

fruits and vegetables, and the smaller producers 

that this tool may not be as effective as it could 

be for a grain -- or a grain producer.

Or if we start talking in the segue of 

livestock as well, has been brought up. I'll try 

to stay on topic and not get too far off here. 

But I just want to make sure that we look at this 

as a solution or as an indicator for everybody, 

not to target or deter one type of a farmer than 
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it would another, or a certifying body than 

another.

Because there's some certifiers that 

only, they're expertise is in one area. And 

others, their expertise is in another. So keep 

that in mind as well.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

thoughts right now? Carolyn, please go ahead.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Great, thank you. 

This is a very complicated topic and I sort of -

- it's hard for me to get past what Kyla was 

talking about like the burden on certifiers for 

like the smaller scale producers.

So I guess this is more for you, 

Jenny. Like say this passes, and then I guess 

you're sort of tasked, or your group is tasked 

with trying to implement this somehow. So like 

are you -- would there be some kind of rule that 

if the producers, like if it had small enough 

acreage or certain types of things where you 

could just put like one aggregate, like two acres 
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rather than having to break it down the way Kyla 

was mentioning.

Because I feel like this problem is 

probably -- it's more problematic for the larger 

scale operators. Right? Because they can 

introduce more fraud into the market. So it 

seems like if you're going to run around and chase 

down every half acre or one acre producer, like 

that seems to me like a waste of taxpayer dollars.

But in any case, I'm wondering what -

- are you thinking about trying to accommodate 

like the smaller scale producers in a different 

way? And what might that look like?

DR. TUCKER: I think I would like to, 

timing-wise, we are, I believe, getting very, 

very close on that. So we -- I'd like to see 

what the final version of SOE actually does, and 

then fold this into that.

And so at this point, you know, SOE 

could change based on OMB feedback. And so I'd 

like to see that process through, and then figure 
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out how to fold this recommendation into it.

Ultimately, I don't think we need more 

rulemaking to implement this. I think we can 

implement this through training with certifiers 

where we talk about risk-based approaches to data 

reporting

And honestly, for the certifiers who 

are reporting acreage, a lot of them have figured 

this out already. They've been reporting acreage 

using our taxonomy now, some of them for years. 

And so I think taking advantage of their kind of 

best practices on how they're doing that 

tradeoff, would be the beginning of talking about 

it and getting everybody on the same page as to 

the heuristic of having to think about it.

So I would like to -- this is big and 

I think people have really pointed out the touch 

points. I'd like to fold it into the SOE 

implementation and training aspect so it's all 

one package.

Thank you. So we'll probably hear an 
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update at a future meeting.

DR. TUCKER: I would imagine so.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

thoughts, questions? I want to respond a little 

bit to you, Kim, and -- but before I do, I wanted 

to talk about we have the opportunity with every 

proposal to submit a cover letter, where we try 

to better articulate what our intention is, given 

the feedback we've heard.

And we really hear the small 

diversified produce community saying, and the 

certifiers that help those folks manage all that 

data, saying that we're not the risk you're 

worried about. And that's true.

Where really risk is coming from, 

grain operations, it's coming from commodities. 

It's coming from storable crops. And so we'll 

be very encouraged to send in our cover letter 

that we should set a minimum acreage per crop. 

Something like if it's smaller than one acre, 

then we would say that should be said we don't 
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get smaller than one acre in the reporting on 

this certificate.

Other points, like that -- did you 

have anything else to add to that, Kyla? I know.

MEMBER SMITH: That we, yes, weren't 

thinking to go down to like the varietal.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. So, music 

to our ears from Jenny. So not Roma tomatoes, 

but tomatoes, and not Alzada wheat, but wheat. 

And that getting, again, at the heart of what 

we're trying to do is figure out where we can 

fill that toolbox to fight fraud, and not 

unnecessarily burden participants and 

stakeholders.

Did you have something, Carolyn? 

Okay. Kim, to your point, when we're thinking 

about, you know, how do we use this tool, going 

back to the organic links that Amy put forth a 

few meetings ago, this is just a foundational 

block in a much bigger house that we're hoping to 

build.
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And in collaboration and in continuity 

after SOE comes out, I think that this gives us 

a tool to have more options for where we want to 

go, we gather more data to figure out what would 

be an effective tool, and build future proposals 

off of that.

So I think that, if I read between the 

lines, you're saying that this isn't very 

impressive, and I totally agree. It's not, and 

that's why I think we can just keep going, folks.

And so we have, with the amount of 

text, we know it's not that impressive. It's a 

small step forward, hopefully, to a better 

system.

DR. TUCKER: May I point out 

continuous improvement really does happen one 

step at a time, at sometimes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We appreciate 

that. Yes. All right, folks. Any other 

questions or thoughts? Anything to wrap it up, 

Amy?
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Oh, you have a liability question. I 

can't answer that.

MEMBER BRUCH: I assumed as much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. I think 

it's a really -- it's an interesting question. 

There's, you know, there's constraints within 

this system as it exists today that are 

disheartening in a way because there isn't that 

big hammer to discourage buyers from not doing 

their due diligence, or to encourage them to do 

their due diligence.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes, I just wanted 

to reiterate that point that came from public 

comment. I had it highlighted just to bring it 

up again, as a reiteration.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. We 

appreciate that. All right. So without further 

discussion, we're going to cruise onto a vote. 

You all are very fast when you just start going 

off with the yeses or the nos, so I'm going to 

call your name, and then please give it so that 
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we give Kyla a little break with recording it.

So this subcommittee proposal, CACS 

recommends that NOP require certifiers to list as 

certified operations harvested acres by crop type 

and the total acres in the operation on the 

organic certificate.

It was motioned by Amy Bruch, and 

seconded by Nate Powell-Palm. And with that, 

we'll start the voting with Allison.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian?

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip?

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla?

MEMBER SMITH: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim?
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MEMBER HUSEMAN: Giving Kyla time to 

get caught up.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Liz?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood?

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn?

MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes yes. Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry folks. 

Jerry?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier?

MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Early days. 

We're going to get this right. I promise.

MEMBER SMITH: That's 15 yes, zero no, 
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zero abstentions, recusals. The motion passes.

MEMBER BRUCH: All right. Thank you 

so much. I'm glad we had enough time to really 

have the discussion needed on that topic. It was 

very important and I really appreciate 

everybody's contributions there.

Nate, did you want to move to a break, 

or do we want to keep going?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. How is 

everyone feeling? Quick break? Are we good to 

keep going. We have about 40 minutes and two 

discussion documents to get through. Three 

discussion documents to get through. All right. 

Let's break for five minutes.

So it is -- let's come back at 15 

minutes after the hour.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 3:09 p.m. and resumed at 

3:21 p.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We had a little 

bit of a slide jam. So just to make sure we 
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reread the second proposal into the record, CACS 

recommends that NOP proceed with an initiative to 

provide technical support to the NOSB.

CACS further recommends that the 

source of technical support come from within the 

USDA but from outside the AMS and OP. technical 

support staff should not draft proposals or 

discussion documents, initiate polls of 

stakeholder groups, or communicate on behalf of 

the NOSB or any subcommittee.

Technical support should attend all 

meetings relevant to their topics. The NOP 

should serve as the administrator of the support 

staff, but not task them directly.

And that was motioned by Jerry, and 

seconded by Kim. All right, and with that, I 

hand it back to Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Nate. 

Welcome back everybody. We have two more 

discussion documents to wrap up the CACS agenda 

here.
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So currently, I'm going to return back 

to Nate for him to introduce our first discussion 

document on minimum reporting requirements.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Amy. 

It was fun how much input we got on this 

discussion document. And so to remind folks in 

the room, discussion documents are our ideas 

bucket. We aren't voting on these.

So we have two discussion documents 

that we'll go over this afternoon. In minimum 

reporting requirements, we think about in the 

same -- into the same vein of what tools could we 

come up with and equip inspectors, and 

certifiers, and the community with, in order to 

try to identify fraud.

And thinking about consistency, if we 

think that consistency will give us a better data 

set to identify fraud, and hopefully react to it, 

then thinking about how do we, as a community, 

make it so that the data that's gathered on 

inspection and the audits that are conducted on 
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inspection, are conducted in a way that year on 

year, build on each other and come -- and 

ultimately gives us something where we can 

identify patterns and see if there's anything 

that should be presenting itself as a red flag.

So in this -- in the feedback we got, 

there was a lot of folks, very consistently 

saying, actually, there are certain groups very 

consistently saying they hate universal forms.

And interestingly, I thought who fell 

into what camp fascinated me. So inspectors 

really love the idea of a universal organic 

system plan. And certifiers really did not like 

that idea.

But then certifiers said, yes, we love 

some universal audit docs, and inspectors said 

absolutely not. So as someone who appreciates 

both sides, and I probably like tip my tribal hat 

into the inspector camp, certifiers, you're all 

so poky about this. You go as slow as OSP 

business.
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But we didn't actually say anything 

about universal OSP's really in this document. 

We talked about it a little bit in our climate 

change discussion document. So it was 

interesting how much everybody jumped on that 

one.

So we want to acknowledge that that's 

out there, but that the -- I thought the greater 

takeaway was we need instructions as to how to 

better conduct audits, especially as inspectors.

Better specificity about what 

timeframes should we be looking at. How do we 

ask consistent questions that over the course of 

three years, of three different inspections, we 

get the same questions asked in a way that builds 

a dataset.

I've done a few thousand inspections 

in the last 13 years, and I have gone and done 

what I thought was a bang up job on an audit. 

And the farmer then looks to me and says, wow, 

I've never done that before in my 20 years.
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And that should not be said. We 

should be able to get rid of that phenomenon where 

it is so different or so inconsistent between 

inspectors doing this work, that the farmer 

doesn't even recognize that it's the same 

exercise.

So in thinking about what's our take 

away from this draft of the document, I want 

everyone's thoughts on this, but the first thing 

that comes to mind is that we need to get a better 

idea of where -- what juice is worth the squeeze. 

What questions should we be asking that actually 

result in data useful for tracking fraud and 

identifying fraud.

And how do we formulate those 

questions. How does the International Organic 

Inspectors Association help train inspectors to 

ask these questions. How do we get good 

instructions to inspectors across certifiers, and 

how do we get inspectors better educated about 

individual crops.
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One of the coolest ideas, I thought, 

to come out of this discussion was from our 

colleague, Logan, who said do you all have a 

lifecycle example of how you raise broccoli in 

the south? And I'm like no. No, we don't.

And should we? Absolutely. And so 

as part of the human capital RFA with NOP, the 

organic agronomy training service did come out 

with a grain raising 101 for inspectors.

What is the lifecycle of grain, what 

are the tools involved in grain, what are the key 

areas that we should be hunting for fraud in 

grain. And it would be so neat if we could do 

that for all crops, in all regions, and really 

build this library of enabling.

That enables inspectors to go to any 

part of the country or world and know, generally, 

where they should be looking, what questions they 

should be asking, how they should phrase those 

questions.

But probably more important to our 
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discussion document, how they should write the 

answers in order to relay them to the certifiers, 

so the certifier can track them in a very 

consistent way that makes it so that they can 

either build a case against a fraudster, or 

really raise red flags that maybe can be 

resolved, but hopefully, help us track better 

fraud.

So with that, I want to just open it 

up to questions. This is sort of -- it's an 

exciting idea of how do we identify better tools 

at this stage in the process.

Who has some thoughts? Amy, you go 

first.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay, Nate. Thank you 

for introducing that discussion document and I 

hope everybody will have the chance to chime in 

and offer your points of view, either in relation 

to the comments we received, or your personal 

points of view would be helpful.

You know, this one is interesting to 
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me when I look at the growth of our entire 

program. We're a $62 billion industry and a 

global program, and I think, Allison, you brought 

up in the last discussion about clear 

communication and just understanding kind of, you 

know, terminology and different things like that.

I think we need to all work 

collaboratively to find where we can be 

consistent so then the expectations that 

producers are meeting are, you know, consistent 

as well.

I think -- I heard a lot from public 

commenters and the written commenters, I read 

about just loss, potentially, of farmer 

creativity and approach if we push for some 

standards here and there.

And as a farmer, I think we need to 

consider maybe two buckets here. The what and 

the how. Just because the what is consistent in 

what we ask people, doesn't mean the how, or the 

approach a farmer used to satisfy the 
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requirements, needs to be consistent.

So I think we need to also internalize 

that. I can still have a customized approach to 

a common form. So you know, the feedback was 

very, very large, I guess, in terms of finding 

common themes, but I do think there was a common 

theme centered around minimum requirements with 

the understanding that there's some customization 

that can occur.

So I thought that was a really good 

takeaway, and then it's a second time that we've 

heard that from the community. I think it's just 

determining next steps with this document.

We had a different, like Nate said, 

different range of what forms that we wanted to 

see as consistent. So there's not maybe 

something that rises to the top on a form from my 

opinion, outside of there was some folks that 

wanted consistency with bills of lading.

Others wanted consistency with 

organic system plans, or DMI calculators. So we 
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really need to look at the core components of 

what we can do to just move forward the idea of 

consistency, just to have better results.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions 

from the Board? Wood, please go ahead.

MEMBER TURNER: I can't really 

compete with what you just said, Amy, it was 

great. But that's really a great way to sum it 

up. But I just wanted to say two things.

One, the way you presented this 

document just now is phenomenal because it's 

really helpful, I think, to have someone in this 

context sort of lay out in very plain language 

sort of what it is we're actually talking about.

Because I think sometimes we get 

really bogged down in the language of our 

documents, and it's not a question of how well 

they're written or whatever it is, but there's 

just a lot of complexity in some of those. So 

thank you for that.

The other thing I just wanted to say 
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is this feels fairly straightforward to me. And 

again, what you said Amy, makes a lot of sense. 

But it is -- this whole process, reviewing this 

and the previous document, was sort of -- has 

been eye opening to me, frankly, in terms of sort 

of what's not being done, what's not being 

captured, the incongruity or the inconsistency of 

people's experiences.

And I just wanted to reiterate the 

point that I think that's a problem and we should 

be, you know, this should be a call to action, 

frankly, for all of us, that this is what we 

should expect from our programs.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

that. The -- please go ahead, Javier.

MEMBER ZAMORA: I think I have a lot 

to say when it comes to that, but it all boils 

down to educating certifiers. One, an inspector, 

so I would say.

I will give you some examples because 

that's how I run, that's why I'm here. In --
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when you have an inspector, you have inspectors 

that have different levels of knowledge. You 

have a seven, you have a six, you have a five, 

and you have a ten, and you have -- sometimes you 

have an 11.

Very knowledgeable. And I'll tell 

you why because I think if you -- I'll speak for 

my area. If you are a strawberry producer, 

sometimes you can produce 3,000 cases of 

strawberries per acre. But there's some other 

organic growers that can produce 8 to 9,000 cases 

per acre. The same area.

But it's just because I use a small 

different varieties, and then my neighbor that's 

a lot smarter than me and is a better farmer, he 

uses big varieties of berries. So his yields are 

really, really high.

But I believe that I've gotten, so 

this is my 11 year, and I've gotten 11 

inspections, and so I've gotten them from a six, 

seven, to an 11 inspector.
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I think it boils down to knowledge, 

knowing whether it's broccolini or broccoli, or 

just a floret or something. So mature broccoli 

and cauliflower. So I'm kind of totally against 

just one standard because the OSP, it's a living 

document that you change and they have your 

certifier, if you're in business for more than 

two, three years, you already have a record, and 

they know exactly what your operation is like.

So therefore, if you are trying to 

create something that is very minimum, would 

allow growers to -- there's just -- I think it's 

just you lose who you are because you are adhering 

to just ten, 20 different questions, versus when 

you have a living OSP, you might have 100 

different questions that you're certifier knows 

really well, and your inspector should be very 

knowledgeable on who she or he is coming to 

inspect.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I just want to 

respond a little bit to that real quick, and then 
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I know you're -- you had a hand up, Kyla. This 

was raised by several farmers on the calls and we 

talk about universal OSP, we're not talking about 

what information does the farmer put in.

We're talking about how are the 

questions asked and how is it structured in such 

a way that, in the idea of a universal OSP that 

covers every crop, every part of the country, and 

is updated in a way that makes it so that it's 

consistent across certifiers.

So it doesn't reflect anything on the 

farmer. I don't want to get too deep into 

universal OSP's because we did not have them on 

any documents -- or on this document. But when 

we think about that certifiers mostly do inspect 

either in multi-states or nationally.

So they're already writing OSP's, 

Javier, that cover your strawberry field, but 

also a greenhouse in Pennsylvania, or a cattle 

farmer in Florida. The document is written in 

such a way that it covers the national law across 
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geographies.

To your point of -- that we need 

better inspector training with more regional and 

local knowledge, I couldn't agree more. And that 

takes a bunch of investment. I think that is a 

deep reflection of the entire project of human 

capital that NOP initiated and we're all working 

on, is how do we get better, more experienced 

inspectors, who are deeply familiar with 

geographies and growing systems in the room.

One thing about universal OSP, and I 

say this with all love to the certifier 

community, when you're saying your forms are 

super unique and they're not checkboxes, there's 

a lot of checkboxes out there, folks. A lot of 

checkboxes.

And I think that in my experience, 

there's so much to gain by collaborating between 

certifiers. I think it's a huge life and I want 

Kyla's take on this, but updating forms, writing 

OSP's, is a major resource sink.
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And so if you're able to find out that 

someone in the certifier community is doing it 

better, not having that be the business asset of 

certification, but rather the service and the 

people involved being the business asset of 

certification.

And so when we think about how to --

we're not addressing this, but just for context 

as we get into this idea, what good could come 

from a universal OSP via that collaboration 

between certifiers and folks who know a lot about 

biodiversity. I think that one came up several 

times.

Informing those who maybe have a 

biodiversity section, and getting the best, most 

robust biodiversity section so that we don't have 

these inconsistencies.

Please go ahead, Kyle.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes, thanks, Nate. 

Yes, so since this was sort of focused firstly on 

audit worksheets, like that's where we started 
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and that's all we had sort of proposed here. As 

a starting place, but then we were talking about 

other things.

So PCO does provide our inspectors 

with audit worksheets. We started doing that, I 

don't remember, a while back. And we noticed a 

vast improvement in audits. It was actually, I 

think it was a finding, actually, at one of our 

NOP audits, that our auditors were not doing 

complete audits.

So we gave them a tool, and they got 

better at it. Are they perfect? No. So you 

know, certainly more education and training to be 

had there.

And we had a resource because I 

believe that there was an ACA best practice 

document that had a template in it. And so we 

adapted that to suit our needs, and that ACA is 

great for that reason. They create lots of best 

practices that include lots of template forms.

So there's a flavor verification form. 
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There's risk management tools. There -- those 

are just the ones that are coming to my head.

So I do think that we can, you know, 

engage with ACA and other groups to come up with 

whatever type of documents that we want. And I 

do think that having the ability to, yes, have 

that baseline but them create them for our 

specific crop types, some of the public comment, 

we heard, you know, maple is very different than 

other types of production.

And so being able to tailor them to 

suit production needs is useful. But going back 

to your point, Nate, like whenever I need to 

create a form, yes, I look to see if there's 

something out there in the ACA land, or I'll just 

check in with some other certifiers and ask if 

they're willing to share their form.

Because it does take time and resource 

to -- resources to come up with forms or edit 

them, or whatever. So I'd rather spend time 

doing other things if there's tools out there.
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So if there's a library of great tools 

that already existed, I would certainly utilize 

them.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Would it be safe 

to say that you'd be out there busting fraud if 

you weren't editing these forms?

MEMBER BRUCH: Trying.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And doing a great 

job. I think one thing that Amy had mentioned 

last week that I found to be poignant, was that, 

and again, farmer, with love to farmers, we're 

not doing rocket science here.

And we're actually not that 

inconsistent from crop to crop. So the same 

steps that go into growing a carrot have 90 

percent overlap with the steps that go into 

growing corn.

And the same for perennial crops. And 

so there really is, when we talk about the 

uniqueness of each region and the uniqueness of 

everything, I think we're doing ourselves a 
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little bit of a disservice not highlighting how 

much commonality there is between growing 

regions, and how much commonality there is 

between all crop types.

And trying to figure out how do we 

cover that commonality before we highlight the 

differences. Anything to add to that, Amy?

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. That's a good 

point, Nate. And it did resonate with me. Prior 

to farming, I actually worked as a system 

engineer for a food manufacturing company. And 

it was the realization there that whether you're 

manufacturing tractors or food, a lot of 

components for verification are very similar in 

those industries, even though the byproduct is so 

different.

And that's what I think of farming, 

I've had the opportunity to farm in many 

different zip codes, and yes, I can point out 

many differences, but I also can figure out a lot 

of the commonalities and that's what gets me 
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ahead.

And I really push the whole community 

for this collaborative effort. Let's focus what 

we have in -- focus on common goals, focus on 

some of what we're similar in to really build 

this consistency because consistency brings 

clarity.

There's a comment in the proposal that 

Nate and I discussed, and I love it. I'm going 

to read it here. Consistency builds trust. 

Consistency allows organic farmers to trust the 

rules are being equally enforced.

And that's a little bit of the premise 

of this documentation. So I just think the 

clearer we can be, I just think that bodes well 

for our community. And being clear means being 

consistent.

Another -- just one other thought that 

I had and this was in the written comments. The 

talk in this -- a little bit, Javier, of what 

we're demonstrating here, you mentioned about 
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kind of minimum requirements and things, and it's 

just to kind of put some parameters in to make 

the gray a little bit more black and white for 

farmers.

So right now, the rules are such that 

you can demonstrate any number of these records, 

and what we're trying to do here is artillery at 

a minimum, the farmer has to produce this set of 

records. If you want to go above and beyond, 

you're more than able to do that.

But at a minimum, we need to be able 

to be clear what the expectations are, clear what 

the definitions of mass balance, and trace backs 

are, just so everybody can be consistently 

audited.

Is it going to be a season, is it going 

to be two years, just so that approach is very 

similar so everybody has that similar experience 

with their inspections. And that's the method 

that determines compliance is this mass balance 

and trace backs.
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So we really need to do farmers a 

better service to say you're going to have to, in 

one way, shape, or another, produce these types 

of documents, because then you're going to be 

validated against this set of mass balance and 

trace back to prove your compliance.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

thoughts or questions on this discussion 

document? The beauty of this is we get a whole 

other semester to do with it whatever we want, 

and add to it, or switch lanes, so thank you, 

Amy, for the work on this.

MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you, Nate. 

Appreciate it. Thanks for everybody's comments. 

We'll go back to work on this one.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, we will. 

And with that, I'll kick it back to you, Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Now to wrap up 

our CACS agenda for this meeting, we have one 

additional discussion document, and I'm going to 

turn it back over to Nate. I can't read your 
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hat. What does it say?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Organic 

agriculture is climate-smart.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn initiated 

a really important -- the most important 

discussion of our lifetimes. And we -- I can say 

that without any ambiguity. Climate change as 

it relates to agriculture, as it relates to all 

of us, is the discussion of our lifetimes.

And so we were tasked with a memo back 

in February from the USDA. So Carolyn wrote a 

great letter, highlighting that organic is 

climate smart. And we want to make sure that 

when USDA is discussing the greater efforts to 

address climate change, we -- they don't forget 

about organic and they think about all that 

organic can contribute.

That spurred a memo from the USDA and 

from Jenny, that said -- that asked some very 

specific questions about -- well, there's 17 

questions, you can read about it in the document. 
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But functionally, when the call for proposals 

came out for climate smart commodity 

partnerships, there were some key practices that 

were highlighted.

And so we were asked what climate 

smart practice is already codified in the 

standards. And with real zeal, we could say all 

of the ones that you are excited about in climate 

smart commodities partnership are codified in the 

standards in various ways.

And so again, when we think about the 

role of this document, it's a bucket to capture 

all of our communities best ideas for how we can 

really pithily or not pithily explain to USDA how 

much we have to offer, and how much we've already 

figured out in this climate change discussion.

What we're trying to do with this 

document is make it a one stop shop to say okay, 

I'm not sure if organic fits, oh, yes, it does. 

We're good to go.

And to make it so that whenever we 
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come up with a new program, a new call for 

funding, a new opportunity, that references 

climate smart, organic is immediately assumed to 

be at the table and is given that opportunity.

From this also, though, we have a 

messaging problem. I'm switching hats now, 

folks. If you would.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Organic is 

regenerative.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: When we think 

about why are we letting this beast roll away 

from us, we are regenerative. We hare climate 

smart. We have all of this figured out and we 

are just really bad at bragging.

I mean, we just can't toot our own 

horn to save our life. So in this document, 

trying to figure out what is -- what are the 

zingers that we can put out there to really get 

the attention of the USDA, to Carolyn's point, to 

say that all of the best or most of the best 

research done in organics and about organics have 
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been done by USDA./

So the gems are in the house. We know 

that USDA has a deep and long-lasting 

relationship with this work, and how can we best 

articulate it.

So we really appreciate that on the 

heels of the climate smart commodity partnership 

grant, a lot of you sent in the work that you've 

been working on all spring and summer long.

And we're excited to incorporate that. 

But we want more. We want to have more 

conversations about how you're articulating the 

ways in which organics is climate smart.

How you are telling your customers, if 

you're a retailer. I see you, Amy. How you're 

telling your clients who are saying I don't feel 

comfortable with pillage. Do I actually --

should I go organic. I see you CCOF and OFA.

So all of these conversations should 

be happening in a much more robust way, where 

we're just throwing everything we possibly can at 
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the wall, seeing what sticks for USDA to be 

convinced that we are such a holistic 

collaborative group, that is going to be an 

automatic fit for anything that they come up with 

out of these climate smart commodity partnership 

grants.

So with that, climate change is a big 

discussion. It seems almost too big. I think 

we've had several colleagues say how are we going 

to address this. So in this document, we were 

given a very specific set of questions. We 

answered them.

Some folks aptly pointed out that we 

didn't talk about water. We didn't talk about 

tech in agriculture. And that's totally fair. 

It wasn't exactly one of the questions we were 

asked.

But they are things that we should be 

highlighting and exploring, how do we become our 

own best marketers when it comes to organics role 

in climate change, as well as, I would say, how 
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do we really claim that -- reclaim that organic 

is regenerative.

And regenerative is just highlighting 

the best about organic. So from that, I would 

open it up to my fellow Board members if we have 

anything to add. Dilip, please go ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Where can I get 

these two nice caps?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I know, right. 

They are very primo. But maybe at dinner. I 

think we need to get one for all the Board 

members. So we'll make it happen.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you. Yes, 

it's just a quick comment, not a question 

actually. Being an organic scientist teaching 

almost 20 years, climate is soil and then soil is 

heart of organic agriculture. So it's 100 

percent pertinent to organic agriculture. Thank 

you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Wood?

MEMBER TURNER: I just would love to 
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hear your thoughts, Nate, on this -- on sort of 

the reconciliation. Maybe you're alluding to it, 

Dilip, and I don't -- I know this is not business 

that's in front of this Board today.

But I want to raise this question 

because I love the thinking on LCA's, I love the 

thinking on economic resilience. But I do think 

we're talking about two different things when 

we're talking about soil based systems versus 

container or hydroponic systems.

And I'm just curious, how you were 

thinking, how the committee was thinking about 

the, kind of the full scope of lifecycle analysis 

when you think about sort of the differences in 

those two systems.

Because fundamentally, we've got to be 

thinking about storing carbon in the soil, and 

the role that that plays in mitigating climate 

change. And so I just didn't see that in the 

document.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And you are not 
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the only one. Again, in this particular 

document, we're responding directly to the 

questions that were asked. And we didn't get a 

question about container or CEA, as it relates to 

this topic.

I think one of our greatest bragging 

points is how we are, first and foremost, the 

best news for the soil. That study after study 

shows that we are storing better carbon, 

increasing water holding capacity, reducing 

inputs across the board, which in turn results in 

more economically resilient farms.

I think we can definitely take up that 

question of how do we or if we do, parse those 

two. What -- we're not comparing apples to 

apples. We're comparing soil to non-soil. What 

attributes about CEA would we highlight, and 

where does it fit in this conversation.

I think right now, we just have a 

really sparse bumper sticker chest, as to our 

taglines that we love best about organic. And I 
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want to fill that chest, and not miss the 

opportunity to highlight any one practice that is 

inherent to organic, that's going to be able to 

sell us to all of the naysayers, and all the folks 

who need just a little bit of convincing.

Allison, please go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. I have 

lots of thoughts and I'm trying to figure out the 

best way to order them for you all. I think this 

is amazing. You did such a fantastic job 

capturing how important organic is as a climate 

solution and how much we already know and already 

have documented.

And I think you've packaged it really 

beautifully, and I hope that the NOP and the rest 

of the USDA can help -- be partners to the organic 

community in conveying that to the rest of the 

world.

I love that it starts, in response to 

question one, the first bullet in looking at 

important points is the climate footprint of 
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energy intensive inputs. And I'd love to see 

that integrated in every single section where 

we're talking about practices.

The number one thing is avoiding 

synthetic fertilizers, avoiding most synthetic 

pesticides. That's one thing that sets organic 

apart from other types of climate smart 

agriculture. So I think it's really important 

to emphasize over, and over, and over.

And the other piece that I'd like to 

see kind of pop out more is around cows. So it 

talks manure management, a little bit about 

grazing, and I think because beef and dairy are 

some of the most climate intensive products in 

our food system, pointing to organic as one area 

where we can make real progress on the climate 

footprint of these products is really important. 

So I'd love to see that echoed back to USDA as 

well.

And then the last point was on number 

six about organic system plans, and ten on tools 
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to help farmers. These are questions about how 

to sort of capture and convey the importance of 

organic for climate. And I'd love to see us turn 

those questions back around to USDA, sort of 

asking questions that hopefully the NOP and USDA 

already know the answers to.

The OSP captures a whole suite of 

practices that are climate friendly, and USDA has 

a role to play in stating that to the rest of the 

world. So I'd love to see that emphasized as 

well.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. I'm 

hoping that maybe we might get another memo in 

response in an iterative fashion, but I don't 

want to hope for too much.

To that point, I think when we talk 

about, and this is sort of getting to wonky 

inspector land, but when we talk about the 

standards regarding animal agriculture, and how 

when we think about what is most damaging about 

animal agriculture.
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In our 205 section of the standards, 

in 205.203, 205.205, 205.200, we have standards 

that if applied to all of America suddenly solve 

the issues of animal agriculture. And I think 

we are deeply underselling how well we've done 

writing those standards and how when effectively 

administered and applied, suddenly, we have a 

much more robust resilient food system that 

doesn't get rid of the hamburger, thank God.

And doesn't get rid of the milk and 

all of the aspects of a really resilient 

diversified farming economy, are preserved. And 

I think that that's the question that we need to 

ask ourselves is how can we tell that story, and 

how can we do our best to explain further in great 

anecdote, with great verve, what we are and how 

we do it in a way that's really easily 

communicated.

And I know a lot of us might say it 

shouldn't be on us to do this work. The USDA 

should know how great we are. And I just don't 
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know if you get on Tinder and do that, how 

successful it will be.

So you want to kind of, we want to be 

able to make sure we put some great profile photos 

and really figure out how to put a beautiful bioline, that gets the attention of the USDA, 

because we are the solution to their forever 

partner dreams.

I'm going to end that analogy right 

now. Carolyn, please go ahead.

MEMBER DIMITRI: So first of all, I 

have to say Nate, your whacky personality just 

did not come across on Zoom. I feel like this 

is a whole new Nate that I didn't know existed. 

This is kind of funny.

It's like fun. Anyway, I also think 

a big selling point of organic that maybe we might 

think about, as we go ahead is as climate change 

continues to wreak havoc on our conventional 

farms around the U.S., that maybe that's an 

opportunity in this transition program, with all 
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this money, to maybe replace some of those 

operations with smaller scaled, diversified, 

certified organic farms. Just a though.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

that. Yes. Did you have your hand up, Jerry? 

Darn it. All right. Thank you. Go ahead.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Okay. Well, I guess 

the other thing, there's been a lot of scientific 

research done all over. We have a lot of like 

amazing scholars around the country that have 

done really great work on organic.

And so I guess like, I think I would 

like to see this forward looking vision instead 

of us sitting here and talking about organic is 

better. Can we just take it for granted and sort 

of where are we going to go from there.

I just don't think getting into 

debates with people over the climate benefits of 

organic, that could go on for decades, and I for 

one think we have more important and more 

interesting things to do.
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And so as -- for this board, I think, 

maybe we can hold a forward vision rather than 

this retrospective one.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Excellent point. 

I think when we look at how -- what buckets we 

have to affect change, we have the private 

market, but agriculture in America is really 

dictated by the federal government's spending 

programs.

And that's why I don't want to leave 

that on the table. When we think about what --

how much money is going to -- how much money just 

flowed out the door. We just had $3 billion go 

out the door, and a little bit of that went to 

organic, an exciting amount, but not nearly 

enough.

And when we think about if there's 

another big spending, how are we always better 

positioning ourselves to be an obvious recipient 

of that money. The solution to those questions 

raised by agriculture.
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So I don't mean to dismiss at all that 

we need to be forward thinking. I just, in 

considering how we capture the attention of 

federal spending the best we can, either forward 

thinking or retrospective, I think we just need 

to figure out what works in order to get the 

attention.

Please go ahead.

MEMBER DIMITRI: That's fine. I'm

hoping Jenny's next memo says hey, tell us how we 

can improve all of these farm bill programs and 

make them work better for organic farmers.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

MEMBER DIMITRI: That's the memo I 

want to see. Begging, Jenny, begging. I'm just 

joking. I'm trying to be funny like Nate and 

it's not really working.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: I totally agree with 

you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Apparently, I'm 

really boring on Zoom folks, so glad you didn't 
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have to stick with me for the last three years. 

Any other thoughts? Again, discussion document, 

we'll have more time to do more with this as we 

move towards the idea of a proposal.

But this is big. This is our -- one 

of our big shots to actually, as Mindee said it, 

create an agriculture system that our kids' kids 

are going to thank us for.

Not that we haven't done it already, 

but let's really scale up and figure out how we 

go big. Anything else? I'm sorry, Allison, I 

just need to scan a little harder. Go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. 

Carolyn's comment just made me remember that I 

wanted to bring up the research section 

specifically.

I think making our case for organic in 

the farm bill and elsewhere is really dependent 

on being able to point to research, to look at 

numbers. And so while I hold the need for kind 

of a qualitative systems non-numbers approach 
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when we think about organic, it's also really 

helpful to have numbers.

And so on the research section, I love 

the section about the climate benefits of zero 

synthetic fertilizer, and it goes on to talk 

about all inputs. But pesticides especially, 

there's very little research on the climate 

impacts of pesticide use, especially fumigants.

But we know that they are substantial, 

and pesticides are also energy intensive to 

produce. So that piece, specifically, I think 

would be helpful to quantify more, to get more 

into literature, and to have USDA specifically 

looking at that issue.

MEMBER DIMITRI: I like to talk about 

this topic. Sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please go ahead.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Allison, that also 

jogs my memory that the OFRF report on organic 

and climate change. I don't know when it was 

published, not too long ago. I think that is the 
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best document that synthesizes the literature,

the existing literature in the U.S. on climate 

change.

So I recommend everyone read it, and 

Breeze is out there, so you can ask her how to 

get it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

thoughts? This is our last item for the day, so 

I don't want to let you go too soon. All right. 

I think this is a real example, though, of how 

we're underselling ourselves.

Mike Dill, how hard were these to 

make?

MR. DILL: Etsy.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Etsy. Come on, 

folks, let's get our Etsy accounts up to date and 

let's get cracking. And this is what we --

spreading the good news of organic is really all 

of our obligations. I don't think it's very 

hard. I think we all are in agreement of how 

great organic is, and we just need to toot our 
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horns a little bit more.

And with that, I think we're done for 

the day. So I'm going to turn it back to Jenny 

for any closing remarks? Are you good?

DR. TUCKER: I wish everyone a lovely 

evening. And thank you so much for engaging 

today, the Board in full, and the audience for 

being here. It's a wonderful first day back. So 

thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

everybody. Adjourned.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 4:04 p.m.)
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

FALL 2022 MEETING

+ + + + +

WEDNESDAY

OCTOBER 26, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met in Sacramento, 

California, at 9:00 a.m. PDT, Nathaniel PowellPalm, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFREY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

CAROLYN DIMITRI

GERARD D'AMORE

LIZ GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

WOOD TURNER
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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

ADAM DIAMOND, Ph.D., Agricultural Economist

VALERIA FRANCES, Standards Division

DAVID GLASGOW, NOP Associate Deputy

Administrator

FRANK HALPRIN, Ph.D., Management and Program

Analyst

ERIN HEALY, Division Director Standards

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist

DEVON PATTILLO, Agricultural Marketing

Specialist

PENNY ZUCK, Organic Policy Advisor

ALSO PRESENT

BRISE TENCER, Executive Director, Organic

Farming Research Foundation

THELMA VELEZ, Research and Education Program

Manager, Organic Farming Research

Foundation
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C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Icebreaker: Takeaway from yesterday's 

meeting ....................................... 5

OFRF update .................................. 19

Q&A .......................................... 46

Materials Subcommittee ....................... 75

Vote to accept the proposal on the 2022

NOSB research priorities (passes) ............ 85

Livestock Subcommittee (LS)

2024 Livestock Sunset Reviews:

Chlorhexidine ................................ 92

Tolazoline ................................... 96

Copper sulfate .............................. 101

Elemental sulfur ............................ 105

Lidocaine ................................... 108

Glucose ..................................... 108

Crops Subcommittee (CS)

Topics: 

Proposal: Potassium hydroxide ............... 118

2024 Crops Sunset Reviews:

Herbicides, soap-based ...................... 128

Boric acid .................................. 132

Sticky traps/barriers ....................... 135

Elemental sulfur ............................ 141

Coppers, fixed, Copper sulfate .............. 145

Polyoxin D zinc salt ........................ 156

Humic acids ................................. 191

Micronutrients:

Soluble boron products ...................... 197

Vitamins C and E ............................ 201

Lead salts .................................. 206
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Micronutrients: Sulfates, carbonates,

oxides, or silicates of zinc, copper,

iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium,

and cobalt .................................. 218

Squid byproducts ............................ 227

Tobacco dust (nicotine sulfate) ............. 231

Crops Subcommittee

Biodegradable biobased mulch film ........... 234
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

(9:02 a.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So we have a day 

chalk full of materials. And lots of times with 

materials come annotations. And we hear you, 

community, that annotations are serve a point of 

inquiry. We want to think about it more. Want 

to do some things with them. We won't be 

addressing that today, but we do hear you that we 

want to be public future work agenda item or 

something that we consider throughout this next 

semester. So, just wanted to acknowledge that.

We're waiting for Logan to jump on

here. As we go around the room, because Jerry 

loves icebreakers, I just wanted a little bit of 

-- I thought yesterday was pretty cool. It was 

very different from what I've experienced before. 

And I think that there's a lot of good things 

happening in our community. And I would just 

like us to open the floor a little bit to some 

reflections of what did you find to be a takeaway 
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from yesterday? What delighted you or surprised 

you or did you think about something we should be 

thinking about for future efforts and future 

work? And let's start with Carolyn.

MEMBER DIMITRI: I'm surprised I 

talked so much yesterday. I guess the one thing 

that really surprised me was how the 

Undersecretary was actually really willing to 

devote so much of her time to our meeting. And 

I found that very touching and supportive. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Agreed. It's a 

very -- I think it speaks volumes that we have an 

organic farmer in that role. And that is a 

reflection of our progress. Wood, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER TURNER: I think one of the 

things that's lost on Zoom is personalities. And 

I think one of the things I enjoyed the most by 

yesterday was just getting a chance to sort of 

see all of your -- see all of your personalities 

and sort of understand what it's like to interact 
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with you as a real person. And that's exciting. 

I mean it's a fantastic -- fantastic thing about 

yesterday. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Liz, 

please go ahead.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: This is all very new 

to me. Very interesting. I also was really 

happy to see the Undersecretary here. And it's 

really been great getting to know all of you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All you, Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate. 

Yeah. For me, I think it's engaging with the 

community that is not in the daily circle. Being 

able to chat not only with people on the Board, 

but people in the community that have also made 

the effort to be here during this week. And you 

know, I think that's been important for me.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm not going to 

surprise you, Mindee. Oh, Logan's on? All 

right. We'll go Mindee, then Logan. 

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes. Sorry, I was 
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actually distractedly saying, "Hi, Logan." 

Thank you. I love the pain of the debate. I 

love that we can go to lunch and get an idea we 

may not have thought of. And I love how hard it 

is to find the path. But for me, that's the 

beauty of democracy is that we're listening to 

people and taking in a lot of information. And 

maybe my opinion doesn't matter as much as I 

thought it did and that we find our way forward. 

So it was really fun for me yesterday.

MEMBER SMITH: I think all the answers 

have been said. I mean I think like ditto, 

ditto, ditto. The one thing that I would add 

maybe is I really value transparency. And I feel 

like since my time on the Board, I've seen the 

program take greater strides in being more 

transparent with the stakeholders. And I have 

really appreciated that, so thanks. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. 

MEMBER BRUCH: Good morning. I agree 

with Kyla. I think everything has been said. 
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New question. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. I'm 

just overwhelmed by the sense of community and 

family that we have both on our Board. It's just 

so nice to be in-person with everybody and then 

with out extended stakeholders as well. It's 

just a fantastic sector of agriculture to be a 

part of and I can't say enough good things about 

it. I really also was overwhelmed by just the 

participation yesterday in the CACS agenda that 

we had. It's really fun in our subcommittee to 

have all these discussions. But it was even more 

exciting to have it as a full Board and hear 

everybody's opinions on our subject matter. So 

thank you.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I think for me, one 

of the few people who have been to the live 

meetings before, how different the hybrid meeting 

feels. The last meeting I went to was in 

Pittsburgh and it was in a huge room with lots 

and lots of people. And there's a different vibe 

than being here today with the audience. It 
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seems more like the last day of one of our inperson meetings. And some of you have already 

been to those. But the work gets done. And 

again, like everyone else says, it's great to 

work with a Board that can discuss things. I 

mentioned GMO yesterday and nobody beat me up in 

the hall or anything and the board members still 

talk to me. So yeah, it's different, but it's 

still very useful. I think it's great.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: To that point, we 

did confirm that we had 77 people online 

throughout the day yesterday. So I think when 

we think about it, it does get very full very 

fast, but also opening it up to folks who weren't 

able to make it seems like progress. 

MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning. Most 

of the things I guess have been already said by 

my fellow board members. Well, the first day I 

survived. I enjoyed. And let me start with 

saying that I was very pleased to see how the 

Undersecretary came to each one of us and met. 
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And she was so kind and humbly greeted us. And 

then the spirit I heard in this room from the 

fellow board members and the support I've been 

seeing. And the wonderful thing I heard 

yesterday in the reception, I was able to see and 

meet and chat with a few of the stakeholders. So 

all in all, it's very wonderful. And I'm glad 

I'm able to see and meet in-person the first 

meeting. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. 

MEMBER CALDWELL: Since Nate is 

making us do this again, I'm going to cheat. And 

I'm pretty sure I already used this one in the 

past at some point. I can't remember where. But 

I'm always amazed at how articulate everybody is 

in these discussions. And I'm going to do my 

best to bring that standard down. MEMBER 

JOHNSON: Good morning. I echo a lot of what's 

been said already and especially appreciated just 

the humanity that everyone brought yesterday. 

You kind of expect that a meeting to be mostly 
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dry, a little intellectually charged, but not 

emotionally charged in the way that it was 

yesterday. I think as we're all coming back 

together and seeing each other as people, so I 

really appreciated that. 

MEMBER ZAMORA: Buenos Dias. Good 

morning. I felt really comfortable. I was told 

that being a new person, perhaps you will be 

cornered several times. I didn't feel that at 

all. And I just see the level of education and 

family feeling that we all have and I really 

appreciate that. I'm extremely happy to be part 

of this process. And seeing some, you know, 

stakeholders that you see when you go to 

workshops and webinars and things like that. So 

muchos gracias.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay, Nate. I won't 

repeat that everything's been said. I want to 

go back closer to where Wood was in terms of what 

he said. And I'll get personal because if 

nothing else, but to repeat. I know that I have 
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a handicap when I can't engage in nonverbal ques. 

I've spent over half my life in places where I 

didn't speak the language or I was an ethnic or 

religious minority. And in those situations, if 

you -- if you can't get the whole of the person, 

you're sort of dead in the water. So what's been 

given to me with this meeting is that I got you. 

I've got non-verbal ques here that say a lot to 

me. And if I may use Wood as an example, I've 

for some reason have had an infinity for him from 

the moment I met him. And then there's three 

years of Wood in a box. And somehow I didn't get 

any pleasure out of that. And --

MEMBER TURNER: You need to work on 

something, I guess. 

MEMBER D'AMORE: No, no, no. So we 

had 20 minutes this morning over a cup of coffee 

and it's like three years was just blown away. 

So anyway, that's my takeaway.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Nate, just one 

last comment. I think the other thing I have 
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enjoyed about this meeting is watching Steve Ela 

in the audience. To me, that's a real treat. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan, do you 

want to jump in here? 

MEMBER PETREY: Sure, yeah. Nobody 

said because I'm having major FOMO. I know that 

you all are having a blast in meeting each other 

and hanging around. And you know, like -- like 

Jerry said about Wood and you know, his 

personality coming out and how Carolyn said that 

about Nate, it is fun to see those expressions 

and to see you guys interact. It is fun. I'm 

looking forward this Spring to being there. And 

so yeah, there is something to meeting in-person. 

I guess we all can be reminded of that, but thank 

you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And just a 

reminder from the program, please speak close to 

your mic and loudly since we have a very feisty 

group next door. So with that, thank you 

everybody.
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MEMBER D'AMORE: So you figure you've 

talked enough that you don't really have to give 

your own?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I was going to 

give myself a pass.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Oh, okay. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It's really just 

an exercise in power up here, not having to talk. 

There's a real energy that I think we bring to 

this question. Someone said it well yesterday 

when they said we need to take the work seriously 

and ourselves less so. And I think that there's 

a lot to say about how much we -- how heavy of a 

weight we carry. Because we do carry -- we do 

care so much. And we often times, I think, 

expect this community to solve all the problems. 

And I love that aspiration, but it can be heavy. 

And I think when we get together and we get to 

see each other again, that we get to be reminded 

of how good the work that we do is. How much 

we're getting done. And how together, we're 
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going to get done so much more. So I really 

appreciate being able to see everyone and being 

able to reflect with you all for a minute.

And with that, we're going to get 

today kicked off. So we have talked a lot about 

research. How do we talk about the story of 

organics? How are we getting the credit that 

we're due? And to speak a little bit to that, 

we have Brise Tencer with OFRF. And I'm going 

to hand it over to Wood for a little introduction. 

And then we're going to hear from Brise.

MEMBER TURNER: Yeah. And I'll just 

saw as the Materials subcommittee chair, you 

know, I inherited this subcommittee chair after 

Dave Mortensen transitioned up the Board a little 

earlier than we expected. And it's taken a while 

for me to sort of really understand what the 

charge of this -- of this subcommittee is and 

what we really do. And we certainly, I would 

say, opened up a lot of conversation in the 

committee about research priorities and sort of 
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what they're really intended to do. 

Are they -- are we just -- are we just 

continuing to roll over research priorities and 

don't really have necessarily any sense of sort 

of what's happening with them? What's the 

feedback we're getting from those who are doing 

the research? How is it getting incorporated 

into what we do? So we've raised those questions 

a lot as a subcommittee. And a part of that is 

sort of beginning to use this forum to bring folks 

into the conversation who can help us 

contextualize some of that conversation.

So I'm really excited to have Brise 

here today. So Brise is -- and I'll just say 

that OFRF has just published their national 

organic research agenda, which is pretty 

impressive. And what they did, they've surveyed 

organic and transitioning producers around the 

country, 1,100 farmer survey responses and 

fielded a bunch of focus groups with farmers 

around the country. And it's really exciting to 
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hear from her today. 

She spent 25 years focused on organic 

food policy, farming and research issues. And 

with OFRF, she's been leading the mission of that 

organization to foster the improvement and 

widespread option of organic farming systems. 

She oversees all programmatic work, including a 

research grant making program, organic research 

forums, publication of the national organic 

research agenda, and farmer-focused advocacy in 

Washington.

Prior to OFRF, she was the Director of 

Policy and Program for CCOF, managing the 

government affairs and rural education program. 

She also served as lead lobbyist on food and 

agricultural issues for the Union of Concerned 

Scientists where she developed legislative 

campaigns on a range of agriculture issues, 

including connection between organic practices 

and climate change, USDA research priorities, 

food safety, and overuse of antibiotics in 
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livestock production.

Brise has served on the Boards of the 

Northwest Center for Alternatives to Pesticides, 

the California Climate and Agricultural Network, 

and the National Sustainable Agriculture 

Coalition. She holds a BA in Community Studies 

from UC Santa Cruz and received both a 

certificate in Conflict Resolution and an MA in 

International Environmental Policy from the 

Middlebury Institute of International Studies. 

So with that, I'm very excited to have 

Brise Tencer here today and I hope you all are 

looking forward to this presentation as much as 

I am. Thanks.

MS. TENCER: Thank you. I'm really 

happy to be here. Just going to see if I can 

advance our slides to the start of -- oops. It 

doesn't look like my slide deck is up, but I can 

start talking through unless there's a way to 

bring that up. Maybe I will just get started. 

Oh, perfect. Yep, that works. Thank you.
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So thank you for that wonderful 

introduction. I'm just really, really honored 

to get to be here with you among so many familiar, 

as well as new faces to talk about our work. 

Again, I'm Brise with the Organic Farming 

Research Foundation. Before I jump in, I will 

note that this is a super meaty report that I'm 

going to share. And I'll get through what I can 

today, probably just highlights. But I also am 

joined by the manager of our Organizational 

Research and Grow Education Programs who was one 

of the lead authors of the report, Thelma Velez. 

So she is on Zoom. Couldn't be in California 

today. And also will be available to answer 

questions about this project when we get to Q&A.

So for those who are not familiar with 

us as an organization, we do work to support onfarm research in organic production practices, 

grower education -- actually education for ag 

professionals and others working with organic 

workers. And we do advocacy mostly at the 
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federal level on behalf of organic farmers.

Just to note quickly since it is key 

to this topic, our Research Grant Making Program, 

we fund very, very small grants. But they do 

have an incredible track record of starting 

projects early in their infancy and concept that 

then are able to go on and get bigger funds often 

from USDA funding sources. Two other things that 

are unique about this program are that all of the 

priorities that we fund are based on input we've 

gotten from farmers and what their needs are. So 

we are trying to make those small investments to 

start finding solutions for those grower 

identified challenges, heavily invested in 

climate oriented research. 

And one thing I'm just personally 

really proud of is over the last couple years, 

we've been really thinking about how to support 

more early career researchers under researchers 

of color in our Grant Making Program. And this 

year, really just I think thanks to doing a little 
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bit more outreach in particular to 1890 directly 

Black-serving colleges and other minority serving 

institutions, we had a tremendous application 

pool from researchers who identified as Black, 

Indigenous, or person of color. And four out of 

our six new funded projects went to BIPOC 

applicants.

We do a lot of outreach and education. 

We hold an annual forum to bring researchers and 

farmers together to share findings, ask 

questions, engage. We do maintain an online 

database of all of our funded projects and the 

findings that they have shared. And we do 

everything we can to keep summarizing, 

distilling, reporting, blogging about research 

findings, both that we fund and that were seen 

coming from USDA and other sources.

This is just a little snapshot of some 

of our soil health publications. Soil health has 

been a huge focus of ours in recent years for our 

Grower Education. And I will come back to our 
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research agenda, which is that there has been a 

very, very substantial amount of new research in 

the realm of soil health since we put out our 

last national organic research agenda in 2016. 

And so one of our commitments is to sort of look 

at some of that disconnect. We know there is 

research being funded, but growers are 

struggling. So how can we be an ally to 

summarize to still translate those research 

findings, get them out into the hands of growers. 

And two kind of related projects we've 

had recently in this realm are one, we have just 

completed a new online course, "Learn at Your Own 

Pace", specific to soil health production 

challenges unique to the southern region of the 

United States. There is an accompany publication 

and guidebook and that is all coming to our 

website any day now. So stay tuned if you're a 

producer in the south or know producers in the 

south. We're also just in the early stages of 

developing some new resources for Spanish-
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speaking producers, focused on speciality crop 

producers in the western region. So we're very 

excited about that as well.

One of the recent activities that has 

been supporting our research agenda activity is 

we have a partnership agreement that we've had in 

place for about a year and a half with the USDAs 

National Institute of Food and Agriculture. And 

really what they've asked us to do through this 

project is to do an evaluation and assessment of 

their research dollars to date. How well they're 

meeting research needs as identified by farmers 

through our surveys, as well as other -- other 

pieces. And one of the reasons I'm 

mentioning this activity today is that one of the 

things we looked at through this effort is how 

well is USDA research addressing the needs 

identified by the National Organic Standards 

Board? So I appreciate all the work you all have 

done in helping develop these. Our research team 

really kind of looked at the research priorities 
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put together by the National Organic Research 

Board as sort of broad research priorities and 

then the more specific. I would say at the 

broader NOSB priorities, which I'm mostly looking 

at Fall 2021, although the majority of those 

issues have also been named in the previous six 

years, I would say those projects 

received significant investment and numerous USDA 

projects looking at those challenge areas such as 

organic IPM for disease of fruit and vegetable 

crops, overcoming barriers to transition, 

optimizing cover crop species and so forth. So 

there's been a lot of really exciting -- You can 

see those numbers up on the top ranging between 

18 to 38 individual projects addressing those 

areas. So that's very exciting to see. 

We can also see that of some of the 

more specific research questions like 

alternatives to crop protection substances and 

other input materials, we have fewer OREI and ORG 

projects addressing these challenges. But we 
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have seen some significant progress towards 

solutions. Some of those research projects 

include management of livestock parasites, 

natural sources of methionine for poultry 

production, rates of decomposition of biobased, 

biodegradable film mulches, and other areas. So 

this is really exciting. We're seeing more in 

the realm of a handful, two, seven, eight 

projects on some of those key areas that you all 

have identified. So I would say there's 

additional research needed, but some progress 

underway. And that's very exciting.

And last, I'll note that there are 

some research gaps. Some of the priorities being 

developed by the National Organic Standards Board 

have not been addressed to a significant degree 

through current USDA research. And we believe 

that there is additional research funding needed 

to ensure that we can keep addressing some of 

these challenge areas. Alternatives to bethamA, sanitation methods for food handling, research 
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to support tracking and avoiding presence of GMO 

materials and plant breeding lines, improving

access to organic foods as some social economic 

research. There's a lot of important areas that 

there are opportunities to really start directing 

more targeted funding to making advancements.

With that, I'm going to turn a little 

bit to what is our actual research agenda. And 

I appreciate Wood giving a nice intro of it when 

he introduced me. But we as an organization --

and some of our former staff and board are here, 

so I appreciate that -- have regularly surveyed 

organic farmers across the country over the 

years. This was our seventh national survey. We 

try to get it out into the hands of every 

certified organic farmer or rancher in the 

country. And we take the findings to both -- our 

goal is to learn about what are their current 

practices on farm? What are their current 

challenges? What further needs do they have to 

be successful? And what can we recommend in 
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terms of further work to address those grower 

needs? 

In this last survey, we had over 1,000 

survey responses. We sent out identical, but 

separate survey tool requesting feedback from 

transitioning growers. We had a fairly small 

pool of transitioning growers, 71 respondents. 

And really although we had some limitations 

getting this survey completed during the 

pandemic, we did get a really robust set of 

feedback from the producers. And believe this 

to be the most really substantial feedback 

directly from growers on their needs. And we 

really see this as our strategic plan. The 

farmers have told us what they need. We look at 

it as our organizational directive to address 

these needs, but also want to share it with you 

because we want the research community, Congress, 

USDA to see that there is a path forward to keep 

supporting adoption and improvement of organic 

systems. 
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Just a quick glimpse of the map of 

respondents. You can see we have certain pockets 

where we had heavy numbers of responses to the 

survey and a few parts of the country where we 

have fewer respondents to the survey. I'll note 

that this geographic spread overall is pretty 

reflective of the actual spread of organic 

farmers around the country. So although we only 

have a sample size of 1,000 respondents, it does 

mirror closely the geographic location of organic 

producers. 

And this again just is a little bit of 

a closer look at sort of the geographic spread of 

some of those survey respondents as organized by 

regions. I'm going a little fast here because I 

have a lot to get through, but we will have time 

for Q&A, so I can pick up to any points as needed.

So we didn't have really honestly the 

time capacity to break all of our data down by 

state, but we did organize survey findings by 

region. We primarily used the USDA SARE regions 
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because we felt like it was a useful way to give 

feedback to USDA and the research community. We 

did also though break down some of our responses 

by agro-ecological regions, which are really 

based on the USDA production regions. And by 

using these agro-ecological regions, we were able 

to get a little bit more finer scale of just 

geographic categorization commodity 

categorization of our respondents. And in 

particular, we use these agro-ecological regions 

when we were doing our analysis of survey 

responses by climate-related challenges and 

environmental stresses was where it was most 

useful.

So just some highlights from our 

survey findings. As I said, we had a relatively 

small sample size of transitioning producers, 

just 71 of them. But the feedback that we got 

from those producers was really interesting. The 

producers indicated they were heavily motivated 

to go into transition by environment, 
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sustainability, personal values, and health 

reasons. So that was really exciting to see. 

Profit increases and greater resilience to 

climate change were also on the priorities 

identified, but they were lower down. Those two 

buckets tied for fifth place in survey 

prioritization. 

A couple other notes about the 

transitioning producer responses. They 

definitely indicated that they're really focused 

on local sales, 64 percent of the certified 

producers are relying on local markets, while 86 

percent of the transitioning growers are relying 

on local markets. Which I believe points to the 

fact that transitioning producers continue to 

need help with market access at both the regional 

and national scale. 

Forty-five percent of the certified 

growers in our survey are selling to wholesale 

markets while primary marketing outlets of the 

transitioning growers is really direct to 
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consumers. Established growers indicated they 

just have better access. And it seems there is 

a clear need to continue to advance market access 

for growers during that transition period. And 

I note this is something that has been talked 

about a lot during this meeting relative to, you 

know, USDA investments to advance market 

opportunities. 

One of the most, I believe, salient 

findings of the survey overall is that both the 

transitioning and organic growers are leaders in 

soil management and climate stewardship. These 

growers are using regenerative practices. Both 

certified and transitioning growers indicated 

very high adoption rate of soil enhancing 

management practices far more often than that of 

conventional counterparts based on the USDA 

census NASS data points. Cover crops and green 

manures in particular are being utilized by 88 

percent of survey respondents, which is just 

fantastic. Whereas I think current data 
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indicates about 10 percent of non-organic growers 

are using these practices. That was from the 

2012 census of agriculture.

These charts, I know are a little hard 

to see, but never fear. I do have the full 

reports with me if you want to look at these 

charts yourself. But I would just share that use 

of these climate-friendly soil health management 

practices does vary by the agro-ecological 

region. For example, if your eyes are good 

enough, which mine are not, you would probably be 

able to see here that use of crop rotations is 

less common here in the Pacific region, which, 

you know, it makes sense due to the high presence 

of orchards, vineyards, et cetera. So we are 

seeing some patterns. 

Again, the data is a little tricky to 

see on a Power Point slide, but what I'd love for 

you to note here is that the transitioning 

growers in the sample are using crop rotations 

and intercropping more often than experienced 
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growers, which was I think fascinating to see. 

It may be that they're having particular needs to 

really focus on soil restoration and/or that 

they're motivated by that environmental 

stewardship that they communicated so clearly to 

us in the survey. 

Was that a drum roll? The 

transitioning growers are using -- So this is on 

inputs for nutrient management on these farms. 

And you can see that the transitioning growers 

are basically using all of these inputs more than 

those who are already certified. We're seeing 

lots of use of compost and manure by 

transitioning growers, especially -- and I think 

the data just indicates a real strong need to 

continue building soil health and fertility, 

particularly in these early stages of production. 

So again, as we think about how to support --

transition to organic, I think that's a useful 

data point.

The Northeast, the Great Lakes, the 
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Corn Belt regions have some of the greatest 

application of manure, unlikely because just 

numbers of dairy operations in these areas. 

Fertilizers are most heavily applied in the 

Southern region, which does make sense because in 

the warmer temperatures, these products may be 

mineralizing, breaking down faster. Compost 

heat was the least used input in all regions of 

the country.

So going back to some of the sort of 

top production challenges, the ones here are 

those who already certified organic. And 

definitely without a doubt, controlling weeds was 

top of the list, managing production costs, 

adequate yields, maintaining soil fertility and 

crop nutrition, controlling insects/pests. 

These are all rated really high by certified 

organic producers. Finding seeds and 

appropriate crop priorities did rate as number 

six, but we sort of categorized top five 

challenges as we organized the data points.
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And we did have focus groups, so we 

got to really follow up and dive in a little bit 

more qualitative data, get a little more granular 

with some of these feedbacks. You're probably 

not going to read all the quotes, but there's a 

ton in the report itself. But I'll just say 

there's a ton of the mix when you really dive 

into some of these production challenges, whether 

weeds or otherwise. There was a lot of nuance 

to the specific feedback of what those challenges 

were and where growers were struggling with them. 

I just put a couple of little pieces 

of some of the feedback we got on managing soil 

fertility and crop nutrition, which is an area 

that was cited as a significant challenge by 43 

percent of our survey respondents. And again, 

it's just reiterating that soil is important. 

It's the building block of everything. And if 

farmers don't have the tools to manage their soil 

and nutrients, then they're going to be 

struggling with other key aspects of their 
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operation.

So looking at these production 

challenges by regions, we can see that the 

regions, the SAR regions each have pretty similar 

production challenges, although the South does 

look a little bit different in terms of how they 

ranked challenge areas. But when we break the 

production challenges down by agro-ecological 

regions, we begin to see a little bit more 

significance in the difference of grower 

feedback. Crop varieties and seed were really 

noted as particular challenges in the Southern 

and Great Plains area. The Great Lakes noted 

that adapting to climate change was a major 

challenge area. And it was also, I think 

interesting to note that the Corn Belt producers 

noted minimizing adverse impacts of tillage on 

soil health given the focus on corn soy, which 

are often high-till operations. And in the 

Pacific area where we are now, disease pressure 

was certainly frequently discussed challenge 
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area. 

The producers who took our survey who 

identified as being Black, Indigenous, or people 

of color generally identified the same production 

challenges as the respondents who identified as 

White. But interestingly, these experienced 

most of these challenges more strongly. There 

was a particular difference in how they 

communicated challenges around managing 

production costs. And I think that, you know, 

that's not totally surprising. There has been a 

long legacy of structural inequity in our 

agriculture. And so there are just historical 

access to financial resources and capital, which 

have probably impacted these communities more 

heavily.

I did just want to get -- We have had 

a couple questions. And my colleague, Thelma, 

wanted me to put this in that we had, had some 

questions. Is this change in experience or 

difference in experience of BIPOC producers 
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because more of them are beginning producers than 

experienced? And we found from our survey 

results that, that is not the case. Beginning 

and experienced farmers generally reflected those 

challenges area equally. So the difference in 

responses of BIPOC producers stands out among 

both beginning and experienced producers. 

I'm sure they're cheering for us. So 

this slide just gives a quick overview of the top 

production challenges identified by the 

transitioning producer respondents. You can see 

controlling weeds again was at the top, finding 

organic crop varieties and seed, managing 

production costs, and minimizing adverse impacts 

of tillage. You can see that one difference from 

the transitioning growers is just how they are -

- they're struggling more with finding varieties 

in seed. We also see a stronger interest in 

minimizing the impacts of tillage than those 

among experienced growers. And 5A, B, and C are 

organized like that cause those three categories 
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were all sort of tied for fifth place. So they 

all came in equally at 41 percent of those 

transitioning growers identifying these three 

items as challenging areas. 

Switching gears to the nonproduction 

challenges, I want to know -- we did do the survey 

early in the COVID pandemic, so I think the 

results may have been impacted. But definitely 

we saw that labor was a top challenge. Labor is 

quite a challenge with or without the pandemic, 

but I think the particular stresses were a little 

bit different during the peak of pandemic. 

Finding and developing markets did rank as the 

second nonproduction challenge. And we saw 

respondents in the Northeast region reporting 

fewer challenges and folks in the Southern region 

shared the greatest challenges, followed by 

Western and the North Central region. 

But across these areas, three 

challenges were definitely shared, which was 

accessing labor, finding and developing markets, 
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and developing infrastructure. I'll just note 

that of the respondents of our survey who 

identified as Black, Indigenous, or people of 

color when they shared their nonproduction 

challenges, again they shared experiencing some 

of these challenges more strongly than the White 

respondents. And again, we did kind of review 

this relative to kind of cross-lifted the data 

relative to years of experience farming and found 

that those were not correlated. So the 

experiences was not related to those producers 

being newer.

The nonproduction challenges for 

transitioning respondents, finding and 

developing markets. We've already talked about 

that. Meeting record keeping requirements, 

developing infrastructure, accessing labor, and 

accessing capital and financing. I don't think 

any of these are new, but it is interesting to 

see that different ranking of the transitioning 

producers of these nonproduction challenges.
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We did also get a fair amount of input 

from producers on kind of concerns. So these 

were things that were neither ranked as 

production or nonproduction challenges, but other 

worries they had about organic and the future of 

organic. I would say not surprisingly fraud and 

integrity of the label came up again and again. 

Perception that organic was feeling too 

industrial. Number three is the one I thought 

was interesting, crop contamination. And really 

there was actually a lot of concern about 

pesticide and herbicide drift, which I thought 

was interesting to see the very high rates of 

producers who are concerned about that, including 

how they felt like that was impacting integrity.

Skilled labor research funds continue 

to be other areas. And sort of last, I'll sort 

of move into some of the preferred sources of 

information. Number one way these organic and 

transitioning farmers said they want to get 

information is from other certified organic 
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farmers. So as we look at these opportunities 

for farmer to farmer mentorship programs, that 

was number one. Second was other farmers, not 

having to be necessarily certified organic, but 

farmers and farmers relayed were the top two ways 

folks wanted information. Online resources was 

number three. Organic certifiers was fourth, and 

crop consultants was fifth. So we see a lot of 

other areas. And to me, that tells us that we 

need to be disseminating information growers 

through pretty diverse means to get the 

information that they want in the ways that are 

working for them. 

I'm just going to conclude with a 

couple of our takeaway recommendations. In terms 

of a specific research agenda, there is pages and 

pages of specific recommendations on research 

areas. But I'll just note that generally 

investment in weed management, integrated pest 

management, and management of production costs 

are three areas where we have pretty detailed 
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recommendations and are areas we see incredible 

opportunity for much more significant USDA 

investment in particular. And for those of you 

who know, we do advocacy. We are going to be 

really making a push to both the competitive 

grant programs, as well as USDAs in-house 

research at the Agricultural Research Service to 

really step up. And this agenda has been shared 

and presented with teams at both of those 

agencies. 

I did share at the beginning how we've 

been doing some assessment of USDA funding 

portfolio. And I'll say that of these areas in 

our survey where growers are indicating a strong 

need or some need for these areas, you know, we 

are tracking how well USDA dollars are going 

towards the challenge areas identified in the 

survey. And we see that these programs are doing 

a good job on production challenges like soil 

health, fertility, IPM, weeds. And have given 

much less attention to the nonproduction 
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challenges farmers have identified such as 

marketing, business management, and research 

related to how to secure and manage labor. 

There's also some, I think, request 

for more research related to how growers can 

better meet some of the particularly 

transitioning growers meet some of the NOP 

requirements, particularly around biodiversity, 

conservation, food safety requirements, and 

product distribution. But I guess all of which 

to say is that we think there's an opportunity to 

put a lot more funding into these research 

programs and have that be used effectively 

because there's work to be done on a broad variety 

of topics.

Our next recommendation is to continue 

to increase resources and outreach to really 

translate research to practices. Those who know 

me like to say research does no good if it sits 

on the shelves of academia. We need to 

summarize, translate, make these resources 
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accessible. And farmers have told us the formats 

in which they want to get it. So farmer to farmer 

learning, building capacity extension, NRCS, ag 

professionals. We need to do particular outreach 

to transitioning and beginning organic producers. 

And we really need to think about multiple 

venues, formats, tools, video, other ways to get 

the information farmers want in the way that they 

want to receive it.

And just note that while I am running 

out of time, we definitely have recommendations 

that I think have overlapped with some of the key 

things that you all here at the NOSB and at the 

pre-NOSB meeting have been talking about this 

week. The need to develop better resources and 

access to land, labor, capital, financial tools 

to help organic and transitioning farmers get 

access to markets, training service providers. 

There's an incredible need to really ensure that 

USDA across the agencies is recognizing organic 

agriculture as part of the climate change 
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solution. And I think we're still seeing some 

unevenness on where and how organic is recognized 

and the potential of those practices. 

And I think we have some work to do 

in continuing to build racial equity and support 

diversity of producers in the organic sector. 

And I think we got some really good feedback on 

how to do that. In particularly, the role of 

some of our minority survey institutions and the 

training of ag professionals and the work they're 

doing with farmers in their communities. So I 

think we have a fairly clear roadmap. 

And I guess I would just call on you 

that if you have more questions about what we've 

learned through this survey process to feel free 

to always reach out to us, ask questions. But 

also know we have a ton of data and information 

directly from farmers. And they've really given 

us just an incredible, I think, roadmap for how 

to continue advancing goals to support both 

organic and transitioning growers in the years 
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ahead. So I hope you all will join us in 

continuing to think about how we can create more 

solutions and resources. 

(Applause)

MEMBER TURNER: Thanks, Brise. I 

hope we have a few minutes for questions of folks. 

Do we have a few minutes? 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We do. 

MEMBER TURNER: I guess I'll start by 

just kind of getting it going. I was drawn -- I 

was thinking about your research gaps slide way 

back before all the data and the noise. Not a 

single morning person next door by the way. Not 

a single morning person -- or non-morning person, 

I guess is what I mean. 

You know, one of the things we heard 

on a presentation from NFA, I guess, the last 

time we met is that there's -- you know, somehow 

limiting the research priorities that we've put 

forth from the Board shouldn't be sort of one of 

our -- part of our thinking. If the list is 
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long, the list should continue to be long. And 

the list should just be let's put it all -- let's 

put it all out there and hope that the funding is 

there and the research is -- and the research is 

there to actually fill those gaps. When I 

look at your research gaps and I think that 

there's several that have been on the list for a 

-- that have been in the priorities for a long 

time that are still sort of zeroing out 

basically, it concerns me. Because I feel like, 

you know, I think the -- for us, the idea is that 

we're putting forth some priorities that are 

hopefully going to get some attention. And so 

I'm curious if that's a question of funding or is 

that a question of available researchers? Is it 

a question of the priorities not being specific 

enough? How do you -- How do you think about 

that? Because I just -- I can't get -- I can't 

stop thinking about that slide. And I know it 

wasn't every priority, but there were enough 

zeros in there that it concerned me.
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MS. TENCER: I'm going to briefly 

start by just saying yes, yes, and yes. I think 

all of those challenge areas. You know, we've 

worked really hard through our advocacy program 

to grow the USDAs funding for organic research. 

And have been very successful in the last farm 

bill of getting that organic research an 

extension initiative year after year and this 

farm bill with $50 million per year in funding. 

But for sure, even that is an improvement, but 

not nearly enough. And we are looking at a push 

in this next farm bill process to again stair 

step that funding up to be $100 million a year by 

the end of this next farm bill because there is 

a need and there's simply not enough funding. 

We're also needing more researchers 

wanting to do this work. So that is absolutely 

true. And yes I would say to the extent NOSB can 

make sure it's putting out recommendations that 

are specific, as well as the broad areas. I 

think it does help give fodder for the research 
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community.

I just want to pause since my 

colleague, Thelma Velez is here with us today and 

hasn't gotten a chance to speak up yet. And so 

if you want to comment further on that, Thelma, 

please jump in.

MS. VELEZ: Yeah, absolutely. Hi, 

everyone. Thanks for having me. I will say that 

I think, like you said Brise, it's great to have 

all of these priorities. And sometimes some of 

the ones that are not being met, it is usually 

those nonproduction challenge areas. And I think 

it's a little bit more difficult for researchers 

to wrap their head around a tangible solution to 

labor because that is so heavily tied to 

political issues. And that's usually not the 

area where -- where they can deliver results very 

quickly. And that's what a lot of the grant 

funding is. 

It's an opportunity for you to carry 

out a project over a course of a few years and 
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then produce results. And so I would say that 

might be part of it and then just some are just 

more pressing. And it's good to know that. If 

weed is and pest disease management are those 

more pressing challenges, that the bigger 

investments are going to those -- to those 

projects. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip and then 

Amy. 

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks. This was 

very well presented. A lot of good information. 

And as a scientist, I really wanted to see this 

type of data and the findings you have presented. 

And I commend and congratulate you and your team 

that you have put together so many, you know 1,100 

farmers and so many organizations. So this is 

very good information. 

And last night actually I downloaded 

this report, the 2020 research agenda, 232 pages. 

However, I could not, you know, read of course. 

But some recommendations I read and from your 
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presentation, I seek some information or 

clarification kind of, or your thoughts in three 

areas. The first one about organic food. Now 

as a scientist, probably you know that in the 

international community and scientific 

(indiscernible due to accent), they do talk 

about these organic food. And as a customer when 

I go in the grocery store and I buy and see the 

seal, I trust that and oh, this is safer and it 

should be nutritious. But as a researcher mind, 

when I think that way, then I think whether it is 

really nutritious -- I mean whether it has more 

kind of nutrients, whether it is a protein or 

whatever, vitamins and nutrients. 

So first, could you tell us a little 

bit more about that. Whether organic really 

organic food, you think it is more nutritious or 

safer? We know that is has less pesticide 

residue or zero or where do you see that in your 

research agenda that you want to include organic 

food research?
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The second is about organic seeds. So 

we are celebrating 20th anniversary. We are 

almost at our -- this is 21st year. Right? So 

when I look back 20 years ago, there was really 

availability of organic seeds was really number 

of crops. And I don't know about the cost, but 

I see still today, the cost is the concern for 

our organic farmers for organic seeds. Even when 

I buy cover crop seeds, it's really expensive. 

I feel that way. Also -- so this is about -- a 

little bit about the cost and availability. 

Where do you see that in the new few years --

five or ten years or 20 years that rare organic 

seed market or availability and the cost do you 

see that? 

And the third and last area -- I'm 

sorry, I think I'm talking much. But BIPOC- your 

presentation slide. And one of the tables I saw 

that you presented five areas of BIPOC, you know, 

community. And I noticed that all the numbers 

are higher in that BIPOC community. In five 
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challenge areas you presented, what do you think 

about what could be the reason for all these 

numbers are higher? I'm not sure if you had any 

clause or checkbox in your survey instrument you 

conducted. Any information additionally you 

want to share? Thank you very much.

MS. TENCER: Thank you. That's a lot 

of questions and good ones. We're really, I 

think excited to chat about all of them. I have 

a few things I want to say, but first, I'm going 

to let Thelma jump in and answer what you want 

and then I can add to that.

MS. VELEZ: Absolutely. So I think 

I'll begin with the first one, which is with 

respect to the safety and nutrition and how 

organic food compares to conventional products. 

As an organization, we haven't been prioritizing 

research that shows that, you know, organic 

produce is more nutritious in terms of nutrient 

density and calories or you know, vitamins and 

minerals. But we do know as you said that the 
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residues of pesticides are greater. And that 

alone makes eating organic food safer. And I 

think that is really something that we should 

emphasize and just draw attention to when it 

comes to that. And not just for human health 

consumption, but then of course for the 

ecosystems. And that is where, you know, 

depending on peoples values, for some -- for 

some, it's just their own personal health 

concern. But for many, the reason they choose 

organic is because they know that it's better for 

the planet and it's better for the environment.

The second question with respect to 

seeds and thinking about the cost of organic and 

then just the availability, I mean our biggest 

recommendation is that we need to really 

emphasize the production and breeding of crop 

cultivars that are specific to organic and for 

those particular regions that really need them. 

I will say that our -- our survey was done in 

conjunction with the Organic Seed Alliance and 
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they also produced a sister report. And it is 

the State of Seed report, so you can find that. 

As well, it is on our website linked as well. 

And there's -- I think their report is at least 

another 50 pages just on seeds. So I think 

that's a great place to start. 

And then the last question -- I lost 

my train of thought for the last question.

MEMBER NANDWANI: BIPOC farmers --

the numbers.

MS. VELEZ: BIPOC farmers. Oh, 

yes. You know, the reality is that BIPOC growers 

just have been -- they've been given a hand that 

is unfair. And BIPOC growers, you know, we know 

that there's a legacy of racism in funding, in 

availability and access to land and resources. 

And so these challenges are felt just -- they're 

just felt more greatly by BIPOC growers. And 

I'll say for example, even the spaces in which 

people unite, we know that farmer to farmer is 

one of the best ways to get information. 
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Well, these BIPOC farmers are also not 

as well plugged into some of these communities. 

They maybe have not either been welcomed or it's 

just not -- just not the space where they have -

- where they have had access to. And so there's 

a lot that goes into play in that and the report 

goes in a bit. But yeah, we do have additional 

information. There were comment sections, but 

we just haven't had the time and funding to really 

dig into some of those. But we do have openended comments that we can pull on for our BIPOC 

respondents specifically.

MS. TENCER: Just one quick addition 

cause I think Thelma covered what I would have 

said very well. But on the question of 

nutritional quality of organic food, our previous 

survey of organic producers that came up a little 

bit more often from farmers. We didn't hear 

quite that much about in this survey. But I 

would say again and again through our surveys 

more broadly, listening sessions, farmers focus 
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groups, et cetera, I think the general sense that 

farmers with consumers better understood what it 

means to be organic. What farming organic means 

and what that means for food quality. And I 

think nutrition is sort of one of the sub-issues 

in there as farmers want consumers to better 

understand what it is when they buy organic and 

to have that deep end understanding.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's go Amy and 

then Logan and then Brian. 

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thanks, Nate. 

Brise, thanks for your time and joining us today. 

This was really interesting. I just want to 

confirm that this information will be able to be 

circulated so we can unpackage the data a lot 

more. Okay, perfect. Because there was so much 

in there and it was fantastic. Thank you so 

much.

MS. TENCER: And I'll just note, I do 

have a few full copies of the report. It's 
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online. It's free, but it is a lot to even read 

the whole report online. But I do have a few 

copies here with me today. And we also have a 

much more detailed presentation on the findings 

on organic that can be easily shared and saved. 

So those are a couple ways if you want more 

information.

MEMBER BRUCH: Absolutely. I'll take 

one of those. Good plain reading material. 

Anyway, it's just really exciting to hear that 

these research dollars are available for doing 

real farm research. I know a lot of farmers in 

my community do their own real farm research. 

And to have grants, that would be exceptional to 

be able to do that. I was just curious on the 

conversion of farmer applicants to grant 

awardees, what that percentage is?

MS. TENCER: To our OFRF grant making?

MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah.

MS. TENCER: We have 100 percent of 

our projects involve a farmer. I would say we 
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have a fairly low percentage that are a farmer 

without a research partner. Usually it's a 

university partner. So I would say like 95 

percent of our successful applicants are 

university farmer collaborations. Areas of sort 

of trialing, plant varieties, seed varieties sort 

of an example of an area where we've had farmers 

come in successfully for research funds, but 

other areas as well.

Our team is now working on the 

development of a separate parafund to dedicate 

specifically to farmer led trials, so we can work 

with farmers who want to tackle just trialing on 

their land without a more formal research 

project. And how to build in a little bit of 

financial support. But that amount of funds is 

still kind of in the development stage.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan, go ahead. 

Did you have your hand up? 

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you. Yep, I 

sure did. Thank you. Can you hear me? 
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We can.

MEMBER PETREY: Great, okay. I've 

got two questions. The first one starts with 

transition markets. So you told me a lot of 

transitioning ground coming on board. And 

anyway, I just found some of it interesting. 

Sometimes the trends -- transitioning market can 

scare an organic grower because of pulling away 

from organic markets, you know, which type of 

consumer are you attracting? And so with a lot 

of onboarding product, that kind of makes, I 

would think a lot of organic farmers nervous. It 

does me. 

So we're transitioning some ground 

right now. And financially it is just better for 

us to grow three years or cover cropping. And 

that is the lowest input. I mean the seed is not 

terribly expensive. You're looking at soil 

building. You're not worried about the long list 

of -- the long list of concerns that, you know, 

were stated in the data they're worried about.
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Also, I agree with the statement to 

say that, you know, this land has to be developed. 

And it's hard to build, you know, the organic 

matter up and it's very costly, especially if 

you're trying to grow a crop organically and then 

sell it at a conventional price. It's just -- I 

don't even know how people can do it. But Amy 

has a lot of experience doing this. I mean she 

does it all over the country. And I'm more 

speaking on, you know, our region. But is that 

kind -- is it an idea that we're going to 

transition most of these -- or market this 

product, instead of building the soil for three 

years and then timing it right and coming off of 

an organic crop? 

Anyway, I think that the cost could 

potentially be higher on a transitioning field 

and the price point return is lower. And that 

just makes it -- that makes it more difficult for 

people. And sometimes people fail before they 

can even get in the organic door because they're 
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attempting that route.

MS. TENCER: Yeah. It's a super 

complicated question. I'm not going to pretend 

that I have the answer here. But I think we, you 

know, feel very aware of just the economic 

challenges of that transition period. And we've 

been sharing and we'll continue to share ideas 

with the USDA as they look at what some of the 

market development support can look like. 

Because as we're building these additional 

resources for transitioning growers into organic, 

we need to make sure the market is there. And 

part of it has to be making sure they have a 

market to sell their transitioning crop or 

produce when they are doing that, rather than 

cover cropping. And it's a big deal. It's a 

major challenge. Certainly long-term contracts, 

we believe are really beneficial for growers. So 

they know they have that sort of guaranteed --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER PETREY: But it would -- it 
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would be at a premium. Correct? It would be at 

a -- the transition would be at a premium compared 

to the conventional. And so you're -- is that 

correct? It would be --

MS. TENCER: That would certainly be 

our -- I mean that would be our hope and our 

recommendation. Absolutely. 

MEMBER PETREY: Okay. Okay. A 

second question I have that was on the BIPOC. 

You know, seeing that the -- that the farming 

conditions are worse or that they have a harder 

time. And you said there was no correlation with 

the time of farming that they had. Did you run 

correlations on the regions that they were in? 

Because there was a lot of correlations run on 

regions in every other, you know, study that you 

had. And I was curious to see if you were running 

that too and if there was some correlations in 

the regions. And maybe, you know, research that 

would be devoted towards that region. 

I'm in the South and so you know, we 
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heard from somebody in the oral comments that 

most of the farmers, conventional that were BIPOC 

were, you know, in the South. And so I just 

didn't know if that correlation showed up as well 

in that -- in that data.

MS. VELEZ: Thanks, Logan. I think 

that's a really great question. We did not break 

down our map of respondents for BIPOC by state 

and region. And I think that's a really great 

aspect to look into. As Brise mentioned, we only 

had so much funding and time to work. But I do 

think that, that is very telling as you said. 

Like one, is it that more of them are in the 

South? And two, is it maybe that they're just 

more in urban spaces and developing, you know, 

organic farms in urban spaces perhaps comes with 

a greater challenge as well. 

MEMBER PETREY: Okay. 

MS. VELEZ: And so these are these 

that I'd be interested in looking into.

MEMBER PETREY: Sure, great. Thank 
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you all for the data. It was great. Appreciate 

it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: One thing I just 

want to throw in here after what you just said, 

Logan, is I think this is a really good example 

of why we have farmers on the Board. And so 

there's a supposition that farmers want 

transition markets and field crops and row crops. 

And I think -- and I take Amy's jumping in here, 

my experience has also been grow alfalfa and grow 

cover crops during those years and place more 

emphasis on building organic markets than 

confusing folks with transitional markets. And 

I think that your question there really 

contextualized something that we assume and we 

haven't really flushed out enough. So thank you 

for that. 

Next, we have Brian, followed by Kyla, 

Javier, then Jerry.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Great, thanks. And 

I would just second what Nate just said about the 
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whole transitional label thing. I want to put 

in a plug for long-term organic cropping systems 

trials. And if we really want to learn about 

soil impacts on a three to four year funding 

cycle, you can't -- you can't get much

information about changes in soil health that's 

really reliable over that short period of time. 

So when I was working at Cornell, I 

worked on three long-term organic cropping 

systems trials. Two of them are no longer 

functioning. And they run into a funding problem 

during their adolescent period. The first cycle 

or two, usually they can get funding. But then 

there's a real tough time at around year eight to 

ten or twelve. 

And I just wanted to just put in a 

plug for -- now that some more organic research 

funding is on the horizon. And certainly it's 

way more -- I remember when we were real excited 

when the OREI project hit $9 million or $8 million 

or something like that. You know, it's gotten a 
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lot better. But I really think some resources 

should go into these long-term trials because 

findings emerge in the 15th, 20th, or even later 

years that were not there in the early years. So 

just wanted to put that out there. 

MS. VELEZ: Thank you, Brian. I 

think we are in full alignment with that. And 

in the pushes that we've making for increase 

investment in ARS in organic long-term ag 

research trials. Baltimore, Maryland has great 

work underway. But you know, we'd like to see 

more of these and with a dedicated space and land 

for organic research. Because you're right, 

these long-term trials have a lot to offer, 

especially when it comes to, you know, building 

soil health. Two years is not much, but ten 

years, 15, 20, 30 years tells us a lot about the 

benefits of organic production systems.

MS. TENCER: That was a little bit of 

a call to action for those of you here. Anybody 

who works with OFRF closely knows that this 
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funding or lack of funding for these long-term 

organic studies at the agricultural research 

service is one of the bees in our bonnet right 

now. And one place we've been really pushing 

this research agenda. Of that agencies 

approximately $1.7 billion a year budget, they're 

spending about $12 million a year on organic 

research activity. And that is the agency where 

these really long-term studies should be 

happening. 

So we are definitely talking to 

Congress, talking to the head of our EE about 

this. And we just invite others who are 

interested in research funding, especially that 

long-term to connect with us. And we are doing 

an organic research advocacy day and folks are 

welcome to join us. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just keeping an 

eye on time here, Wood, are you all right to keep 

going on questions and then dovetail into --

MEMBER TURNER: Yeah. I think this 
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is all relevant to the research priorities.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Excellent, all 

right. Kyla, please go ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes. Thanks, Brise. 

I really enjoyed your presentation today. I was 

just going to sort of echo what Wood said earlier 

in that I too really appreciated the slides 

related to seeing how our research priorities 

actually like linked to projects out there. And 

so somebody's listening, so that's really nice. 

But obviously we do have some gaps to fill, so 

the work's not done. So we'll continue to 

provide in those areas. 

But my question is that it seems that 

the research agenda and recommendations that you 

presented here really do align with the focus 

areas and deliverables of the organic transition 

initiative . And so besides what you've 

presented here today, is there anything else that 

the partners shepherding these cooperative 

agreements for USDA should be keeping in mind 
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with the rollout of these programs? Or anything 

that you wanted to sort of like really raise up? 

Thanks. 

MS. TENCER: Yeah. Thank you for 

flagging that. We've definitely been kind of a 

regular squeaky wheel in giving ongoing feedback 

to folks at the USDA at all levels about some of 

our recommendations for advancing organic

transition certainly since before Vilsack even 

committed this $300 million. But absolutely, I 

would say, you know, I think it was clear through 

my presentation, but I do believe that one of the 

most needed things is to really just create more 

resources that are more usable and accessible to 

organic farmers. Really just clearinghouses. 

But I think we're not doing a good job 

as a community and this includes our organization 

of really getting information to farmers in the 

formats that work for them. I mean we have a lot 

of long geeky publications, but I think we as a 

community need to really figure out how farmers 
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want to receive information and make sure they 

can find it easily and readily. Because there 

is a lot out there, but it's pretty daunting to 

get through. And there's also a lot of 

areas where no information exists. So I think 

farmers often feel left on their own to find 

solutions. There's a big opportunity. I guess 

the only other thing I'd throw in is I do really 

believe in, you know, the structural changes as 

well. Farmers might be looking first at other 

farmers, but I think really figuring out how 

extension agents, NRCS agents, and others who 

work with farmers can do a better job 

understanding what organic folks need. 

MS. VELEZ: Thanks, Brise. I would 

add to that I think it's really important to have 

a coordinated effort for market development and 

these, you know, mentorship models. Like yes, 

let's have farmer to farmer mentoring on this. 

But what does that look like and who's 

overseeing? Because just managing something 
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along those lines is a huge undertaking. Right? 

How do you -- How do you properly business plan 

for organic operation? And then on top of that 

and something that would help us and I think would 

help many of the organizations is a better system 

for tracking and identifying transitioning 

growers. Because having that list that's 

comprehensive and easily accessible can really 

help us keep track of what's happening on those 

operations. Did they decide not to transition? 

Why did they decide to pull out? Or are they 

completing their transition? What were their 

struggles? It's not easy to reach these folks 

if we don't have a good way to identify and track 

their process. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier, do you 

want to go ahead? 

MEMBER ZAMORA: Thanks, Nate. 

Thanks, Brise for coming out here and giving us 

all the beautiful work that you guys are doing 

and you do. And as a grower, I hear, you know, 
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Logan and some other farmers saying that certain 

areas in the country, you can afford to 

transition by planting cover crop and it's 

because you have lots of land. Unfortunately in 

our Central Coast, if you have five or ten acres 

of land, you're blessed and you can't really 

afford to transition. So definitely there's a 

big issue when it comes to selling your 

production in a marketplace that is not quite 

ready doesn't really support the transitioning of 

a farmer. I'm talking about a smaller scale. 

I wanted to go back to the beginning 

of your presentation where you said that some of 

your research is to find out what's going on and 

then present it -- even, you know, some of the 

funding come from the USDA and then presenting 

the findings to them. What happens after that? 

If you can elaborate a little bit more about that 

because we know, you know, how the minorities, 

the BIPOC, how much we suffer and we know what 

the issues are. We could spend the whole day 
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here talking about them. 

But is it just you just get a letter 

from the USDA saying we hear you and that's about 

it? I think we need to take action because like, 

you know, all the research on the shelf, it's 

just there. So I think we need to as a community 

go beyond that. I'm telling you these things. 

This is what we find. Let's act on it. That's 

kind of my thinking.

MS. TENCER: Thank you, Javier. I 

just want to say we agree with you. It's still 

a problem. There's so much more need to have 

that back and forth of information and sharing. 

And there's huge gaps, so I understand your 

experience. And you know, we try to play our 

role, but there's so much more to do. We're a 

pretty small organization, but you know, we're 

fortunate certainly in California to have a lot 

of partners. 

Our effort that -- Actually Thelma is 

waiting to work with some of the other 
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organizations around California to start 

translating more of our soil health resources 

into Spanish and just creating more tools for 

farmers. But again, a lot of the underlying 

information is going back to maybe USDA funded 

projects. But I think we have an opportunity to 

be much more of a partner and ally in helping 

make that information findable and usable to 

growers. Because you're right, it's not fun for 

anyone speaking into a void and not being heard. 

And that's why we want to make sure that this 

feedback from growers were helping and making 

sure USDA has heard and that they understand the 

voice of farmers. It has been heard, the 

questions have been asked. And you know, we're 

looking to them to respond as well. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So let's go to 

Jerry and then I'll kick it back to Wood.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you. My point 

has been made, so I'll yield the time. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So 
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Wood, we have a proposal. Will you take us 

through that proposal for research priorities --

MEMBER TURNER: Sure. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- and then keep 

trucking.

MEMBER TURNER: Sure. And I'll try 

to keep it brief. I think we've had a good 

discussion here on sort of the challenges that 

we're dealing with. And so I don't -- I think 

we're essentially voting this proposal through. 

But I just wanted to flag some of the feedback 

we've gotten. And I just want to thank Brise and 

Thelma for being involved in this meeting again 

because I think this has been -- I think the more 

we can do things like this, the more we can 

contextualize what the challenge here is and what 

we need to get -- what we need to get done. We 

need to have some of these more -- these bigger 

strategic conversations I think as a Board. So 

I'm glad to have that.

(Applause)
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MEMBER TURNER: So I just want to 

remind everybody about what our process tends to 

be for our research priorities proposal. You 

know, as Brise alluded, it has tended to be a 

rolling -- a rolling proposal over the last 

several years. A lot of things have stayed on 

the list. We continue to try to fund -- find 

opportunities to see research being done on 

certain priorities. Other things have been added 

to the list. Things have been changed. But 

essentially it is this sort of living document. 

And every year, we spend whatever we're going to 

spend here, five or ten minutes at the Fall 

meeting voting through this proposal and 

continuing this process. 

But you know, we also get lots and 

lots of feedback all the time about these 

research priorities including -- including in 

this most recent cycle of comments that, you 

know, it's at a point where we can't incorporate 

all of those comments into the proposal at this 
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stage. But I just want to tell this Board and 

the community that we're -- that we hear all of 

the new comments, all of the updated comments, 

all of the new ideas and it will immediately go 

into our process for next year. 

So I just want to remind people sort 

of what this is -- what it is we're actually 

doing. It feels a little -- it feels a little 

bit -- If you're not paying close attention to 

it, it feels a little bit like a perfunctory 

process. It's not. It's a living, rolling 

process that we're constantly sort of talking 

about these kinds of issues. So I just want to 

make sure everybody understands that. 

And that the community understands 

that we hear all of the comments and certainly 

spend a lot of time thinking about whether or not

they can and should be included in the list. 

That's sort of the reason -- one of the reasons 

I asked the question I did about sort of how do 

we -- is this a list that just goes on and on and 
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on and on and on? And are we -- do we have 100 

pages of research priorities? Do we have, you 

know, a concise document like we have today? And 

it's somewhere -- somewhere in there -- inbetween. 

What else was I going to say on that 

point? So we have -- Oh. Each committee as 

everyone knows has a liaison to the material 

subcommittee and that each of the subcommittees 

sort of discusses this amongst themselves and 

brings it back to the Materials Subcommittee for 

us to continue to sort of move this living process 

along. So anyway, I wanted to thank everybody 

for their involvement in the process on the Board 

and the community for their involvement. 

We had good feedback from the 

community. I mentioned this sort of continuing 

list of items that we'll continue to discuss as 

we move forward on this. I would say generally 

speaking, I think we had comments from -- we had 

a couple different sort of competing research 
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priorities. One was in the context of the 

climate-smart ag document and then our typical 

research priorities document. And there's sort 

of a little bit -- There's a little bit of 

blurring between the two, but you could sort of 

hear and pick up some themes throughout.

You know, I would say the feedback 

across the -- across the stakeholder community 

was consistently in terms of the folks we heard 

from, that there was strong support for the 

research priorities. And again with the addition 

of some new ones, there was a lot of attempts by 

organizations to attempt to help us prioritize 

and rank some of the priorities. And I think 

that could be an exercise that we sort of maybe 

bring more energy to as we move forward in the 

next cycle. 

Sort of, you know, I think we -- I 

don't think there's anything necessarily implicit 

in our numbering system in the proposal that says 

number one is the highest priority, number 12 or 
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number six is a lower priority. Maybe we should 

spend some time doing that because I do think 

Brise's presentation, I think makes me -- brings 

that to mind for me. We've got to move some of 

these things up into the -- up onto the -- up 

into the attention of researchers and ensure that 

some of these items get the attention they 

deserve.

So I think I'll leave it at that in 

terms of overarching comments on the document. 

We've all seen the document. It's a living 

document. It's been in the system for a while. 

I guess I do want to flag one thing on the -- I 

think some confusion about the copper sulfate or 

the copper sulfate research priority. It was 

always intended to be on last year's priorities. 

I think it got downplayed inadvertently. 

Hopefully the community is seeing that it is 

something we consider to be very high priority 

and very high profile. And something we very 

much want to see significant research to help us 
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drive some of our decisions moving forward. So 

I just want to make that clear.

So I'll leave it -- my comments at 

that. And see if there's any other questions 

from any of you about the document and the 

proposal in front of us. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just one second, 

Amy. Whenever we have a system like farming, 

we're going to have pain points. We're going to 

have challenges and growth. And this is our 

opportunity as a community to say where are 

farmers hurting? What is wrong in the process? 

And how do we come up with solutions? So I just 

want to ask everyone to give a big round of 

applause to Brise for joining us today and making 

this such a comprehensive discussion. thank you. 

(Applause) 

MS. TENCER: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. 

Really appreciate your time here today. Amy, 

please go ahead. 
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MEMBER BRUCH: Thanks, Nate. Wood, 

thanks so much for your work on this. Appreciate 

it and it's quite a list. I just had a question 

for you. I know I've kind of asked this in the 

past. But just taking in the importance of this 

document and the importance of these feedback 

loops that we can move some of these things off 

the list. The research is getting done, but 

maybe we don't always hear to, you know, close 

that loop. 

So one, I was just going to request if 

this Board can maybe brainstorm additional 

outlets and avenues for this document. I know 

where we post it and it's a public document. But 

I'm just thinking, researchers, universities are 

important and that's who we're kind of hearing 

from. But this private sector world that a lot 

of innovation is happening. You know, the 

mission or organic farming, climate-smart 

practices are really important to everybody's, 

you know, corporate goals. And maybe there's 
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pathways to get some of these items either more 

attention or things like that. 

I just think we need to be very 

proactive on getting this list to anybody and 

everybody that can provide these solutions. 

Because one comment that our community mentioned 

is, you know, farmers are taking on this research 

on their own without funding and ending up with 

crop failure. I know a lot of farmers in my 

community took on the whole no-till, rollercrimper methods of farming this year. 

Fortunately I had irrigation, so I was able to 

mitigate some of the risks, but Nebraska had one 

of its worse droughts on record since the 1800s. 

And there was 86 percent yield difference in 

doing roller-crimping farming versus traditional 

organic farming just because of the requirements 

of water on this cover crop and too many mouths 

to feed out there. So it's just really important 

that we're taking on this proactive approach to 

getting solutions. 
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And I agree with Brian completely on 

the subsequent information because we might find 

something successful one year, but how does it 

impact the whole system of farming year after 

year, either on water, either on additional 

nitrogen requirements because we have more 

biomass to decompose in our fields, et cetera. 

So we need to really look at it from a 50,000 

foot view, some of these research priorities too. 

And we hear that it's challenging to get funding 

for more than one year. And a lot of our 

information is dependent on several years. So a 

couple points there.

MEMBER TURNER: Great feedback. Love 

that.

MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

or comments? All right. Oh, yeah. Brian, 

please go ahead. 

MEMBER CALDWELL: Just a really quick 

one and sort of a point of information. On the 
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slide that's showing right now, number seven, the 

management of problem insects and weeds, we 

changed the wording on that a little bit. In the 

past years, it's been focused on invasive insects 

and weeds and we just broadened it. We're still 

interested in invasives, but there are other 

noninvasive pests and weeds that are issues. And 

so we just wanted to make that a little broader. 

MEMBER TURNER: Thanks for flagging 

that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So 

the motion before us is to accept the proposal on 

the 2022 NOSB research priorities. It was 

motioned by Wood, seconded by Brian. If there's 

no more questions or comments, we're going to go 

to a vote starting with Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes. 

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes. 

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. 

MEMBER SMITH: Yes.
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VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Take a moment to 

slow down real quick. Sorry. All right. Go 

ahead, Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes. 

MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan? Go ahead, 

Logan. Oh. 

MEMBER TURNER: Nate, you've also got 

three people on the other side.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I was just going 

to -- I hit the screen and I'm going to move over. 

MEMBER TURNER: Okay, got it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do you have a 

vote, Logan? Can you hear us? Let's text her. 

Jerry, go ahead. 

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes. 
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MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

Logan, did you have a vote? 

MEMBER PETREY: Yes. I'm sorry. I 

was trying to find the unmute. Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All good. Thank 

you. All right. And the Chair votes yes. 

MEMBER SMITH: That's 15 yes, zero no, 

zero abstentions or recusals. The motion passes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Great. All 

right. Thank you, Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: Thanks.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Back to you. 

MEMBER TURNER: I think we have one 

more thing on the agenda for the subcommittee, 

Nate. And it's -- First of all, let's 

acknowledge again publically the leadership and 

the incredibly hard work that Mindee Jeffrey 

brought to the -- the committee's work on 

included methods. And it's just -- it is -- it 

is very -- it's very time consuming and thought 
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provoking and detail oriented work. There's a 

lot of things to understand about what we're 

trying -- trying to wrestle with on included 

methods. And so just a continual amount of 

admiration for Mindee and her work and her 

leadership in leading that work. And I just want 

to acknowledge that and then also turn it over to 

you to give us a little update on where we stand 

on that process. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

I'm going to punt that right over to Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you, both. 

I appreciate it. If you're new to the NOSB 

process, I invite you to Google AMS NOP NOSB 

meeting page for a great way to access this 

amazing democratic process. And if you're new 

to that process, what that means is the USDA 

houses the agricultural marketing service, the 

AMS and the NOP hosts this part of the publicprivate partnership that makes up the organic 

system. 
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So if you did Google that and you get 

to the meeting page, you will find that the NOP 

responded to the Material's Subcommittee's 

recommendation that this Board passed in our last 

meeting on excluded methods. Their response 

reads: "Excluded methods. The NOSB recommended 

that NOP develop formal guidance addressing 

excluded methods. This recommendation includes 

a table developed by the Board over several 

years. This table lists several technologies and 

determinations as to whether they should be 

considered excluded methods as defined by the 

USDA organic regulations. This recommendation 

adds determinations for sale and protoplast 

fusion to this table."

AMS responds: "AMS thanks the NOSB 

for their work on this complex topic. AMS is 

reviewing the Board's recommendation to update 

the NOP program handbook, including the possible 

addition of this document on excluded methods."

I appreciate the tone of yesterday's 
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conversation indicating the USDAs commitment to 

open and collaborative dialogue. In that light 

respectfully, stakeholders, consumers, and 

previous boards have been unanimous in upholding 

the excluded methods and provisions including the 

part of those definitions that refer to gene 

editing techniques. We are united in the 

understanding that this organic system has 

positioned all forms of genetic manipulation as 

excluded farm organic systems just as if we have 

prohibited other substances, natural or 

synthetic.

I also appreciate that when 

stakeholder groups have questioned USDA on this 

issue, the USDA has responded by saying "We 

appreciate your initiative in discussing the role 

of gene editing with your members and sharing the 

outcome with USDA. Genetically modified 

organisms including gene editing are considered 

excluded methods and are prohibited in organic 

agriculture under the USDA organic regulations."
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So looking forward to the work that we 

have in front of us, I am excited about the level 

of expertise sitting currently on the Board given 

the work that is present on the TBD list. It is 

our intention to work on definitions for the 

remaining terms and techniques and to use the 

open docket for feedback from stakeholders in 

advance of the deadline for proposals for the 

Spring 2023. Which means we will need your help 

in ensuring that interested stakeholders are 

aware of the opportunity to provide information 

through that venue.

I would like to thank OSA for the 

state of the organic seed report in the Spring 

meeting. Advancing the TBD list work is 

important for continuous improvement and growth 

in the organic seed sector. The Materials 

Subcommittee appreciates all the efforts and 

education around this particular area of organic 

systems. And we look forward to receiving our 

community's input and expertise while we make our 
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way through these discussion documents and 

proposals. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

Mindee. MEMBER TURNER: Thanks, 

Mindee. I think that's all on our agenda today, 

Nate for this Materials Subcommittee. So thank 

you. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

everyone for a great morning. We're going to 

take a break for a few minutes and then we're 

going to come back to the riveting agenda of 

livestock. So see you all back here -- oh, we're 

running behind in a really good way. So let's 

see, 15 minutes.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 10:33 a.m. 

and resumed at 10:48 a.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, so I'm

going to hand it over to the Chair of the 

Livestock Committee, Kim Huseman.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate. 

We'll get started. The Livestock Subcommittee 
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this last semester has actually been fairly 

light.

We have a handful of sunsets to get 

through today. But that's that's kind of where 

the livestock committee focused its time without 

any other proposals or petitions to sort.

So to get started with our sunset 

process, this is actually the first set of 

sunsets we'll have this meeting. We'll begin 

with Chlorhexidine. Yes, and so, it is up on the 

screen. Sorry you can't -- there we go, can't 

see quite that far.

So Chlorhexidine listed at 205603, 

this is one of my substances. So as a 

disinfectant, sanitizer, and medical treatments 

as applicable, allowed for surgical procedures 

conducted by a veterinarian, allowed for use as 

a teat dip where alternative germicidal agents 

and/or physical barriers have lost their 

effectiveness.

Chlorhexidine has historically always been 
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used for surgical procedures and was annotated 

most recently to be able to be used as a teat dip 

when other methods have lost its effectiveness.

Through both the spring and the fall, 

public comment, very consistent in messaging, 

very consistent in number of respondents, and in 

the type of stakeholders that did reply. The 

dairy industry, dairy producers have been in full 

support of using Chlorhexidine, both as a 

surgical procedure, and also as an alternative 

teat dip, both pre and post when other agents are 

not effective.

It was also mentioned that having an 

alternative that's in a powder form, especially 

in northern climates is highly beneficial. There 

have been comments, consistent comments both in 

the spring and in the fall questioning the need 

for climate Chlorhexidine as a teat dip, when 

there's other products that are available on the 

National List, or that are natural. This is, is 

this needed?
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So that's one consideration to make. 

But overall, the support for the use has been 

positive. But just, just keep in mind that the 

annotation for the teat dip was brought up into 

conversation by a few of the stakeholders. So 

with that being said, Nate, I'll open up the floor 

to any questions for Chlorhexidine.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

Kim? I hope that everybody who has ever taken 

an IOIA class in here remembers that we have way 

too many questions about Chlorhexidine in our 

curriculum. And I hope it's triggering you all, 

right now, so.

And that this annotation, that it has 

to be used after other materials have improved, 

and ineffective, is consistent. And that's all 

I have. Anyone else have a question or comment 

on this material before we go to the votes?

All right, so the motion before the 

full Board, now, is that Chlorhexidine continues 

to be compliant with the Organic Foods Production 
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Act and it is not proposed for removal. It was 

sent from the Subcommittee to the full Board as 

motioned by Kim Huseman and seconded by Amy 

Bruch.

I'm sorry. The motion before us is 

to remove Chlorhexidine from the National List. 

And we're making sure that we're getting this 

right. And with that, we'll start --

MEMBER SMITH: Nate, sorry, me, Kyla.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

MEMBER SMITH: Just a reminder, 

opposite day voting.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

MEMBER SMITH: A no is keep, and yes 

to remove. Okay? Starts with Dilip.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Kyla. And 

my vote is no.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.
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MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: And the Chair votes 

no.

MEMBER SMITH: That is zero yes, 15 

no, zero abstain or recusals. The motion passes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: The motion?

MEMBER SMITH: Fails.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Motion --

MEMBER SMITH: Fails, sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Thank 

you, Kyla. And with that, back to you, Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. So the next 
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sunset on the livestock list is tolazoline. And 

to read that into the record, tolazoline, listed 

at 205603(a), as disinfectant, sanitizer, and 

medical treatments as applicable.

Tolazoline under Federal law 

restricts this drug to be used by or on the 

lawful, written, or oral order of -- can only be 

used by a licensed veterinarian in full 

compliance of the Food and Drug Administration 

regulations.

Also for use under 7 C.F.R. Part 205. 

The NOP requires one use by, or on the lawful 

written order of a licensed veterinarian. Two, 

to use only to reverse the effects of sedation or 

anesthesia caused by xylazine.

And three, a meat withdrawal period of at 

least eight days after administering to livestock 

intended for slaughter, and the milk discard 

period of at least four days after administering 

to dairy animals. This sunset material is, Amy.

MEMBER BURCH: Thank you, Kim. Yes, 
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tolazoline is limited to use by veterinarians and 

is further restricted, as Kim noted above. So 

it does reverse the sedation by xylazine. So 

they're used in tandem.

Xylazine is a substance that we will 

review at a later time on the National List. And 

that was one of the comments actually. Since 

these two substances are used in tandem, we 

should couple the pairing of when we review 

these.

So Michelle has noted that and in 

2026, we will assume that new process of 

reviewing these two substances at once. That was 

a comment from our stakeholders. Basically, this 

substance is not listed for approval 

internationally by Codex or IFOAM.

It's used in rare cases. But the 

comments were brief. There were a few comments in 

support of this. They said the use is rare, but 

when it's needed, it's necessary. Two, advocacy 

groups have expressed concerns, with one of those 
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groups expressing to delist the substance.

And that is based on mainly the 

conflicting information surrounding xylazine. 

The FDA prohibits the use of xylazine in food 

animals. However, the American Medical Drug Use 

Clarification Act of 1994 permits veterinarians 

to prescribe extra label uses of certain approved 

new animal drugs and improved human drugs for 

animals.

So there's some confusion there 

between when this can be used. Puts a little bit 

more pressure on the veterinarian, the producer, 

and the certifier to evaluate those necessary 

cases.

And that confusion was also expressed 

in the tab in the previous NOSB review. But in 

general, the community expressed just the 

positivity to keep this on the list. It's not 

used, like I said, very much. But when it is 

used, it is very rare cases. Any discussion?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions or 
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comments from the Board? All right. To read 

back, if you would go ahead, Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay, so you want me 

to read the motion?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. 

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We'll go to vote.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay, sounds good. 

So the motion before us is to remove to tolazoline 

from the National List. It was motion by Amy, 

seconded by Kim, at a Subcommittee.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So 

going to vote with the full Board. And we're 

going to start with Rick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.
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MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: The Chair votes 

no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

motion fails.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And I'll quickly 

hand it back to Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate. 

The next sunset on the Livestocks List is copper 

sulfate, reference 205603(b), as topical 

treatment, external pesticide, or local 

anesthetic, as applicable. Sorry, parasiticide, 

or local anesthetic as applicable.
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And this particular sunset material is 

Nate.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. So when we 

think about the tools in the toolbox, 

specifically for our quadruped-raising 

colleagues, we have copper sulfate listed on the 

National List of Allowed and Synthetic Substances 

for use in organic livestock production per 

205603 as a topical treatment, external 

parasiticide, or local anesthetic.

And copper ions have been reported to 

have some antimicrobial activities against a wide 

range of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria and 

fungi. And so, it's one of those tools that we 

have in the toolbox to help prevent hoof 

diseases.

And consistently, we're heard from 

stakeholders that this is an essential one. That 

we still don't have a good replacement for it, 

though there are alternatives that are being 

developed. Any questions from my colleagues? 
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What? Please go ahead.

MEMBER TURNER: Nate, I just want to 

encourage this committee to when you're compiling 

research priorities for next year to make sure 

that this is articulated in this particular, in 

the livestock section of the research priorities. 

It's flagged, and it's noted in the write up on 

the sunset, but it needs to be on the list, I 

think.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. 

Thank you for that. Mindee?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you, Nate. 

What are your thoughts on the stakeholder 

suggestion to annotate for limiting it to the 

control and prevention of hoof-related diseases?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It seems like 

those who are actually using it, those 

stakeholders who are relying on it to keep their 

herds healthy requested the continued use in a 

more broad, with more broad allowances.

And so, listening to those folks who 
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are using it every day, I think, not it being 

just a theoretical use, it's a very tangible, 

important tool.

And so, limiting it without their 

expressed interest or consent, I think would be 

a mistake. Other questions? All right. Kim, 

would you read the motion and then we'll go to a 

vote.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes. Sorry about 

that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No, no.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: So the motion is to 

remove copper sulfate from the National List. It 

was motioned by Nate Powell-Palm, and seconded by 

Brian Caldwell.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, and 

we're going to start with Amy.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.
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MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absence. The 

motion fails.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Back 

to you, Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you Nate. 

Clipping along here. Our next sunset material 

is going to be elemental sulfur listed at 60, 
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sorry, 205603(b) as topical treatment external. 

Again, another external parasiticide or local 

anesthetic is applicable. Elemental sulfur for 

treatment of livestock and livestock housing. 

This material belongs to Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Kim. Yes, 

this is one of the many uses of elemental sulfur 

within organic farming. And in this particular 

case, we're talking about external use on 

livestock for parasites.

And the general comments on, so for in 

general, and in this particular use, it's 

relatively benign. And our written comments 

pretty much reflect that. I want to apologize 

for my summation of some of the written comments, 

and verbal comments in the past.

Where I've said things like, like 

comments, were strongly in favor of x or 

something like that. And what I meant when I 

wrote some of those was that the preponderance, 

like there were many in favor of it, and only a 
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few against it.

But it sounded, I think, it could be 

interpreted that I meant all of the comments were 

strongly in favor. But that's not that's not 

what I meant. So from now on, I'm going to try 

to give numbers. And that'll make things a 

little clearer.

So in the written comments, there were 

six in favor of relisting, and one against. And 

also in the comments that we got, the certifiers 

listed 234, according to my account, users of the 

of this substance.

So it's pretty well used within the 

organic livestock producer community. So I just 

want to read their justification from our report 

here.

And it says, because elemental sulfur 

is needed to control external parasites and 

livestock, has no effective alternatives, has low 

environmental impact and is compatible with a 

system of organic agriculture, the Livestock 
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Subcommittee recommended that it remain on the 

National List. So, I guess, questions now?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions to 

Brian from the Board? All right.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. With no 

questions, the motion is to remove elemental 

sulfur from the National List. The motion was 

made by Kim Huseman, and seconded by Liz Graznak.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're going 

to start the voting with Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.
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MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

motion fails.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. And just as a 

quick heads up for those with the schedule. We 

did move glucose to the end of the list. So 

we'll have lidocaine, and then after lidocaine, 

we'll have glucose. Just so people aren't really 

confused.

So our next to be inform? Just so 

people aren't really confused. So our next 

sunset material is lidocaine listed at 205603(b), 

a topical treatment, external parasiticide, or 

local anesthetic as applicable.

Lidocaine is a local anesthetic. Use 
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requires a withdrawal period of eight days after 

administering to livestock intended for 

slaughter, and six days after administering, 

administering to dairy animals. This material 

belongs to Nate.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Kim. 

I've been told that I open too many statements 

with, when we talk about. But I'll keep going. 

When we talk about animal welfare, there's 

something that I think deeply, deeply, some deep 

under selling of organics' role as an animal 

welfare rule.

And that whenever I see any other 

add-on labels articulating animal welfare,

they're just always calling out what we're 

already doing in organics. And to that, when we 

think about pain management in organics, we are 

very serious.

And I think the folks who are in the 

certification room can speak to this as well -- in 

the room for certification. That we are really 
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interested in making sure that we have practices, 

and procedures, and tools that minimize animal 

pain.

And so, if we look to the dairy 

industry almost across the board, we're going to 

have some amount of disbudding and dehorning 

that's going to go on with very young animals.

And to mitigate the pain that's 

inevitably involved with burning an animal, we 

need to figure out how do we apply a local 

anesthetic. And so, this is a tool that across 

the board, everyone said, was essential.

And it's something that producers who 

use it all the time said was essential. And so, 

with that, I would open it up to my colleagues. 

If there's any questions or comments? All right. 

Back to you, Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Nate. 

The motion before us is to remove lidocaine from 

the National List. The motion was made by Nate 

Powell-Palm, and seconded by Amy Burch.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're going 

to start with Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 
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motion fails.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Back 

to you Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. The last 

sunset for the livestock subcommittee today will 

be glucose. Glucose listed at 205603(a) as 

disinfectants, sanitizer, and medical treatment 

as applicable. This particular material belongs 

to Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Here goes. Number 

one, first time, okay. Glucose is synthetic 

substance allowed in organic livestock 

production, primarily in the health purpose 

treatment for, in ketosis for cattle. It is 

important for remedying dehydration, 

hypoglycemia.

It's an ingredient formulated for 

electrolyte solutions. For not being a cattle 

person, I think of it as giving them a big shot 

of Gatorade. The comments were primarily in 

favor of keeping them on the list. And that's 
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all I got.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Very well done. 

Any questions or comments for Liz? As a point 

of Board culture, I think, rather, I'm really 

grateful how nice everyone is to the new members. 

Speaking from my experience as a new member, in 

helping get your sea legs.

When you walk in here being a veggie 

producer, not raising cows, and you're expected 

to do enough research to effectively present on 

behalf of the whole community and the industry, 

it's a lift. So thank you for your work Liz, 

really well done.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Thank you, everybody 

for your support.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Credit goes to 

chair, as well. And of course, fellow Board 

members to mentoring new Board members. So thank 

you for that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. All 

right, if we don't have any questions or 
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comments, would you read the motion Kim and it'll 

to a vote.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Absolutely. The 

motion is to remove glucose from the National 

List. Motion was made by Liz, seconded by Kim.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we'll start 

with you, Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.
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MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Well done, Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Thank you.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes, we're done. But 

one second, let me make the vote. It's zero yes, 

15 no, zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. 

The motion fails. Good job.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

everybody. One Subcommittee down. All right. 

So since we're having a good time, let's move 

right into crops.

We figure we could take a break, but 

let's use that break at lunchtime and extend it 

a little bit. So with that, I will hand it over 

to Rick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you, 

everyone. First of all, I'd like to thank my 

Subcommittee. We had a very busy season. We 
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have, if you look at the list, a lot of sunsets 

and some proposals, and we even talked a little 

bit about out biobased mulch, which has taken up 

a lot of time.

But the other thing I want to say 

about our Subcommittee and the whole process is 

how we have great discussion, respectful 

discussion, and disagreements. And I think 

that's the best part of it.

I mean, we've had some votes that 

aren't always unanimous. And I think that really 

shows that people are independent, and they bring 

their own view to the committee. And that's 

exactly what we want. So I really want to thank 

the committee for that.

I also want to thank Logan, who 

guaranteed she wouldn't have her baby, and she 

would be here to present. So thanks to Logan 

also. And so what we're going to do, because 

Logan is off site, is move all of her materials 

to the end, and bundle them so that she won't go 
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back and forth.

Lastly, and Nate, maybe we can talk 

about it. When we do get to the biobased mulch, 

there were lots of comments last week and 

continuing about plastics.

I mean, obviously, plastics are a big 

issue. But I want to remind people, and Nate 

probably will have a few words on this. The 

biobased mulch isn't, we're doing a sunset for 

that. And that's the context of it.

And we've talked about getting, we 

think we need a work agenda on plastics and all 

the other plastic components. So I don't know 

if you want to just take a minute, Nate to mention 

that. And then we'll go on into the discussions.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I promise folks 

that I'm going to get better analogies then what 

I'm about to give you. But from the public 

comments, we heard a lot of concern about 

plastic. And rightly so.

It's again, probably after climate 
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change, one of those really big ones that is ever 

present in our thoughts and in our work. So it's 

like you all unloaded a wild stallion into the 

room, and we have to figure out where we're going 

to corral it.

And where we're not going to corral it 

is here. We're going to corral it over into 

other business, when we have sort of that other 

category. Because we do want to reflect and take 

time to discuss it. It's just not germane 

immediately to the sunset at hand. So to 

acknowledge it, and then to keep going.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. No, thank 

you, very much. So the first proposal is 

actually mine, potassium hydroxide is a petition 

substance. And this is petition to use potassium 

hydroxide to liquefy invasive carp for a liquid 

fertilizer.

The community is pretty much against 

it. The comments were against it. We had a lot 

of discussion in our committee since potassium 
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hydroxide is already on the National List. But 

the question was, do we need something else 

that's sort of specific just to this particular 

process?

So we did discuss it. We passed it 

out of committee, but we weren't all that 

comfortable. Basically, what would with what was 

going on. So I'll open it up to discussion.

But I think, I'd like to see it go 

back to the Subcommittee for further discussion. 

I just don't think we covered it adequately. And 

I know Brian has some comments probably, too on 

this. So I'll open it up to discussion.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. 

Brian, please go ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, my sort of deep 

questions about this are that there are plenty of 

fish fertilizer products already available. And 

I didn't understand why we needed a new method to 

create one from this invasive carp.

I'm totally in favor of doing 
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something to mitigate invasive carp. And I just 

wanted to point out that the use of potassium 

hydroxide to dissolve the fish necessitates 

raising the pH of the mixture.

And potassium hydroxide is a synthetic 

source of potassium. Well, in order to lower the 

pH back down so that the product is shelf stable, 

phosphoric acid is usually used, which is also a 

synthetic source of phosphorus.

So if we have a product that has some 

fish in it, but has a fair amount of synthetic 

potassium and an additional amount of synthetic 

phosphorus to make it shelf stable, we are 

essentially having a product that is mostly 

synthetic nutrients with some fish in it. So 

just wanting to kind of throw that out there for 

more, you know, for consideration.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, so, any other 

comments? Technically, do we take a vote to --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead. So 

would you like to put a motion on the table to 
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send back to Subcommittee, Rick?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, Kyla, go 

ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: I guess my question is, 

what more do we need to learn? Like, what's the 

benefit of sending it back to Subcommittee? I 

guess, like, what more do we need to learn?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I think that it 

will give the petitioner a chance to talk about 

what they can do for other methods in terms of 

the invasive carp, and so there are mechanical 

things that can be done.

Give them another chance. We can 

probably ask questions. I did ask the petitioner 

last week some other questions. And he mentioned 

that he would have to check on them.

So it'd be a chance to give the 

petitioner one more chance to bring this forward. 

I think if we vote it down, then I guess, he can 

still come back. But it'd be a whole new 
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petition.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Could I speak a 

little to that? Real quick? Oh, Carolyn, go 

ahead.

MEMBER TENCER: Rick, can you just 

explain, like to a non-farmer person, like, what 

this product is all about?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Well, it's 

basically a liquid fish fertilizer, which lots of 

organic farmers use. And the question is, how 

do you liquefy it? And so that's, as Brian, or 

it's, you know, pretty caustic materials.

And the end product will have more 

synthetics in it. There are other procedures for 

doing fish that can be mechanically, I guess, 

chopped up. I don't -- I'm not a fish emulsifier 

by trade. But so, there are other methods.

And so, the question is, can the 

invasive carp be turned into something useful for 

organic farming, but not at the same time 

increase the potassium and the other synthetic 
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compounds that would --

MEMBER TENCER: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead. But, 

yes --

MEMBER TURNER: Rick, when you talked 

about sending it back to Subcommittee, the 

petition that was for the substance. So you had 

given the petitioner a chance to look at other 

options. But the question is about this 

particular substance, right? So --

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes. It's for 

adding potassium hydroxide to the National List. 

And the issue is, it's already on the National 

List. But this is for a specific process. So I 

mean, I don't know, so. Nate, you had a comment?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. I really 

appreciated that petitioner's presentation and 

what he's trying to do. I think it's evidence 

that the the greater community is trying to 

innovate.

So I, I feel you're Rick on not 
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wanting to discourage that participation. We 

have fish emulsion. Emulsified fish is already 

a part of our industry.

And so I think that we shouldn't 

necessarily conflate this material with trying to 

communicate with the petitioner to keep going and 

to not, not give up.

And everybody in this room, any fish 

emulsifiers, you all should get in contact with 

that petitioner. And say, here's some good 

advice on how we can do this, which was almost

where we went as a Board, saying, we really love 

your idea. You're just missing a few steps.

So yes, I would, I would say speaking 

to the idea of going back to Subcommittee, I don't 

see it for this material as being useful. But I 

do agree that a communication in gratitude from 

the community to the idea is necessary.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes, similarly, 

I appreciate the commenters who noted that 
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commercially viable alternatives exist for the 

processing of fish into liquid. And I, correct 

me if I'm wrong, I think the oral commenters said 

that he hadn't tried other extractants.

And that he was following a process at 

his facility that was doing the work for him. 

And so I feel like we are helping him understand 

that we appreciate his participation and the work 

he's doing especially with the invasive carp.

That he showed up, and we gave him the 

answer. There are other materials for you to 

try. And I just hesitate for the Crop 

Subcommittee to keep doing more work on a

synthetic that doesn't appear from the public 

stakeholders position to be wanted.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So, why 

don't we go ahead then and --

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: But Rick, 

respectfully, if you feel passionately as the 

Crop Subcommittee Chair, it should go back to 

Subcommittee --
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: No, not really. I 

mean --

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: -- we can do the 

vote.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: -- the committee 

or the community 

doesn't seem to want it. Yes, Kim?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: If I'm not mistaken, 

that petitioner had also mentioned that they were 

currently patenting their current process. So a 

change in process might actually deter.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, I don't 

remember hearing that.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: I had written it 

down, is the reason I remember it. But the 

thought, and I think using fish fertilizers is 

encouraged and encouraging. So hopefully, 

there's something we can do there.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So do you 
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want me to go ahead and call for the motion then?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I would say so.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So the 

motion is to add potassium hydroxide to the 

National List as a processing aid at 205.601. It 

left committee. I made the motion and Jerry 

seconded. The vote was six yes, one no, and one 

absent. So as I say, there was even some 

disagreement within the committee. So we want 

to make call for the vote.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

so, we're going to start the vote with Liz.

MEMBER SMITH: So just as a reminder, 

we're back to not opposite day. So a yes vote 

lists it. And a no vote does not.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Does not.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes, will not have it 

go on the list.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I cut off Kyla?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: This is tougher 

for Kyla.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Sorry, Kyla.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

the Chair votes, no.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. That's two yes, 

13 no. The motion fails. And zero, the other 
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thing.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay, thank you. 

So the next one, and the first sunset on the list 

is soap-based herbicides. And that's also mine. 

The comments were generally positive from the 

written and oral comments with the majority 

saying yes, keep it on the list.

There are a couple saying it really 

isn't necessary. Soap-based herbicides are 

relatively benign. They disappear in the 

environment very quickly within a day or two. 

These are used for farmstead, maintenance 

roadways, ditches, rights of way, building 

perimeters, and ornamental crops.

So I say relatively benign and 

moderate amount of our stakeholders are for 

keeping it on the list. It was voted in 

Committee. The motion was to remove the soap 

based herbicides from the National List.

I made the motion. Jerry seconded it. 

And moving it off, we had five noes to keep it on 
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the National List. So open it up for 

discussions.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions or 

comments on this material for Rick? Okay, all 

right. Oh, Dilip, go ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Rick, very quick 

clarification. I'm reading this here, but I'm 

not seeing if there are any alternatives of this?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Generally 

speaking, I think there's some other soap-based 

herbicides that have a different saponification, 

one. This is, and I can't remember exactly what 

it was.

But when they do the fatty acids, this 

is aqueous potassium hydroxide. I think there 

are also some ammonium salts that can be used 

too.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: All right. So --

MEMBER BURCH: One thing to add. 

Dilip, some other methods, alternatives would 
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just be your practices, as well outside of a 

substance. So just hand-weeding machines, 

things like that.

Flame weeding, electrocution, all 

sorts of different techniques but this would be 

mainly geared towards fence rows, lanes, outside 

of cropping area, culverts.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Okay, thank Kyla. 

Oh, Amy.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Amy, is this is 

where my Dad gets his bush hog, out? No, well, 

I did actually, can I --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, go ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: So because this, 

like, not on crops. It's around, organic farms?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Keeping the home 

place looking pretty. Go ahead, Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, I think there 

are also other kinds of sprayable, approved 

herbicides that could be used for that purpose.
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So the 

motion is to remove soap-based herbicides from 

the National List. And I made the motion in 

Subcommittee, seconded by Jerry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

MEMBER SMITH: Back to opposite day, 

sunset.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry?

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Sorry, we're on 

opposite day?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're on opposite 

day.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's one yes, 14 no, 

zero abstention, recusal, or absent. The motion 

fails.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay, thank you. 

Next is boric acid, and that's Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: Thanks, Rick. The 

substance is boric acid, listed at 205.601(e), as 

insecticides, including a acaricides or mite 

control. Boric acid structural pest control, no 

direct contact with organic food or crops.

This is a material that is very common 

in household insecticides and has been in use for 

decades. It's an odorless material that attacks 
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insect nervous and metabolic systems and can 

dehydrate insects.

It's, as a structural tool, it uses a 

bait, which insects ingest and return to their 

colonies. And it can effectively eliminate pest 

colonies. It's very commonly used in packing 

sheds and other facilities. Often used as a 

powder introduced in cracks and crevices.

And is one of those materials that it 

sounds gruesome when you describe what happens to 

the insect. But unfortunately, we have 

facilities that need that insect control. And 

so I think that's reflected in the comments.

There have been, historically, some 

conversations in the past about this material, 

whether there were some alternatives. But 

alternatives that have been proposed have been 

equally challenging, or more, you know, create 

other challenges.

So I think, generally, the community 

is aligned on this. You mentioned the annotation 
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discussion, Nate. There are some, there were a 

couple of comments around in annotation, which is 

duly noted.

But most of the feedback, nine of the 

written comments, were in support of relisting 

the material. There was one in opposition. And 

again, the points about annotation. But again, 

we're facing challenging issues with respect to 

alternatives. So the Subcommittee is not 

proposing removal.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any comments or 

questions for Wood? All right.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. The motion 

is to remove boric acid from the National List. 

The Subcommittee motion was by Wood, and seconded 

by Jerry, and with unanimous not wanting it 

removed on the Subcommittee.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're going 

to start with Carolyn.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?
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MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstention, recusal, or absent. The motion 

fails.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Back to you, 

Rick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I'm back. And 
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this one is mine, also, sticky traps/barriers. 

And that's in 205.601(e), insecticides including 

acaricides for mite control and sticky trap 

barriers.

Overwhelming support by our 

stakeholders for keeping this on the list. They 

find them very useful in a variety of settings 

for monitoring, for insect pests, and for also 

attracting and sticking pests to keep them out of 

the way.

There's been broad support for it. It 

does have a usually a hydrocarbon on it, but it 

has no contact with any of the potential food 

that is being grown. Any questions? Yes, Kim?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: I have more of a 

comment. I did read one commenters states that 

sticky traps can sometimes catch beneficial bugs. 

So I don't know.

There's not a solve that I can come up 

with in my mind. But just to make that clear, 

too. Is that, it's not discriminatory as to what 
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it catches.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes. And

generally speaking, at least in my experience, 

because of the colors on some of these, they 

attract more of the pest insects than the 

beneficials.

So I don't, I'm sure that it catches 

some beneficials. But overwhelmingly, they get 

the pests. So you know, we're not in 100 percent 

world, I guess. So any other? Oh, yes, Javier?

MEMBER ZAMORA: Thanks, Rick. I 

think as a grower, sticky traps, it's a tool that 

we have in different settings, like you said. My 

concern is something what, what was just 

mentioned.

That, you know, they're normally blue, 

or yellow, and the insects, whether they're 

beneficials, or not so many beneficials go in and 

get stuck there. And obviously, they die.

But my question is, are there any 

other substitutions that we might be using? 
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Because it sounds like this has been taken for 

granted because it's a no contact with the crop. 

But it is there near.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, I think 

that's I think that's a good question. And I, I 

don't know if there's anything else. And I don't 

know if industry is looking for anything else 

because these are so relatively inexpensive to 

produce.

But I don't know if there's a 

financial incentive to look for something other 

than what's already on the market. And so, I 

don't know if anyone else knows that? Yes, Liz?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: I don't know the 

answer to your question. But I can tell you 

using them. I mean, pretty much we use them in 

controlled, high tunnel, low tunnel environments.

And the amount of time that they are 

up is really limited because you're trying to 

target pre-hatching of the insect that you're 

looking for, so that you can time spraying to try 
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and help control that specific insect.

And, and then you take them down. 

Because as soon as you can identify the cucumber 

beetle, as being there, then you know that, you 

know, it's May 15. And okay, they're here.

So the amount of time that they're up 

is not very long. And again, it's in, you know, 

definitely in controlled, high tunnel, low tunnel 

situations that they are used. Greenhouse types 

of locations.

MEMBER PETREY: That was great, thank 

you for that.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes, Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: Excellent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

MEMBER PETREY: That made so much 

sense. Okay, thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, maybe not a 

cat expert, Liz, you are very valued for that 

deep vestigial knowledge. So, thank you.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, I appreciate 
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that. So any other Javier? I don't, I don't 

think I can really answer your question because 

I don't know the manufacturing. But I think 

they're so easy to use and so cheap. I don't 

know if, if anyone is working on it.

MEMBER ZAMORA: I think there's maybe 

some opportunity to look into something else. I 

know that there's some other, there are growers 

that are using --

They might not be certified organic, 

but they're using other things that could 

potentially be a substitute, something more 

natural way.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay, so thank 

you. So I would like to make the motion to remove 

sticky traps/barriers from the National List. In 

the Subcommittee, did the motion, and Amy 

seconded it, and it was out unanimously.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right And 

with that we'll move to the vote. And we're 

going to start with Jerry, again.
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MEMBER SMITH: Logan?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh sorry, Logan. 

Logan, it's you first.

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No. Thanks, Liz.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstention, recusal, or absent. The motion 
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fails.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Next up, is 

elemental sulfur. And that's Brian again.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Thanks, Rick. Yes, 

a yet another use of elemental sulfur within 

organic agriculture. And this is a little 

convoluted, so I hope I can say this relatively 

quickly. This is the use of elemental sulfur 

within a slug control, bait based material, you 

know, product.

And just a little background, 

basically, right now, the main stuff substance 

that is that is used as an active ingredient in 

this exact same kind of product is ferric 

phosphate.

And there have been toxicity issues 

with ferric phosphate for earthworms and dogs, 

actually, when it is combined with the inert 

EDTA, which is what all the products that use 

this that are effective have EDTA as an inert.

And just as a little side comment, we 
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can see in that case that EDTA is not acting in 

any kind of the normal usage of the word inert. 

Okay. Well, anyways, so elemental sulfur can 

perform the same function within these products. 

And --

But it was it was first approved in 

2019. And ferric phosphate was approved, was 

renewed on the list in 2018. And one of the 

reasons for that was because there did not seem 

to be any other alternatives.

So the use of elemental sulfur for 

this is an alternative for what has some 

potentially toxic effects of the product that is 

currently mostly in use. So I hope that that 

kind of sets the ground work.

Now, the amount of elemental sulfur 

that's used in these products is really small. 

It's only 1 percent active ingredient, 99 percent 

"inert" ingredient in these slug baits. And we 

don't know what the inert ingredients are. So 

that's, that's a question, and just keep in mind.
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So with all that background, the 

committee did find that it should be kept on the 

list. And there have not been, there has not 

been much use of this product since it was only 

first on the list a few years ago.

And the written comments were that, 

five were in favor of keeping it on the list. 

One was against. Two said more data is needed. 

And one emphasized that we really need to address 

this inert issue.

And there were some verbal comments, 

too. But they were made by the same people that 

did the written comments, so I'm not going to 

double count them. So with that, I think I've 

probably confused everybody enough, so that we're 

ready for questions.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, 

questions for Brian?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, thanks, 

Brian.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead.
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VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes, I 

appreciated the commenters helping make sure we 

had our history right, and that this substance 

hasn't been on the list that long.

And whether or not we're in love with 

it, that potentially the next review could help 

us understand how we're functioning there. And 

Brian, I appreciate the depth and wealth of your 

knowledge.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: He's Mr. Sulphur 

at point. Okay. So the motion is to remove from 

205.601 synthetic substances allowed for the use 

in organic crop production, elemental sulfur. 

And it left committee by Brian, who made the 

motion, and seconded by Jerry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

we're going to start the voting with Jerry.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.
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MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

motion fails.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So next is, 

coppers fixed and copper sulfate, and we'll go to 

Mr. Copper. So we've gone from Mr. Sulfur to 

Mr. Copper. So Jerry?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you, Rick. 
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I've really admired the degree of brevity with 

which these sunsets -- I'll put this over here, 

sunsets have been addressed and appropriately, 

so I thought. A very good show so far.

And I only say that because I find it 

really hard to be brief on what I'm going to be 

talking about because it's, it's it's a German 

saying which means enjoy with caution.

It can be a very nasty one, and I want 

to give that side of it, its proper time. So 

coppers sulfate copper, coppers fixed, and I'm 

going to read reviewing these two materials 

together. And we will vote on them separately.

The reason for that is that they're 

both for plant disease control. They both share 

the same annotation, they share the same 9095 

Tap, they share the annotation. They share 1995 

TAP. They share the same 2011 TR. And now, they 

share the same 2022 TR.

Copper for agricultural use is made 

from the byproducts of processing copper ore, and 
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are considered synthetic. They are on the list 

of exemptions for synthetic materials in OFPA.

I find it also interesting and necessary to go to 

the international acceptance.

And there appears to be broad 

consensus throughout the United States, the EU, 

and Canada that copper sulfate and coppers fixed 

are hazardous to both human health and to the 

environment. 

Despite this, the use period for 

copper has been extended in all three 

jurisdictions, as there isn't yet a viable 

alternative, organic alternative. And that is 

the major point.

To complete the list, in Codex, 

permitted, it's a permitted substance, or they 

are permitted substances for organic foods. In 

IFOAM copper is only mentioned as a soil 

amendment and as a trace soil nutrient.

So at Subcommittee, we considered that 

copper compounds readily dissolve in water and 
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are highly toxic to many aquatic organisms. 

Copper compounds bind to soil and tend to 

accumulate significantly in clay soils. Copper 

compounds can damage the plants that they are 

applied to.

Widespread use of copper compounds has 

led to the evolution of copper-resistant disease 

varietals. And there is a well established link 

between dysfunctional copper metabolism and 

Alzheimer's disease.

Last, foliar spray of copper mixtures 

has long been recognized to impact lung and liver 

function in agricultural workers. Out of respect 

for the brevity that I mentioned, I will not go 

through Subcommittee deliberations in 2021.

But I'll start with 2022. In July 

2022, just prior to the deadline to submit 

proposals to the Fall Meeting, the Crop 

Subcommittee received a draft copy of the TR, 

which is found comprehensive, thorough, and 

sufficient.
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The 2022 TR contained updated and 

expanded information regarding environmental and 

human health concerns, and the Crop Subcommittee 

will continue to review the TR. I thought I was 

going to have to apologize thoroughly for that TR 

not being available.

I will apologize for that wasn't 

available to the stakeholders for their 

consideration. But we did get a hold of it. And 

we had a chance to consider it in its complete 

form.

We had some questions. It went back 

to the writer and today it is available to 

stakeholders for their review on -- do you want 

to help me with that one more time?

MR. CLARK: The Petition Substances 

Index.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Jared, thank you, 

very much. Okay, going back to the TR -- okay, 

I just did that. So in our look at the the TR 

and I'm speaking for more than just myself, and 
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if over speak, I'm sure my, the Subcommittee will 

be happy to help me.

If you're outside the parameters of 

acceptable tolerances, there is a potential that 

the consequences could be more dire than 

historically thought.

In other words, in the previous TRs 

they mentioned diabetes is perhaps an affliction 

coming from copper sulfate overuse or over 

ingestion.

And now, in the TR they're making a 

further step to say not that the copper sulfate 

can cause Alzheimer's, but in causing diabetes, 

which then leads to Alzheimer's. So there's a 

distinction to be made there, I think, and quite 

a considerable one.

With that said, and this is the second 

part of the TR, in mind, with that said, it does 

not appear that the goal posts concerning 

acceptable tolerances have been moved. So in 

other words, you've got a band that that is 
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determined, that has a certain width.

And as we know, copper is something 

that we need for ourselves. And copper is 

something that in can be deadly. The parameters 

of that, or the definition of that have remained 

the same.

So if you stay within those 

parameters, we've gained -- the TR indicates to 

me at least that we're okay. Okay. So I'll open 

this up to questions and comments after a very 

brief summary of the stakeholder comments.

In total, there were 22 written and 

oral comments. Most were from industry 

associations. Almost all of the respondents 

expressed concern about the continued use of 

copper.

In my review of the written and oral 

comments, I did not find an individual or 

association that recommended the delisting of 

coppers.

So that's a wide, wide range of 
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consideration. Something that nobody has any 

problem talking about as being harmful, 

particularly if you go outside of the parameters 

that I just mentioned.

But when you have the community, and 

some of the community that prides itself in being 

strong on this type of issue, the use of this 

type of product, not coming forward with a with, 

you know, a with a no, that says a lot to me about 

the communities combined thought on how important 

this is, so.

And this is my, actually, my fourth 

presentation on this and the most difficult one 

because after making this four times at full 

Board presentations, it would have been easy to 

blow through this.

Because we've, it's been ratified. 

But I thought, I think, that it's our duty to 

hear the whole ball of wax about this product. 

So any questions? I'll be happy to, to go for.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Any --
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please so 

ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: -- questions for 

Jerry?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Real quick, 

before we start the discussion, and Jerry had 

already said this. Right now we're talking about 

both the coppers fixed and the copper sulfate.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Correct.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Does everyone 

feel comfortable discussing them together, right 

now? Or do you need any distinction made between 

them? Okay, well then, we'll proceed.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Great. Well, 

Jerry, thanks so much for your work on this topic. 

There's been a lot of hours of serious work that 

Jerry has done. And he's brought us a lot of 

information, time, and time again over the 

months.

And I want to point out that the 

technical review that is, that has just come in, 
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I guess, all those, the questions that really 

expanded our knowledge from previous technical 

reviews, were all Jerry.

Jerry, has said, well, we really need 

to find out about this, and this, and this. So 

I really want to thank you for your real concern 

and care about the organic community as a whole.

Just one quick comment, and that is 

that there are many, many new biological controls 

that are coming on the market every year. It's 

really exciting.

And some of them may in the future, 

allow us to get away from as much copper use. 

And that's a prospect that I'm excited about. It 

won't affect my vote today, but it is in the 

future. So that's it.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Well, thank you for 

that. And I thank you for being a great 

colleague and sounding board on a lot of those 

discussions.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, Javier?
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MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes, Jerry, thank 

you. It's one of those substances that we, or 

some of us, some growers rely heavily on knowing 

that it's also, if it's not been carefully used 

can actually killed us farm workers.

I'm with Brian, right there, I think 

we need to come up with a substitute in the near 

future. Or limit, have a budget on how much 

could be used, and when. Because one of the 

questions that I have for you is, I know apple 

growers use it a lot. I know cranberry people 

use it a lot.

At what stage, this is for food 

production, is it used the most? Is it during 

dormancy stage? Is it during flowering or 

blooming? Or is it prior to harvest?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Any farmer want to 

comment to that?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Steve Ela would 

like to comment on that as someone who grows. 

Steve? Because we've talked about this before.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I don't think we 

can actually pull Steve in.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Oh, that's right.

MEMBER SMITH: Sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Despite the 

proximity, it's just that --

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- glass barrier 

right there. Brian, please do.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, I want to 

channel Steve. That's going to be really hard 

to do. But in terms of apple production, 

basically, used early in the season, around bloom 

time for fire blight.

It's phytotoxic, so it isn't used very 

much at all. Sometimes, a little bit, but very 

little when the fruit is growing. And then, at 

post harvest it can be used, after the fruits off 

the trees, to kind of sanitize things. So that's 

my understanding of it. And I hope, Steve, I 

hope I got it right.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do you have 

anything to throw in there, Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: Yes, sure. So it's 

to fight bacterial diseases. We don't use it 

much for fungi, anymore, because we have polyoxin 

D, which we'll be talking about soon. Anyway, 

so we focus it more for bacterial problems, and 

it does depend on the crops.

But it can be phytotoxic, so depending 

on how much rain we do get and how much washing 

we get off of the leaf is really going to adjust 

our rates or our frequency.

But I will state that it has, our use 

of coppers have been reduced because of, you 

know, finding better fungicides for the the fungi 

diseases. So I hope that helps.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Thanks, Logan, 

that's great. Yes, Amy?

MEMBER BURCH: And then, just kind of 

want to, grain crop scenario in the Midwest, we 

get a lot of hail. So we would maybe apply copper 
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hydroxide as just kind of a crop protectant to 

just mitigate any disease after a hailstorm 

because you just have all those injury points on 

a corn plant.

We also, so on the contrary side, you 

know, we're coupling both copper types in here. 

For copper sulfate, I follow the Kinsey-Albrecht 

principles of soil balancing and it's a very 

intentional, quantifiable type soil equation that 

we're working on.

And we recognize just, you know, 

applying these nutrients to the soil and let the 

soil feed the plant, so. And then, one more 

thing to highlight, this program is, you know, 

ranging from wine grape production all the way to 

corn, and everything in between.

This program states at 21 parts per 

million is excessive. In my soils in the 

Midwest, I have 1.59 parts per million of copper. 

So I am applying copper sulfate to get my soils 

and our range of that five to 10 parts per 
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million, which is considered excellent.

And that helps with stock rigidity, 

too. So we have a lot of wind, crazy wind storms 

that come through, 80-plus mile an hour. And so 

this, this helps for our, just standability of 

our crops having the copper levels a certain 

point.

And then, just one piece on, you know, 

how much do we apply and just the math behind 

that. So copper sulfate usually comes in a 23 

percent copper-type format. So approximately 

five pounds applied is one pound of actual copper 

to the soil.

So essentially, I have to, it's two 

pounds of actual copper to raise the parts per 

million of copper in the soil by one. So 10 

pounds of copper sulfate applied should raise the 

parts per million by one part per million.

So you have to apply copper sulfate, 

actual, at a decent level to just raise those 

parts per million in the soil just because of 
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the, you know, percentage of available copper. 

So just, yes, the mathematics behind copper is 

really important to understand.

And once you get that level to a 

certain point, it's kind of a little bit like 

lime in your soil. You know, it's not something 

that you have to then apply year, after year, 

after year. You just kind of maintain that 

level.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're going to 

jump to Carolyn, and then Dilip, and then, 

Javier.

MEMBER TENCER: Okay. So I'm curious 

to understand what crops this is used on. So 

first, I thought it was just apples and wine. 

And now I hear greens. And so, I'm just curious, 

like, how widespread is the use in terms of the 

kinds of crops you would use this for? Thank 

you.

MEMBER D'AMORE: I'll stick with my 

farmers, if I may.
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: Let's go around. 

What do you think, Liz? Can turn your mic on?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: I think like 

potentially all crop production.

MEMBER TENCER: So like the economic 

damage, just to the wine sector isn't like not 

the most important part, even though it says 

here. Okay. So it would be harmful to say, 

other producers?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Tomatoes, grains, 

yes.

MEMBER TENCER: Rice production?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Rice.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Tree fruit.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Potentially fruit, 

definitely fruit.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

MEMBER BURCH: It might be used in 

other ways, you know, depending on the crop. But 

if you're just looking at soil balancing, I mean, 

it can be very versatile for whatever crop you're 
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growing.

MEMBER TENCER: Thanks, farmers.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip?

MEMBER NANDWANI: No, question was 

answered in that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier, Did you 

have another question?

MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes. So I wanted to 

say, again, as a grower, I do know that the value 

was as a nutrient. It's there, and we need, and 

we're barley need it for many, many, many years.

But just the usage, on what 

potentially will be harmful to a human being that 

it's eating, whether it's corn or tomato or an 

apple, that's, that's where I, you know, that's 

that's one of my main concerns there.

Again, yes, there are a lot of rules, 

if we're applying it on how much and when, and 

the protection that it's needed as a farm worker. 
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But so, we just -- and I get it to prevent injury 

after a storm, like what Amy just explained.

So there is, obviously, a need for 

food production. But we have to look forward and 

think of the future. And how can we get away 

with this things that that are really bad for 

humans.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Great point. 

Allison, please go ahead, and then, Brian.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. Jerry, 

thank you so much for this detailed and balanced 

presentation. It's really helpful, as I consider 

my seat on the Board as the public interest 

representative and representing the voices of 

farm workers, ecology, everyone who isn't here on 

the Board.

And trying to balance that with the 

very real needs of the organic farming community. 

And I think these materials are particularly 

tricky. And it, it's, I'm struggling with it.

Because as we advocate for taking 
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harmful materials off the market, the line that 

I always hear over and over is, our industry 

collapses without this material. We need this 

material.

And then lo and behold, when one is 

gone, life goes on. So I really appreciate all 

of your experience and the anecdotes about how 

you use these materials. And I'll just say 

directly that I'm trying to balance that with 

those who aren't in the room.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, just to add on 

to what Javier and Liz mentioned. That for 

tomatoes, in contrast with apples, it can be 

used, right, right up to a day or two before 

harvest. So you can, you know, actually have 

some residues on the fruit.

And they've, you know, hopefully 

figured that out so that those residues -- and 

they have figured it out. Those residues are not 
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toxic to the consumer. But they are there, so.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Thanks, Brian,

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER TURNER: I just want to 

acknowledge Allison's comments, and say I'm in 

the same, I'm struggling with the same issues 

here. And I just want to ask the farmers again, 

are we comfortable? Farmers in particular, are 

we comfortable with the way this is listed? The 

way it's written in the listing?

And are we comfortable that we've got 

enough going on, in everything we're doing? I'm 

including research priorities. I'm including 

everything we're trying to do to sort of move 

this along.

Because I don't want to conflate of a 

lot of issues that we're dealing with today. But 

I do want to ask that specific question. Are we 

doing enough?

Are we doing enough as a Board to move 
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this along, and get this, and get this figured 

out in a different way? Because I mean, I 

totally hear all your comments. It's very loud 

and clear. But I just, I want to make sure we're 

doing enough today.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And I want to give 

Jerry credit for bringing this is to a different 

discussion than I think it was looked at before. 

We're really considering it in a unique way. My 

farmer take that I want to sort of throw out there 

is not letting perfect be the enemy of the good.

When we think about these materials, 

again, we carry a lot of weight for the damage of 

greater agriculture and how it's used. And when 

we think about that, we require soil tests to use 

these micronutrients.

We have really clear parameters on the 

certifiers and on the enforcement to make sure 

we're not -- and we can always do better, but not 

over applying them.

If we apply that to greater 
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agriculture, or we saw this system be adopted, 

you know, across the entire country, we suddenly 

realized rapid pollution decreases.

And so, I think when we were 

considering how much to change ourselves, I just 

don't want us to lose the forest for the trees as 

to how good of a job organic is doing.

And that we don't necessarily need to 

be thinking about how to compensate for all the 

ways this product, these products are misused. 

Carolyn, please go ahead.

MEMBER TENCER: Nate, could you just 

elaborate on the point you made about soil 

testing, and the role of the certifier, and 

inspector, and the farmer in terms of usage? 

Because I think that's another important 

consideration.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hey, Kyla, what 

is the citation for micronutrients on the 

National List?

MEMBER SMITH: Well, I mean, I think 
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there -- well, we're going to talk about 

micronutrients --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We are.

MEMBER SMITH: -- later. But I would 

say in reference to this, it does say it must not 

be used in a manner, or it must be used in a 

manner that minimizes the accumulation of soil, 

or of copper, accumulation of copper in the soil.

Anyway, so that is often evaluated 

through testing. And year over year, producers 

will show that they're compliant with that 

through soil testing.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So if you have 

this product on your inputs list as a farmer, 

your certifier is going to flag it as something 

to watch, monitor.

That if you're going to keep using it 

year after year, you have to show how you're 

managing it in the soil and present the soil tests 

to your inspector or certifier.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.
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MEMBER TENCER: Thank you.

MEMBER D'AMORE: May I?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, Jerry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you for that. 

My first initiation to this substance or this 

material was in aquatic uses. And it alarmed me 

so much that I really went out of my way and 

probably was a pain in the neck to some 

certifiers.

As to, what exactly happens on the 

ground? How long do you keep the records? And 

the reason I am giving you the presentation that 

I am, is because at that level, I really derived 

a great sense of satisfaction.

Great sense of comfort, that it is 

being watched, and records are being kept, and 

things are staying in check. So that was going 

to be my last piece, is to call on a certifier 

and say, hey, help us with this, but. So I concur 

with what you just said entirely.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think in 

response to this, this discussion it would be 

awesome to see ACA, or other certifiers 

articulate and examine how they manage this 

material. And think about, is it good enough?

Not necessarily for us to act on MSB, 

in the moment. But to have a little bit of 

perspective as to how this is going. I think 

that was something Jerry raised that was very 

interesting to me. Let's jump to Amy, and then, 

Mindee.

MEMBER BURCH: And my comment, again, 

is on copper sulfate. So this is this soil 

applied copper form. From a farmer point of 

view, this element is really expensive. And like 

I did the calculations, you need a lot of pounds 

to raise the parts per million by just one.

So we are, as farmers, really good 

stewards of this particular nutrient just because 

of the expense. And you need specialized 

equipment to deliver this to your soil. Because 
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we're applying five pounds per acre.

So a few marbles in a very large area, 

if you can imagine that. So we need specialized 

equipment that can deliver precisely that amount 

to our crops. And on our farm, we're actually 

using soil maps and variable rating lists.

So we only apply it in certain areas 

on one field, just because of the expense. But 

it does, there is a difference. And Jerry, you 

highlighted that.

When it's applied on, you know, like 

we discussed last year, in rice production, 

directly in the water that is very different in 

how that's digested compared to applying it in 

the soil.

And also, I never, or I forgot to 

recognize you for all the work that you've done 

on this topic. I really appreciate your 

immersion into this area. It's really important. 

And this discussion is really important. But I 

just wanted to provide that math for you, too, 
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Carolyn.

MEMBER TENCER: Great, thank you. I 

really appreciate that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please go ahead, 

Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you. I 

also feel the pain of the decision making here. 

And I appreciate that, what I might characterize 

as some of our more conservative stakeholders are 

acknowledging the pain of this issue, but also 

supporting relisting.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Correct.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, Kyla?

MEMBER SMITH: Okay, sorry, one more 

comment. So, I think copper can get a little 

confusing because it is so many places on the 

National List, right? So we are talking about 

coppers fixed, here. And copper sulfate for 

plant disease control.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Correct.
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MEMBER SMITH: I do think that some 

of the comments, Amy, that you're actually making 

more go into, as a soil amendment under the 

micronutrients.

MEMBER BURCH: Yes.

MEMBER SMITH: Right? Okay. So just 

want to make sure that we're clear on what we're 

talking about. So Logan was giving examples more 

relevant to this particular listing. And when I 

was talking about certifier oversight, and I was 

speaking specifically to that, and the 

accumulation in the soil.

When we get to micronutrients and talk 

about copper, again, then there's a totally 

separate annotation that we can dig into more. 

But I just want to make sure everybody was clear, 

because it was getting a little bit confusing.

MEMBER TENCER: I'm just going to 

crack a joke here. Clear as mud. Thanks, Kyla.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

certifier.
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MEMBER PETREY: Nate, I have one other 

short comment.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure.

MEMBER PETREY: And it was more to 

Woods' statement about the, you know, making 

progress with copper. And just, even in the 

conventional world, copper has been around a long 

time. They're still there.

It's about the only bacteria side that 

we use. Because we don't use, you know, a lot 

of antibiotics, and for agriculture. We really 

stay away from those a lot. So I don't know how 

much developments, or what we could expect to get 

away from coppers.

Bacteria is always going to be a 

pathogen for plants, and it's a significant 

pathogen. You know, and to answer some of those, 

like how devastating would it be?

For certain crops, I don't grow many 

crops that have devastating issues from bacterial 

diseases, but there are some that are very bad, 
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and can cause complete crop failure.

And so, I don't see this getting off 

the list. I don't see a whole lot of progress. 

I think the progress made is to follow the label. 

Because like Brian stated, they have, there's 

been a lot of research done on as far as the 

residuals, and how you're supposed to handle that 

from a consumer, you know, safety standpoint.

And so, as long as the growers are 

following that, following the rules. But I think 

coppers are going to be on there for quite a while 

just because there isn't, you know, much 

innovation that's able to be done there. Just 

because we stay away from antibiotics.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's super 

helpful, Logan. Okay, appreciate that.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Nate, okay, so I 

think we're ready. I'd like to make just two 

other comments. Number one, for our 

stakeholders, I think you can see the kind of 

discussions that we have on these compounds. I 
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mean, there's a lot of in depth work, a lot of 

research, and a lot of pain too.

Because I think nobody wants to have 

some of these compounds around. And you're 

forced, in a way, on this committee, and maybe 

it's a good thing I'm getting off, so I won't be 

forced anymore, to make these decisions about, 

you know, things you don't really want, but you 

sort of need.

And I'd just like to make that point. 

And again, with the Subcommittee, we have really 

in depth discussions with a lot of knowledgeable 

people, and people that are willing to spend the 

time to dig in.

And in particular, on the sunsets 

because people think we just rubber stamp the 

sunsets. Not true at all. I mean, we've gotten 

way deep on these things, sometimes just to end 

up confusing us.

But at least we look at it. We don't 

want a rubber stamp them So, I'll go ahead. 
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We're going to do two votes. The first one is 

to remove fixed coppers from the National List. 

And that was a motion by Jerry, and seconded by 

Brian to not remove it. So, Nate?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We're 

going to start the voting with Javier.

MEMBER ZAMORA: As painful as sounds, 

no.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.
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MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Hold on, Nate, I got a 

little lost here. Okay, so that's two yes, 13 

no, zero abstention, recusal, or absent. The 

motion fails.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Thank you. So, 

the next sunset is polyoxin D.

MEMBER D'AMORE: You want to do the, 

we have to do the --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have to do the 

second copper.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Oh, yes, that's 

right. Yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. The second 

topic is to remove copper sulfate and other 

copper --

MEMBER D'AMORE: No, sir. This is 

just the copper sulfate, then.
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, right, copper 

sulfate.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Remove copper 

sulfate from the National List. The motion was 

by Jerry in the Subcommittee, and seconded by 

Amy. There was -- the problem is I get a referral 

on this.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, yes, sure the 

was --

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Nate, you can 

read.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So one yes, five 

noes, one abstention, and one absent out of 

Subcommittee to the full Board.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

we're going to start the voting with Allison.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: And that's two yes, 13 

no, zero abstention, recusal, or absent. The 

motion fails.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Now --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So real quick, a 

time check, Rick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So we got 12 

minutes. We do have, we have to go to lunch at 

12:30. Do we feel confident we could get 

polyoxin D in 12 minutes? All right.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian's feeling 

confident. Okay.

. All right. Okay. Brian's feeling confident. 

Okay.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Take it Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, Logan's 

disagreeing, dissenting. Do you want to -- we're 

going give it a college try, Logan. We may have 

to come.

MEMBER PETREY: Give it a shot.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

MEMBER PETREY: Give a shot. I'm 

thinking for me, but it's a lot to cover, so. So 

we'll get on the soap box for you two.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.
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MEMBER PETREY: You're ahead of 

lunch.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All yours, Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: All right. The 

timing of this is excellent. Coming right after 

copper. Because this may be an alternative to 

copper use, as Logan pointed out. So polyoxin 

D, zinc salt, is a microbial product.

And it classed as synthetic because 

the actual substance polyoxin D degrades pretty 

quickly. So they make it into a zinc salt that's 

more, a little more stable in the soil, in the 

environment.

It is an effective fungicide. And 

that's important because sometimes we say, well, 

what about alternatives? And, and yes, sometimes 

there are alternatives, but they may not be 

really economically effective.

So this is one that is, by all 

accounts pretty effective against fungal 

pathogens. Okay. The way that polyoxin D works 
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is that inhibits pathways of chitin formation. 

And chitin is a critical part of fungi and 

insects.

And so, there are, there's questions 

as to whether polyoxin D would have negative 

effects on soil biota, particularly soil fungi, 

and insects in the soil.

And the, the kind of the counter to 

that, is that it is not very persistent. Even 

though it does have that zinc ion on it. And the 

half life is considered to be 16 days in the soil 

and 2.3 days in, when it's exposed to sunlight in 

the environment, which is relatively short 

periods.

Now, it has low toxicity to humans, 

animals, and bacteria, low toxicity to plants. 

For earthworms, there was a comment, a quote in 

the technical review, saying that the EPA, 

"deemed the effects to be below the level of 

concern for earthworms."

And just to finish up here, in the 
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written comments, there were eight in favor of 

relisting, one against, two said look closer at 

this. And in particular, that we needed more 

research on the effects of polyoxin D on soil 

fungi, and insects.

And just the last comment is that, as 

I mentioned before, there are more of these 

microbial based products that are in the 

pipeline. And that this is, this is the way I 

see it, the avenue of reducing some of the other 

fungicides like copper that are less desirable. 

So ready for questions.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

Brian? Allison, please go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks, Brian. I 

see the note here about the potential for a 

cross-resistance. And I'm curious if you have 

any more info about how widespread the use is. 

And that, that I think plays a very important 

role in the risks of developing resistance and 
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the transfer to human medicine.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, so talking 

about the possible effects if similar products 

were used in human medicine. And I was very 

concerned about this one when I first took this 

on.

But it really seemed like the comments 

from the community, in general, were that it's 

not, polyoxin D is not currently used against 

human fungal diseases, which it would seem to 

have potential for, but actually it's --

I don't remember the exact reason that 

reason, but within the human body, it takes a 

really huge amount of it to affect any kind of 

fungi. That, you know, the fungal diseases are 

pretty rare, but they're becoming more common in 

people.

And it seemed like the concerns for 

crossovers, by people who know about this, were 

not -- I don't want to say not significant, but 

they were not a level of concern. So, yes, 
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that's great. We really want to vet these things 

out as best we can, so.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Brian. You 

have very wonderful insight on this one. Very 

quick, I know we are less desirable on copper 

uses, and we had a lot of discussion. And you 

mentioned about, that it could be alternative to 

that copper.

So do you see this as a, like, a viable 

alternative in future? It's coming, maybe, when 

its uses are increased, we know more about this 

product? Than it could be acceptable from the 

stakeholders and community? Thank you.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, great 

question, Dilip. Well, so an important 

distinction that Logan made. Polyoxin D is 

effective against fungi, but not against 

bacteria. And so, bacterial diseases may, you 

know, hopefully we'll find other alternatives for 
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them.

But this will not help against the, to 

reduce the copper when it's used for bacterial 

diseases. However, historically, I mean, back, 

you know, ten, 15 years ago, copper was kind of 

used for everything, any kind of plant disease as 

almost the first line of defense.

And polyoxin D is effective against so 

many pathogenic fungi that it, as Logan pointed 

out, can really reduce the amount of copper 

that's used for those kinds of pathogens.

Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

for Brian? Go ahead, Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: So am I correct 

in understanding this is, came onto the list in 

2019? I did see the suggestion that we might 

need a little bit more time on this one, because 

it's a fairly new substance. I just want to 

highlight that. I saw that in the comments.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No, 2012 is when the 
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TR was written.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Right. But it 

says a 2018 recommendation, and I think I saw in 

public comments that, that went live at 2019. Do 

you know?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: I read the same.

MEMBER PETREY: It's new.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: It says 2019.

MR. CLARK: Yes, it was added in 2019.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Great, thank 

you, Nate.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay.

MEMBER PETREY: It's new to organics. 

I'm looking at like an EPA sheet from 2001. And 

it's saying that it has, and this is not for 

organics, obviously. This polyoxin D salt, 

they're just saying that --

It says, based on required toxicity 

tests no risk to humans are expected from 

products that contain the active ingredient, or 

use it, used by the label directions, and as low 
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or no risk to environment.

So I mean, it's, it is new to the 

organics because we would have been using it 

earlier than last year, last couple years.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee, please go 

ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes, thank you, 

Logan. Thank you, also Jared, for that 

clarification. It's compelling to me that a 

previous Board voted substance on the list, and 

it could behoove us, as a community, to let it 

play out in its use, and keep paying attention to 

the concerns.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Okay. Any more?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, anymore? 

Shockingly, that I think we might be able to get 

this done, folks.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Just one last 

comment that I made. And that is that, this 

product is used in very small quantities per 
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acre, as well, which is a plus, so.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

MEMBER PETREY: That's a good point. 

Like copper is used at like one or two pounds to 

the acre on, depending on the, I guess, depending 

on the active ingredient percentage. But you use 

like eight fluid ounces of polyoxin D. I don't 

know the active ingredient amount.

But it is small. He is correct in 

that. And then, if you were to use Cueva, which 

is a liquid copper, you're using, the rate is 

like one to two gallons per acre for a leveled 

rate. So you are right, Brian, it much smaller.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

as luck would have it Brian, you are the first 

vote on this.

MEMBER SMITH: Wait you have to --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh sorry, we have 

to read into the thing.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I need to make the 

motion.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: So the motion is 

to remove polyoxin D, zinc salt, from the 

National List. And it left the Committee, Brian 

made the motion, Amy seconded, and it was 

unanimous. Or no? Yes.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Wait, I have a 

reflection here.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: There's five 

noes, and three absent.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Go 

ahead, Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.
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MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 

noes, zero absent abstentions, recusals. The 

motion fails.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, folks, 

with a minute to spare. Nice work. So we're 

going to keep the crop party going after lunch. 

But we'll have 90 minutes for lunch. So see you 

back here.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: And we'll be back 

for the Logan show.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We'll be back for 
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the Logan show, yes. All right.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Thanks, everybody.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 12:29 p.m. and resumed at 

2:05 p.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So to get kicked 

off, we're going to start with -- and I'll hand 

it back to Rick. Start with Amy. And just 

again, a reminder on the agenda, all of Logan's 

materials are going to be combined at the end.

So we're going to break up 

micronutrients. It's going to be Amy. Then 

we're going to go to Wood with vitamins, and then 

we're going to go to Javier with lead salts. And 

then, we're going to go to Logan.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. No, thanks, 

Nate. So Amy, humic acids.

MEMBER BURCH: Thank you, Rick. 

Welcome back everybody, good afternoon. All 

right. We are starting with humic acids. And 

should I read this into the record?
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, if you want 

to just give it a high level description. Then, 

Rick will read it into the record, and they'll 

vote.

MEMBER BURCH: Okay, that sounds 

good. So, this is in regards to using humic 

acid, and as a plant or soil amendment, and it is 

with alkali extracts only. Humic acids can be 

swill applied or foliar applied depending on the 

specific product.

Humic acid affects soil fertility by 

making micronutrients more readily available to 

plants and contributing, oh sorry, making 

micronutrients that are already available in the 

soil more available to plants, not necessarily 

contributing any nutrients to the soil itself.

According to the TR, humic substances 

can chelate or bind soil nutrients, improve 

nutrient uptake, reduce the need for nitrogen 

fertilizer, remove toxins from soils, and 

increase biological activity.
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Commercially available, humic acids 

are derived from leonardite lignite, or coal 

extracts, from non-synthetic humates by 

hydrolysis using synthetic or non-synthetic 

alkaline materials are permitted including the 

use of sodium, potassium, and ammonia hydroxide.

So that's somewhat similar to how we 

started off crops, talking about potassium 

hydroxide. And I will get to that comment about 

fortification in just a little bit. And I'd like 

to probably pull in Brian again because we talked 

about that earlier.

So I'm tipping you off. But anyway, 

there were 13 commenters in favor of use of humic 

acids. And those were from all functional 

groups, certifiers, as well as farmers, and 

different farmer advocacy groups.

Humic acids are widely used in various 

crops and most of the comments were more towards 

produce or tree fruits. One certifying group 

mentioned that there were 718 members that had 
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humic acids on their OSPs.

Growers also noted that humic acids 

are particularly important in sandy soils. There 

was one certifier, and one advocacy group that 

weren't necessarily opposed to relisting, but 

wanted to know more data on efficacy and 

justification since this mining of the past to 

feed the present, was the comment.

And then there was one advocacy group 

that voted to, or recommended to delist humic 

acids. So that was kind of the disbursement of 

the public comments.

One thing that a material review 

organization brought up is the point 

fortification. Because this is, this process is 

done with the alkali extractants.

And those, again, can be in the forms 

of potassium hydroxide, ammonium hydroxide, et 

cetera. So it, right now, the current 

annotation, and that was the recommendation that 

we actually beef the notation up, because there's 
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no limits, there's no guardrails around this.

So the risk for fortification could 

happen. There's some testing that can be done. 

However, this does not limit what product can be 

used outside of alkali extractants only. So 

there's many different options.

And at the end of the day, it's hard 

to test. So this product, the annotation's a 

little bit vague. So I would recommend maybe 

adding this to a work agenda item to make it more 

clear.

But there's a couple other references 

on our National Lists that make it a little bit 

more clear. One is about aquatic plant extracts. 

And that, right now, the annotation, it's still 

a bit gray, but it's better.

It says, is limited to the use of 

potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide to the 

amount necessary for extraction. But I think we 

can push it that much further. There's also 

recommendations to just annotate it in terms of 
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a pH. That we can use this extract and up to a 

certain pH level.

So right now, we're not necessarily 

voting on the notation. But again, I just wanted 

to highlight that for the Board to know that this 

could potentially have more work to be done to 

it.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. No, thank 

you, Amy. So questions for Amy on humic acids?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right, would 

you read it into the --

MEMBER GREENWOOD: The motion to 

renew humic acids from the National List. In 

Committee, the motion was made by Amy, and 

seconded by me. And it was seven not to remove 

it, unanimous.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

with that, we're going to start with Dilip.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.
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MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

motion fails.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So next 

Amy, again. So you have micronutrients, soluble 

boron products.

MEMBER BURCH: Okay. Moving on to 
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micronutrients focusing only on soluble boron. 

Logan will take up the balance here in a little 

bit. Boron is a micronutrient that can be soil 

or foliar applied. According to the technical 

review --

And we did ask for a new technical 

review this year just because boron was coupled 

with the other micronutrients and we wanted to 

make sure to do enough due diligence on this 

specific micronutrients, so we updated that.

Soluble boron products appeared on the 

National List for use as micronutrients since it 

was first published in the year 2000. It's 

permitted to be used on a international basis as 

well, just for some history there.

And the one thing for environmental 

issues to highlight, it is a mined substance. 

There were 13 comments from our diverse, organic 

functional groups in support of this product.

One comment to note is that soluble 

boron products are essential nutrients for plant 
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development. They're necessary for growers to 

be successful in organics. There were two 

comments that stated they didn't oppose listing 

the substance.

And then there was one advocacy group 

that was in favor of delisting due to 

environmental, health, essentiality, and 

compatibility concerns. And highlighted if, the 

question was if there were in enough 

non-synthetic borates, such as borax to meet the 

needs of organic producers.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you, 

Amy. Questions for Amy, about soluble boron 

products.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Is that your hand 

up, Jerry? Are you raising your hand? Okay. 

Brian, please go ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes, Amy, I'm 

sorry, if you, I don't -- I was not quick enough 

if you wanted me to say something in that past 

discussion.
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But I don't think it made much 

difference. But I'm just wondering why boron is 

separate from everything else in this listing? 

Or maybe, maybe you don't have the history for 

that?

MEMBER BURCH: That's a good 

question. I don't have the history. I think 

that was in inception of the National List.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, I don't know. 

Jared, any idea why it's separate?

MR. CLARK: Not off the top of my 

head.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Okay, no, 

thanks. So any other questions for Amy? Okay. 

So I'll read the motion to remove soluble boron 

products from the National List.

And that came out of Committee. It 

was a motion by Amy, and seconded by Jerry. And 

seven votes from the Committee were no, with one 

absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 
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with that, we start the voting with you, Rick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

motion fails.
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So we'll go 

to Wood, now, vitamins C and E.

MEMBER TURNER: Thanks. The 

substances are vitamin C and E, as listed at 

205.601(j) as plant or soil amendments. Most 

recently, there was a 2015 TR on these materials. 

These vitamins, including synthetically derived 

C, ascorbic acid, and E, tocopheryl, are 

generally considered non-toxic essential 

ingredients for terrestrial and aquatic 

organisms.

Vitamin C and E are used to promote 

both growth and yields, and to protect plants 

from oxidative stress due to salinity. There was 

a previous effort --

The listing originally included C, E, 

and vitamin B1, thiamin, which was, in the 

previous sunset process was separated out from 

the other two vitamins.

And removed on the basis that foliar 

and soil applications of that material 
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definitively not stimulate root growth in 

transplanted crops.

There is still some concern that we 

don't know enough about these materials, about 

whether they actually work. And that's, was 

indicated in the TR from 2015.

The feedback from the community was 

split on these materials, equal, right down the 

middle. We had three that supported delisting 

the material. And three that supported continue 

to list the material.

The discussion tends to be about 

whether or not the material is effective or 

essential. But that's a debated topic among the 

community in terms of the materials themselves. 

Some argue it is. Some argue it isn't.

Those that are using the material or 

support keeping the material on the list suggest 

that it is being used in small, small volumes, 

small quantities, and particularly is important 

in some fruit production.
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So there's, some certifiers have 

suggested that they have been a number of client 

users who use the materials. So the community 

is split.

That said, in our discussions as a 

Subcommittee we considered to be compliant with 

OFPA, and did not propose, or are not proposing 

removal.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay, thank you. 

Any questions for Wood?

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Wood. It's 

very quick. I'm just reading here about this, 

environmental issues. And just wondering, you 

can probably quickly tell about. It says that 

inorganic compounds such as boron, and what we 

are discussing, its an inorganic compounds.

I'm just wondering about, do you know? 

Organic form or organic compounds of these 

micronutrients? Perhaps Brian or somebody else 

would know?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I think you're in 
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the --

MEMBER TURNER: I don't think I'm 

following your question.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Now, it's you're 

in the wrong --

MEMBER TURNER: We're in vitamin C and 

E.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: -- vitamin C and 

E.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes, so --

MEMBER GREENWOOD: That's going to be 

next.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Sorry.

MEMBER TURNER: Okay. All good, all 

good.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Any, any 

other questions? Okay.

MEMBER TURNER: All right.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I'll read into. 

The motion is to remove vitamin C and E from the 

National List. Motion was by Wood in the 
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Committee, seconded by Brian, and seven no votes 

in the Committee.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And with that, 

we'll start the voting with Amy.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.
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MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

Motion fails.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you. 

So last, before we get to Logan's group, we have 

Javier. This is Javier's first sunset, so take 

it away.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Thank you, Rick. 

Thank you for making it easy for me. This is 

shouldn't be any controversy here. It's lead 

salts. Lead salts is listed on our National 

Organic List of Substances as 205.602(d).

Lead salts are listed as a 

non-synthetic prohibited material that has some 

really adverse health consequences if people eat 

it, or inhale it. So most of the comments that 

we got, if not all, they suggested that it should 

be on the list as prohibited material. And most 

of the Board members are agree to that.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. No, thank 

you. And good job. So the issue, I think, with 
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lead salts is one of those that we don't have to 

argue about. It's sort of nice to come across a 

compound like that. So any questions? Okay, 

no.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any burning 

desire to have lead salt back in use?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, we got rid of 

leaded gasoline. We might as well get rid of 

leaded salts. So the motion to remove lead salts 

from the National List, and it was by Javier, and 

seconded by Amy, and the committee had seven no 

votes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

MEMBER SMITH: So just to be clear, a 

no vote would remove it. And because it's a 

non-synthetic, it would allow, be allowed to be 

used. So just making sure. It's like opposite, 

opposite day.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Because it's on 

the Prohibited Natural List.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.
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MEMBER SMITH: Okay. So, a no vote 

keeps it on, which means it's prohibited.

DR. TUCKER: Yes, the real question 

here, folks, when you get confused is, are you 

voting to change the list or not? It's that 

simple. Are you are voting to change the list 

or not? If you're voting to change the list than 

vote, yes.

If you're voting not to change the 

list, vote no. And that applies to every single 

vote. That's the underlying I in principle here, 

is are you voting to change the list or not?

MEMBER SMITH: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. I 

think we start with Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: The Chair votes 

no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, refusals, or absent. The motion 

fails.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Logan, so 

why don't we start then with your first thing on 

the list, which was the proposal carbon dioxide 

as a petition substance?

DR. TUCKER: Hey before --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan, one 

second.
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DR. TUCKER: -- so before we move to 

Logan, I would like to call a point of order. 

Somebody previously thanked Logan for not having 

her baby, so we could do this.

I would actually say we ought to thank 

Logan's baby. And so, I think, Logan, I did want 

to jump in before you started, just to say thank 

you for engaging online like this.

We have never -- well, we haven't done 

this since somebody broke a femur a few years 

ago, which was a very, kind of early experiment. 

And you're handling this with such grace. And 

just so seamlessly. I did want to thank you for 

your participation.

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you.

DR. TUCKER: And thank your baby, for 

holding on.

MEMBER PETREY: I'll let him know. 

I'll let him know. Thank you. Well, thank you 

all for accommodating me. It means a lot, so 

thank you, very much. And my husband didn't want 
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me traveling over there. So thank you, very 

much.

Okay. We'll start with carbon 

dioxide. And then, I'll just work through the 

sunsets except biodegradable biogas mulch is 

going to go last. Is that correct?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's correct, 

yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Correct.

MEMBER PETREY: Correct, okay. All 

right, so carbon dioxide, we received a petition. 

It seems like a long time ago. But as my first 

proposal, went through some of the issues there.

I guess, most of the Board members 

remember that I didn't decouple some of those. 

The two requests to have it as, I mean, 205.601(a) 

and (j). So (a) would be an outside 

disinfectants and sanitizer for irrigation. And 

then, (j) as plant and soil amendments.

And we have moved (j) to the spring. 

We've requested a TR. So we're just going to 
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focus today on the algaecide disinfectants and 

sanitizer for the irrigation, for that use. So 

for that use, we have received a lot of comments.

And most have been in favor, you know, 

of needing this, or it being a good alternative. 

So the current alternatives right now, they have 

citric acid, sulfur burners, and saying that the 

CO2 would be a good fit because it is a safer 

product.

Okay. So get into the Subcommittee 

review. Carbon dioxide is understood to be a 

material with low, or inherently low risk. We 

do have it as a processing aid. But 

non-synthetic sources are not available due to 

the lack of infrastructure from ethanol plants.

Just doing some research there, and 

they don't have the sufficient supply needed. 

And it is also, at 205.605 as a synthetic as well 

in the processing for the same reasons. So what 

is the need for carbon dioxide? And why do we 

need to reduce pH or clean out lines?
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And a lot of this is going to be more 

in, like, your drip lines. Maybe a couple drip 

farmers on there, I'm sure that they could tell 

you guys that, you know, drip has very small 

emitters on it that, for water to be able to leach 

out.

And they get clogged up by 

bicarbonates if you're in alkaline soil, or by 

algae, algal build-up. And so, lowering the pH 

can clean out or flush these lines. And so, if 

you are clogged up, I mean it can be very

detrimental to your crop.

So using this is to be able to flush 

out. And so, from the commenters, when we saw 

comments from people who actually run into this 

issue, they were in support of using a new 

product. Now, there were some groups and 

coalitions that say we didn't have any farmers 

that requested the need.

And maybe, they didn't have farmers 

that ever used any pH adjusters in their in their 
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water supply for, you know, for the irrigation. 

But the ones that do use pH adjusters were 

desiring to use, to carbon dioxide as a 

alternative.

And so, again, we are kicking the 

other one to the spring for a TR report, or with 

a TR. And as far as alternatives, compatibility, 

we talked about the circle sulfur burners and 

citric acid.

Sulfur burners creates sulfuric acid 

by dissolving the fumes of burning sulfur and 

irrigation water. Pure sulfur is an odorless, 

tasteless, light yellow, solid, usually solid, or 

blocks or pellets. But it is, it kind of can be 

irritating to the skin, irritating to the eyes.

And under acidic conditions, sulfuric 

acid may liberate sulfuric dioxide, which can be 

a respiratory concern. So again, from talking 

with some growers that are using this product, 

they are interested in carbon dioxide, which 

would be an inherently low risk and easier to 
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use.

Also, there is a limit. Because it's 

a natural process, there's a limit to the pH that 

the water can get to, which is a pH of five, just 

due to the carbonic acid and the saturation of 

that.

And so as far as, also, any byproducts 

that may come off of it, just carbonic acid. 

It's a very, very natural deal. Anyways, I'll 

go ahead because I know we got a long list. And 

are there any questions from you guys?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

Logan? All right.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, Amy, did you 

have one? Allison?

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you, Logan. 

And sorry, if they missed this piece. Can you 

repeat or clarify? It says this, this is a 

recycling process. Is that, does that mean 

you're pulling CO2 from the atmosphere and using 
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it?

MEMBER PETREY: Sure. Well, no, it's 

from plants. Let me see, specifically, which 

type of plants. But it's when it is captured. 

And right now, because they're shoving carbon 

dioxide -- what I don't understand.

They're shoving like carbon dioxide 

into mines, or into like holes, or something in 

the ground to store it, so that it's not being 

released, also, from some kind of manufacturing 

process.

And so, this is used, instead of 

either releasing it into the air, or trying to 

hide it somewhere in the ground, they're using 

that product.

So it's not, nothing is being produced 

for this use, for this product. It is being used 

as a byproduct, or being pulled off from 

byproduct process.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No, thanks, Logan. 

Seeing no other questions. So we have the motion 
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to add carbon dioxide as an algaecide, 

disinfectant, and sanitizer to irrigation systems 

for cleaning.

And it came out of Committee. It was 

motion by Logan. I seconded it. And six of us 

were in favor of adding it. Two were absent at 

that Committee meeting.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

we're going to start the voting. Start the 

voting with Mindee. And so, for this one, let's 

clarify, Kyla. For a proposal --

MEMBER SMITH: I like the way Jenny 

put it. Change in the list. So that mean, 

adding this is a yes. Okay?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

MEMBER TENCER: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: Yes.
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MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

MEMBER BURCH: Yes.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes yes.

MEMBER SMITH: That's 15 yes, zero no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

motion passes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Thank you, 

Logan. So now, we go on to micronutrients, 

sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of 

zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, 

selenium, and cobalt.

MEMBER PETREY: And I have no idea why 

boron is not part of this one either, so. I 

don't know. But, okay, so I guess, we're going 
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to talk about micronutrients at 205.601(j).

And as I stated before with other 

micronutrients, they are very important and can 

be very limited in soils. But they cannot be 

used as a defoliant, herbicide, or desiccant.

Those made from nitrates or chlorates 

are not allowed. Micronutrient deficiency must 

be documented by soil or tissue testing, or other 

documented and verifiable method as approved by 

the certifying agency.

So, again, as Kyla mentioned before 

with other things, they're flagged that we need 

to be testing. And farmers are taking tissue 

samples and soil samples to be able to identify 

that.

Usually these are, can be expensive. 

So we do, they're used minimally. And they're 

also minimally needed by the plant. But they are 

vital for plant growth and plant production.

As far as the comments, there was one 

group that -- so overwhelmingly in support. 
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There's one group that was, that stated that 

synthetics aren't compatible and may not be 

needed.

However, most of the other commenters 

are saying that the natural sources are very slow 

to break down and would not provide the need that 

we have for these micronutrients.

As far as environmental issues there 

can be buildups and that considers heavy metals. 

But at the rates that we use them, and because of 

the testing, and that's why the annotation is in 

there to protect that, and for that not to be an 

issue there. Are there any discussions or any 

comments?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Questions about, 

it's big basket. But essentially, they're all 

the same in their use. So any questions or 

comments? Yes?

MEMBER TENCER: I have a question. 

And I apologize farmers, because I'm sure this is 

really obvious to you. But is this is really the 
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only way to add this to the soil?

So if you're like rotating your crops, 

and cover cropping, and doing all of those things 

to build your soil organic matter, is it that 

these things just don't come at the correct rate? 

I know I'm sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do not apologize. 

That is a great question.

MEMBER TENCER: Well, it just shows 

how little you know when you're not a farmer.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, go ahead, 

Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: So the, the way that 

I actually apply a lot of these is fully foliarly. 

Add it to water, and then it's sprayed on the 

leaves. Especially if tomatoes, which are such 

a high nutrient requiring crop. And in such 

very, very small, small amounts.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Any other?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do you want 

to -- some, Amy, as well?
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MEMBER BURCH: Yes, absolutely.

MEMBER BURCH: Carolyn, it's a great 

question. We always talk about complementary 

rotations, and trying to build our soil nutrient 

levels.

You know, in general, a lot of the 

nitrogen can be generated through complimentary 

rotations and certain cover crops that are 

legumes, can contribute nitrogen to the soils. 

But that strategy is a bit limited when it comes 

to micronutrients and trace elements. So we're 

typically doing that to fluctuate some of our 

macronutrients.

MEMBER TENCER: Thank you.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes, but it's a good 

question. And actually, I had a comment, Logan. 

And maybe I'll pull in Kyla for this. This was 

a situation by a fellow farmer of mine. He put 

on a starter fertilizer. So mainly, a component 

was a macro nutrient.

However, the in that composition of 
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the starter fertilizer, there was a small 

fractional amount of zinc. So I'd say that 

fractional amount was maybe like .01. And the 

case was a soil test wasn't necessarily a 

supplied to document zinc deficiency.

Even though the functionality of that 

starter fertilizer wasn't to deliver zinc. It 

was just a blended type product with very nominal 

amounts of anything else outside of a phosphorus 

component.

So I'm just kind of questioning what 

the protocol or procedure would be. I think, I 

believe he got a non-compliance just because he 

didn't deliver that soil deficiency documentation 

for zinc. And it just wasn't as practical of an 

application, so.

MEMBER BURCH: That's strict.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes, unfortunately, 

that's what annotation point says. However, I 

will say that, I forget when exactly it happened, 

but they the annotation did change. Well, now 
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I'm getting confused. Hold on a second.

Oh, yes. So it did change and there 

was the last bit that said, or other documented 

and verifiable method as approved by the 

certifying agent. So we will, PCO, I know, in 

our policy will look at other like third-party, 

you know, research information.

That could support that in a case 

where the operator didn't do testing, or 

sometimes it's just that the the plant can't take 

it up. So the soil is not deficient or 

something. So something like that, that further 

justifies the plants need even though this, the 

soil is not showing a deficiency.

So that was added because it was a 

little bit too strict and boxed in. And I think 

that operators have been appreciative of that 

opening up. I know, I did read that in the public 

comments as well.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: And Carolyn, one 

other thing. I'm a tree grower. We do leaf 
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analysis and I have zinc problem. So I've added 

zinc and we don't do crop rotation. My trees 

have been there forever.

So when we talk about agriculture, 

it's just not all row crops and there are a lot 

of fixed things. And you know, the apple 

growers, I guess, might do that, too. I wouldn't 

know. Anyhow, okay, any other questions? Yes?

MEMBER ZAMORA: Just a little 

comment, as a grower, from a farmer to a scholar. 

We have pretty much 18 nutrients that we need to 

grow things, big, medium, small, NPK big. 

Magnesium, calcium, manganese, all those things, 

smaller.

And the little BB gun pellets are the 

micronutrients. We use them very little. 

Unless, you have, you grow something that eats a 

lot of zinc, like he said.

And then, you need to demonstrate that 

it's needed with the soil sampling, or a tissue 

sampling. So these are actually very minute 
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things.

But as growers, and based on what you 

grow, sometimes you need them to make sure you 

have a viable crop. So that's, I hope, that's 

my scholar-farming thing.

That's how I understand it. I mean, 

you have 18 that, the last one out of the 18 might 

be bleached that we need for plants to grow. So 

that's how.

MEMBER TENCER: That's really cool. 

I'm going to use that in my classes, big, medium, 

and small.

MEMBER ZAMORA: I'll do a Zoom call 

on your class.

MEMBER TENCER: Thank you, so much.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay Thanks, 

Logan. So the motion to remove micronutrients, 

sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of 

zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, 

selenium, and cobalt from the National List came 

out of committee. The motion was by Logan, 
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seconded by Amy, seven no, and one absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're going 

to start the voting with Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 noes, zero 
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absent, recusal, or abstentions. The motion 

fails.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay, thank you. 

So, Logan, you have squid byproducts. And I 

remember when you came to me and asked to have 

all these sunsets. I was really surprised. But 

you know, I'm glad we were able to let you do 

this.

MEMBER PETREY: The event was easy.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: That was my 

recollection, any way.

MEMBER PETREY: Yes, yes I was, I was 

throwing my hand up. So squid seemed fun. So 

anyway, it's, you know squids kind of easy. So, 

okay. So we squid byproducts listed at 

205.601(j).

So squid byproducts, they must be from 

food processing-wise only. And it can be 

adjusted with the sulfuric citric, or phosphoric 

acid. The amount of acid shall not exceed a 

minimum needed to lower the pH at 3.5.
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And that is to maintain stability. 

And so, that they don't decompose that moment. 

Because that that is not, not a fun deal to deal 

with. Okay, so squid it has to be listed 

separately from fish because it's not a fish.

And so, that is why it's added 

separately. Interesting point is that squid 

species, they die after they spawn. And so, 

that, it is limited to harvesting squid after 

that, right before that they die, or as they're 

dying.

And so this is considered to be, not 

an effect on the biodiversity or the diversity in 

this species in there. So it is limited to those 

fisheries and after that process.

So squid what's its use, it's as a 

fertilizer, having the NPK values as low as 222 

to 372. Okay, so it is a relatively low 

fertilizer. That's typical for some of the 

organics.

And as far as the public comments, 
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most in favor, all that one is what I saw. All 

about one, which is against the synthetic, you 

know, the adding the acids to it, you know, and 

having to use that product. They say was it not 

needed.

But all others were in support, so 

that it fit. It's like the liquid fish, as well. 

And otherwise, no environmental issues because, 

like I said, harvested after that. Are any 

questions?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes, questions for 

Logan on liquid squid products, byproducts?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Jared, is this 

one of those 2019 additions?

MR. CLARK: Yes, this was also added 

in 2019.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay, hearing 

nothing else, the motion to remove squid 

byproducts from the National List left the 
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committee with the motion from Logan, seconded by 

Brian, seven no, and one absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And with that, 

we're going to start the voting with Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No, from Kim, as 
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well.

MEMBER SMITH: Oh, I'm sorry, 

almost -- I'm sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, recusals, or absent. The motion 

fails.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Oh, wait, 

it's Logan, again. Tobacco dust, nicotine 

sulfate.

MEMBER PETREY: This is like that lead 

salt. It's pretty easy. Okay, so this is a 

natural, prohibited substance. Tobacco dust at 

205.602(j), nicotine sulfate. It's been on the 

list since the inception, so.

And understandably why, it is harmful 

to humans. And so, it says nicotine is a natural 

insecticide produced as a secondary metabolite in 

tobacco. Tobacco dust can be used in agriculture 

for pest control.

And the dust is a byproduct of waste. 
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It can be homemade. And so, that's, you know, 

we're having to keep it on the list to make sure 

that none of these are used. The commenters are 

100 percent for keeping it on the list as a 

prohibited substance.

Also all the international 

acceptances, there's no reference to tobacco 

dust. But our Subcommittee voted all in favor 

of keeping it on, as well. So are there any 

questions now?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Now, thank you, 

Logan. And this is the same as the lead salts. 

I mean, it's on the list as a prohibited 

substance. So any other questions? So the 

motion to remove tobacco dust, nicotine sulfide, 

at 205.602. And the motion out of Committee was 

Logan, seconded by Wood. Seven noes and one 

absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

we're going to start the voting with Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: No.
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MEMBER TENCER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BURCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, refusals, or absent. The motion 

fails.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And folks, there 

are a few exciting things about this particular 
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agenda other than everything. So I propose we 

take a quick break. And then, give Logan a 

chance to get a drink of water. And then we're 

going to finish up.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So 

let's come back in ten minutes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Thanks, 

everyone. I'm not coming back.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 2:47 p.m. and resumed at 

3:02 p.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Was that a little 

much? Yes. Chair Emeritus --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Logan, what you've 

waited for, biodegradable biobased mulch film. 

And, Nate, I don't know if you want to do a little 

preamble.

Because just to make sure that people 

understand the difference between what we voted 
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on before, versus what this is, to put it in 

context.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. So, 

it seems just yesterday we were talking about 

biodegradable mulch. And we were. Because it 

was very recent.

So, last fall we passed an annotation 

change where we lowered the biodegradable 

biobased mulch film to have 80 percent 

biodegradable status.

The listing that we're looking at 

today is the 100 percent listing. And so, it's 

sort of in this interesting purgatory, where we 

have passed an amendment to the annotation, and 

now we're considering the whole listing.

And so, what we're voting on today is, 

do we keep biodegradable biobased mulch film on 

the list at all? If we delist biodegradable 

biobased mulch film, it will also get rid of the 

last October, last fall's vote.

So, the whole thing goes away if we 
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delist today. And if we re-list then the 

annotation will change, because we have been in 

communication with the program that they're going 

to work on it after this vote.

So, they wanted to see, is that 

worthwhile if we're going to delist all together. 

And if we re-list and drop to 80 percent, and we 

hopefully see some action, where folks would then 

come up with materials that meet this definition. 

Any questions on that?

I feel like all of our June and July 

was filled with discussions around BBMF. And 

what are we talking about? And what even is 

this? And just wanted to make sure we're set 

before Logan dives in and we think about, Jerry, 

please go ahead.

MEMBER D'AMORE: So, 100 percent's 

not there. Is there an 80 percent we can hold 

in our hand, and wave around, and touch, and feel?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And I will refer 

that to the material lead. There is not. 
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There's not an 80 percent that --

MEMBER PETREY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- we can touch 

in our hand and feel.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you.

MEMBER PETREY: I have spoken with a 

company that had a prototype. But that was it.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So, Logan, 

now that we have the context, the floor is yours.

MEMBER PETREY: Is Asa here?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Asa is here, yes.

MEMBER PETREY: Well, I wish he could 

step in. I wish I could call on him. You know, 

he's done a lot of working to get us there.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No, he's under the 

table right now.

MEMBER PETREY: Oh gracious. Okay. 

All right. Thank you. Okay. Biodegradable 

biobased mulch film is listed at 205601B as a 

herbicide, weed barriers, as applicable mulches.

Biodegradable biobased mulch film as 
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defined at 205.2 must be produced without 

organisms or feed stocks derived from excluded 

methods.

History, it was recommended, or the 

Board put it on 2012. This is a statement from 

that recommendation. It says, NOSB sees the 

approval of these materials as an opportunity to 

reduce pollution substantially without 

sacrificing organic farming principles.

The first several criteria apply to 

those certifiers to the MROs will determine 

allowed products.

So, it was added. And because we are, 

there is a lot of organic farming that has plastic 

culture uses. And as we'll go along we'll get 

into the waste issues of plastic mulches.

And we actually have a couple of 

plastic culture farmers on the Board. So, 

they're going to be able to tell their stories as 

well, and what they think about it. You know, 

their experience, it's really important for this 
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topic.

Okay. So, the use of mulches in 

general is to suppress weeds, conserve water, and 

facilitate production of row crops. Plastic 

mulches are also used to help heat up the soil.

It's been noted that biodegradable 

biobased mulch is not as good as the plastic 

mulches for that, as they're questioning whether, 

you know, it's needed for that.

Paper mulch and natural mulches do not 

provide that. It actually cooled the soil more 

than it would just to be bare ground.

So, we move on to the environmental 

issues. This is I guess the most prevalent part 

of the commenting. And the concerns about BBMF 

have been discussed extensively in prior 

documents, including discussion documents, 

reports, proposals for limitation changes.

The concerns are what, you know, what 

does it break down into. We're dealing with that 

keyword, the macroplastics. But there is also a 
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terrible issue with the plastic mulches that we 

currently use.

And from a lot of commenters there's, 

it's no longer recyclable, and they're having to 

just throw it in the landfill. And it is a huge 

waste stream that we're dealing with.

So, we asked some questions to the 

stakeholders. The first one asking, is there any 

100 percent biodegradable that has come up? Any 

products available? There are none. And likely 

various after, actually none for 80 percent that 

I know of.

We actually had a researcher from 

Washington State University. I think she 

mentioned that 60 percent currently is the 

highest that they have.

Question 2. Mulches are critical to 

organic farming operations. Are those 

operations eager for biodegradable mulches? So, 

that's specifically looking for comments from 

people who are in plasticulture.
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And we got overwhelming yes. It seems 

like everybody that's using plastic in organics 

want some kind of alternative that is more 

environmentally friendly, and that doesn't leave 

the remnants of the plastics that they have.

Number 3. How much does this include 

the remaining efforts that seem to remove the 

standard plastic mulch?

So, we discussed this. And we know 

that it doesn't stay together the entire season. 

And once you try to move the plastic mulch, as 

you're pulling it off the field it gets ripped, 

it gets shredded. And it stays in the ground for 

a very, very long time.

I grew up on a plasticulture farm. 

And I remember plastic just blowing in the yard, 

you know. I mean, it does come off in small 

pieces. And that's very expensive.

Actually, one commenter mentioned 

that it cost, I don't know what California wages 

are. I know they're high. But it was somewhere 
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around $1,000 an acre to have all of those pieces 

removed after a use.

And organic farming, because it does 

rip, and to my knowledge organic farmers are 

pulling it up after every crop. Whereas, a 

conventional farmer will try to get two or three 

crops out of one plastic use.

Organic, to my knowledge again, we've 

got two people on here. But to my knowledge 

they're going to pull it up after every because 

of all the tears and holes, and the weed issues 

that could come through that.

And Question 4. If any producer has 

experienced the trial biodegradable mulch to 

share? That's a tricky one always. Because 

that's going to rely on an organic grower that is 

also conventional, because they're using it. 

They are, or just has some plot area to decide.

And we did have a commenter on these, 

well except for of course for the Washington 

State University presentation that we did 
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receive.

We had somebody that tried it on his 

conventional ground. And his concluding 

statement, so there was no difference between the 

application and the efficacy of the biodegradable 

biobased mulch and the PE mulch.

The biodegradable held without a 

problem. This is important. Because plastic 

needs, it needs to hold to avoid weed growth. At 

the end of the season we saw about 30 to 50 

percent soil exposure.

I don't know the product. I assume 

it was around 60 percent biodegradable. I'm not 

sure which one they were using. But they did see 

that the efficacy of it was comparable as far as 

all the things it provided for the plastic mulch.

So, in our subcommittee we voted in 

favor to delist, because of the environmental 

concerns. And the plastics were a huge topic.

But I want to go on to the comments 

from, the written comments. Just go through a 
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few of those.

So, we had mixed reviews. We actually 

had, to me it seemed like all the farmers that 

used plastic mulches were wanting to have 

biodegradable biobased mulch re-listed for this 

innovation, for it to keep being progressed, and 

keep, for the research to continue.

Because they are in dire need of 

wanting something that would be better for their 

farm.

Let's see. Most, well every comment 

was in opposition to the idea of plastic mulch. 

Even the growers that use it saying they want 

something.

And then of course, the people who 

were opposed to using the biodegradable biobased 

mulch were against the plastic too. And so, 

their recommendation was stating that natural 

mulches be used.

And so, I don't think the natural 

mulches are an alternative to the plastic mulch. 
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And I'll go into a little bit of that, you know, 

discuss that. And I know that that's been asked.

And so natural mulches. And even, 

okay, so even in the CACS PowerPoint that Amy 

had, we had a lot of grower pictures. And one 

caught my eye.

And it was, I think from Liz's farm. 

And it has plastic beds. And in the furrow you 

had natural mulch. And it was not used where the 

plants were. It was used in the furrows to 

probably protect, you know, the weeds. So, to 

block weeds.

So, it is, you know, it can provide 

some of that. But then it showed me that plastic 

beds are used in so many other different reasons. 

The plastic beds hold that bed all season long.

And that's important for irrigation, 

because you're running a drip line, and you need 

to have a packed good bed to get equal watering. 

You also need to maintain a bed for harvesting.

You know, if you trellis, or if you're 
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staking and running lines you don't need things 

to be washed away. They need to be safe. And 

that's like for tomatoes and peppers, and 

cucumbers can be trellised as well, eggplant.

And so, it gives you consistency with 

harvests. And I would imagine, even though 

strawberries aren't trellises, the maintaining a 

bed, and actually a high bed so that they can 

pick a lot faster, and I'm sure Javier can speak 

to that a lot.

And so, the natural mulches are just, 

I don't know how you apply it, you know, on a 

larger scale, by putting out cedar mulch, or 

straw, or, you know, plastic is pulled by a 

tractor or an implement, and laid down, and laid 

out that way.

But also, you have the option I guess 

of living mulches. And we know that runs into 

concern. Andy was talking about that being, you 

know, a huge competitive to the corn crop.

Rolling and crimping is an art, which 
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she knows. And it's, to be able to grow a cover 

crop for four months prior, which a lot of edge 

farmers might not have that opportunity to do 

that, and especially like on a raised bed.

That's actually really, really hard 

to do, to get that to lay down, and to kill it at 

a certain time with the crimp. And making sure 

that you grow it.

And you may have to fertilize that 

crop to be able to get enough biomass to provide 

the weed barrier that you need, or that the mulch 

would, the plastic or the biodegradable biobased 

mulch would provide.

So, there come, I don't, it's not 

looking, some of the growers mentioned who were 

using the plastic said that their recycling 

places were no longer taking it. So, everything 

is going to the landfills now.

So, just one last statement. We are 

dealing with a potential microplastics regarding 

listing the produce. But at least with 
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biodegradable biobased mulch we're limiting the 

macroplastic that we're having to deal with. 

Until we move forward with this we will be dealing 

with both.

So, that is what I have, a lengthy 

sunset. I'm going to open it up for any kind of 

questions or discussions. And I will welcome Liz 

and Javier to talk about their farms, and their 

experience as well.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay, no. Thank 

you, Logan. We really appreciate it. Yes, 

Javier, do you want to go ahead?

MEMBER ZAMORA: Sure. Thanks, Logan. 

It's all really, really good information. And I 

know this is something that has been debating for 

many, many years. And people get really 

emotional.

I will tell you as a grower, and Liz 

could probably, you know, share her experiences 

as well. I tried burlap. I try straw. I even 

tried this 60 percent biodegradable.
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The biodegradable, the material that 

are available right now, they don't really hold 

really well. And we still don't know what the 

residue is after we use them.

And we have a really, this is 

essential, because really cool climate. I think, 

I would assume that it lasts longer, or performs 

better in Watsonville than in Texas or the 

Valley. Because it's hotter and more humid, or 

whatever it is.

I think it's, there's a change that 

needs to happen. It's not here yet. And I'm 

looking for it as a farmer, and as someone that 

wants to feed the soil, not mine the soil, and 

wants to make sure that my kid and my farmers 

around me can have a healthier soil than I took 

it on when I first took the land.

I think we need to look at the 

practical usage of what's available now. And in 

my case whether we use conventional plastics or 

the materials that are available, there's still 
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residues that we're leaving behind.

And unfortunately the plastics are not 

being recycled. We do our very best job to make 

sure that we put them aside. We take them to the 

landfill or the place where they're supposed to 

recycle. But I understand they're not recycling.

So, we almost, as a grower I feel like 

we're hitting a dead end. But we're also, I also 

feel like the community is asking for a change. 

But I don't see the manufacturing making 

something that can accommodate what these prior 

Boards have come up with.

So, there is more work that needs to 

be done. And I'll stop there.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

Javier. Jerry, please go ahead.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Logan, thank you 

very much. It's a great presentation. I can't 

believe all that you took on. You must have been 

out absent on one day.

I have two questions. And I 
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understand that, you know, we're not allowed, or 

we don't deal with pricing. However, I'd like 

to know if at any point there was an indication 

of the cost of the 100 or the 80 percent, vis a 

vis polyethylene. And it doesn't even have to 

be a dollar --

MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Is it a little bit 

more expensive, or a lot? Was it --

MEMBER PETREY: It is. I would say 

it's probably double the cost --

MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay.

MEMBER PETREY: -- currently.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you.

MEMBER PETREY: And that is talking 

about 60 percent. That's not even the 80 

percent. We actually had one commenter on there 

that, I think it was a group or a coalition that 

was stating about their growers and their 

growers' comments to say, we're like to try it. 

But we haven't even looked at it, because for one 
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it's, you know, not allowed. But the price point 

is very high.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you for that. 

My next question is, do we have any idea of the 

ratio of organic mulch users versus conventional? 

In other words, what do we, what's, what are we 

running after here, five percent, three percent, 

seven percent of the mulch usage?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just to clarify, 

Jerry, real quick.

MEMBER PETREY: The total 

plasticulture use? Is that what you're asking?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Please. If there's 

any --

MEMBER PETREY: Or are you asking, I'm 

sorry, go ahead.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No, you go ahead, 

please.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So real quick, 

let me jump in here.

MEMBER PETREY: Yes, okay.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, Logan, 

you're correct. So, Jerry's asking about total 

plasticulture --

MEMBER PETREY: Okay. So --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- what 

percentage does this represent?

MEMBER PETREY: Got you. So, acres, 

I don't know what it is. But I do, and Liz or 

Javier, correct me if I'm wrong. But from what 

I know about organic farmers with plastic use, 

they're going to pull it up every season.

Where a conventional grower will try 

to get away, because they can spray herbicides 

over it. I mean, they can spray. So they're, 

what they do is, they'll put it down for their 

most valuable crop, like a pepper for example.

And they'll use it for that high 

production, that high input. And then they will 

try to get like a squash or something cheaper on 

that plastic, just because it's there, and they 

already have the drip there. So, they're not 
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going to spend the extra cost.

And they'll do that for a couple of 

seasons, and then pull it up once it's just 

completely hole shot, and then there's none left.

So, what I'm implying is that the 

acres might not be comparable. I don't know them 

anyway. But it could be that organics use it 

more frequently within the season. But, Liz, do 

you, is that how you handle it? Or are you --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Go 

ahead --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER PETREY: -- double crop?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: I don't know of a 

person, I don't know those numbers. I can tell 

you that --

MEMBER PETREY: Do you double crop on 

your --

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER PETREY: -- plastics?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.
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MEMBER PETREY: Okay. Yes, okay. 

That's what I was asking. I'm sorry --

(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Every small scale 

producer that I know, you know, that's my size, 

we're all using plastics.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay.

MEMBER D'AMORE: May I continue?

MEMBER PETREY: And even a larger 

grower organic they're going to pull it up --

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Oh, yes.

MEMBER PETREY: -- after the end of 

the season.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes, yes.

MEMBER DIMITRI: And explain why that 

is briefly?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Weeds.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Finish your 

thought though, Jerry.
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MEMBER PETREY: You get holes, right?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Sure thing.

MEMBER PETREY: You're getting holes 

in the plastic during the crop, during the cycle, 

you know. So --

MEMBER DIMITRI: During the season?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Oh, yes.

MEMBER PETREY: And it's blowing. 

Yes.

MEMBER D'AMORE: And thank you for 

that. My only reason for asking those two 

questions is, what is the chance that we'll 

really get some of the big producers of this 

product fired up for the, for what we're looking 

for?

I mean, it strikes me that, and I know 

this is extremely difficult. But doing this 

without somehow herding in the conventional 

pieces I think is going to be a real hard road to 

go.

And if the price is expensive, and we 
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get it to, if it gets to that point, and we're 

going to burden the organic farmer with something 

that is appreciably more than the conventional 

product, I just don't know how that's going to 

play out. That, you know --

MEMBER PETREY: So, the hope is that, 

also that you're not picking up fragments of 

plastic. And so, there would be some labor costs 

that are offset to that, to that initial cost.

And whether manufacturers will devote 

just for the organic industry, we see that 

happening in fertilizers, and chemicals, and all, 

and you know, pesticides, things like that, that 

are catered to the organic industry.

So, I think we are large enough to be 

able to, you know, to provide some enthusiasm for 

that. But will a grower, Liz, would you swap if 

it were double, if you didn't have to go and pick 

and up at the end of the season?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: What did, what are 

you --
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If it was double 

the cost would you do it just so you don't have 

to rip it up at the end of the season? Would you 

use this biodegradable mulch?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: I would use 

biodegradable mulch in an instant if I could.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Even if it's 

double the cost?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Absolutely.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Javier, 

please go ahead.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Logan, I want to go 

back to, because you were trying to get an answer 

from Liz. And how do you guys do it? I'll, if 

I may, most --

MEMBER PETREY: Please.

MEMBER ZAMORA: -- plastic users or 

growers that would use plastic for strawberries, 

raspberries, tomatoes, or whatever it is, really, 

really high percentage of us would use it for one 

year, and gets removed.
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And there's some other organic growers 

that, in my case I probably keep ten percent for 

a second year. And this is plastic.

So, obviously whether it's 

biodegradable or conventional plastic, you will 

have remnants of the plastic there, regardless of 

how good of a job you do.

In the organic community it's well 

known that for weed control sometimes you come in 

and burn before your carrots germinate, to 

control the weeds.

When you do that you're actually 

burning the remnants of plastic there too. And 

rarely people talk about that. And I'm not 

talking about your back burn. I'm talking about 

the pyro, you know, UFO look like on a big --

MEMBER PETREY: Yes. I know what 

you're talking about, yes.

MEMBER ZAMORA: -- tool. Or sorry, 

on a large tractor. So, we have to look at those 

things and talk about it, so we can make a smart 
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decision on what we're dealing with here, versus 

just the heart. I hope that answered your 

question, or tried.

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other thoughts? 

Brian, please go ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. I have so 

many thoughts on this I can't marshal them all. 

But this is really one of the most difficult 

decisions for me that I've encountered so far on 

the Board.

Because I'm going to switch my vote 

from last year. I was very optimistic last year, 

and felt that an 80 percent biobased product that 

would, as we were given to understand, at least 

the way I understood it, would essentially be 100 

percent biodegradable over a reasonable amount of 

time, that that was a real solution to the, our 

super plastic problems that we've been talking 

about here with conventional polyethylene mulch.

And I was really excited for organic 
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to lead the way on that. But I'm really, I've 

changed my mind, partially due to some of the 

reading that was, accompanied our written 

comments from the spring meeting, and for the 

fall meeting.

That it seems to me that the studies 

that have been done to verify that these products 

would fully biodegrade, that research was really 

weak to me.

And in particular when one of the 

researchers said that they were using visual 

collection of fragments to decide whether, you 

know, what, the percentage that had been 

degraded.

There's a lot of these materials that 

you would not be able to see, that would still be 

there, and that wouldn't be counted with a visual 

kind of count, so, even if you did it with a 

microscope, which I assume they do. So that, 

that really, you know, kind of weakened my image 

of this great solution.
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And the other thing that happened 

recently was that the whole PFAS issue came up. 

And that was an example of a very wise decision 

that was made in, what, 2002 or somewhere in 

there, of not allowing sewage floods, products of 

any kind to be used in organic farming.

And at that point I was convinced that 

sewage floods was also an important way to 

connect the cycle, complete the cycle of 

nutrients, which I still think it is. But I 

don't think we're there, for organic farming.

But it was not allowed. And sure 

enough, it turns out that our brother and sister 

farmers in Maine are having real serious issues 

with PFAS residues, forever chemical residues 

from previous applications of sewage floods that 

was thought to be okay by everybody, you know, 

certainly the Government regulators that were in 

charge of it.

So anyways, to make a long story 

short, I'm going to change my mind about this. 
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And I'm really hoping that manufacturers will 

petition for products in the future that we will 

be confident will be 100 percent biodegradable.

And I'm not sure that the percentage 

of biobased materials is critical, is such an 

important component as we've been thinking as 

long as it's really biodegradable.

I think some synthetics are probably 

not that bad in the product. Again, as long as 

it was all the way to water and CO2. That's what 

I'm talking about when I say 100 percent 

biodegradable.

So, to make a long story a little bit 

shorter, that's, those are the reasons that I'm 

changing my mind. And I'm really disappointed. 

Because I was very hopeful for this. And I guess 

that's about it.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Any other 

questions or comments? Amy?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes, Amy, go 

ahead.
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MEMBER BRUCH: Sure. Liz, did you 

want to jump in first?

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Okay. Well, I think 

you should start, and then I'll finish actually, 

since you've used this.

MEMBER PETREY: Let Liz finish. 

She'll do the passion.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes, yes. Because I 

do want to hear what you have to say before I 

comment, if possible.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: I think that the 

theory behind biodegradable mulch is the ideal 

optimism that organic farming is about.

Most growers that I know would be 

thrilled if we had an awesome biodegradable mulch 

that we could use and that would get plastics out 

of our lives.

And I'm a realist. I totally 

understand that it takes a long time to develop 

this kind of product. And if we don't give as 

much incentive and as much motivation to 
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industries to develop these products, they need 

a push. They need a shove in my opinion.

And I want this product to be 

available. And I want to do as much pushing as 

I can to have them develop it.

And I feel like if we take it off we're 

going to make their lives even less incentivized 

to keep fighting to try to come up with something 

that we could use. And I want them to have a lot 

of incentive.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy, go ahead. 

And then Wood, and then Jerry.

MEMBER BRUCH: I think you're a better 

closer, Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: No, no. I don't want 

to be a closer. I want you to go.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're not quite 

done. So, this is good, folks. Don't worry 

about closing quite yet.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay.

MEMBER TURNER: So, I totally 
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appreciate what Liz is saying about the shove. 

But I guess like others should be talked about 

I'm very concerned and confused about what our 

shove looks like, and what it takes for us to do 

the shove.

Is it a imperfect aspirational 

listing? Or is it saying something louder to the 

community to say, show me what you got when you 

got it ready?

By not having something that's as 

messy as I think what we, with all due respect to 

my, all of us who were on the committee at the 

time, you know, it's a, I certainly have second 

thoughts about what we did.

And I think I've come to the 

conclusion that, you know, for the moment I'm, I 

think we've gotten ourselves into the situation 

where we got to, it's almost a, it's an absurd 

choice on some level.

Is it plastic that we can see, and see 

the problem? And just say, gosh, we got to get 
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all that PE out of the field. We got to figure 

out how to get those pieces up. Or is it plastic 

that we can't see?

And I think I, I think it's sort of 

like the way I feel about offshore wind, the way 

I feel about smokestacks. If we want to power 

our society with coal, you should be able to see 

it. You should have it right in the middle of 

town.

You should have it sitting right there 

polluting every community and town. And if you 

don't, and you really were wondering sort of what 

the alternative looks like, don't be opposed to 

offshore wind.

Don't be, because it, because we need 

to see the infrastructure. We need to see the 

problem. And I feel that way about this plastic. 

I want to see the PE in the field, and feel the 

pressure that we put on ourselves to pick it up.

Five percent of plastics in this 

country are recycled. We should be embarrassed 
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about that. And I don't, I want to, I know we're 

going to talk about that tomorrow. But I just, 

I can't, I don't want to hide it.

I don't want it to be hidden in the 

soil, the plastic that I'm concerned about. So, 

I'm, if we're, if we have pieces of plastic not, 

that hasn't biodegraded in the soil, it's, I'd 

rather be able to see the big pieces of plastic 

that we need to pick up than have it buried in 

the soil somewhere.

So, I don't know if that makes any 

sense to anybody. But that's sort of the, it's 

a very rambling statement. So, it's probably 

better for you to close, Amy. That's, I mean, 

honestly, like, I just --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I just feel 

that's been a hole in these things, Wood. All 

right. let's have a few more people. So, Amy, 

if you want to go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: I will. And hopefully 

there's other so I am not closing. Okay, maybe.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: There will be.

MEMBER BRUCH: Great. Okay. Yes, 

this is a tough issue. I sympathize with fellow 

farmers that are using this, and have the desire 

to have something better.

I think we can probably all share that 

common goal, that we want something better than 

what the current status is.

In my mind it's hard to reconcile 

though wish lists and want, because this doesn't 

exist. And then are we making things on our wish 

list become this biodegradable mulch?

Because I just don't know if we're 

reconciling reality just because we don't have a 

product. This is, this doesn't exist. And it's 

tough to analyze it.

It's unique. Usually when we have a 

product on the list it's something we can see. 

A petitioner has the burden of, you know, proof 

in the research and all the information for us to 

review to support this.
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Right now research is very limited. 

Subsequent use of this product, you know, outside 

of maybe two, three, four years, we just don't 

have that information.

So, I'd like something better than the 

current moment too. But my push would be, let's 

get out of the box of thinking. Let's have a 

better type of plastic.

I just think innovation really needs 

to be more than replacing plastic with plastic. 

I think that's going to be a hard ask. But this 

has been on the list a long time. And we just 

haven't seen too much movement unfortunately.

So, taking it off the list I don't 

think will stifle too much innovation from that 

aspect or regard.

I thought it was interesting, one of 

the research commenters that we had made the 

comment, biobased content does not correlate with 

the degradation.

So, I know we all want degradation to 
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happen. But we also need this to be a natural 

substance too, and not putting more plastic into 

the soil.

And then there was a comment about the 

prediction rate of degradation in Washington, 

which has a Mediterranean climate. So, it said 

it would take, prediction wise, 21 to 58 months. 

And that's at a 90 percent degradation rate.

And we're, I just, you know, I just 

don't know if we're there. This has to degrade 

in all sorts of climates. There's a lot that 

we're requesting here with this listing. And 

it's difficult in my opinion to analyze.

And I think, I mean, just process 

oriented and process driven, I think we need to 

return back to our basics and delist this, and 

have a petitioner have to onus to provide that 

data that we need to evaluate this, so we're 

evaluating something real, than evaluating 

something abstract.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Next we're going 
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to go to Jerry. Did you still want to go, Jerry?

MEMBER D'AMORE: You did do the 

appropriate close in my mind. I think we need 

to turn this thing on its head. And I think we 

need disruptive innovation. And I think that 

what we're doing right now actually stifles what 

would end up being good stuff.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla's next.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Thanks, yes. 

Very interesting conversation. I wanted to do 

two points.

There's been lots of talk about this 

like product that is theoretical, and doesn't 

exist. However, when the petition was originally 

submitted the petition, there was a product that 

met the definitions that are in 205.2 of 

biodegradable biobased plastic mulch.

So, at some point in time in the 

deliberation with the Board, and then 

subsequently the NOP published a memo that, and 

during that time it was like, it, you know, in 
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the definition it just says biobased. It doesn't 

say anything about a percentage.

And so, there were products on the 

market that met that. But, so then the NOP 

clarified in a memo, 100 percent biobased. And 

so then, those mulch films that were petitioned, 

that we had in our hands, were not allowed to be 

used.

So, I just wanted to sort of take us 

back for a minute. Because there were products. 

And, but then, you know, sort of, that fell apart.

The other thing that I was going to 

talk about was, is the, is process. So we, as 

Nate said at the start of the conversation, we 

voted last fall to have this annotation change. 

And we haven't seen that through.

And so, I feel like we came up with 

this sort of regulatory solution to try to have 

companies innovate and get a product now with 

this new definition, right, that could be viable 

and usable.
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And we're now not seeing that through. 

We're just like, forget about that. It like sort 

of negates our previous work. And that feels 

really uncomfortable to me.

And so, I am a proponent of, you know, 

let's sort of work our process, work it through. 

And then, you know, we sort of have put everybody 

on notice.

And if there is still enough 

innovation then we have an opportunity to make a 

different choice at the next sunset. But it 

feels premature to me to not work our process. 

Thanks.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Going to 

go to Mindee, Dilip, Allison, then Amy.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: I mean, this is 

just painful for me all the way around. I 

definitely see myself as a fundamentalist in the 

biological and cultural methods, and compost and 

mulch in the general ethos of who I am and what 

I want for organic.
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And while I've been doing policy work 

I've really challenged myself to be a practical 

compromiser. And in this situation it just hurts 

my feelings to think about what we don't know 

about the impact to the soil.

And for me that's where I think in 

this situation I'm probably going to vote more 

with my heart and with my ususal philosophical 

underpinnings than how much respect for the work 

that everybody's doing on this issue, and how it, 

what the impact might be.

And I think if there wasn't the 

possibility for petitioning something that was 

real in the future, then maybe I could get swayed 

off my biological and cultural roots in this 

situation.

But right now I just, I love my 

compost piles. And every time I pull a sticker 

out of them I'm, you know, that hurts my feelings 

that they're in there. So, in this case with 

this method I think I'm going to stick to my 
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heart.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, Nate. 

Logan, first and let me thank you putting 

together this beautiful review. Very in depth, 

and very good analysis.

You mentioned Washington State 

University. And that OEA project was also in 

collaboration with the UT and some other 

universities. And I'm going to read one of the 

paragraph of the findings about that. Not the 

big one.

But personally I, my research firm 

I've been using and doing a lot of research and 

education on using different types of mulches, 

whether it's the plastic and whatnot, with straw 

and all that. I will not go into the details, 

and I'll just stick to the point.

But the plastic mulch is, like a lot 

of farmers they have experience that when they 
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removed on the organic farm, I mean, when we 

harvest our crop.

And then we, there's a requirement and 

we remove the plastic mulch. And we still see 

the pieces there. And that's, of course, I agree 

with them.

Going back to now the findings of this 

limited research on the BB, biodegradable mulch. 

This project, they have done it. And I agree 

with lot of the comments here that there is not 

much research.

And the findings have been done on 

this topic. But there's limited information 

available. And I would like to just read a few 

lines. It won't take long.

Just for the understanding that this 

biobased does not entail biodegradability, nor 

does it imply that fossil based materials are not 

biodegradable.

It is then essential to understand 

that biodegradability is an inherent property of 
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a material that is independent of its feed stock 

source, but depends on the molecular structure of 

its polymeric constituents and their ability to 

be utilized by microorganisms.

So, the biobased materials, what they 

contend is the carbon atoms derived wholly or 

partially from renewable feed stock. And based 

on this definition some, but certainly not all 

mediums are biobased.

And finally, as they allow that 

currently 100 percent biobased mulches they are 

not available. However, double of soil 

biodegradable plastic mulch entirely from 

biobased sources remains a continue endeavor.

And this is my two cents. Thank you, 

Chair. Sorry. So, the conclusion of that 

finding kind of is that currently 100 percent 

biodegradable mulch is not available.

However to double up the soil 

biodegradable plastic mulch entirely from 

biobased sources remains a continue endeavor.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Continued 

endeavor, yes. Absolutely.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison, please 

go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. I'm 

really struggling with this one too. And I feel 

like I have an advantage and disadvantage of the, 

a newcomer, not having been through the journey 

that you all have been to.

But looking back on it now.

And I really appreciate, Brian, your 

point about PFAS as sort of other materials we've 

encountered over time that seem safe, and then 20 

years later we have a huge contamination problem. 

So, I'm weighing that on one side.

And then, Liz, I also really 

appreciate your point about needing incentive, 

every incentive we can have out there to move us 

away from plastic.

I think where I'm coming down is 
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thinking about there being a 60/40 product that 

exists as in Chiles isn't meeting the mark.

And imaging that next year there's a 

73 percent product that works pretty well, has 

good evidence that it biodegrades. And we've 

boxed ourselves in with an annotation, imaging 

what the product could be, but without a specific 

example to look at.

So, I'm hoping that if we take this 

off the list now that we're sending still with 

our discussion and the history on this issue a 

very clear message that if someone brings us a 

product that improves over plastic we're going to 

be really excited to move it forward. And we'll 

make that a priority.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

Allison. Okay. Amy, go ahead. Okay. Go 

ahead. Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Logan, actually I'm 

going to ask this question back to you as a person 

who's done a lot more thorough evaluation of the 
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comments, and as the lead on this.

Can you remind me, how many people in 

the farming community have asked or support 

removing this?

MEMBER PETREY: Sure. Thank you for 

asking. So, I have 12 listed comments. And on 

the 12th one is where I have 70. Because it was 

a repeated comment, not from farmers, of how we 

should be using natural, the natural mulches 

instead. And that's what is organics. And so, 

I do have them listed. And it is, one, seven of 

the 11 are in support.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Logan.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Amy, 

please go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. And, Logan, 

thank you so much for your work with this. This 

is a difficult topic. And you embraced it after 

Asa left us. So, you're doing a fantastic job 

of just communicating the big picture with this, 

and all the details. So, thank you.
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Good discussion. Allison, I really 

appreciated your comment too, from a legal 

perspective. I thought that was really 

interesting.

I just want to make one comment in 

relation to my table partner here, Kyla. You did 

mention about, you know, this is interesting. 

Since we already voted on this in one way, shape, 

or form last year I just wanted to make note for 

the Board and for the new people, we did vote on 

this.

It narrowly passed there. And it does 

sound like there's a few vote changes that we 

just learned about that maybe would have thought 

about things different.

So, new information's come into play. 

I agree about following the process. But I think 

there's two processes we're kind of looking at. 

How do we normally approach national list items? 

And what did we do last meeting?

So, we kind of need a way, the pros 
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and cons about those two items. But I believe 

the vote last year narrowly passed.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes, okay. So, 

response back. So I think it is important for 

us to think about this. Because we may have a 

lot more work to be done with annotation changes, 

right.

Like, there's this idea about like the 

national list being imperfect, and wanting to 

sort of clean that up. There's lots of ideas out 

there with annotations.

And we have a sunset process. And so, 

it's, we're going to have this, these dual tracks 

like all the time if we go forth with that work 

to change annotations.

And so, for me, I'm like, I have to 

trust the process. I have to trust that we're 

going to do that work of looking at an annotation.

And because the rulemaking process is 
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sometimes slower than might all like, that things 

might come up for sunset while we're in this herky 

jerkiness of the annotation change.

And so, I just want to sort of set the 

stage that we're going to probably be having more 

of these conversations with listings if we're 

going to undertake cleaning up the list and 

looking at annotations.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

comments, questions?

MEMBER PETREY: I do have one after, 

to kind of group things in. But, okay. Okay. 

So, I do want to hit on a couple of things. Thank 

you, Kyla for that.

And I do feel like, okay, so in the 

previous sunset for this it was zero take it off 

to ten to leave it on. So, you know, the 100 

percent people were excited about.

I do feel like this is a knee jerk 

reaction to the fall, and to block, you know, a 

previous ruling. And if we do, and there is the 
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option obviously to take it off and for a petition 

to come forward.

So, we take it off. And then that 

gets rid of the 80 percent. Now there is no 

limit to what, you know, on the list. And so, 

if we get a petition for 70 percent, or even, you 

know, that Allison mentioned, or something less.

Or just say something comes up, then 

we could be looking at something that's actually 

less biodegradable than what we have in the 80 

percent, if that hits the market first, and 

somebody puts a petition forward for that. So, 

we could be looking at something coming on the 

list that is less than 80 percent.

And so, the, okay. You got it, Rick. 

So, the degradable part of it, yes. Okay. So 

then you're looking at the visual and the non 

visual. And I think it is not fair to say that 

every bit of the plastic mulch that is left is 

visible.

And I don't think that it's fair to 
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say that there aren't some invisible really small 

parts left. And so, what you actually see behind 

a plastic field left behind is not all of it.

And so, that is something that I 

wanted to mention that, you know, we have this 

idea that 100 percent of what's left behind, the 

plastic we can see, and we can go pick up.

I don't think that that's true. I 

think that it has probably, could be just as much 

left in the soil that's invisible, or tiny that 

we cannot see as the other biodegradable mulches. 

Anyway, so okay. I hear you all are ready to 

wrap it up.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No, Logan.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: A hot mic moment 

that was not actually in reference to you, Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: You got me there.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No, Logan, that 

was my fault. I just wanted to check in.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay. It is getting 

dark here.
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(Simultaneous speaking)

MEMBER PETREY: And really, those 

were the three points.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: That's why we put 

this on at the end. It's all good. Real quick, 

Brian, and then Rick.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes. I'm sorry to 

belabor the discussion here. But just a quick 

point about biobased. I think biobased has been 

a little bit of a red herring in our discussion 

here.

Because in our brains biobased kind of 

translates to biodegradable. But our 

researchers have said no. And what we have to 

think about is that what biobased means is, for 

instance, that sugars from a corn plant are the 

carbon source that, using a hypothetical.

It's probably not really sugars. But 

something like sugars from a corn plant are the 

raw ingredient that is highly synthesized to make 

a plastic polymer mulch, okay.
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So in other words, the biobased part 

of it is not, it's not any kind of like, you know, 

plant like substance in the final product at all. 

It's all just an input that then goes through an 

industrial process and is synthesized into 

plastic.

And so it's very important from the 

standpoint of trying to reduce reliance on fossil 

fuels, okay, you know, to substitute a plant 

source from a fossil fuel source.

But it is not, we shouldn't think of 

it as being related at all to how biodegradable 

the final product is. So, I just wanted to put 

that out there.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Dilip, go 

ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: A very quick 

response to Brian, what's said. And I'm giving 

official definition for the term biobased. 

Materials that contain a renewable plant, marine 

and forestry based resources not derived from 
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petroleum. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Rick, go ahead.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. Anyone 

else? Can I --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla has one more 

after.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes. Well, I was 

going to echo what Kyla said. We spent an awful 

lot of work on the other thing. And I, maybe we 

did it wrong. But we went through the process.

And I'm afraid, I won't be on the 

Board, but we might not want to pick up other 

things in the future, because something else is 

coming that might change our views.

So, you know, wasted a lot of time. 

And maybe it's a good thing to re-look at it. 

But somehow I'm afraid for the process.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

thoughts?

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Jerry? No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions?
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: Should I --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, I'm sorry, 

Kyla. I forgot. Kyla, please go ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Oh, yes. Sorry. I 

just, in our walk down history lane I was just 

wanting to make sure I was clear on what I said 

before.

And so, that the petition was for 

biodegradable, made from bioplastics. But then 

the proposal that was released from NOSB included 

the term biobased.

So, anyway, I just wanted, and I think 

I said that there was a product. There was like 

four. So, just to be, just to correct the 

record.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So, I'll go 

ahead and read the motion.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please. The 

motion, just for everyone. We're going to take 

this vote slow. So, I'm going to call on you, 

and then you're going to vote. So, just --
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. A slow 

vote. Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Slow vote.

MEMBER SMITH: I have to go between

the yeses and the nos. And it is hard for me to 

switch between Y and N. Thank you.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. That's 

good. And again, thanks, Logan. So, the motion 

to remove biodegradable biobased mulch film, BBMF 

from the national list. The motion was made by 

Logan. I seconded it. It left committee with 

four yeses, two nos, one abstain, and one absent. 

So, start the voting.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

just to take a moment, Kyla, would you remind us 

that we are with a no vote voting to keep this 

listed, correct?

MEMBER SMITH: Correct.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we are going 

to start the voting. And remember, do not vote 

until I call you, please. We're going to start 
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they voting with Carolyn.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Javier.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Rick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Mindee.
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VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Don't get ahead 

of me now. I'm taking the moment in.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Yes. 

I just about, just taking a moment here.

MEMBER DIMITRI: I bet Steve feels 

your pain right around now.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I hate to throw a 

real wrench into this. But just for a little 

context, I want everyone in the room to think 

about, when we think about aspirations, this is 

really an aspirational discussion.

Are we going in the direction, and 

moving towards a product and a vision for how we 
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execute this sort of agriculture? And I think 

because we don't have a product, and we are trying 

to move the needle in big ways, that the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Nine yes, six no, zero 

abstentions, recusals, or absent. The motion 

fails.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: To everyone on my 

team, this is the hard stuff. And I am so 

grateful for all of you, to be able to ideate 

together, and envision this world.

And I used to like voting last. And 

that just sucked. So, all right. Looking to 

our agenda.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: So, that's it for 

crops. And I just wanted to tell Logan, you have 

my permission to go have your baby now.

MEMBER SMITH: No, no, no. Not until 

after like 9:15 a.m. tomorrow morning. Then you 

can have your baby.

MEMBER PETREY: That's right. My 
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time. You're off my time.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Good job, Logan.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes. Thank you, 

Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you all. That 

was fun. And I appreciate all the discussion, 

and the care, and everything. So, thank you all.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We're 

going to recess until tomorrow, folks. Thanks 

very much.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 4:04 p.m.)
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

AGRICULTURAL MARKETING SERVICE

+ + + + +

NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + +

FALL 2022 MEETING

+ + + + +

THURSDAY

OCTOBER 27, 2022

+ + + + +

The Board met at the Holiday Inn 

Sacramento Downtown - Arena, 300 J Street, 

Sacramento, California, at 9:00 a.m. PDT, 

Nathaniel Powell-Palm, Chair, presiding.

BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT

NATE POWELL-PALM, Chair

MINDEE JEFFERY, Vice Chair

KYLA SMITH, Secretary

AMY BRUCH

BRIAN CALDWELL

CAROLYN DIMITRI

GERARD D'AMORE

LIZ GRAZNAK

RICK GREENWOOD

KIMBERLY HUSEMAN

ALLISON JOHNSON

DILIP NANDWANI

LOGAN PETREY

WOOD TURNER

JAVIER ZAMORA
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NOP STAFF PRESENT

MICHELLE ARSENAULT, Advisory Board Specialist

JARED CLARK, National List Manager

ADAM DIAMOND, Ph.D., Agricultural Economist

VALERIA FRANCES, Standards Division

DAVID GLASGOW, NOP Associate Deputy

Administrator

FRANK HALPRIN, Ph.D., Management and Program

Analyst

ERIN HEALY, Director, Standards Division

ANDREA HOLM, Materials Specialist

DEVON PATTILLO, Agricultural Marketing

Specialist

JENNIFER TUCKER, PhD, NOP Deputy Administrator

PENNY ZUCK, Organic Policy Advisor

FORMER NOSB MEMBERS EDUCATIONAL PANEL

ASA BRADMAN

JESSE BUIE

STEVE ELA

SCOTT RICE
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CONTENTS

Handling Subcommittee (HS)

Proposal: Peroxylactic acid (APoLA@)

- petitioned............................ 12

Proposal: Phosphoric acid - amend annotation

- petitioned............................ 25

Proposal: Ion exchange filtration -

Recharge Materials...................... 28

Discussion Document: Ion exchange filtration

- Resins................................ 30

2024 Handling Sunset Reviews:

Attapulgite .................................. 47

Bentonite .................................... 50

Diatomaceous earth ........................... 60

Magnesium chloride ........................... 63

Nitrogen ..................................... 65

Sodium carbonate ............................. 67

Acidified sodium chlorite .................... 71

Carbon dioxide ............................... 74

Sodium phosphates ............................ 76

Casings ...................................... 80

Pectin ....................................... 88

Potassium acid tartrate ...................... 92

NOSB Officer Elections ...................... 154

NOSB work agendas/Materials update .......... 177

Recognition of outgoing member .............. 181

Other business and closing remarks .......... 187
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

(9:03 a.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So just a little 

run over the itinerary. We're going to start 

with a question about the transition program to 

Jenny real quick, and then we're going to jump 

into Handling. We're going to take a break. 

We're going to finish up Handling, and then it's 

lunchtime. After lunch, we get to finish up 

unfinished business.

So unless something exciting happens, 

we probably won't have any deferred votes. So 

we're going to have an opportunity to talk about 

meeting timing, and that's been a question we've 

heard several times on public comments. We're 

then going to be able to chat about plastics.

Now I want everyone on the Board and 

in the audience to remember, we don't have a work 

agenda item. So I would be really stoked if we 

ideated on what, given that we've all read OFPA, 

what we could do with plastics. And we're going 
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to set a timer because that could go on forever, 

and we're not going to let it go on forever.

Then we're going to have elections for 

officers for this next year, and we'll go to our 

NOSB update. After that, we're going to have our 

four members who didn't get to have an in-person 

last meeting join us for a Board Q&A and try to 

quickly get all of their wisdom downloaded to the 

current Board, and also recognize them for their 

exceptional service.

All right. Well, let's get going. 

Allison, did you want to start with your question 

for Jenny?

MEMBER JOHNSON: Sure. Thank you, 

Nate. Jenny, I so appreciated your presentation 

on the transition program and all the work that 

you've done to pull this together on a kind of a 

lightning-fast timeline. It's really 

unprecedented and exciting, and I've been 

enjoying the time outside the meeting to chat 

with folks who are starting to form this regional 
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web that will roll out the program.

But I'm still a little bit fuzzy on 

the details of how it's going to work, so I was 

hoping you could say more about the structure of 

the regions, who point people are, if people are 

interested in being involved and just a little 

bit more detail about how the regional 

partnerships will work for the top program.

DR. TUCKER: Yeah. Happy to, and 

appreciate the question. So, first, I just want 

to say good morning to everyone. Day 3 is always 

you know who the diehards are who come back for 

Day 3. So thank you for being here. Yay Day 3 

people.

Okay. So a bit more logistics about 

how the agreements will work for the top 

partnerships. There are six regions that -- and 

we showed the map of that. We were really 

emphasizing the partnership network nature of 

this.

In practicality, the way that works is 
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USDA can't possibly have arrangements with 

everybody. Just -- it's not workable. And so 

we have selected one lead in each region who will 

hold the agreement with USDA. So it's a 

cooperative agreement where we literally 

cooperate with the lead partner. And then we, 

at NOP and the lead partner work very, very 

collaboratively together to figure out who will 

be all of the folks within the region.

Those folks will then -- many of them 

will have sub-agreements under the master 

agreement that the lead partner has with USDA. 

So those sub-agreements will be a next step after 

we get the agreements in place with USDA, which 

-- USDA and the lead partner. And those are 

working their way through the process.

This is a 5-year program. We don't 

know what we don't know yet. And so some of 

those partnerships may end up being they'll start 

with one-year agreements or see how it goes, and 

then build on from there. We're holding some 
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money back for the underserved groups that we 

don't know about yet.

There's some partners who say I don't 

need any money, I just want to be involved. And 

so they won't need to have agreements, they'll 

just be involved for no money which is always 

great.

And so that will be the next phase of 

this is those partnership networks, there are 

five different areas, the statement of work, 

technical assistance, mentorship programs, 

community building, workforce planning, and data 

and reporting, those need to be covered in each 

state in each region. So that's a lot of 

partners to coordinate. And the leads and USDA 

will work very closely together to kind of -- and 

with the partners themselves to figure out who is 

best suited for which activities in which area.

So the six leads are, just for folks 

who haven't seen that level of detail yet, 

working from east to west -- and if you want a 
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little hint on this, if you forget or don't --

you lose the little piece of paper or napkin you 

write this down on, if you go to the map that I 

put up at the beginning of the presentations, 

it's the logo right under the name of the region. 

So the lead is the logo right under the name of 

the region.

So working from east to west, the lead 

was identified as the largest, nonprofit 

certifier affiliated organization in the region. 

Okay? So cooperative agreements are with 

nonprofits generally. And so we picked the 

nonprofit that's affiliated with a certifier that 

had the most certified operations in the region.

So it was an objective process. Often 

these types of things are competitive agreements 

where you put out a call for a proposal and you 

get all sorts of responses. That's what we tend 

to do in NOP.

Because this is a nationwide 

initiative and we wanted to have more control 
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during the process, that's why we chose to do the 

directed award. It gives us a lot more freedom 

over the course of time because if we had done 

the call for proposals, we might have missed an 

entire region because no one submitted a proposal 

for that region. So that's why we did the 

directed awards to the six organizations.

We did want to be very fair and 

objective about it, so that's why we picked the 

largest, nonprofit, certifier-affiliated 

organization in the region because, ultimately, 

a lot of the mentors and a lot of the technical 

expertise resides in those organizations that 

already have those kinds of capabilities stood 

up.

So working from east to west, drumroll 

please. Okay. The mid-Atlantic northeast is 

PCO, Pennsylvania Certified Organic. They have 

the most certified operation of all the nonprofit 

certifiers in that area, and already have strong 

partnerships with the folks up in New England, 
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and have already talked to, for example, all the 

-- oh, there. Wow. Yay. Thank you. I was 

going to ask for that, and then I thought, no, 

that's too much to ask for, I'm not going to ask 

for that. Thank you. So we got PCO, visual aids 

are always helpful.

Moving to the southeast, Florida 

Organic Growers. They are very tightly 

affiliated with the Certifier QCs, and they are 

a nonprofit. So that's how they were picked for 

the southeast. In the Midwest, it's MOSA. So 

MOSA has the largest number of certified 

operations, and a nonprofit structure there.

The plains are OCIA. OCIA has the 

largest account of certified operations. 

They're a nonprofit. In the southwest, 

west/southwest it is CCOF Foundation. So the 

CCOF Foundation is the largest certifieraffiliated nonprofit. And then up in the 

northwest it's Oregon Tilth. And so many of 

those folks are in the room -- have 
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representatives in the room if you want to say 

hello to them. So Oregon Tilth is up in the 

northwest. So, again, by acronym it's PCO, FOG, 

MOSA, OCIA, CCOF, and OTCO, so. Did that answer 

the questions?

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yeah. That's great. 

I really appreciate the additional detail. 

Thanks so much.

DR. TUCKER: That might have been 

more than you actually wanted.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No, that's perfect.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Jenny. 

All right. So first subcommittee we're going to 

get kicked off with Handling, and I'll take a 

beat. Go ahead, Kyla. But I'll hand it off to 

Kyla Smith, chair of Handling.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Good morning, 

everybody. Bring my mic a little closer. Okay. 

So as most of the subcommittee chairs have 

stated, I, too, agree that we had a great 

semester. We had a great crew. In the Handling 
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Subcommittee, we had several new members joining 

the team, and we packed -- and we had a packed 

work agenda item or work agenda this semester 

with a couple of petitions, a dozen sunsets, and 

everyone's favorite topic, ion exchange.

And I also am very grateful that Logan 

is still here. Hi, Logan. And with us today. 

And that the tech gods have blessed us this entire 

week. Logan's going to be kicking us off with 

peroxylactic acid. We'll just say POLA. And 

so, Logan, I turn it over to you.

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you. Thanks 

for opening up with the word, I'm going to say 

POLA from now on so we know what we're talking 

about. But, otherwise, I'll get held up. Okay. 

Great. So, yes, we received this petition. It's 

for a sanitizer. And so POLA, it was petitioned 

by the Z Company as an anti-microbial processing 

aid for application onto the meat and poultry 

carcasses, parts, trims, or in organs to get to 

the national list at 205.605(b).
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It's a synthetic product, and it's in 

an aqueous mixture for the use in process water, 

ice, or brine used for production processing. So 

it's not just to clean the surfaces, it's 

actually in the water flush, the water stream.

So the subcommittee, we reviewed POLA 

petition and the technical review, and discussed 

the issues that are characteristic to most 

sanitizers and to microbials. The subcommittee 

was hesitant to add another synthetic to the 

list. However, you know, we have -- excuse me -

- and just handling all the chlorine items and 

everything else, we are open to the idea that 

maybe there are some better fits out there. And 

so we were really relying on a lot of our -- to 

fill in those gaps and the needs from our 

stakeholders and the public comments.

We also, you know, in Handling last 

fall, we were going over CPC, and that seemed to 

be quite controversial. We had a lot of 

responses on CPC. And a lot of negativity, it 
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was really easy to kind of put that one down and 

move on. This one -- POLA is inherently low 

risk, breaks down into lactic acid and carbon 

dioxide. It's compared often to peracetic acid 

which, again, is probably safe for -- it is safe 

for handling, and it does breakdown quickly so 

you don't have any residues on the carcasses.

But again-- -- so I went to the 

commenters and we asked, we had some questions, 

specific questions. And those were, "Are 

pathogens populations getting harder to control 

in meat and poultry processing facilities?"

So we had one answer, yes, there are 

some struggles. We had a couple commenters say, 

no, we're not having any problems, everything's 

okay. What we have in our toolbox is fine. But 

there weren't any specifics, and there weren't 

any like specific requests, and especially not 

for this product.

The second question, the petition 

compares POLA to PAA, peracetic acid. "Is 
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peracetic acid the dominant material used in the 

facility?" So because there was a lot of 

comparisons, we were just trying to see because 

POLA is actually less volatile as PAA and could 

be a safer product to use for the employees. And 

so we were curious if that would, you know, fit 

in in place of PAA.

Didn't get any responses there. 

"Have chemical rotations aided in pathogen 

resistance management?" Didn't get any 

specifics just from the comments to say that what 

we have is working. And we also were trying to, 

you know, ask that question to try and not remind 

people to use -- or maybe to remind people that 

we are supposed to be looking at this as an IPM 

(phonetic), even in the processing plant, not 

just in the field, we're willing, you know, just 

to break any kind of resistant strains or 

anything that you're -- you need to be adding in 

multiple chemistries to prevent resistance.

And, lastly, "Are your current 
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antimicrobial products preventing you from 

reducing water use in your facility?" And so in 

the TR, there was a statement made that the POLA 

could potentially reduce water use. And so a lot 

of the chlorine products, just to make sure that, 

you know, it has to be clean water or you have to 

keep adding -- you have to keep adding and this 

-- some kind of like citric acid or something to 

keep the pH right for that chemistry for that to 

work. I'm not great at all these things, but 

that's what I understand talking with our food 

safety person.

So there is a lot of water that has 

to be cleaned, a lot of water use, and it was 

stated that POLA could potentially reduce water. 

But not -- this question was not thoroughly 

answered or answered by our stakeholders.

So most of the comments, there was a 

request for a comprehensive review of sanitizers. 

That was almost in every single comment about 

POLA, referencing POLA. And so from the Organic 
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Research Foundation priority presentation 

yesterday -- I think it was yesterday. Yesterday 

was a long day. I think it was early yesterday, 

the first presentation that we saw, it had all of 

the research priorities or what the NOSB has 

asked, you know, to go on as research. And I 

think chlorine and non-chlorine sanitizers was 

put on in 2015 and zero products have been 

started.

So that does not seem to be a focus 

on, you know, on looking for that. And so it 

seems like stakeholders want a comprehensive 

review of sanitizers. We talked about chlorine, 

you know, but I don't know how much is going on 

past that. Anyways. Just wanted to bring that 

up. I saw that and noted it down.

Although, POLA could be a good product 

to add as a safe sanitizer, it doesn't seem 

necessary at this time, nor is there enough 

information to confirm its efficacy and listing 

justification because there is not much data. 
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It's a relatively new product. The TR really had 

to reference the patent. And so that's not 

really valid for a lot of us to go on.

And so, although it doesn't seem like 

it would be a harmful product to put on at this 

time, there's not enough data. And our 

commenters mentioned that, too. They just wanted 

more TR, a third-party TR, but after, you know, 

kind of going through the subcommittee, speaking 

with Kyla that there's not data there to go after. 

So the option of the subcommittee might be a waste 

of time because there isn't that information out 

there. Anyways. I'll pass it back to you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Thanks, Logan. So we 

have to do two motions here. So we have to do a 

classification motion, and then we'll do the 

listing motion. So the first motion is to 

classify peroxylactic acid --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And do we want to 

do questions and discussion for -- if there's 

viewpoints?
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MEMBER SMITH: Oh, shoot. Sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All good. Any --

and I don't want to presuppose, anybody have 

questions for Logan on this material? Please go 

ahead, Kim. Oh, sorry, I mean Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: I think the thing 

that hit me the most is that you got little to no 

response from the people that supposedly are 

interested in this with the questions.

MEMBER PETREY: Right. Yes. Thank 

you. Yeah. So we got -- well, we did ask, you 

know, very specific questions really trying to -

- because I guess after going off through the 

chlorines from last year and the CDC, and getting 

so many responses, I just was like ready for 

people to really dive in. But it just wasn't the 

main focus.

So I have just -- now we did have a 

repeated response that was like 60 or 70 of copied 

response, and it was opposing the product just 

needing more data and wanting a comprehensive 
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review of sanitizers. And that was it.

It wasn't, you know, going into the 

questions. We really wanted producers to come 

in and say, hey, we really need help on this food 

safety deal. We're having a lot of issues with 

efficacy, like it was stated in the petition, to 

control these, you know, these bacteria problems 

because that's a big concern for the safety of 

the consumer. But we just -- we didn't get it. 

So, yeah, kind of surprised, too.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. I'll just add a 

little bit more to that, too. It seemed like 

from the few comments that we did get, that either 

from a certifier asking their producers or an end 

user that may use this, that they both stated 

that the current options out there are fine, the 

current tools are effective. And that they might 

be open to other options, but not POLA at this 

time due to the lack of data.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: I'd support Kyla's 

response from an end user standpoint and the need 

in this space.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Dilip.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Good morning. Just 

to add to what Carolyn and Kyla said to support -

- and this is from -- and Logan, you did a very 

nice review -- that these -- stabilizers are 

required for POLA solutions due to the reactivity 

of peroxycarboxylic acids. And the 

decomposition of these acid would create 

production and be unsafe for transport, and there 

are strict regulations under FDA and U.S. 

Department of Transportation for allowed 

stabilizers.

So I see a little bit here that we 

don't have the data, and as relates from other 

agencies that they are very cautious about that. 

So I will just echo what others, too, have said. 
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Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Any 

other questions or comments? All right. Let's 

go ahead with the motions.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Take two. I 

need to drink more coffee. This is what this is 

telling me. So classification motion. Motion 

to classify peroxylactic acid, POLA, as nonagricultural synthetic. It was motioned by 

Logan. Seconded by myself. And passed out of 

subcommittee with six yes and two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

with that, we're going to go to the vote, and 

we're going to actually start with you, Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay. Yes.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.
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MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes yes.

MEMBER SMITH: That's 15 yes, zero no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

motion passes. Give me one sec, Nate. Okay. 

Jerry. Okay. The national list motion is the 

motion to add peroxylactic acid, POLA, for use as 

an antimicrobial agent in process water, ice, or 

brine used in the production, processing, and 

preparation of meat and poultry products at 

205.605(b) of the national list. It was motioned 

by Logan, and seconded by myself. And it 

passed -- and the subcommittee vote what three 

yes, three no, two absent.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

we're going to start with Jerry for the first 

vote.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 
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zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

motion fails. Okay. Next up is phosphoric acid, 

and this is my material. So phosphoric acid was 

petitioned to expand annotation, so it's 

currently listed on the national list with the 

annotation of cleaning of food contact surfaces 

and equipment only.

And so it was proposed to expand the 

annotation to allow as an acidifier to adjust pH 

of an extraction solvent to extract antioxidants 

or other target molecules from lamiaceae plants 

provided the amount of acid used shall not exceed 

the minimum needed to lower pH to 2.5.

This substance went back to 

subcommittee in the spring so we could explore 

the intended uses more fully, and after that 

further review at subcommittee, we are not in 

support of expanding the current annotation. And 

from my read of the public comments, most, if not 

all, stakeholders were in support of this 

position confirming the subcommittee's rationale 
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for not changing the annotation due to not being 

essential. So that's it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

questions or comments for Kyla? Seeing none, 

please go ahead, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. So the listing 

motion is to amend the annotation of phosphoric 

acid to add the underlying verbiage so it would 

read in full, "Cleaning of food contact surfaces 

and equipment, and as an acidifier to adjust pH 

of an extraction solvent to extract antioxidants 

or other target molecules from lamiaceae plants 

provided the amount of acid used shall not exceed 

the minimum needed to lower pH to 2.5," at 

205.605(b). It was motioned by myself and 

seconded by Dilip. And the motion out of 

subcommittee -- or the vote out of subcommittee 

was zero yes, six no, two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

with that, we're going to start the voting with 

Javier.
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MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Logan, you were a 

little quiet. Just confirming you voted no?

MEMBER PETREY: Yes. No. I voted 

no.
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MEMBER SMITH: Okay.

MEMBER PETREY: Sorry.

MEMBER SMITH: Thank you.

MEMBER PETREY: I voted no.

MEMBER SMITH: Thanks. Okay. So 

that's zero yes, 15 no, zero abstentions, 

recusals, or absents. The motion fails.

Okay. Moving on to ion exchange 

recharge materials. So this is also me. So the 

topic of ion exchange was sent to the Board in 

2019 by the National Organic Program. There have 

been a few discussions and a few proposals since 

then.

The Handling Subcommittee decided to 

split this topic into two components for this 

round, so the ion exchange recharge materials 

being presented as a proposal and the resins 

being presented as a discussion document which 

we'll talk about in a moment. We decided to go 

that route because the recharge materials is the 

easier of the two.
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Over the many discussion documents and 

proposals, the consistent feedback from the 

community, you know, throughout that time is that 

recharge materials must be listed. The recharge 

materials meet the definition of a processing 

aid, and therefore must be listed. Public 

comment in this round resoundingly confirmed this 

position that recharge materials must be listed. 

Back to you, Nate.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any discussions, 

questions for Kyla? All right.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Can you go to 

Page 2 please? Thank you. The motion to approve 

the recommendation that recharge materials used 

in ion exchange filtration process must be listed 

on the national list. It was a motioned by 

myself, and seconded by Kim. Passed out of 

subcommittee with six yes and two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we'll start 

the voting with Allison.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Yes.
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MEMBER CALDWELL: Yes.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yes.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes.

MEMBER SMITH: Yes.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yes.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: Yes.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes.

MEMBER TURNER: Yes.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: Yes.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yes.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the chair 

votes yes.

MEMBER SMITH: That's 15 yes, zero no, 

two -- I'm sorry zero abstentions, recusals, or 

absent. The motion passes. Okay. I'm going to 

take a drink of water and then do my Jenny Tucker 

pause drink of water.
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Okay. Resins discussion document. 

So resins, very different story then our friend 

recharge materials, and there has not been 

consistent feedback and agreement from the 

community.

So just a quick reminder of how we got 

to where we are today. The NOP sent -- as I said 

before, the NOP sent the Board a memo in August 

of 2019 requesting the Board to provide a 

recommendation on ion exchange filtration due to 

certifier inconsistency. The Handling 

subcommittee presented a discussion document at 

the spring 2020 meeting, and then a proposal at 

the fall 2020 meeting.

The fall 2020 proposal recommended 

that the recharge materials be listed and the 

resins not be listed. The vote was nine yes, six 

no. Therefore, it failed because it did not 

reach the two-thirds decisive vote needed. And 

from my recollection, that vote didn't pass 

because those in opposition wanted to better 
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understand the comments around degradation.

The Handling Subcommittee asked for

this back, and so we -- the Handling Subcommittee 

got it back on our work agenda, and we presented 

a proposal at the spring 2021 meeting which 

outlined the complexity of the topic and the 

challenges related to FDA definitions and how 

they do or do not align with OFPA.

The proposal passed, and we included 

in the cover letter a request for NOP to engage 

with FDA on their classification of resins. We 

got that memo back and that helped frame up the 

discussion document which we presented for this 

meeting.

In that document, we presented a 

series of questions, one of which was the 

presentation of some options for how we can move 

forward. And so I'm going to run through those 

options and the stakeholders that supported those 

and their rationale.

So option one is do not list. So 
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organizations that were in support of that option 

were some trade associations and some certifiers. 

The rationale was that OFPA requires the listing 

of ingredients on the national list, and that the 

Harvey lawsuit further clarified that that that 

included processing aids.

Resins, by definition, are neither 

processing aids, nor ingredients. Therefore, it 

is outside the -- outside of the Board's purview 

to review these materials for inclusion on the 

national list.

However, stakeholders in support of 

option one also indicated that it's part of 

certifier review process currently to review the 

description of ion exchange in their review of 

the organic system plan, verify that the recharge 

materials are on the national list, verify that 

the resin was reviewed and is approved by FDA as 

a food contact substance, and that the NOP should 

provide this in an instruction to certifiers.

Option two was a categorical listing. 
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The type of -- the organizations that were in 

support of this option was a material review 

organization. They did not acknowledge that 

option one and two are both blanket allowances of 

resins, and recognized the challenge with 

annotating resins that the Board would want to 

prohibit. So categorical listing, and then it 

could be like except blah, blah -- like except Y, 

except Z. And that would be challenging because 

each of those sort of exclusions would need to be 

petitioned.

So they offered a different approach 

to the annotation. They proposed that the 

annotation could describe the appropriate 

characteristics and use parameters considered to 

be consistent with organic principles. For 

example, a criterion could be that operators 

maintain ion exchange resins in good working 

condition.

So to me that feels very similar, 

actually, to what is already occurring by 
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certifiers through their OSP review and during 

inspection of these processes. So, in practice, 

with the tweaks offered the stakeholders in 

support of option one to have that instruction to 

certifiers and the proposed annotation offered by 

the stakeholders in support of option two, you 

sort of end up in the same place with a blanket 

allowance with further review of these processes 

to ensure that resins and their use complies with 

organic principles.

Okay. We're almost done here, guys. 

Option three, list individually. Stakeholders 

in support of that option were some certifiers 

and some advocacy groups. Those in favor of this 

option focused in on the prior vote stating that 

the Board already this option down. So basically 

knocking that out of the running. However, as I 

noted in my timeline review, the vote was nine to 

six, which was only one vote shy of passing.

They also recognized that the issues 

presented was a categorical listing, therefore, 
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by default there's option three left. They also 

recognized that resins, while they may not be 

ingredients or processing aids, they also 

conclude they are functionally different than 

some other food contact substances like a table 

and support digging into this through the Board 

review and approval process.

Let's see. Stakeholders in option --

in support of option three also noted that they'd 

be in support of continuing to allow resins 

currently in use and to continue that allowance 

until the resins could be petitioned and reviewed 

by the Board.

Okay. And then lastly, you know, 

there's been a lot of discussion around the topic 

of leakage or degradation, and so as I already 

said, as I recalled from that 2020 vote, those 

that voted not to pass wanted to better 

understand the comments that had been submitted 

around degradation. There were concerns about, 

like, leakage and contamination.
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So there still appears to be some 

mixed information on this topic submitted through 

the public comment which I think the subcommittee 

can dig into and parse out as we lead up to a 

proposal.

Some of the written comments that 

stuck out to me on this are as follows, and I'll 

just some quotes. So, quote, "An ion exchange 

resin system in good working order could be seen 

as analogous to a plastic container, mechanical 

filter, or a conveyor belt, a set of materials 

that are held up to 205.272 which is the 

contamination practice standard in the 

regulation."

Another quote. "The 2020 TR on ion 

exchange filtration notes that degradation of ion 

exchange resins can happen with some regeneration 

methods. However, the result is a loss of ion 

exchange activity either due to strong absorption 

of compounds from purified food products or 

additional cross-linking between existing 
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functional groups on the polymer or with absorbed 

materials. The report did not find evidence of 

resin materials leaching into food or materials 

being filtered."

Another quote. "At no point would the 

resin themselves be viewed or approved as 

incidental additives. They are not designed to 

become part of the food product even at an 

incidental level." And then we also heard during 

the oral comments that -- sorry, that it --

anyway, I think that's good for now. So, yeah, 

more around like leakage and degradation.

So I'm really grateful that this is a 

discussion document. There's a lot of 

complexity, and we heard a lot of information 

provided in public comment. And I'm excited to 

go back and dig in with my fellow Handling 

Subcommittee colleagues and bring back a proposal 

to the spring.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Well, 

we're not voting on this one, so any questions 
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for Kyla? Please go ahead, Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: Kyla, can you just --

for the full Board, can you just remind folks as 

a certifier what the full scope of these -- of 

the practical application of these materials and 

the full scope of their use?

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. It's used for 

filtration, so juice, sugar. I'm going a little 

bit from memory here, but things that -- anything 

that -- fluids that you want to filter out heavy 

metals or, you know, things like that.

MEMBER TURNER: Thanks. I think we 

get lost in the details of the actual question at 

hand and don't think about the practical 

application, so that's why I'm asking.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Other questions 

for Kyla? Amy, please go ahead

MEMBER BRUCH: Kyla, thank you for 

that overview. Had a question for you, put on 

your certifier hat. Okay. We have 70 plus 

certifiers. I think there is, what, plus 20 plus 
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resins that are approved by the FDA. Is that 

correct?

MEMBER SMITH: I think there's 30.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Thirty, even 

more. Okay. Seventy plus certifiers, 30 plus 

resins. You reviewed an idea of guidelines that 

certifiers could follow to verify these resins, 

kind of in conjunction with option one.

What if the process that a certifier 

is working through, they decide not to approve 

this resin for use for one of the operations, how 

does that information then get transferred to the 

community because I'm sure if one certifier 

wouldn't approve a resin for use, that 

information would be beneficial to the community. 

So I'm just wondering how that process would 

flow.

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah, that's a good 

question. I don't know if I have a great answer 

for that for you at this time. I do think that -

-
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VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Is it -- if the 

FDA says that's a yes, then they start talking 

about whether the resin can be used, and then the 

OSP -- that's where the OSP looks at it?

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. I mean I think 

that if it was listed as a food contact substance 

through the FDA, and it's being used properly by 

the operator and sort of checking, you know, 

maintenance and things like that, then I don't -

- I think that they would then be allowed. And 

I think that all certifiers would make the same 

decision.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Can I jump in 

here? I think like -- well, a part -- a portion 

of what you're asking, Amy, is how do we get the 

mind of all 70 certifiers to the few more firing 

neurons connecting and making a more complex 

organism than each just being siloed by 

themselves.

And I think that's a greater question 

for the whole community, how do we collaborate 
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more? How do we realize the potential of all of 

these different, very smart reviewers having a 

say about should something not be allowed. I 

think to Kyla's point, on the whole as a foodcontact surface, usually there's not ones that 

are unapproved, if I'm catching that right on the 

whole.

MEMBER SMITH: Right. I mean it 

would be similar to -- I don't have a good --

like a wire mesh or something like that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any follow up 

then, Amy?

MEMBER BRUCH: Not necessarily. I 

just -- I mean it's just to -- I think that's a 

good way to frame my question a little bit better, 

Nate, it's just that eliminating the silo 

approach, I just see this as a process that could 

end up that way.

And just to make sure that there is a 

mechanism for shared learnings if something were 

to stand out that, you know, because the -- option 
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one would be essentially a blanket approval. So 

need to make sure the lines of communication 

would be open since there's so many different 

groups within our organization, certifiers, et 

cetera.

MEMBER SMITH: So I'll add one thing. 

I think that that's why those in favor of option 

one really pointed towards the instruction to 

certifiers in the program handbook that could 

help sort of flesh that out.

The other thing that I could offer is 

that certifiers are currently taking this 

approach, and so happy to reach out to them like 

in this next semester as we move into 

deliberation at subcommittee to ask a little bit 

more details on how -- what that process is 

working like for them currently. And there is 

also the material conflict policy where when 

certifiers disagree on something, we pitch it to 

the program.

DR. TUCKER: Which is how you got 
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this in the first place.

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. Exactly.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn, please 

go ahead.

MEMBER DIMITRI: So maybe a different 

variation of what Amy was asking. Is there a way 

to determine which resins are used more often 

than others because that could be helpful 

information going forward? I mean -- and I know 

there's a way, but I -- can we use that way to 

ask people?

MEMBER SMITH: I mean, yeah, again --

MEMBER DIMITRI: And do you see that 

as useful, Kyla?

MEMBER SMITH: That's something that 

I can try to get some more information on.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Great. Well, 

with no other questions or comments for Kyla --

oh, Amy, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

MEMBER BRUCH: Just one more general 

one for you, Kyla. Are there any scenarios, and 
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I believe I saw this in public comments, are there 

any scenarios where resins wouldn't function as 

designed? I mean I guess I could see maybe a 

maintenance challenge potentially, but it was 

just more of a broad question for you.

MEMBER SMITH: I mean I think as in 

any equipment, and this is just something that, 

you know, operators are really going to have to 

-- and they do sort of keep their eye on and make 

sure that they're in good working order and that 

just, you know, following best practices for how 

to maintain and uphold equipment. And these 

technologies are quite expensive, and so they 

want them to function properly because it's 

costly when they don't.

And then just, you know, this isn't an 

organic-focused problem, but if they were not 

functioning properly, it would be a contamination 

event. But there are, you know, resin, like, 

traps and things like that to help prevent those 

contamination events in the rare case that that 
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could occur.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's go, Mindee, 

then Rick.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yeah. Sorry, 

Rick. I'm just going to jump in there --

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Yeah.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: -- because if it 

was a contamination event, didn't I hear that it 

would be the thing they were trying to edit out 

of the product that would be staying in the 

product. Not like a other substance 

contaminating it?

MEMBER SMITH: I mean, yeah, that's 

mostly. But if -- I don't know. Like if the 

column like totally busted open, like --

whatever, like which is probably very unlikely 

and the beads like did come out.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Right. But 

they're not going to leave the beads in the juice.

MEMBER SMITH: Right. Exactly.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So if a conveyor 
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belt sort of like started disintegrating and 

falling apart, should we not allow conveyor 

belts?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, Rick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Just a comment. 

So I use a deionizing resin and I monitor it to 

see how it's doing, how many ions are there. 

Most people in industry do that because it's for 

their product, and these products are pretty much 

FDA also. So there is a lot of other checks in 

terms of contamination, quality control, and all 

of those, so I think they're pretty safe --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think as a 

Handling --

MEMBER GREENWOOD: -- as they are 

used, if it's a good processor. But that's a 

different issue, and that's up to the certifiers 

and FDA when they do their examinations.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: As a Handling 

inspector, always grateful to go into facilities 
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that have a food safety certification because 

there's a lot more eyes looking at this process 

and making sure that things are going right than 

just organic as well.

Any other questions or comments on 

this discussion document before we keep going on? 

All right. Back to you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. We are now 

moving to the sunsets. So we are going to start 

with non-synthetics at 205.605. And so the first 

one is attapulgite as a processing aid in the 

handling of plants and animal oils, and this is 

Kim's material.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Thank you, Kyla. 

Okay. So attapulgite is used as a natural 

bleaching clay for the purification of vegetables 

and animal oils. The function of the bleaching 

clay is to remove undesirable byproducts, 

impurities for the vegetable oil and animal fats 

thus improving the appearance, flavor, taste, and 

stability of the final product.
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There were a handful of commenters for 

attapulgite, very similar to the spring. There 

were four certifying agencies that responded, 

most with the number of entities that they have 

listed attapulgite in there OSPs. With that 

being said, only a couple of the certifying 

agencies brought comment forward in addition to 

the few users that are using it.

As we brought up in the spring, there 

is two ways for attapulgite to be mined -- or not 

mined, but to be produced. One is using an acid 

activation which would make it synthetic. And 

then one is non-acid activated. So just to bring 

clarity is that there are some certifying bodies 

that do validate that the type of attapulgite 

being used is the non -- a non-acid activated. 

And then just to reiterate that it's the intent 

that that's the only form to be used.

There's been a request to, you know, 

to maybe do an annotation just to validate, but 

I think it's just more clearly stated that the 
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non-synthetic, non-acid activated acid leaching 

or acid treated is a prohibited form.

Past that, there were a couple of 

groups that have challenged the need for 

attapulgite on the national list, and, you know, 

request for it to sunset just because of lack of 

acknowledgement by OSP -- people using this 

product. But, you know, we do have certifying 

bodies that are confirming that there are people 

that have it on their OSPs. Back to you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Sorry. I was getting 

my blanket. It's cold up here. Okay. So the 

motion --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm just going to 

jump in here --

MEMBER SMITH: Oh, sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- real quick.

MEMBER SMITH: Geez, Nate. Sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All good. I'm a 

stickler for process, you know? Any questions 

for Kim? No? All good? All right. I -- oh, 
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Jerry, please go ahead.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Just a quick 

question. Other than the method in which it's 

mined, is there any other environmental issue 

that's been brought up?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Other than it being 

mined?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Right. And the way 

it's --

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Not that's been 

brought up, but I think --

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah, I don't --

MEMBER HUSEMAN: -- the fact that it's 

mined is, you know, whether bentonite -- yeah, 

there is, you know, other mined -- the same 

concerns as other mined products --

MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: -- is what I have in 

my --

MEMBER D'AMORE: But it's not like 

what -- it's not like what accumulates in the 
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environment or in the -- I mean in its use, 

there's no issue?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Not in the use.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Great. That's --

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Just in the 

manufacturing.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Right. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I have a quick 

question on the summary of comments for you, Kim. 

The folks who were saying or who expressed a 

desire to have it taken off, those were more the 

advocacy groups, correct?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Correct.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: And it was around 

more of, again, the essentiality and the number 

of uses that are listed.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure. And so on 

the whole, the folks who describe -- certifiers 

on the whole were those who were saying that it 

is in use and it is showing up in OSPs, folks are 
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still requesting it be listed on their material 

list. Is that correct?

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes. And one direct 

quote would be, "Although the use of attapulgite 

is not widespread, we request to move forward --

or we request it to remain, and, you know, just 

to move forward with clarifying the difference 

between acid-activated and non-acid activated."

That seems to be where the certifying 

body is wanting, and, you know, I've expressed a 

need potentially for a work agenda item on -- for

that clarification and making sure that that, you 

know, that's where the certifying bodies tend to 

be coming from is just that clarification of the 

type as it is listed as a non-synthetic.

If it's the, you know, if the 

synthetic form is to be used, then, you know, we 

need to have an annotation or another listing as 

an a synthetic in 605(b). But it was just -- we 

need to clarify the point it needs to be the nonacid activated, acid leaching, et cetera.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. I 

think this brings up a good example of when we're 

gathering information on what impact this 

material has on growers, handlers, folks who are 

actually producing these organic foods, it's 

important that the Board hear from those 

stakeholders who are actually using it.

And I think moving into a theoretical 

we wanted off just because we want it off isn't 

as helpful as actually understanding who is using 

it and what impact it has. And I think hearing 

from certifiers is essential, and that's the mode 

through which we can understand its impact. 

Please go ahead, Carolyn.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Well, I wanted a 

clarification from Jenny, but I see she's not 

here, so. I guess I was thinking about the 

process of if we move to -- if we ask something 

to sunset, then it does have to go out for public 

comment, right, and rulemaking? Jared, I guess 

you know that. So I guess the essentiality and 
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the economic damage is something I think the NOP 

can assess even after we've voted. Sorry, 

Michelle, for walking away from my microphone.

MR. CLARK: Yes, that's correct. If 

something is voted for sunset, then it goes into 

the rulemaking process. Goes to proposed rule 

and then final rule stage. So there are other 

opportunities for public comment.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Good 

point. Any other questions for Kim? All right. 

Back to you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. So the motion 

is to remove attapulgite from the national list. 

It was motioned by Kim, and seconded by Mindee. 

The vote out of subcommittee was one yes, six no, 

one absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're going 

to start the voting with Jerry.

PARTICIPANT: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, sorry. No.

PARTICIPANT: Brian.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian. Yep. 

Brian, please go ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Yes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's one yes, 14 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 
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motion fails. Okay. Moving on, still in 605(a), 

non-synthetics allowed. We're moving to 

bentonite, and that is Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: Thanks. The 

substance is, as you said, listed at 605(a), nonsynthetics allowed, bentonite. Similar material 

to attapulgite, it's used as a processing aid, 

not an ingredient. Its absorptive qualities make 

it useful for removing impurities in edible oils 

like soy, palm, canola. It can also be used to 

clarify beer, fruit juice, wine, sugar, and 

honey, and is not present in the final product.

This is a -- the substance has had 

long support to remain on the list. Our feedback 

from the community was pretty unanimous I would 

say in terms of continued support for relisting. 

There's a phrase that's been used a lot in this 

round that's not -- no opposition to relisting 

which I hear -- I'm going to take to me support 

for relisting. So we've heard that phrase quite 

a bit this time.
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Certifiers are saying members, you 

know, have -- significant numbers of members are 

listing this in their OSPs, and there's 

widespread use. There is -- and I'm just going 

-- I'll just read this to make to reiterate some 

of the points that Kim just made.

During the spring meeting, we got 

comments expressing a specific but limited issues 

regarding the listing of this material that were 

similar to those conveyed about attapulgite. 

Commenters have maintained that it's listed, only 

non-synthetic forms of bentonite should be used 

at 605(a), and that acid-activated bentonite, 

which is treated with sulfuric or hydrochloric 

acid should be listed at 605(b) if allowed. And 

without that clarity, certifiers may be 

inconsistent with allowing certain forms of 

bentonite which could be remedied with clarity 

provided by an annotation as some commenters have 

requested.

And we fully acknowledge that, and we 
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acknowledge that only non-synthetic forms should 

be used under this listing. So appreciate that 

feedback on the annotation, and certainly think 

that should be a topic for our ongoing 

conversation. The committee did -- has not 

recommended removal from the list.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

questions or comments for Wood? Seeing none, 

back to you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. The motion is 

to remove bentonite from the national list. It 

was motioned by Wood, and seconded by Mindee. 

The vote out of subcommittee was zero yes, six 

no, two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We'll 

start the voting with Dilip.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.
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MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: That's zero yes, 15 no, 

zero abstentions, recusals, or absent. The 

motion fails. Okay. We are still at 205.605(a), 

non-synthetics allowed, and we're going to 

magnesium chloride which is me. Oh, sorry. This 

slide, one back I guess. I don't know. Slide 

says maybe just out of order.

MS. ARSENAULT: We can come back to -

-
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MEMBER SMITH: Sorry. I was like 

breathing right into the microphone.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're on the 

hunt. We're on the hunt for the right slide. 

And it's not break time. While we find the 

slide, is everyone too cold? Are we all right? 

Everyone's -- okay. If you'd like a blanket, I 

saw someone shivering. So as long as we're okay. 

People are cold? Okay. Maybe if we could turn 

the air down, not the heat on, that might help.

MS. ARSENAULT: Do you want me --

MEMBER SMITH: Should we go --

MS. ARSENAULT: The slide is not in 

the deck, it was skipped --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.

MS. ARSENAULT: Accidentally.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's go on. Do 

you feel like just reading it and not having the 

slide up, Kyla?

MEMBER SMITH: That's fine.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay.
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MS. ARSENAULT: You'll do that.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. Hold on one 

moment. Flip my pages here.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Michelle, are 

you good if we just read it? Is it good if we 

just read it instead of trying to find the slide? 

Good, Andrea? Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Cool. Thank you.

MEMBER SMITH: I'm getting there. 

Okay. Okay. So, yes. So still at 605(a) nonsynthetics allowed, diatomaceous earth, food 

filtering aid only, and this is Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: So this one is 

actually quite straightforward compared -- so 

diatomaceous earth is made from fossilized 

remains of diatoms, and it has many, many, many 

applications inside of the organic industry. 

This is very specific to food filtering aid only. 

We heard from several community members in 

multiple facets, whether it be certifying bodies, 

direct users, advocacy groups. I'd say we had a 
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little over a dozen commenters.

Multiple uses, multiple practices, 

multiple entities within certifying bodies that 

are using it. And the overwhelming comment is 

that removing it would be detrimental to juice 

making, to numerous entities that are currently 

using it as a food filtering aid. I did not get 

one negative reply.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions or 

comments for Kim? Go ahead, Mindee?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: I appreciate 

that one of our more conservative advocacy groups 

supported this one with no integrity concerns. 

I just like the phrase no integrity concerns.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

with that, we'll start the voting with -- oh, 

actually could we read the motion please?

MEMBER SMITH: The motion to remove 

diatomaceous earth from the national list was 

motioned by Kim, seconded by Mindee. And voted 

out of subcommittee with zero yes, seven no, and 
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one absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we'll start 

the voting with Rick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 
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abstentions, recusals, or absent. The motion 

fails. Great. Okay. Now we're on magnesium 

chloride, again, still at 205.605(a) nonsynthetics allowed, and that is my material.

So magnesium chloride is used as a 

coagulant and firming agent in tofu production as 

well as in dietary supplements. It can also be 

used as a color-retention agent. We received 

several comments from various stakeholders 

including certifiers, trade groups, and 

membership organizations.

From my read, there wasn't an 

opposition to relisting this material. However, 

as stated in the spring, there continues to be 

comments that suggest including an annotation to 

specify the allowed non-synthetic process as well 

as limiting the uses to specific types of organic 

food production, namely tofu and dietary 

supplements. And as we have already discussed, 

this is a broader work agenda item on annotation 

changes. And that's all I have.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions or 

comments for Kyla? All right. We'll wait for 

Kim to grab her seat before we vote. No rush. 

Okay. Go ahead, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. The motion to 

remove magnesium chloride from the national list 

was motioned by myself, and seconded by Allison. 

Passed out of subcommittee with zero yes, six no, 

two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

we'll start the voting with Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.
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MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, recusal, or absent. The motion 

fails. Okay. Still at 205.605(a), nonsynthetics allowed. The material is nitrogen, 

oil-free grades. This is also my material, and 

this is also an easy one. It's used to reduce 

oxidation of products during processing, storage, 

and packaging, and it also can be used in flash 

freezing. And all commenters were in favor of 

relisting.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions or 

comments for Kyla? Hearing none. Please go 

ahead, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: The motion to remove 
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nitrogen from the national list was motioned by 

myself, seconded by Allison. Voted out with a 

vote of zero yes, five no, three absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

with that, we will start with you, Kyla. For the 

vote.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

absent, recusals, or abstentions. The motion 

fails. Still at 205.605(a), non-synthetics 

allowed, and this is sodium carbonate which is 

Dilip. Oh, Dilip's first.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes. Thank you, 

Kyla. I appreciate that, and now you can relax 

a little bit. You've been speaking. So thanks. 

I'd first like to thank, you know, our 

subcommittee. And when I had this little write 

up, Kyla and Mindee, they reviewed and gave their 

good suggestions. So hopefully is in good shape 

and it's a simple one.

Sodium carbonate, it's listed as 

205.605(a), non-synthetics allowed, and the 

subcommittee review, use, it's a raising or 

leavening agent. So sodium carbonate is known 

as washing soda or soda ash. Also it is used in 

anti-caking agent, and an acidity regulator, as 
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a stabilizer, and as a neutralizer for butter, 

cream, fluid milk, and ice cream.

So the public comments were in support 

of list -- keep relisting sodium carbonate 

because of its -- as an essence shell, you know, 

in the food industry as well as in a lot of the 

products as I just mentioned, and because it is 

also used as a pH adjuster in organic laundry 

detergents. One certifier or also commented that 

it is also used to clean food and remove mold.

This material is essential for organic 

handling and processing, and there are no 

alternatives available that can replace sodium 

carbonate. Removal of any materials allowed for 

cleaning can be problematic. So based on the TAP 

review, sodium carbonate may be produced from 

mine deposits or by chemical reaction which is 

called Solvay process.

In return submission for the spring 

2022 NOSB meeting, a certifier commented, and I'm 

going to read that, there are a few lines. 
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"Based on the original 1995 TAP reviews, the 

reviews considered sodium carbonate produced via 

Trona process to be non-synthetic, and that 

produced via Solvay process to be synthetic.

However, based on NOP guidance 50331, 

it appears that both processes result in a 

synthetic classification for the sodium 

carbonate. QAI currently permits sodium 

carbonate produced by Trona process based on 95 

TAP review, but encourages that NOSB to examine 

the prevalent manufacturing processes to ensure 

appropriate classification and/or annotation."

It appears sodium carbonate would be 

more appropriately listed at 205.605(b) with an 

annotation to only permit forms produced by the 

Trona process. Hence, the Handling Subcommittee 

will evaluate this as a future work agenda item. 

Back to Chair.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions or

comments for Dilip? Liz, just go ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Yes.
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MEMBER GRAZNAK: Great job.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Seriously good 

job. Yes. All right. Hearing no questions or 

comments, we'll go to the vote, and the vote will 

start with Mindee.

MEMBER SMITH: Hold up. Let me --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, yep. I'm 

sorry.

MEMBER SMITH: -- read the motion.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm sorry.

MEMBER SMITH: The motion to remove 

sodium carbonate from the national list was 

motioned by Dilip, seconded by myself. Passed 

out of subcommittee zero yes, six no, two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And now we'll go 

to Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thanks, guys.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

MEMBER SMITH: Great job, Dilip. 

Zero yes, 15 no, zero abstentions, recusal, or 

absent. The motion fails. Okay. We are moving 

to 205.605(b), synthetics allowed. Or acidified 

sodium chlorite, secondary direct antimicrobial 

food treatment and indirect food contact surface 

sanitizing acidified with citric acid only. And 
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this is Carolyn.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Great. Thank you, 

Kyla. The use for acidified sodium chlorite is 

as a processing aid in wash and rinse water, and 

it's allowed for direct food contact and indirect 

food contact. So there were four general areas 

of comments from our -- in the public. No one 

said anything about it in the oral comments, but 

in the written comments, several mentioned 

wholehearted support for keeping this on the 

list.

A few respondents wanted to see a 

documented use for the product, and without 

documented use, thought it should sunset. One 

commenter stated there need to be better ways to 

clean food contact surfaces that do not use 

chlorine, and another commenter reminded the NOP 

and the NOSB of the need to look at sanitizers as 

a whole.

So those were the comments. I think 

it seems safe to keep it on the list from my 
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perspective. And I wonder if anyone has any 

comments.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any comments or 

questions for Carolyn? All right. Hearing 

none, back to you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Motion to remove 

acidified sodium chlorite from the national list 

was motioned by Carolyn, seconded by myself. 

Passed out of subcommittee with zero yes, six no, 

two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we'll start 

the voting with Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.
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MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, recusals, or absent. The motion 

fails. Okay. Still on 205.605(b), synthetics 

allowed, carbon dioxide. This is also Carolyn.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Great. So carbon 

dioxide is used for stored -- I guess modified 

atmosphere storage and packaging, freezing, for 

carbonating those tasty beverages we like, an 

extracting agents, and for pest control. And 

basically everyone said please keep this on the 

list. There wasn't even -- people use it because 

obviously, we sell a lot of carbonated organic 

beverages.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions for 

Carolyn? All right. Hearing none, back to you, 

Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Motion to remove 

carbon dioxide from the national list motion by 

Carolyn, seconded by Kim. Passed out of 

subcommittee zero yes, six no, two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we'll start 

the voting with Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.
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MEMBER SMITH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, recusals, or absent. The motion 

fails. Okay. 205.605(b) still, synthetics 

allowed, sodium phosphates for use only in dairy 

foods. And this is Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: Thanks, Kyla. The 

substance is sodium phosphates for use only in 

dairy. Sodium phosphates are salts used as pH 

control agents, and buffers, and texturizers, and 

nutrients in organic dairy products. They 

stabilize milk and act as emulsifiers in cheese. 

It can be used as a processing agent in heavy 

whipping cream.

It binds to milk materials to prevent 

the milk from coating the equipment during 
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processing. It's used in some organic milk 

products such as half and half and heavy whipping 

cream to stabilize the milk protein and ensure 

the products do not separate or lose protein 

prior to consumer use.

We have gotten -- historically got a 

lot of comments on this material over time, or 

significant comments that have been mixed with 

some concern over the years about potential human 

health impacts. There was a 2016 TR on this that 

was inconclusive on that fact, or inconclusive on 

that issue.

This time, we got about 12 -- we had 

12 comments specifically in written form. Nine 

in support of keeping it on the list, three in 

support of removing it from the list. 

Specifically I would say the -- what's important 

to note is that the dairy producers who did 

comment said it was absolutely essential to what 

they do, and would cause their businesses 

significant challenges if they didn't have the 
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material. The committee was -- is not proposing 

removal. And I think that's all I'll say.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions 

for Wood? Dilip, please go ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Very quick. Wood, 

three comments. You said they were in -- not in 

favor. Can you tell a little bit about why they 

were not in favor? And I'm reading here one 

sentence which caught my attention that this is 

purification step in each reaction to remove 

substance like arsenic, and arsenic we all know 

it's, you know, so I'm just curious to know what 

are the three commenters about.

MEMBER TURNER: Yeah. The three 

comments -- let's see. One was focused on the 

human health concerns that I mentioned that have 

been raised and were inconclusive in the 2016 TR. 

And two others were focused on eliminating 

inorganic phosphates in organic in general.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Okay. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 
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questions? All right. Back to you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. The motion to 

remove sodium phosphates from the national list, 

motioned by Wood, seconded by Kim. Passed out 

of subcommittee zero yes, six no, two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. And 

we'll start the voting with Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.
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MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, recusals, or absent. The motion 

fails. Okay. We are moving to 205.606, nonorganically produced agricultural products 

allowed as ingredients in or on processed 

products labeled as organic.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Real quick, Kyla. 

Let's maybe take a break --

MEMBER SMITH: Do you want to --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- real quick.

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. I was 

wondering.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We're doing 

really good on time.

MEMBER SMITH: I know. Yep. Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: So let's come 
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back at -- we can still come back at 45, yeah? 

Cool. Yeah. So let's take a break until 10:45, 

and we will reconvene then. See you all then.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 10:22 a.m. and resumed at 

10:49 a.m.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. So as 

we wind our way back to our seats, we're going to 

get started back with Handling again. And we are 

just cruising. So it's going to be casings, 

pectin, and then potassium acid tartrate, and we 

will be done with Handling. So props to you 

Chair. So go ahead, Kyla, I'll hand it back to 

you.

MEMBER SMITH: Okay. My table 

partner's making crinkle noises up here. Okay. 

So we are at 205.606, non-organically produced 

agricultural products allowed as ingredients in 

or on processed products labeled as organic, and 

we are at casing -- or B, casings from processed 

intestines. And this is Mindee.
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VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you, Kyla. 

And, Allison, I promise you won't have to be 

afraid. Here we are at 606, casings from 

processed intestines are allowed only when the 

product is commercially available in organic 

form. The intestines are washed in water with 

no chemicals and salted using sodium chloride in 

water. No other ingredients or processing aids 

are used. Animal intestines may be from organic 

or non-organic animals as slaughterhouses do not 

separate certified and non -- certified organic 

and non-organic offal.

We have these comments from 

stakeholders. There were three suggestions for 

a discussion document on the barriers to organic 

casing production, but we also have an extensive 

comment from a producer outlining the barriers to 

organic production. I gave a comprehensive 

overview of these comments in the spring meeting, 

and we heard from this producer in oral comment 

last week.
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Another commenter noted that if nonorganic casings were prohibited, we would not be 

able to produce organic sausages. Casings are 

essential to organic production, and I suggest 

the listing should remain until we see some major 

developments in infrastructure in the final 

stages of processing to produce inorganic casing.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions about 

intestines for Mindee. Please go ahead, Kim.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Love to talk about 

guts. So I just confirmed with Wood that I don't 

think that this is a research priority as it 

stands today, but this does continually get 

brought up is what are the barriers for 

separating conventional from organic casings, the 

amount of organic hog production in the U.S., or 

even abroad, and what does it look like from an 

economic standpoint for organic casings to be a 

viable, commercially available product?

And I understand the reasons why it's 

not, but maybe it would be something to consider 
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for a research priority and what would it take. 

And just -- I want to make sure that I bring that 

up.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn, please 

go ahead.

MEMBER DIMITRI: I want to follow up 

on what Kim was just saying, and I think maybe 

some of that market development money that's 

being rolled out could be helpful here because my 

guess is it's the -- something to do with the 

access to processing facilities for the hogs 

after -- the organic hog sectors.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Can I follow up on 

that just real quick?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, and I'm ready 

to follow up on that, so go ahead.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. Yeah. I 

think you're spot on, Carolyn. And the overhead 

in order to produce organic pork is probably 

quite extensive. So from a processing 

standpoint, it's quite simple to run an organic 
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line one day, and then a conventional line three 

days later. But to separate the offal is a 

barrier, too. So I appreciate that comment 

there.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yeah. I really 

appreciate the comment from the producer because 

it does outline extensively what's happening for 

producers at slaughter and processing, and how 

just the small amount of organic processing that 

goes into those bigger facilities. And I think 

we've heard a lot in the marketplace.

And I've seen it personally in my area

where, especially local producers who are doing 

smaller amounts of pasture-raised pork, you can't 

hardly even get into a facility to do an organic 

slaughter. So I know that there's really good 

work going on out there about helping producers 

like gain access and so we can grow those markets, 

but in the economy of scale, we're just not there.

MEMBER DIMITRI: I mean I think this 
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kind of brings up like another market-based 

question because the organic livestock producers, 

especially the smaller scale ones, really 

struggle with input costs rising and then the 

lack of access to slaughter makes it just really 

hard to navigate. And I think a lot of the 

smaller scale producers are just giving up their 

-- and even up to medium scale, are just giving 

up their organic certification, which I know is 

a little tangential to this conversation, but --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not at all.

MEMBER DIMITRI: -- already started, 

Kim. And I like this kind of conversation.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. I 

think some takeaways from this week, and I think 

from every meeting, are how are we doing as 

coalition builders with folks who are not in 

organic but have a lot of the same interests, a 

lot of the same concerns. And this meat question 

I think it's just really pronounced for how we 

are affecting change in alignment with everyone 
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else who's concerned about this issue.

So I think we've put a lot of -- a lot 

of emphasis and weight on standards thinking 

that, say, if we delisted it, it would somehow 

encourage innovation. Or we could take the other 

tact and just say how are we getting regional 

processing meat companies and other folks who are 

interested in this issue into this room to show 

how much alignment that we have and how we're 

going to innovate this together. So appreciate 

that, Kim. Any other questions or comments?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yeah. I'm 

excited about some of the work in California 

that's going on right now. I think there's a new 

coop of ranchers that slaughter in our area, and 

the difficulties that they face are endless, but 

I'm really proud of the folks up there doing work 

like that. So there's some hope in the future.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Allison, please 

go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thanks. I'm just 
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going to take advantage of Jenny walking back in 

the room to reiterate what was just said that 

market development opportunities for 606 products 

would be really great to see integrated into the 

transition initiative, and since you're getting 

set up to remind people that there is a listening 

session on November 15th, I believe, to raise 

ideas. So hopefully some of this discussion will 

translate to that forum, too.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

further questions or comments? All right. Back 

to you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Motion to remove 

casings from the national list was motioned by 

Mindee, and seconded by myself. Passed out of 

subcommittee with zero yes, seven no, one absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the voting 

is going to start with Carolyn.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.
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MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, recusals, or absent. The motion 

fails. Next up, still at 606, we'll move to O, 

pectin, non-amidated forms only. And this is, 

again, Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Here we are, 606 

land of commercial availability. Non-amidated 
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forms of pectin are allowed only when the product 

is not commercially available in organic forms. 

Public comments for this round continued to 

emphasize that pectin is routinely used as a 

stabler, a thickener in jelling agents. Organic 

alternatives are still not widely available or do 

not function at the same quality.

There are ancillary substances 

present in pectin as stabilizers and 

standardizing agents. These could include 

sugar, dextrose, and buffering agents. The 

reference there to the 2015 TR, if anyone's more 

curious about that, pectin is essential to the 

low-sugar jam products available in certified 

organic forms. There are no alternatives 

available for this specific function according to 

a producer.

Stakeholders support relisting with 

some highlights and concerns. One suggestion 

included the assertion that since pectin is made 

from agricultural products that can be supplied 
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organically, we should consider sunsetting this 

listing. And another requested better 

understanding of the barriers to organic 

production.

A stakeholder noted that the supplies 

of organically produced fruits and citrus peel 

byproducts are simply not available in quality, 

nor quantity that can provide basis for an 

industrial production of commercial pectin 

products in an organic form that would satisfy 

customer demand.

There's a lot -- they've listed -- I 

have the big list of products that can't be --

cannot be produced without pectin at this time, 

and that there aren't commercially available 

organic alternatives. And therefore, this 

listing of pectin remains essential to organic 

food production.

A side note, there was a stakeholder 

suggesting a potential annotation limiting forms 

to the high-methoxyl pectin which is extracted 
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from citrus peel and apple parts.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions from 

the Board for Mindee? All right. Back to you, 

Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Motion to remove 

pectin from the national list was motioned by 

Mindee, seconded by myself. Passed out of 

subcommittee zero yes, seven no, one absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we'll start 

the voting with Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: No.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No. Sorry.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.
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MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, recusals, or absent. The motion 

fails. Last material, you all. 205.606(p), 

potassium acid tartrate. This is Allison and her 

first fall sunset.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. All 

right. Potassium acid tartrate is cream of 

tartar. It occurs naturally in grapes. It is a 

byproduct of wine making. It's mainly used in 

baked goods. It's an ingredient in baking 

powder. It's also used to stabilize egg whites 

and adjust pH, including in wine. And it may be 

used as an antimicrobial. This is basically an 

extract of the crusty stuff that's left in the 

wine VAT after wine making, and it's extracted 

with hot water.
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A note on commercial availability for 

this ingredient. It's tricky because it is 

derived from wine and the labeling restrictions 

for wine because of the use of sulfites mean that 

most wine production is labeled made with 

organic, and so you could only have this product 

currently come from organic wine made without 

sulfites. So that seems to be limiting the 

supply. There may not be any on the market, and 

we specifically asked about that in comments for 

this round and heard nothing.

So similar to the spring, we heard 

from a number of trade associations and 

certifiers who have members using this, mostly in 

baking. We also heard from one advocacy 

organization that would like to remove it 

because, unless we do have an organic supply, it 

remains a product of conventional agriculture.

And because of the comment that we 

included in the agenda about the made-withorganic issue, a number of groups mentioned that 
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we might want to examine an annotation change to 

allow made with organic potassium acid tartrate. 

So something to consider for the future.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Questions for 

Allison? Great job, Allison. Thank you for your 

work. I wasn't surprised, but excellent job. 

And thank you for your contributions throughout 

the semester. It's been a really valuable voice. 

If we don't have any questions or comments, back 

to you, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. Great job, 

Allison. I thank you bring a lot of value with 

your certification background on some of these 

materials, so.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the legal 

background. I love having a lawyer on the team.

MEMBER SMITH: Motion to remove 

potassium acid tartrate from the national list, 

motion by Allison, seconded by myself. Passed 

out of subcommittee zero yes, six no, two absent.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And we're going 
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to go to the votes starting with Jerry.

MEMBER D'AMORE: No.

MEMBER ZAMORA: No.

MEMBER JOHNSON: No.

MEMBER CALDWELL: No.

MEMBER NANDWANI: No.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: No.

MEMBER BRUCH: No.

MEMBER SMITH: No.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: No.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: No.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: No.

MEMBER TURNER: No.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan?

MEMBER PETREY: No.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And the Chair 

votes no.

MEMBER SMITH: Zero yes, 15 no, zero 

abstentions, recusals, or absent. The motion 

fails. And that concludes Handling.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Nice work, nice 

work. Excellent work, team. Now the fun stuff 

starts. So we are just doing great on time, so 

we're going to go and ask our previous Board 

members who did not get a final meeting to join 

us up here. So that'd be Asa, and Jesse, and 

Steve, and Scott Rice. And we're making room for 

you. And just a moment to -- an opportunity to 

chat amongst us all. We didn't get a chance as 

new members to meet in person with them before.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I was looking for 

Mindee to get started, and she's capturing the 

moment. Thank you, Mindee. We all survived this 

pandemic together. We couldn't have gotten very 

far without you guys. So we wanted to just --

want to say thank you for all of the work that 

you did and all of the leadership you provided, 

even if it was virtual, to getting my class, the 

next class, up and going. So thank you.

(Applause.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Anything we 
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celebrate as far as efficacy, culture, 

collaboration on this Board as we see it now I 

think can be attributed to the tone and the real 

sense of mentorship and collegiality that these 

four brought. And so it is with no small -- none 

of this happens by accident. This is really 

intentional leadership and intentional 

collaboration.

I think I can personally attribute 

learning a ton and feeling comfortable that this 

Board was a place to really work out tough ideas 

in a very respectful environment. And so, again, 

thank you.

As we work -- look around the Board, 

I think this is our chance to try to download 

some information from these four. Any questions 

we have about history or any ideas of how they 

would have voted in the last couple of runs. But 

kind of -- we have time, folks, so just sort of 

open up to the floor anything we want to ask or 

anything that is on our minds. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 
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Go ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: I kind of asking 

this casually anyway, but hindsight's 2020, and 

at some level what do you wish you had known, 

tell us now like as Board members, when you look 

back?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's go to Scott 

first.

MR. RICE: Yeah. I've been asked 

this a couple of times now, and mostly it's --

the other part of it is are you glad you're off 

or do you wish you were still there. And that 

one's a little bit easier. I'm glad to be off, 

but I do miss the work. It was -- I do and don't. 

You know, as you all are realizing, it's really 

fulfilling and I just learned an immense amount 

about details that never thought I would be 

diving into even having done it in the 

certification world.

But, I'm sorry, but I don't have an 

answer of like what I would have done 
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differently, or I think just being open to the 

ideas that your Board members bring and even when 

you think your mind is made-up, always be open to 

what comes down the comment lane, you kind of 

least expect it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Asa?

MR. BRADMAN: In 2020 hindsight, we 

always have 2020 hindsight. There was some 

issues that I think that was the most difficult 

for me was hydroponics. And I didn't feel like 

the proposals and the things that we voted on 

didn't quite hit it right.

And if I were to do that again, I would 

think I would probably abstain and argue that we 

needed a better definition of what was 

hydroponics and -- because the vote hydroponics 

referred to another definition, and the other 

definition I didn't feel like was quite right. 

And I feel like there should have been 

consistency between some of the proposals and 

that, and how soluble nitrogen fertilizers like 
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the soybean, you know, hydrolyzed nitrogen, we 

should have also put limitations on use of that 

in soil, or considered that.

And I also was kind of torn between, 

you know, in some cases where we're growing 

things in soil, but in many ways it's a hydroponic 

environment. But I feel like that issue still 

tears apart and that there could have been some -

- I tend to be a compromiser and a, you know, I 

like to look for consensus. And, you know, 

that's not always possible. So that's something, 

you know, that was a hard decision.

And when I look at like the current, 

you know, some of the reactions to that with 

real -- like the real organic standard, which I 

think is good in many ways, but I think you should 

be able to grow food on the roof of a building or 

on a parking lot, or something that's been 

repurposed and it's not connected to the soil, 

but also is certified organic.

So I think those are issues that I 
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think tore at me then, and I was new and kind of 

green, but I think still tear, and that need work 

and thought.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Not so much on the 

specifics of hydroponics per se, but on the idea 

of how we build this culture of collaboration and 

make sure that we do feel comfortable with a --

feeling comfortable that we don't need to get to 

an answer too quickly. That we have a discussion 

document process, and how long it stays a 

discussion document is sort of interminable.

Could you speak a little bit to how 

you would like to see that conversation and that 

collaboration, how mature it should be before we 

should feel the need to move forward?

MR. BRADMAN: I don't know because 

there were a lot of people frustrated at 

progress, and it felt like it had already taken 

too long. And as a new Board member, there was 

really a lot to learn about that issue. And I 

know for me, maybe the issue had been around for 
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a while, but being on the Board, it was such a 

short time that getting up to speed on that was 

a challenge.

Another issue, and I'm going to make 

a pitch here, I'm going to take advantage of my 

last time at the mic, you know, and this came up 

just already in the meeting this week, the issue 

of having some way to allow Board members some 

reimbursement or, you know, I don't think 

compensation's the right word, but reimbursement 

if they don't have resources to participate on 

the Board.

You know, I had a job at the 

University of California. I had benefits and 

retirement, you know? Sure I was up late a lot 

at night working. But for folks who are, you 

know, dedicated to organic for their whole lives 

but can't afford the time that it takes to be on 

the Board, I think it -- that participation 

should be accessible to them, and I just want to 

reiterate that.
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(Applause.)

MEMBER PETREY: Hey, Nate?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah.

MEMBER PETREY: I have a question.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Oh, sorry, Logan.

MEMBER PETREY: No. I --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I always look 

around the room and be like where are you sitting. 

Sorry, go ahead.

MEMBER PETREY: I mean I wasn't waving 

my hand or anything. I'll go after Dilip, that's 

fine.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No, no, go ahead. 

Go ahead.

MEMBER PETREY: Okay. It was on 

Asa's comment, you know, and your comment on, you 

know, we do want to sit on things and make sure 

that they're right, and vet through and, you 

know, it does take a while. But I can imagine 

being a hydroponic farmer and waiting for that to 

come out. And, you know, the investments that 
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go in, or I can see how that's really, really 

list shaking, that adds a lot of pressure, too, 

for that.

So I can see where you're saying that, 

Asa, you know, you -- there was frustration 

possibly. Did you feel like that was part of it 

as well, people were kind of hanging in limbo 

with their production and --

MR. BRADMAN: Yes. And there were 

already operations that had the USDA label that 

was, you know, way before my time.

MEMBER PETREY: Yeah.

MR. BRADMAN: So to me, it wasn't --

it seems like the decisions in a way had already 

been made.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: I just want to 

give Jesse and Steve a chance to answer the first 

question of hindsight.

MR. BUIE: Okay. And I'm really 

appreciative for this opportunity. But looking 

in hindsight, for me, I think if I would have 
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come to this position with a better understanding 

of the relationship between the Board, NOP, and 

really the bigger congressional involvement in 

this process, it would have -- I think it would 

have made me -- I could understand a lot of the 

problems we were having in trying to come up with 

solutions.

But, again, I realize that the system 

we're in, it's -- we have to realize we're dealing 

with some high-level issues, which -- a lot of 

which we can recommend, but the decision is still 

going to be made someplace else. And if we 

understand that, I think it'll help out a lot. 

But the thing that kind of got me was we were 

dealing with issues that we didn't necessarily -

- we didn't -- how do I want to say that?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: They were outside 

our lane?

MR. BUIE: Well, in a way. In a way. 

We didn't really create it, but then we were 

tasked to deal with it. And that's what we do. 
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That's what we should do. Okay. And as a Board 

like this, whatever task we're given, I think we 

ought to work the best we can to make it happen. 

That's what we did with hydroponics. We did. We 

worked -- I mean we worked real hard with 

recommendations and all of these things.

But then we learned how the system 

works, and that's frustrating sometimes. But the 

thing -- the beauty of this whole situation now 

is that I really say that this community is 

focused on the organic label, which is what I'm 

all about. From day one, that's what I was 

about. But our efforts in the end may not always 

satisfy us 100 percent, but it's our -- I think 

we'll do the best we can to make -- to create the 

high standards for the label that we can in 

whatever decision we are making. So that's kind 

of where I am.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Steve?

MR. ELA: I guess a couple things. 

You know, one, I mean and just very quickly, you 
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know, you asked about time and discussion 

documents. But when I came on the Board, 

discussion documents didn't formally exist. And 

I will give a shout out to Tom Chapman out there 

for kind of starting actually that process of 

where we actually formalized a discussion 

document versus a proposal that got set back to 

subcommittee. And I think that's -- there is an 

important distinction there. That does -- a 

discussion document has a different tone than 

something you might vote on.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure.

MR. ELA: And so I think that's really 

great. But I think the two things in hindsight 

I wish I'd known, and I got called out more than, 

well, a lot, is really understanding OFPA. And, 

you know, it -- as a new member you come in and 

you read it. I read it on the plane going to 

training. Read lots of things on the plane.

But, you know, really being versed 

back into it a year later or again of what are 
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the regulations. And, you know, and I -- it's 

so hard to remember that because it's complicated 

and we're not -- I'm not a regulations person. 

But yet that's the world we work in.

But then the other thing I think that 

I came to appreciate, and it really is that 

everybody out there, like we're on the Board, we 

don't have to be the experts. You know, the 

public comment process gives a chance for so much 

brain trust from people that deal with this in 

their day-to-day lives.

And so I came to rely much more on 

public comments and throwing things out and 

saying what do you think, and taking that back 

in. And I think that, to me, those two things, 

understanding the role and understanding that 

there are smarter people in the room and that we 

should listen to them, so.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Super. Go ahead, 

Dilip.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Thank you, Chair. 
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So this is a simple one. Among this Board, 

before our new members as, you know, and I'd like 

to seek your suggestions or any advice you want 

to -- or any experience you want to share with 

us. You know, yesterday afternoon kind of when 

one of the topic, we kind of struggled to -- sorry 

-- struggled to kind of word, or stumble and all 

that.

So what do you want to advise us on? 

And this is -- I'm looking at at least next four 

years. This is our first year, and we have eight 

Board meetings to go. This is first in-person 

meeting, and anything you want to just say there, 

you know, thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: This is for the 

young folks in the room, how are they going to 

survive these next eight meetings? What tips or 

tricks you got?

MR. RICE: I was glad to see you were 

all able to get together in person because I 

think -- I can't it's tough for me to imagine 
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having the experience without that. And so it's, 

you know, I'm sure you're all relieved for that 

as well.

But taking advantage of that in-person 

time to really -- it's tough to do the long 

conversations on the technical things on a 

subcommittee call, and, of course, you can have 

other calls. But just that face to face I think 

has been over the years really, really helpful 

for me and just taking advantage of that.

MR. ELA: I'll echo that, and I think, 

you know, the hard part on phone calls is the 

subcommittee is only a part of the Board. And 

so you get to a full Board meeting and the 

subcommittee has their recommendation. And then 

the people that aren't on the subcommittee on 

Zoom are right there in the thick of it, and 

there's no chance for the discourse among the 

Board or with stakeholders to think about the 

nuances of something that is in writing, but it's 

maybe in much more detail. So I think the in-
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person side is really important for just 

discussion and going back and forth.

And I also think, you know, it's fine 

for votes not to be 15/zero. You know, it's good 

to have robust discussion and to disagree. And 

then move on, and the next vote's something 

different.

And I mean that's, you know, Asa 

talked about hydroponics, but I think aside from 

the issue of hydroponics, the real danger in that 

discussion was the Board divided. And not just 

on that topic. It created two camps, and that I 

disliked. And so I just would say to this Board, 

agree or disagree, disagree vehemently, you know, 

go tooth to nail and arm to arm, and then go to 

dinner together.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah. Yeah.

MR. RICE: And not, you know, it's 

not, oh, I'm only going with my friends or this. 

And I think that is so important to just be people 

and not have the topic define who your 
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friendships are.

MR. BUIE: You know, that was 

tremendous. But I also want to say I think for 

the next four years, and during this next four 

year, this Board is going to have to deal with 

some issues that's really going to tax your 

expertise. And I think that part of the solution 

to that is, number one, that you're going to have 

to really do your homework to defend whatever 

your position is.

And that's the other beauty of this 

Board. It's like every -- nobody shouts anybody 

down. You will be able to thoroughly present 

whatever your position is, and that's the beauty 

of it. But the challenge that you're going to 

have with the topics that are coming up, I really 

don't know how you're going to make it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: There's a vote of 

confidence right there.

MR. BUIE: But you will. But you 

will. You're going to make it. And as Steve 
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said, you're going to have to hang together. And 

really, the stakeholders are going to be the ones 

who are going to give you that -- going to give 

you a lot of that guidance that you need. But 

we know how that works.

You know, when you sit in this 

position, your ultimate goal is to focus on that 

organic seal. That's going to be your guiding 

issue right there. Regardless of whatever all 

these other pressures that you're going to have 

on you, and you're going to get legislators, too. 

That's in there, too. Big money people. All of 

this stuff. But in the end, you need to -- you're 

going to have to focus on the organic seal.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do you want to 

jump in there, Jerry?

MEMBER D'AMORE: If you don't mind. 

Jesse, that was great, and it was one heck of a 

teaser. And so I was going to ask one question 

of the four of you, and I'm going to start with 

you, Jesse, because you're halfway there.
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I was watching all of you out in the 

audience, and there was some nodding of the head 

and some, oh, okay. But my one question would 

be as you look at us today, define what you think 

might be coming. Tell us what you think is some 

of what we're going to have to deal with that may 

not be so apparent to these folks sitting here, 

including myself.

MR. BUIE: Yeah. Yeah.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: There is no 

requirement to --

MR. BUIE: Well, you know, as they 

say, I'm not going to throw a grenade and then 

run back in the foxhole. Rich started this. 

That's who really started it. I think that's 

where you're talking, some of the issues that's 

going to come up that's -- the generic 

engineering stuff and how organic is going to 

deal with that.

I see that being a big issue as we 

want to keep organic farming competitive, and 
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that's the challenge we're going to have. We're 

going to have to survive. We're going to have 

to stay in business. But you got all of these 

competing technologies out there which how we 

deal with that is going to determine how organic 

comes out in the end.

I don't know again. Okay. I don't 

know. But that's my concern. How will this 

Board deal with the new technologies and the new 

emphasis on providing food to inner cities and 

all of these kind of issues which we kind of deal 

with from the standpoint that this -- organic is 

not elite, but many people say we are.

But if we're going to definitely deal 

with some of these other food shortages and 

issues, things are going to have to be done a 

little different. That is going to be the 

challenge of this Board to figure out how to do 

that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's go to 

Javier, and then Amy.
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MEMBER ZAMORA: Thank you. I have 

had the opportunity to speak with all of you and 

spend time off the, you know, after the meetings, 

and I really appreciate what you're bringing to 

me as a newbie, as a new Board member on the time 

that you would take and to give me your expertise 

and educate myself so I can become a better Board 

member.

But at the same time I'm hearing 

frustration and perhaps things being conducted in 

a way that perhaps this Board did not agree on. 

I mean -- and some decision were made prior to 

you guys voting on something, I'm talking about 

the container-growing stuff.

My question to you is do you think if 

some of those decisions are made in a different 

way, do you think that's going to -- it's 

jeopardizing the value of this Board as giving 

direction to the NOP? And also will that create 

a new movement, a new label? How do you feel 

about that? And I'm thinking 10, 15, 20 years 
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maybe my daughter will be dealing with that, my 

grandkids.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Do we need to 

acknowledge that you all came in on hydroponics 

and went out on a pandemic? I mean --

MR. BRADMAN: I feel like I want to 

respond through I'm not sure how to. You know, 

I mean I think, you know, I mean this kind of 

thing ties back to hydroponics because that was 

one of the issues that, you know, people felt did 

-- could warrant a new movement, or -- and I felt 

at the time that there should be an organic 

hydroponic label so people know what they're 

getting. And, you know, that kind of disappeared 

after the issue was off our agenda.

But, you know, I think USDA organic 

though still sets the gold standard in many ways. 

And I think that it will, and I think that will 

always be true. I mean -- and there are hard 

issues. I mean like carrageenan is another issue 

where, you know, a previous Board voted to take 
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it off and the NOP did not respond. And then we 

voted with a strong majority to take it off, but 

it was, you know, nine to six, not ten to five.

And, you know, I think there's always 

going to be that kind of gnashing of teeth. But 

I just would go back to what Steve just said, you 

know, the people on the Board I think really 

always have represented kind of a diverse, you 

know, diverse constituency, and that there will 

be differences.

But, you know, I think that, you know, 

going forward, that there is still a real 

commitment to the label. And, you know, what 

Jesse just said about competitiveness and, you 

know, I mean we have organic becoming a big 

industry that I think it does change, you know, 

it's different from when I first got interested 

in these things in the 70s, you know, when I was 

in high school. And, you know, I think there's 

always going to be some challenges with how 

that's going to move forward, and it's hard to 
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predict what the future is going to be like.

But I agree that it has to be 

competitive, and prices need to be accessible, 

and, unfortunately, a lot of conventional-grown 

stuff doesn't incorporate those external costs, 

so they're not seen. So I don't know quite how 

to answer it, but I think we just have to all do 

our best, you know?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Question from Amy 

and then Kim, and then I've got one.

MEMBER BRUCH: Thank you so much. I 

am so happy to just meet all of you personally. 

This is quite a treat and pleasure. And just one 

comment, I've just been really reflecting on the 

sense of family, both with our Board and our 

community. And when I think of farming, it's a 

big family operation that I'm a part of which is 

exciting, and I often try to think about and 

balance how to hold on to my family traditions 

and my family history all while trying to be 

innovative and adaptable just so I can continue 
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my farming operation to the next generation.

So we've kind of talked about a little 

bit of the past and some of the technical 

challenges. I'm just curious from your 

perspective on kind of the present and the future 

on some of -- I'll just entitle them social 

challenges right now which is exciting. We have 

the transition initiative delivering some needed 

funds to our community. We have terms such as 

climate smart-ag, regenerative ag, et cetera. 

How do we as a program continue to be a leader, 

share the good things that are happening, and 

where do we need to go from here? I'm just 

curious from your perspective.

MR. RICE: I mean, yeah I was just 

thinking -- and this sort of relates I guess to 

the last one, too, of just -- you have this label 

that is trusted, the -- and kind of on Steve's 

point of like rooting it in -- rooting your work 

in OFPA to sort of shape what that looks like. 

And I'm not answering your question. Give me 
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another minute to think about it here.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Could I try to 

rephrase it a little bit, Amy? Oh, yeah. Go 

ahead.

MR. ELA: I think my last year on the 

Board, now I keep, you know, it's so easy to get 

in the weeds. You know, does this material check 

the boxes? Does it meet human health? Does it 

meet this? Does it meet that? And I think I'm 

becoming more higher level again and coming back 

to organic principles. And, you know, they're a 

little mushy sometimes, but, you know, really 

coming back is like does this fit what I think 

organic should be?

And so rooted in OFPA, but taking the 

higher level, philosophical approach, we're still 

an organic label that's based on principle, not

practice. And so I'd like to root myself back 

in that. Does this -- in my gut, does this feel 

like a good idea?

And so I just -- I guess that's -- so 
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I get excited about climate smart. Like, yeah, 

I am a climate smart grower. You know, this is 

part of my ethos of when I make decision on my 

farm, yes. And so some of these things I get 

really -- it's like, yeah, thank you for 

recognizing that, or it should be recognized 

because that is who I am.

And so those -- that's, you know, I 

think the climate side of things and the 

resiliency of are really important, and that I 

like seeing that. So go ahead.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kim, go ahead.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Okay. I'm going to 

hopefully give you guys a little bit of a slam 

dunk here. We'll see. As I look across this 

room, once Rick finishes out the last part of 

this semester, there's five of us that you guys 

nursed along our first couple of years, and I 

feel like -- and then it was expressed when we 

first -- because we had the opportunity to meet 

in D.C. before everything just completely shut 
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down, and that little bit of time was so valuable.

But that learning curve was like flat, 

like I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know 

what I'm doing. And then, oh, my gosh, here is 

the roller coaster because there is no other 

option.

So whoever the lucky ticket is that 

gets to fill this role and be coddled by 14 people 

for two years before we start falling off like 

flies, this circle -- I guess where I'm going is 

from a mentorship standpoint, what advice can you 

give us in mentoring other Board members on --

even though we're in this time period where one 

lucky golden person is going to get two years of, 

you know, more experience. But I do kind of, you 

know, Javier, Allison, Dilip, Liz, and Carolyn's 

group, you guys are going to have so many new 

people coming in.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: It was a quartet.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: I'm so sorry.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No Carolyn.
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MEMBER HUSEMAN: Yes, it was. I had 

the four and the five. I'm so sorry. I actually 

had you bundled for the minutes, so I'm sorry. 

But so -- okay. So, again then, we've had -- we 

have four people that will be just the 

cornerstone to the group with a lot of new faces.

So any mentorship advice that you have 

to bring people up to speed, not on their 

expertise and what they bring to the Board, but 

just how to, you know, manage in the forum that 

we are in?

MR. RICE: I think it was really great 

when we did have that opportunity to be together 

in D.C. And we gave in a day and a half or 

however much time we had, I feel like we focused 

a lot on sort of how we relate to the industry, 

to USDA, and kind of about -- very much about 

process and sunsets. And it was just -- I mean 

it's a lot of information.

And I remember, call you out -- not 

call you out, Wood. But like you made a very 
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good point after that day and a half, he's like 

this is all well and good, and I kind of get this 

sort of idea of what we're here for, but what's 

my job? Like what am I supposed to do? Or what 

is it -- because we spend all this time talking 

about the sort of nitty-gritty.

And I think you have to strike that 

balance between like what the big picture is, but 

it is actually what -- what's the -- I think the 

detail helps in that process to figure out just 

your role. It isn't a great deal about the 

material review, but there's so much more of it. 

I think spending the -- taking the time to just 

explain the process I guess would be the best 

advice because there's a lot of it -- if you 

haven't been coming to meetings on your own, is 

-- it's overwhelming.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We'll go to -- oh, 

go ahead, Rick. And then Kyla. That's all 

right.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay. So I know 
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all of you people. And we all worked on human 

capital. That was, you know, seeing Scott down 

there. What do you think about -- I mean what 

do we need? Looking back now, how would it have 

helped you? Do we need people do you think to 

help review literature? You know, how is that 

really going to play out in reality?

And I think everyone agrees it's a 

challenging position. It takes time. And where 

are the guidelines? How far can people go? So 

I'm just curious from your, you know, you've all 

been on the Board, what did you think would have 

really helped you? Steve?

MR. ELA: More coffee. I think it's 

really individual. I think, you know, on, you 

know, when I was working on ammonia extracts, 

somebody helped with literature, you know, 

additional literature reviews, so like just 

finding the articles. I mean even if I could say 

this is the article I want to read, get it for 

me, that would have really helped me.
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I see other people writing -- or I 

mean I think we all have our skill sets and we 

have our weaknesses, and that is highly variable 

depending on the person. So, you know, I don't 

think there's a thing that -- so, yeah. But I 

think in the human capital side, you know, what 

I really hope -- there's a lot of day-to-day 

sunsets, and I mean you've been going -- you 

zoomed through them today because they're not all 

that controversial. One took longer yesterday 

because it was more controversial.

I mean I hope for all of you as Board 

members that somewhere in your tenure of being on 

the Board, you get at least one topic that you 

feel like makes a real difference. And not to 

say these other things don't make a difference, 

they make huge differences. You know, the little 

sunsets do make differences.

But I hope you get a time to something 

that you feel like, wow, that was cool, you know, 

I got to make my impact on a movement. And, you 
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know, I don't know what that will be, and it may 

be some of the things that Jesse brought up so. 

But, you know, that's my, you know, among the 

mundane parts, you get to have the excitement of 

something cool.

MR. BUIE: You know, also we need to 

go back to this basic person that we don't know 

what that -- here's a new person coming to this 

Board, what is that person, what is that those 

characteristics I think is what you're talking 

about. And it has to be an individual who first 

understands the organic situation fully and be 

focused on making sure that whatever they do, 

that they're going to, you know, they're going to 

work in compliance with what the mission is.

And that basic person, whether it's in 

environmental whatever, I think that's what --

when we get these different areas is where we 

started to come up with differing, divergent 

ideas on different things that in the end, we 

have to bring it back and focus on this -- the 
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task that we are trying to do.

So that basic person needs to be 

someone who is, I guess you want to say, open 

minded and has the ability to work with 

everybody. And then from that, you can take that 

person and kind of mold them into what you want 

to do once you get them into a committee because 

of the process that we have.

You know, I went back to saying that 

the way this organization works, you're going to 

get an opportunity to present your position fully 

and to try to convince people, you know, to go 

your way. And I think that's the key to making 

this thing happen.

But it starts off with that basic 

person who knows how to go and get the knowledge 

that -- to defend their position. And then bring 

it back to deal with everybody else and try to 

work with them to, you know, to come up with a 

decision that needs to be made.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Kyla, go ahead.
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MEMBER SMITH: Hi, everybody. Thanks 

for being here with us today, and for being in 

the hot seat. This has sort of been asked, but 

I was thinking about it from a different 

perspective.

A lot of times, you know, being on a 

Board, it's not in a public setting, right? So 

it's behind closed doors and you get to have your 

debate. And then it really healthy Board gets 

to walk out the door and speak with one voice on 

the decision that was made. How do we do that 

here when the debate is public? How do we like 

leave the issue at the table and be healthy and 

successful in our communities?

MR. ELA: I'll just say that -- well, 

two things. One, is in a -- and I'll speak very -

- from my own very personal views here, but like 

with NOSB support, and I know one of the things 

was to include other people on the subcommittee 

calls, and I personally valued that it was only 

NOSB members on the calls because I think it 
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allowed people to speak maybe counter to even 

their own beliefs sometimes. But to explore and 

not have any fear of repercussion, you know, 

nobody -- and then, you know, to write it up.

And then for the whole Board to debate 

it publicly, I mean I really believe in 

transparency, I think there's this -- you do need 

a chance to have things that you can just 

brainstorm and not have any backlash on.

But then, ultimately, you have the 

tough decision and you still say you're a person. 

I disagree with you, but you're still a person. 

And so walk out the door of like, you know, I 

enjoyed being on this Board because of the people 

and because of meeting people. You know, that 

was the highlight. You know, the topics were 

cool, but the people were the biggest thing, so 

that to me is you're going to fight like hell and 

then walk out and have a beer.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's go to 

Allison. Oh, sorry, do you want to jump on that. 
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Allison, go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. Asa 

already touched on this a little bit, but I'm 

wondering reflecting back on your time on the 

Board and who you tended to hear from, and who 

you didn't hear from and the reasons that you may 

not have heard from a wider array of 

stakeholders, I'm interested in your thoughts on 

how we can help more people see themselves in 

organic both from a producer and consumer point 

of view, and what steps this Board could take to 

proactively invite more people in.

MR. BRADMAN: Do you mean invite more 

people onto the Board or into the whole process?

MEMBER JOHNSON: Into the organic 

community.

MR. BRADMAN: Yeah. Okay. That's a 

different -- so were you also asking about how 

communications between the community and the 

Board occur?

MEMBER JOHNSON: What structures or 
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processes we might use to make sure that we're 

hearing from a wider range of people, and helping 

a wider range of people see organic as relevant 

and important for them to engage with?

MR. BRADMAN: Right. I'm going to 

first comment narrowly, and then maybe more 

broadly. The narrow part is more about, you 

know, who communicates with the Board. I mean 

public comments are crucial. I also and, you 

know, try to make a point to reach out to people, 

too. And, you know, even across the spectrum, 

you know, and even people who disagree with me.

I do that in other settings, too. I 

have lunch with people from the American 

Chemistry Council, and it was kind of like, whoa, 

what are you doing at my table? And I was kind 

of like what am I doing here.

But, you know, I think that's really 

important because there are some people who it's 

their job to reach out to you, and then there's 

other people who, you know, that's not their job 
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and or something they're even thinking about. So 

that's where I think it's really important to 

facilitate dialogue and reach out to people.

You know, we're not -- the Board -- I 

was on the Board for the state of California, and 

it was much more restrictive in terms of 

potential conflict of interest issues. And the 

way I understand the Board is that, you know, we 

represent constituencies, and we can reach out to 

constituencies. And I think that's important to 

help foster engagement and not just the 

traditional advocacy, or trade, or other 

organizations, but to go beyond that. So I think 

that's really important.

And then, you know, I do think the use 

of these electronic formats have been, you know, 

have increased accessibility. I know there's 

been complaints about the timing of the meetings 

because of farming cycles and, you know, I think 

more use of that is -- not to -- I think inperson meetings are important, but I think the 
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virtual public comments, and maybe there's even 

other formats to increase exchange and that might 

also increase accessibility.

MR. BUIE: And also, you know, there 

is a big emphasis on getting minorities involved 

in organic. And I have been to many sessions, 

and I'm going to say again in this session, it's 

a multifaceted issue that we know we want to do, 

how do you do it is the big issue. And like I 

said, being, I guess, the number one example of 

who we're talking about, there has got to be a 

re-educating of people to understand farming, the 

hard work and all of that.

And from my perspective, that's 

something that I've attempted to try to do. And 

it's not an easy process, but I'm not slacking 

off one bit because I really understand some of 

the issues and some of the misunderstandings that 

we have out there. And what needs to happen is 

we really, at the college level, the programs 

just need to be developed where you can really 
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realistically target the motivating factors that 

make people want to get into farming. We're not 

doing that.

When I look -- when I look -- I'm going 

to be honest, and everybody wants to be 

politically correct, and we tiptoe around a lot 

of things. I've learned I still need the tip 

toe. When I look at the universities, and I just 

say universities, when I look at the programs 

that are there, it's -- the farming is an 

academic discussion. You don't get out into the 

dirt and the real issues.

And the people that are -- that come 

to the conferences and everything are talking 

this high-level stuff, and it's not getting to 

people who want to go out there and work the rows 

and make the things happen. That's the problem, 

you know that's the problem I see. And how we, 

you know how we correct that is an ongoing 

process.

But I know that what we're doing at 
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the college level in many instances is strictly 

academic farming, and the people who need to be 

getting the background knowledge are not getting 

it. But you're writing a lot of grants, and on 

and on and on. But you're not developing --

you're not encouraging folks to want to get out 

there and get their hands dirty. That's one of 

the problems right now, and I'll just leave it at 

that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Do you have one, 

Kyla?

MEMBER SMITH: Yeah. I had one more. 

How did you all approach balancing your own 

opinions on a particular topic versus 

representing sort of the seat that you are 

sitting in?

MR. RICE: I mean I would struggle 

with that a little bit, but not so much as maybe 

some others in their respective seats. Like with 

the -- the certifier seats seems on one hand a 

lot easier, and then, you know, on -- something 
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comes up and it's not easy at all.

And, you know, I remember having a 

particular material where the way I just came at 

it generally, because I feel like as -- just the 

job I have, the seat I was in, I wasn't 

necessarily coming with a dog in the fight. Our 

fight was more on like process and how you're 

going to evaluate something, and is it or isn't 

it.

And I don't remember what the material 

was, but it came finally to the Board and I 

presented it. And, you know, I just got the

question of like, well it doesn't -- I'm not 

hearing one way or the other here, and I was like, 

yeah. That I, you know, I turned to the comments 

and, you know, that's kind of what you have to do 

sometimes. But that was my kind of personal 

experience, and it wasn't -- didn't come at it 

with necessarily a position.

MR. ELA: And I would say -- I mean I 

can't sell you a used car because I'm going to 
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tell you the tailpipe's coming off and the 

transmission's full of sand. And so I mean the 

only way I could balance it was just to be me, 

and like, you know, I'm on the Board, yeah, I 

represent stakeholders. And sometimes I'm going 

to say something that probably would have 

benefited me, you know, I voted against things 

that would have helped me be -- that would have 

helped me control fire blight.

But it, you know, you just have to be 

you, and you're on the Board to be you and the 

vote you get. And do the right thing and, you 

know, if your stakeholders are mad at you, I guess 

they're mad at you.

MR. BUIE: You know, let me follow up. 

You're exactly right because when I came on the 

Board, there were organizations out there 

tracking the way we voted. And I don't know if 

that's still going on. But every vote you made, 

someone was out there tracking it. And if you 

didn't vote the way they wanted it voted, you'd 
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read about it a lot of times in the New York Times 

and places like that. Yeah.

And so one thing -- one interesting 

thing about me, I'm coming from Mississippi, a 

little farm in Mississippi, and for whatever 

reason I was labeled a corporate hack. Right. 

And I'm going like how, you know, how can that 

be? But that's how it was written up.

And I so I came to this meeting and 

here the article was in, I don't know, New York 

or someplace, that this corporate hack from 

Mississippi because the perception -- that was 

the perception of how they knew I was going to be 

voting on issues.

But it goes back to, in the final 

analysis, you're going to have to vote, you know, 

you vote the way you think is best for the 

organization. And if the people don't like it, 

then, you know, tough. So that's an issue I hope 

you don't have to deal with, but we did, so.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We have just a few 
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minutes to go here. Yeah, Dilip.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Well, this is just 

a comment, not a question. I think you have 

given us a very good information and advice. And 

we have a very good fellow Board members also. 

So I'm very confident. But, Jesse, you made a, 

you know, comment on the USDA folks and I thought 

I'll kind of just comment on that.

I would mostly agree with that. You 

said that USDA folks may be writing grants and 

all that, but when I'm sitting here, and this 

Board I think they have done a splendid job 

because if I am in my organic farm, nobody will 

recognize me because I am in shorts, I am bad 

shoes out on the tractor, and you will see, oh, 

this is a farmer. He's a student. I am serving 

on our Board writing grants and all that, that is 

a different thing.

And yesterday was a good example that 

whatever insight I bring to the Board, and 

yesterday as example, that this is from my 
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practical experience. Like on the farm, when I 

use plastic mulch on my Peppers or vegetables, I 

see the problem. Similarly, I see the issues 

what common farmers, organic farmers, minority 

whether, you know, all kinds, they experienced.

I talk to them in the workshops, and 

I bring that practical information and issues. 

And based on that, I want to make their decision, 

and that's what happened yesterday. So I would 

mostly agree, but a little bit here, my two cents 

in it. So thank you for that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, thank you. 

We are just up to the lunch hour. So really 

appreciate our fellow members joining us again.

(Applause.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'm going to get 

really used to these 90-minute lunches. So we're 

going to see you all back here at 1:30.

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 11:58 a.m. and resumed at 

1:38 p.m.)
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Let's chat about 

plastics. So we heard a lot of comments. So 

we're going to reconvene, and we're going to jump 

into additional business. So we have two things 

to discuss there, plastics, and the timing of the 

meeting for an update. Yes, Brian.

MEMBER CALDWELL: I would love to add 

at least one comment from me about annotation 

follow-ups.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah. Noted. 

Because we have no work agenda item, we have no 

direction, we really have nothing about plastics 

yet in the hopper, I'm going to set a timer for 

15 minutes. And whatever anybody wants to ask, 

or say, or chat about with plastics, now is our 

opportunity.

And as soon as Rick comes back, we're 

going to stop the conversation, conduct 

elections, and then we can pick it up again with 

whatever time we have remaining. So -- All 

right. Timer is -- who wants to go first and 
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then we'll start the timer? Okay. Amy, and then 

Wood.

MEMBER BRUCH: Perfect.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Game on. Go 

ahead, Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Okay. Well, I might 

need to go third then. This is just a 

clarification or a question. Currently, how I 

understand it, packaging, plastics and packaging 

are out of the purview of OFP. So maybe a 

question to Jenny. Just wondering, is there any 

potential thoughts on opening the scope of OFPA 

to include the final packaging pieces and 

regulation around them?

DR. TUCKER: So I think a good --

thank you for the question. A good reminder of 

the -- we call it NOP civics of who owns what. 

And so OFPA is owned by Congress. So, sadly, 

Jenny can't adjust OFPA and broaden OFPA.

Okay. Well, so given that, I think 

our -- this is a topic we had considered earlier 
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on a work agenda for the item for the Board, and 

had ended up withdrawing. It was a service 

specific one of could we consider -- it was BPA, 

bisphenol I guess. And so it was determined to 

be outside the scope of the Board at that time, 

so we cancelled that work agenda.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: But I --

DR. TUCKER: Does that answer the 

question or not? Let's iterate here since we're 

on open mic.

MEMBER BRUCH: Sure. I understand 

that the process for change, is that something I 

guess in the short term that either the program 

or -- inside the program, outside the program 

things will be a necessary work item just because 

I think it's really important, one, to the 

community, and two, there is just a lot of 

innovation with not the right composition of 

products happening in that area that could 

contaminate our nice, organic products.

DR. TUCKER: So I think in terms of 
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advocacy on broadening OFPA to have a broader 

class of issues, that is more of a farm bill 

conversation. At a program level, I really do 

believe in the federal system of separation of 

powers. So we don't at the program level 

advocate to Congress.

We get requests for technical 

assistance from Congress. And so if folks think 

something is important and talk to the 

administration -- different administrations 

handle this differently. So some 

administrations are very, very tightly connected 

with congressional processes, and others say 

that's Congress's job, we'll do whatever they 

want. And it can vary depending on a whole lot 

of factors.

At the program level, we are not 

advocates on how OFPA could change. We will 

provide technical assistance if Congress has 

questions as they're considering changes to OFPA. 

So what would this mean? What would need to 
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happen? What would be the process?

And I have calls with congressional 

staff when those questions come up, and I give 

them kind of the program sort of technical view. 

I'm not sure I'm still getting at what you're 

looking for here.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Well, let me jump 

in real quick. I think, Amy, your question is 

really kind of at the heart of why we're having 

this discussion right now. We here -- we are the 

depository for the hopes and ambitions of the 

community, and oftentimes we're just a poor fit 

in standards.

And so understanding what we can do 

and what we can't do is going to be a really 

crucial consideration for this discussion. So 

when folks say gets plastics out of food, 

understanding what is in our actual authority, 

what's in our jurisdiction, and what needs to go 

to Congress.

And so that question right there I 
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think I would pose to the community that if 

there's any work to be done on plastics, please 

read OFPA and tell us where in OFPA you would 

like us to act. Wood, please go ahead.

MEMBER TURNER: I'll try to keep it 

brief. And, again, I have a little bit of the 

same question of whether this is relevant to us 

or not, but I'm just going to make a couple of 

comments.

One is I think it was hard to separate 

out this conversation from the BBMF conversation 

this week. For me, as I said, I feel like we had 

an absurd choice to make on that material, and I 

think as I pointed out, we recycle about 5 percent 

of our plastics in this country. And that's 

disgusting, and we should be embarrassed about 

that not only as just a Board, as individuals, as 

an organic community, as all agriculture, as all 

society. It's ridiculous.

And to me it's a policy and regulatory 

failure on so many levels. We've let what's 
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happened to our recycling markets just go the way 

the wind blows and, you know, we're happy. We 

were happy sending our materials overseas until 

we couldn't do that anymore. And it's all broken 

down.

And so I just -- I do think we have 

to -- if there's anything we can do from a policy 

perspective to do anything to stimulate what's 

happening in terms of the recovery of materials. 

I mean ag-plastics should be captured. We should 

be figuring out any way possible to get them back 

into durable materials that are being used in our 

society. And if there's any rule that exists in 

the structure in any form, I'd love to know about 

it.

Secondly, I'm really concerned on the 

packaging front. I think there's also a problem 

on the packaging front because we are going to 

continue to see ourselves asking the question 

over and over and over again because I see 

organizations like mine and others desperately 
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trying to move away from plastic packaging.

It is so much more expensive to move 

into non-plastic packaging, and it will continue 

to be more expensive. And it is not something 

that the consumer, broadly defined, is willing to 

absorb. And as a result, it's not maybe 

something that the producer, broadly defined, is 

going to be willing to absorb. And there's got 

to be some other intervention here from a policy 

and regulatory standpoint to make something like 

that happen.

So I really firmly believe those are 

two issues that, if there's anything we can do, 

and I'm sort of asking the question but also 

knowing that it's probably beyond our reach, but 

I just wanted to put those on the record.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: To our panel's 

point this morning, though, that relying on our 

community is kind of the best part of being and 

this Board. We have so many smart people who 

have deep understanding of both regulatory and 
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political levers that we can use, that I would 

put it on our community to let us know. Mindee, 

you want to go ahead?

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: It's not really 

OFPA or a Board consideration, but at Good Earth 

we did a big initiative with our consumers where 

we educated in all the places that they could 

eliminate plastic from their purchasing. And we 

reduced our supply packaging to the Good Earth by 

more than a ton in a year because consumers could 

choose not to put a red bell pepper in a plastic 

bag on the way home.

And I think that initiative has come 

a long way, and I think there is a lot of power 

there for the consumer. And, honestly, I've 

tried to hold myself accountable to only buying 

berries in this amazing packaging that Javier has 

been working on for a while. And so I think 

there's a lot of work and a lot of encouragement 

for me on that, you know, how long ago was it 

that we weren't all carrying these?
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And so for me I think sometimes taking 

the pressure out of one place, and I think putting 

societal pressure on agriculture to solve the 

plastic problem seems like my last priority in a 

way because it's easier to solve it in other 

places. And so I just like to reframe sometimes 

is a little bit encouraging for me when I feel a 

lot of pressure around an issue.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, could I 

call on you to -- and no need to -- totally good 

the pass it on. But I think you had a really 

great point about there's a certain limit to the 

private market response to plastics. If it's not 

going to be forced upon everybody, are we going 

to see any movement?

So I didn't know if you had any 

thoughts on, you know, if we're thinking about a 

regulatory mainframe of how to adjust plastics, 

you live in -- you with Javier live in sort of a 

more plastic-culture world, anything that strikes 

you?
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MEMBER D'AMORE: I'm a little bit at 

a loss as to the question. And in terms of our 

discussions before, my point that I was trying to 

make is the organic versus the conventional. If 

that's what you're talking about --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Sure.

MEMBER D'AMORE: -- then I'd be happy 

to continue. Yeah. You know, I've lived in the 

world of great uses of these materials. And to 

Wood's comment a moment ago, the -- I'm not sure 

that the alternative to plastic as a base 

material is that more expensive. But it surely 

is way more expensive in terms of the 

manufacture.

There's -- and that then is velocity. 

That is somebody taking the time, and I mean 

plastic comes off at a horrendous speed, and it 

comes off the end of the line exactly what you 

want. And that's the difference -- that's the 

difference that we have when we have some of these 

discussions.
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And so, you know, when we were having the 

great debate yesterday, which I enjoyed 

immensely, the point I was trying to make is if 

we don't get combined volumes that are greater 

than the 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 percent of everything that 

we're seeing out there, I just don't believe 

there's going to be the incentive of the 

producers to give what, you know, to essentially 

work against themselves, work against something 

that they're already producing. And so I think 

they'll resist that until there's much more at 

stake or much more upside than 5 percent of what's 

on the ground today. And if that's what you 

meant, then --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah.

MEMBER D'AMORE: -- thank you. Thank 

you very much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I think that's a 

great point.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yeah. It's a 
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good point. Some of the manufacturers in the Bay 

Area have some collaborative work going on where 

you see like a tea company developing some more 

sustainable packaging, and then getting other tea 

companies to come in so that they can get to the 

velocity for sustainability in their bottom line.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Brian, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. Thanks. 

This is a really important topic, and I'm really 

glad that our stakeholders made us pay attention 

to it. I think that it would go a long way to 

really charging up consumer confidence in the 

integrity of organic if we were able to make 

progress in reducing plastics, single-use 

plastics. Not talking about, you know, 

anybody's, you know, plastic fuel lines in there, 

you know, engines and stuff like that.

And in New York State, a law went 

through that was -- disallowed plastic grocery 

bags, and I thought it was going to be a big deal. 
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It was easy. It was really not. I mean I don't 

think the supermarkets liked it, but everybody 

else, it was easy. So I think we should really 

look at OFPA and the definition of Handling, and 

whatever way we might be able to find an approach 

to dealing with this topic.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Absolutely. Now 

we have about three minutes left, folks. Anyone 

else want to jump in? Javier, please go ahead.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Thank you, Brian. I 

think -- I am one of those farmers that has the 

desire to make sure that the use of plastic is 

less and less as time goes by. But it is really, 

really expensive. I'm doing it as a -- because 

I believe that, you know, having that lots of 

straws and lots of plastic clam shells, and lots 

of plastic usage not being recycled, it's 

creating a big issue. I see it in our 

agricultural communities.

So until something, if it has to be a 

regulatory level, that forces some of the larger 
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users to make a change, will make some sort of 

advance. We do have lots of community that 

support when I came up with a clamshell that it's 

not plastic. My God. I'm getting reporters, 

I'm getting all kinds of people wanting to talk 

to me. But when I told him that it cost five 

times more than a ten cent clamshell because this 

is, you know, 45 cents, they go, wow. Well no 

wonder people are not using it.

So we have to get, you know, some sort 

of a change at a higher level that forces others 

to make this change. And in the end, the 

customer is the one that can make that happen. 

We, as growers, we want to do -- as smaller 

growers, independently owned farms have the 

desire of making these changes. But, 

unfortunately, it is really hard unless we have 

a community support.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

have about a minute left. Let's call it there, 

folks. Rick, you're back. We still needed you. 
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Not even close. Okay. We're going to move into 

elections, or back into the agenda. So we're 

going to start with officer elections. We have 

a couple of slides here. Yeah. After elections, 

we're going to talk about the timing of the NOSB 

meeting update.

So we have three officers. We have 

chair, vice chair, and secretary. Any NSOB 

member is eligible for consideration to any 

officer position, and folks may self-nominate or 

be nominated by another member of the NOSB. 

Should the chair, vice chair, or secretary resign 

or fail to serve the full term, the Executive 

Subcommittee shall appoint an interim officer. 

And that interim officer shall serve in the 

capacity until the next regularly scheduled 

meeting of the NOSB, during which an election 

will be held to fill the remainder of the term.

Members may serve more than one term 

in any officer position. Oh, no more plastics. 

Officers shall be elected for one-year terms by 
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majority vote at the fall NOSB meeting. Newly 

elected officers will assume their positions at 

the conclusion of the fall NOSB meeting and 

assume their responsibilities thereof at that 

time. Outgoing and NOSB officers will assist the 

incoming officers with the transition into their 

new roles to be completed no later than January 

23rd of the following year.

So we need nominations, and so we're 

going to -- we have three separate elections, 

chair, vice chair, and secretary. And I'll ask 

Kyla, do we do these as a slate? Okay. 

Nominate, vote? Nominate, vote?

Okay. Voting will be by secret ballot 

immediately following nominations for each 

office. Ballots for the officers will be cast 

in the following order, we're going to start with 

chair, then go to vice chair, and then secretary. 

Ballots will be counted for one office, and the 

secretary will announce the tally before the next 

office is open for nominations.
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Secretary and vice chair will prepare 

and distribute the ballots, then collect them 

after each vote. Secretary will tally the votes, 

and the chair will verify the results. And I 

think it's actually going to be Rick is going to 

tally the votes, and then the chair will validate 

the results verify the results.

The first nominee to receive a 

majority of votes will be elected. If no nominee 

receives the majority of votes, the nominee with 

the least votes will be eliminated and a revote 

will occur with the remaining candidates. This 

process will be repeated until a nominee obtains 

a majority.

In the event of a tie, there will be 

a revote until a nominee obtains a majority. All 

nominees will be included in the revote. Votes 

will remain confidential, and ballots will be 

disposed of by the chair or secretary. A nominee 

will -- may withdraw at their discretion at any 

time. In the event of only one nominee for 
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office, the vote may be by acclamation.

Good to go? All right. So we're 

going to start with chair. Does everyone have a 

card, one of the green cards? Okay. So call for 

nominations. Amy?

MEMBER BRUCH: Yes. I would be happy 

to nominate our current chair for an encore term.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you very 

much.

PARTICIPANT: Do we need a second?

MEMBER ZAMORA: I will second that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. For 

the nomination? All right. Yes. Please go 

ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: As a new member, 

please. So do we have the consent of the 

existing officers, like chair, vice chair, and 

secretary, that are they willing to continue for 

the next term? That would be helpful to us too, 

or --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah. So when 
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someone is nominated, they can say yes or no. So 

I would say yes, I would be willing to serve 

another term. And then we can do that with each 

role. But very good question.

All right. Any other nominations for 

the role of chair? All right. I think we don't 

need a vote.

(Applause.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

everybody. Really excited for the work we're 

doing and the work we get to do this next year. 

Moving on to the position of vice chair, do we 

have a nomination for the position of vice chair? 

Kyla?

MEMBER SMITH: I'll nominate Mindee, 

our current vice chair.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you. 

Sure. I'm willing --

MEMBER PETREY: Logan will second.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan seconded. 
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Everyone's going to second that. I'm seconding 

that, too. Any other nominees or any other 

nominations for the role of vice chair? Okay.

(Applause.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: For the role of 

secretary, Wood, please go ahead.

MEMBER TURNER: So I think 

particularly as we're thinking about sort of the 

seniority of this -- of the leadership group, and 

I think this -- the fun part about this meeting 

being able to see everybody and see how everybody 

works on this Board, I've just been really 

excited about somebody that I'd like to nominate. 

And just, again, to get the conversation going 

about this person because I think I would love to 

see that person in a leadership role in the 

future, if not now. I'd like to nominate Amy as 

secretary.

MEMBER BRUCH: That's very 

thoughtful. Thank you, Wood.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: If we need a 
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second, I'm definitely seconding that. Any other 

nominees for secretary? Jerry?

MEMBER D'AMORE: For all the same 

reasons articulated so well that we just heard, 

I'd like to nominate Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: I appreciate it. I'm 

going to decline. But thanks, Jerry.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Not at all.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

nominees for the position of secretary? Carolyn?

MEMBER DIMITRI: I'll nominate Kyla 

so we can have the same runoff that we had last 

year.

MEMBER SMITH: I'm actually going to 

decline as well. I'm going to pass the torch.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. Any 

other nominees for secretary?

MEMBER D'AMORE: Excuse me. Where 

are we right now?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: We are at Amy is 

nominated, one nominee.
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MEMBER NANDWANI: In that case, can I 

second because there are no other nominees?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Okay. Dilip's 

like keep moving, folks.

MEMBER D'AMORE: I may have blinked. 

What happened with Carolyn just now?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Carolyn nominated 

Kyla. Kyla declined the nomination.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay. I then would 

like to make a nomination, and that would be 

Carolyn.

MEMBER DIMITRI: No thank you. I 

really don't have any leadership capacity, 

seriously.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Yeah. I could 

strike out if I kept on going.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. If 

there are no other nominees for the position of 

secretary, Amy.

(Applause.)

MEMBER GREENWOOD: But I didn't get a 
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chance to count any votes.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I was going to 

say. All right.

DR. TUCKER: Hey, Nate, before we 

move to the next step.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Please go ahead.

DR. TUCKER: Usually the program 

congratulates. And since we're in person, I'm 

going to both thank and congratulate our outgoing 

and incoming chair. This is a USDA Organic 

Challenge Coin. So, Nate, you get a USDA 

Challenge Coin. And then, Mindee, also outgoing 

and incoming vice chair, there's your Challenge 

Coin. And then as a big thank you to Kyla before 

being secretary and doing a beautiful job, you 

also get a Challenge Coin.

(Applause.)

DR. TUCKER: And the program looks 

forward to working with Amy. You get a challenge 

coin next year assuming we're in person. So 

you'll -- something to look forward to there. 
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But thank you, this has been a delightful Board 

to work with this year, and a delightful 

leadership team. So appreciate the 

collaboration and look forward to working with 

you this year.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Likewise. Thank 

you. So in conclusion of elections, we look to 

our itinerary. Any other questions or comments 

going forward? Okay. We'll go back to other 

business, and, Brian, you had a question about 

annotations that you wanted to bring up.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Well, I have a 

suggestion, and that is that I think I understand 

why we can't vote on annotations at the same time 

that we consider the actual sunset material and 

the way it's written because it would confuse the 

issue.

But what I would love to have happen 

is that if we're going to consider annotations, 

it's going to take more time -- it's going to add 

more time to what we're doing. And I think the 
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least amount of time it would add to it is if we 

had a separate section after the sunsets were 

done for annotations on those materials that were 

covered in these sunsets that meeting because 

it's fresh in our minds. We know, you know, 

exactly what the issues are and what's suggested, 

and I think we could do it quickly.

If we take the annotations up in a 

separate year, we have to go back to zero and 

recalibrate, and everything. So I just want 

people to think about that and maybe we can move 

forward with that.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Be careful, 

you're going to get nominated for a leadership 

position, Brian.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: That's right. I was 

just thinking that. Is that like another -- not 

like a subcommittee, but like a chair to the 

annotation, like a corraller. 

MEMBER HUSEMAN: I nominate Brian.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Corraller of 
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annotations. I love that.

MEMBER TURNER: Is that a procedural? 

Like is what Brian suggesting -- I mean is this 

a discussion or --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yeah.

MEMBER TURNER: Like is that -- like 

that sounds like such a genius idea. I mean is 

that -- like is that impossible to do? I mean 

how do we --

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Did you see the 

public comment that the materials chair should 

take up the business of annotations? I mean 

Kyla's doing a great job on it already, too. So 

there's a lot of good suggestion and wheels on 

it, right?

MEMBER SMITH: I mean I've been 

keeping my own sort of -- tracking my own thing 

with Handling. But I do think that we have the 

community who has given us a list, and I think we 

just never had had like that comprehensive like 

list before. But I like the idea of doing it 
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sort of simultaneously. So I think we can try 

to, you know, meld these two sort of thoughts 

together.

MEMBER TURNER: Yeah. I think it's 

great. I mean I guess I just feel like Brian's 

point about the time delay and sort of the --

it's almost like duplicating the work almost 

through another cycle. I think that's --

MEMBER HUSEMAN: Well, another thing 

to consider is we have a five-year term, right? 

So you review an item, and then it gets put to 

the back burner, and then you have a new person 

come on that is next to -- like when it comes 

back up for a sunset, and they're, you know, might 

not have the knowledge from the last time that it 

was at sunset. And so you do get this running, 

well, the previous Board discussed annotation and 

now we're here again and we still haven't 

discussed annotation.

MEMBER SMITH: I mean we were talking 

about this already like as a work agenda item 
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like prior to the -- in Handling, right? And so 

it was sort of like, oh, great, the community is 

thinking about this, too. And it had been 

suggested to sort of put this out as sort of a 

discussion document to get them all, collect them 

all up, right? And so I think we have a start 

to that, and I think that we can, yeah, sort of 

meld those two things together.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. I think it's a 

really good idea, Brian. I was kind of thinking 

as I was presenting my sunset on humic acid that 

there was a need to have the annotation on that. 

And I thought it could just do that right away. 

Like you said, it's fresh in your mind. I think 

that's a really good idea.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Jerry, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER D'AMORE: I'm sorry. I'm 

still confused, and I'm on the same line as the 

questioning of Wood. I mean, obviously, when 

we're in the moment, we cannot mess with an 
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annotation, right? Then it's done, voted. Then 

you're suggesting we do what?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: No suggestion.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Just I think to 

Brian's question as to how can we most 

efficiently be able to tackle --

MEMBER D'AMORE: Right.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: -- annotations.

MEMBER D'AMORE: So, procedurally, 

that's -- and so now I'm just being redundant, 

and I apologize. But procedurally, right after 

it's all done, we could engage in a new 

annotation?

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, Mindee.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Yeah. I mean I 

Brian's suggestions amazing and I think the next 

year could also be a really good idea. But I 

think right now the project is figuring out where 

we can house a database, for lack of a better 

word, of the suggested annotation changes. And 
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we had a public comment suggest materials, and it 

just so happened that Kyla was already working 

really hard on the Handling list.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Right.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: And so if we 

engage, it could be that we could house it in 

materials as a discussion document, which is just 

a request for all the ones that the community 

knows are -- should be considered.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: And then I think 

we'll just go from there.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Okay.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Find an 

efficient way to keep this relevant.

MEMBER D'AMORE: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Alison, please go 

ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: I wonder if we want 

to have some sort of consistent pattern where 

we're asking for input on annotations if we're 
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trying to build that into the rotation because, 

otherwise, there's sort of a bias towards things 

that have been brought up at some point, rather 

than an opportunity for anyone who might want to 

weigh in.

So I was trying to think of like what 

time of the year is the right time to do that. 

We'll review the agenda for next year now, so 

that's noticed about what materials are coming 

up. So I don't know if we want to hear in advance 

of the spring meeting so that we could discuss 

them then, and then vote in the fall or, you know, 

like what cadence would be right to start 

gathering that input ahead of time.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Rick, go ahead.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I'm just thinking 

mechanically, when we go through these at the 

meeting, we raise the issue. And we say, oh, 

that's good, and everybody's sort of up to speed. 

I think the next place would be to bring them 

back to the various committees, capture them, and 
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get them on the agenda.

So as everyone says, Brian says, so 

then it's fresh in our mind. Maybe we do those 

not the next meeting after the meeting, but very 

soon, get them on a list so we can talk about 

them. And then like we do with the research 

priorities, bundle them up into a unit and then 

get them onto a proposal.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Go ahead, Kyla.

MEMBER SMITH: I mean I think it could 

be a discussion document in the spring, right, 

for the slate of materials that we're going to be 

voting on in the fall. And then you collect all 

of the ideas, and then you just put forth the 

proposal for the fall meeting I think is the most 

efficient way.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any other 

thoughts on annotation changes and management? 

All right. We'll continue this conversation 

throughout the semester.

Meeting timing. So this is, 
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unfortunately, an update for people who I think 

are obviously not in the room right now. But for 

those who may be listening online, we have 

received consistent comments from the community 

that the meeting timing is not optimal for 

everyone. And we hear that loud and clear.

The question of is it particularly not 

optimal for farmers is one that we take 

seriously, and we want to make sure that we are 

considering all of the options. And so in spring 

of 2022, we heard, again loud and clear, and I 

think Wood helped elevate this question of is 

there an alternative? Do we meet in April and 

October for no good reason, just that it started 

and we never stopped it.

And so we very kindly tasked Michelle 

with saying why. Why are we doing it this way? 

And I think we have a couple of slides. Do we? 

One side? Okay. No worries if not. But 

Michelle -- there we go. So Michelle did just a 

fantastic job saying what does every month hold.
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So we have some rules to work by. We 

have to always be six months apart. So to make 

sure that we don't have a lopsided work schedule 

where we'd have less than even on both sides, we 

have to be six months apart. So as we work 

through and look at the different months, we 

always have to think about the corresponding 

month.

So in September, it's the end of the 

federal fiscal year where no money can be spent, 

everything kind of stands still. And so 

September is out. That means correspondingly, 

March is out. And as you look at this slide and 

we kind of work through it, there are pieces to 

each of these months that are not April and 

October that seem to preclude being a good fit 

for being a meeting month.

And so when we looked at January, we 

are -- we still don't know who this new member 

who's going to be taking Rick's seat is, and we 

always work our way kind of landing in the spring 
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before the person is either announced or 

definitely trained. So if we were to meet in 

January, there's a chance that we'd be meeting 

before anybody was trained for the new folks. So 

that kind of kicks that out. Correspondingly 

then, July would be out.

So you all see this slide, snap a 

photo of it, take it back to your communities and 

say Michelle did a bang-up job on trying to figure 

out what is the alternative. And I promised the 

commenter, I'm like there are so many times 

better than these two times for me. 

Correspondingly, for everyone on the Board, 

there's probably a better two months.

But overall, we polled the whole Board 

on other options and we still came back to October 

and April as the two months that are the most 

imperfect perfect fit.

And thinking about how we keep access 

to the Board open, I was really stoked -- I feel 

like -- and I don't have numbers behind this, but
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I feel like we have been getting only more and 

more farmers engaging in the Board process with 

it being a virtual comment. That folks are 

phoning in from their tractors, they're calling 

in on Zoom. And that's exciting.

So not everyone can travel, which is 

definitely makes sense, it does seem like the 

more we can get folks to engage in the other 

means, the other avenues to engage with the 

Board, the better off we're going to be hearing 

from everybody. Any questions or tack-ons? 

Thank you, Mindee.

This does not imply a policy change 

about in-person comments. I'm not trying to jump 

the gun here. As we had mentioned in the opening 

to this meeting, we are in a hybrid format because 

we're testing it out. This is the first time 

we're back from COVID. We wanted to make sure 

that there would be a chance that we would be 

able to get through a meeting, even if we did 

have some amount of shutdown with a resurgence of 
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COVID.

And it's gone really well. We've 

lucked out. Everybody has I think done well 

showing up and us meeting together. And we're 

excited to continue meeting more in person, and 

keeping both options for in person commenting and 

for virtual plummeting on the table. Brian, 

please go ahead.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Yeah. I think OFPA 

did a great job of recruiting farmers for the 

virtual comments this year.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Hear, hear.

MEMBER CALDWELL: That's the sense 

that I got. And so I really strongly suggest 

that the other organizations do the same thing.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I just wish I 

could make that a banner across the whole room. 

People, bring your farmers, it's a three-minute 

phone call, into the meeting. This is not that 

hard. And so excited to see more and more 

farmers engaged. I think there's a lot of
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organizations who have put out the call, but it 

is a really good question.

We fielded questions throughout the 

meeting about who is giving what input, and I 

think there are just -- there is -- it's patchy. 

We have inconsistent representation from all 

stakeholders. And I think farmers are getting 

better, but they're one that we don't hear that 

much from. And it's always exciting to figure 

out ways to get more farmer comments. Anything 

to add to this update?

All right. So next on the NOSB work 

agenda and materials update. So for the 

subcommittee chairs, anything that's not on this 

list and you find it to be top of mind, we can 

talk about it now, and think about what the next 

the upcoming semester looks like. We good? 

Everyone see it? Thank you. Maybe a little 

slower. Go back one real quick and we can slowly 

scan it.

MS. ARSENAULT: Nate, do you want to 
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read through them or just --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I don't --

MS. ARSENAULT: -- let them sit on 

the --

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Should we? I was 

just thinking we can just sit on them.

MS. ARSENAULT: Either way. It's up 

to you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. All 

right. Let's start from the beginning. We have 

time, folks. We'll read them, if you could 

scroll back, Andrea. Thank you. So oversight 

improvement to deter fraud, modernization of 

organic traceability, minimum reporting 

requirements, that was a discussion document this 

last round.

Organic and climate-smart 

agriculture. Carbon dioxide as a petition for -

- oh, yeah. Let's see maybe -- so two CACS, and 

crops, we have carbon dioxide as a petition. 

Potassium sorbate. Alcohols, ethanol. And 
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alcohols, isopropanol. Those are all sunsets.

Continuing sunsets in crops, we have 

sodium carbonate, peroxyhydrates, newspaper or 

other recycled paper without glossy or colored 

inks. That will be an exciting one. Plastic 

mulch and covers. Aqueous potassium silicate. 

Elemental sulfur. Lime sulfur. And hydrated 

lime. All in crops.

Continuing crop sunsets, we have 

liquid fish products, sulfuric acid, ethylene 

gas, microcrystalline cheese wax, potassium 

chloride. And then that concludes crops.

Moving on to Handling, a petition of 

rye pollen extracts, L malic acid 

reclassification, ion exchange filtration 

resins. Next slide. Thank you.

All sunsets in Handling, we have 

calcium carbonate, flavors, gellan gum, highacyl. Oxygen, potassium chloride, alginates, 

calcium hydroxide, and ethylene.

Also in Handling as sunsets, we've got 
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glycerides, mono and di; magnesium stearate; 

phosphoric acid; potassium carbonate; sulfur 

dioxide; xanthan gum; and 

fructooligosaccharides. Those are all sunsets 

in Handling as well as gums, water-extracted 

only, Arabic, guar, locust bean and carob bean. 

Next slide. Oh sorry. You're ahead of me.

Handling still. Lecithin, tamarind 

seed gum, tragacanth gum are in there. And now -

- shush you two. Gosh. Trying to phonetically 

work here through these.

Livestock. So these are all sunsets 

that are going to be in the Livestock 

Subcommittee. We have alcohols, ethanol. 

Alcohols, isopropanol. Aspirin. Biologics. 

Vaccines. And electrolytes. And the last page, 

also sunsets in livestock. We have glycerin, 

phosphoric acid, lime hydrated, and mineral oil.

In materials, we're going to continue 

working on excluded methods, and then the NOSB 

2022 research priorities. And PDS will have PPM 
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updates. I think that should be 2023, research 

priorities in materials. And then our PPM 

updates.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: If someone wants 

to look for these online, they can search AMS 

NOSB work agenda.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Any questions? 

Any thoughts from subcommittee chairs or anyone 

else? All right. Wow, we are flying.

Last, but not least, we have one of 

the -- one of the -- I think one of the greatest 

minds in our community leaving us, and I am --

greatest humble minds, but also someone who 

brought really a deep insight that was so 

welcoming and so fair that we talked about tough 

stuff, we had survived a pandemic asking Rick 

what do you think, and never being one to give 

anything but the most even-keel advice. And I 

think that that is something that we can all 

aspire to. So thank you, Rick for your service. 

And the floor is yours if you'd like to make an 
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apple joke real quick.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Well, no. I see 

them over there. Thanks, Steve. No, I yeah. 

Yeah, I'm going to miss that. But I still have 

his phone number. I think -- and listening to 

the alumni, I think the best thing about being on 

the Board is working with the Board members. I 

mean you form some great relationships, you get 

to hear lots of different views from people, you 

know, which has been wonderful. I think that's 

the strength of it.

And you feel, at least I did, like we 

were doing something. It may not be enough, and 

I think that's part of what bothers people. You 

know, you want to do the big thing, but we have 

constraints, and we recognize that. But I think 

we're all helping the industry and each other.

So I've enjoyed it. If you talk to 

the people that have left the Board, they'll say, 

yeah, and I've enjoyed leaving the Board because 

of the time commitment. And I had mentioned that 
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before. When I received the call about going on 

the Board, they say, well, you know, it's a lot 

of work. And so, yeah, sure, you know, a lot of 

work. And then you realize it's a lot of work.

And it takes a long time for the new 

Board members. You come with expertise, but you 

don't have the expertise of the system. And I 

think that's what's really hard. Like what 

happens to this article? You know, where does 

it go? Well, no, we don't vote on it now. This 

is discussion. And it takes -- it really does 

take time to feel like you're more efficient. 

And I think that's part of the learning process. 

But once you get over that maybe in your four, 

you get it.

So, no, I appreciate it. Very 

impressed with the program people. And I think, 

you know, it's wonderful to work, and everybody's 

comments on bureaucrats. I've been to 

bureaucrat. I've worked in the county system. 

But everybody is so dedicated. I mean everyone 
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that I've worked with is really willing to help. 

And I think that's amazing. You know, 

bureaucrats get kicked around. I've been kicked 

around in the newspapers and other places, but do 

the hard work day in and day out, and I think 

that's terrific too.

So, overall, great experience. 

Anybody in the audience that's interested, should 

apply. So with that, I thank you all for 

recognizing me. That's great.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. I'm 

going to hand it off to Jenny.

(Applause.)

MEMBER GREENWOOD: So I actually 

don't like attention.

DR. TUCKER: So, speaking of 

bureaucrats here, I will now jump in with my 

farewell to Rick on behalf of the program. Rick 

was actually the first appointee that I was 

involved in as deputy administrator. So I'd been 

with the program beforehand, but it's actually 
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very poignant to me that Rick was appointed to 

the Board actually a month before I got my job as 

deputy administrator. And so, too, I kind of 

experienced that journey alongside Rick being on 

the Board, has been really poignant.

One of the things I love about Rick 

that I really want to kind of highlight again for

the community, is, you know, when I called Rick 

to have the appointee conversation, oh, it's a 

lot of work, during one of the very early 

conversations that I had with Rick. Rick brought 

up essentially the same question he brought up on 

Tuesday. So what about a conversation about 

GMO's? And, you know what, for the last -- for 

his entire term, he has been that voice of raising 

that question in a very professional, very 

collaborative, I'm just going to ask the 

question.

I do want to remind this group, and I 

think it's happened with a few items, that these 

15 people represent, you know, more than $60 
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billion. So when one person is asking a question 

on the Board, guess what, they represent a bunch 

of people out there in the world that are asking 

that question.

And so while it is easy to, oh, that's 

just one Board member and they always bring that 

up, do you remember these are the voices of the 

folks out in the world on all sides of all issues. 

And so anytime there's one voice or one vote, do 

remember that that person represents a bunch of 

folks and need to be taken seriously. And Rick 

has always done that collaborative discussion in 

an incredibly thoughtful way. And I appreciate 

that because that is part of the process.

It is part of the diversity as Steve 

said, it doesn't always have to be a 15 to zero 

vote. It is okay to have dissent. It's okay to 

have this agreement, and then go out for a beer 

afterwards. And I think that Rick has really 

embodied that spirit.

So we're going to give Rick a plaque. 
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I'm going to come over for that. And then 

we're -- the apples are from -- as you guessed, 

from Steve, so. I'm just the delivery person 

here. You want to carry the apples up?

(Off-microphone comments.)

MEMBER GREENWOOD: But you realize 

he's doing that as a marketing tool, so. The 

apple guys are very -- they're tricky.

DR. TUCKER: We're going to do a 

joint plot mic on purpose. It says, "Certificate 

of appreciation presented to James R Greenwood 

for five years of dedicated service as a member 

of the USDA's National Organic Standards Board 

2018 to 2023." So here you go.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

DR. TUCKER: Adam, you want to come 

up and just take a picture as long as we're here? 

Okay. There we go.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: Okay.

(Applause.)

DR. TUCKER: Thank you.
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MEMBER GREENWOOD: I won't sue. And 

I might also mention I did serve previously for 

three years on the AMS Hass Avocado Board, so I'm 

actually closing out eight years of service to 

USDA. And so I think that's more than some of 

the people who work for USDA actually do. So I 

think it's time for me to move on. But I 

certainly appreciate everybody's comments, so 

thank you very much.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: All right. We 

are down to other business and closing remarks. 

I wouldn't mind, since we do have a little time, 

to just go around once more and give a reflection 

that I just -- I love giving Jerry the side eye, 

you know? But this is our opportunity, and I 

appreciate everyone who is still here because we 

are the hardcore folks. So much love to you all 

and to everyone who stayed online throughout the 

whole meeting.

We are the depository for a lot of 

hopes and dreams of what we want to see 
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agriculture to be, and it's an incredible 

opportunity to be able to meet like this and dream 

together. And I think when we talk about it in 

the terms of like attapulgite or BBMF, maybe we 

lose vision of how good this work is. But I 

think five years goes fast. I'm shocked that I'm 

halfway through, six meetings done, four to go.

And there's so much work to do, and I 

think we're all doing it. And I think really 

embodied that sense of how do we just grind away 

in the best way we can in order to make what 

difference we can.

So I won't start with Jerry, but I'll 

start with Carolyn, if you just want to give a 

reflection and where -- yeah, where you see us 

having come from in a good -- what you see as 

being a good reflection of this meeting and where 

you'd like to see this next year go.

MEMBER DIMITRI: I will say it's quite 

ironic that the two end points of the tables are 

people who really hate doing this kind of thing. 
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This has been an incredible experience to be here 

with everyone. That's all I can muster at this 

moment, and let's just keep at it.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

MEMBER DIMITRI: Thank you, everyone.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Wood.

MEMBER TURNER: My turn? I should 

have said this the other day, but -- because I 

already had them at the time, but Javier's 

strawberries have just reinvigorated my love for 

that piece of fruit.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Yes.

MEMBER TURNER: I mean I just -- I've 

sort of like drifted away from strawberries over 

the years and I just love that fruit. So what 

you brought this week was fantastic. And I just 

wanted to say, just thinking about Javier, and 

thinking about Liz, and thinking about Brian, and 

sort of, you know, small farmers, I mean I've 

said many times, like I am so focused on this on 

what organic can do to feed more people, and it's 
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why I'm here. I really believe that we can do 

this in a responsible way at scale.

I want the people that I grew up with 

in eastern North Carolina to be able to have these 

same conversations we can have about organic in 

Berkeley, and Brooklyn and Boulder, and other 

parts of this country that -- where this is sort 

of considered to be just sort of everybody eats 

organic. I don't find that to be the case where 

I grew up and it bothers me every single day.

And part of it I think is -- part of 

it is my job to help bring scale to organic. But 

part of it is the job of Liz, and Javier, and 

Brian, and people who are small farmers who are 

fighting the fight at a local level and trying to 

figure out how to bring that kind of land 

management, that land stewardship spirit to 

organic in a way that people can see it locally.

And I really -- I think it's important 

for us to all to realize that both sides -- both 

ends of that spectrum are so essential to what 
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we're trying to do, and this just being together 

reminded me of that.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you. Liz.

MEMBER GRAZNAK: I just want to say 

thank you to everybody on the Board for being so 

kind, and welcoming, and helpful. Yeah. And 

I'm really looking forward to working with you in 

the next five years. Four years.

MEMBER HUSEMAN: This is, minus Rick, 

everybody else's first time in person -- and 

minus Logan. But we get Logan back in the 

spring. So what I'm hopeful for coming away from 

this -- first off, I feel robbed of the last two 

years of not knowing what I didn't know, right?

I mean sitting on the other side in 

Pittsburgh was one thing, but I think this 

experience now, it does, it makes me feel like 

the people that are -- the year before or the 

year -- in the next two years, that you guys get 

so -- you guys get more of this, so there's a 

little bit of jealousy there.
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But over the next two years, we have 

this very solidified group who's -- the mechanics 

of what we're doing should come up to the same 

level. And we had the opportunity to take this 

amount of resources and minds, and really harness 

that and do some good work over the next couple 

of years. So I'll quit wallowing about what I 

didn't get the last two years, and I'm really, 

really looking forward to what we get to do the 

next two.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I echo that 

sentiment full heartedly. Mindee, please go 

ahead.

VICE CHAIR JEFFERY: Thank you. 

Since I started off with this idea of presenting 

the good, I wanted to reflect on -- and I don't 

mean this in any way about age, but we had our 

elder states folks here talking to us about what 

their experience was like. I'm so glad that 

Scott, and Jesse, and Asa, and Steve made the 

trip. And I am very grateful for our Logan's 
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babies, and Amy's baby, and everybody else's kids

that give up time so that we can all be here.

And one of the indicators of a healthy 

community that I've learned about is that when 

you have a broad spectrum of age ranges showing 

up in the community, you have a healthy 

community. So I'm -- I see the organic community 

as showing us our health because we're all here 

in our many ranges of ages. And so thank you for 

sharing all of that with us, and I appreciate you 

coming to the organic table.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you.

MEMBER SMITH: I'm where I started at 

really. Like what I said when I started that I 

was just so grateful to be here in person and get 

to meet all of you and, you know, didn't realize 

how much I loved each and every one of you and 

your little Zoom faces. And it just got so much 

deeper here this week.

And the beautiful thing about the 

organic community is I do feel that like with the 
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rest of my certifier friends, which we get to 

sort of meet each other at these little meetings 

and at the certifier training, and it's like so 

like fun and a big party. And so just to be able 

to be all together again, it's just made my heart 

so happy.

And I -- yeah, just -- I was just, 

yeah, reflecting on the former Board member panel 

and that sentiment about like, we're all people, 

we're all doing the best we can, and having that 

hard debate, and then just trying to carry out 

the goodness and into our community. And leave 

the debate at the table. So I'm going to keep 

thinking about how to do that in a successful 

way. And game one of the World Series is 

tomorrow, go Phillies.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Kyla. 

Amy.

MEMBER BRUCH: Yeah. Thanks, Nate. 

Thanks, everybody. Just for me, I just feel just 

energized, jazzed up. This is kind of my first 
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time along with everybody else to, you know, be 

out in the public after COVID and really, you 

know, just being able to row the boat in the 

direction altogether.

This is an important community. I 

think there's strength in being present and 

interacting with everybody. So I just feel real 

energized. I'm ready to roll up my sleeves and 

get to work on our next mission and our agenda. 

And I think we have a lot of momentum, you know, 

that we've developed to carry us into the next 

semester at a pretty high level.

So I'm just excited for where we all 

were able to calibrate on common goals, and 

looking forward to kind of the next few years. 

So thank you, everybody.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Amy.

MEMBER GREENWOOD: I've probably 

already had enough microphone time. But I think 

one of the other things that I've always enjoyed 

about the meeting, and I'm in the environmental 
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seat, but I happen to be an organic grower for 15 

years, and it's always fun for me to talk to other 

organic growers and see what their challenges are 

and how similar they are.

I think I have it pretty easy in 

comparison to the people that grow row crops and 

things like that. But still the same challenges, 

water, labor, my fertilizer costs have gone up 16 

percent in this last year. And a lot of 

challenges. And I have a grove that's growing 

in transitions, so selling it conventional, but 

paying for organic. But talking to the other 

Board members and listening to them, and also on 

the phone calls, hearing the same challenges 

always been -- I mean it's just fascinating.

And the last thing is, I'm impressed 

that anyone can make a living farming. I mean 

it really -- I think I'll be on the street with 

a shopping cart if that was my only source of 

income some years. I mean it's, you know, some 

years there's pestilence, and some years there's 
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wind, and fire, and everything else. So I just 

enjoy the camaraderie of the Board.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you for 

that. Dilip, please go ahead.

MEMBER NANDWANI: Wow. A lot of 

things and good things, and everybody has said 

already. So I was thinking hearing that what 

else can I add. But let me just say first that 

this is my first meeting in person, and I 

thoroughly enjoyed.

And the past three days, I think I 

expressed a few times already that how grateful 

I am not only for NOSB, NOP, and USDA. Of course, 

Secretary Vilsack accepted nomination. But more 

than that also that fellow Board members, the 

encouragement, the support, the enthusiasm I saw 

the past three days, that's incredible. I can't 

explain that.

When I heard about this, and I had 

some idea, but when I started on this position, 

and then I didn't realize that where I'm -- and 
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how much time consuming it's going to be like, I 

think most of us, we agree on that. But having 

spending after like a few months, and especially 

this meeting, I think I shared my thoughts with 

others also I guess, that this time is worth 

spending. It is worth.

I was growing vegetables in my 

backyard as a teenage student, and I came a long 

way, you know, all the way to my university 

organic farm. And when I'm at my farm, I am not 

only student, and I am also farmer. And I'm here 

today also what I'm learning there and trying to 

help that community where I'm serving.

So I have telling myself also that do 

the best you can. You have the full support from 

very good people. And the waves I have received 

in past three days, I can't express that. So I 

totally enjoyed meeting.

And more than that, I would also like 

to say that the audience I see that the public 

comments I read, although it's difficult to read 
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5,000 to 6,000 comments, but I kind of scanned 

that. And as I mentioned this morning OFRF, the 

agenda, I tried to like see what's coming, and 

then I downloaded their agenda also, and I 

learned all about this.

So that is also very fantastic, the 

presentations, the amount of knowledge delivered 

by experts here. It's not only us that we are 

sitting on this side table, but more experts we 

see on the other side and in the community who we 

serve and we hear those comments. And based on 

that, we also try to deliver what are their 

expectations.

Lastly, I'll just say that I'm very 

blessed, lucky. Rick is sitting next to me past 

three days, so don't think that he's going away. 

All three days, the knowledge and expertise he 

has shared with me, I will carry on this. Don't 

worry about that. Thank you.

MEMBER CALDWELL: Well, I've been to 

a lot of farm meetings, a lot of organic farm 
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meetings over the years, and this one has 

definitely affected me more than any other one by 

far. And it has made me much more hopeful for 

the future than I was even a few days ago before 

this meeting. So I really thank you all for 

that.

I want to say that as I met other Board 

members who I thought were really pretty amazing 

before meeting them, they're just like so much 

more amazing than I realized. It's just -- it's 

been something else.

And the last thing I'll say is I 

learned so much, and unfortunately, at my age, 

you know, when I learn one new thing, it knocks 

four out of the bottom, and I'm really worried 

about what fell out. But we'll have to just see 

how that goes. But thank you, all, for 

everything and -- from the bottom of my heart.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Brian. 

Well said. Alison, please go ahead.

MEMBER JOHNSON: Thank you. I'm 
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really struck by how much this feels like a 

homecoming. I started an organic at CCOF in 2007 

to 2012, and I'm just amazed at how many people 

are still here. A lot of folks have changed 

jobs, or, you know, moved among organizations, 

but it's the same core people with a deep 

expertise and commitment, and just a wealth of 

knowledge who are really driving this movement 

forward.

So I'm grateful to be in your company. 

And I think it's probably obvious from my 

comments, I'm also thinking about how we bring 

more people in and learn from what's been done 

and move into the next generation of organic. So 

I'm both grateful and feeling driven around that.

And I'll make one more plug. We just 

finally published this morning a report on the 

climate health and economic benefits of organic. 

This is a joint project between the Natural 

Resources Defense Council, the Swette Center at 

Arizona State University, and Californians for 
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Pesticide Reform.

So it goes into the latest science and 

hopefully lays out the case to support organic 

from any kind of value that drives you. And it 

has a policy agenda that sets us up for the farm 

bill, so I'm really looking forward to next year 

being here, talking about what we can do within 

OFPA, and then out there thinking about how we 

can get more resources for organic and continue 

to improve, so lots to do next year, I'm excited.

MEMBER ZAMORA: Ay caramba. I think 

everything has been said. Would hopefully, next 

time we meet in person, it'll be springtime, I'll 

bring some Chomlers (phonetic) and SweetAmbs that 

would be really, really even tasty. Right now 

strawberries are not tasting good based on my 

expectations.

I just want to thank you all. I am 

really blessed. I am part of this Board, and 

just a wealth of knowledge. And the family 

feeling that I get, it's incredible. I had a 
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great opportunity every time we -- whether it was 

luncheon or dinner, to talk to different Board 

members, and some of the outgoing Board members. 

This is just such a wealth of knowledge among 

this room that I think the organic community has 

and will benefit greatly in the next few years.

I'm so happy to see some youngsters 

like Nate, and, you know, that really have the 

heart to make something happen. That's hope for 

me. Just as Brian said, yeah, we're getting old. 

And so we need that enthusiasm, and we need the 

youth. you know, be part of this and keep it 

going forever. Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, 

Javier.

MEMBER D'AMORE: I have two gentlemen 

to my left who tried to take away the old guy 

card from me, but I am the old guy. So I'm going 

to go short to something that Mindee didn't say 

directly tonight, but it's a common theme of hers 

that I truly appreciate, and that's democracy at 
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work.

And for me it's -- I've seen a lot in 

my time. I was in Berlin when the wall went up. 

I was in Saudi Arabia during the Seven-day War. 

And you appreciate all that you see. I did. But 

bringing it to where I've been for the last five 

years and just observing mostly in isolation. 

I'm retired.

The NOSB came to me at the right time 

of my life when particularly when COVID hit and 

put me sort of into an introverted shell. I'm 

introverted by nature. Many people don't believe 

that, but I am seriously introverted by nature. 

And have had a chance to reflect upon the country 

that I was born in and that I love. And I was 

greatly distressed by a lot of what I saw.

Is it mass media? I don't know what 

it is. But the -- I don't know this country 

historically as divided as I see it. So I'm 

going to give this room, this body on both sides 

of the line there, my heartfelt thanks for 
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letting me see that emotion. And call on me 

first next time please.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Logan, are you 

there?

MEMBER PETREY: I am here. I'm 

sorry, the video is off because of bandwidth, and 

you know what, we can try. And I'm not trying 

to rub this in at all. So as Jerry said -- hello, 

we're going to try to behave. And so as Jerry 

said, NOSB came to him at the right time in his 

life. Let's just say after I got nominated and 

accepted, and then found out I was pregnant, I 

thought NOSB came at me at the completely wrong 

time of my life.

But it, you know, it has worked and 

I'm so glad that I didn't know what was going to 

happen because I would have turned it down. And 

you guys have allowed me, and she's kind of 

allowed me, to do the work to -- excuse me, it 

won't take long -- to do the work. And I'm glad

that I was still able to be on it, and you're 
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allowing me to do this. And probably, you know, 

with my son coming very, very soon, and, Amy I 

know is experiencing kind of the same things, and 

it is kind of tough sometimes. But anybody calls 

and says, look, let me help you anytime. And so 

the collaboration is real.

And also last night, and it happens 

every Board meeting cause, you know, I'm always 

part of the controversial topic and people who 

vote with me and don't throw it with me, will 

text me and call me and say, hey, good job, you 

know? And I think that's awesome, that's great. 

That keeps us, you know, standing firm in what we 

believe in and keep pushing that, but still being 

able to work appropriately.

So I appreciate all that, all the 

encouragement. It really does -- it really does 

help, you know, push through some of the 

workloads. So thank you, all, I'm terrible 

format, but I'll see you in the spring and I'm 

looking forward to it.
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CHAIR POWELL-PALM: Thank you, Logan.

PARTICIPANT: Good to see you.

MEMBER PETREY: Thank you.

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: I'd like to give 

a huge shout out, and we don't get the opportunity 

in this format to do it justice, but to everyone 

who joined us online, this community extends far 

beyond this room, and we are so grateful -- one 

more time hopefully -- so grateful for everyone 

who participates no matter where they're at, no 

matter if they can travel and still is so invested 

in this community.

I think I opened almost crying, and 

I'm going to close almost crying after hearing 

all of this. Thank you. But I think that 

there's -- to quote Ben Franklin, "There's no 

greater privilege than doing work that's worth 

doing." And I think when Kyla said everybody's 

still here four jobs later in the same room, it's 

because this is the work worth doing no matter 

how we get it done. And we all see the mountain 
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and are trying to pick different trails to get 

there.

But all of you, I am so grateful to 

be on your team and to be pulling together. And 

I think that is, for this team, for the program, 

for the greater community, we can all, again, 

fight it out and have a beer at the end of the 

day. And I think that that is so unique -- or a 

gin and tonic -- unique, and what we need when we 

-- as we move towards the world we all envision.

Jerry, I can't say it better than 

Jerry, but it is a -- it's a rough time in 

democracy. It's a rough time in politics. It 

is something that we read about everyday how are 

we all getting through this.

And I think as a young person in this 

country that this experience, these last three 

days, gave me an insight in how things could be, 

and the sort of political discourse and the sort 

of collaboration that we can realize.

And I think after being -- that rough 
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deciding vote last night on BBMF, went through a 

host of emotions, but then joined you all at the 

same mixer, and we were all ecstatic for the work. 

And I can only hope that one day we can really 

tell enough people how great this community is. 

And that -- all I can say is thank you for letting 

me be on your team.

(Applause.)

CHAIR POWELL-PALM: And with that, I 

hand it over to Dr. Jenny Tucker.

DR. TUCKER: And so it is my honor 

to close this meeting. I'd like to make just a 

couple of comments. I was riding down the 

elevator on my way to this final segment at the 

end of lunch, and I ran into somebody who's in 

the room, has been at a lot of these meetings.

And so I said open-endedly, how have 

you found the meeting? And he said, you know, I 

really have enjoyed the collaborative, 

celebratory nature of this meeting, and I really, 

really hope that it continues into the future.
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And so I think from everything you've 

just heard today from this entire group, I 

encourage you to bring this light and this 

collaboration, this celebration into the world 

with you as you exit. And so I hereby close the 

meeting on that note. And, Nate, you have the 

gavel, you're going to give it a final --

(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 

went off the record at 2:56 p.m.)